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那麼本次議程有邀請到考試院的秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告我們的業務概況及立法計畫．並備質詢那麼現在進行報告那麼由於考試院他們除了報告立法計畫之外"},{"start":1996.372,"end":1997.574,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":2017.06,"end":2046.312,"text":"總召集委員、各位委員、各位先進大家早安首先請代表考試院第13屆考試院的團隊向貴院表達由衷的感謝本屆考試院四年的任期已經邁入最後半年的階段即將在今年8月底來結束承蒙貴院對於各項考試院的業務跟法案的支持讓我們在過去三年半的時間完成了多項法案的編修包括我們院部的組織法、公務員服務法、保障法、典事法"},{"start":2046.752,"end":2049.155,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2070.057,"end":2084.417,"text":"考試及格證書電子化的政策也已經順利上路超過一年我們致力於讓國家考試政策更加符合現代社會的趨勢也更加符合新世代學習跟工作的模式這些作為未來都會繼續的來進行"},{"start":2086.58,"end":2108.235,"text":"今天感謝司法法制委員會安排了本院來報告業務概況及立法計畫過去這段時間,我們為了降低國考對年輕人投身公職的負擔及障礙持續地推動了公務人員考試檢科以及科目的調整也配合用人機關的需求,新增了一些專業類科或是偵辦考試或是調整考試規則,也開辦了離島特考"},{"start":2113.447,"end":2132.94,"text":"此外各項權序和基金管理、保障、訓練等業務本院都不斷地在精進跟強化包含了營造友善育兒職場、調高執行職務、意外傷亡的慰問金依照實務的需求來彈性化各機關、中央地方各機關組織的編制、調升了月退休金給予的金額"},{"start":2134.06,"end":2151.981,"text":"也建置了個人專戶制自主投資平台強化培訓業務的國際化以及落實數位治理等等．﹐詳細的內容也請各位委員參見考試院書面資料的說明以及我們二部議會的報告有關考試院本年度的立法計畫基於多數的有實效性的法案"},{"start":2152.441,"end":2180.522,"text":"已經由貴院在第10屆完成了三讀並且實施因此本會目前並沒有待審法案至於少數屆期不續審的案件本院將會參採各屆的意見重新檢視、討論再送請貴院來審議考試院會持續精進各項考選保訓的制度讓國家文官制度更貼近現代政府的需求切合國家發展的方向各項業務還請各位委員能夠給予支持並且不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":2183.783,"end":2187.026,"text":"好 接下來謝謝劉秘書長 接下來有請考選部許部長報告"},{"start":2197.28,"end":2216.927,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生、大家早感謝大院委員歷年來對考選部的支持本部在去年總計辦理22項國家考試經順利來舉辦完成除了連度例行的考試工作外為了因應少子化以及事不能"},{"start":2217.507,"end":2237.967,"text":"人才競爭多面向的一個考驗本部也在112年以強化人才招募加速推動國考數位轉型及測驗方式的一個精進發展為組織變革的三大政策目標也完成了組織法及相關法制的修正並就三項政策目標分別也認定的專案計畫正在爭取"},{"start":2241.43,"end":2269.39,"text":"經會補助及逐年逐步來推展落實各項細部的一個方案那第二為使公務人員的考試逐步朝向專業資能核心化、擇材條件友善化的目標來邁進也調整簡略高普考試、地方特考及原住民特考等都項考試的專業科目數及內涵以及整併地方特考無等考試和已出等考試來提升政府用人起宅的效益"},{"start":2270.31,"end":2290.121,"text":"第3為了協助解決離島政府常年用人困境本部跟離島三縣及人事主管機關也多次召開會議來審慎規劃徵社離島特考並議定至今年開始舉行今年度施政重點除了例行性舉行20項考試"},{"start":2293.763,"end":2313.272,"text":"之外也要再持續來推動以下的工作重點包括第一就是根據來推動國考數位轉型逐步擴增應試座位數並擴大電腦化測驗的一個適用範圍那今年也增加第一次跟第三次的護理師考試跟營養師考試類科採行電腦化測驗那也會積極來推動公務人員考試採用電腦化的測驗方式"},{"start":2321.536,"end":2344.632,"text":"逐步落實精進國家考試測驗技術發展及試題品質計畫執行,朝向測驗方法多元化、試題品質優質化、命題管道擴大化、數位資源精進化四大目標,來增進人才考用效能。擴大推動教考用、協力為國籍才能以豐富多元管道提升協資報考公職意願。"},{"start":2347.453,"end":2373.598,"text":"也積極在篆領規劃完成新世代的考選策略白皮書竟能引領未來人才考選發展經過更為完善的考選機制以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給予支持指教讓考選業務更真完善其他書面資料請各位委員參議謝謝好 謝謝許部長接下來有請銓敘部周部長報告"},{"start":2376.827,"end":2398.077,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生首先感謝各位委員歷來對全序部各項法案的支持跟協助緊究本部以及所屬公務人員退休輔助基金管理局的當前重要業務概況以及未來工作重點簡單書面報告如書面請參考接下來就口頭重點說明如下"},{"start":2398.957,"end":2416.562,"text":"第一部分就當前業務概況在研修人事法制方面包括我們依據11年宪判制第9號及考試院政策來研修公務人考機法對考機制度做結構性的調整目前正在遵循各界意見中第二研修公務人內用法第6條"},{"start":2418.102,"end":2438.641,"text":"來配合職務列等表跟組織法律適用的關係做規定並同職務列等表修正草案目前已經含成考試院審議中。第三,修正身簽法適應細則來落實公積原則來增訂各主管院訂定的深認評分標準表中"},{"start":2440.002,"end":2459.961,"text":"考試學歷及年資等三項配分比例不遇12%為原則已經考試院修正發布第4研修公務人員加擠給予辦法修正檢認非主管人員比照主管職務和給職務加擠的規定也已經會同行政院會嫌發布"},{"start":2460.962,"end":2481.572,"text":"第五是研修公共政務人員的退休撫恤法制徵定公務人員執行艱困任務因公撫恤是未成年子女在岸月加發撫恤金這也已經呈報考試院審議中那總計本部從12年9月到本年2月29日為止總共發布重要的規章有25萬"},{"start":2483.073,"end":2493.203,"text":"本年計畫研修的法規總共有16案另外,配合政府組織改造,行政院最後的47項組織法規都經過總統公布施行涉及到這些機關所屬的組織法規預計共166項,也正在審慎研議中"},{"start":2503.212,"end":2525.768,"text":"另外,辦理公務人員或移族定期退輔給予金額調整方案,我們在1月23日召開評估小組會議以後,獲自結論已調整4%,在3月8日會同行政院合訂。另外,設立個人專戶,到本年1月底為止,已有8,800多人參與,撥繳基金約4億9千多萬。"},{"start":2531.172,"end":2551.021,"text":"那未來的工作重點包括正在研修公務人員奉集法相關規定還有要研定新的契約人員人事條例以及研定聘任人員人事條例研修人事管理條例以及公務人員請假規則那持續辦理相關主改法案的這個"},{"start":2552.382,"end":2575.303,"text":"演繹的主編列等這些相關的案件另外也在辦理公交人保險年金給付金額調整的部分正在辦理中另外要修訂這個早期支領一次退休金生活困難退休公務人員發給年節照顧金的作業要點希望能夠明定定期檢討機制以上是重點簡單報告謝謝請各位委員指教"},{"start":2579.895,"end":2587.497,"text":"謝謝周部長的報告看來選舉部要相關的法規要修整的很多接下來有請保訓會郝主任委員報告主席各位委員各位女士先生今天非常的榮幸能夠奉邀來列席貴委員會來向各位委員來報告本會的業務概況那麼也要非常感謝大院的各位委員的支持跟指教使得我們本會的各項業務順利的一個推展"},{"start":2610.803,"end":2623.131,"text":"本會及所屬國家文官學院相關工作推動的重點作檢要報告首先在重要業務推薦的情況在保障業務的部分我們仍然持續地投訴來審議保障事件貫徹審議決定的效力並且積極推動保障業務資訊化的服務"},{"start":2629.335,"end":2646.152,"text":"另外,我們也定期來檢視各個機關、學校辦理公務人員應供射送輔助的情形。另外,我們也辦理了專案委託的研究,希望來建構友善的職場環境。而在培訓業務的部分,為了配合國家的重要政策,包含了建構安心懷孕、"},{"start":2648.074,"end":2677.163,"text":"有善生養環境的一個重要政策我們來修正的各項一個訓練的辦法而在課程的部分我們也積極的來鏈結當前國家的重要政策來提升相關的數位治理的一個素養那麼在英語的部分我們也積極來實施英語的一個課程而在健身檢訓練我們也首度導入了電腦的一個作答精進成績平衡的方式而在高階文官培訓的部分我們來積極精進高階文官培訓非要的方案"},{"start":2677.603,"end":2699.995,"text":"特別強化了跨域數位治理、國際移動力以及拓展宏觀的國際視野來培育高階的治理人才而在教材的部分我們積極來發展電子書來推動綠色學習的一個新里程我們包含陸續研編了公文撰作解析的電子書以及公務使用英語系列的教材的電子書另外我們也持續精進辦理英語相關的課程"},{"start":2701.656,"end":2712.221,"text":"提升文官的國際競爭力辦理了公務英語力UP訓練的系列課程那麼同時我們國家文官學院相關的英語培訓的一個內容我們也積極參與美國的國際最重要的國際培訓機關的比賽我們也會在2023年獲得了金牌的獎項"},{"start":2721.526,"end":2745.038,"text":"在未來的工作重點,我們仍然會持續精進考試錄取人員的訓練來提升考試錄取訓練的成效,同時會落實走動管理機制來持續關懷身障特考的受訓人員,並且創新來規劃高階文官的發展性訓練,以及來調整共通核心職能架構,以及因應人工智慧的發展來培育數位人才。"},{"start":2745.878,"end":2752.284,"text":"打造優質課程、賦予雙語文官並撥劃更高的中高階文官海外研習藍圖"},{"start":2762.159,"end":2788.235,"text":"好 謝謝好主任委員目前機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位黃總召國昌發言"},{"start":2813.278,"end":2825.398,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請劉秘書長好,有請劉秘書長周部長以及周部長以及郝主任委員郝主任委員,請三位就發言"},{"start":2841.697,"end":2869.073,"text":"秘書長、部長、主委三位其實都是我多年的好友以前見面都要稱學長、學姐還有老師不過我們今天在不同的位置上雖然屬於不同的黨派我們一起為國家做事情改革不能期待一觸可擊但更糟糕的是遠地踏步秘書長你認不認同"},{"start":2871.842,"end":2894.801,"text":"你還記不記得你最近看到這句話是什麼時候這句話是我寫的你們在2022年的時候去日本考察回來的報告我全部都拜讀完了我拜讀完了那個出國考察報告以後我看到這句話心裡感觸非常的深我這樣子說最近"},{"start":2896.199,"end":2915.107,"text":"我問了人事總署的人事長針對有關於消防弟兄他們安全防護的問題2018年他在這個會議是承諾我做的事他沒做到他那天很有擔當的道歉但事後"},{"start":2916.61,"end":2927.769,"text":"蔡總統6年以前的承諾我那天開完會議了以後我聽到行政院副院長鄭文燦說沒有跳票的問題去年已經開始演繹了"},{"start":2928.717,"end":2950.385,"text":"我聽了心非常的痛去年為什麼開始演繹不是因為6年前的近鵬大火是因為去年又有消防弟兄走了屏東我們又走了消防弟兄又開始演繹了過了6年以後原地踏步繼續持續的在演繹當中"},{"start":2952.25,"end":2971.366,"text":"有很多消防弟兄看到上一次質詢完鄭文燦的回憶非常的憤怒發訊息給我說10月12號他們被騙了被摸頭了答應了他沒有上凱道結果做完了新聞以後"},{"start":2972.833,"end":2987.854,"text":"消防人員權益促進會再度發函給行政院要求召開跨部會甚至跨院的會議11月3號通知發出去到現在已讀不回"},{"start":2990.307,"end":3004.818,"text":"我想這個辦法包括秘書長包括部長包括好處委都知道這絕對不是保訓會一個部會的責任我拜讀了在立法院裡面好幾次"},{"start":3005.899,"end":3028.857,"text":"保訓會不管是前任的主委還是現任的好主委在討論到這個辦法的時候你們所展現出來的立場、態度甚至有一些無奈我在書面報告當中我全部都看到了但我要跟大家交換一個心得我們在做這些事情的時候"},{"start":3030.086,"end":3059.208,"text":"我們一定要站在最基層的消防弟兄的立場去想這件事情他們看到的是一個又一個的弟兄走掉秘書長你知不知道10年了走了幾個消防弟兄我不清楚43位平均每一年我們要走4位我們要走4位站在他們的立場是大家都在踢皮球"},{"start":3060.509,"end":3062.712,"text":"他們看到的結果他們看到的結果是經過了這幾年這個安慰辦法完全沒有修正我現在具體的請教"},{"start":3077.133,"end":3090.374,"text":"安慰辦法到現在從他們的角度上面來看什麼都沒有修喔我請教一下好主委你們最近一次召開修安慰辦法的會議是什麼時候"},{"start":3091.691,"end":3117.31,"text":"我們事實上從去年的10月、12月一直到今年沒錯!對!對!對!好主委妳講到重點了去年10月去年10月2號的時候為什麼呂副主委建德要召開這個會議您知道嗎?我當然知道就是希望能夠積極來修改相關的安慰辦法在去年10月2號之前"},{"start":3118.566,"end":3126.289,"text":"應該說更早我們在108年109年110年110年我們都有召開香港好來我把序列全部整理出來了您剛所講的2019年的時候"},{"start":3132.625,"end":3156.761,"text":"那個時候的主委有提辦法來對他為什麼提因為那時候發生了桃園進棚的悲劇提了辦法以後提下來不斷的演繹我看到最後一次是2021年3月25號的時候人總把他們版本的安慰辦法提供了給保訓會因為保訓會2019年的辦法"},{"start":3159.423,"end":3181.665,"text":"跟後來你們所提出來的辦法兩份辦法我拜讀了你們整個內容的充實是在2021年人種提供了以後你們在那個條文的基礎上繼續去改但是我要給大家看的是什麼從2021年的3月到2023年的10月整整兩年半的時間"},{"start":3183.393,"end":3208.403,"text":"我剛剛請教好主委說10月2號為什麼發那個會議通知我當然知道那個會議的主題是安慰辦法10月的會議是9月的大火燒出來的我這樣說應該公平吧如果沒有9月的那一場大火或許根本不會有10月的這場會議"},{"start":3210.732,"end":3238.218,"text":"應該委員是說我們在過去都已經在積極要研擬這個安慰辦法的然後結果積極的研擬到今天改了沒有提到考試院也送到這個立法院來但是因為還有一些意見沒辦法整合所以這個就是我剛剛跟大家要交換的意見的地方我們永遠要站在最基層的立場去講每一個部會都可以講我們要研議我們要徵詢意見"},{"start":3240.063,"end":3267.594,"text":"但他們看到的是什麼6年過去了這個辦法原地踏步對但是原地踏步是因為後來覺得在對於消防人員他的職安的部分最終極的最專業的保障如果能夠納入在消防法裡面來做更完整的一個規劃其實是對消防人員的兄弟的一個權益更高的一個保障您最近跟消處會的朋友坐下來談是什麼時候"},{"start":3268.174,"end":3285.665,"text":"我們在10月、11月、12月跟到今年的1月我們都有跟消促會的朋友10月跟12月我們有邀請消促會的朋友還有警察公務員12月的那個會我也可以報告一下本來消防署是發函是發函22號開會結果聽到他們21號要去賴清德競選總部抗議了以後馬上發會議通知改成20號"},{"start":3295.914,"end":3310.299,"text":"所有的歷程對所有的歷程我全部所有的歷程我全部都掌握了好您最近一次好沒有沒有沒有您最近一次跟他們開會他們希望修改的是什麼"},{"start":3311.77,"end":3334.072,"text":"其實他們的態度有一些不一樣 最早是希望安慰辦法後來希望回歸治安法後來希望修保障法有些變化他們的態度為什麼會變他們一開始的確希望要修安慰辦法你如果是消防員等了6年原地踏步你還願意繼續等下去嗎"},{"start":3335.205,"end":3361.881,"text":"安慰辦法裡面因為他們要求要放入罰則那因為有罰則安慰辦法是法規命令的層級他必須要修保障法這個我都了解啦這個我都了解啊現在我的問題是我們是經過了6年以後是經過了6年以後我們研議了6年以後才知道原來安慰辦法沒有辦法解決問題嗎我現在直接的請教你齁因為我跟這些消防弟兄"},{"start":3362.915,"end":3391.769,"text":"我不是出了事啊才去問他們的意見從2018年開始我參加過他們非常多的活動經常在跟他們保持聯繫因為我覺得這些年輕人我很敬佩他們為了我們大家在第一線的火場射聲犯難結果走了這麼多弟兄我們所有相關的部會大家還在踢皮球原地踏步他們最希望的"},{"start":3392.785,"end":3409.916,"text":"是放到職安法理由很簡單規範最完整但對於規範到職安法的這一個看法可能從勞動部的觀點他們有不一樣的看法他們第二順位"},{"start":3412.065,"end":3428.543,"text":"是公務人員保障法要修法到最後不行的不行才會打算放到消防法我把順位跟主委妳說明一下現在我要問的事情就是他們現在在這三個機關之間"},{"start":3430.285,"end":3457.943,"text":"大家都在踢皮球大家都在踢皮球為什麼不是踢皮球我只問我只問一件事情主委您站在您站在您的立場你可能覺得不是踢皮球我再給您一個建議去跟這些消防弟兄談一談從他們的觀點他們會不會覺得是踢皮球我再次的強調今天這件事情我沒有說一定是保訓會的錯"},{"start":3459.244,"end":3485.439,"text":"我也沒有說一定是勞動部的錯我也沒有說一定是消防署的錯但是我希望今天站在這邊讓這一些發出了開會通知希望行政院召集跨部會的會議因為他們已經不知道怎麼辦了他們去找人種他們去找消防署他們去找勞動部大家給的答案"},{"start":3488.446,"end":3509.804,"text":"從他們的角度來講就是踢皮球從去年10月、12月我們都有召開跨院的協商會議也由行政院來主導因為這確實要涉及到他們參加過跨院的協商會議只有哪一場只有10月12號那一場嘛那另外警政署後來的相關會還有本會的相關會他們都有參與"},{"start":3511.332,"end":3531.038,"text":"他們11月3號的時候發了通知希望行政院召開跨院的會議來解決他們的問題我現在跟主委講的是以讀不回以讀不回現在針對那些修法的順序時間到了我只問最後一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":3532.518,"end":3539.12,"text":"現在消防組已經預計在3月下旬就會推出消防法的修法草案我最後我最後就問一個問題是如果他們希望放到現在"},{"start":3550.003,"end":3569.318,"text":"有關於勞動部他們的職安相關的保護犯法這個第一數位的選擇是不可得的話是不可得的話那第二個部分他們如果希望透過來強化公務人員保障法裡面對於他們的保障考試院的立場是什麼"},{"start":3569.909,"end":3570.67,"text":"我最後只講兩個問題為什麼我提到公務人員保障法"},{"start":3589.562,"end":3609.09,"text":"因為你去看安慰辦法那個安慰辦法裡面要保護的不是只有警消喔對 因為他是全部的公務人員對 是全體的公務人員全體的公務人員現在的安慰辦法以今天的角度來講我們先把警消放在外面先把警消放在外面從提供給全體公務人員"},{"start":3610.41,"end":3629.359,"text":"必要的安全防護的保障不管是公務人員保障法的授權規定夠不夠明確還是現在的安危辦法裡面它的規範夠不夠周全主委你認為現在的安危辦法即使把警消排除在外面有沒有修正的必要當然有修正必要"},{"start":3629.779,"end":3656.727,"text":"當然有修正的必要即使把警校排除在外面也有修正的必要然而監督檢查跟克責機制並且有高風險職務的專家然而到現在都還沒有修嗎我們已經有草案但是因為現在還在協調第二個部分你們的草案的關鍵是不是公務人員保障法對要有更明確的授權規定嗎如果要有罰則的話"},{"start":3660.922,"end":3669.03,"text":"在我現在從今天考試院所提出來的立法計畫有配合安慰法修正的公務人員保障法嗎?"},{"start":3670.092,"end":3688.12,"text":"因為我們還在等待消防法的一個立法的一個程序消防法你又提到警消的部分剛我已經跟你講問題很具體喔我們後續會有辦法做切割跟視訊的一個好那所以我最後只問一個問題這件事情考試院什麼時候可以做決定"},{"start":3689.195,"end":3703.874,"text":"我們就等消防法能夠順利立法完成之後我們就會啟動後續的修法的程序我這樣說好了啦主要是先針對安慰辦法就有關於警消的部分你們現在如果的立法計畫是要給消防法、消防署去做的話"},{"start":3704.955,"end":3722.377,"text":"那你剛也說了回來本來的安慰辦法他本來就有什麼本來就有修正的必要嘛現在的公務人員保障法你如果要讓安慰辦法修得更好你可能連動的公務人員保障法要一起修正是"},{"start":3722.958,"end":3738.867,"text":"我的看法沒有錯嘛那如果是這個樣子的話這一任的考試委員到今年8月31號就卸任了嘛到今年8月31號卸任了嘛我期待啦我期待我們一起努力在這個會期在他們離開以前"},{"start":3742.185,"end":3759.613,"text":"把應該給公務人員不管是好的保障法還是好的安慰辦法我們一起努力把它修正完好不好可以好 謝謝謝謝黃總召也謝謝三位秘書長跟院長和部長和那個主委"},{"start":3760.433,"end":3779.519,"text":"我想打火的弟兄姊妹為公共安全付出我們都肯定也希望我們各院共同努力不管是消防法、保障法還是安慰辦法我們儘速來促成給包括公務員在內的消防弟兄姊妹更多的保障謝謝黃委員接下來有請沈委員發會質詢"},{"start":3794.891,"end":3802.335,"text":"主席我們先有請這個全序部周部長有請周部長周部長好我想這個我們現在從這個去年的1月開始我們公布的這個公務人員個人專戶退休"},{"start":3821.606,"end":3846.881,"text":"這個之前撫恤辦法通過之後我們這個出任公務人員的部分我們從去年開始就採取新制了嘛對不對那到目前為止我想這個新制當然幾個重點啦當然就是他的這個確定提撥制啦個人帳戶啦自主投資平台等等這些部分到目前為止這個專務的規模這從"},{"start":3850.31,"end":3872.207,"text":"去年7月開始,到現在這個專戶的人數它的規模?到目前為止的人數大概有8800多人目前的規模大概到訓練體是4億多,當然這一個月有在增加大概多少?去年底是4億多,目前是6億了,1、2月就6億了"},{"start":3876.618,"end":3900.209,"text":"那這個我看你們的這個所規劃的時程啦齁這個從去年1月1號開始實施那這個公布啦齁去年7月1號開始實施啦齁7月1號開始實施之後我們事實上就有很多的配套必須要進行了嘛對不對這個包括這個應該他的這個收繳服務的金融機構啦他的這個這個投資顧問的專案機構"},{"start":3904.446,"end":3932.731,"text":"還有它的這個自主投資平台的建構等等這些問題的進度是不是能夠說明一下我們現在目前這個收繳服務的金融機構我們那個信託銀行是由中國信託銀行來辦理這個是公開徵求的嗎對是公開徵求的對不對那對然後投資顧問的顧問是野生投信那自主投資平台是由中國信託銀行來辦理現在投資目前的這個自主投資平台由中國信託來辦理"},{"start":3935.078,"end":3953.259,"text":"簽約了嗎?都簽約了。自主投資平台的部分簽約了嗎?都簽約了。簽約了齁?正在規劃中。正在規劃中齁。它的建制的時程,我們預計是要在明年的1月1號要正式上路嘛對不對?是。那現在目前建制的時程呢?現在已經3月了。"},{"start":3954.729,"end":3978.065,"text":"這個建制的時程是怎麼樣目前在什麼樣的階段積極辦理中當然是積極辦理中啊對啊基本上那個平台我們希望下半年可以開始測試下半年要開始測試是不是現在已經3月了下半年要開始測試事實上這個平台的測試它有很多的這個部分包括這個它的這個"},{"start":3979.704,"end":3984.246,"text":"這部分我們都應該要在下半年就開始進行測試了這是我們比較關心的部分那這個但是這個這個我目前我看到我們的這依照我們的這個公務人員個人專務"},{"start":4003.289,"end":4021.216,"text":"自的退俯除金投資選擇實施辦法這是你們自己制定的實施辦法裡面的第二條的第二款上面有說這個我們應該要訂定自主投資及代為投資運用的實施計畫請問實施計畫制定了沒有"},{"start":4024.407,"end":4045.422,"text":"目前在研擬 那我們會提到那個監理會這個你制定出來之後你還要報公務人員退府儲金監理會還要報他審議通過才可以實施實施之後他還必須要有一些宣導的時期所以你到目前為止制定完成了沒有"},{"start":4047.137,"end":4064.586,"text":"還沒 這個實施計畫還要 什麼時候要完成我們 這法定的 這不是法定 這你們自己 你們自己制定的也是大概年中的時候啦 配合那一個 年中中間的就是配合我們 年中的測試 配合這個測試之前你有沒有給一個具體的時間 我們總是定個目標"},{"start":4070.1,"end":4078.67,"text":"我想7月之前應該可以完成7月之前完成完成是你們出爐還是送審議委還是送監理會通過監理會通過在7月之前通過對好這個部分齁"},{"start":4086.24,"end":4101.607,"text":"我想這個在下半年測試之前我是覺得這是你們自己制定的啦制定要做這個實施計畫而且要報這個退府除金的監理會要報這個監理會來審議啦所以這個部分我希望說你們能夠掌握時間是"},{"start":4103.956,"end":4122.393,"text":"再來就是這個其實對這些初任公務人員的人來講這個是一個新的制度而且這個制度他需要很多的這個宣導的過程包括未來你們也提到說每年至少要一次投資組合投資標的組合的轉換作業這些轉換作業到底要怎麼做"},{"start":4123.314,"end":4148.566,"text":"這些都需要很多的宣導啦但是我看到你們目前的宣導作為其實真的是有點弱啦齁這個我看到的就是你們在網站上面有這個退府局的網站上面有一個宣導有兩支宣導短片兩支宣導短片他的我看點閱率大概1000人左右但是他訂閱人是6個人啦齁6個人這樣的宣導的"},{"start":4153.206,"end":4154.127,"text":"接下來我們請這個考選部考選部徐部長新徐部長"},{"start":4182.173,"end":4210.152,"text":"許副長,我看我們自己考選部的業務概況報告也有檢討這幾年我們的公務人員的報考報考數一路下滑到現在手上有的統計資料到111年的時候是報考剩下21萬人倒考的人更少有報名但是真的倒考的才掉到13萬人"},{"start":4212.693,"end":4236.622,"text":"這些齁這個你們當然我看到你們的檢討啦齁這個全球情勢變遷啦人工智慧時代啦少子化啦這個好像這個這個問題這個問題是好像不是你們的問題這個是全世界的問題啦齁但是我們總是要有所因應嘛有所因應的部分我看到你們說要推動公務員的招募措施裡面"},{"start":4237.83,"end":4261.417,"text":"我比較有興趣我看到你們這個113年考選業務概況報告第4頁到第7頁你們有說擴大推動公務人員招考的措施這你們有第一個你們說要幹什麼呢第一個要宣導第二個要這個透過藝文走廊第三個要考選集粹要座談召開座談這些都是"},{"start":4263.121,"end":4283.363,"text":"這些都是說實在事實在事的內容我不曉得說你這想要達到什麼樣的目的但是我特別注意裡面有一個比較特別的你們提到說你們要舉辦預備文官團離島文官領航體驗營你們認為這個是增加這個報考人數的一個重大的新的措施請問你們到目前為止辦了幾屆"},{"start":4285.889,"end":4303.738,"text":"兩次一次跟基隆市政府一次跟連江縣政府這個參加的人數有多少31位那目前已經有5位考上公務員兩個提示加起來31位了那你們的這個招募的對象大概就是在學的學生了是不是在學的學生"},{"start":4305.424,"end":4330.49,"text":"我看你們的這個業務報告裡面有提到有關這個這個精進措施推動文官團你們有進程計畫有中程計畫有遠程計畫對不對是中程計畫從什麼時候開始我講我們現在正在規劃我們希望有一個完整的一個方案這個部長你們你們這個這個"},{"start":4333.653,"end":4340.98,"text":"111年11月3號你們的這個重要業務報告裡面提到了你們的進程計畫是2021年到2024年終成計畫是2025年到2028年明年就要進入終成計畫了你們到目前為止辦兩次參加31人"},{"start":4354.583,"end":4372.036,"text":"我想我們參考新加坡事實上從高中跟大學新加坡政府就投入大量的資源在培育公務人才英國也有快速升遷的管道但是我們事實上是沒有這樣的機制所以我們希望某種程度來規劃這樣的一個機制"},{"start":4379.682,"end":4396.062,"text":"需要的就是這個啦部長我今天要跟你溝通就是這個你這辦這個預備文官團你如果沒有相關的機制相關的誘因讓他跟未來這個文官體制的職場的相關的銜接跟誘因你這個就跟參加戰鬥營參加暑假的營隊"},{"start":4398.223,"end":4398.523,"text":"但是部長但是"},{"start":4425.515,"end":4426.815,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4455.521,"end":4455.741,"text":"接下來有請羅委員至強質詢"},{"start":4491.109,"end":4516.619,"text":"主席有請劉秘書長、許部長、周部長好有請秘書長兩位部長我想先請教許部長根據那個考試院質疑統計公務人員報考人數"},{"start":4518.652,"end":4534.49,"text":"可以用報諜來看啦2012年大概是79.5萬人到2022年只剩下30多萬人10年的減幅達到56%那這背後的原因是什麼考試院有沒有研析過"},{"start":4537.297,"end":4562.638,"text":"跟委員報告當然有一部分是少子化的因素還有相關的一些誘因可能有減少外面的工作競爭的機會也多所以誰會來成為公務員事實上以前台大有一位博士生也做過研究一個就是能力、動機還有機會"},{"start":4568.701,"end":4590.451,"text":"我歸納三點,您剛剛講的嘛第一個就是說,基本上這個待遇問題嘛第二個就是少子化問題嘛第三個是外部的競爭問題嘛那我想要請教您齁那您都知道待遇,你剛剛也是講其中問題之一,對不對那我想請教您待遇出了什麼問題"},{"start":4592.774,"end":4594.915,"text":"我先講平均總體待遇,不講特別的領域"},{"start":4613.079,"end":4623.129,"text":"這個我們近30年軍公教的調薪的幅度民國80年是13%、83年8%、85年5%、90年3%、94年3%、100年3%民國107年3%、民國111年4%、113年4%所以從民國80年到現在開始就是整體漲幅大概41個百分點"},{"start":4636.983,"end":4648.798,"text":"那你知道我們近30年的勞工調薪的幅度從這個80年8月1號發布基本工資11040元到現在的條幅大概多少"},{"start":4650.745,"end":4675.461,"text":"到現在30年我跟您講大概22度上漲基本工資調漲近2.5倍那時薪上漲大概是將近3.6倍所以一個是41%一個漲了2.5倍一個漲了3.6倍這是您剛剛提到的事實上待遇的一個面向它其實不只待遇也包括說外部工作競爭機會"},{"start":4677.122,"end":4689.555,"text":"我也跟這個部長說我自己也是公務員出身我在以前考過高考那個時候是當時叫搶破頭那原因是當然一個很大的原因就是說覺得工作有保障"},{"start":4690.512,"end":4713.983,"text":"所以我們現在有提到之前我們也提到就是說是不是能夠考量到否則像公務員現在的月薪大概是三萬三千八百五十元那勞工基本工資大概是兩萬七千四百七十元雖然起薪當然還是高過於這個勞工底薪剛剛你也講到很多外部因素嘛包括整體福利待遇升遷限制薪資天花板"},{"start":4714.343,"end":4714.804,"text":"退休後的年金改革,退休保障受影響"},{"start":4729.947,"end":4759.2,"text":"是不是能夠盡量努力的促成跟人事總書在質詢也無言過就是說盡量讓所謂的調薪能夠跟隨我們的物價然後能夠不要再是所謂的那種隨性施捨式的調薪那應該是要有一個調薪的機制不要說每次都是要看今天政府高興調薪不高興調薪那每次調薪都要吵架一次你認不認同說基本上我們應該讓這個薪資調整法制化這件事情"},{"start":4760.862,"end":4784.751,"text":"基本上這些方面我想政府有在努力那我想也認同那去年事實上像高考三級去年出任的是大概四萬九那今年已經調到五萬三所以基本上我覺得不是所謂的那個調一次性或集性式的要一個根據嘛那這樣也能夠服社會大眾嘛如果是按照物價調整你有一個"},{"start":4785.651,"end":4809.836,"text":"調整的一個機制或是一個公式那就不用說今天高興調就調不高興調就不調所以謝謝剛剛部長認同但是其實部長我跟你講就我自己曾經當過公務員的那個經驗我覺得現在公務員報考人數幾乎是超過腰斬除了說薪資待遇之外我覺得工作尊嚴也是很重要的對不對"},{"start":4811.943,"end":4828.614,"text":"現在年輕人比較重視工作跟生活的一個橫頻工作尊嚴大概包括在職場上的專業受不受重視也包括說今天升遷那個前途看不看得到嘛兩項嘛 對不對好那我就想請教您我看到一篇那個風傳媒的風評"},{"start":4830.799,"end":4840.047,"text":"他評論說我們的公務員為什麼現在就沒有那麼的熱門他就說 頑纏文官 綠肥貓養好養滿你有聽過這樣的評論嗎我考一個時尚語啦 你知道現在年輕人流行一句話叫做富貴要人幫 辦卡辦這張 你知道辦哪一張卡嗎"},{"start":4856.318,"end":4872.918,"text":"我想我們當國家考試來選拔人才都是公正公平的我知道 你們選拔是公正公平我要跟你講是前途跟尊嚴辦卡辦這張富貴要人幫辦卡辦這張你知道辦哪一張卡嗎不知道不告訴你就民進黨黨政了"},{"start":4874.56,"end":4903.5,"text":"為什麼呢事實上在蔡英文總統第一任期她就非常著急把機要任用的政治幕僚大舉進入政府機關修改了中央行政機關組織基準法擴大三級機關的首長政務任用範圍然後修改駐外外交領事人員任用條例讓非職業外交官的文官得以擔任駐外的比例放寬又修改駐外機構組織通則徵定公使跟副代表則以政務"},{"start":4904.241,"end":4907.224,"text":"我只要想請教你一件事情你知道這對年輕人的影響是什麼嗎?"},{"start":4920.4,"end":4943.056,"text":"我們應考這個裡面沒有這個所謂黨政這個當然你沒有啊可是就是因為你沒有啊所以我發現我不要用今天考試的方式我可能今天只要加入民進黨我得到上面上司的陳鋒的賞賜我就可以跳過你今天辛辛苦苦寒窗十年然後努力苦讀然後"},{"start":4943.937,"end":4967.532,"text":"拼績效 慢慢拼升遷然後上到上面去因為上面的你的政務任用增加你的文官任用就減少啊不是嗎所以我就講第一個為什麼今天跟你講說薪資待遇當然是個問題可是事實上現在公務人員的尊嚴公務人員的前途都受到很大的影響我想要引用一句話就是說"},{"start":4969.01,"end":4981.594,"text":"我們的民進黨的前副總統呂秀蓮她就曾經說過一句話她徹底反對擴大官派跟政務官的比例為什麼因為她認為這個會破壞我們"},{"start":4984.655,"end":4999.901,"text":"臺灣長久以來的文官體制我想請問部長你認不認同我們臺灣不管是經濟奇蹟或是我們所謂內政的一些親民跟我們長年穩定的文官體制有很大的關係"},{"start":5001.263,"end":5025.83,"text":"有沒有很大的關係我們關係當然是國家社會發展因為效忠國家政府嘛他不隨政黨進退嘛所以當他獲得保障之後他也知道說今天我能夠靠我努力服務能夠逐步深陷於有一天能夠到所謂的那個我們叫公務人員的頂峰的時候那我覺得前途開拓的話你覺得大家會不會願意更有意願來報考公務員呢"},{"start":5028.231,"end":5032.835,"text":"所以我們都以公正公平公開的方式來滿足各用人機關的需求"},{"start":5047.259,"end":5067.518,"text":"我今天要跟你講你今天考試院你作為所謂的國家公務人員招考的主管機關你總要也了解原因對策嘛 對不對所以我這邊我也直接跟各位來報告一下我要來好好幫助文官啦"},{"start":5068.659,"end":5094.248,"text":"幫助文官就是要恢復我們的文官體制恢復文官的尊嚴所以過去那些錯誤的擴大的政務任用的那種方式我覺得要重盤檢討啦所以換言之今天如果一旦文官他士氣低落文官覺得今天專業不受到重視過去太多例子了政務任用的一些這幾年的一些狀況我舉個例子嘛"},{"start":5094.588,"end":5120.051,"text":"最經典的就是當然這不是文官啦這是政務任用的我們促轉會副主委張天青的他竟然以當東廠為秩序很驕傲欸所以你認同像這種行為嗎公務員是不會啦公務員基本上要奉公守法等於專業啦所以在這邊我也跟這個部長說我一定當公務員的後盾特別是公務員的前程跟尊嚴一定要照顧以上謝謝"},{"start":5122.415,"end":5123.616,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝兩位部長好,接下來我們請鍾嘉賓、鍾委員上台質詢"},{"start":5147.814,"end":5154.462,"text":"主席、在黨委員先進、列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請劉秘書長及許部長請劉秘書長、許部長上台備選"},{"start":5163.769,"end":5191.831,"text":"秘書長好 部長好其實我要問的問題其實剛剛羅委員有稍微點到有一些救教秘書長跟部長說鐵飯碗不香了這幾年公務人員的報考人數這10年大減了一半56%而報考率地方特考也只有六成而已那麼另外我們的很多類科入取不足額53個類科沒有人來入取大部分都在三等到四等的工程類職缺"},{"start":5194.13,"end":5195.611,"text":"請問秘書長或部長你怎麼看待這些現象"},{"start":5224.232,"end":5239.188,"text":"公務員報告,補充一個資訊,大家都會習慣把民國99年到101年的公務員報考的人數來跟現在做一個對照,不過我要強調那個是一個近20年來的高峰期,因為當時的經濟環境,那時候可能外面的經濟比較"},{"start":5244.933,"end":5247.095,"text":"某些執域有非常嚴重的落差問題"},{"start":5273.749,"end":5290.792,"text":"很好部長也同意嗎同意那請問我們公務人員鳳級是哪個部管的鳳級是全序部全序部來另外也跟任總的那個鳳點齊在那請周部長一起來這個不好意思那請考試院部長請回好那麼周部長"},{"start":5292.11,"end":5292.771,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5309.54,"end":5333.511,"text":"有齁 請對著麥克風齁其實我小時候我們家住的是宿舍國營事業配給的宿舍吃的是母親教師的糧票我叫小口 母親叫大口那糧票是什麼呢就是我們的儲糧推陳出新的時候就拿糧票去換那因為不好吃後來很多人反應就該稅改發代金這段歷史部長也了解吧"},{"start":5334.465,"end":5362.816,"text":"對 過去確實是那宿舍後來公務員也不配給宿舍了因為人數多也蓋不出來大家都自己外面買房子所以改成了貸金券跟現金補貼變成了津貼加擠 是不是這樣對 後來在診病所以公務人員的加擠其實早期有實務的加擠後來都改成用現金加擠那請問如果用這個方式來看如果有住的地方來滿足公務員員的居住需求你認為類似這樣的實務加擠有沒有可能提高國考的報考人數或降低基層公務員的離職率"},{"start":5363.72,"end":5390.741,"text":"如果對於公務人員待遇如果能夠改善包括這些加擠等等但加擠的部分主要是人總負責因為我們負責那個縫擠的結構我了解所以接下來來那個秘書長長期人力不足的地區部門或偏鄉的公務員有沒有可能現在政府在推社宅有沒有可能幫這些地方來提供以社宅的方式提高給基層公務員或偏鄉公務員這樣一個居住的滿足或舉例來講"},{"start":5392.322,"end":5416.523,"text":"過去我們很多地方都有什麼教師會館 墾丁的最夯後來墾丁會館誰在住啊 都是觀光客在住 景觀會館平川縣政府把這個教師館改建之後提供給包括牡丹、滿洲還有恆春的國小教師 因為他們流動比較高在那裡觀光地區民宿很貴啊 所以給他們住 你覺得這個有沒有必要"},{"start":5418.279,"end":5446.852,"text":"可能偏鄉的狀況應該會有一些居住上面的需求啦如果地方政府沒有這個資源去滿足大家的是的包括我們看到在中和社宅他是全台灣第一座給警消的社會住宅讓基層的警消因為警消他們要長時間備勤啊勤一休二啊幾乎呢他們都住在一起互相遭遇你覺得如果國家或政府來提供這樣子有沒有有助於我們公務人員的待遇的提升他的條件的改善"},{"start":5447.455,"end":5460.997,"text":"我想對公務員生活協助越多當然就是誘因越高啦這個我們可以跟行政院來討論是的那但是過去呢也回顧歷史還有宿舍被佔用的情況啦過去我印象當中呢最常佔用的就是學校的宿舍"},{"start":5461.954,"end":5462.694,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5491.525,"end":5492.446,"text":"社宅數量在持續擴充當中"},{"start":5509.747,"end":5533.336,"text":"現在年輕人不管當不當公務員都兩個問題一個是居住的問題一個是薪水的問題我們常常說你不能用香蕉來請獅子來上工我們現在公務人員待遇大概是這樣子有公務人員因為技能不同有的是猴子有的是獅子我們的專業家級獅子就比較多猴子給一根香蕉獅子的專業家級給三根香蕉你覺得這樣獅子會來上班嗎"},{"start":5536.343,"end":5561.009,"text":"是 我了解委員的意思這個當然對於專業家居尤其要看他的市場價值對的目前我們公務人員待遇的專業家居的思維是自己往內互比公務人員當中你的專業證照比較高你家居比較多你一般的就一般比較低但是你給獅子三根香蕉給猴子一根香蕉獅子不會來因為外面的花豹是吃肉的所以你們應該把你們的專業家居往"},{"start":5562.869,"end":5589.016,"text":"業界往外來對比才對部長同不同意?很同意嗎?所以秘書長是不是要思考一下那為什麼呢我要把部長請下來因為專業家級的比較呢你應該跟業界比政府機關、公務員是在跟業界搶人土木技師、建築師外界的薪水很高所以你的專業家級不能拿來跟我們公務員內部來比三根橡膠跟一根橡膠比你們了解嘛"},{"start":5595.082,"end":5609.336,"text":"公務人員奉集法誰由誰主管全序部但是需求是在人種那裡對不對目前你們的奉集不奉集法當中沒有實務加息的這個條件大概都是以現金計算"},{"start":5610.285,"end":5611.385,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5633.554,"end":5656.935,"text":"第4條第二款要加入同業薪資的待遇比較因為你們這寫什麼所需資格條件局人力供需市場狀況寫得很籠統第三項地域加擠要包括什麼居住條件第14條也要把各種的加擠的數額跟給予的方式數額就是金額但是給予的方式有多種有實務有代金可不可以放進去"},{"start":5658.254,"end":5679.455,"text":"可以 委員的建議我們會讓上好 所以最後秘書長我要拜託因為的確考試院主管的法律要修改的不多有些是卡到院跟院的協調所以我希望你們跟任總研議為入許不足的單位及偏鄉精神公務員提供涉財的可行性先做個評估未來有什麼需要去改修法的再提出來 可以嗎"},{"start":5681.065,"end":5681.345,"text":"同意嗎?"},{"start":5681.345,"end":5681.385,"text":"同意"},{"start":5709.736,"end":5732.805,"text":"好 謝謝 那大概多久可以有出來這個是可長可久啦 但是我們希望我們盡量跟人總盡快的來開 給個日期好不好我可以幫忙來轉啦 人總比較會願意接受我們的意見啦好 我們 三個月 兩個月 三個月內來好 三個月 我們也希望加速腳步 謝謝秘書長 謝謝部長"},{"start":5744.025,"end":5744.772,"text":"好接下來有請陳委員進行諮詢"},{"start":5768.612,"end":5793.729,"text":"好 謝謝主席那請主席是請我們秘書長好 邀請劉秘書長好 秘書長還有我們今天與會列席的各位主管還有我們在場所有的這個我們立法院的同仁大家早安我想先請教一下我們秘書長對於我們這個考積法的這個新制的問題"},{"start":5798.459,"end":5826.466,"text":"那因為這最近是我們公務人員熱烈在討論的一個重大的議題因為考機法的新制對於我們現在所推出的一些修正草案對於公務人員的這個制度來講影響很大我不曉得在這方面秘書長有沒有留意到第一就是說我們從現行的條文裡面我們的這個考機是從甲乙丙丁"},{"start":5827.903,"end":5848.213,"text":"4個等次現在改成傑出、優良、良好、待改善和太處5個等次那比例上也從過去的默契上甲等75%改成傑出加優良的部分不超過15%其中為了獎勵特別卓越的公務人員所增設的這個"},{"start":5850.585,"end":5875.36,"text":"結出等級分數在90分以上並且在修正的條文第9條也明定需達到某些具體的事蹟才能夠這個列為結出而修正的這個條文第10條也訂出在那些情況之下我們條文裡面的那些情況之下這資料上都有那不得列優良以上但"},{"start":5876.32,"end":5894.052,"text":"照這個草案內容來看公務人員似乎是沒有條件能夠爭取到優良的等級而在現行的這個制度原本有75%的人可以獲得甲等但是在這個實務的運作上有所謂的這個輪流的說法"},{"start":5896.257,"end":5925.154,"text":"那非資深的公務人員恐怕也很難拿到85分以上所以在心智下人人都想擠進這15%但似乎能預期大部分的人都會卡在這個良好的這個等級再次我想請教我們秘書長實施心智真的能夠公平的評鑑出公務人員的工作表現嗎還是會讓認真的公務人員乾脆選擇躺平就等著拿良好就好"},{"start":5925.734,"end":5947.416,"text":"秘書長跟委員報告首先我想強調就是我們在修法過程其實都有一個徵詢意見的過程那這一次這個事實上我們現在的階段就是我們全序部在就目前的構想在徵詢各機關的意見並不是公開也沒有還沒有推出這部法律這個草案目前還在全序部也沒有送到院裡面來"},{"start":5948.157,"end":5969.057,"text":"那第二個就委員剛剛垂詢的這一個版本的內容的問題我想出發點是因為現在的考機制度的確也有非常非常多的公務同仁在抱怨那剛剛講到說有錢不管怎麼分級大家都會懷疑有沒有輪流的問題現在很多拿一等的同仁每年有25%左右的同仁是拿到一等他的考機獎金只有半個月"},{"start":5969.597,"end":5996.982,"text":"事實上非常多人認為這個部分其實也有一些平和上面的可能不公平或他個人不服氣的狀況那我們現在的這個目前草案的構想裡面其實儘管委員剛剛說大多數人都是良好但良好的考機獎金就是一個月就是等於現在的假等而我們把優良跟傑出的獎金再拉高那其實大多數國家的考機其實都會有拔尖的效果就好像一個比賽裡面獎勵千幾名"},{"start":5998.962,"end":6016.772,"text":"也不會說大家都無法吻合啦事實上我想就是每個機關主管都會從同仁的表現去做出評價但是我也要強調我們這個草案目前的構想我們也得到很多不同的意見那我也謝謝大家很多公務同仁提供這些不同的意見那我們我想全訓部這邊、州部長這邊都會納入參考"},{"start":6019.073,"end":6019.093,"text":"秘書長："},{"start":6032.372,"end":6057.876,"text":"我們就這個法我們發現到說這個等級會影響到考級獎金的多寡那我在這邊我想另外再跟我們這個秘書長討論另外一個問題就是我們如果比照現行的條文和修正的條文可以發現說不但這個原本已經公頂的這個資深的公務員他的考級獎金可能一個月的這個獎金沒了"},{"start":6058.536,"end":6079.904,"text":"對於得到80到84分原本被評為甲等的公務員在新制也會變成和原本一等的公務員在同個等級所以我是覺得說我們在這一次的修法這算大秀大秀整個那個這個公務員的這個考機是整個都顛覆掉"},{"start":6081.365,"end":6090.827,"text":"用新法來要覆蓋那為什麼我們不在現行的法規上去做這個小修就好把不合適宜的把它修掉就好了"},{"start":6094.482,"end":6112.339,"text":"公務員現在烤雞的結構它有一個歷史的過程過去烤雞甲等是三分之一但不可以超過二分之一是最早比較早的規定後來歷史演變之後把那個上限二分之一上限拿掉之後甲等的比例就一路上漲漲到10多年前已經到了快90%了"},{"start":6113.76,"end":6131.422,"text":"那他就變成他這個考機就變成幾乎大家都是假等的時候他是考機失去他的意義那後來才會有這個聯名兼函的方式拉回來變成百分之七十五做上限五十是原則七十五是上限他有這樣一個過程那就承諾我雙數說現在製作企業蠻多批評的"},{"start":6133.344,"end":6151.761,"text":"滿多抱怨的那我們試圖做調整那調整是有一個原則跟前提就是我們希望國家的考機獎金的總支出不要減少但是也不要過度增加所以它就會變成是去調整它內部結構的合理性當然這就會造成一個問題有些人會少拿有些人會多拿"},{"start":6152.682,"end":6153.203,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6167.875,"end":6168.155,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6185.425,"end":6214.46,"text":"如果拿一等他是半個月考機獎金但再多加一個月因為他年功奉到頂所以也會有拿一等的同仁他有一個半月但是其他沒有到頂的假等的同仁是一個月這樣的一個現象那為什麼會有這個狀況就是說年功奉到頂這件事情其實比較是跟奉給有關比較跟年資有關但是我們把它跟考機放在一起討論其實概念好像有點混淆這是為什麼這一次在探討的時候也有想說這個部分要做一個檢討不過現在都沒有定案"},{"start":6215.626,"end":6234.386,"text":"好,秘書長,在整個這個新法上,其實看起來,它對於這個新的、新進的公務人員,比較沒有一個保障。它裡面,裡面有一個那個條文第10條的部分,有一個"},{"start":6236.892,"end":6260.366,"text":"我大概敘述一下單任機關首長、副首長或主管、副主管職務、領導有方、績效優良者他這一個第10條就限縮到新進人員你要拿到這個考機是這個你要拿到考機是傑出的部分是要符合這個條件"},{"start":6261.561,"end":6264.624,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":6278.58,"end":6307.726,"text":"二、大家很擔心分配或集中在高階文官或主管身上的問題就是優等跟傑出優良跟傑出會不會集中在高階人員身上的問題這個我們在修改過程中一定會納入考量希望他就是有一個比較應該是跟同階跟同階比較而不是低階去跟高階比那現在的考機之所以很多人抱怨其實比較多抱怨的同仁就是低階的同仁因為他們覺得自己常常輪移等不太公平"},{"start":6308.413,"end":6336.61,"text":"我在此還是建議我們就是秘書長就是針對這個部分我們應該是要去制定一個公平合理而且有效的這個考機才能夠讓我們這個好的人才能夠留在政府機關來服務避免一些年輕人因為看到這個心智他認為說未來他要在這個環境裡面職場要去做競爭會有困難的話他可能卻步不敢進入這個職場這是在跟我們秘書長做簡單報告另外我想請教一個問題"},{"start":6337.791,"end":6359.584,"text":"就是針對這個宜蘭設置考場的部分那我們在這個去年度高普考的部分是在宜蘭首次設立這個考場那成效也算是不錯可是在那個初等考的部分還是目前還是沒有考場那針對這個部分我們是不是可以再考慮在宜蘭來增設考場"},{"start":6361.185,"end":6383.239,"text":"陳委員我是不是請考選部部長出言包圍明年會增設明年會增設沒問題吧好我希望說能夠增設在宜蘭因為我看那個考場設置在臺北、花蓮、臺東都有就單單漏掉宜蘭因為地方特考地方特考有設那地方特考的五等明年就並無出等考試所以我們這個"},{"start":6385.561,"end":6388.485,"text":"出展考試明年宜蘭同樣會設這個考試在宜蘭會設是好一樣地點在宜大嗎還是"},{"start":6392.542,"end":6420.122,"text":"這個到時候就看地方政府怎麼安排我希望因為你增設考場的話也會吸引到一些要進入這個職場的人會願意去考試阿不然舟車勞頓每次都要進去考試這個非常的麻煩也會讓一些民眾對於來台北考試或是到其他考場去考試他們會覺得說舟車勞頓的麻煩所以拜託就是不管是高普考還是初等考在宜蘭一定要設"},{"start":6420.662,"end":6421.903,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝民長、謝部長。接下來有請謝委員、龍介質詢。"},{"start":6453.643,"end":6456.606,"text":"請秘書長你跟賴總統共事過多久在台南市政府大概將近三年在總統府"},{"start":6475.549,"end":6496.178,"text":"總統府不是做主管,我是問你第一次那三年你對他應該蠻了解的所以說個性上應該他也算,他也有一些優點他對於制度"},{"start":6498.479,"end":6524.722,"text":"他對制度我認定他還算蠻尊重制度嘛是不是這樣是那你知道就是說剛剛貴院的報告就提到說現在公務人員考的人很少看你的報告這10年來等於降了百分之五十幾五十六"},{"start":6527.27,"end":6553.321,"text":"我剛有補充說明那個是用最高峰期來比較當然啊可是也不是只有我們啦日本到韓國也是這樣啊那日本他就提到說要準備提出這個無條件週休三日來鼓勵大家來報考是不是這樣有這樣的一個尤其是"},{"start":6555.828,"end":6578.854,"text":"比較專業的,譬如說土木的、建築書、建築的、土木的、電機的,那幾乎差不多你們課差不多我們沒人要來啊還是有啦,只是說他有時候會出現不足而已幾乎零欸,每次都欠了啊那薪資的話年薪大概七八十萬嘛"},{"start":6580.66,"end":6607.406,"text":"可是他外面我現在講外面最低的喔對這些人才最低的薪資啊相接八四萬年薪啊一百四到一百五那好一點的就是他水平高一點點的就正常一般的就差不多兩百萬啊你看什麼人要來幫你扣啊這是基中一個原因啊最主要就是怎樣"},{"start":6608.956,"end":6623.827,"text":"還有一個原因不能來考我不用考我就可以去上班了對不對十年前本院就有做過結議就是說機關約聘不得超過百分之五嘛你們知道嗎是有這個限制所以那時候立法院還算不錯"},{"start":6637.779,"end":6665.685,"text":"要求各機關的時候呢立法院本身就是到期就不續聘立法院有做到嗎可是你呢沒有啊你看數位部你也看好了數位部你有沒有認同他做我問你我剛剛問你就說你跟賴清德的共識對他的理解他會同意現在數位部這種做法嗎"},{"start":6667.043,"end":6690.405,"text":"我跟委員報告各組織會不會超過5%的會聘人員那他有時候組織法制會有特別的規定那有數位部、金融機構、文化機構都有這樣的規定沒有啦,要有比較理破啊但實務上我跟委員報告他們也找不了那麼多人現實上並沒有用到這麼多不是啦,你賣錢賣你就啊啊啊,整個都在你那裡"},{"start":6692.099,"end":6706.293,"text":"九百七十幾個他準備要聘用幾個不用科技捏這個他第一個還是他在組織法裡面我記得每個機關一百個所以如果說數位補的話對啊還有幾個機關"},{"start":6710.137,"end":6730.265,"text":"其他機關因為我記得在科技啦或是文化部金融機構裡面有的幾十個不同立法院也有啦然後他還要持續從民間徵才這講的科技最多嘛從民間徵才為什麼不透過考選來有我們有今年開辦了資安特的類科有"},{"start":6730.905,"end":6732.126,"text":"現在數位部已經聘用了這些人了"},{"start":6755.458,"end":6760.043,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6777.083,"end":6803.51,"text":"這我們立法院有必要去做這種人事任用的追蹤啦是因為你們沒方便啦我不替你們做事情你知道嗎跟委員報告因為他們的報告資料不會呈現他們在蘇衛部工作所以你把報告的人那些主委我就可以比對嗎我們比對啊 除非蘇衛部這邊願意提供名單跟我們來做比對我們可以比對啊因為他裡面請什麼人我可以幫忙啊對不對"},{"start":6806.431,"end":6828.625,"text":"我告訴你這叫紅骨寶刀啦頭刀喔 頭刀這種的東西所以為什麼賴清德會找人點名他最不適任套一個要跟海特教的就是他 你不知道嗎你不知道他是誰最壞我告訴你真的啦 我問 你的名字海德啦"},{"start":6831.509,"end":6856.821,"text":"其實您剛剛講一個問題很重要很關鍵啦就是說其實真的是他們最大的問題可能不是考不考而是因為薪資跟民間的落差真的很大所以問題相對波動感就出來了嘛因為沒有科技還要比我們這裡的科技還要多你聽到沒有是所以我們也希望能解決這個問題啦你是考試院捏是所以我們就積極來推動你應該比我比較混淆比較對捏"},{"start":6859.339,"end":6870.29,"text":"因為這個 他的組織法裡面的規定是立法院立法啦這麼多公務人員 大家都是經過考選 大家拚到出來 哪一集比他們利益比較好 沒到他們的七成不是啦 這 我要講這 不福啦公務人員啊 棄盤就對了啦 這個國家就到了"},{"start":6884.549,"end":6894.238,"text":"我們的文官制度在亞洲可算是屬一屬二我不是不敢你們說給一個補費把我們弄得整個都亂經這不好我要請教一下公務人員的體育"},{"start":6901.977,"end":6924.267,"text":"那按照這個CPR這樣調整,你覺得含二綱,這個團體,是什麼,可以一致嗎?能不能一致啊?我是不是請周部長來回答?包括老年級富家就對比起來,我們能不能一致嗎?條件跟辦法?"},{"start":6925.647,"end":6948.153,"text":"我們的規定基本上在公保的部分那可能跟勞保相對比較可能勞保稍微多一點但是就退休制度來講我們盡量讓公務人員的這些退伏制度不要比勞工差你要怎麼努力啊"},{"start":6951.154,"end":6968.38,"text":"我們現在建構的制度其實退休的部分不見得會比老公差目前只有公保年金給付或公保一次老年給付基本上給付率會稍微比老保低一點能不能一樣"},{"start":6969.46,"end":6969.66,"text":"主席"},{"start":6985.834,"end":6986.014,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7007.381,"end":7019.344,"text":"退休給予會每4年或是CPI達到正負5%的時候會做調整而且今年已經做調整了因為如果是隨CPI要看適用的對象因為這一次適用對象是沒關係所有的公務人員都有這種機械啦那退休的家庭對不對"},{"start":7037.833,"end":7064.772,"text":"政府是這樣的 要有一個態度 譬如說不可以把大家拉到變善吃 要把賣的拉起來 讓大家都變好東西不然說 勞工辛苦沒對 你就跟公務人員 打給他勞工變辛苦 不是這樣啦 要把勞工拉起來 讓大家都變好東西 不可以把大家拉到變善吃 要有這個概念 好不好"},{"start":7067.894,"end":7090.687,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝謝委員、謝謝秘書長及部長接下來有請林委員、施銘質詢好 謝謝主席主席請秘書長有請劉秘書長"},{"start":7097.045,"end":7114.997,"text":"好 秘書長早 委員早安是 秘書長我先就講這個就是我想前幾天有發生因為那個臺北市社會局有一位女科員涉及販毒的一個事件那這個事情依據媒體在3月7號的一個揭露"},{"start":7116.318,"end":7133.613,"text":"女科員涉嫌販毒遭逮捕後以20萬元交保後傳北市社會局也在事發隔日要召開考機委員會並要求女科員出席陳述申辯不過這位女科員她缺席考機會"},{"start":7135.594,"end":7161.188,"text":"臺北市社會局表示,因為當事人沒有出席考試會﹚沒有完成所謂的陳述跟申辯程序﹚所以會再通知當事人預計7天內含例假日會再開考試會﹚目前也將現有關鍵證據依照公務人員服務法﹚公務人員懲戒法及相關規範來依附懲戒﹚並先行停止其職務"},{"start":7162.409,"end":7168.198,"text":"而以公務人員奉旗法的規定停職期間仍可領取半薪"},{"start":7175.748,"end":7201.543,"text":"那您認為因為個人犯刑責而遭停職的處分卻仍可以領取半薪半奉這樣合理嗎?符合我們社會的觀感及人民的法律情感嗎?是,我跟委員報告這個部分其實涉及對於目前懲戒或懲處工具的應用那我這個是不是請周部長來做好,請部長回答"},{"start":7203.018,"end":7220.084,"text":"因為在目前這個案例因為還沒有判決確定在判決確定之前用停職那給判刑是維持他基本的生活是給他適當的一個保障但是因為我們在還沒有判刑確定之前基本上還是要推定無罪"},{"start":7220.604,"end":7244.36,"text":"所以這個時候就直接剝奪他所有的這一個縫及可能會影響他的生活那這一個部分我們當然認為目前是還算可以您剛才的論述就是說您基於無罪推定的原則所以會保障他的基本生活所以給他半縫但是我想這樣子針對就是每一個案子都不一樣"},{"start":7245.731,"end":7275.043,"text":"那你像這種販毒的案子啊販毒涉及公務人員涉及販毒啊還可以領半薪啊我想這個對人民的法律情感真的是非常不能接受大家觀感非常差這個已經造成說我們公務人員的聲譽很大的影響這種人因為他這個還沒有判刑確定或者一直還沒有判決那因為受到停止職務停職人可以領半薪那"},{"start":7275.563,"end":7296.981,"text":"我現在問你,你認為以你個人的觀感,你認為這個合理嗎?我先不講法律啦,你的觀點,你個人的感受。所以你的觀感也不好嘛,對不對?那既然說權敘部委感覺觀感不好,這個法制是不是有檢討修正的必要性?"},{"start":7297.796,"end":7298.216,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7318.564,"end":7340.2,"text":"其實說我們雖然尊重無罪推定的原則但是我們是不是就得依照諷刑法保留得知給半信本諷的彈性空間是否仍有它的一個必要性當然你現在是該講得是授權那個行政機關本身來做決定"},{"start":7341.201,"end":7356.191,"text":"但是你把這種事情全部授權行政機關而不去在法制面上做修正那這個會造成行政機關他們在這個運用上會有很大的一個疑慮給首長太大的權利"},{"start":7357.452,"end":7385.869,"text":"所以這部分這個學者也建議說應該慎重設計相關的要件來這個符合我們法律的一個設計所以這部分我是今天有一個提案要求說我們這個考試院能夠就這個部分能夠在三個月提出一個修正建議的必要去延期是否有修正的一個必要性就相關的要件是不是做制度的一個修改"},{"start":7388.613,"end":7412.623,"text":"委員的意見我們來做演繹我給你三個月的時間謝謝第二我想大家 剛才大家一直關心有關於我們這個高不考的報名人數的一個問題我想我們這個113年的高不考也昨天已經開始報考了那請問秘書長你對於今年考試報名的人數您樂觀嗎"},{"start":7415.267,"end":7422.855,"text":"我覺得有一個部分可以期待因為我們今年高補考是大規模減科減少考科的第一屆的實施所以"},{"start":7425.524,"end":7454.465,"text":"昨天開始報名了已經有一萬人了我們再來觀察像今年的效果所以你是樂觀有信心的啦應該這樣講我覺得考生不來考有一個很大的問題是我們考試本身對年輕人求職來說是一個障礙啦就是說不是說考試本身的障礙應該說考試的方法裡面可能不要讓大家必須負擔太過高的成本所以我們今年普遍推動檢科的這個政策所以你也思考說怎麼樣子讓這個考生能夠回流啦對"},{"start":7455.365,"end":7469.02,"text":"對,因為我們看到就是說在五年內來看的話我們高考報考人數2019年是四萬五千多人到去年的報考人數已降到三萬七千多人所以一直在下降"},{"start":7470.171,"end":7487.09,"text":"那我想看秘書長您回答我們幾位委員的有關於這個公務人員報考人數下滑的原因剛才那個部長也有回答就第一個是少子化的原因另外因為外部競爭的關係還有第三個是因為那個待遇的問題"},{"start":7488.672,"end":7513.68,"text":"但是我觀察到一個面向就是說這個現在我們在原單位的公務人員離職率非常高我們以新北市為例我們看新北市新北市它在2022年它的離職數是298人但是調往中央的往中央跑的人數高達166人"},{"start":7516.701,"end":7539.661,"text":"所以這個面向我們看到就是說因為很多人他不願意在原來的這個地方待他希望到中央單位去所以我們導致說我們地方政府人員的人員他常常很多的人他心不在地方政府他一直想往上爬那為什麼會這些造成說這些公務人員一直想往中央跑的一個原因"},{"start":7540.049,"end":7559.519,"text":"中央機關職等比較高啦我想公務員、優秀公務員追逐生前這個也很自然是所以秘書長你也提到問題的核心啊地方政府的職等比較低嘛一樣的職務的話一樣工作嘛但是到中央做一樣的工作他的職等會比較高所以你有沒有思索"},{"start":7560.598,"end":7588.9,"text":"如何來讓我們地方政府人員的職等能夠跟中央的職等的落差不要造成太大的落差要如何來調整有沒有思考過各位報告我們其實這幾年在地方的某一些職等上面如果實務上有需求全序部的考量都會比較放寬那考試院也都支持能夠盡量讓地方有留才的工具比如說以新北來講"},{"start":7589.801,"end":7591.262,"text":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7613.559,"end":7631.676,"text":"但是我想地方政府還是需要留財你剛才也提到那如何讓我們國家的人財庫能夠穩定啊離子率不要說我一直想往心不在這個原單位啊如何的來去留住他們的心但我們一直剛才跟你討論就是有關職等的問題嘛"},{"start":7632.657,"end":7660.799,"text":"所以我是建議我們是不是就我們地方政府人員值等如何來提升他們的值等來克服我們存在已久的值等落差的問題這方面是不是可以在這個一個月內提出書面報告給我可不可以我們把目前已經處理完的跟正在討論中的來跟委員做一個說明好我再請教我們剛才大家一直提到說數位治理數位值能的問題"},{"start":7662.785,"end":7688.019,"text":"我想我們考試院保訓會有一個叫做一等公務員學習平台本席在意的是一個數位落差的問題雖然有這個學習平台也就是說對於資歷比較深的公務人員對於數位化的熟悉度跟比較親近的公務人員是有差異的這個您贊成嗎?秘書長"},{"start":7691.843,"end":7695.212,"text":"有這樣的差異嘛所以針對這個問題啊我們有如何的解決方案了沒有"},{"start":7702.68,"end":7730.046,"text":"現在目前在員公務機關的這些資深的公務人員他們的數位治理能力跟新進的是有落差你如何的來培訓他們這個在職訓練的部分這個其實比較屬於人事總署的訓練業務不過其實各機關都會重視這個問題像我們自己考試院內部我們也都會一直在開放比如現在AI這絕對是未來工具性的革命是一個革命的"},{"start":7731.206,"end":7752.759,"text":"工作上有一個很大的變革所以我們也有各種的課程來提升大家這方面的認識我想秘書長我們都很重視數位治理的問題剛才謝榮介委員也對於說我們數位部有關他們的資通人員的考用問題來就教你剛才你也回答一個重點就是說在113年我們修正公務人員高考三等考試就在113年我們就會針對"},{"start":7758.507,"end":7759.811,"text":"知痛安全類科我們開始來考用"},{"start":7762.486,"end":7786.236,"text":"但是我現在前幾天我也問那個人事總長有關於說我們的資安長我們行政院各機關各部會的資安長目前都是由非專業的副所長來兼任所以現階段我們要如何實際增強政府人員的數位職能以及數位治理能力就很重要"},{"start":7787.361,"end":7804.149,"text":"所以我想請教秘書長這部分你未來要如何來精進這些政府機關相關就是我們剛才一直提到的這些資深的人員的數位職能及他的數位治理能力尤其治安長"},{"start":7805.97,"end":7821.169,"text":"資安長的部分他為什麼現在這個都是由高階的副首長來兼任最主要是因為他必須要能夠協調各機關各單位但是他會有專業的同仁做他的幕僚"},{"start":7822.351,"end":7837.981,"text":"這我了解,但是秘書長我回到我剛才的建議我是建議無論如何請保訓會要好好的研議如何解決學術公務員工作條件上的各項需求尤其現在面對我們資安"},{"start":7839.022,"end":7839.503,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7854.358,"end":7868.139,"text":"那結果可以當治安長所以如何來這個來協助他們來精進他們的數位職能我想這點請我們考試院保訓會來研議好不好以上好謝謝"},{"start":7870.302,"end":7888.619,"text":"好 謝謝林委員、謝謝秘書長及郝部長因為主席在這邊做一個宣告就是預期在翁委員質詢或休息5分鐘但因為副總召在場我們就翁委員或11點看那個後續的情況那接下來我們就請翁委員、小林質詢"},{"start":7899.441,"end":7910.546,"text":"主席秘書長還有考試院的這個部長們官員們大家好我是翁小玲那現在有請秘書長有請劉秘書長是的秘書長我剛剛其實也聆聽了前面幾位委員們的詮詢就是特別提到現在我們公務人員的報考率"},{"start":7926.598,"end":7927.799,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7947.814,"end":7960.705,"text":"但是很遺憾的可能是清華大學都是理工科系的學生多幾乎會想考公務員的學生非常非常少數大概全班不到5%吧一個60個班級的學生頂多只有兩三位同學想要考公務員所以我覺得這個是對我們國家的公務人員的"},{"start":7968.831,"end":7973.576,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7993.115,"end":8017.014,"text":"現在政府提供給公務員的待遇不是很理想跟一般的企業存在一定的很大的落差這方面有關在這裏我想就教就是不知道考試院有沒有去做過分析目前我國的公務人員與民間企業的薪資待遇中間大概有多大的差距"},{"start":8019.514,"end":8031.307,"text":"根委員報告可能在特定行業的部分我們應該比較會去關心尤其是我們招募不足的這些科目比如說資訊類科建築跟工程獸醫公子獸醫師類似這樣的"},{"start":8038.995,"end":8039.956,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8058.902,"end":8071.605,"text":"好 了解那當然我很希望就是考試院這邊可以去做一個通盤的研析包含不同職系的這個公務人員那麼他們跟一般的民間企業的薪資待遇的這個相比較這樣的話我們才能夠真的去檢討到底我們現在公務人員的待遇是跟民間企業是差多少我們一定不要說是趕上是相當的程度我們一定要縮短中間的這個差距那麼可能才對於要吸引優秀的公務人員比較有誘因"},{"start":8088.248,"end":8088.508,"text":"麻煩周部長"},{"start":8110.322,"end":8133.937,"text":"我們這一次調整縫級法當然主要會涉及到整個縫表結構的調整我們希望讓它更合理然後再更有這個規律性那當然這會涉及到這個縫級的提高還有年功縫縫級的增加那目前這個部分當然那是屬於法制層面那實際上縫點則算縫額跟"},{"start":8137.839,"end":8140.26,"text":"我看這個相關的辦法裡面有講就是有關於就是依照憲法規定其實這個即奉是屬於考試院"},{"start":8160.086,"end":8180.087,"text":"的職權那麼對於像是年功奉啊本奉啊等等這些奉典折算的奉額是由行政院會上考試院要共同定之我想就這個部分來講的話希望考試院可以更積極而不是就是等待人事院行政總處那裡主動提出這個有關於這個奉典折算奉額"},{"start":8181.128,"end":8184.171,"text":"最近一次奉典折算額的修正是在什麼時候?"},{"start":8201.086,"end":8216.482,"text":"奉典則算奉額就會隨著那個待遇的調整像今年限職公務人員調升4%當然那個就會做調整所以也就是說這近30年來其實奉典則算奉額的這個調整的次數很少然後調整幅度也不高嘛我剛剛聽了這個羅委員的"},{"start":8219.338,"end":8233.134,"text":"這個執行他裡面有提到那麼就現在其實我認為要比較積極的很快速的可以調整公務人員的待遇大概就是可以從這個調整、奉典、折算額"},{"start":8235.433,"end":8237.113,"text":"責算率還可以調整"},{"start":8260.342,"end":8283.936,"text":"如果他的縫點是在221點到790之間都是這樣所以大部分的公務員可能都是在這個74.3的部分所以如果說你們調高你調到80或是調到85那我覺得公務人員就很有感了我相信也可以吸引更多的考生來報考就代表整個公務員的薪資結構是往上的可能還不需要動到修法這個有關於縫"},{"start":8287.078,"end":8308.301,"text":"這個折算奉典的這個部分應該是考試院會商,你們是要訂立行政命令,訂立一個辦法來挑戰嗎?還是你們自己?人事行政總處那邊在演繹,然後我們只是參與只是會商,基本上都是他召開那個軍公教代理審議委員會去做決定的"},{"start":8308.669,"end":8309.969,"text":"其實真的不需要這麼麻煩還要去修法"},{"start":8335.979,"end":8357.211,"text":"只要是把現在的縫點折算額調高就可以了對不對是OK那接下來我要問一下有關於考試的部分其實我看到你們的立法計畫裡面其實有關於考試的修正蠻多的包含這個軍法官我先談軍法官的部分其實軍法官已經有多少年沒有招考了應該已經有超過10年了"},{"start":8362.711,"end":8364.411,"text":"他只是對於軍事審判就在暫時的時候會啟動平時期間他是回歸到一般的法院來審理"},{"start":8387.017,"end":8405.357,"text":"我們現在在招募的這個幫國防部考這個國防法務官就是為了填補軍法官不再招考以後的可是國防法務官跟軍法官的職權性質是不一樣的不知道秘書長您知道這個事情嗎就軍法官他有法定的職權可是看起來我"},{"start":8406.318,"end":8429.1,"text":"現在國防法務官他只是做一些例行性的這個法制和行政的工作這兩個是不一樣的更何況現在大家不都說臺灣是我們這個臺灣現在是全世界最危險的地方隨時可能都會有戰爭的發生我們這個暫時就雖然軍法官現在是適用在軍法官未來會這個"},{"start":8431.742,"end":8441.873,"text":"處理有關於在戰時的這個軍事審判但是我們要養兵千日啊不能說是真的發生戰爭需要啟動這個軍事審判的時候結果找不到軍法官這個部分我覺得其實是問題很嚴重的"},{"start":8449.609,"end":8458.858,"text":"新聞報告就是說因為這個考試院是依照現行的法律裡面需要的這個配合用人機關來做招考啦那委員剛剛講這個問題那這個應該是法律修正的結果"},{"start":8464.804,"end":8465.565,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8485.273,"end":8509.565,"text":"我來回答一下這個經法官的部分事實上因為他不屬於公務人員所以在上一屆考試院也針對這個問題有做一些討論那考試院這邊事實上只負責公務人員考試那經法官的屬性他屬於經人所以在上次"},{"start":8509.585,"end":8534.511,"text":"好 簡單來說就是要國防部要請求你們辦理你們才會辦理是嗎那請問國防部過去這些年沒有請你們辦理嗎所以現在就是軍法官的部分暫時不考但是就是用國防法務官的方式來禁用我現在要講的就是一個前提的問題就是說這件事情到底要不要辦軍法官考試的這件事情發動權是在國防部然後考試院是配合辦理對吧是那所以國防部"},{"start":8539.552,"end":8568.066,"text":"過去這些年都沒有提出說他們要舉辦軍法官考試嗎之前有提出來但是考試院這邊是有不同的意見是為什麼考試院會有不同的意見我覺得可以討論但是我覺得主動的發動權還是在國防部國防部他一定有通盤的考量所以國防部後來通盤考量之後就是用這個國防法務官的方式來禁用有關軍法人才"},{"start":8568.823,"end":8596.077,"text":"是可是現在軍法官的這個缺額非常多而且就像我剛剛講的軍法官跟國防事務官他其實他的這個權限不同而更何況在現在軍事審判法裡面並沒有訂定國防法務官所以看起來我覺得國防法務官他大概就是處理一些在軍事機關裡面的例行性的一些法務行政的問題這個部分還沒有修法進去但是沒有修法進去的這個前提這個情況之下其實還是"},{"start":8597.718,"end":8614.365,"text":"應該要依照軍事審判法裡面的規定該考軍法官的考試就要考你可以說我可以聘比較考就是錄取比較少的人可是不可以不考更何況就是這個主動權如果在國防部那據我了解其實國防部一直很希望能夠舉辦軍法官考試"},{"start":8617.346,"end":8617.566,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8631.927,"end":8655.985,"text":"再去多了解那不好意思主席我可以再延長一些時間嗎一分鐘好不好因為要差不多休息了那很快的再講就是說你們這次也有提出來高考三級要增加司法行政類的考試而這個有關於司法行政人員你們這次考試考這個司法行政司法行政人員他最主要是要做什麼"},{"start":8657.734,"end":8678.295,"text":"他主要工作還是做司法行政的部分因為他們認為在司法院這個行政人員應該還要針對法律能夠有更高的這個素養因為司法院他們之前也有提出他們的這個立法計畫他們希望能夠增加法官助理所以司法行政人員跟法官助理是一樣嗎"},{"start":8679.586,"end":8698.923,"text":"不一樣不一樣 做的事情不一樣那現在司法院裡面或是法務部的地檢署其實他們已經有書記官、司法事務官、檢察事務官還有一般的法制行政、法官助理其實有很多都可以協助處理司法行政人員"},{"start":8699.343,"end":8701.545,"text":"司法院的名額應該是有跟人總討論過所以他才會有這個擴充的能力"},{"start":8722.379,"end":8722.759,"text":"我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9091.308,"end":9111.482,"text":"好繼續開會先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案依本會往例在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理那預計呢在副委員昆齊之後詢答後呢我們再進行處理臨時提案那繼續下來現在有請吳委員思堯質詢"},{"start":9126.177,"end":9127.319,"text":"謝謝主席,有請劉建興秘書長有請劉秘書長"},{"start":9133.23,"end":9155.596,"text":"麗珊好,我們考試院的同仁大家好我過去在教育文化委員會我有機會能夠導入我過去在教文領域的一些新思維也希望能夠帶給我們考試院的同仁在公務人力的考選訓用的部分能夠有所不同思維的導入那我今天的破題非常清楚"},{"start":9156.836,"end":9179.552,"text":"國家需要更多的文化人才,在攬財育才的部分,考試院其實可以跟上這個部部都是文化部,人人都是文化人這樣的國家發展趨勢。好,下一頁。問一下這個建新秘書長,您個人最近一次參加的文化event是什麼?或是你特別喜歡去什麼文化場館?音樂會跟美術館"},{"start":9181.681,"end":9181.741,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9210.765,"end":9232.513,"text":"我以我自己 您剛說您是去年去不好意思 我是文化界的這個同好我的文化生活也是我的工作啦所以我上週末我先去了歷史博物館我跟大家分享歷史博物館是國民政府來台以後第一個建的博物館"},{"start":9233.593,"end":9248.583,"text":"他歷經一甲子,現在邁向70年,最近在我們啟用前瞻基礎建設的預算,協助他進行開館以來最大的修復、修善、整修、整建,終於在上週末重新開幕。"},{"start":9249.844,"end":9257.446,"text":"所以歷史博物館呢就做了一個開幕的大展而且他是跨界的他請了時尚設計師周育穎這是台灣的新銳時尚設計師是走上紐約時裝週走上倫敦時裝週的一把手他利用史博館的典藏館藏去時尚跟文物的結合所以那天史博館的這個開幕event非常的精彩"},{"start":9278.852,"end":9294.983,"text":"我自己也成為時尚代言人,是上臺灣時裝周也是司要委員任內催生的我穿上的是長裕,我們史博館的典藏長裕的畫作,跟周育穎的一個時尚跨界的合作"},{"start":9297.324,"end":9317.692,"text":"那天的展覽也就是史博館現在重新的這個展覽我呼籲我也邀請大家一起去看這檔展覽它讓我們看到文化的新跟舊的鏈結跨域的新時代到了所以把史博館的很多典藏譬如說郭雪狐的早春系列它變成一個系列的時裝"},{"start":9319.754,"end":9339.333,"text":"馬白水的太魯閣之美也成為一套四件的時裝系列當然我們的青花瓷也能夠作為時裝、作為台灣的IP、台灣的文化內涵江賢二老師跟常鈺的畫作再搭配周育穎這個Fashion Designer可以成為一個跨界的新的展演"},{"start":9340.595,"end":9357.163,"text":"我分享這些是要告訴大家告訴我們考試院所有的同仁文化在進步跨域跟創新是現在的文化政策的新挑戰下一頁我也在上個週末我也去了台灣博物館台博館有一個台灣建築與圖說紀錄片的首映會"},{"start":9363.867,"end":9370.903,"text":"我爭取了文化部的預算讓以前建築是營建署在管的建築都是法規"},{"start":9372.523,"end":9397.275,"text":"我想很多的考試院的同仁你們在做各項的這個考試都知道建築就是考營建法規、考結構安全事實上建築是文化的一部分所以我催生了文化部開始讓博物館跟建築用文化的觀點去從事很多包括那天的活動是紀錄片的拍攝下一頁而未來回到前一頁"},{"start":9398.596,"end":9411.542,"text":"未來台灣文化部會有一個新的管社叫做台灣建築文化中心所以我要告訴大家分享大家建築的主管機關不再只有內政部"},{"start":9412.594,"end":9413.935,"text":"為什麼要分享這些呢?下一頁"},{"start":9435.37,"end":9455.359,"text":"我想告訴大家越來越多的文化館舍都在成立都在興設這幾年來從鐵道博物館、台灣文學館、台灣歷史博物館、國家攝影文化中心、國家漫畫博物館、國家兒童未來博物館、電影及影視音中心、公視台語台也開了、台灣plus也開台了"},{"start":9456.179,"end":9470.504,"text":"這是中央政府的文化建設未來有台灣音樂中心跟建築文化中心要上路而地方政府就以大家最熟知的北流、北藝再到這個高雄的衛武營等等"},{"start":9472.338,"end":9472.438,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9491.169,"end":9514.827,"text":"我講法規我花一點時間跟大家分享文化基本法終於在2019年修法完成而立法完成它是文化的基本大法就是文化的憲法文化基本法裡頭有針對文化人才的禁用選用是大大的要求要全方面的來跟上我就不贅述條文了下一頁"},{"start":9515.925,"end":9532.311,"text":"文化資產保存法也在2016年大修了大幅的要求各個部會部部都是文化部就從文化資產的修復下手所以呢我們需要在文資修復的人才導入各部會不是只有文化部需要文化資產修復的人才"},{"start":9534.008,"end":9550.874,"text":"所以我分享一個經歷經驗經濟部下所屬的國營事業從臺糖、臺電、中油到臺灣自來水公司這幾年來106年就開始在他自己的徵才入取項目裡頭訂定了文化資產類"},{"start":9553.175,"end":9566.409,"text":"這是國營事業很大的一個創新因為台電也好、中油也好、台糖也好、也好他們管理的很多都是文化資產需要修復人才而不是凡事都是丟給文化部去做"},{"start":9567.116,"end":9584.009,"text":"最正文化法規因應文字法的大修我們需要人才需要人力下一頁好 文獎條例也修正了2021年我們各個部會要強化對於公共藝術的投入它同樣需要文化人才"},{"start":9584.99,"end":9607.924,"text":"所以回到重點喔 夏業 這個前提有點久 我要醞釀那個情緒來說服大家文化在進步 文化建設越來越多 國家需要更多的文化人才但是呢 夏業 看看我們在懶財面 考公職的都知道 文化行政類就是死亡之族啊"},{"start":9609.236,"end":9620.408,"text":"錄取率最低開的缺最少我以高考這五年來的統計文化行政只錄取86人錄取率只有0.59"},{"start":9623.41,"end":9651.944,"text":"那其他類別都是高於文化行政的類別各類科的錄取率是11.23文化行政類只有2.4這是高考下一頁我們來看普考的攬裁的部分五年來的文化行政錄取71人占整體的普考錄取人員的0.57而跟其他類科比起來也是明顯的偏低"},{"start":9653.084,"end":9653.104,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":9667.615,"end":9696.465,"text":"現在委員的分享我覺得這個資訊對我們來說是很重要那過去可能也沒有這麼深入的這個分析的意見如果從錄取例來看那麼第一就表示說其實想進政府部門服務相關工作的專業人士還比較多但是他的機會不夠多那當然我必須說各機關所的需用人數是由各機關自己來報這個比較不是考試院主任但文化部永遠告訴我他們爭取不到"},{"start":9698.506,"end":9719.124,"text":"應該 政治部門應該不是考試院 只要報來缺我們一定會來協助招考那至於說 也許是他們希望更多的員額那這個部分就比較是行政院我懂 人事行政總處但是我們絕對支持這樣的理念各部門真的需要有更多文化的人力那同仁 一般的同仁也需要有更多文化的思維"},{"start":9719.784,"end":9734.91,"text":"我非常謝謝秘書長的回答我也非常清楚開缺第一線是部會當然還有地方政府喔第二關就是人事總處在處理但是跟考試院也是有關係的來懶財面也許跟您沒有那麼直接那我們來看育財面下一頁"},{"start":9737.612,"end":9762.773,"text":"這是公務人員基礎訓練120小時裡頭只有4個小時要上文化類科的課程而剛好這4個小時就是線上課程就可以了而這4個小時的文化課程我去看了它的課程內容確實跟文化相關但是它focus在族群和諧它focus在氣候變遷"},{"start":9764.554,"end":9786.634,"text":"對不起 這不是我所論述的文化政策的精進教育這個是公務人力的基礎訓練所以文化課程換寡也換不均只佔120個小時裡面的4小時然後它的4小時上的還不是我們文化基本法要求的文化課程 這個可以改進吧"},{"start":9787.298,"end":9790.34,"text":"好沒關係那我下面講完下一頁你再一起回應這個是另外一個在進修的課程15個小時高普考的輔助必修數位課程就是數位課程裡頭確實落實了台灣現在重要的國家政策譬如說人權的課程性平的課程援助民族的課程但是就是沒有文化基本法裡頭文化政策要求的文化教育的"},{"start":9816.121,"end":9835.113,"text":"公職人員的訓練在進修所以文化立國部部市文化部在育才的方面也確實做得不夠好再下一個我把問題點出來剛剛那個是普考的人力的這個generally的訓練課程這個就是文化行政類別的集中食物的專業訓練30小時課程真的很好因為是文化部幫忙規劃"},{"start":9840.877,"end":9857.352,"text":"講師也好,內容也好,都非常好,但是一個缺點,都是坐在會議室上課。在文化類的課程,最重要的就是 onsite,對不起我助理拼錯了,site, onsite learning"},{"start":9858.012,"end":9881.44,"text":"要把文化課程帶到文化資產的限制要帶到文化場館的限制那才是真正的文化禁用那才是真正第一線的去理解文化這是UNESCO教科文聯合國教科文組織現在在推的文化教育所以在這幾個面向課程上換寡也換不均今天的課程裡頭"},{"start":9883.38,"end":9908.824,"text":"還有很多可以在做得更好的地方我一併提供 您要緊要回應嗎不好意思主席站起來了是跟委員報告對謝謝委員非常這個精彩跟完整的資料的一個整理那跟委員說明剛才委員所列示的那個基礎訓練因為那是給所有公務同仁的一個基礎訓練他強調的是共通職能的訓練所以在我們是一道但是共通職能文化不能是outside的喔對"},{"start":9909.184,"end":9937.961,"text":"所以我們會在這個所謂的文化行政裏面就誠如委員所提供的我們在各個類科裏面有集中食物訓練的部﹗四小時不夠啊因為文化是跨領域的是增加它的課程授課時數以及內容要真的貼近國家重要的文化政策是我們以後會再精進對那我們就是在這個集中食物訓練的部分我們就會貼近這個各個類科裏面最重要的專業職能跟專業的法令以及專業的一個政策所以我們有規劃了這樣的一個集中食物訓練這個部分是由我們保障會跟文化部來共同撥發"},{"start":9940.243,"end":9965.344,"text":"至於以後要加上這個時常的來協助好嗎?我們也會來提供文化部來做參考我後面一些東西來不及講了謝謝主席站起來一直給我壓力我要跟考試院所有的夥伴來分享文化進入一個全新發展的領域文化就在生活裡部部都是文化部人人都是文化人就要從我們公務人力的考選"},{"start":9966.505,"end":9969.546,"text":"接下來有請副總召昆齊智勳"},{"start":9997.854,"end":10026.748,"text":"主席請秘書長請劉秘書長總長早這個國家的人才如果第一流的精英都能夠進入政府的話我相信這個國家未來的發展絕對是一個正向而且能夠跟國際具有更高的競爭力過去記得在我們上一輩的年代裡面"},{"start":10029.432,"end":10054.434,"text":"幾乎女孩子要嫁男生如果是公務員的話那不得了那生活是一定得到保障而且社會的地位非常的高所以大家都希望能夠嫁公務人員所以我記得那個時候身為公務人員家庭的子弟是非常非常榮耀的一件事情李國鼎先生也說過國家有的人才都在政府公部門服務"},{"start":10055.578,"end":10063.496,"text":"未來國家的發展絕對一日千里所以我們一直很期待我們考試院能夠對"},{"start":10065.049,"end":10083.683,"text":"這些所有的我們的公職人員能夠有更多更多的不只是尊重還有在生活待遇各方面都能夠得到安定能夠得到發展這個我們一定會全力的支持考試院但是現在有一些數據我必須要跟秘書長來討論一下從我們的國考這個從104年是327000人考試"},{"start":10092.256,"end":10099.098,"text":"入企19163人入企及格率是8.39到去年到去年112年是191659人報考入企率竟然高達12.58而且去年跟前年的差距是最大的"},{"start":10116.822,"end":10144.307,"text":"在民國117年的入取率9.81到了去年是12.58短短一年之間多了將近3個百分點當然是報考人數大幅的降低104年是32萬7千人到了去年是19萬1千人所以是不是我們國考已經這麼多這些我們國家的優秀人才不願意來考試"},{"start":10146.041,"end":10174.011,"text":"是不是我們這個部分是不是考試院能夠拿出一個具體相關的辦法留住人才秘書長有什麼想法沒有跟總召報告這個問題我們很重視那因為考生就是年輕世代年輕世代的學習跟工作模式他的性格養成其實跟我們現在考試這個長久以來傳統下來的考試制度其實開始產生很大的落差"},{"start":10174.791,"end":10203.096,"text":"我們在試著去調整這個落差比如說年輕世代現在就用3C產品來寫作所以我們開始一定要趕快去推電腦化考試這樣深論題要大家用手寫對很多人來說這個很不習慣那另外一部分我們也今年的高普考也開始調整考科我們專業科目數其實工作上用不到的我們就減少這個部分可能也跟這兩年的報考人數會產生關聯因為去年有很多考生說今年要減科嘛他就今年再來考"},{"start":10204.516,"end":10231.477,"text":"所以我們可以來觀察一下今年的狀況這個部分有沒有達到一些效果我想秘書長說是不是因為考試的方式能夠做隨著時代的進步而做調整能夠吸引更多的考生來我想制度上可以這樣來推動但是我們就實際的實務上我們來做一個直接面對面的探討現在我們公務員基本的初等起薪是多少錢"},{"start":10234.396,"end":10263.273,"text":"應該三萬多但數字三萬一千四百五十塊是所以現在跟企業的我們現在基本工資兩萬七千四百七十塊事實上已經齁經過國考的公務員跟一般民間金融的人員最低最低的工資也不過短短啊四千塊的差距他不只要學有所成而且還要"},{"start":10265.711,"end":10286.523,"text":"經過國家考試之後這種待遇現在說實在三萬一千塊要怎麼生活啊所以本期在這裡特別希望考試院是國家的公器是公務人員能夠得到保障最主要的這個院會"},{"start":10289.474,"end":10317.803,"text":"所以是不是現在隨著這麼多的物價調漲指數等等我們不能再像過去啊動不動啊什麼軍人、公務員、教師啊就算達到了這個消費者物價指數累積成長率達到正負5%的時候至少4年檢討一次所以現在這個東西都是一個有非常高的不確定性而且呢"},{"start":10319.278,"end":10342.612,"text":"不管是這個待遇的調整都行政院定制或考試院會頭行政院定制或者是教育部跟這個報行政院核定所以本席現在覺得我們應該要來提出一個法制化的我們軍公教的調整的一個機制不能在公後行政院像去年"},{"start":10344.264,"end":10368.768,"text":"公務員的調薪跟退休公務員差了270幾天差了9個多月所以這個應該是同步來執行我們都會法制化沒有關係讓有考試院能夠有更多一選的空間不過本席也提供一下現在公務員第一個不能堅持那堅持所劃定的範圍非常的嚴格"},{"start":10369.898,"end":10399.248,"text":"所以在這麼微薄的薪資情況之下到底要怎麼樣維繫生存如果家裡三口四口夫妻只有一個人在工作太太可能在帶小孩這種情況之下三口之家四口之家那三萬多塊怎麼過生活那要堅持這個部分本席在這裡清楚希望考試院對公務人員堅持的部分"},{"start":10399.798,"end":10426.938,"text":"是不是應該要以適度的放寬希望你給我一份書面的報告另外現在本席把過去的一段經驗跟考試院來分享我在花蓮縣政府服務的時候對於當時軍人的招募因為在偏鄉軍人招募到我們的這些高中職來"},{"start":10428.703,"end":10453.975,"text":"來找這個願意投入軍旅生活的及我們的畢業生是主要的兵員這個募兵制最主要的來源那在過程當中45歲45歲這些軍人就要退伍那問題45歲正當這個青壯年國家不能浪費人才"},{"start":10454.977,"end":10461.02,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10481.573,"end":10504.595,"text":"在職的軍人能夠做第二戰場的訓練,當他45歲退休以後,他一方面領的退休奉,一方面也可以自己不再由公務方面的支出,讓他能夠有自己在創業,或者是投入非公職的服務行列,讓他有雙薪,能夠改善他的生活。"},{"start":10505.177,"end":10532.646,"text":"所以這樣子一方面也大大刺激了我們花蓮在地願意投入軍旅的這些年輕人所以這是過去的一個經驗本席希望考試院也針對我剛剛提出來的部分能夠也給我一個書面的一個回應本席要特別要告訴您的就是為什麼現在撲偏達為什麼這些外送員現在往往是首選而不再是來參加國考"},{"start":10536.042,"end":10547.879,"text":"現在外送員一天10個小時努力一點10個小時都是6、7萬以上的收入這種情況之下有誰願意再來認真的讀國考"},{"start":10549.729,"end":10556.135,"text":"兩年前我們修過公務員服務法的時候對兼職的部分是有一些放寬那這個部分如果今天時間比較短的話我們再把"},{"start":10571.909,"end":10598.821,"text":"什麼非營利單位什麼的你們這個限縮的範圍這個範圍太窄了你們確實要因為這個數字的崩跌是很清楚因為大家都不願意來國考我們再次強調不管是新加坡也好台灣也好一流的人才進入政府是什麼樣的一個政府未來國家的發展是指日可待"},{"start":10599.468,"end":10614.762,"text":"在新加坡的公職人員是受到什麼樣的待遇連退休都有房屋都是國家給予的我想這個部分是不是請秘書長針對本席今天所提出的這些相關的事情給我一份完整的報告"},{"start":10615.282,"end":10618.863,"text":"希望我們今天的對談是很務實的,也能夠為國家多留一些人才到公部門,讓我們的國家更好,好不好?謝謝總統的關心跟寶貴意見,謝謝"},{"start":10641.826,"end":10651.112,"text":"謝謝副總召,謝謝秘書長。依先前宣告,現在處理臨時提案共兩案,請一併宣讀,宣讀後依序處理。請宣讀。"},{"start":10652.604,"end":10680.726,"text":"臨時提案一,鑒於近日有公務人員因販賣毒品招待後交保後傳,遭處停止職權,仍可依法領取半分,違禁於其停止職務之事由為私人情責,而非因公涉案,與其職權內容無關,原提案竟請全序部針對公務人員保障法、公務員懲戒法、公務人員放棄法等法令之合理性與妥適性,進行研議,並於三個月內向司法及法制委員會提出書面報告。"},{"start":10681.607,"end":10705.063,"text":"提案委員：林思敏：雷屬委員：陳君宇：傅坤琦：翁曉琳明示提案二類以為提高國考報考人數及降低基層公務員離職率：司要請考試院依與人事行政總署原意為錄取不足額單位及偏鄉基層公務員提供涉財之可行性以改善錄取不足額及降低公務員離職率並於三個月內提供書面報告"},{"start":10706.544,"end":10729.371,"text":"2.因與人事行政總署緣異,專業家局與業界比較,使專業公務人員薪資與業界相仿之可行性,以改善錄取不足額及降低理值率,並於3個月內提供書面報告。提案委員鍾嘉斌、吳思堯、林思明。宣讀完畢請問提案委員有沒有要補充說明?林委員沒有"},{"start":10730.08,"end":10756.697,"text":"好 那請 針對臨時提案請問機關有沒有其他意見或說明來 請做部長請 沒關係 請用麥克風那臨時提案一案由的第四行 那個公務人保障法是不是建議改成公務人考積法 因為本案跟考積法有關係那個請問提案委員 就是我同意 負責考積法"},{"start":10764.454,"end":10784.586,"text":"公務人員保障法第一個是保訓會主管不是全序部主管是那第二個是因為考機法有考機免職的規定所以他也有涉及到停職的部分那我同意同意好謝謝同意修正好那麼"},{"start":10788.513,"end":10806.256,"text":"第一案我們就依剛剛將公務人員保障法改為公務人員考積法做如上修正請問各位有同意嗎?同意,同意後那麼臨時提案一修正後通過那麼對於臨時提案二機關有無要說明"},{"start":10808.373,"end":10808.493,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10837.57,"end":10847.491,"text":"那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安"},{"start":10849,"end":10871.952,"text":"我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":10877.654,"end":10892.713,"text":"離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數這樣子大概一萬三百"},{"start":10893.775,"end":10899.16,"text":"我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人"},{"start":10912.134,"end":10925.078,"text":"政府是高達22.84這是全國公務員的部分如果我們不看全國公務員我們看中央各機關的離職情況中央各機關的離職情況我手上的數據在111年度是3753人"},{"start":10931.32,"end":10931.62,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10953.735,"end":10956.917,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10983.436,"end":11007.708,"text":"秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字"},{"start":11008.769,"end":11017.356,"text":"執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有"},{"start":11033.268,"end":11034.349,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11057.109,"end":11075.636,"text":"這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查"},{"start":11076.977,"end":11096.917,"text":"照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量他可能我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員他可能剛第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的"},{"start":11098.178,"end":11100.879,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11127.704,"end":11137.61,"text":"我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整"},{"start":11138.015,"end":11158.015,"text":"那至於其他的這個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究"},{"start":11161.857,"end":11175.753,"text":"我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出"},{"start":11176.636,"end":11189.667,"text":"那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個側側疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高"},{"start":11200.456,"end":11221.205,"text":"因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些"},{"start":11222.245,"end":11222.606,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11237.986,"end":11256.316,"text":"基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施"},{"start":11257.156,"end":11280.996,"text":"那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想說立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好"},{"start":11285.738,"end":11306.246,"text":"我想請問一下原本的這個考積這四種分等方式他的問題是有出在哪裡的問題我想最大問題就在於說那個我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等"},{"start":11306.766,"end":11308.507,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11326.221,"end":11352.252,"text":"這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良"},{"start":11355.453,"end":11376.61,"text":"把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣"},{"start":11377.831,"end":11405.82,"text":"我就是擔心你列這個的話會不會有這個問題存在我們也有聽到相關的意見也要避免這樣的一個誤解其實它只是條件之一但並不是說一定要單過這個首長、副首長、主管、副主管的才能夠拿到傑出那再加上我們如果未來因為考機就是要同關的內評比所以不一定都會是首長、副首長跟這個主管、副主管我懂所以這是第10嘛它是10"},{"start":11407,"end":11411.644,"text":"我以前跟過一個檢察長然後那個部裡面那個不良好那個地檢署還要有一個缺額那個檢察長跳出來說那你打我好了"},{"start":11427.852,"end":11450.88,"text":"也有朱姓夾掌那我很佩服這樣的長官但是我知道很多長官都很有GUS很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去這對嗎應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況嘛"},{"start":11451.9,"end":11474.327,"text":"那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的"},{"start":11475.387,"end":11501.005,"text":"我知道 但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是 我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志 失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子 潛見供你們參考那再來就是"},{"start":11502.606,"end":11528.922,"text":"草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的"},{"start":11530.797,"end":11554.497,"text":"品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法治化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都一個最基本的概念就是說"},{"start":11556.094,"end":11581.914,"text":"很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑玻璃間你對我不好就是挑玻璃間這就是很奇怪我會參考委員議金再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝"},{"start":11586.016,"end":11611.962,"text":"謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長,的確很有道理,用詞要明確,謝謝接下來我們請政委員天才質詢主席、各位委員,有請全序部部長有請全序部周部長"},{"start":11618.218,"end":11647.124,"text":"部長剛提的那個不確定法律概念確實太抽象了我說考機法那個部分確實是我也是老公務員三十年公務員這個部分確實是我不知道為什麼要改這個大家已經行之永遠都已經用了都習慣了大家都已經再改成那樣可能恐怕問題更多"},{"start":11649.849,"end":11673.587,"text":"公務人員任用法第18條第一項的第三款在同官等內調任第一職等職務除志願者外以調任第一職等職務為限均仍以原職等任用且機關首長及副所長不得調任"},{"start":11674.227,"end":11690.68,"text":"本機關同職務列等以外之其他職務主管人員不得調任本單位之副主管或非主管副主管人員不得調任本單位之非主管但有特殊情形"},{"start":11699.517,"end":11726.109,"text":"報經總統府主管院或國家安全會議核准者不在此現會有發生這種情形的很多都是看起來都是中央部會或是這個午宴就是基本上是午宴因為報經總統府主管院這個特殊情形"},{"start":11727.507,"end":11755.428,"text":"這樣的條文在中華民國的法律可能只有截條但有特殊情形然後授權給這個首長這麼大的前線本來機關首長跟副首長不得調任本機關同職務類等以外的其他職務他是沒辦法他沒有別的"},{"start":11756.696,"end":11766.469,"text":"隨便找個理由但有特殊情形所以這條條文應該要修了這個部長你是學法律的"},{"start":11767.586,"end":11794.473,"text":"因為過去大概是希望讓這個制度稍微有點彈性因為有些特殊情形如果沒辦法做調整可能不適當所以保留一個這個特殊情形的條款但這個適用機會基本上很少而且特殊情形我們都尊重總統府、主管院跟國際安全會議自己的決定那只是給他一個例外調整的彈性而已原則上應該還是照前面各款的規定"},{"start":11796.299,"end":11817.177,"text":"但是但是這個就就授權太大授權太大還不是一般的所謂的不確定法律概念比這個還還更寬對不對所以這個部分這個所以我們會來檢討是不是可以去檢討這條的條文接下來"},{"start":11834.007,"end":11843.957,"text":"公務人員考試法第6條第二項為因應特殊性質機關之需要及保障身心障礙者嚴助民族之就業權益"},{"start":11846.567,"end":11851.749,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11877.911,"end":11903.245,"text":"這裏面我特別要請這個這個考選部來協助的這個是過去的副表過去的副表姚家文當考試院院長時代的副表我也特別列出來的意思是說很多的部會像外交部、僑務委員會"},{"start":11906.587,"end":11934.561,"text":"要說跟原住民的那個不完全沒有但是還是比較少一點但是他們都還是當時都還是列為而且還有提出直切原住民選特考有提出直切那當然其他的相關的部會這幾年越來越少相關的部會提出直切的"},{"start":11935.629,"end":11958.17,"text":"大部分都拿去做這個高考啊普考啊拿去那邊就以考試院來講應該沒有演出名的公務人員吧考試院包括的各前戲部這個像你們也一樣沒有嘛"},{"start":11960.29,"end":11986.919,"text":"所以我的意思是說像很多的直接有關係的像勞動部啊原住民的勞工比例很高啊像這個相關的部會農委會現在叫農業部了跟原住民的那個息息相關的很多所以這個部分對一個人員的禁用列為原住民行政特考的直切"},{"start":11988.1,"end":11989.021,"text":"好 謝謝政委員 謝謝許部長接下來有請林委員處英"},{"start":12017.577,"end":12045.876,"text":"林委員處英林委員處英不在那麼有請鄭委員鄭錢鄭委員鄭錢鄭委員鄭錢不在有請謝委員依奉謝委員依奉謝委員依奉不在那麼有請羅委員明財羅委員明財羅委員明財不在那有請吳委員立法吳委員立法"},{"start":12047.13,"end":12068.663,"text":"吳委員立法不在,有請徐委員新迎徐委員新迎,薛仁信不在,有請蔡委員易於蔡委員易於,蔡委員易於不在,有請楊委員瓊英楊委員瓊英,楊委員瓊英不在,有請陳委員冠廷陳委員冠廷,陳委員冠廷不在"},{"start":12071.072,"end":12091.101,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15721","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dd26331c83256afb8b6918ac9a81339753be8d109af184be4bd723de99e5cf96a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-13","start_time":"2024-03-13T08:31:01+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:07:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":9359,"委員發言時間":"08:31:01 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壯大臺灣："},{"start":2388.215,"end":2417.179,"text":"以下我僅就本會的報告做兩大方向跟各位委員做說明第一部分主要是針對本會的重大任務以及全球佈局的這些相關資料我會很簡略的概括讓我們新任的委員有一個概括了解第二部分是會針對我們過去半年主要的施政成果"},{"start":2417.659,"end":2428.485,"text":"以及檢要的報告給各位委員瞭解請各位委員指教首先跟各位委員說明本會基於憲法141條151條167條以及徵修條文第10條制定各項的這個僑務任務以及全球的佈局那麼從民國15年開始就設立了僑務委員會在八部二會的時代至今可以說是相當有歷史的一個單位"},{"start":2447.076,"end":2468.569,"text":"近年來由於僑務工作的發展跟國際局勢的變化有了非常多的關聯因此在未來我們的僑務的方向上面也有很多的變化主要目前的全球佈局先跟各位委員說明目前我們在海外有39個據點"},{"start":2470.43,"end":2472.832,"text":"總共在全球有超過2676個僑團有4萬多家臺商在全球設立了1000多個僑校共有24000多名的華語老師39萬名的學生目前在臺灣還在念書的僑生是3萬人已經從臺灣畢業的僑生也超過16萬"},{"start":2496.495,"end":2505.04,"text":"這是我們基本的一個數字提供委員參考其次本會在經營僑區方面希望能夠引領僑界的力量共同來為僑社服務以及壯大台灣各項工作上請委員稍微參考"},{"start":2519.281,"end":2521.263,"text":"接下來是針對我們在僑輕的重大業務上面由於我們的僑民移民的這個時間已經進入到第三代以上那麼有相當多新興的僑身力量以及僑輕力量因此我們在最近幾年努力的在"},{"start":2538.36,"end":2565.247,"text":"喬青的業務上進行各項的開發在全球目前有設立16個喬教中心在16個喬教中心都有設立愛台灣窗口作為喬青的諮詢服務同時也配合國發會等相關部會宣導就業金卡Talent Taiwan國際攬財等等的政策希望能夠媒合更多的人才與台灣各領域來連結"},{"start":2569.232,"end":2596.904,"text":"針對喬教方面我們有實體上的喬校也有數位化的喬校那麼在文化推廣和師資的培育上面本會的重大四個面向的任務我們都同仁非常積極而努力的在執行也可以說本會包括出版的各種教材都是在全球目前最受到歡迎的甚至有部分中國的喬校也有興趣使用本"},{"start":2597.424,"end":2606.88,"text":"本會所編列的教材顯見本會教材的廣度和適用程度是在海外受到大家的歡迎"},{"start":2609.045,"end":2635.991,"text":"其次在培養僑生方面從70年前開始我們的僑生政策培育至今已經超過16萬名的畢業生那麼近年來我們更提供僑生有多元的選擇跟機會那麼甚至在去年開始開辦了這個頂尖及傑出僑生獎學金希望能鼓勵國內外優秀的學生留在台灣或來到台灣"},{"start":2637.051,"end":2637.111,"text":"徐佳青議員"},{"start":2660.407,"end":2662.268,"text":"在僑商的經貿布局方面目前在全球有72個國家設有176個臺商會總計會員超過4萬家的臺商臺商對於臺灣的向心力中華民國的支持一向是不遺餘力面對各種的災變"},{"start":2680.418,"end":2684.901,"text":"我們的全球財商也是熱心最踴躍捐輸的僑團在這邊跟委員特別說明那麼近年來我們積極的來輔導僑團讓他們在各種品牌的升級方面以及在資金的這個資源服務上面我們都有非常多的精進那也在僑輕方面特別來選拔優秀的臺商、輕商讓他們能夠在事業的發展上更加的順利"},{"start":2711.684,"end":2714.007,"text":"接下來我針對過去半年我們在施政服務上面的幾個重要的項目跟各位委員做說明首先今年1月13號的總統暨立委的選舉在過去的半年來本會都有把相關重要的"},{"start":2732.268,"end":2736.232,"text":"反國投票訊息以及登記投票相關辦法等等的資訊﹚廣泛提供給我們全球所有的僑民﹚讓僑民能夠充分掌握自己公民的權益在這樣的一個積極處理之下﹚今年1月"},{"start":2752.528,"end":2757.391,"text":"申請登記反國投票的僑胞總共是4172人合準通過的是4120人反臺真是投票的人跟我們這次的投票大選的比例7乘2相距幾乎是一致的在這邊跟各位委員說明"},{"start":2775.323,"end":2778.684,"text":"其次我們在去年下半年到今天在各個僑區也積極探訪以及配合我們僑區僑團的重大活動包括在北美洲、非洲、歐洲、亞洲等地都有非常多的走訪"},{"start":2794.229,"end":2797.55,"text":"其中也包括陪同蔡總統赴史瓦地尼參加相關的邦交國的拜會以及赴美國主持兩場臺灣華語文學習中心的研討會出席菲律賓臺灣商種的交接典禮以及東南亞各國我們在聲援國的招生宣導等等那麼"},{"start":2814.776,"end":2825.36,"text":"我們的阮副委員長也在去年今年分別吩咐了美國參加所有的下令營活動以及我們在印尼加卡達舉辦的2023年亞華團體的會議積極的協助我們僑團舉辦各項的活動其次在培養僑親的交流計畫上面過去這半年來我們在青年培育上包括有"},{"start":2843.971,"end":2857.316,"text":"舉辦SENIOR FASCA交流培訓營SENIOR FASCA是奠基在過去12年的這個FASCA的一個基礎上那FASCA招收的學生是從14歲到17歲也就是主要是高中生的這個階段希望能夠培養他們有領導服務相關的精神那麼在過去這12年來首先是在美國舉辦"},{"start":2870.32,"end":2873.881,"text":"非常成功之後我們在過去3年又擴大到加拿大到澳洲、泰國等地逐漸的在舉辦那麼也都受到非常多的年輕學子以及家長的歡迎那過去12年來培養的FASCA優秀的這些僑親我們也認為說沒有繼續進一步跟他們接觸是非常可惜因此在前年我們就積極的開始在運作"},{"start":2898.687,"end":2909.919,"text":"昨年終於開始讓我們第一屆的CNF可以開始reunion大家有具有具體的一個活動的聚會跟例行的一個培訓的這個計劃那另外呢我們也舉辦了這個全球僑親高峰會讓全球各界的"},{"start":2917.126,"end":2917.146,"text":"委員長"},{"start":2947.446,"end":2954.711,"text":"這個我們各州的臺商總會也能夠進一步來輔導跟協助年輕一輩的青商更加的活絡來發展那有關於我們的喬教方面首先跟大家報告就是我們華語文深耕計畫那麼目前在美國及歐洲地區總共已經成立了84所臺灣華語文學習中心TCML是Taiwan Center for Mandarin Learning的簡稱"},{"start":2977.085,"end":2993.102,"text":"在美國有66所在歐洲有18所分布在12個國家可以說在這三四年來的時間我們在疫情當中也沒有停止這個腳步所以目前的設立情況都非常的順利那麼也進行了相關的這個招生"},{"start":2998.387,"end":3003.648,"text":"推廣的活動受到各界很大的歡迎在這當中我們也辦了幾次臺灣的華語教學國際高峰會還有智能教育產業工作坊等等的相關的做法讓國際社會對於臺灣的華語文教學的能量有更進一步的認識跟採用"},{"start":3026.451,"end":3051.006,"text":"其次在有關於僑生的培育方面在擴大及留用上以下跟各位委員報告去年半年的這個成果那麼從去年這個我們擴大僑生的這個培育方面呢稀手專班產學稀手專班去年的入學人數呢是首次超過4000人那麼較前一年2022年"},{"start":3055.228,"end":3058.51,"text":"提供更多的海外僑生升學的一個管道跟選擇目前從去年開始我們開辦的這個就業博覽會到去年11月底有相當多的"},{"start":3080.585,"end":3084.289,"text":"國內的學生及僑生運用了國內僑生的就業博覽會我們媒合了相當多的學生留在國內的企業甚至是跨國的公司來進行服務那麼到今年的1月底為止目前我們在統計上有21730人次的僑生有通過核可留在臺灣工作"},{"start":3108.973,"end":3115.218,"text":"接下來跟各位報告有關於臺商在過去半年的這個交流合作的計畫那麼主要有三個具體的方向第一個是增加我們海外臺商的這個組織發展"},{"start":3124.344,"end":3127.327,"text":"其次是聯結更多的臺商跟臺灣之間的商機合作最後是協助我們的臺商在全球的環境下因應永續發展的需求包括淨零碳排數位轉型等等的需要那麼在這方面"},{"start":3141.803,"end":3145.206,"text":"本會去年也辦理了16團總共有424人次的相關的研討會等等的活動協助我們的臺商瞭解如何因應國際淨零碳排的趨勢以及數位化的需求"},{"start":3159.11,"end":3172.729,"text":"接下來跟各位委員報告本會幾個主要的資訊傳遞的官方管道及通路由於台灣近年來數位化的發展可以說是日新月異跟上國際時代腳步那麼我們在"},{"start":3175.993,"end":3181.835,"text":"本會的官網目前是有五個大的形態類別首先是我們的僑務電子報這個是每一天我們在全球各地僑界的新聞以及國內的新聞我們都會透過這個僑務電子報的方式來提供另外幾個主要的官方平台還有LINE"},{"start":3197.519,"end":3201.522,"text":"社群網站、臉書、Twitter、YT等多元平台,我們在過去幾年快速建立提供給全球僑民可以作為資訊獲取的一個重要的頻道跟管"},{"start":3215.811,"end":3216.611,"text":"同時我們也在去年及昨天剛剛舉辦了這個分別是海外華文媒體報導大獎"},{"start":3240.317,"end":3245.699,"text":"那麼這個大獎已經進入到第4屆那麼讓所有從第一屆到現在我們從過去只有6個國家參與這個華文媒體大獎到這一次已經超過20個國家的華文媒體參與這項獎項的這個選拔希望能夠促進這個新聞華文媒體的工作能夠更有一個深度跟廣度的平台"},{"start":3267.236,"end":3283.901,"text":"其次就本會從前年底開始發行的愛喬卡向委員報告那麼愛喬卡的服務包含的有各種的跨境的這個管道的資訊那麼我們也提供"},{"start":3284.881,"end":3284.941,"text":"提供的資訊"},{"start":3301.496,"end":3303.857,"text":"相關部會的這些資源來提供我們僑胞做各項的一種消費優惠的服務那同時在海內外呢我們也有將近4000家的特約商店參與了我們這個愛喬卡的計畫那所以至今呢我們愛喬卡的會員呢申請已經有達到6萬張"},{"start":3320.863,"end":3323.865,"text":"我們在上個會期有在大院跟各委員報告希望我們在未來3年內能夠達到20萬的預期目標以目前的進度來看我們就是在目前的規劃跟預估之列那也透過各種的方式繼續加強我們的推廣"},{"start":3341.435,"end":3342.717,"text":"最後,我想團結全球的僑力來壯大臺灣跟國際的聲量。我們僑團在這幾年來可以說是非常積極的透過各種各樣形式的活動在各種國際組織開活動。"},{"start":3359.256,"end":3366.324,"text":"或開會期間替國家代言創造非常多草根民主外交的能量對於僑社積極鼓吹台灣加入WHO加入iCare"},{"start":3374.514,"end":3374.814,"text":"我們現在開始詢答"},{"start":3403.049,"end":3417.59,"text":"本會委員8加2分鐘﹚非本會委員6分鐘﹚10點30分﹚發言登記截止﹚如果有臨時提案﹚請於10點30分之前提出﹚11點左右處理﹚現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":3429.746,"end":3431.451,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請徐佳青委員長請徐委員長"},{"start":3438.294,"end":3458.893,"text":"徐委員恭喜謝謝委員長您好有一個事情要先來跟您確認一下就是說去年8月賴副總統他有代表蔡英文總統出訪友邦巴拉圭致敬團那中間他們有過境了紐約跟舊金山那請問一下徐委員長您當時是不是正式的團員"},{"start":3460.194,"end":3477.305,"text":"我不是你不是那我我想要好奇請問一下我們看一下那個公文的部分好不好就是這個公文是當時在大概8月13號14號15號16號這幾天的行程不好意思我的這個稍微糊一點喔您可以看"},{"start":3478.205,"end":3502.287,"text":"當時您在行程上面8月13號飛往巴拉圭然後8月14號15號是也停留在巴拉圭那8月16號到了舊金山晚上有出席橋宴那前面這邊寫到的是您是去美國舊金山參加一個活動然後紐約參加一個活動然後順訪舊金山還有一些其他的橋社"},{"start":3503.328,"end":3504.31,"text":"那請問一下這個8月13號到8月16號這4天是跟著賴副總統他們的訪團一起的嗎"},{"start":3512.493,"end":3536.439,"text":"跟委員報告這一份行程表呢事實上是舊的後來我們作廢了後來作廢所以後來有去嗎都沒有都沒去了對都沒有去了都沒有好都沒有去因為呢我們就是有接到這個爆料那當時我們看一下那個好看一下這個訊息這應該是來自於外交部的所謂的吹哨者來含的訊息"},{"start":3537.239,"end":3550.314,"text":"那裏面有一些情緒性委員長您就先把它略過但是總之他裏面談到的是當時你們在安排舊的您剛所稱的這個舊的行程表的時候似乎外交部在這邊他們安排訪團的這個成員有一些不滿意的地方因為他們覺得"},{"start":3555.86,"end":3582.632,"text":"您不是這個訪團的成員但是為什麼要參加這是第一個部分但您後來已經談到你們也取消這樣子的行程了可是我們從過去上面看到的是曾經有存在過所以或許是因為你們曾經規劃了8月13到8月16的行程但您並不是訪團的成員所以使得外交部的人員在安排上面他們情緒上面他們覺得是不舒服的但後來你們取消了那我們可以了解"},{"start":3583.072,"end":3583.192,"text":"其實沒有的"},{"start":3604.136,"end":3623.382,"text":"那怎麼會傳出來是這樣子?其實在橋界我們僑胞都是非常熱心所以有一些時候由於我們在準備相關的一些橋宴或過境的過程當中總是會麻煩到一些僑胞"},{"start":3624.602,"end":3646.418,"text":"那這些僑胞免不了他們不知道這些訊息是機密性的所以過程當中我們是有請僑胞所以過程是我們這邊然後要請僑胞來做一些訪團安排的一些協助但他們沒有理解到這是一個機密性的訊息所以向外面透露了然後有走漏風聲我認為他們沒有向外面透露可能是有人在打聽的時候他們並不知道這些訊息是不能講的"},{"start":3652.542,"end":3677.651,"text":"總之後來這個賴副總統的訪團他就變成是說最後的結果是有提前的泄露一些他們可能會去的資訊讓包含是媒體包含是美方他們都理解到這個情況這個跟徐委員報告一下事實上在整體的安排上我們僑委會都沒有涉入因為在這一次的八月訪團基本上從頭到尾都是以外交部安排為主軸"},{"start":3678.871,"end":3682.413,"text":"僑委會只有協助在過境兩場僑驗工作因為外交部公務人員對話提到一點我覺得比較令人質疑的是"},{"start":3693.678,"end":3712.357,"text":"他上面就寫呢上次大老闆跟這次二老闆我想他指涉的是總統跟副總統然後呢他把您稱呼不是這麼好聽請您見諒但他就說您呢在幾個月前就到處向僑包放話時間地點都報他們就很生氣認為您是有洩漏國家機密"},{"start":3712.737,"end":3730.983,"text":"甚至還提到了這一次美促銷代表超級震怒,您有聽說嗎?然後講說這麼機密的出訪資料放在僑務行程上還直接發公文來,應該是指後來你們作廢的這一份文件那他們就外交部的公務人員就很生氣那我想了解您的說法"},{"start":3734.025,"end":3760.766,"text":"這件事情我在第一時間其實也跟當時的駐美代表報告過說為什麼發生這樣的狀況事實上我們沒有人去洩露任何東西但是我知道我們同伴同仁在安排各種的首長過境或者是出訪的過程當中由於要與對方的這個國家進行安排所以這些相關的資料會提前匯給外交部"},{"start":3762.768,"end":3767.33,"text":"那所以這都是外交部自己拿到的資料,並不是僑團拿到的資料,這第一點。第二個呢,這些資料我們也從來沒有對外過,這個東西只是要請駐美的代表處去協助,原來我作為首長,我也不希望要有人到過境的時候去接機或送機等等的。"},{"start":3786.457,"end":3803.671,"text":"但是外交部很堅持說基於國家的這個尊嚴我們所有的部長級通通是要比照辦理因此我們都要固定的提供我本來就有一些安排的行程在走了跟原來的總統出訪計畫或者是副總統的出訪計畫剛好是時間有一些overlap所以像這個事情就是一個意外"},{"start":3811.397,"end":3827.514,"text":"是 因為我 我想當時的狀況可能是這樣就是您在7月21號的時候發了這份後來作廢的公文裡面有提到包含巴拉圭然後喬燕等等的這個資訊那因為我看到正本是給外交部副本有給了駐美代表處以及很多的這個辦事處"},{"start":3828.775,"end":3835.037,"text":"那我想可能他們收到了之後非常的驚訝覺得這樣子是不是大家都能夠推測那賴副總統的這個訪團的行程所以這件事情以後我就責令我們同仁說未來不要再這樣子做了因為那是第一次他們這樣子我也認為這個是有把國家機密這個複雜化的一個嫌疑所以這件事情除了跟代表處跟這個同仁都有說明以外後面我們在也沒有發生過類似的狀況"},{"start":3858.364,"end":3880.089,"text":"關於華語文學習中心相關的一些議題委員長您學中文的時候我們應該都是學助音我想請問一下我們最近力推的這個台灣華語文學習中心他們在教我們的僑報是教拼音還是助音我們是兩者都合併在一起兩者都合併那我們有掌握哪一個多哪一個少嗎"},{"start":3880.769,"end":3899.438,"text":"目前我們自己所編的教材呢我們是包容性的教材雙語教材那最少是開始是Mandarin and English就是華語跟英語的這個版本那同時有拼音跟注音符號並列那麼全部都是使用我們的教材在華語文學習中心"},{"start":3899.838,"end":3920.775,"text":"好那因為呢華語文學習中心我們了解的是說有一部分是學習漢語拼音那當然他主攻的客群因為有一部分是把華語當成是第二語言的人那他們可能想要學的應該說絕大部分都是但是有很多的像因為現在有很多的科技產業他是我們台灣的年輕人我舉例到美國"},{"start":3921.956,"end":3947.458,"text":"到美國去工作那他們家人會帶他們的小朋友一起到美國所以這些小孩子我們希望他們是可以學習注音的因為他們隨時都會回到台灣來接軌這次的事情是有僑胞跟我們反映他們在美國看到了這些開課資訊覺得很棒他們都想要讓小朋友在美國的時候也可以學中文可是他們說他在加州他們說注音跟拼音班"},{"start":3948.218,"end":3968.846,"text":"拼音班比較容易報名成功可是助音班基本上都是額滿的情況不曉得委員長對這部分有沒有了解跟委員報告我們花語文學習中心針對的對象基本上是成人18歲以上所以他並不是給那種一般的學童孩子來上課的那我們小朋友的部分是要去哪"},{"start":3969.406,"end":3969.466,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3993.882,"end":4003.885,"text":"從來我們沒有從來我們沒有遇到過因為我實際上面我很確認是哪一些的小朋友可不可以請委員提供我們資料如果有這種情況我們會非常驚喜因為報告委員在疫情前跟疫情後產生了一些變化就是說因為美國當時有這個封鎖等等的情況所以我們很多橋校呢在疫情期間就變成是有線上班那就流失了不少的學童"},{"start":4020.35,"end":4023.313,"text":"最後我想要問說我們未來有沒有規劃做線上班這樣子的一個開課模式我們現在一直都混用的就是說包括我們這個華語文學習中心跟一般的橋校如果他老師在這個課程的開設上面他們覺得學生需要進階的時候需要補充的時候我們都允許他有提供線上的教學"},{"start":4041.271,"end":4064.614,"text":"我建議可以做一些更完整的線上教學去補充一些我們的小朋友他注音不到的時候有的那他可以使用的不是老師後來說要辦而是說他入學的時候他可以拿到相關的教材那會後我會再跟這個委員長說明說大概是在哪一個區域有發生這樣的狀況那主要就是我們僑胞的小朋友那發現說他們很難去報名到注音相關的課程"},{"start":4065.735,"end":4085.211,"text":"最後我們還是希望說在拼音跟注音的比重上面因為我們中華民國主要都是以注音來做教學既然我們投入了這麼多的預算我們還是希望說在注音的部分我們可以多加的去推廣儘管他們是要學習的是第二種語言但我們還是希望能夠把我們中華民國的文化推廣出去"},{"start":4085.751,"end":4085.971,"text":"羅美玲委員發言"},{"start":4120.508,"end":4124.29,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐佳青委員長請徐委員長委員你好委員長早安今天呢要跟委員長探討的主要的議題是產學攜手合作僑生專班其實我們剛有看到委員長跟僑委會的這個努力"},{"start":4145.776,"end":4174.203,"text":"從第一屆開始我們看這個入學的人數剛開始就有281人剛剛委員長有報告就是說到我們現在第10屆112人其實我們入學人數已經成長到4069人這是一個很不容易的成績我也相信委員長跟我們的同仁都是很努力的在這個海外來做這個招生那可是呢之前因為本時有看到一份這個監察院的這個報告"},{"start":4175.003,"end":4176.764,"text":"103-105年有關畢業人數及留台人數有作出糾正當然這個時候委員長還沒有上任畢竟現在我們還是得要概括承受因為後面要怎麼繼續來"},{"start":4196.356,"end":4215.412,"text":"讓這個畢業生的人數增加然後留台的人數呢也可以這些人才都可以留下來我想這是僑委會未來要去思考的一些政策跟方針那今天本席呢就主要的還是要來跟委員長探討的是這個部分那再來我們先來看一下就是說103年我們有看到我們的這個技高端的因為這個方案是3加4嘛我們俗稱的3加4嘛"},{"start":4222.518,"end":4222.878,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4241.772,"end":4241.832,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4260.768,"end":4260.788,"text":"請問委員長"},{"start":4290.189,"end":4291.911,"text":"謝謝委員的這個指教確實我們也注意到了從103年開始籌辦的這個產息專班他在入學到最後進入這個季專畢業的人數這樣相乘起來確實是偏低"},{"start":4308.669,"end":4312.97,"text":"那麼所以過去這將近8年的時間我們因此找出了相關的一些問題那麼近年來我們已經大幅的在修正這些狀況那主要有兩個面向第一個就是說他們在高中的部分在高職端學校的培育跟他們學生的興趣之間有時候有些落差的時候那麼學生就會提早離開了因此就沒有畢業"},{"start":4337.734,"end":4351.77,"text":"那所以從高一高二到高三這個真的畢業然後能夠直接轉到那個技術型大學的這樣的比例就大幅下滑了所以最主要我們是"},{"start":4352.931,"end":4368.476,"text":"現在積極的都在輔導我們在高止端希望好不容易學生有興趣來到台灣讀書所以他們無論在生活或者就學學習的這個情況上面我們都高度的在關注希望他們可以留下來"},{"start":4369.176,"end":4372.319,"text":"完成學業後我們也讓他們知道說未來在台灣是可以持續的在這邊工作不用擔心那因為過去的政策方向上並沒有非常清楚的讓這些僑生知道說他們畢業後一定確保都可以留在台灣"},{"start":4389.717,"end":4395.121,"text":"那過去因為也我們只有適用這個叫做勞動部的評點制的模式當時是有一個限量的這個名額那隨著這幾年越來越多的僑生外籍生進來勞動部當然也從善如流一直把這個評點制的名額從過去只有1500快速擴大到6000還持續在增加希望說把這個"},{"start":4414.014,"end":4421.518,"text":"屋頂把它拿掉只要符合這個評點分數的學生過去從120分我們也已經放寬到70分就可以留下來所以近年來是有比較多的學生已經可以留在台灣用評點制在台灣工作那這項相關的制度也有可能隨著未來的政策規劃跟修法的通過會全面性的大改革"},{"start":4438.707,"end":4443.433,"text":"所以這是我們所了解學生之所以在台灣歷經7年之後而未能留在台灣繼續發展很重要的原因而且這是相當可惜的因為我們花了這麼多的精神國家的經費培育這些"},{"start":4457.39,"end":4468.672,"text":"人才卻沒有讓他們能夠留在台灣所用這是非常可惜的事情所以現在大的政策方向確實是已經做了很多修正希望未來都讓在到台灣讀書的僑生學成之後只要他們有意願我們也大力的鼓勵他們留在台灣工作或者是繼續在這邊發展"},{"start":4480.695,"end":4500.773,"text":"所以去年開始我們就辦了就業博覽會就是希望說能夠幫他們大量的媒合在他們還沒畢業前就找到適合的工作那確實經過這樣子的努力最近這段時間以來是逐漸有在好轉當中我們也期待說未來因為過去這三年還有一些是因為疫情因素的影響"},{"start":4501.434,"end":4501.834,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告業務概況．"},{"start":4523.234,"end":4546.834,"text":"臺灣﹖"},{"start":4546.914,"end":4546.954,"text":"主席"},{"start":4562.119,"end":4562.139,"text":"僑務委員"},{"start":4578.072,"end":4583.214,"text":"非常謝謝委員提供這樣的提問事實上我們確實有注意到來自不同國家由於他的華語的程度不同會很大的影響了他在這邊的學習狀況及生活適應所以近年來我們就開始從去年開始我一國一國跑完那也充分掌握一些狀況就是希望他們在離開母國前他們就可以在當地提升他們的華語程度"},{"start":4603.78,"end":4603.92,"text":"委員會委員會議"},{"start":4625.68,"end":4648.802,"text":"是,委員長剛你有提到就是說所謂的這個華語程度就讓我聯想到剛剛徐委員所提到的台灣華語文學習中心目前我們最主要的方案還是在歐美嘛對不對美國目前有66所剩下18所是在歐洲可是因為這個方案可能是針對歐美而來四年計劃嘛我所了解是這樣子那有沒有可能以後這個華語文學習中心"},{"start":4649.002,"end":4668.78,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4668.98,"end":4669.14,"text":"臺灣華語文學習中心"},{"start":4689.079,"end":4697.883,"text":"那這個計畫本身是針對成人那如果非成人18歲以下事實上我們在全球也積極的在提供各種的橋校的華語課程那所以他們所使用的教材跟師資事實上是有不同的level不同的這個做法"},{"start":4706.926,"end":4717.297,"text":"那針對華語文學習中心我們是給外籍人士作為第二外語學習的所以我們那時候的教材編準所以我們另外擬定一個方向對那針對我們亞太區我們確實也有在思考就是說做法上我們不一定是用華語文學習中心"},{"start":4723.524,"end":4726.586,"text":"但是我們近年來也在思考說怎麼樣快速提供各種的華語學習的通路所以我們已經除了近年來有做線上的課程以外然後也會定期辦這個Summer Camp讓這些學生可以在暑假或者寒假期間提早去進入學習華語因為很多國家不見得把華語列入他們必修的這個語言課程裡面英文是他們必修"},{"start":4751.501,"end":4751.521,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":4780.461,"end":4782.522,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員發言謝謝主席有請我們徐僑務委員長徐委員長黃仁恭喜謝謝"},{"start":4805.704,"end":4826.513,"text":"僑務委員的工作的重點有八項僑務政策以新南向僑生培育漁民與文化臺灣漁民與在線臺商與跨國漁民華語教材與教法"},{"start":4828.534,"end":4849.15,"text":"僑教歷史及其發展僑生教育及文化認同等重大的八項議題就以我目前有幾項重大的事件來做一個簡易的發言待會我可能要請僑民處處長還有僑商處處長跟僑生處的處長一起來"},{"start":4857.137,"end":4871.456,"text":"就以目前海地幫派首腦委普什總理亨利在普什他們下台在2月29日"},{"start":4872.958,"end":4901.909,"text":"在首都太子港號召武裝團體行動並於員警爆發了槍戰那截至目前為止已造成了數名的警員傷亡數千名的囚犯願意那請問一下在駐海這個海地大使館有沒有派駐僑務秘書有誰協助及掌握當地僑民的安全"},{"start":4903.258,"end":4924.906,"text":"跟委員報告海地的這個大使館我們並沒有派駐秘書目前根據我們的最近昨天晚上也掌握的訊息就是在海地目前我們只有駐館員的眷屬9人技術團人11人真正的台商只有4人所以總體加起來"},{"start":4926.667,"end":4950.606,"text":"只有24人在海地那目前他們所居住的地方距離那個暴動區有一段距離還上稱安全實質的狀況有沒有掌握到有因為他們都在跟大使館附近的區域裡面那如何協助他們在當地或是是離開海地的一個作業"},{"start":4951.625,"end":4972.341,"text":"因為目前的這個駐管員的這個眷屬9人跟技術團的眷屬11人那這些就算是我們廣義的所謂僑民以及我們的真正台商4人都有造冊而且都有在密切的聯繫隨時掌握說他們的希望跟這個必要的協助"},{"start":4973.281,"end":4996.505,"text":"這個就是影射未來可能我們的僑民在各海外如果一旦發生任何的暴動或槍戰如何保護到我們的僑民這是一個首要你們僑委會最重要的要務之一來保護我們的僑民因為僑民就是我們的延伸的國力所以這一點我必須要引咎於這個"},{"start":5001.987,"end":5014.515,"text":"議題來做為未來提示跟委員報告有關於僑民的部分僑委會做最多的資訊服務跟相關的關心絕對是必要的工作但是主要的這個相關有關於這個協調業務還是以外交部外管為第一線所以我們也是統一指揮外交部的你們在同步進行是的"},{"start":5028.004,"end":5053.498,"text":"那好剛剛我們聽我們羅美玲我們的委員有特別提出了評點制度是的那這個評點制度我想問一下因為現在尤其我們很多橋外的畢業生留在台灣道路阻礙重重那政府的評點制度拘留限制乃至於公司在聘用的時候"},{"start":5054.378,"end":5055.299,"text":"請問僑委會如何解決平點制度這個問題"},{"start":5066.591,"end":5089.819,"text":"首先跟委員報告這兩年來我們有7個部會幾乎是每兩個月都要定期開會協商這個相關的僑外生在臺灣就讀及工作的相關情形那去年勞動部已經也公布我們這個評點制的配額從6000又提升到7000人了那另外我們也將相關的這個計分點上面把它更放寬"},{"start":5095.804,"end":5100.797,"text":"我想這個你們要再深入的探討平點制度的這個問題"},{"start":5103.216,"end":5128.237,"text":"現在很多僑生對評點制的一個方向如果你限制以他在70%以上才可以留在台灣那對於其他很多的一些企業還有本身僑生的一個居留的問題就會限制得到上次你在去年"},{"start":5129.978,"end":5151.012,"text":"去年4月29日表示目前行政院也正在研擬新法有可能取消評點制讓更多優秀留在台灣僑生留在台灣就業這個去年你就已經提出來這個方案那這個方案應該"},{"start":5152.529,"end":5175.143,"text":"就以評點是雖然是這是勞動部制定出來的方案但是也應該要涉及到僑生的一個居留的一個權益讓他們能夠放寬所以這個部分你特別提出來這個方案那目前來講的你們所制定出來的一些新法有沒有要進一步的"},{"start":5175.728,"end":5200.666,"text":"跟黃委員報告確實您提示的方向我們都是照這樣子在執行我們也在上一次的這個七部會的會議當中我確實是有建議是不是往取消評點制的方向來做準備但要取消之前我們還有幾個配套措施一定要做所以包括國發會等相關部會要提出的這個修法的這個"},{"start":5201.747,"end":5228.376,"text":"反本要先經過大院的合定審查通過之後能夠實施這相關的配套制度才有可能同時落日所以我們很期待今年如果能夠速度快一點這些進行立法或修法的工作都可以完成那這樣我們憑典制就有可能走到一個快速日落的機會那所以目前這個還要有待我們各部會大家的這個努力跟協調"},{"start":5229.056,"end":5247.991,"text":"好 因為時間因素我們現在看一下就是現行剛剛你所提到的這些全球共有6處的僑務中心其中11處位於美國1處位於加拿大1處位於巴西1處位於菲律賓另外1處是在澳洲好 那我看了一下"},{"start":5249.246,"end":5268.303,"text":"歐洲跟非洲我們也有很多的僑民歐洲有5萬多人非洲有9000多人但是巴西3萬多人就有一個僑務中心為何我們歐洲跟非洲沒有"},{"start":5269.723,"end":5288.984,"text":"謝謝委員的提問 非洲呢因為其實鼎盛時期從1980年代到2000年我們在那我這邊建議歐洲既然有5萬多人的話是不是如果我們承購的那個所在地太貴是不是用租賃的方法"},{"start":5289.364,"end":5309.18,"text":"我們都想過要用租的但是歐洲現在非常非常昂貴我們的預算規模很低而且歐洲的僑民是很分散在20幾個國家才5萬人左右的這個所以最大的一個國家就是法國所以我們曾經在巴黎有曾經想預購但是這件事情在10年前由於預算額度不夠就開始負重了"},{"start":5310.401,"end":5312.562,"text":"那你看一看一下你評估報告是不是給我一份好不好"},{"start":5335.876,"end":5350.431,"text":"既然我們針對僑民來講的話,國內是一個非常要重視,因為它是我們國力的原生,那歐洲裡面既然有5萬多,但雖然居善在比較範圍比較大,"},{"start":5353.214,"end":5369.234,"text":"但是是不是有一個聯絡處聯絡處我們今天成購不起我們跟委員報告現在歐洲我們大概有這個派駐5個據點分別都跟我們各地的代表處沒關係你把這個報告給我那非洲呢"},{"start":5369.874,"end":5376.32,"text":"非洲目前因為僑民人數急劇下滑所以全非洲55個國家不到1萬的僑民那將近6千多的僑民是集中在南非那南非事實上現在已經不允許我們做任何新的這個購置案跟這個租賃案因為我們只有配置兩位僑務秘書分別在Yohannesburg跟Captain那配合我們的代表處跟主處"},{"start":5395.697,"end":5397.218,"text":"請沈博洋委員發言"},{"start":5433.393,"end":5436.996,"text":"好那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝謝謝你徐國瑜委員長孫委員你好"},{"start":5446.349,"end":5467.18,"text":"委員長你好我還在民間的時候常常參與國外的活動所以很常遇到僑委會當然我覺得對於國人來講畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼"},{"start":5467.76,"end":5472.045,"text":"中國也有類似的僑務工作,在2018年中國就把僑務工作弄到統戰部,也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環。"},{"start":5482.877,"end":5499.817,"text":"統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場"},{"start":5501.098,"end":5519.284,"text":"所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動"},{"start":5519.964,"end":5534.117,"text":"所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼"},{"start":5536.478,"end":5560.108,"text":"目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來"},{"start":5563.429,"end":5568.513,"text":"到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的嚴格的狀態"},{"start":5586.988,"end":5588.71,"text":"前陣子之前在加州也發生一些恐怖攻擊在教會也是針對海外"},{"start":5607.167,"end":5626.383,"text":"這一個海外的這個同胞然後呢可能長期以來對他做滲透然後呢也有一些違信的群組啊等等之類的那在長期接受這些中國製造的消息之後呢他會越來越覺得說他不只認為說什麼台灣的台獨分子才是敵人他認為在海外的台獨分子也是他們的敵人所以就會造成這樣的悲劇"},{"start":5627.043,"end":5653.047,"text":"對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢"},{"start":5653.727,"end":5664.49,"text":"被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候"},{"start":5681.375,"end":5708.737,"text":"請他們可以提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡"},{"start":5710.137,"end":5737.627,"text":"但是當然它還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢它是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的"},{"start":5737.907,"end":5765.289,"text":"那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的"},{"start":5767.211,"end":5771.713,"text":"長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來呢雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長"},{"start":5792.564,"end":5814.86,"text":"跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息"},{"start":5819.784,"end":5827.144,"text":"到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報"},{"start":5829.191,"end":5851.683,"text":"感謝委員的解釋畢竟在禮拜一跟國安局長討論的時候也發現這樣的一個現象就是他們在統戰的資源跟他們放假消息這方面的資源其實有一點此消彼長的關係在疫情的時候因為經濟疲弱對他們來講要進行這種海外的統戰變成說用經濟的錢砸下去變得越來越不容易"},{"start":5853.324,"end":5874.311,"text":"兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張"},{"start":5876.192,"end":5885.128,"text":"那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢?"},{"start":5886.549,"end":5910.646,"text":"我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案"},{"start":5911.406,"end":5914.928,"text":"因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺"},{"start":5929.974,"end":5930.114,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5950.523,"end":5970.351,"text":"議事提高警覺然後能夠隨時掌握各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會啦或者是什麼商會啦等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作"},{"start":5979.588,"end":5994.999,"text":"因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言然後以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能"},{"start":5995.419,"end":6011.359,"text":"反而可能要特別的提高警覺這是我的一個簡單的建議那接下來就是剛有講到我們海外其實大家都蠻團結的然後會回報訊息各式各樣中國的一些可以活動但是畢竟我們還是會有遇到一些我們的僑務委員他可能跟中國有一些平凡的互動甚至去參與這個活動"},{"start":6012.72,"end":6012.84,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6032.818,"end":6054.379,"text":"我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除"},{"start":6057.141,"end":6057.161,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6087.324,"end":6088.245,"text":"徐委員長徐委員長徐委員長"},{"start":6111.894,"end":6137.291,"text":"林委員你好委員長好有關於僑務的工作那麼本席其實持續因為雖然過去不在這個國防委員會但是呢我們在過去四年當中的這種所謂國會交流當中也感受到僑委會不只是照顧僑民也照顧台商其實如果以本席所收到的這個資訊可以看到其實僑委會這個管"},{"start":6139.853,"end":6158.508,"text":"海峽是全世界大概就是除了中國地區大概其他海峽兩岸三地不在我們範圍對那所以說以目前我拿到的統計數字的話我們包括僑民台商至少在美洲亞洲歐洲大洋洲跟非洲大概就超過200萬人"},{"start":6160.129,"end":6166.954,"text":"可是我們駐外包括人力的部分如果不對的話或者是有增減請委員長讓我們知道每週5個服務據點29個駐外人員歐洲的話是7個服務據點8個駐外人員亞洲9個據點17個駐外人員大洋洲是2個據點共4個駐外人員"},{"start":6180.905,"end":6184.929,"text":"那麼言下之意就是說如果駐外人員58位的話平均一位如果我們除起來啦大概要服務36000人以這樣的動能跟能量包括剛剛前面的省委員有特別提到的是還有當然有一些榮譽值的僑務委員"},{"start":6196.539,"end":6216.212,"text":"那麼以這樣的一個工作量喔當我們在面對就是除了服務之外我要關注的同樣的也是中國現在用複合式的方式來做威脅包括您剛剛也提到的我有整理出來就是巴黎華語文學校網站被中國的海外警察局疑似來做破壞中國現在"},{"start":6218.513,"end":6237.817,"text":"他如果用金錢要來收買恐怕不容易尤其是我們的僑民你有機會到其他國家去安身立命大概都不太可以用少數的金錢就能來做誘惑但是這種所謂的分化網路戰甚至於他乾脆直接就像這個國際組織所說的中國在全世界獵捕台灣人這個標題聽起來很可怕我的資訊只到2019年因為這是報紙上面所寫的"},{"start":6246.259,"end":6268.509,"text":"2016到2019就有600多起台灣人在海外被中國以強制的方式來做引渡那麼剛剛您也說了您回答身為委員的說法是說目前包括你們的報告也並沒有明確的指出來那就是當你們在面對中國威脅以利誘甚至於像強迫的手段那麼在2019年之後到現在"},{"start":6269.75,"end":6286.859,"text":"那麼有沒有更多或減少尤其是他們的所謂反間諜法或者是相關的國家的反分裂法或愛國主義的相關的法規之下還有沒有更多這樣子海外我們的僑民或台商無緣無故的就被帶回中國去問訊"},{"start":6289.637,"end":6305.688,"text":"確實過去這兩三年有發生過那因為中國的反分裂法跟相關的這個緊縮以後甚至我們有不少的臺商或僑民如果直接拿美國護照臺灣護照這個入境到中國去的時候會接受比較嚴格的盤查那包括他們的手機筆電等等"},{"start":6316.836,"end":6337.992,"text":"甚至身上戴的書籍都有可能會成為被查扣入罪的一個罪名那所以我們確實過去有幾個案例是發生了那另外剛剛提到說那個獵捕主要是這些其實不算是真的僑民因為有絕大多數是過去因為全球的這個詐騙集團他們也是在台灣吸收了不少的年輕人"},{"start":6345.177,"end":6345.857,"text":"所以說如果是委員長所提的話"},{"start":6363.226,"end":6391.793,"text":"媒體所報導的這個可能他也是犯罪的嫌疑人而且成為中國詐騙集團的下線或共犯所以才會導致有這樣的案件出現但是近年來發生比較多的就是我們的僑民如果說是拿著美國護照進入到中國的時候那因為你有具有台灣身份很容易就會被嚴厲的盤查或者是被中國高度關注是吧是這個意思確實是這樣而且不單單只有美國護照現在近年連歐洲護照部分的也有"},{"start":6392.213,"end":6400.758,"text":"好 那麼也就是言下之意中國對於台灣的監視、滲透甚至於統戰甚至於借選的這個部分其實時有所聞那我們知道現在不再急投票成為一個在野黨積極要來推動的一個部分剛剛您說了除了兩岸三地不關僑委會"},{"start":6412.765,"end":6437.692,"text":"那麼其他地方如果要進行投票的時候我不知道僑委會在業務上是不是要協助但是我們現在防範於未然我們就先來討論一下以行政院現行的版本強調的是全國性的投票而且是以台灣為主也就是我們國內為主但是在野黨的版本他是說只要涉及在中華民國自由地區者皆可以依本法來申請不在籍投票不在籍投票的方式就是有通訊投票跟設置特別投開票所"},{"start":6440.734,"end":6448.772,"text":"剛剛我特別強調了就是以目前僑委會的人力來講的話全球也只有58位然後如果說以"},{"start":6450.01,"end":6474.955,"text":"現在在野黨的版本那其實不只中國台商喔全球台商台僑應該也都適用吧那如果是這樣的話僑委會有沒有思考過要怎麼樣來協助通訊投票跟設置投開票所因為如果是以在野黨所舉的例子韓國也可以在海外通訊投票可是人家是設置在人家的領事館裡面喔"},{"start":6475.715,"end":6480.477,"text":"那如果是以我們現行的我們現在看到的僑委會或外交部所設的據點的話我想請問一下僑委會有沒有現在也開始來思考一下怎麼樣協助全球台商台僑來進行所謂的投票因為我特別看了一下你們這一次的報告當中第7頁主要都是鼓勵僑民反台投票維護這個自己的參政權嘛對不對對那"},{"start":6504.509,"end":6510.572,"text":"言下之意是過去你們也從來沒有思考過有一天全球台商台橋要進行全球總投票包括你認為通訊投票可行嗎還是要設置全球的投開票所"},{"start":6520.22,"end":6542.898,"text":"跟委員報告當然站在海外僑民的方便性來說過去確實有部分僑民一直有所期待能夠用不在籍投票的模式但是他們另外一方面也提出了疑問就是說那這個公平性安全性的問題他說因為不同國家如果是在比較民主自由的地區國家這一方面的執行上當然沒有太大的這個挑戰"},{"start":6549.583,"end":6560.709,"text":"可是確實有很多國家並不是在這樣的一個基礎上面只有享有部分民主跟自由的區域甚至很多威權的地區是無法執行的我們國家的立法一定要有一致性一旦法通過必須要能適用全體的國內外的僑民或者國民"},{"start":6572.256,"end":6585.085,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下確實也有部分僑民有提出那樣的質疑害怕說原來臺灣這30多年來建立的民主制度信任已經逐漸鞏固的狀況下會受到一些可能的挑戰所以確實兩種聲音都有也有贊成的也有反對的那過去因為"},{"start":6597.874,"end":6603.297,"text":"海峽兩岸三地不是我們的管轄範圍但是全球我舉例的就超過200萬人而且我想詢問的是這200萬人坦白說僑委會並沒有一個確定的名冊跟情況而且跟委員報告我們在全球有真的駐外管的"},{"start":6615.282,"end":6615.342,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6635.044,"end":6652.21,"text":"在部分國家無法執行的話那這個對於部分公民的這個權利相對的他是受到侵害這也會呈現出不公平的一個狀態所以到目前為止我們就是只有在總統副總統這個選舉的狀況我們會把相關資訊盡可能充分提供給民眾歡迎他們如果沒有戶籍在台灣者就是進行這個登記在原戶籍所在地然後在"},{"start":6663.414,"end":6665.296,"text":"投票日當天反國投票這樣的模式成本確實是增加了不少不過僑胞基於熱愛自己的祖國還是會有非常積極的行為目前我們所得到的訊息是正反兩面都有"},{"start":6678.752,"end":6693.945,"text":"好本席今天的質詢其實只是針對不在籍投票的疑慮當然我也知道喬介朋友有些人會希望說哎呀這個不在籍投票如果實施那真好因為他們可能不一定需要一趟飛機回來甚至有時候會說搶不到機票但是如何能夠確切的來執行包括您剛剛所提到的境外通訊的投票到底要有郵寄嗎如果不用郵寄的話包括連立法院"},{"start":6705.134,"end":6730.114,"text":"他所做的報告都說電子投票是最不安全的最有可能駭客入侵或其他方式來動手腳那如果你是設所謂特別的投票所我們又得要有領事館那麼就像您剛剛所提的一個法令定下去要通體適用眼光不能只放在中國的台商全球有更多的台商那麼如何的能夠在安全性"},{"start":6731.499,"end":6747.426,"text":"自由民主而且不受脅迫底下讓他們協助完成投票我希望未來在討論的時候其實僑委會也要一併思考要把你們的相關意見也呈現出來我覺得這個才是真正公平而且真正的維護投票自由"},{"start":6748.686,"end":6748.987,"text":"馬文青委員徐委員長"},{"start":6780.47,"end":6802.135,"text":"馬昭薇恭喜謝謝委員長早安好剛剛非常多的委員其實都有提到不同面向的問題那今天的業務報告當然也很期待其實我們在去年通過的預算裡面今年是希望可以看到他的整體的一些工作重點還有我們有什麼樣子的一個目標取向那可是我們在報告裡面其實"},{"start":6807.776,"end":6807.796,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6826.775,"end":6829.837,"text":"東南亞國家其實包括我們所有的學生喬生還有很多的海青班的來源甚至有很多的移工其實跟我們關係都是更密切的尤其包括越南印尼緬甸這幾個國家是主要的一個來源那在這些區域我們"},{"start":6849.446,"end":6860.962,"text":"記得在之前的會期也跟委員長探討過就這些部分我們應該要怎麼樣的強化其實我們在今年的業務報告裡面其實好像還是沒有看到"},{"start":6862.985,"end":6869.547,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個華語文學習深耕計畫基本上是一個4年的中長程期的計畫那剛剛我也提到說是緣起於2020年的臺美交易倡議所以當時框定的這個目標是先以歐美國家那在這個中長程期計畫明年就要告一段落前我們明年就要提出新的評估要不要擴大在其他的各個國家地區來辦理"},{"start":6890.154,"end":6894.758,"text":"那目前因為隨著我們執行的績效狀況是在軌道上所以很有可能未來是確實會擴大那至於在非歐美國家地區尤其是亞太地區確實很多新興的業務跟臺灣不管是移工、僑生各項交流的這個密切程度是越來越提高那我們也確實在還沒有這項計畫擴展以前有一些替代的方案在執行希望說能夠"},{"start":6919.276,"end":6922.418,"text":"：近一步提供給我們在亞太地區尤其是亞洲地區的這些僑生更多的一些學習的管道跟這個資源那這部分我們在我們的僑教跟這個我們包括僑商僑團臺商也都協助我們在這一方面執行各項的任務所以我們今年我們是具體的用在"},{"start":6944.889,"end":6945.649,"text":"我先提醒一下,因為這些內容之前也有講過也有探討過"},{"start":6972.359,"end":6993.871,"text":"不過今天為什麼要特別再提出來是因為委員長有提到台美教育倡議畢竟教育倡議這是教育部的工作我們僑委會最主要的設立宗旨是要照顧我們所有的僑胞而不是做這樣的事情所以如果我們在有限的預算之下照理說我們應該就我們現階段比較有輕重緩急怎麼樣才是我們的主要的一個"},{"start":7000.815,"end":7022.893,"text":"業務方向這個是一定要拿捏得準的那因為他的整筆預算是連續性的我先在這邊做一個提醒我們希望未來其實是針對包括現在所有的大學去海外招生去找我們的僑生其實也都是以東南亞為最主要的來源包括我們僑委會提供的數據資料也是"},{"start":7026.115,"end":7026.556,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7045.279,"end":7049.28,"text":"在這個計畫更是在112年到115年4年的時間我們編列了高達36億的預算這在僑委會其實是不小的預算是的我們希望可以看到怎麼樣的成果或者滾動式的一個修正什麼樣讓它達到它的一個效益還有海外華語文學習深耕計畫其實就這幾個項目因為剛剛我們有提到"},{"start":7076.149,"end":7080.753,"text":"培育及留用僑生計劃委員會提供本席資料顯示在119年留用一班僑生及產息僑生專班必須達到4.7萬人"},{"start":7096.291,"end":7102.312,"text":"海青班也要達到1.3萬人本席想請教委員長這個目標是累進人數還是一年的流台人數累進的是累進的所以其實他的實際成效並不像我們呈現的這樣子的一個數字嘛對不對因為他留下來以後他就會持續一直留下來了所以這個一定是每一年繼續增加上去也不一定因為你們給我們看的好像是分開的而不是累進的人數"},{"start":7125.817,"end":7131.161,"text":"所以就這樣子如果是累進的那我們現在截至113年一月留台工作的僑生是21730人次就是21730人次所謂的人次是什麼你留台的人就是人因為你到底是留了多少人因為我們是你在計算在給資料的時候都是以人計算那人次如果一個人他在一年內"},{"start":7154.52,"end":7172.959,"text":"在臺灣工作可是他換了6個工作10個工作那你也算人次那這樣子的一個算法他是怎麼定義的我詢問的確實是非常到位我們有注意到就是說有些僑生因為他可能在某個工作的企業裡面"},{"start":7174,"end":7174.901,"text":"目前111年留下來的人數是5920人那到112年留下來的人是7133人"},{"start":7200.746,"end":7217.823,"text":"有7000多對有7000多所以其實在這裡跟你們寫給大家看的兩萬一千多這高達三倍這個是累計是把每一年全部加總的因為你在花錢你在招收人"},{"start":7218.524,"end":7218.544,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7240.385,"end":7242.908,"text":"不過這套是因為配合這個評點制未來如果評點制這個取消以後就不會有類似這樣的狀況評點制是一個可能在留或離開這樣子的一個做法可是我們現在說的是我們看的是業務的成果"},{"start":7259.165,"end":7263.79,"text":"因為你今天編了這樣的預算可是你到底達到什麼樣的成果這才是我們今天討論的重點所以我們希望以後提供的業務資料的報告應該要據實讓大家更清楚的知道狀況因為包括像剛剛有很多委員提問的一個狀況其實委員長也說明的非常清楚"},{"start":7278.666,"end":7295.438,"text":"可是你們在業務報告上面根本沒有呈現我們在業務報告上面看到的好像都是我們做得非常好成果非常的到位然後這個好像可以越來越好的感覺可是我們看到數據資料好像也不是這樣如果說我們112年的預算其實我們編了5億5千萬我們是留用314人嗎其實"},{"start":7305.367,"end":7310.508,"text":"是學年度還是年314人是一年還是跟委員報告那112年就是去年那我們預計是留台的學生是3544人那其中事實上你們留的就是314人"},{"start":7332.117,"end":7332.94,"text":"總共是7133人還欠314人阿"},{"start":7338.44,"end":7350.526,"text":"現在我們現在特別提出來的就僑生專班也好海青專班也好或者你其他的你們做的這樣子的一個紀錄編的預算非常高現在我們委員這個呈現上可能會造成誤解我瞭解那我們稍後把這個比較好的呈現方式再提供如果你編了5億5千萬你只留了314人留用率只有6%甚至平均每人分配到175萬"},{"start":7365.273,"end":7365.493,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7385.641,"end":7392.209,"text":"政策去做負責所以我們只能在這個過程當中你給我們的那個資料報告那個314年留用的他是代表他是7年前入學的所以他是105年的時候要看那時候的入學人數那時候入學人數沒有那麼高"},{"start":7402.722,"end":7402.942,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7425.393,"end":7425.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7441.83,"end":7441.85,"text":"謝謝馬委員,謝謝"},{"start":7468.476,"end":7473.458,"text":"謝謝馬文清委員發言接下來由牛希廷委員發言謝謝主席委員長有請有請我們習委員長"},{"start":7490.991,"end":7491.471,"text":"僑務委員恭喜"},{"start":7509.295,"end":7527.796,"text":"我不敢自評但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步"},{"start":7531.039,"end":7539.528,"text":"謝謝齁這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦"},{"start":7540.657,"end":7541.758,"text":"當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者"},{"start":7564.221,"end":7567.99,"text":"我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人要調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴"},{"start":7574.565,"end":7574.725,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告"},{"start":7598.234,"end":7603.999,"text":"那後來事情就這樣爆發嘛,10月開始召開記者會,顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的不是委員,因為當事人有其他的訴求,那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到,因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嘛,其實"},{"start":7618.753,"end":7646.352,"text":"我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本其實是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以盡效由我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":7646.932,"end":7666.008,"text":"我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧"},{"start":7668.189,"end":7679.714,"text":"原則上跟委員報告一個主任一個副主任怎麼分離呢我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間"},{"start":7695.6,"end":7702.949,"text":"加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把加害人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認"},{"start":7711.179,"end":7737.849,"text":"那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那那裡就變成這個業務沒有人執行我顯然當然這個已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠你能夠"},{"start":7740.27,"end":7753.94,"text":"張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為嘛也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞嘛你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎"},{"start":7756.141,"end":7773.231,"text":"加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考機問題我只問加害人的考機問題加害人的考機也沒有很好"},{"start":7776.633,"end":7797.371,"text":"他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員我是不知道社會當中怎麼看這件事情,但是從我們如果真的要落實性平三法,要嚴懲性騷擾的加害人的話,這樣子顯然是輕輕放下吧?"},{"start":7798.846,"end":7801.448,"text":"這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能簽核而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的"},{"start":7818.816,"end":7820.978,"text":"委員我現在提醒你現在就是這樣你這整個制度上其實"},{"start":7836.031,"end":7850.058,"text":"從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講就是針對我們的外館你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾的狀況的時候來講你在外館本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛是因為你距離遙遠這第一線的館長都要做處理沒有錯對嘛"},{"start":7852.639,"end":7853.64,"text":"委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告"},{"start":7877.941,"end":7895.509,"text":"我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說北岸現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫做性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛"},{"start":7896.269,"end":7897.41,"text":"委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?"},{"start":7920.562,"end":7938.762,"text":"我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人"},{"start":7939.919,"end":7941.921,"text":"委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法"},{"start":7959.475,"end":7983.714,"text":"平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人是我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的"},{"start":7986.736,"end":8006.154,"text":"也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿"},{"start":8006.434,"end":8006.795,"text":"謝謝您,謝謝牛委員"},{"start":8023.928,"end":8028.633,"text":"謝謝就剛剛的部分我們還是請委員長這邊可以提供相關的資料因為其實首長還是有考機的決定權包括打兵等所以如果說這個會造成比較大的傷害我相信我們大家再來重視這個案子好不好到時候再請委員長也提供資料給我們委員會接下來請"},{"start":8050.171,"end":8053.872,"text":"政政前委員不在請陳冠廷委員發言請委員長"},{"start":8076.196,"end":8097.934,"text":"陳委員恭喜謝謝謝謝委員長那委員長我們今天就是主要討論撤僑跟搭僑這兩個重要的這個計畫是我想委員長應該知道說我們的邦交國海地最近出現幫派的動亂對那其實美國大使館已經在週一開始撤離館內的非必要人員還有眷屬那德國歐盟代表"},{"start":8098.675,"end":8127.094,"text":"也紛紛都是起程都是去多米尼加所以我想要請問委員長目前此時此刻在海地的僑民有多少人我們駐海地的管員眷屬9人另外是技術團的眷屬11人真正其他的僑民只有4人只有4人所以說如果相關如果必須要做撤僑的動作的話應該都已經有完善的準備了嗎對"},{"start":8127.834,"end":8151.147,"text":"這些相關僑民的聯繫跟這個保持暢通的這個管道都有在我們住處達成因為我們沒有僑務秘書所以是外交同仁兼我們相關的聯繫工作所以說通常這撤僑的計畫跟撤僑的行動是由外交部還是由這個僑委會來去評估是外交部是外交部外交部統籌你們會提供相關的這些資訊你們自己的評估的方式是我們會提供資訊給外交部"},{"start":8152.688,"end":8160.288,"text":"我們今天講海地但是其實在我們的許多邦交國有些時候政局比較不穩定的時候都有做好這樣子的撤僑的計劃嗎?"},{"start":8161.936,"end":8175.728,"text":"我相信過去外交部都有一套SOP的作業那麼在各個國家如果有發生什麼變故或者是緊急的狀態就會啟動這個SOP的作業那僑委會也都會密切的跟駐外管處還有我們外交部保持這個訊息暢通的溝通"},{"start":8184.436,"end":8203.296,"text":"外交部是主責,僑委會也是一起協同,因為合屬辦公,我還是要強調,有些時候在一些比較,我們的能源資源能源比較不夠的地方,他可能變成說我們會跟第三國需要來協助,這方面過去有沒有這樣的經驗,跟怎麼樣把它"},{"start":8203.676,"end":8218.172,"text":"對當然是有的當然是有的以去年曾經在哈馬斯攻擊以色列之後那以色列的僑民就有部分的人搭著我們外交部所安排的"},{"start":8219.492,"end":8236.201,"text":"我們沒有辦法直接派專機所以當時是跟日本大使館合作一起就把我們的僑民順利的送回所以類似這樣的一種跟第三國合作的計畫是有的曾經也在疫情期間我們也有派過專機在孟加拉印度這個地區曾經我們的專機也幫忙接了部分的"},{"start":8247.107,"end":8269.876,"text":"日本僑民回到這個比較安全的區域裡面我想這就是臺灣can help的一些重要的意義啦那也是希望說僑委會當然是以我國的國民為主但是同時當我們在協助其他國家的時候透過正面的宣傳也讓更多我們的友邦知道我們做的努力那這方面就是不要說只有外交部僑委會也可以來做一些協助跟宣傳"},{"start":8271.297,"end":8272.919,"text":"委員報告,另外我們在全球有設立了100多個緊急疾難救助協會"},{"start":8287.619,"end":8306.956,"text":"這目的是在我們有限的住外人員跟官方系統之外我們也藉由我們僑界的能量我們一些旅外國人無論是旅遊探親遊學經商等等如果遇到了車禍或者什麼等等的意外狀況的時候第一時間可以在當地找到我們的這些團體來協助我希望這個宣傳更大一點"},{"start":8314.822,"end":8340.253,"text":"致少是在過去自己的求學或者是就業經歷裡面通常大家第一線想到時間就是打外交部當然外交部的人員派駐的人員其實是一定不夠的沒有辦法這樣隨時隨地所以這個部分我是希望委員長能夠把這個相關的業務再做宣傳好的我們也會把這個相關的資料送給委員重點是宣傳讓我們各個國家特別是在比較有治安疑慮的地方一定要這樣子的資訊來協助那再來我們來講一下搭橋的計畫"},{"start":8345.721,"end":8355.307,"text":"前幾天也跟委員長討論過搭橋計劃首先我先肯定透過搭橋計劃我們包含是橋屋延行營、搭橋計劃、台灣學習體驗、台灣觀光團等等"},{"start":8359.77,"end":8359.91,"text":"主席"},{"start":8377.665,"end":8397.69,"text":"有沒有打算把它擴大?要不要提供更多的僑胞資源?因為我想之所以這樣講是因為在疫情的規模疫情的之前規模是挺大的我們這邊掌握是18個國家32個城市有200多個名額那現在是5個城市60多個名額現在有沒有計畫恢復或者是擴大?"},{"start":8399.511,"end":8423.104,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實疫情前我們有200多個名額那當時因為是各個不同路線的僑胞做home stay的這個做法也就是說這個部分的cost其實都是我們僑界自己吸收了那疫情期間事實上由於很多邊境的控管那這個計畫我們就暫時沒有執行"},{"start":8427.726,"end":8442.473,"text":"疫情後我們也跟很多僑界繼續做調查詢問他們願不願意繼續做類似這樣的作業大家因為疫情期間有了一些顧慮就是說在自己家裡在host的過程當中擔心有一些風險"},{"start":8443.933,"end":8467.014,"text":"所以因此在疫情後我們重啟這個搭橋計畫的時候就沒有辦法照比照像之前那樣子可以有這麼多條路線跟這個到僑胞家裡的模式因此我們在有一樣的預算規模裡面只能做收回來全部由我們來自行辦理那變成這些年輕人他就是住在旅館了"},{"start":8467.935,"end":8493.416,"text":"那這個cost勢必就是會往上走所以我們的名額就變成下修那委員非常關心這個議題我們也了解我們也很期待說國內有這麼多優秀的大學生有興趣能夠多了解我們的國際社會跟僑務發展的這個趨勢我們也很願意來培養年輕人那未來如果我們預算可以擴增我們也會增加名額"},{"start":8494.229,"end":8494.409,"text":"主席"},{"start":8510.12,"end":8510.32,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8530.838,"end":8552.81,"text":"謝謝委員關心,我也跟委員報告最新的進度狀況我們去年在疫情後首度恢復舉辦我們分了4條路線,總共是64個名額當去年來報名的人數是200多位,所以互取率大概25%但是今年,我要跟委員報告,今年不知道為什麼"},{"start":8554.091,"end":8563.862,"text":"我們的宣傳管道的這個更普遍以後今年居然2800個來登記非常好非常好我們繼續講好不好不然這個等一下委員長再給我書面不然來不及問完就沒有辦法把這一個計畫把它再擴張嘛就是報名資格嘛我們現在提到的搭橋計畫資格書審面試"},{"start":8574.171,"end":8589.376,"text":"今年當然這樣很好但是我們不希望說只是發公文給大專院校所以宣傳的部分特別要知道說其實很多大專院校都集中在北部那我們自己的希望是希望說能夠讓更多的機會比如說做外交也好搭橋計畫也好不要只鎖定在資源豐富的地方"},{"start":8589.616,"end":8589.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8611.787,"end":8628.102,"text":"我們每年在徵選的時候也會考慮英語性的問題徵選我知道大家對英文很重視可是必須也要知道我們的特殊性有些雲江地區的孩子們他們在接觸語言的話可能沒有辦法達到這樣的標準可是他們有他們的特色也拿比方說我們吸口"},{"start":8628.823,"end":8629.543,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：完整會議徐佳青報告業務概況：完整會議"},{"start":8654.65,"end":8654.87,"text":"我們會來促進交流"},{"start":8674.058,"end":8674.739,"text":"王鴻威委員發言"},{"start":8702.179,"end":8725.374,"text":"好,謝謝主席我請一下徐佳青請委員長那,喬生處是不是?喬生王處長好,處長也一起來好,委員長、處長有一點事情要特別在這邊反映一下"},{"start":8727.212,"end":8741.04,"text":"我們僑友會有辦理僑生專班嘛對不對對產息專班對產息專班其實這是一個算是蠻好的一個政策那當然現在這個政策出現了一些問題那我先我有時間再講因為我今天的時間有限"},{"start":8742.501,"end":8759.455,"text":"但是我要講一個個案這個個案呢其實就凸顯了一些問題原來在我選區有一個就是高職的學校那麼他們其實也有參加這個僑生專班而且呢這樣的一個職校呢"},{"start":8759.935,"end":8783.288,"text":"他跟我們國內的一個很大的這個車廠他事實上是有一個產學合作那他們其實這幾年來那個非常好很多學生呢透過這樣的產學合作然後都可以拿到這個在求學的時候呢他們就有一些收入而且呢在就是畢業之後他就可以直接進入這個大的汽車廠去工作"},{"start":8783.968,"end":8808.761,"text":"好那這個學校呢他們也有在參加這個我們的僑生專班的這個計畫那麼因為他們有來自於緬甸的僑生那後來就緬甸的華僑跟他們反應說為什麼不能來你們學校呢是因為僑委會把緬甸很多的學生通通都刷掉了後來我們所了解就是緬甸學生的大概一半都在你們的緬甸"},{"start":8810.622,"end":8813.106,"text":"面試的時候在審核的時候全部都刷掉那這個當然我們是幫學校來詢問是不是什麼樣的問題"},{"start":8820.869,"end":8843.415,"text":"結果你們緬甸組的應該是姓林吧你們林組長好大官威啊因為我們辦公室我們都做為民代表我們做這樣的選民服務學校然後要收學生做這樣的那個僑生專班不是很好的事嗎你們這個林組長竟然立刻打電話給校長標罵一個小時啊"},{"start":8846.836,"end":8863.667,"text":"說你們找立委來施壓啊什麼等等之類然後甚至說你們會這樣子搞來搞去是不是你們有收人力仲介費啊反正這話都講得非常非常的難聽沒關係這個我現在要跟你反應啊因為我覺得這麼一個單純的事情怎麼會你們一個組長你們現在住外是怎麼都在當皇帝嗎"},{"start":8873.439,"end":8898.013,"text":"委員讓我等一下去了解一下狀況對所以我一定要請你們去了解的狀況第一個緬甸的這個委員這個學校因為他是今年第一度首次參加我們這個計畫所以他可能對於我們的一些作業不是那麼了解這都有可能這都有可能事實上我們後來回覆給學校就說你可能某些地方有誤解因為我們有來詢問有些地方有誤解還怎麼樣"},{"start":8902.148,"end":8917.095,"text":"我們才就是這種是非常正常的學名服務讓學校知道這個狀況是什麼但是沒想到你們組長立刻打電話來罵罵校長然後還說你們是不是在收人力仲介費怎麼可以這樣侮辱學校呢所以我在這邊"},{"start":8918.095,"end":8946.497,"text":"第一個我要特別要求就是請我們僑委會了解一下就是這一次的緬甸僑生他為什麼會被刷掉這麼多那當然因為你們有幾個標準嘛你要有這個華語的能力就是什麼閱讀啦基本策略基本能力然後不然的話你就要去上一些你們指定的這些機構你要上240個小時的華語課程那我所了解是這些來"},{"start":8949.032,"end":8960.681,"text":"來申請的他們是有符合至少有240個小時他們有去上課那這次為什麼會刷掉這麼多我想第一個你們可以了解一下第二個"},{"start":8961.857,"end":8985.359,"text":"你可不可以了解這個林組長是怎樣他是皇帝嗎這麼兇來標罵我們的校長校長想了解一下事實上是家長會想了解一下對不對然後還說人家什麼學校有沒有在收什麼人力仲介費嚴重侮辱學校我覺得如果有這樣的情勢你們可以去了解我們先去了解一下看看因為林組長是很客氣的人"},{"start":8986.72,"end":8994.286,"text":"來他對你客氣啊看上不看下啊他對我們同仁也都很客氣而且他過去在海外服務的績效也都是很受僑胞的好評我剛講我如果今天我剛講我其實不然的話我就會說僑委會你們回答我什麼東西嘛對不對我們也如實的去跟學校跟那個家長會也去講了其實基本上我們是很平時的但是接下來"},{"start":9011.38,"end":9011.901,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9026.317,"end":9048.136,"text":"你們其實也一直在宣揚說報名人數創新高創新高那麽確實那我剛講人家真的來報名了你又去把人家刷掉刷掉人家來詢問你們要去罵人家學校但是你可以看監察院在去年底的報告裡面特別提出了我們產西裝班的成效"},{"start":9048.937,"end":9065.768,"text":"其中我覺得有幾個這也是值得我們去了解改進我剛講說你說光是報名人數創新高但是呢第一個他的畢業率低畢業率低為什麼他會畢業率低呢是學生的水準真的很差嗎"},{"start":9067.229,"end":9092.923,"text":"還是呢今天在整個的課程設計裡面是因為他可能太多的實作而使得他在真正的學業的部分他有大幅的壓縮我覺得這個都應該去了解因為我們光是去做大內宣說創新高第一個為什麼畢業率低好第二個重點來了我們其實是希望擴大我們的產業的人力的禁用然後再加上為什麼學校也都會"},{"start":9094.003,"end":9113.437,"text":"委員會希望能夠多一點學生大家都知道少子化大家都希望學生能多一些所以你們力闢管道力闢學生的來源學校當然很歡迎但是呢我們也出現了這個產息專班的流台率也偏低以這樣子來看呢就是以監察院的報告但我他這邊還沒有更更這幾個的"},{"start":9114.318,"end":9116.819,"text":"各位委員報告這個是早期開始開辦的時候當時對於那個華語的程度沒有做一定程度的篩選所以剛開始辦的時候確實有不少學生來了台灣一年兩年就適應不良語言一直沒有辦法提升以後"},{"start":9134.726,"end":9161.581,"text":"對就離開了所以這也是為什麼後面我們的這個流台的這個繼續工作的比例偏低對所以這兩年來我就已經非常高度重視就是說為什麼在第一線雖然他好像有受了240個小時可是每一個人學習程度不一樣這是為什麼我們需要面試面試跟他談一些基本的問題的時候就可以了解他有沒有真的懂還是說他只是做一個表面我有上課我有上課有些人學習進度比較慢有的人比較快"},{"start":9163.962,"end":9173.668,"text":"所以他今年沒有錄取沒關係明年他程度提升了我們還是會錄取他這個我都了解其實我們本來回復學校也是如此所以我剛剛講是後面的動作那請也請我們那個這是不是喬森處辦的業務對不對因為他這個監察院確實他是停留在105年"},{"start":9182.174,"end":9210.48,"text":"也請你們把相關這幾年的資料也能夠給我們辦公室一份讓我們知道如果有改進改進的成效如何因為否則的話整個流台流台的比率還不到四成而且後來變成三成後來變成兩成多連三成都不到那真的是太偏低了好不好那你把這個相關的資料再補給我們辦公室好委員這個最新可能要到今年的六月因為他們才畢業畢業以後才會有最新的你先把去年啊去年的資料"},{"start":9211.761,"end":9226.86,"text":"我們是7年嘛所以學生呢現在最近一起畢業的就是105年入學的去年畢業那今年的畢業生呢是106年入學的今年才會畢業所以這最新資料要等到5月到6月才會出現"},{"start":9235.109,"end":9257.093,"text":"謝謝接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳謝依鳳委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在請吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在請徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在請邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在請蔡易瑜"},{"start":9260.174,"end":9265.543,"text":"蔡易瑜委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":9268.342,"end":9284.129,"text":"我們已登記質詢的委員．除不在場外．均已發言完畢．報告及詢答結束本日的會議有陳永康委員．洪森漢委員．林義軍委員．王定宇委員提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩周內答覆"},{"start":9290.231,"end":9300.238,"text":"本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供本日會議到此結束"}]}},{"id":"15720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15720","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead26331c83256afb86c0396a52a6677963be8d109af184be4fbf9c907929d97065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai 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部分請相關機關於一週內另引書面答覆並複製本會通過臨時提案二案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1915.209,"end":1928.603,"text":"請問我們各位委員上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有好那我們議事錄就確定那我們繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請先讀"},{"start":1931.789,"end":1933.77,"text":"政府總預算決議．檢送海洋保育署決議．海洋保育業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"},{"start":1961.221,"end":1985.138,"text":"三、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況並備質詢。 討論事項一、審查海洋委員會函為113年度中央政府總預算決議．檢送海巡署及所屬決議．一．海巡業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。 二．海洋保育法草案。 審查行政院函勤審議及委員楊瓊英等20人擬據海洋保育法草案案。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1988.454,"end":2009.882,"text":"跟各位委員報告,報告事項第二案,處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋委員會所屬的預算凍結書面報告案有兩案,今夕提書面報告或使得凍資之案,跟委員報告,"},{"start":2011.58,"end":2034.057,"text":"現在書面已經送達提案預算得以凍結並明記報告提報院會各位委員沒有好那本日的議程所列的業務報告和討論事項合併詢答那現在我介紹我們在場"},{"start":2041.954,"end":2045.498,"text":"好,那程序發言,好。那我們程序發言,每人3分鐘可以啦,好。好,謝謝。"},{"start":2068.758,"end":2094.714,"text":"主席在座各位委員大家好首先本席有兩點程序發言第一點就是我們內政委員會今天首度有預算解凍案所以接下來這個程序發言不是針對海委會而是想說是不是可以請主席宣告一下我們所有的預算解凍案只要經過我們大院赴委之後"},{"start":2095.274,"end":2122.128,"text":"是不是可以請相關單位就可以盡早送到各個委員辦公室不要等到召委排案才送進來這樣我們可以提早來了解這是本席程序發言的第一點第二點就是說大概每個委員會業務報告就是一個單位的業務報告但是今天我們這個有業務報告我們還有預算解凍案"},{"start":2125.289,"end":2132.171,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":2143.354,"end":2149.06,"text":"請查照案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":2163.195,"end":2166.658,"text":"總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":2192.6,"end":2215.638,"text":"好沒有了我就介紹我們現場的委員及官員首先我介紹我們張宏祿委員王美惠委員黃潔委員麥一貞委員習新穎委員劉行廷委員楊求英委員"},{"start":2227.214,"end":2253.133,"text":"今天我們類型的官員有我們的海委會主委我們的管碧玲管主委海巡署我們的周美武周署長政務副主委許文玲許副主委常務副主委吳美江副主委"},{"start":2255.816,"end":2263.781,"text":"中核規劃處王一中海域安全處處長黃軒凱科技文教處黃世維國際發展處處長謝雅潔海洋資源處處長王茂成主計處處長"},{"start":2290.925,"end":2301.11,"text":"黃明黃海洋保育署署長黃向文國家海洋研究院院長陳建宏"},{"start":2319.644,"end":2340.983,"text":"海行署北部分署分署長廖德勝中部分署分署長王振信南部分署分署長宋子洋東部分署分署長蔡順元"},{"start":2344.349,"end":2368.484,"text":"金馬鵬分署副分署長蔡茂成東南沙分署分署長陳俊傑艦隊分署分署長廖德成曾黃分署分署長黃世賢"},{"start":2371.36,"end":2383.407,"text":"教育訓練測考中心主任奉運生。 以上我們類型的官員。內政部地政司檢任市長張哲銘"},{"start":2399.366,"end":2406.632,"text":"那岩志明委員會經濟發展處專門委員高文斌好謝謝法務部法制司副署長謝志明司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳法官陳彥寧"},{"start":2426.467,"end":2449.073,"text":"經濟部能源署專門委員游祥偉、農業部漁業署署長張志聖、環境部水質保護師檢任基政朱文蒂、"},{"start":2453.607,"end":2460.231,"text":"財政部國產署檢任記證周富成好謝謝交通部行政司檢任記證鄭宏鎮好謝謝就差不多了吧以上我們列席官員"},{"start":2492.93,"end":2496.897,"text":"好接下來我們請提案委員說明提案的要求我們楊從英委員好謝謝"},{"start":2514.232,"end":2515.993,"text":"主席楊瓊發言針對於本院楊瓊等委員、圖人有贈與《海洋保育法》有其急迫性因為現行法規沒有辦法落實海洋保育的目標此外"},{"start":2532.987,"end":2547.664,"text":"海洋委員會成立之後應該有完整的法規整合海洋保育事務以利我國推行海洋保育的政策並明確來規範對於海洋生物多樣性以及海洋生態系統長期的一個養護"},{"start":2550.848,"end":2552.05,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":2569.913,"end":2588.207,"text":"審查員、觀察員在海域傳播海洋設施、海域工程或者是其周圍從事著海洋保育相關業務在觀察、監測當中以及收集相關資料的這些任務特別在21條跟22條裡頭也就是推廣海洋保育生物多樣性的培育課程"},{"start":2597.733,"end":2602.735,"text":"以及跟整個國際間能夠來合作特別在25條裡頭也就是主管金管單位應該在適當的時間以適當的方式主動公開海洋生態與環境科學有關的這些資訊讓大家一起來維護我們的海洋以上也敬請各位同仁以及我們的行政部門大家來支持謝謝"},{"start":2626.786,"end":2640.323,"text":"好謝謝我們楊瓊英委員的提案那再來請我們海洋委員會我們的主委我們的管碧玲主委報告113年的預算解凍案及法案一併報告"},{"start":2649.057,"end":2675.676,"text":"主席各位委員各位政府官員同仁各位媒體記者女士先生大家早安首先恭喜各位委員容任期盼在新的屆期裡與諸位先進共同為我國政府施政一起努力今天應邀列席大院內政委員會就主管的業務提出報告深感榮幸並請委員給予指教本會112年"},{"start":2678.078,"end":2693.54,"text":"完成了《海洋產業發展條例》、《海洋污染防治法》及《海岸巡防機關器械使用條例》的立法、修法的工作並積極向行政院爭取適足的裁員及員額致力於打造永續的海洋台灣"},{"start":2694.321,"end":2714.379,"text":"我在就任以後對海洋委員會的期許就是我們要做好三安四海三安主要為海巡署的業務我們要維護國家的國安治安以及救生救難上人員的平安以及四海包含了海洋污染的防治海洋廢棄物的治理"},{"start":2714.919,"end":2741.871,"text":"以及海洋產業的發展跟海洋生態的保育在三安四海這方面有關三安的部分我們持續改善同仁、執法環境、工具環境、待遇環境的三大環境我們也成立了安博國家隊我們推動千里漁園以及重建四重的保護來保護漁民成立海巡志工團隊啟用GoOcean App以及提升地方政府海域安全的經費高達3.5倍"},{"start":2744.392,"end":2761.521,"text":"來強化整體海域安全的環境。 有關守護四海的方面,我們完成了藍碳方法學的研擬,公司協力推動海洋捷徑的保護,以及活絡海廢再生聯盟。另外,我們也完備了海豚與海龜的救援網絡,擴展友善的調點,啟用全台"},{"start":2765.863,"end":2782.14,"text":"首座親子垂釣區等多項施政成果以實踐海洋國家的目標感謝各位委員的指導與支持以下僅就近期重要的業務推展跟未來的施政重點則要提出報告有關近期重要的業務的部分"},{"start":2782.64,"end":2806.171,"text":"在守護海洋權益落實南海巡護的部分。 112年我們暨派遣229航次執行專屬基地海域的巡護任務,定期巡護東南沙海域,以及打擊IUU漁業行為,執行3個航次的公海巡護任務,凍檢42艘次。另外在取締陸船越界作業,總共驅離越界陸船1009艘,扣留28艘,"},{"start":2811.753,"end":2824,"text":"二指陸船進入我國淨限制水域維護我國的安全有關於查緝走私槍毒跟破獲新型手法的部分我們合計召開了3次行政院走私聯繫匯報推動跨部會的協調"},{"start":2827.022,"end":2830.403,"text":"報請行政院召開7次專案會議．完成金門地區20處博地廢除．發展聯合線上執法消彌兩岸走私產業鏈．並首次徵獲外籍郵輪甲介維修民意規避檢查的新型犯罪樣態。 112年總共查獲走私農漁序產品60萬5163公斤．"},{"start":2850.35,"end":2851.871,"text":"驗品773萬4898包、濕酒2624公升、槍支35支、槍彈765顆、各級毒品5420.6公斤以及偷渡犯94人,執行100%的傳播安檢。"},{"start":2870.586,"end":2894.187,"text":"檢查1785165艘次並且防堵肉製品入境6818件。 112年我們驅離抽砂船7艘並且推動專精法跟屠宰法的修法三讀通過此後違法的抽砂所有船舶或設備不問屬於犯罪人所有與否都可以沒收。"},{"start":2895.268,"end":2902.993,"text":"有關於建構層層的環護提升海域安全的部分我們修正了接獲我國搜救責任區外救生救難通報事件處理原則這是因為我們千里送藥之後我們發現對於漁民需要更增加多重的保護"},{"start":2912.7,"end":2936.566,"text":"因此我們建立了4層保護網來保護我們的漁民尤其是遠洋作業的漁民我們提高漁船協助救援角度以及放寬海洋船員處方簽領要上線在跨部會協調的會議上這些都已經是既定的方針我們並且成立安博國家隊112年我們台灣的漁船跟商船增加119艘加入美國全球"},{"start":2939.968,"end":2944.997,"text":"政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":2951.857,"end":2974.366,"text":"在全球官方的救援體系跟我國漁船的互助救援以及海巡署的救援之外再增加這一個安博國家隊等於包括我國所有的漁民在海上可以有這四重的保護這四重的保護包括我再重複一遍第一全球官方的一個國際救援的體系"},{"start":2975.166,"end":2999.15,"text":"第2我國漁船互助的救援我們增加了救援的獎勵金第3海巡署的救援我們可以千里送藥萬里搜尋以及第4層也就是安博系統的國際救援這4層的保護的救援體系層層防護我們希望漁民在哪裡政府就在哪裡我們也定期辦理聯合救生救難的演練"},{"start":2999.89,"end":3026.013,"text":"實行救援任務374件642人推動海巡志工開發GoOcean海洋油氣的風險資訊APP另外協助地方政府以揭露風險取代禁止管制這個政策的方向例如像宜蘭的南澳海域即將就將會開放海域油氣的活動是在這個方案之下推動的成果之一"},{"start":3026.934,"end":3036.36,"text":"有關於落實海烏的查緝跟應處海洋污染的部分我們組織了跨機關聯合稽查小組查核傳播3830艘次運用衛星跟無人機監控海烏新建5處應變資材倉庫辦理28場兵棋的推演海烏緊急應變培訓了629人次並且應變了181件的海烏事件"},{"start":3052.851,"end":3070.278,"text":"來檢反海汙的危機我們每一季監測125處的海域水質狀況普遍良好在有關於健全海費治理的部分我們提升循環經濟作為主要的政策目標清除海費16,018公噸招募5,969艘環保艦隊跟4,284名前海戰將我們試辦海會肥瘦的再利用"},{"start":3078.641,"end":3082.863,"text":"保利容債利用91.2公噸債利用率100%我們串聯了51家機構活絡海費再生聯盟發展55種產品未來我們將和國際鏈結讓這些產業能夠在國際的展場上面露面我們也投入多元的量能來保育海洋的生態"},{"start":3099.833,"end":3106.259,"text":"我們完成了桃園新竹藻礁調查4個季次珊瑚監測調查31處系統性分析臺灣周邊生態資料針對金屯等7處擬定保育做計劃另外推廣祭祕措施減緩混和"},{"start":3117.55,"end":3132.499,"text":"聯合稽查離岸風場11次確保落實各項環境影響減輕措施來防患外來入侵種的部分也審核了輸入案達947件優化救援組織網救援金屯150支158支及海歸321支充實海洋保護區的治理能力的部分我們續推友善賞金2.0跟友善釣魚開放釣點156處"},{"start":3145.467,"end":3169.241,"text":"也成立了白海豚巡護艦隊招募海洋志工382名有關白海豚的守護我們在去年間有非常多的觀察看到了令人非常驚喜的海豚的家族也就是白海豚在我們的海域裡面悠遊而且他們都已經能夠生生不息的有了下一代的寶寶在撫育的過程之中"},{"start":3170.381,"end":3178.565,"text":"有關於推廣生態旅遊的部分﹐振興藍色經濟的部分﹐我們也推動地方政府發展海洋事務﹐總共有29項計劃﹐補助經費7098萬元﹐籌組了專業的輔導團隊﹐發展在地的特色﹐我們也做了很多的輔導作業。"},{"start":3188.109,"end":3209.783,"text":"我們另外完成了110年跟111年海洋產業的產值的試算這個產值試算的體系的建立是非常的不容易我們至少已經完成了這個我們海洋產業產值試算的體系並且做了第一次的試算那以後可以作為我們擬定政策參考的一個很重要的依據"},{"start":3210.603,"end":3225.967,"text":"而且辦理了5次的會議來檢討小琉球潮間帶的管理措施朝向推動遊客總量管制來規劃等3管旗下的方式希望進行海域遊器的整合管理另外我們也落實國艦國造已經交船92艘帶動造船產業的技術開發"},{"start":3231.369,"end":3250.106,"text":"預計今年會有29艘新船即將要交建。另外在推動淨零排放完善法令研討的部分我們也完成了研擬紅樹林跟海草床的探會方法學而且也賦予了珊瑚計3000株另外完備海洋相關的法制"},{"start":3250.706,"end":3270.161,"text":"前面由述及我們修正了海岸循環機關器械使用條例海洋污染防治法並且施行海洋產業發展條例另外推動海洋保育法希望今天以由昭偉納入今天的議程我們在稍後將向各位委員報告草案的重點"},{"start":3271.082,"end":3284.738,"text":"其他包括充實科研的資料、鼓勵價值的應用、培育海洋的素養、深化海洋的教育這一點海洋素養典範國家將是我們推動的目標在這一點我們也推動得非常的順利"},{"start":3286.34,"end":3315.251,"text":"另外我們為了形塑海洋的意識推廣海洋的教育我們有諾大師的這個競賽的活動目前和韓國我們可能會去籌劃諾大師競賽的亞洲杯朝向這樣的目標在邁進希望能夠促進深化海洋教育培育海洋素養的成果那另外我們在形塑海洋文化推動文資保存加強國際交流促進多邊合作"},{"start":3315.771,"end":3330.227,"text":"以及健全人力結構、優化場域環境等等方面也都相當努力相關的成果請各位參照書面的資料有關於未來的施政重點包括"},{"start":3330.728,"end":3359.626,"text":"我們必須持續掌握海域的情勢守護國家的安全必須嚴處走私盜殺強化海上的治安必須增進救難的能量保障人民的平安我們也必須推升海霧的量能來強化減災的整備我們還要周延海廢的治理促進海廢的再生保護生態的環境永續海洋的資源推動海洋的事務促進無礙的海洋"},{"start":3360.166,"end":3380.181,"text":"等等這些工作在未來我們都設定了年度的工作目標一步一步朝目標持續的邁進有關於推展海洋淨零健全法證規章的部分前進寬闊的南海擴大科研交流的部分豐富海洋文化深耕海洋教育的部分以及接軌國際趨勢締結由我夥伴的部分"},{"start":3383.383,"end":3389.346,"text":"有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":3399.651,"end":3417.588,"text":"四海也就是海洋生態的保育海洋污染的防治跟海洋廢棄物的治理和海洋產業的發展這三人四海是海委會肩負的職責海委會將持續規劃各項施政的措施傾聽各界的意見來實踐海洋台灣讓民眾能夠與海共生與海共榮"},{"start":3421.992,"end":3439.64,"text":"最後關於2月14日取締大陸及快艇的事故本會責成海巡署成立策進小組我們也要求策進小組全面通盤的檢討在無論是在勤務的管理無論是在裝設備的"},{"start":3441.502,"end":3463.864,"text":"管理的部分以及在這一次我們所發現的在通報以及修正的這些部分我們確實發現了有不足之處這一次的事件我們相當的哀痛我要再度在這裡表達非常高度的不捨跟高度的遺憾跟高度的哀悼"},{"start":3464.945,"end":3478.681,"text":"發生這樣的事情我們不願意看到19年前第一次發生過一次19年後的今天我們再發生了一次執法的目標我們是要免於傷亡為最高的目標"},{"start":3479.862,"end":3505.358,"text":"這次無論無論有沒有過失無論海巡有沒有過失因為我們沒有收證的影帶讓整個事件在處理的過程當中無法迅速的招公信也讓家屬無法很快的去了解案情以安家屬之心讓家屬在煎熬之中度過這麼久的時間至今事情未得到解決"},{"start":3506.238,"end":3521.067,"text":"沒有修正好造成的影響社會的震盪跟大家的傷痛是多麼的嚴重這件事情我們一定會痛加檢討我們的海巡署的副署長已經在記者會公開表示過"},{"start":3522.108,"end":3546.398,"text":"公開道歉。我們的署長也已經在上香與家屬的接見的過程之中也表達了歉意。我們過去因為沒有蒐證的這件事情發生了這樣的一個令人感到傷痛的過程。我今天也在這裡再度表達歉意。我們對社會對家屬就這件事情的部分確實應該要痛加的檢討。"},{"start":3547.418,"end":3556.804,"text":"那未來我跟各位報告就是說在就任以後從3月份開始就責成海巡署要對所有的裝設備做一個全盤的盤點那麼在4月份28號的時候也責成說這個盤點有所需要要成立建案來推動"},{"start":3565.829,"end":3576.94,"text":"所謂成立建案就是一定要用中長期計劃把所有我們的裝設備之所需要做了全盤的盤點之後能夠用中長期計劃來推動這個中長期計劃在今年1月份也已經完成"},{"start":3581.864,"end":3597.049,"text":"我修改了計劃希望所有平滑預算的處理方式能夠改成一次補足逐年汰換所以這個計劃目前是以一次補足逐年汰換的方式我們將用中長期計劃來完成所有裝設備的"},{"start":3600.23,"end":3605.612,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":3624.099,"end":3641.704,"text":"所以在這一次的事件之後我們非常迅速的就計算出所謂密錄器應該要補足的數量而很快的在這個部分我們可以抽出來在今年就來進行不必等到中長期計劃的核定以上為各位所做的是今天的第一個課題我們的業務報告請委員指正"},{"start":3645.265,"end":3654.378,"text":"另外有關於預算的報告因為兩案已經用報告案來通過之後我僅報告其中的第三案列為討論事項也就是"},{"start":3656.215,"end":3680.345,"text":"上個會期審議我們所主管113年預算案決議通過稅出預算281億4882萬1千元並且凍結三項預算合計150萬元其中有關海巡署50萬元的部分那麼有關於這個部分我們首先就海巡業務的部分目前辦理的進度提出報告第一個在確保艦艇"},{"start":3681.906,"end":3710.789,"text":"建船艇的妥善率方面海巡署除了按計劃辦理建船艇稅大修保養外也提報新式建船艇的建造計劃逐年汰換老舊巡防艦艇來穩健推動國艦國造的政策有關於稅大修我們也爭取到了4年90億元來做所有的建船艇稅大修所需要的工作已經得到了經費上面完全的確保"},{"start":3711.65,"end":3737.369,"text":"在改善無人機運用成效的部分海巡署會持續落實無人機的訓練提升設備使用並優化它的功能在查緝違法抽砂及不法走私的方面海巡署持續會嚴密監控海上的目標尤其是在抽砂的熱區如果發現業界的行為會依法驅離或查扣另外為了防範不肖業者走私除了查扣"},{"start":3738.655,"end":3757.42,"text":"之後我們會將它依法移送到主管機關採儲。最後委員關心的是有關於充實海巡人力的方面。海巡署增加員額編制相當的大。我們也都得到行政院全力的支持。我們增加了很大量的編制員額。"},{"start":3759.62,"end":3780.062,"text":"並且爭取了海巡人員諸種家籍跟待遇福利的提升也逐步厚實了海巡的人力資源以上是有關於預算解凍案海巡署50萬元預算解凍的相關的報告最後一個是有關於海洋委員會所提出來的海洋保育法草案的"},{"start":3781.183,"end":3804.491,"text":"報告。感謝昭委在今天排案進來審查。海洋委員會成立以來承蒙大院委員的大力支持跟指教,讓我們今天可以排入海洋保育法的審議。針對本會所提的草案,很感謝大院的重視,優先納入審議的排成。"},{"start":3805.211,"end":3825.019,"text":"我今天應邀來做說明敬請委員會與支持而不吝指導臺灣四面環海海洋資源豐富但是海洋環境面臨的污染過度的利用棲地破壞等等議題涵蓋面廣而且跨越縣市"},{"start":3826.6,"end":3847.186,"text":"現行的法令雖然已經針對我國海域的各類海洋資源利用活動予以原則性的規範或劃定保護區域但是對於海洋多目標保育使用的規範仍有所不足為了打造生態保育跟環境永續的利用並兼顧優質的海洋產業發展環境"},{"start":3848.466,"end":3863.857,"text":"本會自108年就預告了《海洋保育法》的草案相關的民間團體、漁民、產業界、原住民、專家、學者等等提出許多的寶貴的建議本會跟海洋保育署秉持社會溝通之誠"},{"start":3864.918,"end":3888.719,"text":"召開數十場次的溝通跟座談跟相關的機關、團體、延商更與保育團體、離岸風電業者、漁業界等進行社會溝通聽取對本法及後續相關執法的建議並廣征學界的意見在各界不同的意見中尋求社會的共識那麼"},{"start":3889.52,"end":3908.031,"text":"我們把草案經由這些過程製作出來之後我們審訊的草案全文總共5章30條草案在113年2月15日經行政院第3892次院會審議通過同日函送大任審議"},{"start":3909.312,"end":3932.797,"text":"自判本法能夠順利通過．讓臺灣在保護海洋生態環境．促進海洋保護區管理成效．以及保育及復育．海洋生物多樣性等面向．都可以大幅邁進．並與氣候變遷因應法．海洋污染防治法．海洋產業發展條例等法規互相呼應．營造健康的海洋生態環境．兼顧藍色產業的永續經營．"},{"start":3936.738,"end":3954.833,"text":"共創健康海洋環境及資源永續利用這一次的立法重點我僅整理說明如下本次的立法有助於政府跟民間合力強化三大目標五大權限、三大保障及兩大公民監督"},{"start":3956.531,"end":3971.571,"text":"三大目標的部分我們的立法目的要達成第一個我們保護海洋生態環境第二我們會整合海洋保護區的效能第三我們保育海洋生物多樣性"},{"start":3972.712,"end":3990.258,"text":"為了這三大目標政府賦予了五大權限包括主管機關可以劃設海洋庇護區管理海洋保護區公告禁限制行為調查實施保育措施及派遣觀察員收集資料"},{"start":3991.258,"end":4005.811,"text":"但是我們也給用海方提供用海單位三大保障這三大保障包括省議會的參與決策用海的各方不同的利害各方"},{"start":4006.411,"end":4028.061,"text":"都會是審議會的決策參與者、決策成員．而不是列席的成員。這是這部法跟其他相關法律非常大的不一樣也是對於用海單位一個非常大的保障另外在庇護區我們採分區管理"},{"start":4028.701,"end":4056.116,"text":"除了核心區以外緩衝區與永續利用區經核可之下的利用都有分層管理另外是對於既有的用海方案我們有信賴保護的原則這三大保障是對於用海單位所提供的三大保障另外我們也鼓勵兩大途徑來讓全民參與監督包括提供吹哨者"},{"start":4056.756,"end":4078.599,"text":"制度以及公民訴訟的條款以上這三大目標五大權限三大保障跟兩大途徑是海保法修法最主要的內容將在詢答以及審議的過程當中再接受各位委員的指導指教但盼能得到委員的支持"},{"start":4079.52,"end":4099.091,"text":"最後,我們呼籲聯合國永續發展目標《海洋保育法》歷經多年的討論、社會溝通跟行政協調,提出此共識的版本,希望得到支持。我們完成立法以後,要具以訂定各項執法,還會有很長一段的準備時間。"},{"start":4100.572,"end":4125.915,"text":"如果大院支持本會陸續完成了海洋危難防治法海洋產業發展條例跟本法那麼海洋三法最關鍵的一環我們也就立法的完成這對於台灣邁向偉大的海洋國家是很重要的一大步最後我必須說我們必須整合用海的單位跟環境保育的目標"},{"start":4127.156,"end":4149.505,"text":"最後制定的這部法令是一個非常的務實前進的法令我們很希望好不容易得到各方能夠共同取得共識的這個法令能夠在大院會會所支持之下我們能夠往立法的目標邁進非常感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":4154.451,"end":4159.598,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4170.61,"end":4177.974,"text":"主席宣布現在行達委員執行還是以慣例本委員會6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員會發言6分鐘"},{"start":4188.78,"end":4211.51,"text":"上午10點30分截止歡迎登記因為我們今天是預算法案的處理本次的會議就不處理臨時提案請各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見那我們就開始來進行我們的審打登記第一號的麥一貞委員麥一貞委員"},{"start":4216.817,"end":4217.097,"text":"主席海洋委員會管主委"},{"start":4236.103,"end":4259.522,"text":"謝謝主委昨天總質詢的時候我有提過說我們警察同仁很辛苦所以我們同樣的海巡地松也為了守護我們國家的海域也很努力所以海巡任務非常重要而且很危險從以前就有很多次為海巡同仁爭取條獎"},{"start":4262.024,"end":4289.939,"text":"出勤紮擠的聲音雖然我們知道去年危險紮擠已經調漲了15%看起來是很多但是危險紮擠本身就不高就像我們要去便利商店買一杯咖啡說第二杯7折實際上就是平均起來只有8、5折而已再請教主委有沒有考慮增加出勤的紮擠"},{"start":4291.127,"end":4298.711,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4314.58,"end":4328.185,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有"},{"start":4343.311,"end":4347.655,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":4360.208,"end":4364.952,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度"},{"start":4379.526,"end":4380.887,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4396.816,"end":4396.996,"text":"提供凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":4412.769,"end":4436.94,"text":"台灣海洋正在就是面臨一類的減少生物多樣性的消失的危險雖然是海洋委員會已經成立5年但是海洋環境支援保育等法律的還是一樣分散在不同的主管機構中尤其是海洋保護的力度仍然不夠"},{"start":4439.021,"end":4448.428,"text":"這個會期行政院難得很快就提出海洋保育法草案這些我也看過選舉委幾個問題目前臺灣已經設立了69個海洋保護區但是"},{"start":4459.4,"end":4481.968,"text":"海保署在11年做了一次全面的評估結果還有11處就是低度保護所以代表所劃設的海洋保護區還是沒有被有效的管理所以當時我們的行政院版本的海保法其中一個重要就是說要劃設海洋庇護區請問主委如果一直劃"},{"start":4489.171,"end":4503.892,"text":"海洋庇護區想到舊化真的是對海洋有幫助嗎?這些的區域化設依據及分類標準是什麼?是否足夠科觀及透明?"},{"start":4504.862,"end":4522.908,"text":"跟委員報告海洋庇護區是依據海保法未來我們準備依法去劃設的部分那這個部分的劃設主要在永續海洋尤其是生物多樣性的保護那和剛剛委員所說沒有錯"},{"start":4523.848,"end":4527.209,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":4554.341,"end":4555.162,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4573.843,"end":4575.504,"text":"委員會這樣子的和我們的人民的溝通協調的機制會是什麼海洋委員會如何維護當地的民眾還有移民權益保護海洋環境的這樣子的平衡"},{"start":4590.632,"end":4591.212,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":4605.981,"end":4610.625,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4634.144,"end":4639.925,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4654.609,"end":4659.074,"text":"本來就是為了漁業資源的勇氣而來的法律當然要非常的保護漁業沒有錯"},{"start":4677.296,"end":4683.142,"text":"是,所以因為我們的現在的保護法所以我們都沒有說有一個期限因為我看到的就是在裡面沒有說達成一個期限這樣會不會說我們的這部法通過了好像是沒有立法一樣因為沒有期限再來就是我們的海委會就是"},{"start":4703.1,"end":4731.981,"text":"資源不夠要統計管理那麼多的保護區所以我們希望說還有我們的海洋委員會也有一個國家海洋會的研究院有做了很多就是水質的測驗海洋生態的調查但是這個沒有夠公開還有就是請主委有什麼想法是否同意讓我們的就是公民就大家來可以去"},{"start":4732.789,"end":4737.506,"text":"當你在發保護器的時候、庇護器的時候讓大家可以去"},{"start":4738.14,"end":4762.016,"text":"去檢視去審議會的像以現在所有的監測的資料屬於海保署所做的監測的資料在海保署的網頁上面都有公開那屬於國海院他整合了全國所有的海洋資料庫好幾十億筆資料在裡面也都是有公開可以為大家所利用我們甚至於還鼓勵大家從這個資料庫裡面去用資料庫的資料"},{"start":4765.638,"end":4767.339,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府函，請查照案。"},{"start":4799.3,"end":4802.242,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":4826.11,"end":4843.793,"text":"主委我們海洋基本法通過後就是兩年內要制定海洋三法我們已經通過了海洋產業發展條例今天也排審了海洋保育法我想請問一下海域管理法的草案我們現在推動的情形如何?"},{"start":4844.327,"end":4868.722,"text":"跟委員報告我們當然內部初步的條文我們有試擬出來了但是因為海域管理的路線有完全不一樣的選擇所以事關這個路線我們要怎麼選擇譬如說中央地方要怎麼分權"},{"start":4870.219,"end":4872.62,"text":"全資全能做海洋功能性區劃還是以用海計劃來做海域規劃這四層,中央地方、全資全能、功能使用"},{"start":4896.328,"end":4919.357,"text":"然後這個舉證之下我們最後要先做政策指導的意見整合然後我們才能夠開始再做跨部會的協商所以目前我們還處在政策指導的協商之中先去選定發展的策略的階段"},{"start":4920.037,"end":4935.196,"text":"好那如果決定了就會很快好反正有在做啦對有有有我們也希望這過程之中會有一些研討讓社會來表達說未來我們到底要走哪一條路來做這件事"},{"start":4935.697,"end":4939.2,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":4959.656,"end":4979.897,"text":"各位委員報告如果不註冊也可以看到資訊那註冊有助於服務更完善也有助於統計那這個部分到目前為止點選的也算蠻踴躍我們是不是讓院長來說明一下詳細的數字好"},{"start":4984.424,"end":4993.369,"text":"到目前為止GoVision App的使用人次是83萬次我們相信到暑假就是夏季會更多會很快增長"},{"start":4995.051,"end":5002.139,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":5016.314,"end":5033.099,"text":"你註冊你當然可以收集到更多的資料但如果是以商業的角度你要來好好這個你應該先開放大家免費註冊那你大家用的習慣了你再慢慢去註冊我的看法反而是不一樣耶對這個這個跟委員報告是免費的沒有問題啦那本來就免費我知道我剛講是免費註冊只是會就這樣你還要一定要註冊"},{"start":5043.835,"end":5069.203,"text":"不註冊的話是看到資訊是就是比較簡單那我們可以來營業不用註冊的方式我想這個沒有問題對啦我是覺得啦這個很好的一個APP應該讓大家多使用你要他的比較互動什麼的你可以廣大之後再去篩選啦我是建議這樣啦好我們來鼓勵朝這個方向好不好好謝謝委員好"},{"start":5071.707,"end":5074.269,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":5095.441,"end":5109.211,"text":"我們開兩次會 這個問題也有到我這裡來那尤其是尤其是譬如說以潛水來講 只有潛水"},{"start":5111.733,"end":5136.943,"text":"那我們的協調只有在說你活動的時候就那個活動的單次願意保險公司願意但是整體去開這樣的保單目前我們幾經協調還是沒有辦法突破那最主要的原因是因為保險公司他要精算出保單他需要有足夠的資料庫做背景去算"},{"start":5137.763,"end":5158.313,"text":"目前累積的相關的海事活動上面比如說以自由潛水來講的話它累積的這些數值還不夠所以他們就沒有願意貿然的要去很快的算出這個保單的制度來那我們很希望能夠趕快的突破"},{"start":5159.173,"end":5184.642,"text":"包括很多海事產業他在發展的時候他銀行受信也因為銀行對海事產業的申書所以他在銀行受信上面他也都受到一些阻礙沒辦法取得受信譬如說如果我要發展海事活動的服務業那很可能我租了一個碼頭以後那個清淤就要花好幾億"},{"start":5185.578,"end":5188.579,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":5203.164,"end":5207.966,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":5221.17,"end":5236.831,"text":"我們會來努力對 主委其實我知道這就是我們海洋基本法通過之後會慢慢的面臨的這些問題不管是產業不管是人民我今天質詢我提出這個就是我只有一個目的"},{"start":5238.035,"end":5252.53,"text":"我們看到了問題了但這個問題不是馬上可以解決但我們是要有準備去解決問題的決心要慢慢來做啦我的看法是這樣跟委員報告這是我們海資處的處長特別請他把我們民間在海洋產業發展的過程當中"},{"start":5257.575,"end":5260.196,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":5285.522,"end":5307.377,"text":"對啦,因為就像主委所說的未來面臨的會很多金融的是一部分剛剛主委講的漁權、漁業跟這些就是我們到時候要面對的問題啦所以現在要有所準備啦我的意思就是這樣那就要請大家一起努力啦謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":5315.661,"end":5319.865,"text":"謝謝,我們感謝張宏祿委員,我們請劉徐廷委員。還有一個主委有請喔,謝謝。來,主委。劉委員好。"},{"start":5337.589,"end":5341.674,"text":"主委早安我們繼續追蹤一下金門撞船的事情現在3月5號大陸的台辦副主任講說顯然對於我們談判的結果不是特別滿意他說反正否認事實謊話連篇反正又指控我們說設置各種障礙所以感覺不歡而散 對不對"},{"start":5357.012,"end":5385.401,"text":"沒關係聽我講完嘛好不好然後好像我們的慰問金也被拒絕嘛等等那我們的陸委會也有講齁這個第一階段的協商告已段落齁這個可能要等檢察官調查報告出爐之後才會進行下一階段的協商那針對這件事情的後續處遇本席有幾個問題要就教這個主委喔這第一個我們要釐清一下啦就是這個談判的過程中齁這個中國大陸這邊的立場要求跟期待是可以說的事情嗎"},{"start":5386.517,"end":5395.224,"text":"可以透露嗎?我們盡量信守不予透露的承諾盡量的信守不予透露的承諾聽起來蠻可怕的我們在談判的過程之中我們是絕對的都信守了但是在上個禮拜的專案報告當中委員也知道"},{"start":5407.273,"end":5423.518,"text":"我們海巡的同仁在幾次的巡達的過程中不得已就說了一些部分但是我們最主要的用心是我們很希望還是要保護所以打巡的時候不再此現了因為現在狀況是這樣"},{"start":5424.798,"end":5445.563,"text":"像昨天總質詢的時候這個陳玉成委員就有問嘛就是說以他的了解這個大陸方面沒有要求我們把人犯送到大陸去受審那陳建然院長講說你怎麼會知道這個理應不該被透露的事情那我們就也很好奇也在問啊那為什麼王定宇委員3月4號的時候知道說大陸要求我們要送審"},{"start":5447.164,"end":5471.021,"text":"這個要嘛我們的政府機關就講這個是不能透露的事情對不對要嘛如果可以透露你乾脆今天講一講好了到底有沒有這件事情你要不要釐清一下我想就我的了解就是說外界現在的諸多的描述不盡精確不盡精確對那我們很希望就是說大家對於諸多的訊息我們還是冷靜"},{"start":5474.523,"end":5496.79,"text":"所以海洋委員其實是基於談判要順利嘛,你的善的橋樑要紮得穩對不對?所以是不應該,大家不應該多去臆測嘛對不對?過程之中這麼長的時間,為什麼我們就是忍著哀罵,不願意講案情,因為講了案情變成責任全部歸咎在對方。這就是本席要提醒你的,這就是本席要提醒,也是要嚴肅提醒政府單位啦。"},{"start":5497.13,"end":5513.492,"text":"如果談判的過程是不應該透露的因為我們都清楚嘛 談判當然要保密嘛這些內容當然不應該為外人所盜那是不是你政府在保密的部分要做得好一點不管是藍的或者是綠的都不應該有什麼奇怪的知情洩露不應該有這個狀況嘛 對不對"},{"start":5515.334,"end":5533.88,"text":"所以我是提醒政府這部分要避免啦 對不對這個本期願意理解啊但我的意思是說既然消息有走漏那你是不是內部有狀況所以我第一個要提醒你的是在保密的部分你可能要做一下了解跟調查不要發生這樣的事情啦好不好"},{"start":5542.744,"end":5556.3,"text":"我願意尊重海洋會理長也基於談判要順利我們不會追問細節但我要提醒你你內部的管控要做好這第一個那第二個現在我至少問一下嘛就是說調查報告出爐之後可能會有第二輪談判對不對現在我這樣講還是說乾脆就不談了"},{"start":5559.537,"end":5583.646,"text":"我們目前有做各種努力那其中的一種努力是希望人道優先那人道的課題也是在溝通的過程當中說實在是最具有高度共享的部分所以我們很希望這個部分的話我們會越快找到越快找到解決的途徑越好但是如果一定要把根據陸委會講陸委會講說等到"},{"start":5586.747,"end":5610.505,"text":"現在是等到檢調有一個調查的結果出來因為某一些事實要做釐清嘛對不對那是因為如果談的內容要全包那大概是什麼階段比如說你先聽我的問題嘛調查報告所謂出爐是指說做起訴或不起訴還是說判決還是什麼有沒有一個明確的交代就什麼時候會有下一輪的談判我說的就是說其實是可以人道優先我們抽出來先處理的"},{"start":5611.085,"end":5637.145,"text":"所以陸委會所說的是指說以目前目前對方的要求希望我們就是一體解決所以有沒有明確的答案所以你希望趕快談的意思人道優先的部分重新談判希望人道優先的部分重新談判我們其實海巡署一直在努力我們請署長來說明好不好沒關係我還有待會要問署長的話但是因為談判你就是主觀嘛沒有問題嘛那善的橋樑要繼續搭對不對"},{"start":5641.388,"end":5665.289,"text":"三的橋樑我們一直在持續沒有多大把握可以繼續維持跟委員報告由於他不是單方面不是單方面那我們目前一直在努力那努力的成果也或者是努力的障礙我們也比較希望說不要公開的來議論或許我們請署長到委員的辦公室來跟委員說明"},{"start":5665.93,"end":5682.852,"text":"好你會不會要說明我接受啦那我們就到時候請署長來做詳細說明好不好好那再來我要問最近比較嚴重因為我為什麼那麼關心談判就是因為萬一散的橋樑這是你們講的搭不起來的時候這問題持續升溫其實對海巡弟兄來講是有非常大的壓力我舉幾個例子啊這個"},{"start":5684.113,"end":5708.591,"text":"像最近的這個中國級漁船直接闖入6海里是被認定標準的領海範圍啊但壓力是非常大的那大家當然就是說當然要依法驅離嘛對不對我想不管是主委也好或是署長也好應該對這事這這這當然要共識嘛對我也支持你要執法嘛對不對三無漁船要執法這進到6海里了我們當然要執法可是看到的狀況是海巡署說啊因為風浪很大"},{"start":5709.051,"end":5709.812,"text":"本席對這樣的狀況我是非常非常擔心的"},{"start":5724.125,"end":5749.757,"text":"人家現在已經不只是金門的挖泥船那個1萬噸的直接親門踏戶啦對不對因為看按照你們剛剛的說法欸這個應該也是理論上不被允許的嘛就算過去有協議但挖泥船不算嘛對不對這一個那另外一個是人家直接在台灣海峽的海域也一樣親門踏戶的進到6海里的範圍的時候那我們竟然拍不出相應的這個阻止的措施這個海域我們的我們的執法作業流程到底該怎麼該怎麼因應這樣的事情"},{"start":5750.157,"end":5776.823,"text":"各位委員報告這個涉及每一次的調度那這個部分我請署長來回答或者是分署長來回答快點我們今天時間比較有限好不好節奏快點委員好很高興有這個時間事實上這個案子從頭到尾都在我們雷達的監控當中那確實因為惡劣的海象在隔天的時候其中兩艘在大潭脫鎖離開其第三艘是由我們宜蘭艦來執行棲離事實是這樣子以上"},{"start":5779.784,"end":5808.229,"text":"所以有執行驅離喔?為什麼你們當初講的版本不一樣?說沒有辦法驅離?這不是很奇怪嗎?你說你監控是不是?隔天他往北航行到大唐外航的時候是由桃園艦攔下驅離的一艘其中兩艘脫手離開了我現在是很擔心這個狀況啦因為這個民進黨政府主張要對等尊嚴我不懷疑對等尊嚴的決心但是我懷疑對等尊嚴有沒有能力因為你的設備你的條件有沒有辦法"},{"start":5810.19,"end":5836.852,"text":"長時間的強力執法這個是大家會擔心的事嘛既然要說得到就要做得到好不好謝謝委員這樣的關心我想我們在勤務調度上面一定會做最適當的對我現在怕因為看起來因為剛剛委員的擔心我特別說明剛剛分署長已經因為他是業中部地區的業管的分署長他對當天的情形非常了解所以這三艘進入到六海裡的這個漁船我們是從開始進入就開始掌握"},{"start":5837.412,"end":5863.685,"text":"那我們會是當時的海上的狀況跟我們前進兵力的部署我現在就擔心部署跟硬體嘛因為萬一我們都只有百噸的水房體沒有辦法實施驅離的時候這件事情在國際上的解釋是不是會認為我們沒有辦法或是我們沒有能力去處理這件事情是會影響整體的這個布局對不對這是危險的那我們後續我們的造船的計畫都有在這邊持續在加入我們的行列"},{"start":5864.045,"end":5864.865,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":5886.013,"end":5904.49,"text":"你有多大的把握能夠阻止這樣的事情一方面維持善的橋樑二方面守住對等注意你打算怎麼處理這件事情我想社會大眾是關心的所以請署長會後既然都說要來說明署長來說明就可以了好不好最後一點點時間拜託趙委員我再收個尾密錄器的部分我也是要求"},{"start":5905.13,"end":5922.577,"text":"我們看到手持V8是很奇怪的現在隨便也有三軸穩定對不對你海上晃來晃去但是現在的技術它夠小然後原則上也有穩定器我實在搞不清楚為什麼一個採購可以等這麼久呢所以我們這有一個政府的採購規定但是我跟委員報告我們在9月底以前"},{"start":5923.437,"end":5949.475,"text":"會把這個所有的3100句都採購到案而且在9月底以前我們現在全部都調播所以各一線單位現在只要出勤都有帶的密錄器這請委員放心一樣嘛到時候一起報告一起說明啦就是密錄器的這個建制還有它的品質啊你不要擔心最後這個品質不OK或什麼的我們不要再讓這個事情發生了好不好那就麻煩會後詳細說明可以嗎這個不要等太久好不好好謝謝辛苦"},{"start":5951.301,"end":5953.905,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":5980.771,"end":5984.456,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我們有請海洋委員會主委好 請出位黃委員好"},{"start":5992.714,"end":6020.197,"text":"主席早安早所以今天我要大概我今天要講的重點就是我們支持海豹法要綻放台東藍那台東其實是全台灣美麗的海洋全台灣接觸海面積最多的縣市是我們因為我們整個海岸線從南到北有169公里還包括蘭嶼跟綠島兩個所以加起來它的面積是最大的接觸海的面積在台灣的縣市裡面面積最大"},{"start":6021.098,"end":6032.131,"text":"那這邊我就要講到海洋保護這件事情齁主委你知道去年12月的時候臺灣臺東的外海發生那個有污染事件嗎是"},{"start":6034.144,"end":6037.925,"text":"綠島、柚子湖我們處置了超過一個月而且我們非常廣泛的用各種針尖的系統還有海流的模擬我們去鎖定可能的船舶"},{"start":6059.792,"end":6073.03,"text":"未來但是因為他在污染的過程我們的衛星的掃描沒有掃到污染當下的影像所以我們沒有辦法有足夠的證據的連結"},{"start":6075.974,"end":6096.36,"text":"但是未來這被我們鎖定的船舶只要再經過我國的海域我們一定全程鑄針會全程的監控那另外是在這一次的油污的處理的過程之中我們也把所有應該要"},{"start":6098.36,"end":6111.9,"text":"再去增加的各種的這個準備經過這一次以後我們未來有關於海洋污染防治所需的資材的配置我們也重新要來補充"},{"start":6113.843,"end":6114.424,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":6129.28,"end":6132.163,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":6150.057,"end":6162.648,"text":"最後有兩個地方因為他的那個一方面海象不好的時候那他的位置如果下去處理的時候就會有危險性的部分那些部分會比較拖時間接下來後續怎麼處理"},{"start":6167.315,"end":6171.677,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":6197.011,"end":6199.633,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度"},{"start":6227.442,"end":6230.126,"text":"書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案"},{"start":6249.465,"end":6276.418,"text":"各縣市政府的數字目前我們會後給委員好不好?我們很鼓勵地方提案所以地方的提案我們多數都予以支持所以是這樣子我們台灣是一個四面環海的海洋國家不用寫阿寶台詞都沒台詞出台詞的時候這件事都沒救營主委認同這件對不對?我們從今年開始會有海烏費的收入來挹注這一塊"},{"start":6277.881,"end":6296.079,"text":"就像本席說的我們要持續的綻放臺東藍臺東藍是那個太平洋那個藍是926萬一百六十九公里再加兩個離島這可能是地方政府我們地方政府的提案我們多數都會支持"},{"start":6297.54,"end":6312.008,"text":"主委請主委多多支持地方,讓我們地方有足夠的資源去做海洋保育的工作。主委我是來自台東,我在海邊長大的小孩。我在海邊長大的小孩。"},{"start":6314.349,"end":6334.963,"text":"大海其實就是我們日常的一部分所以我支持海洋保育這件事情我絕對激起我同時也是阿美族的女婿海洋對阿美族來講是一個神聖的地方所以我們相信大家都支持海洋法的推動不過其實我相信在海洋法在海洋保育推動的同時經濟其實它也是要去兼顧到的"},{"start":6336.673,"end":6344.578,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":6358.866,"end":6365.673,"text":"海洋法的推動要依據上述的精神來規劃來討論跟所有跟海洋相關的產業一起來討論我們來創造雙贏我們審議會就是這樣謝謝委員的指導那我們審議會就是把所有用海利害關係單位都放進來成為決策者而不是那個練習啦或者是來表達意見而已"},{"start":6379.787,"end":6381.488,"text":"函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函"},{"start":6411.148,"end":6439.308,"text":"將會在保護區劃設之前有核准的都會得到信賴保護好 謝謝主委我相信大家都會認多一個共識就是海這片海是我們的家我們沒有人會把家弄亂但我們希望他往好的地方來發展那這邊也要希望主委能夠就剛剛本席提到的臺東縣政府在處理這部分的經費能夠多加挹注然後讓我們共同來守護這片海"},{"start":6439.728,"end":6442.409,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":6471.226,"end":6471.586,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6503.996,"end":6505.258,"text":"海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":6515.649,"end":6541.144,"text":"原來有墊子可以用好謝謝署長因為其實在今天的這個海保法要審查之前我們就已經有跟海保署調過一些資料那我很肯定說我們終於可以來好好的審海保法了因為這個其實是有非常多的團體都等待已久那我也很肯定我們可以好好的審議那我也希望這個會期可以如期的通過這個是我們共同的目標"},{"start":6542.165,"end":6567.112,"text":"那首先我要講一下說因為其實現在大家非常關心就是我們在做非常多離岸封店的案場那在這些案場裡面呢其實有很多團體都說這個其實跟金屯保育會有很直接的關係因為其實在這些施作的過程當中其實它的噪音是會直接影響我們金屯的保育的那甚至是有金屯的數量也嚴重的受到影響"},{"start":6567.972,"end":6571.517,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":6584.514,"end":6587.137,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":6607.176,"end":6614.258,"text":"我必須要講一下目前這個水下噪音的問題大家也都很關心包括現在風場的探勘施工還有工作船的來回航行的狀況那我這邊有一個資料是現在的海豚協會他們針對金豚的擱淺舊商的統計資料從2015開始就有一些苗栗漿化的風場因為現在開發商非常密集的探勘然後金豚的擱淺數量已經是翻倍了"},{"start":6636.466,"end":6657.922,"text":"是這樣子嗎?這邊跟委員報告就是說針對金豚擱淺其實我們長期有監測那我們在看資料的時候剛提到有些像鹿脊鼠海豚其實數量最高都是在金門跟連鄉等離島縣市那在台灣西海岸的擱淺數量實際上在這最近幾年並沒有非常明顯增加的狀況"},{"start":6658.883,"end":6678.038,"text":"那您剛提到有些翻倍我們去看一下數量可能是從一支變兩支或兩支變四支那實際上因為大部分的擱淺精純其實死亡的時候的狀況不太能夠辨別他的死因所以基本上我們目前在看跟離岸封建應該還找不到直接的關係或數字我們會持續監測"},{"start":6679.099,"end":6701.849,"text":"當然我們不希望說就是這個海下的噪音可能會間接不管直接或間接啦如果有影響到這個金屯的保育都是我們值得關注的因為我也不希望說我們現在這麼努力的在做離岸風電結果大家發現說如果這些成果必須要靠金屯的擱淺來交換的話變成血色風電這是大家最擔心的事情"},{"start":6702.769,"end":6705.29,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":6727.657,"end":6756.376,"text":"它其實並沒有被放在這個水下噪音的建議的一個指標生物裡面因為它其實只有用到這個中華白海豚的就是限值而已那我這邊希望的建議是可不可以我們也跟環境部來建議把這個這個建議的噪音標準就是漏積水海豚水下噪音的忍受值是140分貝我們也把它放進去是不是也可以提出這樣的建議呢"},{"start":6759.518,"end":6779.549,"text":"實際上日剛提到包括海保署在前幾年通過的金屯觀察員就是希望風電發展過程中必須要監測金屯那後來包括我們提出離岸風電的生態調查指引還有最近的水下噪音指引就是希望說減緩這些可能打樁可能造成的噪音去影響到所有金屯"},{"start":6779.889,"end":6781.23,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":6800.62,"end":6818.602,"text":"好那再來是說因為現在我們對陸基礎海豚的棲地範圍其實是沒有基本的調查的所以我也希望說我們可不可以就是針對台灣本島周邊的海域來做基本的棲地調查然後之後再推動要劃設海洋庇護區的時候有一個參考的指引呢"},{"start":6820.088,"end":6839.478,"text":"謝謝委員。我們的鯨豚調查剛提到陸幾屬海豚在離島比較多所以其實在金門、連江最近幾年我們有新的計畫那包括在台灣本島的部分過去早期我們從東岸開始做因為東岸的鯨豚比較多但最近兩年我們開始延伸到包括北部、南部跟西海岸都有就是希望可以完善所有鯨豚種類的調查"},{"start":6840.959,"end":6864.6,"text":"好 謝謝那最後我有幾點建議就是說大家會覺得說現在我們海洋保護區的生態監測跟執行管理還不夠透明這個資訊透明我相信是一個基本的功課也希望我們接下來可以把這些資訊都更公開另外就是這個海保法裡面提到的海洋庇護區有核心區緩衝區跟永續利用區因為這個到底如何劃設具體劃設以及它的標準我相信是"},{"start":6867.182,"end":6894.464,"text":"不管是環團還是漁業團體還有跟水上有關的使用者都會非常的關心這個我希望接下來也可以要有一個很明確的指引並且跟大家都做溝通那最後一個建議就是這個海上的觀察員因為其實大家會說過去也有一些例如說八池門的辯護人裡面有提到說這個觀察員的安全到底要如何保障如何客觀獨立的執行他的職務"},{"start":6895.505,"end":6924.765,"text":"這個部分我也希望我們接下來在執行的時候可以給予一定的基本的保障可以嗎?這邊很快回答委員三項建議第一項提到有關於資料可能不是那麼公開透明因為過去可能散在各個機關所以我們這幾年有成立海洋保護區的特別的網站把各機關的相關報告都放在那個地方讓民眾可以很快的看到那後面關於觀察員的部分我們會有相關的執法去規範他的資格跟相關的安全措施"},{"start":6926.166,"end":6927.706,"text":"海洋秘護區的劃設準則與方式。"},{"start":6957.26,"end":6959.482,"text":"王美惠委員主席"},{"start":6976.431,"end":6980.653,"text":"黃議員好主委在這裡本時要先幫你探討一下三位策略,我們在苗栗外海發生的事情,你覺得這個總統有三個大陸的尊嚴嗎?"},{"start":6992.591,"end":6996.094,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7015.549,"end":7019.174,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7028.004,"end":7057.239,"text":"這就是從頭到尾你都知道,不是在外面說的,你不知道喔?都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都知道,都"},{"start":7057.899,"end":7084.13,"text":"你是沒有作為或是沒有協議?我們有作為,我們是派一百棟要出海,出海去到九尾河的時候,風險太壞,十幾,真的危險,按照我們的標準,我同意的,那棟嶺我看真的風險很壞,現在先回來,等風險好再過去看吧。當然啦,我們的弟兄、姊妹安全要顧下去啦。是,因為那次我們都不敢寬恒。"},{"start":7084.69,"end":7086.332,"text":"以前跟我們的新黃庭是不一樣的構造,安全係數不一樣。是不是我們派小吃去,我們會大吃?"},{"start":7093.218,"end":7104.321,"text":"這個時候我們有沒有通報?我現在問你,你的官員還在海洋大廈的時候,是我們派了太貴小隻還是太大隻?還是我們的總副沒工?我們有通過這次在西北水域的宜蘭縣,但是宜蘭縣那個時候有在掛,所以他掛了有水欄下。"},{"start":7118.325,"end":7126.09,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7140.899,"end":7157.567,"text":"我們的計算這三家村在結工的早期2天在1點的時候在大潭外海往西北離開脫鎖再往北部繼續走的時候在早期6點外的時候議案件給驅離結果是這樣結果是這樣本身是要說覺得它是要挑釁我們的"},{"start":7170.313,"end":7171.534,"text":"海洋委員會凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":7193.097,"end":7210.804,"text":"這三屆雷達控制專業研判有兩家4.8海浬的速度,這是在拖靠近,還有一家10海浬的速度往北,這是在航行,應該是避風經過。你剛才所說的,你的雷達也有控制,也不是像外國人說的,你的雷達海浬。完全在控制當中。"},{"start":7216.707,"end":7223.331,"text":"因為有本事所了解的外靠的團結說你們在台海,所以你們沒了解跟本人在那裡,這樣在那裡,走在那裡的衝浪,有10日、日、9、6日,這樣,這個範圍有一點點空白。"},{"start":7235.168,"end":7236.069,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":7256.227,"end":7260.711,"text":"移民收到他的利益在海的時候,應該來發結,這樣就太慢了。所以在這幾天,我們也有群臨感,台北感,知道已經對我們最重要的加油,所以你們要好好做,還有"},{"start":7277.304,"end":7283.467,"text":"這兩天讓他們知道說, 台灣是有辦法保護台灣的市民啦。 跟你們如果要來抓台灣過海的時候,這是我們的處理, 不是不會處理的啦。"},{"start":7292.91,"end":7296.032,"text":"來 主委你有什麼要補充我們總體來說真的我也不敢說白白的說我們百分之一百都有辦法所以我們有進步的空間我也不敢這樣說有時候尤其是海洋還是東北地方來你看東北地方來的時候配合加這個就進來我們這裡要漂風它對方也是進來漂風的像這種就越界進來"},{"start":7321.084,"end":7325.187,"text":"政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":7348.482,"end":7352.304,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7374.358,"end":7374.518,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7389.312,"end":7390.434,"text":"有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":7406.075,"end":7406.576,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府函，請查照案。"},{"start":7421.474,"end":7422.614,"text":"請查照案。 請查照案。 請查照案。"},{"start":7447.601,"end":7449.082,"text":"函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"},{"start":7466.329,"end":7470.83,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7489.315,"end":7494.381,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":7503.834,"end":7504.194,"text":"委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":7526.542,"end":7531.164,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7555.209,"end":7558.45,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7579.743,"end":7581.185,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7596.841,"end":7614.442,"text":"本席對我們的海洋的變化以及海洋的保育的觀念日益受到重視那目前法律單一或是多種的目標的海洋保育的對象也負累整體海域環境的保護因此本席也非常贊同海洋的保護做出更積極的貢獻"},{"start":7616.304,"end":7633.668,"text":"尤其我們也要呼籲國際以及永續的發展全球的生物多樣性的公約提升台灣海域的呼籲海洋的生物多樣性營造一個健康的生態那我們所牽動的還有環保以及產業雙重的課程"},{"start":7638.449,"end":7653.823,"text":"制定了推動的過程有哪一些需要跟社會溝通以及行政的協調請主委來做說明一下跟專委報告就是說整個海洋保育法牽涉到的最核心關鍵的當然是我們要劃設庇護區"},{"start":7657.026,"end":7658.067,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7677.416,"end":7680.578,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7707.132,"end":7729.01,"text":"所以各界經過一次又一次的溝通以後拿出來的這個版本都用這個最務實最要去多贏或雙贏的機制來做海洋的報告就是審議會的機制這個審議會的機制是很要緊的一個關鍵中間的關鍵就是說我所有議會有關的各方面都進來了"},{"start":7736.576,"end":7742.978,"text":"大眾議員,我們好好談,我們知道說要報告,很快就無法報告了。 但是你如何報告的情形之下,我們有辦法好三省、省台報告的效果,還有辦法雙贏,沒有去影響到企業及影響到其他現有的事項。"},{"start":7758.724,"end":7767.117,"text":"所以讓大家進來講講到大家有共識的東西才有辦法出去所以這就是一部我所講的有的人說補修我寧願說是物實"},{"start":7774.088,"end":7775.47,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":7793.609,"end":7798.57,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函"},{"start":7812.454,"end":7817.839,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":7834.895,"end":7838.618,"text":"這就是整個溝通的過程。過去這幾年的中間,我來進行就已經有很多溝通。但是我來這幾年的中間,最要改變的是這個面目。就是經過這些溝通,困難的溝通,但是非常深入及非常徹底的溝通後,"},{"start":7858.275,"end":7859.296,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7878.729,"end":7879.649,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7902.498,"end":7903.838,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．"},{"start":7918.723,"end":7924.828,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":7946.824,"end":7948.566,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":7963.432,"end":7970.855,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":7987.742,"end":7992.946,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":8009.517,"end":8011.439,"text":"美國現在拜登總統他也想要在他的任內去為一個保護庫所以他現在有一個原住民的相關的保護庫已經有處刑了他這個處刑到公民審議所15年了15年才為一個保護庫"},{"start":8030.1,"end":8035.403,"text":"所以這條路是一個很凍結的路,沒有以前走的真的是不會浮啊,我們的魚都抓不到啊。好,主委,因為我大致上,我看早上我們的所有的委員對於我們的海洋保護法的推動應該大家都會贊成啦,但是你後面都是溝通的方面,是,永無止境的努力,要跟各單位保安"},{"start":8056.115,"end":8077.459,"text":"議會還有環保人士、產業人士我們都要結合去溝通因為台灣海洋的資源是非常豐富尤其你說在我們的花蓮、台東以及我們離島這是我們海洋值得去維護這是我們共同努力謝謝,謝謝召委謝謝,我們感謝吳清明召委我們請徐欣盈委員"},{"start":8093.796,"end":8099.059,"text":"本席有請管主委。請問您就任海委會主委以來,最念茲在茲的業務是什麼?"},{"start":8115.592,"end":8141.885,"text":"各位委員報告我關心的事情非常的多那海保法當然是我心頭非常重視的一塊那另外就是海巡的同仁還有海巡的同仁執法環境他們的裝備的工具環境還有他們的福利待遇環境這三大環境"},{"start":8148.433,"end":8152.92,"text":"本席在想說你的念茲在茲應該不會是宜居的辦公廳吧?您可能沒有看齁這個"},{"start":8160.024,"end":8175.649,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113"},{"start":8186.252,"end":8206.018,"text":"解凍報告108頁有講海委會規劃在今年的6月要舉辦海線安全國際會議討論的議程很多有區域安全趨勢競爭局勢發展以及打擊海上犯罪海灘搜救合作等等請問主委"},{"start":8210.1,"end":8218.805,"text":"這個海線安全的國際會議有沒有邀請中國大陸方面相關的專家學者或者是海巡機關?有嗎?我們目前是還沒有為什麼?"},{"start":8226.04,"end":8241.128,"text":"我們台灣海線安全我想隨便路上問一個國人都可以知道我們台灣海線安全最重要的大概就中國大陸跟菲律賓你中國大陸沒有邀請那你開這個海線會議"},{"start":8242.689,"end":8249.291,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8272.296,"end":8295.873,"text":"非立法院等有啦那至於說中國大陸呢中國大陸其實我認為所以你這個海洋安全會議開辦的實質意義真的很大我來跟處長來指示一下來努力看看好不好所以你們這樣的一個解凍報告我們怎麼可能同意通過再來本席再請教126到128頁"},{"start":8299.784,"end":8328.744,"text":"這個有引述海洋基本法第10條第一項規定保障與傳承原住民傳統用海的用海及權益那結果你海保法草案變成尊重我們對原住民族傳統是從保障與傳承變成尊重這樣會不會太不尊重我們有條文不是尊重而是要遂行原住民基本法的原住民諮商同意喔有有有百分之百"},{"start":8329.644,"end":8333.506,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8358.957,"end":8372.421,"text":"在整個的解凍報告裡面還有很多問題因為時間的關係我們這次會議三種合在一起根本不夠問所以本席不同意解凍因為整個的解凍報告問題非常多"},{"start":8375.222,"end":8403.784,"text":"再來本席想就海洋保育法草案的部分就叫管主委那整個海洋保育法是社會大眾的期待在我們之前在本席之前所有委員也都非常的關切海洋保育法我們希望可以事權統一而且能夠把整個海洋的保育真的能夠整合起來但是我們看到的海洋保育法是你在屈就過去本來就不屬"},{"start":8404.545,"end":8414.033,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":8430.287,"end":8432.189,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":8449.051,"end":8463.167,"text":"但是我們的海委會變成沒事你可以召開所有的會議有事推給各單位小事推給各單位大事往上到行政院你的草案裡面整個的精神就是如此"},{"start":8464.068,"end":8471.672,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8491.624,"end":8500.595,"text":"海洋一小塊保育法你不是整個的海洋保育法但是我們是希望你承擔起來我們是希望你承擔一個整合管理我們把現有的保護區有一個整合管理的機制出來"},{"start":8510.106,"end":8511.647,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":8534.24,"end":8545.705,"text":"針對海洋委員會的業務本席也想請教就是我們最近大陸公船親門踏戶最近一次距離我們海岸只有0.5海里這點您知道嗎?"},{"start":8546.533,"end":8553.477,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8566.718,"end":8586.778,"text":"那您之前公開的跟我們的漁民臺灣的漁民這個呼籲說如果碰到大陸海警要登船臨檢你請他們就這個駕駛他們的漁船就就這個不要接受叫他們離開那請本希翔請問你你對於"},{"start":8587.619,"end":8601.289,"text":"大陸海警執法的SOP你有掌握嗎?他們會不會開槍?會不會噴射水柱?會不會前往追緝?我現在問你,你知不知道大陸海警執法的SOP目前為止的這兩次的凍結是政治升高情勢時候的認知性的凍結"},{"start":8612.287,"end":8635.548,"text":"委員 就是在去年4月份的律政新章的前後不是啊 所以你這樣呼籲漁民有沒有聽懂他聽到你呼籲他們如果就這樣你有沒有了解大陸海警的SOP這個是我們處理的SOP這一次的海警他沒有驚擾到我不是說這一次我是說你呼籲我們漁民遇到大陸的這種要凍結"},{"start":8636.989,"end":8638.392,"text":"兩岸的關係雖然緊張但是我們知道有某種節制在裡面"},{"start":8648.382,"end":8653.067,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8671.445,"end":8681.391,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8692.077,"end":8696.038,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8715.845,"end":8717.126,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8735.819,"end":8739.561,"text":"當我們把中國假設成是一個會對你開槍的人的時候那我們還允許他到船上來不是更危險嗎?所以我們不是這樣談問題我沒有說假設他怎麼樣我再問你你了不了解大陸海警執法的SOP他的SOP是怎麼樣?"},{"start":8761.169,"end":8763.911,"text":"政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":8777.438,"end":8784.661,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8802.611,"end":8813.434,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員"},{"start":8835.742,"end":8857.372,"text":"請問一下管主委國防部的邱國正部長在3月7號在立法院被詢的時候表示他每天提心吊膽睡得不好那CNN著名的國際情勢的分析節目的主持人也在最新的一篇的評論文章中提出台海情勢沒有最危險只有更危險"},{"start":8858.613,"end":8877.089,"text":"所以目前在金門的這個之前在金門的海巡署取締的大陸的這個傳播的時候發生衝撞那也造成大陸方兩死的不幸事件隨後大陸的船艦也屢次進入我國的這個海域最近一次是在新竹海域有三艘的大型漁船進入我國領海"},{"start":8878.11,"end":8881.636,"text":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8893.477,"end":8908.312,"text":"跟委員報告我想政治性的語言我如果多說的話又是風風雨雨請委員原諒我我不直接用政治性的語言來回答這個課題我只能夠說"},{"start":8909.753,"end":8925.951,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113"},{"start":8926.972,"end":8930.793,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":8950.04,"end":8973.273,"text":"原先規劃的淨限制海域或者是以前所謂的海岸的中線海峽中線是不是就沒有了那是不是民進黨這樣就有喪失主權而且面對大陸的處處禁閉守足無措呢各位委員報告因為一次的驅離遇到這樣的海象跟遇到調度上這樣的情境"},{"start":8973.933,"end":8978.176,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":8996.451,"end":9002.573,"text":"美國都替我們覺得很擔心所以我希望的是這樣就是說針對這個部分我們當然希望旱事不要再發生未來要怎麼加強我們海巡署的裝備讓我們在整個的執勤的過程中大家海巡弟兄都能夠有很充分的準備然後所有的該依法行政的該執勤的我們絕對會尊重但是還是希望未來 對"},{"start":9020.458,"end":9024.799,"text":"主委支持海巡弟兄在依法執政的時候我就是盡全力幫海巡找資源去年3月我就要求全面盤點4月要求盤點的結果要建案7月的時候就有個除息"},{"start":9045.203,"end":9045.624,"text":"海洋保育法"},{"start":9061.545,"end":9076.102,"text":"海洋保育的觀念日益受到重視我們也都非常支持海洋保育但是現行的海洋保育跟利用有野生動物保育法國家公園法、濕地保育法、國土地"},{"start":9076.682,"end":9081.286,"text":"總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案及所屬預算凍結50萬元書面報告案及所屬預算凍結50萬元書面報告案及所屬預算凍結50萬元書面報告案及所屬預算凍結50萬元"},{"start":9094.678,"end":9096.94,"text":"總共海域面積5400平方公里各部會所訂的海洋保育法規的實際執行情形成效如何?"},{"start":9115.707,"end":9131.729,"text":"各部會的法規名稱不一樣不是叫做海洋保育法有的是海洋保育法規他們目前實施的成效如何我們今年會有一個評鑑制度往前走"},{"start":9132.349,"end":9156.582,"text":"過去我們也曾經有過考核剛剛也有委員把110年跟111年的考核的結果呈現了一下我自己過去當委員的時候也曾經質疑過說為什麼成效不彰過去確實是這樣海保署經過一個平台一個保護區的治理平台之後進步很多"},{"start":9158.323,"end":9160.186,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函"},{"start":9172.369,"end":9186.965,"text":"管主委,2019年海洋基本法通過以後有提到兩年內要自定執法,為什麼拖到這個時候才送出來?因為沒有共識,所以溝通非常久。"},{"start":9190.609,"end":9202.054,"text":"包括各用海單位利害關係的各方,一定是各方有共識,部會才會有共識。今天漁業署署長也在,我們是不是請署長也說明一下呢?"},{"start":9208.377,"end":9221.371,"text":"這個部分我想要了解就是說因為其實從2019的海洋基本法通過之後應該是2021就要提出嘛今天已經2024的所以說我在想啦為什麼在大選之前你們不提出然後現在大選過後就急忙的提出所以是不是有選票的考量"},{"start":9231.401,"end":9245.838,"text":"跟委員報告在去年也就是上個會期的時候我們草案剛做好可是最後一波漁業署還是建議我們說來跟漁業界再做溝通所以上個會期卡住是因為漁業署希望我們"},{"start":9246.198,"end":9247.439,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":9274.69,"end":9275.411,"text":"有跟漁民溝通嗎?開了多少場座談會跟公聽會?"},{"start":9280.185,"end":9305.723,"text":"我們在我自己有參加的部分我們就是跟區域會的幹部區域會總幹事的會議我自己參加的至少就有三場然後我們海保署的同仁也做了其他很多的溝通甚至於是一個區域會一個區域會的當面的去拜訪我們把所有的區域會都走過一圈跟主委講說"},{"start":9307.484,"end":9325.643,"text":"其實我到目前為止還是收到很多餘會的陳情表示我們的溝通還不是很完善所以我在這邊也要求海委會要分區辦理公聽會等會整好大家的意見之後我們再來逐條審查跟委員報告我剛剛有說明"},{"start":9326.844,"end":9339.666,"text":"平率最高的溝通不是這個時候這個時候如果不往前走你永遠沒辦法走到真正需要溝通的那個階段因為這個海保法通過之後最會影響到的就是漁民的權益那如果連漁會都沒有辦法得到你們的認同的話那這樣的海洋保育法通過之後那造成漁業的損失造成漁民的損失誰來負責所以我想這個部分本身就是這樣的一個要求"},{"start":9356.149,"end":9383.545,"text":"那另外針對海洋保護法的條文也跟管主委請教幾個問題就是請問管主委對於海洋保護法要新設的海洋庇護區其中分為永續利用區緩衝區核心區請問海洋庇護區的範圍有多大要怎麼界定這個現在沒辦法回答我們取這個最出名的這個大保礁的這個保護區來看的話他只有他的庇護區只有5%而已很少"},{"start":9384.045,"end":9386.547,"text":"海洋保育的保護區的核心區是很曲折、很細長的,主委會針對會審慎的、循序漸進的處理嗎?"},{"start":9409.46,"end":9427.66,"text":"主委的意思是這樣嗎?那個是在未來畫社的時候,絕對是那樣的一個過程。那另外本席也希望我們省議會的成員,因為剛剛講過這對於漁業、對於漁民的權益損害非常大,所以本席在這邊要求是不是有二分之一可以是漁民代表?"},{"start":9429.174,"end":9447.357,"text":"二分之一是漁民代表這個部分我認為會需要很多很審慎的考論請主委再審慎的考慮一下因為我覺得對於這個受害權益最大是漁民那請主委再審慎考慮那另外還有就是說針對這個部分的話這個轉變可能會導致漁民的收入減少特別是對於小規模跟傳統的漁業來說春季最大"},{"start":9455.819,"end":9460.861,"text":"所以請問海洋委員會要怎麼協助還有農業部是不是可以提供什麼措施來保障漁民還有因為這個海洋保育法裡面並沒有提到任何補償的措施所以我們說規範沒有協助所以說會對漁民相當不利所以海洋委員會是不是可以提出更具體的措施來保障漁民的權益跟委員報告第一個就是審議會的成員一定是有他們"},{"start":9481.388,"end":9484.235,"text":"第2個就是我們有信賴保護嗎?"},{"start":9484.235,"end":9490.228,"text":"漁權會受到保障嗎?那另外就是那目前沒有更具體的保障漁民的權益嗎?"},{"start":9491.409,"end":9512.497,"text":"有,像這兩個就是很重要的保障當中就是重要的保障當中的兩項那另外一個是它沒有排除適用漁業法的補償是有漁業法部分的補償是可以適用的對,是,它如果真的有影響的時候那請問一下在海上捕魚要怎麼樣才能界定有沒有實質的影響"},{"start":9516.12,"end":9536.94,"text":"最後一個問題再請教一下管主委就是目前的草案規定如果誤闖海洋庇護區的核心區要罰款50萬元但是漁民怎麼會知道海洋庇護區的範圍海上又沒有柵欄也沒有帷幕核心區又在哪所以如果停船捕魚那因為潮流的關係讓他不小心進入核心區那要不要處罰"},{"start":9538.852,"end":9555.438,"text":"這個未來的機制會一定要讓漁民知道什麼地方是海洋的庇護區然後重要的標示的方法在坐標上面的標示的方法所以我希望能夠定定標準的作業流程好嗎"},{"start":9557.198,"end":9558.179,"text":"提供相關資料與作法給本席參考。"},{"start":9616.124,"end":9620.475,"text":"總預算有關海洋業務及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":9635.486,"end":9637.046,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．函．函．函．函．函"},{"start":9651.548,"end":9673.524,"text":"中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函"},{"start":9683.591,"end":9708.191,"text":"總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":9724.736,"end":9737.563,"text":"函函函函函函函函函函函函函函"},{"start":9741.259,"end":9745.023,"text":"函函函函函函函函函"},{"start":9756.497,"end":9775.318,"text":"中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":9778.359,"end":9797.744,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案。 凍結50萬元書面報告案。 凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":9800.845,"end":9820.773,"text":"中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":9828.484,"end":9841.679,"text":"《海洋行政委員會》《海洋行政委員會》《海洋行政委員會》"},{"start":9849.017,"end":9857.343,"text":"函．函．函．函．函．函．函．函．函"},{"start":9870.313,"end":9887.679,"text":"函函函函函函函函函函函函函函函函"},{"start":9918.178,"end":9925.463,"text":"函函函函函函函函函函函函函函"},{"start":9941.408,"end":9954.895,"text":"總預算有關海洋業務及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":9987.108,"end":10013.632,"text":"函．函．函．函．函．函．函．函．函"},{"start":10027.242,"end":10028.551,"text":"政府總預算有關海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":10038.623,"end":10056.318,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":10064.797,"end":10073.245,"text":"總預算有關海洋業務及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":10089.742,"end":10099.526,"text":"為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。"},{"start":10108.619,"end":10109.282,"text":"總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":10120.878,"end":10146.11,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10150.943,"end":10167.335,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10176.886,"end":10199.597,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10212.582,"end":10214.304,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請主任委員"},{"start":10240.479,"end":10257.589,"text":"行政院版的海洋保育法這個看了之後對原住民族的權益會影響非常非常的大而行政院版的海洋保育法只有第8條規定這個"},{"start":10261.564,"end":10288.79,"text":"第一項海洋庇護期保育計劃已經是屬於計劃的擬定計劃的擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域者中央主管機關因依原住民族基本法的規定辦理那已經是擬定那庇護期的劃設或是緩衝期還是什麼什麼期核心期庇護期保護期的劃設"},{"start":10290.1,"end":10294.802,"text":"函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":10321.587,"end":10346.679,"text":"第20條原計法20條政府承認原住民族自然資源的潛力海洋基本法也規定的很明確你都沒有提到海洋基本法海洋基本法政府應建立合一機制尊重維護保存傳農用海智慧等海洋文化資產"},{"start":10348.072,"end":10376.477,"text":"保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及權益這是海洋基本法第10條所明定的也應該要在海洋保育法裡面要去落實所以這個部分沒有規定然後海洋基本法第13條也規定保障原有海域者使用者權益所以這個部分也是一樣沒有落實在海洋保育法相關的條文裡面"},{"start":10378.343,"end":10392.016,"text":"國土計劃法 什麼是國土計劃 包含陸域及海域 海域包括海域我看國土計劃法怎麼規定 全國國土計劃中特定期之內容"},{"start":10398.035,"end":10423.121,"text":"如涉及原住民族土地及海域者應依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理並由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關擬定。國土計畫第23條涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制使用管制使用管制應依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理"},{"start":10426.073,"end":10441.181,"text":"並由中央主管局會同中央原子民主機關擬定所以這裏面海洋保育法對於庇護期對於緩衝期對於保護期都有很多的管制結果都沒有提到私地保育法"},{"start":10447.017,"end":10473.36,"text":"涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時﹐合訂前應以當地原住民族諮商並取得其同意。海岸管理法第10條海岸保護漆或海岸防護漆之劃設劃設的時候就如同"},{"start":10474.42,"end":10502.511,"text":"屁股期的劃設海洋保護期的劃設屁股期的劃設涉及原住民族地區各級主管機關應會商原住民族委員會擬定我要談的是什麼呢這個之前海洋管理法、濕地管理法、國土計劃法都之前都是立法院三讀通過的法例"},{"start":10503.649,"end":10531.59,"text":"都會因為原住民族基本法的規定然後去定了這些然後我們現在要定這個要制定海洋保育法然後海洋基本法也規定得很清楚但是只有計劃的擬定的時候對於化射庇護漆海洋庇護漆海洋保護漆或是緩沖漆"},{"start":10533.88,"end":10561.676,"text":"這些好幾個區畫設的時候我愛畫什麼畫不管你原住民族原有的海域所以這個部分是需要去好好的去檢視所以這個部分這個主委我後面還有條文我還沒有把它放完最主要就是說這個整個我們相關的這些規定"},{"start":10563.272,"end":10588.395,"text":"真的是欠缺所以這個部分我不知道我不知道在草擬這個草案的時候相關機關的意見原住民族的意見或者是移民的意見移民的意見有沒有去被考量看起來是沒有被考量"},{"start":10589.347,"end":10614.078,"text":"跟委員報告這些過程都有很多的討論那最後選擇的這個機制是分成兩個層次就是把原住民諮商同意放在這個計劃的部分他可以進入更細節那細節是最重要的那個細節是最重要那前面的部分是用審議會的方式就進來了"},{"start":10615.539,"end":10639.612,"text":"所以到底是要審議會也諮商同意然後計劃也諮商同意還是說審議會諮商同意然後計劃的時候不用諮商同意還是說現在這樣審議會的時候大家進來要有共識才會成行然後計劃的細節最關鍵的這個部分用諮商同意那最後的討論是用這個機制這個主委我就擠這個"},{"start":10645.586,"end":10666.815,"text":"行政院版第10條海洋聘務期資緩衝期內非經主管機關席可禁止從事下列行為這裏面就是包含了財普海洋生物所以我們就變成這個我們就完全就被說沒有這個也要審議會通過"},{"start":10668.816,"end":10695.241,"text":"對委員這一條裡面講的排除就是所謂的禁限制行為那禁限制行為也是需要遂行審議會的機制所以也一定會原住民相關都會進來要有共識才有可能會成行各位主委我還是要明定在條文裡面當然我有提出我的版本了到時候請海洋委員會"},{"start":10696.918,"end":10712.751,"text":"能夠採納本席的條文以上謝謝委員好謝謝我們鄭天才委員的執行好謝謝好下一位我們侯孟凱委員好謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請管主委好請我們管主委"},{"start":10727.234,"end":10750.58,"text":"管主委好管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢討我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦玩了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明定兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本"},{"start":10751.8,"end":10772.575,"text":"本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教"},{"start":10773.456,"end":10780.079,"text":"海洋庇護區有審議會要組成與設置目前審議會組成是由專家、學者、民間團體以及相關代表人不得少於委員的二分之一主要是確保獨立性與公正性有關機關的代表有哪些?"},{"start":10798.913,"end":10818.092,"text":"要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話策來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛"},{"start":10819.714,"end":10834.132,"text":"經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業重中之重,原住民也一樣。所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?"},{"start":10834.853,"end":10835.974,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案"},{"start":10850.749,"end":10855.171,"text":"您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦"},{"start":10877.941,"end":10892.121,"text":"包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面"},{"start":10892.881,"end":10897.825,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":10918.237,"end":10938.751,"text":"好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版"},{"start":10939.211,"end":10963.671,"text":"我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎?廣泛的聽取委員們的討論以後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是"},{"start":10968.343,"end":10987.577,"text":"即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的"},{"start":10989.169,"end":11013.606,"text":"實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是個案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的是感謝主委認同遵守利益迴避名譽一定要進來譬如說我這個產業別一定要進來但是個案的當事人"},{"start":11014.686,"end":11030.445,"text":"請容本席要提醒我們海洋委員會身為海洋保育法的主管機關其實重點還是在於保育重點還是在於永續重點還是在於是讓我們的海洋資源遠遠流長不斷為我們這一代人跟下一代人來做努力跟守護嘛"},{"start":11031.346,"end":11050.559,"text":"所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢"},{"start":11051.567,"end":11054.668,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11078.669,"end":11106.736,"text":"只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育為什麼因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動"},{"start":11107.892,"end":11109.993,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":11134.867,"end":11135.207,"text":"主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同"},{"start":11166.208,"end":11187.519,"text":"所以我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區"},{"start":11188.439,"end":11198.008,"text":"那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您"},{"start":11200.321,"end":11224.239,"text":"指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這一些保育的工作嘛"},{"start":11224.759,"end":11240.024,"text":"所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具。當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛。"},{"start":11240.384,"end":11243.606,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告"},{"start":11270.464,"end":11290.183,"text":"主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出"},{"start":11292.625,"end":11317.043,"text":"本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋,我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算假的可以嗎?"},{"start":11319.628,"end":11345.164,"text":"提出來已經是很重要的了,很無奈了,完全不要打假球,好不好?今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?完全不要打假球,好不好?這是本席給海委會的期許跟期待。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心,就是一個很大的懷疑。玩了3年,但是王陽博老有位玩意,玩真的,不要打假球。提醒的利益迴避的那個個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。"},{"start":11346.665,"end":11346.925,"text":"請採納本席的意見。"},{"start":11376.773,"end":11396.518,"text":"主委好 關委員好昨天在答覆陳一貞委員質詢就是大陸的輕屋船進入了我們金門的劉武殿航道那麼因為之前就是從早上我們的陳建仁院長還有您都說不可以不允許那麼後來陸委會我先講完然後到了陸委會"},{"start":11400.499,"end":11415.951,"text":"後來說按照2015年公告就是這個客貨運的船舶是被允許經過金門的限制禁限制海域進入廈門港可是呢後來我們的海巡署"},{"start":11416.471,"end":11431.437,"text":"有發新聞稿說因為青屋船並不屬於客貨運所以那麼他還是不被允許的那我想請問一下為什麼在一天之內會有這樣子不同的版本"},{"start":11433.057,"end":11446.962,"text":"跟委員報告海巡署當天確實是有出去廣播驅離那為什麼海巡署會執行廣播驅離呢?沒有,您答非所謂,我的意思是說你們回答,不管是回答陳一正委員"},{"start":11450.123,"end":11453.345,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11466.573,"end":11483.192,"text":"今天陸委會沒有來對但是因為陸委會中間曾經說根據2015這個公告陸委會沒有參加公告這個公告是國防部海巡署跟交通部門三方公告所以不包含陸委會陸委會不在"},{"start":11483.652,"end":11484.152,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11499.423,"end":11501.064,"text":"2015年的公告你們還承不承認呢?2015年的公告都在執行中,我們最近都還有核准函"},{"start":11517.054,"end":11519.156,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11544.276,"end":11561.435,"text":"請問一下這個青屋船的噸位有多大像大陸青屋船說有上萬噸它的噸位大概都是在三五千但是這一次的我不知道它確實的噸位我不敢確定那我要跟委員報告最大會到多少"},{"start":11562.336,"end":11562.877,"text":"會有上萬噸嗎?"},{"start":11562.877,"end":11585.556,"text":"這次進來的是一千多噸我們很少看到有到萬噸的這種船所以在我們的能力是足以驅離的?我們一定驅離,也有能力驅離另外再請教一下,署長或主委答都可以"},{"start":11588.82,"end":11608.315,"text":"昨天馬文君委員提出海巡署副署長有證實有三艘大陸漁船進入領海6海浬之內這還不是淨限制海域這已經進入了領海之內問題是既然進入領海其實這已經符合第1級了"},{"start":11618.834,"end":11631.884,"text":"但是呢我們沒有做立刻的就是強制驅離那麼海巡署副署長是說當天呢是有全程監控那麼巡航艇也出去了只是啊當天呢浪"},{"start":11633.208,"end":11658.947,"text":"海浪達到7、8級最高陣風到10級所以已經超過我們的耐浪級數那麼可是你可以看到前兩天我們蔡總統的臉書特別講到臺灣照大船特別提到我們海巡署一樣的會照好幾艘的大船而且呢雲林艦跟臺北艦都礁船下水4000噸他們大概都4000噸的那個級數"},{"start":11661.309,"end":11682.729,"text":"那所以我就想請教了既然我們現在有陸陸續續的這些大船可以做驅離那為什麼當大陸三艘漁船進入了我們的領海我們卻只派出行航艇然後說因為耐讓極速不夠啊"},{"start":11683.595,"end":11685.856,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11709.187,"end":11731.023,"text":"沒有問題,像今天這個狀況,剛剛委員所提到的狀況,當天的海象是10級,那通常,我要講這個背景資料先給委員報告一下,通常像這種海象的時候,陸船它都會靠近海岸,因為它要尋求更好的海象,所以它也是為了一個安全,對。"},{"start":11732.404,"end":11760.591,"text":"所以我們認為像這個case是安全起見像這種case那天的風浪這麼大我們一定是雷達全程監控那同時我們的船有部署在峽北、峽南、峽中那它那個水域正好是我們臺中港海巡隊的一個管轄區域那臺中港管轄的區域正好在中間那我們當然那天就直接中部分署長就派遣這個100噸的先出去"},{"start":11761.551,"end":11768.434,"text":"循環艇100噸,100噸根本不可能驅離但是我跟委員報告實際上我們有一個3000噸在海上所以如果當海上風浪比較大的時候我們就不會說一定強制的去驅離是這樣的嗎?我們會驅離但是我們會試海上的狀況像我們在七美經常他們一來就是幾十艘在避風"},{"start":11788.882,"end":11813.256,"text":"在這種避風的狀況下我們是在旁邊監控它等到這一波的海象一過了之後他們就會離開那如果沒有離開我們的船就會進去驅離因為我時間比較短一點但我有一件事情我覺得很重要就是我們在這一次的金門海域撞船事件發生之後我們發現我們離島的海巡密陸去是嚴重裝置不足的"},{"start":11817.799,"end":11818.119,"text":"主委可不可以承諾?"},{"start":11838.8,"end":11865.154,"text":"包含48分數我先謝謝委員很重要真的很感謝委員我們秘錄器是夠但是因為現在的配比不是一人一支而是一個勤務一支所以我們未來要變成一人一支所以要補3000支但是因為委員的這一次的提醒我們在記者會上知道了以後我們立刻調播剛剛委員所提到離島不足"},{"start":11866.154,"end":11870.595,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":11895.629,"end":11901.133,"text":"陳靜宇委員不在楊瓊英委員謝謝謝謝主席本席想邀請主委請管主委"},{"start":11924.4,"end":11928.222,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":11941.647,"end":11955.997,"text":"本席也跟許多的委員一樣也就是我相信主委你也是一樣也就是說不論是國安、人道、執法這樣子的面向都不能接受沒有密錄器沒有畫面 對不對"},{"start":11957.538,"end":11984.343,"text":"這個我們真的需要凍加的檢討但是這一次的情況我們了解到小船因為是CP艇然後這樣的一個追擊之下的那個浪的狀況所以海巡的人也非常的辛苦我們都知道所以在這樣的情況之下主委你也不斷的來對說就是說兩岸雙方的協商落幕呢是有期待的"},{"start":11984.943,"end":11989.85,"text":"但是經過這20天協商了15次結果目前的狀況"},{"start":11991.796,"end":12019.946,"text":"我們當然覺得非常的遺憾沒有完成就是等於協商15次後破局嘛對不對有幾個我們願意持續的來努力朝向後續的發展來努力趕快找到優先的解決方法在你這一次協商這15、20天當然很辛苦15次的協商破局最主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":12021.498,"end":12022.659,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12052.359,"end":12067.745,"text":"會不會影響到兩岸的溝通對話空間更困難?請說明。各位委員報告因為這一次的事件我印象是在4月17號的時候開始我們就發現說這個過程我們大家都非常清楚本期要請問政治結合的結果因為跟政治綁在一起的結果"},{"start":12073.968,"end":12078.712,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12101.869,"end":12103.491,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12126.392,"end":12130.895,"text":"這一個溝通的對話空間是不是會有影響?我們很希望說這件事情還是能夠執法的各案的角度來面對然後如果把兩岸之間的政治的議題綁進來的時候確實對話上就會遇到很多卡卡的問題"},{"start":12151.088,"end":12157.132,"text":"這一次破局的主要原因是什麼?請做說明。謝謝委員的關心。我想我們經過這麼多次的溝通跟協商,我想在這個過程當中,其實我們也有達成一些共識,雙方都有在這個過程當中,我們現在都是各自把各自的旗艦帶回來,他們帶回去,我們帶回來。"},{"start":12180.549,"end":12182.532,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12198.271,"end":12223.727,"text":"當然希望繼續能夠有這個平台協商我們也透過各個可能的機構來協助我們不管是海基會對方的海協會紅十字會跟一些相關的單位都在做剛剛我們主委特別提到我們也希望能夠在最短的時間之內站在人道關懷的立場我們給家屬最多的照顧這是我們從一開始就沒有變的原則"},{"start":12224.568,"end":12229.411,"text":"好,所以換句話說,我們仍舊期待溝通對話的空間,仍舊是持續的。好,謝謝你。接下來我們針對於落海裡的事件,那大家也都非常的關心,到目前為止,現在漁船進入領海的,是不是成為常態啊?"},{"start":12246.46,"end":12248.241,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．"},{"start":12277.061,"end":12284.793,"text":"去把那個陰陰靜靜的空間在書面之內給本席因為我們知道海軍相關的灰色地帶那青島的有病毒嗎?"},{"start":12288.12,"end":12292.904,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12314.249,"end":12336.136,"text":"最近傳出這個流五電航道的這個問題不管是各方政府各方所講的不知道是什麼答案也好但是問題是到底輕忽傳進去可行不可行我跟委員特別報告這個所公告的這個流五電的航道當初的主體對象就是客貨輪"},{"start":12337.788,"end":12337.808,"text":"請問署長"},{"start":12366.201,"end":12394.556,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他是沒報備的,那麼是不是對岸有在切香腸,書菌漸進,會不會?我想他這個水稻的這個淤青啊,他是這個書菌啊,他是一個每3年一個週期,他這一次的週期是2022到2024,所以他都是一個正常的一個書菌。好,所以正常的書菌,而且也不是切香腸,那表示什麼呢?表示還是有正常的溝通,"},{"start":12395.812,"end":12396.813,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案"},{"start":12416.733,"end":12428.449,"text":"所以本屆具體要求戰略的溝通概念是對國內外介入到底有沒有壓迫的情況那麼我們是不是應該要這麼做讓人民能夠去安心"},{"start":12428.888,"end":12433.069,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12450.514,"end":12453.876,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":12467.043,"end":12491.619,"text":"我們主條的時候會聽取所有委員的指教然後在整個的審議跟協商的過程之中我的立場我當然就是支持院辦但是在那協商的過程之中會非常充分的來討論我們的立場共同目標就是怎麼樣讓我們的海洋能夠得到保護能夠跟世界接軌是不是這個原則是我們很希望是這樣謝謝"},{"start":12495.912,"end":12499.816,"text":"政政前政政前政政前委員不在那我們下一位中嘉賓委員中嘉賓委員中嘉賓委員不在"},{"start":12516.808,"end":12539.457,"text":"張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在。 樓明采委員、樓明采委員、樓明采委員不在。 邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。 蘇清淺委員、蘇清淺委員、蘇清淺委員不在。 蔡易瑜委員在。"},{"start":12548.707,"end":12554.009,"text":"海洋業務委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋業務委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12571.277,"end":12582.064,"text":"需要壓迫需要盤查就是要大膽去做因為守護我們的海洋尤其遇到商務船隻的時候怎麼可能會頓跌呢"},{"start":12584.084,"end":12604.295,"text":"各位委員報告那個勇氣的保護我是非常非常堅持的因為那個是在一念之間當我們決定要去凍結的時候雙方都是都是鋒利來浪利去的沒有錯因為在海上嘛雙方一樣危險對啊海上你說那個海印無法預測當我們的海巡人員還要凍結欸凍結會不會有風險"},{"start":12609.338,"end":12610.358,"text":"有啊,稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":12635.265,"end":12658.926,"text":"因為這個執法的決心跟執法的勇氣是我們國家很寶貴的執法所以主委 我覺得我們這種態度我們態度很堅定我們怎麼能預判說那個看起來山無船隻我們不用把它定義叫漁船走私船都有可能我們幹嘛去幫他們預斷它就是漁船"},{"start":12662.049,"end":12691.124,"text":"所以我會這麼強烈的在這一次一定無論如何捍衛執法的正當性其實就如同委員所說的這個執法的決心跟願意不顧自己的生死去保護我們的海江在第一線在海江這裡我覺得我們真的是在這個事件裡面這個社會是需要給我們整個海巡我們的弟兄"},{"start":12691.912,"end":12713.188,"text":"更大的掌聲才對我們當然我們當然也是大公無私不偏不倚然後剪掉來看有沒有執法過當那我們目前所掌握的事證就讓我真的要要非常強力的來捍衛我們這一次的執法好嗯謝謝主委那我是第二個我來來"},{"start":12715.23,"end":12718.291,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12742.56,"end":12758.511,"text":"政委吳政委的主導之下包括海委會包括我們水利署甚至我們國海院事實上大家都投入啦是因為這個外産頂周我們看得出來大概就是因為"},{"start":12759.795,"end":12772.741,"text":"雲林美寮港的一個建設之後它的沙源的補充是來不及整個外山警州這個沙的一個流失所以它就是漸漸消失從1700公頃到現在大概剩下900公頃差不多存一半多了過去了婚姻雲林縣政府有在那邊插門牌"},{"start":12782.125,"end":12789.195,"text":"所外産頂周是雲林的然後查了一個門牌我跟主委報告那個門牌的地方現在沒有路了現在變壞了已經變壞了所以這個就是變成說外産頂周在"},{"start":12795.666,"end":12796.646,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案。 凍結50萬元書面報告案。 凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":12824.924,"end":12851.245,"text":"這中央政府的意思是什麼?因為我們這個風太來,因為那整個外產廠算白痴痴的刷所以那個硬啊,直接打下去就把刷子往裡面又內推回去所以不斷的內推,然後也造成整個東石的外海這邊開始就是內陸化,這個害不起來所以這個就影響到了未來整個不管是我們的漁業啦,不管是養科產業,全部都受影響"},{"start":12852.427,"end":12860.538,"text":"所以主委我覺得那個預計船都根本進出都沒辦法對阿我們目前是用載我們目前的計劃用載為布地槓或是說要為婚姻八岡溪那裡清出來的土都載過去"},{"start":12869.19,"end":12870.831,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":12894.984,"end":12909.792,"text":"不然我們現在做的很多方式有點在做白工而我們也花了我們預算在這幾年我們大概會投入10億來做外山頂洲的固砂但是我很擔心這樣的預算的投入會變成白工會做白工"},{"start":12913.397,"end":12932.765,"text":"主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。教育委員會報告,我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 教育委員會報告,我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有在那裡。因為他們的水利署也好,還是交通部也好,都有"},{"start":12933.405,"end":12957.997,"text":"生態工法我覺得很好,他們大概就是用一些石籠石籠然後在水那邊把它固定住也是他也是希望從這個根底這邊把沙Q掉,不對我們現在知道說他除了會把沙因為這個海的長浪很強嘛,會把沙往內推但是沙除了長浪再往內推之外,最主要是島上的沙留不住"},{"start":12959.537,"end":12965.12,"text":"主委我跟您報告,您想說我們教育它也婚姻的,它對婚姻,對婚姻感情那些沒話說的,我們這裡王美惠、黃婕、我,我們三個算自己做的"},{"start":12988.561,"end":13005.814,"text":"阿所以齁因為這個外山頂座我剛才講這個淤沙齁這一個淤沙的狀況變成雲林跟嘉義我們的漁港包括布袋山港都是嚴重的都嚴重的淤積嚴重的積積我現在看到海巡有兩艘齁雄帶鋪路的海巡艦嘉義艦4000萬噸級丁德白雲林艦4000噸40004000噸級對吧4000噸"},{"start":13015.962,"end":13016.424,"text":"海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":13024.736,"end":13025.096,"text":"海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":13049.154,"end":13069.927,"text":"所以我覺得我們有時候要正視這個問題就是外山頂洲的固沙然後也要配合這些漁港漁港的傾沙因為這些漁港如果照法令規定他們都要保持1.5米的一個深度目前比較深的時候差不多1米比較淺的時候可能都差不多60公分那時候要處理很危險"},{"start":13075.638,"end":13082.244,"text":"所以這也是變成一個問題,我們青砂每當開機都開幾個清盤在那邊清,我們沒辦法解決問題,所以這些問題都蹊蹺作會我覺得我們大家正式問題我們來推出一個外山頂周的固砂及漁港清淤的特別條例"},{"start":13097.938,"end":13100.38,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":13128.118,"end":13128.258,"text":"請查照案。"},{"start":13145.24,"end":13147.961,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":13165.546,"end":13172.05,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":13191.735,"end":13194.017,"text":"中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":13208.444,"end":13230.443,"text":"陳冠廷委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不在丁協中委員不"},{"start":13235.966,"end":13239.291,"text":"書面執行及未達付的部分請相關單位1週以內以書面回覆並付資本會。"},{"start":13247.964,"end":13273.714,"text":"那我們現在來進行我們的討論事項審查113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋屬所屬的決議海洋業務預算凍結50萬的書面報告案請各位委員恕我同意動之同意好同意好那我們就同意動之了"},{"start":13276.71,"end":13293.999,"text":"提報院會同意通知提報院會那報告委員會現在我們進行法案的審查請先讀討論事項二海洋保育法所有的條文修正動議請先讀"},{"start":13306.775,"end":13321.662,"text":"法名稱行政院提案海洋保育法委員楊瓊一等20人提案法名稱同行政院提案第一章章明行政院提案總則委員楊瓊一等20人提案章明同行政院提案第一條行政院提案"},{"start":13322.502,"end":13345.887,"text":"為保護海洋生態環境保育海洋生物多樣性協調並促進海洋保護區之規劃及執行特制定本法委員楊秋英等20人提案第一條為保護海洋生態環境保育與富裕海洋生物多樣性確保海洋生態系統健康促進海洋保護區以生態系統為基礎之整合規劃與執行及推動海洋保育教育特制定本法"},{"start":13346.767,"end":13372.497,"text":"委員楊秋英等20人提案第二條國家海洋保育目標為中華民國119年前保護至少30%的海域前項海域指中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法以內範圍行政院提案第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為海洋委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府前項直轄市縣市主管機關之管轄範圍由中央主管機關公告之"},{"start":13373.317,"end":13391.258,"text":"委員楊瓊英得二行政院提案第3條第一項同行政院提案第二項文字為前項直轄市縣市主管機關之管轄範圍以各直轄市縣市國土計劃法海洋資源地區為範圍行政院提案第3條本法用詞定義如下"},{"start":13391.818,"end":13414.487,"text":"一、海洋生物指海洋動物、海洋植物及海洋其他生物。海洋生物多樣性指所有海洋範圍內活的生物體中之變異性,包括物種內物種之間及生態系統之多樣性。三、保育指基於海洋生物多樣性及自然生態平衡之原則,對於海洋生物所謂保護、富裕、管理之行為。四、海洋保護區指一處海域或"},{"start":13415.667,"end":13439.357,"text":"該海域與其匹聯之若欲具有生物多樣性、特殊自然景觀、文化資產或永續利用之生態資源等依本法或其他法律所劃定進行保護之區域。五、海洋庇護區,指依本法所劃定之海洋保護區並得以核心區、緩衝區及永續利用區進行分區管理者。六、核心區,指為長期保護海洋生物、生態環境、生物多樣性"},{"start":13439.938,"end":13456.356,"text":"並提供學術研究因嚴格保護且限制人員進入及所有開發利用行為所劃定之區域。 7緩衝區指臨接貨環繞於核心區針對人文活動進行管理限制以保護核心區可作為研究發展所劃定之區域。 8永續利用區"},{"start":13457.117,"end":13472.032,"text":"指於核心區緩衝區之外為在無外海洋自然生態平衡之前提下容許海洋生物生態環境生物多樣性及天然資源之利用以獲取其文化教育學術經濟等效益所劃定之區域並永續管理及發展其資源。"},{"start":13472.973,"end":13493.306,"text":"吳仁陽、邱英德20人提案第4條本法用詞定義如下一、海洋生物細指海洋動物海洋植物及海洋其他生物二、海洋生物多樣性細指海洋生物體中之變異性包括物種內物種之間和生態系統的多樣性三、海洋保護區細指由各目的事業主管機關依本法或其他法律劃定之海域或包海"},{"start":13493.746,"end":13497.948,"text":"立法院第11屆第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第31屆第32屆第32屆第33屆第34屆第36屆第37屆第38屆第39屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第53屆第53屆第54屆第54屆第56屆第57屆第57屆第58屆第58屆第59屆第59屆第60屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第"},{"start":13512.413,"end":13537.073,"text":"發展區進行分區管理。 五、核心區細指為長期保護海洋生物生態環境生物多樣性並提供學術研究因嚴格保護限制所有開發利用行為與人員進入所劃設之區域。 六、緩衝區細指臨街或環繞於核心區針對人文活動有所管理限制以保護核心區可作為研究發展之區域其他具有生態潛力區域亦得獨立劃設。"},{"start":13538.354,"end":13566.483,"text":"七、永續發展區。 細指於核心區、緩衝區之外為在無碍海洋自然生態平衡之前提下容許海洋生物、生態環境、天然資源之有效利用以獲取其文化、教育、學術、經濟等效益所分之地區並永續管理及發展此區資源。八、海洋保育突發事件。 細指事件發生當時狀況無法事先預知且對海洋生態系統有造成不利之影響之餘。九、生態系統途徑。"},{"start":13568.483,"end":13584.708,"text":"應用適當的科學方法論注重生物組成之層級涵蓋生物及其環境之間之必要進程功能及交互作用為土地水體和生物資源之綜合管理策略以公平之方式促進保育及永續發展使累積效應"},{"start":13585.388,"end":13612.916,"text":"指仍違憾自然壓力兩者對環境造成之直接性和間接性綜合影響海洋生態系統受到各式海洋相關活動之影響。 11、預警原則若預警會有違憾環境之情況發生應事先進行相關之防範措施。 12、最佳可得科學資訊原則此相關措施應值基於充分的科學證據該證據是由收集而獲得之資料以及相關科學研究所生之成果具有相當之專業性可以信賴。"},{"start":13614.016,"end":13636.347,"text":"委員楊秋英等20人提案第5條為達成海洋生物多樣性永續發展及因應氣候變遷之目標中央主管及官應召開國家海洋保育審議會訂定國家海洋保育綱領明定海洋保護育整體規劃原則及推動海洋保護育等治理策略與機制到請行政院核定後實施作為各級政府海洋保護育海洋治理及規劃之依據"},{"start":13638.228,"end":13661.894,"text":"前項海洋保育綱領應每5年至少檢討一次國家海洋保育綱領之訂定及檢討應公開展覽30日及舉行聽證會行政院提案第4條為達成海洋生物多樣性之目標主管機關應採取各種海洋保育措施以保護海洋生物清洗環境協調並促進海洋保護區之整合規劃及執行委員楊瓊英等20人提案第6條"},{"start":13662.874,"end":13681.469,"text":"主管機關採取各種海洋保育措施保護海洋生物棲息環境及劃定海洋保護趨勢應考量對海洋保育有益之原則包含生態系統途徑、累積效應預警原則、最佳可得科學資訊等有利於海洋保育之原則整體海洋之利用應遵守永續利用之精神"},{"start":13682.898,"end":13708.883,"text":"第二章張明行政院提案海洋保護區委員楊瓊一等20人提案張明同行政院提案行政院提案第5條本法鎖定海洋保護區之類型包括下列地區之海域或該海域與其匹聯之陸域一、野生動物保護區二、野生動物中央棲息環境三、國家公園及國家自然公園四、國家風景特定區海域資源保護區五、水產動植物繁殖保育區"},{"start":13710.823,"end":13712.685,"text":"6.水下文化資產保護區7."},{"start":13712.685,"end":13714.566,"text":"自然保留區8."},{"start":13714.566,"end":13715.387,"text":"地質公園9."},{"start":13715.387,"end":13717.908,"text":"中央市地質海洋庇護區10."},{"start":13717.908,"end":13728.776,"text":"依其他法律規定化設置保護區中央主管機關的認定海洋保護區以外其他有效保育措施之區域其認定標準由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":13730.477,"end":13757.204,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第7條海洋保護區之類型包括下列地區一、野生動物保護區二、野生動物重要棲息環境三、國家公園四、國家風景特定區海域資源保護區五、水產凍植物繁殖保育區六、水下文化資產保護區七、自然保留區八、地質公園九、中央市地質海洋庇護區十一、其他經目的事業主管機關指定以保育目的劃設之區域"},{"start":13759.983,"end":13776.617,"text":"行政院提案第6條中央主管機關應會上有關機關訂定整體海洋保護區管理政策方針報請行政院核定後實施即便跟時一同前項整體海洋保護區管理政策方針內容應包括下列事項一、政策目標二、海洋保護區之分級三、海洋保護區"},{"start":13777.398,"end":13801.924,"text":"之規劃及管理、四、海洋保護區之監測、五、海洋保護區之檢討及成效評估、六、其他與海洋保護區管理有關之事項。第一項整體海洋保護區管理政策方針實施後中央主管機關應能運營至少檢討一次。以其他法律規定發射至海洋保護區及保護區名稱內容發射程序辦理機關及管理事項從其規定納入整體海洋保護區管理政策方針之一部。"},{"start":13802.644,"end":13824.544,"text":"整體海洋保護區管理政策方針涉及相關機關執行有異議時得由中央主管機關協調協調不成者報請行政院決定之。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第8條中央主管機關與國家海洋保育綱領因會商有關機關訂定國家整體海洋保護區管理計劃報請行政院核定後實施其計劃內容應包括下列事項一計劃範圍二計劃目標三海洋保護區分類及分級"},{"start":13828.247,"end":13833.729,"text":"4.整體海域定期性及因應海洋保育突發事件之臨時性調查項目與方式5."},{"start":13833.729,"end":13836.67,"text":"海洋保護區之規劃及管理措施6."},{"start":13836.67,"end":13839.692,"text":"海洋生態保護域整體規劃措施7."},{"start":13839.692,"end":13841.432,"text":"海洋保護區之管理監測8."},{"start":13841.432,"end":13844.033,"text":"海洋保護區之檢討及成效評估9."},{"start":13844.033,"end":13851.316,"text":"其他與海洋保護區管理有關事項前項整體海洋保護區管理計劃因每5年通辦檢討整體海域並於計劃規劃及檢討階段提供必要資訊後召開公聽會納入相關利害關係人"},{"start":13856.958,"end":13885.274,"text":"專家學者公民團體之意見主管機關應具體回覆涉及多數不同利益之人或多數不同行政機關權限者應經公開及聽證程序整體海洋保護區管理計劃涉及相關機關執行有意義時得由主管機關協調協調不成由主管機關報請上級機關決定之本條第一項是國家整體海洋保護區管理計劃之具體審議及檢討程序第二項是公民參與及聽證辦理等相關辦法由中央主管機關訂定報請行政院核定後實施"},{"start":13886.214,"end":13907.255,"text":"行政院提案第7條中央主管機關得救海洋生態系統有特別保護必要且未經其他主管機關劃設為海洋保護區者劃定為海洋庇護區中央主管機關會辦理前項業務應涉審議會由專家學者、民間團體及有關機關代表組成其中專家學者及民間團體代表人數不得少於委員總人數二分之一"},{"start":13907.816,"end":13936.826,"text":"第1項海洋庇護區之劃點基準變更廢止程序與前項審議會之設置組成運作及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第9條具有下列情形之一者主管機關應用最佳可得科學資訊原則及預警原則劃設海洋庇護區一海洋生態系統有特別保護必要二具碳匯功能之海洋或沿岸生態系統三具國家或地方上獨特性或稀少性自然資源之海域四對物種之生命階段"},{"start":13937.746,"end":13963.099,"text":"據特殊重要性之海域5對遭遇威脅評為或衰退之物種據重要性之海域6物種或棲地具益受損性脆弱性敏感性或復原緩慢之海域主管機關應定期普查或接受個人團體提報符合前項之海域或包含陸地組成部分之海域第一項海洋庇護區之化設基準變更廢止與其程序及前項其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":13965.273,"end":13984.718,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第10條中央主管及關於設立海洋庇護區審議委員會應考量生態系統途徑及海洋永續發展劃定海洋庇護區及擬定海洋庇護區管理計劃等相關事項海洋庇護區規劃階段臨近開發行為如有侵害海洋生態系統之餘中央主管及關應命該行為暫緩執行"},{"start":13986.098,"end":14013.854,"text":"前項委員會之委員為無記職其設置辦法由中央主管機關定定之其中專家、學者、民間保密團體及原住民等不具官方身份之代表不得少於委員總人數三分之二第一項委員之組成選任海洋庇護區之劃定及管理計劃之審議程序公明陳述意見回覆及聽證程序等相關辦法由中央主管機關定定之行政院提案第8條中央主管機關劃定海洋庇護區後"},{"start":14015.175,"end":14034.348,"text":"應會上有關機關擬定海洋庇護局保育計劃並公開展覽30日及舉行公聽會,其變更或廢止10億銅。前項公開展覽與公聽會之日及地點應登載於政府公報新聞紙、網際網路或以其他適當方法廣泛周知。人民法人或團體得於公開展覽期間內以書面在名姓名戶名稱及地址"},{"start":14034.688,"end":14058.546,"text":"向中央主管機關提出意見。 中央主管機關因應公告實施海洋庇護區保育計劃後將計劃登載於政府公報新聞紙網際網路或以其他適當方式廣泛周知。 定下海洋庇護區保育計劃之擬定涉及原住民族土地及海域者。 中央主管機關因應原住民族基本法之規定辦理。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第11條。 主管機關劃定海洋庇護區擬定海洋"},{"start":14059.11,"end":14063.774,"text":"秘護區管理計劃應召開海洋秘護區審議會並公開展覽30日及舉行聽證會。海洋秘護區之變更或廢止一同,傾向公開展覽及聽證會之日期及地點。"},{"start":14071.485,"end":14093.641,"text":"登載於政府公報新聞紙及網信網路或以其他適當方法廣泛周知。 任何人民或團體得於公開展覽期間的已書面在您姓名或名稱及地址上主管機關提出意見。 主管機關應具體回覆。 海洋庇護區域之劃定變更或廢止由地方主管機關委職者應報請中央主管機關核定後公告實施。 由中央主管機關委職者與核定後公告實施。"},{"start":14094.542,"end":14106.83,"text":"第1項海洋庇護局管理計劃之擬定涉及限制原住民族或部部落傳統利用者應於計劃規劃階段邀請相關原住民族或部落代表參與擬定會同原住民族主管機關公告之"},{"start":14108.188,"end":14133.993,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20任提案第12條海洋庇護區管理計劃應與海洋庇護區公告前制定完成其計劃內容亦包括下列事項一計劃範圍二計劃目標三海域現況調查四分區規劃及保護與措施五海洋庇護區之監測六海洋庇護區之檢討及成效評估其他與海洋庇護區管理有關之事項前項海洋庇護區管理計劃應每年至少檢討一次並作必要之變更"},{"start":14134.853,"end":14155.852,"text":"行政院提案第9條任何人及海陸域交通工具禁止進入海洋庇護區之核心區但有下列情形之意者不在此限一、國家安全或軍事目的二、海域巡防、犯罪查緝、漁業巡護、污染防治、海浪救助、航路標示設置管理、海洋保育、水下文化資產之保存或管理等公務目的"},{"start":14156.833,"end":14184.711,"text":"3傳播連續不停迅速通過且未從事航行以外之活動4經中央主管機關同意之科學研究監測或調查等活動前項第4款申請同意之程序應檢附文件審議作業廢紙同意及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會上有關機關定之委員楊秋英等20人提案第13條海洋庇護區之核心區禁止進入並從事活動但有下列前行之意者不在此限一國防安全及軍事目的二海域巡防犯罪查緝漁業巡獲"},{"start":14186.312,"end":14200.179,"text":"循庫、污染防治、海難救助、航路標示設置管理、海洋保育、外來種輸出、水下文化資產之保存及管理等公務目的。 3、外國傳播。 1、中華民國領海及臨界區法第7條規定無害經通過我國領海。"},{"start":14201.4,"end":14218.116,"text":"四、經中央主管機關同意之科學研究監測調查等活動。行政院提案第10條海洋庇護區之緩衝區內非經中央主管機關許可禁止從事下列行為但符合前條第一項但書第一款或第二款情形者不在此限因水產養殖二挖採捕海洋生物"},{"start":14219.277,"end":14234.687,"text":"3、開挖、浚深、航道或施作海洋工程4、鋪設電纜管道設施或結構5、從事探礦或採礦從事前項第一款或第二款行為符合中央主管機關公告之以定種類、數量、方式、範圍或期間等條件者免申請許可。"},{"start":14235.487,"end":14258.105,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第14條海洋庇護機制緩衝區內禁止從事下列行為一、水產養殖二、盈利性採捕海洋生物三、破壞性漁撈四、開挖軍生航道或試作海洋工程五、鋪設電纜管道設施或結構六、從事探礦或採礦七、能量或物質排放八、其他經中央主管機關公告禁止行為"},{"start":14258.966,"end":14273.896,"text":"請向第1款及第2款所列禁止行為得以最佳可得科學資訊考量生態系統途徑、累積效應並出具生態補償及有篩開發生態資料經主管機關會同於業主管機關許可者不在此限同向第4款至第8款所列禁止行為"},{"start":14276.398,"end":14296.728,"text":"經中央主管機關會同目的事業主管機關許可者不在此限,前向之許可經許可者應主動提供相關監測資料,主管機關應定期監測海域開放利用之情形並公開相關資訊,如造成海域生態之具體危害或可預見有違、危害之發生必要時,主管機關應強制禁止該許可行為,獲得廢止該許可。"},{"start":14299.389,"end":14316.429,"text":"第1項之水產養殖、營利性採捕海洋生物之處分,得由中央主管機關會同漁業主管機關公告,一定種類、數量、方式、範圍或期間等條件待之。第1項所稱之破壞性漁撈項目及類型,由中央主管機關會同漁業主管機關公告之。"},{"start":14317.23,"end":14333.959,"text":"行政院提案第11條海洋庇護區域之永續利用區域內非經中央主管機關許可禁止從事下列行為但符合第9條第一項但書第一款或第二款情形者不在此限一、開挖浚深航道或試作海洋工程二、鋪設電纜管道設施或結構三、從事探礦或採礦"},{"start":14338.061,"end":14365.14,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第15條海洋庇護區之永續發展區內原則禁止從事下列行為一、破壞性魚撈二、開挖浚深航道或試作海洋工程三、鋪設電纜管道設施或結構四、從事探礦或採礦五、其他經中央主管機關公告禁止行為前項第二款至第五款所列禁止行為經中央主管機關會同陸地事業主管機關許可者不在此限前項之許可主管機關應定其監測海域開放利用之情形"},{"start":14365.72,"end":14379.957,"text":"如造成海域生態處具體危害或可預見有危害之發生必要時主管機關應強制禁止該許可行為或得廢止該許可。 第一項所稱之破壞性漁撈項目及類型的中央主管機關會同漁業主管機關公告之。 行政院提案第12條"},{"start":14381.258,"end":14399.304,"text":"前2條申請許可之條件作業程序廢止許可及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員楊瓊英等20人提案第16條主管機關應考量國際一般性建議標準海洋使用累積效應及生態系統途徑使海洋庇護區生態系統維持最高持續生產"},{"start":14401.065,"end":14414.578,"text":"產量之水準、訂定前條、所定之許可條件、作業程序、擬定相關監測等配套措施及其他應遵行事項之辦法及收費標準。海洋庇護區內經中央主管機關許可的例外開發行為,開發商應擬定生態補償計劃並進行環境社會文化影響評估,經主管機關核可後時的進行。"},{"start":14422.25,"end":14450.745,"text":"第3章章明行政院提案章明海洋生物保育委員一、楊瓊玲等20人提案第3章章明海洋生物保育與賦育行政院提案第13條為保育海洋生物中央主管機關因會商其他目的事業主管機關公告下列事項因海洋遊棄或休閒活動之限制禁止或其他應遵行事項而船舶海上航行活動或作業之限制禁止或其他應遵行事項"},{"start":14451.806,"end":14459.414,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度"},{"start":14469.345,"end":14494.699,"text":"為保育海洋生物主管機關與匯商其他目的事業主管機關公告下列事項一、海洋油氣或修行活動之限制禁止或應遵行事項二、傳播海上航行活動作業之限制禁止或應遵行事項三、與海洋使用財補器具方法區域及時間之限制禁止或應遵行事項四、生物放棉之限制禁止或應遵行事項五、其他人文活動之限制禁止或應遵行事項"},{"start":14495.399,"end":14507.096,"text":"主管機關依竊將規定公告且應進行預告程序但有急迫情勢非立即公告海洋生物保育事項將發生難以回復之損害者不在此限預告期間內主管機關得依職權或依申請給予利害關係人或團體陳述意見之機會"},{"start":14511.121,"end":14525.005,"text":"主管機關應具體回覆涉及多數不同利益之人或多數不同行政機關權限者應經公開及聽證程序。此下,事先是主管機關與其海洋資源區域為第一項規定之公告者應報請中央主管機關和聽後為之。"},{"start":14526.886,"end":14548.929,"text":"行政院提案第14條為執行海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護區保育計劃主管機關或受託機關購法人團體的派員出示證明文件進入公司有土地處所或海域進行調查及實施保育措施其涉及軍事機密者應會同該管軍事機關為之前上請行公司有土地處所或海域之所有人使用人和管理人不得規避妨礙或拒絕"},{"start":14550.61,"end":14569.988,"text":"進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施,預設有違章之土地或實施各項保育措施時,主管機關應事先通知公司有土地、處所或海域之所有人、使用人或管理人,通知未能送達時得以公告方式為之。調查機關構法人、團體或保育人員對於受檢之工商、軍事秘密應與保密。"},{"start":14570.929,"end":14586.949,"text":"為進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施之公、私有、土地、處所或海域之所有人、使用人遭受特別犧牲之損失者應予補償。進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施之方式,通知補償之條件、基準及其他相關事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":14589.093,"end":14604.875,"text":"委員羊、蚯蚓等20人提案第18條,為執行海洋生物資源調查、海洋庇護區保育計劃或因應海洋保育有關之緊急情況,主管機關或受託機關團體得派員出示證明文件,進入公司由土地處所或海域進行調查及實施保育措施。"},{"start":14605.996,"end":14635.434,"text":"公司有土地所有人使用人或管理人或海域之使用人與管理人除涉及軍事機密者應會同該管軍事機關為之外不得規避拒絕或妨礙進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施預設有違章物質土地或實施各項保育措施時主管機關應事先通知公司有土地所有人使用人或管理人通知無法送達時得以公告方式為之調查機關或保育人員對於受檢至工傷軍事秘密應以保密為進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施"},{"start":14635.914,"end":14651.92,"text":"至公司有土地所有人使用員或海域之使用人遭受特別犧牲受有損失者應予補償。補償金額依協議為之,協議不成報請上級主管機關和定之。進行第一項調查或實施各項保育措施辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":14653.32,"end":14681.664,"text":"行政院提案第15條主管機關得指派海洋保育觀察員在傳播海洋設施、海域工程或其周圍從事觀察、監測及蒐集資料等任務必要時得請求海岸巡防機關或警察機關協助。前項情形傳播海洋設施或海域工程之所有人使用員或管理人不得規避、妨礙或拒絕。海洋保育觀察員執行觀察、監測及蒐集資料等任務時得由傳播海洋設施或海域工程之所有人使用員或管理人提供援反交通工具。"},{"start":14682.344,"end":14699.978,"text":"第1項海洋保育觀察員之資格取得訓練管理廢止資格及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員楊瓊英等20年提案第19條。主管機關一設立海洋保育警察負責海洋保育執法業務並得設立海洋保育巡查員協助辦理監測調查及其他海洋保育相關業務。"},{"start":14700.979,"end":14717.721,"text":"主管機關得指派具一定資格的海洋保育觀察員在傳播海洋設施、海域工程或其周圍從事觀察、監測及蒐集資料等任務必要時得請求海岸巡防機關或警察機關協助。前日向傳播海洋設施或海域工程之所有人、使用員或管理人"},{"start":14718.061,"end":14735.151,"text":"不得規避、拒絕或妨礙海洋保育觀察員執行觀察、監測及收集資料時得由傳播海洋設施或海域工程之所有人、使用人或管理人提供往返交通。第一項海洋保育巡查員及第二項海洋保育觀察員之資格取得與管理辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":14736.352,"end":14754.778,"text":"行政院提案第16條,執行人員、民眾、法人或團體主動參與或協助主管機關取締、舉發本法違法事件者,主管機關得予獎勵。主管機關對於前項主動參與或協助主管機關取締、舉發之人、身份與英語保密、第一項獎勵之對象、基準、範圍及其他相關事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":14755.518,"end":14769.671,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第20條,執法人員、人民或團體主動參與或協助主管機關取締舉發或續名事實或檢據證據資料檢舉本法違法事件者,主管機關得予獎勵,前項獎勵辦法由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":14770.572,"end":14786.66,"text":"行政院提案第17條主管機關應培養具備海洋保育及生物多樣性專業知識人才並推廣海洋保育及生物多樣性教育課程以提升民眾對於海洋生物多樣性之認識委員楊瓊英等20人提案第21條內容同行政院提案第17條"},{"start":14788.121,"end":14797.172,"text":"行政院提案第18條,主管機關為促進海洋保育、海洋生物多樣性保護及永續利用,得自行或透過國際組織學術研究機構進行國際合作,並對人民或民間團體參與國際交流活動給予獎勵或補助。"},{"start":14803.78,"end":14816.477,"text":"委員楊瓊玉等20人提案第22條主管機關會促進海洋保育海洋生物多樣性保護和永續利用得透過他國國際官方或民間組織學術研究機構進行國際合作並對人民或民間團體參與國際交流活動給予獎勵或補助"},{"start":14819.921,"end":14834.967,"text":"行政院提案第19條為執行海洋生物復育主管機關或中央目的事業主管機關得依海洋生物復育措施辦理原則自行或委託其他機關、構法人或團體辦理下列復育措施因人工復育設施之投放而海洋動物之培育或野放"},{"start":14835.527,"end":14854.265,"text":"3、海洋植物之災指4、其他復育之必要措施。 前項有外之機關構自然人、法人或團體自行辦理復育措施前1、前項海洋生物復育措施辦理原則提出復育計劃必報經主管機關同意後使得為之。 第1項海洋生物復育措施辦理原則由中央主管機關會商中央命題事業主管機關定之。"},{"start":14855.706,"end":14872.322,"text":"委員楊秋英等20人提案第23條,為執行海洋生物賦育各級主管、機關分地事業主管、機關得益居國家海洋保育綱領提出下列賦育計劃,並致意專家學者及民間團體後經中央主管機關同意後實施,一人工賦育設施之投放,二海洋動用之培育或野放。"},{"start":14873.183,"end":14881.854,"text":"3海洋植物之災指4其他復育之必要措施前向海洋生物復育措施各級主管機關得委託其他機關個人或民間團體辦理並提供生態復育監測計畫監測復育情況並定期將辦理情形報請中央主管機關備查"},{"start":14888.283,"end":14908.539,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第24條人民其他機關購法人或團體自行辦理復育措施前應依據前條海洋生物復育措施辦理原則提出復育計畫報經主管機關同意後實得為之。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第25條主管機關應建立並定期更新整體海域生態資源利用"},{"start":14909.139,"end":14930.821,"text":"及物理環境之即時調查資料庫並以適當方式及指定網站主動公開除法律利用規定者依其規定有關第13條至第15條之許可行為及第23條生態賦予措施及庇護區外之資源及海域利用相關管制監測亦為前項應公開之資訊如涉及其他目的事業主管機關之權則應會上之"},{"start":14932.282,"end":14949.168,"text":"一本法舉行公聽會及聽證會等相關會議資訊及通知及前兩項相關公開資訊揭露方式內容及指定網站等相關事項由中央主管機關訂定之。第四章行政院提案張明為罰則委員楊瓊英等20人提案張明同行政院提案"},{"start":14950.748,"end":14970.74,"text":"委員楊瓊雲等20人提案第26條違反第13條第14條與海洋庇護區之禁止行為因人有害於生態系統之餘者處二年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科薪台幣30萬元以上150萬元以下罰金但違反13條之情形者已經相當之注意人無法避免者得減輕或免罰之"},{"start":14971.821,"end":14998.971,"text":"行政院提案第20條違反第9條第一項規定進入海洋庇護區域之核心區者處行為人海陸與交通工具駕駛人或船長新台幣10萬元以上50萬元以下罰還委員楊瓊英等20人提案第27條違反第13條規定處新台幣30萬元以上150萬元以下罰還經限期改善而未改善者得按日連續處罰之但已經相當之注意人無法避免者得減輕或免罰之"},{"start":15000.231,"end":15028.674,"text":"行政院提案第21條違反第10條第1項規定於海洋庇護區之緩沖區內未經許可從事該項所定禁止行為者處心台幣6萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第28條違反第14條至第15條之規定於海洋庇護區之緩沖區及永續發展區未經許可從事各款所定禁止行為者處心台幣25萬元以上120萬元以下罰還。進行其改善而未改善者得按日連續處罰之。"},{"start":15030.175,"end":15046.889,"text":"行政院提案第22條有下列情形之一者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰還一違反第11條規定與海洋庇護區之永續利用區內未經許可從事該條所定禁止行為二違反第13條第一項公告事項"},{"start":15048.03,"end":15068.474,"text":"行政院提案第23條有下列情形之一者處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還因違反第14條第二項規定無正當理由規避妨礙或拒絕海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護區保育計劃實施二違反第15條第二項規定無正當理由規避妨礙或拒絕海洋保育觀察員執行觀察監測或蒐集資料"},{"start":15071.235,"end":15083.048,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第29條有下列情形之一處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰款經限其改善而未改善者得按日連續處罰之因違反第28條第二項規定規避拒絕或妨害"},{"start":15086.192,"end":15106.517,"text":"海洋生物資源調查或海洋庇護具保育計劃實施者而違反第19條第一項及第二項規定規避拒絕或妨礙海洋保育巡查員或觀察員執行觀察監測及蒐集資料者。 行政院提案第24條違反第19條第二項規定為金主管機關同意自行辦理賦予措施者處新台幣1萬元以上5萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":15108.337,"end":15122.925,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第30條違反第24條規定自行辦理賦予措施未報競主管機關同意者處薪台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰款請限期改善而未改善者得案日連續處罰之。行政院提案第25條"},{"start":15124.185,"end":15138.247,"text":"違反第9條、第1項、第10條、第1項、第11條規定或第13條、第1項公告事項者主管機關應令其接受2小時以上、12小時以下之海洋保育講習課程。據不接受前項海洋保育講習課程或時數不足者"},{"start":15139.028,"end":15158.36,"text":"新台幣3千元以上、1萬5千元以下罰款。 請通知令其限期接受講習或補足時數人不接受或未補足時數者,得按次處罰至其接受講習或補足時數為止。 定向海洋保育講習課程之內容實施之對象方式及其他相關事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":15159.801,"end":15185.869,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第32條違反第13條至第15條海洋庇護局禁止規定除以本法規定處罰外兵應接受6小時以上24小時以下之海洋保育獎習課程拒不接受前下海洋保育獎習課程或時數不足者處心臺幣3000元以上15000元以下罰還請通知人不到場者得按次處罰至其到場為止海洋保育獎習課程之適行辦法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":15187.546,"end":15204.845,"text":"行政院提案第26條違反本法規定經應第20條至第22條規定處罰者其損害部分應回復原狀不能回復原狀或回復顯有重大困難者應賠償其損害為調查回復原狀所支出之必要費用由賠償業務人負擔"},{"start":15206.747,"end":15223.116,"text":"委員長瓊玉等20人提案第31條違反本法規定金融第26條至第28條規定受處罰者其損害部分應回復原狀不能回復原狀或回復嫌有重大困難者應賠償其損害為調查回復原狀所支出之必要費而為賠償義務人負擔"},{"start":15225.417,"end":15247.389,"text":"第5章行政院提案章銘為負責委員楊瓊英等20年提案章銘同行政院提案行政院提案第27條行為人違反本法或依本法授權訂定之法規命而主管機關疏預執行時受害人名或公益團體得續名疏預執行之具體內容亦書面告知主管機關主管機關亦書面告知送達之日起60日內"},{"start":15248.55,"end":15271.65,"text":"人為依法執行者．受害人民或公益團體．得以該主管機關為被告．對其待遇執行職務之行為．直接向高等行政法院提起訴訟．請求判令其執行。高等行政法院為前項判決時．得依職權判命被告機關支付適當律師費用．鑑定費用或其他訴訟費用與對維護海洋保育具有具體貢獻之原告。"},{"start":15272.831,"end":15298.01,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第33條各級主管機關待遇執行本法之行政義務或行為人違反本法或依本法授權訂定之相關命令而主管機關疏預執行時受害人民或公益團體得續名疏預執行之具體內容以書面告知各級主管機關主管機關予書面告知送達之日起60日內人為依法執行者受害人民或公益團體得以該主管機關為被告"},{"start":15300.531,"end":15328.932,"text":"對其待遇執行職務之行為．直接向行政法院提起訴訟。請求判令其執行。行政法院為前項判決時得益職權判命被告機關支付適當律師費用、監禁費用或其他訴訟費用與對維護海洋保育具有具體貢獻之原告。第一項之書面告之格是由中央主管機關定之。委員楊瓊英等20人提案第34條。本法罰還部分收入納入中央主管機關之海洋發展基金管理運用。"},{"start":15330.788,"end":15351.373,"text":"行政院提案第28條中央主管機關依第7條規定劃定海洋庇護區勤以於該海域合法取得目的事業主管機關同意鋪設電纜管道設施結構從事探礦或採礦或其他經許可或核准之行為者不受第9條至第11條規定之限制得繼續從事許可或核准行為至有效期限屆滿為止"},{"start":15352.933,"end":15361.181,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人提案第36條本法施行前於海洋庇護區合法取得目的事業主管機關同意鋪設電纜管道設施結構或從事探礦或採礦者不受第13條至第14條規定之限制得繼續從事和轉行為至有效期限屆滿為止"},{"start":15370.129,"end":15386.17,"text":"但其繼續從事核准行為可預見造成海洋生態具體危害或持續造成具體危害之擴大者中央疾管機關因廢止該許可並得給予合理之補償中央主管機關認為有必要時應採行改善措施以維護海洋生態系統之健全"},{"start":15389.645,"end":15407.783,"text":"行政院提案第29條本法施行細則由中央主管機關定之委員楊瓊英等20人提案第35條內容同行政院提案第29條行政院提案第30條本法施行日期由行政院定之委員楊瓊英等20人提案第37條本法自公佈日施行"},{"start":15410.74,"end":15429.267,"text":"修正動議委員徐欣盈等3人所提修正動議第27條第一項第二項同行政院提案增訂第三項第一項之書面告知格式由中央主管機關會商有關機關公告之宣讀完畢"},{"start":15435.192,"end":15459.038,"text":"好謝謝我們先讀完畢本次的法案審查因有委員提案尚未互為為有利於委員的委員會充分的審查本次的會議所排定的海洋保育法草案令折起繼續審查本次的會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15719","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15719","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbd26331c83256afb86425655b8120616f3be8d109af184be43c84e93c63511f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-13","start_time":"2024-03-13T08:30:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:22:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13920,"委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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MANGA"},{"start":538.26,"end":539.647,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":661.011,"end":661.661,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1122.39,"end":1123.146,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1264.768,"end":1266.661,"text":"主席"},{"start":1374.133,"end":1377.598,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1403.865,"end":1403.965,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1854.841,"end":1857.366,"text":"好我們繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1868.035,"end":1890.245,"text":"好本日議程排定經濟部的業務報告那因為今天來列席的經濟部的官員蠻多的所以我們先介紹一下列席的官員首先當然還是跟大家介紹經濟部長王美花王部長祖密楊志清楊祖密綜合規劃司司長莊明池"},{"start":1892.34,"end":1913.924,"text":"產業技術司司長邱求慧投資促進司司長張明斌投資審議司司長楊淑玲國營事業管理司司長胡文忠法治司司長羅翠玲秘書處處長魏世剛人事處處長陳素芝政風處長廖長興"},{"start":1923.154,"end":1929.536,"text":"會計處長黃宏文統計處長黃於玲資訊處長林聰仁接下來是產發署蘇文玲署長商業發展署產發署連錦章署長國際貿易署江文若署長能源署游政委署長"},{"start":1950.683,"end":1966.954,"text":"中小及新創企業署何進昌署長、學歷署賴建信署長、智慧財產局廖承威廖局長、產業園區管理局局長楊伯耕楊局長、標準檢驗局陳怡玲局長、"},{"start":1973.245,"end":1997.57,"text":"地質調查及礦業管理中心主任徐明宏徐主任經貿人員培訓所李明喜李所長工商輔導中心雲瑞龍主任接下來介紹的是臺電公司王耀廷總經理臺糖公司楊明洲董事長自來水公司李嘉榮董事長"},{"start":1998.806,"end":2007.207,"text":"中郵董事長李順清李董事長以上接下來我們就請經濟部王美花部長進行報告"},{"start":2022.033,"end":2047.602,"text":"主席、各位委員那經濟部的業務比較繁多我花一點點時間跟各位做一個整體的介紹那第一個在當前環境下面在去年全球壟在高通膨、高利率、中端的需求走弱那抑制了各國經濟成長的動能臺灣不免受到影響但是在分散市場、多元布局跟產業轉型多年"},{"start":2049.202,"end":2057.685,"text":"推動的這樣基礎下台灣的去年出口金額連續第三年超過4300億美元民間的消費突破11兆歷史的新高尤其有8.3的成長創下近30年來最大的征服那各項的成績都展現了台灣經濟的能量跟韌性那今年國際的大環境仍然在地緣政治衝突這樣的風險變數下那國際的主要機構也認為今年的經濟"},{"start":2079.151,"end":2083.275,"text":"在不穩定中逐步復甦隨著全球通膨壓力的減緩產業去擴充化告一個段落全球的貿易動能有轉加國際的大機構預測今年全球的貿易量"},{"start":2094.464,"end":2112.45,"text":"會有顯著的成長從去年的不到1%會升到3.3%那有利於我國以外需導向為主的經濟體系那此外臺灣受惠於人工智慧、車用電子等新型科技應用的擴展我國半導體自通訊產業具有競爭的優勢再加上奧運、歐洲盃等運動題材對紡織製血傳統產業也有幫助那所以主計總署預測今年出口會逐劇回升"},{"start":2124.963,"end":2131.445,"text":"民間消費者在基本工資調升、軍公教跟企業調薪的帶動下也可以穩健的成長預估臺灣今年的經濟成長率可以達到3.43%那在地緣衝突、美中博弈、極端氣候這樣諸多風險下讓全球的經濟復甦仍然充滿的不確定性所以本部的市政會在韌性、安全的理念下持續建構強韌的水電網路"},{"start":2153.353,"end":2183.353,"text":"．"},{"start":2183.493,"end":2188.494,"text":"超過6成的現金製程產能由臺灣提供在各國相繼提出巨額的獎勵來吸引半導體投資的時候那我們在去年修正了產創條例10-2針對投入前瞻創新研發的技術跟採購現金製程設備提供投資體檢那今年呢2月到5月開始受理申請鼓勵這個我國居國際供應鏈關鍵地位的業者來加碼投資"},{"start":2211.578,"end":2230.947,"text":"．臺灣．"},{"start":2231.047,"end":2235.851,"text":"先進封裝以及主要產能都留在臺灣另外為了壯大臺灣半導體生態系也會持續推動半導體設備材料的在地化除了吸引美國、歐盟、日本、國際領先的半導體設備材料在臺灣投資超過470億美金新增採購超過200億以外今天也會輔導臺灣的業者投入奈米級製成的設備跟先進封裝材料"},{"start":2260.473,"end":2262.605,"text":"來提升在地化的一個供應鏈"},{"start":2264.657,"end":2280.421,"text":"AI將是帶動新一波產業投資跟突破數位轉型的關鍵台灣具有完整的AI伺服器供應鏈以及晶片研發的生態系加上完善的智慧產權保護已經成功爭取到全球AI晶片的兩大龍頭來台灣設立物流的運籌中心為台灣佈局AI打下基礎今年本部將結合精創台灣方案"},{"start":2290.384,"end":2317.159,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":2317.299,"end":2317.439,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":2343.039,"end":2343.079,"text":"主席"},{"start":2362.401,"end":2365.785,"text":"那在輔導傳產升級的部分那為了提供產業創新投資的誘因今年也將會來修訂產創條例10至1條除了延長原定這個到期適用的期限外也會研議來擴大投資低減的範圍範疇"},{"start":2381.563,"end":2389.469,"text":"到AI的應用跟淨零排放等等來應對全球產業數位發展跟減碳的趨勢那對於部分仍然面臨景氣影響的傳產跟中小企業本部也會持續這個疫後特別預算朝這個輔導業者地攤化、智慧化的轉型那去年已經輔導了超過4000家那今年也會持續讓這個專家團隊到場來服務"},{"start":2409.569,"end":2416.332,"text":"．配專案貸款、展延、還款期限等等融資以及用電優惠等措施讓業者可以穩健的經營。另外,受到ECFA部分產品取消關稅優惠的影響的產業本部也規劃了要透過異業聯盟加強海外脫銷例如我們整合石化機械紡織"},{"start":2431.678,"end":2433.72,"text":"那組團前往具潛力的而且個別廠商不易開拓的印度東協非洲等新興市場並且協助業者開發高質化差異化的產品來提升產品的國際競爭力"},{"start":2446.656,"end":2466.02,"text":"那好的員工可以讓企業提升競爭力並且創造獲利尤其中小企業吸納了臺灣八成的就業所以為了優化中小企業加薪的誘因我們提出中小企業發展條例36-2的修正案除了將原定要入日的時間再延長10年並且刪除了啟動的門檻使租稅的優惠常態化來適用同時也提高"},{"start":2474.641,"end":2481.485,"text":"新資抵減率到150那適用的新資範圍也會擴到6.2萬以這個這樣的一個門檻那在穩定基礎設施的部分那電力的穩定是攸關民生跟產業發展我們這個電力的供應除了投入新的再生能源外也擬妥中長期穩定供電的規劃那今年預計會新增443萬千瓦天然氣機組"},{"start":2503.016,"end":2509.3,"text":"那扣除除役的315萬幾組呢那供電的淨增加約120萬千瓦可以維持穩定供電而為了強化電網韌性呢今年也會投入720億來做電網韌性的相關工作那電價的調整部分呢那全世界都因為惡霧戰爭帶來國際性燃料成本的暴漲那臺灣透過臺電吸收了絕大多數的虧損"},{"start":2530.593,"end":2539.962,"text":"承擔了減緩通膨的任務,但是也因為未足而反映在電價調漲上造成台電的財務壓力。目前電價調漲方案尚未定案,未來會在審議會充分來討論。另外,核電研議的問題除了首先考慮核電的安全外,還涉及到相關法規的修改,必須兼顧專業性跟周延性。"},{"start":2556.396,"end":2572.301,"text":"後續要有河安會的安全審查另外河二用過的河南料棒目前沒有辦法取出干儲的設施也還沒有興建必須要等待地方政府同意河廢料的處理也需要取得社會的共識在水的部分臺灣風枯水期的差異在全球氣候變遷下確實也變成一個重要的議題本部將持續推動區域的備援工程"},{"start":2585.953,"end":2585.973,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2604.847,"end":2631.876,"text":"翡翠原水管工程陶竹背原管線都預計在今年6月通水而霧溪鳥嘴潭仁宮湖在去年10月已經完成6個湖區的工程那今年可以完成6月的時候完成蓄水可以提升大台北新竹以及彰化南投等的供水韌性離島地區在澎湖及北七海的海淡廠在年底完工後也可以提升"},{"start":2632.176,"end":2632.576,"text":"在國際的挑戰上面"},{"start":2658.94,"end":2682.73,"text":"去年的COVID-19最大的共識是增加再生能源而發展再生能源也是我國經營轉型跟實現能源自主的關鍵我們以太陽光電跟離岸風電為發展的主力在拖年的努力之下那太陽光電去年新增2.7個Gigawatt創歷史的新高那累至到今年1月底併網量已經達到12.5Gigawatt那目前掌握足額岸源透過"},{"start":2686.952,"end":2692.234,"text":"各部會跟地方政府的合作努力來達成114年20GW的設置目標離岸風電到今年1月底已經累計設計了288座的風力機裝置容量達到2.3GW是世界上少數離岸風電突破2GW的國家今年會努力達到3GW"},{"start":2709.44,"end":2716.244,"text":"那麼另外也會提前布局浮動式的風場的釋放計畫讓我們離岸風力邁向這個深水區來發展另外今年也會將氫能跟地熱列為能沾、潛在能源的發展重點那氫能的部分國營企業會帶頭在氫能發電、工業跟運輸方面"},{"start":2730.673,"end":2734.654,"text":"來推動示範計畫目前臺電跟興達正在進行這個5%混氫的發電驗證跟中原來合作開發去碳燃氫的發電技術中鋼巨型鋼化廉廠的運轉中油公司會在年底建制全臺首座的"},{"start":2748.584,"end":2751.948,"text":"可移動式加薪站在地熱開發部分目前6個案場已經裝置7.29個MW今年預計會增加5個MW那今年的2月底已經完成了地熱相關探勘的辦法草案預告會盡快完成相關的程序"},{"start":2768.874,"end":2774.635,"text":"除了增加綠能以外也要讓企業買得到綠電那考量多數的國內企業比較缺乏國際的性品所以我們規劃透過綠電的性保機制來幫助企業跟綠電的業者來簽署企業的購售電合約目前正與國家融資保證中心溝通細節預計在第一季可以正式對外公布辦法那中小企業也可以透過公有或國營事業土地標售案場的"},{"start":2798.66,"end":2815.503,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2816.852,"end":2830.878,"text":"這個在這個COVID-28也提出2030年的能源效率改善效率要有2%增加到4%那臺灣從105年就開始透過能源轉型節能以及製程改善三個方向努力"},{"start":2831.578,"end":2856.523,"text":"過去5年已經實現這個年平均4%的能源效率的改善那在美國的能源效率委員會的國際評比中臺灣也從105年的13名提升到111年的第8名在亞洲的表現僅次於日本那我們會在這樣的基礎上全面提升產業跟住宅能源效用的效率達到深度的節能"},{"start":2857.563,"end":2882.774,"text":"那在產業方面我們透過投資低減、能源補助導入Exco的金融機制以及提升專業節能輔導等等來幫助產業來節電那另外今年也會持續提供10億元來補助商業服務業的這個節能設備的更換那另外也擴大補助的項目增加一級能效的冰箱瓦斯爐等等相關的節能汰換"},{"start":2884.54,"end":2907.774,"text":"主宰部分去年加電汰換已經補助了170萬台冷氣冰箱促成節電11億度今年再延長一年並且擴大推出瓦斯爐、瓦斯熱水器的補助有效這個住宅的節約另外針對歐盟在去年開始實施的CMAN的過渡期本部也啟動辦理相關的"},{"start":2910.936,"end":2928.108,"text":"CBAN產品和碳含量的四天工作跟申報說明會做了非常多的諮詢、一對一的服務等等並且主動關懷企業我們也成立了北中南的區域申報的服務窗口就計業者來申報解決企業在CBAN申報過程中遇到的問題"},{"start":2932.972,"end":2939.897,"text":"那在投資臺灣的部分投資臺灣三大方案到今年2月呢累計投資已經接近2.18兆帶動15萬人的就業讓臺灣的產業公立更加的完整那今年會新增投資2300億元"},{"start":2950.044,"end":2955.366,"text":"創造1.9萬人的目標持續壯大我國高階伺服器AI產業以及電動車等相關的供應鏈另外我們也前方會拓展對外投資的經貿關係推動赴新南向國家的投資那我們已經連續第三年新南向的投資都有超過50億"},{"start":2972.373,"end":2997.243,"text":"甚至連續兩年都超過對中國大陸的投資那臺灣的晶圓大廠赴日投資也建立了半導體供應鏈的合作典範不僅吸引日本電子汽車相關大企業入股帶動臺日雙方企業的合作也使得日本最大的半導體設備商跟材料商加碼在臺灣投資分別成立營運中心跟先進半導體材料廠那增強這個在臺灣半導體先進材料的生產跟技術支援"},{"start":3003.456,"end":3007.518,"text":"臺美關係向來緊密,雙方已經建立了臺美經濟繁榮夥伴對話以及科技技術跟投資的合作等交流管道那去年透過EPPD的就經濟脅迫供應鏈跟投資能源轉型永續跟安全等重大議題深入的交流另外臺美21次貿易世界倡議也在去年6月"},{"start":3025.767,"end":3028.57,"text":"簽署首批協定,持續進行第二階段談判,深化臺美貿易合作。臺歐盟部分持續透過貿易跟投資對話以及產業對話交流平臺推動雙方進一步的經貿合作。"},{"start":3041.561,"end":3060.273,"text":"因應國際需求的恢復全球貿易動能的回溫為了協助我商升取海外MIT的商機並且分散出口市場除了鞏固美日歐並且持續深耕新南向市場以外也積極擴大到中東、中南美跟非洲等新興市場今年預計會投入50億元來舉辦相關的脫銷團商機日等超過200項的脫銷活動"},{"start":3069.378,"end":3071.863,"text":"那過去幾年臺灣經歷前所未有的世紀疫情、百年大旱、二屋戰爭等危機政府以團隊合作突破挑戰"},{"start":3079.235,"end":3085.457,"text":"向全世界展現臺灣經濟的韌性那未來隨著產業競爭跟地緣競爭的加劇我們會遇到更多的挑戰但也會帶來新的商機本部會做好最佳的經濟掌舵手引導產業以AI驅動數位跟淨零雙轉型來深化全球多元布局吸引外資持續投資臺灣壯大臺灣"},{"start":3103.183,"end":3104.345,"text":"帶領臺灣暫穩國際公益內關鍵地位以上作簡單報告 敬請委員支持指教"},{"start":3115.207,"end":3137.91,"text":"謝謝王部長的報告我們現在要開始進行詢答委員質詢之前原力做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記首先請登記第一位林戴化委員有請部長王部長"},{"start":3144.38,"end":3165.231,"text":"好,本席針對再生人員的後續除了建制之後後續的維運來做討論極端氣候下建立國家綠能穩定供應的機制那在零排的能源建成主力綠電也成為關鍵能源在你的簡報當中也提到去年在COP28"},{"start":3166.211,"end":3166.431,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3183.578,"end":3201.785,"text":"阿贊真後續可能形成的石油供應若沒有綠能的規劃能源的供應勢必困難好我國再生能源的裝置能量去確實是有大幅的成長在111年10月底不管是在太陽能光電風力到水力地了"},{"start":3202.901,"end":3225.843,"text":"目前本席所知道的我們再生能源也達發電佔比的9%了好那臺灣確實擁有好的綠能的地理條件我們有最佳的風潮在這個臺灣海峽我們有在太平洋西岸這個黑潮流量的流速都很好以及我們在亞熱帶當中的日照充足以及在環太平洋的火環"},{"start":3226.884,"end":3232.766,"text":"我們台灣也在這個火丸內那所以地的豐富我國確實擁有各型綠能的最佳場域但好的地理條件也有對應的地理問題綠能發展與氣候條件的正相關注意我這邊提的是氣候條件"},{"start":3244.249,"end":3249.292,"text":"所以這跟我後續的主張會有關係直觀來看我國各型的綠能軍面對不同的問題我們說有在台灣有好的這個風場但是呢夏季多颱風風機大型化下我們狹狹的空域如何兼顧民航軍機飛安與能源安全太陽能光電雖然我們在亞熱帶但是地狹人酬如何合理利用的有限國土資源我們雖然在這個"},{"start":3273.687,"end":3279.328,"text":"這個火黃帶當中既然是地熱發達火黃帶當中那一定是火山一定是這個很發達的一個地段所以它一定是多地震、地質破碎也導致我地下熱的水源涵養就困難雖然我們有這個海洋流的一個這樣的地主這樣的優良條件但是有黑潮那它一定是有海溝的地形水下工程難度就會劇增了"},{"start":3303.453,"end":3327.482,"text":"好我電力發電的風險管理好縱觀過去經濟部只要管一家公司就好叫做台電那只要管這家台電呢他就可以掌握全國的電力而先前又是大電廠的架構火力、核能、水力等電廠均由台電現場人員即使掌握狀態甚至可以緊急備用料件來替代好"},{"start":3329.482,"end":3354.138,"text":"對業自由化之後我們民間的綠燃電廠的地位等同台電好那你覺得民間電廠為了講求最佳化他都是委託建設甚至委託營運您覺得部長他會像台電一樣有緊急的現場人員去掌握狀況會有緊急的備用料件來支援現場的這個所"},{"start":3355.899,"end":3358.72,"text":"因為地理或大氣環境所衍生的電力設備故障嗎?"},{"start":3369.419,"end":3394.738,"text":"離岸一起的故障還打3分之1但說到這一點我本席就要替臺電同仁報不平在臺電的再生能源柱一共才200人他管什麼再生能源而已所以地熱、風力發電、太陽能這個全部他都管就200位甚至本席了解連一個主任都要去爬電桿"},{"start":3396.019,"end":3414.646,"text":"你看人員多麼吃緊。好,這麼所以也要請部長這邊瞭解多大面積的風產有多少種的發電設備要養護光是我出海一趟搭船來回所需的時間造成養護量能的巨大限制一艘工作船出海啊只能養護一座風塔"},{"start":3416.647,"end":3419.71,"text":"民營風場是佔大多數,其修復工作量必然更大於台電的維護養護需求"},{"start":3436.088,"end":3438.35,"text":"本席認為綠能政策要科學化的建立"},{"start":3459.585,"end":3483.567,"text":"科學管理分散式的電業的必要性什麼叫做科學管理我針對幾項幾點第一個要求民營電廠具備具備護員修復的量能不能僅靠他其發電才有收入的邏輯這是現況政府因強化監理民間業者的設備妥善率連我們私人的汽車"},{"start":3484.768,"end":3506.177,"text":"私人的汽車我們交通部都要求我們都要驗車了更何況重大的人員設施政府請人事生事壞第二個綠能場域通過環評之後的環境生態不能放任業者自行管理經濟部應該主動的承擔建設後面的環境資料收集責任及系統化的管理"},{"start":3507.097,"end":3528.666,"text":"我們都會要求業者這些綠電的業者他們會通報定期通報半年一次通報環境部的檢疫環境影響資訊本期要求針對這些業者同步提報給經濟部你們才好去做後續的收集甚至系統化的分析跟管理"},{"start":3529.926,"end":3547.899,"text":"而且呢我這還不包括所以我在這邊請你們研議一定要一定比例的綠電場域是以免環評的有環評的他一定會送環境部免環評的是沒有的好那免環評的這個綠電場應該納入政府的環境衝擊的監控好針對這個生態是如此那針對氣候呢"},{"start":3554.42,"end":3574.276,"text":"我就舉經管會經管會自112年起去年還要求本國銀行每年6月底前辦理前一年度的氣候風險的相關財務揭露而綠電非常大比例是以農資阿我相信阿這個部長你比我更清楚與其說我們支持系統商阿不如是支持這個風電系統商的財務規劃我想這句話才是重點"},{"start":3581.261,"end":3585.003,"text":"所以他的財務規劃金管會都要求說你氣候風險的財務規劃要揭露那你本身你的經濟部你對於氣候相關的管理是不是也應該要比照金管會的要求呢我這個綠電也好太陽能也好我的五級三級的地震我五級七級的颱風"},{"start":3603.852,"end":3623.416,"text":"所在造成氣候所影響的這個風場你要有多少的量能、能力 我有多少的濾備、配料都要準備啊那你怎麼知道要準備多少配料 你怎麼知道多少能力當然靠的就是科學管理長期的追蹤啊 3年5年後的分析要求電廠民營電廠也要做這樣的準備啊 否則你的濾電到時候就變成廢鐵了"},{"start":3630.765,"end":3636.329,"text":"好就是後續這當中只能夠一直能夠保持你現在所跟大家報告的這樣的量能啊好綠能政策在科學化的建立當中反觀我再講一次人原屬直接是規劃管理綠能的產業並卻沒有針對綠能氣候風險有生態風險的管理氣候風險的管理在電業自由化後與國家電力穩定供應進行監控人原屬不能只有管發多少電"},{"start":3660.905,"end":3674.693,"text":"更重要的是穩定發電的供給與調控這個是本席的重點因為以前這個電力調控只要由台電來扮演管理者就好但是綠能發電的電業自由化之後能源署當然得承擔起綠能場域的微氣象資料屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊這句話很重要"},{"start":3686.28,"end":3700.95,"text":"為綠能場域的為氣候的資料是屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊只有持續的建立綠能場域的資料收集才能檢討修正我的綠能政策進行科學化的數據來支持國家綠能永續的發展"},{"start":3703.211,"end":3706.052,"text":"總結面對國際碳排的近鄰趨勢產業為製造出口導向的台灣綠能是不可不為的方向這也是要替我們民進黨執政黨來講為什麼強力的發展這個綠能發電本身也生以為農但是我覺得我們還是要很審慎的對後續在這個穩定供電跟調控上"},{"start":3730.759,"end":3746.562,"text":"經濟部面臨新型態的綠能明顯為完善的針對分散式電業的科學管理的機制我有三項的要求第一個請臺電於一個月內提供其經營綠電場域的再生能源養護、修復能力"},{"start":3748.963,"end":3754.248,"text":"材料量能及環境監管的資料規劃．並請經濟部．額外補助台電新增能力的所需經費．以作為規範民營電廠養父設備的依據．"},{"start":3765.279,"end":3767.1,"text":"第二,臺電做示範目前的電廠的營運狀況﹖請他們提出一個規劃案來﹖進而我經濟部能源署建立民營電廠防護及復原的規範﹖"},{"start":3780.928,"end":3789.291,"text":"以降低人為及氣候造成國家電力供應的危機也請經濟部能源署：我也請臺電建立各型綠能氣象風險與環境資訊監管的機制也以此依據你能源署建立起國中央級的綠能環境管理的機制以利要求民營電廠參照臺電的永續經營跟穩定供電部長你怎麼看呢"},{"start":3810.322,"end":3823.813,"text":"非常謝謝委員有系統的在呈現這幾個問題那委員這三個意見我們會按照委員的指示來辦理謝謝因為這個是目前能源署沒有去注意到的謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來我們請邱益穎委員請做詢答謝謝主席我是不是請夏部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":3845.086,"end":3851.274,"text":"部長早部長今天幾個問題跟您請教最近大概大家對於食安的問題又開始重視"},{"start":3856.728,"end":3878.268,"text":"經濟部大概主責這所謂的公司登記我們看到這一家蘇丹紅進口蘇丹紅辣椒粉的這一家公司的這個負責人叫做李彥廷先生他用人頭分別成立了10家在同一個地址的10家的人頭公司經濟部說現在要開始清查我不曉得這個進度是如何"},{"start":3880.59,"end":3896.008,"text":"經濟部如何對於像類似這樣的人頭公司登記在同一個地址但是他不曉得有沒有實際在運作或者是出了事情就趕快再換一個負責人換一個公司這件事情經濟部的處理態度是什麼"},{"start":3897.149,"end":3902.113,"text":"謝謝所以這個在院裡面已經成立跨部會的小組來討論這個事情那現在我們經濟部就衛福部這邊如果給我們資料比如說A公司那這個A公司給我們之後我們就會就這個A公司同一個地址"},{"start":3912.782,"end":3925.845,"text":"或者負責人有沒有相同或者是其他的公司有沒有相同等等只要有一個相同我們就會把資料撈出來回饋給衛福部有需要等衛福部給你們資料比如說你的電腦裡頭應該很容易去撈出登記在相同地址的這樣的一個公司尤其是食品業者這個要防範成立人頭公司我覺得你們應該是趕快先去把這一些"},{"start":3942.128,"end":3944.749,"text":"类似的人头公司的资料都把它捞出来了。"},{"start":3961.997,"end":3983.768,"text":"外府部或者是農業部我覺得類似相關的不管是食安或者是其實很多的這一些所謂的人頭公司啦我覺得防堵人頭公司不只在食安的這一塊我們要去進行防堵可能很多的這一些虛擬的公司人頭的公司這一些可能經濟部也要去我們都會做最大的努力來協助"},{"start":3984.648,"end":3992.879,"text":"講到食安的問題就不能不談台糖公司的這個所謂的瘦肉精怡雲部長921比1的檢驗報告出來"},{"start":3998.939,"end":4011.71,"text":"我真的不曉得他真的是台糖會使用西布特羅這個瘦肉精嗎?看起來我們的食安辦已經公布了結果就是這是一個單一事件但他沒有辦法排除檢驗污染的風險921比1的調查結果"},{"start":4016.786,"end":4045.884,"text":"我相信大概國人都看得非常的清楚但是在這個過程當中對於台糖公司所造成的影響這個是你們台糖公司自己計算的啦大概這個事件影響的損失程度大概是5128萬大概是你可以計算出來的有形的損失無形的損失是台糖公司長年建立的這個商域因為這樣的一件"},{"start":4047.458,"end":4055.268,"text":"突如其來或者是不知從哪裡污染到的這樣的一件豬肉對台糖公司所造成的商域影響"},{"start":4057.392,"end":4061.813,"text":"這個價格是無法計算的我要請問部長跟台糖公司你們要不要求償要不要採取法律行動對於台中市政府來求償部長謝謝那我想這個食安辦前一陣子前幾天也開了會那確認在我們這個相關的飼養屠宰過程應該是都沒有問題所以我想對台糖來說最需要的是"},{"start":4085.459,"end":4087.66,"text":"回復他的信譽回復國人對台糖對國產豬的一個信心我想這個是最重要的那而在這個報告裡面呢最後對於為什麼會有一個單一簡體的這個部分的這樣的情形呢"},{"start":4103.069,"end":4122.953,"text":"確實是沒有辦法排除但是也沒辦法肯認是怎麼一回事所以這是一個羅生門啊為什麼會只有這一包或者是只有那一塊肉有西部特羅其他的是完全沒有但是就台糖所有的飼養的過程裡頭包括你的原料飼料進口完全不含西部特羅這個是完全確認的但是這樣的一個事件對於台糖所造成的損失我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦"},{"start":4132.673,"end":4159.477,"text":"即使台糖是國營公司我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦你們的損失我覺得不止這個五千一百多萬欸那這個商域一旦被破壞了要重新回復名譽你要花多少的時間甚至你要花多少的心力、精神、金錢才有辦法所以我建議我是支持台糖公司提告、求償"},{"start":4161.226,"end":4167.753,"text":"那也讓任何的檢驗單位其實在對於這樣的事件的發布都應該要更審慎"},{"start":4170.046,"end":4193.445,"text":"董事長您同意我的看法嗎?謝謝委員對台堂的鼓勵啦因為根據食安辦的這個報告那我們的法律顧問目前也正在研擬相關的意見所以我們會根據法律顧問的這個法律意見書再來做一些研議不過我要跟委員報告就是今天的報紙也有報導台中市的食安辦"},{"start":4194.646,"end":4212.802,"text":"他們,台中市的13處他們的這個主管有提到他們也會包括這一次的檢驗方面有哪一些需要再精進的,我覺得台中市的...雙方都有意思要對這個單一事件來進行和解就是了啦,是不是這樣?我們會再嚴厲主席有意見,不要說和解啦,雙方要對這件事情來進行和談"},{"start":4225.786,"end":4232.253,"text":"這是我的質詢接下來我要請教部長您剛花了很長一段時間大概談到台灣的整個經濟的現況跟我們的不管是產業我們需要的電力的情況"},{"start":4245.067,"end":4265.497,"text":"這個RE100其實應該是現在的這些企業非常重視也非常在乎的事情嘛全球大概有350家的企業去響應了RE100台灣大概現在有31家那我要請教就是說到底RE100它要用到的一定是綠電台灣的綠電"},{"start":4268.12,"end":4297.077,"text":"到底夠不夠現在的31家不代表永遠只有這31家嘛你要踏入國際一定是還要持續使用一定要得到RE100的認證所以台灣的綠電到底夠不夠那這個部分我們其實每一季都滾動的檢討那滾動檢討的原因是在我們的供給面也都會增加那第二個需求面的這些廠商呢他也可能因為他的客戶的要求"},{"start":4297.637,"end":4306.559,"text":"或者他要可能時程上他有不同所以我們都會問他綠電的需求是怎麼樣的情形那也跟委員報告就是說他們對國際大廠給他們綠電的需求確實都有在增加部長我這邊拿到的資料我跟您確認一下就是說2023年我們的綠電供給量大概是265億度"},{"start":4323.304,"end":4347.739,"text":"高於當年的潛在需求量118億度所以我們看起來綠電的供給量是夠的但是你們實際的供轉量只有17億度其他的是不是大概都是拿去賣掉了那你們現在在去年推動了所謂的小額綠電交易這樣的一個平台從去年10月25號上架開始競標"},{"start":4350.521,"end":4358.924,"text":"我想要更進一步瞭解你們到底競標的成效是什麼?如果今天來不及回答的話是不是也請經濟部給本席資料?我跟委員說明那個17億度其實是指他原來賣給台電那後來跟台電分手了"},{"start":4368.228,"end":4368.248,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":4395.543,"end":4423.783,"text":"接下來我們請謝依峰委員請做詢談謝謝主席我想要請王部長請王部長委員好部長到底現在電價是要漲多少"},{"start":4425.01,"end":4428.214,"text":"是全面性還是只是工業大戶呢?"},{"start":4433.949,"end":4442.734,"text":"現在目前這個相關的工作小組正在相關的討論當中是執掌工業大戶然後像那個半導體業者還是應該這樣講就是說我們這幾天也讓大家知道對於台電的這個財務的虧損確實是蠻大的那所以我們第一個優先來爭取政府的補貼"},{"start":4456.101,"end":4471.561,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4471.561,"end":4471.601,"text":"12項實話的終止議"},{"start":4488.131,"end":4505.657,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4505.697,"end":4520.887,"text":"因為很多國外的買家跟他們要求就是你也知道就所謂的臺灣家他希望在臺灣以外的東南亞再設置新的生產的基地那對於"},{"start":4522.007,"end":4525.67,"text":"對於台灣的經濟當然我們知道說經濟部現在規劃的是我們朝向高職化的但是在這個銜接的過程當中其實我們還是有非常多條件上面的問題是不是"},{"start":4548.406,"end":4551.507,"text":"謝謝委員那確實有幾個不同的面向那包括比如說石化業好了那我們其實這個在這個去年開始就跟石化業非常密集來討論石化業確實怎麼樣升級轉型以及做國際的分散佈局那所以我們今年會特別石化業剛才我也提到連結這個機械甚至紡織一起來打新興市場那這個政府確實每個禮拜"},{"start":4575.652,"end":4575.672,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":4600.718,"end":4612.329,"text":"面對現在的國際情形台灣的強項那怎麼樣做更好的一個爭取戰其實都一定會要趕快加速特別是有幾個產業中國其實有一點這個over capacity他的產能過剩的問題其實在未來的兩三年會越來越明顯"},{"start":4620.416,"end":4645.306,"text":"但是其實對於這些中小企業或者是外銷為主的這些生產的廠家而言他們認為說就是說在這種我們電價還有這些相關的就是關稅的談判都沒有辦法有突破的情況下讓他們在台灣生產變成非常嚴峻的問題那這也會造成失業率的問題等等的"},{"start":4645.666,"end":4647.348,"text":"這個部分兩個面向一個就是說事實上台灣是有一個非常綿密的供應鏈所以在台灣的好處有台灣的優點那另外一方面就是說電價的部分或者節電的部分或者減碳本來就是個國際大趨勢"},{"start":4662.305,"end":4689.736,"text":"所以政府願意花比較多的資源來對這個中小企業他低碳化智慧化的部分來讓他節省相關的支出而且坦白講那個國際客戶也好或者他的供應鏈也都會看他有沒有做好這些ESG的減碳的工作那所以這個部分我們一定會去協助中小企業那委員如果有需要我們也其實都非常樂意到各個中小企業的聚落去跟他們做一個交流"},{"start":4690.496,"end":4716.03,"text":"還有其實我有看到那個我們的PPI跟CPI的指數那每一次的電價上漲的你看電價如果調整的時候PPI就是生產物價指數那就是製造端所就是說它的生產成本就增加那所以造成就是整個兩個都是雙漲的情況那代表了我們只要漲電價它就會轉嫁到所有的消費者的身上"},{"start":4716.61,"end":4743.388,"text":"所以這也就是為什麼大家在跟部長說的民生電價的部分如果你已經漲工業電價其實就會影響到民生的這個就是消費者的指數了那未來如果再漲民生電價那就是等於對他們來講就是雙重漲價那全部都會讓所有的民眾認為他們的痛苦指數有可能就會攀升"},{"start":4744.308,"end":4744.829,"text":"但是今天兩次都沒有名聲,對不對?"},{"start":4759.125,"end":4767.51,"text":"小商家的部分或者民生用電的部分確實都有做不同的你用電量的大小做不同的一個規劃那這個就是在過去的兩次的漲價裡面不斷的在優化這個相關的一個機制"},{"start":4776.074,"end":4804.202,"text":"對可是我必須要告訴部長從這個歷史的數字看來只要你就是工業的電價漲那對於就是物價指數就會造成聯動性的這是聯動性從PPI跟CPI來看就是聯動性的這樣子的漲幅所以你必須要看再來就是3月15日聽說我們的碳費審議委員會也要登場了是不是"},{"start":4805.483,"end":4824.616,"text":"這個也會影響到製造業者,是不是?相關的碳費的審議這邊是環境部會開始來召開我知道,可是你們經濟部一定要密切關注嗎?我們會,我們其實對這個...你們目前掌握的情況是如何的?因為第一次好像是這個禮拜五才開始召開"},{"start":4826.978,"end":4835.284,"text":"之前我們其實也有跟產業界有做非常多的溝通我們也會把產業界的這些意見也有反映給這個環境部"},{"start":4857.018,"end":4862.56,"text":"所以這個相關的會不會影響啊對不對我們現在看起來好像我們的接單很順暢但是在這種雙重的影響下漲電價然後開徵碳費會不會對於我們的製造業以及我們的景氣預估有相關的影響那經濟部的評估是怎麼樣謝謝委員提醒那所以在經濟部的電價部分那所以我們才會一直來爭取政府的補貼做最優先"},{"start":4886.97,"end":4892.275,"text":"那那個相關的這個影響產業的通膨PPI等等我們也會非常審慎那不過就是說確實台灣的這個電價的漲其實都比其他國家緩非常多那甚至我們看到韓電他在去年底已經變成轉虧為盈了他甚至都還那他就是韓電漲了84%等等那所以對台灣來講我們確實是更為謹慎"},{"start":4915.234,"end":4915.434,"text":"張綺楷委員"},{"start":4951.751,"end":4953.196,"text":"王美芳、王部長"},{"start":4962.463,"end":4988.897,"text":"我們繼續來談苦民所苦,民生第一我們現在重點還是在1000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲那討論之前我們就要談一個比較輕鬆的這民眾統計就是水電雙漲對不對今天兩個紅胎共伴效應這叫藤原效應嘛所以你今天能不能很明確的跟全國民眾講今年年底之前水價不會漲"},{"start":4991.117,"end":5018.15,"text":"水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎那我們也會希望這個台水公司能夠有好的一個支撐那這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論相關的這個台水的相關計畫應該是台水李董說有可能要去嘛李董你先站一下沒關係請站一下不過我只要今天部長對著我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了"},{"start":5019.58,"end":5026.848,"text":"盡量不要在今年年底 漲水價好不好 這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應 謝謝委員提醒目前還沒有規劃啦是 你能不能對著民眾說讓他們不要擔心盡量在今年年底 盡量在今年年底不要去水價可以嗎"},{"start":5040.661,"end":5062.286,"text":"謝謝委員建議我們會把委員的建議這個做參考你可以努力嗎?這方面可以努力這是避免物價整個再上來嘛物價上漲就跟那個變了心的女朋友就回不來喔你水跟電都漲這個到時候你看每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣好不好好謝謝委員好來那我們接下來來談上葉"},{"start":5065.626,"end":5089.683,"text":"苦民守苦,我們今天繼續談這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了我們看一下這個天平左邊非常明顯高獲利可是也是高耗電的高科技用了台灣絕大部分的電對不對他們雖然是獲利非常的多可是呢有些"},{"start":5091.138,"end":5092.779,"text":"臺電每賣給臺積電的電臺積電一年用了我們200億的200億度電的電錢跟臺電買的時候"},{"start":5119.765,"end":5121.486,"text":"委員這個建議我們也確實都會在工作小組裡面去參考"},{"start":5146.056,"end":5171.38,"text":"現在媒體報的是說這次的這個半導體超過50億、51億、一年用50億以上的51億度電的是要調25%到30是不是?他們正在討論都還沒有定案有這個方向是吧?細節因為我沒有參與所以我不了解好那這個天秤的同時我為什麼一開始講這一邊當然我們非常敬佩"},{"start":5172.185,"end":5196.971,"text":"高科技對我們台灣經濟的發展的這個貢獻你看張忠謀創辦人他是非常有企業責任社會責任他都提到說可以他願意徵這個富人稅嘛對不對我相信在我們的肯定高科技半導體對我們台灣經濟貢獻的時候這是條件的時候他們可能是像你們規劃的應該多負擔一點那在多負擔一點的同時是不是在兩層五到三層的同時我們看看右邊"},{"start":5199.127,"end":5214.495,"text":"可憐的是一般的老百姓一千度以下的是小康之家是小商店一直要等著什麼高通膨實質的薪資負成長通膨這個是主計數的統計2020年2.95這算很高了2023年2.49今年一過CPI稍微降下一點點最讓人家擔心的二月份衝破3"},{"start":5227.498,"end":5253.448,"text":"CPI衝破3.08國發會直接評估了說電價如果漲10%的話CPI直接會有建制影響性0.2到0.3%所以真的要非常非常的謹慎對物價的衝擊不要造成人民已經很苦了這時候電價一漲他們的生活更苦那今天還有更新的新聞我給部長看一下來今天是各報還有各個電視台頭條的新聞"},{"start":5257.059,"end":5284.403,"text":"通膨怪獸又突襲美國今天統心的統計美國的二月的CPI連增多少?3.2%核心的CPI連增了3.8%這個都顯示不是只有美國整個台灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊所以拜託補定拜託補定 再拜託一次是1000度以下的民生用電在開會的時候盡量爭取不要漲好不好"},{"start":5285.736,"end":5313.141,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,我們各方的意見都會收集,是OK,盡量往這個方向走,好不好那另外我在爭取幫全民講話的時候,我們再看下一張至少讓物價不要上漲的同時有一個方法除了補償電價之外,就是盡量去補助小商家跟小商店對不對是小商家小商店他如果不苦,他沒有調高他價格,人民就不會受苦嘛"},{"start":5314.338,"end":5329.389,"text":"所以最近馬上要開行政院的物價平穩小組是不是?是。最近要開嘛對不對?你能不能建議第一個小商家的小商店的統裝瓦斯跟天然氣在今年年底之前只能降,不要漲?"},{"start":5332.893,"end":5349.661,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告我們已經很久沒有站我們現在賣給他是8塊多可是成本委員知道多少嗎?最高是16塊那現在雖然降一點大概15塊、14塊可是事實上我們基本上是半價桶裝瓦斯在賣給用桶賣給賣給商家這個是好的措施而且我幫你查過了天然氣的價格是在往下掉的"},{"start":5361.243,"end":5382.236,"text":"但是掉還是有十幾塊所以我的要求是合理的我說至少在今年年底你只能降不要再漲好不好我們對小商家都會優於考慮不是我說很具體的能不能做這樣的承諾因為老實講他已經在降了對不對那所以如果降的話你就跟著降"},{"start":5383.465,"end":5407.565,"text":"因為老蔣對小商店跟小店家吃麵吃飯他們影響很大就是他們的瓦斯嗎?這些統裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧所以能不能做一個很清楚的保證就是在今年年底之前只會降不會漲我們一定會優於考慮我已經看到我們過去這兩三年都沒有漲這個已經都乖離成本很多了"},{"start":5408.946,"end":5413.029,"text":"公平會跟九佳民營電廠打官司這個事情他最新的進度是公平會贏了"},{"start":5437.113,"end":5457.968,"text":"公平會贏了,然後公平會的主委我禮拜一的時候質詢的時候他們說現在重點在下一張,現在到底要到底要罰他多少錢公平會本來罰他的是63.2億現在要改罰可能60.7億因為兩個重點喔,第一是發多少錢第二個更重要的他認定說九家民營電廠的聯合行為"},{"start":5460.115,"end":5486.843,"text":"確定已經是事實了,就是說九佳民營電廠已經是已經是敗訴了,已經敗訴了最高行政法院裡面還有一句話非常重要,判決書裡面說的臺電可以去跟任何一家你跟他買電的九佳民營電廠或者是能源公司你可以去跟他議價這就本席一直在強調的,你要臺電在虧損的同時,人民要付錢要漲電費之前所有的你跟他買電的九佳民營電廠,太陽能"},{"start":5487.887,"end":5496.637,"text":"去篩檢一下他合約合不合理有沒有降降空間好不好這個部分我簡單跟委員報告他是兩件事他等於是97年到102年這個之間都沒有來跟台電來談那公平會是針對這一段時間實驗來談有沒有聯合壟斷的問題那公平會判定是有那法院也支持"},{"start":5510.311,"end":5512.852,"text":"目前他們這個案子在上訴當中他們在再審這個是針對聯合壟斷至於這個電價的部分102年台電就跟他們已經議價完成了目前是針對102年之前到97年到102年之間的這個遲延的部分台電有去打官司要求這個部分那一二審都輸掉了"},{"start":5535.598,"end":5546.491,"text":"那目前是法院有發回在審理當中那這個我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情來做所以法定人員要更努力去爭取把這個官司打贏這是一個我現在在提醒你就是說當初為什麼酒店名店長會被罰"},{"start":5552.517,"end":5580.516,"text":"他們跟台電講說我的那個天然氣往上走啦所以你要幫我調嘛 對不對那台電這邊提的是什麼你利息從8%降到2%結果台電勾一郎啊台電被九佳民營電廠欺負啦他幫他調了天然氣的這個成本就跟你這次一樣喔天然氣答應他啦可是往下的利息沒有降沒有降所以最高行政法院講了一句話台電有權利去跟他繼續議約不是只有對九佳民營電廠旗桿現在本席現在在力爭的是什麼"},{"start":5582.657,"end":5598.242,"text":"包括太陽能力都出現了,你看雲豹19間,還有黃偉哲那個案子,我說那個有弊案的能不能好好去每一個合約拿出來談一下能不能去談我跟委員報告,雲豹到今年開始他97%全部都直接賣給民間他都是直接賣給民間可是你之前買他的合約為什麼產生那麼多弊案"},{"start":5604.224,"end":5624.603,"text":"沒有沒有 這個不是 那麼多家 其實國際上都一樣 不同的太陽光電案場 它都是一個BPI的概念它就是會有一個子公司 但是它不是為了逃避 它全世界我們去看的都是一樣部長 等一下我會把文書送給你 最高行政法院裡面有一句話非常重要"},{"start":5624.983,"end":5625.503,"text":"謝謝委員資訊 謝謝部長我們現在請楊瓊英委員資訊 謝謝"},{"start":5661.853,"end":5663.495,"text":"業主席本席想邀請部長請自來水董事長請台電公司"},{"start":5674.793,"end":5695.364,"text":"部長,因為物價讓大家都蠻緊張的,又通膨,物價在升高。國防會的主委也說電價調漲確實會推升物價上漲,而且還不包括間接的效果。那你認同國防會主委這一句話嗎?"},{"start":5697.586,"end":5701.531,"text":"電價跟物價的部分我們各個機關都會很謹慎來看待是表示你也知道國防會主委所說的電價調漲確實會推升物價調漲"},{"start":5717.256,"end":5733.643,"text":"他有相關的這個模型 經濟的模型所以你也知道 電價漲 物價會漲 對不對是 是喔 好 那所以我們的方向一致我們才能夠討論那剛剛有委員說 有我們臺水的董事長說要調調高這個水費 有這回事嗎董事長有沒有 目前沒有董事長你說沒有 我放心 董事長你會這麼說嗎 有嗎"},{"start":5744.108,"end":5753.011,"text":"這個是政策性的問題你有說嗎?跟委員報告是媒體有在關心這個議題你有說今天要調漲水價嗎?沒有我願意給你置信的機會嘛因為我不認為你會這麼大"},{"start":5764.497,"end":5764.637,"text":"拜託放心!"},{"start":5781.033,"end":5806.573,"text":"水會不會漲?你請回座接下來我們討論電的問題因為部長我們剛剛說了電如果漲物價會漲你也認同那3月7日衛福部才說取消全國醫療院所的掛號費漲價的上限那所以呢馬上所以醫療院所立馬還漲這個是只要政府有一個決策那"},{"start":5807.742,"end":5823.256,"text":"大家都會應對上來所以4月份電價要全面調漲的訊息一出來就已經開始有物價在漲我們問了為什麼會漲他說因為政府說下個月要漲那麼有確定要漲嗎?不漲?目前的這個電價審議會都在審理當中那你所送的資料是要漲的?"},{"start":5834.236,"end":5854.084,"text":"目前因為我們也跟我們報告過 因為我們第一個優先爭取補貼 第二個就相關的方案政府有沒有告訴你一定要補貼你多少了 因為我們全力支持你啊 第一項把它做完整就好了 是"},{"start":5854.984,"end":5862.166,"text":"你都不會再物價漲啊全部又亂掉啊什麼時候會告訴我們政府要補貼多少你的儘快是多快你的儘快是多快 這個月底會不會告訴我們對 那院的決策什麼時候會因為這個月底就要店家審議嘛委員會要審啊"},{"start":5879.994,"end":5903.53,"text":"那可不可以告訴我們下個禮拜前能不能告訴我們你所溝通的我們全力支持啊不然我們去拜託行政院都沒有關係啊全部做你的後盾好不好第一個你的方案執行到位電就不要漲了民生用電330度以下本席一直堅持不能漲不能漲不能漲很嚴肅的議題所以我漲了三次下個禮拜能不能告訴我們行政院告訴我們"},{"start":5910.063,"end":5910.744,"text":"因為稅直接讓人民得到公道"},{"start":5920.509,"end":5942.985,"text":"那下個禮拜可不告訴我們行政院到底會補貼我們多少?可不可以?這個部分我們會來跟行政院趕快確認這件事情部長你都說趕快啊所以我還給你多點時間啊下個禮拜前告訴我們到底行政院針對目前的危機他到底要給台電補貼多少好不好跟多少預算來不算補貼啦"},{"start":5946.067,"end":5946.328,"text":"我本人願意"},{"start":5958.243,"end":5985.311,"text":"去拜託行政院我都願意為人民我都願意下個禮拜前告訴我們政府到底要補貼給台電多少好不好我們再實質討論創了19個月如果依照您所送的版本我們20年來沒有調生的小用戶在這一次你都要調那換句話說民生用電至少調5%那也是19年來最高的最高的"},{"start":5986.092,"end":5990.674,"text":"政府部門都告訴我們 如果調漲電價就會推升物價 喔我們差在等咧 我們真的差在等咧 這要怎麼辦 所以我告訴你 如果電價漲10% 那麼你的CPI0.12%"},{"start":6004.534,"end":6030.694,"text":"再加上間接的CPI會漲到0.2到0.3這個數字都是公開透明的那如果因此呢會讓我們CPI迅速增到上升到2%他會觸及到這一句話很嚴肅他會觸及到通膨的警戒線部長你沒憂心啊人家那個國防部長啊都說他煩惱的晚上睡不著"},{"start":6031.536,"end":6050.932,"text":"那你有沒有憂心啊?你有沒有憂心去及到通膨的警戒線?你有沒有憂心?有沒有憂心?我們確實各部門確實都很努力讓台灣的通膨來減緩我想過去這兩三年委員應該也看得到你這麼回答也表示你憂心憂心我要實質作為我要請教傳統產業你給它漲價它就要倒了你再給它漲它倒了就爬不起來了啦"},{"start":6060.905,"end":6075.624,"text":"所以我們現在我曾經告訴你拜託支持我們的產業支持我們的產業你不能夠倒啦傳統產業不能倒啦倒的糟糕啦所以在這樣的情況下你的配套是什麼你怎麼協助他"},{"start":6076.425,"end":6076.846,"text":"本期還是拜託你拜託你啦"},{"start":6101.213,"end":6125.9,"text":"傳統產業你不可以去啦!三百三十多億的民生用電你不可以去啦!好不好?因為你要穩住我們的民生啊!穩住我們的物價啊!對不對?一起來做!配套給我!我們到目前為止看不到你要怎麼機器漲價之後傳統產業的配套方案在哪裡?讓他們能夠屹立不搖不能倒!"},{"start":6127.076,"end":6147.33,"text":"你詳細書面資料給本席,好不好?我已經問了第三次,我還得不到你口中所說的配套措施只告訴我們一起來維護,怎麼維護?請你把書面資料詳細給本席本席要求,垃圾不放棄因為這是觸及整個全國每一家都要用到"},{"start":6148.325,"end":6165.457,"text":"你最能夠直接照顧你能不能答應我在年底以前我們的瓦斯統統瓦斯燈瓦斯不能漲好不好是我們統統瓦斯你答應不要漲我也給你暫許好不好我們一家有330度以下的民生業店請不要漲傳統產業不要漲你去盤點啊"},{"start":6169.039,"end":6169.059,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6199.319,"end":6199.679,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6219.284,"end":6231.448,"text":"防堵這些的技術不當外流你要怎麼樣去強化你的審查流程?是的 這個我們其實也都有跟國際合作 我們都隨時在跟國際合作 那內部的審查流程也都有內部在討論"},{"start":6236.05,"end":6236.85,"text":"最後一個議題循環經濟第1這是大家都最在討論的議題本席要請問"},{"start":6255.18,"end":6266.345,"text":"大家全世界聯合國世界各國都在做循環經濟的概念我們也配合我們跟國際接軌你的執行率你看2021年到2023年3年3556萬8千元你看看你的成績指標"},{"start":6273.993,"end":6291.546,"text":"你的成績指標,你的學術成績有入文,零技術創新智慧財產,零技術創新辦理技術研討會,一場經濟效益促進廠商投資的建築一件更新會新增的這個資料庫比例"},{"start":6292.546,"end":6297.288,"text":"三十筆那這樣的計畫是低到不能再低的KPI本期請教部長你滿意嗎你滿意嗎委員這個字有點小齁我回去確認一下再跟委員做一個什麼叫字有點小我已經口頭已經數字明明白白的告訴你了你定定的這樣的KPI你滿意嗎"},{"start":6314.936,"end":6322.963,"text":"好好回去,拿你的放大鏡看清楚這是你在執行的業務欸你還跟我說字比較小"},{"start":6324.127,"end":6344.6,"text":"不能如此好好去檢討全世界的方向我們的KPI 0000只有一件衣你的這個更新資料30筆你滿意嗎請你回去用放大鏡去看清楚告訴本席你滿意嗎好不好不滿意趕快改進資料跟世界接軌好不好謝謝楊瓊瑛委員的質詢謝謝部長瓊瑛姐"},{"start":6360.932,"end":6362.372,"text":"我們再請王部長"},{"start":6391.35,"end":6412.822,"text":"部長好,部長我想跟你討論一下,你知道我一直很關心這整個生霸電力第二期燃氣他特種建物變更案,對不對?是。然後呢,你明明知道我們很關心,但是呢,你們又越來越便宜行事。"},{"start":6414.434,"end":6443.505,"text":"我一直跟你們要到底你們怎麼決定他所謂的特種建物是不是可以變更而且他的變更我一直強調當一個建物他如果從基底一層一層慢慢變更我相信大家不會有意見可是他是一次完成一次變更被掩蓋在底下的所有的問題沒有人知道但是"},{"start":6445.049,"end":6473.351,"text":"你們就開了一次的會議這個會議是什麼在112年11月15日禮拜三利用我們當時候大家都在選舉的時間點好開了這個會議這個會議裡面找了委員有三個人你們說的委員都沒有意見委員敢背書好厲害喔委員又沒有從"},{"start":6474.795,"end":6504.341,"text":"最基層在他第一次變更的時候就參與了他怎麼能夠看到後面他怎麼能趕上的背書就真的有欸有三個委員說對特建變更部分無意見他怎麼無意見他看到了哪些資料好裡面還有市政府"},{"start":6506.198,"end":6506.919,"text":"市政府也沒意見"},{"start":6537.267,"end":6558.31,"text":"部長如果你住在地方你住在那個附近從頭到尾三十幾項的變更從頭到尾地方沒有人知道到了完成之後提出了特種建物的變更之後大家才了解你敢接受嗎"},{"start":6560.712,"end":6571.874,"text":"跟委員報告整個特建的變更因為當時是審查通過的案子那因為電廠的建設有他的特殊性所以他要根據他實際上所採購的機器設備針對特種建築的部分做比較的他從頭到尾都是變更的從頭到尾跟你們原始送的計畫都不一樣跟他們原本的規劃也都不同"},{"start":6587.437,"end":6597.462,"text":"然後全部蓋完之後才一次給能源署變更然後你們就這幾個委員談談市政府這樣子同意包庇就OK了嗎?"},{"start":6605.586,"end":6628.384,"text":"由業者他也根據我們原來通過的原則標準都跟當時通過的原則標準一樣再次的審視那裡一樣?如果真的一樣那為什麼不一項一項的變更?他為什麼不一項一項變更?針對37項那為什麼當時候不一項一項的變更?要一次從頭到尾施工完成之後再一次變更為什麼?為什麼?"},{"start":6632.838,"end":6655.396,"text":"今天你蓋房子你一般蓋房子跟地方政府去申請跟各縣市政府去申請的時候你要不要一層一層變更當我們政府國家重大的公共建設的時候要不要一項一項變更報告委員因為在環評階段我們送出去的設計都是比較初期的設計那真正"},{"start":6656.577,"end":6667.759,"text":"通過之後才開始細部設計我舉個例子來講今天他買一個變壓器他這個就是細部設計的變更阿對他是細部設計後來才做細部設計變更他是細部設計的變更他原本就有做細部設計了我告訴你我要質詢你我一定了解很清楚啦他從頭到尾從一開始有細部設計了他現在變更的是細部設計他提出了37項變更就是針對細部設計"},{"start":6683.799,"end":6688.381,"text":"立法院經濟委員會來作出主決議深化電廠多項二期工程以完工之後才進行向能源署申請變更設計"},{"start":6709.591,"end":6731.789,"text":"注多設計與當初環境影響評估的內容不同為考量當地居民權益及公共安全經濟部能源署必須提出調查報告並要求召開地方說明會台南市永康區、新市區、新化區、山上區、佐鎮區否則不得擅自同意申報店長所提出的變更設計請貴單位"},{"start":6736.328,"end":6742.51,"text":"要詳細監督有沒有這是我們的主決議有沒有對啊有這樣的決議那你們憑什麼現在都同意他變更"},{"start":6752.774,"end":6756.957,"text":"要組成一個專案小組來做詳細的審查所以我們才會有外部的委員包括相關的主管機關那你今天就是這份資料嘛找了三個委員然後開了一個會議記錄然後呢就遵循說你們有沒有意見沒有意見這就是背書嘛我很懷疑為什麼這三個委員剛背書啊"},{"start":6778.974,"end":6797.148,"text":"如果發生問題我們可不可以找他算帳可不可以來第二個部分請問這裡面的主決議寫得很清楚喔調查報告並要求召開地方說明會喔如果沒有的話不得擅自同意森巴店長所提出的變更設計喔有沒有"},{"start":6797.668,"end":6812.342,"text":"是跟委員報告就是第一個特件變更完：那委員關心的說明會所以也沒有沒有寫得很清楚你要不得擅自同意深壩電廠所提出的變更設計這是變更設計這個是一個這個特件的變更是一個"},{"start":6816.866,"end":6817.026,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6849.168,"end":6850.168,"text":"那是其中一個部分正當中"},{"start":6875.106,"end":6896.49,"text":"署長你要不要調我之前從頭到尾我所有的質詢我講的就是變更設計就是建築特種建築物的變更案我從頭到尾講的都是這個喔你們現在在跟我玩文字遊戲然後東扯西扯你們現在是為誰拋屁啊我只有問如果地方發生問題誰要擔當誰要負責"},{"start":6902.104,"end":6907.048,"text":"誰要擔當?誰要負責?這個特種建築物變更從頭到尾沒有進行變更一次完成提出37項的變更然後呢你說要調查報告沒有調查報告只有一份所謂的會議紀錄請了三個委員跟台南市政府你們跟我講委員沒有意見台南市政府沒有意見就只有徵詢他們的意見"},{"start":6928.326,"end":6951.314,"text":"然後他說我對特種變更沒有意見這樣就結束了這樣就結束了然後呢我裡面寫得很清楚我的主決議就說要召開地方說明會我就說嘛你才能對於這個森巴電廠的變更才能同意沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":6952.394,"end":6980.334,"text":"這個說明會我們會等天然氣管線已經做了智慧檢測天然氣管線檢測完之後會有完整的組長哈囉哈囉哈囉哈囉我裡面有說是天然氣管線嗎你要不要看我的主決議呢哈囉哈囉你要不要看我的主決議你要不要看我的主決議嗎我又沒有說天然氣管線我們真的管線我當時候所有的質詢好多樣"},{"start":6981.977,"end":6985.498,"text":"都是為了地方的安全我質詢好多樣我有寫管線嗎?我在這裡面有寫管線嗎?我講的是一體性的在你來看可是今天你要我從頭到尾從頭到尾我的質詢"},{"start":7002.967,"end":7015.172,"text":"你們怎麼能夠包庇成這個樣子你們怎麼能夠這樣子依照你們的想法請問我們地方的權益跟我們的安全在哪裡在哪裡在哪裡你們都已經同意他了特種都同意他了署長"},{"start":7032.827,"end":7043.774,"text":"我只要了解誰替我們地方的安全把關?誰?誰?誰?好!那如果發生問題你要負責嗎?如果發生問題你要負責嗎?如果發生了任何危險性的問題你都不會負責啦!當你下去都不會負責啦!誰在中央?"},{"start":7060.876,"end":7061.636,"text":"請接下來鄭天才委員請做巡大"},{"start":7093.314,"end":7115.004,"text":"委員請部長請部長好部長好水利法第78條河川區域河川區域內只有沒有提到不得私有土地不得私沒有規定78條之一一樣沒有規定說不得私有"},{"start":7123.073,"end":7150.387,"text":"水利法第78條之二也沒有規定說不得私有水利法第82條對於水道治理計劃線或者是用地範圍線的土地也沒有規定不得私有水利法只有第83條有規定尋常洪水位、行水區域之土地"},{"start":7153.1,"end":7174.966,"text":"其原為公有者：不得移轉為私有：以私有者：可以徵收這個是只有水利法第83條規定循床洪水不得私有這個讓部長瞭解一下河流最靠近河流的"},{"start":7175.919,"end":7203.44,"text":"就是水利法第83 尋常洪水位行水區然後為了要蓋堤防的地方叫水利法第82條治理縣用地方為縣然後最外面的就是河川七一縣土地法第14條第三款第14條的第一項的第三款"},{"start":7205.402,"end":7234.272,"text":"過去一直到現在經濟部水利署都以這個第三款作為第78條這個看一下水利法82條跟78條之二都是用這個土地法第14條的第一項的第三款"},{"start":7236.664,"end":7260.027,"text":"好土地法第14條的第一項第三款可通用之水道戴秀雄教授認為這樣引用這個是錯誤的因為臺灣並沒有可通用之水道可通用水道要那個滑船啊輪船啊不是滑船啊要那個輪船可以的沒有臺灣沒有"},{"start":7262.722,"end":7289.987,"text":"好,原住民族基本法第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地的權利所以因為這條原基法條文內政部內政部主管機關土地法的主管機關對第14條土地法第14條第一項各款規定不得私有的話定言者他做了修正105年12月做了修正"},{"start":7291.363,"end":7316.187,"text":"土地法第14條第一項各款規定不得私有土地但原住民申請經工廠管理機關同意配合提供增化邊緣住民保留地者可以所以這個部分但是到目前為止這個水利署都不願意都不願意好"},{"start":7317.95,"end":7344.094,"text":"尤其是以奉合定增化邊沿住林堡的立者讓部長瞭解,增化邊沿住林堡的立的合定是誰合定的?是行政院合定哦行政院已經合定了水利署依然不同意依然不同意然後呢以設定耕作前、地上前或農業前之沿住林堡的立者"},{"start":7346.862,"end":7370.171,"text":"會設定耕作權、地上權也就是經過行政院核定核定之後這塊土地核定為原住民保留地然後才設定耕作權、地上權都已經設定耕作權、地上權了都水利署到現在都還是不願意所以這個部分"},{"start":7372.049,"end":7395.948,"text":"這裡面已經因排除劃入不得私有土地範圍 這不是我規定的 是內政部針對土地法14條所定的劃定原則所以部長 這個要請你 這個要做決定 因為部長是學法律的"},{"start":7397.395,"end":7423.976,"text":"水利署不是寫法律的,他們只考量到工程啊!他們考量到工程啊!想替人民省錢啊!為什麼呢?他特別,這個106年8月1號水利署的公文我們看最後下面的兩句話一、未來治理首席之範圍來認定"},{"start":7427.668,"end":7450.765,"text":"以未來治理首席之範圍來認定,依原紀律法規定辦理。這個,我們就看到這條線。現在的狀況,治理線,有的地方還沒有蓋堤防,所以這個水利署那張公文是說以未來治理的需要的範圍。"},{"start":7453.137,"end":7478.929,"text":"這個我們還可以稍微容忍一下我跟署長講過但是呢提防已經蓋好了提防已經蓋好了到河川七一線這中間的依法都應該要增加邊緣原住民保留地但是水利署我也不知道什麼原因"},{"start":7481.28,"end":7481.48,"text":"部長：部長"},{"start":7503.902,"end":7532.352,"text":"可以嗎?依法行政啊：就依內政部啊：他是主管機關啊：可以嗎?土地法是一般法那委員也知道那那個這個相關的這個水利法的部分有更細膩的像委員講的78、82、83那哪一些可以有沒有什麼例外的可行性我再跟水利署討論一下很明確的"},{"start":7534.093,"end":7560.03,"text":"只有水利法83這個我們法律明定不得私有我們絕對遵守法律78、82都沒有說不得私有啦所以戴秀雄教授或者是內政部基於土地主管機關土地法主管機關也都認為是這樣所以這個部分請部長我再跟他們詳細討論好謝謝"},{"start":7564.702,"end":7579.282,"text":"另外最後這個我就要看也讓部長瞭解看一下這個提防都已經蓋好了這個提防提防都已經蓋好了"},{"start":7580.031,"end":7580.392,"text":"事由管理法36條"},{"start":7595.356,"end":7618.704,"text":"特別規定偏遠地區、原住民族地區及離島地區的這個相關的這些統裝瓦斯的一個補貼統裝瓦斯的補貼那這個上次的統裝瓦斯補貼大概已經有三四年沒有調高所以這個部分也請這個"},{"start":7621.616,"end":7640.35,"text":"我們經濟部還有相關的能源署能夠調高,可以嗎?我們有根據整個成本的情況今年會做檢討。好好好,謝謝。我們現在請鄭正前委員質詢,謝謝。"},{"start":7645.865,"end":7646.306,"text":"主席 請部長"},{"start":7664.587,"end":7679.739,"text":"市長,去年外國人直接來台投資的部分,因為新的數字出來了,我想請教部長,你對外資來台的部分是不是很歡迎?"},{"start":7684.841,"end":7698.462,"text":"當然是當然歡迎嘛那你對於那個大陸的企業陸資來台的時候是不是也歡迎他符合我們的規定我們當然也是歡迎的是所以對於港澳的投資呢"},{"start":7699.946,"end":7722.543,"text":"港澳的投資因為他會背後有的時候會涉及到有沒有入資的問題所以港澳的投資的部分有時候是比照外資但是他如果有入資超過百分比的話也會比照入資的規定來審查所以我們港澳的來台投資的統計數字是算在外資裡面還算在入資裡面"},{"start":7723.834,"end":7724.154,"text":"在外資裏面"},{"start":7745.396,"end":7763.087,"text":"我們投審司這個裡面的一些資料的時候我們對於那個裡面的資料提供的資料感覺好像不是很充分因為之前的時候呢我們可以查到一些相關的資料可是現在感覺查不到像港澳相關的資料我們在這邊是查不到的"},{"start":7763.427,"end":7765.148,"text":"我們的所有的外資投資案件我們都會對外的揭露"},{"start":7785.171,"end":7800.402,"text":"是,那介紹就很簡單,就是比方說哪個公司多少錢就這樣,那我們本來想說是不是有更友善的方式,我們要查詢的時候是查詢得到的因為目前我上網去查是沒有查詢到,如果你們有更好的一個功能的部分,有更好的功能嗎?"},{"start":7802.046,"end":7825.065,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為我至少我上去他就是非常的不友善就是只能夠簡單看到就是時間序列出來然後看不到你沒有任何查詢的一個機制那之後如果要補充說明再到本辦來稍微做一下說明那我另外想要提到另外一個點就是說我想問一下部長就是說因為你覺得我看到那個我們"},{"start":7826.446,"end":7854.742,"text":"經濟部的一個新聞稿就對於整個外商來台灣投資的部分的時候我覺得感覺到經濟部是熱誠歡迎的可是對於陸資來台投資的時候我就感覺就感覺態度是不太一樣的那我這邊我想要講一個點就是說我們對於整個台灣以外的企業來台灣投資我覺得應該都站在一個歡迎的立場我這是很重要的一個點因為我看到一個數字就是說對於大陸來台投資"},{"start":7856.423,"end":7877.515,"text":"僅30件,金額2969萬美金然後聊勝於無用一個聊勝於無這樣的一個字眼的時候我覺得感覺就有一些價值判斷在那裡頭啦那我是覺得可能不是那麼適合你們回去看一下你們的新聞稿再來跟我因為我是從你們新聞稿裡面看到的字眼我就覺得感覺有一些不一樣的態度"},{"start":7877.875,"end":7880.558,"text":"本集辦公室也常常接到一個狀態就是說從港澳來台灣投資的狀態的時候感覺會碰到很多"},{"start":7900.086,"end":7900.206,"text":"應該沒有"},{"start":7917.059,"end":7917.259,"text":"目前沒有,對"},{"start":7931.363,"end":7931.683,"text":"姓寶基金"},{"start":7948.395,"end":7964.352,"text":"中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告裡面他有特別提到了一個點就說我們整個信保基金整個信保基金他"},{"start":7966.855,"end":7970.16,"text":"到去年6月底指預期還款的筆數有到11萬筆那預期保證金額超過174億元平均新發生的預期比例高達3.83%這個數字沒有錯嘛"},{"start":7985.114,"end":8008.212,"text":"是 報告委員是沒有錯那他裡面就特別提到了一個點就是說如果說我們現在整個城堡的保證金額它的平均發生的預期比率計算的時候整體可能預期的理賠金額會高達364億元那麼跟整個當時我們在這個特別預算的時候本來"},{"start":8010.202,"end":8034.802,"text":"保證那個專款預算是870億後來流用到其他的部其他的項目當中的時候導致我們保證專款可用的預算僅剩下245億元對不對那我們如果按照原本3.83的預期比率去推的時候呢我們整個的信保基金的一個預期理賠的金額可能會到達364億那跟當時的"},{"start":8040.049,"end":8046.792,"text":"245億的時候會產生119億元的缺口我想請問部長這119億你要從哪裡補回來?報告委員因為這個新發生預期率它每個月都會變動所以目前我們觀察的狀況目前245億如果這個要來賠付的話以目前的新發生預期率來看的話應該還足夠"},{"start":8066.339,"end":8081.05,"text":"還足夠?對,如果說不夠的話,當初主計總署有承諾說他們會從這個年度預算來撥補給信保基金。從年度預算來撥補?對,就是我們會再提這個預算。也要補辦預算?是是是。OK,如果說補辦預算的時候,坦白說"},{"start":8083.832,"end":8095.385,"text":"我們一定是支持中小企業的所以我們對中小企業的支持反映在性保基因當中我們特別的關注因為我們擔心如果這119億補不進去的時候會不會影響到之後中小企業他們"},{"start":8101.112,"end":8126.113,"text":"之後要得到信訪基金支持會不會更困難所以本期提這個部分的時候呢要特別提醒就是我們經濟部這邊因為我這1191是按照你們的數字算出來那審計部的報告也提到了這個部分所以我們認為這1191是很可能會發生的狀態那我們希望能夠提早把這個預算能夠儘早把它補辦起來"},{"start":8128.095,"end":8136.184,"text":"不要到時候影響到整個中小企業需要得到信保基金支持的時候而不夠我覺得這是我們針對這個問題當中我們看到一個最大的問題那至於說當時這個870億的特別預算後來有625億流用到什麼地方"},{"start":8146.636,"end":8149.498,"text":"政府一定會讓信保基金可以來擔保中小企業的部分 這個政府一定會支持"},{"start":8165.169,"end":8183.563,"text":"最後請部長把針對我們去年一些外商投資的相關的資料希望能夠分國家跟地區給我一個詳細的資料那我也想特別知道從港澳這邊過來的資金到底有多少好 謝謝謝謝鄭振淺委員接下來我們請張家駿委員發言"},{"start":8199.065,"end":8200.369,"text":"主席我想請部長來請王部長"},{"start":8207.102,"end":8234.992,"text":"部長我相信大家最近一直瘋狂的請教你關於漲電費的事情但我今天想要問您有關於這個水利的問題尤其是水利署前瞻計畫水與安全的這個前四期編列了將近500億的預算持續補助地方的政府推廣這個防洪治理成效非常好那我想要請問一下到目前為止"},{"start":8237.253,"end":8263.951,"text":"這個第4期的執行：水與安全的執行情形為何?好,謝謝委員指導。那,截至目前為止,我們已經合訂了雲林縣超過53億元。現在執行的狀況,我們也跟雲林縣政府一起來努力。那雲林縣政府現在還有19件還沒有發包。那我們希望它加速。那未來,當然雲林是一個"},{"start":8265.211,"end":8265.452,"text":"主席﹖"},{"start":8284.161,"end":8284.201,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":8303.557,"end":8325.75,"text":"幫我們雲林來努力因為我們雲林縣不只是一煙水地區我們還有地層下限地區所以真的農民也非常的辛苦很需要說我們水利署所有的人員包括我們在地的這些工作人員能夠在第一線能夠把這些事務做好那我想要請教就是說第5期預計什麼時候送到我們立院來審查"},{"start":8331.417,"end":8345.682,"text":"這個是要看國安會的時候啟動的時候那第5期的話原則上應該是明年需要去執行的那我相信目前國安會已經在詢問各部會第5期的計畫那國安會應該也會在今年的上半年完整以後應該會送到立法院來"},{"start":8355.265,"end":8356.106,"text":"我相信部長也認同吧"},{"start":8381.963,"end":8405.196,"text":"我認同說一定要一段接一段把它完整的做好那有很多計畫其實是需要部長包括署長繼續協助尤其我們雲林縣剛剛署長有講有19件那個19件可能是已經有列管的可是遠遠超過19件以上的需要做的那我現在手上有幾件是"},{"start":8406.016,"end":8414.906,"text":"可能是預備工程啦預備工程還沒有進入這個正式工程的包括海口大排包括舊莊大排包括這個舊頂皮頭大排還有一無中排有材料大排還有熱內排水"},{"start":8425.217,"end":8453.089,"text":"這個中西橋下游段這一些的那我舉例來說海口大排這個出口閘門非常老舊而且他的抽血量體不足所以導致於他的上游五條港地區經常淹水那他急需要改善那他現在只是預備工程所以也希望說可以儘速轉列為正式工程那包括舊莊大排他是在"},{"start":8453.869,"end":8469.601,"text":"大批的南邊的區域排水那這個區域經常有淹水的狀況那這一期工程完成之後就可以達到全段治理的目標可以說是最後一里路而且說實在他的這個"},{"start":8470.842,"end":8484.489,"text":"也沒有算很高啦所以也很希望說是不是今天既然部長署長都在這裡希望可以盡快的把它列為正式工程那另外包括這個舊頂皮大排的引川峻橋下游排水整治"},{"start":8489.873,"end":8510.571,"text":"這個部分他現有橋樑有阻礙水流的情況那這一段就是剛好位於排水的出口段那這個工程完成之後就也是整段就改善完成了所以可以解決二輪跟西螺的淹水狀況我們找的絕對不是說不用走叫你來走的都是那種重點希望說"},{"start":8512.953,"end":8535.703,"text":"真的是錯下去之後馬上是全段能夠有改善或者是整段能夠完成的而且不是說一定要求說這個金額一定要很多有一些其實是小小的沒有很多人說兩三千萬可是他實際能夠改善的所以這一點懇求這個部長跟署長一定可以趕快競速的核定"},{"start":8536.403,"end":8559.003,"text":"我們在今年年初已經啟動了所有的盤點我們未來在第5期的額度裡面往中南部若干非常多的縣市除了雲林縣之外還有很多的需求我們會統一的來做檢討那其中由於用地取得比如說已經完成用地取得的設計已經完成我們在第5期的額度裡面會優先來予以考量"},{"start":8559.503,"end":8573.637,"text":"那委員所提的這個八件的這個預備工程裡面有一些若是有符合這些的條件我們未來再評比了之後會來注意對希望可以優先進速來處理因為畢竟我聽說就是說如果沒有特別委員關切的話要排得遙遙無期那我的鄉親真的是因應其判因為淹水"},{"start":8583.286,"end":8604.416,"text":"其實我覺得說我會重振也是因為看到鄉親淹水之苦我會覺得說不應該真的不應該那淹水真的太難過了所以真的很期待說我們一起來共同做好事確實這幾年因為有前瞻預算那政府也非常重視那個易淹水地區的改善那這個對鄉下的農民居民其實是很有感的"},{"start":8607.637,"end":8630.657,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8630.917,"end":8633.099,"text":"三百三十度以下的民生電費動漲還有希望說農業用電跟漁業用電動漲之外"},{"start":8652.637,"end":8674.338,"text":"高跨那個節流的部分就是也希望有一個因應措施過去那個中小企業發展條例中有規定如果企業為基層員工調高薪資就能夠享有減稅的優惠這項規定是為了鼓勵企業能夠為最基層的員工加薪提高這個員工基層的待遇可是這個"},{"start":8674.718,"end":8680.702,"text":"約定今年5月19日就要到期了：那所以本席也要提出修法希望延長這樣子的措施請問部長支持嗎是是那我們目前院的版本吼草案也已經拿出來了我們草案正在這個讓大家表示意見那我們會用盡快的速度也會大家的意見完了以後送到院裡面趕快送到立法院來審查我們也是贊成要延長這一點要拜託部長對阿盡快的"},{"start":8703.618,"end":8705.099,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員我們現在休息5分鐘11點再回來開會"},{"start":9165.898,"end":9175.743,"text":"來請大家回座我們要開始繼續開會了謝謝好我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":9197.168,"end":9197.748,"text":"王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員"},{"start":9220.725,"end":9231.234,"text":"謝謝委員肯定經濟部的努力謝謝對我希望你留任如果不能留任我也希望你說有更高的職位更好的發展那你個人的規劃呢"},{"start":9233.688,"end":9254.755,"text":"我沒有個人的規劃是我想在經濟部因為委員非常清楚經濟部的業務這個業務繁雜是那我覺得對國家做這些事情非常有意義而且你有做出成績來但是當然不可能說100分那我覺得你大概有80分左右所以希望你繼續努力謝謝委員先請教一下離岸風電區塊開發這兩天這個媒體有很多的報導這個台電說綠電"},{"start":9263.159,"end":9267.354,"text":"發展太慢、勾引不足那到底是什麼原因他會這樣說?"},{"start":9269.176,"end":9269.596,"text":"為什麼他會這樣說?"},{"start":9299.836,"end":9324.384,"text":"所以他對我們趕快來發展綠電他確實也有跟我們提醒這個速度上不要落後了是那個投報率啊這個綠電投報率過低所以你這個32企業32企的招標會不會因為這樣子延後這個這開發商聯名跟你陳情嗎是所以這個RR說這個投報率低於4"},{"start":9325.495,"end":9347.415,"text":"所以他們認為說這個是不是投標了,但是是不是不要那麼早決標,到年底再決定,你們目前的決策呢?是,我們確實收到他們的這個來文,那這個部分我們會內部討論一下,我們也會跟廠商來溝通所以加上3之1期,3之1期也有很多的問題"},{"start":9349.113,"end":9352.276,"text":"那預計到2026、2027才會併網那三四二期也是2028、2029那如果這個併網期程目前的規劃有沒有改變?"},{"start":9362.382,"end":9376.965,"text":"目前確實開發商跟我們提到不是在臺灣的問題是全球的問題就是這個開發商的相關的成本國外的這個利息很高讓他的資金成本、供應鏈等等所以確實都有提到這個期程的問題那我們都跟他密切來討論你會延後多久這不可測你如果延後太久並往時間延後到延後兩三年"},{"start":9390.467,"end":9400.055,"text":"那延後影響當然是對於綠電供應會有很大的這個缺口 對不對 是 那你們預估啊 這個併網期程會延後多久"},{"start":9401.253,"end":9413.283,"text":"目前我們其實會跟他們來做仔細的討論那他們有提到一個非常不可控制就是船另外就是說排船起他們如果說國際上的沒有足夠的船來安裝的話也會是一個非常重要的因素然後國際大環境也不可能瞬間變化一定要長期慢慢的這個調整嘛 對不對"},{"start":9429.415,"end":9437.882,"text":"所以這種我覺得延後兩三年有可能嗎?我們最近會密集來跟他們討論另外國產化國產化會當然一個歷練什麼會增加嘛之前我跟妳討論過了"},{"start":9442.685,"end":9466.17,"text":"國產化跟綠電的供應量增加跟國產化這個到位到底你這個要怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點沒有錯就是這個部分我們確實都會非常細膩的然後也來看國內的這個供應量到底能夠供應的量是多少然後來做這個兩方面的一個考量這個你要去權衡是都能夠雙贏對"},{"start":9468.49,"end":9469.172,"text":"中小級創新興障事業署"},{"start":9479.605,"end":9498.511,"text":"賴副總統曾經公布在去年9月打造新創雨林的生態系這是一個國政白皮書、國政的願景然後也通過亞洲矽谷3.0當然這是國會的業務我也召開這個相關的不斷說修法或者是政策必須要做調整"},{"start":9499.571,"end":9513.028,"text":"所以這個部分啊 這個中小跟新創企業組相對在部裡面的這個聲音比較小 但新創很重要我提出的修法 我希望那個 組長、副組長 你了解我的修法內容嗎?"},{"start":9515.555,"end":9518.799,"text":"我會要求你們針對這個新創創投跟新創事業每年度都要比照中小企業白皮書一樣"},{"start":9535.014,"end":9563.98,"text":"因為你現在合併成中小及輕創企業署你針對中小企業由於每年都有白皮書這是法律的規定你也按照這個中小企業白皮書的內容模式你提出創投事業及輕創事業白皮書我覺得委員這個提議是有道理的那你要做啊所以今年度你就比照中小企業白皮書今年你就把創投事業及輕創企業白皮書把它"},{"start":9565.66,"end":9566.283,"text":"把他弄一本出來"},{"start":9567.5,"end":9568.04,"text":"新創事業白皮書 何書長"},{"start":9596.923,"end":9613.148,"text":"委員長,今年越快越好。另外,AI目前的這個,如果提升台灣在AI產業的這個產值跟這個國際的話語權"},{"start":9618.605,"end":9638.191,"text":"台灣深層式AI的興起如果沒有趕上時代這個可能會造成重大的國安危機所以我們的AI的經濟產值跟AI的國際話語權必須要提高產值要提高話語權也要增加這牽涉到什麼AI模型的建立有幾個階段"},{"start":9639.98,"end":9664.805,"text":"包括預先訓練、落地的微調、推論的應用這部分我想這個邏輯很清楚這部分你必須要經濟部、書發部跟其他的跨部會你要把這個數位轉型這個三階段AI模型建立三階段把它迅速到位"},{"start":9666.403,"end":9687.364,"text":"這部分這個經濟部有沒有什麼想法?有,其實跨部會都有在討論這個部分那目前大家覺得就左邊第一個那個Pretraining的部分大家認為這個部分因為他投入資源非常大那台灣應該不要先就講這一個部分但是對第二個跟第三個部分"},{"start":9688.285,"end":9688.865,"text":"是現在臺灣確實也有在發展的部分"},{"start":9705.731,"end":9715.798,"text":"需要有這個應用領域的專業的技能這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法?對,我們經濟部來講我們其實每個禮拜的業務會報都有一個專門的時間討論這個議題但是Fight tuning的這個訓練成本很高啊Fight tuning的部分市長有沒有什麼怎麼樣把這個成本過高的問題來降低?"},{"start":9732.754,"end":9758.264,"text":"目前國科會這邊是有國際的這個比較開放是Lama2的這樣的一個軟體來做相關的training然後另外有一個中文的資料庫的系統在做如何全方位的把AI這個模型的AI模型的這個微調訓練成本把它降低你才能普及化是對不對才能各行各地都能運用這個如果你沒有這個"},{"start":9759.304,"end":9763.953,"text":"各行各地普及應用的話會變成國安危機跟其他國家我們就趕不上"},{"start":9765.225,"end":9793.119,"text":"所以這部分我覺得這個AI未來這個怎麼樣的產值能夠提高怎麼樣影響用我們的現在優勢能不能增加國際化學權這個經濟部要很重視是有有我們覺得這是臺灣已經有很好的AI晶片了然後再往前推AI的設計然後另外怎麼樣到各行各業AI的應用這個部分那確實臺灣也很有機會把它做好因為本行已經算是資深了"},{"start":9794.119,"end":9795.099,"text":"接下來我們請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":9827.812,"end":9854.002,"text":"主席好首先有請王部長來請部長王部長好常常下鄉常常碰到一些困擾的問題就是無自來水地區自來水源管的工程這裡面就牽涉到水利跟自來水公司"},{"start":9855.131,"end":9877.461,"text":"但是現在全國自來水的普及率達到95%但是你們要求的一個標準就是每一戶的要有60萬的施工成本審查的標準是以60萬以下才可以,以上不可以我認為台灣我們每個高水都很寬"},{"start":9878.641,"end":9893.219,"text":"尤其現在普及到95%沒有裝自來水的地區﹐我們就叫偏遠的地區﹐也比較落後的地區﹐即使這個是水資源含有最重要的地區﹐他們要裝自來水都這樣補了這60萬、50萬人"},{"start":9898.005,"end":9923.707,"text":"我覺得這個要照顧民生都要一樣那是給你提供水源的地方竟然裝不到自來水讓你這裡多錢人都在用所以我好幾年我一直在拜託要求那大概再開8個月台灣的自來水大概普及率就會很高我覺得這個非常重要所以我今天來這邊特別拜託多一點經費"},{"start":9925.589,"end":9942.122,"text":"支援給我們的水利使、給我們的自來水公司讓這個無自來水地區能馬上把它慢慢的一直把自來水的普及率普及出來你好好拜託,你關係很好到行政院會拿到很多的獎勵,這樣有困難嗎?"},{"start":9944.103,"end":9952.473,"text":"跟委員報告因為我個人也覺得這個事情要用更好的想像所以兩個方向一個就是水利署這邊也去把這個60萬的部分拉高來提高這個門檻"},{"start":9958.92,"end":9963.541,"text":"但是也跟委員講有一些地方因為他很善他要的經費真的遠遠高出60萬甚至80萬那我請署長說去想一些聰明的方法比如說有沒有一些淨水設施因為我們大旱的時候有一些廠商已經會做淨水設施那有沒有可能這些淨水設施就近那這個經費相對也比較可惜那可以讓更多的戶數來做那他們現在正在評估"},{"start":9987.688,"end":10003.283,"text":"技術的部分、可行性的部分、經費的部分我覺得這個是不是可以更加快來解決這個偏遠地區的無自來水的問題這個方式我贊成因為我以前就提出了要用科技方法來解決偏遠的地區"},{"start":10004.404,"end":10024.145,"text":"在那邊你淨水、瀝水的功能做好打地下水出來給他們但是已經講了3、4年了、4、5年了啦這個早期我某個淨水、瀝水我大概了解這些我們要怎麼來做可以省了很多的成本我會希望你趕快這樣子去做好不好"},{"start":10025.572,"end":10028.374,"text":"委員建議的那個方向今天部長在今年的1月初的時候就找我們"},{"start":10047.529,"end":10047.749,"text":"請回座"},{"start":10061.352,"end":10072.181,"text":"大家都討論電價的上漲大家也不曉得幅度有多少我查了一下我看你這個上漲電價留給國民黨來執政馬英九執政的時間一共漲了40.65%蔡英文當總統的話"},{"start":10081.349,"end":10101.557,"text":"是22.4% 啊你說你們慢慢漲叫做消波制防止我們的通貨膨脹 喔 命很高企的 實在 這樣快點炒到沒法去 休一次你大概漲現在要漲幾% 工業用電 高鐵要用電 大副用電 你告訴我我就知道了"},{"start":10102.355,"end":10118.607,"text":"目前他們工作相組其實正在就各種的方向正在討論目前還沒有定案還沒漲價疫情就把這個漲價消息放出去大家都以為漲得很高你在試水文"},{"start":10119.568,"end":10134.697,"text":"所以這個比例可以看出來不是國民黨時代長假你們以前都罵國民黨長假看等國民黨執政再來給他長繼續動長就會繼續執政你看法怎麼樣?要不要長?兩套的標準再來有一個問題可能會很嚴重未來會不會缺電?"},{"start":10150.011,"end":10178.894,"text":"不會啦,我們非常努力在做這個事情很有自信現在我看了一個那個特斯拉的執行長叫做馬斯克世界最有錢的人他說現在是缺晶片未來是缺電晶片的話AAI的這些晶片是出電的怪獸你覺得不重要人家是幾十年以後不是缺晶片就是缺電啦"},{"start":10179.975,"end":10186.634,"text":"你怎麼來應付這個問題?你們有沒有去考慮?這個可能是一個消息但是也是代表著一個警訊"},{"start":10192.423,"end":10213.295,"text":"這個部份是兩個部份因為現在目前在這個AI訓練的部份確實都是美國這幾個大公司那他們這個在訓練階段真的是用非常多的電訓練的話是大概不用什麼你不要把我騙你實體因為AI你生產的電才要出的大是那個時候的用電最大"},{"start":10213.835,"end":10214.996,"text":"我看了我們幾個工業會工商總會還是工業總會提出的一個產業報告裡面"},{"start":10242.266,"end":10258.292,"text":"幾乎六大工業總會都希望核能、核能產能延運那新國會準備要解套這個問題而執政黨是把核能當作行出牌,你的看法要不要延運?"},{"start":10259.632,"end":10268.805,"text":"您要告訴我一件事嗎?這個可能要不要演繹?您不是在這裡拍謝貢為了你們政策辯論現在是對著我們現實面臨的實際的問題有沒有希望、原因?"},{"start":10274.975,"end":10294.759,"text":"第一個當然在這個裡面委員有一些對演繹的提案但是這個法律的提案你法律的提案什麼不是國會裡面就是說不會把男的不能生孩子這個不能改變的話其他都可以改變你們也常常在改變你要不要"},{"start":10296.185,"end":10306.074,"text":"市商核電就幾個面向所以我報告也有提到一個是法律面最重要是核能安全那要有核安會來審查還有核廢電的問題我現在只問你如果缺電的話要不要研議啦你告訴我一下才知道啦"},{"start":10314.682,"end":10320.867,"text":"我看你左右為難這個是兩兩兩件事然後我們我們問的是一件事你要熱解我們對電力的攻擊齁目前都有沒有要支持核電廠研議我只問了重心點的問題"},{"start":10329.198,"end":10347.916,"text":"核電廠研議其實第一個問題就是安全的問題第二個是大家要有共識阿大家如果有共識的你們會不會反對這些的大前提如果都能夠解決那當然是一個所以表示有共識你們不反對了那核電的繩子牌就要被打破了對不對"},{"start":10349.358,"end":10372.31,"text":"我有講喔,其實核電品要是安全的問題很難為的回答你現在兩年幾十年把國家投資的核電廠將近五千億你們也把它擺在那邊把它報廢掉好,現在原來演藝要怎麼樣總經理你要不要回答一下還是能演幾場我看到你們碰到核電廠要不會演藝都閃來閃去啊"},{"start":10376.751,"end":10397.572,"text":"總經理,那個兩個核電廠一年幫你們賺400億喔,你要怎麼去解決這個問題?核電廠原理,純如剛才部長講的,它是一個安全問題,這些都必須要先克服。難怪你會繼續當總經理,你也很優秀。我跟你講,表示態度。"},{"start":10398.935,"end":10420.834,"text":"萬一缺電萬一需要核能廠你不要說那個在野黨把這個打破以前你們從來就是反對核能發電核能發電都利冷這裡面五個工會的理事長都一直要求考慮核電廠要不要延運能把定位降低一下"},{"start":10422.055,"end":10429.379,"text":"您現在剛才這個問題都不跟我說,要國民黨往往,最大的在野黨往往,要趕你們擦屁股,要看你們態度。"},{"start":10431.055,"end":10456.438,"text":"如果你們不敢講說支持核電廠研議我相信不要給他通過最好保持著民進黨執政的獨立性不要閃來閃去因為我相信啦缺電的情形核電廠不研議缺電的情形會滿臨終的不可以邊來邊去私底下我都有去探聽過"},{"start":10458.834,"end":10479.285,"text":"台電苦不堪言而已,主席站起來我要下台了,謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言好,謝謝召委,請王部長"},{"start":10485.08,"end":10509.937,"text":"部長辛苦了 首先還是要先謝謝院長部長其實大林埔千村這個案件的大力支持不好做的工作不過這也是對鄉親部也是對整個歷史做一個負責那我還覺得就是執政團隊願意全力來促成我還是表達就當地的這個民意代表來說表達感謝那現在開始在進行相關的程序了2月29到5月16預定要辦63場的一個議員調查"},{"start":10513.639,"end":10518.681,"text":"最高達九成六的民眾是這個在進行當中那部裡面跟市府預定什麼時候把它完成然後接下來的下一步呢"},{"start":10535.813,"end":10557.371,"text":"這個部分有關於調查的部分跟市府已經達成共識會在6月底前會辦完6月底前會完成所有的調查那如果依照這樣的比例來說的話很有可能是相當高的一個比例那這個完成之後的下一步呢因為這大概6600位是針對有房有地的有地的或有房的那接下來的部分呢"},{"start":10558.132,"end":10573.288,"text":"對,那這一部分呢,市府目前的規劃就是全部都會做醫院調查,調查完以後就有房有地或無房無地的部分通通都會做所以其他的部分也會完成,運營什麼時候來把它全部完成?就是6月底全數完成,包括無房無地也在6月底全數完成?是是是"},{"start":10575.13,"end":10576.231,"text":"接下來我想請問一下部長"},{"start":10604.991,"end":10610.848,"text":"那部長除了一些的規劃費用以外還有沒有其他的一些比較重要的費用那預定怎麼來使用這些經費"},{"start":10613.497,"end":10638.455,"text":"向委員報告,我們編列的800億的搬遷費裡面大概有700多億是在723億對,是那這一部分包括還有一些我們所謂的人員搬遷這些會在其他項裡面那剛剛委員有說明的部分700多億的部分就是在我們人員的土地的補償建物的補償等等的這一些會佔的最大宗"},{"start":10638.895,"end":10642.877,"text":"這跟部長說明一下 其實土地跟整個建物大概就佔了9393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":10667.29,"end":10685.896,"text":"我也希望部長繼續再努力啦好嗎是是那這個都有吧委員的意見反應跟高雄市政府溝通的時候都有提到好我也希望部長持續來協助啦讓整件事情很不好做的一件工作但是如果能夠順利的完成我相信對整個鄉親對國家都是一件好事情啦是"},{"start":10686.496,"end":10703.921,"text":"好那接下來剩一點時間我再問一下台堂的問題其實這件事情其實從3月8號專家會議出來之後看得出來檢驗室的部分正常大概有3個但是有4個異常了齁那整個調查結果裡面幾乎也排除掉不管是從租吃到屠宰到販售大概都排除風險那檢驗階段"},{"start":10705.842,"end":10732.751,"text":"有可能啦 有可能會有些狀況所以如果部長從這邊來看起來台堂應該相對是安全沒有問題的沒有錯 台堂是很安全的事對 那 那 那但是檢驗室那邊當然他要去做一些釐清的那我們看到這10年啦大概租資的台堂啦特別台堂是國營事業我也不認為台堂有什麼樣刻意去違法的空間牟利又不是賺錢又不是放到自己的口袋毫無可言就是說領公務員的薪水的他去做這事情是毫無效益更何況還可能"},{"start":10733.471,"end":10760.146,"text":"更貴的而且是更不可能對所以說我覺得這件事情其實很詭異就是他其實檢驗到台糖是沒有什麼動機沒有什麼東西所以但是結論上面是台糖的安心豚17年我自己也都有在買台糖的豬肉因為我信任台糖的品質上的沒錯是但是我看到這個其實損失了5128萬甚至今天昭惟也有提到還有很多名譽上的損失甚至很多人的害怕到現在可能有的信則信不信則恨不信這個部分"},{"start":10763.737,"end":10767.238,"text":"後續會有什麼樣的動作嗎?包括未來怎麼樣去確保這樣的事情再次的發生?是 那這個部分我們確實有在討論怎麼樣來跟地方來就非常異常的這種情形的通報機制要不要做一個特別的設計那這個部分會在院的階層會去討論"},{"start":10783.683,"end":10808.146,"text":"所以未來會讓這個通報更謹慎一些當然確實我們要確保國人的食安的安全但是在一旦出來任何訊息萬一有落差的時候像後來被定調成是個案的時候台糖是安全的時候但是對台糖的傷害其實就整個造成那台糖還是國營事業當然是國家人民那是有點損失但是一般的豬農可能就承受不起任何一家豬農萬一發生這樣的狀況恐怕是承受不起的"},{"start":10808.546,"end":10833.734,"text":"所以在制度上面應該去建立一套更完整的一個機制確保食安安全但是也確保大家的這個出來的東西是不會傷及到像台堂我感覺他有點冤啦過年期間所有人員加班忙碌然後退貨等等然後到現在還在受損我認為我聽起來部長跟台堂這邊好像目前並沒有打算走司法的途徑是嗎"},{"start":10835.158,"end":10858.376,"text":"台糖他們有另外請律師的顧問再評估那對台糖來講就像委員講的恢復台糖的信譽大家來多多買台糖的豬肉我想這個是目前短期大家可以信譽的恢復是一件重要的事情趕快讓消費者恢復信譽但是另外是防止未來這樣的事情再次的發生那我認為這是一件重要的事情"},{"start":10861.038,"end":10880.937,"text":"對,機制如果能夠處理起來當然是一種方法但司法也是另外一種方法但是重點是能夠預防未來這樣事情發生我認為都是好的方法那我還是要問一下因為前兩天我看到盧秀燕市長在被議會質詢的時候他認為說這個是台堂個案才有啊台堂要自己努力去找顯然他認為是台堂要自己想辦法"},{"start":10881.758,"end":10900.695,"text":"部長認同這樣的說法嗎?事實上如果委員知道那一陣子甚至過年前開始到過年的期間臺堂同仁都加班把這個市面上所有同批的都幫他找出來甚至不同批的也找出來去驗等等的那臺堂這個就是這樣的一個單一的檢驗有這樣問題臺堂其實是費了非常大的力氣來自證我臺堂是安全的"},{"start":10907.381,"end":10921.694,"text":"所以部長覺得盧市長這樣講法其實並不公允對台糖其實是還蠻傷害的還蠻傷的嘛其實這樣也不公平啦齁因為從我們專家會來看台糖的部分幾乎盡了最大努力幾乎看起來是排除掉各種風險"},{"start":10924.437,"end":10949.378,"text":"對,台湯這麼重視自己的信譽而且有辦法這樣做,不惜成本的這樣做其實是花了非常多力氣來讓大家安心所以整個調查結果其實幾乎都排除掉台湯本身的風險但是檢驗階段反倒檢驗階段有一些不確定性到底是不是檢驗出問題沒有人敢確保所以當盧市長還把這個問題丟給台湯我認為其實是不公允的啦對台湯也是不公平的"},{"start":10949.938,"end":10975.956,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法吧?是,我們希望臺堂大家現在可以很確認他是一個非常安全的生產的豬肉我認為從事政治工作應該都要公允去處理我看到今天的這個臺中市的衛生局長也被質詢問到了他認為未來他也鬆口怎麼樣減少可以精進做法包括減少食安爭議就是遇到異常跟中央通報包括去追溯"},{"start":10976.476,"end":10976.576,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":11002.676,"end":11022.524,"text":"對,我覺得這個最近就是我們衛福部會來跟地方怎麼樣更有效率的對這種非常特別的異常狀況怎麼樣有效的來聯繫所以當台中市的衛生局長都在比較鬆口、比較軟化的時候我其實覺得盧秀燕市長其實在這件事情上可以還台堂一個公道不需要用這麼嚴厲的態度來全部丟給台堂我反而覺得"},{"start":11025.425,"end":11047.419,"text":"在這件事情上面台湯其實已經盡了最大的努力盧市長還把慈恩丟給台湯我認為其實不公允的那我們來看一下接下來衛福部也開始做一些通報程序的改變這個大概在程序上經濟部會不會請衛福部也加快來完成這樣的一個修改內部的一個法規的一個修改會會我們會預定多久可以完成這個應該很快衛福部就會很快來做我們希望部長加快跟衛福部長聯繫好不好這樣事情盡快完成的話"},{"start":11054.804,"end":11058.586,"text":"我先宣告一下我們中午就不休息一直到詢答結束為止接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":11085.749,"end":11087.014,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是邀請部長來請部長"},{"start":11096.27,"end":11115.004,"text":"部長最近這幾天台灣股市上兩萬點那台積電衝到了將近800點這個我想是全民都很振奮的消息但是我們在關心這一個台積電的一個先進的製程"},{"start":11115.524,"end":11137.126,"text":"是讓我們知道整個半導體的產業還有成熟製程而且成熟製程過去也是台灣的很強項尤其在全世界在缺這個車用晶片的時候台灣是可以說是給全世界的車廠很大的幫忙當時候全世界的需要這些晶片的都來台灣這邊來洽詢這個車用晶片"},{"start":11139.548,"end":11156.064,"text":"但是我們也在於我在上一個會期事實上就有說這個成熟製程那中國的這個鴻海布局之下我們擔心的是他們未來中國積極的擴張成熟製程未來會用以"},{"start":11156.724,"end":11178.86,"text":"以量來制價的方式然後讓整個全世界的這個成熟製程的一個市場被中國又用這種銷價競爭用惡性補貼的方式來打壓我們的一個成熟製程那我想部長那這幾個月來我們部理針對這樣的一個情況我們有怎樣的一個因應措施嗎?"},{"start":11179.747,"end":11179.787,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":11196.208,"end":11221.824,"text":"的設計商兩個一起來做RD的研發雖然他可能甚至是在40奈米、55奈米都有可能可是因為那個特殊的製程呢他就是很特定化那這個就不容易被取代所以我們這個部分其實我們的廠商也知道就是要盡量朝特殊的製程來做而不是那一種通用品的晶片通用品非常有可能中國大陸會用這個鴻海政策那個低價的政策來"},{"start":11225.646,"end":11225.666,"text":"．述"},{"start":11242.21,"end":11265.384,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11265.504,"end":11266.665,"text":"台灣金創計劃指這個晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案我們是規劃10年要用3000億的輔導跟投資我們的具體作為是怎樣?"},{"start":11289.143,"end":11293.185,"text":"這個部分在經濟部因為不同部會有做法那經濟部的部分有幾個大項包括這個IC設計的部分我們怎麼樣讓國內的IC設計要嘛有的從這個比如說原來他只會做28奈米那讓他往前進的十幾奈米推進那另外一個部分就是應用面他可以多應用在"},{"start":11312.253,"end":11312.273,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":11328.706,"end":11357.2,"text":"那美國事實上針對我們剛才講的這個總統美國最近也不斷的有新聞會出來包括美國商務部長這個雷蒙多也說針對好像電信、汽車、國防供應鏈會使用中國製的成熟製程晶片要重啟調查那美國採取這樣的一個態度那我們台灣如果現在這個成熟製程裡面會不會有"},{"start":11358.42,"end":11384.415,"text":"這是車頭製程我們進入到了中國供應鏈那未來變成在美國重啟調查的對象然後我們台灣的廠商也進入到了這個被調查對象嗎應該是不會目前的這個部分就是看得非常明顯我想我們產業很清楚也就是說你在台灣設計你在台灣製造的話你賣給美國不管是車商、通訊或軍用的話都是安全的"},{"start":11385.696,"end":11390.96,"text":"對,那這個部分對台灣就是一個非常好的長期的上進。那我會不會說我又有販賣到中國,然後又要賣到美國?那個沒有關係,那個是我們的販賣,那個沒有問題。販賣沒有問題,但是在製造的一個過程。我想要強調就是說,"},{"start":11405.011,"end":11426.927,"text":"市長賴清德他在這幾個月來都說台灣必須要建立所謂信賴的產業就是我們應該要跟世界的一個民主同盟然後我們應該要針對這樣的一個產業鏈我們有一個自我保護而不會讓中國利用他們滲透的方式而且他們會用很多一些我剛剛講的就是說去惡意取得或者是用低價的銷價競爭"},{"start":11428.268,"end":11446.749,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11446.749,"end":11446.929,"text":"議員：邀請經濟部部長列席"},{"start":11471.766,"end":11471.786,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":11490.044,"end":11505.079,"text":"那他們也相信我們在這一塊我們會堅守我們的立場我想這個是不是更重要是我想這應該經濟部要去積極的有有其實我們跟廠商在溝通的時候廠商其實也很知道這樣的一個國際的趨勢好那再下一個齁"},{"start":11505.78,"end":11528.889,"text":"那下一個是要跟部長討論這個功夫法的問題那我們功夫法事實上就是要輔導這些工廠他們可以走向合法那我們已經功夫法上路也已經將近快要4年了那這4年來事實上我跟這些廠商常常都聚在一起但是他們確實在功夫法的適用上遇到很大的一個挫折"},{"start":11529.349,"end":11545.267,"text":"那現在我指的這個挫折勒,就是說你現在規定隔離綠帶要1.5公尺那但是這個隔離綠帶,我相信部長你是想下鄉會看啦他們過去是違法的工廠,啊他們就沒辦法,他們整個工廠就棄好了"},{"start":11546.749,"end":11564.343,"text":"議員："},{"start":11565.155,"end":11589.152,"text":"那對於他們來說這是一個不可能做到的事所以他們現在就只能納管之後然後就只能按兵不動然後每年是繳納管費他們也沒辦法再進一步的作為就是卡在這樣的一個隔離綠帶那部長我們對上隔離綠帶跟功夫法產生的這樣沒辦法輔導他們合法這件事情產生的漢格應該沒有辦法有一個"},{"start":11590.092,"end":11612.977,"text":"在進一步的作法嗎?其實這個部分有非常多的討論那廠商到需要留這個1.5米的時候是他要去土地合法那土地合法的時候他其實整個建築都要一起去看他這個建築有沒有符合相關的建築法規那我們隔離地帶其實在過往跟現在有很大的改變說第一個他不需要先拆"},{"start":11613.897,"end":11638.264,"text":"他是在這個建築的時候被審的時候一起來審而不是說先猜一次再猜第二次對但是部長你知道他們在審的過程他們就得要投入成本所以他們一定會預先預判到說我未來的下一步我會遇到什麼困難所以他們知道一旦我要走到合法我因為隔離綠帶我就沒辦法走到合法這一步他是不會去走的"},{"start":11638.604,"end":11643.048,"text":"但是我們這個部分我們其實非常願意用個案來告訴大家像有一些已經解決這個問題的部分的案例成功的案例讓大家知道可能有幾種模式是可以克服這個問題的那這個其實我們也非常願意到我會再開幾個協調會或是類似公聽會我們希望可以實質上讓這一些工廠他們走向合法"},{"start":11666.946,"end":11667.386,"text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":11697.853,"end":11698.393,"text":"市政情報部長市政部長"},{"start":11715.539,"end":11730.839,"text":"會不會缺電所以我們台電有很中長期的計畫在增加電源來供我們產業的需要是所以對於缺不缺電對產業來說對人民來說都非常的重要那但是我們也看到了接下來"},{"start":11732.083,"end":11753.037,"text":"我剛講的不管是晶圓廠或者是現在所謂工商大佬都在對於將來我看到你們的報告裡面將來的AI時代其實他會是一個吃電的怪獸而現在對於台積電接下去在台灣可能還有更多的擴廠計畫我們未來的能源配置就是我問的未來會不會缺電"},{"start":11755.018,"end":11756.319,"text":"所以我們這幾年為什麼這麼多再新增電廠其實我們都是事先跟廠商做溝通瞭解他們的用電需求來增加新的電源"},{"start":11771.611,"end":11787.746,"text":"我來自臺北市,我們當時就有發生臺北市東區門戶計畫的新建案,申請不到足夠的相關的它的容量臺電是說我有電,但我運不進來,所以要蓋變電所那現在你的電夠不夠,又不運得進來"},{"start":11790.655,"end":11810.103,"text":"內湖的這個部分委員應該很清楚 這個跟全台灣的電不一樣 這個就是缺少那個高壓變電所的部分 讓電送到這個東北內湖的部分所以除了缺不缺電 還有電能不能送到 這就是台電很重要的任務 不能拖了20年還在討論同一件事啊"},{"start":11811.484,"end":11826.141,"text":"所以現在台北市政府終於讓我們可以開始來蓋了所以現在正在蓋所以台電有兩個任務第一個要把電足額的送到相關的產業不能讓它受到影響第二個是我們現在的虧損"},{"start":11827.442,"end":11844.276,"text":"雖然是全民買單也有政策上的目標但是一樣未來的這些所謂高科技所謂的智慧AI時代將來這個吃電怪獸廠商可能也要想一想怎麼樣讓他們能夠在能源的配置上面要做出一些貢獻吧"},{"start":11845.678,"end":11859.812,"text":"不能單單靠政府或者是全民幫大家幫他們一起來處理我最近有看到一些民間的企業他們已經開始自主發展所謂的輕能發電也希望能夠得到經濟部的支持"},{"start":11861.035,"end":11881.41,"text":"院長、部長都應該好好地來想想這些廠商他們是不是在他的院區裡面、廠區裡面就可以自己有自己的發電系統?部長覺得咧?如果他們願意這樣做,我們都非常贊成。你看到的Open AI他們已經蓋晶圓廠的同時,他們也要在裡面做所謂的小型的合融合的發電。"},{"start":11882.891,"end":11910.724,"text":"我想核能在臺灣還是一個爭議的話題但是這是一個可以考慮讓民眾不用擔負這些大廠他們自己需要的用電這才是我覺得將來可以可長可久的相關的方向廠商如果會願意自備電源的話我們是都非常樂意所以部長我覺得這個是將來政策上面也要採取相關鼓勵的措施所以臺灣不能沒有台積電但是臺灣也不能只有台積電"},{"start":11912.244,"end":11938.856,"text":"臺積電是臺灣的護國神山但是同樣的相關的能源他們也應該要跟我們大家一起來承擔相關的責任所以重點是如果可能有廠商在廠區裡面做發電我覺得這是政府應該要鼓勵的第二個就是能源政策我希望部長不管怎麼樣在您看守的期間我們希望對未來剛剛講的這些配置上面的用電的規劃我覺得現在就要提出未來10年到20年的計畫"},{"start":11940.478,"end":11953.752,"text":"尤其是2025如果真的有所謂的非核家園你馬上撿的7%要從哪裡補回來這個也需要向立法院來報告我希望兩個禮拜之內給我一個完整的相關電力配置的報告"},{"start":11964.396,"end":11983.637,"text":"呃還是請一下委員齁上台下台的時候記得跟主席台鞠躬齁這是禮貌來接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言來主席謝謝麻煩請王部長來請部長"},{"start":11991.009,"end":12014.327,"text":"部長直接請教這次蘇丹紅非法添加物的事件很多人見紙就說是這個不良廠商非法廠商他一個地址可以有10家公司一個地址可以有5家公司在那裡面做登記那資本額從20萬到50萬不一樣那但是到最後他變大家覺得說這就空頭公司嘛"},{"start":12014.727,"end":12032.909,"text":"一家進口被衛福部查到之後他馬上再換另外一家可能在此同意申請那他就拼那個抽查率啊沒被抽到也都可以讓你擺啊那源頭就在於是說這些空頭公司、空殼公司啊登記那麼多那我們經濟部商業司有沒有什麼樣的防弊機制"},{"start":12034.4,"end":12057.685,"text":"這個部分,衛福部給我們資料,我們現在都會再查只要任何一個相同,譬如說地址相同、負責人相同、公司相同只要任何一個相同,我們就可以回辦我們從過去黑心快篩,也有這樣的情況發生,它引申民宅我們看那個Google那個限地,它明明就是一個民宅,三樓半的套廳處但它裡面篩了十幾家公司"},{"start":12058.385,"end":12074.982,"text":"那登記人而且那些股東成分或是董事長相關都是親屬關係親屬關係也許比較難直接就追查出來但是同一個地址有那麼多公司又是民財的部分這應該馬上就可以調資料我們到底現在商業是還有多少這樣的公司"},{"start":12078.564,"end":12099.135,"text":"第一個公司的地址要登記在哪裡目前各國也都一樣沒有特別說在公司登記的時候說要要求只能在什麼地方才可以登記公司但我們是不是應該有示警機制或是說去了解一下這樣的一個公司還是說你商業室就只是大家來我登記登記完之後就放著"},{"start":12099.835,"end":12122.325,"text":"我沒有任何的追蹤管考機制從過去的黑心快篩到現在的這個蘇丹紅如果說能夠多一點示警的話我常常強調很多時候對我們不要以小人之心度君子之腹但有些時候必要的把關是應該的那在這件事情上面其實就很明顯大家覺得說很離譜啊"},{"start":12124.458,"end":12148.351,"text":"跟委員報告,如果假設今天這麼多的公司登記,好幾十萬家那如果沒有提到說這個可能有嫌疑的話事實上商業單位不會知道要怎麼去查這個東西那能不能,好那我先請教我們現在Data Base裡面有沒有譬如說同一個地址裡面有至少超過5家公司以上在同一個地址那這一些要不要主動先去了解一下"},{"start":12150.222,"end":12153.083,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實在公司登記階段他要登記在這個地址他就要附一些證明文件"},{"start":12171.272,"end":12199.869,"text":"那剛才委員提到說一個地址裡面有非常多的公司它的狀況非常多那我們必須去看這些哪些是合法哪些不合法比如說現在很多的這種小企業或是新創企業它其實一張桌子一個電腦對所以本席剛剛已經開宗明先強調說它不是一般的商辦大樓我當然了解有一些商辦大樓它可能一次裡面會有很多家公司它可能譬如說它新創公司他們就在同一個會議室share那個辦公空間這本席了解"},{"start":12201.01,"end":12220.892,"text":"但是那比較屬於是商辦大樓嘛那我現在講是說你們應該可以去調個資料這非常快而且這絕對不用成本我們只要去了解是說有哪些地址他有重複比如說5家以上都在同一個地址再去清查人工比對是說這些地址到底是民宅還是商辦大樓還是一般的公司"},{"start":12221.873,"end":12235.318,"text":"這做不到嗎?可以跟委員報告那什麼時候可以做?我們其實在現在衛福部給我們的名單裡面我們去比對我們這幾家有問題的我們都已經去把它抓出來那剛才也講就是說現在公司登記跟"},{"start":12236.383,"end":12263.002,"text":"公司登記跟商業登記的加速非常多所以我們一定是從有問題的公司這邊去救他的負責人甚至是說影響什麼比較廣比如說食品進口業因為現在大家看到可能食品進口業相關這個是比較影響廣大的能不能先從這一些類型先去做那個跟委員報告齁我們確實是從食品進口因為我們現在是什麼時候能夠做出來什麼時候能夠清查出來什麼時候能夠再找出不要再有下一個蘇丹紅這樣的廠商"},{"start":12264.451,"end":12288.072,"text":"我們比對的名單從衛福部那邊找到有進口這些辣椒粉的這些名單我們已經提供給衛福部了我們其實禮拜六禮拜天那天兩天都已經加班把這個名單比對出來了部長來來來部長還是要請您是部長本期間花了是4分多鐘時間就主要跟您講的是說我們其實有更多的作為可以更積極的去預防"},{"start":12289.451,"end":12314.882,"text":"部會是畫部會的合作好不好?對是沒有錯我只用一分鐘的時間我再請教因為現在可能電價的部分馬上就會漲價了看起來是漲價勢在必行但有沒有考慮過有沒有開源節流的部分本席先比對了今天的這個台電的預算書2023年到2024年用人成本人事費用增加多少?部長手邊有沒有資料?這個有點細"},{"start":12317.379,"end":12337.754,"text":"用人費用有點細這個細節可能要看那個資料才會知道旅猜費用有多少增加猜旅費用那個委員是不是我請台電會後再給您資料好不好其實這不用因為本期其實已經查完了嘛我只是想要知道是說為什麼會增加那麼多的用人費用跟猜旅費用"},{"start":12338.659,"end":12366.955,"text":"用人費用增加主要是因為最近這幾年我們的那個 增加多少錢 退休潮很高不是啊 你不是退休金沒有增加 退休金沒有增加太多啊 最主要是薪資的部分啊增加了2023年到2024年 這預算書增加了17億的用人費用是不是 退休金的那個 不止退休金啦 你不用一直扯退休金 是 它是整體的用人費用連薪資都增加了 理財費用增加了多少"},{"start":12368.567,"end":12391.505,"text":"旅運費增加了5億元旅運費可能有包括說國內國外出差但是怎麼會增加5億元本期要提出來是講是說有沒有開源跟節流就是說你現在在做電價的上漲的時候當然會直接轉嫁到民生的成本但另外一部分我們有沒有做節流"},{"start":12392.366,"end":12396.154,"text":"為什麼會我們的用人費用也大增為什麼我們的旅餐費用也大增而且這都比2023年成長了那麼多"},{"start":12400.281,"end":12426.946,"text":"這個沒有問題,這個都可以提相關新聞資料給那個財務委員、財務委員、黃委員、主席財務部長,我先要要求你先把沒有問題這句話收回並且給本席一個書面報告當然尊重主席,但是我說要求經濟部下午給本席一個書面報告好好說明為什麼會用人費用跟旅運費用增加那麼多本席會持續追這個議題,好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":12430.08,"end":12430.62,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":12465.89,"end":12494.476,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請經濟部部長來請問部長部長好其實國家發展力能我們都很支持那如果說在特定的任務下面從我們經濟部有實質控制的公司去成立公司協助推動國家的政策這個方向我其實公開說過很多次我是支持的"},{"start":12495.305,"end":12524.76,"text":"但在國營事業用這些人的時候有一個重點那個重點是用人為財我們用專業的可以做事的而不是拿國營事業來進行政治酬庸這樣子的觀念部長你認同吧?我贊成是你認同嗎?是但我就看不懂台研立了這家公司成立了以後本來百分之百是台研的吧?"},{"start":12526.328,"end":12543.706,"text":"接下來用人實際上面的狀況包括了第一任的董事長陳其韻那您在上一屆國會的時候相關的案件你們已經已給剪掉了是到接下來任用了吳榮輝嘉義縣的前副縣長"},{"start":12545.912,"end":12572.028,"text":"這個到底是用人為財還是在醜用我相信社會有一把尺但我現在更關心的是什麼我更關心的事情是我們為了推動公共政策為了執行國家的政策好不容易成立了一家公司有沒有被特定的派系或是權貴把持的現象我接下來秀這張圖給部長看"},{"start":12574.369,"end":12599.707,"text":"去年部長在回答臺灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員的質詢的時候您說到您當現任臺研的總經理吳博新你幫他說我幫他澄清說他沒有在立洋下面任職過我相關的新聞跟新聞稿我全部都看過你說的沒有錯但大家在質疑的是什麼大家在質疑的是他是憑什麼憑什麼對這個業務"},{"start":12603.536,"end":12625.696,"text":"這不懂也不熟 可以做到台研綠能的總經理 大家找了半天 原來發現他是我們綠洋集團 英企的綠洋集團 包括了小谷 谷聖輝 包括了陳文宏 他們所把持集團的下包商 現在做到了台研綠能的總經理"},{"start":12627.145,"end":12644.537,"text":"結果他當總經理以後啊總經理裡面的特助任用的是誰啊任用的就是陳文宏的兄弟啊陳文榮啊他的陳家麗陽集團啊已經正式入駐了台言綠能啊這件事情部長您清楚嗎"},{"start":12647.864,"end":12672.374,"text":"過往在委員在要我們去查相關台顏綠能的名股的時候有做一些的調查這樣的狀況您了解了嗎?您覺得應該要繼續容忍下去嗎?委員這一張圖提到這個吳國欽跟可我先不講吳國欽的部分剛我還沒有提到吳國欽現在我要跟你focus"},{"start":12673.294,"end":12691.266,"text":"是立洋集團的小谷跟陳文宏還有吳國欣的關係我還沒有提到吳國欣立洋集團的小谷陳文宏吳國欣結果吳國欣進去了以後總經理是帶的是誰帶的是陳文宏的兄弟我只請教你說這樣的狀況您了解不了解"},{"start":12692.332,"end":12699.196,"text":"因為我就是看到委員這個圖因為這個的可危跟那個可危不一樣委員這兩個是不同的可危我知道我現在就沒有提到吳國欽嘛我從頭到尾剛好跟你提到吳國欽三個字嘛至於委員在講之前的這個相關的這個股東的部分那委員也知道我們也送檢調來瞭解這個狀況了"},{"start":12715.117,"end":12726.045,"text":"我剛也說了嘛,你把陳秦日壽剪掉這個我都OK啦但我只希望你針對問題回答我現在做具體的一件事情你知不知道台言綠能去年虧了多少錢是有虧損你知不知道虧了多少錢因為他的虧損是因為他的工程費還沒有拿到這個我們一樣一樣來嘛你知不知道他虧了多少錢"},{"start":12741.386,"end":12770.072,"text":"因為他是下面的下面啦吼沒有關係啦我會問問題的話我資料一定都找好了到今年二月底到今年二月底他的股東權益只剩下一億六千多萬本來是三億多嘛真知道三億多嘛所以為什麼前兩天發重訊虧損已經達到實收資本額的二分之一"},{"start":12771.853,"end":12791.465,"text":"為什麼虧損會達到10週資本額的二分之一因為去年一年虧了2.7億那時候的總經理是誰就是不願用專業的人搞權貴派系酬庸搞出來立洋集團的下下包商吳柏鑫"},{"start":12793.147,"end":12814.395,"text":"虧了2.7億我再請教部長您不熟沒有關係旁邊國營事業司的司長可以代打我都OK你知不知道走了多少人去年一年走了多少人來請司長因為部長說他不熟我問部長這麼細的問題可能對部長不公平走了多少人應該是走了大概將近有60幾位"},{"start":12816.224,"end":12838.509,"text":"編制了多少人?編制大概一百多位,不過他就有些壞,因為他的工程在承包完那個台尼嘉慶的案子以後,暫時還沒有新的案子進來。台尼嘉慶的案子齁,我已經都掌握。呆帳提列多少?人家為什麼不付錢?我們下次質詢的時候,我會繼續問。因為主席站起來啊,我要尊重主席的才是。前部長。"},{"start":12839.409,"end":12862.938,"text":"拜託市長回去幫忙了解以後我們下一次在詢答的時候內容可以更實質一點這樣可以嗎?不過我真的要跟委員講吳國欽跟委員講的那個可危完全沒關是另外一個可危這個完全對他太不公平了我就跟你說我還沒有提到吳國欽這個人嘛我是要跟委員說委員你可能要先回去澄清一下沒有關係啊我們繼續講繼續針對實質的問題回答的時候再麻煩部長先回去準備好"},{"start":12869.08,"end":12893.715,"text":"這樣可以嗎?好,可以。好,謝謝黃國昌委員。好,接下來我們請吳春成委員發言。好,主席。那個我們請部長。來,請王部長。"},{"start":12901.567,"end":12917.856,"text":"部長好。我是民眾黨的幹事長吳春成。民眾黨的兩個目標就是除弊跟新利。所以剛才我們的總召黃國昌砲火門內就是要除弊。"},{"start":12922.856,"end":12945.769,"text":"但是我要跟部長提的是心力所以部長不要太緊張我們談的是一個心力的問題那我要因為我非常關注這個高齡化社會的議題那我要請部長就是來思考長壽時代來臨經濟部的角色是什麼"},{"start":12947.409,"end":12963.957,"text":"因為我發現我們各部會都沒有準備好這個迎接長壽的這個計畫所以我今天跟部長來討論的是如何讓扶養比的分子變分母我想經濟部一定很關注這個扶養比的問題"},{"start":12967.434,"end":12990.387,"text":"問部長因為分子就是被撫養的人分母就是在工作的人口因為少子化所以工作的人口越來越小分母就越來越小因為高齡化所以分子就越來越大是不是這樣子?"},{"start":12992.469,"end":13018.215,"text":"是這樣子那預計我目前是4比1啦四個人撫養一個人那這個到2040年會變成2比1這個負擔非常沉重接下來會比較1比1然後一直發展分子會大於分母那個叫崩潰的時代臺灣整個要崩潰了請問部長這個有什麼解套現在有我們為了這事情在做什麼準備"},{"start":13020.517,"end":13045.433,"text":"確實這個是一個大的議題那很多的東亞國家也都面臨這樣的一個嚴重的議題那政府的這個部分確實應該很多的方面來解決這樣一個問題要從很多方面是其實對部長也同意這是一個嚴重的問題但是呢看起來我們都沒有沒辦法都沒有什麼很好的方法"},{"start":13046.158,"end":13056.512,"text":"那我要跟大家跟這個就是這次我不到立委員來提的就叫壯時代有一個方法就是讓分子壯起來把分子拉下來當分母"},{"start":13059.401,"end":13076.422,"text":"我們現在很大的問題就是未來長高壽的人會佔人口的一半但是我們現在政府都弱化他們那你沒辦法因為他會大於因為少子化所以這個分子一定會大於分母有一天那整個台灣就會崩潰"},{"start":13077.919,"end":13099.232,"text":"那我知道這個經濟部其實也有注意到這個問題了在鼓勵這個高齡就業就是有中小企業發展條例第36條要鼓勵企業來提高僱用中高齡及高齡者那這個我要問部長這個理由我覺得這個利益當然很好"},{"start":13101.411,"end":13110.274,"text":"但是我覺得沒有切中重點因為你這個辦法當中是鼓勵獎勵這個45歲以上的有這個租稅優惠1到150%但是部長看一下這個圖其實在45到19歲"},{"start":13122.042,"end":13128.607,"text":"台灣的勞參率有85,其實跟各國沒有太大差異50到55歲之間76.3也沒有太大差異我們真的開始落後這個各國的落後各國從55歲以上"},{"start":13140.984,"end":13157.141,"text":"我們只剩下59、60歲以上只剩下39、65歲以上只剩下9.6所以呢這個你如果按照你這個辦法大家都聘用企業都聘用45歲的啦沒有人要聘用55歲65歲的啦所以你根本沒有解決問題"},{"start":13158.615,"end":13181.015,"text":"你根本沒有解決問題所以我在這裡建議因為我知道經濟部有提出這個我們可不可以除了你45歲以上有租稅要有等距的優惠更加的獎勵是不是經濟部目前的版本是增加雇用45歲以上的租稅優惠150%可不可以再增加"},{"start":13182.656,"end":13203.006,"text":"65歲以上的租稅有離到250趴因為我們這個問題太嚴重了我們韓國30幾趴我們只有9點多趴這個問題如果按照你現在的辦法是無法解決的那這一點那個部長覺得可不可以接受謝謝委員那我們現在確實草案還在徵詢意見當中那委員這個意見我們會回去來檢討一下OK部長可以考慮我們可以來檢討一下好謝謝"},{"start":13212.807,"end":13213.327,"text":"麻煩部長請王部長"},{"start":13246.794,"end":13262.529,"text":"美國商務部的部長在12日表示美國企業已經意識到我們的晶片供應鏈過度集中於世界上少數幾個國家。部長您怎麼看美國?對美國商務部長的發言有什麼看法?"},{"start":13263.476,"end":13267.477,"text":"那我想這個部分我們隨時都注意美方的想法看法還有他到底在關切什麼事情那這個也坦白講也是因為台灣的台積電他的客戶那美國也是他最大的客戶所以台積電有這樣的除了在台灣持續加碼投資之外也有到這個美國日本跟德國設廠的這樣的一個"},{"start":13293.095,"end":13294.356,"text":"會否影響到台灣的整體國家安全?"},{"start":13319.736,"end":13346.597,"text":"對台灣來講我們台灣政府也有台灣的國家的利益所以對我們來講我們一方面在台灣加大投資那最先進的還有包括現在最先進的封裝等等我們都會讓他留在台灣但是他另外也到國際佈局所以我們的策略就是希望他在台灣的投資還是要優先然後另外再到其他的國家去投資"},{"start":13347.658,"end":13375.612,"text":"對,部長我還是一樣認同因為對我們來說把所有最重要的所有各個國家的利害關係集中在台灣的這個本島的範圍內是能夠增加台灣的這個整體的韌性畢竟從我們最新的這個營收我看起來台積電是7700多億聯電加世界先進整個加起來大概是快要到24兆新台幣所以如果有必要的話我們還是希望說能夠跟美方溝通"},{"start":13376.372,"end":13393.697,"text":"他們討論不是說減少風險然後就減少在臺灣的配置反而是因為要確保臺灣是在他們利害的利益跟危害的產業鏈的一環就是強調說如果你擔心你想要分散風險的最好方式就是鞏固臺灣"},{"start":13394.737,"end":13414.159,"text":"這是一個很重要的訊息不是分散資源到其他的分散他們的風險到其他你說日本也好或者是德國歐洲而是確保在臺灣的這一些晶圓的產業鏈能夠被鞏固鞏固跟分散風險是兩個不同的概念所以對於經濟部長我也是希望部長能夠"},{"start":13415,"end":13438.516,"text":"跟美方在接洽的時候要強調與其花費大筆的人力資源來去興建其他國家在興建新廠甚至是用更不符合成本不符合經濟成本的方式只為了要達到風尚風選鞏固台灣是最好最有效而且最符合台灣美國利益跟自由世界利益的一個方式這個方式你可不可以去跟美方來去"},{"start":13438.996,"end":13457.612,"text":"我完全贊成委員的意見那確實我們也有自己的國家安全自己國家的利益那再者就是說台灣現在半導體在台灣的生產是最有效率的那這個其實不是對台灣好而已而且是對全世界都好那也讓技術可以不斷的進步所以這一些的東西都是我們會考慮的點"},{"start":13459.013,"end":13486.196,"text":"那這個部長我還是在強調包含整體的國家利益之外還有符合我們自己由我選區嘉義縣的選區出來的利益經濟部能不能滿足台積電的水電需求比方說現在有媒體報導有一些半導體大廠可能進駐我們嘉義的科學園區我想請教部長短期的部分可能是由縣府來負責無水廠的再生水那長期的部分可能還是要仰賴經濟部該海水的淡化廠這個部分掌握狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":13487.678,"end":13487.698,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長。"},{"start":13515.478,"end":13533.199,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請那個王部長王美花王部長來請部長"},{"start":13538.801,"end":13539.282,"text":"您所瞭解的狀況是不是這樣?"},{"start":13563.743,"end":13587.821,"text":"目前這個部分確實都是美國政府來決定的部分我個人還不清楚美國政府的補助的金額所以你目前沒有辦法確定沒有辦法確定好另外我想這陣子大家都是集中在就是有關於電價上漲那條幅是多少那現在呢之前就是一直都傳出你們希望能夠把這個條幅"},{"start":13589.462,"end":13590.062,"text":"一千億還是1500億?"},{"start":13606.756,"end":13615.581,"text":"我們跟院裡面的爭取確實我們有爭取希望能夠比較多的1500億對不對因為你能補助到1500億然後你的補助額就你的這個條幅就可以降低可是部長我現在告訴你一件事情"},{"start":13624.105,"end":13643.327,"text":"我現在就告訴你,你的這個美夢可能會受到一些阻礙你知道為什麼呢?我今天早上特別問主計長我說我們稅收超成3600億他說沒有,沒有那麼多他說七折八扣因為有一些公債的發行等等之類最後剩下來只有1500億"},{"start":13645.427,"end":13668.106,"text":"所以我說只需要1500億 那麼台電也想要補助 然後我們勞保基金也快要破產 勞保基金也希望能爭取補助我說哇 大家都想著你這筆錢 那所以如果按照他的說法 其實這次稅收超出 他在扣除其他的他的必要的支出之後 只有1500億"},{"start":13670.413,"end":13688.773,"text":"所以他顯然很難完全補助給你而且他說了一句話他說如果全部都給補助給台電的話那麼明年度的預算很難編他說因為就沒有剩餘了所以部長這是不是你第一次聽到的噩耗"},{"start":13690.616,"end":13703.893,"text":"因為院裡面還在試算所以我們還沒有得到最後的答案還是你是只是跟他喊價而已沒有沒有反正是拿到最高的1500億但是事實上最後應該拿到補助金額撥補金額不會那麼高"},{"start":13706.348,"end":13722.424,"text":"因為你們確實還在試算當中所以你們要求1500億但是今天主計長講得非常清楚第二件事情沈記長也說了他說因為到目前為止稅收超徵的這部分到現在沈記部沒有審定他"},{"start":13723.405,"end":13751.001,"text":"他說如果要審定,因為你要撥補的話,你要等到他審定之後你才能夠拿到錢也就是說起碼要到七八月份之後那所以也就是說你不會立刻拿到錢,你知道這事嗎?這個都有他們的程序我大概知道那個流程部分好,所以如果請教一下如果你能拿到1500億的話,我們電價是不是可以控制預估漲到10到12%?"},{"start":13754.509,"end":13766.696,"text":"確實兩邊會有互動的關係沒有錯但是具體的數字恐怕我沒有辦法跟委員做說明兩到三趴的差別對不對有可能對但是因為細節其實是小組在審議我其實細節不知道"},{"start":13769.898,"end":13782.472,"text":"我要講一下就說要台電如果要補得多的話那麼勢必會影響我們明年度這是組計長說的我是今天也是第一次聽說我一直以為是大概3600億左右但是他跟證他說沒有這麼多"},{"start":13785.876,"end":13797.02,"text":"那麼如果我們現在就跟我們的行政院全部要來補助給台電那會有一個問題那會影響未來新政府520之後賴清德上來他的預算明年就很難編了是不是有這樣的狀況因為具體的財政怎麼編是確實是主計長這邊主計處這邊我說啊他現在是巧互難為無米之炊啊"},{"start":13813.993,"end":13814.013,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13833.211,"end":13844.601,"text":"好,謝謝王宏威委員接下來我們請陳俊宇委員不在嚴寬恒委員不在林楚英委員不在徐欣盈委員不在葉元芝委員不在高金素梅委員不在蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":13857.651,"end":13862.236,"text":"王美惠委員不在羅明財委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在劉建國委員不在"},{"start":13874.107,"end":13896.967,"text":"好,登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束另外有葉元之委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程進行到此明天星期四繼續開會現在休息謝謝"},{"start":13904.411,"end":13910.026,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":13932.292,"end":13933.493,"text":"國發會三次主委要出國"}]}},{"id":"15718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15718","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685d26331c83256afb89e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be4ad9dee8e7ce717095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-13","start_time":"2024-03-13T08:30:31+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-13T13:24:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17609,"委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2334.328,"end":2348.697,"text":"謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報接下來開始做以下的宣告本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢"},{"start":2355.681,"end":2371.673,"text":"請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員有請部長及安署州署長謝謝"},{"start":2385.29,"end":2407.671,"text":"部長好貼實認證是我國根據職業安全衛生法令等辦理的一個合格驗證證明那只有符合標準的這個機械設備甚至防爆管配件才可以在我國的石化工廠或電廠內的高危險區來使用目的是讓這些工廠發生危險的時候能夠把災害控制到一個範圍內但是2018年的時候我們當委員有"},{"start":2412.395,"end":2420.524,"text":"臺電的大林場它的高風險場區使用的防暴管材有使用到東元系統的安博產品那那個產品是偽造臺灣TS認證的部長您還記得這件事嗎"},{"start":2426.411,"end":2445.886,"text":"就是當時臺電有要求同胞商這現代樂鐵跟榮工公司把這個所有不合格的產品要做一個更換但是臺電也有提出對這個同胞商提出要求就是要求使用所謂的可斷鑄鐵這個材質來作為這個防爆管配件那我先把這個背景跟部長說明一下"},{"start":2448.087,"end":2455.775,"text":"這一家廠商叫做深芳公司他也有許多防爆管配件的這個也向職安署登錄取得這個TS認證但是我要強調是他眾多產品當中只有這個"},{"start":2461.434,"end":2478.159,"text":"可斷鑄鐵的材質有TS認證他的效期有3年部長根據那個職業安全衛生法的規定是不是只有經過測試檢定而且在職安署的網站上去登錄的你才可以在銷售的時候宣稱說你是具有這個TS認證我這個說法正確嗎"},{"start":2481.328,"end":2484.13,"text":"我們製造輸入使用我們指定的機械設備必須取得安全標準才可以來做實施,因為我們有管理系統和制製來執行"},{"start":2497.459,"end":2510.384,"text":"那下一張就是我前面提到2019 2019臺電大臨場因為需要因為不合格嘛再更換這個防爆這個氣管材的時候這家生方公司他明明知道自己取得ts認證的產品只限於這個鑄鐵合金"},{"start":2515.29,"end":2537.686,"text":"但是他在送審的這個產品的送審證書上寫的注鐵合金但實際成分是球末注鐵以後交貨也會是球末注鐵當然我們沒有否定球末注鐵也許他的材質是更好的但是他可以這樣濫用他的貼紙證照嗎就是說他合什麼是什麼他可以拿別的東西來抵嗎當然不行"},{"start":2538.686,"end":2549.71,"text":"那我們都知道部長說是不行這個灰口鑄鐵可斷鑄鐵或這個球木鑄鐵他完全不同的材質所以生方拿出這樣證書交給台電還好台電當時覺得有點問題是沒有採購但是我要談的是台電沒有採購但是廠商可以這樣做嗎所以就是說"},{"start":2558.573,"end":2578.396,"text":"上個月底我的辦公室同仁也有到職安署大林電廠去檢查去參與這個檢查那麼現場台電也承認說當時是有接到這樣的文件那部長你何時要依法去裁罰呢就是廠商這樣的做法何時要去裁罰呢因為這個部分229我們去查"},{"start":2580.418,"end":2593.815,"text":"確實是有一些異議目前是在請台電公司要提供相關的合約部長這個去年就有立委檢舉了很久了但是我們都有按照程序要進行詳細我請署長來說明"},{"start":2597.318,"end":2619.904,"text":"我跟您簡單解釋因為大林電廠是舊的電廠它是用原來是用美規的標準來做設置跟施工的製造那我們慈安法在103年開始試用的時候有關我們是用新的歐規的標準所以這兩個標準在融合過程中臺電大林電廠用既有的標準在設置那現在是依照用電用戶建設裝置規則"},{"start":2622.765,"end":2649.566,"text":"來做進步的釐清我們勞動部會跟經濟部做進步更化設計安裝的設備做有效來做確認這一次的重點就是像申方他認證的配管件因為他的效期是3年那他會不會一併到其他的地方中油啦台塑啦中頂公司也是用同樣的證明文件去處理你要不可以一併謝謝委員其實包括原來的委員跟您非常關心這個我非常非常感謝因為在"},{"start":2650.026,"end":2667.329,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2667.329,"end":2697.329,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2697.869,"end":2698.809,"text":"對不起委員可不可以插個話"},{"start":2721.674,"end":2749.683,"text":"這個部份是不是在防暴區因為我剛才跟委員解釋大聯想是用舊的美規標準設施規劃所以我現在就請經濟部做進一步的釐清如果這個區塊是真的需要屬於防暴區的話當然台電這個部份就要做比較明確的違反規定就是說那一天台電說要去帶大家去看防暴區啦說該處使用需要符合防暴標準的防暴管材那參加抽驗的人都有職安署官員啊公研院的專家在"},{"start":2750.563,"end":2750.943,"text":"是他是這麼說的"},{"start":2780.883,"end":2782.966,"text":"部長這個職聘這個是移工職聘的部分首次招募右邊是這個再次招募重新招募你看那個職聘的比率這10年來離1%很遙遠的0.2%"},{"start":2797.805,"end":2815.986,"text":"然後對於重新這個招募的部分這個理論上說移工工作滿3年僱主要繼續聘照理說他們有經驗了那應該還要再發這個仲介費嗎我是說他們為什麼職域也是1%所以部長勞動部雖然說職聘是你的既定政策但是效果不好嗎是不是對對效果不好"},{"start":2816.406,"end":2836.254,"text":"那效果在上次我質詢也有提出來那後來就有專家就是所謂的前勞發署跨國勞動力管理組組長薛建忠他指出說整個職聘有三大難關移工人選難密、語言密不通、申請程序繁複部長您同意這三個是一個障礙或難關嗎?部長您同意這三點?"},{"start":2837.868,"end":2855.134,"text":"這個因為是我們之前組長他是這個主辦的人他應該是很瞭解的其實我知道勞動部很努力但是就是說我們看看哪一些可以再繼續做得更好難關一人選難密部長現在問題是有移工團體指控他們到就業服務站"},{"start":2855.974,"end":2873.317,"text":"我說全臺灣都有就業服戰他不只幫外國本國人沒有也有幫助外籍外移工但是移工到了現場你看他們他到現場沒有僱主來他要他簽到因為如果不簽到的話他就會被強制反國那這個就是他簽到但是到了他們問僱主在哪裡"},{"start":2874.839,"end":2891.277,"text":"那個工作人員竟然說你們要自己找那不像求職的時候你這個人事部叫你來面試那你說面試官呢沒有面試官面試官你要自己去104這個銀行網站找這個這樣這個就業服務站只簽名不媒合這樣可以嗎部長"},{"start":2892.661,"end":2917.608,"text":"這當然不行所以移工抗議了嘛這個我們改變好不好改進好不好了解一下也要針對這些缺失來具體來講一下那因為還有兩個點一個是言語不通啦那這個就是說我們知道全臺灣總共有48座就業服務中心如果要提供這個媒合可能要有雙語服務部長你知道這48座就業服務中心有幾家是提供的四國雙語服務"},{"start":2920.1,"end":2941.147,"text":"我們其實現在就是在各就福站透過三方有兩家一個桃園一個在彰化去年成立的我覺得這個很棒這是專設的但是我們其實各就福站都可以透過三方的一個因為我們現在還在談職聘中心怎麼來鼓勵那一年當中大概有多少移工會轉換雇主"},{"start":2943.782,"end":2960.21,"text":"大概有多少位要轉換雇主會需要這樣的服務大概兩萬多兩萬多每年大概有兩萬多那因為這樣的兩座老實說48座裡面兩座這樣子是不是說這種算是很好的服務是不是可能再考慮再擴大一下那最後沒問題我們這兩座是先示範謝謝謝謝部長的承諾"},{"start":2965.632,"end":2979.685,"text":"好那最後一個是身體法上次我在質詢就是說執聘手續非常的繁複啊簡直像這個玩大地遊戲我覺得玩大風吹他進進出出很多的機構但是這個勞動部已經做到了一個部分點就是說"},{"start":2981.124,"end":3003.966,"text":"高雄跟長高雄的桃園高高雄成立一站式服務我覺得很棒的內動內政部勞動部跨跨服務的跨部會合作這種就是最便民的一個做法這個一站式的服務啊移工可以在這裡中心接受三天兩夜的這個講習來來瞭解在臺灣生活需知啊為衛生保健還有勞動權益等等那雇主這邊可以一次性的辦好對"},{"start":3004.967,"end":3005.407,"text":"謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來我們請陳金輝委員"},{"start":3032.731,"end":3056.491,"text":"主席主席各位同事媒體朋友還有各位官員大家早安我想請部長請部長部長剛剛陳昭之委員講的所有的問題我上禮拜有問你有一本移工管理及調查報告每年都會出一本您上禮拜說您沒有看請問這週您看了嗎"},{"start":3061.078,"end":3074.069,"text":"我會來看我會來看報告委員因為同仁都會整給我啦因為那個報告有時候我比較沒有時間他們都會把重點載入給我好可以你太忙了但是焦志偉人剛剛講的所有問題"},{"start":3075.67,"end":3089.955,"text":"報告都已經寫了但這些問題已經連續3年沒有改善包括文件繁瑣找不到職聘中心還有招牌越來越少連職聘中心的後面沒有附英文"},{"start":3092.114,"end":3108.274,"text":"質詢中心的招牌後面沒有英文但是勞動部的後面有英文那個我來看一下如果沒有我們馬上改善應該要這個基本的好謝謝部長因為我上禮拜就說過質詢中心假使沒有發揮您預期的功能的話其實"},{"start":3110.114,"end":3134.9,"text":"報告委員我們這個真的會來努力因為齁仲介的制度已經大家習慣使用了而且說職聘齁還是有他的困難點不過我們會努力來突破包括程序的繁瑣文件怎麼樣簡化流程怎麼樣讓大家方便這個我們要來努力真的很希望明年不會再看到這個移工管理及調查報告還在反映文件很繁瑣這樣子的問題了那我們來看這個"},{"start":3139.212,"end":3154.861,"text":"您自己公布的同工同酬立法已經兩性平等法已經20年了結果呢女生還是要多工作54天薪資才可以追平男性跟男性平起平坐"},{"start":3156.587,"end":3173.462,"text":"我只要這個是跟2019 2019年蔡英文總統相任的時候一模一樣的天數欸所以我們的總統是女性我們高官勞動部長是女性但是我們經過了8年我們的同工同酬日還是54天"},{"start":3175.453,"end":3202.854,"text":"會不會覺得這個數據是不是我們努力的方向錯了我是覺得我們還在努力不過其實我要跟委員報告我們其實這樣的一個差距相對於美國的17日本的韓國的30我們其實是更平等但是我覺得這個是還有要大大努力的空間不過有時候這個薪資差距主要是來自於所謂性別職業的隔離那這個部分就是跨部會要努力"},{"start":3203.715,"end":3228.183,"text":"那這個就是要透過教育啦職業訓練來改善我們等一下來看另外一個數據好除了我們的薪資落後喔這個薪資差距這個也是您發布的我們算是27個國家排名中第20名倒數第8名所以臺灣每一位男性勞動者每個月平均收入是61150元女性勞動者平均每個月49809元每個月會少11341"},{"start":3232.464,"end":3234.807,"text":"一年就少了13點6萬報告委員這個他這個統計是統計前段班的部分我們是在前段班的排名我們不是說整個全世界我們"},{"start":3248.126,"end":3259.178,"text":"最差不是這樣子他是取前段班那我們的排名在我懂我們需要更好所以我們過去8年其實是沒有進步過去8年沒有進步但您剛講到說這個選工作科系學歷但我跟部長update一下"},{"start":3270.53,"end":3292.02,"text":"最新的數據有110年其實50歲以下的女性他讀大專的比例已經高過男性了但當然在研究所的比例男性還是高過女性如果我們的學金力過去幾十年大幅的提升我們的勞參率還有我們的薪資的差異不是應該也要改善嗎這個我想"},{"start":3296.991,"end":3319.107,"text":"這個應該我們會努力逐年會改善這個部分好所以剛好看到說如果我跟我先生是做一樣的工作但是我已經預期我會少他一萬多又看到新聞時不時可能會有很害怕的這個脫音脫語的虐待等等的事件其實每一個女生想一想算一算自然就不會去參與勞動嗎"},{"start":3321.289,"end":3338.037,"text":"但是您這邊也有寫到啊建構友善生養環境促進雇主提供子女托育及工作平衡措施如果你這些沒有跟上的話我們怎麼可能可以改善我們的勞資差異呢"},{"start":3339.008,"end":3356.502,"text":"所以我們一直都在各項的友善的育兒措施或設施都一直努力在推啦好我們等一下來看一下你其他的KPI從國內來看呢過去10年喔剛講過去8年我們從100年到110年兩性的勞參率的差距只有從16%降到15%欸"},{"start":3367.421,"end":3377.134,"text":"一趴十年降了一趴差距還是非常的巨大從這個數據來看我真的很難看出勞動部這個業務報告有什麼很明顯的改善"},{"start":3385.257,"end":3404.366,"text":"當然因為在國內還是女性有時候會因為育兒婚育照顧的因素會離開不過我們這幾年一直在針對女性的就業的一些促進的措施那我們等一下再來看我們會持續來努力因此我們的在就業狀況"},{"start":3406.227,"end":3421.804,"text":"剛您提到再就業嘛因為他們育兒啊進入家庭所以對他們而言最重要就是當他們中斷了一長個時間以後他們願意再回職場的這樣意願高不高嘛我們圈起來看女性不管哪一國臺灣日本韓國高點就是25到29歲"},{"start":3425.268,"end":3452.181,"text":"但是台灣在29歲以後一路往下滑日本跟韓國在45到49 50到54都有兩個高點所以我們要看女性幫你們圈起來了紅色這邊50歲以後的就業率65%46 26我們跟日本韓國比起來真的太丟臉了我們是不到人家的二分之一甚至不到接近三分之一耶"},{"start":3454.243,"end":3465.487,"text":"的確在國內我們的女性勞參與在101年首次突破50%以後然後一直穩定成長了112年51.93那基本上25到29的勞參與大概九成可是"},{"start":3471.889,"end":3487.669,"text":"三十歲以後就逐年下降吼所以表示臺灣女生就沒有雙峰國外有雙峰吶所以我們現在也跟尾巴我們有去年就推那個婦女二度就業那去年推薦的人次有兩萬"},{"start":3488.71,"end":3506.617,"text":"婦女在就業計畫一年花3.5億三年要花10.5億結果你幫自己訂的KPI是女性勞動力三年增加14萬好請問你這個女性勞動力不就包括全部的女生嗎你有特別把二度就業挑出來嗎"},{"start":3508.232,"end":3516.498,"text":"這是二度就業喔這是再就業報告委員這不是全體這是針對二度就業你要再增加14萬人對對對這是新的計畫"},{"start":3521.894,"end":3542.603,"text":"我想問一下你這個KPI是不是應該重新調整因為我們在沒有這個就業計畫的時候105到108年自然成長的女性就業就已經12萬了對但你如果要特別把它挑出來的話你這些表格應該要分成在就業率在就業的人還有對"},{"start":3544.507,"end":3559.637,"text":"剛講到薪資嘛我們不能只看這個kpi只看數字因爲他現在連薪資都非常的不平等所以你應該要仔細把你的kpi去分析我這些二度在就業他的薪資結構是高的是中的是低的"},{"start":3561.351,"end":3585.607,"text":"是嗎?不然你如果是低的在就這個薪資比較低的在就業率幫他媒合的是優質的職缺啦其實剛剛我跟委員講我們那個KPI其實有跨部會大家討論那因為這個部分是二度就業婦女那我們會考慮這種狀況當然我們也希望能夠把那個人數KPI再提高不過我們"},{"start":3586.167,"end":3612.41,"text":"我們會滾動檢討啦一定會滾動檢討我是很希望啦在這邊給部長一個建議請您回去要稍微調整一下這個KPI因為你如果光是解決人數或是比例或是勞動力的話你沒有辦法解決你明年發布同工同酬日還是54天的問題那個同工同酬其實跟這個不一定是有相關聯我剛剛講的就是說這個其實要從整個的"},{"start":3616.934,"end":3629.922,"text":"我希望你們還是可以稍微把你們這些在就業的人或是初次就業的人要稍微分層一下不然你們永遠找不出這些問題在哪裡好謝謝陳委員接下來我們請盧憲一委員"},{"start":3656.48,"end":3656.78,"text":"有請部長請許部長"},{"start":3667.762,"end":3684.396,"text":"大概查了資料就是在投資青年就業方案這個部分大概在3年的時間花了133億可是我們的整體的青年的失業率還是在超過兩倍未達預期目標請問部長這問題出在哪裡"},{"start":3687.159,"end":3705.779,"text":"報告委員我們剛剛講的那個是第一期的投資青年就業方案因為全世界都一樣青年的失業率都高於全體國人的這個失業率那過去我記得數據曾經到10點12%所以我們其實在推第一年的投資"},{"start":3708.564,"end":3725.759,"text":"投資青年方案之後這個失業率是有降下來而且我們從10.76降到8.38跟委員報告這中間還報告三年的疫情喔照理說如果疫情的時候其實可能青年失業率會更高但是我們反而是這樣我們有好幾個計畫"},{"start":3730.063,"end":3757.178,"text":"好我們有在學的離校的各種計劃就針對15到29歲的青年所以我們的目標是要兩倍以內嗎對不對目標是這樣當初是希望但是委員因為也碰到疫情所以這個請委員特別能夠來理解在原住民的一些教育訓練方面連續大概1234年的部分他的最主要他"},{"start":3758.138,"end":3782.517,"text":"不滿意的就是他的無法配合到執訊上課的時間也是說這4年裡面永遠問題第一名都是這個那既然都是這個的話為什麼不去調整上課的時間呢為什麼一直都是第一名報告委員我記得好不好我這個我可以來再瞭解我記得我們各分署會針對我們原住民的"},{"start":3783.464,"end":3811.892,"text":"那個老公朋友會有專班專班的職業訓練所以應該他的上課時間我在想應該大部分都是6日對不對我在想啦我不知道這個沒關係對可是因為既然沒有辦法配合的話你應該要調整那個上課時間這個會報告委員這個我來請齁同源他們來做改善第二個也是蠻高的就是沒有想要參加的課程所以你是不是應該先做一個類似像調查他們想要上什麼課才開那樣的課"},{"start":3812.552,"end":3818.257,"text":"目前公部門他有些應該是應該要足以運用原住民的他還是有一些地方是缺15還有缺16的這個部分希望你能夠去了解為什麼他們沒有辦法達到好不好"},{"start":3843.601,"end":3864.342,"text":"好,這個我來瞭解一下,我請同仁來瞭解目前做得最好,全國做得最好是桃園市就原住民就業這個部分那我希望如果你覺得桃園市現在的數據是桃園市最好的話你們應該去參考桃園市是怎麼做的然後再推廣到全省這樣,可以嗎?可以,會後來瞭解"},{"start":3865.92,"end":3894.868,"text":"現在一直在做多元就業開發方案也就是說希望留住在地的青年來培育我們或者是中老年的一些在地就業目前我看到的一個比較好的一個是叫沙老部落我們這樣念他的主語叫沙道我看到的是他原本是沒有一個遊客可以造訪那個地區經過他們的努力一年可以超過400人也就是說可能就產生一些超過60萬台幣的一個產值就可以養活在地的人"},{"start":3895.128,"end":3909.531,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3909.864,"end":3929.576,"text":"那我們最後來萬美指可一下目前南韓的那個最低薪資是在OECD的排名是這樣子是在不是在前面是在等於是在十幾名如果這樣子看12345678913名那13名的最低薪資遠高於我們"},{"start":3930.762,"end":3931.463,"text":"報告委員我們其實去年年底已經"},{"start":3947.063,"end":3957.83,"text":"通過最低工資法那未來我們在最低工資的審議的時候會有專家先提出研究的報告那勞資政學雙方也會在討論的時候會斟酌各種這個"},{"start":3962.813,"end":3987.89,"text":"這個我們的數據啦吼相關的一些我給你看一下南海是295元那個南海的消費水準讓我們三倍是啦那不過我們不會看這個我們還是看數據嘛對對對啊我們的我們現在像我們的時薪是到183吶吼那就是以我們消費水平跟南海的比較我們應該不會比較厲害他們的薪資已經到達這樣的一個程度他們的醫生還要罷工"},{"start":3988.69,"end":4007.749,"text":"那如果說我們相對就我們這樣的心智的話我們是不是應該都有罷工的權利我希望還是省省的思考一個機制這個提升勞工的心智是我們一直要努力的目標我們會持續來努力那我們再做一些先進國家的一個年收入跟月收入一個比較"},{"start":4009.693,"end":4026.14,"text":"而在這裡面只有新加坡有在這個比較下面的排名也就是說新加坡的一個如果是就月收入來說已經到達5600美金是目前我們台灣如果換算台幣的話是17萬這是他平均的"},{"start":4026.8,"end":4045.844,"text":"獲得的收入不是最高跟最低所以我們還是要檢討我們為什麼國內的收入是普遍低於我們之前可以相並比的四小龍可以嗎親自的提高其實跨部會大家一起來努力本以各自的選擇來朝這個目標來邁進"},{"start":4057.694,"end":4086.324,"text":"我因為還有一點時間我還是希望能夠講一下職業安全的部分那因為在我們知道在桃園尤其是很多工廠的地方有沒有想過如果當時如果發生一些比如說工廠的爆炸啦或者是一些重大的一些職業災害啊有沒有在地可以處理的一個醫療院所因為基本上我知道如果說像桃園的福地也蠻大的如果說全部送到林口常科醫院的話"},{"start":4087.344,"end":4116.203,"text":"那可能會爆量或者是我們所謂的不利桃園醫院所以在沿海地區的一些緊急救治的一些傷患的一些急救站你們有沒有考慮過說要去設置因為它的工廠的密度非常高所以你們在規劃的時候是不是應該要去想說為了防範以後發生的重大意外那你在後送的時候或是緊急處理的時候是不是有一個相對的一個治療點你們有沒有在這樣想"},{"start":4116.983,"end":4131.93,"text":"有有報告委員我們其實現在就是有陸續建置我們的那個整治的專者醫院還有我們的那個網絡醫院那個就是說要真讓用幾公里算還是用幾分鐘算"},{"start":4132.89,"end":4148.902,"text":"好應該是要有一個數據來出來讓我們讓我們的老公朋友能夠安心可以嗎就是盡量進變啦就是我們鼓勵像網絡醫院我們盡量把它擴大就是有有意願要來加入網絡醫院的我們都對那你建制好以後你建制好應該要"},{"start":4149.462,"end":4175.213,"text":"獲獲獲"},{"start":4178.097,"end":4193.495,"text":"謝謝盧憲宜委員接下來請邱政軍委員好我們有請部長請許部長"},{"start":4198.737,"end":4226.755,"text":"邱委員好部長我請問一下上週本席才關心過我們勞保2028破產的問題是那我這幾天又看到頭版我們勞保精算出負債13兆465億那我也看了您的這個業務報告根據研議勞工保險財務危機改善因應對策這句話是什麼意思準備有做什麼準備嗎"},{"start":4227.793,"end":4230.154,"text":"我想問的是你這個對策是什麼?"},{"start":4254.707,"end":4268.228,"text":"我們的對策第一個報告委員我們現在當然就是費率的調整我們每兩年調一次還有這個保費的一個收取也要強化另外就是說我們的那個"},{"start":4270.05,"end":4283.777,"text":"幾副審核要確實從部長上任然後另外就是撥補報告員撥補的部分是目前各界有共識的所以這部分我們先做所以從2020到現在你一直撥補錢從哪裡來"},{"start":4288.484,"end":4316.61,"text":"就是政府編列預算公務預算撥補另外還有個特別預算我覺得你們應該要有一個好的一個政策出來吧一個方案出來這樣用撥補的永遠都是在撥補那要補到什麼時候那個報告委員其實調整的方向這個就是不會只有撥補這個部分那當然還有其他方面像要來因為這個問題已經講了很久了我希望我們到現在還沒有看到一個具體的做法"},{"start":4318.471,"end":4341.163,"text":"只是說我們會研議改善因應對策那講了那麼久那所謂的政策是什麼我希望部長這邊給我一個明確的說明好嗎好因為我們這樣看齁我們目前看起來只是暫時不會餓死也不會馬上爆發但是長久下來這個問題還是存在的"},{"start":4344.096,"end":4359.665,"text":"部長認同我的說法嗎那是不是我們應該在這個時候還有時間我們盡快來處理這個問題包括你這個問題是一定要處理不過就是我剛剛講的這個是一個蠻複雜的工程包括各個勞資團體包括各政黨大家可能對調整的方向調整的面向可能大家還是要有一些溝通"},{"start":4370.511,"end":4390.281,"text":"然後有一定的共識這樣要推可能會比較順因為在我看到這個報告我們自己勞動部精算過2039年以後勞保將會達到這個給付的高峰每年都要給付超過一兆如果是這個而且連續30年你認為我們勞退基金不會破產嗎"},{"start":4391.633,"end":4404.934,"text":"老保老保老保不會破產嗎因為財務的問題啊吼的確就是要去面對了吼那所以但是這個也是政府辦的保險吼政府一定會負起給付的責任不過"},{"start":4406.515,"end":4429.096,"text":"財務的問題一定要是解決了那當然我們現在我剛講目前波普只是先踏出第一步而已那其他的面向還要去做檢討所以部長一直講說波普波普那波普就是我們的一種改革是嗎波普怎麼會是改革呢波普是調整的面向之一因為我們本來在原來的"},{"start":4430.748,"end":4431.168,"text":"你覺得撥補要補多少才會平啊?"},{"start":4455.173,"end":4461.74,"text":"當然這個要看整個基金的餘有狀況還有政府的財政狀況希望部長這邊能夠有一個具體的說法跟做法那什麼時候可以給我資料我們一個月提個報告給您"},{"start":4478.215,"end":4498.861,"text":"再來第二個問題我們民洋大火燒出了很多的問題那去年9月我們部長也承諾一個月決議是不是要收回我們產業園區的這個勞檢權那後來周署長也說涉及這個範圍很廣還是要跨部會討論那大概今年初會進一步討論那目前的進度在哪裡"},{"start":4500.849,"end":4516.863,"text":"這個行政院有邀集相關部會討論過目前是還沒有這個決定收回的這件事情但是有要求督導的這個機制要更確實然後有關於這個"},{"start":4518.865,"end":4523.088,"text":"那我這樣講,如果要說回勞安檢查權,勞動部有沒有盤點過說需要修改的法規有多少?很多,非常多那會不會有困難?"},{"start":4540.482,"end":4541.182,"text":"我請署長說明一下"},{"start":4561.222,"end":4568.245,"text":"好了我希望勞動部能夠積極一點該收回就要收回那或者是採取用合作的模式研議我們具有可行性的方案來確保我們產業園區和科學園區裡面的工業安全衛生這樣可以嗎?好"},{"start":4589.178,"end":4612.872,"text":"那我再問我們非典型勞工要保障這個問題跟訴求其實已經很多年了那我們的賴清德準總統也說過面對臺灣非典型勞工占比已經達到15%了那要強化非典型勞工在薪資工時休假保障等基本勞動權利給予更周延的保障那部長這邊有討論過這個問題嗎過去有"},{"start":4618.554,"end":4644.075,"text":"這個部分有關於非典勞工尤其像外送員的部分的權益保障其實一直也是勞動部非常關注的工作重點然後這個部分我們其實在勞動部部分首要從他的權益的安全還有他的薪酬的一個這個權益的這個保障還有包括他的保險我們從這三方面去做"},{"start":4645.676,"end":4649.979,"text":"一切規劃,那我們也建制他們外送平台跟外送員的對話平台"},{"start":4675.556,"end":4678.578,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":4700.386,"end":4720.231,"text":"部長好部長我今天也是要跟部長討論這個移工的政策啦那前陣子我們看到這個剛結束奧斯卡的頒獎典禮那我們看得到就是說很多電影都是反映現實那有一部電影這個復讀青年我不知道部長有沒有看過"},{"start":4720.991,"end":4749.534,"text":"我沒有看過那個我有看稍微看一下大家知道嗎那這個這個背景是在馬來西亞的副都那這個也是反映就是移工移工在當地的一個生活狀況那我們看到就是說在反映到臺灣這邊我們看到就是監察院在去年也有發表一本書就是說一群在臺灣沒有身份的人移工為什麼要失聯那我不知道部長"},{"start":4750.575,"end":4761.645,"text":"你有看過嗎這本書監察院這本有載入重點有載入重點那我想說藉由今天的這個質詢希望部長針對我們現在所面臨的這個問題就是失聯的移工到目前為止有8萬多人"},{"start":4772.895,"end":4798.862,"text":"當然部長你有特別提到就是說要鼓勵就是我們鼓勵合法的聘僱放寬機構看護移工等等的做法來改善移工失聯的這個狀況可是我們從監察院的這一本書當中他就提出說移工他在工作中可能遭逢危機或者是求助無門所以只好選擇合法的僱主另謀生路"},{"start":4799.702,"end":4818.298,"text":"所以我這個我們勞動部跟這個監察院的這個看起來好像互相矛盾我想請教就是勞動部針對這個部分就是說有沒有什麼樣補充說明或者是我們的跨部會合作怎樣來改善這個移工失聯的這個做法"},{"start":4818.638,"end":4839.499,"text":"其實報告委員移工失聯問題那個原因很多啦吼像這邊嚴建山說低薪又滅勞我們講的這個部分當然是其中之一啦吼包括說也說經濟因素啦或者他勞動環境等等這個也都是有那其實在院裡面針對這個問題其實都是召集跨部會在做討論就是說這個對策戰尤其像"},{"start":4842.342,"end":4857.825,"text":"過去3年的疫情造成整個移工失聯人數飆升所以到底要如何把它降下來我們也在前年其實開了好幾次的這個跨部會的會議所以去年是有降下來是 去年有降了從1.96降下來"},{"start":4858.206,"end":4870.011,"text":"部長你之前說就是鼓勵合法的聘僱然後就引進譬如說這個農業移工需要可能一些更多的這個移工進來幫忙那你們這邊也樂觀其成也開放那可是這樣子的話確實有減少這樣的移工的這個失聯的這個狀況嗎有這個有幫助"},{"start":4877.994,"end":4904.775,"text":"其實報告委員因為我們適度的就是把這個名額增加了其實農業外勞農業移工是從那個疫情前我們的6000放到12000放到12000那包括很多失點移工他會跑到民間的營造業過去沒有開放的我們去年也開了所以我覺得合法的聘僱會讓失點的人數因為他可以合法聘僱我想僱主也不要冒險他也不願意去冒險所以"},{"start":4906.837,"end":4934.113,"text":"將來這個我想這個合法的移工能夠引進之後那再加上我們現在疫情的趨緩的整個邊境管制都解除都可以正常進來我想整個移工失聯的狀況應該會再陸續的降下那針對監察院的這一個報告裡面他還有寫低薪又虐勞那如果真的後面這個狀況的話心知的部分那個報告員主要是家庭家庭的看護工他因為他"},{"start":4934.873,"end":4954.134,"text":"家庭剛剛不適用勞基法其實本國的家庭剛剛一樣也不適用勞基法本國本外籍的勞工通通是平等待遇所以過去只有一萬七所以在前年我們也把它調升到兩萬讓它能夠跟市場的行情比較一致"},{"start":4957.136,"end":4984.802,"text":"這也是慢慢的去解決低薪的問題那當然那還有這個休假的部分過老因為看護工確實24小時所以我們有這個喘息服務我們有喘息服務我們現在他家庭的看護工他一年可以52次就有52天的休息時間那配合喘息服務這個經費都是勞動部支持的所以就是希望能夠改善這個"},{"start":4986.042,"end":5013.82,"text":"而勞工的這個移工的這個呃過勞的情形吼那再來就是說當然那個虐噢虐勞的問題吼雇主不當對待我們也強化吼檢舉吼我們1955專線也讓我們的移工透過多元的宣傳管道用不同的語言讓他們知道包括現在一再式的服務中心一進來我們就會告訴他你的勞動權益你怎麼求助你的申訴管道通通讓他們知道我想這樣會降低這個吼虐待的一個情勢啦"},{"start":5014.821,"end":5043.852,"text":"其實我們看到臺灣不論是產業移工或者是我們這個家庭看護移工其實他們到臺灣來一方面也是這個滿懷著憧憬希望到這個環境來就是最主要也要賺錢嘛那改善他們母國的可能這個整個經濟狀況那我們希望就是說他來到臺灣整個工作的環境也許需要這個我們這個雇主還有政府這邊要互相"},{"start":5044.432,"end":5047.654,"text":"我相信我們大部分的僱主都是善待移工的啦但是"},{"start":5072.867,"end":5090.499,"text":"也不好還是有些人吼對這個這個我們的移工沒有很吼這個合理的對待吼甚至虐虐待吼我覺得這都不應該啦我覺得說大家可能在心態上觀念上要做一些改變吼就是說雇主你應該他來當然是要賺錢沒有問題但是他也"},{"start":5091.239,"end":5115.697,"text":"幫忙你不管是家庭的一些照顧等等我們應該是一個感恩的心把它當一個家人這樣對待我相信就不會有虐待的問題再來就是在勞動部的部分我們就是透過我們的家庭訪視我們那個訪有訪視員訪查員我們各地方政府我們補助他訪查員就是加強訪查再來就是移工很重要受到虐待他一定要申訴他一定要勇敢站出來"},{"start":5116.477,"end":5137.848,"text":"你聲述我們一定會查辦到底,一定絕不寬待,用這樣的方式去阻止這個虐待移工的情勢來一再的發生其實我會覺得說這個產業移工的部分可能還沒有那麼嚴重那我覺得說這個看護工的部分是比較嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":5139.088,"end":5166.577,"text":"對因為第一個就是說薪資可能跟廠工比起來是有一些落差那另外廠工的話他還有工作可能8小時之後是加班就是可以加班嘛有加班費那這個看護工的話他可能也沒有這樣的一個加班費可以請領所以有很多看護工其實他一段時間之後他可能有的會受到一些影響可能有的就逃跑那我們當然就是說這個"},{"start":5168.437,"end":5196.574,"text":"看護工的話其實未來也是我們很重要的一個看護的一個長道一個很重要的一個主力因為很多家庭他確實需要這樣子看護移工來幫忙所以我們也希望就是說從政策方面能夠讓這些這個看護移工到台灣來他一方面雖然說薪資可能跟長工還是有一些落差可是如果說他的整個工作環境有改善的話我覺得他還是會願意"},{"start":5198.595,"end":5210.999,"text":"來擔任我們這樣的一個非常重要的一個整個長照體系其中的一環所以我也希望就是說勞動部可能跟各部會還是要繼續努力尤其是監察院這樣寫我都覺得說這個"},{"start":5213.96,"end":5214.861,"text":"謝謝防洩網委員的諮詢謝謝部長的答詢"},{"start":5244.15,"end":5262.061,"text":"謝謝接下來請蘇清泉委員謝謝主席我請部長跟老安老安署長請子安署啦對不起子安子安署子安署蘇委員好"},{"start":5267.813,"end":5273.457,"text":"副部長,你是屏東人,屏東人口80萬,內地農民就要38萬,其他就是勞工"},{"start":5282.526,"end":5301.711,"text":"我們勞工我不覺得勞動部對屏東有什麼好部長這個你要反省一下我今天要講的是你們大家都忘了但是這件事情就是民養大活那個時候吵得灰灰洋洋但是現在去年9月我來喚起大家的"},{"start":5308.613,"end":5334.753,"text":"不要攻擊完就忘記了十條人命九十幾個人受傷我們都參與在裡面救救人那我要這裡要講的是冰凍關的職災的發生率是全台灣第一名4.196台灣的平均是2點多這個我們史蘭史林族在做事情嗎"},{"start":5339.492,"end":5339.695,"text":"然後"},{"start":5343.03,"end":5370.651,"text":"這個10條的命令有4個是我們的消防員那這消防員我們去跟他去給他衛護跟侯友宇去的時候那家屬緊緊的拉著我的手說希望我們幫他們的忙不要下一個受害者那現在有一個問題就是我們治安署這邊是用職業安全衛生法嘛對吧那這是公務人員消防隊員是用公務人員安全防護辦法"},{"start":5372.509,"end":5382.305,"text":"這個辦法什麼都不是嘛,也不是法,這是根據那些細節啦,訂出來的規範啦,辦法。這個你有,部長你有辦法介入嗎?這個很重要喔。"},{"start":5386.23,"end":5409.243,"text":"這個報告委員其實這個大火發生以後那個行政院都有召集相關的部會那從彼此的權責去看怎麼樣強化未來的這些防災的管理不要讓這樣一個悲劇再次的發生所以我們自己部會像那個我們就是消防員的部分我們就是"},{"start":5410.564,"end":5432.532,"text":"就是他的防護就是由內政部消防法在消防法裡面去參考我們一些職我們職災保險或者我們的那個職安法的相關的規範去做職安的專章這部分是有責成行政院有責成內政部要去把法治完善所以他們的裝備武器裝備保養"},{"start":5434.733,"end":5459.548,"text":"阿他人生阿人生我覺得我們職安署做的比這個公家單位做的公務員這邊還好捏職安署謝謝委員的那個的這個垂詢因為有關消防法消防隊員確實在我們的國家法制裡面他的安全是依照公務員安全的防護辦法來辦理但是其實有特別指示因為這次民營大火之後有關消防隊員職安的部分"},{"start":5460.188,"end":5475.01,"text":"有明確的指示要求由內政部由在那個消防法裡面定職安專章職安專章的法條目前消防署來找我們職安署提供我們提供的建議條文的內容給他們參考那邏輯上就是消防隊員的職業安全他做"},{"start":5475.49,"end":5502.087,"text":"封寫評估控制再救災跟我們執安法保障保障給那邊多一點啊你看多少個消防弟兄沒命去放啊發聲啊屏東這個大家受不了十幾個家庭破碎啊受傷的九十幾個現在在補皮啊還在復健啊那這個這個這個你說有執安的工廠地圖我看屏東"},{"start":5507.544,"end":5516.919,"text":"但是我今天早上看Google有名揚這個公司在但是我們的職安地圖裡面居然沒有名揚欸"},{"start":5519.833,"end":5520.833,"text":"好,你看屏東縣的治安地圖那個那個一點一點那個"},{"start":5548.236,"end":5551.038,"text":"有在close follow up"},{"start":5575.916,"end":5578.439,"text":"民洋因為全世界的高爾夫球的球感台灣做了30%那全世界的高爾夫球的球台灣做了將近30%"},{"start":5596.403,"end":5616.067,"text":"台灣就是六家在搬啦 六家都有互相交叉 所以民營他沒做 其他就也不如何啊 也不差啊民營這個出事了 我是覺得很糟糕的就是他這個董事長是台大發公室的喔 台大發公室真的是 聲報夠賣欸"},{"start":5619.926,"end":5646.899,"text":"一個高級的球心是順勢丁二溪然後一些coating一層一層coating上去那個球那個是全部都是粉塵類的然後裡面還有鋰碰到所謂的爆炸那裡面的顏料跟TNT炸藥我當海軍陸戰隊我跟你講跟TNT炸彈是炸藥是一模一樣那這個廠商廠他把"},{"start":5648.25,"end":5676.655,"text":"儲存的場 儲存的地方 跟製造的地方 跟辦公室 都要合作一下 有這麼要事的一年做三四十億 一年賺五六億 改善那些工作 我都去現場看 看我很痛心去一年要開五六千萬 就改善了 都改善了 結果又不改善這是很糟糕的事情 那我現在要強調的是這些東西等於坐在炸藥上在做東西"},{"start":5677.645,"end":5705.16,"text":"那其他的5家你們有去查嗎這個是更嚴肅的問題喔我們第一時間就有盤整有關這個原料我們有的特別是用有機過氧化合物的那個事業單位我們在去年年底做做出查複查做檢查如果有要提供可以處分的案件來執行那針對這種列管的高危險的事業單位其實我們建設民營齁董事長是台大化工系他明明知道那種東西他那麼可怕的齁"},{"start":5706.722,"end":5724.402,"text":"隨時會爆炸的他都這樣幹了那其他都富盛齊坤大田齁大田齁糟糕的齁巨民民安這都互相交叉這些都這些這些場會會做得好我不相信啦所以齁我現在是要求部長跟署長你那天強力的稽查"},{"start":5726.204,"end":5753.242,"text":"平東關這都掃一百個 這個化工廠都掃一次screen一次 高雄人家好像有做了 平東沒有做 我們縣政府有沒有這個能力我不知道 但是我對你主要是 我還有信心的阿部長 這很重要的 所以都去查一遍 所有平東關有的化工廠都去查一遍 尤其是這個做這麼高危險高爆炸的這種東西 絕對絕對 人命關天阿"},{"start":5756.584,"end":5758.346,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們會做專案檢查"},{"start":5787.701,"end":5794.763,"text":"請許部長都委員好"},{"start":5807.928,"end":5833.859,"text":"部長本席也是來自我們桃園的立委因為我們桃園現在是一個移工的城市全台灣我們外籍移工裡面有六分之一的都選擇在桃園所以我們現在桃園大概外籍移工就超過11萬桃園也是一個移民的城市目前桃園針對我們外配的比例在去年"},{"start":5834.939,"end":5861.876,"text":"這個比例已經達到我們超越新北已經達到第一所以這一陣子收到很多越南印尼很多我們外籍新住民群體針對他們相關就業跟職業訓練的部分有提出一些問題那剛好今天來請教一下部長跟我們署長請問一下那個部長大概知道我們去年112年我們新住民人數大概有多少"},{"start":5863.231,"end":5867.253,"text":"去年新住民的人數對沒關係這個沒關係大概跟這個部長講我們經過我們的70萬"},{"start":5875.02,"end":5892.499,"text":"他是總共總共我們新住民的人數喔內政部統計喔是59萬多啦那所以他在去年的部分針對新住民喔已經超越了我們的原住民那加上如果新熱帶喔已經超過百萬人"},{"start":5893.3,"end":5919.362,"text":"所以有人說去年112年可以說是新住民元年表示現在新住民在我們台灣的人口數是非常非常的多那我想針對我們這59萬多的新住民朋友請問一下我們勞動部跟勞發署有沒有針對他們就業促進服務還有措施職業信念等等有沒有針對他們來提供這些的服務有"},{"start":5920.933,"end":5944.363,"text":"我們有定一些計畫還有那個作業的要點還針對新住民的這個職業訓練啊就業媒合好等等都有提供相關的對那就是針對我們促進新住民我有看過我們有促進新住民作業補助作業要點好那當然也針對新住民也開了一些專班"},{"start":5945.603,"end":5970.769,"text":"當然表示我們勞動部在這一方面還是有在努力可是我們今天要講的重點說當然我們原住民的部分當然我們也需要照顧那現在新住民的部分人口數也這麼多那但是他的就業服務法裡面針對特定對象跟就業弱勢者這個母法裡面並沒有對他有特別的照顧所以我想說"},{"start":5972.504,"end":5985.117,"text":"這一部分我們599萬多裡面因為這裡面我們發現有一些缺失59萬多裡面我們大概有14萬多超過20%的部分是我們這個要點沒有辦法照顧到的"},{"start":5990.441,"end":6005.009,"text":"那就是說我們這些外配啊當他規劃成為我們中華民國國民之後他這些你們公佈的這些作業的要點就不能照顧到他"},{"start":6005.709,"end":6028.139,"text":"那這裡面我們目前大概有21萬多的外配就是印尼馬來西亞菲律賓越南等等這些外配他有20萬人但是他規劃之後就這些要點就沒有辦法照顧他這個比例非常高大概有七成所以想說針對我們這部分"},{"start":6030.82,"end":6057.516,"text":"是不是我們有注意到這一部分因為有很多的他們反映結果規劃以後應該福利更好結果他規劃以後反而這些沒有照顧到他像我們很多的新住民的專班職業訓練津貼等等所以變成他們到時間到以後他可以領身份證他反而要考慮了所以我不知道說我們勞動部針對這一部分有沒有注意到"},{"start":6058.196,"end":6084.137,"text":"我這個部分來做一個回答其實跟委員報告這個我們的新住民他規劃以後他就是我們的國人他所有的這些就業就適用我們就業服務法相關的權益都是依照就業服務法所以是ok的沒有問題我們現在就業服務法是針對國人因為新住民不適用我們才另外訂一個新住民的補助所以剛好因為這我們也有研議到"},{"start":6084.898,"end":6108.874,"text":"因為新住民其他加入勞保農保的比例其實非常低大概只有五成那所以這個新住民他到時候加入這個就業保險法的比例我們絕對不是很樂觀而且他這裡面有四分之一的像自營作業無酬家屬的工作者還有雇主的身份這些是完全照顧不到的"},{"start":6109.474,"end":6127.736,"text":"瓜哥委員因為他規劃以後他就是本國人了所以他就所有的他就比如說他如果受雇勞工他就是勞救保他的雇主就要幫他投保他如果是自營作業者或無一定雇主那他可以加入職業工會我們今天的重點就是說"},{"start":6128.797,"end":6144.467,"text":"就是因為他們有提出就是說他規劃以後其實他的各方面的照顧福利反而是低的所以所以你們去研議一下他說可以領身份證的時候反而要考慮所以我覺得這也很奇怪再來講規劃成為國民應該是好的"},{"start":6147.229,"end":6164.309,"text":"結果他認為說可以領身份證反而規劃以後各項福利是差的所以他可以領身份證反而考慮不要領所以我覺得說就像我們蔡英文總統這個新南向政策希望我們這新住民融入我們的台灣的社會那今天有這個要點"},{"start":6165.81,"end":6187.744,"text":"反而針對這些規劃以後他們覺得反而成為國民以後各項的福利補助反而減少所以我就希望我們勞動部針對這一部分你們可能要去研議一下可能這個我覺得有一些可能有疏漏所以今天我們會提案修正促進新住民就業補助作業要點"},{"start":6188.704,"end":6217.129,"text":"需要放寬適用規劃的外國人還有要求勞動部要進行年度新住民就業狀況的檢查因為我們針對這個原住民的部分就業調查我們每一季做一次可是針對新住民我們是五年做一次所以我覺得這五年做一次可能針對整體新住民現在人口這麼眾多五年做一次可能沒有辦法確實的掌握他們的狀況"},{"start":6218.549,"end":6233.299,"text":"還有我們原住民現在有原住民基本法可是新住民現在只有作業要點還有救福法的服務對象針對這些部分我們希望來研議一下針對這部分我們注意一下看是不是有機會來加強還有我請問一下我們部長我們當初有講2028我們勞保說我們這個會基金會破產"},{"start":6248.164,"end":6263.991,"text":"那當初我記得2020年我們部長也有講當然上來你就希望來做那個勞保的年改那可是當初你說上來的時候要做這個年改可是這4年過去我想請問一下你的改革方案在哪裡"},{"start":6264.865,"end":6280.211,"text":"報告委員其實那個因為勞保年改的部分會牽涉到千萬勞工的權益還有也涉及到60萬的投保單位所以這個部分其實各方的意見都不同因為我們有一些調整的方向"},{"start":6282.793,"end":6300.609,"text":"因為我們現在擔心啊你說2028會破產啊我們是那個110年做的精算報告今年還會再做一次啦我們每三年做一次這是給政府一個參考說推估我們的基金用慶的時間點但是我跟委員報告就是說我們這幾年當然要推這個我想勞保財務的問題我們非常重視啦只是說"},{"start":6308.416,"end":6330.858,"text":"我們就是有共識的先做因為我們也相信我們部長講所以很多的勞工當然也擔心2028這個會破產的問題那當然2020我們部長上任的時候也信誓旦旦說不惜丟掉無紗帽也要來做這個年改然後你在9月的時候也說要求要在年底"},{"start":6331.678,"end":6359.352,"text":"勞動部要提出這個草案這個當初那個部長都有接受採訪都有說出這些可是我們發現4年過去真的還是沒有看到這改革方案那眼看著2028就要到了而且現在部長我也不知道說520部長的去留所以我現在很擔心剩下大概4年的時間我們這個勞保年改的問題我們希望能夠好好處理不要讓這些我們勞工的權益來受損"},{"start":6359.932,"end":6379.389,"text":"報告委員這個方針勞動部一定會持續來努力我們現在先首要是先把勞保基金的財務讓他能夠穩定然後其他的面向我們會持續跟勞資團體各界來溝通也聽取大家的意見有關於說要怎麼來改革或者說要怎麼來推動"},{"start":6380.49,"end":6403.869,"text":"這個我們有一個全盤的規劃這個不會我們一定會努力來做我們希望這個勞工這個福利權益的部分希望勞動部能夠好好的來重視好謝謝好謝謝圖全級委員那在這邊做一個宣告等一下在楊耀委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":6412.337,"end":6417.641,"text":"謝謝主席有請許部長有請周署長請部長請周署長王委員好部長好署長好"},{"start":6423.522,"end":6446.169,"text":"關於這個移工醫療權益的問題我們上週在質詢裡面也跟部長有討論過就是當時編輯就建議說必須要串聯跨部會的資源來進行有關於這些移工在各方面權益的這個維護那其實我們也了解資源不是沒有只是沒有妥善的整合"},{"start":6446.949,"end":6473.679,"text":"那很多政策其實都已經行之多年包括像我們在三四的時候有提到針對國內事實上有4家以上的這個友善醫院針對於我們這些移工做相關的這個醫療資源的處理那這部分我們期待還能夠持續的加強那今天部長的報告裡面其實也有討論到未來怎麼去加強各方面的這些勞動人力還有移工"},{"start":6474.279,"end":6476.041,"text":"那不知道未來在這方面部長有哪一些的規劃"},{"start":6493.458,"end":6507.148,"text":"報告委員我先說明新南向的健康服務中心我們後來去了解他是針對國人的部分沒有包括移工而且他的項目是比較少然後有關於移工欠費的問題"},{"start":6510.931,"end":6528.866,"text":"是那這個部分也在行政院也召開過跨部會的會議那我們4月對4月還在開第二次會議我那天有看到公文那就是說上一次的會議是在去年11月21開的那時候整個就是包括專家學者各部會"},{"start":6529.706,"end":6553.686,"text":"大家看法是認為這個是屬於個人債務必須要要求來一個移工來源國他提供或者來建立相關的處理機制那這個部分我們會來跟來源國透過雙邊的會議來做要求那另外就是說我們目前因為大部分的來源國都比較消極處理這個問題那我們未來會規劃"},{"start":6557.649,"end":6557.889,"text":"在上個禮拜"},{"start":6580.979,"end":6604.365,"text":"那個時候有提到針對外國的仲介公司希望能夠針對於這些失聯移工的就醫的待葬看有沒有辦法克責那我們今天從貴部的業務報告裡面看到就是會對於這些外國的仲介會進行負擔遣返及縮容等連帶責任"},{"start":6605.805,"end":6625.381,"text":"可是沒有看到在這方面能不能夠將有關的一些醫療或者是就醫過程當中的代帳也能夠做適當的處理那這部分可不可以麻煩部長能夠把相關的字眼都可以納進來好謝謝"},{"start":6628.644,"end":6648.161,"text":"那再過來就是有關於這個盤點我們職業安全相關的一些如何能夠保障勞工的健康權那其實本席十分關切目前職業安全的相關規範希望在所有的勞工在進行他們的工作同時都能夠兼顧到安全跟健康"},{"start":6648.881,"end":6667.489,"text":"得到應有的保障那其實我們也知道行政院在2018年就已經完成制定了這個18項的臺灣永續發展目標其中有3項包括目標3目標8目標10都跟我們的勞動勞工有很密切的關係那"},{"start":6669.95,"end":6692.788,"text":"可是呢從這個過去兩年來我們看到的相關的規範除了除了大型的這些上市商會公司有比較完整的這些永續報告書以外其他的部分我們希望能夠繼續進進不過我們也看到在目前1800家左右的這些商會公司裡面有提出永續報告書的"},{"start":6694.349,"end":6707.931,"text":"好像只有三分之一那這部分未來要如何來加強或者是有沒有更好的方式來讓所有的上位公司都能夠提出永續報告書如何去監測"},{"start":6709.025,"end":6736.055,"text":"委員這部分我請署長來說明好謝謝謝謝委員那個有關永續的17個指標或者國家第18個指標其實我們勞動部認為說每個指標都跟我們工作者有關係所以我們勞動部跟國發會針對永續部分我們安全健康的列為我們往前推展的一個方向那至於委員關鍵是我們跟上市公司的那個報告書其實金管會針對一定規模以上的公司要寫永續報告書但報告書它的那個框架架構有關"},{"start":6736.915,"end":6750.617,"text":"老公安全健康怎麼寫我們其實暫時有定一個指南供給世界單位做參考同時我每年會針對這有趣報告書有關安全安全揭露狀況好不好我們可以做神秘科的調查跟抽樣來做一些評比"},{"start":6751.263,"end":6775.26,"text":"所以謝謝委員提醒其實大企業這對安全健康那雲林小企業是整個體系在展開了我們會透過永續的精神讓大企業帶小企業把勞工健康問題往下扎根謝謝委員提醒謝謝好那我們可以看下一個畫面知道說其實這個GRI403他是指標那這個指標裡面包括第三項職業健康服務"},{"start":6775.9,"end":6802.825,"text":"有沒有進行相關的這些健康檢查那如何能夠讓工作者健康促進可以持續的讓這些健康工作的人得到健康的保護還有職業傷害我們可以看到不同的職類其實他接落的情形都有待加強所以剛剛署長有提到我們期待應該是各方面的職類都應該努力的來加強這部分"},{"start":6803.305,"end":6813.158,"text":"非常謝謝委員 這個報告當然是我們勞動部責任署做極限調查的報告那我們發現說一年比年有稍微進步但是我們認為說有些產業它其實是比較弱的所以我們會針對我們這兩年的"},{"start":6816.599,"end":6837.229,"text":"在做往後的展開特別是我們跟金管會做合作因為有些報告書的一些規範的要求是金管會為主但是我們跟他合作的時候GI403我們勞動部也出個中英文的對照指引這個也是我們後會會給委員做參考其實我們引領企業把揭露部分特別是安全健康做比較好的說明謝謝委員"},{"start":6838.51,"end":6866.951,"text":"好謝謝那再過來我們可以看一下其實企業辦理勞工這個健康檢查剛剛提到是第三項的部分可是我們看到針對一些特殊的檢查健康檢查還是有蠻大的落差依照貴屬的推估目前將近有500家事實上是沒有執行相關這個勞工檢查那這些黑數是我們未來有什麼方"},{"start":6868.112,"end":6888.767,"text":"法或者是對策來盡量減少這些黑數謝謝委員提醒因為我們現在按照這個世界上通報跟相關系統的嫁接我們現在全國大概6600家世界都要做特別危害健康作為檢查一般勞工是做一般健康檢查但是6600家的部分剛才委員有提醒就是我們從系統去嫁接他有沒有"},{"start":6889.557,"end":6906.998,"text":"做特殊健檢之外我們後面的監督檢查會把一些高風險的拉出來另外跟委員報告我們其實去年開始做另外一個是CMR的CMR化學物質使用的一個世界單位專案檢查就是致癌致高致致毒毒害致生殖危害的這個"},{"start":6907.618,"end":6935.193,"text":"我們另外500加我們做後面的追蹤檢查我們希望使用西安馬物質的事業單位他的健康風險能夠被我們做比較好的watch是 介委員好那主席我可以多2分鐘是因為我們比較擔心的是規模比較小的而且他們對於這種特殊健康檢查事實上需求是更高的所以如果能夠透過一些方法比如說從公共工程的標案啊國營事業開始做起"},{"start":6936.033,"end":6963.968,"text":"除了大型的這些檢查以外那針對於臺電中有對於相關承包商的監督針對下層的這個監督可以更落實的話對於我們從事這種很辛苦的勞動人員應該可以讓他的特殊健康檢查可以得到更好的保障是那再過來就是有關於在做這個健康檢查的當中我們也了解有去"},{"start":6964.929,"end":6987.081,"text":"看執行這些健康檢查的醫療院所是不是在他都能夠有效的執行相關的內容那我們可以看到的就是根據去了解這些醫療機構發現他們得到的相對分數是低的很多是C跟D的等級那C跟D的等級意思就是我們去了解發現相關的"},{"start":6989.562,"end":7015.752,"text":"人員其實都非常的優秀可是呢他的一些軟硬體的設施不是不足或就是有相關的缺失那這部分如何能夠讓這些從事的健康檢查醫療機構在平昏如果相對低的時候有哪一些改善的方法如何能夠把相關的這些資源可以引進來不知道未來有沒有特別的規劃先有人關係"},{"start":7017.608,"end":7033.674,"text":"老公見到檢查的醫療機構他應該符合標準安全的需求才讓他執行所以我們有平和機制有所以看到委員秀的是我們平和的成績那我們現在有新的機制就是如果連續三年不好我們就把他要下架因為我們要擇優太烈所以有關這樣子的那個"},{"start":7034.761,"end":7035.322,"text":"接下來請楊耀委員"},{"start":7069.381,"end":7096.952,"text":"謝謝主席主席請一下許部長請許部長兩位好部長好部長我看部長我看今天的業務報告齁就有關年金改革的準備的部分部裡面這邊還是一直停留在收集意見"},{"start":7098.615,"end":7125.251,"text":"對不對我看你們的給我報告收集意見跟溝通會不會會不會收集意見跟溝通的時間太長了部長不是我不是不是不是我我我知道這是一項很很嚴峻的工程我也不是想為難你可是可是我覺得好像每每一次"},{"start":7126.653,"end":7151.193,"text":"每一次的業務報告有關年改的部分大概一直都是停留在收集意見跟評估那這樣子到底年改革什麼時候可以啟動什麼時候可以落實讓讓讓廣大的勞工可以得到安心到底什麼時候"},{"start":7152.472,"end":7165.921,"text":"委員這個期程部分我們會來通盤的規劃只是說因為不是 現在部長我打岔一下部長我打岔一下就是說你假如說說今天來議務報告已經有期程"},{"start":7167.185,"end":7189.452,"text":"那我可能還可以接受可是這6年來我看部長也已經認滿6年了這個是一個非常長壽的部長可是對於跟勞工這麼息息相關影響這麼重大的一個政策一直停留在"},{"start":7191.272,"end":7207.083,"text":"在準備跟收集意見打到共識這個階段本席真的沒有辦法接受謝謝委員因為這部分的確是不容易因為勞工的人口數實在是太多"},{"start":7210.845,"end":7232.322,"text":"每個產業勞工職業勞工的這個他們的意見都不同關心的點都不同所以這個部分我也認為說這個其實應該要更我曾經在委員會跟部長討論過我覺得任何一項改革都不可能有共識都不可能有共識那我也知道"},{"start":7235.689,"end":7261.845,"text":"勞工的年金改革為什麼困難就是因為他原本的的可以領到的給付就少那廣大的勞工的受薪階級也沒有因為台灣的經濟成長他的薪資等比例的增加所以要增加保費也有一定的阻力那要延後退"},{"start":7265.27,"end":7287.783,"text":"可能會引發很大的風波所以我知道困難在哪裡可是也正因為困難所以才選民給民進黨機會就是要民進黨面對困難我還記得我們在從事軍工校年改的時候"},{"start":7289.505,"end":7306.104,"text":"整個民進黨黨團大概受影響最大的就是我因為我澎湖的軍工校比例太高了可是我還是帶著崗盔挺過了年改我也已經又當選兩屆了"},{"start":7308.53,"end":7330.856,"text":"就是說應該像蔡英文總統講的就是應該要改革的就是必須要改革必須要想到想到想到想到欸一套一套方案出來讓退休的不恐懼讓讓正在正在繳保費的洗男這個是我們的責任"},{"start":7331.926,"end":7359.144,"text":"那我看這幾年就是提撥成為改革唯一的選項那這個本席也不反對甚至於我也已經提案把政府負擔最終的責任入法為什麼我這麼重視這件事情就是我講的這必須要讓勞動者有一個安定的心情"},{"start":7360.981,"end":7372.615,"text":"欸讓他知道知道任何人執政都不會放棄這一千多萬的的老公朋友這一千多萬對台灣經濟"},{"start":7376.295,"end":7398.346,"text":"有卓著貢獻的勞工我覺得我們必須要去面對現在就是這樣子就我剛才講的我知道改革的困難為什麼呢因為不要說減少給付就以目前的給付來看"},{"start":7399.946,"end":7428.177,"text":"我們目前在請領勞工給付的人數大概有174萬平均每個月領到的是一萬八千多一萬八千多可是最低台灣的最低生活費以台北市來講就已經高達一萬九千多其台北市以外的地方平均值"},{"start":7429.451,"end":7446.104,"text":"也已經將近到達一萬五那他現在領這樣子已經快要快要未達在台北市已經未達未達最低生活費的標準了現在萬一再減少幾副怎麼辦"},{"start":7448.203,"end":7476.236,"text":"對,跟我也報告,但是我們其實臺灣的產業勞工來看他其實他退休包括兩個,一個就勞保另外一個就勞退,這兩個加起來那當然還有一些健保啦長照,那個是照顧我們的退休的人員健保跟長照是另外一回事啦我們就聚焦在勞工的部分就勞保跟勞退可是呢勞退的比例呢就是太低了"},{"start":7477.216,"end":7502.47,"text":"字體的部分太低了字體比較低但是固體喔固體拿到我記得700多萬喔大概大概是這樣子啦齁前體前體體角數大概在106年的時候大概是14%多啦對對對那現在現在就是到字體的"},{"start":7504.861,"end":7527.913,"text":"我們到去年年底是14.17%人數是106萬所以就是像部長講的沒有錯勞工的退休的保障我們的設計是架構在勞保跟勞退可是問題是勞退本身有一個現象就這14點幾%"},{"start":7531.371,"end":7556.688,"text":"你仔細去看薪資所得越高的越願意自提配合自提的部分那越低的呢因為他的所得本來就低所以他要再提出6%他可能有他的困難度還有一個固體6%固體6%是僱主一定要提撥的對我知道那6%就是"},{"start":7558.831,"end":7560.998,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7561.636,"end":7588.729,"text":"那6%呢是大家都有我現在講的是6加6特別是以薪資低的勞工來看6加6才足以保障他的退休生活那因為他假如說本來就低薪他可以領的勞保給付本來就低"},{"start":7590.051,"end":7603.167,"text":"然後呢他又因為職涯的過程生活的所需教養子女孝敬父母所以他可能要自提這6%對他來講就馬上面臨生活的困頓"},{"start":7610.543,"end":7632.103,"text":"部長你懂我的意思嗎?我知道我知道不過當然啦如果是低薪的齁可能多數都是低薪的低薪的字題很少啦對我們現在大概有統計啦齁大概平均啦齁報告委員平均我們那個月投保薪資大概就是平均大概3萬7啦齁如果以3萬7來看喔他的勞保"},{"start":7633.602,"end":7646.519,"text":"應照按照現在限制他大概是領1萬7左右然後再如果他的再加上勞退就是固體只算固體不算自體啦齁大概1萬所以這個加起來勞保加勞退大概有27700"},{"start":7648.875,"end":7673.907,"text":"就是像一個退休勞工以平均的月頭保薪資來看如果是37000平均大概我們抓大概37000他這樣領起來有27000多對啊這種平均值就是這種平均值就是比較看不到看不到真正弱勢的啦保障弱勢呢是民進黨邁向執政最重要的一個一個一個"},{"start":7675.007,"end":7675.027,"text":"對對對因為"},{"start":7701.347,"end":7712.584,"text":"我也知道很困難可是我常說不困難的事情怎麼輪得到我們做呢那不然我最後問一個問題就是"},{"start":7715.882,"end":7734.21,"text":"本席已經提出來政府擔負最終的支付責任的保證那這樣子的提案 勞動部這邊的立場會支持嗎?我們支持好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員 我們先來休息10分鐘"},{"start":7761.647,"end":7762.127,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8405.333,"end":8412.577,"text":"好接下來請王玉明委員好謝謝主席我們請這個勞動部部長請許部長王委員好部長好部長你記不記得過去你曾經說過就是即使你摘了烏紗帽也要進行年金改革勞保年金改革你有沒有說過這句話這句話不是我說的是在訪問的時候那個那個"},{"start":8434.91,"end":8436.351,"text":"關羽老寶負債13兆即將在2028年破產你到底想改還是不想改"},{"start":8451.52,"end":8454.583,"text":"有沒有改革的計畫到目前為止本席看到就是我們的這一些老年給付金額過去10年你看這個圖我們從102年到這個111年他其實是暴增了兩倍"},{"start":8468.136,"end":8492.097,"text":"那這個所有的這個精算報告都已經直指2028年其實就要年金就要破產但是到目前為止本期都沒有看到到底我們主責的勞動部你的年金改革的計畫到底在哪裡喔過去蔡總統也曾經說要軍工教勞一起改"},{"start":8492.977,"end":8520.086,"text":"結果軍公教年改已經完成了但是我們有關於勞保年金的改革到現在遲遲未上路遲遲未啟動本期想要救教部長這個問題到底是出在哪裡是你作為勞動部長你不敢去提方案不敢改還是有更上層告訴你說千萬不要動不要有任何的計畫"},{"start":8521.516,"end":8531.046,"text":"到底是哪一個是你自己沒有改革計畫還是上面有交代說我們只要改軍公教就好勞保根本不用改這個問題我們一直在很審慎的在做一些研議"},{"start":8536.277,"end":8553.027,"text":"有嗎有那報告委員因為主要幾個面向那委員應該也清楚因為整個財務要改其實勞保年改的目的他是在要解決財務的問題是那解決財務的問題當然這裡面就有幾個面向一定要去做討論我這麼說"},{"start":8555.188,"end":8576.207,"text":"好那這個當然就是包括費率的調整的部分包括月平均薪資的採集年間包括年資給付率是不是要調整還有就是撥補因為不管怎麼樣這個撥補是一定要的因為說了面向它都是連動的我知道但是撥補可以解決整個勞保年金要破產的問題嗎撥補沒有辦法完全解決撥補是啊而且你現在撥補"},{"start":8579.85,"end":8606.651,"text":"是幾百億欸又不是說一兩千億對報告委今年是到一千兩百億再加特約預算是一共一千三那我是跟委員報告就是說這個撥補其實對不能完全解決問題但是其實對我們基金的一個財務的穩定是有幫助那你這是短期的救急啊但是就廣大的一千萬的勞工來講短期的救急方案這是解決之道嗎這個蔡政府執政已經八年囉"},{"start":8610.634,"end":8627.666,"text":"還有多少個勞工的8年可以拖延或者是等待那如果大家面對問題就只是這樣子歸縮起來然後呢不敢提任何方案我覺得這不是一個負責任的執政黨該有的作為吧我覺得報告委員這個問題當然一定要去面對處理"},{"start":8629.247,"end":8653.959,"text":"什麼時候要面對就是說什麼時候要提方案我是幫廣大的勞工因為周遭都有勞工朋友說媒體都這樣子在報就是說2028年要破產那這些年輕的勞工就很擔心我必須真的還是要讓委員因為這個所謂的破產是基金的用完這個部分其實是整個財務他可能會面臨這個用慶的這個問題但是"},{"start":8657.24,"end":8672.172,"text":"對於勞工的權益因為這是政府辦的保險政府一定會付給負的責任因為我很怕有時候一講破產這句話勞工要不了解他有時候我到時候是不是沒有錢可以領了是啊因為你的收支就是不平衡因為你現在負債已經13兆啦我必須這麼說還是要利用這個機會因為我一定要跟勞工朋友講說這個基金用盡並不代表你就領不到錢因為這是政府辦的保險"},{"start":8682.04,"end":8708.332,"text":"政府一定會負幾負責任所以我說但是你一個保險呈現出來的負債這麼高勞工擔心也是合理啊勞工擔心當然他擔心他希望我們財務解決我們這個讓他能夠穩定然後他這個能夠永續但是因為你沒有解決方案啊方案我跟委員報告我們方案就沒有方案啊方案還在你劇當中啊因為方案委員部長你已經做幾年了七年了吧"},{"start":8709.292,"end":8709.812,"text":"我們會在這樣穩定的財務基礎上"},{"start":8725.021,"end":8725.721,"text":"我根本沒提出任何的關於如何解決勞保"},{"start":8740.686,"end":8751.208,"text":"年金破產的問題沒有任何方案欸你們現在你們的官網你自己看你們的年金改革你們一直停滯在這個疫苗收集的階段因為目前沒有方案就是說因為還沒有一定的共識啦你根本會也沒有開啊怎麼會有共識你們根本不敢走出踏出那一步因為只要一開始行動你們就怕被檢討"},{"start":8767.851,"end":8787.281,"text":"因為那個不是我參與但是在這年金改革委員會其實有討論到老跑的問題大概是幾個面向大家都知道啦只是說這個面向你到底要怎麼去做處理所以你現在到底是你不能改還是不敢改還是上面有交代說先不要動不是都不是我覺得我現在還是要"},{"start":8788.562,"end":8816.997,"text":"持續我的意思說還是要勞資團體部長我們還是要你讓本席看到就沒有持續啦好啦這個問題我就是要讓部長知道說這是重中之重作為執政黨哪有那麼好當該扛的就是要扛該解決的要面對就是要面對嘛但是你們這樣子一直拖延一拖再拖其實很多勞工心裡的那個擔憂是真的因為這樣子沒有根本解決問題這是第一個齁第二個我要問你那個"},{"start":8817.777,"end":8839.979,"text":"台印的MOU你們什麼時候會送行政院?送了沒?還沒報告委員因為我們2月26接到嘛那知道我們就是按照條約地鐵法的規定我們30天也就我3月26之前會送進去然後因為現在在他們在簽辦當中3月26會送到行政院對對那什麼時候會送立法院?4月初?"},{"start":8841.841,"end":8871.241,"text":"就是行政院被查之後我們就會送那個立法院這裡好所以是大概4月初會送進來立法院嗎可能應該是4月就是你們沒有時間表嗎不是因為要等行政院被查啦他回文給我們說被查我們就會送那個立法院應該4月我跟差不多了這個本期上個禮拜我有接見很多的這個移工團體他們很關心這件事情"},{"start":8871.901,"end":8890.692,"text":"第一個他們有反映到有關於台印要簽MOU這件事情他們希望要能達到G2G就是政府對政府而且希望這個是唯一方案因為他們已經看到現行的執聘中心這個相關的制度還有很多缺失你們也沒有改"},{"start":8891.112,"end":8918.886,"text":"但是他們認為這個台印因為部長你有說會是從小規模開始那既然小規模就可以用一個新的做法來做這件事情部長你是不是可以承諾這些勞工團體會全力的來研議G2G的方案會會齁好你答應了齁好那另外一個呢就是這些勞工團體說最近我們跟印尼還要再次簽MOU你知道吧"},{"start":8920.92,"end":8939.597,"text":"應該是1月屬的,境外遠洋漁工對,是關於遠洋漁工那連這樣子印尼的官方他還邀台灣的漁工團體透過視訊在簽MOU之前他要了解這些團體的想法我覺得印尼這樣的做法非常的進步"},{"start":8940.037,"end":8966.656,"text":"就是他連我們臺灣的移工團體的意見都充分尊重然後再納入他的意見再來簽MOU但是反觀我們的做法我們是簽了MOU之後現在事後才要來開相關的會議再來收集意見而這些移工團體告訴我說你們之前什麼都沒有邀請他們而他們是最關心就是有關於這些這些外籍移工的問題為什麼你不邀他們呢"},{"start":8967.757,"end":8970.718,"text":"國會報告因為其實我們歷來包括之前的5個來源國我記得到6個了其實還有馬來西亞過去我們都是都沒有徵詢團體的意見都沒有那你要改變做法部長你可以改變一個好的做法你要比前面更進步啊那我問你那後面的"},{"start":8987.426,"end":8991.889,"text":"你將來要開的這一些會議算是本席有問過嗎你是不是可以承諾讓這一些比較有代表性的移工團體讓他們有機會進到你的會議小組裡面我覺得他們真的是真正關心移工相關權益的這一群人不要把他們排除在外"},{"start":9005.938,"end":9022.012,"text":"讓他們的意見納進來才可以讓我們整個台印雙方未來的這一個MLU的內容是更完備或是未來的制度設計更兼顧到這一些移工的權益是不是可以承諾邀我們這一些代表性的移工團體可以進來你的委員會"},{"start":9026.455,"end":9046.785,"text":"我希望今天部長的承諾要做到讓這些擴大讓這些公民團體的參與只有好處沒有壞處因為我們可以把各式各樣的情況設想得最周到然後讓這些外籍移工來到台灣之後不要有被剝削而是他的權益都可以得到最周延的保障達到雙贏的目標好不好好謝謝部長"},{"start":9051.541,"end":9055.005,"text":"謝謝王委員接下來請李昆成委員謝謝主席來有請我們許部長請許部長"},{"start":9071.96,"end":9087.208,"text":"立委員好部長好這個我過去在擔任市議員的時候然後也常常會介紹那些勞資爭議的陳情案件還蠻多的那時候就是勞工局會做處理那我這個就幾個這個"},{"start":9089.069,"end":9096.193,"text":"案件的這個數字請教一下部長我們是109年勞動事件處理法實施之後然後這個勞資爭議案件的統計從109年到112年那這個109年是27000到112年是26000大概有稍微減少一點點但是其中受到這個"},{"start":9111.423,"end":9135.172,"text":"送到地方法院受理的案件這4年來大概平均大概都1萬件左右那我看到這個司法院他們的這個新聞稿他上面寫說這個勞動的調解案或是訴訟案平均的這個終結的天數這個63.47天還有116.35天那也少於法定期間的90天跟180天那所以呢"},{"start":9136.992,"end":9160.88,"text":"這個勞動事件調節成立率57%大概快六成那對勞方來講是相對是有利的那所以這個本席請教這個部長就統計來看勞資爭議的案件法院審理可以得到快速的處理但是呢而且對勞方是有利的但是勞資爭議的案件呢並沒有顯著的減少那部長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":9164.178,"end":9186.723,"text":"因為勞動事件法當初也是要讓這些讓勞工願意然後便於使用這個訴訟程序來解決爭端所以我覺得這個訴訟案件會增加這個其實就是說對勞犬保障來講並沒有說不好我也沒有說不好我就說這個勞資爭議案件也沒有減少"},{"start":9190.014,"end":9207.525,"text":"那所以就表示說當然如何減少勞資爭議那這個要從他們譬如說爭議的原因然後去探討然後我的意思是說那其實我們一般都希望說能夠勞資能夠去協調就協調也不一定最後是上法院"},{"start":9209.186,"end":9225.675,"text":"可是我也發現臺灣的資方寧願請律師上法院也不願意給勞工合法的勞動條件因為我看這一個地方受理的案件平均來講也都是一萬件左右其實也沒有減少"},{"start":9227.423,"end":9248.561,"text":"因為這個當然就是有時候資方他的意願等等這個也沒有辦法因為其實我們在做這個調處的時候那其實比如說勞工局他們會去資方調閱相關的一些文件然後讓資方也覺得說勞工局有在重視這件事情但是他們最後"},{"start":9249.261,"end":9271.853,"text":"大概平均下來都還是有大概接近三分之一吼他們還是最後還是上了法院吼案件也沒有減少啦吼我用意在這裡啦就是說欸如果有人是希望說能夠吼盡量不要對啊還是不然你你我們還是希望說站在老方的這個角度來講嘛所以報告委員我們其實也是行政跟司法的條件我們都還是維持雙軌啦"},{"start":9273.214,"end":9283.5,"text":"好那其實在像剛剛您講的那個法院的調解大概57%我們大概勞動部這邊行政調解大概都一半以上我的意思是說齁這個還是站在勞方的立場齁就是能夠協調就協調這個不鼓勵齁"},{"start":9290.443,"end":9306.557,"text":"這資方跟勞方打官司啦我是看那個數字齁大概沒有什麼顯著下講好我再問你一下齁我們在2004年開放家庭幫傭齁那家庭幫傭的這一個其實標準是很嚴格啦齁這個有三個條件齁就有三名以上"},{"start":9307.438,"end":9329.497,"text":"那個年齡6歲以下的子女或是說4名以上齁年齡12歲以下的子女而且其中兩名是年齡6歲以下或是累積點數滿16點齁那當然你們有一個累積點數表啦齁那可是齁就目前來講我們都是少子化齁然後呢如果是這個有3個小孩齁除非齁你一次三胞胎啦不然齁一次一胎齁跨了6年齁"},{"start":9330.878,"end":9346.895,"text":"這個總是就是不符合資格因為你可能到第三胎齁這個你的這個長這個這是老大齁有可能就是超過了啦齁然後部長你應該知道齁其實現在從2021年開始齁我們已經連續37個月齁生不如死你知道生不如死是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":9350.195,"end":9376.787,"text":"死亡比出生多所以說我本席就是有接到一個案例就是說他們在這個申請的時候那其實是符合資格的那可是呢他因為這一個幫養就是在照顧小孩方面出了一些問題那所以他必須就是要換掉但是當他換掉的時候當初申請的時候是符合資格但是要換的時候老大已經超過6歲了就不符合資格了"},{"start":9377.447,"end":9405.326,"text":"那其實我有請你們的這個勞動力發展所來做過這一個說明然後他們也有給予協助但是我個人是認為就是說我們對家庭幫傭的這一個制度在現在少子化的情況之下這其實是有點限制是有點嚴格剛剛三個條件我是想請這個勞動部回去檢討一下就是說你們資格條件能不能放寬因為現在是少子化的情況那第二個就是說"},{"start":9406.708,"end":9417.519,"text":"這個有關家庭看護的這部分他其實就比幫用都還要再寬鬆一點比如說那個家庭看護他有這個地補的制度他不用重新申請然後甚至的也縮短了這個"},{"start":9418.251,"end":9418.271,"text":"部長．"},{"start":9446.135,"end":9473.686,"text":"包括這個我們來檢討啦但是因為這個部分其實也有不同的團體有不同我知道有不同的團體啦所以我們這部分會再來做一些因為條件的確是嚴格的一點我們現在少死化情況那麼嚴重我們要鼓勵多生鼓勵多生我們也做了很多的這一些托育政策那有關這個齁這個有關家庭包容這部分本席是認為是可以再放鬆一點啦不要給家庭造成太大的壓力啦好不好"},{"start":9474.726,"end":9488.635,"text":"當然有不同團體有不同意見我們也是有借到相關的陳情好不好來做個橫評一下再稍微再調整一下好謝謝主席謝謝李坤澄委員接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":9502.642,"end":9506.572,"text":"好謝謝主席喔是不是請我們這個許部長請許部長"},{"start":9511.021,"end":9537.887,"text":"林委員好部長好我們知道這個消除婦女歧視一切形式的這個歧視公約C鬥公約我們的國家報告是4年要報告一次嘛對不對然後這4年裡面我們最近的一次報告是111年的第4次國家報告會議結論在這個性平意見上有關的就有一個叫家庭育兒和工作的平衡他關切的重點是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":9540.711,"end":9555.336,"text":"就是讓消除婦女所有一切的歧視CEDAW公約我們的國家報告跟你們的業務有關的是什麼應該就是能夠在育兒上更有更友善的措施"},{"start":9557.373,"end":9570.87,"text":"我先來講他為了提升婦女人權和促進性別平等的重要成果他公開發表了86點的結論性意見還有建議那跟你們最直接相關第49點和第50點是這樣說的"},{"start":9574.514,"end":9593.395,"text":"第49說台灣已經列為全球最低出生率的國家之一國際審查委員會發現造成這個現象的關鍵因素是非常薄弱零散且模糊的產價和育嬰制度儘管台灣的育嬰制度最近有一些彈性"},{"start":9594.016,"end":9601.521,"text":"但他仍然很僵化所以這個國際審查委員會他關切育嬰價制度我們台灣現在仰賴主要是仰賴雇主的貢獻那第50點當然就講到說這個國際委員會建議政府研究並參考國際經驗改善育嬰價制度以設計一個永續和彈性的制度為目標讓所有利益相關者一起分擔費用以增進國家利益"},{"start":9624.756,"end":9637.783,"text":"所以他一直在建議說改善育嬰假制度改善育嬰假制度你要我們都知道說針對這個國家報告我們要採取行動方針要訂出績效指標嘛對不對你知道嗎?"},{"start":9637.783,"end":9637.823,"text":"你們訂什麼?"},{"start":9637.823,"end":9638.023,"text":"你們知道嗎?"},{"start":9638.023,"end":9639.104,"text":"你們的績效指標還是你們的行動方針是什麼?"},{"start":9650.53,"end":9661.664,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分我們勞動部還是在持續在研議當中因為這個其實委員我知道你沒有你如果不知道你業務單位知不知道"},{"start":9664.115,"end":9685.026,"text":"這個部分的話就是我們持續的會有一些更...我在問你們的績效指標是什麼行動方針111年到現在勒4年一次115年你們就要針對你們採取了什麼行動有了什麼關鍵的績效指標你們要回復出來勒你們要做報告勒部長不知道業務單位也不知道"},{"start":9687.608,"end":9690.871,"text":"我跟你報告好了今年你們2月就公開了CIDO第4次國家報告的行動回應表112年的辦理情形你們的具體行動方針你們具體行動就是"},{"start":9705.982,"end":9723.121,"text":"加強宣導職場平權概念關鍵的績效指標是一年要辦25場的宣導會讓勞工要了解自身權益、雇主要遵守法令你們的行動方針是辦宣導會然後呢"},{"start":9727.385,"end":9739.821,"text":"計效指標是要達到25次一年半25次人家講說你的育嬰價要改善你說好我來宣導宣導平權那我一年半25次代表我績效達到了"},{"start":9741.858,"end":9769.311,"text":"這樣子未免太便宜行事了吧保證這樣太簡單了這樣會不會就虛以為疑啊這樣子你們在115年你們要報告你們具體的推動成果難道你要跟國際審查委員會說我已經辦了一年我不是辦25場我辦26場的宣導要這樣子講嗎人家說你要改善你的育嬰假的制度"},{"start":9770.211,"end":9775.214,"text":"要建立一個更有彈性的不僵化的你說我去宣導了 保證這樣會搞這個當然不夠不過我知道就是運將的部分我剛其實要表達是說我也責成我們的那個業務單位這個部分一定要去做一些研議規劃我們已經跟你建請多少年了"},{"start":9795.367,"end":9799.43,"text":"我至少我們看過工地委然後這幾年至少這5年內我們也不斷都一直不斷的跟你講說我們有一個更好的更彈性的親子架的架構都跟你們講了但我今天要講說你們部裡面始終認為說阿我育嬰留子停薪有做就是了所以你們在這裡面大概檢視了兩個說我到底有沒有做第一個當然就是說"},{"start":9824.32,"end":9845.771,"text":"這個申請育嬰留職停薪的勞工他有意願重返原工作崗位你們認為這個就是指標第二個你們也認為說顧子武願意提供原工作的這個意願比例也上升了你們就覺得他有意願再重返職場第二個顧子武也願意讓他返回原來的職位"},{"start":9849.313,"end":9864.129,"text":"的意願也提高了反為原來的工作崗位你們認為這樣就叫達標了但是呢我們跟你講說事實上這個重返職場重返工作崗位這樣子就算是達標了嗎"},{"start":9866.741,"end":9889.698,"text":"所以我們希望你是要對申請了育嬰流子停薪的勞工你還要進行長期的這個追蹤他的職業變化然後呢我們發現你們自己這個安慰所其實有一個一份長期的追蹤報告那安慰所裡面他研究發現申請育嬰流子停薪者相較於未勤領者"},{"start":9890.879,"end":9914.481,"text":"有較高的離職率那也建議未來研究可以納入婚育離職者和未離職者的比較更深度的去檢驗育嬰留職停薪政策的成效但我們在這裡要強調這個我們不反對育嬰留職停薪但是透過你們安慰所這份研究我們更要證明提升勞參率"},{"start":9917.103,"end":9942.617,"text":"維持女性的勞參率不要講提升啦維持生兒養小孩以前的勞參率維持它不是這個只有靠育嬰留子停薪不要每次談到說家庭跟工作生活要平衡你就說啊我們有育嬰留子停薪假提高了經濟性的補貼然後就叫我們要住嘴不是的"},{"start":9943.407,"end":9951.652,"text":"第一個國家勞動力短缺你們動不動就說開放外籍移工開放外籍幫傭開放外籍勞工不只是那樣子我們的婦女勞參率從剛出社會我們的90%的勞動參與率下降到生小孩以後重返勞動到這個生完小孩10年以後勞參率剩40幾%"},{"start":9969.904,"end":9988.784,"text":"台灣的婦女勞參率沒有辦法重返生小孩之前然後留住台灣的這一些專業的認真的女性的勞動者你們要拿出來不是只有育嬰留子停薪假為什麼要這麼講說你來看你們自己"},{"start":9990.346,"end":10007.464,"text":"這個安慰所我們從這個育兒婦女就業歷程探討提升勞動參與率參與意願的可行性你們勞研所109年的報告你看2004年他做了204年這一批的他持續就業的這一群來看"},{"start":10008.605,"end":10012.009,"text":"他養小孩養到最後一年剩下45%"},{"start":10023.385,"end":10040.995,"text":"那我們也知道養小孩的第一年還是很多人會留在職場但是呢他要面臨幾個階段第一個階段大幅下降的就是小孩在這個第三年大概送托兒所了送托兒所就經常發生"},{"start":10043.072,"end":10047.938,"text":"容易生病感冒藏病毒婦女要帶回家自己顧顧天顧7天總來總去就這個大幅滑落-8.9"},{"start":10054.315,"end":10074.587,"text":"在第6年要念小學了他反而滑落了5-3.4小學孩子家長的這個陪伴然後關心他的教育發生問題了然後跟學校老師要溝通所以他還需要的時間要很談判也要很多但是呢"},{"start":10075.467,"end":10090.716,"text":"大部分的不友善的狀況沒有配套的狀況他還是選擇離職追蹤到最後一年第12年之後呢剩下45.5所以你看得出來婦女的勞動參與率一去不復繁"},{"start":10092.54,"end":10094.162,"text":"在這種狀況裡面很多臨時狀況但是我們看到負育兒的女性一旦退出職場以後就沒有再重返職場這個才是國家勞動力"},{"start":10107.617,"end":10111.301,"text":"最大的隱憂而你們當然想說不要緊啦外籍移工啦外籍幫傭婦女要二度就業大概重返什麼的門檻最低你知道嗎也有部分的婦女她會去做這個倒載"},{"start":10124.537,"end":10147.102,"text":"倒載保姆居家清潔。結果打算來開放外籍幫佣,他們再繼續死掉嗎?所以我現在看接下來那6歲以前婦女都選擇直接離開職場但是年齡比較大的時候可以上學以後他就會開始採取兼職那我們現在看高所得跟低所得來看"},{"start":10148.015,"end":10154.48,"text":"高低所得不管你大家覺得你所得這麼高的婦女你大概不會離開職場吧薪水這麼高這麼好你就去請外傭來幫傭幫忙帶小孩就好了帶小孩有人幫你帶小孩煮飯清潔打掃這麼高薪你不會離開職場吧事實上不然啊事實上不然你看"},{"start":10172.449,"end":10188.021,"text":"高所得者生完小孩要第一年他有82.8%到那個第12年剩下47.1%這樣下降了多少你看低所得的人76.6然後追蹤到最後一年43.0一樣大幅滑落你不要以為很有成就感所得很高的婦女他就願意他就願意繼續留在職場"},{"start":10200.998,"end":10206.732,"text":"其實他還是有很多的這個需求所以今天在這裡我們今天要跟大家講說"},{"start":10210.155,"end":10235.482,"text":"這個獄嬰劉子庭新者他即便申請那也只是前0到3歲0到3歲0到3歲以後呢0到3歲以後他還是繼續有這個就業的這個需求但是呢他還是有薪資所得的需求但是呢還會再重返就業的他持續就業比"},{"start":10236.789,"end":10256.735,"text":"有申請過應留職停薪的持續就業的跟一般整體不管有沒有的平均數來比他還是比較低啊那我們今天講說其實很多人是需要經濟經濟因素他是不能夠沒有收入而他必須要有收入然後還必須要兼顧育兒所以這種狀況裡面呢"},{"start":10260.874,"end":10275.527,"text":"我們看到說我們一直在跟你溝通喔引導育兒女性重返職場不只是這個育嬰留子停薪假也不只是只有這個顧小孩的外傭顧小孩你看到六歲六歲之後他還是繼續在滑落"},{"start":10279.451,"end":10298.328,"text":"他不是6歲以後就不用再陪著這個小孩所以我們也希望說著眼於避免育兒的女性退出職場有心彈性的親職假他很重要他的彈性在於說如果我們育兒留職停薪假是兩個月嘛60天嘛"},{"start":10300.049,"end":10322.489,"text":"那你讓他開放到一天一半天一小時為這個方案然後呢新資補貼這個當然原來就是舊保繼續付也沒有叫雇主付然後對雇主來講也很有善啊我的這個生育的婦女不是一次請兩個月也不是一次請半個一個月"},{"start":10323.69,"end":10343.014,"text":"然後呢他也不用說半年裡面分兩次請對僱主來講他是可能以天為單位他比較好搭配他不用再去請一個人來這個替補這個人力然後總共的天數就是啊抱歉就是總共的天數就是6個月啦我剛剛講錯了是6個月所以不是兩個月是我剛剛一直講錯了6個月"},{"start":10346.795,"end":10352.078,"text":"這6個月裡面你讓他慢慢的彈性的去那你讓僱主說一次請3個月或是一次請6個月對僱主的衝擊比這個彈性還更大對不對部長"},{"start":10358.954,"end":10375.913,"text":"一天六天還一次一天六天再一次對僱主衝擊比較大就是說主要是他人力的運用還有替代的這個會不會不好找人因為本來想說那種零碎化可能比較難找人但沒關係我這麼不是啦"},{"start":10376.434,"end":10396.946,"text":"六個月僱主還要找一個人來替補他嘛三個月也要但六天跟一天他比較好找人找替報告你就是有些輪班的公司啊他如果是一小時或兩小時那個對他會比較困難因為他沒有辦法去找這種一小時的人力來"},{"start":10397.947,"end":10419.366,"text":"那你這樣子講話你這個鼓勵婦女在就業計畫裏面你講到說獎勵雇主提供有照顧需求女性勞工調整或縮短工作時數你這個方案你就不用做啊叫你講的你們提供了雇主對有照顧家庭需求的婦女提供工時調整或部分工時調整每一個職缺每個月發給3000元最長12個月最高獎勵36000元然後你們這個方案"},{"start":10425.091,"end":10430.695,"text":"要做到113年2月29號截止你們發了687個職缺去補助然後你們要透過獎率去引導雇主縮短工作時數育兒女性以薪資讓他們有彈性你還要給錢那你現在又說這個對排班的公司來講是很困難的你的這個政策跟你剛剛所講的是矛盾的"},{"start":10450.719,"end":10457.763,"text":"林委員是因為時間的關係等下還要處理臨時提案我趕快做一個結束好了"},{"start":10459.508,"end":10483.6,"text":"首先你這個東西就認為說應該要彈性化而且你要獎勵你還發給雇主最高一年三萬六的獎勵你的是說提供雇主有照顧需求的女性有照顧需求照顧小孩需求的女性調整或縮短工作時數勒那個林委員是不是等一下請勞動部這邊"},{"start":10491.394,"end":10503.76,"text":"我們要的是這個有心的這個彈性親子嫁啦因為事實上呢彈性親子嫁才能留住這個女性的勞動率啦"},{"start":10504.5,"end":10531.698,"text":"那不能夠沒有工作沒有收入可是又要照顧小孩我們需要友善一點也不是只有到6歲為止甚至整個小學階段都還是很多問題小學階段一放一放那個長病毒一放都7天啊這題我有在處理我請業務單位去跟你們報告啦我們可能有會你試辦計畫啦我剛剛在跟你講說不是每個行業都有辦法這樣子做但是我們先對先就可以做的行業先來試辦看看啦我請業務單位去給你們"},{"start":10533.579,"end":10560.784,"text":"以前不是每個行業都可以一例一休我們也是先訂了啊 對不對是不是請那個勞動部等一下會議對啦我知道啦但是我跟你講說育兒的需求要到完整來講像小學階段要到12歲談性話其實要很久我剛剛講藏病毒就是7天他整個小學階段通通都要那也不是只有照顧"},{"start":10562.044,"end":10575.447,"text":"這個小孩到6歲而已不是只有這樣子而已請勞動部等一下會後再跟林委員說明那我在這邊做一個宣告等一下在05月請委員質詢結束處理臨時提案那現在請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席本席想邀請部長"},{"start":10602.521,"end":10617.658,"text":"最近一次的勞保精算報告有指出你說若不啟動年金改革勞保基金將要在2028年破產那當年度缺口會來到1267億元"},{"start":10621.082,"end":10639.481,"text":"那也成為賴清德總統任期內可以預估的看到的第一個大課題那部長你也曾經在2020年說老保年改掉了烏紗帽你都要做那現在你仍舊是部長"},{"start":10642.843,"end":10665.134,"text":"但是勞保基金每一年依舊在增加數千元的精算負債精算負債所以因此我要說因為政府我們很關心絕對不能倒政府也告訴我們只要政府不倒勞保不會倒"},{"start":10665.814,"end":10689.1,"text":"就是這樣子但是又隨時放出一個聲音又出來又賠了多少怎麼樣會怎麼樣那似乎對於我們的這個勞工朋友非常的不公平所以呢本期要來請教部長你現在勞保修正的條例你會提出嗎請說說明"},{"start":10691.665,"end":10703.392,"text":"報告委員目前那個方案吼就是草案吼還沒有還沒有啦吼對還是還沒有來繼續本事要請教那如果你連提的方案都沒有"},{"start":10705.051,"end":10731.386,"text":"那就擺爛的阿那本期要請教喔2028年勞保破產那如果你現在沒有方案協助喔比如說像台電需要倒我們趕快請行政院來支援因為不能漲價民生店漲了那物價又要漲了那是更大的洞所以行政院也支援那在這樣子的情況之下沒關係我們好好來討論喔"},{"start":10733.464,"end":10740.451,"text":"那就是說我們政府當然要撥補給我們要努力這一塊那在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":10741.926,"end":10771.372,"text":"你可以保證政府每一年可以來撥補這個基金讓勞保不破產嗎因為本期要跟你討論的是應該要去努力行政院你如果每一年撥補的預算是1500億那就不會有這個問題那你總是你的條例未出以前那你要保證我們的勞保基金不會倒啊這才是部長你應該要做的啊"},{"start":10772.312,"end":10780.875,"text":"請說明根本報告號其實再次計算報告是110年那在109年的時候我們基金餘額是7625億那到現在為止我的基金餘額到1月是9088億我記得這幾年透過撥補透過我們的投資老闆基金投資運用其實我們的這個基金的"},{"start":10797.689,"end":10816.24,"text":"財務是有增加增加1463億那我是跟委員報告說這種波幅也好投資運用也好這個都是讓我們財務能夠穩定那波幅的部分我們也持續先暫停你的回答因為每一次告訴我們就是這個方向"},{"start":10816.88,"end":10840.976,"text":"但是每一次一小段時間就會告訴我們我們如果不怎麼樣呢那我們就會這個勞保金捐就會倒這個聲音在民眾的身上已經很痛苦了會倒會破產這都是媒體的報導我一向我們都是講說這是政府辦的社會保險勞工安心政府一定會負最後幾個責任這是媒體說的"},{"start":10842.957,"end":10854.926,"text":"但是人家有這樣的疑慮你就要去提出方案不管任何方案因為在你的立場就是要保證他真的不能倒嘛我們勞工才會安心啊當然這是你的工作所以來本期的立法會勞退薪資2005年實行到現在幾年了"},{"start":10870.836,"end":10898.415,"text":"啊?勞退新制到現在幾年啊?201818年18年了嘛吼那我們法定的這個雇主是6%嘛吼那其中還有一個也就是2003年的這個勞退自體率我們統計了你有新的政策你就要去看他的結果那這一個統計出來是2003年那個勞退自體的部分是14%"},{"start":10900.476,"end":10923.695,"text":"那顯示還有大概740萬勞工裡頭有600萬那麼86%他希望扣我自己啦我不要自體那到底為什麼呢因為自體就是尊重在個人的意願當然啊那他不願意提可能是說他表示你的政策人就是怕你會倒啊所以人家不要自體啊 對不對每一次都告訴我們絕對不會倒然後一段時間又告訴我們有可能會倒自體不會倒啦"},{"start":10929.7,"end":10933.461,"text":"當然啊!當然啊!那可是人家不要自體啊!對啊!個人帳戶不會倒啊!但是為什麼你的執行率是如此?本席要跟你討論的就是說當你提出一個政策之後那為什麼你的執行率不高?"},{"start":10954.969,"end":10967.146,"text":"你聽我說具體不高有的是勞工他自己可以去投資應用他可以到自由金融市場去投資應用也有人因為他的經濟負擔他認為他沒有辦法有餘裕再去製體"},{"start":10969.91,"end":10969.95,"text":"當然啊!"},{"start":10990.959,"end":11004.604,"text":"我會努力來讓字體,因為這個等於說鼓勵勞工出去你要去努力嘛,而不是原因,當然人家不信任你,人家當然不要啊有我原因啦,我會介紹給你聽啦,但是KPI要提高,我會再拍片要努力,好那你把你的方案,你可能提高的"},{"start":11012.927,"end":11030.564,"text":"那個效能的方案你提出來好不好最後一個議題我給他一個功課就好三八婦女節剛過那麼我們針對於女性面臨勞動薪資的部分同工不同酬那麼我們也看到101年的參與率首次破了五成"},{"start":11031.184,"end":11049.721,"text":"那麼提升到51點七三%但是我們也有很多的學者也警示我們在職場的方面對於女性呢他是不夠友善也缺乏彈性所以部長我給你一個功課我要拜託你影響女性參動力的一個參與率呢他的"},{"start":11050.842,"end":11079.236,"text":"這個重要因素他沒有辦法提高到底是什麼因為你們為期定期的三年的婦女在就業計劃裡頭你有鼓勵你有鼓勵因為婚姻因素退出的希望能夠重返這個職場所以我要你一個資料也就是我們看到的是這樣子的但是是不夠友善的那你要怎麼樣如何幫助兩線金權怎麼樣協助女性在勞動市場方面她可以更安心"},{"start":11079.676,"end":11102.242,"text":"他很願意更走出來你帶他去協助嘛好不好你把方案給我好不好你把方案給本席謝謝因為等一下要處理臨時提案所以不好意思那跟證宣告我們等一下在李燕秀委員質詢結束處理臨時提案好那接下來請林月琴委員"},{"start":11113.656,"end":11116.057,"text":"有請我們的部長請部長我來自民間一直在從事兒少工作那過去也在那個到現在也是還是台少盟的理事長那過去我們有一個"},{"start":11134.449,"end":11155.72,"text":"調查就是根據我們的調查裡邊大概發現18歲以下進修部的學生他會去工作主要的原因在經濟匱乏包括要負擔自己的生活費賺自己的零用錢跟分擔家計那不是因為貪玩或是而要去就業是因為經濟壓力而要去就業"},{"start":11156.704,"end":11178.357,"text":"所以那有93的比例在16歲已經有了第一份工作而且是初次求職者可是呢只有的薪資是符合基本工資那是不知道勞動條件規定的也不知道有納保有勞保然後常遇到不當對待勞動條件普遍惡劣"},{"start":11182.701,"end":11208.489,"text":"是10%曾在工作當中受傷10.7%曾受傷送醫12%曾在深夜照理講10點後他不應該是上班曾在深夜或凌晨工作職業安全真的是看慮所以想問在這麼劣質的環境當中他自己都沒有辦法察覺說他原來的工作環境薪酬不夠沒達到基本工資又沒有勞健保那"},{"start":11209.79,"end":11228.308,"text":"受傷之後又求助無門所以想問部長這邊目前勞動部如何對這些青少年做勞動教育還有你的管道是什麼一年有多少人受惠談的事實上是勞動條件嗎職業安全嗎社會保險跟救濟管道是什麼那再來"},{"start":11229.609,"end":11250.471,"text":"勞動部的1995的申訴管道有沒有接線去年2023年因為我們2022年在國際委員來審查CRC的時候就提起說申訴制度那去年各部會都要回應這個申訴制度的時候我那時候在民間也提出來說而勞動部你有沒有針對於青少年服務"},{"start":11251.272,"end":11274.028,"text":"的這個專線來接否則青少年有時候在問話方式跟一般有時候政府部門的回答轉線轉的他們事實上是沒辦法去理解甚至轉線當中他也不知道說這些轉線的人在跟他對應那一樣的你有沒有督導各縣市勞工局勞動局這邊有沒有適切的申訴管道這個在"},{"start":11275.169,"end":11277.269,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":11306.503,"end":11327.298,"text":"我先講宣導的方式就是我們多元然後包括我記得剛剛有個資訊部長多元應該要去切中當要求職的人否則的話否則為什麼我們調查這麼多青少年事實上是受騙的甚至他被不當對待的時候他求助包括也辦那個宣導會我記得112你剛剛有個資料辦了好幾場"},{"start":11331.568,"end":11345.847,"text":"對我知道我要講的先分層次啦第一個我們多元管道宣導另外我們到校園從國小國中高中到大學我們也有做各種不同的"},{"start":11346.408,"end":11347.629,"text":"喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔"},{"start":11363.254,"end":11388.937,"text":"我們都會有專案的勞調檢查就是會針對因為寒暑假都是這些經濟弱勢學生打工比較多所以我們會去做這些檢查部長在的時候是不是把這些相關事上是提供給我這邊那因為有時候宣導也要去檢討到底效能怎樣否則的話現在持續還是有這些問題發生我們會用年輕人比較"},{"start":11389.838,"end":11405.791,"text":"接觸接觸的方式要關心我們的年輕人因為這一群事實上是為了家計而進入到勞動市場的人而不能默示他們可能是會雪上加霜如果少年持續在這種狀況底下他負擔家計的時候他如果又受傷"},{"start":11406.724,"end":11420.58,"text":"那現在當然我們覺得只在這邊你們會去做處理可是沒有拿到最低基本工資我覺得這有點不太妥是這個不行這個有多重那就麻煩部長那接下來就看到那個非勞動人口我認為應該要積極就業來作為你"},{"start":11423.243,"end":11451.805,"text":"的所謂的促進對象為什麼這樣講就我們現在主動發現問題不是透過數字來引力問題喔因為你如果是就業率如果不扣除我們的非勞動力人口的時候這數據是有相差的喔因為我覺得勞動部主業透過這種勞動統計來了解國人勞動狀況OK可是國人最關心的就是就業率跟失業率可是當你把這個非勞動人力排除之後呢的確看起來數字很漂亮"},{"start":11452.005,"end":11468.899,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11469.059,"end":11498.26,"text":"接下來就來看這個15歲到24歲齁不過在這邊也請勞動部要知道齁中錯事實上是國民義務教育齁才叫中錯你們的新聞稿都一直在講中錯中離是講國中生非義務教育的我們比較要關心的是這15歲到24歲不過國中生以下如果去就業的話那童工又是另外一個問題齁可是你們的新聞稿先以後要記得要更正不可以講中錯應該是中離生那中離生這一塊是不是"},{"start":11499.124,"end":11499.589,"text":"而針對於"},{"start":11501.9,"end":11528.777,"text":"他們目前的狀態在就業的時候有沒有因為你們已經是在111年12月19號就公布弱勢青少年的慈愛準備計畫那我現在想問現在成效如何那做的狀況而且如何定義弱勢是家庭總收入還有我覺得去年不錯的是勞動部已經提出少年就業計畫可是我現在在你們官網上找不到這個是一個不錯的"},{"start":11529.838,"end":11545.759,"text":"﹖"},{"start":11545.999,"end":11566.574,"text":"否則的話這幾年來一直以來都是我們民間在募款在做逆風少年逆風少年讓青少年就業我們是去輔導他那怎麼會是那我覺得去年勞動部已經沒有置身事外認為你們不是局外人要來做這些事情的時候很好啊可是至今到現在我還是在網站上找不到那團體更是找不到"},{"start":11567.114,"end":11584.342,"text":"一件事我們木款給團體來申請可是現在變成是你政府要承擔很好可是我到現在還是沒有看到那另外一群我們更擔心的是現在我們收到一些訊息55歲被很多我們的市場機制裡邊去淘汰掉了強迫被"},{"start":11585.262,"end":11585.282,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":11618.639,"end":11621.282,"text":"謝謝林月晴委員接下來請伍麗華委員謝謝主席有請部長請許部長部長好如您所知道的其實從今年的1月起"},{"start":11644.965,"end":11667.019,"text":"農業部的這個老年老農津貼他又調高了那也就是說從過去91年4000其實來到今年可以領到8080那這個是在農保條例裡面呢就是有特別在第5條有談到除了農會的會員之外"},{"start":11668.52,"end":11690.247,"text":"只要年滿15歲以上沒有去領取相關的各種社會保險老年給付都可以來參加農保那以我們原住民來講我們最喜歡的就是農保那哪一些相關的保險呢像公保沒有勞保沒有軍保或者是沒有國民年金"},{"start":11691.147,"end":11716.483,"text":"那我這邊會問這個問題部長是因為有一個案例那後來發現這樣的人很多還真不少以這個老人家為例他是民國31年出生在他41歲的時候那個時候經濟起飛很多的原住民呢都到都會區去工作那他呢是去做吃的參加了廚師工會"},{"start":11717.884,"end":11735.424,"text":"那後來年紀大了他就要回家鄉那個時候工會呢就跟他說你可以結親老寶領取一次性的老年給付他也很高興那領了回去之後呢一直到現在他已經82歲了他一直都在務農"},{"start":11736.325,"end":11736.345,"text":"獲得獎項獎項"},{"start":11756.545,"end":11784.431,"text":"台灣原住民族經濟狀況調查這是112年去年6月底的一個資料你可以看到我們原住民從事農林漁牧業的是占最高當然跟從事營建工程的也很多不相上下另外他也提到我們負責主要的維持家計生計的是60歲以上"},{"start":11785.111,"end":11806.061,"text":"也就是說對原住民族群來講我們到60歲以後其實都還需要繼續工作繼續來承擔家裡的主要生計所以我想要請教一下部長您聽到這樣的一個案例而且還真不少我講的是老人家你覺得他該不該領取老農津貼他沒有任何的社會保險他誤農他誤農"},{"start":11813.577,"end":11821.44,"text":"沒有沒有這樣的長者還真不少他就是那個時候離開工廠對他領完了因為如果按照我們現在法令的規定是他有領過老年給付的話他就"},{"start":11835.089,"end":11835.729,"text":"委員這個是老農津貼的問題"},{"start":11852.594,"end":11867.787,"text":"是是我沒有關係我現在就是要來問您以他當時的投保薪資去算的話他是做了15年所以他當年是一次領了23萬多那他這個當事人呢他是"},{"start":11868.167,"end":11881.016,"text":"後來呢我們去看一下吼他當時是56歲退嘛吼所以呢他目前的狀況如果他可以去領老農津貼他大概還沒有到4年就已經超過他當時的23萬"},{"start":11883.718,"end":11903.78,"text":"如果以他現在他82歲吼他已經可以領將近一百五十萬如果以我們原住民的平均餘命我們目前平均餘命吼是七十八歲他也可以領到一百一十二萬多好那現在我們來看一下因為我們的農保條例告訴他我們如果要去請領"},{"start":11905.361,"end":11932.635,"text":"農今天他其實所有的條件都符合他唯一的一個條件不符合就是說要持續加保他曾經參加過農保那他回來之後他也是繼續務農但是他有一個條件不符合就是要持續加保所以呢他也跑去農會一直要加保可是農會呢告訴他說這邊有寫他說他已領取老年給付他說請於條例修正後再參加農保"},{"start":11934.136,"end":11941.962,"text":"所以部長您就知道為什麼我要來請教您吼那部長我去年10月呢其實也曾經到農業部問過我們的農業部部長現在我是同樣的問題我要請教你為什麼您聽聽看農業部長當時是這麼說他說對"},{"start":11951.348,"end":11968.918,"text":"他本身在現在相關的規定上面是無法適用的我們會後去看這個部分是否真正的具有公平性如果是有公平性我們會解釋如果是屬於被遺漏的一群相對的就是該用什麼樣的規定去處理如果是農業部的相關規定農業部會炒你這個是當時農業部長所以您也同意嗎因為他說"},{"start":11977.463,"end":12004.135,"text":"只要勞動部：後來他們研擬的相關辦法是說只要勞動部願意繳回當時的老年給付就可以那我就要請教部長您的意見如何報告委員這個是我們法定的規定我沒有辦法來說支不支持因為現在法定規定就是你領了之後合覆了以後就不能變更啊所以沒有說所謂我可以再收回然後他再另外去"},{"start":12004.855,"end":12006.035,"text":"不是部長農業部那個地方因為他有他的農保條例"},{"start":12021.926,"end":12041.719,"text":"那現在我再翻回那個農保條例我再念給您聽一次他在農保條例第5條第二款非前向農會會員年滿15歲以上從事農業工作之農民未領取相關社會保險老年給付者得參加本保險嗎"},{"start":12043.612,"end":12071.139,"text":"那現在我們農會他就是因為根據這個農保條例他就是覺得說他告訴他說這個可能要等修法之後你才可以回來參加農保嗎那現在農業部他也覺得他們是被漏接的一群嗎也願意來研擬就他們研擬呢他們提供的是說如果我們勞動部這邊針對我們的這個一次性老年給付如果他願意"},{"start":12072.259,"end":12081.614,"text":"叫回去你們可不可以讓這樣的長者這個沒有辦法用韓式來解決這個是法令的明文規定那您認為要怎麼修"},{"start":12084.494,"end":12090.156,"text":"我希望您會同農業部能夠一起去共商然後呢去延長可行的方案然後讓老保投保年資或老年"},{"start":12113.764,"end":12113.784,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":12139.213,"end":12163.588,"text":"這個是法令的規範沒關係啦委員會跟農業部來因為他們的確是被漏接的一群而且我希望去算一下其實這樣的人不多因為有的像年輕的他其實可以去國民年金那邊但是像這樣的長者是沒有辦法因為他已經過了年紀好不好是不是請勞動部會後再跟委員再跟委員這邊來說明好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":12168.306,"end":12178.898,"text":"謝謝吳麗華委員接下來請李燕秀委員感謝教委請部長請許部長"},{"start":12183.237,"end":12198.49,"text":"部長在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低"},{"start":12202.794,"end":12230.043,"text":"這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少"},{"start":12230.723,"end":12247.439,"text":"你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對"},{"start":12248.44,"end":12263.117,"text":"對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業"},{"start":12263.257,"end":12263.597,"text":"獲得的挑戰"},{"start":12288.314,"end":12305.541,"text":"部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常常在開會討論包括UberEat跟Foodpanda他們常常我自己在基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去調降外送獎金"},{"start":12306.061,"end":12328.127,"text":"就突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多報告委員這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台"},{"start":12330.828,"end":12350.126,"text":"我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多碼對不對重點是多碼對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的"},{"start":12351.144,"end":12362.065,"text":"法規也好來去保障勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何"},{"start":12363.143,"end":12383.097,"text":"之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰跟問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整"},{"start":12384.958,"end":12404.03,"text":"那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易啦一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼這個呼籲所以你到底做不可以做嗎這個我你你受到哪些你不能做的理由是什麼樣外界知道因為我在基層我都答應說我會把你們爭取權益是我覺得我不能讓你們你們的權益"},{"start":12404.81,"end":12404.83,"text":"部長"},{"start":12428.747,"end":12450.978,"text":"我知道,你說了這個都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作第三份工作因為薪資不夠嘛但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益更多的權益我們因應的方式到底是什麼我覺得要更具體否則"},{"start":12452.239,"end":12477.771,"text":"我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那個是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台他其實也有發揮到效果"},{"start":12481.293,"end":12497.822,"text":"有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果所以但是長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制什麼機制因為這個機制我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派錢的人越來越多"},{"start":12498.562,"end":12524.291,"text":"所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼"},{"start":12525.256,"end":12530.082,"text":"不管是派遣 非典裡面分很多 那我們的因應方式是什麼"},{"start":12531.079,"end":12555.774,"text":"這個我未來齁 積極我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝"},{"start":12561.101,"end":12586.19,"text":"好謝謝李恩秀委員那我們現在處理臨時提案總共有3案請一併宣讀臨時提案第一案鑒於促進新住民就業補助作業要點第二條第三項第一款所指新住民排除了規劃取得國籍之外役外籍配偶導致超過14萬新住民因此喪失參加勞發署所開設新住民專班之資格"},{"start":12586.75,"end":12615.93,"text":"故未能由勞動部全額補助其訓練費用．並獲發職業訓練生活津貼．原此建請勞動部於兩個月內研議修正．促進新住民就業補助作業要點．放寬第二條第三項第一款所指之新住民範圍．納入規劃取得國籍之外國人可行性．確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實提案人委員徒全吉聯署人委員盧憲一邱振軍第二案"},{"start":12616.75,"end":12644.25,"text":"建於我國新住民已經成為臺灣社會重要的新興族裔為勞動部並為針對新住民進行就業調查原此建請勞動部於兩個月內研議針對新住民群體進行年度就業調查之可行性並報告立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實提案人委員徒全吉聯署人委員盧憲一邱振軍第三案"},{"start":12645.493,"end":12668.742,"text":"一外國人從事就業服務法第46條第一項第8款至第11款工作資格及審查標準第12條規定僅由家戶成員符合有三名以上之年零六歲以下子女或有四名以上之年零十二歲以下子女且其中二名為年零六歲以下條件之一且累計點數滿16點者使得申請招募或承接外國人"},{"start":12669.342,"end":12691.471,"text":"上述規定不符合現今國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之現狀為減緩臺灣家庭壓力原要求勞動部於3個月內研議放寬審查標準修正相關規定符合臺灣家庭現況所需之方案向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員蘇清泉、邱振鈞、陳金輝宣讀完畢"},{"start":12696.611,"end":12704.88,"text":"呃請問第一案行政單位有無意見第一案沒有意見沒有意見齁那委員OK啦齁好那呃照案通過"},{"start":12707.042,"end":12734.451,"text":"那請問第二案行政單位或委員有意見報告委員會第二案的文字那也跟委員這邊做溝通是不是建議做部分修正那倒數第三行原來是並報告社會福利及推動委員會就是報告改成向並向社會福利及衛生環境委員會那後面加提出書面報告那後面文字沒有修正"},{"start":12735.722,"end":12737.224,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有意見?無異議就遭案通過"},{"start":12760.152,"end":12784.079,"text":"好那呃是不是請圖委員剛剛你們又後來又加了幾個文字第一案吼就照照修正文字通過好好好好那那個呃剛剛第一案就照文字修正通過好那第二案也是圖委員這邊剛就"},{"start":12786.643,"end":12807.312,"text":"那也是照文字修正通過那接下來第三案第三案跟葛委員報告因為很多委員在關心因為邦庸的這個申請的資格的點數那因為過去這個議題因為社會確實有非常多不同意見那因為也擔心到對婦女的就業或是說對幼兒成長造成影響"},{"start":12808.372,"end":12836.643,"text":"因為現在這個整個點數因為過去因為大概長期在執行之後可能跟設備現況因為可能有一些單親或雙親家庭因為有一些家庭照顧上的問題所以他確實有一些意見是說是這個點數比較做一些檢討那這個提案我們跟委員有溝通因為原來委員是說要把它降到一點那我們認為這一點可能會影響衝擊太大那也建議就是說可能要比較留一些後面的演繹的空間"},{"start":12837.623,"end":12854.577,"text":"所以在這個文字上我們是建議就是是不是讓我們來跟社會各界就是來研議這個這個標準這個相關的標準然後符合社會的現況跟相關的一個現實的一個情形那請提案委員蘇清泉委員謝謝主席"},{"start":12861.162,"end":12888.23,"text":"現在有人要生孩子 要叫人生四個孩子孩子要六個孩子 你要生四個孩子 什麼12個孩子 這個太糟糕了 存期委員自己三個小孩 他都沒有資格申請你要再叫人生 要再叫人上班 要再怎麼樣 這個是太糟糕的 所以一定要一定要你不要給我 顏議員你又走回頭路 不行耶 部長這樣不行喔"},{"start":12890.223,"end":12905.994,"text":"所以這個留空間讓你們去演繹我沒有意見但是一定要放寬啦這個很重要很重要以上那那個第三案是不是有文字好書芬好書芬委員"},{"start":12913.357,"end":12940.714,"text":"各位我們支持不管是育兒還是老人都要有人照顧當然我們講說這個開放家事服務工看護工到底是不是我們從看護老人開始看就知道外傭外籍移工不是解方否則老人在那裡現在每天在那裡吵架的很多那整個國家不管然後也沒有配套那像這個一個月你"},{"start":12941.494,"end":12944.536,"text":"一兩萬塊的薪水事實上我們請過那個看護工都知道不是兩萬塊現在這個私底下成本你沒有到三萬是不行的可是如果你這個家庭看這個幫傭兩萬塊也不可能然後呢"},{"start":12957.023,"end":12972.735,"text":"三萬塊你叫他要做家事要煮三餐然後還在一打二然後照顧兩個小孩還24小時週休零天可能週休零天給加班費就沒有了然後可能年休年休看看有沒有幾天我告訴你"},{"start":12973.035,"end":12996.42,"text":"每一個照顧小孩的這個外籍幫傭可能最後都想要轉換僱主然後就每天跟你玩雞然後就說我要去廠工那裡我要去產業界產業界工時禮拜一到禮拜五即便是加班也有紙淨的時候不是無紙無淨不是一天24小時產業界的勞工加班薪水還比較高一個月零五萬六萬然後呢他可以週休至少一日"},{"start":12997.12,"end":13024.08,"text":"一例一休也是至少一日然後他遇到這個該休的都有勞基法保障所以這種狀況裡面你要做家事然後又要無職無盡半夜小孩考答又起來過一天理系休息然後呢又要煮三餐然後一打二到時候這個額略的狀況也會出現啦然後領這麼少還要顧足完結要勞一直勞但我們不是在講這個而已我不是要講這個我"},{"start":13025.521,"end":13043.606,"text":"我們要講的不只是我說外籍幫傭不是萬靈丹不是一勞永逸然後你要想誰需要你要工作因為不能因為生小孩而失去工作不能夠因為生小孩而失去工作這種經濟需求這麼強烈的人不能離職的人"},{"start":13047.287,"end":13056.673,"text":"他們有能力去聘請這個外籍幫傭嗎?你給他們吃頭肉就不行了,一定要去吃頭肉才能夠支付一家所需的人。這樣的婦女有能力申請到外籍幫傭嗎?申請得到他們現在新的年輕人家裡有足夠的房間可以讓這個外籍幫傭一起睡嗎?"},{"start":13071.502,"end":13088.825,"text":"喔居住空間夠嗎所以這樣的政策到底是真正的解決的方法嗎那我更不要講說現在的這個婦女的本國的中高齡的婦女的二度就業其實就是倒載服務和家事清潔在這種狀況裡面破壞我們還知道現在育兒照顧倒載服務的保姆等等都還需要證照制度"},{"start":13098.507,"end":13118.915,"text":"而你破壞現在的政策制度找一個外傭來就可以吃喝拉撒睡我當媽媽的時候我也是兩個小孩的時候我就你知道我最想做的是什麼嗎我最想做就是去上班因為在家裡面要做家事要照顧小孩要照顧兩個小孩我心力交瘁我寧願去上班"},{"start":13120.074,"end":13144.767,"text":"所以我覺得上班是休息那你覺得那個那個幫傭他他不會這麼想嗎發生惡虐的時候怎麼辦然後語言不通怎麼辦教養上怎麼辦然後把專業的照顧變成好像只是隨隨便便都可以做這不是走回頭路嗎那你到底有多少從業人員會失業然後我再講一個我們現在長照是一個福利政策"},{"start":13145.547,"end":13163.055,"text":"但我們都知道長照最終要銜接到保險制度而如果大家長照跟長照一樣大量的這個看護工在那裡要銜接過去是很困難的如果你再繼續放寬再繼續放寬我跟你講長照的保險制度是不可能的"},{"start":13163.815,"end":13167.097,"text":"而這這樣變成什麼你知道變成窮老人窮失能的人沒有人照顧因為沒有國家級的社會保險沒有這個長照保險然後就是有在調請的都去請多了沒有在調請的沒人顧沒的變成家裡面最可憐的那個老女人繼續顧"},{"start":13183.189,"end":13200.314,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們以前車之間來看這個這個而照的從業人員他會被衝擊到那如果外籍幫用就可以解決了那我們公共托育也不用做了公共托育也不用做了嗎全部都靠外用來就好了"},{"start":13201.519,"end":13215.254,"text":"所以請了外傭的就外傭請不起了公共托育公共托育品質會不會每況愈下因為大家覺得資源不用花那麼多有錢人都已經有外傭了其他就隨便做一做所以我的意思是說我們認為這個東西"},{"start":13217.797,"end":13237.113,"text":"大家社會會有這種狀況都是因為政府政府做得太少所以才產生這個問題所以讓我們在這裡工作跟育兒只能折衣可是你要想到經濟最弱勢的他工作跟育兒都不能折衣啊他都必須要都要有所以我們在想說這個彈性親子嫁啦等等啦這個配套要要做得好"},{"start":13244.32,"end":13247.964,"text":"這個這已經刻不容緩了所以保證你的長照這個以外你的親子價"},{"start":13254.915,"end":13260.44,"text":"要到12歲的,到12歲的,也不是外傭過你過到六歲而已,六歲之後北部就不用再過孩子了嗎?就不用再參與了嗎?就沒有親子嫁的需求了嗎?當然有啊,啊這外傭開放了以後可以解決6到12歲的嗎?也沒辦法啊"},{"start":13274.472,"end":13287.961,"text":"所以說起碼要有政府啦 政府的角色要進來 不管是照顧老的還是照顧小的最重要是政府要拿出手段 啊現在在搞公共化 損公共化啊現在還要再開放說那幫傭多一點 公共化還需要做嗎 弄個外傭全部你都補助外傭 補助申請外傭就好了"},{"start":13298.268,"end":13325.191,"text":"然後一個外傭顧兩個主婚打掃還要24小時全年無休看他會不會吃光然後你再社福人力再增加一點額略就又出來了所以我的意思是說這是誇張極致但是我們今天要突顯的是政府該有的制度面要進來啦不是只有服務說經濟能力好的家庭空間夠的那經濟能力差的家庭空間不夠的人要怎麼辦"},{"start":13326.64,"end":13334.611,"text":"我難道我就沒有生小孩的權利嗎?難道我就沒有照顧兩個的權利嗎?然後政府都不用進來幫忙照顧嗎?"},{"start":13337.049,"end":13361.012,"text":"大概是這樣子林淑芬委員剛剛我們署長有特別提案第三案臨時提案有做文字修正那是不是文字修正完之後讓蘇委員看過委員報告因為有跟蘇委員這邊溝通所以原來委員所提的這個累計點數一點這部分這個也同意修正那這個修正之後就給予我們一些空間我們來跟社會各界再來做一些研議"},{"start":13363.749,"end":13364.55,"text":"主席有請部長請許部長"},{"start":13390.61,"end":13409.142,"text":"市長好上次我在質詢的時候有提出過這個我們的移工失聯總數那你那時候跟我的回答說不能只看失聯總數要看失聯率嘛對不對那我想請教一下你知道我們去年的移工總數是722622人一月那失聯是80643人失聯率是11.16"},{"start":13419.629,"end":13447.416,"text":"那今年的失聯率是11.36所以看起來今年1月比去年1月失聯率還是比較高啊我當時跟你說的是整年度啦就112跟111去比因為基本上失聯率是在變化嘛對不對那我是拿我們通常失聯率是會統計整年這個去看說有沒有今年的失聯率是一個時間點就可以看失聯率嘛不是嗎"},{"start":13449.961,"end":13464.918,"text":"對阿好沒關係我要跟您講就說我們現在一定要再努力啦對對顯然不只總數啦移工失聯率這樣看至少以今年1月跟去年1月比較也在增加所以這顯示我們政府的移工管理政策我覺得"},{"start":13465.879,"end":13482.506,"text":"好像給外界的感覺就開放的越多啊失聯的就越多所以現在我們講說這個印度移工的開放問題啊我那邊請那個部長可以跟我們保證一下在移工失聯率明顯改善降低之前你可能還要再審慎一下吧"},{"start":13486.192,"end":13499.349,"text":"我們到時候在工作小組會來就相關的你能不能給我一個所以明確的保證就是說如果失聯率沒有明顯改善之前不會貿然開放印度的移工"},{"start":13500.931,"end":13527.909,"text":"外界現在最大質疑就是說其中一個就是說你這後端你沒有管好報告委員因為這是兩個議題就是說我們開放印度移工我一直在講到其實這個是多一個來源國讓僱主多一個選擇降低我們當然這個是兩個議題可是這兩個議題有相關聯性然後移工的失聯我們也一定會努力來把它的失聯人數努力把它降低上次其實我大概就跟那個部長討論過了"},{"start":13529.37,"end":13550.991,"text":"委員會發言說實質上這些年來這個不要講移工的失聯人數越來越多像我看失聯率也在增加嘛所以這種情況之下你不能怪社會大眾對你沒信心吧報告委員因為失聯率因為剛剛委員舉的是去年單月跟今年的1月單月這樣比較沒有關係那你把整個年度所有年度"},{"start":13552.713,"end":13573.889,"text":"這個的那個數字再提供給我好不好 可以可以可以我想請教下一個問題請教您我上次也問到一個就是有關於引渡引渡印度移工的部分我說目前這個連一位懂印地語烏爾都語的司法同意都沒有那請問有去了解一下嗎 報告委員因為我們基本上會以先引進"},{"start":13577.945,"end":13597.434,"text":"我上次已經說過事實上印度來說的話他當然官方語言他憲法所載的語言就22個那其實有很多的重要的語言不只是英語啦他英語大概有占十分之12%大概有1.5億人懂英文的"},{"start":13597.974,"end":13622.145,"text":"所以我未來在就引進一個我們希望說在能夠讓雙方比較容易溝通適應會先歡迎你會把英語作為一個門檻我們會把英語作為一個就是優先的選項了解我想請教這個部長下一個問題那我看這次的業務報告很多在講托育的部分那我想請教您我看到就是"},{"start":13623.025,"end":13639.922,"text":"勞動部業務報告把112年補助了453家企業辦理托兒措施跟設施列為政績可是為什麼沒有講到所謂的僱主辦理托兒設施跟措施的成長率呢"},{"start":13640.717,"end":13665.02,"text":"成長率上對不過我在我看你2018到2025年你是講說補助的加速都達到目標值嗎那達成值是目標值的兩倍嗎可是這五年裡每一年的雇主辦理托兒那個設施或措施成長率平均成長率只有1.4個百分點那我就看到數量雖然倍增了補助數量可是"},{"start":13666.623,"end":13688.73,"text":"這個成長率沒有什麼變動好那這個補助效果就出現一些問題我有看到一些根本的問題請部長研究了好就說事實上在勞動部補助那個相關的作業區之裡面他有一個規定是員工在99人以下的企業優先補助啊但從數據來看的話你的相關補助在2018到2022年號"},{"start":13690.75,"end":13710.541,"text":"一百名員工以上拿走九成二那佔走了四成的百人以下企業只拿百分之八那我覺得這個只補助大企業忽略小企業的部分可能也要稍微檢討一下好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員接下來請牛許廷委員"},{"start":13721.789,"end":13727.19,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們等一下投影片不好意思這個勞動部長有請謝謝請許部長您好部長這個無安辛苦了今天一樣要聊一下這個有關於移工的這個議題因為桃園本身是移工非常大的一個居住的環境所以說移工管理的品質其實會影響桃園市民的生活品質所以今天針對幾個題目來就教勞動部的部長"},{"start":13751.116,"end":13762.029,"text":"第一個我們當然大家啦包含我們在做這個政策的研究調查的時候其實發現我們大部分的研究焦點還是放在移工為什麼會失聯嘛然後把失聯移工變成一個政策重點那"},{"start":13763.328,"end":13792.385,"text":"當然啦我覺得我們不要頭痛一頭腳痛一腳啦現在的狀況是這樣因為失聯移工的數量實在太多了然後本期是內政委會的委員移民署也常常在訴苦專情隊人力500人失聯移工數量是8萬多人而且還有在繼續增加的可能性所以這是問題如果我們不從問題的根源去下手的話恐怕這問題永遠解決不完你抓檢舉也好或抓也好大概也是抓沒有完所以移工問題的三大原因這其實監察院也有提相關的報告所以第一個問題大概叫待遇不佳"},{"start":13793.105,"end":13813.804,"text":"所以走投無路嘛第二個叫做彈性不足也就是有關於自由轉換工作的一些配套其實還不是那麼的完善第三個是財務壓力當然來自於很多停額周顯或者是直接講無良仲介當初在引入的時候就對於移工本人收高額仲介費以至於他們在來台之前就背了大量的債務那這幾個綜合因素下面"},{"start":13814.949,"end":13835.414,"text":"就就變亡命之徒啦因為走投無路啊我按照正常的法規流程去做正常的工作待遇又不好我又沒有辦法這個趕得上有些是甚至是放高利貸這樣一個狀況那當然就挺而走險啊然後有些狀況檢察院的報告也講你在失聯的狀況之下賺的搞不好比合法的還多啊所以這三件事情呢其實本期是希望這個勞動部"},{"start":13837.415,"end":13846.562,"text":"你要持續的提出解決方案嘛我們要把這部分這三個問題解決完之後你才有辦法壓制住這事件移工的數量嘛所以針對這三個問題勞動部現在有沒有什麼精進的作為"},{"start":13848.011,"end":13871.057,"text":"簡單回答一下因為我們還有後面的題目報告委員其實移工在產業移工部分他近來一定是適用基本工資這個沒有問題主要是家庭看護工這個部分他其實不適用勞基法因為包括我們本國家事工也一樣不適用但是在前年因為本來是17000我也把他提高到20000提高到20000"},{"start":13871.877,"end":13900.037,"text":"那未來當然針對這些待遇的問題我們會去滾動的檢討就是基本上經濟因素也是很重要的一個從那個進步的價值來講當然慢慢慢慢要一致嘛要有非其次的待遇但本席也明白啦他這知識體大嘛這跟我們國家的經濟相關使用家庭都是比較弱勢的也有弱勢家庭的問題我同意所以本席希望啦多放一點重點在解決他們本人的財務壓力上也就是針對仲介嘛"},{"start":13900.937,"end":13922.935,"text":"對那你要該做定時的查核跟查緝嘛去了解到底有沒有哪些人在做這樣的事情然後又有押照的狀況我們國內我們是不容許我們是嚴格在查這個如果有這種情形是我們是縱罰然後甚至是撤照這是都是用很嚴密的手段因為時間有限針對這一部分就有關於仲介的管理你如何去避免這種"},{"start":13924.676,"end":13941.022,"text":"的財務壓力然後逼的移工走投無路的狀況發生是不是會後提供一個書面報告給本席也提供當然就順便提供給衛航委員會委員讓他們做問證參考好不好這第一個好第二個本席其實今天更重要的講的是沒有失聯的移工我不要講管理講管理好像有點上對下不太好不太尊重要輔導"},{"start":13942.262,"end":13968.177,"text":"因為現在我們了解的狀況是大概手續辦完之後經濟部希望繼續產業發展多開放勞動部的配合辦理等等那進來之後如果遇到問題丟個移民署查緝可是問題是沒有失聯的移工如果沒有長期的對話沒有長期去關注他們的狀況沒有進行一定的輔導措施他其實也會造成若干社會問題我舉幾個簡單的例子比如說他們不知道不能在10點以後在公園唱卡拉OK比如說他們不知道這個微型電動二輪車不能亂停"},{"start":13969.958,"end":13992.342,"text":"這不是歧視的意思他可能在他的國家沒有相關的法源可是在台灣的環境裡面這個是不被台灣的社區所接受的所以這種界面的融入啊如果沒有長時間的追蹤沒有說我定期的去做宣導也好或者是協助他們融入的時候即便他是沒有失聯的移工他也會有沒有辦法融入的問題也會讓成本外部化"},{"start":13992.922,"end":14013.523,"text":"那第二個我講的是從他們的人權的角度來看部長應該清楚啦我想這我們就打開天窗說亮話有沒有雇主他弄進來之後然後一大堆移工住在一個鐵皮屋裡面的應該是有吧對不對這實際上來講是蠻不人道的待遇那當然他們可能基於要打拼討生活他可以接受可是終究來講這不是一個進步的作為嗎"},{"start":14014.364,"end":14033.144,"text":"那這些凡此種種都是他來到台灣工作之後才開始發生衍生出這一堆問題難道我們的政府不應該有一定的角色嗎部長我們現在針對沒有失聯的移工我們的定期的輔導機制是什麼我們有沒有要求台灣的雇主你在享受相對低廉的人力成本的時候有負擔更多的"},{"start":14033.724,"end":14050.855,"text":"責任輔導的責任跟義務有沒有這樣子的一些說法請簡單說明一下報告委員像我們各地方政府都有訪查員剛進來的移工剛入國我們一定會去了解他整個生活的狀況然後雇主在移工的管理上他也要善盡他的責任這個部分我們都會去"},{"start":14051.615,"end":14078.412,"text":"有相關的規定去要求那如果沒有也有相關的一些處罰然後包括移工的權益包括了解本國的法令或者他本身的權益問題我們都有透過多元的管道包括他們多餘的我從那個報告裡面你就看到當初就講說一站式服務也就是入境的時候就把這次處理完了可是我恰恰覺得這是有問題的因為他不應該是一站式服務他不應該一次處理完他反而應該是定期的訪視定期的了解狀況"},{"start":14079.332,"end":14100.999,"text":"好不好一樣因為時間到了啦我也不要耽誤會議時間針對僱主在這一部分的輔導管理的一些責任還有仲介業者也許在裡面也要擔負一定的社會責任嘛對不對有沒有給產業一定的管理準則或者是義務這些部分我也要求會後好不好你會長資料我們來長期追蹤可以嗎我們一起來解決這個問題讓移工可以好好的融入台灣社會可以嗎好謝謝部長辛苦了"},{"start":14103.881,"end":14119.173,"text":"謝謝牛委員齁那我們中午不休息大家可以用餐齁那如果想要上廁所也不用就可以直接直接去齁我們中午就不休息啦這樣可以嗎部長可以可以啦齁OK好那我們接下來請劉建國委員好謝謝趙委又請部長請許部長部長要不要先吃便當"},{"start":14132.469,"end":14153.055,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想今天要來跟討論就是這個缺工問題還有中高齡及高齡者的就業的促進我想中高齡及高齡者的就業促進法也在你的任內推動完成那我們到事實上"},{"start":14153.854,"end":14172.976,"text":"我簡單講幾個背景的資料然後我們來做一個警示嘛齁這個人力銀行的相關的資料說臺灣已住宿餐飲零售電子資訊軟體半導體以及一般製造業陷入嚴重的缺工狀態那我們報告裡面說這波缺工潮起因於3年前的疫情"},{"start":14174.237,"end":14200.118,"text":"導致各行各業人力流失疫情結束後民眾消費力回復但產業界人力流失的缺口卻無法及時補充導致缺工情況發生這是你們報告你認可嗎講到這邊你認可嗎缺工廠是因為這三年的疫情所造成的主因嗎還是這三年之後才有這個缺工廠是因為疫情的關係嗎"},{"start":14201.806,"end":14224.841,"text":"包括少子化,勞動力缺口也不斷的擴大但是我們可能是針對疫情之後因為有一些產業它缺工一直補不足啦尤其像餐飲服務業我們是特別針對這部分來做說明應該藝術蠻多的啦但是只有單純寫這樣我是覺得不夠周全了是不是貴部瞭解還是"},{"start":14227.819,"end":14251.321,"text":"所以所以好那我們就前面就不談我們台後面的那部長認為你們評估起來這個缺工潮會多久?這樣大量缺工會不會成為台灣社會以後的常態?這個會更嚴峻啦因為早子化以後這個我就覺得整個人口勞動力人口他其實一直一直會降低的對阿你們部要怎麼做這個因應?"},{"start":14253.055,"end":14273.054,"text":"因為我們要開放一些勞動力,比如說包括青年的部分,婦女在就業,還有中高齡高齡者,我們是比較小心把它定義成壯世代希望他們能續留職場或重返職場,那也希望說僱主能夠善用這些壯世代的勞動力,不要有這個憐憫歧視的問題"},{"start":14275.461,"end":14286.521,"text":"撞四代勞動力現在撞四代勞動力是我覺得是政府好像完全沒有辦法去掌控而且引導上的力道也是非常薄弱的"},{"start":14287.279,"end":14308.474,"text":"我們其實一直在推計畫啦吼那像我們現在有發覺到說55歲以上的這個勞參率喔比起韓日大概低了到20%所以我們現在有推一個壯世代的一個計畫希望能夠三年計畫希望能夠在這三年內多增加30萬的這個55歲以上壯世代能夠"},{"start":14313.84,"end":14341.962,"text":"進入到職場來提高他的勞參率你先把他定位55歲以上叫做壯士代然後你預計多久要提高到30萬可以進到職場3年3年內了對從2024年開始起算去年去年就起算了去年5月開始ok去年5月那到現在快也將近快1年了嘛剩下幾個就1年嘛對那30萬到目前實際上有進入到這個陳主委所講的壯士代對有多少"},{"start":14343.28,"end":14346.864,"text":"站比是多少?這30萬的站比是多少?大概19萬已經進到19萬了那效益不錯啊19萬了"},{"start":14356.784,"end":14361.049,"text":"我要修正一下,這個是除外是中高齡以上,但是55歲的我要再請他們的數據再"},{"start":14375.966,"end":14396.065,"text":"再分離一下你現在是講中高齡,中高齡就從45歲到64歲嘛對不對?對對對阿所以這個要再算啦那剛剛對數字不對我看了一下那不是不是壯士代55如果這樣就不需要再引進那個移工進來了嘛對不對?如果照這樣的力道阿就是我們移工還是對於缺工這是得證了"},{"start":14397.746,"end":14410.835,"text":"移工是針對本國人不願意從事的產業那我們現在壯士在這個當然是希望不是不是不是部長我想那些背景資料你都比我清楚但是國會這邊有特別提到他在2033年臺灣整體的勞動力重心也將從現在的40到19歲轉移到50到59歲"},{"start":14419.461,"end":14445.803,"text":"就呼籲你剛才的講法也說臺灣在10年內整個勞動力的市長將產生這個天翻地覆的大變動所以國會事務組也曾公開表示人口的紅利減少的速度比預期快坦白講這句話我是很難接受政府的預期怎麼會預期的這麼不精準這其一其二政府預計要在2030年前引進40萬外來的人口就業"},{"start":14447.396,"end":14461.289,"text":"這是國會講的才能解除警報喔所以我才會講說如果面對這樣的事情國會也這樣的對外做這樣的表達那我們的因應知道在勞動部的核心主要的政策是什麼"},{"start":14462.076,"end":14482.086,"text":"那個報告委員剛剛國話會那個203040萬那個是中階以上的對包括白領灰領我們所謂灰領橋外生他是要在這8年內要希望引進40萬那像勞動部的部分就是中階技術人力我就是把現在在臺灣的藍領低階的這些勞工"},{"start":14485.228,"end":14509.042,"text":"他具有技術他心智大一點的門檻現在他轉成中階技術人力來填補我們現在中階人力的不足他這個地方是這樣子我現在先說比較小的範圍因為特別提到中高齡及高齡者的就業蘇慶華也在部長任內來推動完成對不對你看一個數據老花鼠臺灣中高齡就業人口60到64歲都還有39.6"},{"start":14511.874,"end":14536.585,"text":"但是65歲以上就直接掉到9.6如果你對比其他的國家你自己看齁臺灣65歲以上的勞參率低了將近其他對比其他國家是19到37這明顯偏高嘛這你們認可嘛齁那不如今天在報告中也闡述啦齁中高齡就45到6歲勞參率有逐步在提升就曾委員剛才所講的嘛齁但但剛剛委員特別提到國會講"},{"start":14538.291,"end":14559.171,"text":"不到10點時間就是從40歲到19歲會轉移到50到59歲這個是我如果要檢視部長在推動中高齡及高齡的就業的這個政策有成效通過法律的制定然後推動整個執行面有成效還是還是這個整體的勞動力的重心已經朝向中高齡的區塊去做螺蟻到底是哪一個到底是哪一個"},{"start":14562.625,"end":14576.964,"text":"我要跟你討論是本質問題啦都會有對因為未來的勞動力恐怕還是會往中高年這邊靠因為出生少嘛我覺得部長不要誤判一般人要講三次"},{"start":14577.685,"end":14606.747,"text":"我就講不要誤判N次啦齁如果中高齡的就業政策推得好齁65歲以上的長輩應該是現在會以半退休的狀況嘛對不對齁持續在職場上服務但是目前台灣為此的65歲退休之後沒事做的現在僅有9.6%還在職場服務所以我要跟部長討論是說你認為啦齁跟普遍職場仍然要求勞工必須要一個完整的勞動工時有沒有關係啊"},{"start":14608.783,"end":14634.493,"text":"有沒有?完整的勞動工時?對嘛!職長薩爾普遍認為勞動還是一個完整的勞動工時有沒有關係?這個我是覺得針對不同的好像這些世代應該有可能不同的勞動工時我現在針對高齡者跟高齡者高齡者他可能要有彈性的工時啦對阿你覺得你覺得現在的這樣的我們的這些環境對高齡者"},{"start":14635.473,"end":14655.861,"text":"有達到友善有達到彈性這部分還要在很大的努力空間很大的努力空間部長有回答問題了因為我覺得現在你看要讓65歲的這些高齡者因為體育上本身就有一些障礙了對不對然後他還要克服很多問題除此之外讓高齡者要有一個完整的8個工作"},{"start":14656.882,"end":14669.151,"text":"的這個時間來從事他的退休之後的就業的一個環境這既不友善也不健康所以他的勞參率當然就很低我是要從這部分跟部長來做一個討論那你看喔"},{"start":14672.594,"end":14695.039,"text":"我們責任時至於有一個統計嘛,台灣外送人員從2019年四萬五千人的人數增加到2022年的十四萬五千人等於三年成長百分之三百然後人力營養更發現外送人大多是來自這個製造業的基層跟餐飲業這個是一個板塊的很大很大的很快的速度在"},{"start":14695.464,"end":14718.754,"text":"在做一個轉移嘛對不對這是你們的資料嘛然後這個WTW2023的組織跟人才的關鍵報告中指出歷史代齁人才最關鍵的因素他不再是薪水而是職矮的發展機會他們相當在意公司是我提供彈性工時及和員工福利以及這個成功做內容找到這個使命感"},{"start":14720.278,"end":14741.47,"text":"這個是你們的資料支撐會在去年7到9月實行彈性工時的實驗一共有105位的同仁參加參加的員工一個月內要滿足168的總工時但不拘束員工的上下班時間和工作定點實驗的結果證實工作的產出跟表現並沒有變得不好"},{"start":14742.31,"end":14744.612,"text":"對中高齡及高齡者的就業環境應該要有所來做這個因應才對嘛我是要很"},{"start":14760.68,"end":14783.985,"text":"很誠懇的提醒部長這事情齁那你們自己已有結合相關部會嘛齁在偏鄉推動這個婦女再就業計畫然後什麼婦女什麼兼顧家庭勞動部提供僱主公使調整獎勵還有公使調整獎勵嘛齁然後針對僱主提供有照顧家庭需求的婦女比較彈性公使調整其中就有舉出這個系統貴供應商的成功案例"},{"start":14785.198,"end":14813.793,"text":"然後李肅岳哲也併顧鍾高齡也提出了相對的這個彈性的工時多半是這個彈性工時的班表這個你們又有在做啊但是好像那個量能好像那個速度緩不濟急沒有辦法追過人口老化沒有辦法追過這些想要在給高齡者要從事這個就業的環境裡面提高他們的意願這個我覺得很大大的討論空間"},{"start":14815.225,"end":14840.397,"text":"我是覺得雇主可能觀念的改變非常重要因為面對這個勞動力的短缺大家可能對於這個勞動力的來源要更能夠接受這些壯世代或者二度就業婦女這些所以剛剛您委員講的一些話坦白講我心裡有戚戚焉政府應該要扮演更強大的這樣的一個力道我們這個法律法律部長你記得什麼時候通過的嗎"},{"start":14842.574,"end":14845.338,"text":"201919吧2019108年嘛對不對但是我們上路往2020那我108啊"},{"start":14850.188,"end":14871.181,"text":"因為是108公告的109才上路因為疫情109、110、11、12、13、15年可以大大來討論當然要檢討了嘛快速來盤整嘛好不好那我們這個高齡者的勞動率可以提高嘛那這個板塊移動到底是因為你們的政策推動的很好很有力道還是還是這個是"},{"start":14873.622,"end":14873.842,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員"},{"start":14901.015,"end":14903.938,"text":"謝謝主席我請徐部長徐部長好部長好委員好最近大家又開始關心勞保基金會不會破產會不會在2018年破產那麼2028 對不起2028年破產所以你也認為2028那是110年計算報告跟委員報告我們今年要再重新做計算"},{"start":14929.46,"end":14943.484,"text":"我現在的問題是請教你在去年因為稅收超生4500億的關係那麼當時除了普發現金之外有部分拿來撥補包含台電還有我們勞保基金對不對當時去年撥補550億300"},{"start":14948.686,"end":14968.054,"text":"去年 各位幫我們的特別預算是撥補勞保300億分3年去年先給100億然後另外450是公務預算公務預算的撥補所以去年一共撥補了550億是含公務預算的450加公務預算加特別預算100億所以剛好550"},{"start":14970.275,"end":14970.856,"text":"那我想請教一下你們會爭取你們會爭取那個"},{"start":14989.328,"end":15000.836,"text":"今年稅收超徵大概3800億的一個水準然後像去年一樣然後再爭取再多撥補到勞保基金裡面"},{"start":15019.369,"end":15034.95,"text":"那你們希望能夠爭取到多少?我是希望不低於去年的300 不低啊我是希望不低於如果能夠有多的盈餘我們希望能夠多爭取一些對我們財務的穩定是有很大的幫助"},{"start":15035.25,"end":15063.493,"text":"好那部長我跟你講你的期待可能會落空因為我剛才才在財政委員會去問過那個朱澤民主計長他說現在看起來好像是三千八百億但是呢七折八扣又包含他要發行公債等等喔那麼事實上只剩下一千五百億那你也知道經濟部長剛委員他們也是去爭取了一千五百億但是朱澤民主計長的意思說如果"},{"start":15064.153,"end":15084.16,"text":"一千五百億全部都補給台電的話那麼明年的預算會非常困難明年的預算就會非常困難編起來因為已經沒有剩餘所以也就是說現在呢大家都看到這個稅收這個稅收超車的這筆錢可是呢這個餅就是這麼大尤其台電的部分現在他們"},{"start":15085.029,"end":15111.119,"text":"比較講不好聽獅子大開口啦他們要爭取1500億所以你這300億我覺得有困難好那如果在這樣的狀況之下那麼因為現在有很多立委都要求就是說要提出勞保年金的改革方案來改善或者是延緩我們勞保基金可能破產的這個年限那你有什麼辦法嗎"},{"start":15112.543,"end":15136.37,"text":"報告委員因為大概幾個面向大概大家可能需要跟這個勞資團體還有這個各界在做一些溝通還有收集他們意見因為撥補這個面向應該我們現在都持續在做了撥補大概是最容易有人給你錢就立了對持續但是這也是很重要的面向因為所有的改革方案裡面撥補是一定要的"},{"start":15136.93,"end":15159.742,"text":"而且部部的金額會連動到其他的面向他的調整的幅度所以其他的部分包括說費率的調整包括平均性質的採集年間包括年金給付率是不是要做調整這個都還要再爭取大家因為主要是像費率的調整會牽涉到資方的負擔那這個"},{"start":15163.724,"end":15164.664,"text":"520之前你們會有具體的方案出來嗎?"},{"start":15183.64,"end":15193.088,"text":"包括我這個部分我還沒辦法回答您所以我看起來要留待新政府來做了對不對現在你們短期呢只有可能去能夠爭取這個撥補的金額好剩下一點時間我要特別講就是我必須"},{"start":15200.394,"end":15219.034,"text":"我們要改善嫂子化但是呢我們現在對其實生小孩的很多的年輕父母事實上是非常辛苦因為我們知道外籍幫傭他要去拿到你們所規定的點數16點非常困難是可以看一下那個請我們部長看一下是"},{"start":15219.414,"end":15241.648,"text":"如果我們要申請到外籍的幫傭那按照你們的點數我把它算一下有個狀況兩個兩歲以下的子女要配上78歲以上的長者你才有16點那如果你有三個子女在五歲以下比如說兩歲三歲五歲還不夠你還要再加上79歲以上的長者才有16點以上"},{"start":15245.03,"end":15265.18,"text":"這個太困難了啦所以我覺得我們既然說要改善草子化減輕我們生小孩的負擔另外一方面我們在外籍幫庸卻這麼嚴苛我剛講這個這個狀況是根本很少的家庭可以達到這樣的狀況所以我趕快我具體的在這邊的"},{"start":15266.721,"end":15276.615,"text":"要求和建議是我希望你們能夠去修正這個標準第一家裡有一名6歲以下輕度或中度的"},{"start":15277.999,"end":15304.269,"text":"韓病兒就可以申請外籍幫傭我真的有很多朋友家裡一個韓病兒非常非常辛苦然後另外家裡面有兩名4歲以下的幼兒已經很辛苦了現在願意生就很好還給你生兩個然後還這樣的密集的生是不是我們也應該給他們一些在我們政策上的資助政策資助另外我希望你們這16"},{"start":15305.669,"end":15305.689,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":15332.288,"end":15335.391,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員接下來請張雅玲委員張維豪有請部長謝謝請許部長"},{"start":15358.755,"end":15375.732,"text":"我的螢幕這邊沒跳三位你好你好欸抱歉我的投影片這邊還沒有出來投影片投影片正在用是嗎喔好那"},{"start":15379.335,"end":15398.095,"text":"部長您好那在準備投影片的時間喔最主要今天是想跟您討論就是前面其實也有其他委員有提到就是有關於輕職假的部分喔還有所謂的生產照顧假那我想喔其實大家現在這幾年都非常關注所謂的少子化的問題喔我們一直在講少子化是一個國安危機那我現在時間開始介紹好不好"},{"start":15399.176,"end":15415.338,"text":"那就是說其實因為我過去在民間就是一直非常關心我們的兒童的福利那其實我也發現就是聯合國兒童基金會其實有講一件事情就是我們如何去增進勞工福祉來推動這個所謂的家庭友善政策那在去年呢"},{"start":15416.059,"end":15431.286,"text":"日本也成立了兒童家庭廳他們也發布了相關的政策其中一個很重要的闡述就是少子化要解決的一件事情不是只有叫女生媽媽家長一直生小孩我們必須要提供更完善的家庭支持政策"},{"start":15432.566,"end":15456.936,"text":"那我想要跟部長說一下我們看到這張表其實大部分這個我們勞基法是規定每週工時40小時雖然我們持續的在改建但是加班還是家長的共同日常這個每週工時不管是男生女生都是超過40小時的那瑞福部其實去在11年的時候有一個統計是在講工作家庭"},{"start":15459.225,"end":15486.74,"text":"兩頭燒這描述我們的家長其實他雖然工時很他平常工時已經很長了他他要帶小孩的時候他根本沒有時間有將近四成的家長是沒有時間陪小孩了那我們去年在特工盟的民間的團體他也做了一個資料就是說小孩也抱怨就是這個工時很長老小孩也抱怨說爸爸媽媽平常已經把我留在課後班補習班我沒有時間照顧也就算了連週末他都很累"},{"start":15487.54,"end":15504.054,"text":"好懶得帶我出去玩所以變成他可以出去玩這件事情一定是偶一為之的奢侈那其實玩直接的影響到我們兒少的一個身心健康好造成一些社會的身心的問題那我們雖然有留職停薪的這個育嬰育嬰假"},{"start":15505.205,"end":15526.052,"text":"但是我們也知道我們請的人數一直沒有很多吼我們可以來看看這個成長率喔暈流停很少人用最主要是在過去這兩個高峰只有出現在我們修訂的剛修訂這個暈假的時候還有疫情期間那為什麼呢為什麼我們的暈流停很少人用呢我想要請教我們的部長其實我們"},{"start":15531.175,"end":15550.888,"text":"報告委員當然之前可能有一些不夠彈性那我們其實在前年修法應該是前年修法我們也放寬然後也可以比較短時間的申請然後父母親可以同時申請所以我們其實也一直在滾動檢討覺得說如果有不好用的不夠友善的盡量來把它改"},{"start":15551.308,"end":15577.023,"text":"好謝謝部長所以我們現在最新因為我們現在的法規我們來看還是要一個月那我想從我自己的生命經驗來出發就是我以前在職場上班的時候我一年的休假其實有12天而是因為我想要提早去接我小孩因為我老闆是希望我可以配合但是我沒有辦法因為保姆不願意配合所以我只能提早我必須把我所有一整年的特休用掉我才能夠去提早接我小孩那再來就是說我想還有一個很現實的問題就是說現在"},{"start":15578.524,"end":15579.524,"text":"其實包委像這個喔"},{"start":15605.974,"end":15624.714,"text":"當然就是說現在我們也請同仁在做一些研議啦其實這件事情一直朝鮮委員都有提出啦就是那個讓這個能夠零碎化來照顧不是只有集中在一段時間那我是覺得這個可以雙軌去處理啦就是說這種零碎化的運用恐怕有些"},{"start":15625.715,"end":15626.376,"text":"期也可能不適合"},{"start":15656.555,"end":15678.144,"text":"這個我們都會通盤來來演繹規劃啦因為就是說這種事辦我是覺得可能一個制度先事辦有些行業是可以的有些是沒有辦法因為像輪班排班同意瞭解可以的部分我們包括年紀或什麼我們可以先理一下然後先推推看啦如果有可以的或許將來未來修法或怎樣都可以來做"},{"start":15678.524,"end":15702.693,"text":"好那不好意思我想請部長因為現在看起來已經有一些方向有一些方向出來了那是不是可以請部長把相關的一些資料在大概什麼時候可以提到我們辦公室呢一些規劃的方向好他說提資料好我們一個月內也去跟委員做說明好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員接下來請黃仁委員"},{"start":15722.819,"end":15724.985,"text":"有請部長請許部長黃偉昊"},{"start":15731.171,"end":15755.179,"text":"國會推估的15歲到65歲的工作人員年齡人口持續下滑將從112年到119年的總共有7年減少了113萬人口基層的勞動勞力嚴重不足製造業營造業服務業等行業的缺工問題非常的嚴重"},{"start":15755.999,"end":15781.983,"text":"那就我針對原住民的問題來討論因為現在很多這個大量的移工進來的時候衝擊到原住民的就業的問題你們有沒有相關的配套針對國人原住民的就業勞工的方案你能說幾句吧"},{"start":15783.271,"end":15801.237,"text":"報告委員這些缺工的產業我們還是以優先媒合國人就業為主就是說你必須媒合不到我們才會就是說或者你雇主這個招募不到才會引進這個"},{"start":15803.298,"end":15816.976,"text":"所以今天勞動部改善疫情後的產業復甦所形成切工的現象應該從獎勵勞工的就業及鼓勵雇主禁用的兩大面向"},{"start":15819.739,"end":15839.037,"text":"就是應該朝向這個嘛因為疫情之後的這個缺工擴大就業方案從112年到6月15日至專案缺工就業獎勵事辦實施要點又回溯到同年5月1日生效事辦期間至113年6月30號為止那這個方案"},{"start":15846.01,"end":15863.518,"text":"就是也要促進媒合能夠讓我們的就業的原住民更能夠保障那另外是我特別要講的是針對安定基金安定基金的立場是"},{"start":15865.899,"end":15885.285,"text":"從2023年第一季原住民的就業狀況的調查中原住民勞動力人數291424人投入行業比例最高皆為營造工程最多占17.8%且原住民失業率3.62%高於全體失業率3.56%"},{"start":15893.687,"end":15916.078,"text":"那這個部分那為什麼在安定基金裡面是正式園民會爭取安定基金的這個方案那為什麼會有安定基金的委員會有餘力針對這個部分哪些他們提出的方案餘力是什麼"},{"start":15918.086,"end":15946.062,"text":"報告委員因為我們的那個救安委員會他是一個合意制啦齁那每個提案都是委員要去他們會表達意見齁那去做一個決議那因為這個當初他們認為說勞保費的部分我記得委員是認為說可能其他弱勢族群也是會來比照援引齁那還有他認為說應該是不是有其他的包括原民會這邊是不是有其他一些作為齁"},{"start":15947.463,"end":15952.076,"text":"好在請委員請委員會這邊再評估啦他今天我特別要講的是第一個"},{"start":15953.453,"end":15979.806,"text":"所謂的保障優先保障原住民的就業方案這個方案本來就應該有的按照比例對嘛那所以已經跟你們勞動部就業安定基金這個金管會爭取到3.5億的經費這就是鼓勵補助事業單位的促進原住民的就業計畫的方案"},{"start":15980.606,"end":16002.247,"text":"那為什麼這個安定基金的委員會會有其他的意見每個委員都是他都是代表他本來就可以表達不同的看法對嘛那既然應該要保障原住民的就業方案的話是應該不會有其他太多的意見吧這個"},{"start":16006.974,"end":16034.152,"text":"保障原住民的就業跟這個勞保費的負擔的是是兩個問題啦因為兩個問題當然沒有錯那不是就他們的就業方案的一個協助我們勞動部一直很積極在所以我所以我這邊建議說那個勞保費的負擔當然有些人認為說那是不是要針對特定族群這個可能大家要考慮一下公平性和平性那也請原民會再加強論述說明啦這個案"},{"start":16035.693,"end":16040.356,"text":"因為這一次是大量的你們有採取大量的移工要增加的問題也就是會衝擊到原住民的就業我們沒有開放大量移工我們只是多一個來源果讓"},{"start":16061.408,"end":16073.814,"text":"議員．"},{"start":16076.656,"end":16098.135,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員接下來請葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來請洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員不在接下來請吳春成委員"},{"start":16111.887,"end":16113.15,"text":"主席有請徐部長"},{"start":16118.053,"end":16129.103,"text":"部長好,我今天特別來寫壯世代要感謝你,有你真好因為長壽社會來臨,我在民間推動了壯世代推動了三年"},{"start":16142.054,"end":16161.983,"text":"我們政府是普遍沒有人口學的概念就沒有這種長遠人口的計畫那感謝部長這一年來看到部長注意到這個問題把這個壯士代帶進了政府體系剛才看到劉建國委員也是出口都是壯士代顯然是部長帶動的這個風氣有看到他的成效"},{"start":16168.771,"end":16196.899,"text":"所以呢這個這個長壽時代來臨我們經常把這個當作是這個這個衛福的一種思維就是一種照顧思維其實真正的未來這個高齡人口會佔臺灣人口的一半超越人半沒有一個社會能夠照顧一半用社福的思維來照顧一半人口的所以勞動其實勞動部是是一個很重要的解方"},{"start":16197.939,"end":16216.045,"text":"是在這種長壽社會當中一個很重要的解放那看部長也是我們所有政府當中第一個有這種覺悟的人看到了這個問題看到了這個問題因為如果不改變的話那就會變成一場引髮大海嘯"},{"start":16217.891,"end":16232.131,"text":"因法代效不僅是高齡者會臥倒連年輕人也沒希望了但是事實上如果勞動力處理的好他可以把它轉變成國家發展的動力那所以呢看到這個"},{"start":16233.786,"end":16248.879,"text":"部長,我們勞動部有很多的政策的推出,55plus對於就業促進還有對於就業網合作的一些獎勵的一些措施"},{"start":16250.14,"end":16274.78,"text":"都有看到這一些這方向都很好那也看到了部長不過現在比較讓我擔心了一點部長也講了這個沒有考慮要續任那說部長說這媒體上引用你的話說未來如果考慮跨業會善用勞動部的中高齡促進就業資源"},{"start":16276.081,"end":16294.734,"text":"那比起中高齡更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼那請問一下部長為什麼喜歡這個稱呼因為我覺得其實我們現在的45歲以上的人其實都很健康那在人際還有經驗方面都是達到一個頂峰"},{"start":16295.796,"end":16316.337,"text":"好那其實還可以很發揮啦可是常常尤其到5555歲以後常常會好像就自己覺得好像年紀衰退了會被歧視的我就說我們應該先自我期許喔對健康的身心靈來面對說我其實還是很壯的然後能夠"},{"start":16319.18,"end":16330.925,"text":"續留職場或重返職場對這個部長這個作為我們壯世代的代言人可以嗎可以啊可以作為我們壯世代代言人喔好這個因為現在60歲以上已經600萬人了"},{"start":16334.827,"end":16349.732,"text":"我們平均退休60.3歲也就是說這樣子龐大的退休人潮大家都不知何去何從所以壯士代鼓勵部長也以聲另外一個很重要的問題就是這個撫養比的問題"},{"start":16352.073,"end":16352.653,"text":"這是唯一的解方了啦"},{"start":16377.245,"end":16389.539,"text":"但是現在很關鍵的勞動部一個叫中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這個法當中有指所謂的中高齡的定義是指45歲到65歲"},{"start":16392.762,"end":16413.935,"text":"然後我不曉得這個依據是從哪裡來45歲就是中高齡嗎?真恐怖欸因為很多人如果出國念書回來都快40歲了然後工作沒幾年就變中高齡了這太恐怖了吧所以我不曉得我們這個法的依據是從哪裡來然後高齡者65歲幾歲年齡然後我們就稱他叫高齡者像勞動部這個法的這個名稱就已經誤導了方向"},{"start":16421.782,"end":16449.143,"text":"這個其實過去的這個想法所以部長你是第一個當初也是因為國際的標準大概就這樣子但是我覺得其實現在應該有不同的對就是因為部長第一個就是就整個不管世界怎麼樣臺灣都是世界第一的領先的我們應該已經覺得這個已經不適當的不符合事實的所以部長可不可以再因為這個法要改名叫壯士代就業促進法我樂觀其成"},{"start":16450.464,"end":16465.089,"text":"樂觀七省部長我們可以努力嗎就是這個法因為你這個法包括我剛才從經濟委員會來經濟委員會中小企業獎勵條例就在獎勵這個他依據的就是你們勞動部的這個法你知道嗎所以他也是獎勵45歲如果說45歲我們勞參率沒有太大問題"},{"start":16471.96,"end":16499.446,"text":"真正大的問題是大概55歲以上55歲以後那個勞產率急速的下降這個問題才會不然你那個獎勵45歲所有企業都去聘45歲不會去聘那個65歲的啦所以那個但是他的依據就可能來自於勞動部的這一個所以這個示範如果你把它改成壯士代就會促進法對整個的政府各部會應該有很大的那個啟發的作用"},{"start":16500.546,"end":16501.089,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝委員"},{"start":16505.652,"end":16532.926,"text":"謝謝謝謝吳春成委員接下來請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員不在接下來請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在"},{"start":16533.53,"end":16559.142,"text":"接下來請吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員吳秉瑞委員不在接下來請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在接下來請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在接下來請陳瑩委員"},{"start":16568.052,"end":16594.473,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢"},{"start":16595.153,"end":16620.217,"text":"都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少"},{"start":16621.267,"end":16648.69,"text":"報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是8成5到9成上下在一份浮動8成5到9成是對我們的值缺是一成左右好所以你就講成數那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好"},{"start":16649.653,"end":16674.79,"text":"我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺了是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺了9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16"},{"start":16678.581,"end":16703.079,"text":"那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少"},{"start":16705.354,"end":16733.734,"text":"原額沒變人數減少好那其實我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題"},{"start":16734.795,"end":16760.636,"text":"我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長"},{"start":16763.118,"end":16777.739,"text":"以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場"},{"start":16778.718,"end":16806.281,"text":"一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊"},{"start":16811.684,"end":16825.118,"text":"好我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共"},{"start":16828.102,"end":16830.305,"text":"111年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多"},{"start":16842.381,"end":16847.765,"text":"好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次"},{"start":16871.68,"end":16900.7,"text":"還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢"},{"start":16902.622,"end":16927.052,"text":"大概還有7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼啦所以我剛剛把這些換算出來我是要告訴你們就是說在你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場"},{"start":16928.473,"end":16941.371,"text":"那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的"},{"start":16943.304,"end":16961.358,"text":"謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員機械設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同仁已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則"},{"start":16963.612,"end":16977.316,"text":"但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎"},{"start":16980.157,"end":17008.934,"text":"因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答"},{"start":17015.929,"end":17027.635,"text":"我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊而且喔"},{"start":17027.995,"end":17046.988,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":17047.388,"end":17064.245,"text":"會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長"},{"start":17064.926,"end":17079.74,"text":"可以如果在重災重大直在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以"},{"start":17083.315,"end":17110.432,"text":"從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡訂一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止盡的在這邊追求一直在追求一直在增加去達到你訂的KPI嘛因為你訂了KPI就有問題嘛"},{"start":17111.806,"end":17138.471,"text":"主長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各個機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照署長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那"},{"start":17139.571,"end":17155.801,"text":"現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢"},{"start":17158.325,"end":17179.076,"text":"你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求"},{"start":17179.976,"end":17197.813,"text":"對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI"},{"start":17201.82,"end":17224.634,"text":"可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委員不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查對啊那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大值按死亡人數標新高啊包委員我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們還在檢討"},{"start":17225.675,"end":17247.571,"text":"最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎"},{"start":17249.076,"end":17255.309,"text":"有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習"},{"start":17257.54,"end":17280.423,"text":"然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿有沒有對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論"},{"start":17282.731,"end":17303.424,"text":"所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題"},{"start":17305.495,"end":17330.329,"text":"你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告委員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有"},{"start":17331.803,"end":17357.814,"text":"好那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任"},{"start":17359.861,"end":17375.889,"text":"那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了這些勞動檢查跟預防職災之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡"},{"start":17377.369,"end":17403.721,"text":"我丟出這些問題給你啦所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說治安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日益嚴重的問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績然後甩鍋給部長去解決"},{"start":17404.821,"end":17424.415,"text":"那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題它結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的"},{"start":17424.775,"end":17444.324,"text":"所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝"},{"start":17446.246,"end":17475.496,"text":"好謝謝呃陳英委員齁本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉翔林德福葉元之所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息"},{"start":17476.056,"end":17476.977,"text":"星期四上午9點繼續開會。"},{"start":17506.162,"end":17506.522,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15717","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ed26331c83256afb85e5a7d9476abbdb33be8d109af184be42e90e79ee25f84675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-13","start_time":"2024-03-13T08:30:45+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-13T13:09:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16695,"委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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社群組成"},{"start":1771.581,"end":1778.407,"text":"大家早安請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員與組法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1784.025,"end":1811.414,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議．事由．時間中華民國113年3月4日星期一九時至十二時48分中華民國113年3月7日星期四九時至十二時28分．地點清仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福等14人列席委員謝一鳳等24人列席官員113年3月4日星期一經常監督管理委員和主任委員黃天牧等113年3月7日星期四財政部部長莊翠雲等"},{"start":1813.015,"end":1839.884,"text":"主席郭昭吉委員國文113年3月4日報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天木率所屬機關所長及中央存款保險股份有限公司監管相關機構有關之財團法人臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長總經理列席業務報告．並備質詢"},{"start":1842.436,"end":1868.174,"text":"經金融監督管理委員會主管委員黃天慕提出報告後．由委員林大夫等18人提出質詢。均經金融監督管理委員會主管委員黃天慕等予以答覆決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊。請金融監督管理委員會於一周內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其鎖定。三、委員羅賓彩、楊強英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報．並請金融監督管理委員會以書面答覆。"},{"start":1869.806,"end":1891.482,"text":"113年3月7日報告事項．邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關所長及國營事業董事長總經理含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董監事列席業務報告．並備質詢經財政部莊部長翠雲提出報告後繼後委員林大夫等17人提出質詢均經財政部部長莊翠雲等予以答覆決定已報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1892.162,"end":1906.486,"text":"二、委員質詢會期答覆或請補充資訊．請財政部於一週內以書面答覆．委員另要求期限者從其鎖定三、委員羅明財、陳毅臻所提書面質詢列入紀錄看登公報．並請財政部以書面答覆．通過臨時提案兩案宣讀完畢請委員對上次議事錄有異議．沒有異議議事錄確定三、請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":1917.714,"end":1946.329,"text":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告．並備質詢宣傳並介紹與會吳秉瑞吳委員林德福林委員行政院主計總處主計長朱澤民主任秘書徐雅琳"},{"start":1950.892,"end":1967.824,"text":"綜合規劃處處長李毅君公務預算處長徐永毅基金預算處處長黃淑娟會計決算處處長許一娟綜合統計處處長蔡玉泰國事普查處處長潘寧欣"},{"start":1979.926,"end":2009.444,"text":"主計資訊處處長吳淑慧人事處處長游金淳秘書是主任楊滿兒政風是主任陳美倫主計是主任詹英俊審計部審計長陳瑞敏主任秘書詹美玲"},{"start":2011.926,"end":2041.298,"text":"第一廳廳長林魯林第二廳廳長葉吟慈第三廳廳長周瓊怡第四廳廳長洪春熙第五廳廳長林建志第六廳廳長李錦長副審事主任陳振庸"},{"start":2044.941,"end":2052.948,"text":"審計業務研究委員會執行秘書溫中元審計人員訓練委員會執行秘書許哲元關鍵審計議題發展委員會執行秘書林聖賢資訊處處長邱團寶總務處處長蕭瑞勇"},{"start":2072.233,"end":2090.489,"text":"人事室主任黃炳煌、財經室主任王雪林、針鋒室主任倪福華、教育農林審計處處長李香美、交通建設審計處處長李奕勳、"},{"start":2095.666,"end":2111.321,"text":"另外有關臺北市、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、基隆、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化、南投各區制的主任也都到現場請大家一一瞭解一下"},{"start":2113.689,"end":2124.435,"text":"是今日議程安排行政院主計總處及審計部進行業務報告現在請行政院主計總處朱主計長進行業務報告"},{"start":2137.591,"end":2162.6,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士及先生本總署復仇政府預算、會議、會計決算、統計調查及主計資訊業務以下請就重要業務辦理情形提出報告進行各位委員先進指教就預算第一項就預算業務偶演第一項是有關於編制完成113年度中央政府總預算案送請大院審議通過"},{"start":2164,"end":2171.931,"text":"大院在去年12月19日完成三讀審議程序稅入增列160億元改列兩兆7252億元稅出減列299億元改列兩兆8519億元"},{"start":2179.781,"end":2206.801,"text":"九億元稅入稅出差短一千兩百六十七億連同債務還本一千一百五十億合共供需融資調度兩千四百一十七億元以解借債務一千五百七十億元及遺用以前沿途稅金剩餘八百四十六億元於米瓶而且已經在已經後總統於本年一月八號公布第二個編制完成"},{"start":2207.662,"end":2231.853,"text":"一百一十三年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位審議附屬單位預算及中計表送請大院審議總收入六兆八千零七十四億元總支出六兆七千六百三十四億元淨利剩餘四百四十億元及繳戶兩千五百七十億元並以七年八月三十一日隨同總預算案"},{"start":2232.293,"end":2256.772,"text":"送請大院審議期盼大院能緊迫完成審議接著就會計決算業務來看已經會編112年度中央政府總決算及附屬單位決算及中計表編制完成中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別預算以上各個"},{"start":2258.295,"end":2264.05,"text":"這個決算以上過決算都按照程序完成另外一個有關於"},{"start":2266.459,"end":2279.206,"text":"這個所謂的會員特別預算已經在本年1月15號審計部完整審定審定稅入增額19億元稅出8348億元相比以後短處8329億元以舉借債務8029億元及一用以前年度稅據300億元每平第二個按照既有的程序"},{"start":2293.51,"end":2306.641,"text":"做內部控制兼監督機制是促使內部控制實質有效協助順利達成施政目標第三個統計調查業務辦理國民所得統計110歐年度的經濟成長率初步預估是1.331%"},{"start":2318.371,"end":2338.724,"text":"至於今年的經濟成長率的話這個是怎麼樣因為民間消費隨就業市場持續改善薪資提升推升家庭口自備手足以及股市創高的財富效果加上國人旅遊肉草延續國安維繫消費功能預測113年度國內經濟成長是3.43%第二 辦理物價統計"},{"start":2352.61,"end":2356.713,"text":"一百一十九年度的漲幅是百分之二點四九"},{"start":2365.751,"end":2377.558,"text":"去年消費的物價指數CPI叫110年度漲百分之二點四九主要是因為食物類的上漲以及外食會的房租以及肉類的上漲原因那這個是"},{"start":2382.011,"end":2400.166,"text":"那本年一到二月的那個CPI是較去年的上漲這個是百分之二點三主要因為食物類及房住的一個漲勢這個延續醫療費用也漲以及娛樂服務業因需求仍然上漲所致"},{"start":2402.042,"end":2411.45,"text":"第3個是辦理社會保障支出統計本總是巡禮於現年底編佈111年度社會保障支出統計社會保障支出統計是兩兆5340歐億元占GDP11.2%平均每人是10.9萬元較110年度增加1181億元獲得增加4.9%"},{"start":2430.049,"end":2445.459,"text":"接著是第4個是辦理人力供需各項抽樣調查為掌握這個就業失業薪資的人力供需我們巡禮做這個各項的調查113年度1月份的就業人數是1158.7萬元較112年度增加11.6萬元失業人數39.7萬元年減1.9萬元失業率是3.31年降0.19個百分點"},{"start":2462.549,"end":2489.154,"text":"第5個是辦理基本公司調查到那這個109的農林榆木普查的總報告以及109年度的那個人口及住宅身心障礙的及原住民長治人口的補充報告110年度這個是工業及服務業普查目前已按照進程編制總報告而且規劃114年度農林榆木業普查的構想及方案"},{"start":2489.734,"end":2497.217,"text":"第4個就主計資訊業務偶然巡力辦理中央及地方相關預算會計資訊系統業務第二個辦理統計普查及資料開放等業務本總書開放的預決算及統計等資料累計有1868項上線後總共有230萬"},{"start":2515.942,"end":2540.64,"text":"230萬餘人次瀏覽16萬人下載另外一個是辦理經費結報系統資訊業務目前已經推廣到448個機關使用那大院第10屆第8會期貴委員會會議的主辦事項都已經會後答覆共9項均已答覆貴委員會及相關委員會在以上報告進行"},{"start":2542.462,"end":2544.303,"text":"委員你是先生鼎力之子謝謝"},{"start":2566.465,"end":2591.172,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生今天應邀列席貴委員會報告審計部的業務概括祝感榮幸本部依法掌理政府及所屬機關財務主審計多年來陳明大院委員的注重與鼓勵各項審計工作均能按照計畫執行藉此競表由衷的感謝113年度依法分別審核中央和地方機關"},{"start":2593.323,"end":2617.779,"text":"共有7953個機關單位收租金額2兆、25兆、9100億元一、112年度中央AEU辦理情形年度總結算之審核一百一十年度中央政府總結算及副主單位結算、綜計表、中央前瞻基礎建設特別、第三期特別結算"},{"start":2619.463,"end":2640.662,"text":"及傳染性肺炎防治及失控進行特別決算本部於一憲法第105條規定期限完成審查直轄市及縣市政府112年度的總決算特別決算一經各地方審計處事在法定期限內完成審核提出之重要審核意見2398項"},{"start":2644.751,"end":2661.277,"text":"半年結算報告的查核本部及所屬各地方政府各地方審計處查核中央及族俠室上半年的112年上半年預算族群提取重要審核意見55項"},{"start":2664.971,"end":2675.916,"text":"順其綜合績效、順著各機關110年度決算及特別決算、經過修正稅入收入決算即增列60億元減列44億元修正稅出租出決算即增列24億元減列50億元"},{"start":2687.472,"end":2707.958,"text":"二、績效性損盡。考核各機關之績效,否有未盡主者,效能各低。報告兼查案者65案,提出重要建議改善意見於各機關者240項,認為可提升效能和增進公共利益,提出建議意見808項。三、稽查財務上之違修。報請兼查案處理者11案,移送司法機關遵辦者6案。"},{"start":2716.343,"end":2741.496,"text":"通知各機關查明處理者一百案涉及刑事案件與送書法單位者辦理者一百三十五案三、更系強化監督、動查前瞻核心主領及創新價值四、更系推展公民參與以強化諸行專家協助近三年已完成專家諸行四百二十九次"},{"start":2743.198,"end":2772.148,"text":"公開徵詢民眾意見近3年徵詢建設87件3.透過網站主動提供審計資訊近3年發佈154次1649則五更系優化中央政府總協算報告順化除夕順化重要施政議題的查核專章專章揭露行政機關優良食物"},{"start":2773.93,"end":2794.197,"text":"6.導致新興多元資訊科技推轉數位發展導致新興資訊科技三維建物圖書、電信人口信用資料、地址指揮碼等新興通訊技術提升審計效率建築數位審計模組3.支援行政審計行動辦公服務7.加強審計賠率賀值專業發展資本112年度"},{"start":2804.589,"end":2814.897,"text":"平均每位審計人員接受108小時訓練、策進數位住址學習、113日審計工作的重點根據加強辦理重大輸政計畫及攸關民生議題之審計加強查核政府推動打擊詐欺、氣候變遷調適、因應超高齡社會對策"},{"start":2831.73,"end":2859.375,"text":"及交通安全改善等政策執行情形加強特別預算之執行之審計一、中央前瞻基礎建設特別預算執行情形的查核二、中央政府新式戰機採購及海攻戰力提升計畫採購特別預算執行的查核三、中央政府育後強化經濟及社會認証及全民共享經濟成果特別預算執行之查核"},{"start":2860.831,"end":2886.719,"text":"三更加強辦理特種公務成效之準據加強非營業特種基金之運作效能之查核一百一十三年度專案政府設有一百零四個非營業特種基金總數之六兆九千億元固定資產建設改良及合同預算一千多億元本部當積極審核業務計劃執行情形及與營運效能"},{"start":2892.492,"end":2915.168,"text":"是加強國營事業效能之考核一百一十三年度預算案總收租六兆六千億餘元其執行力量以優先顧事業經營成效及國家未來經濟發展本部將加強查核是重大公共建設計畫一百一十二年編列五千八百億元本部將持續加強"},{"start":2916.756,"end":2938.424,"text":"查核中大公共建設計畫執行執行6加強政府推動數位建設及數位轉型執行之查核促請提升數位政策推動效率與效能7加強地方政府財政管理之審計截至112年度各縣市政府1年以上及101年公共債務已有實際數7574億元"},{"start":2946.704,"end":2962.189,"text":"本部加強地方稅制稅資預算族群及公共債務管理之查核三大約第10屆第8會期各處會議中委員提出口頭事變族群事項共65項其中因事變達戶走27項"},{"start":2965.63,"end":2993.105,"text":"．韓報．大宴財政與相關委員及相關委員．以38項列為研究辦理及審核參考．是審計工作的主要目的．在促使政府建前財務秩序．匡正財務紀律增進財務效能．以協助國家良善助理．補不當儲蓄．加強推動各項審計業務．善計審計組織．以上報告．僅請主席、各位委員、理事、先生、主教．謝謝"},{"start":2994.625,"end":3010.402,"text":"好謝謝陳審計長開始詢答每委員8分鐘必要延長2分鐘列席委員5分鐘繼續上午10時截止發言登記第一位請林德福林委員質詢"},{"start":3023.211,"end":3027.872,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請朱主計長朱主計長委員你好主席你好我請教因為總統大選過後那內閣已經進入開手的階段那總統當選人賴清德對內閣人士應該是有展開在佈局啦主席長"},{"start":3050.151,"end":3063.249,"text":"媒體對你的去留啊有所評論你自己也有定見那我請問你近20年來這個在公務生涯的你的觀察為什麼經濟成長沒有辦法"},{"start":3065.672,"end":3085.389,"text":"完全轉嫁到薪資捏因您的看法跟那個委員報告這個跟那個產業結構有關係跟產業結構有關係因為我們的是一方面是在往高的科技阿高的科技業他們的薪資所以說因為高科技帶動那其他很多那些一般的那些產業阿沒有拉上來"},{"start":3088.172,"end":3111.733,"text":"就是那一個的話就是我們可能要利用各種措施像最低工資的提高啦各種的那個把他的那個經營的環境變好啦甚至提供一些社會福利措施因為沒有轉嫁到這些薪資上面甚至連比例分配都有難度那台灣人均GDP在2022年超過南韓"},{"start":3114.877,"end":3126.663,"text":"這是20年來的首見是2022年但是2023年又被南韓反超那主計總處的官員表示按照台韓今年的經濟成長預測的推估"},{"start":3129.417,"end":3154.798,"text":"今年台灣人均有機會再度超車南韓我們沒有做這個估計今天委員報告一下因為台灣跟韓國以前是我們第一韓國很多最近我們跟韓國是非常接近受影響的在這邊說什麼超越南海只要是看匯率的因素"},{"start":3156.379,"end":3184.444,"text":"那個前年我們匯率是貶值比較小去年相對於貶值比韓國多所以會有那個差距那我們是應該跟自己比較那我們的經濟成長率最近幾年來平均都比韓國高主計長去年人均GDP換算新台幣將近92萬那請問你認為國人的薪資有多少百分比可以達標"},{"start":3186.565,"end":3189.807,"text":"可以達標主席長大家看得到政府數字的經濟成長多數人的薪水啊"},{"start":3205.501,"end":3225.574,"text":"真的是跟不上落後一大截那請問多數人薪資水準低GDP數字所呈現出的這些消費水準高那請問主計長對比數字和實際薪資所得的水平啊難道你不覺得邏輯不通嗎荒謬至極嗎"},{"start":3227.015,"end":3253.007,"text":"那個沒有邏輯不通啦是說因為他的分配的話因為有些剛才講過剛才委員有提到有些成長比較高有些成長比較多所以我們就應該是用剛才我一直講強調的要用那個從分配的政策提高社會福利的支出而且也應該是做一些那個所謂的低收入戶的一些補助主計長"},{"start":3254.588,"end":3282.628,"text":"議後通膨的控制似乎有成效但是面對高物價難降的這些多數百姓都是苦不堪言他們痛苦指數一直在飆高在520新任總統就職之前舊政府準備電價無差別的調漲的大禮那主計總處認為CPI有影響但是多數民眾憂心的是"},{"start":3283.792,"end":3302.842,"text":"三餐又要面臨漲價的機率是很高的主計長面對高物價政府無力來控制面對電價的調漲政府表示要反映成本那準備對全民兩手一攤大有藏定了的心態"},{"start":3304.414,"end":3319.382,"text":"主計長你認為民眾對經濟成長數字能有多少的期待呢跟那個委員報告一下您剛才有提到說那個台電據我知道他們初步的一個規劃並不是說無差別的成長還是就是說"},{"start":3321.772,"end":3348.89,"text":"大戶可能成長多一般的小戶可能成長低還是有差別的有差別但是你看其實最近你看那些包括券保甚至於掛號可以讓各醫院就是自己來調那裡包括店家要調其實最近尤其這些外食族他們真的是"},{"start":3350.185,"end":3351.326,"text":"痛苦指數一直在飆高"},{"start":3382.367,"end":3404.108,"text":"對,我們跟委員報告一下我們的基本工資每年大概蔡總統就任以來每年都有調升基本工資每年都有調升而且公務人員的薪水到這個8年來也調了大概11%相對於以前只有8年只調3%調基本工資對外勞是最有利的啦"},{"start":3404.648,"end":3421.474,"text":"那其實對本勞齁講實在話他要負擔家庭齁那你現在所有的物價都一直要往上調往上爬那講實在話我剛剛一直在強調他們的痛苦指數真的一直在飆高因為你知道你調基本工資"},{"start":3422.674,"end":3450.993,"text":"最得力的就是那些外勞嘛對不對因為很多國外的他們本來他們就沒有那種就是外勞所有的那些我不是歧視他們喔我是說因為你沒有把這些工資拉到跟物價水準可以來比那造成說物價一直在調但是薪資沒有調那造成我本來可以買可能麵包買10個現在可能只買6個5個"},{"start":3452.814,"end":3464.202,"text":"所以說這個就是痛苦指數會飆高啊那個主計長你們身為中央的官員要體恤啊這些基層的老百姓啊真的啊"},{"start":3465.472,"end":3465.592,"text":"主席長"},{"start":3483.442,"end":3483.742,"text":"當然知道"},{"start":3510.191,"end":3511.272,"text":"知道不知道?"},{"start":3511.272,"end":3537.969,"text":"知道甚至於我自己去買那個芭樂啊 欸 前一陣子齁 一斤芭樂 欸 69 79 這樣子勒 那個芭樂啊 是因為去年喔 下半年那個雨季的原因 下雨的一個雨季 颱風的原因到 那個芭樂是有 是有那個 我看了真的嚇了一跳啊 芭樂香蕉跟那個 香蕉也是啊 鳳梨啦都有都有高 你知道齁"},{"start":3539.774,"end":3543.088,"text":"所以說很多外食族他們要吃個水果都很困難講實在話"},{"start":3544.946,"end":3569.76,"text":"因為另外一個芭樂去年也比較低 過去你像香蕉有多20塊 對不對芭樂也差不多20塊 你要飆到將近70塊 對不對 那些當然他們買不起痛苦指數就一直在飆啊 那個跟委員報告一下目前是水果的價格是比去年高可是蔬菜現在都已經跌幅很大蔬菜 蔬菜跌幅很大"},{"start":3570.76,"end":3583.726,"text":"所以說多吃蔬菜少吃水果是不是沒有這個意思啦我這是要平衡的啦照你的意思就是說蔬菜多吃水果少吃嘛對不對其實齁主計長要爭議來考量那個"},{"start":3588.581,"end":3603.674,"text":"主計長經濟學人智庫EIU的報告指出紅海危機已經對亞洲出口的貿易造成有重大的衝擊內容並下修今年的亞洲經濟增長率預估至少0.2%"},{"start":3606.035,"end":3628.593,"text":"那請問主計長就您的了解經濟學能報告對鴻海危機的預估你認為台灣是不是能夠置身事外跟那個委員報告一下那個不同的機構有不同的估計但是有些機構他們認為是說今年的成長率會比他們上一次預估的是增加了0.2個百分點不同的機構有估計"},{"start":3629.153,"end":3634.916,"text":"就是一估至少整個經濟成長至少會影響到百分之零點二的指數嗎是不是是增加那你認為"},{"start":3644.636,"end":3662.516,"text":"這個用什麼方法能夠降低損失進而縮小對臺灣GDP的衝擊有沒有辦法那個那個黃海危機的話就是說我們的船隻通過當然一方面應該有保險嘛對不對另外一個方面我們也應該分"},{"start":3663.797,"end":3664.377,"text":"謝謝 下一位歡迎請吳秉瑞委員謝謝"},{"start":3698.769,"end":3726.882,"text":"主席麻煩請朱主計長請朱主計長委員早早主委長今天你的報告裡面都各方面談到我前幾天在網路上看到這個總體經濟學的學者是的他也在講這個CPI是的他的闡述說一個國家也不能夠CPI是不上漲的"},{"start":3727.942,"end":3744.539,"text":"像日本失落了30年他的CPI有的時候不漲反跌反而是對經濟不健康他的講法大概說一個國家正常的CPI年增率大概是兩個百分點左右算是健康他這樣的講法不知道你認不認同"},{"start":3745.64,"end":3764.588,"text":"這個是很多國家都認為如果是那個CPI一直是在很低或者是那個所謂的那個是甚至往下的話那個有些人認為是有通貨緊縮的現象中國現在就是通貨緊縮啊很嚴重啊現在中國大陸就是香港前些時候也是"},{"start":3765.643,"end":3779.44,"text":"那2%的CPI你認不認同他說2%算健康的他認為低於1%就已經不健康了更不要講說minus當然他也認為不能高啦高過3%他也是認為那就通貨膨脹啦"},{"start":3782.003,"end":3803.079,"text":"事實上我們前年111年是2.95去年是2.49今年我們沒有考慮電價的話是預計大概是1.85考慮電價的話可能接近那個是我們認為是說並沒有所謂外界所謂有所謂的通膨的現象"},{"start":3804.66,"end":3823.525,"text":"那剛剛你就順帶就是講到電價的問題電價如果假設你剛剛講的我有在聽喔很認真聽說對於這一些大戶跟一般的民生用電可能將來政府在考慮的時候所上漲的頻率是不一樣的"},{"start":3825.552,"end":3849.554,"text":"對所上漲的幅度不一樣對於一般民事用戶或者是小店戶的話據我知道他們規劃的方向是用漲幅比較低對於大戶尤其對外銷是比重很大的我舉一個例子大家都說台灣的護國神山台積電台積電大概是佔台灣用電的8個百分點"},{"start":3850.868,"end":3856.372,"text":"對的確他們大概一年的用電大概181度181度甚至到200億度啦那現在一個問題是台積電這麼賺錢啊台積電一年幾乎賺一兆台幣銀魚啦幾乎啦那"},{"start":3869.431,"end":3893.463,"text":"我們的電價是工業用電一樣民生用電一樣都是等於是在補貼的狀況啊現在的成本如果照台電的說法是一度大概是4塊左右4塊多一點但是大額的工業用電啊3塊3毛錢那是調帳之後希望能夠接近成本因為我想"},{"start":3894.676,"end":3919.779,"text":"整個國家用台電政府無論是用補貼或是用增資都是用公共的預算結果這個錢拿來補貼這種獲取非常高利利潤的這個公司台積電這麼賺錢當然很了不起他的科技發展也非常了不起這個我們都非常稱讚但是他既然這麼賺錢"},{"start":3921.57,"end":3941.168,"text":"就不應該電價再由全民來給他買單了這樣的觀念不知道你贊不贊成的確是像委員所講的事實上台積電他們也很努力在節電也很努力的在這綠能也是購買那些綠能的他節電在綠能我贊成對他公司也有益"},{"start":3941.969,"end":3963.006,"text":"但是我的意思是說像這樣子的超高壓的用戶可能還要再區分他的公司是很賺錢的是在現在走在產業的時代的尖端的跟剛剛講到已經在跟這個中國很大量產能輸出導致在做鴻海競爭這是另外一個鴻海競爭我說的這是競爭的鴻海"},{"start":3965.731,"end":3973.204,"text":"像舉一個例子中鋼他如果不去改變他的體質繼續做大量的鋼材光中國那個鋼的產量啊"},{"start":3974.79,"end":3986.374,"text":"要把他壓死對不對那中鋼一樣也是用電量很高的公司阿對事實上據我了解到那個是他們是有分那個所謂的一個情況就是說越大的越賺錢的越不應該得到補貼啦"},{"start":3997.077,"end":3997.097,"text":" ﹝廣告"},{"start":4017.315,"end":4038.082,"text":"要來去跟臺電這樣要去給他補貼的話我講的是補貼不是增資吼 補貼更要去照顧到民生還有小店鋪還有這個用電量比較小的這些消費者像聚焦的用電他佔價的比例應該相對英國政府的補貼而把它壓低啊"},{"start":4038.502,"end":4041.503,"text":"對於那個是小規模的那個是那個店鋪的我們他們都有做一個規規規劃這是店的問題那兩年前幾乎是4月在這邊跟你請教那個時候"},{"start":4066.645,"end":4088.753,"text":"對於這個國中小的營養午餐那補助費用的拉高嘛一般是拉到10塊但是偏鄉是拉到14塊那這兩年來你剛剛講CPI有2.9級的有2.6級的加在一起又超過了5%的CPI在這樣的話這個食物類都是上漲的比例"},{"start":4089.893,"end":4093.897,"text":"對那個補助金額我們可能要由那個是教育部跟那個那個農委會的那個單價他們因為比較熟悉事實上我們有6塊"},{"start":4112.995,"end":4136.988,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4137.961,"end":4138.602,"text":"我非常贊成陳代理部長有公"},{"start":4163.991,"end":4182.98,"text":"他有一個構想讓隨身的營養的能夠那個品質更深的提高對啊尤其最近台灣這個食安風暴還有系統性的會議從中國進來的東西就是很有問題啊從以前又一直講像中國那個國家都最不重視食安了就一堆人千人要去抱中國的大腿"},{"start":4184.663,"end":4205.463,"text":"又搞了這個東西讓大家是惶惶不安啦最近的這一個什麼蘇丹紅事件啊也是百思不爽同樣的都是同樣的狀況再來我就是再問一個你的報告裡面所點的東西啊台灣這兩三年來的超額儲蓄率都很高今年你有預估超額儲蓄率甚至會到3.8兆"},{"start":4208.892,"end":4209.753,"text":"對,跟那個委員報告一下"},{"start":4229.56,"end":4255.73,"text":"事實上超額持續有那個國民所得的很等式的話他超額持續是指持續大於投資事實上S減I就是等於出口減進口所以我們只要有那個出口的順差越多我們的超額持續就越多新加坡也是這樣子我看那個瑞士他們也也都是這樣子將來我們的附加價值越多那個出口順差越多超額持續就越多不過這邊的一個"},{"start":4257.13,"end":4258.953,"text":"通常有些投資要把金融投資也應該算算到裡面去就是說他有"},{"start":4272.813,"end":4296.743,"text":"實質的投資就是機器、廠房、設備不夠可是那些錢他要去運用就像我們的外匯存底去買美國的一些所謂的公債同樣是有賺起外匯所以說我們除了實質投資以外金融投資也應該努力新加坡有很高的超額儲蓄"},{"start":4297.583,"end":4313.017,"text":"可是他的金融理財也很好類似也是這個樣子但是我們的法令的保守程度沒有辦法像他那麼open那我因為時間很短我現在最後一個問題跟你強調一下小弟在立法院從開始到現在已經經過20年了"},{"start":4314.838,"end":4330.028,"text":"我們政府的公共建設支出的預算早年比例是比較高的到前幾年變得很低這幾年又慢慢恢復出來因為有特別預算嘛有前瞻基礎建設嘛那我的意思是說在財政如果你的財政"},{"start":4330.848,"end":4340.255,"text":"假設我們每一年的稅收真的都超過預算數那麼多的話也要有一部分拿來做公共建設的投資啊這一部分是提醒你啊那這樣的話希望把這個"},{"start":4357.867,"end":4362.693,"text":"院會的時候也可以 如果有意見溝通的時候也可以表達謝謝你 感謝 努力"},{"start":4384.741,"end":4392.944,"text":"謝謝主席呃我我我換個順序好了今天審計長來這裡都沒有表現審計長先來啊陳審計長委員好"},{"start":4406.582,"end":4434.397,"text":"主計跟審計其實都相對冷門啊但是但是好像你又比主計更冷門一點但事實上你比主計更重要來我們先看一個你的報告你的報告呢100就在113年度你看111年度你就針對一個叫做政府推動重要社會發展計畫執行情形"},{"start":4435.492,"end":4459.07,"text":"然後這裡面身心障礙兒少的受虐比例持續的攀升大概每一年身心障礙的兒少本身是candid cap身心障礙那大概每年大概1000個1000個受虐"},{"start":4463.143,"end":4491.255,"text":"身心障礙的兒少有多少呢大概5.2萬人左右身心障礙的兒少5.2萬但是狩獵的1000人每年一直成長這是你的報告圖表已經就不列了齁我都是根據你的報告來的齁那我給你個數字一般的一般的我們台灣全國的兒童狩獵有多少人一年"},{"start":4493.137,"end":4515.373,"text":"你知道嗎?大概1萬人左右,超過1萬人所以大概每10萬人40個左右就受虐了一般的不是只有身心障礙的受虐這個數字你已經提出了你的報告在113年上個月2月17號你講的父或者母20歲"},{"start":4518.456,"end":4544.327,"text":"的6歲以下兒童也就是這個6歲以下的兒童他的爸爸媽媽是沒有滿20歲沒有滿20歲的弱勢兒童主動關懷方案這是衛生部提出來的為人弱勢辦理啊你得修理衛生部啊跟衛生部提這個6歲以下的"},{"start":4545.447,"end":4562.208,"text":"若是兒童的一個照顧沒有若是辦理行情、衛務部研磨改善我把這兩個都是你的報告你的一個審計報告我今天等於讓你表演一下表現一下"},{"start":4563.61,"end":4587.051,"text":"你對衛福部有什麼進一步的要求?最近衛福部得頂了饅頭包、竹端籠使得安全然後又來一個受虐偶的事情都是轟動整個社會兩大事件衛福部就一路擺爛等於是一個看守政府現在變成無政府動態的一個標竿就是衛福部來你講一下"},{"start":4588.667,"end":4613.359,"text":"衛福部的業務阿相當的複雜 都關係到人民 你的業務也很複雜欸 你的業務也很複雜啦 你的業務也很複雜欸 我的業務是在後面 他的衛福部的業務在前面 所以他受到的衝擊會比較大 所以我們都會提醒他 這個地方尤其很熱術的地方"},{"start":4613.899,"end":4616.261,"text":"他還答覆我說我提醒他我們要做注意對這個民眾會產生以後會產生一些社會問題所以我們都會提醒"},{"start":4633.92,"end":4655.237,"text":"他有沒有報告給你啊他會他會他會這個結果發生了你看二月十七經歷不到一個月一個月的時間發生這個劣童案就代表他執行的不徹底啊因為我們的二月二十七的一件鋼器他可能還在在整個還有針對蘇丹隆的事情你有沒有利益"},{"start":4656.218,"end":4681.009,"text":"列案去管有沒有蘇丹宏的事情113年度啊對蘇丹宏他因為關係到民眾民眾很大會前面調查蘇丹宏你要專案調查蘇丹宏我們有立案專案調查不只蘇丹宏我們整個還要什麼還要什麼列專案還要什麼來來來整個蘇平安全喔整個天安部整個天安部啦你要講還要什麼"},{"start":4682.029,"end":4683.971,"text":"那你們現在查到蘇丹鴻最大的問題在哪裡?不是個案啦,是全面啦,大家都這麼丟"},{"start":4703.228,"end":4705.489,"text":"大概我會6、7月會做會整個查完查完會寫報告大概我會寫在我的112年的審核報告裡面"},{"start":4733.587,"end":4748.201,"text":"7月份你的針對蘇丹紅一定出來蘇丹紅我們會順便瞭解不是順便瞭解啊 專案瞭解啦現在大家全民大家說你串到要死了好 這個委員這樣都要求我們趙委員的意思7月"},{"start":4749.042,"end":4764.868,"text":"我們會有一個報告出來六月底以前啦六月底前一個報告出來齁其實老是有六月底我都不能立了這個陳建能工一個月就可以結束了我們是做的系統性的查核會比較複雜一點齁好 謝謝我們再請那個朱主計長朱主計長喂啦朱主計長"},{"start":4776.986,"end":4796.131,"text":"你接受媒體專訪的時候我沒有接受專訪啊媒體訪問你說你說確定不做了沒有他們我是在上次國民所託評審會的時候我說也有可能是最後一次對喔所以現在撬回來喔所以現在撬回來我沒有說可能的我的我的派令只到5月19號跟委員報告"},{"start":4802.853,"end":4808.616,"text":"沒有任何人沒有任何人跟我提未來做不做然後我在這邊講說我不做我不做那個好像太矯情了謝謝"},{"start":4823.514,"end":4835.449,"text":"啊萬里真的找你做勒?啊?萬里真的找你做勒?對我覺得我這8年呢已經該休息了中華民國有很多人失火之後你像我們下面就一堆了的人"},{"start":4836.641,"end":4865.435,"text":"所以你可以講enough is enough夠了是不是enough is enough對對對enough enough這個同意喔那個是我當然好了我先回家當然有另外一個解讀啦阿你也知道我不是有另外一個解讀是說你以退為進說主計長我不要做了阿你要再做其他的官我可能就要做了財政部長要做就對了拜託我要進到哪邊去財政部長阿可以"},{"start":4866.295,"end":4871.464,"text":"財政部那個那個那個有更有能力的人這個東西這個老師講的是提到一個事情了"},{"start":4879.617,"end":4902.273,"text":"這個CPI、GDP大家都問我這個只有點一個你每一次預估都比其他的比如說你預估的央行比INF都樂觀跟那個委員報告一下在同一個時間點每一個都一樣因為我們預估的比較早他們就在後面修正所以他看起來好像所以他們比較準你比較不準"},{"start":4903.354,"end":4924.311,"text":"他們比較準你比較準我比他早一個月預估所以比較不準所以比較不準所以是說因為那個是怎麼掌握的事實掌握的事實比較多謝謝所以你比較不準的地方沒有沒有我比較他如果說跟我同同一個時候預估的話我們就沒有說什麼我請教你啊那個"},{"start":4926.392,"end":4949.341,"text":"前瞻現在還剩多少錢前瞻的話如果第4期結束好像是上不是好像就是剩下幾百零四億元金融底就結束了嗎沒有沒有沒有要到今年8月還是7月對對對今年7月8月結束對對對對對所以700億就繳酷了明年明年7月8月對不對明年你告訴我請坐喔明年7月8月對對對"},{"start":4951.282,"end":4976.732,"text":"那到底是什麼哪一方面執行落後怎麼會還是7、8月沒有沒有前瞻沒有落後因為本來就是最後就是大概8個月就是本來他前瞻不是從蔡政府第一天任期就開始做是到7、8月才做的那你有沒有鼓勵其他的人趕快來申請現在也可以申請嗎"},{"start":4978.989,"end":4994.685,"text":"那個700億還沒有還沒有定案啊這將來是有過不去的就是有700億還沒有申請的嘛就這樣過不去對啦那個是那個是要他過不去哪個項目比較多沒有哪個項目我們是看需求的情況而定"},{"start":4995.626,"end":5012.723,"text":"而是哪一個部會可以申請那個事是什麼那個前瞻基礎建設裡面有說那個八項都只要符合前瞻基礎建設裡面的那個八項都可以申請好最後一個跟你講一個很嚴重很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":5015.233,"end":5022.722,"text":"台電資本額原來在113年1月3300億我們立法院通過給他1500億所以變4800那今年又增加1000等於要5800然後呢我請問你以後"},{"start":5035.577,"end":5053.994,"text":"經濟啊那個退稅的我們給500億對不對對500億不是資本不是增資喔補貼燃料費用對對對不對好了他現在1月23號上上個月他到行政院開會沒有在嘛對不對"},{"start":5055.342,"end":5076.003,"text":"你知道嗎?我忘記了我還在忘記,你知道嗎?拜託他向陳奎陳俊仁報告台電的說要再爭取一千億的補貼不是爭之後他現在資本額已經五千八加億後給他五百億現在又增加一千億"},{"start":5077.764,"end":5102.001,"text":"陳建民指示主計總處趕快核算你核算結果怎麼樣那個是他們的一個討論的過程的阿討論的過程最後的要看那個經濟部提來的方案是多少我們才能夠做決定阿你要不要他說如果爭取不到一千億的補貼就要大幅漲電價台電恐嚇你台電恐嚇你恐嚇全民"},{"start":5106.003,"end":5134.008,"text":"那個所謂的大壺漲電價都我們相對於其他國家比較起來那個是小壺是小壺10%是小壺嗎10%是小壺我不曉得是10%我不曉得是10%現在聽到是11%啦齁我沒有聽到過10%11%阿媒體不看媒體才11%阿媒體我不曉得是11%媒體認識的是嗎我沒有看到方案我沒有看到方案沒有沒有我要跟你提醒一點喔"},{"start":5135.615,"end":5146.645,"text":"臺電我們一直給他增資一直給他增資然後呢給他補貼日後經濟給他補貼五百現在跟你要一千還要漲價臺電幹麼又要你煮"},{"start":5149.95,"end":5169.778,"text":"對不對剛才委員提得很好啊 吳平委員提得很好啊 像台積電經燙得這麼多 股票一直漲 結果他用的電用的都是台電虧本賣給他的電 這個東西老實講要區別嘛 我跟委員報告一下 台積電也很努力的節能以及做綠能 綠電賣綠電賣綠電"},{"start":5172.739,"end":5192.876,"text":"我要請到最後一個小問題讓我知道一下臺電這樣子一直增值下來以後臺電有1萬個左右的小股東大部分都是臺電的員工家屬買的變成幣值啊委員跟那個委員您應該知道您臨演氣管的增值跟那個補貼最後淨值都一樣"},{"start":5194.54,"end":5209.432,"text":"什麼意思我聽不懂你真知是在補充權益裡面那個所謂的補貼是用未分配言語或者是他補貼以後就賣掉補貼要當費用用掉了現在沒有誰跟你扯這個沒找時間來跟我討論這個問題你這個亂講一套的這個沒有沒有委員你看看你以前寫的書就知道謝謝你了好謝謝"},{"start":5224.161,"end":5240.253,"text":"下一位質詢請郭國文、郭昭偉主席有請陳審計長跟朱主計長陳審計長還有朱主計長,我先問審計長朱主計長審計長"},{"start":5253.737,"end":5280.734,"text":"委員長我先問審計長審計長最近台中市政府左手賣土地右手又降稅之前他在109年的時候降了公告地價20.06%本期給他出估一下一年的稅收至少少收了17億多這8年至少少收136億然後又說沒有錢所以說他要賣土地今年又賣了86億"},{"start":5282.395,"end":5298.521,"text":"如果再加上之前的話他總共已經賣出1750億超過的土地這一頭有一個問題啊 省議長你有沒有去想一想啊 這個土地的處分方式難道只有販售而已嗎"},{"start":5299.718,"end":5299.738,"text":"省議長請說"},{"start":5317.598,"end":5344.739,"text":"這個部分我們多多少少都在瞭解多多少少都在瞭解我看到底多還是少啊對阿對阿多多少少的瞭解監察院他們的誠意整個把這個土地都收了你要審計部啊你要跟我扯到監察院我現在問你啊你到底有沒有統計啊這個部分我們在歸納啊歸納我有問你你才會歸納那你平常都沒有在歸納"},{"start":5347.09,"end":5363.571,"text":"我就問你嘛,你手頭上有沒有3年以來地方政府出售土地的方式、比例、坪數、價格對社會所造成的影響有沒有?這個部分沒有沒有,對啊就是沒有嘛所以多多少少"},{"start":5364.904,"end":5389.082,"text":"就是都夠按剛剛委員提醒我要有整體性對站在審計部的高位當中你要去思考這樣的土地處理方式只有單一的販售土地是不是有土地特定對象的一個嫌疑或帶動地方的這個土地的炒作的可能台中市政府做一個非常錯誤的範例"},{"start":5391.309,"end":5400.546,"text":"該收的稅金他不收他要當好人然後結果就會販售土地搞不好A土地B土地賣了A土地帶動了B土地的價格你有沒有去思考這個問題"},{"start":5402.847,"end":5428.949,"text":"所以,市長,那你怎麼處理這些問題?這接著你有沒有可能,好,你都沒有做統計的話,那本席要求你啊,你看要做這3年來或5年來地方政府處理土地的這個坪數,還有方式,還有金額,到底是造成什麼樣的社會影響,可不可以做一份報告給本席?可以,這個委員的建議非常的好。然後呢?就做啊。多久啊?"},{"start":5431.134,"end":5452.905,"text":"這個因為是前面性的你給我一點時間一個月可以不可以一個月什麼太少太少了一個半月一個半月一個半月可以不差不多要六月底六月底啦太久了吧六月底現在三月因為他解決一個事情我們還是要深入兩個月然後連同改善的方式也都幫我處理出來好不好"},{"start":5454.466,"end":5455.968,"text":"有關於前三、五期的部分本期問你會不會編?"},{"start":5475.464,"end":5490.936,"text":"目前並沒有說不編目前並沒有說不編目前也沒有說要編那應該按照正常的是要編正常應該要編因為那個前瞻的那個條例就已經講說是8400億對8400億我們還有700億嘛到明年的8月還有700億嘛對704億對還有這個704億嘛然後聽說是不是孤立什麼520的狀況"},{"start":5500.183,"end":5525.489,"text":"所以說到現在還沒有排版定案沒有啦 這個本來就應該要編了嘛例行性的八個項目都要編啦但是本席要提醒你一個部分喔 是的過往因為地方的這個財政問題配合款的問題或諸多計畫提出的問題的結果變成有特定的縣市別拿到比較多的前瞻預算你有沒有做過這種統計"},{"start":5527.169,"end":5548.167,"text":"我們在那個構憲室的那個分配我們有我們可以移分資料給委員我跟你講不用本期大概稍微了解了過我們一直強調所謂的南北平衡但事實上呢就結果來說呢其實只有北高平衡南北哪有平衡大家人們前瞻計畫的軌道運輸都拿了一鍋而已拜託我也不會"},{"start":5549.448,"end":5551.851,"text":"對於臺南特別那個 特別不好?"},{"start":5551.851,"end":5570.549,"text":"因為我就是臺南人啊 我就是臺南人啊 對不對 對啊 你也知道啦 那你又敢說你臺南人是北荷蘭 我算不上你北荷蘭 問題是你也 白鷗水過月給了21號 你也先給我批討一下嘛 白鷗水過月給了21號 總共來說的話 軌道運輸才拿到1億多 我是說你第5期的部分有沒有思考一下 前面4期分配很多 將來不要再來要了可不可以啊 對啊"},{"start":5573.732,"end":5576.194,"text":"對,你待會會後你就可以打電話給黃偉哲了"},{"start":5590.763,"end":5620.078,"text":"對阿就是這些問題嘛你要考慮到一個區域平衡發展嘛不是誰來申請你就送給他嘛你要考量一下誰拿的比較多誰拿的比較少然後前章計畫8400億都集中在少部分縣市的哪有這種道理對不對是前章的這個目的嗎那個處理長麻煩你注意一下可不可以是這樣應該還有啦還有很多問題要跟你請教齁不敢這個有關於這個CPI的部分齁是的"},{"start":5621.34,"end":5630.813,"text":"不要說你跟央行比較啦我就跟你個人這個之前的預估2022年的時候你預估啊2023年的時候啊是1.86那2023年實際值是2.5%所以誤差值大概是25%"},{"start":5638.735,"end":5661.466,"text":"那明升的CPI今年是降到這個二月的降到3.26但是月購的CPI還是一樣上升到4那今年預估是今年1.64但是我要跟您提醒的是說目前的這個相關的這個外國際的情勢並沒有改變戰爭如果持續進行"},{"start":5662.947,"end":5688.878,"text":"預計這種CPI還是會持續發生的情況底下民生的CPI是不是也應該公布一下讓大家會比較了解這是第一啦第二個部分呢影響這個CPI的部分我們過去有一些作為包括三營業稅關稅等等的一個免稅的方式到3月底黃小玉等等就已經要到期了可是我了解的部分好像到現在為止穩定物價小組都還沒有開會就了解狀況如何什麼時候開會"},{"start":5692.239,"end":5710.116,"text":"都有定期開會可是到現在3月底就要到期了餒下禮拜開會下禮拜什麼時候下禮拜20號20號那您的主張怎麼樣你覺得這個免稅那個是我們去看那個是他那個那你會不會希望這個王小玉這個免關稅的部分其實持續進行那個趙吉仁是"},{"start":5716.982,"end":5731.611,"text":"我問題是說你看到這些CPI的數字你會不會建議說為了避免這些CPI繼續攀升那相關的一些免稅的作為應該持續數字你最了解啦我在問你的態度嘛沒有啦我的態度沒那麼重要的謝謝你的態度很關鍵啦主席主席你都變得不重要了"},{"start":5740.416,"end":5756.907,"text":"那個整個趨勢你最了解啊我是希望說你要考量到CPI持續攀升的狀況底下政府該作為應該持續啦我這樣建議你啦好另外一個部分同樣的也是CPI的部分你今年開始有這個公布所謂的高廉CPI嘛"},{"start":5758.348,"end":5776.337,"text":"高齡CPI最關鍵的其實是有關於社會給付特別是高齡項目的部分所編列的預算我看到高達一兆1357億我請問你一下你這一兆1357億的部分是按照CPI的這個部分還是用高齡CPI的部分來編列的"},{"start":5777.477,"end":5789.244,"text":"這個是按照一般的CPI不過我要跟那個委員報告如果高齡CPI按照過國的話他有時候會下降他有時候會下降像油價高漲的時候那我們可不可以訂一個擇優處理啊"},{"start":5795.209,"end":5806.261,"text":"因為你就是要給付嘛,你給付的精神就是要照顧人民,照顧高齡嘛不過各位委員報告,我們只是提這些指示出來因為這個您剛才講的,您這個圖案裡面,圖裡面講老農國民年輕官保給付"},{"start":5810.305,"end":5834.837,"text":"他有各自的主管機關他有各自的法令你要交給他個別主管機關認定但是預算編列是在你的手上啊我沒有那麼大權力啦我不能去預算編列沒有我算過啦其實依照老人津貼的話齁那個老農津貼的話他是可以增加的啦我有算過啦你自己私底下再算一下我建議說你這個部分能不能從一個高齡CPI的部分來做一個思考可以跟各部會來討論一下可不可以"},{"start":5836.218,"end":5838.183,"text":"接下來,主席長,實質薪資連續4年下降,連續4年"},{"start":5847.481,"end":5872.71,"text":"應該沒有4年啦我可以跟那個委員報告一下那個我們在這個是我算一算齁這個從最近的這一個這個明目薪資再算一下CPI再算起來齁實質薪資齁一樣持續下滑我們最近8年啦他的實質薪資增加530澳元相對前一個8年最近8年加530澳元你覺得這是很驕傲的數字嗎相對前一個8年只有增加80澳元"},{"start":5874.991,"end":5876.713,"text":"平均每年啦 平均每年"},{"start":5895.492,"end":5924.832,"text":"我覺得越夠CPI來算的話他實質薪資搞不好還跌破4萬欸不是不是我講錯了那個是平均每年530幾塊啦平均每年不是百年平均每年增加530幾塊對530平均每年我們會後來核斷數字啦即便你每年增加530幾塊還是非常的稀少好不好相對前面的8年只有80幾塊的相對前面的8年好了你要比前面的8年我再比現在實質的感受跟生活上的所需啦"},{"start":5925.692,"end":5925.712,"text":"謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5953.536,"end":5959.018,"text":"是謝謝主席有請那個審計長跟主計長陳審計長朱主計長委員長兩位長官早安委員長"},{"start":5967.796,"end":5996.058,"text":"我想我先請問審計長就是在這個P2P的業者的納管的一個問題那審計部在3月5號那你發布了一個新聞稿要求金管會要強烈的來監督P2P的一個管理那你要求那個金管會就是對於網路上那個借貸的一個平台的一個監理他你需要加強"},{"start":5997.335,"end":6012.747,"text":"那部長那個你認為就是說應該要怎麼樣的來管理因為這個委員是這樣齁因為南約那個世界經濟網路論壇講未來的那個假信息、詐騙是我們未來風險的未來兩年風險的所謂所以這方面打擊詐欺這個變成我們很重要的一個方向所以"},{"start":6027.818,"end":6042.571,"text":"對這個因為他詐騙金融就很重要所以我們去查的時候所以審計長你也看到了這個金融的一個危機如果我們這個錢收不回來的話其實會造成了很大的一個社會的一個問題那你再看下一張圖朱任業跟P2P的"},{"start":6045.353,"end":6068.288,"text":"是非常類似的其實他只是在於資金來言的一個不同那就是說P2P是來自於就是資金的來源來自於民眾朱任業來自於就是銀行他從銀行的這個行庫裡頭去借那目前我們所知道的就是說朱任業從公股行庫裡頭來借就借了16001268億的喔"},{"start":6072.23,"end":6088.144,"text":"那這樣子的話其實立期上的一個差別那個連真也沒有用戶的一個資安的調查也沒有可是相對的就是說這個P2P有金管會管那主任業呢你認為應該由誰來管"},{"start":6090.686,"end":6108.894,"text":"這一個委員非常的深入整個這個金融上面整個能夠有一個套都兼顧到整體上非常好所以委員這個提出來我們會進行整個瞭解這一個部分啦原則上因為這個話我們會提出來我們會提出來這個意見"},{"start":6115.717,"end":6124.139,"text":"行政院去衡量這個到底是金管會或怎麼樣因為這個我沒辦法帶行政機關除了說誰來管這個就是我剛剛退伍委員的之處啊就是他你能夠再深入到這塊你現在講的是P2P是由金管會來管那朱任業你有沒有提出這樣的一個建議是由哪一位監理機關來管啊"},{"start":6143.062,"end":6164.002,"text":"這個部分本來這是民法上的一個問題但是這個可能我們會把這個意見或者委員也把這個意見所以你一定會告訴我這是民間之間的借貸關係是民法那他雖然欠缺了徵信跟帳戶資料保管的不透明的問題好你已經都"},{"start":6165.143,"end":6192.301,"text":"知道這些問題在哪裡了那誰來管是不是應該做一個積極上的一個建議這個沿著上我們尊重行政部門但是我想應該如果錢都是錢盡量因為我們有成立了金管會盡量由金管會統籌會比較整體非常好沈局長你也看到了這個其實你不能放任就是監管的一個套利所以你認為應該由金管會來"},{"start":6193.542,"end":6215.307,"text":"我個人啦,但是這個我還是要尊重行政部門的決定主計長,我白河的外孫我是白河的外孫,跟你一樣那我想跟你探討就是說在最近就是說"},{"start":6216.647,"end":6240.917,"text":"其實從2023年就是我們的CPI年增率接近15年來的次高那主計處的統計裡頭我們也看到了非常的清楚就是2023前年度的CPI的年增率是2.5%那今年二月份的CPI你預估會來到3.08那就是說針對整年的那個CPI的一個"},{"start":6242.057,"end":6270.833,"text":"年增率你預測就是會降低到1.60%對跟委員報告我們最新的是1.85而且沒有爆發電池那你認為降到1.85是好還是不好這個我覺得是一個所謂的一個是怎麼樣並沒有很悲觀也沒有很很樂觀因為我們還有電價如果1.85的話加上電價就可能會真的會接近百分之二的那"},{"start":6271.994,"end":6295.239,"text":"那我們認為是說最近的一個那個一月二月份比較高是因為去年的過年是在一月所以說那個比較的基礎是去年比較低的基礎比較低所以今年3.08比較高謝謝主計長謝謝我想你也就是預測到今年CPI的一個就是有考慮到電價電價的一個調整還有醫療費用的一個那個就是整個那個對對對"},{"start":6300.339,"end":6316.967,"text":"整個一個就是說他上升的一個趨勢主計長我剛送你一包洋芋片你拿出來搖一下好不好我跟你說這一包我這一包洋芋片跟你這一包洋芋片雖然你不要打開喔我跟你講"},{"start":6320.168,"end":6336.094,"text":"這個洋芋片齁,量變少了。我不知道你之前買過洋芋片嗎?我們兩個都一樣少。那個跟那個委員報告一下,我們在這物價調查的時候啊,它的量少的話,我們會考慮說它的價就有上。"},{"start":6336.494,"end":6361.902,"text":"沒有我跟你講他量少價不變量少價不變雖然他這個業者會告訴你說這個裡面那個充氣是可以保鮮可是我們知道這是一個縮水式的通膨就是說民眾關心這個縮水式的通膨我不知道你在這個CPI的一個計算裡頭你有沒有把它算進去了"},{"start":6362.382,"end":6389.023,"text":"對我們有算進去就像買那個便當原來滷蛋是一顆現在變成一半我們就認定說它是漲了大概是漲了大概四塊四五塊錢我們都會算到裡面去我們CPI的那個會考量它的重量啊它的質量的問題都有好主計長非常好所以你的通膨是有跟民眾的通膨體表的通膨是一樣的嗎"},{"start":6390.545,"end":6411.627,"text":"那個是民眾感覺是可能會不太一樣可是我們在做統計的時候我們會有考量那不一樣那不一樣怎麼辦呢不一樣我們就在物價指數調的時候會考慮它的那個重量的變化我們都會考慮所以你隨時在調整對謝謝所以就是說所有的通膨都是在你的掌控中"},{"start":6413.026,"end":6431.579,"text":"欸在理論上啊對對對在理論上那實際上啊實際上因為我們主計總是著重的是一個成長率是一個相對物價個別的話因為我們調查的所謂的花色有兩萬多種我不可能像神龍藏百藥啊他也只藏一百種我這要調查兩萬種每一個細節我"},{"start":6434.361,"end":6458.797,"text":"那你當然是應該要調查的啊 是的 是的 我們都有調查 我們都有調查 所以就是說 你的體感的CPI跟我們老百姓更接近的時候 那你才會是跟大家是接近的啊 跟那個委員報告一下 就是因為民眾所接觸是他每天買的東西 像外食會 但是有些電器用品我們也是在下跌的"},{"start":6460.499,"end":6471.909,"text":"因為他不是每天都要買,他可能一兩年才買一次,那個是在下跌的我想主席長,你這二月底公告一份失業率是3.39%的一個報告那你強調說這是最近23年來最低的一次"},{"start":6481.337,"end":6500.604,"text":"可是根據新聞我們新聞的一個報導我們的一個缺工率一直持續在上增那這個缺工的狀況創了新高那業者積極尋求勞動力補足的一個缺口那為什麼會有這樣子的一個狀況就是說你一百"},{"start":6501.104,"end":6522.766,"text":"一十年到一百一十二年的統計的實質薪資卻一直都是在下降那老百姓感受到了體感感受到的是物價的一個膨脹更明顯了那我們怎麼樣來解釋這個問題呢你有沒有辦法就是說從數據上去我們看到你的數據是沒有辦法反映出來的"},{"start":6523.586,"end":6540.332,"text":"委員報告一下因為所謂的那個是失業率降低就是代表就業情況很好所以他的那個缺工的情況就會比較多他兩個是一個反向的關係像金融危機的時候這個我懂主計長我懂"},{"start":6542.113,"end":6564.761,"text":"可是我還是覺得說你避開了基本薪資一直就是說太低了然後我們的一個薪資一直都沒有辦法調漲這到底是什麼樣的一個原因跟那個委員報告一下因為他跟產業結構有關係的確有些科技業他的實質薪資是在漲可是我們有很多的小規模企業的話"},{"start":6566.682,"end":6590.505,"text":"他因為他成本變高了民眾他的那個消費量也有一定所以他會比較比較少所以我們就是在這個時候我們就要調整基本工資就要調整你也覺得說基本工資要調整我們每年都有調我們每年都有調可是你調了速度事實上是跟不上就是勞工他們的一個期待"},{"start":6591.885,"end":6608.851,"text":"對那個是我們會考量的經濟情況謝謝主計長我想本席在這裡要求就是審計部跟主計總處分別針對的就是剛才提出的一個議題在一個院內提出書面報告給本席謝謝委員好謝謝現在質詢請李燕秀議員"},{"start":6623.915,"end":6643.58,"text":"謝謝教委我請主計長請朱主計長主計長好主計長這幾年原物料上漲那大家都知道通膨的狀況也越來越嚴重所以我們對於軍公教人員也經歷了三次調心在過去七年分別有107年的3%111年的4%還有到今年的4%"},{"start":6649.602,"end":6678.079,"text":"我先感謝主計長這邊大家體恤到軍公教52萬軍公教人員的辛勞那幫工人員加薪我們這個加薪當然也會帶動民間企業後續的加這是我們期待至少在2.4到2.6%中間左右我想這個部分來肯定主計長但是主計長這個加薪固然對全國民間也好軍公教也好是好事"},{"start":6679.039,"end":6708.029,"text":"但是他相對的我們要考量到地方的財源的負擔我肯定這件事情但是地方的財源負擔一定會有的你同意我這樣的說法嗎對同意到那個我們有一個方式如果我們的政策宣布是在那個地方政府預算還沒有送到議會的時候第一年中央政府會協助以後就是由他們編到預算裡面去我們才是採用這個措施"},{"start":6708.769,"end":6725.916,"text":"因為狀況是這樣子啦從107年到現在我們至少調幅11%左右您剛才講的就是說比如說今年我們打算加薪4%這個立即就會增加臺北市22億要追加這些預算要去找出這些錢出來啦"},{"start":6727.457,"end":6741.698,"text":"所以鄭文燦院長才會講說這個中央對地方藝術也會考慮到加薪這一塊你剛才講說如果預算還沒送到議會的話你們就會如果在之後的話你們就會補足全部"},{"start":6744.64,"end":6758.526,"text":"主席長我知道你會考量到說你突然宣布的話錢不知道從哪裡來所以其實我關注的就因為過去這幾年我們看到107年你們只補助了我們加薪的幅度是3%我們補助5000萬然後111年21億我們百分之百補助113年我們補助50%所以"},{"start":6771.391,"end":6794.212,"text":"就是說對地方來說他當然希望他是一個制度化的處理或者是至少可以預期大家都肯定這件事情但是財源每個縣市的財源的狀況不一致我當然不敢講說那你可不可以全部全部都你來補助地方很多縣市常常會覺得中央請客地方買單但我不願意這樣子講"},{"start":6795.453,"end":6824.856,"text":"但是如果我們可以有一個制度性的討論我覺得對地方一下子要找這個財源你即便說如果是還沒送到預算議會還沒審到預算之後你會補助全年但我覺得如果有機會制度化的處理比如說第一年由我們中央全部來負擔第二年第三年那他們再想辦法去籌措預算來處理我覺得會不會這是一個更好的方式"},{"start":6825.436,"end":6852.977,"text":"那個方向可以委員的所講的可以討論我必須說明一下條新的政策是人事總處主管的他的業務主管單位您剛才講的113年我們補助一半是因為我們的政策在他們的那個編預算送到立法院之前就宣布那個所以條50%是額外給他的啦他本來是按照"},{"start":6853.689,"end":6867.283,"text":"制度他都都不會給的但是我們額外給他所以主計長我說我今天才跟你討論說我們可不可以制度化的處理以後第一年都由中央來負擔那個要要要那個是"},{"start":6868.71,"end":6895.624,"text":"因為這個是按照地方制度法他本來就是地方自治他應該負擔的經費我們可以討論謝謝主席長我希望這件事情所以我今天有個臨時提案我希望這個事情可以做制度化的處理當然我再次強調我們肯定對軍公教因為原物料上漲通膨的問題所以我們都認為要加薪對軍公教加薪這件事情我們都給予肯定"},{"start":6896.044,"end":6913.767,"text":"但地方各縣市的財源狀況不一樣我剛剛就已經舉例了所以如果第一年有機會中央來負擔全部第二年第三年後面才由地方完全來做負擔我覺得對地方的財政找錢也好我覺得各方面"},{"start":6914.708,"end":6940.855,"text":"才不會影響到地方原來的市政的推動所以我覺得如果可以的話我希望主計長可以朝向這方式來去進行才不會對地方的財政造成立即性的衝擊對那個我們對那個財政那個情況不好的話我們事實上是全部全部不要啦主計長我覺得不要說財政好不好啦對地方來說本來每一個縣市都有既定的預算既定的市政要推動他給他的預測他比較好"},{"start":6944.217,"end":6969.156,"text":"你臨時12月30號宣布他1月1號他1月1號議會才審完他哪裏來臨時來找錢所以我覺得還是制度化的來處理這件事情我希望主計長來研議這件事情那我也希望人總的那個薪資政策能夠提早宣布謝謝好那這個也是中央的問題好不好主計長第二件事情我關注到前兩天"},{"start":6970.957,"end":6983.746,"text":"陳院長在回答科珍委員的時候講到說股票上兩萬點你開不開心主計長股票上兩萬點你開不開心我一點我個人一點都不開心因為我沒有股票"},{"start":6984.871,"end":7002.141,"text":"對阿我就查到你的財產申報裡面你的股票才5560塊阿所以那個是已經沒有上市對阿所以院長搞錯了啦股票上兩萬點是少數人開經因為以台灣的股市來說我們將近44%是外資我們的護國神三台機電還有七成也是外資所以"},{"start":7013.488,"end":7027.932,"text":"所有的股票好當然好就是說經濟預期也會比較好但是這個利多並不是全民共享的利多主計長我要給你看幾個數字依照我們GDP來說從2012年到2021年蔡英文所講的6.53是我們經濟成長是20年來最好的時刻但是在我們的GDP佔比中我們受雇人員的報酬從2012年的45.8%"},{"start":7042.777,"end":7055.948,"text":"降到我們現在2021 二零二一年的四十三趴是歷年來最低這個數字我相信數字你非常清楚代表的意義是台灣的經濟紅利其實勞工沒有享受到"},{"start":7056.926,"end":7072.274,"text":"喔第一點資方享受到勞工沒有享受到第二個代表的意義是台灣產業結構出現了很大的問題我們少數贏者圈的收入很高但是大多數的民眾沒有享受到經濟的利益然後再下來"},{"start":7073.154,"end":7097.707,"text":"我想你非常清楚這幾年我們貧富差距造成12年來的新高然後我們這幾年我們的實質經常性的薪資過去這3年都被即便有加薪全部這3年都被吞捧吃掉了那再來下一張我們看到我們近5年實質種薪資是倒退的而且是7年來首度的負成長"},{"start":7099.328,"end":7105.331,"text":"主計長我也看到齁其實你有講你在去年的10月26號齁你講過一句話貧富差距是過去10年的新高所得分配不均政府的責任最大你現在還是同意這句話嗎跟那個委員報告這個有點斷章取義啦我都所得分配不均政府就要來"},{"start":7120.857,"end":7137.627,"text":"做一個首都分配的一個工作所以明天也有責任主計長我們不要玩文字遊戲政府有最大的那我這樣講政府有責任去處理分配貧富分配不均的問題好不好所以"},{"start":7138.607,"end":7167.124,"text":"所以我要講的說蔡英文不要老拿經濟20年來最好6.53來自得滿意我們股票上兩萬點你回去你也應該跟院長講說兩萬點齁這時候少數人開心外資開心啦以我來說以你來說我們都沒有玩股票的人我們都不開心你要告訴他這件事情我要怕大家誤解我個人不開心可是我管國家的財政很開心因為證券交易稅增加對不對謝謝"},{"start":7168.785,"end":7180.124,"text":"但是主事長那我就要糾正你稅收增加很開心但是人民的經濟人民生活過得好不好才是我們身為政府的最大責任"},{"start":7181.189,"end":7208.72,"text":"你同意這句話嗎當然所有大多數的人民過得好不好才是政府最重要的責任所以主計長你應該對於明年的經濟有所預測包括我剛剛講的人民我們實質薪資明年到底會不會再往上跳會不會變成有負轉正或我們總薪資有沒有機會重負轉正我們是說可以那要看那個CPI的成長率阿你都應該要預期阿你是主計長阿對"},{"start":7210.521,"end":7231.071,"text":"那個明目薪資一定會成長那要看那個CPI的一個上漲CPI的上漲有時候會有一些不確定因素我知道啦但是你每一年都會預測那你能不能預測明年你評估預測明年因為我不曉得包括我們的經常薪資包括明年的總薪資有沒有機會有負轉勝那個是說我只能說有50%的機會"},{"start":7236.869,"end":7237.209,"text":"主席長你這個是﹖"},{"start":7267.609,"end":7280.334,"text":"我希望你們有去做評估你們應該有吧我主計總處沒有經濟部有沒有我不曉得因為CPI明年你應該是財政三長、主計長財政部部長、經濟部部長應該對這個有所評估主計長我的時間到了我覺得這個都是聯動性的問題明年人民生活過得好不好"},{"start":7293.138,"end":7293.358,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7322.782,"end":7342.528,"text":"那我們等一下現場委員請等一下黃森山委員發言完畢我們就休息5分鐘現在接著請王宏威委員質詢謝謝主席我請主計長請朱主計長主計長好"},{"start":7349.403,"end":7351.976,"text":"主計長在去年"},{"start":7353.564,"end":7372.492,"text":"我們全台灣人民有一個小確幸就是因為我們稅收超徵所以呢後來因為我提出還稅於民那麼後來很多位的不分朝野的委員都呼應最後造成發現金就是我們每個人都可以發6000塊現金這個是2022年我們的稅收超徵是4500億"},{"start":7380.097,"end":7397.378,"text":"好4500億可以看到這個是當時蔡英文總統臉書的一個分配那麼有拿出1800億來每個人普發現金那當然其他的就去做一些給地方政府啦還有一個很重要的包含去做電價補貼撥補台電"},{"start":7399.72,"end":7424.04,"text":"那今年其實稅收超徵的金額也不少也起碼達到3600億那我想請問主計長今年有沒有機會再來還稅於民再普發現金跟那個委員報告一下外界講的3600億是包括地方政府債裡面另外一個的話今年那個是"},{"start":7425.803,"end":7438.639,"text":"雖然稅收有一個超增可是我們今年仍然有發行公債而且特別預算裡面也有公債如果扣掉這些以後剩下只有一千多億剩下多少?大概一千五百億"},{"start":7441.002,"end":7450.91,"text":"那我跟那個委員報告一下而且這個的話如果要發現金的話這個可能又要一個特別條例又會說我們算用83條第4款會不會發現金你說不會目前沒有這個規劃好你說現在不會發好那你剛才有個數字我很感興趣你說呢雖然大家講3600億但是呢你好像有一些公債啊什麼等等之類的是不是"},{"start":7466.483,"end":7467.884,"text":"所以現在剛才你講的大概1500億左右是嗎?"},{"start":7480.185,"end":7488.591,"text":"大概1500億而且要等那個審計部那個7、8月審計完了以後我才能夠用謝謝你才能用對不對好來那我現在要問你一個很重要問題因為呢現在大家非常關心的物價然後關心電價上漲電價到底要漲多少那到現在呢經濟部口風很緊那大家知道有10%以上"},{"start":7507.805,"end":7521.055,"text":"那另外經濟部也對外說就是因為有稅收超增所以今年經濟部要爭取這個稅收超增的部分要補助撥補台電希望能夠達到1500億"},{"start":7524.366,"end":7539.353,"text":"那麼你剛才說主計長說現在也只剩1500億所以那麼撥補台電1500億的可能性有嗎跟委員報告一下我現在沒有看到經濟部的任何方案所以說我"},{"start":7540.293,"end":7540.773,"text":"因為主計長就像那個我們的大帳房嘛 對不對"},{"start":7560.47,"end":7570.157,"text":"所以你說現在以我們算稅收超徵但是你有發行公債等等其他的支出所以呢現在也不過剩1500億如果把1500億全部都撥補台電的話那麼我們就沒有剩餘了是不是我這樣講正不正確"},{"start":7578.663,"end":7582.605,"text":"就是沒有那個剩餘對的確所以要撥補台電1500億很困難我現在是說如果要撥的話到明年編114的預算會很吃緊很吃緊那撥1000億有沒有可能這個是我不做"},{"start":7597.35,"end":7597.891,"text":"時間暫停,我請一下審計長"},{"start":7620.91,"end":7648.297,"text":"主計長先留步我還沒問完呢還是有相關不好意思啊來委員好 審計長剛才主計長講了一個很重要的觀念就是說今年的稅收超徵還沒有完成我們審計部還沒有審定對不對可是問題是4月4月電價就要上漲了而且他電價上漲的幅度來自於這個稅收超徵可以撥補台電多少這個程序對嗎"},{"start":7650.865,"end":7651.506,"text":"所以在程序上剛才主計長也講了"},{"start":7672.236,"end":7686.394,"text":"一定要先經過審計部的審定之後才能夠確定能夠撥補台電多少這個程序是一定要這樣走對不對他到底有沒有多少剩餘我們要把這個112年度的結算審定完以後才確認下來"},{"start":7690.339,"end":7709.966,"text":"因為有時候會找到他是期徵收入的有時候會找到某一種那個所以到底多少所以我在這邊要特別去釐清因為最近經濟部一直在訪說這次稅收超徵3600億經濟就是台電可以拿他現在希望要1500億可是主計長已經說這樣子明年預算怎麼變雖然主計長不曉得會不會繼續留任"},{"start":7714.227,"end":7742.613,"text":"那現在就給他一千五百億下一任的新政府的預算就是賴清德的預算很難編一千億看起來也很難可是啊主計長兩位署議長審計長現在我們這個稅收超徵我剛剛一直講說會不會就是還稅漁民會不會普發現金我早就知道不會普發現金因為你這個錢啊好多部會啊因為他們都很多的赤字很多的債務"},{"start":7744.073,"end":7765.841,"text":"不只台電在這邊已經喊著要這個1500億現在還有勞保基金院也在2028年可能會破產所以呢連勞動部也在想這塊就像那個什麼也在流口水也希望能夠在這一次能夠撥補勞保基金的空缺"},{"start":7766.661,"end":7788.252,"text":"好那你現在全部只有1500億如果1500億通通給台電勞保基金就沒錢了對不對跟那個委員報告一下社會保險他的恐怖不是他什麼時候會倒而是他不會倒所以說我們必須去面對而且補助也不是唯一的辦法同樣的台電你一直給他補助"},{"start":7792.054,"end":7800.062,"text":"你不給他電價調高未來就不見得有這麼多的稅收超徵能夠補助他所以你的意思說電價還是要調整但我們現在就是說這筆錢怎麼算因為連勞保基金都在想你這個錢"},{"start":7815.436,"end":7835.427,"text":"但問題是你現在根本沒有這麼多錢他們想像中兩千六百億一千五百三千六百億一千五百億給台電還有兩千億啊兩千億呢勞保基金也可以來分一分啊因為在去年的時候呢他們分到了五百五十億讓他們覺得很補好啦最後結論最後結論有沒有可能台電"},{"start":7843.896,"end":7869.824,"text":"補1500億然後勞保基金補500億有沒有可能?勞保基金今年就總共已經補了他1300億了那是去年啦今年啦今年的預算啦有1300億啊我知道那個預算我是說稅收超徵的部分這個錢有沒有可能嘛我們的錢是統收統資並沒有所以沒有可能按照你剛才計算就沒有可能再給勞保基金了嘛對不對"},{"start":7871.141,"end":7871.942,"text":"我要講的是我們現在是叫做銀吃卯糧"},{"start":7889.611,"end":7906.629,"text":"對不起現在就是說稅收超生根本是一個機會就是說並不是每一年都應該發生的事情哎呀主計長我講話你一直在插嘴在幹嘛啦我剛才問你問你你就回答就好啦我在講話你一直在講話是怎樣呢抱歉"},{"start":7911.184,"end":7931.456,"text":"現在大家都想要稅收超徵這3600億但是這錢我今天至少釐清一個觀念剛才佐記長講了其實這樣子七折八扣也只不過1500億但是呢現在台電要1500億勞保基金也想他們都是公開講喔他們也希望從這個稅收超徵能夠去幫這個基金撥補因為他們的這個虧損過大"},{"start":7935.578,"end":7959.428,"text":"那所以稅收超徵不是年年超徵主計長剛講的話我完全的同意稅收超徵不是年年超徵但是這些台電虧損跟勞保基金虧損是年年都在虧損而且虧損是一年比一年多不只台電虧損周永還在虧損如果今天我們的政府想著我們的虧損只是想拿稅收超徵來補的話"},{"start":7961.409,"end":7982.195,"text":"這叫做迎吃卯糧而現在全部補完了之後就如同主計長所講的那麼明年預算很難編那我的結論就是蔡政府把這些錢都花光了最後讓賴清德他去編預算的時候是很困難編的所以我同意政府的財政不是這樣做法"},{"start":7982.995,"end":7983.015,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8013.444,"end":8018.589,"text":"交代質詢請黃珊珊黃委員發言完畢休息5分鐘謝謝請主計長請主計長委員好"},{"start":8035.923,"end":8047.428,"text":"市長我想今天很多委員都關心所謂的CPI那CPI在今天上個禮拜公布的相關的報告二月份的CPI通膨率高達3.08這個狀況您覺得原因是什麼"},{"start":8052.831,"end":8071.017,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下因為所謂CPI是二月份跟去年的二月份比較去年的二月份它不是過年期間今年二月份是過年期間所以是激起的比較差別對激起的比較的差別但是主計長我們看這個圖它已經不是激起的比較它是從2022年3月以後"},{"start":8072.998,"end":8085.976,"text":"合心通膨只有一次低於百分之二的通膨警戒也就是說你講的去年基期我同意但是我們基本上CPI是不斷的在上升而且可能也沒有趨緩的狀況你同意吧"},{"start":8089.36,"end":8105.511,"text":"有沒有趨緩的情況目前是有在那個減少的沒有上漲那麼快但是也沒有往下降我必須跟你講這個是一個視覺過國的趨勢我們在一般東亞國家我們只有比我只要問你的是那會不會繼續往上漲"},{"start":8107.412,"end":8122.089,"text":"然後還是只是2月暫時性接下來會掉下來CPI一定會這個會上漲但是他的漲幅已經在下跌我們要的是緩漲甚至是趨緩不太可能往下降但是"},{"start":8122.79,"end":8147.841,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":8148.542,"end":8171.604,"text":"還有居住類食物類但是因為他跟相關的價格波動會有關係但是居住看起來是只有往上漲沒有趨緩的狀況而且這兩類已經佔到國人一半的日常消費一般的民眾不管是吃東西還是居住這是他生活上最大最大的痛苦來源"},{"start":8173.148,"end":8197.484,"text":"好,我現在要問的是租金租金指數從現在可以看得到租金指數已經連續上漲整整31個月了主計長也在做相關的租金指數的統計它的增幅、它的狀況其實是一直往上走你看這個看起來只有連續上漲了31個月超過兩年半的時間這個刷新了歷史記錄啊"},{"start":8199.95,"end":8228.01,"text":"這個狀況目前政府不是做了很多居住正義不是很多相關的房屋租金普天還有很多很多的但是這個狀況為什麼會持續漲漲而且沒有任何放緩跟那個委員報告一下這個是因為建築成本上升那個是什麼相對的那個是那個以及因為房屋成本上升所以租金就繼續上升維修成本也提高所以這個租金指數"},{"start":8228.49,"end":8256.569,"text":"我要問的是主計長我們做了這麼久的居住正義我們有讓租金指數至少緩漲嗎?租金指數緩漲就好那個市場現象我們很難去給它處理所以我們沒有做過相關政策的評估怎麼樣去讓這個租金指數可以緩漲跟那委員報告一下我們主計總處一般來講只做統計那個租金的政策應該是由內政部來處理所以你統計完了要給他們做參考嗎?"},{"start":8258.75,"end":8284.753,"text":"他們要評估說這個指數在跟他們的推脫的政策有沒有直接正相關還有有沒有辦法讓這個政策的效益能夠提高然後讓這個指數還長事實上執政團隊都希望是這個樣子所以我現在問您的是您看到的您做的統計我們做了這麼多的政策租金指數有沒有放緩的狀況有沒有可能會放緩"},{"start":8286.41,"end":8295.384,"text":"對我我沒辦法預測因為我們一般都是事後的統計那要看那個政策的方向所以啊就是我們有統計但"},{"start":8297.847,"end":8316.793,"text":"沒方法我希望是您就你的專業看到我們很多的政策都往這邊走政府花了這麼多的錢去做居住正義但是我們的租金指數只有不斷的上漲而且"},{"start":8317.193,"end":8344.43,"text":"完全沒有放緩的期想這個是我覺得從這個角度裡面可以去給內政部更多的建議跟那個委員報告一下租金指數的確有上漲可是我們也有一些租金政策的補貼到好所以我要問的是我們推動租屋市場健全化的政策有沒有達到房市環長的目標看起來是沒有第二個我想問主計長的是我們有沒有機率看到這些租金指數在2024年之後慢慢趨緩"},{"start":8345.99,"end":8357.816,"text":"因為跟委員報告一下他的租金的市場多少租金這個必須尊重市場制度我同意嘛但是我們要做些什麼不是統計啊我們最重要的是每一個租屋的人他都有能力去租房子"},{"start":8367.24,"end":8388.37,"text":"現在的問題就在於我們的租的金額已經達到所謂民眾收入的三分之一這才是對民眾為什麼感覺居住正義在臺灣有這麼重要的一個原因我想接下來是要問一下我們其實主計處有做所謂的高齡的CPI指數的調查對吧是的"},{"start":8390.305,"end":8412.76,"text":"那日本我們看到他們做一個非常有趣的他們是各個年齡層他們去到調查他的CPI其實台灣你看到降低手機費還有保育免費的話他其實可以看出來對於相關的不同年齡層的CPI有看得出特定政策的成效我的意思就是說我們是不是在CPI統計的時候"},{"start":8413.601,"end":8439.89,"text":"可以用年齡層可以用剛剛講的租金可能是一般年輕人的租金跟一般長輩或家庭的租金他其實可以做不同年齡層的CPI的統計這個可以做一個更細緻的做法那個是我們要努力我必須跟委員報告一下那個日本的方式他們的那個是所謂年齡層是用調查的方式我們是用說在那個戶裡面他如果是全我會建議說一個進步的政府應該了解各個"},{"start":8442.691,"end":8460.567,"text":"相關的不同年齡層他的對於物價指數他現在面對到的困境我們要進一步的了解第二個我們的才可以看得到政策對於他的負擔減輕的狀況所以做出更氣質的統治我覺得是主計處可以參考日本的做法你同意嗎"},{"start":8463.108,"end":8488.984,"text":"我希望你們能夠往這個方向走啦我覺得這個是我們應該可以參考然後做各個年齡層的CPI讓我們各部會都能夠做更細緻的政策參考最後一個問題就是剛剛講的CPI剛剛已經達到3點多可能就像你講的基期接下去4月份要調漲"},{"start":8490.592,"end":8507.126,"text":"每漲電價一成就會讓通膨率升高0.12個百分點主計長現在企業用電成本提高將轉嫁給消費者其他的也會影響到通膨所以接下來去的電價你預計會漲多少CPI"},{"start":8509.496,"end":8533.377,"text":"對那個要看那個是說要看那個要看哪個那個間接影響他的轉嫁程度所以我就說請你告訴我漲多少的時候會讓物價指數漲多少對因為那個是漲0.12是至少啦至少是0.12至於說間接的影響那就你還沒有辦法算"},{"start":8535.398,"end":8555.593,"text":"所以現在電價只要漲一成我們就會漲0.12然後還不知道有多少對吧所以物價只會調漲相關的我們買到的東西也會調漲好最後就是現在還有一個就是醫療費用掛號會開放的天花板讓很多的"},{"start":8557.445,"end":8581.318,"text":"醫療院所他可以自由收取掛號費你覺得會不會引起CPI的調漲那個跟那個委員報告一下事實上掛號費上漲啊不是說最近才漲是在去年就已經漲所以他的基期已經有了已經漲了對對啦所以已經在裡面但是現在拿掉天花板可能還會再漲會不會影響到我們人民對於醫療費用的支出會又開始增加"},{"start":8582.281,"end":8592.394,"text":"對那個是如果是就診所的話大概是他的權數是百分之0.27了好啦所以主計長去年"},{"start":8594.266,"end":8620.264,"text":"相關的單位從來沒有告訴大家電價要漲而且保證給了台電500億絕對不會漲今年突然間開會要漲同樣的醫療費用也從來沒有說過要調漲現在也在漲你的相關的統計只會越來越高所以我第一個要求就是希望主計處能夠把CPI的統計能夠更精緻化第二個要去把"},{"start":8621.403,"end":8645.654,"text":"相關政部門推動政策的成效呈現在CPI裡面做一個相關的反應跟委員報告去年定價也有漲啦不是現在才漲所以我跟你說你的統計要有意義啦你的統計只是丟給他們他們沒有意義就是等於是這個統計就白統計了沒有統計就沒有統治謝謝各部會也要有能力運用我們的統計資料謝謝好休息五分鐘"},{"start":8658.626,"end":8686.237,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8710.638,"end":8711.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9060.208,"end":9065.29,"text":"繼續開會下一位質詢請嚴寬恆嚴委員主席各位列席委員大家好主席我想請主計長朱主計長請朱主計長"},{"start":9088.164,"end":9095.75,"text":"主席長好今年2月29日舉辦記者會把今年CPI年增率上修至1.85%今年2月CPI指數年增率飆上3.08%"},{"start":9110.632,"end":9131.605,"text":"那是近20個月以來最高新高如果考量4月份這個應該是沒有考量這個電費上漲的問題沒有那如果加上4月份電費上漲我國今年的CPI會不會再一次的突破這個通膨警戒線跟委員報告一下是有可能極有可能對"},{"start":9133.326,"end":9155.332,"text":"那所以二月份的消費指數年增率為3.08已經是20個月裡面最高那你可以說是因為春節物價上漲但是如果以一到二月份平均來講這個CPI已經上升2.43%是處於一個高檔那有沒有可能這個外食費房租費都持續上漲"},{"start":9156.232,"end":9173.637,"text":"那再加上4月份的電價上漲就是說把這些有業者就是把這些電費直接轉嫁到消費者的身上不管你是外食族還是住屋族任何一個行業都會對不對跟那個委員報告一下那個電價的話如果是民生用電的話他會他會轉"},{"start":9175.777,"end":9201.787,"text":"他會有那個消費者負擔那個外資會目前還在漲的趨勢那個是前些時候都有4%的成長不過他現在還是在漲主理長主理長這個 漲幅有降低的現象通膨齁什麼都在漲萬物期漲電費也要漲那接下來水費我想也要漲了都在漲那所以這個整體的物價指數肯定是下不來今年1、2月"},{"start":9203.926,"end":9219.361,"text":"醫院診所的掛號費也漲了那個診所漲了10%醫院漲1.49%那這些其實再加上外食費啊房租啊什麼外食費漲0.48%那這些東西不會有再調降的可能對不對可不可以這麼講不會調降的"},{"start":9221.281,"end":9222.182,"text":"每年調高基本薪資"},{"start":9248.156,"end":9267.031,"text":"這個調高資本薪資是不是也是物價上漲的一個元兇一個幫助犯因為調高薪資所以物價也跟著漲那個兩個的因果關係很難講因為物價漲了啊薪資如果不漲也好像不會很頭疼可是跟得上嗎就是我們漲是美化數字就對不對啊你起一次他起比你快"},{"start":9269.413,"end":9285.561,"text":"但是除非他漲得很高因為薪水的漲幅一般可能是在後面所以我們會越來越窮目前的情況是這樣子就越來越窮尤其我們的經常性薪資平均4549645496元實時經常性薪資是41334那這個部分"},{"start":9292.985,"end":9318.605,"text":"裡面其實那個調整後的數字就是說實質經常性的薪資又降低了0.5%是連續3年來的負數那總實質總薪資也減少了1.04%是7年來的負成長首度的負成長所以這就是告訴我們是確實是越來越窮那加薪的速度遠遠跟不上"},{"start":9319.426,"end":9345.597,"text":"那通膨現在萬物起漲現在說光是外食族現在要買一個100塊以下的便當買得到嗎應該買不到啦不過就像雞腿便當大概120塊啦排骨便當中南部有大概大概50塊那租金啊如果租房呢現在1萬塊以下的房屋還有嗎就房屋啦我們說的租屋啦欸那個可能要分租啊分租"},{"start":9347.275,"end":9374.466,"text":"我會講我們現在很多戲稱說臺北市要租6千塊7千塊8千塊房屋那個叫做鬼屋啦叫做鬼屋啦所以你就知道說多恐怖啦那現在我們的實質經常性薪資都是負數那大家都在討論這樣子的情況那剛剛我們前面幾位委員也都有把這個都問到這些那通膨跟薪資水平之間的面臨的挑戰到底我們只是"},{"start":9375.606,"end":9395.691,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9396.69,"end":9418.844,"text":"在這個這個會場裡面的我們的很多工作人員那薪水有沒有這個薪水有沒有4萬多5萬多那個我們所謂的那個薪資我跟各位包括一下是包括各項那個所謂的福利性所得就是他有老闆所負擔的勞退的費用通通都有在裡面"},{"start":9419.784,"end":9445.866,"text":"所以我說就是說其實很多基層的不管是我們的立法院的工作同仁還是很多基層的工人都一樣他們的薪水都是在這個我們剛剛公布的這個基層線以下平均數以下所以是非常非常辛苦的所以我想要請主計長就是說我們到底要怎麼樣才能夠解決這種低薪高通膨的問題"},{"start":9448.974,"end":9463.776,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下因為在經濟學上薪水就等於說他對這個企業或這個單位的貢獻有多少或他產出出來價值有多少所以他應該要他接受就是說有一個良好的"},{"start":9464.036,"end":9479.155,"text":"．"},{"start":9479.275,"end":9483.938,"text":"那補貼,你能提舉意嗎?怎麼樣來補貼?讓民眾覺得好過,覺得說不會越來越窮。年輕人喔,他們都會預有津貼,一個人寫一個補助五千,兩個就一萬,或者是"},{"start":9495.624,"end":9507.364,"text":"是對那個租屋族我們有一個那個這些各項可能地方政府也都在做啦生意補貼啊然後這個生意補貼地方政府都把新的那個蓋我們是沒顧的啦"},{"start":9510.051,"end":9515.818,"text":"每個月五千啦!每個月五千啦!經營的啦!我們在這邊討論這些問題是要找出怎麼樣解決這個薪資的問題跟這些物價上漲的問題但是我發覺我們在"},{"start":9529.815,"end":9554.406,"text":"談論這些不管是怎麼樣提高基本薪資都是在美化數字永遠跟不上所以政府要怎麼樣去調控這些通膨有沒有做一個有效的意識通膨這個才是重點有時候市場制度我們必須尊重但是我們是不恰當的一個市場物價上漲公平會他就要看看有沒有聯絡壟斷"},{"start":9557.687,"end":9580.9,"text":"法務部就看他們有沒有囤積居期好 主計長我們要考慮到真實的數字不是美化過後的數字好不好我們的統計數字都是真實的我現在百姓的生活這個生活痛苦指數不斷的升高啊非常非常的高啊對不對好不好應該加油好不好謝謝我們請沈 沈記長謝謝 請沈記長"},{"start":9587.79,"end":9588.558,"text":"總統會議"},{"start":9590.854,"end":9618.685,"text":"委員好市長好到今年二月底受理這個申辦我們有一個300億租金補貼計畫那受理的大概61萬戶合定的建樹43萬戶那有超過三成包括30%的人拿不到這個補貼那我本期認為說這個300億的補貼政策是好的但是實際上拿到的卻不到七成"},{"start":9619.639,"end":9644.487,"text":"那你可不可以告訴我為什麼這個因為有一些大家因為租嘛有些隱瞞所以造成有一些希望能夠避稅所以造成一些問題我直接問重點時間的問題我在這個社群平台上面看到就是說無房屋稅籍無房屋稅籍"},{"start":9645.566,"end":9673.351,"text":"有些這個就是說他申請的時候第一期通過了第一期通過補貼但是第二期卻被討回因為他沒有房屋稅集沒有稅單那應該是要去要求房東要補稅房屋稅單應該要補這個房屋稅嘛結果不是他等到來是把這個處課我們說的房客申請的申請補貼的房客取消他的補貼要他歸還"},{"start":9674.491,"end":9690.431,"text":"啊這樣子對嗎?這樣不對嘛對不對你們規定說在申請補貸的時候不需要智慧房東嘛也不需要房東同意嘛那當然他也拿不到他也不知道有沒有房屋稅籍啊他就是因為有需要"},{"start":9691.192,"end":9709.739,"text":"所以他才也符合規定所以他才在申請這個租屋補貼可是你補貼他之後又或者他在申請過程當中你就直接告訴他說你不符規定那第一期為什麼第一期會符合規定補貼他那之後第二期還要叫他返還是"},{"start":9710.936,"end":9732.104,"text":"我要問一問你說第一期在審查的時候是亂審嗎?還是說他有租屋的事實啊可是你補貼報他之後反正回來又給他拖回來然後可是不是證明你第一期在審查的時候是亂審查這個我們會照內政部在處理這個的時候不要讓人家有那個錯覺說是一個選擇性的因為"},{"start":9736.064,"end":9752.293,"text":"是不是因為選舉前就是在社群平台上面到處在傳是不是因為選舉前就是隨便審啊 太過分了啊 選了啊 再叫其他人來 對不對 這我不管你們的想法是怎麼樣你們的做法是怎麼樣 如果有漏洞我們趕快把它填補"},{"start":9753.434,"end":9779.023,"text":"那我們要符合公平機制讓我們申請這個租屋優惠的這一些房客就是我們這些租屋主能夠有一個好的依據那房東願不願意提供或者說他有沒有房屋稅籍應該是要求房東去補這個房屋稅而不是要房客去去去要求返還他的補貼嗎對不對好不好我們的想法很好我們會告訴內政部OK好謝謝沈議長謝謝"},{"start":9784.83,"end":9786.312,"text":"稍為質詢請吳立華吳委員謝謝主席有請主計長請朱主計長"},{"start":9804.202,"end":9820.971,"text":"主計長您好請教主計長您覺得補助收入跟稅客收入對政府機關而言哪一種比較好會比較期待哪一種收入從中央的一個觀點"},{"start":9821.971,"end":9838.643,"text":"．"},{"start":9840.136,"end":9855.475,"text":"主計長您幾乎已經是把我想要問的態度已經講出來了事實上根據我們的預算法我們的總預算案應該要在快進年度開始的一個月前也就是11月底前要由立法院議決"},{"start":9856.616,"end":9881.703,"text":"可是我們看到資料過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀通常都會到12月又或者到1月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到1月甚至是2月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題"},{"start":9883.283,"end":9900.574,"text":"主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前"},{"start":9901.707,"end":9922.712,"text":"他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%"},{"start":9927.293,"end":9944.769,"text":"到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫"},{"start":9945.59,"end":9966.745,"text":"山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等"},{"start":9967.565,"end":9983.07,"text":"然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況"},{"start":9985.191,"end":10001.355,"text":"他的地制法這個83之七他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區"},{"start":10003.436,"end":10031.448,"text":"他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看"},{"start":10033.049,"end":10053.388,"text":"這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下"},{"start":10055.41,"end":10071.787,"text":"你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講"},{"start":10072.788,"end":10090.768,"text":"既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎"},{"start":10092.389,"end":10119.511,"text":"對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區"},{"start":10120.802,"end":10143.869,"text":"你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎對 贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛 對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長"},{"start":10154.426,"end":10171.569,"text":"委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢"},{"start":10172.13,"end":10188.037,"text":"他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了"},{"start":10190.818,"end":10211.583,"text":"那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長"},{"start":10212.583,"end":10226.658,"text":"您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多"},{"start":10228.82,"end":10234.842,"text":"我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的"},{"start":10255.509,"end":10255.709,"text":"第2個問題就是說"},{"start":10271.305,"end":10288.916,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10289.296,"end":10317.831,"text":"連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢"},{"start":10318.431,"end":10343.431,"text":"過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限"},{"start":10344.292,"end":10358.92,"text":"但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多"},{"start":10359.54,"end":10379.542,"text":"那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧"},{"start":10380.939,"end":10396.302,"text":"所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣"},{"start":10396.783,"end":10402.364,"text":"但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方"},{"start":10418.468,"end":10418.928,"text":"下一位質詢請李崑成李委員"},{"start":10452.098,"end":10456.664,"text":"謝謝主席我們請主計長請朱主計長主計長好辛苦了這個"},{"start":10464.776,"end":10484.485,"text":"看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資"},{"start":10485.645,"end":10505.442,"text":"這也是國際友台制中的一個高度的政治意義可是就預算法來探討這種編列方式它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主席處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在"},{"start":10506.479,"end":10508.72,"text":"我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨便利"},{"start":10523.684,"end":10551.098,"text":"一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列的意義要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是你說是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個"},{"start":10553.158,"end":10565.86,"text":"堅決的堅持的臺灣而且是他一個他居然有有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編"},{"start":10567.73,"end":10587.486,"text":"單獨編列嘛不是跟之前可能就是啊跟其他的印太地區啊編在一起有特別把它提出來啦那只是就這個這種編列方式就這個運算法的這個的意義來請教這個主計長那剛剛主計長也說這個是有特別他有他的法律的關係他的效益在好那本席再請教"},{"start":10588.677,"end":10613.459,"text":"一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用"},{"start":10614.079,"end":10629.226,"text":"那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億"},{"start":10641.431,"end":10669.945,"text":"是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上它有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒"},{"start":10670.625,"end":10671.085,"text":"那主計長的想法勒?"},{"start":10691.923,"end":10693.824,"text":"那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":10717.818,"end":10738.767,"text":"那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了緊接溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和我剛剛主計長講了好多次溫和就是"},{"start":10746.09,"end":10770.226,"text":"是還沒有超過警戒右隊的對對對因為在這個110年之前這個都沒有超過2%然後111、112連續兩年超過那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個3.08%再加上台電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委龔明星他也說如果這個電價漲了10%"},{"start":10772.748,"end":10797.511,"text":"推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高"},{"start":10798.411,"end":10826.957,"text":"續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎"},{"start":10827.79,"end":10835.995,"text":"但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了也但是不必過於悲觀啦不必過於悲觀好本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德"},{"start":10857.587,"end":10875.255,"text":"我們的超額儲蓄每年都創新高2024年的預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%大概每年都有增加但是儲蓄是美的但是超額儲蓄好嗎?"},{"start":10876.796,"end":10897.155,"text":"超額儲蓄在我們講說這個儲蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像去做金融做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行"},{"start":10898.035,"end":10899.016,"text":"但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始"},{"start":10927.153,"end":10954.134,"text":"我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上"},{"start":10955.177,"end":10973.457,"text":"對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且"},{"start":10975.526,"end":11004.498,"text":"是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個"},{"start":11005.12,"end":11031.174,"text":"具體的建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收"},{"start":11031.934,"end":11033.316,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11053.298,"end":11071.347,"text":"稅收項目,比如說在綜合所得稅上面,過去是基進成長率,現在可以看基本工資的調整,還有政策利率的調升。營業稅方面,我們看民間消費率的成長。營業交易稅方面,我們當然是維持日均的成交值,選擇區間不同。"},{"start":11072.788,"end":11092.086,"text":"銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數"},{"start":11096.55,"end":11116.968,"text":"委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":11131.28,"end":11136.985,"text":"首先本席肯定審計部長久以來有依法獨立行使審計職權不受不當的干涉有提出中央及地方縣市政府的審核決算報告"},{"start":11157.847,"end":11180.813,"text":"那在我看到你們對這個111年因為今天很多人都提很多我們全國的事情應該來講一些金門的這個相關的這個審計和主計方面的事宜111年金門縣總預算的執行結果稅率決算數是123億多是近5年的新高當然是因為我們很主動積極地爭取中央補助款"},{"start":11181.573,"end":11205.435,"text":"但是受那個COVID-19那個影響捐贈和規費不如預期所以金門縣的自主財源的金額比例從40億33%比107年減少了8億多就是少了11.03%等於我們的金門縣的這個自酬財源比例就是變成近5年的這個新低顯示這是你們寫的顯示對金門對這個上級政府"},{"start":11208.517,"end":11233.203,"text":"補助收入的仰賴日益生那110年金門縣的稅率稅出相比短處17億多連續6年的這個巨額短處財政的這個失衡狀況就越來越嚴重了雖然我們現在是沒有債務但是我們還要付很多包括救治的公務人員退休金優惠存款例行就要付53億多對日後的財政金門縣日後財政可能產生這個負擔這個是你們寫的"},{"start":11235.464,"end":11258.196,"text":"你們的這個報告對因為那個金門雖然沒有負債但是我們觀察出來他現在每年都有短軸現在的大部分本島的縣市每年的都有大部分都開始有剩餘有都已經有剩餘的金門出現反現象對就是因為財政的財政就是越來越差了他有短軸所以我們想請那個主計來談一下主計長謝謝主計長"},{"start":11265.629,"end":11284.354,"text":"主計長好來那個你們有一個各直轄市和縣政府的財力及時表對吧對根據這個規定就是中央對直轄市縣政府的計劃型補助款按照這個及時表給不同的比例對吧對那基本是第幾級啊你們總共有5級嘛齁"},{"start":11287.434,"end":11303.864,"text":"對5級對金門是第幾級?第三級我們金門為什麼第三級?第三級是哪些?台南市、高雄市、新竹市我們是離島欸跟台南高雄排在一起我們有一個那個集次的那個行之多年的一個方法你們的標準是什麼呢?"},{"start":11305.545,"end":11324.194,"text":"那個如果是直轄數的話因為有6個第一級1個第二級2個第三級3個阿另外16個的話阿第三級會有5個第4級5個第5級6個我知道就是每一個級次就是我們是採相對的概念對就是555嘛我也知道你們按照3個這個5個5個5個"},{"start":11327.675,"end":11345.384,"text":"對我是說縣市的吼五個五個五五六又16個縣市那你看一百年吼民國一百年六組成立吼這個各縣市這個有變化我們同樣是離島的澎湖跟連江就是馬祖都從第三級跳到第五級為什麼我們金門還是在第三級那個金門的大家也都知道"},{"start":11346.204,"end":11353.167,"text":"今天到今天都沒有借錢過我知道今天沒有借錢啊但是你這樣子是懲罰我們這種好小孩模範生喔因為我們沒有借錢所以你們就要我們自己輸多一點啊"},{"start":11363.947,"end":11379.69,"text":"不是就是那個補助款就是本來就是說比較好的我們就是比例比較少比較好的財政就補助少一點比較差的財政就補助多一點所以基本線應該把財政弄爛一點讓你們補助多一點自己少出一點比爛就對了那個是我跟各位講我們的方法如果你往上升的話我們還有獎勵措施"},{"start":11386.732,"end":11412.791,"text":"你看我們110年到110年你看我們的財政狀況我們現庫存款已經從195億剩下105億我們這幾年已經減少了90億可是我跟各位講你們的累計剩餘還是那個成長財政的剩下的那個累計剩餘還是成長率還是全國第二高就是我們表現還是很好因為金門高粱酒還是算賣得不錯我們也是努力在喝但是"},{"start":11415.633,"end":11435.284,"text":"但是你可以這樣子讓我們為了為了我們自己的財政努力的喝高粱酒但是讓我們中央給我們補助館一直聞風不動的要自己出這麼多嗎?那你就好像學生如果考試考得好那老師就不給獎勵你說讓我們把他考到不要每次都考90分要考到50分這樣才會獎勵我們"},{"start":11437.225,"end":11451.835,"text":"我沒有讓你們說是怎麼說什麼你們都是在第三集嘛是那個縣市對第三集啊我們怎麼跟臺南啊高雄啊這大都會啊新竹我知道縣市就是新竹市嘛現在新竹有科學園區啊"},{"start":11458.629,"end":11478.986,"text":"阿你們也有很好的地理環境阿我就說阿你就夠盡都會不會救錢阿相對其他的阿所以你想說我們如果是救錢你才會給我們補助多一點就對了是這樣因為我們沒有借錢所以我們只好自己出多一點錢來給自己地方做建設所以我們如果是有救錢你就會給我們更多一點因為就會變成因為我們就可能有負債有負債就可以從3級改成4級改成5級你是鼓勵我們這樣做嗎沒有沒有你講一下"},{"start":11482.789,"end":11507.994,"text":"貴縣的累計剩餘65億他的那個成長很少啊已經從100多億剩下200億剩下100億再剩下60億了很快會變負債僅次於台北市我知道啦我的意思是說你剛剛的說法是說因為我們的五存幾億所以你就沒有辦法給我們那麼好的那麼多補助沒有我想請問主計長所以如果我們去借錢你就會給我們比較多的補助因為我們的財政就會變差嘛"},{"start":11508.254,"end":11510.356,"text":"沒有這種推論沒有這種推論因為我跟你講我給這個是什麼軍門的補助款那個是什麼跟一"},{"start":11520.95,"end":11541.336,"text":"一一三跟一一二比較的話他的成長啊是是百分之九點七那個我知道我知道我們很努力我們很努力爭取那個是你這是總額我說的是比例就是說一樣建設下來第三級的縣市比例補助多少啊比如他九十九十二"},{"start":11541.656,"end":11564.658,"text":"我們必須把財政收支方法就是要讓窮的能夠得到更多一些...主計我只是想請問你喔我們金門縣沒有那麼我們很辛苦啦我們為什麼就是要比澎湖跟馬祖多兩級我們自己出的錢就是要多出很多比如他們補助90%我們要如果是馬祖跟連江同一個建設是馬祖跟這個澎湖啦同一個建設"},{"start":11565.239,"end":11568.022,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":11585.157,"end":11610.508,"text":"對不對?你要讓我們把財政...就讀書比較好一直考90分那就是不給你多一點獎勵你再考到50分呢獎勵多一點糖果給多一點這樣子很不公平啦你要不要思考一下怎麼來幫助我們金門縣那我們比如說不要...我是希望將來跟馬祖跟那個澎湖一樣第5集啦啊不行你至少讓我們第4集我們怎麼跟新竹市比啊不是用喊的嘛你看看齁你是"},{"start":11614.89,"end":11633.516,"text":"你看你是用近3年度決算審定的自有財源比率的平均值嘛自有財源比率的平均值嘛我們排名第6啦現在排名第4要降到第6才能變成第4級嘛就是說我們必須自有財源降低嘛"},{"start":11634.136,"end":11644.703,"text":"一時而後我們久的要賺少一點我們才可以中央補助多一點那你就是懲罰好學生你理解我在說什麼嗎?你剛剛不是這個意思嗎?我知道財政部那個部分包括各個部會都有相關這個履歷我都知道我只是要說在最根本的地方我們希望來"},{"start":11664.537,"end":11682.196,"text":"解決這個問題就是我們的這個分級裡頭我們覺得說我們不能跟新竹市比啦科學園區我們跟馬祖跟澎湖一樣都是離島縣市我們的財政之所以好是因為我們自己真的很努力在經營這個金酒"},{"start":11683.817,"end":11688.178,"text":"今天不能讓我跟馬祖跟澎湖一樣那至少讓我們至少到第4屆這個部分你是不是幫我們思考一下不然我覺得當好學生好像一直沒有受到鼓勵啊"},{"start":11706.944,"end":11736.144,"text":"您了解我的意思嗎?我剛才講到因為是好學生所以我們的一般補助款增加的是在縣市排名是第二謝謝我知道我沒有增加補助款是因為比如說縣市政府要努力去寫計畫我們在中央要努力跟各個部會要求拜託施壓來增加相關的各個計畫的這個補助款你這個整個回去沒關係主計長你這個回去想一下這個是本期財政委員會的重點"},{"start":11736.664,"end":11736.904,"text":"陳克勤議員"},{"start":11767.952,"end":11780.25,"text":"來,接著我們請羅敏帥委員主席各位出列席官員大家好,主席可請朱記長請朱記長朱記長你好"},{"start":11784.036,"end":11801.506,"text":"你在這個位置等了很久了可以說是一夫當光萬夫莫及一個人擋在這邊我想請講主席講一個做很多的事情10年前台灣的貧富懸殊大概是多少"},{"start":11802.817,"end":11812.791,"text":"他們今天台灣的貧富懸殊又是多少就是如果分為五等份的話十年前那個最高的時候是6.3到6.4級到6.3到6.4間那目前是6.15謝謝"},{"start":11818.001,"end":11839.261,"text":"所以你意思說貧富懸殊變低了最近幾年稍微有提高一點但是跟前面的您講的10年前是稍微還是有下降你講的這個數據喔你自己講的很開心我們可以把那個資料拿來看看但是我可以把那個圖給那個委員看你有可能即將離去喔離去的時候臨上秋波啊"},{"start":11844.264,"end":11858.83,"text":"你跟拜登一樣要繼續要再擔任主計長 我不會啦 我不會啦 我的任期蔡總統是我的派練室他發的他5月19日離開我也是5月19日離開民調數據可能也會說話 就是主計長在一般民眾的心裡"},{"start":11865.839,"end":11883.272,"text":"是覺得他應該要做點事情的他是應該要把環境改善好的他是應該對於社會上的一些弱勢一些負責越負的情況貧者越貧的情況應該要做點事把他拉近應該讓所有的年輕人"},{"start":11885.673,"end":11889.655,"text":"對你可以說但是年輕人他會覺得不滿足啊你想想看"},{"start":11907.702,"end":11917.366,"text":"一顆茶葉蛋,請問一下茶葉蛋一顆多少錢?價格不一樣啦,你問我,我會準備啦,對不對茶葉蛋啦,那個全家來的話OK的一顆15塊啦15塊?13塊啦,甚至7-11還是10塊,18塊的是手掌蛋啦手掌蛋那個還有一個是19塊的我不會再被你騙啦對不對"},{"start":11934.382,"end":11953.692,"text":"對你去查了很清楚所以你要更應該要了解到年輕人一般民眾心裡的痛苦以前我們去吃一個蛋一個蛋才五塊啊現在吃一個蛋要十幾塊主計長你還這樣笑嘻嘻的其實我心裡是覺得蠻難過的齁因為我們常講說一夜之秋"},{"start":11956.733,"end":11984.902,"text":"我覺得這個叫什麼一旦知愁啊一顆蛋就可以了解到民眾的內心是多麼的憂愁每個年輕人在台灣就好像是一隻鐵籠裡面的松鼠一直轉一直轉那請問主計長他哪一天他可以下來他可以看到外面的陽光看不到嘛因為薪資永遠趕不上物價的上漲"},{"start":11986.257,"end":11999.463,"text":"一般的民眾啊就每天就好像是一個機器人一樣人是活的心是死的在台灣他看不到他永遠的未來看不到摧殘規律的明天"},{"start":12000.342,"end":12022.57,"text":"主計長在此同時我們都把那個這個所有的視野都關著關在台灣自己看然後看的數字覺得哇宣布的好開心那我請教一下主計長現在新加坡平均的實質薪資是多少新加坡因為他物價水水的高他們大概薪資大概接近我們的大概是"},{"start":12022.99,"end":12025.454,"text":"所以至少他一個月平均是可能領新台幣8萬以上"},{"start":12036.96,"end":12062.097,"text":"你知道現在有多少台灣的年輕人他不要在台灣工作寧願跑到新加坡去工作很多外流的人才金融的人才很多人都跑出去了很多人他的心理想法就是說我去新加坡工作沒關係我每天吃泡麵我辛苦一點我挨個三年五年我可以賺得奔滿"},{"start":12064.441,"end":12076.273,"text":"欸錢就可以累積很多可以賺很多的錢至少人個幾年回來就有一些收入可是在台灣目前的情況就是三個字苦苦苦"},{"start":12078.151,"end":12092.745,"text":"所以我希望主計長你在可能即將要離去的這個時間你也沒有什麼壓力了你應該把你內心真正對台灣人民好對年輕人可以照顧的事情你要勇敢去做比如說"},{"start":12096.048,"end":12121.827,"text":"與其錢亂亂花倒不如去年稅收超徵我們沒有亂花我們沒有亂花每一個人今年度就發一萬塊紅包不要再騙我說沒錢了每次都說沒錢最後還不是照發83條第4款不要用那個發紅包就是利用83條第4款那個又會碰到那個所以我們最後也是發了"},{"start":12123.248,"end":12147.808,"text":"立法院你也很清楚每次講不行的最後都行你不要把人民的血汗錢花在浪費的特別預算上面與其亂花倒不如趕緊來照顧年輕人年輕人多麼盼望你的一萬塊你上次一萬塊沒有發結果你發六千塊我沒有去理"},{"start":12151.214,"end":12174.799,"text":"我表達了實質的抗議因為你如果給我一萬塊我一萬塊我會捐出去但是我希望今年你可以從善如流不要讓他發錢把錢發給每個民眾一人普發現金一萬塊發給每個人紅包一萬塊主計長你能不能最後做點好事"},{"start":12176.107,"end":12204.284,"text":"我錢可能要用在更恰當的方向可能要發在更恰當的方向沒有,你所用的這個錢簪啊很多現在都是蚊子管沒有啦,錢簪我們就有做安根縣啊跟那座維園選根基啊安根縣有做到,我要謝謝你啊但是很多沒有做到的啊做得好,我們會獎勵可是做不好的實在太多太多了就是唯一的要求就一個人發一萬"},{"start":12205.245,"end":12231.442,"text":"那剛剛有講到說臺電可能現在即將又要塑造這個氛圍要漲價其實民眾已經受不了啦主計長你應該要講點良心的話齁就是臺電如果漲價漲10%那以後所有的士農工商我們所面臨的吃吃喝喝交通會不會漲我們早餐店會不會漲"},{"start":12232.537,"end":12251.653,"text":"另外一波可怕的漲幅即將在電價漲10%以後又陸續漲開那請問主計長你能不能保證所有壽星階級所有年輕人薪資也可以漲10%今天委員報告一下我們這個"},{"start":12254.038,"end":12277.007,"text":"這個臺電的漲價倒是考慮到它臺電的那個成本我們不能夠一直說用那個預算去貼補因為不是每年都有稅收超出主計長那又來了選前說不會缺電啊臺灣不缺電選前騙選票選後又繼續要跟人民撈鈔票來補貼臺電缺電跟電價反映成本是兩回事"},{"start":12282.145,"end":12283.986,"text":"那你為什麼要漲?那台電為什麼要漲?那你為什麼說台灣不缺電?選錢啊!"},{"start":12300.185,"end":12327.307,"text":"我們也講說不缺電了而且台灣目前也沒有說有缺電台灣目前也沒有所謂的缺電了那你說台灣缺不缺電目前沒有目前明天會不會有我不曉得那個是對你在明天不曉得的情況在未來不知的情況你來恐嚇人民說一定要漲10%不然台電會倒"},{"start":12328.851,"end":12342.482,"text":"台電倒跟一般的受薪階級有什麼關係?你政府要讓他不要倒啊你可以買軍購花幾千億幾千億這樣花那你為什麼要讓台電倒?還有一個美國現在他編列預算說要給台灣一個預算那請問"},{"start":12350.919,"end":12373.152,"text":"主計長台灣可以接受其他國家編列的預算嗎那你這個帳上怎麼算沒有他那個帳的話他們來就是說看是我不曉得他捐的方式如果捐的是錢我們當然會列在那個預算裡面如果捐的是物資那個國防部會列帳冊管理謝謝"},{"start":12376.163,"end":12384.107,"text":"請問他編的項目是要做什麼用?是補助台電呢?還是編的預算要分給我們每個人一萬塊當作基金?你如果他是編武器的話,那我覺得這個不妥當吧?"},{"start":12397.13,"end":12424.989,"text":"你在其他的國家編武器鼓勵大家趕快兩邊去打仗你為什麼不編一個和平基金讓兩岸鼓勵趕快來洽談和平的事項兩岸不要打仗兩岸不要打架這個才是編的好的預算嘛你這個就好像以前小學在念書的時候一方面叫人家乖乖乖然後有的同學就慫恿你打他你打他打你"},{"start":12425.529,"end":12440.94,"text":"打完以後我買乖乖給你吃這是什麼邏輯我們希望的是兩岸的和平我們不是需要拿到的預算然後買武器那你買武器對方說他要買武器兩邊就變成軍事的一個競購"},{"start":12444.134,"end":12457.763,"text":"對台灣有好嗎?我們也需要和平可是現在是人家對我們最後因為時間到了那個今年的經濟成長率預測是多少今年的經濟成長率我們目前的預估是3.43"},{"start":12460.504,"end":12477.391,"text":"我希望還是要體恤所有全民的辛苦就好像臺灣的股市現在已經兩萬點又上上下下上上下下的真正賺到錢的少之又少整個股市就一直台積電"},{"start":12479.366,"end":12479.386,"text":"謝謝謝謝羅委員"},{"start":12507.526,"end":12525.834,"text":"接下來我們請王世堅王委員主席有請我們的主計長請朱主計長"},{"start":12530.354,"end":12546.938,"text":"謝謝主席主席長你今天上午在受訪的時候還有答詢委員的時候你提到那你講了一些我還以為你現在就要走了你是說你不會那麼丟臉主動表態留任對"},{"start":12559.451,"end":12581.324,"text":"那我現在就跟你講那你也不能丟臉說走就走不是這樣嗎你要為國尊重啦我那個是說走是我的決定那人家要不要留任是人家的我不必去對要負責任到最後一分鐘對就這樣5月19號晚上12點因為這幾天"},{"start":12586.838,"end":12609.314,"text":"昨天你公布的一些數字那確實我們現在不論是在薪資所得的差距收入的差距或者這個經濟成長方面通貨膨脹方面確實有一些狀況我以為是不是你馬上公布了這些招的狀況那就要趕快跑掉"},{"start":12610.56,"end":12632.694,"text":"要留下來負責任啦至少這兩個月做一天和尚敲一天鐘我請教你一下齁在你可以掌管的兩兆八千億這麼多的預算編列裡面其實你就是國家的帳房不是嗎"},{"start":12633.965,"end":12649.622,"text":"事實上既然你是國家的帳房那你也遇見到你們調查到的一些數字那可能我們會碰到一些通貨膨脹一些經濟成長方面碰到的問題"},{"start":12650.745,"end":12668.805,"text":"那你有沒有對各部會提出警語啦你怎麼可以任由他們愛編多少就編多少不是這樣嗎沒有沒有跟委員報告一下我們的這些報告都是在發表之前就有通知各部會說會這個樣子"},{"start":12671.187,"end":12696.212,"text":"那個各部會他就要採訪報告之前就有通知就有說說沒有沒有在這份報告裡面是沒有通知你把你有通知的你通知哪幾次你會整給我好不好你有沒有告知各部會對各部我們都公布在網站上各部會應該了解我們都有跟在要發布之前我們有跟總統副總統院長"},{"start":12697.188,"end":12717.695,"text":"副院長都有做做一個說簡單的指數二月份誒物價指數急速的上升這到3.08這已經達到通貨膨脹的標準你很清楚嗎對不是這樣嗎跟那個委員報告一下因為去今年的過年是在二月"},{"start":12718.135,"end":12736.485,"text":"去年的過年是在一月所以說去年的二月的基數比較低是因為我們的物價都是跟上個月去年的同一個月份比較所以去年的基數比較低所以就會比這部分你說明得很清楚我知道啦但是這確實是個大的警訊不是嗎"},{"start":12738.606,"end":12764.505,"text":"更何況二月是過年沒錯可是再來四月是最傷腦筋的部分欸二月都這樣只是因為一個過年物價就這樣導致通貨膨脹那每年過年都會通貨膨脹囉那再來四月電價要大幅上漲的話如果跟上一年的過年的月份也是一樣的話就不會說是有3.08的現象"},{"start":12768.117,"end":12791.616,"text":"那個並不是說碰到個年節那物價就會漲成這個樣子那是季節性的現在看到的不一樣現在看到的我們有潛在的通貨膨脹的危機我相信你很清楚我就跟你講四月份電價要上漲但是電價又不得不上漲那怎麼辦我想"},{"start":12793.337,"end":12819.735,"text":"主計總這一個部分你要多花點心思啦4月還在你任期內嘛不是嗎對 我有提出一些數據分析給那個相關的部會我必須跟委員報告一下我主計總處只是把數字呈現出來我不能因為這個數字去說你們該怎麼做因為政策是由各部會來決定這樣子啊 這個數字發出這個警語雖然不聽話我看數法不吧"},{"start":12824.177,"end":12839.125,"text":"都已經有這麼多的狀況他還在那邊用那麼高的租金去租那麼豪華的大樓那總共總花了連租金連連莊王花了3億6這個東西你何止僅餘你應該當面跟他講說你這是不對的"},{"start":12849.008,"end":12873.478,"text":"要反對他編列才對不是這樣嗎可是我報告一下他們有請國有財產署提供一些但是國有財產署有都提列不出來就是沒有辦法找到提列不出那麼好的適當的位置供他們去享用就對了因為在台北市中心要找出適當的空間並不可能我很感謝你把很多"},{"start":12874.497,"end":12874.677,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12891.819,"end":12920.598,"text":"現在我們上班族遇到這三老金的問題我們的工時越來越長那麼所得薪資越來越低而且貧富差距也是創下這10年來的最高根據你的數字前20後20差了6.15倍那這些都是狀況都是問題你有遇見到是很好那你也提到那個我們有高達"},{"start":12922.08,"end":12923.562,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12938.041,"end":12966.065,"text":"但是相對應的我相信以你這40年來的公職生涯你應該有很多好的具體的看法至少對各部會發出警語至少約束他們經常性預算的增加不是這樣嗎跟著我的報告我的公職生涯在就在主計總處來的話到5月19號才8年了那以前在健保局服務"},{"start":12966.747,"end":12978.253,"text":"對阿以前我是在學校教並沒有在公家機關很久謝謝喔那那你你在健保局的也不算公職生涯就對了對我那個時候是街調謝謝"},{"start":12980.168,"end":13006.21,"text":"那不算工資嗎建保局對是借調謝謝好那至少好你這8年以你學友專精你這8年來你對我們市政府的瞭解那你應該提出很多警語很多建言不是這樣對我們都有一些資料而且我都如實的表達沒有去美化這個數字而且我的認定"},{"start":13007.203,"end":13018.169,"text":"在這幾年我就是要讓首長每一個首長他們花錢要合法化而且要經過大院同意謝謝好時間暫停主計長你請回我再兩分鐘問一下我們的審計長委員好"},{"start":13032.974,"end":13053.626,"text":"市長對於改善所得分配這其實是刻不容緩我知道政府這8年來長時期都在做經濟部也有提出他們的幾項政策那我就是想讓你簡短的答覆說你認為啦以你的觀察你的監督你認為經濟部過去關於"},{"start":13059.482,"end":13065.687,"text":"要這個改善所得分配他們提出的這些政策你認為成效如何?"},{"start":13067.045,"end":13091.465,"text":"因為從主計總處的統計裡面他是擴大的再主要就是因為這些現在的因為科技上的一個問題有的很高有的很低大部分都很低有這樣的一個情形就是今年有青年有低薪的問題剛剛委員也顯示出來實足薪資也下降所以這個等個"},{"start":13092.626,"end":13106.098,"text":"頻率就開始產生不均這個部分我們審計部113年會通盤近期瞭解包括委員所提的經濟部的部分我們因為7月"},{"start":13108.055,"end":13121.49,"text":"都剛剛委員也有顯現他的那個薪資的貢獻那個都降下來了所以這幾分我們會來努力會來"},{"start":13125.033,"end":13146.222,"text":"那個公務員對我們各部會我們公家機關你特別有這個這樣子的實質的監督的考核我們立委在看到預算的時候沒辦法看到每一個層面那麼多我們比方說我們在這個我們只能監督財政部金管會這些"},{"start":13147.603,"end":13156.714,"text":"其他部會也會變成這個力有畏膽但是審計部你握有這個審計權你也可以"},{"start":13158.342,"end":13185.083,"text":"透過檢察院有糾舉有糾正這樣子的權利所以我相信你們講話各部會更能夠聽進去啦國家給你信託就對了我們立法院這個我們的執掌關係那我們這樣子對預算的審核對他們政策成效的如何我們檢討率可能不如你們"},{"start":13185.763,"end":13199.89,"text":"所以這一點我必須要特別要求你也算是拜託你們應該要對這一些政策實質下去做審查好不好好謝謝委員的鼓勵我們會來努力謝謝好謝謝來謝謝謝謝王委員喔接著我們請謝一鳳委員"},{"start":13214.704,"end":13232.467,"text":"主席好。我想要請我們主計長。主主計長。委員好。主計長早。你那個茶葉蛋調查沒有確實喔。我記得全家有一個麻辣茶葉蛋,好像二十幾塊。"},{"start":13234.156,"end":13255.281,"text":"因為我不曉得有瑪娜產業單位,我們的同仁知道,謝謝。那我想要請教你,你預估今年的CPI是1.85對,那個是沒有包括電價,謝謝。因為那個電價目前到底調多少,目前的幅度不曉得,我們沒有辦法做預估,謝謝。"},{"start":13257.748,"end":13276.627,"text":"所以是不包含電價嘛那你2月份你說是因為基期的關係所以年增率是3.08%可是如果加上電價咧比如說如果未來加上電價有沒有可能今年度的物價指數的征服會超過2"},{"start":13279.141,"end":13296.572,"text":"可能但是那要看那個未來的那個所謂的那個那個那個就是說蔬菜水果的一個情況因為蔬菜水果是一個未知數有沒有颱風啊或者是那個能源價格國際間的能源價格的影響"},{"start":13299.932,"end":13312.52,"text":"所以也有可能就是其他的蔬果的價格那當然了我看了去年度的就是說前幾年的如果物價上調的時候PPI也同樣都會上調那"},{"start":13315.784,"end":13337.58,"text":"生產那個PPI上升的時候會不會就是讓製造業的這個電價上漲的成本轉嫁到所有消費者可能可但是是不是完全百分之百轉嫁那個很難講那個我想委員很清楚的要看那個供需彈性而且他如果說技術進步的話他可以吸收"},{"start":13338.527,"end":13359.378,"text":"但是我是說但是大部分的情況下在這個電價上漲的時候都會轉嫁到消費者身上嗎那個是就是我們有直接直接效果直接效果因為我們民生用電腦的占CPI的全數大概是1.2%但是另外一個"},{"start":13359.918,"end":13386.654,"text":"那個就是從供給面來看委員清楚供給面來看的話他那個會不會轉嫁就是我剛才講的所以你覺得超過2%還是到2.5%你預測有時候人家你都看人家不一樣啊因為我要看他的一個漲幅他對於說漲價的程度那個是假定那個是假定的所以目前的漲價的幅度都是假定的"},{"start":13387.494,"end":13408.763,"text":"媒體說的：轉嫁的那應該要看它是否會有多少轉嫁而且它的據我知道台電的方案它可能會有一個規模大小可能漲幅可能會不一樣工業用電也漲幅不一樣是不是有據我知道有這個規劃未來這個要看電價審議委員會的那一個審議決定"},{"start":13412.81,"end":13432.851,"text":"但我們央行總裁我們楊總裁說未來CPI2%是常態你讚不讚同我是認為因為世界各國都是認為而且我們這個2%跟其他國家比較起來是比較低的在東亞這幾個國家我們只有比那個香港高"},{"start":13435.686,"end":13447.535,"text":"所以你覺得未來台灣的這個就是物價指數的上漲的年增率都是2%以上對那應該是國際間的比較我不敢說都是2%那個我剛才講的未知數是不確定的"},{"start":13451.739,"end":13454.782,"text":"還有一個事情這其實電價的上漲還有我們3月15號還有碳費的這個審議的那個第一次開會那你預估今年的經濟成長率是3.43%你認為"},{"start":13469.497,"end":13494.828,"text":"如果電價上漲然後還有我們攤費徵收等等相關的這些因素產生的時候你這個3.43%你有沒有信心可以達到跟那個委員報告一下我們的估計對那個電費的對GDP的影響大概是0.1個百分點所以不大當然要看到"},{"start":13495.612,"end":13507.026,"text":"展覆了如果他的展覆沒那麼多會比0.1更低所以你的模型裡面顯示電價對於GDP的成長是沒有影響的0.1跟委員報告0.1就是有200多億了"},{"start":13515.251,"end":13528.127,"text":"到底是有還是沒有?當然有啊!200多億不小啊!因為我們的GDP大概是今年可能接近25兆啊!那個0.1個百分點就是大概200多億啊!"},{"start":13530.845,"end":13550.173,"text":"你剛才聽起來像沒有,你現在又說有,如果碳費加進去?碳費的話目前什麼時候調到都還沒有確定所以還沒確定就對了對,我們也沒有再做那個估計不確定的東西我在每天都要發布說會怎麼樣這樣的會影響政策我一再強調我們"},{"start":13555.1,"end":13570.228,"text":"只做會計統計的一個工作那做政策的我們只做敘述統計不做那一種價值的一種敘述我可以跟你講以前的預測是在國外我們不要在這裡談學術性的問題我們討論一個在什麼樣子的情況下到底你預估的這個3.43%不會達成會怎麼樣不會達成"},{"start":13581.991,"end":13596.977,"text":"不過那個就是所謂的一個是什麼像那個是什麼油價的上漲油價今年度很因數很大是不是對油價因為我們估目前估計油價是以81塊多來好來估計80接近82塊來好來估計那據說將來油價的會一個很大的會有一個影響他的漲幅"},{"start":13611.224,"end":13611.464,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":13652.022,"end":13658.23,"text":"主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、"},{"start":13669.984,"end":13694.389,"text":"資深的審計人員跟主計人員要跟你們致敬你們為人民勘緊的荷包對國家貢獻是很大的齊凱今天要先給大家看一個畫面這個委員我相信很多資深的主計跟審計人員印象應該很深刻這是30年前同樣在這個地方財政委員會那陣的審計一定有跟蘇政平"},{"start":13697.383,"end":13716,"text":"立法委員王建宣當過財政部長的王建宣他質詢蘇貞平他這樣說他說有部分的機關以遠超過市價的價格去承租辦公室浪費了民脂民膏他整個審計中有風骨的蘇貞平他講"},{"start":13719.192,"end":13741.129,"text":"他已經開始注意這問題了：已經把最近幾年高價成豬的單位列為清查重點王建宣阿安盟：說你這老骨看能處理好誰：孫生平怎麼說：孫生平說這事我半年做不好我就切腹自殺媒體的評價是說：是一個有風骨的審計長"},{"start":13745.433,"end":13772.268,"text":"審計長很期待今天我執行的主計長叫審計長一樣是有風骨的好不好我們肯定主計人員跟審計人員的貢獻所以我今天把大家懷念的這個畫面調出來給大家看了可是呢我們來看下一張數位發展部我先問一件事情他為什麼一定要在市中心他租金為什麼一年半要花掉七千萬更離譜的"},{"start":13773.953,"end":13803.002,"text":"他為什麼要用掉裝潢費就三千萬朱記長主計長你懂說為什麼批准這筆預算那個我們是那個朱軍是一個整筆他他到底要要在發發在多少上面那個是我不能夠說因為他有去找國有財產署希望國有財產署幫忙他找結果都沒有適當的方式我打岔你的話你剛才說他一定要在市中心"},{"start":13804.551,"end":13827.761,"text":"大家看一下唐鳳怎麼說我在大上班我在大都沒關係數位服務本來為什麼一定要在市中心阿要在淡房區阿他說直接拿這個筆點下去就可以批改阿指紋上去就可以簽公文阿他就不跟你講我在哪裡上班都不是很重要欸主計長"},{"start":13831.84,"end":13857.573,"text":"主計長,行政院對於所有的部會所有的機關在外面出辦公室是有要點有明確規範的他現在兩個部門他在新光大樓354人對不對才354個人喔他為什麼一定要在市中心為什麼354個人要用到一年半用到七千萬這不是民主民高嗎跟大家委員報告一下他們是"},{"start":13861.618,"end":13884.266,"text":"他這個是過渡時期他未來是行政院的曾經在今年1月的時候的你能不能從今天回去檢討這筆錢不要再編了我再問你一個重要的事好不好他為什麼用掉3000萬的裝潢費用今天最新的新聞立法院院長韓國瑜把總務處長換掉了為什麼?一個立法院的裝潢費用30萬"},{"start":13893.073,"end":13908.463,"text":"數位部一間辦公室用掉三千萬的裝潢而且還是半個而已阿他有兩個地方對不對他一個清光大樓用掉三千萬差不多跟我們一百一十五個立法委員的裝潢費用差不多主計長我們兩個找時間把我審計中我們看一空間八角是不是第二個這個有沒有責任"},{"start":13921.448,"end":13936.273,"text":"這樣好不好 把他當初 招標、絕標、公文、契約一個禮拜送到本席辦公室 這個是可能要跟數位發展不一樣 因為我這邊不能調他的我這邊不能調我沒有那個權利你錢開了這次不是你的 我現在追一個責任第一個 當初主計單位裡面是誰"},{"start":13950.097,"end":13970.707,"text":"把這個批准的7000萬這是一個責任對不對?誰?把這個3000萬給他了?主計處都沒有責任?沒有責任嗎?對,他有他們的主計人員,他有他們的業務選擇那不是你管欸,你派到主計,你是一條鞭欸來來,抱歉抱歉,我今天時間我請問,請問審計,對不起"},{"start":13973.615,"end":13991.058,"text":"你應該是有豐古的審計審計長啦老蔣你這段時間我們看你的結算報告都老蔣寫得不錯可以嗎?審計部可以這樣發錢嗎?我們今年會查今年會查今年會查齁然後 主計長"},{"start":13992.267,"end":14005.705,"text":"你請你的在世衛部的主計人員把他的當初這個裝潢費用怎麼結標的、怎麼招標的公文一頁來上來幫我審。可以的話我們三個人一起去世衛部來看開箱。世衛部是空經過的是不是?為什麼要用3000萬的這個裝修費用?"},{"start":14008.589,"end":14020.019,"text":"可以請他們說明但是去調查他們的那個是不是要立法院我詳細前線不曉得本席要求還不行嗎?你要什麼程序?立委的前線不能調這個資料嗎?朱先生"},{"start":14028.683,"end":14032.367,"text":"政府資訊公開是應該的這個也沒有弊端的話何懼之有看多久提供啊這個招標資訊這些都很公開啊我去執行所有的單位你第一次回到說"},{"start":14046.624,"end":14070.075,"text":"你沒有前線不能把這個資料送來你是第一個欸我沒有時候不能送來因為我不是這不是立委明定的前線嗎而且幫人民勘檢荷包不是只有我是你這麼多的審計人員主計人員在這裡那個過部會的權責就是說他可以數位您可以要求數位我當然會去跟數位部要可是我對著你嘛你關錢的啊"},{"start":14072.097,"end":14092.8,"text":"你叫你的主計人員 欸 市委部有你的審計人員在嗎?有你的主計人員在嗎?當然有啊 有啊 你去拿啊 這個能不能這樣子 我必須 你不知道啊 以前所有的立法院員跟你講 要跟你拿資料 可能有弊端可能浪費的 你都這樣回答嗎 不是這樣子啦就是說"},{"start":14094.127,"end":14119.093,"text":"委員如果有必要的話可以請求他們提供好我就是有必要不是請求他們請求你這個主計長你們有派人在這個一條邊嘛齁有在數位發展部裡頭嘛那你們主計的人如果當初應該也會提出相關意見如果沒有是不是有相關責任這也是我們張委員下去要追究的所以你們如果覺得沒有問題就提供資料這沒什麼政府資訊公開又是沒有我要去看法律的程序到底怎麼走謝謝"},{"start":14120.751,"end":14138.882,"text":"朱主席你到底有什麼危難的地方?你現在完全違反立法院的職權要跟你要東西你怎麼可以這樣打?你這不是藐視國會嗎?不是藐視我一個立法院喔?是不是藐視國會?哪位同仁可以跟主席長講?"},{"start":14146.516,"end":14160.907,"text":"可以請那個署會說明但是調帳是不可以的來說明你這個招標的公開文件為什麼不行啊總統他要上去你說他的招標的過程怎麼提多少集招標、絕標"},{"start":14169.808,"end":14172.01,"text":"這個應該都有公開資訊阿齁?你們統整一下送給張委員阿?政府的工廠勒?"},{"start":14185.823,"end":14208.302,"text":"是跟專委員說明一下喔因為依照我們預算法的部分我們是針對他的預算執行情形可以來請他這個地方來提供這個說明預算執行情形至於委員你提到的是涉及到合約的這個部分那合約的部分交由數位部他來提供說明你如果叫他來要說明什麼當然是合約書招標決標的問題他要說什麼"},{"start":14211.725,"end":14237.012,"text":"主計處就請他跟你講什麼當然是帶這兩個最關鍵的文件啊你們就請社會發展部的主計單位提供給你們總這個總處這裡總處在上海立法院就好了然後你就叫他把我剛講的這個東西招標絕標的一個合約書招標絕標的合約書可以不可以那個那個跟他們拿來這個我必須祝貴定五祝貴定五這五三必拼那個審計長審計長這個我必拼"},{"start":14240.911,"end":14257.127,"text":"這個有秘密嗎?這大標、絕標阿大概在那個網站上阿對啊可能網站都已經有了你都還不給我還請主計總處整理出來就好了好不好好啦主計長一個禮拜啦一禮拜"},{"start":14259.049,"end":14265.774,"text":"一星期內一星期內把你認為可以給我的資料我剛要求的公開招標的文件結標的文件還有合約書三個案好不好另外問一個也是很扯的事情比扯零還扯的看看剛講的"},{"start":14286.73,"end":14306.268,"text":"這個有沒有行政責任的問題?這是不是牽扯到行政院搞不好都要糾正要談的問題?數位部本來要去什麼地方?要去南門市場的中繼站?代表省政府把你抓跌?把你抓跌?蓋了一個大家看那個畫面,美輪美奐,有八千萬的錢結果你叫數位部要那個地方?"},{"start":14311.806,"end":14334.394,"text":"那麼好的地方還被懲罰四年就把它拆掉這有沒有讓慧敏指名高這個中紀市長如果我沒記錯是臺北市政府的他去的啊你的土地啊那個國家的土地啊你做這個決策四年拆掉已經很離譜了我相信一般人民看了都心疼啦更離譜的你社會不公上"},{"start":14335.823,"end":14346.035,"text":"已經拆掉了喔大家看到這個畫面房子被拆掉了這個本來可以繼續用的啊南門市場搬進去搬出去之後東門市場代表執行委員會說他要用結果你們市委部去講說他要在這地方蓋大樓同理已經在承認要承認現在說不要"},{"start":14356.633,"end":14371.516,"text":"我所了解的是那個唐部長跟我講過他給他什麼地方的房子他就去住所以國有財產所給他什麼地方就去住現在因為他因為他沒有"},{"start":14372.751,"end":14385.622,"text":"沒有說是要或不要他有跟我講是國有財產署給他什麼地方房子他就去住所以他還是可能要去是不是沒有說不准去那一個地方將來又要做其他的一個用途他去了以後又要再搬"},{"start":14394.15,"end":14397.254,"text":"增加更多的裝潢費為了你數位部跟NCC要去已經拆了"},{"start":14409.793,"end":14438.213,"text":"你去那邊已經一圍平地了喔已經拆了你現在說沒辦法去我就跟他講那個房子是臺北市政府的對啊臺北市政府也是人民的錢啊人民納稅錢臺北市政府我們尊重那個地方自治行部長是跟我講政府要他去哪裡他就去哪裡朱國立我先請教你啦我們從人民的角度去看第一個一億八不應該花下去四年被拆掉這是第一個第二你站在主計長的"},{"start":14439.514,"end":14441.877,"text":"邀請行政院主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席"},{"start":14459.669,"end":14479.824,"text":"這樣事情本來很好解決的嘛 要怎麼使用的話 可能要問國有財產署 可能要問國有財產署 我不能跟說有某一個步驟就全盤把他的一個什麼 主計長你平常是很有擔當的人 你今天在回答事情 都是一些社會部的事情 你是有擔當的人的 你是我優秀的家中學長 你評價是高的 你現在都收到百位了"},{"start":14488.106,"end":14516.3,"text":"那個章委員齁我看這樣子齁第一個這個主計總處這邊麻煩提供...我們做個Ending好不好等一下等一下做個Ending今天審計長剛好在有風骨的審計長這個案子跟剛剛一樣查清楚好不好這次直接告訴我這個案子上次檢查你不只是糾正案我跟你說搞不好有好幾個人要被彈劾那個主計長你可以很清楚的表達這個案子你會查清楚"},{"start":14517.287,"end":14518.048,"text":"我們會對這個案子委員關心就是我們的事情我們來處理"},{"start":14534.072,"end":14550.411,"text":"好啦 主委長是這樣好不好 當了這麼多優秀的主計人員跟審計人員我一開始都放了那麼多懷念的這段時間我們的主計人員要辛苦 審計人員辛苦對國家有貢獻嘛 看見人民的包嘛你大部分的地方有守住了可是為什麼一個數位發展部"},{"start":14552.158,"end":14572.746,"text":"你一個辦公室你要怎麼租 要點是清清楚楚的三萬四十二個人可以租大大辦公室每一個人空間多大 這都是有要點的喔 有法規法例面幫人民看緊荷包主計總是有權利去調整 我們都會去調整學長 比較早調好 稍後拿給我"},{"start":14577.708,"end":14582.572,"text":"希望我們都是交通之光幫人民看緊荷包"},{"start":14603.386,"end":14621.459,"text":"主要前者是審計部,審計部要加油,審計部啦,審計長,審計部啦,剛才這個委員提的都是審計部的事情,審計部要加油,要提出來要請哪一位?好,我們請主計長"},{"start":14628.394,"end":14656.677,"text":"那個好這個建制原住民族族群主流化友善公共空間的計畫嚴明會提出來一再的被阻擋第一次第二次到第三次減少經費這已經核定了但是現在去檢討是說他的計畫的內容非常好但是一直被"},{"start":14662.311,"end":14668.835,"text":"像這樣的一個本來要蓋實處部落都市的原住民族的記惠所"},{"start":14670.1,"end":14694.267,"text":"因為你的經費減少所以只能剩下3處一個計劃一個計劃中長城計劃只有3處本來要10處減少了7處他不得不減少因為你的經費減少嘛不給他那麼多嘛所以他只好減少像這個營造文化公共空間也是一樣本來要20處"},{"start":14696.038,"end":14712.771,"text":"啊因為你經費不給他那麼多所以他只好減少啊是減少所以這樣的一個啊如果我們再去對比剛才講的那個啊那你看這個是這樣一個好請說"},{"start":14714.298,"end":14718.9,"text":"一個公建計劃公建計劃的話審核因為他要計劃審核通過才會到我們這邊編預算所以他的公建計劃每年有一定的我都問過了啦沒有我跟你講"},{"start":14732.467,"end":14753.795,"text":"很多單位都會最後把責任賴給主計總處,謝謝國發會召開這個計畫是報行政院,行政院交付給國發會來審查國發會審查所邀請的主要的就是主計處了沒有啦,我們主計處只是可以表示意見而已啦整個第一次提案,第二次提案,第三次提案後來"},{"start":14761.557,"end":14785.68,"text":"這個相關的這些最重要的都市原住民聚落的營造聚落永續新家園本來要改善六處然後是需要的經費都提供結果後來因為經費沒有給那麼多只好減少了所以這個部分變成是這樣的一個情形"},{"start":14795.879,"end":14796.7,"text":"我們就看預算書好了"},{"start":14815.848,"end":14843.595,"text":"一百一十三年今年的預算書只有編列六千萬,非常的少跟我在過去在臺灣省政府的時候針對都會期的中長城計畫要比真的是差太多了這裡面你看包含了都市地區的集會所、祭典場所、永續新家園的這些計畫"},{"start":14845.404,"end":14864.281,"text":"一百一十三年度才六千萬這麼大的都會期從基隆一直到高雄的都會期像這樣的一個經費真的是太少太少了而且很重要的我們來看這個一個新的計畫不該編的編了"},{"start":14873.57,"end":14897.079,"text":"該編的沒有編這個經費已經夠少了結果你看委託辦理計畫補助審查評比作業原則規劃建置資訊整合系統先導及教育訓練多少編了這麼多經費然後還有委託辦理什麼業務先導經費"},{"start":14900.646,"end":14926.17,"text":"什麼媒體政策及業務先導經費變了那麼多千萬、十萬、三百萬你想想看一個新的計畫我要蓋個部落機會所還沒有蓋啊我要蓋一個都市原住民的機會所還沒有蓋啊就花了這麼多的先導費該編的不編"},{"start":14932.833,"end":14939.839,"text":"現在這錢已經夠少了結果還先導費變那麼多所以這個部門的這個我們會去了解因為他的執行情況以及說他的那個為什麼我是建議了主計長請嚴明會把這些費用"},{"start":14952.91,"end":14953.73,"text":"已經拿去宣導了趕快制止好不好"},{"start":14970.742,"end":14970.802,"text":"羅智強委員"},{"start":15009.318,"end":15014.321,"text":"主席有請主計長跟審計長朱主計長陳審計長主計長剛我聽到你跟張祺凱委員的打詢那很抱歉本人就是去年召開記者會千拜託萬拜託"},{"start":15034.468,"end":15060.752,"text":"能夠把東門市藍門市場中繼站不要拆掉留給東門市場作為中繼站因為1.8億是民脂民膏你知道行政院當時給我的回答是什麼嗎我告訴你你剛一直推給臺北市政府說是臺北市政府的房子可是你知道臺北市政府來看一下公文"},{"start":15062.401,"end":15088.895,"text":"看下公文那個簡報的公文亮出來臺北市政府臺北市政府有要求請求行政院可以把華光特二用地作為東門市場改建的安置市場也就是希望能夠延期租用臺北市政府有沒有行為行政院我不清楚"},{"start":15089.349,"end":15108.522,"text":"我告訴你就是行政院啊你知道行政院怎麼回答嗎他說不行因為這塊地要來去蓋通訊傳播委員會跟速發部的辦公大樓所以無法同意貴府延長租用你去年6月5月是跟我這樣講的捏結果你剛剛跟張啟凱說"},{"start":15110.816,"end":15135.633,"text":"你說這個是臺北市政府臺北市政府的房子地是國產署的他拜託千拜託萬拜託說你今天南門市場改建完成東門市場也可以用這塊地就不用拆掉1.8億的這個建築物結果你們行政院跟我講不行那塊地我要蓋樹發布然後要求說"},{"start":15137.205,"end":15166.357,"text":"叫東門市場就在速發部這個所謂的準備要用的這個地南門市場終於在旁邊旁邊喔就是旁邊的空地另外蓋一個東門市場中繼站這已經是非常離譜的事情你速發部當時你有本事你就蓋旁邊工地啦那你為什麼今天硬要拆掉1.8億主計長我告訴你這不打緊審計長我也拜託你這件事也請審計部查一下這就算了"},{"start":15167.577,"end":15185.747,"text":"我上次質詢蘇發部我真的差一點要被氣死我說為什麼你們這個一定要拆那1.8億啊一定要幹你蘇發部辦公室你這麼偉大唐鳳竟然跟我講說沒有我沒有要去那裡啊所以原來全部都是一場誤會啊主計長我請問你你掌管我們國家主計省長掌管我們國家省計你覺得這樣浪費公帑是對的嗎"},{"start":15197.671,"end":15218.2,"text":"已經拆了瓦礫一堆了真的沒有這樣幹的啦那你是跟我講去年五月行政院給的公文是騙大家嗎他當時是用這個理由說要拆掉這個中繼站1.8用這個理由說要拆的耶那他是騙人的嗎"},{"start":15219.912,"end":15236.21,"text":"所以真的拜託審計長因為你有審計政府財政的一個責任嘛對不對這件事情真的好好去看到底發生什麼事情如果政府是這種態度來花公帑的話那真的人民的難怪訴發部被稱為所謂辦公室發展部啊"},{"start":15237.756,"end":15264.729,"text":"他不只是出擊要花很多然後裝潢要花很多你搞到行政院為了他拿他做藉口拆掉1.8億的南門市場中繼站現在東門市場遙遙無期啦東門市場就在中正區跟大安區交界數就是我的選區啦我代表他們出來開記者會的到現在沒給個交代啊對得起這些東門市場現在正在等待搬遷的這些我們攤商嗎你覺得對得起嗎"},{"start":15266.943,"end":15281.502,"text":"如果當時不要拆掉現在東門市場的攤商就已經進到裡面去東門市場就可以改建了你知道嗎現在遙遙無期啊不知道什麼時候蓋出東門市場中繼站什麼時候搬什麼時候蓋完什麼時候再搬回去"},{"start":15282.643,"end":15303.891,"text":"你浪費公帑整個耽擱了我們今天動門市場的整個改建的程序、過程還浪費了1.8億的公帑這事情離譜跟可惡就在這個地方所以在這邊我真的還是再次的拜託主計長跟審計長真的回去督導一下這個速發部、辦公室發展部"},{"start":15305.196,"end":15305.216,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":15328.749,"end":15350.163,"text":"好謝謝我們委員接著我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前不在林柱英委員林柱英林柱英林柱英不在徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在"},{"start":15351.587,"end":15358.669,"text":"今日登記發言委員具詢答完畢現在除了臨時提案共一案請議事人員宣讀臨時提案一案全國軍公教人員薪資分別於107年調升3%及111年與113年調升4%為免軍公教人員辛勞及貢獻引導民間企業共同加薪固執肯定"},{"start":15378.813,"end":15404.555,"text":"為調薪後對地方政府之財政支出中央補助支對象及標準比例卻有不同然而薪資調升當年對地方政府財政衝擊尤其劇烈且作為地方政府主要稅收來源之房屋稅、地價稅因近年房地產景氣趨緩而衰退再者地方政府負擔國中小教育人員及錦銷人事費人事費用亦屬沉重"},{"start":15405.556,"end":15429.176,"text":"遠考兩季年中央稅收均大幅超收情形．主計總處因於一個月內將地方公交人員調薪後．中央補助機制制度化．並針對調薪當年給予地方政府權額補助．以緩解調薪對地方政府財政之衝擊．提案人李燕秀、賴士寶、王宏威"},{"start":15430.905,"end":15457.597,"text":"林德福、顏寬衡、羅明才、陳玉珍以上宣讀完畢我們先請問這個行政機關有沒有什麼意見來請說我剛才跟那個提案委員提到說做文字修正就是主計總書應於一個月內就地方公教人員條件後中央補助制度化提出書面報告"},{"start":15458.357,"end":15485.108,"text":"以緩解條新對地方政府財政之衝擊也就是那個倒數第三那個將改為舊那個制度化後面是提出書面報告並針對條新當然給以地方政治全流補助那幾個字劃掉有跟提案委員溝通嗎他有同意嗎這個是把原來的這就把原來的要求你們條新改成提書面報告對"},{"start":15487.645,"end":15512.976,"text":"對,而且全額補助委員主計長,你這個完全腰斬他的意思啦完全人家是要你全額補助,因為你現在講的公法、贊賭、法戰、奧化、挑釁、4%、3%、4%都從民主中央政府會的,結果地方政府要買單,我請教啊"},{"start":15514.85,"end":15529.144,"text":"來 主計長 你們挑釁地方政府要負擔多少啦地方政府要負擔多少 跟我講朱 朱 朱 朱熹可不可以問一下那個對 他在問好像有跟當事人沒有問當事人也有跟我講所以我們就決定了"},{"start":15534.008,"end":15561.305,"text":"我現在就問你說地方政府有沒有你告訴我地方政府是要出多少錢啊比如說我加10塊錢中央出幾塊地方出幾塊你告訴我啊這個檔案這麼困難嗎提供一下數據中央請客地方買單中央提供多少如果是有差短的有財政收支差短的我們會全額補那如果是他沒有差短的"},{"start":15561.636,"end":15578.829,"text":"就按照財政化財政收支的那個就是按照那個分級嗎按照分級的那個跟那個分級無關是財務狀況他的意思是比較窮的比較有錢的像金門就有錢就你們負擔多一點負擔多少你要講一下負擔多少我把它弄清楚百分之多少地方政府全部的話也要180億"},{"start":15592.317,"end":15602.621,"text":"我們說的是你們要負擔多少錢?那個我們是負擔125億所以中央政府總共全部負擔125億180億裡頭你們買單125億是這樣子嗎?另外55億由地方政府負擔按照各個縣市政府的財政能力比較有錢的就負擔財政收支那個跟財政能力有關"},{"start":15617.706,"end":15632.868,"text":"按照基本財政收支的那個差短的情況去補助差短是指說比如說基本憲政有比較有錢就負擔多一點對,就是說你不要一次講那個金門啦那個我們是說他有財政收支他有差短的我們就會補助"},{"start":15634.189,"end":15662.684,"text":"有欠錢的是有負債的對啦那個跟負債有什麼關係那你再講白話一點那比如說金門縣跟台南市都是第3級嘛那會一樣嗎沒有關係我的意思說他基本財政收入基本財政收入有差的財政狀況補充好像主席補充啦像金門縣政府的財政很好他就出了少啦就這樣講啦用什麼標準有沒有舉債啊還是基本上都沒有出啦也不是分級用什麼標準"},{"start":15663.584,"end":15680.221,"text":"主計長那個差短你給他解釋清楚一下啦你解釋清楚我們都聽不懂你解釋清楚差短啦是什麼意思比如說金門縣跟台南市都第3級不是差短啦是差短啦金門今年沒有差短可是我們本來他要自己負擔我們還是額外的補一半"},{"start":15681.062,"end":15706.224,"text":"所以基本補一半啊比如說臺南市呢也是第三級啊今年有沒有舉例臺南市你補多少嗎?你臺南市補多少嗎?臺南市他在這裡補多少?臺北市補多少?也是一半那你總共補了超過一半欸180補125所以有的縣市他們自己負擔多一點就是有些縣市沒有他如果有差短的就全國補助"},{"start":15708.022,"end":15736.845,"text":"哪些縣市全額補助?舉例哪些縣市全額補助?大部分都一半那哪些縣市全額補助?主席你會後這個已經什麼事實就給大家一份就好了啊不然你說有縣市唸一遍因為他說那個標準我們好像都聽不大懂你有理解嗎?他那個標準大概是因為不是說我們也不是按照分級嘛是按照差短就如果有欠錢的有短處的縣政府"},{"start":15737.485,"end":15765.825,"text":"基本財政因為那個財政收支方法裡面一個統籌分別稅方法裡面有一個基本財政收支差短那個有差短的就是說他基本的財政財比油鹽降速差最基本的不夠我們那個主計長我請教你這個都推敵我這種講話我想這個不分黨派的因為李燕秀委員他的他的主要的訴求重點是"},{"start":15767.416,"end":15794.563,"text":"條型應該給地方政府全額補助因為中央我到現在才發現有這樣的一個事實以前都沒有注意到就變成說花整包結構大部分這個地方政府出很多錢啊地方政府出三分之一啊三分之以上啊三分之一左右啊對不對所以不是要講credit不是全部你們的地方政府也有啊是不是那他的意思就是說能不能夠這一部分中央決定"},{"start":15795.823,"end":15817.378,"text":"全國的軍公教都要挑釁就中央請問我買單他是問你這一點這個是不可能因為那個是地方自治他是地方的公務員員本來就是應該由地方政府來負擔只是說一差短我們才給他那我請問你能不能夠說你說加4%臺灣市政府能不能說我加6%欸那個是主計人員那個是人事的那個規定主計長你剛說那個是地方自治"},{"start":15824.923,"end":15828.605,"text":"主計長你不要這樣說我要講4%你們其他政府都不能加能不能減也不能減有4%結果錢都大家要賭存"},{"start":15843.335,"end":15865.157,"text":"這你們以前不通啊!邏輯不通啊!沒有,我們是根據那個補是根據財政收支就是說調薪的標準是大家全國公務人員同等級的都是怎麼去調那有一定的規定那至於補助是另外的補助辦法那補助辦法我就是一個原則有財政收支差短的我們會補助"},{"start":15868.54,"end":15887.033,"text":"我的意思就是這個credit這個話現在是中央政府理論上就是中央政府全部買單怎麼扯到地方政府我就看不懂我就聽不懂那個是那個人事制度說這個要調薪是全國一致的"},{"start":15898.24,"end":15917.774,"text":"阿如果地方要自己負責地方可以說你調4趴我調5趴我沒錢調3趴也可以我們人事是一條邊啦但是他的意思就是說反正要吃什麼我中央政府點什麼菜我中央政府決定但是要複習要說你們一起來分這樣有道理嗎出去吃飯不是這樣子的"},{"start":15922.413,"end":15924.774,"text":"主計總處應於一個月內將改為原意,後面都不改?"},{"start":15942.304,"end":15945.466,"text":"將地方公教人員調薪後中央補助基礎制度化﹖"},{"start":15963.155,"end":15979.719,"text":"主計總司應於一個月內延役地方公教那個將改為延役來 主計長 主計長我來主席 報告主席我改一下啦好不好 我替你改啦齁 反正好朋友沒有幾天了齁 來 什麼來 一個月內"},{"start":15983.396,"end":16000.493,"text":"主計總處針對後面這裏完全一樣然後呢針對條新當年給予地方政府權益補助提出評估報告這樣比較完整啦提出評估一樣的意思啦其實都是叫你們提報告啦一樣的意思啦"},{"start":16001.788,"end":16029.379,"text":"反正你就是他的意思說只要報告什麼怎麼寫都可以只要提出報告也是弄這樣啦就全額補助他要的中心是全額補助你要整個這個嘛你不能把它戳掉提出報告對他的意思就是說只要寫報告寫多少都沒有關係反正錢不是要從他口袋出對啦對啦主席我插播一下那審計長欠我一個報告那個早上我問你那個要兩個月喔兩個月喔你不要拖到六月底啦吼那太久啦"},{"start":16032.864,"end":16037.025,"text":"兩個月就可以了,你平常就多多少少在看兩個月後就快要超過520好不好兩個月啦你至少要520之前給我嘛這樣可以了吧他跟520沒有關係"},{"start":16058.038,"end":16077.793,"text":"五二零之前給我五二零還是可能繼續啊五二零之後不見了我怎麼辦五二零之前給我主計長是說五二零之後提報告你同意啊現期還在啦但是你還是五二零之前給我啦你這個應該在五二零之前提出來吧要等到五二零之後"},{"start":16081.091,"end":16097.604,"text":"好啦,我們來把他修正的念一下吧,修正這一段,他在修改當中。主計長這應該在520之前提出來吧,還是之後?沒有我說主計長,你們這個就兩個月嘛。反正你就是要寫報告啦,不要給錢。"},{"start":16109.983,"end":16124.616,"text":"好,修改以後再念一下齁,我們請議事委員念一下齁。你要來看一下嗎?這個沒關係啊,來。你看一下,這個不是賣生氣啊,不用擔心。我們沒有人敢騙你,來。"},{"start":16129.121,"end":16134.606,"text":"宣讀協商結論倒數第四行"},{"start":16157.162,"end":16174.993,"text":"後段主計總處因於一個月內就地方公家人員條薪後中央補助機制制度化並針對條薪當年給予地方政府全額補助提出書面評估報告以緩解條薪對地方政府財政之衝擊訓練費"},{"start":16176.618,"end":16197.323,"text":"好沒有異議齁好各位沒異議我們就照協商的結論通過今天會議做如下決定報告及詢問完畢委員質詢及未及答覆或請補充資訊請行政院主計總處、審計部於一周內以書面答覆委員您要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":16198.323,"end":16215.001,"text":"本日會議成績已經進行完畢如有 有嗎 有人用 有沒有輸入那個 沒有輸入執行的喔 那就沒有喔好 如果不在場委員提出輸入執行業務紀錄 刊登公報 請議事您協助處理 好 上會了 休息 兩天一次嘛喔 休息喔 休息"}]}},{"id":"149828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690324ed2e57e85bc34db77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a662d4978bd81395185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:44:24 - 10:54:54","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":630,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:54:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:44:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時44分）謝謝召委，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，主計長，我想今天很多委員都關心所謂的CPI，在你上個禮拜公布的相關報告，2月份CPI的通膨率高達3.08，這個狀況您覺得原因是什麼？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為所謂CPI是2月份跟去年的2月份比較，去年的2月份不是過年期間，今年2月份是過年期間……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以是基期比較的差別？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，基期比較的差別。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是主計長，我們看這個圖，它已經不是基期的比較，從2022年3月以後，核心通膨率只有一次低於2%的通膨警戒值，也就是說你講的去年基期我同意，但是我們基本上CPI是不斷的在上升，而且可能也沒有趨緩的狀況，你同意吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：有沒有趨緩的情況，目前是有在減少的，就是它還在成長，但是沒有漲得那麼快。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有上漲那麼快，但是也沒有往下降。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我必須跟你講，這個是世界各國的趨勢，在一般東洋國家我們只有比……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只要問你，那會不會繼續往上漲？還是2月只是暫時性，接下來會掉下來？"],["朱主計長澤民：CPI一定會上漲，但是它的漲幅已經在下跌。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們要的是緩漲，甚至是趨緩，不太可能往下降，但是不可能這樣子一直往上漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：如果漲的漲幅非常小的話，就可能……"],["黃委員珊珊：薪資沒漲，CPI一直漲，對人民來說就是越來越辛苦。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，CPI如果沒有漲或者是漲得非常少，那個可能是代表通貨緊縮。謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，當然我們希望經濟還是繁榮的。但是一樣，主計長，我們CPI的前兩名其實比較嚴重的是它是食物類還有居住類，食物類當然是因為它跟相關的價格波動會有關係，但是居住看起來是只有往上漲，沒有趨緩的狀況，而且這兩類已經占到國人一半的日常消費，一般的民眾不管是吃東西還是居住，這是他生活上最大最大的痛苦來源。","我現在問的是租金，現在可以看得到租金指數已經連續上漲整整31個月了，主計長也在做相關租金指數的統計，它的增幅、它的狀況其實是一直往上走，從這個看起來連續上漲了31個月，超過兩年半的時間，刷新了歷史紀錄啊！目前政府不是做了很多居住正義，不是很多相關的房屋租金補貼，還有很多很多的……但是這個狀況為什麼會持續上漲，而且沒有任何放緩？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，這個是因為建築成本上升，那個是相對的……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為房屋成本上升，所以租金就繼續上升。"],["朱主計長澤民：維修成本也提高，所以租金指數……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要問的是，主計長，我們做了這麼久的居住正義，我們有讓租金指數至少緩漲嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：租金指數……"],["黃委員珊珊：緩漲就好。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個市場現象我們很難去處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們沒有做過相關政策的評估，怎麼樣去讓這個租金指數可以緩漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們主計總處一般來講只做統計，租金的政策應該是由內政部來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你統計完了要給他們做參考。"],["朱主計長澤民：都有、都有，他們也都有……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，他們要評估說這個指數跟他們推出的政策有沒有直接正相關，還有沒有辦法讓這個政策的效益能夠提高，然後讓租金指數緩漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：事實上執政團隊都希望是這個樣子，可是……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在問您的是您看到的、您做的統計，我們做了這麼多的政策，租金指數有沒有放緩的狀況？有沒有可能會放緩？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有辦法預測，因為我們一般都是事後的統計，要看那個政策的方向而定。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以就是我們有統計，但沒方法，我們只統計，統計完了之後沒有結果……"],["朱主計長澤民：不是，內政部有在想方法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主計長，我希望是您就您的專業，看到我們很多的政策都往這邊走，政府花了這麼多的錢去做居住正義，但是我們的租金指數只有不斷的上漲，而且完全沒有放緩的跡象，我覺得從這個角度裡面可以去給內政部更多的建議。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，租金指數的確有上漲，可是我們也有一些租金補貼的政策。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以我要問的是，我們推動租屋市場健全化的政策有沒有達到房市緩漲的目標？看起來是沒有。第二個，我想問主計長的是，我們有沒有機率看到這些租金指數在2024年之後慢慢趨緩？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，租金市場的多少租金，這必須尊重市場制度，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意嘛！但是我們要做些什麼，而不是只是統計，如果只是統計，那我們就不需要主計總處，內政部自己也可以統計啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，最重要的是每一個租屋的人都有能力去租房子。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在的問題就在於租屋的金額已經達到所謂民眾收入的1/3，這才是為什麼民眾感覺居住正義在臺灣有這麼重要的一個原因。好，接下來再請問，其實主計總處也有做所謂高齡CPI指數調查，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們看到日本做了一個非常有趣的調查，他們是調查各個年齡層的CPI。在降低手機費還有保育免費部分，都可以看得出來對於不同年齡層CPI的特定政策成效，我的意思是我們在CPI統計的時候，是不是可以用年齡層來調查？譬如剛剛講的租金，一般年輕人的租金，跟一般長輩或家庭的租金，其實是可以做不同年齡層的CPI統計，這個可以有一個更細緻的作法。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是我們要努力的。我必須跟委員報告，日本那個所謂年齡層的調查方式，我們是用在那個戶裡面，他如果是全戶……"],["黃委員珊珊：我會建議一個進步的政府應該瞭解各個不同年齡層對於相關物價指數的影響，他們現在面對的困境我們應該要進一步瞭解，這樣我們才可以看得到政策對於他的負擔減輕的狀況，所以做出更細緻的統計，我覺得主計總處可以參考日本的作法，你同意嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個有些是這一種……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望你們能夠往這個方向走啦！這是我覺得……"],["朱主計長澤民：大家共同來努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得這個是我們應該參考的，做各個年齡層的CPI，讓各部會都能夠有更細緻的政策參考。","最後一個問題就是剛剛講的，CPI剛剛說已經達到3點多，可能就像你講的基期，接下來4月份要調漲，電價每漲一成，通膨率會升高0.12%。主計長，現在企業用電成本提高將轉嫁給消費者，其他的也會影響到通膨，所以接下去的電價調漲，你預計會漲多少CPI？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個要看那個……"],["黃委員珊珊：要看那個，要看哪個？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個間接影響它的轉嫁成數。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我就請你告訴我，漲多少的時候會讓物價指數漲多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個漲0.12%是至少啦！至少是0.12%，至於間接的影響，那就……"],["黃委員珊珊：你還沒有辦法算？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為企業……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在電價只要漲一成，我們的CPI就會漲0.12%……"],["朱主計長澤民：至少。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後還不知道多少，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以物價只會調漲，我們買到的相關東西也會調漲。最後就是醫療費用，掛號費開放天花板，讓很多醫療院所可以自由收取掛號費，你覺得會不會引起CPI的調漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，事實上掛號費上漲並不是最近才漲，是去年就已經漲了，所以它的基期已經有了。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經漲了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以已經在裡面，但是現在拿掉天花板，可能還會再漲，會不會影響到人民對於醫療費用的支出又開始增加？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，如果是診所的話，大概它的權數是0.27%。"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！主計長，去年相關單位從來沒有告訴大家電價要漲，而且保證給了台電500億就絕對不會漲，今年突然間開會要漲。同樣的，醫療費用也從來沒有說過要調漲，現在也在漲，你的相關統計只會越來越高，所以我的第一個要求，希望主計總處能夠把CPI的統計更精緻化。第二個，要把相關部門推動政策的成效，呈現在CPI裡面做一個相關的反映。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，去年電價也有漲，不是現在才漲。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是你的統計要有意義，如果你的統計只是丟給他們而沒有意義，那就等於是白統計了！沒有統計，就沒有統治。謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：各部會也要有能力運用我們的統計資料。謝謝。"],["主席：好，休息5分鐘。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：繼續開會。下一位質詢請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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13:21:22","影片長度":"00:14:50","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":890,"end_time":"2024-03-13T13:21:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T13:06:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1250,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時6分）謝謝主席，請鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。根據本席的調查，你是職安署歷任以來最長壽的署長，想必在這麼多來年，在你任內的7年當中有不少的豐功偉業，我想這些功績都可以反映在數字上，因為數字會說話，所以現在就讓我們繼續看下去。首先是檢查人力短缺的問題，請問中央及地方現在沒有填補的正職檢查員還有多少職缺？其中職業安全衛生的缺是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，缺是一直在浮動，不過我們正式編制檢查員在職率大概是8成5到9成上下浮動，職缺大概1成左右。"],["陳委員瑩：你就講成數，沒有具體的統計數字？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，因為這是浮動的。"],["陳委員瑩：你今天下班前，把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室，好不好？"],["鄒署長子廉：我手邊的資料到2月底的缺額是86人。"],["陳委員瑩：只有86人？"],["鄒署長子廉：是，正式的缺有86人。"],["陳委員瑩：這些缺額是中央的比較多？還是地方政府的缺額比較多？"],["鄒署長子廉：都有，以我們目前手邊的資料，臺北市缺額9個，新北市23個……"],["陳委員瑩：哪裡多？"],["鄒署長子廉：新北市23個、桃園12個、臺中16個，我們北區也缺8個。"],["陳委員瑩：我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺比較多？"],["鄒署長子廉：地方比較多。"],["陳委員瑩：據我所知，這些缺額沒有補齊的時間其實已經過了很久，跟去年的今天比較，檢查員的人數是增加還是減少？"],["鄒署長子廉：員額沒有變，人數減少。"],["陳委員瑩：其實我聽到的聲音就是新進的檢查員是不來報到的，或者他實習完就離職轉調，這其實是令人非常擔心的問題，因為衍生了我接下來要提問的問題。我們看一下檢查次量合理分配的問題，有些地方政府檢查單位反映，職安署只會分配讓它們難以負荷的檢查次量，並沒有考慮到它們所承擔的工作壓力，這個問題其實呈現到底合理的檢查次數是多少的問題。署長，以你的經驗，一位檢查員每天合理的檢查廠次是多少？我說的廠次是工廠的廠，合理的廠次是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：應該是2廠次，早上1廠、下午1廠。"],["陳委員瑩：但是廠也有分大小，如果大到像台塑，你叫他一天檢查2個台塑這麼大的廠也是檢查不完的。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員瑩：因為廠次有分大小，我其實也有參考你們的年報，111年對事業單位實施職安衛檢查有17萬1,177場次，看起來量還滿多的，有十七萬多，但是17萬的場次，我剛剛問的是工廠的廠，但是17萬的這個場是一場、兩場的場，你們所謂的場次，其中還包含了起重機、升降機具的座次，三萬三千多的座次，還有鍋爐的6,000座次、壓力容器檢查2萬9,000座次、其他高壓氣體設備座次也是三萬多，這些都是座次，我剛剛把你們年報的統計一下，座次的部分總共有10萬7,189件，減完之後，大概還有7萬的場次，你知道我在講什麼啦！我剛剛把這些換算出來是為了要告訴你們，我先請教你，今年訂定的全年目標是多少廠次？工廠的廠。按照你們的算法還有場次的場，你覺得多少廠次跟多少場次是合理的？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提問，剛剛委員提醒的機械設備、鍋爐、壓力容器是我們代行檢查的量。"],["陳委員瑩：今年設定的全年目標是？"],["鄒署長子廉：我認為我們同仁負荷已經非常重，我們會維持去年的水平，以不要減少為原則。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你人數減少了。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，因為行政院和部長的支持，我們現在讓同仁有風險工作費的支持，希望同仁能夠留任或留才。"],["陳委員瑩：給錢就了事了嗎？加個3,000元、5,000元就好了嗎？因為以現有的檢查員努力工作，你換算下來他可以合理完成職安署所設定的年度目標嗎？可不可以？你說加了那個錢就可以完成這個嗎？我說的是合理的目標，包含有效、有品質的檢查。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，有關合理的工作量，我們再跟各檢查機構做進一步的協商。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你現在不知道嘛！如果照你這樣的回答。"],["鄒署長子廉：各檢查機構每年報勞檢計畫，我們是有計畫量能的。"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣說好了，我們從檢查年報來看，檢查次量逐年增加，重大職災傷亡人數並沒有跟著減少啊！而且今年看起來創新高，會不會是你們分配給縣市政府的負荷量太高了？我的質疑是你把KPI訂這麼高有用嗎？你訂得太高，所有的勞檢員會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎？因為大家為了衝量、衝那個數字，就會變成為鄒署長所訂目標創造一個美麗的數字，在重大職災發生的時候，讓鄒署長可以跟立委報告、跟全國民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少了場次，是你訂的那個場，包含座次，一個量衝很高的場次數據。所以明年檢查的次量是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的人數來做合理的分配？而不是你鄒子廉坐在辦公室裡訂一個盲目的數據，讓大家無止境的一直追求、一直增加，達到你訂的KPI，因為你訂的KPI就有問題嘛！署長怎麼看？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，質量並重是我們的期待，各檢查機構人力確實現在人員流動也是很大的困難，所以委員的提醒和建議，我們會好好來檢討，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我對你們的統計是有很大的質疑，剛剛講工廠有分大小，而且按照剛剛署長的回應，你們現在已經不用早期工廠的廠次來計算，現在比較誇張的是你們用項次，檢核表打一個勾就算一場，我看你們自己統計也是這樣一座就一場啊！你們是這樣統計的！你不知道有這個狀況嗎？你不知道檢核表打個勾就算一場嗎？你知道有這個狀況嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們叫作交叉檢查，檢查員到工地或工廠做一般檢查，如果發現特別危險的東西，我們鼓勵他要做特別危險項目檢查，所以我們有這樣的要求，不要……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有這樣的要求，計算上就要給它算一個廠次……"],["鄒署長子廉：我們會寫清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：大家聽到了，原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來！那我知道了，你們就是堅持要這樣算，那沒關係，你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI，可以啊！因為你一個項目就打個勾。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，不是一個項目，我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際、深入的檢查。"],["陳委員瑩：你鼓勵的結果是怎樣？你這些鼓勵的方式產生的結果是什麼？重大職安死亡人數飆新高啊！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們去年比前年略減一點，當然我們真的不滿意，我們還會再檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：最好是好好檢討，我要請教檢查品質的問題，因為這個很重要，我會加速。署長，新進檢查員還沒有完成1個月學科訓練和60次術科實習，他所做的檢查具有法律效力嗎？你先回答我有沒有。他如果沒有完成，就像一個醫生沒有完成實習，他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，我們勞檢有包括監督、檢查、輔導和宣導……"],["陳委員瑩：你現在先回答我有沒有法律的效力。"],["鄒署長子廉：實際檢查當然要訓練合格才可以。"],["陳委員瑩：所以沒有嘛！如果這個不合格的檢查員造成人民權益損失，有沒有國家賠償的問題？"],["鄒署長子廉：我想要個案來討論。"],["陳委員瑩：所以討論完可能沒有，也可能有，是這樣嗎？因為他已經不合格了，他還可以到這階段？一個不合格的檢查員對廠家作出決定、作出處分，這個有效力嗎？他自己就不合格了，這後續還有什麼討論的問題？你的邏輯也是很奇怪！所以國家賠償，那是你們造成的損失啊！如果在這個高度檢查量要求之下，現在有多少檢查員還沒有完成受訓就去檢查了，你有沒有掌握？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們都會要求檢查機構首長和組長要確定他有合格。"],["陳委員瑩：你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格就去檢查？"],["鄒署長子廉：目前沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：我在這裡呼籲，所有的廠家如果有遇到不合格的勞檢員去檢查的時候，或者造成你們的損失，麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡，來跟我檢舉，好不好？我想事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災，檢查員到底有沒有責任？是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了？這些勞動檢查跟預防職災之間的關聯性到底是什麼？如果它們不是絕對正向的關係，你們每年增加勞檢次量的意義在哪裡？我是丟出這些問題給你啦！針對勞檢的現況、角色跟防災的功能，我希望職安署能夠解決檢查員缺額日益嚴重的問題，因為這個問題已經不是一天兩天了，也不能歸咎於有沒有危險加給，然後就甩鍋給部長去解決，因為缺額衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題，它結果是一個惡性循環，關鍵可能在於職安署長期迷戀於檢查次量認為越多越好，但如果沒有好的品質，事實證明對於職災預防根本就是沒有效的，所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題，讓署長回去好好檢討，要有好的質量，減少職災的發生及減少職災死亡的人數，才是我們真正關心的事情，而不是你去檢查了多少場次，然後還要加權計算。以上，謝謝。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員廖偉翔、林德福、葉元之所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：本院廖委員偉翔，藉本院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議向勞動部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、請勞動部檢討，對當前勞動部促進身心障礙者訓練與就業推動小組按設置要點之規範，除應定期舉辦會議運作外，也應妥適辦理小組業務含會議記錄等事項之揭露，爰請限期於一個月內改善。","二、另有關勞動部職業安全衛生諮詢會之設置，查目前辦理會議運作情形公開之業務亦仍不足，是以請勞動部一併檢討並改善，落實資訊公開，並受外界妥適監督。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","年金改革，蔡英文總統曾說「現在不做，馬上就會後悔」，勞保年改一拖就要8年，媒體報導2028年「勞保」有破產風險，請問勞動部，在520前會提出行政院版勞保年金改革方案嗎？","2023年超徵稅收3,617億，勞動部會爭取多少預算挹注勞保？","問題二","立法院去年12月通過「最低工資法」，因此，2024年是「基本工資」27,470元的最後一年，2025年1月1日將改用「最低工資」，請問勞動部長，最低工資「研究小組」與「最低工資審議會委員」名單何時會確定對外公布？","問題三","外界盛傳四月「電價審議委員會」將宣布「電價調漲」，眾所周知，電價與物價都有高度相關。","「最低工資法」條文明定，「研究小組」應於「每年四月」向「審議會」提出「最低工資」實施對「經濟及就業狀況」之影響報告。請問勞動部長，「最低工資影響報告」會在電價調漲「前」還是電價調漲「後」提出？","問題四","勞工抱怨薪資漲幅跟不上物價上漲！，主計總處公布2月，17項重要民生物資（米、豬肉、雞肉、糖等）平均漲幅3.2%。","如果今年工資一樣維持4%漲幅，本席大膽預測，「最低工資審議委員會」，要到2026第三季才會宣布「最低工資超過3萬元」，2027年1月實施，藉此拉抬民進黨「2026地方選舉」氣勢。","請問勞動部長，您認為何時「最低工資」有機會超過3萬元？"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","有鑑於我國失聯移工頻傳，特此提出質詢。","一、以2022年數據為例，台灣共有72萬8,081位移工，其中計算到2022年2月底共有8萬2,897人失聯，截至2023年年底失聯移工人數累計已達8萬6,523人，一年增加3,626位失聯移工，影響我國就業與安全甚鉅。","二、以鄰國日本為例，產經新聞報導，相同為勞力較為密集之「技能研修」、「特定技能一號」簽證失聯移工人數計算，2021年日本共有172萬人，但失聯人數僅為5,000人，顯見台灣移工失聯數過高。","爰要求勞動部與移民署儘速合作查處及加速遣返流程，避免成為治安與國安缺口。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時21分）","� 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八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好"},{"start":89.141,"end":114.276,"text":"我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16"},{"start":118.069,"end":142.561,"text":"那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少"},{"start":144.859,"end":173.229,"text":"原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題"},{"start":174.289,"end":200.122,"text":"我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長"},{"start":202.603,"end":217.208,"text":"以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場"},{"start":218.226,"end":245.766,"text":"一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊"},{"start":251.172,"end":264.604,"text":"好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共"},{"start":266.826,"end":275.217,"text":"嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多"},{"start":281.886,"end":287.27,"text":"好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次"},{"start":311.165,"end":340.208,"text":"還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢"},{"start":342.11,"end":366.56,"text":"大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場"},{"start":367.981,"end":380.859,"text":"那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的"},{"start":382.652,"end":400.864,"text":"謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則"},{"start":403.1,"end":416.878,"text":"但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎"},{"start":419.642,"end":448.417,"text":"因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答"},{"start":455.422,"end":466.037,"text":"我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊"},{"start":466.758,"end":484.727,"text":"而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員"},{"start":486.895,"end":503.73,"text":"會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長"},{"start":504.411,"end":519.227,"text":"可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以"},{"start":522.799,"end":549.914,"text":"從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛"},{"start":551.594,"end":577.97,"text":"蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那"},{"start":579.071,"end":595.309,"text":"現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢"},{"start":597.813,"end":618.561,"text":"你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求"},{"start":619.441,"end":637.22,"text":"對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI"},{"start":641.305,"end":664.122,"text":"可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討"},{"start":665.183,"end":687.057,"text":"最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎"},{"start":688.564,"end":694.814,"text":"有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習"},{"start":697.025,"end":719.908,"text":"然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論"},{"start":722.496,"end":742.914,"text":"所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題"},{"start":744.98,"end":769.895,"text":"你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好"},{"start":772.509,"end":797.214,"text":"那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了"},{"start":803.424,"end":815.376,"text":"好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡"},{"start":816.857,"end":843.209,"text":"我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決"},{"start":844.309,"end":863.921,"text":"那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的"},{"start":864.281,"end":886.182,"text":"所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部"}]}},{"id":"149826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69033b6a52107e4c9b2f14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b003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- 13:05:39","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":408,"end_time":"2024-03-13T13:05:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:58:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時59分）主席！有請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：吳委員好！"],["吳委員春城：部長好！我今天特別寫「壯世代　有你真好」來感謝你！"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：因為長壽社會來臨，我在民間推動了三年的「壯世代」，感到我們政府極普遍沒有人口學的概念，沒有長遠的人口計畫，感謝部長這一年來注意到這個問題，把壯世代帶進了政府體系，剛才聽到劉建國委員也是出口都是壯世代，顯然是部長帶動的風氣，有看到它的成效。長壽時代來臨，我們經常把這個當作一個衛福的思維，就是一種照顧思維，未來高齡人口會占臺灣人口一半，沒有一個社會能夠用社福思維來照顧一半人口，所以勞動部是一個很重要的解方，是在這種長壽社會當中一個很重要的解方，看部長也是我們所有政府當中第一個有這種覺悟的人，看到了這個問題，因為如果不改變的話，就會變成一場銀髮大海嘯，不僅是高齡者會臥倒，連年青人也沒希望，但事實上如果勞動力處理得好，可以把它轉變成國家發展的動力。看到勞動部推出很多政策，55 plus、對於就業促進、對於就業網合作的獎勵措施，都有看到這一些，這方向都很好。不過現在比較讓我擔心的一點，部長也講了沒有考慮續任，媒體上引用部長的話，部長說未來如果考慮跨業，會善用勞動部的中高齡促進就業資源，比起中高齡，更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼。請問部長，為什麼喜歡這個稱呼？"],["許部長銘春：因為我覺得現在我們45歲以上的人都很健康，在人際、經驗方面都達到一個頂峰，其實還可以發揮，可是往往尤其到55歲以後，好像就自己覺得年紀衰退了，就業上會被歧視。所以我們應該先自我期許，自己要有健康的身心靈來面對，其實我還是很壯的，能夠續留職場或重返職場。"],["吳委員春城：對，部長可以作為壯世代的代言人嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以啊！"],["吳委員春城：因為現在60歲以上的已經600萬人，我們平均退休年齡60.3歲，也就是說龐大的退休人潮，大家都不知何去何從。另外一個很重要的問題，就是扶養比的問題，因為高齡化，所以分子就越來越大；因為少子化，分母就越來越小，有一天就會分子大於分母，就叫崩潰的世代。壯世代很重要的一個做法就是把分子拉下來當分母，也就是分子高齡者壯起來，能夠繼續貢獻，作為一個生產者和消費者，這是唯一的解方。但是現在很關鍵的勞動部中高齡及高齡者就業促進法，這個法裡面有中高齡的定義，指的是45歲到65歲，我不知道這個依據是從哪裡來，45歲就是中高齡嗎？真恐怖耶！因為很多人如果出國唸書回來都快40歲了，工作沒幾年就變中高齡，這太恐怖了吧！所以我不曉得這個法的依據是從哪裡來。而高齡者是65歲，他還一尾活龍，結果我們稱他為高齡者，勞動部這個法的名稱就已經誤導了方向。"],["許部長銘春：這個是過去的想法。"],["吳委員春城：對，所以說過去了，部長是第一個……"],["許部長銘春：當初國際的標準大概是這樣子，但是我覺得現在應該有不同的思維。"],["吳委員春城：不管世界怎麼樣，臺灣都是世界第一、領先，我們應該已經覺得這不適當、不符合事實了，這個法可能要改名壯世代就業促進法。"],["許部長銘春：樂觀其成。"],["吳委員春城：我們可以努力嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["吳委員春城：我剛才從經濟委員會過來，經濟部中小企業獎勵條例就在獎勵這個，它依據的就是你們勞動部的法，你知道嗎？它也是獎勵45歲，我們45歲的勞參率沒有太大問題，真正大的問題大概是55歲以上。"],["許部長銘春：55歲以後。"],["吳委員春城：55歲以後勞參率急速下降，不然你獎勵45歲，所有企業都聘45歲的，不會去聘65歲的啦！但是它的依據就可能來自勞動部的法。所以如果你把它改成壯世代就業促進法，對整個政府各部會應該有很大的啟發作用。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請林德福委員，林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","接下來請吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請羅明才委員，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.72409375,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.672843750000002,"end":42.893468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.419093750000002,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.298468750000005,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.705968750000004,"end":69.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.21409375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.11659375,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.74534375,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.37659375000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.21596875,"end":118.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.08409375000001,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.17909375000002,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.67221875,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.79534375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.36846875,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.06846875000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.30409375000002,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.65409375000002,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.80971875,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.11721875,"end":205.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.92284375000003,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.28971875000002,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.99409375000002,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.12471875,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.28471875000002,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.22971875000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.84034375000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.59534375,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.63659375,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.07534375,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.11284375,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.65159375,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.05221875,"end":335.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.71034375,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.54971875,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.52721875000003,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.59034375000005,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.87909375000004,"end":352.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.70596875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優先保障原住民的就業方案 這個方案本來就應該有的按照比例 那所以已經跟你們勞動部就業安定基金 這個金管會爭取到3.5億的經費 這就是鼓勵補助事業單位的促進原住民的就業計畫的方案"},{"start":270.962,"end":292.588,"text":"那為什麼這個安定基金的委員會會有其他的意見每個委員都是他都是代表他本來就可以表達不同的看法對嘛那既然應該要保障原住民的就業方案的話是應該不會有其他太多的意見吧這個"},{"start":297.335,"end":315.038,"text":"保障原住民的就業跟這個勞保費的負擔的是是兩個問題啦吼因為兩個問題當然沒有錯那不是就他們的就業方案的一個協助我們勞動部一直很積極在所以我所以我真的建議說那個勞保費的負擔當然有些人認為說"},{"start":315.979,"end":344.405,"text":"那是不是要針對特定族群這個可能大家要考慮一下公平性橫平性那也請原民會再加強論述說明這個案當初沒有過但是並沒有說你不能再送所以我是覺得說這個部分可能就是請原民會這邊對於如何來讓原住民的因為這一次是大量的你們有採取大量的移工要增加的問題也就是會衝擊到"},{"start":345.945,"end":346.925,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員接下來請葉元之委員葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"149824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903a95ab7a5cf2707fe14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a687251998cad1e1525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:46:17 - 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不低啊我是希望不低於如果能夠有多的盈餘我們希望能夠多爭取一些對我們財務的穩定是有很大的幫助"},{"start":138.393,"end":166.636,"text":"好那部長我跟你講你的期待可能會落空因為我剛才才在財政委員會去問過那個朱澤民主計長他說現在看起來好像是三千八百億但是呢七折八扣因為包含他要發行公債等等那麼事實上只剩下一千五百億那你也知道經濟部長剛我講他們也是去爭取了一千五百億但是朱澤民主計長的意思說如果"},{"start":167.136,"end":187.323,"text":"打一千五百億全部都補給台電的話那麼明年的預算會非常困難明年的預算就會非常困難編起來因為已經沒有剩餘所以也就是說現在呢大家都看到這個稅收這個稅收超徵的這筆錢可是呢這個餅就是這麼大尤其台電的部分現在他們"},{"start":188.188,"end":214.284,"text":"比較講不好聽獅子大開口啦他們要爭取1500億所以你這300億我覺得有困難好那如果在這樣的狀況之下那麼因為現在有很多立委都要求就是說要提出勞保年金的改革方案來改善或者是延緩我們勞保基金可能破產的這個年限那你有什麼辦法嗎"},{"start":215.7,"end":243.423,"text":"報告委員因為大概幾個面向大概大家可能需要跟這個勞資團體還有這個各界在做一些溝通還有收集他們意見因為撥補這個面向應該我們現在都持續在做了撥補大概是最容易有人給你錢就立刻對持續但是這也是很重要的面向因為所有的改革方案裡面撥補是一定要的而且撥補的金額會連動到其他的"},{"start":244.003,"end":244.023,"text":"蔣麗芸"},{"start":266.864,"end":267.824,"text":"您們會有具體的方案出來嗎?"},{"start":286.778,"end":296.247,"text":"拜託我這個部分我還沒辦法回答您所以我看起來要留待新政府來做了對不對現在你們短期呢只有可能去能夠爭取這個撥補的金額好剩下一點時間我要特別講就是我必須"},{"start":303.554,"end":322.168,"text":"我們要改善少子化但是呢我們現在對其實生小孩的很多的年輕父母事實上是非常辛苦因為我們知道外籍幫傭他要去拿到你們所規定的點數16點非常困難是可以看一下那個請我們部長看一下是"},{"start":322.568,"end":344.805,"text":"如果我們要申請到外籍的幫傭那按照你們的點數我把它算一下有個狀況兩個兩歲以下的子女要配上78歲以上的長者你才有16點那如果你有三個子女在五歲以下比如說兩歲三歲五歲還不夠你還要再加上79歲以上的長者才有16點以上"},{"start":348.187,"end":368.317,"text":"這個太困難了啦所以我覺得我們既然說要改善少子化減輕我們生小孩的負擔另外一方面我們在外籍幫庸卻這麼嚴苛我剛剛講這個狀況是根本很少的家庭可以達到這樣的狀況所以我趕快我具體的在這邊的"},{"start":369.858,"end":379.766,"text":"要求和建議是我希望你們能夠去修正這個標準第一家裡有一名6歲以下輕度或中度的"},{"start":381.159,"end":407.426,"text":"韓病兒就可以申請外籍幫用我真的有很多朋友家裡一個韓病兒非常非常辛苦然後另外家裡面有兩名4歲以下的幼兒已經很辛苦了現在願意生就很好還給你生兩個然後還這樣的密集的生是不是我們也應該給他們一些在我們政策上的支柱政策支柱另外我希望你們這16"},{"start":408.806,"end":408.846,"text":"對不对?"},{"start":435.305,"end":435.325,"text":"好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69032c2c14a07e8b4e56b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a64c8ff0ad0dbab0055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:40:56 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12:46:25","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":329,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:46:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:40:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1472,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時40分）主席，有請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長、陳審計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主計長，剛才我聽到你對張啓楷委員的答詢，很抱歉，本人在去年召開記者會，千拜託、萬拜託南門市場中繼站不要拆掉，留給東門市場作為中繼站，因為1.8億是民脂民膏。你知道行政院當時給我的回答是什麼嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有經管這個部分。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你剛剛一直推給臺北市政府，說是臺北市政府的房子，可是你可知道，臺北市政府……來！看一下公文，簡報上把公文亮出來：臺北市政府要求、請求行政院把華光特二用地作為東門市場改建的安置市場，也就是希望能夠延期租用。臺北市政府有沒有行文行政院？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：但我告訴你就是行文行政院，你知道行政院怎麼回答嗎？他說「不行，因為這塊地要拿去蓋通訊傳播委員會跟數發部的辦公大樓，所以無法同意貴府延長租用。」去年5月是跟我們這樣講的耶！結果你剛剛跟張啓楷委員說這臺北市政府的房子，地是國產署的。我千拜託、萬拜託，希望南門市場改建完成後，東門市場也可以用這塊地，就不用拆掉1.8億的建築物，結果你們行政院跟我講「不行，那塊地我要蓋數發部」！然後，我要求讓東門市場就在這塊所謂數發部準備要用的地、南門市場中繼站旁邊──旁邊喔！就是旁邊的空地另外蓋一座東門市場中繼站。這已經是非常離譜的事情，數發部若有本事，當時就蓋在旁邊工地啦！為什麼今天硬要拆掉1.8億？主計長，我跟你講，這不打緊。審計長，我也拜託你，這件事也請審計部查一下。","這就算了，我上次質詢數發部時，真的差一點要被氣死。我說「為什麼你們一定要拆那1.8億啊？一定要蓋你們數發部辦公室？你這麼偉大？」唐鳳部長竟然跟我講「沒有！我沒有要去那裡」啊！原來全部都是一場誤會啊！主計長，我請問你，你掌管國家主計，審計長主管我們國家審計，你覺得這樣浪費公帑是對的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我會請我們系統的人員去了解。"],["羅委員智強：已經拆了！瓦礫一堆了！真的沒有這樣幹的啦！你是在跟我講去年5月行政院給的公文是騙大家嗎？行政院當時是用這個理由、說要拆掉這處中繼站，1.8億是用這個理由說要拆的耶！難道是騙人的嗎？所以我真的拜託審計長，你有審計政府財政的責任對不對？對於這件事情，真的要好好看看到底發生什麼事情。如果政府是以這種態度花公帑的話，難怪數發部被稱為所謂的「辦公室發展部」啊！不只是租金要花很多、裝潢要花很多，行政院還為了它、拿它做藉口拆掉1.8億的南門市場中繼站。現在東門市場遙遙無期啦！","東門市場在中正區跟大安區交界處，就是我的選區啦！我是代表他們出來開記者會的，但到現在也沒人給個交代啊！對得起東門市場這些現在正在等待搬遷的攤商嗎？你覺得對得起嗎？如果當時不要拆掉，現在東門市場的攤商已經進到裡面，東門市場就可以改建了，你知道嗎？現在卻遙遙無期，不知道什麼時候能蓋出東門市場中繼站、什麼時候搬、什麼時候蓋完、什麼時候再搬回去？浪費公帑，也耽擱了東門市場整個改建程序、過程，還浪費了1.8億公帑，這件事情的離譜跟可惡就在這個地方。今天我在這裡還是要再次拜託主計長跟審計長，回去以後真的督導一下數發部──「辦公室發展部」啦！3,000萬裝潢不夠、幾千萬的租金不夠，搞到要強搶東門市場的用地、民地，最後還跟我講「我沒有要蓋」？怎麼會有這麼離譜的事情！政府怎麼會允許這麼離譜的事情發生？麻煩兩位──主計長和審計長真的多關心一下。以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在處理臨時提案共1案，請議事人員宣讀。","全國軍公教人員薪資分別於107年調升3%及111與113年調升4%，慰勉軍公教人員辛勞及貢獻，引導民間企業共同加薪，固值肯定；惟調薪後對地方政府之財政支出，中央補助之對象及標準比例卻有不同。然而薪資調升當年對地方政府財務衝撃尤其劇烈，且作為地方政府主要稅收來源之房屋稅、地價稅，因近年房地產景氣趨緩而衰退；再者，地方政府負擔國中小教育人員及警消人事費，人事費用亦屬沉重。爰考量近年中央稅收均大幅超收情形，主計總處應於1個月內就地方公教人員調薪後中央補助機制制度化，並針對調薪當年給予地方政府全額補助，以緩解調薪對地方政府財政之衝擊。","提案人：李彥秀　　賴士葆　　王鴻薇　　林德福　　顏寬恒　　羅明才　　陳玉珍"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":319.753,"end":329.323,"text":"好謝謝我們羅委員接著我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前不在林柱英委員林柱英林柱英林柱英"}]}},{"id":"149821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690347ead15b7842f5b4b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a63fcf17fe098d76155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:34:10 - 12:40:47","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":397,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:40:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:34:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1447,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時34分）這個主要權責是在審計，審計部要加油。剛才張委員提的都是審計部的事情，審計部要加油，要提出來。我要請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員，午安。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：午安。建置原住民族族群主流友善公共空間的計畫，原民會提出來，一再被阻擋，第一次、第二次到第三次，減少經費，雖然已經核定了，但是現在要去檢討。計畫的內容非常好，但是像這樣的都市原住民族聚會所本來要蓋10處，因為經費減少，所以只能剩下3處，一個中長程計畫結果只有3處，本來要10處，減少了7處，不得不減少，因為經費減少，不給那麼多，所以只好減少。像營造文化公共空間也是一樣，本來要20處，因為你經費不給那麼多，所以只好減少。好，請說。"],["朱主計長澤民：公建計畫要審核通過以後才會到我們這邊編預算，公建計畫每年有一定的額度。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長，我都問過了。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我跟委員講，很多單位最後都會把責任賴給主計總處，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個計畫是報行政院，行政院交付給國發會來審查，國發會審查的時候，邀請的主要就是主計總處……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦，主計總處只是在裡面可以表示意見而已啦。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第一次提案、第二次提案、第三次提案，後來最重要的都市原住民聚落營造、聚落永續新家園，本來要改善6處，需要的經費都應該要提供，結果後來因為經費沒有給那麼多，只好減少，所以這個部分變成是這樣的情形。"],["朱主計長澤民：我來報告一下，公建計畫是每一年國庫給國發會，國發會在裡面去分配。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是啊，別的部會都給很多，就是原住民族的中長程計畫給得少。"],["朱主計長澤民：計畫的核定不是主計處來決定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們就看預算書好了。113年，也就是今年，預算書只有編列6千萬，非常少，跟我過去在臺灣省政府時針對都會區的中長程計畫比，真的是差太多了。這裡面包含了都市地區的聚會所、祭典場所、永續新家園這些計畫，113年度才6千萬，這麼大的都會區，從基隆一直到高雄的都會區，經費真的是太少太少了，而且很重要的是，一個新的計畫，不該編的編了，該編的沒有編，有的經費已經夠少了，結果你看，委託辦理計畫補助、審查評比作業原則、規劃建置資訊整合系統、宣導及教育訓練編了這麼多經費，然後還有委託辦理媒體政策及業務宣導經費編了那麼多，編了300萬。你想想看，一個新的計畫要蓋一個都市原住民部落聚會所，還沒有蓋就花了這麼多宣導費，該編的不編。這個錢已經夠少了，結果宣導費編那麼多。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會去瞭解執行情況以及為什麼……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是建議主計長，就請原民會把這些費用勻支到相關的其他費用。"],["朱主計長澤民：如果有編，但執行的時候沒有花這麼多，還是要移到其他地方或者是繳庫。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在就要講了，不然就拿去花了，已經拿去宣導了，趕快制止，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不能夠用錢去管他們的政策。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這不是政策，這是預算的執行。"],["朱主計長澤民：如果有浪費，我們當然會來……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然浪費。都還沒有蓋，宣導什麼？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","接著請洪孟楷委員。洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔不在。","請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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國發會招開 這個計畫是報行政院 行政院交付給國發會來審查 國發會審查的時候邀請了主要的 就是主計處沒有啦 我們主計處只是裡面就可以表示意見而已啦"},{"start":153.817,"end":183.083,"text":"整個第一次提案第二次提案第三次提案後來這個相關的這些最重要的都市原住民聚落的營造聚落永續新家園本來要改善六處然後是需要的經費都提供結果後來因為經費沒有給那麼多只好減少了所以這個部分變成是這樣的一個情形"},{"start":193.305,"end":194.125,"text":"我們就看預算書好了"},{"start":213.271,"end":241.034,"text":"一百一十三年今年的預算書只有編列六千萬非常的少跟我在過去在臺灣省政府的時候針對都會期的中長城計畫要比真的是差太多了這裡面你看包含了都市都市地區的紀惠所祭典場所永續新家園的這些計畫"},{"start":242.827,"end":261.578,"text":"一百一十三年度才六千萬這麼大的都會期從基隆一直到高雄的都會期像這樣的一個經費真的是太少太少了而且很重要的我們來看這個一個新的計畫不該編的編了"},{"start":270.993,"end":294.502,"text":"該編的沒有編這個經費已經夠少了結果你看委託辦理計畫補助審查評比作業原則規劃建置資訊整合系統先導及教育訓練多少編了這麼多經費然後還有委託辦理什麼業務先導經費"},{"start":298.069,"end":323.604,"text":"什麼媒體政策及業務先導經費變了那麼多千萬、十萬、三百萬你想想看一個新的計畫我要蓋個部落機會所還沒有蓋啊我要蓋一個都市原住民的機會所還沒有蓋啊就花了這麼多的先導費該編的不編"},{"start":330.255,"end":349.087,"text":"現在這錢已經夠少了結果還先導費變那麼多所以這個部分這個我們會去了解因為他的執行情況以及說他的那個為什麼我是建議了主計長你就請嚴明會把這些費用"},{"start":353.66,"end":367.238,"text":"對﹖如果他有這邊﹖他執行的時候沒有花這麼多﹖他還是要移到其他地方去﹖或者是腳褲﹖已經拿去先倒了﹖趕快制止好不好﹖"},{"start":368.166,"end":368.226,"text":"羅智強委員"}]}},{"id":"149820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149820","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903588f12c00bc2fcb614b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a64d80454cee631a6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:25:51 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職長薩爾普遍認為勞動還是要一個完整的勞動工時有沒有關係?"},{"start":501.01,"end":515.457,"text":"這個我是覺得針對不同的好像這些世代應該有可能不同的勞動工時。 我現在針對高齡者跟高齡者。 高齡者他可能要有彈性的工時。 對嘛。 你覺得你覺得現在的這樣的我們的這些環境對高齡者"},{"start":516.377,"end":536.799,"text":"有達到友善有達到彈性這部分還要在很大的努力空間部長有回答問題了因為我覺得現在齁你看要讓65歲的這些高齡者因為體育上本身就有一些障礙了嘛對不對齁然後他還要課很多問題除此之外讓高齡者要有一個完整的8個工作"},{"start":537.8,"end":550.07,"text":"的這個時間來從事他的退休之後的就業的一個環境這既不友善也不健康所以他的勞參率當然就很低我是要從這部分跟部長來做一個討論那你看喔"},{"start":553.516,"end":556.137,"text":"五千人等於三年成長百分之三百然後人力營養更發現外送人大多數來自這個製造業的基層跟餐飲業這個是一個板塊的很大很大的很快的速度在"},{"start":576.385,"end":599.672,"text":"在做一個轉移嘛對不對這是這是你們的資料然後這個WTW2023的組織跟人才的關鍵報告中指出歷史代齁人才最關鍵的因素他不再是薪水而是職矮的發展機會他們相當在意公司是我提供彈性工時及和員工福利以及這個成功做內容找到這個使命感"},{"start":601.2,"end":622.391,"text":"這個是你們的資料支撐會在去年7到9月實行彈性工時的實驗一共有105位的同仁參加參加的員工一個月內要滿足168的總工時但不拘束員工的上下班時間和工作定點實驗的結果證實工作的產出跟表現並沒有變得不好"},{"start":623.251,"end":625.993,"text":"對中高齡及高齡者的就業環境應該要有所來做這個因應才對嘛我是要很"},{"start":641.601,"end":664.907,"text":"很誠懇的提醒部長這事情齁那你們自己也有結合相關部會嘛齁在偏鄉推動這個婦女再就業計畫然後什麼婦女什麼兼顧家庭勞動部提供僱主公使調整獎勵還有公使調整獎勵嘛齁然後針對僱主提供有照顧家庭需求的婦女比較彈性公使調整其中就有舉出這個系統貴供應商的成功案例"},{"start":665.779,"end":694.711,"text":"然後李肅岳哲也併顧鍾高齡也提出了相對的這個彈性的工時多半是這個彈性工時的班表這個你們又有在做啊但是好像那個量能好像那個速度緩不濟急沒有辦法追過人口老化沒有辦法追過這些想要在給高齡者要從事這個就業的環境裡面提高他們的意願這個我覺得很大大的討論空間"},{"start":696.124,"end":721.476,"text":"我是覺得雇主可能觀念的改變非常重要因為面對這個勞動力的短缺大家可能對於這個勞動力的來源要更能夠接受這些壯世代或者二度就業婦女這些所以剛剛您委員講的一些話坦白講我心裡有戚戚焉政府應該扮演更強大的這樣的一個力道不然我們這個法律法律你部長記得什麼時候通過的嗎"},{"start":725.818,"end":748.355,"text":"201919吧20191080嘛對不對但是我們上路好像2020齁沒有啊108啦應該是108公告的啦108公告啊109才上路因為疫情OK嘛09 110 11 12 13第5年可以大大來討論了嘛當然要檢討了嘛快速來盤整嘛好不好那我們這個高齡者的勞動率可以提高嘛那這個板塊移動到底是因為你們的政策"},{"start":748.895,"end":749.235,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員"}]}},{"id":"149819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903bd43340846c5079214b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6a1161ff5f2c303155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:19:08 - 12:25:38","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":390,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:25:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:19:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了！今天一樣要聊一下有關於移工的議題，因為桃園本身是移工非常大的一個居住環境，移工管理的品質會影響到桃園市民的生活品質，所以今天針對幾個題目來就教勞動部部長。","第一個，當然大家，包含我們在做這個政策的研究調查的時候，其實發現我們大部分的研究焦點還是放在移工為什麼會失聯，然後把失聯移工變成一個政策重點。當然啦！我覺得我們不要頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，現在的狀況是這樣，因為失聯移工的數量實在太多了，本席是內政委員會委員，移民署常常來訴苦說專勤隊人力500人，失聯移工的數量有八萬多人，而且還有再繼續增加的可能性，如果我們不從問題的根源去下手，恐怕這問題永遠解決不完，不論是檢舉也好或抓人也好，大概也抓不完。移工問題的三大原因，其實監察院也有提相關的報告，第一個問題大概就是待遇不佳，所以可能走投無路；第二個叫作彈性不足，也就是自由轉換工作有關的一些配套，其實還不是那麼的完善；第三個是財務壓力，當然來自於很多鋌而走險或者是無良仲介，他們當初在引入的時候，就對移工本人收取高額仲介費，以至於他們在來台之前就揹了大量的債務。在這幾個綜合因素下面，就變成亡命之徒，因為走投無路，無法按照正常的法規流程去做正常的工作，待遇不好又沒有辦法趕得上，有些甚至是放高利貸，這樣的一個狀況，那就鋌而走險了！監察院的報告也講了，你在失聯的狀況之下，賺的搞不好比合法的還多。針對這三件事情，本席希望勞動部要持續的提出解決方案，要把這三個問題解決完以後，才有辦法壓制住失聯移工的數量。請問勞動部現在對這三個問題有沒有什麼精進的作為？簡單回答一下，因為我們還有後面的題目。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實在產業移工部分，他進來一定是適用基本工資，這個沒有問題；主要是家庭看護工這個部分，他其實不適用勞基法，因為包括我們本國家事工也一樣不適用；但是在前年，本來是1萬7，我們提高到2萬，未來針對這些待遇的問題，我們會滾動的檢討。基本上，經濟因素也是很重要的一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：從那個進步的價值來講，當然慢慢要一致，要有非歧視的待遇；本席也明白這個茲事體大，跟我們國家的經濟相關……"],["許部長銘春：因為使用家庭看護工都是比較弱勢的家庭，這個會牽涉到很多……"],["牛委員煦庭：也有弱勢家庭的問題，我同意；所以本席希望多放一點重點在解決他們本人的財務壓力上，也就是針對仲介部分，你要做定時的查核跟查緝，去了解到底有沒有哪些人在做這樣的事情，有沒有壓榨的狀況。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，國內是不容許的，我們也有嚴格在查，如果有這種情事，我們會重罰，甚至撤照，也就是用很嚴厲的手段……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限，有關於仲介的管理，你如何去避免這種債務壓力，然後逼得移工走投無路的狀況發生，是不是會後提供書面報告給本席，也提供給衛環委員會的委員，讓他們做問政的參考？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是第一個部分。第二個，本席今天更重要的一點是沒有失聯的移工，我不要講管理，講管理好像有點上對下，這個說法不太好，也不太尊重，應該要輔導！因為現在我們了解的狀況，大概手續辦完之後，經濟部希望繼續產業發展，多開放，勞動部就配合辦理等等；進來之後，如果遇到問題丟給移民署查緝，問題是沒有失聯的移工，如果沒有長期的對話，沒有長期去關注他們的狀況，沒有進行一定的輔導措施，其實也會造成若干社會問題。我舉幾個簡單的例子，比如他們不知道10點以後不能在公園唱卡拉OK，比如他們不知道微型電動二輪車不能亂停，這不是歧視的意思，可能在他的國家沒有相關的法源，可是在台灣的環境裡面，這個是不被台灣的社區所接受的，所以這種介面的融入，如果沒有長時間的追蹤，沒有定期去做宣導，或是協助他們融入，即便是沒有失聯的移工，也會有沒辦法融入的問題，也會讓成本外溢化。","其次，從他們人權的角度來看，部長應該清楚，我們就打開天窗說亮話，有沒有雇主弄進來之後，然後一大堆移工住在一個鐵皮屋裡面，應該有吧，對不對？這其實是滿不人道的待遇。為了打拼、討生活，他們可能可以接受，可是終究來講，不是一個進步的作為嘛！凡此種種，都是他來到台灣工作之後，才開始發生、衍生出這一堆問題，難道我們的政府不應該有一定的角色嗎？部長，現在針對沒有失聯的移工，我們定期的輔導機制是什麼？我們有沒有要求台灣的雇主在享受相對低廉的人力成本時，有負擔更多輔導的責任跟義務，有沒有這樣的一些說法？請簡單說明一下。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，像各地方政府都有訪查員，剛入國進來的移工，我們一定會去了解他整個生活狀況，然後雇主在移工的管理上也要善盡他的責任，對於這個部分，我們都有相關的規定去要求；如果沒有做到，也有相關的一些處罰。然後包括移工的權益，包括要了解本國的法令，或是他本身的權益問題，我們都有透過多元的管道，包括他們多餘的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我從那個報告裡面看到，當初就講了一站式服務，也就是入境的時候，會把這些處理完。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是我恰恰覺得這是有問題的，因為它不應該是一站式服務，不應該一次處理完，應該是定期的訪視、定期的了解狀況，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：那個只是進來的時候……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間到了，我也不要耽誤會議時間，針對雇主在這部分輔導管理的一些責任，還有仲介業者也許在裡面也要擔負一定的社會責任，對不對？有沒有給產業一定的管理準則或者是義務……"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：對於這些部分，我也要求你們會後彙整資料，我們來長期追蹤，可以嗎？我們一起來解決這個問題，讓移工可以好好的融入台灣社會，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。我們中午不休息，大家可以用餐；如果想要上廁所也可以直接去上。我們中午就不休息，這樣可以嗎，部長？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["主席：好，接下來請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.105968750000001,"end":8.215343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.531593750000003,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.48346875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.20534375000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.69971875,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.43784375000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.74159375,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.10284375,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.58221875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.28346875,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.41784375,"end":171.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.56096875,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.47221875000002,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.99909375000001,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":179.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.32721875000001,"end":183.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.98096875000002,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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12:34:01","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:34:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:18:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1355,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時18分）主席，請主計長和審計長。"],["主席：請主計長和審計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長跟審計長好。今天很高興，看到這麼多資深的審計人員跟主計人員，要跟你們致敬，你們為人民看緊荷包，對國家的貢獻是很大的。啓楷今天要先給大家看一個畫面，這個畫面，我相信有很多資深的主計跟審計人員的印象應該很深刻，就是三十年前，同樣在這個地方，在財政委員會，那時的審計長叫做蘇振平，當過財政部長的立法委員王建煊質詢蘇振平時說，有部分機關以遠超過市價的價格去承租辦公室，浪費了民脂民膏。當時的審計長蘇振平很有風骨，他說他已經開始注意這個問題了，已經把最近幾年高價承租的單位列為清查重點，王建煊問他要多久才可以處理好，蘇振平說這件事情半年做不好就切腹自殺，媒體的評價說他是一個有風骨的審計長，我很期待我今天要質詢的主計長跟審計長一樣是有風骨的，好不好？我們肯定主計人員跟審計人員的貢獻，所以我今天把大家懷念的這個畫面調出來給大家看，可是呢？關於數位發展部，我先問一件事情，它為什麼一定要在市中心？租金為什麼一年半要花掉7,000萬？更離譜的是，為什麼裝潢費就用掉3,000萬？主計長，你當初為什麼會批准這筆預算？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個租金是整筆的，它到底要花多少在上面，我不能夠說……因為它有去找國有財產署，希望國有財產署幫忙找，結果都沒有適當的空間。"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，主計長，我打岔你的話，你剛才說它一定要在市中心，大家看一下唐鳳怎麼說，他說：「我在哪裡上班，我在哪裡都沒關係。」數位部為什麼一定要在市中心？要在蛋黃區？他說他直接拿筆點下去就可以批改了，指紋按上去就可以簽公文了，他特別說：「我在哪裡上班都不是很重要。」主計長，行政院對於所有的部會、所有的機關在外面租辦公室，是有要點、有明確規範的。數位部現在分兩個部分，在新光大樓的辦公室有354個人，對不對？才354個人，為什麼一定要在市中心？為什麼354個人在一年半要用到7,000萬？這不是民脂民膏嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，這個是過渡時期，行政院曾經在今年1月的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你是老實人，我請問一下，你能不能從今天回去檢討，這筆錢不要再編了？我再問你更重要的事情，好不好？它為什麼用掉3,000萬的裝潢費用？今天最新的新聞是，立法院院長韓國瑜把總務處長換掉了，為什麼？一個立法委員辦公室的裝潢費用30萬，數位部一個辦公室用掉3,000萬的裝潢費用，而且還是半個而已，他有兩個地方，對不對？一個新光大樓的辦公室用掉3,000萬，跟我們115個立法委員全部的裝潢費用差不多，主計長，我們兩個和審計長找時間去看看是不是鑲金的。第二個，這個有沒有責任？當初招標、決標的公文、契約，在一個禮拜內送到本席辦公室，可不可以？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個可能要跟數位發展部調，我不能調……"],["張委員啓楷：他花你的錢，花國家的錢，為什麼我要問你？我當然是對你啊。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不能調，我沒有那個權力。"],["張委員啓楷：你的錢被花掉了，這個責任是在你，我現在要追一個責任，第一個，當初主計單位裡面是誰批准了這7千萬？這是一個責任，對不對？誰把這3,000萬給他？主計處都沒有責任？沒有責任嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。數位部有他們的主計人員，有他們的業務需求……"],["張委員啓楷：那不是你管的，你是一條鞭耶！","不好意思，我請問審計長，你應該也是有風骨的審計長，老實講，這段時間我們看你們的決算報告，都覺得寫得不錯。可以嗎？審計部，可以這樣花錢嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們今年會查。"],["張委員啓楷：今年會查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你請在數位部的主計人員把當初裝潢費用怎麼決標的、怎麼招標的公文在一個禮拜內送到我辦公室，可以的話，我們三個人一起去數位部看，來開箱，數位部是鑲金塊的嗎？是不是？為什麼用3,000萬的裝修費用？裝潢費用為什麼那麼貴？"],["朱主計長澤民：可以請他們說明，但是去調查他們是不是要透過立法院，詳細情形我不曉得……"],["張委員啓楷：本席要求還不行嗎？你要什麼程序？"],["主席：我們等一下做一個……"],["張委員啓楷：立委的權限不能調這個資料嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：要院會通過才行。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，玉珍啊，本席要這個資料有過分嗎？這是不是立委明定的權限？"],["主席：政府資訊公開是應該的。這個也沒有弊端的話，何懼之有？看多久提供。"],["朱主計長澤民：要去調閱的話，是不是有一定的法律程序？"],["主席：招標資訊這些都很公開啊。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，我去質詢所有的單位，第一次遇到你這樣說你沒有權限，不能把這個資料送來的，你是第一個。"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說不能送來，因為我不是……"],["張委員啓楷：這不是立委明定的權限嗎？而且幫人民看緊荷包，不是只有我，還有你，那麼多的審計人員、主計人員在這裡……"],["朱主計長澤民：是各部會的權責。您可以要求數位部……"],["張委員啓楷：我當然會去跟數位部要，可是我對著你嘛，你管錢的啊，你叫你的主計人員去。數位部有你的主計人員在那裡嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然有啊。"],["張委員啓楷：有，你去跟他拿啊。"],["朱主計長澤民：這個能不能這樣子，我必須……"],["張委員啓楷：你不知道？以前所有立法委員要跟你拿資料，你會說可能有弊端、可能浪費了，你都這樣回答嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是這樣子，委員如果有必要的話，可以請求他們提供。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我就是有必要，不是請求他們，是請求你。"],["主席：主計長，你們是一條鞭的，有派人在數位發展部裡頭嘛？那你們主計的人當初應該也會提出相關意見，如果沒有，是不是也有相關的責任？這也是張委員要追究的，所以你們如果覺得沒有問題，就提供資料，這沒有涉及到什麼政府資訊公開或招標的。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我要去看法律的程序到底怎麼走。謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你到底有什麼為難的地方？立法委員依職權跟你要東西，你怎麼可以這樣答？你這不是藐視國會嗎？不是藐視我一個立法委員，是藐視國會，哪位同仁可以跟主計長講？"],["朱主計長澤民：可以請數位部說明，但調帳是不可以的。"],["主席：招標不是公開的嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：這個招標的公開文件為什麼不行？他要裝潢，是不是要去你那邊說明招標的過程，說明為什麼拿多少錢？招標、決標都是公開的啊！"],["主席：這個應該都有公開資訊，你們統整一下，送給張委員。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你要怎麼知道他的錢花去哪裡？"],["黃處長叔娟：跟張委員說明一下，依照預算法，我們是針對預算執行情形，可以請他說明。至於委員你提到的是涉及到合約的部分，合約的部分就要由數位部來提供。"],["張委員啓楷：你很專業，就是要提供說明，你如果叫他來，要說明什麼？當然是合約書和招標、決標的公文，不然他要說什麼？他跟你講什麼？當然是帶這兩個最關鍵的文件啊。"],["主席：你們就請數位發展部的主計單位提供給你們總處，總處再送來立法院就好了。"],["張委員啓楷：你叫他來說明，然後你就叫他把我剛剛講的這個東西拿來，包含招標、決標的合約書。"],["朱主計長澤民：招標、決標的合約書可以不可以叫他們拿來，這個我必須……"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，這有什麼秘密？","審計長，這個有秘密嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：關於招標、決標，有一個網站上……"],["主席：對啊。合約書也是都上網公告的。"],["張委員啓楷：可能網上都已經有了，你都還不給我，你是在……"],["主席：請主計總處整理出來就好了。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？好啦，主計長，一個禮拜啦。"],["朱主計長澤民：我把網站上的資料拿來。"],["張委員啓楷：不只網站，網站看了以後，裡面還有東西。"],["朱主計長澤民：如果叫他把帳拿出來，我必須研究……"],["張委員啓楷：你如果給我的東西不夠齊全，我們再來一起討論，好不好？好，一個禮拜內把你認為可以給我的資料，包含我剛剛要求的公開招標的文件、決標的文件和合約書送過來，好不好？","另外，我還要問你一個也是很扯的事情，比扯鈴還扯，你看看，我剛剛講的這個，有沒有行政責任的問題？這個問題牽扯到行政院，搞不好都要糾正，要彈劾。數位部本來要去什麼地方？要去南門市場的中繼站，臺北市政府幫忙租地，蓋了一間美侖美奐的辦公室，花了1億8,000萬，結果數位部要那個地方，那麼好的地方，花1億8,000萬，四年就拆掉，這有沒有浪費民脂民膏？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個中繼市場，如果我沒記錯，是臺北市政府的。"],["張委員啓楷：是臺北市政府蓋的，但是是國家的土地啊。我先告訴你，你做這個決策，蓋好四年就拆掉，已經很離譜了，我相信一般人民看了都心疼，更離譜的是數位部，大家都看到房子被拆掉了，這個本來可以繼續用的，南門市場搬出去之後，臺北市政府認為東門市場要用，結果數位部說他們要在這個地方蓋大樓，現在說不要，比扯鈴還扯。"],["朱主計長澤民：我所瞭解的是，唐部長跟我講過，給他什麼地方的房子他就去住，國有財產署給他什麼地方，他就去住，他沒有說要或不要，他有跟我講，而是國有財產署給他什麼地方，他就去住。現在是國有財產署拿不出來。"],["張委員啓楷：所以他還是可能去，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有說不准去，那個地方……"],["張委員啓楷：他現在說沒有要去，你們連要讓他去的地方都找出來了。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個地方將來又要做其他的用途，他去了以後又要再搬，所以會增加更多的裝潢費。詳細的細節，我不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，現在有兩個問題，第一個，為什麼一間耗資一億八的房子蓋好四年就要拆掉？對得起人民嗎？這是第一點。第二個，為了數位部跟NCC要去，那邊已經拆了，你去那邊看，已經夷為平地了，已經拆了，他現在說不去！"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才講，那個房子是臺北市政府的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，臺北市政府的錢也是人民的錢，是人民的納稅錢。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們尊重地方自治，唐部長是跟我講，政府要他去哪裡，他就去哪裡。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，我先請教你，我們從人民的角度去看，第一個，一億八不應該花下去蓋好四年就拆掉，這是第一個。第二個，你站在主計長的立場，幫人民看緊荷包，你收他的租金，對不對？他現在不去，房子已經拆了，你的租金也沒有了，臺北市政府本來要給你錢，也沒有了，對你是損失，對我們國家也是損失。那我要問，那個租金沒有了，那個錢要找誰要？這件事情本來很好解決，南門市場搬出去以後，東門市場要那個地方，你現在拆了，租金也不要。"],["朱主計長澤民：可能要問國有財產署，我不能夠因為有某一個步驟，就全盤……"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，你平常是很有擔當的人，你今天回答，一下子說是數位部的事情，一下子說是國有財產署的事情。你是有擔當的人。"],["朱主計長澤民：我只管錢有沒有適當……"],["張委員啓楷：你是我優秀的嘉中學長，你評價是高的，你為什麼今天都推給別的單位？"],["主席：張委員，我看這樣子，第一個，主計總處提供……"],["張委員啓楷：我做個ending，今天審計長剛好在，有風骨的審計長，這個案子查清楚，好不好？這個案子送去監察院，不只是糾正案，搞不好有好幾個人要被彈劾。審計長，你可以很清楚地表達這個案子會查清楚嗎？除了我剛才說的租金以外。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員關心，就是我們的事情，我們會就這個案子來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好。主計長、審計長，當著這麼多優秀的主計人員跟審計人員的面，我一開始都放了那麼多令人懷念的畫面，這段時間主計人員和審計人員那麼辛苦，對國家有貢獻嘛，要看緊人民的荷包。你大部分的地方有守住了，可是為什麼數位發展部這樣？一個辦公室要怎麼租，行政院的要點是清清楚楚的，342個人可以租多大的辦公室，每一個人的空間多大，這都是有要點規範的。我們回歸法律面，幫人民看緊荷包。"],["朱主計長澤民：主計總處有權力去調的，我們都會去調。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你去調。"],["主席：一個禮拜內提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：早點調好，早點拿給我。學長，早點調好，早日拿給我。"],["朱主計長澤民：三個都是嘉中的啦。"],["張委員啓楷：好。謝謝。希望我們都是嘉中之光，幫人民看緊荷包。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接著請蔡易餘委員。蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘不在。","請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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當初主計單位裡面是誰"},{"start":306.496,"end":327.286,"text":"把這個批准的7千萬這是一個責任對不對?誰把這個3千萬給他了?主計處都沒有責任?沒有責任嗎?對,他有他們的主計人員,他有他們的業務選擇那不是你管欸,你派到主計,你是一條鞭欸來來,抱歉抱歉,我今天時間我請問什麼選舉對不起"},{"start":330.014,"end":347.518,"text":"你應該是有豐古的審計長啦老蔣你這段時間我們看你的結算報告都老蔣寫得不錯可以嗎?審計部可以這樣發錢嗎?我們今年會查今年會查今年會查齁然後 主計長"},{"start":348.666,"end":362.103,"text":"你請你的在世衛部的主計人員把他的當初這個裝潢費用怎麼結標的、怎麼招標的公文一頁來上來幫我審。可以的話我們三個人一起去世衛部來看他開箱。世衛部是空經過的是不是?為什麼要用3000萬的這個裝修費用?"},{"start":364.826,"end":376.395,"text":"可以請他們說明但是去調查他們的那個是不是要立法院我詳細前線不曉得本席要求還不行嗎?你要什麼程序?立委的前線不能調這個資料嗎?朱先生"},{"start":385.083,"end":412.622,"text":"本席要這個資料過分嗎政府資訊公開是應該的這個也沒有弊端的話何懼之有看多久提供招標資訊這些都很公開啊主計長我去執行所有的單位你第一次回到說你沒有前線不能把這個資料送來你是第一個欸我沒有時候不能送來因為我不是這不是立委明定的前線嗎而且幫人民勘檢荷包不是只有我 是你"},{"start":413.863,"end":416.326,"text":"那麼多的審計人員、主計人員在這裡?我當然會去跟數位部要可是我對著你嘛你關錢的啊"},{"start":427.978,"end":449.197,"text":"我不能...你叫你的主計人員...欸!市委部有你的審計人員在嗎?有你的主計人員在嗎?當然有啊!有啊!你去拿啊!我...我...這個能不能這樣子...我必須...你不知道啊!以前所有的立法委員跟你說要跟你拿資料可能有弊端可能浪費的你都這樣回答嗎?不是這樣子啦就是說..."},{"start":450.526,"end":475.252,"text":"委員如果有必要的話可以請求他們提供好我就是有必要不是請求他們請求你這個主計長你們有派人在這個一條邊嘛齁有在數位發展部裡頭嘛那你們主計的人如果當初應該也會提出相關意見如果沒有是不是有相關責任這也是我們張委員下去要追究的所以你們如果覺得沒有問題就提供資料這沒什麼政府資訊公開又是沒有我要去看法律的程序到底怎麼走謝謝"},{"start":477.17,"end":495.283,"text":"朱國林你到底有什麼危難的地方?你現在你現在完全違反整立法院的職權要跟你要東西你怎麼可以這樣打?你這不是藐視國會嗎?不是藐視我一個立法院喔?是不是藐視國會?哪位同仁可以跟主席長講?"},{"start":502.912,"end":516.164,"text":"可以請那個數位說明但是調帳是不可以的來說明招標不是公開的嗎你這個招標的公開文件為什麼不行啊總統他他要上去你說他的招標的過程怎麼拿多少錢招標、絕標"},{"start":525.984,"end":527.647,"text":"這個應該都有公開資訊阿齁你們統整一下送給張委員阿政府的工廠勒"},{"start":542.223,"end":564.704,"text":"是跟專委員說明一下喔因為依照我們預算法的部分我們是針對他的預算執行情形可以來請他這個地方來提供這個說明預算執行情形至於委員你提到的是涉及到合約的這個部分那合約的部分交由數位部他來提供說明你如果叫他來要說明什麼當然是合約書招標決標的問題他要說什麼"},{"start":568.127,"end":593.532,"text":"主計處就請他跟你講什麼當然是帶這兩個最關鍵的文件啊你們就請社會發展部的主計單位提供給你們總這個總處這裡總處再送來立法院就好了嗎然後你就叫他把我剛講的這個東西招標絕標的合約書招標絕標的合約書可以不可以那個那個跟他們拿來這個我必須祝賀定武祝賀定武接吾山必拚那個審計長審計長接吾山必拚"},{"start":597.311,"end":620.529,"text":"這個有秘密嗎?這招標、結標阿大概在那個網站上阿對阿有一個網站上可能網站都已經有了你都還不給我請主計總處整理出來就好了好不好?好啦主計長一個禮拜啦一禮拜我把網站上的資料拿不只網站啦網站看了以後裡面還有東西啦"},{"start":622.55,"end":646.176,"text":"你如果給我東西不夠齊全我們再來一起討論好不好好一個禮拜內一個禮拜內把你認為可以給我的資料我剛要求的公開招標的文件結標的文件還有合約書上個案好不好另外問一個也是很扯的事情比扯零還扯的看看勒剛講的這個有沒有行政責任的問題這是不是牽扯到行政院搞不好都要糾正要談的問題"},{"start":649.289,"end":666.451,"text":"市委部本來要去什麼地方?要去南門市場的中繼站。代表省政府幫你租地。幫你租地。蓋了一個大家看那個畫面,美輪美奐。有八千萬的錢。結果你叫市委部要那個地方?"},{"start":668.206,"end":690.791,"text":"那麼好的地方還被懲罰四年就把它拆掉這有沒有讓慧敏指名高這個中具市長如果我沒記錯是臺北市政府的他去的啊你的土地啊那個國家的土地啊你做這個決策四年拆掉已經很離譜了我相信一般人民看了都心疼啦更離譜的你社會不公上"},{"start":692.022,"end":711.305,"text":"﹗"},{"start":713.032,"end":727.081,"text":"我所了解的是那個唐部長跟我講過他給他什麼地方的房子他就去住所以國有財產署給他什麼地方就去住現在因為他沒有"},{"start":729.036,"end":742.025,"text":"他沒有說是要或不要他有跟我講是國有財產署給他什麼地方房子他就去住所以他還是可能要去是不是沒有說不准去那一個地方將來又要做其他的一個用途他去了又要再搬"},{"start":750.551,"end":765.141,"text":"登加更多的裝潢會 為什麼一個1億8的房子4年要拆掉對得起人民嗎這是第一個點第二個為了你數位部跟NCC要去已經拆了"},{"start":766.192,"end":794.615,"text":"你去那邊已經一圍平地了喔已經拆了你現在說不想去對我就跟他講那個房子是臺北市政府的對啊臺北市政府也是人民的錢啊人民納稅錢臺北市政府我們尊重那個地方自治堂部長是跟我講政府要他去哪裡他就去哪裡朱國立我先請教你啦我們從人民的角度去看第一個一億八不應該花下去四年被拆掉這是第一個第二你站在主計長的"},{"start":796.096,"end":813.494,"text":"幫人民勘請荷包你是收的租金欸對不對你現在要蓋不蓋 已經跳映了啦 你租金也沒有這樣每次政府本來要給你錢 你也沒有這樣你不是對你也是損失啊 對我們國家也是損失啊你為什麼那個租金 那我要問啊 那個租金沒有那個錢要找誰要"},{"start":816.048,"end":821.472,"text":"你平常是很有擔當的人,你今天在回答事情都是一些社會部的事情你是有擔當的人的,你是我優秀的家中學長,你評價是高的,你現在都收到百位了"},{"start":844.502,"end":872.7,"text":"那個章委員齁我看這樣子齁第一個這個主計總處這邊麻煩提供我們做個ending好不好你幫等一下等一下做個Ending今天審計長剛好在有風骨的審計長這個案子跟剛剛一樣查清楚好不好這個幾次台我講這個案上去上去檢查你不只是糾正案我講搞不好有好幾個人要被彈劾那個主計長你可以很清楚的表達這個案子你會查清楚"},{"start":873.643,"end":888.865,"text":"審計長審計長審計長審計長"},{"start":889.67,"end":893.151,"text":"對國家有貢言嗎?看見人民而報嗎?你大部分的地方有守住了可是為什麼一個數位發展部"},{"start":908.559,"end":929.157,"text":"你一個辦公室你要怎麼租 要點是清清楚楚的三萬四十二個人可以租大大辦公室每一個人空間多大 這都是有要點的喔 有法規法律面幫人民看緊荷包主計總是有權利去調整我們都會去調整學長 比較早調好 稍後拿給我"},{"start":934.108,"end":947.345,"text":"希望我們都是交通之光幫人民看緊荷包謝謝張委員接著我們請蔡宜宜委員蔡宜宜不在請我們鄭天才鄭委員"}]}},{"id":"149817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903409c7d032aee9c9633e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6e027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:15:20 - 12:20:32","影片長度":"00:05:12","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":312,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:20:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:15:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時15分）謝謝主席，請王美花部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。延續剛才半導體的話題，最近聽說台積電有機會得到美國50億美元的補助，大家都知道，因為晶片法案，美國要補助500億美元，可是台積電一直沒有爭取到。現在傳出台積電有可能爭取到50億美元的補助，您所了解的狀況是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：目前這個部分都是由美國政府決定，我個人還不清楚美國政府補助的金額。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以目前你沒有辦法確定這件事情？"],["王部長美花：沒有辦法確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，這陣子大家的焦點都集中在電價上漲的問題，例如調幅是多少，之前一直傳出你們希望能夠控制調幅不要太高，但是其中有一個前提，就是能不能將這次稅收超徵撥補給台電，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們希望撥補多少錢？1,000億元還是1,500億元？"],["王部長美花：我們確實是希望向行政院爭取比較多的補助。"],["王委員鴻薇：1,500億元，對不對？因為如果能夠補助到1,500億元，調幅就可以降低。可是部長，本席現在要告訴你一件事情，你的美夢可能會受到一些阻礙，為什麼呢？本席今天早上特別問主計長，我們稅收是不是超徵3,600億元，他說沒有那麼多，還要七折八扣，因為有一些公債發行等等，最後只剩下1,500億元。如果只剩下1,500億元，現在不只台電想要補助，勞保基金也快要破產，所以勞保基金也希望爭取補助。哇！大家都想著這筆錢。","所以如果按照他的說法，這次稅收超徵在扣除其他必要支出之後，只有1,500億元，顯然很難完全補助給你們。而且他說了一句話，他說如果全部都補助給台電的話，明年度的預算會很難編列，因為就沒有賸餘了。部長，這是不是你第一次聽到這個噩耗？"],["王部長美花：因為行政院還在試算，所以我們還沒有得到最後的答案。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是你只是先和他們喊價而已？"],["王部長美花：不是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們希望拿到最高的補助1,500億元，但事實上最後拿到的撥補金額不會那麼高。"],["王部長美花：行政院確實還在試算當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們的確是要求補助1,500億元，但是今天主計長也說的非常清楚。第二件事，審計長也說了，他說到目前為止，稅收超徵的部分，審計部還沒有審定。因為你們要撥補的話，也要等他們審定之後，你們才能夠拿到錢，也就是說，起碼要到7、8月份之後，所以你們不會立刻拿到錢。你知道這件事嗎？"],["王部長美花：這些事情都有程序，我大概知道流程。"],["王委員鴻薇：請教一下，如果你們能拿到1,500億元的話，我們的電價是不是可以控制？預估漲10到12%？"],["王部長美花：確實，兩邊會有連動，但是具體的數字恐怕還沒有辦法向委員說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：大概是2%到3%的差別，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對，有可能。因為這是由小組審議，所以我不知道細節。"],["王委員鴻薇：本席要說一下，如果要多補助台電一點的話，勢必會影響我們明年度的預算編列，這是主計長說的，本席今天也是第一次聽說，本席一直以為超徵的部分大概是3,600億元左右，但是他更正了，他說沒有這麼多。如果我們現在向行政院全部要來補助台電，那麼就會有一個問題，也就是會影響未來的新政府，520之後賴清德上台，他們明年的預算就會很難編列，現在是有這樣的狀況。"],["王部長美花：具體的財政怎麼編列，確實是主計處在負責。"],["王委員鴻薇：本席認為他現在是巧婦難為無米之炊，他覺得電價和撥補的問題最好分開處理，因為他很怕你們一直跟他要錢，結果到最後，他們沒有賸餘可以支應明年的預算，以上，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","請陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","登記發言的委員，除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外有葉元之委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那麼台電也想要補助 然後我們勞保基金也快要破產 勞保基金也希望能爭取補助我說哇 大家都想著你這筆錢 那所以如果按照他的說法 其實這次稅收超出 他在扣除其他的他的必要的支出之後 只有1500億"},{"start":150.922,"end":169.302,"text":"所以他顯然很難完全補助給你而且他說了一句話他說如果全部都給補助給台電的話那麼明年度的預算很難編他說因為就沒有剩餘了所以部長這是不是你第一次聽到的噩耗"},{"start":171.148,"end":184.396,"text":"因為院裡面還在試算所以我們還沒有得到最後的答案還是你是只是跟他喊價而已沒有沒有反正是拿到最高的1500億但是事實上最後應該拿到補助金額撥補金額不會那麼高"},{"start":186.86,"end":208.513,"text":"因為你們確實還在試算當中所以你們要求1500億但是呢今天主計長講得非常清楚第二件事情沈記長也說了他說因為到目前為止稅收超徵的這部分到現在沈記部沒有審定他唷他說如果要審定因為你要撥補的話你要等到他審定之後你才能夠拿到錢"},{"start":209.474,"end":231.53,"text":"也就是說起碼要到七八月份之後那所以也就是說你不會立刻拿到錢你知道這是嗎這個都有他們的程序我大概知道那個流程部分好所以如果請教一下如果你能拿到1500億的話我們電價是不是可以可以控制預估漲到10到12%"},{"start":235.041,"end":247.228,"text":"確實兩邊會有互動的關係沒有錯但是具體的數字恐怕我沒有辦法跟委員做說明兩到三趴的差別對不對有可能對但是因為細節其實是小組在審議我其實細節不知道"},{"start":250.43,"end":265.042,"text":"我要講一下就說要台電如果要補得多的話那麼勢必會影響我們明年度這是主計長說的我是今天也是第一次聽說我一直以為是大概3600億左右但是他跟證他說沒有這麼多"},{"start":266.403,"end":277.545,"text":"那麼如果我們現在就跟我們的行政院全部要來補助給台電那會有一個問題那會影響未來新政府520之後賴清德上來他的預算明年就很難編了是不是有這樣的狀況因為具體的財政怎麼編是確實是主計長這邊主計處這邊我說啊他現在是巧婦難為無米之炊啊"},{"start":294.502,"end":294.522,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690382ada747f2ca9cfa14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6233332d118b3cbf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:13:25 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- 11:59:54","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":386,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:59:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:53:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時53分）感謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我今天只有4分鐘而已。在上一次勞動部的工作報告當中，我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的，我看到你的工作報告內容，確實沒有錯，包括15歲到29歲的失業率，其實在金融海嘯之後也創了新低，這些都是事實沒有錯。但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次勞動部的工作報告當中，就是非典型就業人口在過去4年來創了新高，達到80.6萬人，這一塊數據占整體勞動力的比例，部長，你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少？你預估，你感覺到。"],["許部長銘春：我覺得現在的年輕人對於工作自由的選擇，會是他決定工作職類很重要的考量因素，所以我是覺得未來有可能會增加。"],["李委員彥秀：對！你跟我的看法一樣，我們看了韓國，我們看了日本，非典型就業人口應該是往上走的趨勢，因為很多年輕人他希望有彈性，工時要更靈活，當然非典型有不同的就業模式和方式。但是我相信你也非常清楚知道，在疫情過後，遠距的上班方式或電傳勞動的方式越來越多，過去傳統用這種指揮監督、管理強度的方式來決定他到底是僱傭或承攬，其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰。","部長，像之前我們常常在開會討論，包括Uber Eats跟foodpanda，我自己在基層走的時候，常常聽到外送員跟我講說他們被片面地調降外送獎金，突然一個公告就說這個月要調降，或者是增加外送的里程數，這個是不是叫做片面地修改勞動條件？這個算嘛？"],["許部長銘春：算。"],["李委員彥秀：你同意嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟陳情的件數多不多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，一發現有這個問題，我們馬上就會透過我們的對話平臺，其實這幾年我們有建立外送業者及外送工會的一個對話平臺，針對相關的爭議，包括像……"],["李委員彥秀：多嘛！對不對？重點是多嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我個人認為在非典型就業的模式上，我們應該要有更多的法規去保障勞工相關的權益，你同不同意？所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修，那你們的看法到底如何？"],["許部長銘春：因為外送跟派遣可能不太一樣，派遣的部分，那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭，所以在……"],["李委員彥秀：對，假承攬真僱傭，其實在這幾塊，勞動部接下來要面臨很大的挑戰和問題。"],["許部長銘春：委員，我記得我剛上任時，我們一起努力做了一些……"],["李委員彥秀：法規上的調整。"],["許部長銘春：法規上的調整，但是外送這一塊，我向委員報告，的確這一塊不容易啦！一直有人呼籲我們立專法，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你可以做嗎？或是你不能做的理由是什麼，要讓外界知道……"],["許部長銘春：不是，因為這個部分……"],["李委員彥秀：因為我在基層我都答應說我會幫他們爭取權益，我不能讓他們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低外送獎金，我覺得這是不合理的。"],["許部長銘春：對。其實對外送員的部分，我們在政策上是先從譬如說他的安全，還有他的薪酬保障，還有他的保險方面，我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的措施。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我知道你說的這些都是長期在做，但是對外送員來說，這可能是他的第二份工作、第三份工作，因為薪資不夠嘛！但是片面地去修正，如何在勞雇的過程當中，保障更大的權益、更多的權益……"],["許部長銘春：是，所以我們透過……"],["李委員彥秀：我們因應的方式到底是什麼，我覺得要更具體。我之前當立委是4年前，那都是我們4年前的修法，但是這幾年可能投入這些外送員的……"],["許部長銘春：對，那是派遣的部分，跟外送不太一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：派遣也好，外送員也好，越來越多，所以我覺得我們的法令是要越走越往前去進步、去涵蓋，照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們現在就是先透過對話的機制，剛剛我講的那個平臺其實也有發揮它的效果，對平臺業者有達成約束的效果，但是長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制，對這個……"],["李委員彥秀：什麼機制？因為這個機制我等很久，部長，我不是在考你，因為現在外送員越來越多，派遣的人員也越來越多，所以我們不能原地踏步。4年前我覺得我們有做一些努力，但是過去這4年我看到這一塊是很空的，我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋，照顧他們這些權益要照顧得更多，所以我在等待，既然未來非典型就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多，那在法規上，我們的因應方式到底是什麼？包括派遣，非典裡面有分很多，我們的因應方式是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：我會來積極……"],["李委員彥秀：這個是你最重要的業務，部長，我不用大聲跟你講，但是你非常清楚這一塊，年輕人非常重視這一塊，他們也都在等，為什麼這一次那麼多年輕人不支持你們？我在路上拜票，我天天都看到他們在罵民進黨，所以這一塊要做好！因為投入這一塊市場，很多都是年輕人，部長，我提醒你趕快做好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。現在處理臨時提案，總共有3案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：鑑於「促進新住民就業補助作業要點」第二條第三項第一款所指「新住民」，排除了「歸化（取得）國籍」之「外裔、外籍配偶」，導致超過14萬新住民，因此喪失參加勞發署所開設「新住民專班」之資格，故未能由勞動部「全額補助其訓練費用」並獲發「職業訓練生活津貼」。爰此，建請勞動部於兩個月內修正「促進新住民就業補助作業要點」，放寬第二條第三項第一款所指之「新住民」範圍，納入「歸化（取得）國籍」之外國人，確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍","二、","案由：鑑於我國新住民人數正式於民國112年超越全體原住民人數，達到59.2萬人之多，已經成為台灣社會重要的新興族裔。惟勞動部並未針對新住民進行就業調查，僅能由內政部移民署每五年進行的「新住民生活需求調查」中，擷取部分內容作為新住民就業政策之參考。爰此，建請勞動部於兩個月內，研議針對新住民群體進行「年度就業調查」之可行性，並報告社會福利及衛生環境委員會，確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實，避免政府制訂相關政策方向失真。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍","三、","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國僱主資格，依現行法規「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」第12條規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女」或有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。現行規定，對於台灣多數有僱用家庭幫傭需求的家庭，是可望而不可及。","上述規定，不符合現今國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之現狀，且目前多為雙薪家庭，需在工作與養育子女上兼顧，增加不少年輕生育家庭壓力。","為減緩台灣家庭壓力，爰要求勞動部於三個月內，研議放寬審查標準，修正相關規定符合台灣家庭現況所需之方案，向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出書面報告，是否有當？敬請　公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍　　陳菁徽"],["主席：請問第1案行政單位有無意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：第1案沒有意見。"],["主席：委員OK啦？好，照案通過。","請問第2案行政單位或委員有無意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員會，第2案的文字也跟委員這邊做溝通，是不是建議做部分修正？倒數第3行原來是「並報告社會福利及衛生環境委員會」，把「報告」改成「向」，「並向社會福利及衛生環境委員會」後面加「提出書面報告」，後面的文字沒有修正。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？OK，無異議就照案通過。","第1案後來又加了幾個文字，剛剛第1案就照文字修正通過。第2案也是涂委員這邊……"],["涂委員權吉：都沒問題。"],["主席：也是照文字修正通過。","接下來第3案。"],["蔡署長孟良：第3案跟各位委員報告，因為很多委員在關心幫傭申請資格的點數，過去社會對這個議題確實有非常多不同意見，也擔心對婦女就業或是對幼兒成長造成影響，不過現在整個點數在長期執行之後，可能跟社會現況，因為可能有一些單薪或雙薪家庭有家庭照顧上的問題，所以大家確實有一些意見是說這個點數是不是必須要做一些檢討。那這個提案我們跟委員有溝通，原來委員是說要把它降到1點，我們認為1點可能會影響衝擊太大，也建議必須要留有一些研議的空間，所以在文字上我們是建議，是不是讓我們跟社會各界研議相關的標準，然後符合社會的現況與現實的情形？"],["主席：請提案委員蘇清泉委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝主席。現在沒有人要生小孩，要叫人家生4個孩子，孩子要6歲以下，你是神經病嗎？什麼12歲以下，這個太糟糕！陳菁徽委員自己有3個小孩，她都沒有資格申請。你要叫人家生，還要叫人家上班，還要怎麼樣，這個太糟糕，所以一定要放寬，你不要給我研議完以後又走回頭路，不行耶！部長，這樣不行哦！所以這個留空間讓你們去研議，我沒有意見，但是一定要放寬啦！這個很重要很重要，以上。"],["主席：第3案是不是有文字……"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我有其他意見。"],["主席：好，淑芬委員。"],["林委員淑芬：各位，我們支持不管是育兒還是老人都要有人照顧，但是我們在講開放家事服務工、看護工，我們從看護老人開始看就知道，外傭、外籍移工不是解方啊！現在老人每天在那裡吵架的很多哦！那整個國家不管，然後也沒有配套。","1個月以2萬元的薪水，事實上我們請過看護工的人都知道不是2萬元，現在私底下的成本你沒有到3萬元是不行的，可是如果家庭幫傭的薪水2萬元不可能，然後3萬元你叫他又要做家事，又要煮三餐，然後還要一打二，照顧兩個小孩，還24小時週休0天，可能週休給加班費就沒有了，然後可能年休看看有沒有幾天。我告訴你，每一個照顧小孩的外籍幫傭可能最後都想要轉換雇主，然後他就每天跟你吵架，說我要去廠工那裡，我要去產業界，因為產業界的工時，禮拜一到禮拜五即便是加班也有止盡的時候，不是無止無盡，不是1天24小時。而且產業界的勞工加班，薪水還比較高，一個月領5萬、6萬，然後他可以週休至少1日，1例1休也是至少1日，他遇到該休的都有勞基法保障，所以在這種狀況裡面，他要做家事，然後又要無止無盡，半夜孩子哭還要起來顧，1天24小時，然後又要煮三餐，然後一打二，到時候兒虐的狀況也會出現啊！然後薪水領這麼少，他不會去跟雇主吵架一直鬧嗎？","當然我們不是在講這個而已，我不是要講這個，我是說外籍幫傭不是萬靈丹，不是一勞永逸。你要想誰需要，不能夠因為生小孩而失去工作，這種經濟需求這麼強烈的人，不能離職的人，他們有能力去聘請幫傭嗎？連辭職都不行，一定要去工作才能夠支付一家所需，這樣的婦女有能力申請外籍幫傭嗎？申請得到，現在的年輕人家裡有足夠的房間可以讓這個外籍幫傭一起睡嗎？居住空間夠嗎？所以這樣的政策是真正的解決方法嗎？","更不要講現在本國的中高齡婦女二度就業，其實就是到宅服務和家事清潔，我們還知道現在育兒照顧、到宅服務的保母等等，都還需要證照制度，而你破壞現在的證照制度，找一個外傭來就可以吃喝拉撒睡。我當媽媽的時候，我也是兩個小孩，你知道我最想做的是什麼嗎？我最想做的就是去上班，因為在家裡面又要做家事，又要照顧兩個小孩，我心力交瘁，我寧願去上班，我覺得上班是休息，那你覺得那個幫傭他不會這麼想嗎？發生兒虐的時候怎麼辦？語言不通怎麼辦？教養上怎麼辦？把專業的照顧變成好像隨隨便便都可以做，這不是走回頭路嗎？那你到底有多少從業人員會失業？","我再講一個，現在長照是一個福利政策，但是我們都知道長照最終要銜接到保險制度，如果跟長照一樣，有大量的看護工在那裡，要銜接過去是很困難的，如果你再繼續放寬，我跟你講，長照的保險制度是不可能的，你知道這樣會變成什麼？變成窮老人、窮失能的人沒有人照顧，因為沒有國家級的社會保險，沒有這個長照保險，然後有能力請的都去請外勞，沒能力請的就沒人顧，不然就變成家裡面最可憐的那個老女人繼續顧，所以在這種狀況裡面，我們以前車之鑑來看，兒照的從業人員會不會被衝擊到？如果外籍幫傭就可以解決，那我們公共托育也不用做了嘛！全部都靠外傭來就好了！所以請得起外傭的就用外傭，請不起的就公共托育，公共托育品質會不會每況愈下啊？因為大家覺得資源不用花那麼多，有錢人都已經有外傭了，其他就隨便做一做。","我的意思是說，我們認為這個東西，社會會有這種狀況都是因為政府做得太少，所以才產生這個問題，讓我們工作跟育兒只能擇一，可是你要想到經濟最弱勢的，他工作跟育兒都不能擇一啊！他必須都要有，那他怎麼辦？所以我們在想說包括彈性親子假等等，這個配套要做得好，這已經是刻不容緩了，所以部長，不是光在這裡說你們回去研議開放外傭，除了長照以外，你的親子假要到12歲的，不是外傭顧到6歲而已，6歲之後父母就不用再顧小孩嗎？就不用再參與了嗎？就沒有親子假的需求了嗎？當然有啊！這個外傭開放了以後，可以解決6到12歲的嗎？也沒辦法啊！所以現在政府的角色要進來，不管是照顧老的還是照顧小的，最重要的是政府要拿出手段。","現在在朝公共化、準公共化，另外還要再開放讓幫傭多一點，公共化還需要做嗎？都靠外傭，你全部都補助申請外傭就好了，然後一個外傭顧兩個，煮飯、打掃還要24小時全年無休，你看他會不會抓狂？然後你的社福人力再增加一點，兒虐就又出來了，所以我的意思是說，這是誇張極致，但是我們今天要凸顯的是，政府該有的制度面要進來啦！不是只有服務經濟能力好的、家庭空間夠的，那經濟能力差的、家庭空間不夠的人要怎麼辦？難道我就沒有生小孩的權利嗎？難道我就沒有照顧兩個的權利嗎？然後政府都不用進來幫忙照顧嗎？好，大概是這樣子。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","剛剛署長有特別提到，第3案臨時提案有做文字修正，是不是文字修正完之後讓蘇委員看過？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為有和蘇委員這邊溝通，所以原來委員所提的「累計點數一點」，這個部分同意修正，修正之後就給予我們一些空間，我們來跟社會各界再做一些研議。"],["主席：這樣可以嗎？可以，那就照文字修正通過。","接下來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.22909375,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.101593750000001,"end":54.149093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.570968750000006,"end":54.587843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.587843750000005,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.72284375,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.14471875,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.27971875,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.258468750000006,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.13596875,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.345968750000004,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.63159375000001,"end":124.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.93971875000001,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.83659375000002,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.27034375,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.47284375,"end":143.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.62034375000002,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.12659375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.02471875,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.15971875,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.19346875000002,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.65659375,"end":165.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.64659375000002,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.42284375,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.47346875000002,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.95721875,"end":177.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.61471875,"end":179.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.91846875000002,"end":181.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.26409375,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.29721875,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.09846875000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.13221875000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.96596875,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.97846875000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.99534375000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.04596875000001,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.75034375,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.22659375,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.79159375,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.56659375,"end":217.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":219.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.59159375000002,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.22409375,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.62846875000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.24846875,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.68221875,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.48659375000003,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.27096875,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.02971875000003,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":252.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.61596875,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261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e跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金"},{"start":130.075,"end":152.016,"text":"突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台"},{"start":154.699,"end":176.915,"text":"我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障"},{"start":178.156,"end":185.923,"text":"勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何"},{"start":187.014,"end":215.869,"text":"之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼"},{"start":217.67,"end":245.769,"text":"所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面"},{"start":246.369,"end":274.863,"text":"好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則"},{"start":276.104,"end":304.627,"text":"我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果"},{"start":304.827,"end":321.695,"text":"吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多"},{"start":322.435,"end":348.162,"text":"所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼"},{"start":349.143,"end":353.962,"text":"不管是派遣 非典裡面分很多 那我們的因應方式是什麼"},{"start":354.97,"end":379.648,"text":"這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝"},{"start":384.991,"end":385.401,"text":"響鐘!"}]}},{"id":"149814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690391b9c2dc449eb1d2b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a62d0461bc9268856f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:11:01 - 12:18:03","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":422,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:18:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:11:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時11分）主席好，我想要請主計長。"],["主席：好，請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主計長早。你那個茶葉蛋的調查沒有確實，我記得全家有一個麻辣茶葉蛋，好像二十幾塊。"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我不曉得有麻辣茶葉蛋，我們的同仁知道。謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。那我想要請教你，你預估今年的CPI是1.85%。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。那個是沒有包括電價。謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有包括4月份電價？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為電價到底調多少幅度，目前我們不曉得，我們沒有辦法做預估。謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是不包含電價嘛？那2月份的物價指數升高，你說是因為基期的關係，所以年增率是3.08%嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是如果加上電價呢？如果未來加上電價，有沒有可能今年度的物價指數增幅會超過2%？"],["朱主計長澤民：可能。但是要看未來蔬菜水果的情況而定，因為蔬菜水果價格是未知數，可能受颱風或國際間能源價格的影響。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以也有可能有其他因素，例如蔬果的價格。我看了前幾年的情況，物價上調的時候，PPI也同樣都會上調，PPI上升的時候，會不會讓製造業把因電價上漲而增加的成本轉嫁到所有消費者身上？"],["朱主計長澤民：可能，但是是不是完全、百分之百轉嫁，很難講，我想委員很清楚，要看供需彈性而定，而且如果技術進步的話，業者可以吸收這些成本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是大部分的情況下，電價上漲都會轉嫁到消費者身上，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：那就是直接效果，因為民生用電占CPI的權數大概是1.2%，但是從供給面來看，委員很清楚，成本會不會轉嫁，就是我剛才講的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你覺得會超過2%，還是到2.5%？你的預測有時候都跟人家不一樣。"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我要看它的漲幅，至於漲價的程度，那個是假定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前的漲價幅度都是假定的？"],["朱主計長澤民：應該要看會有多少轉嫁，而且據我所知，台電的方案可能會有依規模大小，漲幅可能會不一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：工業用電的漲幅不一樣，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：據我所知，有這個規劃。未來要看電價審議委員會的審議決定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但央行楊總裁說，未來CPI2%是常態，你贊不贊同？"],["朱主計長澤民：世界各國都是這麼認為，而且我們的2%跟其他國家比較起來，是比較低的。在東亞這幾個國家，我們只有比香港高。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你覺得未來臺灣的物價指數上漲的年增率都是2%？"],["朱主計長澤民：那應該是國際間的比較，我不敢說都是2%，我剛才講過，這些都是未知數，是不確定的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。","還有一件事情，除了電價上漲，在3月15日還有碳費審議委員會第一次開會，你預估今年的經濟成長率是3.43%，如果電價上漲，再加上碳費徵收等等相關因素產生，你有沒有信心今年的經濟成長率可以達到3.43%？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們估計電費對GDP的影響大概是0.1%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以影響不大？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們當然要看它的漲幅，如果漲幅沒有那麼多，影響會比0.1%更低。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你的模型裡面顯示電價對於GDP的成長是沒有影響的？"],["朱主計長澤民：不能說沒有影響，跟委員報告，0.1%就是有兩百多億了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：到底是有還是沒有？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然有啊。兩百多億不小啊。因為我們的GDP今年可能接近25兆，0.1%就是大概兩百多億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剛才聽起來好像沒有，你現在又說有，如果碳費加進去呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：碳費什麼時候調目前都還沒有確定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還沒確定就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們也沒有在估計不確定的東西，我如果每天都發布說會怎麼樣，這樣會影響政策。我一再強調，我們只做會計、統計的工作，只敘述統計，不做價值的敘述，我可以跟你講，以前的預測是在國發會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們不要在這裡談學術性的問題，我們討論一個問題，在什麼樣的情況下，你預估這3.43%不會達成？"],["朱主計長澤民：像是油價的上漲。"],["謝委員衣鳯：油價今年度因素很大，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。因為我們目前是以油價八十一塊多來估計，以接近82塊來估計，至於將來油價會不會有很大的影響，就看它的漲幅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。就只有油價嗎？還有什麼？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然還有，像國際原料的價格或者所謂的地緣政治、不確定因素，都可能。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我時間到了，謝謝。謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員。謝謝主計長。","接著請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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媒體說的轉嫁的那應該要看他是否會有多少轉嫁而且他的據我知道台電的方案他可能會有一個規模大小可能漲幅可能會不一樣工業用電也漲幅不一樣是不是有據我知道有這個規劃未來這個要看電價審議委員會的那一個審議決定"},{"start":198.646,"end":218.705,"text":"但我們央行總裁說未來CPI 2%是常態你讚不讚同我是認為因為世界各國都是認為而且我們這個2%跟其他國家比較起來是比較低的在東亞這幾個國家我們只有比香港高"},{"start":221.542,"end":233.234,"text":"所以你覺得未來台灣的這個就是物價指數的上漲的年生率都是2%以上對那應該是國際間的比較我不敢說都是2%那個我剛才講的未知數是不確定的"},{"start":237.577,"end":265.424,"text":"還有一個事情這其實電價的上漲還有我們3月15號還有碳費的這個審議的那個第一次開會那你預估今年的經濟成長率是3.43%你認為如果電價上漲然後還有我們碳費徵收等等相關的這些因素產生的時候你這個3.43%你有沒有信心可以達到"},{"start":266.024,"end":267.526,"text":"所以不大當然要看到的"},{"start":281.408,"end":284.432,"text":"所以你的模型裡面顯示電價對於GDP的成長是沒有影響的?0.1跟委員報告0.1就是有200多億了"},{"start":300.967,"end":313.964,"text":"啊到底是有還是沒有當然有啊兩百多億不小啊因為我們的GDP大概是今年可能接近25兆啊那個0.1個百分點就是大概兩百多億啊"},{"start":316.688,"end":336.026,"text":"你剛才聽起來像沒有,你現在又說有,如果碳費加進去?碳費的話目前什麼時候調到都還沒有確定所以還沒確定就對了對,我們也沒有在做那個估計不確定的東西我在每天都要發布說會怎麼樣這樣的會影響政策我一再強調我們"},{"start":340.896,"end":345.018,"text":"我們討論一個在什麼樣子的情況下到底你預估的這個3.43%不會達成會怎麼樣不會達成"},{"start":367.83,"end":384.476,"text":"不過那個就是所謂的一個是什麼,像那個是什麼油價的上漲。油價今年度很,因素很大是不是?對,油價因為我們目前估計油價是以81塊多來,好來估計。80,接近82塊來,好來估計。那對於說將來油價的會一個很大的,會有一個影響,它的漲幅啦。好。"},{"start":397.048,"end":397.308,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員"}]}},{"id":"149813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cf1665183cd91ea433e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a69c8886d814b768f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:10:19 - 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- 12:10:23","影片長度":"00:09:57","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":597,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:10:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:00:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1411,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時）謝謝主席，有請管主委。"],["主席：好，請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。主委，事實上剛剛來稍微聽一段，我覺得我們支持海巡，海巡的執法不管是需要驅離、需要壓迫、需要盤查，就是要大膽去做……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，那個勇氣是……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為要守護我們海疆，尤其遇到三無船隻的時候，怎麼可能會「頓蹬」！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，那個勇氣的保護，我是非常非常堅持的，因為那個是在一念之間，當我們決定要去登檢的時候，雙方都是風裡來浪裡去的，很危險。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，因為在海上嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，雙方一樣危險。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，海上的海浪無法預測……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們如果沒有給他們支持……"],["蔡委員易餘：我們的海巡人員還要登艦耶！登艦會不會有風險？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有啊……"],["蔡委員易餘：要去做盤查。"],["管主任委員碧玲：三隻手指頭斷掉的，去年下半年9月的樣子，就有三隻手指頭斷掉的、韌帶斷掉的。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們海巡兄弟受傷的情形也很多，所以這個執法的決心與勇氣，這次事件以來我的心也很糾結，我想跟他們說：你們以後就用趕的就好了，不要去登檢。但說不出口，因為執法的決心與執法的勇氣是我們國家很寶貴的一環。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，所以主委，我覺得我們這種態度很堅定……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們怎麼能預判？那個看起來是三無船隻，我們不用把它定義為漁船，走私船都有可能耶！我們幹嘛去幫他們預判它就是漁船！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我會這麼強烈地在這一次一定無論如何要捍衛執法的正當性，其實就如同委員所說的，執法的決心跟願意……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，就是該執法就執法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：願意不顧自己的生死去保護我們的海疆……"],["蔡委員易餘：在第一線啦！在海疆這裡……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得我們真的是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這實在是國家的寶藏。"],["蔡委員易餘：在這個事件裡面，社會是需要給我們整個海巡弟兄更大的掌聲才對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們當然也是大公無私、不偏不倚，然後由檢調來看有沒有執法過當，我們目前所掌握的事證，就讓我真的要非常強烈地來捍衛我們這一次的執法。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝主委。第二個，我就教主委，因為主委在去年的時候有跟我在布袋開了一個針對外傘頂洲的公聽會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們有一個計畫要進行。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這一個公聽會主要是在討論外傘頂洲，因為外傘頂洲被稱做消失的國土，這幾年在我們吳政委的主導之下，包括海委會、包括水利署，甚至……"],["管主任委員碧玲：國海院。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，國海院，事實上大家都投入啦！我們看得出來，這個外傘頂洲大概就是因為在雲林麥寮港的建設之後，它的沙源補充是來不及整個外傘頂洲所流失的沙，所以它就漸漸消失，從1,700公頃到現在大概剩下900公頃，差不多剩一半再多啦！過去雲林縣政府有在那邊插門牌，表示外傘頂洲是雲林的，然後插了一個門牌。我跟主委報告，那個門牌的地方現在沒有路了，現在變成海了，那邊已經變成海了，所以這就變成是外傘頂洲在減少，而且它不斷地產生破口，有破口就造成浪會從破口流進去，浪如果跑進去就會影響到內海，我們從這裡看到，內海大概就是臺灣養蚵產業最多的一個地方。","要怎麼守護好外傘頂洲？我之前也跟主委說過，事實上最好的建議就是外傘頂洲少了「中央山脈」啦！「中央山脈」的意思是什麼？那裡如果颱風來，因為整個外傘頂洲很平坦，都是沙，所以浪直接打下去，就把沙又往裡面內推回去，不斷地內推，然後也造成整個東石的外海開始內陸化，海不見了，這個又影響到未來整個不管是漁業或是養蚵產業，全部都受影響。所以主委，我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，那個淤積讓船根本都沒有辦法進出。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們目前的計畫是用載的，從布袋港還是從雲林北港溪，那邊清出來的土就把它載過去，但都太慢了，而且花了好多預算。我覺得最快的方式真的就是用抽砂船，然後跟內海的漁民溝通，差不多這段就讓我們抽沙去外傘頂洲，然後把外傘頂洲中間的中央山脈拉出來，中央山脈只要比海水的浪更高，它就有辦法擋浪，這樣沙就不會一直被打下去，不然我們現在做的很多方式有點是在做白工，而且我們也花了預算，在這幾年我們大概會投入10億來做外傘頂洲的固沙，但是我很擔心這樣的預算投入會變成做白工啦！主委，這個我覺得你再思考一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，那天相關的單位都有在那裡，水利署也好，還是交通部也好，都有在那裡，國海院也是有在那裡，有一個計畫就是希望6月的時候初步能夠有一個看法……"],["蔡委員易餘：我們6月可以先去看啦！他們目前都是生態工法……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：生態工法我覺得很好，他們大概就是這樣用一些石籠，然後在水那邊把它固定住，他們也是希望從根底這邊把沙抓住，不過我們現在知道它除了下面的沙……"],["管主任委員碧玲：水利署在做的。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為海的長浪很強嘛！會把沙往內推，但是沙除了長浪在往內推之外，最主要是島上的沙留不住。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，因為6月快到了，我現在叫我們處長快點跟水利署、相關單位先會一遍，看現在的進度如何，用的是什麼樣的工法在研究，儘快讓這件事情要如期。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我跟你報告，我們的召委也是雲林人耶！他對雲林的感情沒話說的，這裡的王美惠、黃捷以及我，我們三個算是嘉義組的。外傘頂洲如我剛剛說的，那裡淤沙的狀況，變成雲林跟嘉義的漁港，包括布袋商港，都是嚴重的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：都嚴重的淤積。"],["蔡委員易餘：嚴重的淤積。我現在看到海巡有兩艘最專業的海巡艦，嘉義艦是4,000萬噸級，上禮拜雲林艦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：4,000噸。"],["蔡委員易餘：4,000噸級，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，4,000噸。"],["蔡委員易餘：嘉義也4,000噸，現在這兩艘是海巡最勇的，但這兩艘船無法開進去雲林任何一個港，麥寮港可以，嘉義沒有一個港，我們布袋港，這艘4,000噸的開進來布袋港就剛好卡在那裡。"],["管主任委員碧玲：船就……"],["蔡委員易餘：船就擱淺在那裡，很諷刺，當然這個是大自然，因為外傘頂洲的這個沙洲，然後沙已經影響到周遭的漁港，所以我感覺我們有時候要正視這個問題，就是外傘頂洲的固沙，然後也要配合這些漁港的清沙，因為這些漁港如果照法令規定都要保持1.5米的深度，但目前較深的時候是差不多1米，較淺的時候可能差不多剩60公分，漁船出港是很危險的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：署長可能想說明。"],["蔡委員易餘：漁業署長也在這裡。所以這也變成一個問題，我們為了清沙每年花錢，而且都花好幾千萬元清，不過仍然無法解決問題啊！所以這些問題都要整理起來，我覺得大家要正視問題，推出外傘頂洲固沙及漁港清淤的特別條例。"],["張署長致盛：是，委員講得對，清淤是一種方法……"],["蔡委員易餘：特別條例出來，把雲林和嘉義……"],["張署長致盛：但正本清源才是根本。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！要正本清源。我們一直沒有正視問題，整個雲林的漁港、嘉義的漁港基本上都是沒辦法使用的啊！這點雲嘉都很有感。我們就真的針對外傘頂洲的固沙把特別條例推出來，在場委員差不多大家都會舉手，照我看來，氣勢真是夠好！正好在這裡的都是支持雲林與嘉義的。好嗎？我們就大方地推出一套正本清源的方式。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們來轉達給水利署。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，不要這邊處理一件、那邊處理一件，沒辦法解決事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我都有去看過，所以我很了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：非常感謝蔡易餘委員。","主委，你先留下來，因為蔡易餘委員說外傘頂洲一直漂流，本來是在雲林縣口湖鄉，而我出身海邊，所以我知道它會一直漂流，其實罪魁禍首是六輕，因為六輕的港建造，濁水溪的沙無法補充，才造成外傘頂洲一直漂流，所以要從濁水溪源頭管制，因為濁水溪的泥沙無法繼續覆蓋，當地又算是北風。所以未來若是要辦，我和蔡易餘委員會共同參與。謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：來想想辦法。"],["主席：謝謝。","今天中午不休息，繼續開會。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","丁學忠、丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員蘇巧慧、高金素梅、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未答復部分請相關單位於1周以內以書面回復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.38534375,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.41034375,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.890968750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.69659375,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.297843750000002,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.512843750000002,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.74034375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.292843750000003,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.38534375,"end":28.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.12346875,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.00471875,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.31659375,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.89034375,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.00784375,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.52221875,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.563468750000006,"end":53.828468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.33534375,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.899718750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.69284375,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.064093750000005,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.915968750000005,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.02096875000001,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.66159375000001,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.11284375000001,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.10721875,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.03909375,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.46096875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.82284375,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.38721875,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.07409375,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.52096875000001,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.92096875,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.49409375,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.49284375,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.96096875,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.83846875,"end":125.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.50909375,"end":134.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.16721875,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.93471875,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.49534375000002,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.11534375000002,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.32596875000002,"end":140.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.06721875,"end":156.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.86409375000002,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.68159375000002,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.13659375,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.24596875,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.12721875,"end":169.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.13096875000002,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.56096875,"end":173.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.32846875,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.61534375000002,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.30284375000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.18846875,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.22534375,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.01596875,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.37034375000002,"end":205.18034375000002}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海洋業務委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋業務委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":23.786,"end":34.57,"text":"需要壓迫需要盤查就是要大膽去做因為守護我們的海鄉尤其遇到商務船隻的時候怎麼可能會頓跌呢"},{"start":36.593,"end":56.801,"text":"各位委員報告那個勇氣的保護我是非常非常堅持的因為那個是在一念之間當我們決定要去凍結的時候雙方都是都是風裡來浪裡去的沒有錯因為在海上嘛雙方一樣危險對啊海上你說那個海運無法預測當我們的海巡人員還要凍結欸凍結會不會有風險"},{"start":61.843,"end":63.044,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":79.29,"end":79.951,"text":"凍結書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．"},{"start":96.921,"end":111.439,"text":"所以注意我們這種態度我們態度很堅定我們怎麼能預判說那個看起來山無船隻我們不用把它定義叫漁船走私船都有可能我們幹嘛去幫他們預斷它就是漁船"},{"start":114.563,"end":143.613,"text":"所以我會這麼強烈的在這一次一定無論如何捍衛執法的正當性其實就如同委員所說的這個執法的決心跟願意不顧自己的生死去保護我們的海江在第一線在海江這裡我覺得我們真的是在這一個事件裡面這個社會是需要給我們整個海巡我們的弟兄"},{"start":144.4,"end":161.596,"text":"更大的掌聲才對我們當然我們當然也是大公無私不偏不倚然後剪掉來看有沒有執法過當那我們目前所掌握的事證就讓我真的要要非常強力的來捍衛我們這一次的執法謝謝主委那我第二個我來"},{"start":167.179,"end":174.183,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":195.069,"end":211.029,"text":"政委吳政委的主導之下包括海委會包括我們水利署甚至我們國海院事實上大家都投入啦是因為這個外産頂周我們看得出來大概就是因為"},{"start":212.31,"end":223.534,"text":"雲林美寮港的一個建設之後它的沙源的補充是來不及整個外山景周這個沙的一個流失所以它就是漸漸消失從1700公頃到現在大概剩下900公頃差不多存一半多了過去了婚姻雲林縣政府有在那邊插門牌"},{"start":234.817,"end":246.227,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":248.174,"end":248.634,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案。 凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":277.433,"end":303.754,"text":"這中央政府的意思是什麼?因為我們這次從台來,因為那裡整個外產廠算白痴痴,就刷所以那個硬啊,直接打下去就把刷子往裡面又內推回去所以不斷的內推,然後也造成整個東石的外海這邊開始就是內陸化,這個害不起來所以這個就影響到了未來整個,不管是我們的漁業啦,不管是養科產業,全部都受影響"},{"start":304.935,"end":313.066,"text":"所以主委我覺得那個預計船都根本進出都沒辦法對阿我們目前是用載我們目前的計劃用載為布地槓或是說要為婚姻八岡溪那裡清出來的土都載過去"},{"start":321.678,"end":323.339,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":347.493,"end":362.3,"text":"不然我們現在做的很多方式有點在做白工而我們也花了我們預算在這幾年我們大概會投入10億來做外山頂洲的固砂但是我很擔心這樣的預算的投入會變成白工會做白工"},{"start":365.909,"end":385.254,"text":"主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下。我們那天相關的單位都有在那裡。 主委,這件事我看你都思考一下"},{"start":385.914,"end":410.506,"text":"生態工法我覺得很好,因為大概就是用一些石籠,石籠然後在水那邊把它固定住,也是他也是希望從這個根底這邊把沙Q掉,不對我們現在知道說,它除了會比較沙的,因為這個海的長浪很強嘛,會把沙往內推,但是沙除了長浪再往內推之外,最主要是島上的沙留不住。"},{"start":411.906,"end":416.949,"text":"主委我跟您報告,您想說我們教育他也婚姻的,他對婚姻,對婚姻感情那些不會說的,我們這裡王美惠、黃婕、我,我們三個會選自己做的"},{"start":441.069,"end":459.904,"text":"阿所以齁因為這個外山頂座我剛才講這個淤沙齁這一個淤沙的狀況變成雲林跟嘉義我們的漁港包括布袋山港都是嚴重的都嚴重的淤積嚴重的積積我現在看到海巡有兩艘齁雄帶鋪路的海巡艦嘉義艦4000萬噸級今天擺雲林艦4000噸40004000噸級對吧4000噸4000"},{"start":467.95,"end":468.592,"text":"海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":477.125,"end":477.785,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"},{"start":501.64,"end":522.769,"text":"所以我覺得我們有時候要正視這個問題就是外山頂洲的固沙然後也要配合這些漁港漁港的傾沙因為這些漁港如果照法令規定他們都要保持1.5米的一個深度目前比較深的時候差不多1米啦比較淺的時候可能都差不多60公分那個基準要處理很危險的"},{"start":527.049,"end":534.757,"text":"所以這也是變成一個問題,我們清沙每當開機都開幾個清盤在那裡清,我們沒辦法改過問題,所以這個問題都蹊蹺作會我覺得我們大家正式問題我們來推出一個外山頂洲的固沙及漁港清淤的特別條例"},{"start":550.653,"end":553.155,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":580.613,"end":581.374,"text":"請查照案。"}]}},{"id":"149811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69037c5bf42e611644a114015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a63d75864859a57f935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:49:51 - 11:59:33","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":582,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:59:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:49:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1319,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時49分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。關於金門海域三無船隻的翻覆事件，主委你首先是對「碰撞」的用語有意見，也槓上了許多委員……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是「碰撞」，是「撞船」。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係！再來，本席也跟許多委員一樣，我相信主委你也是一樣，不論是國安、人道、執法這樣子的面向，都不能接受沒有密錄器、沒有畫面，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個我們真的需要痛加的檢討，但是這次的情況我們瞭解到小船CP艇在這樣的追擊之下那個浪的狀況，湧浪的狀況……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：海巡的人也非常的辛苦，我們都知道，在這樣的情況之下，主委你也不斷地說對兩岸雙方的協商落幕是有期待的，但是經過了這20天，協商了15次，結果目前的狀況呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們當然覺得非常的遺憾沒有完成，有幾個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是等於協商15次後破局，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們願意持續地努力，朝向後續的發展來努力，趕快找到人道優先的解決方法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：OK，當然不放棄，但是本席要請教你，在你協商的這20天，當然很辛苦，15次的協商破局最主要的原因是什麼？你認為呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想等一下署長可以做補充，在我這裡的瞭解最主要其實還是因為雙方的制度落差非常大，所以對制度的認知完全不一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就你說的，我等一下請主管機關單位說明，但是在說明之前，這樣子的協商破局，你認為對兩岸關係是不是有影響？會不會影響到兩岸的溝通對話空間更困難？請說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，因為這一次的事件，我印象是在4月17日的時候開始，我們就發現對岸……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個過程大家都非常的清楚，本席要請問您……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為跟政治結合的結果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政治結合的結果？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為跟政治綁在一起的結果，人道的部分就有其他制度上落差的因素綁進來的時候，我們就很難一次達成共識，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，很難一次達成，當然你剛才說了你會持續……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以局部的人道部分，其實有幾個部分，比如撫慰金的部分，比如遺體取回的部分，其實有很高度的共識，往後我是很希望，不知道有沒有那個可能，我們在努力，希望人道優先的領域，我們能夠趕快的來往前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在你回答的當中說不知道有沒有可能，所以還是針對本席的提問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有在努力，當然關鍵是雙方……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子的事件過程經過15次的協商之後是破局的，你認為對兩岸關係是不是有所影響？對未來兩岸溝通的對話空間是不是會有影響？Yes或No？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望這件事情還是能夠以執法的個案角度來面對，如果把兩岸之間的政治議題綁進來的時候，確實對話上就會遇到很多卡卡的地方……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：更大的障礙嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：會比較卡住，但是15次的溝通表示有在溝通……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個你也說明了，我請主管機關說這一次破局的主要原因是什麼，請做說明。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員的關心，我想我們經過這麼多次的溝通跟協商，我想在這個過程當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，大家都很辛苦，主要的原因是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：其實我們有達成一些共識，雙方都有在這個過程當中，像我們對於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你認為不是破局？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們現在都是各自把各自的歧見帶回來，他們帶回去，我們帶回來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，各自帶回來，接下來動作要怎麼做呢？"],["周副主任委員美伍：現在我們非常期待我們能夠重新回到協商的過程，我們也……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，目前的樣態是不是各自把各自的議題帶……"],["周副主任委員美伍：歧見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：歧見帶回去，然後我們還是期待繼續有這個平臺。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然，我們希望繼續能夠有這個平臺協商，我們也透過各個可能的機構來協助我們，不管是海基會、對方的海協會、紅十字會跟一些相關的單位都在做，剛剛我們主委特別提到，我們也希望能夠在最短的時間之內，站在人道關懷的立場給家屬最多的照顧，這是我們從一開始就沒有變的原則，我也在這邊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以換句話說，我們仍舊期待溝通對話的空間是持續的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然，持續。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝你。接下來我們針對6浬的事件，大家也都非常的關心，到目前為止，現在漁船進入領海是不是成為常態？是不是有SOP的因應方案，請做說明。"],["周副主任委員美伍：都有，跟委員回報，我們現在每天在臺灣周遭或者金馬澎都有一些越界捕魚的漁船……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以它是常態了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，這麼多年以來一直都有，我們也都按照我們的SOP去驅離。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也希望，既然成為常態，這個SOP我們能夠有所因應跟精進的空間。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，一定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再把因應跟精進空間的書面資料給本席。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：另外，海巡相關灰色地帶的侵擾有變多嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有變多。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我覺得數量上來講，我們從今年的2月跟3月跟去年的2月、3月來比，相對的還是有減少。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是沒有變多，還減少。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：禁止水域的是不是失效了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，沒有失效……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也沒有。"],["周副主任委員美伍：現在仍然存在。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以對於漁民跟主權，它還是保障的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：保障，我們一定是保障漁民為第一優先。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為漁民非常重要，最近傳出劉五店航道的問題，不管是政府各方所講的，不知道是什麼答案也好，問題是清淤船進去到底可行不可行？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員特別報告，公告的劉五店航道當初的主體對象就是客貨輪，所以今天……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以清淤船是不行的嘛……"],["周副主任委員美伍：它不是不行，但是它都要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是不行，不然是什麼？公告沒有的啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，它都要經過一個報備或申請的程序……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這次它有沒有報備？"],["周副主任委員美伍：它這次並沒有完成……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：並沒有報備？那我們要怎麼處置？"],["周副主任委員美伍：但是我們立刻就通知對方，請它按照程序向金門的航管單位做報備，因為我們在驅離的同時，我們也告知對方可以經由它的管道向我們的航管單位做出申請。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問署長，在這樣的情況之下，它是沒報備的，那麼對岸是不是有在切香腸，循序漸進？會不會？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，我想水道的清淤、疏浚是每三年為一個週期，這一次的週期是2022到2024，所以它都是一個正常的疏浚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以是正常的疏浚，而且也不是切香腸，那表示什麼呢？表示還是有正常溝通的一個空間管道，是不是如此？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這要讓國人清楚，我們不希望國人每一次都是新聞報出來，覺得真恐怖，到底要戰爭了沒有？這個太恐怖了！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，不會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的政府應該有責任也有義務讓民眾安心，這個是非常重要的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：會，謝謝委員，我們今天就是一個說明，今天謝謝委員給我們這個機會做說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席也具體要求，戰略的溝通概念是對國內外揭露到底有沒有壓迫的情況，我們是不是應該要這麼做，讓人民能夠安心。"],["周副主任委員美伍：會，我們會加強溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以最後我要告訴主委，海保法本席也有提案……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們針對跟國際接軌的海洋保育目標跟海洋養護的措施，你當時擔任立法委員的時候，我相信你也非常關心這一塊，有助於確保國家的海洋權跟促進海洋的永續發展、永續保護，這個是我們務必要做的，我也希望在討論的時候能夠得到行政部門的支持及各位同仁的支持，讓我們可以跟國際接軌，好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們逐條的時候會聽取所有委員的指教，然後在整個審議與協商的過程之中，我的立場當然就是支持院版，但是在協商的過程之中會非常充分地討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的立場、共同目標就是怎麼讓我們的海洋能夠得到保護、能夠跟世界接軌，是不是這個原則？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很希望是這樣，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","下一位鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.36846875,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.50284375,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.699718750000002,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.69846875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.28909375,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.71034375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.718468750000003,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.079718750000005,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.38284375,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.399718750000005,"end":43.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.48409375,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.90596875,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.487218750000004,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.77784375,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.35096875000001,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.25346875,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.71909375,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.01784375000001,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.97034375000001,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.93159375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.95221875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.14909375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.16596875,"end":116.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.90721875000001,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.40846875000001,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.54096875000002,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.19909375,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.03846875000002,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.63159375,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.26784375,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.39659375000002,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.85221875000002,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.89846875,"end":174.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.98034375,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.21971875,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.11784375000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.06034375000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.06596875000002,"end":236.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.95596875,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.88409375,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":243.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.70596875,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.51159375,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.83159375000002,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.82284375,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.02534375000002,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.54846875,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.08409375000002,"end":254.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.44596875,"end":261.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.12409375000004,"end":268.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.15784375000004,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.46096875,"end":278.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.74784375,"end":272.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.40971875,"end":280.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.67909375,"end":281.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.05034375,"end":283.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.02909375,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.81346875,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.19659375000003,"end":296.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.47409375,"end":298.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.10659375,"end":307.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.61159375,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","s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主席,本席想邀請主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委。好,請管主委"},{"start":26.738,"end":32.081,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":44.668,"end":71.479,"text":"這個我們真的需要凍加的檢討但是這一次的情況我們了解到小船因為是CP艇然後這樣的一個追擊之下的那個浪的狀況所以海巡的人也非常的辛苦我們都知道所以在這樣的情況之下主委你也不斷的來對說就是說兩岸雙方的協商落幕呢是有期待的"},{"start":72.079,"end":76.995,"text":"但是經過這20天協商了15次結果目前的狀況"},{"start":78.832,"end":85.657,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":108.312,"end":108.792,"text":"主管機關單位說明,但是要說明之前"},{"start":131.297,"end":154.693,"text":"本教認為這樣子的協商破局你認為對兩岸關係是不是有影響是不是有影響會不會影響到兩岸的溝通對話空間更困難請說明各位委員報告因為這一次的事件我印象是在4月17號的時候開始我們就發現說這個過程本期我們大家都非常清楚本期要請問您政治結合的結果政治結合的結果"},{"start":161.318,"end":165.839,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":188.985,"end":190.426,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":213.528,"end":218.031,"text":"這一個溝通的對話空間是不是會有影響?我們很希望說這件事情還是能夠執法的各案的角度來面對然後如果把兩岸之間的政治的議題綁進來的時候確實對話上就會遇到很多卡卡的問題"},{"start":238.064,"end":265.1,"text":"所以這個你也說明了我請主管欣歡說這一次破局的主要原因是什麼來請做說明謝謝委員的關心我想我們經過這麼多次的這個溝通跟協商大家都很辛苦我想在這個過程當中主要的原因是什麼其實我沒有達成一些共識雙方都有在這個過程當中像我們對於整個是你認為不是破局我們現在都是各自把各自的旗艦帶回來他們帶回去我們帶回來"},{"start":267.682,"end":269.664,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":285.402,"end":310.86,"text":"當然我們希望繼續能夠有這個平台協商我們也透過各個可能的機構來協助我們不管是海基會、對方的海協會、紅十字會跟一些相關的單位都在做剛剛我們主委特別提到我們也希望能夠在最短的時間之內站在人道關懷的立場我們給家屬最多的照顧這是我們從一開始就沒有變的原則"},{"start":311.701,"end":316.383,"text":"換句話說我們仍舊期待溝通對話的空間是持續的接下來我們針對於落海裡的事件大家也都非常的關心到目前為止現在漁船進入領海的是不是成為常態"},{"start":333.59,"end":335.251,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":363.63,"end":372.146,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":375.233,"end":380.035,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":401.383,"end":423.269,"text":"最近傳出這個流五電航道的這個問題不管是各方政府各方所講的不知道是什麼答案也好但是問題是到底輕忽傳進去可行不可行我跟委員特別報告這個所公告的這個流五電的航道當初的主體對象就是客貨輪"},{"start":424.921,"end":424.941,"text":"請問署長﹗"},{"start":453.334,"end":481.686,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他是沒報備的,那麼是不是對岸有在切香腸,書菌漸進,會不會?我想他這個水稻的這個淤青啊,他是這個書菌啊,他是一個每3年一個週期,他這一次的週期是2022到2024,所以他都是一個正常的一個書菌。好,所以正常的書菌,而且也不是切香腸,那表示什麼呢?表示還是有正常的溝通。"},{"start":482.705,"end":482.885,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":503.846,"end":515.576,"text":"所以本屆具體要求戰略的溝通概念是對國內外介入到底有沒有壓迫的情況那麼我們是不是應該要這麼做讓人民能夠去安心"},{"start":516.021,"end":520.202,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案"},{"start":537.648,"end":541.01,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度"},{"start":554.177,"end":578.754,"text":"我們主條的時候會聽取所有委員的指教然後在整個的審議跟協商的過程之中我的立場我當然就是支持院辦但是在那協商的過程之中會非常充分的來討論我們的立場共同目標就是怎麼樣讓我們的海洋能夠得到保護能夠跟世界接軌是不是這個原則是我們很希望是這樣謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69034250628293bc092414015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6327cb1eca87a0d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:40:45 - 11:49:27","影片長度":"00:08:42","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":522,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:49:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:40:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1253,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時40分）謝謝主席，請管碧玲主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：昨天在答復陳玉珍委員質詢時提到大陸的清淤船進入了我們金門的劉五店航道，從早上陳建仁院長和您都說不可以、不允許……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不是說不可以，而是說……"],["王委員鴻薇：我先講完。然後陸委會說按照2015年公告，客貨運的船舶是被允許經過金門的禁限制海域進入廈門港，可是後來我們的海巡署又發新聞稿說，因為清淤船並不屬於客貨運，所以它還是不被允許的。我想請問一下，為什麼在一天之內會有這樣子不同的版本？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海巡署當天確實是有出去廣播驅離，為什麼海巡署會執行廣播驅離呢？就是因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：您答非所問，我的意思說你們不管是回答陳玉珍委員，或是到後來你們又發新聞稿，這中間為什麼會有這樣的差別？早上說不行，到了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的回答跟海巡署的新聞稿是一致的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以都認為不行？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我沒有兩個版本，對……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以陸委會有誤解？"],["管主任委員碧玲：今天陸委會沒有來。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是因為陸委會中間曾經說根據2015……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是這個公告陸委會沒有參加公告，這個公告是國防部、海巡署跟交通部門三方公告……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不包含陸委會？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，陸委會不在發表的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在陸委會意思是以你們海巡署的說法為準對不對？那我想請問一下，您剛剛也講因為這個公告包含了我們的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡、國防和交通。"],["王委員鴻薇：海巡、國防、交通……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我想請問一下，現在針對這2015年的公告，你們還承不承認呢？因為後來客貨運沒有在使用，而是清淤船……"],["管主任委員碧玲：2015年的公告都在執行中。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果是屬於客貨運的部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：都在執行中，我們最近都還有核准函、都還有核准，他一次申請就可以半年喔，所以我們最近都還有……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以今天在中國大陸方面如果是客貨運船經過申請，我們仍然按照2015年公告的辦法來實施？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，持續的，長期都是這個秩序。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，瞭解。那我想請問一下署長，清淤船的噸位有多大？像大陸的清淤船說有上萬噸。"],["周副主任委員美伍：它的噸位大概都是在三、五千，但是這一次的我不知道，它確實的噸位我不敢確定，我要跟委員報告的是……"],["王委員鴻薇：最大會到多少？會有上萬噸嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有一千多噸……"],["王委員鴻薇：這次進來的是一千多噸？"],["周副主任委員美伍：但是我們很少看到有到萬噸的這種船，大概都是……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以以我們的能力是足以驅離的？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一定驅離，跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：一定驅離，也有能力驅離？"],["周副主任委員美伍：可以驅離。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外再請教一下，署長或者主委回答都可以。昨天馬文君委員提出來，而且海巡署的副署長也有證實，就是有三艘大陸漁船進入我們領海6浬之內，這還不是禁限制海域，但這已經進入領海之內，問題在於我們說既然進入領海，其實這已經符合第一擊了，但是我們並沒有立刻強制驅離，海巡署副署長是說當天有全程監控，巡防艇也出去了，只是當天海浪達到七、八級，最高陣風到十級，所以已經超過我們的耐浪級數。可是你可以看到前兩天蔡總統的臉書特別講到臺灣造大船，特別提到我們海巡署一樣會造好幾艘大船，而且雲林艦跟台北艦都交船下水，它們大概都是四千噸的級數，所以我就想請教了，既然我們現在陸陸續續有這些大船可以做驅離，為什麼當大陸三艘漁船進入了我們的領海，我們卻只派出巡防艇，然後說因為耐浪級數不夠，於是就有點不了了之？人家也拍照了，還看到我們的風電大風車，所以我們驅離的標準到底是什麼？我們到底是有能力驅離，還是沒有能力驅離？是要做還是不要做？"],["周副主任委員美伍：報告委員，這都是我們日常的執法工作，只要有陸船越界進入到我們的12浬，我們一定是驅離，這沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：那像這個……"],["周副主任委員美伍：像今天這個狀況，剛剛委員所提到的狀況……"],["王委員鴻薇：都到6浬了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當天的海象是十級，這個背景資料先跟委員報告一下，通常像這種海象的時候，陸船都會靠近海岸，因為它要尋求更好的海象，所以它也是為了……"],["王委員鴻薇：安全。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，尤其是在澎湖……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們認為像這個case是安全起見？"],["周副主任委員美伍：像這種case，那天的風浪這麼大，我們一定是雷達全程監控，同時我們的船有部署在峽北、峽南、峽中，那個水域正好是我們臺中港海巡隊的一個管轄區域，臺中港管轄的區域正好在中間，當然那天中部分署長就直接派遣一百噸的先出去處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是指巡防艇一百噸？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：但一百噸根本就不可能驅離啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員報告，實際上我們有一個三千噸的宜蘭艦在海上，它在北邊，在新竹的外海。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我的發言時間到了。所以當海象風浪比較大的時候，我們就不會一定強制地去驅離，是這樣嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們會驅離，但是我們會視海象的狀況，像我們在七美，經常他們一來就是幾十艘在避風，在這種避風的狀況下，我們是在旁邊監控它，等到這一波的海象一過了之後……"],["王委員鴻薇：平緩之後。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，他們就會離開，如果沒有離開，我們的船就會進去驅離。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，今天我的時間比較短一點，但有一件事情我覺得很重要，就是這一次在金門海域的撞船事件發生之後，我們發現我們離島的海巡密錄器是嚴重裝置不足的。今天其實也是審預算，所以我在這邊要求，因為現在我看到你們的比率，北部分署、中部分署的密錄器看起來OK、超過百分之百，但是除此之外，各分署都是不足，離島更是嚴重不足。這個問題我就要請教主委了，主委可不可以承諾包含其他分署……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我先謝謝委員，這很重要，真的很感謝委員，我們的密錄器是夠的，但是因為現在的配比不是一人一支，而是一個勤務一支，我們未來要變成一人一支，所以要補3,000支。但是因為委員這一次的提醒，我們在記者會上知道了以後，我們立刻調撥，剛剛委員提到離島不足……"],["王委員鴻薇：已經調撥出去了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都全部調好了，全部調好了，可是其中有的卻百分之一百六十、百分之一百八十，所以我一直跟組長說要謝謝委員，經過委員的指導，我們立刻就調撥了，所以現在已經均勻。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，該調撥的就調撥、該補足的就補足，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，已經均勻了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位陳俊宇、陳俊宇、陳俊宇委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.10221875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.177218750000002,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.63846875,"end":44.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.874718750000003,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.49221875,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.96409375,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.50596875000001,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.27784375,"end":71.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.68221875,"end":77.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.27221875000001,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.88221875,"end":97.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.92346875000001,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.52221875000001,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.18846875000001,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.87596875000001,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.26409375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.38221875,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.46659375,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.01909375000001,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.06971875,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.89096875000001,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.26596875000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.15471875000001,"end":130.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.11659375,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.44346875000002,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.94096875,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.81659375,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.67284375,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.49846875,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.54034375,"end":170.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.68784375,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.41721875000002,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.59409375,"end":177.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.01159375,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":196.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.90346875,"end":195.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.13534375,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.84409375,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.82284375,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.82596875000002,"end":207.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.99846875,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.47096875000003,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.57221875000002,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":208.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.77471875,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.92659375000002,"end":210.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.39909375000002,"end":211.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.45784375000002,"end":211.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.99784375000002,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.04846875,"end":212.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.37721875000003,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.06846875000002,"end":220.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.43096875,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.98159375,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.44034375,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.85346875000002,"end":245.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.00096875000003,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.84409375,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.66659375,"end":264.917843750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昨天在答覆陳玉珍委員質詢就是大陸的輕屋船進入了我們金門的劉武殿航道那麼因為之前就是從早上我們的陳建仁院長還有您都說不可以不允許那麼後來陸委會我先講完然後到了陸委會"},{"start":33.155,"end":48.61,"text":"後來說按照2015年公告就是這個客貨運的船舶是被允許經過金門的限制禁限制海域進入廈門港可是呢後來我們的海巡署"},{"start":49.13,"end":64.123,"text":"有發新聞稿說因為青屋船並不屬於客貨運所以那麼他還是不被允許的那我想請問一下為什麼在一天之內會有這樣子不同的版本"},{"start":65.724,"end":77.519,"text":"跟委員報告海巡署當天確實是有出去廣播驅離那為什麼海巡署會執行廣播驅離呢答非所問我的意思是說你們回答不管是回答陳一正委員"},{"start":82.785,"end":86.006,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":99.673,"end":103.558,"text":"公告是國防部海巡署跟交通部門三方公告,不包含陸委會。"},{"start":116.274,"end":118.015,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告"},{"start":133.125,"end":135.407,"text":"現在在2015年的公告你們還承不承認呢因為後來也他們也沒有在客貨運沒有在使用是輕屋船如果是屬於客貨運的部分都在執行中都在執行中我們最近都還有核准函"},{"start":149.36,"end":151.821,"text":"總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":176.958,"end":194.097,"text":"請問一下這個青屋船的噸位有多大像大陸青屋船說有上萬噸他的噸位大概都是在三五千但是這一次的我不知道他確實的噸位我不敢確定那我要跟委員報告最大會到多少"},{"start":194.998,"end":198.3,"text":"會有上萬噸嗎?"},{"start":198.3,"end":207.987,"text":"這次進來的是一千多噸。我們很少看到有到萬噸的這種船,大概都是……所以在我們的能力是足以驅離的?"},{"start":207.987,"end":211.489,"text":"我們一定驅離。也有能力驅離?"},{"start":211.489,"end":218.213,"text":"可以驅離。另外再請教一下,署長或者主委,答都可以。"},{"start":221.502,"end":236.826,"text":"昨天馬文君委員提出海巡署副署長有證實有三艘大陸漁船進入領海6海浬之內這還不是淨限制海域這已經進入了領海之內問題是既然進入領海其實這已經符合第1級了"},{"start":251.501,"end":263.889,"text":"但是我們沒有做立刻的強制驅離海巡署副署長是說當天是有全程監控巡航艇也出去了只是當天浪"},{"start":265.871,"end":291.607,"text":"海浪達到7、8級最高陣風到10級所以已經超過我們的耐浪級數那麼可是你可以看到前兩天我們蔡總統的臉書特別講到臺灣照大船特別提到我們海巡署一樣的會照好幾艘的大船而且呢雲林艦跟台北艦都礁船下水4000噸他們大概都4000噸的那個級數"},{"start":293.968,"end":315.391,"text":"那所以我就想請教了既然我們現在有陸陸續續的這些大船可以做驅離那為什麼當大陸三艘漁船進入了我們的領海我們卻只派出行航艇然後說因為內浪極速不夠啊"},{"start":316.254,"end":319.075,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":341.846,"end":363.705,"text":"沒有問題,像今天這個狀況,剛剛委員所提到的狀況,當天的海象是10級,那通常,我要講這個背景資料先給委員報告一下,通常像這種海象的時候,陸船它都會靠近海岸,因為它要尋求更好的海象,所以它也是為了一個安全,對。"},{"start":365.066,"end":393.289,"text":"所以我們認為像這個case是安全起見像這種case那天的風浪這麼大我們一定是雷達全程監控那同時我們的船有部署在峽北、峽南、峽中那它那個水域正好是我們臺中港海巡隊的一個管轄區域那臺中港管轄的區域正好在中間那我們當然那天就直接中部分署長就派遣這個100噸的先出去"},{"start":394.21,"end":401.093,"text":"循環艇100噸,100噸根本不可能驅離但是我跟委員報告,實際上我們有一個3000噸的一段路在海上,在北邊,在西北的大海所以如果當海上風浪比較大的時候,我們就不會說一定強制的去驅離,是這樣嗎?我們會驅離,但是我們會試海上的狀況,像我們在七美經常他們一來就是幾十艘在避風"},{"start":421.541,"end":445.939,"text":"在避風的狀況下我們是在旁邊監控它等到這一波的海象一過了之後他們就會離開如果沒有離開我們的船就會進去驅離因為我時間比較短一點待會有件事情我覺得很重要就是我們在這一次的金門海域撞船事件發生之後我們發現我們離島的海巡密陸區是嚴重裝置不足的"},{"start":450.462,"end":450.782,"text":"主委可不可以承諾?"},{"start":471.463,"end":497.816,"text":"包含48本書．我先謝謝委員很重要真的很感謝委員我們密錄器是夠但是因為現在的配筆不是一人一支而是一個勤務一支所以我們未來要變成一人一支所以要補3000支但是因為委員的這一次的提醒我們在記者會上知道了以後我們立刻調播剛剛委員所提到離島不足"},{"start":498.816,"end":499.317,"text":"該調播的調播該補足的補足"}]}},{"id":"149809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903b6a8be15224f49cc14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a605479c7cef35606c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:29:55 - 11:40:29","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":634,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:40:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:29:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1168,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時29分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請管主委。"],["主席：好，請我們管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：管主委好。管主委，本席依照剛剛鄭天財委員的詢答，我們繼續來探究。海洋保育法，說實在話，其實是晚了3年，大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後，本來明定2年內海洋保育法就要出來，但直到2024年我們這次開議之前，行政院才通過海洋保育法版本，說實在話，本席也認為亡羊補牢猶未晚矣，重點是我們現在要趕快來做。第10屆沒有辦法做到的，其實政院版沒有送出來，第11屆加速辦理，但是我們更要看到的是這個草案出來之後，有沒有善盡完整的規劃。所以第一點想請教主委，剛剛鄭天財委員提到，針對海洋庇護區，我們有審議會要組成及設置，這規定在草案第七條裡，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前審議會是由專家學者、民間團體及有關機關代表組成，其中專家學者及民間團體代表不得少於委員總人數的二分之一，主要是想確保審議會的獨立性跟公正性。請問，有關機關的代表有哪一些？"],["管主任委員碧玲：要看，譬如像經濟部門會是，漁業部門鐵定一定是，原住民部門也鐵定一定是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是官方代表？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來在子法的修訂上會有一個機制，但是以庇護區的劃設來講，非常非常直接的就是交通部門，因為有船舶航行、航運；經濟部門有海事工程、能源；漁業的話，那當然是重中之重，原住民也一樣，所以這一些主管機關鐵定會是裡面的成員。"],["洪委員孟楷：審議會目前預計會有多少位委員？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前子法還沒有定，將來我們審母法的時候，也有可能會有附帶決議等等，這個到時候都尊重……"],["洪委員孟楷：那您現在預期呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現在還沒有預期我們的成員要多少人。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在沒有預期？你們是主管機關欸！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒錯。因為每一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，您過去立法經驗那麼豐富，其實應該很瞭解，這個才是重點啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為每一個庇護區的劃設，是要依據庇護區所涉及的用海單位相互之間的利用關係，上面的特質是要浮動型的，還是要固定型的，這些在子法討論過程中，我們都還要廣泛……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席比較直接詢問，包括剛剛鄭天財委員或是其他委員討論到的，為保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等，是不是應該把原住民身分的委員或任一性別委員的比例明定於法規裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，也確實……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要只是在立法理由裡面，因為你的立法理由裡面其實有寫到喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道，確實在討論的時候，這個也是一個爭點，也討論了很久……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們把它明定在法條裡面，您認不認同？"],["管主任委員碧玲：精神上我們絕對是遂行這樣的精神，但是法條內容當初就是有各方討論，譬如漁業是不是也要明定？這個時候就會有很多討論結果，最後法條就是這樣設，然後這樣處理。至於送到大院討論的時候，我作為海委會主委，提出了這樣的版本……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經千呼萬喚3年多的時間了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：也是行政院的院版，我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本，我就是站在這個版本的立場，但是廣泛的聽取委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你不認為應該增加明定於法條裡面嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後，最後會有協商的結論出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，再請教，是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則，並納入法律文字？譬如他可能是跟開發計畫有利益相關者，或是曾經參與開發計畫環境影響評估作業者？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是兩部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：即便也有人說這也要旋轉門條款，不要讓審議會到時候變成是某些開發對象的門神。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在子法的時候再來考量這些項目，好不好？謝謝委員提出這樣的課題……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想這都是非常重要，也是真真正正讓國人看到我們海洋保育的實際行動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：二個概念，一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方、利益相關的各方，但是個案來講，我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，感謝主委認同遵守利益迴避，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：領域一定要進來，譬如我這個產業別一定要進來，但是個案的當事人……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，請容本席提醒……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這個很感謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們海洋委員會，身為海洋保育法的主管機關，其重點還是在於保育，重點還是在於永續，重點還是在於讓我們的海洋資源源遠流長不斷，為我們這一代人跟下一代人做努力跟守護。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席覺得一個法令要棍子與蘿蔔並施，在你們的草案裡有取締違反海洋保育相關的行為，就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：罰多少錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們的 range處理的比較大的原因是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：range蠻大的，不是比較大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：來啦！我直接講，您不用翻法條，我都已經查清楚了，跟您說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這跟海污法一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：緩衝區是罰6萬到30萬，核心區是10萬到50萬，好像沒有所謂的累加、累計。第一，沒有所謂累加、累計，最後可能變成有人會是累犯。第二，只有罰鍰，沒有罰則、沒有刑責。所以我要問主委，你覺得這樣的嚇阻力夠不夠？"],["管主任委員碧玲：入刑是一個大問題，這個大議題我想恐怕是很大……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是要加強保育，為什麼？因為我們……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：有海洋庇護區出來之後，有緩衝區、有核心區，就一般人認知，所謂的核心區，應該就是絕對禁止從事相關的活動，這也是你們的立法精神，我現在要說的是，你的核心區罰鍰從10萬到50萬，第一來講，這個到底夠不夠嚇阻？譬如有一些利益的部分。再來第二，是不是應該增強嚇阻效果，甚至考慮刑責？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海上所有用海單位有很優越、優勢的群體，譬如很可能是能源產業，或者是海事工程產業，但也有比較弱勢的群體，譬如可能是漁業等等，所以我們的 range會比較大，會從比較微罪的類別來開始起跳，因為顧慮到不同群體在經濟上面的強弱勢差別……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委您這樣講本席比較沒有辦法認同，因為我們剛剛其實是從淺到深討論，第一，劃設保育區及劃設核心區、緩衝區是由審議會來決定，審議會本席就提醒你，你可以用公平、公正以及相關的委員來確認，所以審議會已經明白的確定什麼地方是緩衝區、什麼地方是核心區，確定之後，既然是通過審議會很公正的確定核心區，代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義，那就不應該再去。剛剛您指稱有優勢團體、有弱勢團體，好像是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體，本席也同意啊！本席的選區有很多漁民，但是既然我們要做弱勢團體的保護，核心區部分就應該好好的確認，如果核心區確認之後，那就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的保育工作，所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具……"],["管主任委員碧玲：讓我們更有 power，我瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，就是如果你們劃設出緩衝區、核心區，既然已經劃設出來，那個地方就應該是真真正正我們2,350萬人共同守護的核心區嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過跟委員報告，我們也會根據那個犯行，而不是說初犯就一定要從最低罰開始累計，我們會根據犯行，也會直接從……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然嘛！不然你也不會設一個 range，但本席也提到你們這個 range，第一，夠不夠？即便是核心區，從10萬到50萬，50萬夠不夠？這是第一個部分。第二個部分，如果到最後他還是持續的進入而沒有刑責的話，會不會也沒有嚇阻效用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席來做結論，主委，我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前好像還沒有草案的版本是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們不需要對立，我們還是站在同一陣線，我覺得在海洋保育這一方面……"],["管主任委員碧玲：很感謝、很感謝，這真的是超越黨派……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院以及行政部門相信都站在同一陣線，因為海洋是我們共同的資產……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們有50%的氧氣是來自於海洋。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席會提出相關的法案，本席也會提出我的版本……"],["管主任委員碧玲：到底要不要改重罰……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論，並且也希望海委會主委以及相關行政官員能尊重並且參考本席所提版本的立法精神以及我們的條文精神好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，我們都會……"],["洪委員孟楷：共同守護保育海洋，我們玩真的，不要玩假的可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們會說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：玩真的，不要玩假的可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這會拿出來已經都是很重要了……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就強力一點，玩真的，不要打假球好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前已經很有力了，今天也有很多委員說這樣漁民要怎麼辦？"],["洪委員孟楷：玩真的，不要打假球。"],["管主任委員碧玲：到時候我們好好來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是本席給海委會的期許和期待。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心、就是一個很強的power了。"],["洪委員孟楷：晚了3年，但是亡羊補牢猶未晚矣，玩真的，不要打假球。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，委員提醒的利益迴避的那個個案，我們很高興，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那就請採納本席的意見，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":2.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.07284375,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.79346875,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.06346875,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.727843750000005,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.86596875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.16096875,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.52159375000001,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.84159375,"end":78.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.19159375000001,"end":81.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.64159375,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.94096875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.99846875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.20284375000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.12221875,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.20471875,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.95096875000002,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.07409375,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.80784375000002,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.15534375000001,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":181.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":190.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.30596875,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.66409375,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.57096875000002,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.54971875,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.56346875000003,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.06971875000002,"end":213.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.30909375000002,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.51409375,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.36596875,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.11221875,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.40221875,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.00034375,"end":250.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.01721875,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.27034375000002,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.30409375000002,"end":250.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.55284375000002,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.32909375000003,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.84284375000004,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.27221875000004,"end":271.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.95971875000004,"end":269.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.07284375,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.43971875,"end":283.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.34534375000004,"end":288.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.61471875,"end":288.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.45846875,"end":291.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.01096875,"end":297.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.61784375,"end":295.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.54596875000004,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.40659375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.70596875,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.49909375000004,"end":300.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.56159375000004,"end":304.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.87346875000003,"end":313.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.59784375000004,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.23659375,"end":332.29971875},{"speaker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管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦 晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本"},{"start":35.134,"end":55.903,"text":"本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教"},{"start":57.263,"end":80.976,"text":"剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些"},{"start":82.24,"end":101.417,"text":"要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛"},{"start":103.039,"end":115.794,"text":"經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?"},{"start":118.097,"end":120.6,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案"},{"start":134.076,"end":138.898,"text":"您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦"},{"start":161.269,"end":175.448,"text":"包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面"},{"start":176.469,"end":200.324,"text":"跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂"},{"start":201.545,"end":213.029,"text":"好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版"},{"start":222.552,"end":247.161,"text":"我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是"},{"start":251.67,"end":270.896,"text":"即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的"},{"start":272.496,"end":287.767,"text":"實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的"},{"start":288.567,"end":291.33,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":314.671,"end":333.895,"text":"所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢"},{"start":334.915,"end":338.016,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":361.997,"end":390.097,"text":"只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動"},{"start":391.44,"end":394.743,"text":"這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬"},{"start":398.075,"end":421.313,"text":"第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業"},{"start":422.654,"end":424.095,"text":"主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為"},{"start":449.073,"end":470.844,"text":"我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區"},{"start":471.764,"end":481.337,"text":"那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您"},{"start":483.665,"end":507.567,"text":"指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛"},{"start":508.107,"end":523.372,"text":"所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛"},{"start":523.712,"end":526.954,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"},{"start":553.792,"end":573.528,"text":"主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出"},{"start":575.97,"end":600.102,"text":"本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?"},{"start":602.955,"end":615.402,"text":"提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。"},{"start":630.012,"end":630.273,"text":"請採納本席的意見。"}]}},{"id":"149808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903deba942f8fbb53d514015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a61563234e73618c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:21:45 - 11:29:43","影片長度":"00:07:58","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":478,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:29:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:21:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1151,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時21分）主席、各位委員，有請主任委員。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好，這個行政院版的海洋保育法對原住民族的權益會影響非常、非常的大，而行政院版的海洋保育法只有第八條規定，第一項海洋庇護區保育計畫之擬訂，涉及原住民族土地及海域者，中央主管機關應依原住民族基本法的規定辦理，已經是屬於計畫的擬訂，庇護區的劃設或是緩衝區還是什麼核心區、保護區的劃設，都沒有規定，已經是計畫的擬訂。","我們看原住民族基本法第十九條，採集野生植物，野生植物是包含海裡面的野生植物，這是原基法第十九條的一個保障的規定，因為傳統文化、祭儀自用這個部分；然後原基法第二十條規定，政府承認原住民族自然資源的權利；海洋基本法也規定得很明確，你都沒有提到海洋基本法，海洋基本法規定，政府應建立合宜機制，尊重、維護、保存傳統用海智慧等海洋文化資產，保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及權益，這是海洋基本法第十條所明定的，也應該要在海洋保育法裡面去落實，但這個部分沒有規定；海洋基本法第十三條也規定，保障原有海域使用者權益，這個部分也一樣沒有落實在海洋保育法相關的條文裡面；根據國土計畫法，國土計畫包含陸域及海域，國土計畫法規定，全國國土計畫中特定區域之內容，如涉及原住民族土地及海域者，應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理，並由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關擬訂；國土計畫法第二十三條規定，涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制者，應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理，並由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族機關擬訂。結果海洋保育法對於庇護區、緩衝區、保護區的諸多管制，都沒有提到。濕地保育法規定，涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時，核定前應與當地原住民族諮商，並取得其同意；海岸管理法第十條規定，海岸保護區或海岸防護區之劃設，劃設的時候，就如同庇護區的劃設、海洋保護區的劃設，涉及原住民族地區，各級主管機關應會商原住民族委員會擬訂。","我要談的是什麼？之前海岸管理法、濕地管理法、國土計畫法都是立法院三讀通過的法律，都會因為原住民族基本法的規定去修訂，現在我們要制定海洋保育法，同時海洋基本法也規定得很清楚，但是只有計畫擬訂的時候，對於劃設海洋庇護區、海洋保護區或是緩衝區，我愛怎麼劃就怎麼劃，不管你原住民族原有的海域。所以這個部分需要好好的去檢視。主委，我後面還有條文沒有放完，最主要就是說，相關的規定真的是欠缺，所以我不知道在草擬這個草案的時候，相關機關的意見、原住民族的意見或漁民的意見有沒有被考量？看起來是沒有被考量。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這些過程都有很多的討論，最後選擇的這個機制分成二個層次，就是把原住民諮商同意放在計畫的部分，它可以進入更細節，細節是最重要的，前面的部分是用審議會的方式就進來了，所以到底是要審議會也諮商同意，然後計畫也諮商同意，還是說審議會諮商同意，然後計畫的時候不用諮商同意，還是說現在這樣，審議會大家都進來，要有共識才會成形，然後計畫的細節最關鍵的部分用諮商同意，最後的討論是用這個機制。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，我就舉你們行政院版第十條為例，海洋庇護區之緩衝區內，非經主管機關許可，禁止從事下列行為，這裡面就包含了採捕海洋生物，所以這個我們就會變成完全被排除。"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，這個也要審議會通過。對，委員，這一條裡面講的排除，就是所謂的禁限制行為，而禁限制行為也是需要遂行審議會機制，所以原住民相關的代表也一定都會進來，要有共識，才有可能成形。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，我……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以當時是這樣想的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還是要明定在條文裡面，當然我有提出我的版本……"],["管主任委員碧玲：瞭解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：到時候請海洋委員會能夠採納本席的條文，以上。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位洪孟楷委員。好，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.87471875,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.72096875,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.07409375,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.37284375,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":33.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.30409375,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.463468750000004,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.59721875,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.938468750000006,"end":54.149093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.30096875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.53659375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.46471875,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.85659375,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.71221875,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.34846875000001,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":78.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.76971875000001,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.67534375000001,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.83096875000001,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.75909375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.32846875,"end":98.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.30659375,"end":101.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.55096875000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.60096875,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.07659375,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.80534375,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.89284375000001,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.47784375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.90721875,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.57346875000002,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.84284375000001,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.81721875000002,"end":153.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.08284375000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.61409375000002,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.63846875000002,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.90784375,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.82284375,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.18784375,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.71909375,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.67596875,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.27909375000002,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.50221875000003,"end":197.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.71721875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.54346875000002,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.65659375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.59721875000002,"end":211.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.53784375,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.92971875,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.87471875000003,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.72659375,"end":229.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.00346875000002,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.77534375000002,"end":232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.27721875,"end":233.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.66909375,"end":238.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.89221875,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.78659375,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.65534375000001,"end":243.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.47784375,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.71784375000001,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.91596875000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.19409375,"end"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化資產保障與傳承原住民族傳統用海文化及權益"},{"start":128.07,"end":151.318,"text":"這是海洋基本法第10條所明定的也應該要在海洋保育法裡面要去落實所以這個部分沒有規定然後海洋基本法第13條也規定保障原有海域者使用者權益所以這個部分也是一樣沒有落實在海洋保育法相關的條文裡面國土計劃法國土計劃什麼是國土計劃"},{"start":156.67,"end":181.622,"text":"包含陸域及海域海域海域包括海域我看國土計劃要怎麼規定全國國土計劃中特定期之內容如涉及原住民族土地及海域者因依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理並由中央主管計劃會同中央原住民族主管計劃擬定國土計劃第23條"},{"start":186.815,"end":213.812,"text":"涉及原住民族土地及海域之使用管制使用管制使用管制因依原住民族基金法第21條規定辦理並由中央主管局會同中央原住民族局官擬定所以這裏面海洋保育法對於庇護期對於緩衝期對於保護期都有很多的管制結果都沒有提到"},{"start":217.087,"end":242.612,"text":"私地保育法涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時合訂前應以當地原住民族諮商並取得其同意海岸管理法第10條海岸保護漆或海岸防護漆之劃設劃設的時候"},{"start":245.803,"end":270.544,"text":"就如同屁股期的發射海洋保護期的發射屁股期的發射涉及原住民族地區各級主管機關應會商原住民族委員會擬定我要談的是什麼呢這個之前海洋管理法、濕地管理法、國土計劃法"},{"start":272.461,"end":297.797,"text":"之前都是立法院三讀通過的法例都會因為原住民族基本法的規定然後去訂了這些然後我們現在訂這個要制定海洋保育法然後海洋基本法也規定得很清楚但是只有計劃的擬定的時候對於畫設"},{"start":299.929,"end":328.329,"text":"庇護區海洋庇護區海洋保護區或是緩衝區這些好幾個區畫設的時候我愛畫怎麼畫不管你原住民族原有的海域所以這個部分是需要去好好的去檢視所以這個部分這個主委我後面還有條文我還沒有還沒有把它放完"},{"start":329.502,"end":352.345,"text":"最主要就是說這個整個我們相關的這些規定真的是欠缺所以這個部分我不知道我不知道在炒你這個草案的時候相關機關的意見原住民族的意見"},{"start":353.749,"end":361.186,"text":"或者是移民的意見移民的意見有沒有去被考量看起來是沒有被考量"},{"start":362.146,"end":388.58,"text":"跟委員報告這些過程都有很多的討論那最後選擇的這個機制是分成兩個層次就是把原住民諮商同意放在這個計劃的部分他可以進入更細節那細節是最重要的那個細節是最重要那前面的部分是用審議會的方式就進來了所以"},{"start":390.261,"end":414.772,"text":"到底是要審議會也諮商同意然後計劃也諮商同意還是說審議會諮商同意然後計劃的時候不用諮商同意還是說現在這樣審議會的時候大家進來要有共識才會成行然後計劃的細節最關鍵的這個部分用諮商同意那最後的討論是用這個機制主委我就擠這個"},{"start":418.404,"end":439.631,"text":"行政院版第10條海洋聘務期資緩衝期內非經主管機關席個禁止從事下列行為這裏面就是包含了財普海洋生物所以我們就變成這個我們就完全就被說沒有這個也要審議會通過"},{"start":441.632,"end":468.052,"text":"對委員這一條裡面講的排除就是所謂的禁限制行為那禁限制行為也是需要遂行審議會的機制所以也一定會原住民相關都會進來要有共識才有可能會成行各位主委我還是要明定在條文裡面當然我有提出我的版本了到時候請海洋委員會"},{"start":469.738,"end":471.901,"text":"能採納本席條文。"}]}},{"id":"149807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903eca8969ac4cd2203b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6e54a6599b840bfc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:59:30 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12:10:58","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":688,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:10:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:59:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1259,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時59分）主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。主計長，你今天上午在受訪還有答詢委員時，你提到了一些，我還以為你現在就要走了、馬上就要走了……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有就要走了。"],["王委員世堅：你是說你不會那麼丟……我後來看了逐字稿才發現，喔，不是！你是說你不會那麼丟臉，主動表態留任？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員世堅：那我現在就跟你講，你也不能丟臉，說走就走，不是這樣嗎？你要為國珍重啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：說走是我的決定，人家要不要留任是人家的，我不必去……"],["王委員世堅：對，要負責任到最後1分鐘，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，5月19號晚上12點。"],["王委員世堅：關於昨天你公布的一些數字，我們現在不論是在薪資所得的差距、收入的差距或者經濟成長方面、通貨膨脹方面確實有一些狀況，我以為你公布這些糟糕的狀況，是不是就要趕快跑掉，你還是要留下來負責任，至少這兩個月是「做一天和尚，敲一天鐘」。我請教你一下，在你可以掌管的2兆8,000億這麼多的預算裡面，其實你就是國家的帳房，不是嗎？事實上，既然你是國家的帳房，你也預見到，從你們調查到的一些數字顯示，我們可能會碰到一些通貨膨脹、一些經濟成長方面碰到的問題，那你有沒有對各部會提出警語？你怎麼可以任由他們愛編多少就編多少？不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，沒有。跟委員報告一下，我們這些報告，都是在發表之前就有通知各部會說會這個樣子，請各部會要採行……"],["王委員世堅：發表報告之前就有通知？"],["朱主計長澤民：就有說我們……"],["王委員世堅：在這個報告裡面是沒有。你把你有通知哪幾次的內容彙整給我，好不好？你有沒有告知各部會？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們都公布在網站上，各部會應該瞭解，我們在要發布之前，都有跟總統、副總統、院長、副院長簡單的說明。"],["王委員世堅：2月份物價指數疾速上升，漲到3.08%，這已經達到通貨膨脹的標準，你很清楚嘛，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為今年的過年是在2月，去年過年是在1月，所以去年2月的基數比較低。因為我們的物價都是跟去年同一個月份比較，而去年的基數比較低，漲幅就會比較大。"],["王委員世堅：這個部分你說明得很清楚，我知道。但是這確實是一個很大的警訊，不是嗎？更何況2月是過年沒錯，可是再來4月是最傷腦筋的部分，2月都這樣，只是因為過年，物價就這樣，導致通貨膨脹，那每年過年都會通貨膨脹囉？再來4月電價要大幅上漲的話……"],["朱主計長澤民：如果跟上一年過年的月份也一樣，就不會有3.08%的現象。"],["王委員世堅：並不是碰到一個年節物價就會漲成這個樣子，那是季節性的，現在看到的不一樣，我們有潛在的通貨膨脹危機。我相信你很清楚，我就跟你講，4月份電價要上漲，但是電價又不得不上漲，那怎麼辦？主計長，這個部分要多花點心思。4月還在你任期內嗎？不是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我有提出一些數據分析給相關部會。我必須跟委員報告一下，主計總處只是把數字呈現出來，我不能因為這個數字去說你們該怎麼做，因為政策是由各部會來決定。"],["王委員世堅：這樣子啊？依這個數字發出這個警語，我看最不聽話的是數發部吧？都已經有這麼多的狀況，他還用那麼高的租金去租那麼豪華的大樓，連租金、裝潢花了三億六，針對這個東西，你何止要發出警語，你應該當面跟他說這是不對的，要反對他編列才對，不是這樣嗎？可是你不但讓他列上去，還通過。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，他們有請國有財產署提供，但是國有財產署也都提列不出來，就是沒有辦法在臺北找到適當的位置……"],["王委員世堅：提列不出來？提列不出那麼好的可以供他們去享用就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為在臺北市中心要找出適當的空間並不容易。"],["王委員世堅：我很感謝你把很多資料詳實統計。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：比方說，實質總薪資這個部分，你有實質去考量物價通膨的部分，這部分確實是負成長，而且現在上班族遇到的最傷腦筋的問題就是工時越來越長，所得薪資越來越低，而且貧富差距也是創下這十年來的最高。根據你的數字，前20%和後20%差了6.15倍，這些都是狀況，都是問題，你有預見到是很好。你也提到我們的GDP花在員工薪資的部分已經下降到43.3%，這些部分你提供的數字都很詳盡，但是相對應的，我相信，以你這四十年來的公職生涯，你應該有很多好的具體看法，至少對各部會發出警語，至少約束他們經常性預算的增加，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我的公職生涯在主計總處的話，到5月19日才有8年，以前我在健保局服務，更早以前我是在學校教書，並沒有在公家機關很久。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：那你在健保局的時間也不算公職生涯就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我那個時候是借調。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：那不算公職嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。是借調。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好。你學有專精，以你這八年來對政府的瞭解，你應該提出很多警語與很多建言，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我們都有一些資料，我都如實表達，沒有去美化這個數字，而我在任這幾年，就是要讓每一個首長花錢要合法化，且要經過大院同意。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：時間暫停。主計長請回。我再用兩分鐘問一下審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：審計長，改善所得分配其實是刻不容緩，我知道政府這八年來長時期都在做，經濟部也有提出他們的幾項政策，我就是想讓你簡短答復，以你的觀察，你的監督，你認為經濟部過去針對改善所得分配所提出的政策成效如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：從主計總處的統計來看，貧富差距是擴大的，主要就是因為現在科技的問題，有的收入很高，有的收入很低，大部分都很低，有這樣的情形，就是青年有低薪的問題，剛剛委員也顯示出來實質薪資有下降，所以開始產生貧富不均，針對這個部分，我們審計部在113年會通盤瞭解，包括委員所提的經濟的部分，委員也有指出，薪資的貢獻都降下來了，所以我們會來努力。"],["王委員世堅：審計部對公務員、對各部會、對公家機關，有實質的監督及考核，立委看到預算的時候，沒有辦法看到每一個層面，比方我們只能監督財政部、金管會這些，想監督其他部會會變成力有未逮，但是審計部握有審計權，也可以透過監察院糾正，有這樣子的權利，所以我相信你們講話各部會更能夠聽進去，更信得過你。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是的。"],["王委員世堅：立法院因為職掌的關係，對預算的審核，檢討他們的政策成效如何，我們的檢討力可能不如你們，所以這一點我必須特別要求你，也算是拜託你們，應該要做這些政策，實質去審查，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員的鼓勵，我們會來努力。謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接著請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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投表報告之前就有通知就有說說 我們在這一份報告裡面是沒有通知 你把你有通知的你通知哪幾次你會整給我好不好你有沒有告知各部會 對 各部我們都公布在網站上各部會應該了解我們都有跟在要發布之前我們有跟總統副總統院長"},{"start":173.445,"end":173.886,"text":"因為去今年的過年是在二月"},{"start":194.445,"end":213,"text":"所以去年的過年是在一月所以說去年的二月的基數比較低因為我們的物價都是跟上個月去年的同一個月份比較所以去年的基數比較低所以就會比較高這部分你說明得很清楚我知道啦但是這確實是個大的警訊不是嗎"},{"start":215.141,"end":241.038,"text":"更何況二月是過年沒錯可是再來四月是最傷腦筋的部分二月都這樣只是因為一個過年物價就這樣導致通貨膨脹那每年過年都會通貨膨脹囉再來四月電價要大幅上漲的話如果跟上一年的過年的月份也是一樣的話就不會說是有3.08的現象"},{"start":244.653,"end":268.154,"text":"那個並不是說碰到個年節那物價就會漲成這個樣子啊那是季節性的現在看到的欸不一樣現在看到的我們有潛在的通貨膨脹的危機我相信你很清楚我就跟你講四月份電價要上漲但是電價又不得不上漲那怎麼辦我想"},{"start":269.855,"end":299.075,"text":"主計總這一個部分你要多花點心思啦4月還在你任期內嘛不是嗎?對 我有提出一些數據分析給那個相關的部會我必須跟委員報告一下我主計總處只是把數字呈現出來我不能因為這個數字去說你們該怎麼做因為政策是由各部會來決定這樣子啊 這個數字發出這個警語雖然不聽話我看數法不吧"},{"start":300.715,"end":315.661,"text":"都已經有這麼多的狀況他還在那邊用那麼高的租金去租那麼豪華的大樓那總共總花了連租金連莊王花了3億6這個東西你何止僅餘你應該當面跟他講說你這是不對的"},{"start":325.543,"end":350.024,"text":"要反對他編列才對,不是這樣嗎?可是我發文下他們有請國有財產署提供一些但是國有財產署也都提列不出來就是沒有辦法找到提列不出那麼好的適當的位置供他們去享用就對了因為在台北市中心要找出適當的空間並不可能我很感謝你把很多"},{"start":351.092,"end":365.957,"text":"指標你確實是很詳實技術啦。比如說實質的總薪資這個部分你有加入實質有去考量這個物價通膨的部分那這個是確實是負成長而且這個"},{"start":368.338,"end":397.137,"text":"現在我們上班族遇到這三老金的問題我們的工時越來越長那麼所得薪資越來越低而且貧富差距也是創下這10年來的最高根據你的數字前20後20差了6.15倍那這些都是狀況都是問題你有預見到是很好那你也提到那個我們有高達"},{"start":397.978,"end":414.48,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":414.58,"end":436.122,"text":"但是相對應的我相信以你這40年來的公職生涯你應該有很多好的具體的看法至少對各部會發出警語至少約束他們經常性預算的增加不是這樣嗎跟著我的公職生涯在就"},{"start":436.69,"end":454.803,"text":"就在主計總處來的話到5月19號才8年了那以前在健保局服務以前我是在學校教並沒有在公家機關很久謝謝那你在健保局的也不算公職生涯就對了對我那個時候是借調謝謝"},{"start":456.707,"end":482.726,"text":"那不算工資嗎?建保局?對,是借調,謝謝。好,那至少你這八年以你學友專精你這八年來你對我們市政府的瞭解那你應該提出很多警語、很多建言,不是這樣?對,我們都有一些資料而且我都如實的表達沒有去美化這個數字而且我的認定"},{"start":483.722,"end":494.693,"text":"在這幾年我就是要讓首長每一個首長他們花錢要合法化而且要經過大院同意謝謝好時間暫停那主計長你請回我在兩分鐘問一下我們的審計長委員好"},{"start":509.492,"end":530.145,"text":"市長對於改善所得分配這其實是刻不容緩我知道政府這8年來長時期都在做經濟部也有提出他們的幾項政策那我就是想讓你簡短的答覆說你認為啦以你的觀察你的監督你認為經濟部過去關於"},{"start":536.018,"end":542.241,"text":"要這個改善所得分配他們提出的這些政策你認為成效如何?"},{"start":543.581,"end":567.978,"text":"因為從主計總處的統計裡面他是擴大的啊再主要就是因為這些現在的因為科技上的一個問題啊有的很高啊有的很低啊大部分都很低啊有這樣的一個情形就是今年有青年有低薪的問題啊這個剛剛委員也顯示出來實足薪資也下降啊所以這個等個"},{"start":569.159,"end":582.529,"text":"頻率就開始產生不均 這個部分我們審計部113年會通盤近期瞭解包括委員所提的經濟部的部分我們因為"},{"start":583.592,"end":600.555,"text":"議員．"},{"start":601.556,"end":622.754,"text":"那個公務員對我們各部會我們公家機關你特別有這個這樣子的實質的監督的考核我們立委在看到預算的時候沒辦法看到每一個層面那麼多我們比方說我們在這個我們只能監督財政部金管會這些"},{"start":624.136,"end":633.25,"text":"其他部位也會變成這個力有畏膽但是審計部你握有這個審計權你也可以"},{"start":634.858,"end":661.585,"text":"透過檢察院有糾舉有糾正這樣子的權利所以我相信你們講話各部會更能夠聽進去啦國家給你信到就對了我們立法院這個我們的執掌關係那我們這樣子對預算的審核對他們政策成效的如何我們檢討率可能不如你們"},{"start":662.285,"end":676.41,"text":"所以這一點我必須要特別要求你也算是拜託你們應該要對這一些政策實質下去做審查好不好好謝謝委員的鼓勵我們會來努力謝謝好謝謝來謝謝謝謝王委員喔接著我們請謝一鳳委員"}]}},{"id":"149806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69030417f7138f9937dc33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a607257f5fd76a241a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:04:41 - 12:10:17","影片長度":"00:05:36","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":336,"end_time":"2024-03-13T12:10:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T12:04:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時4分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：本席是民眾黨幹事長吳春城，民眾黨的兩個目標就是除弊和興利，所以剛才我們的總召黃國昌砲火猛烈，就是為了除弊，而本席要和部長提的是興利的問題，所以部長不要太緊張。因為本席非常關注高齡化社會的議題，所以要請部長思考，當長壽時代來臨，經濟部的角色是什麼？因為本席發現各部會都沒有準備好迎接長壽時代，所以本席今天要和部長討論的是，如何讓扶養比的分子變分母。","經濟部一定很關注扶養比的問題，請問部長，分子就是被扶養的人，分母就是工作人口，因為少子化，所以工作人口越來越少，分母也就越來越小，而因為高齡化，所以分子越來越大。是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["吳委員春城：目前是四比一，四個人扶養一個人，到2041年會變成二比一，負擔非常沈重，接下來會是一比一，這樣一直發展下去，分子會大於分母，到時候就是崩潰的時代，臺灣整個要崩潰了。請問部長，這個問題有什麼解套的方法？現在我們為這件事情做了什麼準備？"],["王部長美花：這確實是一個大議題，很多東亞國家也面臨這樣的嚴重議題，政府確實應該從很多方向解決這個問題。"],["吳委員春城：部長也同意這是一個很嚴重的問題，但是看起來政府並沒有什麼好方法。本席要和大家分享，這次本席到立院要提的就是壯世代，有一個方法，就是讓分子壯起來，把分子拉下來當分母。我們現在有一個很大的問題，就是未來高壽的人會占人口的一半，但是現在政府都弱化他們，而且你們也沒有辦法提高生育率，因為少子化，有一天分子一定會大於分母，整個臺灣就會崩潰。","本席知道，其實經濟部也有注意到這個問題，所以也在鼓勵高齡就業，就是藉由中小企業發展條例第三十六條，鼓勵企業提高僱用中高齡及高齡者的比例。本席要請問部長，這個條例的立意當然很好，但本席覺得沒有切中重點，因為這個辦法是鼓勵、獎勵僱用45歲以上的員工，就能有租稅優惠150%。但是請部長看一下這張圖，45歲到49歲，臺灣的勞參率有85%，其實和各國沒有太大差異，50歲到54歲之間是76.3%，也沒有太大的差異。","我們真的開始落後各國的是55歲以上的部分，我們只剩下59%，60歲以上是39%，65歲以上只有9.6%。所以如果按照你們這個辦法，企業都是聘用45歲的，沒有人要聘用55歲、65歲的人，這樣根本就沒有解決問題。本席在這裡建議，因為本席知道經濟部有提出這方面的政策，就是除了45歲以上有租稅優惠外，其他年齡段也要有等距的優惠，這樣才能更加獎勵企業。","目前經濟部的版本是增加僱用45歲以上的，可以有租稅優惠150%，可不可以再增加？例如僱用65歲以上的，租稅優惠可以到250%，因為我們這個問題太嚴重了。65歲以上的勞參率，韓國有百分之三十點多，我們只有百分之九點多，如果按照你們現在的辦法，這個問題是無法解決的。這一點部長是否可以接受？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。我們的草案現在還在徵詢意見當中，委員這個意見，我們會回去檢討一下。"],["吳委員春城：好的。部長可以考慮嗎？"],["王部長美花：是的，我們可以檢討一下。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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委員好"},{"start":28.047,"end":57.71,"text":"部長好其實國家發展綠能我們都很支持那如果說在特定的任務下面從我們經濟部有實質控制的公司去成立一支公司協助推動國家的政策這個方向我其實公開說過很多次我是支持的但在國營事業用這些人的時候有一個重點那個重點是用人為財我們用專業的可以做事的"},{"start":58.294,"end":84.44,"text":"而不是拿國營事業來進行政治酬庸。這樣子的觀念,部長你認同吧?我贊成,是。你認同吧?是。好。但我就看不懂,台研立了這家公司成立了以後本來百分之百是台研的吧?接下來用人實際上面的狀況包括了第一任的董事長陳啟運"},{"start":86.517,"end":112.471,"text":"您在上一屆國會的說相關的案件你們已經已給剪掉了是到接下來任用了吳永輝、嘉義縣的前副縣長那這個到底是用人為財還是在醜用我相信社會有一把尺但我現在更關心的是什麼我更關心的事情是我們為了推動公共政策"},{"start":114.104,"end":124.631,"text":"為執行國家的政策好不容易成立了一家公司有沒有被特定的派系或是權貴把持的現象我接下來秀這張圖給部長看"},{"start":126.96,"end":152.312,"text":"去年部長在回答臺灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員的質詢的時候您說到您幫現任臺研的總經理吳博新你幫他說我幫他澄清說他沒有在立洋下面任職過我相關的新聞跟新聞稿我全部都看過你說的沒有錯但大家在質疑的是什麼大家在質疑的是他是憑什麼憑什麼對這個業務"},{"start":156.17,"end":178.267,"text":"這不懂：也不熟：可以做到台研綠能的總經理大家找了半天：原來發現他是我們綠洋集團英企的綠洋集團包括了小谷、谷聖輝包括了陳文宏他們所把持集團的下包商現在做到了台研綠能的總經理"},{"start":179.756,"end":197.148,"text":"結果他當總經理以後啊總經理裡面的特助任用的是誰啊任用的就是陳文宏的兄弟啊陳文榮啊他的陳家麗陽集團的啊已經正式入駐了台言綠能啊這件事情部長您清楚嗎"},{"start":200.295,"end":205.638,"text":"那這樣的狀況您了解了嗎?您覺得應該要繼續容忍下去嗎?我們先不講吳國欽的部分啦剛剛我還沒有提到吳國欽現在我要跟你focus"},{"start":225.908,"end":243.857,"text":"是立洋集團的小谷跟陳文宏還有吳國興的關係我還沒有提到吳國興立洋集團的小谷陳文宏吳國興結果吳國興進去了以後總經理是帶的是誰帶的是陳文宏的兄弟我只請教你說這樣的狀況您了解不了解"},{"start":244.946,"end":251.789,"text":"因為我就是看到委員這個圖因為這個的可危跟那個可危不一樣委員這兩個是不同的可危我知道我現在就沒有提到吳國欽嘛我從頭到尾剛好跟你提到吳國欽三個字嘛至於委員在講之前的這個相關的這個股東的部分那委員也知道我們也送檢調來瞭解這個狀況了"},{"start":267.708,"end":278.674,"text":"我剛也說了嘛你把陳秦日壽剪掉這個我都OK啦但我只希望你針對問題回答我現在最具體的一件事情你知不知道台研綠能去年虧了多少錢是有虧損你知不知道虧了多少錢因為他的虧損是因為他的工程費還沒有拿到這個我們一樣一樣來嘛你知不知道他虧了多少錢"},{"start":293.977,"end":322.686,"text":"因為他是下面的下面沒有關係啦我會問問題的話我資料一定都找好了到今年2月底到今年2月底他的股東權益只剩下1億6千多萬本來是3億多嘛真知道3億多嘛所以為什麼前兩天發重訊虧損已經達到10收資本額的二分之一"},{"start":324.446,"end":344.075,"text":"為什麼虧損會達到10週資本額的二分之一因為去年一年虧了2.7億那時候的總經理是誰就是不願用專業的人搞權貴派系酬庸搞出來立洋集團的下下包商吳柏鑫"},{"start":345.478,"end":346.099,"text":"應該是走了將近有60幾位"},{"start":368.838,"end":391.123,"text":"編制了多少人?編制大概一百多位,不過他就有些壞,因為他的工程在承包完那個台尼嘉慶的案子以後,暫時還沒有新的案子進來。台尼嘉慶的案子齁,我已經都掌握。呆帳提列多少?人家為什麼不付錢?我們下次質詢的時候,我會繼續問。因為主席站起來啊,我要尊重主席的才智。請部長。"},{"start":392.003,"end":415.529,"text":"拜託市長回去幫忙了解以後我們下一次在詢答的時候內容可以更實質一點這樣可以嗎不過我真的要跟委員講吳國欽跟委員講的那個可危完全沒關是另外一個可危這個完全對他太不公平了我就跟你說我還沒有提到吳國欽這個人嘛我是要跟委員說委員你可能要先回去澄清一下沒有關係啦我們繼續講繼續針對實質的問題回答的時候再麻煩部長先回去準備好"},{"start":421.692,"end":425.246,"text":"這樣可以嗎?好,謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"149804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e3bb8be7dd82b355b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:46:55 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11:59:19","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":744,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:59:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:46:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1173,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時47分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你好。你在這個位置擔任很久了，可以說是一夫當關，萬夫莫敵，一個人擋在那邊……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！我是在這邊服務委員的。"],["羅委員明才：主計長做了很多的事情，我想請教一下10年前臺灣的貧富差距大概是多少？到了今天臺灣的貧富差距又是多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：如果分為五等分，10年前最高的時候是6.3到6.4之間，而目前是6.15，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：所以你的意思是說貧富差距變少了？"],["朱主計長澤民：最近幾年是稍微有提高一點，但是跟前面您講的10年前還是稍微有下降。"],["羅委員明才：你講的這個數據，你自己講得很開心……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們可以把資料拿來看，我可以把那個圖給委員看。"],["羅委員明才：主計長有可能即將離去喔！離去的時候……"],["朱主計長澤民：你想詛咒我啊！"],["主席：即將離去！"],["羅委員明才：你要跟拜登一樣連任，要繼續再擔任主計長？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不會啦！我不會啦！我的任期，我的派令是蔡總統發的，他5月19號離開，我也是5月19號離開。"],["羅委員明才：我想民調數據可能也會說話啦！主計長在一般民眾的心裡會覺得是應該要做一點事情的，是應該要把環境改善好的，是應該對於社會上的一些弱勢負責，針對一些「富者越富，貧者越貧」的情況，要做點事把它拉近。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下……"],["羅委員明才：應該讓所有的年輕人感到未來是充滿希望的，本席在這裡……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們這幾年社會福利的支出已經提高到占總預算大概百分之二十六點幾，大部分支出都用在社會福利上。"],["羅委員明才：你可以說，但是年輕人會覺得不滿足啊！你想想看一顆茶葉蛋，請問一下現在茶葉蛋一顆多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：價格不一樣啦！你問的我有準備啦！"],["羅委員明才：你隨便講一個7-ELEVEN的價格。"],["朱主計長澤民：茶葉蛋在全家、萊爾富、OK一顆13塊啦！7-ELEVEN還是10塊，18塊的是所長蛋啦！"],["羅委員明才：所長蛋還有一顆19塊的。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不會再被你騙了。"],["羅委員明才：你去查了很清楚，所以你更應該要瞭解到年輕人一般民眾心裡的痛苦，以前我們去吃一個蛋，一個蛋才5塊啊！現在吃一個蛋要十幾塊，主計長還這樣笑嘻嘻的，其實我心裡是覺得蠻難過的，因為我們常講……"],["朱主計長澤民：7-ELEVEN一顆10塊錢很久了。"],["羅委員明才：一葉知秋，我覺得這個叫做「一蛋知愁」啊！一顆蛋就可以瞭解到民眾的內心是多麼的憂愁，在臺灣每個年輕人，就好像是一隻鐵籠裡面的松鼠一直轉、一直轉。請問主計長，他哪一天可以下來、可以看到外面的陽光？看不到嘛！因為薪資永遠趕不上物價的上漲，一般的民眾每天就好像是機器人一樣，人是活的、心是死的，在臺灣永遠看不到他的未來，看不到璀璨瑰麗的明天。主計長，在此時，我們把所有的視野都關著，關在臺灣自己看，然後看著數字覺得，哇！宣布的好開心。我請教一下主計長，現在新加坡平均的實質薪資是多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：新加坡因為物價水準高，他們的薪資大概接近我們的1.7倍、1.8倍。"],["羅委員明才：算兩倍。"],["朱主計長澤民：可是他們的生活費用是很貴的。"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，你慢慢一條一條來算，至少他們1個月平均可能領新臺幣8萬以上，你知道現在有多少臺灣的年輕人不要在臺灣工作，寧願跑到新加坡去工作，很多外流人才、金融人才……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，新加坡的生活水準大概是臺灣的兩倍以上。"],["羅委員明才：很多人都跑出去了，很多人心裡的想法是，我去新加坡工作沒關係，我每天吃泡麵，我辛苦一點，我挨個3年、5年，我可以賺的盆滿缽滿，錢就可以累積很多，可以賺很多的錢，至少忍個幾年回來就有一些收入，可是在臺灣目前的情況就是三個字「苦、苦、苦」。主計長，你可能即將要離去，沒有什麼壓力了，所以我希望你應該要勇敢去做你內心認為真正對臺灣人民好、可以照顧年輕人的事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們也做了很多政策……"],["羅委員明才：與其錢亂亂花，倒不如去年稅收超徵……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有亂花、我們沒有亂花。"],["羅委員明才：這些超徵的錢在今年度每一個人就發1萬塊的紅包……"],["朱主計長澤民：貴黨都說不要用第八十四條……"],["羅委員明才：不要再騙我說沒錢了，每次都說沒錢，最後還不是照發……"],["朱主計長澤民：第八十三條第四款不要用，那個發紅包就是用第八十三條第四款，又會說我們大撒幣。"],["羅委員明才：最後也是發了，立法院你也很清楚，每次講不行的，最後都行。你不要把人民的血汗錢花在浪費的特別預算上面……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有浪費啊！"],["羅委員明才：與其亂亂花，倒不如趕緊來照顧年輕人，年輕人多麼盼望你的1萬塊，你上次1萬塊沒有發，結果發6,000塊，我沒有去領……"],["朱主計長澤民：感謝你對國庫的貢獻……"],["羅委員明才：我表達了實質的抗議，你如果給我1萬塊，我1萬塊也會捐出去，但是我希望今年你可以從善如流，不要亂花錢，把錢發給每個民眾，一人普發現金1萬塊，發給每個人紅包1萬塊，主計長能不能最後做點好事？"],["朱主計長澤民：錢可能要用在更恰當的方向，可能要花在更恰當的方向。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，你所用的前瞻，很多現在都是蚊子館……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！前瞻我們都是做安坑線啊！是羅委員的選區啊！"],["羅委員明才：很多都是浪費錢，效益都沒做到……安坑線有做到，我要謝謝你，但是很多沒有做到的啊！做得好，我們會獎勵，可是做不好的實在太多、太多了，唯一的要求，就是一個人發1萬。","剛剛有講到台電，現在又塑造即將漲價的氛圍，其實民眾已經受不了啦！主計長應該要講點良心話，台電如果漲價漲10%，影響所有的市農工商，我們所面臨的吃吃喝喝、交通會不會漲？早餐店會不會漲？另外一波可怕的漲幅即將在電價漲10%以後又陸續展開。請問主計長，你能不能保證所有授薪階級、所有年輕人的薪資也可以漲10%？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們台電的漲價是考慮到台電的成本，我們不能夠一直用那個預算去貼補，因為不是每年都有稅收超徵。"],["羅委員明才：主計長又來了，選前說不會缺電啊！臺灣不缺電，選前騙選票，選後又繼續要跟人民撈鈔票來補貼台電……"],["朱主計長澤民：缺電跟電價反映成本是兩回事。"],["羅委員明才：那你為什麼要漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：目前我不曉得現在……"],["羅委員明才：那台電為什麼要漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：台電要漲，王部長也講過，它的電費是在成本之下。"],["羅委員明才：那你為什麼選前說臺灣不缺電？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有講不缺電，而且臺灣目前也沒有缺電……"],["羅委員明才：蔡英文總統的錄影帶可以調出來啊！他說臺灣不缺電的啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說不缺電……"],["羅委員明才：如果你反映……"],["朱主計長澤民：現在目前也沒有所謂的缺電。"],["羅委員明才：那你說臺灣缺不缺電？"],["朱主計長澤民：目前沒有。"],["羅委員明才：目前，那明天會不會有？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得，那個是……缺電不缺電，我不是主管機關。"],["羅委員明才：你在不曉得的情況、未來不知的情況，你來恐嚇人民一定要漲10%，不然台電會倒，台電倒跟一般授薪階級有什麼關係？政府要讓它不要倒啊！你可以軍購，幾千億、幾千億這樣花，那你為什麼要讓台電倒？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，那個是兩回事，不能類比。"],["羅委員明才：還有一個，美國現在編列預算，說要給臺灣一個預算，請問主計長，臺灣可以接受其他國家編列的預算嗎？你這個帳上怎麼算？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個帳的話，他們來就是看……我不曉得他們捐的方式，如果捐的是錢，我們當然會列在預算裡面，如果捐的是物資，那國防部會列帳冊管理，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：請問他們編的項目是要做什麼用？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得，因為我沒有看到……"],["羅委員明才：是補助台電呢？還是編的預算要分給我們每個人1萬塊當作基金？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得台電對電價的補助跟美國的……"],["羅委員明才：如果他是編武器的話，那我覺得這個不妥當吧！在其他的國家編武器，鼓勵兩邊趕快去打仗，為什麼不編一個和平基金，鼓勵兩岸趕快來洽談和平的事項？兩岸不要打仗、兩岸不要打架，這才是編好的預算嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：今天是人家要打我們，人家援助我們，我們很感謝，我們並沒有要去打人家，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：這個就好像以前在小學唸書，一方面叫人家「乖、乖、乖」，有的同學就慫恿你「打他、打他」打另外一個人，打完以後，我買乖乖給你吃，這是什麼邏輯？我們希望的是兩岸和平，我們不需要拿到預算買武器，那你買武器，對方說他也要買武器，兩邊就變成軍事競購，這對臺灣好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們也需要和平，可是現在是人家對我們……"],["羅委員明才：最後，因為時間到了，今年的經濟成長率預測是多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：今年的經濟成長率，我們目前預估是3.43。"],["羅委員明才：OK，我希望還是要體恤全民的辛苦，就好像臺灣的股市，現在已經2萬點又上上下下、上上下下的，真正賺到錢的少之又少，整個股市就一支台積電，武林獨出一尊，就是靠台積電在撐盤，可是百工百業蕭條的還是很多啊！我希望主計長考量的還是多數民眾的利益，大家要的是生存，大家想的是生活，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","接著我們請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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rt":514.434,"end":516.276,"text":"那你為什麼要找?那台電為什麼要找?那你為什麼說台灣不缺電?選錢啊?"},{"start":532.472,"end":559.594,"text":"我們也講說不缺電了而且台灣目前也沒有說有缺電台灣目前也沒有所謂的缺電了那你說台灣缺不缺電目前沒有目前明天會不會有我不曉得那個是對你在明天不曉得的情況在未來不知的情況你來恐嚇人民說一定要漲10%不然台電會倒"},{"start":561.138,"end":574.77,"text":"台電倒跟一般的獸心皆喜有什麼關係?你政府要讓它不要倒啊你可以買軍購花幾千億幾千億這樣花那你為什麼要讓台電倒?還有一個美國現在他編列預算說要給台灣一個預算那請問"},{"start":583.186,"end":605.296,"text":"主計長台灣可以接受其他國家編列的預算嗎那你這個帳上怎麼算沒有他那個帳的話他們來就是說看是我不曉得他捐的方式如果捐的是錢我們當然會列在那個預算裡面如果捐的是物資那個國防部會列帳冊管理謝謝"},{"start":608.43,"end":616.395,"text":"請問他編的項目是要做什麼用?是補助台電呢?還是編的預算要分給我們每個人一萬塊當作基金?你如果他是編武器的話,那我覺得這個不妥當吧?"},{"start":629.4,"end":657.276,"text":"你在其他的國家編武器鼓勵大家趕快兩邊去打仗你為什麼不編一個和平基金讓兩岸鼓勵趕快來洽談和平的事項兩岸不要打仗兩岸不要打架今天是人家要打我們人家援助我們很感謝我們並沒有要去打人家謝謝你這個就好像以前小學在念書的時候一方面叫人家乖乖乖然後有的同學就慫恿你打他你打他打你"},{"start":657.816,"end":673.226,"text":"打完以後買乖乖給你吃這是什麼邏輯我們希望的是兩岸的和平我們不是需要拿到的預算然後買武器那你買武器對方說他要買武器兩邊就變成軍事的一個競購"},{"start":676.425,"end":690.045,"text":"對台灣有好嗎?我們也需要和平可是現在是人家對我們最後因為時間到了那個今年的經濟成長率預測是多少今年的經濟成長率我們目前的預估是3.43"},{"start":692.791,"end":709.688,"text":"我希望還是要體恤所有全民的辛苦就好像臺灣的股市現在已經兩萬點又上上下下上上下下的真正賺到錢的少之又少整個股市就一直台積電"},{"start":711.653,"end":711.673,"text":"謝謝羅委員"},{"start":737.577,"end":737.898,"text":"王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"149803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69032ef7f267906cc0b633e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a69a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:33 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Base裡面有沒有譬如說同一個地址裡面有至少超過5家公司以上在同一個地址那這一些要不要主動先去了解一下"},{"start":179.284,"end":193.238,"text":"如果說他不是在商辦大樓他在一般民宅一個地址有五間公司明明很明顯的常理判斷就不可能有那麼多人五間公司不可能都在同一個地址裡面工作更何況他還是民宅那這不用去了解調查嗎?"},{"start":194.144,"end":217.93,"text":"跟委員報告齁,其實在公司登記階段他要登記在這個地址他就要附一些證明文件那剛才委員提到說一個地址裡面有非常多的公司他的狀況非常多那我們必須去看這些哪些是合法哪些不合法比如說現在很多的中小企業或是新創企業他其實一張桌子一個電腦對,所以本席剛剛已經開宗明先強調說他不是一般的商辦大樓"},{"start":218.55,"end":240.306,"text":"我當然了解有一些商辦大樓他可能一次裡面會有很多家公司他可能譬如說他新創公司他們就在同一個會議室 share那個辦公空間這本期了解那但是那比較屬於是商辦大樓嘛那我現在講是說你們應該可以去調個資料這非常快而且這不是絕對不用成本我們只要去了解是說有哪些地址"},{"start":240.646,"end":264.373,"text":"他有重複比如說5家以上都在同一個地址再去清查人工比對是說這些地址到底是民宅還是商辦大樓還是一般的公司這做不到嗎?可以跟委員報告那什麼時候可以做?我們其實在現在衛福部給我們的名單裡面我們去比對我們這幾家有問題的我們都已經去把它抓出來那剛才你講就是說現在公司登記跟"},{"start":265.453,"end":292.063,"text":"公司登記跟商業登記的加速非常多所以我們一定是從有問題的公司這邊去救他的負責人甚至是說影響什麼比較廣﹖比如說食品進口業因為現在大家看到可能食品進口業相關這個是比較影響廣大的能不能先從這一些類型先去做那個跟委員報告我們確實是從食品進口因為是什麼時候能夠做出來什麼時候能夠清查出來什麼時候能夠再找出不要再有下一個蘇丹紅這樣的廠商"},{"start":293.513,"end":317.134,"text":"我們比對的名單從衛福部那邊找到有進口這些辣椒粉的這些名單我們已經提供給衛福部了我們其實禮拜六禮拜天那天兩天都已經加班把這個名單比對出來了部長來來來部長還是要請您是部長本期間花了是4分多鐘時間就主要跟您講的是說我們其實有更多的作為可以更積極的去預防"},{"start":318.513,"end":343.943,"text":"部會是畫部會的合作好不好?對是沒有錯我只用一分鐘的時間我再請教因為現在可能電價的部分馬上就會漲價了看起來是漲價勢在必行但有沒有考慮過有沒有開源節流的部分本席先比對了今天的這個台電的預算書2023年到2024年用人成本人事費用增加多少?部長手邊有沒有資料?這個有點細"},{"start":346.437,"end":366.833,"text":"用人費用有點細這個細節可能要看那個資料才會知道旅猜費用有多少增加猜旅費用那個委員是不是我請台電會後再給您資料好不好其實這不用因為本期其實已經查完了嘛我只是想要知道是說為什麼會增加那麼多的用人費用跟猜旅費用"},{"start":367.72,"end":396.017,"text":"用人費用增加主要是因為最近這幾年我們的那個增加多少錢?退休潮很高不是啊你不是退休金沒有增加太多啊最主要是薪資的部分啊增加了2023年到2024年這預算書增加了17億的用人費用是不是?退休金的那個不止退休金啦你不用一直扯退休金他是整體的用人費用連薪資都增加了旅餐費用增加了多少?"},{"start":397.628,"end":420.568,"text":"旅運費增加了5億元旅運費可能有包括說國內國外出差但是怎麼會增加5億元本期要提出來是講是說有沒有開源跟節流就是說你現在在做電價的上漲的時候當然會直接轉嫁到民生的成本但另外一部分我們有沒有做節流"},{"start":421.429,"end":425.215,"text":"為什麼會我們的用人費用也大增為什麼我們的旅餐費用也大增而且這都比2023年成長了那麼多"},{"start":429.345,"end":456.007,"text":"這個沒有問題,這個都可以提相關信任資料給委員裁部長,剛剛我連問你數字你都不清楚部長,我先要要求你先把沒有問題這句話收回並且給本席一個書面報告當然尊重主席,但是我說要求經濟部下午給本席一個書面報告好好說明為什麼會用人費用跟旅運費用增加那麼多本局會持續追這個議題,好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":459.141,"end":459.682,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cd3014190d6618d314b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6268cb4a8a8bd5f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：部長好。如您所知道的，從今年1月起，農業部的老農津貼又調高了，也就是說，從91年4,000元，到今年可以領到8,080元。在農保條例第五條有特別談到，除了農會的會員之外，只要年滿15歲以上，沒有領取各種相關社會保險老年給付，都可以來參加農保。以我們原住民來講，我們最喜歡的就是農保，有哪一些相關的保險呢？像沒有公保，沒有勞保，沒有軍保，或者是沒有國民年金。","我會問這個問題是因為有一個案例，那後來發現這樣的人很多，還真不少。以這個老人家為例，他是民國31年出生，在他41歲的時候，那個時候經濟起飛，很多原住民都到都會區去工作，他是去做吃的，參加了廚師工會，後來年紀大了他就要回家鄉，那個時候工會就跟他說可以結清勞保，領取一次性的老年給付，他也很高興，領回去之後一直到現在，他已經82歲了，他一直都在務農，種芒果，其實收入也不高，最慘的是他什麼老年給付都沒有，那他非常羨慕，經常去問。事實上，這些都是長者，我要講的是很老的。","我們來看一下，部長，這邊有一個調查是「臺灣原住民族經濟狀況調查」，這是去年（112年）6月底的資料，您可以看到，我們原住民從事農林漁牧業是占最高，當然從事營建工程的也很多，兩個不相上下。另外，它也提到，我們主要負責維持家計、生計的是60歲以上，也就是說，對原住民族群來講，到60歲以後都還需要繼續工作，繼續承擔家裡的主要生計，所以我想要請教一下部長，您聽到這樣的案例，而且還真不少，我講的是老人家，您覺得他該不該領取老農津貼？他沒有任何的社會保險，他務農。"],["許部長銘春：他務農，沒有任何社會保險？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有，這樣的長者還真不少。"],["許部長銘春：他有沒有領過老年給付？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他就是那個時候離開工會。"],["許部長銘春：應該有領過老年給付。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，他領完了。"],["許部長銘春：如果按照現在法令的規定，他有領過老年給付的話，他就沒有辦法請領。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒辦法？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以他二、三十年來都沒有任何給付。我要講的是說，如果我們用他當時的投保薪資，他當年工作的時候是1萬……"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個是老農津貼的問題，應該是要問農業部。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，沒有關係，我現在就是要來問您。以他當時的投保薪資去算的話，他是做了15年，所以他當年是一次領了23萬多，後來我們去看一下，這個當事人當時是56歲退嘛！所以他目前的狀況，如果他可以去領老農津貼，大概還沒有到4年就已經超過他當時的23萬；如果以他現在82歲，他已經可以領將近150萬；如果以原住民的平均餘命，我們目前平均餘命是78歲，他也可以領到112萬多。","好，現在我們來看一下，因為我們的農保條例告訴他，如果要去請領老農津貼，他其實所有的條件都符合，唯一一個條件不符合就是要持續加保。他曾經參加過農保，他回來之後也是繼續務農，但是他有一個條件不符合，就是要持續加保，所以他也跑去農會一直要加保，可是農會告訴他，在這邊有寫，說他已領取老年給付，請於條例修正後再參加農保，所以部長，您就知道為什麼我要來請教您。","部長，我去年10月也曾經到農業部問過農業部部長，現在同樣的問題我也要請教你，為什麼？您聽聽看，農業部長當時是這麼說：「對，他本身在現在相關的規定上面是無法適用的。我們會後去看這部分是否真正的具有公平性，如果是有公平性，我們會解釋，如果是屬於被遺漏的一群，相對的就是該用什麼樣的規定去處理，如果是以農業部相關的規定，農業部會草擬」，這個是當時農業部長說的，所以您也同意嗎？後來他們研擬的相關辦法是說，只要勞動部同意他繳回當時的老年給付就可以，那我就要請教部長，您的意見如何？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個是我們法令的規定，我沒有辦法說支不支持，因為現在法令規定就是你領了之後，核付了以後就不能變更，所以沒有所謂我可以收回，然後他再另外去保農保的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以現在……"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是說，這個問題應該不在我，現在應該是說他已經領完老年給付之後，那一邊願不願意讓他再去加保的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不是。部長，因為農業部有農保條例，現在我再翻回農保條例，我再唸一次給您聽，在農保條例第五條第二款，「非前項農會會員，年滿十五歲以上從事農業工作之農民，未領取相關社會保險老年給付者，得參加本保險」，現在農會就是根據這個農保條例來告訴他，可能要等修法之後才可以回來參加農保。","現在農業部也覺得他們是被漏接的一群，也願意來研擬，結果他們提供的意見是，勞動部這邊針對一次性老年給付，如果他願意繳回去，你們可不可以讓這樣的長者……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個沒有辦法用函釋來解決哦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["許部長銘春：這個是法令的明文規定哦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您認為要怎麼修？"],["許部長銘春：如果這個制度可以改來改去，這會影響到我們勞保的制度還有財務的穩定耶！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以部長，我現在就是要請您盤點一下，估算65歲以上沒有足夠的老年給付，而且沒有辦法再加入農保的農民人數，我希望您會同農業部一起去共商，然後研商可行的方案，讓勞保投保年資或老年結算金額過低的農民可以繳回，這是我的解方，也是農業部的一個解方啦！讓他可以回復農保資格。","我今天會來是希望勞動部可以會同農業部在兩個月以內提出說明，如果你們有開會的話，也希望可以通知我，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好，但是這個是法令的規範，沒關係啦！委員，我們會跟農業部來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為他們的確是被漏接的一群，而且我希望去算一下，其實這樣的人不多，因為有的……"],["許部長銘春：不是多不多的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：像年輕的，他其實可以去國民年金那邊，但是像這樣的長者是沒有辦法，因為他已經過了年紀，好不好？"],["主席：是不是請勞動部會後再跟伍委員說明？"],["許部長銘春：好，我們再跟委員說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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﹏﹏"},{"start":321.181,"end":336.67,"text":"的所謂的促進對象為什麼這樣講就我們現在主動發現問題不是透過數字來引力問題因為你如果是就業率如果不扣除我們的非勞動力人口的時候這數據是有相差的因為我覺得"},{"start":337.33,"end":365.877,"text":"老東部足月透過這種勞動統計來瞭解國人勞動狀況OK可是國人最關心的就是就業率跟失業率可是當你把這個非勞動人力排除之後呢的確看起來數字很漂亮可是這群被技術性排除的人正是政府要積極去努力鼓動他們出來就業的人而這有兩個群體是我非常關心的一個是15歲到24歲一個是55歲以上的人那我們"},{"start":366.957,"end":366.977,"text":"綜禮生"},{"start":397.039,"end":397.503,"text":"而針對於"},{"start":399.838,"end":426.635,"text":"他們目前的狀態在就業的時候有沒有因為你們已經是在111年12月19號就公布弱勢青少年的慈愛準備計畫那我現在想問現在成效如何那做的狀況而且如何定義弱勢是家庭總收入還有我覺得去年不錯的是勞動部已經提出少年就業計畫可是我現在在你們官網上找不到這個是一個不錯的"},{"start":427.756,"end":443.677,"text":"﹖"},{"start":443.677,"end":464.957,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":464.957,"end":483.08,"text":"議員．"},{"start":483.18,"end":483.48,"text":"我剛剛提問的這些東西謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":515.338,"end":515.36,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"149800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903dfb21bb57f040bd63ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a60f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:44:48 - 11:51:43","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":415,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:51:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:44:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1130,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時45分）主席、各位委員。有請銓敘部部長。"],["主席：有請銓敘部周部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，剛提的那個不確定法律概念，確實太抽象了，我是說考績法的那個部分，我也是老公務員了，30年的公務員了，這個部分確實是如此，我也不知道為什麼要改，這個大家已經行之有年，都已經習慣了，再改成那樣，可能恐怕問題會更多。","好，公務人員任用法第十八條第一項第三款規定，在同官等內調任低職等職務，除自願者外，以調任低一職等之職務為限，均仍以原職等任用，且機關首長及副首長不得調任本機關同職務列等以外之其他職務，主管人員不得調任本單位之副主管或非主管，副主管人員不得調任本單位之非主管。前面都規定得很好，但是後面這句話「但有特殊情形，報經總統府、主管院或國家安全會議核准者，不在此限。」會有發生這種情形的，很多看起來都是中央部會或是五院，基本上是五院，因為要報經總統府、主管院，屬於特殊情形，而這樣的條文在中華民國的法律中可能只有這條，「但有特殊情形」，然後授權給首長這麼大的權限，本來機關首長跟副首長不得調任本機關同職務列等以外之其他職務，他是沒辦法、沒有別的，就隨便找個理由「但有特殊情形」，所以這條條文應該要修了，部長，你是學法律的。"],["周部長志宏：過去大概是希望讓這個制度稍微有點彈性，因為有些特殊情形如果沒辦法做調整，可能會不適當，所以才保留這一個特殊情形的條款，但這個適用機會基本上很少，而且這個特殊情形，我們都會尊重總統府、主管院跟國家安全會議自己的決定，那只是給它一個例外調整的彈性而已，原則上應該還是照前面各款的規定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是啊！但是這個就是授權太大，還不是一般所謂的不確定法律概念，比這個還更寬了，對不對？所以銓敘部是不是可以去檢討這條條文？"],["周部長志宏：我們會來檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來請考選部部長。"],["許部長舒翔：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：公務人員考試法第六條第二項，為因應特殊性質機關之需要及保障身心障礙者、原住民族之就業權益，有所謂的特種考試。"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：原住民的部分，從臺灣光復之後就開始有了。"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後從過去的山地行政特考，到現在則是叫原住民行政特考，簡稱原住民行政特考，而且也定了公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則，都有定了，都實施很多年了，這裡面我要特別請考選部來協助的，這個是過去的附表，是姚嘉文當考試院院長時代的附表，我要特別列出來的意思是，很多的部會像外交部、僑務委員會，有原住民職缺的不是完全沒有，但還是比較少一點，他們當時都還是有提出職缺，原住民行政特考有提出職缺，但其他相關的部會，這幾年越來越少，相關的部會有提出職缺的，大部分都拿去做高考啊！普考啊！就拿去那邊，就以考試院來講，應該沒有原住民的公務人員吧？考試院下，包括銓敘部；像你們也一樣，沒有嘛！所以我的意思是，很多直接有關係的，像勞動部，原住民勞工的比例很高；像相關的部會，農委會，就是現在的農業部，跟原住民息息相關的很多，所以這個部分人員的進用列為原住民行政特考的職缺，這個部分要請銓敘部去協調相關的部會，以前都是這樣啊！以前都是銓敘部，姚嘉文院長的時代是這樣子的啊！因為我那時候是原民會的副主委，所以我瞭解，好不好？"],["許部長舒翔：好，我們再努力，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員，謝謝許部長。","接下來有請林委員楚茵，林委員楚茵，林委員楚茵不在。","有請鄭委員正鈐，鄭委員正鈐，鄭委員正鈐不在。","有請謝委員衣鳯，謝委員衣鳯，謝委員衣鳯不在。","有請羅委員明才，羅委員明才，羅委員明才不在。","有請伍委員麗華，伍委員麗華，伍委員麗華不在。","有請徐委員欣瑩，徐委員欣瑩，徐委員欣瑩不在。","有請蔡委員易餘，蔡委員易餘，蔡委員易餘不在。","有請楊委員瓊瓔，楊委員瓊瓔，楊委員瓊瓔不在。","有請陳委員冠廷，陳委員冠廷，陳委員冠廷不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（11時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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原住民行政特考這裡面"},{"start":274.176,"end":299.908,"text":"這個也定了公務人員特種考試、原住民族考試規則,都也定了,都實施很多年了。這裡面我特別要請這個考選部來協助的。這個是過去的副表,過去的副表。姚家文當考試院院長時代的副表。"},{"start":300.922,"end":329.566,"text":"我也特別列出來的意思是說很多的部會像外交部、僑務委員會要說跟原住民的那個不完全沒有但是還是比較少一點但是他們都還是當時都還是列為而且還有提出直切原住民選特考有提出直切"},{"start":331.021,"end":356.606,"text":"那當然其他的相關的部會這幾年越來越少相關的部會提出直切的大部分都拿去做這個高考啊普考啊拿去那邊就以考試院來講應該沒有演出名的公務人員吧考試院包括的各前戲部這個"},{"start":360.267,"end":360.467,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":375.683,"end":377.986,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":395.68,"end":396.101,"text":"好 謝謝政委"}]}},{"id":"149799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cf0323db758fb88c3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6ef73f5eace86becf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:32:03 - 11:44:40","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:44:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:32:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1073,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長以及周部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早安。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想先請教一個問題，大概也就是跟這一次我們的考績修正有關嘛！我自己以前都在公家機關，所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考績的，先請教一個問題，我想先請教劉秘書長，有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：離職狀況，這幾年離職1年大概一萬多人，但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等，所以這是一個總的人數，大概一萬三吧！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我這邊有一個數字，大概就是從107年到111年，其實我們可以看得出來，您剛剛講的也沒有錯，從107年到110年其實數字是減少的，但是111年增加到1萬3,500人，增幅是高達22.84%，這是全國公務員的部分。如果不看全國公務員，我們看中央各機關的離職情況，中央各機關的離職情況我手上的數據在111年度是3,753人，也就是它的增幅也是高達22.41%。那我們剛剛看全國的增幅以111年來說是到22.84%，這個是公務員的部分，我們現在來比較一下公營事業，公營事業在同時期離職的減幅是8.85%；衛生醫療機構的離職人數增幅是8.89%；公立學校職員的離職人數是增加15.21%。我剛剛說的這些數字，跟全國的公務員比較起來，一般行政機關的離職率還是比我剛剛所說的公營事業、學校，還有衛生機構都還要高，請問一下秘書長，你們那邊有沒有掌握問題是出在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休，那現在退休當然屆齡退休的比例慢慢越來越高，但這個是因為退休，所以性質就不太一樣。那辭職大概占這個人數裡差不多兩成，大概就是每年2,000上下的數字，那個是辭職的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，照您剛剛說的，你們有研究辭職的人數大概比例增加多少？"],["劉秘書長建忻：辭職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的1%，大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間。"],["吳委員宗憲：我不是說跟全體的公務員人數，我是說……"],["劉秘書長建忻：總人……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，辭職的人數比例有沒有增或減？"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果看過去5年是先減再增，有一點小幅變動，所以大概在0.68%到0.96%，大概就是1,900到二千出頭，那也跟委員報告，我們有去做一個比對的調查，五、六年前辭職的同仁，大概有三成回流到公部門，也就是說這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作。所以我們有查過這二千多人可能過幾年就有一部分會慢慢回來，當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走，或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色，所以離開，當然個人因素等等，這個我們也都有調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，照您剛剛說的，我們先不考量他可能……我可以理解你的意思，因為我們自己也是公務員嘛！他可能第一次考試，考的分數、分發的地點不滿意，他就會回過頭來再考一次，這個也不是新鮮事嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：這我可以理解。但是我想請教一下，就像您剛剛說的，辭職的人數還是有微幅上升，我是想請教一下就是，因為我們剛有比較，不管怎麼樣，公務員的部分跟公營機關、醫院、公立學校比，還是增加很多，那在您的立場，不然我請教周部長好了，部長，在您的立場，你覺得這是不是有顯示公務員的招牌好像不是那麼吸引人？"],["周部長志宏：因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定，所以並沒有非常大幅度的調整。至於其他部門離職率的狀況、原因，我們會再來瞭解，相對比較之下，公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，你們平常會去研究一下離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎？有沒有做這樣的研究？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們去年有做了一些統計數據的分析，然後有幾個機關的確讓我們看到它們的離職人數，可能是人數，不是比例，有比較突出，這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換，如果前幾年的數據看起來，也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯，這是一個推測。"],["吳委員宗憲：跟責任制……"],["劉秘書長建忻：疫情期間。"],["吳委員宗憲：疫情。"],["劉秘書長建忻：職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高，或者重考率會比較高。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我就講個簡單例子，像我看書記官，有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚，然後就不報到，明年再考。所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係，大家就是連報到都不想報到，所以我才會說，如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些機關的辭職率特別高的話，也要稍微去看一下他們的工作是不是有出什麼狀況，程序上面是不是有可以更簡化精進的地方，這個可能再麻煩，或是說看部長有沒有什麼要補充？"],["周部長志宏：基本上，剛剛委員提到像公營事業，因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高，所以它離職率相對就會比較少，我想這也是一個因素。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就是我剛剛說的，對於一些比較特別的機關，如果有數據上面的凸顯，再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施。","現在要跟各位討論的一個比較重要的點就是，我知道考績法這次有修正，這次大家有提一個草案，我剛剛所提到的，其實公務員是很在乎考績的，包括我想立法院這邊也是，那我們原本是分4個：甲、乙、丙、丁，現在變成5個，傑出、優良、良好、待改善等總共有5種，我想請問一下，原本的考績這4種分等方式，它的問題是什麼？哪裡有問題？"],["周部長志宏：我想最大的問題就在於我們設定的比例，甲等的比例是75%，乙等是25%，乙等相對是比較差，所以大家都在避免被列為乙等，也會因此產生乙等的輪流或各種的潛規則產生；再來就是它不足以獎優，因為大多數人都是甲等，沒辦法在裡面再去進一步的獎優，讓更傑出的人能夠被凸顯出來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個部分我是認同啦！但我也覺得以前75%甲等，大家只要打贏那25%，就沒有問題了，當然這是一個考量。但是在新的草案裡面，我覺得有一個地方怪怪的，就是第九條，它說受考人員在考績年度內有下列情形之一者，始得考列傑出，第十款是擔任機關首長、副首長，就是擔任幹部職，領導有方，績效優良。把這個列進去，如果在早年75%是甲等的時候，可能基層公務員就想算了，不想跟你老闆吵，反正有75%是甲等。但是現在傑出是不得超過5%，這時候就會有一些基層公務員會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都占滿了，那他們算老幾這樣，我就擔心你列這個的話會不會有這個問題存在？"],["周部長志宏：我們也有聽到相關的意見，也要避免這樣的誤解，其實它只是條件之一，但並不是一定要當過首長、副首長、主管、副主管的才能夠拿到傑出，再加上如果未來，因為考績就是要同官等內評比，所以不一定都會是首長、副首長跟主管、副主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，所以這是第十款嘛！它是第十，擔任過這些職務，但是這個有必要特別列出來嗎？"],["周部長志宏：這個我們會來檢討，當然擔任主管，他職責程度比較重，當然比較有可能……"],["吳委員宗憲：我以前跟過一個檢察長，然後部裡面不良好的地檢署要有1個缺額，那個檢察長跳出來說：那你打我好了。一位朱姓檢察長，那我很佩服這樣的長官。"],["周部長志宏：對，我也佩服。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我知道很多長官都很有guts、很有肩膀，但是我們特別把他列進去條款中，就是曾經擔任過機關首長得考列傑出，我們特別把機關首長放進去，這對嗎？應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度、工作的狀況嘛！那有沒有必要把他列出來，就是機關首長，這是本席的一個問題。"],["周部長志宏：這個我們會檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩你們能夠考量一下。"],["周部長志宏：是，好。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候，基層一定會跟你吵，以前75%的時候，反正很容易打甲等，他也不會跟你吵，這個再麻煩你們。"],["周部長志宏：不過我們多數良好是跟現在的甲等是一樣的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道，但是傑出只有5%，這個沒有弄錯嘛！我說真的啦！當長官就有當長官的肩膀，如果當長官好處占盡，責任都是底下扛，我相信這樣的公務體制，很多人就會失去他的鬥志、失去他的熱忱。"],["周部長志宏：我們會避免這種現象的發生。"],["吳委員宗憲：本席就提出這樣一個淺見供你們參考。"],["周部長志宏：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，草案第十一條，我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的，就是待改善裡面有一個「職場霸凌、挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守」，這個東西會不會很主觀呢？以上這幾個點是在「應考列待改善」裡面，也就是你條文中有的，對不對？"],["周部長志宏：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個變成違反了法律的明確性原則，我講一個很簡單的，「品德操守」也是一個很模糊的空間；「整肅異己」這個更模糊啊！大家不約我吃飯，我就覺得你霸凌我！"],["周部長志宏：跟委員報告，這就是過去考列丙等的參考指標，裡面就是這樣的，但我們會檢討這是不是會太……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不能說以前這樣，所以現在就如何，我們其實是一個越來越法治化的國家，法律明確性原則是我們念法律一個最基本的概念，所以很模糊的東西，我會比較建議儘量不要放進去，否則以後幹部就是你對我好，你就是沒有挑撥離間；你對我不好，就是挑撥離間，這就是很奇怪！"],["周部長志宏：我們會參考委員意見再來調整。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以待改善的項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念，就麻煩你們也參考一下，好不好？以上是本席看完草案之後提出了這幾個建議。好，謝謝兩位。"],["周部長志宏：謝謝委員。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委，謝謝秘書長，謝謝部長，這的確很有道理，用詞要明確，謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭委員天財質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施"},{"start":426.374,"end":450.179,"text":"那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好"},{"start":456.34,"end":475.444,"text":"請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等"},{"start":475.964,"end":477.706,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":495.419,"end":518.469,"text":"這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良"},{"start":524.651,"end":545.805,"text":"把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣"},{"start":547.146,"end":547.166,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":576.198,"end":576.218,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":597.27,"end":619.56,"text":"租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況"},{"start":621.101,"end":643.545,"text":"那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的"},{"start":644.585,"end":670.203,"text":"我知道 但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是 我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志 失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子 僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好 那再來就是"},{"start":671.804,"end":698.115,"text":"草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的"},{"start":699.994,"end":723.681,"text":"品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說"},{"start":725.291,"end":751.096,"text":"很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝"},{"start":753.897,"end":754.319,"text":"謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035a4c717baf98462333e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a60b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:44:49 - 11:49:31","影片長度":"00:04:42","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":282,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:49:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:44:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":795,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時44分）請王部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想這幾天大家都在討論，臺灣現在到底缺不缺電？"],["王部長美花：不缺電。"],["黃委員珊珊：不缺電？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：那未來會不會缺電？"],["王部長美花：所以我們台電有中長期的計畫，再增加電源來供應我們產業的需要。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以缺不缺電對產業來說、對人民來說都非常地重要，但是我們也看到了，不管是晶圓廠或者是現在所謂工商大佬對於將來的AI時代，都認為其實它會是一個吃電的怪獸，而對於台積電接下來在臺灣可能還有更多的擴廠計畫，我們未來的能源配置，就是我問的，未來會不會缺電？"],["王部長美花：我們其實……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果按照他們的計畫都要做，這些都要做的話，我們的能源配置規劃配不配得上？"],["王部長美花：所以我們這幾年為什麼再新增這麼多電廠，其實我們都是事先跟廠商溝通、瞭解他們的用電需求，來增加新的電源。"],["黃委員珊珊：我來自臺北市，當時我們就有發生臺北市東區門戶計畫的新建案，申請不到足夠的相關容量，台電是說它有電，但運不進來，所以要蓋變電所，現在你的電夠不夠、運不運得進來？"],["王部長美花：內湖的這一個部分委員應該也很清楚，這個跟全臺灣的電不一樣，這個就是缺少高壓變電所的部分，讓電送到內湖的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以除了缺不缺電，還有電能不能送到，這些是台電很重要的任務。"],["王部長美花：這個高壓變電所……"],["黃委員珊珊：不能拖了20年，還在討論同一件事啊！部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有啊！所以現在臺北市政府終於讓我們可以開始蓋了，所以正在蓋。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以台電有兩個任務，第一個要把電足額的送到相關的產業，不能讓它受到影響。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個是我們現在的虧損，雖然是全民買單，也有政策上的目標，但是一樣，未來的這些所謂高科技、所謂的智慧AI時代，將來的這個吃電怪獸，廠商可能也要想一想，怎麼樣讓他們在能源的配置上面能夠做出一些貢獻。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能單單靠政府，或者是全民幫他們一起來處理。我最近有看到一些民間的企業，他們已經開始自主發展所謂的氫能發電，也希望能夠得到經濟部的支持。部長都應該好好地來想想，這些廠商是不是在它的院區裡面、廠區裡面就可以有自己的發電系統，部長覺得呢？"],["王部長美花：如果他們願意這樣做，我們都非常贊成，也會支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：你看到的OpenAI，他們在蓋晶圓廠的同時，也要在裡面做小型的核融合發電，我想核能在臺灣還是一個爭議的話題，但是這是一個可以考慮讓民眾不用擔負這些大廠自己需要的用電，這才是我覺得將來可長可久的相關方向。"],["王部長美花：廠商如果願意自備電源的話，我們都非常樂意看到。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，所以我覺得這個是將來政策上面也要採取的相關鼓勵措施。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣不能沒有台積電，但是臺灣也不能只有台積電，台積電是臺灣的護國神山，但是同樣的，相關的能源，他們也應該要跟我們大家一起來承擔相關的責任，所以重點是如果可能讓廠商在廠區裡面做發電，我覺得這個是政府應該要鼓勵的。第二個是能源政策，我希望部長不管怎麼樣，在您看守的期間，對未來剛剛講的這些配置上面的用電規劃，我覺得現在就要提出未來10年到20年的計畫，尤其是2025，如果真的有所謂的非核家園，你馬上要減的7%，要從哪裡補回來，這個也需要向立法院報告，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望兩個禮拜之內，給我一個完整的相關電力配置的報告。"],["王部長美花：可以，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：還是請委員上臺、下臺的時候記得跟主席臺鞠躬，這是禮貌。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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現在你的電夠不夠,又不運得進來?"},{"start":103.008,"end":122.455,"text":"內湖的這個部分委員應該很清楚 這個跟全台灣的電不一樣 這個就是缺少那個高壓變電所的部分 讓電送到這個內湖的部分所以除了缺不缺電 還有電能不能送到 這就是台電很重要的任務 不能拖了20年還在討論同一件事啊"},{"start":123.856,"end":138.513,"text":"所以現在台北市政府終於讓我們可以開始來蓋了所以現在都在蓋所以台電有兩個任務第一個要把電足額的送到相關的產業不能讓它受到影響第二個是我們現在的虧損"},{"start":139.814,"end":156.491,"text":"雖然是全民買單也有政策上的目標但是一樣未來的這些所謂高科技所謂的智慧AI時代將來的這個吃電怪獸廠商可能也要想一想怎麼樣讓他們能夠在能源的配置上面要做出一些貢獻吧"},{"start":158.033,"end":172.15,"text":"不能單單靠政府或者是全民幫大家幫他們一起來處理我最近有看到一些民間的企業他們已經開始自主發展所謂的輕能發電也希望能夠得到經濟部的支持"},{"start":173.407,"end":187.475,"text":"院長、部長都應該好好地來想想這些廠商他們是不是在他的院區裡面、廠區裡面就可以自己有自己的發電系統?部長覺得勒?你看到的Open AI他們已經蓋晶圓廠的同時他們也要在裡面做所謂的小型的合融合的發電"},{"start":195.26,"end":223.098,"text":"我想核能在臺灣還是一個爭議的話題但是這是一個可以考慮讓民眾不用擔負這些大廠他們自己需要的用電這才是我覺得將來可以可長可久的相關的方向廠商如果會願意自備電源的話我們是都非常樂意所以部長我覺得這個是將來政策上面也要採取相關鼓勵的措施所以臺灣不能沒有台積電但是臺灣也不能只有台積電"},{"start":224.119,"end":251.226,"text":"台積電是臺灣的護國神山但是同樣的相關的能源他們也應該要跟我們大家一起來承擔相關的責任所以重點是如果可能有廠商在廠區裡面做發電我覺得這是政府應該要鼓勵的第二個就是能源政策希望部長不管怎麼樣在您看守的期間我們希望對未來剛剛講的這些配置上面的用電的規劃我覺得現在就要提出未來10年到20年的計畫"},{"start":252.846,"end":267.199,"text":"尤其是2025如果真的有所謂的非核家園你馬上撿的7%要從哪裡補回來這個也需要向立法院來報告我希望兩個禮拜之內給我一個完整的相關電力配置的報告還是請一下委員上台下台的時候記得跟主席抬鞠躬這是禮貌"}]}},{"id":"149797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903a92d2aa63dc939c5b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6b6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:36:23 - 11:46:38","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":615,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:46:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:36:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時36分）主席好，先請審計長。"],["主席：請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：審計長好。首先，本席肯定審計部長久以來有依法獨立行使審計職權不受不當干涉，有提出中央及地方縣市政府的審核決算報告。因為今天很多人都提了很多全國的事情，我們應該來講一些金門審計和主計方面的事宜。","111年度金門縣總預算執行結果，歲入決算數是一百二十三億多，為近五年的新高，當然是因為我們很主動積極的爭取中央補助款，但是受到COVID-19的影響，捐獻和規費收入不如預期，所以金門縣的自籌財源金額比例從40億、即33%，比107年減少了八億多，就是少了11.03%，等於金門縣的自籌財源比例變成近五年的新低，顯示金門對上級政府補助收入的仰賴日深。111年金門縣的歲入歲出相抵，仍短絀十七億多，連續六年的鉅額短絀，財政失衡狀況就越來越嚴重。雖然我們現在是沒有債務，但是還要付很多錢，光是舊制公務人員退休金及優惠存款差額利息就要付五十三億多，對金門縣的日後財政可能產生負擔，這是你們寫的報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！金門雖然沒有負債，但是我們觀察出來它每年都有短絀，現在本島大部分的縣市每年都已經開始有賸餘了，但金門出現反現象，所以它有短絀的現象。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，財政狀況越來越差了。主席，我們想請主計長來談一下，謝謝審計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長好。你們有一個各直轄市及縣市政府財力級次表，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對！"],["陳委員玉珍：根據規定，中央對直轄市及縣市政府的計畫型補助款按照財力級次表給不同的比例，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個叫補助辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門是第幾級啊？你們總共有五級嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：五級，對！"],["陳委員玉珍：金門是第幾級？"],["朱主計長澤民：第三級。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門為什麼是第三級？你告訴我，第三級是哪些縣市？臺南市、高雄市、新竹市，我們是離島，跟臺南、高雄排在一起欸！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們有一個行之多年的級次方法。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們的標準是什麼呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：如果是直轄市的話，因為有6個，第一級有1個、第二級有2個、第三級有3個。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，臺北、高雄……"],["朱主計長澤民：另外的16個縣市，第三級會有5個、第四級有5個、第五級有6個。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，每一個級次就是……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們是採相對的概念。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是555嘛。我也知道你們按照5個、5個、5個……"],["朱主計長澤民：是556。"],["陳委員玉珍：我是說縣市啦！5個、5個……"],["朱主計長澤民：是556，因為是16個縣市。"],["陳委員玉珍：你看民國100年六都成立後，各縣市有變化，同樣是離島的澎湖跟連江（就是馬祖）都從第三級跳到第五級，為什麼我們金門還是在第三級？"],["朱主計長澤民：大家都知道，金門到現在都沒有借錢過。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道金門沒有借錢啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：這是很難得的。"],["陳委員玉珍：但你這樣子是懲罰我們這種好小孩、模範生喔！因為我們沒有借錢，所以你們就要我們自己出多一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有！補助款本來就是對財政比較好的縣市，我們的比例就比較少……"],["陳委員玉珍：比較好的財政就補助少一點，比較差的財政就補助多一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對！這個是……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門縣應該把財政弄爛一點，讓你們補助多一點、自己少出一點，比爛就對了啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有這個意思。我跟各位講，我們的方法是如果你往上升的話，還有獎勵措施。"],["陳委員玉珍：從100年到110年，你看我們的財政狀況，我們的縣庫存款已經從195億剩下105億，這幾年已經減少了90億。"],["朱主計長澤民：可是我跟各位講，你們財政累計賸餘的成長率還是全國第二高。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是我們表現還是很好啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對，可能……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為金門高粱酒還是算賣得不錯啦！我們也是很努力在喝，但是……"],["朱主計長澤民：對啊，努力！"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你可以這樣子，讓我們為了自己的財政努力的喝高粱酒，但中央給我們的補助款卻一直聞風不動，要自己出這麼多嗎？這樣有公平嗎？這就好像……"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須說明一下……"],["陳委員玉珍：學生如果考試考得好，老師就不給獎勵……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們有獎勵。"],["陳委員玉珍：你就要我們不要每次都考90分，要考到50分這樣才會獎勵我們嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有讓……你們永遠都是在第三級嘛！是那個縣市的……"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！第三級啊！我們怎麼跟臺南、高雄大都會，還有新竹……"],["朱主計長澤民：委員不是這樣，因為我們是分成……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道縣市就是新竹市嘛，現在新竹有科學園區，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：你們也有很好的地理環境啊！我就說你們相對其他的縣市，到現在都還沒借錢……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果我們有借錢，你才會給我們補助多一點就對了，是不是這樣？因為我們沒有借錢，所以只好自己出多一點錢給地方做建設，如果有借錢，你就會給我們更多一點，因為可能有負債，有負債就可以從三級改成四級，改成五級，你是鼓勵我們這樣做嗎？你講一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：貴縣的累計賸餘65億，它的成長率……"],["陳委員玉珍：很少啊！已經從200億，到100億，現在剩下60億，很快會變負債啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：僅次於臺北市。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道啦！我的意思是，你剛剛的說法是因為我們都有剩下錢，所以你就沒有辦法給那麼多的補助，我想請問主計長，如果我們去借錢，你就會給比較多的補助嗎？因為我們的財政就變差嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有這種推論！沒有這種推論！"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛剛是這個意思啊！不然是怎樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟你講，我給金門的補助款，113跟112比較的話，它的成長是9.7%！"],["陳委員玉珍：那個我知道，我們的補助款，我們很努力爭取，這是……"],["朱主計長澤民：你們很努力爭取，全部縣市……"],["陳委員玉珍：你說的是總額，我說是比例，一樣建設下來，第三級的縣市比例補助多少，比如說它……"],["朱主計長澤民：不是，我們訂定財政收支方法，就是要讓窮的能夠得到更多一點的補助。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，主計長，我只是想請問你，我們金門縣很辛苦，我們為什麼就是要比澎湖跟馬祖……"],["朱主計長澤民：大家都很辛苦啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：多兩級？我們自己出的錢，就是要多出很多，比如他們補助90，如果馬祖跟澎湖同樣做一個建設，他們是補助大概90%，他們只要自己出10%，但我們要自己出比如18%、20%，這樣真的不公平啦！一樣都是離島，很不公平啊！就是我們金門高梁酒賣得比較好，因為我們金門很努力喝，你這樣子懲罰好學生……"],["朱主計長澤民：因為每一個縣市都是用同樣的標準。"],["陳委員玉珍：報告主計長，這個是懲罰好學生，對不對？你要讓我們把財政……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！這是一種光榮啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：讀書比較好，一直考90分，就是不給你多一點獎勵，如果你就考到50分，獎勵多一點、糖果給多一點，這樣子很不公平啦！你要不要思考一下，怎麼樣來幫助我們金門縣？我是希望降到跟馬祖、澎湖一樣第五級啦！不行的話，你至少讓我們第四級啊！我們怎麼跟新竹市比啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：這種不能用喊的啦！這個應該是有一致的……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是用喊的嘛！你看你是用近3年度決算審定之自有財源比率平均值嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。16個縣市，貴縣市排第4耶！"],["陳委員玉珍：現在排名第4，要降到第6才能變成第四級嘛！就是我們必須自有財源降低嘛，意思是酒要賺少一點，中央補助才可以多一點，就樣就是懲罰好學生，你理解我在說什麼嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛剛不是這個意思嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：財政部有考核，根據考核，好的我們有獎勵，考核不好的有扣款，貴縣……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我知道財政部那個部分，包括各個部會都有相關這個比例……"],["朱主計長澤民：對啊！你應該知道……"],["陳委員玉珍：我都知道。我只是要說在最根本的地方，希望來解決這個問題，就是分級裡頭，我們覺得不能跟新竹市比啦！他們有科學園區耶，對不對？我們跟馬祖、澎湖一樣都是離島縣市，我們的財政之所以好是因為自己真的很努力在經營金酒，金酒是最大的收入來源，大家都知道，不是因為其他的原因，也沒有天降橫財！在這樣的努力下，你至少要鼓勵我們對不對？在補助的部分，你今天不能讓我跟馬祖、澎湖一樣，至少讓我們到第四級……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員說明……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個部分，你是不是幫我們思考一下，不然我覺得當好學生，好像一直沒有受到鼓勵，您瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才講到因為是好學生，所以一般補助款增加的情形在縣市排名是第2，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道我們有增加補助款，但這是因為縣市政府要努力去寫計畫……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們在中央要努力跟各個部會要求、拜託、施壓，來增加相關各個計畫的補助款……"],["朱主計長澤民：不用施壓啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，主計長，你這個回去想一下，這個是本席在財政委員會的重點，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9715937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.82721875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.10284375,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":46.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.38659375,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.74909375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.760343750000004,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.67096875,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.27784375,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.30284375000001,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.20971875000001,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.69846875,"end":84.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.99659375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":101.51721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.51721875000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.90534375,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.19096875000001,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.97034375000001,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":127.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.45784375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.65159375000002,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.69346875000002,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.47784375,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.30346875,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.07971875,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.61971875,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.38284375,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.05784375000002,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.27721875,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.54721875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.08721875,"end":153.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.22221875,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.50909375,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":163.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.04034375,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.16159375,"end":169.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.05534375000002,"end":168.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.09721875000002,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.23971875,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.61846875,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.03159375,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.16659375,"end":185.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.18346875,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.65159375000002,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.82409375,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.37221875,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.26221875000002,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.88221875000002,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.89909375000002,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.70846875,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.62721875000003,"end":210.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.01909375000002,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.98471875,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.09846875000002,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.48221875000002,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.23721875,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.65846875000003,"end":227.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.26534375000003,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.72846875000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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平平是離島很不公平啊就是因為我們金人剛好就賣不掉但因為我們很努力我們金人很努力喝啊然後你這樣子懲罰好學生 這個報告主計長這個是懲罰好學生啊"},{"start":450.055,"end":453.558,"text":"對吧?你要讓我們把財政委員：陳玉珍．對吧?你要讓我們把財政委員．"},{"start":479.778,"end":498.431,"text":"你看你是用近3年度決算審定的自有財源比率的平均值嘛 自有財源比率的平均值嘛我們排名第6啦 現在排名第4 要降到第6才能變成第4級嘛 就是我們必須自有財源降低嘛"},{"start":499.031,"end":517.234,"text":"一時而後我們久的要賺少一點我們才可以中央補助多一點那你就是懲罰好學生你理解我在說什麼嗎對那個跟那個委員報告一下你剛剛不是這個意思嗎台政部有考核根據那個考核好的我們有獎勵考核不好的我們有那個是怎麼樣那個所謂的"},{"start":518.715,"end":522.657,"text":"我只是要說在最根本的地方我們希望來解決這個問題就是我們的這個分級裡頭我們覺得說我們不能跟新竹市比"},{"start":537.045,"end":537.065,"text":"﹚珍"},{"start":563.641,"end":580.213,"text":"至少到第4屆這個部分你是不是幫我們思考一下不然我覺得當好學生好像一直沒有受到鼓勵啊您了解我的意思嗎我剛才講到因為是好學生所以我們的一般補助款增加的是在縣市排名是第二謝謝"},{"start":581.714,"end":581.734,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":609.619,"end":609.639,"text":"參謀委員"}]}},{"id":"149796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69034cd053572f0aef2333e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:34:36 - 11:44:47","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":611,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:44:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:34:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時34分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，最近這幾天臺灣股市上兩萬點，台積電衝到了將近800元，我想這是全民都很振奮的消息，但是我們在關心台積電的先進製程，事實上我們知道整個半導體的產業還有成熟製程，而且成熟製程過去也是臺灣很強項，尤其全世界在缺車用晶片時，臺灣可以說是給全世界的車廠很大的幫忙，當時全世界需要這一些晶片的都來臺灣洽詢車用晶片，但是我在上一個會期事實上就有提到有關成熟製程，中國在紅海布局之下，我們擔心的是中國積極擴張成熟製程，未來會用以量來制價的方式，然後全世界成熟製程的市場又被中國用這種削價競爭、惡性補貼的方式來打壓我們的成熟製程。部長，這幾個月來我們部裡針對這樣一個情況有怎樣的因應措施嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，對於這樣一個狀況，我們有跟產業還有智庫交換意見，大致上是這樣，雖然叫成熟製程，但是它有特殊製程，也就是說，它跟IC設計商兩個一起來做RD的研發，它甚至是在40奈米、55奈米都有可能，可是因為特殊的製程就是很特定化，就不容易被取代，所以這個部分，其實我們的廠商也知道，就是要儘量朝特殊的製程來做，而不是那一種通用品的晶片，通用品的晶片非常有可能被中國大陸用紅海政策、低價政策來侵蝕國際的市場。","第二個，臺灣最好的就是跟很多廠商有非常好的信任關係，他們有長久合作時，要轉移相關的供應就不會那麼簡單，這個部分像委員剛才講的車用，車用非常重視安全，所以那個晶片其實都是成熟製程，但是它都是特定化，而且都會經過長期的安全驗證，這個部分就可以穩固他們的供應關係，所以我們一定會讓廠商朝這個方向做。再來，就是我們現在的智慧臺灣晶創計畫裡，也會導引我們的IC設計業者來做特殊製程規劃，這個部分也有助於我們臺灣……"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣晶創計畫就是指晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們是規劃10年要用3,000億的輔導跟投資。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們的具體作為是怎樣？"],["王部長美花：這個部分在經濟部，因為不同部會各有作法，經濟部的部分有幾個大項，包括IC設計的部分，我們怎麼樣讓國內的IC設計，比如原來它只會做28奈米，就讓它往十幾奈米推進，另外一個部分就是應用面，它可以多應用在高階特殊的，包括車用的、包括AI的或者是通訊這方面，都是比較有nich的，這就是我們在推進他們的部分，目前都在緊鑼密鼓的招標當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上針對我們剛才說的這個狀況，美國最近也不斷有新聞出來，包括美國商務部長雷蒙多也說，針對像電信、汽車、國防供應鏈會使用中國製成熟製程晶片的部分要重啟調查，美國採取這樣一個態度，如果我們臺灣現在的成熟製程也進入到了中國供應鏈，當它未來變成在美國重啟調查的對象，而我們臺灣的廠商會不會也進入到這個被調查對象？"],["王部長美花：應該是不會，目前這個部分看得非常明顯，我想我們產業很清楚，也就是說你在臺灣設計、你在臺灣製造的話，你賣給美國，不管是車商通訊或軍用的話都是安全的。"],["蔡委員易餘：都是安全？"],["王部長美花：對，這個部分對臺灣就是一個非常好的長期商機。"],["蔡委員易餘：如何來做一個切割？就是說同樣的晶片，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：會不會我又販賣到中國、然後又販賣到美國？"],["王部長美花：那個沒有關係，那是我們的販賣，沒有問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：販賣沒有問題？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是在製造的一個過程，我想要強調的就是，事實上賴清德在這幾個月來都說臺灣必須要建立所謂信賴的產業，就是我們應該要跟世界的民主同盟，我們應該要針對這樣一個產業鏈有自我保護，而不會讓中國利用他們滲透的方式，而且他們會用很多我剛剛講的方式，去惡意取得或者是用低價的削價競爭，或者是他們用後台來控制整個產業的技術，那我們要怎麼去防止這一塊，建立我們的信賴產業？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，所以現在在這樣一個國際的大局勢裡面，臺灣如果要賣到歐美市場，在臺灣設計、在臺灣生產是一個非常大的利基，疫後之後2022開始，我們的廠商在國外去參展或者他們和客戶有更多接觸時，其實臺灣的廠商發現這個議題，真的是在國際上，客戶都會問你說：「你是不是在臺灣做的？還是你在中國做的？」所以這個部分「在臺灣做」的信賴，其實是有很好的一個機會。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想建立國際對臺灣的信賴。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個當然我們需要每個廠商一起來投入，所以經濟部應該去輔導他們。"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：與其要短時間內去賺中國的錢，還不如現在建立好國際上對我們的信用，他們也相信我們，在這一塊我們會堅守我們的立場，我想這個是不是更重要？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：經濟部應該要去積極的輔導。"],["王部長美花：有，其實我們跟廠商在溝通的時候，廠商也很知道這樣一個國際的趨勢。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。再來，下一個要跟部長討論工輔法的問題，工輔法事實上就是要輔導這些工廠可以走向合法，工輔法上路也已經將近4年了，事實上這4年來我跟這些廠商常常都聚在一起，但是他們確實在工輔法的適用上遇到很大的挫折，現在我指的這一個挫折就是現在我們規定隔離綠帶要1.5公尺，我相信部長時常下鄉去看，他們過去是違法的工廠，但他們沒辦法，他們整個工廠就蓋好了在那裡，甚至我們知道工廠裡面有它的配線，有時還有天車，天車都已經設在那，你怎麼可能叫他為了配合隔離綠帶，把工廠打掉一半，然後把整個天車、把他們的梁柱都拆掉，那對他們來說是一個不可能做到的事，所以他們現在納管之後就只能按兵不動，然後每年繳納管費，他們也沒辦法有再進一步的作為，就是卡在這樣的一個隔離綠帶。部長，我們對這樣的隔離綠帶跟工輔法產生的，沒辦法輔導他們合法的這件事情所產生的扞格，你們沒有辦法有一個再進一步的作法嗎？"],["王部長美花：其實這一個部分有非常多的討論，廠商到需要留這個1.5米的時候，它需要土地合法，那要土地合法，其實是整個建築都要一起去看有沒有符合相關的建築法規。我們隔離綠帶其實在過往跟現在有很大的改變，第一個，它不需要先拆，它是在這個建築被審查的時候，一起來審，而不是說先拆一次，再拆第二次，這是第一個。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是部長，你知道他們在審的過程就得要投入成本，所以他們一定會預先預判，未來的下一步會遇到什麼困難，他們知道一旦要走到合法，因為隔離綠帶，就沒辦法走到合法，這一步它是不會去走的，因為要花很多錢。"],["王部長美花：但是這個部分我們其實非常願意用個案來告訴大家，像有一些已經解決這個問題的案例、成功的案例，讓大家知道可能有幾種模式是可以克服這個問題的，這個其實我們也非常願意……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係，我會再開幾個協調會或是類似公聽會。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們希望可以實質上讓這一些工廠走向合法，在沒有污染、不影響到周邊環境的情況之下，我們一定要想辦法讓它合法化，工廠合法化，他們要外銷、要做怎樣的方式，而且他們也是合法繳稅，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長以後再麻煩。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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能甚至是在40奈米、55奈米都有可能可是因為那個特殊的製程呢他就是很特定化那這個就不容易被取代所以我們這個部分其實我們的廠商也知道就是要盡量朝特殊的製程來做而不是那一種通用品的晶片通用品非常有可能中國大陸會用這個鴻海政策那個低價的政策來"},{"start":151.585,"end":151.625,"text":"﹚蔡易餘"},{"start":168.351,"end":168.471,"text":"﹚蔡易餘"},{"start":191.477,"end":193.539,"text":"台灣金創計畫是指晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案。我們是規劃10年要用3000億的輔導跟投資。我們的具體作為是怎樣?"},{"start":215.098,"end":217.501,"text":"這個部分在經濟部因為不同部會有做法那經濟部的部分有幾個大項包括這個IC設計的部分我們怎麼樣讓國內的IC設計要嘛有的從這個比如說原來它只會做28奈米"},{"start":229.815,"end":229.835,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":255.142,"end":273.687,"text":"美國事實上針對我們剛才講的這個總統美國最近也不斷的有新聞會出來包括美國商務部長雷蒙多也說針對像電信、汽車、國防供應鏈會使用中國製的成熟製成晶片要重啟調查"},{"start":275.207,"end":295.223,"text":"美國採取這樣的一個態度我們台灣如果現在這個純熟製程裡面會不會有就是純熟製程我們進入到了中國供應鏈那未來變成在美國重啟調查的對象然後我們台灣的廠商也進入到了這個被調查對象"},{"start":296.583,"end":310.368,"text":"應該是不會目前的這個部分就是看得非常明顯我想我們產業很清楚也就是說你在台灣設計你在台灣製造的話你賣給美國不管是車商、通訊或軍用的話都是安全的"},{"start":311.649,"end":323.057,"text":"對,那這個部分對台灣就是一個非常好的長期的商機。那如何來做一個切割,就是說我同樣晶片嘛,對不對?對。那我會不會說我又有販賣到中國,然後又要賣到美國?欸,那個沒有關係,那個是我們的販賣,那個沒有問題。販賣沒有問題,但是在製造的一個過程。對,我想要強調就是說,"},{"start":330.703,"end":356.154,"text":"市長賴清德他在這幾個月來都說台灣必須要建立所謂信賴的產業就是我們應該要跟世界的一個民主同盟然後我們應該要針對這樣的一個產業鏈我們有一個自我保護而不會讓中國利用他們滲透的方式而且他們會用很多一些我剛剛講的就是說去惡意取得或者是用低價的銷價競爭或者是他們用後台在控制"},{"start":356.674,"end":356.874,"text":"蔡易餘"},{"start":372.765,"end":372.805,"text":"﹚蔡易餘"},{"start":398.302,"end":421.34,"text":"﹗"},{"start":421.36,"end":421.48,"text":"蔡易餘議員"},{"start":436.391,"end":466.391,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":466.731,"end":489.699,"text":"他們過去是違法的工廠,他們就沒辦法,他們整個工廠就棄好啊,棄好在那裏,甚至工廠我們知道他裏面有他的配線,有時都有天車,那天車都盡用在那裏,那你怎麼可能叫他為了配合隔離綠帶,然後把工廠把它打掉一半,然後把整個天車,把他們的樑柱都把它拆掉。"},{"start":491.111,"end":515.108,"text":"那對他們來說這是一個不可能做到的事所以他們現在就只能納管之後然後就只能按兵不動然後每年是繳納管費他們也沒辦法再進一步的作為就是卡在這樣的一個隔離綠帶那部長我們對上隔離綠帶跟功夫法產生的這樣沒辦法輔導他們合法這件事情產生的漢革應該沒有辦法有一個"},{"start":516.188,"end":540.761,"text":"在進一步的作法嗎?其實這個部分有非常多的討論那廠商到需要留這個1.5米的時候是他要去土地合法那土地合法的時候他其實整個建築都要一起去看他這個建築有沒有符合相關的建築法規那我們隔離地帶其實在過往跟現在有很大的改變說第一個他不需要先拆他是在這個建築的時候"},{"start":542.662,"end":564.22,"text":"被審的時候一起來審。而不是說先猜一次再猜第二次。對,但是部長你知道他們在審的過程他們就得要投入成本啊。所以他們一定會預先預判到說我未來的下一步我會遇到什麼困難。所以他們知道一旦我要走到合法我因為隔離綠帶我就沒辦法走到合法。這一步他是不會去走的。"},{"start":564.56,"end":569.043,"text":"但是我們這個部分我們其實非常願意用個案來告訴大家像有一些已經解決這個問題的部分的案例成功的案例讓大家知道可能有幾種模式是可以克服這個問題的那這個其實我們也非常願意到我會再開幾個協調會或是公聽會我們希望可以實質上"},{"start":589.514,"end":589.694,"text":"蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"149795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e24049879b34c76b14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a67082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:26:55 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其實上一次計算報告是110年那在109年的時候我們基金餘額是7625億那到現在為止我的基金餘額到1月是9088億我記得這幾年透過撥補透過我們的投資老保基金的投資運用其實我們的這個基金的"},{"start":214.358,"end":219.98,"text":"那個財務是有增加增加1463億那我是跟委員報告就是說這種撥補也好投資運用也好這個都是讓我們財務能夠穩定那撥補的部分我們也持續先暫停你的回答因為每一次告訴我們就是這個方向"},{"start":234.324,"end":248.553,"text":"但是每一次一小段時間就會告訴我們我們如果不怎麼樣呢那我們就會這個勞保金捐就會倒這個聲音在民眾的身上已經很痛苦了會倒會破產這都是媒體的報導我一向我們都是講說這是政府辦的社會保險勞工安心政府一定會負最後幾分責任這是媒體說的"},{"start":260.38,"end":272.128,"text":"但是人家有這樣的疑慮你就要去提出方案不管任何方案因為在你的立場就不是要保證他真的不能倒嘛我們勞工才會安心啊當然這是你的工作所以來本期跟你討論勞退新制2005年實行到現在幾年啊"},{"start":288.259,"end":315.838,"text":"啊?勞退新制到現在幾年啊?201818年18年了嘛吼那我們法定的這個雇主是6%嘛吼那其中還有一個也就是2003年的這個勞退自體率我們統計了你有新的政策你就要去看他的結果那這個統計出來是2003年那個勞退自體的部分是14%"},{"start":317.919,"end":340.776,"text":"那顯示還有大概740萬勞工裡頭有600萬那麼86%他希望扣我自己啦我不要自體那到底為什麼呢因為自體就是尊重他個人的意願當然啊那他不願意提可能是說他表示你的政策人就是怕你會倒啊所以人家不要自體啊 對不對每一次都告訴我們絕對不會倒然後一段時間又告訴我們有可能會倒自體不會倒啦"},{"start":347.32,"end":354.802,"text":"當然啊!當然啊!那可是人家不要自體啊!對啊!個人帳戶不會倒啊!但是為什麼你的執行率是如此?本期要跟你討論的是說當你提出一個政策之後那為什麼你的執行率不高?"},{"start":372.705,"end":384.569,"text":"你聽我說具體不高有的是勞工他自己可以去投資應用他可以到自由金融市場去投資應用也有人因為他的經濟負擔他認為他沒有辦法有餘裕再去製體"},{"start":387.35,"end":402.199,"text":"也就是有這樣的疑慮那你各種的政策出來你要再去看他的結果他的結果如果不是你的KPI指數指標出來的時候那你們可以再去這樣調整對不對這個才是你要做的事情嘛當然啊"},{"start":408.403,"end":422.347,"text":"我會努力來讓字體會 這個等於說鼓勵勞工徒續你要去努力嘛 而不是原因 當然人家不信任你 人家當然不要啊有我原因啦 我會介紹給你聽啦 但是KPI要提高 我會再拍片啦要努力齁 好 那你把你的方案 你可能提高的"},{"start":430.37,"end":447.989,"text":"那個效能的方案你提出來好不好最後一個議題我給他一個功課就好三八婦女節剛過那麼我們針對於女性面臨勞動薪資的部分同工不同酬那麼我們也看到101年的參與率首次破了五成"},{"start":448.63,"end":467.162,"text":"那麽提升到51點七三percent但是我們也有很多的學者也警示我們在職場的方面對於女性呢他是不夠友善也缺乏彈性所以部長我給你一個功課我要拜託你影響女性參動力的一個參與率呢他的"},{"start":468.282,"end":496.659,"text":"這個重要因素他沒有辦法提高到底是什麼因為你們維持定期的三年的婦女在就業計畫裡頭你有鼓勵你有鼓勵因為婚姻因素退出的希望能夠重返這個職場所以我要你一個資料也就是我們看到的是這樣子的但是是不夠友善的那你要怎麼樣如何幫助兩線金權怎麼樣協助女性在勞動市場方面她可以更安心"},{"start":497.119,"end":502.485,"text":"他也願意更走出來你帶他去協助嘛好不好你把方案給我好不好你把方案給本席謝謝因為等一下要處理臨時提案"}]}},{"id":"149794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e0f87feffade2d5014b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6f1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:08:44 - 11:26:45","影片長度":"00:18:01","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":1081,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:26:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:08:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時8分）謝謝主席。請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。針對消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約（CEDAW），我們的國家報告是4年要報告一次，對不對？然後這4年裡面，我們最近的一次報告是111年的第四次國家報告，會議結論在性平意見上有關的當中，有一個叫家庭育兒和工作的平衡，你知道它關切的重點是什麼嗎？"],["許部長銘春：就是讓……"],["林委員淑芬：消除對婦女所有一切的歧視、CEDAW公約，我們的國家報告，跟你們的業務有關的是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：應該就是能夠在育兒上有更友善的措施。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講，為了提升婦女人權，促進性別平等的重要成果，它公開發表了86點的結論性意見還有建議。跟你們最直接相關的第49點和第50點是這樣說的，第49點說臺灣已經列為全球最低出生率的國家之一，國際審查委員會發現造成這個現象的關鍵因素是非常薄弱、零散且模糊的產假和育嬰制度。儘管臺灣的育嬰制度最近有一些彈性，但仍然很僵化，所以國際審查委員會關切臺灣的育嬰假制度現在主要是仰賴雇主的貢獻。","第50點就講到，國際委員會建議政府研究並參考國際經驗改善育嬰假制度，以設計一個永續和彈性的制度為目標，讓所有利益相關者一起分擔費用，以增進國家利益。它一直在建議要改善育嬰假制度，我們都知道針對這個國家報告，我們要採取行動方針、要訂出績效指標，對不對？你知道嗎？你們訂了什麼？你們知道嗎？你們的績效指標，還是你們的行動方針是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分勞動部還是持續在研議當中，我知道委員……"],["林委員淑芬：如果你不知道，業務單位知不知道？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分我們持續會有一些更精進的方式……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問你們的績效指標、行動方針是什麼？111年到現在，4年一次，115年你們就要針對你們採取了什麼行動、有了什麼關鍵的績效指標要回復出來、要做報告！部長不知道，業務單位也不知道？那我跟你報告，既然你不知道，換我跟你報告好了。今年2月你們就公開了CEDAW第四次國家報告行動回應表112年的辦理情形，你們的具體行動方針、你們的具體行動就是加強宣導職場平權概念，關鍵的績效指標是1年要辦25場宣導會，讓勞工瞭解自身權益、雇主要遵守法令。你們的行動方針是辦宣導會，績效指標是要達到1年辦25次。人家說你的育嬰假要改善，你說好，你來宣導平權，1年辦25次就代表績效達到了，這樣未免太便宜行事了吧？部長，這樣會不會太簡單？這樣會不會就虛與委蛇？你們在115年要報告具體的推動成果，難道你要跟國際審查委員會說，你已經辦了1年，不是辦25場，而是辦26場的宣導，要這樣子講嗎？人家說你要改善你的育嬰假制度，要建立一個更有彈性、不僵化的，你卻說你去宣導了。部長，這樣夠嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個當然不夠。不過有關育嬰假的部分，我剛剛其實要表達，我責成業務單位一定要做一些研議、規劃。"],["林委員淑芬：我們已經跟你建請多少年了？至少我們開過公聽會，至少這5年內也都一直不斷地跟你說，希望能有一個更好、更彈性親子假的架構，都跟你們講了！但我今天要說，你們部裡面始終認為育嬰留職停薪有做就是了。你們大概檢視了兩個到底有沒有做，第一個就是申請育嬰留職停薪的勞工有意願重返原工作崗位，你們認為這個就是指標；第二個、你們認為雇主願意提供原工作的比例上升了。他有意願再重返職場，雇主讓他返回原來工作崗位的意願也提高了，你們認為這樣就叫達標了，事實上重返職場、重返工作崗位這樣子就算是達標了嗎？我們希望你對申請育嬰留職停薪勞工的職涯變化還要進行長期追蹤。我們發現你們自己的勞安所其實也有一份長期的追蹤報告，勞安所研究發現，申請育嬰留職停薪者相較於未請領者有較高的離職率，也建議未來研究可以納入婚育離職者和未離職者的比較，更深度檢驗育嬰留職停薪政策的成效。","我在這裡要強調，我們不反對育嬰留職停薪，但是透過勞安所這份研究，更證明維持女性的勞參率，即維持生兒、養小孩以前的勞參率，不是只有靠育嬰留職停薪。不要每次談到家庭跟工作生活要平衡，你就說有育嬰留職停薪假，提高了經濟性的補貼，就叫我們要住嘴，不是的！第一個、國家勞動力短缺，你們動不動就說開放外籍移工、開放外籍幫傭、開放外籍勞工，不只是那樣子！我們的婦女勞參率從剛出社會的90%下降到生完小孩10年以後剩百分之四十幾。臺灣的婦女勞參勞率沒有辦法重返生小孩之前，要留住臺灣這一些專業認真的女性勞動者，你們要拿出來的不是只有育嬰留職停薪假。","為什麼我要這麼說？你來看育兒婦女就業歷程探討提升勞動參與意願的可行性報告，這是你們勞安所108年的報告。以2007年持續就業這一群來看，育兒第1年的勞參率79%，他養小孩養到最後1年剩下45%。我們也知道養小孩的第1年還是很多人會留在職場，但是他要面臨幾個階段：第一個階段大幅下降的就是在第3年、小孩大概送托兒所了，送托兒所就經常容易生病、感冒、腸病毒，婦女要帶回家自己顧5天、顧7天，東奔西跑，結果大幅滑落，-8.9%。再來第6年要念小學了，反而滑落，-3.4%，因為家長要陪伴孩子、關心他的教育，發生問題要跟學校老師溝通，所以還需要很多、很彈性的時間。但是大部分的狀況不友善、沒有配套，讓他還是選擇離職。追蹤到最後1年，即第12年之後剩下45.5%。你看得出來婦女的勞動參與率一去不復返，因為有很多臨時狀況，所以育兒的女性一旦退出職場以後，就沒有再重返職場，這個才是國家勞動力最大的隱憂。然而你們大概想沒關係，有外勞、外籍移工，也有外籍幫傭。婦女要二度就業大概重返什麼的門檻最低，你知道嗎？也有部分的婦女會去做到宅保母、居家清潔，結果開放外籍幫傭，他們又繼續失業了。","接下來，孩子6歲以前，婦女多選擇直接離開職場，但是小孩年齡比較大、可以上學以後，他就會開始採取兼職。我們現在以高所得跟低所得來看，不管高低所得，大家覺得所得這麼高的婦女大概不會離開職場吧？薪水這麼高、這麼好，你就去請外傭來幫傭、幫忙帶小孩就好了！有人幫你帶小孩、煮飯、清潔、打掃，這麼高薪，你不會離開職場吧？事實上不然，你看，高所得者生完小孩後第1年還有82.8%，到第12年剩下47.1%，這樣下降了多少？你看低所得的人76.6%，追蹤到最後一年是43%，一樣大幅滑落，你不要以為很有成就感、所得很高的婦女就願意繼續留在職場，其實他還是有很多的需求。","所以我們今天在這邊要跟大家講說，育嬰留職停薪者即便申請也只是0到3歲，0到3歲以後他還是有就業、有薪資所得的需求，有申請過育嬰留職停薪而後持續就業的，跟一般整體不管有沒有的平均數來比，他還是比較低。其實很多人是因為經濟因素，所以他不能夠沒有收入，他必須要有收入還必須要兼顧育兒，所以在這樣的狀況下，我們一直在跟你溝通，引導育兒女性重返職場，不只是育嬰留職停薪假，也不只有顧小孩的外傭，你看，到6歲之後還是繼續在滑落，不是6歲以後就不用再陪著這個小孩。所以我們也希望著眼於避免育兒女性退出職場，有薪彈性的親職假很重要，它的彈性在於，如果育兒留職停薪的假是2個月、60天，讓它開放到以天、以半天、以小時的方案，然後有薪資補貼，當然原本就是就保繼續付，也沒有叫雇主付；並且對雇主來講也很友善，生育婦女不是一次請2個月，也不是一次請1個月，他也不用半年內分2次請，對雇主來講是以天為單位，他比較好搭配，不用再請一個人來替補人力，總共天數就是6個月，抱歉，我剛剛講錯，是6個月，所以不是2個月，我剛剛一直講錯，這6個月裡面你讓他慢慢彈性的去請，如果你讓他一次請3個月或6個月，對雇主的衝擊比這個彈性的作法還更大啊，對不對？部長，一次請6個月跟一次請1天、6天，哪一個對雇主衝擊比較大？"],["許部長銘春：主要是它人力的運用還有替代的人會不會不好找，本來是想說這種零碎化的方式可能比較難找人，沒關係，委員……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，6個月，雇主還要找一個人來替補他，3個月也要……"],["許部長銘春：對啊。"],["林委員淑芬：但6天跟1天他比較好找人、找替補的。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，有些輪班的公司如果是1小時、2小時，這對它會比較困難，因為它沒有辦法去找這種1小時的人力來替換。所以……"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣講的話，你們的鼓勵婦女再就業計畫裡面寫到獎勵雇主提供有照顧需求女性勞工調整或縮短工作時數，這個方案你就不用做了啊，照你所說的，你們提供了雇主對有照顧家庭需求的婦女提供工時調整或部分工時調整，每個職缺每個月發給3,000元，最長12個月，最高獎勵3萬6,000元，這個方案到113年2月29號截止，你們發了687個職缺去補助，並且要透過獎勵去引導雇主縮短工作時數，讓育兒女性有彈性，你還要給錢，但你現在又說這個對於排班的公司來講是很困難的，你的這個政策跟你剛才所講的是矛盾的。"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係，等一下還要處理臨時提案，是不是趕快做一個……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我趕快做一個結束。","首先，你覺得這個部分就是應該要彈性化，而且你要有獎勵，你還發給雇主最高一年3萬6,000元的獎勵。"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，那個彈性化跟我剛剛講的那個不太一樣，我剛剛是講說……"],["林委員淑芬：你的是說提供雇主有照顧小孩需求的女性，調整或縮短工作時數耶！"],["主席：林委員，是不是等一下請勞動部這邊會後跟你說明？"],["許部長銘春：我再書面跟你答復好了，比較清楚。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，我們的意思是說我們要的是有薪的彈性親子假，因為彈性的親子假才能留住女性的勞動率，他不能夠沒有工作、沒有收入，可是又要照顧小孩。"],["許部長銘春：委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我們希望友善一點，也不是只有到6歲為止，甚至整個小學階段都還是很多問題，小學階段如果有腸病毒，一放都7天啊。"],["許部長銘春：委員，這一題我有在處理，我請業務單位去跟您報告，我們可能會擬試辦計畫。而我剛剛在跟你講的是說，不是每個行業都有辦法這樣做，但我們先就可以做的行業先試辦看看，我請業務單位去跟您充分說明。"],["林委員淑芬：以前不是每個行業都可以一例一休……"],["主席：林委員，可不可以先做……"],["林委員淑芬：我們也是先訂了啊，對不對？"],["主席：是不是請勞動部等一下會後再跟你說明？"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，我知道。我是說育兒的需求完整來講，像小學階段要到12歲，彈性化的話要很久，我剛剛講腸病毒一放假就是7天，整個小學階段都是；也不是只有照顧這個小孩到6歲而已，不是只有這樣而已。"],["主席：謝謝。請勞動等一下會後再跟林委員說明。"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝。"],["主席：我在這邊做一個宣告，等一下林月琴委員質詢結束後處理臨時提案。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agend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和工作的平衡他關切的重點是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":50.578,"end":63.883,"text":"消除婦女所有一切的歧視CEDAW公約我們的國家報告跟你們的業務有關的是什麼應該就是能夠在育兒上有更友善的措施"},{"start":65.922,"end":79.406,"text":"我先來講他為了提升婦女人權和促進性別平等的重要成果他公開發表了86點的結論性意見還有建議那跟你們最直接相關第49點和第50點是這樣說的"},{"start":83.047,"end":101.905,"text":"第49說台灣已經列為全球最低出生率的國家之一國際審查委員會發現造成這個現象的關鍵因素是非常薄弱零散且模糊的產價和育嬰制度儘管台灣的育嬰制度最近有一些彈性"},{"start":102.566,"end":111.472,"text":"但他仍然很僵化所以這個國際審查委員會他關切育嬰價制度我們台灣現在仰賴主要是仰賴雇主的貢獻那第50點當然就講到說這個國際委員會建議政府研究並參考國際經驗改善育嬰價制度以設計一個永續和彈性的制度為目標讓所有利益相關者一起分擔費用以增進國家利益"},{"start":133.306,"end":146.311,"text":"所以他一直在建議說改善育嬰假制度改善育嬰假制度你要我們都知道說針對這個國家報告我們要採取行動方針要訂出績效指標嘛對不對你知道嗎?"},{"start":146.311,"end":146.351,"text":"你們訂什麼?"},{"start":146.351,"end":146.571,"text":"你們知道嗎?"},{"start":146.571,"end":147.651,"text":"你們的績效指標還是你們的行動方針是什麼?"},{"start":159.079,"end":170.233,"text":"報告委員因為這個部分我們勞動部還是在持續在研議當中因為這個其實委員我知道您沒有啊你如果不知道你業務單位知不知道"},{"start":172.664,"end":193.575,"text":"這個部分的話就是我們持續的會有一些更...我在問你們的績效指標是什麼行動方針111年到現在勒4年一次115年你們就要針對你們採取了什麼行動有了什麼關鍵的績效指標你們要回復出來勒你們要做報告勒部長不知道業務單位也不知道"},{"start":196.158,"end":199.42,"text":"我跟你報告好了今年你們2月就公開了CEDAW第4次國家報告的行動回應表112年的辦理情形你們的具體行動方針你們具體行動就是"},{"start":214.531,"end":231.776,"text":"加強宣導職場平權概念關鍵的績效指標是一年要辦25場的宣導會讓勞工要了解自身權益顧主要遵守法令你們的行動方針是辦宣導會然後呢"},{"start":235.937,"end":248.363,"text":"計效指標是要達到25次一年半25次人家講說你的育嬰價要改善你說好我來宣導宣導平權那我一年半25次代表我績效達到了"},{"start":250.408,"end":269.176,"text":"這樣子未免太便宜行事了吧?保證這樣會太簡單了嗎?這樣會不會就虛以為疑啊?這樣子你們在115年你們要報告你們具體的推動成果難道你要跟國際審查委員會說我已經辦了一年我不是辦25場我辦26場的宣導要這樣子講嗎?人家說你要改善你的育嬰假的制度"},{"start":278.76,"end":283.59,"text":"要建立一個更有彈性的不僵化的你說我去宣導了保證這樣會搞"},{"start":288.702,"end":309.375,"text":"這個檔案不夠啦,不過我知道就是運價的部分我剛其實要表達是說我也責成我們的那個業務單位這個部分一定要去做一些研議規劃我們已經跟你建請多少年了我至少我們開過工地會然後這幾年至少這五年內我們也不斷都一直不斷的跟你講說我們有一個更好的更彈性的親子價的架構"},{"start":314.719,"end":317.402,"text":"都跟你們講了但我今天要講說你們部裡面始終認為說啊我育英留子停薪有做就是了所以你們在這裡面大概檢視了兩個說我到底有沒有做第一個當然就是說"},{"start":332.869,"end":356.602,"text":"這個申請育嬰留職停薪的勞工他有意願重返員工作崗位你們認為這個就是指標第二個你們也認為說顧子武願意提供員工作的這個意願比例也上升了你們就覺得他有意願再重返職場第二個顧子武也願意讓他返回原來的職位"},{"start":357.663,"end":372.678,"text":"而的意願也提高了反為原來的工作崗位你們認為這樣就叫達標了但是呢我們來跟你講說事實上這個重返職場重返工作崗位這樣子就算是達標了嗎"},{"start":375.29,"end":398.248,"text":"所以我們希望你是要對申請了育嬰流子停薪的勞工你還要進行長期的這個追蹤他的職業變化然後呢我們發現你們自己這個安慰所其實有一個一份長期的追蹤報告那安慰所裡面他研究發現申請育嬰流子停薪者相較於未勤領者"},{"start":399.429,"end":423.019,"text":"有較高的離職率那也建議未來研究可以納入婚育離職者和未離職者的比較更深度的去檢驗育嬰留職停薪政策的成效但我們在這裡要強調這個我們不反對育嬰留職停薪但是透過你們安慰所這份研究我們更要證明提升勞參率"},{"start":425.64,"end":451.147,"text":"維持女性的勞參率不要講提升啦維持生兒養小孩以前的勞參率維持他不是這個只有靠育嬰留子停薪不要每次談到說家庭跟工作生活要平衡你就說啊我們有育嬰留子停薪假提高了經濟性的補貼然後就叫我們要住嘴不是的"},{"start":451.96,"end":460.205,"text":"第一個國家勞動力短缺你們動不動就說開放外籍移工開放外籍幫傭開放外籍勞工不只是那樣子我們的婦女勞參率從剛出社會我們的90%的勞動參與率下降到生小孩後重返勞動到這個生完小孩10年以後勞參率剩40幾%"},{"start":478.456,"end":497.334,"text":"台灣的婦女勞參率沒有辦法重返生小孩之前然後留住台灣的這一些專業的認真的女性的勞動者你們要拿出來不是只有育嬰留子停薪假為什麼要這麼講說你來看你們自己"},{"start":498.876,"end":516.005,"text":"這個安慰所我們從這個育兒婦女就業歷程探討提升勞動參與率參與意願的可行性你們勞研所109年的報告你看2004年他做了204年這一批的他持續就業的這一群來看"},{"start":517.146,"end":522.553,"text":"他這個育兒第一年他勞參率還在看2007好了2007持續就業的200779%他養小孩養到最後一年剩下45%"},{"start":531.934,"end":549.542,"text":"那我們也知道養小孩的第一年還是很多人會留在職場但是呢他要面臨幾個階段第一個階段大幅下降的就是小孩在這個第三年大概送托兒所了送托兒所就經常發生"},{"start":551.621,"end":561.033,"text":"融於生病感冒藏病毒婦女要帶回家自己顧顧天顧七天而大家總來總去就這個大幅滑落-8.9再來第6年要念小學了他反而滑落了-3.4"},{"start":569.364,"end":587.433,"text":"小學孩子家長的這個陪伴然後關心他的教育發生問題了然後跟學校老師要溝通所以他還需要的時間要很談判也要很多但是呢大部分的不友善的狀況沒有配套的狀況他還是選擇這個離職追蹤到最後一年第12年之後呢剩下45.5"},{"start":594.657,"end":599.459,"text":"所以你看得出來婦女的勞動參與率一去不復繁在這種狀況裡面很多臨時狀況但是我們看到婦育兒的女性一旦退出職場以後就沒有再重返職場這個才是國家勞動力"},{"start":616.087,"end":616.467,"text":"所以我現在看第二接下來"},{"start":643.17,"end":661.584,"text":"那6歲以前啊婦女都選擇直接離開職場但是呢年齡比較大的時候可以上學以後他就會開始採取兼職然後那我們現在看高所得跟低所得來看高低所得不管你大家覺得你所得這麼高的婦女你大概不會離開職場吧薪水這麼高這麼好你就去請外傭來幫傭幫忙帶小孩就好了"},{"start":669.15,"end":671.833,"text":"帶小孩有人幫你帶小孩煮飯清潔打掃這麼高興你不會離開職場吧事實上不然啊事實上不然你看"},{"start":680.998,"end":696.569,"text":"高所得者生完小孩要第一年他有82.8%到那個第12年剩下47.1%這樣下降了多少你看低所得的人76.6然後追蹤到最後一年43.0一樣大幅滑落你不要以為很有成就感所得很高的婦女他就願意他就願意繼續留在職場"},{"start":708.905,"end":715.279,"text":"哦其實他他還是有很多的這個需求所以今天在這裡我們今天要跟大家講說"},{"start":718.705,"end":744.034,"text":"這個獄嬰劉子廷新者他即便申請那也只是前0到3歲0到3歲0到3歲以後呢0到3歲以後他還是繼續有這個就業的這個需求但是呢他還是有薪資所得的需求但是呢還會再重返就業的他持續就業比"},{"start":745.339,"end":765.295,"text":"有申請過應留職停薪的持續就業的跟一般整體不管有沒有的平均數來比他還是比較低啊那我們今天講說其實很多人是需要經濟經濟因素他是不能夠沒有收入而他必須要有收入然後還必須要兼顧育兒所以這種狀況裡面呢"},{"start":769.423,"end":784.077,"text":"我們看到說我們一直在跟你溝通喔引導育兒女性重返職場不只是這個育嬰留子停薪假也不只是只有這個顧小孩的外傭顧小孩你看看他六歲六歲之後他還是繼續在滑落"},{"start":788.001,"end":807.818,"text":"他不是6歲以後就不用再陪著這個小孩所以我們也希望說著眼於避免育兒的女性退出職場有心彈性的親職假他很重要他的彈性在於說如果我們育兒留職停薪假是兩個月嘛60天嘛"},{"start":808.599,"end":831.035,"text":"那你讓他開放到一天一半天一小時為這個方案然後呢新資補貼這個當然原來就是舊保繼續付也沒有叫雇主付然後對雇主來講也很有善啊我的這個生育的婦女不是一次請兩個月也不是一次請半個一個月"},{"start":832.236,"end":851.903,"text":"然後呢他也不用說半年裡面分兩次請對僱主來講他是可能以天為單位他比較好搭配他不用再去請一個人來這個替補這個人力然後總共的天數就是啊抱歉就是總共的天數就是6個月啦我剛剛講錯了是6個月所以不是兩個月是我剛剛一直講錯了6個月"},{"start":855.344,"end":862.868,"text":"這6個月裡面你讓他慢慢的彈性的去那你讓僱主說一次請3個月或是一次請6個月對僱主的衝擊比這個彈性還更大對不對部長一天請6個月跟一天請6天都一個對僱主的衝擊比較大"},{"start":873.206,"end":892.491,"text":"就是說主要是他人力的運用還有替代的這個會不會不好找人因為本來想說那種零碎化可能比較難找人但沒關係我這麼不是啦6個月僱主還要找一個人來替補他嘛3個月也要對啊但6天跟1天"},{"start":893.611,"end":915.38,"text":"他比較好找人找替報告你就是有些輪班的公司他如果是一小時或兩小時那個對他會比較困難因為他沒有辦法去找這種一小時的人力來那你這樣子講的話你這個鼓勵婦女在就業計畫裡面你講到說獎勵僱主提供有照顧需求女性勞工調整或縮短工作時數"},{"start":916.48,"end":928.492,"text":"你這個方案你等門責啊叫你講欸你們提供了雇主對有照顧家庭需求的婦女提供工時調整或部分工時調整每一個職缺每個月發給3000元最長12個月最高獎勵36000元然後你們這個方案要做到113年2月29號截止你們發了687個職缺去補助"},{"start":940.043,"end":966.346,"text":"然後你們要透過獎律去引導雇主縮短工作時數育兒女性以薪資讓他們有彈性你還要給錢那你現在又說這個對排班的公司來講是很困難的你的這個政策跟你剛剛所講的是矛盾的林委員是因為時間的關係等一下還要處理臨時提案我趕快做一個結束好了"},{"start":968.058,"end":987.205,"text":"首先你這個東西就認為說應該要彈性化而且你要有獎勵你還發給雇主最高一年三萬六的獎勵那個彈性化跟剛剛我講的不太一樣你的是說提供雇主有照顧需求的女性有照顧小孩需求的女性調整或縮短工作時數那個林委員是不是等一下請勞動部這邊"},{"start":999.946,"end":1012.317,"text":"我們要的是這個有心的這個彈性親子嫁啦因為事實上呢彈性親子嫁才能留住這個女性的勞動率啦"},{"start":1012.998,"end":1040.348,"text":"當然不能夠沒有工作沒有收入可是又要照顧小孩我們需要友善一點也不是只有到6歲為止甚至整個小學階段都還是很多問題小學階段一放一放那個長病毒一放都7天啊這題我有在處理我請業務單位去跟你們報告啦我們可能有會你示範計畫啦我剛剛在跟你講說不是每個行業都有辦法這樣子做但是我們先對先就可以做的行業先來示範看看啦我請業務單位去給你們"},{"start":1042.129,"end":1069.337,"text":"以前不是每個行業都可以一例一休我們也是先訂了啊 對不對是不是請那個勞動部等一下會議對啦我知道啦但是我跟你講說育兒的需求要到完整來講像小學階段要到12歲談性話其實要很久我剛剛講藏病毒就是7天他整個小學階段通通都要那也不是只有照顧"},{"start":1070.177,"end":1080.944,"text":"而這個小孩到6歲而已不是只有這樣子而已好謝謝請勞動部等一下會後再跟林委員說明好那我在這邊做一個宣告"}]}},{"id":"149793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690341a7fbda99891648b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a60385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:25:05 - 11:36:20","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":675,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:36:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:25:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時25分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好，辛苦了！本席請教一下，我看到今天的報紙中有提到，美國年度預算首度獨列臺灣，美國拜登政府2025年度預算，其中有一筆預算是1億美元，這是對於臺灣安全的歷史性投資，這也是一個國際友臺制中的高度政治意義。可是就預算法來探討，這種編列方式的法律效果有什麼差異，也就是單獨編列這筆預算，過去是沒有的，按照主計處來講的話，這筆預算單獨列出來有沒有什麼特別意義在？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，詳細的細節我不曉得，它到底是給我們錢，還是給我們物資，它可能是一個……"],["李委員坤城：不管是錢還是物資，因為過去都沒有單獨編列一筆預算是特別針對臺灣的，我的意思是，像我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情，等於是現在拜登政府特別編列了1億要協助臺灣安全，這個預算編列上面有沒有什麼特殊的意義在？"],["朱主計長澤民：這表示美國政府對臺灣堅決的支持，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：它的政治意義就是堅決支持臺灣。"],["朱主計長澤民：而且它既然有做這個事情，就表示它嚴格執行臺灣關係法。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是要請教，因為它有特別把它單獨編列，之前可能是跟其他印太地區編在一起，有特別把它提出來，只是就這種編列方式在預算法上的意義來請教主計長，剛剛主計長也說這個是有特別的法律關係，有其效益在。","本席再請教，112年全國賦稅收入又創歷史新高，年增兩千餘億元，高出預算數3,900億元，連續第3年優於預期，但是超收不等於國庫的年度賸餘，因為還要經過審計部的決算程序，產生歲計賸餘，透過預算法的程序，才可以編列使用。本席請教112年的歲計賸餘，主計處初步估計剩下多少、有沒有特別使用的規劃方向？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們初步估計大概剩下1,500億，這1,500億的話……"],["李委員坤城：後來就剩下1,500億左右而已？"],["朱主計長澤民：所謂的三千九百多億是包括地方政府，另外，我們的錢在法令上有規定要提多少作為償債基金償債之用，而且我們的特別預算也有借錢，所以把那些扣掉以後大概只剩下1,500億，我不能有歲計賸餘，然後又去跟銀行借錢。"],["李委員坤城：所以真正可以使用的就是1,500億就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有什麼特殊的用途呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們任何的……"],["李委員坤城：比如像經濟部就希望台電的虧損，政府可以來補貼。"],["朱主計長澤民：經濟部有他們的想法，他們的想法如果經過行政院以及院長同意，院會通過以後就要編列預算，編列預算要送到大院通過才能使用。"],["李委員坤城：主計長的想法呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須說明主計總處只是就錢財用的合不合法，至於政策性要怎麼處理，我們不能夠用錢去管它的政策，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：本席再請教主計長，物價指數上漲率2%，主計長覺得這個數字看起來怎麼樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得2%上下大家不要過於悲觀或樂觀，因為一般物價過分的負成長或是接近零的話，都可能有通貨緊縮的疑慮，像現在的中國大陸。"],["李委員坤城：2%算是溫和，還是已經到了警戒？"],["朱主計長澤民：溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和。"],["李委員坤城：主計長講了好多次溫和，還沒有超過警戒就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為在110年之前都沒有超過2%，111年、112年連續2年超過，在過年這段時間，今年2月又達到3.08%，再加上台電的電價有可能調整，所以在野黨也有批評。國發會主委龔明鑫也說電價漲了10%，大概會推升CPI上漲0.2到0.3，全年CPI增加大概會達到2%以上，請教主計長的看法？"],["朱主計長澤民：我尊重他的說法，至於0.2到0.3則是要看轉嫁的程度，但是轉嫁的程度沒有事實資料，有些東西雖然成本高，企業會不會漲價也不一定。另外，可能因為生產力的提高而不會漲價，像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的。"],["李委員坤城：主計長，你能預測一下今年度的CPI大概會增加多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概是2%左右。"],["李委員坤城：就算電價有調漲大概也是落在2%左右？"],["朱主計長澤民：2%上下。"],["李委員坤城：有可能是在下嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：就要看未來的外食費、未來的水果及租金是不是走向平穩。"],["李委員坤城：但是主計長認為如果在2%左右的增長率，也算是溫和就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：不必過於悲觀啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，本席再請教主計長關於閒置資金的問題，過去在臺灣儲蓄是美德，我們的超額儲蓄每年都創新高，2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆，超額儲蓄率達到15.46%，每年大概都有增加。雖然儲蓄是美德，但是超額儲蓄好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：超額儲蓄，對我們來講儲蓄的錢一定要利用，當然實質的投資是一個方向，但是沒有做實質的投資，像我們做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助，就像央行將外匯在國外進行操作，每年賺取外匯，就是外國人的錢，對國內國庫的收入能夠貢獻2,000億，這未嘗不是壞事，所以投資不一定要做實質投資，有些金融投資也是有用的。"],["李委員坤城：但是我看這個數字，從2021年開始我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有三兆以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：大概三兆多。"],["李委員坤城：對，都三兆多。我們是希望透過政策引導，能夠把民間的投資放在公共建設上，但是就我看來，好像這幾年在這部分政府的政策工具是沒有做到，不然民間的超額儲蓄都還是有到三兆以上，每年都是三兆以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為他們進行投資，一定是讓未來的營業額可以增加，如果那個投資未來沒有帶動營業額的增加，那個投資可能就是一個浪費，所以我們必須考慮要做什麼投資，而且是不是一定要做實質投資，這個就不一定，像新加坡也是做很多金融投資，瑞士也都是有很高的超額儲蓄，但是他們有做實質投資也有做金融投資。"],["李委員坤城：我們有嗎？我們在這方面有做到嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們是金融投資比較少，所以我們金融市場的發展對國外的投資還是很重要。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我認為不管是你講的金融投資，或者實際上具體的建設投資，看起來是沒有做到啦！不然不會說每年超額儲蓄都超過三兆。剛剛有提到每一年我們的稅收都會超收，針對去年度超收的四大項目，例如綜所稅也超收、營業稅也超收、證交稅也超收、營業所得稅也超收，請主計處能不能設計一個模式，過去我們可能就經濟成長率來估計預算數，但是這幾年下來跟實際徵收數都有落差，實際上徵收的都比較多，是不是能夠根據剛剛本席所提到的四大稅收項目，譬如在綜合所得稅過去是看經濟成長率，現在可以看基本工資調整及政策利率調升；在營業稅方面，我們看民間消費率的成長；在營業交易稅方面，當然是維持日均成交值，選擇區間不同；在營利事業所得稅方面，我們來看出口及工業的生產指數。你們可以參考的指數很多，不是只有參考經濟成長率，這樣子所做出來的模型、算出來的預算數是不是會比較準確？也不會是每年實際上徵收的數額超過預算數。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員的建議我完全同意，不過我必須跟委員報告一下，財政部目前也正在委託專家學者在做這方面的研究。"],["李委員坤城：我希望不要每年都是超收啦！超收固然是好事，但也代表財政部在編列預算時還不夠詳實，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請陳玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.56596875,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.30409375,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.869093750000001,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.53221875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.409093750000004,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.99534375,"end":42.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.985343750000006,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.10659375,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.587218750000005,"end":61.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.78096875000001,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.135343750000004,"end":65.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.18096875,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.67284375,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.96784375,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.89596875000001,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.78159375,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.00096875,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.04284375,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.14346875000001,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.51471875,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.67409375000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.38596875,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.65096875,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.70096875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.00659375,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.77846875,"end":134.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.65971875,"end":137.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.61284375,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.70909375000002,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.56346875,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.72221875000002,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.24784375000002,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.39534375000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.59784375,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.11221875,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.87534375,"end":215.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.00159375,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.03534375,"end":216.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.95471875,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.11034375000003,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.68659375000001,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.13784375,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.45846875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.14784375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.02534375000002,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.78846875000002,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.83846875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.67471875,"end":282.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.81784375,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.08784375,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.15534375000004,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.29034375000003,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.42534375,"end":290.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.11284375,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.23034375000003,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.87159375000005,"end":312.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.40409375,"end":325.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.56659375000004,"end":325.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.75221875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":327.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.45159375000003,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.02659375,"end":354.1190937500000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約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎"},{"start":370.407,"end":371.828,"text":"但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了"},{"start":391.459,"end":412.816,"text":"本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加"},{"start":415.077,"end":439.731,"text":"除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行"},{"start":440.611,"end":441.592,"text":"但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始"},{"start":469.733,"end":496.716,"text":"我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上"},{"start":497.757,"end":516.154,"text":"對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且"},{"start":518.106,"end":547.075,"text":"是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個"},{"start":547.697,"end":573.748,"text":"具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收"},{"start":575.509,"end":575.889,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":595.658,"end":595.899,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":615.382,"end":634.649,"text":"銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數"},{"start":639.13,"end":660.421,"text":"委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":673.858,"end":674.12,"text":"主席先請審計長"}]}},{"id":"149792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903bdee5caaceeebb5933e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:24:43 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11:34:25","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":582,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:34:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:24:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時24分）好，謝謝召委，請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：首先還是要謝謝院長、部長對大林蒲遷村這個案件的大力支持，這是不好做的工作，不過真的也是對鄉親、對整個歷史負責，執政團隊願意全力來促成，我還是以當地的民意代表的身分表達感謝。現在開始來進行相關的程序，2月29日到5月16日預訂要辦63場的意願調查，把土地跟建物的所有權人大概6,600人完成，到了3月11日大概完成回收了567份的意願書，其中548份是同意，選擇方案已經出來，所以高達九成六的民眾是在進行當中。部裡面跟市府預計什麼時候把它完成？接下來的下一步呢？"],["王部長美花：這個部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：請局長回答。"],["楊局長伯耕：有關於調查的部分跟市府已經達成共識，在6月底以前會辦完全部的調查……"],["賴委員瑞隆：6月底以前會完成所有的調查？"],["楊局長伯耕：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果依照這樣的比例來說的話，很有可能是相當高的比例？"],["楊局長伯耕：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個完成之後的下一步呢？因為這大概6,600位是針對有房或有地的，接下來的部分呢？"],["楊局長伯耕：就這部分，市府目前的規劃就是全部都會做意願調查，調查完以後，就是有房有地或無房有地的部分統統都會做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以其他的部分也會完成？"],["楊局長伯耕：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預訂什麼時候把它全部完成？"],["楊局長伯耕：就是6月底……"],["賴委員瑞隆：全數完成，包括無房無地也在6月底以前全數完成？"],["楊局長伯耕：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。接下來我想請問一下部長，總數後來也得到院裡支持800億的經費，我看了一下，裡面大概有365億、將近一半是土地的補償費用；有43%是在建物的拆遷費用，大概310億；還有興建安置的公共設施，比如像社宅等等，大概花了22億；另外，準備金也花了40億。部長，除了這些規劃費用以外，還有沒有其他比較重要的費用？預訂怎麼來使用這些經費？"],["楊局長伯耕：向委員報告，我們編列的800億搬遷費裡面大概有七百多億是作為……"],["賴委員瑞隆：723億。"],["楊局長伯耕：是，這部分還有一些我們所謂的人員搬遷這些會在其他項裡面。剛剛委員有說明的部分，七百多億的部分，在我們人員的土地補償、建物補償等等會占最大宗。"],["賴委員瑞隆：跟部長說明一下，其實土地跟整個建物大概就占了93%了，事實上有土地跟建物，但是部長有看到，大概占了6,600位，其他無房無地的部分，我還是希望那一塊能夠做妥善的處理，所以之前跟部長也提過，對他們多一些些的支持、照顧，讓他們在這個地方、環境這麼久以後，他們在離開大林蒲、沿海六里的時候也是開心而高興，覺得政府有關注到他們，我也希望部長繼續再努力，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，這個都有反映委員的意見，跟高雄市政府溝通的時候都有提到。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我也希望部長持續來協助，讓整件事情、很不好做的一件工作，但是如果能夠順利地完成，我相信對整個鄉親、對國家都是一件好事情。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來剩一點時間，我要再問一下台糖的問題，這件事情其實從3月8日專家會議出來之後，看得出來檢驗室的部分正常的大概有3個，但是有4個異常，整個調查結果裡面，幾乎不管是從豬隻、到屠宰、到販售大概都排除風險，檢驗階段有可能會有一些狀況。部長，如果從這邊看起來的話，台糖應該相對是安全、沒有問題的吧？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，台糖是很安全的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，但是檢驗室那邊有要做一些釐清。我們看到這10年來大概豬隻的……特別台糖是國營事業，我也不認為台糖有什麼樣刻意去違法的空間，又不是把賺的錢放到自己的口袋，毫無謀利可言，就是說，領公務員薪水的人要去做這種事情是毫無效益，更何況還可能更貴的……"],["王部長美花：而且是更不可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以我覺得這件事情其實很詭異，就是它檢驗到台糖其實是沒有什麼動機，但是結論上面是台糖的安心豚推出17年，我自己也都有在買台糖的豬肉，因為我也信任台糖的品質是好的……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我看到這個損失了5,128萬，今天召委也有提到還有很多名譽上的損失、甚至很多人的害怕，到現在可能有的信者信、不信者恆不信，這個部分後續會有什麼樣的動作嗎？包括未來怎麼樣去確保這樣的事情不會再次地發生？"],["王部長美花：就這個部分，我們確實有在討論怎麼樣跟地方就非常異常的這種情形的通報機制，要不要做一個特別的設計，這個部分在院的階層會去討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以未來會讓這個通報更謹慎一些？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然我們一定要確保國人的食安，但是一旦出來那種訊息萬一有落差的時候，像後來被定調是個案、台糖是安全的時候，但是對台糖的傷害其實整個造成了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：台糖還是國營事業，當然是國家、人民納稅錢損失，但是一般的豬農可能就承受不起，任何一家豬農萬一發生這樣的狀況，恐怕是承受不起的。"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以在制度上面應該去建立一套更完整的機制，確保食品的安全，但是確保出來的東西是不會傷及到……像台糖我感覺它有點冤，過年期間所有的人員加班、忙碌、退貨等等，到現在還在受損。聽起來部長跟台糖這邊好像目前並沒有打算走司法的途徑，是嗎？"],["王部長美花：台糖他們有另外請律師的顧問在評估。對台糖來講，就像委員講的，恢復台糖的信譽、大家來多多買台糖的豬肉，我想這個是目前短期大家可以來做的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：信譽的恢復是一件重要事情，趕快讓消費者恢復信心，這是一件事情，但是另外的是防止未來這樣的事情再次地發生，我認為這是一件重要的事情。"],["王部長美花：是，這個會在衛福部這邊……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，機制如果能夠處理起來，當然是一種方法……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：司法也是另外一種方法，但是重點是能夠預防未來這樣的事情發生，我認為都是好的方法。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要問一下，前兩天我看到盧秀燕市長在議會被質詢的時候提到，他認為這個是台糖個案才有，台糖要自己努力去找，顯然他認為是台糖要自己想辦法，部長認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["王部長美花：事實上如果委員這樣講，那一陣子、甚至過年前開始到過年期間，台糖同仁都加班把市面上所有同批的都找出來，甚至不同批的也找出來去驗等等，台糖這樣單一的檢驗有這樣的問題，台糖其實費了非常大的力氣來自證台糖是安全的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長覺得盧市長這樣的講法其實並不公允？"],["王部長美花：對台糖其實還是滿傷害的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還滿傷的，其實對他們也不公平。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為我們從專家會議來看，台糖的部分幾乎盡了最大努力，看起來是排除掉各種風險，反倒有一些些……"],["王部長美花：是，坦白講，台糖這麼重視自己的信譽，而且有辦法這樣做，不惜成本這樣做，其實是花了非常多力氣來讓大家安心。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，所以整個調查結果其實幾乎都排除掉台糖本身的風險，但是反倒是檢驗階段有一些不確定性，到底是不是檢驗出問題，沒有人敢確保，所以當盧市長還把這個問題丟給台糖，我認為其實是不公允的，對台糖也是不公平的，部長同意這樣的看法吧？"],["王部長美花：是，我們希望台糖……大家現在可以很確認，它是一個非常安全生產的豬肉。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為從事政治工作應該都要公允處理，我看到今天臺中市衛生局長被質詢也問到了，他也鬆口未來會精進作法，包括減少食安爭議，遇到異常跟中央通報，包括去追溯，更嚴謹的程序可以減少這樣意外的發生。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：至少在發布出去的時候，他很清楚及確定，經過中央地方的經驗，讓大家來判斷恐怕要趕快提醒市民，但是如果經過這樣的通報之後，發現好像有些詭異的地方，台糖應該不至於這樣做，又是只有這一塊肉，沒有其他的肉，恐怕就必須思考它可能是個案，是否要馬上通報恐怕要很謹慎。"],["王部長美花：是的，最近我們衛福部會來跟地方討論如何有效率地對這種非常特別的異常狀況，看怎麼樣有效地來聯繫。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以當臺中市的衛生局長都比較鬆口、比較軟化的時候，我其實覺得盧秀燕市長在這件事情上可以還台糖一個公道，不需要用這麼嚴厲的態度全部丟給台糖，我反而覺得在這件事情上面，台糖已經盡了最大的努力，如果盧市長還把責任丟給台糖，我認為其實不公允的。"],["王部長美花：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們來看一下，接下來衛福部也開始做一些通報程序的改變，在程序上，經濟部會不會請衛福部也加快來完成內部法規的修改？"],["王部長美花：會，我們會跨部會趕快確定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定多久可以完成？"],["王部長美花：這個應該很快，衛福部就會很快……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望部長加快跟衛福部長聯繫，好不好？這樣事情儘快完成，至少有一個很標準的作業程序，減少未來這種事情發生的機率，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員、謝謝部長。","好，我先宣告一下我們中午不休息，一直到詢答結束為止。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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首先還是要先謝謝院長部長其實大林埔千村這個案件的大力支持不好做的工作不過這也是對鄉親部也是對整個歷史做一個負責那我還覺得就是執政團隊願意全力來促成我還是表達就當地的這個民意代表來說表達感謝那現在開始在進行相關的程序了2月29到5月16日一定要辦63場的一個議員調查"},{"start":31.946,"end":52.909,"text":"把這個土地跟建物的大概6600元先把它完成那到了3月11日大概完成了回收了567份的意願書其中548份是同意選擇方案已經出來所以高達9成6的民眾是這個在進行當中那部裡面跟市府預定什麼時候把它完成然後接下來的下一步呢"},{"start":54.363,"end":75.92,"text":"這個部分有關於調查的部分跟市府已經達成共識會在6月底前會辦完6月底前會完成所有的調查那如果依照這樣的比例來說的話很有可能是相當高的一個比例那這個完成之後的下一步呢因為這大概6600位是針對有房有地的有地的或有房的那接下來的部分呢"},{"start":76.7,"end":92.996,"text":"對,那這一部分呢,市府目前的規劃就是全部都會做醫院調查。調查完以後就有房有地或無房無地的部分啊,通通都會做。所以其他的部分也會完成?運營什麼時候來把它全部完成?就是6月底。全數完成,包括無房無地也在6月底前全數完成?是是是。"},{"start":93.676,"end":121.995,"text":"接下來我想請問一下部長總數我們後來也得到願意支持800億的一個經費這裡面我看了一下裡面大概有大概將近365億大概將近50%一半是在土地的補償費用大概有43%是在建物的一些拆遷的費用大概310億另外還有當然新建安置的工設施比如說像設宅等等大概花了22億另外準備金也花了40億"},{"start":123.537,"end":129.394,"text":"那部長除了一些的規劃費用以外還有沒有其他的一些比較重要的費用那預定怎麼來使用這些經費"},{"start":132.044,"end":157.004,"text":"向委員報告我們編列的800億的搬遷費裡面大概有700多億是在做723億對是那這一部分包括還有一些我們所謂的人員搬遷這些會在其他項裡面那剛剛委員有說明的部分700多億的部分就是在我們人員的土地的補償建物的補償等等的這些會佔的最大宗"},{"start":157.464,"end":161.427,"text":"這跟部長說明一下 其實土地跟整個建物大概就佔了9393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939293939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939293939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":185.842,"end":204.449,"text":"我也希望部長繼續再努力啦好嗎是是那這個都有吧委員的意見反映跟高雄市政府溝通的時候都有提到好我也希望部長持續來協助啦讓整件事情很不好做的一件工作但是如果能夠順利的完成我相信對整個鄉親對國家都是一件好事情啦是"},{"start":205.51,"end":222.49,"text":"接下來剩一點時間我再問一下台糖的問題其實這件事情其實從3月8號專家會議出來之後看得出來檢驗室的部分正常大概有3個但是有4個異常那整個調查結果裡面幾乎也排除掉不管是從豬吃到屠宰到販售大概都排除風險那檢驗階段"},{"start":224.392,"end":251.32,"text":"有可能啦 有可能會有一些狀況所以如果部長從這邊來看起來臺堂應該相對是安全沒有問題的沒有錯 臺堂是很安全的事對 那 那 那但是檢驗室那邊當然他要去做一些釐清的那我們看到這10年啦大概租資的臺堂啦特別臺堂是國營事業我也不認為臺堂有什麼樣刻意去違法的空間牟利又不是賺錢又不是放到自己的口袋毫無可言就是說領公務員的薪水的他去做這事情是毫無效益更何況還可能"},{"start":252,"end":252.14,"text":"﹚賴瑞隆﹚賴瑞隆﹚"},{"start":282.304,"end":286.005,"text":"後續會有什麼樣的動作嗎?包括未來怎麼樣去確保這樣的事情再次的發生?是 那這個部分我們確實有在討論怎麼樣來跟地方來就非常異常的這種情形的通報機制要不要做一個特別的設計那這個部分會在院的階層會去討論"},{"start":302.25,"end":326.695,"text":"所以未來會讓這個通報更謹慎一些當然確實我們要確保國人的食安的安全但是在一旦出來任何訊息萬一有落差的時候像後來被定調成是個案的時候台糖是安全的時候但是對台糖的傷害其實就整個造成那台糖還是國營事業當然是國家人民那是有點損失但是一般的豬農可能就承受不起任何一家豬農萬一發生這樣的狀況恐怕是承受不起的"},{"start":327.115,"end":352.303,"text":"所以在制度上面應該去建立一套更完整的一個機制確保食安安全但是也確保大家的這個出來的東西是不會傷及到像台堂我感覺有點冤啦過年期間所有人員加班忙碌然後退貨等等到現在還在受損我認為我聽起來部長跟台堂這邊好像目前並沒有打算走司法的途徑是嗎"},{"start":353.708,"end":376.922,"text":"台糖他們有另外請律師的顧問再評估啦吼那對台糖來講就像委員講的恢復台灣的信譽大家來多多買台糖的豬肉我想這個是目前短期大家可以信譽的恢復是一件重要的事情啦吼那趕快讓消費者恢復信譽但是另外是防止未來這樣的事情再次的發生那我認為這是一件重要的事情"},{"start":379.583,"end":399.467,"text":"對,機制如果能夠處理起來當然是一種方法但司法也是另外一種方法但是重點是能夠預防未來這樣事情發生我認為都是好的方法那我還是要問一下因為前兩天我看到盧秀燕市長在被議會質詢的時候他認為說這個是台堂個案才有啊台堂要自己努力去找顯然他認為是台堂要自己想辦法"},{"start":400.307,"end":400.727,"text":"部長認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":425.947,"end":440.231,"text":"所以部長覺得市長 盧市長這樣講法其實並不公允對台糖其實是還蠻傷害的還蠻傷的嘛 其實對他們也不公平啦齁因為從我們專家會來看 台糖的部分幾乎盡了最大努力幾乎看起來是排除掉各種風險"},{"start":442.392,"end":467.907,"text":"對,就是台湯這麼重視自己的信譽而且有辦法這樣做,不惜成本的這樣做其實是花了非常多力氣來讓大家安心的所以整個調查結果其實幾乎都排除掉台湯本身的風險但是檢驗階段反倒檢驗階段有一些不確定性到底是不是檢驗出問題沒有人敢確保所以當盧市長還把這個問題丟給台湯我認為其實是不公允的啦對台湯也是不公平的"},{"start":468.487,"end":494.503,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法吧?是,我們希望臺堂大家現在可以很確認他是一個非常安全的生產的豬肉我認為從事政治工作應該都要公允去處理我看到今天的這個臺中市的衛生局長也被質詢問到了他認為未來他也鬆口怎麼樣減少可以精進做法包括減少食安爭議就是遇到異常跟中央通報包括去追溯"},{"start":495.083,"end":495.243,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":521.228,"end":540.901,"text":"對,我覺得這個最近就是我們衛福部會來跟地方怎麼樣更有效率的對這種非常特別的異常狀況怎麼樣有效的來聯繫所以當台中市的衛生局長都在比較鬆口、比較軟化的時候我其實覺得盧秀燕市長其實在這件事情上可以還台堂一個公道不需要用這麼嚴厲的態度來全部丟給台堂我反而覺得"},{"start":543.963,"end":547.626,"text":"在這件事情上面台湯已經盡了最大的努力盧市長還把慈恩丟給台湯我認為其實不公允的"},{"start":574.184,"end":574.204,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035bf06c9addf740433ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a619bde232eb5524465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:18:06 - 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fashion designer，可以成為一個跨界的新的展演。我分享這些是要告訴大家、告訴我們考試院所有的同仁，文化在進步，跨域與創新是現在文化政策的新挑戰。","上個週末我也去了臺灣博物館，臺博館有一個臺灣建築與圖說紀錄片的首映會，我爭取了文化部的預算，以前建築是營建署在管的，建築都是法規，我想很多的考試院同仁在做各項的考試，你們都知道建築就是考營建法規、考結構安全，事實上，建築是文化的一部分，所以我催生了文化部開始讓博物館與建築用文化的觀點去從事很多，包括那天的活動是紀錄片的拍攝，而未來臺灣文化部會有一個新的館舍，叫做臺灣建築文化中心，所以我要告訴大家、分享給大家，建築的主管機關不再只有內政部，建築會是文化保存、推廣、走向國際很重要的文化項目，而我催生的建築文化中心努力了6年又148天，我非常期待今年可以上路。","為什麼要分享這些呢？我想告訴大家，越來越多的文化館舍都在成立，都在新設，這幾年來從鐵道博物館、臺灣文學館、臺灣歷史博物館、國家攝影文化中心、國家漫畫博物館、國家兒童未來博物館、電影及影視音中心，公視台語台也開了，TaiwanPlus也開臺了，這是中央政府的文化建設，未來有臺灣音樂中心和建築文化中心要上路，而地方政府，就以大家最熟知的北流、北藝，再到高雄的衛武營等等，我們的人才進用要跟上啊！我想秘書長非常知道，我講了這麼多，我希望能夠帶入文化的思維在我們考試院的相關政策上，這個是館舍的需求，越來越多的文化建設，我們需要越來越多的文化人才。","再來，我講法規，我花一點時間跟大家分享。文化基本法終於在2019年立法完成，它是文化的基本大法，就是文化的憲法，文化基本法裡頭針對文化人才的進用、選用是大大的要求要全方面地來跟上，我就不贅述條文了；文化資產保存法也在2016年大修了，大幅地要求各個部會部部都是文化部，就從文化資產的修復下手，所以我們需要將文資修復的人才導入各部會，不是只有文化部需要文化資產修復的人才，所以我分享一個經驗，經濟部下所屬的國營事業從台糖、台電、中油到台灣自來水公司，106年來就開始在自己的徵才錄取項目裡頭訂定了「文化資產」類，這是國營事業很大的一個創新，因為台電也好，中油也好，台糖也好，他們管理的很多都是文化資產，需要修復人才，而不是凡事都是丟給文化部去做，所以在文化法規，因應文資法的大修，我們需要人才、需要人力；文獎條例也修正了，在2021年，我們各個部會要強化對於公共藝術的投入，同樣需要文化人才。","回到重點，這個前提有點久，我要醞釀那個情緒來說服大家。文化在進步，文化建設越來越多，國家需要更多的文化人才，但是看看我們在攬才面，考公職的都知道，文化行政類就是死亡之組，錄取率最低，開的缺最少；我以高考這5年來的統計，文化行政只錄取86人，只有占整體錄取人員的0.59%，其他類別都是高於文化行政的類別，各類科的錄取率是11.23%，文化行政類只有2.4%，這是高考；我們來看普考攬才的部分，5年來的文化行政錄取71人，占整體普考錄取人員的0.57%，跟其他類科比起來，也是明顯的偏低。為什麼缺這麼少？為什麼死亡之組讓很多人聞之卻步？所以我們文化人才的進用就難之又難！秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員的分享，我覺得這個資訊對我們來說是很重要，過去可能也沒有這麼深入分析的意見，如果從錄取率來看，那麼低就表示其實想進政府部門服務相關工作的專業人士還比較多，但是他的機會不夠多。"],["吳委員思瑤：對。"],["劉秘書長建忻：當然我必須說，各機關的需用人數是由各機關自己來報，這個比較不是考試院主動……"],["吳委員思瑤：但文化部永遠告訴我，他們爭取不到。"],["劉秘書長建忻：爭取不到應該不是考試院的原因，因為只要報缺來，我們一定會來協助招考，也許是他們希望更多的員額，這個部分就比較是行政院那邊的……"],["吳委員思瑤：我懂，人事行政總處。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，但是我們絕對支持這樣的理念，各部門真的需要有更多文化的人力，一般的同仁也需要有更多文化思維。"],["吳委員思瑤：我非常謝謝秘書長的回答，我也非常清楚，開缺第一線是部會，當然還有地方政府，第二關就是人事總處在處理，但是跟考試院也是有關係的。攬才面也許跟您沒有那麼直接，那我們來看育才面。公務人員基礎訓練120小時裡，只有4個小時要上文化類科的課程，而剛好這4個小時就是線上課程就可以了。我去看了這4個小時文化課程的課程內容，確實跟文化相關，但是它focus在族群和諧，它focus在氣候變遷，sorry，這不是我所論述的文化政策的精進教育，這個是公務人力的基礎訓練，所以文化課程患寡也患不均，只占120個小時裡面的4小時，然後它的4小時上的還不是我們文化基本法要求的文化課程，這個可以改進吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我請郝主委來說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，那我下面講完您再一起回應。這個是另外一個再進修的課程，15個小時高普考的輔助必修數位課程，就是數位課程，裡頭確實落實了臺灣現在重要的國家政策，譬如說人權的課程、性平的課程、原住民族的課程，但是就是沒有文化基本法裡文化政策要求的公職人員文化教育的訓練再進修。所以文化立國，部部是文化部，在育才的方面也確實做得不夠好。","再下一個，我把問題點出來，剛剛那個是普考人力generally的訓練課程，這個就是文化行政類別的集中實務專業訓練30小時，課程真的很好，因為是文化部幫忙規劃，講師也好、內容也好，都非常好，但是有一個缺點，都是坐在會議室上課。在文化類的課程最重要的就是on site learning，要把文化課程帶到文化資產的現址、要帶到文化場館的現址，那才是真正的文化近用，那才是真正第一線的去理解文化，就是UNESCO（聯合國教科文組織）現在在推的文化教育。所以在這幾個面向，課程上患寡也患不均，精進的課程還有很多可以再做得更好的地方，我一併提供，您要簡要回應嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：跟委員報告，謝謝委員非常精彩及完整的資料整理，跟委員說明剛才委員所列示的那個基礎訓練，因為那是給所有公務同仁的一個基礎訓練，它強調的是共通職能的訓練，所以我們是……"],["吳委員思瑤：但是共通職能文化不能是outsider喔！"],["郝主任委員培芝：所以我們會在所謂的文化行政裡面，就誠如委員所提供的，我們在各個類組裡有集中實務訓練……"],["吳委員思瑤：4個小時不夠啦！因為文化是跨領域的，增加它的課程授課時數，以及內容要真的貼近國家重要的文化政策好嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：是，我們以後會再精進，我們在這個集中實務訓練的部分會貼近各個類科裡面最重要的專業知能跟專業的法令以及專業的政策，所以我們有規劃了這樣的一個集中實務訓練，這個部分是由我們保訓會跟文化部來共同擘畫。"],["吳委員思瑤：課程是很好，講師也很好，但是on site learning來協助好嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：至於以後要加上實場的課程，我們也會提供文化部來做參考。"],["吳委員思瑤：我後面一些東西來不及講，主席站起來一直給我壓力，我要跟考試院所有的夥伴來分享，文化進入一個全新發展的領域，文化就在生活裡，部部都是文化部，人人都是文化人，就要從我們公務人力的考選訓用來下手。我長期在文化部門，我看到各個部會的文化人力大大的不足，這個部分請大家一起來幫忙好嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：不好意思，傅委員，時間占的比較久，sorry。"],["主席：謝謝郝主委，謝謝劉秘書長。","接下來有請傅總召崐萁質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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有請劉建興秘書長有請劉秘書長"},{"start":14.898,"end":14.918,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":38.764,"end":57.754,"text":"國家需要更多的文化人才,在攬財育才的部分,考試院其實可以跟上這個部部都是文化部,人人都是文化人這樣的國家發展趨勢。好,下一頁。問一下這個建新秘書長,您個人最近一次參加的文化event是什麼?"},{"start":58.895,"end":83.522,"text":"或是你特別喜歡去什麼文化場館?音樂會跟美術館音樂會跟美術館那最近一次有到哪裡去?去年應該有去國家音樂廳高美館高美館最近江賢二老師的大展剛剛在上週末結束所以聽來我們的秘書長是有藝文生活的而且您會去參與的除了表演藝術之外"},{"start":85.645,"end":91.257,"text":"視覺藝術您也都有參與非常好我希望每一個人都有文化生活下一頁"},{"start":92.674,"end":114.441,"text":"我以我自己,您剛說您是去年去,不好意思,我是文化界的同好,我的文化生活也是我的工作。所以我上週末我先去了歷史博物館,我跟大家分享,歷史博物館是國民政府來台以後第一個建的博物館。"},{"start":115.521,"end":130.512,"text":"他歷經一甲子,現在邁向70年,最近在我們啟用前瞻基礎建設的預算,協助他進行開館以來最大的修復、修善、整修、整建,終於在上週末重新開幕。"},{"start":131.773,"end":139.355,"text":"所以歷史博物館呢就做了一個開幕的大展而且他是跨界的他請了時尚設計師周育穎這是台灣的新銳時尚設計師是走上紐約時裝週走上倫敦時裝週的一把手他利用史博館的典藏、館藏去時尚跟文物的結合所以那天史博館的這個開幕event非常的精彩"},{"start":160.78,"end":176.909,"text":"我自己也成為時尚代言人,是上臺灣時裝周也是司要委員任內催生的我穿上的是長玉,我們史博館的典藏長玉的畫作跟周育穎的一個時尚跨界的合作"},{"start":179.25,"end":199.621,"text":"那天的展覽也就是史博館現在重新的這個展覽我呼籲我也邀請大家一起去看這檔展覽它讓我們看到文化的新跟舊的鏈結跨域的新時代到了所以把史博館的很多典藏譬如說郭雪狐的早春系列它變成一個系列的時裝"},{"start":201.663,"end":221.259,"text":"馬白水的太魯閣之美也成為一套四件的時裝系列當然我們的青花瓷也能夠作為時裝作為台灣的IP、台灣的文化內涵江賢二老師跟常鈺的畫作再搭配周育穎這個Fashion Designer可以成為一個跨界的新的展演"},{"start":222.523,"end":236.452,"text":"我分享這些是要告訴大家告訴我們考試院所有的同仁文化在進步跨域跟創新是現在的文化政策的新挑戰我也在上個週末我也去了臺灣博物館臺博館有一個臺灣建築與圖說紀錄片的首映會"},{"start":245.798,"end":252.831,"text":"我爭取了文化部的預算讓以前建築是營建署在管的建築都是法規"},{"start":254.451,"end":279.204,"text":"我想很多的考試院的同仁你們在做各項的這個考試都知道建築就是考營建法規考結構安全事實上建築是文化的一部分所以我催生了文化部開始讓博物館跟建築用文化的觀點去從事很多包括那天的活動是紀錄片的拍攝下一頁而未來回到前一頁"},{"start":280.505,"end":293.453,"text":"未來台灣文化部會有一個新的管社叫做台灣建築文化中心所以我要告訴大家分享大家建築的主管機關不再只有內政部"},{"start":294.502,"end":295.862,"text":"為什麼要分享這些呢?下一頁"},{"start":317.298,"end":337.284,"text":"我想告訴大家越來越多的文化館舍都在成立都在興設這幾年來從鐵道博物館、台灣文學館、台灣歷史博物館、國家攝影文化中心、國家漫畫博物館、國家兒童未來博物館、電影及影視影中心、公視台語台也開了、台灣plus也開台了"},{"start":338.104,"end":352.452,"text":"這是中央政府的文化建設未來有台灣音樂中心跟建築文化中心要上路而地方政府就以大家最熟知的北流、北藝再到這個高雄的衛武營等等"},{"start":354.246,"end":354.286,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":373.081,"end":396.728,"text":"我講法規我花一點時間跟大家分享文化基本法終於在2019年修法完成而立法完成它是文化的基本大法就是文化的憲法文化基本法裡頭有針對文化人才的禁用選用是大大的要求要全方面的來跟上我就不贅述條文了下一頁"},{"start":397.853,"end":414.238,"text":"文化資產保存法也在2016年大修了大幅的要求各個部會部部都是文化部就從文化資產的修復下手所以呢我們需要在文資修復的人才導入各部會不是只有文化部需要文化資產修復的人才"},{"start":415.939,"end":432.803,"text":"所以我分享一個經歷經驗經濟部下所屬的國營事業從臺糖、臺電、中油到臺灣自來水公司這幾年來106年就開始在他自己的徵才入取項目裡頭訂定了文化資產類"},{"start":435.104,"end":448.331,"text":"這是國營事業很大的一個創新因為台電也好、中油也好、台糖也好、也好他們管理的很多都是文化資產需要修復人才而不是凡事都是丟給文化部去做"},{"start":449.028,"end":465.943,"text":"所以在文化法規因應文字法的大修我們需要人才需要人力下一頁好 文獎條例也修正了2021年我們各個部會要強化對於公共藝術的投入它同樣需要文化人才"},{"start":466.904,"end":489.867,"text":"所以回到重點喔 夏業 這個前提有點久 我要醞釀那個情緒來說服大家文化在進步 文化建設越來越多 國家需要更多的文化人才但是呢 夏業 看看我們在懶財面 考公職的都知道 文化行政類就是死亡之族啊"},{"start":491.145,"end":502.334,"text":"錄取率最低開的缺最少我以高考這五年來的統計文化行政只錄取86人錄取率只有0.59"},{"start":505.342,"end":533.872,"text":"那其他類別都是高於文化行政的類別各類科的錄取率是11.23文化行政類只有2.4這是高考下一頁我們來看普考的攬裁的部分五年來的文化行政錄取71人占整體的普考錄取人員的0.57而跟其他類科比起來也是明顯的偏低"},{"start":535.012,"end":535.032,"text":"來 秘書長"},{"start":549.543,"end":578.391,"text":"現在委員的分享我覺得這個資訊對我們來說是很重要那過去可能也沒有這麼深入的這個分析的意見如果從錄取率來看那麼低就表示說其實想進政府部門服務相關工作的專業人士還比較多但是他的機會不夠多那當然我必須說各機關所的需用人數是由各機關自己來報這個比較不是考試院主任但文化部永遠告訴我他們爭取不到"},{"start":580.432,"end":601.052,"text":"應該 政治部門應該不是考試院 因為只要報來缺我們一定會來協助招考那至於說 也許是他們希望更多的員額那這個部分就比較是行政院我懂 人事行政總處但是我們絕對支持這樣的理念各部門真的需要有更多文化的人力那同仁 一般的同仁也需要有更多文化的思維"},{"start":601.713,"end":616.844,"text":"我非常謝謝秘書長的回答,我也非常清楚,開缺第一線是部會當然還有地方政府喔,第二關就是人事總處在處理,但是跟考試院也是有關係的來,懶財面,也許跟您沒有那麼直接,那我們來看育財面,下一頁"},{"start":619.54,"end":644.722,"text":"這是公務人員基礎訓練120小時裡頭只有4個小時要上文化類科的課程而剛好這4個小時就是線上課程就可以了而這4個小時的文化課程我去看了它的課程內容確實跟文化相關但是它focus在族群和諧它focus在氣候變遷"},{"start":646.483,"end":668.219,"text":"對不起 這不是我所論述的文化政策的精進教育這個是公務人力的基礎訓練所以文化課程換寡也換不均只佔120個小時裡面的4小時然後它的4小時上的還不是我們文化基本法要求的文化課程 這個可以改進吧"},{"start":669.226,"end":676.03,"text":"好沒關係那我下面講完下一頁你再一起回應這個是另外一個在進修的課程15個小時高普考的輔助必修數位課程就是數位課程裡頭確實落實了台灣現在重要的國家政策譬如說人權的課程性平的課程援助民族的課程但是就是沒有文化基本法裡頭文化政策要求的文化教育的"},{"start":698.044,"end":717.041,"text":"公職人員的訓練在進修所以文化立國部部師文化部在育才的方面也確實做得不夠好再下一個我把問題點出來剛剛那個是普考的人力的這個generally的訓練課程這個就是文化行政類別的集中食物的專業訓練30小時課程真的很好因為是文化部幫忙規劃"},{"start":722.806,"end":739.281,"text":"講師也好,內容也好,都非常好,但是一個缺點,都是坐在會議室上課。在文化類的課程,最重要的就是 onsite,對不起我助理拼錯了,site, onsite learning,"},{"start":739.941,"end":763.384,"text":"要把文化課程帶到文化資產的限制要帶到文化場館的限制那才是真正的文化禁用那才是真正第一線的去理解文化這是UNESCO教科文聯合國教科文組織現在在推的文化教育所以在這幾個面向課程上換寡也換不均今天的課程裡頭"},{"start":765.308,"end":790.735,"text":"還有很多可以在做得更好的地方我一併提供 您要緊要回應嗎不好意思主席站起來了是跟委員報告對謝謝委員非常這個精彩跟完整的資料的一個整理那跟委員說明剛才委員所列示的那個基礎訓練因為那是給所有公務同仁的一個基礎訓練他強調的是共通職能的訓練所以在我們是但是共通職能文化不能是outside的喔對"},{"start":791.115,"end":819.894,"text":"所以我們會在這個所謂的文化行政裏面就誠如委員所提供的我們在各個類科裏面有集中食物訓練的部﹗四小時不夠啊因為文化是跨領域的是增加它的課程授課時數以及內容要真的貼近國家重要的文化政策好嗎是我們以後會再精進對那我們就是在這個集中食物訓練的部分我們就會貼近這個各個類科裏面最重要的專業職能跟專業的法令以及專業的一個政策所以我們有規劃了這樣的一個集中食物選這個部分是由我們保訓會跟文化部來共同撥劃"},{"start":820.674,"end":820.834,"text":"文化部委員會主席"},{"start":848.938,"end":850.159,"text":"訓用．下手。"}]}},{"id":"149789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69032c23c282c4e55ab4b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a614d5e53a528fd4095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:14:08 - 11:24:59","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:24:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:14:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":974,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長，您好。請教主計長，您覺得補助收入跟稅課收入對政府機關而言，哪一種比較好？會比較期待拿到哪一種收入？"],["朱主計長澤民：從中央的觀點是稅課收入比較好，因為它的財源比較穩定，補助是由上級機關補助他，不過有些稅課收入受先天的影響，還是要靠補助以解決地方的不均，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。主計長，您幾乎是已經把我想要問的態度都講出來了。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：事實上根據我們的預算法，我們的總預算案應該要在會計年度開始的一個月前，也就是11月底前，要由立法院議決嘛！可是我們看到資料，過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀，通常都會到12月，又或者是到1月會計年度開始；地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣，常常因為議事的繁雜而延宕，所以通常會拖到1月，甚至是2月才通過。","為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題？主計長，請您看一下，有一些原住民鄉因為六都的關係合併。以高雄市的桃源區公所來看，它在縣市合併之前，它的歲入預算大約是17億，可是它曾經一度失去公法人的地位，4年之後2014年又恢復為原住民區的公法人，它的歲入預算回來也是一樣17億。可是我們看一下它的結構，它的稅課收入從過去合併前的70%，到現在是變成0，幾乎80%都要靠一般性的補助收入，所以您剛才講的話就是地方的心聲。","為什麼會這樣？它其實是因為地制法那時在修，是寫「山地原住民區實施自治所需財源，由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助，並維持改制前各該山地鄉統籌分配財源水準」，也就是等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後，它又要等，因為還要從上級政府到鄉鎮公所。有時候財政部有超收、有紅包，它也是直接撥給縣市政府，可是他們不一定拿得到。現在還有第二個狀況，地制法第八十三條之七說：「改制前各該山地鄉前三年度稅課收入平均數」。您看一下，這個是高雄市桃源區，也就是合併的原鄉區，它改制前後的收入是差不多的，以桃源區來講，大約是15億，可是一般的原住民鄉，我們可以看到，它可以高達……這個是泰安鄉，可以多達20億，它是浮動的，有一些紅包可以收，所以在這邊想要請教主計長，如果從預算考核的角度，稅課收入是否較補助收入對地方自治財政健全有幫助？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確，這個也是大家努力的方向，財劃法要讓地方有更多的稅課收入……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["朱主計長澤民：不過必須跟委員報告一下，我可能要跟委員核對一下，你那個金額在前面的17.6億，恐怕是小數點有標……我們再跟您辦公室核對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的數據。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我現在就是要講，既然我前面問了你的態度是支持肯定。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我現在問，你也是支持肯定的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，可是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我希望財劃法第三條在第四款增加一下「直轄市原民區」好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，可是它有一些指標，那些指標在分配的時候，原民區就不一定能夠分配到稅課，我必須這麼講……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我們知道有這個不確定因素。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是至少目前合併的原鄉區，他們有這個困擾。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這一次修法的時候，我們會希望把第三條第四款增加「直轄市原民區」。你剛剛的回答是贊同的嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，贊同的，但我必須說明一下，因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅，那個財產稅如果要增加收入，可能會有人反對，因為他那個財產價值又沒有增加……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那主計長可不可以這樣，就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎？我們來討論。"],["朱主計長澤民：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：畢竟我們也要提出修法版本，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主計長，接下來請審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：審計長，您好。根據審計部的非營業基金審核報告，它常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題，最常被詬病的就是原發基金的逾放比常年偏高。確實，因為一般的銀行逾放比是0.17%，但是原發基金最高可以衝20%，現在大概也有8%，確實是太高了。","你們的解釋是，有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力，所以我們也看到金管會或者是原民會，這些年也做了很多的教育宣導或是普惠金融的政策。我想要請教審計長，你個人認為原住民族綜合發展基金逾放比過高是誰的問題？是原民會的問題比較多，還是原住民族、原住民個人的問題比較多，還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我比較偏向委員後面那個問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：社會結構？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：結構上。因為我們一定要幫原民、儘量協助他們，這個難免會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：金融研訓院於2020年的報告有提出財務脆弱六大族群，其中就有新住民、原住民，也就是認為他們的財力是相對較弱的，抵抗力也是處於極低的比例，抵抗力包括自身財力、金融服務取得等方面，審計長應該比我都更清楚。第二個問題，他還會遇到經濟因素，譬如借貸需求，但是銀行通常都不願意承貸、放貸原保地，求助財政部也沒有結果，找正規的金融機構求貸無門只好找地下管道，最後連土地都沒有了，所以這是結構的問題。","第三個，我們也看到原發基金其實有連年連續短絀的問題，這也是一個很麻煩的問題。另外，還有所謂的禁伐補償金，謝謝主計總處、主計長，在我們質詢之後，我看到去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算，而且是足額。可是過去多年來都不足額，都是從綜發基金的錢去處理，現在雖然有撥補，以去年來講，雖然你們撥補到21億，但是還是有一些短絀的問題，所以原發基金也是連年下降。","關於這個部分，我想要請教審計單位，其實原發基金的收入很有限，但是我們看到它的用途包括要去做事業貸款之外，還有很多，譬如要做我們的建購、修繕，還要蓋社宅，還要去做溫泉開發等等很多，可是它的錢就沒有很多，然後也賺不了錢，怎麼辦呢？所以這個部分我想要請教審計長，因為原發基金有連年短絀、貸款逾放比過高等等的問題，需要做跨部會的檢討改進，對不對？這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧？審計部對於這個部分的議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，我們的基本審核會檢視所有基金的盈餘怎麼樣，原民發展綜合基金是有發生3年短絀情形，其收入是有限的，固定進來不多，但是要做的事情很多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！但是我們都期待它的錢越來越多，因為要做的事很多，所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：先把脈診斷，再給我們解方。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，只要符合規定、符合發放標準，即使有短絀，我們也會發給它，因為基金可以併決算辦理，隔一年度我們再考慮它要編列多少。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：想辦法讓它可以賺多一點錢，謝謝主計長、謝謝審計長，如果有需要開會也通知我辦公室，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：好。"],["主席：請李委員坤城發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.25846875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.47596875,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.68659375,"end":34.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.46846875,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.99971875,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.180968750000005,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.939718750000004,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.260343750000004,"end":81.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":88.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.42221875,"end":100.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.87596875000001,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.35221875,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.10284375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.53846875000002,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.59096875,"end":250.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.74284375000002,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.75971875000002,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.95596875,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.20471875000004,"end":265.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.23846875000004,"end":284.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.16221875,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.87471875,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.20159375000003,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.97284375000004,"end":301.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.13221875,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.14909375,"end":297.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.35159375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.90784375000004,"end":301.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.94159375000004,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.02596875,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.09346875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.69221875,"end":304.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.77659375,"end":304.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.29909375,"end":309.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.77159375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.97221875,"end":323.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.20409375,"end":336.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.96284375000005,"end":328.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.69159375000004,"end":343.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.79221875,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.19284375,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.77909375,"end":343.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.65659375,"end":346.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.63909375000003,"end":348.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.56221875,"end":353.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.61284375,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.64659375,"end":353.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.03784375000004,"end":362.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.91096875,"end":366.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":411.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.69659375000003,"end":416.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.19784375,"end":427.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.99784375,"end":441.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.52471875000003,"end":432.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.95034375,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.01721875000004,"end":440.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.34596875000005,"end":487.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.14034375000006,"end":578.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.95721875,"end":587.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.26846875,"end":608.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4722187500001,"end":606.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.04159375,"end":609.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.01596875,"end":609.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.03284375,"e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11:24:32","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:24:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:13:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時13分）主席好。首先有請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：王部長好。我常常下鄉，也常常碰到一些困擾的問題，就是無自來水地區自來水延管的工程，這裡面牽涉到水利署和自來水公司。現在全國自來水的普及率達到95%，但是你們要求的標準是每一戶的施工成本要在60萬以下，審查標準是60萬以下才可以，以上不可以。我覺得臺灣大家都一樣繳稅，尤其現在已經普及到95%，沒有裝自來水的地區就是偏遠地區，也是比較落後的地區，其實這是水資源涵養最重要的地區，他們那邊的人要裝自來水卻遇到這個60萬的標準而沒辦法裝。我覺得政府對民生的照顧應該是一樣的，他們是提供水源讓都市人有自來水可用的地方，自己竟然沒辦法裝自來水！所以好幾年來我一直在拜託、要求，大概只要再花百來億，臺灣自來水的普及率還會更高。我覺得這個非常重要，所以我今天特別來這邊拜託，多一點經費、資源給我們的水利署和自來水公司，讓無自來水地區能慢慢地一直把自來水普及率提高上來。你讓我拜託一下，你關係很好，到行政院會拿到很多經費，這樣有困難嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，我個人也覺得這個事情要用更好的想像，所以有兩個方向，一個是水利署這邊去把60萬的金額提高，但是也跟委員講，有一些地方因為它很散，需要的經費真的遠遠高出60萬甚至80萬，我請署長去想一些聰明的方法，譬如說有沒有一些淨水設施，因為我們大旱的時候有一些廠商已經會做淨水設施，有沒有可能以這些淨水設施就近協助？這個經費相對也比較可行，可以讓更多的戶數來做。他們現在正在評估技術的部分、可行性的部分和經費的部分，我覺得這個說不定可以更加快來解決偏遠地區無自來水的問題。"],["陳委員超明：這個方式我贊成，因為我以前就提出了，要用科技方法來解決偏遠地區的問題，在那邊把淨水、濾水的功能做好，打地下水出來給他們，但是已經講了三、四年，四、五年了啦！早期我接觸過淨水、濾水，大概瞭解這些。要怎麼做可以節省很多成本？我也很希望你們趕快這樣去做，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["陳委員超明：賴署長，看著我，我以前跟你討論過了，還有自來水公司這邊也加強一下啦！不然我到地方上，大家天天都在追我，說：我們沒有自來水啦！他們有，我們怎麼沒有？我們很痛苦耶！"],["賴署長建信：有關委員建議的方向，部長在今年1月初的時候就找我們朝這個方向……"],["陳委員超明：好、好、好，我提出的建議總算被認同了，要好好做，我會盯緊。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：因為現在科技很發達。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["陳委員超明：接下來，大家都在討論電價上漲的問題，可是不曉得幅度是多少。我查了一下，我看你上漲電價留給國民黨執政來做好了，馬英九執政的時間一共漲了40.65%，蔡英文當總統是22.4%，你說你們慢慢漲，叫做「消波塊式」防止通貨膨脹，喔！好會取名字喔！這樣查起來好像沒多少。這一次電價大概要漲百分之幾？工業用電、特高壓用電、大戶用電，你跟我講一下我就知道了。"],["王部長美花：目前他們工作小組其實正在就各種方向進行討論，目前還沒有定案，這是真的。"],["陳委員超明：你這個部長真的很會做啦，還沒漲價以前就把這個漲價消息放出去，大家都以為會漲得很高，其實你在試水溫。所以從這個比例可以看出來，並不是國民黨執政時代漲價。你們以前都罵國民黨執政漲價，我看等國民黨執政再來給它漲。繼續凍漲就會繼續執政！你的看法怎麼樣？要不要漲？"],["王部長美花：沒有，所以這個……"],["陳委員超明：啊，都是兩套標準啦！"],["王部長美花：台電要穩健經營，它是很重要的。"],["陳委員超明：兩套標準！","接下來有一個問題可能會很嚴重：未來會不會缺電？"],["王部長美花：不會啦！我們非常努力在做這個事情。"],["陳委員超明：好、好、好，很有自信。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員超明：我看到世界最有錢的人──特斯拉執行長馬斯克說，現在是缺晶片，未來是缺電。AI的這些晶片是吃電的怪獸，你覺得不重要嗎？人家說以後不是缺晶片就是缺電，你要怎麼應付這個問題？你們有沒有去考慮？這可能是一個消息，但是也代表一個警訊。你們有準備嗎？"],["王部長美花：他這個AI講的……"],["陳委員超明：這份資料要不要給你們看？"],["王部長美花：這是兩個部分，因為目前在AI訓練的部分確實都是美國這幾家大公司，他們在訓練階段真的是用非常多的電。"],["陳委員超明：訓練的話大概不用什麼電，你不要把我偏離主題，因為AI……"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，是……"],["陳委員超明：因為AI是生產的電才吃得大。"],["王部長美花：是那個時候的用電最大，那個時候……"],["陳委員超明：訓練的時候用電最大？"],["王部長美花：對。在弄成一個AI模型的時候，用電量非常大，所以他們提到的是，這個部分的用電真的是吃電怪獸，後續的應用相對比較小。"],["陳委員超明：好，這一點我學習到了，原來是那個時候用電最大，我要去瞭解一下。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員超明：我看了幾個工業會、工商總會還是工業總會提出的產業報告，幾乎六大工業總會都希望核能電廠能延役。新國會準備要解套這個問題，而執政黨是把反核當做神主牌，你的看法是要不要延役？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：你要跟我講實際的喔！你在這裡不要不好意思說，只在為你們的政策辯護，現在要面對我們現實面臨的實際問題，有沒有希望延役？"],["王部長美花：第一個，當然在這裡面委員有一些針對延役的提案，但是這個法律的提案，我們尊重委員。"],["陳委員超明：國會除了男人不能生孩子這點不能改變以外，其他都可以改變，你們也常常在改變！你要不要？"],["王部長美花：事實上核電有幾個面向，我的報告也有提到，一個是法律面，最重要的是核能安全，這要由核安會來審查。"],["陳委員超明：只要二、三廠都沒有意外，我們……"],["王部長美花：還有核廢料的問題。"],["陳委員超明：我現在只問你如果缺電的話，要不要延役啦！你跟我講句比較實在的話啦！我看你左右為難。"],["王部長美花：這個是兩件事，我們……"],["陳委員超明：不是兩件事情，我問的是一件事情，你要如何解決？你跟我……"],["王部長美花：我們對電力的供給目前都有非常多……"],["陳委員超明：你們有沒有要支持核電廠延役？我只問這個重心點的問題。"],["王部長美花：核電廠延役其實第一個問題就是安全的問題，第二個是社會大家要有……"],["陳委員超明：如果安全有問題呢？"],["王部長美花：大家要有共識。"],["陳委員超明：大家如果有共識了，你們會不會反對？"],["王部長美花：這些大前提如果都能夠解決，那當然是一個……"],["陳委員超明：所以表示有共識，你們不反對……"],["王部長美花：社會上要有共識……"],["陳委員超明：那核電的神主牌就要被打破了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：我有講，其實核電主要是安全的問題。"],["陳委員超明：我曉得你很難為地回答。現在兩年了，幾十年把國家投資的核電廠將近5,000億，你們也把它擺在那邊、把它報廢掉，現在也來延役、要怎麼樣，總經理，你要不要回答一下？還是能源局局長來回答？我看到你們碰到核電廠要不要延役都閃來閃去。總經理，那兩個核電廠一年幫你們賺400億，你要怎麼去解決這個問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：核電廠延役誠如剛才部長講的，它是個安全問題，這些都必須要先克服……"],["陳委員超明：難怪你會繼續當總經理，你也很優秀。我跟你講，你要表示態度，萬一缺電、萬一需要核電廠，你不要說在野黨把這個打破……以前你們從來就是反對核能發電，核能發電都綠能，這裡面5個公會的理事長都一直要求考慮核電廠要不要延役、能把電費降低一下。你們現在遇到這個問題都不敢講，國民黨笨笨的，最大的在野黨笨笨的，要幫你們擦屁股，要看你們的態度，如果你們不敢講支持核電廠延役，我想就不要給它通過最好，也保持了你們民進黨執政的獨立性。要還是不要就看你們怎麼講，不要閃來閃去，因為我相信核電廠不延役，缺電的情形會滿嚴重，不要翻來覆去，私底下我都有去探聽過，台電苦不堪言。主席站起來了，我要下台了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。","接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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自來水的地區﹐我們叫做偏遠的地區﹐也比較落後的地區﹐即使這個是水資源含有最重要的地區﹐他們要裝自來水都這樣補了這60萬、50萬人"},{"start":80.237,"end":105.944,"text":"我覺得這個要照顧民生都要一樣,還是給你提供水源的地方竟然裝不到自來水,讓你這裡多錢人都在用所以我好幾年我一直在拜託要求,大概再開8個月台灣的自來水大概普及率就會很高我覺得這個非常重要,所以我今天來這邊特別拜託多一點經費"},{"start":107.825,"end":124.357,"text":"支援給我們的水利市給我們的自來水公司讓這個自來水地區能馬上把它慢慢的一直把自來水的普及率普及出來你好好拜託你關係很好到行政院會拿到很多的獎勵這樣有困難嗎?"},{"start":126.318,"end":128.842,"text":"跟委員報告因為我個人也覺得這個事情要用更好的想像所以兩個方向一個就是水利署這邊也去把這個60萬的部分拉高來提高這個門檻"},{"start":141.138,"end":145.92,"text":"但是也跟委員講有一些地方因為他很善他要的經費真的遠遠高出60萬甚至80萬那我請署長說去想一些聰明的方法比如說有沒有一些淨水設施因為我們大旱的時候有一些廠商已經會做淨水設施那有沒有可能這些淨水設施就近那這個經費相對也比較可惜那可以讓更多的戶數來做那他們現在正在評估"},{"start":169.927,"end":185.53,"text":"技術的部分可行性的部分經費的部分我覺得這個是不是可以更加快來解決這個偏遠地區的無自來水的問題這個方式我贊成是因為我以前就提出了要用科技方法來解決偏遠的地區"},{"start":186.651,"end":206.382,"text":"在那邊你淨水、瀝水的功能做好打地下水出來給他們但是已經講了3、4年、4、5年了這個早期我沒過淨水、瀝水我大概了解這些我們要怎麼來做可以省了很多的成本所以希望您趕快這樣子去做好不好"},{"start":207.807,"end":210.888,"text":"委員建議的方向,部長在今年的1月初的時候就找我們朝這個方向"},{"start":231.896,"end":237.424,"text":"總算我最後提出的爭議被認同了要好好做我會盯得緊因為現在這個科技也很發達請回座"},{"start":243.588,"end":254.417,"text":"大家都討論電價的上漲大家也不曉得幅度有多少我查了一下我看你這個上漲電價留給國民黨來執政馬英九執政的時間一共漲了40.65%蔡英文當總統的話"},{"start":263.584,"end":283.793,"text":"是22.4% 啊你說你們慢慢漲叫做消波制防止我們的通貨膨脹 喔 命很高企的 實在 這樣快點炒到沒法去 休一次你大概漲現在要漲幾% 工業用電 高鐵要用電 大副用電 你告訴我我就知道了"},{"start":284.591,"end":300.823,"text":"目前他們工作相組其實正在就各種的方向正在討論目前還沒有定案是真的還沒漲價疫情就把這個漲價消息放出去大家都以為漲得很高你在試水文"},{"start":301.804,"end":313.23,"text":"所以這個比例可以看出來不是國民黨時代長假你們以前都罵國民黨長假我看國民黨執政再來給他長繼續動長就會繼續執政你看法怎麼樣?要不要長?兩套的標準再來有一個問題可能會很嚴重未來會不會缺電?"},{"start":332.247,"end":361.11,"text":"不會啦,我們非常努力在做這個事情很有自信現在我看了一個那個特斯拉的執行長叫做馬斯克世界最有錢的人他說現在是缺晶片未來是缺電晶片的話AAI的這些晶片是吃電的怪獸你覺得沒重要人家是幾十年以後不是缺晶片就是缺電啦"},{"start":362.21,"end":368.87,"text":"你怎麼來應付這個問題?你們有沒有去考慮?這個可能是一個消息但是也是代表著一個警訊"},{"start":370.816,"end":395.53,"text":"你有準備吧?那個資料我要給你們看吧?因為現在目前在這個AI訓練的部分確實都是美國這幾個大公司那他們這個在訓練階段真的是用非常多的電訓練的話是大概不用什麼你不要把我騙你死體因為AI你生產的電才要吃得到沒有沒有是那個時候的用電最大"},{"start":396.07,"end":397.231,"text":"我看了我們幾個工業會工商總會還是工業總會提出的一個產業報告裡面"},{"start":424.501,"end":440.529,"text":"幾乎六大工業總會都希望核能、核能產能延運那新國會準備要解套這個問題阿民執政黨是把核能當作行之百你的看法要不要延運?"},{"start":442.451,"end":444.352,"text":" 你要告訴我一件事嗎?"},{"start":444.352,"end":445.292,"text":"這個可能要不要研議?"},{"start":445.292,"end":456.32,"text":"你不是在這裡排斥共和為了你們政策辯論 現在是對著我們現實面臨的實際的問題 有沒有希望、原因?"},{"start":457.211,"end":476.995,"text":"第一個當然在這個裡面委員有一些對演繹的提案但是這個法律的提案你法律的提案什麼不是國會裡面就是說不會把男的不能生孩子這個不能改變的話其他都可以改變你們也常常在改變你要不要"},{"start":478.421,"end":489.831,"text":"市商核電就幾個面向所以我報告也有提到一個是法律面最重要是核能安全那要有核安會來審討還有核廢電的問題我現在只問你如果缺電的話要不要研議啦你給我說一下才知道啦"},{"start":496.917,"end":510.084,"text":"我看你左右為難這個是兩兩兩件事然後我們我們問的是一件事情你要熱解我們對電力的攻擊齁目前都有沒有要支持核電廠研議我只問了重心點的問題"},{"start":511.431,"end":530.138,"text":"核電廠研議其實第一個問題就是安全的問題第二個是大家要有共識阿大家如果有共識的你們會不會反對這些的大前提如果都能夠解決那當然是一個所以表示有共識你們不反對了那核電的繩子牌就要被打破了對不對"},{"start":531.594,"end":554.546,"text":"我有講喔,其實核電一定要是安全的問題很難為的回答你現在現在兩年幾十年把國家投資的核電廠將近5000億你們也把它擺在那邊把它報廢掉好,現在原來演藝要怎麼樣總經理你要不要回答一下還是能演幾場我看到你們碰到核電廠要不會演藝都閃來閃去啊"},{"start":558.986,"end":579.798,"text":"總經理 那個兩個核電廠一年幫你們賺400億喔你要怎麼去解決這個問題核電廠原理 純如剛才部長講的 它是一個安全問題 這些都必須要先克服難怪你會繼續當總經理 你也很優秀我跟你講 表示態度"},{"start":581.17,"end":603.07,"text":"萬一缺電萬一需要核能廠你不要說那個在野黨把這個打破以前你們從來就是反對核能發電核能發電都利冷這裡面五個工會的理事長都一直要求考慮核電廠要不要延運能把定位降低一下"},{"start":604.451,"end":618.84,"text":"你們現在出了這個問題都不跟我說,要國民黨往往,最大的在野黨往往,要趕你們擦屁股,要看你們態度。如果你們不敢講說支持核電廠研議,我相信不要給他通過最好。"},{"start":620.32,"end":622.963,"text":"會保持人民進黨執政的獨立性。"},{"start":650.78,"end":651.285,"text":"謝謝陳超明委員"}]}},{"id":"149787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69039b08582dd377808db77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6e4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:02:04 - 11:14:02","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":718,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:14:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:02:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時2分）主席，各位列席委員，大家好。主席，我想請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長好。今年2月29日舉辦記者會，把今年CPI年增率上修至1.18%。"],["朱主計長澤民：1.85%。"],["顏委員寬恒：不好意思，講錯了，1.85%。今年2月CPI指數年增率飆上3.08%，那是近20個月以來最高、新高，這應該是沒有考量電費上漲的問題？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果加上4月份電費上漲，我國今年CPI會不會再一次的突破通膨警戒線？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，是有可能。"],["顏委員寬恒：極有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：2月份的消費指數年增率為3.08%，已經是20個月裡面最高，你可以說是因為春節物價上漲，如果以1到2月份平均來講，CPI已經上升2.43%是處於高檔，有沒有可能外食費、房租費都持續上漲，再加上4月份的電價上漲，有業者就是把這些電費直接轉嫁到消費者的身上，不管你是外食族還是租屋族，任何一個行業都會，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，電價如果是民生用電，會由消費者負擔，外食費目前還在漲的趨勢，前些時候都有4%的成長，不過它現在還是在漲，可是漲幅有降低的現象……"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，通膨什麼的都在漲，萬物齊漲，電費也要漲，接下來水費，我想也要漲了，都在漲！所以整體的物價指數肯定是下不來，今年1月、2月醫院、診所的掛號費也漲了，診所漲了10%，醫院漲1.49%，其實再加上外食費、房租之類的，外食費漲0.48%，這些東西不會有再調降的可能，對不對？可不可以這麼講，不會調降了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，它漲了以後就……"],["顏委員寬恒：調不回來了？"],["朱主計長澤民：一般都是比較不會回到……"],["顏委員寬恒：漲了，就回不來了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，對吧？漲了就回不來了，所以大家也不用再去說政府怎麼樣調控，可以讓物價降低。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個市場現象，不可能啦！"],["顏委員寬恒：不可能了啦？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以今天是大白話，不可能回來了啦。","我們每年調高基本薪資，調高基本薪資是不是也是物價上漲的一個元兇、一個幫助犯？因為調高薪資，所以物價也跟著漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：兩個的因果關係很難講，因為物價漲了，薪資如果不漲也好像不是很妥當。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是跟著上嗎，就是我們漲是美化數字，但是就跟不上了，你漲一點，它就漲得比你更快一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦！除非它漲得很高，因為薪水的漲幅一般可能是在後面。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們會越來越窮，目前的情況是這樣，就是越來越窮，尤其我們經常性薪資平均4萬5,496元，實質經常性薪資是4萬1,334元，其實調整後的數字，實質經常性的薪資又降低了0.5%，連續3年來的負數，實質總薪資也減少了1.04%，是7年來首度的負成長，所以這就是告訴我們確實是越來越窮，加薪的速度遠遠跟不上，而通膨，現在萬物齊漲，光是外食族現在買一個100元以下的便當，買得到嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：應該買不到了，不過就像雞腿便當大概120元，排骨便當中、南部有大概八、九十元的。"],["顏委員寬恒：租金呢？如果租房呢？現在1萬塊以下的房屋還有嗎？就是我們說的租屋。"],["朱主計長澤民：那可能要分租。"],["顏委員寬恒：分租？我跟你講，現在戲稱臺北市要租6,000元、7,000元、8,000元的房屋叫做鬼屋，所以你就知道多恐怖。現在我們的實質經常性薪資都是負數，大家都在討論這樣的情況，剛剛我們前面幾位委員也都有問到這些，通膨跟薪資水平之間面臨的挑戰，我們只是不斷地討論，到底有沒有什麼解決的辦法？因為我要講，我們剛剛提到的薪資，經常性的四萬五千多元，實質性的四萬一千多，實際上，光是現在在這個會場現場裡面的很多工作人員，有沒有四萬多、五萬多的薪水？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟各位委員報告一下，我們所謂的薪資是包括各項福利性所得，就是有老闆所負擔的勞退費用，統統都有在裡面……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我說的就是其實很多基層，不管是我們立法院的工作同仁，還是很多基層的公務人員都一樣，他們的薪水都是我們剛剛公布的這個基準線以下。"],["朱主計長澤民：平均數……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，平均數以下，所以是非常、非常辛苦的。我想要請問主計長，我們到底要怎麼樣才能夠解決這種低薪高通膨的問題？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為在經濟學上，薪水就等於他對這個企業或這個單位的貢獻有多少、他產出的價值有多少，所以他要有良好的產出，他才有高價值的東西，所以他的薪水才……","另外一個，如果沒有辦法，就是社會福利政策，就像基本工資的提升，或者是政府給予補助。"],["顏委員寬恒：補貼，你能舉例嗎？怎麼樣來補貼，可以讓民眾覺得好過、覺得不會越來越窮？"],["朱主計長澤民：像我們對年輕人的育兒津貼，生一個補助5,000元，生兩個就1萬元，或者是對那些租屋族，我們有一個……"],["顏委員寬恒：這幾項可能地方政府也都在做，生育補貼……"],["朱主計長澤民：生育補貼，地方政府都是補助生產的那一次，我們是每個月。"],["顏委員寬恒：每個月？有辦法每個月嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：每個月5,000，一年就6萬了。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是啦，我們在這邊討論這些問題是要找出怎麼樣解決薪資的問題，跟這些物價上漲的問題。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：但是我發覺我們在討論這一些，不管是怎麼樣提高基本薪資，都是在美化數字，永遠跟不上，所以政府要怎麼樣去調控這些通膨，有沒有有效的抑制通膨？這個才是重點。"],["朱主計長澤民：有時候市場制度，我們必須尊重，但是不恰當的物價上漲，公平會就要看看有沒有聯合壟斷，法務部就看他們有沒有囤積居奇。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。主計長，我們要考慮到真實的數字，不是美化過後的數字，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們不會啦！我們的統計數字都是真實的。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在百姓的生活痛苦指數不斷升高，非常、非常的高，對吧？我們再加油，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們請審計長。"],["主席：謝謝，請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：審計長好。我們有一個300億租金補貼計畫，到今年2月底受理大概61萬戶，核定的件數43萬戶，有超過三成，即30%的人拿不到這個補貼。本席認為這300億的補貼政策是好的，但是實際上拿到的卻不到七成，你可不可以告訴我為什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為大家租屋會有些隱瞞，有一些人希望能夠避稅，所以造成一些問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我直接問重點，時間的問題啦！","我在這個社群平台上看到，有些人的申請，第一期通過了補貼，第二期卻被討回，因為他沒有房屋稅籍、沒有稅單，但應該是去要求房東拿房屋稅單去補房屋稅。結果卻不是這樣，反而要申請補貼的房客取消他的補貼，要他歸還，這樣子對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這樣……"],["顏委員寬恒：這樣不對嘛！你們規定在申請補貼的時候不需要知會房東，也不需要房東同意嘛！他當然拿不到也不知道有沒有房屋稅籍，但他就是因為有需要，也符合規定才來申請租屋補貼。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是你補貼他之後，又或者他在申請過程當中，你就直接告訴他不符規定。為什麼第一期會符合規定補貼他，之後第二期還要叫他返還？我要問的問題是，第一期在審查的時候是亂審的嗎？他有租屋的事實，可是你給他補貼之後，又反過頭來討回去，這是不是就證明你第一期在審查的時候是亂審查的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會照內政部在處理這個的時候……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，不要讓人家有這是一個有選擇性的錯覺，是不是因為在選舉前？因為這個很多會在社群平台上到處傳，是不是因為在選舉前就隨便審？先讓它過，選完後再按步就班來審，對不對？我不管你們的想法是怎麼樣、你們的做法是怎麼樣，如果有漏洞就趕快填補。我們要符合公平的機制，讓這些申請租屋優惠的租屋族能夠有一個好的依據；至於房東願不願意提供，或者是他有沒有房屋稅籍，應該是要求房東去補這個房屋稅，而不是要房客去返還他的補貼嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的想法很好，我們會告訴內政部。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，好，審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe伍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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漲幅有降低的現象通膨齁什麼都在漲萬物期漲電費也要漲齁那接下來水費我想也要漲了都在漲那所以這個整體的物價指數肯定是下不來今年1、2月"},{"start":127.115,"end":135.445,"text":"議員診所掛號費也漲了那個診所漲了10%醫院漲1.49%那這些其實再加上外食費房租什麼外食費漲0.48%那這些東西不會有再調降的可能對不對可不可以這麼講不會調降的"},{"start":144.253,"end":145.154,"text":"每年調高基本薪資"},{"start":171.145,"end":190.158,"text":"這個調高資本薪資是不是也是物價上漲的一個元兇一個幫助犯因為調高薪資所以物價也跟著漲那個兩個的因果關係很難講因為物價漲了啊薪資如果不漲也好像不會很頭疼可是跟得上嗎就是我們漲是美化數字就對不對啊你起一次他起比你快啊"},{"start":192.38,"end":208.53,"text":"對,可是除非他漲得很高因為薪水的漲幅一般可能是在後面所以我們會越來越窮目前的情況是這樣子就越來越窮尤其我們的經常性薪資平均4549645496元實時經常性薪資是41334那這個部分"},{"start":215.974,"end":241.574,"text":"裡面其實那個調整後的數字就是說實質經常性的薪資又降低了0.5%是連續3年來的負數那總實質總薪資也減少了1.04%是7年來的負成長首度的負成長所以這就是告訴我們是確實是越來越窮那加薪的速度遠遠跟不上"},{"start":242.395,"end":268.577,"text":"那通膨現在萬物起漲現在說光是外食族現在要買一個100塊以下的便當買得到嗎應該買不到啦不過就像雞腿便當大概120塊啦排骨便當中南部有大概大概80塊那租金啊如果租房呢現在1萬塊以下的房屋還有嗎就房屋啦我們說的租屋啦欸那個可能要分租啊分租"},{"start":270.244,"end":297.437,"text":"我會講我們現在很多戲稱說臺北市要租6千塊7千塊8千塊房屋那個叫做鬼屋啦叫做鬼屋啦所以你就知道說多恐怖啦那現在我們的實質經常性薪資都是負數那大家都在討論這樣子的情況那剛剛我們前面幾位委員也都有把這個都問到這些那通膨跟薪資水平之間的面臨的挑戰到底我們只是"},{"start":298.798,"end":302.702,"text":"阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗阿朗"},{"start":319.659,"end":341.816,"text":"在這個會場裡面的我們的很多工作人員那薪水有沒有這個薪水有沒有4萬多5萬多那個我們所謂的那個薪資我跟各位報告一下是包括各項那個所謂的福利性所得就是他有老闆所負擔的勞退的費用通通有在裡面"},{"start":342.756,"end":368.851,"text":"所以我說就是說其實很多基層的不管是我們的立法院的工作同仁還是很多基層的工人都一樣他們的薪水都是在這個我們剛剛公布的這個基層線以下平均數以下所以是非常非常辛苦的所以我想要請主計長就是說我們到底要怎麼樣才能夠解決這種低薪高通膨的問題"},{"start":371.939,"end":386.725,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下因為在經濟學上薪水就等於說他對這個企業或對這個單位的貢獻有多少或他產出出來價值有多少所以他應該要他接受就是說有一個良好的"},{"start":387.506,"end":401.544,"text":"閃出所以他才有那個高價值的東西所以他薪水才才才必要那另外一個如果沒有辦法的話就是社會福利政策就叫基本工資提升啊或者是政府給補助啊"},{"start":402.245,"end":409.45,"text":"那補貼你能提舉意嗎?怎麼樣來補貼?讓民眾覺得好過?覺得說不會越來越窮?年輕人他們的育兒津貼一個人是一個補助五千、兩個就一萬或者是對那些租屋族我們有一個那個這些各項可能地方政府也都在做啦生意補貼啊然後這個"},{"start":428.004,"end":439.354,"text":"生意部這地方政府都把新的那個蓋,我們是每個月啦每個月五千啦,每個月五千啊不是啦,我想我們在這邊討論這些問題是要找出什麼樣解決這個薪資的問題跟這些物價上漲的問題但是我發覺我們在"},{"start":452.785,"end":477.352,"text":"談論這些不管是怎麼樣提高基本薪資都是在美化數字永遠跟不上所以政府要怎麼樣去調控這些通膨有沒有做一個有效的意識通膨這個才是重點有時候市場制度我們必須尊重但是我們是不恰當的一個市場物價上漲公平會他就要看看有沒有聯絡壟斷"},{"start":480.654,"end":500.166,"text":"法務部就看他們有沒有囤積居期好主計長我們要考慮到真實的數字不是美化過後的數字好不好我們的統計數字都是真實的我現在百姓的生活這個生活痛苦指數不斷的升高阿非常非常的高阿對不對好不好應該加油好不好謝謝請審計長謝謝請審計長"},{"start":510.759,"end":510.779,"text":"陳鴻沃"},{"start":513.823,"end":541.652,"text":"委員好 市長好到今年二月底受理這個申辦我們有一個300億租金補貼計畫那受理的大概61萬戶合定的建樹43萬戶那有超過三成包括30%的人拿不到這個補貼那我本期認為說這個300億的補貼政策是好的但是實際上拿到的卻不到七成"},{"start":542.608,"end":567.483,"text":"那你可不可以告訴我為什麼這個因為有一些大家因為租嘛有些隱瞞所以造成有一些希望能夠避稅所以造成一些問題我直接問重點時間的問題我在這個社群平台上面看到就是說無房屋稅籍無房屋稅籍"},{"start":568.536,"end":596.323,"text":"有些這個就是說他申請的時候第一期通過了第一期通過補貼但是第二期卻被討回因為他沒有房屋稅集沒有稅單那應該是要去要求房東要補稅房屋稅單應該要補這個房屋稅嘛結果不是他等到來是把這個處課我們說的房客申請的申請補貼的房客取消他的補貼要他歸還"},{"start":597.463,"end":613.404,"text":"啊這樣子對嗎?這樣不對嘛對不對你們規定說在申請補貸的時候不需要智慧房東嘛也不需要房東同意嘛那當然他也拿不到他也不知道有沒有房屋稅籍啊他就是因為有需要"},{"start":614.165,"end":632.727,"text":"所以他才也符合規定所以他才申請這個租屋補貼可是你補貼他之後又或者他在申請過程當中你就直接告訴他說你不符規定那第一期為什麼第一期會符合規定補貼他那之後第二期還要叫他返還是"},{"start":633.905,"end":655.106,"text":"我要問一問你說第一期在審查的時候是亂審嗎?還是說他有租屋的事實啊可是你補貼報他之後反正回來又把它拖回來然後可是不是證明你第一期在審查的時候是亂審查?這個我們會照內政部在處理這個的時候不要讓人家有那個錯覺說是一個選擇性的因為"},{"start":659.033,"end":675.48,"text":"是不是因為選舉前就是在社群平台上面到處在傳是不是因為選舉前就是隨便審啊 太過分了啊 選了啊 再叫其他人來 對不對 這我不管你們的想法是怎麼樣你們的做法是怎麼樣 如果有漏洞我們趕快把它填補"},{"start":676.4,"end":701.512,"text":"那我們要符合公平機制讓我們申請這個租屋優惠的這一些房客就是我們這些租屋主能夠有一個好的依據那房東願不願意提供或者說他有沒有房屋稅籍應該是要求房東去補這個房屋稅而不是要房客去去去要求返還他的補貼嗎對不對好不好 委員的想法很好我們會告示內政部OK好謝謝沈議長謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":707.799,"end":707.959,"text":"接受質詢請吳立華吳委員"}]}},{"id":"149786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690388c84b69406c399833e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a60c48c7cb505eef785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:03:03 - 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對不對 是 那你們預估啊 這個併網期程會延後多久"},{"start":220.107,"end":246.965,"text":"目前我們其實會跟他們來做仔細的討論那他們有提到一個非常不可控制就是船另外就是說排船起他們如果說國際上的沒有足夠的船來安裝的話也會是一個非常重要的因素大家都要搶船嘛 對不對然後國際大環境也不可能瞬間變化一定需要長期慢慢的這個調整嘛"},{"start":247.845,"end":256.76,"text":"對不對,所以這種我覺得延後兩三年有可能嗎?我們最近會密集來跟他們討論另外國產化,國產化會當然一個歷練什麼會增加嘛之前我跟妳討論過了"},{"start":261.539,"end":285.39,"text":"國產化跟綠電的供應量增加跟國產化這個到位到底你這個要怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點沒有錯就是這個部分我們確實都會非常細膩的然後也來看國內的這個供應量到底能夠供應的量是多少然後來做這個兩方面的一個考量這個你要去權衡都能夠雙贏不要變成雙輸"},{"start":289.612,"end":317.385,"text":"另外,中小集創新創事業署賴副總統曾經公布在去年9月打造新創雨林的生態系這是一個國政白皮書,國政的願景然後也通過亞洲矽谷3.0當然這是國會的業務我也召開這個相關的,不光說修法﹖或者是政策必須要做調整"},{"start":318.425,"end":331.902,"text":"所以這個部分啊 這個中小跟新創企業組相對在部裡面的這個聲音比較小 但新創很重要我提出的修法 我希望那個 組長、副組長 你了解我的修法內容嗎?"},{"start":334.428,"end":337.672,"text":"我會要求你們針對這個新創創投跟新創事業每年度都要比照中小企業白皮書一樣"},{"start":353.971,"end":354.251,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":384.517,"end":385.148,"text":"把他弄一本出來"},{"start":386.734,"end":387.234,"text":"新創事業白皮書"},{"start":415.677,"end":426.52,"text":"主席,今年越快越好。另外,如果提升台灣在AI產業的產值跟國際的話語權,"},{"start":437.482,"end":457.058,"text":"台灣深層式AI的興起如果沒有趕上時代這個可能會造成重大的國安危機所以我們的AI的經濟產值跟AI的國際話語權必須要提高產值要提高話語權也要增加這牽涉到什麼AI模型的建立有幾個階段"},{"start":458.837,"end":466.904,"text":"包括預先訓練、落地微調、推論應用這部分我想這個邏輯很清楚這部分你必須要經濟部、蘇發部跟其他的跨部會你要把這個數位轉型這個三階段AI模型建立三階段把它迅速到位"},{"start":485.257,"end":506.202,"text":"這部分這個經濟部有沒有什麼想法?有,其實跨部會都有在討論這個部分那目前大家覺得就左邊第一個那個Pretraining的部分大家認為這個部分因為他投入資源非常大那台灣應該不要先就講這一個部分但是對第二個跟第三個部分"},{"start":507.543,"end":513.09,"text":"參觀學界都應該要針對特別應用領域有培訓的AI專業機器﹖包括律師、法官、會計師所有專業人員都需要落地的微調﹖"},{"start":524.588,"end":542.233,"text":"需要有這個應用領域的專業技能這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法?對,我們經濟部來講我們其實每個禮拜的業務會報都有一個專門的時間討論這個議題但是Fightuning的這個訓練成本很高啊Fightuning的部分事實上你部長有沒有什麼怎麼樣把這個成本過高的問題來降低"},{"start":551.631,"end":577.134,"text":"目前國科會這邊是有國際的這個比較開放是Lama2的這樣的一個軟體來做相關的training然後另外有一個中文的資料庫的系統在做有和全方位的把AI這個模型的AI模型的這個微調訓練成本把它降低你才能普及化是對不對才能各行各地都能運用這個如果你沒有這個"},{"start":578.156,"end":582.811,"text":"各行各域普及應用的話會變成國安危機跟其他國家我們就趕不上"},{"start":584.099,"end":611.995,"text":"所以這部分我覺得這個AI未來這個怎麼樣的產值能夠提高怎麼樣影響用我們的現在優勢能不能增加國際化學權這個經濟部要很重視是有有我們覺得這是臺灣已經有很好的AI晶片了然後再往前推AI的設計然後另外怎麼樣到各行各業AI的應用這個部分那確實臺灣也很有機會把它做好因為本行已經算是資深了"},{"start":613.516,"end":621.083,"text":"這個要遵守這個質詢的紀律。時間到了我就應該要。時間到了。提供給這個新進的這個立法委員一個質詢的一個倫理。"}]}},{"id":"149785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69036a6bb029c0a18d7a14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a63582eaed42b6d64d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:58:25 - 11:10:49","影片長度":"00:12:24","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":744,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:10:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:58:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1049,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時58分）主席，我們請海委會管主委。"],["主席：請我們的管主委。"],["許委員宇甄：管主委你好，請問一下管主委，國防部邱國正部長3月7日在立法院備詢的時候，表示他每天提心吊膽，睡得不好。CNN著名的國際情勢分析節目的主持人，也在最新一篇的評論文章中提出臺海情勢沒有最危險，只有更危險。所以目前在金門的這個，之前在金門海巡署在取締大陸船舶的時候發生衝撞，也造成大陸方兩死的不幸事件，隨後大陸的船艦也屢次進入我國的海域，最近一次是在新竹海域，有三艘大型漁船進入我國領海內的6浬處，海巡署沒有驅離對方，只有監控而已。而現在海巡署會經常面對大陸船舶進入我領海的事件，請問管主委，您晚上睡得好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我想政治性的語言我如果多說的話又是風風雨雨，請委員原諒我，我不直接用政治性的語言來回答這個課題。我只能夠說，海巡署的同仁依法所作的執法，每天24小時，一年365天，他們謹守自己的崗位，非常努力在做。我們的目的就是要維持和平，就是要保護人民平安，國安、治安、平安都是我們的責任。"],["許委員宇甄：當然我們非常支持海巡署這樣依法行政，這是沒有問題的，但是您是不是也認為兩岸有可能因此擦槍走火？海巡署現在面對侵入我國領海的大陸船舶會持什麼樣的態度？會不會像前幾天一樣只是監控而已……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前還是依法行政，前幾天是……"],["許委員宇甄：我們原先規劃的禁限制海域或者是以前所謂的海峽中線是不是就沒有了？這樣民進黨是不是喪失主權，而且面對大陸處處進逼手足無措？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為一次驅離遇到這樣的海象跟調度上的情景，然後就說是沒收主權，我認為是比較跳躍式的連結。在增加我們人力的部分，行政院給我們增加六百多個員額，我們在造新船的部分，今年會有22艘新船……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，現在應該不是只有我們覺得危險……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不斷的增加量能。"],["許委員宇甄：連美國都替我們覺得很擔心。針對這個部分，我們當然希望憾事不要再發生，未來要怎麼加強海巡署的裝備，讓我們在整個執勤的過程中，海巡弟兄都能夠有很充分的準備，然後所有該依法行政的、該執勤的，我們絕對都尊重……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以去年3月我就請海巡盤點……"],["許委員宇甄：但是還是希望未來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：計畫已經做好了。我真得很關心，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分還是希望主委能夠支持海巡弟兄，讓我們的海巡弟兄可以在依法執勤的時候，能夠非常……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我就是盡全力幫海巡找資源。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分去年3月我就要求全面盤點。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝管主委，我想……"],["管主任委員碧玲：4月要求盤點的結果要建案。"],["許委員宇甄：好……"],["管主任委員碧玲：然後7月的時候就有一個雛形。"],["許委員宇甄：管主委既然每個月都已經大概預設要怎麼進行了，是不是會後把相關的資料給本席？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["許委員宇甄：當然今天最主要是要請教管主委海洋保育法，海洋保育的觀念日益受到重視，我們也都非常支持海洋保育，但是現行的海洋保育跟利用，有野生動物保育法、國家公園法、溼地保育法、國土計畫法、都市計畫法、海岸管理法、漁業法、地下文化資產保存法、發展觀光條例，跨越很多部會，而且目前各法令劃設的海洋保育區域有69個，請問管主委，這樣的面積有多大？"],["管主任委員碧玲：總共的海域面積應該是5,400平方公里。"],["許委員宇甄：各部會訂定的海洋保育法規……"],["管主任委員碧玲：而且中央跟地方都有。"],["許委員宇甄：好，剛剛講各部會訂定的海洋保育法規，它的實際執行情形、成效如何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：各部會的法規名稱不一樣，不是叫海洋保育法……"],["許委員宇甄：對，他們的海洋保育法規。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有的是水下文化資產，有的是漁業資源……"],["許委員宇甄：對，他們目前實施的成效如何？有什麼不足之處？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們今年會有一個評鑑制度往前走，過去我們也曾經有過考核，剛剛也有委員把110年跟111年的考核結果呈現了一下。我自己過去當委員的時候也曾經質疑過，為什麼成效不彰？過去確實是這樣，海保署經過一個保護區的治理平臺之後進步很多，今年開始我們就要走評鑑制度，未來海保法……"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在就是有不足之處。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以未來的海保法有條文在裡面，我們要整合這些保護區的管理。"],["許委員宇甄：我想再請教管主委，2019年海洋基本法通過以後，有提到2年內要制定子法，請問為什麼拖到這個時候才送過來？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為沒有共識，所以溝通非常久。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有共識是指跟各部會沒有共識嗎？還是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括各用海單位、利害關係的各方，一定是各方有共識，部會才會有共識……"],["許委員宇甄：現在已經有共識了嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：已經有共識所以才會送出來，今天漁業署署長也在，我們是不是請署長也說明一下？"],["許委員宇甄：沒關係……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有沒有必要？"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分我想要瞭解，其實從2019年海洋基本法通過之後，應該是2021……"],["管主任委員碧玲：最主要是經濟部跟漁業……"],["許委員宇甄：應該2021年就要提出，現在已經2024年了，所以我在想……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我才會那麼急。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼在大選之前你們不提出，現在大選過後就急忙提出，是不是有選票的考量？"],["管主任委員碧玲：去年也就是上個會期的時候，我們草案剛做好，可是最後一波漁業署還是建議我們跟漁業界再溝通，所以上個會期卡住是因為漁業署希望我們再跟漁業界溝通……"],["許委員宇甄：非常好，我想……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以我們各區都去溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：主委也非常認同要跟漁業界再溝通……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：我們制定海洋保育法牽涉很廣，不管是從中央部會、各縣市政府、地方漁會還有漁民，尤其是有加大禁限制區域及加重管制強度，一定會傷害到漁民捕撈的權益……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們審議會的機制是不要傷害……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，您剛剛說有跟漁民溝通，請問開了多少場座談會跟公聽會？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我自己有參加的部分就是跟區漁會的幹部、總幹事的會議，我自己參加的至少就有三場，我們海保署的同仁也做了其他很多溝通，甚至於是一個區漁會、一個區漁會當面拜訪，我們把所有的區漁會都走過一圈。"],["許委員宇甄：不過跟主委講，其實我到目前為止還是收到很多漁會陳情，表示我們的溝通還不是很完善，所以我也要求海委會要分區辦理公聽會，等彙整好大家的意見之後，我們再逐條審查。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我剛剛有說明，頻率最高的溝通不是這個時候，這個時候如果不往前走，你永遠沒辦法走到真正需要溝通的那個階段。最需要溝通的階段……"],["許委員宇甄：這個海保法通過之後，最會影響到的就是漁民的權益，如果連漁民、漁會都沒有辦法得到你們的認同，這樣子的海洋保育法通過之後，造成漁業的損失、漁民的損失，誰來負責？這個部分本席提出這樣的要求……"],["管主任委員碧玲：漁業署也有一直在幫忙溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，針對海洋保育法的條文，也跟管主委請教幾個問題。海洋保育法要新設海洋庇護區，其中分為永續利用區、緩衝區、核心區，請問海洋庇護區的範圍有多大，要怎麼界定？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個現在沒辦法回答，我們取最出名的大堡礁保護區來看，它的庇護區只有5%而已，很少，我們也看到很多海洋保育保護區的核心區，像大堡礁的核心區大概5%，很多保護區的核心區是很曲折、很細長的。"],["許委員宇甄：因為時間的關係，我大概知道了，所以主委的意思是你們會針對這個審慎的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：每一個個案……"],["許委員宇甄：好好的循序漸進的處理，主委的意思是這樣嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來劃設的時候絕對是那樣的過程……"],["許委員宇甄：好，另外本席希望……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是很需要的是這個法趕快通過。"],["許委員宇甄：有關審議會的成員，因為剛剛講過，這對漁業、漁民的權益損害非常大，所以本席要求是不是有1/2可以是漁民代表？"],["管主任委員碧玲：1/2是漁民代表這個部分，我認為需要很多很審慎的討論……"],["許委員宇甄：好，請主委再審慎地考慮一下……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是我們目前是……"],["許委員宇甄：因為權益受害最大的是漁民，請主委再審慎考慮。另外，針對這個部分，這個轉變可能會導致漁民的收入減少，特別是對小規模跟傳統的漁業衝擊最大……"],["管主任委員碧玲：最後收入反而變成是增加的。"],["許委員宇甄：請問海委會要怎麼協助？還有農業部是不是可以提供什麼措施保障漁民？海洋保育法裡面並沒有提到任何補償措施……"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以補償……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們只有規範，沒有協助……"],["管主任委員碧玲：它沒有排除補償。"],["許委員宇甄：對漁民相當不利，海委會是不是可以提出更具體的措施保障漁民的權益？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個，審議會的成員一定有他們；第二個，我們有信賴保護，漁權會受到保障。另外，假使……"],["許委員宇甄：對，目前沒有更具體保障漁民的權益嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，像這兩個就是很重要的保障當中的兩項。另外一個是它沒有排除適用漁業法的補償……"],["許委員宇甄：請問有補償措施嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以適用漁業法部分的補償，他如果真的有影響的時候，依漁業法就是有補償。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，在海上捕魚要怎麼樣才能界定有沒有實質的影響？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果沒有辦法的話，漁業法也無法執行，那個是可以的。"],["許委員宇甄：最後一個問題再請教一下管主委，就是目前的草案規定，如果誤闖海洋庇護區的核心區要罰款50萬元，但是漁民怎麼會知道海洋庇護區的範圍？海上又沒有柵欄也沒有帷幕，核心區又在哪裡？所以如果停船捕魚，因為潮流的關係讓他不小心進入核心區，那要不要處罰？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個未來的機制一定要讓漁民知道什麼地方是海洋庇護區，重要的標示方法、在座標上標示方法……"],["許委員宇甄：我希望能夠訂定標準的作業流程，好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這有一定的SOP。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼狀況下可以處罰、什麼情況下可以不處罰，訂定一個SOP。"],["管主任委員碧玲：漁業署跟海保署將來會共同把這些事情做得很好。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那也請提供相關的資料跟作法給本席參考，謝謝管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝許委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","現在先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.384093750000002,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.687843750000003,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.722218750000003,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.41721875,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.23971875000001,"end":69.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.94409375000001,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.65221875,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.90409375,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.86346875000001,"end":106.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.17096875,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.73159375,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.18534375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":121.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.69096875000001,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.53784375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.60534375,"end":131.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.74784375000002,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.36784375000002,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.21471875,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.90971875,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.79096875000002,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.37221875,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.38034375,"end":172.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.30284375000002,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.47534375,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.51596875,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.50659375,"end":198.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.47221875000002,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.51846875,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":206.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.24784375000002,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.40784375,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.86284375000002,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.00159375,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.62596875000003,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.01971875,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.73034375,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.46596875,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.90784375000004,"end":275.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.58284375,"end":279.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.95409375,"end":276.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.21971875,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.24909375000004,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.61596875000004,"end":288.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.55971875,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.79096875,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.08096875,"end":313.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.53471875,"end":319.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.98096875000005,"end":336.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.02096875,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.94034375,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.23471875,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.70721875000004,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.28721875,"end":362.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.54846875000004,"end":363.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.40034375000005,"end":383.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.86721875,"end":375.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.36409375000005,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.81534375,"end":404.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.83534375000005,"end":389.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.06659375000004,"end":395.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.87534375,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.35596875000005,"end":405.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.92534375,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.70096875,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海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":66.685,"end":89.24,"text":"跟委員報告我想政治性的語言我如果多說的話又是風風雨雨請委員原諒我我不直接用政治性的語言來回答這個課題我只能夠說海巡署的同仁依法所作的執法每天24小時一年365天"},{"start":91.201,"end":104.465,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":121.069,"end":121.209,"text":"提供凍結書面報告案"},{"start":137.765,"end":160.414,"text":"各位委員報告因為一次的驅離遇到這樣的海象跟遇到調度上這樣的情境然後我們就說是沒收主權我認為是比較跳躍式的連結那我們再增加我們的人力的部分行政院給我們增加600多個元額"},{"start":161.715,"end":166.516,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":190.64,"end":195.522,"text":"所以去年3月我就請管主委盤點計劃提出核實我真的也很關心所以我就是競選一幫海巡找資源所以這個部分去年3月我就要求全面盤點4月要求盤點的結果要建案然後7月的時候就有個處刑那我想管主委既然已經有"},{"start":218.391,"end":218.831,"text":"海洋保育法"},{"start":234.761,"end":248.369,"text":"海洋保育的觀念日益受到重視我們也都非常支持海洋保育但是現行的海洋保育跟利用有《野生動物保育法》《國家公園法》《濕地保育法》《國土地保育法》"},{"start":249.85,"end":258.776,"text":"函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府"},{"start":267.883,"end":270.146,"text":"總共海域面積5400平方公里。 各部會所訂的海洋保育法規的實際執行情形成效如何?"},{"start":288.915,"end":296.179,"text":"各部會的法規名稱不一樣不是叫做海洋保育法有的是海洋保育法規他們目前實施的成效如何今年會有一個評鑑制度往前走"},{"start":305.563,"end":329.793,"text":"過去的話我們也曾經有過考核剛剛也有委員把110年跟111年的考核的結果呈現了一下我自己過去當委員的時候也曾經質疑過說為什麼成效不彰過去確實是這樣海保署經過一個平台一個保護區的治理平台之後進步很多"},{"start":331.514,"end":332.516,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":345.572,"end":360.696,"text":"管主委,2019年海洋基本法通過以後有提到兩年內要自定執法,為什麼拖到這個時候才送出來?因為沒有共識,所以溝通了非常久。"},{"start":363.817,"end":388.803,"text":"包括各用海單位利害關係的各方一定是各方有共識部會才會有共識那現在已經有共識了嗎已經有共識所以才會送出來今天漁業署署長也在我們是不是請署長也說明一下呢這個部分我想要了解就是說因為其實從2019的海洋基本法通過之後應該是2021應該是2021就要批出嘛今天已經2024的"},{"start":393.604,"end":410.141,"text":"所以說我在想啦為什麼在大選之前你們不提出然後現在大選過後就急忙的提出所以是不是有選票的考量各位委員報告齁在去年也就是上個會期的時候我們草案剛做好"},{"start":410.782,"end":421.534,"text":"可是最後一波漁業署還是建議我們說來跟漁業界再做溝通所以上個會期卡住是因為漁業署希望我們再跟漁業界溝通所以我們各區各區溝通"},{"start":426.079,"end":448.544,"text":"所以我想我們制定這個海洋保育法的牽涉很廣不管是從中央部會各縣市政府地方漁會還有漁民尤其是有加大淨限制的區域加重管制的強度一定會傷害到漁民的這個捕撈的一個權益所以說您目前只問一下您剛說有跟漁民溝通嗎有跟漁民溝通請問開了多少場座談會跟公聽會"},{"start":453.393,"end":478.931,"text":"我們在我自己有參加的部分我們就是跟區域會的幹部區域會總幹事的會議我自己參加的至少就有三場然後我們海保署的同仁也做了其他很多的溝通甚至於是一個區域會一個區域會的當面的去拜訪我們把所有的區域會都走過一圈跟主委講說"},{"start":480.692,"end":498.871,"text":"其實我到目前為止還是收到很多餘會的陳情表示我們的溝通還不是很完善所以我在這邊也要求海委會要分區辦理公聽會等會整好大家的意見之後我們再來逐條審查跟委員報告我剛剛有說明"},{"start":500.052,"end":512.457,"text":"平率最高的溝通不是這個時候這個時候如果不往前走你永遠沒辦法走到真正需要溝通的那個階段因為這個海保法通過之後最會影響到的就是漁民的權益那如果連漁民連漁會都沒有辦法得到你們的認同的話那這樣的海洋保育法通過之後那造成漁業的損失造成漁民損失誰來負責所以我想這個部分本期提出這樣的一個要求"},{"start":529.524,"end":556.733,"text":"那另外針對海洋保護法的條文也跟管主委請教幾個問題就是請問管主委對於海洋保護法要新設的海洋庇護區其中分為永續利用區緩衝區核心區請問海洋庇護區的範圍有多大要怎麼界定這個現在沒辦法回答我們取這個最出名的這個大保礁的這個保護區來看的話他只有他的庇護區只有5%而已很少"},{"start":557.273,"end":559.775,"text":"海洋保育的保護區的核心區是很曲折、很細長的,主委會針對會審慎的、循序漸進的處理嗎?"},{"start":582.668,"end":600.868,"text":"主委的意思是這樣嗎?那個是在未來畫社的時候絕對是那樣的一個過程。那另外本席也希望我們省議會的成員因為剛剛講過這對於漁業對於漁民的權益損害非常大所以本席在這邊要求是不是有二分之一可以是漁民代表?"},{"start":602.382,"end":620.586,"text":"二分之一是漁民代表這個部分我認為會需要很多很審慎的討論那請主委再審慎的考慮一下因為我覺得對於這個受害權益最大是漁民那請主委再審慎考慮那另外還有就是說針對這個部分的話這個轉變可能會導致漁民的收入減少特別是對於小規模跟傳統的漁業來說春季最大"},{"start":629.028,"end":644.721,"text":"所以請問海洋委員會要怎麼協助?還有農業部是不是可以提供什麼措施來保障漁民?還有因為這個海洋保育法裡面並沒有提到任何補償的措施所以我們說規範沒有協助所以說會對漁民相當不利所以海洋委員會是不是可以提出更具體的措施來保障漁民的權益?跟委員報告第一個就是審議會的成員一定是有他們"},{"start":654.609,"end":655.19,"text":"第2有信賴保護嗎?"},{"start":655.19,"end":656.491,"text":"漁權會受到保障嗎?目前沒有更具體的保障漁民的權益嗎?"},{"start":664.634,"end":685.702,"text":"有,像這兩個就是很重要的保障當中就是重要的保障當中的兩項嘛那另外一個是他沒有排除適用漁業法的補償是有漁業法部分的補償是可以適用的對,是,他如果真的有影響的時候那請問一下在海上捕魚要怎麼樣才能界定有沒有實質的影響"},{"start":689.643,"end":710.127,"text":"最後一個問題再請教一下管主委目前的草案規定如果誤闖海洋庇護區的核心區要罰款50萬元但是漁民怎麼會知道海洋庇護區的範圍海上又沒有柵欄也沒有帷幕核心區又在哪所以如果停船捕魚那因為潮流的關係讓他不小心進入核心區那要不要處罰"},{"start":712.08,"end":729.13,"text":"這個未來的機制會一定要讓漁民知道什麼地方是海洋的庇護區然後重要的標示的方法在坐標上面的標示的方法所以我希望能夠定住標準的作業流程好嗎"},{"start":730.011,"end":731.032,"text":"提供相關資料與作法給本席參考。"}]}},{"id":"149784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69032730f354ea551bd814015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0a3a616ef225dcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:46:11 - 10:57:59","影片長度":"00:11:48","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":708,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:57:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:46:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時46分）謝謝主席，還有在座各位大家好，本席有請管主委。"],["主席：我們請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：管主委，請問您就任海委會主委以來最念茲在茲的業務是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我關心的事情非常的多，海保法當然是我心頭非常重視的一塊，另外就是海巡同仁他們的執法環境，他們的裝備工具環境，還有他們的福利待遇環境，這三大環境也是我非常非常放在心上的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好、好，非常好。本席在想說，你的念茲在茲應該不會是宜居的辦公廳吧？您可能沒有看吼，我們海委會的解凍報告裡面寫說，海委會最念茲在茲的就是，我們都認為是海洋保育、海域執法，還有臺灣人民，但是如果念茲在茲的是打造辦公空間，這跟人民的落差會有很大的落差。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個前言後語我來瞭解一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那本席再就教，在我們的解凍報告裡面108頁有講，海委會規劃在今年的6月要舉辦海線安全國際會議，討論的議程很多，有區域安全趨勢、競爭局勢發展，以及打擊海上犯罪、海灘搜救合作等等。請問主委，這個海線安全的國際會議有沒有邀請中國大陸方面相關的專家學者，或者是海巡機關？有嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前是還沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼？關於我們臺灣海線安全，我想隨便路上問一個國人都可以知道，我們臺灣海線安全最重要的大概就是中國大陸跟菲律賓，如果中國大陸你沒有邀請，那你開這個海線會議還說是海線安全國際會議！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這個會我剛剛聽處長說，目前是沒有邀請陸方，但是我們在海廢治理的部分，我們有其他的方案，我們很希望兩岸之間來合作，那個方案有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你這個海線安全國際會議，對臺灣海線安全影響最深的你不邀請……"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實也很歡迎，我們也是持開放，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是很歡迎，因為你沒有邀請，所以你可不可以邀請？"],["管主任委員碧玲：菲律賓、日本有啦，至於說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可不可以邀請？但是中國大陸呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：中國大陸其實我認為邀請是可以的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你這個海線安全會議開辦的實質意義真的不大！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我來跟處長指示一下，來努力看看，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們這樣的一個解凍報告，我們怎麼可能同意通過！","再來，本席再請教，126到128頁，這個有引述海洋基本法第十條第一項規定，保障與傳承原住民傳統用海文化及權益，結果你的海保法草案變成尊重，我們對……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不止，我們有一條專文。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們對原住民族傳統是從保障與傳承變成尊重，這樣會不會太不尊重？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們有條文，我們有條文不是尊重，而是要遂行原住民基本法的原住民諮商同意喔，有、有、有，百分之百，那個諮商同意……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們在草案裡面我看到……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有、有、有，有一條。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們寫尊重，原本是要保障他們的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：應依原住民基本法之規定辦理，所以是應喔，是百分之百一定要原住民諮商同意，這個是我們第八條的規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你們在調的時候，你就直接還是保障與傳承，不要改成尊重嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，文字我們來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你尊重反而變成不尊重原住民。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是海域管理法啦，不是海保法，這不是講海保法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，在整個解凍報告裡面還有很多問題，因為時間的關係，我們這一次會議是三種合在一起，根本不夠問，所以本席不同意解凍，因為整個解凍報告的問題非常多。"],["管主任委員碧玲：50萬，這是海巡署的50萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，本席想就海洋保育法草案的部分就教管主委，整個海洋保育法是社會大眾的期待，在本席之前，所有委員也都非常的關切，海洋保育法我們希望可以事權統一，而且能夠把整個海洋的保育真的能夠整合起來，但是我們看到的海洋保育法卻是，你在屈就過去本來就不屬於海委會的，包含我們海上的，如果是觀光，你就推給觀光署，水下文化資產就推給文化部，然後另外有關重要濕地各方面就是推給內政部。所以我們整個海洋保育法變成是只是過去所有單位不要的，我們就撿出一塊，或者是它沒有規範的，我們只挑裡面部分撿出一塊叫做海洋庇護區，這個是非常不符合民眾的期待。因為整個海洋保育法，我們希望就是做到事權統一，但是我們的海委會變成沒事你可以召開所有的會議，有事推給各單位，小事推給各單位……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，委員，我們沒有推、沒有推。"],["徐委員欣瑩：大事往上到行政院，在你的草案裡面，整個精神就是如此。"],["管主任委員碧玲：可能委員誤解了，我們可能需要有更多的說明，很抱歉。我們有一個整合……"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛很多人也都說，你看你現在很多，海上觀光你還是歸觀光署嘛，對不對？其他都還是在各單位，所以整個海洋保育法，大家希望可以真正的做到我們海洋的保育……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是當我劃成庇護區的時候，觀光活動就是禁限制行為啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的庇護區只是其中一小塊啊，別人沒有管的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我就是禁限制行為啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你的海洋保育法不叫海洋，你叫做海洋一小塊保育法，你不是整個海洋的保育法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，您指的可能那60幾個海洋保護區……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們希望你承擔起來啊，我們是希望你承擔，一肩扛起。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有整合管理，我們把現有的保護區，有一個整合管理的機制出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是機制，但是整個海洋保育法你沒有辦法規範……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就會管。"],["徐委員欣瑩：事權有辦法統一在你這邊嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就在這個機制裡面，就在這個機制裡面，而且……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是在你海委會統一事權嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從今年就開始做評鑑制度了，就是現有的這60幾個保護區，今年我們就開始評鑑，未來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望不要讓社會大眾失望，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會的，我們會很努力，謝謝委員的督促。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席時間有限，最後，針對海委會的業務，本席也想請教，就是最近大陸公船侵門踏戶，最近一次距離我們海岸只有0.5浬，這一點您知道嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你知道嗎？我只問你「你知道嗎」！我沒有時間了，0.5浬是有多近，你知道嗎？不到1公里！只有900多公尺。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在有一些區域，它的禁止海域跟限制海域的線是重疊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你知道這樣子，金門的鄉親跟我們金門的守軍，他們的感受是什麼？您之前公開的跟我們的漁民、臺灣的漁民呼籲說，如果碰到大陸海警要登船臨檢，你請他們就駕駛他們的漁船不要接受，叫他們離開，本席想請問你，對於大陸海警執法的 SOP，你有掌握嗎？他們會不會開槍？會不會噴射水柱？會不會前往追緝？請回答這一題！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有假設他們會這樣做，我知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在問你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：就是目前為止，兩次登檢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知不知道大陸海警執法的 SOP？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前為止的這兩次登檢，是政治升高情勢時候的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那以後碰到怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：認知性的登檢，委員，就是在去年4月份利劍行動的前後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啊，所以你這樣呼籲漁民有沒有聽懂？他聽到你呼籲，他們如果就這樣，你有沒有瞭解大陸海警的SOP？執勤的SOP。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個也是我們處理的SOP，這次的海警，他沒有驚擾到，這一次……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不是說這一次，我是說你呼籲我們漁民遇到大陸的這種要登檢，你這個呼籲你要不要公開致歉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，兩岸的關係雖然緊張，但是我們知道有某種節制在裡面，我們遇到的這兩次登檢……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們的漁民儘管照你說的，都不會有危險？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們遇到的這兩次登檢，都是在政治升高情勢當中非常特殊性的行動之下的一環，所以當這種時候的登檢行為，我們海巡確實有個SOP，這個SOP，我們最優先就是希望…………"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在說的是，我們的漁民遇到大陸的怎麼辦？我擔心我們漁民的安全！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我跟委員報告，包括海巡06在去年的登檢，其實事先都有跟船長做某種程度的聯繫，我只能這樣講啦，我不願意把這些事情公開的來說，可是今天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以漁民就照你的呼籲，絕對不會有生命財產的安全就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，不是這樣說，而是我們必須去說明整個處理的SOP，我們就是很希望在這種時候，安全的範圍之內，我們能夠有一個空間讓我們的船能夠趕快的在兩船之間，我們會循一定的SOP來，這個SOP非常的完整，我們會請海巡……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你沒有回答本席，你瞭解大陸海警的SOP嗎？你瞭解嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會做很多的研判……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不瞭解！"],["管主任委員碧玲：當時的研判……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不瞭解你就隨便呼籲，你完全無視我們漁民的安全！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：漁民他是聽到你的呼籲，他如果有危險怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：當我們把中國假設成是一個會對你開槍的人的時候，那我們還允許他到船上來不是更危險嗎？所以我們不是這樣談問題，這樣談問題，不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有說假設他怎麼樣，所以我在問你，你瞭不瞭解大陸海警執法的SOP？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是在一個正確系絡之下談……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他的SOP是怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個問題不是這樣，認知作戰可能是其中最重要的一環。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不知道嘛，所以你顧左右而言他。"],["管主任委員碧玲：認知作戰可能是其中最重要的一環，這是我們的瞭解，我們接受各種指導，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是本席還是最後呼籲……"],["管主任委員碧玲：政治升高情勢之下的登檢，我們的SOP……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要瞭解，知己知彼，照顧我們的漁民，真的非常重要。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們非常的照顧，千里送藥，四重保障，海巡是風裡來浪裡去……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，要照顧我們的漁民，所以你不要隨便呼籲啊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：萬里搜尋，千里送藥，我們海巡就是這樣在保護漁民。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不夠瞭解，你沒有照顧我們漁民絕對不行。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡絕對不會不照顧漁民，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。請海委會會後提供一些資料跟我們徐委員報告一下。","下一位我們請許宇甄委員。跟各位報告一下，許宇甄委員質詢完畢，我們等一下休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.363468750000001,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.258468750000002,"end":31.199093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.92846875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.25721875,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.555343750000006,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.656593750000006,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.854093750000004,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.06909375,"end":54.351593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.351593750000006,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.313468750000006,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.62471875000001,"end":62.99159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.72409375000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.07784375,"end":87.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.90346875,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.50659375000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.04596875,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.86846875,"end":113.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.53221875000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.71159375,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.23409375,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.56721875,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.88784375,"end":149.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.61096875,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.66534375,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.65096875,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.48159375,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.32471875000002,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.98284375,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.72534375,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.04971875,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.51784375,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.17596875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.34471875,"end":180.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.33596875,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.44909375,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.68034375000002,"end":191.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.50659375,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.02534375000002,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.04096875000002,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":235.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.39909375000002,"end":240.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.25971875000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.15721875000003,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.03471875000002,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.44721875000002,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.71284375000002,"end":265.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.45909375,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.21409375,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.61034375,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.53409375,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.81221875,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.86284375,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.19846875,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.40034375000005,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.03659375,"end":369.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.05346875000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海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":179.382,"end":190.851,"text":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預"},{"start":206.729,"end":235.689,"text":"這個有引述海洋基本法第10條第一項規定保障與傳承原住民傳統用海的用海及權益那結果你海保法草案變成尊重我們對原住民族傳統是從保障與傳承變成尊重這樣會不會太不尊重我們有條文我們有條文不是尊重而是要遂行原住民基本法的原住民諮商同意喔有有有百分之百"},{"start":237.67,"end":256.517,"text":"在草案裡面寫尊重原本是要保障他們的因依原住民基本法規定辦理所以100%一定要原住民諮商同意這個是我們第8條你尊重反而變成不尊重原住民這是海域管理法不是海拔法"},{"start":265.9,"end":278.514,"text":"在整個的解凍報告裡面還有很多問題因為時間的關係我們這次會議三總合在一起根本不夠問所以本席不同意解凍因為整個的解凍報告問題非常多"},{"start":281.758,"end":310.731,"text":"好再來本席想就海洋保育法草案的部分就教管主委那整個海洋保育法是社會大眾的期待在我們之前在本席之前所有委員也都非常的關切海洋保育法我們希望可以事權統一而且能夠把整個海洋的保育真的能夠整合起來但是我們看到的海洋保育法是你在屈就過去本來就不屬"},{"start":311.731,"end":336.312,"text":"屬於海委會的那包含我們海上的不管是觀光你就推給觀光署水下文化資產就推給文化部然後另外有關這個重要濕地各方面就是推給內政部所以我們整個海洋保育法變成是只是過去所有單位不要的我們就減出一塊"},{"start":337.233,"end":339.015,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":355.993,"end":370.129,"text":"但是我們的海委會變成沒事你可以召開所有的會議有事推給各單位小事推給各單位大事往上到行政院你的草案裡面整個的精神就是如此"},{"start":371.03,"end":378.635,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":398.567,"end":407.519,"text":"海洋一小塊保育法,你不是整個的海洋保育法。但是我們是希望你承擔起來,我們有整合管理,我們把現有的保護區有一個整合管理的機制出來。"},{"start":417.071,"end":418.592,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":441.169,"end":452.654,"text":"針對海洋委員會的業務本席也想請教就是我們最近大陸公船親門踏戶最近一次距離我們海岸只有0.5海里這點您知道嗎?"},{"start":453.479,"end":457.041,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":473.663,"end":492.363,"text":"那您之前公開的跟我們的漁民臺灣的漁民這個呼籲說如果碰到大陸海警要登船臨檢你請他們就這個駕駛他們的漁船就就這個不要接受叫他們離開那請本希翔請問你你對於"},{"start":494.565,"end":507.035,"text":"大陸海警執法的SOP你有掌握嗎?他們會不會開槍?會不會噴射水柱?會不會前往追緝?我現在問你,你知不知道大陸海警執法的SOP目前為止的這兩次的凍結是政治升高情勢時候的認知性的凍結"},{"start":519.232,"end":542.479,"text":"委員,就是在去年4月份的立憲新政的前後。不是啊,所以你這樣呼籲漁民有沒有聽懂?他聽到你呼籲他們如果就這樣,你有沒有瞭解大陸海警的SOP?這個是我們處理的SOP,這一次的海警他沒有驚擾到。沒有沒有,我不是說這一次,我是說你呼籲我們漁民遇到大陸的這個要凍結。"},{"start":543.559,"end":545.343,"text":"兩岸的關係雖然緊張但是我們知道有某種節制在裡面"},{"start":555.325,"end":558.106,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":578.391,"end":588.336,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":599.182,"end":602.983,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":622.79,"end":624.933,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":642.814,"end":647.219,"text":"當我們把中國假設成是一個會對你開槍的人的時候那我們還允許他到船上來不是更危險嗎?所以我們不是這樣談問題我沒有說假設他怎麼樣所以我在問你你了不了解大陸海警執法的SOP"},{"start":666.238,"end":672.865,"text":"主席的SOP是什麼樣?認知作戰可能是其中最重要的一環。這是我們的了解。我們接受各種指導。但是本席還是最後呼籲,你要了解知己知彼"},{"start":684.377,"end":688.058,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"}]}},{"id":"149783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903c0a36423f95331fa14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6983c546b407cade85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:37:13 - 10:45:57","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":524,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:45:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:37:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":935,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時37分）主席、與會同仁，請海洋委員會主委管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：召委好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，今天我們所討論的海洋保育法草案，其實臺灣四面環海，臺灣海域有很多生態都是值得去保護，對我們海洋的變化及海洋保育的觀念，日益受到重視，目前法律單一或是多種目標的海洋保育對象，忽略整體海域環境的保護，因此本席也非常贊同對海洋的保護做出更積極的貢獻，尤其我們也要呼籲國際及永續發展，全球的生物多樣性公約，提升臺灣海域復育海洋生物多樣性，營造一個健康的生態，所牽動的還有環保及產業雙重的課題，制定推動的過程有哪一些需要跟社會溝通及行政協調，請主委來說明一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟召委報告，整個海洋保育法牽涉到最核心關鍵的當然是我們要劃設庇護區，要劃設庇護區的時候，就會影響到因為庇護區的目標是要保護，這個地方如果劃設庇護區之後，它的開發或是各種發展、產業的問題、漁業的問題，在這個區域裡面就會受到某種程度的影響，所以這個法可以說今天走出來，代表也是因為過去這段時間以來，各領域的人都一次又一次去開會所溝通的結果，包括學界、環保團體，另外就是漁業界及產業界，產業界有工程界、有風電能源產業。所以各界經過一次又一次的溝通以後，拿出來的這個版本，就用一個最務實、多贏或雙贏的機制來做海洋保護，就是審議會機制，這個審議會機制很重要的一個中間的關鍵，就是所有與利害關係的各方面都進來，大家都進來，我們好好談，我們知道要保護、很急，不保護不行，但是你要在如何保護的情形之下，我們有辦法產生生態保護的效果，還有辦法雙贏，不去影響漁業和其他現有的事項。所以讓大家都進來談，談到大家有共識的東西，才有辦法送出來。","所以這就是這部法律我所講的，有人說保守，我寧願說是務實，這是各方面真的都很用心想要保護這個法，讓它向前走，願意妥協的結果，譬如說學界跟環保團體他們妥協很多，譬如說企業界或者是說原住民，或是說風電產業，它們都有各式各樣的妥協在裡面，所以最後用這個機制出來，還增加信賴保護進來，像信賴保護要進來的時候，學界、環保團體也很有意見，但是我都跟署長及我們所有的團隊都真的是心肝要挖出來一樣地下去拜託，最後真的就是有辦法讓它可以形成大家的共識，現在就是學界也好，環保界也好，他們都願意說好，不然我們就先走出來再說，所以這就是整個溝通的過程，我來之前就已經溝通很多了，但是我來這一年的中間，最後把它變成這個面目，是經過這些溝通，困難的溝通，但是非常深入跟非常澈底的溝通之後，大家共同願意接受的一個草案，行政院才能送出來。"],["吳委員琪銘：感謝主委的用心，主委，為什麼要問海洋保育法要設立，一個就是海洋庇護區的範圍，所以希望你跟地方、業界及漁會，我們的宇甄他們漁會也都很有經驗……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，許委員很關心，非常非常關心。"],["吳委員琪銘：要和各方面大家溝通再來設立，因為我看小琉球那邊因為遊客跟漁民，如果劃分了，很多遊客會受限制，他們的權利，他們會覺得說在這裡潛水的權益會喪失，所以你還是要跟我們各方面大家來做溝通。"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來高密度的溝通，一定會在法律通過了，研究也做出來了，開始要去討論這些研究的材料，開始要去討論要不要劃、怎麼劃，那個時候就是最高密度的溝通了，那個時候會有很多的撞擊，會有很多很多的火花，然後才會知道最後開出來的花朵、結出來的果實是什麼狀態，所以我們現在這個法如果沒有通過，這條久長的路永遠無法開始，這個法通過了，還有很長的一段路要走，我們的研究船現在才招標出去而已，才開始要建造研究船而已，我們的研究如果不夠多的時候，你要怎麼說服這個地方要怎麼劃，所以科學的研究是很重要、很重要的基礎，所以過了之後，我們要做很多的準備，人的準備、組織的準備、研究能力的準備，還有執法的準備，做準備之後，還有研究，研究的結果出來之後，才有最需要溝通、發生最大溝通的撞擊的那個階段，那個階段離現在有可能好幾年喔！有可能2年，或者是二年多等等，所以我們如果不快點立法，這不知道還要拖幾年，美國現在拜登總統他也想要在他的任內去劃一個保護區，所以他現在有一個原住民的相關保護區，已經有雛形了，但他這個雛形，距離其公民審議完畢，花了10幾年的時間耶，10幾年才劃設一個保護區。所以這條路是一個很長遠的路，不早點走的話真的會來不及，我們的魚都抓不到了。"],["吳委員琪銘：大致上，我看早上我們所有的委員對於我們海洋保護法的推動，大家應該都會贊成啦，但是後面你在溝通方面，一定要更……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，永無止境的努力。"],["吳委員琪銘：要跟各單位，包括漁會、環保人士、產業人士，我們都要結合去溝通，因為臺灣的海洋資源是非常豐富的，尤其在我們的花蓮、臺東，以及我們的離島，這些海洋都值得我們去維護啊，這一點我們必須要共同努力，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：感謝吳琪銘召委。請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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管主委"},{"start":25.061,"end":26.662,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":42.33,"end":60.02,"text":"本席對我們的海洋的變化以及海洋的保育的觀念日益受到重視那目前法律單一或是多種的目標的海洋保育的對象也負累整體海域環境的保護因此本席也非常贊同海洋的保護做出更積極的貢獻"},{"start":61.801,"end":79.03,"text":"尤其我們也要呼籲國際以及永續的發展全球的生物多樣性的公約提升台灣海域的呼籲海洋的生物多樣性營造一個健康的生態那我們所牽動的還有環保以及產業雙重的課程制定了推動的過程有哪一些需要跟社會溝通以及行政的協調"},{"start":91.076,"end":95.301,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":108.635,"end":121.527,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元"},{"start":131.016,"end":136.018,"text":"各領域的人都一輩子去開會,來溝通結構,包括學界、環保團體、企業界、以及商業界,商業界、工廠界、風電、能源產業"},{"start":152.626,"end":169.431,"text":"所以各界經過一次又一次的溝通以後拿出來的這個版本都用這個最務實最要去多贏或雙贏的機制來做海洋的報告就是審議會的機制這個審議會的機制是很要緊的一個關鍵就是說我所有禮拜有關的各方面都進來了"},{"start":182.074,"end":182.514,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":204.205,"end":212.614,"text":"所以讓大家進來講講到大家有共識的東西才有辦法出去所以這就是一部我剛才說的有的人說補修我寧願說是物實"},{"start":219.462,"end":221.104,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":240.601,"end":252.864,"text":"或是說風電產業 現在都有各種各種的土壤在內所以最好用這個基礎出來 還增加一個信賴保護進來像這個信賴保護要進來的時候 學界、環保團統也很有意見但是我都跟書長、我們所有的團隊都 真的是心想要拗出來 一樣那一拜堂"},{"start":265.946,"end":266.906,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．請查照案。"},{"start":285.051,"end":291.674,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":311.164,"end":314.247,"text":"好,感謝,感謝處委員的用心,因為主委,因為為什麼我還沒說,我們這海洋保育法要設立一個,你說,在我們的海洋庇護區,它的範圍,所以說希望說你跟地方以及議會"},{"start":329.063,"end":330.164,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":347.975,"end":349.457,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案"},{"start":364.218,"end":371.161,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":392.308,"end":393.509,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":408.77,"end":423.734,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告．函．為113"},{"start":433.217,"end":438.461,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":455.716,"end":463.442,"text":"美國現在拜登總統他也想要在他的任內去開一個保護庫所以他現在有一個原住民的相關的保護庫已經有處刑了但是這個處刑到公民審議所10多年了10多年才開一個保護庫所以這條路是一條很長遠的路沒有以前走的,真的是未富"},{"start":481.476,"end":485.38,"text":"主委,因為我大致上我看早上我們的所有的委員對於我們的海洋保護法的推動應該大家都會贊成但是你後面都是溝通的方面是,永無止境的努力保安、漁會還有環保人士、產業人士我們都要結合去溝通"},{"start":505.979,"end":518.865,"text":"因為台灣的海洋資源是非常豐富尤其在我們的花蓮、台東以及我們離島這是我們海洋值得去維護這我們都共同努力謝謝,謝謝召委謝謝,我們感謝吳清明召委"}]}},{"id":"149782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903b9b7111ca3ef07f014015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6c4e7b6cfcd426f665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:27:24 - 10:37:05","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":581,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:37:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:27:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":877,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時27分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。本席在這裡要先跟你探討3月6日在苗栗外海發生的事情，你知不知道這個狀況？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有三艘大陸的船進來。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：剛才我們的分署長有做說明，這部分我請分署長再說明得更完整一點，好不好？因為他剛才可能說的比較簡單。"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["王分署長正信：委員好。藉由這個機會來說清楚，媒體在問這件事情的時候是問有沒有進入6浬，但其實這三艘船進入12浬的時候，我們就監控了。"],["王委員美惠：你們有監控？你們知道？"],["王分署長正信：從頭到尾都有監控。"],["王委員美惠：所以你們是從頭到尾都有監控、都知道，不是外面所說的你們都不知道喔？"],["王分署長正信：我們都知道。在6浬的時候有漁民報案，但其實我們早上7點……"],["王委員美惠：不過我要跟你請教一下，如果你們都知道，為什麼漁民會報案？你們不是比漁民更早知道這個狀況嗎？"],["王分署長正信：我們早上7點在12浬就已經監控了，漁民在6浬是下午2點40分報案。"],["王委員美惠：你們是沒有作為還是怎樣？為什麼漁民會……"],["王分署長正信：我們有作為，我們馬上派出100噸的要出海，但到高美外海的時候海象太差，10級風真的很危險，按照我們的標準要由我來同意，我看錄影真的海象很差，所以請他們先回來，等海象好一點再馬上趕過去。"],["王委員美惠：當然啦！我們弟兄的安全要顧一下。"],["王分署長正信：因為船隻有不同的款式，漁船跟我們巡防艇的構造不同，安全係數不一樣。"],["王委員美惠：是不是我們派太小艘？人家那麼大一艘！"],["王分署長正信：同時我們也有通報艦隊分署。"],["王委員美惠：我現在是問你，船馬上退回來是因為風浪很大、很危險，是我們派的太小艘，而他們太大艘了？還是因為我們的狀況有所不同？"],["王分署長正信：我們也有通知在西北水域的宜蘭艦趕過來，那個時候宜蘭艦有在趕，它立刻南下，隔天它有趕走一艘，所以這個案子從頭到尾都在我們的監控當中。"],["王委員美惠：本席所瞭解的是就算我們有掌握，但他們也不怕，繼續在附近航行……"],["王分署長正信：不是這樣、不是這樣。"],["王委員美惠：不然你知道這些船何時離開我們的界線嗎？"],["王分署長正信：這三艘船中，有兩艘在隔天早上11點的時候，從大潭外海往西北離開、脫索；另外一艘往北部繼續走的時候，在早上六點多被宜蘭艦驅離，結果是這樣。"],["王委員美惠：本席認為他們在挑釁我們有沒有辦法驅離他們，不然照理來說，前一天我們已經掌握了，他還在那裡看你們的狀況，如果你們不來驅離的話，他可能還會繼續，所以他在那裡看你們的狀況，直到隔天早上才離開。"],["王分署長正信：我跟委員報告，這三艘船經我們的雷達控制及專業研判，有兩艘是4.8浬的速度，確實是在拖，另外一艘以10浬的速度往北，這是在航行，應該是避風經過。"],["王委員美惠：你剛才說雷達都有控制，不是像外面所說你們的雷達都壞了嗎？"],["王分署長正信：完全都在控制當中。"],["王委員美惠：據本席所知，外面傳說你們的雷達壞了，所以你們都不瞭解，任由他們在那裡航行等等，從12浬到6浬，這個範圍有一點可怕耶！"],["王分署長正信：都在控制當中，我們海巡署在全臺灣有67座雷達，原則上12浬都在我們的控制中。"],["王委員美惠：我認為我們要保護這些漁民、船隻的安全，但也不能讓他們「侵門踏戶」，還把魚都抓光，等到我們的漁民發現利益受到損害的時候，你們才發現，這樣就太慢了。這幾天雲林艦、臺北艦交船，這對我們有相當大的助益，所以你們要好好做，才會有能力讓他們知道臺灣有辦法保護臺灣的漁民，如果他們要越界到臺灣抓魚的話，我們會處理，不是不會處理的。主委，你有什麼要補充？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，總體來說，我真的也不敢說謊說我們百分之百都有辦法驅離，我也不敢這樣說……"],["王委員美惠：所以我們有進步的空間嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：尤其是東北季風的風浪，你看東北季風來的時候，很多澎湖的船隻都進來避風，對方也是進來避風的，像這種越界進來的，我們有處理的SOP。這次在苗栗的事情，在臨時調度的時候偶爾會有這樣的案例出現是對的，但我們要更精進以避免、減少這種狀況。剛才說的數據是29艘，但是他們剛才查到今年有22艘船要交船，也就是我們造新船的速度很快，一直在造船，我們也爭取了很多人，我們的海巡增加六百多個人……"],["王委員美惠：還有我們的無人機都去支援。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果風大的話，無人機也沒辦法出去，所以我們種種都很努力，以今年來說，我昨天拿到的數字是前天的數據，那就是我們今年已經趕走349艘了，也就是大陸的船進來後我們已經趕走349艘。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我會跟你們討論這件事情，就是我覺得雖然他們有不好的地方，但是你們去驅離的時候看到天氣不好就撤退，我們也要顧慮對方的安全，這是人道啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是顧慮到安全，對方也確實有安全的問題。"],["王委員美惠：因為你我都一樣，我們也想要有好鄰居，但如果我們趕走他們，結果他們又軟土深掘，這樣就不值得被人尊重了，這是最重要的。主委，我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：多數我們趕，他們會走；少數真的有比較傷害我們的……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！因為傷害我們，我們還是要保護我們的人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的弟兄有3根手指頭斷掉的。"],["王委員美惠：我們弟兄的安全，我們也要照顧啦！因為發生之前那件事情的時候，我覺得大家都不願意看到發生這樣的事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，都很難過。"],["王委員美惠：我們跟他們無冤無仇，我們也不知道他們是什麼人，我們絕對不會說，說比較不禮貌一點，我們不會去害死人，事情發生就發生了，要怎樣把傷害降到最低，所以我們有進步的空間，本席在上個會期也曾經說過我們的族群問題要攤開，實施的問題及安全性都要兼顧，所以在這裡面你們也有改善很多。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["王委員美惠：不過，本席在這裡要提議，每一個人都有一支手機，我們可能要有app來處理、使用，所有過程可以公開及安全性，大家才會比較清楚，因為也不要說只有族群那些問題，如果有app，我們還可以做得更好，因為時間的問題，我們也沒辦法，會後再請……"],["管主任委員碧玲：另外私下再請委員指導。"],["王委員美惠：私下我們再來討論，因為很多我們要修法的時候，希望修法之後可以更好，本席所瞭解，5年才檢討一次，我會覺得有時候發生事情，我們也要及時去討論，不是硬要5年再討論，所以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，有，我們有……"],["王委員美惠：這要互相去溝通，修法要修完整一點，保障好一點，不要讓人感到怨嘆，以上。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，王美惠委員質詢。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝，感謝，請吳琪銘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.09409375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.476593750000003,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.915343750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.04096875,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.72846875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.89721875,"end":19.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.90971875,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.02346875,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.32721875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.54596875,"end":26.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.60909375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.07284375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.86159375,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.41784375,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.45159375,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.767843750000004,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.80159375,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.69596875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.02034375,"end":41.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.610968750000005,"end":43.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.43346875,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.45034375,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.922843750000006,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.28096875,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.399093750000006,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.59284375,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.03096875,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.385343750000004,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.29221875,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.67596875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.73909375,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.025968750000004,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.110343750000006,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.01284375,"end":68.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.18534375,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.32409375,"end":69.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.12909375000001,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.17971875,"end":74.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.44846875,"end":91.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.81409375000001,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.32846875,"end":97.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.90596875,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.10846875,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.49596875,"end":104.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.43659375,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.45659375000001,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.88221875,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.83971875,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.94909375,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.15096875,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.03659375000001,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.96471875,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.83346875,"end":139.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.23284375,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.97096875,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":158.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.34846875000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.26784375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.92971875,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.00909375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.01284375,"end":174.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.88971875000001,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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跟你們如果要來抓台灣過海的時候,這是我們的處理,不是不會處理的啦。"},{"start":326.989,"end":330.151,"text":"來 主委你有什麼要補充我們總體來說真的我也不敢說白白的說我們百分之一百都有辦法所以我們有進步的空間我也不敢這樣說有時候尤其是海洋還是東北地方來你看東北地方來的時候配合加債就進來我們這裡要票房對方也是進來票房的像這種就越界進來"},{"start":355.165,"end":359.408,"text":"政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":382.563,"end":383.563,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":408.455,"end":408.735,"text":"凍結書面報告案計2案。 凍結書面報告案"},{"start":415.68,"end":421.643,"text":"因為各位我會跟你們討論這件事我就是覺得雖然他們有不好的時候如果天氣不好像你們說要去處理的時候看到天氣不好我們撤退我們也要顧慮對我們的安全這是人道啦因為例外都一樣我們也要有好處比啦"},{"start":440.134,"end":440.615,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府函，請查照案。"},{"start":455.553,"end":456.693,"text":"請查照案。 請查照案。 請查照案。"},{"start":481.679,"end":483.64,"text":"函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":500.387,"end":504.571,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．"},{"start":522.932,"end":524.754,"text":"總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":537.912,"end":538.272,"text":"委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":560.6,"end":564.465,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"}]}},{"id":"149781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69036fecd1a9cba3a9ef14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6fbc2796317cda7cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:19:42 - 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":445,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:27:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:19:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請海保署署長。"],["主席：請海保署署長。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝署長，其實在今天海保法審查之前，我們就已經有跟海保署調過一些資料，我很肯定我們終於可以好好的審海保法了，因為這個法其實有非常多的團體都等待已久，我也肯定我們可以好好審議，我也希望在這個會期可以如期的通過，這是我們共同的目標。","首先，現在大家非常關心的就是，我們在做非常多離岸風電的案場，很多團體都說這個跟鯨豚保育有很直接的關係，因為在施作的過程當中產生的噪音會直接影響鯨豚保育，甚至鯨豚的數量也嚴重的受到影響。大家都知道，鯨豚是海洋生態的指標生物，如果鯨豚的數量減少，其實會影響整個海洋生態系統的完整，所以我也很希望我們在鯨豚的保育上可以如實的來執行，來確保整個海洋系統的健全，更不要進一步的影響我們的漁業生態。大家也知道如果海洋保育沒有做好，後面的漁業、漁產甚至漁獲都可能會受到影響，這跟大家餐桌上的食物都是有關係的。我必須要講一下，目前水下噪音的問題大家也都很關心，包括現在風場的探勘、施工還有工作船的來回航行的狀況，我有一份資料是現在的海豚協會針對鯨豚擱淺、救傷的統計資料，從2015年開始就有一些苗栗、彰化的風場因為開發商進行非常密集的探勘，鯨豚的擱淺數量已經翻倍了，是這樣嗎？"],["黃署長向文：跟委員報告，針對鯨豚擱淺，其實我們長期有監測，我們在看資料的時候，剛剛提到有些像露脊鼠海豚其實數量最高都是在金門跟連江等離島縣市，在臺灣西海岸的擱淺數量實際上最近幾年並沒有非常明顯增加的狀況。您剛剛提到有些翻倍，我們去看了一下數量，可能是從一隻變兩隻或兩隻變四隻。因為從大部分的擱淺鯨豚死亡時的狀況，不太能夠辨別牠的死因，所以基本上目前跟離岸風電應該還找不到直接的關係，不過數字我們會持續監測。"],["黃委員捷：當然，海下的噪音不管是直接或間接影響到鯨豚的保育，都值得我們關注，因為我也不希望我們現在這麼努力的在做離岸風電，結果大家發現這些成果必須要靠鯨豚的擱淺來交換，變成血色風電，這是大家最擔心的事情。","現在環境部有一個離岸風電環評初審作業要點，他們也有參考海保署的建議，其中有一個審查事項檢核表提到以鯨豚保育的水下噪音限值進行規範，剛剛署長也有講到露脊鼠海豚並沒有被列入水下噪音建議的指標生物中，只有用到中華白海豚的限值而已，我在這邊建議可不可以跟環境部建議，把露脊鼠海豚水下噪音的忍受值140分貝也列入？是不是也可以提出這樣的建議？"],["黃署長向文：謝謝委員的建議，實際上就是剛剛提到包括海保署在前幾年通過的鯨豚觀察員，就是希望在風電發展過程中必須要監測鯨豚，後來包括我們提出了離岸風電的生態調查指引和最近的水下噪音指引，就是希望減緩打樁可能造成的噪音影響到所有鯨豚。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["黃署長向文：像委員剛剛提到，其實不同鯨豚對音值的反應不太一樣，我們在最新的水下噪音指引裡面也列出了所有類別鯨豚的一些音值，我們也提供給環境部，希望在後面監測的時候是針對所有鯨豚，而不是單一鯨豚。"],["黃委員捷：好，我也希望把露脊鼠海豚放進去。","再來，因為現在我們對於露脊鼠海豚的棲地範圍沒有基本的調查，所以可不可以針對臺灣本島周邊的海域來做基本的棲地調查，之後在推動劃設海洋庇護區的時候有一個參考的指引呢？"],["黃署長向文：謝謝委員，剛剛有提到我們的鯨豚調查，露脊鼠海豚在離島比較多，所以我們最近幾年在金門、連江有新的計畫，包括在臺灣本島的部分，過去早期我們從東岸開始做，因為東岸的鯨豚比較多，但最近兩年我們開始延伸到北部、南部跟西海岸都有，就是希望可以完善所有鯨豚種類的調查。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。最後我有幾點建議，大家都覺得現在我們海洋保護區的生態監測跟執行管理還不夠透明，我相信資訊透明是一個基本功課，也希望我們接下來可以把這些資訊更公開。另外，海保法裡面提到海洋庇護區有核心區、緩衝區跟永續利用區，這個到底如何具體劃設以及它的標準，我相信不管是環團還是漁業團體，跟水上有關的使用者都非常關心，我希望接下來也要有一個很明確的指引，並且跟大家做溝通。最後一個建議是關於海上觀察員，其實過去也有一些人在說，例如「八尺門的辯護人」裡面有提到觀察員的安全到底要如何保障、如何客觀獨立執行職務，這部分我也希望接下來在執行的時候可以給予一定的基本保障，可以嗎？"],["黃署長向文：這邊很快回答委員的三項建議，第一項提到資料可能不是那麼公開透明，因為過去可能散在各個機關，所以我們這幾年有成立海洋保護區的特別網站，把各機關的相關報告都放在那個地方，讓民眾可以很快看到。後面關於觀察員的部分，我們會有相關的子法去規範他的資格跟安全措施。剛剛提到的第二點是針對一些相關產業，我們會透過審議會的方式，在審議會裡面比較周延地討論海洋庇護區的劃設準則跟方式。"],["黃委員捷：好，務必要確實執行，謝謝海保署，也希望這個會期我們一定要把海保法審過，好嗎？謝謝。"],["黃署長向文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","下一位請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.52034375,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.86596875,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.750968750000002,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.99909375,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.55909375,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.43596875,"end":148.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.44659375,"end":150.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.28596875000002,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.69159375,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.41284375,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.49596875000003,"end":315.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.08284375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":399.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.34409375,"end":421.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.71596875,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.65221875000003,"end":426.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.03471875,"end":436.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.00909375000003,"end":442.74659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.523,"end":0.964,"text":"海保署署長"},{"start":12.185,"end":37.683,"text":"原來有墊子可以用好謝謝署長因為其實在今天的這個海保法要審查之前我們就已經有跟海保署調過一些資料那我很肯定說我們終於可以來好好的審海保法了因為這個其實是有非常多的團體都等待已久那我也很肯定我們可以好好的審議那我也希望這個會期可以如期的通過這個是我們共同的目標"},{"start":38.704,"end":63.667,"text":"那首先我要講一下說因為其實現在大家非常關心就是我們在做非常多離岸封店的案場那在這些案場裡面呢其實有很多團體都說這個其實跟金屯保育會有很直接的關係因為其實在這些施作的過程當中其實它的噪音是會直接影響我們金屯的保育的那甚至是有金屯的數量也嚴重的受到影響"},{"start":64.508,"end":80.807,"text":"那因為其實大家都知道說其實金豚是海洋生態的指標的生物如果金豚的數量減少其實會非常影響整個海洋生態完整的系統那所以呢我也很希望說我們在金豚的保育上可以"},{"start":81.067,"end":81.447,"text":"提供凍結書面報告案記錄"},{"start":103.723,"end":121.034,"text":"我必須要講一下目前這個水下噪音的問題大家也都很關心包括現在風場的探勘施工還有工作船的來回航行的狀況那我這邊有一個資料是現在的海豚協會他們針對金豚的擱淺舊商的統計資料從2015開始就有一些苗栗彰化的風場因為現在開發商非常密集的探勘然後金豚的擱淺數量已經是翻倍了"},{"start":133.001,"end":154.461,"text":"是這樣子嗎?這邊跟委員報告就是說針對金豚擱淺其實我們長期有監測那我們在看資料的時候剛提到有些像鹿脊鼠海豚其實數量最高都是在金門跟連鄉等離島縣市那在台灣西海岸的擱淺數量實際上在這最近幾年並沒有非常明顯增加的狀況"},{"start":155.422,"end":174.574,"text":"那您剛提到有些翻倍我們去看一下數量可能是從一支變兩支或兩支變四支那實際上因為大部分的擱淺精純其實死亡的時候的狀況不太能夠辨別他的死因所以基本上我們目前在看跟離岸封建應該還找不到直接的關係或數字我們會持續監測"},{"start":175.635,"end":198.385,"text":"當然我們不希望說就是這個海下的噪音可能會間接不管直接或間接啦如果有影響到這個金屯的保育都是我們值得關注的因為我也不希望說我們現在這麼努力的在做離岸風電結果大家發現說如果這些成果必須要靠金屯的擱淺來交換的話變成血色風電這是大家最擔心的事情"},{"start":199.105,"end":201.846,"text":"海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":224.213,"end":252.912,"text":"它其實並沒有被放在這個水下噪音的建議的一個指標生物裡面因為它其實只有用到這個中華白海豚的就是限值而已那我這邊希望的建議是可不可以我們也跟環境部來建議把這個這個建議的噪音標準就是漏積屬海豚水下噪音的忍受值是140分貝我們也把它放進去是不是也可以提出這樣的建議呢"},{"start":256.054,"end":276.085,"text":"實際上就是剛提到包括海保署在前幾年通過的金屯觀察員就是希望風電發展過程中必須要監測金屯那後來包括我們提出離岸風電的生態調查指引還有最近的水下噪音指引就是希望說減緩這些可能打樁可能造成的噪音去影響到所有金屯"},{"start":276.465,"end":280.447,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":297.156,"end":315.138,"text":"好那再來是說因為現在我們對漏基礎海豚的棲地範圍其實是沒有基本的調查的所以我也希望說我們可不可以就是針對台灣本島周邊的海域來做基本的棲地調查然後之後再推動要劃設海洋庇護區的時候有一個參考的指引呢"},{"start":316.624,"end":336.014,"text":"謝謝委員。我們的鯨豚調查剛提到陸幾屬海豚在離島比較多,所以其實在金門、連江最近幾年我們有新的計畫,那包括在台灣本島的部分,過去早期我們從東岸開始做,因為東岸的鯨豚比較多,但最近兩年我們開始延伸到包括北部、南部跟西海岸都有,就是希望可以完善所有鯨豚種類的調查。"},{"start":337.495,"end":361.123,"text":"好 謝謝那最後我有幾點建議就是說大家會覺得說現在我們海洋保護區的生態監測跟執行管理還不夠透明這個資訊透明我相信是一個基本的功課也希望我們接下來可以把這些資訊都更公開另外就是這個海保法裡面提到的海洋庇護區有核心區緩衝區跟永續利用區因為這個到底如何劃設具體劃設以及它的標準我相信是"},{"start":363.724,"end":391.001,"text":"不管是環團還是漁業團體還有跟水上有關的使用者都會非常的關心這個我希望接下來也可以要有一個很明確的指引並且跟大家都做溝通那最後一個建議就是這個海上的觀察員因為其實大家會說過去也有一些例如說八池門的辯護人裡面有提到說這個觀察員的安全到底要如何保障如何客觀獨立的執行他的職務"},{"start":392.041,"end":421.301,"text":"這個部分我也希望我們接下來在執行的時候可以給予一定的基本的保障可以嗎?這邊很快回答委員三項建議第一項提到有關於資料可能不是那麼公開透明因為過去可能散在各個機關所以我們這幾年有成立海洋保護區的特別的網站把各機關的相關報告都放在那個地方讓民眾可以很快的看到那後面關於觀察員的部分我們會有相關的執法去規範他的資格跟相關的安全措施"},{"start":422.701,"end":427.003,"text":"提到第二點就是針對一些相關產業我們會透過審議會的方式在審議會裡面比較周圍的去討論關於海洋庇護區的畫設準則跟方式這個務必要確實執行謝謝海保署委希望說這個會期我們一定要把海保法審過好嗎謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035c1a34f806dc26d214015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a679b3b4799e39af955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:10:58 - 10:19:10","影片長度":"00:08:12","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":492,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:19:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:10:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":791,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時10分）謝謝主席，我們有請海委會主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。我今天要講的重點就是支持海保法，要綻放臺東藍。臺東其實是全臺灣……"],["管主任委員碧玲：美麗的海洋。"],["黃委員建賓：是全臺灣接觸海面積最多的縣市，因為我們的整個海岸線從南到北有169公里，還包括蘭嶼跟綠島兩個，在臺灣的縣市裡面，接觸海的面積加起來是最大的。我要講到海洋保護這件事情，主委知道去年12月的時候，臺東外海發生油污污染事件嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，綠島。"],["黃委員建賓：主委知道這件事情嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：綠島柚子湖這一件案子。"],["黃委員建賓：對，柚子湖這一件案子。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們處置了超過1個月，而且非常廣泛的用各種偵監系統還有海流的模擬，鎖定可能的船舶，但是因為它在污染的過程，我們衛星的掃描沒有掃到污染當下的影像，所以沒有辦法有足夠的證據連結。未來被我們鎖定的船舶只要再經過我國海域，我們一定全程注偵，會全程監控。另外，在這一次油污處理的過程之中，所有應該再增加的各種準備，經過這一次以後，未來有關於海洋污染防治所需資材的配置，我們也要重新補充。"],["黃委員建賓：對，我聽說整個搶救過程異常艱辛，因為整個綠島的地形很特別。"],["管主任委員碧玲：都用手工挖除。"],["黃委員建賓：它是礁岩，臺東縣環保局跟一些志工用手工一勺一勺在那個坑洞這樣挖。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，非常辛苦。"],["黃委員建賓：連油污棉都沒辦法使用。"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括我們海巡的弟兄都下去一起以手工除污，我真的要非常感謝這麼多志工一起愛護、守護我們的海洋，這件事情真的非常……而且那時候氣候也很冷。"],["黃委員建賓：現在還有一部分沒處理完，後續怎麼處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：最後有兩個地方，一方面海象不好的時候，依它的位置，如果下去處理就會有危險性，那些部分會比較拖時間。但是據我所知……"],["黃委員建賓：所以本席要問接下來後續怎麼處理，楠仔湖那個部分你們怎麼處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：剩下最後這幾個地方。"],["黃委員建賓：楠仔湖那一段。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，它主要就是受地形影響，我們儘快突破，好不好？我們答應委員儘快突破。真的是地形的影響，包括人員的安全也是我們必須顧慮的。"],["黃委員建賓：你知道臺東外海發生這件事情，油污可能不只在臺東縣。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不只。"],["黃委員建賓：它會隨著洋流飄到其他地方，甚至到宜蘭都有可能。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，東北海域也有。"],["黃委員建賓：都會中。"],["管主任委員碧玲：中部海域也有，整個其實有二十幾個點，全部的海域下來，我們實在非常痛恨這一次這樣的污染行為。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我們都希望能夠根絕這樣的事情發生。海保署一年編列的海洋油污處理預算大概是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大概是2億多，請署長來說明。"],["黃署長向文：基本上針對剛剛提到海污的應變資材、各項演練跟訓練總計大概2億元左右，包括補助地方政府跟海保署自辦。"],["黃委員建賓：對於臺東縣政府，你一年補助多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：各縣市政府的數字，我們會後給委員，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很鼓勵地方提案，所以地方的提案我們多數都予以支持。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，是這樣啦，我們臺灣是一個四面環海的海洋國家，平常沒事都沒事，一旦出事這些經費都不夠用，主委認同這一點，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從今年開始會有海污費的收入來挹注這一塊。"],["黃委員建賓：就像本席說的，我們要持續的綻放臺東藍，臺東藍是太平洋那個藍。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，今年是926萬。"],["黃委員建賓：169公里再加兩個離島，這樣夠嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：地方政府的提案我們多數都會支持。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委，這邊要請主委要多多支持地方，讓我們地方有足夠的資源去做海洋保育的工作。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["黃委員建賓：第二件事情就是我來自臺東，我是在海邊長大的小孩，我是在太平洋長大的小孩。"],["管主任委員碧玲：恭喜你。"],["黃委員建賓：大海其實就是我們日常的一部分，所以我支持海洋保育這件事情，我絕對支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：同時我也是阿美族的女婿，海洋對阿美族來講是一個神聖的地方，所以我們相信大家都支持海洋法的推動。不過我相信在海洋保育推動的同時，經濟也要兼顧。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["黃委員建賓：經濟跟環境不能是零和遊戲，一定要雙贏，我們過分的去保護環境，沒有經濟行為，就失去了人文，如果沒有保護環境，就會失去環境跟經濟，我想二者是要共贏的，所以我想海保法的推動要依據上述的精神來規劃、討論。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：跟所有海洋相關產業一起來討論，我們來創造雙贏。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們審議會就是這樣，謝謝委員的指導。我們審議會就是把所有用海利害關係單位都放進來，成為決策者，而不是列席或來表達意見而已，他們就是決策者。審議會這個機制就是所有用海的利害關係的各方都會在審議會裡面一起形成共識，才有可能劃設，這是我們的第一個機制。第二個機制是信賴保護機制，現在所得到的開發許可或漁業權，在保護區劃設之前核准的都會得到信賴保護。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，我相信大家都有一個共識，就是這片海是我們的家，我們沒有人會把家弄亂。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，是我們的母親。"],["黃委員建賓：所以我們希望它往好的地方來發展，在此也希望主委能夠就剛剛本席提到的臺東縣政府處理的經費多加挹注，讓我們共同來守護這片海洋。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們來跟地方政府聯絡，因為地方政府要執行這些預算，所以這個是由下而上。"],["黃委員建賓：中央執行也可以，我只是說要多編一些預算在這個地方。"],["管主任委員碧玲：用在臺東，我瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：因為它這個航線很特別啊，綠島跟蘭嶼外海就是國際商船的航線，發生漏油事件已經不是第一次了，所以這部分除了要預防以外，我想也要多編列相關預算來面對以後海洋污染的問題，儘早來處理，這樣好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會研議。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員的質詢。","下一位請高金素梅委員，高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅召委不在。","下一位請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.57471875,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.52284375,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.93596875,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.394718750000003,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.65596875,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.58409375,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.91721875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.144718750000003,"end":28.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.16159375,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.684718750000002,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.53159375,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.070968750000006,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.80846875,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.98909375,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.02284375,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.13221875,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.84096875,"end":54.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.85784375,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.195343750000006,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.83221875,"end":57.119093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.16971875,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.641593750000006,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.03971875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.10659375,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.58284375000001,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.31221875,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.47534375000001,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.80346875,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.83284375,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.62971875,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.39284375,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.61221875,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.92409375,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.38346875000002,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.31159375000001,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.41284375,"end":148.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.48034375,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.64909375000002,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.65721875,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.45846875,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.71971875,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.68096875,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.18284375000002,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.61284375000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.47721875000002,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.62909375,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.92346875,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.93534375000002,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.07846875,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.51721875,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.95159375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.34346875,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.58784375000002,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.88721875000002,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.74346875,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.76284375,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.82971875,"end":216.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.44971875000002,"end":209.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.68596875,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":216.954,"end":219.676,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度"},{"start":247.533,"end":265.272,"text":"這署長嗎?我們大概是2億多,我們請署長來說明。基本上針對剛提到海烏的應變資材各項演練跟訓練總計大概2億元左右,那包括補助地方政府跟海保署自辦。要補助地方政府,那臺灣縣政府你一年補助多少?"},{"start":269.516,"end":291.565,"text":"各縣市政府的數字目前我們會後給委員好不好我們很鼓勵地方提案所以地方的提案我們多數都予以支持所以是這樣子我們台灣台灣是一個四面環海的海洋國家不用寫沒事都沒事出事的時候這件事都沒救營主委認同這件對不對我們從今年開始會有海烏費的收入來挹注這一塊"},{"start":297.95,"end":316.132,"text":"就像本席說的我們要我們要持續的綻放臺東藍臺東藍是那個太平洋那個藍是926萬是926萬一百六十九公里再加兩個離島這可能是地方政府我們地方政府的提案我們多數都會支持"},{"start":317.593,"end":331.92,"text":"主委這邊要請主委要多多的支持地方讓我們地方有足夠的資源去做海洋保育的工作那第二件事情就是說主委我是來自台東我在海邊長大的小孩我在海邊長大的小孩恭喜"},{"start":334.401,"end":355.011,"text":"大海其實就是我們日常的一部分所以我支持海洋保育這件事情我同時也是阿美族的女婿海洋對阿美族來講是一個神聖的地方所以我們相信大家都支持海洋法的推動不過其實我相信在海洋保育推動的同時經濟其實它也是要去兼顧到的"},{"start":356.741,"end":362.926,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函"},{"start":378.917,"end":385.724,"text":"海洋法的推動要依據上述的精神來規劃來討論跟所有跟海洋相關的產業一起來討論我們來創造雙贏我們審議會就是這樣謝謝委員的指導那我們審議會就是把所有用海利害關係單位都放進來成為決策者而不是那個練習啦或者是來表達意見而已"},{"start":399.858,"end":402.879,"text":"函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央政府函．為113年度中央"},{"start":426.509,"end":446.823,"text":"現在所得到的開發的許可或者是漁業權將會在保護區劃設之前有核准的都會得到信賴保護。好,謝謝主委。我相信大家都會認,都有個共識就是海,這片海是我們的家。我們沒有人會把家弄亂。"},{"start":447.423,"end":449.944,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":470.075,"end":470.856,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"}]}},{"id":"149779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e29a1f01d50aa99914015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6931d1867babebde95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:00:04 - 10:10:31","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":627,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:10:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:00:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時）有請海委會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：來，主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。我們繼續追蹤一下金門撞船的事情，3月5日大陸的臺辦副主任說，顯然對於我們談判的結果不是特別滿意嘛！他說反正否認事實、謊話連篇，又指控我們說設置各種障礙，所以感覺不歡而散嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們其實沒有謊話。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，聽我講完嘛！好不好？然後好像我們的慰問金也被拒絕等等。我們的陸委會也有講，第一階段的協商告一段落，可能要等檢察官調查報告出爐之後才會進行下一階段的協商。","針對這件事情的後續處遇，本席有幾個問題要就教主委，第一個，我們要釐清一下這個談判的過程中，中國大陸這邊的立場、要求跟期待是可以說的事情嗎？就是可以透露嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們儘量的信守不予透露的承諾，那……"],["牛委員煦庭：儘量的信守不予透露的承諾？聽起來蠻可怕的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在談判的過程中……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以還是不可以？"],["管主任委員碧玲：在談判的過程之中，我們是絕對的都信守了，但是在上個禮拜的專案報告當中，委員也知道我們海巡的同仁在幾次詢答的過程中，不得已就說了一些部分，但是我們最主要的用心是我們很希望還是要保護所有人……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以答詢的時候不在此限喔？因為現在狀況是這樣，像昨天總質詢的時候，陳玉珍委員就有問，以他的瞭解，大陸方面沒有要求我們把人犯送到大陸去受審，陳建仁院長說你怎麼會知道這個理應不該被透露的事情？那我們就也很好奇，也在問啊！為什麼王定宇委員3月4日的時候知道大陸要求我們要送審，要嘛我們的政府機關就講這個是不能透露的事情，對不對？要嘛如果可以透露，你乾脆今天講一講好了，到底有沒有這件事情？要不要釐清一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想就我的瞭解，外界現在諸多的描述不盡精確……"],["牛委員煦庭：不盡精確？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不盡精確，對，我們很希望大家對於諸多的訊息，我們還是冷靜。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以海委會其實是基於談判要順利嘛！你的善的橋梁要要扎的穩，所以大家不應該多去臆測，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：過程之中這麼長的時間，為什麼我們就是忍著挨罵，不願意講案情？因為講了案情變成責任全部歸在對方，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，所以這就是本席要提醒你的，也是要嚴肅提醒政府單位……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們同仁就是談判的同仁，就是談判桌上的同仁……"],["牛委員煦庭：如果談判的過程是不應該透露的，因為我們都清楚，談判當然要保密嘛！這些內容當然不應該為外人所道，那是不是你政府在保密的部分要做得好一點？"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是也因為這樣，我們真的……"],["牛委員煦庭：不管是藍的或者是綠的，都不應該有什麼奇怪的知情洩漏，不應該有這個狀況嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這過程之中也有很多的洩漏……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我是提醒政府這部分要避免啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這過程之中也有很多的洩漏，是對我們以訛傳訛的資訊。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個本席願意理解啊！但我的意思是說既然消息有走漏，那你是不是內部有狀況？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望這件事情要降低它的政治性……"],["牛委員煦庭：要降低它的政治性嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：要降低它的對立性，要人道優先，這一直直是我的原則……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我第一個要提醒你的是，在保密的部分你可能要做一下瞭解跟調查，不要發生這樣的事情啦！好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們同仁絕對都不會……"],["牛委員煦庭：我願意尊重海委會的立場，也基於談判要順利，我們不會追問細節……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝、謝謝，這真的很重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我要提醒你，你內部的東西管控要做好，這第一個。第二個，那我至少問一下嘛！就是說調查報告出爐之後，可能會有第二輪談判，現在我這樣講對不對？還是說乾脆就不談了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前有做各種努力，其中的一種努力是希望人道優先，人道的課題也是在溝通的過程當中，說實在是最具有高度共識的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，今天時間有限。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望這個部分的話，我們越快找到解決的途徑越好，但是如果一定要把真相綁在一起就會拖，是變成這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據陸委會說現在是等到檢調有一個調查的結果出來，因為某一些層面的事實要做釐清嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是因為如果談的內容要全包就會那樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：那大概是什麼階段？比如說……你先聽我的問題嘛！所謂調查報告出爐是指起訴或不起訴？還是說判決還是什麼？有沒有一個明確的交代？就什麼時候會有下一輪的談判？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我說的就是其實是可以人道優先，我們抽出來先處理的，所以陸委會所說的是，目前對方的要求是希望我們一體解決。"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有明確的答案？"],["管主任委員碧玲：那就會變成是司法調查。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你希望趕快談的意思囉？人道優先的部分重新談判？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們希望人道優先。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望人道優先的部分重新談判，好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實海巡署一直在努力，我們請署長說明好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，我還有待會要問署長的話……"],["管主任委員碧玲：真的有在努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為談判就是主觀，沒有問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：談判……"],["牛委員煦庭：善的橋梁要繼續搭，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：善的橋梁我們一直在持續，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：你有多大的把握可以繼續維持？"],["管主任委員碧玲：由於它不是單方面的……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是單方面。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前一直在努力，對於努力的成果或者是努力的障礙，我們比較希望不要公開議論，或許我們請署長到委員的辦公室跟委員說明，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你會後要說明我接受，到時候請署長來詳細說明，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來我要問最近比較嚴重的，我為什麼那麼關心談判？萬一你們講的善的橋梁搭不起來的時候，這個問題持續升溫，其實對海巡弟兄來講是非常大的壓力。我舉幾個例子，像最近中國籍漁船直接闖入6海里，被認定是標準的領海範圍，那個壓力是非常大的，大家當然要依法驅離，對不對？不管是主委也好或是署長也好，應該對這個事情……這是大家的共識，我們也支持你要執法，對不對？三無漁船要執法，這進到6海里了我們當然要執法，可是我們看到的狀況是海巡署說因為風浪很大，對不對？人家漁船的噸位是300到500噸，結果我們那一天能夠出勤的巡防艇只有100噸，因為風浪大我們就沒辦法出勤。本席對這樣子的狀況非常擔心，人家現在已經不只是在金門用1萬噸的挖泥船直接侵門踏戶，對不對？按照你們剛剛的說法，這個理論上不被允許，就算過去有協議，但是挖泥船不算，對不對？這是一個，另外一個是人家直接在臺灣海峽的海域，也一樣侵門踏戶進到6海里範圍的時候，我們竟然派不出巡防艇，採取相應的阻止措施。海巡的執法作業流程到底該怎麼因應這樣的事情？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個涉及每一次的調度，這個部分我請中部分署的分署長回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：快一點，我們今天時間比較有限，好不好？節奏快一點。"],["王分署長正信：委員好。事實上這個案子從頭到尾都在我們雷達的監控當中，確實因為惡劣的海象，在隔天的時候，其中兩艘在大潭脫索離開，第三艘是由我們宜蘭艦執行驅離，事實是這樣子。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以有執行驅離？"],["王分署長正信：有執行。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼你們當初講的版本不一樣，說沒有辦法去驅離？這不是很奇怪嗎？你說監控什麼的……"],["王分署長正信：不是，隔天它往北航行到大潭外海……"],["牛委員煦庭：隔天是不是？好。"],["王分署長正信：是由桃園艦南下支援驅離一艘。"],["牛委員煦庭：南下驅離。"],["王分署長正信：其中兩艘脫索離開了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在很擔心這個狀況，因為民進黨政府主張要對等尊嚴，我不懷疑對等尊嚴的決心，但是我懷疑有沒有能力維持對等尊嚴，你的設備、你的條件有沒有辦法長時間強力執法？這個是大家會擔心的事，既然說得到就要做得到，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員的關心，我們在勤務調度上一定會做最適當的調……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在怕，因為看起來……"],["周副主任委員美伍：對於剛剛委員的擔心，我特別說明，剛剛分署長已經說明，因為他是中部地區業管的分署長，對當天的情形非常瞭解。這三艘進入6海里的漁船，我們從開始進入就掌握，我們會視當時海象的狀況跟前進兵力的部署適時調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就擔心部署跟硬體，萬一我們都只有100噸的巡防艇，沒有辦法時時驅離的時候……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們會持續……"],["牛委員煦庭：這一件事情在國際上的解釋……"],["周副主任委員美伍：瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是會認為我們沒有辦法或是我們沒有能力處理這一件事情？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：會影響整體的布局，對不對？這是危險的嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，但是後續造船的計畫都有持續加入我們的行列，所以這方面我們還會持續……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，另外我要提醒一下署長，3月4日，我們上一次質詢的時候就有要求，希望有越界處遇方式的書面資料，但截至目前為止，我是沒有收到的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們應該是……"],["牛委員煦庭：還沒有交出來，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：應該送過去了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就加碼，第一個是越界的處遇方式；第二個是相關硬體設施要怎麼補強、時程是什麼、你有多大的把握能夠阻止這樣的事情？一方面維持善的橋梁，二方面守住對等尊嚴，你打算怎麼處理這一件事情？社會大眾是關心的，所以請署長會後……既然都說要來說明，署長來說明就可以了，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，可以，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後一點點時間，拜託召委讓我收個尾。密錄器的部分我也是要求，我看到手持V8是很奇怪的，現在隨便也有三軸穩定，對不對？海上晃來晃去，但是現在的技術它夠小，原則上也有穩定器，我實在搞不清楚，為什麼一個採購可以等這麼久。"],["周副主任委員美伍：這有一個政府的採購規定，但是我跟委員報告，我們在9月底以前，會把所有的3,100具都採購到案，而且在9月底以前，我們現在全部都調撥，所以各一線單位現在只要出勤都有帶著密錄器，請委員放心。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，一樣，到時候一起報告，一起說明。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們會。"],["牛委員煦庭：密錄器的建置還有它的品質，不要最後品質不OK或什麼的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都有……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們不要再讓這個事情發生了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：好不好？那就麻煩會後詳細說明，可以嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要等太久，好不好？好，謝謝，辛苦。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","下一位是黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 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對不對"},{"start":30.714,"end":59.138,"text":"沒關係聽我講完嘛好不好然後好像我們的慰問金也被拒絕嘛等等那我們的陸委會也有講齁這個第一階段的協商告以段落齁這個可能要等檢察官調查報告出爐之後才會進行下一階段的協商那針對這件事情的後續處遇本席有幾個問題要就教這個主委喔這個第一個我們要釐清一下啦就是這個談判的過程中齁這個中國大陸這邊的立場要求跟期待是可以說的事情嗎"},{"start":60.237,"end":68.945,"text":"可以透露嗎?我們盡量信守不予透露的承諾盡量的信守不予透露的承諾聽起來蠻可怕的在談判的過程之中我們是絕對的都信守了但是在上個禮拜的專案報告當中委員也知道"},{"start":80.976,"end":96.161,"text":"我們海巡的同仁在幾次巡達的過程中不得已就說了一些部分但是我們最主要的用心是我們很希望還是要保護所以答詢的時候不再實現了因為現在狀況是這樣"},{"start":98.502,"end":119.274,"text":"像昨天總質詢的時候這個陳玉成委員就有問嘛就是說以他的了解這個大陸方面沒有要求我們把人犯送到大陸去受審那陳建然院長講說你怎麼會知道這個理應不該被透露的事情那我們就也很好奇也在問啊那為什麼王定宇委員3月4號的時候知道說大陸要求我們要送審"},{"start":120.874,"end":144.727,"text":"這個要嘛我們的政府機關就講這個是不能透露的事情對不對要嘛如果可以透露你乾脆今天講一講好了到底有沒有這件事情你要不要釐清一下我想就我的了解就是說外界現在的諸多的描述不盡精確不盡精確對那我們很希望就是說大家對於諸多的訊息我們還是冷靜"},{"start":148.229,"end":170.508,"text":"所以海洋委員其實是基於談判要順利嘛,你的善的橋樑要紮得穩對不對?所以是不應該,大家不應該多去臆測嘛對不對?過程之中這麼長的時間,為什麼我們就是忍著哀罵,不願意講案情,因為講了案情,變成責任全部歸咎在對方。所以這就是本期要提醒你的,這就是本期要提醒你的,也是要嚴肅提醒政府單位啦。"},{"start":171.108,"end":187.349,"text":"如果談判的過程是不應該透露的因為我們都清楚嘛談判當然要保密嘛這些內容當然不應該為外人所盜那是不是你政府在保密的部分要做得好一點不管是藍的或者是綠的都不應該有什麼奇怪的知情洩露不應該有這個狀況嘛"},{"start":189.21,"end":192.752,"text":"這過程之中有很多的洩露是對我們很疑惑的資訊。我們很希望這件事情要降低它的政治性、對立性、要人道優先、制裁者、制裁我們人的。"},{"start":216.464,"end":229.997,"text":"我願意尊重海洋會理長也基於談判要順利我們不會追問細節但我要提醒你你內部的東西管控要做好這第一個那第二個現在我至少問一下就是說調查報告出爐之後可能會有第二輪談判對不對現在我這樣講還是說乾脆就不談了"},{"start":233.26,"end":258.495,"text":"我們目前有做各種努力那其中的一種努力是希望人道優先那人道的課題也是在溝通的過程當中說實在是最具有高度共享的部分所以我們很希望這個部分的話我們會越快找到越快找到解決的途徑越好但是如果一定要把這些綁在一起就會拖"},{"start":259.415,"end":284.225,"text":"所謂等到現在是等到檢調有一個調查的結果出來因為某一些事實要做釐清嘛對不對但是因為如果談的內容要全包那大概是什麼階段比如說你先聽我的問題嘛調查報告所謂出爐是指說做起訴或不起訴還是說判決還是什麼有沒有一個明確的交代就什麼時候會有下一輪的談判我說的就是說其實是可以人道優先我們抽出來先處理的"},{"start":284.805,"end":310.849,"text":"所以陸委會所說的是指說以目前目前對方的要求希望我們就是一體解決所以有沒有明確的答案所以你希望趕快談的意思人道優先的部分重新談判希望人道優先的部分重新談判我們其實海巡署一直在努力我們請署長來說明好不好沒關係我還有待會要問署長的話因為談判你就是主觀嘛沒有問題嘛那善的橋樑要繼續搭對不對"},{"start":315.09,"end":338.996,"text":"山的橋樑我們一直在持續你有多大把握可以繼續維持跟委員報告由於他不是單方面不是單方面那我們目前一直在努力那努力的成果也或者是努力的障礙我們也比較希望說不要公開的來議論或許我們請署長到委員的辦公室來跟委員說明"},{"start":339.656,"end":356.548,"text":"好你會不會要說明我接受啦那我們就到時候請署長來做詳細說明好不好好那再來我要問最近比較嚴重因為我為什麼那麼關心談判就是因為萬一散的橋樑這是你們講的搭不起來的時候這問題持續升溫其實對海巡弟兄來講是有非常大的壓力我舉幾個例子啊這個"},{"start":357.829,"end":382.305,"text":"像最近的這個中國級漁船直接闖入6海里是被認定標準那個領海的範圍啊但壓力是非常大的那大家當然就是說當然要依法驅離嘛對不對我想不管是主委也要或署長也要應該對這是這這這大家要共識嘛對我也支持你要執法嘛對不對三無漁船要執法這進到6海里了我們當然要執法可是看到的狀況是海巡署說啊因為風浪很大"},{"start":382.765,"end":383.526,"text":"本席對這樣的狀況我是非常非常擔心的"},{"start":397.842,"end":422.699,"text":"人家現在已經不只是金門的挖泥船那個1萬噸的直接親門踏戶啦對不對因為按照你們剛剛的說法這個應該也是理論上不被允許的嘛就算過去有協議但挖泥船不算嘛對不對這一個那另外一個是人家直接在台灣海峽的海域也一樣親門踏戶的進到6海里的範圍的時候那我們竟然拍不出相應的這個阻止的措施這個海域我們的執法作業流程到底該怎麼應應這樣的事情"},{"start":423.88,"end":450.542,"text":"各位委員報告這個涉及每一次的調度那這個部分我請署長來回答或者是分署長來回答快點我們今天時間比較有限好不好節奏快點委員好很高興有這個時間事實上這個案子從頭到尾都在我們雷達的監控當中那確實因為惡劣的海象在隔天的時候其中兩艘在大潭脫鎖離開其第三艘是由我們宜蘭艦來執行棲離事實是這樣子以上"},{"start":453.484,"end":481.952,"text":"所以有執行驅離喔為什麼你們當初講的版本不一樣說沒有辦法去這不是很奇怪嗎隔天他往北航行到大唐外航的時候是由桃園艦攔下驅離的一艘其中兩艘脫手離開了我現在是很擔心這個狀況啦因為這個民進黨政府主張要對等尊嚴我不懷疑對等尊嚴的決心但是我懷疑對等尊嚴有沒有能力因為你的設備你的條件有沒有辦法"},{"start":483.893,"end":510.572,"text":"長時間的強力執法這個是大家會擔心的事嘛既然要說得到就要做得到好不好謝謝委員這樣的關心我想我們在勤務調度上面一定會做最適當的對我現在怕因為看起來因為剛剛委員的擔心我特別說明剛剛分署長已經因為他是業中部地區的業管的分署長他對當天的情形非常了解所以這三艘進入到六海裡的這個漁船我們是從開始進入就開始掌握"},{"start":511.112,"end":537.405,"text":"那我們會視當時的海上的狀況跟我們前進兵力的部署我現在就擔心部署跟硬體嘛因為萬一我們都只有百噸的續航體沒有辦法實施驅離的時候這件事情在國際上的解釋是不是會認為我們沒有辦法或是我們沒有能力去處理這件事情是不是會影響整體的這個布局對不對這是危險的那我們後續我們的造船的計畫都有在這邊持續在加入我們的行列"},{"start":537.945,"end":559.065,"text":"所以這方面我們還會持續如果我要提醒一下署長3月4號就是我們上一次質詢的時候我就有要求說越界的儲遇方式我希望有書面資料但截至目前為止我是沒有收到的我們應該是應該是還沒有交出來好不好應該應該先送回去我現在就加碼第一個是越界的儲遇方式第二個是相關你的硬體設施你要怎麼樣來做補強你的時程是什麼"},{"start":559.825,"end":578.19,"text":"有多大的把握能夠阻止這樣的事情一方面維持善的橋樑二方面守住對等注意你打算怎麼處理這件事情我想社會大眾是關心的所以請署長會後既然都說要來說明署長來說明就可以了那最後一點點時間拜託趙委員我再收個尾密錄器的部分我也是要求"},{"start":578.85,"end":596.297,"text":"我們看到手持V8是很奇怪的現在隨便也有三軸穩定對不對你海上晃來晃去但是現在的技術它夠小然後原則上也有穩定器我實在搞不清楚為什麼一個採購可以等這麼久呢所以我們這有一個政府的採購規定但是我跟委員報告我們在9月底以前"},{"start":597.157,"end":623.186,"text":"會把這個所有的3100句都採購到案而且在9月底以前我們現在全部都調播所以各一線單位現在只要出勤都有帶的密錄器這請委員放心一樣嘛到時候一起報告一起說明啦就是密錄器的這個建制還有它的品質啊有沒有擔心最後這個品質不OK或什麼的我們不要再讓這個事情發生了好不好那就麻煩會後詳細說明可以嗎這個不要再等太久好不好好謝謝辛苦好謝謝我們牛心亭"}]}},{"id":"149778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69033ac54acb069e3d2d14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d914f1b81d8e60275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:51:36 - 09:59:51","影片長度":"00:08:15","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":495,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:59:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:51:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時51分）麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，海洋基本法通過後，在2年內要制定海洋三法嘛，我們已經通過了海洋產業發展條例，今天也排審了海洋保育法，我想請問一下，海域管理法的草案現在推動的情形如何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，當然，我們內部初步的條文有試擬出來了，但是因為海域管理的路線有完全不一樣的選擇，所以事關這個路線我們要怎麼選擇，譬如說中央、地方要怎麼分權，然後我們是要全知全能地做海洋功能性的區劃，還是在這個用海計畫之下來做我們這個海域的規劃？這四層─中央或地方、全知全能或者是功能使用，在這個矩陣之下，我們最後要先做政策指導的意見整合，然後我們才能夠開始做跨部會的協商，所以目前我們還處在政策指導的協商之中，先去選定發展策略的階段，如果決定了就會很快。"],["張委員宏陸：好，反正有在做，有這個進度了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，有，我們也希望這個過程之中會有一些研討，讓社會來表達未來我們到底要走哪一條路來做這件事。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。另外，其實GoOcean這個app我覺得非常地不錯啦！主委，不過現在這個GoOcean還是需要免費註冊才能夠解鎖更多的功能，好像有點不便民，這個有沒有需要改一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，如果不註冊也可以看到資訊，註冊有助於服務更完善，也有助於統計，這個部分到目前為止，點選的也算滿踴躍，我們是不是讓院長來說明一下詳細的數字？"],["張委員宏陸：好。"],["陳院長建宏：到目前為止，GoOcean app的使用人次是83萬人次，我們相信到暑假，就是夏季會更多，會很快成長。"],["張委員宏陸：那是83萬人次，「人次」喔！不是「人」喔！"],["陳院長建宏：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我為什麼說不要註冊？很簡單，因為有的喜歡釣魚的人，他可能也用得到啊，對不對？他如果要去註冊，他會覺得很不方便，對不對？我覺得註冊，你當然可以蒐集到更多的資料，但如果是以商業的角度，你應該先開放大家免費註冊，大家用的習慣了，再慢慢去註冊，我的看法反而是不一樣耶！"],["陳院長建宏：對，跟委員報告，是免費的沒有問題啦！那……"],["張委員宏陸：本來就免費，我知道，我剛剛講是免費註冊，只是這樣你還一定要註冊。"],["陳院長建宏：不註冊的話看到的資訊就是比較簡單啦！我們可以來研議不用註冊的方式，我想這個沒有問題。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我覺得這是很好的一個app，應該讓大家多使用，你要他比較互動什麼的，可以廣大之後再去篩選，我是建議這樣啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們來鼓勵朝這個方向，好不好？"],["張委員宏陸：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：另外，其實這個GoOcean不錯，所以我可以想像出來臺灣很多人已經慢慢的會在海域或水域活動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不要害怕。"],["張委員宏陸：對，但很多保險公司對這個拒絕提供，那我們有沒有去跨部會協商一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們開兩次會，這個問題也有到我這裡來，尤其是譬如說以自由潛水來講，我們的協調只有在活動的時候，就那個活動的單次，保險公司願意，但是整體去開這樣的保單，目前我們幾經協調還是沒有辦法突破。最主要的原因是因為保險公司要精算出保單，它需要有足夠的資料庫做背景去算。目前累積的相關海事活動上面，譬如說以自由潛水來講的話，它累積的這些數值還不夠，所以他們就沒有願意要貿然很快的算出這個保單的制度，那我們很希望能夠趕快的突破，包括很多海事產業在發展的時候，也因為銀行對海事產業的生疏，所以它在銀行授信上面也都受到一些阻礙，沒辦法取得授信。","譬如說如果我要發展海事活動的服務業，很可能我租了一個碼頭以後，那個清淤就要花好幾億，要把它清出來，清淤的這些投資是那麼大的，但是沒有擔保品啊！因為碼頭是港公司的，沒有擔保品，所以他們完全沒辦法取得貸款。類似這些問題都陸陸續續有到海委會來，我們海資處也都很努力的在協助產業界去做跨部會或者是民間與政府之間的協調，能夠突破的也有一些，但是有關於海事產業的金融這一塊，確實目前比較多阻礙，我們會來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：對，主委，其實我知道這就是我們海洋基本法通過之後會慢慢面臨的這些問題，不管是產業、不管是人民，我今天質詢提出這個只有一個目的啦！我們看到問題了，這個問題不是馬上可以解決，但我們是要有準備去解決問題的決心，要慢慢來做啦！我的看法是這樣。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，跟委員報告，這是我們海資處的處長，我特別請他把我們民間在海洋產業發展的過程當中，遇到的重大困難是哪些產業的重大的困難，譬如說漁業跟風電業者彼此之間、漁業跟遊憩船舶彼此之間種種的，還有我剛剛所講的金融導入的這些部分，我們都有列出一些列管，要去推動產業協商的列管在上面。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！因為就像主委所說的，未來面臨的會很多，金融是一部分，剛剛主委講的漁權、漁業跟這些就是我們到時候要面對的問題，所以現在要有所準備，我的意思就是這樣。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，我們加油。"],["張委員宏陸：要請大家一起努力啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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其實齁 這個Go Ocean不錯 所以我可以想像出來臺灣很多人啊齁 已經慢慢的齁 會在海域啊或水域去活動啦齁我們不要害怕 對 但 很多保險公司啊 對這個啊齁 欸 他拒絕提供保 那我們有沒有去跨部會協商一下"},{"start":276.69,"end":290.465,"text":"我們開兩次會這個問題也有到我這裡來尤其是尤其是譬如說以潛水來講只有潛水"},{"start":292.967,"end":318.186,"text":"那我們的協調只有在說你活動的時候就那個活動的單次願意保險公司願意但是整體去開這樣的保單目前我們幾經協調還是沒有辦法突破那最主要的原因是因為保險公司他要精算出保單他需要有足夠的資料庫做背景去算"},{"start":319.006,"end":339.559,"text":"目前累積的相關的海事活動上面比如說以自由潛水來講的話它累積的這些數值還不夠所以他們就沒有願意貿然的要去很快的算出這個保單的制度來那我們很希望能夠趕快的突破"},{"start":340.399,"end":365.87,"text":"包括很多海事產業他在發展的時候他銀行受信也因為銀行對海事產業的申書所以他在銀行受信上面他也都受到一些阻礙沒辦法取得受信譬如說如果我要發展海事活動的服務業那很可能我租了一個碼頭以後那個清淤就要花好幾億"},{"start":366.826,"end":369.807,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":384.232,"end":412.755,"text":"我們海資處也都很努力的在協助產業界去做跨部會或者是民間與政府之間的協調那能夠突破的也有一些但是有關於海事產業的金融的這一塊確實目前比較多阻礙我們會來努力對 主委其實我知道這就是我們海洋基本法通過之後會慢慢的面臨的這些問題不管是產業不管是人民"},{"start":414.176,"end":430.478,"text":"我今天質詢我提出這個就是我只有一個目的啦我們看到了問題了但這個問題不是馬上可以解決但我們是要有準備去解決問題的決心要慢慢來做啦我的看法是這樣"},{"start":430.899,"end":453.472,"text":"跟委員報告我特別這是我們海資處的處長我特別請他把我們民間在海洋產業發展的過程當中遇到的重大的困難是哪些產業的重大的困難比如說漁業跟風電業者彼此之間漁業跟這個油氣船舶彼此之間那種種的還有我剛剛所講的這個金融導入的這些部分"},{"start":454.352,"end":474.177,"text":"那這些部分我們都有列出一些列管的要去推動協助這個產業協商的一個列管在上面對啦因為就像主委所說的未來面臨的會很多金融的是一部分剛剛主委講的"},{"start":476.618,"end":488.228,"text":"漁權、漁業跟這些就是我們到時候要面對的問題啦所以現在要有所準備啦我的意思就是這樣啦那就要請大家一起努力啦"}]}},{"id":"149777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690395b90b686e63e73114015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a67640df9354259b2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:41:40 - 09:51:16","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":576,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:51:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:41:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時41分）謝謝主席，有請海洋委員會管主委。"],["主席：好，邀請管主委。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：昨天總質詢的時候我有提過我們警察同仁很辛苦，所以同樣地，海巡弟兄為了守護我們國家的海域也很努力……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，海上也是警職……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以海巡的任務非常重要，而且很危險，從以前就很多次傳出為海巡同仁爭取調漲出勤加給的聲音，雖然我們知道去年危險加給已經調漲了15%，看起來很多，但是危險加給本身就不高，就像我們要去便利商店買一杯咖啡，所謂第二杯七折實際上平均起來只有八五折而已。再請教主委有沒有考慮增加出勤的加給給我們海巡兄弟？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，各種出勤的加給目前有過一些項目，譬如如果是海上的弟兄的話，他會有海勤的加給；如果是岸際的話，會有岸際相關各類的加給。這些加給的種類很多，我如果唸給委員聽的話，譬如我們連雷操手都有屬於雷操手特別的加給項目；如果是空勤的話，也有空勤的勤務加給；特種的勤務也有特種勤務的加給，以及其他的醫療加給等等。委員非常地關心我們去增加出勤加給的部分，我們非常感謝委員的關心，確實我們的同仁裡面也有三千餘位是警職，軍職、警職跟文職加起來有一萬多人。","至於我們未來有沒有新項目的出勤加給要來爭取，我們目前也有一些項目要來增加，譬如空中量能的部分，我們目前也在爭取無人機操作這個部分特別任務上面的加給。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們再有一個時間來跟委員辦公室做細節的報告，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：也聽取委員相關關心的項目。"],["麥委員玉珍：OK，謝謝主委。畢竟海巡同仁的任務都是滿危險的，所以都非常辛苦，將薪資待遇合理化，還有大家比較有感，不是危險加給就是1,800元，這樣子的話真的是沒有感……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的危險加給有分級。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以希望提升基層海巡同仁的整體士氣。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們會在這個部分為他們爭取福利。"],["麥委員玉珍：再來，臺灣海洋正在面臨魚類的減少、生物多樣性消失的危險，雖然海洋委員會已經成立5年，但是海洋環境資源保育等法律還是一樣分散在不同的主管機構中，尤其是海洋保護的力度仍然不夠。這個會期行政院難得很快就提出海洋保育法草案，這些我也看過了，請問主委幾個問題，目前臺灣已經設立了69個海洋保護區，但是海保署在111年做了一次全面地評估，結果還有11處「低度保護」，代表所劃設的海洋保護區還是沒有被有效的管理。當時行政院版本的海保法其中一個重點是要劃設海洋庇護區，請問主委，如果一直劃海洋庇護區，想到就劃，真的是對海洋有幫助嗎？這些區域劃設的依據及分類標準是什麼？是否足夠客觀及透明？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海洋庇護區是依據海保法未來我們準備依法去劃設的部分，這個部分的劃設主要在永續海洋，尤其是生物多樣性的保護和剛剛委員所說的，沒有錯，委員非常深入地去看到了，我們目前的各種保護區，這六十幾個保護區，分別由不同的中央與地方政府機關依據不同的法令去劃設，在這部海保法裡面，對於現有的保護區也有管理的機制。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，我知道，但是我們是希望……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是不一樣的系絡。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委，因為時間有限，我們知道臺灣四面都是海，想到就劃了，這樣對於漁民、靠海吃飯的，還有養殖的漁業、傳統的漁業都非常活躍，所以如果要劃海洋庇護區，這樣會引起漁民還有當地民眾的反彈。"],["管主任委員碧玲：漁民、漁業團體……"],["麥委員玉珍：海洋委員會和我們人民的溝通、協調的機制是什麼？海洋委員會如何維護當地的民眾還有漁民的權益，保護海洋環境的平衡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員的關心，有兩大部分，一個部分是現有的漁權，我們秉持信賴保護，所以會保護他。另外，審議會就是讓他們成為決策者。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝主委。因為時間有限，海洋保護我們已經拖了很多會期了，所以大家都期望我們的海保法可以趕快通過。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：也希望主委多多聽地方的意見，謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，我們跟各區漁會開過幾次的總幹事會議，都有一一去說明，將近百分之九十幾我們都說明到了，但是溝通是永無止境的，我們未來還是會持續地做更多的溝通。跟委員報告，審議會把漁業界還有漁業主管機關都納入作為未來審議會決策體系中的一環，所以他們本身就會是決策的一環，會參與決策、去決定要怎麼劃設、要不要劃設，這是對於權益最大的保障，所以……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，我們希望劃設，有區域，有保護，但是我們也要讓漁民、漁業，大家也可以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：優化產業要共融。"],["麥委員玉珍：什麼地方都劃了，這些要靠捕魚生活的人怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：本來就是為了漁業資源的永續而來的法律，當然要非常地保護漁業沒有錯。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們現在的保護法都沒有定一個期限，因為我看到的是那裡面沒有達成的期限，這樣會不會我們這部法通過了，因為沒有期限，好像是沒有立法一樣？再來就是我們的海委會資源不夠，要統計、管理那麼多的保護區，海洋委員會及國家海洋研究院有做了很多水質的測驗、海洋生態的調查，但是這個沒有公開，請問主委有什麼想法？是否同意讓我們的公民、大家可以在你劃保護區、庇護區的時候，讓大家可以去檢視、去審議？"],["管主任委員碧玲：會的，像現在所有監測的資料，屬於海保署所做的監測資料，在海保署的網頁上面都有公開。至於屬於國海院的部分，它整合了全國所有的海洋資料庫，有好幾十億筆資料在裡面，也都有公開，可以為大家所利用，我們甚至於還鼓勵大家，從這個資料庫裡面去用資料庫的資料來找問題，找到問題以後找解方，我們所謂的諾大師（NODASS）的競賽就是這樣在鼓勵運用這些資訊。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為看到那麼大的一個區域，只是在高雄，所以怎麼樣去公開透明地讓大家可以知道一個研究院那麼久，可以跟我們一起去研究這樣子的區層，所以希望能透明公開。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們有一個海洋資料庫。好的，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：感謝麥玉珍委員，請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.38096875,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.24096875,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.64721875,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.575343750000002,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.460968750000003,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.47221875,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.720968750000004,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.032843750000005,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":68.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.86409375000001,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.35409375,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.47784375,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.90659375,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.84659375,"end":154.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.10346875000002,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.28034375000001,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.72284375,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.46534375000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.60034375,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.24846875,"end":202.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.21034375000002,"end":212.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.72346875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.21909375,"end":228.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.26096875000002,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.96534375000002,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.14159375000003,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.22659375,"end":260.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.20534375,"end":275.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.80221875,"end":281.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.36659375,"end":293.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.92596875000004,"end":327.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.45784375,"end":369.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.02971875000003,"end":332.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.10534375000003,"end":335.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.92909375000005,"end":356.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.58096875,"end":378.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.66034375000004,"end":393.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.18659375000004,"end":381.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.66659375,"end":388.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.26534375,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.55971875,"end":397.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.39909375,"end":432.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.08159375,"end":448.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.28409375,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.35034375000004,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.64471875000004,"end":454.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.07471875000005,"end":449.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.96409375,"end":489.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.99659375000005,"end":510.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.31409375000004,"end":518.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.9584687500001,"end":552.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.45159375,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.8559687500001,"end":554.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.99471875,"end":573.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.22471875,"end":571.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.7390937499999,"end":572.8190937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.715,"end":2.797,"text":"海洋委員會管主委"},{"start":13.881,"end":37.101,"text":"謝謝主委昨天總質詢的時候我有提過說我們警察同仁很辛苦所以我們同樣的海巡地松也為了守護我們國家的海域也很努力所以海巡任務非常重要而且很危險從以前就有很多次為海巡同仁爭取條獎"},{"start":39.823,"end":67.732,"text":"出勤紮擠的聲音雖然我們知道去年危險紮擠已經調漲了15%看起來是很多但是危險紮擠本身就不高就像我們要去便利商店買一杯咖啡說第二杯7折實際上就是平均起來只有8、5折而已再請教主委有沒有考慮增加出勤的紮擠"},{"start":68.925,"end":76.508,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":92.635,"end":105.981,"text":"凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍"},{"start":121.107,"end":122.968,"text":"中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．"},{"start":137.415,"end":142.438,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":157.325,"end":158.686,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":174.455,"end":175.156,"text":"委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":190.565,"end":214.742,"text":"台灣海洋正在就是面臨一類的減少生物多樣性的消失的危險雖然是海洋委員會已經成立5年但是海洋環境資源保育等法律的還是一樣分散在不同的主管機構中尤其是海洋保護的力度仍然不夠"},{"start":216.804,"end":226.233,"text":"這個會期行政院難得很快就提出海洋保育法草案這些我也看過選舉主委幾個問題目前臺灣已經設立了69個海洋保護區但是"},{"start":237.199,"end":262.894,"text":"海保署在11年做了一次全面的評估結果還有11處就是低度保護所以代表所劃設的海洋保護區還是沒有被有效的管理所以當時我們的行政院版本的海保法其中一個重要就是說要劃設海洋庇護區"},{"start":264.795,"end":281.665,"text":"請問主委如果一直畫海洋庇護區想到舊畫真的是對海洋有幫助嗎這些的區域畫色依據及分類標準是什麼是否足夠客觀及透明"},{"start":282.661,"end":300.723,"text":"跟委員報告海洋庇護區是依據海保法未來我們準備依法去劃設的部分那這個部分的劃設主要在永續海洋尤其是生物多樣性的保護那和剛剛委員所說沒有錯"},{"start":301.664,"end":307.968,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計二．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬"},{"start":331.624,"end":332.505,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":355.365,"end":358.389,"text":"人民的溝通協調的機制會是什麼海洋委員會如何維護當地的民眾還有移民權益保護海洋環境的這樣子的平衡好謝謝兩大部分一個部分是現有的漁權我們信賴保護所以會保護他"},{"start":373.507,"end":376.369,"text":"審議會時間有限,海洋保護我們已經拖了很多會期了所以大家都期望說我們的海保法可以趕快通過也希望主委多多聽地方的意見我們跟各區漁會開過幾次的總幹事會議,意義都有去說明"},{"start":398.828,"end":423.163,"text":"將近百分之九十幾我們都說明到了但是溝通是永無止境的我們會未來還是持續的要做更多的溝通但是跟委員報告就是說省議會把漁業界還有漁業主管機關都納入作為未來省議會的決策體系中的一環所以他們本身就會是決策的一環"},{"start":425.285,"end":433.973,"text":"參與決策去決定要怎麼劃設要不要劃設這是對於權益最大的保障我們希望就是說劃設有機益有保護但是我們也要讓說移民移業大家也可以有對什麼地方都劃了大家這些要補儀生活的人怎麼辦"},{"start":446.684,"end":452.962,"text":"本來就是為了漁業資源的永續而來的法律當然要非常的保護漁業沒有錯"},{"start":455.094,"end":461.64,"text":"是,所以因為我們的現在的保護法所以我們都沒有說有一個期限因為我看到的就是在裡面沒有說達成一個期限這樣會不會說我們的這部法通過了好像是沒有立法一樣因為沒有期限再來就是我們的海委會就是"},{"start":480.896,"end":509.78,"text":"資源不夠要統計管理那麼多的保護區所以我們希望說還有我們的海洋委員會也有一個國家海洋會的研究院有做了很多就是水質的測驗海洋生態的調查但是這個沒有夠公開還有就是請主委有什麼想法是否同意讓我們的就是公民就大家來可以去"},{"start":510.588,"end":515.305,"text":"當你在發保護器的時候、庇護器的時候讓大家可以去"},{"start":515.939,"end":540.252,"text":"去檢視去審議會的像以現在所有的監測的資料屬於海保署所做的監測的資料在海保署的網頁上面都有公開那屬於國海院他整合了全國所有的海洋資料庫好幾十億筆資料在裡面也都是有公開可以為大家所利用我們甚至於還鼓勵大家從這個資料庫裡面去用資料庫的資料"},{"start":543.234,"end":543.954,"text":"海洋委員會函，請查照案。"},{"start":573.234,"end":573.268,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案"}]}},{"id":"149776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903a87780a875cf0a3a14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6923b70b41c55a0415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:01:34 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有三名以上"},{"start":246.414,"end":268.462,"text":"那個年齡6歲以下的子女或是說4名以上齁年齡12歲以下的子女而且其中兩名是年齡6歲以下或是累積點數滿16點那當然你們有一個累積點數表啦齁那可是齁就目前來講我們都是少子化齁然後呢如果是這個有3個小孩齁除非齁你一次三胞胎啦不然齁一次一胎齁跨了6年齁"},{"start":269.842,"end":285.848,"text":"這個總是就是不符合資格因為你可能到第三胎吼這個你的這個長這個這是老大吼有可能就是超過了啦吼然後部長你應該知道吼其實現在從2021年開始吼我們已經連續37個月吼生不如死你知道生不如死是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":287.891,"end":308.269,"text":"對,死亡的比出生多對,死亡的比出生多所以說我本席就是有接到一個案例就是說他們在這個申請的時候那其實是符合資格的那可是呢他因為這一個幫養這個就是在照顧小孩方面出了一些問題那所以他必須就是要換掉"},{"start":308.829,"end":332.515,"text":"但是當換掉的時候當初申請的時候是符合資格但是要換的時候老大已經超過6歲了就不符合資格了那其實我有請你們的這個勞動力發展所來做過這一個說明然後他們也有給予協助但是我個人是認為就是說我們對家庭幫傭的這一個制度在現在少子化情況之下"},{"start":333.415,"end":356.639,"text":"這其實是有點限制是有點嚴格啦吼剛剛三個條件吼我是想請這個勞動部吼回去檢討一下吼就是說你們資格條件能不能放寬因為現在是少子化的情況那第二個就是說吼這個有關家庭看護的這部分吼他其實就比幫庸都還要再寬鬆一點吼比如說那個家庭看護他有這個地補的制度他不用重新申請然後甚至在也縮短了這個"},{"start":357.227,"end":357.247,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":385.111,"end":412.66,"text":"包括這個我們來檢討啦但是因為這個部分其實也有不同的團體有不同我知道有不同的團體啦所以我們這部分會再來做一些因為條件的確是嚴格的一點我們現在少死化情況那麼嚴重我們要鼓勵多生鼓勵多生我們也做了很多的這一些托育政策那有關這個這個有關家庭包容這部分本期是認為是可以再放鬆一點不要給家庭造成太大的壓力好不好"},{"start":413.44,"end":413.861,"text":"李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"149775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903993c721a413e13d014b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a62357e572c87655e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:50:40 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11:01:28","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:01:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:50:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":666,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時50分）好，謝謝主席。我們請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你記不記得過去你曾經說過即使你摘了烏紗帽也要進行勞保年金改革？你有沒有說過這句話？"],["許部長銘春：這句話不是我說的，是在訪問的時候媒體問我說你這個會丟烏紗帽，是這樣子講的，而我是說該做的事情，我就要去做，我是這樣回答他啦！"],["王委員育敏：好，所以關於勞保負債13兆，即將在2028年破產，你到底想改還是不想改？有沒有改革的計畫？到目前為止本席看到我們這一些老年給付金額，過去10年，你看這個圖，我們從102年到111年暴增了2倍，所有精算報告都已經直指2028年其實年金就要破產，但是到目前為止，本席都沒有看到我們主責的勞動部年金改革計畫到底在哪裡，過去蔡總統也曾經說要軍公教勞一起改，結果軍公教年改已經完成了，但是有關於勞保年金的改革，到現在遲遲未上路、遲遲未啟動。本席想要就教部長，這個問題到底是出在哪裡？是你做為勞動部長，你不敢去提方案，不敢改？還是有更上層告訴你說千萬不要動，不要有任何的計畫？到底是哪一個？是你自己沒有改革計畫，還是上面有交代說我們只要改軍公教就好，勞保根本不用改？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，關於這個問題，我們一直很審慎地在做一些研議。"],["王委員育敏：有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。報告委員，主要幾個面向，委員應該清楚，因為整個財務要改……，其實勞保年改的目的是要解決財務的問題。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["許部長銘春：解決財務的問題這裡面就有幾個面向一定要去討論的，我這麼說，這個當然就是包括費率調整的部分、包括平均薪資的採計年間、包括年資給付率是不是要調整，還有就是撥補。不管怎麼樣，這個撥補是一定要的，因為所有面向它都是連動的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是撥補可以解決整個勞保年金要破產的問題嗎？"],["許部長銘春：撥補沒有辦法完全解決，撥補是……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！而且現在撥補是幾百億欸，又不是1、2千億。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，今年是到1,200億，再加特別預算一共是1,300。我跟委員報告，這個撥補並不能完全解決問題，但是其實對我們基金財務的穩定是有幫助。"],["王委員育敏：那你這是短期的救急啊！但是就廣大1,000萬勞工來講，短期的救急方案是解決之道嗎？蔡政府執政已經8年了，還有多少個勞工的8年可以拖延或者是等待？如果大家面對問題就只是這樣子龜縮起來，然後不敢提任何方案，我覺得這不是一個負責任的執政黨該有的作為吧！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個問題當然一定要去面對處理。"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候要面對？什麼時候要提方案？我是幫廣大的勞工，因為週遭都有勞工朋友說媒體都這樣子在報，就是說2028年要破產，這些年輕的勞工就很擔心啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我必須還是要讓委員知道，所謂的破產是基金用完。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["許部長銘春：這個部分其實是整個財務可能會面臨用罄的問題，但是對於勞工的權益，因為這是政府辦的保險，政府一定會負給付責任。我很怕有時候一講破產這句話，勞工又不瞭解，會以為到時候是不是沒有錢可以領了，而造成恐慌。"],["王委員育敏：是啦，但是收支就是不平衡，現在負債已經13兆了。"],["許部長銘春：委員，我必須這麼說，我還是要利用這個機會一定要跟勞工朋友講，這個基金用盡並不代表你就領不到錢，因為這是政府辦的保險，政府一定會負給付責任。所以我說……"],["王委員育敏：但是一個保險現在負債這麼高，勞工擔心也是合理啊！"],["許部長銘春：勞工當然會擔心，他們希望我們財務解決，讓它能夠穩定，讓這個能夠永續，這個是政府……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！但是因為你沒有解決方案啊！"],["許部長銘春：我跟委員報告，我們方案……"],["王委員育敏：就沒有方案啊！"],["許部長銘春：方案還在擬具當中，報告委員……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你已經做幾年了？7年了吧？"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦！6年多。"],["王委員育敏：6年多？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["王委員育敏：6年多都還在研議？"],["許部長銘春：但是委員我跟你說，我們現在是這樣，至少讓現在的基金是穩定的，然後我們會在這樣穩定的財務基礎上，勞資團體包括各政黨，大家面對這個問題一起……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你現在根本沒有提出任何關於如何解決勞保年金破產的問題，沒有任何方案欸！現在你們自己去官網看，你們的年金改革一直停滯在意見蒐集的階段。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，目前沒有方案就是因為還沒有一定的共識啦！"],["王委員育敏：你根本會也沒有開啊！怎麼會有共識？你們根本不敢踏出那一步，因為只要一開始行動，你們就怕被檢討。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，那個不是我參與的，但是上一次年金改革委員會其實有討論到勞保的問題。"],["王委員育敏：現在停滯啦！那是多久以前的事了？"],["許部長銘春：大概是幾個面向大家都知道啦，只是說這個面向到底要怎麼去做處理。"],["王委員育敏：所以現在到底是你不能改，還是不敢改？還是上面有交代說先不要動？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，不是，都不是。我現在還是要持續，我的意思是說還是要勞資團體和我們有相當的溝通啦！"],["王委員育敏：部長，本席看到就是沒有持續。好啦！這個問題我就是要讓部長知道這是重中之重，做為執政黨哪有那麼好當，該扛的就是要扛，該解決的、要面對的就是要面對嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員育敏：但是你們這樣子一直拖延，一拖再拖，其實很多勞工心裡的那個擔憂是真的，因為這樣子沒有根本解決問題，這是第一個！第二個我要問你，臺印MOU你們什麼時候會送行政院？送了沒？"],["許部長銘春：還沒，報告委員，因為我們2月26日接到，我們就是按照條約締結法的規定，30天內，就是我們在3月26日之前會送進去，因為現在他們在簽辦當中。"],["王委員育敏：326會送到行政院？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["王委員育敏：那什麼時候會送立法院？4月初？"],["許部長銘春：就是行政院備查之後，我們就會送立法院這裡。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以大概是4月初會送進來立法院嘛！"],["許部長銘春：可能，應該是……"],["王委員育敏：你們沒有時間表嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，因為要等行政院備查，他回文給我們說備查，我們就會送立法院，應該4月我看差不多了，可能啦！"],["王委員育敏：好。本席上個禮拜有接見很多移工團體，他們很關心這件事情，第一個，他們有反映到有關於臺印要簽MOU這件事情，他們希望要能達到G to G，就是政府對政府，而且希望這個是唯一方案，因為他們已經看到現行直聘中心相關制度還有很多缺失，你們也沒有改，但是他們認為臺印的部分，部長，你也有說會是從小規模開始，既然是小規模就可以用一個新的作法來做這件事情。部長，你是不是可以承諾這些勞工團體會全力研議G to G的方案？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["王委員育敏：好，你答應了喔！另外一個就是這些勞工團體說最近我們跟印尼還要再次簽MOU，你知道吧？"],["許部長銘春：應該是漁業署的境外遠洋漁工。"],["王委員育敏：對，是關於遠洋漁工，連這樣子印尼官方還邀臺灣的移工團體透過視訊，在簽MOU之前要瞭解這些團體的想法，我覺得印尼這樣的作法非常進步，連我們臺灣移工團體的意見都充分尊重，然後再納入他的意見，再來簽MOU。但是反觀我們的作法，我們是簽了MOU之後，事後才要開相關的會議，再來蒐集意見。這些移工團體告訴我說你們之前怎麼都沒有邀請他們？而他們是最關心這些外籍移工問題的人，為什麼你不邀他們呢？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，跟各位報告，其實我們歷來，包括之前5個來源國，我記得到6個，還有馬來西亞。過去我們都是……"],["王委員育敏：都沒有徵詢團體的意見。"],["許部長銘春：都沒有。"],["王委員育敏：部長，那你要改變作法啊！你可以改變一個好的作法，你要比前面更進步啊！那我問你，你將來要開的這些會議，上次本席有問過，你是不是可以承諾讓這些比較有代表性的移工團體有機會進到你的會議小組裡面？我覺得他們是真正關心移工相關權益的一群人，不要把他們排除在外，讓他們的意見納進來，才可以讓臺印雙方未來MOU的內容更完備，或是未來的制度設計更兼顧到這些移工的權益，是不是可以承諾邀這些代表性的移工團體進來你的委員會？"],["許部長銘春：這個可以。"],["王委員育敏：可以？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望今天部長的承諾要做到，擴大讓這些公民團體來參與只有好處，沒有壞處，因為我們可以把各式各樣的情況設想得最周到，然後讓這些外籍移工來到臺灣之後，不要被剝削，而是他的權益都可以得到最周延的保障，達到雙贏的目標，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.12784375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.278468750000002,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.375343750000003,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.85096875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.449718750000002,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.035968750000002,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.984718750000003,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.50346875,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.38909375,"end":30.878468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":59.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.20721875,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.92721875000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.36784375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.67284375000001,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.20409375000001,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.08909375,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.02971875,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.19784375,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.03721875000001,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.41221875000001,"end":157.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.87159375000002,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.89659375000002,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.34721875,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.01346875000002,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.37596875,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.62034375000002,"end":173.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.28534375,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.75346875000002,"end":189.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.55846875,"end":202.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.84096875,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.95909375000002,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.89846875,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.39596875,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.13784375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.02721875,"end":216.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.11096875,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.80221875,"end":225.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.99596875,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.66659375,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":236.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.03221875000003,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.51096875000002,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.52659375,"end":280.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.76659375,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.86534375,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.809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有好處沒有壞處因為我們可以把各式各樣的情況設想得最周到然後讓這些外籍移工來到台灣之後不要有被剝削而是他的權益都可以得到最周延的保障達到雙贏的目標好不好好謝謝部長"},{"start":644.17,"end":647.278,"text":"謝謝王委員接下來請李坤成委員"}]}},{"id":"149774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903d2cfa7ae0b75f35396e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a6a79a67e68724f7055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:56:04 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10:57:14","影片長度":"00:14:11","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":851,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:57:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:43:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時43分）主席、秘書長、還有考試院的部長們和官員們，大家好，我是翁曉玲，現在有請秘書長。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，秘書長，我剛剛其實也聆聽了前面幾位委員們的垂詢，就是特別提到現在我們公務人員的報考率下降，那離職率又增加，這其實也反映出我們現在政府在招聘公務員的時候面臨到很大的問題，留不住人才。在我在清華大學教書這些年，其實我常常在課堂上面問同學們未來有沒有志願要去報考公務員，但是很遺憾的，可能因為清華大學都是以理工科系的學生居多，會想要考公務員的學生占非常非常少數，大概全班不到5%，在一個60個學生的班級，頂多只有兩、三位同學想要考公務員，我覺得這對我們國家公務人員的進用其實是一個很嚴重的問題。我想我們希望能夠招聘到優秀的公務員，但是不給足夠的誘因其實是找不到好人才的，剛剛秘書長也有說，其實這跟要用考試來錄取和考試的類科有關係。可是我更認為，也許這是因為現在政府提供給公務員的待遇不是很理想，跟一般企業存在很大的落差這方面有關。在這裡我想就教，不知道考試院有沒有去做過分析，目前我國的公務人員與民間企業的薪資待遇相比，中間大概有多大的差距？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，可能在特定行業的部分我們應該比較會去關心，尤其是我們招募不足額的這些科目。"],["翁委員曉玲：譬如什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：譬如資安和資訊類科、建築師跟工程、公職獸醫，就是類似這樣的領域，它的確很明顯的跟市場的待遇出現一個比較大的落差，所以會變成比較少人來考，錄取會不足額，考上的人不一定會久待，也很容易被市場再吸回去，因為在公部門的確是責任重、壓力大、限制也多。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，瞭解。當然我很希望考試院這邊可以去做一個通盤的研析，包含不同職系的公務人員，跟一般民間企業的薪資待遇相比較，這樣我們才能夠真正去檢討到底我們現在公務人員的待遇是跟民間企業差多少，我們也不要說要趕上，但是我們一定要相當程度的縮短中間的差距，這樣要吸引優秀人才來當公務人員才比較有誘因，這是一個部分，也希望考試院能夠在近期儘量趕快去做相關的study。還有，我有看到你們最近也想要修公務人員俸給法，其中有哪一個條文是可以達到激勵公務人員的士氣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在研議中，這個我請周部長來說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，麻煩周部長。"],["周部長志宏：我們這一次調整俸給法當然主要會涉及到整個俸表結構的調整，我們希望讓它更合理，然後再更有規律性，當然這會涉及到俸給的提高還有年功俸俸給的增加。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["周部長志宏：目前這個部分當然是屬於法制層面，實際上，俸點折算俸額跟加給給與依照加給給與表都是人總在負責，因為行政院負責國家財政，所以這邊大部分都是屬於人總在決定實際上公務人員的待遇。"],["翁委員曉玲：瞭解，我看在相關的辦法裡面有規定，就是依照憲法的規定，其實級俸是屬於考試院的職權，那麼像年功俸、本俸等等這些俸點折算的俸額是由行政院會商考試院來共同定之，所以就這個部分希望考試院可以更積極，而不是就是等待人事行政總處主動提出有關於俸點折算俸額調整的部分。"],["周部長志宏：因為國家的財政、預算都是在行政院那邊，所以通常這個是由行政院那邊主導，雖然有會商我們，但是基本上我們都是只能夠尊重，因為我們並沒有預算方面的權力。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想請教一下，最近一次俸點折算俸額的修正是在什麼時候？"],["周部長志宏：俸點折算俸額會隨著待遇調整，像今年現職公務人員調升4%，當然那個就會做調整。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK，所以也就是說近30年來其實俸點折算俸額調整的次數很少，然後調整幅度也不高，我剛剛聽到羅委員在他的質詢裡面也有提到。其實我認為現在要比較積極的、很快速的調整公務人員的待遇，大概就是可以從調整俸點折算俸額的部分。"],["周部長志宏：對，折算率可以調整。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，各位可以看一下你們現在這個俸點折算數額，這是最新一次的調整，就是最近一次在1月1號調整的。"],["周部長志宏：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實看起來，我們以九職等或是五職等的高考來講，現在折算數額只有74點多嗎？還是更低一點？"],["周部長志宏：如果他的俸點是在221點到790點之間，都是這樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以大部分的公務員可能都是在這個74.3的部分，如果你們調高到80或是調到85，那我覺得公務人員就很有感了，我相信也可以吸引更多的考生來報考，這樣就代表整個公務員的薪資結構是往上的，可能還不需要修法，有關於折算俸點的這個部分應該是跟考試院會商，你們是要訂定行政命令、訂定一個辦法來調整嗎？還是你們自己……"],["周部長志宏：這個是由人事行政總處那邊在研議，然後我們只是參與，只是會商，基本上都是它召開軍公教待遇審議委員會去做決定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，不過我真的很期待部長這邊能夠考慮顧及我們廣大公務人員包含公教人員的權益，要更積極主動的去跟人事行政總處談，這也是回應廣大公務人員們的心聲，其實真的不需要這麼麻煩，還要去修法，只要把現在的俸點折算額調高就可以了，對不對？"],["周部長志宏：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要問一下有關於考試的部分，我看到你們的立法計畫裡面，其實有關於考試的修正滿多的，包含軍法官，我先談軍法官的部分，軍法官已經有多少年沒有招考了？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該已經有超過10年了。"],["翁委員曉玲：超過10年？可以不招考嗎？依照現在的軍事審判法裡面……"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為它的母法已經廢掉了，所以就沒有軍法官。"],["翁委員曉玲：它的母法有廢掉？沒有、沒有，軍事審判法沒有廢掉。"],["劉秘書長建忻：所以後來不再招考，但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：它只是停止適用……只是軍事審判只有在戰時會啟動，平常、平時期間則是回歸到一般的法院來審理。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，其實我們現在在招募的、幫國防部考國防法務官，就是為了填補軍法官不再招考以後的人力不足……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是國防法務官跟軍法官的職權性質是不一樣的，不知道秘書長您知道這個事情嗎？就是軍法官有法定的職權，可是看起來現在國防法務官只是做一些例行性的法制行政的工作，兩者是不一樣的，更何況現在大家不都說臺灣現在是全世界最危險的地方，隨時可能都會有戰爭發生，而這個戰時，雖然軍法官現在是適用在……軍法官未來會處理有關於在戰時的軍事審判，但是我們要養兵千日，不能說真的發生戰爭，需要啟動軍事審判的時候，結果找不到軍法官，這個部分我覺得其實是問題很嚴重的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，因為考試院是依照現行的法律裡面需要的，配合用人機關來做招考，委員剛剛講的這個問題……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你的意思是國防部是不需要嗎？據我瞭解，其實國防部他們一直都有……"],["劉秘書長建忻：就是說這個應該是法律修正的結果。"],["翁委員曉玲：不！請秘書長回去再看一下軍事審判法第十一條，應該是第二項裡面有講到，軍法官的考試是由考試院舉辦。你們也沒有修正說軍法官考試停辦，這個必須要在法律裡面明定。"],["許部長舒翔：我來回答一下。軍法官的部分，事實上，因為他不屬於公務人員，所以在上一屆考試院也針對這個問題有做一些討論，考試院這邊事實上只負責公務人員考試，軍法官的屬性是屬於軍人，所以在……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，簡單來說，就是要國防部請求你們辦理，你們才會辦理是嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問國防部過去這些年沒有請你們辦理嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：現在就是軍法官的部分暫時不考，但是就是用國防法務官的方式來進用。"],["翁委員曉玲：不、不、不，我現在要講的就是一個前提的問題，就是到底要不要辦軍法官考試的這件事情，發動權是在國防部？"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後考試院是配合辦理，對吧！"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以國防部過去這些年都沒有提出他們要舉辦軍法官考試嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：之前有提出來，但是考試院這邊是有不同的意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：為什麼考試院會有不同的意見？我覺得這個可以討論，但是我覺得主動的發動權還是在國防部，國防部一定有通盤的考量。"],["許部長舒翔：所以國防部後來通盤考量之後，就是用國防法務官的方式來進用有關軍法人才。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是現在軍法官的缺額非常多，而且就像我剛剛講的，軍法官跟國防法務官的權限不同，更何況在現在軍事審判法裡面並沒有訂定國防法務官，所以看起來我覺得國防法務官大概就是處理一些在軍事機關裡面例行性的一些法務行政的問題，這個部分還沒有修法進去，在沒有修法進去的情況之下，其實還是應該要依照軍事審判法裡面的規定，該考軍法官的考試就要考，你可以說錄取比較少的人，可是不可以不考，更何況這個主動權如果在國防部，據我瞭解，其實國防部一直很希望能夠舉辦軍法官考試，現在不太適合說是用國防法務官來代替軍法官，同時未來要怎麼樣轉型，這個都必須進行很多規劃，這個地方我希望考試院可以再去多瞭解。不好意思，主席，我可以再延長一些時間嗎？"],["主席：1分鐘好不好？因為差不多要休息了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那很快的再講。你們這次也有提出高考三級要增加司法行政類的考試，有關於司法行政人員，你們這次考試考司法行政人員，他最主要是要做什麼？"],["許部長舒翔：他主要的工作還是做司法行政的部分，因為他們認為在司法院的行政人員應該還要針對法律能夠有更高的素養。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為司法院之前也有提出他們的立法計畫，他們希望能夠增加法官助理，所以司法行政人員跟法官助理是一樣的嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：不一樣？做的事情不一樣？"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在司法院裡面或是法務部的地檢署，其實他們已經有書記官、司法事務官、檢察事務官，還有一般的法制行政、法官助理，其實有很多都可以協助處理司法行政人員的……滿足司法行政的需求，需要再增加這些員額嗎？而且這些員額不曉得有沒有跟人事行政總處討論過，他們同意舉辦這樣的考試增加員額嗎？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，請簡單回答。"],["劉秘書長建忻：司法院的名額應該是有跟人總討論過，所以他才會有這個擴充的人力。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望之後可以把他們相關討論的紀錄提供給本席做參考，因為據我瞭解，其實人事行政總處並不同意類似這樣子的員額增加，那就到時候再請你們提供資料，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們再來收集資料跟委員做說明。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長。","我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時57分）","繼續開會（11時3分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","先作宣告：今天有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理，預計在傅委員崐萁詢答後，我們再即行處理臨時提案。","接續下來，現在有請吳委員思瑤質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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了解那當然我很希望就是考試院這邊可以去做一個通盤的研析包含不同職系的這個公務人員那麼他們跟一般的民間企業的薪資待遇的這個相比較這樣的話我們才能夠真的去檢討到底我們現在公務人員的待遇是跟民間企業是差多少我們一定不要說是趕上是相當的程度我們一定要縮短中間的這個差距那麼可能才對於要吸引優秀的公務人員比較有誘因"},{"start":198.365,"end":198.465,"text":"麻煩周部長"},{"start":220.461,"end":244.076,"text":"我們這一次調整縫級法當然主要會涉及到整個縫表結構的調整我們希望讓它更合理然後再更有這個規律性那當然這會涉及到這個縫級的提高還有年功縫縫級的增加那目前這個部分當然那是屬於法制層面那實際上縫點則算縫額跟"},{"start":247.858,"end":250.379,"text":"我看這個相關的辦法裡面有講就是有關於就是依照憲法規定其實這個即奉是屬於考試院"},{"start":270.489,"end":274.773,"text":"培訓委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":291.247,"end":294.29,"text":"最近一次的奉典折算額的修正是在什麼時候?"},{"start":311.206,"end":326.604,"text":"奉典則算奉額就會隨著那個待遇的調整像今年限職工人員調升4%當然那個就會做調整所以也就是說最近30年來其實奉典則算奉額的這個調整的次數很少然後調整幅度也不高嘛我剛剛聽了這個羅委員的"},{"start":329.474,"end":343.251,"text":"執行他裡面有提到那麼就現在其實我認為要比較積極的很快速的可以調整公務人員的待遇大概就是可以從這個調整、奉典、折算額"},{"start":345.571,"end":347.252,"text":"責算率可以調整嗎?"},{"start":370.479,"end":394.233,"text":"如果他縫點是在221點到790之間都是這樣所以大部分的公務員可能都是在這個74.3的部分所以如果說你們調高你調到80或是調到85那我覺得公務人員就很有感了我相信也可以吸引更多的考生來報考就代表整個公務員的薪資結構是往上的可能還不需要動到修法這個有關於縫"},{"start":397.194,"end":403.321,"text":"人事行政總署那邊在演繹然後我們只是參與只是會商那基本上都是他召開那個軍公教代理審議委員會去做決定的"},{"start":418.846,"end":440.24,"text":"此部真的很期待就是部長這邊能夠顧慮要能夠考慮顧及我們廣大公務人員包含公教人員的權益要更積極主動的去和這個人事行政總處那裡去談這一定也是回應大家"},{"start":440.94,"end":444.563,"text":"其實我看到你們的立法計畫裡面其實有關於考試的修正蠻多的包含這個軍法官我先談軍法官的部分其實軍法官已經有多少年沒有招考了"},{"start":468.902,"end":472.964,"text":"對於軍事審判就在暫時的時候會啟動那平常平時期間的話他是回歸到一般的法院來審理"},{"start":497.133,"end":515.458,"text":"我們現在在招募的這個幫國防部考這個國防法務官就是為了填補軍法官不再招考以後的可是國防法務官跟軍法官的職權性質是不一樣的不知道秘書長您知道這個事情嗎就軍法官他有法定的職權可是看起來我"},{"start":516.438,"end":539.216,"text":"現在國防法務官他只是做一些例行性的這個法制和行政的工作這兩個是不一樣的更何況現在大家不都說臺灣是我們這個臺灣現在是全世界最危險的地方隨時可能都會有戰爭的發生我們這個暫時就雖然軍法官現在是適用在軍法官未來會這個"},{"start":541.698,"end":541.898,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":559.725,"end":574.683,"text":"新聞報告就是說因為這個考試院是依照現行的法律裡面需要的這個配合用人機關來做招考所以你意思是講說國防部是不需要嗎據我了解其實國防部他們一直都有這個應該是法律修正的結果"},{"start":576.584,"end":592.811,"text":"請秘書長您回去再看一下我們軍事審判法的第11條應該是第二項裡面有講到軍法官的考試是由考試院舉辦那你們也沒有修正講說是這個軍法官考試停辦這個必須要在法律裡面要明定的是"},{"start":595.409,"end":619.701,"text":"我來回答一下這個經法官的部分事實上因為他不屬於公務人員所以在上一屆考試院也針對這個問題有做一些討論那考試院這邊事實上只負責公務人員考試那經法官的屬性他屬於經人所以在上次"},{"start":619.721,"end":644.632,"text":"好 簡單來說就是要國防部要請求你們辦理你們才會辦理是嗎那請問國防部根據這些年沒有請你們辦理嗎所以現在就是軍法官的部分暫時不考但是就是用國防法務官的方式來禁用我現在要講的就是一個前提的問題就是說這件事情到底要不要辦軍法官考試的這件事情發動權是在國防部然後考試院是配合辦理對吧是那所以國防部"},{"start":649.674,"end":678.18,"text":"過去這些年都沒有提出說他們要舉辦軍法官考試嗎之前有提出來但是考試院這邊是有不同的意見是為什麼考試院會有不同的意見我覺得可以討論但是我覺得主動的發動權還是在國防部國防部他一定有通盤的考量所以國防部後來通盤考量之後就是用這個國防法務官的方式來禁用有關軍法人才"},{"start":678.962,"end":705.487,"text":"是可是現在軍法官的這個缺額非常多而且就像我剛剛講的軍法官跟國防事務官他其實他的這個權限不同而更何況在現在軍事審判法裡面並沒有訂定國防法務官所以看起來我覺得國防法務官他大概就是處理一些在軍事機關裡面的例行性的一些法務行政的問題這個部分還沒有修法進去但是沒有修法進去的這個前提這個情況之下"},{"start":706.007,"end":724.503,"text":"其實還是應該要依照軍事審判法裡面的規定該考軍法官的考試就要考你可以說我可以聘比較考就是錄取比較少的人可是不可以不考更何況就是這個主動權如果在國防部那據我了解其實國防部一直很希望能夠舉辦軍法官考試"},{"start":727.686,"end":728.367,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":744.766,"end":766.124,"text":"主席,我可以再延長一些時間嗎?一分鐘好不好?因為要差不多休息了。好,那很快的再講,就是說你們這次也有提出來高考三級要增加司法行政類的考試,這個有關於司法行政人員,你們這次考試,考這個司法行政,司法行政人員他最主要是要做什麼?"},{"start":767.867,"end":788.413,"text":"他主要工作還是做司法行政的部分因為他們認為在司法院這個行政人員應該還要針對法律能夠有更高的素養因為司法院他們之前也有提出他們的立法計畫他們希望能夠增加法官助理所以司法行政人員跟法官助理是一樣嗎?"},{"start":789.706,"end":789.826,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":806.596,"end":807.917,"text":"司法院的名額應該是有跟任總討論過所以他才會有這個擴充的能力"},{"start":832.655,"end":832.815,"text":"休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69038970a51ebf59a7c396e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a662e983eb939d23355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:45:31 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help的一些重要的意義，也希望僑委會當然是以我國的國民為主，但是同時當然我們在協助其他國家的時候，透過正面的宣傳，也讓更多我們的友邦知道我們做的努力，這方面不要只有外交部，僑委會也可以做一些協助跟宣傳……"],["徐委員長佳青：會的，我們如果……好。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為這很重要，特別是在這一次，還好我們這邊的僑民沒有很多，所以一有狀況可以很快速地……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，另外我們在全球設立了一百多個急難救助協會，目的是在我們有限的駐外人員跟官方系統之外，我們也藉由我們僑界的能量，我們的旅外國人，無論是旅遊、探親、遊學、經商等等，如果遇到了車禍或者什麼意外狀況的時候，第一時間可以在當地找到我們的這些團體來協助……"],["陳委員冠廷：我想這個很好，我希望這個宣傳更大一點……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：至少在過去自己的求學或者是就業的經歷裡面，通常大家第一時間想到的就是打到外交部，當然外交部派駐的人員其實是一定不夠的，沒有辦法這樣隨時隨地……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這部分，我希望委員長能夠把急難救助協會這些相關的業務再做宣傳……"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，我們也會把相關的資料送給委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，重點是宣傳讓我們在各個國家，特別是在比較有治安疑慮的地方，一定要有這樣子的資訊來協助。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。好。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來我講一下搭僑計畫，前幾天我也跟委員長討論過搭僑計畫，首先我先肯定透過搭僑計畫，包含僑務研習營、搭僑計畫、臺灣學習體驗營、臺灣觀摩團等等。我們自己的幕僚過去在2019年也有去過巴拉圭，所以相關同仁辛苦了，總之蠻肯定的，你們把外交部的一些工作補足，甚至做得更好，我們也很期許未來有更多這樣的工作。但是我現在要知道的是，這個計畫有沒有打算擴大？要不要提供更多的僑胞資源？之所以這樣講是因為疫情之前的規模挺大的，我們這邊掌握的是18個國家、32個城市有200多個名額，現在是5個城市60多個名額，現在有沒有計畫恢復或者是擴大？"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員的關心，確實疫情前我們有200多個名額，當時因為是各個不同路線的僑胞做home stay的作法，也就是說這部分的cost其實都是我們僑界自行吸收了。疫情期間事實上由於很多邊境的控管，這個計畫我們就暫時沒有執行，疫情後我們也跟很多僑界繼續調查，詢問他們願不願意繼續做類似這樣子的作業，大家因為疫情期間有一些顧慮，就是說自己家裡在host的過程當中擔心有一些風險，因此在疫情後我們重啟搭僑計畫的時候，就沒有辦法比照像之前那樣子，可以有這麼多條路線到僑胞家裡home stay的模式。因此我們在一樣的預算規模，只能收回來全部由我們來自行辦理，變成這些年輕人就是住在旅館，它的cost勢必就是會往上走，所以我們的名額就會往下修。委員非常關心這個議題我們也瞭解，我們也很期待國內有這麼多優秀的大學生有興趣，能夠多瞭解國際社會跟僑務發展的趨勢，我們也很願意來培養年輕人，未來如果我們的預算可以擴增，我們也會增加名額。"],["陳委員冠廷：或者是在預算內部調整。我為什麼講這個搭僑計畫？因為它實質上是在培養很多我們土生土長的國內青年可以跟僑界有溝通……"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我們知道僑界有些是比較年長的華僑或者臺僑，那要看個人的政治的立場不一樣，但是這些年輕的、新一代的臺僑。剛好藉助這個機會直接跟我們的年輕人能夠互動、交流，培養外交人才，這其實都是很大的加分，所以我希望這個計畫能夠再去加強，不要搭便車了，就直接用自己的計畫去做……"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝委員關心，我也跟委員報告最新的進度狀況。我們去年在疫情後首度恢復舉辦，分為四條路線，總共是64個名額，去年來報名的人數是兩百多位，所以錄取率大概25%……"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，那到時候你再跟我講……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是我要跟委員報告，今年不知道為什麼，我們的宣傳管道更普遍以後，今年居然有2,800個來登記，所以我們只有60個……"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好、非常好，我繼續講好不好？這個等一下委員長再給我書面，不然來不及問完，就沒有辦法把這個計畫再擴張。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：我要講的就是報名資格，我們現在提到的搭僑計畫資格書審面試，今年當然這樣很好，但是我不希望只是發公文給大專院校，所以宣傳的部分，特別要知道其實很多大專院校都集中在北部，我們自己是希望能夠讓更多的機會……，你說做外交也好，搭僑計畫也好，不要只鎖定在資源豐富的地方。特別是在中南部的院校，過去我看你們有相關的叫做策勵營，策勵營就是一個管道，也是一個宣傳的管道，我們希望能夠在中南部，特別是在雲嘉南地區能夠去增辦，這樣子有均衡資源的立場，我還是希望這樣的好的計畫能夠讓更多的青年加入……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們每年在徵選的時候也會考慮到地域性的問題……"],["陳委員冠廷：然後還有一個部分，徵選時我知道大家對英文很重視，可是也必須知道我們的特殊性，有些雲嘉南地區的孩子們，他們在接觸語言的話，可能沒有辦法達到這樣的標準，可是他們有他們的特色營，比方說我們的溪口國中有陀螺校隊或者是無人機隊，這種機會，就是有包含科技跟傳統文藝結合在一起的，也必須要納入更高的考量。因為其實偏鄉的小朋友他們不見得有辦法有這麼多口說的機會，有辦法有這麼多作答的機會，我還是希望加強，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，所以我們也積極推動英語營計畫，讓海外很多的……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我知道，當然提供英語營這個很重要，但是我還是要說，把我們能夠宣傳的傳統文化也好，或是說我們現在主推的，我們嘉義現在是無人機次世代的產業，所以很多同學們也希望能夠透過這個機會讓大家知道，我們臺灣除了我們的傳統文化，還有我們次世代的產業是什麼，藉由這樣的方式也是在做外交，所以……"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，我們會來促進交流。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，所以這幾個部分還是希望，像搭僑跟撤僑都是僑委會很重要的一些任務，再麻煩委員長能夠多花一點心思跟資源在這邊。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.54971875,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.359718750000003,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.87284375,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.08346875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.74534375,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.80846875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.27159375,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.312843750000006,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.15909375000001,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.44596875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.80784375,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.90471875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.95909375000001,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.43971875000001,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.53534375000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":135.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.11346875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.24409375,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.56721875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.12471875,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.87096875,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.68721875,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.64784375000002,"end":244.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.13596875000002,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.65971875000002,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.67846875000004,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.55096875000004,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.20034375,"end":276.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.95096875,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.80284375,"end":272.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.29159375,"end":282.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.64034375,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.76409375000003,"end":425.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.13221875000005,"end":405.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.15846875000005,"end":433.56659375000004},{"sp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stay的這個做法也就是說這個部分的cost其實都是我們僑界自行吸收了那疫情期間事實上由於很多邊境的控管那這個計畫我們就暫時沒有執行"},{"start":359.683,"end":374.437,"text":"疫情後我們也跟很多僑界繼續做調查詢問他們願不願意繼續做類似這樣的作業大家因為疫情期間有了一些顧慮就是說在自己家裡在host的過程當中擔心有一些風險"},{"start":375.898,"end":398.977,"text":"所以因此在疫情後我們重啟這個搭橋計畫的時候就沒有辦法照比照像之前那樣子可以有這麼多條路線跟這個到僑胞家裡home stay的模式因此我們在有一樣的預算規模裡面只能做收回來全部由我們來自行辦理那變成這些年輕人他就是住在旅館了"},{"start":399.898,"end":425.38,"text":"那這個cost勢必就是會往上走所以我們的名額就變成下修那委員非常關心這個議題我們也了解我們也很期待說國內有這麼多優秀的大學生有興趣能夠多了解我們的國際社會跟僑務發展的這個趨勢我們也很願意來培養年輕人那未來如果我們預算可以擴增我們也會增加名額"},{"start":426.175,"end":426.355,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":442.062,"end":442.422,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":462.801,"end":484.773,"text":"謝謝委員關心,我也跟委員報告最新的進度狀況我們去年在疫情後首度恢復舉辦我們分了4條路線,總共是64個名額當去年來報名的人數是200多位,所以錄取率大概25%但是今年,我要跟委員報告,今年不知道為什麼"},{"start":485.894,"end":486.134,"text":"大條計劃資格書審面試"},{"start":506.115,"end":521.321,"text":"今年當然這樣很好但是我們不希望說只是發公文給大專院校所以宣傳的部分特別要知道其實很多大專院校都集中在北部那我們自己的希望是希望說能夠讓更多的機會比如說做外交也好搭橋計畫也好不要只鎖定在資源豐富的地方"},{"start":521.561,"end":521.661,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":548.199,"end":559.047,"text":"針選對英文很重視必須要知道我們的特殊性有些雲江地區的孩子們他們在接觸語言的話可能沒有辦法達到這樣的標準可是他們有他們的特色"},{"start":560.808,"end":561.648,"text":"提供英語營,但是我還是說把"},{"start":586.616,"end":586.816,"text":"我們會來促進交流"},{"start":605.58,"end":605.64,"text":"陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"149771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690392941117215ad4ee33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6f1decb59356a5c705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:46:32 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員關切的話要排得遙遙無期那我的鄉親真的是因應期盼因為淹水"},{"start":393.129,"end":414.264,"text":"其實我覺得說我會重振也是因為看到鄉親淹水之苦我會覺得說不應該真的不應該那淹水真的太難過了所以真的很期待說我們一起來共同做好事確實這幾年因為有前瞻預算那政府也非常重視那個易淹水地區的改善那這個對鄉下的農民和居民其實是很有感的"},{"start":417.546,"end":438.381,"text":"所以雖然是這樣的一個地區的工程可是我們都非常努力來做那也看得出好幾個很好的成效有謝謝部長我想人在公門好修行大家都一起做功德然後一起把這個善的循環累積下去尤其這些農民這是他一輩子他一輩子就是這一條農路或這一條"},{"start":440.583,"end":443.686,"text":"除了一直在講說動漲電費這件事情就是說 330度以下的民生電費動漲還有希望說農業用電跟漁業用電動漲之外"},{"start":462.463,"end":485.764,"text":"高跨那個節流的部分就是也希望有一個因應措施過去那個中小企業發展條例中有規定如果企業為基層員工調高薪資就能夠享有減稅的優惠這項規定是為了鼓勵企業能夠為最基層的員工加薪提高這個員工基層的待遇可是這個優惠預定今年"},{"start":486.204,"end":490.548,"text":"五月十九就要到期了那所以本席又提出修法希望延長這樣子的措施請問部長支持嗎?是是那我們目前院的版本草案也已經拿出來了我們草案正在這個讓大家表示意見那我們會用盡快的速度也會大家的意見完了以後送到院裡面趕快送到立法院來審查我們也是贊成要延長這一點要拜託部長對啊盡快的"},{"start":513.387,"end":513.687,"text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員"}]}},{"id":"149770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903d20d95b2d635e10933e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a643e8375b369a28fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:37:23 - 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那揭露就很簡單就是比方說哪個公司多少錢就這樣那我們本來想說是不是有更友善的方式我們要查詢的時候是查詢得到的因為目前我上網去查是沒有查詢到如果你們有更好的一個功能的部分有更好的功能嗎"},{"start":160.459,"end":183.461,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為我至少我上去他就是非常的不友善就是只能夠簡單看到就是時間序列出來然後看不到你沒有任何查詢的一個機制那之後如果要補充說明再到本辦來稍微做一下說明那我另外想要提到另外一個點就是說我想問一下部長就是說因為你覺得我看到那個我們"},{"start":184.862,"end":213.15,"text":"經濟部的一個新聞稿就對於整個外商來台灣投資的部分的時候我覺得感覺到經濟不是熱誠歡迎的可是對於陸資來台投資的時候我就感覺就感覺態度是不太一樣的那我這邊我想要講一個點就是說我們對於整個台灣以外的企業來台灣投資我覺得應該都站在一個歡迎的立場我覺得這是很重要的一個點因為我看到一個數字就是說對於大陸來台投資"},{"start":214.831,"end":235.57,"text":"僅30件,金額2969萬美金,然後聊勝於無用一個聊勝於無這樣的一個字眼的時候我覺得感覺就有一些價值判斷在那裡頭啦那我是覺得可能不是那麼適合你們回去看一下你們的新聞稿再來跟我因為我是從你們新聞稿裡面看到的字眼我就覺得感覺有一些不一樣的態度"},{"start":236.271,"end":238.953,"text":"本集辦公室也常常接到一個狀態就是說從港澳來台灣投資的狀態的時候感覺會碰到很多"},{"start":258.479,"end":258.619,"text":"應該沒有"},{"start":275.478,"end":275.658,"text":"目前沒有,對"},{"start":289.898,"end":290.098,"text":"姓寶基金"},{"start":306.808,"end":322.763,"text":"中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告裡面他有特別提到了一個點就是說我們整個信保基金整個信保基金他"},{"start":325.265,"end":338.584,"text":"到去年6月底指預期還款的比數有到11萬筆那預期保證金額超過174億元平均新發生的預期比例高達3.83%這個數字沒有錯嘛"},{"start":343.527,"end":366.594,"text":"是 報告委員是沒有錯那他裡面就特別提到了一個點就是說如果說我們現在整個城堡的保證金額它的平均發生的預期比率計算的時候整體可能預期的理賠金額會高達364億元那麼跟整個當時我們在這個特別預算的時候呢本來"},{"start":368.618,"end":393.182,"text":"保證那個專款預算是870億後來流用到其他的部其他的項目當中的時候導致我們保證專款可用的預算僅剩下245億元對不對那我們如果按照原本3.83的預期比率去推的時候呢我們整個的信保基金的一個預期理賠的金額可能會到達364億那跟當時的"},{"start":398.584,"end":422.394,"text":"兩百四十五億的時候會產生一百一十九億元的缺口我想請問部長這一百一十九億你要從哪裡補回來?報告委員因為這個新發生預期率每個月都會變動所以目前我們觀察的狀況目前兩百四十五億如果要來賠付的話以目前的新發生預期率來看的話應該還足夠"},{"start":424.195,"end":425.196,"text":"對,如果說補辦預算的時候,坦白說"},{"start":442.228,"end":466.538,"text":"我們一定是支持中小企業的所以我們對中小企業的支持反映在性保基因當中我們特別的關注因為我們擔心如果這119億補不進去的時候會不會影響到之後中小企業他們之後要得到性保基因支持會不會更困難所以本席提這個部分的時候要特別提醒"},{"start":467.298,"end":469.359,"text":"我們希望能夠提早把這個預算能夠儘早把它補辦起來"},{"start":486.508,"end":494.597,"text":"不要到時候影響到整個中小企業需要得到信保基金支持的時候而不夠我覺得這是我們針對這個問題當中我們看到一個最大的問題那至於說當時這個870億的特別預算後來有625億流用到什麼地方"},{"start":505.029,"end":506.39,"text":"政府一定會讓信保基金可以來擔保中小企業的部分 這個政府一定會支持"},{"start":523.585,"end":540.522,"text":"最後請部長到時候把針對我們去年一些外商投資的相關的資料希望能夠分國家跟地區給我一個詳細的資料那我也想特別知道從港澳這邊過來的資金到底有多少好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69038b7dccf36cc535dbb77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6c6e21bf91d2494025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:32:59 - 10:44:25","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:44:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:32:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長好。在去年我們全臺灣人民有一個小確幸，就是因為我們的稅收超徵，後來因為我提出還稅於民，那麼後來不分朝野很多位的委員都呼應，最後造成發現金，就是我們每個人都可以收6,000塊現金，2022年我們的稅收超徵是4,500億，可以看到這個是當時蔡英文總統臉書的一個分配，有拿出1,800億來普發現金給每個人，當然，其他的就去規劃一些給地方政府，還有一個很重要的，包含去做電價補貼，撥補台電。今年其實稅收超徵的金額也不少，起碼達到3,600億。我想請問主計長，今年有沒有機會再來還稅於民、再普發現金？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，外界講的3,600億是包括地方政府在裡面，另外一個的話，今年雖然稅收超徵，可是我們今年仍然有發行公債，而且特別預算裡面也有公債，如果扣掉這些以後，剩下只有一千多億，而且……"],["王委員鴻薇：剩下多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概1,500億不到。"],["王委員鴻薇：1,500億不到喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，如果要發現金的話，可能又要一個特別條例。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我知道，我瞭解。"],["朱主計長澤民：又會說我們濫用第八十三條第四款。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦，主計長，我知道，我只是問你，會不會發現金，你說不會，你說現在……"],["朱主計長澤民：目前沒有這個規畫。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你說現在不會發。你剛才有講一個數字我很感興趣，你說雖然大家講3,600億，但是你好像有一些公債等等之類的，是不是？所以事實上金額……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為我們還有公債，我不能夠說我有賸餘，然後我又去借錢，那就是矛盾的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好的，那我請問一下，所以剛才你講的大概是1,500億左右是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，1,500億。"],["朱主計長澤民：而且要等審計部7、8月審計完了以後，我才能夠用，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：你才能用對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我現在要問你一個很重要的問題，因為現在大家非常關心物價、關心電價上漲，電價到底要漲多少？到現在經濟部口風很緊，大概只知道有10%以上，另外經濟部也對外說，就是因為有稅收超徵，所以今年經濟部爭取這個稅收超徵的部分要補助、撥補台電，希望能夠達到1,500億。剛才主計長說現在也只剩1,500億，那麼撥補台電1,500億的可能性有嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我現在沒有看到經濟部的任何方案，所以我不能夠說到底會撥補多少。我剛才說有1,500億，我1,500億統統撥出去以後，就像一個家庭一樣，它都沒有賸餘款，那個是很危險的……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為主計長就像我們的大帳房，對不對？所以你說現在我們雖然稅收超徵，但是你有發行公債等等其他的支出，所以現在也不過剩1,500億，如果把1,500億全部都撥補台電的話，那麼我們就沒有賸餘了，是不是？我這樣講正不正確？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是沒有賸餘，對，的確。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以要撥補台電1,500億很困難。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我現在是說如果要撥的話，編明（114）年的預算會很吃緊。"],["王委員鴻薇：很吃緊喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那撥1,000億有沒有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不做這種預估，因為那個方案是台電要提出來的，我沒有看到這個是1,500的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，瞭解，所以主計長的意思是，如果剩1,500億的話，明年預算幾乎都很難編了。好，時間暫停，我請一下審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長先留步，我還沒問完，還是有相關，不好意思。"],["主席：請稍等。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長，剛才主計長講了一個很重要的觀念，就是今年的稅收超徵審計部還沒有完成審定，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是問題是4月電價就要上漲了，而且電價上漲的幅度來自於稅收超徵可以撥補台電多少，這個程序對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：電價上漲就是電價上漲，它是漲電價，要撥補是另外一回事，兩個不能一起看。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為電價上漲會增加收入，撥補台電會增加台電的資本，增加它的現金，兩個都對現金有幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在程序上剛才主計長也講了，一定要先經過審計部的審定之後，才能確定能夠撥補台電多少，這個程序是一定要這樣走，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個它到底有多少賸餘，我們要把112年的決算審定完以後才能確認下來，因為有時候會找到它是稽徵收入的，有時候會找到某一種……所以到底多少……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊要特別去釐清，因為最近經濟部一直在放話說，這次稅收超徵3,600億，現在台電希望要1,500億，可是主計長已經說這樣子明年預算怎麼編？雖然主計長不曉得會不會繼續留任啦！那現在就給它1,500億，下一任新政府的預算，就是賴清德的預算很難編，1,000億看起來也很難。可是兩位，主計長、審計長，現在我們這個稅收超徵，我剛一直講說會不會還稅於民、會不會普發現金？我早就知道不會普發現金，因為你這個錢，有好多部會都有很多的赤字、很多的債務，不只台電在這邊已經喊著要這個1,500億，現在還有勞保基金，因為也在2028年可能會破產，所以連勞動部也在想這塊，就像那個什麼也在流口水，也希望在這一次能夠撥補勞保基金的空缺。好，那你現在全部只有1,500億，如果1,500億統統給台電，勞保基金就沒錢了，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，社會保險它的恐怖不是它什麼時候會倒，而是它不會倒，所以我們必須去面對，而且……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我現在問你的是……"],["朱主計長澤民：補助也不是唯一的辦法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在問你是……"],["朱主計長澤民：同樣的，台電你一直給它補助，你不給它電價調高，未來就不見得有這麼多的稅收超徵能夠補助它……"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！沒錯，這一點我同意啊！稅收超徵……"],["朱主計長澤民：所以電價的補助跟電價的調整必須雙管齊下，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思是說電價還是要調整，但我們現在就是說這筆錢怎麼算，因為連勞保基金都在想你這個錢，問題是你現在根本沒有這麼多錢，他們想像中3,600億，1,500億給台電，還有2,000億啊！2,000億勞保基金也可以來分一分啊！因為在去年的時候，他們分到了550億，讓他們覺得很補。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，如果要把3,600億統統用到的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦！最後結論，有沒有可能台電補1,500億，然後勞保基金補500億，有沒有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：勞保基金的部分，今年總共就已經補了它1,300億了。"],["王委員鴻薇：那是去年啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：今年啦！今年的預算有1,300億。"],["王委員鴻薇：那是去……啊！我知道，你那個是預算，我是說稅收超徵部分的這個錢，有沒有可能嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們的錢是統收統支，並沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以按照你剛才計算，就沒有可能再給勞保基金了嘛！對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：勞保基金的錢是統收統支的概念補它。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我時間到了，我還有2分鐘，早知道我還可以問一下物價。我要講的是我們現在是叫做寅吃卯糧，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有寅吃卯糧……"],["王委員鴻薇：現在稅收超徵根本是一個機會，就是說它並不是每一年都應該發生的事情……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有寅吃卯糧，我們都是按照大院通過的預算在處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：哎呀！主計長，我講話，你一直在插嘴，在幹嘛啦？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！因為你說……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才問你，你回答就好啦！我在講話，你也一直在講話，是怎樣呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：抱歉。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在大家都想要稅收超徵這3,600億，但是這錢，我今天至少釐清一個觀念，剛才主計長講了，其實這樣子七折八扣也只不過1,500億，但是現在台電要1,500億，勞保基金也想……他們都是公開講喔！他們也希望從這個稅收超徵能夠去幫基金撥補，因為他們的虧損過大。主計長剛剛講的話我完全都同意，稅收超徵不是年年超徵，但是這些台電虧損跟勞保基金虧損是年年都在虧損，而且虧損是一年比一年多，不只台電虧損，中油也還在虧損。如果今天政府想著我們的虧損只是拿稅收超徵來補的話，這叫做寅吃卯糧，而現在全部補完了之後，就如同主計長所講的，那麼明年預算很難編。","我的結論就是，蔡政府把這些錢都花光了，最後讓賴清德他去編預算的時候，是很困難編的，所以我同意政府的財政不是這樣做法。台電要減少它的虧損，不是來自於說每年稅收超徵要給我1,000億、給我1,500億，這個非長久之計。更何況剛才審計長也講得非常清楚了，你怎麼可以現在就講1,500億？審計部都還沒有審定，你台電憑什麼現在就要錢？所以這個也是於程序不符啦！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員。發言完畢，休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":229.187,"end":239.616,"text":"所以你說現在以我們雖然稅收超徵但是你有發行公債等等其他的支出所以呢現在也不過剩1500億如果把1500億全部都撥補台電的話那麼我們就沒有剩餘了是不是我這樣講這麼正確就是沒有那個剩餘對的確所以"},{"start":250.825,"end":252.246,"text":"要撥補台電1500億很困難對我現在是說如果要撥的話到明年編114的預算會很吃緊很吃緊那撥1000億有沒有可能這個是我不做"},{"start":265.811,"end":285.794,"text":"請審計長"},{"start":289.63,"end":317.017,"text":"主計長先留步我還沒問完呢還是有相關不好意思啊請稍等委員好 審計長剛才主計長講了一個很重要的觀念就是說今年的稅收超徵還沒有完成我們審計部還沒有審定對不對可是問題是4月4月電價就要上漲了而且他電價上漲的幅度來自於這個稅收超徵可以撥補台電多少這個程序對嗎"},{"start":319.588,"end":320.209,"text":"所以在程序上剛才主計長也講了"},{"start":340.959,"end":366.139,"text":"一定要先經過審計部的審定之後才能夠確定能夠撥補台電多少這個程序是一定要這樣走對不對他到底有沒有多少剩餘我們要把這個112年度的結算審定完以後才確認下來因為有時候會找到他是期增收入的有時候會找到某一種那個所以到底多少"},{"start":366.579,"end":380.15,"text":"所以我在這邊要特別去釐清因為最近經濟部一直在放說這次稅收超生3600億啊經濟就是台電可以拿他現在希望要1500億可是主計長已經說這樣子明年預算怎麼編雖然主計長不曉得會不會繼續留任那現在就給他1500億下一任的新政府的預算就是賴清德的預算還很難編"},{"start":390.379,"end":411.333,"text":"一千億看起來也很難可是啊主計長兩位署議長審計長現在我們這個稅收超徵我剛剛一直講說會不會啊就是還稅移民會不會普發現金我早就知道不會普發現金因為你這個錢啊好多部會啊因為他們都很多的赤字很多的債務"},{"start":412.794,"end":438.802,"text":"不只台電在這邊已經喊著要這個1500億現在還有勞保基金院也在2028年可能會破產所以呢連勞動部也在想這塊就像那個什麼也在流口水也希望能夠在這一次能夠撥補勞保基金的空缺好那你現在全部只有1500億如果1500億通通給台電"},{"start":442.903,"end":467.015,"text":"老保基金就沒錢了對不對跟那個委員報告一下社會保險他的恐怖不是他什麼時候會倒而是他不會倒所以說我們必須去面對而且補助也不是唯一的辦法同樣的台電你一直給他補助你不給他電價調高未來就不見得有這麼多的稅收超徵能夠補助他這一點我同意啊"},{"start":470.217,"end":471.639,"text":"所以你的意思是說電價還是要調整但我們現在就是說這個底錢怎麼算因為連勞保基金都在想你這個錢但問題是你現在根本沒有這麼多錢"},{"start":486.957,"end":501.48,"text":"他們想像中2600億、3600億、1500億給台電還有2000億啊2000億呢勞保基金也可以來分一分啊因為在去年的時候呢他們分到了550億讓他們覺得很補好啦最後結論有沒有可能台電"},{"start":512.596,"end":538.558,"text":"補1500億然後勞保基金補500億有沒有可能?勞保基金今年就總共已經補了他1300億了那是去年啦今年啦今年的預算啦有1300億啊我知道那個預算我是說稅收超徵的部分這個錢有沒有可能嘛我們的錢是統收統資並沒有所以沒有可能按照你剛才計算就沒有可能再給勞保基金了嘛對不對"},{"start":539.861,"end":540.662,"text":"我要講的是我們現在是叫做銀吃卯糧"},{"start":558.331,"end":575.347,"text":"對不起現在就是說稅收超生根本是一個機會就是說並不是每一年都應該發生的事情哎呀主計長我講話你一直在插嘴在幹嘛啦我剛才問你問你你就回答就好啦我在講話你一直在講話是怎樣呢抱歉"},{"start":579.907,"end":600.206,"text":"現在大家都想要稅收超徵這3600億但是這錢我今天至少釐清一個觀念剛才佐記長講了其實這樣子七折八扣也只不過1500億但是呢現在台電要1500億勞保基金也想他們都是公開講喔他們也希望從這個稅收超徵能夠去幫這個基金撥補因為他們的這個虧損過大"},{"start":604.31,"end":628.429,"text":"那所以稅收超徵不是年年超徵主計長剛講的話我完全的同意稅收超徵不是年年超徵但是這些台電虧損跟勞保基金虧損是年年都在虧損而且虧損是一年比一年多不只台電虧損周永還在虧損如果今天我們的政府想著我們的虧損只是想拿稅收超徵來補的話這叫做飲吃卯糧"},{"start":631.872,"end":650.935,"text":"而現在全部補完了之後就如同主計長所講的那麼明年預算很難編那我的結論就是蔡政府把這些錢都花光了最後讓賴清德他去編預算的時候是很困難編的所以我同意政府的財政不是這樣做法"},{"start":651.716,"end":651.736,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":682.305,"end":686.575,"text":"下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員發言完畢休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903936e4028cae9a89696e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a68188cd1f86e2912d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:35:44 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10:44:44","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":540,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:44:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:35:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時35分）謝謝主席。委員長，有請。"],["主席：有請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：牛委員，恭喜。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，委員長早安。"],["徐委員長佳青：早安。"],["牛委員煦庭：我請教一下，現在大家都希望職場的環境更健康，尤其是僑務外派其實壓力很大。我們要落實性平三法的精神，委員長，你覺得僑務委員會自評可以打幾分？"],["徐委員長佳青：我不敢自評，但每兩年行政院性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分，我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅地進步。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我們討論一個個案，之前媒體也見諸報導，就是巴西聖保羅的性騷擾案件，這個案件大概是這樣，6月的時候進行了訪談、訪視，就是駐外的外交人員被性騷擾的狀況，所以6月時先會談雙方，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：我本人自己有會談他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：你本人親自會談嘛，我沒有搞錯的話，你那時應該是副委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：已經是委員長了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。當初第一時間的結論是不是你嚴加告誡加害者？"],["徐委員長佳青：我已經把他判定是性騷擾。"],["牛委員煦庭：他就是性騷擾嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，所以我要求性騷擾加害人要調回。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你覺得當事人當初為什麼沒有選擇申訴？"],["徐委員長佳青：他覺得我們已經將他職務分離，而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回，所以他就同意了這樣的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我想公部門就是這樣，大家當然希望可以依法辦事、公正處理，因為公部門就是團體生活，當然也會擔心後面會不會衍生職場上的不友善或是標籤，凡此種種其實都背離了性平三法的精神，我要先提醒委員長。後來事情就這樣爆發，10月開始召開記者會，顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的。"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，委員，因為當事人有其他的訴求，顯然其他的訴求沒有達到，因此他把這一個移轉到這樣的作業。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以他對於當初最後的處置結果其實是不滿意的嘛，其實……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說，我們在該地的派駐因為員額的關係要減為一人，所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，我想遇到性平事件，雖然本席是男性，但我覺得還是要把話講清楚，就是目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道，要嚴懲加害人、以儆效尤嘛，我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全，覺得這個環境越來越友善、越來越平等，這個你應該不會反對吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人。"],["牛委員煦庭：促進立法過程，對嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但後來這件事情最後的處置，第一個你講調回的部分，我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應啦，因為如果你發生這件事是按照這樣的邏輯的話，你是不是真正……因為外館的狀況是人數很少嘛，你很難做到真正的職務分離吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：原則上跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：一個主任、一個副主任怎麼分離呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們還有兩位雇員都在現場，我們已經有跟他們說，他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係，但當然還是難免會遇到。在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是，主管負有義務，要先讓友善的環境繼續維持下去，所以我在第一時間就將……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，現在加害人是主管的狀況。"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的權限關係。"],["牛委員煦庭：我問一下，為什麼你不第一時間把加害人調回來就好了呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們想要調回來……"],["牛委員煦庭：你另外再補人嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我同意你另外再補人，那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認，到我們要調回有一定的時間，因為我們在國內必須先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證，這些東西都還要會給外交部，一般的作業我們至少是3個月的期程，所以並不是委員想得那麼簡單，我直接先把他調回來，那裡就變成這個業務沒有人執行了。"],["牛委員煦庭：不過顯然，當然這跟……"],["徐委員長佳青：一定要有交接好，新的人去才能交接。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個我要再追問的是最後的考績，因為你能夠彰顯這個職場環境的公平，一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為嘛，也就是說，要麼就是調離現職，你剛剛講你有一套說法，說有一定的程序要跑，沒關係，那至少另外一個武器叫考績嘛，你這個加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎？難道不應該嚴懲嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人事實上幫被害人承接了非常多的工作，在一整年的工作當中，之所以被害人最後的成績是在丙等……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天沒有要跟你爭執被害人的考績問題……"],["徐委員長佳青：是因為他在該年度的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我只問加害人的考績問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人的考績也沒有很好，他只多他一分而已，那個一分的意義就在於他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說，僑委會最後的結果是成立還有申誡一支啦，然後考績乙等。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個我們有正式的調查委員會，有3位委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：我是不知道社會大眾怎麼看這件事情，但是我們如果真的要落實性平三法、要嚴懲性騷擾加害人的話，這樣子顯然是輕輕放下吧？難道不應該更嚴格嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：這個不是我決定的，這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果，我只能簽核而已，我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案，顯然獨立調查委員會自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候，認為這個有不當追求的嫌疑，因此判定他是性騷擾成立，但是情節沒有到重大的程度，所以才會顯然地給予一次申誡的警告，這不是我委員長個人可以處理的，因為這是獨立的委員會。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，我現在提醒你，現在就是這樣嘛，你這整個制度上，其實從制度的角度來看這件事情，包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講，針對我們的外館你要落實性平三法這些精神、你要杜絕性騷擾這些狀況的時候，你在外館本來就要有專門的處遇措施，因為距離遙遠，沒有辦法……人數又不夠。"],["徐委員長佳青：一線的館長都要處理，沒有錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情，在那邊的長官就是加害人本人，然後你在處遇的時候又沒有辦法及時調回，你有你的理由，你又沒有辦法在事後用考績的方式予以重懲，那我們怎麼會相信僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善，或是真的落實性別平等精神的職場呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員如果想知道這個個案，我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，我再三強調，我不去跟你討論被害人現在的狀況。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為遇到這樣的事情，被害人通常都很敏感，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：我一定是性騷擾零容忍，這個是本會一直以來的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你的說法叫做性騷擾零容忍，但最後的處遇是這樣的時候，我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛，對不對？最後……不好意思，再給我一點時間。"],["徐委員長佳青：因為我們目前立法是允許加害人可以反悔他原來的說法，所以雖然在第一時間，被害人接受我們的處置，而且他覺得處置的非常公正嚴明，但事後他有其他的想法、覺得不能平復，我們也在10月份接受了他的申訴。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，你認為他為什麼會覺得不能平復？"],["徐委員長佳青：我剛剛已經講了，因為他有另外的想法，他要的東西沒有達到他的目標。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創；第二個，這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤嘛，甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況啦，所以我才講處理這種事情最明快、最有效，而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人嘛，對不對？至少大家心理比較平衡吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我跟你是一樣的心情，但是我們根據公務人員服務法，首長不可以自己隨意妄加罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲，我們還是必須回歸公務人員服務法及性別工作平等法。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後我提醒一下，你這個僑委會的性別平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展，你的專案小組開會的會議紀錄，好像資料也有很多……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們請人事室馬上提供給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：更重要的是……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們每一年定期開兩次，現在召集人是我們阮副委員長。"],["牛委員煦庭：監察院去年3月就已經提醒，你針對外館要有一套處置措施、要一套新的SOP，到現在為止還沒有通過，中間還發生了這樣的事。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個是針對外交部的。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是要處理啊，結果出來了沒？是不是也要跟大家說明一下？因為一方面今天我……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天的訴求，第一個叫重懲加害人；第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來，不要再有下一個悲劇發生了，我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：臺灣的外交人才已經很少了，不容易啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去折損，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：當然！非常同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：性平三法的精神有沒有被落實、怎麼落實？給自己打幾分？"],["徐委員長佳青：我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝您。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝牛委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。就剛剛的部分，我們還是請委員長可以提供相關的資料，其實首長還是有考績的決定權，包括打丙等。如果這個會造成比較大的傷害，大家再來重視這個案子，好不好？到時候再請委員長也提供資料給我們委員會。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"113130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這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦"},{"start":58.2,"end":59.3,"text":"當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者"},{"start":81.787,"end":85.535,"text":"我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴"},{"start":92.125,"end":114.834,"text":"他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長"},{"start":115.794,"end":121.501,"text":"那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實"},{"start":136.298,"end":163.892,"text":"我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":164.492,"end":183.547,"text":"我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧"},{"start":184.948,"end":191.071,"text":"原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間"},{"start":213.139,"end":218.065,"text":"加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認"},{"start":228.716,"end":254.931,"text":"那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠"},{"start":257.814,"end":271.487,"text":"張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎"},{"start":273.689,"end":293.675,"text":"加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好"},{"start":294.175,"end":300.079,"text":"他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。"},{"start":316.307,"end":319.129,"text":"這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的"},{"start":336.241,"end":336.421,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告"},{"start":353.571,"end":366.98,"text":"從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠"},{"start":370.202,"end":394.878,"text":"那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告"},{"start":395.478,"end":413.072,"text":"我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛"},{"start":413.812,"end":414.953,"text":"委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?"},{"start":438.121,"end":456.286,"text":"我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人"},{"start":457.482,"end":459.444,"text":"委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法"},{"start":477.035,"end":501.256,"text":"平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的"},{"start":504.278,"end":525.631,"text":"也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損"},{"start":526.912,"end":536.023,"text":"信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦"}]}},{"id":"149767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69038c87fe7cdc1df2133ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a638ccd65fb7a125885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:29:33 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秘書長我先就講這個就是我想前幾天有發生因為那個臺北市社會局有一位女科員涉及販毒的一個事件那這個事情依據媒體在3月7號的一個揭露"},{"start":36.255,"end":53.54,"text":"女科員涉嫌販毒遭逮捕後以20萬元交保後傳北市社會局也在事發隔日要召開考機委員會並要求女科員出席陳述申辯不過這位女科員她缺席考機會"},{"start":55.52,"end":81.137,"text":"臺北市社會局表示,因為當事人沒有出席考試會﹚沒有完成所謂的陳述跟申辯程序﹚所以會再通知當事人預計7天內含例假日會再開考試會﹚目前也將現有關鍵證據依照公務人員服務法﹚公務人員懲戒法及相關規範來依附懲戒﹚並先行停止其職務﹚"},{"start":82.358,"end":94.213,"text":"而以公務人員奉旗法的規定停職期間仍可領取半薪。這是台北市政府的一個新聞稿那我想就叫秘書長"},{"start":95.937,"end":121.469,"text":"您認為因為個人犯刑責而遭停職的處分,卻仍可以領取半薪半奉,這樣合理嗎?符合我們社會的觀感及人民的法律情感嗎?我跟委員報告,這個部分涉及對於目前懲戒或懲處工具的應用,那我這個是不是請周部長來做?好,請部長回答"},{"start":122.967,"end":140.013,"text":"因為在目前這個案例因為還沒有判決確定在判決確定之前用停職那給判刑是維持他基本的生活是給他適當的一個保障但是因為我們在還沒有判刑確定之前基本上還是要推定無罪"},{"start":140.553,"end":147.58,"text":"您剛才的論述就是說您基於無罪推定的原則所以會保障他的基本生活所以給他半分但是我想這樣子針對每個案子都不一樣"},{"start":165.68,"end":194.995,"text":"那你像這種販毒的案子啊販毒涉及公務人員涉及販毒啊還可以領半薪啊我想這個對人民的法律情感真的是非常不能接受大家觀感非常差這個已經造成說我們公務人員的聲譽很大的影響這種人因為他這個還沒有判刑確定或者一直還沒有判決那因為受到停止職務停職人可以領半薪那"},{"start":195.515,"end":216.932,"text":"我現在問你,你認為以你個人的觀感,你認為這個合理嗎?我們先不講法律啦,你的感覺啦,你個人的感受。所以你的觀感也不好嘛,對不對?那既然說權敘部委感覺觀感不好,這個法制是不是有檢討修正的必要性?"},{"start":217.728,"end":217.828,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":238.493,"end":260.131,"text":"其實說我們雖然尊重無罪推定的原則但是我們是不是就得依照諷刑法保留得知給半信本諷的彈性空間是否仍有它的一個必要性當然你現在是該講得是授權那個行政機關本身來做決定"},{"start":261.132,"end":276.14,"text":"但是你把這種事情全部授權行政機關而不去在法制面上做修正那這個會造成行政機關他們在這個運用上會有很大的一個疑慮給首長太大的權利"},{"start":277.401,"end":305.821,"text":"所以這部分這個學者也建議說應該慎重設計相關的要件來這個符合我們法律的一個設計所以這部分我是今天有一個提案要求說我們這個考試院能夠就這個部分能夠在三個月提出一個修正建議的必要去延期是否有修正的一個必要性就相關的要件是不是做制度的一個修改"},{"start":308.562,"end":309.823,"text":"請問秘書長對於今年考試報名的人數您樂觀嗎?"},{"start":335.216,"end":342.101,"text":"我覺得有一個部分可以期待因為我們今年高補考是大規模減科減少考科的第一屆的實施"},{"start":345.476,"end":347.097,"text":"所以你也思考說怎麼樣讓這個考生能夠回流"},{"start":375.317,"end":388.96,"text":"對,因為我們看到就是說在五年內來看的話我們高考報考人數2019年是四萬五千多人到去年的報考人數已降到三萬七千多人所以一直在下降"},{"start":390.1,"end":407.039,"text":"那我想看秘書長您回答我們幾位委員的有關於這個公務人員報考人數下滑的原因剛才那個部長也有回答就第一個是少子化的原因另外因為外部競爭的關係還有第三個是因為那個待遇的問題"},{"start":408.621,"end":433.632,"text":"但是我觀察到一個面向就是說這個現在我們在原單位的公務人員離職率非常高我們以新北市為例我們看新北市新北市它在2022年它的離職數是298人但是調往中央的往中央跑的人數高達166人"},{"start":436.653,"end":459.59,"text":"所以這個面向我們看到就是說因為很多人他不願意在原來的這個地方待他希望到中央單位去所以我們導致說我們地方政府人員的人員他常常很多的人他心不在地方政府他一直想往上爬那為什麼會這些造成說這些公務人員一直想往中央跑的一個原因"},{"start":459.998,"end":479.452,"text":"中央機關職等比較高啦,我想公務員,優秀公務員追逐生前這個也很自然。是,所以秘書長你也提到問題的核心啊,地方政府的職等比較低嘛,一樣的職務的話,一樣工作嘛,但是到中央做一樣的工作,他的職等會比較高,所以你有沒有思索?"},{"start":480.546,"end":508.833,"text":"如何來讓我們地方政府人員的值等能夠跟中央的值等的落差不要造成太大的落差要如何來調整有沒有思考過各位報告我們其實這幾年在地方的某一些值等上面如果實務上有需求全序部的考量都會比較放寬那考試院也都支持能夠盡量讓地方有留才的工具比如說以新北來講"},{"start":509.773,"end":511.194,"text":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":533.49,"end":551.605,"text":"但是我想地方政府還是需要留才你剛才也提到那如何讓我們國家的人才庫能夠穩定啊離職率不要說我一直想往心不在這個原單位啊如何的來去留住他們的心但我們一直該跟你討論就是有關職等的問題嘛"},{"start":552.586,"end":580.728,"text":"所以我是建議我們是不是就我們地方政府人員值等如何來提升他們的值等來克服我們存在已久的值等落差的問題這方面是不是可以在這個我一個月內提出書面報告給我可不可以我們把目前已經處理完了跟正在討論中的來跟委員做一個說明好我再請教我們剛才大家一直提到說數位治理數位值能的問題"},{"start":582.554,"end":607.627,"text":"當然我想我們考試院保訓會有一個叫做一等公務員學習平台本席在意的是一個數位落差的問題雖然有這個學習平台也就是說對於資歷比較深的公務人員對於數位化的熟悉度跟比較親近的公務人員是有差異的這個您贊成嗎?秘書長"},{"start":611.732,"end":615.161,"text":"有這樣的差異嗎?所以針對這個問題我們有如何解決方案了沒有?"},{"start":622.633,"end":648.391,"text":"現在目前在員公務機關的這些資深的公務人員他們的數位治理能力跟新進的是有落差你如何的來培訓他們這個在職訓練的部分這個其實比較屬於人事總署的訓練業務不過其實各機關都會重視這個問題像我們自己考試院內部我們也都會一直在開放比如現在AI這絕對是未來工具性的革命"},{"start":649.372,"end":649.412,"text":"聖龍介委員"},{"start":664.811,"end":672.876,"text":"資通人員的考用問題來就教你,剛才你也回答一個重點就是說在113年我們修正公務人員高考三等考試就在113年我們就會針對這個資通安全類科我們開始來這個考用"},{"start":682.438,"end":706.171,"text":"但是我現在前幾天我也問那個人事總長有關於說我們的資安長我們行政院各機關各部會的資安長目前都是由非專業的副所長來兼任所以現階段我們要如何實際增強政府人員的數位職能以及數位治理能力就很重要"},{"start":707.29,"end":724.075,"text":"所以我想請教秘書長這部分你未來要如何來精進這些政府機關相關就是我們剛才一直提到的這些資深的人員的數位職能及他的數位治理能力尤其治安長"},{"start":725.936,"end":741.117,"text":"資安長的部分他為什麼現在這個都是由高階的副首長來兼任最主要是因為他必須要能夠協調各機關各單位但是他會有專業的同仁做他的幕僚"},{"start":742.279,"end":757.933,"text":"這我了解,但是秘書長我回到我剛才的建議我是建議無論如何請保訓會要好好的研議如何解決學術公務員工作條件上的各項需求尤其現在面對我們資安"},{"start":758.954,"end":759.094,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":774.286,"end":774.907,"text":"謝謝林委員、秘書長及郝部長"}]}},{"id":"149766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903c76f884008139d5c14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6130a6e79d11c52415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"10:28:16 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現在部長我打岔一下部長我打岔一下就是說你假如說說今天來EO報告已經有期程"},{"start":104.147,"end":126.414,"text":"那我可能還可以接受可是這6年來我看部長也已經認滿6年了這個是一個非常長壽的部長可是對於跟勞工這麼息息相關影響這麼重大的一個政策一直停留在"},{"start":128.234,"end":136.29,"text":"在準備跟收集意見達到共識這個階段本席真的沒有辦法接受"},{"start":137.871,"end":165.084,"text":"謝謝委員因為這部分的確是不容易因為勞工的人口數實在是太多每個產業勞工職業勞工的意見都不同關心的點都不同所以這個部分我也認為說這個其實應該要更我曾經在委員會跟部長討論過我覺得任何一項改革都不可能有共識"},{"start":166.547,"end":186.378,"text":"吼都不可能有共識那我也知道欸勞工的的年齡改革為什麼困難就是因為他原本的的可以領到的給付就少那欸廣大的勞工也沒的受薪階級也沒有因為台灣的經濟成長的"},{"start":190.575,"end":212.078,"text":"他的薪資等比例的增加所以要增加保費也有一定的阻力那要延後退可能會引發很大的風波所以我知道困難在哪裡可是也正因為困難所以才"},{"start":214.275,"end":240.851,"text":"選民給民進黨機會就是要民進黨面對困難我還記得我們在從事軍功校年改的時候整個民進黨黨團大概受影響最大的就是我因為我澎湖的軍功校比例太高了可是我還是帶著鋼盔挺過了年改"},{"start":242.479,"end":263.187,"text":"我也已經又當選兩屆了就是說應該像蔡英文總統講的就是應該要改革的就是必須要改革必須要想到一套方案出來讓退休的不恐懼讓正在繳保費的喜難這個是我們的責任"},{"start":268.891,"end":296.103,"text":"那我看這幾年就是提撥成為改革唯一的選項那這個本席也不反對甚至於我也已經提案把政府負擔最終的責任入法為什麼我這麼重視這件事情就是我講的這必須要讓勞動者有一個安定的心情"},{"start":297.943,"end":315.65,"text":"欸讓他知道知道任何人執政都不會放棄這一千多萬的老公朋友這一千多萬對台灣經濟有卓著貢獻的老公我我我"},{"start":317.702,"end":342.232,"text":"我覺得我們必須要去面對現在就是這樣子就我剛才講的我知道改革的困難為什麼呢因為不要說減少給付就以目前的給付來看我們目前在請領勞工給付的人數大概有174萬平均每個月"},{"start":346.853,"end":367.741,"text":"領到的是18000多18000多可是最低台灣的最低生活費以台北市來講就已經高達19000多其台北市以外的地方平均值也已經將近到達15000"},{"start":369.554,"end":383.083,"text":"那他現在領這樣子已經快要快要未達在臺北市已經未達未達最低生活費的標準了現在萬一再減少幾副怎麼辦"},{"start":385.166,"end":413.196,"text":"對,各位報告但是我們其實臺灣的產業勞工來看他其實他退休包括兩個一個就勞保另外一個就勞退這兩個加起來那當然還有一些健保啦長照現在是照顧我們的退休的人員健保跟長照是另外一回事啦我們就聚焦在勞工的部分就勞保跟勞退可是呢勞退的比例呢就是太低了"},{"start":414.176,"end":439.434,"text":"字體的部分太低了。字體比較低,但是固體拿到700多萬喔。大概是這樣子啦。前體體角數大概在106年的時候大概是14%多啦。那現在呢?就是到字體的部分。"},{"start":441.823,"end":464.872,"text":"我們到去年年底是14.17%人數是106萬所以就是像部長講的沒有錯勞工的退休的保障我們的設計是架構在勞保跟勞退可是問題是勞退本身有一個現象就這14點幾%"},{"start":467.352,"end":493.67,"text":"他你你你仔細去看新知所得越高的越願意自提配合自提的部分那越低的呢因為他的所得本來就低所以他要再要再提出6%他可能有他的困難度不過我也還有一個固體6%固體6%是僱主一定要提撥的對我知道我知道那6%就是"},{"start":495.811,"end":497.858,"text":"響鈴"},{"start":498.598,"end":525.693,"text":"那6%呢是大家都有我現在講的是6加6特別是以薪資低的勞工來看6加6才足以保障他的退休生活那因為他假如說本來就低薪他可以領的勞保給付本來就低"},{"start":527.011,"end":544.592,"text":"然後呢他又因為職涯的過程生活的所需教養子女孝敬父母所以他可能要自提這六趴對他來講就馬上面臨生活的困頓"},{"start":547.503,"end":569.045,"text":"部長你懂我的意思嗎?我知道我知道不過當然啦如果是低薪的齁可能多數都是低薪的低薪的字題很少啦對我們現在大概有統計啦齁大概平均啦齁報告委員平均我們那個月投保薪資大概就是平均大概3萬7啦齁如果以3萬7來看喔他的勞保"},{"start":570.564,"end":583.476,"text":"應照按照現在限制他大概是領1萬7左右然後再如果他的再加上勞退就是固體只算固體不算自體啦齁大概1萬所以這個加起來勞保加勞退大概有27700"},{"start":585.837,"end":610.872,"text":"就是像一個退休勞工以平均的月頭保薪資來看如果是37000平均大概我們抓大概37000這樣領起來有27000多對啊這種平均值就是這種平均值就是比較看不到看不到真正弱勢的啦保障弱勢呢是民進黨邁向指正最重要的一個一個一個"},{"start":611.732,"end":637.619,"text":"對對對"},{"start":638.319,"end":649.526,"text":"我也知道很困難可是我常說不困難的事情怎麼輪得到我們做呢那不然我最後問一個問題就是"},{"start":652.844,"end":667.699,"text":"本席已經提出來政府擔負最終的支付責任的保證那這樣子的提案勞動部這邊的立場會支持嗎我們支持好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀文委員"}]}},{"id":"149765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690359e446cc9cc215c933e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6e9e66fec18c7355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：水利法第七十八條河川區域內，沒有提到不得私有，沒有規定土地不得私有；第七十八條之一一樣沒有規定不得私有；水利法第七十八條之二也沒有規定不得私有；水利法第八十二條對於「水道治理計畫線或用地範圍線內之土地」，也沒有規定不得私有；水利法只有第八十三條有規定，「尋常洪水位行水區域之土地，……，其原為公有者，不得移轉為私有」，已為私有者可以徵收，只有水利法第八十三條規定，尋常洪水位不得私有，這個讓部長瞭解一下。最靠近河流的就是水利法第八十三條的尋常洪水位行水區域，然後未來要蓋堤防的地方要用水利法第八十二條的治理線及用地範圍線，然後最外面的就是河川區域線。","土地法第十四條第一項第三款，過去一直到現在，水利法第八十二條跟第七十八條之二，都是依據土地法第十四條第一項的第三款。土地法第十四條第一項的第三款對於「可通運之水道」，戴秀雄教授認為引用這個是錯誤的，因為臺灣並沒有「可通運之水道」。「可通運之水道」要能夠讓輪船可以通運，但臺灣沒有。","原住民族基本法第二十條規定，政府承認原住民族土地的權利，因為這條原基法的條文，內政部也就是土地法的主管機關，對土地法第十四條第一項各款規定，不得私有的劃定原則做了修正，在105年12月做了修正。土地法第十四條第一項各款規定不得私有土地，「但原住民申請經公產管理機關同意配合提供增、劃編原住民保留地者」可以，但是到目前為止，水利署都不願意，尤其是「已奉核定增、劃編為原住民保留地者」。讓部長瞭解增、劃編原住民保留地的核定者是誰，是行政院核定喔！行政院已經核定了，水利署依然不同意；然後「已設定耕作權、地上權或農育權之原住民保留地者」，會設定耕作權、地上權的也就是經過行政院核定的，核定之後，這塊土地核定為原住民保留地，然後才設定耕作權、地上權。都已經設定耕作權、地上權了水利署到現在都還是不願意，所以這個部分，這裡面已經「應排除劃入不得私有土地範圍」，這不是我規定的而是內政部，針對土地法第十四條所定的劃定原則，所以這個要請部長作決定，因為部長是學法律的，水利署不是學法律的，他們只考慮到工程啦！他們考量的是工程，想替人民省錢啦！為什麼呢？這個106年8月1號水利署的公文，我們看下面的最後那兩句話「依『未來治理所需之範圍』認定，並依原基法規定辦理」。","我們就看到這條線，現在的狀況，治理線有的地方還沒有蓋堤防，所以水利署那張公文是說依未來治理所需之範圍，這個我們還可以稍微容忍一下，我跟署長講過了。但是堤防已經蓋好了，到河川區域線中間的，依法都應該增、劃編為原住民保留地，但是水利署我也不知道什麼原因，也講不出個所以然，堤防已經蓋很久了，甚至已經有耕作權了，行政院已經核定為增、劃編保留地了，部長可以嗎？依法行政啊！就依內政部，它是主管機關，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：土地法是一般法，委員也知道相關水利法的部分有更細膩的規定，像委員講的第七十八條、第八十二條、第八十三條，哪一些有沒有什麼例外的可行性，我再跟水利署討論一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，很明確的，只有水利法第八十三條，法律明定不得私有，我們絕對遵守法律，第七十八條、第八十二條都沒有說不得私有，所以戴秀雄教授或者是內政部基於土地主管機關、土地法主管機關也都認為是這樣，所以這個部分請部長……"],["王部長美花：我再跟他們詳細討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。最後也讓部長瞭解一下這個堤防都已經蓋好了，但它還是一樣，這個部分有好多例子，所以這個部分給部長做參考，包括好幾個案例都是這樣。","最後因為時間的關係，石油管理法第三十六條特別規定偏遠地區、原住民族地區及離島地區這些桶裝瓦斯的補貼，上次桶裝瓦斯的補貼已經有3、4年沒有調高了，所以這個部分也請經濟部還有能源署調高，可以嗎？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，我們有根據整個成本的情況，今年會做檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請鄭正鈐委員質詢，謝謝。等張嘉郡委員詢答完，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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camp，以這樣的方式提供給在地這些比較年輕的學生，這是指沒有僑校的地方，如果有僑校，他們可以到僑校去學習。"],["馬委員文君：我先提醒一下，因為這些內容之前也有講過、也有探討過，今天為什麼要特別再提出來？是因為委員長有提到臺美教育倡議，畢竟教育倡議是教育部的工作，僑委會最主要的設立宗旨是要照顧我們所有的僑胞，而不是做這樣的事情，所以如果是在有限的預算之下，照理說應該就我們現階段的輕重緩急，看看什麼才是主要的業務方向，這是一定要拿捏得準的。因為這整筆預算是連續性的，我先在這邊提醒，我們希望未來針對……包括現在所有的大學去海外招生、去找我們的僑生，其實也都是以東南亞為最主要的來源，包括僑委會提供的數據資料也是，它占了大部分的人數比。在這裡我們還要討論的是，在我們的業務中，因為所列管的中長期工作項目主要是僑界的青年培育計畫還有擴大培育及留用僑生計畫，這個計畫是在112年到115年，4年的時間編列了高達36億的預算，這在僑委會其實是不小的預算。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望可以看到什麼樣的成果，或是滾動式的修正，怎麼樣可以達到它的效益，還有海外華語文學習深耕計畫，因為剛剛我們有提到培育跟留用僑生計畫的部分，委員會提供給本席的資料顯示，在119年留用一般僑生還有產攜的僑生專班必須要達到4.7萬人，海青班也要達到1.3萬人。本席想請教委員長，這個目標是累進人數還是一年的留臺人數？"],["徐委員長佳青：累進的。"],["馬委員文君：所以其實它的實際成效並不像你們呈現的數字，包括……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，因為他留下來後就會持續一直留下來了，所以這個一定是每一年繼續增加上去。"],["馬委員文君：也不一定，因為你們給我們看的好像是分開的，而不是累進的人數。"],["徐委員長佳青：是累進的。"],["馬委員文君：如果是累進的，現在截至113年1月留臺工作的僑生就是2萬1,730人次，所謂的人次是什麼？留臺的人就是人，你到底是留了多少人？因為你在計算、在給資料時都是以人來計算，如果一個人在一年內在臺灣工作，可是他換了6個工作、10個工作，那你也算人次，這樣的算法是怎麼定義的？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員詢問的確實是非常到位，我們有注意到有些僑生可能在某個企業裡面，他要轉換時就變成要再申請一次，所以確實是會有這種人次上的落差，實際留下來的人是不是有到這麼多……"],["馬委員文君：所以有多少人？"],["徐委員長佳青：111年留下來的人數是5,920人，到112年留下來的人是7,133人。"],["馬委員文君：有七千多？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，有七千多。"],["馬委員文君：所以跟你們寫給大家看的兩萬一千多人相比高達3倍，這樣會讓大家……"],["徐委員長佳青：這是累進，是把每一年全部加總的。"],["馬委員文君：我們要看的……，因為你在花錢，你在統計數據時是以人為主，可是你現在要達到這個成果的數據資料是用人次，大家沒有辦法……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員……"],["馬委員文君：我們現在要特別提醒的是，他為什麼要一直換，或為什麼差別那麼大？這個也是我們應該要注意的。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["馬委員文君：而不是你現在留下來……，而且還都是累進的。"],["徐委員長佳青：不過這一套是因為配合評點制，未來評點制取消後就不會有類似這樣的狀況。"],["馬委員文君：評點制可能是有關留或離開的作法，但我們現在看的是業務的成果，因為你今天編了這樣的預算，可是你到底達到什麼樣的成果，這才是我們今天討論的重點。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們希望以後提供的業務資料報告應該要據實讓大家更清楚知道狀況，因為包括剛剛很多委員提問的狀況，委員長也說明得非常清楚，可是你們在業務報告上面根本沒有呈現，我們在業務報告上看到的好像都是說我們做得非常好、成果非常到位，好像可以越來越好的感覺，可是我們看到數據資料好像也不是這樣。112年的預算其實編了5億5,000萬，是留用了314人嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：其實並不是……"],["馬委員文君：是學年度還是年，314人是一年還是……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，112年也就是去年，預計留臺的學生是3,544人，其中……"],["馬委員文君：事實上你們留的就是314人啊。"],["徐委員長佳青：不只，總共是7,133人，因為他是……"],["馬委員文君：海青班是314人啊。我們現在特別提出來的，僑生專班也好、海青專班也好，或是其他你們做的紀錄，編的預算非常高，現在我們……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這個部分在呈現上可能會造成誤解，我瞭解，我們稍後再提供比較好的呈現方式。"],["馬委員文君：好。我為什麼特別舉這個例子？如果你編了5億5,000萬，你只留了314人，留用率只有6%，甚至每人平均分配到175萬……"],["徐委員長佳青：那真的太少了。"],["馬委員文君：這個還是以年來算哦！所以如果是學年度，它的比例還是偏高，所以我們現在要很清楚地知道，編了這麼多預算……，它的成果必須要到9年之後才知道，現在所有在座的各位，我都不相信也不知道誰能夠為這個政策負責。所以在這個過程中，你給我們的資料，包括……"],["徐委員長佳青：我跟委員報告，留用的314人代表是7年前入學的，所以是要看105年的入學人數，那時入學人數沒那麼高。"],["馬委員文君：沒有關係，因為時間的關係……，在105年沒有那麼高，可是你留用的人數還是很低。我現在先拿一個學士以上大學入學人數，你們的數據資料有達標甚至比較高的，在111年時是6,060人，112年本來預計目標數是人數必須要再增加12.5%，可是卻減少了，只有五千多人。所以在達標的數字最好的情況之下，你們的人數還是減少，我們不知道在7年後或9年後看到的成果會像你們寫的這樣嗎？這是我希望你們可以務實地檢討的部分，因為你們的預算編了那麼高，應該怎麼樣運用或是採取什麼樣的修正作法，希望會後再提供一個比較深入的資料，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝馬委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員發言。","接下來由牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.41909375000000004,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.39784375,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.19471875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.61159375,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.00721875,"end":71.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.86034375000001,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.67096875000001,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.86909375000002,"end":199.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.13346875000002,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.22909375,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.35471875000002,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.78784375000004,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.91346875,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.34596875,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.71659375,"end":325.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.47784375000003,"end":335.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.45534375,"end":335.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.47221875,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.31596875,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.04159375,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.89284375,"end":350.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.94346875,"end":344.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.98471875,"end":393.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.74346875000003,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.89096875,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.85971875,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.13471875000005,"end":416.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.74846875000003,"end":431.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.89596875,"end":431.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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現的這樣子的一個數字嘛對不對因為他留下來以後他就會持續一直留下來了所以這個一定是每一年繼續增加上去也不一定因為你們給我們看的好像是分開的而不是累進的人數"},{"start":356.07,"end":360.993,"text":"所以就這樣子如果是累進的那我們現在截至113年1月留台工作的僑生是21730人次就是21730人次所謂的人次是什麼你留台的人就是人因為你到底是留了多少人因為我們是你在計算在給資料的時候都是以人計算那人次如果一個人"},{"start":383.447,"end":403.452,"text":"他在一年內在臺灣工作可是他換了6個工作10個工作那你也算人次那這樣子的一個算法他是怎麼定義的委員詢問的確實是非常到位我們有注意到就是說有些僑生因為他可能在某個工作的企業裡面那他要轉換的時候"},{"start":405.792,"end":406.973,"text":"目前111年留下來的人數是5920人那到112年留下來的人是7133人"},{"start":430.982,"end":434.203,"text":"有7000多所以其實在這裡跟你們寫給大家看的兩萬一千多這高達三倍這個是累計是把每一年全部加總的我們要看的因為你在花錢你在"},{"start":446.427,"end":446.507,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":470.64,"end":473.163,"text":"不過這套是因為配合這個評點制未來如果評點制這個取消以後就不會有類似這樣的狀況評點制是一個可能在留或離開這樣子的一個做法可是我們現在說的是我們看的是業務的成果"},{"start":489.244,"end":489.604,"text":"委員長說明的非常清楚"},{"start":508.933,"end":509.093,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":535.623,"end":540.768,"text":"是學年度還是年?314人是一年還是?跟委員報告那112年就是去年那我們預計是留台的學生是3544人那其中事實上你們留的就是314人"},{"start":562.373,"end":563.196,"text":"總共是7133人還欠314人阿"},{"start":568.696,"end":580.782,"text":"現在我們現在特別提出來的就僑生專班也好海青專班也好或者你其他的你們做的這樣子的一個記錄編的預算非常高現在我們委員這個呈現上可能會造成誤解我瞭解那我們稍後把這個比較好的呈現方式再提供你為什麼特別舉這個例子如果你編了5億5千萬你只留了314人留用率只有6%甚至平均每人分配到175萬"},{"start":595.529,"end":595.629,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":615.831,"end":617.552,"text":"我跟委員報告那個314年留用的他是代表他是7年前入學的所以他是105年的時候要看那時候的入學人數那時候入學人數沒有那麼高沒有關係"},{"start":633.604,"end":653.432,"text":"我們現在因為時間的關係在105年沒有那麼高可是你留用的人數還是很低所以我現在先拿一個學士以上這個大學入學人數你們的數據資料裡面有達標的甚至比較高的可是他在111年的時候他是6000"},{"start":655.629,"end":655.669,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":672.046,"end":672.106,"text":"馬文君"}]}},{"id":"149763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903f1ea331db3ba37e8b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6b87984df7be5c61d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:21:12 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10:32:55","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":703,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:32:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:21:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時21分）謝謝召委，我請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長好。主計長，這幾年原物料上漲，大家都知道通膨的狀況也越來越嚴重，所以我們對軍公教人員也經歷了3次調薪，在過去7年分別由107年的3%、111年的4%、還有到今年的4%。我先感謝主計長、大家體恤到52萬軍公教人員的辛勞，幫公務員加薪，這個加薪當然也會帶動民間企業後續加薪至少2.4%到2.6%之間左右，這是我們期待的。我想就這個部分來肯定主計長，但是主計長，這個加薪固然對全國民間也好、軍公教也好是好事，不過相對地我們也要考量到地方財源的負擔。我肯定這件事情，但是地方的財源負擔一定會有的，你同意我這樣的說法吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，同意。我們有一個方式，就是如果我們的政策宣布是在地方政府預算還沒有送到議會的時候，第一年中央政府會協助，以後就是由他們編到預算裡面去，我們一直採用這個措施。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，狀況是這樣子，從107年到現在，我們至少調幅11%左右，就像您剛才講的，譬如今年我們打算加薪4%，這個立即就會增加臺北市22億，要追加這些預算、要找出這些錢出來，所以鄭文燦副院長才會講中央對地方挹注也會考慮到加薪這一塊。您剛才講說如果預算還沒送到議會，如果在之後的話，你們就會補足全部？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我知道你會考量到你突然宣布的話，錢不知道從哪裡來，所以其實我關注的是，因為過去這幾年我們看到，你看一下我的圖表，107年加薪的幅度是3%，你們補助了5,000萬；111年21億，你們100%補助；113年你們補助50%。所以對地方來說，它當然希望它是一個制度化的處理或者至少可以預期。大家都肯定這件事情，但是每個縣市的財源狀況不一致，我當然不敢講可不可以全部都由你們來補助，地方很多縣市首長會覺得這是中央請客、地方買單，但我不願意這樣子講，不過如果我們可以有一個制度性的討論，我覺得對地方一下子要找這個財源，即便如果是議會還沒審到預算，你會補助全年，但是我覺得如果有機會做制度化的處理，譬如第一年由中央全部來負擔，第二年、第三年他們再想辦法去籌措預算來處理，這會不會是一個更好的方式？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個方向可以……委員所講的可以討論。我必須說明一下，調薪的政策是人事總處主管的，它是業務主管單位。您剛才講的113年我們補助一半，是因為我們的政策在他們編預算送到立法院之前就宣布，所以調50%是額外給它的，本來按照制度都不會給的，但是我們額外給它，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，所以我今天才跟你討論我們可不可以制度化的處理，以後第一年都由中央來負擔？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個要討論，因為按照地方制度法，它本來就是地方自治應該負擔的經費，我們可以討論，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，所以我今天有個臨時提案，我希望這個事情可以做制度化的處理。當然，我再次強調，我們肯定對軍公教調薪，因為原物料上漲、通膨的問題，所以我們都認為要加薪，對軍公教加薪這件事情我們都給予肯定，但地方、各縣市的財源狀況不一樣，我剛才已經舉例了，所以如果第一年有機會由中央來負擔全部，第二年、第三年後面再由地方完全負擔，我覺得對地方的財政、找錢也好、各方面，才不會影響到地方原來的市政推動。如果可以的話，我希望主計長可以朝向這個方式進行，才不會對地方的財政造成立即性的衝擊。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對財政情況不好的，我們事實上是全補、全部補助。"],["李委員彥秀：不要啦，主計長，我覺得不要說財政好不好，對地方來說，本來每個縣市都有既定的預算、既定的市政要推動。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，它可以預測，它比較容易……"],["李委員彥秀：你臨時12月30日宣布，1月1日議會才審完，它哪裡臨時來找錢？所以我覺得還是制度化地處理這件事情……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我同意制度化……"],["李委員彥秀：我希望主計長來研議這件事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：我也希望人總的薪資政策能夠提早宣布，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，這個也是中央的問題，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：是，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，第二件事情，我關注到前兩天陳院長在回答柯志恩委員的時候講到：股票上2萬點，你開不開心？主計長，股票上兩萬點，你開不開心？"],["朱主計長澤民：我個人一點都不開心，因為我沒有股票。"],["李委員彥秀：對呀！我就查到你的財產申報裡面，你的股票才5,560塊啊！所以……"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是已經沒有上市……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！所以院長搞錯了啦！股票上2萬點，是少數人開心，因為以臺灣的股市來說，將近44%是外資，我們的護國神山台積電有七成也是外資，所以所有的股票好當然是好事，經濟預期也會比較好，但是這個利多並不是全民共享的利多。","主計長，我要給你看幾個數字。依照我們的GDP來說，從2012年到2021年我們的經濟成長率6.53%，蔡英文講是二十年來最好的時刻；但是在我們的GDP占比中，我們受僱人員的報酬從2012年的45.8%降到2021年的43%，是歷年來最低。這個數字我相信你非常清楚，代表的意義是臺灣的經濟紅利其實資方享受到，勞工沒有享受到，這是第一點；第二個代表的意義是，臺灣產業結構出現了很大的問題，少數贏者圈的收入很高，但是大多數的民眾沒有享受到經濟的利益。再來，我想你非常清楚，這幾年我們的貧富差距創下12年的新高；過去這3年即便有加薪，我們的實質經常性薪資的調幅全部都被通膨吃掉了；我們看到近5年的實質總薪資是倒退的，而且是7年來首度的負成長。","主計長，我看到你在去年10月26日講過一句話：貧富差距是過去十年的新高，所得分配不均，政府的責任最大。你現在還是同意這句話嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，這個有一點斷章取義。我是說所得分配不均，政府就要來做所得分配的工作，所以民間也有責任……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我們不要玩文字遊戲。那我這樣講，政府有責任去處理貧富所得分配不均的問題，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：對……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我要講的是，蔡英文不要老拿經濟是二十年來最好、6.53%來志得意滿。我們股票上2萬點，你回去也應該跟院長講，股票2萬點就只有少數人開心、外資開心啦！以我來說，以你來說，我們都沒有玩股票的人，我們都不開心，你要告訴他這件事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：我怕大家誤解，我個人不開心，可是我管國家的財政很開心，因為證券交易稅增加，謝謝，而且……"],["李委員彥秀：但是，主計長，那我就要糾正你，稅收增加很開心，但是人民的經濟、人民生活過得好不好，才是我們身為政府的最大責任，你同意這句話嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：當然。"],["李委員彥秀：大多數的人民過得好不好，才是政府最重要的責任，所以主計長，你應該對於明年的經濟有所預測，包括我剛剛講的，我們的實質薪資明年到底會不會再往上調？會不會變成由負轉正，或我們的總薪資有沒有機會從負轉正？"],["朱主計長澤民：那要看CPI的成長率，他們名目的……"],["李委員彥秀：你應該都要預期啊！你是主計長啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個名目薪資一定會成長，那要看CPI的上漲，CPI的上漲有時候會有一些不確定因素……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道啦，但是你每一年都會預測，那你能不能預測明年？你評估、預測明年啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我不曉得相關……"],["李委員彥秀：包括我們的經常性薪資，包括明年的總薪資有沒有機會由負轉正？你不敢講？"],["朱主計長澤民：我只能說有50%的機會。"],["李委員彥秀：50%喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以人民要繼續過苦日子就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：另外50%也可能不上漲，因為我們不曉得……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你這個50、50是他們猜的，還是真的？還是你是有經過預測的？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有預測，我們沒有預測薪資的一個成長，因為……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，因為下個月電價還要漲，電價要漲，對於產業界獲利的分配，還有對於一般的民眾，臺灣的民眾生活影響衝擊也非常大，我希望你們有去做評估，你們應該有吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們主計總處沒有，經濟部有沒有我不曉得。"],["李委員彥秀：這個CPI因為你明年也會做預測，你應該是……"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我不曉得經濟部的方案是……"],["李委員彥秀：財政三長，主計長、財政部部長、經濟部部長應該對這個有所評估。主計長，我的時間到了，我覺得這個都是連動性的問題。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確是。"],["李委員彥秀：明年人民生活過得好不好，是仰賴我們的主計長、經濟部部長、財政部部長，我覺得對於後續電價調整的影響、財富的分配狀況，連動的部分我覺得你們都一定要更仔細地評估，我也希望你回去告訴陳建仁院長，不要老活在股市2萬點的這個夢幻裡面，不要贏了指數失了民心。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["主席：等一下黃珊珊委員發言完畢，我們就休息5分鐘。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.95471875,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.38034375,"end":47.314718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.78721875,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.40221875,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.78846875,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.20784375000001,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.68221875,"end":115.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.13034375000001,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.57721875000001,"end":162.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.09409375,"end":190.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.86596875,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.68471875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.87346875,"end":200.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.75909375,"end":224.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.46409375000002,"end":226.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.89846875,"end":227.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.04596875000001,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.88971875000001,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.80471875,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.22971875000002,"end":242.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.75659375,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.11909375000002,"end":254.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.70846875,"end":300.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.31346875,"end":298.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.71409375,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.49346875000003,"end":315.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.67784375,"end":319.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.59284375000004,"end":332.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.68409375000005,"end":331.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.26596875,"end":336.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.28284375000004,"end":332.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.27784375000005,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.96971875,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.64471875000004,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.77971875000003,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.97784375000003,"end":340.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.02846875,"end":344.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.07909375,"end":341.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.36534375,"end":345.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.13721875000005,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.92971875,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.54971875,"end":354.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.79409375,"end":356.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.34659375,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.94096875,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.03721875,"end":371.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.02784375000005,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.97284375000004,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.72971875,"end":389.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.33284375000005,"end":429.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.28034375000004,"end":431.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.28409375,"end":473.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.30284375,"end":488.10659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.81534375,"end":488.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.83221875000004,"end":488.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.98409375000006,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.03471875,"end":501.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.93596875000003,"end":507.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.06159375000004,"end":507.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.39034375000006,"end":513.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.70221875000004,"end":512.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9253437500001,"end":535.93034375},{"speaker":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.183,"end":431.355,"text":"降到我們現在2021��二零二一年的四十三趴是歷年來最低這個數字我相信數字你非常清楚代表的意義是臺灣的經濟紅利其實勞工沒有享受到"},{"start":432.555,"end":455.501,"text":"第一點資方享受到勞工沒有享受到第二個代表的意義是臺灣產業結構出現了很大的問題我們少數贏者圈的收入很高但是大多數的民眾沒有享受到經濟的利益然後再下來我想你非常清楚這幾年我們貧富差距造成12年來的新高然後我們這幾年我們的實質經常"},{"start":457.402,"end":473.12,"text":"實質經常性的薪資過去這3年都被即便有加薪全部這3年都被吞捧吃掉了再來下一張我們看到我們近5年實質種薪資是倒退的而且是7年來首度的負成長"},{"start":474.741,"end":480.743,"text":"主計長我也看到齁其實你有講你在去年的10月26號齁你講過一句話貧富差距是過去10年的新高所得分配不均政府的責任最大你現在還是同意這句話嗎跟那個委員報告這個有點斷章起義啦我都所得分配不均政府就要來"},{"start":501.252,"end":513.04,"text":"主計長我們不要玩文字遊戲政府有最大的我這樣講政府有責任去處理分配貧富分配不足的問題好不好所以"},{"start":514.02,"end":542.527,"text":"所以我要講的說蔡英文不要老拿經濟20年來最好6.53來自得滿意我們股票上兩萬點你回去你也應該跟院長講說兩萬點齁這時候少數人開心外資開心啦以我來說以你來說我們都沒有玩股票的人我們都不開心你要告訴他這件事情我要怕大家誤解我個人不開心可是我管國家的財政很開心因為證券交易稅增加對不對謝謝"},{"start":544.188,"end":555.517,"text":"但是主事長那我就要糾正你稅收增加很開心但是人民的經濟人民生活過得好不好才是我們身為政府的最大責任"},{"start":556.598,"end":584.105,"text":"你同意這句話嗎當然所有大多數的人民過得好不好才是政府最重要的責任所以主計長你應該對於明年的經濟有所預測包括我剛剛講的人民我們實質薪資明年到底會不會再往上跳會不會變成有負轉正或我們總薪資有沒有機會重負轉正我們是說可以那要看那個CPI的成長率阿你都應該要預期阿你是主計長阿對"},{"start":585.945,"end":609.811,"text":"那個明目薪資一定會成長那要看那個CPI的一個上漲CPI的上漲有時候會有一些不確定因素我知道啦但是你每一年都會預測那你能不能預測明年你評估預測明年因為我不曉得包括我們的經常薪資包括明年的總薪資有沒有機會有負轉勝你不敢講我只能說有50%的機會"},{"start":612.458,"end":612.938,"text":"朱主計長,你這個是．﹖"},{"start":643.018,"end":655.725,"text":"我希望你們有去做評估。你們應該有吧?我主計總處沒有。經濟部有沒有,我不曉得。因為CPI明年你應該是財政三長、主計長、財政部部長、經濟部部長應該對這個有所評估。主計長我的時間到了。我覺得這個都是聯動性的問題。明年人民生活過得好不好?"},{"start":668.251,"end":668.271,"text":"謝謝謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":698.191,"end":702.405,"text":"那我們等一下現場委員請等一下黃珊珊委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e0c85a70a10b903b3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0154244ba07af355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:18:47 - 10:29:25","影片長度":"00:10:38","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":638,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:29:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:18:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時18分）請秘書長。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長好。你跟賴總統共事過多久？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在臺南市政府大概將近3年，在總統府時間比較久。"],["謝委員龍介：總統府也不是他當主管，我是問你臺南市，3年你對他應該滿瞭解的，在個性上，他也有一些優點，對於制度，我的認定是他還算蠻尊重制度，是不是這樣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["謝委員龍介：剛剛貴院的報告就提到，現在公務人員考的人很少，看你們的報告這10年來等於降了56%。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我剛剛有補充說明，那個是用最高峰期來比較。"],["謝委員龍介：當然也不是只有我們啦，日本跟韓國也是這樣。"],["劉秘書長建忻：的確是。"],["謝委員龍介：日本就提到要準備提出無條件週休3日鼓勵大家來報考，是這樣嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有這樣的一個……"],["謝委員龍介：尤其是比較專業的，譬如土木的、建築的、電機的，你們的考試缺差不多都沒人要來了。"],["劉秘書長建忻：還是有啦，只是有時候會出現不足額的現象。"],["謝委員龍介：幾乎零，每次都欠缺那些啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：它是有不足額。"],["謝委員龍介：他薪資年薪大概70、80萬，可是我現在講外面最低的，對這些人才最低的薪資，最少年薪140萬到150萬，好一點的，水平高一點點的，差不多200萬，你看誰要來考？這是其中一個原因啦，不來考最主要還有一個原因，就是我不用考就可以去上班了，對不對？10年前本院就有做過決議，機關約聘不得超過5%嘛，你們知道嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，有這個限制。"],["謝委員龍介：所以那時候立法院還算不錯，要求各機關的時候立法院本身就是到期就不續聘，立法院有做到喔！可是你們有做到嗎？沒有啊！你看數位部，你不要看我！你們有認同數位部的做法嗎？我剛剛問你，就是依你跟賴清德共事過及對他的理解，他會同意現在數位部這種做法嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，各組織會不會超過5%的約聘人員，有時候組織法上會有特別的規定，數位部或金融機構、文化機構，都有這樣的規定。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦，它有比較離譜啊！九百多個！"],["劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，他們也找不了那麼多人，現實上並沒有用到這麼多。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦，整個裝在你的口袋裡面，九百七十幾個缺它準備聘用幾個？這不用考試呢！"],["劉秘書長建忻：它組織法裡面，我記得每一個機關100個，如果數位部的話。"],["謝委員龍介：對啊！那有幾個機關？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其他機關，因為我記得在科技或是文化部、金融機構裡面，有的幾十個不同……立法院也有啦，也有相關規定。"],["謝委員龍介：然後它還要持續從民間徵才？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["謝委員龍介：這講到考試制度，從民間徵才為什麼不透過考選來？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有，我們今年有開辦資安的類科，從今年開始，我們也注意到大家很關心這個問題，所以我們跟數位部一起來研究，然後在今年的高考開始，我們增加了資安類科。"],["謝委員龍介：數位部現在用的這一些，你們是今年開辦，什麼時候考？"],["劉秘書長建忻：今年7月份高普考。"],["謝委員龍介：我拜託你追蹤一下啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["謝委員龍介：就現在數位部已經聘用的這些人，有多少人去考？最後有多少人通過了？這個資料，考試結束後你們要給我，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：您說的是他們今年有沒有來考的狀況，是不是？"],["謝委員龍介：因為他已經聘用……"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，瞭解。"],["謝委員龍介：所有考的人，我要你報考的這些資料，就是說我們立法院有必要去做人事任用的追蹤啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["謝委員龍介：因為你們不方便啦！我幫你們做事情你們知道嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：跟委員報告，因為他們的報考資料不會呈現他們在數位部工作，所以未來……"],["謝委員龍介：不用，你將報考人的那些資料給我就可以比對，我們來比對啊！"],["許部長舒翔：除非數位部這邊願意提供名單跟我們來做比對。"],["謝委員龍介：我們可以來比對啊！因為它裡面請了什麼人，我可以跟他要啊，對不對？我跟你說這是「紅龜包豆餡」─偷渡啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員剛剛講的有……"],["謝委員龍介：偷渡這種的要幹嘛？所以為什麼賴清德會找人點名他最不適任？第一個要甩丟掉的人就是他，你不知道嗎？你不要跟他太靠近我跟你說，真的啦！你會被他害到啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，您剛剛講一個問題很重要、很關鍵，其實他們最大的問題可能不是考不考，而是因為薪資跟民間的落差真的很大，所以考進來或約聘僱的人才有留不住的問題。"],["謝委員龍介：問題是，相對剝奪感就出來了嘛！因為他不用考試，錢領的比我們這裡考試的還要多，你聽得懂嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，所以我們也希望來解決這個問題啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你是考試院呢！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，所以我們就積極來推動資安類科。"],["謝委員龍介：你應該要比我還憤慨才對啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為它組織法裡面的規定是立法院立法，這我們必須尊重。"],["謝委員龍介：這麼多公務人員，大家都是經過考選，大家是拼命考上的，領的錢比他們進去的還少，連他們的七成都不到！不是啦，我跟你說，這不服啦！公務人員如果「起叛」，這個國家就倒了，對不對？我們的文官制度在亞洲可算是數一數二，我是捨不得你們讓一個部會把你們搞得整個都亂了調，這不好啦！","我要請教一下公務人員的退休，按照CPI這樣調整，你覺得跟勞工這些團體能不能一致啊？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請周部長來回答？"],["謝委員龍介：包括老年給付，對比起來，我們可以跟他們一致嗎？在條件跟辦法方面。"],["周部長志宏：我們的規定，基本上在公保的部分跟勞保比較，可能勞保稍微多一點，但是就退休……"],["謝委員龍介：能不能一致啦？有辦法做到這樣嗎？"],["周部長志宏：我們儘量讓公務人員的這些退撫制度不要比勞工差，基本上要有……"],["謝委員龍介：我知道儘量啊，那你要怎麼努力啊？"],["周部長志宏：我們現在建構的制度，就退休的部分，其實不見得比勞工差啦，目前只有公保年金給付或者是公保一次退的老年給付，基本上給付率會稍微比勞保低一點，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：能不能做到一樣？"],["周部長志宏：一樣不見得好啦！因為勞保之所以窟窿那麼大，也是因為它給付率比較高啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你對政府的財政這麼體諒，但公務人員很慘欸！像你當部長，你說這些公務人員會心寒耶！"],["周部長志宏：我們會儘量爭取公務人員的待遇，尤其是退休制度的部分，現在因為已經實施新制了……"],["謝委員龍介：公務人員為國家打拼一輩子，退休之後給付能不能跟勞工一樣？差了差不多百分之一、二而已耶！"],["周部長志宏：我們退休給與每4年或是 CPI達到正負5%的時候會做調整，而且今年也已經做調整了。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道啦！你今年調整的4%就差不多都被通膨吃光了，這哪有什麼，還少1%，對不對？"],["周部長志宏：因為如果是隨 CPI要看適用的對象，因為這一次適用對象是112年12月31日以前退休都適用，所以不能照CPI啦！"],["謝委員龍介：好啦，沒關係，所有的公務人員都有這種期待啦，退休的家庭……政府是這樣啦，要有一個態度。秘書長，就是不要把大家搞到均貧，要把壞的拉起來讓大家都均富。勞工辛苦沒錯，但不能把公務人員打到跟勞工一樣辛苦，不是這樣啦，要把勞工拉起來讓大家均富，不要搞到大家都均貧，要有這個概念，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝秘書長及部長。","接下來有請林委員思銘質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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了解 好所有考的 我要你報考這個資料就是說"},{"start":342.698,"end":363.503,"text":"我們立法院有必要去做這種人事任用的追蹤啦因為你們沒方便啦我不替你們做事情你知道嗎跟委員報告因為他們的報告資料不會呈現他們在蘇衛部工作因為你幫報告的人主要我就可以比對我們比對啊我們可以比對啊因為他裡面請什麼人我可以幫忙啊對不對"},{"start":372.045,"end":394.219,"text":"我告訴你這叫紅骨寶刀啦頭刀喔 頭刀這種的說什麼所以為什麼賴清德會找人點名他最不適任套一個要跟海特教的就是他 你不知道嗎你不知道他是誰最壞我告訴你真的啦 我問 你的姓海德啦"},{"start":397.121,"end":414.359,"text":"其實您剛剛講一個問題很重要很關鍵啦就是說其實真的是他們最大的問題可能不是考不考而是因為薪資跟民間的落差真的很大所以問題相對剝奪感的出來了嗎?因為沒有科技 比我們這裡的科技還要多你聽得懂嗎?是"},{"start":416.365,"end":436.899,"text":"所以我們也希望能解決這個問題那你是考試院呢?是,所以我們就積極來推動你應該比我比較分開、比較對勒因為這個,他的組織法裡面的規定是立法院立法啦這麼多公務人員,大家都是經過考選,大家都拚到出來你還要是比他們利益比較好,不跟他們的妻子不是啦,這,這我要說,這不合格"},{"start":443.653,"end":460.428,"text":"公務人員起盤就對了,這個國家就對了我們的文官制度在亞洲可算是屬一屬二我不是不敢跟你們說,給一個補費把我們弄得整個都亂經了,這不好那我要請教一下,公務人員的退休"},{"start":468.151,"end":488.98,"text":"按照CPR的調整,你覺得合理的團體能不能一致,能不能一致啊?請周部長來回答包括老年級、富家就對比起來,我們能不能一致、調整及辦法?"},{"start":491.261,"end":513.783,"text":"我們的規定基本上在公保的部分那可能跟勞保相對比較可能勞保稍微多一點但是就退休制度﹖能不能一致啦﹖有辦法做到這樣嗎我們盡量讓公務人員的這些退府制度不要比勞工差﹖你要怎麼努力啊"},{"start":516.765,"end":543.083,"text":"我們現在建構的制度其實就退休的部分不見得會比老公差目前只有公保年金給付或者是公保的一次退的那個老年給付基本上那個給付率會稍微比老保低一點能不能做到一樣一樣不見得好因為老保之所以那個窟窿那麼大也是因為他的給付率比較高"},{"start":546.485,"end":546.866,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":561.663,"end":584.647,"text":"公務人員為國家發表一四人退休後說要來扛勞工這幾乎可以扛人一樣差差不多2%而已我們退休給予會每四年或是CPI達到正負5%的時候會做調整而且今年已經做調整了我知道你今年調整的4%就差不多都去通膨吃料料去還有減1%"},{"start":588.308,"end":604.112,"text":"因為如果是隨CPI要看適用的對象因為這一次適用對象是沒關係所有的公務人員齁 都有這種機械啦那退休的家庭政府是這樣 要有一個態度啦 譬如說就說不可以把大家拉到變三隻要把肉拉起來 讓大家都變好東西"},{"start":615.802,"end":615.822,"text":"謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69038de13092e21e03dc3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a62aebae2ba5998d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:07:19 - 10:18:41","影片長度":"00:11:22","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":682,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:18:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:07:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時7分）謝謝主席。請主席請秘書長。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長，還有我們今天與會列席的各位主管，還有我們在場所有立法院的同仁，大家早安。我想先請教一下我們秘書長，對於考績法新制的問題，是最近我們公務人員熱烈討論的一個重大議題，因為考績法的新制，即我們現在所推出的一些修正草案，對於公務人員的制度來講影響很大，我不曉得在這方面秘書長有沒有留意到？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：第一、從現行的條文裡面考績是從甲、乙、丙、丁四個等次，現在改成傑出、優良、良好、待改善和汰除五個等次，比例上也從過去默契上甲等75%改成傑出加優良的部分不超過15%，其中為了獎勵特別卓越的公務人員，所增設的傑出等級，分數在90分以上，並且在修正條文第九條也明定須達到某些具體的事蹟才能夠列為傑出，而修正條文第十條也定出在那些情況之下，即條文裡面那些情況之下不得列優良以上，這個資料上都有，但照這個草案內容來看，公務人員似乎是沒有條件能夠爭取到優良的等級，而現行這個制度原本有75%的人可以獲得甲等，但是在實務的運作上有所謂輪流的說法，非資深的公務人員恐怕也很難拿到85分以上，所以在新制下人人都想擠進這15%，但似乎能預期大部分的人都會卡在良好的等級。在此我想請教秘書長，實施新制真的能夠公平地評鑑出公務人員的工作表現嗎？還是會讓認真的公務人員乾脆選擇躺平，就等著拿良好就好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，首先，我想強調，我們在修法過程其實都有一個徵詢意見的過程，現在的階段是銓敘部就目前的構想在徵詢各機關的意見，並不是公開，也還沒有推出這部法律，所以這個草案目前還在銓敘部，也沒有送到院裡面來。第二個，就委員剛剛垂詢的這一個版本內容的問題，我想出發點是因為現在的考績制度的確也有非常多的公務同仁在抱怨，剛剛講到不管怎麼分級，大家都會懷疑有沒有輪流的問題。現在很多拿乙等的同仁，每年有25%左右的同仁是拿到乙等，他的考績獎金只有半個月，事實上，非常多人認為這個部分其實也有一些評核上面的不公平，或他個人不服氣的狀況。","在目前草案的構想裡面，其實儘管委員剛剛說大多數人都是良好，但良好的考績獎金就是1個月，等同於現在的甲等，而我們是把優良和傑出的獎金再拉高。其實大多數國家的考績都會有拔尖的效果，就好像一個比賽裡面獎勵前幾名這樣子，也不會大家都無法吻合，事實上，每個機關主管都會從同仁的表現去做出評價。但是我也要強調，這個草案目前的構想，我們也得到很多不同的意見，我也謝謝很多公務同仁提供這些不同的意見，銓敘部周部長這邊都會納入參考，我們修這個法也沒有時間表，我們會審慎研議大家的回應、大家各種意見之後，再來看看這個法要怎麼修或要不要修。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長，就這個法案來看，我們發現等級會影響到考績獎金的多寡，我想另外再跟秘書長討論另外一個問題，比較現行條文與修正條文發現不但原本已經功頂的資深公務員，他的1個月考績獎金可能沒了，對於得到80到84分原本被評為甲等的公務員，在新制也會變成和原本乙等的公務員在同個等級。所以我覺得這一次的修法算是大修，把公務員的考績整個都顛覆掉，用新法來覆蓋，為什麼我們不在現行的法規上去做小修就好？把不合時宜的部分修掉就好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，公務員現在的考績結構有一個歷史的過程，過去考績甲等是三分之一，但不可以超過二分之一，這是比較早的規定，後來歷史演變之後把二分之一的上限拿掉，甲等的比例就一路上漲，漲到十多年前已經到了快百分之九十，變成大家的考績幾乎都是甲等的時候，考績就失去其意義，後來才會以聯名箋函的方式拉回來變成百分之七十五為上限，50是原則、75是上限，有這樣一個過程。","誠如我剛剛講的，現在的制度其實也滿多批評、滿多抱怨的，所以我們試圖去做調整，調整有一個原則和前提，就是我們希望國家的考績獎金總支出不要減少，但是也不要過度增加，因此就會變成是去調整其內部結構的合理性。當然這就會造成一個問題，有些人會少拿、有些人會多拿，但是總獎金沒有變，不會減少，像過年時的報導說我們要減福利、減待遇，其實完全沒有，總獎金根本沒有減少。委員剛剛講的內部結構問題，這跟現制比的確就會有一些有些落差，所以我剛剛才講我們聽到很多這樣的聲音，我們也會把這個意見納入未來思考的方向。","不過因為現制也有一個狀況，在現在的制度之下，如果公務同仁是年功俸到頂，如果拿乙等是半個月的考績獎金，因為他的年功俸到頂會再多加1個月，所以也會有拿乙等的同仁有一個半月，但是其他沒有到頂的甲等同仁是1個月，會有這樣的現象。為什麼會有這個狀況？年功俸到頂其實比較跟俸給有關、跟年資有關，但是我們把它和考績放在一起討論，其實概念上有點混淆，這也是為什麼這一次在探討的時候，也有想這個部分要做檢討，不過現在都沒有定案。"],["陳委員俊宇：在這個新法上，其實看起來對於新進的公務人員比較沒有保障，我大概敘述一下第十條條文的內容，擔任機關首長、副首長，或主管、副主管職務，領導有方，績效優良者，第十條就限縮到新進人員，你要拿到考績傑出的話要符合這個條件，對於公務人員未來在考績分數的打評上，這會讓新進人員覺得不公平，所以我希望針對這個部分還是應該要深思熟慮。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這是條件之一，但它不是全部的條件。第二個，我想大家很擔心分配或集中在高階文官或主管身上的問題，也就是優良和傑出會不會集中在高階人員身上的問題，我們在修改過程中一定會納入考量，希望應該是同階和同階比較，而不是低階去跟高階比，現在的考績制度之所以很多人抱怨，其實比較多抱怨的同仁就是低階的同仁，因為他們覺得自己常常輪乙等不太公平。"],["陳委員俊宇：我在此還是建議秘書長，針對這個部分，我們應該要制定一個公平合理，而且有效的考績制度，才能夠讓好的人才留在政府機關服務，避免一些年輕人因為看到新制認為未來他要在這個職場環境裡面去做競爭會有困難，他可能卻步，不敢進入這個職場，以上跟秘書長做簡單報告。","另外，我想請教一個問題，針對宜蘭設置考場的部分，去年度高普考首次在宜蘭設立考場，成效也算是不錯，可是在初等考的部分，目前還是沒有考場，針對這個部分，我們是不是可以再考慮在宜蘭增設考場？"],["劉秘書長建忻：陳委員，我是不是請考選部部長說明？"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["許部長舒翔：報告委員，初等考試明年會增設。"],["陳委員俊宇：明年會增設，沒問題吧？"],["許部長舒翔：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：我希望在宜蘭能夠增設，因為我看在臺北、花蓮、臺東都有考場設置，就單單漏掉宜蘭縣。"],["許部長舒翔：因為地方特考有設，明年地方特考五等就併入初等考試，所以初等考試明年宜蘭同樣會設考場。"],["陳委員俊宇：在宜蘭會設，地點一樣在宜大嗎？"],["許部長舒翔：這個到時候就看地方政府怎麼安排。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為增設考場的話，也會吸引到一些要進入職場的人願意去考試，不然舟車勞頓，每次都要進京考試非常的麻煩，也會讓一些民眾對於來臺北考試或到其他考場考試覺得舟車勞頓，很麻煩，所以拜託不管是高普考還是初等考，在宜蘭一定要設考場。"],["許部長舒翔：所以我們這幾年在宜蘭也增設，像身障特考也是有設。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：請謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那請主席是請我們秘書長好 邀請劉秘書長好 秘書長還有我們今天與會列席的各位主管還有我們在場所有的這個我們立法院的同仁大家早安我想先請教一下我們秘書長對於我們這個考積法的這個新制的問題"},{"start":51.735,"end":79.753,"text":"那因為這最近是我們公務人員熱烈在討論的一個重大的議題因為考機法的新制對於我們現在所推出的一些修正草案對於公務人員的這個制度來講影響很大我不曉得在這方面秘書長有沒有留意到第一就是說我們從現行的條文裡面我們的這個考機是從甲乙丙丁"},{"start":81.174,"end":101.485,"text":"4個等次現在改成傑出、優良、良好、待改善和太處5個等次比例上也從過去的默契上假等75%改成傑出加優良的部分不超過15%其中為了獎勵特別卓越的公務人員所增設的這個"},{"start":103.862,"end":128.637,"text":"結出等級分數在90分以上並且在修正的條文第9條也明定需達到某些具體的事蹟才能夠列為結出而修正的條文第10條也訂出在那些情況之下我們條文裡面的那些情況之下這資料上都有不得列優良以上但"},{"start":129.597,"end":147.311,"text":"照這個草案內容來看公務人員似乎是沒有條件能夠爭取到優良的等級而在現行的這個制度原本有75%的人可以獲得甲等但是在這個食物的運作上有所謂的這個輪流的說法"},{"start":149.534,"end":178.411,"text":"那非資深的公務人員恐怕也很難拿到85分以上所以在心智下人人都想擠進這15%但似乎能預期大部分的人都會卡在這個良好的這個等級再次我想請教我們秘書長實施心智真的能夠公平的評鑑出公務人員的工作表現嗎還是會讓認真的公務人員乾脆選擇躺平就等著拿良好就好"},{"start":179.011,"end":200.683,"text":"秘書長跟委員報告首先我想強調就是我們在修法過程其實都有一個徵詢意見的過程那這一次這個事實上我們現在的階段就是我們全序部在就目前的構想在徵詢各機關的意見並不是公開也沒有還沒有推出這部法律這個草案目前還在全序部也沒有送到院裡面來"},{"start":201.423,"end":222.314,"text":"那第二個就委員剛剛垂詢的這一個版本的內容的問題我想出發點是因為現在的考級制度的確也有非常非常多的公務同仁在抱怨那剛剛講到說有錢不管怎麼分級大家都會懷疑有沒有輪流的問題現在很多拿一等的同仁每年有25%左右的同仁是拿到一等他的考級獎金只有半個月"},{"start":222.874,"end":249.977,"text":"事實上非常多人認為這個部分其實也有一些平和上面的可能不公平或他個人不服氣的狀況那我們現在的這個目前草案的構想裡面其實儘管委員剛剛說大多數人都是良好但良好的考機獎金就是一個月就是等於現在的假等而我們把優良跟傑出的獎金再拉高那其實大多數國家的考機其實都會有拔尖的效果就好像一個比賽裡面獎勵前幾名"},{"start":251.598,"end":252.579,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":272.352,"end":272.372,"text":"秘書長："},{"start":285.649,"end":311.138,"text":"我們就這個法我們發現到說這個等級會影響到考級獎金的多寡那我在這邊我想另外再跟我們這個秘書長討論另外一個問題就是我們如果比照現行的條文和修正的條文可以發現說不但這個原本已經公頂的這個資深的公務員他的考級獎金可能一個月的這個獎金沒了"},{"start":311.658,"end":333.2,"text":"對於得到80到84分原本被評為假等的公務員在新制也會變成和原本已等的公務員在同個等級所以我是覺得說我們在這一次的修法這算大秀大秀整個那個這個公務員的這個考機是整個都顛覆掉"},{"start":334.622,"end":344.101,"text":"用新法來要覆蓋那為什麼我們不在現行的法規上去做這個小修就好把不合適宜的把它修掉就好了"},{"start":345.814,"end":366.66,"text":"各位報告就是公務員現在考機的結構它有一個歷史的過程過去考機甲等是三分之一但不可以超過二分之一是最早比較早的規定後來歷史演變之後把那個上限二分之一上限拿掉之後甲等的比例就一路上漲漲到十多年前已經到了快百分之九十了"},{"start":367.04,"end":379.117,"text":"那他就變成他這個考機就變成幾乎大家都是加等的時候他是考機失去他的意義那後來才會有這個聯名兼函的方式拉回來變成75%做上限50是原則75是上限他有這樣一個過程"},{"start":382.722,"end":383.563,"text":"陳俊宇委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":405.959,"end":406.46,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":421.152,"end":421.272,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":437.839,"end":456.837,"text":"因為他如果拿一等他是半個月考取獎金但再多加一個月因為他年功奉到頂所以也會有拿一等的同仁他有一個半月但是其他沒有到頂的假等的同仁是一個月這樣的一個現象那為什麼會有這個狀況就是說年功奉到頂這件事情其實比較是跟奉給有關"},{"start":457.978,"end":461.219,"text":"秘書長在整個這個新法上其實看起來他對於這個新的新進的公務人員比較沒有一個保障他裡面有一個那個條穩定"},{"start":485.731,"end":506.477,"text":"第10條的部分有一個我大概敘述一下單任機關首長、副首長或主管、副主管職務、領導友方、績效優良者他這一個這一個第10條就限縮到新進人員你要拿到這個考機制這個"},{"start":510.418,"end":510.558,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":531.853,"end":560.983,"text":"第二個我想大家很擔心分配或集中在高階文官或主管的身上的問題就是如果這個優等跟傑出優良跟傑出會不會集中在高階人員身上的問題這個我們在修改過程中一定會納入考量希望他就是有一個比較應該是跟同階跟同階比較而不是低階去跟高階比那現在的考機之所以很多人抱怨其實比較多抱怨的同仁就是低階的同仁因為他們覺得自己常常輪移等不太公平"},{"start":561.69,"end":589.882,"text":"我在此還是建議我們就是秘書長就是針對這個部分我們應該是要去制定一個公平合理而且有效的這個考機才能夠讓我們這個好的人才能夠留在政府機關來服務避免一些年輕人因為看到這個心智他認為說未來他要在這個環境裡面職場要去做競爭會有困難的話他可能卻步不敢進入這個職場這是在跟我們秘書長做簡單報告另外我想請教一個問題"},{"start":591.062,"end":615.675,"text":"就是針對這個宜蘭設置考場的部分那我們在這個去年度高普考的部分是在宜蘭首次設立這個考場那成效也算是不錯可是在那個初等考的部分還是目前還是沒有考場那針對這個部分我們是不是可以再考慮在宜蘭來增設考場陳委員我是不是請考選部部長出言"},{"start":617.276,"end":641.748,"text":"包圍明年會增設明年會增設沒問題吧好我希望說能夠增設在宜蘭因為我看那個考場設置在臺北、花蓮、臺東都有就單單漏掉宜蘭因為地方特考地方特考有設那地方特考的五等明年就並無初等考試所以我們這個初等考試明年宜蘭同樣會設這個考試在宜蘭會設是好一樣地點在宜大嗎還是"},{"start":645.809,"end":673.521,"text":"這個到時候就看地方政府怎麼安排我希望因為你增設考場的話也會這個吸引到一些要進入這個職場的人會願意去考試阿不然周車勞頓大家都要進去考試這個非常的麻煩也會讓一些民眾對於來台北考試或是到其他考場去考試他們會覺得說周車勞頓的麻煩所以拜託就是不管是高普考還是初等考在宜蘭一定要上"},{"start":673.761,"end":678.129,"text":"對,所以我們這幾年在宜蘭也增設像勝仗特考也是有設好,以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903265f4d80900d69b514b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c537dad2849ea99e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:17:18 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10:28:09","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:28:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:17:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請許部長還有職安署鄒署長。"],["主席：請部長、請鄒署長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好、署長好。關於移工醫療權益的問題，我們上週在質詢裡面也跟部長有討論過，當時本席就建議說必須要串聯跨部會的資源來進行有關於這些移工在各方面權益的維護，其實我們也瞭解資源不是沒有，只是沒有妥善地整合，很多政策其實都已經行之多年，包括像我們在上一次的時候有提到針對國內事實上有4家以上的友善醫院，針對我們這些移工做相關的醫療資源的處理，這部分我們期待還能夠持續地加強。今天部長的報告裡面其實也有討論到未來怎麼去加強各方面的這些勞動人力還有移工方面的部分，如何強化外籍移工醫療服務的可近性，那個時候部長也表示說會持續，也允諾會跟衛福部來商研一些精進的措施，不知道未來在這方面部長有哪一些規劃？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我先說明新南向的健康服務中心，我們後來去了解它是針對國人的部分，沒有包括移工，而且它的項目是比較少。然後有關於移工欠費的問題，這個部分行政院也召開過跨部會的會議，4月還會再開第2次會議，我那天有看到公文，上一次的會議是在去年11月21日開的，那時候整個就是包括專家、學者、各部會，大家的看法是認為這個是屬於個人債務，必須要要求移工來源國提供或者來建立相關的處理機制，這個部分我們會跟來源國透過雙邊的會議來做要求。另外因為大部分的來源國都比較消極處理這個問題，我們未來會規劃就是對外國的仲介，就是說他們移工要來，他們母國的仲介，我們會規劃它要負遣返、收容還有醫療的連帶責任，讓這些移工所衍生的一些債務問題，能夠……"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長的說明。","上個禮拜有提到，針對外國的仲介公司，希望能夠就這些失聯移工就醫的呆帳，看看有沒有辦法課責，從貴部今天的業務報告裡面可以看到，對於這些外國的仲介會課予負擔遣返及收容等連帶責任，可是並沒有看到在這方面，即一些有關醫療或者是就醫過程當中的呆帳也能夠做適當的處理，這一部分可不可以麻煩部長能夠……"],["許部長銘春：好，這個我們會納入，報告沒有寫到，漏掉了。"],["王委員正旭：相關的字眼其實都可以納進來。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。","再來，關於盤點我們職業安全一些相關措施，以保障勞工的健康權，其實本席也十分關切目前職業安全的相關規範，希望所有勞工在進行他們工作的同時，都能夠兼顧到安全跟健康，得到應有的保障。其實我們也知道行政院在2018年就已經完成制定了18項的臺灣永續發展目標，其中有三項，包括目標3、目標8、目標10，都跟我們的勞動、勞工有很密切的關係，可是從過去2年來，我們看到相關的規範，除了大型上市上櫃公司有比較完整的永續報告書以外，其他的部分我們希望能夠繼續精進。不過我們也看到，在目前1,800家左右的上市上櫃公司裡面，有提出永續報告書的好像只有三分之一，這一部分未來要如何加強，或者是有沒有更好的方式，讓所有的上市上櫃公司都能夠提出永續報告書，包括如何去監測。"],["許部長銘春：這部分我請署長來說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：非常謝謝委員。有關永續的17個指標或是國家第18個指標，其實勞動部認為每個指標都跟我們工作者有關係，所以我們勞動部跟國發會針對永續的部分，我們把安全健康列為我們往前推展的一個方向。至於委員關切我們上市公司的報告書，其實金管會針對一定規模以上的公司有規定要寫永續報告書，而永續報告書它的框架、架構中有關勞工安全健康要怎麼寫，我們職安署其實定有一個指南供給事業單位做參考，同時我們每年會針對永續報告書有關安全衛生揭露的狀況好或是不好，我們會做神秘客的調查跟抽樣來做一些評比，所以謝謝委員的提醒，其實大企業針對安全健康要來引領小企業，這整個體系是展開的，我們會透過永續的精神，讓大企業帶小企業把勞工健康問題往下扎根，謝謝委員提醒。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們看下一個畫面就知道其實GRI403它是一個指標，這個指標的第三項職業健康服務，包括了有沒有進行相關的健康檢查；還有，如何能讓工作者健康促進，可以持續的讓這些健康工作的人得到健康的保護；還有就是職業傷害的部分。但我們可以看到不同的職類，其實它揭露情形都有待加強，所以剛剛署長有提到，我們期待各方面的職類都應該努力加強這一部分。"],["鄒署長子廉：非常謝謝委員。這個報告當然是我們勞動部職安署做的基線調查的報告，我們發現一年有比一年稍微進步，但是我們認為有些產業其實是比較弱的，所以我們會針對這兩年的基線調查結果再做往後的一些展開，特別是我們會跟金管會合作，因為有些報告書在一些規範的要求上是以金管會為主，但是我們跟它合作的時候，GRI403我們勞動部會提出一個中英文對照指引，這個我們會後會給委員做參考，其實我們會引領企業把揭露的部分，特別是安全健康，來做一個比較好的說明，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：好。再來，我們可以看一下，關於企業辦理勞工健康檢查，剛剛提到這是第三項的部分，可是我們看到針對一些特殊的健康檢查，還是有滿大的落差。依照貴署的推估，目前將近有500家事實上是沒有執行相關的勞工檢查，針對這些黑數，我們未來有什麼方法或者是對策來儘量減少這些黑數？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的提醒。我們現在按照事業方的通報跟相關系統的嫁接，現在全國大概有6,600家都要做特別危害健康作業檢查，一般勞工是做一般健康檢查，但是這6,600家的部分，剛才委員有提到，就是我們所謂的系統去嫁接，看看有沒有做特殊健檢之外，我們後面的監督檢查，可以把一些高風險的拉出來。","另外跟委員報告，我們其實從去年開始做的另外一個是CMR化學物質使用的專案檢查，就是致癌、致毒害、致生殖危害的檢查。我們列管了500家，也做了後面的追蹤檢查，希望使用CMR物質的事業單位它的健康風險，能夠被我們做比較好的watch，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：好，主席，我可以再多2分鐘嗎？因為我們比較擔心的是規模比較小的，而且他們對於這種特殊健康檢查，事實上需求是更高的，如果能夠透過一些方法，比如說從公共工程的標案，從國營事業開始做起，除了大型的檢查以外，台電、中油對於相關承包商的監督，針對下層的監督可以更落實的話，對於我們從事這種很辛苦工作的勞動人員，應該可以讓他的特殊健康檢查得到更好的保障。","再來，在做這些健康檢查的當中，我們有去瞭解，也有去看執行這些健康檢查的醫療院所，是不是它都能夠有效地執行相關的內容。而我們看到的是，還有去瞭解這些醫療機構後發現，他們得到的相對分數是低的，很多是C跟D的等級，意思就是說，經我們瞭解後發現相關的人員其實都非常的優秀，可是他的一些軟硬體設施不是不足，不然就是有相關的缺失，這一部分如何能夠讓這些從事健康檢查的醫療機構在評分時，如果分數相對低的時候，有哪一些改善的方法？如何能夠把相關的資源可以引進來？不知道未來有沒有特別的規劃？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員關心，執行勞工健康檢查的醫療機構，應該要符合標準安全的需求才會讓它執行，所以我們有評核機制，所以剛剛委員show的是我們評核的成績。對此，我們現在有新的機制，如果連續3年不好，我們就把它下架，因為我們要擇優汰劣，所以有關勞工健康檢查醫療機構的管理，我們會再做努力，現在是把評分的狀況揭露，讓事業單位可以選擇好的來做勞工健康檢查；不好的部分，我們會給予輔導，希望他們能夠回到我們比較好的水線，謝謝委員提醒。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。接下來請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.58284375,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.71721875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.62846875,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.020343750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":86.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.96284375,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.71221875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.45846875000001,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.72846875,"end":99.8297187500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這個報告當然是我們勞動部責任署做極限調查的報告那我們發現說一年比年有稍微進步但是我們認為說有些產業它其實是比較弱的所以我們會針對我們這兩年的"},{"start":409.022,"end":409.042,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":432.125,"end":460.83,"text":"好 謝謝再過來我們可以看一下其實企業辦理勞工這個健康檢查剛剛提到是第三項的部分可是我們看到針對一些特殊的檢查健康檢查還是有蠻大的落差依照貴屬的推估目前將近有500家事實上是沒有執行相關這個勞工檢查那這些黑數是我們未來有什麼方"},{"start":461.71,"end":482.602,"text":"法或者是對策來盡量減少這些黑數。謝謝委員提醒,因為我們現在按照這個事業上通報跟相關系統的嫁接,我們現在全國大概6600家社都要做特別危害健康作為檢查。一般勞工是做一般健康檢查。但是6600家的部分,剛剛委員有提醒就是我們從系統去嫁接他有沒有"},{"start":482.722,"end":506.049,"text":"﹚"},{"start":506.129,"end":508.271,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":529.651,"end":557.589,"text":"除了大型的這些檢查以外那針對於臺電中有對於相關承包商的監督針對下層的這個監督可以更落實的話對於我們從事這種很辛苦的勞動人員應該可以讓他的特殊健康檢查可以得到更好的保障是那再過來就是有關於在做這個健康檢查的當中我們也了解有去"},{"start":558.53,"end":580.682,"text":"看執行這些健康檢查的醫療院所是不是在他都能夠有效的執行相關的內容那我們可以看到的就是根據去了解這些醫療機構發現他們得到的相對分數是低的很多是C跟D的等級那C跟D的等級意思就是我們去了解發現相關的"},{"start":583.163,"end":609.362,"text":"人員其實都非常的優秀可是呢他的一些軟硬體的設施不是不足或就是有相關的缺失那這一部分如何能夠讓這些從事健康檢查的醫療機構在平分如果相對低的時候有哪一些改善的方法如何能夠把相關的這些資源可以引進來不知道未來有沒有特別的規劃先有人關係"},{"start":611.209,"end":627.277,"text":"老公見他檢查的醫療機構他應該符合標準安全的需求才讓他執行所以我們有平和機制有所以看到委員秀的是我們平和的成績那我們現在有新的機制就是如果連續3年不好我們就把他要下降因為我們要擇優太劣所以有關這樣子的那個"},{"start":628.362,"end":628.923,"text":"王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"149759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69039090bb38fadd0b5414b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a60b6a72c3f6e2b4145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:06:47 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10:23:42","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":658,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:23:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:12:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時12分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請徐委員長。"],["主席：請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：林委員你好。"],["林委員楚茵：委員長好。有關於僑務工作，本席雖然過去不在國防委員會，但是我們在過去4年的國會交流當中，也感受到僑委會不只是照顧僑民，也照顧臺商。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["林委員楚茵：如果以本席所收到的資訊可以看到，其實僑委會管轄全世界，大概就是除了中國地區，大概其他……"],["徐委員長佳青：海峽兩岸三地不在我們的範圍。"],["林委員楚茵：對，以目前我拿到的統計數字，包括僑民、臺商，至少在美洲、亞洲、歐洲、大洋洲跟非洲大概就超過200萬人。可是我們駐外的人力……，如果不對或者是有增減，請委員長讓我們知道，就是美洲5個服務據點，29個駐外人員；歐洲的話是7個服務據點，8個駐外人員；亞洲9個據點，17個駐外人員；大洋洲是2個據點，共4個駐外人員。言下之意就是，如果駐外人員58位的話，除下來平均一位大概要服務3萬6,000人。","以這樣的動能跟能量，包括前面的沈委員特別提到，當然還有些榮譽職的僑務委員，要承擔這樣的工作量，我們除了服務之外，還要關注同樣也是中國現在複合式的威脅，包括您剛剛提到的，我也有整理出來，就是巴黎華語文學校網站被中國的海外警察局疑似破壞。中國現在如果用金錢要收買恐怕不容易，尤其是我們的僑民，你有機會到其他國家去安身立命，大概都不太可以用少數金錢就能誘惑。但是這種所謂的分化、網路戰，甚至於它乾脆直接就像國際組織所說的，中國在全世界「獵捕」臺灣人，這個標題聽起來很可怕。我的資訊只到2019年，因為這是報紙上面所寫的，2016到2019就有六百多起臺灣人在海外被中國以強制的方式引渡。","剛剛你也說了，您回答沈委員的說法是……，目前包括你們的報告也沒有明確地指出來，你們面對中國威脅、利誘，甚至於像強迫的手段，在2019年之後到現在，有沒有更多或減少？尤其是在他們的反間諜法或者是國家反分裂法、愛國主義的相關法規之下，還有沒有更多我們海外的僑民或臺商無緣無故地就被帶回中國去問訊？"],["徐委員長佳青：確實過去這兩、三年有發生過，因為中國的反分裂法跟相關的緊縮以後，甚至有不少的臺商或僑民如果直接拿美國護照、臺灣護照入境到中國去的時候，會接受比較嚴格的盤查，包括他們的手機、筆電等等，甚至身上帶的書籍都有可能會成為被查扣、入罪的一個罪名，我們確實過去有幾個案例是發生了。","另外剛剛提到獵捕，這些其實不算是真的僑民，有絕大多數是過去因為全球的詐騙集團也在臺灣吸收了不少年輕人，主要在東南亞地區進行相關的不法作業，這些人如果是被當地政府所查扣的時候，經常就會因此被引渡過去。"],["林委員楚茵：好，如果以委員長所提的，媒體報導的這個，可能他也是犯罪嫌疑人，而且成為中國詐騙集團的下線或共犯，所以才導致有這樣的案件出現。但是近年來發生比較多的就是我們的僑民，如果拿著美國護照進入到中國的時候，因為具有臺灣身分，很容易就會被嚴厲盤查或者是被中國高度關注，是吧……"],["徐委員長佳青：確實是這樣，而且不單單只有美國護照，近年連歐洲護照部分的也有。"],["林委員楚茵：好，言下之意，中國對於臺灣的監視、滲透甚至於統戰，甚至於介選的這個部分時有所聞。我們知道，現在不在籍投票成為在野黨積極要推動的一個法案，剛剛您說了，兩岸三地不關僑委會，那麼其他地方如果要進行投票的時候，我不知道僑委會在業務上是不是要協助？但是我們現在防範於未然，我們就先來討論一下。","以行政院現行的版本，強調的是全國性的投票，而且是以臺灣為主，也就是我們國內為主，但是在野黨的版本是只要設籍在中華民國自由地區者，皆可以依本法申請不在籍投票，不在籍投票的方式有通訊投票和設置特別投開票所。剛剛我特別強調了，以目前僑委會的人力來講的話，全球也只有58位，然後如果以現在在野黨的版本，那麼其實不只中國臺商喔，全球臺商、臺僑應該也都適用吧！那如果是這樣的話，僑委會有沒有思考過要怎麼樣來協助通訊投票和設置投開票所？因為如果是以在野黨所舉的例子，韓國也可以在海外通訊投票，可是人家是設置在人家的領事館裡面喔！那如果是以我們現行的、我們現在看到的僑委會或外交部所設的據點的話，我想請問一下僑委會現在有沒有也開始來思考一下，怎麼樣協助全球臺商、臺僑來進行所謂的投票？因為我特別看了一下你們這次報告當中的第7頁，主要都是鼓勵僑民返臺投票、維護自己的參政權嘛！對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意是過去你們也從來沒有思考過，有一天全球臺商、臺僑要進行全球總投票，包括你認為通訊投票可行嗎？還是要設置全球的投開票所？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，當然，站在海外僑民的方便性來說，過去確實有部分僑民一直期待能夠用不在籍投票的模式，但是他們另外一方面也提出了疑問，就是公平性、安全性的問題，他們說因為不同國家，如果是在比較民主自由的地區、國家，這一方面在執行上當然沒有太大的挑戰，可是確實有很多國家並不是在這樣的一個基礎上面，在只享有部分民主跟自由的區域、甚至很多威權的地區是無法執行的。我們國家的立法一定要有一致性，一旦法通過，必須要能適用於全體國內外的僑民或國民，在這樣的狀況之下，確實也有部分僑民提出那樣的質疑，害怕臺灣這三十多年來建立的民主制度、信任已經逐漸鞏固的狀況會受到一些可能的挑戰。所以確實兩種聲音都有，也有贊成的，也有反對的。","過去因為海峽兩岸三地不是我們的管轄範圍……"],["林委員楚茵：是，但是全球……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是全球的……"],["林委員楚茵：剛剛我舉例的就超過200萬人喔，而且我想詢問的是，這200萬人坦白說僑委會並沒有一個確定的名冊跟清單嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有錯，而且跟委員報告，我們在全球真的有駐外館的地區，並沒有想像中遍布全世界的國家，當然，我們僑務秘書的人數相對更少，所以在這樣的狀況下，如果真要這樣執行，確實是有相當高的難度。如果在部分國家無法執行的話，部分公民的權利相對會受到侵害，這也會呈現出不公平的狀態，所以到目前為止，我們就是只有在總統、副總統這個選舉的狀況會把相關資訊儘可能充分提供給民眾，歡迎他們如果沒有戶籍在臺灣者就進行登記，在原戶籍所在地、然後在投票日當天返國投票，這樣的模式成本確實是增加了不少，不過僑胞基於熱愛自己的祖國，還是會有非常積極的行為。目前我們所得到的訊息是正反兩面都有。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席今天的質詢其實只是針對不在籍投票的疑慮，當然我也知道僑界朋友有些人會希望：唉呀，這個不在籍投票如果實施，那真好。因為他們可能不一定需要坐一趟飛機回來，甚至有時候會搶不到機票。但是如何能夠確切地來執行，包括您剛剛所提到的，境外通訊投票是要郵寄嗎？如果不用郵寄的話……，包括連立法院所做的報告都說電子投票是最不安全的、最有可能以駭客入侵或其他方式來動手腳，而如果是設所謂特別的投票所，我們又得要有領事館。就像您剛剛所提的，一個法令定下去要通體適用，眼光不能只放在中國的臺商，全球有更多的臺商，如何能夠在安全性、自由民主而且不受脅迫底下，協助他們完成投票？我希望未來討論的時候，其實僑委會也要一併思考，要把你們的相關意見呈現出來，我覺得這個才是真正公平，而且真正地維護投票自由。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝委員，我們一定會密切地積極來蒐集各界僑民的心聲。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員仁代）：好，謝謝林楚茵委員的發言。","接下來由馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.36846875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.87721875,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.05721875,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.838468750000004,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.150343750000005,"end":46.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.635343750000004,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.72034375000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.57659375000001,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.62909375,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.39409375000002,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":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那麼也就是言下之意中國對於台灣的監視、滲透甚至於統戰甚至於借選的這個部分其實時有所聞那我們知道現在不再急投票成為一個在野黨積極要來推動的一個部分剛剛您說了除了兩岸三地不關僑委會"},{"start":311.69,"end":336.74,"text":"那麼其他地方如果要進行投票的時候我不知道僑委會在業務上是不是要協助但是我們現在防範於未然我們就先來討論一下以行政院現行的版本強調的是全國性的投票而且是以台灣為主也就是我們國內為主但是在野黨的版本他是說只要涉及在中華民國自由地區者皆可以依本法來申請不在籍投票不在籍投票的方式就是有通訊投票跟設置特別投開票所"},{"start":339.662,"end":347.702,"text":"剛剛我特別強調了就是以目前僑委會的人力來講的話全球也只有58位然後如果說以"},{"start":348.952,"end":373.877,"text":"現在在野黨的版本那其實不只中國台商喔全球台商台僑應該也都適用吧那如果是這樣的話僑委會有沒有思考過要怎麼樣來協助通訊投票跟設置投開票所因為如果是以在野黨所舉的例子韓國也可以在海外通訊投票可是人家是設置在人家的領事館裡面喔"},{"start":374.637,"end":379.782,"text":"那如果是以我們現行的我們現在看到的僑委會或外交部所設的據點的話我想請問一下僑委會有沒有現在也開始來思考一下怎麼樣協助全球台商台僑來進行所謂的投票因為我特別看了一下你們這一次的報告當中第7頁主要都是鼓勵僑民反台投票維護這個自己的參政權嘛對不對對那"},{"start":403.683,"end":408.268,"text":"顏夏之意是過去你們也從來沒有思考過有一天全球台商台橋要進行全球總投票包括你認為通訊投票可行嗎還是要設置全球的投開票所"},{"start":419.165,"end":437.317,"text":"跟委員報告當然站在海外僑民的方便性來說過去確實有部分僑民一直有所期待能夠用不在籍投票的模式但是他們另外一方面也提出了疑問就是說那這個公平性安全性的問題他說因為不同國家如果是在比較民主自由的地區國家這一方面的執行上當然沒有太大的這個挑戰"},{"start":448.524,"end":467.238,"text":"可是確實有很多國家並不是在這樣的一個基礎上面只有享有部分民主跟自由的區域甚至很多威權的地區是無法執行的那我們國家的立法一定要有一致性一旦法通過必須要能適用全體的國內外的僑民或者國民"},{"start":471.181,"end":484.29,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下確實也有部分僑民有提出那樣的質疑害怕說原來臺灣這30多年來建立的民主制度信任已經逐漸鞏固的狀況下會受到一些可能的挑戰所以確實兩種聲音都有也有贊成的也有反對的那過去因為"},{"start":496.799,"end":502.221,"text":"這個海峽兩岸三地不是我們的管轄範圍但是全球剛剛我舉例的就超過200萬人而且我想詢問的是這200萬人坦白說僑委會並沒有一個確定的名冊跟情況而且跟委員報告我們在全球有真的駐外管的"},{"start":514.226,"end":514.386,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":533.975,"end":540.941,"text":"在部分國家無法執行的話那這個對於部分公民的這個權利相對的他是受到侵害這也會呈現出不公平的一個狀態所以到目前為止我們就是只有在總統副總統這個選舉的狀況我們會把相關資訊盡可能充分提供給民眾歡迎他們如果沒有戶籍在台灣者就是進行這個登記在原戶籍所在地然後在"},{"start":562.339,"end":562.379,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":577.677,"end":600.791,"text":"好本席今天的質詢其實只是針對不在籍投票的疑慮當然我也知道喬介朋友有些人會希望說哎呀這個不在籍投票如果實施那真好因為他們可能不一定需要一趟飛機回來甚至有時候會說搶不到機票但是如何能夠確切的來執行包括您剛剛所提到的境外通訊的投票到底要有郵寄嗎如果不用郵寄的話包括連立法院"},{"start":604.073,"end":628.052,"text":"他所做的報告都說電子投票是最不安全的最有可能駭客入侵或其他方式來動手腳那如果你是設所謂特別的投票所我們又得要有領事館那麼就像您剛剛所提的一個法令定下去要通體適用眼光不能只放在中國的台商全球有更多的台商那麼如何的能夠在安全性"},{"start":630.424,"end":631.444,"text":"謝謝林楚茵的發言"}]}},{"id":"149756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903248fb6a356d53936b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a69b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:09:57 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10:21:11","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":674,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:21:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:09:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時10分）謝謝主席。有請審計長跟主計長。"],["主席：請陳審計長、朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：兩位長官早安。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員早。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：我想我先請問審計長有關P2P業者納管的問題，審計部在3月5號發布了一個新聞稿，要求金管會要強化P2P的管理，你要求金管會加強對於網路上借貸平台的監理。審計長，你認為應該要怎麼樣來管理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為世界經濟論壇講，假訊息、詐騙是我們未來2年風險的首位，所以打擊詐欺這方面變成我們很重要的一個方向，因為詐騙，金融就很重要，所以我們去查的時候……"],["賴委員惠員：所以審計長你也看到了這個金融的危機，如果我們這個錢收不回來的話，其實會造成很大的一個社會問題。","你再看下一張圖，租賃業跟P2P是非常類似的，其實它只是在於資金來源的不同，P2P資金的來源來自於民眾，租賃業來自於銀行，它從銀行的行庫裡頭借款。目前我們所知道是，租賃業從公股行庫裡就借了1,268億。這樣的話，利息上的差別，聯徵也沒有，用戶的資安調查也沒有，可是相對的，P2P有金管會管，那租賃業呢？你認為應該由誰來管？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員非常的深入，金融上有一套能夠整體都兼顧到，非常好，所以委員提出這個問題，我們會進行瞭解。"],["賴委員惠員：由誰來管呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分原則上……"],["賴委員惠員：你既然已經讚美我說我講得非常好了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會提出這個意見……"],["賴委員惠員：可是我不知道租賃業應該要由誰來管。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：讓行政院去衡量這個到底是金管會或怎麼樣……"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有曾經提出來呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個我們沒辦法代行政機關回答說誰來管。"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，你有沒有曾經提出來過呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個就是我剛剛佩服委員之處，你能夠再深入到這塊，這個我們沒有提出來過。"],["賴委員惠員：你現在講的是P2P是由金管會來管，那租賃業你有沒有提出這樣的一個建議，是由哪一個監理機關來管呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分本來是民法上的一個問題，但是我們可能會把這個意見，或者委員也把這個意見……"],["賴委員惠員：因為你一定會告訴我這是民間之間的借貸關係，是民法……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["賴委員惠員：它雖然欠缺了徵信，以及帳戶資料保管不透明的問題，你已經知道這些問題在哪裡了，那誰來管，是不是應該做一個積極的建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原則上我們尊重行政部門，但是我想如果是錢的事情，因為我們有成立金管會，儘量由金管會統籌會比較整體。"],["賴委員惠員：非常好，審計長，你也看到了，你不能放任監管的套利，所以你認為應該由金管會來……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我個人啦！但是這個我還是要尊重行政部門的決定。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。","主計長，我是白河的外孫，跟你一樣，我想跟你探討，2023年我們的CPI年增率接近15年來的次高，主計處的統計裡也非常清楚看到，2023全年度的CPI年增率是2.5%，今年2月份的CPI你預估會來到3.08%，針對整年CPI的年增率你預測會降低到1.64%。主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們最新的是1.85%，而且沒有包括電費的事情。"],["賴委員惠員：1.85%，那你認為降到1.85%是好還是不好?"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得並沒有很悲觀，也沒有很樂觀，因為我們還有電價，如果1.85%的話，加上電價就可能真的會接近2%，我們認為最近2月份比較高是因為去年的過年是在1月，所以比較的基礎是去年的基礎比較低，所以今年3.08%比較高。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：我想你也預測到今年的CPI，就是有考慮到電價的調整以及醫療費用整個上升的趨勢。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，我剛剛送你一包洋芋片，你拿出來搖一下好不好？我這一包洋芋片跟你這一包洋芋片，我跟你講，這個洋芋片量變少了，我不知道你之前買過洋芋片嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個比較少是不是？"],["賴委員惠員：我們二個都一樣少。"],["朱主計長澤民：一樣少，跟委員報告，我們在做物價調查的時候，它的量少的話，我們會考慮它的價就有漲。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有，我跟你講，它量少價不變。"],["朱主計長澤民：那樣我們就認定物價有上漲。"],["賴委員惠員：這個業者會告訴你說，這個裡面充氣可以保鮮，可是我們知道這是一個縮水式的通膨，民眾關心這個縮水式的通膨，我不知道你在CPI的計算裡有沒有把它算進去？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們有算進去，就像買便當，原來滷蛋是一顆，現在變成一半，我們就認定說它大概漲了大概4、5塊錢，我們都會算到裡面去，我們CPI的計算會考量它的重量、質量的問題，都有考量。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，非常好，所以你的通膨有跟民眾體感的通膨是一樣的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：民眾感覺可能會不太一樣，可是我們在做統計的時候，我們會有考量。"],["賴委員惠員：不一樣怎麼辦？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們在物價指數調的時候會考慮它的重量變化，我們都會考量。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你隨時在調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是說所有的通膨都是在你的掌控中？"],["朱主計長澤民：在理論上。"],["賴委員惠員：那實際上呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們主計總處著重的是成長率，是一個相對物價，個別的話，因為我們調查的項目有兩萬多種，我不可能……像神農嚐百藥，他也只嚐100種，我要調查兩萬多種，每一個細節我並不……"],["賴委員惠員：那你當然應該要調查的啊！你應該要調查清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，我們都有調查，那些資料都有。"],["賴委員惠員：當你體感的CPI跟老百姓更接近的時候，你才會跟大家是接近的。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，因為民眾所接觸的是他每天買的東西，像外食費，但是我們有些電器用品也是在下跌的，那個因為他不是每天都要買，他可能一、兩年才買一次，那個是在下跌的。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，你們2月底公告一份失業率是3.39%的報告，你強調說這是最近23年來最低的一次，可是根據新聞的報導，我們的缺工率一直持續在上升，這個缺工的狀況創了新高，業者積極尋求勞動力補足缺口，為什麼會有這樣的一個狀況？110年到112年統計的實質薪資一直都在下降，老百姓體感感受到的是物價的膨脹更明顯了，我們怎麼樣來解釋這個問題呢？你有沒有辦法從數據上去……我們看到你的數據是沒有辦法反映出來的。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，所謂的失業率降低就是代表就業情況很好，所以缺工的情況就會比較多，二者是反向的關係，像金融危機的時候……"],["賴委員惠員：這個我懂，可是我還是覺得你避開了基本薪資一直太低，然後我們的薪資一直都沒有辦法調漲，這到底是什麼樣的原因？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，它跟產業結構有關係，的確有些科技業的實質薪資是在漲，可是我們有很多的小規模企業因為成本變高了，民眾的消費量也有一定，它會比較少，所以在這個時候，我們就要調整基本工資。"],["賴委員惠員：要調整，你也覺得基本工資要調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們每年都有調。"],["賴委員惠員：每年都有調，可是你調的速度事實上是跟不上勞工的期待。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們會考量經濟情況、各種情形……"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：本席在這裡要求審計部跟主計總處分別針對剛才提出的議題，在1個月內提出書面報告給本席。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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因為這個我沒辦法帶行政機關除說誰來管 這個就是我剛剛退伍委員的之處就是他你能夠再順序到這一塊 這個我們沒有提出來的你現在講的是P2P是由金管會來管 那朱任業你有沒有提出這樣的一個建議 是由哪一位監理機關來管"},{"start":193.165,"end":214.104,"text":"這個部分本來這是民法上的一個問題但是這個可能我們會把這個意見或者委員也把這個意見所以你一定會告訴我這是民間之間的借貸關係是民法那他雖然欠缺了徵信跟帳戶資料保管的不透明的問題好你已經都"},{"start":215.245,"end":242.406,"text":"知道這些問題在哪裡了那誰來管是不是應該做一個積極上的一個建議這個沿著上我們尊重行政部門但是我想應該如果錢都是錢盡量因為我們有成立了金管會盡量由金管會統籌會比較整體非常好沈局長你也看到了這個其實你不能放任就是監管的一個套利所以你認為應該由金管會來"},{"start":243.627,"end":265.409,"text":"我個人啦,但是這個我還是要尊重行政部門的決定來,主計長委員好,謝謝委員的主計長,我伯父的外孫我是白河的外孫,跟你一樣那我想跟你探討就是說在最近就是說"},{"start":266.73,"end":291.019,"text":"其實從2023年就是我們的CPI年增率接近15年來的次高那主計處的統計裡頭我們也看到了非常的清楚就是2023前年度的CPI的年增率是2.5%那今年二月份的CPI你預估會來到3.08那就是說針對整年的那個CPI的一個"},{"start":292.159,"end":320.913,"text":"年增率你預測就是會降低到1.60%對跟委員報告我們最新的是1.85而且沒有報告電池那你認為降到1.85是好還是不好這個我覺得是一個所謂的一個是怎麼樣並沒有很悲觀也沒有很很樂觀因為我們還有電價如果1.85的話加上電價就可能會真的會接近百分之二的那"},{"start":322.314,"end":327.838,"text":"謝謝主計長我想你也就是預測到今年CPI的一個就是有考慮到電價的一個調整還有醫療費用的一個那個就是整個"},{"start":350.444,"end":366.99,"text":"整個一個就是說他上升的一個趨勢主計長我剛送你一包洋芋片你拿出來搖一下好不好我跟你說我這一包洋芋片跟你這一包洋芋片雖然你不要打開喔我跟你講"},{"start":370.251,"end":386.196,"text":"這個洋芋片齁,量變少了。我不知道你之前買過洋芋片嗎?我們兩個都一樣少。那個跟那個委員報告一下,我們在這物價調查的時候啊,它的量少的話,我們會考慮說它的價就有上。"},{"start":386.596,"end":412.004,"text":"沒有我跟你講他量少價不變量少價不變雖然他這個業者會告訴你說這個裡面那個充氣是可以保鮮可是我們知道這是一個縮水式的通膨就是說民眾關心這個縮水式的通膨我不知道你在這個CPI的一個計算裡頭你有沒有把它算進去了"},{"start":412.464,"end":439.122,"text":"對我們有算進去就像買那個便當原來滷蛋是一顆現在變成一半我們就認定說他是漲了大概是漲了大概四塊四五塊錢我們都會算到裡面去我們CPI的那個會考量他的重量他的質量的問題主計長非常好所以你的通膨是有跟民眾的通膨體表的通膨是一樣的嗎"},{"start":440.643,"end":461.713,"text":"那個是民眾感覺是可能會不太一樣可是我們在做統計的時候我們會有考量那不一樣那不一樣怎麼辦呢不一樣我們就在物價指數調的時候會考慮它的那個重量的變化我們都會考慮所以你隨時在調整對謝謝所以就是說所有的通膨都是在你的掌控中"},{"start":463.128,"end":481.664,"text":"欸在理論上啊對對對在理論上那實際上啊實際上因為我們主計總處著重的是一個成長率是一個相對物價個別的話因為我們調查的所謂的花色有兩萬多種我不可能像神龍藏百藥啊他也只藏一百種我這要調查兩萬種每一個細節我"},{"start":484.466,"end":508.899,"text":"那你當然是應該要調查的啊,你應該要調查得更清楚啊,所以就是說你的體感的CPI跟我們老百姓更接近的時候,那你才會是跟大家是接近的啊。對,跟大家委員報告一下,就是因為民眾所接觸是他每天買的東西,像外食會,但是有些電器用品我們也是在下跌的。"},{"start":510.601,"end":524.293,"text":"因為他不是每天都要買他可能一兩年才買一次那個是在下跌的我想主席長你這二月底公告一份失業率是3.39%的一個報告那你強調說這是最近23年來最低的一次"},{"start":531.44,"end":550.707,"text":"可是根據新聞我們新聞的一個報導我們的一個缺工率一直持續在上升那這個缺工的狀況創了新高那業者積極尋求勞動力補足的一個缺口那為什麼會有這樣子的一個狀況就是說你一百"},{"start":551.187,"end":573.142,"text":"一十年到一百一十二年的統計的實質薪資卻一直都是在下降那老百姓感受到了體感感受到的是物價的一個膨脹更明顯了那我們怎麼樣來解釋這個問題呢沒有辦法就是說從數據上去我們看到你的數據是沒有辦法反映出來的"},{"start":573.682,"end":590.432,"text":"委員報告一下因為所謂的那個是失業率降低就是代表就業情況很好所以他的那個缺工的情況就會比較多他兩個是一個反向的關係像金融危機的時候這個我懂主計長我懂"},{"start":592.213,"end":614.865,"text":"可是我還是覺得說你避開了基本薪資一直就是說太低了然後我們的一個薪資一直都沒有辦法調漲這到底是什麼樣的原因跟那個委員報告一下因為他跟產業結構有關係的確有些科技業他的實質薪資是在漲可是我們有很多的小規模企業的話"},{"start":616.386,"end":640.59,"text":"他因為他成本變高了民眾他的那個消費量也有一定所以他會比較少所以我們就是在這個時候我們就要調整基本工資就要調整你也覺得說基本工資要調整我們每年都有調每年都有調可是你調了速度事實上是跟不上就是勞工他們的一個期待"},{"start":641.97,"end":658.955,"text":"對那個是我們會考量的經濟情況謝謝主計長我想本席在這裡要求就是審計部跟主計總處分別針對的就是剛才提出的一個議題在一個院內提出書面報告給本席好謝謝委員好謝謝現在質詢請李燕秀議員"},{"start":674.014,"end":674.056,"text":"謝謝教授"}]}},{"id":"149755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690392e2a3133432d93133e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a61fefedc7491e725d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:04:14 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10:15:50","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":696,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:15:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:04:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時4分）謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請自來水公司董事長。"],["主席：請自來水公司董事長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請台電公司。"],["主席：請台電公司。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，物價讓大家都滿緊張的，因為通膨，物價在升高，國發會主委也說電價調漲確實會推升物價上漲，而且還不包括間接效果。你認同國發會主委這句話嗎？"],["王部長美花：就電價與物價部分，我們各個機關都會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：電價漲物價也會漲，對不對？"],["王部長美花：我們各個機關都會謹慎看待……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你知道嗎？怎麼看待？"],["王部長美花：我們都會很謹慎來看待。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謹慎看待表示你也知道國發會主委所說的，電價調漲確實會推升物價調漲？"],["王部長美花：有相關的經濟模型……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：相關？所以你也知道電價漲物價會漲，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是？好，所以我們方向一致才能夠討論。剛剛有委員提到台水董事長說要調高水費，有這回事嗎？"],["王部長美花：目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：董事長，有沒有？"],["王部長美花：目前沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長你說沒有我放心，但董事長會這麼說嗎？有嗎？這是政策性問題，你有說嗎？"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，媒體有在關心這個議題，那我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有說嗎？你有說今年要調漲水價嗎？"],["李董事長嘉榮：沒有！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有？我願意給你自清的機會，因為我不認為你會這麼大膽說出這樣的話！現在物價漲得太恐怖了，通膨太恐怖了，所以大家一直在協助……"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你沒說？"],["李董事長嘉榮：是！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以要還你清白！你講沒有，部長也說沒有，因此我們可以放心，水費不會漲！好，你請回座。","接下來我們討論電的問題。部長，剛剛說電如果漲，物價會漲，你也認同，3月7日衛福部取消全國醫療院所掛號費漲價上限，以致醫療院所立馬喊漲。可見只要政府有決策，大家都會應對上來，所以4月份電價要全面調漲的訊息一出來，物價就已經開始漲了！我們去問：為什麼會漲？他說因為政府說下個月要漲。有確定要漲，部長？下個月會漲嗎？"],["王部長美花：目前電價審議會都在審理當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所送的資料是要漲的！"],["王部長美花：目前因為我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所送的資料是不是要漲？"],["王部長美花：我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，你告訴我原則就好，我們來討論。"],["王部長美花：我們第一個優先爭取補貼，第二個就相關方案……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府有沒有告訴你要補貼多少？因為我們全力支持你啊！"],["王部長美花：是，但是因為他還……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：把第一項做完整就好了，物價就不會再漲了！"],["王部長美花：因為他……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：錢也不會亂掉啊！"],["王部長美花：他還在算，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候告訴我們政府要補貼多少？"],["王部長美花：我們也希望他儘快告訴我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的儘快是多快？"],["王部長美花：因為這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的儘快是多少？這個月底會不會告訴我們？"],["王部長美花：這個是院的決策，應該會告訴我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院的決策什麼時候會？因為月底就要電價審議，委員會要審……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可不可以告訴我們？下個禮拜前能不能告訴我們你所溝通的？我們全力支持，不然我們去拜託行政院也沒有關係，全部都做你的後盾，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一個，把你的方案執行到位，電就不用漲了，尤其民生用電330度以下本席一直堅持不能漲！不能漲！不能漲！這是很嚴肅的議題，所以我講三次！下個禮拜能不能告訴我們？行政院超徵那麼多稅收，那都是我們人民的納稅錢，拿來補貼台電是公道的，而且這樣可以直接讓人民得到公道！下禮拜可不可以告訴我們行政院到底會補貼多少？"],["王部長美花：這件事我們會趕快跟行政院確認。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你就說趕快，所以我還給你多一點時間……"],["王部長美花：是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下禮拜前告訴我們，針對目前的危機，行政院到底要補貼台電多少，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：需要多少預算，不算補貼，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下禮拜前告訴我們，好不好？方案也告訴我們。"],["王部長美花：我們也很希望。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也很希望？所以你趕快加油啊！"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好？真有需要，我本人願意去拜託行政院，我都願意！為了人民我都願意！"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下禮拜前告訴我們，政府到底要補貼台電多少，好不好？屆時我們再實質討論。依照您所送的版本，20年來沒有針對小用戶調升，但這一次都要調，換句話說，民生用電至少調5%，這是19年來最高的！政府部門告訴我們，如果調漲電價就會推升物價，大家真的剉咧等，真的剉咧等，這要怎麼辦？"],["王部長美花：其實台電已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我告訴你，如果電價漲10%，那麼CPI受影響0.12%！再加上間接的因素，CPI會漲0.2%到0.3%，這些數字都是公開透明的！如果因此讓CPI迅速上升到2%，這句話很嚴肅，它會觸及到通膨的警戒線！部長，你有沒有憂心啊？人家國防部長都說他煩惱到晚上睡不著，你有沒有憂心啊？你有沒有憂心觸及到通膨警戒線？你有沒有憂心？有沒有憂心？"],["王部長美花：我們各部門確實都很努力減緩臺灣的通膨，過去這兩、三年，委員應該也看得到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這樣回答表示你也憂心？憂心就要有實質作為。我請教，像傳統產業本來就要倒了，你再給他漲，他倒了就爬不起來了！我曾經告訴你：拜託，支持我們的產業，支持我們的產業，不能倒！不能讓傳統產業倒，倒了就糟糕了！"],["王部長美花：我們會很用心……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這種情況下，你的配套是什麼？你怎麼協助他？你的配套是什麼？"],["王部長美花：對產業部分，看怎麼樣趕快讓他減碳，政府以預算讓他更改設備，讓他更節能經費。還有，我們一直希望企業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：短期間內緩不濟急，我們循序漸進……"],["王部長美花：只要換了，電費馬上就減少了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席還是要拜託你，傳統產業不要漲！330度以下的民生用電不要漲……"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們要穩住民生……"],["王部長美花：我們會幾個方向一起做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：穩住物價，對不對？一起來做，配套給我……"],["王部長美花：幾個方向我們都會一起來做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，我們看不到漲價之後，你們要怎麼支持傳統產業的配套方案，讓他們能夠屹立不搖、不能倒！請把詳細的書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我已經問到第三次，我還得不到你口中所說的配套措施，只告訴我們會一起來維護，怎麼維護？"],["王部長美花：不會、不會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你把詳細的書面資料給本席。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要求瓦斯不能漲，因為這觸及全國每一家都要用到，是你最能直接照顧到的，你能不能答應我？在年底以前瓦斯、桶裝瓦斯不能漲，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，桶裝瓦斯……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你答應不漲，我也給你讚許……"],["王部長美花：我們有特別照顧……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：330度以下的民生用電請不要漲，傳統產業不要漲，你去盤點，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：配套要拿出來給我。接下來本席要跟你討論的是關鍵技術清單，在14奈米以下製程、IC技術方面，我們看到美國已經傳出要求日本、荷蘭加強對中國祭出半導體的出口管制措施。部長，在這種情況之下，我們要如何去保護我國優勢產業並兼顧產業發展目標？要怎麼樣擴大，要怎麼樣去保護我們的產業？世界各國都在保護，我們怎麼辦？你的方案是什麼？"],["王部長美花：第一個，與關鍵技術相關的，我們都有在討論；第二個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在還在討論？人家都已經在執行當中了！你應該針對怎麼樣去防堵這些技術的不當外流，要怎麼樣強化審查流程，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是的，這個我們其實也都有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有在討論、強化審查流程嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們隨時都在跟國際合作，至於內部的審查流程，也都有做內部討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：內部討論是什麼？怎麼加強審查？"],["王部長美花：有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把詳細的書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個涉及到比較細緻的問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你把詳細的書面資料給本席好了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，循環經濟，這是大家都在討論的議題。本席請問，聯合國、世界各國都在做循環經濟，所以我們要跟國際接軌、配合。但你的執行率，2021年到2023年3年3,556萬8,000元，你看看你的成績指標，成績指標、學術成就、論文：0！技術創新、智慧財產：0！技術創新、辦理技術研討會：一場！經濟效益、促進廠商投資件數：一件！更新或新增的資料庫30筆，這樣的計畫，KPI是低到不能再低了，本席請教部長，你滿意嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員，這個字有點小，我回去確認一下，再跟委員說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫做字有點小？我已經口頭將數字明明白白地告訴你了，你訂定這樣的KPI，你滿意嗎？"],["王部長美花：這部分我們再檢討……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你回去拿你的放大鏡好好看清楚，這是你在執行的業務，你還給我說字比較小？不能如此，好好去檢討，全世界的方向，我們的KPI都是0！只有一件1，你的更新資料30筆，你滿意嗎？請你回去用放大鏡看清楚，告訴本席你滿意嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不滿意，趕快改進之，跟世界接軌好不好？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢，謝謝部長。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：謝謝。接下來請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷"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那我們各個機關都會很謹慎來看待 是表示你也知道國防會主委所說的電價調漲確實會推升物價調漲"},{"start":64.645,"end":88.778,"text":"他有相關的這個模型經濟的模型所以你也知道電價漲物價會漲對不對是是喔好那所以我們的方向一致我們才能夠討論那當然有委員說有我們臺水的董事長說要調調高這個水費有這回事嗎董事長有沒有目前董事長你說沒有我放心董事長你會這麼說嗎有嗎"},{"start":91.497,"end":100.422,"text":"這個是政策性的問題你有說嗎?跟委員報告是媒體有在關心這個議題你有說嗎?你有說今年要調漲水價嗎?沒有你沒有齁?我願意給你置信的機會嗎?因為我不認為你會這麼大"},{"start":112.587,"end":127.322,"text":"這麼大膽的說出這樣的話因為現在是物價漲得太恐怖了通貨太恐怖了所以大家一直在協助嘛所以你沒說嘛對 要還你清白嘛沒有 那部長也說沒有所以我們放心"},{"start":128.419,"end":153.17,"text":"水會不會漲?你請回座接下來我們討論電的問題因為部長我們剛剛說了電如果漲物價會漲你也認同那3月7日衛福部才說取消全國醫療院所的掛號費漲價的上限那所以呢馬上所以醫療院所立馬還漲這個是只要政府有一個決策"},{"start":155.151,"end":170.665,"text":"大家都會應對上來所以4月份電價要全面調漲的訊息一出來就已經開始有物價在漲我們問了為什麼會漲?他說因為政府說下個月要漲那麼有確定要漲嗎?不漲?下個月會漲嗎?目前的這個電價審議會都在審理當中那你所送的資料是要漲的?"},{"start":181.625,"end":188.247,"text":"目前因為我們 因為我們第一個優先爭取補貼 第二個就相關的方案我們總是要準備第一項把它做完整就好了"},{"start":202.39,"end":209.772,"text":"你都不會再物價漲啊!錢還在亂掉啊!什麼時候會告訴我們政府要補貼多少?你的儘快是多快?這個月底會不會告訴我們?對!那院的決策什麼時候會?因為這個月底就要店家審議嘛委員會要審啊!"},{"start":227.383,"end":250.927,"text":"那可不可以告訴我們下個禮拜前能不能告訴我們你所溝通的我們全力支持啊不然我們去拜託行政院都沒有關係啊全部做你的後盾好不好第一個你的方案執行到位電就不要漲了民生用電330度以下本席一直堅持不能漲不能漲不能漲很嚴肅的議題所以我漲了三次下個禮拜能不能告訴我們行政院告訴我們"},{"start":257.415,"end":267.09,"text":"議員：楊瓔"},{"start":267.895,"end":290.374,"text":"那下個禮拜可不告訴我們行政院到底會補貼我們多少?可不可以?這個部分我們會來跟行政院趕快確認這件事情部長你都說趕快啊所以我還給你多點時間啊下個禮拜前告訴我們到底行政院針對目前的危機他到底要給台電補貼多少好不好分多少預算來不算補貼啦"},{"start":293.456,"end":293.736,"text":"我本人願意!"},{"start":305.632,"end":332.717,"text":"去拜託行政院我都願意為人民我都願意下個禮拜前告訴我們政府到底要補貼給台電多少好不好我們再實質討論創了19個月如果依照您所送的版本我們20年來沒有調生的小用戶在這一次你都要調那換句話說民生用電至少調5%那也是19年來最高的最高的"},{"start":333.502,"end":340.728,"text":"政府部門都告訴我們如果調漲電價就會推升物價我們真的存在等呢這要怎麼辦所以我告訴你如果電價漲10%那麼你的CPI0.12%再加上間接的CPI會漲到0.2%到0.3%"},{"start":357.01,"end":382.483,"text":"這個數字都是公開透明的那如果因此呢會讓我們現在迅速增到上升到2%他會觸及到這一句話很嚴肅他會觸及到通膨的警戒線部長你有沒有憂心啊人家那個國防部長啊都說他煩惱的晚上睡不著那你有沒有憂心啊你有沒有憂心觸及到通膨的警戒線"},{"start":384.195,"end":398.321,"text":"你有沒有憂心?有沒有憂心?我們確實各部門確實都很努力讓臺灣的通膨來減緩我想過去這兩三年委員應該也看得到你這麼回答也表示你憂心憂心我要實質作為我要請教傳統產業你給它漲價它就要倒了你再給它漲它倒了就爬不起來了啦"},{"start":408.314,"end":413.81,"text":"所以我們現在我曾經告訴你拜託支持我們的產業支持我們的產業"},{"start":414.932,"end":420.553,"text":"您不能做啦!傳統產業不能做啦!做得糟糕啦!所以在這樣的情況下,您的配套是什麼?您怎麼協助他?您的配套是什麼?短期間的緩不濟急!我們循循漸進!對!我們循循漸進!所以!"},{"start":444.212,"end":473.309,"text":"本席還是拜託你拜託你啦傳統三甲你不可以去啦三百三十多億的民生用電你不可以去啦好不好因為你要穩住我們的民生啊穩住我們的物價啊對不對一起來做配套給我我們到目前為止看不到你要怎麼支持漲價之後傳統產業的配套方案在哪裡讓他們能夠屹立不搖不能倒"},{"start":474.485,"end":494.71,"text":"你詳細書面資料給本席,好不好?我已經問了第三次我還得不到你口中所說的配套措施只告訴我們一起來維護,怎麼維護?請你把書面資料詳細給本席本席要求垃圾不要去因為這是觸及整個全國每一家都要用到"},{"start":495.731,"end":512.147,"text":"你最能夠直接照顧你能不能答應我在年底以前我們的瓦斯統統瓦斯燈瓦斯不能漲好不好是我們統統瓦斯你答應不要漲我也給你暫許好不好我們一家有330度以下的民生用電請不要漲傳統產業不要漲你就盤點啊"},{"start":516.551,"end":516.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":546.391,"end":566.476,"text":"﹗"},{"start":566.696,"end":578.851,"text":"防堵這些的技術不當外流你要怎麼樣去強化你的審查流程是的 對不對這個我們其實也都有跟國際合作我們都隨時在跟國際合作那內部的審查流程也都有內部在討論"},{"start":583.456,"end":584.256,"text":"最後一個議題循環經濟天地溫這是大家都最在討論的議題所以本席要請問"},{"start":602.577,"end":613.746,"text":"大家全世界聯合國世界各國都在做循環經濟的概念我們也配合我們跟國際接軌你的執行率你看2021年到2023年3年3556萬8千元你看看你的成績指標"},{"start":621.38,"end":638.94,"text":"你的成績指標,你的學術成績有入文,零技術創新智慧財產,零技術創新辦理技術研討會,一場經濟效益促進廠商投資的建築一件更新會新增的這個資料庫比例"},{"start":639.952,"end":647.295,"text":"三十筆那這樣的計畫是低到不能再低的KPI本期請教部長你滿意嗎?你滿意嗎?委員這個字有點小齁我回去確認一下再跟委員做什麼叫字有點小我已經口頭已經數字明明白白的告訴你了"},{"start":659.139,"end":670.367,"text":"你定定的這樣的KPI你滿意嗎?你好好回去,拿你的放大鏡看清楚這是你在執行的業務欸你還跟我說字比較小"},{"start":671.496,"end":671.536,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903dfe2713a715715ff96e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a6e719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:01:36 - 10:12:26","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":650,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:12:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:01:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長，謝謝。"],["主席：請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：沈委員，你好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，委員長你好。我還在民間的時候常常參與國外的活動，所以很常遇到僑委會。我覺得對於國人來講，畢竟有很多事務都是由外交部負責，所以很多人都會認為我們為什麼還需要僑委會？我今天藉由這些問題讓僑委會跟國人說明，現在僑委會的工作到底是什麼。第一個，我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國，畢竟中國也有類似的僑務工作，2018年中國就把僑務工作弄到統戰部了，也就是說，現在這變成是他們統戰的一環，統戰原本就是中國的事務，跟我們沒有什麼關係，但中國對於海外的臺灣人也納入他們的統戰範圍，所以現在必須講，除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應合，成為統戰的對象之外，其實海外完全是第二戰場。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：這幾次我們就發現，譬如在我們政治人物訪美等等的時候發現，中國可能以大使館那一邊，他們可能會去動員一些他們的人，但他們的僑務工作也可能會統戰我們的人民，到那邊去做一些抗議的活動，所以在那邊會變成有點中國人、臺灣人不分的問題出現，有點是被統戰了，畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委會的核心業務比較有關係，不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：隨著這20年來中國的海外移民越來越多，中國的長臂管轄確實也把範圍越伸越大，尤其近年來我們發現，在疫情前後都有制度性跟組織性的狀況發生，我們也都很密切的蒐集各種情資，瞭解這有沒有滲入到我們相關的僑團裡面，到目前為止，我們都沒有具體看到中國的僑辦把手直接伸到臺灣的相關僑團裡面，倒是對於中國移民的控制、監控是越趨嚴格的狀態，甚至也波及到那些早年、一百多年前的傳統僑社，他們可能無端的在一些資訊上面被波及到。"],["沈委員伯洋：記得前陣子在加州教會也發生一些恐怖攻擊，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：他們也是針對我們海外的同胞，可能長期以來對他們滲透，也有一些微信群組等等之類的，在長期接受這些中國製造的消息之後，他們越來越覺得，他們不只認為臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人，認為在海外的臺獨分子也是敵人，所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沈委員提示的確實是一個很大且我們該注意的事項，所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁要快速掌握，在各個不同僑團中如果有一些假訊息，或者有一些中國不當滲透的資訊，要快速的在2個小時內進行回報的一些SOP作業，就是不希望臺灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外被中國統戰，造成一些錯誤的行為。去年發生了一件很不幸的案件，我們也覺得這件事情……這個當事人是參加了統促黨的相關周邊社團活動，因此我們也提高警覺，提醒所有僑團注意類似狀況，如果有類似這樣的訊息時，請他們可以提供給我們僑務祕書，讓僑務祕書可以進行瞭解跟通報，這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊，讓這種悲劇不要再發生。"],["沈委員伯洋：很高興有這樣的預警機制，對中國來講，他們做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的，譬如說我們看到他們有假消息的散播，或者一些謠言的散播，如果能夠即時，剛剛講到是兩小時嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果有這樣的通報，我們就會知道他們的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：當然他們還會有一些更軟性的措施，譬如說跟經濟相關的，他們想要用一帶一路等等這些方式，是一些比較軟性的，然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞，再慢慢的做一些剛剛講的滲透工作。除了剛剛講的虛假訊息、謠言之外，這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的機制，可能也是我們要掌握的。不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面，在中國措施的反制或者說監測的方向是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：中國運用和平統一促進會這樣的模式，確實在各個國家、各個地區的僑團不斷的去設立，也不乏有傳統的僑民、中國僑民跟部分的臺灣僑民去參加，確實是有的，剛剛講的那個例子就是他在拉斯維加斯，長期都有很多錯誤的資訊。針對用經濟手段來執行的，在疫情前可以說是達到高峰，疫情當中就逐漸緩步下來，近年雖然還是持續有用一帶一路的這種倡議，希望能夠拉攏海外的勢力跟僑團，但是我們有觀察到，由於經濟的消漲跟美中的貿易戰、經濟戰、科技戰等趨勢變化，看起來這方面的運作有轉趨低調的型態，但是我們都高度提醒我們的僑民、臺商，如果這方面可能有人提出想要跟他們合作的訴求時，希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息。到目前為止，確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結，他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝委員的解釋。禮拜一我跟國安局長討論的時候，也發現這樣的一個現象，他們在統戰的資源跟他們放假消息這方面的資源，其實有一點此消彼長的關係。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：在疫情的時候因為經濟疲弱，對他們來講要進行這種海外的統戰，在經濟上用錢砸下去，變得越來越不容易。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是兩個方向，第一個就是放假消息，這個對它來講非常容易，沒有什麼成本；另外一個是去擴張它執法的權力，剛剛前面提到他們擴張司法權。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛好下一個我想問的問題，因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高，就是這種海外警察的設置，這件事情當然它比較偏向是中國對全世界管轄權的擴張。目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情，有影響到臺灣僑胞的不管是安全，甚至他的言論自由等等之類的案例？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們唯一有一個案例就是，我在去年已經報告過，巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心，由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好，所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過，FB也連續被攻擊了4次。但是從第一次發生以後，我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案，因此法國警察也積極追查，確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾，所以後來這個被鎖定以後，他們後續就沒有再受到這樣的干擾。","但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺，在全球各地這樣的狀況，資訊或者是網站，或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在。所以我們派駐各地的僑務秘書，我們也都給他們進行相關的課程，提醒他們要有一些這樣子的意識，提高警覺，能夠隨時掌握，各地如果有一些對岸、中國的團體新設立，他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的名義之下，但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者相關的官方單位並執行監控當地中國僑民，這是他們主要的目標，連帶地透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我覺得從2023年下半年開始，他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少，但是不管是這種假消息、謠言以及司法權的擴張，大概最近做得比較多，所以對於未來的工作來講，針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響，有可能反而要特別提高警覺，這是我的一個簡單建議。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來，剛剛講到我們海外其實大家都蠻團結的，會回報訊息、中國各式各樣的一些可疑活動，但是畢竟還是會遇到一些我們的僑務委員可能跟中國有些頻繁的互動，甚至去參與活動。我有看到這個須知，我知道他們做這個工作也是辛苦，我們在須知上面特別提到不能夠再參加相關的活動，但我不知道僑務委員會未來會不會有更嚴厲的一些措施，或者有更強硬的牙齒，可以讓他們不要去做這樣的事情，雖然它是少數的個案。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求，他不能跟對岸進行任何官方直接的公開接觸，或私下也都不行。確實在2014年的那個過程當中，馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國進行官方接觸，後來這些都被開除僑務委員的這個職稱，也沒有給他職務了。我們對於類似這種榮譽職，雖然沒有給他們任何薪資或者是任何硬性的規範，可是我們在提醒上面都一再說，做生意是一回事，但是要注意對岸的統戰，不要跟他們官方有任何具體公開的接觸。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝沈委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":4.384718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":67.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.04034375,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.18971875000001,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.64784375000002,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.74909375000001,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1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問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張"},{"start":442.799,"end":451.753,"text":"那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢"},{"start":453.169,"end":477.065,"text":"我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案"},{"start":478.025,"end":483.868,"text":"因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在"},{"start":506.238,"end":506.318,"text":"委員長沈伯洋"},{"start":521.232,"end":542.373,"text":"各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作"},{"start":546.209,"end":561.62,"text":"因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能"},{"start":562,"end":562.12,"text":"委員長徐佳青"},{"start":579.087,"end":579.487,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋"},{"start":599.438,"end":620.983,"text":"我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除"},{"start":623.323,"end":623.543,"text":"謝謝委員長：謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69030fa7c6744b04e785b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:58:03 - 10:09:49","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":706,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:09:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:58:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時58分）主席，有請陳審計長跟朱主計長。"],["主席：請陳審計長及朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：我先請問陳審計長。審計長，最近臺中市政府左手賣土地，右手又降稅，之前在109年的時候調降公告地價20.06%，本席粗估了一下，1年的稅收至少少收了17億多，這8年至少少收136億啦！然後又說沒有錢，所以它要賣土地，今年又賣了86億，如果再加上之前的話，總共已經賣出了超過1,750億的土地！這裡頭有一個問題，審計長，你有沒有去想一想，這個土地的處分方式難道只有販售而已嗎？難道沒有其他的方式嗎？譬如聯合開發，或地上權等等，你有沒有去約束過這些地方政府處分土地的一些作為，或者瞭解它的比例、有沒有帶動周邊土地的一個炒作的可能？審計長請說。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們多多少少都在瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：多多少少都在瞭解，但到底多還是少啊？多多少少都在瞭解！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：監察院也成立了，整個把這個土地的收入……"],["郭委員國文：你是審計部啊，你跟我扯到監察院，我現在問你啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他要我的資料啊！"],["郭委員國文：你到底有沒有統計啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們在歸納啊！"],["郭委員國文：你歸納？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：嗯。"],["郭委員國文：我問你，你才會歸納，那你平常都沒有在歸納嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：……監察院要我們……"],["郭委員國文：我就問你嘛，你手頭上3年以來地方政府出售土地的方式、比例、坪數、價格對社會所造成的影響，有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有？對啊！就是沒有嘛！所以多多少少……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是都個案，剛剛委員提醒我要有整體性，謝謝，我會……"],["郭委員國文：對，站在審計部的高位當中，你要去思考這樣的土地處理方式只有單一的販售土地，是不是有圖利特定對象的嫌疑，甚或帶動地方的土地炒作的可能。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會做，因為委員今天的質詢……"],["郭委員國文：臺中市政府做了一個非常錯誤的範例，該收的稅金不收，要去當好人，然後結果最後就販售土地，搞不好A土地跟B土地，賣了A土地帶動了B土地的價格，你有沒有去思考這個問題？審計長，你怎麼處理這些問題？接著你有沒有可能，好，你都沒有做統計的話，那本席要求你，你看是要做這3年來或5年來，地方政府處理土地的坪數、方式及金額到底造成什麼樣的社會影響，可不可以做一份報告給本席？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，委員的建議非常的好。"],["郭委員國文：然後呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就做啊！"],["郭委員國文：多久啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為是全面性的，你給我一點時間。"],["郭委員國文：1個月可以不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：1個月太短。"],["郭委員國文：什麼太少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：太少了！因為現在我的人都在外面查帳。"],["郭委員國文：那一個半月、一個半月，一個半月可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多要……"],["郭委員國文：好，一個半月。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要6月底，6月底啦！"],["郭委員國文：太久了吧！6月底，現在3月，你跟我扯6月底。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要解決一個事情，我們還是要深入。"],["郭委員國文：2個月，然後連同改善的方式也都幫我處理出來，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，那就6月底……"],["郭委員國文：你要有一些行政作為喔！我等著喔，我眼睛要擦亮一點等著看你有什麼行政作為喔！","換主計長，審計長請回。"],["主席：審計長請回座。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，剛剛也有委員在問有關於前瞻第5期的部分，本席問你，會不會編？"],["朱主計長澤民：目前並沒有說不編。"],["郭委員國文：目前並沒有說不編，目前也沒有說要編。"],["朱主計長澤民：按照正常應該是要編，因為……"],["郭委員國文：正常應該要編？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為那個前瞻的條例就已經規定是8,400億，分期編列。"],["郭委員國文：對，8,400億，我們還有700億嘛，到明年的8月還有700億嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，704億。"],["郭委員國文：對，還有大概704億嘛，然後聽說是不是因為顧慮520的狀況，所以現在還沒有拍板定案。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！這個跟選舉……"],["郭委員國文：沒有？本來就應該要編了嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們是例行性的，那個各部會提出他們的需求……"],["郭委員國文：好，例行性的8個項目都要編啦，但是本席要提醒你一個部分，過往因為地方的財政問題、配合款的問題或諸多計畫提出的問題的結果，變成有特定的縣市別拿到比較多的前瞻預算，你有沒有做過這種統計？"],["朱主計長澤民：有關各縣市的分配，我們可以提供一份資料給委員。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，不用，本席大概稍微有瞭解了，過往我們一直強調所謂的南北平衡啦，但事實上就結果來說，其實只有北高平衡，南北哪有平衡！臺南在前瞻計畫的軌道運輸才拿到1億多而已，拜託喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：我也不會對臺南特別不好……"],["郭委員國文：特別不好！但就結果來說就不好啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我是臺南人啦，對不對？"],["郭委員國文：對啊，你也知道，那你還敢說你臺南人，你是白河人，我怎麼會不知道你是白河人，問題是……"],["朱主計長澤民：對啊，白河水庫我也給了20億。"],["郭委員國文：問題是你應該稍微再公平一點嘛，總共來說的話，軌道運輸才拿到1億多！"],["朱主計長澤民：白河水庫也給了20億啊！"],["郭委員國文：我是說你在第5期的部分有沒有思考一下，前面4期分配多的叫他們不要再來要了，可不可以啊？留一些給別人嘛！對不對？要達到真正的南北平衡嘛，有沒有可能？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那我也希望臺南市所提出來的計畫能夠完整一點，能夠受到中央各主管部會的同意。"],["郭委員國文：對，待會會後你就可以打電話給黃偉哲。"],["朱主計長澤民：好、好、好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，就是這些問題嘛，你要考慮到一個區域平衡發展嘛，不是誰來申請你就送給他嘛，你要考量一下誰拿的比較多、誰拿的比較少，前瞻計畫8,400億都集中在少部分縣市，哪有這種道理，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，尊重委員。"],["郭委員國文：這是前瞻的目的嗎？主計長，麻煩你注意一下，可不可以？"],["朱主計長澤民：是這樣，應該。"],["郭委員國文：還有啦，還有很多問題要跟你請教。"],["朱主計長澤民：不敢。"],["郭委員國文：有關於CPI的部分，不要說你跟央行比較啦，就跟您個人之前的預估，2022年的時候你預估2023年是1.86%，但2023年實際值是2.5%，所以誤差值大概是25%。民生CPI今年2月是降到3.26%，但是月購CPI還是一樣上升到4%，那你預估今年是1.64%，但是我要跟您提醒的是，目前相關的國際情勢並沒有改變，戰爭如果持續進行，預計這種CPI還是會持續發生的情況底下，民生的CPI似乎也應該公布一下，讓大家會比較瞭解，這是第一點。第二個部分，影響這個CPI的部分，我們過去有一些作為，包括刪營業稅、關稅等等免稅的方式，到3月底「黃小玉」等等就已經要到期了，可是我所瞭解到的是，好像到現在為止穩定物價小組都還沒有開會，就你瞭解的狀況如何？"],["朱主計長澤民：有啦，都有定期開會。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候開會？"],["朱主計長澤民：都有定期開會……"],["郭委員國文：定期開會，可是到現在3月底已經要到期了耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：下禮拜開會。"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜？什麼時候？"],["朱主計長澤民：下禮拜，20號。"],["郭委員國文：20號，那您的主張怎麼樣？你覺得這個免稅……"],["朱主計長澤民：那個我們要去看經濟部的報告以及……"],["郭委員國文：你會不會希望「黃小玉」免關稅的部分持續進行？"],["朱主計長澤民：……財政部的情況，那個召集人是鄭副院長，我想他會做一個……"],["郭委員國文：我知道、我知道，我的問題是說你看到這些CPI的數字，你會不會建議說為了避免CPI繼續攀升，相關的一些免稅作為應該持續？"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦，那個大家可以討論，然後鄭副院長會做出恰當的裁示。"],["郭委員國文：數字你最瞭解了，我在問你的態度嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦，我的態度沒那麼重要，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：你的態度很關鍵啦，主計長，這時候你又變得不重要了，整個趨勢你最瞭解啊，我是希望你要考量到CPI持續攀升的狀況底下，政府該作為的應該要持續啦，我這樣建議您啦。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，另外一個部分，同樣也是CPI的部分，你今年開始有公布所謂的高齡CPI嘛……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["郭委員國文：高齡CPI最關鍵的其實是有關於社會給付，特別是高齡項目部分所編列的預算，我看到是高達1兆1,357億。我請問你一下，你這1兆1,357億的部分是按照CPI的部分，還是用高齡CPI的部分來編列的？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是按照一般的CPI，不過我要跟委員報告，如果高齡CPI按照各國的話，有時候會下降，像油價高漲的時候……"],["郭委員國文：我們可不可以訂一個擇優處理啊？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個可以考慮。"],["郭委員國文：可以啊，因為你就是要給付嘛，你給付的精神就是要照顧人民、照顧高齡嘛。"],["朱主計長澤民：不過跟委員報告，我們只是提這些指數出來，因為您這個圖裡面講的老農津貼、國民年金、公保給付等等，都有各自的主管機關，也有各自的法令，我不能夠……"],["郭委員國文：你要交給個別主管機關認定，但是預算編列是在你的手上啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我沒有那麼大權力啦，我不能用預算編列去管人家的政策啦！"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我算過啦，其實依照老農津貼的話，老農津貼是可以增加的，我有算過啦，你自己私底下再算一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：我建議你針對這個部分能不能從高齡CPI的部分來做一個思考，可以跟各部會討論一下，可不可以？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["郭委員國文：好，接下來要談的是實質薪資連續4年下降，連續4年耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：應該沒有4年啦，我可以跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：我算起來是連續4年下降耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們在這個是……"],["郭委員國文：我算一算，從最近的名目薪資再到CPI算起來，實質薪資一樣持續下滑。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們最近8年的實質薪資增加532元，相對前一個8年……"],["郭委員國文：最近8年加532元，你覺得這是很驕傲的數字嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：相對前一個8年只有增加82元。"],["郭委員國文：沒有啊，你這個數字跟我的數字差很多，我們會後可能要好好討論一下！"],["朱主計長澤民：我會把這些……"],["郭委員國文：8年只增加532元，你還講那麼大聲！"],["朱主計長澤民：可是上一個8年實質、實質……"],["郭委員國文：什麼上一個8年，我跟你算最近4年，你跟我算8年！而且你如果從所謂的……"],["朱主計長澤民：對不起，那個是平均每年啦！"],["郭委員國文：如果從月購CPI來算的話，實質薪資搞不好還跌破4萬耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：不、不，不是，我講錯了，那個是平均每年五百三十幾塊啦！"],["郭委員國文：平均每年增加五百三十幾塊？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，532元是平均每年。"],["郭委員國文：好，我們會後來核算數字啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會把資料準備給委員。"],["郭委員國文：即便你每年增加五百三十幾塊，還是非常的稀少好不好！"],["朱主計長澤民：不是啦，相對前一個8年只有八十幾塊……"],["郭委員國文：相對前面的8年，好啦，你要比前面8年，但我在比現在實質的感受跟生活上的所需啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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省議長你有沒有去想一想啊 這個土地的處分方式難道只有販售而已嗎"},{"start":63.67,"end":79.304,"text":"難道沒有其他的方式嗎?比如講聯合開發啦或地商權啦等等你有沒有去約束過這些地方政府這處分土地的一些作為或者是了解他的比例或者帶動了周邊有沒有土地的一個炒作的可能?主席 沈議長請說"},{"start":81.367,"end":108.507,"text":"這個部分我們多多少少都在瞭解多多少少都在瞭解我看到底多還是少啊多多少少的瞭解監察院他們的誠意整個把這個土地都收住了你要審計部啊你要跟我扯到監察院我現在問你看你到底有沒有統計啊這個部分我們在歸納啊歸納我有問你你才會歸納那你平常都沒有在歸納"},{"start":111.018,"end":127.337,"text":"我就問你嘛你手上有沒有3年以來地方政府出售土地的方式比例、坪數、價格對社會所造成的影響有沒有這個部分沒有沒有對啊就是沒有嘛所以多多少少"},{"start":128.672,"end":152.853,"text":"就是都夠按剛剛委員提醒我要有整體性對謝謝我會站在審計部的高位當中你要去思考這樣的土地處理方式只有單一的販售土地是不是有土地特定對象的一個嫌疑或帶動地方的這個土地的炒作的可能我們會做因為委員的台中市政府做一個非常錯誤的範例"},{"start":155.081,"end":164.315,"text":"該收的稅金他不收他要當好人然後結果就會販售土地搞不好A土地B土地賣了A土地帶動了B土地的價格你有沒有去思考這個問題"},{"start":166.636,"end":192.717,"text":"所以,市長,那你怎麼處理這些問題?這接著你有沒有可能,好,你都沒有做統計的話,那本席要求你啊,你看要做這3年來或5年來地方政府處理土地的這個坪數,還有方式,還有金額,到底是造成什麼樣的社會影響,可不可以做一份報告給本席?可以,這個委員的建議非常的好。然後呢?就做啊。啊,多久啊?"},{"start":194.926,"end":216.676,"text":"這個因為是前面性的你給我一點時間一個月可以不可以一個月什麼太少一個半月一個半月一個半月可以不差不多要六月底六月底啦太久了吧六月底現在三月你先給我六月底我們還是要深入兩個月然後連同改善的方式也都幫我處理出來好不好"},{"start":218.256,"end":220.677,"text":"有關於前三、五期的部分本期問你會不會編?"},{"start":239.252,"end":254.705,"text":"目前並沒有說不編目前並沒有說不編目前也沒有說要編那應該按照正常的是要編正常應該要編因為那個前瞻的那個條例就已經講說是8400億對8400億我們還有700億嘛到明年的8月還有700億對704億對還有這個704億嘛然後聽說是不是孤立什麼520的狀況"},{"start":263.972,"end":289.298,"text":"所以說到現在還沒有排版定案沒有啦 這個本來就應該要編了嘛例行性的八個項目都要編啦但是本席要提醒你一個部分喔 是的過往因為地方的這個財政問題配合款的問題或諸多計畫提出的問題的結果變成有特定的縣市別拿到比較多的前瞻預算你有沒有做過這種統計"},{"start":290.958,"end":311.958,"text":"呃我們在那個構縣市的那個分配我們有我們可以移分資料給委員我跟你講不用本期大概稍後會了解了過我們一直強調所謂的南北平衡但事實上呢就結果來說呢其實只有北高平衡南北哪有平衡台南的前瞻計畫軌道運輸都拿了一鍋而已也拜託的我也不會"},{"start":313.219,"end":334.332,"text":"對於臺南特別那個 特別不好 因為我就是臺南人啊 我就是臺南人啊 對不對對啊 你也知道啦 你還敢說你臺南人是白人 我不知道你白人 問題是 你也先給我批討一下嘛 總共來說的話 軌道運輸才拿到一億多 我是說你第5期的部分有沒有思考一下 前面四期分配很多 叫他們不要再來要了可不可以啊 對啊"},{"start":337.52,"end":339.962,"text":"對,你待會會後你就可以打電話給黃偉哲了"},{"start":354.551,"end":383.846,"text":"對阿就是這個問題嘛你要考慮到一個區域平衡發展嘛不是誰來申請你就送給他嘛你要考量一下誰拿的比較多誰拿的比較少然後前章計畫8400億都集中在少部分縣市的然後這種道理對不對是不是前章的這個目的嗎那個主席長麻煩你注意一下可不可以是這樣應該還有啦還有很多問題要跟你請教齁不敢這個有關於這個CPI的部分齁是的"},{"start":385.148,"end":391.193,"text":"不要說你跟央行比較啦我就跟你個人這個之前的預估2022年的時候你預估2023年的時候是1.86那2023年實際值是2.5%所以誤差值大概是25%"},{"start":402.503,"end":425.315,"text":"那明升的CPI今年是降到這個二月的降到3.26但是月購的CPI還是一樣上升到4那你今年預估是今年1.64但是我要跟您提醒的是說目前的這個相關的這個外國際的情勢並沒有改變戰爭如果持續進行"},{"start":427.156,"end":452.649,"text":"預計這種CPI還是會持續發生的情況底下民生的CPI是不是也應該公布一下讓大家會比較了解是第一啦第二個部分呢影響這個CPI的部分我們過去有一些作為包括三營業稅關稅等等的一個免稅的方式到3月底黃曉玉等等就已經要到期了可是我了解的部分好像到現在為止穩定物價小組都還沒有開會就了解狀況如何什麼時候開會"},{"start":456.031,"end":473.902,"text":"都有定期開會可是到現在3月底就要到期了餒下禮拜開會下禮拜什麼時候下禮拜20號20號那您的主張怎麼樣你覺得這個免稅那個是我們去看那個是他那個那你會不會希望這個王小玉這個免關稅的部分其實持續進行那個趙吉仁是"},{"start":480.046,"end":503.444,"text":"政府院長我想說他會做一個我問題是說你看到這些CPI的數字你會不會建議說為了避免這些CPI繼續攀升那相關的一些免稅的作為應該持續大家可以討論然後政府院長會做出沒有數字你最了解啦我在問你的態度嘛沒有啦我的態度沒那麼重要的謝謝你的態度很關鍵啦主席主席主席你都變得不重要了"},{"start":504.204,"end":521.416,"text":"那個整個趨勢你最了解啊我是希望說你要考量到CPI持續攀升的狀況底下政府該作為應該持續啦是的我這樣建議您啦謝謝好另外一個部分同樣的也是CPI的部分您今年開始有這個公布所謂的高廉CPI嘛是的"},{"start":522.136,"end":540.125,"text":"高齡CPI最關鍵的其實是有關於社會給付特別是高齡項目的部分所編列的預算我看到高達一兆1357億我請問你一下你這一兆1357億的部分是按照CPI的這個部分還是用高齡CPI的部分來編列的"},{"start":541.265,"end":553.033,"text":"這個是按照一般的CPI不過我要跟那個委員報告如果高齡CPI按照過國的話他有時候會下降他有時候會下降像油價高漲的時候那我們可不可以訂一個擇優處理啊"},{"start":558.978,"end":570.049,"text":"因為你就是要給付嘛你給付就是要照顧人民照顧高齡嘛不過各位委員報告我們只是提這些指示出來因為這個您剛才講的您這個圖案裡面的圖裡面講老農國民年輕官保給付"},{"start":574.073,"end":598.568,"text":"他有各自的主管機關他有各自的法令你要交給他個別主管機關在那邊但是預算編列是在你的手上啊我沒有那麼大權力啦我不能去預算編列政府人家政策啦其實依照老人津貼的話那個老農津貼的話他是可以增加的啦我有算過啦你自己私底下再算一下啦我建議說你這個部分能不能從一個高齡CPI的部分來做一個思考可以跟各部會來討論一下可不可以"},{"start":599.989,"end":607.003,"text":"是的好那接下來齁那個主委長這實質的薪資齁年續4年下降欸年續4年欸"},{"start":611.25,"end":637.823,"text":"應該沒有4年了我可以跟那個委員報告一下那個我們在這個是我算一算齁這個從最近的這個這個明目薪資再算一下CPI再算起來齁實質薪資齁一樣持續下降我們最近8年啦他的實質薪資增加532億元相對前一個8年最近8年加532億元你覺得這是很驕傲的數字嗎相對前一個8年只有增加82億只有增加82億"},{"start":638.763,"end":639.984,"text":"平均每年啦 平均每年"},{"start":659.264,"end":688.604,"text":"我這個月購CPI來算的話他實質薪資搞不好還跌破4萬欸不是不是我講錯了那個是平均每年530幾塊啦平均每年不是百年平均每年增加530幾塊對530平均每年我們會後來核斷數字啦即便你每年增加530幾塊還是非常的稀少好不好相對前面的8年只有80幾塊的相對前面的8年好了你要比前面的8年我再比現在實質的感受跟生活上的所需啦"},{"start":689.464,"end":689.484,"text":"謝謝!好謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903fc91a3f27130c0ef14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6e3b98117f6536c6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:57:56 - 10:06:40","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":524,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:06:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:57:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時58分）謝謝主席，我請部長跟職安署署長。"],["主席：請部長和署長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你是屏東人。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們屏東的人口80萬，其中農漁民將近38萬，其他就是勞工。對我們勞工來說，我不覺得勞動部對屏東有什麼好，部長，這個你要反省一下，要加強！","我今天要講的事你們大家都忘了，這件事情就是明揚大火，那個時候吵得沸沸揚揚，從去年9月到今天剛好快半年，大家都忘記了，我來喚起大家的回憶，不要公祭完就忘記了，10條人命、90幾個人受傷，我們都參與在裡面救人。我在這裡要講的是，屏東縣職災發生率是全臺灣第一名，是4.196%，臺灣平均是2點多，職安署你們有沒有在做事情？10條人命有4個是我們的消防員，我跟侯友宜去慰問的時候，家屬緊緊地拉著我的手說希望我們幫他們的忙，不要有下一個受害者。","現在有一個問題就是職安署這邊是用職業安全衛生法，對嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但公務人員、消防隊員是用公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，這個辦法什麼都不是嘛，也不是法，就是根據施行細則訂出來的規範、辦法。部長，這個你有辦法介入嗎？這個很重要喔！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實在大火發生以後，行政院都有召集相關的部會，從彼此的權責去看怎麼樣強化未來的防災管理，讓這樣一個悲劇不會再次發生，在消防員的部分，他們的防護就是由內政部權管，在消防法裡面參考我們一些職災保險或者職安法的相關規範去做職安專章，這部分行政院有責成內政部去把法制完善，並由我們來協助。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以他們的武器、裝備保養……但是他的人身呢？我覺得我們職安署做得比公家單位的公務人員還好，職安署……"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的垂詢。有關消防法，消防隊員確實在我們的國家法制裡面，他的安全是依照公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法來辦理，但是行政院有特別指示，因為這次明揚大火之後有關消防隊員的職安部分，有明確的指示要求由內政部在消防法中訂定職安專章，職安專章的法條目前消防署來找我們職安署，由我們提供建議的條文內容給他們參考，邏輯上就是消防隊員的職業安全要做風險評估，控制在救災，跟我們職安法的預防不太一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：給他們多一點保障啦！"],["鄒署長子廉：是！"],["蘇委員清泉：你看多少個消防弟兄沒命了，桃園、屏東也發生，這個大家受不了，十幾個家庭破碎啊！受傷的九十幾個，現在還在補皮、還在復健，你說有職安的工廠地圖，我看在屏東這些都有列入了，我今天早上看google有明揚公司，但是我們的職安地圖裡面居然沒有明揚，這是怎麼一回事？你把它刪掉了？"],["鄒署長子廉：沒有。明揚大火眾所周知，職災地圖的所有法制程序是經過職安報告書核定才會上網公告，這是屬於涉及人民權益的問題。在這個報告部分，因為經加區寫的職安報告書要配合火調單位的火調鑑識原因，所以這個部分確實還在程序中，我們會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，你看屏東縣的職安地圖，就是圖上一點、一點那些，你看有這麼多，這些你們有後續追蹤嗎？我只要講屏東就好了，其他的一定是亂七八糟的，高雄市也都一塌糊塗了。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，我們職災地圖是依照政府資訊公開法予以揭露的，全國有發生重大職災的部分我們會予以揭露，而揭露不是只有這個點而已，還有內容、訊息，包括死傷的原因、業主是誰、有發生事件的單位是誰，所以這個部分我們是……"],["蘇委員清泉：有在close follow up，有吧？"],["鄒署長子廉：會持續，今天委員提點有關明揚的部分，我們會再要求經加區趕快把報告讓我們核定，就會做揭露。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，剛才我有提到，因為全世界的高爾夫球的球桿臺灣做了80%，全世界高爾夫球的那個球，臺灣做了將近30%，臺灣就是有6家在製作，6家會互相交叉，所以明揚不做了，其他的廠商業務就越好了，他們也沒差啊！但是明揚出事了，我覺得很糟糕的是這個董事長是臺大化工系的，真的是心腸很壞耶！一個高爾夫球的球心是順式聚丁二烯，然後一層一層coating上去，那個球全部都是粉塵類的，然後裡面還有鋰，碰到水就會爆炸；我當過海軍陸戰隊，這裡面的原料跟TNT炸藥是一模一樣。這個廠商把儲存的地方、製造的地方跟辦公室都放在一起，有這麼「夭壽」的人！一年做30、40億顆，一年賺5、6億元，對於改善的工作，我都去現場看過，看得很痛心啊！一年如果花5、6千萬就都改善了，結果他不改善，這是很糟糕的事情。我現在要強調的是這等於是坐在炸藥上製作東西，其他的五家你們有去查嗎？這個是更嚴肅的問題喔！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們第一時間就有盤整有關原物料的部分，特別是用有機過氧化物的事業單位，我們在去年年底進行初查、複查的檢查，也有提供處分的案件來執行，針對這種列管的、高危險的事業單位，其實我們戒慎恐懼……"],["蘇委員清泉：明揚的董事長是臺大化工系，他明明知道那種東西是那麼可怕的、隨時會爆炸的，他都這樣幹了，其中富盛、啟坤、大田（大田也很糟糕）、鉅明、明安等，這些都互相交叉，這些廠會做得好，我不相信啦！所以我現在就要求部長跟署長，你們要強力地去稽查。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：對屏東縣這些化工廠都檢查一次、scanning一次，高雄好像有做了，屏東沒有做，我不知道我們縣政府有沒有這個能力，但我對職安署是還有信心的。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，這很重要的，所以統統都去檢查一次，屏東縣所有的化工廠全部巡視一遍，尤其是對高危險、高爆炸的這種東西，絕對、絕對要去做，人命關天啊！"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會做專案檢查。"],["蘇委員清泉：再說一次你是屏東人，多用心一點，拜託你！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，接下來我們請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.716593750000001,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.015968750000003,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.57159375,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.49971875,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.44034375,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.203468750000003,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.392843750000004,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.29534375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.74971875,"end":45.188468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.28534375,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.54659375,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.18721875,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.064093750000005,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.70096875,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.05096875,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.70034375,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.78409375000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.77909375,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.66909375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.83659375,"end":83.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.55784375,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.76846875000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.40971875000001,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.67471875000001,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.23971875000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.12534375,"end":101.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.77034375000001,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.20034375,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.40971875000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.27409375,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.99096875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.82534375,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.41034375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.11034375,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.79784375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.64284375,"end":165.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.26659375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.20284375,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.11409375000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.38346875000002,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.57159375,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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follow up"},{"start":331.716,"end":333.197,"text":"民洋因為全世界的高爾夫球的球感 台灣這非常怕"},{"start":346.94,"end":369.312,"text":"那全世界的高爾夫球這個球臺灣做了將近30%那臺灣就是六家在搬啦六家都有互相交叉所以民營他沒做其他就也不如何啊也不差啊民營這個出事了我是覺得很糟糕的就是他這個董事長是台大發公司的喔台大發公司真的是心爆夠賣欸"},{"start":375.728,"end":402.704,"text":"一個高級的球心是順勢丁二溪然後一些coating一層一層coating上去那個球那個是全部都是粉塵類的然後呢裡面還有鋰碰到所謂的爆炸那裡面的顏料跟TNT炸藥我當海軍陸戰隊我跟你講跟TNT炸彈是炸藥是一模一樣那這個廠商廠他把"},{"start":404.052,"end":432.46,"text":"儲存的場 儲存的地方 跟製造的地方 跟辦公室 都要一起做一個 有這麼要事的一年做三四十億 一年賺五六億 改善那些工作 我都去現場看 看我很痛心的去一年要開五六千萬 就改善了 都改善了 結果他們改善了這是很糟糕的事情 那我現在要強調的是這些東西等於坐在炸藥上在做東西"},{"start":433.447,"end":460.962,"text":"那其他的5家你們有去查嗎這個是更嚴肅的問題喔報告委員我們第一時間就有盤整有關這個原料我們為了特別是用有機過氧化合物的那個事業單位我們在去年年底做做初查複查做檢查如果有也有停工跟處分的案件來執行那針對這種列管的高危險的事業單位其實我們建設口徑銘陽齁董事長是台大化工系他明明知道那種東西他那麼可怕的齁"},{"start":462.524,"end":481.025,"text":"隨時會爆炸的他都這樣幹了那其他都富盛齊坤大田齁大田齁糟糕的齁巨民民安這都互相交叉這些都這些這些場會會做得好我不相信啦所以齁我現在是要求部長跟署長您來去阿強力的稽查"},{"start":482.006,"end":499.864,"text":"蘇清泉這裏的化工廠都被掃一次 高雄人家好像有做了 屏東沒有做 我們縣政府有沒有這個能力我不知道 但是我對你主要是 我還有信心的這很重要的 所以都要去查一遍 所有蘇清泉有的化工廠都要去查一遍"},{"start":504.389,"end":504.409,"text":"謝謝蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"149751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903d3cfdbc6e0aad49714b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a666a45ae5360df2805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:48:41 - 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因為看護工確實24小時就都在這個家庭裡面嘛我們有喘息服務我們現在他家庭的看護工他一年可以52次就有52天的休息時間那配合喘息服務這個經費都是勞動部支持的所以就是希望能夠改善這個"},{"start":297.17,"end":324.915,"text":"而勞工的這個移工的這個呃過勞的情形吼那再來就是說當然那個虐噢虐勞的問題吼雇主不當對待我們也強化吼檢舉吼我們1955專線也讓我們的移工透過多元的宣傳管道用不同的語言讓他們知道包括現在一再式的服務中心一進來我們就會告訴他你的勞動權益你怎麼求助你的申訴管道通通讓他們知道我想這樣會降低這個吼虐待的一個情勢啦"},{"start":326.155,"end":355.163,"text":"其實我們看到臺灣不論是產業移工或者是我們這個家庭看護移工其實他們到臺灣來一方面也是這個滿懷著憧憬希望到這個環境來就是最主要也要賺錢嘛那改善他們母國的可能這個整個經濟狀況那我們希望就是說他來到臺灣整個工作的環境也許需要這個我們這個雇主還有政府這邊要互相"},{"start":355.743,"end":357.965,"text":"我相信我們大部分的僱主都是善待移工的啦但是"},{"start":384.181,"end":401.81,"text":"也不好還是有些人吼對這個這個我們的移工沒有很吼這個合理的對待吼甚至虐虐待吼我覺得都不應該啦我覺得說大家可能在心態上觀念上要做一些改變吼就是說雇主你應該他來當然是要賺錢沒有問題但是他也"},{"start":402.57,"end":427.008,"text":"幫忙你不管是家庭的一些照顧等等我們應該是一個感恩的心把它當一個家人這樣對待我相信就不會有虐待的問題再來就是在勞動部的部分我們就是透過我們的家庭訪視我們那個訪有訪視員訪查員我們各地方政府我們補助他訪查員就是加強訪查再來就是移工很重要受到虐待他一定要申訴他一定要勇敢站出來"},{"start":427.788,"end":449.159,"text":"你聲述我們一定會查辦到底,一定絕不寬待,用這樣的方式去阻止這個虐待移工的情勢來一再的發生。其實我會覺得說這個產業移工的部分可能還沒有那麼嚴重。我覺得說這個看護工的部分是比較嚴重的一個問題。"},{"start":450.399,"end":477.387,"text":"對因為第一個就是說薪資可能跟場工比起來是有一些落差那另外場工的話他還有工作可能8小時之後是加班就是可以加班嘛有加班費那這個看護工的話他可能也沒有這樣的一個加班費可以請領所以有很多看護工其實他一段時間之後他可能有的會受到一些影響可能有的就逃跑那我們當然就是說這個"},{"start":479.768,"end":508.543,"text":"看護工的話其實未來也是我們很重要的一個看護的一個長道一個很重要的一個主力因為很多家庭他確實需要這樣子看護移工來幫忙所以我們也希望就是說從政策方面能夠讓這些這個看護移工到台灣來他一方面雖然說薪資可能跟長工還是有一些落差可是如果說他的整個工作環境有改善的話我覺得他還是會願意"},{"start":509.903,"end":522.287,"text":"來擔任我們這樣的一個非常重要的一個這個整個長照體系其中的一環所以我也希望就是說勞動部可能跟各部會還是要繼續努力尤其是監察院這樣寫我都覺得說這個"},{"start":525.268,"end":526.189,"text":"黃秀芳委員的諮詢,謝謝部長的答詢。"}]}},{"id":"149750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903620b9a90ebb90e5f3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6fe735c1817cf84155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:57:11 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10:07:08","影片長度":"00:09:57","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":597,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:07:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:57:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時57分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請劉秘書長及許部長。"],["主席：我們請劉秘書長、許部長上臺備詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，部長好。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實我要問的問題，剛剛羅委員有稍微點到，我再就教秘書長跟部長，現在鐵飯碗不香了，公務人員報考的人數這10年大減了一半，高達56%，而地方特考的到考率也只有六成而已，另外有很多類科錄取不足額，有很多類科無人錄取，大部分是三等與四等的工程類職缺。另外，我們看到全臺公務員的離職率提高，譬如說，有土木專業技能的人跑掉了，我舉一個報紙登載的例子，地方政府的主計處加班時數驚人，每個月要加班超過16個小時，幾乎天天加班，工時長，待遇差；然後地方衛生局的長照科去年有離職潮，某個局有24個公務員，其中5人離職了，請問秘書長、部長怎麼看待這些現象？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，跟委員報告，我補充一個資訊，因為大家都會習慣把民國99年到101年的公務人員報考人數跟現在做一個對照，不過我要強調，那個是近20年來的高峰期，是因為當時的經濟環境。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那個時候是高峰，可能是因為外面的經濟比較不如捧個鐵飯碗來得香。"],["劉秘書長建忻：的確是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那現在外面的經濟環境更好。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要舉一個例子，像公務專技人才，我待過地方政府，這些建管科的科長都是要從我們國家考試來的，但是他們都有什麼證照？有土木技師證照、有建築師證照，後來發現當國家的公務員太辛苦了，外面的待遇比較好，你覺得會不會是這個原因？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，的確在某些職域有非常嚴重的落差問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，部長也同意嘛！"],["許部長舒翔：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問我們公務人員的俸給是哪個部管的？"],["劉秘書長建忻：俸給是銓敘部，另外也跟人總的俸點計算有關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：考選部許部長請回。周部長，看起來我們年齡較長，過去公務人員的待遇不高，我的父母親一個是在國營事業服務，一個是小學教師，當年的薪水很少，你有沒有看過糧票？你知道早年公務員有領糧票嗎？有喔！請對著麥克風。其實我小時候我們家住的是宿舍，即國營事業配給的宿舍，吃的是母親教室的糧票，我叫小口，母親叫大口，糧票是什麼呢？就是我們的儲糧推陳出新的時候就拿糧票去換，因為不好吃，後來很多人反映就乾脆改發代金，這段歷史，部長也瞭解吧？"],["周部長志宏：對，過去確實是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後來的公務員也不配給宿舍了，因為人數多也蓋不出來，大家都自己外面買房子，所以改成了代金券跟現金補貼，變成了津貼加給，是不是這樣？"],["周部長志宏：對，後來再整併。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以公務人員的加給其實早期有實物加給，後來都改成用現金加給，請問如果用這個方式來看，如果有住的地方能滿足公務人員的居住需求，你認為類似這樣實物加給有沒有可能提高國考報考人數或降低基層公務人員離職率？"],["周部長志宏：對於公務人員待遇如果能夠改善，包括這些加給等等，但加給的部分主要是人總負責，因為我們只負責俸給的結構。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，所以接下來請問秘書長，長期人力不足的地區、部門或偏鄉的公務員，現在政府在推社宅，有沒有可能幫這些地方來提供，以社宅的方式提高給基層公務員或偏鄉公務員一個居住的滿足？我舉例來講，過去我們很多地方都有教師會館，墾丁的最夯，後來墾丁教師會館誰在住啊？都是觀光客在住，包括警光會館，屏東縣政府把這個教師會館改建之後，提供給包括牡丹、滿州還有恆春的國小教師，因為他們的流動比較高，在觀光地區那裡民宿很貴，所以給他們住，你覺得這個有沒有必要？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可能偏鄉的狀況應該會有一些居住上面的需求啦！如果地方政府沒有這個資源去滿足大家的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，包括我們看到在中和警消的社宅，它是全臺灣第一座給基層警消的社會住宅，因為警消他們要長時間備勤，勤一休二，他們幾乎都住在一起互相照應，你覺得如果國家或政府這樣子來提供，會不會有助於我們公務人員待遇的提升及條件的改善？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我想對公務員的生活協助越多，當然就是誘因越高，這個我們可以跟行政院來討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，是的，但是回顧過去歷史也有宿舍被占用的情況，過去我印象當中最常占用的就是學校的宿舍、警眷的宿舍，退休了還在那裡，配偶過世了，其實他的配偶還住在那裡，如果發展這個，要考慮如何解決被占用，可以跟人事總處來討論一下，可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以，事實上因為國產局現在都有在列管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們比較沒有針對類似像警消這樣特定的勤務人員來興建社宅，您覺得這會不會是一個我們考慮提升公務員待遇的方向──居住？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以跟這個內政部這邊來交換意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["劉秘書長建忻：社宅現在的數量還在持續擴充當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，為什麼今天考試院不是只有做修法的報告，還要做很多業務的報告，因為你們的業務很多跟行政院息息相關，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外就是新制的部分，現在年輕人不管當不當公務員都有兩個問題，一個是居住的問題，一個是薪資的問題。我們常常說你不能用香蕉請獅子來上工，我們現在公務人員的待遇大概是這樣子，有公務人員因為技能不同，有的是猴子、有的是獅子，我們的專業加給，獅子有比較多，猴子給一根香蕉，獅子的專業加給三根香蕉，你覺得這樣獅子會來上班嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我瞭解委員的意思，當然對於專業加給，尤其要看它的市場價值。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對的，目前我們公務人員待遇中專業加給的思維是自己網內互比，公務人員當中，你的專業證照比較高，你的加給比較多，一般的就比較低，但是你給獅子三根香蕉，給猴子一根香蕉，獅子不會來啊！因為外面的花豹是吃肉的，所以你們應該把你們的專業加給往業界、往外來對比才對，部長，同不同意？"],["周部長志宏：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很同意嘛！所以秘書長，是不是這樣思考一下？為什麼我要把部長請上來，因為專業加給的比較，你應該跟業界比，政府機關的公務員是在跟業界搶人，土木技師、建築師外界的薪水很高，所以你的專業加給不能拿來跟我們公務員內部來比，三根香蕉跟一根香蕉比，你們瞭解嗎？所以這個部分要來研修。我這邊要提到了修法的具體需求，公務人員俸給法由誰主管？"],["周部長志宏：銓敘部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是需求是在人總那裡，對不對？目前你們的俸給法當中，沒有實物加給的這個條件，大概都是以現金計算，但是早年我們也知道公務人員是有實物給付的，像住宅、像居住這個事情，它其實是個需求，有沒有可能未來修法的時候，在俸給法當中給這個空間，有沒有可能？"],["周部長志宏：這個我們會跟人總一起商量，因為要會同人總。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，另外俸給法底下有一個「公務人員加給給與辦法」當中，包括第四條第二項要加入同業薪資的待遇比較，因為你們這裡寫什麼？「所需資格條件及人力市場供需狀況」，寫得很籠統，第三項的「地域加給」要包括什麼？居住條件；第十四條，你要把各種加給的數額跟給與的方式，數額就是金額，但是給與的方式有多種，有實物、有代金，可不可以放進去？"],["周部長志宏：可以，委員的建議我們會納入參考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以最後我要拜託秘書長，因為的確考試院主管的法律要修改的不多，有些是卡到院跟院的協調，所以我希望你們跟人總研議「為錄取不足額的單位及偏鄉基層公務員提供社宅」之可行性，先做個評估，未來有什麼需要去改或修法的再提出來，可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外也請你們跟人總研議「專業加給與業界比較使專業人員的薪資與業界相仿」之可行性，也請部長和秘書長來承諾，可以來研議嗎？"],["周部長志宏：可以。"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果研議出來之後，我們會來跟行政院人總及考試院來研究怎麼樣透過修法的方式讓這些具體改善公務員待遇的條件，能夠滿足未來國家需要有優質的公務員、公僕來為人民服務，同意嗎？"],["周部長志宏：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，大概多久可以出來？這個是可長可久啦！但是我們希望……"],["周部長志宏：我們儘量跟人總儘快來開會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：給個日期好不好？我可以幫忙來講，人總比較會願意接受我們的意見啦！"],["周部長志宏：好，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月、2個月？"],["周部長志宏：3個月內來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，3個月，我們也希望加速腳步，謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來有請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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請對著麥克風其實我小時候我們家住的是宿舍國營事業配給的宿舍吃的是母親教師的糧票我叫小口母親叫大口那糧票是什麼呢就是我們的儲糧推陳出新的時候就拿糧票去換那因為不好吃後來很多人反應就該睡改發待經這段歷史部長也了解吧"},{"start":196.342,"end":224.69,"text":"對 過去確實是這樣那宿舍後來公務員不配給宿舍了因為人數多也蓋不出來大家都在外面買房子所以改成了貸金券跟現金補貼變成了津貼加擠 是不是這樣對 後來在診病所以公務人員的加擠其實早期有實務的加擠後來都改成用現金加擠那請問如果用這個方式來看如果有住的地方來滿足公務員的居住需求你認為類似這樣的實務加擠有沒有可能提高國考的報考人數或降低基層公務員的離職率"},{"start":225.538,"end":230.662,"text":"長期人力不足的地區部門或偏向公務員有沒有可能現在政府在推設宅有沒有可能幫這些地方來提供以設宅的方式提高給基層公務員或偏向公務員這樣一個居住的滿足我舉例來講"},{"start":254.199,"end":278.383,"text":"過去我們很多地方都有什麼教師會館 墾丁的最夯後來墾丁教育館誰在住啊 都是觀光客在住 景觀會館屏東縣政府把這個教師館改建之後提供給包括牡丹、滿洲還有恆春的國小教師 因為他們流動比較高在那裡觀光地區民宿很貴啊 所以給他們住 你覺得這個有沒有必要"},{"start":280.139,"end":308.726,"text":"可能偏鄉的狀況應該會有一些居住上面的需求啦如果地方政府沒有這個資源去滿足大家的是的包括我們看到在中和社宅他是全台灣第一座給警消的社會住宅讓基層的警消因為警消他們要長時間備勤啊勤一休二啊幾乎呢他們都住在一起互相遭遇你覺得如果國家或政府來提供這樣子有沒有有助於我們公務人員的待遇的提升他的條件的改善"},{"start":309.326,"end":322.855,"text":"我想對公務員生活協助越多當然就是誘因越高啦這個我們可以跟行政院來討論是的那但是過去呢也回顧歷史還有宿舍被佔用的情況啦過去我印象當中呢最常佔用的就是學校的宿舍"},{"start":323.814,"end":324.194,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":353.605,"end":367.802,"text":"我們可以跟內政部這邊來交換意見涉宅現在的數量還在持續擴充當中為什麼今天考試院不是只有做修法的報告還要做很多業務的報告因為你們的業務很多跟行政院息息相關 對不對"},{"start":369.263,"end":395.213,"text":"好那另外呢就是新的部分現在年輕人不管當不當公務員都兩個問題一個是居住的問題一個是新的問題我們常常說啊你不能用香蕉齁來請獅子來上工啊我們現在公務人員待遇呢大概是這樣子有公務人員因為繼承不同有的是猴子有的是獅子我們的專業家級呢獅子就比較多猴子給一根香蕉獅子的專業家級給三根香蕉你覺得這樣獅子會來上班嗎"},{"start":398.204,"end":422.905,"text":"是 我了解委員的意思 這個當然對於專業佳績尤其要看它的市場價值對的 目前我們公務人員待遇的專業佳績的思維是自己往內互比公務人員當中 你的專業證照比較高 你的佳績比較多你一般的就一般比較低但是你給獅子三根香蕉給猴子一根香蕉獅子不會來 因為外面的花豹是吃肉的所以你們應該把你們的專業佳績往"},{"start":424.746,"end":450.893,"text":"業界往外來對比才對,部長同不同意?很同意嘛,所以是不是這樣思考一下那為什麼呢,我要把部長請下來因為專業家級的比較呢,你應該跟業界比政府機關、公務員是在跟業界搶人土木技師、建築師外界的薪水很高所以你的專業家級不能拿來跟我們公務員內部來比三根香蕉跟一根香蕉比,你們了解嘛"},{"start":451.493,"end":451.853,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":472.202,"end":472.902,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":495.433,"end":518.784,"text":"第4條第二款要加入同業薪資的待遇比較因為你們這寫什麼所需資格條件局人力供需市場狀況寫得很籠統第三項地域加擠要包括什麼居住條件第14條也要把各種的加擠的數額跟給予的方式數額就是金額但是給予的方式有多種有實務有代金可不要放進去"},{"start":520.128,"end":541.315,"text":"可以委員的建議我們會讓好所以最後秘書長我要拜託因為的確考試院主管的法律要修改的不多有些是卡到院跟院的協調所以我希望你們跟任總研議為入許不足的單位及偏鄉精神公務員提供涉財的可行性先做個評估未來有什麼需要去改修法的再提出來可以嗎"},{"start":543.125,"end":543.685,"text":"專業家級與業界比較﹑使專業人員的薪資與業界相仿﹑可行性"},{"start":571.596,"end":594.679,"text":"好 謝謝 那大概多久可以有出來這個是可長可久啦 但是我們希望我們盡量跟人總盡快的來開 給個日期好不好我可以慢慢來轉啦 人總比較會願意接受我們的意見啦好 我們三個月 兩個月 三個月內來好 三個月 我們也希望加速腳步 謝謝秘書長 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對不對那我就想請教您我看到一篇那個風傳媒的風評"},{"start":352.332,"end":364.381,"text":"他評論說 這個我們的公務員為什麼現在就沒有那麼的熱門他就說 頑纏文官 綠肥貓養好養滿你有聽過這樣的評論嗎我考一個時尚語啦 你知道現在年輕人流行一句話叫做這個富貴要人幫辦卡辦這張 你知道辦哪一張卡嗎"},{"start":377.854,"end":394.342,"text":"我想我們跟國家考試來選拔人才都是公正公平的我知道你們選拔是公正公平我要跟你講是前途跟尊嚴辦卡辦這張富貴要人幫辦卡辦這張你知道辦哪一張卡嗎不知道告訴你就民進黨黨政"},{"start":396.116,"end":425.054,"text":"為什麼呢事實上在蔡英文總統第一任期她就非常著急把機要任用的政治幕僚大舉進入政府機關修改了中央行政機關組織基準法擴大三級機關的首長政務任用範圍然後也修改駐外外交領事人員任用條例讓非職業外交官的文官得以擔任駐外的比例放寬又修改駐外機構組織通則徵定公使跟副代表則以政務"},{"start":425.794,"end":428.779,"text":"我只想請教你一件事情你知道這對年輕人的影響是什麼嗎?"},{"start":441.423,"end":464.593,"text":"包括我們應考這個裡面沒有這個所謂黨政這個當然你沒有啊可是就是因為你沒有啊所以我發現我不要用今天考試的方式我可能今天只要加入民進黨我得到上面上司的陳鋒的賞賜我就可以跳過你今天辛辛苦苦寒窗十年然後努力苦讀然後"},{"start":465.473,"end":489.006,"text":"拼績效 慢慢拼升遷然後上到上面去因為上面的你的政務任用增加你的文官任用就減少啊不是嗎所以我就講第一個為什麼今天跟你講說薪資待遇當然是個問題可是事實上現在公務人員的尊嚴公務人員的前途都受到很大的影響我想要引用一句話就是說"},{"start":490.567,"end":503.167,"text":"我們的民進黨的前副總統呂秀蓮她就曾經說過一句話她徹底反對擴大官派跟政務官的比例為什麼因為她認為這個會破壞我們"},{"start":506.191,"end":521.45,"text":"臺灣長久以來的文官體制我想請問部長你認不認同我們臺灣不管是經濟奇蹟或是我們所謂內政的一些親民跟我們長年穩定的文官體制有很大的關係"},{"start":522.811,"end":549.064,"text":"有沒有很大的關係我們關係當然是國家社會發展很重要因為效忠國家政府嘛他不隨政黨進退嘛所以當他獲得保障之後他也知道說今天我能夠靠我努力服務能夠逐步升前於有一天能夠到所謂的那個我們叫公務人員的頂峰的時候那我覺得前途開拓的話你覺得大家會不會願意更有意願來報考公務員呢"},{"start":549.784,"end":567.696,"text":"所以我們都以公正公平公開的方式來滿足各用人機關的需求我跟部長講恐怕不只你們再努力你可以讓進來的部分公正公平公開但你沒有辦法讓後面的整個升遷的過程公正公平公開跟"},{"start":568.795,"end":589.054,"text":"我今天要跟你講你今天考試院你作為所謂的國家公務人員招考的主管機關你總要了解原因對策嘛 對不對所以我這邊我也直接跟各位來報告一下我要來好好幫助文官啦"},{"start":590.215,"end":615.784,"text":"幫助文官就是要恢復我們的文官體制恢復文官的尊嚴所以過去那些錯誤的擴大的政務任用的那種方式我覺得要重盤檢討啦所以換言之今天如果一旦文官他士氣低落文官覺得今天專業不受到重視過去太多例子了政務任用的一些這幾年的一些狀況我舉個例子嘛"},{"start":616.124,"end":616.224,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝羅委員"}]}},{"id":"149748","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149748","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cc159288ba1c302b33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a60c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:52:12 - 10:04:12","影片長度":"00:12:00","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":720,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:04:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:52:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時52分）謝謝主席，請王美花王部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早，我們繼續來談苦民所苦、民生第一。我們今天的重點還是在1,000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲，討論之前我們就來談一個比較輕鬆的，現在民眾最怕的就是水電雙漲對不對？怕兩個颱風共伴效應，這叫藤原效應嘛！所以你今天能不能很明確地跟全國民眾講，今年年底之前水價不會漲？"],["王部長美花：水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎，我們也會希望台水公司能夠有好的支撐，這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論台水的相關計畫。"],["張委員啓楷：上次是台水的李董說有可能要漲價，李董請你站一下沒關係，請站一下啦！不過只要今天部長對著我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了，儘量不要在今年年底漲水價好不好？這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應，這叫藤原效應嘛！對不對？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：整個物價會帶起來，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：目前還沒有規劃啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能對著民眾說，讓他們不要擔心，儘量在今年年底不要漲水價可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員建議。"],["張委員啓楷：可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會把委員的建議做參考。"],["張委員啓楷：你可以努力嗎？這方面可以努力，這是避免物價整個帶上來嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：物價上漲就跟變了心的女朋友就回不來了，你水跟電都漲，到時候你看，每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣，好不好？"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：我們接下來苦民所苦，我們今天繼續談，這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了，我們看一下這個天平，左邊非常明顯高獲利，可是也是高耗電的高科技，用了臺灣絕大部分的電，對不對？他們雖然是獲利非常地多，可是有些大的公司、半導體公司，甚至是我們人民用錢去補貼的，譬如說台積電，它營收那麼好，可是到目前為止，一年人民大概用100億左右的錢來補貼它的電價，而台電賣給台積電的電，台積電一年用了我們200億度的電，它拿錢跟台電買的時候，還差了五角，對不對？等於是每賣一度電給台積電，台電的錢也就是我們人民的納稅錢，它補了五角，對不對？至少這次把這個五角補回來，我們不是只有針對台積電，我講的是整個高獲利的高科技，特別是半導體，所以這次的調電是怎麼樣，有沒有可能調高一點點？"],["王部長美花：委員這個建議我們確實也都會在工作小組裡面去做參考。"],["張委員啓楷：現在媒體報的是，半導體一年用了50億度以上的電，所以要調25%到30%，是不是？"],["王部長美花：他們正在討論，都還沒有定案。"],["張委員啓楷：有這個方向，是吧？至少會調多少？"],["王部長美花：細節因為我沒有參與，所以我不瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：我為什麼一開始講這個，當然我們非常敬佩高科技對我們臺灣經濟發展的貢獻，你看張忠謀創辦人他是非常有企業責任、社會責任的，他都提到願意被徵富人稅，對不對？我相信我們在肯定高科技半導體對我們臺灣經濟貢獻的時候，這次調電的時候，他們可能是像你們規劃的，應該多負擔一點，在兩成五到三成之間，而他們在多負擔一點的同時，我們看看右邊可憐的一般老百姓及1,000度以下的小康之家、小商店，他們現在碰到的是高通膨、實質薪資負成長。","這個是主計總處的統計，2020年2.95，這算很高了；2023年2.49；今年1月，CPI稍微降下一點點，最讓人擔心的2月份則是衝破了3，CPI變成3.08，國發會也直接評估了，電價如果漲10%的話，CPI直接或間接的影響有0.2到0.3%，所以真的要非常非常謹慎面對這對物價的衝擊，人民已經很苦了，這時候電價一漲，他們的生活更苦。","今天還有更新的新聞，我給部長看一下，今天這是各報還有各個電視台的頭條新聞，通膨怪獸又突襲美國。今天最新的統計，美國2月的CPI年增了3.2%，核心的CPI年增了3.8%，這都顯示不是只有美國，整個臺灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊，所以拜託部長，再拜託一次，1,000度以下的民生用電，在開會的時候，儘量爭取不要漲，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員的建議，我們各方的意見都會蒐集。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK。儘量往這個方向走，好不好？","另外，我在爭取、幫全民講話的時候，至少讓物價不要上漲的同時還有一個方法，除了不漲電價之外，就是儘量去補助小商家跟小商店，小商家、小商店如果不苦，沒有調高它的價格，人民就不會受苦嘛！所以最近行政院穩定物價小組馬上要開會了，是不是？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你最近要去開會，對不對？你能不能建議，第一個，小商家、小商店的桶裝瓦斯、天然氣在今年年底之前，只能降不要漲，這是你管的，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是，這個部分跟委員報告，我們已經很久沒有漲，我們現在賣給它是八塊多，可是委員知道成本多少嗎？最高是16塊，現在雖然降一點，大概15塊、14塊，可是事實上我們桶裝瓦斯是用半價在賣給商家。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這要稱讚一下部長，這是好的措施。"],["王部長美花：這部分中油已經……"],["張委員啓楷：而且我幫你查過了，天然氣價格是在往下掉的。"],["王部長美花：雖然掉了，但還是有十幾塊。"],["張委員啓楷：對！它是往下掉的，所以我的要求是合理的，我是說至少在今年年底前你只能降不要再漲，好不好？"],["王部長美花：我們對小商家都會優予考慮。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說能否很具體地做出這樣的承諾？老實說，它已經在漲了，對不對？如果降的話，你就跟著降，老實講，我們都會去小商店、小店家吃麵、吃飯，對他們影響很大的就是他們的瓦斯。"],["王部長美花：是，這些桶裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你能不能做一個很清楚的保證，就是在今年年底之前，只會降不會漲？"],["王部長美花：我們一定會優予考慮，委員可以看到我們過去這兩、三年都沒有漲，這個都已經乖離成本很多了。"],["張委員啓楷：好。接下來是黃小玉的調幅。"],["王部長美花：這個是涉及到財政部的工作。"],["張委員啓楷：行政院要開會了，你可以幫忙反映嗎？"],["王部長美花：到時各部會都會在。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好。還有一個很重要的，我們看下一張，這應該對台電、經濟部是一個好的消息，公平會跟9家民營電廠打官司的這個事情，最新的進度是公平會贏了！公平會贏了！我禮拜一質詢公平會主委的時候，他們說現在的重點就是到底要罰它多少錢，公平會本來罰它63.2億，現在可能改罰60.7億。這有二個重點，第一個是罰多少錢；第二個，更重要的，它認定9家民營電廠是聯合行為，確定已經是事實了，9家民營電廠已經是敗訴了，最高行政法院判決書裡還有一句話非常重要，台電可以跟任何一家，就是向其買電的9家民營電廠或者是能源公司，你可以跟它議價，這就是本席一直在強調的，台電在虧損的同時，人民要付錢、要漲電費之前，所有你跟它買電的9家民營電廠，還有太陽能的部分，去篩檢一下它合約合不合理，有沒有降價空間，好不好？"],["王部長美花：這個部分我簡單跟委員報告，這是兩件事，它等於是97年到102年之間，都沒有來跟台電談，公平會是針對這一段時間遲延來談的部分，有沒有所謂的聯合壟斷，而公平會判定是有，法院也支持了，目前他們這個案子在上訴當中，他們會聲請再審，而這個是針對聯合壟斷。至於電價的部分，102年台電就已跟他們議價完成了，目前是針對102年之前，97年到102年之間遲延的部分，台電有去打官司，有去要求這個部分，一、二審都輸掉了，目前是法院有發回、再審理當中。總之，我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們要更努力，爭取把這個官司打贏。"],["王部長美花：102年之後已經有調降了。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在要提醒你，為什麼當初9間民營電廠會被罰，他們跟台電說，我的天然氣往上走了，所以你要幫我調；而台電這邊提的是什麼？你利息從8%降到2%，結果台電是老實人啊！台電被9家民營電廠欺負了！它幫他們調了天然氣的成本，就跟你這次一樣，天然氣的部分就答應他們調了，可是利息沒有往下降，所以最高行政法院講了一句話，台電有權利跟它繼續議約，不是只有對9家民營電廠，本席現在力爭的是什麼？包括太陽能、綠能都出現了，你看雲豹的19間，還有黃偉哲那個案子……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，雲豹今年開始，它97%全部都直接賣給民間。"],["張委員啓楷：可是你們跟它買是用合約，為什麼會產生那麼多弊案……"],["王部長美花：這個不是，之所以這麼多家，其實國際上都一樣，不同的太陽光電案場，它都是一個VPI的概念，就是會有一個子公司，但這不是為了逃避，全世界我們去看的都是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，等一下我會把相關文書送給你，最高行政法院的判決有句話非常重要，台電可以跟任何向其買電的公司，不管是不是那9家民營電廠，它跟任何買電的能源公司，是可以重新議價、是可以去討論的。"],["王部長美花：委員關心的這個事情，台電也有在討論這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你在漲電價之前，人們要掏錢之前，既然台電是虧損的，你內部要做改革，要去檢視每份合約，看看哪個地方能夠把錢省下來，好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是的，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃代）：謝謝委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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委員好我們繼續要來談苦民所苦民生第一我們現在重點還是在1000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲那討論之前我們就要談一個比較輕鬆的了現在民眾通常就是水電雙漲對不對今天兩個紅胎共伴效應這叫藤原效應嘛所以你今天能不能很明確的跟全國民眾講今年年底之前水價不會漲"},{"start":60.213,"end":87.262,"text":"水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎那我們也會希望這個台水公司能夠有好的一個支撐那這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論相關的這個台水的相關計畫應該是台水李董說有可能要去嘛李董你先站一下沒關係請站一下不過只要今天部長對我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了"},{"start":88.696,"end":99.548,"text":"盡量不要在今年年底 漲水價好不好 這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應 謝謝委員提醒目前還沒有規劃啦 是 你能不能對著民眾說讓他們不要擔心盡量在今年年底 盡量在今年年底不要去水價可以嗎"},{"start":109.76,"end":131.417,"text":"謝謝委員建議我們會把委員的建議做參考你可以努力嗎?這方面可以努力這是避免物價整個帶上來嘛物價上漲就跟那個變了心的女朋友就回不來喔你水跟電都漲這個到時候你看每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣好不好好 謝謝委員好啦那我們接下來來談上夜"},{"start":134.738,"end":158.778,"text":"苦民守苦,我們今天繼續談這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了我們看一下這個天平左邊非常明顯高獲利可是也是高耗電的高科技用了台灣絕大部分的電對不對他們雖然是獲利非常的多可是呢有些"},{"start":160.25,"end":161.871,"text":"臺電每賣給臺積電的電臺積電一年用了我們200億的200億度電的電錢跟臺電買的時候"},{"start":188.86,"end":214.149,"text":"還差了五角,對不對?是不是差五角?等於是每賣一度電給台積電我們台電,也就是我們人民大稅錢,補五角嘛,對不對?那至少是這一次把這個五角把它補回來我不是只有針對台積電,我講的是整個高獲利的高科技,特別是半導體這次的調補是怎麼樣?有沒有可能高一點點?是,這個委員這個建議我們也確實都會在工作小組裡面去參考"},{"start":215.169,"end":223.132,"text":"現在媒體報的是說這次的這個半導體超過51億一年用50億以上的51億一度電的是要調25%到30是不是?"},{"start":227.754,"end":242.643,"text":"他們正在討論都還沒有定案有這個方向是嗎?細節因為我沒有參與所以我不瞭解好那這個天秤的同時我為什麼一開始講這一邊當然我們非常敬佩高科技對我們台灣經濟的發展的這個貢獻你看張忠謀創辦人"},{"start":247.042,"end":274.601,"text":"他是非常有企業責任、社會責任他都提到說他願意徵這個負人稅嘛 對不對我相信在我們的墾丁高科技半導體對我們台灣經濟貢獻的時候這是調電的時候他們可能是向你們規劃的應該多負擔一點那在多負擔一點的同時是不是在兩層五到三層的同時我們看看右邊可憐的是一般的老百姓一千度以下的是小康之家是小商店"},{"start":276.479,"end":295.186,"text":"高通膨實質的薪資負成長通膨這個是主計數的統計2020年2.95這算很高了2023年2.49今年一月CPI稍微降下一點點最讓人家擔心的二月份衝破3CPI衝破3 3.08"},{"start":301.405,"end":327.585,"text":"國發會直接評估了說電價如果漲10%的話CPI直接會有建制影響性0.2到0.3%所以真的要非常非常的謹慎對物價的衝擊不要造成人民已經很苦了這時候電價一漲他們的生活更苦那今天還有更新的新聞我給部長看一下來今天是各報還有各個電視台頭條的新聞通膨怪獸又突襲美國"},{"start":328.772,"end":358.104,"text":"今天統心的統計美國的二月的CPI連增多少?3.2%核心的CPI連增了3.8%這個都顯示不是只有美國整個臺灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊所以拜託補定拜託補定 再拜託一次是千、一千度以下的民生用電在開會的時候盡量爭取不要漲好不好謝謝委員的建議我們各方的意見都會收集是好"},{"start":359.398,"end":385.268,"text":"OK,盡量往這方向走好不好那另外我在爭取幫全民講話的時候我們再看下一張至少讓物價不要上漲的同時有一個方法除了補償電價之外就是盡量去補助小商家跟小商店對不對是小商家小商店他如果不苦他沒有沒有調高他價格人民就不會受苦嘛所以最近馬上要開行政院的物價"},{"start":386.684,"end":398.501,"text":"平穩小組是不是?是。最近要開嘛對不對?對對。你能不能建議第一個小商家的小商店的統裝瓦斯跟天然氣在今年年底之前只能降不要漲?"},{"start":402.006,"end":418.754,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告我們已經很久沒有站我們現在賣給他是8塊多可是成本委員知道多少嗎?最高是16塊那現在雖然降一點喔大概15塊、14塊可是事實上我們基本上是半價桶裝瓦斯在賣給用桶賣給賣給商家這個部分已經中油已經吸收是天然氣的價格是在往下掉的"},{"start":430.339,"end":451.329,"text":"但是掉還是有十幾塊所以我的要求是合理的我說至少在今年年底你只能降不要再漲好不好我們對小商家都會優於考慮不是我說很具體的能不能做這樣的承諾因為老實講他已經在降了對不對那所以如果降的話你就跟著降"},{"start":452.578,"end":476.677,"text":"因為老講對小商店跟小店家吃麵吃飯他們影響很大就是他們的瓦斯嗎?這些統裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧有特別照顧齁?對所以能不能做一個很清楚的保證就是在今年年底之前只會降不會漲我們一定會優於考慮委員看到我們過去這兩三年都沒有漲這個已經都乖離成本很多了"},{"start":477.077,"end":479.158,"text":"公平會跟九家民營電廠打官司這個事情他最新的進度是公平會贏了"},{"start":506.206,"end":527.078,"text":"公平會贏了然後公平會的主委我禮拜一的時候質詢的時候他們說現在重點就是下一張現在到底要到底要罰他多少錢公平會本來罰他的是63.2億現在要改罰可能60.7億因為有兩個重點喔第一是發多少錢第二個更重要的他認定說九家民營電廠的聯合行為"},{"start":529.211,"end":555.97,"text":"確定已經是事實了,就是說九家民營電廠已經是已經是敗訴了,已經敗訴了。最高行政法院裡面還有一句話非常重要,判決書裡面說的,台電可以去跟任何一家你跟他買電的九家民營電廠或者是能源公司,你可以去跟他議價。這就本席一直在強調的,你要,台電在虧損的同時,人民要付錢要漲電費之前,所有的你跟他買電的九家民營電廠,太陽能,"},{"start":556.983,"end":581.55,"text":"去篩檢一下他合約合不合理有沒有降降空間好不好這個部分我簡單跟委員報告他是兩件事他等於是97年到102年這個之間都沒有來跟台電來談那公平會是針對這一段時間實驗來談有沒有聯合壟斷的問題那公平會判定是有那法院也支持了那目前他們這個案子在上訴當中那這個是他們在再審"},{"start":584.011,"end":585.793,"text":"對102年台電就跟他們已經議價完成了那目前是針對102年之前到97年到102年之間的這個齒眼的部分那台電有去打官司要求這個部分那一二省都輸掉了"},{"start":604.71,"end":616.103,"text":"那目前是法院有發回在審理當中那這個我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情所以法定人員要更努力去爭取把這個官司打贏一百零二月之後已經有調降了我現在在提醒你就是說當初為什麼酒店名店長會被罰"},{"start":621.63,"end":651.033,"text":"他們跟台電講說我的那個天然氣往上走啦所以你要幫我調嘛對不對那台電這邊提的是什麼你利息從8%降到2%阿結果台電勾一郎阿台電被九佳民營電廠欺負啦他幫他調了天然氣的這個成本就跟你這次一樣喔天然氣他答應他啦可是往下的利息沒有降沒有降所以最高行政法院講的一句話台電有權利去跟他繼續議約不是只有對九佳民營電廠啓楷現在本席現在在力爭的是什麼"},{"start":651.753,"end":658.761,"text":"包括太陽能力都出現了, 你看雲豹19公斤, 還有黃偉哲那個案子我跟委員報告, 雲豹到今年開始, 他97%全部都直接賣給民間他都是直接賣給民間"},{"start":673.317,"end":677.622,"text":"沒有沒有 這個不是 那麼多家 其實國際上都一樣 不同的太陽光電案場 它都是一個BPI的概念 它就是會有一個子公司 但是它不是為了逃避 它全世界我們去看的都是一樣部長 等一下我會把文書送給你 最高行政法院裡面有一句話非常重要"},{"start":694.279,"end":694.479,"text":"謝謝委員資訊 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903ccce610b9c97f85896e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a6e5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:50:55 - 10:01:10","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":615,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:01:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:50:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時50分）謝謝主席，有請我們徐僑務委員長。"],["主席：請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：黃委員，恭喜！"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。僑務委員工作的重點有「僑務政策與新南向」、「僑生培育」、「移民與文化」，「臺灣移民與再現」、「臺商與跨國移民」、「華語教材與教法」、「僑教歷史及其發展」、「僑生教育及文化認同」等8項重大的議題。我就以目前幾項重大事件做簡易的發言，待會我可能要請僑民處處長、僑商處處長跟僑生處的處長一起來。","目前海地幫派首腦為迫使總理亨利下臺，2月29日在首都太子港號召武裝團體行動並與員警爆發了槍戰，截至目前為止已造成數名的警員傷亡，數千名的囚犯越獄。請問一下，在海地的大使館有沒有派駐僑務秘書？有誰協助及掌握當地僑民的安全？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，海地的大使館我們並沒有派駐秘書，根據我們昨天晚上掌握的訊息，在海地目前我們只有駐館員的眷屬9人、技術團11人，真正的僑臺商只有4人，所以總體加起來只有24人在海地，目前他們所居住的地方距離暴動區有一段距離，尚稱安全。"],["黃委員仁：實質的狀況有沒有掌握到？"],["徐委員長佳青：有。因為他們都在大使館附近的區域裡面。"],["黃委員仁：那如何協助他們在當地，或者是離開海地的作業？"],["徐委員長佳青：目前的駐館員的眷屬9人跟技術團的眷屬11人，這些都算是我們廣義所謂的僑民，以及我們真正的臺商4人，都有造冊，而且都有在密切的聯繫，隨時掌握他們的需求跟必要的協助。"],["黃委員仁：這個可能涉及未來我們海外僑民的問題，一旦發生任何的暴動或槍戰，如何保護到我們的僑民，這是首要也是你們僑委會最重要的要務之一，要保護我們的僑民，因為僑民就是我們延伸的國力。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["黃委員仁：所以這一點我必須要引這個議題作為未來的提示……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，有關於僑民的部分，僑委會做最多的資訊服務跟相關的關心絕對是必要的工作……"],["黃委員仁：當然這個一定要做的。"],["徐委員長佳青：但是主要有關協調業務，還是以外交部、外館為第一線，所以我們也是統一指揮聽外交部的。"],["黃委員仁：當然，你們要同步進行，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["黃委員仁：好，剛剛聽羅美玲委員特別提出了評點制度，我想問一下，尤其現在我們很多僑外畢業生留在臺灣的阻礙重重，政府的評點制度、居留限制，乃至於公司在聘用的時候有很多的疑慮，也使他們無法掌握自己在臺灣的命運。請問僑委會如何解決評點制度這個問題？"],["徐委員長佳青：首先跟委員報告，這兩年來我們有7個部會幾乎是每兩個月都要定期開會，協商僑外生在臺灣就讀及工作的相關情形。去年勞動部已經公布我們評點制的配額，從6,000又提升到7,000人了，另外我們也將相關計分點上面它更放寬……"],["黃委員仁：我想你們要再深入的探討評點制度的問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員仁：現在很多僑生對評點制的方向……，如果你限制他70%以上才可以留在臺灣，對於很多的企業，當然還有僑生本身居留的問題，就會限制到。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["黃委員仁：你去年4月29日表示，目前行政院也正在研擬新法，有可能取消評點制，讓更多優秀僑生留在臺灣就業，去年你就已經提出這個方案，這個方案應該就以評點制……雖然這是勞動部制定出來的方案，但是也應該要考量僑生居留的權益，讓他們能夠放寬，所以這個部分你也特別提出來這個方案啦！"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員仁：目前你們所制定出來的一些新法，有沒有進一步的做法？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟黃委員報告，確實您所提示的方向，我們都是照這樣子在執行，在上一次7個部會的會議當中，我確實有建議是不是往取消評點制的方向準備，但要取消之前我們還有幾個配套措施一定要做，包括國發會等相關部會要提出修法的版本，要先經過大院核定審查，通過之後能夠實施，這相關的配套制度才有可能同時落日。所以我們很期待今年速度能夠進行的快一點，這些立法或修法的工作都可以完成，這樣我們評點制就有走到快速日落的機會，目前這還有待各部會的努力跟協調。"],["黃委員仁：好，因為時間的因素，我們現在看一下，剛剛你所提到的，全球共有16處的僑務中心，其中11處位於美國、一處位於加拿大、一處位於巴西、一處位於菲律賓，另外一處是在澳洲。我看了一下，我們在歐洲跟非洲也有很多的僑民，歐洲有五萬多人，非洲有九千多人，而巴西三萬多人就有一個僑務中心，為何我們歐洲跟非洲沒有？"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員的提問，關於非洲，其實鼎盛時期從1980年代到2000年，我們在……"],["黃委員仁：我在這邊建議，歐洲既然有五萬多人的話，如果我們承購的所在地太貴，是不是用租賃的方法？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們都想過要用租的，但是歐洲現在非常、非常昂貴，我們的預算規模很低，而且歐洲的僑民很分散，在二十幾個國家才5萬人左右，最大的一個國家就是法國，所以我們在巴黎曾經有想預購，但是這件事情在10年前由於預算額度不夠就胎死腹中了，現在連大使館都是用租的，租金也非常、非常的昂貴，我們都有經過一再的評估，能夠早點幫僑胞多增加一個可以活動的場地是非常好的，我們也樂觀其成，如果未來有可能在預算編列上納入這些，我們也會積極思考。"],["黃委員仁：你們再看一下，評估報告是不是給我一份？既然針對僑民來講，國內非常重視，因為他們是我們國力的延伸……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員仁：歐洲既然有五萬多人，雖然散居在……"],["徐委員長佳青：二十幾個國家。"],["黃委員仁：對，範圍比較大，但是不是有一個聯絡處……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員仁：我們今天承購不起……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，現在歐洲我們大概有派駐5個據點，分別都跟我們各地的代表處……"],["黃委員仁：沒關係，你把這個報告給我。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["黃委員仁：那非洲呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：因為目前非洲僑民人數急遽下滑，所以全非洲55個國家不到1萬的僑民，將近六千多個僑民是集中在南非，事實上南非現在已經不允許我們做任何新的購置案跟租賃案，我們只有配置兩位僑務祕書，分別在Johannesburg和Cape Town，配合我們的代表處跟駐處。"],["黃委員仁：好，這部分有簡易的報告順便也給我一下，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：針對歐洲的部分，是不是有必要設立？以上。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝，謝謝黃委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.70596875,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.95471875,"end":5.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.31909375,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.99784375,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.26159375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.06471875000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.94471875,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.96596875,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.62409375000001,"end":146.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.67471875,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.70846875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.79284375,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":159.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.65159375000002,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.23471875,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.98909375000002,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.88721875000002,"end":213.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.44784375,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.60534375,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.40971875000002,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.08471875,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":234.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.19284375,"end":233.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.12096875,"end":236.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.13346875000002,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.09534375,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.05346875000004,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.58909375,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.97284375000004,"end":267.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.66846875000005,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.33909375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":273.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.50284375,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.96971875,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.91284375000004,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.21596875,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.29096875000005,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.96971875,"end":358.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.73034375000003,"end":358.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.52346875,"end":365.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.74596875000003,"end":383.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.93721875,"end":409.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.90784375000004,"end":437.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.26221875000005,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.64346875,"end":455.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.52096875,"end":456.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.42784375,"end":459.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.63846875,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.44846875,"end":463.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.48596875000004,"end":468.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.18971875000005,"end":476.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.25596875,"end":479.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.19659375000003,"end":486.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.21659375,"end":497.4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因為時間因素我們現在看一下就是現行剛剛你所提到的這些全球共有6處的僑務中心其中11處位於美國1處位於加拿大1處位於巴西1處位於菲律賓另外1處是在澳洲好那我看了一下"},{"start":457.489,"end":476.546,"text":"歐洲跟非洲我們也有很多的僑民歐洲有5萬多人非洲有9000多人但是巴西3萬多人就有一個僑務中心為何我們歐洲跟非洲沒有"},{"start":477.965,"end":497.226,"text":"謝謝委員的提問 非洲呢因為其實鼎盛時期從1980年代到2000年我們在那我這邊建議歐洲既然有5萬多人的話是不是如果我們承購的那個所在地太貴是不是用租賃的方法"},{"start":497.606,"end":513.161,"text":"我們都想過要用租的但是歐洲現在非常非常昂貴我們的預算規模很低而且歐洲的僑民是很分散在20幾個國家才5萬人左右的這個所以最大的一個國家就是法國所以我們曾經在巴黎有曾經想預購但是這件事情在10年前由於預算額度不夠就開始負重了"},{"start":518.626,"end":519.787,"text":"你看一看一下你評估報告是不是給我一份好不好"},{"start":544.119,"end":558.774,"text":"既然我們對針對僑民來講的話國內是一個非常要重視因為他是我們國力的原生那歐洲裡面既然有5萬多但雖然居善在這個20幾個國家對比較範圍比較大"},{"start":561.457,"end":561.858,"text":"非洲呢?"},{"start":578.121,"end":583.005,"text":"非洲目前因為僑民人數急劇下滑所以全非洲55個國家不到1萬的僑民那將近6千多的僑民是集中在南非那南非事實上現在已經不允許我們做任何新的這個購置案跟這個租賃案因為我們只有配置兩位僑務秘書分別在Yohannesburg跟 Cape Town那配合我們的代表處跟住處"},{"start":603.342,"end":613.74,"text":"好那這個部分有簡易的報告順便給我一下好不好如果針對歐洲的這個部分勢必是不是有必要來設立以上謝謝謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"149746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035372485c27fd2f3ab77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a694885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:43:45 - 09:57:59","影片長度":"00:14:14","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":854,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:57:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:43:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時43分）謝謝主席，我換個順序好了，今天審計長來這裡都沒有表現，審計長先來，陳審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。主計跟審計其實都相對冷門，但是好像你又比主計更冷門一點，事實上你比主計更重要。來，我們先看你的報告，111年度，我就針對政府推動重要社會發展計畫執行情形，這裡面身心障礙兒少的受虐比例持續攀升，大概每一年身心障礙的兒少，就是本身是handicap、身心障礙，每年大概1,000個受虐，身心障礙的兒少有多少呢？大概5.2萬人左右。身心障礙的兒少5.2萬，但是受虐的有1,000人，每年一直成長，這是你的報告，圖表我今天就不列了，我都是根據你的報告來的。那我給你一個數字，一般臺灣全國的兒童受虐有多少人？一年？你知道嗎？大概1萬人左右，超過1萬人，所以大概每10萬人40個左右，就是一般受虐的，不是只有身心障礙的受虐，這個數字你已經提出了報告。","在113年2月17號你講父或母未滿20歲的6歲以下兒童，也就是6歲以下兒童的爸爸媽媽是沒有滿20歲的，弱勢兒童主動關懷方案是衛福部提出來的，未能落實辦理，你等於修理衛福部，衛福部提6歲以下弱勢兒童的照顧沒有落實辦理，函請衛福部研謀改善。","這二個都是你的審計報告，我今天等於讓你表演一下、表現一下，你對衛福部有什麼進一步的要求，最近衛福部被叮了滿頭包，蘇丹紅食的安全，然後又來一個受虐兒的事情，都是轟動整個社會兩大事件，衛福部就一路擺爛，等於是一個看守政府現在變成無政府狀態的一個標竿，就是衛福部。來，你講一下。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：衛福部的業務相當複雜……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都關係到人民……"],["賴委員士葆：你的業務也很複雜。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：衛福部的業務也很複雜。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我的業務是在後面，衛福部的業務在前面，所以它要受到的衝擊會比較大。"],["賴委員士葆：所以呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們都會提醒它，這個地方要注意，尤其很弱勢的地方……"],["賴委員士葆：它都沒有注意，已經2月17日到現在快一個月了都沒有注意，也沒有給你……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會，它會答復我說，我提醒它……"],["賴委員士葆：它怎麼講？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個很弱勢的，你們要多注意，就是對民眾以後會產生一些社會問題，所以我們都會提醒。"],["賴委員士葆：它有沒有報告給你？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它會，它會答復我。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，這個結果發生了，你看2月17日僅僅不到一個月的時間發生這個虐童案，就代表它執行的不澈底啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們2月27日的意見剛去，它可能還在整個瞭解之中。"],["賴委員士葆：還有針對蘇丹紅的事情，你有沒有列案去管？有沒有？蘇丹紅的事情。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們113年度對食安，它因為關係到民眾、民生很大，會全面調查、專案調查。"],["賴委員士葆：蘇丹紅部分有沒有立案專案調查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不只蘇丹紅，我們整個食品安全……"],["賴委員士葆：還有什麼？還要列專案？來，唸一下。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：整個食品安全……"],["賴委員士葆：整個聽無啦！整個聽無啦！你要講還有什麼？蘇丹紅之外還有什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們沒有就品項，我們就它整個制度、整個像源頭管理、邊境查驗等這些……"],["賴委員士葆：那你們現在查到蘇丹紅最大的問題在哪裡？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們的蘇丹紅因為它是個案事件，都會和整體……"],["賴委員士葆：不是個案喔！是全面，每一個人都吃到，在座每個人都有吃到、都吃過。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那個源頭管理及後市場稽查都很重要，所以現在衛福部已經在做源頭的稽查、做後市場的稽查，把它切出來……"],["賴委員士葆：你審計報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大概我6、7月會整個查完，查完會寫報告，大概會寫在我的112年審核報告裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：7月份針對蘇丹紅一定出來，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：蘇丹紅我們會順便瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：不是順便瞭解，要專案瞭解啦！現在全民大家說到這個都嚇死了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，委員這樣的要求，我們照委員的意思。"],["賴委員士葆：7月？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會有一個報告出來。"],["賴委員士葆：6月底以前啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["賴委員士葆：6月底以前一個報告出來喔？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["賴委員士葆：其實老實講，6月底我都不滿意了，這個陳建仁說……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們做的……"],["賴委員士葆：……一個月就可以結束了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是做系統性的查核，會比較複雜一點。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。我們再請朱主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，你接受媒體專訪時說……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有接受專訪。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體訪問你，你說確定不做了。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，是在上次國民所得評審會的時候，我說可能是最後一次，對啦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以現在縮回來了喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有、沒有！我沒有講可能啦！"],["賴委員士葆：賴政府找你做，你還要繼續做喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說可能，我的派令只到5月19號，跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：確定沒有，你現在又縮回去了！你原來說的，因為我看到媒體說你不做了，你也跟我說你不做了，結果在公開場合說不一定喔，不一定不做……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有！沒有任何人跟我提未來做不做，我在這邊講說我不做、我不做，那個好像太矯情了，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：萬一真的找你做呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：蛤？"],["賴委員士葆：萬一真的找你做呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得我做8年了，已經該休息了，中華民國有很多人適合做，像我們下面就一堆人了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你可以講enough is enough，夠了，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：蛤？"],["賴委員士葆：enough is enough？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，enough is enough。"],["賴委員士葆：這個同意喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，當然啦，我希望……"],["賴委員士葆：當然有另外一個解讀啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：你也知道我……"],["賴委員士葆：另外一個解讀是說你以退為進，說主計長我不要做了，但如果是去做其他的官可能就去做了，例如財政部長就去做了，這樣就對了。"],["朱主計長澤民：拜託，我要進到哪邊去？"],["賴委員士葆：財政部長啊！可以啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：財政部，有更有能力的人……"],["賴委員士葆：問這個東西老實講是……好，不提這個事情了。","另外一件事情，這個CPI、GDP大家都問了，我就只有點出一個，你每一次的預估都比其他的，比如你預估的比央行、比IMF都樂觀，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，在同一個時間點每一個都一樣，因為我們預估的比較早，他們就在後面修正，所以他看起來好像比我們……"],["賴委員士葆：所以他們比較準，你比較不準？"],["朱主計長澤民：蛤？"],["賴委員士葆：他們比較準，你比較不準！"],["朱主計長澤民：我比他早1個月預估！"],["賴委員士葆：所以比較不準？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個……"],["賴委員士葆：所以比較不準？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為那個是掌握……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答我啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：掌握的事實比較多，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你比較不準就對啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有、沒有，他如果跟我同一個時候預估的話，我們就沒有什麼不準……"],["賴委員士葆：我請教你啦，前瞻現在還剩多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：前瞻的話，如果第4期結束，就是剩下704億元。"],["賴委員士葆：今年底就結束了嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有！要到今年8月還是7月……"],["賴委員士葆：今年7月、8月結束？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以700億就繳庫了？"],["朱主計長澤民：明年！明年7月、8月，對不起。"],["賴委員士葆：明年？你要講清楚喔！明年7月、8月？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員士葆：到底是哪一方面執行落後，怎麼會還剩700億啊？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，前瞻沒有落後，因為本來就是，最後就是大概8個月，前瞻不是從蔡政府第1天任期就開始做，是到7、8月才做的。"],["賴委員士葆：那你有沒有鼓勵其他的人趕快來申請？現在還可以申請嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個700億還沒有定案，將來是……"],["賴委員士葆：就是有700億還沒有申請的嘛，這樣講就對了啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦，那個是要各部會……"],["賴委員士葆：哪個項目比較多？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有哪個項目，我們是看需求的情況而定。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一個部會可以申請？"],["朱主計長澤民：前瞻基礎建設裡面有八項，只要符合前瞻基礎建設裡面的那八項，都可以申請。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後我跟你講一個很嚴重、很嚴肅的問題，台電資本額在112年1月是3,300億，我們立法院通過給它1,500億，所以變4,800億，今年又增加1,000億，等於5,800億。我請問你，疫後經濟那個退稅的，我們給它500億，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員士葆：500億不是增資喔，是補貼燃料費用，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好了，它在1月23號，也就是上上個月，他到行政院開會，當時你也在嘛，對不對？你在嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我忘記了。"],["賴委員士葆：還「忘記了」！你就在啊！拜託喔！他向陳揆陳建仁報告台電要再爭取1,000億的補貼，不是增資喔，現在它的資本額已經5,800億，加上疫後給它500億，現在又要增加1,000億。陳建仁指示主計總處趕快核算，請問你核算的結果怎麼樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是他們的一個討論過程，最後要看經濟部提來的方案是多少，我們才能夠做決定。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要給他？他說如果爭取不到1,000億的補貼，就要大幅漲電價，台電恐嚇你！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下……"],["賴委員士葆：台電恐嚇你，恐嚇全民！"],["朱主計長澤民：那個所謂的大幅漲電價，我們相對於其他國家比較起來，那個是小幅。"],["賴委員士葆：10%是小幅嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，那個是……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，10%是不是小幅？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得是10%。"],["賴委員士葆：現在聽到的是11%啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有聽說過10%、11%……"],["賴委員士葆：媒體報導你沒有在看嗎？媒體寫11%啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：媒體，我不曉得是誰……"],["賴委員士葆：媒體亂寫的是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有看到方案，我沒有看到方案。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我要跟你提醒你一點，對於台電，我們一直給它增資、一直給它增資，然後也給它補貼，像疫後經濟給它補貼500億，現在又跟你要1,000億，還要漲價！台電可以這樣做嗎？剛才委員提的很好，吳秉叡委員提的很好，像台積電錢賺得這麼多，股票一直漲，結果它用的電都是台電虧本賣給它的電，這個東西老實講要區別嘛，不是這樣嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，台積電也很努力的節能以及做綠能……"],["賴委員士葆：買綠電更貴……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們應該給予它鼓勵。"],["賴委員士葆：我要談最後一個小問題，讓你知道一下，台電這樣子一直增資下來以後，台電有1萬個左右的小股東，大部分都是台電的員工家屬買的，變成壁紙了啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：委員，您應該知道，您念企管的，增資跟補貼最後淨值都一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼意思我聽不懂？淨值一樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：增資是在股東權益裡面，所謂的補貼是用未分配盈餘或者是他……"],["賴委員士葆：補貼以後就賣掉，補貼就當費用，就用掉了……"],["朱主計長澤民：最後都是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在沒有時間跟你扯這個，你找時間來跟我討論這個問題，你這個亂講一通。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有、沒有，委員，你去看看你以前寫的書就知道了。"],["主席：主計長，請提書面補充資料。謝謝。","下一位質詢請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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cap身心障礙那大概每年大概1000個1000個受虐"},{"start":84.781,"end":112.902,"text":"身心障礙的兒少有多少呢?大概5.2萬人左右身心障礙的兒少5.2萬但是狩獵的1000人每年一直成長啊這是你的報告圖表已經就不列了齁我都是根據你的報告來的齁那我給你個數字一般的一般的我們台灣全國的兒童狩獵有多少人一年"},{"start":114.775,"end":137.009,"text":"你知道嗎?大概1萬人左右,超過1萬人所以大概每10萬人40個左右就受虐了一般的不是只有身心障礙的受虐這個數字你已經提出了你的報告在113年上個月2月17號你講的父或者母20歲"},{"start":140.594,"end":165.976,"text":"提這個6歲以下兒童也就是這個6歲以下的兒童他的爸爸媽媽是沒有滿20歲沒有滿20歲的若是兒童主動關懷方案這是衛生部提出來的為人落實辦理啊你得修理衛生部啊跟衛生部提這個6歲以下的"},{"start":167.077,"end":183.827,"text":"若是兒童的一個照顧沒有若是辦理含情衛務部研磨改善我把這兩個都是你的報告你的一個審計報告我覺得讓你表演一下表現一下"},{"start":185.248,"end":205.565,"text":"你對衛福部有什麼進一步的要求?最近衛福部得頂了饅頭包、竹端籠使得安全然後又來一個受虐偶的事情都是轟動整個社會兩大事件衛福部就一路擺爛等於是一個看守政府現在變成無政府動態的一個標竿就是衛福部來你講一下"},{"start":210.305,"end":218.448,"text":"我的業務是在後面,他的業務部的業務在前面所以他受到的衝擊會比較大所以我們都會提醒他這個地方要注意,尤其很熱術的地方"},{"start":235.555,"end":237.897,"text":"我提醒他我們要做注意對民眾會產生以後會產生一些社會問題所以我們都會提醒"},{"start":255.575,"end":277.379,"text":"他有沒有報告給你啊他會他會他會這個結果發生了你看二月十七經歷不到一個月一個月的時間發生這個裂頭案就代表他執行的不徹底啊因為我們的二月二十七的一件鋼器他可能還在在整個還有針對蘇丹隆的事情你有沒有列印"},{"start":279.179,"end":296.583,"text":"賴...賴...賴案去管有沒有蘇丹宏的事情113年度對蘇丹宏他因為關係到民眾民眾很大會前面調查蘇丹宏沒有專案調查不只蘇丹宏我們整個還有什麼還有什麼列專案整個食品安全喔整個天安部整個天安部啦你要講還有什麼"},{"start":304.445,"end":325.903,"text":"我們沒有救品相,我們救他整個制度,整個像沿途管理啦,邊境查案啦那你們現在查到蘇丹鴻罪犯的問題在哪裡?我們的蘇丹鴻因為他是個案事件啦,他會和整個不是個案啦,是全面啦,大家都說錯,在座每一個人都說錯"},{"start":326.764,"end":328.145,"text":"大概我會6、7月會做會整個查完查完會寫報告大概我會寫在我的112年的審核報告裡面"},{"start":355.224,"end":368.769,"text":"這7月份你的針對蘇丹宏一定出來,是不是?蘇丹宏我們會順便瞭解不是順便瞭解,要專案瞭解啦,現在大家全民大家說你錯到要死了好這個委員這樣都要求我們趙委員的意思"},{"start":370.686,"end":371.126,"text":"朱主計長朱主計長"},{"start":398.604,"end":417.78,"text":"你接受媒體專訪的時候我沒有接受專訪啊媒體訪問你說你說確定不做了沒有他們我是在上次國民所託評審會的時候我說有可能是最後一次對喔所以現在撬回來喔所以現在撬回來我沒有說可能的我的我的派令只到5月19號跟委員報告"},{"start":425.326,"end":431.331,"text":"沒有任何人沒有任何人跟我提未來做不做我在這邊講說我不做我不做那個好像太矯情了謝謝"},{"start":447.854,"end":457.09,"text":"萬里真的找你做勒我覺得我這8年已經該休息了中華民國有很多人失火之後你下面就一堆了的人"},{"start":458.26,"end":463.903,"text":"所以你可以講 ENOUGH IS ENOUGH 夠了是不是?"},{"start":463.903,"end":472.027,"text":"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH這個同意喔?當然有另外一個解讀啦有另外一個解讀是說你以退為進說 主計長我要擺左了啦"},{"start":478.71,"end":479.571,"text":"提到一個事情了"},{"start":501.255,"end":523.571,"text":"這個CPI、GDP大家都問了齁我就只有點一個你每一次預估都比其他的比如說你預估的央行比INF都樂觀跟那個委員報告一下在同一個時間點每一個都一樣因為我們預估的比較早他們就在後面修正所以他看起來好像所以他們比較準你比較不準"},{"start":524.992,"end":545.951,"text":"他們比較準你比較準所以比較不準所以是說因為那個是怎麼掌握的事實掌握的事實比較多 謝謝所以你比較不準的聽沒有沒有我比較他如果說跟我同同一個時候預估的話我們就沒有說什麼我請教你啊那個"},{"start":548.033,"end":568.379,"text":"前單現在還剩多少錢?前單的話如果第4期結束好像是上,不是好像,就是剩下幾百零四億元。今年底就結束了嗎?沒有沒有沒有,要到今年8月才是7月。今年7月8月結束,所以700億就繳酷了?明年7月8月,對不對?明年7月8月?"},{"start":572.92,"end":598.35,"text":"那到底是什麼﹖哪一方面執行落後怎麼會還是7、8月沒有沒有前瞻沒有落後因為本來就是最後就是大概8個月就是本來他前瞻不是從蔡政府第一天任期就開始做是到7、8月才做的那你有沒有鼓勵其他的人趕快來申請現在也可以申請嗎"},{"start":600.627,"end":616.324,"text":"那個700億還沒有,還沒有定案啊,這將來是有過部會議﹖就是有700億還沒有申請的嘛,就這樣講到﹖對啦,那個是要他過部會議﹖哪個項目比較多﹖沒有哪個項目,我們是看需求的情況而定﹖"},{"start":617.265,"end":634.035,"text":"而是哪一個部會可以申請?那個是什麼?那個前瞻基礎建設裡面有說那個八項都只要符合前瞻基礎建設裡面的那個八項都可以申請好!最後一個跟你講一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":636.872,"end":640.577,"text":"排電資本額原來在113年1月3300億我們立法院通過給了1500億所以變4800那今年又增加1000等於要5800"},{"start":652.831,"end":675.617,"text":"那忘了我請問你一號經濟那個退稅的我們給500億對不對對500億不是資本不是政治喔補貼燃料費用對對對不對好了他現在1月23號上上個月他到行政院開會沒有在嘛對不對"},{"start":676.98,"end":697.625,"text":"我忘記了我還在忘記你去摘你拜託他向陳奎陳俊仁報告台電的說要再爭取一千億的補貼不是爭之後他現在資本額已經五千八加億後給他五百億現在又增加一千億"},{"start":699.405,"end":726.845,"text":"陳建民指示主計總處趕快核算你核算結果怎麼樣那個是他們的一個討論的過程的阿討論的過程最後的阿要看那個經濟部提來的方案是多少我們才能夠做決定阿你要不要給他他說如果爭取不到一千億的補貼就要大幅漲電價台電恐嚇你欸那個跟那個委員報告台電恐嚇你恐嚇全民"},{"start":727.625,"end":755.649,"text":"那個所謂的大壺漲電價都我們相對於其他國家比較起來那個是小壺是小壺10%是小壺嗎10%是小壺我不曉得是10%現在聽到是11%啦吼我沒有聽到過10%、11%阿媒體你不看媒體這11%阿媒體我不曉得是誰啦媒體內閒的是不是我沒有看到方案我沒有看到方案沒有沒有我要跟你提醒一點喔"},{"start":757.233,"end":768.284,"text":"臺電我們一直給他增資一直給他增資然後呢給他補貼日後經濟給他補貼五百現在跟你要一千還要漲價臺電甘願意阻"},{"start":772.346,"end":791.899,"text":"對嗎?剛才委員提得很好啊,吳平委員提得很好啊,像台積電幾天都這麼多,股票一直漲,結果他用的電用的都是台電虧本賣給他的電,這個東西老實講要區別嘛,是不是這樣?我跟委員報告一下,台積電也很努力的截人以及做綠人,我們應該給他顧慮"},{"start":794.361,"end":814.497,"text":"我要請到最後一個小問題讓你知道一下臺電這樣子一直增資下來以後臺電有1萬個左右的小股東大部分都是臺電的員工家屬買的變成幣值啊委員跟那個委員你應該知道林彥氣管的增資跟那個補貼最後淨值都一樣"},{"start":816.178,"end":831.067,"text":"什麼意思我聽不到?禁止用?你爭執是在補充權益裡面啊那個所謂的補貼是用未分配言語或者是補貼以後就賣掉補貼要當費用用掉了現在沒有誰跟你扯這個沒找時間來跟我討論這個問題你這個亂講一套的這個沒有沒有委員你看看你以前寫的書就知道事情了好謝謝"},{"start":845.779,"end":846.445,"text":"現在質詢請郭國環、郭昭瑋"}]}},{"id":"149745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690398dc0ec28df999d033e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:43:19 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capacity，它的產能過剩的問題，其實在未來兩、三年會越來越明顯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是其實對於這些中小企業或者是外銷為主的生產廠家而言，他們認為在這一種我們電價還有這些相關的關稅談判都沒有辦法有突破的情況下，讓他們在臺灣生產變成非常非常嚴峻的問題，這也會造成失業率的問題等等。"],["王部長美花：這個部分兩個面向，一個就是說事實上臺灣有一個非常綿密的供應鏈，所以在臺灣的好處有臺灣的優點，另外一方面就是電價的部分或者節電的部分或者減碳本來就是個國際大趨勢，所以政府願意花比較多的資源來對中小企業低碳化、智慧化的部分，讓它節省相關的支出，而且坦白講，國際客戶也好或者它的供應鏈也都會看它有沒有做好這些ESG的減碳工作，所以這個部分我們一定會去協助中小企業，委員如果有需要，我們也其實都非常樂意到各個中小企業的聚落去跟他們做一個交流。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，其實我有看到我們的PPI跟CPI指數，每一次電價上漲，你看電價如果調整的時候，PPI就是生產物價指數，製造端的生產成本就增加嘛！所以造成整個兩個都是雙漲的情況，代表了我們只要漲電價，它就會轉嫁到所有的消費者身上，所以這也就是為什麼大家在跟部長說的，民生電價的部分，如果你已經漲工業電價，其實就會影響到民生的消費者指數了，未來如果再漲民生電價，等於對他們來講就是雙重漲價，全部都會讓所有的民眾認為他們的痛苦指數有可能就會攀升。"],["王部長美花：這個部分我們確實像上一次、兩次，我們就有一些經驗，讓這個對國內物價的部分的衝擊怎麼樣可以降到最小等等。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是前面兩次都沒有民生嘛！對不對？"],["王部長美花：其實小商家的部分或者民生用電的部分，確實都有依用電量的大小做不同的規劃，這個就是在過去的兩次漲價裡面不斷地在優化的相關機制。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是我必須要告訴部長，從歷史的數字看來，只要工業的電價漲，對於物價指數就會造成連動性的，這是連動性，從PPI跟CPI來看就是連動性的漲幅，所以你必須要看。再來就是3月15號聽說我們的碳費審議委員會也要登場了是不是？這個也會影響到製造業者，是不是？"],["王部長美花：相關的碳費審議環境部會開始來召開……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是你們經濟部一定要密切關注，是不是？"],["王部長美花：我們會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們目前掌握的情況是如何？"],["王部長美花：因為第一次好像是這個禮拜五才開始召開，之前我們其實也有跟產業界做非常多的溝通，我們也會把產業界的意見反映給環境部。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果現在電價也漲，然後未來馬上又開徵碳費的情況下，對於製造端會產生什麼樣的影響？今年主計處還調高我們的經濟成長率是3.43%，我們有沒有辦法維持這麼高的經濟成長率？"],["王部長美花：所以相關的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會影響，對不對？現在看起來好像我們的接單很順暢，但是在這種雙重的影響下，漲電價然後開徵碳費，會不會對於我們的製造業以及我們的景氣預估有相關的影響，經濟部的評估是怎麼樣？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員提醒，所以在經濟部的電價部分，我們才會一直爭取政府的補貼做最優先，相關的影響、產業的通膨、PPI等等，我們也會非常審慎，不過確實臺灣電價的漲其實都比其他國家緩非常多，甚至我們看到韓電，它在去年底已經轉虧為盈了，韓電漲了84%等等，所以對於臺灣來講，我們確實是更為謹慎來調漲相關的電價，當然我們最希望是政府可以比較多的補貼。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：謝謝，我們再請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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業別還有住宅小商家跟產業的部分做不同的情形來做相關的討論"},{"start":74.767,"end":89.326,"text":"我們知道對於傳產業者他們也有一些意見就是說其實我們看到從去年就是說從今年初我們的那個就是ECFA的十二項實話的終止以後"},{"start":90.868,"end":90.888,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":108.339,"end":123.534,"text":"因為很多國外的買家跟他們要求就是你也知道就所謂的臺灣家他希望在臺灣以外的東南亞再設置新的生產的基地那對於"},{"start":124.655,"end":126.877,"text":"對於台灣的經濟當然我們知道說經濟部現在你規劃的是我們朝向高職化的但是在這個銜接的過程當中其實我們還是有非常多調節上面的問題是不是"},{"start":150.771,"end":154.152,"text":"謝謝委員那確實有幾個不同的面向那包括比如說石化業好了那我們其實這個在這個去年開始就跟石化業非常密集來討論石化業確實怎麼樣升級轉型以及做國際的分散佈局那所以我們今年會特別石化業剛才我也提到連結這個機械甚至紡織一起來打新興市場那這個政府確實每個禮拜"},{"start":178.297,"end":178.317,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":203.383,"end":206.866,"text":"面對現在的國際情形臺灣的強項那怎麼樣做更好的一個爭取戰其實都一定會要趕快加速特別是有幾個產業中國其實有一點這個over capacity他的產能過剩的問題其實在未來的兩三年會越來越明顯"},{"start":223.058,"end":247.951,"text":"但是其實對於這些中小企業或者是外銷為主的這些生產的廠家而言他們認為說就是說在這種我們電價還有這些相關的就是關稅的談判都沒有辦法有突破的情況下讓他們在台灣生產變成非常嚴峻的問題那這也會造成失業率的問題等等的"},{"start":248.251,"end":249.992,"text":"當然這個部分兩個面向一個就是說事實上台灣是有一個非常綿密的供應鏈所以在台灣的好處有台灣的優點那另外一方面就是說電價的部分或者節電的部分或者減碳本來就是個國際大趨勢"},{"start":264.961,"end":292.378,"text":"所以政府願意花比較多的資源來對這個中小企業他低碳化智慧化的部分來讓他節省相關的支出而且坦白講那個國際客戶也好或者他的供應鏈也都會看他有沒有做好這些ESG的減碳的工作那所以這個部分我們一定會去協助中小企業那委員如果有需要我們也其實都非常樂意到各個中小企業的聚落去跟他們做一個交流"},{"start":293.138,"end":318.672,"text":"還有其實我有看到那個我們的PPI跟CPI的指數那每一次的電價上漲的你看電價如果調整的時候PPI就是生產物價指數那就是製造端所就是說它的生產成本就增加那所以造成就是整個兩個都是雙漲的情況那代表了我們只要漲電價它就會轉嫁到所有的消費者的身上"},{"start":319.252,"end":346.05,"text":"所以這也就是為什麼大家在跟部長說的民生電價的部分如果你已經漲工業電價其實就會影響到民生的這個就是消費者的指數了那未來如果再漲民生電價那就是等於對他們來講就是雙重漲價那全部都會讓所有的民眾認為他們的痛苦指數有可能就會攀升"},{"start":346.95,"end":347.471,"text":"但是前面兩次都沒有名聲,對不對?"},{"start":361.787,"end":386.215,"text":"小商家的部分或者民生用電的部分確實都有做不同的你用電量的大小做不同的一個規劃那這個就是在過去的兩次的漲價裡面不斷的在優化這個相關的一個機制可是我必須要告訴部長從這個歷史的數字看來只要你就是工業的電價漲"},{"start":387.495,"end":409.106,"text":"那對於就是物價指數就會造成聯動性的這是聯動性從PPI跟CPI來看就是聯動性的這樣子的長幅所以你必須要看再來就是3月15日聽說我們的碳費審議委員會也要登場了是不是那這個也會影響到"},{"start":410.487,"end":419.173,"text":"制造業者是不是相關的碳費的審議這邊是環境部會開始來召開我知道可是你們經濟部一定要密切關注我們會我們其實目前掌握情況是如何的因為第一次下個好像是這個禮拜五才開始召開那之前我們其實也有跟產業界有做非常多的溝通我們也會把產業界的這些意見也有反映給這個環境部"},{"start":439.426,"end":452.335,"text":"如果現在電價也漲然後未來馬上又開偵探費的情況下那對於製造端會產生什麼樣影響那今年主計處還調高我們的經濟成長率是3.43%那我們有沒有辦法維持這麼高的經濟成長率啊"},{"start":459.66,"end":465.202,"text":"所以這個相關的會不會影響啊對不對我們現在看起來好像我們的接單很順暢但是在這種雙重的影響下漲電價然後開徵碳費會不會對於我們的製造業以及我們的景氣預估有相關的影響那經濟部的評估是怎麼樣謝謝委員提醒那所以在經濟部的電價部分那所以我們才會一直來爭取政府的補貼做最優先"},{"start":489.292,"end":491.873,"text":"那那個相關的這個影響產業的通膨PPI等等我們也會非常審慎那不過就是說確實臺灣的這個電價的漲其實都比其他國家緩非常多那甚至我們看到韓電他在去年底已經變成轉虧為盈了他甚至都還那他就是韓電漲了84%等等那所以對臺灣來講我們確實是更為謹慎"},{"start":517.739,"end":526.067,"text":"﹚"}]}},{"id":"149744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903682cf40cb9f85fe696e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a69930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:39:42 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camp，讓這些學生可以在暑假或者寒假期間，提早學習華語，因為很多國家不見得把華語列入他們必修的語言課程裡面。英文是他們必修，但顯然的華語還不是，所以我們要提供更多元的管道，讓他們可以免費的來學習華語。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["徐委員長佳青：確實我們有在布局亞太地區，在準備當中。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝委員長，我知道您非常的努力，因為上任以來，我看您及兩位副委員長，到全世界去針對僑生、僑務盡了很大的心力，以上，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝羅委員。"],["主席：接下來請黃仁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.30784375,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.67596875000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.26221875,"end":122.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.66159375000001,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.59534375,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.11409375000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.97471875000002,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.16534375000003,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.96534375000005,"end":418.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.05409375000005,"end":427.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.76159375000003,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":452.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.12909375000004,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.96409375,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.96846875000006,"end":559.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.96034375,"end":596.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.26721875,"end":567.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.0772187499999,"end":568.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.26284375,"end":568.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.81971875,"end":597.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.0178437500001,"end":642.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.0515937499999,"end":598.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.10409375,"end":639.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.96846875,"end":656.73846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.429,"end":5.211,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐佳青委員長請徐委員長羅委員你好委員長早安今天呢要跟委員長探討的主要的議題是產學攜手合作僑生專班其實我們剛有看到委員長跟僑委會的這個努力"},{"start":26.697,"end":55.125,"text":"從第一屆開始我們看這個入學的人數剛開始就有281人剛剛委員長有報告就是說到我們現在第10屆112人其實我們入學人數已經成長到4069人這是一個很不容易的成績我也相信委員長跟我們的同仁都是很努力的在這個海外來做這個招生那可是呢之前因為本時有看到一份這個監察院的這個報告"},{"start":55.925,"end":55.945,"text":"僑務委員會議員"},{"start":84.977,"end":85.077,"text":"：羅美玲議員"},{"start":113.424,"end":140.87,"text":"我們來看一下這個103年到這個105年我們可以看到暨高端的入學的人數跟後來要對接到這個暨專端的部分他三年之後要轉到這個暨專端我們看到大概有七成七成多可是問題是出在這個畢業的這個人數他到了這個科技大學之後其實他畢業的人數真的是非常的低大概"},{"start":141.69,"end":141.71,"text":"請問委員長"},{"start":171.107,"end":172.829,"text":"謝謝委員的這個指教確實我們也注意到了從103年開始籌辦的這個產息專班他在入學到最後進入這個季專畢業的人數這樣相乘起來確實是偏低"},{"start":189.588,"end":193.629,"text":"那麼所以過去這將近8年的時間呢我們因此找出了相關的一些問題那麼近年來我們已經大幅的在修正這些狀況那主要有兩個面向第一個就是說他們在高中的部分在高職端學校的這個培育跟他們學生的這個興趣之間有時候有些落差的時候那麼學生就會提早離開了因此就沒有畢業"},{"start":218.655,"end":247.994,"text":"那所以從高一高二到高三這個真的畢業然後能夠直接轉到那個技術型大學的這樣的比例就就大幅下滑了所以最主要我們是現在積極的都在輔導我們在高止端希望好不容易學生有興趣來到台灣讀書所以他們無論在生活或者就學學習的這個情況上面我們都高度的在關注希望他們可以"},{"start":248.894,"end":249.174,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":270.64,"end":275.903,"text":"那過去因為也我們只有適用這個叫做勞動部的評點制的模式當時是有一個限量的這個名額那隨著這幾年越來越多的僑生外籍生進來勞動部當然也從善如流一直把這個評點制的名額從過去只有1500快速擴大到6000還持續在增加希望說把這個"},{"start":295.095,"end":302.437,"text":"臥底把它拿掉只要符合這個評點分數的學生過去從120分我們也已經提放寬到70分就可以留下來所以近年來是有比較多的學生已經可以留在台灣用評點制在台灣工作那這項相關的制度也有可能隨著未來的政策規劃跟修法的通過會全面性的大改革"},{"start":319.642,"end":324.725,"text":"所以這是我們所了解學生之所以在台灣歷經7年之後而未能留在台灣繼續發展很重要的原因而且這是相當可惜的因為我們花了這麼多的精神國家的經費培育這些人才卻沒有讓他們能夠留在台灣所用"},{"start":341.796,"end":346.721,"text":"這是非常可惜的事情所以現在大的政策方向確實是已經做了很多修正希望未來都讓在到台灣讀書的僑生學成之後只要他們有意願我們也大力的鼓勵他們留在台灣工作或者是繼續在這邊發展"},{"start":361.636,"end":385.455,"text":"所以去年開始我們就辦了就業博覽會就是希望說能夠幫他們大量的媒合在他們還沒畢業前就找到適合的工作那確實經過這樣子的努力最近這段時間以來是逐漸有在好轉當中我們也期待說未來因為過去這三年還有一些是因為疫情因素的影響所以這些不利因素我想現在都逐漸消除了那我們會很積極的在未來持續讓能夠來台灣讀書的孩子"},{"start":390.839,"end":390.979,"text":"﹚羅美玲﹚"},{"start":418.069,"end":418.369,"text":"．羅美玲"},{"start":443.058,"end":443.238,"text":"僑務委員：羅美玲"},{"start":458.993,"end":464.135,"text":"非常謝謝委員提供這樣的提問事實上我們確實有注意到來自不同國家由於他的華語的程度不同會很大的影響了他在這邊的學習狀況及生活適應所以近年來我們就開始從去年開始我一國一國跑完那也充分掌握一些狀況就是希望他們在離開母國前他們就可以在當地提升他們的華語程度"},{"start":484.565,"end":484.845,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告業務概況"},{"start":506.605,"end":528.476,"text":"是,委員長剛你有提到就是說所謂的這個華語程度我就讓我聯想到剛剛徐委員所提到的台灣華語文學習中心目前我們最主要的方案還是在歐美嘛對不對美國目前有66所剩下18所是在歐洲可是因為這個方案可能是針對歐美而來四年計劃嘛我所了解是這樣子那有沒有可能以後這個華語文學習中心"},{"start":530.097,"end":530.237,"text":"李慧琼"},{"start":560.037,"end":568.499,"text":"跟委員報告我們臺灣華語文學習中心是因為2020年美國國務院與臺灣外交部簽訂這個臺美教育倡議來發展起來那這個計畫本身是針對成人那如果非成人18歲以下事實上我們在全球也積極的在提供各種的橋校的華語課程那所以他們所使用的教材跟師資事實上是有不同的level不同的這個做法"},{"start":587.845,"end":588.085,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：羅美玲"},{"start":613.021,"end":613.061,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":632.399,"end":632.439,"text":"羅美玲議員"}]}},{"id":"149743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903ae8253fbab0ff90e14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a68cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:40:15 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一切規劃"},{"start":492.142,"end":495.008,"text":"謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝邱鎮軍委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"149742","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690377a3c0b62181ef8d14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a643ba2ecc2b3ce5ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:31:20 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不好我這個我可以來再瞭解我記得我們各分署會針對我們原住民的"},{"start":135.854,"end":150.344,"text":"那個老公朋友會有專班專班的職業訓練所以應該他的上課時間我在想應該大部分都是6日對不對我在想啦我不知道這個沒關係對可是因為既然沒有辦法配合的話你應該要調整那個上課時間"},{"start":151.445,"end":176.343,"text":"報告委員這個我來請同仁他們來做改善第二個也是蠻高的就是沒有想要參加的課程所以你是不是應該先做一個類似像調查他們想要上什麼課才開那樣的課如果你看那樣的課沒有人要上你開有什麼意義是不是因為他的percentage還是蠻高的到最後這個110年的時候還有大概五分之一是不滿意他安排的你們安排的課程好不好我們來做調整好"},{"start":180.629,"end":193.187,"text":"目前公部門他有些應該是應該要足以運用原住民的他還是有一些地方是缺15還有缺16的這個部分希望你能夠去了解為什麼他們沒有辦法達到好不好"},{"start":195.989,"end":216.715,"text":"好,這個我來瞭解一下,我請同仁來瞭解目前做得最好,全國做得最好是桃園市就原住民就業這個部分那我希望如果你覺得桃園市現在的數據是桃園市最好的話你們應該去參考桃園市是怎麼做的然後再推廣到全省這樣,可以嗎?可以,會後來瞭解"},{"start":218.309,"end":247.257,"text":"現在一直在做多元就業開發方案也就是說希望留住在地的青年來培育我們或者是中老年的一些在地就業目前我看到的一個比較好的一個是叫沙老部落我們這樣念他的主語叫沙道沙豆那我看我看到的是他原本是沒有一個遊客可以造訪那個地區經過他們的努力一年可以超過400人也就是說可能就產生一些超過60萬台幣的一個產值就可以養活在地的人"},{"start":247.797,"end":266.516,"text":"那如果說這樣的一個模式是成功的話能不能在很多的地區開始示範啊或者是說去鼓勵他們做這樣子的一個在地就業他們就不用離鄉背井來工作好不好好好謝謝這個沒問題好下一頁那我們最後來萬美指可一下目前南韓的那個最低薪資"},{"start":267.697,"end":281.978,"text":"是在OECD的排名是這樣子是在不是在前面是在等於是在十幾名如果這樣子看12345678913名那13名的最低薪資遠高於我們"},{"start":283.171,"end":297.57,"text":"好那我覺得說我們在做最低薪資的一個做你們的計畫的或者是目標的時候有沒有一個主念的你預期應該達到什麼樣的一個價位讓我們的勞工可以滿意報告委員我們其實去年"},{"start":298.231,"end":310.217,"text":"年底已經通過最低工資法那未來我們在最低工資的審議的時候會有專家先提出研究的報告那勞資政協雙方也會在討論的時候會斟酌各種這個"},{"start":314.699,"end":318.822,"text":"日及14日二天一次會議員：盧縣一日及14日二天一次會議員：盧縣一日及14日"},{"start":340.959,"end":361.102,"text":"好那如果說我們相對就我們這樣的心智的話我們是不是應該都有罷工的權利我希望還是省省的思考一個機制這個提升勞工的薪資是我們一直要努力的目標然後我們會持續我們在做一些先進國家的一個年收入跟月收入一個比較那"},{"start":362.082,"end":378.532,"text":"而在這裡面只有新加坡有有在這個比較下面的排名也就是說新加坡的一個如果是就月收入來說已經到達5600美金是目前我們台灣如果換算台幣的話是17萬這是他平均的"},{"start":379.292,"end":398.245,"text":"收入而不是最高跟最低所以我們還是要檢討我們為什麼國內的收入是普遍低於我們之前可以相併併比的是小龍可以嗎好我可以親自的提高好其實跨部會是大家一起來努力本一個自的選擇來朝這個目標來賣進"},{"start":410.083,"end":438.713,"text":"我以為還有一點時間我還是希望能夠講一下職業安全的部分那因為在我們知道在桃園尤其是很多工廠的地方有沒有想過如果當時如果發生一些比如說工廠的爆炸啦或者是一些重大的一些職業災害啊有沒有在地可以處理的一個醫療院所因為基本上我知道如果說像桃園的福地也蠻大的如果說全部送到林口常科醫院的話"},{"start":439.733,"end":468.592,"text":"那可能會爆量或者是我們所謂的不利桃園醫院所以在沿海地區的一些緊急救治的一些傷患的一些急救站你們有沒有考慮過說要去設置因為它的工廠的密度非常高所以你們在規劃的時候是不是應該要去想說為了防範以後發生的重大意外那你在後送的時候或是緊急處理的時候是不是有一個相對的一個治療點你們有沒有在這樣想"},{"start":469.372,"end":484.319,"text":"有有報告委員我們其實現在就是有陸續建置我們的那個轉整治的專者醫院還有我們的那個網絡醫院那個就是說要真讓你是用幾公里算還是用幾分鐘算"},{"start":485.279,"end":499.902,"text":"好應該是要有一個數據來出來讓我們讓我們的勞工朋友能夠安心可以嗎盡量進變啦就是我們鼓勵像網絡醫院我們盡量把它擴大就是有有意願要來加入網絡醫院的我們都好對那你政治好以後"},{"start":500.923,"end":507.468,"text":"在地的工作都是我們原住民青年我也希望能夠保障他們就業的安全跟工作安全好嗎好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":529.485,"end":529.626,"text":"謝謝盧縣一委員"}]}},{"id":"149741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903da75fd72be8bdad43ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6a6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:34:34 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我們總是定個目標"},{"start":288.342,"end":301.077,"text":"我想7月7月之前應該可以完成7月之前完成完成是你們出爐還是送審議委還是送那個監理會通過監理會通過在7月之前通過對好這個部分齁"},{"start":304.482,"end":319.849,"text":"我想這個在下半年測試之前我是覺得這是你們自己制定的啦制定要做這個實施計畫而且要報這個退府除金的監理會要報這個監理會來審議啦所以這個部分我希望說你們能夠掌握時間是"},{"start":322.199,"end":340.653,"text":"再來就是這個其實對這些初任公務人員來講這個是一個新的制度而且這個制度他需要很多的這個宣導的過程包括未來你們也提到說每年至少要一次投資組合投資標的組合的轉換作業這些轉換作業到底要怎麼做"},{"start":341.554,"end":366.227,"text":"這些都需要很多的宣導啦但是我看到你們目前的宣導作為其實真的是有點弱啦齁這個我看到的就是你們在網站上面有這個退府局的網站上面有一個宣導有兩支宣導短片兩支宣導短片他的我看點閱率大概1000人左右但是他訂閱人是6個人啦齁6個人這樣的宣導的"},{"start":371.345,"end":395.874,"text":"我們下半年還要加強這個宣導作為尤其是你們實施辦法出來之後你們只有半年的時間在測試這半年時間測試之後馬上就在明年1月1號就要上路了是,我們會加強測試然後積極宣導好,這部分請你要加強不要等閒視之不好意思接下來我們請這個考選部考選部許部長新許部長"},{"start":400.416,"end":428.395,"text":"許副長,我看我們自己考選部的業務概況報告也有檢討這幾年我們公務人員的報考數一路下滑到現在手上有的統計資料到111年的時候是報考剩下21萬人倒考的人更少有報名但是真的倒考的才掉到13萬人"},{"start":430.936,"end":454.887,"text":"這些齁這個你們當然我看到你們的檢討啦齁這個全球情勢變遷啦人工智慧時代啦少子化啦這個好像這個這個問題這個問題是好像不是你們的問題這個是全世界的問題啦齁但是我們總是要有所因應嘛有所因應的部分我看到你們說要推動公務員的招募措施裡面"},{"start":456.069,"end":479.68,"text":"我比較有興趣我看到你們這個113年考選業務概況報告第4頁到第7頁你們有說擴大推動公務人員招考的措施這個你們有第一個你們說要幹什麼呢第一個要宣導第二個要這個透過藝文走廊第三個要考選集粹要座談召開座談這些都是"},{"start":481.36,"end":501.728,"text":"這些都是說實在是實在是我不曉得說你這想要達到什麼樣的目的但是我特別注意裡面有一個比較特別的你們提到說你們要舉辦預備文官團離島文官領航體驗營你們認為這個是增加這個報考人數的一個重大的新的措施請問你們到目前為止辦了幾屆"},{"start":504.131,"end":521.98,"text":"兩次一次跟基隆市政府一次跟連江縣政府這個參加的人數有多少31位那目前已經有5位考上公務員兩個提示加起來31位那你們的這個招募的對象大概是在學的學生是不是在學的學生"},{"start":523.666,"end":548.743,"text":"我看你們的這個業務報告裡面有提到有關這個這個精進措施推動文官團你們有進程計畫有中程計畫有遠程計畫對不對是中程計畫從什麼時候開始我想我們現在正在規劃我們希望有一個完整的一個方案這個部長你們你們這個這個"},{"start":551.894,"end":560.379,"text":"111年11月3號你們的這個中央業務報告裡面提到了你們的進程計畫是2021年到2024年中程計畫是2025年到2028年明年就要進入中程計畫了你們到目前為止辦兩次參加31人"},{"start":570.062,"end":590.278,"text":"坦白說我想我們參考新加坡事實上從高中跟大學新加坡政府就投入大量的資源在培育公務人才英國也有快速升遷的管道但是我們事實上是沒有這樣的機制所以我們希望某種程度來規劃這樣的一個機制"},{"start":597.923,"end":614.313,"text":"需要的就是這個啦部長我今天要跟你溝通就是這個你這辦這個預備文官團你如果沒有相關的機制相關的誘因讓他跟未來這個文官體制的職場的相關的銜接跟誘因你這個就跟參加戰鬥營參加暑假的營隊"},{"start":616.465,"end":616.765,"text":"但是部長但是"},{"start":643.737,"end":644.297,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":673.763,"end":688.564,"text":"你總不能到明年進入中層計畫的結果你還在我們法制委員希望年底前就能夠完成這個部分我想既然要做我們就把它好好的讓它這些相關的機制把它做好好不好是謝謝委員辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903ba47da5f1a2c0b553ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a610bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:03 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09:34:08","影片長度":"00:16:05","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":965,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:34:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:18:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請劉秘書長、周部長以及郝主任委員。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長、周部長以及郝主任委員，請三位就發言台。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長、部長、主委，三位其實都是我多年的好友，以前見面都要稱學長、學姐還有老師，不過我們今天在不同的位置上，雖然屬於不同的黨派，我們一起為國家做事情。改革不能期待一蹴可幾，但更糟糕的是原地踏步。秘書長，你認不認同？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我同意。"],["黃委員國昌：你還記不記得你最近看到這句話是什麼時候？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這句話是我寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！你們在2022年的時候去日本考察，回來的報告我全部都拜讀完了，我拜讀完那個出國考察報告以後，看到了這句話，心理感觸非常的深。最近我問了人事總處的人事長有關於消防弟兄安全防護的問題，2018年他在這個會議室承諾我要做的事，他沒做到，他那天很有擔當的道歉了。但事後，蔡總統6年以前的承諾，我那天開完會議後，聽到行政院副院長鄭文燦說沒有跳票的問題，去年已經開始研議了，我聽了心非常地痛，去年為什麼開始研議？不是因為6年前的敬鵬大火，是因為去年又有消防弟兄走了，屏東又走了消防弟兄，又開始研議了，過了6年以後，原地踏步，繼續持續地在研議當中。有很多消防弟兄看到上次質詢完鄭文燦的回應，非常憤怒，發訊息給我說10月12號他們被騙了、被摸頭了，答應他沒有上凱道，結果做完新聞後，消防員權益促進會再度發函給行政院，要求召開跨部會甚至跨院的會議，11月3號通知發出去，到現在已讀不回。我想這個辦法，包括秘書長、包括部長、包括郝主委都知道，這絕對不是保訓會一個部會的責任，我拜讀了，在立法院裡面好幾次，保訓會不管是前任的主委還是現任的郝主委，在討論到這個辦法時你們所展現的立場、態度，甚至有一些無奈，我在書面報告當中全部都看到了。但我要跟大家交換一個心得，我們在做這些事情時，一定要站在最基層消防弟兄的立場去想這件事情，他們看到的是一個又一個的弟兄走掉，秘書長，你知不知道，10年走了幾個消防弟兄？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：43位，平均每一年要走4位，站在他們的立場是大家都在踢皮球，他們看到的結果是經過了這幾年，這個安衛辦法完全沒有修正，我現在具體地請教，安衛辦法到現在，從他們的角度來看，什麼都沒有修哦！我請教一下郝主委，你們最近一次召開修安衛辦法的會議是什麼時候？"],["郝主任委員培芝：事實上我們從去年的10月、12月，一直到今年都有在……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，主委，你講到重點了，去年10月2號時，為什麼呂副主委建德要召開這個會議？您知道嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我當然知道，就是希望積極來修改相關的安衛辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：在去年10月2號前……"],["郝主任委員培芝：應該說更早，我們在108年、109年、110年、111年都有召開相關的會議。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我把序列全部整理出來了，您剛才所講的，2019年當時的主委有提辦法來，他為什麼提？因為那時發生桃園敬鵬的悲劇，提了辦法後停下來，不斷地研議，我看到最後一次是2021年3月25號人總把他們版本的安衛辦法提供給保訓會，因為保訓會2019年的辦法跟後來你們所提出來的辦法，這兩份辦法我拜讀了，你們整個內容的充實是在2021年人總提供後，你們在那個條文的基礎上繼續去改；但我要給大家看的是什麼？從2021年的3月到2023年的10月，整整2年半的時間，我剛剛請教郝主委，10月2號為什麼發那個會議通知，我當然知道，那個會議的主題是安衛辦法，10月的會議是9月的大火燒出來的，我這樣說應該公平吧？"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，在大環境來說，對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有9月的那場大火，或許根本不會有10月的這場會議。"],["郝主任委員培芝：應該是說我們過去都積極要研擬這個安衛辦法的……"],["黃委員國昌：對，然後積極研擬到今天，結果改了沒有？"],["郝主任委員培芝：已經提到考試院，也送到立法院來，但是因為還有一些意見沒辦法整合，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：這就是我剛剛要跟大家交換意見的地方。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們永遠要站在最基層的立場去想，每一個部會都可以講我們要研議、我們要徵詢意見，但他們看到的是什麼？6年過去了，這個辦法原地踏步。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，但是原地踏步是因為後來覺得對於消防人員的職安部分，最終極、最專業的保障如果能夠納入消防法裡面來做更完整的規劃，其實是對消防人員兄弟的權益更高的保障，更專業的一個……"],["黃委員國昌：您最近跟消促會的朋友坐下來談是什麼時候？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們在10月、11月、12月到今年的1月都有。"],["黃委員國昌：跟消促會的朋友？"],["郝主任委員培芝：10月跟12月我們有邀請消促會的朋友還有警察……"],["黃委員國昌：12月的那個會我也跟您報告一下，本來消防署是發函22號開會，結果聽到他們21號要去賴清德競選總部抗議後，馬上發會議通知改成20號，所有的歷程……"],["郝主任委員培芝：這是警政署……"],["黃委員國昌：所有的歷程我全部都掌握了。"],["郝主任委員培芝：最後是因為消防法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，您最近一次跟他們開會，他們希望修改的是什麼？"],["郝主任委員培芝：其實他們的態度有一些不一樣，最早是希望修安衛辦法，後來是希望回歸職安法，目前是希望修保障法，有些變化。"],["黃委員國昌：您先聽我講，他們的態度為什麼會變？一開始他們的確是希望要修安衛辦法，你如果是消防員，等了6年，原地踏步，你還願意繼續等下去嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為他們要求安衛辦法裡面要放入罰則，但安衛辦法是法規命令的層級，它必須要修保障法。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我都瞭解啦！"],["郝主任委員培芝：所以應該說現在消促會的態度……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我都瞭解啦！現在我的問題是，我們是經過了6年後、研議了6年後才知道原來安衛辦法沒辦法解決問題嘛﹗","我現在直接請教你，我跟這些消防弟兄，我不是出了事才去問他們的意見，從2018年開始我參加過他們非常多的活動，經常跟他們保持聯繫，因為我覺得我很敬佩這些年輕人，為了我們大家，在第一線的火場涉身犯難，結果走了這麼多弟兄，而所有相關部會大家還在踢皮球、原地踏步，他們最希望放到職安法，理由很簡單，規範最完整。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但對於規範到職安法的這個看法，可能勞動部有不一樣的看法，所以他們的第二順位是公務人員保障法要修法，到最後都不行了，才會打算放到消防法，我把順位跟主委您說明一下。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是，我瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我要問的事情是，在這三個機關之間，現在大家都在踢皮球……"],["郝主任委員培芝：我想不是踢皮球，是在建構一個最符合消防人員權益的法制設計。"],["黃委員國昌：我只問一件事情，主委，您站在您的立場，你可能覺得不是踢皮球，我再給您一個建議，去跟這些消防弟兄談一談，從他們的觀點，他們會不會覺得是踢皮球。我再次地強調，今天這件事情，我沒有說一定是保訓會的錯，我也沒有說一定是勞動部的錯，我也沒有說一定是消防署的錯，但是我希望今天站在這邊，他們發出了開會通知，希望行政院召集跨部會的會議，因為他們已經不知道怎麼辦了，他們去找人總、他們去找消防署、他們去找勞動部，大家給的答案，從他們的角度來講就是踢皮球。"],["郝主任委員培芝：從去年10月、12月我們都有召開跨院的協商會議，也由行政院來主導，因為這確實要涉及到……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，他們參加過跨院的協商會議只有哪一場？只有10月12號那一場嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：警政署後來的相關會議、還有本會的相關會議，他們都有參與，在……"],["黃委員國昌：他們11月3號的時候發了通知，希望行政院召開跨院的會議來解決他們的問題，我現在跟主委講的是，已讀不回！現在針對那些修法的順序，時間到了，我只問最後一個最關鍵的問題。"],["郝主任委員培芝：現在消防署已經預計在3月下旬就會推出消防法的修法草案，內部已經有個……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我最後就問一個問題，如果他們希望放到現在有關於勞動部的職安相關保護辦法，這個第一順位的選擇是不可得的話，那第二個部分，他們如果希望透過強化公務人員保障法裡面對於他們的保障，考試院的立場是什麼？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們當然也可以接受。"],["黃委員國昌：可以接受嘛！好，因為我希望把順位談清楚。"],["郝主任委員培芝：但是我們還是認為在目前專業的保護上、職安保護上，放在消防法依然會是我們認為最專業的一個職安保障體系。"],["黃委員國昌：對。我最後只講兩個問題，為什麼我提到公務人員保障法？因為你去看安衛辦法，那個安衛辦法裡面要保護的不是只有警消喔。"],["郝主任委員培芝：對，因為它是全部的公務人員。"],["黃委員國昌：對，是全體的公務人員，現在的安衛辦法以今天的角度來講，我們先把警消放在外面，從提供給全體公務人員必要的安全防護保障，不管是公務人員保障法的授權規定夠不夠明確，還是現在安衛辦法裡面的規範夠不夠周全，主委，你認為現在的安衛辦法即使把警消排除在外面有沒有修正的必要？"],["郝主任委員培芝：當然有修正必要。"],["黃委員國昌：當然有修正的必要！即使把警消排除在外面也有修正的必要，然而……"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們要納入監督、檢查跟課責機制，並且有高風險職務的專家。"],["黃委員國昌：是！然而到現在都還沒有修嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們已經有草案，但是因為現在還正在協調消防人員的部分要怎麼處理。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個部分，你們草案的關鍵是不是公務人員保障法？"],["郝主任委員培芝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：要有更明確的授權規定嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：如果要有罰則的話，如果要納入罰則或課責機制的話……"],["黃委員國昌：但考試院所提出來的立法計畫，有配合安衛法修正的公務人員保障法嗎？"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為我們還在等待消防法立法的程序……"],["黃委員國昌：消防法你又提到警消的部分，剛剛我已經跟你講，問題很具體喔……"],["郝主任委員培芝：因為如果消防人員沒有辦法處理的話，我們後續的安衛辦法沒辦法做切割跟妥適性的安排。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以我最後只問一個問題，這件事情考試院什麼時候可以做決定？"],["郝主任委員培芝：我們就等消防法能夠順利立法完成之後，我們就會啟動後續的修法程序，主要是先針對安衛辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦，有關於警消的部分，如果你們現在的立法計畫是要給消防法、消防署去做的話，那你剛剛也說了回來本來的安衛辦法，它本來就有什麼？本來就有修正的必要。現在的公務人員保障法你如果要讓安衛辦法修得更好，你可能聯動地公務人員保障法要一起修正。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我的看法沒有錯嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：如果是這個樣子的話，這一任的考試委員到今年8月31號就卸任了嘛。"],["郝主任委員培芝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我期待我們一起努力，在這個會期、在他們離開以前把應該給公務人員的，不管是好的保障法、還是好的安衛辦法，我們一起努力把它修正完，好不好？"],["郝主任委員培芝：可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃總召，謝謝3位，秘書長、部長和主委。我想打火弟兄姐妹為公共安全付出，我們都肯定，也希望我們各院共同努力，不管是消防法、保障法還是安衛辦法，我們儘速來促成，給予包括公務人員在內的消防弟兄姊妹更多的保障，謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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沒錯 都有在參與對對對 好主委你講到重點了去年10月去年10月2號的時候為什麼李副主委建德要召開這個會議您知道嗎我當然知道就是希望能夠積極來修改相關的安慰辦法在去年10月2號之前"},{"start":328.285,"end":331.408,"text":"我把序列全部整理出來了您剛所講的2019年的時候那個時候的主委有提辦法來他為什麼提因為那時候發生了桃園進棚的悲劇提了辦法以後"},{"start":353.598,"end":381.226,"text":"提下來不斷的研議我看到最後一次是2021年3月25號的時候人總把他們版本的安慰辦法提供了給保訓會因為保訓會2019年的辦法跟後來你們所提出來的辦法兩份辦法我拜讀了你們整個內容的充實是在2021年人總提供了以後你們在那個條文的基礎上繼續去改"},{"start":382.284,"end":408.935,"text":"但是我要給大家看的是什麼從2021年的3月到2023年的10月整整兩年半的時間我剛剛請教好主委說10月2號為什麼發那個會議通知我當然知道那個會議的主題是安慰辦法10月的會議是9月的大火燒出來的我這樣說應該公平吧"},{"start":411.615,"end":436.896,"text":"對 在這個大的環境來說如果沒有9月的那一場大火或許根本不會有10月的這場會議應該委員是說我們在過去都已經在積極要研擬這個安慰辦法的對 然後結果積極的研擬到今天改了沒有提到考試院也送到這個立法院來但是因為還有一些意見沒辦法整合所以這個就是我剛剛跟大家交換的"},{"start":439.089,"end":456.6,"text":"議見的地方我們永遠要站在最基層的立場去想每一個部會都可以講我們要演繹我們要徵詢意見但他們看到的是什麼六年過去了這個辦法原地踏步"},{"start":457.639,"end":458.86,"text":"您最近跟消除會的朋友坐下來談是什麼時候?"},{"start":478.433,"end":495.904,"text":"我們在10月、11月、12月跟到今年的1月我們都有跟消促會的朋友10月跟12月我們有邀請消促會的朋友還有警察公務員12月的那個會我也可以您報告一下本來消防署是發函是發函22號開會結果聽到他們21號要去賴清德競選總部抗議了以後馬上發會議通知改成20號"},{"start":506.169,"end":531.461,"text":"所有的歷程所有的歷程我全部所有的歷程我全部都掌握了好 您最近一次沒有沒有沒有 您最近一次跟他們開會他們希望修改的是什麼其實他們的態度有一些不一樣最早是希望安慰辦法後來希望回歸治安法他們的態度希望修保障法您先聽我講他們的態度為什麼會變"},{"start":535.325,"end":551.989,"text":"他們一開始的確希望要修安慰辦法你如果是消防員等了6年原地踏步你還願意繼續等下去嗎因為安慰辦法裡面因為他們要求要放入罰則那因為有罰則安慰辦法是法規命令的層級他必須要修保障法"},{"start":553.602,"end":575.442,"text":"這個我都了解啦這個我都了解啊現在我的問題是我們是經過了6年以後是經過了6年以後我們研議了6年以後才知道原來安慰辦法沒有辦法解決問題嗎我現在直接的請教你喔因為我跟這些消防弟兄我不是出了事啊才去問他們的意見"},{"start":577.51,"end":603.809,"text":"從2018年開始我參加過他們非常多的活動經常在跟他們保持聯繫因為我覺得這些年輕人我很敬佩他們為了我們大家在第一線的火場射聲犯難結果走了這麼多弟兄我們所有相關的部會大家還在踢皮球原地踏步他們最希望的是放到執案法"},{"start":605.17,"end":620.158,"text":"理由很簡單規範最完整但對於規範到職安法的這個看法可能從勞動部的觀點他們有不一樣的看法他們第二順位"},{"start":622.304,"end":638.699,"text":"是公務人員保障法要修法到最後不行的不行才會打算放到消防法我把順位跟主委妳說明一下現在我要問的事情就是他們現在在這三個機關之間"},{"start":640.541,"end":668.182,"text":"大家都在踢皮球大家都在踢皮球為什麼不是踢皮球我只問我只問一件事情主委您站在您的立場你可能覺得不是踢皮球我再給您一個建議去跟這些消防弟兄談一談從他們的觀點他們會不會覺得是踢皮球我再次的強調今天這件事情我沒有說一定是保訓會的錯"},{"start":669.483,"end":695.681,"text":"我也沒有說一定是勞動部的錯我也沒有說一定是消防署的錯但是我希望今天站在這邊讓這一些發出了開會通知希望行政院召集跨部會的會議因為他們已經不知道怎麼辦了他們去找人種他們去找消防署他們去找勞動部大家給的答案"},{"start":698.682,"end":720.057,"text":"從他們的角度來講就是踢皮球從去年10月、12月我們都有召開跨院的協商會議也由行政院來主導因為這確實要涉及到他們參加過跨院的協商會議只有哪一場只有10月12號那一場嘛那另外警政署後來的相關會還有本會的相關會他們都有參與"},{"start":721.588,"end":741.274,"text":"他們11月3號的時候發了通知希望行政院召開跨院的會議來解決他們的問題我現在跟主委講的是以讀不回以讀不回現在針對那些修法的順序時間到了我只問最後一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":742.754,"end":748.9,"text":"現在消防組已經預計在3月下旬就會推出消防法的修法草案我最後就問一個問題是如果他們希望放到現在"},{"start":760.239,"end":779.554,"text":"有關於勞動部他們的職安相關的保護辦法這個第一數位的選擇是不可得的話是不可得的話那第二個部分他們如果希望透過來強化公務人員保障法理念對於他們的保障考試院的立場是什麼"},{"start":780.148,"end":794.758,"text":"我們當然也可以接受可以接受嘛因為我希望把順位談清楚但是我們還是認為在目前專業的保護上職安保上放在消防法依然是會我們認為是比較最專業的一個我最後只講兩個問題啊為什麼我提到公務人員保障法"},{"start":799.801,"end":819.326,"text":"因為你去看安慰辦法那個安慰辦法裡面要保護的不是只有警消喔對 因為他是全部的公務人員對 是全體的公務人員全體的公務人員現在的安慰辦法以今天的角度來講我們先把警消放在外面先把警消放在外面從提供給全體公務人員"},{"start":820.486,"end":820.906,"text":"當然有修正必要"},{"start":840.018,"end":866.969,"text":"當然有修正的必要即使把警校排除在外面也有修正的必要然而 然而監督檢查跟克責機制並且有高風險職務的專家是然而到現在都還沒有修嗎我們已經有草案但是因為現在還在協調在第二個部分你們的草案的關鍵是不是公務人員保障法對要有更明確的授權規定嗎如果要有罰則的話"},{"start":869.197,"end":879.287,"text":"但我現在從今天考試院所提出來的立法計畫有配合安慰法修正的公務人員保障法嗎?"},{"start":880.348,"end":898.336,"text":"因為我們還在等待消防法的一個立法的一個程序消防法你又提到警消的部分剛我已經跟你講問題很具體喔我們後續的安會辦法做切割跟視託視訊的好那所以我最後只問一個問題這件事情考試院什麼時候可以做決定"},{"start":899.431,"end":925.188,"text":"我們就等消防法能夠順利立法完成之後我們就會啟動後續的修法的程序我這樣說好了啦主要是先針對安慰辦法就有關於警消的部分你們現在如果的立法計畫是要給消防法、消防署去做的話那你剛也說了回來本來的安慰辦法他本來就有什麼本來就有修正的本來就有修正的必要嘛現在的"},{"start":925.788,"end":949.12,"text":"公務人員保障法你如果要讓安慰辦法修得更好你可能連動的公務人員保障法要一起修正我的看法沒有錯嘛那如果是這個樣子的話這一任的考試委員到今年8月31號就卸任了嘛到今年8月31號卸任了嘛我期待啦我期待我們一起努力在這個會期在他們離開以前"},{"start":952.441,"end":952.581,"text":"謝謝黃總召也謝謝三位"}]}},{"id":"149739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035dfcf055448be262b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:32:22 - 09:43:43","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":681,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:43:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:32:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時32分）主席，麻煩請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：早，主計長。今天你的報告裡面談到各方面，我前幾天在網路上看到總體經濟學的學者也在講這個CPI，他的闡述是說一個國家也不能夠CPI不上漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：像日本失落了30年，它的CPI有時候不漲反跌，反而對經濟不健康，他的講法是說一個國家正常的CPI年增率大概在2個百分點左右算是健康，這樣的講法不知道你認不認同？"],["朱主計長澤民：很多國家都認為如果CPI一直很低或者甚至往下的話，有些人認為是有通貨緊縮的現象……"],["吳委員秉叡：中國現在就是通貨緊縮很嚴重啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：像現在中國大陸就是，香港前些時候也是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那2%的CPI你認不認同？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得認同。"],["吳委員秉叡：他說2%算健康的，他認為低於1%就已經不健康了，更不要講minus。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我同意委員的觀點。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然他也認為不能高，高過3%就通貨膨脹了。"],["朱主計長澤民：事實上我們前（111）年是2.95%，去年是2.49%，今年我們沒有考慮電價的話，預計大概是1.85%；若考慮電價的話，可能接近2%，我們認為並沒有外界所謂的通膨現象。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛你順帶講到電價的問題，你剛剛講的我很認真在聽喔！對於這些大戶跟一般的民生用電，可能將來政府在考量的時候所上漲的頻率是不一樣的？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，上漲的幅度不一樣，對於一般民生用戶或是小店戶的話，據我知道，他們的規劃方向是漲幅比較低。對於大戶，尤其是外銷比重很大的話……"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉一個例子，大家都說臺灣的護國神山是台積電，台積電大概占臺灣用電的8個百分點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，他們一年的用電大概是180億度。"],["吳委員秉叡：180億度？甚至到200億度。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，接近。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在一個問題是台積電這麼賺錢，台積電一年幾乎賺1兆臺幣，盈餘啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，全年。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們的電價是工業用電一樣、民生用電一樣，等於是在補貼的狀況，現在的成本如果照台電的說法，1度大概是4塊左右、4塊多一點，但是大額的工業用電3塊3毛錢，那是調漲之後希望能夠接近成本。你光想整個國家，政府無論是補貼或是增資台電都是用公共的預算，結果這個錢拿來補貼這種獲取非常高利潤的公司，台積電這麼賺錢當然很了不起，它的科技發展也非常了不起，我們都非常稱讚，但是它既然這麼賺錢，電價就不應該再由全民買單，這樣的觀念不知道你贊不贊成？"],["朱主計長澤民：的確像委員所講的，事實上台積電很努力在節電，也很努力在購買那些綠能的……"],["吳委員秉叡：它節電、它綠能，我贊成！對公司也有益，但我的意思是說，像這樣的超高壓用戶可能還要再區分，它的公司是很賺錢的、現在走在產業時代尖端的，跟剛剛講到已經跟中國一樣很大量產能輸出導致在做紅海競爭的，這是另外一個紅海競爭喔！也就是競爭的紅海，舉個例子，中鋼如果不改變它的體質，繼續做大量的鋼材，光中國的鋼產量就把它壓死了，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：中鋼一樣也是用電量很高的公司啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，事實上據我瞭解，他們有區分所謂的情況，就是說愈大的調高……"],["吳委員秉叡：愈大的、愈賺錢的，愈不應該得到補貼。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確是這樣。因為給予它補貼，如果我們又補助台電的電費，那就有點變成是補助外國的消費者，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這樣的觀念，我繼續引申，當然就是要協助，政府如果有多餘的錢要給台電補貼的話，我講的是補貼，不是增資，那更要去照顧到民生、小店舖還有用電量比較小的這些消費者，像住家的用電，它漲價的比例應該要相對因為政府的補貼而被壓低。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我剛才答復林德福委員時也有提到，目前規劃的方向對於小的民生用戶，因為電有時候是民生必需品，以及對於小規模的店舖，他們都有做一個規劃。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，以上是電的問題。","兩年前，幾乎也是4月在這邊跟你請教，那時候對於國中小營養午餐補助費用的拉高，一般是拉到10塊，但是偏鄉拉到14塊，這兩年來你剛剛講CPI有二點九幾的、二點六幾的，加在一起又超過5%的CPI，再加上食物類上漲的比例比平均的CPI還要高一些。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確我們最早是6塊……"],["吳委員秉叡：贊不贊成今年對於中小學小朋友的營養午餐補助金額應該要再略為提高？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，補助金額可能要經由教育部跟農委會，他們比較熟悉單價。事實上我們從6塊調到10塊，偏鄉從10塊變14塊，我們在113年度有編列138億，相較於早期是26億，我們也有一個營養午餐的菜單。另外農委會的代理主委有跟我提過，是不是可以考量再做一些……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，我就是說再考量增加一些補助，由於決策者最後不是你，但是希望把這個意見也帶回去院裡面，因為的確我們把年輕一代小朋友的身體照顧好，對我們國家未來有非常大的幫助……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確。"],["吳委員秉叡：不知道你贊不贊成？是不是應該反映？"],["朱主計長澤民：我非常贊成，陳代理部長有跟我談，他有一個構想，讓學生的營養品質能夠更加提高。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！尤其最近臺灣的食安風暴……"],["朱主計長澤民：他有一個構想……"],["吳委員秉叡：有系統性的問題，從中國進來的東西就是很有問題，從以前就一直講，中國那個國家就最不重視食安了，結果一堆人現在要去抱中國的大腿，又搞了這個東西，讓大家惶惶不安，最近的蘇丹紅事件也是，百試不爽，都是同樣的狀況。","再來我再問一個你報告裡面所點的東西，臺灣這二、三年來的超額儲蓄率都很高，今年你有預估超額儲蓄率甚至會到3.8兆。那超額儲蓄的問題就是相對於你的儲蓄那麼多，你的投資明顯不足，那民間的投資，政府一直在呼籲要提振，也提出方案在提振，但是仍有不足的時候，公共建設在適度範圍內的投資增加，是不是也是應該的？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員報告一下，事實上超額儲蓄有國民所得恆等式的話，超額儲蓄是指儲蓄大於投資，事實上S減I就是等於出口減進口，所以我們只要出口順差越多，我們的超額儲蓄就越多。新加坡也是這樣子，我看瑞士它們也都是這樣子。將來我們的附加價值越多，出口順差越多，超額儲蓄就會越多。不過，這邊的超額儲蓄是S減I，他們現在做的統計、學界所講的統計都只是實質面的投資，事實上有些投資要把金融投資也應該算到裡面去，就是他有實質的投資，就是機具廠房設備不夠，可是那些錢他要去運用，就像我們的外匯存底去買美國的一些所謂公債，同樣是有賺取外匯，所以說我們除了實質投資以外，金融投資也應該努力。新加坡有很高的超額儲蓄，可是它的金融理財也很好，瑞士也是這個樣子。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我們法令的保守程度沒有辦法像它那麼open。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那我因為時間很短，現在最後一個問題跟你強調一下，小弟在立法院從開始到現在已經經過20年了，我們政府公共建設支出的預算早年比例是比較高的，到前幾年變得很低，這幾年又慢慢恢復，因為有特別預算嘛！有前瞻基礎建設嘛！我的意思是說在財政，如果你的財政，假設我們每一年的稅收真的都超過預算數那麼多的話，也要有一部分拿來做公共建設的投資，這一部分是提醒你。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，最近幾年我們連所謂的特別預算跟營業預算包括在裡面的話，我們的投資都有大概接近10%的成長率……"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那這樣我們希望把這個……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會繼續努力，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：院會的時候，如果有意見溝通的時候也可以表達，謝謝你，感謝努力。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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如果有意見溝通的時候也可以表達謝謝你喔 感謝 努力"}]}},{"id":"149738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69034a839ddf4855239e33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:33:55 - 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造成的影響這個是你們台糖公司自己計算的大概這個事件影響的損失程度大概是5128萬大概是你可以計算出來的有形的損失無形的損失是台糖公司長年建立的這個商域因為這樣的一件"},{"start":214.659,"end":222.464,"text":"突如其來或者是不知從哪裡污染到的這樣的一件豬肉對台糖公司所造成的商域影響"},{"start":224.07,"end":227.673,"text":"這個價格是無法計算的我要請問部長跟台糖公司你們要不要求償要不要採取法律行動對於台中市政府來求償部長謝謝那我想這個十安辦前一陣子前幾天也開了會那確認在我們這個相關的飼養屠宰過程應該是都沒有問題所以我想對台糖來說最需要的是"},{"start":252.674,"end":255.436,"text":"回復他的信譽回復國人對台糖對國產豬的一個信心我想這個是最重要的那在這個報告裡面呢最後對於為什麼會有一個單一簡體的這個部分的這樣的情形呢"},{"start":270.288,"end":290.152,"text":"確實是沒有辦法排除但是也沒辦法肯認是怎麼一回事所以這是一個羅生門啊為什麼會只有這一包或者是只有那一塊肉有西部特羅其他的是完全沒有但是就台糖所有的飼養的過程裡頭包括你的原料飼料進口完全不含西部特羅這個是完全確認的但是這樣的一個事件對於台糖所造成的損失我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦"},{"start":299.891,"end":326.677,"text":"即使台糖是國營公司我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦你們的損失我覺得不止這個五千一百多萬欸那這個商域一旦被破壞了要重新回復名譽你要花多少的時間甚至你要花多少的心力、精神、金錢才有辦法所以我建議我是支持台糖公司提告、求償"},{"start":328.444,"end":334.971,"text":"那也讓任何的檢驗單位其實在對於這樣的事件的發布都應該要更審慎"},{"start":337.264,"end":360.666,"text":"董事長您同意我的看法嗎?謝謝委員對台長的鼓勵因為根據食安辦的這個報告那我們的法律顧問目前也正在研擬相關的意見所以我們會根據法律顧問的這個法律意見書再來做一些研議不過我要跟委員報告就是今天的報紙也有報導台中市的食安辦"},{"start":361.867,"end":387.024,"text":"他們 台中市的13處他們的 這個主管有提到他們也會 包括這一次的檢驗方面 有哪一些需要再精進的 我覺得 呃 台中市的 雙方都有意思要對這個單一事件來進行和解就是了啦 是不是這樣 我們會再嚴厲 是好 不要說 主席有意見 不要說和解啦 但雙方要對這件事情來進行和談 好"},{"start":392.823,"end":396.468,"text":"接下來我要請教部長您剛花了很長一段時間大概談到台灣的整個經濟的現況跟我們的不管是產業啦我們需要的這個電力的情況"},{"start":412.286,"end":432.723,"text":"這個RE100其實應該是現在的這些企業非常重視也非常在乎的事情嘛全球大概有350家的企業去響應了RE100台灣大概現在有31家那我要請教就是說到底RE100它要用到的一定是綠電台灣的綠電"},{"start":435.339,"end":464.295,"text":"到底夠不夠現在的31家不代表永遠只有這31家嘛你要踏入國際一定是還要持續使用一定要得到RE版的認證所以台灣的綠電到底夠不夠那這個部分我們其實每一季都滾動的檢討那滾動檢討的原因是在我們的供給面也都會增加那第二個需求面的這些廠商呢他也可能因為他的客戶的要求"},{"start":464.855,"end":473.763,"text":"或者他要可能時程上他有不同所以我們都會問他綠電的需求是怎麼樣的情形那也跟委員報告就是說他們對國際大廠給他們綠電的需求確實都有在增加部長我這邊拿到的資料我跟您確認一下就是說2023年我們的綠電供給量大概是265億度"},{"start":490.519,"end":516.318,"text":"對,高於當年的潛在需求量118億度所以我們看起來綠電的供給量是夠的但是你們實際的供轉量只有17億度其他的是不是大概都是拿去賣掉了那你們現在在去年推動了所謂的小額綠電交易這樣的一個平台從去年10月25日上架開始競標"},{"start":517.739,"end":541.683,"text":"我想要更進一步瞭解你們到底競標的成效是什麼如果今天來不及回答的話是不是也請經濟部給本席資料那我跟委員說明那個17億度其實是指它原來跟短購賣給台電那後來跟台電分手了17億度是指這一個部分那事實上非常多的暗廠它其實本來就直接賣給民間了民間的電廠它就直接賣掉了賣給民間了"},{"start":544.804,"end":558.196,"text":"但是目前為止你們的綠電供應能量還是夠的,是不是?總量是,剛才委員講的是多,非常多的,是。好,那這個相關的部分是不是,細部的資料是不是能夠請經濟部再提供給本席,好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69035d631a58fc6837bc96e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a663cfaa1421ca07f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:28:11 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09:39:25","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":674,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:39:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:28:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":66,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時28分）謝謝主席。我們有請徐佳青委員長。"],["主席：請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：徐委員，恭喜。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝，委員長您好。有一個事情要先來跟您確認一下，去年8月賴副總他有代表蔡英文總統出訪友邦巴拉圭致敬團，中間他們有過境了紐約跟舊金山，請問一下，徐委員長您當時是不是正式的團員？"],["徐委員長佳青：我不是。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不是。我想要好奇請問一下，我們看一下那個公文的部分，好不好？這個公文是當時大概在8月13號、14號、15號、16號這幾天的行程，不好意思，我的簡報稍微糊一點，您可以看，當時您在行程上面，8月13號飛往巴拉圭，8月14號、15號也停留在巴拉圭，8月16號到了舊金山，晚上有出席僑宴，前面這邊寫到的是您去美國舊金山參加一個活動，紐約參加一個活動，然後順訪舊金山，還有一些其他的僑社。請問一下，8月13號到8月16號這四天是跟著賴副總統他們的訪團一起的嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，這一份行程表事實上是舊的，後來我們作廢了。"],["徐委員巧芯：後來作廢？所以後來有去嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：都沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：都沒有去了？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：都沒有去了。"],["徐委員長佳青：都沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。都沒有去，因為我們就是有接到這個爆料，我們看一下這個訊息，這應該是來自於外交部所謂吹哨者來函的訊息，裡面有一些情緒性的文字，您就先把它略過，但總之它裡面談到的是當時你們在安排您剛剛所稱這個舊的行程表的時候，似乎外交部安排訪團的成員有一些不滿意的地方，因為他們覺得您不是這個訪團的成員，但是為什麼要參加？這是第一個部分，但您後來已經談到你們也取消這樣子的行程了，可是我們從上面看到的是曾經存在過，或許是因為你們曾經規劃了8月13號到8月16號的行程，但您並不是訪團的成員，所以使得外交部的人員在安排上面、在他們情緒上面覺得是不舒服的，但後來你們取消了，我們可以瞭解。但我們今天想要詢問一個問題，我請教了當時的一些僑胞，他們就質疑說在訪團正式公布的前夕，您曾經向海外的一些重要僑領透露過賴副總統出訪的國家跟具體日期，我想要請問，有沒有這樣的事情？"],["徐委員長佳青：其實沒有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那怎麼會傳出來是這樣子？"],["徐委員長佳青：其實在僑界，我們僑胞都是非常熱心，所以有些時候，由於我們在準備相關的一些僑宴或過境的過程當中，總是會麻煩到一些僑胞，這些僑胞免不了不知道這些訊息是機密型的，所以會流出去。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK！所以過程當中我們有請僑胞……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們事後知道的，對！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以過程是我們要請僑胞來做一些訪團安排的協助，但他們沒有理解到這是一個機敏性的事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以向外面透露了，然後有走漏風聲……"],["徐委員長佳青：我認為他們沒有向外面透露，可能是有人在打聽的時候，他們並不知道這些訊息是不能講的。"],["徐委員巧芯：但總之後來這個賴副總統的訪團，最後的結果是有提前洩漏一些他們可能會去的資訊，讓包含媒體、包含美方他們都理解到這個情況。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個跟徐委員報告一下，事實上在整體的安排上我們僑委會都沒有涉入，因為在這一次8月的訪團，基本上從頭到尾都是以外交部安排為主軸，僑委會只有協助過境的兩場僑宴的工作。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK！瞭解。外交部的公務人員的對話裡面，提到一點我覺得比較令人質疑的是，上面就寫：「上次大老闆跟這次二老闆」，我想他指涉的是總統跟副總統，然後他對您的稱呼不是這麼好聽，請您見諒，但他就說您在幾個月前就到處向僑胞放話，時間地點都報，他們就很生氣，認為您有洩漏國家機密，甚至還提到了這一次美處蕭代表超級震怒，您有聽說嗎？然後說這麼機密的出訪資料放在僑務行程上，還直接發公文來，應該是指後來你們作廢的這一份文件，外交部的公務人員就很生氣，我想瞭解您的說法。"],["徐委員長佳青：我跟委員報告一下，這件事情我在第一時間其實也跟當時的駐美代表報告過，說為什麼發生這樣的狀況，事實上我們沒有人去洩漏任何東西，但是我知道我們承辦同仁在安排各種首長過境或者是出訪的過程當中，由於要與對方這個國家進行安排，所以這些相關的資料會提前匯給外交部，所以這都是外交部自己拿到的資料，並不是僑團拿到的資料，這是第一點。","第二個，這些資料我們也從來沒有對外過，這個東西只是要請駐美的代表處去協助，原來我作為首長，我也不希望要有人過境的時候去接機或送機等等，但是外交部很堅持說基於國家的尊嚴，我們所有的部長級通通要比照辦理，因此我們都要固定的提供，我本來就有一些安排的行程在走了，跟原來總統的出訪計畫或者是副總統的出訪計畫剛好時間有一些overlap，所以像這個事情就是一個意外。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我想當時狀況可能是這樣，您在7月21號的時候發了這份後來作廢的公文，裡面有提到包含巴拉圭、僑宴等等的資訊，因為我看到正本是給外交部，副本有給駐美代表處以及很多的辦事處，我想可能他們收到了之後非常的驚訝，覺得這樣子是不是大家都能夠推測賴副總統這個訪團的行程？"],["徐委員長佳青：所以經過這件事情以後，我就責令我們同仁，未來不要再這樣子做了，因為那是第一次他們這樣子，我也認為這個有把國家機密複雜化的嫌疑，所以這件事情除了跟代表處及同仁都有說明以外，後面我們再也沒有發生過類似的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那就請多注意，好嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：接下來想要跟您請教的是關於華語文學習中心相關的一些議題。委員長，您學中文的時候，我們應該都是學注音嘛！我想請問一下，我們最近力推的臺灣華語文學習中心，他們在教我們的僑胞是教拼音還是注音？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們是兩者都合併在一起。"],["徐委員巧芯：兩者都合併，那我們有掌握哪一個多、哪一個少嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：目前我們自己所編的教材是包容性的教材、雙語教材，最早開始是Mandarin and English，就是華語跟英語的版本，同時有拼音跟注音符號並列，在華語文學習中心全部都是使用我們的教材。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們瞭解的是華語文學習中心裡面有一部分是學習漢語拼音，當然它主攻的客群，因為有一部分是把華語當成是第二語言的人，他們可能想要學……"],["徐委員長佳青：應該說絕大部分都是。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是因為現在有很多的科技產業，他是我們臺灣的年輕人，我舉例，比如到美國去工作，他們家人會帶他們的小朋友一起到美國，所以我們希望這些小孩子是可以學習注音的，因為他們隨時都會回到臺灣來接軌。這次的事情是有僑胞跟我們反映，他們在美國看到了這些開課的資訊覺得很棒，他們都想要讓小朋友在美國的時候也可以學中文，可是他在加州，他們說有注音跟拼音班，拼音班比較容易報名成功，可是注音班基本上都是額滿的情況，不曉得委員長對這部分有沒有瞭解？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們華語文學習中心針對的對象基本上是成人18歲以上，所以它並不是給那種一般的學童、孩子來上課的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們小朋友的部分呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：另外這個就是有一千多個，我剛剛講的，我們在過去這50年來在全球有成立一千多個僑校，這些橋校絕大多數、九成五以上都是屬於週末假日補充型，上課3小時、4小時這樣子的方式，這些都還是例行的在做，而且這是兩個完全不同的系統……"],["徐委員巧芯：那他們報名的狀況都滿編嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們從來沒有遇到過……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我實際上很確認是哪一些有小朋友……"],["徐委員長佳青：可不可以請委員提供我們資料……"],["徐委員巧芯：會後我再跟你們說……"],["徐委員長佳青：如果有這種情況，我們會非常驚喜。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["徐委員長佳青：報告委員，因為在疫情前和疫情後產生了一些變化，美國當時有封鎖等等的情況，所以我們很多僑校在疫情期間都變成只有線上班，因此就流失了不少學童。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後，我想要請問，我們未來有沒有規劃線上班的開課模式？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們現在一直都是混用的，包括華語文學習中心和一般僑校，如果老師在課程的開設上面覺得學生需要進階的時候、需要補充的時候，我們都允許他提供線上教學。"],["徐委員巧芯：我建議可以做一些更完整的線上教學，去補充一些小朋友注音班報不到的時候……"],["徐委員長佳青：有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：讓他可以使用，不是因為老師後來說要辦，而是在他入學的時候就可以拿到相關的教材。會後我會再跟委員說明大概是在哪一個區域有發生這樣的狀況，主要是發現我們僑胞的小朋友很難去報名到注音相關的課程。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後，在拼音和注音的比重上面，因為我們中華民國主要都是以注音來教學，既然我們投入了這麼多的預算，我們還是希望在注音的部分可以多加推廣，儘管他們要學習的是第二種語言，但我們還是希望能夠把我們中華民國的文化推廣出去。"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員說明，我們在18歲以下學童的部分，基本上，教材都是用注音，剛剛講的華語文學習中心是給成人的，因為它是第二外語，我們採用混合式的模式。"],["徐委員巧芯：建議還是要以我們的說法為主，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，謝謝。"],["主席：請羅委員美玲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6890937500000001,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.852218750000002,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.03909375,"end":83.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.22471875000001,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.71409375,"end":83.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.83221875000001,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.30409375,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.38409375,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.56096875,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.40471875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":93.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.07096875000002,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.71596875,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.78346875,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.03659375,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.97659375,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.28846875000002,"end":195.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.11846875,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.21471875,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.07096875000002,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.72784375,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.43159375000002,"end":223.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.59096875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.03221875000003,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.38659375,"end":236.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.23034375,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.83346875,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.18096875,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.83909375000002,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.95846875,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.51721875000004,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.27409375,"end":382.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.11471875,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.03909375,"end":427.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.11409375000005,"end":413.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.84721875,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.46221875000003,"end":446.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.82909375,"end":428.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.99909375000004,"end":449.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.07471875000005,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.29409375,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.75971875000005,"end":467.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.53596875000005,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.75909375000003,"end":471.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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因為我 我想當時的狀況可能是這樣就是您在7月21號的時候發了這份後來作廢的公文裡面有提到包含巴拉圭 然後喬燕等等的這個資訊那因為我看到正本是給外交部副本有給了駐美代表處以及很多的這個辦事處那我想可能他們收到了之後非常的驚訝覺得這樣子是不是大家都能夠推測那賴副總統的這個訪團的行程"},{"start":408.217,"end":410.199,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":429.982,"end":451.69,"text":"關於華語文學習中心相關的一些議題委員長您學中文的時候我們應該都是學助音我想請問一下我們最近力推的這個台灣華語文學習中心他們在教我們的僑報是教拼音還是助音我們是兩者都合併在一起兩者都合併那我們有掌握哪一個多哪一個少嗎"},{"start":452.37,"end":471.038,"text":"目前我們自己所編的教材呢我們是包容性的教材雙語教材那最早是開始是Mandarin and English就是華語跟英語的這個版本那同時有拼音跟注音符號並列那麼全部都是使用我們的教材在華語文學習中心"},{"start":471.698,"end":492.396,"text":"那因為呢華語文學習中心我們了解的是說已經有一部分是學習漢語拼音那當然他主攻的客群因為有一部分是把華語當成是第二語言的人那他們可能想要學的應該說絕大部分都是但是有很多的像因為現在有很多的科技產業他是我們台灣的年輕人我舉例到美國"},{"start":493.097,"end":493.597,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":519.839,"end":540.706,"text":"拼音班比較容易報名成功可是助音班基本上都是額滿的情況不曉得委員長對這部分有沒有了解跟委員報告我們花語文學習中心針對的對象基本上是成人18歲以上所以他並不是給那種一般的學童孩子來上課的那我們小朋友的部分是要去哪"},{"start":541.326,"end":541.446,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":564.284,"end":564.604,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":591.963,"end":595.067,"text":"最後我想要問說我們未來有沒有規劃做線上班這樣子的一個開課模式我們現在一直都混用的就是說包括我們這個華語文學習中心跟一般的橋校如果他老師在這個課程的開設上面他們覺得學生需要進階的時候需要補充的時候我們都允許他有提供線上的教學"},{"start":612.927,"end":636.239,"text":"我建議可以做一些更完整的線上教學去補充一些我們的小朋友他注音不到的時候那他可以使用的不是老師後來說要辦而是說他入學的時候他可以拿到相關的教材那會後我會再跟這個委員長說明說大概是在哪一個區域有發生這樣的狀況那主要就是我們僑胞的小朋友那發現說他們很難去報名到注音相關的課程"},{"start":637.159,"end":637.539,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":657.329,"end":657.589,"text":"主持人徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"149736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903178d8ca05e5ea3a4b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a6ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:21:06 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欸 前一陣子齁 一斤芭樂 欸 69 79 這樣子勒 那個芭樂啊 是因為去年喔 下半年那個雨季的原因 下雨的一個雨季 颱風的原因到 那個芭樂是有 是有那個 我看了真的嚇了一跳啊 芭樂香蕉跟那個 香蕉也是啊 鳳梨啦都有都有高 你知道齁"},{"start":520.761,"end":524.095,"text":"所以說很多外食族他們要吃個水果都很困難講實在話"},{"start":525.953,"end":550.77,"text":"因為另外一個芭樂去年也比較低阿過去你像香蕉有多20塊對不對芭樂也差不多20塊阿你現在飆到將近70塊對不對那些當然他們買不起痛苦指數就一直在飆阿那個跟委員報告一下目前是水果的價格是比去年高可是蔬菜現在都已經跌幅很大蔬菜蔬菜跌幅很大"},{"start":551.75,"end":565.657,"text":"所以說多吃蔬菜少吃水果是不是沒有這個意思啦我這是要平衡的啦照你的意思就是說蔬菜多吃水果少吃嘛對不對其實齁主計長要爭議來考量那個"},{"start":569.568,"end":584.681,"text":"主計長經濟學人智庫EIU的報告指出紅海危機已經對亞洲出口的貿易造成有重大的衝擊內容並下修今年的亞洲經濟增長率預估至少0.2%"},{"start":587.943,"end":609.582,"text":"請問主計長就您的了解經濟學能報告對鴻海危機的預估你認為台灣是不是能夠置身事外跟那個委員報告一下那個不同的機構有不同的估計但是有些機構他們認為是說今年的成長率會比他們上一次預估的是增加了0.2個百分點不同的機構有不同的估計"},{"start":610.162,"end":622.844,"text":"就是一估至少整個經濟成長至少會影響到0.2%的指數嗎?是不是?是增加是增加增加那你認為"},{"start":625.641,"end":643.227,"text":"這個用什麼方法能夠降低損失進而縮小對臺灣GDP的衝擊有沒有辦法那個紅海危機的話就是說我們的船隻通過當然一方面應該有保險嘛對不對另外一個方面我們也應該分"},{"start":644.787,"end":645.367,"text":"謝謝 下一位歡迎吳秉瑞委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69034f19b90e31189aaa33e530803e447454f8ba9b0039caa7a6c6a74b42f456a0955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:22:18 - 09:33:53","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":695,"end_time":"2024-03-13T09:33:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T09:22:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":62,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時22分）有請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：好，本席要針對再生能源除了建置之外的後續維運來做討論，主題是在極端氣候下建立國家綠能穩定供應的機制，零排能源漸成主力，綠電也成為關鍵能源，在你的簡報當中也提到，去年在COP28最大的共識就是增加再生能源，那回顧國家的綠能目標，距離達到2025年20%的比例雖然有高難度的挑戰，但是我相信我們努力還是會有成果，試想，俄烏戰爭造成國際能源的飆漲，以阿戰爭後續可能形成石油供應的風險，若沒有綠能的規劃，能源的供應勢必困難。","好，我國再生能源的裝置容量確實是有大幅的成長，在111年10月底，不管是太陽光電、風力發電、水力發電、地熱發電，都有顯著成長，據本席所知，目前我們再生能源對發電的占比也達到9%了。","好，臺灣確實擁有好的綠能地理條件，我們在臺灣海峽有最佳的風場；我們位在太平洋西岸，黑潮的流量及流速都很好；我們位在亞熱帶，所以日照充足；我們臺灣也在環太平洋的火環內，所以地熱豐富。我國確實擁有各型綠能的最佳場域，但是好的地理條件也有對應的地理問題，綠能發展與氣候條件是正相關，注意！我這邊提的是氣候條件，這都跟我後續的主張會有關係，我們直觀來看，我國各型的綠能均面對不同的問題，我們說在臺灣海峽有好的風場，但是夏季多颱風，在風機大型化下，我們狹小的空域要如何兼顧民航、軍機飛安與能源安全？其次是太陽能光電，雖然我們位在亞熱帶，但是地狹人稠，要如何合理利用有限的國土資源？第三，我們位在環太平洋的這個火環帶當中，既然是在地熱發達的火環帶當中，那一定是火山很發達的地段，所以就多地震、地質破碎，也導致我們地下熱水源的涵養困難。第四，雖然我們有海洋流這樣的優良條件，但是有黑潮，那就一定有海溝的地形，水下工程的難度就會遽增了。","好，關於電力供應的風險管理，綜觀過去經濟部只要管一家公司就好了，也就是台電，只要管台電，它就可以掌握全國的電力，而先前又是大電廠的架構，火力、核能、水力等電廠均由台電現場人員即時掌握狀態，甚至可以用緊急備用料件來替代。好，在電業自由化之後，我們民間綠能電廠的地位等同台電，民間電廠為了講求最佳化，它都是委託建置，甚至委託營運，部長，您覺得它會像台電一樣有緊急的現場人員去掌握狀況，會有緊急的備用料件來支援現場因為地理或大氣環境所衍生的電力設備故障嗎？好，在去年有一則這樣的新聞，就是離岸一期故障頻繁，離岸一期的故障達三分之一，但是說到這一點，本席就要替台電同仁抱不平。台電的再生能源處一共才200人，它管什麼？就是再生能源而已，所以地熱、風力發電、太陽能全部它都管，就只有200位，甚至據本席瞭解，連一個主任都要去爬電桿，你看人員多麼吃緊。好，我要請部長這邊去瞭解，多大面積的風場有多少種發電設備要養護，光是我出海一趟，搭船來回所需的時間就造成養護量能的巨大限制，一艘工作船出海只能養護一座風塔，民營風場是占大多數，我現在講的是台電自己的風場哦！民營風場，你現在所標出去的風場，大部分都是國外的系統商來喔！他們是占大多數，其修復工作量必然更大於台電的維修養護需求。","本席認為綠能要永續，在你的簡報當中你只有講到我怎麼樣的發電滿足供應量，但是你沒有永續，綠能沒有循環，綠能沒有合理使用，你就不可能有這樣的穩定，像你現在所呈現的數字。所以本席認為綠能政策要科學化的監理，關於科學管理分散式電業的必要性，什麼叫做科學管理？我針對幾項、幾點，第一個，要求民營電廠具備復原維修量能，不能僅靠其發電才有收入的邏輯，這是現況，政府應強化監理民間業者的設備妥善率。連我們私人的汽車上路，交通部都要求我們都要驗車了，更何況重大的能源設施，政府豈能置身事外！","第二個，綠能場域通過環評之後的環境生態不能放任業者自行管理，經濟部應該主動承擔建置後的環境資料收集責任及系統化管理，我們都會要求這些綠電的業者定期通報（半年一次）環境部的簡易環境影響資訊，本席要求針對這些業者同步提報給經濟部，你們才好去做後續的收集，甚至系統化的分析與管理，所以我在這裡請你們研議一定比例綠電場域是以免環評辦理，有環評的他一定會送環境部，免環評的是沒有的，免環評的綠電廠應該納入政府的環境衝擊監控。","針對這個生態是如此，那針對氣候呢？我就以金管會為例，金管會自112（去）年起，要求本國銀行於每年6月底前辦理前一年度氣候風險相關財務揭露，而綠電非常大比例是以融資……我相信部長你比我更清楚，與其說我們支持系統商，不如說是支持風電系統商的財務規劃，我想這句話才是重點。所以它的財務規劃，金管會都會要求它氣候風險的財務規劃要揭露，經濟部本身對於氣候相關的管理，是不是也應該要比照金管會的要求呢？綠電也好，太陽能也好，五級、三級的地震、五級、七級颱風所造成氣候所影響這個風場，你要有多少的量能、人力？要有多少的預備配料？這都要整備啊！那你怎麼知道要整備多少配料？你怎麼知道要多少人力？當然靠的就是科學管理長期的追蹤啊！3年、5年後的分析，要求電廠、民營電廠也要做這樣的整備啊！否則你的綠電到時候就變成廢鐵了，後續在這當中才能夠一直保持你現在所跟大家報告的這樣的量能。","綠能政策在科學化的監理當中，反觀能源署，我再講一次，能源署是直接規劃、管理綠能產業，卻沒有針對綠能氣候風險有生態風險的管理、氣候風險的管理，在電業自由化下與國家電力穩定供應進行監控，能源署不能只有管發多少電，更重要的是穩定發電的供給與調控，這個是本席的重點。因為以前的電力調控只要由台電來扮演管理者就好，但是綠能發電的電業自由化之後，能源署當然得承擔起來。綠能場域的微氣象資料屬於國家關鍵戰略資訊，這句話很重要，綠能場域的微氣候資料是屬於國家關鍵戰略資訊，只有持續建立綠能場域的資料蒐集，才能檢討、修正我們的綠能政策，進行科學化數據來支持國家綠能永續發展。","總結：面對國際碳排淨零趨勢，產業為製造出口導向的臺灣，綠能是不可不為的方向，這也是要替我們民進黨、執政黨來講，為什麼要強力發展綠能發電，本席也深以為榮，但是我覺得我們還是要很審慎的對後續在穩定供電跟調控上，我們也有這樣的責任，所以經濟部面臨新型態的綠能，明顯未完善分散式電業的科學管理機制。","我有三項要求，第一個，請台電於1個月內提供其經營綠電場域的再生能源養護、修復人力、材料量能及環境監管資料規劃，並請經濟部……這個一定要部長的支持，請經濟部額外補助台電新增人力所需經費，以此作為規範民營電廠養護設備的依據；第二個，總而言之，就是台電做示範，它目前的電廠怎麼樣的營運狀況，請他們提出一個規劃案，進而經濟部能源署建立民營電廠防護與復原規範，以降低人為及氣候因素造成國家電力供應危機。也請經濟部能源署，也請台電建立各型綠能氣象風險及環境資訊監管機制，也以此依據，能源署建立起中央級綠能環境管理機制，以利要求民營電廠參照台電的永續經營跟穩定供電。部長，你怎麼看呢？"],["王部長美花：非常謝謝委員有系統的呈現這幾個問題，委員這三個意見我們會按照委員的指示來辦理。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝。因為這個是目前能源署沒有注意到的，謝謝部長。"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：謝謝。接下來我們請邱議瑩委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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委員好本期針對再生人員的後續除了建制之後後續的維運來做討論極端氣候下建立國家綠能穩定供應的機制那在靈牌的能源建成主力綠電也成為關鍵能源在你的簡報當中也提到去年在COP28"},{"start":30.127,"end":30.307,"text":"主席"},{"start":47.472,"end":65.662,"text":"阿戰爭後續可能形成的石油供應若沒有綠能的規劃能源的供應勢必困難好我國再生能源的裝置能量去確實是有大幅的成長在111年10月底不管是在太陽能光電風力到水力地了"},{"start":66.775,"end":89.717,"text":"目前本席所知道的我們再生能源也達發電佔比的9%了好那台灣確實擁有好的綠能的地理條件我們有最佳的風潮在這個台灣海峽我們有在太平洋西岸這個黑潮流量的流速都很好以及我們在亞熱帶當中的日照充足以及在環太平洋的火環"},{"start":90.478,"end":90.858,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":108.123,"end":113.166,"text":"所以這跟我後續的主張會有關係直觀來看我國各型的綠能軍面對不同的問題我們說有在台灣有好的這個風場但是呢夏季多颱風風機大型化下我們狹狹的空域如何兼顧民航軍機飛安與能源安全太陽能光電雖然我們在亞熱帶但是地狹人稠如何合理利用的有限國土資源我們雖然在這個"},{"start":138.098,"end":154.403,"text":"這個火黃�帶當中既然是地熱發達火黃帶當中那一定是火山一定是這個很發達的一個地段所以它一定是多地震、地質破碎也導致我地下熱的水源涵養就困難雖然我們有這個海洋流的一個這樣的地主這樣的優良條件但是有黑潮那它一定是有海溝的地形水下工程難度就會劇增了"},{"start":167.347,"end":191.436,"text":"好,我電力發電的風險管理好,縱觀過去經濟部只要管一家公司就好叫做台電那只要管這家台電呢他就可以掌握全國的電力而先前又是大電廠的架構火力、核能、水力等電廠均由台電現場人員即使掌握狀態甚至可以緊急備用料件來替代好"},{"start":193.356,"end":218.014,"text":"對業自由化之後我們民間的綠燃電廠的地位等同台電好那你覺得民間電廠為了講求最佳化他都是委託建設甚至委託營運您覺得部長他會像台電一樣有緊急的現場人員去掌握狀況會有緊急的備用料件來支援現場的這個所"},{"start":219.735,"end":229.877,"text":"因為地理或大氣環境所衍生的電力設備故障嗎?好在去年有這樣的新聞李岸一期這個故障頻繁"},{"start":231.588,"end":240.23,"text":"這個故障還打3分之1但說到這一點我這個本席就要替臺電同仁報不平在臺電的再生人員柱一共才200人他管什麼再生人員而已所以地熱、風力發電、太陽能這個全部他都管就200位甚至本席了解連一個主任都要去爬電桿"},{"start":259.893,"end":278.62,"text":"你看能源多麼吃緊。好,這麼所以也要請部長這邊瞭解多大面積的風產有多少種的發電設備要養護光是我出海一趟搭船來回所需的時間造成養護量能的巨大限制一艘工作船出海啊只能養護一座風塔"},{"start":280.521,"end":283.603,"text":"民營風場是佔大多數,其修復工作量必然更大於台電的維護養護需求。"},{"start":299.955,"end":305.66,"text":"本席認為綠能要永續在你的簡報當中你就講到說我怎麼樣的發電供應量來足好但是但你沒有永續綠能沒有循環綠能沒有合理使用你就不可能有這樣的穩定像你現在所呈現的數字了所以呢本席認為綠能政策要科學化的建立"},{"start":323.456,"end":347.422,"text":"科學管理分散式的電業的必要性什麼叫做科學管理?我針對幾項幾點。第一個,要求民營電廠具備互援修復的量能不能僅靠它發電才有收入的邏輯這是現況政府因強化監理民間業者的設備妥善率連我們私人的汽車"},{"start":348.862,"end":370.048,"text":"資源的棄爭我們交通部都要求我們都要驗車了更何況重大的人員設施政府請人事身事外第二個綠能場域通過環評之後的環境生態不能放任業者自行管理經濟部應該主動的承擔建設後面的環境資料收集責任及系統化的管理"},{"start":370.968,"end":392.537,"text":"我們都會要求業者這些綠電的業者他們會通報定期通報半年一次通報環境部的檢疫環境影響資訊本期要求針對這些業者同步提報給經濟部你們才好去做後續的收集甚至系統化的分析跟管理"},{"start":393.797,"end":403.541,"text":"而且呢我這還不包括所以我在這邊請你們研議一定要一定比例的綠電場域是以免環評的有環評的他一定會送環境部免環評的是沒有的免環評的這個綠電場應該納入政府的環境衝擊的監控好針對這個生態是如此那針對氣候呢"},{"start":418.294,"end":422.257,"text":"我就舉經管會。經管會自112年起去年還要求本國銀行每年6月底前辦理前一年度的氣候風險的相關財務揭露而綠電非常大比例是以農資我相信這個部長你比我更清楚與其說我們支持系統商不如是支持這個風電系統商的財務規劃我想這句話才是重點"},{"start":445.134,"end":448.955,"text":"所以他的財務規劃金管會都要求說你氣候風險的財務規劃要揭露那你本身你的經濟部你對於氣候相關的管理是不是也應該要比照金管會的要求呢我這個綠電也好太陽能也好我的五級三級的地震我五級七級的颱風"},{"start":467.742,"end":488.648,"text":"所在造成氣候所影響的這個風場你要有多少的量能力 我有多少的預備配料都要準備啊那你怎麼知道要準備多少配料 你怎麼知道多少能力當然靠的就是科學管理長期的追蹤啊 3年5年後的分析要求電廠民營電廠也要做這樣的準備啊 否則你的綠電到時候就變成廢鐵了"},{"start":494.639,"end":511.892,"text":"好就是後續這當中只能夠一直能夠保持你現在所跟大家報告的這樣的量能啊好綠能政策在科學化的建立當中反觀我再講一次人原屬直接是規劃管理綠能的產業並卻沒有針對綠能氣候風險有生態風險的管理氣候風險的管理在電業自由化後與國家電力穩定供應進行監控人原屬不能只有管發多少電"},{"start":524.782,"end":530.325,"text":"更重要的是穩定發電的供給與調控這個是本席的重點因為以前這個電力調控只要由台電來扮演管理者就好但是綠能發電的電業自由化之後能源署當然得承擔起綠能場域的微氣象資料屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊這句話很重要"},{"start":550.155,"end":564.833,"text":"為綠能場域的為氣候的資料是屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊只有持續的建立綠能場域的資料收集才能檢討修正我的綠能政策進行科學化的數據來支持國家綠能永續的發展"},{"start":567.316,"end":573.319,"text":"總結面對國際碳排的近鄰趨勢產業為製造出口導向的臺灣綠能是不可不為的方向這也是要替我們民進黨執政黨來講為什麼強力的發展這個綠能發電本身也深以為榮但是我覺得我們還是要很審慎的對後續在穩定供電跟調控上"},{"start":592.529,"end":594.13,"text":"提供其經營綠電場域的再生能源養護、修復能力"},{"start":612.842,"end":618.125,"text":"材料量能及環境監管的資料規劃．並請經濟部．額外補助台電新增能力的所需經費．以作為規範民營電廠養父設備的依據．"},{"start":629.15,"end":633.414,"text":"第二,臺電總而言之就是臺電做示範他目前的電廠怎麼的營運狀況請他們提出一個規劃案來請進而我經濟部能源能源署建立民營電廠防護及復原的規範"},{"start":644.805,"end":653.172,"text":"以降低人為及氣候造成國家電力供應的危機：也請經濟部能源署：我也請臺電建立各型綠能氣象風險與環境資訊監管的機制：也以此依據你能源署建立起國中央級的綠能環境管理的機制：以利要求民營電廠參照臺電的永續經營跟穩定供電部長你怎麼看呢"},{"start":674.198,"end":675.258,"text":"邱益穎委員請作詢答"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}