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大學犯罪防治學系的賴詠蓮教授歡迎您"},{"start":1929.827,"end":1953.607,"text":"第5位是來自陽明交通大學科技法律學院我們的林志傑教授歡迎您第6位是開南大學法律學院暨法律學系的鄭善映教授歡迎您第7位是中央大學法律學系的吳耀宗教授歡迎您"},{"start":1957.011,"end":1980.786,"text":"再來第8位是續聯資安公司的郭崇信總經理歡迎您第9位再來是法務部司法官學院我們的蔡碧玉前院長歡迎您再來是簽信法律事務所的李怡光律師歡迎您"},{"start":1983.395,"end":2008.501,"text":"再來是來自於與和聯合法律事務所的蔡學怡律師歡迎您剛剛到場是我們時代法律事務所的張君倫律師歡迎您目前上有邀請的學者專家代表尚未到的我們到了後會來補充介紹接下來依次來介紹"},{"start":2010.649,"end":2039.967,"text":"委員目前就是我到場了那接下來陸續委員到場之後我們再安排有委員穿插來發言接下來介紹列席的政府機關代表目前我就依照我們的名單上的順序首先介紹是法務部常務次長黃謀信次長歡迎您再來是司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信齊副廳長那再來介紹我們行政院打擊詐欺辦公室李憲明主任歡迎您"},{"start":2041.345,"end":2066.313,"text":"另外來自經濟部商業發展署 劉雅娟副署長 歡迎您來自數位發展部數位產業署 呂振華署長 歡迎您來自金融監督管理委員會銀行局侯立揚主任秘書 歡迎您以及證券期貨局上光祺主任秘書"},{"start":2068.697,"end":2085.347,"text":"另外介紹國家通訊傳播委員會基礎設施處處長陳春木處長歡迎您以及法律事務處的陳昭盧科長歡迎您以及平台事業管理處的廖敏全科長歡迎您"},{"start":2086.448,"end":2113.477,"text":"以及北區監理處的王志遠檢任濟政謝謝接下來我們介紹個人資料保護委員會籌備處李仕德李主任歡迎您以及內政部警政署刑事警察局黃仁聰副局長歡迎您那內政部移民署移民事務組的副組長曹固齡副組長歡迎您"},{"start":2116.806,"end":2117.226,"text":"請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱"},{"start":2144.956,"end":2169.146,"text":"討論提綱一新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版執行至今對打詐是否具有成效目前議政擬定打詐專法草案應在納入哪些方向二盤點各部會現行打詐相關法令與實務運作上有何礙處如以證券投資信託及顧問法為例即應社群平台無主動協助責任致使警政機關"},{"start":2170.026,"end":2170.306,"text":"好那今天"},{"start":2200.049,"end":2210.76,"text":"本院司法法制委員會特別召開此公聽會目的就是回應社會各界國人對於詐欺犯行的嚴重關切"},{"start":2212.236,"end":2237.378,"text":"也造成我們臺灣社會相當大的集體不安因此特別邀集各界的學者專家代表希望能夠提供意見供目前行政院正在推動的打詐專法的研擬作為參考未來本委員會也會在審理相關法案的時候將各位學者專家業界代表的意見納入審查慎著"},{"start":2239.582,"end":2239.642,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2256.916,"end":2273.583,"text":"在邀請各位發言之前首先請學者專家先發言發言順序依照先到先後順序目前看起來在第5位發言完畢應該在10點前如果需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況著與調整"},{"start":2274.904,"end":2302.612,"text":"本會議委員：按照登記先後順序發言：如果陸續到場本席會安排請委員發言：最後再請政府機關代表發言：針對學者專家以及委員的意見加以回應與會者請至發言臺發言：在主席右手邊的為學者專家列席機關代表的發言臺我左手邊的就為委員的發言臺由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界意見"},{"start":2303.332,"end":2303.572,"text":"許華福教授"},{"start":2342.949,"end":2363.646,"text":"主席還有我們與會的政府代表還有民間代表還有很多專家學者大家早我很榮幸可以來參加這個詐欺犯罪的一個立法跟各部會打詐的一個盤點的公聽會我想我是國立中正大學犯罪防制學系許華福許教授"},{"start":2364.546,"end":2381.643,"text":"我沒有做PPT但是我有把我的書面資料都放在這樣的一個書面資料檔裡面我想第一個議題是有關於新世代打擊詐欺的行動綱領1.5版是否具有成效 是不是要擬定專法 有哪些方向"},{"start":2382.344,"end":2385.426,"text":"在去年頒布新世代打擊的行動綱領1.5版以市詐、堵詐、防詐、懲詐為面向以三檢的目標全面降低詐欺犯罪是非常重要的議題"},{"start":2402.677,"end":2403.057,"text":"中正大學犯罪防治學系﹚"},{"start":2430.502,"end":2447.062,"text":"做一些統計 有關於我們在整個刑事偵辦的部分我們的竊盜犯罪是下降 暴力犯罪也是下降毒品犯罪是持平 但是有來看這10年的發展裡頭"},{"start":2448.844,"end":2455.83,"text":"我們的詐欺犯罪大概成長從2013到2023這十年間我們大概成長了大概一成五左右嫌疑犯的話來到三成左右這都是雙雙來到我們近十年的新高點那顯見我們的詐欺犯罪是相當的一個嚴重"},{"start":2469.561,"end":2471.083,"text":"詐欺犯罪前五名 投資詐騙 解除分歧付款詐騙"},{"start":2491.204,"end":2492.865,"text":"網拍、購物詐騙、愛情詐騙這是我們做的一個比例如果看資料的話可以看出這樣的一個數據從這邊來看的話我們打詐的專法涵蓋的面向其實是相當的好"},{"start":2508.813,"end":2512.278,"text":"詐欺犯罪加重詐欺犯罪及首謀"},{"start":2525.075,"end":2541.882,"text":"我們除了將人物跟犯罪類型進行分類以外我們是不是應該要將犯罪的金額我這邊建議是將金額納入我們考量量刑的依據如果分這四個層面來看的話我們在像我自己有出版跨境詐騙的專書"},{"start":2543.724,"end":2559.126,"text":"在整個跨境裡面的這樣一個詐欺犯罪的組織的流程還有這個角色裡面有分金主聯絡負責任還有化物、機房、系統商還有金流商那這金流商裡面還有分車手還有洗錢"},{"start":2560.027,"end":2586.598,"text":"還有這些地下會隊等等的那我不曉得我們如果分這四個等級的話那這個組織犯罪裡面的這些角色是不是也要做一個區分如果去定義它是首謀還是一般的這樣一個部分那第二個就是說在第六條所陳列有關於嫌疑犯罪嫌疑人除了依證據保護的第四條規範以外可以追回他犯罪所得免除起刑"},{"start":2587.598,"end":2614.78,"text":"但是我們必須要考量免除期刑的刑者是否能夠大於他的犯罪守得我們以犯罪學的理性選擇理論來看的話那如果判的罪無法大於他犯罪利益的話我們很難將整個組織背後的這些守謀或者是這些運作的人揪出來所以我建議在量刑部分的第3條跟第4條的量刑應該給予適當的一個嚇阻的量刑的基準我們的第6條才能夠發揮功能"},{"start":2616.821,"end":2621.483,"text":"第8條規範數位中立服務提供者來協助詐欺組織犯罪防制義務的責任是我們打詐的一個進步的亮點在法條當中規範中介服務者應該立即提供服務"},{"start":2633.267,"end":2661.922,"text":"我們可以發現說其實在網路世界我們現在是一個資訊的世界那數位中介服務的重點就在即時性和利民性那我們必須要對於這些中介的服務者要刻意相關的義務和責任那對於這個中介服務者是不是要透過這個還有提供這個服務金融業者我想應該要把這個包容進來在背後的這種金融服務者我想也是考量的一個重點"},{"start":2662.742,"end":2663.943,"text":"金融、投資證券、投信、顧問法等平台上,在犯罪偵查階段,數位通訊軟體的監聽相當難以突破"},{"start":2680.614,"end":2703.87,"text":"科技偵查工具的使用沒有法源依據我們很容易因為非正當程序取得的資料而失去證據力這是第一個部分再來我們向上溯源的偵查起源在犯罪組織斷點的設置斷點的設置通常都是用通訊軟體為主通訊軟體的法律沒有具體法源依據我們再配合警察在第一個時間偵辦的話也會錯失所謂的上溯源的時機"},{"start":2711.415,"end":2734.204,"text":"金融查緝的困難與由於層層的轉匯,我們難以追查金融的一個動向加上金融單位配合時效會來不及,那如果跨境轉匯的話,其實會有一些困難就包含說我們現在有虛擬貨幣跟第三支付管理沒有落實,還有相關規範不完整那這種金融會對很容易成為犯罪的一個工具,這是第一個部分"},{"start":2735.004,"end":2736.365,"text":"金融詐賭 被詐騙人頭警示護書 先撥165 金融反罪 詐騙協調金融機構執行組織會議"},{"start":2752.657,"end":2773.27,"text":"到人頭賬戶裡頭的這些通報警示那這個資料如果在金融機構執行過慢的話這個人頭賬戶錢其實都已經匯出去了那這是第二點那還有所謂的第三支付跟電子行動支付的崛起那第一個就是我們不判不明的情況下也容易成為這個詐欺犯罪的利用的一個工具"},{"start":2774.35,"end":2776.272,"text":"現在我們在監獄裡我自己是假設委員會我發現有一個很有趣的數據一直前科前面的第一個犯罪是所謂的販毒有時候都判20幾年"},{"start":2790.627,"end":2817.521,"text":"後來這些人出獄之後現在都不做毒品的這些販毒的工作因為真的花費的成本太高所以我們在這個過程中遇到就是說前面是販毒判20幾年然後第二個犯罪類型是詐欺詐欺裁判1年到2年所以對他們在爭取假釋的時間其實是相當的快我現在發現有這種一直前科的這個現象所以我覺得說建議裡面我們要進行而且詐欺犯大概"},{"start":2818.001,"end":2818.141,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2847.222,"end":2874.983,"text":"那我覺得說現在我們鹹井合作已經辨識建立了30多種共通性的一個風水風險太陽那我們也會進行臨櫃關懷等等的但是如果我們將來可以引進所謂的AI辨識可疑的賬戶的話那我覺得這個部分其實是將來一個很重要我們必須要去做的一個工作那還有所謂對於這個平台業者的苛責性也相當的一個重要"},{"start":2876.464,"end":2902.016,"text":"對於我們所謂最後一點科技偵查工具需要哪些法源的依據然後又要保障所謂我們的隱私權那我國在實務新興科技偵查項目裡面有網路電話監聽通訊軟體有LINE、Skype、WeChat、空拍機、熱顯相儀、高倍還有M化車那這些都是我們所謂的新興的這種法源偵測但是目前我們看的偵查方式的法源"},{"start":2902.476,"end":2902.837,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2917.688,"end":2940.179,"text":"詠勳議員"},{"start":2940.899,"end":2953.168,"text":"好 謝謝首位發言的許教授那接下來馬上補充介紹到場的委員就是我們吳昭基委員中線到場 歡迎您好 那剛剛吳教授提到"},{"start":2958.819,"end":2984.346,"text":"許教授提到的幾個部分目前跟大家報告一下目前我看到最新的行政院今天的院會正在審查由金管會提出的重新擬具的證券投資信託及顧問法的部分條文修正草案所以呢這個我們看看今天行政院如果通過之後配合上今天公聽會的內容是不是在投顧投信這邊平台業者上是"},{"start":2985.046,"end":2992.917,"text":"如許教授所說有哪些應該要加強的部分接下來我們就有請第二位發言的邱憲明檢察官請"},{"start":3007.928,"end":3034.722,"text":"主席還有各位與會的長官還有就是與會的教授學者還有各位老師大家好好 那我是私營基建署檢察官邱信明那我今天來的主要的目的當然就是以就是基建檢察官的一個角度來去看目前我們就是針對一些犯罪集團尤其是詐欺的那個犯罪的部分那跟各位做一個簡單的報告那其實這是那個行政院核定的新世代打詐詐欺策略行動綱領的1.5版那我想"},{"start":3036.323,"end":3036.483,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3062.566,"end":3062.586,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":3082.711,"end":3082.731,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3105.254,"end":3105.274,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3122.259,"end":3122.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3138.847,"end":3164.518,"text":"目的基本上就是要騙錢但是要有一批人去負責把這些張款做一個類似Money Laundry的一個動作所以他們會有一批人負責去處理這個張款的部分但是因為他們現在的分工非常的細尤其是各位可以稍微想像一下他們是不是都會集中在一個地方依照我之前的一個辦案經驗其實他們都會分散在各地"},{"start":3164.978,"end":3165.138,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3184.671,"end":3184.691,"text":"網絡銀行轉匯"},{"start":3208.861,"end":3231.897,"text":"現在他們只要在家裡甚至只要有手機甚至是現在只要能夠有Wi-Fi連線他們就可以開始做一些洗錢的一些動作那速度其實是非常的快的那包含水房的收水其實就是第一線跟就是剛剛教授提到的投資詐欺的現在第一名的部分那其實他們都會直接跟被害人接觸然後直接去拿錢然後直接交給後面的水房幹部去做一個洗錢的動作"},{"start":3233.438,"end":3234.439,"text":"車手集團車手集團"},{"start":3253.795,"end":3253.815,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3270.092,"end":3270.212,"text":"詐欺犯罪"},{"start":3288.803,"end":3289.243,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3311.101,"end":3315.345,"text":"提供給基層檢察官要去審核的資料即使即便是人頭賬戶的案件其實在檢察官在偵辦的過程當中其實要看到的證據資料量其實是非常的大的"},{"start":3330.097,"end":3330.117,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3345.88,"end":3345.9,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3363.557,"end":3364.418,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法院第11會議"},{"start":3379.994,"end":3402.73,"text":"因為現在各種的賬片類型非常的多所以除了剛剛所講的這些基礎的這些證據資料之外包含這些不管是交付門號的提供實體帳戶或是提供電子支付帳戶的或是虛擬通貨的這些提供的帳戶的這些人包含現在也比較新興的現在蠻常見的就是Apple的禮物卡"},{"start":3404.651,"end":3405.472,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":3428.192,"end":3448.376,"text":"當然這過程當中的速度的部分能不能及時的去發現這些人及時的去主張這個就是我們要去思考的一個重點這邊以下就跟各位實際的一個方案有這個是已經結束了一個案子其實各位可以稍微看一下這是一個投資詐騙的一個案件這一個被害人總共被騙的一個人被騙了551萬他總共裡面用到的人頭賬戶總共有24個"},{"start":3452.637,"end":3454.578,"text":"這是一個投資詐欺的一個案件這24個代表裡面是有24個被告的24個人頭當然這些人頭賬戶當然就是經過警方的銀行單位凍結之後"},{"start":3470.242,"end":3470.382,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":3498.459,"end":3519.065,"text":"民眾他們為什麼會去賣帳戶的一個主要的原因當然是他們可能就是一個經濟上面的弱勢也許他今天被查獲也許輕判了之後那是不是他們又因為栗子所趨而且那個帳戶的收購的那個對價越來越高他們一樣又繼續再去申請再去賣"},{"start":3520.925,"end":3544.218,"text":"甚至現在有觀察到他們甚至是成為人頭公司的負責用人頭就是人頭公司用公司戶的方式去做一個開戶再做後續再配合詐騙集團一個洗錢的動作就蹲進去讓銀行很難去及時發現他們背後隱身其實詐騙集團的的的一個一份子這個是各位要去可以提供給這樣的資訊給大家做一個觀察OK好"},{"start":3546.02,"end":3557.771,"text":"這是有關於第1縣的懲判的員警在第1縣接受民眾被害人所報案之後所要做的聯訪通報機制這些資訊量是非常非常大的也是提供給各位做個參考"},{"start":3565.959,"end":3585.735,"text":"基本上 搜集大量被害人的資訊 基本上它是有一定的一個基本的效益的但是我們要著重的是在後續處理的部分可不可以繼續去追查共犯集團那贓款是不是可以追回 以及可不可以繼續詛咒當然我們現在真省有一些困境 包含就是因為現在的社群軟體APP都是一些境外的一些公司 取證其實蠻不容易的"},{"start":3586.155,"end":3586.235,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":3602.422,"end":3622.031,"text":"官方結構大,所以在法院審理上面的時程基本上也是很長的以及最後當然教授剛剛有提到有關我們的科技正常立法的部分也希望將來這邊大院這邊可以做個支持因為詐騙集團的分工非常的細希望我們可以大家一起努力然後讓詐騙集團可以斷絕謝謝"},{"start":3625.097,"end":3648.505,"text":"好 謝謝我們邱檢察官其實剛剛聆聽邱檢察官的說明發現有一個社會大眾會關心的我們積極地打詐抓這些提供賬戶的人頭是誰受到侵害這些人頭都是經濟大多是經濟弱勢者跟大家以為貪圖輕鬆賺錢的樣態未必相符"},{"start":3652.918,"end":3659.365,"text":"然而為什麼這些經濟弱勢者他有辦法從銀行取得可公為作為詐騙洗錢的帳戶關鍵在哪裡"},{"start":3665.374,"end":3690.164,"text":"請問信用卡發卡銀行會隨便給一個無業者一個額度上百萬的信用額度讓他刷卡嗎不會因為如果收不到錢發卡銀行會損失但是銀行為什麼會輕易的給一些看起來不像是在從事商業經營者給他一個可以任意做無限多次的轉帳金額規模也不設限的一個帳戶"},{"start":3692.186,"end":3714.633,"text":"這個其實就是我們今天社會要去正視的金融機構平台是不是共同有其他的責任應該要來加入協助打詐跟阻詐我想謝謝邱檢察官提供的這樣的一個觀點那接下來我們就請因為時間有正的同意我們由序號3由林志傑教授來發言請"},{"start":3724.907,"end":3743.514,"text":"主席 召集人 各位先進以及在場的立法院同仁 大家早安 大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑老師首先感謝我們主席能夠關注到這個詐騙橫行的狀況那麼也要感謝政府各部位在過去幾年來也很積極地努力地在防詐打詐"},{"start":3744.754,"end":3771.935,"text":"但是我必須講說詐騙集團的推陳出新是非常快的那總括來講今天因為時間有限我很快的把這幾年的觀察跟分享尤其是過去三年我曾經擔任金融消費評議中心的董事長處理過非常多金融消費者跟金融機構之間因為詐騙衍生的金融糾紛各位可想見他沒有辦法找到詐騙集團的時候就會把這個責任放到金融業者身上"},{"start":3772.555,"end":3781.502,"text":"我必須說,詐騙的橫行造成金融業很大一個典範跟身份的挫制過去金融業它最主要的是把客戶服務好"},{"start":3782.443,"end":3805.172,"text":"也就是說客戶來開戶我們是客戶至上但突然之間金融業要變成剪掉機關手足的延伸其實這個對過去幾年來整個金融業的典範移轉造成非常大的衝擊我必須要講就是今晚會在這個部分也相當的努力但他的這個角色身份移轉跟他的mindset我覺得要改變不是有辦法一下子之間做好的"},{"start":3805.592,"end":3828.027,"text":"同類型的狀況也發生在電信詐騙電信業者跟金融業者也是一樣的作為特許行業他們過去的想法都是客戶至上絕對要到客戶滿意為止可是突然之間這個客戶可能是詐騙集團的共犯可能是車手可能是潛在的洗錢者這個使得電信業者跟金融業者目前到底他們應該用怎樣的身份來自處"},{"start":3829.048,"end":3850.637,"text":"我覺得在整個規範上要給他們更清楚的方向因為他們本身也有一定的使命那這個跟他作為檢調手足的延伸完全是兩種衝突的角色第二個是在詐騙的類型上面有一種是真正的詐騙根本就不存在類似的金融商品比如說他跟你講魷魚筆根本就沒有這種東西可是他卻打著這樣子的稱號來詐騙"},{"start":3852.498,"end":3869.651,"text":"有一些是真的有這樣子的狀況但它的風險非常的高險不相當做了錯誤的投資那很明顯我們今天的公聽會主要是針對我們講的完全不存在的從頭到尾就是騙子他可能根本就是以後手來給付前手的錢"},{"start":3870.171,"end":3893.833,"text":"不存在這樣的金融商品的狀況那前面一種狀況我覺得他最要負責的當然就是金管會因為他介紹了這個不相當的商品造成很多金融消費者在投資上風險評估的錯誤但是後面的這個部分我覺得他就需要所有的部會一起來聯動簡單講我自己觀察這幾年的漏洞有下列幾個第一個剛剛我們檢察官也提到的"},{"start":3893.953,"end":3921.75,"text":"也是我自己觀察到最大一個漏洞就是公司人頭賬戶也就是過往我們把非法的活動行為人都以自然人來處理這是台灣整體刑事犯罪防範一個很大的缺漏就是當他今天以組織體的身份來犯罪的時候我們的規制是少的所以如果我今天開個人的人頭賬戶可能會受到很多的管制可是公司的部分我們沒有非常清楚的規定我覺得這是第一個"},{"start":3922.35,"end":3948.077,"text":"第二是臺灣有75萬的移工這些移工他本身在防詐上面的宣導跟他能夠接受到的保護我覺得也是一個非常大的漏洞因為我們自己在評議中心也有接到移工打電話來要求或者是請問相關的這個問題我覺得就移工的部分也是我們必要注意的第三個當然是網路平台還有各種比如說在LINE群組或者是FB群組"},{"start":3948.917,"end":3964.238,"text":"所做的不管是炒股或者是推薦違法金融商品要如何的解散社團讓他極速可以下架預防後手不斷的進來再來就是個資的洩漏各位可以看到所有的詐騙集團他一定是先從取得個資開始"},{"start":3965.339,"end":3989.105,"text":"他拿到你的個資才有辦法跟你套交情進而一步一步誘使被詐騙者落入詐騙的陷阱然而目前我們企業雖然經濟部在1月已經要求各個企業或者是零售會員你要好好保護我們不是每到一個地方都問你要不要加入會員嗎各位想想看這些你加入會員的資訊如果對方的公司跟企業沒有保管好"},{"start":3989.485,"end":4011.82,"text":"不管是軟硬體遭害或遭到破壞或遭到個資的竊取或者是洩漏他就成為詐騙集團最好的工具因為有了這些個資他可以假扮檢察官假扮業者告訴你你重複付款然後要你來取消或者是你哪一筆錢出了錯誤他們要更正然後慢慢的就做詐騙所以個資才是最大的源頭"},{"start":4012.58,"end":4031.268,"text":"如何要求收集別人各資的公司必須要負起各資保管的責任我覺得這也是詐騙源頭阻斷非常重要的原因那所以如果就修法的部分第一個當然是洗錢管道多元化所以我們相對應的洗錢管道監管也必須多元化所以虛擬資產的納管"},{"start":4033.069,"end":4054.96,"text":"或者是分級管理一定是我們必須要做的第二個是科技偵查的部分以過去因為詐騙集團的這個偵查來破獲用這個M化車的方式當然我們可以了解科技偵查法就人權跟隱私部分某一些部分我們還需要更多的周密的思考但是針對特定的犯罪事項"},{"start":4055.74,"end":4084.281,"text":"使用M化車恐怕是不可避免的情形那最高法院已經講了他就是認為這是一個違法偵查所以你必須要把它納入所以如果我們新的詐騙防制的這個組織犯罪的辦法可以把新興的科技偵查手段把它納入就是只有在特定的某些犯罪狀況下做這個使用我個人認為是合於比例原則的所以這一點也要請與會先進跟我們的立法委員們可以斟酌"},{"start":4086.363,"end":4104.121,"text":"罪犯狀況對高齡者是非常危險的事,因為高齡者已經沒有主動收入的能力一旦今天發生詐騙,他幾乎後半生是毫無所依那又因為高齡者擁有最多的資產,所以可以成為詐騙集團被鎖定的一個目標"},{"start":4107.945,"end":4130.213,"text":"這個情況也發生在日本這一本我非常推薦各位看叫做《詐欺老人》他詳細分析了為什麼日本會有這麼多優秀的年輕人加入詐騙集團去詐騙老人因為他基本上已經把年輕人洗腦成一種毫無希望看不見未來的日本新世代要能從底層翻身的唯一方法"},{"start":4130.573,"end":4158.442,"text":"就是把壟斷財富的老人當作獵物所以他是一個極端的挑起對立然後去洗腦而且培訓非常優秀的年輕人所以日本現在面臨的危機是他的年輕人不務正業很多人是加入這種非法組織各位看到有沒有覺得跟台灣的狀況也有他的類似性所以對於脆弱處境或者是心智障礙缺陷或者是高齡失智的長者他所做的某些詐欺行為"},{"start":4159.062,"end":4182.942,"text":"有沒有可能用某些特殊的情境在刑度上予以加重也就是說像我們在性侵害我們有規定針對7歲以下的幼童為之有沒有可能針對某一些情況特殊脆弱的處境來去科與比較重的刑罰我覺得這一點也是可以考慮的最後要講的就是如果在一些處分上面除了罰則"},{"start":4184.043,"end":4199.686,"text":"有沒有可能堅於考慮其他處分的方式比如說要求他從此不可以申請手機號碼比如說要求他一段時間不得使用金融帳戶當然我們可以理解說金融普惠"},{"start":4200.146,"end":4226.811,"text":"但是這個就跟你可以去買車但因為你酒駕我就把你吊銷或者是不讓你開車一段時間在金融的世界裡金融帳戶是你在金融世界裡的憑證同樣的在網路世界裡手機是你的license但是你既然abuse你的這個權利我就暫停你或者讓你一段時間是不能夠使用不能夠申請的我個人認為這個對於自由權的侵害也是合於比例原則的因為"},{"start":4227.691,"end":4256.952,"text":"我並沒有說你不能買但是我可以讓你一段時間不能用那最後就是針對潛在的被害人比如說目前我們的青年非常有可能因為目前民法18歲就可以開戶了所以過去20歲以上才可以成為完全行為能力人在過去一年已經變成18所以像這樣如果他的金融素養不足的年輕人或是心智比較有退化那沒有主動收入的老人家潛在的被害人"},{"start":4257.392,"end":4280.305,"text":"前在的犯罪人像我們剛剛講的他可能是社會的弱勢他要出賣帳戶或者是他容易為利用這兩個群體如何在教育端來給予更多的賠利也是我認為可以防制犯罪非常重要的幾個原因那以上簡短報告希望我們這一次的修法能夠成功那來保障人民的財務安全謝謝"},{"start":4282.16,"end":4295.564,"text":"非常謝謝林教授非常精闢有力的內容我們現在補充介紹到場的委員是莊瑞雄委員歡迎待會要請莊委員來代理一下主席那其實剛剛我"},{"start":4297.705,"end":4320.985,"text":"林教授所提到的幾個部分與我們心有戚戚焉年輕人自己家裡的長輩不好騙在日本去騙人家家裡的長輩這個是弱勢詐騙另外提到移工的部分過去移工因為在我們的普惠金融上不把它視為一個對象所以移工他有需要的轉匯的需求不是在正規銀行取得可以轉帳的帳戶都是在一些地下"},{"start":4321.485,"end":4321.585,"text":"賴詠蓮教授"},{"start":4348.716,"end":4375.236,"text":"主席還有在場的立法委員還有我們與會的學者專家各位部會還有我們民間團體的代表大家早安大家好那很高興有這機會來參加今天我們司法法制委員會所舉辦的有關詐欺犯罪防制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點的這樣的一個公聽會那倍感榮幸那我是國立中正大學犯罪防制學系賴永蓮教授"},{"start":4381.991,"end":4409.942,"text":"很多人會去質疑說我們臺灣好像是一個特別刑法肥大政特別刑法非常多的一個國家我記得我們的之前老師林三田教授曾經講過我們法治具有這個特別刑法肥大政的這樣的問題那長期存在跌床駕屋捨棄普通法的畸形現象甚至他也講出這個好像違反了法治國原則當然我們今天不是來上課"},{"start":4410.962,"end":4430.576,"text":"我是認為今天我們立法院要提出來的打詐專法是有它的一個必要性的那為什麼呢第一個我們在犯罪學裡面我們常常強調的是治本策略的重要性可是目前以台灣的現象來講你要從治本策略包含家庭學校社區等這方面的一個犯罪的預防"},{"start":4431.357,"end":4431.557,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":4451.682,"end":4469.807,"text":"主持犯罪防治條例、毒品無害防治條例、性侵犯罪防治條例等等,他們都是所謂的特別刑法更重要的就是在這個特別刑法當中,我們可以把偵查、預防、剿制甚至處遇的這些作為都納入到這個專法當中而這個部分是普通刑法比較難以匹配的"},{"start":4476.953,"end":4488.364,"text":"民眾對司法犯罪防制滿意度的調查裡面在政府打詐犯罪防制的表現當中有五成三的民眾表達不滿意的態度所以這樣的民眾或許"},{"start":4489.125,"end":4490.006,"text":"從這幾個角度我認為專法有它的必要性"},{"start":4507.014,"end":4524.651,"text":"在刑事局上個月公布的幾個數據剛剛有幾位兩位老師也有提到過我們再回想一下第一個我們的詐騙的金額各位去年已經達到將近89億跟前年同一個時期比起來73億已經成長了百分之二十一點多"},{"start":4525.936,"end":4541.816,"text":"那詐騙的這個前幾名的部分剛剛主席也有提到了像假投資假的網路拍賣還有解除分期付款這是前三名的那還有特別是假投資的這個部分他的財損一直是高居第一位"},{"start":4542.737,"end":4568.712,"text":"然後呢整個詐騙案件呢從前人的23000件成長到35000多件這個成長已經進了50%所以是這麼嚴峻但是你說我們成立了打詐辦公室我們各部會特別是在執法單位沒有努力嗎我特別秀出了這一張叫做冰山一角很努力但是下面的我們講這種隱性的潛在的沒有曝光的黑數多不多可能更多"},{"start":4569.713,"end":4581.655,"text":"所以你追的越多我們派的人力越多所以看到的就是案件量查獲增加那麼主詐的這些金額也增加查獲的金額也增加但下面呢你根本就不知道他有多大"},{"start":4582.905,"end":4611.359,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天覺得說民眾認為政府呢我們很努力在打詐投注了很多的人力包含檢查系統我們的檢察官已經他的這個案件量爆量我們的警察打詐中心成立了我們呢打詐的這個小組設在這個我們的這個刑事局裡面各基層的警察也都投入了但是呢各位可以發現為什麼民眾他的感受還是非常的無感為什麼因為下面的母體太大下面母體太大所以"},{"start":4612.321,"end":4636.778,"text":"陳如我們剛剛許教授所講的這一些人就是一種理性選擇嘛那為什麼會去選擇包含你像現在的組織犯罪包含我們現在的毒品犯罪他們不再去從事相同的債犯而去從事打詐包含日本也是這樣子的一個情形因為他就符合了低成本、低刑罰的威嚇、高獲利嘛所以這就是我們講的理性選擇的一種詮釋"},{"start":4638.831,"end":4655.597,"text":"好 那所以呢回應到我們今天的這個公聽會的一些主題裡面所提到的我們的打詐專法那些面向當中要包含哪一些我們的一個思維就是第一個我們要墊高犯罪的成本第二個呢 要降低標定物被鎖定的一個風險"},{"start":4656.697,"end":4679.91,"text":"被害的風險那墊高成本的部分呢包含了提升偵辦犯罪的能力跟條件提高我們的刑度附加呢我記得我們在去年做一個研究的時候有退休的檢察官現在從事律師他在辦案的時候他跟我們講過一個很重要的利器就是被我們大法官在4至第812號解釋所宣告違憲的就是強制工作"},{"start":4680.874,"end":4708.526,"text":"這一些的詐騙犯他的平均刑度只有多少一年到一年半但是他又附加一個強制工作一次三年各位就是很高的一個賀祖的功效但是這個已經被宣告違憲了所以這一些的成本還有假設門檻剛剛我們先進有提到的假設的門檻當中我們的審查除了他的刑事要件二分之一或三分之二之外你還要去考慮到說他的這些上課的時數還有"},{"start":4709.747,"end":4709.767,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4725.566,"end":4743.658,"text":"這個附加他的保護管束有沒有可能委由勞動部來執行他的一些所謂的技能訓練的一個工作也就是說我們相對的變相的或者是說附加一些額外的負擔讓他們去認為把他的這個餘力去投注在這種所謂的詐騙這個是不值得選擇的一個行為所以這個部分我們在考慮的時候就是要從這幾個方方面面來讓他墊高他的犯罪成本"},{"start":4754.284,"end":4781.854,"text":"那麼降低被害的這個風險的這個區塊當中我們去年的研究裡面 包含剛剛我們說這個林志傑老師有提到的為什麼老人容易被鎖定為什麼哪一些族群容易被鎖定所以這個犯罪預防不能全面性的就是一般普羅大眾來做這樣子我們應該要達到分類分群分年齡層分族群甚至移工可能也被詐騙都要分這些分齡分群分類來做這個犯罪預防的宣導"},{"start":4782.674,"end":4798.615,"text":"那麼對於有創傷症候群的 去年我們的研究發現我們有30%的受訪的民眾已經有重複被害的問題他們也表達出了有所謂的創傷症候的問題所以這個部分我們是不是在專法當中要把他納進來"},{"start":4799.716,"end":4825.719,"text":"拉到哪裡?把我們的被害人保護法權益的這個保護的這個區塊呢也連結在一起針對這些被害人政府可以提供什麼樣的一個資源什麼樣的一個協助的部分那麼以納入當中所以我們的目標就是降低新生被詐騙的人口各位不要以為不可行我們在實施毒品的這個新世代反毒第一一點零然後到第二點零的時候我們可能下個月要實施三點零"},{"start":4826.44,"end":4854.56,"text":"那這個2.0的時候我們的論述裡面就提到我們的毒品的新生人口確實下降所以呢我們一定要把這些被詐騙的人口這個人口新生的這個被詐騙人口的這個數量要把它下降做我們這個很重要的一個目標然後提高我們的執法跟追溯的效能然後呢最重要的就是加重刑罰的嚇阻的威嚇讓他們認為詐騙犯罪不再是一個值回票價的選擇這個是我們很重要的那"},{"start":4860.427,"end":4861.428,"text":"林智傑教授"},{"start":4875.166,"end":4896.228,"text":"包含金流、資通訊、金管會、通傳會、速發部的工作因為這些工作 其實我們的執法部門沒有這樣的源頭沒有辦法去有效的 相對的把一些打詐的不法的帳戶也好 金流也好甚至這些平台也好 給它下架"},{"start":4896.989,"end":4912.61,"text":"所以這一個專法當中一定要把相關的金流跟資通訊的部會也好全部納進來以降低這些人從事投資詐騙案件的源頭的管理那最後剛剛也有提到的就是說我們在犯罪"},{"start":4913.431,"end":4931.87,"text":"我們的像數位中介法還有科技偵查法等都沒有辦法通過所以剛剛林志傑老師也提到像N化車等等那這個區塊針對特殊的犯罪案件我們也有像類似的就是組織犯罪防制條例針對組織犯罪的部分我們也把N化車也放進去了所以今天針對打詐的這個區塊當中我們也建議"},{"start":4934.372,"end":4934.392,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4950.194,"end":4950.495,"text":"報告完畢 以上請指正 謝謝"},{"start":4969.943,"end":4983.01,"text":"謝謝賴教授我想今天在代理中委員主席的位置有幾句話想跟大家感謝一下立法院我們這麼多年來我們每天都在聽"},{"start":4984.091,"end":4997.968,"text":"我們一直在聽這聽了這麼多專家學者的一個意見那最主要的原因就是這個整個打詐我們這個政府投下這麼多的人力物力財力可是這個績效啊"},{"start":4999.87,"end":5020.65,"text":"民眾是不滿意的啦我相信各位啊好多都是我們的前輩啊各位也都是不滿意的但問題就是因為不滿意才會有今天這個公聽會這個公聽會那大家都是希望說啊這個這個財產犯罪啊可以再一直把它加重立法院其實這幾年啊我只要各位來社會上我要求的"},{"start":5021.531,"end":5050.51,"text":"好像是唯一的法寶就剩下刑責把它加重加重到整個法律的體系有時候幾個學法的在這邊我們都嘩嘩叫因為整個體系都幾乎快顛覆掉但是我們都求助於各位各界看有沒有辦法讓這個在整個打詐的部分這個詐騙的部分在台灣可以降低那大家大概好像就是今天刑事警察局那邊也有來內政部刑事警察局也有來"},{"start":5051.411,"end":5069.809,"text":"到最後大家都會客語的就是檢察官警察不然立法院把刑度弄高立法院第一個不是審你把它弄高以後又怎麼樣第二個你說檢察官檢察官大家都會想到就是說他案子已經增加了那麼多檢察官也不是審"},{"start":5071.795,"end":5100.157,"text":"打詐犯罪裡面政治檢察官也是那個要整個團隊大家去把它共同合作檢察官也不是每個領域都懂還有監管會 刑事警察局太多太多太多了所以我今天我們立法院這邊我今天要從頭把它做到尾要很謙虛的再來聽聽看有沒有辦法大家的意見來逐攻立法院來大家最後大家集思廣益我們全力來做一個支持"},{"start":5100.937,"end":5108.109,"text":"讓它有成效出來我看這才是重點接下來我要來請我們這個也在法界有法界背景的我們吳仲憲吳委員"},{"start":5116.704,"end":5144.896,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想就是我這邊先簡單做因為這邊在場有很多都是我以前司法官訓練所的指導老師還有以前一起辦案的戰友們我想說問題在哪裡我們都很清楚我今天想提一個東西就是說公欲善其事必先利其器我非常的清楚現在打詐遇到一個很大的問題就是"},{"start":5146.981,"end":5165.933,"text":"我們的那個數位偵查法還是要趕快給它過必須在這邊呼籲我們自己立法院的同仁或是所有相關的人如果沒有過的一天我們今天對打詐就是使不上力這一點必須 因為我自己做了很久"},{"start":5166.974,"end":5190.362,"text":"在偵查方面的工作那也辦了很多詐騙集團的案件所以我很清楚一件事情沒有這些偵查的方式我們走不下去到現在連M化車的證據能力連GPS的證據能力都還在討論的時候我們其實在世界上像是石器時代的國家在面對一個高科技的業者這是我們現在會面臨的問題所以請大家"},{"start":5193.243,"end":5199.341,"text":"了解一件事 法定型的加重再怎麼加重你很難遏止他們不做壞事"},{"start":5200.589,"end":5200.889,"text":"秀卿銘警察官"},{"start":5231.056,"end":5236.322,"text":"目前法務部對於基層檢察官有沒有提供足夠的辦案資源還有職職上的協助"},{"start":5252.619,"end":5252.78,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5270.074,"end":5270.634,"text":"現在面臨最大的問題目前有沒有提供實質上的協助"},{"start":5283.049,"end":5284.65,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5300.864,"end":5300.884,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5320.857,"end":5340.901,"text":"在去年的部分,法務部又要了一筆預算,有增加所謂的檢察官助理現在有100位檢察官的助理,現在正在地檢署幫檢察官做有關於一些打詐的業務的部分尤其是有關一些資料整理的部分,就正如我剛剛所講的案子,例子為例"},{"start":5343.402,"end":5343.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5369.475,"end":5391.63,"text":"人力之外 數位財政室目前成效好不好有關於數位財政室的部分其實設置的部分因為這樣人頭的案子進來之後當然我們會請尤其有些被告會提供一些手機的部分我們當然會請地檢署因為地檢署現在都有設置數位財政室除了我們所知道的像"},{"start":5393.051,"end":5413.912,"text":"行事局及電話局採證之外 為了紓解他們的業務部分 地檢署可以直接做採證的部分 速度可以加快的 包含第一線所知道的手機的情資 能夠再去pass給友軍單位 大家可以進行分進合集的一個方案"},{"start":5415.513,"end":5441.056,"text":"那我請教一下那個黃副局長就是目前這個因為外交上面的問題然後還有就是沒有兩岸共打那這一塊我們將來怎麼有沒有補位的因為我想今天雖然是公聽會但是我希望聽到因為大家講的東西不一定是我們認為真正的核心問題那我想說我請教您一件事情就是你可不可以跟我們大家講一下"},{"start":5442.177,"end":5454.575,"text":"兩岸公島現在沒有繼續了嘛那也沒有外交的問題那現在有一些有沒有什麼補位的方式還有另外就是錢會出去國外IP在國外有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":5456.348,"end":5483.676,"text":"跟委員報告前會出去國外目前確實是比較困難的地方因為歹徒用跳板用VPN去做這個隱匿身份確實是比較難以追查不過我們現在已經在科技偵查法也好通訊保障型偵查法也好一直在想辦法把一些相關的紀錄跟流量可以做一定的處理那未來我們是有信心可以去增加這個查到的機率那當然是"},{"start":5484.436,"end":5492.001,"text":"司法互助及兩岸共打這都是我們要持續努力的目標也是我們政府應該努力的目標今天不是質詢我想說點出幾個因為我看了大家的報告還有"},{"start":5501.146,"end":5501.467,"text":"民眾在乎的雖然說"},{"start":5519.9,"end":5547.083,"text":"現在IP在國外我們就拿他沒辦法錢匯出國外我們也拿他沒辦法但是被害人他不是在乎他的主要在乎不是這個人被判多久而是我的錢拿不拿得回來但是我們一直著重在我們要怎麼樣加這些人的刑度大家忘了一件事這些辛苦的人民他的錢拿不回來所以我剛剛請教大家的問題其實中國一個最核心的問題就在這裡"},{"start":5548.652,"end":5548.672,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5571.887,"end":5592.427,"text":"盡量多簽一點司法互助找一些多一點國家因為這不涉及什麼政治司法互助我們能夠跟他們要一些資料我們才能把錢追回來還給這些辛苦的台灣人民我的今天我的意思是在這裡我一直不覺得硬爆主義是最棒的事情不是把這些人抓去關對國家就是好事"},{"start":5593.288,"end":5619.658,"text":"真的對這些被害人好的事幫他們把錢找回來我的想 核心的問題就在這裡好 謝謝大家 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳昭偉在這裡也謝謝剛剛莊委員的代理主持也跟委員會和公聽會與會的學者專家代表和列席的政府機關官說明那麼其實公聽會在立法院職權行使過程當中"},{"start":5621.118,"end":5621.479,"text":"公聽會．事由．"},{"start":5636.44,"end":5636.6,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5656.981,"end":5657.101,"text":"臺灣電信產業發展協會"},{"start":5697.731,"end":5725.866,"text":"主席在座各位先進還有後面所有的部會的長官還有與會的所有的專家學者還有各位朋友大家好今天能夠參加這個公聽會我必須誠實說從我的內心受邀開始我是用驚喜兩個字來看待這件事因為過往類似的公聽會或者是助團會或相關的會議很少會從配合的產業的角度"},{"start":5726.366,"end":5726.566,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5743.023,"end":5758.541,"text":"電信業者長期就是我們的兩個主管機關NCC和數位部的打詐的協力夥伴其實包含不論是國際來話的警示宣告或者是主角國際來話甚至於數位部提出了111的簡訊"},{"start":5760.183,"end":5760.203,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5782.049,"end":5804.448,"text":"修法其實我提了兩個部分一個其實是大院提出來的這個打詐專法的部分跟我自己實務上有關的其實是有兩個條文一個是在第7條一個在第8條那我就很實務的就實務上就第7條的部分因為在條文裡面希望電信業者可以依電信法第22條去做"},{"start":5806.99,"end":5807.27,"text":"主席"},{"start":5825.7,"end":5848.067,"text":"包含司法機關只要能夠通知我們有犯罪嫌疑的話呢我們就拒絕相關的電信服務的申辦就像剛才林智傑老師所提的如果今天人民有這個申請通訊的自由或者是申請這個我們在電信管理法無正當理由不得拒絕電信服務的前提之下但你有犯罪經通告的話"},{"start":5848.567,"end":5877.83,"text":"你應該就被褫奪部分的通訊的權利那麼這個部分應該由主管機關或有權單位來宣告並通知我們到底要限制它的申辦服務多久的期間那麼這個部分也是一個懲戒的部分我們是願意配合也希望把它明文在法規上那第8條的部分其實對我們來看應該是數位中介服務的提供者部分它涵蓋的範圍很廣其實剛才私底下其實有老師也問像Meta 像Line"},{"start":5879.031,"end":5893.486,"text":"最多的所謂的詐騙的管道的來源或許可以從第8條可以來看但問題是或許第8條到底這些境外的OTT平台在為落地管理的時候能不能透過第8條去"},{"start":5895.427,"end":5915.356,"text":"執行,我覺得這是另外一個要討論的,但是在原始條文我們也可以看到說是要服務提供者用服務條款自願性的針對詐欺犯罪的違法內容採取調查偵測辨識移除限制的措施,那我也必須說現行的數位中介服務者"},{"start":5916.581,"end":5932.963,"text":"很多其實是小型的業者或者是境外的業者更百分之百是民間業者科語或賦語民間業者這樣類似司法調查權的條文我擔心會落入原先數位中介法裡面"},{"start":5934.385,"end":5950.239,"text":"全民言論監控及隱私權益侵害的部分所以我們認為數五位中介服務提供者的確應該成為協力的夥伴甚至於像剛才林智傑老師說的如果今天你有違法之餘就應該限制或阻絕你"},{"start":5951.901,"end":5970.402,"text":"實用或得到相應的服務所以我也建議比照第7條是接獲主管機關或司法機關有關的通知之後就停止他的相關的服務如果停止相關的服務應該後續還搭配什麼我覺得可以往西部的討論但是我覺得這條最大的問題在於很多境外的服務提供者"},{"start":5970.802,"end":5971.262,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5986.687,"end":5986.747,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6003.684,"end":6004.105,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6021.981,"end":6048.223,"text":"應該在電信管理法第5條裏面不論他是不是辦理電信的登記他應該就被視為電信事業被視為電信事業他就應該按電信管理法的角度去提供相關的包含所謂的剛才的人頭戶的問題人頭門號的問題都可以得到解決因為凡電信事業就必須透過KYC的整個流程去確認你的申辦者是否為本人所以呢凡"},{"start":6048.803,"end":6048.944,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":6059.833,"end":6070.539,"text":"在第5條的部分,就所謂的電信事業有1234之外,現行最多的也是最多破口的包含了經營虛擬行動網路或者是轉售虛擬的號碼還有其他用電信事業提供的無線電頻率這些都是屬於電信服務的行為,就應該直接納入電信事業"},{"start":6080.525,"end":6108.186,"text":"並且可予他要去做消費者的KYC也就是說必須要確實確認你的用戶身份的事情如果這兩個條文能夠被修改的話我覺得剛才這個警察官所提的人頭賬戶的問題或許可以得到一個比較直接的解決那另外在這個新興偵辦新興科技的部分其實我是非常非常Echo林志傑老師所提到的因為"},{"start":6109.246,"end":6134.846,"text":"現在的新興科技偵查的部分對於電信業者而言我必須感謝就是一個民間業者老實說不是專業的犯罪偵查者另外一個民間業者他有他的法徵議題要遵守我們現在的困擾在於很多的實務上沒有法徵可做以及科技偵查過程當中需要我們配合的部分舉例而言好了"},{"start":6136.246,"end":6157.935,"text":"目前網路上的連線紀錄流量你造訪哪一個網站目前他其實是一個動態性的用戶的隱私或者是個資的訊息在電信管理法的範圍裡面我們是不可以去追蹤監管監控或者是窺看"},{"start":6159.275,"end":6182.311,"text":"保留這些資訊的所以在過往討論的時候希望電信業者無差別式的保留所有消費者或用戶在網路上所所行的軌跡跟跟他的訊息事實上他有危害憲法侵害憲法的疑慮那這個部分我Echo林智傑老師說的應該是按照現行通報法裡面"},{"start":6184.793,"end":6199.671,"text":"特定個案或特別案例被視為應該偵查對象的時候﹐透過法官保留的方式提出申請﹐就法官保留申請之後﹐往後未來做特定個案的留存"},{"start":6200.071,"end":6200.211,"text":"主席"},{"start":6218.646,"end":6244.017,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉副秘書長我們當然很歡迎您後續的補充在聆聽完其他學者專家代表及機關的回應之後接下來我們有請鄭善信教授發言主席還有我們的議會的各先進們以及機關"},{"start":6246.203,"end":6270.773,"text":"我們的代表們大家好我是開南大學的教師我的發言有以下幾點第一個就是我們看了這麼多的詐騙我認為應該把它區分開來第一個區分這個吸金案跟詐欺不一樣吸金案比如說IMB這種很典型的吸金案"},{"start":6273.45,"end":6295.704,"text":"法規 它的主辦機關 調查局 你要把它割開來 剪掉剪緊 你要割開來 割開來以後才能夠克責 這個是應該要做的我看檢察機關好像 欸 通通混在一起 這個不好 這樣子的話無從克責 所以 吸盡案應該誰辦"},{"start":6298.002,"end":6312.715,"text":"現在已經有法規了 就這樣辦 不應該扯在一起全民最在意的詐騙 我認為用工具可以分成三類第一個是用電信來詐騙"},{"start":6324.221,"end":6337.525,"text":"主管的機關也做了很多努力發佈了很多行政命令但我跟他看的結果有一個共通點就是看起來沒有百分之百的落實"},{"start":6340.308,"end":6364.085,"text":"並且他的這個 申請這些門號 帳戶的這個門檻太低了 幾乎完全沒有審核 這個我能夠理解一張人頭門號 無論如何被詐騙集團使用 最後的獲利者當然是我電信公司嘛 我怎麼會有"},{"start":6365.219,"end":6367.88,"text":"金融機關也是一樣,你錢轉來轉去,每轉一筆,我就轉一筆。金融普惠,電信普惠,這個是當然的,這個是大棋子,拿一個人權大棋就..."},{"start":6390.134,"end":6403.838,"text":"其實裡面包含了很多我們看不到的東西因此我認為真正的重點應該是要在把這三種管道的人頭抓清楚也就是人頭門號人頭帳戶人頭公司各位你還記得吧幾十年前還有"},{"start":6413.132,"end":6430.298,"text":"銀行的這個支票 支票人頭我用我的人頭去弄100張 就去賣給這些惡劣的公司那個支票人頭 所以我認為人頭才是真正的問題點應該要控管好 那好 我也非常贊成"},{"start":6434.71,"end":6454.223,"text":"用裝法的方式執政黨到目前為止的這些做法也就是打詐1.5這些我認為都在甘霖上面在基礎上面我認為都應該繼續下去那麼倘若可以的話弄一個裝法我認為這個裝法應該有以下幾個重點第一個就是他應該是"},{"start":6463.635,"end":6485.267,"text":"犯罪預防法不是那個犯罪偵查法不是那個犯罪執行法應該是犯罪預防法什麼意思呢他只有預防那些人頭如何擴散如何把它壓制下來的功能而已那為什麼這樣講呢我們來看一下訂這種專法在我們臺灣"},{"start":6491.001,"end":6502.819,"text":"大概有兩類一個叫做基本法我們台灣有類似的基本法有10個這樣子的基本法它最重要的目的是讓政黨輪替的時候"},{"start":6504.721,"end":6528.972,"text":"他的政策不至於斷絕上一次的政黨定下來的法條都在啊你下一任的這個政府你一定要接下去不能夠方案啊這個冰凍啊不行不行一定要持續下來所以基本法有這樣子的這個功能因此他沒有任何的作用法沒有任何的偵查沒有任何的處罰的這種條文沒有"},{"start":6531.022,"end":6554.531,"text":"這是我們10個基本法的特色但還有另外一種基本法譬如性侵害犯罪反制基本法這樣子的性侵害犯罪反制法雖然它沒有基本法這個名稱但是它有它的實質它的實質在哪裡呢第一個有一個中央主管機關以及各"},{"start":6555.131,"end":6569.974,"text":"目的事業的主管機關接下來他們成立了一個網路的這個制度網路能夠連線能夠共管同樣一件事情這樣子的性侵害犯罪防治法是從美國引進來的20年前從美國引進來的原本都沒有我們原本的這個法律都是走"},{"start":6581.684,"end":6607.065,"text":"德國路線 都走德國路線 也就是 個別個別的剛剛那個賴先生 賴永年老師講 這個我們的 這個什麼 特別法肥大政 我跟你講各國不一樣 各國不一樣 德國是很不喜歡 沒有錯 沒有錯美國不一樣喔 日本也不一樣喔 我們台灣也引進了這個性侵害犯罪防治法 20年下來 各位你給他看一下"},{"start":6608.311,"end":6625.843,"text":"做得好不好我認為非常有效尤其在兩性貧權在性騷擾在性侵害這一部分我認為做得非常有效一定我們看成效的話一定會比日本韓國中國大陸或者我們鄰近的國家做得多好"},{"start":6627.64,"end":6649.785,"text":"這一點是我們很值得驕傲的 倘若貴會能夠再重新看一次《性侵害犯罪防制法》認為它做得好的話 成效很不錯的話我認為這個是已經有的東西 可以反照一下反照一下的話 我們一定要很清楚的把它割開來"},{"start":6653.041,"end":6675.174,"text":"絕大部分都是犯罪預防法不是犯罪偵查法因為犯罪的偵查檢察官跟實體的刑罰都有了你假如再把它定下去的話會重複定定那個法條的這個經合非常麻煩你怎麼定呢所以我認為應該把它限定在"},{"start":6676.769,"end":6687.738,"text":"犯罪以防法連科技偵查也不要進去你說AIM化車定在這裡面別的案件不要了嘛我們警察辦別的案件不要了嘛更何況AIM化車"},{"start":6691.425,"end":6692.945,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6718.834,"end":6720.375,"text":"我舉一個例子他們去年6月吧"},{"start":6749.662,"end":6776.138,"text":"在163163G那個地方也訂了一個就是啊車牌辨識資料庫的規定在刑事訴訟法裡面喔刑事訴訟法裡面喔那麼他們的這個立法已經訂了我們有沒有辦法他這個法律保留他這個立法的速度跟這個這麼快這麼好效率這麼高"},{"start":6777.56,"end":6796.754,"text":"是德國的法文化你一再講要跟德國學我跟你講現況的這些警察所做的事情像車牌辨識通通會被方案通通會被方案這個我們是要特別注意這個我認為不宜通通用他們的那麼我認為在"},{"start":6802.486,"end":6829.114,"text":"我們的性侵害犯罪法裡面有幾個大特色第一個就是有中央主管機關還有目的事業主管機關並且各機關做什麼事很清楚還有一個他用的大概都是行政處罰行政處罰就是剛剛我們副秘書長講的我給你限制你的使用給你剝奪你的使用權這些都用行政處罰的方式而不是用刑法我認為這個很重要"},{"start":6830.967,"end":6857.99,"text":"因為新法部分已經定在各個各培法規裡面了你何必再定呢那麼當然科技政法也不要定在那裡面還有如何賠償 不要在裡面國培 日本有國培喔 不要啦 不要啦假如通通加進去裡面的話恐怕越定越亂你沒有辦法抓一個主軸我認為主軸應該就是在如何控制人頭"},{"start":6859.229,"end":6861.15,"text":"謝謝鄭教授的發言 接下來有請黃總召國昌發言"},{"start":6900.957,"end":6917.086,"text":"首先我非常感謝這麼多的專家學者來針對本委員會針對國人痛恨詐騙的問題來提供寶貴的意見我相信今天各位專家學者針對提綱所提出來的一些看法"},{"start":6917.586,"end":6938.832,"text":"都可以成為博物委會接下來修正相關法令的時候重要的參考那我自己是大概有四個面向是不斷在思考的問題那也想藉由這個機會來救教各位專家學者第一個是事前管制的成效與作為等到詐騙發生了以後其實一切都太晚了"},{"start":6939.332,"end":6967.793,"text":"不管是後來的刑事追溯或者是財產能夠不乏所得能夠追回來在實務上都面臨相當大的困難第二個部分是科技偵查的必要與規範第三個部分是有效打詐的量能與資源最後一個是刑事制裁的陰暴跟預防在這四個主題上面其實國人一直看到的是我們的行政部門投入大量的資源不管是成立了打詐辦公室"},{"start":6968.553,"end":6985.183,"text":"那還是有新的打詐的綱領覺得大家在意的不是這些大官的剪綵大家在意的是在檢討剪綵完以後具體的作為到底是什麼那只不過說最近這段時間這兩年大家看詐騙的數字"},{"start":6986.744,"end":7013.298,"text":"不管是案件一路的攀升還是詐欺財損的金額不斷的增加這個都是整個社會付出的慘痛的代價每一個受害的民眾我接觸到非常多受到詐騙的被害人每一個被害人背後就是一個家庭當一個人被詐騙就是一整個家庭全部都被拖垮了已經形成越來越嚴重的社會問題"},{"start":7014.358,"end":7034.193,"text":"那當然在目前的狀況下對我們的檢察機關所造成的挑戰跟負擔也是相當的可怕因為對我們的檢察機關來講當詐騙案件不斷的攀升其他類型犯罪的數字沒有降低的時候檢查的人力到底要怎麼分配"},{"start":7035.214,"end":7063.528,"text":"你調右隊的檢察官去偵辦詐騙的案件那其他的殺人的組織犯罪的搶奪強盜的毒品的那這些案件怎麼樣來去應付犯罪所需要偵查能量所以對於整個檢查體系的挑戰已經到了非常嚴峻的程度了也正是因為這個樣子基層檢察官團體他們在去年的時候才會開了一個研討會"},{"start":7064.588,"end":7091.976,"text":"那當然這位檢察官他們可以說是恨鐵不成鋼坎坷之言說打詐國家隊1.5已經是國家級的詐騙那當然這樣子的形容聽在爪位權力的人手上絕對是不舒服的但是他反映出了第一線基層的同仁他們最沉痛的呼聲也正是因為這個樣子在去年的時候他們針對一個最基本的概念當你要打詐"},{"start":7092.816,"end":7110.058,"text":"那你第一個要有效的打詐就要先處理詐騙的犯罪工具所以從個資到人頭帳戶到電信號碼這些事情他們都希望能夠強化前端的行政監理強化前端的行政監理"},{"start":7110.959,"end":7127.11,"text":"避免讓這一些其實已經具有高度屬人性的犯罪工具什麼叫做具有高度屬人性的犯罪工具我們現在大家手上幾乎每一個人都有一支手機大部分正常的人也就一支手機那支手機我們去辦號碼的時候是要開雙證件"},{"start":7131.073,"end":7153.194,"text":"審核非常嚴格如果手機裡面有你所有的個資甚至有一些電子支付的工具全部都在手機裡那第二個部分是銀行的帳號當手機跟銀行帳號在21世紀的生活當中已經具有高度屬人性的事情的時候這些詐騙集團如何大量的取得大量的取得手機門號"},{"start":7154.375,"end":7181.751,"text":"如何大量的取得人和賬戶這個就會挑戰行政監理他實際上面的效果那因此在去年當檢察官團體提出了這麼沉痛的呼籲跟具體的建議以後也看起來我們的行政部門終於開始動起來了那只不過說動起來以後最後實際上面的成效是怎麼樣有待檢驗我為什麼這樣子說呢大概在"},{"start":7183.77,"end":7212.549,"text":"這個禮拜我們NCC的主委針對這件事情交換了意見問大家期待的是什麼大家期待的是譬如像第二類電信你不能讓門號這麼腐爛到處亂發甚至有企業社成立了人頭公司大量的第二類電信的帳號可以這樣子轉售非常的腐爛大家希望他做好事前的管制但是那個NCC我看到荒謬的狀況那天跟他交換意見是"},{"start":7214.854,"end":7217.643,"text":"檢察官已經查到了而且已經貞節起訴了"},{"start":7219.517,"end":7247.291,"text":"然後我說那針對這些第二類被查到第二類徵信的業者那請問NCC採取了什麼措施他們說他們現在正在進行行政調查當中其實說老實講我那天聽陳耀祥這樣講我一定有快要休克大家期待的是你前端就要做好了結果你前端沒有做好是檢察官幫你找出來犯罪事實都調查完了也起訴了然後請問你現在NCC要有怎麼作為他說我現在正在進行行政調查"},{"start":7248.251,"end":7265.937,"text":"那個已經lag非常非常久了前端沒有發生管制的效果到後端的時候結果等到人家起訴NCC還在進行行政調查這到底是一個什麼荒謬的現狀這也是為什麼這麼多基層的檢察官累到爆肝的基層檢察官他們對於現狀這麼不滿"},{"start":7268.078,"end":7287.571,"text":"對不起啊 因為時間的關係所以我接下來會講得非常的快第二個重要的科技偵查的必要性我相信第一線辦案的檢警大家心裡都非常有感但是當這件事情是檢警他們辦案所需要的時候但我們就因為沒有法律的授權使得"},{"start":7288.451,"end":7302.497,"text":"這一個偵辦犯罪的必要手段竟然可以讓第一線的檢體自己誤觸法網甚至所收集到的證據在法庭上被認為沒有證據能力到最後白忙一場現在最關鍵的問題就是說"},{"start":7304.758,"end":7329.195,"text":"針對有關於這些科技偵查所得證據的證據能力我們到底是要回到刑事訴訟法裡面做一般性的規定還是在科技偵查法裡面做一個特別法的規定那我個人是絕對反對只把這些科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面因為你如果把科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面會形成一個非常荒謬的狀況"},{"start":7331.54,"end":7345.845,"text":"偵辦電信詐欺的時候可以用GPS可以用M化車可以用各式各樣科技偵查手段但是辦國安案件的時候就不行了辦組織犯罪的時候就不行了辦毒品案件的時候就不行了所以我"},{"start":7347.478,"end":7375.789,"text":"對於詐欺專法有沒有制定的必要性大家可以討論但是科技偵查的手段這件事情在符合正當法律程序必要的時候採取法官保留原則之下我認為應該要有一個具有比較普遍性通則適用性的規範方式放在刑事訴訟法還是要立一個特別法立法的形式我們大家通通都可以討論最後一個主席最後只用30秒就好了就是讓"},{"start":7377.165,"end":7401.098,"text":"第一線的警察也好調查員也好大家都覺得非常痛苦的事情他們投入大量的資源投入了大量的資源好不容易破獲了好不容易抓到人了他詐欺的對象也很多他所造成的時害也很高但是到最後法院端的時候輕輕的判完刑就放人了"},{"start":7404.827,"end":7431.514,"text":"那這個是在台版柬埔寨裡面的首腦藍道當他被抓的時候我去看他似乎不像是出犯我把過去的判決系統全部調完了以後發現31個加重詐欺罪你如果看法定本刑刑法339條之下他犯了31個結果最後的結論我們用非法律人的角度來講叫做不用坐牢"},{"start":7432.871,"end":7456.212,"text":"當非法律人來問法律人的時候為什麼這樣可以不用坐牢我們要非常耗費唇舌的去解釋第一個先想像淨核他是以組織犯罪來加重詐欺組織犯罪的罪名被想像淨核掉了所以我們只用加重詐欺加重詐欺是一年以上7年以下那但是法官認為他嫌可免訴所以判6個月"},{"start":7457.313,"end":7477.57,"text":"那一個詐欺判6個月11個詐欺宣告刑事6年6個月結果我們還有一個訴罪併罰的制度一個訴罪併罰以後馬上急遽縮減成剩10個月最後10個月還可以一服牢獄那些非法律人聽完法律人解釋完了以後即使他"},{"start":7479.315,"end":7499.948,"text":"理解原來你們是這樣子玩的玩到最後出來的結果我必須要老實的講違反人民一般的法感情他是31個架動詐欺罪前面的一個10個月一服牢役後面的那個更誇張宣告刑已經21年了最後法官給他兩年還什麼緩刑"},{"start":7504.128,"end":7530.126,"text":"三次大量詐欺罪在我國的法律系統當中最後的結論是一天的牢都不用做今天我們對於刑法知道他有最後手段性最後他有殘酷性所有上過大一刑法的法律學生都知道但我們回到他本身的制度功能不管你採取的是硬暴論一般預防特別預防"},{"start":7531.414,"end":7555.971,"text":"我們必須要非常謙卑的反省法律人必須要非常謙卑的反省包括我個人在裡面這樣的結果到底達到了什麼樣子的功能這樣的結果到底保護了誰如果我們讓這樣子的現狀繼續繼續下去的話只會造成越來越多人受害人民對司法的信任也會以上 謝謝謝謝黃總召"},{"start":7559.987,"end":7580.481,"text":"講到最後這個案例真的讓社會大眾有非常的驚訝好那接下來我們就有請吳耀宗教授進行發言請稍後在莊瑞雄委員發言完畢後呢我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":7590.007,"end":7602.418,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位貴賓大家好其實今天的議題涉及的面向非常廣剛剛前面已經有好幾個委員講到的問題"},{"start":7608.263,"end":7609.004,"text":"黃國昌委員 鄭善逸 鄭老師"},{"start":7630.897,"end":7631.098,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7650.94,"end":7670.324,"text":"我也非常贊同就是應該去處理的目標是在電信管理法我個人反而不太贊成在這個組織犯罪防制條例因為就體力上來講其實是他不是組織犯罪的問題因為其實也有可能有個體問題我覺得就事務的本質來講應該是跟他比較相近好那"},{"start":7678.99,"end":7684.389,"text":"有開啊好那其實我剛剛講說這個面向其實非常廣齁那我簡單review一下"},{"start":7686.088,"end":7713.07,"text":"這所謂打極詐欺行動案1.5版到底有沒有效呢老實講我如果沒有去問別人我也不確定有沒有效那剛好因為我在警大教書我上學期剛好講了一學期的詐騙犯罪的問題所以我有好幾個學生來自刑事局所以這些資訊是他們跟我講的所以我們這裡有刑事局的這個長官我想也許我講的還不夠全面不夠深入不過基本上比如說"},{"start":7714.911,"end":7725.118,"text":"Meta、Line這些所謂綠色通道、藍色通道還有Google打的還有依依政府專屬的平台他們跟我講說沒什麼用了為什麼沒什麼用我等一下會稍微講一下"},{"start":7729.636,"end":7738.066,"text":"好 那他覺得有效打詐 就剛剛那個劉副院長也講到齁比如境外篡改來電規則的擴大管制還有攔阻國際詐騙電話白名單還有要求檢訊大公司審核檢訊內容說這個有效"},{"start":7745.575,"end":7745.976,"text":"那至於 呃"},{"start":7761.172,"end":7790.341,"text":"各部會相關法令所謂打詐無法我覺得不夠就是其實在呼應剛剛那個林委員 我也認為電信管理法有待修正人頭門號的氾濫就是電信管理法根本沒有作用根本沒有作用 剛剛那個黃委員還有都提到我們對這件事是沒有管制的其實我們不知道為什麼不管 殊難想像好那再來呢 這個虛擬資產平台比如我們講說虛擬貨幣啦其實管制平台根本"},{"start":7791.101,"end":7819.106,"text":"沒什麼用 為什麼因為我聽說詐騙集團自己都設平台了有一家叫廢風他自己就是詐騙集團了所以而且現在虛擬貨幣他可以有個人所以我覺得當然技術上怎麼做我不知道但是我認為虛擬貨幣要直接納管直接納管好 那科技偵查當然大家都知道科技偵查保障法現在還在行政院還沒有出門所以我想很多科技手段根本現在都是違法的"},{"start":7820.995,"end":7847.042,"text":"另外因為我上禮拜有參加那個民眾黨他們辦的也是打詐的公聽會那裡面有很多議題我想也是打詐相關的我就簡略一下因為這上面資料就是那個網路銀行就是我們對於交易場的帳戶銀行的管控很不好了包含說這個帳戶已經被停用了停用之後其實當然他一定有匯資金來的人的資訊資料"},{"start":7848.755,"end":7875.801,"text":"你可以去告知對方說你會到詐騙機團的帳戶了還有第三方支付的問題那人道問號其實剛剛都有提到那當然個資外洩 個資外洩也是一個大問題啦因為為什麼人家可以掌握那個資外洩是普遍兩方面一個就是什麼 內鬼就像很多公司或者政府機關裡面的人他把資料拿出去賣了比如說之前衛福部也是有人這樣做那駭客侵辱"},{"start":7876.781,"end":7878.082,"text":"詐騙廣告到處衝刺﹑下架不易"},{"start":7898.388,"end":7920.027,"text":"不用個人資料就可以去用就用的人他不用提供那個資料跟我們個人的申請那個什麼那個門號完全不一樣那我就不知道為什麼會對這些人這個什麼大開方便之門那因為那個門號他有很多他有一些特徵隱匿性易取得性易替換性還有短期使用所以當然造成偵查上的斷點"},{"start":7922.062,"end":7923.063,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法院第1會議"},{"start":7936.96,"end":7937.62,"text":"簡訊﹚發送釣魚簡訊﹚最後水防彰款轉匯﹚"},{"start":7962.998,"end":7963.659,"text":"人頭門號管理在條例上看不出來"},{"start":7982.796,"end":7983.537,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8001.059,"end":8018.99,"text":"受理、申辦、電信服務、風險管理、機制、指引這指引沒有任何規範效力只是指導而已 企業不照這麼做他裡面精神說自主啦規勸啦 不然就是跟他解約啦 沒收押金啦"},{"start":8019.95,"end":8046.262,"text":"我想這種力道有用就好了所以我覺得這質疑完全沒有用那剛剛鄭老師他在對不起這個人頭門號目前在實務上其實能夠處罰也很有限有的實務上做法不一有時候是詐欺幫助詐欺罪幫助案洗錢罪幫助案但是也有無罪那對於創設人頭門號目前其實沒有看到相關判決但是我猜可能也許也可以用偽造文書"},{"start":8047.458,"end":8073.499,"text":"那剛剛鄭老師其實在他的書面資料裡面他有講到日本行動不正利用防制法那日本當然也遇到這個問題他在2005年的時候就訂立這個然後在2008年把信訪納管那我覺得日本這東西呢這個什麼我想剛剛像林志偉老師他有提到說其實日本的戰爭問題也很嚴重我想這是全球性問題所以他們要求電信業者要實名制"},{"start":8075.361,"end":8083.583,"text":"實名之後對象當然治安人那如果法人公司呢就要確認他事務所所在地而且呢在"},{"start":8085.694,"end":8104.801,"text":"轉讓行動電話的時候等等他必須要求他去做查核那如果違反當然就會處罰而且是刑罰的制裁那還有針對企業對象就是就申請這個門號的人他也有要求你如果用人頭也會處刑罰包括手機的轉讓SIM卡的轉讓這個其實他也有規範"},{"start":8114.434,"end":8141.256,"text":"那這個因為剩下一分多我就直接講到這個各位在講在那個會議資料裡面有我不講了齁我講一下詐騙廣告到處充斥齁這是昨天我還看到了齁謝金鵝還用被閃褲在詐騙謝金鵝已經講那都跟我無關喔我就不知道為什麼YouTube還讓他出來啦齁你看我因為證明說我是昨天看的齁3月13號下午一點多然後他就這樣投出"},{"start":8143.463,"end":8147.044,"text":"網路通訊服務公司復取法律責任、法律義務LINE下架最麻煩"},{"start":8167.133,"end":8185.014,"text":"前傳的保保但是下降很困難比如說他民眾報案以後他要做筆錄提供ID而且要在上面按檢舉兩個都具備了那如果是廣告連結詐騙呢要提供廣告上的這個網址還有畫面還有截圖而且只能跟刑事局報案其他機關不行他不接受而且要匯報"},{"start":8186.57,"end":8186.75,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8205.947,"end":8230.185,"text":"好 那最後我要跟各位講前兩天英國召開全球這個詐騙會議啦我覺得它裡面講到很多觀點第一個 要跨部會 要公私協力我想打詐目前就這樣做你靠後端的警察檢警法院會累死大家所以源頭的管理我覺得重一切只有管理源頭 斷源頭才有效其實你後面講的那些 剛剛黃委員提到"},{"start":8230.945,"end":8232.826,"text":"網路平台治理有問題網路通訊要審核廣告"},{"start":8252.52,"end":8252.54,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8282.8,"end":8309.004,"text":"好 謝謝吳教授的發言剛剛吳教授特別提到了對於網路平台業者要求我們要求他下架詐騙廣告現在的程序非常繁瑣而且會造成特定機關的一個業務負擔那當然在這裡也聽到有一些質疑就是說如果各大網路平台社群軟體這些公司Meta等等他們可以對網路上他們自己用戶的政治言論進行審查"},{"start":8310.365,"end":8310.686,"text":"郭重信總經理發言"},{"start":8340.887,"end":8355.992,"text":"蔣委、各位長官、委員、大家早很榮幸能參加這個會議因為我是一個禮拜...三個禮拜我被邀請那我當時也沒有接受我是說我能幫上...我很樂意因為這是公益"},{"start":8356.972,"end":8378.049,"text":"如果說我沒有幫忙我就不願意來後來我禮拜一答應來當然我就稍微了解一下剛剛有幾個問題我先聽到了先講一下就是我們如何能增加詐騙集團的成本比如說其實大家問題都把它點出來了問題在ISPA者"},{"start":8380.267,"end":8396.833,"text":"等下我後面再講所以比如說你IPS如果能把詐騙的IP跟他的那個自製意義的網你讓他多跳幾次他的成本增加你看他還會不會騙這是第一個再來就是說我緊跟著我跟預計我們提報大綱那個討論提綱來說明一下"},{"start":8401.596,"end":8401.896,"text":"國際實施國際來話阻攔及警示"},{"start":8415.359,"end":8439.938,"text":"降最多的是886那這886它為什麼能降得這麼快問題是電信業者的配合而且也是電信業者才知道怎麼樣來阻詐所以你看這個數據啊大量下降下來所以我們的問題就知道了我們應該賦予電信業者ISP業者很多的責任在這裡等一下我後面有講到我們這個是分成三階段這些"},{"start":8440.939,"end":8456.523,"text":"亂言 再加上這些平台 平台有政府的 有這些SP業者 電信業者 電商等等等等這些都是那最後 我們是受害者的 是使用者所以我們大概把它這個分成三個層面來探討問題啦所以這個電信業者 我們從剛剛這個看從886可以從1642萬通降到84萬那我問你 IP呢 網址呢"},{"start":8467.665,"end":8494.285,"text":"沒有所以這裡面我們就可以要求ISPA者去做很多的事情如果這個流量這個是大量源頭的下降的快速的技術是在這個地方那在這裡跟各位報告一下那第二個就是我要說明的就是那個銀行金融機構KYC他去年那個12年主詐8170件主詐金額是54.9"},{"start":8496.306,"end":8496.586,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":8515.344,"end":8536.376,"text":"這個有效的就是這個銀行或金融企業這邊主詐那主詐呢就是應該我們第一我們主詐的要提升他們的效力就教育信念也是一個很重要新的詐騙手法應該要第一天第二天就要到每一個前線的那個哨兵手上這個是我這樣子來那再來就是要售錢讓他們"},{"start":8537.958,"end":8539.3,"text":"銀行業者主詐與刑事警察主詐有沒有獎勵"},{"start":8553.683,"end":8570.463,"text":"防制人頭的詐騙90%下降是有效的所以這個我們應該繼續鼓勵繼續那總結他就是很簡單他就多了一些限制因素所以如果我們這些限制因素你要增加不應該"},{"start":8572.164,"end":8573.145,"text":"做得不好的地方,像平台網路廣告下架"},{"start":8595.424,"end":8610.204,"text":"平台網路廣告下架這個績效很差網路廣告那麼多為什麼下架才那麼少那我可以舉兩個例子舉兩個例子是什麼呢美國的那個ROBOT CODE就是"},{"start":8612.2,"end":8639.974,"text":"他知道誰在ROBOT CODE但是他不管他所以美國正起來就毛起來罰他他消極不復者為什麼因為你ROBOT CODE我有電話費可收嘛我有盈利嘛所以我就不願意去阻攬這件事情那我不願意去阻攬這件事情呢好美國就毛起來罰所以罰到最後讓罰款大於電信費電信業者乖乖的把它砍掉"},{"start":8641.041,"end":8660.571,"text":"第一項要乖乖的把它砍掉這個是 第二個就是美國政府對金融機構他有一個規定規定什麼呢你對客戶聯繫 以客戶聯繫必須留下保留完整的紀錄結果有十幾家銀行他不理美國政府他用FastAPP來跟客戶來聯繫客戶來聯繫的話美國政府24個月對十幾家銀行總共罰了3億美金問題沒了"},{"start":8669.895,"end":8690.913,"text":"也就是說我剛剛談到的是我們這些問題裡面的源頭亂言跟受害者中間整個平台有政府有如果你這個地方我們對那些業者我的那個剛剛我原先不知道亂言在哪裡原來是第二類我們是一個善良的老百姓我們善良的老百姓我們是申請門號要雙證件三證件"},{"start":8692.955,"end":8701.975,"text":"結果第二類第三類大放水所以我們的IP從來源到末端沒有辦法完全掌控那我們的那個"},{"start":8705.06,"end":8712.503,"text":"這個是我到後面再講,因為這個我想說依據我的程序來報才會比較密集再來就是我看到了防詐雷達或者是檢訊防詐雷達有一點點效,這科技的效用只要有一點點我們就應該做"},{"start":8726.38,"end":8750.185,"text":"能足足百分之十、百分之二十我們都應該做那簡信這個關鍵字這個也有效這個繼續做但是我認為有一個就是比如說我們那個防詐APP政府應該開花你以前有Who's Call就告訴我這是詐騙集團來電話我就會不理他那如果說你這個是海外來的我就不理他你做二類轉一類從"},{"start":8751.865,"end":8775.62,"text":"從那個一類到二類到國外再從二類轉一類回來我根本就直接那個我有這個防詐APP的話我就直接就掛斷了就不理他了嘛所以這個是大概我認為就是說在成效上還要再加強的部分我再稍微說明一下至於哪些需要強化的部分我大概是從認識敵人瞭解問題找出問題面對問題解決問題這個方向來講首先我們要認識"},{"start":8780.123,"end":8780.143,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8806.414,"end":8807.415,"text":"網路業者﹑電信業者﹑網路業者﹑"},{"start":8831.4,"end":8850.716,"text":"所以我們的敵人是這樣子他組成的這個成員那他的詐騙這個劇情都是有前述這些專家人員利用人性的漏點包括你恐懼你怕違法等等所以有檢察官有說舅舅你請救我我前兩天才接到舅舅我是某某的我說你叫什麼名字掛斷了"},{"start":8852.197,"end":8872.455,"text":"所以他都利用人性弱點 這個劇情都是經過推演的喔他們也不是說你這樣的推演然後有問題他才那個齁所以我們這個簡訊大概就是這樣所以我們的敵人是一個非常高科技的一個手法你不要把他當成他是很low的齁"},{"start":8873.596,"end":8873.816,"text":"主要的問題有三簡信"},{"start":8899.845,"end":8915.299,"text":"詐騙簡訊、釣魚簡訊都如牛毛平台、廣告、下架、牛部化、還有輕罪化這剛剛都已經有講到了結束了那我們找出問題剛剛我已經講到了就是內容加害者這個平台我們大概是這樣子"},{"start":8922.259,"end":8947.856,"text":"我直接講到解決問題好啦因為資料請參閱啦因為我第一個我們科技偵查的速度要這個一定要開放齁你不要用到講各自這個一定要把它開放你不開放啦這個它的受害啊受限啦就我們的敵人已經那麼強大結果我們自己不用條繩子把我們自己這些檢調單位把它綁起來因為無法施展武功齁"},{"start":8948.897,"end":8977.194,"text":"再來就是我們所有的東西啊因為我們受騙都是那些硬體的電信硬體那些硬體很死很很舊比如中華電信那些都是抵不過那個他那個對犯罪的那些他都直接擺PASS所以這個以硬體為主軟體為輔那目標是要護端點斷金流斬源頭護端點就是剛我講的像我們如果有"},{"start":8978.812,"end":9005.093,"text":"報警的協助系統的話我這樣子拿國際合作然後好這個才真正的源頭就DNS的功能要精進精進的東西把DNS的功能精進到有管理有控制有比對有認證有查詢甚至於我可以找到他的歸屬注意機跟實體位置這個我想這個那個秘書長他聽的應該很知道在IP數位"},{"start":9006.324,"end":9031.634,"text":"以究責實體強綁定且雙證件認定這個就可以找到我們IP的位置那建立一個反詐情緒庫偵查工具工具庫還有就是AI的資料庫擬出這些反制的一些目標比如說我們平常就這些資料庫建好我就去海撈比如說都是白天call in比call out那個多再來是通話時間"},{"start":9034.284,"end":9057.869,"text":"兩極要嘛就講話講很久要嘛講很短講很久就釣魚釣到了講很短就騙不到的還有就是這個電話筒長時間逮逮圖握住的而且是在白天為什麼因為我晚上詐騙會騷擾到你嘛你一定不會理我嘛再來就DNS你裡面的URL你一個"},{"start":9059.585,"end":9088.193,"text":"一個IP有多個URL或一個URL有多個IP還有我們IP跟DNS連線要錢解析這些東西內這些上述問題都是我們那個誰最清楚ISP業者最清楚服務你不能只賺錢不負責任你造成的垃圾錢沒負擔政府只要比較另外就是政府比較金融機關弄一個金管會來管理這些金融的那我們這些ISP業者有沒有人在管"},{"start":9089.073,"end":9089.314,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9104.446,"end":9105.806,"text":"謝謝郭總經理 接下來有請莊委員瑞雄"},{"start":9140.728,"end":9165.242,"text":"謝謝趙偉我們在場所有這麼多的學者專家各位好朋友我剛很用心的去聆聽各位的寶貴的一個意見但是我一直會覺得說一個公聽會完以後我們到底要達到什麼樣的一個目的有沒有辦法達到這樣的一個目的我一直都認為說我們其實現在整個法制是夠的"},{"start":9166.71,"end":9190.638,"text":"法律是夠的那重點是說有時候你說基層的檢警檢察官起訴了那起訴完以後那你碰到法官他對詐欺犯他的評價到底是什麼那有時候如果說你又他沒有被騙過的或者他認為這個是惡性這很抽象如果是把他輕判那我相信這個實在是很難去遏制"},{"start":9196.203,"end":9201.209,"text":"我們現在要做一個大家都很清楚的回想,以前的時代,因為大陸的山頂,比較上四季的,大家不怕雨,在外面走,去山頂拿水果,吃吃就飽,回家睡覺"},{"start":9214.805,"end":9214.825,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9234.571,"end":9248.666,"text":"為了搶錢然後到最後用那樣來一個方式發展到現在大家聰明了用騙的也不用去搶銀行了行責也不用那麼重了那現在我們為什麼在先進國家裡面我們碰到很大的一個問題就是管轄權的問題我們這個整個台灣我們這個國際上的一個處境讓我們很困難"},{"start":9257.266,"end":9263.308,"text":"我剛聽了那個委員一直講說 啊是不是啊 那個詐騙人要怎麼追回 你要怎麼追回有時候你很偵查 黃社長也在這 有時候你要偵查 人家不一定要跟你配合啊尤其是我們在先進國家裡面 我們為什麼會變這麼嚴重"},{"start":9275.592,"end":9290.197,"text":"每一個先進國家詐騙都很多啦這台灣就特別嚴重我們的國際地位的問題啊為什麼很多人要跑到中國去為什麼很多人要跑到東南亞去就很簡單啦我就讓你政府拿我沒辦法啊我犯就哪怕被你追到以後"},{"start":9290.817,"end":9299.828,"text":"抓到以後你要把那個錢追回來我看都非常不容易啊所以啊 司法的互助啊這部份喔 法務部部長 黃市長 你知道在想想辦法啦我們政府這個部分如果司法互助的部分沒有跟其他的國家再多簽幾個"},{"start":9307.637,"end":9308.037,"text":"公聽會８詐欺犯罪防制立法院第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":9328.326,"end":9328.927,"text":"現代社會已經走入教育型所以我也只能從這個地方幾個部分"},{"start":9349.545,"end":9349.985,"text":"本國籍或外國籍人士"},{"start":9366.44,"end":9370.562,"text":"可以把它降低下來就很夠了那所以呢最近大家看到的就是移民的部分移工的部分不管是婚姻的移民的拘留代辦詐騙這也是還有啊我們整個也是很多被收取高額的代辦費其實很多很多那個因為都是因為法規不熟悉的問題那這些在社會上也一直在發生那像很多人在社群裡面去做一個聯繫然後利用移工對這個整個親友的思念跟關心"},{"start":9396.115,"end":9400.979,"text":"發出偽造：求救的訊息每天都會上當所以這些我反而會覺得說我們檢教機關也該多用點心了人頭賬戶這個部分剛剛大家有提到也不要忘記人頭賬戶你只要看東南亞漁工去台灣100萬萬"},{"start":9419.995,"end":9436.606,"text":"立法院這一部分其實大部分都是黑素我們目前針對詐騙的統計調查裡面我看我們現在好像也沒有納入東南亞這個部分你們也無從去把它做一個納入這個移工的一個族群所以這個部分我認為政府既然來到我們這個地方那一塊會很大的問題那我想"},{"start":9447.659,"end":9460.726,"text":"很多政府可以去做的部分 我們很輕易可以做 但是沒有做好的啦比如警政署你也在這 衛務部你也在這 勞動部你也在這你只要針對這塊 你都會在那裡廣告啊你那個就是虛硬故事而已嘛 在我看來就是虛硬故事而已嘛 為什麼你這個泰國人 你不就要讓人看得懂的語言"},{"start":9473.829,"end":9479.264,"text":"你針對東南亞的這些移工的你要用他們懂的語言你要用我們的語言在那邊講他們哪會聽得懂"},{"start":9482.072,"end":9482.172,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":9508.138,"end":9517.161,"text":"我們確實是缺乏快速跟簡易舉報的APP或者一個網頁1955跟1656先作為舉報的一個機制而已那怎麼樣去確保他們個人的一個資訊的隱私或者保護這個部分讓他們可以快速來做一個舉報我認為我們也該設計讓他們提供他們一個管道所以我今天就"},{"start":9533.464,"end":9550.313,"text":"拉哩拉扎的這樣子聽完各位的我很怕說這個公聽會完以後啊大家各言而治以後又沒有達到真正的一個目的看到我們那個1.5版本那個被批評為說國家最大是一個國家最大的一個詐騙我都為你們而暴驅啦我講一句實在啦但問題就是說確實是氾濫啦確實是這麼多啊"},{"start":9558.837,"end":9558.997,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":9580.029,"end":9580.109,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9604.505,"end":9609.627,"text":"他哪會讓你這麼容易他會要求你這個國家全部都給他凍結你如果中邪當然我們要求他理都不理我們所以這個司法付諸的部分我覺得那個黃市長你們有責任在整個國家加強去跟其他國家不管用什麼樣的一個方式加強去把它建立起來那對我們國人對你們的期待要不然你們要什麼日本人今天都給你們擠氣了"},{"start":9632.421,"end":9632.801,"text":"謝謝專委員 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":9660.785,"end":9663.258,"text":"休息後我們繼續請蔡前院長發言"},{"start":10014.353,"end":10014.793,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10039.838,"end":10045.398,"text":"好我們繼續開會那接下來有請蔡院長發言請"},{"start":10061.838,"end":10071.307,"text":"主席還有在座的委員政府官員還有各位學者專家大家好首先非常感謝委員會邀請我這個已經退休的司法人員來這邊還有機會可以表達對這個重要議題的意見那我以下呢就僅就是依照我們委員會列的這個討論提綱依序來表達我個人的意見"},{"start":10086.04,"end":10095.148,"text":"第一個提綱關於是不是要原定打詐專法的問題剛才已經有非常多的專家都有表達意見許多專家有贊成的我聽起來比較多我個人對這個部分我想表達一點我的看法"},{"start":10108.178,"end":10113.841,"text":"行政院頒的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版從去年6月頒訂執行到現在才8個月左右還不到一年"},{"start":10122.765,"end":10125.327,"text":"而且在那個同時,行政院為了強化打擊這個詐騙也同時修訂了打詐五法所謂的打詐五法是刑法、洗錢防治法、證券投資信託及顧問法還有個人資料保護法跟人口販運防治法這幾個法也才公布施行8個月左右"},{"start":10146.764,"end":10171.061,"text":"也就是說這個新的行動綱領跟新的法都實施還不到一年那它的成效到底如何其實我今天來開會才在桌上看到各政府機關的一些書面報告但是呢最新的關於這個新的這個執行績效不是非常具體所以呢我是認為說應該還要再檢視這個行動綱領跟上面的這個打詐無法的執行成效"},{"start":10177.065,"end":10188.991,"text":"來檢討它有沒有落實﹚或者是有沒有什麼執行院的缺失﹚而不是馬上就說要再修法﹚或者是另外訂一個專法﹚因為訂一個專法前提是我們要知道我們要補強什麼﹚就是我們去年剛修的法律還有漏洞嗎﹚或者是還有不足之處嗎﹚那有了這個前提我們才能去討論說我們現在要修專法﹚然後專法呢﹚要有哪一些補強的方向﹚"},{"start":10205.76,"end":10215.448,"text":"所謂的打詐無法 剛才講的以外 去年也同時修訂了組織犯罪防制條例 為了柬埔寨把一些台灣人弄到柬埔寨具"},{"start":10221.593,"end":10223.214,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10238.523,"end":10241.685,"text":"因此根據上面的各個專法﹐不但是出借或買賣人頭賬戶﹐網路投資詐騙廣告的限制及禁止﹐都已經有了明文的規定﹐而且還有加重罰則﹐在刑法已經徵定了加重妨礙自由及加重詐欺罪﹐同時也修正了各自法﹐"},{"start":10263.556,"end":10268.718,"text":"那去年修的各支法又新設了一個個人資料保護委員會將來會由這個委員會來專責主管這個各支保護的政策以及執行所以呢從以上的這一些立法的內容來看那不管是從這個行動綱領1.5的這個版本從行政面或者是刑事處罰面呢我都認為說"},{"start":10288.965,"end":10303.373,"text":"基本上已經有建立必要的法制規範所以我滿認同剛才莊委員所講的就是法制面的部分我覺得目前就是並沒有明顯的缺漏那如果有還必須要再仔細的檢討才行"},{"start":10305.595,"end":10319.209,"text":"現在必須要觀察的就是說執行面有沒有落實有沒有自愛難行之處我目前因為看不出在法制面有哪一些必須要再補強的地方所以我個人目前對於現在這個時間點要訂定專法我是持比較保留的態度而且"},{"start":10326.195,"end":10338.122,"text":"以我過去是一個檢察官的立場因為立法院除了剛才的這些基本的法以外如果在另外長出一個專法將來恐怕是跌闖架務而且會造成執法人執法機關在適用法律的困難與混淆那再來呢剛才有幾位不管是委員或者是專家都有提到兩型的問題"},{"start":10353.691,"end":10367.019,"text":"這也牽涉到說我們訂定專法的目的是不是也是為了要再提高相關的詐欺犯罪的刑度那如果是這樣的話呢那我就比較質疑這是不是對症下藥的良策"},{"start":10368.6,"end":10396.877,"text":"高檢署才在上個月 今年的2月1號才發布一個新聞稿這個新聞稿特別指出說詐欺案件外界典有批評是刑度過輕所以高檢署為了要促進妥適良行已經在去年年底還有今年年初陸續召開多次的會議那也就是組成良行小組來彙整一二審檢察官的意見那同時也邀集了"},{"start":10397.958,"end":10413.836,"text":"就是相關的警察機關調查局來討論新的良形因子希望能夠加強良形的就是收集資料那能夠在案件徵結的時候妥適求刑那也希望能夠讓法院妥適良形"},{"start":10414.797,"end":10416.879,"text":"有以上高檢署發布的新聞資料,也可以了解目前有關於網路電信詐騙的刑罰並沒有過輕的狀況而是法院良心有可能部分沒有辦法符合社會的期待"},{"start":10431.349,"end":10450.229,"text":"所以如果說修法的目的是為了要提高刑督那我認為這也不是解決問題的方法那詐騙犯罪不但要抓得到還要判得重而且要關得到才能夠發揮刑法的嚇阻效果那這個部分也是這個刑事司法執行面的問題而不是立法面的問題"},{"start":10452.804,"end":10480.215,"text":"有關於社群平臺有沒有主動協助下架詐騙廣告的責任我看去年5月底修正通過的《證券投資信託及顧問法》已經有新增一個條文70條之一其中第二項已經有明文規定就是網際網路平臺的提供者還有網際網路應用服務"},{"start":10481.115,"end":10497.566,"text":"提供者等等這些就是網路傳播媒體業者不得刊登或播送詐騙廣告那如果刊登或播送以後才知道的呢那應該要主動或是受到司法警察機關的通知在期限內移除"},{"start":10498.467,"end":10501.03,"text":"限制瀏覽或停止播送等其他必要處置依照這個規定社群平台不但有事前審查投資廣告的責任也有主動或被動下架不法投資廣告的義務"},{"start":10516.894,"end":10542.448,"text":"那他若有違反那有就是高額的行政處裁法那如果他不改善還可以連續處罰所以我覺得這個在法制面也是有依據的那只是不知道說這個規定實施以來到底執行了成效怎麼樣恐怕也需要主管機關給大家一個比較就是說明確的執行成效報告才可以作為這個將來政策改善評估的基礎"},{"start":10543.749,"end":10548.314,"text":"金融機構及虛擬資產平台管制措施要不要改進?目前基層遇到困難據我瞭解目前基層檢察官對於網路電信詐騙案件氾濫"},{"start":10564.791,"end":10586.611,"text":"他們最大的抱怨不是什麼刑罰不足的問題而是網路交易的金融監理跟個資遭到洩漏以及濫用的問題那譬如說金融帳戶尤其是數位帳戶開戶很容易查核不實導致人頭帳戶氾濫第三方支付平台腐爛欠缺有效監管等等"},{"start":10587.432,"end":10602.299,"text":"那麼人頭帳戶的問題呢去年因為有修改洗錢防治法那第15條之一之二都可以規範但是因為這個法實施也不到一年了就是到底有沒有落實執行成效如何例如說警察呢"},{"start":10602.899,"end":10626.971,"text":"依照洗錢防治法對於人頭賬戶﹐發出警告的件數有多少?銀行對於遭到警告的這些人頭賬戶﹐他們在申請開戶有沒有拒絕﹐或者是更嚴格的查核措施?這個我都沒有辦法從現有的手邊資料了解所以這個部分必須要再做進一步的評估各自遭洩漏及濫用的問題﹐這也涉及到不同事業單位的"},{"start":10630.273,"end":10630.533,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整"},{"start":10651.957,"end":10656.578,"text":"那法務部剛剛在這個上個月底已經定班了一個重要的行政的規定就是關於這個人頭帳戶的暫停限制功能或經與關閉的管理辦法那如果根據這個辦法對於曾經提供人頭帳戶的高風險者可以進行全面的管制那新申請開戶必須要嚴加查核舊帳戶轉帳額度也會受到限制"},{"start":10677.725,"end":10682.169,"text":"讓詐團難以再向這些高風險的人索取使用新制裁剛剛實行沒有幾天3月1號才上路所以如果各金融機構能夠確實落實這個辦法的規定我相信從源頭解堵詐團來利用人頭賬戶"},{"start":10695.382,"end":10724.009,"text":"作為詐騙工具應該也可以發揮一定的成效那最後就是科技偵查的問題那我也支持說法務部過去幾年花很多時間研擬的科技偵查法草案建議就是大院可以儘速的進入審議雖然它一直有人權的爭議可是如果不進入審議的階段就沒有辦法進行治安跟人權的對話那我覺得希望就是說大院可以重視這件事情因為它是偵查的工具最重要的工具謝謝"},{"start":10726.442,"end":10731.637,"text":"感謝蔡前院長接下來由李怡光律師發言"},{"start":10740.531,"end":10769.951,"text":"主席各位先進大家好非常感謝委員會的邀請讓我能夠來這邊做把個人的潛見為各位做一個簡要的一個說明那首先針對今天的這個討論的這個提綱我個人是就是按照這提綱的這個順序來逐一加以說明第一個就是針對這個我們所謂的這個打詐的這個行動綱領1.5版執行到現在那對打詐是否有這個成效那我想這個是應該是有一定的成效"},{"start":10770.051,"end":10770.151,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10794.324,"end":10816.895,"text":"所以他不只是身上的錢被詐騙完,連賴以維生居住的房子都被設定抵押權了所以我想政府所做的對於人民的需求來講是永遠是不夠的啦是政府應該做的這個職責,應該要更加的努力那對於說打詐的方式我想今天大家都討論很多那我們政府在去年也提出了一個打詐的行動綱理1.5版"},{"start":10818.436,"end":10844.876,"text":"那我還特別有去看了一下 有大概76頁 非常多 各個部門都有提供他們的建議那我要想的是說 那為什麼這麼多優秀的部門 這麼多的菁英大家提出來的這個意見 那做出來之後 那怎麼效果都還沒有那麼顯著我想不是這個方法有問題 是執行有問題 是執行的問題我覺得今天打詐的問題 今天我們在一直在立法立法"},{"start":10845.316,"end":10845.456,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10864.964,"end":10865.224,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10882.437,"end":10902.423,"text":"對這綱頂的內容呢應該最主要是說倍多利分說起來看起來目前來講確實去執行打詐機關我認為說我們的政府沒有一個中央的一個組織機構沒有一個中央組織機構我認為說其實今天打詐要分兩個層面第一個中央要事權統一要有一個統一的機制"},{"start":10903.973,"end":10923.102,"text":"另外一個就是要去中心化是什麼打詐一定要去中心化也就是中央跟中央要有一個集中的事權的統一的組織統合各個部會各個部會集中所有力量才能夠去共同去打詐同樣另外一個問題是在於說打詐以外你要同時要去做的是什麼問責"},{"start":10924.883,"end":10933.848,"text":"問責你做不好才有問責的單位那你今天每個單位都負責每個人都有自己的業務那每個人做個人的業務那因為你現在所做打詐的業務都是"},{"start":10934.913,"end":10961.45,"text":"業外的工作都不是你本業的工作所以當然就沒有辦法去看出它的成效那如果有一個專責機構的話那就有問責的單位所以我個人認為說第一個中央要集中要有一個長設的一個專責的一個委員會來負責這個打詐的業務那第二個就是說真正在地方來看在執行上來講要去中心化去中心化也就是說今天打詐絕對不會是政府機關的事情"},{"start":10962.17,"end":10990.948,"text":"打詐其實應該就像垃圾分類一樣垃圾分類如果是所有的民眾都把垃圾丟到焚化爐丟到焚化爐之後才做分類我想大家都做到累死也做不完這個分類工作但是如果說打詐在做打詐各個方面的這個合作方面由公司合作由公民來合作的話那在最每一個每一個角落每一個人民都是一個打詐的一個守衛者"},{"start":10991.408,"end":10991.428,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11015.106,"end":11034.424,"text":"明示一個窩裡反條款以外我個人是建議說應該還另外一個設置一個檢舉的破案獎金檢舉破案獎金因為我們從詐欺的案件來看他基本上來講他們是一個計畫性智慧型的犯罪你要破獲他的首腦是非常不容易你只能透過窩裡反的方式才比較有可能抓到首謀"},{"start":11035.365,"end":11058.224,"text":"那現在我們的刑法大家一直在定就越定越重越定越重那請問一下像古人所講的明不畏死奈何以死畏之既然連死都不怕了那他還有什麼好怕的你刑法已經定到這樣的一個程度已經接近快要跟殺人罪的程度都差不多了但是詐欺案件還是不斷的發生可見重刑不是唯一的方法"},{"start":11058.644,"end":11083.797,"text":"我覺得就像一所預言裡面的北風跟太陽的故事你用北風加重刑罰以外我們同時用利誘的方式就是以高額的這個檢舉獎金來利誘他們來做一個窩裡反做一個窩裡反之後這些詐欺犯罪的人基本上來講他就是缺金錢缺金錢那金錢來講對他是有個誘因因此你如果我們可以除了這個準用正能保護法來"},{"start":11085.325,"end":11110.787,"text":"剪清他們的刑責以外那也可以用這個破案的這個檢舉獎金來讓他們內部的窩裡反那當然各位也會再問那他詐欺我們還給他錢幹什麼我認為說詐欺給錢目的是要破案犯罪那詐欺所給予的獎金的來源可以從查獲到的犯罪所得當然除了返還給被害人以外除了這個剩餘的這個犯罪所得或者是沒收的"},{"start":11111.488,"end":11111.849,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11129.811,"end":11133.415,"text":"公務機關與民間合作以外我認為電信機關與金融機關責無旁貸該負應負的責任特別是在利益衡量上來看假設繼續"},{"start":11145.926,"end":11151.214,"text":"大肆發放電信卡或金融帳戶給詐欺集團還獲得利益但是政府對於求償或處罰並不足夠的時候沒有誘因讓他們積極改善你要達到"},{"start":11161.007,"end":11188.371,"text":"公民合作的目的也就是說打詐不是政府的事情是公務機關跟民間共同合作的目的的話我認為應該科與這些特許機關特別是金融機關跟電信機關一定的賠償責任跟一定的罰則這樣子才有比較有可能達到公民合作的目的也就是說今天他基於利益考量的時候認為今天被處罰的這個罰金高於他所獲得的利潤的時候他才會真正的去重視去防止"},{"start":11188.891,"end":11189.892,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11212.592,"end":11233.752,"text":"主持操縱只會詐欺組織犯罪可以處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑那加重規定是處5年以上有期徒刑其他的規定5年以上最高是15年也就是說縱然依照這個規定最高刑度是15年他的立法可能還是有問題為什麼因為他是用組織犯罪的方式來處理組織犯罪的話假設一個詐欺集團犯了100個罪"},{"start":11234.833,"end":11235.234,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11249.415,"end":11252.277,"text":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11268.266,"end":11283.336,"text":"那至於說有關那個查追查贓物的部分我個人是認為說像虛擬貨幣的部分確實是一個洗錢非常重要的一個工具我自己承辦案件裡面就是詐欺集團基本上來講就是用虛擬貨幣而且他們很喜歡用的就是泰達幣"},{"start":11284.196,"end":11309.266,"text":"因為泰達幣基本上它是跟美元是1比1而且沒有像那個比特幣一樣有重大的這個通膨的問題的話價格會上下波動所以我個人認為說應該要把虛擬貨幣把它納入到監管裡面這當然就是說有一個中央一個主管機關能夠加以統合來處理那至於說新興科技偵查工具的部分我個人跟前面幾位先進的看法倒不是那麼一樣從律師的這個角度來看我認為說"},{"start":11310.546,"end":11310.566,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11325.563,"end":11325.723,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":11349.995,"end":11366.824,"text":"另外第二點必須要符合法律保留原則也是一定要有法律授權最後我個人認為說應該要符合這個法官保留原則也就是最後的這個核准權限應該要回歸到法官裡面結論一句話就是不能夠亂世用重罰反而在亂世要冷靜的立法謝謝好謝謝那麼那個幫我拿給張律師謝謝我們"},{"start":11377.591,"end":11377.691,"text":"請交給張委員"},{"start":11414.227,"end":11430.622,"text":"今天討論的這個議題主要是源自於有本院李昆城委員對於詐欺組織犯罪防制條例的草案提出所以本委員會來進行 那我以下就很快的來進行那麼詐團上派工 檢調殺豬工 AI騙人眾"},{"start":11432.324,"end":11459.852,"text":"人手定不夠那我們來看一下目前面對詐欺國人最在意的排序經過剛剛國人討論很清楚是希望能夠做回賬款然後呢將集團的首腦繩之一環記住是集團的首腦不是車手抓一些車手民眾覺得並沒有打擊到詐團第三呢當然是希望減少被騷擾的次數這大概是指沒有上當的人而言但是緊要面臨哪些問題呢首先也提到了首腦窩藏在境外難以溯源"},{"start":11460.652,"end":11461.372,"text":"網絡科技犯罪的匿名性高"},{"start":11480.297,"end":11504.047,"text":"這些轉接呢 我們就很難追查那其次呢 還有提到 詐欺網路廣告無法即時下架那在這當中啊 我們有聽到了在未來行政院正在擬定的投信投顧法 就是今天在制定的呢 有要求啊在經過政府有關機關要求之後 詐騙廣告大概24小時下架但是面對這樣的一個修法方向"},{"start":11504.887,"end":11504.907,"text":"詐騙廣告"},{"start":11528.832,"end":11530.935,"text":"民營業者：中信營：台北富邦：各自與行政警察合作："},{"start":11549.676,"end":11549.976,"text":"虛擬資產犯難無專法可管"},{"start":11567.941,"end":11586.272,"text":"南非幣這種實體的貨幣投資那算是投資的一種風險高風險高利率那這種消費者自己可能要去找經銷銷經評議委員會去討公道那比特幣這種虛幣呢它的交易怎麼管理更何況那種完全不存在的有餘幣這些都是"},{"start":11587.673,"end":11603.753,"text":"當這種情況之下我們看看詐團的犯罪的他的工具有AI可以自動製造詐騙廣告同時他透過科技的層層移轉快速起錢另外也製造了網路斷點隱匿自身可是相對的我們檢調他的偵查防制工具是傳統的有限的"},{"start":11604.513,"end":11605.674,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11628.853,"end":11657.219,"text":"針對詐欺的源頭進行管理並且希望能夠完整的做回賬款但是相對的我們還有其他的專法之外還有其他的配合比如說科技偵查法剛剛有學者專家提到那麼科技委員也提到科技偵查法應該不限定是偵查網路詐欺應該提供給警方新興的科技偵查工具具備有證據能力這裡面圖了說的M花車還有GPS定位"},{"start":11657.739,"end":11657.879,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11679.213,"end":11679.433,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":11700.359,"end":11700.499,"text":"公聽會．事由．"},{"start":11717.688,"end":11730.459,"text":"主卻詐欺犯罪的防制條例能在本院來進出通過那謝謝我們的李委員昆城到場今天委員會就是就你提出的草案來做一個標的來廣徵各隊的意見 謝謝大家 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們請蔡學儀 蔡律師發言"},{"start":11762.058,"end":11775.451,"text":"委員：各位與會的先進：各位法學的先進：各位專家學者大家好我是與合聯合法律事務所的所長蔡學蔡律師我同時也是司法改革基金會的常務執行委員今天很榮幸來參加這個公聽會"},{"start":11780.296,"end":11803.224,"text":"我想大家都知道這幾年詐騙集團的猖獗已經到了這個人神共憤的程度不只是我們自己隨身使用的手機門號會被詐騙集團用這個電話來騷擾甚至連過去我曾經擔任過檢察官跟法官的這個時期自己在辦公室就是法官跟檢察官的辦公室裡面的公務電話都曾經接到詐騙集團打電話來要來詐騙"},{"start":11807.285,"end":11830.849,"text":"在這樣的情況來說這幾年的詐騙案件成長這麼的快速已經成為所有刑事案件的之冠了那民眾被詐騙的金額也是越來越高那檢警調單位為了偵辦這些詐騙的案件已經讓各單位的人力捉襟見肘有很明顯不足的地方我們可以說這個詐騙案件幾乎是癱瘓了我們的這個檢警調的量能"},{"start":11835.05,"end":11847.317,"text":"而在政府單位投入這麼多的檢體要人員的時候為什麼民眾仍然卻是無感甚至還稱台灣是詐騙之島這中間到底是出了什麼樣的問題我想確實是有必要來檢討那當然從新聞報導"},{"start":11850.239,"end":11859.369,"text":"我們可以有看到一些新聞提到說NCC有聯合電信業者來阻絕這個境外的詐騙電話封鎖這個加886開頭的電話播布臺灣這樣的措施我們聽到是說確實是有效的降低許多這個詐騙的電話打給民眾但民眾仍然無感"},{"start":11871.301,"end":11896.688,"text":"這是因為我個人認為啦就是上有政策下有對策所謂的道高一尺磨高一丈那老人家也常講這些詐騙集團的成員其實他們都非常的智慧型是屬於智慧型的反而非常聰明他都知道該怎麼樣去因應所有政府機關的一些防制措施因此我認為說"},{"start":11898.598,"end":11910.994,"text":"在這樣的情況之下政府機關在提出相關的防堵、詐騙、打詐的情況這些措施也應該要隨時能夠加以因應跟調整那我們今天要"},{"start":11912.663,"end":11933.563,"text":"雖然說討論詐騙案件很多,我們執法單位都抓不完或許我們也要換位思考一下為什麼這麼多人去從事這個詐騙的行為為什麼這麼多年輕人願意加入詐騙集團去從事詐騙行為人家都常講殺頭的生意有人做,但是虧本的生意不會有人做"},{"start":11934.818,"end":11954.856,"text":"所以如果說這個犯罪的利益非常的高﹐被抓的風險又比較低一點﹐甚至說被抓到之後﹐被處罰的程度也是可以接受﹐可以接受的範圍之內的話﹐我相信未來從事詐騙集團的年輕人一定是越來越多"},{"start":11958.539,"end":11985.74,"text":"我們從這邊也可以知道,詐騙這一個案件,就是因為我們定的刑度雖然很高,但是法院判的結果,刑度顯然是跟民眾預期起來是有點落差的,是比較偏低的。但是我們來盤點目前法制面的情況,不管是刑事實體法,組織犯罪條例,洗錢防治法等等,其實都是重型化處理。"},{"start":11986.661,"end":12000.617,"text":"那為什麼重刑化他們還是不怕因為他們就是覺得不容易被抓到幕後的這些主謀、主使他們可以躲在這個科技的後面讓你找不到他人那他們所"},{"start":12001.578,"end":12001.598,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12032.659,"end":12054.529,"text":"如果我們要去阻絕這些詐騙集團從事詐騙行為我想應該不只是從源頭裡面去阻止說民眾不要被騙更重要的是更提早讓詐騙集團的成本去提高剛剛前面已經有很多前輩都有提到了我們應該要去監管他們的金融帳戶還有電信門號"},{"start":12057.791,"end":12072.759,"text":"這些人頭帳戶人頭門號其實取得的成本以前不高而且非常容易現在還是取得容易只是說他們成本增加了如果各位有興趣的話可以去像臨書這種社團裡面去參加找尋一下叫偏門交易的社團裡面有"},{"start":12079.643,"end":12097.157,"text":"每天都有很多的貼文在跟你講說而且是明示暗示說他要的就是人頭的帳戶人頭的電信門號而且還會告訴你說我們會教你事後如果被警方抓到了如何去做答辯你所需要的一些答辯的證據資料比如說對話軟體裡面的這些對話紀錄"},{"start":12102.361,"end":12125.438,"text":"他也可以事先幫你做好讓你可以不用過於擔心未來被檢警追查的時候的行者那這些東西都是未來不管是檢察官在調查的時候或是法院在審理的階段要有辦法去識別我想都有一定程度的困難點那講這個只是要提說詐騙集團確實他們的應變能力非常快那我們要去"},{"start":12133.996,"end":12158.588,"text":"像這次的公聽會有提到像是李昆仁委員所提出來這些專法的部分要加重刑責事實上我認為現行專法以外就已經有足夠的法律來規範這樣的犯罪行為只是說當檢警要抓到之後如何讓他們被定罪這個才更重要的那要定罪不外乎就是要有證據來註意證明說他的犯罪"},{"start":12158.948,"end":12173.144,"text":"那證據在刑事訴訟法規定裡面 證據要有證據能力那現在警察官警察所提用這個科技偵查所收集到的證據又被最高法院認為說絕大部分是沒有經過法院授權"},{"start":12173.985,"end":12200.563,"text":"那這樣的情況不能使用這樣的證據那自然有很多的犯罪是沒有辦法在審理的階段讓法院有足夠的資料來判定說他是有犯罪的情況那所以我認為說我們要通過這些專法以外可能還要先考慮說先將檢察官手上能夠去調查證據取得證據的這些工具這些武器能夠趕快交到檢察官的手上"},{"start":12201.483,"end":12230.011,"text":"尤其就是我們可能之前剛剛前面很多前輩所提到的數位偵查法或是科技偵查法這些裡面有很多很多的項目是要給警察以及假官一個有利的武器來打擊這些犯罪的如果沒有這些武器我們的實體法規定的再高縱使全部判全部讓他們規定成是唯一死刑好了你沒有足夠證據沒辦法定罪這些人通通還是會用無罪的方式走出法院"},{"start":12230.791,"end":12239.525,"text":"所以這部分可能還是要請大院能夠競速的就這部分來演你說 看要怎麼樣去解決各界的分歧"},{"start":12241.308,"end":12262.118,"text":"另外我這邊還要提出一點就是說剛剛那個黃國昌委員有提到所以我們刑事案件不是只有詐欺罪一樣而已每一個警察還有檢察官法官手上案件都不是只有詐欺犯罪還有其他各式各樣的犯罪有待需要去調查去審理那我們當然"},{"start":12263.419,"end":12282.426,"text":"不斷地加重這些詐騙集團的刑責不斷地給予檢察官還有警察工具手段去偵查犯罪但是我們要想一下當我們的檢警人員我們的司法人員已經被各式各樣大量的案件壓得喘不過氣來的時候就算他眼前有一把衝鋒"},{"start":12283.306,"end":12283.466,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":12299.865,"end":12319.761,"text":"我在司法改革基金會裡面我們有一個小組叫做減輕司法負擔我們不希望外界誤解就是說減輕司法負擔為的是說將一些對於人民的法律侵害較小的一些犯罪或是一些爛數的情形盡量排除在司法機關以外讓司法人員能夠騰出手來擁有足夠的時間還有體力去針對"},{"start":12324.104,"end":12324.644,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12348.352,"end":12348.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12368.186,"end":12368.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12388.561,"end":12397.349,"text":"好 謝謝蔡律師先做公聽會程序的處理上午的會議時間繼續進行到所有發言經結束為止接續請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":12411.601,"end":12412.161,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12442.621,"end":12467.148,"text":"從整個國家的體制都不斷的在打詐但是台灣的詐騙反而越來越猖獗我想第一個當然是國內很多的民眾他們從他們現在增加的所謂的投資詐騙交友詐騙都可以看出來民眾對於所謂的被詐騙的這種狀況的警覺性還是不足那對於相關的投資可能也沒有相關的概念所以我們認為"},{"start":12468.248,"end":12494.836,"text":"金融財經素養可能是一個非常重要的前置作業也就是我們希望在高中階段就能夠讓一般的民眾對於將來的投資將來你可以得到什麼樣的合法的投資管道而不是隨便就在LINE裡面在臉書上面參與所謂的投資然後去買了很多根本沒有真正去買到的東西然後就被投資詐騙第二部分的電信詐騙的增加"},{"start":12496.616,"end":12508.822,"text":"當然NCC也對電信詐騙、電信單位尤其是我們的幾大電信業者做了很強制的規定但是事實上規定都有但是落實的不足比如說很簡單"},{"start":12510.615,"end":12534.646,"text":"要求銀行不得用簡訊傳給客戶之後然後讓客戶連結之後再去key入所謂的個人資料但是到現在為止還是非常多的銀行包括我個人都收到銀行的通知說你今天有一筆錢轉出去了請你連結去看你還是要求我再打一次相關的個人資料像這種中央單位都已經做好完整的規範的"},{"start":12536.327,"end":12559.828,"text":"內容厚,但是執行面﹑包括電信業者﹑或者是銀行﹑還是一樣沒有按照所有的SOP來執行也就是還是會讓很多的民眾﹑因為收到這些簡訊﹑可能連結到假的廣站﹑然後留下了個人資料所以重點不是還要立更多的法﹑重點是把現行的法規要怎麼樣子落實"},{"start":12560.785,"end":12587.227,"text":"所以接下去的是這些刑罰不管是在法院定罪也好就剛剛很多先進所說其實後端的執行面讓所謂的詐騙集團、詐騙者他因為受到的刑罰的代價跟他所獲得的利益不成正比的時候他當然會選擇繼續詐騙所以我們要做的是讓他很難得逞很難得逞非常重要的是前端怎麼預防"},{"start":12588.468,"end":12609.768,"text":"預防的機制除了人民的財經素養之外我們認為現在抓到的都是徹首都是人土賬戶其實真正詐騙集團的主腦或者是詐騙集團的這些相關真正拿到錢跟獲益的人他並沒有付出代價所以建構一個通報的平台"},{"start":12610.308,"end":12621.238,"text":"建構一個可以即使阻止他的錢金流流到詐騙集團的這樣的一個機制才是將來真正能夠懲治這些所謂的詐騙詐騙者為什麼因為當他拿不到錢"},{"start":12626.463,"end":12641.852,"text":"當被詐騙者將來告人頭拿得到錢才是最重要的也就是讓他的錢不至於這麼快的就被詐騙集團流出去所以我們要做的是比詐騙集團更快速的擋住金流"},{"start":12642.592,"end":12647.898,"text":"銀行業者、虛擬資產業者都希望建構一個完整的平台,而這個平台應該由政府來主導。蘇法阿普絕對有相關的能力來協助金融業者和虛擬資產業者。"},{"start":12664.116,"end":12678.176,"text":"因為有這個平台目前為止大概都在165或者是相關法務部調查局或者是警察局身上可是現在的這些平台業者可能都還是要統一的通報到不管是這些個別聯絡的單位"},{"start":12679.838,"end":12707.372,"text":"我比較意外的是還有發生虛擬資產業者他們發現賬戶異常他們必須用傳真機傳到165也就是說我們一個數位大國我們在目前為止在數位通報平台上面竟然如此的落後當你的錢不能即時的立刻的反映把它扣存或凍結即使抓到了車手抓到了相關的人頭賬戶又有什麼用"},{"start":12708.012,"end":12708.172,"text":"人頭賬戶的證明"},{"start":12718.362,"end":12745.084,"text":"出賣幾千塊就賣掉存摺的小朋友變成唯一的被告所以對於我們相關的修法立場來說就是希望第一個建構一個通報平臺而這個通報平臺應該由金管會﹐法務部還有訴發部大家一起來建置讓金融機構甚至包括我們的農會信用合作社都要納進來而不是單單只有銀行另外虛擬資產業者也必須要在這個平臺上面"},{"start":12745.825,"end":12747.046,"text":"謝謝黃委員 接下來有請張君倫律師發言"},{"start":12778.816,"end":12798.151,"text":"主席 各位委員以及與會的這個初期的列席的長官以及在座的法學先進後面發言有些好處就是有些就是已經前面已經講的寶貴意見我就不用重複了那我在這邊只要強調說臺灣在這個開發中國家來講的話是詐騙來講是世界第一"},{"start":12805.456,"end":12823.149,"text":"其他的在台灣前面排名之前的那都是未開發國家另外就是當然就查扣的這個金額來講的話最近幾年是暴增的這個事實上在去年11月的天下雜誌都有講過所以我今天只是把這個就稍微提一下"},{"start":12823.849,"end":12824.549,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":12847.737,"end":12870.907,"text":"特別是人頭帳戶的問題因為人頭帳戶他們因為例如說人頭帳戶事實上他有一種特色因為現在人頭帳戶已經不太會放的他放他們到外頭去跑了他們都會把他集中在一個地方去監控就是所謂的強控車跟弱控車的問題現在基本上已經沒有弱控車了就都是在強控車那強控車他們那個人頭上"},{"start":12873.308,"end":12894.607,"text":"人頭賬戶被解救出來以後呢他們可能還是一個受害人身份但事實上他們事實上是一個是幫助犯所以我不曉得說我們的這個有關機關到底在處理這個被救出來的人頭的時候到底是用什麼態度去處理的那再過來就是因為這個詐騙集團的那個分工已經越來越細了以後呢"},{"start":12894.867,"end":12910.434,"text":"事實上已經加入了一些新的成員就例如工程師還有銀行行員我特別銀行行員是很嚴重的那當然還有協力廠商就例如說律師那還有就菜商販賣個資的這些人因為我發現是說這些販賣個資確實他們長期經營的結果他們會掌握到很多很多的這個我們的個人資訊"},{"start":12920.518,"end":12942.931,"text":"那我待會還會再去就這個第二部分再繼續加強那但是我們先前已經講過說我們平台業者事實上就例如說Meta或者是Line事實上是應該刻以責任的至少就應該加強這個平台業者說停止解析這樣的一個行為因為停止解析的話至少就能夠讓這些網站不能夠觸及到一般的民眾以免上當然後呢"},{"start":12944.932,"end":12966.442,"text":"這邊這個是詐騙集團的一些分工我先跳過然後再繼續講因為目前這樣來講目前證券投資及信託及顧問法來講社群平台已經有說24小時之內下架了當然我覺得說如果今天你希望他能夠更快下架的話光是罰則恐怕是不夠的"},{"start":12967.162,"end":12967.762,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12988.391,"end":13003.724,"text":"事實上這些平台 就是說這些金融資產或者說金融機構 他們事實上就是透過賣很多的這些例如說你今天開戶了 然後就有交易 所以他就可以收手續費所以他事實上在這個詐騙的產業鏈裡面 事實上他們是有賺到錢的"},{"start":13010.41,"end":13035.971,"text":"事實上他們並不是所謂的完全無辜所以尤其是如果這個已經有銀行業者參與其中以後事實上KYC的機制如果不夠嚴格的話事實上他們會造成說這個很嚴重的這個就是說應該說是金融機構內控的一個問題那我們在目前打詐無法這個事實上這個條文都已經是不夠事實上都還是強度不太夠那我是認為說因為在這個"},{"start":13039.014,"end":13053.835,"text":"以歐盟來講2020年的時候推行數位出服務法的時候英國就為了制裁這個盜版遊戲網站就已經採取新做法就是用就傳統是說做傳統做法是找到網域登記在登記所國去讓他下架"},{"start":13054.896,"end":13073.294,"text":"法院直接命令國內六大電信業者不能再接到盜版的網站上去英國民眾才連不上盜版的網站最近英國還在考慮一個問題將社交媒體在詐騙案件中所應對受害者所負的"},{"start":13074.235,"end":13074.275,"text":"補償措施"},{"start":13093.338,"end":13115.279,"text":"而且這樣的話可以強迫社交媒體去積極的去防止積極防止他的社交媒體變成詐騙的工具不然的話你今天只是一個就是說如果只是一個行政法老闆我覺得還不夠還可能必須要讓他能夠領民事的責任因為例如說萬事打卡這個我就不講了因為"},{"start":13120.031,"end":13134.49,"text":"我就拿美國使用的信用卡的一個經驗來看因為美國的信用卡是比歐洲來的不進步一些歐洲的信用卡很快就進入到晶片的信用卡但美國為什麼還要死條"},{"start":13137.313,"end":13137.473,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13158.498,"end":13158.518,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13179.36,"end":13183.021,"text":"社交媒體和金融業者都應該對被害人負起責任才行目前"},{"start":13200.107,"end":13222.881,"text":"這個裡面這個框框的地方就是說第一個框框是那個所謂的菜商那是等於販賣個人資料那再過來這個第二個框框是所謂的機房那機房大概就是除了發話所以外是工程師還有電信門號的這個業務及數位行銷還有投資社群兼助理還有協力供應商那這個"},{"start":13223.721,"end":13233.707,"text":"特別是在去年曾經抓到有一個就是有一個業者他做了一個貓池他一台主機可以同時操控一千零九百零四個定卡"},{"start":13237.995,"end":13238.435,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":13258.03,"end":13285.136,"text":"用一台電腦就控制1900多張信訊卡集體的打出電話來所以是第二類第三類的電信業者事實上我們必須要加以限制因為事實上這已經變成一個犯罪的昏床了然後再過來就是水房因為水房事實上是比較容易被抓到因為水房它必須要跟所謂的車房以及控房"},{"start":13285.836,"end":13286.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13305.696,"end":13327.046,"text":"一個詐騙案來講的話機房可能會分到89%的利潤然後是至於車房的話在射手或者是這個射手以及就是後面車房控房來講的話大致上來講他就是差不多只能拿到11%所以我們事實上大部分的這個大部分的利潤都是被機房拿走都是被境外機房拿走了所以我覺得說只能夠從境外機房"},{"start":13330.087,"end":13352.852,"text":"盡量的去製造他所謂的就是說詐騙詐騙被害人的時候的這個成本那成本越高他就他就比較不容易不容易去就是說比較不容易去進行詐騙那因為這個詐騙事實上怎麼講因為例如說我們第三方支付來講網購就會出現這樣一個問題你今天在網路上網購的時候"},{"start":13359.313,"end":13377.287,"text":"東西氣來了然後你看你才會你經過驗貨後才讓他付款那事實上我們應該可以把這個這個機制用在就是說這些境外的這個就是說至少境外的這個虛擬貨幣的平台上面就不能夠讓他馬上交易那這個當然是當然是"},{"start":13379.248,"end":13380.008,"text":"謝謝我們張俊仁大律師方便的話"},{"start":13401.138,"end":13401.298,"text":"何浩元律師"},{"start":13419.525,"end":13445.202,"text":"謝謝主席各位與會的專家學者各位長官各位先進大家好我是永恆法律事務所的何浩遠律師因為在轉任律師前曾經在新北電服務了大概10年多所以針對今天的這個議題雖然現在已經是律師的身份主要還是希望能夠盡量從基層檢方偵辦的一個地位來給大家一些意見作為思考"},{"start":13445.882,"end":13472.465,"text":"因為今天是最後一個專家學者發言所以其實相關的重點前面的前輩們都已經很詳細的提出了各種討論所以說如果要就這個提綱一一來做回應的話可能會有相當多的重複所以因為時間關係也有限所以我就是就個人在實務工作經驗上的觀察來點出其中幾個我認為是現在比較迫切或者重要的地方"},{"start":13473.186,"end":13488.318,"text":"那第一點我認為就是回應前面各位先進各位前輩的說法現在在偵查詐騙犯罪的困境的突破上我和他們有一致的想法就是認為在這個科技偵查的立法上應該是首重的一個部分"},{"start":13489.119,"end":13511.512,"text":"因為這個部分在現在的詐騙案件的案件類型的分布我們來做觀察的話可以發現最常查到還是人頭賬戶車手或者是取部手甚至收水這種比較下方比較外層的角色那往上的像是機房水房洗錢的這些人在偵辦上就還是會有一些查緝的困難"},{"start":13512.692,"end":13537.635,"text":"更遑論大家現在一直想要民眾現在剛剛的那個是調查也顯示民眾現在就希望這些首腦、主謀能夠被繩之以法但是目前在看起來是在比例上是很少的那這之間的差距我認為就是檢警調的偵查武器其實是跟詐騙集團現在越來越專業越來越分工細緻的這個對比之下武器是非常的不夠的"},{"start":13538.757,"end":13548.315,"text":"無法突破這些詐騙機關他們預設的這些在後續偵辦上的一些斷點然後在查到守蒙的這個部分就會有所一個一個障礙"},{"start":13550.057,"end":13572.81,"text":"那我們後續現在針對這個打詐專法我們當然是希望提高刑責來提高嚇阻力可是這個提高刑責的部分呢主要會是針對呢這個犯罪集團的階級去做一些區分那區分了之後當然就是守謀守腦或者是組織操縱的這些部分他的刑責會提高假設我們不能在偵辦上查到這些人那這樣的一個提高刑度"},{"start":13573.65,"end":13587.806,"text":"就形同是一個不常去使用的立法那相對上嚇阻效果一定也會比較少更沒有辦法去使這些後續大家要一窩蜂加入這些詐欺犯罪的人他們會有一個警惕的作用"},{"start":13588.567,"end":13604.454,"text":"當然這個部分是會在科技偵查立法上是會基於一個基本人權以及犯罪偵查效率他會有一個強力的拉扯這部分可能就會有待大家專家學者或是立法這邊的一些努力去做一個橫評的部分"},{"start":13605.274,"end":13623.667,"text":"第2個我想要提到的是因為之前在檢方服務所以跟檢方前面的同事都還是會有一些接觸就是聽到他們關於近期關於偵查輔助人力的提供譬如說有設置了一定員額的甲官助理的部分"},{"start":13624.828,"end":13649.668,"text":"還有另外像剛剛資料裡面有提到就是針對新興的科技犯罪或者是虛擬貨幣這些的查緝分析的部分也都有專責人員的建置那我認為說這個部分在方向上是值得肯定的但是應該也要持續觀察這個後效比方說助理的部分他能夠提供給檢察官的助力到底是針對哪部分有沒有有效的使檢察官能夠把他的時間精力"},{"start":13651.089,"end":13669.174,"text":"發揮在一些比較重大的案件那去減低檢察官花時間在一些繁瑣的工作這個就可以持續觀察的那再來就是現在專責像是虛擬貨幣這樣的分析追查的人員他的專業度到底夠不夠他在實際案件偵辦上會不會有不足那如果我們觀察後效的"},{"start":13670.507,"end":13697.533,"text":"過程中發現有注意的部分我們就應該把它繼續維持甚至是擴大建置這部分的人力那或者在無效的部分就是要來積極來檢討說有沒有其他補強人員的做法因為在這樣有限的人力下和辦案量能下如果案件增加導致檢察官沒有辦法把他的最主要精力發揮在這些應該關注的重大經濟甚至詐騙這些犯罪上那無形中不只這些犯罪無法被遏止受害的一定是我們人民"},{"start":13698.493,"end":13715.539,"text":"第三點我想要提出來討論的主要會是針對在這個追回不罰所得返還給被害人的部分這個部分呢因為先前這個自己在實務上的經驗以及理解還有後期在擔任律師部分處理案件的經驗"},{"start":13716.579,"end":13731.554,"text":"我發現在近年內比較大規模的詐欺或經濟犯罪基層的檢察官他在第一時間偵辦案件的同時也都會注重到去查扣一些不法所得或者是這些嫌疑人被告的財產那這個部分的"},{"start":13732.555,"end":13750.69,"text":"封棄的這個造成也是值得肯定的但是對於一般被害人的角度來看即使前面查扣了這麼多財產這麼多所得這麼多資金他們能不能夠在最後這個案件確定的時候去拿回他們應有的賠償這個可能在"},{"start":13754.674,"end":13776.452,"text":"實務上以我的之前因為擔任檢察官的時候曾經待過執行科那先前擔任律師的時候也有協助被害人就是去提告甚至是後去去請求賠償的這個案件我認為被害人在比例上能夠在最後案件確定的階段拿回他們應該得到的賠償從這個不法所得裡面來拿這個情形是比例是非常少的那因為這個被害人他會有什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":13780.902,"end":13796.79,"text":"他有可能因為這個程序的冗長他在中間不知道他該在什麼時間點切入去爭取他的權利或者說因為法律觀念他的認知上會有一個落差或者是不具備的情形那他們有意願要拿回他們的賠償卻"},{"start":13798.231,"end":13826.923,"text":"遭遇到重重的阻礙那譬如說呢我們政府能不能在這個時候透過一定的機制的建立上去給他們一點在專業能力上的輔助或者是協助讓他們能夠更積極的去保護自己的權益因為我們都常常聽說法律是不保護權益睡著的人但是當這個權益睡著的人他可能是因為自己的這些專業能力的落差或者是資訊上的落差他沒有辦法或困難去"},{"start":13828.143,"end":13853.257,"text":"去爭取他這樣的權益上那我認為在這個時候政府機關應該就有介入的空間譬如說可以提供法律專業協助啊簡化他們球場的程序或者是適時給予他們通知或者是告知能夠得到這個發動球場的這個機會還有強化一些能有效觸及的宣導這些我認為都是可以去考慮思考和設計的方向"},{"start":13855.756,"end":13874.134,"text":"針對我們專法的部分那剛剛也有提到就是說我是比較贊成那個像蔡院長或是幾位學者的意見認為說現在我們一直著重於提高刑度那要去針對這個首腦主謀或是這些控制操縱組織的人去給他們一些"},{"start":13876.056,"end":13903.801,"text":"民眾想要看到的教訓但是如果我們同時又不增加我們查緝到他們的可能性或者是最後定罪的機率那這樣的重罪的提高其實是對整體的這個詐騙的賀止是沒有幫助的那可是在專法裡面提出來這個下架機制我個人反倒會認為說或許是在前端就去做一個阻止或者是擴大損害的是一個有效的手段"},{"start":13904.622,"end":13930.155,"text":"那再來就是說在裡面也有一個部分他是要提供這些犯罪組織的參與者如果他們能夠在檢警偵查的時候或者是後續司法審判程序中提供有效資訊來幫助追回這些主要犯罪所得的話那能夠適用這個規定來做免除舉行就是這個是在政人保護法以外之外再給他們額外的優惠"},{"start":13930.995,"end":13953.451,"text":"這個部分我也是覺得說在方向上是值得肯定但是實際上最後要適用這個規定的時候在認定上會不會有一個困難是需要去思考就是說怎麼樣去認定他提供的資訊是追回了主要的犯罪所得那因為這是一個不確定的法律概念所以說後續可能就有賴法院這邊或者是更高"},{"start":13954.452,"end":13979.682,"text":"省籍的這些實務的見解來做一個確認那當然這個規定它的適用上如果真的有產生一些真的追回了這些不法所得效果那再搭配我剛剛提到的說就是後端這邊政府這邊協助這些被害人在有效查扣的不法所得又去取回他們應得的酋長的話那我覺得在人民對於我們打詐的公信力以及後續這個去"},{"start":13981.223,"end":13982.084,"text":"李坤誠委員發言"},{"start":14003.552,"end":14015.729,"text":"謝謝主席也非常謝謝有很多的學者、法律專家先進剛剛的一些說法還有一些解釋的部分當然還有列席的政府官員"},{"start":14016.721,"end":14034.475,"text":"那這個本席是有先來提出來這一個詐欺組織犯罪防制條例草案那當然是有鑒於說目前雖然政府有打詐無法那但是打詐無法這個效果是有但是還不明顯那所以我們是希望說那至少在有一些還不足的地方"},{"start":14034.735,"end":14034.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14058.477,"end":14059.238,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":14072.671,"end":14075.413,"text":"被判刑6個月以上的法務部資料大概佔了4成多法官的量刑的部分"},{"start":14097.888,"end":14098.65,"text":"在本席提出的詐欺組織犯罪條例"},{"start":14110.236,"end":14139.327,"text":"那其實也有針對這個納入這個量刑的準則可以供這個法官的參考那也針對這個電信業者還有數位仲介服務提供者那強制給予他們這個協助詐欺組織犯罪的這個防制義務跟責任那尤其現在這個所謂新興的犯罪在這個電信業者還有數位仲介服務提供者這方面這個他們的手法是日新月異那當然相關的部會也都有相關的做法那其實我們不管是在"},{"start":14139.968,"end":14140.048,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":14154.946,"end":14172.813,"text":"電信面這方面 賦予電信業者 如果知道使用的號碼是有疑似從事詐欺犯罪的話那是不是要有停止服務的相關法源依據第二個在網路面 那就是剛剛提到"},{"start":14174.033,"end":14174.053,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14189.984,"end":14214.716,"text":"責任但是因為他們沒有落地管理那所以其實我們在在管理這上面其實還是非常的被動那所以說在這方面那如何這一個綠定這個網路業者這個未來能夠落地管理的問題然後在金融這方面就是除了這傳統的這個銀行之外我們對於這個貨幣虛擬貨幣資產也要進行管理那尤其對於很多這個"},{"start":14215.623,"end":14215.803,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14233.869,"end":14260.612,"text":"這個新興的偵查工具剛剛相信有很多的學者專家還有委員也都有提到所以這個新興的偵查工具那我們是不是要有一些法源上面依據那我們希望這一個能夠抓到罪犯但是又要保障基本的人權那所以在這個有關於這個科技偵查法這方面我們也希望說是不是有相關的法源依據能夠提出來那所以說在未來在偵查的時候"},{"start":14261.152,"end":14261.512,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14282.031,"end":14282.571,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14303.166,"end":14303.447,"text":"羅委員致強發言"},{"start":14333.484,"end":14338.442,"text":"主席還有我們所有的與會的專家學者還有我們的委員同仁"},{"start":14339.697,"end":14365.487,"text":"首先今天真的非常高興可以來這邊參加今天的公聽會事實上我有一個很深刻的感觸就是我們的詐騙集團已經上太空但我們的政府執法還在殺豬公真的是坦白講我覺得有三個地方都要加強一個是我們的執法的法制另外執法的科技當然還有執法的決心"},{"start":14367.328,"end":14378.656,"text":"今天來這裡其實就是希望能夠善盡我們去優化我們的執法法制的這樣一個工作跟任務那我們知道其實過去近年來這個詐騙的問題真的是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14382.419,"end":14407.795,"text":"我相信所有的委員在選區大概經常都會遇到選民來反映詐騙的問題我們陳情案裡面有很高的比重是有關於詐騙的問題我之前看到一個數字就是全台灣人民大概有94%的人都接過詐騙的訊息我非常懷疑那6%的人根本不住在台灣"},{"start":14409.396,"end":14431.377,"text":"我實在是很難想像有誰沒接過詐騙訊息而且近年來真的是詐騙的狀況的嚴重已經是非常有感了我就講我自己個人這些年來我不是講我自己我身邊的朋友就有非常多人被詐騙我的辦公室也有同仁被詐騙只是他後來覺得他被騙他覺得自己很丟臉他還沒報案"},{"start":14433.886,"end":14453.964,"text":"沒報案 他自己覺得那個損失不大兩三萬塊錢 他沒有報案可是我身邊也有一些朋友基本上一被詐騙的金額數十萬甚至上百萬都有那這是在以前其實坦白講是都沒有發生的事情以前就是我們聽到詐騙也是很嚴重以前電話詐騙對不對"},{"start":14455.385,"end":14476.309,"text":"但是你真的要身邊聽到很具體被詐騙的個案的這種情況現在真的是嚴重的非常非常多所以因此這種情況之下我覺得真的是不管是政府還有我們包括我們的所有的社會各界以及包括我們立法院其實都要到痛定思痛來面對詐騙這個既是國恥我都覺得已經是國安問題了"},{"start":14480.29,"end":14503.422,"text":"他詐騙的演變的狀況甚至演變到之前包括清普跟淡海那邊還發生集團式的這個所謂的把人拘禁然後施虐甚至還虐死這種非常令人髮指的事情那這些都是在顯示說我們今天有關於詐騙的那個法制有很多的缺口"},{"start":14503.902,"end":14510.525,"text":"所以最近我也跟這個很多我們的立法院的同仁也在思考就從不管是從我們講說法的那個針防程序上包括說我們的刑事法上法制上要做什麼樣的一個改變然後最近我就在"},{"start":14523.25,"end":14542.097,"text":"關切一個問題 剛有跟莊惠璇委員就私下有聊到說我們台灣其實有很多的在處境上的一些困難所以我們當我們在詐騙犯跑到海外之後實際上我們就經常沒有辦法是我們的這個法律的力量能夠所觸及的"},{"start":14543.118,"end":14560.636,"text":"這個情況之下我們怎麼樣去強化我們的政府 包括說怎麼樣在我們的國境之外能夠把這些詐騙的犯罪也能夠有相當的一個管制跟約束所以我們也在朝你包括棄逃遣逃罪"},{"start":14562.558,"end":14581.665,"text":"也包括甚至有關於說我們怎麼樣去透過我們的護照的一個制度注銷還是怎麼樣的制度然後能夠去增加這些所謂的外逃出境的一些詐騙犯他基本上他可能他會被抓到的一個機率把它增加"},{"start":14582.165,"end":14595.098,"text":"那當然我事實上也在透過質詢也希望我們的政府機關有除了說在執法上以外那麼也能夠去精確化包括說因為現在你看很多詐騙犯都是到海外去我們一邊是我們的詐騙犯是到海外"},{"start":14600.003,"end":14600.223,"text":"政府機關﹚司法單位﹚掌握資訊﹚"},{"start":14623.024,"end":14623.164,"text":"國民黨 民進黨 民眾黨"},{"start":14653.171,"end":14656.695,"text":"學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢政府機關代表請就書面資料以外的部分"},{"start":14673.995,"end":14702.627,"text":"在座補充說明那麼由於過去的經驗通常大家都很客氣所以我就按照大家提供書面資料的內容的多寡我就依序來詢問有沒有要做補充首先請教個人資訊保護委員會籌備處有沒有補充沒有 謝謝那麼財經公司有沒有補充財經公司沒有 謝謝那麼行政院打擊詐欺辦公室有沒有補充沒有"},{"start":14704.138,"end":14724.674,"text":"經濟部有沒有要補充?也沒有因為他們提供的資料只有一頁兩頁所以要先問國家通訊傳播委員會有沒有要補充?請時間三分鐘在場還有幾位學者專家跟委員如果要做第二輪登記的先在旁邊先登記"},{"start":14730.149,"end":14743.281,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位學者專家還有在場的各政府的官員通常要補充說明的就是在打詐綱領底下有一個三個很重要的三檢策略是減少"},{"start":14745.115,"end":14772.558,"text":"減少接觸減少誤信減少損害那通常會在這個原則下推行的一些措施那希望說能夠減少接觸減少誤信減少損害所以在剛剛協助專家所提過的裡面的電信門號的阻斷跟警示的部分通常會在去年開始實施就是境外來話的部分如果是偽冒的部分就加以攔阻那"},{"start":14773.098,"end":14774.46,"text":"有關於門號限制的部分,目前"},{"start":14789.242,"end":14811.615,"text":"在去年實施KYC的指引之後﹐那確實有產生一些效果﹐但是這些效果﹐剛剛學長剛才提到﹐它只是一個指引的方式﹐並不具備比較強制的力道﹐所以通常會目前也在訂電信事業用戶號碼﹐使用管理辦法﹐那目前這個草案要預告到3月25號﹐"},{"start":14814.336,"end":14832.595,"text":"今天也辦理了一個公開說明會今天學者大家所提的相關的意見比如日本的手機號碼不當使用法的部分所提的相關意見通常會帶回去在我們這個草案裡面加以延期另外對於電信服務剛剛我們電信產業發展協會"},{"start":14836.618,"end":14859.691,"text":"副秘長所發言的那個部分呢那在電信管理法有沒有需要再做一個更進一步的調修因為電信管理法在109年其實要施行了那也施行了3年多了那有沒有在執行這段過程裡面就如學者專家所提的電信服務的部分有沒有需要在精進的部分通常也會待會去研究那另外就"},{"start":14861.596,"end":14876.892,"text":"另外對於剛剛提的二列以及門號限制的部分,通常會有辦理的一個宣導跟行政檢查的部分,那我們會來持續辦理,讓這些門號的部分能夠有效的管制,以上"},{"start":14878.888,"end":14880.49,"text":"請問金融監督管理委員會有沒有補充"},{"start":14902.011,"end":14910.177,"text":"那再來是司法院有沒有要再補充沒有請問法務部有沒有要書面以外的補充有請次長"},{"start":14920.271,"end":14940.885,"text":"主席各位專家學者各位機關代表大家好關於今天幾個發言的重點跟本部有關的懲詐面向部分不外乎整理四個重點第一個就是提高我們刑罰的威嚇性的部分第二部分是如何制定偵查工具法制化的部分第三個部分是有關於被害人"},{"start":14941.725,"end":14965.641,"text":"被害金額的返還機制以及這個司法互助這個領域的部分第4個部分當然是有關於人頭賬戶的監理跟制裁性的部分那有關於這4個部分我簡單的回應如下提高刑罰威嚇性的部分這有兩個面向第一個當然是一個良性的問題這良性的問題是法官的核心領域就講了關於立場我們只可以就這個良性科型辯論跟科型事實調查"},{"start":14966.542,"end":14991.562,"text":"作負一個舉證責任：而且監督法官的判決那至於提高刑責的部分：很多學者專家都提到甚至有專家提到不應該要提高那這部分呢當然這是一個整個一個大方向那就我們法務部就整個這一個打詐專法提高刑法威嚇性的部分不外乎幾個面向包括這個刑法的分責的部分目前的這個相關的法律"},{"start":14992.443,"end":15009.241,"text":"打詐它現在是一年以上七年以下我們要不要提高到三年以上十年以下有部分的立法委員有做這樣的倡議另外要不要有一些犯罪我們把獨立刑責化把它提高刑罰這也是一個面向至於刑罰總則的部分很多些的專家都提到加重是有減輕是有"},{"start":15010.282,"end":15027.637,"text":"例如加重他是不是因為犯罪手段的殘忍性或者他是被告的守模或者是什麼樣的身份共犯的結構的不同給他不同的刑責甚至因為詐騙的所得提高一個刑責甚至剛剛我們林志源林教授也提到是不是因為他的脆弱處境的被害人"},{"start":15028.097,"end":15028.397,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15050.629,"end":15050.849,"text":"詐欺的門檻提高"},{"start":15065.966,"end":15087.385,"text":"科技偵查工具設計到通保法修正及科偵法修正這兩部法目前都已在行政院審議當中通保法就網路的流量紀錄我們把它訂進去了科偵法部分各位關心所關心的M化車GPS5我們都把它入法化至於有誰提到這到底要訂刑訴還是要訂打詐專法還是像我們目前的立法策略上訂一個科偵法"},{"start":15092.629,"end":15113.063,"text":"這我們都可以來討論但目前我們整個法部的這個初步立場是定在科徵法裡面不像德國定在刑事訴訟法去做這個科技徵法的法制化第三個有關於被害人經常金額返還的部分在偵審中檢察官如果能夠就這扣押的金額他已經能夠認定其實法律規定他能夠馬上進行返還"},{"start":15114.764,"end":15130.805,"text":"那如果說已經到達那一個確定之後我們目前法制上有緩緩的機制但重點困難是在哪裡?是在查扣查扣就涉及到我們目前的查扣法制其實是完備的只是因為到檢察官階段他查扣的已經緩不及急了"},{"start":15131.826,"end":15152.604,"text":"所以剛剛有委員就提到是不是我們司法互助要強化我這邊跟各位報告事實上我們現在司法互助我們近幾年簽了非常多的司法互助但是我要跟各位委員或專家學者報告司法互助去查購犯罪所得其實也是緩不及急重點是現在有很多的金融機關也好相關政府部門也好"},{"start":15153.384,"end":15172.237,"text":"國外簽訂相關行政政策上的MOU透過行政上的MOU即時做一些行政上的扣押或行政上阻斷金流這樣比起司法互助的後端請求其實會來得更快最後有關人頭賬戶管理的部分我們也非常同意"},{"start":15172.657,"end":15192.332,"text":"大部分委員的意見人頭賬戶其實在監理面重於制裁面在制裁面的部分當然我們大院在去年我們的這個洗方法已經就這個人頭賬戶已經訂了15條之一15條之二甚至在洗錢防治法15條之二的第6項也授權了訂了一個管理辦法就這個提供人頭賬戶他未來的賬戶的使用"},{"start":15194.514,"end":15194.714,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15210.399,"end":15215.363,"text":"未來在人頭賬戶的制裁方面﹐可以﹐達到一個立竿見影的效果﹐以上4點回應 謝謝"},{"start":15246.236,"end":15262.413,"text":"謝謝主席讓我有機會第二輪發言那也謝謝剛才NCC的長官有提到關於電信管理法跟電信法之間轉軌產生的問題那也跟各位報告按照電信 過往的二類電信在電信法裡面是許可制"},{"start":15262.933,"end":15290.535,"text":"是必須要經過主管機關NCC的審核才可以執行相關的電信服務但到電信法的之後呢他直接將它鬆綁完全不列入電信管理法的規管的範圍使得在去年6月30號之後也就是電信法跟電信管理法要做轉軌之後的三年落日之後呢所有的二類電信其實就不被強制要去做登記跟審查"},{"start":15291.215,"end":15318.386,"text":"那甚至於在這個電信管理法的精神上面也使得主管機關認為似乎不需要讓二類電信業者進行登記這也是剛才我提到的在電信管理法裡面因為所有從事電信服務的人都必須經過主管機關的審查確認他是否正當從事相關的電信服務但在電信管理法卻鬆綁了但是這也造成現在詐騙的破口所以"},{"start":15318.806,"end":15342.566,"text":"在電信管理法裡面很明確的對於任何從事電信服務者都有一般義務跟特殊義務如果你握有號碼或者是評估你要從一般義務增加到特殊義務但即使不握有號碼你如果要做電信服務的話仍舊有相關的一般義務要遵守譬如說確認你的消費者跟你的客戶的樣貌這就是我們說的KYC"},{"start":15343.787,"end":15368.929,"text":"所以因為現在的電信管理法並沒有將二類放進去這個所謂的規管的範圍極度強烈的期待就是主席這邊可以將電信法進入列入修法的範圍這是我的第一項的補充那還有一點點時間我就做剛才有些先進有提到說是不是可以乾脆用連帶賠償的方式要求金融機構或相關的電信業者"},{"start":15369.649,"end":15386.918,"text":"或者是任何的有接觸到詐騙訊息的人都負連帶賠償我只能說目前在國際上有類似討論的是新加坡叫共同責任框架但是新加坡他很特別會做這樣的討論目前並沒有入法但會做這樣的討論是因為他們決定將簡訊的發送來源做統一的規管換句話說"},{"start":15394.662,"end":15412.92,"text":"任何在新加坡境內要發送簡訊的人必須去他們政府許可的一個法人去做身份登記而做了身份登記之後呢你再做簡訊的發送那麼如果金融業者或者電信業者"},{"start":15414.478,"end":15425.963,"text":"願意或者是沒有去做他們所謂的官方單位的登記而幫他去傳送簡訊的時候有責任在上面必須要誇呼此發送來源"},{"start":15430.004,"end":15430.184,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15445.157,"end":15445.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15466.258,"end":15466.298,"text":"負連帶責任"},{"start":15486.536,"end":15486.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15503.322,"end":15520.405,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉副秘書長有請您剛剛提到希望本院對於電信管理法是不是要進行必要的修正因為它在從電信法到電信管理法轉軌期間二類電信的部分它的業者的義務可能就放鬆了"},{"start":15521.286,"end":15549.005,"text":"那剛剛你也提到了新加坡開始在研議要有一個連帶賠償責任要有一個共同責任框架那誠如大家一般常識所知新加坡當局他在金融業的自由度是相當高的跟世界接軌但是在言論自由上是不如金融業那麼自由所以這種情況之下他對於電信業者的規管跟刻意金融業者的責任是不是值得我們台灣來參考這也是一個不錯的因為每次金管會都會跟我們說"},{"start":15549.885,"end":15553.067,"text":"約定帳號次日生效改為次二日生效到底要什麼樣的基礎之下我們能夠去修改不去影響到國際金融的流通"},{"start":15569.758,"end":15593.413,"text":"但又能有效地遏止一般消費者在消費詐騙的過程當中損失金錢這些都值得金管會再進一步去研議的我想未來我們本院的委員會針對今天各學者專家的意見我們會充分地去做審視那麼適度地來對各相關業務主管機關或法令主管機關提出修法或質詢"},{"start":15595.295,"end":15609.366,"text":"今天公聽會的發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天所有的發言內容書面資料以及在現場印發給各位的有一份南洋台灣姊妹會"},{"start":15611.027,"end":15635.7,"text":"針對東南亞移工移民防詐政策的建言一份以及省委員發會所提的書面資料我們均列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及本日初列席人員參考那麼本次公聽會就到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":15640.575,"end":15642.106,"text":"趕快來跟劉秘書長"}]}},{"id":"15727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15727","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d6d0b2a5b2cc6652c6ddb8aeea0ab2b9a3be8d109af184be4bb61efd8e2cd048e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-14","start_time":"2024-03-14T08:31:33+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:38:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14787,"委員發言時間":"08:31:33 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呂政芳 呂參謀長陸軍後勤指揮部 劉清勳 劉參謀長直通電軍指揮部 陳俊良 陳參謀長軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁 鄧處長電訊發展室 萬鴻森 萬副主任"},{"start":1999.637,"end":2005.842,"text":"國家中山科學院研究院院長張忠誠、張院長國家安全局柯承亨、柯副局長海洋委員會副主任委員兼海巡署署長周梅武、周副主委海域安全處黃宣凱、黃處長"},{"start":2031.223,"end":2049.009,"text":"海巡署巡防組 廖雲紅 廖組長海巡署情報組 黃錫章 黃組長海巡署督察組 謝慶欽 謝組長海巡署中部分署 王正信 王分署長"},{"start":2053.971,"end":2061.162,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部邱國正部長報告．面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為．並備質詢．請國防部邱部長上臺報告"},{"start":2080.154,"end":2095.868,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今天應邀到大院委員會來做一個專題的報告承蒙各位委員平常對國軍因應中共常態化對我的侵擾強化我們戰力整備跟應處作為的關切跟指導在此表達誠實的謝意"},{"start":2097.87,"end":2115.678,"text":"我們國軍秉持著不引發事端、不升高衝突的原則﹐面對中共軍事的威脅與灰色地帶侵擾﹐始終維持嚴密的聯合情建政作為﹐精確掌握周邊的海空情的動態﹐然後縝密地應處共軍軍事的威懾與任職作戰﹐"},{"start":2117.319,"end":2135.509,"text":"我們國軍也會持續努力與戰訓本務．強化戰備準備．針對中共常態化的侵擾．這些行為來審慎的以對．以維護我們國家的安全．建議接續由我們國防部做計事次長．陳文勛中將面對這個專題．面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅的影響．與應處作為．作為一個專題報告謝謝"},{"start":2147.403,"end":2152.557,"text":"面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為 專案報告報告單位 國防部"},{"start":2155.814,"end":2178.635,"text":"一、前言中共在2022年20大政治報告中指出為爭取統一不放棄對台使用武力迄今對我文攻武嚇從未尖端更以常態化灰色地帶侵擾並用認知作戰打擊與混淆國際視聽緝毒片面改變台海現狀升高區域衝突"},{"start":2179.876,"end":2188.025,"text":"對我國防形成嚴峻挑戰．國軍除持續陸力戰訓本務．強化戰備準備．並實時嚴密掌握共軍動態．審慎應對．維護我領空、領海安全及捍衛主權完整．二中共軍事威脅威懾太陽．"},{"start":2200.697,"end":2225.09,"text":"中共自民國111年8月﹐對台從事聯合軍事行動後﹐將海峽中線模糊化﹐縱觀近3年已建立常態化、週期性﹐各項對台威懾模式﹐此將近期共軍活動態樣分析如下﹐一、常態性活動﹐派遣機艦於臺灣周邊海空域執行空中監偵﹐"},{"start":2226.811,"end":2245.405,"text":"戰備警巡及電子勤搜等任務．並不定期漁業海峽中心．進入我應變區海空域．從事應對外籍基建．勤搜我軍事演訓與武器參數活動．二,灰色地帶侵擾．運用海警船、民兵機魚船進入臺灣本島．"},{"start":2247.97,"end":2272.04,"text":"及金馬外島等周邊海域另以小型無人機侵入外離島限制空域實施侵搜或施放碳空氣球飛越台灣上空。聯合戰備警巡中共現已採週期性派遣基建逾越海峽中線﹐企圖透過軍事行動淡化海峽中線存在壓縮國軍應處與訓練的空間。"},{"start":2276.902,"end":2302.573,"text":"計劃性聯訓公軍依年度訓練期程執行海空聯訓、遠海長航聯合登陸及飛彈試射等演訓活動除派遣各型主輔戰機、無人機及海軍艦船進出第一島鏈從事區域拒止、抗擊外軍等演練外令結合火箭軍、陸軍援火部隊驗證聯合作戰能力5.針對性軍演"},{"start":2306.141,"end":2322.583,"text":"共軍建美對我軍售有盟國家官員訪台及國際發表友台言論等時機,派遣基建進入台海周邊區域,遂行針對性聯合軍事行動以表達不滿及對我軍事威懾"},{"start":2325.025,"end":2343.282,"text":"國軍應處作為．國軍秉持備戰不求戰．應戰不必戰的指導．持續強化戰備整備．積極應處共軍．各種侵擾行動及軍事威懾．確保我領土安全及區域穩定．面對中共常態化灰色地帶侵擾．國軍具體應處作為．報告如後聯合情監偵"},{"start":2349.673,"end":2368.281,"text":"我軍結合三軍戰備徵詢任務,適切部署海空徵收系統及載航基建﹐擴大掌握當面敵海空及火箭軍動態﹐並持續整合雷結型與影像情報﹐及透過國際情勢交換及找獲知敵情威脅﹐爭取早期預警及時應處。"},{"start":2374.184,"end":2401.216,"text":"海空侵擾預應 國號1依經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定．對漁業海峽中線進入我海空應變區域．是共軍基建實施廣播警告．並派遣海空兵力並航監控攔截驅離．及提升陸基防空．安置反艦飛彈帶射姿態．應處共軍威脅 國號2外島防區若掌握低空目標接近．"},{"start":2402.196,"end":2426.541,"text":"除即以突發狀況處置規定執行應處外．並同時通報工作部實施廣播驅離。無人機反制中共運用無人機侵擾我外島防區．國軍並遇突發狀況立即相互通報．整體反應事變要領採取識別監控告警通報"},{"start":2427.93,"end":2444.005,"text":"防衛設計、安全示警等程序應處。國防部外離島地區現已部署干擾槍﹐後續將配發遠距反制系統﹐以應對敵小型無人機侵擾或反制、滴空、載具進行。"},{"start":2446.647,"end":2467.734,"text":"支援海巡海域執法現行外導禁止限制水域執法任務由海巡署負責．國軍已不直接介入支援者保持監控若海巡署提出支援需求．由建制部派遣適切兵力應援戰備徵詢建於共軍基建平面漁業海峽中線．國軍為展現堅決維護領空、領海主權立場．"},{"start":2474.556,"end":2490.723,"text":"並強化緊急應變區域聯防機制．執行三軍戰備部隊徵詢作法如下。公告五一空中聯合戰鬥巡邏與訓練區域派遣空中兵力沿海峽中線及防空識別區域．結合訓練實施戰鬥巡邏．並由海軍徵詢艦及陸機防空飛彈全程掩護。公告五二"},{"start":2498.763,"end":2515.834,"text":"海上聯合徵詢與海峽中線及臺灣周邊海域．結合訓練執行海上區域徵詢．並由空中戰機、陸基防空飛彈．安置反艦飛彈及海巡艦艇掩護。關武山地面部隊戰備徵詢．"},{"start":2518.339,"end":2527.428,"text":"地面戰備部隊結合地境責任區域．對重要軍事防護目標及關鍵基礎設施．實施戰備徵詢．強化區域聯防機制．提升應變制變．防恐應援戰力整備．設計想定狀況．常態化訓練"},{"start":2539.7,"end":2561.826,"text":"針對共軍各種灰色地帶侵擾．國軍處案程序妥善應處外．並依共軍可能軍事行動．設計空中、海上及外離島．各類響鈴狀況．納入各部隊戰備訓練項目．保持常態演練．以提升部隊應變處置能力．七、作戰計劃演練．三軍部隊結合．"},{"start":2565.627,"end":2585.52,"text":"漢光演習、機訓測考及各類演訓時機與作戰現地實施應急作戰．戰力保存、整體防空、聯合截擊．國土防衛及戰力整補等防衛作戰演練．使官兵了解作戰計畫．熟悉戰場環境並落實戰場經營。反制敵意認知作戰關乎一．對於中共認知作戰及未假訊息之滲透．"},{"start":2594.406,"end":2618.906,"text":"由本部聯合專案編組快速反應事變．除主動鑄收爭議訊息之外．更運用軍文社、青年日報與漢森電台等專業能量．透過正向文宣策略與傳閃．鞏固國人及官兵心理防線。．國防部2針對各項錯假訊息建立反制認知作戰應處機制．"},{"start":2621.075,"end":2640.784,"text":"依追根溯源、查證、損害評估與澄清等方式反制．杜絕不實資訊擴散．四、結語．面對中共與台海周邊所實施之軍事威懾．灰色地帶侵擾及對我認知作戰等威脅．國軍將持續依敵情威脅．涉及各種軍事侵擾之響鈴狀況．"},{"start":2645.246,"end":2654.734,"text":"並藉嚴格訓練方式強化各項戰備作為．鞏固三軍部隊防衛戰力．確保國家安全報告完畢 敬請遲到"},{"start":2661.516,"end":2690.316,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘非本會委員8分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理在這裡也特別宣告邱國正部長12點起請假因為在12點以後要副總統府參加專案會議所以由副部長薄鴻輝代理"},{"start":2691.391,"end":2717.906,"text":"我們現在請黃仁黃委員上台質詢有請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":2728.826,"end":2732.673,"text":"本席非常嚴肅地來表達本人的立場"},{"start":2735.417,"end":2755.922,"text":"對於國防的整經、背經、建造本席非常的支持但是昨天自由時報特別報導了臺東關山有關於開闢建造戰備跑道然後經過地方的縣長、首長"},{"start":2759.792,"end":2768.569,"text":"關山政工所裡面下午3點半來研討這個開闢建造戰備跑道的這個部分"},{"start":2770.069,"end":2788.688,"text":"因為在國防部的計畫拓展後的臺九縣關山路段新建站面跑道軍方3月12號下午3點關山證供所的地方說明會前農民高喊著是時守護田地"},{"start":2790.991,"end":2810.028,"text":"貝偉的要求也是農民的要求在當地有非常多居民還有部落原住民的原基地所以當時縣長姚慶林及黃建斌立法委員也歷臨在領聽我們空軍參謀長"},{"start":2815.613,"end":2824.998,"text":"所陳述如何建造的戰略跑動那這邊特別特別要表達的是對於我們"},{"start":2831.182,"end":2859.974,"text":"臺九縣關山路段興建正面跑道是一個包裹裡的糖衣毒藥為什麼?待會兒我來做解釋那我想說聽聽你們的有關於關山路段興建正面跑道的興建計畫還有這個先前的一個溝通有什麼樣的方案請你說明一下所以我跟委員報告首先很感謝委員對建新備戰一個支持"},{"start":2861.034,"end":2881.889,"text":"第二個我要表達這樣,國軍在這幾年來不管建軍備戰工作,一定會考量到地方建設或都會的發展。我舉一個很簡單的例子,早就有很多近線界的地方,不管山域要岸,我們一點點放出去,原因是來配合地方做一個毒色改善,事實上軍民是聯合在一道的。"},{"start":2882.409,"end":2900.544,"text":"第三我要表達這一回這條道路我記得前一陣子我也跟某一些同仁講過因為有道路所以我們評估在這個道路如果直或者寬度夠我們就建議在這上面有一段是戰備跑道並非要建戰備跑道"},{"start":2901.785,"end":2915.473,"text":"做一條公路首先要做說明在空軍也積極在跟地方政府協調當中地方的要求、訴求我們也很清楚我想這都可以談如果說"},{"start":2916.914,"end":2918.276,"text":"我想請教國防部長"},{"start":2935.1,"end":2948.812,"text":"空軍當時如果有這樣的一個計畫先前的應該要以部落會議作為諮商因為在原基法的規定裡面在原基法的第21條那"},{"start":2951.474,"end":2976.304,"text":"我們21條裡面特別就是有關於開發或者是地方的建設必須要經過部落會議但是你們在規劃這個案子的時候完全還沒有經過部落會議包含居民的一個建議諮商所以你們有這樣的規劃是不是浪費了公帑然後"},{"start":2977.844,"end":3003.216,"text":"你再做一個說明到當地說明我覺得這樣是浪費時間因為不要以人民對立我想我的本身立場我非常贊同任何我們國防戰備或是整備的任何前瞻的計畫我非常的希望有一個建設那另外就是說我想"},{"start":3004.156,"end":3032.155,"text":"本席希望國防部能重新的考量檢討符合建金戰備的需求又能兼顧地方發展的配套方案請國防部長及交通部能夠再交換意見再找到一個折衷的方案然後派錢到本席辦公室來研究這個方案好不好"},{"start":3032.855,"end":3052.701,"text":"跟委員再次感謝對這個支持所以本席在這個地方特別反對我代表臺東的居民來表達跟國防部長表達反對建造在關山的戰備跑道一案那另外"},{"start":3053.755,"end":3068.741,"text":"特別要講的是我要把這個議題延伸到我們臺東的治航基地那這個治航基地的問題在於背後裡面的原住民的議題所以在我看"},{"start":3069.321,"end":3089.335,"text":"我們臺東空軍自航基地﹐該地在以臺灣日記時代的時候﹐並無任何機場的設置﹐而當時臺灣總督府方﹐方便嚴定計劃將自航基地﹐所在區域利用炸藥挖空﹐建立大型的商港﹐"},{"start":3089.995,"end":3110.228,"text":"所以後來因為太平洋的戰事爆發而作廢那1960年代時任中華民國總統蔣中正有建議台灣所處在於國際戰略地位的重要性並在對大陸地區的作戰態勢所以因此"},{"start":3112.189,"end":3126.036,"text":"臺海的海峽貴於宅小．西部各重要的軍事基地．完全暴露在當時中國人民解放軍．雷打軍事之下．讓各項空軍戰術行動亦失去．"},{"start":3129.757,"end":3157.962,"text":"所以十分不利於空軍戰力的保存那當時我們中華民國的國軍、空軍的主力戰機部署在西部所以西部的第七的飛行因空役戰機過多容易飛行限定上產生不利所以才選擇了臺東我們國防部才選擇了臺灣臺東第七行走第四平潭可作為"},{"start":3159.103,"end":3171.516,"text":"軍用的區域經過多次的會刊國防部決定在原日記時代臺東商港興建了現今的臺東的自航基地當時這個自航基地就在1969年"},{"start":3179.502,"end":3207.163,"text":"以神醫計劃作戰計劃代號為開始規劃新的基地戰備計劃．空心在於工程1970年至動工．然後在1971年8月16日完工啟用．蔣中正親自基地命名為自航．所以當時在建蓋這個自航基地的時候．但沒有原基法"},{"start":3208.464,"end":3227.479,"text":"沒有延期法但是有一個部落原住民的部落叫嘉陸蘭部落嘉陸蘭部落就在你們的前方前方那個部落當時你們在建蓋那個時候因為戰備的需求而且情勢的緊張"},{"start":3228.76,"end":3257.35,"text":"所以當時就是建蓋在那個地方以替代把空軍的戰略能夠移到東部移到東部可是沒有想到那個地方的部落裡面產生了什麼噪音生活品質差然後加上空氣的污染造成了地方的這些反彈有很多次在這個地方抗議了很多次"},{"start":3258.49,"end":3277.655,"text":"但是我們國防部並沒有任何的回應20年前只贊助噪音20年前贊助了冷氣然後20年後聽說去年才補助一台冷氣所以如果按照我們"},{"start":3278.755,"end":3284.261,"text":"平東花蓮有關於軍用軍事基地的話一級450塊二級500塊23級600塊但能不能引用在"},{"start":3295.433,"end":3295.733,"text":"部長也回答"},{"start":3315.044,"end":3331.781,"text":"跟委員報告,委員對這個整個事情來龍去脈,真的很清楚,我也很敬佩,就是一定有當時的原因跟環境背景,那這樣很多事情造成了以後,我也很遺憾,就打著機場或者是道路來講,我們之前可能沒有做很好協調,我不知道,"},{"start":3332.341,"end":3360.511,"text":"但我們有句話,亡羊補牢未完也像剛才委員提到,不管戰備跑到,就要再去協調還有這個基地如何來補償據我了解,我們的噪音補償辦法都跟地方政府有協議當初臺東這地方,劃歸也好,第一期已經補償完畢第二期正在做當中那這個當中也有一個協議講說要等到第二期補償完畢以後再把新的辦法放進來"},{"start":3361.351,"end":3381.393,"text":"那這個當中能不能轉折我想同樣的可以經過一個溝通協調嘛我們空軍願意在這一方面啊很用力很努力的盡快的派員到我的辦公室來研究好不好因為這個經過了多少年一直沒有辦法處理可以處理的因為現在來講好我們台中嘉義台南"},{"start":3382.735,"end":3404.85,"text":"岡山、台東等機場則是以噪音的補助所以如果按照等級加入欄應該理應本來就應該要補助的然後甚至水電費用因為本席認為有查到是噪音區內的有很多的老房子無稅級用地下水向零機接電"},{"start":3405.55,"end":3406.01,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3424.315,"end":3441.901,"text":"在認定這個相關的補助的噪音的時候是從寬認定但是國防部在一百年接手之後是重演審查我說這樣的話是完全脫離了民意、罔顧人民啊部長"},{"start":3443.553,"end":3469.566,"text":"我跟委員真的很抱歉但我要說明一點我們一切都改變與否要有一個程序一定要合法像剛剛委員講的軍方為什麼那麼強硬它不強硬因為法規因為我們以前也做很多與法外做商量可是出了問題以後軍方要背負責任而這個責任講起來蠻冤枉因為到了不管成敗人或到主管要受到責備或處分這個我們於心不忍"},{"start":3470.086,"end":3470.847,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台發言"},{"start":3501.979,"end":3505.124,"text":"那謝謝主席那有請邱部長謝謝請邱部長蘇委員好邱部長好"},{"start":3521.078,"end":3538.113,"text":"好,那因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次那不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形"},{"start":3540.375,"end":3556.86,"text":"在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊"},{"start":3557.82,"end":3577.492,"text":"所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準當然在此也要呼籲很多"},{"start":3578.372,"end":3599.86,"text":"這個媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明"},{"start":3602.061,"end":3630.1,"text":"二、我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的一些經濟的衝突是比較低度的但是如果到軍事的是比較高度的所以以往我們會有一個想法就是說如果能夠在政治這邊在外交上面都夠解決的話那軍事上面應該就比較不會是一個很大的問題但是我們看到這個比較新的譬如說在2022"},{"start":3634.062,"end":3658.132,"text":"在2022這是蘭德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家"},{"start":3659.012,"end":3681.935,"text":"因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子"},{"start":3682.475,"end":3707.793,"text":"那說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事逾越的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講它反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢它已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣它會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個"},{"start":3708.973,"end":3717.178,"text":"兩邊的事情但它其實是同一件事情所以不知道部長對於現在這個政治跟軍事之間的關係有沒有一些比較新的想法"},{"start":3717.83,"end":3737.529,"text":"委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那天第一個就認知作戰的問題。"},{"start":3738.61,"end":3739.391,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3763.49,"end":3777.245,"text":"警慎的慎,我一直在強調慎戰,不是神聖的慎。警慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。"},{"start":3778.686,"end":3801.16,"text":"他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開。這就是我們的能耐。"},{"start":3802.941,"end":3827.82,"text":"謝謝部長那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這一個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的"},{"start":3828.362,"end":3848.248,"text":"那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮"},{"start":3851.329,"end":3876.93,"text":"那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧"},{"start":3878.385,"end":3907.124,"text":"因為我不知道他怎麼講的這個也是認知作戰一環他藉由這個有這個題目出來他盡量發揮我坦白講大家在做什麼各自行他的本務工作什麼以武謀獨我們都沒有參與討論我只知道國軍建軍備戰保衛國家安全是我們主要的任務所以我們為了要完成這個任務平常要強化我們的建軍備戰這就是我的觀念我沒有任何對他的講法我有什麼評論"},{"start":3908.485,"end":3909.366,"text":"感謝部長遵守言論紀律"},{"start":3924.454,"end":3939.831,"text":"其實呢在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱那這個呢但是這個例子呢就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候呢到底我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想"},{"start":3940.492,"end":3959.215,"text":"其實中國完全沒有在理會我們就他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制那這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態"},{"start":3960.917,"end":3976.455,"text":"這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶"},{"start":3977.196,"end":4005.064,"text":"那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們作為ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北越的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到"},{"start":4005.884,"end":4020.175,"text":"陳上將有帶COOPER的那一個可能是北約的我覺得那一本也不錯但在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的交戰的規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有突發狀況應變的準則"},{"start":4023.077,"end":4042.324,"text":"這個是這一個RE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補"},{"start":4044.385,"end":4062.714,"text":"但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":4063.354,"end":4092.523,"text":"那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白批書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白批書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了它地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是陳副官委員講了他中共會認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了"},{"start":4093.163,"end":4110.535,"text":"我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且"},{"start":4111.653,"end":4129.221,"text":"不能算我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚"},{"start":4129.801,"end":4150.777,"text":"不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚,平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個signoria,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。"},{"start":4152.159,"end":4167.476,"text":"謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案"},{"start":4168.997,"end":4189.674,"text":"就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼"},{"start":4190.305,"end":4208.492,"text":"我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個不管團體或國家願意幫我們都是一個正面的看法,我們都要見。但這個授權法案也好,或者強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。"},{"start":4211.673,"end":4239.355,"text":"不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的資源共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個著眼沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":4244.348,"end":4245.029,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員上台發言"},{"start":4291.628,"end":4319.324,"text":"有請邱部長請邱部長最近提到很多有關武裝衝突法有關接戰規定的規則那麼剛才在前面的委員質詢中間甚至把歷史人物、國外的戰略家講的"},{"start":4321.211,"end":4334.884,"text":"軍事是政治的延伸這些話都套進來了那我這邊呢做一個建言第一個在國防外交的領域啊就是國家安全事務裡面沒有用光譜這個字Spectrum是"},{"start":4335.805,"end":4364.8,"text":"工程科技的名詞也就是說國家安全的光譜這個話有這樣用嗎沒有就是國家安全的範疇跟領域同樣在軍事用語上軍事與政治上面應該用的是範疇跟領域而不是用光譜只有科技工程才就用光譜叫Spectrum這個字但現在在政治學上很多人喜歡把這個工程的名詞導入變成政治的光譜我建言第一個不要使用這個"},{"start":4366.397,"end":4380.669,"text":"第二點就是有關前次提出的標準作業程序因為它是針對各單位各獨立個案的規定那麼它並沒有橫向跨單位跨部會協調的"},{"start":4382.19,"end":4382.891,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4399.872,"end":4400.072,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4416.732,"end":4416.772,"text":"是,謝謝委員"},{"start":4443.001,"end":4468.213,"text":"那麼ROE連帶出來就產生了一個共同圖像那麼前次我們在大會也提到部長也重視這個那麼這個有關的前提目標方法跟手段我在這邊不做細數我就用幾個圖像做舉例第一個各位看到這張圖啊已經是套疊了4層那麼顯示了朝鮮半島"},{"start":4470.373,"end":4497.338,"text":"東海日本防空識別區韓國防空識別區中國大陸在2013年的11月23號發布的東海防空識別區那麼台灣的防空識別區以及菲律賓的防空識別區所以這張的大範疇的圖可以做一個基礎圖我們到時候也可以提供物理做參考在這個上面我們在看到有關南海的問題了也就是說"},{"start":4498.922,"end":4527.475,"text":"原來我們是11段線那麼中國大陸當初跟北越因為建立關係取消了變9段線後來他又把它台灣東岸他去畫一條第10段線但這個裡面的原圖原本是美國國務院製造出來的它裡面有各地的領海基線所以這個圖呢就等於說我們跟外交部跟海巡跟執法單位甚至是國安局我們可以共同分享"},{"start":4529.107,"end":4539.599,"text":"那這張圖原本是一個偽造圖我們把它變成一個單色套上台灣跟南海再把剛才這個圖再套上去特別把"},{"start":4544.577,"end":4570.64,"text":"東沙跟南沙的衛照再點上去我們可以建議將來用這種方式對於在決策過程的長官能夠了解相關的位置然後再套上你的機密資料平常只是一個單純的底圖這張圖就顯示了中國大陸的基地以及訓練空域包括紅色虛線的東海防空識別區"},{"start":4572.123,"end":4595.489,"text":"剛才前面委員所說的灰色地帶有些是屬於防空識別區的重疊區那在這個裏面製造的困擾對我方的反應是一種消耗當然你除了監控、監偵以外因為中國大陸他可以對外講我在國際民航組織的圖已經畫上這個所以原本是區塊"},{"start":4597.113,"end":4617.251,"text":"原本是灰色地帶可能在法律上會變成灰色區塊的論述我想國防部在這個地方除了我們的作戰計畫參謀次長室以外未來以及我們的法制司在國際法上面的引述可以利用ROE裡面的一些條例跟範例來充實這個"},{"start":4621.65,"end":4637.198,"text":"各位看到這個就是經下水道的圖因為是已經經過坐標校正了所以有方格有經緯度那我們再套碟再套上衛星再套上當時這是某年某月某天的海上活動船"},{"start":4638.539,"end":4658.799,"text":"現在因為很多的軟體程式都可以點了就進入可以查核它是哪一艘是商船或是不明目標根據這個不同的圖套疊加上海底水深可是現在產生了一個結果就是包括海巡用的圖跟我們海軍用的圖甚至陸委會發布的圖"},{"start":4660.501,"end":4680.093,"text":"他有坐標顯示但是沒有統一調效所以將來這個要請我們的製圖單位、校正單位把發生事件以後每個單位的圖我們做一個調整最後用一份最終的校正圖因為像這張圖例上面是陸委會的圖"},{"start":4681.497,"end":4708.295,"text":"雖然標了經緯度的數字但是並沒有校正所以以這個方式最後呢來收斂這個結果未來回溯過程中間對於執法過程哪些是解釋的落差哪些是圖像的落差那麼最後能夠做一個收斂那麼我認為在國防部來講在整體的我們的領海問題境限制水域方面"},{"start":4709.156,"end":4730.937,"text":"作為一個橫向跨部會協調海委會協調國安局大家能夠得到一個共識這樣子比較周延請教部長對這個看法我跟委員報告真的很感激而且對會委員提供這些資料我馬上就有一個概念就是說現在任何工作推動絕對不是單方面單打獨鬥的"},{"start":4731.798,"end":4753.536,"text":"所以剛剛委員提了這個共同圖像運用要召集哪些人可能不是國防部一個單位可以完成所以我們一定會把這個問題跟管國安會建議因為裡面剛剛委員點到幾個不管外交、國安、海巡還有內政、還有陸委會這些都是有必要加入的因為這個產制加入共同圖像大家認知一樣"},{"start":4754.417,"end":4765.583,"text":"但有任何狀況處理起來就不會好像變成一個好像有點不能講爛的套最起碼有點全者不分的樣所以這一點特別跟委員報告我們這個後續絕對會拔給接續做下去讓各部會多一個統一的一個依據"},{"start":4772.709,"end":4787.613,"text":"那我最後就提出剛才先前跟您的一個建言就是我們不要用國防、外交跟國安的光譜那是範疇跟領域我了解,好好不好?是好,以上,謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們陳永康委員的發言接下來我們請馬文君委員來發言"},{"start":4824.516,"end":4824.896,"text":"邱國正報告"},{"start":4835.994,"end":4857.899,"text":"發言好邱部長好邱部長今天大家在討論我們的一個應處作為就是在目前共軍還有基建侵擾我方的海域也好空域也好造成的這些相關的應處作為我想我們報告裡面有提到那部長也多方"},{"start":4858.359,"end":4859.36,"text":"對於我們現在目前的環境,我們要應處,其實這個也是非常的重要。"},{"start":4879.031,"end":4884.016,"text":"在依據2023年美國財政年度綜合撥款法案裡面所授權的要提供我國每年最多20億美元額度的"},{"start":4895.467,"end":4896.588,"text":"外國軍事融資現在已經有提供我們8000萬美元的融資額度而且可能在上一批裡面其實已經有運送過來裡面當然國防部對於我們有一些"},{"start":4913.515,"end":4919.557,"text":"對美國當然還是競表感謝那基於臺美的默契是沒有評論可是對於我們來說這個我想要請教的是我覺得這個也是我們全體國人應該要知道的尤其立法院因為這個牽涉到是不是會動用到我們的預算而且有很多的面向記得在之前"},{"start":4937.253,"end":4962.56,"text":"有詢問過部長部長也在立法院也答覆就是不是美國的軍援我們都會照單全收因為硬塞給我們是沒有意義的這個部長有說過嘛就這一批裝備來看我想請教的是這是無償是要不要付錢八千萬美元"},{"start":4963.2,"end":4967.844,"text":"這一部分是無償的那無償的就牽涉到部長所說的這是不是我們需要的因為他塞給我們這個怕有一些問題因為雖然國防部沒有證實可是媒體信誓旦旦的提到了幾個比如說像刺針飛彈比如說像戰鬥各裝還有兩兩四棟等等其實這些是有曝露出來了"},{"start":4990.541,"end":4994.145,"text":"這個會不會牽涉到延壽或者未來的料配件或者因為他來我們不可能把它露天隨便擺放你還要蓋庫房那後勤的維保等等這個到底給了我們什麼樣的東西是不是我們要的我們還要增加多少剛剛我提到的這些後續的預算我們有計算過嗎這真的是我們符合我們需求的嗎"},{"start":5015.905,"end":5037.887,"text":"好,我跟委員報告,委員剛剛講了兩點,第一個我現在講一下,我們軍事經常講到劣勢鬥技具,就戰略、戰術、戰鬥、戰技跟戰具由上到下是一個指導,我有怎麼樣一個戰略構想,我要指導你戰術作為如何,由上向下,但由下往上的話叫支持"},{"start":5038.507,"end":5062.779,"text":"我要有的戰距才能夠練這個戰距所以一步一步這個層次很分明所以我剛當初講的到現在沒有變不想說他對我們有的軍援或任何一個好處我們不會照單全說一定經過討論所感激的不光我們國防部跟他討論而且國防部還透過各部會你們怎麼樣能夠共用的這是絕對很重要這是第一個"},{"start":5063.379,"end":5064.52,"text":"所以他會不會用掉我們的很多的預算?"},{"start":5094.238,"end":5103.791,"text":"因為他一定是舊的嘛現有的庫存的嘛庫存但絕對堪用的因為堪用我們剛剛提到他可能有延壽的問題他可能後勤為保會造成比較大的負擔因為"},{"start":5110.014,"end":5129.125,"text":"不用錢就是貴啦我們用咖啡機來舉例啦現在有很多他會送你咖啡機可是他咖啡都特別貴你又不用不行所以這個部分是我們要考慮的這也是我們非常重視部長當初說的不是他要給我們什麼我們都要收那這裡面有沒有是真非淡"},{"start":5130.756,"end":5131.777,"text":"美國的年度預算裡面在最新的報導就是有獨立台灣國務院他們在"},{"start":5158.339,"end":5183.601,"text":"通過的這個預算裡面其實有1億元就是年度預算這個部分美國另外一邊1億元的這個對台軍援那就這個部分國務院的副國務卿也提到他說年度預算讓美國能夠持續投資國力基礎"},{"start":5184.813,"end":5203.847,"text":"而且跟志同道合的夥伴強化共同的利益,盡一切可能在競爭中勝過中國。從這段話裡面也赤裸裸的直接表明,其實台灣可能是美國想要在跟中國競爭當中所勝出的一個工具。"},{"start":5207.27,"end":5223.647,"text":"因為在這些基礎或者像它的這個軍援那就這個部分這一億元之前那個八千萬美元是無償的那這一億元是有償還是無償也一樣是無償它這個有關這個法案"},{"start":5224.648,"end":5245.027,"text":"對我們最大利處就是說,第一個我們要什麼可以討論,我們不會招攬全收,而且他給的絕對不講廢品等等,不會。另外就我們因為無償,所以將來不會有任何的顧慮。而且我想這一方面細節部分還是要拜託委員,我們派專人去跟您做說明。"},{"start":5245.787,"end":5273.731,"text":"我們現在就討論的部分有場無場嘛因為在他通過的法案裡面其實是分兩種有一種是無場的有一種是有場的就是要融資的那融資的部分就我們的預算法裡面其實不管是借貸或者各方面你的稅入稅出所有的支出是必須經過立法院因為這個牽涉到我們所有整體的預算所以如果是融資的部分必須要讓全民知道這個部分國防部可以做到嗎"},{"start":5274.131,"end":5293.626,"text":"這個一定的,我們也怕給你將來變成一個源頭,因為如此要付出什麼費用,我們絕對不會接受。就算假如有的話,我們也會跟會裡面做一個報告,不會貿然的去做決定,這點可以保證。"},{"start":5294.286,"end":5296.769,"text":"好 那就這些部分因為我想這個牽涉到我們後續還有非常多的武器裝備因為我們付出的我們的需求到目前為止美方可能還欠缺的還是非常非常多還沒有交給我們"},{"start":5310.788,"end":5317.912,"text":"所以就這兩個部分我們希望可以做一個平衡而不是他庫存的一直提供給我們那現在是有說明說是無償可是我們還是希望在後續比如說後勤的維保還有料配件他既然是庫存的料配件的取得也許也是我們要擔憂的所以這些"},{"start":5331.699,"end":5340.103,"text":"也請到時候在辦公室做一些說明就好那另外就是我們現在面臨到非常多的像越界的問題這個不會因為即使海巡的這個問題解決了以後它持續還是會發生不管是在我們的空域也好在我們的海域也好我們周邊的海疆也好其實都會不斷的發生那目前這個越界捕撈或者說像海巡署也證實了"},{"start":5360.231,"end":5384.92,"text":"之前他們的漁船已經進到我們六海里的一個地方而且中國的挖泥船也一直不斷的出沒在威嚇我們禁縣制的這個水域那就這些狀況來看我們國防部要如何跟海巡這邊做一個適切的搭配因為像之前三艘大的漁船進來其實顯然"},{"start":5386.721,"end":5409.5,"text":"海巡已經沒有很多的人力資源可以去應付尤其除了像我剛剛講的除了像他如果進來的不是軍艦如果是他們最讓大家覺得威脅最深的就是小藍人他也不是軍艦可是他又是重型漁船至少都500噸以上"},{"start":5411.201,"end":5428.472,"text":"其實這個在在如果他在北中南各放20艘我們大概就疲於奔命那海巡在沒有辦法自己去面對處置的時候國防部這邊會有什麼樣的一個方向方式可以跟他們做一個銜接的處應處作為嗎"},{"start":5429.893,"end":5453.539,"text":"委員剛才問到一個重點,我們跟海軍怎麼樣搭配,怎麼樣互相協調問題。這平常我們有一個協定,要怎麼樣撞一下我們海軍會去支援。但是這個支援有個界定,除非他有武裝,我們要以武裝來對他武裝。但目前為止,剛剛還有委員所假定的,這都是在這個法,在執法當中會遇到的。"},{"start":5454.119,"end":5478.072,"text":"那現在海巡有任何問題他跟我們聯絡平常情報就有交換都通聯的一旦要的話我們就要保持在一個範圍以內提供他旁邊還有什麼狀況或提供他要必要的資源的話更加接近或去做一個很有實質效果的幫他做一個防築但原則上講說只要對方沒有用軍事裝備的話我們國軍不疑"},{"start":5482.214,"end":5500.052,"text":"因為這個一定是一個執法跟軍事作戰是完全不一樣的我們也謹慎的來面對部長當然我們也不希望有太多的壓力給我們所有的我們國防部或者海巡因為我們也知道現有的一個處境的狀況可是因為現在慢慢的從過去24、12、6、3、2"},{"start":5506.938,"end":5514.2,"text":"他越來越近他如果即使不是軍艦可能對我們還是有一些壓力跟影響就這個部分我們也希望除了在我們的國防單位海巡單位其實應該要去面對以外怎麼樣去做更好的一個溝通因為我說美中的競爭這麼多剛剛部長也提到其實領導人應該要有智慧去做一個政策的一個"},{"start":5535.426,"end":5535.486,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5551.724,"end":5551.924,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5582.044,"end":5582.324,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5604.738,"end":5604.878,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5622.987,"end":5623.307,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5641.252,"end":5661.683,"text":"用公開招標好多家都有資格所以我在這裡要特別強調的是我們不要利用不幸的事件做一些不對的事情在這裡我特別請部長再去做一些瞭解那如果有什麼樣的疏失我們也希望不要再犯同樣的這樣的錯誤我們接下來還會有一些時間來探討我們一些"},{"start":5666.646,"end":5687.583,"text":"主要的武器裝備的採購他產生的問題那這一部分先提出來請部長可以瞭解一下我跟委員報也跟主席建議一下我給幾秒鐘我做一個簡單的說明第一個我要說的是國軍絕對不會利用某個世界利用這個時候做他平常做不到或要強化的"},{"start":5688.504,"end":5717.891,"text":"因為這個就很難聽了利用這個危害部長我也補充一下我不是說國軍我說有心人是就想說我們都一個遺憾那後面防處以後裡面為什麼裝備要緊急採購或採購項目為什麼價格不一樣這我們會派人再次再跟委員做一個很清楚的一個說明事實上有幾位委員也很關切我們也分別海軍派去以後經過這樣說明他也了解了"},{"start":5718.351,"end":5740.117,"text":"但我還是很感激委員對這件事情關切我們會把這個來龍去脈為什麼會造成這個事情然後後面補救的方法詳細跟委員做報告好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝馬文清委員的發言接下來我們請羅美玲委員來發言"},{"start":5750.762,"end":5759.804,"text":"謝謝主席有請邱部長還有海巡署周署長也就是我們海委會的副主委有請邱部長還有海巡署"},{"start":5765.816,"end":5792.379,"text":"陸委員好部長早部委員早署長早本席也是要針對這個我們海軍跟海巡在海上執法的時候我們要如何分工這議題跟兩位做一個探討那剛剛我在那個報告裡面看得很清楚就是說有關於海軍支援海巡海域的這執法方面我們還是堅守著海巡對海巡"},{"start":5793.41,"end":5819.739,"text":"就是海軍對海軍的這個最大的這個原則剛剛在報告裡面我們有看到這個部分那本席有看到一份這個有關於2月27號的一個報導也就是說中共有三艘的這個海警船在2月27號的時候直接就進犯到我國東部的這個海域那媒體第一時間在報導就是說當下沒有"},{"start":5822.6,"end":5824.142,"text":"海巡署沒有派艦艇過去,但後來海巡署也看到後續的澄清"},{"start":5841.338,"end":5858.626,"text":"那天其實有派了這個南投艦前去了而且呢也有通報這個海軍那我有看到有一位中華戰略學會資深研究員就是張靜他對這部分其實做了很大的一個批判他就認為說應該就是白色海軍對白色海軍"},{"start":5860.487,"end":5871.276,"text":"指法艦艇對指法艦艇海巡對海巡他覺得海軍派了這個諾克斯級艦去攔阻中共的海警船其實我們就是把這個遊戲規則搞壞了這說法請問部長請問署長你們同意嗎你們認為說你們這是在破壞遊戲規則嗎"},{"start":5881.244,"end":5897.23,"text":"我跟委員報告,從頭到尾,我們有什麼主動過,那天不曉得我們派出海軍去對他那個東西,我們剛有報告,平常就固定在這個不管海峽或者東北或者南端,我們都有派我們的海軍徵詢艦在那邊"},{"start":5898.45,"end":5901.193,"text":"那整個過程可以清楚說明一下嗎那件事件"},{"start":5914.588,"end":5917.609,"text":"我們後來有發一個聲明稿我們整個台灣周遭的海域每天都有固定的海軍的偵詢艦跟海巡的偵詢艦"},{"start":5931.454,"end":5954.696,"text":"不同的位置不同的時間那天那個東部的海域是屬於海軍的62點溝支隊也就是168艦隊所屬管轄的範圍那他所派的那天的偵巡的艦艇是諾克斯艦我為什麼會這麼熟悉呢我幹過62點溝支隊的支隊長所以我了解這個整個作業的流程"},{"start":5956.339,"end":5984.278,"text":"外界所傳的這個不是一個事實因為這三艘船從花蓮正東開始進來的時候它一直都沒有進入到24海里的臨界區的這個線所以它這個訊息是錯誤的另外在一個禮拜之前國防部就完全掌握這三艘船在我們的東南海域執行一個操演所以我們一直都有掌握這三艘船"},{"start":5984.798,"end":6012.631,"text":"一直到那天﹖所以並不是媒體所報導﹖當然不是﹖當時我們的藍頭艦在釣魚台水域負責釣魚台水域的這個偵詢任務當海軍跟我們在海上互相通聯之後瞭解這三艘船會靠近到24海里的時候海軍諾克斯艦這就是他第二點溝之內的巡防的區域他當時就在那附近他就在那邊採取並行監控"},{"start":6014.372,"end":6037.824,"text":"我們同時就調南投艦直接從釣魚台海域東北角直接往下開來接替這個任務後面當我們的船到現場之後跟海軍的諾克斯交接之後我們就一路護送他從這個鵬家嶼海域他轉西北離開我們的近縣制水域但是在這中間在早上"},{"start":6038.404,"end":6041.026,"text":"這過程當中都沒有任何的衝突嗎?都沒有,完全沒有,而且我們完全是在並行監控"},{"start":6055.455,"end":6083.098,"text":"後續我有聽到報導說我們海巡其實也有廣播驅離他只要一旦進入水域我們一定按照我們的標準作業程序做廣播做驅離同時那天我們立刻就處理我們在臺北港已經備變了一個宜蘭艦我們的處置是只要他一旦進入二次海域宜蘭艦立刻從臺北港出來"},{"start":6084.181,"end":6111.169,"text":"我們就是臺北港的宜蘭艦加上南投艦一併加上海軍的這個濟洋級艦就可以跟他一路的並航監控他一直到他脫離到我們的水域為止所以這個是那天整個的實情而且這個實情如果說要掌握我們跟海軍簽有海上的這些資源協定所以他很早就已經把這些資訊就告知我們"},{"start":6111.889,"end":6112.73,"text":"所以一切都在我們的掌握當中"},{"start":6130.29,"end":6148.37,"text":"我相信這個學者也好這個專家也好他一定是片面的他不了解我們內部的作業程序因為我們內部作業流程只有我們跟海軍會知道國防部會知道那我們怎麼樣採取的處置這些都是我們日常每天都會遭遇的"},{"start":6151.674,"end":6162.685,"text":"軍事與非軍事,目前我們與國防部略定得非常清楚,只要是屬於軍艦,或從事與軍事有關活動的,是由國防部的軍艦來對應。"},{"start":6166.749,"end":6167.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6186.354,"end":6213.848,"text":"如果他平常是在一個不敏感的水域那這種時候國防部跟我們會有個溝通一定是海巡去處理但如果今天這些船是跟著他的軍事的船團在一起或者在某一個特定的水域特定的時間他在某一個地方出現那國防部如果認定這個水域這個時間是敏感的那國防部也會派軍艦去處理那海巡的船體一定是在24里內"},{"start":6216.195,"end":6241.287,"text":"來對應的採取並行平行航行監控的一個作為以上特別跟委員做個說明謝謝署長非常清楚的這個說明所以以後遇到類似這種狀況我也希望有關單位要第一時間跳出來清楚就像剛剛這樣子清楚的這個說明那再來剛我有提到就是說其實當天我們有派了這個"},{"start":6242.455,"end":6258.287,"text":"南投艦,我想請問一下南投艦的噸數是多少?六百噸。六百噸。那天出現的三,但是說那天沒有出現任何的這個衝突,可是那天呢,這三艘的這個海警船,它是包括了3450噸級的2303、2304,還有3980噸級的2305。"},{"start":6267.413,"end":6288.484,"text":"我想請教一下,如果真的雙方有所衝突的時候,我們在這個量級上面或是說戰力上面,我們是不是有很大的落差?各位委員特別聲明,最近有很多都在報導,是不是這些盾位的影響,或者是他有船艦炮力,他的武力或比我們強,但我想我們的重點是在執法。"},{"start":6289.504,"end":6316.587,"text":"我們如何執法才是個重點他如果違反規定即使他有再多的這個大炮跟火箭我們還是要執法只要他如果違反了我們中華民國的規定我們當然要執法這個跟船的大小無關過去這麼多的時間以內我想我們在海上的行動不是單一的行動海巡對應這些船隻的時候海軍的艦艇一直在旁邊"},{"start":6317.668,"end":6328.45,"text":"海軍這些對應的艦艇有相當的對應的武力但我們還有很多暗自的設施那這些暗自的設施對這些每一個目標我相信"},{"start":6331.886,"end":6347.871,"text":"所以海軍永遠還是會站在海巡的背後當我們的這個後盾是不是?因為我們有看到說其實像盾數說實在的真的是非常的不對稱而且我們所知道的像中國的這個海警船大部分都是他們這個都是他們的海軍的這個艦隊然後退役之後呢再給他改"},{"start":6354.353,"end":6363.584,"text":"我跟委員補充報告一下他不是退役以後他是把現用的艦艇甚至還在造船廠造的軍艦直接改裝成海警艦也有是舊的"},{"start":6372.534,"end":6372.814,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6396.679,"end":6425.999,"text":"據我們所掌握的資料大概有34艘這樣子由軍艦直接轉換為這個海警船的我想中國大陸在2019年他從國家海洋局把這個海警這個單位直接轉換為在中央軍委會指揮之下之後他就有一個很大的改變那這樣子大的改變我相信是為了便宜他未來可能要在海上遭遇到很多的"},{"start":6426.779,"end":6427.859,"text":"中共的所謂的海警艦艇其實已經是帶著其實由海軍"},{"start":6454.181,"end":6466.13,"text":"海軍這個戰力了嗎?對不對?它的一些武器系統也是有拆除的保留最大的口徑應該是76炮吧應該是76炮口徑已經很大了我跟委員報告"},{"start":6473.756,"end":6499.917,"text":"當然我相信他們這樣子的一個應處作為也是為了因應未來這個他們要想擴大維權在南海在東海在這個周邊海域執法的一個所需那我們最近可以看到很多不管是在菲律賓海域或者是在釣魚台附近海域他們所執行的大型的這種海警船都是類似像這樣子的船隻大概有130艘左右"},{"start":6500.618,"end":6515.603,"text":"那麼這裡面有34艘我想大概那個比例大概可以佔到百分之30左右這樣子是由軍艦改裝的那這個都是我們未來必須要面對到的這個威脅跟挑戰"},{"start":6518.228,"end":6541.49,"text":"是,非常的辛苦,我相信海巡也好,海軍也好,真的是非常的辛苦尤其呢,這個中國最近對海峽中線這個部分呢,它表示不存在,它表態不存在那等同打破了過去的這個平衡面,所以我在想未來我方的海巡、海軍跟空軍可能在執法方面都會非常的辛苦,而且更加的複雜大家加油,謝謝是,謝謝"},{"start":6551.405,"end":6577.953,"text":"謝謝不過我們也希望海巡相關單位因為最近還是事情比較多不要有過度樂觀或者避重就輕的一個說法因為這樣好像也跟之前的說法有一些矛盾那在這裡詳細的一些資料我們也請海巡到時候再提供給本委員會我們再提出一些相關的要求接下來請林楚英委員上台發言"},{"start":6588.801,"end":6597.69,"text":"謝謝主席：主席有請邱部長以及我們海巡署的周署長請邱部長還有周署長、周副主委"},{"start":6605.61,"end":6621.115,"text":"委員早部長早副主委早今天早上是不是在我們的金門的限制水域有中國籍的漁船翻覆有這樣的情況嗎?有街道通報嗎?那整體的事件是怎麼發生的?"},{"start":6623.597,"end":6646.911,"text":"我跟委員做個報告我們今天早上在6點02分的時候接獲到國修中心的通知那麼在我們東定西南方1點03海裏的水域也就是在我們禁縣制水域內0點3海裏的位置有一艘陸船翻覆那麼請我們提供救援的協助"},{"start":6647.671,"end":6674.482,"text":"所以他們是一個他們自己在行駛在我們禁制水域內的一個漁船翻覆那麼他通知的時候是有5個船員在上面已經全部落海半浮半沉那我們立即就派出我們的線上艇因為我們每天24小時有線上艇一個35頓艇立刻就前往去救援同時我們從我們廖羅直接再派出"},{"start":6675.162,"end":6677.623,"text":"所以目前最近收就的情況是什麼現在目前他原來是"},{"start":6692.29,"end":6714.273,"text":"告訴我們是五個人,但是我們馬上跟我們的對口單位,叫漳州的海事聯絡單位去確認今天早上所有的狀況,那麼他跟我們講是六位,那麼我們就一再的查證到底是六位還是五位,那最後我們跟福州的NRCC就他的一個救援單位"},{"start":6715.134,"end":6735.861,"text":"他通知我們是6位也就是說我們海巡對海巡的一個對口單位給我們的資訊是正確的那在我報告的同時我們現在陸方已經救起兩個生還者兩個這個死亡者這兩個死亡者有一個是由我們東定的守備部隊"},{"start":6736.641,"end":6758.764,"text":"因為事發的同時我就在秦始中心下令請我們的巡防區立刻通知東定的這個守備部隊叫他所有的人力到岸際去搜索因為他離東定島的岸際不到一海裏所以我主觀的判斷我們如果用高倍的望遠鏡看是可以看到這些人的那所以"},{"start":6761.026,"end":6776.473,"text":"有一個人在我們西南的角域海域我們的守軍就立刻要下去救這個人很不幸已經沒有生命跡象就由陸方的搜救艦給他帶走目前還有兩個"},{"start":6777.734,"end":6805.35,"text":"人現在是下落不明那目前我們已經在剛剛10分鐘前我們已經準備潛水人員下去準備潛水到船艙內去看所以目前如果說您所知道的資料就是在這艘船上面有6人有4人已經尋獲不論生或死另外還有2人是失蹤的狀態現在是失蹤還正在搜尋那我們現在都全力在跟陸方一起在共同在搜尋"},{"start":6805.95,"end":6820.285,"text":"好所以在剛剛周副主委的回答底下邱部長其實事實上我們國軍在這樣的通報當中也有進行協助的救援跟搜救的任務包括其實也有一些安全的防衛對不對因為陸方"},{"start":6823.548,"end":6849.273,"text":"所以說中國的部分他一定也有派出相關的搜救機那麼在我們安全防衛當然這是一個人道救援的狀況但是就像今天我們前面幾位同仁都不斷的在詢問的就是當灰色地帶或是兩岸對峙的情況底下發生了這種所謂不幸的事件的時候一方面他們出動救援但是救援會不會還有夾帶其他的任務偵查其實對於國軍來說是兩邊"},{"start":6852.035,"end":6853.109,"text":"都有警覺的是嗎?"},{"start":6853.96,"end":6862.646,"text":"所以我想請問部長就是今天早上這個事件獲得通報之後我們做了哪些的監控又或者做了哪些是監控哪些是救援部分的協助"},{"start":6882.518,"end":6883.999,"text":"所以對中國來說中國這邊他有出動搜救機嗎?"},{"start":6909.085,"end":6911.193,"text":"沒有可能後來又出來"},{"start":6915.353,"end":6941.449,"text":"好,那麼面對中國當然出現搜救機那麼我們在國防這邊有什麼樣的因應嗎?國軍這裡沒有,因為這邊已經很確認了第一,它這個機具不是軍用的第二,它人員也並沒有進犯的完全一個人道方面的處理我們能夠配合協助的哪怕把這事撈上來以後該要後續處理的我們絕對是做人道方面的工作"},{"start":6942.229,"end":6962.421,"text":"在這裡其實要給海巡跟國軍的弟兄一個肯定其實面對中國的步步禁閉甚至於威脅但是確定這是一艘所謂的中國級漁船而且它是需要人道救援的時候其實不論是海巡弟兄或者是國軍弟兄第一線站在人道救援的立場上其實都是給予協助所以我必須要講的署長其實在這過程當中我們都還在討論三無船對岸還在給我們的臉色看"},{"start":6968.624,"end":6976.265,"text":"但是真的今天一早在禁制水域發生了這樣的事件的時候大家其實第一時間還是以救人為主對不對"},{"start":6977.413,"end":7006.008,"text":"當然這是我們平常的任務之一救生救難就是我們的任務之一尤其是今夏這個水域是一個很狹窄的水域如果雙方不能夠合作的話那很多事情都很難處理所以為什麼在過去這20多年我們跟對方的海事執法單位能夠有這麼好的一個溝通跟互相通聯的一個機制也就是當這種緊急事故發生的時候我們可以第一時間"},{"start":7007.088,"end":7017.403,"text":"互通有無,然後他派遣的這些救援的是哪些?我們派遣的救援是哪些?因為救援要看水流,像今天就是向東的流,"},{"start":7020.638,"end":7037.797,"text":"向東的流有兩節的流速那麼通常兩節的流速基本上我們的潛水人員就沒有辦法下去做這個潛水因為我們的限制是在一節但是我們今天還是要全力來救這個可能生還者"},{"start":7038.297,"end":7061.653,"text":"所以我們要求他們綁上我們的這個安全鎖然後我們希望在可行的範圍之內我們盡量去救爭取黃金的救援時間那麼剛剛最新的回報這一艘船已經慢慢因為流的影響已經靠近到我們的這個東定島西南的岸際那如果說在退潮之後我相信東定的守軍"},{"start":7062.754,"end":7081.409,"text":"他早上已經全部動員了全部在暗記做搜索我相信跟我們海巡會協力把這個船艙內的整個狀況做一個瞭解那目前我們的潛水人員已經在水中備備隨時只要是流向可行我們就會潛進這個船艙裡面去搜索"},{"start":7082.229,"end":7100.359,"text":"這都是我們日常應該做好的一件事情其實從總署長的發言我也希望對岸中國能夠聽得到我們對於真的是人道救援的部分我們絕對也是同理心的第一時間來出動來做協助但是以本席的資料"},{"start":7101.46,"end":7128.572,"text":"的整理就會發現說中國的船隻非法越界其實層出不窮對於海巡或者是鎮守我們海域的這些海軍弟兄們來說其實都是相當疲憊不堪的那中國這種另外一邊像今天早上所發生的我們確切已經證實到了確實就是漁船翻覆的不幸事件所以我們第一時間來救援來成員但是"},{"start":7129.412,"end":7136.376,"text":"之前發生的包括這種非法的三無船又或者是過去這種所謂灰色地帶的行動這個海上民兵到底兩者之間這種8年來超過1.7萬艘的中國民兵船或者是海警囂張的行為製造灰色衝突的時候我想就叫部長跟署長在這兩者之間的時候我們如何判定"},{"start":7160.441,"end":7165.387,"text":"海警、海巡跟海軍目前就我們所收集的樣態來看,他現在已經"},{"start":7168.308,"end":7170.088,"text":"每次每一種不同的狀況發生的時候如果委員還記得的話"},{"start":7197.674,"end":7223.116,"text":"在前不久,過年前後,選舉前後,他們曾經派了一艘拖船在離高雄港6海里,3海里的附近那火腿族有聽到,也是那時候對海巡有很多的不諒解,說為什麼我們沒有處理他從還沒有進入到我們24海里,我們的船就一直伴隨他,因為他後面拖帶了一艘很大的一個,拖了一個船"},{"start":7223.877,"end":7240.213,"text":"那如果在那種狀況下我們去登檢它或者停止它那個大船比它拖船大很多可能會有海上維安的顧慮同時那個風浪是很壞的那天的風浪是八級到十級所以在海上的判斷當中其實海巡這邊會有不同的專業"},{"start":7244.557,"end":7265.934,"text":"我們也都有我們這些跨單位都有做一些資料庫當我們在空中或者海上或者其他的管道我們得知這樣子的一個船隻我們第一件事情就要判定它是不是民兵船它是不是對我們有企圖的情報船因為可能任何一個漁船都可能是民兵船"},{"start":7266.474,"end":7270.135,"text":"任何的預算我們從外觀不好意思,我必須要打斷你因為我要留一點時間來問一下部長部長,那麼所以就如同剛剛署長所說的這個判斷有很多的層次但是如果灰色衝突不斷的製造跟產生的時候您過去也提到就像前幾天所講的我們的第一集的這樣的定義有所改變的時候那麼在面對像這樣的海上灰色衝突的時候會變更您的定義嗎?"},{"start":7294.984,"end":7316.884,"text":"不會,因為我所謂的要做這個第一集航空跟海航實體這沒有變,但是程序要走啊,我們不能說略過程序,飄過一個木板我們越打,那不就離得,程序不會變,所以更加密切合作,而我們國軍徵軍的方法,除橫指所能掌控以外,"},{"start":7317.645,"end":7333.188,"text":"各地它有雷達或者有目視的還有透過我們不管是電展室、軍營局等等我們勤事單位都可以收整一終整完以後就可以判斷它來的原因在哪裡,有無敵意"},{"start":7333.609,"end":7351.116,"text":"好我最後一個問題就是那麼在就以海上的這樣一個情況來講的時候在判斷的過程的流程SOP是海巡署獲得資訊之後提供給國防部又或者是一個什麼樣的流程決定了是不是惡意的第1集必須要有一些更嚴厲的拉高這個所謂軍事的行動"},{"start":7356.835,"end":7381.553,"text":"這個情勢交換是不停的沒有講他給我我們給他又或者馬上通報這就平常在演練的過程當中又橫向一個聯絡就納在訓練的過程當中在因為有這個過程所以這個當中啊他就會做研判這些人都是專業人員不管海上的也好海軍也好都很專業的我們的敵我識別都很容易被判明"},{"start":7382.273,"end":7396.678,"text":"加上他是一個來意不善的那我們該要警告的該要喊話的這個程序還不聽那最後就已經不期望看到的事情那可能就要罰罪了好 謝謝部長辛苦謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":7406.479,"end":7415.657,"text":"我們接下來先宣告等一下賴世寶委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7427.999,"end":7437.534,"text":"謝謝主席,那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長,周署長請邱部長、周署長"},{"start":7446.974,"end":7473.485,"text":"委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了那兩岸要不斷的去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化"},{"start":7474.36,"end":7477.964,"text":"那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估,現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估"},{"start":7496.363,"end":7497.943,"text":"等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長"},{"start":7522.228,"end":7547.564,"text":"就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的"},{"start":7548.004,"end":7557.013,"text":"那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼"},{"start":7558.197,"end":7581.193,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加數量沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話他是減少百分之三十幾的"},{"start":7581.613,"end":7603.347,"text":"所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它"},{"start":7604.588,"end":7630.944,"text":"常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在"},{"start":7632.982,"end":7652.988,"text":"動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握"},{"start":7655.909,"end":7681.779,"text":"同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦"},{"start":7683.42,"end":7709.937,"text":"三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎沒有你要看所有的狀況當然你不同的水域不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的"},{"start":7712.54,"end":7732.9,"text":"是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為,像青梅海域像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向青梅靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控"},{"start":7734.361,"end":7739.563,"text":"如果這些船在海上一轉好之後它就離開我們就認知它是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說它在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級、7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會派過去去理這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們 署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長"},{"start":7764.073,"end":7786.956,"text":"就是說呢為什麼我會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料"},{"start":7787.617,"end":7812.455,"text":"但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔"},{"start":7814.142,"end":7825.297,"text":"可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的"},{"start":7831.528,"end":7835.752,"text":"我問的是這一次嗎?這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫逾越的情況下"},{"start":7848.044,"end":7873.695,"text":"那會短暫逾越他已經不是那當下的情況不是常態一般這我們統計那五年的情況價值很少那時候也跟到委員報告跟主任提的這些都是非計畫性為啥非計畫因為天氣因為避浪沒有是嘛我們時間很有限啦我的問題是說當下我們做的具體的狀況是什麼你就直接回答這個部分好不好就問題回答當下的情況除了我們防空內打擊戰你們有沒有強勢驅離嘛"},{"start":7876.916,"end":7878.137,"text":"當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的"},{"start":7899.807,"end":7916.495,"text":"他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與蓄意安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面"},{"start":7922.157,"end":7946.887,"text":"2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線"},{"start":7951.269,"end":7976.02,"text":"但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做的怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較習慣了不能習慣這件事吧我跟你們報告國軍在那應處沒有找到哪個階段的這偶發事件有偶發事件處理的方法但平常我們一定嚴密監控現在這個數量當然我也有跟同仁講的我們要知道的話可以到委員單去講得很清楚"},{"start":7976.9,"end":7993.405,"text":"但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警詢"},{"start":7994.485,"end":8010.367,"text":"是 國防部部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":8010.848,"end":8035.851,"text":"我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密金融以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於"},{"start":8037.455,"end":8039.216,"text":"當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情"},{"start":8067.006,"end":8092.532,"text":"就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者"},{"start":8093.313,"end":8112.396,"text":"這個人的認定又跟我們好像哪一個團體裡面幫他喊拉隊但是一定是他支持者但是他以後預約法律我也特別後面有講這要減掉單位他們來處理這不是我的但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者"},{"start":8112.836,"end":8138.575,"text":"您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為"},{"start":8141.937,"end":8144.78,"text":"你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者"},{"start":8157.773,"end":8171.868,"text":"我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認"},{"start":8174.591,"end":8196.06,"text":"可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者欸所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的構別的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定欸"},{"start":8196.84,"end":8207.23,"text":"那我說喔最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎所以部長"},{"start":8215.859,"end":8227.028,"text":"以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說,你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人,叫做中共在立協力者嗎?我沒這樣講喔,我也沒這樣認為喔。你沒有這樣認為,好。我不是說您,不不不,您聽我說,您聽我說,您聽我說,不要緊張好嗎?我沒緊張,我為什麼要緊張呢?"},{"start":8235.555,"end":8260.265,"text":"您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者是!所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的"},{"start":8260.805,"end":8285.311,"text":"就可以扣上一個中共在地協力者的帽子這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我覺得他是在地協力者但有沒有違法"},{"start":8285.931,"end":8309.014,"text":"我沒有去做判斷那未來如果你們會去制定相關的法則我不會做這樣的法則因為我沒有依據我不會立一個法律來定定說只要是中共認定的中共協力者我就要對你處罰不會做這樣子的一個修法的方向國防部有什麼權利來制定一個法律做一個界定或怎麼樣來執法所以你們不會這麼做嗎好謝謝"},{"start":8315.947,"end":8319.348,"text":"好,接下來請王定宇、周偉上台發言。好,謝謝周偉,麻煩我們海巡署署長以及陸軍參謀長"},{"start":8346.409,"end":8359.665,"text":"委員長兩位早我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外"},{"start":8360.629,"end":8388.954,"text":"翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有5個漁民其中一個人救起來還有4個 真正6名是6個6個漁民有一個救起來另外5個失蹤不見了2個救起2個4位救起2個生還2個已經離難另外有2個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共6個2個生還2個不信那另外2位待搜救"},{"start":8390.294,"end":8409.425,"text":"我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位是中共當局的一個搜救的單位"},{"start":8410.285,"end":8424.598,"text":"是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國收請我們協助嘛請我們協助對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例啦人到救援我們賣就沒三分這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍"},{"start":8426.38,"end":8444.721,"text":"這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人"},{"start":8446.904,"end":8448.786,"text":"一百一十九人"},{"start":8461.62,"end":8475.935,"text":"違法者侵入我們的海域特別山無船舶你沒有船籍沒有許可證連博港證明都沒有的全世界包含中國海事單位其實都會取締違法就取締該去就驅離執法技巧該檢討就檢討"},{"start":8477.757,"end":8504.966,"text":"遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助所以現在還有兩位在待尋求所以其實在執法、人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡、鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情"},{"start":8505.586,"end":8530.731,"text":"海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個扭打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦那個叫做拒捕啦那個叫妨礙公務執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的"},{"start":8531.971,"end":8550.996,"text":"因為還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛就在旁邊嘛所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等"},{"start":8552.419,"end":8579.765,"text":"我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個"},{"start":8581.465,"end":8610.037,"text":"Channel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間就傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個"},{"start":8612.883,"end":8628.229,"text":"參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過沒有東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的"},{"start":8630.59,"end":8653.087,"text":"我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索"},{"start":8653.607,"end":8654.188,"text":"兩位請回,我現在請邱部長"},{"start":8680.609,"end":8697.143,"text":"報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可"},{"start":8706.851,"end":8725.328,"text":"現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那個是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請"},{"start":8726.109,"end":8745.407,"text":"都經過申請所以我們現在在協力在做這個搜尋你知道這證明什麼嗎你知道這證明什麼事情那就是我們的水域嘛我們其實不用在政治上找彼此的麻煩你申請人道救援我們許可把他升高給政治化說什麼要派他們的海監船海軍船來我們的線的巡邏這是不可能的"},{"start":8747.188,"end":8775.991,"text":"不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯"},{"start":8776.912,"end":8789.744,"text":"那這才是一個道理嘛動不動就說那個水域也是他的基本水域也他們管的來來去去都由他這個叫政治化把一個國際規範複雜化對兩邊都不好兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長"},{"start":8796.377,"end":8819.769,"text":"部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救接下來就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡"},{"start":8821.192,"end":8841.028,"text":"你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?中共最近講了很多話語,但我們有一個原則,我們當初既定的,我們有我們的主權,我們的治權,所以都是一個具體的事實,所以他怎麼講,但我們還堅守我們的論調,而且堅守我們的造型。"},{"start":8843.57,"end":8866.456,"text":"看台灣海峽是他有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來"},{"start":8867.836,"end":8882.064,"text":"但他講說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話"},{"start":8884.757,"end":8901.984,"text":"進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚他有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看他是怎麼做?對,那加州他講他有管轄權,那我們有我們的治權"},{"start":8903.553,"end":8917.97,"text":"對,我們有我們的主權跟治權有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警"},{"start":8919.019,"end":8923.901,"text":"這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業"},{"start":8946.849,"end":8963.223,"text":"可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊"},{"start":8964.568,"end":8992.109,"text":"我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案"},{"start":8994.251,"end":9004.106,"text":"擊敵海上、毀敵水際、堅敵灘頭那時候我們常常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子"},{"start":9005.151,"end":9034.21,"text":"但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在Milco在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長齁"},{"start":9035.331,"end":9060.371,"text":"中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．"},{"start":9061.932,"end":9078.057,"text":"我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他有撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部"},{"start":9078.917,"end":9102.717,"text":"具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統"},{"start":9105.407,"end":9106.771,"text":"我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購"},{"start":9110.471,"end":9130.416,"text":"遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎"},{"start":9136.897,"end":9141.502,"text":"這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套我第二個問題主席抱歉我借你一分鐘"},{"start":9155.816,"end":9173.471,"text":"我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做"},{"start":9174.051,"end":9189.122,"text":"他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎"},{"start":9195.731,"end":9216.044,"text":"委員這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試它就是為了確保對概念驗證它就是為了確保國內廠商有整合系統做POC還是單向單向做POC整個組合起來的不是單向單向對你如果單向單向的話我只依你們它就是個實體"},{"start":9217.465,"end":9218.466,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":9249.093,"end":9263.656,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請國防部的邱部長還有海巡署的這個署長邱部長海洋會的副主委海巡署長還有海委員好兩位長官好這個前面委員問到我還是問這個問題"},{"start":9277.64,"end":9292.314,"text":"大陸三條漁船進到苗栗的六里的領海裏面,這是不是已經進入我們的海域裏面了,正式海域裏面,是不是?正確如果按照邱國正部長"},{"start":9300.009,"end":9314.662,"text":"你在這裡上個禮拜吧,你講的實體越界第1集覆落了,怎麼都沒有了,點點然後呢,海巡的船,派了一艘兩艘,風浪太大了,趕快回來,雷達監控萬一他們是針對有另外的企圖,我們怎麼辦?所以這個事情,邱部長我請教你"},{"start":9326.172,"end":9342.049,"text":"你這個第一集說啊後面討論很多討論啊你就第一集啊講得太太快第二個講得太粗糙因為事實上後來你們的你們相關的長官包括國防部副部長在這裡"},{"start":9343.11,"end":9346.792,"text":"還有誰?還有包括你講的第1集都說這裡面還有前提喔還要經過什麼病室啊還要經過這個還要經過那個確定是這個非友善的才有第1集復代條件很長但是你那時候在這裡不是這樣子喔斬釘截鐵實體越界第1集扁下去這樣讓大家覺得說唉唷這樣是不是"},{"start":9369.302,"end":9385.744,"text":"第一集一出來馬上就兩岸就開戰了國防委員報告爭議的訊息怎麼出來的就諸如此類這就一個爭議的訊息我講的我特別有補充講所謂第一集你越界但這個之前一定有個程序"},{"start":9386.638,"end":9404.45,"text":"所以後來第二天我們副部長做這個補充他講得很周延的我還該講我前面可能沒有這樣講那麼清楚他反而幫我補上任何一樣事情國軍第一個考到慎戰謹慎的慎不要輕啟戰端我沒有這樣講哦我們講的要一步一步來但是呢假如說你到最後為什麼有個硬戰不必戰呢那個必就是我要接應你"},{"start":9417.758,"end":9434.784,"text":"經過警告,經過確認,你還是不聽,那我們最後尋死了,我就把你當作你的第一級,我是尋死我的反制自衛權,清清楚楚。那現在甲裝監獄被咬到一句話,又啊什麼樣了,我實在沒有辦法。"},{"start":9438.069,"end":9442.934,"text":"我沒有認為哪個來者不善,一定經過一個程序,比如說他走過來,我怎麼會認為他來者不善呢?當然他有動作了,那我當然要做一個反應了。"},{"start":9462.72,"end":9469.547,"text":"所以同樣道理由個人到國家都如此沒有貿然的現在看了還過來準備要打架了你這樣講美國總統拜登剛才有人提到了提了1億美金幫助我們這個我們都歡迎細節不講但是他講了因為選舉到了他跟川普都一樣都是拼命的反中拿台灣當籌碼"},{"start":9488.819,"end":9490.08,"text":"提到大陸若犯台,美國會保衛台灣。"},{"start":9503.53,"end":9518.852,"text":"我跟委員報告很多人問我這個問題我就跟他一再回應也是一樣國軍任何一個演訓他的這個想定你去翻翻看有哪一篇是講一旦有外來的力量這個資源了我們怎麼辦"},{"start":9519.713,"end":9530.517,"text":"沒有,所以這些國家自己就講了多少次我要為人家一句話,哇就變成一個好懷疑懷疑我們,沒有什麼好懷疑的我沒有懷疑,我只是弄清楚了我覺得保護國家,不會仰賴任何的外援沒有,我要請教你是大家要知道因為國內相當多的人會認為只要台海發生戰爭,美國一定出兵我沒有這樣講過我就問你"},{"start":9545.043,"end":9545.443,"text":"我跟委員報告我們盡量避免作戰但作戰"},{"start":9564.974,"end":9566.696,"text":"我再請教你因為這問題你也回答過但是我要再確定一遍為什麼這樣等一下說"},{"start":9581.633,"end":9594.201,"text":"這個過去的國防部長李捷說我們單獨撐可以撐兩個禮拜他講的等到美國來幫忙然後顏明也是當國防部長他說一個月然後呢這個高華樹他最少一個禮拜以上劉和謙前參謀總長他說以兩週為目標"},{"start":9607.672,"end":9631.151,"text":"請問我們邱部長你有沒有目標說我最少要打到什麼或者說我不管為什麼要打到一比一組一定要打到贏每個專家學者他的立論也有他的基礎這是國防部長 前任國防部長我大概都有專家學者但我的界定很簡單現在台灣防衛作戰是個防衛作戰而且已經到國土防衛階段那防衛階段也是打到"},{"start":9633.573,"end":9662.101,"text":"你通通哪怕被殲滅了你五星旗槍都沒有插到國防部我跟你講這仗他白打所以我們要撐什麼你如果說他我不知道但我只要有一個人在所以我跟同仁講我們一旦作戰了只有王將沒有降軍就這個用意就一兵一卒嘛打多久我也不知道但看他要打多久好請問你美軍在附近日本在哪裡附近如果要來幫忙台灣最快多久時間"},{"start":9662.947,"end":9663.727,"text":"所以這樣的國防部長要繼續當啊"},{"start":9687.695,"end":9707.715,"text":"其他的國防部長都是兩個禮拜最多一個月啊你的話就一直打下去了不是我跟委員報告我剛剛已經講過任何一個專案學者就算過往前輩他們講話我沒有否定喔他有他的立任他當時思考的是某個事我現在想講的一夜不在場我難道就打到海岸線就沒有了吧"},{"start":9708.436,"end":9714.298,"text":"所以才有國土防衛城鎮作戰這個科普一直出來簡單來講沒有誤解我下一個簡單結論就是邱國正點兩點只要五星旗沒有查到總統府一直打下去我講國防部"},{"start":9729.224,"end":9746.159,"text":"我們不跟總統府在隔壁而已啊不不不這不一樣在隔壁而已啊在隔壁啊國軍啊國軍最後一兵一卒這不是口號所以總統府差五星旗繼續打我沒講總統府要講那個主委員你一講我沒有意見嘛對啊你就搞到我頭上來點點我沒有講點法不能這樣亂點的賴思寶全世界沒啥理OK好我沒意見沒有沒有我沒講完你先不要下去喔"},{"start":9756.254,"end":9763.177,"text":"因為我問你的你睡不著覺結果變成這個討論幾天聽說這媒體說的話說高層對你很不爽所以因此要把你換掉真的嗎哪位高層我不知道媒體寫的要不要換掉我也不知道媒體在後面都在後面高層都要講出來對不對都要講有沒有高層很芥蒂高層多層欸"},{"start":9781.085,"end":9801.015,"text":"請問你520之後你被換掉你會不會很不爽有什麼不爽的政務官去留沒有任何人道你沒有企圖心想要繼續做中華民國我已經跟同仁講得很清楚我不是三頭六臂我不要把國軍造成一個怎麼樣的地步但我要維持國軍的平穩"},{"start":9803.096,"end":9820.205,"text":"萬一你離開了萬一你被換掉你有沒有一絲絲的遺憾哪件事情沒有做完就離開會不會有沒有不會欸因為這個政策它有延續性吧我沒做完後面才會一樣做嘛所以不會覺得委屈不會不會委屈我原來聽你委屈啦"},{"start":9821.465,"end":9836.688,"text":"而且我覺得我很罪惡感因為我問了你睡不著覺結果你被換掉沒有沒有不會沒有這回事啦我剛剛有跟記者講我們國際一個責任的概念就跟每個當主觀的所見所以你如果萬一被換掉不能怪我事情做不好頭會痛的最後一點我跟你講一個東西這個叫國際危機組織"},{"start":9853.059,"end":9873.364,"text":"這個組織發表一篇若若燈關於金門撞船,也不是撞船,金門那個事件的事情他寫一個US and China Continuous Talks to Management Competition我們的海域"},{"start":9875.078,"end":9901.541,"text":"為什麼要這兩大國在那裡continue to talk為什麼他們要繼續談這個東西這個東西你看了我不知道國防部長你看了會不會生氣我看了都很生氣啊為什麼你們談這個東西我也覺得很奇怪這個東西我也覺得這個東西很奇怪我為什麼生氣不了解沒什麼好氣不氣的我們國家環境就如此但我們做好我們本務工作這有什麼好氣的"},{"start":9903.142,"end":9930.609,"text":"我覺得我們中華民國主權獨立國家為什麼我們家裡的事情這兩大國好像他們現在外界都講啊中國大陸跟美國共管台灣海域共管台灣這句話你同意嗎各種言論紛紛擾擾同意不同意我怎麼會同意呢不能同意啊我們自己的海域自己管啦自己的國家自己管啦不是他們兩個人任何人都不會同意的"},{"start":9931.271,"end":9955.908,"text":"所以他們常常中國大陸跟美國講什麼來決定台灣我個人不接受我們要有大聲的真的要捍衛台灣愛台灣愛這樣啦不是說美國跟中國大陸講的現在看起來就這個味道說國際海域什麼海域台灣的命運都他們兩個在決定那件事情沒有這回事這個部長要硬起來"},{"start":9957.437,"end":9958.699,"text":"我們現在先休息五分鐘,待會繼續開會"},{"start":10313.063,"end":10313.423,"text":"主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":10346.735,"end":10363.685,"text":"國防部長今天你報告開頭就說這份報告裡面就說以常態化灰色地帶侵擾並用認知作戰打擊與混淆國際視聽企圖片面改變台海現狀升高區域衝突"},{"start":10364.705,"end":10385.937,"text":"所以這是您對近來我們兩岸之間的一個狀況的描述所以我認為部長你之前說會睡不著覺這是對國家安全的憂心那這也是國防部長的責任感那這一點我表示肯定但是我有一個感覺不知道部長有沒有同樣的感覺我覺得好像我最近已經質詢了快20場的質詢"},{"start":10388.258,"end":10405.929,"text":"各部會相關的官員我感覺到好像眾人皆睡你獨醒阿你有沒有這個感覺阿不會欸不會我跟委員報不會這樣子不會喔那我來講齁這個整個行政團隊我也執行過行政院長這個陳建仁我們管委會海委會的主委管碧玲"},{"start":10406.169,"end":10424.569,"text":"然後邱泰山陸委會主委那甚至我們的國安局局長蔡明彥都說目前沒有任何情資顯示臺海緊張情勢有持續升高而且他強調他有在睡覺那為什麼大家可以睡得很好那你一個人就醒得很痛苦呢"},{"start":10424.989,"end":10454.068,"text":"國防委員給我一點時間我對您要做說明好不好請說國軍考量事情有真後以後有事情以後還有很多假定事項但這個假定事項都是從最壞的來做一個打算所以我們想要做最壞的打算以便於我們做最好的準備所以現在這個立場背景不一樣所以我有這種考量我並不認為假定事項沒有這種考量就是好像不憂國憂民我跟部長講我就是肯定你這樣的憂國憂民"},{"start":10455.429,"end":10481.485,"text":"做最壞打算所以我要講其他部會真的好像都在做最好打算的感覺那我要再問三立有一個獨家新聞他說總統府高層說你是自走炮還致電給你來要去了解你的發言原意而且你的屢屢爭議發言讓府方很頭痛我想問第一個你認同自走炮這個批評嗎"},{"start":10482.458,"end":10505.106,"text":"我沒有意見,因為人家給我取什麼外號,他左眼如何,我都沒有意見啊,他的什麼出發點我也不了解,但我要跟委員報告,但我跟委員報告,到目前為止沒有人問我,你為什麼要這樣發言,為什麼要那樣發言。那我要想請教您,您知道就是我剛剛講過質詢過很多的官員,"},{"start":10508.976,"end":10536.165,"text":"我一個感覺好像天下本太平自走炮自擾之習近平喊和平大家一起安心睡的感覺所以我想要請教最近有一個討論的話題因為習近平重生和平統一那很多人就看到說你看他都喊和平統一對不對那就代表和平就不會動武那我想請問您是這樣嗎你相信習近平"},{"start":10537.946,"end":10556.867,"text":"我問委員報告我沒有什麼相信不相信但我們國軍在國軍部隊面待久了以後有些事情決定是一個定律就是因為人家一句話而改變了自己的初衷因為和平那我們就不要戰備了嗎?不會因為有和平所以我們就不要鬆懈嗎?不會"},{"start":10558.248,"end":10578.631,"text":"所以我覺得在這一方面我是一個蠻好的一個跟國軍同仁一樣的一個大原則絕對抓住,不會人家一句話我們就改變我們自己就放鬆或緊繃了,所以人家也不會講一句話我就變很緊張整個方寸就亂了,我想這是很重要的"},{"start":10578.871,"end":10595.498,"text":"我覺得這部長的態度是正確的你也不能因為習近平一句話要喊和平統一好像就太平無事一樣那該要做的準備當然是要做準備但是下一個我就要問您因為今天您的報告是面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅影響與應處作為可是我發現"},{"start":10601.921,"end":10626.593,"text":"這個全篇報告只字未提美國、日本那意思是在面對中共常態化的侵擾威脅所以日本跟美國因素不重要嗎?不是不重要,但我們全部不指望因為他到底會採取什麼樣一個反應或動作我們是完全不知道的所以我們不能把它列為我們認為他會如何這樣的話會有違我們國軍建軍備在一個概念的"},{"start":10627.133,"end":10634.317,"text":"那我想請教可是事實上我們政府的歷次兵推也會把美國的狀況考量進去嗎?是不是?"},{"start":10647.545,"end":10671.366,"text":"我最起碼軍事當中兵推我沒有遇過這個狀況是我是講說整個政府在做所謂的兩岸的兵推會不會把美國跟日本因素考慮進去因為它每個層次不同所以為什麼對我有什麼評論我是完全在一個軍事立場來設想那我就從軍事立場來請教我們部長其實坦白講過去我看到民進黨的朋友"},{"start":10671.886,"end":10701.149,"text":"也是不斷的暗示跟明示台海有事美日不會做事那我想請問如果中共真的我們最不想要的結果武力犯台你覺得美國會介入嗎日本會介入嗎我不知道所以我就一再強調我們想定沒有這種想定就代表我不能夠預判我講的很多話軍事術語雖然聽來好像有點好像很古板但蠻受用的要以不可見之力要"},{"start":10701.789,"end":10706.151,"text":"我這樣問好了我們就拿烏克蘭戰爭來做一個類比那烏俄開戰美國跟歐洲各國皆會聲援都有聲援沒錯吧第一個當然第一個等級就是譴責俄國"},{"start":10725.066,"end":10742.406,"text":"就歐洲跟美國的幾個國家都譴責俄國嘛 對不對第二個等級是經濟制裁嘛祭出很多經濟制裁的措施第三個等級是提供武器跟軍事援助嘛 對不對那可是到目前為止有沒有到第四個等級就是派兵參戰"},{"start":10743.957,"end":10759.031,"text":"目前我剛剛講了從來口會、實會我們都沒有考慮過口會旁邊拉拉隊一樣喊一喊換成我也喊一喊加油到底有沒有實會這是很重要的部長完全知道我要問什麼"},{"start":10760.292,"end":10780.097,"text":"就是說前面譴責其實只是一種口惠當然經濟制裁提供武器軍事援助也還是有實質可是事實上很多在討論當中都把它界定到最後一個等級就是派兵參戰但實際上之前日本官房長官其實他就說過一段話我看部長也有回應嘛"},{"start":10780.777,"end":10807.329,"text":"他說他不能認同台灣有事日本有事的觀點他認為兩岸如果爆發戰爭日本協防台灣可能面臨重大的損失所以台灣不應期待日本協防台灣這句話其實指的也不只是日本啦也包括美國因素所以在你的戰備考量之下我們就是自己國家自己救嘛您是這樣說嘛我也是這樣認為接下來我想請教您下一個問題我想請教部長"},{"start":10810.37,"end":10833.047,"text":"您知道這個2021.2021年疫情期間有位網友在PTT上辱罵陳時中攻擊台灣防疫而且散播親中言論還可惡要大家移除衛福部的LINE帳號及管家我想請問您這算不算是有利中共不利台灣的訊息"},{"start":10835.796,"end":10857.399,"text":"我跟委員剛剛有問到我們界定就是說你發表言論利於敵方不利於我方那你覺得這個訊息算不算利於敵方不利於我方當然也算了所以他就是在地協議權對 是不是有違反了什麼規定那不是我的責任那我跟部長說"},{"start":10858.84,"end":10873.086,"text":"王定宇有痛批這是大陸滲透PTT搞認知作戰而且網友收錢擾亂台灣蔡英文在臉書也附和王定宇可是你知道最後被查出來這一起所謂王定宇的中共擾亂台灣事件"},{"start":10875.367,"end":10889.193,"text":"這個網友是范雲的學生綠營的寫手林偉峰自導自演他的老婆還是當時民進黨媒體社群中心副主任我想請問林偉峰是不是您定義的在地協力者中共在地協力者"},{"start":10890.127,"end":10913.897,"text":"我跟委員報這個人我不認得我對一個不認得的人我沒辦法去做一個評論當然啦那我跟你講照這個標準林偉峰就是中共在地協力者而背後的民進黨千絲萬縷的關係民進黨也是中共在地協力者嗎我最後還是給部長前面其實我都很肯定你但您這句話說真的我覺得講得不夠精確"},{"start":10915.077,"end":10939.111,"text":"因為很多東西事實上要馬上所謂的用所謂有利不利來去做一個判準還是要回到法律的標準來看對不對那事實上犯法就抓去關啊這我也贊成所以請部長以後這類型的說法可能要更精確一點點是謝謝委員我也要給我幾秒鐘那天我在這個大院會裡的報告我有講這一話所以如何界定這不是我國防部的能力範圍要經過檢調單位"},{"start":10941.733,"end":10942.993,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":10975.943,"end":10978.504,"text":"剛才幾位委員都有提到你回應民進黨立委講到的在地協力者的問題"},{"start":11000.683,"end":11015.34,"text":"那如同您剛才自己說的最後他到底有沒有定罪有沒有法律問題是在檢調、要調查還有你也承認這個判定的標準很困難你可能也說不出所以然"},{"start":11016.221,"end":11045.589,"text":"那比如說問你的沈伯洋委員他竟然告訴你是說可以用光譜來判定啊我都不曉得是哪門子的這個法律見解用光譜用政治光譜嗎所以我具體的建議啊部長你是國防部長因為你在這個部分並不是專業比如說甚至提到裡面網路的一些反串的言論所以其實你真的大可不必去談這個所謂在地協力者的一個標準"},{"start":11046.189,"end":11046.41,"text":"請周署長"},{"start":11066.793,"end":11082.645,"text":"委員長,剛才早上你們發一個新聞稿,就是今天翻覆的漁船,它是在東定海域1.07海里,東定島,新南方1.07海里翻覆的。"},{"start":11083.605,"end":11100.529,"text":"所以我想請問一下,所以它搬赴的地點是應該在我們的禁限制海域裡面嗎?因為非常非常的近,是吧?是,它是在東定島,因為東定離金門有15海里遠,也就是說,對,它在東定島的禁限制水域內。"},{"start":11104.19,"end":11107.592,"text":"我們的巡防體在線上巡邏,我剛剛有報告,我們在我們的金門附近的水域在巡邏"},{"start":11126.775,"end":11148.277,"text":"所以沒有針對這艘漁船去特別的去接近它?沒有,沒有針對這一艘特別去接近它,因為我們離15海裏,15海裏就是大概將近30公裏的概念所以我們當時我們的巡防艇是距離這個翻覆的漁船其實很遠,但它離東帝島非常近"},{"start":11149.843,"end":11161.628,"text":"這個翻覆的漁船離東定島只有1.07海浪對啊,非常近啊好,所以我的問題是我們到目前為止有沒有掌握到它到底為什麼翻覆呢?"},{"start":11162.484,"end":11179.444,"text":"目前我們不得而知但是我們現在所有的船隻都在現場在救援現場的海象如何現在的海象因為他沒有我們去驅離沒有我們去追撞的問題嗎沒有都沒有完全排除是那有沒有可能是因為海象的問題"},{"start":11179.804,"end":11194.448,"text":"有可能是海象的問題因為這兩天封面經過時好時壞那像這樣子的一個船隻啊它通常的船體的狀況都不會很好所以為什麼我們在過去幾年當中經常會發現類似的這種漁船經常會沉沒我們經常會有這種類似的狀況"},{"start":11200.71,"end":11214.981,"text":"不排除有海象問題因為它離東定島這麼近好像當地可能等到退潮的時候甚至也不排除因為它現在這個船體還在漂來漂去嘛那有可能在我們東定島的這個"},{"start":11219.449,"end":11241.983,"text":"現在目前他最近我剛剛11點15分接到的通報是在東地西南的0.05海裡的位置在只剩下一個圍竿了那我們的同仁圍竿也就是說他船體本身都已經翻覆在水線以下了"},{"start":11245.385,"end":11257.211,"text":"我們現在海巡隊的潛水人員大概在10分鐘前已經下水了我們現在要到這個整個船艙裡面去看有沒有生還者還有兩位失蹤所以以現在的狀況來講他非常有可能應該說是0.05"},{"start":11265.856,"end":11266.997,"text":"他如果擱淺在我們的海岸上"},{"start":11284.906,"end":11299.655,"text":"我們是不會同意就是如果大陸方面他們希望能夠去登船也是去看有沒有生還者也好或者是檢查一下船體等等之類的我們會同意他們去登船"},{"start":11300.572,"end":11305.239,"text":"我相信應該會同意他們的救難的人員也到現場去但是我相信這個僅止於海面"},{"start":11316.395,"end":11319.959,"text":"因為這件事離我們這一次的就前面的這個機下海域的這個爭議的事件時間非常短那麼因為之前呢其實呢後來是不歡而散"},{"start":11337.639,"end":11364.851,"text":"談判破裂而造成兩岸之間的緊張然後呢其實對方呢也開始做了一些包含說台灣沒有國際海域等等之類那所以以部長的判斷在這一次的事件裡面第一個我們剛講說可以完全排除有關於是因為我們重設了驅離或者是有之前像是不是有追贓的狀況是可以完全排除那而且呢我們也"},{"start":11366.131,"end":11375.282,"text":"根據對岸的一個要求事實上我們也派出4艘船一起去救援我跟證我們現在是6艘我們又加了2艘從4艘變6艘"},{"start":11381.088,"end":11409.819,"text":"一共出動6艘船另外我們也請軍防部支援專業潛水人員他們有專業潛水人員在軍防部軍方也有支援而且東定島的守軍現在全部在岸際加強搜索因為他畢竟離岸很近大概2000碼左右的狀況用高倍望遠鏡你都可以看得到他只要一搜索到他就會通知我們海巡我們立刻會"},{"start":11412.9,"end":11436.735,"text":"我想請教部長．待會請教署長這個事件其實就是我們已經展開極高度的就是人道救援的一個不管是人力配置還有我們的態度所以部長你覺得這次的事件有沒有助於和緩在之前因為驚嚇這個撞船事件造成的兩岸緊張的情勢你覺得是"},{"start":11438.996,"end":11452.561,"text":"一樣還是升高還是你覺得有可能和緩我覺得剛剛凱旭說明已經很清楚如果照這種狀況來走的話他不至於惡化應該說還算蠻平順因為大家都基於一個人道救援的做法也沒有為難的問題"},{"start":11464.951,"end":11479.743,"text":"其實我必須講因為它翻船的地點非常非常近已經真的在其實已經是非常非常接近東定島了就像我們講限制海域但是我們還是本於我們的人道救援精神就是並不會因此"},{"start":11480.483,"end":11507.464,"text":"有任何的說我們今天去檢討你有沒有進來我們的禁縣這個海域所以署長最後一點點時間你覺得這個事件有沒有辦法和緩之前那個緊張的氣氛跟委員報告我的評估是跟部長一樣我們希望希望因為我們在這個金下水域我早上特別強調它很狹窄經常會發生這樣子的事件那我們經常在過去沒有發生"},{"start":11514.307,"end":11533.993,"text":"今天早上我再跟委員補充報告今天早上我們第一時間就跟對岸的執法區隊立刻聯繫他現在連把6個人的人名哪些是生的哪些是死的哪些是失蹤人民全部都告訴我們海巡所以我們的互通是沒有問題的我們在過去是這樣做我們現在還是這樣做"},{"start":11535.974,"end":11536.114,"text":"主席"},{"start":11566.615,"end":11566.835,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":11591.665,"end":11613.084,"text":"委員早昨天我們也討論過我也很歡喜聽到您說之前發生的事情呢你們不放棄繼續來溝通各自在談判的過程當中雖然15次但是呢雙方雖然外界所謂的破局但是你仍舊認為沒有破局"},{"start":11614.565,"end":11640.693,"text":"是雙方將自己的歧異的意見帶回去再研議沒有想到今天又發生了這樣的事情所以第一時間怎麼會知道呢?我們今天早上6點兩分的時候接到我們國搜中心的通知我們自己國搜中心?我們國搜中心當然國搜中心是經由對岸的一個搜救的單位通知我們對岸立即通知我們?對,我們請求我們能夠"},{"start":11641.733,"end":11642.954,"text":"共同來參與救援"},{"start":11658.045,"end":11680.996,"text":"第一時間就把線上的巡邏艇直接就調到東定去直接就航往東定後續我們從我們的港內又陸續派了三艘我們到了現場之後我們看整個搜索的狀況因為東定島很近所以我們考量到吃水的問題我們又加派了一艘CP艇"},{"start":11681.876,"end":11684.439,"text":"對方的船隻也是有4艘在線內,2艘在線外,也是6艘在那邊參與救援"},{"start":11704.316,"end":11728.567,"text":"各項的救援資訊現在雙方都經由我們日常的一個通信的管道我們跟對方的執法區隊或者是海巡的單位跟我們共同聯繫那都互通有無我們採取什麼行動他們可能未來會派直升機來或怎麼樣他們都有跟我們提出一些溝通以及申請"},{"start":11729.127,"end":11729.628,"text":"之所以請署長你說明整個的這個"},{"start":11751.818,"end":11754.14,"text":"請大家放心,我們也希望大家團結"},{"start":11767.33,"end":11767.35,"text":"請部長"},{"start":11798.373,"end":11820.408,"text":"部長好。部長,這個人大他們兩會目前政協跟人大開完會,日前結束。那國安局長在備詢的當中他有說了,他說沒有情緒顯示台海緊張情勢升高。那部長您的看法是不是跟國安局長的方向是一樣的呢?"},{"start":11820.899,"end":11843.505,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們每個人成績不同,人家講數位有專攻,他們果然在考量成績,把政治、經濟、環境都發脾氣。軍事方面就完全看,如果敵人有爭後,我們就要往下研判。所以立場不一樣,所以我們看法不見得一樣,但沒有講說互相要打點誰的問題。"},{"start":11846.107,"end":11857.844,"text":"對,但是他目前說是沒有,其實認為說是緊張情緒會升高,那您的看法呢?我們都有見到,但是我們看到眼前有些在海上空中的狀況,我們認為在軍事方面我們不能夠鬆懈"},{"start":11862.451,"end":11877.351,"text":"這個就是大家對部長您的努力我想草野大家都非常非常的肯定那我們的目的也就是希望不要讓民眾有所憂心恐慌這個我想是政府很重要的一個責任"},{"start":11878.192,"end":11894.566,"text":"所以現階段認為在軍事方面是還是有一些狀況但是在國安局方面是認為沒有升高所以當然你有很多的步驟會去應對所以本期要請教在我們國防預算裡頭我們年年當然是增加"},{"start":11895.327,"end":11914.953,"text":"但是113年度裡頭我們的新的預算是6068億創了歷史的新高GDP佔了2.5%所以當然還有其他的國家相對的特別預算等等所以本期要請教我們在113年度裡頭會不會增加到GDP的佔比3%請做說明"},{"start":11917.217,"end":11934.487,"text":"這我不敢保證,因為國防預算定定有很多因素,要看國家財力還有整個行的哪個部會是重點工作。我們上一年都有6,068億,當初特別預算等等都包含在裡面的。"},{"start":11938.649,"end":11961.725,"text":"我們也期望講能夠保持一個一定的水準但我們不能夠強求因為畢竟國家整體的預算在國防預算當中已緩我不能不幫別的部會來考慮但是我們會發表我們的意見需求的時候還是會提出所以還是會增加我可以這麼解讀嗎可以可以這樣子那接下來本校請問今年1月份的時候華爾街日報也報導我們向美國訂購的約190億美元的飛彈"},{"start":11968.029,"end":11970.631,"text":"美國對於目前其中有許多訂單的交付還要拖,還要拖了好幾年。除了報導的多管火箭系統、無人機、戰車"},{"start":11988.681,"end":12009.508,"text":"余磊在去年預算中心也提出了我們也努力努力去追光光在光刺針的這個飛彈呢我們就吹了11次是嗎那目前進度如何呢我跟各位報告我們這個採購方面或人家有任何一個軍購方面的工作很多狀況"},{"start":12010.828,"end":12011.028,"text":"委員會副局長"},{"start":12037.737,"end":12054.425,"text":"本席可以這麼解讀嗎?也就是當時你簽約的時間點,不管它的進度怎麼樣,到最後都會依照契約的時間點歸位?是如此嗎?可以這樣講,對。可以這麼說嗎?是這樣子啊。是這樣子我們就放心了。"},{"start":12057.226,"end":12060.368,"text":"因為民眾有疑慮,如果一直慢,會不會影響到我們整個國防的部件成效?"},{"start":12082.01,"end":12107.967,"text":"任何一個武器中央籌購以後雖然這是一個建案但是我們有什麼備案備案不就依賴這個備案但我要跟委員報告你這句話就對了本席認同不依賴這個備案所以我們要依照我們的腳程對我們要按照這個程序來對所以目前民眾所疑慮的會不會因為研製而導致我們的部件有成效的降低不會有這個疑慮吧在你的任內"},{"start":12109.168,"end":12133.933,"text":"因為大家都很信任你,在你的任內應該不會有這個疑慮吧?不用有這個疑慮,光在我在我任內啊,官部的工作它都有一個節點管控的,不是講因為我...好,部長你客氣,但是我們希望啦,在我們整個的國防部件它的成效是依照我們的預定角度,讓我們有放心。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝楊委員。"},{"start":12138.757,"end":12141.132,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員上台質詢"},{"start":12170.527,"end":12197.864,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長請邱部長部長辛苦了上禮拜我有質詢有關在台東戰備跑道的事情國防部特別指派了空軍參謀長"},{"start":12200.724,"end":12206.109,"text":"這個到臺東關山在12號12號進行這個說明會臺東關山的鄉親反對在臺九縣外環道設置戰備跑道這個臺東縣勞慶林縣長建議可以東移與河堤共過臺東的鄉親花蓮的鄉親"},{"start":12232.434,"end":12255.168,"text":"對於這個備戰,絕對是支持的,像這個嘉山基地的新屁,像這個自航基地的新建,這個臺東花蓮的鄉親,絕對是支持。這個,所以東宜與合體共構,這個是臺東的鄉親的一個建議,然後縣長的建議也是這樣。"},{"start":12256.499,"end":12262.975,"text":"本席在上禮拜質詢的時候也提到可以跟花東快速公路"},{"start":12266.761,"end":12286.208,"text":"建在這個花東快速公路的這個因為現在正在做可行性評估所以這個部分如果你們支持的話會更快所以我們是希望是這樣讓這個有限的資源尤其是現在的那個關山那個地方正好都是糧田"},{"start":12287.549,"end":12300.545,"text":"也是糧食首席戰爭的時候糧食更重要所以這個部分請國防部能夠跟交通部"},{"start":12304.675,"end":12328.509,"text":"來協調他們在做規劃新建的時候就把它一併的規劃在這裡面部長可以嗎?可以,我上午黃偉永很關切這個問題所以可能之前跟部落之間的協調我不知道做了,可能有欠缺周圍的地方但我們空心也很有誠意啦希望這個戰備跟這個地方建設"},{"start":12329.91,"end":12332.352,"text":"若先建在這個就像老縣長所建議的東移與合體共構"},{"start":12355.751,"end":12380.156,"text":"花東快速道路花東快速公路的這個位置它的路線就是以合體共過就是以合體共過會非常非常的適合這個部分對於這個未來新建也會比較容易也會這個"},{"start":12383.188,"end":12410.949,"text":"人民會更支持人民會更支持所以這個部分請這個國防部能夠盡快跟這個交通部去協調好不好好我跟委員報告我初步看到這個他有建議講戰備跑道不要順便跟地方公路切應該要切割但這個的意味就則是體大好不好這個的意味加上要考慮這個問題那可能全盤都跟這個完全不一樣"},{"start":12411.71,"end":12438.437,"text":"我們請空軍做評估以後也不是說完全切割啦也不是說完全切割所以嘛我們在進一步的協調上面跑到像屏東就是在公路上這個都知道的這個只要是不影響這個相關人民的這個相關的這些資源避開這個糧倉這個大家都會去支持好我們接下來談這個"},{"start":12441.55,"end":12468.428,"text":"致航機場致航機場在興建的時候這個現在致航機場啊原來我們的部落在裡面像這個交入欄部落十三部落原來都在致航機場裡面因為要興建致航機場我們的部落"},{"start":12469.542,"end":12496.576,"text":"就遷移到治航機場的旁邊我們都非常的配合就遷到治航機場的旁邊在幾十年來我們就是忍受了這個噪音噪音所以噪音的部分忍受了非常非常的多年本席也質詢過很多次但是因為礙於"},{"start":12500.272,"end":12522.851,"text":"主計總署給你們的經費不足這個我常常舉例子按照這個媒體的報導而且是事實噪音補償竟然要等30年過去的噪音補償是什麼呢因為限於法令的問題你們都是用那個冷氣機嘛"},{"start":12525.496,"end":12546.955,"text":"補助經費買冷氣機但是要等30年我常常擠那個組織總署的那個對於那個政府機關的冷氣機啊八九年就可以換新的但是我們要等30年才能夠輪啊它用輪的一個里一個里一個里這樣輪啊"},{"start":12549.735,"end":12549.775,"text":"本席"},{"start":12573.936,"end":12595.931,"text":"就在110年從109年開始提修正噪音管制法這個也在110年1月20號通過了這個噪音管制法特別明定可以跟這個民航的軍民合用的機場"},{"start":12598.277,"end":12608.403,"text":"像軍營合用的或是民航的機場啊,它是每年補償啊,每年發補償啊但是現在這個修法已經114年1月20號,現在113年囉,111213"},{"start":12619.298,"end":12647.941,"text":"我的了解是這樣當然我沒有最新的資料上次說要請提供還沒有提供要趕快提供給我但是我的了解國防部要堅定的配合法律的修正就要補償就用補償的方式用經費啦為什麼呢你說冷氣機它不可能等那麼久我只好先買了用字買了"},{"start":12649.474,"end":12661.379,"text":"阿你現在說還是用冷氣機我已經買了阿不能等那麼久阿對不對所以你還是用跟民航民用機場的他們都用現金阿"},{"start":12663.368,"end":12688.099,"text":"通信先經讓人民自己做怎麼樣去處理這個是但是你們一直太尊重那個什麼那個小組的會議啊你們稱為什麼趙感小組那個小組那個成員成員橫眼的那個理當成員大部分的成員不是在那個所以應該要尊重"},{"start":12689.349,"end":12701.033,"text":"最靠近機場的這些民眾的意見,可以嗎?好,我請空軍再去好好去,但據我了解想說當採用這個方法也是經過討論過的不是軍中貿然去小組的成員這個"},{"start":12705.854,"end":12734.394,"text":"周邊的部落他只有一個代表比不過他們幾所比不過對嘛所以這後面我們還是持續溝通嘛好不好就跟委員做說明好不好但叫我一時馬上就答應去改我這裡可能有些法令方面的問題我不能夠貿然去法令已經改好了OK啦都可以啦細節部分一定也是與法有據的但是要聽這個在地人最靠近滋航機場的他們受影響最大的好不好我了解"},{"start":12741.016,"end":12743.817,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台發言我們請部長請邱部長"},{"start":12772.935,"end":12795.155,"text":"村委員好部長好部長這個國安局局長在11日在我們的外交國防委員會質詢的時候他有提出這個脅迫性合同他有提到中國會透過他的軍事、經濟、政治、治安等等認知作戰等等各種統合性的方式來去讓台灣出現對於無同想像的空間跟恐懼來達到武力的恫嚇"},{"start":12795.976,"end":12818.37,"text":"那這方面部長之前在接受媒體的這個詢問的時候你也提到說就是會非常的擔憂那我想知道說這個國安局的情資他是說中共基本上還是追求非武力統一那依照國安局的情資跟國防部的情資你們的看法是一致的嗎?"},{"start":12819.437,"end":12848.686,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為這個問題就講說因為層次專業不同我們講說這個文道有先後嘛,數位有專攻嘛我們考量這個層次,不講哪個層次高低問題這個範圍,軍事的考量一定是有這個爭後以後依據爭後,我們去追,去設定可能的行動但可能就又礙於我們有嚴格的一個做法就是說往最壞的地方來打算"},{"start":12849.446,"end":12871.888,"text":"所以會有不同的一個見解但並不代表他是錯的我是對的或者我的錯他對的因為各層級不同範圍領域不同所以我們做我們的表達但人家要考量的還有政治因素其他環境因素在軍事考量當中沒有把這個拉進去所以會有不同的結果"},{"start":12872.108,"end":12873.008,"text":"我們因為每天不管是空情、海情"},{"start":12888.676,"end":12913.01,"text":"還有一連串地面部隊訓練的狀況我們大家都有瞭解瞭解依據當前的狀況來研判的話我覺得它是不會停的不管做一個戰備警訊或聯合的警訊它不會停的聯合戰備它可以利用這個時候做一些好像海空之間的演訓或跟地面部隊又怎麼樣一個演練"},{"start":12915.371,"end":12942.503,"text":"這我們都要掌控,掌控狀況我們就在這個軍事方面我們還是要注意對,因為部長的職責嘛就是料底要從嚴,那從嚴去做然後就是因為我們知道說部長都睡不著可是不是只是睡不著部長是直接進入到指揮所是有因應的作為所以這點我們也是非常肯定啊也聽說部長旗都一直都不會落下來就是表示花很多時間在應處這個部分我們是非常肯定的但是我還是要強調,國安局他們是想"},{"start":12943.203,"end":12948.809,"text":"我相信這個部分的這樣子的說法跟部長的這樣的看法還是基本上吻合的我這樣理解可以說當然說他的"},{"start":12961.984,"end":12983.101,"text":"你對敵情的這個偵測當然照樣跟過去比較起來是不同但是整體的情勢判斷你會是怎麼看對我覺得認同因為我們有氣達目標跟可達目標氣達的就講希望他不要有任何戰事發生這大家共同的但可不可以的的確沒有戰事發生這我軍中的立場我們不能暴力啊絕對不會"},{"start":12984.602,"end":12991.227,"text":"所以部長的這個作為把擔憂的行為化為動作直接去這個指揮所進駐啊等等的這些做法我們都是肯定的但是我還是強調說在於國防跟國安情資的這個風險溝通風險溝通裡面"},{"start":13011.261,"end":13031.313,"text":"對外還是基本上要有一定的邏輯性跟一致性因為台灣是一個民主自由的社會所以我們的媒體會解讀部長的每一句話那有可能會放大那這個時候對於這個風險的溝通那當然就是非常重要那通常這個在我記得在疫情期間CDC他們有一整套"},{"start":13032.389,"end":13032.569,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13051.789,"end":13079.955,"text":"立法委員也好媒體的這些假設的問題上面可是如果我們要針對每一個假設提出回應的話那甚至會利用我們的回應來去影響民眾對整個整體安全的認知的看法那我是覺得就是會令我們比較擔心所以在這邊還是希望在溝通的部分在對於民眾的溝通的部分跟國安局還有其他的這些評估的機關的一致性還是非常重要的那第二部分想要請教這個部長關於"},{"start":13081.235,"end":13081.715,"text":"我給你回報啊"},{"start":13104.75,"end":13121.003,"text":"空飄氣球這個事件也是灰色事件之一但我們可以發覺它的空飄它有季節性風向等等這有一個已經歸納出來在某個階段會有比較多的空飄氣球因為空飄氣球它的用途有很廣"},{"start":13121.924,"end":13136.329,"text":"有碳空的還有偵測的等等但我們到目前為止我們所了解大家都碳空所以碳空是什麼測量在某高度外上面的溫度或它這個氣流等等它以便於它將來"},{"start":13137.509,"end":13150.525,"text":"在武器裝備運用方面會有怎麼樣的影響他要找這個參數但我們不幫他來解讀也不報得很樂觀在這個當中可能夾雜一些偵測的作用這我們絕對不會去講說去否定"},{"start":13154.449,"end":13173.27,"text":"但是我們有應應的方法,第一個原則講它已經預約到我們上空了,我們只要有能力的話當然要把它處理掉,但目前它的高度都在我們射程範圍內,也不可能用飛彈去射擊它,但我們有個作為,除了掌控以外我們會告知我們國軍的軍機還有民航局"},{"start":13175.552,"end":13196.657,"text":"在這個航道上飛行的不管是軍機也好民機也好要特別注意我想這個是我們跟民航局已經達成協議而且目前是在做的相關的預警等等其實我之所以問這個實際上的威脅我們希望說如果他並沒有辦法造成實質的威脅的話那我們派潛戰機等等或者是直接把他擊落等等這個就變成"},{"start":13197.777,"end":13211.665,"text":"不符合資源的配比這是不符合資源的配比所以我們也要知道說實質上面的威脅到底是多少如果沒有這樣子的實質上面的威脅那其他的應處方式可能會更加妥當謝謝部長那部長你有提到其實這幾個禮拜"},{"start":13213.246,"end":13240.562,"text":"我想大家都很針對這個金門的事件來去有各種不同的看法那今天又有很不幸的有漁船翻霧的事件周美武署長他今天是有談到說是在禁縣制水域那陳育珍委員他是說是在這個我們直接用他說的話是在金門海域之外是屬於中方治理的海域所以到底是在我們的管轄控制的範圍嗎"},{"start":13242.339,"end":13244.259,"text":"其實我有看到這次的專報內容有提到說支援海巡海域執法的部分"},{"start":13271.445,"end":13290.221,"text":"部長其實在多次的訪問都有提到不以直接介入為原則那我們也是很肯定就是海巡對他們的海警這是不讓事件升級的一個方式可是部長有提到說國軍會隨時保持監控但是如果這個如果說有需要協助的話那有可能會有"},{"start":13291.325,"end":13294.746,"text":"請問具體的方式是什麼?應該是說我們的瞭解是不是就是會以監控為主"},{"start":13313.993,"end":13341,"text":"以先為主,如果有進一步的,我們會經過研判：如果對方升級,那我們不得不做應處的時候：對,該去查證,該去喊話,該去警告確實都沒問題,他還要一直貿然進的話,那就已經就很危險了,那就是不期望看到的結果我們擔憂也就這個,就擦槍走火的狀況,我們很擔憂對,謝謝部長,因為這是一個很困難的工作啦,因為我想當然對於保護"},{"start":13341.9,"end":13365.666,"text":"我國的這一個海空域我們國軍有它重要的責任在可是同時因為兩岸的特殊情況我們又不能夠讓事件升級所以我們能夠使用的手段跟方式其實是很被限制的所以這方面還是希望說至少在能做的部分在輔助的部分還是盡量提供海巡署更多的能量"},{"start":13366.186,"end":13368.687,"text":"最後部長我想要來跟你討論一下這個士兵的待遇軍事待遇的部分"},{"start":13388.397,"end":13410.029,"text":"本辦公室也有提出相關的提案,就是希望能夠增加國軍的福利但是我們也從國防部提供來的資料來看,過去5年軍事官還有士兵的流營率我們看起來是士兵的部分還有士官的部分,那這個都是相對比較低一點的"},{"start":13411.75,"end":13435.271,"text":"如果在軍事觀的這個部分我們希望提高的這種福利跟待遇的話我們還是會以基層的官兵為主所以說對於這些想要留營的對於這些有志於軍旅生活的特別是這個志願的這些我們非常尊重那我們也是希望說能夠增加他的留營率但是說對於基層士兵他的待遇跟福利"},{"start":13435.831,"end":13454.314,"text":"我們是希望說國防部有沒有什麼經濟的作為或提升的方案如果有的話或者是你們甚至可以提出相關的方案我們都很願意來去協助我必須再強調是基層的是軍官因為只有他們有足夠的時間留在軍中的話他們才能夠經過歷練然後繼續往上升中校上校甚至是"},{"start":13454.815,"end":13479.605,"text":"有一天可以來去統一指揮那如果我們最基層的軍事官在前半部就已經離開的話那我想人還是一個部隊最重要的部分所以還是希望部長可不可以提供您的看法一下是很感謝委員對這個關切而且也鼓舞一下我們要改變的話委員會支持事實上我要跟委員報告國軍軍方待遇他看來講本縫還有某些是固定的"},{"start":13480.385,"end":13497.691,"text":"但是有很多工作角色因為你的單位不同或你負責的職長不同他會有很多專業方面加急但我們當然絕對不以此為滿意了但我們要考量要提高他的薪俸待遇的話這是一個整體的問題我們假如有定案了或有建議了"},{"start":13498.331,"end":13499.572,"text":"因為上午有宣告我們邱部長等一下12點要"},{"start":13526.756,"end":13539.361,"text":"參加國安會議所以12點離開那由博鴻輝博副部長帶領接下來請徐欣穎委員上台質詢"},{"start":13560.495,"end":13561.278,"text":"國防部副部長"},{"start":13572.634,"end":13599.929,"text":"蘇媛好本席一位會部長會在那上禮拜本席有特別來本委員會提醒為我們國軍弟兄的食安特別的提醒部長不要讓蘇丹紅不管是調味料或是副食品加工副食品成為我們國軍弟兄"},{"start":13601.069,"end":13602.39,"text":"蘇丹紅的副食品加工食品"},{"start":13620.799,"end":13648.761,"text":"進入了我們的國軍弟兄的部隊中所以這個部分本席主要是要再次的強調因為現在各級政府他們都下令都拒絕所以我們不希望所有被拒絕的食品反而成為保家衛國的我們的國軍弟兄們的餐桌上的食物所以本席要在這邊再次的請"},{"start":13649.782,"end":13654.807,"text":"副部長這個部分您是不是可以我們一定要加強做到可以嗎"},{"start":13656.094,"end":13680.388,"text":"謝謝委員對我們官兵的健康食品安全提出這樣的議題事實上委員上提出來以後我們國防部事實上依照行政院所公布的所有廠家那我們也去清查了我們所有的復工站所提供的產品大概有87項不合格我們都採取預防性的下架那除此之外我們也成立了食安小組去查所以你是說新的不知道的所以才不小心的"},{"start":13680.708,"end":13685.851,"text":"第二題本席想請教本席在海巡署的解凍報告中看到海巡署跟國防部有建立情監偵平台"},{"start":13706.305,"end":13719.295,"text":"平時共同的監控以及掌握海面的動態您可不可以用30秒讓本席瞭解這個情監偵平台他是監控什麼他監控及時的海面資訊嗎還是"},{"start":13721.256,"end":13748.039,"text":"各種海面動態這個我們和海巡署的配合在共同執行任務的時候都是利用我們雷達的陸基上的雷達的監視系統以及我們海岸的巡防系統來做所有的海面上的狀況的監控那我想這個勤監政這些事情呢我們可以這樣講就是說中共的船艦如果從遠來講我們的雷達可以看得見的那我們也會把訊息跟海巡署分享讓我們來共同掌握海空的狀況"},{"start":13750.822,"end":13770.9,"text":"請問這個情監偵平台的海面動態資訊有沒有掌握到之前金門海巡事件大陸船隻和海巡艦艇的動態和事件經過報告委員這個詳細的情況我不願在這邊說明但是我可以向委員報告這個都可以掌握是不是有機密"},{"start":13772.485,"end":13791.16,"text":"是不是有國防機密?是的,我要這樣講,這牽扯到我們的所有海空狀況的監控的狀況,但我跟委員報告,這些都是我們掌控當中。那如果是機密,那是不是去除機密部分有提供給檢察官參考?因為這個事件整個現在檢察官在辦。"},{"start":13792.323,"end":13808.351,"text":"報告委員,就我所知道現在這個事件已經針對到司法證據所有的證據只要檢察官提出來,我們都會提供所以都有提供再來本席也要請教我們這個海巡艦艇"},{"start":13810.052,"end":13834.456,"text":"我們台灣的海巡艦艇因為數量或頓速我們都遠遠不及大陸的我想國防部很清楚所以國防部對海巡有沒有這種即時馳援的機制應該是有的嗎當然是有是的那所以本席在這裡主要就是要特別的來提醒跟強調我們千萬不能讓我們的海巡艦艇被對岸的"},{"start":13834.98,"end":13840.286,"text":"實際上我們跟海巡署的合作是有非常好的默契而且我們有相關的行動準則那原則上我們現在所有的呼籲的行動是以海巡署它為主"},{"start":13858.004,"end":13882.154,"text":"那我們所有的海軍的艦艇都在旁邊協助海巡署在執行這樣的業務所以在合作上面來講我們能夠在今天台海的狀況縱使中共的船艦每天進入到我的禁限制水域甚至於到達我們20海里我們都是採取相關的行動準則來抵禦這些中共的灰色地帶衝突升高"},{"start":13883.073,"end":13891.477,"text":"所以做最好的互相支援的準備再來本席想請教我們現在兩岸局勢到底有多緊張包委員這個我必須要跟委員報告事實上我們現在兩岸的局勢在全球來看都是在可控制的範圍裡面那就國軍的立場來看我們就跟我們部長所強調的我們要一定要料敵從寬欲敵從嚴這是我們國軍的立場是的那本席"},{"start":13913.209,"end":13926.644,"text":"這個主要是要反映我們新竹縣我們的竹北西區就是靠海邊那裡我不知道我們國軍的航道是不是非常多民眾反映空軍日夜訓練"},{"start":13928.366,"end":13954.387,"text":"日夜訓練、夜夜訓練嚴重的影響當地居民的生活作息當然我們站在國家安全的立場我們當然支持我們國防部該做的訓練但是已經讓民眾日夜都沒辦法休息他們致電國防部國防部就反應兩岸局勢非常非常緊張所以我們就是需要這麼頻繁的訓練那這個部分民眾的生活該怎麼辦這種"},{"start":13956.308,"end":13982.654,"text":"緊張的局勢那民眾他的生活要緊跟著緊張到什麼時候還有生活完全的被打擾這情況怎麼辦報告委員我跟委員報告所以本席想了解的是這裡面有沒有過多的過多的訓練或者是怎麼樣對民眾這裡因為他們畢竟長久居住在那裡這個部分要解決報告委員我首先必須要強調現在的民眾對國防的關心的程度非常感激"},{"start":13983.334,"end":14000.973,"text":"那我們事實上我們可以看到現在海空的動態他們不是關係他們是因為我知道尤其尤其現在中共的灰色地帶衝突他不是只有利用日間夜間也來實施海空的這樣子的一個灰色地帶衝突所以我們的官兵我們當然知道你們需要那現在這個中間有沒有我們會把這樣子"},{"start":14005.578,"end":14006.539,"text":"有關於居民的溝通尤其是機場旁邊的噪音"},{"start":14034.74,"end":14048.235,"text":"這些里長跟我們的所有的連隊都保持一個很好的互動這個就是他們跟我反映的那如果有這個問題希望我提供誰反映我們今天會請那個連隊去跟這些居民來做溝通謝謝委員的提供謝謝"},{"start":14055.34,"end":14065.325,"text":"接下來請張家俊委員．張家俊．張家俊委員不在．請葉元之．葉元之．葉元之委員不在．請伍麗華委員上臺質詢。謝謝主席。有請副部長。"},{"start":14086.211,"end":14112.292,"text":"請副部長副部長您好我們一般做軍事管制區應該都會有公告嘛是的那我是這樣子齁我是為民請命啦有鄉親族人跟我陳情因為呢他們被劃設在加東戰備跑道玉泉村炸射靶場的管制區"},{"start":14114.114,"end":14128.488,"text":"所以他們因為面臨一些建築的問題才發現原來我們是位在縣建區那我就要去查什麼時候公告那公告查不到所以我就索資"},{"start":14130.51,"end":14150.972,"text":"被影響的這個你應該看到那個表格有九個部落我就所知那國防部給我的資料是說一個民國八十年的這一份公文那另外就是附上兩張圖一個是戰備跑道的那另外一個是炸射靶場的"},{"start":14153.033,"end":14176.459,"text":"我想要請問一下副部長我們禁憲管制的依據法令是哪一個法令我想這個禁憲件委員手上我們所提供的資料就是我們在80年所公布的這樣的法的依據我想這個禁憲件是當時公告以後到現在為止隨著地區的發展"},{"start":14177.472,"end":14204.345,"text":"而很多的會做修訂那其實我是查到有一個叫海岸山地及重要軍事設施管制區與禁艦限艦範圍劃定公告及管制作業規定對嗎那我也看到他修訂過4次那最近的一次是103年的7月1日那他其實是有規定那我們看一下這個規定的第9條第8款"},{"start":14205.666,"end":14221.912,"text":"他說管制區設管單位應將公告之限制因素、授權核定高度、高距比、借莊位置、起算點還有高層等相關資料要提供給誰呢?地方政府主管建築的機關去作為審核申建案的依據對吧?對的"},{"start":14227.734,"end":14238.266,"text":"那現在我就想要請教一下根據這個管制作業要點齁其實他有一個示意圖那我看我們提供的這個民國80年這個戰備跑道圖齁我看起來畫法是一致的沒有問題是"},{"start":14242.731,"end":14266.393,"text":"但是另外一個那個炸射靶場的呢其實按照我們的這個作業規定他也有示意圖跟你們提供給我的呢長得是有點不太像那我另外找到一個叫軍事重要軍事管制區的公告示意圖也是那個位置的畫的長得也是不太一樣那所以我想要請教的第一個"},{"start":14267.054,"end":14284.82,"text":"就是我其實看到這個是107年的11月22號才增加我剛才講的這一些鄉當然包含我們9個原住民的部落那您可以看到這個部落地圖上它都是靠近山區對吧"},{"start":14286.46,"end":14290.323,"text":"那107年的前後呢我們發現他的憲建高度也不一樣我怎麼查出來的因為我要當柯南嘛那我就發現說有人呢他想要去查詢他是不是位在環境敏感地區因為你要知道小型露營場的"},{"start":14303.754,"end":14314.079,"text":"這個也是我任內我一直在努力在前年5月通過公告那很多人就要開始查我是不是位在19項的環境敏感地區結果呢他確實是位在管制區那回復什麼呢我們八軍團指揮部回復說這個點就是那個那個內圈那個紅點點有沒有看到那個內圈淡白的第一圈他說他的現建高度是40公尺"},{"start":14329.185,"end":14332.806,"text":"好,我又查到105年也有人去問過這個問題我們的回覆是告訴他,縣建高度是30公尺好,那我們看一下民國80年你們提供的那個圖他中間那個淡黃是進建區外圍有縣建10米、縣建30米、縣建40米越外圍應該是數值越高嘛"},{"start":14351.092,"end":14378.165,"text":"但是你們的112年的回覆跟105年的回覆是相反的但是我認為112年的回覆是正確的為什麼?因為照理說它應該是按照你們原來的10米但是它有增加海拔高度所以才變40米可是現在我是想要請教一下副部長你看一下我們這個部落我現在舉的是海拔最低的那個南河村"},{"start":14379.105,"end":14401.236,"text":"那個南俄村你看一下它的海拔那個高出來的部分是它的整個海拔它最低的地方是海拔138米但是按照你們的規定它是限建70米那我真是不知道它到底要怎麼蓋房子就全村都在你們的規定以下我想先請教一下就是副部長您有什麼看法"},{"start":14401.943,"end":14414.772,"text":"報告委員我跟委員我們為什麼這樣一直修訂齊來有志第一個我們不能影響地方的發展這是第一個第二個因素我必須要跟委員強調進縣建的區域牽扯到補償金有時候我們很為難我們認為說這個地方"},{"start":14420.595,"end":14437.925,"text":"我當然理解那有些部落就說我們希望列入那我們就要去監測這噪音是依法去看他有沒有達到這個標準那再來我上次也講非常清楚拿豐田機場為例他的如果說是下滑到紀念艦"},{"start":14438.985,"end":14458.594,"text":"我們以前畫的位置在半山腰那我請問半山腰誰會去蓋房子你畫在那邊沒有用所以你有解方嗎據聞說我要畫的原因是你懂我意思那噪音是達到標準他說我要補償金但基於地方上考量的時候民意大於這些人想要蓋房子那我們就去想"},{"start":14460.114,"end":14481.061,"text":"謝謝副部長我跟您說其實他們來找我澄清我最忙的時候選舉的時候去年12月我也開了一個協調會好現在呢我的會議決議內容是一兩週內回復現建範圍徒資重新套會及修正公告預定期程沒有"},{"start":14481.981,"end":14500.098,"text":"我是因為今天要質詢,昨天才給我那個公告跟那兩張副圖。第二個,兩個月內提出空軍加東靶場周邊限建限高補償草案當然這個是你們最忌諱的,也沒有。第三個,空軍司令部派員會同屏東縣政府致受影響用地範圍辦理限康並複製本辦,也沒有。"},{"start":14504.042,"end":14519.369,"text":"好那所以我就是想要請教一下按照我們這個管制作業規定第10條的第二款已有建築物或高地組隔的經社管單位會刊同意後得核准建築有這個規定嗎那副部長你能不能夠要求各社管單位依規定辦理會刊維護民眾的居住權益當然委員沒問題"},{"start":14527.772,"end":14548.926,"text":"這個是我們的責任謝謝 謝謝部長那我希望未來我們還是要針對管制範圍高度要須依規定完成公告並附完整圖說可以嗎這一定要的那第二個就是說已經有建築物或高地相隔的建築申請一定要去會刊好不好要不然縣政府也很困擾啊那針對這些受管制的影響民眾的權益我希望"},{"start":14551.622,"end":14575.25,"text":"雖然你很忌諱啦還是要有一個補償草案當然是當然是那最好就是都不需要動盜補償啦是的好不好謝謝委員謝謝您那我還有一個第二個問題一定要問一下因為你們在旭海有一個屏東S022工程要營區的興建嘛那我跟您說我們有一個原基法那原基法裡面有一個部落諮商同意辦法好現在重點來了我簡單的講現在我們的這個你們的部會這個是什麼"},{"start":14581.172,"end":14596.277,"text":"國防部嗎還是什麼海軍司令部你們的海軍司令部很好有去問原民會那原民會就發了一個函說請相公所認定那相公所呢就認定之後呢也認定關西部落"},{"start":14596.957,"end":14601.418,"text":"然後呢結果你們後來你應該知道結果回來你們竟然說你們不需要遵照這個我唸一下還是您唸來你們的回函說本案應非屬興建或擴建之土地開發行為從而無原住民原基法第21條適用亦無從配合櫃所進行諮商同意程序認定關係部落他們又再一次跟你們申復你們又說再次申復立場就是本案應屬非屬登登登登登"},{"start":14626.482,"end":14626.802,"text":"海軍司令部在做法上來講"},{"start":14647.04,"end":14662.456,"text":"這個現在是兩個不同的法我認為這是要經過協調但是我們一定要遵守這個原住民的基本法我認為我們海軍司令在這方面跟委員在做溝通好那我就是拜託您因為我覺得部落智商同意辦法它是法律工具喔是是是"},{"start":14663.257,"end":14683.674,"text":"他的精神跟目標跟你們所講的敦青木林其實是一致的所以藐視這套工具其實地方不要講鄉公所不能接受民眾也不能接受全體原住民族人也會覺得受辱這個我們會來檢討那這個部分一定要處理好不好是的好的謝謝副部長謝謝主席兩週回覆喔好謝謝"},{"start":14691.778,"end":14713.11,"text":"接下來請吳思堯委員．吳思堯、吳思堯委員不在．請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在．請鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在．請羅明財、羅明財、羅明財委員不在．請蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜委員不在．請鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在．請翁曉林、翁曉林、翁曉林委員不在．請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在"},{"start":14717.625,"end":14742.157,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員．除不在場外均已發言完畢．報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員．洪森漢委員．葉元之委員提出書面質詢．請列入記錄並刊登公報．請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆．本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分．或要求補充資料者．亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供．"},{"start":14745.279,"end":14747,"text":"本日會議到此結束 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MANGA"},{"start":1872.452,"end":1893.889,"text":"好我們繼續開會進行討論事項請宣讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣中油股份有限公司今日詢答宣讀完畢好本日議程排定經濟部主管的台灣中油公司的營業預算那我們首先請王美花部長報告"},{"start":1903.447,"end":1908.952,"text":"主席、各位委員今天針對中油公司的113年預算經濟部先做簡單的報告第一個在去年由於俄烏戰爭都沒有停止以哈衝突又起國際的能源"},{"start":1920.39,"end":1942.224,"text":"原物料價格有波動中油公司配合政府穩定物價政策吸收器材有天然氣跟液化石油氣的部分售價造成112年度稅前虧損大概180億元那中油持續穩定國內的油氣供應加強公安管理那配合能源跟淨零轉型"},{"start":1943.685,"end":1952.752,"text":"以下就幾個重點第一個在穩定油氣供應的部分中油公司原有進口以長期合約為主現貨為輔長期合約大概佔55%到65%來維持長期的穩定購油來源其餘的35跟45會配合鏈廠實際的需求逐月在現貨市場採購來增加操作的彈性跟兼顧"},{"start":1972.368,"end":1975.131,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":1996.282,"end":2013.963,"text":"關於企業的部分、液化天然氣採購也是以穩定國內供應用氣為主要的目標。中長期企業佔75%,短約的部分大概佔25%。中長期的部分主要的企業來自澳洲、卡達美國、巴布亞、"},{"start":2015.22,"end":2017.482,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2045.46,"end":2066.672,"text":"陳朗山管理、制程安全管理、公安集合、緊急應變、事故調查等等來確保人員的安全跟設備的可靠。本部會持續督促中油公司加強運用科技的輔具來公安的管理,落實SOP的執行,強化公安的紀律跟查核以零災害為目標。"},{"start":2067.893,"end":2080.771,"text":"那在推動淨零轉型的部分呢中油公司主要拓展新商機來循序推動淨零轉型那主要有幾個部分那第一個是優有的部分呢"},{"start":2082.13,"end":2101.301,"text":"在生產端會數據化管理油田應用新興的科技來提升碳採的績效那也會調整現有煉化的結構減產燃料增產石化品來發展新材料在銷售端的部分會拓展智慧綠能站建置電動機車充換電設備那減碳的策略部分推動製程的節能減碳"},{"start":2110.816,"end":2131.672,"text":"公映碳綜合的產品以及生質能燃料推動產品碳足跡盤查跟內部的碳淨價擬定有效的減量計畫開發碳補桌再利用跟封存的技術節能政策部分跨入氫能的初期領域依照國際的氫能技術跟市場發展的趨勢逐步協助國內經濟氫能的供應跟應用市場今年底"},{"start":2139.718,"end":2153.526,"text":"預計來完成國內第一座移動式的示範加輕站也會配合再生能源政策開發國內淺層生成的地熱今年度規劃在宜蘭的土廠建置一座4MW的地熱電廠營業的收支跟營餘的部分113年度的預算編列收入"},{"start":2160.546,"end":2165.669,"text":"一兆2254億元支出是一兆2227億元稅後淨利是26億元加112年度的預算淨利1億7000億元增加25億元那主要是預估國際原油跟天然氣價格回跌進口成本減少"},{"start":2182.847,"end":2193.813,"text":"投資計畫跟資金來源部分今年度購置的固定資產投資主要用於強化天然氣的速氣韌性公司轉型、鏈子結構改善以及例行性的設備等編列了528億餘元其中專案的計畫包含12項332億餘元3項新興計畫4億2000餘元合計是337億餘元"},{"start":2210.262,"end":2229.446,"text":"那一般的建築跟設備計畫編列191億餘元那資金的來源呢320億餘元向國內借款其餘的207億餘元以自由資金來支應那以上做簡單的報告那等一下請這個負責人做詳細的報告好謝謝部長接下來我們請中油公司李順清董事長報告"},{"start":2248.118,"end":2271.175,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家好僅就公司當前的經營環境跟經營策略以及113年的經營重點在這裡跟各位委員提出二要的報告首先報告當前經營環境在國際能源市場的情勢方面111年2月24日俄烏戰爭爆發之後"},{"start":2273.317,"end":2276.379,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2296.269,"end":2310.179,"text":"造成了國際能源供應任性上的一個衝擊也包括全球商品價格的一個暴漲在3月的時候布蘭特原油甚至漲到137塊美元一桶天然氣也創價了歷史新高現貨來到84塊半每百萬BTU"},{"start":2318.264,"end":2343.212,"text":"那其後為了減緩戰爭帶來的通膨避免陷入經濟衰退在美國聯準會帶頭之下全球陸續跟進採取緊縮貨幣的政策利率因快速攀升不利於需求的擴增所以在112年間布蘭特原油起水跌落到80塊以下對此OPEC為了確保油價"},{"start":2345.452,"end":2368.151,"text":"來決定延長減產的協議到今年的年底為止而且沙烏地阿拉伯跟俄國兩個國家甚至大幅的減產那在112年的10月7號整個以巴衝突之後布蘭特原油再度漲破90塊美元一桶那歐洲的期價一個禮拜漲幅甚至高達了46%那"},{"start":2371.013,"end":2382.599,"text":"一八衝突、二屋戰爭、OPEC Plus的生產決策以及美國原油的產量多寡對全球經濟的影響都是國際油價、氣價後續走勢觀察的重點那在第二點來談到國內油品市場國內就是中油"},{"start":2391.098,"end":2416.534,"text":"日鏈60萬桶台塑日鏈54萬桶那台灣中油公司在器材油的市佔率都維持在80%以上那這幾年因為台塑石化他以外銷出口為主他的獲利空間最近受到限縮所以轉向國內來搶佔國內的器材油市場那另外在燃料油部分因為"},{"start":2417.594,"end":2436.125,"text":"為了提升它的效益,煉製為高價值的器材行等等,所以燃料有部分的一個進口。政府公司身為國營事業兼負責充分供應國內各項油品、天然氣及石化燃料的重要任務。那我們也會配合政府穩定物價的政策。"},{"start":2436.865,"end":2448.753,"text":"長期以來我們都致力在提供優良的油氣產品提升服務的品質那第二大部分來報告公司的經營策略面對快速變遷的經營環境以及未來能源產業的一個發展趨勢近年來我們已經陸續展開各項轉型策略並且以"},{"start":2457.578,"end":2472.533,"text":"自立成為多元創新永續是國際營業公司為公司的心願景,並且定定的包括邁向近年碳排追求永續發展在內的113年度的六大發展策略以邁向永續經營。"},{"start":2474.995,"end":2495.329,"text":"在第3大部分來報告113年度公司經營的重點,這裡大概總共有7點首先還是要強化公安環保政府公司長期以來一直秉持公安百分百還有公安零災害的理念我們在重塑公安文化致力於降低重大事故的發生尤其要避免職災"},{"start":2497.03,"end":2515.583,"text":"那在徹底落實公安查核制度還有包括改善承染商的管理制度等等我們已經全部的場域都取得ISO 45001及台灣職業安全衛生管理系統的一個外部驗證那這些都是每年績效考核的一個重點"},{"start":2516.443,"end":2529.654,"text":"在環保方面為了因應環保法規的日趨發展、日趨嚴格那積極提出了一些改善計畫那最重要的是要落實執行以提升各個場域的環境品質"},{"start":2531.736,"end":2547.525,"text":"在環境規劃上我們持續推動環境會計跟ISO14001的一個環境管理系統在空污方面持續在配合政府推動各項空污改善的計畫尤其是VOC就是非化性的有機物"},{"start":2548.386,"end":2569.303,"text":"自主檢測的比例不斷的在提高來列管高洩漏風險的一個設備元件來這樣子改善空氣的品質另外因應氣候變遷公司也訂定了中期的檢探目標我們致力在2030年要相較於基準年的2005年要減排49.5%"},{"start":2571.585,"end":2597.125,"text":"也就是從1158萬公噸的排放要降到585萬公噸那我們會持續推動溫室氣體的一個盤查節能減碳的工作氣候變遷調適的作業然後會依據巨事發展的成熟度導入再生能源、氫能、碳捕捉、利用或封存等等負碳技術面對2050近年碳排中油公司以優油、減碳、節能三大路徑已經規劃了"},{"start":2599.085,"end":2600.326,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2624.266,"end":2624.446,"text":"第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":2651.704,"end":2653.209,"text":"關鍵就是設施韌性的一個投資計畫"},{"start":2655.689,"end":2681.963,"text":"在第3項我們報告加強經濟服務提升市場競爭力政府公司持續在加強加油站這個門面的一個經濟服務配合政府的政策來推廣行動支付使消費者有更多元的選擇我們營造捷徑又友善的加油環境來提升市場的競爭力持續提供多樣化及便捷的多角化服務讓"},{"start":2683.624,"end":2709.952,"text":"中油交站能夠變成人車生活的一個服務站那這裡頭包括複合式的商店洗車快寶還有一些家用產品包括我們的來速咖啡等等我們希望能夠滿足顧客日益多元的消費需求來同時也來建置電動汽車一個充電站的一個設備使交站能夠成為提供多元能源及複合式服務的一個補給站"},{"start":2712.239,"end":2728.514,"text":"接下來報告發展石化、高石化因應全球近年的趨勢中油公司以研發帶動轉型一方面掌握低碳趨勢來優化油氣的價值鏈一方面依照技術的進展規劃氫能再生能源、互碳技術等等"},{"start":2729.034,"end":2756.629,"text":"我們也會應用高科技5G AIoT那在高質材料及循環領域方面我們在開發高質化實化產品兼顧循環經濟的綠色創新產品這裡頭有包括相關的計畫都已經提到主管機關來核定之中實化高質化的推動是落實循環經濟的重點也是逐步轉型升級邁向永續潔淨能源公司的關鍵"},{"start":2758.228,"end":2782.222,"text":"中共是為了填補國內石化基本原料的缺口甚至包括未來可能有過剩的器材油我們同時要建立國內自己自主的一個原料的供應我們也在推動鏈化轉型產業升級的一個投資計畫希望能夠掌握石化基本原料然後能夠來優先供應給新材料循環專業園區從此來帶動國內石化廠商能夠投資"},{"start":2786.864,"end":2812.24,"text":"總是5G利率能依裁半導體等等的一個高質化的產品在拓展國際市場方面配合國家的一個經濟發展及能源政策中共公司其實長年以來推動國外的碳採合作還有包括擴大經營中的礦區的合作計畫爭取讓路的一個機會以充分掌握自主漁園同時配合新南向政策"},{"start":2813.12,"end":2827.49,"text":"我們在越南的一個逢業潤滑油廠也在111年開始正式來營運透過海外的布局提升台灣中油公司的能源監督也透過中油公司在全球的一個市場版圖"},{"start":2828.611,"end":2848.841,"text":"來朝向國際能源公司的目標的前進在應用新興科技方面中國公司逐步導入聯工智慧大數據虛擬實境5G、AOT等等應用在生產、銷售、儲印、公關、航保各個環節那我們希望透過建置數據平台進行資料整合跟分析"},{"start":2849.461,"end":2869.856,"text":"以擬定重要的決策來緊急應變。期望可以在兼顧公安環保的情況下來提高公司的受益。最後一項來報告布局再生能源那中國公司除了已經在推動太陽光電之外我們在利潤方面也不斷在增加那包括在低劣的能源"},{"start":2870.776,"end":2890.154,"text":"我們在土廠正在建置低熱的發電設備那後續會持續來擴大裡頭的一個量能那在發動地區也跟民間業者來合作擴大低熱的開發為了達成政府2050淨零碳排的目標我們也在推動台灣陸域海域濱海"},{"start":2891.095,"end":2892.616,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2911.633,"end":2911.953,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2929.223,"end":2954.798,"text":"國際業者進行離岸風電的一個投資評估我們在111年12月取得離岸風電區塊開發第一期的容量分配那也已經獲得核准那一定在113年可以參與海盛風場的一個開發那以上報告敬請各位委員不吝指教好謝謝李董事長接下來我們請中油公司總經理方正仁方總來報告"},{"start":2964.941,"end":2988.031,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早。個人請就中油公司112年、113年到2月底的營運概況以及就113年營業預算的一個重要內容來向各位做個說明首先在第一項112年度以及113年度到2月的一個營運概況中油公司在112年實際總收入是1兆1180.12億元"},{"start":2995.034,"end":3000.956,"text":"總支出是1,349.24億元本期競損是169.12億元跟112年預算數來比的話虧損是增加了170.91億元這個部分主要是配合政府穩定物價政策在售價的部分能夠配合油氣價公式來去足額調整所致"},{"start":3022.903,"end":3047.183,"text":"今年到2月底我們的實際總收入是1710.12億元總支出是1794.42億元競損稅後是84.3億元這主要也是配合政府穩定物價政策所致第二點報告就是今年度我們營業預算的一個概要"},{"start":3048.304,"end":3069.081,"text":"首先在原油液化天然氣成品採購的部分在原油採購我們預估今年進口的原油到達2194萬公柄那FOB的價格是按照每桶80.5元來去估列在液化天然氣跟成品採購的部分液化天然氣預計今年會進口27530百萬立方公尺"},{"start":3074.085,"end":3092.555,"text":"那麼在進口甲基第3丁基米是53萬公瓶那麼LPG是31萬公噸那麼在油氣的鏈產的部分成品天然氣預計會生產27484百萬立方公尺跟去年來比的話會增加1221百萬立方公尺"},{"start":3100.68,"end":3104.743,"text":"在原油煉製的部分2195萬公瓶跟去年來比的話也會增加35萬公瓶"},{"start":3110.188,"end":3121.238,"text":"在油氣銷售的部分我們預計今年銷售成品天然氣到達26,993百萬立方公尺跟去年來比的話會增加4.70%那麼在石油煉產品的部分銷售2261萬公秘跟去年來比的話也會增加2.68%"},{"start":3134.773,"end":3152.486,"text":"另外報告有關在油氣探勘及開發的部分這主要也是要為了掌握我們自有的油氣的能源那我們會加強國內外入海域的一個探勘的一個工作慎選國外的一個目標國家來爭取新礦區"},{"start":3154.299,"end":3175.07,"text":"同時在國內的部分會進行土廠低熱井的一個鑽探、地熱廠的一個建置以及鐵棧山碳補存的一個先導試驗計畫在國外的部分也會去爭取跟國際大油公司的碳採合作的機會在今年我們編列的碳供應費預算是63.37億元"},{"start":3178.152,"end":3207.692,"text":"另外在服務品質提升的部分剛我們董事長已經做了詳細的說明我這邊就不再贅述另外在研究發展的部分今年我們研發預算的編列是51.49億元佔營業收入是0.42%研究發的領域包括了四個方面包括智慧綠能、高值材料、循環經濟、智慧安環等四個面向"},{"start":3208.913,"end":3225.568,"text":"在公安環保改善的部分我們會著重在工作的紀律跟落實持續從制度面、設備面以及執行面來進行改善今年編列的公安環保及衛生的預算是編列115.88億元"},{"start":3228.71,"end":3232.814,"text":"在固定資產投資的部分今年投資總額編列預算是528.5億元在專案計畫的部分15項編列了337.07億元另外有三項的新興計畫另外還有一般建築及設備的計畫預算也編列了191.43億元"},{"start":3254.008,"end":3277.187,"text":"那麼預估我們今年在收支營業的部分今年的預算收入總額到達一兆兩千兩百五十四點五六億元那麼總支出是一兆兩千兩百二十七點五六億元那麼預計我們今年的淨利預算的編列淨利是二十七億元那麼跟上年度來比較"},{"start":3278.388,"end":3294.729,"text":"我們增加了25.21億元的一個淨利那麼這個主要的考慮是因為在預估我們今年的原油價格跟去年來比它是下跌的情況而且在原油進口的成本減少之下"},{"start":3295.53,"end":3319.357,"text":"以及在天然氣進口的成本回穩之下今年來講,淨利會較去年增加另外也做說明對於這個油價以及預算油價的一個編列情形112年Brandt的油價平均每桶83美元因為OPEC Plus的一個延長減產協議到今年年底同時也在額外減產"},{"start":3321.89,"end":3340.7,"text":"減產到今年的6月底所以市場上普遍的評估今年的油價會維持在每桶80美元以上所以我們今年編列的預算是以比較保守的油價每桶80.5元來去編列那麼上述合理那麼以上報告敬請會議指教謝謝"},{"start":3349.706,"end":3367.723,"text":"謝謝方正總經理的報告我們現在開始進行詢答委員質詢前原例做幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記首先我們請登記第一位陳婷菲委員發言"},{"start":3378.352,"end":3403.281,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長來,請王部長是,委員好部長我們一直強調就是說在台電的部分因為非戰之罪這是整個國際情勢然後二五戰爭而造成的一個狀況那所有的"},{"start":3404.357,"end":3429.462,"text":"這一個天然氣等等的一些原物料整個上漲所以導致台電這個店家的部分有虧損而且虧損的比例是增加那我們認為這個部分不應該由我們人民來買單全面買單我們才認為說應該要來編列預算去做這樣的一個所謂的撥補"},{"start":3431.926,"end":3456.112,"text":"可是好像我們的主計長跟你的態度有點不一樣主計長的態度是說現在可運用的才1500億那如果全部都給你台電來做這樣的一個虧損補貼的話那麼政府手上可以用的餘額幾乎沒有這是很危險的那這怎麼辦"},{"start":3457.708,"end":3457.908,"text":"1500億當時候是誰訂出來的?"},{"start":3485.171,"end":3512.66,"text":"一千五百億不是定的問題而是說我們希望爭取跟院裡面爭取是啊就是說你這個應該也是你們有計算過的嗎大概是要有這樣的金額嗎是不是是怎麼樣的金額其實是我們只能表達說希望院裡面可以怎麼樣來支持當然我說部長這個1500億也是你當時候台電經過計算然後最小的"},{"start":3513.78,"end":3517.805,"text":"一個對於民眾整個漲電價壓力的一個數字嘛應該是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":3523.376,"end":3544.963,"text":"那所以才會有1500億張的數字這個應該也是你們已經有估算過的你們也因為估算過才用這樣去跟行政院提出我們的訴求那當然行政院還沒核定但是我們看到主計長、主計總署他的態度就不一樣"},{"start":3546.653,"end":3554.503,"text":"那如果今天沒有到達1500億那是不是有可能我們漲的電費會更高?"},{"start":3556.685,"end":3561.589,"text":"相關的這個細節坦白講那個很多的數據然後我們會很來精算那另外一個就是說在過往電價審議會這邊也其實都有考慮到確實包括通膨的問題怎麼樣怎麼樣做細緻的安排那也確實前兩次也有這樣的例子不是部長因為今天這個新聞一出來大家開始擔心啊因為1500億是當時候"},{"start":3586.885,"end":3606.473,"text":"經濟部一定是經由我們國營會台電大家估算過大概有1500億會對於整個電價的虧損跟我們漲電價的壓力會減到最輕所以才有這個數字可是現在主計總署的意思是我們如果要用1500億"},{"start":3608.354,"end":3628.893,"text":"可能未來政府的一個運用餘額就會不夠會有危險所以這個會產生什麼樣的狀況那是不是如果萬一沒有1500億會漲得更高部長我今天在這裡慎重拜託"},{"start":3630.987,"end":3658.836,"text":"今天我們不能讓人民有太多壓力在電價部分我們一直講既然有撥補或是有虧損的一個補貼我們要從民生不論多少就是從民生不要讓民生漲得太高你一漲的話會轉嫁到物價物價一上去就回不來了"},{"start":3660.553,"end":3688.884,"text":"現在承受不了現在的狀況是承受不了的部長可不可以是是委員提到的這個部分確實也是店家審議會裡面最關切的其中一個議題那這個我們會細緻的安排是就是不論你今天最後院版拍板定案跟主計總處協調到哪一個金額不管多少金額都是要由民生"},{"start":3690.163,"end":3718.037,"text":"先去做這樣的一個撥補補貼絕對不能讓整個民生壓力造成炸鍋這個是我們再三拜託否則今天我相信這樣的一個新聞出來大家就開始議論紛紛了是不是會一飛從天一次漲到夠一次漲到足"},{"start":3719.176,"end":3747.114,"text":"這些很多的問號就出來了對現在整個民生經濟的發展絕對是不利的是我們都會很仔細的來考慮委員提的這些問題這個部長要麻煩一下齁是極力爭取回歸民生是讓民生能夠穩定住物價這才是我們在經濟發展當中非常重要的依據還有"},{"start":3750.097,"end":3775.515,"text":"我之前非常關心的就是我們的管線問題部長我們地下管線的圖資國營事業地下管線圖資是由國營司在負責的但是你知道當時候其實台南就發生了台南山上淨水廠下游送水管線的工程被挖斷管路"},{"start":3778.914,"end":3805.677,"text":"上個禮拜台南仁德又發生了天然氣管線遭挖斷雖然緊急處置後還有待修復可是雖然馬上去做了緊急處理可是表示這是有危機的我們地下管線的圖資根本沒有辦法監控挖下去發生問題了"},{"start":3808.103,"end":3814.734,"text":"才知道怎麼彌補可是如果沒有挖到大家就覺得是這樣嗎我們的圖資在地底下"},{"start":3818.632,"end":3820.895,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3839.776,"end":3859.292,"text":"地形有一點點變動這是第一個那第二個早期也不可能變動到說因為他在施工一定有一個所謂的阿蘇比的空間他不可能說我今天就從他旁邊硬是要把他挖進去不可能嘛他一定有一個緩衝那這個緩衝請問怎麼可能會因為整個地質變動然後差了那麼遠差了那麼大"},{"start":3869.64,"end":3872.503,"text":"現在這些我有責成大家第一個有新的科技第二個有一些比較好的工法來預防這些再挖斷的問題現在就是有可以在施工前使用探測儀器進行探測現在是重點我們有沒有落實大家就便宜行事"},{"start":3892.159,"end":3892.559,"text":"關於經濟部主管．3月11日及14日三天一次會議"},{"start":3923.24,"end":3949.201,"text":"之前我就要求過了現在還沒看到半點文字麻煩一下一個月馬上給我們他們前幾天有送一份報告是剛送那個不很清楚不很清楚我要清楚你們未來SOP要怎麼做謝謝來那個國營司可以嗎一個月內可以把清楚的資料都送然後也送給經濟委員會的每一位委員好不好謝謝"},{"start":3959.922,"end":3985.193,"text":"我們請邱映昭委質詢謝謝我直接請中油董事長請中油董事長董事長您好請教一下"},{"start":3993.988,"end":3997.191,"text":"您剛剛的報告我們知道中油去年的虧損"},{"start":3998.939,"end":4022.904,"text":"大概是有累計虧損達到318億那今年到目前為止到2月為止你們的虧損、營虧大概是負的102億同事請教您覺得今年的整體的營利狀況或者是整體中油的營運狀況會是怎麼樣有沒有可能今年會轉虧為營"},{"start":4025.254,"end":4033.517,"text":"依照您剛剛有一些國際的因素啦等等有沒有可能?根文報告我們內部根據國際大機構的油價跟氣價的預估我們認為到年底這個大概打平"},{"start":4041.172,"end":4041.192,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":4063.556,"end":4064.857,"text":"接下來我要請教您的第二個問題"},{"start":4094.296,"end":4121.315,"text":"這個我們去年也問過這部長昨天在經濟部的業務報告的時候也表示在這個能源政策的方面今年氫能跟地熱要列為優先的布局對不對董事長為什麼特別點名您上來我去年也問過您您說在去年的年底2023年要引進全台的首座移動式的加氫站"},{"start":4122.676,"end":4144.091,"text":"現在已經2024年了請問您的手作移動式加輕站在哪裡我們到目前為止還看不到這個加輕站既然經濟部認為輕能是優先的佈局但是我常常覺得中油在您的帶領之下"},{"start":4145.97,"end":4174.303,"text":"沒有大錯但是呢也沒有太大的進步就您可能個性比較保守所以很多事情你不敢大步的往前走比如說您去年答應的這個嘉青站到底在哪裡沒看到來我再給您看一下我們要推動輕能要推動輕能的嘉青站你必須要讓這個嘉青站普及我們才有可能去推動嘛"},{"start":4176.243,"end":4203.555,"text":"這是世界各國美國呢他們要投入70億美元要去蓋7個氫能中心歐洲要在2030年之前要產生1000萬噸的再生的氫能源那你說包括日本、韓國他們的這個氫能是蓬勃發展可是我目前為止我看不到"},{"start":4204.909,"end":4227.947,"text":"到底台灣的輕能發展的策略在哪裡我連一座移動式的嘉慶站都等不到啊來 董事長您要不要說明一下謝謝委員的指導我想我們本來目標確定是去年年底希望能夠引進第一座可移動式的嘉慶站那我們其實跟得標廠商是德國的令的"},{"start":4229.928,"end":4251.04,"text":"在整個過程中大概有一些misunderstanding所以他本來預定去年11月之前可以交貨的那整個要延到今年目前我們跟他談的最新進度是今年6月才能夠交貨那我們在這個月3月11號也完成FAT就是到Factory去做一些場的一個驗證"},{"start":4253.502,"end":4279.974,"text":"這部分我們其實也在去年11月能源署公布的加清站清燃料這樣子一個設置經營許可的管理辦法出來以後我們也跟高雄市政府來去遞件因為我們第一座加清站準備是在高雄市政府那也跟城市長做過報告那目前這部分的規劃如果順利的話"},{"start":4280.874,"end":4292.378,"text":"或許應該今年等於是6月進來以後我們在場裏面還是要做SAT就是Site要再做一次驗證然後我們正好已經在做品類工作場所的一個審核那我們已經完成QI有機會在第三季"},{"start":4298.5,"end":4319.981,"text":"按照您這樣講的時程規劃今年也做不完啊 今年也設置不了啊你說有一些misunderstanding可是去年才問你的你跟我 你們就很坦白的很直接的告訴我們說2023年底就要引進第一座的移動式嘉青站現在問你 你跟我說因為有誤解所以要搞到今年6月那"},{"start":4323.328,"end":4349.247,"text":"我就不曉得您現在講的這些時程我聽起來今年年底要完成都拚架我們上個禮拜開過檢討會我剛講到就是說美國他要投入70億美元喔那我現在看到你們的這些你的氫能要做的事情好像也沒有特別的這個經費在裡面然後呢再生能源的部分比如說"},{"start":4350.248,"end":4374.466,"text":"中油很厲害的是探勘 對不對這個是中油的強項嘛那在你們的報告書裡面也有講到你們的油氣探勘跟開發剛剛我還特別聽到了包括您跟總經理都也特別談到你們要做所謂的碳捕捉、碳封存跟所有的這些研究那你的這一些研究的費用編列了63.37億元"},{"start":4377.228,"end":4392.156,"text":"人家是編列70億的美元你是編列63.37那依照你們這樣的保守的性格你的這個碳捕捉的研究、碳封存的研究甚至你所有的這一些包括地熱"},{"start":4393.547,"end":4415.617,"text":"的建制、研究我不知道要什麼時候才會完成。 說到底中油在政府的再生能源推動政策上面的腳步你能不能跟得上我這個pop point寫說你能不能跟得上世界的腳步我現在要問說你能不能跟得上台灣整體再生能源發展的腳步"},{"start":4416.477,"end":4425.39,"text":"我都已經不捨求你跟得上世界的腳步啦就台灣整體的能源政策來講中油你能不能跟得上啊"},{"start":4426.36,"end":4449.259,"text":"董事長跟委員報告因為政府其實付給台灣中油公司要做清冷的供應車甚至包括未來到2050的量能我們其實都依照這個政策在努力我知道你依照政策嘛但是你依照政策的速度、布局、腳步、時程都比我們大家預期的還要慢"},{"start":4450.18,"end":4473.337,"text":"所以這個是我一直說您比較保守的原因嘛你沒有能力或者是說你不敢再更大步的往前走或者是授權大家更大步更快速的往前衝嘛你告訴我說你是依照政府的政策沒有錯依照政府的政策但是你可以大步的往前走嘛你可以加緊速度嘛世界已經往前走到走到這麼前面了"},{"start":4473.997,"end":4474.277,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":4514.224,"end":4517.306,"text":"請問部長你跟那個主計長最近有機會討論過你要的1500億這次的嗎?我們其實經濟部跟主計總署都有密切在聯繫主計政府今天說"},{"start":4540.44,"end":4559.054,"text":"不像經濟部的方案所以他目前沒辦法決定阿媒體說他在躲你阿你要去要1500億他躲起來是不是不會啦不會你們兩個坐下來談過了沒有我們其實都有在做整體的溝通討論是阿所以他沒有躲你沒有啦沒有不會阿不然他講到不像經濟部的案"},{"start":4561.443,"end":4572.655,"text":"我再確認一下那個相關的同仁的聯繫的情況。 是。 是。 他說的意思就是沒看到案,所以沒辦法,我一定要罵很多人,我今天說的是說只剩下1500億啦。"},{"start":4574.48,"end":4596.811,"text":"所以說剩餘,不是說已經大家在講會有三千五百億,他說現在能用的只有1500億,那你要投1500億,他就講了兩個點,他說我落地就沒錢了,對不對,全部給你,我就沒有剩餘啦。第二個,他說他要編一百十四年明年的預算,他就有困難了。那現在怎麼辦?他現在投1500億,你全部拿走,他又有困難。"},{"start":4597.878,"end":4598.518,"text":" 那什麼?"},{"start":4598.518,"end":4599.658,"text":"電價會漲得很高嗎?"},{"start":4599.658,"end":4612.162,"text":"我們當然院裡面的怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策 那當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他對對 不然你現在很麻煩啦 第一你馬上找他這是第一行對不對?"},{"start":4612.162,"end":4616.883,"text":"是是是第一他快沒看到方案 你趕快把方案給他好不好?"},{"start":4616.883,"end":4621.004,"text":"那現在給你一個時間點 你現在公開跟他喊話啊 你沒請我用你等一下會不會漲多少?"},{"start":4621.926,"end":4644.227,"text":"沒有沒有 這個當然審計委員會去算 趕快約他趕快碰面 第二方案趕快給他好不好 是是那第二個也很重要 那現在看起來1500億 我覺得可能一千也有可能啦 如果只剩下1000億 那是不是調補整個電價調補會很大 包括民生用電也會調很多嗎"},{"start":4646.237,"end":4654.985,"text":"這個主計那個我們審議委員會這邊會都會在工作當中那這個一定會提到的照顧民生。 1500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要對不對?"},{"start":4664.613,"end":4666.514,"text":"你休息一下,我們請中油董事長你們從105年開始,這八年啊你們到海外"},{"start":4693.618,"end":4720.703,"text":"去探勘海域的探勘已經落30億了打水漂是不是?都降估了已經損失了30億是不是這樣?這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎?跟委員報告齁如果整個從探勘我們整體包括海內外整個我們根據報告其實是有獲利的是有獲利的路上有獲利嘛那為什麼海域"},{"start":4722.968,"end":4729.853,"text":"已經賠償了,已經60、30、30億了,已經損失了30億,而且今年的最新的預算書,你今年要再落腳下去喔?"},{"start":4731.769,"end":4757.416,"text":"不要講說人民納稅錢這30億丟到海裡去了你今年要再拿下去你有把握嗎這6億會不會又丟到水裡去打水漂又不見了我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利高風險那這個我們其實在看就會整體包裹來看不會只有針對某一個點來看他是虧還是淫意所以這個也謝謝委員在"},{"start":4758.496,"end":4779.973,"text":"立法院的預算給我們子彈讓我們可以去尋求機會那我想本來這裡面就是我們會根據相關的資料海外的這個遊記的這個探勘你在路上有賺到錢嘛對不對那海益為什麼損失這麼多這要好好想啊甚至在今年這個6億一定要投嗎更重要你該想想看到底有多少把握第二個你美女還要編嗎"},{"start":4781.747,"end":4785.248,"text":"你路上如果有賺錢你就都投資路上的啊,是不是這樣?"},{"start":4785.248,"end":4789.189,"text":"目前公司到處都是這樣,尤其你是用了人民納稅錢喔,好不好?"},{"start":4789.189,"end":4795.691,"text":"是,跟委員報告,事實上我們有一個評估,有五大項在看,它的整個成功率多少?"},{"start":4795.691,"end":4803.294,"text":"我現在問你,現在你們很重要的,就是說現在已經損失30億丟到海裡了,這6億到底能不能回本?"},{"start":4803.294,"end":4803.934,"text":"最重要回本吧?"},{"start":4804.773,"end":4806.475,"text":"你去海外的這個探勘這麼多,有四個國家都掛鈴欸,都共顧欸"},{"start":4821.786,"end":4839.313,"text":"印尼、巴拉圭、索馬、利蘭、墨西哥這四個國家都在測什麼東西?為什麼一直都鞏固?不是,現在還沒到生產階段,現在還在測砍齁所以測砍之後才知道...你已經...你為一百看五年就起啦,你八年還在測...啊?不是這...啊這八年是什麼?這八年為什麼都是0?"},{"start":4841.042,"end":4868.993,"text":"像那個其實在美國Lafish其實據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來因為KFish是CRC這邊我們也去跟他談過那至於Israel應該是印尼嘛是我們這幾年投入我們這幾年投入6個礦區你給我一個你叫的預算書上面明明白白寫的就是零阿都掛零阿現在是在測看階段嘛現在在測看階段嘛所以什麼時候才會回收"},{"start":4870.616,"end":4874.101,"text":"這個我們要看側看之後這一口井到底"},{"start":4876.673,"end":4905.236,"text":"已經8年了因為你這個我們再澄清一下105年開始投入因為我記得是在我接總經理之後我們投入這個案子在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大這個要注意好不好有些國家一直都鞏固了也要注意好不好那接下來問你一個是很重要國人很關心的天然氣的安全存量安全存量培洛西那時候來台灣以後"},{"start":4906.656,"end":4909.399,"text":"中國大陸今年的7天對不對?"},{"start":4909.399,"end":4914.404,"text":"我們台灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少?"},{"start":4914.404,"end":4920.229,"text":"如果兩岸兵兇戰危中國大陸現在又開始有演習的話 我們可以撐幾天?"},{"start":4920.229,"end":4921.971,"text":"現在我們依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天"},{"start":4927.176,"end":4928.658,"text":"你希望中國大陸的經驗都不要超過你的8天喔?"},{"start":4941.281,"end":4944.043,"text":"臺灣培洛西他就是7天對不對?"},{"start":4944.043,"end":4956.392,"text":"這邊現在大家很多人都認為說現在兩岸是緊繃的 二一螺旋一直在向上旋轉的時候 最危險的時候最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會嘛 11號已經開完大會對不對?"},{"start":4956.392,"end":4957.472,"text":"最敏感的時間就是到520嘛"},{"start":4959.014,"end":4981.056,"text":"520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天你安全存量只有8天怎麼辦?到時候台灣不就斷氣了嗎?跟委員報告事實上我們跟台電有一個機制電跟氣有一個機制在協調我們會把存量存到最高所以我們希望除了除草容積天數之外事業安全存在天數也能夠拉高所以我們不斷在建除草那如果真的有一些狀況的時候"},{"start":4982.457,"end":5003.462,"text":"臺電跟中油其實是國安問題嘛我們會展開雙方的一個機制那是不是要調整天然氣的用量調整其他能源配備的用量對啦當然你沒有在努力我現在說你跟全國的民眾講如果出現中國大陸今年或者有比較兵凶戰危的事情我們到底可以撐幾天天然氣沒有斷氣你對著全民講"},{"start":5004.913,"end":5030.588,"text":"對著全民講你可以撐幾天不會斷氣我跟委員報告喔事實上可以撐幾天要depend一些case你的假設前提你一定會盡最大努力嘛對不對盡最大努力最大努力可以撐幾天所以如果我們看到新聞報導或者是大陸開始有動作我們知道幾天內我們是安全的啊我想這個齁其實中油的重責大任也是經濟部的重責大任對不對是 也是國安單位的重責大任啊他們叫你要幾天你目前是可以當八天對不對"},{"start":5033.403,"end":5040.368,"text":"最久可以動幾天?事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題我剛剛特別報告我跟台電之間"},{"start":5041.636,"end":5044.397,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":5066.062,"end":5091.427,"text":"我們當然是以守住民生為主民生大概佔7%我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力讓他能夠撐得最久董事長我知道你很努力我是說你對全民對全台灣的民眾講清楚如果發生兵凶戰危你非常努力的狀況之下我們天然氣不會斷氣然後我們是安全的存量是安全的用電是安全的規管明確一個答案就好了"},{"start":5092.692,"end":5093.633,"text":"有14天嗎?"},{"start":5093.633,"end":5094.273,"text":"會不會8天到14天?"},{"start":5094.273,"end":5107.879,"text":"不止。 不止啦。 不止。 有詳細的我們再跟委員中報告。 張委員,本席尊重您的質詢,但是我想您的問題是兩岸冰凶站尾的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠?"},{"start":5108.739,"end":5109.2,"text":"主席,不好意思"},{"start":5131.163,"end":5147.3,"text":"我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title然後來質問中油董事長天然氣的儲存量在兵兇戰委的時候夠不夠他現在回答你10天你現在是要告訴中國說台灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天"},{"start":5148.181,"end":5153.588,"text":"主席,你應該傾覆董事長的智慧了,他不會講到一個八天,他一定講到一個彈性,這是大家要重視的安全,不是洩漏國家機密,而且這是什麼?"},{"start":5164.002,"end":5177.137,"text":"依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲存容量的規定。這是一個公開的事情不是嗎?我是說你的努力之下你能夠有一個多大的彈性。 董事長您在私下跟張委員做報告好不好?"},{"start":5177.137,"end":5177.618,"text":"主席你剛剛講那個很嚴重喔。"},{"start":5180.521,"end":5184.025,"text":"對,我講這個很嚴重所以你自己也知道這個很嚴重你不應該在這裡問這樣的一個問題您問的這個問題跟那一天您問的這個問題跟那一天大鴻主委被記者問到說他什麼他要去"},{"start":5195.498,"end":5196.759,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5224.583,"end":5253.622,"text":"鄭天才委員嚴重的抗議主席這樣的那個要不要回答是董事長要不要回答主席有才事權這是主席的職權請尊重主席好不好"},{"start":5257.503,"end":5258.344,"text":"那您現在不質詢了嗎?"},{"start":5258.344,"end":5270.932,"text":"我當然要質詢啊。 好啊,那就請... 要不要回答是董事長去決定的,不是你去決定的。 我沒有不讓他回答,我只是讓董事長私下來跟張委員報告。"},{"start":5273.222,"end":5295.352,"text":"這關乎國家安全我更在乎的是國家安全好嗎沒有影響到任何人的質詢權剛剛的時間是張委員的質詢時間已經截止了你可以提醒他時間到了而不是這樣子主席可以做才是的這是主席的職權好請那個部長來請王部長"},{"start":5308.595,"end":5324.729,"text":"部長好,現在是看守內閣應暫停不利於人民的政策而就經濟部所主管的來講就是不應該調漲電價雖然一直講說事業作為部長"},{"start":5335.834,"end":5358.013,"text":"對於在看守內閣的期間真的是不應該調漲電價這個就暫停留給新的內閣也許你細任也許你高深就留給新的內閣可以嗎?"},{"start":5359.685,"end":5376.177,"text":"我想第一個就整個電價的審議本來就有機制那第二個事實上現在還是連續執政所以我想這個政策上應該要去做要去考慮的事情還是要去認真來執行是好當然這個看守內閣到底要怎麼做"},{"start":5384.778,"end":5406.611,"text":"法律目前法律比較明確的就是這個公務人員任用法8、26條之一這裡面各機關首長以下列期間不得任用或簽調人員憲法第6款憲法後法規未定有任期之中央各級機關政務首長以總統競選連任未當選"},{"start":5411.482,"end":5436.427,"text":"或未在競選連任時至次借該項選舉當選的名單公告之次日起至當選人先是就之職這個是比較明確的法律就是對於這個公務人員的一個任用那其他的其實就是過去的政策過去的"},{"start":5438.571,"end":5461.973,"text":"過去的慣例去推動這個部分請部長來做參考就我們行政院陳建仁院長就特別提到雖然是號稱看守內閣但會繼續提出扶國立民的方案所以有利人民大家不會"},{"start":5463.823,"end":5492.78,"text":"太在意而且應該是要去推動但是不利於人民的就應該交移給這個新的內閣新的內閣所以這個部分這個還是要請部長能夠三思這個過去也不是沒有過過去也不是沒有過何況二屋戰爭所帶來的影響也不是今年"},{"start":5495.049,"end":5513.56,"text":"去年就產生了很大的影響但是還是做了暫停的一個處理我想臺電的穩健經營對整個臺灣的供電是非常重要當然當然我們都知道這個部長你請回座請董事長來董事長好委員好"},{"start":5524.731,"end":5545.508,"text":"這個民生、食衣住行尤其是水電、糧食、水電、石油、天然氣是民生最重要的這個部分所以你這個中油公司這裡面你的報告裡面提到這個不及再生能源"},{"start":5546.94,"end":5574.992,"text":"那花蓮台東地熱區這個部分請這個時間的關係就請董事長回去再提供這個目前的一個花東地區地熱能的辦理情形是好這裡面這個要謝謝忠友雖然有俄烏戰爭的影響但是對於"},{"start":5577.663,"end":5585.806,"text":"為了配合穩定物價政策,售價未配合油電、油氣價公式足以調整。"},{"start":5598.091,"end":5623.962,"text":"這個就是為了民生所以要請中油繼續的不要寫台電繼續的來去穩定相關的這些物價的政策所以這個部分要請你繼續協助好,我要接下來談的是原住民的就業的問題"},{"start":5624.929,"end":5649.83,"text":"原住民就業的問題看起來是跟你沒有關係事實上是有很大的這個你只要願意做就可以去做蔡總統在2015年8月1號提出的原住民族就業政策保障上望的新的工作機會開創永續的原住民族經濟發展"},{"start":5651.633,"end":5673.88,"text":"他說保障上望新的工作就政府要負擔保障原住民就業的責任這個是一個蔡總統在2015年8月1號所提出來的所以這個部分我們看中油在112年"},{"start":5676.576,"end":5697.203,"text":"這個招考一般類有19個類別招考了828人請問一下這個董事長你有沒有印象有沒有特別針對原住民的招考的相關的規定"},{"start":5699.379,"end":5717.965,"text":"這個委員這個我再把資料再跟委員做說明但是依我了解政府公司不只是遵循法規我們其實包括在原住民的任用還有包括在一些特定人士的任用我們絕對都比法規要求的還要高那詳細資料我來了解一下再跟委員報告好這個"},{"start":5722.953,"end":5749.585,"text":"就請提供105年到現在是歷年原住民經用的人數這個中油那113年的招考你們也要即將辦理對不對是我建議這個董事長這個能夠參考台電台電他就有特別"},{"start":5751.018,"end":5751.438,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":5779.878,"end":5780.322,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":5795.302,"end":5819.949,"text":"好主席美麗的主席本席要發言以前因為我們兩位都是最美麗的主席因為經濟委員會呢都是非常的和諧而且大家都很好都為國家所以我也看到那個電視啊我也希望我們經濟委員會還是維持原來的和諧為國家做事"},{"start":5822.563,"end":5823.403,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":5823.403,"end":5846.977,"text":"謝謝 來請我們的部長來 部長你這個 等等等等等這個楊委員您說明清楚吧你剛剛這樣講好像我沒有在為國家做事我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事但是整個過程我們因為我們都是召委經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧而且非常的尊重所有的委員"},{"start":5847.997,"end":5875.498,"text":"包括我在主席的時候我相信你在主持的時候也是如此所以張恩看到那個畫面讓我也很下渴因為在經濟委員會怎麼會有如此主席本席發言請王部長我還是要強調一下因為剛剛張其凱委員的質詢時間已經到而且我認為他的質詢的問題內容其實有涉及國家安全所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告"},{"start":5876.198,"end":5883.665,"text":"國家安全就不能私下了,怎麼可以私下國家安全就是可講跟不講這個天然氣保存本來就是最高可以放過天然氣保存的是可以問但是你的前提是在打仗的情況之下我認為這個涉及國家安全這個是自己中油也公佈阿好了現在"},{"start":5902.834,"end":5916.242,"text":"這沒有什麼國安問題啦我希望他私下尊重每一位發言的委員請尊重每一位發言的委員現在是本席質詢請主席採視"},{"start":5918.074,"end":5939.004,"text":"我好我一分鐘齁你怎麼可以一分鐘現在是我質詢你已經叫我30秒一樣啊國外事件就沒有私底下的問題那也請您互相尊重啊因為我是主持人對阿所以請你才是你已經叫我上來阿不然我要再下去囉我是會議的主席所以你也請您尊重我的主持方式當然阿所以你已經叫我你已經請我上來啦我也給你鞠躬啦我們請王部長好謝謝"},{"start":5949.378,"end":5972.398,"text":"主席北京也再請李董事長一起我們來討論來請李董事長謝謝部長我想邀請你跟李董事長一起我們就實質來討論因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口所以我們大家都關心國安的焦點之一但是經過我們的統計我"},{"start":5974.62,"end":5987.178,"text":"我們統計出台灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%但是能夠自主運輸的量大概就只有10%那剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購那國外的採購像這個"},{"start":5990.843,"end":5991.584,"text":"是不是啊部長?"},{"start":6018.114,"end":6018.934,"text":"中油目前我們是以賣方包運DS的方式去採購天然氣"},{"start":6046.008,"end":6071.516,"text":"除了有這樣的問題之外在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出我們也知道目前為止中油的這個樣態也必須要全力的支持中油因為沒油這就車也不走什麼都氣也產生不出來什麼都會有問題所以在這樣的情況之下本是要請教"},{"start":6072.936,"end":6096.968,"text":"本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定那國企國運我們必須要去實施那部長你當時我也很歡喜很高興你承諾出朝這個方向去努力所以本席首先要請問的是我們的國企國運的作業進程現在如何請說明"},{"start":6099.133,"end":6115.377,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上中油公司跟海運還有海營總署,就是航商所組成的海營總署,討論過很多很多的這個方案那當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承認這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見持續在收斂之中,我們最近會再開一次會議"},{"start":6122.099,"end":6126.322,"text":"但是我們不怕苦所以的關鍵哪裡可以解套好好去想辦法因為為了國內的能源穩定這一個國氣、國運是佔了很重要的角色不過跟我們報告"},{"start":6152.523,"end":6154.825,"text":"國際國運哪一種比較好?"},{"start":6154.825,"end":6173.136,"text":"FOV還是DES那一種比較好?其實決定了很多條件啊齁好你現在說到這裡李董你現在對當然所以你的DES方式現在是賣方來包運那你是不是有可能去考慮買方來包運的方式呢?我們可以節省成本啊"},{"start":6173.776,"end":6177.2,"text":"事實上不一定節省成本所以這個不一定要釐清的像我們像CES的話前年二五戰爭之後這個運費暴漲兵險暴漲都是賣方吸收所以董事長跟部長在這邊也就是"},{"start":6190.234,"end":6219.254,"text":"我們討論到現在就是說為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全因為有時候那邊暴漲有時候那邊暴跌所以我們要運用哪一種方式李董事長剛才回答的有一句本席蠻贊同就是到底我們用哪個方式可以讓我們節省而且最重要是穩定我們的能源這是最重要的 是是各位報告我們其實努力的方向就是說多元分散然後穩定供應然後加上價格具有競爭性"},{"start":6220.174,"end":6245.971,"text":"當然啊!當然啊!但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是馬拉斯而且很緊張啊!所以我們會想盡一切辦法,什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定啊!對不對?那你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案,朝這個方向趕快再去努力好不好?我們一直努力一直努力齁!那接下來,你請回座接下來本席要請教齁,本席要請教部長,我還是跟你討論一下電的問題媒體說22號就要宣布嗎?"},{"start":6252.435,"end":6263.637,"text":"會嗎?22號要宣布漲或不漲,漲要漲多少?是不是22號?具體的時程我沒有掌握到。你看到媒體報導的22號嗎?我還沒有掌握到,是。那我告訴你,今天的媒體報導說22號可能會宣布,那今天是幾號了?10幾號?今天14。14號距離22剩下一個禮拜。"},{"start":6274.673,"end":6293.91,"text":"因為當時告訴我們審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來會開那所以這個22號不是不可能那所以請教部長主計總書說如果把1500億叫去年度的來撥補給台電那我們國家沒有盈餘他講的這個數字對嗎一個國家撥補1500億就沒有盈餘那我們台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":6298.454,"end":6326.724,"text":"不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛那所以請教請教部長昨天你也回答本席我也給你鼓勵給你加油我說不然我我也願意親自到行政院去拜託第一個方案就是說行政院支援我們你也是列為第一個方案嘛那你現在談論的他要支援我們多少要撥補給台電多少目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案還沒有定案那你有跟行政院長講過了嗎"},{"start":6328.444,"end":6333.707,"text":"我們跟院裡面都有密切在聯繫有嗎?有跟行政院長陳院長講過了嗎?有沒有?你跟陳院長講過了嗎?因為建在學校院長知道那他支不支持你這個1500億撥補回來給台電呢?院長支持要來撥補台電那相關的經費的部分就是要多少?"},{"start":6356.537,"end":6376.393,"text":"經費的部分就是要精算請教部長你給他報告多少他給多少是他的事你給他報告多少我想我們有提出來你提出多少因為這個還是要你提出兩千億嗎這個還是要以院裡面最後的決定當然那是院的決定就像你報給審議委員會那審議委員會去做決定那我請問你給院長報告多少兩千億嗎"},{"start":6382.078,"end":6382.958,"text":"1500億有1500億嗎?有報告方案是不是1500億?"},{"start":6404.959,"end":6410.863,"text":"我們支持一定要支持因為主席總書會講出這個數字應該我預估應該是部長你人心人數啊330度以下的不能講"},{"start":6418.203,"end":6419.184,"text":"總計總書如果真的我希望他是誤說啦"},{"start":6442.677,"end":6468.123,"text":"如果一個國家1500億鋪給我們台灣鋪給我們台電就沒有營餘這樣子蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓不對的所以站在你部長的立場他會講出這個數字應該是你有講1500億嘛對不對謝謝委員支持你明明笑我就知道你應該是如此我一定支持所以你一定要幫我們爭取到所以剛剛我所說的"},{"start":6469.338,"end":6470.539,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請張家俊委員發言"},{"start":6505.038,"end":6521.051,"text":"主席我首先也想要表達一下雖然我剛剛是錯過了但是我想我們大家都將心比心希望大家都能夠互相維持一下這個委員的質詢的權益那我是接下來請那個王部長來請王部長部長我想要再請問您一次我們"},{"start":6529.11,"end":6534.462,"text":"台電這一次預計要漲電價到底是什麼理由?"},{"start":6536.313,"end":6545.958,"text":"台電確實因為之前吸收了非常多的成本所以虧損的情形讓他的財務比較嚴峻難道不是因為能源價格飆高才要漲電價嗎?就是因為國際的燃料成本確實是漲得非常多所以讓台電吸收了非常多成本113年度台電"},{"start":6559.705,"end":6582.728,"text":"的這個幾種燃料費用和能燃料燃油燃氣等等占比最高的是什麼113年的部分應該是燃氣的部分天然氣沒錯就是佔了61%那既然佔了61%您知道台電的天然氣是跟誰買的嗎"},{"start":6584.598,"end":6598.687,"text":"臺電跟中油買的是的就是跟中油買的中油擁有國內天然氣市場的專賣權所以請教部長臺電向中油買天然氣的價格是多少這個中油是會按照他的相關的情形跟國際的狀況去做變動"},{"start":6609.596,"end":6615.859,"text":"15.75塊每立方公尺15.75塊每立方公尺應該可以看得到你仔細看一看電業用戶15.75塊這一個牌價這就是說賣給台電是最貴的甚至比氣電共生系統都高了將近兩倍的價格為什麼"},{"start":6640.276,"end":6648.921,"text":"目前的這個中油它賣的用戶有台電、有工業、有民生那我們確實... 你自己看一看比工業用戶大大多了將近兩倍的價格所以賣給台電是最貴的然後所以這等於是說左手賣右手都是你經濟部所屬的公司然後現在台電說虧損了"},{"start":6666.636,"end":6671.15,"text":"然後要全民漲電價 這不是都是讓全民買單嗎?"},{"start":6673.803,"end":6688.59,"text":"就相關的這個天然氣的部分我們確實在民生跟工業的部分因為穩定物價的關係確實目前都還沒有調整到原來的水準我不能理解的是說怎麼會我們中油賣給台電這麼貴然後賣給一般的用戶便宜這麼多"},{"start":6700.815,"end":6713.148,"text":"等於是臺電跟中油是經濟部國內能源的左右手左手賣給右手特別貴的價錢然後右手哭哭說我受不了了我要漲電價然後要拉高這個價格要向人民卡油"},{"start":6719.534,"end":6719.574,"text":"這樣說得過去嗎?"},{"start":6719.574,"end":6720.855,"text":"這不就是台電跟中油聯合向人民卡油讓人民買單嗎?應該不能這樣講齁因為中油賣給台電的部分在這個過往他其實國際非常貴的時候"},{"start":6735.126,"end":6757.591,"text":"他也沒有反映充足的成本。第二個在民生的部分鄉委員也一直提到這箱包括桶裝的瓦斯不要炸所以事實上現在賣給民生的確實遠低於成本沒有錯所以我現在想要提的就是說所以經濟部除了向行政院爭取1500億的補貼之外應該也要搭配調降中油賣給"},{"start":6765.553,"end":6771.219,"text":"臺電的天然氣的價格您同意嗎這個部分都有其實都有緩步的在調降我是不是也要請那個董事長李董是不是也能夠隨著現在國際的天然氣價格調降你們賣給臺電的價格也能夠調降呢"},{"start":6785.095,"end":6792.501,"text":"根委員報告事實上從去年的3月開始我們對台電的這個天然氣的價格已經調降了6次最高其實是在20塊3毛6現在已經逐步降到15塊我講的是未含稅那根委員報告這裡面我們已經將近3年民生公用這邊沒有調整從110年的6月開始所以這部分我們就是為了穩定物價所以民生公用我們就維持8塊3毛5"},{"start":6811.837,"end":6815.841,"text":"本席拜託李董我知道您是從基層做起這一點希望你務必用專業一定要能夠調降這個價格讓台電能夠止損希望他可以不要再繼續虧損能夠"},{"start":6830.296,"end":6857.352,"text":"等於是不要再繼續像明年假設明年我們還要再補貼它真的我很難想像說如果假設明年還要再漲電價我們國家真的是吃不消那部長我在這裡還是要再一次的訴求希望說除了統裝瓦斯不要漲之外用電這個330度以下的弱勢用戶不要調漲包括農漁牧用電不要調漲這一點部長是不是可以拜託您"},{"start":6859.354,"end":6874.587,"text":"謝謝委員那再再加聲因為對很多的這個參數跟因素我們都會很仔細的來考量是特別再一次的呼籲特別再一次的拜託那目前我也想要趁這個機會因為現在綠能其實有很多很多的弊案也好或者是人民的疑惑也好就是在我們雲林縣"},{"start":6884.755,"end":6900.627,"text":"現在有很多的土地都被化為低地利而且是沒有跟地方溝通之下就被化為低地利很多的土地明明都還在耕作就被化為低地利其實這一點"},{"start":6902.128,"end":6913.099,"text":"引起地方很多的反彈甚至喔像以口湖鄉為例啊口湖鄉一個鄉就被劃了2000多公頃他整個鄉等於是三分之一都被劃為滴滴利等於不鼓勵他生產不鼓勵他養殖整個鄉是為之沸騰所以部長你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":6925.71,"end":6932.236,"text":"事實上農委會在認定它是滴滴都其實是非常謹慎那另外一個就是說假設農民還有在農作的部分那這個在個案審查的時候能不能來利用做這個相關的能源其實都會參考它現在的實際的使用的狀況並不是說講了就一定都會去把它變更成農地"},{"start":6949.389,"end":6973.75,"text":"所以我現在想要提醒經濟部的是在規劃的過程必須考慮到這些人的心聲不要讓農民成為光電產業下的犧牲者不會不會如果他還在農作的部分那這個我們相關的部會在審的時候一定都會考慮好特別拜託謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言"},{"start":6983.235,"end":6988.979,"text":"主席好,我想先請教一下那個台電董事長,中油董事長抱歉,中油董事長"},{"start":6995.522,"end":7019.532,"text":"董事長好 委員好我先repeat一下剛剛我們張祺凱委員他所提出來的問題那我想說因為依據天然氣失業法的時候這個本來就有很具體的一個規定經濟部他也在100年就已經公告了就是依據天然氣生產或進口失業自備儲槽容量這個規定你應該很清楚嘛 對不對"},{"start":7020.992,"end":7033.783,"text":"因為兩岸兵兇戰危目前台灣天然氣的儲量夠嗎?這是我完全repeat剛剛張其海委員的問題夠沒有問題我們大概可以維持幾天的儲量"},{"start":7035.131,"end":7061.786,"text":"我想我們目前我們的這個隆基天數是規定是11天那我們事實上有16、7天那事業安全存量天數規定是8天我們有11天所以它規定是8天我們有11天對對對然後隆基天數其實我們達到16天然後隆基天數可以到16天對不對OK那聽起來其實已經比這個相關規定"},{"start":7063.527,"end":7081.257,"text":"有更好的一個儲存儲槽容量對不對?不過我這邊我也提供了一個義大利的數字給你看從2019年義大利他就很具體提出來他們的儲備容量是60天那60天當中而且他們是以高峰值的50%去計算"},{"start":7083.678,"end":7109.374,"text":"那我們你剛剛預計這個8天或者是16天這個部分他是用什麼樣的方式計算是整天的一個使用量去算還是用什麼樣的數字去算我跟委員報告龍基存量天數現在歸定11天事實上我們來到差不多18、9天將近20天那這個怎麼算呢我目前所有的中油公司的天然氣的儲槽比如說我在永安有6座有69萬公屏"},{"start":7110.194,"end":7126.106,"text":"我在台中有6座有96萬公秉未來在三屆會蓋兩座16萬公秉所以說越來越高啦 對不對所以現在剛剛你剛剛找到最高的數字從規定的8天、11天、16天到現在是20天嘛是不是那是農機除草農機嘛將近20天"},{"start":7128.228,"end":7154.082,"text":"是,將近20天嘛,OK好那這個部分我想是所有國人都關心的問題尤其是在520之前其實坦白說兩岸的局勢相對緊張那麼大家都擔心兵凶戰危然後也擔心整個被封鎖之後影響到整個台灣能源的供應所以這個部分我就先提出來那我接下來我繼續因為你很具體的回答了我就開始去問接下來的部分"},{"start":7154.702,"end":7161.413,"text":"那那個我們看到整個我們的預算書還有之前的結算書當中的時候我們看到就是在"},{"start":7164.059,"end":7178.832,"text":"今年預計長期借款會暴增500億然後整個利息的支出大概會增加100多億這兩個數字都沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":7178.832,"end":7188.139,"text":"是的我想問一下為什麼要長期借款要增加然後增加這麼多的部分主要是為什麼?"},{"start":7189.412,"end":7210.458,"text":"跟委員報告事實上這幾年來從110年111、112這幾年政府公司在配合穩定物價政策我們光政策吸收天然氣就超過4千億油品也超過1千多億 那你說你長期借款這個部分是為了要去買天然氣去貸款的錢嗎?之前的部分就已經有了你這邊的時候"},{"start":7211.798,"end":7227.856,"text":"我看到你這邊的時候你長期借款這個部分很多時候是要配合國家政策去做投資嘛 對不對那我想特別問一下這麼多的投資的項目當中你為什麼會特別投入離岸風電海聖風場"},{"start":7229.818,"end":7254.193,"text":"有沒有特別的原因?我想這是中油公司多元能源布局的一部分,我們包括太陽光電在做除了海盛工廠,我們還投了哪些地方?我們光電就是,離亞風電就這一家就只有這一家對不對?那因為這邊的時候,就是中油投了15%那因為風場很多,我不曉得為什麼特別投到海盛風場是不是因為這個風場其實雲豹也有投資?"},{"start":7257.336,"end":7272.796,"text":"事實上我們公司要投資都有一個從那個總工這個系統再到整個企業的系統再到總的專業會議再到公司的討論之後再到本辦公室來具體說明一下因為風場其實很多嘛那為什麼特別投資這個風場"},{"start":7275.299,"end":7292.522,"text":"把那個整個評估的過程跟細節讓我們本席瞭解一下那海生風場是不是比其他風場都來得好這我們特別的關注然後另外我這邊也特別講一下我看到你們這邊所有的結算書跟預算書112年的累計虧損是318億對不對 這數字不錯對不對那我們預計113年的累計虧損會到249億對不對"},{"start":7302.004,"end":7316.949,"text":"這是當時被預算的一個預估那這個數字會隨著油氣價格的變動而做調整所以說預計當中在今年當中的時候我們累計我們的整個營業的部分會變成有69億所以累計虧損才會減少是這個狀態"},{"start":7321.091,"end":7329.98,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上我們是到112年年底累積虧損318億但是這兩個月我們稅前虧了102億,稅後虧了84億所以我們累積虧損已經來到400億而已但是我們認為下半年,就是說第二季開始下半年應該會有一些好轉所以我們的累積虧損會減少,到時候我的淨值會再增加"},{"start":7343.693,"end":7347.316,"text":"3月11日及14日三天一次會議3月11日及14日三天一次會議3月11日及14日三天一次會議"},{"start":7373.237,"end":7388.131,"text":"那是預算書的部分那事實上我們在這個過程中其實都還有一些譬如說投資性不動產的這個用形式去做評估投資不動產或者是儲分不動產類似嗎?不是不是它的價值會有一些變化"},{"start":7391.514,"end":7402.623,"text":"是價值變化只是帳上的變化並不是真正的一個收入的來源是所以我們還是希望說剛剛在提到的我們的負債那麼多我今年要負的這個複習負債達到147億來那因為這邊因為時間的關係我就很快的講一個點"},{"start":7408.928,"end":7421.265,"text":"因為剛剛那36億當中我在想說你錢從哪裡來那我們也希望你能夠承諾就是在今年的時候能夠動漲民生的天然氣跟瓦斯的一個價格這有沒有辦法承諾"},{"start":7421.914,"end":7448.928,"text":"這個是我們配合政府的政策那最後這邊預算中心這邊有特別提到一個部分就是我們的低度使用還有閒置土地那每年要支出3493萬的一個的那個地價稅的部分那裡面大概有9筆有9筆被預算中心特別列出來的情況那我們要怎麼樣去活化這些的使用我們有沒有具體的做法"},{"start":7449.768,"end":7465.518,"text":"事實上我們有一個專門的部門叫做資產處我們在做我們一些目前一些土地的一個規劃一些活化都在進行這裡面有進行我看到你們的數字當中我先特別針對新竹市這邊有兩筆土地"},{"start":7468.4,"end":7493.462,"text":"這個是它附近的土都長滿了那個植物了都沒有妥善去利用那我發現你們這兩個資料當中的時候公告限值它就2.79億可是你們預計的期望預期效益只有2.7億還不如它的公告限值那如果說你們預期效益這麼低的時候有沒有辦法讓這塊土地直接給新竹市政府來使用"},{"start":7494.377,"end":7494.697,"text":"謝謝珍珍前委員接下來我們請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":7526.32,"end":7531.964,"text":"主席好現在有請我們經濟部長王部長要問好主席氣溫才不會那麼嚴峻部長好"},{"start":7543.613,"end":7566.394,"text":"部長我在總執行在我們委員會的執行都有談到大矽谷計畫我們賴清德總統所提出來的就是陶子子苗矽谷計畫西部科技走廊那這裡面我今天為什麼在這個場合要談我先給你瞭解苗栗的重要"},{"start":7567.795,"end":7588.922,"text":"跟他為了台灣經濟發展所付出的貢獻我們通宵火力發電廠在苗栗大概現在都是供用給北部的電現在我們整個北部的瓦斯也在我們通宵是一個轉失中心所以通宵可憐在哪裡都被你經濟部"},{"start":7590.822,"end":7612.476,"text":"那台電公司的高特壓電把整個通宵都包圍起來,那感覺蜘蛛網在上面,感覺很壞,好像被蜘蛛網壓制一樣。再來一個可能,我們通宵所有地下的管路都是你們中油的管路這樣幫我們買來買去,那裡面的管路非常非常的多。"},{"start":7617.401,"end":7633.232,"text":"但是我苗栗很善良尤其中油公司臺電公司還有一個回饋專案中油公司都在那個地方沒有回饋讓我每天要來處理你們中油的事情都要我吃麵來解決因為中油41"},{"start":7637.816,"end":7653.232,"text":"經濟委員會監督的包括你們以後的溝通協調都要好還有我太了解你們了都聽你們講假話像你們要捕捉碳的那種要存放的時候你市院廠長也沒有跟先生"},{"start":7654.033,"end":7657.235,"text":"中縣長跟縣長講一下。 中縣長講說你實在太窮人了。 吃命啊!"},{"start":7657.235,"end":7658.416,"text":"給修理一下!"},{"start":7658.416,"end":7666.321,"text":"不然他們都不懂得大聲喊。 來跟政府來拜一下嘛。 還有你們最近公安發出事情我去了解了一下。 不是公安事件是人為事。 但是那個聲音太大了。 大家以為中共的飛彈打進來了。 很緊張啊。 你知道這個情形嗎?"},{"start":7666.321,"end":7666.381,"text":"有有有。"},{"start":7683.953,"end":7709.966,"text":"好,那我希望你中油討論一個端青木林企劃像台電一樣好不好是,我覺得這個中油要去致歉一下是中油你當部長你沒有答應中油哪裡敢答應有有應該要去致歉是是你要講支持還是贊成你這樣講的模擬兩口實在我不敢沒有沒有支持這個支持好那剛剛張委員在問到"},{"start":7712.182,"end":7732.427,"text":"其實全國都很怕戰爭那戰爭發生我們也要面對但是大家都在想以前的報告裡面天然氣說維持大概8到9天那現在我看你們的報告裡面你在天然氣穩定天然氣供應有8項計畫"},{"start":7735.188,"end":7747.827,"text":"這個八項計畫讓我們了解你蓋了這麼多的屬於穩定天然氣供應的一個方式裡面到底有沒有增加天然氣對台灣的存量"},{"start":7749.406,"end":7767.014,"text":"存量當然要去增加 包括三街會去增加 那個台中港也會增加出廠以及廣州港也要增加 所以啊這種是讓國民安心的一個問題 你也不知道題目做的那麼大是國安計畫 我說這現在很簡單的"},{"start":7769.104,"end":7784.322,"text":"我電腦那個監控啊齁衛星幫你監控你多少船進來我都一千二十嘛那麽會安捏也麽會安捏所以這個沒有好隱瞞的如果確實有增進投資那麽大"},{"start":7785.043,"end":7802.127,"text":"你就跟我 我們已經在改進 我們在進行你們這樣跟不跟我說 還有這樣的問題 我覺得讓我們民眾的懷疑心會越來越大好啦 你講委員支持我都支持但是你要實際的詳細跟我講不要躲躲閃閃的讓我們不放心 不安心啦晚上不能好好睡覺好不好 再來"},{"start":7814.198,"end":7840.593,"text":"我替中油覺得委屈臺電跟中油都是非常好的公司尤其人才激起以前都是經營分子才進去沒有去留學留在這邊打拼了我覺得部長你對臺電比較好你們有一個次長當董事長這邊沒有次長當董事長你曉得他這四年虧損多少中油我賺給你聽"},{"start":7842.677,"end":7847.558,"text":"如果到7年度一共虧損了2505億台電6000億他這2550億那個董事長你們資本額多少?你的虧損超過你資本額了啊"},{"start":7866.917,"end":7872.17,"text":"所以你的委屈我跟你講剛剛政府委員說你的利息那麼高你真的高"},{"start":7873.188,"end":7900.256,"text":"但是你比較乖你怎麼比較實在因為要有一個中油的當處長才來你才能平衡因為你無擔保債你今年打算花錢到3000億你不敢要國庫補貼也不敢講虧10年多啊你就已經虧到一個資本額了啊那個公司也厲害銀行敢借錢給你可見你經營得不錯人家敢借錢"},{"start":7901.741,"end":7905.99,"text":"當然是防止物價的波動但是啊,保證啊"},{"start":7907.281,"end":7936.041,"text":"他真的很老實啊很忠厚、很實在、很努力、很經營的人你這樣不照顧,你自己照顧台電因為他有將近3000億的,你也給他貶一下好不好是,謝謝委員齁那台電、中油都是我們經濟部最重要的兩家國營事業我們當然都要去照顧沒有照顧,看起來你愛台電不愛中油沒有沒有沒有這個都一定要照顧台電有Power,中油是只有加油啊"},{"start":7937.691,"end":7966.326,"text":"對不對沒有中油好最後問你一個問題你們報章雜誌在講你希望中油的時候賣給台電我不曉得預防你要減少一元一塊錢等於中油購買你台電購買中油價格大概你每年營業的收入會省吃到"},{"start":7968.397,"end":7973.578,"text":"中油我們就是知道中油也是有吸收非常多的成本所以中油賣給台電的價格已經比他的這個成本價要高一點"},{"start":7996.167,"end":7997.728,"text":"我是入賤不平啊!"},{"start":7997.728,"end":8020.118,"text":"但是因為這個是看國際的這個天然氣的有沒有降低我每次聽你說國際的天然氣啦有說要是命啊但是不能求不中油這樣啦 不會不會 因為靠照台電啦好不好 謝謝委員支持 是不是我支持 你要支持才重要 我只是講的有點不一定聽啊我們支持中油 中油台電都非常重要 都一樣重要 是"},{"start":8024.102,"end":8035.68,"text":"謝謝陳昌明委員接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員發言待會兒邱志偉委員發言結束之後我們休息5分鐘好謝謝趙偉請王部長跟李董事長來請部長跟李董事長"},{"start":8039.284,"end":8066.986,"text":"部長臺電要更有Power中油也一定要加油這兩個都是國家重要的產業經濟部也會全力的支持確實他們現在所經營上遇到很多困境跟國際燃料價格有很大的影響所以我想政府也一定要全力支持因為這都是國家重要的一個產業那我先來問一下其實臺電的部分這個大概在月底前會做出一個結論就是說到底長不長條長多少會做出一個結論是吧"},{"start":8070.226,"end":8089.239,"text":"會 是那現在在努力在爭取的因為看部長也提到其實漲多少其實跟包括它的整個跟行政院的這個補貼也會有相關嗎如果行政院補貼多一點當然我們漲的就可以稍微多甚至可以稍微控制的多一點減少對物價的一個影響是這樣嗎"},{"start":8090.78,"end":8118.357,"text":"會互相有影響對那我問一下其實去年我們的這個稅收超過預算數3860億這個我認為如果拿不要說拿1500億我認為拿2000億出來的話來支持國家的中小產業讓整個台電的因為燃料的部分所造成虧損讓台電可以永續的發展同時間也讓物價減少它的影響波動我認為這個其實是值得有必要的部長認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":8119.465,"end":8143.836,"text":"謝謝委員支持,那我們就是確實優先來爭取撥補的部分因為我認為主計總署這個主委長他的擔憂啦當然那個但是這個都是去年就有一些超過預算數的增加了嘛那你不用去為為明年的今年預算本來就照今年來編列嘛明年所以我認為有這樣那過去來我們都還有因為這樣而可以發現金甚至可以"},{"start":8144.637,"end":8148.401,"text":"我認為在控制物價跟整個維持台電的穩健經營上我認為行政院做這樣的一個支持其實是合理的部長會全力來爭取嗎?"},{"start":8160.313,"end":8179.126,"text":"是,謝謝委員支持,那我們確實目前都在跟行政院密集溝通當中我希望不只1500億甚至2000億,我都希望如果有機會來爭取到這樣來支持這個不是只有經濟部的事,這是全台灣的事啦,也是行政院的大事情那我也希望部長池立跟院長來大力來爭取啦,好嗎?"},{"start":8179.126,"end":8179.146,"text":"是"},{"start":8180.927,"end":8196.233,"text":"另外當然就是所以這個會因為剛剛提到行政的撥補一定要先出來補助出來才有後面的電價那一塊那這個一個禮拜內會做出決定嗎確實我們有時間的壓力那我們也有跟院裡面反映"},{"start":8196.513,"end":8219.462,"text":"因為審議委員會要開嘛,審議委員會要開的時候你要看行政到底有撥補多少進來會影響到如果缺口還是那麼大那當然電價調的比例就會高一點那如果進來的撥補的多一點的話缺口小一點當然就會調少所以請部長好不好努力爭取是不是跟院長能這個一個禮拜內把這事情能夠做一個定案 是好不好那也讓人發現這已經討論一段時間了我覺得不要讓台灣不斷的持續在這種電價要漲不漲這樣的情緒當中我認為這個其實並不健康了 是"},{"start":8227.125,"end":8233.728,"text":"另外我也想請教一下,所以這個應該沒有所謂的經濟部跟主計總處不同調的問題吧?"},{"start":8233.728,"end":8245.334,"text":"沒有沒有,不是,我們都在密切溝通我也希望加強跟整個行政院的溝通,國家是一體的,政府是一體的當然中油也很辛苦,我認為中油連續5年是虧損,今年有沒有機會轉虧為盈?"},{"start":8250.766,"end":8273.876,"text":"跟委員報告今年有機會還是要看國際油氣價格的變化所以有機會轉會議部長其實中油當然也需要照顧但是相較於台電這個壓力更大所以我現在我們現在是先把所有的主力支持在台電那在中油甚至水的部分我們必須要維持它的穩定性主要目的就是減少整個物價上的一些波動的影響"},{"start":8275.137,"end":8278.159,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8297.893,"end":8322.615,"text":"出口跌破了三成也就是說其實我們在對美國日本或其他的都持續在增加那我們看到那個年增率的部分更是明顯在對於美國甚至於東南亞這個國家的部分其實很快速增加就是國家的整個整體策略方向走向全世界這個方向上看來是大力在推動那也減少對中國的依賴因為中國畢竟還是有些"},{"start":8323.135,"end":8324.456,"text":"在2020之前的時候經濟部門研判中國大陸這邊還會有進一步的動作"},{"start":8343.468,"end":8358.49,"text":"我們中國大陸他後續會怎麼做我們其實都要做準備那他要不要這個不是我們能夠掌握但是呢我們對產業的這些的扶植的我們都有加緊在進行"},{"start":8359.811,"end":8379.621,"text":"從最近來看不斷的對520這個賴總統當選的這個施壓是不斷在增加的那有可能在經濟上一樣持續來施壓所以包括像農漁機械、汽車的零配件包括紡織等等經濟部有做好的相關的萬全的準備了嗎?如果萬一他們有啟動任何的動作的話是是是所以這個都有做的準備了"},{"start":8379.941,"end":8385.884,"text":"所以比如說包括我們其實跟相關的產業有做很多的交流跟座談那比如說我們現在其實今年就啟動比如說包括把石化紡織機械一起到新興國家去這個展去拓銷市場那這個要到哪裡拓銷怎麼拓銷我們都充分跟業界做這個溝通"},{"start":8402.674,"end":8421.831,"text":"特別是這幾個的部分要再加強它的力道,減少那個,當然我們如果有更多的準備的時候,其實這個想對就比較不會被成為是這個作為他們的手段之一另外520之前的時候,因為經濟大概也是中國大陸對台灣的一個手段之一"},{"start":8423.012,"end":8425.534,"text":"有可能經濟部的判斷有可能全面清零嗎?"},{"start":8425.534,"end":8426.674,"text":"有可能全面的中止嗎?"},{"start":8426.674,"end":8447.126,"text":"ECFA的部分我們不預測但是我們一定是要做最好的準備所以要做各種的準備啦 做各種準備但不做預測但是我希望也要做各種的一個準備畢竟一個威權的體制專制體制它的決定性的因素不像民主國家體制是比較多元而理性可預判的"},{"start":8447.346,"end":8470.162,"text":"所以我希望這一塊經濟部還是要持續準備我不期望它發生但是如果萬一它發生的時候我們能夠協助我們業者度過這些狀況沒有錯 是那再來我最後一個想請教一下這個中油的部分中油其實在過去以來對於幼兒園的這個建設這個我很支持讓員工、地線員工那在高雄、苗栗跟嘉義都有設置的一些那個那我要講的是"},{"start":8471.383,"end":8477.651,"text":"高雄的部分小港有2333個員工,前陣有456個員工,林園有1323個員工,總數有4112個員工就近來設置我是建議董事長這邊能夠慎重思考男子那也設了這個我當然支持但是我說"},{"start":8490.086,"end":8518.672,"text":"在第一線的部分小港前陣零元更是需要了那我知道你們在前陣在小港有一塊背景的宿舍我建議其實背景宿舍讓員工第一線能夠做好的一些工作服務特別現在往週季二期在發展的時候中油在這邊的量會越來越吃重我希望中油甚至要評估在上面有一些宿舍以外在一樓的部分能有些幼兒園的設施讓員工未來在招募甚至他們的照顧家庭的時候更無後顧之憂董事長要不要說明一下"},{"start":8519.852,"end":8545.791,"text":"跟委員報告目前當然我們除了高雄、嘉義、苗栗、台北總公司其實也設了這個都是為了讓我們的同仁能夠安心上班那至於委員提出的問題第一線更應該做了好不好第一線更多的員工在演繹好不好因為這一塊在小港地區大林場現在有2000多位員工嘛林園場大概有1400、1500位員工最多的都在這個地方啦我希望一個禮拜內把你們評估結果給我知道好不好我們來演繹一下好 謝謝部長 謝謝總長"},{"start":8548.137,"end":8577.495,"text":"好 謝謝賴瑞榮委員這個中央董事長我提醒您一下齁這個同樣的問題齁您每一次的回答都不一樣剛剛本席問你說中油會不會轉虧為盈你跟我說會打平賴瑞榮問你你跟他說會轉虧為盈剛剛張祺凱問你如果打仗的時候你的儲槽的儲存量是多少你不回答所以我停你下面換鄭振前委員上來問同樣一個問題你就把日期都講出來了"},{"start":8578.72,"end":8579.1,"text":"接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":8617.989,"end":8621.784,"text":"謝謝主席那是不是有請我們中油董事長來請李董事長"},{"start":8629.185,"end":8638.907,"text":"董事長!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!市委員好!"},{"start":8658.906,"end":8676.338,"text":"因為我們當然要負擔,因為這個烏鴉戰爭,天然氣的價錢有這麼高,你現在要再負擔,天然氣照理說包括螺絲、包括我們要用的很多東西、我們的家的汽油,事實上都是在動漲狀態,所以這個動漲狀態大概中油吸收了多少錢?"},{"start":8681.816,"end":8710.188,"text":"跟委員報告光天然氣的部分從110年到113年2月其實我們吸收超過4千億光天然氣的部分天然氣吸收4千億?阿政策勒,阿政策面在動場的這部分就是配合政策動場的我們在電業方面吸收2300億在民生工業吸收了1700億那其他我們在汽柴油、LPG也都有吸收"},{"start":8710.919,"end":8719.784,"text":"所以是在這幾年,所以你們才會在109年度、110年度跟111年度各自虧損了從700億、392億到1861億大概就是在13年度是最嚴重的,尤其是在110年度那現在大概你們預判國際的天然氣的價格未來你們認為會怎麼走呢?"},{"start":8738.195,"end":8763.132,"text":"國際天然氣價格當然是在中產業的部分是跟布蘭特鹽油掛鉤那布蘭特鹽油今天是84塊所以這份布蘭特鹽油只要是占在80塊以上的話那整個中產業的價格大概就會每百萬立萬公尺會超過10塊以上那當然這裡還有一個轉換係數變成國內每度多少台幣那現貨的部分事實上是有走跌了也回軟下來"},{"start":8763.632,"end":8780.458,"text":"大概回到二五戰爭之前的那個樣的一個水平。那我們在觀察就是下半年度是不是他的走勢會怎麼樣才會影響到我們相關的... 那麼你們要買你就沒辦法說要買嘛,你們都要預判未來的狀況。 是是,所以我們應該有7%的合約。 現在我們看到就是說,我們在五二戰爭的時候,我們大概也簽了一些約,當時的價格是高的。"},{"start":8787.581,"end":8814.091,"text":"所以現在當然也是得去承擔這一些契約所累積下來的一個比較高的成本公文報告事實上我們前中產業是保量不保價它的價是跟著國際布蘭特研究的價格在變化保量不保價所以變化阿主委我們現在可以買的比較便宜就對了照你講的意思對它產業是這樣子但是現貨變化就比較大現貨可能會暴漲暴跌"},{"start":8815.403,"end":8818.086,"text":"那我們大概有75%是中場業、25%是現貨。 那我們大概有75%是中場業、25%是現貨。"},{"start":8833.242,"end":8859.54,"text":"我們事實上這邊預算就會估一個天然氣現貨的價格是多少然後原油布蘭特FOP是多少我們是在這個假設基礎下去抓他的這個預算所以我也是回到我最原始我知道你們身份是很重要的因素我們面對成本這個價格管的時候然後又要吸收包括台電的一些政策因素"},{"start":8860.28,"end":8863.682,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8887.293,"end":8901.916,"text":"我看到新聞說可能會編列1500億來做這個對台電的一個補助啦齁阿中油齁 您有一個好處捏 我覺得您比台電有一點好這是台電齁 怎麼會莫名其妙跑出那麼多名股的"},{"start":8902.657,"end":8904.258,"text":"您沒有嘛,您100%對吧?"},{"start":8904.258,"end":8919.349,"text":"是的。所以您相對於這個陷台前閉起來,您這個比較單純,您的定義跟政府可以完全方向是一致的,只要做回走啦。您有審查給我們部長請出說,是不是這個超增的部分中油也要補一下?"},{"start":8922.231,"end":8928.035,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們有爭取我們113年其實有爭取希望有200億的這樣子一個增資但是最後到大院裡面並沒有被核准那我們持續到大院所以是玩家?部裡面其實也OK"},{"start":8941.224,"end":8957.706,"text":"最後沒有被核准所以我說你這次也要去爭取我們其實也要去爭取因為我目前我感覺啦如果我們以去年中央政府可以多出了2900億這根不管是叫超徵預算或是政府多出來的一個稅收"},{"start":8959.648,"end":8976.899,"text":"這起來事實上就是趕快把台電跟中油的問題概括到好 台電不好解決因為他有民股 你們中油沒有這樣的壓力而且你們勢必未來中油不可能在 台電他們在面對包括說現在電價也好 包括說台電他要繼續要負擔這麼高的身份 國際煤炭的價格要這麼高的時候 你們也要再幫忙"},{"start":8984.884,"end":9013.751,"text":"所以我是覺得說部長這個你不用上來我是講給你聽啦與其這樣我們要去補助台電,台電他又有又有那些民股會有那邊雜音我們就補助中油啊中油繼續來幫助台電定律是轉一圈可是這個轉一圈相對於政府的預算而言他執行起來是更加的更加的不會有一些奇奇怪怪的狀況"},{"start":9017.829,"end":9043.925,"text":"謝謝委員我是跟部長有這樣的一個建議啦事實上這個是一個思考方向因為中油跟台電兩個雖然是不同公司可是他們扮演在評議台灣整體物價不要讓它上漲的時候你們的概念是一樣的所以我也希望你們要好好做包括說你們現在中油為了因應未來的減碳未來可以創造中油的ESG你們現在有上幾個研究方法到了我們現在"},{"start":9044.825,"end":9072.98,"text":"環境部也好到這個這個探全交易所我們送了幾個研究方法嗎?事實上這個那個整個探交易我們目前是在評估之中還在評估表示你們動作慢我跟你講這個東西未來這個探全就是一個可以讓你們的企業可以增值的所以你們得要加速你們的一些研究嘛你們要怎麼讓整個中油的企業讓你們可以更加的這個節能省碳"},{"start":9074.301,"end":9089.151,"text":"這中油是你們要扮演火車頭的角色,要做給外界的企業看嘛。 是是。 對不對,你們現在投入了這樣的一個成本都不會隨便投入,投入下去還可以創造公司的ESG,這為什麼不怕扁?"},{"start":9089.671,"end":9104.116,"text":"是是,我們一直一直在努力這方面好,我是覺得這一塊真的要努力啦,我剛才都提醒你們說,事實上政府要實在帶領這個步驟然後第二個就是說,我們這個問題比較小啦,不過我也是站在我一定要講一下,我們在那個議組,你們這個加油站,你們修理的進度有比較慢"},{"start":9111.769,"end":9112.049,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":9128.816,"end":9151.794,"text":"都會騎好幾公里,所以這個加油站進度幫我們稍微催一下,不要再延遲,這樣好不好?謝謝教員,不過我們希望努力在8月能夠復用。對啦,要快一點,盡量加快啦,所以我們地方老人家你要讓他站在那裡去加油,安全性我們也是很擔心,好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝參議與委員,接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言。"},{"start":9165.202,"end":9166.823,"text":"我用詞不夠精準,我對趙偉真的是有點抱歉"},{"start":9188.976,"end":9217.448,"text":"到底是哪一個?會持續虧損還是會打平還是會轉虧為盈?因為我們會計給我抓的根據估計的油氣價格去抓的話大概在打平附近但是我們會努力會努力去創造一些盈利但是這個我抱歉我剛回答不夠精準這個財務應該是很精確的不是很抽象因為油氣價格變化很大好啦就是繼續努力啦是是謝謝委員那個液化天然氣"},{"start":9219.008,"end":9247.888,"text":"我們所有接收站都是在西岸對不對是包括一階就在我選區二階在台中三階在桃園如果兩岸發生衝突台灣海峽會不會被封鎖有可能會被封鎖對不對所以我們所有接收站就是在西岸那萬一封鎖的時候這些這個油氣船沒辦法進來沒辦法靠港"},{"start":9249.178,"end":9249.318,"text":"第一個齁"},{"start":9271.874,"end":9297.105,"text":"假設封鎖那這個是天底下的大事了全球的大事這是第一個那第二個齁動案如果可以設他早就會去設了那他動案有很多的地址問題還有使用需求的問題那因為天然氣都是需要管線來拉所以在動案設有其實有很多客觀主觀的問題你要想到最壞的狀況是這個其他國家影響絕對不會比台灣大"},{"start":9298.26,"end":9324.227,"text":"如果直接發生衝突的話,那個衝突區域最有可能就是在台灣海峽嗎?沒有,如果假設單純是封鎖...或是它進行封鎖的時候,你那個船怎麼進來?這個就影響了,不僅是台灣影響亞洲,也影響全世界的貿易。其他的國家它可以從太平洋,可以從東岸走啊。那補給船可以從東岸走啊。對不對?所以我們所有集團都在西岸特別注意,是不是有替代的方案。"},{"start":9326.192,"end":9333.336,"text":"另外,你要投40億去海勝風場,中油40億,台電出多少錢?"},{"start":9333.336,"end":9338.618,"text":"台電大概是20億左右。 總共60億。 是。 這個風場建設希望達到國產化, 台電、中油、海勝風場導入有辦法做到國產化嗎?"},{"start":9352.391,"end":9379.907,"text":"這個委員很關心齁那這個問題我們會盡量來討論那最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有相關的供應鏈齁再做交換一次要讓你們兄弟公司中鋼啊嗷嗷待哺這個新達海基為了追求國產化那國產化學習期限高當然會造成成本會比較高如果你那兄弟公司都不相挺"},{"start":9381.816,"end":9382.398,"text":"請何以堪?"},{"start":9393.667,"end":9418.273,"text":"跟委員報告這一塊事實上我們站在中油投資的立場所以我們其實也在要求要依照相關的規定國廠化的比例60%這個一定要符合規定 我是建議啦一樣是國營事業要小廳啦謝謝伯陵你應該做一個這個協調者應該做一個整合者怎麼樣把國營事業力量結合在一起好 謝謝委員這個我們後續會來處理另外這個"},{"start":9423.553,"end":9445.779,"text":"全球這種燃油車慢慢是希望這個能夠淘汰對不對競售燃油車那這個未來這個替代性能源或者是這個乾淨能源中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向去轉型做了哪些準備不要說氫能氫能的部分未來可能會有很多的加氫戰"},{"start":9447.623,"end":9475.306,"text":"這部分這個中油有沒有相關的準備跟委員報告事實上嘉青站剛剛也回應過我們希望我們這個得標的廠商令德能夠在6月份能夠進來然後我們希望在第三季再完成相關的別的工作場所省的等等還有包括目前這個建造取得等等這些我們希望努力在第三季"},{"start":9476.363,"end":9502.83,"text":"能夠第一座可移動式的嘉青市販站這是一個趨勢而且是不可逆的所以未來大概二三十年之內可能所有的燃油的車輛都會被淘汰我們也有設定這個目標長期的目標所以按照你們這個中油轉型策略有一個研究有不同的模式"},{"start":9506.072,"end":9507.693,"text":"對於這三種可能的這個模式有沒有政策的相關的這個的選擇"},{"start":9536.873,"end":9539.775,"text":"在這個相關車輛的我們確實跟交通部在跨部會在討論那這個也確實有參考國際性對那個相關的這個車輛的部分的這個方向那中油的部分我們大概幾個方向然後一個就是減少這個這個煉製然後增加石化的供應鏈那第二個呢對這個"},{"start":9561.713,"end":9567.996,"text":"中油在電池的部分他們在研發那個軟碳那這個做的也還不錯那我們也會持續請中油再多做研發的部分那輕能車我們確實請中油來跟國際的廠商來合作那目前他們跟日商有在做一個前期的一個評估那等等的這個部分我們確實中油部分未來面臨整個大的能源轉型上他要做的事情確實非常多"},{"start":9591.428,"end":9615.348,"text":"我剛剛說這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇啦是中油這三種策略你們比較偏好作為轉型的主要策略以中油的立場當然是我們理貨能夠往輕能發展那這樣子我的加油站可以順利轉成加薪站對中油的業務對中油的商業模式應該相對比較好"},{"start":9616.602,"end":9623.074,"text":"這是站在中油的立場所以目前轉型策略還是往輕能車如果成為主流你們廣設這個加薪站"},{"start":9625.592,"end":9648.421,"text":"這是你們未來轉型的策略。那你這個氫能的部分到底做了哪些的準備?氫能當然除了在加氫站之外,事實上我們在產氫包括是藍氫或是未來的綠氫當然包括在整個輸送的過程中包括氫的劑量還有包括它一些相關的"},{"start":9648.881,"end":9651.862,"text":"再提供給委員在30秒鐘再請教一個問題你們在這個油氣探勘跟開發部分國外的目標國家有幾個?"},{"start":9672.59,"end":9688.92,"text":"我們這幾年又投入6個新的礦區包括索馬利蘭包括墨西哥包括澳洲有兩個包括巴拉圭還有包括我們在印尼East Surin這邊有住宿的國家"},{"start":9692.035,"end":9719.037,"text":"這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的?都是合作的模式那這些6個新的礦區到底已經開始產油了嗎?沒有,現在其實很多是剛開始通過之後我們再做一些攤攤這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本?這一部分恐怕我們再整理相關的資料再跟委員來做報告時間到了,我也不能再用太多時間"},{"start":9721.445,"end":9733.109,"text":"請董事長再準備一些資料給邱志偉委員黃國昌委員不好意思我剛有宣告說要休息5分鐘我們現在休息5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10099.926,"end":10100.126,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":10127.92,"end":10137.859,"text":"市委主席,有請部長以及中油董事長來,請部長跟李董,謝謝是,好,位好"},{"start":10139.127,"end":10162.89,"text":"委員好 延續昨天質詢的話題 台原綠能去年大虧了2.7億 我對於綠能政策我支持 但我反對用國家的資源去養派系權貴 去讓特定的系統在上下起手 這個是我昨天在質詢部長的時候 我所要表明的立場"},{"start":10163.971,"end":10188.942,"text":"但我昨天一直在問這件事情的時候部長看到這張圖然後一直說什麼一直說來來來我把去昨天啊質詢的話講說部長你說我真的要講吳國欽跟可威完全沒關是另一個可威這個對他太不公平這完全錯誤委員你可能要先回去澄清一下我昨天在質詢的時候從頭到尾都還沒有進入吳國欽"},{"start":10190.143,"end":10208.804,"text":"部長你兩次跟我說我搞錯,要我回去澄清,我回去反省了很久啊,請問部長你要我澄清什麼?跟委員致歉齁,那這個之前有在講可憐慰的那個部分,那因為有人確實把一些... 有人是我嗎?沒有我沒有講我... 我批評第一章是這樣寫嗎?"},{"start":10210.799,"end":10212.54,"text":"你要不要道歉有人講錯算到我頭上喔我昨天PVP是不是長成這個樣子我昨天圖是不是長這樣上面哪一個字寫錯"},{"start":10237.174,"end":10261.882,"text":"欸這邊相關的人事的部分等一下我們可以說明齁這個不是委員講的昨天口頭講的這些問題你昨天開的這個圖不是要我回去搞清楚要我澄清說對他不公平我要跟委員講的是吳國欽去當台研綠能的這個部分其實是我們拜託他去的欸沒有關係齁你是不是拜託他去那是下一個層次的問題齁"},{"start":10264.264,"end":10286.688,"text":"我在做諮詢資料的時候我自我要求很嚴格我所有的東西都有出處都有鎖本所以主席部長在背景台上這樣指控我說這完全錯誤我要回去澄清一下我剛才已經跟委員致歉了那委員會來要問這些委員可以事先給我們我們可以來做回應我們繼續往下問吳國慶他本來的職務是什麼"},{"start":10294.977,"end":10316.408,"text":"他是在國營會的這邊當組長所以他對於綠能有什麼樣的專業他非常懂他非常懂是不是他督導我們中油台電特別是台電的部分所以針對有關於台年綠能的部分部長你有信心他下去當總經理以後可以好好整頓嗎"},{"start":10317.697,"end":10341.325,"text":"可以好好整頓嗎?我們就是拜託他幫我們...今天部長表現了這樣子的誠意我就跟部長講我從台言綠能從當地我所收到他們檢舉的內容我再說一次我的立場很簡單我不允許國家的資源讓特定的派系權貴上下其手這是我的立場"},{"start":10343.649,"end":10360.582,"text":"具體的看我為什麼說齁臺原力能成為派系上下的起手當初引進這四大名股我知道經濟部反對但臺原力能的董事長啊膽子很大經濟部反對他也不管就引進了四大名股嘛"},{"start":10361.513,"end":10390.183,"text":"昨天部長有講到臺元利能虧損很重要的一個原因就是在嘉義異族的案場嘛對吧?嘉義異族的案場提列了很多呆帳有很多現在要也要不到他們現在在種採光結果引進了民股蔡清旭蔡清旭就是跟臺南在那邊搞爐渣光店的同一個人他們都是做下包商"},{"start":10391.892,"end":10416.123,"text":"全都拿走然後結果是什麼?他們在賺錢台研綠能是什麼?在虧錢一模一樣土地開發的部分拿著台研綠能的招牌在外面收地這個鴻輝國際結果最後發現原來陳啟玉他兒子在那邊任職土地開發整合費全部都賺到鴻輝的口袋裡面去"},{"start":10417.045,"end":10442.938,"text":"他們在賺錢國家在虧錢有這種道理喔這個就是我看不下去的地方台演藝人之前的這個部分我們也整理了那再過來就是需要檢調來澄清所以這個部分我們也送給檢調行事犯罪第二個吳國欽的部分部長你信任他拜託他去當總經理我希望他展現魄力大刀拓斧的改革"},{"start":10443.938,"end":10448.261,"text":"現在有上千位的民眾正在入港張斌的服務中心抗議他們抗議什麼?經濟部要在那邊設經濟的焚化爐"},{"start":10472.284,"end":10501.038,"text":"但他們很憤怒的事情是什麼這件事情去年民進黨政府林佳龍啊是帶著什麼當地的立委去跟鄉親保證絕對沒有這樣的事絕對不會推動經濟部絕對不會允許在這邊要設焚化爐結果到今年跳票了我知道這件事情以後一位彰化環保聯盟的總幹事施悅英斯老師來找我陳其我聽了很震驚啊"},{"start":10502.267,"end":10512.707,"text":"林佳龍做了這麼莊嚴的承諾怎麼會跳票部長你要不要說明一下是到底有要幹還是沒有要幹林佳龍的承諾算數還是不算數"},{"start":10513.81,"end":10531.113,"text":"金鼎是承租我們這個髒冰的相關的這個土地那要做這個事情那我們這個部分有相關的規範那合約也有他應該做的事情比如說他要得到彰化縣的許可那這些程序因為對我們來說我們有這個相關合約的期限那期限之前他要去履行這些東西如果到時候沒有辦法"},{"start":10542.915,"end":10559.53,"text":"期限到什麼時候?相關的期限我要問同仁因為我只講最後一句話當地的居民很憤怒現在上千人已經把那個地方擠爆了還有很多人進不去我剛剛看到現場抗議的畫面大家只問一件事情"},{"start":10560.734,"end":10583.869,"text":"政府講話算不算話?林佳龍的承諾算不算數?我希望部長今天在那邊經濟部的同仁要給大家一個清楚的說明這樣可以嗎?我們都有相關的合約期程我們會來處理西部的內容是不是再請經濟部提供給黃國昌委員?是謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":10593.812,"end":10594.773,"text":"政府說的話算不算話 要算話吧"},{"start":10613.848,"end":10636.123,"text":"對我們經濟部我們要按照相關的合約來處理如果說有這樣的承諾就不應該再發聲讓民眾要去抗爭我想這是最基本的政府的公信力第二個部分我也請中油請李董部長我想在台北大家都知道在台北的內湖區有大台北瓦斯的六顆瓦斯槽"},{"start":10637.454,"end":10659.609,"text":"這個是大台北瓦斯在臺北市的供氣的儲氣槽那這6顆瓦斯槽從我20幾年前當議員其實當地的民眾還有市政府都希望能夠及早的遷移那他們一直都說這個是因為中油的關係中油的供氣不足、中油的原因所以在106年當時臺北市產發局就已經做了兩個決定第一個"},{"start":10666.432,"end":10685.778,"text":"幫大台北瓦斯去找了其他遷移的場址找了14個地方但是這公司他說要花很多錢他不要另外一個方案就是台灣經濟研究院當時評估過如果要移除的話只要確認中油的二期輸氣工程也就是關堂三接完工之後"},{"start":10686.926,"end":10714.601,"text":"能夠增加臺北市的民生工氣未來就可以布建穩定的輸配電管網系統也就是導入第二氣源就可以拆除這六座除氣槽董事長是嗎?根文報告我們在配管的部分已經完成了那現在要不要拆其實是業者所以他已經做到了穩定的工氣以及不至於還需要這六座除氣槽繼續存在在臺北市區了對吧?"},{"start":10714.941,"end":10744.501,"text":"我們的管線是可以來處理那還是尊重業者接下來接下來的問題就是不是尊重業者我們是政府這個除氣槽很有趣他是大台北瓦斯公司他提供的是台北市其他行政區他的位置設在內湖但是內湖人用的是新湖瓦斯這是一個很離譜的事情第二個他旁邊就是密集的住宅區當年是把綠地變成了公共事業用地現在其實只是還地於民所以"},{"start":10745.161,"end":10761.012,"text":"中油的部分我們現在就是他要跟你重談合約也就是說你跟他現在的合約現在是不是正在協議中你還要問你跟他的公企合約是不是應該再把我們這個部分加進來在111年的時候當時秋生委員會開過協調會"},{"start":10766.636,"end":10777.752,"text":"你們應該要跟他在合約裡面從你而且供氣壓力穩定之後就要停用這個在你們的合約一定範圍之內董事長你有納進去嗎?"},{"start":10778.877,"end":10798.506,"text":"是,那個合約我們當時就協調的結果就是先延到今年年底那在談新的合約的時候會一併處理好,所以部長我希望經濟部、能源署還有中油這種所謂的零幣設施而且它已經存在現在已經沒有公用的東西我們希望能夠"},{"start":10800.592,"end":10821.648,"text":"由你們來協助大台北瓦斯公司包括它的管網、供氣的穩定還有備援能源的需求還有瓦斯槽的拆除都能夠一併來協助由中油來主導能夠讓這個六顆瓦斯槽早日從內湖去拆除部長可以請你們來跟能源署一起來協助嗎"},{"start":10822.87,"end":10841.628,"text":"剛才委員講得很好他涉及的因素委員都講了吼那有一些這個我們中央或者中油可以來協助的可以協助那當然他還要有大台北瓦斯本身的這個部分只要中油供氣穩定我相信他就沒有正當理由再繼續留這個這個就可以我們可以大力的協助"},{"start":10842.068,"end":10855.577,"text":"這件事情很重要另外我想問一下中油的部分你們接下去在印度的投資還會繼續或擴大或者是我們可以增加更多的新南向的擴張我們中油而不會我們希望能夠你們能夠多賺點錢少點虧損"},{"start":10857.698,"end":10882.713,"text":"跟委員報告印度的辦公室我們已經採測了因為我們去那邊幾年那一直跟投資印度這個單位也不是印度人都談不攏所以有沒有其他擴充或者是在營業範圍之內可以告訴國人的目前印度方面是沒有好的部長麻煩你我講這個瓦斯槽希望在台北市能夠崛起謝謝"},{"start":10889.096,"end":10889.936,"text":"王宏威徐欣盈主席"},{"start":10914.324,"end":10929.036,"text":"部長好,本席因為昨天這不小心名字跳過沒有質詢到所以我今天還是想跟您利用這4分鐘討論一下我們調漲電價的問題我相信部長很清楚就是電價的調漲"},{"start":10932.599,"end":10953.411,"text":"這個不只是調漲電價,它是整個社會結構中很重要的一環。也就是電價漲起來會讓我們的物價一波一波的漲,就像海浪一樣一波一波的。我們如果沒有做好配套,它會變成驚濤駭浪。那我們整個的物價通膨,我覺得這個我們的民眾會受不了。"},{"start":10954.331,"end":10979.563,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面也有特別寫到你們在2022年到2023年有一些配套但是那些配套主要第一個它的基期比較低你說它的銀額創歷史新高那其實是因為過去我們這個因為疫情的關係所以這個比較上它是比較低它比較低它本來銀額就低那第二個就是"},{"start":10980.343,"end":11007.977,"text":"如果這個配套這兩年覺得已經給民眾有緩衝了可是這一次漲電價如果沒有做好配套那你是讓民眾連本帶利一次又要還給你所以首先本席第一個問題想請教您有提到說希望行政院可以補助1500億那現在不知道您這個目前有沒有把握還是現在的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":11009.162,"end":11025.671,"text":"因為你們這個試算的這個結果還沒有確定是還沒確定那您可以積極的為我們民眾爭取嗎那第二個本席也想特別講的就是我們這個配套裡面除了"},{"start":11027.669,"end":11048.719,"text":"我們讓他緩之外我們希望漲電價他的配套包含能夠有薪資調漲因為對於年輕人還有很多弱勢你電價一漲萬物起漲那他們是受不了他們本來生活就比較辛苦了所以如果可以薪資先漲我們再來調電價這樣會不會比較好"},{"start":11052.261,"end":11054.264,"text":"這個部分您跟行政院有沒有這個方向的一個規劃我想院裡面會通盤去檢討那對台電來講事實上跟其他國家比起來台電就是一直在為了物價部分在緩漲甚至這個造成現在這麼大的一個虧損"},{"start":11071.265,"end":11092.301,"text":"這個跟其他國家比起來,其他國家確實都在衝突的反應本席主要是說因為您是經濟部長然後漲電價也是您所屬的單位這邊在漲所以這整個的配套我們希望部長跟行政院這裡是不是可以在薪資調漲的部分可以走在前面"},{"start":11093.341,"end":11107.667,"text":"相關的這個部分那去年才這個最低工資的這個審議才有在有增加嗎那這個部分是院裡面其實也都在提升國內的這個薪資水準是"},{"start":11108.507,"end":11123.284,"text":"那針對這一波漲電價本席指的是這一波漲電價我們針對這個漲電價我們要做好配套他絕對不是只有電價的問題本席也在這邊表達就是我們認同我們的"},{"start":11123.985,"end":11124.866,"text":"新知的配套我們請部長這裡跟行政院能夠還是能夠積極來進行"},{"start":11154.208,"end":11157.351,"text":"羅致強 羅致強 羅致強委員不在 紅夢凱 紅夢凱 紅夢凱委員不在 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在 牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":11182.059,"end":11188.214,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請 謝謝來請部長跟李董事長"},{"start":11194.023,"end":11220.123,"text":"市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期桃園第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問了請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答"},{"start":11221.065,"end":11235.158,"text":"根文報告事實上這個過去討厭市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題"},{"start":11236.599,"end":11259.571,"text":"所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個簽譽的一個全體條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為"},{"start":11262.993,"end":11275.446,"text":"每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的 大家都會反對對不對對當地都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎"},{"start":11276.811,"end":11294.115,"text":"所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢"},{"start":11298.738,"end":11313.169,"text":"當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個"},{"start":11315.41,"end":11342.928,"text":"大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這事要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型"},{"start":11344.25,"end":11360.589,"text":"請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命"},{"start":11362.972,"end":11388.765,"text":"大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以本期要求就是老舊的鍋爐如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下修的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低"},{"start":11389.825,"end":11407.228,"text":"這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能啊或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施啊"},{"start":11407.688,"end":11436.436,"text":"它相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某一些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎"},{"start":11438.437,"end":11460.45,"text":"最後一個是我們跟台灣市政府台灣市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟台灣市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛"},{"start":11461.11,"end":11476.627,"text":"才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?"},{"start":11480.39,"end":11482.532,"text":"接下來我們請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒穩不在、羅明才、羅明才、羅明才穩不在"},{"start":11504.691,"end":11526.104,"text":"臨德福臨德福臨德福委員不在那我們另外準備4分鐘給謝伊鳳委員謝謝主席因為我時間有限我就同時請王部長跟我們中油董事長來請王部長跟李董事長"},{"start":11530.72,"end":11557.065,"text":"王部長,我今天也是沒有辦法準時來報導就是因為經鼎的案子那你是不是說明一下就是到底是因為林佳龍秘書長的承諾還是今天如果在地的民眾表達不同意的意見那的確有可能經鼎公司就沒有辦法如實的拿到整個許可,是不是?"},{"start":11558.765,"end":11586.035,"text":"對經濟部來講因為我們跟經鼎有相關的合約那合約有期程那非常重要是我們確實在合約裡面有要求經鼎一定要拿到地方政府的執照那當然地方的溝通一定要做因為這是環評應該走的程序那所以這一些的前提如果都沒有辦法這個完成的話那會影響這個合約的部分那所以這個合約的期限是不是在3月底"},{"start":11586.855,"end":11605.066,"text":"我們的合約的期限沒有你來說明啦你不要跟委員報告今天在經營公司他所辦理的相關的說明會是來自於依照環評法的規定那他必須要去做的一個作業程序以上"},{"start":11606.294,"end":11623.921,"text":"那所以合約期限呢?我再講合約期限相關的期程如果沒有沒有辦法順利等等的那因為我們這個相關的合約我們會看他有沒有履行合約的這些階段性必要的條件等等的那後續我們再來處理所以今天"},{"start":11627.242,"end":11654.898,"text":"在場的民眾已經表達了抗議以及不支持的情況所以如果沒有在場民眾其實林佳榮秘書長當初的承諾也沒有辦法解套啊是不是我想這個相關的當地的居民的這個意見是重要的啦那當然更重要是他有沒有辦法拿到縣政府的相關執照這個都是相關合約能不能往下走的前提好"},{"start":11655.678,"end":11668.646,"text":"那我再問一下因為昨天我在問主計長朱哲銘的時候他提到了今年的經濟成長如果是3.4%他們預估的他們預估的指裡面中油的油價"},{"start":11670.508,"end":11675.414,"text":"中油對於今年油價評估,今年油價的確是市場上面非常不確定的因素,你對油價評估是如何的?"},{"start":11686.247,"end":11704.317,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們目前預算書是抓80.5塊預算書113年預算書那事實上我們目前那你會賠多休業來講的話大概是80.6其實很接近那整個我們也在掌握整個國際大公司對下半年油價的一個走勢"},{"start":11705.057,"end":11706.318,"text":"那下半年油價呢?"},{"start":11706.318,"end":11733.778,"text":"對,那我們其實認為它低大概也有支撐就是去年得到70出頭這裡那高大概也不會高到95就是會在這個區間去做盤整你說70對,就過去大概70到95之間因為它的波動其實要看很多因素那機率大?往上的機率大還是往下的機率大?我們看起來應該是食品在這個地方八十幾塊的可能性比較大"},{"start":11734.378,"end":11749.456,"text":"所以不會影響到經濟成長?如果是80幾塊就不會影響到經濟成長那對於電力的需求那就相對的大了是不是那如果"},{"start":11752.423,"end":11775.066,"text":"我們中油你如果預估的油價是往高的時候那對於中油的虧損你預計是多少?你們有雙環產的那個政策嗎?那對於如果油價區間在八十或者是九十八十的時候你預估你們的虧損是多少?九十的時候你們預估虧損是多少?"},{"start":11775.666,"end":11777.207,"text":"今年最大的不確定因素的確是在石油啊,是不是?"},{"start":11798.102,"end":11804.915,"text":"還是油氣因為氣會跟著油來變動因為國企的天然氣價格JKM我只有4分鐘你回歸到主題你應該有試算過嘛就講吧"},{"start":11811.257,"end":11811.997,"text":"中油公司吸收的政策人物會更多?"},{"start":11811.997,"end":11812.217,"text":"多少?"},{"start":11837.777,"end":11853.948,"text":"我這塊如果我們試算以後有那個你都沒有講你們都已經你都已經有抓出區間了你就應該試算了嘛是不是不願意講不是不是因為我們各種各種情境要必須要有一些假設前提就是說我的"},{"start":11854.648,"end":11857.511,"text":"這裡頭除了油價、不然就是FOP還要再看JKM它的現貨價格 因為它的那個浮動所以會影響他們怎麼試算 那他們的預算是以說如果油價是80塊的話大概是今年度希望可以打平這樣的一個情境 那90塊呢?"},{"start":11877.347,"end":11886.293,"text":"90塊鐵定會虧損的虧損多少他不講虧損多少就會跟油價跟氣價的這個相關的情形有一些變有一些互相變動的問題"},{"start":11889.629,"end":11917.347,"text":"如果這樣子說啦,過去我在煉油廠的經驗就是說如果煉油每上漲一塊錢每斤對我的整個成本會增加大概四億多啦,如果這樣子的話上漲到九十塊大概會增加四十幾億的成本那如果這些成本沒辦法在7D3V的這個售價來做反應的話那這部分就是我要新說的我看你好像都沒有算了,下次要來報告之前你應該要算好喔,不然不問你就問部長"},{"start":11925.417,"end":11946.253,"text":"我們登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢與詢答結束另外有楊瓊英委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會各位同仁針對中油的預算案如果有修正動議或者是相關的提案"},{"start":11947.494,"end":11967.172,"text":"請於3月20日中午12點以前送經濟委員會辦公室會証以利後續的作業預時不再收案請3月20日禮拜三中午12點以前送經濟委員會辦公室會証好本日議程所列討論事項詢答完畢令定期繼續進行審查現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":11975.658,"end":11981.624,"text":"還有兩個委員會要主席,我們要趕他一下我們這邊結束了,但他目前還在別個委員會裡我先跟上1950元1950元1950元"},{"start":12005.35,"end":12005.39,"text":"第12屆第13會議"},{"start":12024.582,"end":12024.922,"text":"第12屆第1會議第12屆"}]}},{"id":"15725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15725","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d6d0b2a5b2cc6652c2042dc10dca826773be8d109af184be41304484951cb89f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-14","start_time":"2024-03-14T08:31:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:57:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12417,"委員發言時間":"08:31:02 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Taiwan Tech Arena率隊赴美參加CES"},{"start":2302.654,"end":2316.8,"text":"自107年到現在隨團參展的新創人數已有3倍成長已接近100家具體顯示國科會多年來致力新創發展深厚產學新創的認同"},{"start":2318.4,"end":2342.623,"text":"國科會在力推學研新創之餘．我們的科學園區．也以發揮產業群聚的積極效應．並佈局下世代產業發展所需的用地．各項核定園區的新設及擴建計畫等公共工程．以陸續動土平科加科實驗中學．也預計在今年的8月開始招生竹科XGD及"},{"start":2344.245,"end":2360.542,"text":"新竹生育園區第三生技大樓也規劃在今年落成使用科學園區將延續精緻多元 優生活節能永續的方向 扶植高質化新興科技 帶動產業的升級創造就業機會成為臺灣和世界經濟成長的重要力量"},{"start":2366.991,"end":2395.079,"text":"台灣的科技研發及產業實力深受全球矚目國科會將持續完善以人為本的科技體系橫頻內化產業創新深化社會包容及強化環境永續以國家長期戰略為考量省度國內外經濟、自然環境及地緣政治等多方情勢破壞具長遠競爭力的科技政策為台灣打造下世代的護國群山"},{"start":2395.859,"end":2401.647,"text":"以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2405.114,"end":2432.547,"text":"好 我們謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那現在進行詢答每位出席委員諮詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員諮詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間上午10時30分委員如果臨時提案也請上午10時30分前提出並與本會委員范雲委員諮詢後"},{"start":2433.948,"end":2444.831,"text":"及進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理好我們首先請發言登記第一位萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝召委我們有請吳政忠主委請吳主委"},{"start":2461.731,"end":2490.287,"text":"王委員長好主委長我想主委您從201616年從蔡英文總統上任之後那你就擔任了行政院的科技政委那接著呢您又這個擔任了科技部的部長也很長一段時間然後我們新的科會上來之後您又擔任首任的這個主任委員可以說是在科技這個部分扮演非常重要的一個角色也是有很多都是延續性的這個政策那最近耳聞好像賴準總統已經有徵詢過你願不願意續任是有這件事嗎"},{"start":2491.547,"end":2492.888,"text":"沒有,完全沒有沒有應該不會那個"},{"start":2506.428,"end":2507.489,"text":"所以你就是勢必會離開這個位置了?"},{"start":2533.222,"end":2550.432,"text":"那這樣子是蠻可惜的我想應該這個國科會的同仁也會很捨不得你那說實話表現真的還不錯但是我們還是要在520之前即便您已經決定要離開這個位置了但是我們坐一天和尚喬一天鐘何況我相信您也是兢兢業業的在做所以我們今天來討論一下我們科學園區那本席看到我們科學園區的整體的營業額從2015年開始你看一下這個表"},{"start":2557.896,"end":2564.164,"text":"每年8年的營業額都是攀升的但是在去年我們看到整個營收3兆9億4390億3兆9439億然後比這個2022看起來4兆2700億衰退的整整有7.56%其實蠻多的那這個原因是為什麼"},{"start":2577.62,"end":2604.536,"text":"那個事實上我們在看那個經濟的成長事實上是看3年5年的那個趨勢所以那個趨勢是往上但是因為2022剛好在2021的時候大概因為COVID然後去預期說未來會需要很多的半導體晶片事實上半導體扮演一個蠻大的waiting所以我想我們對於這個數字我不是那麼的擔心因為那個"},{"start":2606.457,"end":2619.661,"text":"他在往上的過程會有稍微的拉回 這個是正常的好 所以您是有信心的嗎 是的好 那但是我們來看因為行政院其實已經算拍板定案了大概4月份或者4月以後其實都會漲電價那之前其實我們在這個2022、2023針對用電大戶其實我們都有調漲過這個電價了但是如果這一次4月份再漲而且傳出恐怕要漲25%非常的多"},{"start":2633.364,"end":2658.672,"text":"現在我們看到營收下滑,雖然你認為他是這個趨勢,要看趨勢,但本期看到是說那有沒有可能從今年開始這個趨勢是整個往下,因為您是看過去累積到今年嘛,那店家又要漲,那這會不會雪上加霜?那個好,事實上大家如果看這個,這個是yes and no,就是說我們這個台灣的半導體扮演蠻大的角色,那知道那個waiting蠻大的時候,半導體的獲利率"},{"start":2660.313,"end":2682.824,"text":"是非常高的所以電費在他的這個比例裡面事實上沒有佔那麼大你的意思是說半導體產業不在乎漲電價也就是說他會去衡量但是我想經濟部在他們那個審議委員會在訂電價的時候也會考慮到各個不同的這個stakeholder他的一些忍受度那我想這個會他們會來全盤考量"},{"start":2684.745,"end":2710.043,"text":"我想經濟部在這個考量的時候您這裡的意見也扮演很重要的角色那我其實本席不認為說這個半導體因為過去獲利各方面那就會不在乎漲電價我覺得這對他們來說還是非常因為用電量很大所以我希望經濟部在考量漲電價針對用電大戶的時候您這裡也可以提供必要的意見那接下來我再跟您討論關於一個很大的計畫叫做桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案"},{"start":2710.803,"end":2720.328,"text":"在去年選前的時候12月賴清澤準統統推出了桃竹苗大矽谷計畫他說是要擴大科學園區的版圖等等甚至於說這個方案預期會帶來產值6兆增加14萬就業人口本席的選區就在桃園"},{"start":2728.252,"end":2746.16,"text":"所以我們也引領期盼到底這個計劃對桃園到時候帶來什麼樣正面的一個幫助不過據本席了解這一個計劃整個主責的單位是國發會但是整個計劃的核心我想這個國科會扮演很重要的角色那主委這個計劃您個人有沒有參與團隊參與度到什麼地方能不能簡單說明一下"},{"start":2750.822,"end":2752.483,"text":"那到底什麼叫大矽谷計畫呢?大矽谷就是我們桃竹苗"},{"start":2775.863,"end":2801.406,"text":"內容是什麼呢?要做什麼呢?那個要問國發會所以您也不知道我大概知道但是也就是說基本上從我們的這個新竹這邊往南往北的擴張那大溪谷事實上主委我想這邊我打斷您一下我覺得其實您真的很接地氣你知道嗎因為您的看法跟本席跟桃園市民或者這個新竹苗栗的市民大家看法都一樣因為我們也不知道"},{"start":2801.846,"end":2805.81,"text":"就聽到一個沸沸揚揚的大計畫然後呢高達這個預算兩百億我們就聽到一個名稱非常這個讓人家驚豔的名稱的一個計畫然後讓人家覺得非常驚訝的一筆預算然後內容是什麼真的都不知道那但是雖然說主責單位是國發會但我們知道啊詳細的計畫的核心其實國科會也是扮演很重要的角色啦"},{"start":2824.147,"end":2828.55,"text":"現在我們都還不知道這個計劃內容是什麼其實本席非常的擔憂為什麼前面有個例子嘛端來一個大餅這麼大然後烤得香香的大餅叫做台積電要來桃園了結果呢一場空現在再來一個桃竹廟大細股計劃那是不是每四年到選舉到的時候就要餵我們桃園吃一塊大餅但是看得見吃不到所以我覺得這樣是不行的所以我想"},{"start":2848.145,"end":2875.279,"text":"當然這個主委是即將520就要離開了那我希望在把握最後的這個時間點針對啊既然已經提出來的大矽谷計畫能不能有更詳盡的一個內容那不管是國科會這邊要負責的或者是主責是國發會只要跟您這裡有相關的能不能會後提供一個至少有一個內容讓我們來了解可以嗎這個針對科學園區這邊以後的一些想法我想我們會來提供好多久可以提供到本席辦公室"},{"start":2879.713,"end":2899.963,"text":"不要告訴我520以前好嗎?那個一個月了一個月好那就麻煩喔那接下來再請教一下這個金創計畫這本席之前好像有關心過喔那這個計畫是一個10年計畫預計要投入3000億的經費喔那是說我們希望能夠在今年在這個中東歐國家設置第一個海外基地"},{"start":2901.424,"end":2921.24,"text":"海外基地的功能非常多,希望吸引國際學生來台就讀,產業界人士來台發展,做全球IC人才的佈局等等,利益非常良善。我看到現在我們國科會駐外的科技組在中東歐的國家,當然是有德國、捷克跟立陶宛這三個國家,還有其他的嗎?"},{"start":2922.841,"end":2939.079,"text":"法國也有在歐洲一共有一個地點那這個計畫現在有沒有鎖定要先以哪一個國家來作為我們的一個開始那當然我會這樣問也是我想不管是本席是我們這個捷克中華民國捷克跟我們這個國會友好聯盟會的會長那過去"},{"start":2942.022,"end":2967.396,"text":"我想科技部跟捷克之間也有很多很好的互動所以本席也就在想說其實我們是不是如果能夠以捷克為第一個開始的話這個計畫能夠更順利一些那這個主委可不可以回答一下那個萬委員提到這個金創的確是臺灣未來10年蠻重要的一個計畫有時候從科技引領到未來深層式人工智慧包括IC Design"},{"start":2967.836,"end":2985.995,"text":"那我想捷克是一個蠻這個蠻蠻這個符合我們的想法的一個國家但是應該是近期之內我們會來確定是在哪一個城市那個跟委員報告那個不是在哪一個國家而已而是他在那個city"},{"start":2986.235,"end":2991.319,"text":"我們也希望這個能夠盡快開始因為每一個計畫喊出來以後執行落實才是最重要的"},{"start":3005.53,"end":3022.361,"text":"最後我想諸位也知道本席對於女性科技人才的支持那向來不遺餘力我們看到其實國科會有一個案子叫做鼓勵女性從事科學及技術研究的專案執行計劃那這個成果我們可以看到從110年開始我們看一下這個表列這個執行率是110年執行率103%111年115112年105可以說執行率算相當的好"},{"start":3034.95,"end":3035.934,"text":"主委認同嗎?"},{"start":3037.781,"end":3057.215,"text":"應該是要鼓勵 謝謝委員支持女力的增強事實上這個也就是說鼓勵女性她如果因為生育或whatever計畫停了幾年以後我們給她一個窗口當然 所以這個執行率主任滿意嗎?103% 115% 105%就相當棒嘛對不對滿意嗎?還想要再增加到110 120%"},{"start":3066.032,"end":3070.094,"text":"主委,我們看下一張表格。但是呢,我們執行率這麼高,這代表著大家都需要,大家都願意來做一個申請。可是我們看到110年、110年、112年,我們整個核定率三成不到。"},{"start":3088.203,"end":3088.243,"text":"OK!"},{"start":3112.425,"end":3136.802,"text":"所以如果說這個需求量是很大的你就不應該核定數到這麼低我不相信他們送來的這個計畫會差到你覺得說核定率沒有辦法再繼續給他們那是不是預算太低所以你沒有辦法去做所以這一點本席覺得真的啦我們有很多的錢我們看到養蚊子館的這個那個有很多錢其實是有浪費的但在這一塊我們竟然鼓勵女性來從事科學跟技術研究"},{"start":3137.503,"end":3161.017,"text":"那是不是我們的預算上面要重新去做考量在執行上面還有核定上面我們要不要新的思維那個謝謝委員這個事實上這畫面如果增加我是贊成的啦我回去再來看看到底是什麼樣的問題那預算我想應該是那核定率為什麼這麼低來我處長來我們都鼓勵他你核定率這麼低20幾%"},{"start":3163.46,"end":3178.633,"text":"因為這個專案的預算目前每年是編列9000萬那是因為預算是一個考量所以核電力的原因就是因為預算不足嘛你也不能核太多嘛對嗎了解這個這樣不對啦這樣本末倒置好不好主委我們盡量來做那那個增加我是贊成"},{"start":3179.847,"end":3180.187,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員"},{"start":3208.902,"end":3210.963,"text":"我們再來請洪孟凱委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":3228.555,"end":3255.103,"text":"吳委員長主委延續剛剛萬委員在請教的就是說到目前為止賴清德總統當選人也沒有跟您聊過有沒有意願再繼續為國家服務那個沒有聊過沒有聊過是好那大家也講了因為之前我們所謂的數位發展部在三讀的時候部長人選有選定唐鳳郭耀煌跟吳政忠也就你本人那"},{"start":3256.603,"end":3282.143,"text":"數位發展部目前大家看起來好像對於唐鳳部長現在不管是藍營委員綠營委員甚至民眾也都覺得說他真的是表現不如預期國外人大家都期待是數位發展部來是當作是數位的領頭羊當作是科技領頭羊但目前看起來沒有那您覺得有沒有機會你會有接下數位發展部部長的可能性這個機會是沒有"},{"start":3282.967,"end":3310.84,"text":"沒有即便是賴清德總統當選人詢問你你也不會答應接受是的你就是想要回學校不是回學校回到社會當頭家所以你就是蓄意已決是不是沒有想說要再繼續為國家服務在這個民間也可以為台灣來服務所以這樣看起來部長主委這個我們也希望你不要只是數饅頭啦"},{"start":3312.4,"end":3339.613,"text":"到520前那這樣就不要是數饅頭的心態不要是代退老兵的心態那本席就來請教你現在昨天你們有看辦一個這個AI生成無限可能的這個產業AI產業高峰論壇那也有講到是說未來百工百業引進生成式的AI帶動產業的創新那你這邊也有提到是說這個台灣有半導體的這個能量跟生成式AI可能未來這是台灣的機會對不對"},{"start":3341.454,"end":3358.361,"text":"但是有人說AI對於電力的需求其實是非常重的甚至馬斯克他也講說恐怕會讓全球從缺晶片變成是缺電請教到目前為止我們台灣還講說下個月有可能電費又要調漲您怎麼看"},{"start":3363.271,"end":3386.447,"text":"生成式AI在耗電是一個事實沒錯但是不同國家不同的產業不同的這個先後的次序臺灣是在做它的一些server包括晶片我們有沒有去評估過之後如果說臺灣要發展生成式AI的這樣的一個方向領域我們預計用電會增加多少"},{"start":3386.687,"end":3409.424,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上這個用電的考量也在那個深層式AI的一些業者他們的考量那未來他的用一定是上到我們的AGE就是AGE端比如說你的筆電就可以用你不會全部都跑到這個超級電腦去弄那個深層式人工智慧所以那個"},{"start":3410.265,"end":3415.548,"text":"應該是大幅下降但是我們現在還是看到的是這深層是AI畢竟大家講是說它的用電還是往上增嘛"},{"start":3435.497,"end":3460.227,"text":"還有就是我們科學園區的部分你也提到是說這個審議會應該會通盤檢討考量但是到目前為止大家也都說不準說到底下個月會漲幅多少的用電那如果說用電成本上升但是又持續有這種缺電的疑慮台灣的能源配比現在還是讓國人沒有辦法放心的話那我們怎麼樣有辦法樂觀的看待就是說我們今年的不管是科學園區的景氣"},{"start":3462.64,"end":3486.448,"text":"我們當然是謹慎以對密切注意但是就是說在這一波深層式AI的起身階段臺灣的半導體的製造因為剛好在後端的製造跟封裝測試這一邊應該是還可以幾年的光景那在這幾年當中我們應該是要有一些對策是沒錯"},{"start":3488.021,"end":3498.347,"text":"主委我想請教那現在有傳出說工業用電可能會漲幅有到15%到20%那你兩天前你也接受媒體訪問是說你相對來講還是覺得說樂觀沒有問題那請教有沒有在這一段時間裡面跟經濟部來做一個"},{"start":3506.561,"end":3526.087,"text":"詢問討論甚至幫科學人去來請命那個如果說一次要漲15%到20%你覺得這樣子廠商業者能夠接受嗎或說吃得消嗎那個在這個經濟部那邊的審議委員會事實上我們也不會去直接去跟審議委員會去做一些要求是沒有辦法反映但是跟部長這邊應該是有"},{"start":3529.949,"end":3556.186,"text":"應該是有溝通什麼意思我們科學園區這邊工會跟經濟部這邊也會有但是我現在講的是說主委你身為這個我們這個國科會的大家長你有沒有幫大家來去做請命或說了解還是說去計算是說因為之前你也講過嘛今年的科學園區景氣表是樂觀那但是現在傳出說如果說漲了電價15%到20%然後又有可能有缺電跳電的疑慮"},{"start":3557.591,"end":3587.083,"text":"但難道你不認為是說你應該主動負起這個責任來去做溝通嗎應該是或說讓至少讓經濟部那邊也知道是說現在這個產業的一個情況我們那個科學園區的工會跟我們裡面的公司事實上跟我們科學園區管理局都有密切溝通的管道如果這個有問題一定會反映來不是來啦主委我現在在請教你重點在於是你本人要不要去做這件事情啦"},{"start":3589.148,"end":3617.577,"text":"報告委員補充說明一下因為其實整個電的穩定供應關係廠商的一個營運那其實整個國際能源價格事實上是有些在做我現在沒有需要你正面宣導我現在講的是說剛剛我們才詢問嘛就是當一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛不要有帶退老兵的心態那如果說你認為說這件事情今年的景氣可以樂觀那是不是應該也要把大家的意見彙整之後然後主動來跟還是你跟經濟部部長很不熟是不是"},{"start":3621.312,"end":3628.12,"text":"很熟很熟所以要不要跟他溝通一下可以啊 這沒問題"},{"start":3630.973,"end":3652.386,"text":"各位我再來請教一下我們現在在討論剛剛有討論AI的部分那有去年其實7月的時候這個鄭文燦副院長就已經有講是說我們台灣有可能在9月會推出AI基本法人工智慧基本法但之後又講說確定難產所以說我們先來做這個深層式AI的參考指引對不對"},{"start":3654.093,"end":3676.364,"text":"本期昨天有拿到我們這個參考指引的部分我先請教我們現在相對來講我們的這個政府機關有沒有哪一個機關現在有從使用深層式AI來做這個執行業務或是提供服務的輔具工具事實上除了就我們了解我們各部會有沒有哪一個部會現在用深層式AI是用得比較好的"},{"start":3677.441,"end":3688.639,"text":"目前應該是我這邊的這個資料是沒有沒有所以各機關部會都還沒有使用生成式AI因為他們沒有跟我報告"},{"start":3690.646,"end":3714.759,"text":"有可能有那我們國科會呢我們有沒有利用深層式AI來做一些資訊的比如說會診還是執行業務那個我跟這個委員報告事實上深層式AI跟AI其實AI我們本來就有在用也就是說我們在一些計畫的proposal的盤點本來就有用AI那深層式AI比較大的去年"},{"start":3715.359,"end":3717.061,"text":"我現在在請教的就是說我們比如說國科會有沒有做生產CI執行業務"},{"start":3734.358,"end":3756.187,"text":"為什麼會這樣請教因為你的指引裡面有提到其中一點因各機關使用生成式AI做執行業務或是提供服務輔助工具時應該適當揭露 對不對那本席就想請教啊到目前為止沒有看到任何一個下面的這個資訊有講是說我這本文件是用生成式AI處理"},{"start":3757.733,"end":3773.879,"text":"所以換言之現在到底大家使用的狀況怎麼樣事實上跟委員報告現在那個我們一個台德就是Trustworth AI Dialog Engine是國科會在做也是幫各個部會各行各業做一個Basic 念繁體中文的對話引擎"},{"start":3775.119,"end":3803.163,"text":"這個是以後要用本身我們自己做的我知道你現在講的是4月有可能會上市的嘛對不對不是上市是公開給對4月有可能公開給民眾來使用嘛不是民眾是不是而是因為那拿去齁各個公司還要去加他的槌子的應用才會比較細緻啦因為那個open AI check GPT那個是主委我們在同一個平行時空對話一下好不好嗯"},{"start":3803.763,"end":3814.096,"text":"本席剛剛我也認為啦生成式AI現在是一個趨勢那也認為是說其實如果說你善用這個工具的話會非常方便好用譬如說本席剛剛在"},{"start":3816.776,"end":3831.274,"text":"我打入人工智慧基本法的好處跟缺點不到10秒鐘他就整理出來了他說好處可以保障使用者的權益促進創新發展規範產業標準跟防止濫用風險但缺點"},{"start":3835.298,"end":3859.915,"text":"創新會受限法律會落後還有監管困難以及權責不對等好那我現在請教我們現在的這個趨勢跟方向也是人工智慧基本法應該要出來嗎是的所以520之前有沒有可能出來在你卸任之前為台灣為我們政府不可能那什麼時候會有這樣的一個計畫立法計畫我們原先預期在年底之前今年年底今年年底"},{"start":3860.475,"end":3889.07,"text":"但那時候你已經不在啦那我們的執政是延續的應該會延續但是我的意思是說那今年年底怎麼保證可以出來你現在的這個立法的方向程序步驟我現在的這個決心是所以你可以現在講出來就是也交代我們同仁今年年底人工智慧基本法草案會出爐送到立院我們可以一起來審理是不是因為本席為什麼會那麼關心就是因為本席也會有"},{"start":3889.73,"end":3890.23,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":3916.135,"end":3944.643,"text":"各位委員報告歐盟那邊是昨天他已經在通過議會嘛歐洲跟美國跟日本英國是不一樣的系統臺灣剛好在中間就是一個是創新另外一個是那我們臺灣以現在的方向會比較是屬於往歐盟這邊來指引還是往美國應該 somewhere between什麼意思要拉的因為我們要保障國家的利益對 主委"},{"start":3946.805,"end":3971.573,"text":"說實在話這是立法院中華民國國會殿堂不是賣弄學術的學術的地方本席從剛開始這個質詢到現在我都是準備那麼多充分的資料就希望可以跟你好好的溝通跟好好的用淺顯易懂的方式讓國人更了解我們現在國科會在做什麼不是有知識分子傲慢"},{"start":3972.853,"end":3984.203,"text":"所以本席只想最後請教你剛剛講歐盟是一個方向美國是一個方向我們的版本會比較屬於哪一個方向應該比較靠近美國日本跟英國這邊"},{"start":3985.635,"end":3987.956,"text":"好,所以就是在今年年底前會有我們政院版本出來是的好,謝謝"},{"start":4017.125,"end":4044.613,"text":"好謝謝紅夢凱委員吳主委請回好我們現在請郭育晴委員質詢邀請主委先講一下我人真好欸我本來應該是排第7個我已經是第二次跟羅廷瑋換順序然後因為他要去開記者會可能就是講一下執政黨那個BNT的事情然後我跟他換順序"},{"start":4045.433,"end":4070.299,"text":"早安早安主委早我想問一下就是主委其實剛剛在您的報告當中我們有看到就是希望在我們的科技人才這個部分其實不要斷層我們要向下扎根那不管是大學也好高中也好國中也好或者是小學也好那我想在今年其實屏東它有一所就是算是第一所這個"},{"start":4072.419,"end":4099.495,"text":"國立評科實驗高級中等學校那他在今年2月他會開始招生然後8月可能就要開始正式的這個教學了但是因為我們知道他其實跟原本他現在其實可能預計用國小的部分的校舍還是用林國小那變成林國小他們也確定可能就是要停收因為可能少子化的關係那這個部分我不曉得主委您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":4100.876,"end":4121.749,"text":"蘇局長有跟我報告事實上他原來學生應該新的學校會把他納進來因為之前他們有舉辦公聽會所以其實也有很多的家長也希望說因為他們的等於說他們的聲援其實是很重疊的地區也是很重疊的那就是他們也希望說將來可能二年級到六年級"},{"start":4124.23,"end":4124.53,"text":"是是是,好"},{"start":4141.636,"end":4159.932,"text":"我很高興有聽到這個聲音啦因為目前是還沒有看到最新的一個狀況那如果就是主委這邊其實我們也協同我們自己本國科會可能跟屏東縣的這個教育處他們來做一個銜接是沒問題我們完全接收原來的學生是是是好那先替這79個小孩謝謝好"},{"start":4163.315,"end":4178.343,"text":"接下來其實我想要問的就是我們的泰特其實剛剛有特別提到其實他非常不容易應該這麼講因為其實有CHAT GPT就是台版的CHAT GPT支撐所以其實我們大概知道他預計在2024年4月底會確定結案對不對應該是這麼說"},{"start":4185.668,"end":4208.082,"text":"另外我們知道整個研發團隊在2023年就是去年的6月其實已經有第一階段的一個成果的展現了那接著下來可能在去年的9月跟10月其實也開放所有的應該是說我們的中央跟地方政府來使用他們的7B的移域功能那目前他們使用的狀況大概是如何?"},{"start":4210.263,"end":4237.946,"text":"我順便藉這個機會跟委員報告事實上去年年初大家全世界被那個checkGPT嚇了一跳那我們在台灣也是覺得說如果沒有繁體中文版這個以後會沒完沒了所以我們去年3月就開始一年的計畫很緊急的那也剛好就是台灣有一些教授團隊事實上跟他的一些學生我們組出來以後就用那個Meta的那個Lama"},{"start":4238.8,"end":4239.6,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":4263.735,"end":4264.996,"text":"但是目前我們這個台德已經可以7B的740億參數的"},{"start":4280.988,"end":4295.247,"text":"已經可以幫你翻譯中方英文中那還有一些就是可以把你的會議的摘要弄出來但是你要問他所有任何的問題他答案還不一定會"},{"start":4296.502,"end":4299.023,"text":"所以現在其實在就是不管是中央或者是地方那還有我們包含企業"},{"start":4313.548,"end":4314.009,"text":"政府這邊也有?"},{"start":4333.582,"end":4358.515,"text":"這個計劃會到今年的4月4月4月之後會再繼續再做這方面的一個延伸嗎因為全世界在這個深層式AI這邊真的是剛開始那去年我們就緊急把它啟動以後那事實上我最近也在決定說再延一年然後再接到114年的4年的計劃"},{"start":4359.395,"end":4385.215,"text":"那有機會可以讓一般的民眾或者是讓民間甚至於學校可以用得到嗎?那個就是說因為這個是像美國那個都是私人的那你要讓民間的時候你背後必須要有一個很大的電腦在那邊但是我們把訓練完以後我其實早上有講就把弄到一些資料弄到我們以後PC可以用"},{"start":4386.016,"end":4387.658,"text":"所以大概預期大概要多久之後其實可以比較更普及"},{"start":4404.668,"end":4428.322,"text":"應該是其實我們目前有一個7B就70億的參數是它所有的訓練資料都是有經過比如公家的資料沒有那個制裁權的問題的那13B有一些資料就是130億的參數那個有一些資料我們還在取得認證13B那個就跟現在CHAT GPT的3.5"},{"start":4430.615,"end":4431.015,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":4451.941,"end":4467.834,"text":"我們也希望趕快能夠盡快讓大家可以看到這方面的成果再來因為其實最近其實大家都很關心因為我們台海的這個亞太的這個地區其實說真的台海的安全其實還是大家最關切的一個問題"},{"start":4469.695,"end":4474.537,"text":"我不曉得主委這邊知不知道其實在惡霧戰爭的時候其實為什麼他們在大量的所有的這個應該是說他們的設施或者他們的建設被摧毀的時候其實他們還能夠繼續保持的跟外界的一個通訊跟聯絡那這個部分其實還蠻重要的就是所謂的低軌的衛星那我們其實也在發展這個部分的一個應該算是科技對不對"},{"start":4495.802,"end":4513.237,"text":"當然其實它是除了防災緊急的一個通訊的部分其實是佔有非常重要的地位那一旦有任何的狀況或危險其實我們也樂見我們自己本身有所謂的自製的低軌的衛星但是其實這個低軌的衛星其實我們知道它其實要發射它需要有基地台"},{"start":4515.538,"end":4536.967,"text":"我們大家都知道越靠所謂的赤道就越難只能在東半部其實整個篩選下來就只剩下花東跟屏東這三個地區但是這三個地區其實又跟我們的當地的可能跟原住民他們的一些應該是說他們的基本法其實是你要舉辦公聽會"},{"start":4538.868,"end":4540.989,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒的確這個第一軌通訊衛星或者是中軌高軌都是對台灣蠻重要因為台灣是海島國家"},{"start":4558.1,"end":4586.223,"text":"我們有在布局就是太空中心在這個通訊衛星這邊我們有自己投入那另外那個也可以帶動台灣的電子產業往太空的產業這邊來走那另外一個就是發射場地的確委員說的沒錯在東部然後比較靠近赤道那個射上去以後會比較省力那基本上又考慮到這個重疊海域的話事實上真正可以有的就是屏東跟台東"},{"start":4587.901,"end":4598.956,"text":"我們看到一個時間表是2026但是我剛剛有說如果要舉辦公聽會或者是說我們真的要符合因為這個需要一段很長的溝通的一個時間那2026真的來得及嗎"},{"start":4602.24,"end":4622.611,"text":"我們盡量但是前面的溝通還是要做啦事實上我們那個那個發射場地的選址的委員會我們剛好在應該2月已經開過也就是說相關的條件先確定以後再來對外公告那應該是在年底之前我們希望可以把這個場址確定下來"},{"start":4623.311,"end":4645.219,"text":"所以目前也持續都在做這方面的一個溝通對那跟原基法的第21條跟當地溝通都有在做這個是的確蠻重要的對因為其實這個對我們來講其實不管是國防或者在我們的科技的一個產業的部分其實我們不希望看到就是像去年其實我們的這個台馬的電纜斷電的這樣子的一個狀況就感覺很像我們離島變成一個孤島了"},{"start":4649.581,"end":4672.225,"text":"所以這個帝國衛星我想這勢必勢在可行我們也樂見趕快我跟委員報告就是那個衛星發射上去一剛開始可能會委託其他國家的發射因為我們那個基地包括我們火箭自己做目前的規劃是到2030可以自己做自己的火箭跟然後在我們的場地發射"},{"start":4673.105,"end":4688.779,"text":"但是之前我們可以委託其他國家來幫忙好 那我們就持續努力 拭目以待謝謝 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝郭玉琴委員好 我們再來請吳佩儀委員質詢好 有請國會主委有請吳主委"},{"start":4703.626,"end":4725.374,"text":"委員長主委好很高興在你們的業務報告裡面我們有看到我們針對科研的女性人才流失的問題國科會這幾年都有一些相關的措施來進行補救那剛剛在前面委員的諮詢我也有聽到我們針對這個女性的科研人才當她因為生育的條件"},{"start":4726.654,"end":4746.363,"text":"中間必須要中立這個研究的生涯讓他如何能夠回來有一個暖身的期間能夠重回我們科研的行列我們也有一個女性科研人才補助的計畫那我想要先請教主委在你們報告裡面有提到我們女性科研人才流失"},{"start":4747.383,"end":4766.718,"text":"這個流失目前的情況是如何因為流失意思應該是說我們是不是現在女性科研人才的數量甚至比前幾年數量來的少那是目前的現象是怎麼樣有沒有相關的數字以及是什麼樣的原因造成這樣的情況"},{"start":4767.919,"end":4783.061,"text":"應該不是說最近幾年流失因為流失應該是一個長久的狀態那我們4年前用這個計畫把它一些再找回來那個應該是我們找的力道事實上我們是可以持續加強"},{"start":4784.082,"end":4803.313,"text":"我們現在一個國家總體的統計我們的博士的人數這個兩性的男性跟女性的人數的統計女性的博士人才我們最高的時候99年曾經是近五成那我們現在是來到了兩成也就是我們流失的幅度是近三成"},{"start":4804.594,"end":4817.927,"text":"當中當然有很多是因為女性正好是我們這一個科學人才的養成我想主委一定非常的清楚養成不易需要一個很長的時間那正好就到30 40歲這個年紀在生理的條件之下正好也有可能遇到必須要生產的時間尤其我們的科學"},{"start":4826.516,"end":4827.217,"text":"我非常支持我們國科會有這些相關的計畫"},{"start":4842.153,"end":4863.481,"text":"我看了我們這幾年的來申請跟合訂的人數事實上剛剛在前面的質詢裡面也有討論到主委你也認為我們每一年補助女性從事科學及技術研究專案的這個計畫我們能夠來合訂的人數也就是我們可以來支持她重回科研行列這個人數你也認為可以再增加是嗎"},{"start":4864.745,"end":4891.775,"text":"應該可以這個如果是有的話我們應該是既然已經有下滑那我們這幾年的努力第一階段第二階段我想我們可以來精進是就以我們這幾年陸續來申請的案件數來說至少就我們所知就至少每年有近500位的女性科研人才他們已經是經過長時間培訓的這些人才他們是希望可以回到研究的行列的"},{"start":4892.355,"end":4912.535,"text":"那這個來申請的件數只是至少我相信潛在數量一定有更多所以我很肯定主委剛剛也認為應該要增加那我們現在應該還在編列預算的時間明年的預算也尚未核定所以我們能不能夠在今年提出來的預算就來增加這個計畫未來我們能夠支持的人數"},{"start":4913.436,"end":4921.219,"text":"我們來這個調整一下應該這個應該是可以我們希望明年的預算這個送進來省的時候我們就可以看到這個計畫的人數的增加接下來也是要跟主委討論的是仍然是性品除了我們要支持人才的研究他的這個生產條件以外我們整體環境的性品友善也是相當的重要去年在台灣各個領域都發生了me too的事件"},{"start":4940.806,"end":4962.377,"text":"也因此促成了不管是政府部門還是民間的單位就自己單位內部的性平事件處理程序都進行了一些修改我們甚至去修訂了性平三法那我有注意到我們的政府部會文化部也就呢這個文化部過去的補助倘若這個補助的對象他有發生經過調查明確確實的性平事件的加害人假設他是"},{"start":4970.461,"end":4993.338,"text":"在文化部修改了它的要點就它過去曾經的補助來進行視情節的輕重來進行撤銷補助那我們國科會有沒有過相關的討論就是就我們國科會自己的性平事件的申訴及懲戒要點我們有沒有過相關的討論"},{"start":4996.308,"end":5009.324,"text":"討論是有,但是那個案件我目前是還沒有接到這樣的懲罰。那我們有修一些規定,因為的確這個性品應該是蠻重要,我也蠻重視。"},{"start":5011.324,"end":5040.203,"text":"主委我是認為我們應該你們可以去參考這個文化部他們針對這個要點裡面的修訂當然是強調一定是要經過調查已經是有我們出場說我們有參考文化部我們有在參考所以我們的這個性評的申訴及呈現要點目前已經修改了是我們在去年11月已經修改我們的作業規定就是計劃的主持人如果有違反性評那也是事情且慶祝我們會進行相關的懲處"},{"start":5042.605,"end":5061.051,"text":"我希望能夠來把資料提供給我們我認為這是非常的重要因為整體的性平環境也是支持科學人才能夠繼續的走下去很重要的一個基礎再來要跟主委關心的是也是國人非常關心的是我們有精創台灣方案"},{"start":5062.211,"end":5068.453,"text":"這個計劃是10年計劃我們預計要投入3000億的經費來執行其中呢我們有一個計劃是我們希望能夠透過我們的半導體的學院來進行海外的培訓中心的設立那目前呢有沒有已經已經有洽談中的或是已經預計可能會在哪邊來成立我們第一所的海外技術中心"},{"start":5088.637,"end":5114.887,"text":"這個緣起當然就是因為台灣最近半導體全世界非常這個矚目那中東歐幾國包括德國法國我在前兩年去的時候他們相關部會的部長也都蠻期待那我們也是覺得說這個應該是台灣一個機會也就是說我們可以去佈局全球那趁這個台灣半導體非常強的時候那有一些歐洲有一些中小型國家"},{"start":5115.647,"end":5115.808,"text":"議員吳政忠"},{"start":5135.111,"end":5151.766,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":5152.313,"end":5157.717,"text":"最近可能就會有第一案的這個出現是消息的出現那我們有沒有預計大約要成立幾個海外的培訓中心我們今年是一個到兩個今年一至兩個我想這個計畫會非常的重要所以我們也非常的期待"},{"start":5172.267,"end":5188.978,"text":"接下來要跟主委關心的是我們除了高階的科研人才以外國科會針對科學知識科普往下扎根也是有相關的計畫也很支持其中我有注意到是我們跟台鐵有合作科普列車這個計畫我覺得非常的成功因為我們是邀請了"},{"start":5193.061,"end":5193.742,"text":"已經差不多七八年了"},{"start":5211.457,"end":5224.786,"text":"那那個地點他是環繞台灣現在有30個車站那除了中小學學生以外還有這個企業也來一起參與所以我想這個是一個蠻這個弧度蠻大的"},{"start":5227.208,"end":5250.289,"text":"那未來我想我知道很多這個委員都有希望說他那個站也要去我們盡量來讓更多的這個地方可以參與就是執行的成效大家都覺得很好大家也都很希望說這個列車可以走進更多的地方所以我們也很支持但也希望這個計畫有機會可以來擴增像我知道是我們在台北"},{"start":5250.709,"end":5254.292,"text":"有從台北車站出發然後有到板橋車站新北市板橋車站那這個當中呢其實就會經過我的選期萬華火車站我們也非常希望有一天這個科普列車有機會可以來開進萬華最後要跟主委關心的是國內也非常關心我們的太空中心"},{"start":5269.662,"end":5277.427,"text":"太空中心是蔡英文總統也非常的重視那去年底的時候我看到說我們針對國家太空科技發展的長程計畫三期去年小英總統曾經說過要來加碼"},{"start":5285.912,"end":5310.423,"text":"這個預算要來加碼增加至超過400億那吳主委您去年底也說過所以呢要來進行對這個太空三級計畫進行修正以及優化其中就是要來加入我們的低軌通訊衛星目前我們針對這個預算的增加以及這個時間的延長有沒有已經有一個初步的版本了有沒有預計什麼時候要來拍板"},{"start":5312.164,"end":5334.595,"text":"會儘快,事實上我們太空三期是201819那時候訂的,那個時候還沒有低軌通訊衛星,台灣以前從來也沒有做過通訊衛星,那個增加預算應該通訊衛星是一個大宗,另外一個就是我們的火箭發射基地跟火箭的研發,以前也不能做,現在應該是可以來進行。"},{"start":5336.044,"end":5336.464,"text":"接下來請葉元池委員質詢"},{"start":5376.095,"end":5376.778,"text":"有請主委"},{"start":5384.33,"end":5403.938,"text":"業務委員早早各位一開始的時候我先有接受一個選民的陳情是一個臺大的博士生所以先就這個部分先看看我覺得有沒有補救的方法就是去年9月12號的時候當時國科會有開一個記者會公佈了國家科學及"},{"start":5404.878,"end":5421.229,"text":"技術委員會博士生研究獎學金的試辦方案這個方案就我了解是2018年就有了但當時是300個名額是透過學校來分配名額但去年9月我不知道為什麼去年9月是什麼背景因為去年剛好是選舉年"},{"start":5422.67,"end":5438.242,"text":"有增加名額嘛增加了有一個400個名額是讓學生自己去申請嘛對吧應該沒有錯吧然後一個月是一萬塊嘛然後是四年對不對一個月四萬塊啦然後四年嘛所以這個政策實際上蠻好的"},{"start":5439.463,"end":5451.054,"text":"所以很多博士生認為說這個對他們就學的時候無後顧之憂是非常期待可是這個辦法裡面有一個非常奇怪的地方就是9月12日開記者會然後隨即就讓他們來申請是在9月15日到10月16日這個月來申請"},{"start":5459.802,"end":5465.548,"text":"只有一個月的時間來申請只有一個月的時間來申請那這裡面呢就衍生出幾個問題好幾個問題第一個問題呢112年9月15就去年9月15到10月16這段期間實際上很多"},{"start":5478.29,"end":5482.912,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5495.856,"end":5511.35,"text":"差不多3月3月的時候他12月28號才公佈簡章今年3月才開始受理所以你在這些學校都還沒有確定怎麼招生情況之下在前一年的9月而且只有一個月的時間讓他們"},{"start":5514.132,"end":5528.409,"text":"來申請這個獎學金其實這個時間上是蠻奇怪的不知道主委你為什麼當初會訂這個時間應該是因為當初就是我們原來有300名給各個學校我現在不是討論300名我現在討論是另外那400名"},{"start":5531.092,"end":5554.033,"text":"300名加300我們把它增加到600名因為400名是去針對國家的重點政策方向來去call這些學生不過當初的用意是希望說我們念完碩士以後他來考博士班的學生所以你要提早去讓這個已經畢業的學生來有意願來報考博士班"},{"start":5555.574,"end":5568.964,"text":"主委利益良善我們就聚焦在那400名因為本來的300名擴張到600名這部分我們就不討論我現在討論是新增的400名就是可以讓學生自己去申請這400名那這400名第一個我覺得時間"},{"start":5570.365,"end":5599.261,"text":"很奇怪因為他只有一個月時間受理而且很多考生在那時候他並不知道自己要讀博士班所以你的利益良善可是在執行上非常的遭受到大家的質疑第二個我先一次問完然後你們一次解釋第二個問題就是說現在有的考生他們在因為時間很短9月中到10月中這個時間可以申請他先去申請了很多是博士班一年級的在職學生去申請不知道主委知不知道"},{"start":5601.273,"end":5608.246,"text":"聽說有人來反映你知道為什麼會這樣嗎?因為博士班一年級的學生他們一開始以為說這個獎金他拿得到"},{"start":5609.87,"end":5631.626,"text":"學校老師跟他說你拿不到因為那是對未來的考生那他們就想說那我先取得資格我在9月的時候我先去申請我取得資格之後我今年我再想辦法隨便報考一個學校我取得了入學許可之後然後加上他9月多拿到那個資格他就可以來領這一個月4萬塊的獎學金那這會造成什麼問題呢這會造成的問題就是"},{"start":5634.687,"end":5662.08,"text":"他會佔名額嘛 對不對第一個他原本是博一的學生那這個名額就浪費了嘛第二個他跑去再考一次那對於其他考生也不公平嘛所以我的意思是說你們當時這個獎學金利益良善可是制度的設計會產生我剛剛講的弊端了第三個問題就是宣傳實在是很不夠因為我那個考生跟我那個博士班一年級的"},{"start":5662.74,"end":5687.031,"text":"他跟我澄清的時候我問他說你怎麼知道這個事他說學校老師講的學校老師只能針對在學的學生講可是其他的外面的考生根本不知道這個東西那我特別去上網查了一下是有看到你們有開記者會但是記者會就是幾個即時新聞導致於我後來我去問了很多大學的老師包括教碩士班的老師他們都不知道這個東西"},{"start":5688.525,"end":5704.182,"text":"換句話說你這個獎學金只有給那些巷子內的人申請嘛就是9月12號公佈9月15來申請有人知道或是消息比較靈通或國科會有配合的人他可以來申請其他所有一般大專院校碩士生都不知道"},{"start":5704.946,"end":5731.164,"text":"我認為是這樣,因為我也不想要找主委的麻煩我們現在又亡羊補牢能不能就是說針對我覺得那個名額是不是可以開放給就是在學的就是博士班學生一起來申請否則的話我跟你講一個狀況真的你到時候到時候我們反正主委以後還會再來一定會產生一個狀況就是一堆現在博士班一年級的學生"},{"start":5732.746,"end":5753.55,"text":"為了要拿這個獎學金他又再去讀另外一個博士班的一年級一定會出現這個狀況你相不相信主任有聽說嘛對嘛但是不鼓勵這樣當然不鼓勵啊問題是因為你的制度的漏洞產生這個狀況嘛所以我認為說大家應該要亡羊補牢啦是不是可以針對我剛剛講的問題想一個解決的方法好不好來這個細節我想處長應該也有討論"},{"start":5758.271,"end":5786.697,"text":"包括有關委員您關心的問題我先簡單的說明第一個呢就是我們在辦這個獎學基金的甄選的時候我們有辦一系列的座談會也在座談會裡面得知從112年的10月開始就有學校開始進行推增因為要配合學校的作業時程所以我們會在9月的時候就開始來那個收監這是一個最主要的一個原因另外有關廣宣方面我們除了給學校行文之外我們也有辦一系列的座談會"},{"start":5787.791,"end":5790.778,"text":"就不夠阿那你可不可以講一下你們辦的幾場總共辦幾場作案會"},{"start":5793.831,"end":5794.431,"text":"我個人的建議是說"},{"start":5823.275,"end":5844.555,"text":"到時候一定會出現很多人現在申請到資格但是最後沒有來領或者是說他跑去取得另外一個博弈的身份然後造成現在的很多缺額狀況我覺得一定會出現我們把這動不起來我建議說是不是可以開放給博弈生讓他們來申請好不好那你可不可以給我一個報告好不好就是針對我剛剛講的問題那什麼時候可以給我"},{"start":5848.529,"end":5852.691,"text":"第二個接下來就是剛剛也有委員問到我個人也是蠻關心的就是那個太空三級計畫因為我記得這個計畫當初在"},{"start":5874.663,"end":5901.18,"text":"政府是敲鑼打鼓在宣布當時的行政院長蘇貞昌為了推廣自己的政績說他衝衝衝100天第一個計畫就是簽署太空計畫那現在這10年2019開始10年是有400億 對不對可是400億裡面我覺得最重要的就是國家發射廠的選址原來是250億現在變400億 對不對不是 增加400億增加400億 所以是650億所以大家很重視這件事情在編這麼多預算"},{"start":5902.921,"end":5925.511,"text":"可是我發現就是說它的進度比較緩慢因為去年我記得草野也是在教文委員會啦就是希望說國科會可以針對太空火箭國家火箭發射戰的選址有一個定案嘛去年的時候可是去年國科會跟太空中心好像就不同調太空中心一開始對外講說好像已經有一個"},{"start":5926.874,"end":5944.548,"text":"有一個場址的選擇了可是國科會馬上就說沒這回事所以太空中心很怕啦你可以看我紅色圈起來的部分他說我們都是在國科會指導下啦還沒進行實質討論所以這個事情到底是國科會在負責還是太空中心在負責所以他說這個不是你們發的新聞稿嗎軍需在國科會指導下"},{"start":5952.87,"end":5964.771,"text":"所以這個是國科會在負責還是太空中心在負責這是你們自己太空中心發的信用稿欸不是不是那個吼因為太空中心是國科下面一個對嘛對嘛所以所以是太空中心在決定嗎"},{"start":5966.004,"end":5994.548,"text":"不是社科科會決定那我就問主委因為目前進度緩慢是因為你看在111年的8月已經有一個作業審查的會議要點了嘛對不對111年到現在也快一年半了嘛然後去年的時候立法院有要求你們說在去年底就應該要那個長子要先確定嘛對吧那個長子確定必須要有一些程序那現在預算上去年也有九千九千七百多萬嘛"},{"start":5995.356,"end":6018.488,"text":"那9700多萬是用在哪裡?因為長子選址的部分現在是算是好像沒有進展嘛那所以9700多萬是用在哪?其實一直都在進行當中因為包含如果要就是評估這些相關的一些指標都需要去做相關的這些跨部會的協商還有跟專家學者來進行討論"},{"start":6020.861,"end":6027.67,"text":"這個是最後一點時間這個是你們二月的會議記錄嘛都沒有內容給我們的資料好像"},{"start":6029.043,"end":6056.749,"text":"很害怕一樣就全部都是寫得非常的簡單這為什麼不能夠因為這個預算這麼多今年編的兩億多然後立委跟你調資料然後你給這種說我們已經在選址了這有寫跟沒給一樣那個選址因為事實上以前大家都不喜歡這個發射場現在好像也蠻多地方在爭取哪些地方在爭取因為其實可以有的就屏東跟台東所以屏東跟台東現在在爭取對不對"},{"start":6058.235,"end":6084.254,"text":"應該是有意願的那後來怎麼決定這兩個要選哪一個那這是有一些專業的考量就是說你要靠近赤道whatever然後你要場地旁邊的交通還有一些環境未來的擴張性都是我們考量的所以二月會議到底討論什麼我們就是把一些審查的條件我們外面的專家委員來確定要哪些是審查的條件程序各自"},{"start":6089.106,"end":6109.083,"text":"二月六日開會主要的目的是要把這個選址的程序法定程序定下來第二點是要挑這個選址需要怎樣的物理條件比如說交通地點要多偏遠或者是不是要靠太平洋種種這些條件有這些以後我們才依法一步一步才往下推"},{"start":6109.904,"end":6110.885,"text":"我們再請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":6140.653,"end":6140.733,"text":"吳主委"},{"start":6149.901,"end":6174.475,"text":"主委您好,就是說因為其實國科會這幾年在做的事情都是在帶動整個台灣的產業競爭然後來做我們更多的產業的提升讓我們可以保持這個世界的競爭力那我在這邊非常的感謝那我其實我自己是非常關注國科會的一些相關研究那最主要的就是我自己的小孩是非常非常喜歡這個領域所以今天的問題呢我大概就問一下有關於核心技術還有CHECK、GBT以及我小孩非常關注的一個叫做兒少科普的部分"},{"start":6175.355,"end":6202.563,"text":"還有這個太空中心的發展所以我們接下來先來講這個國家的關鍵技術就是說在去年的時候我們有公告22項國家的核心關鍵技術對那這個領域呢就是大概在涵蓋了這個國防農業半導體太空以及資通安全那接下來就是說我們在因為在台灣的IC產業其實製造技術是領先全球那我們在這個台灣的市佔率呢"},{"start":6203.863,"end":6226.334,"text":"也達到了599那14耐名以下的在全球的市佔率更是高達70%所以我是非常認同我們要去保護我們國家的核心競爭力那我也想請教就是說因為新聞有講今年3月或4月的時候還會有第二波這個核心關鍵技術的這個管制清單會出來所以我想要知道說大概在什麼時候會出來那這些相關的審議會已經召開了嗎那會含劃哪些領域"},{"start":6229.696,"end":6252.373,"text":"是的那個我們去年12月5號公布以後我們說3個月會做滾動修正對沒錯那事實上部會他們已經盤查就是說針對我們公布的5個大領域事實上部會應該是沒有新的修正但是我們也在看看到他有那個技術以後他還要去找一些"},{"start":6253.823,"end":6254.063,"text":"執行計劃及執行人。"},{"start":6264.311,"end":6285.066,"text":"目前是沒有新的提出來那我們有一個top-down的是說我們有在看有一些技術也必須要再進來比如說一些生醫生技的一些技術對我了解那我想要知道說這個進度還是在因為3月已經過了一半嘛所以大概是在4月嗎4月會提供給大家讓大家知道有哪些是關鍵核心技術嗎"},{"start":6286.427,"end":6300.088,"text":"我們那個技術出來以後我們還有一個核心關鍵技術的辦公室要再去看跟外面的一些相對應的所以聽起來是時程會再延後嗎沒有3月沒有延後"},{"start":6301.69,"end":6316.418,"text":"公佈的時間是什麼時候?跟我原報告一下第一批的部分剛剛我們主委有提到當時在講說三個月要滾動檢討求證是針對這22項會公佈了之後再去整體又各界去溝通看有沒有需要再進一步去做滾動檢討的"},{"start":6319.179,"end":6323.803,"text":"目前沒有要去做調整的部分那時候講3個月指的是這件事情那第二波的部分因為依照規定我們每年至少要開一次國家選議會所以現在整體各部會就是在持續的盤點看看還有哪些需要的技術在納進來大概就跟委員報告"},{"start":6337.554,"end":6364.231,"text":"好那這個部分的話我想我們可能也是要加速啦因為畢竟是核心關鍵技術啦那再來就是說那個領域如果有些新增的話可能也再提供給我們辦公室好不好好那再來第二個部分是想要講這個兒少科普的問題就是說其實因為STEM這個領域其實是未來的世代了是非常重要的一件事情但是我們其實這個領域男性是比較多的女性是比較少的孔子張表我們可以看到大概只有四分之一的女性是在這個領域"},{"start":6366.284,"end":6390.693,"text":"我們其實有辦了很多的兒少科普活動但是我看到就是我們的人數像以國際女科學節科學日它的人數是越來越少那我想要先請教第一個問題是說我們的參與人次的計算評估標準110年是用觸及11年跟112年都是用觀看次數那這個衡量標準是不一樣的所以事後的review其實是很難去了解到底影響性是什麼"},{"start":6391.973,"end":6405.949,"text":"所以這個部分是不是未來可以用同一個評估基礎讓我們比較了解知道說這個真實的狀況是什麼我倒沒有注意到這個有改變我們看處長有沒有注意到"},{"start":6409.944,"end":6425.682,"text":"我們來把它一致化這樣才會有一個曲線出來沒錯沒錯沒錯謝謝謝謝那第二個部分就是說因為我看這個就算是我們從111年相比我們的實際的觀看人次也是下降的然後我們的整體就像那個"},{"start":6428.864,"end":6444.509,"text":"一整年我看了一下第一個是觀察人數逐年下降第二個是我們其實花了大概七千多萬去做這些科普的活動可是我們的整體的人次大概只有到三萬多人那這樣子的預算分配投資報酬率似乎有點低欸"},{"start":6445.689,"end":6465.342,"text":"我跟委員報告因為它這樣的分類因為是單一個活動應該是把整個女性兒少科普活動加起來那個人次才會比較正確那現在你們有人次嗎這些女性跟兒少科普活動你們現在有人次嗎"},{"start":6465.822,"end":6489.807,"text":"包括委員我們對於每個專案我們有統計的人數所有的專案合起來這個我們還沒有這樣子的數字那這些詳細的數字可不可以提到我們辦公室讓我們去了解因為我想要說的是說因為觀看這個次數的話可能也許現在沒有正確的數字是比較有點失準但是以科教那種國際台灣科學日他們一年是有50萬人次所以我覺得這個是我們可以來看數字之後再做一些詳細的討論"},{"start":6491.187,"end":6518.866,"text":"接下來就是說我們現在雖然做的很多活動是針對女高中生那個科學日是對女高中生但是我想要問的第一個問題是說到底我們因為在選組高中就已經做不同的選擇了就已經是社會組跟自然組了如果我們想要爭取更多的STEM人才我們是不是應該要再往下提讓他到國中小就開始啟發他這個興趣我們才有可能未來鼓勵女性往這個方向去前進我們可不可以做這樣子的規劃"},{"start":6520.668,"end":6540.669,"text":"謝謝 這個完全正確 我想我們朝這個方向來努力應該是很小就要來謝謝喔 那再來就是說第二個問題延伸的是我們這些人次上面我們有沒有去針對於小孩的意見回饋就是說他看完這個展之後他有沒有什麼樣的回饋 他覺得太深或太淺他覺得要怎麼調整 我們沒有收集相關的意見呢來"},{"start":6543.747,"end":6571.2,"text":"報告委員事實上我們都有在做問卷調查例如說那個場域開放科普列車等等我指的是針對於兒少對這些活動其實都是針對高中國中國小所以也都涵蓋在兒少的範圍但是聽起來是量化有質化的研究去了解他們到底覺得這個內容怎麼樣因為我們才能夠去做更精進的修正嘛因為我們的目標是他那是不是有相關的質化研究有因為他們的問卷裡面他們都有一些回饋的意見"},{"start":6572.635,"end":6590.789,"text":"所以都有相對應的修正是嗎?委員的這個提醒應該蠻重要就是說如果針對那個當事人就是小朋友他的回應會比較接近正式那這個我們來努力看看能不能找一些小朋友來"},{"start":6592.168,"end":6618.125,"text":"我想如果現在有做一些意見回饋的話我也想要了解一下這些他們所提的意見那我們的修正計畫我們應對的計畫是什麼這個會議可以提資料到我們辦公室因為既然已經有了嘛那再來下一個問題就是有關於CHAT GPT那這個CHAT GPT我想我就直接講幾個重點就是說我們因為CHAT GPT需要非常不是CHAT GPT我們的台達計畫其實是非常需要大量的資料那我們現在有足夠的資料來去訓練我們這個這個大型的語言模組嗎"},{"start":6619.486,"end":6646.74,"text":"我們目前就是因為那個也蠻時間蠻趕的只有一年第一個那個7B的模型就是政府公部門的一些資料包括中央社的一些新聞whatever也就是有版權的我們就把它先訓練好那我想問一下它有一個一致的標準嗎因為政府的資料其實也是非標準各自自己上傳各自自己的資料可能標準是不一的那這樣子好用嗎"},{"start":6647.92,"end":6664.9,"text":"我們盡量去用,當然如果他沒有這個電子格式化就不能用目前應該是有,TB那個模型訓練出來是可以讓業界或者是政府單位來當作初步的一個Basic Engine"},{"start":6665.393,"end":6682.281,"text":"所以因為剛剛之前有提到就是說4月會去釋出一個7B的可商用版本那第一個就是說這個時程有改變嗎?沒有變那第二個就是說因為其實CheckGPT也在做這件事情那我們如何跟CheckGPT做競爭呢?我們如何吸引企業來使用?"},{"start":6682.961,"end":6710.58,"text":"我們事實上企業一定會用我們因為我們是用版地中文然後他的一些理解是臺灣的culture那企業based on這個東西他就會發展他比如說銀行業他就會更貼近臺灣的一些生活好那我想這東西我們最後就來持續的追蹤使用的狀況那再來第三個最後一個問題這個領域的最後一個問題就是說政府提倡要百工百業用AI對不對那我們在哪一個產業是比較有競爭力的"},{"start":6714.119,"end":6739.892,"text":"來一個產業對我們台灣我們因為我想可能在半導體或是醫療產業是相對有競爭力的那政府會怎麼樣來協助他們嗎會有哪些協助的計畫我想半導體產業本來就有競爭力對那其他的像我們的精準醫療對健康機械whatever這個都是一些所謂我們5加2產業創新裡面的一些重點那這個我們儘量"},{"start":6741.713,"end":6743.233,"text":"去年Meta已經發表了70倍"},{"start":6773.302,"end":6797.996,"text":"70B的這個版本那我們接下來也有規劃一個70B的我們現在正在開發嘛對不對正在開發參數量那個是Based on Meta的Lama2然後它有進階我們再拿來去教中文好那我理解了那個必須要用非常大的超級電腦"},{"start":6798.956,"end":6826.254,"text":"我懂接下來就是要講超級電腦齁因為超級電腦在世界上面大家競爭非常快速嘛對不對我們在2018年的時候是20名可是我們到2023年已經掉到86名相對我們鄰近的韓國在前50名就已經有3台所以我想要知道說我們今年是有預計要完成16PF嘛對不對這是今年一定會完成嗎今年我那個國運院我們主任說今年會完成一定會完成齁那預計300PF因為世界其實已經"},{"start":6829.176,"end":6849.62,"text":"我跟委員報告以臺灣的尺寸不可能去跟他競爭那麼大的但是我們運用我們的頭腦跟外面的結合那事實上我們在金創臺灣計畫裡面有應該是未來五年計畫會到是200到300PF"},{"start":6852.961,"end":6858.565,"text":"我們目前的規劃是把它拉得比較長期一點因為這樣的話我們會跟上每個世代的最新的GPU"},{"start":6871.015,"end":6894.36,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":6894.568,"end":6909.623,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員吳主委請回要請羅廷偉委員諮詢之前先宣告一下等一下本席諮詢完我們來休息五分鐘好 我們請羅廷偉委員 謝謝好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委有請吳主委"},{"start":6923.034,"end":6936.639,"text":"主委好主委先謝謝你上次這麼有心分享你的理念還有實際的一些業務那主委我想你也是一個享譽國際的一個學者我想請問你對於當前的教育應該關注什麼樣的一個方向有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":6939.397,"end":6966.742,"text":"我還沒有當這個教育部長沒關係這樣子我跟您報告因為跟國會一定會有關係才會詢問這樣子的問題那我想回答他的共同創辦人執行長黃仁勛先生在2024的世界政府峰會上他有講過計算機的時代已經過去下一個黃金賽道是生命科學如果大學能夠重選的話他建議選生命科學而不是電腦科學你怎麼看待這句話這個"},{"start":6968.662,"end":6983.752,"text":"是對也是錯啦因為他是站在美國的角度來看那生命科學的確我在一二十年前我就說台灣的工學院沒有念生命科學當作必修是不對的"},{"start":6984.272,"end":6989.636,"text":"相較於人文社會、工程科學、自然科學目前國科會對於生命科學投入的經費比例大概有多少?"},{"start":7008.395,"end":7029.142,"text":"我們生命科學的投入比例應該是在4個學術處裡面是最多的未來還會再調整嗎應該是因為我們預算還是有限如果事實上我們的學術處有工程自然跟那個生科還有這個人文社會那我記得我們這個這個生科這邊應該是"},{"start":7032.584,"end":7045.213,"text":"當然我們也是非常看重這一個部分才跟你探討一下我想從台積電在張聰某先生的帶領造就了2024 3月台積電"},{"start":7046.954,"end":7048.935,"text":"主委您對於人機見面的一個布局國科會目前做了些什麼"},{"start":7077.975,"end":7093.703,"text":"實際上人機界面的布局實際上從我十幾年前在國科會的時候就有布了但是現在因為因應生存式AI出來以後的確是翻轉那個速度更快那的確是未來的重點我說那個Generative AI"},{"start":7095.324,"end":7118.505,"text":"未來10年每一個月都會變化那國科會也針對這個有佈局事實上我們那個金創台灣計畫的第一支就是百工百業要來弄事實上就是這個緣起那我們現在已經啟動了我想本席建議國科會是不是應該站出來擔任國家隊的一個隊長成立一個AI和BCI的一個人際見面主軸的一個法人"},{"start":7121.263,"end":7137.797,"text":"深層市我現在一直強調是深層市的人工智慧跟原來的人工智慧不太一樣因為深層市已經接近到我們的人那這個的確是未來不只在技術啦會善到社會包括風險包括資安都有"},{"start":7138.357,"end":7160.634,"text":"那這個需要的專業的人力當然是越來越多那我們現在有一個AICOE就人工智慧的Center of Excellence把國內的一些專家集合起來那未來也不排除有一個比較固定的這個單位是好那主委您知不知道中醫藥的一個振興計畫針對該計畫國科會幫忙多少中醫藥這個我這個來處長應該知道"},{"start":7169.325,"end":7190.968,"text":"國科會一直對這個中醫藥發展是投入很多的我們平均大概一年大概有補助70幾件中醫藥的學門計畫平均大概每一件計畫有120多萬台幣那現在也有規劃一些中醫藥的實證的計畫那大概有兩支一支大概是250萬所以有兩支一年是500萬"},{"start":7191.969,"end":7218.254,"text":"那未來114年應該還會有一個中央計劃是為期4年的也是要做中醫藥的實證計劃以上不好意思因為您的聲音稍微小聲一點待會再稍微大聲一點就好我有盡力在聽我想在這個近幾十年來人工智慧AI在這個中醫學的領域上基礎應用已經匯補一個成果包括AI的診療AI的醫學影像還有AI的藥物研究AI的健康管理我想在傳統中"},{"start":7219.614,"end":7243.407,"text":"中醫都有一個試診望聞問切的一個理論之下逐步結合人工智慧的醫學影像電腦診斷發展舌診儀文診儀以及脈診儀建立更精準的一個標準化數位的一個診斷依據以作為一個推動中醫精準的醫療的一個基石我想諸位針對這個AI的診療醫學影像藥物研究健康管理目前的辦理狀況"},{"start":7246.037,"end":7258.454,"text":"那個深層市人工智慧剛出來還不到一年嘛那的確那個方向是正確因為中醫的那些脈動那些數據如果有人工智慧大資料庫來幫忙應該是會有蠻大的這個進展"},{"start":7262.722,"end":7264.824,"text":"國科會有沒有辦法導入數位科技協助中藥材的一個品質管理?"},{"start":7280.169,"end":7289.316,"text":"國科委還是要仰賴各個大學的教授來幫忙那這個剛剛我們這個處長已經有說過我們相關的計畫都有在call那這個方向應該是"},{"start":7295.416,"end":7322.138,"text":"但是不少國家都開發DNA的方法來做為一個藥材鑑別的一個技術所以我們當然希望說有這個機會可以建議那也希望國科會能夠就這個方面來未來朝向這個瞭解OK 可以嗎我們可以納入請那個申科書納入那主委可以嗎可以可以喔謝謝您那主委你應該有聽過青冠一號那個資料那個會後再給我們好好好那我們再一起瞭解一下主委你應該有聽過青冠一號吧"},{"start":7323.137,"end":7329.707,"text":"有你有吃過嗎我到現在還沒有喔真的天選之人"},{"start":7331.089,"end":7358.146,"text":"但是我記得我在兩年前去Santiago開那個Bio的機很多台灣的人都買不到事實上我把我們的送給他他就很高興很多人跟我們要我自己也吃過新冠1號它是衛福部自行研發的一個中藥嘛那郭柯惠身為國內科技研發的中藥部會也負責跨部會的一個協調請問新冠1號有沒有其他的計畫"},{"start":7360.748,"end":7362.078,"text":"欸 這個要 收掉"},{"start":7363.888,"end":7389.329,"text":"我們國科會在114年會推一個中鋼計畫叫做中醫藥的實證醫學我要特別強調實證兩個字啦對就是說中醫藥歷史很久在臨床上有些可能大家有經驗但沒有實證的臨床資料所以我們會做這個事情我相信在未來應該不只青關醫藥應該很多學者會把他的秘方配方通通會拿出來申請這個實證醫學的計畫以上謝謝"},{"start":7391.751,"end":7415.2,"text":"好,那我想我還是要最後再因為我也蠻關心台版的CHAP GPT那其實我剛剛也談到到我們人腦與AI的這個所謂人機界面那我看到其實整個我們整個國科會裡面能夠帶領未來這個整個人機界面或者是深層式的AI來做一個整合規劃我覺得就像我剛剛在問您如果"},{"start":7415.6,"end":7433.049,"text":"未來你有辦法再結合一些民間的企業大家一起來整合這相關的資源因為我剛剛有提到台積電啊灰達啊都是我們非常知名的一個廠牌那如果能夠整合成由國家帶領的一個國家隊您做隊長那整合這些民間企業成為一個法人有沒有機會我還是想問一下"},{"start":7436.274,"end":7437.075,"text":"主委您不覺得這些業界其實蠻"},{"start":7451.927,"end":7477.293,"text":"願意付出對國家有一份樂中大家願意來那是不是有可以趁這一次的機會因緣際會下大家有一次的合作未來結合成法人然後有更多更多的一個合作我想台灣如果有這由您的帶領之下又還有這些法人一起來協助對不起又有這些廠商來協助的話我成為這個法人我想可以創造其他的一個機會"},{"start":7478.553,"end":7483.66,"text":"台灣必須要合作事實上金創台灣方案裡面的IC Design跟人工智慧國內的廠商"},{"start":7494.193,"end":7510.763,"text":"因為台灣的半導體是從IC設計製造到封裝測試我們目前正在努力把台灣廠商把它集結在一起包括這個學研界那這個不一定是要我啦但是這個方向應該是會持續推動這個方向是對的嗎您可以認同嗎"},{"start":7511.804,"end":7512.264,"text":"接下來請陳培鈺委員質詢"},{"start":7547.585,"end":7551.107,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請主委有請吳主委陳委員長主委早安我們從去年地府上任我們大概10月18日就跟主委請教過關於兒少自殺的死因回溯尤其是衛福部其實已經有6歲以下可是6歲到18歲的相關自殺研究我們之前在跟主委辦公室討論的時候主委您表示您也非常關心而且"},{"start":7577.378,"end":7603.636,"text":"主委您也承諾說這確實是一個重要的事情那我這邊要說我們要非常感謝國科會確實在後續有召開非常多跨部會的會議可是我們到最近而且我們看到在4個月當中有4次的諮詢會議其實資料我們都收到了我要先謝謝主委但是我們要說後續看到國科會給我們的回應就如同這個簡報上說的國科會的回應告訴我們說已經有一些相關的研究在進行可是最後他卻給了一個結論我唸給主委聽喔"},{"start":7607.338,"end":7609.819,"text":"主委有沒有聽到這邊?你有沒有覺得怪怪的?"},{"start":7631.804,"end":7649.679,"text":"你一定知道我要問什麼意思就是說我們問的是青少年自殺死因的回溯調查可是最後跳出來給我們的結論是說要規劃專案推動新世代青少年數位我先說新世代青少年數位行為跟價值觀研究確實重要"},{"start":7650.279,"end":7672.213,"text":"但是他跟青少年死因回溯調查之間的關係到底是什麼因為我剛剛一再說我們非常感謝主委在之前的質詢或是後續辦公室的會議對這個主題的重視而且國科會也願意拿出資源但是我們看到這個報告我們其實有點擔心會不會主委您的幕僚誤會了您的想像跟研究的方向於是做出這個回應給我們"},{"start":7674.235,"end":7694.254,"text":"報告委員我先說明一下可能這個論述裡面有個跳躍就是我們在召開第一次專家會議的時候其實有委員提到一件事我覺得相當重要也就是說其實今天為什麼自殺率會從0.5跳到0.6那其實20%相當的高那原因是因為我們其實知道說這些自殺形態不是傳統的自殺形態"},{"start":7695.975,"end":7723.655,"text":"這是專業的給我們的建議所以他們提供一個意見就是說應該全面性的來理解說現在當時的這個世代我們叫阿法世代的青少年他的價值觀的變化在哪裡以至於我們可能沒有辦法用傳統的方式來預測他的自殺率所以我們才會想要綜合衛福部的已經自由的研究教育部的研究我們用後設的方式把他們的資料做一個分析然後我們另外重啟一個價值觀的研究這個是我們想要兩方面結合的一個目的"},{"start":7724.495,"end":7748.448,"text":"這樣您的說明我覺得就相當清楚了聽起來好像也有點合理但是後續我們還是要說因為在你們的報告就是剛剛主委您的幕僚說明的在這個報告裡面確實非常跳躍所以後續是不是也可以補相關資料給我們辦公室因為我們會持續追蹤如果有國科會來發起這個研究它除了可以解除跨部會的限制之外它也可以讓更多相關領域的老師跟專家學者願意回到這個角度來"},{"start":7748.968,"end":7749.128,"text":"第2個部分"},{"start":7765.453,"end":7774.46,"text":"第二部分就是之前也跟主委您討論過科普活動但是我們今天要講的科普不能再只是活動我們這邊想要先謝謝主委之前我們在提到不管是科普列車我們有做非常多調整或是Kids Science確實也讓很多國人跟兒少有更加更多的機會親近所謂的科研場所可是我們要說科普政策治癒國科會的想像因為對我們來說科普不能只是活動那它可以是什麼"},{"start":7791.152,"end":7793.233,"text":"我們來回頭看科普政策當時為什麼會有這個依據我們來回到科技基本法在2017年的時候呢立法說明裡面有提到科普入法的關鍵是"},{"start":7813.224,"end":7830.168,"text":"編列科學技術研究發展預算的研究計畫制定時必須要納入因納入科普推廣之考量但是我們來看目前國科會所有的科普幾乎都是所謂的活動那回到我們剛剛說的那知識傳播或是知識轉譯的部分科學傳播的部分它不能再只是活動"},{"start":7834.629,"end":7846.714,"text":"對於國科會辦科普活動來說好像沒有把所謂的知識轉譯跟科學傳播放在活動規劃或者是政策推動的視野當中這個部分是不是可以請國科會做一個說明"},{"start":7849.468,"end":7867.487,"text":"包括委員我們在推動科普裡面有另外一個範疇是就是補助學校教授執行科普計劃那這個科普計劃裡面有很多都是在執行那個科技轉移的工作那這個部分如果如同剛剛您所說的有補助很多的教授那相關資料我們會在後續跟你們討論"},{"start":7870.249,"end":7887.253,"text":"主委很在意科普的傳播,除了大學教授之外,我們可以看到中研院有一個叫顏值有物,或是民間的科學月刊,還有很多民間的科普網站,其實他們都在對一般的公民做很重要的知識轉譯的示範。"},{"start":7889.493,"end":7905.702,"text":"我覺得這些事情都必須要放進國科會做科普活動推廣的視野當中但是如果如同您剛剛說的它只有在大學教授的研究範圍當中或是只有在大學教授校內的活動當中那其實離一般公民離一般兒少其實還是非常遙遠這個部分國科會有機會再調整跟改進嗎"},{"start":7911.245,"end":7924.553,"text":"實際上我在會內科普不是只有我們科國處的工作其他的學術處也都有所以實際上明天我們的物理跟數學有兩支影片會公佈"},{"start":7925.874,"end":7926.014,"text":"拜託主委注意"},{"start":7956.394,"end":7984.468,"text":"的資料來支持然後進行相關的規劃所以我們之前看到國科會給委員會的報告是活動參與人數啦投入預算作為所謂的KPI可是如果我們一再只有看到這些我相信後續不會再只有我問這個問題應該所有委員都會知道要離開活動的層面來看科普政策在國科會的支持底下它會是什麼樣態所以這個部分如同剛剛主委跟您的幕僚都已經回復我們也希望看到後續國科會在這個部分可以持續的調整好嗎"},{"start":7985.669,"end":7986.35,"text":"李政鴻教授"},{"start":8002.143,"end":8028.03,"text":"還有林煌雄教授討論到氣候領域也是跟台灣有關叫台灣地球系統模型的研究這些都很重要而且是台灣重要的本土研究但確實不容易被注意到因為大家可能看到是科技類AI這種很夯的主題可是我們要再次肯認國科會注意到這些默默付出研究精神跟精力跟時間的研究人員我們覺得這個很重要也希望未來國科會可以持續這個部分可不可以請主委快速回應一下"},{"start":8029.271,"end":8056.949,"text":"謝謝委員的肯定事實上除了行政院傑出科技貢獻獎我們今年度也在國科傑出研究獎裡面有主動臨選的六位長期默默在台灣耕耘的教授出來把他們顯現出來不是只有發表論文的我想我們未來會加重這一部分也就是說你的科技研究是有針對這塊土地"},{"start":8058.47,"end":8063.434,"text":"國科會頒發傑出研究獎目前我們知道國科會非常努力在提升女性科研人員我們看到這個比例到達23%在去年的資料可是如果對照傑出研究獎的得獎性別比例其實還有一些差距"},{"start":8086.854,"end":8105.014,"text":"我們可以看到我這邊框起來是17.5%那我當然知道會因為不同的研究位置可以投入科研時間長度會有影響會有差別可是我現在框起來這17.5%裡面其實也包含了人文社會領域對嗎所以實際上科研領域的女性研究人員獲獎應該會比這個更少"},{"start":8108.067,"end":8128.05,"text":"主委您認為呢?應該好像...所以我們在期待喔國科會是不是在整體提升女性參與跟持續投入科研的工作應該可以持續再改善跟討論那我看你的幕僚在後面很想幫主委回答是不是我們就讓幕僚回答一下"},{"start":8129.111,"end":8146.708,"text":"報告委員的確人文處這邊是女性的研究人員比例最高的將近一半我們在領選委員的時候其實也都會注意性別的平衡因此在尊重性別平衡的狀態底下我們選出來的其實我們就沒有再特別去做調整"},{"start":8147.789,"end":8161.464,"text":"但是我們可以看到這個比例因為我覺得國科會有這個態度很重要但是我們如果看到這個比例調整我都覺得當然還是要重視到研究本身的品質是沒有問題的可是我覺得就性別鼓勵的立場是不是可以請主委再做出一些"},{"start":8162.025,"end":8167.87,"text":"所以今天我們總統跟主委討論了三個題目一個是關於兒童自殺死因回溯第二個是科普不能再只有活動他必須要所有的理論支持作為科普的推廣的依據"},{"start":8186.107,"end":8199.495,"text":"第3個就是關於這個女性女性研究人員必須要被看見這個部分我們後續辦公室也會再跟國科會持續討論那也謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝可以謝謝好謝謝陳培鈺委員我主委請回哎呦"},{"start":8211.941,"end":8212.342,"text":"主委早"},{"start":8225.429,"end":8240.775,"text":"從台灣第一枚的這個自製氣象衛星這個裂縫者升空開始翻開了台灣太空發展的新篇章那同時呢也持續提供遙測跟氣象的資料那貢獻給國際社會讓台灣這個在太空科技發展這條路上跟國際接軌那不落人後我想在這裡要藉這個機會"},{"start":8252.02,"end":8268.196,"text":"先肯定國科會有關於太空自主關鍵技術發展的努力不過太空科技的發展其實是一場很艱困的挑戰會隨著國際情勢的演變我們也需要相應的迅速來應對"},{"start":8269.877,"end":8293.254,"text":"近期媒體報載二國傳出正在研發太空核電站的消息中國的太空發展更是急起直追2022年底天宮太空站已經全面建成也更陸續進行了月球跟火星的探測計畫至於印度的太空科研也積極發展登月計畫以及國造載人的航天計畫"},{"start":8298.678,"end":8324.816,"text":"由此可見世界各國大家都很加強火力在發展這個太空科技那請問主委目前就我們台灣的最新的這個太空計畫裡頭是不是像我所剛所說就是說太空科研需要因應這個國際情勢的演變以及配合國家的安全會有不同的規劃那同時也要做修正跟研議所以我們要如何面對這樣變化中的這個國際情勢對於我們的太空科技發展"},{"start":8330.179,"end":8347.933,"text":"委員講的完全正確而且是必須要走的方向事實上從2019 Elon Musk Starlink出來以後我們也馬上跟上當然台灣跟中國跟美國不太一樣因為國家的size不太一樣"},{"start":8349.013,"end":8372.413,"text":"我們是要找對時間點切進去那事實上台灣應該也有掌握到這個機會就這個通訊衛星他未來會帶來很多新的產業的機會我們也有步了那另外這個火箭之前沒有但是未來現在我們啟動台灣的火箭的一些研發跟研製也在順利在進行當中"},{"start":8373.634,"end":8402.353,"text":"當然要在這邊跟委員報告就是說台灣不是一個大型的國家那我們必須要施力要施的巧那事實上我們有在這邊注意也注意到說除了這個低軌中軌高軌的通訊以外月球跟火星的探測也是未來一個重要的地方我們也會來跟民主友好的國家一起來協力合作謝謝"},{"start":8403.714,"end":8424.32,"text":"另一部分本席想請教因為去年蔡總統10月有表示說我們國家太空科技發展的長程計畫剛剛也有委員詢問要再加碼至少400億那我想這個投入他是要投入低軌的通訊衛星的研製規劃"},{"start":8426.061,"end":8431.924,"text":"以及國家發射場跟人才的培育這幾大項根據產經新聞的報導台灣今年有望開始進入低軌的衛星通訊時代來補足傳統4G、5G沒有辦法完全覆蓋台灣"},{"start":8446.072,"end":8447.273,"text":"我們已經要進入這個低軌衛星通訊時代"},{"start":8474.535,"end":8498.167,"text":"兩方面短期來講當然我們的衛星網還不會那麼快但是短期我們會跟國際的大廠包括OneWeb或者是歐洲的一些廠商美國Starlink我們也沒有放棄事實上目前只有Starlink跟OneWeb比較成熟這個短期我們持續跟他們接觸合作"},{"start":8499.508,"end":8528.15,"text":"包括那個亞馬遜的開闊我們也不排除合作在技術上的合作那long term來講的確台灣因為是一個海島必須要有自己的一個衛星網路那這個太空中心有在研議佈局當中好那至於國家發射場的部分那當然我們不好意思我剛剛那個400億還有包括火箭的研發對對對所以我現在就要跟你說火箭"},{"start":8529.812,"end":8553.734,"text":"因為我們現在當然就是說我們有這個屏東旭海的這個科研火箭發射場這是用在短期的科研對嘛那永久性的國家級的這個火箭發射場目前長子的評估如何除了台東的那個南田以外還有沒有其他的進展"},{"start":8555,"end":8578.245,"text":"現在我們進到說我們要把那個未來的發射廠因為事實上要用的話可能好幾十年的時間不能亂選而且未來的擴充性也要大所以它基本的地理物理還有一些這個環境的影響它的一些審查的要件我們剛好在2月也把它審過了現在會持續來"},{"start":8579.705,"end":8600.749,"text":"進行下面的程序。我們預計在年底會把那個場子選定。決定?確定?對。OK。好。那也會跟在地的就是居民、縣市政府也會做一些溝通。好。好。那另外就人才培育的部分。本期上次會期有詢問高教端這個太空相關科系設立的這個狀況。"},{"start":8604.93,"end":8610.54,"text":"加上這個蔡總統加碼這個研發的經費所以我們目前的規劃是如何這個大學端"},{"start":8614.005,"end":8633.706,"text":"大學端的這個太空相關科系的設置我們有四個相關的太空相關的系所就設立了那那個學生都是爆滿那另外我們太空中心也有一些太空相關的培育的一些訓練營包括給產業都有"},{"start":8637.409,"end":8654.377,"text":"我大概問幾下一個是基礎是在大學端有四所太空系統工程研究所去年幾乎全部滿招甚至有些學校備一都進不去然後另外一個是比較偏太空中心就是比較在培養太空科技學材我們辦了很多這種訓練的課程所以現在大學端有四個"},{"start":8659.38,"end":8670.475,"text":"另外一個是經濟部的他們其實有很多在比較產創這些方面的訓練相當多的人才好那如果4個都報滿有沒有考慮再多增加"},{"start":8671.957,"end":8679.061,"text":"接下來想要跟您討論的就是如何健全我國資安防護的體質因為這個禮拜一我們為了討論各界關注的衛星資訊安全議題美台衛星安全國際研討會有在台灣舉辦"},{"start":8695.191,"end":8716.461,"text":"這場研討會代表著衛星通訊資安的重要性不過也不只衛星的通訊資安我國政府的各部會的整體的資安防護在台灣不分公家民間的部門越來越常受到網路攻擊的狀況之下我們要更有系統的布局"},{"start":8717.861,"end":8743.893,"text":"當然舉例來說像鴻海旗下半導體大廠金鼎就1月遭到駭客入侵這一起事件的重要性當然就影響了台灣半導體產業的穩定性那國科會下面有個資安科技研究中心那我想這個是負責佈局中上游的資安學術的科學中心"},{"start":8744.753,"end":8765.771,"text":"那串聯下游這個跨部會合作的應用那來聚焦這個關鍵議題的研究那引導策略性國際資安學術這個合作那同時我們當然也要延攬這個國際的學者來訪台來參與所謂的我們的這個研究計畫培育這個資安的學術人才"},{"start":8767.272,"end":8787.947,"text":"經過我們初步的詢問我們現在國科會2023年培育高階資安技術研發人才有341位那我想請教是說這些專業人才投入了哪些單位來協助我們的資安科技那我們有沒有想要把這些培育出的這個人才都留在國內"},{"start":8791.433,"end":8812.845,"text":"我們會盡力因為這個資安人才最近世界各國都在搶包括台灣國內也在搶政府都是搶不贏外面的公司但是的確是未來需要更多的資安相關的人才我們TACC就是在因為TACC是我們一個"},{"start":8813.866,"end":8814.766,"text":"我們也在努力當中"},{"start":8838.176,"end":8854.213,"text":"最後要強調資安及國安公部門的資訊安全其實需要不分行政立法共同來加強資安防護的落實就如同國防要自主所以資訊安全的防護也要"},{"start":8855.254,"end":8881.286,"text":"國造就是自主我們就要自主來健全自己的體質那所以期待這個資安科技這個研究中心我們可以有更專業更完整的這個佈局那我想這個我們都要來努力那我想剛剛提到的不管是資安不管是這個我們火箭這個發射場不管是人才的培育這些都還要繼續來加油好不好"},{"start":8882.386,"end":8886.149,"text":"謝謝 國科繼續努力謝謝主委 謝謝林益勤委員 謝謝主委接下來有請吳春成委員休息5分鐘"},{"start":9263.507,"end":9267.189,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們接下來請吳春成委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們請主委好 有請吳主委"},{"start":9286.01,"end":9312.373,"text":"主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委"},{"start":9314.357,"end":9319.953,"text":"我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化"},{"start":9321.284,"end":9348.681,"text":"你認同嗎?當然那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題了解台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的好"},{"start":9351.397,"end":9369.862,"text":"那這個你認同嗎?認同!你認同喔?真的是...我們稱為叫國安問題嘛很重要齁好這個呢我剛看了我們今天報告的這個高齡產業而且最近你看國科會有記者會嘛就是高齡科技產業的一個行動記者會發佈了"},{"start":9372.583,"end":9391.198,"text":"要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有"},{"start":9392.97,"end":9420.683,"text":"林德國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會有高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容"},{"start":9423.361,"end":9446.986,"text":"主委是帶路的人 帶頭的人 八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話 這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題 這個就行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下 你覺得幾歲算老人"},{"start":9450.63,"end":9471.886,"text":"幾歲算老人?我超過65了以前的定義是65歲以上就是老人但是這個是到目前是不符合目前的現狀我們政府定義中高齡是指幾歲?"},{"start":9473.993,"end":9476.194,"text":"因為全世界聯合國他們也是這樣定義的"},{"start":9496.886,"end":9522.272,"text":"但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得呢這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的"},{"start":9523.14,"end":9545.468,"text":"你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有育育移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出來的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛"},{"start":9547.749,"end":9564.892,"text":"去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛"},{"start":9566.606,"end":9584.336,"text":"這是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政 這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導 因為政府的想像主導 這個當然就是普惠科技就是那一份計畫書 那一場會議當中的大綱"},{"start":9586.957,"end":9602.368,"text":"所有的裡面名字好像取得有些蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫"},{"start":9603.829,"end":9603.849,"text":"錯誤人設"},{"start":9622.182,"end":9648.419,"text":"整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標嘛就要讓他好好的臥床嘛對不對臥床舒服一點嘛那這就是高齡科技的目標嘛然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上嘛"},{"start":9649.019,"end":9650.801,"text":"這就是我們政府現在看到所有的政策當中所做的對高齡者的人設"},{"start":9662.352,"end":9690.248,"text":"你要服務這樣子的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床"},{"start":9691.448,"end":9710.944,"text":"你看這個影響有多大,這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他對啊你沒有叫他,但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦點非常重要因為你在帶路咧,你要趕快把他帶回來"},{"start":9714.026,"end":9733.519,"text":"我會拜託主委趕快把它帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線委員的這個觀念我是認同的就是說,65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把它認為是老,這個是正確的對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只占人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有關係"},{"start":9736.181,"end":9746.036,"text":"台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人呢?六八百人退休以後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事"},{"start":9750.553,"end":9772.763,"text":"這麼龐大而且這不是這樣子這個越來越多以後2030年台灣一般人超過50歲你知道未來台灣是我們都沒有在告訴這個是MASO的八大需求最低層次叫生理需求叫安全需求這大家都知道嘛對不對我們現在整個的政府政策只在滿足最低層次的需求生理需求上面的需求全部"},{"start":9773.843,"end":9774.663,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9797.474,"end":9799.555,"text":"所以這個會導致什麼呢?"},{"start":9799.555,"end":9811.764,"text":"這個就是你們市場想像的很侷限產業的類型侷限 這件事情對未來的發展國科會非常重要 這個我看到行政院包括各個部會"},{"start":9812.605,"end":9814.847,"text":"現在高齡者都是戰後嬰兒草這一群人是人類有史以來最強壯的時代"},{"start":9842.785,"end":9857.368,"text":"所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好"},{"start":9859.484,"end":9883.67,"text":"所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類其實新的戰後嬰兒草這一群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這一群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":9884.75,"end":9885.751,"text":"我們再來請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":9910.56,"end":9910.82,"text":"主席"},{"start":9919.019,"end":9924.524,"text":"主委早安我想在整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜那真的發現這個主委任內非常有開創性針對重要的科技趨勢譬如說今天也有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的精創台灣方案"},{"start":9942.739,"end":9962.708,"text":"我覺得都是非常有前瞻性就是說我們在這個科技的前沿怎麼樣為台灣創造最大的公共的利益的部分我想主委任內的這幾些做法我覺得都是非常引領我們委員還沒想到的你們都先規劃了所以是肯定就是主委這方面的努力"},{"start":9963.208,"end":9982.198,"text":"就是非常的期待讓台灣在未來的10年我們都有機會繼續引領那對我關心的一些問題不管是性別人文社會科學主委也非常的關注那這點我也肯定就是說相比於就是說我們看到過去的國科我覺得這也是非常的可圈可點"},{"start":9983.419,"end":9999.244,"text":"但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層式AI一年前"},{"start":10000.504,"end":10025.85,"text":"去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個human in the loop society in the loop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與"},{"start":10027.61,"end":10043.997,"text":"決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI"},{"start":10045.017,"end":10073.213,"text":"所以這部分這個泰德計劃我想算是非常的讓人值得期待我知道你們還沒有正式開放據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU"},{"start":10073.933,"end":10091.135,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10091.255,"end":10107.591,"text":"我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將延期國際相關技術並參酌委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程"},{"start":10115.438,"end":10131.916,"text":"主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候"},{"start":10132.456,"end":10156.199,"text":"我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些其實用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果"},{"start":10156.86,"end":10185.051,"text":"他這個對話引擎去唸一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一唸到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被"},{"start":10186.448,"end":10194.294,"text":"人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的human in the loop society in the loop"},{"start":10207.324,"end":10207.844,"text":"我們這個已經確定是本土的生存性AI可能會"},{"start":10234.199,"end":10262.158,"text":"甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝 這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道的關鍵一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊"},{"start":10262.458,"end":10287.512,"text":"因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK"},{"start":10290.073,"end":10306.549,"text":"另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI"},{"start":10311.894,"end":10312.334,"text":"主委簡要說明"},{"start":10338.861,"end":10348.847,"text":"謝謝 委員這個蠻正確的 事實上我們在盤點精創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入 就是一個更龐大的計畫了 不能重疊 因為有些會有關聯性的"},{"start":10353.609,"end":10373.746,"text":"那我相信您喔 那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁 記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌 驚訝 覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比 我們是人文人才極低"},{"start":10374.426,"end":10396.468,"text":"社會科學也相對低我們是科技一枝獨秀我知道主委很重視這一塊可是當時報紙就爆出了經費戰後來你們有跟我講說可能是個錯誤對不對我還是要求說應該增加所以從八大前瞻到這個精創台灣人文社會科學你要有"},{"start":10397.529,"end":10420.2,"text":"相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就119億對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程"},{"start":10421.721,"end":10439.008,"text":"會有一個過程當然也是啦合理啦另外一個我們現在有一個科民社就是科技民主社會我知道就是政大的那個社會政大那個非常讓人期待就是說他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要人文社會接到我們的製造業"},{"start":10440.528,"end":10442.029,"text":"在你們的四大佈局當中我們辦公室去研究你們其實佈局一有講到"},{"start":10462.876,"end":10463.296,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":10487.891,"end":10511.65,"text":"產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是IC Design這些人大部分是半導體"},{"start":10514.752,"end":10529.02,"text":"這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面"},{"start":10529.4,"end":10552.307,"text":"那是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以"},{"start":10555.069,"end":10575.468,"text":"謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝好謝謝范雲委員吳主委請那我們現在先來處理這個臨時提案那今天有委員提出臨時提案有三案那我們一併宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":10577.537,"end":10602.875,"text":"第一案有介於近幾年生成式人工智慧AI技術發展一日成日影響遍佈全球產官學研各界其生成創作內容在提供生活上娛樂便利與提高工作效率的同時也引發著作權爭議以及大量性有職業被取代的焦慮在將來生成式AI勢力進一步結合產業應用的同時"},{"start":10603.795,"end":10633.044,"text":"因先就AI對就業市場潛在的衝擊進行評估並致力相關配套措施以預防人類工作被大量取代所引發之社會動盪原請國家科學及技術委員會針對深層式AI與就業市場可能產生的衝擊範圍深度進行評估提出立法規範建議或參考指引並於3個月內就其進度向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告。提案人 洪孟凱 萬美玲 林怡瑾"},{"start":10633.544,"end":10657.121,"text":"第二案有介於國家科學技術發展基金在高齡議題上多數以高齡長者因法族群的醫療及安全需求作為研究導向實際上有關狀世代族群在食衣住行娛樂等相關需求之研究寥寥無幾上述情形顯示國科會在高齡科技產業發展上存在高齡需求數據嚴重不足之問題"},{"start":10659.503,"end":10677.585,"text":"進而在缺乏對壯士代需求的理解下因目標市場模糊和不合理難以有顯著成果國科會因規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院教文委員會提案人吳春成、萬美玲、洪孟凱"},{"start":10678.306,"end":10703.657,"text":"第三案有建於國科會推動高齡科技產業行動計畫預計4年內投入95億元經費並整合行政院經濟部衛福部數位部教育部內政部文化部及原民會共8大部會然而台灣過去社會環境或是政府的高齡化對策都以養生養老養病作為思考點高齡科技多局限於醫療保健等生理需求問題"},{"start":10704.797,"end":10727.458,"text":"國科會應基於高齡科技相關計劃之研究基礎探討科技與設計在50歲以上人口生活中所扮演的角色並用上述議題精進高齡科技產業相關計劃及提出專責市場需求系統性研究方案於3個月內提出書面報告與立法院教文委員會提案人吳春成萬美玲紅夢凱旋的完畢"},{"start":10728.905,"end":10753.528,"text":"好 那我們請問三個案的提案委員有沒有補充說明或意見如果沒有的話 那主委要不要補充說明好 謝謝 這個委員提案第一案 這個遵照辦理好 那個第二案的話再有一些小文字修正在最後倒數第二行就國歌會因就把它劃掉"},{"start":10755.072,"end":10779.551,"text":"會同經濟部、衛福部、速發部規劃這中差了幾個字那這個跟委員有協調過應該是OK那第三案也是稍微文字修正在上面算下來第1、2、3、4第5行國科會因會同經濟部、衛福部、速發部基於高齡科技其他就沒有修正"},{"start":10780.762,"end":10794.738,"text":"好,那吳委員沒問題吼?對不起,還有一個,第二案不好意思吼,第二案那個一個月改成三個月OK,好,那我們第一案就遭案通過第二案跟第三案都修正通過好,謝謝"},{"start":10797.324,"end":10820.219,"text":"那各題案如果有委員要補簽我們請議事委員來詳細登載在議事錄那補簽在這裡那我們接下來進行質詢我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在林德福委員林德福林德福委員不在鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢"},{"start":10827.603,"end":10828.53,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委"},{"start":10836.442,"end":10838.623,"text":"今天因為我只有4分鐘我會努力兩個主題就是我長期在監督的文化科技的跨域合作還有TTA進駐北市科"},{"start":10859.259,"end":10885.856,"text":"在本席的不斷的倡議之下也謝謝主委謝謝政委科技顧問制度科技顧問會議在去年12月再重新召開了那個時候我們都忙於選舉但是我也有持續follow那我確實看到在我們八位國內外的科技專家共同進入三天深度的討論確實為我們未來台灣的科技發展定矛定方向"},{"start":10886.656,"end":10909.258,"text":"半導體跟AI的部分做出了三個策略的結論第一個是加強培育人才第二個加速應用技術的發展第三個要以生成式AI Plus晶片來驅動全產業的創新而且要強化新創的服務 樣樣相向都非常的正確而且有遠見"},{"start":10910.419,"end":10939.659,"text":"在近鄰科技的面向一樣有三個策略要針對台灣特性來定定台灣具發展潛力的近鄰科技而且以2030為目標非常明確第二呢利用台灣近鄰轉型的機會要培養在地的綠色供應鏈這也非常的重要最後一個把握AI的轉型契機加速產業近鄰以數位雙轉型那您對於這樣的科技顧問會議能夠重新上路"},{"start":10940.719,"end":10961.257,"text":"您覺得這樣是不是非常值得、非常正確?謝謝委員持續關心也在催生的科技顧問會議的確台灣在面對未來實際上需要國際更多的傑出領袖一起來給我們做一些建議跟comment的確這一次針對半導體AI科學"},{"start":10962.298,"end":10971.478,"text":"我已經看到非常就是有願景有vision的好那你也知道我會問那你會擴充他的領域別嗎會一年是開兩次"},{"start":10973.554,"end":10999.355,"text":"還是一次?那你下一個階段要擴充哪一個面向?應該是會把它全部佈下來了。其實上我在這個整個科技的發展會跟所謂STEEP從社會、經濟、科技、政治跟環境邁向明年的全國科技顧問會議再行召開那勢必我希望您也能夠繼續留在內閣的崗位上我也會大力推薦"},{"start":11002.978,"end":11025.065,"text":"您也持續領導我們我個人真的看到您的願景很好下一頁那另外呢在我們科技顧問會議之下就是今年緊鑼密鼓接力接棒的就是第12次的全國科學技術會議全國的科技大會但是我要提醒本期一直在講的文化科技或是科技文化"},{"start":11026.706,"end":11040.238,"text":"從鄭麗君到李永德到施哲文化科技施政綱領已經Pending了1262天行政院還沒有合定我知道這個計畫的主責文化部是"},{"start":11041.019,"end":11062.134,"text":"主要的主責機關你們是協力者但是您是科技的政委我提醒在第12次全國科技技術會議裡頭能夠把文化技術文化科技也納為一個討論的重點我想這個做得到也有利於我們在review文化科技施政綱領是不是要修正"},{"start":11063.087,"end":11089.44,"text":"這個可以 這個我國科會目前正在安排這個好 那謝謝您的promise所以科技導入可以用在強化台灣的文化韌性就是文化資產的修復包括可以做強化我們的文化禁用也可以包括我們的語言保存來下一頁TTA很重要蔣萬安市長這段時間發給我們臺北市的立委厚厚的一疊公文"},{"start":11090.527,"end":11111.937,"text":"當中他提請跨黨派的立委來協助臺北市的建設發展我非常同意吳思堯從以前到現在就是跨黨派在協助臺北市我不會因為執政的市長是白的是藍的而我不替臺北發聲NO吳思堯永遠是替臺北發聲超越黨派走在最前面但是我赫然發現蔣萬安市長發函要我們請臺北"},{"start":11115.138,"end":11132.262,"text":"請中央來協助地方的事項有19個要修的法案20個要爭取的預算項目沒有我們努力這麼久的TTA新創基地來落腳北市科欸下一頁所以您下一頁我謝謝您下一頁下一頁好回到前一頁"},{"start":11139.22,"end":11161.905,"text":"來下一頁好錯了好下一頁上一次您跟我一起到北市科去現場考察了我們也跟台北市政府做成了會議方向的結論在僅剩的北市科T3 T4的用地裡頭用承租的方式或是專案讓售的方式讓我們的TTA有一個長治久安進駐的地點而目前的結論下一頁"},{"start":11163.425,"end":11177.693,"text":"似乎是願意臺北市願意再跟廠商再成都新的土地的地上全的標案內容裡頭保留一層需求是你們提的大概1400平然後每平大概1300元這條件應當是你們談過的但是進度到底怎麼樣"},{"start":11182.176,"end":11207.531,"text":"如果這個事情是這麼的方向明確那為什麼蔣萬安市長在要求跨黨派的立委協助臺北的周洋地方合作的時候就獨露這一項我要說蔣萬安市長你是新創市長就搞真的不要把這件事情一直擱在那裡這不是吳思瑤的credit這是臺灣科技發展的需要這是臺北市產業進步的需要好就這個案子你們的立場跟進度"},{"start":11210.281,"end":11227.827,"text":"謝謝吳委員的關心事實上TTA在臺北小巨蛋短期再成都7年那的確也不是一個長久之計那如果臺北市有適合的地方這個我去看了一下應該是蠻好的一個地點"},{"start":11229.127,"end":11237.53,"text":"好 我們現在還有7年的時間可以來繼續下一個中長期的計劃因為現在你們又在繼續續租小巨蛋還被台北市起起起這個租金每瓶增加83塊降我們租金好 我們勉為其難繼續租用但未來長城的合作落腳在北市科大家都搞了這麼久看了這麼久我會再次督促蔣萬安市長新創市長就完真的不要打假球"},{"start":11257.797,"end":11258.5,"text":"那國科會準備好了嗎?我們加強跟他們洽談好嗎?這個應該是對台北市會也是一個plus"},{"start":11266.484,"end":11291.107,"text":"我們不管台北市怎麼樣的delay我們不會放棄私藥不會放棄I am watching you all ok加油謝謝謝謝謝謝主席給我時間謝謝好謝謝謝謝吳私藥委員好我們接下來吳主委請我們接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在我們接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":11296.086,"end":11296.246,"text":"吳主委"},{"start":11310.352,"end":11315.455,"text":"主委好,首先非常感謝國會聯絡組在我要的資料的部分也給了相當完整的資料所以今天有這個機會可以跟主委這邊來討論相關的議題"},{"start":11328.002,"end":11355.391,"text":"今天如果時間夠的話我想跟主委溝通一下有關於原住民的這個研究跟我們這個國科會跟體育運科中心的一個相關的平台在這個不知道主委對於族群研究與原住民族研究這個整合型計畫的一個起始跟目前執行的狀況的一個瞭解"},{"start":11356.672,"end":11376.414,"text":"這個我瞭解因為原住民族包括原住民族科技的永續的一些平台事實上我們蠻關切的那我記得應該兩三年前我說因為也有委員來提議我說國科會作為國家的科學技術的一個主管機關我們有責任來做這樣的一個佈置"},{"start":11377.535,"end":11397.192,"text":"更何況援助民主的一些相關的生活跟科技事實上也可以作為未來永續發展的一個很好的借鏡那事實上我們因為未來2050近年很多援助民主的一些生活方式是蠻符合近年的這個方向的"},{"start":11397.612,"end":11401.276,"text":"謝謝主委我聽到也蠻放心的因為在這個內容上在科技的這個部分好像在計畫裡面我沒有看到被特別的強調那所以剛才主委講的這個方向如果是依照這樣子走的話那我還蠻欣慰的"},{"start":11415.312,"end":11436.237,"text":"所以在這邊我想跟主委這邊做一個詢問有關於原住民族這個族群研究與原住民族的整合型計畫那我想請教一下那個整合型計畫的這樣為什麼要用整合型計畫的一個方式請問這樣子的一個決策不知道主委有沒有了解或者是請處長來做個報告"},{"start":11437.677,"end":11464.262,"text":"報告委員因為當初我們做族群研究跟原住民族研究是想要跟原來每位學者自有的研究有所差別那希望是在族群的連結以及原住民族的其他擴大的議題所以整合型的研究是因為是整個國科會對於研究形態的一種規定那也就是說希望三件計畫能夠結合成一個團隊然後往單一的方向那這樣目標清楚但是會跨不同的領域所以有這樣的一個設計"},{"start":11466.242,"end":11488.853,"text":"謝謝您,我可不可以以這邊做一個建議因為之前團隊當然是很認真就是我有問過這裡面有關於具備原住民身份的這個研究者跟非原住民身份的研究者這邊那好像我們會裡面目前還沒有相關的資料所以我的一個建議是可不可以開放個別"},{"start":11489.773,"end":11490.434,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11506.288,"end":11530.691,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11530.691,"end":11531.411,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這個應該現在就可以決定當然可以"},{"start":11558.304,"end":11558.444,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":11576.515,"end":11598.724,"text":"因為我們長期會被框在人類學然後族群那似乎我們跟科技自然或者是最尖端的AI一點關係都沒有那我想這已經是長久很多原住民的這個青年包括我就覺得我們為什麼一定要被這麼刻板的看待那如果長得不是太土的話你就看起來不像原住民這樣子的刻板印象其實長期這樣一個隱性的歧視會讓我們覺得有點"},{"start":11605.088,"end":11621.421,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒這個就是一般型個人來提應該是可以的我想人文處會來發謝謝主委那接下來是我就資料的這個部分有一點提醒是不是可以請這個處內這邊就是會裡面也幫忙做一些瞭解那在這個"},{"start":11627.225,"end":11627.345,"text":"議員吳政忠"},{"start":11644.651,"end":11644.851,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11664.685,"end":11664.985,"text":"我們再看一下這個拍圖"},{"start":11692.802,"end":11713.721,"text":"我們可以清楚地看到110一直到113都會區北部已經超過了一半我們知道現在也有一些都會原住民的議題是不是有可能在這樣一個取向上第一個先注意一下我們經費分布的一個平均"},{"start":11715.383,"end":11715.864,"text":"這是大學提出來的研究計畫嗎?這個機構?"},{"start":11733.105,"end":11753.676,"text":"對,那所以在通過的這樣一個考量上可不可以在區會的分部再多做一些了解我來了解一下,看是申請的比較少還是怎麼樣我來了解一下是是,所以這個資源的分配請會裡面可以幫我們了解一下這樣子的一個不平均尤其是一一三年都會去看起來還蠻多的那當然我知道可能要看議題"},{"start":11758.618,"end":11779.81,"text":"所以在這個原住民這個部分我想今天我們期待能夠有幾個部分就是我剛才講的資源的這個分配那也請注意一下原鄉那當然原鄉會跟一些私校目前就越來越沒有的這一個整體性的狀態可能也會有很大的衝擊跟影響那除了整體性那是不是可以請會裡面及早注意到這個問題"},{"start":11781.151,"end":11805.96,"text":"第二部分是花東包括中央山脈空間的部分其實原鄉很多縱使現在整個社會不太一樣但是原鄉的這個空間還是值得大家關注的還有早上有聽到火箭的發射或者是什麼東西的發射要在原鄉這我還是先提醒一下在環境上可不可以在這個環境的衝擊幫我們都做一些評估"},{"start":11807.22,"end":11827.914,"text":"第3個部分是有沒有可能考量一下具有原住民身份的：剛才主委這邊已經同意了那我這個部分就請會裡面注意一下原住民族身份的這個申請者跟非原身份的申請者比例可不可以幫我們配置一下感謝主委早上剛才的一個回應"},{"start":11828.915,"end":11852.21,"text":"最後可不可以增加一個原住民族的社會永續科技發展平台計畫因為我們也很想知道現在AI的發展然後STEM的議題我相信很多年輕人現在應該很具備這方面的潛力如果我們祖先的集體智慧的遺傳傳承是在我們血脈裡面的話我想這個部分應該有機會做到這樣一個可能"},{"start":11852.87,"end":11853.05,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11871.59,"end":11889.795,"text":"最後一點我只是提醒一下有關於我們會裡面跟運科中心的這樣一個結合我們知道會裡面當然比較著重在研究這個部分運科中心教育部的體育署下面的運科中心當然可能是針對運動員"},{"start":11892.156,"end":11906.24,"text":"有沒有可能在這個溝通的平台上那會裡面這邊可不可以多注意一下單項協會或許現在還不是大家都知道的明星型選手但是在過程當中與他們成長"},{"start":11907.921,"end":11931.234,"text":"然後針對台灣目前已有的單項協會的選手可不可以做量身定做的相關研究那這個平台可能要非常常常的溝通然後會裡面可能可以找到相關研究的人在這個部分做一些挹注那我想這樣子的平台的結合才不會各行其事會更有效能"},{"start":11933.155,"end":11950.992,"text":"謝謝 這個我們會來做的確我們這個運動科學的專案他是在比較上中有的一些research那事實上也會推到下面包括運動員 傑出的運動員還有一般老百姓那那個教育部的運動中心我們也會來跟他密切聯繫就讓他接軌 這個應該是可以"},{"start":11953.764,"end":11954.205,"text":"林倩啟委員"},{"start":11969.025,"end":11982.988,"text":"好 主委請回那我們接下來請羅明財委員羅明財羅明財委員不在我們請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒顏寬恒委員不在接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席 有請吳主委好 有請吳主委"},{"start":11999.917,"end":12021.836,"text":"邱委員好重大的資安的議題也是國會主要的業務之一那個昨天美國眾議院這個壓倒性通過要求這個TikTok必須跟中國的這個母公司必須要切割 如果不切割的話我就禁用 列畫法的 台灣能不能比照辦理"},{"start":12022.881,"end":12046.946,"text":"那個就是我早上有提到事實上美國國情跟台灣當然不完全一樣那的確那個TikTok對於這個假訊息的傳播他是非常有效的那我想我們也會因為之前我們有在這個公部門是有禁止不過我想針對美國的這個美國是全面禁用因為你不切割的話"},{"start":12048.127,"end":12064.706,"text":"因為那個也不是國科會完全但是我們會待會行政院來進一步來研議所以站在國科會主管資安議題的這個角度來看你個人是贊成美國做法我國科會沒有主管資安議題有參與其中是是是"},{"start":12065.587,"end":12084.235,"text":"因為我現在佈局就是說資安相關的科技研究包括後量子密碼Whatever是國科會那美國如果參議院通過拜登簽署就真是他有拘束力他有要求其他的盟邦其他的友好的國家比較辦理"},{"start":12086.314,"end":12086.935,"text":"國產化的成本太高"},{"start":12114.608,"end":12130.183,"text":"國產化的學習期間比較長所以這種國產化的成本比較高那當然你這個所有開發商我就選擇跟其他的比較便宜的這個廠商來合作韓國、印度或是美國這樣你要怎麼達成國產化?國科會有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":12134.133,"end":12148.17,"text":"李安豐電現在經濟部在主導那我當然覺得因為當初一開始我有參與國產化也是一個我們的目標就是說除了發電以外相關後續的產業臺灣的廠商要有機會"},{"start":12151.954,"end":12178.545,"text":"那這個我會來有機會因為你這個國產的話代表說這個上中下游這個產業鏈的形成嘛會帶動這個你說北部有一個基地南部有一個基地透過這兩個雙引擎能帶動這個離岸風電相關的產業的發展嘛結果你現在北部可能做得還好北部我不曉得是做真還做假的你知道我意思喔南部沒頂端你知道嗎"},{"start":12179.929,"end":12200.451,"text":"哇 這個我來瞭解一下你可能要跟政府再協調一下 沒聽到他就沒辦法繼續維持他沒辦法維持整個就斷鏈了那些當初找進來的這些所謂離岸風靈國家隊親和一看是那個中鋼成立的那個公司嘛新的海基就是在我選區嘛我知道我知道我有去我去好幾次"},{"start":12201.448,"end":12212.408,"text":"另外這個AI生成式AI的興起當然我們不能不重視這個現象當然我們要做一些做準備你AI的應用"},{"start":12213.479,"end":12214.18,"text":"韓國大型語言模式"},{"start":12238.311,"end":12249.137,"text":"如果建立出來之後 你要落地 落地你要做任何的這個 包括說律師業各行各業 你要做fine tuning這部分好像 經濟部好像也沒有 啊 習慣搞了"},{"start":12251.083,"end":12273.78,"text":"沒關係 作為資深的立委還是要遵守這個法院的時間各報案件 這個問題我希望說把這個FindTune的這個成本把它降低 這個可能國會會 您知道我在講的內容我知道那個才對FindTune降低之後你才能落地去做各個行業的試用"},{"start":12275.177,"end":12289.56,"text":"所以這個我認為要從公佈引擎開始那個齁我們那個對話引擎就是那個Trustworthy Air Dialog Engine我們叫台德引擎事實上就要降低業界拿去的成本那個"},{"start":12290.401,"end":12318.524,"text":"謝謝 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．"},{"start":2363.554,"end":2384.12,"text":"一定的進度來進行,特別是明天我們就要召開第一次的碳費費利審議委員會,那昨天媒體也已經鋪路我們21位的碳費費利委員,那等他們召開之後,事實上我想碳費的標準就會"},{"start":2385.16,"end":2412.291,"text":"有清楚提供在兒權公約我們2014年台灣國內法化之後那去年8月28日也出了一個意見書叫做第26號意見書談的是他們的氣候權也就是兒童有這樣的氣候權他們同時也有表意權那來表達尤其是這邊也特別提醒說各國應該必須採取一切必要適當跟合理的措施來保護"},{"start":2413.071,"end":2433.798,"text":"還指免受於工商企業造成或者是延續跟氣候變遷有關的損害那同時企業有責任尊重跟氣候變遷有關的兒童權利那就要來問部長如果在講氣候權的時候他們有表譽權那部長有關2050年淨零排放入境方法實成是不是有跟青少年對話過"},{"start":2435.309,"end":2450.871,"text":"是的,事實上環境教育裡面很重要的一部分是包括氣候變遷特別是在我們2050年的部長我先提醒不是在教育裡面是這個政策這相關有沒有跟青少年充分的對話"},{"start":2452.763,"end":2466.608,"text":"因為他們關心這個地球未來是他們的那他們要在這邊生活我說特別提醒說青少年就有講過說我們就是你們的後代如果你把地球給毀了我們將在哪裡生活所以想問說你有沒有跟他們對話"},{"start":2469.207,"end":2483.312,"text":"給委員報告我們在第三期我剛有稍微提到就是說現在正在訂定的一個我們減碳的目標裡面事實上就有跟青少年去做一個溝通跟對話"},{"start":2484.332,"end":2484.932,"text":"好 下一頁好好"},{"start":2514.286,"end":2535.418,"text":"市長從臺大風險中心民眾其實對於氣候變遷能源轉型是有高度認知的,將近八成民眾事實上同意的因為避免後代子孫要承接我們所遺留下來的比較糟糕的環境那我在從環境部這邊大概也看到就是我們已經事實上我們的發電業佔國內室溫氣體排放超過五成可是從氣候變遷因應法裡面第28條第二項"},{"start":2542.691,"end":2563.065,"text":"把生產電力的直接排放元排除在外當然理解因為用意是在避免我們增加發電業的負擔進而影響到物價可是也要問部長在這種排除的狀況下目前排碳業大宗就是發電業那環境部接下來怎麼約束改善"},{"start":2563.96,"end":2584.177,"text":"這個部分是不是就請你提出報告給我們這邊來下一頁也就是台灣到底準備好了嗎因為從我們台灣的企業端事實上充滿憂慮的因為有高達八成的企業感受到外界因為國際上的一些壓力包括歐盟已經提出我們的探邊境的"},{"start":2584.757,"end":2590.802,"text":"調整機制跟美國清潔競爭法案即將在2027年課稅所以國際遊戲來勢洶洶已經讓我們臺灣企業也焦慮如熱鍋上的螞蟻所以想問臺灣在這種供應鏈當中佔有很重要的位置"},{"start":2604.198,"end":2629.253,"text":"所以這個轉型的壓力超過5成是來自國際的客戶要求但遺憾的目前只有兩成企業設定目標也只有4成進行我們的碳盤查落後國際事實上一大段的距離所以接下來我們國為了提高競爭力要徵收碳費那我們就要來問這個碳費到底接下來要怎麼"},{"start":2639.386,"end":2645.574,"text":"而所以你碳費徵收是不是能有扣除2.5萬噸所以請部長說明未來是不是還有2.5萬噸的扣除額"},{"start":2652.578,"end":2668.984,"text":"給委員報告就是說當初2.5萬噸有人提到說應該把它扣除額最主要是根據類似所得稅的概念就是說有人舉一個例子比如說這家公司排碳2.4萬噸所以我一直問你未來你還會有這個嗎2.5萬噸的扣除額嗎"},{"start":2673.385,"end":2683.24,"text":"後來我們考量的結果應該還是要由碳費審議委員會去決定但是後來有另外一個聲音就是說假如你扣除這2.5萬噸"},{"start":2685.925,"end":2709.94,"text":"所以會有審議委員會來決定是嗎現在好像是有兩股聲音那我們就交給探會審議委員會來做決定好謝謝林委員所以檢探是玩真的還是玩假球當然是真的為什麼從環境部這個要用2.5萬噸如果用這個起點的話那又因應我們的28條第二項的話電力業免"},{"start":2712.581,"end":2716.683,"text":"一般的排談量所以很懷疑到底是打真的還是假的所以"},{"start":2731.189,"end":2748.838,"text":"不知道讓人家感覺到是不是有一種消極心態是不是可以告訴我們像國人說明目前未管制的範圍到底環境部如何促進其檢探的給委員報告就是說外界因為不清楚所以有一些誤解"},{"start":2750.439,"end":2762.919,"text":"那事實上我們最主要目的是要讓企業去推動自主減碳特別是假如能夠根據歐盟的SBT部長因為我實現有限齁因為這邊前一陣子你們在開會"},{"start":2765.601,"end":2790.803,"text":"講了好像很多優惠誘因折扣非常非常大這句話讓我們覺得蠻擔心的吼那所以先問一個覺得你今天很高興聽到你們審議委員會已經組成了想問一個我每次很看政府的這種寫的法條都非常的好到時候公民團體要多少因為我想問你的政府學者民間團體跟工商團體的比例到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":2791.243,"end":2801.575,"text":"可不可以在這邊說明一下給林委員報告我們這一次21位委員裡邊專家學者占8名那民間團體裡邊有工商團體環團以及專業團體譬如說像會計師"},{"start":2809.404,"end":2830.783,"text":"另外工商團體以及環團環的好像是有3位還是4位：比例也還蠻高的公民團體跟工商團體的差異大概比例上公共常常就很多公民團體關心環保他如果都不能進來跟你討論的話就不能夠切中要害"},{"start":2831.804,"end":2851.18,"text":"但是我們還有專家寫者以及政府這個部位我目前所聽到的我們昨天公布的名單事實上好像應該社會也還蠻認同的因為我們涵蓋各個層面那我們當然希望說委員會能夠考量多面的因素"},{"start":2851.82,"end":2852.3,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2889.379,"end":2911.278,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長請部長部長你好部長你朋友啦嘛所以你到高中之前都你朋友嘛你朋友空氣這麼好所以你18歲以前你的肺部是沒有被汙染的"},{"start":2912.193,"end":2912.553,"text":"那是沙塵暴吧?"},{"start":2930.988,"end":2949.593,"text":"包括沙塵暴也有包括工業的污染因為到冬天都吹北風到東北風所以我們中南部我個人身為中南部的一份子我覺得中南部事實上是還蠻受到影響的這個就是這一張slide"},{"start":2951.913,"end":2975.249,"text":"這一張是從高雄看到我們屏東的大武山北大武跟南大武那天這樣大家屏東觀眾跳到大家開心到因為難得看到這麼清楚的因為那天吹南風南風吹得很強把那個空都飛掉了下一張這就是平常時的屏東臨風啦 屏東就是這樣 沒錯"},{"start":2980.533,"end":3004.726,"text":"越來越嚴重看到這麼糟糕的空氣汙染我們憲政委員很高興我是覺得他們是搞不清狀況每次人去到屏東 因為屏東沒水 只有海而已因為看沒水 每天都有沙沙"},{"start":3006.598,"end":3011.862,"text":"那你看看這全部都是高雄那些尤其是臨盆那些新達港、秘密、馬達林、火力發電廠、臨岩港、中港這些排碳、PM2.5、PM10"},{"start":3028.004,"end":3052.901,"text":"你是念奈米科技的齁所以齁你應該這個這很清楚齁那我們高屏東的肺腺癌很高非常高齁我不知道是不是全球第一啦齁你看看你看以前是紫 紫豹現在是紅點啦因為怕紫豹不好看齁所以都要把那個標準降低齁你看 這樣都是在這沿海這一帶所以我這裡要"},{"start":3056.905,"end":3065.082,"text":"問部長新達火力發電廠的二氧化碳CO2的排放量是台灣第幾名"},{"start":3066.574,"end":3093.871,"text":"根文報告事實上新達火力化電廠已經在去年全部替換燃煤以燃氣來用乾淨的煤是不是我們總統講的用天然氣的已經全部都轉換了所以我們也非常感謝經濟部台電真的非常努力事實上新達火力化電廠已經沒有再燃煤了都是用燃氣新達火力化電廠的排碳量是全台灣第二名"},{"start":3095.032,"end":3107.533,"text":"全世界113名中鋼是全世界141名這都很嚴重的然後清達福利化電廠大林福利化電廠百分之40的電北送"},{"start":3108.872,"end":3124.157,"text":"南電北送然後這個電廠一般火力化電廠25年他已經39年40年還在搞當然你說換機族這樣是算新的還算舊的我也搞不清楚所以我們高屏尤其是屏東"},{"start":3125.177,"end":3151.55,"text":"沒有享受到好處,阿整個風阿捏,像你剛才講的,要背過來,齁,隆隆背去屏東,阿中安山脈兩千多公尺要把他擋住,所以我們從潮州、屏東、太湖,阿捏,到來義,迷迷茂茂,阿以為每天都阿捏,萌萌飄飄阿捏,以為是三藍之氣,結果都是空汙。部長,阿你要怎麼做?你新的補定,你就要看要怎麼做,沒有,我們要繼續騷擾他嗎?"},{"start":3154.46,"end":3180.3,"text":"給蘇緣報告這一點我感同身受所以像最近昨天包括我們跟NASA的空屋策戰的那個就是選定高雄跟屏東因為我們看過去這些年來的一個紀錄真的是高屏地區空屋的情況特別嚴重秋冬季節這個吹北風東北風就跑到南部來那"},{"start":3181.601,"end":3207.321,"text":"春夏,事實上我們東南沿岸這些東南亞國家他們燃燒森池吹西南風,說真的也是第一個受害方式。 完整,大廳也偷偷,大廳也偷偷啦。我們屏東的空汙補助會跟國融也比不上國融。所以我們要第一次要求屏東的空汙補助要提高。第二,我今天有提案"},{"start":3208.443,"end":3213.803,"text":"我們今天要做提檢,尤其是新費功能的,要給我們補助"},{"start":3214.861,"end":3220.564,"text":"我們盡量來配合我覺得這個是應該做某一個程度的補助我是心中外科醫生PM2.5就是跟癌症、心血管疾病PM10就是跟PM2.5、PM10有關係再來就是不應症那都有絕對的關係"},{"start":3242.838,"end":3267.043,"text":"現在年輕女性就是乳癌肺腺癌藍的也是肺腺癌都越來越高而且越來年輕化所以我一直在羨慕我們部長你是從在澎湖享受好的空氣所以我今天的提案也跟你報告再來就是那個海灘先明年後年要開始收稅了對不對"},{"start":3268.393,"end":3272.721,"text":"碳費對那一年要五六千億台幣是真的嗎沒有啦哪裡有到五六千億沒有勒"},{"start":3278.018,"end":3298.044,"text":"你如果說是差不多說三百塊一棟三百塊一棟也差不多四百億還是多少全台灣的對就全台灣因為我們現在分階段首先是對排碳量超過2.5萬噸每年針對這大戶大概550家"},{"start":3303.97,"end":3326.99,"text":"接下來實施一段時間之後這個門檻可能會來檢討會繼續往下那終究我們就是覺得要進齡必須要全民運動光靠企業也不夠但是根據我們的資料的確是排蛋大戶大概是這550家就佔了將近75%所以當然是要先從這一塊來處理"},{"start":3330.273,"end":3355.166,"text":"我們屏東一年的空氣污染是超過168天一年是一半都是紙棒所以部長接下來我會緊盯著環保環境支援部我會盯著緊緊的再來我們講屏東我們那個高鐵特定區那邊我昨天特別質詢我們"},{"start":3357.435,"end":3383.977,"text":"相關的單位你看到這個是屏東高鐵站 紅紅一堆那些民洋常常爆炸的所在都要離一公里而已 一公里通啊所以這家的化工廠我昨天要求那個勞動部一定要加強契合阿你環環保環環境支援部家有得有得就沒有有得跟著monitor或者是"},{"start":3385.726,"end":3411.869,"text":"來我們謝署長報告一下好了報告委員因為高鐵特定區它是屬於關鍵基礎設施所以在災防法下來交通部本來在關鍵基礎設施就有一個計畫我們會參與裡面另外高鐵站附近就是民航國際這裡也有運作獨奧的廠商所以我們會把它涵蓋在裡面那現在都是監控訓練之類的都在做所以這個地方要特別用心因為這個地方我們保料啊現在鐵都給我們保料"},{"start":3414.838,"end":3424.426,"text":"為地為碗,為事的也為碗,這個一定要加強,我一定會盯著,好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇委員。好,謝謝蘇委員。接下來請陳金輝委員。"},{"start":3446.205,"end":3452.43,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早安我也是想請部長請學部長部長對剛剛呼應所有人提到的啦"},{"start":3460.871,"end":3490.291,"text":"空污環境污染絕對跟我出生是不孕症醫師嘛息息相關息息相關我們現在已經證實男性女性的生殖功能下降都與空污水污染塑化劑等等全部都連在一起的對所以我個人是非常重視人口永續還有您這一本提到的永續議題我今天也穿了這個廢棄牛仔褲這我就職當天穿的"},{"start":3490.811,"end":3512.756,"text":"會議員．"},{"start":3514.824,"end":3535.109,"text":"我們的會議回收應該是還算不錯是不是請我們大署長針對這個來跟我們沒有不錯等一下我直接把數據給你看我們非一回收從2016到2022是燃燒很多非一的焚壞就一的焚壞是因為"},{"start":3536.469,"end":3557.776,"text":"現在快時尚所以我們的衣服淘汰得很快你回收已經沒有人要穿了再來因為快時尚所以這些衣服質料並不是好的就算回收大家也不會去穿給陳委員報告最主要是現在過去一段時間大家在衣服的設計他是使用多種的材料"},{"start":3558.752,"end":3574.936,"text":"那回收事實上很希望的是單一的材質比如說PET好具子類的那因為過去的觀念不一樣那現在環境部在推動的就是使用單一的材質那這樣就可以提升回收的比例啦"},{"start":3575.196,"end":3591.869,"text":" ．"},{"start":3592.59,"end":3598.834,"text":"對所以我幫你把它叫出來我們112年12月頒發這個聯索品牌服飾業及百貨零售的紡織品循環指引歡迎業者踴躍參加成為永續時尚的聯盟成員嗎是結果呢我們全台灣聯索品牌289個"},{"start":3613.985,"end":3616.308,"text":"這個誠意工廠紡織4511家可是根據我詢問你們環境部的回覆數據目前只有6個廠商來申請請問這樣算是踴躍參加嗎"},{"start":3630.798,"end":3652.967,"text":"應該是有很大的努力空間那我給部長幾個建議好不好你看一下你要參加這個指引啊你每半年還要提供一個報告所以沒有業者廠商會想要做這種自願性增加工作來成為你們的永續時尚聯盟的成員啊"},{"start":3653.607,"end":3671.904,"text":"如果當然部長你很忙啦但如果你有空到UNIQLO到這個無印良品走一走你會發現很多業者已經自發性的設了一個永續專區裡面有這些回收布料做成衣服他們自己做自己打自己的品牌他們沒有在理你這個欸他們參加這個沒有好處啊"},{"start":3681.289,"end":3689.155,"text":"對不然你半年寫字報告誰願意但現在非常多自發性的業者如果你有空你可以去走一走也應該要去獎勵他們"},{"start":3690.968,"end":3714.704,"text":"另外另外我們看一下自從COVID疫情之後其實全球全台灣消費習慣都轉為電商你也知道這個電商呢零售業網路包裝喔每年可以產生五萬公噸的包裝廢棄物像網路這個購物是大家的日常這一點"},{"start":3715.99,"end":3726.016,"text":"我們今天的報告裡面著墨甚少但其實這是全台灣人的消費習慣我希望未來你們相關措施在哪裡"},{"start":3727.25,"end":3728.91,"text":"台灣的電商有15萬家喔"},{"start":3756.991,"end":3777.838,"text":"跟我們報告那我們在那個網購包裝部分那我們在前幾年實施的第一階段已經把它法制化就是有一個強制規定它的一個包裝比例還有材質那另外就是第二階段因為要做更精進的做法所以是一個先來這個資源去推動那未來會以這個強制的方式來做這邊也給你一個建議因為現在呢"},{"start":3778.658,"end":3803.089,"text":"現在小女生他們自己在家裡客廳就可以成立一個工作室所以他們其實C2C的賣東西非常容易你現在只有找一些大的電商他只是提供一個平台但很多人是自己賣東西這個你是管不了的所以你也必須要想辦法去管這些C2C的個人賣家很多很多因為現在青年創業"},{"start":3804.229,"end":3818.77,"text":"的門檻降低了所以大家在家裡直播就可以賣東西了然後就會造成大量的汙染再來部長你自己有使用過這個循環杯嗎因為你今天的書面這個報告也有提到循環杯"},{"start":3820.72,"end":3844.111,"text":"是我其實都是帶著自己的杯子是所以你去買飲料像我就大量外食嗎所以你去買飲料你去問你去問店員真的你實地考察每一個店員都跟我說沒有用沒有人用循環杯你自己的報告也講不出循環杯推出以後到底的用量是幾次但是你有講到"},{"start":3844.571,"end":3863.391,"text":"大家自己帶杯子提高到16%這個非常好可是你循環杯製造了很多垃圾喔我詢問每一個店員店員都說因為顧客覺得很髒啊每個人都不知道這個循環杯幾個人喝過啦所以你的利益很良好但他現在使用率極低啊"},{"start":3865.441,"end":3880.241,"text":"給委員報告的確這個民眾他是對這個衛生考量所以他會比較有一點排斥不過假如從這個我們把這個一次性的這些"},{"start":3881.783,"end":3908.637,"text":"這個飲料杯的減少的量來看事實上過去這幾年大概從15%我給你一個具體的建議循環杯什麼狀況最適合比如說大的商辦他下面有咖啡店上面有幾十家公司他每天上班的時候買循環杯上去下班丟而不是我們現在路邊隨便的零售飲料店都在弄循環杯你這樣是不切實際的"},{"start":3909.938,"end":3932.668,"text":"所以你應該要把它分類到底誰才會真的用到所以下一個剛剛講到說的確你一定要提供誘因嘛所以你一定要實質的去補助獎勵這些有用分解材質或者是有再生材質這些技術的國內的廠家再來你應該要要求他提高這些再生材質的比率到多少啊"},{"start":3933.288,"end":3959.976,"text":"然後最後我看到你們有超多種的標章有衣服的有飲料的有這個包裝的你應該要把它統一啊你應該要做一個有公信力的永續標章然後不要讓我們喝喝個東西要找這個標章穿衣服要找那個標章對其實它就是一樣的概念啊是吧謝謝陳文的建議事實上這一點我們正有在進行當中"},{"start":3961.517,"end":3978.862,"text":"對勇氣就是說把不同的標章看因為現在從新聞裡面都還看到說你們每一個細項都還是分不同的標章其實大家會一片混亂好對這個我們來最後我想要呼應剛剛林月琴委員質詢的題目好我們看一下你明天就要開這個審議會了嗎是對這是去年的新聞喔"},{"start":3992.202,"end":4001.586,"text":"去年1月修正三讀氣候法說半年內會提出所有碳費的執法"},{"start":4003.171,"end":4022.237,"text":"啊這是今天你提出來的簡報今天我們重要執法的修訂進度有三項全民最關心的一個是碳費收費辦法含收費對象第二個收費對象指定減量目標第三個自主減量計劃審核辦法"},{"start":4024.057,"end":4035.412,"text":"這三個你上面寫社會溝通中去年1月你說半年內要全部提出來現在我們已經過了兩個半年又過了三個月了但是還在社會溝通中"},{"start":4036.977,"end":4052.621,"text":"給委員報告因為環境部也是去年8月22才成立的所以這期間事實上有一段是主改的過程對整個這個環境部的業務推動事實上是有一點點的確遲緩因為剛剛講嘛去年的2月15號總統公佈去後變遷因應法"},{"start":4058.803,"end":4081.173,"text":"那8月22號環境部成立那我也想問因為您剛回答林委員說你不知道合理的收費多少後來又跟蘇委員說300塊所以你們明天舉個例子舉個例子說假如因為蘇委員說四五千億一年可以收四五千億所以你們明天會不會給我們一個具體的收費辦法會不會"},{"start":4083.537,"end":4107.93,"text":"因為所有人都很關心他影響我們物價指數 事實上大家關心的是費率而已 收費辦法應該是 明天會訂嗎 費率不會明天出來 因為明天才第一次委員見面 大家總是要互相溝通 那環境部也要告訴他們整個背景過程大概怎麼樣 那真的這個對於國內許多廠商非常的麻煩 他訂不出他的成本"},{"start":4109.414,"end":4110.174,"text":"我們請下一個委員黃秀芳委員謝謝主席我們請薛部長"},{"start":4137.34,"end":4151.404,"text":"市長,我想針對我們的廢棄物的政策來跟這個部長這邊來討論。看到前兩天部長有到那個外埔綠能生態園區去會館嗎?是。你是去看黑水嗎?還是?"},{"start":4154.535,"end":4170.866,"text":"不是給黃文報告,事實上我去年11月17號因為我知道說外埔力能生技園區是國內第一個利用這個生廚宜去做早期花店,把它變成能源化"},{"start":4171.286,"end":4198.679,"text":"我覺得這個是一個非常好的案例結果我去了之後瞭解情況在早期發電方面的確已經開始在發電而且累計將近990萬瓦這個990萬度非常好可是他的問題是他產生的早雜早業都還要花很多錢硬到外面去處理那我個人覺得這個是不符合循環經濟的概念"},{"start":4199.94,"end":4218.951,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4219.311,"end":4236.922,"text":"跟台中市政府環保局建議你們一定要這樣做你不能把這些早雜早月月送到外面去每年要花好幾百萬我個人覺得這個那部長我想問一下就是說我們之前的這個廚餘有的是用這個高速廚餘發酵廠"},{"start":4238.763,"end":4258.097,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":4258.397,"end":4286.123,"text":"我不知道你的這個立場是怎樣你現在是希望就是說用養這個黑水芒來去化這個廚餘或者是用另外其他的方式事實上我的概念是希望能夠達到零廢棄事實上廚餘它是現在還蠻珍貴很多人都想要使用廚餘但是使用的方法我個人覺得有改善的空間我們朝兩個方向第一個是能源化"},{"start":4287.21,"end":4303.78,"text":"．"},{"start":4303.88,"end":4333.383,"text":"他是一個非常好的方法目前來講我們的廚藝的處理量能事實上不會有問題事實上是都夠只是很多單位他們所用的方法我個人覺得沒有全面去考量應該把循環經濟的概念所以你們現在要主推這個養黑水盲來區劃廚藝我們衡量了結果我覺得黑水盲真的是非常好的一個循環經濟的案例那我們也看到很多成功的例子"},{"start":4335.445,"end":4349.803,"text":"我想請問一下就是說目前養黑水芒其實還是少量就是說他養的那個還是少量那也是去不是全面性的啦那我想請教部長未來你們要怎麼去推動"},{"start":4351.384,"end":4379.139,"text":"基本上叫業界要馬上改變他以往的習慣事實上是有時候有一些挑戰所以我們現在是過度譬如說以剛剛黃委員講到外埔那個我們也是補助他們去做一個釋放的場域那希望這個可以成功他把他這個廚餘變成能源變成資源那將來國內的各縣市事實上可以以"},{"start":4380.369,"end":4402.38,"text":"臺中外部的這個案例來推廣是那事實上現在包括新北包括像彰化彰化田中對也都有可是他們都是少量啦對但是量都很少是量都還是很少所以這個當然要考量到從經濟的角度來看就是說你產生的這些這個不管是肥料"},{"start":4403.28,"end":4419.187,"text":"或者飼料他的去化是不是能夠很順暢是這樣子才能夠解決這個問題所以像我們現在目前有的是直接丟到焚化爐那有的是剛剛講的這個發酵就是廚餘發酵廠去處理那我想問一下你們這個發酵就是說建置這種高速的發酵這個廚餘的發酵你們未來還會繼續推嗎還是就是朝著黑水嗎"},{"start":4432.455,"end":4433.356,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":4462.715,"end":4479.4,"text":"所以得資源的利用當然就是我們在去年選舉的時候有候選人說如果說吃東西就是不留廚餘的話就不用去建這個廚餘廠那當然我覺得這不太可能所以我是想要知道就是說那未來像"},{"start":4480.2,"end":4491.455,"text":"像我們一些人口比較密集的地方如果要設這種黑水盲的這種比如說有的清潔隊各縣市的清潔隊如果說你們要去推的話是不是也要從清潔隊就是說地方環保局"},{"start":4495.66,"end":4520.511,"text":"下去推好各個清潔隊是不是也要有這樣的一個能力來處理這些廚藝如果可以各個環保局自行來處理的話我覺得這個也是不錯的一個想法然後我不知道說部長你的看法是怎樣可以我非常認同這個黃委員剛剛的建議我是這樣清潔隊他們本身也有在收集廚藝那假如有"},{"start":4520.691,"end":4520.711,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":4541.491,"end":4542.251,"text":"事實上我們看過很多黑水盲的養殖場"},{"start":4569.838,"end":4592.597,"text":"大小規模都有甚至家戶也都可以我上一次到宜蘭去參觀一位臺大的石教授他退休他自己弄他事實上也有弄了一個家戶式的處理的方式也是養黑水馬對小跟大大概都可以處理所以這個彈性還蠻大的就是說未來我們會推廣希望說"},{"start":4594.258,"end":4617.952,"text":"這個清潔隊地方環保局共同來推動那希望把它除以把它能源化跟資源化是做最大的利用好因為我們看到目前還是小區域對就是小部分那小規模小部分小規模然後局部的區域在做而已那如果說部長你現在未來的這個方向是這樣的話"},{"start":4618.792,"end":4647.922,"text":"其實我覺得可能要從最基層的可能可以從各地區的這個清潔單這個清潔隊或是環保局這邊來推動那我相信目前像彰化田中鎮這邊他們目前就是有養那聽說這些廚餘他們收的廚餘供這個黑水芒吃有時候都還不夠吃所以我才會說那個廚餘現在事實上反而是供不應求很多人都想要"},{"start":4648.462,"end":4662.95,"text":"好那我們當然希望如果是這樣子的話我們也希望就未來這個廚餘真的是也是我們蠻頭痛的一個一個問題因為每天所產生的這個廚餘真的是非常的多"},{"start":4663.57,"end":4664.01,"text":"好謝謝黃委員的支持謝謝黃委員"},{"start":4691.946,"end":4714.818,"text":"那下一個我們有請那個圖圈及圖委員有請薛部長圖委員好"},{"start":4717.165,"end":4733.347,"text":"學習部長我請問一下因為本期在當桃園市議員的時候就非常關心我們固體再生燃燒SRF的相關議題我想請問一下我們部長那關於SRF燃燒的材質成分裡面有包含哪些"},{"start":4735.241,"end":4737.824,"text":"所以有包含塑膠、廢輪胎、PVC這些裡面都有嘛 對不對對對對好"},{"start":4756.98,"end":4779.321,"text":"那請問一下所以那我們國際上標準的綠能有包含可以燃燒PVC塑膠廢輪胎金屬等事業廢棄物嗎綠能基本上沒有這一塊綠能所以我們表示綠能的標準就是不能燃燒這些有毒物質是不是"},{"start":4780.379,"end":4796.099,"text":"對綠能大概不會這樣而且綠能必須是永續對其實簡單說啦綠能應該就是碳排他要低到趨近於0所產生的電力我們才叫綠能嘛那所以我看一下我們下面這張表格齁"},{"start":4796.9,"end":4818.754,"text":"那我們這個SRF我們燃燒出很多有毒的物質 那我們這個標準我們的綠的含量是人家歐盟的兩倍 共的含量更是高達數十倍 所以我們的SRF根本就不能稱之為綠能乾淨的能源 所以這一點我希望說要跟我們社會大眾來釐清"},{"start":4822.172,"end":4840.482,"text":"我們從來沒有說SRF是乾淨能源沒有所以我們要釐清因為很多人會誤以為我們台灣的SRF好像是綠能所以今天透過部長來瞭解因為SRF它碳排這麼嚴重排放出這麼多有毒的物質所以我們覺得我們這個SRF應該要被抵制"},{"start":4843.664,"end":4867.41,"text":"那我也不知道我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦還有我們經濟部長王美花還打算在我們桃園要蓋3家的SRF發電廠我是希望不要犧牲我們桃園人的費不要用我們的費來發電不過跟土委員報告一下就是說這裡面可能有一些誤解事實上包括歐盟"},{"start":4868.49,"end":4884.061,"text":"美國日本也都有在使用SRF他的著言點不是說他並沒有排放任何包括二氧化碳或者其他沒關係我只要證實SRF不是綠能就好了對對好那所以我們SRF源頭"},{"start":4885.001,"end":4885.882,"text":"我印象中大概29家啦齁"},{"start":4907.971,"end":4929.479,"text":"沒關係我們爭取時間我跟部長報告據我們了解全台灣有53間的製造商有11間的鍋爐使用場那如果這樣不知道我們署長還是我們署長這邊知不知道這麼多的製造商跟這麼多的鍋爐使用場有幾間在桃園"},{"start":4933.622,"end":4953.494,"text":"我們是就這個全國的一個數量統計那因為桃園還有幾個現實好沒關係所以署長這沒關係因為時間的問題我跟大家報因為這我們都調查過有5間製造商在桃園然後有5間的鍋爐使用場在桃園所以本席認為不是說桃園不應該有"},{"start":4954.835,"end":4977.169,"text":"但是你想想看這麼高的比例而且有一半SRF的鍋爐使用場都在桃園我覺得這個完全不符合的使用比例的原則而且我們桃園現在已經有五大火力發電廠現在中油三接工程也在進行而且還打算在我們桃科園區再增加三接SRF發電廠我希望能夠注重我們"},{"start":4981.051,"end":4995.081,"text":"全台灣人民的健康注重桃園人的健康希望我們這個我們環境部能夠重視不要讓我們桃園成為我們全台灣空氣污染的第一名因為這個為桃園的健康我覺得我們應該要在這邊發聲還有請問一下我們一噸SRF這個替代能源替代0.86噸的煤一噸的我們的SRF可以替代0.86噸的煤"},{"start":5010.831,"end":5039.192,"text":"但是SRF的成分比煤更複雜對不對是所以在歐盟來講他們把SRF當作一個產品分類所以他比煤複雜嘛對不對對一定比煤複雜所以我們前面已經討論過燃燒SRF如果沒有管控好會產生很多嚴重的代藥性等有毒的物質那針對這部分我想問一下我們環境部有沒有什麼因應的辦法"},{"start":5042.495,"end":5060.167,"text":"給這個圖文報告事實上以往環境部對SRF的概念是不是從產品端目前針對這有沒有提出辦法有有我們已經想要跟歐盟一樣把SRF分類現在跟在做延伸"},{"start":5060.247,"end":5083.485,"text":"好那我跟部長報告在去年7月的時候你們就說要解決社會大眾的疑慮提出SRF的三個修正法案可是到今年你們的立法計畫完全沒有提出半年過去了所以從部長這邊我知道表示這個法案還沒有提出來對不對給圖文報告因為我的觀念跟以往已經"},{"start":5084.793,"end":5106.407,"text":"還沒有到環境部的時候的做法有改變我告訴他們SRF要做產品分類以往是沒有做產品分類所以部長目前還沒有提出嘛對我只要了解目前還沒有提出嘛對不對我們自己部內已經有把產品分類都做好我希望盡快來提出因為去年台中大理長興能源失智違法製造這個SRF"},{"start":5107.648,"end":5122.477,"text":"然後也沒有做好我們污染防治這違法的情形非常嚴重那我想請問一下環境部知道這個案例嗎給委員報告我們發現以往的確有一些問題就是說包括要增設SRF廠他只輸面"},{"start":5123.749,"end":5137.837,"text":"啊計劃書就好了所以我們現在修訂除了書面審查之外還要現看還要試車都要去看所以又增加後面兩道的關卡所以將來將來會進行三階段審查對不對書審試運轉跟現看對不對是是是那我們這個中央地方會審機制建立了嗎"},{"start":5146.221,"end":5159.487,"text":"有事實上給我們報告這個環境部跟地方環保局事實上關係跟好那請問我們剛剛我們部長講的審查辦法請問公布了沒有然後有幾家已經通過審查辦法了"},{"start":5160.302,"end":5162.582,"text":"公佈了嗎?所以還沒有公佈嗎?現在有沒有哪些廠商已經經過這個辦法審查的?所以其實還沒有正式審查 有廠商已經經過你這審查辦法通過的嗎?"},{"start":5190.248,"end":5204.201,"text":"還沒有嘛對不對所以我說希望我們這個盡快來進行這53家燃料棒的製造商還有11間的鍋爐使用場我們環境部目前看到都還沒有用這個審查機制來加強審查"},{"start":5206.263,"end":5219.581,"text":"我們希望我們能夠盡快來處理因為我相信全台灣目前像我們剛剛講的長芯能源這一類的污染源的未爆彈我相信非常非常多我希望大家未雨綢繆不要像我們蘇丹紅一樣"},{"start":5222.344,"end":5244.812,"text":"明明很多事件都已經知道然後等到民眾檢舉大爆發的時候再來做處理所以希望為了全民的健康請盡快落實我們SRF的審查跟管理的辦法然後檢出我們民眾的疑慮這一部分請我們部長還有同仁盡快來努力好謝謝圖委員好謝謝好謝謝我們的圖委員下一個我們的盧憲一盧委員"},{"start":5259.469,"end":5275.811,"text":"邀請部長邀請學部長還有我們的蔡林宜署長蔡署長劉恩豪我們都知道現在"},{"start":5277.179,"end":5291.087,"text":"而談會是一個比較新的議題可能在全國的國民的教育或者是學生的教育裡面可能也比較少提到這件事情或者說有再提可能他的深度沒有那麼廣那這邊有幾個問題想問"},{"start":5294.349,"end":5317.734,"text":"屬長就說我們並不是歐盟的會員國那根據巴黎的那個Article 6就是第6張文案嗎我們怎麼去取得國際的認同探全交易我們怎麼來交易你們是不是一個初步的規劃或者說取得國際的決定是不是已經有取得了"},{"start":5320.813,"end":5337.328,"text":"我們在去年的7月8號成立的探全交易所在高雄那去年的12月22號就第一筆的國外探全交易就已經推出來的"},{"start":5337.968,"end":5365.66,"text":"那大概今年應該是探險交易所也會把國內的探險去做交易那我想盧委員比較關心的就是說比如說像歐盟的西貝那這些廠商在國內將來繳探費那到底歐盟他會不會承認是不是可不可以抵換那跟盧委員報告因為西貝他本來是去年底要把執行細則"},{"start":5367.361,"end":5392.131,"text":"公布出來結果說真的也沒有公布出來但是根據他西邊的法條裡面只要你在你的國家事實上有官方的憑證你繳了碳費他們就承認就說因為這是我的主要政見裡面所以我還是要跟署長來問一些關於我們原住民的議題下一頁下一頁"},{"start":5398.581,"end":5408.867,"text":"我們都知道說大部分現在可以計算大概都是森林的嗎可以計算有從土壤的有從海洋的有從森林的那森林我知道大概是佔了80%我們下一頁"},{"start":5411.67,"end":5431.47,"text":"那森林的這個所謂的探的那個我們在我們都知道在臺灣我們原住民都居住在高山上也就是說森林的占有我們好像國有林地的大概70%左右是我們原住民的領域所以我想說你們有沒有去計算過傳統領域在這個裡面的"},{"start":5435.255,"end":5445.66,"text":"或是以後在實行探教育的時候我們原住民實際可以取得的一個所謂的利益或者說可以從中間來參與這個部分你們有沒有考量過"},{"start":5447.871,"end":5464.408,"text":"給盧委員報告事實上這個有那因為碳費的這個部分跟碳權就是這個增量額度的這一塊事實上他是跨部會所以盧委員比較關心的特別是森林的這一塊事實上是由農委會在主責"},{"start":5465.509,"end":5485.279,"text":"但是環境部是提供他們一些這個協助包括未來他們建立方法學之後必須經過環境部同意認可大概我們的目前的一個準備期注冊申請階段還有額度申請階段我們目前是在哪一個階段"},{"start":5493.832,"end":5505.149,"text":"我們從兩年前就開始要求排碳大戶就是碳排量超過2.5萬噸每年他必須去做碳盤查"},{"start":5506.391,"end":5528.472,"text":"那過去兩年這500多家事實上都有在進行的那至於中小企業以及2.5萬對以下事實上是沒有但是經濟部跟環境部一直有在輔導鼓勵他們根據環境部給他們一些簡單的公式他們事實上是可以去盤算他們大概每年產生了多少的碳"},{"start":5532.034,"end":5558.917,"text":"因為我們知道在氣候邊遷的因應法裡面我來念一次就是說政府應該與援助民族共同推動及管理援助民族地區的自然碳會對不對?是 那麼下一頁那我說我們這個在指定這個我大概畫紅色圈圈這邊我們的參與的程度到底在哪裡所以可以稍微解釋一下嗎?"},{"start":5561.897,"end":5584.385,"text":"給盧文報告就是說的確一般民眾現在對所謂森林碳會有一點誤解覺得說我有一大片森林那我大概就哇擁有很多的所謂的碳費或者碳權這個事實上不是這樣子我知道所以應該要解釋清楚它的概念是你要取得這個碳權事實上你必須是增加"},{"start":5585.563,"end":5587.424,"text":"一般的民眾是的確有一些誤覺"},{"start":5607.529,"end":5627.278,"text":"我們希望說因為我們原住民族基本上從數千年來都是跟森林生活在一起所以說我們的自然慣習我們的傳統文化都是用很為天的方式在跟大自然共存希望在這個碳的市場裡面我們原住民族不要缺席下一頁"},{"start":5629.792,"end":5630.172,"text":"好,可以"},{"start":5653.322,"end":5672.407,"text":"那我剛昨天拿了一個所謂的我們的這個是選議會的名單裡面從召集人一直到學者專家很多人可是我們沒有應該是沒有一位原住民族的委員在裡面是不是以後可以突破"},{"start":5675.056,"end":5701.053,"text":"給委員報告的確當初在考慮委員的身份並沒有去想到種族的這一塊所以因為你們這個任期是到115年的2月28號是他是一任兩年那未來對希望能再增加好嗎是可以謝謝下一頁好謝謝好沒關係再下一頁"},{"start":5702.267,"end":5726.628,"text":"那我們知道現在已經是到一個所謂的你剛才說的carbon Bank的一個概念了那他有些浮動的一些機制裡面那我來提出一些我的問題因為我也不太懂他在講什麼下一頁請你告訴我什麼叫做Unlimited Banking因為幾乎每一個方法裡面測量的方法裡面都有一個Unlimited BankingUnlimited Banking"},{"start":5734.997,"end":5760.484,"text":"幾乎每一個方法裡面都有個unlimited banking根委員報告就是國際間對於這種自願性碳市場他有一個必須要遵循的這個原則那當然他需要涉及到這個法規的外加性然後也有必須要去注意到這個對於自然生態資源的這個保護沒關係我相信你們回答到我的問題我們有空的時候我們再聊一聊謝謝"},{"start":5761.937,"end":5779.776,"text":"OK好謝謝盧委員好謝謝盧委員現在宣告事項待會林淑芬委員質詢結束之後我們休息10分鐘現在請王育民委員發言謝謝主席我們是不是有請薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":5784.639,"end":5799.402,"text":"好黃委員好部長好好恭喜你成為首任的環境部的部長這個環境部升格是一件大事但是你們的責任也更重大了那首先呢本期就要請教在這一次的蘇丹紅事件當中我們環境部對於這一些工業原料蘇丹紅我們化學物質你們在這一次當中你們有什麼角色或你們沒有做什麼樣事情蘇丹紅是不是你們的"},{"start":5812.705,"end":5813.986,"text":"為什麼他禁止加入到任何食品?"},{"start":5834.494,"end":5862.503,"text":"因為它是在我們毒化物裡面屬於第4類的毒化物因為蘇丹色素是第4級的毒性化學物質所以它含有有毒物質貝列管對不對所以它不應該加到食物當中那本席請問你蘇丹色素它的毒性跟我們的咖啡跟我們的茶它可以類比它可以是同等級嗎"},{"start":5863.884,"end":5884.523,"text":"事實上 咖啡跟茶是你們要列管的 王委員講的那是另外一個分類 它是自然食品的分類 它是屬於第三類的 它是國際IECA的一個標準 所以這兩個事實上是不同 不應該這樣類比對不對"},{"start":5886.384,"end":5910.45,"text":"就有毒物質來講的話蘇丹色素就是有毒物質是你們列管的項目但是咖啡跟茶就不是嘛所以就不應該混為一談我想這件事情透過今天我們跟環境部的討論這個是要給外界一個很明確的訊息絕對不是像這個行政院食安辦的主任這樣子把這個魚目混珠混為一談"},{"start":5911.17,"end":5932.718,"text":"我覺得這樣子是不對的喔是就是不是就不是那蘇丹色素確確實實就是有毒的化學物質而且列為第4屆那本席要請教你關於這一次的蘇丹色素你們沒有去查我們的進口量竟然是你列管嘛齁他的進口量還有他的流向你們這一次有沒有去強化去稽查"},{"start":5933.078,"end":5941.401,"text":"有給網友報告事實上我們都去查了進口總共去年事實上是有39筆由世家來進口進口量才101克"},{"start":5947.756,"end":5972.169,"text":"其中使用量是41克使用到哪些方面去實驗室或者一些染色劑所以都沒有加到在臺灣都沒有把蘇丹設施加到食品或者其他的部分這邊跟委員報告事實上自從石安魯環環境部負責化學營化學營是10個部會53個系統都在那裡面是"},{"start":5975.931,"end":5992.789,"text":"自從那個建立之後是台灣就沒有再發生化工顏料加到食品的系統性的案子這一次當然蘇丹紅的案子事實上是在境外他是把他蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面變成"},{"start":5994.298,"end":5994.779,"text":"我希望環境部要把這一塊守好"},{"start":6015.979,"end":6032.983,"text":"但是呢本席發現還有一個漏洞是什麼沒有在你們的毒性化學物質的管理但是他是工業用料有可能還是流向食品比如說2015年發生的這個在胡椒粉當中加入工業用的碳酸鎂那碳酸鎂現在是不是在你們的管制的範圍"},{"start":6039.581,"end":6062.438,"text":"報告委員這一部分其實我們在陸陸續續公告到這一塊的時候我們有特別討論過那這一塊就是說它跟那個合法的食品添加物是同品項就是合法食品添加物也有碳酸酶那如果它身份上沒有去取得衛福部的許可的話它就不是合法食品添加物但是東西是一樣"},{"start":6063.519,"end":6071.831,"text":"對東西講所以我們的管理面啊就從經濟部經濟部這邊他也會有申報是啊我們會去勾結說這些會不會留到實名上"},{"start":6072.864,"end":6101.09,"text":"你們現在有在管理嗎有在勾結嗎這個就是本席要求的因為我發現這個之前爆發過食安風暴這些工業原料因為他毒性沒有到達你的管制範圍但是這一類卻又變成是最可能就是被業者拿來添加的所以本席的要求就是你們一定要互相勾結因為現在我們這些食品產生的問題真的是風險就在於說如果主管機關你沒有互相勾結有漏洞那"},{"start":6102.23,"end":6116.618,"text":"有一些不良業者有動他就鑽他就有機可乘他就會違法因為工業原料都是比較便宜的食品節都比較貴他就從當中去賺他的利差所以本期要求這個部分你們一定還要持續強化好不好"},{"start":6117.859,"end":6138.904,"text":"守護我們的食安這個環境部也有相對的責任另外一個本期要關心的是有關於SRF的議題我想我們圖圈級委員也非常的關心他剛剛也有質詢那這個議題本期就看到了我們現在所有的管制作為坦白講非常的鬆散所以之前才會爆發以經濟部為主導他認為可以增加我們的發電量然後呢我們可以"},{"start":6145.106,"end":6166.073,"text":"社然後呢經濟部就一直往前設結果環境部好像沒有辦法去阻止經濟部比如說以桃園的案例來看的話他其實就是他是先長後奏啊居民完全沒有任何可以說部的權利那在部會之間好像環境部你也沒有辦法去要求他"},{"start":6166.963,"end":6184.906,"text":"那他都不用做評估嗎比如說在桃科他附近一公里然後就是有民眾這麼密集的區他想要連蓋三場那這樣子的東西都不需要把關只要經濟部說很好增加我們的發電量那我們就往前衝是這樣子嗎部長"},{"start":6185.988,"end":6200.161,"text":"我給網友報告,事實上不全然是經濟部是目的事業主管機關,縣市政府,可是環境部是負責環評的工作,但是開發單位"},{"start":6202.103,"end":6223.115,"text":"事實上縣市政府也可能是開發單位比如說以桃園桃科這個案例事實上桃園市政府他是開發單位他進駐的是在他整個桃科園區裡面所以事實上桃園市政府他是有權利去決定包括要不要核發他的許可證"},{"start":6223.915,"end":6245.063,"text":"對所以桃園我們也看到嗎好前任市長鄭文燦市長他就贊成嗎就合法到張善任市長他就不同意第三場那所以前後任市長態度就不一致那在中央呢中央的這個呃環境部可以幫人民做什麼樣的把關因為我覺得這個srf他的發電廠之前被爆發就是他排放出來的"},{"start":6245.723,"end":6246.184,"text":"對外說你們要開始公告這個更嚴謹的作業辦法"},{"start":6265.982,"end":6281.107,"text":"防火源報告以往環境部對SRF基本上是從末端管制你只管他排放出來有沒有但前面都已經燒了我們現在修法就是要把SRF做產品的分類"},{"start":6282.247,"end":6307.438,"text":"從源頭就開始分類對於不適合當SRF材料就要把它剔除掉所以未來的產品端能夠做源頭控管之後我相信後端再使用就可以減少沒錯本期要要求就是你前端的這個源頭控管其實是最重要的你前端源頭的控管你7月曾經公告就是三項的修正草案"},{"start":6308.098,"end":6336.689,"text":"那你這三項的修正草案包括公司場所固定污染源要什麼符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料然後公司場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例成分標準還有鍋爐空氣污染排放標準三項的修正草案你是要來管制它排放的大躍進但是這個部分你公告之後有開始上路了嗎公告之後有一段時間已經一段時間了去年7月"},{"start":6338.38,"end":6354.073,"text":"過半年了還沒有上路跟委員報告一下在去年預告那個因為之後現在那個SRF在分期所以我們會再加嚴那加嚴目前的進度就是上半年會預告那下半年會把這個辦法出來"},{"start":6354.713,"end":6370.181,"text":"所以還要再拖一年欸不是拖我們現在重點就是說在管制的過程呢除了原先的那個排放標準加嚴之外呢我們污染防事設備根據材料的不同會有一些規範這跟去年預告版本不一樣所以需要一點時間"},{"start":6372.362,"end":6386.728,"text":"我希望這一個部分要加快速度另外一個就是說你重新公告之後那以前舊廠已經設的這一些你要怎麼去輔導他們他可能就不符合你的標準我們給他一段時間去改善設施那之後就要按照新的法規來執行"},{"start":6387.628,"end":6407.399,"text":"好因為我發現現在你們對於SF製造商的這個管制一個是鬆散一個是你看這個網站上公告的資料就是也是有點哩哩啦啦就是自己填然後很多其實都是空白所以這個部分我要求一定要加嚴管制因為"},{"start":6409,"end":6431.341,"text":"國外可以做得到的我相信我們臺灣也可以做得到但我們不能做半套或者是做的事不像然後明為是好的再生能源發電廠但結果排放出來可是對於整個環境又造成第二度的傷害這個是絕對不允許的那我希望這個部長你新上任你用你的專業跟你的魄力把這一塊好好的整頓起來"},{"start":6432.102,"end":6448.87,"text":"然後讓這個SRF他將來真的是既可以發電又可以幫助我們做部分的減碳那這個才是真正的目標好不好好謝謝王委員謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝王委員接下來我們邀請那個王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請薛部長薛部長"},{"start":6463.766,"end":6470.661,"text":"好 王委員好部長好恭喜您擔任首屆的環境部部長謝謝"},{"start":6473.928,"end":6496.823,"text":"其實我們也都知道目前不論是一般的廢棄物或者是事業廢棄物國內處理這些廢棄物的量能都相當的緊繃不敢說嚴重不足不過至少非常緊繃所以如何能夠提升再利用率落實這個循環永續我認為這是一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":6498.533,"end":6505.799,"text":"那本期來自醫界是所以呢就特別關注這個醫療事業廢棄物的處理問題那我們發現啦在3年前2021年的時候有針對於這個醫療廢棄物處理的費用"},{"start":6517.208,"end":6543.373,"text":"在短時間裡面被大量調高的問題那我們也瞭解根據審計部的審查結果因為這個生物醫療廢棄物處理的成本相對是比一般廢棄物還要高10倍到20倍那個時候南投醫師工會就發現說有一個地區醫院被環保公司在處理的過程當中很短的時間漲價了4倍"},{"start":6545.673,"end":6556.885,"text":"從原來每公噸7000元變成破了兩萬塊齁那這個是一個短時間很大的衝擊那我們很擔心的就是透過這種"},{"start":6559.234,"end":6581.153,"text":"護膽成本增加以後那會不會為了要緊縮這些廢棄物的使用所以呢就會讓這個成本希望能夠緊縮之下造成了這個醫療品質的下降那這部分未來萬一又有同樣狀況發生的時候那不知道環境部學部長這邊有沒有哪一些因應的措施"},{"start":6582.336,"end":6596.653,"text":"我想因為那個是發生在20212011年那我們剛剛賴署長也跟我反映說事實上環境部那時候是環保署事實上也有下去協助那我個人覺得就是說"},{"start":6597.834,"end":6614.68,"text":"現在的醫療院所的確在經營上也是相當的挑戰那特別處理醫療會期務這一塊他的單價也的確比較高那假如同剛剛王委員剛剛所提到的突然之間一下漲那麼高我個人覺得是比較"},{"start":6615.64,"end":6635.742,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6636.158,"end":6665.581,"text":"那我們實際上的各個醫療院所報出來大概是3100多噸而已啦所以事實上量能來講事實上是足夠的是是不過如果依照部長您所說的這個處理量我們看下一張的資料我們可以發現其實廢棄物目前齁目前的量還是會遠超過您所提到的"},{"start":6666.121,"end":6681.019,"text":"因為依據看到的數據是每一年會有11萬餘噸的這些醫療廢棄物可是目前的利用率只有21%所以這部分好像有一些落差我們很期待說如果能夠有更"},{"start":6683.941,"end":6708.332,"text":"對於未來貴婦提供這些量的處理還可以再加強那為什麼這個廢棄物的使用回收率利用率會下降我想我們了解一個很重要的原因之一呢就是第一時間沒有做有效的分類回收那我們也了解其實臨場現場的這些醫療工作人員要做這些"},{"start":6710.663,"end":6736.268,"text":"市民會計務的分類回收面臨相當的困難而且他有些時間上的壓力所以如果能夠有效的利用一些方法來改善這個第一時間的分類的話相對應該是可以節省人力那同時又可以創造回收率所以針對一才的結構或者是才子進行創新讓這個回收的方便性提高的話"},{"start":6737.428,"end":6752.795,"text":"這一部分不知道環境部部長這邊有沒有可以做鼓勵或輔導業者來進行這方面的創新。好謝謝王委員的關心的確包括在上一個會期也有人提到在這個醫療領域的確在ESG在這一塊"},{"start":6757.077,"end":6780.243,"text":"外部來講在過去比較沒有啊這個一例去處理這一塊那環境部在一月十幾這一塊特別是啊資源的回收再利用啊以及啊進行排放這一塊我們事實上是啊這個有很多的資源也可以去應用然後那所以我也這個回應黃委員就是說這一塊我們跟衛福部"},{"start":6781.223,"end":6805.278,"text":"來密切合作希望再資源回收利用這一塊可以更進一步來精進因為我們現在跟衛福部在推動包括醫療院所來進行ESG推動的這一塊所以我想謝謝王委員你特別重視這一塊那我覺得這一塊環境部未來應該可以跟衛福部那來共同來"},{"start":6806.258,"end":6806.438,"text":"主席"},{"start":6822.924,"end":6843.833,"text":"太原前立委針對於醫療體系的永續發展非常關心這個議題所以他在去年也發表相關的文章期待醫療體系對溫室氣體排放的影響能夠再多盡一份心力因為依據統計我們發現醫療部門碳排放占全球"},{"start":6844.933,"end":6873.396,"text":"整體全球的醫療部門對於全球淨排放的這個比例高到4.4%那臺灣相較之下是還高於國際平均值從4.4變成4.6那一年會創造差不多20億噸的二氧化碳所以這個部門這部分其實醫療部門相對於對全球的碳排放也需要負一些責任那這部分"},{"start":6875.057,"end":6890.907,"text":"覺得醫療院所有沒有在進行哪一方面的改善措施部長您所瞭解跟王委員報告就我所知道因為上會期很多委員都關心這個議題那衛福部的薛部長事上他也對這個委員來報告說他們會"},{"start":6894.509,"end":6918.493,"text":"要求特別是醫學中心等級的他有領頭羊的效果他們應該未來在年度的報告裡邊要把ESG的這一塊納進去包括去盤點醫院碳排的部分以及能源的使用效率的提升事實上是非常重要我覺得這一塊可能是醫療院所可以馬上來進行的部分"},{"start":6919.253,"end":6942.891,"text":"所以若實ESG的永續發展應該是目前國家的重大政策是那我們看一下如果這個醫學中心要配合相關的發展的話那我們可以從他的這個五大任務裡面去做哪一些的要求我們可以看到在最後一項配合國家政策來肩負社會公益責任那未來環境部"},{"start":6943.852,"end":6953.746,"text":"除了剛剛所提到的以外那有沒有更好的這個角色可以來加強或者是如何能夠讓兩個部會之間有更好的合作關係"},{"start":6955.578,"end":6982.47,"text":"有關這個近鄰排放的這一塊喔事實上我們的氣候變遷署事實上有提供一些輔導跟支援的措施我們國家環境研究院也有做一些人才的培育我們的資料顯示的確醫療院所去參與包括近鄰排放的課程的人數真的是比較少那我們也很希望說這些醫學中心的"},{"start":6984.111,"end":7002.91,"text":"主責人員應該可以跟環境部來聯繫環境部來提供包括做人才的培訓讓他變成我們未來醫療中心的一個總製把這個近年排放的概念推展到整個醫療院所的每個角落"},{"start":7004.257,"end":7024.045,"text":"主席,我可不可以再多兩分鐘,謝謝。其實我們也知道目前根據剛剛這個部長的說明,其實在醫學中心往下看就可以了解,很多的醫學中心都執行走在很前面,不管是臺大,馬街"},{"start":7026.192,"end":7052.767,"text":"或者是星光甚至是長庚體系事實上都做了非常多相關的這方面的要求那也希望從永續發展的部分進一份的這個社會責任那我們再來看最後的一部分空污問題我相信剛剛已經有很多的委員也請教過部長那針對空污問題因為我來自一屆"},{"start":7054.048,"end":7081.708,"text":"也知道癌症對國人的影響空污問題如果能夠有機會做更好的處理的話可以減少這個癌症的發生肺癌是很重要因素所以空污問題所造成的問題我們很希望環境部這邊能夠更有效的來處理那包括剛剛盧委員有提到這個開發行為引起這個空污的部分如何能夠在修法的過程裡面"},{"start":7082.808,"end":7101.458,"text":"而針對於這些底範的原則能夠更周延也期待部長這邊針對這個各地的需求再做多做考量以上好謝謝我們會來努力謝謝王委員接下來有請我們的那個林淑芬林委員"},{"start":7115.205,"end":7119.047,"text":"我們有請林德夫委員謝謝主席也謝謝林淑香林委員"},{"start":7139.989,"end":7148.049,"text":"是不是我們請環境部的部長 薛部長林委員好"},{"start":7149.864,"end":7178.244,"text":"學部長我請問你因為環保團體一直認為說固體再生燃料SRF原料還有毒燴氣物燃燒會製造有害的健康的空污這個招環團的批評是假綠能請問環境部推動固體的再生燃料SRF轉燴為能將燴氣物燃料化的政策目標"},{"start":7179.605,"end":7200.737,"text":"你們會不會改變阿?跟林委員報告齁我們已經積極在進行了對阿不行就要改變阿你不能讓它繼續存在阿已經把它視為產品所以從產品的角度來做分類那產品就會歸換到這個顏料裡面不可以含有那些"},{"start":7201.757,"end":7229.884,"text":"因為確實這是有問題的啦因為過往曾發生過知名的這些廠商空污排放的數據造假那也有公家單位資源回收廠技工勾結一些不肖的業者直入特定的電腦程式來短報這個廢棄物的重量這些案子都是利用儲管機關疏於對後端整個監測電腦的數據查核才讓不法人士能夠得逞"},{"start":7231.224,"end":7252.165,"text":"那請問環境部如何要求燃燒SRF的業者符合相關這個空污排放的標準地方稽查人力適否有沒有充足如何去落實輔導避免這些業者造假在電腦數據裡面來動手腳適否動用這個空污基金等等那你有什麼看法"},{"start":7253.966,"end":7282.154,"text":"委員報告吼的確剛剛委員所提到的一些問題我們也發現到了所以從去年我們就開始來研擬修改整個SRF包括它的製造跟未來使用SRF排放標準的一個改變那以往事實上是沒有去做SRF產品的分類所以的確會讓業者吼裡面甚至有夾雜著一些"},{"start":7282.774,"end":7311.632,"text":"所以說那些稽查的工作很重要好不好那個這一次新北深耕火災因為這個燒毀了大量這個鋰電池的產品引發惡臭而且有環保團體一直認為說環保機關能夠全面性的檢討火災這些空氣的品質的監測項目如戴歐鑫等等那請問環境部是否會檢討調整這個空氣品質嚴重惡化警告來發布及緊急防治的辦法"},{"start":7312.591,"end":7329.749,"text":"跟委員報告深坑發生這個不幸的火災事件那根據當時包括周遭環境的空氣品質的監測事實上他是沒有超過這個污染的排放標準"},{"start":7331.531,"end":7341.624,"text":"但是因為惡臭的味道影響了很多的居民所以整個晚上幾乎都不能睡覺那這裡面當然是一個科學上的挑戰你們應該要弄一個管理的機制啦"},{"start":7350.154,"end":7366.697,"text":"那會後提供書面資料給本席好不好最後一題2050年淨民排碳的目標已經訂出後交通部表示說2025年電動公車的占比要達到35%那環境部的空污基金113年度計畫編列差不多5億來補助這些業者購買電動公車以提高電動公車的普及率"},{"start":7375.759,"end":7391.971,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7392.171,"end":7417.516,"text":"跟交通部好好的合作以提高這些業者購買電動公車的意願早日達成淨零排碳的目標好謝謝好不好給林委員報告那個我們跟交通部的分工是這樣子啊汰換電動車的這一塊由交通部負責營運以及基礎設施的建設是環境部來負責好啦你們分工要把它做好啦好不好謝謝好謝謝林委員好謝謝"},{"start":7421.288,"end":7424.63,"text":"主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長薛部長"},{"start":7445.18,"end":7458.012,"text":"部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資在法這個"},{"start":7459.113,"end":7481.283,"text":"而草案的第三條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後"},{"start":7483.624,"end":7486.706,"text":"在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要淋廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行"},{"start":7502.979,"end":7511.284,"text":"而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以"},{"start":7521.971,"end":7538.166,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7538.406,"end":7562.713,"text":"我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能"},{"start":7564.854,"end":7585.707,"text":"一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、儲物與動植物、殘骸、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源"},{"start":7586.647,"end":7601.137,"text":"我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第12、45條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":7616.607,"end":7621.129,"text":"所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界執以假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩"},{"start":7638.999,"end":7651.093,"text":"環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把"},{"start":7658.161,"end":7673.047,"text":"你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以"},{"start":7674.602,"end":7698.515,"text":"我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們是為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情但是部長你還沒有來SRF環境部"},{"start":7701.112,"end":7707.599,"text":"當時 到現在我看起來也差不多啦 老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股"},{"start":7717.57,"end":7744.056,"text":"環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家"},{"start":7747.438,"end":7751.122,"text":"就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題不是爐渣抵渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品"},{"start":7764.175,"end":7785.652,"text":"現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含氯量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我記一下"},{"start":7789.415,"end":7814.197,"text":"人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是"},{"start":7815.222,"end":7843.567,"text":"是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個韓綠的你知道韓綠的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括耐耗鋅等等一些耐耗鋅沒錯對啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2"},{"start":7844.947,"end":7845.948,"text":"林委員報告,事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在"},{"start":7868.413,"end":7882.171,"text":"但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對是我們的"},{"start":7883.353,"end":7884.834,"text":"對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改"},{"start":7910.985,"end":7926.644,"text":"我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SF從產品做分類了那產品做分類"},{"start":7928.265,"end":7937.01,"text":"這裏製造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裏面你沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現刊試車的時候要看那個都是末端的那我要問你現行的裏面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢"},{"start":7949.096,"end":7963.127,"text":"也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費契約清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎"},{"start":7967.05,"end":7987.579,"text":"給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向啦所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然"},{"start":7991.84,"end":8021.44,"text":"那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子"},{"start":8024.52,"end":8042.864,"text":"所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼"},{"start":8054.565,"end":8071.98,"text":"主要人家都是在處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實是處理生活垃圾為大宗"},{"start":8073.263,"end":8089.215,"text":"主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們的焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質注意好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物"},{"start":8093.606,"end":8115.591,"text":"那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後此選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來"},{"start":8116.411,"end":8139.823,"text":"然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質分選不合格的含慮多的燒出來會有代號新的不能放進去即便那麼花錢去買廢棄物那些廢棄物都買來的但是不符合標準就不燒你看你們的許可裡面你們連這個公告為一定要回收的這些塑膠"},{"start":8141.331,"end":8167.496,"text":"所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉"},{"start":8168.616,"end":8192.954,"text":"那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF"},{"start":8193.855,"end":8209.034,"text":"所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講"},{"start":8210.496,"end":8235.733,"text":"PETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎那我現在在講喔抱歉主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的"},{"start":8238.095,"end":8244.76,"text":"而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉"},{"start":8267.415,"end":8283.581,"text":"所以這倒退路啊我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的"},{"start":8284.481,"end":8292.967,"text":"我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須在講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能"},{"start":8305.835,"end":8330.291,"text":"假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我在最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜"},{"start":8335.655,"end":8341.402,"text":"我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的"},{"start":8352.236,"end":8364.909,"text":"循環利用的核心價值可是整部法就只有這一句話有提到源頭減量其他通通都沒有源頭減量的方案和政策也沒有跨部會的合作推動源頭減量其實是應該更具體的"},{"start":8368.092,"end":8390.63,"text":"你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長"},{"start":8392.871,"end":8421.031,"text":"我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的"},{"start":8424.281,"end":8426.025,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘"},{"start":9041.445,"end":9055.682,"text":"好繼續開會接下來請鄭天才委員主席各位委員有請部長請學部長"},{"start":9061.035,"end":9088.528,"text":"好 政委好部長好今天特別要請部長環境部針對蘇花安計畫的環評我們先看這個蘇花改蘇花改在民國97年11月10號行政院核定同意台九縣蘇花改的"},{"start":9090.182,"end":9109.079,"text":"可行性的研究。民國99年11月9號兩年就完成的環境影響評估的審查。兩年。我們訪觀這個樹花案,我要特別跟部長講,跟環境部的同仁講,"},{"start":9110.966,"end":9133.457,"text":"蘇花改它的難度更高先做比較困難的蘇花改蘇花安是相對來講是它的難度是比較低的我們看這個蘇花安這個計畫行政院108年核定可行性研究108年現在已經113年還沒有完成環評"},{"start":9140.491,"end":9164.251,"text":"這個是我們公路總局的一個針對舒華安他是東澳到南澳和平到河中河人到崇德這幾個路段好我們看這個公路總局的一個資料108年12月20號核定可行性評估現在辦理原來預計111年環評審查的程序"},{"start":9170.612,"end":9197.128,"text":"所以一百一十一年然後希望一百一十二年完成就是跟過去已經是差很多了一零八就核定了到現在才還在做可行性的還在做環評所以這個部分我們看這個整個期程要跟舒華安難度更高的反而拖這麼久"},{"start":9199.935,"end":9227.666,"text":"所以這個部分從10812月20號可行性研究核定然後公路總局交通部原來預估的是112年要完成環評但是現在被卡關了環評出審這個卡關這個部長你是不是同仁可以說明一下卡關的原因"},{"start":9228.783,"end":9235.073,"text":"好那政委我是不是請我們這個環保司的蔡司長來說明一下整個情況"},{"start":9237.766,"end":9264.187,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子是去年11月21號交通部才把環評的這個俗件送到環境部來去年是12月去年的11月那我們在就如同剛剛委員在畫面上看到了在2月20號我們進行了初審那初審裡面比較關切的大概三個主要有三個議題第一個是"},{"start":9265.288,"end":9283.486,"text":"沿線的山崩地滑的這些的評估那還要再比較詳細的去提出第二個是原民所謂原住民部落的諮商我們所瞭解其中好像還有兩個部落那個原住民的諮商還沒有完成那這個部分那個公路局他會去進行"},{"start":9284.187,"end":9300.876,"text":"那第三個部分是有關的這個在這個路線裡面有經過太魯閣國家公園那所以有涉及到一些生態的敏感區這些所謂的深入的這些的措施希望公路總局再來詳細的補充大概這三個主要問題"},{"start":9303.444,"end":9328.14,"text":"有關我過去也執行過前任的環保署署長到底還平先還是原住民族部落諮商同意先你們一直強調當時一直強調就是還平先沒有什麼先話所以這個部分有關部落諮商同意絕對要辦但是因為這不涉及到你們的業務所以"},{"start":9331.881,"end":9354.647,"text":"環評這個階段不必去談這個所以你們要跟那個環評的委員要告訴他們這是第一個第二個這個難度比舒華改還簡單還容易就拖那麼久所以這個部分你們要設法說服設法說服這些不是說說明啦不要說說明說明清楚"},{"start":9360.609,"end":9388.911,"text":"曾經哈我以前是老公務員哈30年公務員101年開始當立委地球公民基金會我就跟他們談他們以前都反對反對我就告訴他蘇花公路樓長寸斷一下雨小小的雨喔就坍方我說這是你們害的如果當初蘇花公路高速公路你們不卡的話"},{"start":9390.379,"end":9413.201,"text":"成全日本時代本來要抒發公路喔高速公路喔抒發高速公路喔就是因為環評不環保團體我就舉什麼例子呢就舉北回鐵路對不對北回鐵路大颱風大地震都沒有怎麼樣啊這個才是真正的環保啊"},{"start":9414.717,"end":9441.411,"text":"所以這個部分要去說明清楚他自己講的那個剛剛那個司長沒有提到有的環評委員說那個因為那個高價高價你就給他看那個南回南回公務都高價啦現在對不對現在的科技都可以解決環境保護而且更能"},{"start":9443.19,"end":9447.854,"text":"更有環保好不好好我們來努力謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請陳冠廷委員我們請部長請薛部長"},{"start":9471.502,"end":9481.952,"text":"陳維好部長好部長你應該知道今年的4月22號是我們的世界地球日那你知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":9483.956,"end":9501.404,"text":"檢索沒錯是地球與塑膠那其實剛才前一位委員也有針對這個檢索的部分來做出一些評論那我要提醒就是說巴黎協定裡面最重要的國際環境公約裡面全球塑膠公約已經是有第三輪的談判"},{"start":9502.685,"end":9529.746,"text":"那在年底我相信就可能會有結論出爐那是全球的第一個是針對減數做出有法律效率的國際協定那2040年他的目標是60%可是我們攤開數據發現每年政府投入的減量經費大概是在1億元上下是低於末端處理的經費我想請問部長我們目前政策宣示要源頭減量"},{"start":9530.987,"end":9538.84,"text":"但是經費不足我是懷疑要怎麼樣把2030年減量到13.8萬度原生塑膠的真正目標是不是可以請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":9539.947,"end":9567.765,"text":"事實上減速這個大方向是臺灣一定要做的我本來也跟我們同仁提到說今年的世界地球日我們就是應該呼應到聯合國在今年年底應該剛剛成文剛講到這一塊應該要減速這個議題但是因為我們的整個產業發展以及我們的民生的習慣各位可以看到我們基本上現在的礦泉水都還用塑膠"},{"start":9569.066,"end":9594.812,"text":"憑在裝人家國外特別是歐盟歐洲很多國家事實上都用玻璃杯他比較容易在回收嗎吼那所以這一塊我覺得事實上臺灣還有蠻大的一個努力的空間啊對因為我是看過去的20多年來長期以來我們都是用用價以價值量的方式作為手段可是我認為說除了懲罰之外獎勵機制獎勵機制的配套弱勢我認為是源頭呃減速的一個關鍵啊你看我們從"},{"start":9598.533,"end":9622.294,"text":"一八年到二零二四從我們這個資料來這個綠色和平組織裡面的這個他的這個建議書裡面有提到那我們看到說這個經費的差距分別從17倍到63倍那其實是差很多的與其說在行為端上面做改變如果在源頭上面就可以處理的話我相信效益會更好因為我看每一次我們"},{"start":9622.995,"end":9645.112,"text":"主要都針對都是以消費者為導向可是你如果從生產者作為導向做一些原料上面的列舉那有什麼樣的方式可以在經費上面是可以協助他們的我相信這個都是可以幫助到那這一次的支柱法的第7章他是有民電指出就是這個資源環境促進的第7章有明確指出有輔導跟獎勵"},{"start":9646.733,"end":9671.107,"text":"部長在新法上路之前的空中期我可不可以看到黃金部可以提出更主動及其的獎勵辦法這一點我們來努力因為的確這個減速是一個迫在眉睫的議題特別是塑膠違例對整體也有傷害那台灣在使用塑膠的這一塊事實上真的是有一點點"},{"start":9672.468,"end":9700.78,"text":"國度所以我們現在在推包括這個一次性的塑膠基本上我們就是來禁止但是也碰到一些挑戰因為包括在傳統市場在其他的一些場合他是比較屬於跟民生相關那假如大眾沒有來共同配合事實上推動挑戰度是還蠻大特別是傳統市場的這一塊"},{"start":9701.687,"end":9720.199,"text":"對我還是希望就是說部長在提出這種方式的時候也是提出對岸就是說我們不要說因為不方便所以說民眾配合度低那你就提出對岸那民眾覺得說我們同時可以做出友善環境的事情但是同時也能夠符合民眾的便利性好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陳委員好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":9736.127,"end":9752.302,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請薛部長請薛部長好黃偉豪來部長好部長明天我們會開這個所謂的碳費審議會那新聞報導說最快有可能3月底就會公佈碳費的費率有那麼樂觀嗎"},{"start":9754.708,"end":9774.261,"text":"我看明天他們委員會之間溝通情況怎麼樣但總是有一個時間表需要什麼時候碳費要出來吧我們原先的規劃是希望能夠在3月底啦對阿3月底如果現在整個大環境也做了一些改變齁什麼樣的大環境做改變我覺得環境部也有責任"},{"start":9775.468,"end":9793.783,"text":"去納進去考量包括包括像歐盟他本身的西本執行細節事實上去年底也沒有出來美國本來的CCA法案事實上本來也是去年底要出來那有考量到國內的物價嗎對我剛剛講是國外接下來是國內的國內當然我們也看到說經濟部電價這個調整的委員會也很可能會在4月份"},{"start":9804.652,"end":9817.006,"text":"還有包括我們的化石產業石化產業也因為過去這一段日子以來事實上整個中國他的經濟遭受很大的挑戰所以他很多的包括化石鋼鐵產品"},{"start":9819.108,"end":9841.409,"text":"必須要低價傾銷到國際去所以對國內事實上可能ECFA的一些企業也會受到一些影響所以中整國內外都有一些轉變但是我們還是期待說能夠如期來進行包括碳費的執法我們推動從來沒有停過不會因為說現在是看守內閣"},{"start":9850.916,"end":9871.59,"text":"委員會一定會有這個方向嗎會看是說我們主管機關的一個方向那你剛也提到是說經濟部有可能在4月的時候會來調整電價調漲電價那怕會是怕影響到產業的這個成本上升是不是是那但是明年我們當初有講是說是什麼時候開始收收這個碳費"},{"start":9872.39,"end":9896.477,"text":"他的概念基本上類似所得罪的概念嘛 是今年的是明年講對就是費率今年本來預計是3月底要出來然後之後就開始要明年就開始要受今年的攤費嘛 是是不是 是所以那現在我們講比較直接啦部長你剛剛這樣子繞繞了半天我還是聽不太懂所以意思是什麼意思是我們上半年度到底會不會因為本來是3月底嘛"},{"start":9896.977,"end":9906.542,"text":"好那你現在講是說有可能考量到這個電價調漲的部分那4月可是你總是醜媳婦要見公婆啊所以到底什麼時候有一個時間表"},{"start":9908.235,"end":9925.823,"text":"我們的時間表本來是3月底但是這個就是我希望明天探討委員會他們開完會明天應該是處理兩塊一個是時間什麼時候出來嗎那一個是探費的費率嘛是對不對那從一開始我們那時候討論是說有可能是這個一公噸從那個時候有講到100塊500塊到現在還有環保團體講說3000塊對不對那急劇"},{"start":9937.029,"end":9956.736,"text":"這不是笑欸部長這很嚴肅的問題是很嚴肅我們要共同面對啊我知道因為既然2050淨零碳牌我們也已經講出來了氣候變遷印法也在去年我們大家一起努力推動了那現在這個就是棒子跟蘿蔔要拿出來啊是政策工具要出來不過跟黃委員報告吼事實上"},{"start":9957.916,"end":9978.764,"text":"大家會聚焦在碳費事實上對環境部而言我們一直強調我們是要減碳比碳費的徵收更重要碳費徵收他只是一個工具所以這裡面就是如何把配套措施包括各個事業單位他自主減量這個才是我們的重點"},{"start":9979.484,"end":9998.799,"text":"本席可以理解就像很多經濟部他也會講是說看這個電價調漲才會讓大家去珍惜用電當然你這樣講合不合理這見仁見智可是本席現在要確認的是說這畢竟是我們環境部這裡會提出來的一個方案所以到底時間表"},{"start":10001.488,"end":10011.027,"text":"時間表基本上我們是規劃三月底但是執行那如果說真的會有延宕延宕一個月"},{"start":10012.507,"end":10040.647,"text":"兩個月520前能不能確認事實上這個也是另外一個聲音嘛就如同洪委員我們之前在立案總執行的時候也有一些委員覺得說現在的看守內閣什麼都不可以去做那這個不是看守內閣不能做是重大決策不應該現在去做但是這一個部分碳稅碳費的部分是之前就已經核定那你當然要有時間表出來啊"},{"start":10041.027,"end":10064.109,"text":"是我們的時間表是沒有變啦但是剛剛講事實上因為碳費的決定會影響到未來幾年的執行特別是企業他必須要做一些因應所以在這邊才講所以你這樣講好那本期再請教那個現在賴清德總統當選人有沒有跟你徵詢過要不要續留環境部部長"},{"start":10066.239,"end":10089.077,"text":"我在任內一天我就是好好把我的工作做好有沒有徵詢過啊因為你剛剛這樣講的感覺好像是你隨時打包要走人所以說520前你也不敢做重大決定還是你想把這個碳費的這個攤子丟給下一個環境部長對啦這個洪文你放心好了我們應該做的事情我不放心因為你的態度讓我沒有很放心啊"},{"start":10090.831,"end":10092.793,"text":"所以560之前會不會出來我尊重攤位委員會他們的決定但你的時間表"},{"start":10102.042,"end":10123.272,"text":"我的時間表就之前講我們基本上規劃是希望3月底但是來部長那個主席站起來我最後再一個問題那另外你這個沒有辦法回答時間表那我想請教另外一個部分啊蘇丹紅的食安部分那現在您早上也有打詢的時候你有講是說跟咖啡跟茶等自然風險列同等級是絕對沒有辦法接受這樣說法"},{"start":10124.092,"end":10125.234,"text":"那我們現在有看到說﹖"},{"start":10141.482,"end":10143.044,"text":"但是你可以接受說蘇丹紅跟咖啡還有茶"},{"start":10160.385,"end":10187.693,"text":"是同等級的東西嗎是不是應該沒辦法吧不然以後大家開會一杯茶一杯咖啡一杯蘇丹紅因為不會吧我只是要問一個問題因為你剛剛又岔題了我只是說現在有看到食安署食藥署跟環境部要研議57項的食安風險疑慮的化學物質列出高風險的物質請教何時會公佈"},{"start":10188.533,"end":10192.694,"text":"接下來請羅廷偉委員我先在這邊做一個宣告在楊瓊英委員發言結束處理臨時提案"},{"start":10216.769,"end":10241.363,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長請學部長好各位好校長好校長第一次被自己的學生質詢是嗎我的榮幸好希望我們就民生議題能夠實事求是的一個回答好部長想跟請問一下你認為光害對人體有傷害嗎當然有"},{"start":10242.159,"end":10269.022,"text":"好那我就直接切中話題我覺得目前看到的問題是台灣目前沒有針對光害的一個相關法令我看到環境部2020年有做一個光汙染的管理指引每年約有300餘件的一個陳情案件到現在我看到你的計劃每年約有700餘件的一個光害相關的一個陳情案件現行有關光害防治的法規分散在各個主管機關我們看到"},{"start":10269.662,"end":10297.87,"text":"包括招牌廣告樹立廣告有所謂的內政部招牌廣告及樹立廣告的管理辦法還有一個內政部市區道路的附屬工程設計規範還有車輛燈光的一個交通部車輛安全檢測基準以及建築物玻璃反光內政部有一個建築技術規則建築法的管理建築外牆槍窗戶屋頂等相關的玻璃反光其實我看到各個機關都有類似這樣子但是總而言之"},{"start":10298.731,"end":10300.417,"text":"這些法規針對不同的公害"},{"start":10301.363,"end":10329.254,"text":"已經做一個客觀的規範有些地方制定了光害防治的自治條例但缺乏了全面性的一個具體能夠去把他們做一個法則我覺得這樣子的一個缺乏相應的法則使得光害防治在地方上有存在一定的混亂跟不完善我想請問一下部長環境部能不能盤點這些光源的類型並針對各個類型的光源所造成的光汙染"},{"start":10330.194,"end":10332.401,"text":"制定管理規範及解決方案"},{"start":10333.845,"end":10362.091,"text":"跟羅文報告我覺得這一塊可以來做因為的確現在民眾反應有關關害事實上是蠻多的本席在自己的選區也遇到很多這樣子的一個問題那最近不管是青梅成品相關的一個問題還有很多霓虹燈你有看過那種檳榔攤它的霓虹燈晚上是非常非常的亮眼造成住戶這樣子無法去睡眠我覺得這些問題已經形成了很"},{"start":10362.731,"end":10370.584,"text":"多的一個陳情案件我想部長跟你請問一下有可能法治化嗎如果可以的話可不可以給本席一個具體的時間表"},{"start":10373.976,"end":10392.396,"text":"光害就如同之前我們在推動噪音管制一樣不同階段那只要民眾反映他覺得充斥在我們的生活環境當中已經造成包括對身體跟個人的生活各方面的部長我具體問你520前您可以送出一個草案嗎"},{"start":10393.673,"end":10405.472,"text":"520前我想大概時間上沒有辦法因為他涵蓋面好那我先不探討到底520之後您會不會在我希望繼續存在您會擔部長但520如果今年度還在的話您可以在今年度提出一個版本嗎"},{"start":10407.374,"end":10427.194,"text":"謝謝羅委員不過這個假設性的問題我們就不要在這邊談不管我們在這個位置我想我們的同仁都會繼續請你督促同仁在今年度務必能夠繳出這一個版本出來讓我們的所有全民全國國體的國人都很希望有這樣子的一個關愛污染防治法這部分可以嗎"},{"start":10430.617,"end":10448.776,"text":"我們在今年年初的1月4號發布一個光汙染管理指引的第二版本那我想這個讓我們實施了一段時間然後再回頭檢討這個同時呢我們在做這個光汙染的那個檢測沒關係我們會再討論啦但是你的報告自己就有講每年澄清案件700多件"},{"start":10450.698,"end":10458.19,"text":"這事實就是證明有這樣子的需求我希望你能夠具體面對這個需求回應國人的需要那再來我想看一下泡泡影你看這個東西齁"},{"start":10459.909,"end":10486.398,"text":"部長我想跟您請問一下你現在全國共設置210套的聲音照相設備未來要增加到306套我覺得抓草不抓改但是目前就這樣306套114年要共同完成我覺得這是不夠的那再來您看這個新聞現在最新最新的他不是在做所謂的噪音管制的部分我們看到以往都是在這個排氣管"},{"start":10487.498,"end":10514.681,"text":"是他現在直接在他的行李箱汽車後座裡面直接把他的這個氣門改裝氣門他藏在這個後座椅墊下然後他把他的後座都挖洞讓他容易排聲音出來您看這一個金屬環的部分這就是最新的一個改裝他用這樣子的方式不容易藏在他的內體裡面不是在排氣管上你不容易發現我想"},{"start":10515.682,"end":10533.139,"text":"現在環境部應該就現在實施的一個改裝品我們應該本公司的檢討去因應未來年輕人這樣子的一個改裝品造成的一個噪音所以我現在點出問題部長您可不可以給我一個回應就現在我點出這個社會實施問題可不可以馬上來做一個演繹"},{"start":10534.465,"end":10542.129,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們還是維持那個抓草不抓改這就是草100分貝108分貝所以如果有草的我們會是我們這邊來取代我要講的是我們都是從源頭開始處理"},{"start":10550.433,"end":10569.382,"text":"那現在已經不是排氣管了還有這個氣門的問題我們應該要做這樣子的一個認證擴大這些有可能造成噪音的一個相關改裝品的一個認證這是我要的一個具體的一個行為部長您可以回應我嗎馬上做滾動式的檢討來做規範好嗎可以嗎好部長謝謝"},{"start":10579.943,"end":10597.406,"text":"好謝謝羅委員接下來請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席楊瓊英發言想邀請部長跟謝署長化學學部長"},{"start":10600.626,"end":10624.097,"text":"好,楊委員好是,部長好,校長部長好那這個我們知道食品非法的添加蘇丹紅是現在重大的食安事故那從懷疑這個紅色的辣椒粉安全性到多種原料混合咖啡粉到後來消費者自己也害怕了連呢"},{"start":10624.377,"end":10645.282,"text":"．"},{"start":10645.362,"end":10665.935,"text":"也造成了合法供應商呢或者是餐飲業的一個損失對不對所以就管控的問題產生這樣的問題所以本席要請教部長這是不是我們的化學物質管理漏洞呢你的源頭管理為什麼會這麼失靈呢後續你要怎麼樣去補強這個源頭的管理請做總統這個標題事實上是這個不妥啦因為"},{"start":10674.44,"end":10678.261,"text":"怎麼會不妥呢?人家都已經預行信啊你沒有資格去批評這個反質詢說這個標語同不同而是你要去說明你要用你的內容去告訴民眾你要怎麼樣放心他已經預防性的下架你還直接講這個本席要邀請你上來是要聽你專業的立場好嗎?本來就失靈嘛才會產生這預防性的下架嘛對不對?"},{"start":10702.768,"end":10703.148,"text":"國內並沒有系統性把"},{"start":10732.671,"end":10749.804,"text":"議員．"},{"start":10750.389,"end":10771.983,"text":"我們基本上在這一塊事實上在化學營料的部分給食藥署告訴他們說過去這一年來進口的蘇丹色素有39家那這39家都取得環境部化學署裡面的運作的一個合格"},{"start":10772.703,"end":10798.494,"text":"那他們總共呢去年才進口101克使用才41克所以並沒有留到去做食品添加物的這一塊哇布達你這麼回答讓我們更緊張了市面上已經產生這樣的現象那政府的主管機關單位告訴我們是沒有的那他是從哪裡掉下來的呢那個是辣椒粉從中國製造"},{"start":10800.687,"end":10815.801,"text":"應到臺灣來所以事實上是在海關把關在去年的時候他抽驗從20%開始一直拉到去年底就百分之百去檢驗這個部分我們也給另外一個學部長去討論過"},{"start":10817.142,"end":10833.029,"text":" ．"},{"start":10833.429,"end":10848.357,"text":"當一個政府它的橫向組織是必須是嚴密的要怎麼樣以專業的立場去告訴民眾這個安心這是我們今天質詢的重點所以本期要跟你討論的也就是從112年8月底57種的食安儀律化學物質當中還有20種對不對那個謝署長還有20種你沒有辦法以物質"},{"start":10857.501,"end":10883.996,"text":"以物質法的方式去納管那你現在是用正部列管或者是暫緩列管或者是回歸衛福部去管嗎是不是如此請做說明跟委員報告就是我們一直陸陸續續把它檢討用獨安法公告現在還有20種還有20種20種這裡其實本來就有在經濟部那邊就這些廠商要跟他們申報所以這些還是有申報資料所以我們化學院這邊會把它框進來"},{"start":10885.057,"end":10907.459,"text":"然後呢因為這個裡面又有這個17項是跟食品添加物是同品項的其實他東西是一樣只是他身份不是你現在講到重點了這個部長這個你們的署長好他講到重點了也就是人民已經碰到困難那政府各部門要怎樣去橫向去聯繫所以因此我要告訴部長"},{"start":10908.3,"end":10930.938,"text":"我們目前符合列管的初衷我相信大家都希望把它做好同意也辛苦但是問題我們產生的這個問題呢也就是出了問題就說欸督促業主自主管理啊但是我覺得這樣政府不對你應該有權利你就要去執行之你也認同所以因此你整個化學物質的流向"},{"start":10931.678,"end":10954.88,"text":"除存標示跟販賣他還有20項他目前是沒有聚在你的法律約束裡頭所以在這樣的情況之下會有漏洞所以本期希望57種裡頭我們目前還有20種還沒有納進來你們再去討論可以怎麼樣因為你如果從源頭我們才會安心啊好不好"},{"start":10955.761,"end":10977.032,"text":"你把你們去討論的結果告訴本席最後一個議題我給你功課你順便資料給本席就好歐洲議會跟歐盟理事會在2022年的12月13號他已經達成共識2023年10月1號開始要實施探邊境的調整機制也就是CPA"},{"start":10977.972,"end":10979.053,"text":"在歐盟部分我們是以鋼鐵業為主喔那螺絲帽"},{"start":11006.874,"end":11007.055,"text":"一旦"},{"start":11028.772,"end":11056.77,"text":"一旦他課的時候那麼我方要怎麼樣跟國際接軌我們環境部雖然腳程慢了一點我們還是願意希望你們明天要開會要趕快要趕快因為人家都已經拿出時間點了我們還不知道我的足跡在哪裡我要怎麼課對不對所以我給你這個功課我會繼續追你把你們明天開會預計要怎麼做怎麼協助我們的中小企業"},{"start":11058.192,"end":11060.574,"text":"臨時提案第1案 碳備費率審議會設置要點第9條"},{"start":11075.331,"end":11104.53,"text":"碳費考量因素條文中除溫室氣體排放量以及減量等環境因素外僅有意該掛性質之其他相關因素並於條文說明表示包含經濟影響評估為依據時過於籠統草率原此要求環境部緊速修訂該要點明定消費者物價指數CPI或相關經濟指標為審議因素以其確保穩定民生物價提案人委員陳金輝蘇清泉圖全吉"},{"start":11105.253,"end":11116.275,"text":"第二案經查目前環境部資源循環署資源回收處理衍生廢棄物煤核去化平台提供之srf製造廠名單中僅有兩家業者提供srf檢測報告顯示環境部未能要求業者落實srf採樣及檢測原因要求環境部於一個月內將針對srf製造廠之稽查輔導專案計劃執行狀況"},{"start":11131.298,"end":11145.506,"text":"以及加強落實SRF採樣及檢測之具體策進作為向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王玉敏徒全及陳金輝盧憲一第三案環境部雖於112年預告修正"},{"start":11147.867,"end":11162.956,"text":"公司場所固定污染源因符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料公司場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例及成分標準及鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準三項修正草案僅為後端污染管控"},{"start":11163.496,"end":11184.505,"text":"人缺乏前端設置設場實質管理措施且三項修正草案目前仍未正式公告施行為強化我國對SRF製造廠及發電廠之管制度及標準原要求環境部於一個月內提出相關標準建置及修正之具體時程並會同經濟部針對SRF製造廠及發電廠研擬完善設置標準及準則向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":11192.648,"end":11209.216,"text":"提案人委員王玉敏徒泉及陳金輝盧憲一第4案據全國空污據全國空氣污染排放清澈資料顯示平東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於臨近縣市空氣品質不良的天數常居全國第一"},{"start":11209.876,"end":11232.81,"text":"約有三分之一的污染源來自高雄但屏東所分配的空污防治費卻遠低於高雄為減緩屏東居民健康威脅與改善生活環境原要求環境部於一個月內研議提高屏東補助標準與高雄相同向立法院社會及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉圖泉及陳金輝第5案"},{"start":11235.592,"end":11256.282,"text":"平東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於鄰近縣市來自高雄地區上峰處的污染埋源是造成平東空氣品質不良主因空污細小微粒進入到人體後會隨血液四處擴散累積因此血液通過的心臟腦部許多疾病都已證實與空污高度相關"},{"start":11257.783,"end":11283.811,"text":"議事葉光鵬研究空污與復科及病毒乳癌有絕對關係為預防屏東居民面臨健康威脅原要求環境部於一個月內研議補助涉及屏東居民全身健康檢查經費向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉、屠泉及陳金輝宣讀完畢請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":11285.502,"end":11312.331,"text":"有的第一案剛剛已經跟3位委員討論過我們把我看一下2 4 6把第8行第8列把那個但環境部過往公告進行以一直到這個90控制物價調漲整個把它劃掉"},{"start":11317.68,"end":11321.503,"text":"倒數後面一二三四五"},{"start":11333.663,"end":11363.049,"text":"第5行的後面時過於濃統草率整個劃掉然後且未能改成應明確立定審議委員會那後面一樣那下一行就變成原始然後提案要求劃掉寫成改成請原始請環境部"},{"start":11364.605,"end":11381.576,"text":"接下來話調一直到消費者物價指數CPI就是這個我再念一下原始請環境部將消費者物價指數CPI括弧或相關經濟指標納為審議因素"},{"start":11387.02,"end":11412.603,"text":"以其期待的日期的期以其確保穩定民生物價是否有當然後敬請公決大概就這樣子那請問提案委員有沒有意見主席我們剛有溝通我是可以接受但是多方思考定價因多方思考還有"},{"start":11413.744,"end":11434.853,"text":"這個都是他們自己發布的新聞稿裡面的內容所以我還是希望在明天你們開審議會這個討論費率的重點因為目前你們列出的重點幾乎都是跟你們的專業還有科學相關的但是這個民生經濟最關心的這些希望你如同你之前的新聞稿一樣把它列進去謝謝好"},{"start":11436.886,"end":11463.821,"text":"好的在執行面我們事實上的確會跟委員講請他們多方面來思考不要只單純只考慮碳費啦我剛剛也講過事實上我們應該通盤去考量國內其他各個因素我們的目標是減碳這個是最重要的目標而不是收碳費這個才是我們的精髓好謝謝那我們就照文字修正通過好謝謝好謝謝那第二案"},{"start":11465.949,"end":11487.396,"text":"請問行政單位有沒有意見跟委員報告那第二段的部分我們建議做一些文字修正就是在第一段第一段後面就是顯示環境部會能要求業者落實一到最後難以發揮那這兩段刪掉那請問提案委員剛剛有跟委員溝通過王委員不在那圖全級委員"},{"start":11496.206,"end":11507.343,"text":"喔好那還是我們先往下就是那"},{"start":11512.079,"end":11527,"text":"那我們先討論第三案等一下再回過頭來第二案吼那第三案呃行政單位有沒有意見是那跟這個呃主席報告就是我們呃建議有做文件修正就是在第一段第一段的呃倒數第三行吼"},{"start":11527.975,"end":11555.642,"text":"皆缺乏有效管理措施改為應加強管理措施另外就是在第二段倒數第三行就是先要求環境部於這個三個月內提出相關排放標準修正之具體時程並會同經濟部針對SF製造廠及發電廠研擬那修正文字變成研擬管理機制向立法院社會委員來提出書面報告"},{"start":11556.857,"end":11573.394,"text":"好那請問第三案提案委員有沒有意見好謝謝主席那針對這部分應該是要求環境部於一個月內提出相關修正"},{"start":11574.437,"end":11601.469,"text":"後支排放標準不是不是排放標準又再修正後的具體時程因為一個月就要你提出的不用再討論具體時程應該就是直接提出修正後支排放標準你等於一個月一個月內提出修正排放標準不好意思我們會先預告"},{"start":11603.454,"end":11613.261,"text":"提出來是預告的版本一個月內提出修正因為你現在已經有排放標準只是我要你們修正後之排放標準不是說叫你修正後之具體時程"},{"start":11628.409,"end":11649.964,"text":"對不是時程因為已經講好一個月嘛就等於要在一個月內提出修正或是排放標準那你針對後面管理機制時間上有問題是嗎管理機制一個月來不及是嗎對管理機制是不是可以3個月"},{"start":11652.577,"end":11663.955,"text":"三個月可以再早一點嗎兩個月可以可以好那是不是請行政單位針對剛剛修正文字的部分是不是念一遍好不好是好"},{"start":11667.385,"end":11683.53,"text":"在第3案的部分第一段後段修正為及後段管制標準因而落實管理措施那在第二段的部分在倒數第4行先要求環境部於一個月內"},{"start":11686.604,"end":11703.491,"text":"提出排放標準提出相關的修正後的排放標準並會同經濟部針對SRF製造產業發電廠於3個月內於2個月內研擬管理機制向立法院社安委員提出書面報告好那這一部分"},{"start":11716.212,"end":11739.7,"text":"那這部分更改的部分是上面你說接缺法改需加強是不是是是然後再來就是一個月內提出修正之排放標準修正之標準草案修正之標準草案然後再來就是研擬完善管理機制兩個月內提出"},{"start":11741.937,"end":11766.868,"text":"好那針對文字修正的部分徒委員可以嗎好好那就照文字修正通過好那我們先是不是再回到第二案好不好剛剛第二案的部分徒委員第二案呢呃就是我我們是建議文字修正之在第二段的後面兩句話呃就是呃顯示環境未然落實還有呃品質管控難以發揮這兩句話建議刪除"},{"start":11770.526,"end":11775.999,"text":"可以嗎好那就照文字修正通過好那接下來第4案"},{"start":11782.919,"end":11798.066,"text":"第4案提案倒數第二行研議改善空氣污染之作法向立法院社福及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告那蘇委員是不是有意見"},{"start":11810.306,"end":11825.885,"text":"謝謝主席第4案第5案都有牽連我這邊要再三強調就是環境部本身自己越來越多的經費你們是執政我們是在野所以你怎麼贏"},{"start":11826.966,"end":11827.106,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11845.717,"end":11868.852,"text":"恭喜能量恭喜電力給中北部一點公平性都沒有所以我剛才跟處長溝通的結果我們是希望能夠落實啦你要用研究案你要補助案你要怎麼做我都尊重但是要落實我一定盯得緊緊的好不好"},{"start":11875.796,"end":11902.384,"text":"好那是不是可以好就照文字修正通過嗎好好那第4案就照呃文字修正通過那第5案是那呃報告主席第5案這邊再倒數第二段就是呃的後段呃婦產科權威等等的這到結束這邊呃剛剛委員辦公室這邊就這段刪掉啊這就到了好那再來第最後一段呃在的後面研議"},{"start":11903.752,"end":11925.297,"text":"免弱族群就改成免弱族群室內空氣品質改善強化向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告大概就這樣的文字修正好那蘇委員可以那第5案也照文字修正通過好那接下來我們開始質詢"},{"start":11927.659,"end":11935.795,"text":"這個臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來請黃仁委員"},{"start":11955.005,"end":11958.27,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":11962.447,"end":11986.405,"text":"這一天蘭嶼的廢料之爭臺灣原住民的憤怒與反抗到現在依此是存在著政府對於蘭嶼的核能廢料的這個從未經過當地蘭嶼達務組的同意多年來他們持續的向政府抗議到現在仍然的進行所以本席強調蘭嶼"},{"start":11988.607,"end":11996.885,"text":"和能廢料儲存廠拆除抗疫還在抗爭中不過現在所延伸出來的問題"},{"start":11998.823,"end":12027.414,"text":"已經數十年了因為核能廢料儲存廠他還是有外洩到整個污染延伸到哪裡臺東的東海岸線有八個鄉鎮包含長濱鄉成功鎮北南鄉大武鄉太馬里鄉東河鄉達仁鄉臺東市等鄉鎮嚴重污染當地的環境衛生"},{"start":12030.236,"end":12047.581,"text":"因此本席認為政府應該運用來以核能廢料儲存場使用原住民保留地補助這個這個損失的補助基金總共有25.5億以提出生態保育計畫將補助擴及到移植到臺灣海岸線的八個鄉鎮的海岸"},{"start":12060.385,"end":12087.874,"text":"依據環境基本法的第24條應積極採用各種措施保護海洋環境強化海洋的管理那另外這個本席要求部長環境部應該在行政院上提出週期包含涉及的經濟部和研論會等跨部會工作小組會議競速核定"},{"start":12090.795,"end":12106.82,"text":"本席所提出的生態保育復育計畫的政策希望能夠在一個月內向本席說明及報告的狀況另外本席以部長討論的這個立島的嚴重污染問題"},{"start":12108.84,"end":12134.467,"text":"在112年12月1號臺東的綠島鄉右直湖海岸線大量的重油污染這個不知的傳知在臺東花蓮陸續發現油污染的這個清澈海岸變成了黑色漣漪那另外"},{"start":12138.243,"end":12146.948,"text":"你看一下這個圖片非常的污染根據你們的環境基本法第二條第三項"},{"start":12150.479,"end":12174.807,"text":"水系於以任何形式存在之地面水及地下水海洋液包括在內施地系於動物植物油氣地環境之一屬於自然生態系統的環境之一另外在環境部業務報告在第69項指出"},{"start":12177.328,"end":12202.874,"text":"自力減少露燃廢棄物污染海洋所以在這個地方特別要跟部長來討論這個問題政府已啟動衛星與無人機檢測追查但是到現在查不出來至於近日已經超過三個月乃未找到這個元兇"},{"start":12204.094,"end":12226.347,"text":"所以我們環境部業務報告22項指出海洋每一寸的土地都要乾淨而且立即清緊急清所以在這個地方針對台東核能廢料及綠島鄉幼稚園海岸中污染案"},{"start":12229.386,"end":12257.195,"text":"這段時間不作為的海洋沒有作為的海洋二度的污染成為海洋的噩夢本席要求政府成立一個專案小組而非一直放著讓污染侵蝕台東的海岸線所以部長盡數在一個月內提出這個檢討報告包含蘭嶼儲存場的核能廢料影響到整個東海岸"},{"start":12258.749,"end":12282.585,"text":"可以不可以跟委員報告一下就是說剛剛委員所提的兩件事情第一個是有關核廢料的部分那事實上是以前的研能會現在的核安會他們的主持所以你們雙向溝通雙向溝通好不好對那我們可以來跟核安會那第二個案子是海委會負責海洋的污染那環境部事實上是向海致敬我們有一個海岸垃圾"},{"start":12289.29,"end":12293.575,"text":"謝謝黃委員接下來請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在接下來請牛許廷委員"},{"start":12317.391,"end":12318.896,"text":"謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請學部長"},{"start":12324.537,"end":12346.973,"text":"好 牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火"},{"start":12349.875,"end":12379.315,"text":"那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PC Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害"},{"start":12380.337,"end":12384.17,"text":"但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?"},{"start":12385.319,"end":12410.168,"text":"啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月"},{"start":12410.848,"end":12438.294,"text":"火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎"},{"start":12440.368,"end":12454.175,"text":"條文我當然沒有辦法記得但是基本上只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講開罰的法條就是空污法第32條"},{"start":12455.476,"end":12474.293,"text":"那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的"},{"start":12475.814,"end":12497.744,"text":"好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊"},{"start":12500.285,"end":12508.711,"text":"我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法"},{"start":12515.655,"end":12518.638,"text":"但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧"},{"start":12540.719,"end":12564.998,"text":"以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業"},{"start":12565.718,"end":12590.865,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉促大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研理報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎"},{"start":12591.645,"end":12597.229,"text":"那就請你回去做研議好嗎我們持續來追蹤可以嗎OK好辛苦了謝謝好謝謝呃牛委員接下來請羅志強委員有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12621.647,"end":12638.88,"text":"好羅恩好我要延續牛許廷委員的問題我想請教一下這個薛部長您是住在台北嗎我來自台中所以您住的地方在哪在這個台北市對台北"},{"start":12639.844,"end":12654.268,"text":"我跟你講我的選區是大安區但我現在住在那個文山區可是你知道最近新北的那個深坑的大火他又燒出一個很嚴重的問題就是"},{"start":12656.209,"end":12679.262,"text":"我們在所謂的空氣污染的那個警報的系統之上是似乎跟民眾的感覺有很大的落差那我自己其實當天就聞到很濃的臭味了那我們大安區選民也聞到很濃的臭味但我想請問這個部長你知道那天的空氣的空瓶的監測的狀況如何"},{"start":12681.667,"end":12702.62,"text":"那一天除了短暫有超過這個PM2.5有超過達到66個μg之外其他我們所來自臺北市環保局以及我們環境部自己的監測的數據事實上都沒有超標"},{"start":12704.521,"end":12726.687,"text":"這個齁其實就是第一個民怨的一個所在啊而且很多人都覺得不舒服甚至到醫院去了可是在我們的所謂的汙染指標上卻好像好像是只有短暫現象給羅文報告就是說這個也是我們現在經過這一次事實上之前也有談到啦這種所謂的惡臭"},{"start":12728.24,"end":12731.144,"text":"再一個問題其實這個事情我還不是這一次經歷剛剛劉許廷委員講那個盧竹的火災"},{"start":12745.695,"end":12766.353,"text":"那個美孚倉儲的火災我自己就到現場去了5次我自己到現場去了5次我跟這個部長報告我真的覺得當地居民幾乎是活不下去的你知道嗎那個臭味你沒有到身離其境我去5次我到最後一次政府宣稱火滅了我再去那還是臭到不得了"},{"start":12767.332,"end":12785.15,"text":"真的前面是所謂的那個火災的那種所謂的一些燒焦物的焦臭到最後就是跟你家堆了100隻死老鼠一樣的那個臭味可是我想請教一下那個時候我們的政府對於這樣的一個狀況有什麼處置措施"},{"start":12785.922,"end":12785.942,"text":"我這樣說齁"},{"start":12808.425,"end":12827.483,"text":"原來的剛剛就講就是說這個臭味的這個定義現在就是還沒有辦法有一個非常科學我們能夠來判斷然後才發布這些我跟要不跟部長說第一個就是我們的空品的一個跟民眾的感受落差很大這第一個問題"},{"start":12828.624,"end":12840.775,"text":"第二問題其實就剛剛牛許廷委員講的就是說實際上對這些造勢的廠商的我們的所謂的處罰的罰則那你現在最後結果鬧得那麼沸沸揚揚美孚的倉儲大火最後罰6000塊你覺得民眾能接受這個結果嗎"},{"start":12847.181,"end":12873.577,"text":"所以中間的漏洞我覺得環境部有責任要把這個處罰的缺口補起來因為你沒有一個相應的處罰的機制的話你就沒有約束力當然最後一個就是我覺得通報的那個做法可能也要再檢討一下因為實際上我的選區確實很多的民眾是抱怨說根本就很多通報的機制是不夠迅速及時"},{"start":12874.597,"end":12881.783,"text":"所以大家會聞到臭味才知道發生什麼事以上好我們來檢討好謝謝羅委員接下來請邱志維委員邱志維委員邱志維委員不在接下來請羅明才委員"},{"start":12899.498,"end":12921.821,"text":"羅明財委員羅明財委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請陳昭芝委員好謝謝主席有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12925.289,"end":12949.196,"text":"部長好今天彰化有一些鄉親不少鄉親都這個金鼎焚化爐開發現場做抗議部長您曉不曉得這件事情好像是今天嗎是今天就是此時此刻那這個開發案因為當初居民是反對的縣政府也反對很重要的在選情的時候總統府秘書長林佳龍也到現場承諾政府會停止這個開發案"},{"start":12950.396,"end":12962.628,"text":"但是選後開發廠商又開始辦說明會應要這個新建請問環境部這件事管還是不管給陳文報告這個案子事實上是在兩年前"},{"start":12963.84,"end":12986.159,"text":"就經過環境部那時候環保署的環評環評通過在兩年前當初在環評裡面有規定經營綠能公司他在動工以前必須召開民眾的公聽會就是說因為有一些我知道你的程序也許完成但是有一些政治承諾嘛"},{"start":12986.499,"end":12993.324,"text":"是那你民眾會相信這個看到政治承諾那是不是部長你就是請環境部再下去跟這個"},{"start":12995.314,"end":13014.819,"text":"再下去做一個溝通協調嗎?好嗎?因為最多我剛剛已經提到了林佳龍秘書長到戰後承諾政府要停止這個開發案好嗎?部長我就這個案子就因為今天發生我盡我的力量但是有些東西是超越我的前線因為我第一個我也沒有就請你關心因為今天他此時此刻好謝謝部長"},{"start":13018.2,"end":13044.793,"text":"市長那我現在在確認一個事實就是說我們目前的那個中小型廢棄物焚化爐帶二型管制及排放的標準當中在第7條第1項第5款有講到既有的焚化爐在集成設備入口的廢棄溫度必須是在規定是在設置280度以下那新設的焚化爐要在200度以下請問這個規定現在是不是還是有效的這是2005年規範的我是不是請我們環管署就是說只要說是不是還是正確的是的"},{"start":13046.534,"end":13050.279,"text":"好好ok那下一張那這一個左邊齁這張圖的左邊就是目前的這個環境部客戶專責教材的截圖啦但是這裡談到的那個觸媒反應齁觸媒反應齁在框起來的地方他是寫200度到450度"},{"start":13062.176,"end":13077.858,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":13077.858,"end":13093.797,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13093.797,"end":13114.548,"text":"．"},{"start":13114.828,"end":13132.499,"text":"進步新的觸媒這個是教材阿專責教材阿對阿所以這個應該修改就修改好謝謝那再來齁觸媒成分是不是商業機密我想請教部長觸媒廠商說自己的觸媒是商業機密請問你同意或支持這個說法嗎阿觸媒"},{"start":13134.442,"end":13158.548,"text":"當然會是一個商業機密我知道您過去的主張也是如此但是這個是因為它我剛剛提到了會有不斷的研發有不斷的新的這個材質出現如果連芊合的技術師都不能知道它的內容那請問技術師要怎麼去核實這家工廠的觸媒裝置跟操作溫度是正確的而且是能夠有效的這個運作那你這樣做如果不讓他知道那你不是限這個這個"},{"start":13160.854,"end":13169.286,"text":"所謂的這個設計這個技師這個簽證簽口都是限他於不義之地嗎現在有處罰的嫌疑嗎因為他不知道真相啊不知道這個內容物啊那部長就說"},{"start":13174.287,"end":13192.815,"text":"這件事情就是說如果有一個方法我在想他們宣稱是商業機密那你部長你到現在也從也認為這個是屬於商業機密是其實這個在藥品很多地方都有談藥品的成分配方的是不是商業機密這可以討論那是不是可以這樣因為技師要去核發嘛核簽嘛"},{"start":13193.854,"end":13216.512,"text":"那可不可以讓祭司知道他的成分比例因為這個影響他的操作溫度嘛那但是他可以簽索密承諾啊部長您覺得是不是可以要處理呢我個人覺得基本上我個人也是陷這個祭司於不義啊他不知道啊他還要去簽合啊簽證啊可是我們應該看他使用這個醜梅所產生出來的不管是"},{"start":13217.012,"end":13242.328,"text":"部長我因為前兩章就很努力告訴你說有不同的觸媒材質他的溫度是不一樣的那也許跟著研發因為進步了嘛那你教材都要改了那何況這個他要了解資訊那個部長就是說我知道過去態度你們是這樣當作機密但是機密也是可以另外再處理的是不是讓這個就是專業人員去做這件事的時候他是在有知的情況下去做這個處理好嗎我們來努力看看好不好那好下一張謝謝部長"},{"start":13246.391,"end":13247.194,"text":"您知道這張是什麼圖嗎?"},{"start":13249.259,"end":13276.193,"text":"這個PM2.5這是光海這個是美國太空總署跟美國國家海洋暨大氣總署的那個衛星影像製作的那我跟部長解釋一下藍色跟黑色表示就是該去的夜空是比較相對黑暗那綠色黃色紅色是表示是就是有人造的光散發出來的一個光線部長你可以看到台灣的西部那個放大的圖台灣的西部地區綠色黃色部分比起全世界"},{"start":13277.333,"end":13300.778,"text":"光害相當嚴重你看到這張圖這張圖好那部長知道光害會造成什麼影響嗎我就直接先告訴部長陳委員報告事實上剛剛也有人提到環境部本身已經也在研議光害但是我想我要繼續這個就是讓部長能夠做得更積極他對人體健康的影響我想這個光害睡眠一定有"},{"start":13301.738,"end":13327.204,"text":"市域一定有嘛那你知道因為我們身體的荷爾蒙的分泌是有生物節律是沒錯荷爾蒙的分泌也會異常甚至造成小朋友性早熟都可能是那大家有很多人在開車看到那個遠光燈啊對啊遠光燈有些用LED的那個但是現在國內的污染的部分有關這個光污染的這個陳情案每年大概700件是那你比起噪音跟其他看來比較少那是因為國內不知道光污染也是一個光害沒錯沒錯"},{"start":13327.904,"end":13355.875,"text":"那他也不知道說這個可以跟誰陳情那部長你在目前為止我談的你都接受跟瞭解這是有一些科學的依據跟全球的一些規範下一張那現在我們就是說我們缺乏污染這個管制的一個明確法規那2014年我要談的就是說那個法治局其實有一些專題的研究那2021年監察院曾經發函就是說指出中央缺乏強制性的法規"},{"start":13356.935,"end":13373.388,"text":"那將會造成集合人力的浪費那地方政府想要做一些自治的條例也無所依循所以要求競速將關害防治法提案這個送審但是今年一月修正的這個關害這個關污染管理指引他連行政命令都不是欸"},{"start":13374.689,"end":13390.822,"text":"連這個層次都不是欸所以我想知道說部長您對於這件事情觀看您覺得你環境部的態度是積極的嗎你管還是不管但是還在指引的階段啊連行政命令都還不及啊"},{"start":13391.698,"end":13394.7,"text":"對不對那他這個東西就變成說像像我在舉例好好這個這個最新修正的指引當中他對於路燈色溫規定很寬鬆了好根據國際這個暗光這個協會指就是說各級道路顏色應該不要高於3000 k k數越多表示光害越嚴重"},{"start":13407.947,"end":13437.547,"text":"但是臺灣現在的鄉鎮現在鄉鎮就是基本上都開購4000到5000K的LED燈那你這個東西就是還另外一個現在很多交通工具是利用非可見光來偵測或掃描這個也沒有納入所以我想最後一張就是說是不是源頭我們要來處理現在捷克在2002年是第一個國家是設立了光害防治法那南韓跟英國也跟上了我想再問一下您知道我們連江縣也有這個所謂光害管制自治條例嗎您知道嗎"},{"start":13438.807,"end":13459.576,"text":"您知道嗎連江縣我們管轄的連江縣你知道為什麼嗎因為他為了保護藍眼淚好嗎所以整個問題我知道這個問題會跨在環保交通生態農業甚至很多衛生福利等但核心議題還是這個環境保護所以是不是拜託部長就是說我們來去研議很快速研議一些比較有"},{"start":13460.256,"end":13479.023,"text":"才發的這種標準以及比較具體的這個法規第一個請把非可見光納管因為現在很多工具都在使用第二個明定色溫流明上限跟開關的時間另外一個是宣導宣導什麼呢燈具照地不照天減少光線的3億好嗎部長可以嗎好謝謝部長好謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":13500.1,"end":13515.576,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政務軍事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請環境部學部長請學部長好中文好哎等一下畫面還沒出來畫面還沒出來"},{"start":13517.728,"end":13543.053,"text":"好部長好部長還記得嗎在去年10月22號我在院會總質詢跟你請教去年你的承諾我請院長指示責成環境部跟農業部來參照農產品初期加工廠管理辦法將符合農業剩餘物資在利用的環境稽查法規是不是讓由農業部來盡量的主責你還記得嗎是是記得嗎在你的辦公室沒有錯在我的辦公室也在院會質詢過"},{"start":13544.393,"end":13565.076,"text":"不過你對我在辦公室跟您請議的部分比較內容深刻我幫你回憶一下我去年在院會上的質詢下一頁他就說到了農業生產跟工業製造有本質上的這些差異我就不再贅述標準化規格化有生命無生命還有多樣性跟差異性另外下一頁我們環境部卻是用工業製造的同樣的態度來面對農業生產"},{"start":13566.317,"end":13582.737,"text":"包括我們看到了如果是工業的話他有化工毒害可是農業的最多就是空汙臭味那麼資本家資本雄厚小農呢你同樣的處罰小農受不了所以在同樣用工業制造的同一個態度制定出來的反清洗法規對付農民其實不是農民所能承受"},{"start":13583.297,"end":13608.09,"text":"反過來我們繼續看往下看工業製造跟農業生產它的衝擊跟傷害工業製造包括人權傷害環境變遷氣候變遷環境破壞這些不可回復的後果但是農業生產其實對這些的影響相對有限接下來我們來看一下下一頁比如說請教一下像蘇丹紅事件人工的添加戶比較有危害還是我們農民種的辣椒它的生產再怎麼樣哪一個危害重"},{"start":13610.526,"end":13638.766,"text":"工業當然當然是工業的添加物嚴重嘛對不對我們農民天然的天然的通貨啦在那你不敢他也不會有毒害的問題存在好但是接下來我們往下看農業生產的形態我們各位怎麼因應呢其實我們就不斷強調農業部他當時針對的農產品初期加工在面對食安的時候他成功的得到了環境部跟經濟部的支持農業的初期加工不用適用工廠管理法"},{"start":13639.326,"end":13643.253,"text":"我們農業的初級加工也不用食品安全法因為這些初級加工沒有食安的問題部長你同意嗎"},{"start":13646.904,"end":13671.536,"text":"對他基本上是只有農藥的使用的那個問題對所以說同樣的農業生產我們的環境的部分農業所造成的環境問題我們看看怎麼來解決好那往下看但是在今天您的報告口頭報告第10頁當中目前農業的剩餘物資抱歉我一向不接受農業廢棄物的試行思考因為天然長出來的沒有所謂的廢棄物只有放錯地方的資源你同意嗎"},{"start":13672.658,"end":13700.945,"text":"我們本來是要推這個概念是現在你們還是用農業廢棄物的概念但是還是有另外一股聲音覺得說我們不能把廢棄物這種名稱譬如說在農業這一塊積分這個我們了解但是我希望說你們可以用規模跟數量和它的定性的方式來區隔大多數的農業剩餘物資是可再利用的就是符合你們今天要推的什麼"},{"start":13701.685,"end":13726.913,"text":"支援循環促進法對不對好那麼我們來看一下往下一頁現在我們環境部有訂了一個廢清法你們希望能夠用支援循環促進法來處理那農業部本來已經在食品的部分已經有一個辦法了他現在呢也在訂一個辦法那農業部有在訂一個辦法那我們來看一下接下來下一頁支援循環促進法案即將推出已經預告了沒有還沒有因為"},{"start":13729.932,"end":13742.405,"text":"在溝通階段正好我這個發言我這個質詢即時本次修法當然是由環境部統一全責但是是不是農業部門的生產可以另外有一個專法我希望的就是一個什麼"},{"start":13744.567,"end":13770.292,"text":"農業資源循環促進法就是加個農業為什麼要把農業特徵放的我往下看來我舉例來講我手上的這一個來部長你可以看一下我手上這一個這個看起來好像是很漂亮的香皂你知道他用什麼做的嗎他用導泡做的導泡就是黃豆炸油或者做其他的事情然後留下來導泡導泡他是廢棄是不是一個廢棄物"},{"start":13772.005,"end":13772.466,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":13786.827,"end":13810.361,"text":"但是這個事業維修他其實上他幾乎沒有什麼對環境的危害他如果經過適當的處理他可以做成我們洗澡的香皂同樣道理在很多農業剩餘當中他可能在生產過程當中我們不能送餐桌使用的我們當做什麼當作飼料不能當飼料的當肥料不能當肥料我們當燃料這樣的農業剩餘有什麼環境的破壞我們來看一下這是我一個親身接觸的一個場"},{"start":13811.281,"end":13830.59,"text":"他是用什麼呢他用木質的木纖維就是農業的剩餘當中的木纖維他用來一個高溫裂解產生氣體然後呢他用這個氣體燃燒來發電他的名稱叫做生質能生質生物質燃氣發電我們早先在二次大戰的時候曾經有一種煤氣車煤氣車不是蒸氣他煤氣是變成煤氣煤氣再去燃燒就是透過引擎去推動有這樣的技術嗎"},{"start":13840.199,"end":13847.265,"text":"好這樣的技術呢他現在遇到一個問題了到底他是屬於廢棄物發電還是農業廢棄物發電還是生殖能發電現在這個業者要什麼狀況他在農忙農產品多的時候他是大量使用農業的剩餘"},{"start":13856.253,"end":13873.534,"text":"但是在農業收穫之後他這個東西減少了他開始去河畔工廠隔板啊材切料啊這些工廠有大量的材切料這些材切料跟他用的農剩的這個剩餘呢其實差不多都是木纖維但是呢這下就來啦"},{"start":13874.275,"end":13894.001,"text":"他要運用的時候農業部不能界定這個盒板工廠的材切料是農剩嘛不能說是農業廢棄物是你們的工廠認定的事業廢棄物嘛他可不可以使用他就不能使用了所以說我們希望最後的結論主席站起來了齁我希望呢環境部能否將農業資源循環在你們制定資源循環促進法的時候將農業的部分可以跟農業部協商另訂一個專法"},{"start":13901.323,"end":13923.657,"text":"我們除了避免工業廢棄物進入農業部門之外這很嚴重不能讓它進來我們也希望農業資源不要全部都打進了失業廢棄物來處理最後希望你最後一個承諾協同農業部評估再生能源使用多重資源的可行方案可以嗎好那本題的這個主題就是說農業資源循環比照我們資源循環促進法的方式來立法你願意"},{"start":13924.717,"end":13931.561,"text":"參考嗎?我們共同找農業部來推動?可以啊,各部份分工合作這個是好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝鍾委員,好,謝謝謝謝鍾嘉賓委員接下來請劉建國委員好,謝謝主席有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":13955.782,"end":13972.97,"text":"好,劉文好部長好,部長看一個影片認識他不錯,會長命百歲瞭解他之後會長不能讀這次海歸部長認識嗎?你要不然他現在在做什麼嗎?"},{"start":13981.946,"end":13985.456,"text":"人家把他從那個鼻孔裡面把那個 啊 把什麼"},{"start":13989.611,"end":14013.892,"text":"這是全世界最知名的海龜也是我們人類永遠的污點也是不希望人類的垃圾機遇影響環境也不要有現在這個海龜去吸到吸管了吃到吸管了所以認識到會長命百歲但是看到它會產不能毒就這個樣子所以前往報數在107年7月1號的時候實施一次用的這個塑膠吸管的限制使用"},{"start":14014.432,"end":14030.158,"text":"那限制政府部門學校包括是購物中心等等數字餐店然後餐飲內用不得提供一次性的塑膠吸管那我想很多業者也自己擴大配合這個政策提供來停止提供塑膠吸管"},{"start":14031.238,"end":14043.41,"text":"在108年限制一次性的這個塑膠吸管政策後荒野保護協會在109年的年底有公布台灣ICC的這個淨灘數據其中塑膠吸管較108年已經減少27%"},{"start":14046.673,"end":14068.992,"text":"沒有真的反饋這個政策是正確的嘛那環境部又在111年度的時候再度推動限制飲料店內使用一次用的塑膠飲料杯那最初在今年9月全台各飲料店要不再提供一次性的這個塑膠杯嘛沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":14072.314,"end":14098.059,"text":"這個都是正確的方向正確的政策那我也同意要循序漸進不要照鏡跟社會多多衝通但是我今天要提醒環境部提醒部長這個現用塑膠杯是不是也不夠周圍之處好你看齁應該還有努力空間啦不是不是這個杯塑膠杯這個是紙的這個是塑膠的對"},{"start":14101.576,"end":14121.916,"text":"委員講到重點了我講到重點了裡面都沒有處理到重點奇怪然後這個未完送給我們咖啡等一下一杯請部長一下好不好因為部長沒有喝到上面也是塑膠的下面是紙的那這樣的政策是不是有"},{"start":14122.423,"end":14150.479,"text":"有很大的一個討論的改進的空間嗎?這是其一啦,不是有部長在打呼喚沒關係齁然後第二個就是他有一件事情也很奇怪啦齁今天這個國立的海洋科技博物館也辦這個國際的淨灘他在統計海會的數據齁數學評概依舊是第一名啦保特評是第二名齁那方圓保護協會一樣在109年數學評概也是第一名啊數學評概就這個嘛這是保特評第二名嘛"},{"start":14151.124,"end":14161.249,"text":"啊這是第一瓶嘛對不對齁啊這個你看齁這為什麼給我撕掉這是國內的廠家的飲料用水啊齁這它齁它是設計這樣杯蓋不分身啊杯蓋不分身好啊這個是這是我跟這個昭緯每天都要喝的嘿"},{"start":14172.059,"end":14198.478,"text":"不是打廣告是打高鐵就有這瓶水他就杯蓋分身了我還沒有喝等一下請部長喝還有咖啡杯請你喝就是這個樣子所以這個就第一名這瓶蓋到現在第一名這個可能就不會了所以我是在想說這個瓶蓋這個杯子底下是指的上面這個塑膠的為什麼到現在不處理"},{"start":14199.173,"end":14226.032,"text":"是什麼困難度是什麼理由是什麼原因給委員報告就是說這個是在技術性的一個挑戰就是說假如事實上已經有這種材料跟技術可以把瓶蓋跟瓶身都用同一種材質那當然我想這個廠家也會去做但是到目前為止還沒有經濟可行的替代品不過這兩個都是國內的廠家"},{"start":14228.824,"end":14252.519,"text":"這上面就有他的LOGO了對阿對啊這個都是國內的廠家阿對啊而且這個已經用非常久了是不是現在才產出的不是現在才發明的喔那跟委員報告這個部分我們可以用這個政策引導的方式讓他可以來連生我是要請教處長為什麼現在署長嘛對阿現在署長不一樣了喔為什麼這個用這麼久阿就是這樣"},{"start":14257.102,"end":14276.192,"text":"是國內廠家為什麼這個用這麼久還是這樣你們的當時思考是什麼狀況怎麼會會沒有去注意到然後那個淨灘的評比連續幾年都是這個這個第一名這個第二名然後這個這個要限用了上面還是塑膠瓶蓋"},{"start":14279.637,"end":14308.258,"text":"我把這個盲點提出來啦好不好一個月內啦不要說一週一個月內相對我提出來這個問題是不是有解決之道啦好不好就這樣第二件事情啦齁第二件事情這個部長根據公務法的規定出廠滿5年的機車每年是不是要實施這個排氣的定期檢驗嘛那定檢會從1997年以來一直都維持在一台車是80塊"},{"start":14310.019,"end":14335.646,"text":"環境部在今年期要調整20塊這一筆調整20塊原有的80塊這錢是從哪裡來的是從空屋基金裡面來支付所以對民眾的權益完全沒有影響對民眾的權益完全沒有影響嗎沒有影響那民眾搞不清楚狀況然後罵環境部那環境部也絲毫不受任的影響"},{"start":14337.533,"end":14359.731,"text":"給劉文報告我記得我們事實上是有這個公開去把這個事情你怎麼公開新聞我們有新聞稿有新聞稿當然事實上民眾應該可以感受到他他去機車或者汽車定錢還是沒有繳更多的錢啊我們做20塊是補貼從空污基金補貼"},{"start":14360.765,"end":14381.383,"text":"就是不需要從人民的口袋掏錢出來嘛對不對好啊你看這個FB的社群27年來首度調漲往期選前不敢講選後各種漲然後你講有新聞稿嘛對不對你看這個留言裡面還有某家媒體下面還可以寫說荷包GG"},{"start":14383.65,"end":14405.905,"text":"這個的確我們要檢討,變成被誤導,事實上這個就是標準的假訊息刻意帶風向引起民眾內心的恐慌跟不滿,那我想以後環境部在這一塊我覺得這種本來是好事一件那我們也考量到這些定選單位他過去27年來什麼都帳他沒有帳事實上我們"},{"start":14407.186,"end":14413.514,"text":"為了減少民眾的負擔重點是完全沒有從人民口袋掏錢出來我們還被罵成這個樣子還被這個是很不值得還可以寫一句話選對的人掌對的錢吧"},{"start":14422.217,"end":14443.72,"text":"這是很惡劣的啦我希望就像部長剛才所講的嘛做假訊息然後媒體要參與其中是非常不應該啦快速回應啦好不好好謝謝106年到部長再看一個表106年到112年的機車倒減率部長可以看一下其實每年都有提升只有110年往下掉1%這個很奇怪"},{"start":14445.269,"end":14473.955,"text":"不用花人民納稅錢然後只要求一個倒減率怎麼維持都是在七十幾趴到現在沒辦法到八十幾趴九十幾趴然後有花款有蘿蔔有棒子部長我們來檢討一下這個會不會是我個人感覺當然要看數據實際上怎麼樣會不會比較偏鄉或者他周遭沒有這種定減地方他一般民眾就覺得"},{"start":14475.049,"end":14500.036,"text":"我還要為了定錢我要開騎摩托車還是怎麼那麼遠啊我不曉得我個人的感覺現在有移動式的定錢也不是在一個特定的點所以這個應該是可以提高啦好不好已經換了部長所以不是對不起已經換了署長變成部長也不對環保署已經不見現在變環境部有新部長就會有不一樣的作為"},{"start":14501.556,"end":14515.893,"text":"最後一件事情齁 全國應該還有六七個縣市沒有混化爐嘛 對不對沒有那麼多 現在只有 台灣本島只有南投 外島當然因為規模跟外面比較小 所以我們來去處理沒有混化爐只有南投 南投"},{"start":14518.1,"end":14544.39,"text":"公營的公辦公營的民辦民營的我們都會其實三年前本來就是新竹縣跟那個現在現在就是環保署有在補助嘛環境部對不起就這SRF的這個系統嘛然後我們地方政府也有辦一個叫做零廢棄的自然化系統叫ZWS嘛他分別可以將垃圾製成RDF跟SRF的這個"},{"start":14545.35,"end":14562.346,"text":"：議員"},{"start":14564.187,"end":14591.706,"text":"這個連環保局局長都自己承認了會擔心廠商在防治社會不足或者鍋爐不適合的情況之下會不會燒出東西有問題這個地方的環保局局長都講出這種話那你叫我們地方的就像我們雲林人怎麼會不擔心那我現在掌握的就是大氣環境師他是有針對公司場域固定污染源應符合焚燒比例及成分標準之燃料還有公司場所固定污染源"},{"start":14592.686,"end":14593.266,"text":"我們在進行SF"},{"start":14616.316,"end":14642.765,"text":"產品的分類的現在有在積極進行我第一次追尋部長的時候就特別跟你提到全國的SRF可能要大盤整大盤點那現在這個問題他製造出來的固體再生燃料真的是問題多多然後要接受的焚化爐能不能焚化不再造成二次公害也問題更多嘛是不是部長給我一個時間看"},{"start":14645.359,"end":14674.725,"text":"如果來做這相關的盤整應應處理知道事實上我們產品的分類現在循環署也都已經出來了是包括排放的標準我們也都修訂了在部內我們在這一部分大概已經OK了那接下來當然就是要跟各界來做溝通因為包括環談他們有不同的一些意見跟看法業者也是一樣他們有不同的看法那當我們多收集他們的想法之後我們再把它"},{"start":14676.267,"end":14679.013,"text":"這個修法。好,差不多大概多久時間?"},{"start":14684.127,"end":14687.288,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員那因為現場蔡易瑜委員登記發言的時候已經唱名"},{"start":14708.837,"end":14710.458,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請薛部長。請薛部長"},{"start":14735.03,"end":14741.435,"text":"謝文豪剛才劉委員不知道他請你那杯咖啡是你們環境部買的"},{"start":14744.147,"end":14772.692,"text":"我想要請問薛部長你上任以來你認為環境部對於我們整個就是環境的推動你們是阻礙還是助力我們在推動的廢清法的這個問題上面其實我問了很多的工業區的那我們希望把就是減廢把所有的失業廢棄物是零廢的情況下那但是在這個過程當中你們有做溝通嗎"},{"start":14775.258,"end":14789.945,"text":"我們循環署應該都有跟業界定期在舉辦是跟地方政府嗎還是跟業界都有還有跟木地事業主管機關我們會跟木地事業主管一起來跟那個我們的木地事業業界"},{"start":14790.926,"end":14815.886,"text":"對你們有沒有讓就是業者直接知道因為他們在減費的過程當中他會誤以為他現在負擔的是好像更嚴重的稽查的一個情況那如果你們只是要觀測減費的情況那是不是應該要讓他們瞭解那畢竟我們如果沒有業者的配合整個減費的那個"},{"start":14819.809,"end":14843.733,"text":"規劃目標也沒有辦法達成是不是所以這個還是要業者配合那我們會用政策還有這個輔導的方式引導他來做那部長你今天早上也回答了是不是目前就是我昨天在經濟部經濟委員會問了王部長你們目前開徵探費的提成是什麼時候"},{"start":14845.146,"end":14854.661,"text":"一照原來的規劃我們在今年的3月底希望會議審議委員會能夠訂出碳費的費率"},{"start":14860.209,"end":14885.135,"text":"我們昨天已經把這一屆的碳會費力審議委員會的名單公布那他們明天要召開第一次的會議所以我們當然是期待是可以順利的能夠按當初的規劃不過整個大環境也做了一些改變我們也希望費力審議委員會也能夠衡量包括國內外的情勢"},{"start":14886.255,"end":14903.91,"text":"以及我們民生跟產業等等的發展去做綜合的一個判斷因為環境部開增碳費不是我們最主要的目的我們最主要目的是減碳所以我們非常強調企業要去做自主"},{"start":14904.971,"end":14931.518,"text":"簡單的計畫他可以獲得非常好的但是你們的探探權的認證例如好我們說現在希望有生靈探權是不是就是我們但是如果沒有認證的時候你自己去照靈並不會產生探權嗎是不是不會他只要沒有經過程序按照環境部核定的方法學你自己去種樹沒有用"},{"start":14933.098,"end":14956.824,"text":"是所以這個民間所有的企業都不清楚的情況下他們就沒有辦法去就是擁有這個探權啊即便他們去中訴了所以這個部分我認為是一個非常嚴重的資訊落差這個部分是歸你們還是歸經濟部還是歸農業部這個其實是跨部會的是你們在檢參辦公室有沒有討論啊是是是"},{"start":14962.745,"end":14968.009,"text":"新聞報告事實上在森林碳會的這一塊事實上是屬於海農業部我們都有分工的"},{"start":14990.808,"end":15009.268,"text":"那至於產業界的福道排碳大戶大概是環境部我們積極來協助他們怎麼去包括碳盤查那中小企業的這一塊是以經濟部來主導環境部來做配合所以給社員協會人報告放心事實上我們有在"},{"start":15011.089,"end":15037.656,"text":"沒有辦法放行因為你們就是因為跨部會然後都沒有整合好那對於企業還有對於農民他們或者甚至對於漁民或者是潮間貸他們所擁有的碳會他們都不是完全清楚的狀況下那如果大家對於自然環境不曉得會產生多少的碳權的情況下那有可能未來對於這些產業的規劃"},{"start":15039.156,"end":15062.203,"text":"也會不清楚所以我認為這個腳步是沒有辦法停的即便國際的就是說CBAN他們的腳步好像沒有我們預期中的快的情況下我們當然也是亦步亦趨因為我們沒有辦法超越他們嗎我們的確是在這個碳交易裏面或者甚至在氣候變遷的這個碳權裏面我們也是一個"},{"start":15065.484,"end":15088.645,"text":"就是小的經濟體那怎麼樣子在這個過程當中我們做好更好的準備我認為環境部是沒有辦法就是晃慢角度的所以你認為你認為你自己的目前你給自己打幾分我不打分數我不會給誰人報告你是老師啊你是老師你不是最習慣打分數"},{"start":15089.366,"end":15107.214,"text":"他們從去年10月會員本來要求進出口到歐盟的那個廠商要去爆炭族機結果只有10%去爆炭族機所以我的意思是說任何政策剛剛開始實施的時候事實上它會有一些這個挑戰必須經過那段時間以後才會"},{"start":15110.575,"end":15128.67,"text":"但是我認為你可以把他們現在腳步放緩是當作你自己我們可以加速我們內部在整合這個因為其實跨部會裡面都沒有整合好啊那這樣子你們都沒整合好中小企業怎麼做?文明怎麼做?移民怎麼做?我覺得應該整合的還算不錯啦好 謝謝好 謝謝謝伊鳳委員接下來請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":15148.083,"end":15174.643,"text":"好謝謝主席那我是不是有請部長薛部長還有這個大氣環境師蔡文豪張司長部長這個嘉義市他們就是偶爾來就是他們現在要興建焚化爐的地方那麼現在縣子是把它叫做環保的一個環保戰志環保回收物戰存場"},{"start":15175.902,"end":15203.807,"text":"那分別在111年的8月21號跟112年的2月24號以及今年剛發生沒多久113年的2月20號分別發生大火分身大火然後這個大火造成了臨近包括水上包括中埔甚至到的太保鹿草都可以聞到這個惡臭非常的臭那我要請教部長的是說那這樣的一個叫做回收物的戰事場"},{"start":15205.507,"end":15229.014,"text":"他完全不受到任何的管理嗎?或者是法條的一些約束嗎?是這樣的嗎?有,我們對戰事場事實上是有要求他要做某一些設施包括譬如說裝監視器還有甚至是可以感應他溫度的變化的這些設施,事實上是有要求"},{"start":15229.454,"end":15247.395,"text":"但是這一個案子你們也有到現場去我第一時間就請我們環境部啊稽查大隊嘛南部大隊去然後說有沒有相關的影像啊有沒有照片啊甚至是怎麼起火的當時的影像都沒有都只有在火災事後的現況"},{"start":15250.229,"end":15273.815,"text":"在當下是沒有任何火災的當下是沒有任何記錄的不過跟蔡委員報告因為嘉義市福祉內這間案件其實它是因為過年期間額外因為過年大家都知道說因為可能是大掃除那特別很多的這些這個回收物所以它暫時儲存在那個地方"},{"start":15274.415,"end":15290.047,"text":"不是不是他也不是過年暫時儲存喔他那裡就是就是就是在做環保品的齁環保品然後他又放好久捏回收戶放好久他不是說過年放而已喔齁所以不就這件在五回"},{"start":15290.867,"end":15300.294,"text":"他是真的都這幾年就是放在那邊那當然這一塊未來他們就是要把他蓋焚化爐要為燒爐變大爐就是現在日燒300噸要300萬噸要把他增加到500萬噸要變大爐然後現在這裡就定義說他們的本事就全部放在這裡一包一包包起來那我要請教部長說因為他把他叫做戰存場他變得說他法律約束不到他"},{"start":15321.367,"end":15341.697,"text":"然後所以你說應該要進場齁應該要有紀錄 阿不然也要入面說齁有多少入面 有齁有多少東西入面都沒有捏 都沒有記錄捏 然後阿去年也是過年之後 過年之後一星期就恢修今年也過年之後一星期就恢修 是不是裡面東西太多 阿再過去幫忙修它"},{"start":15345.922,"end":15363.151,"text":"這個聽起來很諷刺可是就是辭職發生阿連續兩年欸是是跟委員報告那他這個資收場的確是場地是不夠大他已經在規劃另外一個比較完整的那個場地那好那我想要請教現在有在規劃那現在燒掉了因為燒掉的空間都出來了他們可以繼續在裡面再放嗎"},{"start":15364.264,"end":15393.041,"text":"因為你們都沒有記錄啊本來說一個支收場它可以容量多少的垃圾這個應該是有總量管制的嘛那因為它今年半會社會已經在半會社會都從零開始那還可以再放嗎我覺得應該是那我想在這個館裡面我們會再跟環保局這邊再來我這很難想像因為我請我們那天稽查大隊到了現場然後我說欸你這張也要我看著回到 倒起來那瞬間的畫面都沒有啊都沒有"},{"start":15393.761,"end":15416.059,"text":"對啊整個惡臭然後昨天好像嘉義市議會有在議員在諮詢這件事他們還告訴社會大眾說沒那麼吵我可以說沒那麼吵是因為齁都在過年的時候會燒所以都是吹燈泡開風所以都南部的吵啦我們水上中部的吵啦跟他一起沒什麼吵到大概就過年過的吵完啦"},{"start":15417.2,"end":15439.921,"text":"我們真的很難接受那我再用最後一分鐘我要請教一下部長就剛剛講這一塊就是嘉義市過去一盆化爐然後現在他要蓋大樓嘛然後照理這個環境影響評估在做環評的時候這個環評是嘉義市政府自己我環評然後環評的時候照理是不是要跟鄰近的居民要有溝通"},{"start":15440.661,"end":15467.615,"text":"結果他辦了一場公聽會他說以環境影響評估辦法第12條他辦了一場公聽會這場公聽會因為我們覺得自己放在外面那個地方自己沒有人不在臨近我們的水上臨近我們的中部我們那是人口密集的地方所以我主要和陳柏林議員林鄉庭鄉長當時是議員黃榮鈞議員還有水上跟中埔的公所我們一起去公聽會抗議"},{"start":15469.791,"end":15492.66,"text":"說啊您的嘉義市喔您的擇址的地點離我們嘉義縣太近了我們很不很不高興我們去抗議啊我們去抗議如果我們不去沒問題喔我們去抗議以後他們現在抓到了那個環境影響評估說哦嘉義縣從蔡易宇立委陳柏霖議員林祥廷議員黃東俊議員已經出席公聽會並且表示意見所以跟地方就算溝通完了"},{"start":15496.202,"end":15510.235,"text":"給蔡委員報告我事實上是認同跟支持蔡委員的觀點就是說未來環境部將來在這些環評案子應該去思考以那個不管是魂化爐還是什麼事情發生的"},{"start":15510.836,"end":15523.841,"text":"的中心周遭的地方都應該拿去考量是阿是阿因為現在說以行政單位嘛然後以嘉義市放在他們最邊邊的我支持這種觀點對阿但是這樣對我們真的很不公平這個是文化爐啦可是我現在對這個戰事場連兩年火災沒有相關的影像沒有相關的紀錄我覺得這件事情不對"},{"start":15538.663,"end":15540.504,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員委員接下來請陳盈委員"},{"start":15577.124,"end":15581.617,"text":"謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長"},{"start":15585.402,"end":15610.623,"text":"陳文豪部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼?"},{"start":15612.532,"end":15628.059,"text":"事實上是同整因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那時候蔡總統就責成那時候的環保署"},{"start":15636.961,"end":15648.224,"text":"所以主要還是為了把關食品安全的源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的整個安全度的提升"},{"start":15649.885,"end":15671.699,"text":"首先當然最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件。蘇丹紅物質的毒性它是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品。這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物。"},{"start":15672.199,"end":15679.824,"text":"好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別"},{"start":15702.439,"end":15710.793,"text":"對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下"},{"start":15712.53,"end":15737.532,"text":"報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名這個我瞭解是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的"},{"start":15738.012,"end":15766.795,"text":"好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是"},{"start":15767.515,"end":15782.956,"text":"啊我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在"},{"start":15783.917,"end":15810.556,"text":"自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上"},{"start":15811.056,"end":15834.911,"text":"他還有其他部分我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在檢查"},{"start":15836.872,"end":15860.935,"text":"他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已"},{"start":15861.536,"end":15889.017,"text":"那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distribution management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做"},{"start":15889.457,"end":15905.509,"text":"做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照獨管法來講就我們公告的獨化或關注化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可"},{"start":15906.149,"end":15931.084,"text":"要申報那要標示這些所以我們在網路上的話就從這個資料庫上是可以一個一個去做一個去向的流向比如他從跟誰買他賣給誰要多少每個月都要申報所以這個從這個申報資料是可以去做勾結比對然後再到現場去查核這個實際的東西那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理"},{"start":15931.764,"end":15950.622,"text":"通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊"},{"start":15951.403,"end":15966.198,"text":"好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事"},{"start":15967.287,"end":15985.574,"text":"那就違反那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口嘛吼那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉去那這樣出來這個部分吶就是我們獨管法管轄的那就違反了就把就在國內啦吼把它加進來這樣子就違反了"},{"start":15987.13,"end":16009.555,"text":"所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那"},{"start":16010.615,"end":16034.12,"text":"那是以後也都這個再繼續調查下去通通都不會有給我們報告因為他進口的是辣椒粉辣椒粉不是環境部在管最主要是辣椒粉他是食藥署在管那這個就是你們的法規是針對這個進口商中間商還是說末端的這個使用端去做懲處通通都要"},{"start":16034.4,"end":16041.735,"text":"通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理"},{"start":16043.078,"end":16062.548,"text":"當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個"},{"start":16065.435,"end":16088.13,"text":"但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊"},{"start":16088.69,"end":16116.907,"text":"不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣"},{"start":16118.701,"end":16145.22,"text":"我們其實在獨厚館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部"},{"start":16147.342,"end":16166.88,"text":"農業部甚至國科會的科技研發教育部大學的教學實驗其實都跟你們有非常密切的關係所以你們平常是有合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的"},{"start":16169.096,"end":16188.128,"text":"有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論"},{"start":16189.538,"end":16215.362,"text":"因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游"},{"start":16215.742,"end":16216.042,"text":"我們來持續加油"},{"start":16238.752,"end":16240.813,"text":"好謝謝陳委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉翔楊耀邱正軍所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":16254.08,"end":16271.425,"text":"現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15723","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e6d0b2a5b2cc6652c0f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be411738cab33b1185b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-14","start_time":"2024-03-14T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:47:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15374,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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Global估計上年全球經濟成長率由2022年3.1%降至2.7%本年續降至2.5%"},{"start":1970.359,"end":1987.844,"text":"SNP Global Global预测本年全球消费者物价指数连增率由上年之5.6%降至4.7%本年主要经济体劳动市场情势可望放缓通膨率将续降温为多仍高于2%"},{"start":1989.637,"end":2011.342,"text":"預期費得及ECB可能將降二開始降息BOJ結束負利率人行則加大寬鬆利道一上年10月以來美英歐同盤率下降加以政策利率以具限制性因美英歐央行均已停止升級並維持政策利率不變市場預測本年"},{"start":2013.743,"end":2022.708,"text":"美英歐央行將開始降息二日本央行為實現2%物價穩定目標續採寬鬆貨幣政策以促進薪資及物價朝向良向循環方向發展市場預測本年3月或4月將結束負利率政策"},{"start":2033.093,"end":2040.338,"text":"為人將維持貨幣寬鬆以支撐經濟穩健的復甦中國大陸經濟復甦疲軟將強化寬鬆貨幣力道以刺激經濟成長三上年10月以來美元指數震盪左跌主要經濟十年期公債之利益都回落"},{"start":2053.266,"end":2069.748,"text":"近月因美國多數企業財報又預期加以人工智慧相關產品需求強勁全球股市在半導體類股上漲下那走深二國內經濟金融情勢方面"},{"start":2070.666,"end":2081.496,"text":"一、本年經濟成長率將優於上年。上年第四季臺灣輸出及投資成長率動能頻頻為民間消費穩健成長加以比較積極較低經濟成長升至4.93%"},{"start":2088.221,"end":2096.383,"text":"全年平均經濟成長率則降為1.31%低於2022年的2.59%二預期本年臺灣輸出與民間投資成長回溫加以民間消費持續成長且上年基期較低本年經濟成長率將優於上年國內外主要機構對臺灣本年經濟成長率預測都逾3%平均為3.18%"},{"start":2117.89,"end":2131.277,"text":"上年通膨回降預期本年續降至2%左右上年CPR年增率由2022年的2.95回降至2.49%上漲主因系外食弱類等食物類"},{"start":2132.658,"end":2153.396,"text":"價格左升加以國人休閒娛樂消費供不應求業者調漲住宿及旅遊團會娛樂服務會上漲以及房租調高核心CPI年增益則為2.58列低於2022年的2.61本年1至2月平均CPI及核心CPI年增益為2.43% 2.27%維持反部回降趨勢"},{"start":2160.661,"end":2178.985,"text":"國際機構預測本年油價較上年劣降國內商品類價格將溫和上漲加以國內服務類價格受高基期影響漲幅可望趨緩本年國內通膨率預期低於上年國內外主要機構對臺灣本年CPI年增率預測介於1.64%到2.5%平均為1.94%"},{"start":2184.74,"end":2187.706,"text":"4銀行信用成長上升為貨幣總技術成長減緩銀行與貨幣市場利益小幅波動"},{"start":2194.096,"end":2222.193,"text":"上年10月以來銀行對民營商業本票及公司債投資增加加以出口轉成正成長企業資金需求回穩以及房貸年增率續升銀行放款及投資年增率持續走升至12月底為6.58%本年1月底續升為6.94%主因銀行對政府債權增加加以銀行對個人房貸及理財周轉金年增率上升所致"},{"start":2224.138,"end":2236.325,"text":"上年以來國內的M2廉政率續下降目前M2一月已經回降到5.44本年預估本年M2廉政率續趨緩和將落在2.5%到6.5%之間"},{"start":2243.075,"end":2261.063,"text":"三主要一本行主要業務方面關於本行採行漸進溫和的緊縮貨幣政策一直國內通膨一起心理為維持物價穩定協助國內穩定健全成長關於二本行選擇性信任管制措施"},{"start":2262.543,"end":2285.712,"text":"實施以來不動產貸款成長率趨降不動產貸款之預放比例維持低檔本行將密切關注房地產相關政策對房市的可能影響並持續檢視不動產貸款情形以本行管制措施指引成效適時調整相關措施內容以促進金融穩定及健全銀行業務三本行調節會市維持會市運作順暢"},{"start":2289.013,"end":2303.201,"text":"上年迄今新台幣對美元略為貶值相對主要貨幣匯率穩定上年上半年國內匯市美元供需大致均衡本行淨賣匯8.8億美元新台幣貶值1.37%下半年外資獲利了結台股"},{"start":2309.024,"end":2318.93,"text":"並同鼓勵匯出本行進場調節禁賣費18.9億美元新台幣升值1.3%上年全年本行累計禁賣費27.7億美元新台幣兌美元貶值0.09%為貶幅小於韓元1.82%還有人民幣的貶值1.98及日元的負的貶值7.03%等主要貨幣"},{"start":2335.279,"end":2357.012,"text":"本年以來美國經濟及通膨仍具韌性加以費的主席Power表示不太可能在本年3月降息美元指數上揚新台幣對美元走弱本年迄今3月11日新台幣對美元貶值2.16%降無小於澳幣、泰銖及日元等主要貨幣"},{"start":2358.649,"end":2381.001,"text":"台灣為小型開放經濟體貿易依存度高且外匯市場屬前諜型維持新台幣匯率相對穩定有其必要長期以來新台幣對美元匯率波動小於新加坡幣、歐元、日元及韓元等主要歐幣有利廠商之報價及盈利亦有助國內金融穩定與經濟成長"},{"start":2383.103,"end":2410.849,"text":"二、本行外幣流動性充裕本年二月底本行外幣存底為5694億美元較上年底減少12億美元主要反映本行為維持外幣市場秩序進展調節以及主要貨幣對美元貶值式匯率變動因素三、有關外幣存底與主權財務基金之相關議題中央銀行法第20條及第33條條文修正草案你設立之外"},{"start":2411.769,"end":2436.521,"text":"會投資基金系公司設立屬獨立盈利之個體以央行法第20條等得設立之基金信職獎益且其目的以央行法定職權顯有違和故應獨立於央行法之外且不宜由央行主管二修正央行法第23條亦無法達到草案尼設立主權財務基金"},{"start":2441.311,"end":2464.342,"text":"之目的已以專法規範之此外已開發國家設立主權機都已專法規範其設立及運作尚無已央行法規範者。三上年5月立法院財委會舉辦之公聽會中定立專法亦為專家學者相關政府部會代表與立法委員之多數共事。"},{"start":2465.242,"end":2485.368,"text":"同月財委會審議應出席委員都有不同看法該草案並會討論及散會令3月9月行政院以責成國發會嚴厲我國設立主權財務機制議題四完善資務清算體系提供新台幣誇行資金多轉最終清算服務"},{"start":2487.626,"end":2500.32,"text":"5.協助推廣行動支付1.推廣行動支付共通支付標準為建構更完善的行動支付環境本行持續督促財經公司"},{"start":2501.68,"end":2512.044,"text":"協同銀行推廣QR Code共通支付標準上年交易金額及比數分別為3970億元及9384萬幣各較2022年成長26%及18%二建置電子支付跨機構共用平台六持續推動CBDC研究計畫"},{"start":2527.557,"end":2535.33,"text":"以2020年及2022年分別完成批發型CBDC可行性技術研究及零售型CBDC試驗計畫"},{"start":2537.557,"end":2552.553,"text":"您所行CBDC計劃之結果已錄製成中英文版影片公布於本行官網二科政進行意見調查及精進平台設計兩項工作一委託專業調研機構針對CBDC涉及的各項層面向公眾政府機關"},{"start":2559.3,"end":2583.725,"text":"產業界及學術者等辦理意見調查而持續調整及精進平台架構提升交易處理量能並探索創新應用並針對收戶雙方皆無網路連線之情景研究解決方案參與國際組織CPTC沙盒試驗就跨境貿易等主要所涉及CPTC跨境資助作業進行流程設計討論與測試"},{"start":2587.286,"end":2608.436,"text":"3配合意見調查及精進平台設計兩項工作之進展持續收集主要國家CBDC相關法治動向資料事實演繹我國法律架構並盤點發行CBDC需要需配合訂定或修正之相關法規確保其可行性增強市場對CBDC的信任"},{"start":2614.213,"end":2630.707,"text":"結論以上僅就國內外經濟金融情勢與本行主要業務提出檢討報告至於本行調節金融通貨發行外貨管理及經理國庫等業務概況則至於賦入敬請著參本行捐付促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內及對外地址穩定"},{"start":2633.85,"end":2655.228,"text":"堅固協助經濟發展之法定職責隨時密切注意國內外經濟金融形勢發展妥適運用各種政策工具以達成政策目標本欄亦述呈各位委員頂住與支持僅藉此機會表達衷心感謝之意今後仍請各位委員實事指教謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2661.894,"end":2678.091,"text":"接著我們要開始詢答每位委員8分鐘延長2分鐘列席委員5分鐘必要延長1分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現在請第一位林德福林委員質詢"},{"start":2687.873,"end":2703.91,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席呃楊總裁還有與會各央行的各單位呃列席主管還有呃我們本會的委員以及啊所有媒體記者女士先生是不是請那個楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":2715.448,"end":2741.917,"text":"總裁早我請教你我想因為很多民眾他們就是最近也一直問因為我們都知道最近那個ETF很夯那這個很多人就是認為說這個他有股息的分配嘛然後有的什麼月配啦有的季配啦有的半年配啦等等"},{"start":2743.177,"end":2765.349,"text":"那在整個市場是真的非常的夯而且他所佔的比例也很高那我要請教總裁說像這麼夯那你認為這個ETF到底他有存在有哪些風險你的看法呢當然啦ETF是他的風險第一個就是說他會"},{"start":2770.444,"end":2779.45,"text":"注帳上去大家都上去好像上去比較多下來比較少目前看是這樣子目前是這樣啦還是整個大市長久他也是會波動大家都上去大家都下來這是他的風險一樣的啦就是說"},{"start":2790.218,"end":2799.949,"text":"那這個就是說你投資資產的時候都是會有這樣的一個風險那最近委員也知道那個金管會也對這個ETF這樣子的熱絡他也覺得是有一點太"},{"start":2806.736,"end":2829.762,"text":"我覺得他也認為是有一點太過了太熱了所以呢他也要採取一些的措施配合的措施要來壓抑他的這個因為很多民眾想了解阿我想央行你們的立場要讓大家了解大家就一窩蜂的這個就喝頂這個就是說金融市場裡面在講的就是說群眾的那個什麼群眾的那個的效率"},{"start":2835.624,"end":2836.025,"text":"我再請教總裁"},{"start":2850.083,"end":2858.867,"text":"因為主計總署預估今年的CPI年增率上修到0.21%到1.85%不過這次的通膨預測並未包括電價的調整所以說"},{"start":2869.952,"end":2890.722,"text":"等到電價調整確定後CPI有機會再往上修那我請問總裁電價調整對各行業的價格是不是一定會發生一些連鎖的效應呢我在想就是說基本上他的直接效果是一定會的啦那間接的效果就是說7月"},{"start":2891.943,"end":2896.005,"text":"我請教總裁到底他會個別反映還是連鎖反映因您的看法"},{"start":2909.632,"end":2929.384,"text":"還會不會有加成的一些效應啊這個也導致整個通膨預測的一個失準所以就是說委員我也跟委員報告中央銀行也就是說很怕的就是說我們很擔心的就是說這個會有一種連鎖性的連鎖性而且第二個會預期性的"},{"start":2932.666,"end":2948.323,"text":"因為我們打通膨呢 我們是預防這個通膨的預期的心理 這個我們非常注意 所以通膨啊 講到通膨啊 中央銀行是非常小心的 那如果要是個別反應 你認為哪些產業衝擊最大 個別的喔"},{"start":2950.565,"end":2954.567,"text":"各別的話我想一般的外食這些也都會有一些的產業以前我也看過一個paper有產業關聯表有哪些的產業它的衝擊會比較像電力或什麼的產業它的衝擊就會更大用電的就是用電的大一點衝擊的面會越大"},{"start":2977.099,"end":2977.339,"text":"對,我知道。"},{"start":2993.652,"end":3007.662,"text":"總裁,台電電價調整的方式是準備不分局劇,全面性的調漲只是漲幅的不同雖然疫情後通膨似乎已經有控制但你認為在這個時機來調漲電價,你認為適當嗎?"},{"start":3012.385,"end":3038.233,"text":"我跟委員報告這個也就是說經濟部據我了解經濟部也是為了就是說第一個就是說要看我們的預算給能夠補貼我們台電多少所以呢我看報紙啊我看媒體啊他也都是在講啊一千億或是一千五百億一千五百億的話他的調升呢他的幅度就會比較小一千億的話呢他的調升的幅度就會比較大"},{"start":3039.013,"end":3047.64,"text":"那現在呢就是說經濟部呢他也是就是說他們現在也是在開什麼會那這4月份的話就會做最後的那你認為在這個時機點來調漲電價對整個物價的影響會不會比過去啊有點雙長"},{"start":3055.706,"end":3079.633,"text":"那時候衝擊小還是有可能發生能預測的轉嫁效應呢因您看我覺得基本上從以往的來看衝擊是不會是很大不過這一次是因為他提早提出來所以大家都是很廣泛的去討論這個議題我比較擔心的是一個通膨預期的心理"},{"start":3085.891,"end":3102.51,"text":"對啊那那就是就他實際的一個影響呢我在想呢也不是如大家所說非常擔心的就是說我會大家都會一直一直調帳調帳也不會說有可能以前等你先前現在就在講嗯會不會就是"},{"start":3103.871,"end":3120.442,"text":"這個可能發生難以預期的這些轉嫁效應會不會因為就是說就主管機關來講的話呢因為他的調整呢是固定的就是四月嘛四月和十月嘛"},{"start":3120.762,"end":3122.283,"text":"總裁,因為12年前郵電雙廠的背景相信當時身為副總裁的你應該還記憶猶新"},{"start":3145.154,"end":3166.096,"text":"臺金縣景氣預測中心孫明德主任認為說從主計總處二月的消費者物價指數年增率暴漲至3.08%再加上四月電價調漲再急利率恐怕"},{"start":3167.177,"end":3179.926,"text":"會有檢討的機會這些政策利率的政策可能會有檢討的機會那我請問總裁下個禮拜這個中央銀行要開理監事會會不會討論利率的問題包委員每次這個利率的問題都會討論也就是說對也會討論"},{"start":3188.106,"end":3204.524,"text":"我相信會討論在通膨餘率沒有消除消費者物價指數有可能因為電價調漲出現2%的餘率那請問總裁央行下半年有沒有可能不會降息會不會"},{"start":3208.327,"end":3210.309,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":3229.828,"end":3244.466,"text":"因為我們台灣升息的速度跟歐美這些不大一樣我們是很委婉的持續的慢慢的上升我知道那要是像這種狀況會不會說沒有降息反而是升息的可能這個我們會討論"},{"start":3246.809,"end":3265.789,"text":"會討論會討論因為你要一致通膨是我們特別我剛剛也是在講就是說通膨的預期心理那這個通膨的預期心理那如果說這個預期如果說像以前我們的通膨都是1%左右平均長期都是平均那現在如果假設說是平均1.5"},{"start":3267.49,"end":3281.444,"text":"或是1.5到2%以上的話那這個呢很顯然就是結果性有一些的改變那這個利率呢恐怕就不會像以前那樣的利率呢就恐怕不會像以前的那麼的低檔那個"},{"start":3284.844,"end":3293.936,"text":"總裁,因為主計長媒體報導說主計處估算如果民生用電調漲10%對CPI直接影響是0.12%並且企業電價調高也會轉嫁成本加上最近"},{"start":3303.268,"end":3318.717,"text":"包括這個眷保的掛號會啊條長等等效應啊今年通膨率將再度逼近啊百分之二的通膨警戒警戒線甚至於有可能破百分之二總裁那對比油電雙長的時候"},{"start":3320.538,"end":3344.409,"text":"那種經濟的情勢本席是認為目前的經濟環境應該是更為險峻那當時為了展現政府意志通膨的決心央行實施多項的政策手段請問面對4月電價調漲央行準備好了嗎還是真的要雙手一攤放任民生這些消費的物資這個"},{"start":3346.91,"end":3368.939,"text":"變成天花板的物價持續的往上拉我該委員報告我們會很謹慎的我們會這一次會很謹慎的來討論這個利率因為本期是憂心說近期恐怕又有缺水的疑慮再加上碳會要開增後的影響通盆捲土重來那請問總裁這是經濟成長國家的民眾應該期待的一個結果嗎"},{"start":3375.662,"end":3375.822,"text":"教會請吳秉瑞吳委員諮詢"},{"start":3417.853,"end":3419.474,"text":"主席麻煩請央行楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":3430.081,"end":3446.394,"text":"我在很多的資料上面看到總體經濟學的學者他有這樣的講法說一個國家CPI應該要溫和適度的上漲不能太低甚至更不能麻辣死因為麻辣死很可能就引發通縮"},{"start":3448.769,"end":3474.131,"text":"我只要問你那個標準因為就幾個學者的標準他們是抓CPI2他們認為2是比較OK的狀況低於1就很不妙高於3也很不妙不知道你這個講法你贊不贊成這個就是說委員講的沒有錯不過我稍微再補充一下就先進國家來講他是這樣子沒有錯但是對開發中國家來講的話"},{"start":3476.993,"end":3497.804,"text":"開發中國家因為他的經濟成長都一直在往前嘛所以他的通膨率基本上呢都會比較高所以呢很多開發中國家呢他的通膨率有的3%到6%3%8%到7%這個就是他的range所以呢也就是說各個國家的一個發展的程度的不一樣所以他的range就會不一樣"},{"start":3497.964,"end":3515.021,"text":"那你認為臺灣應該在哪個range是比較好?一到三之間是比較合理我們還是以2作為基準他最好不要距離2太遠所以不應該把2叫做通膨警戒性如果叫警戒性應該是3"},{"start":3520.626,"end":3540.515,"text":"是不是,如果依照剛剛這個討論的話是沒有錯,委員我再補充一下就是說這個2呢也不是說2就是因為他通膨也不是說你碰到2那就不行不是,那是你讓他就像委員說的碰到3沒關係但是中長期的目標都一定要讓他回復到2%左右對,因為"},{"start":3542.896,"end":3571.417,"text":"其實我們的鄰國日本就是很好的例子長期的CPI都低但是他們失落了30年到了後面這幾年反而是日本政府想辦法要讓CPI能夠接近2所以這個日本政府也是為了這個付出相當的代價所以在什麼時空談論什麼議題的時候也是還是要有比較長遠的眼光最近一個議題很荒我想要請教你"},{"start":3572.277,"end":3600.127,"text":"去年因為第10屆立委本委員會有委員提這個財富主權基金那現在聽說他們同黨的在這個會期又要在捲土重來你對這個剛剛你的報告裡面有講他說你覺得有三個東西我有看了我是想要補充一下說別的國家對這個主權基金的"},{"start":3601.547,"end":3627.633,"text":"這個設置主要不是退休金不然的話就是他們國家的天然資源有要到天然氣石油所以有國家在掌控財富去弄去弄這個主權基金不過我要跟你說一個我的一點點我的看法如果台灣設主權基金啊你們現在有請這個行政院有請這個國發會在研究嘛賺錢大家都會很高興的賺的不夠還會罵你"},{"start":3629.133,"end":3633.175,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3656.087,"end":3684.492,"text":"因為他的一個整個的一個政治的結果跟我們台灣不大一樣不大一樣所以呢基本上呢他們是比較容易容易來就是說這個問題呢就比較不會就比較會淡化因為他的政治結果跟我們不大一樣好主席我來請教你總裁我來請教你一個問題是假設立法院硬塞了一個主權基金的法律嗯"},{"start":3686.697,"end":3706.071,"text":"行政院9月延年結果他不享受結果立法院用多數黨硬塞一個法令這樣這樣子在政治上適合嗎因為將來這個主權機關管理還是要行政機關來管理啊總不可能立法委員立法委員自己領選人來管理嘛所以"},{"start":3707.39,"end":3719.975,"text":"這個就是憲法裡面為什麼會規定說立法委員不得為增加預算的支出同樣的概念行政機關沒要花這筆錢你立法機關不能我一筆錢給你花"},{"start":3721.653,"end":3743.028,"text":"那人家要如何執行因為事實上在落實執行的是行政機關嘛所以我現在是請教你這個問題如果在野的多數黨一篩一個這樣的法令給你那你一再講說不要設在我央行這個跟我的基金都不合我也不管我就一一篩給你利用我是多數黨就一一篩給你那你要如何處理勒"},{"start":3746.148,"end":3761.496,"text":"這個阿包委員我也沒辦法回答這個問題啊我也沒辦法回答但是呢我還是在強調就是說全球的全球的主權基金因為講的主權呢主權就是政府的錢"},{"start":3762.765,"end":3789.02,"text":"那塞給中央銀行呢?因為中央銀行他是資產負債表我們的資產呢他的背後就是負債那是負債所以呢他是資產跟負債是平衡的不是說我這個資產不像那個政府的錢那主權財富基金那個是政府的錢那印塞在中央銀行的中央銀行法裡面呢他是完全是說不過去的"},{"start":3789.96,"end":3812.122,"text":"這個也就是說為什麼全球全世界的中央銀行法裡面沒有說來設主權基金這也是為什麼我們第10屆立委也是在一名的主席的開會的過程中最後他決定沒有去處理這個事情嘛就代表我們基本上有這樣的共識行政機關不願意的東西你立法機關硬塞給他"},{"start":3813.858,"end":3828.599,"text":"這個基本上基本上是違反憲法剛剛講的這個精神我當然這是類比因為憲法條文沒有明白講說你不可以立法這樣做他只是跟你講說你立法委員不可以為增加預算的提案"},{"start":3829.74,"end":3850.738,"text":"他意思是說行政機關沒有這個施政計畫沒有用這條錢沒有由立法院來發動硬要塞給行政機關叫他非花這條錢不可沒有不可以有這樣子的概念我是說舉這樣子一個是錢的一個是制度的行政機關現在沒有要這個制度你硬塞給他他如何執行"},{"start":3852.159,"end":3876.173,"text":"那他一個幹部院的執行也不可能有好好執行嘛那也不知道跟自己的制度漢格他也不知道如何處理嘛所以我是覺得這個應該有這一方面的聲音也要表達出來讓社會大眾多一些考慮跟思考的空間再來就是說你們現在有開始在研究這個數位的這個數位貨幣貨幣政策"},{"start":3879.295,"end":3899.361,"text":"我個人對這個東西瞭解不是非常的深但是我有幾個跟你討論的概念最早中國為什麼會趕快去發行這個電子支付大家都說什麼彎道超說他很先進其實不是啦一開始原因是因為中國的假超太多處理都處理不完嘛"},{"start":3900.461,"end":3919.336,"text":"第二個就是中國共產黨要嚴格的控制你錢可以在哪裡花所以你經過這個數字這個電子的支付你所有的交易軌跡跟誰交易在哪裡做什麼他全部都清清楚楚這個毫無這個毫無這個隱私可言"},{"start":3920.928,"end":3947.771,"text":"現在中國進一步要推他的數字人民幣我跟你說如果你違反政府你連一頓飯都沒得吃了因為我從頭上面把你的數字控制住你的銀行就馬上被他鎖住了你能花的錢就變零啊那你事實上已經沒有貨幣了他推到極致的時候是沒有貨幣的只有數字啊當他被你鎖住的時候當你把他鎖住的時候連一頓飯都吃不起"},{"start":3949.102,"end":3973.908,"text":"這是共產主義要的最重要一定要趕快推這個東西的我認為最主要的原因委員我也來稍微補充一下事實上最近我聽那個FED就是美國的那個聯準會的主席Power他也在講他說他們要推動這個CBDC他們要非常的小心特別是"},{"start":3975.908,"end":3999.026,"text":"對於隱私權的這個部分他必須要非常非常的小心那這個就會談到就是說剛剛委員所講到的就是說現在中國大陸他現在在推行這個隱私權的這個他就比較不care那這個就跟民主國家的一個隱私權的著重的重視是迥然不一樣的"},{"start":4000.855,"end":4026.235,"text":"總裁我再跟你補充喔其實中國現在也有開始反思的聲音出來了因為中國現在去中國的人當然因為他集權他立了一個什麼國安法使得大家都不想去可是其中一個因為他都用數字支付讓外國的旅客在中國使用非常的不方便他進到中國他如果沒有那個系統他如何把他的錢花出去都有困難啊"},{"start":4027.611,"end":4053.505,"text":"所以連中國的觀光旅遊業都現在都吃到這個苦果所以我的意思是說你要推動這個東西你在研究我也不是反對但是要研究清楚利弊得失都要考慮清楚那這個還有很長的一條路走不要很急因為日本這麼多年來日本的這個現金還是他們國人最喜歡用的東西好不好以上建議謝謝請你參考謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":4061.516,"end":4063.978,"text":"接著請賴世保賴委員質詢謝謝主席一起各先進有請楊金龍總裁請楊總裁老人早"},{"start":4086.257,"end":4091.64,"text":"我能不能講說現在都處於全球處於一個牛市可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":4112.955,"end":4140.496,"text":"目前為止暫時的牛市沒有錯我可以同意還可以維持多久不過我也跟委員報告因為美國他的一個金融市場漲的這個程度事實上市場也開始有一些的聲音出來了他有漲過頭你的意思是說美國股市漲得不健康是吧對他就說有泡沫之雨"},{"start":4140.936,"end":4166.844,"text":"好我圖沒有來來來有我看到一則報導說現在的美國股市講美國股市不是講台灣股市喔這外國人寫的一篇我們把它扣下來他說現在美國股市的走勢很像2008年的網路泡沫化那個那篇你看到沒有就Doccom的那個情況對我有"},{"start":4168.985,"end":4194.752,"text":"有,他也認為就是說可能就跟那個.com bubble是很相似的要提醒要抓起來全球金融市場未來會bubble嗎這個就是說所以呢我就有些時候就在想就是說金融市場他有些時候他就是說在理論上都說金融市場他本身會自我調整"},{"start":4195.552,"end":4221.839,"text":"但是這一句話呢是後來印證是不對在理論上都說金融市場會自我調整但是到最後你看看2008年呢他就整個crush下來他沒有自我調整啊他也是一樣的啊他也沒有自我調整啊所以呢也就是說市場呢是有些時候所以那個什麼Alan Greenspan有一個名言就是說非理性的融資"},{"start":4223.493,"end":4231.295,"text":"非理性的容金所以呢市場呢他不會的我們要說市場是理性的現在是不是非理性的容金"},{"start":4234.472,"end":4258.832,"text":"我們只能就是說用以前的來稍微做換了就是說如果理性的自我調整叫做軟著陸非理性的呢crush叫做硬著陸好我們現在再看一個specifically來講的話具體來講日本負利率要結束了"},{"start":4266.882,"end":4281.775,"text":"基本上呢短期間他可能會反映就是說他如果說他結束他的負利率但是負利率呢他是短期啦但是長期呢長期他還是寬鬆啊"},{"start":4282.896,"end":4297.983,"text":"相較其他的美國呢他還是寬鬆啊他只是說把他的那個那個什麼year curve的control就是說那個10年期的0%求你啦我問你他的互利率把他結束掉對於日本的經濟復甦有沒有幫助"},{"start":4299.644,"end":4305.57,"text":"所以這個就是說他非常謹慎的地方應該就是說他認為他是已經sustainable他已經是很穩定的成長了以後呢他才會結束他的互利"},{"start":4317.66,"end":4339.388,"text":"是不是日本的經濟會好起來吧比以前好吧當然現在以目前來講的話呢是所以呢他是上來我們來看美國過去大力升息美國現在基本利率多少現在美國基本利率是5%到5%我們幾幾基本利率多少我們大概將近2%將近2%他是5點多對"},{"start":4344.75,"end":4373.758,"text":"台灣過去因為他們美國要打打通膨是拼命升息台灣不太升現在呢大家預估說美國的FDFED他在6月份會降息可是相對的因為台灣有電價要漲啦我們現在CPI這個居高離下這個居高不下的情況之下所以台灣可能會升息嗯"},{"start":4377.44,"end":4398.758,"text":"我剛剛也有稍微談到這一點台灣要謹慎第一個就是說雖然我們現在大概2%但是你看我們如果說電價上漲的話就中央銀行的一個觀點我們上一次是將近我們的通膨率是比主力總數還高我們是估測是差不多1.9"},{"start":4400.279,"end":4422.567,"text":"那如果說你的電價一上漲的話呢恐怕就是說會突破2%那除了這個就2%可是8月份的CPA已經到3了對不對就是說2%是左右是沒有錯啦但是我們要想喔我們要想就是說我們的通膨率你看看"},{"start":4423.207,"end":4450.976,"text":"在前幾年的1.972.952.582.49然後呢現在又超過2那明年呢所以呢也就是說你的通膨如果說太長的話超過2太長的話呢那麼這個通膨的預期的心理呢就會很強勒以後呢你要把通膨再打下來你現在一直講2齁我剛剛一直跟你提醒了2月份已經3了"},{"start":4452.717,"end":4469.531,"text":"但是2月份3 3是因為是因為是結入的關係這個是一個是春節的關係所以1月跟2月相處兩個除起來的時候呢大概是2.43啦2.43是高的喔照你來所以可以這麼講楊金龍總裁心理的CPI防線大概就是2到2.5之間是不是"},{"start":4479.232,"end":4480.033,"text":"我可以這樣進一步推論"},{"start":4494.258,"end":4507.582,"text":"如果長期台灣的CPI到了2.5以上的話 我講長期也就是說拖個幾個月差不多樣樣就要升息了 不然控制不了 會這樣說嗎 我跟委員報告 我們會謹慎的來討論這個問題"},{"start":4512.625,"end":4524.228,"text":"但是請相與同意我的話這句話可以嗎?可以嗎?差不多啦差不多就是我講這句話啦電價上漲10%以上會不會產生結構性改變?"},{"start":4538.558,"end":4565.568,"text":"如果說是純粹只有電價的話那也不一定啦那也不一定因為剛剛已經電價帶動到57張啊什麼不一定奇怪這結構性的改變嗎剛剛我講到了兩個重點第一個重點就是通膨的預期第二個呢也就是說一個是螺旋式的也就是說我時間沒這麼多請你簡單回答就是電價上漲不會改變CPI的結構是不是你的意思應該是不會"},{"start":4566.751,"end":4567.516,"text":"應該是不會 不會喔 不會"},{"start":4569.672,"end":4570.132,"text":"會啦!"},{"start":4570.132,"end":4570.452,"text":"不會!"},{"start":4570.452,"end":4571.873,"text":"你看漲多少啦!"},{"start":4571.873,"end":4572.693,"text":"你要漲20%!"},{"start":4572.693,"end":4574.493,"text":"你看嘛!"},{"start":4574.493,"end":4575.453,"text":"漲28看看啦!"},{"start":4575.453,"end":4583.335,"text":"不會!我們所謂的結構性的改變就誠如我剛剛就說我們長期的時間都是差不多平均1%但是以後呢?"},{"start":4583.335,"end":4585.435,"text":"等一下漲上去長期就不會頂了!來來來!"},{"start":4585.435,"end":4585.916,"text":"我時間不多!不是!"},{"start":4585.916,"end":4589.116,"text":"那個結構那個是暫時性的結構的改變而不是長期性的結構我所說的長期性的結構是長期性的結構"},{"start":4599.238,"end":4620.433,"text":"這個委員很關心阿媒體也很關心阿我們那個EID阿數位身份證阿政府好高興喔說董委你要掐起10億賠損失結果我們討價人家2.8好高興結果人家馬上抓出來阿另外的委員說不是阿你買的設備是4.2億你告訴我是3.9億到底設備是3.9還是4.2"},{"start":4624.236,"end":4628.34,"text":"這個齁 詳細請請因為齁 這位委員來來來來講一下講一下 這個這個多少錢吶 來不及去跟委員報告一下齁 英治廠的設備和 不不不 你就講這個因為我時間快到了來 這個設備多少錢 3.9還是4.2 3.79億 3.79億 設備的 啊已經折救了3年對不對 3年我們折救了"},{"start":4649.295,"end":4655.704,"text":"1.34億還剩多少?還剩2.46億2.46億怎麼處理?早上怎麼處理?來告訴我目前我們跟內政部是暫緩執行當中所以合約還是保持在那邊?"},{"start":4665.446,"end":4682.524,"text":"暫緩實施他就不是資產啦他就根本以那個以那個這個會計準則他就不能當資產他等於是廢鐵一堆啦一定不會用啊這個案子沒有了請問這部機器能不能用到其他地方"},{"start":4683.324,"end":4711.091,"text":"這部機器我們現在跟內政部在考慮可以用在別的卡片上因為我們的機器它的生產這個機器專門用專門用數位的身份證不能用在別的地方啦所以基本上是等於全部報廢掉了這個東西是這樣啦這個設備我們現在跟內政部建議可以用在有卡片的有晶片的卡片或者沒有什麼時候可以有結果"},{"start":4712.151,"end":4735.456,"text":"那這個要等客戶內政部這邊決定我跟你講阿現在看起來這等於報廢掉了你沒想到不是只有報廢最後一題好不好最後一題來來你們兩位請回來總裁這是不是你的央行報告裡面破天荒幾十年來第一次在報告裡面主動提主權基金是不是是沒有錯"},{"start":4735.976,"end":4762.403,"text":"代表兩總裁注入這個事主權基金沒有錯我們主席這個讓你這麼發揮主席要給他肯定一下主席的用意都是很好的就是讓你講結果你現在把主權基金放進來我仔細的讀了一下我幫你摘幾個重點因為我時間快基本上到了不要耽誤其他我們太多時間但是讓我講完這個很重要"},{"start":4764.804,"end":4786.72,"text":"你贊成但是不贊成無償使用外匯存底對吧是沒有錯第二個如果是用政府的錢去存立什麼基金你通通沒有意見但是需要外匯來錢拿來台幣給我我還美金給你就這個意思嗎講八萬這樣對吧第三個"},{"start":4789.782,"end":4817.825,"text":"你反對修中央銀行法是沒有錯如果要設就設一個專法這個對吧對以上都對嗎沒有錯淡馬錫他們最喜歡講淡馬錫其他的國家的這些的其實他們都用政府的錢就是我剛剛所講的就是你報告寫的是需要買用到外匯跟央行買是沒有錯但是都是用他們自己的錢最後一點"},{"start":4819.742,"end":4836.858,"text":"國外一樣主權基金的操作績效不見得往後賠錢的也很多啦所以總而言之就是第一個你的重點就是要就立專法不可以修改銀行法第二個"},{"start":4838.223,"end":4852.349,"text":"你要用我的錢沒有無償的要錢拿來台幣給我我給你明鏡就這樣子沒錯吧以上所講的我跟你有這個對話我完全支持你的立場好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席主席辛苦了有請楊總裁楊總裁"},{"start":4872.208,"end":4899.076,"text":"國文早總裁好總裁拜讀你今天的這個業務報告內容當中預估今年的這個CPI的部分是1.89嘛GDP是3.12嘛對不對可是我每次這三年觀察你的這個預估值包括CPI也好或GDP也好有一個特性也就是CPI的部分通膨的這個指數的部分都是在2以下"},{"start":4899.716,"end":4899.736,"text":"2020就變2.95"},{"start":4922.91,"end":4948.537,"text":"啊2022的時候預估的這個GDP多少你是預估4.03但實質上呢是2.45到去年2023CPI蓬蓬的部分你去預估1.88實質上呢是2.5然後呢2023的部分呢GDP的部分呢你是預估2.53實質上是1.2特別是去年啊對啊"},{"start":4950.037,"end":4964.803,"text":"該2以下的它超過2GDP變成2.5該2以上的GDP它變成2以下變1.2所以去年就有人說是不是可能會有停滯性通膨當然是沒有那麼嚴重啦那接近啦有那種跡象啦"},{"start":4966.346,"end":4989.808,"text":"總裁,您今天的預估會準嗎?我跟委員報告,事實上就是說...你前兩年都漏氣耶對,沒有錯而且你還有動用升息耶我要誠實要跟委員報告就確實就是說央行這幾年的一個預測都沒有很準確都不準啊對不對都不準"},{"start":4990.268,"end":5015.388,"text":"但是呢我當然啦這個也許我這樣子講委員會認為就是說我推卸責任事實上呢全球每一個機構的預測都沒有準那也因為因為你有比較過全國每個機構都沒有準那你是比較不準的不準那一個還是比較接近準的那一個也許我們會比較準我們是不準但是比較準"},{"start":5016.994,"end":5034.933,"text":"有這麼接近不準的準嗎對對對對因為這個是我跟委員報告喔預測齁你不要台灣人民不會去看其他機構啦只會看你而已啦當然當然但是呢就是說我要跟委員報告就是說這幾年為什麼就是說大家都不準你要想想看喔"},{"start":5036.234,"end":5047.217,"text":"從中美貿易衝突之後過來呢就是COVID-19二屋戰爭那美國的battle neck supply chain的那個battle neck我跟委員報告那個時候呢"},{"start":5054.139,"end":5058.642,"text":"總裁不好意思我打斷你啊因為那個是真的大問題我沒有時間聽你說但我很願意聽啊但質詢時間非常寶貴我現在就問你嘛明年你有沒有把握嗎"},{"start":5076.93,"end":5083.917,"text":"你剛剛講的那個已經發生好幾年了喔現在沒有新的國際情勢變數了喔中美衝突已經衝突好幾年了喔國際戰爭也是在持續喔所以說在這種情況底下變數沒有變的情況底下你保證這一個3.12跟1.89可以達成嗎"},{"start":5100.039,"end":5109.967,"text":"我想這個3.12比較容易啦比較容易我在想這個3.12是比較容易那然後呢這個CPI的這個1.89就是說2024年的1.89我們的1.89沒有放這個電價"},{"start":5118.955,"end":5124.816,"text":"沒有放電價所以說1.89的挑戰性比較高變數比較大所以1.89比較沒有把握GDP3.12部分比較有把握但是委員我要跟委員報告就是說這個CPI呢我們這3個月份的理監事會會很謹慎的去討論它真的要很謹慎我知道但是你都不會講到底會不會調所以我不用問"},{"start":5146.681,"end":5170.077,"text":"接下來我問的說你不只這件失準欸總裁我今天不是來給你漏氣的你看之前你也是說2023年上半年房市會開始軟著陸亮先駕行我先看最近的一些報紙標題連中金院喔他對房市啊說2024上半年景氣的表現會看好"},{"start":5171.258,"end":5187.057,"text":"一般的民間的一些地產網啊一些媒體啊都說喔以後會開綠燈然後呢今天呢我拜讀你的報告呢你說喔就像我之前一直問你為什麼資本啊一直集中在房地產結果你今天的報告居然寫說喔是因為清安貸"},{"start":5188.294,"end":5217.88,"text":"總裁千萬不要這樣寫啦清安貸是政府一個體貼青年給他居住正義的一個政策工具結果清安貸所有的餘款夯不啷噹加起來我算了一下7929億的餘額也不過占所有目前啊這不動場的占比13.7兆當中的0.57%啊你報告當中你把推給清安貸這對這青年對政策都是一種否定啊"},{"start":5218.08,"end":5220.781,"text":"我沒有說他是推高房價的幫兇我沒有這樣說我來讓你看一下那個數字"},{"start":5246.296,"end":5252.622,"text":"不動場的販款的比例真的往上攀升下一頁目前高達37.4%下一頁"},{"start":5256.86,"end":5257.08,"text":"總裁我這邊要"},{"start":5276.4,"end":5294.796,"text":"拜託你了你是不是想想其他好的辦法讓資本不要那麼集中因為你報告過說之所以高房價的原因是因為這些不動產的貸款資本過度集中的關係所造成的結果那既然是這樣子要如何把它降低唯有你啊還有誰因為總體經濟的操盤手啊"},{"start":5298.699,"end":5326.23,"text":"對阿 怎麼怪清安代你要想辦法阿委員 不用齁就是說把那個什麼以前我們信用管制從生產方建商你也做信用管制你從消費方第二個房屋你也貸款七成第三個房屋你貸款四成你都做了如果說報委員如果說房地產這個要健全發展如果說要"},{"start":5327.25,"end":5341.866,"text":"要單獨靠中央銀行的話呢那麼不是單獨靠你我是總體經濟啦國發會呢就是不會就是說是來一個建權房屋方案建權房屋方案你看看那個參與的部會沒有"},{"start":5347.552,"end":5368.927,"text":"那個總裁不要扯到那邊去啦你作為一個總體經濟的一個操盤手來說你還沒有其他的方式嘛譬如講是不是還有其他的利率我舉一個簡單的例子過去我們貸款陳述之外的限制之外不要讓它過度集中之外利率也是一個變數有沒有可能嘛我要跟委員報告就是說利率啊基本上呢是有"},{"start":5374.171,"end":5377.536,"text":"對付通膨的我們很對付通膨的不是我不是說那個"},{"start":5380.017,"end":5406.735,"text":"不是全體的利率啦是特定的利率就交易方的利率交易方交易方也是特定對象喔交易方比如買方問題就是在這裡啦第一個利率自由化這個是利率呢銀行要跟要跟那個客戶charge這個利率呢你如果利率自由化利率不能做一個偵測工具的話那你還有其他的偵測工具嗎"},{"start":5407.515,"end":5427.628,"text":"總裁所以呢你看看在新加坡呢他在兌付房價的話他就兩個工具而已第一個工具呢就是稅第二個工具選擇性信用管制他就是這兩個對這兩個工具那你信用你如果這樣子稅不在你的手頭上你就是要信用管制的部分看還有沒有其他工具我們還會檢討還會檢討還會檢討所以說你還有武器還沒有端出來我們還會檢討還有還有布我們滾動的檢討你還有其他的布束嗎我們還會滾動的檢討還有"},{"start":5436.414,"end":5452.321,"text":"還有那最近會不會考慮推出來我們3月份我們會會討論有沒有新的部署做新的新的管制出來不然你資本集中過度集中應該不下逐漸攀升你月管制的結果還高升到37.4%我跟委員報告我們的禮監事會"},{"start":5459.424,"end":5483.057,"text":"每次都會就利率跟選擇性資本管制討論對討論很久我知道這兩個是關鍵雙率是關鍵拉回來說我在就一個數字在讓您參考最近一貼服很夯嗎幾千億跑到兩兆兩兆看起來好像很多但兩兆嚴格來說做總體的這個存款來說算什麼台幣的存款從2020開始每年增加三兆欸"},{"start":5484.258,"end":5502.12,"text":"增加到現在已經48.57兆了這兩兆算什麼根本沒什麼可是你如果讓這兩兆跑到房地產去那不是更嚴重嗎總裁你認同我的看法嗎我想是這樣子就是說那個股市跟房地產也有關聯"},{"start":5503.922,"end":5519.494,"text":"對 有些連動性啦但是正聯動負聯動也很難講因為你的股市如果是上漲的時候呢他對這個房地產他也有支撐的力道沒有總裁我最後再一件事情請你也上位研究一下"},{"start":5520.534,"end":5539.262,"text":"我認為就是因為國際的QE的狀況中美衝突台商回流資金跑回來他現在減少對外投資的意願以至於資金現在過度氾濫油資過多到底油資有多少我私底下在請教您多少啦那個規模有多少成長讓你有測試出來掌握以至於說油資再多推高了房市推高了股市"},{"start":5539.722,"end":5559.853,"text":"推高了CPI推高了物價的可能性那在這種情況的現狀底下我要請總裁去思考一下還有沒有除了升息以外的政策工具可以讓這個油資減少而讓房市股市還有包括物價不用因為油資過多台國際的QE的關係而受到影響而堆高啦"},{"start":5561.457,"end":5589.189,"text":"委員這個問題我們中央銀行還有理監事會都會去很嚴肅的去討論它嚴肅討論所以我一切等待3月份的這個中央會議和理事會的結論是不是當然啦這個是其中之一而已啦當然啦就是說理監事會就是說我們這一次很比較接近的一個重點理監事的重點那你這份的部分可以一份書面給本席嘛我好好來拜讀一下"},{"start":5590.236,"end":5590.916,"text":"接下來質詢李彥秀李委員"},{"start":5621.374,"end":5624.757,"text":"我可不可以請楊總裁請楊總裁李委員早早安總裁我想你的數學一定比我好很多委員太客氣了總裁我有一個數學小學生的數學要請教你對不對如果A小學"},{"start":5647.615,"end":5667.657,"text":"他有一百個學生一百五十個學生那他的平均身高是一百A小學的平均身高是一百五十公分B小學的平均身高是一百七十公分所以兩間小學的平均身高是一百六十公分這樣的計算方法對不對"},{"start":5669.892,"end":5681.122,"text":"A小學平均身高是150公分B小學的平均身高譬如說是170公分兩個數字加起來除以2是這兩個學校的平均身高這樣數學算法對嗎應該是喔"},{"start":5690.563,"end":5692.124,"text":"所以我就說委員的數學比我好啊"},{"start":5716.861,"end":5739.073,"text":"總裁我為什麼問你這個數學問題我昨天很認真的看了你的報告我們最近主計處也做了我們今年在2月底也剛公布了我們的經濟預測的最新的指數我也觀察到你們也很用心央行也很用心對於國內外13家"},{"start":5742.436,"end":5757.189,"text":"業者機構專門有在做經濟預測的機構也做了一個預測分析最後的結果你們就把這幾家各做的分析除以13所以我們的經濟預測變3.18跟"},{"start":5761.465,"end":5788.184,"text":"我們主計處所計算出來的3.43這個數字是完全不一樣總裁我為什麼會講因為主計處計算出來他有考量到很多不同的因素在裡面但是你們居然就把這13家這個外面的機構國內外銀行還有在做經濟預測的機構加起來除以13這個數字差很多對於整年度的經濟預測"},{"start":5790.168,"end":5812.709,"text":"就會有不同的一些結果我的意思是說我們要努力的方向政策方就會有不同的結果所以我不知道為什麼我們不用我們自己組技術所計算出來的經濟預測反而把這些機構加起來除以13我跟委員報告就是說預測剛剛就是說前面的委員也談到了這個說預測就是說時長都不準"},{"start":5816.528,"end":5825.079,"text":"那我們都要接受就是說預測都不準的啦這是第一點第二個呢預測我老師以前都是在講預測值參考值"},{"start":5827.355,"end":5853.04,"text":"那參考只是什麼意思呢?就是說預測呢?總裁對不起喔我要打斷你的話喔因為我期間不多主要其實還要問其他的問題經濟預測對於各單位對於我們接下來包括整個主計處要如何去財政部要去各單位怎麼樣去處理預算我們在產業界我們如何去做扶植都很重要所以我的意思是說差一點點差很多"},{"start":5853.96,"end":5864.57,"text":"所以到底是3.43對還是你的3.13對那但是你們計算的方法居然只是把這13家國內外的銀行業也好有在做經濟預測的學界產業界的機構加起來除以13"},{"start":5868.851,"end":5895.393,"text":"我覺得如果要用這樣子的方式的話我覺得對於未來我們經濟就是各單位政府的投入我覺得會有相當大的差異所以這個數字其實是很重要這是我要強調的地方委員講的沒有錯我非常贊同委員的說法謝謝總裁好總裁我時間我就轉一個話題因為我今天主要其實我還是要問一下最近民眾跟"},{"start":5896.914,"end":5918.779,"text":"整個中央都非常關注的有關於虛擬貨幣的問題央行最近在討論規劃CBDC在媒體上我也看到討論度非常多五月份其實我們也委託產官學界做了一些民調跟研究案那五月份會公佈但我們都非常清楚知道我們這個虛擬貨幣接下來如果真的要推的話我們會面臨幾個最大的挑戰第一個"},{"start":5924.56,"end":5940.493,"text":"民眾他到底會用不願意使用第二商家他能不能接受因為你可能有新的一些機器設備你要投入人力成本法規面更重要是民眾使用的意願這幾個大概就是我們面臨最大的挑戰"},{"start":5942.315,"end":5962.326,"text":"我關注到你們這個研究的做法因為我沒有從你的報告當中看到你們是用電話民調還是會辦公聽會包括你有沒有跟店家溝通過就是民眾的意願是什麼民眾我覺得很難是用電話調查知道聽懂數位貨幣這件事情"},{"start":5963.206,"end":5967.409,"text":"我們是我是不是請我同事來回答這個問題因為這個民調是他來執行的"},{"start":5973.551,"end":5991.029,"text":"各位報告我們就是為了民調先做這個電訪還有網路就電話的訪問還有網路的訪問還有實體的訪問他有三種都有進行那我們到查完之後那個資料後續會提到公聽會是"},{"start":5993.831,"end":6010.54,"text":"總裁我感覺就是說用民調電話因為數位貨幣這件事情對於一般的民眾你要用電話或民調去跟他講清楚我覺得就我來讀這些資料我都要重複讀好幾遍更何況是一般民眾"},{"start":6011.46,"end":6027.027,"text":"如果央行對於未來數位貨幣的推動是重大政策而且有時間點我勢在必行我不知道因為現在各國對於數位貨幣這件事情都還在討論階段要跨出這一步恐怕都有很大的挑戰沒有錯沒有錯"},{"start":6031.545,"end":6057.801,"text":"所以我不知道你這個數位貨幣只是還停留在初期還是真的要進行還是我們要跟上國際潮流這個是我覺得你們要思考的地方第二點總裁我還是要跟你接下去討論我們整個虛擬貨幣的政策因為虛擬貨幣的核心概念其實它就是要去中心化要顛覆我們央行代表國家主權發行法定貨幣的機關"},{"start":6059.582,"end":6081.619,"text":"所以到底法定貨幣跟我們現在的無論是比特幣這些虛擬貨幣到底是不是零和遊戲還是未來你希望在台灣我們跟虛擬貨幣跟法定貨幣我們是有機會共存來去推動這些政策我們有沒有平衡點我跟委員報告基本上就是說像虛擬貨幣那一種虛擬貨幣不是貨幣"},{"start":6085.503,"end":6086.424,"text":"總裁因為這些在上次你到的辦公室我們都討論非常多所以"},{"start":6103.963,"end":6128.011,"text":"我看到在111年你出席很多會議包括金融資訊會你都對於這些虛擬貨幣無論是比特幣你都認為它是風險性的資產包括它都是在投機炒作無法獲得這個大眾信任包括我們蘇副總裁都認為它是波動過大它也沒有價值它的穩定性也不足就是說我覺得整體央行對於虛擬貨幣的"},{"start":6130.932,"end":6138.576,"text":"態度似乎沒有太多的正面評價我說到這邊都因為我從你們幾次對外的談話都是如此對沒有錯我們沒有對我們對我們對特別是我們對投資者來講的話我們要警告他就是說不要以為就是說這種虛擬資產虛擬資產是一種貨幣"},{"start":6155.029,"end":6157.631,"text":"我都同意政府還是要善盡所有可能有可能的風險但是"},{"start":6176.984,"end":6199.278,"text":"總裁我也關注到金管會這幾年對於這些虛擬貨幣的態度好像也有一點轉變包括我們金管會我們納管虛擬貨幣包括你訂了十大的指導原則包括我們也對於他們相關的交易平台我們讓他們成立申請工會然後我們也納入金管會的金錢對於虛擬貨幣等等"},{"start":6202.2,"end":6221.032,"text":"這些狀況這些後續金管會的處理的模式包括成立公會等等等到底有沒有跟央行做過溝通你們兩邊的態度是不是一致我們有而且我們也尊重金管會的一個做法它是循序漸進的一個這個循序漸進的轉折是因為"},{"start":6224.714,"end":6250.313,"text":"現在很多年輕人都喜歡對於虛擬貨幣很感興趣投機鎖號所以我們要這樣做回應是不是所以你們態度才有這樣的轉折是不是這是一個趨勢這是一個趨勢我要跟委員報告這是一個趨勢所以在監管在央行對於虛擬貨幣其實沒有任何的正面評價但是因為他是一個趨勢所以我們的態度才有這樣的轉圜"},{"start":6252.094,"end":6272.581,"text":"應該也可以這麼說啦應該可以這麼說啦好那我就要提醒提醒總裁我覺得這件事情我覺得後面我們還是要做更多持續的關注因為我今天時間不夠其實我還是想針對經濟的問題因為我看到你們對於整份工作報告對於未來的CPI也好或者經濟預測也好"},{"start":6274.221,"end":6300.698,"text":"其實你也做了很多的投入包括過去這3年我們的實質經常性薪資是倒退的連續3年倒退包括我們總薪資也是倒退的狀況那你對於接下來的經濟研究包括我們產業的轉型其實你有很多的看法跟想法所以沒有關係因為後面還有專案報告我希望藉由後面的專案報告再進一步的跟總裁做更多的"},{"start":6301.198,"end":6301.218,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":6316.539,"end":6335.318,"text":"大多數的臺灣人其實是沒有錢玩股票的所以我們的經濟如何有機會產業轉型結構更好讓所有的臺灣的民眾可以享受到真正臺灣經濟的紅利就可能要我們的央行我們財政部我們各單位一起大家共同來努力好謝謝總裁委員的意見"},{"start":6341.997,"end":6356.549,"text":"下一份請賴會員賴委員那現場還有王宏威委員那等一下王委員質詢完畢我們就休息五分鐘謝謝好謝謝主席有請那個楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":6364.386,"end":6376.905,"text":"總裁早安我想今天針對我們在去年央行對於CPI的一個多次上修的一個原因來跟總裁做一個討教"},{"start":6378.787,"end":6398.256,"text":"在這個2023年其實前年的CPI年增率已經是到了這是這15年來的第二高那我們從主計總處的一個統計的一個數字裡頭我們可以看到了2023年前年度CPI的年增率已經到了2.5%那今年的二月率的CPI"},{"start":6399.389,"end":6417.441,"text":"其實年增率也來到了3.08那在這裡要請教總裁為什麼就是說在這個2023這個CPI的一個增加是這麼高呢他他可能存在的原因你們怎麼樣來看待這一個那個CPI的一個上升"},{"start":6418.975,"end":6447.285,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的CPI在2023年是2.5沒有錯2.49後來這個主計總署修改為2.49那在2022年的時候是2.95那表示說2023年是有下降下來那下降下來主要的因素主要的還是在服務類"},{"start":6448.405,"end":6471.634,"text":"外食啦肉類還有服務服務類服務類就那個剛好就是說我們我們不要再服務業是不是因為整個疫情的一個影響是是是疫情放寬了以後你看看我們到國外去的啦還有就那個整個的餐飲業啦這些都很都很多的成長率都很高所以呢他帶動了還包括你的你的那個什麼那個那個旅遊啦"},{"start":6477.256,"end":6497.83,"text":"所以住宿啦這些都是很非常熱絡的那我們從央行的新聞稿裡頭我們去看得出來就是說你們在就是整個那個CPI的一個年增率的一個臆測裡頭有你們已經有注意到就是近期的民生物價一直在上漲嘛今天提到了娛樂的一個問題那這個價格高漲"},{"start":6501.052,"end":6516.691,"text":"况且他已經是超乎我們的一個預期然後還有就是整個就是氣候變遷啦還是情流感啦這些食物類那這個食指的一個總薪資一直在下跌那定存利率趕不上通膨"},{"start":6517.572,"end":6542.034,"text":"民眾的錢變少了變薄了其實你真正的你面臨到的是一個實質的負利率那你怎麼看待這個事情呢所以呢也就是說這個就是說我們在去年的時候呢整個的特別是製造業他整個薪資下跌為什麼因為國外的需求下降嘛所以呢他的整個的製造業的那個薪資就下來"},{"start":6542.975,"end":6558.481,"text":"五月還好但是總的來講還是負的但是呢我們到今年來看的話呢我們要說我們的我們今年2024年的經濟成長會比較好會比較好為什麼會比較好呢因為就是說"},{"start":6562.603,"end":6584.854,"text":"全球的一個出口會復甦我們出口復甦了以後我們投資會增加我們去年的投資是負的今年會正的我們出口正我們的我們出口如果是正成長的話我們投資也會正成長那而且我們的consumption我們的消費這個部分還是依然有動能我想這個這個這個"},{"start":6588.435,"end":6610.404,"text":"這個整個連動我們大家都非常的理解可是問題就是說你的定存利率就是1.56那可是你的通膨這麼的嚴重那你沒有辦法如果說央行沒有辦法去感受到就是我們實際上老百姓的一個那個體溫上的一個通膨那怎麼辦呢錢確實是變薄啦"},{"start":6614.987,"end":6630.202,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說今年的通膨會下來只會下來的幅度大小而已那我們的經濟成長可是你剛又講了你說全世界其實景氣是變好的我們台灣是會比較好"},{"start":6634.526,"end":6647.137,"text":"台灣會比較好?會受全世界的影響?我們受全世界的影響稍微會因為今年我們的出口會好因為出口好主要的就是說出口是整個的貿易量會增長"},{"start":6652.581,"end":6664.537,"text":"總裁你有看到這個歐美央行其實他們都已經在升息了那已經拉到近10年的一個高點了為什麼因為就是最大的挑戰就是在物價也高因為他那個時候現在大家的這個整個物價是在高於"},{"start":6670.044,"end":6697.726,"text":"就是這個疫情前面也造成了很多的一個民怨那如果我們的通膨問題如果再加上就是在未來的電費的調整然後就是說我們的一些那個看病的那個醫療費用的一個調整那央行應該是要更積極的從民眾的角度去看待就是通膨的問題那你有沒有就是考慮到就是貨幣的一個政策做調整"},{"start":6698.526,"end":6727.626,"text":"我跟委員報告我剛剛也回答其他委員的一個質詢我們說我們這一次禮監事會的時候我們會很嚴肅的來討論這個問題嚴肅的考慮就是說其實在貨幣的一個政策你也會做這樣的一個調整嗎這個就是說要嚴肅的這個也是一個工具之一也是一個政策之一所以我要請教你今年的通膨率你的目標設定在哪裡"},{"start":6728.566,"end":6754.352,"text":"我們的通膨目標如果說以目前我們1.89我們去年底的時候我們是用1.89但是就是說今年4月份會調漲這個電價那我們會把這個電價的這個作用它的一個影響我們會考慮進去所以這樣的話恐怕我們必須要上修我們的通膨率"},{"start":6755.272,"end":6783.453,"text":"對你會上修通膨率因為實際上就是說因為實質的負利率已經越來越嚴重了你也看到了這一個問題所以你一定就是說你要透過你的貨幣政策還是種種的一個甚至就是說從銀行裡頭去收錢回來的這一些政策去調整這個市場你必須要機動性的調整是不是這樣子呢委員講的很有道理有道理"},{"start":6785.764,"end":6804.755,"text":"那你的信用管制有用嗎?信用管制當然有用啊有用可是你的房價還是一直在漲啊但是委員我信用管制他所針對的不是房價不是房價不是我們專業銀行法裡面我們的經營目標裡面沒有房價的這個問題"},{"start":6807.777,"end":6818.246,"text":"我們呢我們你看看我們是金融穩定在這個全世界就是說你們的通膨裡頭你們一直沒有把房價納進來嗎這個都是一個大家最大的一個困境嗎房租有可是房價沒有啊房價沒有因為全球央行的利率政策呢他沒有是要針對房價的"},{"start":6830.176,"end":6852.347,"text":"總裁在這裡我也是要跟你提醒就是說全台灣80%的人其實都是有第一棟房子的可是你還是受限在20%這些手袋還是這些年輕人他們是沒有房子的那如果我們一直用這樣的一個保守的一個政策我們來看這個通膨"},{"start":6853.308,"end":6864.248,"text":"那我們一直用這樣子保守的一個政策來看整體的總體經濟那我們會造成很大很大的一個民厭你怎麼看待這個問題呢"},{"start":6866.452,"end":6883.529,"text":" 我想是這樣啦。你手上的工具最多啦。 我也不一定啦。所以這個才會就是說政府才會推出健全房屋方案那這個健全房屋方案裡面是好幾個部會"},{"start":6884.85,"end":6899.459,"text":"在在裡面中央銀行只是其中之一那中央銀行的職責呢我們就是避免你的你的房地產泡沫化而導致影響到你的這個金融的穩定這是中央銀行的一個職權職責"},{"start":6902.088,"end":6918.655,"text":"是我想這個在下一頁我們非常清楚的看到總裁你在講的就是說這個每一個人不管是財政部啦就是還是我們的央行其實對總體的一個經濟都有很大的一個這個主控力和影響力"},{"start":6919.935,"end":6930.851,"text":"可是房價沒有如一起的回穩反而是一直在上漲剛才在上一頁的一個資料裡頭我們就看到了新宜房屋他特別講到了Q3 Q4即使房價還是會持續的上漲那甚至就是說"},{"start":6936.218,"end":6963.25,"text":"你這個是2023年就是去年的你在6月宣布管制以後房子還是跟著漲所以顯然就是說光是央行的一個努力還是不夠就是說要整個聯動的一個進來那如果你收回流動性的一個譬如說我可以從這個銀行裡頭去做那個總量的一個管制我把貨幣做總量的一個管制"},{"start":6965.091,"end":6974.203,"text":"你會不會覺得說這樣子會有一個積極的這個……我想銀行的流動性基本上都被我們說了"},{"start":6976.445,"end":6977.966,"text":"多餘的流動性都被我們收了"},{"start":6997.065,"end":6997.746,"text":"王宏威委員"},{"start":7035.581,"end":7039.324,"text":"謝謝主席我請楊總裁請楊總裁總裁好總裁在你們的報告裡面特別對通膨率說預估今年的台灣通膨率渴望續回降到2%左右"},{"start":7061.922,"end":7084.416,"text":"總裁這個比例是不是估計的過於保守我們的這個左右這個就是說我們還是沒有把這個電價把它放進去沒有把電價放上去對不對好那麼事實上國發會那個拱竹尾已經對外宣稱我想這個是他們的模型跑出來的說如果電價上漲10%的話"},{"start":7087.978,"end":7106.834,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7107.174,"end":7122.042,"text":"條百分之十因為現在傳出來是百分之十到百分之十五嘛大家看他能夠獲得多少的這個撥補那如果是10%到15%那我們所跑出來的模型CPI的受到的影響大概是幾個百分點"},{"start":7124.85,"end":7137.979,"text":"我們基本上就是說模型大概是大家都差不多我們的模型所以您同意我們有兩個第一個是直接影響一個是間接影響"},{"start":7139,"end":7157.468,"text":"那直接影響了我們的估計呢大概也會就是說落在0.12直接就是直接對直接是0.12但是報告委員就是說如果4月開始調漲的時候呢你的0.12也不見得就是說全部是在今年實現"},{"start":7158.969,"end":7174.922,"text":"對可能會延續到後面因為你就只有今年就只有8個月而已嘛是那後年就是4個月嘛所以呢也就0.12不見得是全部是在這個那如果間接的話我們大概是差不多也是在這0.24左右0.24對0.24那也一樣的就是說0.24那你這個就是說也是要8個月還有後面但是但是"},{"start":7188.939,"end":7198.704,"text":"這個只是說是你模型跑出來的一個數據但是他中間你還要考慮到就是說他的一個預期的心理"},{"start":7199.966,"end":7222.063,"text":"對,因為現在確實有一些預期心理會...如果預期心理出來甚至有烘台物價出來那麼對影響的層面會更大所以我們就必須要我們也必須要考慮這些所以總裁你所以你應該也會同意喔電價因為這次上漲的幅度比過去幾年都大而且甚至這次要漲到民生用電"},{"start":7223.004,"end":7236.987,"text":"那所以在今年有關於通貨膨脹的壓力事實上這個壓力是很大的你應該同意吧我除了就是說好委員我剛剛也有提到這一點就是說"},{"start":7238.479,"end":7263.375,"text":"今年雖然就是說比去年的二點四九可能我們說上修但是呢我們還是認為他是還是下來的但是呢可能下你你你你這樣用下降的其實並不代表說說我們現在呢大家的物價下降其實是去年的基期比較高嗎對不對對沒有錯這個基期也有一部分那但是呢我要跟委員報告的就是說因為我們的"},{"start":7266.297,"end":7293.315,"text":"2020年1.97過來是2.95那過來是2.49那今年又超過2%那這個我們必要小心這個會就是說如果說你的通膨都就是那麼長的時間的時候呢中央銀行對這個通膨預期的心理我們要非常注意因為等於說長時間都是在甚至在我們的通貨膨脹線2%"},{"start":7295.516,"end":7311.697,"text":"上上下下一直維持這個水準所以中央銀行應該會非常非常的在意因為穩定物價就是央行的天條所以總裁所以我們大概上半年看不到降息的可能"},{"start":7313.355,"end":7342.122,"text":"因為電價的因素不確定會不會引起預期心理會不會引起烘台物價所以在今年雖然在美國一直在期待Fed可能降息但是現在它可能降息的時間也會拖往後延所以在今年上半年總裁你認為我們有沒有降息的空間沒有我在想我們在6月以前沒有降息的空間那下半年呢"},{"start":7342.742,"end":7353.62,"text":"下半年呢所以就是說第一個我們要注意就是說叫通膨一起的心理我們必須要注意那下半年呢基本上呢因為我跟委員報告"},{"start":7355.922,"end":7379.889,"text":"美國他們是通膨率8%9%然後慢慢下來的那我們的基本上呢我們的通膨是稍微這樣然後再下來對不對吼我們的情況是跟他不一樣所以我們的貨幣政策跟他完全是不一樣的我們呢是慢慢的上去的所以慢慢上去的話呢也可能就是說不會就像他們就是說上去了以後下來的速度比較快"},{"start":7380.569,"end":7408.073,"text":"那中央銀行的把我們是逐步的我們是逐步的所以呢總裁我可不可以這樣講因為今年在國際情勢來說的話美國有降息的可能今年也可能看得到降息對不對那但是呢今年上半年臺灣面臨到電價上漲的壓力所以上半年央行現在沒有降息的打算但是按照國際情勢我們也沒有升息的可能"},{"start":7408.573,"end":7409.093,"text":"總裁另外跟您請教這幾天其實媒體有報導你們的那個"},{"start":7432.396,"end":7456.448,"text":"這個報告裡面有特別提到就是中央銀行現在呢在進行數位貨幣的一個研究CBDC對我所了解你們現在是委託台金院嗎是沒有包含對一些銀行的詢問嗎對銀行的一個調查對銀行應該是比較持負面跟反對的意見吧"},{"start":7457.529,"end":7487.109,"text":"是不是因為看起來因為如果發行這個數位貨幣可能銀行會怕自己的這個這個金融仲介的地位因此而被邊緣化是不是所以我現在所了解的是事實上因為你這邊講說你去對公眾啊產業界啊學界我跟你講公眾不懂的啦我都要花一點時間我叫人家幫我弄了一個報告出來我才比較了解數位貨幣你們的架構是什麼"},{"start":7487.449,"end":7489.631,"text":"我對虛擬貨幣一直變成詐騙洗錢我是很有意見但是它不是虛擬貨幣所以"},{"start":7507.591,"end":7525.186,"text":"我們現在在研究數位貨幣的一個發展您覺得有可能跟有些國家準備在2030年之前開始來上路發行數位貨幣我們的時間有可能可以趕得上2030年嗎"},{"start":7527.477,"end":7555.811,"text":"這個timetable我不敢跟委員保證了因為這個我們第一個階段譬如說我們這個我們在訪問我們還要在公聽會我們還要在論壇這些首發的時間可能也會蠻長的而且你看看像美國我剛剛也提到美國這個Fed的主席Power他最近也談到了美國要發展這個CPTC他要非常小心"},{"start":7556.411,"end":7583.692,"text":"而且呢他很重視的就是說他的隱私權就人民因為你用CBDC的時候呢那這個呢你的你使用貨幣的這個隱私權呢可能中央銀行都會知道銀行也可能會都會知道那這個呢他一直覺得就是說除非除非就是說上面所以如果發行CBDC的話"},{"start":7584.312,"end":7599.379,"text":"任何一個個人也好當然是大戶啦大戶或者是企業界他在使用數位貨幣跟銀行之間的話中央銀行都可以完全掌握所以這個就是說你的設計也就是說我們是朝這個方向設計嗎對不是不會"},{"start":7602.18,"end":7621.832,"text":"我所以這個設計就必須要知道就是說在某一個範圍之內的話大概就不曉得但是在某一個範圍的時候可能你這些資訊都要揭露都要讓上面知道還是要揭露還是不是所謂的揭露就是說要讓中央銀行知道"},{"start":7623.022,"end":7637.167,"text":"所以我覺得這個當你們對銀行界並沒有那麼贊成如果這樣講起來呢我覺得企業界或者是那種金融大戶我看他們也不會那麼贊成博鱷報告委員博鱷報告委員我跟您報告"},{"start":7642.489,"end":7671.822,"text":"E-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerceE-commerce"},{"start":7676.407,"end":7689.38,"text":"現場有吳麗華委員那因為趕時間我們是徵詢她讓她先質詢好不好然後等吳委員質詢完我們再休息5分鐘好謝謝請吳委員謝謝主席而有請央行總裁請央總裁"},{"start":7706.641,"end":7729.833,"text":"總裁早您看一下這個圖我們全台有三個鄉鎮是完全沒有任何的金融機構包括油局的農會的這個機構都沒有他是花蓮的萬榮台東的金峰以及屏東的獅子鄉那這三個鄉剛好都是原住民鄉鎮"},{"start":7731.334,"end":7757.182,"text":"那如果說我們要來看到底要走多遠才能夠找到ATM提款機貫均是花蓮的濁西鄉平均方圓510平方公里也就是說要拔山涉水才能夠去提領錢那特別這個問題凸顯就是政府在發錢的時候很多人就很頭痛為了領那個3000塊6000塊"},{"start":7760.323,"end":7786.572,"text":"可能還要去叫車叫個計程車一千多塊就為了領那幾千塊所以金融普及確實很重要那為什麼我這樣子問因為我在夜報上有看到中央銀行這邊正在推動發行一個所謂的數位貨幣CBDC報告裡面有指出已經完成批發型跟零售型的研究"},{"start":7787.392,"end":7809.474,"text":"而且央行呢已經去展示過這個數位貨幣有找到試驗場景試點那目前也正在辦理意見的調查想要請教一下總裁這個數位貨幣CPTC他的使用模式如果說拿金融卡信用卡悠遊卡電子支付他比較類似哪一種"},{"start":7811.519,"end":7824.323,"text":"我跟委員報告齁他是比較他跟他跟電子支付是比較像還有就是行動錢包你手機的那個行動錢包"},{"start":7826.084,"end":7826.545,"text":"對我們偏鄉預期會有幫助嗎?幫助是什麼?"},{"start":7844.22,"end":7862.731,"text":"我想就是說政府的這個依化包括電子支付依化的最主要的目的就是金融的就是financial inclusion金融的普及化"},{"start":7863.772,"end":7875.019,"text":"金融的普及化金融的普及化如果說電子資料都能夠到偏鄉去的話那他的金融的普及化呢就會更高那如果沒電沒網路呢沒電沒網路當然現在呢所以速發部現在是管NCC嗎"},{"start":7886.805,"end":7888.666,"text":"所以那些政府也要配套嗎?對"},{"start":7902.472,"end":7924.963,"text":"離縣支付離縣支付所以總裁我現在就是說因為你們正在做意見調查嗎所以我想知道說你們還會不會去找那些像偏鄉的地方去做測試試點那你評估的時候意見蒐集的時候你可不可以將協助偏鄉金融作為你們的重點評估項目之一會嗎"},{"start":7927.315,"end":7940.835,"text":"我想委員就是說因為我們從這個時點要到這個時點恐怕還有一段時間的一個路程但是呢委員有提出了這樣的一個建議"},{"start":7941.716,"end":7948.301,"text":"我希望在你們的意見收集裡面要把這個評估進來那未來評估告告也讓我們了解一下好不好所以我接下來想要請教一下總裁"},{"start":7963.893,"end":7982.566,"text":"過去呢像2020年總統就職你們有發行那個就職紀念幣嘛那我不太曉得說今年會發行嗎預計要發行多少這個我委員我請我們的發行局這個是他在組長的我請他來回答好嗎好謝謝謝謝委員那今年的總統副總統就職紀念幣"},{"start":7992.123,"end":8018.624,"text":"總統當選人已經同意實體的紀念幣的實施發行所以會跟這個一樣是實體紀念幣那預計發行量我們會採網路預購來決定他的發行數量那相片挑好了嗎現在都已經挑好了因為是金柱用金子鑄造大家是有反應說長得不像"},{"start":8021.191,"end":8038.164,"text":"對,你看那個左邊那個可能會有一個最近新聞人物很像那個男的也不像因為我知道金柱他其實可能有他技術的問題啦不容易去很像但是我們還是希望很像因為收藏的人希望很像"},{"start":8039.305,"end":8066.707,"text":"這樣可以嗎?那為什麼我這樣子問呢?因為像這個NFT他們有發行這個數位幣嘛那因為是數位就很像嘛那金鑄造就可能就容易失真嘛但是我只是做這樣的提醒那除了實體版有沒有可能來發行數位版的紀念幣因為剛才總裁在回應別的委員的時候都說也承認啦數位是一個趨勢嘛"},{"start":8070.858,"end":8074.68,"text":"一句裝洋法15條還有第18條還有我們的金銀幣紀念的這個發行辦法現在我們的國幣還有紀念性的卷跟幣並沒有"},{"start":8085.916,"end":8107.975,"text":"所以沒有打算發行數位的沒有 這個法源上面是還有問題既然是趨勢不要講法源就修嘛因為是趨勢為什麼我這樣講因為很多人關心就是能不能夠去結合一些線上遊戲像生存遊戲可以在AR VR呈現虛擬實境等等"},{"start":8110.297,"end":8130.542,"text":"因為他們覺得其實這個會是一個不錯的一個新的玩意那我想你們可以去考慮看看好不好這是很多人的期待啦那接下來我就是也想了解因為過去在1998到2011年中央銀行都有發售14組的原住民套幣"},{"start":8131.542,"end":8144.631,"text":"但是後來就沒有而且在這些年當中14組已經變16組甚至未來可能還會有一些平埔族群像希拉雅族所以我是想說能不能夠透過數位再版"},{"start":8146.341,"end":8172.239,"text":"無委員的這個建議我覺得非常好因為這個可以結合很多現在的可以來玩我們第一個我們實體版的我們可以一定也可以發行那至於就是說剛剛你建議的那個數位版之後那我就說數位版當然也不是說因為法沒有那我們呢也假如說這個是一個趨勢那也許以後"},{"start":8172.919,"end":8188.788,"text":"國外啊國際啊他對原住民很有興趣啊這些呢恐怕就是說都是要以後來來來設計要盡早修啦因為一直講法源就不對了因為是趨勢就要主動積極來修好謝謝總裁"},{"start":8193.19,"end":8218.707,"text":"我其實會關心這個也是因為說偏鄉的一個未來的發展趨勢2019年央行有一個新聞稿寫到說就是在規劃建置電子支付跨機構共用平台以利支付業者能陸續加入那我現在是知道全支付在3月11號有加入那接口支付預計在7月加入可是大家最關心"},{"start":8219.688,"end":8240.054,"text":"就是使用人口最多的這個LiPay不曉得什麼時候會加入我是不是委員我請我們財經公司的董事長來回答你的問題委員好跟委員報告LiPay在現在的市場上它是第三方支付現在的電子支付Quantico平台"},{"start":8240.854,"end":8260.643,"text":"我們今晚會合總我們的服務的範圍是金融機構跟電子機構是所以這兩個電子機構跟第三方機構的法源不一樣是是是又是法源那我是這樣子想了因為我也知道有看過你們說是第三方支付的關係可是我的看法是這樣"},{"start":8261.303,"end":8289.787,"text":"因為在技術層面上第三方支付的金流他還是要依賴電子支付跟銀行處理那我是覺得技術上你們研究一下應該是可行那另外一方面他的事法性法源法源那支付清算平台他也是依電子支付條例來執行可是跟他前端的QR Code他其實沒有法去規範所以我覺得這是兩碼子事那應該要去朝向簡便民流通還是要去客服可以嗎"},{"start":8290.367,"end":8305.228,"text":"是的好謝謝那除了簡便民方便流通我覺得央行也有促進金融穩定的任務我是在夜報上看到你們說本行選擇信用管制措施實施以來不動產貸款成長率下降確實從2020年起"},{"start":8307.751,"end":8308.011,"text":"央行"},{"start":8330.964,"end":8357.947,"text":"我就直接講因為時間的關係對啦我就說對對因為去年的第三季的房價增長是趨緩的可是你看第四季喔這個表格你可以看到爆衝欸爆衝例如像新竹他光是三個月內房子就漲15%那你應該很清楚知道我要問什麼因為財政部在2020年他的房地和一稅齁就是期限這個五年他把他給給放寬了"},{"start":8359.668,"end":8382.121,"text":"那另外2023年去年財政部8月又推出一個親安貸的2.0也把這個所謂的一個兩年到五年的他也把它放寬所以很多的廠商他就找到一個促銷的門道策略那我是希望說央行因為你有對總體金融穩定的一個責任嘛那是不是可以去做一個評估報告好謝謝總裁謝謝主席"},{"start":8389.255,"end":8389.661,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8814.983,"end":8815.103,"text":"請楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":8840.633,"end":8856.524,"text":"總裁好我想大家都非常關心台灣的物價那你們在去年年底是預計大概是1.89那也下修但是2月份我們剛剛公布的主計處公布的物價還是高達3.08"},{"start":8858.626,"end":8872.807,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8873.61,"end":8888.583,"text":"所以看起來應該會比你們原來的預期再高可能會高因為接下去4月份電價要調漲而且也看到很多的醫療費用關號費的調漲這些狀況對於超過所謂的通膨脊結腺2%可能是一個很幾乎是應該會超過吧你認為會不會超過2%"},{"start":8897.351,"end":8909.604,"text":"如果說照直覺在看的話來那個的話應該會喔應該會所以總裁你曾經表示過如果明年的通膨率在2%以下還可以接受但是如果就像剛剛講的超過2%"},{"start":8912.093,"end":8934.296,"text":"那接下去央行會有什麼樣的貨幣政策所以我剛剛也在講就是說我們會很嚴肅的來討論這個議題看起來是不太可能低於2%了所以現在電價調漲接下去要收碳費加上醫療費用的增加連主計長都說通膨壓力很大所以"},{"start":8935.256,"end":8957.911,"text":"接下來的禮堅式會議有沒有可能在討論臺灣的寬鬆貨幣政策升息的可能性我跟委員報告就是說貨幣政策一般AA有在講就是說因為他是下來的嘛下來他是中長期啦中長期要達到2%以下所以你要用利率來做調控嘛"},{"start":8958.611,"end":8985.529,"text":"中央銀行現在我剛剛也有在強調就是說中央銀行很重視的就是說是通膨預期的心理沒錯所以這也是我們很擔心說實際上民眾的感受其實就才是最真實的所以重點在於我想問總裁就是怎麼樣的物價條件會有怎麼樣的貨幣政策這才是一個原則性的問題我們大家可以去預期接下去的物價狀況我們會碰到什麼樣的未來"},{"start":8988.892,"end":8997.521,"text":"你的政策可能的方向?我還是在講就是說我們會很謹慎的我們還是很謹慎的會討論這個議題在你們去年第4屆的李建樹會議的裡面我們看到了"},{"start":9007.827,"end":9036.122,"text":"央行附了國內外的對於臺灣CPI的預測非常有趣喔對於今年的CPI國內機構認為不會高於百分之二國外機構都認為會高於百分之二我想問一下總裁是國內機構跟國外機構誰比較不接地氣還是我們國內機構都是報喜不報憂也不是這麼啦因為國外的很明顯的差很大國內跟國外差很多有的是啦"},{"start":9036.943,"end":9051.6,"text":"幾乎國外全部都超過百分之二可是我們自己可以報說我們只有一點多不過報委員就是說應該按照道理來講的話就是說國內的機構是比較瞭解國內的情況"},{"start":9052.481,"end":9068.2,"text":"但是如果照你這樣說的話就不會發生我們剛剛講的明年剛剛講可能接下去會超過百分之二所以國外可能比你還要準所以呢也就是說你要看的就是說每一個機構呢在什麼時點做的預測"},{"start":9070.623,"end":9080.233,"text":"而且你看就舉中央銀行的例子來講我們在去年的12月底的禮監事我們做了預測但是在3月的時候我們還是會我沒有什麼意見我只是認為說可能我們太過於保守這件事情也需要去參考國外的機構的考慮這個很難說啦接下來就是"},{"start":9092.546,"end":9120.408,"text":"我們特別注意的就是我特別在乎的是居住正義所以房租的指數租金指數在臺灣居住類的CPI裡面已經連續上漲了31個月超過兩年半而且已經創了歷史記錄也就是說我們居住正義的實踐第一個在央行的立場也應該是讓房市還漲作為第一個目標但是我想問總裁如果按照這個租金指數的上升狀況"},{"start":9121.949,"end":9130.45,"text":"但沒有還漲而且持續上漲幅度越來越大我們的居住正義的政策有沒有發揮效果"},{"start":9132.064,"end":9139.89,"text":"租金是房價的落後支票租金是房價的落後支票我們現在的政策工具有沒有辦法讓租金緩漲"},{"start":9155.615,"end":9176.951,"text":"至少不要長得那麼大而且你有很多的工具你一直都在用但是看起來效果沒有很好尤其是你說過不要因為打房而升息但是CPI的壓力變大了接下去信用管制也做了很久了可是房市一樣沒有趨緩的現象"},{"start":9178.772,"end":9205.884,"text":"我跟委員報告中央銀行的目標沒有房價的這個目標如果說房價上漲但是呢他的金融穩定依然是穩定的時候呢中央銀行還是謹慎的我同意但是我的意思是說央行可能要成為一個對於我們現在你做了很多管制措施但是我們又通過了平均集權條例希望能夠平易房價對"},{"start":9207.125,"end":9213.084,"text":"然後後來政府為了要選舉又貼出了新清安貸款增加額度延長年限"},{"start":9214.875,"end":9239.898,"text":"有媒體報導這就是後來本來平均地權條例的效果還沒出來打房的效果還沒出來反手又提出了新清安貸款反而撐住了房價撐住了樓地板所以同時間提出效果相反的房市政策對於您不斷的在做管制措施但是我們政府推出的矛盾的政策總裁你有什麼看法"},{"start":9241.258,"end":9262.425,"text":"基本上我也是一直希望就是說你也是覺得很無奈就是你想管他然後他們又在那邊撐著我也是一直希望就是說健全房屋方案這個是整個的行政單位健全房屋不會只有一個單位要大家一起來但是不能你再打房他在那邊撐房價"},{"start":9264.106,"end":9282.319,"text":"我說我基本上我也非常同意就是說政策是要一致性政策不能互相矛盾政策不能自己打自己對啦當然啦但是呢有時候我說總裁你要大聲的說出來政策不能自己打自己我這邊在打你不能左手打右手啊"},{"start":9282.859,"end":9285.801,"text":"我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":9307.091,"end":9332.98,"text":"非常非常不知道要投資什麼所以最近可以看到我們的儲蓄本來是3兆左右目前到2024的預測值已經達到3.84兆也就是說民眾手上很多錢很多現金不知道要買什麼所以最近很夯的就是高股息的ETF還有美債的ETF可以賣到上千億然後現在的問題就是有這種說法當然低利率政策超過成長區間的M2"},{"start":9334.821,"end":9353.49,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9353.63,"end":9376.443,"text":"民眾有錢想投資買不到高額利率的就去衝風險然後讓這些所謂的投資詐騙的集團開始用投資詐騙的方式來欺騙民眾這兩件事情總裁我們有什麼樣的解方或者是我們有什麼方式來引導央行我相信也是金融教育推動小組的一員金融素養還有對於國人的"},{"start":9379.084,"end":9394.893,"text":"財經的觀念這些事情也有一個主導的作用總裁可以做些什麼事情讓民眾更瞭解投資更能夠把他的錢用在最有用的地方而不至於被詐騙或去買了很多他可能不需要的東西"},{"start":9396.033,"end":9423.94,"text":"我想就是說投資人每一個投資人每一個投資人他有他的投資的一個策略那你覺得這個ETF的狀況正常嗎所以這個才會就是說金管會他目前他也覺得就是說有一點過熱所以他也要嘗試的要讓這種熱度能夠降下來因為就是我們的錢不知道要去哪裡所以我們的股票兩萬點然後房子漲不停"},{"start":9424.66,"end":9443.886,"text":"同樣的會去買這些東西就表示大家錢沒有做投資都是做這種不會去投資公司投資工廠而是投資到這些商品上面所以總裁我是說如果我們有低利我們應該要有相對的配套提供更好的投資標的給人民有做選擇好嗎好謝謝委員"},{"start":9452.154,"end":9453.475,"text":"這麼多年來我們中央銀行"},{"start":9478.868,"end":9502.702,"text":"不管在你或者前任總裁領導下其實坦白講對於我們整個國家金融的穩定對於匯率利率這一些的掌控其實社會給你們的評價都很高謝謝委員可是我今天提到的是兩個我覺得也是當務之急我希望兩個問題那麼請你回答後就是說"},{"start":9505.606,"end":9530.504,"text":"先前為了抑制房市的過度飆漲我們央行已經採取選擇性信用軟體已經採取了五波這五波下去以後我們看到房市不但繼續熱絡而且價格直直上揚那等於全國不僅"},{"start":9531.545,"end":9556.493,"text":"但黃區那全國22縣市都一起上漲所以我要問你的就是說那前5波選擇性信用管制成效不大之下是不是我們應該再祭出第6波的針對房市這個選擇性的信用管制你有沒有這個打算"},{"start":9558.114,"end":9585.547,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說第一個我們的選擇性信用管制我們每次的理監事會都會討論滾動式的檢討這是第一點第二點呢也就是說我們的健全房屋方案裡面就是說我們的選擇性信用管制的主要的目的也不是在於就是說要抑制房價因為我們的台灣的房價說實在的它也有它上漲也有它的道理第一個就是說"},{"start":9587.011,"end":9607.517,"text":"中美貿易衝突了以後呢台商回來投資這些我們都知道不只我們立法院知道全民也都知道啦你不能說全民的期待下你現在突然說沒有啦我先前選擇性信用管制不是要打房價"},{"start":9608.797,"end":9636.138,"text":"我是直接挑明跟你說其實就是打房價我認為這是對的這是全民的期待合理的管制房價他們房價不合理的飆升不是嗎那當然現在呢就好我就直接回答委員的我們對選擇新型管制的措施呢我們一直都是會滾動式的煎刀可以必要的時候呢我們也不是說我們就到這裡為止而已"},{"start":9636.989,"end":9661.67,"text":"所以我請問你嘛那短期內你有沒有打算第6波的選擇性信用管制我這個就是說理監事會會討論理監事會討論那什麼時候理監事會我們3月份的時候是理監事的討論那就是這個月囉好我靜待你們討論的結果但是你既然採用選擇性信用管制我覺得我們國內這38家銀行"},{"start":9665.953,"end":9684.137,"text":"視乎有聽沒聽沒當一回事所以啊這個成效不章那你們照說央行訂了這個政策我們全體銀行應該要跟進的那調皮搗蛋不跟進的那就要處罰他不是嗎結果這麼多年來從108年109到111年總共處罰三件"},{"start":9691.558,"end":9718.634,"text":"這三家當初比較調皮搗蛋台積銀和庫國泰市華好了也是一樣四個字高舉輕放可以喔最高罰款可以罰到兩千萬的結果你們都把他罰一個最低罰一百萬那難怪調皮搗蛋不配合不聽中央銀行指示的都"},{"start":9719.682,"end":9729.987,"text":"只被罰一百萬了那其他更多沒查到沒配合大家都敢這麼做嘛了不起他就準備了繳交一百萬的"},{"start":9732.148,"end":9758.641,"text":"這個入場券再來就隨他們做啦不是嗎所以我認為銀行指示的選擇性信用管制對38家銀行那些裡面那些除了模範生以外對多數這些調皮搗蛋的銀行而言我認為8個字形容他們啦他們就是自由發揮我行我素"},{"start":9760.66,"end":9769.755,"text":"好,他們做他們的就對了阿中央銀行那中央銀行的你說你的就對了所以我覺得這是非常可惡的事情也就是說"},{"start":9771.158,"end":9799.736,"text":"我認為好好檢討前五波哪幾家沒配合的還是要叉叉還是要抓出來罰不能只罰一百萬啊一百萬懶散了又懶散了連最高的罰兩千萬他就沒得聽再說更何況說你只罰一百萬好不好這個理事會以後三月的這個理事會以後我希望有結論你看有沒有三月底四月初馬上向我們財委會做一個"},{"start":9801.097,"end":9822.767,"text":"說明好不好我我我我我們會有一個檢討報告給委員好不好可以我們一個檢討報告給委員另外另外第二個問題就是說針對其實我們中央銀行法第29條不止是對房屋的部分其實我們對於這個耐久消費品"},{"start":9824.468,"end":9844.375,"text":"這個部分那麼我們事實上這一部分的貸款我們也可以管那我講這一部分是什麼呢就是說關於這個現在對年輕人造成一些悲歌的啦就是VNPL所謂齁啊這個先買後付就是"},{"start":9845.925,"end":9848.088,"text":"銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀行銀"},{"start":9869.055,"end":9896.211,"text":"這個中租敵核他借了2346億核亂972億那家裕榮汽車成立的裕榮阿他不公開他不公開那我們也問阿我們請金管會說你要查你要問金管會竟然自廢武功不但不管他們連金額要他報"},{"start":9897.577,"end":9920.622,"text":"那也不報結果愈容繼續再做那你想想喔那個楊總裁你看這樣對嗎銀行你如果要借消費性貸款那你有你就直接你就借給消費者嗎我們信賴銀行的體系他有一個徵信體制而且銀行知道說這些"},{"start":9923.996,"end":9949.573,"text":"存款去放款這些存款來自2300萬我們的納稅人他們的存款那些存款應該絕大多數用在生產事業幫助民眾買土地蓋廠房買機械設備買原料做桌展機生產性的嘛或者商業性的結果消費性的貸款應該受到限縮"},{"start":9950.814,"end":9969.549,"text":"但是突然跑出這幾家租賃公司好啦他大筆的跟我們的銀行體系借借低利的然後他用高利貸的方式借給消費者尤其是年輕朋友們出入社會者那"},{"start":9971.069,"end":9984.316,"text":"我覺得這不只是錯誤這是非常的不道德非常的不道德然後他們向銀行借錢當這些租賃公司我不客氣的講這叫做有牌的地下錢莊不是嗎有牌的地下錢莊就因為他掛個牌我租賃公司"},{"start":9997.386,"end":10012.27,"text":"然後他就可以把社會大眾的資金從銀行那邊大筆的轉過來去幹地下錢莊的事情你知道他維維金多少嗎你知道他利息多高嗎你知道他們討帳怎麼討的嗎表面上叫兩個穿西裝的過來後面跟著兩個嚼檳榔的討債公司"},{"start":10022.349,"end":10044.139,"text":"那青年朋友們出入社會的你看給他們這麼大的誘惑買個80萬的車出定公司借你100萬你車子不但不用出錢還有20萬可以當零用金那年輕朋友們有的沒有考慮那麼多的結果父母親作罷"},{"start":10045.359,"end":10070.009,"text":"租賃公司也不怕討不到啦然後年輕朋友還有三十幾年工作餘命啊他覺得這個都一定討得到的就對就用這種方式變相的吸血這是殘害我們社會尤其是殘害我們國家未來的希望青年人我覺得殘害他們的一個"},{"start":10071.912,"end":10100.104,"text":"非常可惡的一個方式手段所以我認為那個軍管會我另外會找他軍管會我另外會找他算這筆賬軍管會不但自廢武功而且動不動拿那個什麼個資法啦我們大家個資被賣的差不多啦然後他才說這個個資法我們立委要查他說個資法不能給你總統什麼都不能給你這個我另外找他算賬"},{"start":10101.867,"end":10120.067,"text":"當事央行你根據銀行法你事實上你就可以針對這個部分銀行法第29條很清楚不只是對辦理構建房屋你另外構置耐久消費品的貸款你們也可以去管"},{"start":10121.715,"end":10122.235,"text":"總裁金龍率所屬單位主管"},{"start":10139.936,"end":10151.435,"text":"我對你跟中央銀行寄予厚望既然法令有啦你有中央銀行法第29條你可以處置啊這件事情"},{"start":10152.435,"end":10172.443,"text":"你針對這些調皮搗蛋的銀行把大量的錢借給這三家租賃公司讓他們去剝削去吸血青年朋友們這個就是錯誤那樣子的行為這三家租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊"},{"start":10174.685,"end":10184.302,"text":"這些貸款給他的銀行當了最大的幫兇這些貸款給他的銀行對不起我們全體的存款人是不是這樣"},{"start":10186.655,"end":10206.028,"text":"委員的意見我們會來檢討我希望這個會議下一次會議我們碰面的時候你可以針對這一個部分你有下去管制他們這些銀行警告他們這些銀行這些你做出一些有處理的這個情況跟我們做一些說明好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10214.887,"end":10224.931,"text":"王偉那個金管會他有講說那個剛剛講那個不歸他們管金管會金管會有說啦推需要的話我再來安排"},{"start":10243.43,"end":10247.235,"text":"接著請李坤澄議員質詢謝謝主席那請我們楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":10265.023,"end":10277.94,"text":"總裁好總裁這個早上也辛苦了這個我先請教一下我看到你早上的質詢這個大家問的問題也都很多元那這個我們都知道說總裁講話這個"},{"start":10280.222,"end":10305.679,"text":"通常具有一錘定音的效果謝謝委員因為早上我有看到有其他委員在關心最近很夯的ETF然後總裁用了一個非常生動的比喻這個就會像羊群一樣跳下去然後說怎麼上來就會怎麼樣下去那我相信總裁的這一番談話可能會對ETF具有降溫的效果我是希望啦"},{"start":10309.853,"end":10336.158,"text":"我是希望是這樣不過我跟委員報告就是說金管會也了解也關注到這個議題所以他們也是希望就採一些的降溫的措施所以總裁認為說這個最近這幾檔很夯的這個ETF這個太熱了對於這個台灣的這個這個比如說經濟發展不好勒還是說對哪裡不好勒那所以你希望它具有這個降溫的這個效果"},{"start":10337.782,"end":10352.551,"text":"最主要的這個我們應該就是說啦是應該是說是投資人一窩蜂的我看媒體也就是在表達在描述說因為很多對ETF他也都不懂的啊但是因為看到大家都是一直在去買的"},{"start":10353.231,"end":10376.336,"text":"我就打電話打到那個什麼那個那個金融機構呢就接的接的就說完所以很顯然的這是一窩蜂的很多都是一窩蜂就像前面頭一樣跳下去的後面不知道就跟著跳下去的意思嗎那就是說他也不曉得ETF是不是他只是說現在呢我就一直在賬賬賬那現在都大家人的心裡就是說那追賬"},{"start":10377.296,"end":10377.556,"text":"現在買ETF太熱"},{"start":10399.615,"end":10425.93,"text":"希望說投資人在投資之前先要先理性先選擇一下應該是這個意思吧是沒有錯也就是說投資人我想最基本的啦我想我也不是非常非常很高竿的那個投資人不是有一個基本的原則就是說你的上車跟下車的10點你必須要你必須要了解不是一窩蜂的人家上車你也跟著上車"},{"start":10427.131,"end":10427.651,"text":"總裁是看好今年台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":10447.903,"end":10462.199,"text":"我還是基本上會比去年好比去年好信心從哪裡來的這主要就是說我們的出口有復甦我們出口你看喔從10月份10月份910月份111212"},{"start":10464.882,"end":10477.756,"text":"都都是成長的這個很顯然的就那當然我們的出口成長呢很大一部分呢也是跟AI有關係啦跟AI有關係但是其他的慢慢的"},{"start":10479.332,"end":10505.228,"text":"在五六月份以後的普遍的應該也會隨著上升所以也就是說我們的出口好我們的投資就會好我們出口好投資好那另外呢我們的消費的這個部分我們消費的部分去年去年我們經濟成長說實在的主要都靠消費那消費呢就是剛好就是我們解封了以後或那個什麼"},{"start":10505.928,"end":10506.488,"text":"總裁認為經濟成長好,因為我們出口會增加。內需也會增加。"},{"start":10529.657,"end":10543.384,"text":"對,對,沒有錯那這個因為我昨天有問主界長主界長說大概如果把這個電價這個成長的這個部分把它計算進去的話大概是2%那2%這個主界長他認為說溫和哇他講了好幾次溫和那總裁勒"},{"start":10547.186,"end":10561.005,"text":"總裁開發怎麼樣?主席長他講的也沒有錯不過我們是稍微稍微就比較保守一點因為我們原先的我們在12月的時候的預測就是說1.89"},{"start":10563.829,"end":10583.46,"text":"那1089如果說剛看到就是說我們的這個電價要上漲的這個方案我們如果說把它計算進去還有考慮到其他的那這個也要漲那個也要漲那還有考慮到就是說通膨逸期的心理的話也許我們會超過2%"},{"start":10584.901,"end":10586.622,"text":"但是這個就是說我們下個禮拜四我們的禮監事會會來很謹慎的來討論這個議題那這個相信總裁也會相當關心美國的這個聯準會他們會不會降息"},{"start":10604.168,"end":10623.23,"text":"這個呢也就是說市場目前都一直覺得美國是在6月以後會降息會降息但是呢你認為他們會降息的原因在哪裡?他們通膨有控制住了嗎?他們這個經濟成長達到預期了嗎?這是市場的預期不過呢那總裁的看法勒?"},{"start":10623.87,"end":10638.884,"text":"我們要相信總裁的看法費德還是很謹慎因為中央銀行畢竟對中央銀行的想法會比較接近我們對中央銀行在了解中央銀行的一個想法會比較接近一點我們認為費德還是非常謹慎的"},{"start":10644.209,"end":10663.04,"text":"跟你一樣的謹慎跟你一樣的謹慎一樣的謹慎所以6月之後會降息嗎因為美國他是說如果那他還是有條件的如果說他一期就是說他的通膨有到下降到2%左右"},{"start":10664.761,"end":10679.295,"text":"哦有下降來啊然後呢他的經濟呢也能夠有有有有也能夠就說哎是這也是是有韌性的啊但是通膨有下來嗯那他也是很希望因為市場都認為有75%的會軟著陸嗯"},{"start":10682.017,"end":10701.565,"text":"那這樣的話呢他就認為這個就符合他的標準但是什麼時候會符合這個標準Fed他也不敢說大家抓準6月之前不會改變但6月之後有可能那台灣呢因為我們的這個利率通常會跟著美國走吧"},{"start":10703.426,"end":10724.128,"text":"也不一定啦因為我今天有看到這個早上這個其他委員有問就是說美國在6月之後有可能降息但是台灣不一定有可能會升息嗎我們基本上我們跟美國不太一樣的地方就是說美國是通膨的很高然後然後呢他就提高利率"},{"start":10724.988,"end":10743.637,"text":"對就極速的提高利率那我們通膨不會像他那麼高所以我們提高的利率都是很溫和漸進的那你的溫和漸進上因為他是上面是調降下來的所以呢他就是有調降的空間那中央銀行呢我們要看我們的通膨的情況"},{"start":10744.488,"end":10758.893,"text":"那我那時候說如果通膨大概就是2%現在大概是主流的看法啦主界長大概還有國會主委對國發會主委他們大概都是認為是2%啦那如果在2%左右的情況之下對那在這個條件的情況之下那總裁方便講嗎"},{"start":10760.733,"end":10785.325,"text":"我第一個我會說我們會很謹慎第二個呢我們除了就是說電價的這個電價的這個的調升以外會對CPI的影響以外我們還要注意的就是說是通膨預期的心理因為如果說大家都在講通膨通膨他就會自我實現喔"},{"start":10786.565,"end":10809.334,"text":"所以就是說大家不要有這個預期的心理就是說啊會通膨然後就那結果這個預期的心理就真的發生了這當然這也是有可能那只是說因為總裁之前有提到說對於臺灣的經濟成長是看好的那我只是想說如果這個利率這個不降反升的話不曉得會不會對於經濟造成成長會造成影響"},{"start":10810.634,"end":10831.182,"text":"呃基本上呢我說我們台灣的經濟齁他他受到external受到外部的影響比較大嗯我們本身的這個影響比較少嗯哦都外面外面的就是說你的出口好的話呢基本上呢我們就跟課程我剛剛所說我們的出口好"},{"start":10832.442,"end":10846.119,"text":"我們出口好我們的投資就會好那我們的消費水準也會維持一定的水準那在這種情況那政府的支出呢也有成長那在這種情況之下好像就是說你經濟是會往上推的"},{"start":10849.462,"end":10874.071,"text":"其實時間不多我還有一題想要問的就是這個央行有打算要發行那個數位貨幣我們是還是在研議當中中國的這個人民銀行他們是不是有發行?他們事典他們是現在講說是事典事典也不是正式發行他只是事典而已但是沒有正式發行"},{"start":10875.311,"end":10895.943,"text":"就是說我是認為啦就是說數位貨幣當然有它的這個流通性跟它的這個方便性但是也有它的一個高度的管制性在所以這部分的話我認為這個總裁在發行這個數位貨幣的時候可能也要注意到這一點好我們會我們會說的沒有錯我們會很小心好謝謝總裁謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10903.837,"end":10906.098,"text":"接著請陳玉珍陳委員質詢首先我們請總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":10923.498,"end":10944.944,"text":"總裁你好我們立法院在上個會期曾經通過臨時提案要求央行會同金管會提交打造外幣現鈔兌換新台幣現鈔及儲值卡復合性設備之可行性的書面報告現在外籍旅客到我們台灣來"},{"start":10947.348,"end":10973.934,"text":"對換新台幣的管道有幾種第一個就是清零銀行郵局信用合作社和榮譽會信用部對換新台幣第二個就是用銀行的提款機外幣對換機現在全國機場港口總共有30台對換機接著到一些收兌處比如說旅館、百貨公司、博物館這些景點近10年大概有200多家"},{"start":10975.714,"end":10996.65,"text":"我們來看金門金門也是國門小三通往來的人也很多很密切現在在金門唯有人民幣兌換台幣的提款機是永豐銀行我們的水投商港有兩家金融機構一個是信和社一個是土銀林貴兌換的服務是"},{"start":10999.372,"end":11018.484,"text":"一到五的早上九點到下午三點半禮拜六禮拜天一例一休所以沒有提供那還有一個我們有個購物中心金湖廣場金湖飯店都有那這個我們最近相信有在反映這個當然因為還有週休都沒有辦法換那如果在水頭這個提供這個香港提供這個外幣的這個兌換金這個部分讓我們這個"},{"start":11023.092,"end":11023.332,"text":"總裁你怎麼看"},{"start":11044.078,"end":11047.564,"text":"我簡單的就是說當然就是說設置這個兌換機這個也是商業行為"},{"start":11058.073,"end":11075.386,"text":"但是呢就是說委員執行的也沒有錯啦就是說這個是說好像如果說不普遍人民不方便那這個呢就是說有違反這個普惠金融的一個目的"},{"start":11078.148,"end":11093.701,"text":"是的 我也滿贊同我也支持我們這個到時候請我們這邊當然跟那個我們我想我們這個我們來我們來因為這個是金管會的資訊我知道我知道但是因為這之前你們跟金管會聯合提出相關的這個這個外幣現鈔兌換新台幣現鈔來複合式設備的這個提出"},{"start":11100.507,"end":11100.527,"text":"第2個問題"},{"start":11118.903,"end":11134.697,"text":"今天這個這幾天的媒體有報導這個為了因應未來這個貨幣支付的這個新形式剛我看很多委員有問就是評估要導入這個央行數位貨幣CPTC的可能性那從去年11月開始委外進行大概4月結案5月會這個公布這個結果這個你們要做這個"},{"start":11139.381,"end":11142.003,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":11159.453,"end":11171.502,"text":"這個根據國際貨幣基金的MF的報告齁這個全球現在已經有超過100家在研究這個齁中央銀行的數位貨幣喔那裡面也在研究嘛齁那現在是因為虛擬貨幣的詐騙"},{"start":11174.226,"end":11178.449,"text":"今天5月調查完成後,你預計發行期程大概要多久?"},{"start":11198.484,"end":11201.668,"text":"我們還是有三個階段第一個階段就是說我們收集了這個資料來我們看到了結果然後我們會論壇我們會舉辦公聽會"},{"start":11215.005,"end":11233.674,"text":"因為要廣泛的讓大家知道這件事情而且專家學者的意見是什麼我們也會納入考量這個是第一個一個一個工程那另外一個呢我們對現在目前我們這個平台他的一個技術是不是有再精進的一個空間嗯"},{"start":11235.636,"end":11249.386,"text":"還有我們也跟國外的那個什麼沙盒跟那個BIS啦跟其他的SWIFT啦共同來看他Cross border就是說你跨境的話要怎麼來設計這個都是還是在進行當中那這個時間不會很短這個可能要很長的時間"},{"start":11256.271,"end":11256.591,"text":"我們現在的進度不會輸其他國家"},{"start":11271.974,"end":11296.488,"text":"所以呢所以所以就是說你講了很多以後你沒有告訴我一個答案我剛剛也講了就是說一個time table到目前我們還都沒有你也沒有理定一個政策沒有說大概比如說收集資料要3個月什麼東西要專家協議研討在3個月所以你有沒有打算把這個當做一件事情去做"},{"start":11297.108,"end":11309.045,"text":"有嗎?當然有當然有嗎?那所以如果有要做像我們這一個目標嘛比如說大概半年內完成三個月內完成一個月一年內完成沒有這樣的這個對這個到目前為止我們還不會那這樣子"},{"start":11315.473,"end":11338.089,"text":"這個中央銀行做這個政策決定未免太過輕鬆吧不會所以我剛剛我才會你剛剛有講好幾個事情嘛我剛剛還有引用到那個什麼power就是美國央行的那個power就是他的主席他所說的話他發展CBDC他要非常非常謹慎他也沒有時間表"},{"start":11338.669,"end":11343.047,"text":"那不只會說所以其實也你的意思如果在我的聽起來就是說"},{"start":11344.349,"end":11373.689,"text":"你是要往做的方向去做嗎還是你要不要做都還沒有確定而只是說我們會往我們可能會做還在研議階段我們還是往前走但是什麼時候做是一回事你是有打算做還是沒有打算做有打算做才有一個說啊多久做什麼連要打算做都還沒有決定但是就是說我們是有這個決心要往前走往前走是做還是不做勒"},{"start":11374.869,"end":11375.029,"text":"一件事我剛剛有一個"},{"start":11402.534,"end":11405.117,"text":"你們不是應該帶領各個銀行做先進的一些我剛剛有一個委員提到NEID的事情"},{"start":11414.68,"end":11441.546,"text":"我剛有聽到,他有問,我有聽到所以我才在問你啊我說政府呢也是要往前推的嘛政府要往前推,政府是要往做的方向推嘛但是呢到時候呢他就說是要往做的方向推是嗎還是不一定不,慢慢,我不是說不一定你往前推但是呢你有一個最大的前提就是說要讓這些的大家都能夠了解"},{"start":11442.706,"end":11471.284,"text":"這個是不是會涉及到很大的問題那那個是涉及宣導那宣導是後面的事情你的政策決定應該是有一個方向吧比如說我們對0到6歲國家養要不要做啊這個是先有一個政策決定然後接著說做如果做的是分期是哪幾年做什麼事情哪幾年做什麼事情因為央行是一個相當重要的單位吧如果你自己這個單位都沒有想要隱隱前進你下面這麼多銀行這個怎麼也是跟著政策走的啊"},{"start":11471.804,"end":11490.135,"text":"如果鼓勵電子支付鼓勵這種數位貨幣所以我想了解是您的政策方向或者說你們還是在我的政策方向我還是往前走啊我知道往前走你是要往左邊走往右邊走往南邊走往北邊走啊我跟委員報告啦最少最少你的研究的階段都要3年以上"},{"start":11491.035,"end":11512.689,"text":"對啦你給一個時間嘛所以說這個數位貨幣要不要推呢至少要先研究三年嘛你的意思說還是要研究研究三年以後才能決定這個往哪邊走可能做或是不做嘛這樣講可以嗎所以說非常的慢嘛數位時代什麼事情研究三年不就是非常的慢嗎"},{"start":11513.61,"end":11513.83,"text":"不過報告．"},{"start":11529.912,"end":11551.739,"text":"你所使用的技術呢可能就是說技術是一回事這個中華民國的技術應該是相當好我會對我們國家這個有信心我的意思是說政策方向其實才是重點如果照這個央行的總裁您的這個回答方法那個科技日新月異但是你一個政策需要研究三年我覺得這個應該在好的"},{"start":11553.419,"end":11554.74,"text":"我們的速度都比其他國家還快"},{"start":11583.21,"end":11597.921,"text":"所以你的意思是其他國家研究超過3年喔?有的,都超過了其他國家研究多久,請你給我一份資料哪些國家研究超過3年世界先進國家從開始研究多久,請你給我一份資料,好嗎?好,謝謝你現在質詢請顏寬恆,顏委員"},{"start":11617.442,"end":11623.345,"text":"主席各位列席委員主席我想請央行我們的楊總裁楊總裁楊總裁早總裁早總裁我想請教賴總統在擔任行政院長的時候推動了數位身份證那當時號稱數位身份證就是一把萬能的鑰匙那"},{"start":11645.217,"end":11660.366,"text":"集結了自然人憑證、駕照、健保卡、國民年金、勞保、育兒津貼、交通監理、車籍資料、稅務通關、護照、簽證、公投連署、申請契約"},{"start":11661.907,"end":11678.824,"text":"這些東西就像一卡萬能的這樣子的形容但是後面衍生出來的這個資安的問題在當時包括中研院的學者還有大眾連署反對所以在行政院110年2021年由當時的蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":11685.581,"end":11699.196,"text":"來做出一個暫緩換發作業做出一個這樣的決定所以委員說的沒有錯而且他說必須要等到制定專法跟取得社會共識才可以再辦理那我想要請教就是說當時為什麼在"},{"start":11701.138,"end":11723.174,"text":"那麼重大的一個科技政策然後呢要來在實行之前沒有先取得社會共識也沒有做有效的安全的規劃跟資安的一個資訊的評估當時那可不可以請總裁您來做個說明那報告委員至於就是說"},{"start":11725.587,"end":11734.803,"text":"委員在講的就是說前面這一段,基本上我坦白的跟委員報告這一段我們不曉得"},{"start":11735.649,"end":11763.701,"text":"那我們中央銀行呢我們的角色是什麼呢我們是就是說剛好就是說這個是內政部要推的嘛當然內政部推推推到一半的時候呢他們覺得就是說他本來是找那個私人的廠商但是呢他們後來才發現就是說可能他們做不下去要中央銀行來做所以呢中央銀行就承接了這個工作那個總裁好"},{"start":11764.821,"end":11778.693,"text":"我來講啦齁當時人力政部徐國勇部長強調說這個晶片都是由台積電來產製請我們的國人要安心大眾要放心不會有各自外洩的可能"},{"start":11779.801,"end":11806.621,"text":"是單憑就因為是台積電做的是一個部長的保證就絕對沒有這個資訊的漏洞嗎我跟你講就像現在已經有89%的國家使用數位身份證就連法律最完整的愛沙尼亞跟德國他們都發生這個駭客的大規模攻擊包括愛沙尼亞造成銀行跟政府的停擺"},{"start":11807.702,"end":11821.118,"text":"德國在2018年也被發現有資安漏洞還可以假冒本人來存取這個網路的資訊跟服務我們現在手上的資料就是說像德國"},{"start":11823.277,"end":11850.65,"text":"反對的理由裡面包括德國也只有不到三成的人有啟用這種晶片功能就是我們的這個數位身份證所以在這樣子的一個在我國我們台灣也沒有專法也沒有專責機構來做監理來做後面的一個管轄然後就倉促的提出數位身份證那造成了我們現在的一個"},{"start":11851.857,"end":11861.326,"text":"跟被這個廠商求償那我們到底這一次我們又要賠多少錢這些錢這些被求償的金額是不是又要民眾買單"},{"start":11864.91,"end":11886.324,"text":"這個據我了解是因為這個是內政部在主導的啦所以主要內政部主導那既然是內政部主導但是我想要問的就是說工程會主委工程委員會主委吳主委他在備詢的時候有提到說這件事情一定有人負責但是"},{"start":11887.363,"end":11903.643,"text":"．"},{"start":11904.202,"end":11906.123,"text":"委員講這個問這個問題啊我真的我是我個人真的沒辦法回答"},{"start":11929.571,"end":11950.293,"text":"因為這個牽涉的部分要這麼講全台灣2300萬人如果假設這個今天數位身份證已經上路了那碰到不曉得碰到什麼情況是這樣的漏洞啊或者是裡面一些資訊的被駭客攻擊啊那全部的國人都會遭受這樣子的一個攻擊那這些所以我在想這是一個"},{"start":11951.408,"end":11951.988,"text":"報告委員當初我們的機器設備採購是3.79億接近4億嘛對不對"},{"start":11972.645,"end":11983.027,"text":"是不是對3.79OK那後來不是有負了一個暫緩計畫之後負了多少錢暫緩期間機器折舊加上我們暫緩期間的費用總共負了2.02億就是我們3.092.22.02OK3.09那就4億多嘛沒有3.095點多嘛5億多嘛那現在要賠多少錢"},{"start":11998.43,"end":12020.401,"text":"那現在這個2.021是內政部已經支付給我們的不是,那後來跟廠商的這個跟廠商就是我們跟下游的供應商之間,材料供應商那因為次約終止以後結算的金額是最高2.8億2.8億,所以總共金額多少,到底多少那實際上2.8億還要看有一些剩餘的材料這些錢不管怎麼樣這些錢是誰要賠的"},{"start":12022.591,"end":12045.302,"text":"那我們給廠商這個錢還是我們賠嘛 對不對還是由稅金來賠嘛 對不對因為我們是從預算裡面的預算去還嘛所以這個我們要跟我們的業主內政部那邊去要這個錢總而言之就是說這個政府一個錯誤的政策一個倉促然後沒有做完整規劃的就是一個當初為什麼要執行這個政策是為了誰可不可以告訴我"},{"start":12046.321,"end":12074.68,"text":"當初我們是承接內政部委託我們做身份證的製作,自發作業是你們委託嗎?我們接受內政部委託嗎?對,我們接受內政部委託所以一個錯誤的政策讓我們虧了這些錢那假設這個政策真的上路了,拿到了這個身份證讓我們資安的疑慮或者說接受到這種科技駭客的攻擊所後面造成的這種真的是無法想像所以我想"},{"start":12076.821,"end":12095.011,"text":"在這邊我們要告訴各位接下來我們聽到陳院長說這些設備在未推行前還可以用在別的地方我可以請教總裁這些設備如果沒有做我們的這個沒有去執行那他可以用在什麼地方跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12100.294,"end":12124.157,"text":"因為這個設備我們是一般在製作高階的卡片用的所以一般的信用卡是不會用到這個設備一般是政府的卡片證卡會用到所以我們可以發行臺灣的數位貴賓卡是不是是不是這個概念那我們現在考慮的就是沒有晶片的那能夠提供什麼服務啊對啊就是說我們要發行的話如果發行數位貴賓卡可以提供什麼服務給持卡人"},{"start":12125.004,"end":12132.187,"text":"我們現在可以做卡片沒問題這個設備可以做卡片做高階的方式有跟內政部建議過可以做不含晶片的身份證卡片"},{"start":12138.763,"end":12139.023,"text":"我接著請教就是說"},{"start":12157.344,"end":12183.797,"text":"再請教總裁現今外籍移工我們在臺灣的外籍移工非常多那因為他們這個跨國匯款的管道有幾種可不可以快速告訴我有幾種現在目前有兩種第一個就是小額匯款公司現在是金管會准許一些的匯款公司匯款另外一個就是中介中介是貸結匯這兩個管道"},{"start":12186.454,"end":12196.907,"text":"生下兩個管道原來的那些私立就業服務機構算不算在裡面?現在不算了嗎?可是那個不是有合法的私立就業服務機構有1680家?"},{"start":12199.804,"end":12205.53,"text":"應該是應該1680家他是待結會的對待結會沒有錯嘛那是屬於待結會OKOK對對沒有錯那個是在91年的不是那個是當時87年的時候勞委會的韓式同一開放的嘛到91年那個8月份就廢止了嘛"},{"start":12220.525,"end":12236.158,"text":"但是我們中央銀行還是有那個什麼法院預計我知道就是讓他延用一直用到現在對不對好那我直接講重點就是說一年一年的會對的金額大概是900億"},{"start":12237.699,"end":12253.887,"text":"如果以一個外籍移工以1萬塊台幣的話的金額會到每個月每個月會1萬塊回去故鄉給他們的家人那這樣子人數75萬人然後算起來大概一年是900億但是目前111年會對的額度不到250"},{"start":12259.946,"end":12260.607,"text":"我們提供你那個比較準確的數據"},{"start":12275.003,"end":12280.465,"text":"去年匯出去42.4億美金一百一十三年一月匯出3.7億美金平均每人匯出是490塊美金"},{"start":12295.811,"end":12317.125,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12317.796,"end":12333.492,"text":"我們可以聽為什麼差異那麼大因為你是用估算說每一個人多少每一個人對啦對啦當然啦那我再跟你講就是地下會對的部分我們都知道只要有漏洞詐騙集團是無所不在的是是是"},{"start":12333.592,"end":12339.093,"text":"我們希望能夠保障他們外籍移工有一個安全更好的一個工作環境包括他們的薪資所得我們希望他能夠得到一個非常安全非常安全的這樣子的環境"},{"start":12361.677,"end":12376.862,"text":"讓他們的辛苦的工作的得到的這些報酬能夠很完整的回到他們的家鄉回到他們的親人的手上好不好那請總裁這些部分再請你提供給我那我們就好謝謝因為時間到了謝謝謝謝你謝謝言委員接著我們請羅明台召委謝謝"},{"start":12394.673,"end":12400.255,"text":"主席各位出列習慣當然好主席各位請楊總裁請總裁齁羅委員早楊總裁你好我看總裁是很重要啦齁謝謝謝謝中華民國就靠你啦那你身體狀況好不好你的身體狀況好不好還很好"},{"start":12423.956,"end":12425.239,"text":"我看你蠻硬朗的齁"},{"start":12427.739,"end":12433.222,"text":"總裁名字是楊金龍剛好今年是龍年the year of dragon"},{"start":12456.054,"end":12480.686,"text":"所以希望你這個龍是不但在中華民國可以屹立不搖更可以是東方升起的一條巨龍講到這個我就跟你討論匹夫無罪懷璧其罪一般可能聽不懂但我知道你聽得懂就是"},{"start":12482.205,"end":12498.942,"text":"現在世界的發展潮流情況之下比特幣數字貨幣是變成未來必需的一個趨勢你想想看如果在六七年前本席在這裡"},{"start":12500.481,"end":12516.038,"text":"指詢的時候拜託中央銀行趕快發行新台幣的數字貨幣你那時候做的時候搞不好今天就沒有比特幣了啊 不會啦 比特幣還會存在的新台幣的數字貨幣在國際有機會可以閃閃發光"},{"start":12523.14,"end":12543.675,"text":"已經錯失了6千年的機會我們聽到很多虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人他說比特幣你剛剛說他是個商品他沒有罪啊他如果不好"},{"start":12545.22,"end":12562.897,"text":"為什麼Elon Musk他要持有比特幣如果他不好的話為什麼美國那麼多的上市公司財產財報上面有寫比特幣為什麼不好的話美國政府手上持有比特幣"},{"start":12564.278,"end":12593.522,"text":"更甚者在美國的SEC也通過了11檔ETF的虛擬貨幣比特幣的項目你知道這個變成是一個世代的差距問題年輕人他們踏入這一塊他們對這個是充滿期待跟希望的"},{"start":12594.741,"end":12621.037,"text":"假設67年前中華民國政府不逃避用誠懇面對認真的態度來好好把法令規章管理好那你想想看67年前所有投入虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人手上的資產當初一個比特幣大概是6000塊美金"},{"start":12622.868,"end":12651.613,"text":"現在已經漲到七萬兩千塊美金了總裁我們是不是間接的讓這些年輕人上司的一個可以在資產大幅增加的一個機會就這些年輕人很多啊都是台大資工系畢業的啊都是高材生啊很多在台灣待不下去就"},{"start":12653.53,"end":12673.079,"text":"流落到新加坡跑到香港跑到杜拜去你如果說比特幣他是犯罪的你就全面禁止啊可是他不是啊他是一個商品嘛所以我們不應該本末倒置"},{"start":12674.164,"end":12699.414,"text":"真正有問題的是詐騙的這些人是金管會你要好好的把所有的審查制度法令規章你應該把它做好才對嘛這個要混啊所以本席在幾年前不同的時間同樣的地點我曾經建議央行"},{"start":12700.404,"end":12723.99,"text":"你要不要卓於買入一些比特幣當作我們的外匯存底你那時候如果買6000多塊現在是漲10倍你知道中華民國有多少人嗷嗷待哺就是要靠中央銀行去年中央銀行繳庫多少我們去年繳1800億1800億沒有一個單位那麼厲害的"},{"start":12729.475,"end":12756.181,"text":"當大家在講說那個台電開始電費要漲了10%你知道總裁啊民間啊小老百姓心裡是多麼的害怕已經是沒有什麼資產了薪水沒有漲物價一直要飆漲這個電如果再漲10%以後啊那生活怎麼生活啊"},{"start":12757.677,"end":12763.679,"text":"所以總裁有沒有辦法央行多賺一點這個台電的一千億你來出啊"},{"start":12764.417,"end":12788.151,"text":"不過我可以就是說很簡單的剛剛委員有講到就是說中央銀行要不要來投資這個比特幣比如說以前它多少漲到多少6000漲到7200但是委員我跟你報告中央銀行還是跟以前所說的一樣我們不會投資比特幣"},{"start":12789.852,"end":12810.423,"text":"因為你說的比特幣從這邊漲到那邊去的時候但是委員你有沒有想到你買到高點的時候呢當它跌下來的時候我們就虧大了然後當然委員講的沒有錯它現在又漲上去啦但是呢7.2億現在目前7.2、7.3這個不是它的最高點"},{"start":12816.306,"end":12835.104,"text":"他有最高點我記得好像有碰到8萬的請問總裁比特幣以後可能會漲到多少錢這個我不敢說有人講到說70萬美金沒有沒有現在目前是說他是到10萬不過我跟委員報告總裁eo mask是傻瓜嗎"},{"start":12837.452,"end":12865.711,"text":"他從8萬跌下來然後慢慢慢慢再上去然後再下來然後再上去這表示什麼他的波動都非常大是總裁那Elon Musk那他為什麼要買比特幣啊那我跟我Mask我記得Mask那時候貨他也很瘋狂他也就是說他買了多少而且他甚至說你用比特幣可以買我的Tesla"},{"start":12867.131,"end":12893.857,"text":"對阿他也是這樣子說阿但是後來有沒有後來他也沒有阿他沒有現在還沒有不代表以後不會有阿但是沒有阿其實總裁我知道你的保守的心態我可以理解阿中華民國的所有官員一般都是非常的保守但是我們期待的是希望台灣能有更多"},{"start":12895.519,"end":12911.631,"text":"遠高遠大的理想可以帶領台灣往前走往前衝你都不要那為什麼新加坡他要你都不行為什麼日本行所以央行大概有幾個字就是你參考一下就是央行大概保守有餘開創不足"},{"start":12922.524,"end":12923.486,"text":"我期待希望的就是說可以有"},{"start":12934.281,"end":12956.953,"text":"大破大立大格局才不枉你的名字叫做楊金龍金的要像一條龍一樣飛龍在天啊而是那個龍坐不成變成小蛇大家對你的期望就是會落空剛剛第一個第二個所提的"},{"start":12957.893,"end":12965.001,"text":"就是本席也是在這邊建議啊還在文員也建議過當黃金那時候每盎司1225的時候本席曾經建議總裁你要多少買一點黃金結果有沒有買"},{"start":12976.701,"end":13005.18,"text":"我沒買沒買沒買都很可惜阿現在每盎司已經漲到2200塊啦本席在考量的是美國不斷的印鈔票大量的印印印印印那請問總裁美國印了那麼多鈔票無限制在印以後會有什麼影響你手上外匯存地你還要放美金嗎我跟委員報告啦會不會通膨美元會貶值喔是啦"},{"start":13005.789,"end":13024.202,"text":"所以呢就是說就是說通膨呢某些國家就是因為他本身的通膨很高所以他才要握有黃金有些國家呢是因為美國制裁他所以呢他才要多買一些黃金"},{"start":13026.059,"end":13038.126,"text":"那像那個RussiaRussia就多買黃金啊中國大陸呢他也是怕人家那個所以他就把外溢存底呢把它轉移黃金啊在台灣呢另外我跟委員報告委員說你說黃金從多少漲到多少不過我給你一個數據我給你一個數據"},{"start":13049.861,"end":13076.09,"text":"我們有計算從民國78年到目前1113年2月底黃金平均的報酬率是4.7%因為他沒有他只有他只有capital gain所以那個就只計算capital gain他平均的報酬率是4.7%美國的公債是多少5%不只是這樣子喔"},{"start":13078.455,"end":13085.767,"text":"黃�金的波動度多少15%美國公債呢他的波動度多少4.6%你看看"},{"start":13088.444,"end":13090.725,"text":"總裁你會繼續買黃金還是買美國公債?總裁最後問你以後會不會考慮買比特幣?"},{"start":13116.524,"end":13127.161,"text":"我跟委員報告我們不會考慮買比特幣但是我們會研究是否要買黃金那你為什麼那你手上為什麼要持股台糖的股票"},{"start":13127.898,"end":13151.224,"text":"沒有那台糖的股票那是longlong time那是很久以前的事情了那是因為那你就趕快要處理掉啊怎麼會央行比特幣不要買那你手上你要買台糖的股票這個邏輯怪怪的沒有那沒有不是我們主動去買的而是以前啊台糖有一些的可能我不曉得因為這個是很久以前的事情"},{"start":13151.784,"end":13156.687,"text":"那你就會被外界認為可以買台糖你不買比特幣那怪怪的啊那當然我沒有就誠實我剛剛一直講比特幣呢從兩萬塊然後上去到趴趴趴八萬多然後又跌下來然後趴趴又到七萬塊謝謝羅委員謝謝楊總裁他就只有接受你當小蛇的建議而已"},{"start":13178.6,"end":13190.47,"text":"希望央行能有更開闊的思維面對未來國際的挑戰我接受委員的建議多元的思考我接受謝謝總裁接著我們請謝玉鳳謝委員你實在是人才"},{"start":13209.391,"end":13210.695,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請我們楊總裁楊總裁"},{"start":13222.273,"end":13241.532,"text":"總裁好我本來是要來詢問你的不過我要的問題你早上好像都已經回答了因為其實我看到通膨的問題你一說國內的通膨可能要定毛在2%我看現在好像都在2%左右對不對"},{"start":13242.193,"end":13272.193,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":13272.293,"end":13300.11,"text":"那這會有連鎖的效應是不是當然啦 這個只是說我們concern啦事實上前幾波是沒有這樣的一個現象啦我只是說有些時候我們會就是說是要考慮遭援一點或就是說比較保守一點所以我才做這樣的一個解釋那不然事實上我剛剛在強調的就是說事實上如果說你到2.2"},{"start":13301.491,"end":13315.618,"text":"二點二事實上呢二點二也是在2%左右啦而且是說二點四九的下來就二點二嘛假設說這樣子說啦假設我沒有就說是二點二啦但是我中央銀行呢我是比較單比較"},{"start":13317.199,"end":13334.513,"text":"比較要小心的就是說我們的物價從1.97到2.95到2.49到今年如果說再突破2%的話那很顯然的就是說這個可能就是說在很長的時間都是超過2%這個我們要小心"},{"start":13336.554,"end":13351.114,"text":"通膨高利率就要高這個就是一定的嘛這個是道理我不要就是說是就理論上是這樣子就實務上也是這樣子通膨高利率就要高這個是無庸置疑的"},{"start":13351.514,"end":13367.234,"text":"所以美國他們這個月它的物價本來預期會下跌可是它又好像有一點緩步的上升所以使得他們預計可能要降碼的這個FED要降息的這樣子的腳步會趨緩"},{"start":13371.438,"end":13389.006,"text":"對於臺灣而言我們也沒有降息的空間嗎所以這是你早上的我剛剛也是在講對沒有錯就是說在6月底以前我們怎麼會有考慮到就是說要降息呢不會那如果油價呢昨天昨天說的他說的他預期今年度的3.43%的經濟成長率是因為他把油價設算成80"},{"start":13399.47,"end":13407.054,"text":"我剛還問了中油他們預估今年的油價是80那目前是80有可能就在於75到95的這個區間那我不曉得央行這個"},{"start":13413.358,"end":13436.654,"text":"對,我們事實上在我們的報告裡面我們也提到了因為這個央行不會自己去預測那個油價是會多少我們也都是引用國外的權威的那個什麼的機構那基本上我們預測好像也是差不多超81塊左右平均一年也不會就是說比去年高事實上跟去年低一點點而已"},{"start":13437.475,"end":13460.374,"text":"跟去年實際的石油的價格是稍微低一點點不過還是提高啦那個尾巴的衝突是啦那因為這個預測我跟委員報告就預測是很難就是說現在預測81塊就是81塊也不是這個是參考價值我說的只是參考值而已啦一樣的不是石油價格是這樣子"},{"start":13461.895,"end":13469.346,"text":"事實上你對CPI或是對那個ZDP的預測都是參考價值而已因為後面的那個資訊會慢慢的進來那什麼時候我們這個3.43%不會達成"},{"start":13475.53,"end":13502.181,"text":"經濟成長率GDP 4.3我跟委員報告因為他認為就是說我們的出口會好我記得好像他就說預測出口會成長6.1他在這樣的一個前提之下6.1除了就是說6.1他出口好還有另外他就說他的進口可能會比較下跌一點"},{"start":13503.361,"end":13515.273,"text":"他的那個輸出這個部分那所以呢他就做了這樣的一個那假設說出口沒有他這樣子的好的話那可怕恐怕我們的經濟增長力也不會那麼高"},{"start":13516.027,"end":13545.336,"text":"所以還是要看出口嗎?出口好你的投資才會好所以油跟電對於這個GDP的影響性就你看起來就是依他那個估計起來都不會影響太大基本上呢油價是比較不會影響到我們的GDP啦油價呢也比較不會影響到我們金人的那個什麼物價的水準啦但是呢"},{"start":13546.116,"end":13563.943,"text":"我們的我們的經濟部我們台電之所以要漲價是因為他虧損他虧損他要彌補他以前的他動動要凍結的部分他現在要慢慢的要上升所以呢也就是說你直接的效果就電價上漲的時候對CPI他馬上會有直接的影響另外呢"},{"start":13567.725,"end":13588.16,"text":"我們的企業他因為當價 當價漲的時候呢他的生產成本也會提高生產成本提高的時候呢他會管價給這個消費者那出口數字也有可能會影響嗎那出口的話基本上是比較是比較比較不會了還有看到你的外匯啊是不是是是是"},{"start":13590.562,"end":13611.13,"text":"還有對於就是各國都在研究數位貨幣對這也是你有做好準備嗎對於我們的治安對因為我們已經沒有辦法仰賴數位部了嗎現在數位部好像都沒有就是infunctional可是你的專家學者"},{"start":13614.231,"end":13641.812,"text":"對,治安的問題呢?你們央行內部的研究對於治安的問題那唯有治安的問題解決了數位貨幣才有可能實行嗎?這個我也覺得委員講的很有道理就是說治安這個一定就是說不能就是說央行的一個系統被駭客進去了以後我們的CPTC整個受到很大的影響那這個支付會亂起來啊"},{"start":13643.933,"end":13660.386,"text":"這個也是我們非常謹慎的地方也是在這裡那你們已經做了沙盒的那個我們這個都有在注意什麼時候可以至於我剛才也講了就是說至於什麼時候非常保守喔"},{"start":13660.666,"end":13681.022,"text":"什麼時候你可以做好準備?因為其實各國都在準備了嗎?什麼時候?我們都說他在準備他在做研究但是基本上中央銀行也是一樣的但是我們是很謹慎的但是我們的步伐不會比他們慢我們的步伐也許都比他們快"},{"start":13681.735,"end":13697.683,"text":"好,那個主席已經站起來了他比較喜歡比特幣,他不喜歡數位貨幣謝謝好,謝謝接著請邱智偉,邱偉文資訊有請央行楊總裁楊總裁"},{"start":13718.003,"end":13740.925,"text":"邱委員早總裁好總裁在你報告裡面就是說你們採取漸進溫和的緊縮貨幣政策所以我看到你們這個趨勢圖大概從去年的第二季開始利率就沒有改變對應該是第二季嘛那到現在已經10個月了那未來呢未來下半年呢"},{"start":13742.168,"end":13760.538,"text":"還是你那個大原則你建金溫和的話可能會很微緩的升息對啦我們就是說我們的中央銀行的一個升息跟美國的升息是不大一樣的美國是噗噗噗噗一直上去"},{"start":13761.078,"end":13761.919,"text":"所以政策利率到現在還不是一個頂點"},{"start":13787.903,"end":13791.411,"text":"這個就要看我們下一次我們禮拜四我們會禮監事會"},{"start":13793.427,"end":13820.141,"text":"所以如果是漸進溫和的貨幣緊急事項長期它是應該是要維生的對不對那現在你這樣問你是不是還沒有到零點就是說這種利益的東西陳委員講的也沒有錯啦很很對我覺得你慢慢的慢慢的那也有可能啊就上去啊但是也有可能就是說我上去了以後呢我要停在那邊然後呢我要停很久"},{"start":13820.981,"end":13821.642,"text":"另外這個所謂豪宅的門檻你會把它調降嗎?"},{"start":13845.902,"end":13870.135,"text":"好載的門檻是不是要調降好像媒體有報了說央行這次理事會會討論我跟委員報告就是說我們的選擇性信用管制這個措施我們每次的那個理監事會都會討論我們也都新聞稿都講得很清楚我們是滾動式的檢討那滾動式的檢討認為就是說"},{"start":13874.557,"end":13901.35,"text":"有可能的時候呢有必要的時候呢我們還是可以實施啊那如果你們這次理事會做成調降門檻的決議那他的政策發動原因為何不過我雖然我這麼說啦但是委員你也不要把它誤解說我一定就要調降你還沒說啊我也不會我也不會說但是呢我要跟委員報告一件事就是說"},{"start":13903.012,"end":13906.956,"text":"財政部他調降有他調降的道理財政部的"},{"start":13919.051,"end":13919.912,"text":"對於這個豪宅的門檻呢我"},{"start":13944.314,"end":13970.188,"text":"還是根據我自己本身對房地產的情況還有貸款的情況我會做檢討所以大家都覺得就是說那個財政部調降下來中央銀行是要follow他好像也不一定是這樣子但是我們還是要強調的中央銀行要調整這個的時候我們會根據我們自己的"},{"start":13972.675,"end":13989.648,"text":"必要性跟正當性然後社會都能夠接受啦然後就不會影響到這個正常的市場秩序這個委員你講的我們都接受這幾個原則把握就好我都接受所以要必要性正當性其實性"},{"start":13990.208,"end":14018.67,"text":"然後能夠解決問題然後又能夠社會認同又不會影響到正常的市場秩序但是沒有錯沒有錯委員的這幾個原則我們都會把它記下來事實上我們的實施也都是朝這個方向走的好另外一個議題請教在你們這個全球經濟前景的不確定因素裡面包括對中國這個經濟成長放緩特別講到這個他們的房地產的這個低迷啊本金消費的低迷啊對所以"},{"start":14020.194,"end":14034.361,"text":"國有銀行不管是公股銀行還是這個私人銀行在中國若有任何的投資啊這個這些可能會面臨到中國經濟下行或消費不振所說的影響有沒有相關的曝險的這個"},{"start":14037.211,"end":14061.444,"text":"你說我們台灣據我瞭解因為這個是整個在追蹤是那個金管會不過據我瞭解金管會都publish他都會publish就是說我們的push有多少不過我記得我記得我們金管會都認為就是說在他的push不高都是在可控制的範圍之內"},{"start":14062.711,"end":14091.819,"text":"所以你理解是這個金管會有相關的警示作用對對對對對目前不管是經濟中國經濟下行消費不振我國有銀行在中國的破險也在可控制的範圍嗎是是是還是有控制對另外你提到經濟零碎化跟供應鏈重組的問題這對台灣是利還是弊啊對台灣是利對台灣整體的經貿利益經貿實力這是利還是弊我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":14095.167,"end":14101.476,"text":"應該你說他利嗎?也不是全部是利啦。但是我們就說就台灣來講我覺得有利也有弊。那這個就要評估啦。"},{"start":14110.888,"end":14139.144,"text":"但是我跟委員報告以目前來講的話到目前為止的話我們臺灣是比較不受到影響所以是利大於弊所以你從金融來看我們是成長的因為這是一個長期的過程所以他在調整調整的過程當中臺灣是不是到最後是利大於弊這個我先講到目前為止是利大於弊我從數字上來看我到目前為止我們還是沒有受到影響"},{"start":14141.309,"end":14167.295,"text":"另外這個當然主權財務基金這部分那當然已經有很多討論我再半分鐘這個當然我也覺得要用專法會比較好啦那央行一貫的政策就是用專法嘛那最主要是錢的來源怎麼來你要對於四大基金那四大基金現在都有主管機關在個別在處理你沒有必要再把四大基金再整合成一個主權基金我是這樣看法這個總裁你同意嗎"},{"start":14168.395,"end":14172.438,"text":"對啦我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":14198.776,"end":14198.796,"text":"請楊總裁"},{"start":14223.036,"end":14234.8,"text":"總裁好很多委員都關心所謂的通膨你這邊報告裡面有講到是說差不多是兩趴左右在今年對不對但是大家會看到是說電價調漲是"},{"start":14237.577,"end":14266.397,"text":"這一波電價調漲可能來勢洶洶喔是大家講是說工業用電有可能漲到15%到20%然後330度以下的民生用電也可能會漲所以換言之它是一個全面性的那既然是全面性的話您認為說這個通膨率還會那麼樂觀只有2%嗎所以我才覺得說我們的這個2%左右是去年12月所做的預測那我們3月份會有新的預測"},{"start":14266.937,"end":14267.125,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14267.918,"end":14295.921,"text":"三月份報告我就說我們禮監事會會有一個新的是下禮拜禮監事會是下個禮拜四嗯下個禮拜四是但是現在目前看起來而且請容許本席再提醒喔是在今年環境部他還會再針對所謂的碳費是也會提出來是明天環境部也會有這個審議會然後會把決定說到底我們臺灣的這個碳費是每公噸要多少錢以及怎麼樣收那都會做一個這個"},{"start":14297.822,"end":14321.894,"text":"遊戲規則千呼萬喚要使出來所以原則上這一些部分可能都會影響到我們到最後的一個消費者的一個物價我覺得委員說的沒有錯但是呢電價是比較可能會影響今年那至於就說碳費的話呢因為碳費那個他那個是可能要到明年才去徵收不曉得是今年"},{"start":14323.795,"end":14338.21,"text":"今年公布集聚以及收費標準明年開始徵收明年徵收今年嗎那就是說是明年的事情但是明年的事情但是可能在今年就可能他就會有一些的"},{"start":14339.091,"end":14349.322,"text":"議期心理啦都會可能啦可能啦但是我也不能但是我一直覺得就是說在這一次的禮監事會呢我們要很謹慎的來討論這個議題是我們會"},{"start":14354.187,"end":14370.918,"text":"我想我們不需要說這個我們也不需要美化但我們真的預期要反映真實的狀況我非常同意那個委員的看法另外早上也有委員有問到所謂最近這個"},{"start":14372.523,"end":14386.711,"text":"一天服務是一場的樂那你這邊有提到是說這怕會有羊群效應啊要避免是可不可以再救教一下如果說現在大家那麼的樂尤其是本期查了一下相關資料台灣從2020年嗯"},{"start":14388.632,"end":14403.967,"text":"一點七兆的這個ETF買賣到2023年已經成長到3.8兆換言之在過去兩年多的時間有兩兆的資金在投入那變成是有人甚至形容說ETF變成是全民運動"},{"start":14405.569,"end":14406.229,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的風險那風險會是怎麼樣"},{"start":14427.639,"end":14442.079,"text":"一般來說,如果假設現在股市大跌,或是怎麼樣?對,一樣的,所以說因為他上去嘛,他上去的時候呢,喔,好像是大家追高嘛,但是當他下來的時候呢,他就會受到影響啊,所以投資人他"},{"start":14444.762,"end":14472.895,"text":"所以剛剛我也提到ETF現在很多的投資人他根本都不知道ETF是什麼他看到就是說他現在是上帳看到那個數字大家就買了對就上車了上車了以後一直上去我總覺得稍微有一點剛剛有一個委員講到了就是說現在好像是都是牛市喔不能說是ETF喔連比特幣也是這樣子喔一直漲美國的股票也是一直漲喔"},{"start":14474.095,"end":14497.189,"text":"但是呢很多的市場的專家都是在警告了會不會有一些的泡沫剛剛也提到了就是說跟這一次跟那個什麼那個那個網路泡沫是不是很類似這個都是要投資人要冷靜的思考總裁也有人講說這個是所謂網紅行銷啊"},{"start":14501.131,"end":14524.396,"text":"對對對對我我也會蠻蠻那個因為網紅出去了以後呢就很可能就是說那些的不曉得的人呢我都聽到那個時候說有多好多好多好那結果就跳下去啦那這個是我也蠻蠻覺得就是說可能可能他有一個有一個所以呢所以我記得好像是金管會對這個行銷"},{"start":14526.596,"end":14546.082,"text":"你的網紅跟這個跟個金融機構是不是有勾結對我好像他也有做這樣的我覺得今晚會他這樣的做這樣的事情是對的是對的也應該要做一些這個調配跟控管但是總裁我再救教一下你覺得今年2024年ETF會不會再飆新高"},{"start":14548.052,"end":14567.085,"text":"因為我剛剛講說2023年3.8兆是是是因為就是說現在為什麼市場都是很瘋狂現在都是有一個議題美國要調降利率了美國要調降利率了好像就所有你看看"},{"start":14567.945,"end":14588.899,"text":"現在美國的股票市場太脹了,我們的科技股都脹了,現在日本也是脹了,台灣也都是脹了,所以好像都有一股非常樂觀,所以我剛剛也會提到所以才會示警,才講說不要揚軍效應"},{"start":14590.98,"end":14606.797,"text":"總裁我最後請教本身有看到這個新聞是說日本央行他們的貨幣寬鬆政策是有包括說買進ETF對那我們這邊呢我們沒有啊我們會不會考慮我們不會當然我們不會這央行從來就是不會進市場"},{"start":14609.039,"end":14627.355,"text":"日本是非常特殊的一個國家他因為他通說嘛通說呢所以呢你看看他ETF進去買他股票都一直買那個美國的那個英國日本的那個什麼政府的公債很大一部分都是他買去了ETF很大一部分REITs"},{"start":14628.515,"end":14640.765,"text":"所以我們跟日本央行最大不同就考量說我們不會去購買ETF最主要的理由是什麼我們沒有通縮啊我們沒有通縮我們現在反而是有一點2%以上"},{"start":14643.494,"end":14657.039,"text":"所以呢一直以來央行都沒有採QE的一個貨幣政策都沒有所以我們未來也不會考慮說去當然當然如果說我們未來不會考慮去購買ETF不會好了解謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":14680.819,"end":14685.204,"text":"主席本期想邀請楊總裁楊總裁楊老遠早總裁好現在午安了你辛苦了那國際貨幣基金的報告說全球已經有"},{"start":14701.389,"end":14719.323,"text":"將近100個那這個國家正在研擬中央銀行數位貨幣CBDC那央行也持續在研議那你們最後目前已經完成了第一階段所謂的批發型CBDC的可行性技術研究"},{"start":14720.023,"end":14725.406,"text":"跟第二階段的通用型的試驗計畫那你們也已經進入到進入到這個意見調查跟精進平台設計工作當中那也強調你們按部就班準備中那但是你過去也曾經說過"},{"start":14741.074,"end":14757.017,"text":"您說過說CBDC我們不是要競賽也不需要這個搶先發行目前我們的時間表發行是什麼時候呢我們到目前為止我就說在研究的階段至少至少都要三年以上"},{"start":14757.518,"end":14773.42,"text":"至少3年以上目前往後推我們還是往前推這是往前推的時間啊對對對還是要往前推就要3年的時間當我們覺得就是說已經我們也蠻有信心的要譜後大眾的一個接受"},{"start":14774.541,"end":14802.192,"text":"在資安剛剛也有講到這個資安的問題還有就是說講到就是說他的隱私權然後隱私權就是你拿了這個CBDC你的交易呢會不會受到監控這些的問題還有包括就是說我們的CBDC要不要有利息這些都是必須要做技術性還有就是說在還有的在在一些理論上呢都要必須要做"},{"start":14802.992,"end":14811.379,"text":"中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列財金資訊股份有限公司"},{"start":14830.053,"end":14838.781,"text":"當然這也必須跟國際來看這個他的樣態是如何對對對或者是這樣子但是我們還是必須要有所準備隨時可以上隨時可以待命因為你之前講了一個這一句話我覺得是蠻有智慧的他說你說的時候不是要競賽"},{"start":14856.115,"end":14856.596,"text":"是什麼呢?穩健"},{"start":14871.306,"end":14885.838,"text":"你不保守但是你是穩健那但是萬一人家國際間跑得比你快你要三年以上啊所以我還是希望你備戰吧保守的意思就是說你可能走三步退兩步"},{"start":14887.551,"end":14912.79,"text":"我也不盡然這是你的解釋但是我也願意接受你的穩健我們也不需要在這邊咬文絕字但是重點是說一旦國際的樣態因為現在訊息萬變我想你有很多套的版本吧對不對你應該有武俠小說裡面我看你比他的版本還多吧委員是講的沒有錯"},{"start":14914.071,"end":14938.802,"text":"所以我看透你是保守當中的進行式的也是激進派的所以我們希望就是要能夠跟世界接軌接下來我們討論你的這個貨幣政策實現的法定目標但是我們知道現在呢光光一個氣候變遷"},{"start":14939.462,"end":14960.401,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":14960.902,"end":14975.461,"text":"這個都是廠商必須要增加成本現在歐盟他開始我們剛剛在衛福部跟環境部在討論也歐盟他們提出的都已經什麼時候要課稅的時間表他都已經訂出來"},{"start":14979.185,"end":14994.994,"text":"所以我們當然環境部是明天才要再開這個探足機的會議所以我們也希望他們加緊這個腳步所以在這樣的情況之下我們看來綠色通膨的壓力是勢在必行"},{"start":14995.794,"end":15010.082,"text":"那對於我們整個物價穩定會造成一個挑戰所以你政府在永續發展跟溫室氣體的減量的這些目標你對於這個評估氣候變遷對總體經濟跟金融體系的潛在影響那你要怎麼樣去協助整個經濟體順利的來轉型到永續的綠色經濟"},{"start":15023.889,"end":15040.315,"text":"您的版本是什麼呢?我跟委員報告,委員就是說對這個議題我覺得您蠻瞭解的,不過我也跟...這國際議題對,我跟委員報告,事實上就金管會跟中央銀行我們各扮演不同的角色"},{"start":15041.275,"end":15054.105,"text":"今晚會議呢他是說你的每個金融機構他必須要配合因為實體經濟跟金融信用的這個部分他一定要就是說來鼓勵企業來達到這個目標你們是要穩定嗎"},{"start":15061.17,"end":15070.233,"text":"對那中央銀行我們有我們的那個角色所以我們在2022年底我們公布了我們中央銀行對氣候變遷的一個策略的措施我們也有而且我們一步一步的要如何來協助您現在講到這個一步一步就是本席所提"},{"start":15085.118,"end":15099.382,"text":"因為2020年到目前為止我跟你說的訊息萬變所以你們還是要因應因為這樣的速度太嚇人了我想你有很多的版本我們會放心所以一定要用心最後一個議題我要請問因為"},{"start":15103.991,"end":15125.209,"text":"媒體說這個月的22號電力會公佈要漲如果真的成如媒體所說的我們好緊張我告訴了王美花部長學校班班有冷氣不能漲我們的漁農業的這個電不能漲我們的330度以下民生用電不能漲"},{"start":15126.19,"end":15145.142,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情況之下我看到主計總署也告訴我們物價指數的CPI它是暴增到3.08%但是它還沒有加上電漲價的這個部分換句話說N型的走勢會出現那N型的走勢會出現再加上"},{"start":15145.842,"end":15161.19,"text":"下個月的電力漲那這個數字還要超標所以在這種情況之下我據聞你3月21號會召開第一次的第一季李建勢會是嗎會不會因為我國物價的漲幅"},{"start":15166.548,"end":15185.019,"text":"會有做升席的手段呢?會不會啊?我跟委員報告就是說跟就是說針對這個通膨的議題啊中央銀行在下一次的禮監事會呢會很謹慎的很著眼的來討論這個議題我們3月21日就會有一個結果對所以3月21日很關鍵啊所以我們也很緊張啊因為似乎是"},{"start":15190.322,"end":15205.065,"text":"媒體說3月22號政府要宣布漲價那你的時間點在前一天3月21所以大家撐著眼睛在看會升息嗎?會嗎?會不會?你的認知3月21會不會做升息的動作?會不會?你個人的看法會不會?"},{"start":15217.647,"end":15242.657,"text":"當然你要理事會去決定嘛你個人的看法會不會理事會當然我們要經過理事會的決議嘛那你個人的方向呢會不會升起這個我還是沒辦法再說回答你還是謹慎還有什麼我還是謹慎對你剛剛講了好幾句欸我按謹慎周延元素元素你這一次元素啊我們背景也插在蛋外公"},{"start":15244.237,"end":15244.337,"text":"鄭振全"},{"start":15270.649,"end":15281.354,"text":"政委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾委員不在請蔡易宇蔡易宇蔡易宇蔡委員不在請鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才政委員不在"},{"start":15284.83,"end":15302.571,"text":"近日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢而委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行於一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":15304.124,"end":15316.416,"text":"本次會議程已進行完畢如果不在場委員補題書面執行員一併列入記錄、刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},{"id":"149923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149923","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135f8e83942b6ca362f08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a625a559157b58088d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建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12:36:20","影片長度":"00:12:49","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":769,"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:36:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T12:23:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1547,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時23分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，請部長看一個影片。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：認識它不錯，會長命百歲，瞭解它之後，會慘不忍睹。這隻海龜，部長認識嗎？部長知道牠在做什麼嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：從牠的鼻孔中把那個……"],["劉委員建國：要拔什麼？這是全世界最知名的海龜，也是我們人類永遠的汙點，不希望人類的垃圾去影響環境，也不希望再有下一隻海龜吃到吸管，所以認識牠會長命百歲，但是看到牠會慘不忍睹，就是這個樣子。","前環保署在107年7月1日實施限制使用一次性塑膠吸管，限制政府部門、學校、百貨公司、購物中心及速食餐店等等，餐飲內用不得提供一次性的塑膠吸管，也有很多業者自己擴大配合這個政策，停止提供塑膠吸管。在108年實施限制一次性塑膠吸管的政策後，荒野保護協會在109年的年底公布臺灣ICC淨灘數據，其中塑膠吸管較108年已經減少了27%，網友也反饋這個政策是正確的。環境部又在111年度再度推動限制飲料店內使用一次性塑膠飲料杯，最遲在今年9月全臺各飲料店不再提供一次性的塑膠杯，沒有錯嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：這個都是正確的方向、正確的政策，我也同意要循序漸進、不要躁進，必須與社會多多充分溝通。但是今天我要提醒環境部、提醒部長，這個限用塑膠杯是不是有不夠周延之處？"],["薛部長富盛：應該還有努力空間。"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是，這個杯身是紙的、這個杯蓋是塑膠的，為什麼會這樣？"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員講到重點了。"],["劉委員建國：我講到重點，你們都沒有處理到重點，奇怪！這是衛環送給我們的咖啡，等一下也送給部長一杯，因為部長沒有喝到。上面的蓋子也是塑膠的，下面的杯子是紙的，這樣的政策是不是有很大的討論改進空間，這是其一，部長等下再答復我，沒關係！"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二，還有一件事情也很奇怪，今年國立海洋科技博物館也舉辦了國際淨灘，根據它統計出來的海廢數據，塑膠瓶蓋依舊是第一名、寶特瓶是第二名，然而荒野保護協會在109年的統計，塑膠瓶蓋一樣也是第一名。你看這瓶是國內廠家的飲料用水，它的設計是杯蓋不分身，另外這瓶是我與召委每天都會喝的，不是打廣告，而是搭高鐵就會有這瓶水，它是杯蓋分身。我還沒有喝，等下請部長喝，咖啡也請你喝。這個瓶蓋到現在都是第一名，所以我就在想，這個杯子的杯身是紙的，但是上面的塑膠蓋為什麼到現在都不處理？是什麼困難度、是什麼理由、是什麼原因？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，這是在技術性的一個挑戰，事實上，已經有這種材料與技術可以讓瓶蓋與瓶身都使用同一種材質，我想廠家當然也會去做，但是到目前為止，還沒有經濟可行的替代品，我想這是主要的……"],["劉委員建國：這兩個都是國內的廠家，上面就有它的logo了，這是國內的廠家，而且這個已經用非常久了，不是現在才產出、不是現在才發明的喔！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：報告委員，這個部分可以用政策引導方式，讓它可以……"],["劉委員建國：我是要請教處長，為什麼……現在是署長嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，賴署長。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！現在是署長，不一樣了！為什麼這個用這麼久還是這樣？這是國內的廠家，為什麼用這麼久還是這樣？你們當時的思考是什麼狀況，怎麼會沒有注意到，結果淨灘的評比連續幾年都是瓶蓋第一名、瓶身第二名？紙杯要限用了，上面卻還是塑膠瓶蓋？我把這個盲點提出來，一個月內，不要說是一周，一個月內，相對於我提出的這個問題，是不是有解決之道，好不好？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，可以啦？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，部長，根據空汙法的規定，出場滿五年的機車是不是每年都要實施排氣的定期檢驗？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：定檢費從1997年以來一直都維持在一輛車80元。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：環境部從今年起要調漲20元，對嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：這一筆調漲20元，原有的80元是從哪裡來的？"],["薛部長富盛：由空汙基金支付，對於民眾的權益完全沒有影響。"],["劉委員建國：對民眾的權益完全沒有影響？"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒有影響。"],["劉委員建國：民眾搞不清楚狀況罵環境部，而環境部也絲毫不受任何影響？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，事實上我們是有公開這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼公開？"],["薛部長富盛：我們有發布新聞稿，事實上，民眾應該可以感受到機車或汽車定檢時並沒有繳更多的錢，我們漲的20元是由空汙基金補貼。"],["劉委員建國：就是不需要從人民的口袋掏錢出來，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：你看這個FB的社群，27年來首度調漲，網譏選前不敢講，選後各種漲！剛剛你說有新聞稿，對不對？你看這個留言區，甚至有某家媒體說荷包GG？"],["薛部長富盛：我們的確是要檢討，這件事情變成被誤導，事實上就是標準的假訊息，刻意帶風向引起民眾內心的恐慌與不滿，以後環境部在這一塊要多注意。原本是好事一件，我們考量到這些定檢單位在過去二十七年來什麼都漲唯獨他們沒漲，同時也為了減少民眾的負擔……"],["劉委員建國：重點是完全沒有從人民口袋掏錢出來，我們還被罵成這個樣子、還要被……"],["薛部長富盛：這是很不值得啦！"],["劉委員建國：還有人寫了一句話「選對的人、漲對的錢」，這個實在是很惡質！就像部長剛才所講的……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們會好好檢討。"],["劉委員建國：這是一種假訊息，媒體還參與其中，非常不應該啦！快速回應，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：106年到112年的機車到檢率，部長可以看一下，每年都有提升，只有110年往下掉1%。這個也很奇怪，不用花人民的納稅錢，只要求一個到檢率，怎麼都只維持在百分之七十幾，直到現在無法達到百分之八十幾、百分之九十幾，更何況還有罰款耶！有蘿蔔耶！有棒子耶！部長？"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討一下。就我個人感覺，當然還是要看實際的數據如何，會不會是比較偏鄉或周遭沒有這種定檢的地方，一般民眾不想為了定檢還要跑那麼遠，這是我個人的感覺。"],["劉委員建國：現在有移動式的定檢，並不是只有特定的點。"],["薛部長富盛：我們來瞭解一下。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！這個應該是可以提高，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：我們來瞭解一下。"],["劉委員建國：已經從署長變成部長，也不對，環保署現在已經改成環境部，有新部長就該有不一樣的作為。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我來瞭解一下。"],["劉委員建國：最後一件事情，全國應該還有6、7個縣市沒有焚化爐，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有那麼多，現在臺灣本島只有南投，外島因為規模各方面比較小，所以我們會去處理。"],["劉委員建國：沒有焚化爐的只有南投？"],["薛部長富盛：南投。"],["劉委員建國：公辦公營的、民辦民營的，BOO、BOT。"],["薛部長富盛：南投其實在三年前就與新竹縣……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，部長，我不是要探討這件事。現在環境部有補助SRF系統，我們地方政府也有辦一個零廢棄資源化系統，稱為ZWS，它分別可以將垃圾製成RDF與SRF的固體再生燃料。但是環保團體擔憂，不管是RDF或SRF，這種輔助燃料的內容物都太雜，拿去焚化之後，如果沒有妥善的監督與管理，可能會產生戴奧辛等空汙的危害。這個連環保局的局長自己都承認了，擔心廠商在防制設備不足或鍋爐不適合的情況下，燒出來的東西會不會有問題？地方的環保局局長都講出這種話，讓我們雲林人怎麼會不擔心！根據我掌握的資訊，大氣環境司針對公司場域固定汙染源應符合焚燒比例及成分標準之燃料、公司場所固定汙染源焚燒比例及成分標準、以及鍋爐的空汙排放標準等三項相關執法提出草案，新增使用SRF設施種類及規模的規範，也要求應設置相關的空汙防制設備，嚴格管控空汙的排放，這個都很OK啦！"],["薛部長富盛：我們現在已經積極進行SRF產品的分類了。"],["劉委員建國：我第一次垂詢部長時就特別向你提到全國的SRF可能要大盤整、大盤點。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：現在這個問題，它製造出來的固體再生燃料真的是問題多多啦！"],["薛部長富盛：我認同。"],["劉委員建國：再加上焚化爐能不能焚化，不再造成二次公害，也是問題更多嘛！部長，是不是給我一個時間，如何去做相關的盤整，以及因應、處理之道？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，現在我們循環署對於產品的分類也都已經出來了、包括排放的標準也都已經修訂，在部內對於這個部分大概也OK了，接下來當然就是要與各界溝通，因為包括環團有不同的意見與看法，業者也是一樣有不同的看法，等我們收集好他們的想法之後再進行修法。"],["劉委員建國：差不多要多久的時間？"],["薛部長富盛：再2個月。"],["劉委員建國：這個會期結束前，好不好？可以嗎？差不多嘛！你講的是2個月，也就是這個會期結束前嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：咖啡就送一杯給部長，好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","因為現場已經針對蔡易餘委員的發言唱名過了，現在他希望能有發言的機會，同意在謝衣鳯委員發言完畢後再發言。","現在先請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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一樣的作為"},{"start":567.89,"end":581.229,"text":"阿最後一件事情齁 全國應該還有六七個縣市沒有魂化爐嘛 對不對沒有那麼多 現在只有臺灣本島只有南投阿外島當然因為規模跟外面比較小 所以我們來去處理沒有魂化爐只有南投"},{"start":584.192,"end":589.973,"text":"公營的公辦公營的民辦民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的民營的"},{"start":611.96,"end":612.1,"text":"蘇貴先生"},{"start":630.137,"end":657.816,"text":"這個連環保局局長都自己是承認的會擔心廠商在防治社會不足或者鍋爐不適合的情況之下會不會燒出東西有問題這個地方的環保局局長都講出這種話那你叫我們地方的就像我們雲林雲林人怎麼會不擔心那我現在有掌握就是大氣環境師他是有針對公司場域固定污染源應符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料還有公司場所固定污染源"},{"start":658.796,"end":659.376,"text":"我們在進行SRF"},{"start":682.426,"end":708.852,"text":"產品的分類的現在有在積極進行我第一次追尋部長的時候就特別跟你提到全國的SRF可能要大盤整大盤點那現在這個問題他製造出來的固體再生燃料真的是問題多多然後要接受的焚化爐能不能還焚化不再造成二次公害也問題更多嘛是不是部長給我一個時間看"},{"start":711.448,"end":711.608,"text":"主席"},{"start":741.571,"end":741.591,"text":"謝謝劉建國"}]}},{"id":"149922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313559e2236cc02af7a508cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a671a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:16:05 - 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免工業廢棄物進入農業部門之外這很嚴重不能讓它進來我們也希望農業資源不要全部都打進了失業廢棄物來處理最後希望你最後一個承諾協同農業部評估再生能源使用多重資源的可行方案可以嗎好那本題的這個主題就是說農業資源循環比照我們資源循環促進法的方式來立法你願意"},{"start":436.766,"end":441.599,"text":"參考嗎?我們共同找農業部來推動?可以啊,各部份分工合作這個是好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝鍾委員,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353a67c86f07db089508cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6e53ce74b245c9edf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"12:06:32 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12:16:03","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":571,"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:16:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T12:06:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1466,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（12時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好，今天彰化有一些鄉親到晶鼎焚化爐開發現場抗議，部長您曉不曉得這件事情？"],["薛部長富盛：好像是在今天嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：就是今天，就是此時此刻！這個開發案當初居民是反對的、縣政府也反對，很重要的是在選前，總統府秘書長林佳龍，也到現場承諾政府會停止這個開發案，但是選後開發廠商又開始辦說明會硬要興建，請問環境部這件事管還是不管？"],["薛部長富盛：我跟陳委員報告，這個案子事實上是在兩年前就經過那時的環保署的環評。"],["陳委員昭姿：有環評過是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：在2年前環評通過，當初在環評裡面有規定晶鼎綠能公司在動工以前必須召開公聽會。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我知道程序也許完成，但是有一些政治承諾，民眾看到政治承諾，因此部長你是不是請環境部再下去溝通協調？好嗎？我剛剛已經提到了，林佳龍秘書長到彰化承諾政府要停止這個開發案，部長，因為這個案子今天發生，也請你繼續……"],["薛部長富盛：我盡我的力量，但是有些東西是超越我的權限，第一個，我也沒有親自看……"],["陳委員昭姿：就請你去關心，因為今天此時此刻居民正在抗議。好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我現在再確認一個事實，中小型廢棄物焚化爐戴奧辛管制及排放標準第七條第一項第五款有講到，既存焚化爐在集塵設備入口的廢氣溫度，規定必須是在攝氏280度以下，新設焚化爐則應要在200度以下。請問這個規定現在是不是還是有效的？這是2005年規範的。"],["薛部長富盛：我是不是請我們環管署來回答？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，只要說是不是還是正確的？"],["顏署長旭明：是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，OK。這張圖的左邊就是目前環境部空污專責教材的截圖，但是這裡談到的觸媒反應，就是框起來的地方，是寫200度到450度，跟現行法規是有衝突的，跟實務上也有衝突，到底是法規有問題還是教材有問題？我知道工廠鍋爐設置觸媒裝置是有必要的，為了降低空污是絕對必要的，但是裝了要真正有降空污的功能，不能只是裝來應付檢查。我要談的一點是說，部長，觸媒的主要成分跟比例……觸媒研發也不斷在進步，主要成分其實決定了操作的溫度，不同材質的觸媒適合的溫度不一樣……"],["薛部長富盛：是，完全認同。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們早期用的釩系觸媒聽說又增加三百多度到四百度，也不高，也不能低，而目前研發的新的低溫觸媒，可能200度以下就可以，但是面對教材跟規範有所衝突，請問這個部分環境部要不要做處理？"],["薛部長富盛：是。我覺得假如隨著科技的進步，新的觸媒……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是教材，專責教材，這個跟法規是不符的。"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得應該修改。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那就修改。好，謝謝。","再來，觸媒成分是不是商業機密？我想請教部長，觸媒廠商說自己的觸媒是商業機密，請問你同意或支持這個說法嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：觸媒當然會是一個商業機密。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道你過去的主張也是如此，但是我剛剛提到了，因為不斷地研發，會不斷地有新的材質出現，如果連簽核的技術師都不能知道內容，那請問技術師要怎麼去核實這家工廠的觸媒裝置跟操作溫度是正確且能有效運作的？如果不讓他知道，那你不是陷簽核技師於不義嗎？不是害他有觸法的嫌疑嗎？因為他不知道真相，他不知道這個內容啊！部長，他們宣稱是商業機密，部長到現在也認為這個是屬於商業機密，我在想有一個方法……其實像藥品也有很多地方都有涉及商業機密，藥品的成分、配方是不是商業機密這都可以討論。是不是可以這樣做，因為技師要去簽核，那可不可以讓技師知道它的成分比例？因為這個影響操作溫度，但是他可以簽守密承諾啊！部長，您覺得是不是可以這樣處理呢？這是陷技師於不義啊，他不知道，他還要去簽核、簽證啊！"],["薛部長富盛：可是我們應該看他使用這個觸媒所產生出來的……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我很努力告訴你說，因為不同的觸媒材質，溫度是不一樣的，也許跟著研發而進步，連教材都要改了，何況是技師要瞭解資訊？部長，我知道過去你們的態度都是把這個當作機密，但是機密也是可以另外再處理的，是不是讓專業人員在做這件事情時是在有知的情況下去處理？好嗎？請你研議一下。"],["薛部長富盛：我們來努力看看。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。謝謝部長。","部長，您知道這張是什麼圖嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個是光害。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是依據NASA美國太空總署跟美國國家海洋暨大氣總署的衛星影像製作的，我跟部長解釋一下，圖中藍色跟黑色的部分表示該區的夜空是相對比較黑暗的，綠色、黃色、紅色部分表示是人造光散發出來的光線。部長，你可以看臺灣西部放大的圖，臺灣西部地區綠色、黃色部分，比起全世界，光害相當嚴重。部長知道光害會造成什麼影響嗎？我就直接告訴部長……"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，剛剛也有委員提到，環境部本身也在研議光害。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但是我希望部長能夠做得更積極。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：光害對人體健康的影響，對睡眠一定有影響，對視力一定有影響，因為我們身體荷爾蒙的分泌是有生理節奏的，荷爾蒙的分泌也會因為光害而異常，甚至造成小朋友性早熟，都有可能。有很多人在開車，看到遠光燈，都是很大的傷害。"],["薛部長富盛：對，現在遠光燈是LED的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是現在國內的光污染陳情案每年大概有700件，比起噪音跟其他污染看來比較少，那是因為國人不知道光害也是一個光污染，也不知道可以跟誰陳情。部長，到目前為止，我談的你都接受跟瞭解，這是有一些科學的依據，跟全球的一些規範。現在我們缺乏光污染管制的明確法規，我要談的就是2014年法制局其實有一些專題的研究，2021年監察院曾經發函指出中央缺乏強制性的法規，將會造成稽核人力的浪費，且地方政府想要做一些自治的條例，也無所依循。所以要求儘速將光害防制法提案送審，但是今年1月修正的光污染管理指引卻連行政命令都不是，連這個層次都不是，所以我想知道，對於光害這件事情，環境部的態度是積極的嗎？你管還是不管？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，我們已經修訂了兩版光害管理的指引。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是還在指引的階段，連行政命令都還不及啊，對不對？我再舉例，最新修正的指引當中，對於路燈色溫規定很寬鬆，根據國際暗空協會的標準，各級道路路燈色溫應該不要高於3,000K， K數越多表示光害越嚴重，但是臺灣現在的鄉鎮基本上都是採購4,000K到5,000K的LED燈。另外，現在很多交通工具是利用非可見光來偵測或掃描，這個也沒有納入，所以我想我們是不是要從源頭來處理？","捷克在2002年成立光害防制法，是第一個立法防制光害的國家，南韓跟英國也跟上了，我想再問環境部，你知道我們的連江縣也有光害管制自治條例嗎？您知道嗎？我們管轄的連江縣立這個法，你知道為什麼嗎？是為了保護藍眼淚。我知道這個問題會跨在環保、交通、生態、農業、衛生福利等，但核心議題還是環境保護，所以拜託部長快速研議一些裁罰的標準及比較具體的法規。第一個，請把非可見光納管，因為現在很多工具都在使用。第二個，明定色溫、流明上限跟開關的時間。另外一個是宣導，宣導什麼呢？燈具照地不照天，減少光線的散溢，好嗎？部長，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。我們朝這方面來努力。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":163.061,"end":163.081,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":178.789,"end":178.809,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":199.93,"end":215.544,"text":"進步新的觸媒這個是教材阿專責教材阿對阿所以這個應該修改那再來齁觸媒成分是不是商業機密我想請教部長觸媒廠商說自己的觸媒是商業機密請問你同意或支持這個說法嗎"},{"start":219.541,"end":243.677,"text":"當然會是一個商業機密我知道您過去的主張也是如此但是這個是因為它我剛剛提到了會有不斷的研發有不斷的新的材質出現如果連鉛核技術師都不能知道它的內容那請問技術師要怎麼去核實這家工廠的觸媒裝置跟操作溫度是正確的而且是能夠有效的這個運作那你這樣做如果不讓他知道那你不是限這個這個"},{"start":245.956,"end":254.392,"text":"所謂的這個設計這個技師這個簽證簽口都是限他於不義之地嗎現在有處罰的嫌疑嗎因為他不知道真相啊不知道這個內容物啊那部長就說"},{"start":259.389,"end":277.927,"text":"這件事情就是說如果有一個方法我在想他們宣稱是商業機密那你部長你到現在也從也認為這個是屬於商業機密是其實這個在藥品很多地方都有談藥品的成分配方的是不是商業機密這可以討論那是不是可以這樣因為技師要去核發嘛核簽嘛"},{"start":278.968,"end":301.594,"text":"那可不可以讓技師知道他的成分比例因為這個影響他的操作溫度嘛那但是他可以簽索密承諾啊部長您覺得是不是可以要處理呢我個人覺得基本上我可以限這個技師於不義啊他不知道啊他還要去簽合啊簽證啊可是我們應該看他使用這個觸媒所產生出來的不管是"},{"start":302.014,"end":302.134,"text":"下一張謝謝部長"},{"start":331.496,"end":332.298,"text":"您知道這張是什麼圖嗎?"},{"start":334.361,"end":361.295,"text":"這個PM2.5這是光海這個是美國太空總署跟美國國家海洋暨大氣總署的那個衛星影像製作的那我跟部長解釋一下藍色跟黑色表示就是該去的夜空是比較相對黑暗那綠色黃色紅色是表示是就是有人造的光散發出來的一個光線部長你可以看到台灣的西部那個放大的圖台灣的西部地區綠色黃色部分比起全世界"},{"start":362.435,"end":385.881,"text":"光害相當嚴重你看到這張圖這張圖好那部長知道光害會造成什麼影響嗎我就直接先告訴部長陳委員報告事實上剛剛也有人提到環境部本身已經也在研議光害但是我想我要繼續這個就是讓部長能夠做得更積極他對人體健康的影響我想這個光害睡眠一定有"},{"start":386.861,"end":412.323,"text":"視力一定有嘛那你知道因為我們身體的荷爾蒙的分泌是有生物節律是沒錯荷爾蒙的分泌也會異常甚至造成小朋友性早熟都可能是那大家有很多人在開車看到那個遠光燈啊對啊遠光燈有些用LED的那個但是現在國內的汙染的部分有關這個光汙染的這個陳情案每年大概700件是那你比起噪音跟其他看來比較少那是因為國內不知道光汙染也是一個光害沒錯沒錯"},{"start":413.024,"end":440.997,"text":"那他也不知道說這個可以跟誰陳情那部長你在目前為止我談的你都接受跟瞭解這是有一些科學的依據跟全球的一些規範下一張那現在我們就是說我們缺乏光污染這個管制的一個明確法規那2014年我要談的就是說那個法治局其實有一些專題的研究那2021年監察院曾經發函就是說指出中央缺乏強制性的法規"},{"start":441.877,"end":458.485,"text":"好那將會造成集合人力的浪費那地方政府想要做一些自治的條例也無所依循所以要求競速將關害防治法提案這個送審但是今年一月修正的這個關害這個關污染管理指引他連行政命令都不是"},{"start":459.125,"end":475.923,"text":"连这个层次都不是欸所以我想知道说部长您对于这件事情关爱您觉得你环境环境部的态度是积极的吗你管还是不管但是还在指引的阶段啊连行政命令都还不及啊"},{"start":476.84,"end":484.505,"text":"對不對那他這個東西就變成說像像我在舉例好好這個這個最新修正的指引當中他對於路燈色溫規定很寬鬆啦好根據國際這個暗光這個協會指就是說各級道路顏色應該不要高於3000 k k數越多表示光害越嚴重"},{"start":493.27,"end":522.652,"text":"但是臺灣現在的鄉鎮現在鄉鎮就是基本上都開購4000到5000K的LED燈那你這個東西就是還另外一個現在很多交通工具是利用非可見光來偵測或掃描這個也沒有納入所以我想最後一張就是說是不是源頭我們要來處理現在捷克在2002年是第一個國家是設立了光害防治法那南韓跟英國也跟上了我想再問一下您知道我們連江縣也有這個所謂光害管制自治條例嗎您知道嗎"},{"start":523.912,"end":544.682,"text":"您知道嗎連江縣我們管轄的連江縣你知道為什麼嗎因為他為了保護藍眼淚好嗎所以整個問題我知道這個問題會跨在環保交通生態農業甚至很多衛生福利等但核心議題還是這個環境保護所以是不是拜託部長就是說我們來去研議很快速研議一些比較有"},{"start":545.362,"end":563.807,"text":"才發的這種標準以及比較具體的這個法規第一個請把非可見光納管因為現在很多工具都在使用第二個明定適合溫流明上線跟開關的時間另外一個是宣導宣導什麼呢燈具照地不照天減少光線的3億好嗎部長可以嗎好謝謝部長好謝謝陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"149920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353adc904e1c19760308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a602cda474afd28a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:50:47 - 13:02:01","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":674,"end_time":"2024-03-14T13:02:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T12:50:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1704,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長及化學署的謝署長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。今天針對有毒食用化學物質的管理，有些問題想要請教。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我想先請教一下，毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨及任務是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上是統整，因為在105年之前發生過蠻多系統性的食安事件，蔡總統就責成當時的環保署成立化學局，希望可以對國內的化工原料、化學物質做一個統整及源頭管理。"],["陳委員瑩：主要還是為了把關食品安全的源頭，以及整個食品安全度的提升。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：最近大家都在討論蘇丹紅的事件，就蘇丹紅的毒性而言，它是屬於工業用的產品，不能添加於食品……"],["薛部長富盛：是，不能。"],["陳委員瑩：這類物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質？"],["薛部長富盛：它是屬於第四類的毒化物。"],["陳委員瑩：第四類的毒化物，你們對於不同的分類是不是有不同管理程度的分別？"],["薛部長富盛：針對這四類毒化物，假如要運作、要進口，它的流向都必須取得環境部的許可，才可以進行運作及後續的處理，包括標示等等，事實上是相當嚴謹的。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！相當嚴謹，所以我剛剛問不同的分類是有管理程度或強度的不同嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我請謝署長來回答。"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，其實1、2、3、4類並不是排名，只不過是……"],["陳委員瑩：這個我瞭解，證據多寡的問題。"],["謝署長燕儒：第一類是持久性……"],["陳委員瑩：喔！這是指數，我剛講的是級數。"],["謝署長燕儒：第二類是慢毒性、第三類是急毒性、第四類就是對環境或人體健康有危害，所以我們在管理上的強度是一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。剛剛是說程度與強度，強度一樣，程度的話，基本上類別是不一樣嘛！"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["陳委員瑩：再者，行政院食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級，也就是它是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據，可能會引起致癌性，因此對健康安全的威脅有限。我想民眾是沒有辦法接受這樣的說法，不知道部長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：許主任已經道歉了，因為他說的那一類是另外一種分類法，包括致癌的那一類，第一類就是菸酒等等，第三類就是咖啡、茶與蘇丹紅。事實上，這個比喻是不恰當的，我們現在談的是毒化物這一塊，而國內的法規也是規定在這一塊，應該從這一塊來談。但是蘇丹紅事件，除了我們關心的化學雲與國內的這一塊，事實上它還有其他部分我們真的必須要考慮，因為它是以食品或調味料粉的方式進來，而在中國產地是把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面，所以整個案子是辛苦衛福部了，現在是由食藥署在檢查。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也是有點倒楣，發現了還要被大家罵。現在你們化學署的資料庫可以顯示進口的數量，對於資料庫中將蘇丹紅放進來作為為第四類的毒化物，我想國人對這個部分都會給予肯定。但是你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已，重要的是這個毒化物的物質流布管理distribution management的部分，然後這些物質都用到哪裡去了？有沒有按照進口申報的目的使用？我想這個才是你們的任務、這個才是管理的目的嘛！請教署長，你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理、如何確切掌握數據的真實性、以及哪些物質一定要做這個流布的管理，請你說明？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，依照毒管法而言，經我們公告的毒化物關注化學物質，必須要取得許可、要申報，也就是從製造、輸入、販賣、使用、儲存，一直到後面，通通要取得許可、要申報、要標示。我們在網路上的資料庫是可以一個一個去看它的流向，譬如跟誰買、賣給誰、賣多少，每個月都要申報，所以從申報資料可以去做勾稽比對，再到現場去查核實際的東西。"],["陳委員瑩：哪些物質一定要做流布管理？"],["謝署長燕儒：通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：通通都要？"],["謝署長燕儒：對，通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這一次的問題，就是這些工業用的物質變成食品添加物，請問署長，這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們任何的法規？因為我都沒有聽到你們的聲音，好像全部都是違反食安法，與你們主管的法律都沒有關係嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，如果是國內的業者把蘇丹紅色素加入辣椒粉，那就是我們的事、那就違反了……"],["陳委員瑩：你是說國內的業者？"],["謝署長燕儒：對，國內的業者。譬如我們的蘇丹紅色素有進口，有些業者取得之後，把它加入辣椒粉再販賣，這個部分就屬於我們毒管法管轄，在國內把它加進食品就會違反我們的法規。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這次與你們都沒有關係？都是在外面加完之後再進來？"],["謝署長燕儒：其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控，因為我們也擔心真的是在國內添加進去的，事實上就……"],["陳委員瑩：我的問題是到底有沒有觸犯到你們任何相關的法規？"],["謝署長燕儒：目前是沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：目前是沒有，以後再繼續調查下去，也通通都不會有？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，因為它進口的是辣椒粉，並不屬於環境部管轄，辣椒粉是屬於食藥署管轄，最主要是這樣子。"],["陳委員瑩：你們的法規是針對進口商、中間商、或末端的使用端進行懲處？"],["謝署長燕儒：通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：通通都要？"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["陳委員瑩：目前你們有沒有足夠的人力及能力去追蹤、調查及管理？"],["謝署長燕儒：當然人力是要持續補啦！但是我們有地方環保局配合。"],["陳委員瑩：在你們自己的報告中有講到，而且根據我的瞭解，你們已經培訓了一萬三千八百多名應變人員，以及山區有10隊在1個小時內可以達到事故現場，還有2個監控中心與24小時全年無休的……"],["薛部長富盛：環境事故應變中心。"],["陳委員瑩：對，但是你們也培訓了非常多的人嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：以這次蘇丹紅事件而言，你們是如何執行你們的主管業務？"],["謝署長燕儒：目前是分為兩個，一個是剛剛委員提的，屬於毒化災應變的部分，那個體系包括……"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛說的一萬多人對於這個都是沒有用？"],["謝署長燕儒：那是毒化災。"],["陳委員瑩：在這裡就是無效了？"],["謝署長燕儒：那是包括訓練業界的部分。我們做毒化物的稽查管制，主要是與環保局合作，所以我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去，大概是這樣做的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們現在是有足夠的能力及人力去追蹤、調查嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：要持續增加，如果公告的項目、品項越來越多，其實人力還是要持續增加。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛你提到各縣市的環保局，現在你們與他們的關係如何？"],["謝署長燕儒：其實我們在毒化物管理方面本來就是一個team，而且我們也有補助他們人力，大概是在……"],["陳委員瑩：因為有補助，應該是關係良好？"],["謝署長燕儒：在合作上還可以。"],["陳委員瑩：你確定每個地方都還不錯？"],["謝署長燕儒：我確定。"],["陳委員瑩：你確定，很好。事實上，你們是屬於跨部會的業務，因為產業發展署、職業安全衛生署、食藥署、農業部、甚至是國科會的科技研發、教育部大學的教學實驗，其實都與你們有非常密切的關係，所以你們平常是有合作的平台嗎？是雙邊或是多邊？"],["謝署長燕儒：有，我們最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報，其中就有各部會都要進來，議題也都會在這個會報及委員諮詢會議提出。我們的部長是執行長，而且我們還有一些跨部會的工作會議，很多議題都會在這裡進行討論。"],["陳委員瑩：今天我在實務上提了很多問題，主要目的其實是要督促你們，不要把自己做小了。你們的責任是非常重大的，因為現在已經升格為署，負有政策規劃、執行及管理的責任。針對食安的問題，如果有你們正確無誤的資料，從上中下游可以全盤掌握的話，我想對於國人的食安及生命安全的保護，一定是可以做到預防的功效，讓這些不肖業者、這些宵小不敢再為非作歹。希望將來可以真正看到化學署的角色及功能，而且受到大家的肯定。"],["謝署長燕儒：好，我們會持續加油。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束，另有委員廖偉翔、楊曜及邱鎮軍所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","一、查環境部因應組織改造升格後，在113年度編制員額及預算員額數皆有明顯對比過往再增加，然當前進用人事之作業上，於各所屬機關尚存有明顯之員額缺額，恐致業務量能受損，並徒增額外行政管理成本，爰要求限期於一個月內向本委員會提交檢討報告。","二、另查，關於碳費審議委員會自頒定設置要點後，迄今尚未召開會議，以及考量碳費審議作業之重要性不容輕視，是以要求環境部檢討現行該會議每年至少召開一次，容有次數不足之疑慮，並且應落實會議紀錄向外界公開揭露之妥適規劃，爰亦要求限期於一個月內向本委員會提交執行規劃說明報告。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、環境部制定SRF相關配套措施目前進度為何？","問題：由可燃垃圾做成的「固體再生燃料」（SRF），近年被政府視為轉廢為能的關鍵，發展的同時，建廠卻屢屢在地方引起爭議，近期更有媒體報導，不法業者焚燒SRF，燒出超標57倍戴奧辛，根本是假SRF之名、行焚化爐之實，引發民眾恐慌，未來環境部若欲繼續推行SRF，民眾觀感不佳、恐影響民眾健康將成一大阻力，為此，環境部先前有允諾要嚴格規範SRF配套措施，以利維護民眾健康，請問環境部，目前進度為何？","二、為因應歐盟試行碳邊境調整機制（CBAM），環境部該如何協助因應？","問題：歐盟碳邊境調整機制已於去年十月月開始試行，適用產品範圍從水泥、鋼鐵、鋁、化學肥料、電力與氫氣等，與環境部所列管每年必須申報溫室氣體的廠商不盡相同，而根據氣候變遷因應法規定，碳費之徵收對象由環境部定之，請問環境部，是否已與經濟部來研究，將碳邊境調整機制範圍相關產品的中小企業，協助及早建立碳管理相關基礎資料？","根據歐盟碳邊境調整機制的規則，歐盟只承認由歐盟碳交易機制認可的驗證單位所發出的報告，請問環境部，是否已開始輔導國內驗證單位的認證銜接歐盟認證，避免國內廠商僅能選擇國外符合歐盟要求驗證機構？","三、資源循環促進法修正草案何時預告？","問題：據媒體報導，環境部表示，台灣每年產生逾1900萬噸無機再生料，包括飛灰底渣、爐碴、廢淨水污泥等8大類；無機料焚化及掩埋率近年來皆小於1%，這些材料經過處理後，品質可媿美天然粒料，已被廣泛應用於營建工程，用於營建工程逾8成，環境部期盼透過「資源循環促進法」徵收資源循環促進費，提高再利用比率。","請問環境部，資源循環促進法修正草案何時預告？綜整媒體報導，若未來通過資源循環促進法後，資源循環署是否有能力及人力來管理原本散落在各事業目的主管機關所管理之廢棄物？","四、針對未來收取碳費後對於民生物價之衝擊，如何與相關部會謹慎因應？","問題：日前，環境部部長接受媒體採訪表示，「電價調整與碳費一定有關係」，但關聯性並不是那麼大，因為對台電或其他電力生產者徵收的碳費，有扣除其提供給下游消費者所使用的量，仍會持續推動碳費，將該做的工作都做好，目前仍訂於今年第1季公布碳費費率，明年正式收費，若4月起調漲電價，而3月又要公布碳費費率，民眾擔心，是否會對民生及物價造成衝擊？為此，在兼顧國家減碳目標及環境永續、產業發展的情形下，未來收取碳費後，對於民生物價之衝擊，環境部如何與相關部會謹慎因應？"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","議題一：首場碳費費率審議會議將登場","首場碳費費率審議會將在明天（15日）登場，外界都非常關心。","Q1-1：據本席了解這21位審議委員會委員其中只有8位專家是採推薦方式產生，請問其餘代表如何產生？二年任期中委員出缺如何遞補？","Q1-2：針對碳費徵收，專家建議「量出為入」，由政府先訂出減碳所需經費，再換算收取費率，並考慮扣除基本排放量，拉高多餘排放的徵收費率。而環團則主張，要廢除2.5萬噸免費額度，才能符合減碳目標。部長對第一波大戶來說，2.5萬噸是起徵標準？還是免費額度？","委員：政府目前政策傾向先開徵512家大戶，預計每年可徵收多少費用？優先用途是否已經明確？"],["委員\n            ：另外，請教部長，未來預計何時會擴大徵收對象？第二波徵收對象，大概會針對那些產業？"],["委員\n            ：本席認為碳費徵收應逐步落實，針對第一階段先開徵費用，要儘快設計出一套機制，讓企業能夠共同促進減碳，而不是為了應付繳錢。","Q1-3：針對第一階段碳費徵收，環團也建議從500元起跳，請問部長起徵費會傾向300元起徵？還是500元？","Q1-4：部長曾對外說明，針對碳費徵收的初步構想，可能採三級費率，包含優惠費率兩級及一般費率。請問如果從300元起跳，三級費率分別是多少？何時可以確定？","Q1-5：另外，業界希望政府針對進口商也可以同時開徵碳費，以免獨厚進口商，形成不公平競爭，但這牽涉與外國碳費制度的架接，請問目前怎麼規劃？","Q1-6：針對氣候變遷因應法12項子法，已經完成8項，目前攸關碳費徵收最重要的「碳費徵收辦法草案」也已經在去年底提出，請問是否需要經過審議委員會審查？預定何時會正式公告實施？","建議：淨零減碳是國際產業發展方向，推動氣候變遷因應法，可以說是環境部未來最重要的任務，而最具體的就是碳費與碳稅的徵收，希望政府可以循序漸進推動，逐步協助企業成功淨零轉型。","議題二：頭份市公所興建資源回收貯存場","苗栗縣頭份市是人口稠密區，資源回收量逐年增加，在110就年已達到30,000公噸，但都是採取露天貯存，因此亟需新建資源回收貯存場。","目前市公所已經找到用地，並完成興辦事業、水土保持及用地變更等事宜，但因為水土保持計畫已經在去年4月核定，必須在剩下的2年內開工，否則就會失去效力。所以有時程上的壓力；同時在經費方面仍有1.3億的缺口。","建議：請環境部全力協助該市公所推動本案！","議題三、資源循環促進法立法進度","環境部資源循環署目前正研擬「資源循環促進法」，計畫推動徵收「資源循環促進費」，以補貼因使用再生原料產品而影響競爭力之業者，落實資源循環。","Q3-1：請問資源循環促進法目前立法進度為何？徵收資源循環促進費的對象大約是那些產業？","Q3-2：政府大力推動將適燃廢棄物做成固體再生燃料（SRF），目前每年有20萬公噸SRF進入工業鍋爐，引發廢氣管理問題；同時還有各地陸續冒出來的小型SRF製造廠，會逸散廢氣，讓附近的住家抱怨連連。請問部長目前針對使用SRF的工業鍋爐及SRF製造廠商的污染管理問題，相關污染防制法規修法的進度為何？","建議：本席支持環境部提升事業廢棄物的循環再利用，希望相關法規及政策持續進步，但是針對SRF可能造成新的污染，也應該能具體掌握控管，避免造成新的問題，而成為政策推動的困境。"],["主席：現在做以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於二周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做"},{"start":321.934,"end":337.997,"text":"做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可"},{"start":338.638,"end":340.74,"text":"那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?"},{"start":364.238,"end":383.096,"text":"通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊"},{"start":383.877,"end":411.603,"text":"好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊"},{"start":412.645,"end":417.883,"text":"就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反"},{"start":419.605,"end":442.046,"text":"所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那"},{"start":443.047,"end":443.127,"text":"總統都要"},{"start":466.874,"end":474.207,"text":"通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理"},{"start":475.552,"end":495.016,"text":"當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個"},{"start":498.832,"end":520.602,"text":"但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊"},{"start":521.162,"end":549.319,"text":"不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣"},{"start":551.172,"end":577.695,"text":"我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部"},{"start":579.817,"end":599.352,"text":"農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的"},{"start":601.57,"end":620.606,"text":"有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論"},{"start":622.012,"end":647.817,"text":"因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游"},{"start":648.277,"end":648.737,"text":"好,謝謝陳文的主席"}]}},{"id":"149919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231350fd6e71cfaa5725008cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:43:35 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我們對戰事場事實上是有要求他要做某一些設施包括譬如說裝監視器還有甚至是可以感應他溫度的變化的這些設施事實上是有要求"},{"start":93.379,"end":111.318,"text":"但是這一個案子你們也有到現場去我第一時間就請我們環境部啊稽查大隊嘛南部大隊去然後說有沒有相關的影像啊有沒有照片啊甚至是怎麼起火的當時的影像都沒有都只有在火災事後的現況"},{"start":114.133,"end":135.425,"text":"在當下是沒有任何火災的當下是沒有任何紀錄的欸不過我跟蔡委員報告因為齁嘉義市福祉內這間案件其實他是因為過年期間齁他額外因為過年大家都知道說因為可能是大掃除嘛齁那特別很多的這些這個回收物所以他暫時儲存"},{"start":137.166,"end":151.382,"text":"在那個地方不是不是他也不是過年暫時儲存喔他那裡就是就是就是在做環保品的喔環保品然後他又放好久餒OK說物放好久他不是說過年放而已喔"},{"start":151.983,"end":153.524,"text":"吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":177.678,"end":195.427,"text":"那我要請教部長說因為他把他叫作戰唇場他變得說他法律約束不到他然後所以你說應該要進場應該要有紀錄不然也要入面說有多少入面有多少東西入面都沒有都沒有記錄然後去年也是過年過年之後一星期就廢消今年也過年之後一星期就廢消是不是裡面東西太多我整棟房子都燒了"},{"start":209.847,"end":227.075,"text":"這個聽起來很諷刺可是就是實質發聲阿連續兩年欸是是跟委員報告那他這個資收場的確是場地是不夠大他已經在規劃另外一個比較完整的那個場地那好那我想要請教現在有在規劃那現在燒掉了因為燒掉的空間都出來了他們可以繼續在裡面再放嗎"},{"start":228.731,"end":257.152,"text":"因為都沒有記錄啊本來說一個支收場他可以容量多少的垃圾這個應該是有總量管制的嘛那因為他今年辦會休息都從零開始那還可以再放嗎我覺得應該是那我想在這個館裡面我們會再跟環保局這邊再來我覺得很難想像因為我請我們那天稽查大隊到了現場然後我說你這張也要我看著會倒起來那瞬間的畫面都沒有啊都沒有"},{"start":257.692,"end":279.985,"text":"對啊整個惡臭然後昨天好像嘉義市議會有在議員在諮詢這件事他們還告訴社會大眾說沒那麼吵我可以說沒那麼吵是因為齁都在過年的時候會燒所以都是吹燈泡開風所以都南部的吵啦我們水上中部的吵啦跟他一起沒什麼吵到大概就過年過的吵完啦"},{"start":281.125,"end":303.843,"text":"這個我們真的很難接受那我再用最後一分鐘我要請教一下部長就剛剛講這一塊就是嘉義市過去氛化爐然後現在他要蓋大樓嘛然後照理這個環境影響評估在做環評的時候這個環評是嘉義市政府自己我環評然後環評的時候照理是不是要跟鄰近的居民要有溝通"},{"start":304.583,"end":331.539,"text":"結果他辦了一場公聽會他說以環境影響評估辦法第12條他辦了一場公聽會這場公聽會因為我們覺得自己放在外面那個地方自己沒有人不在臨近我們的水上臨近我們的中部我們那是人口密集的地方所以我主要和陳柏林議員林鄉庭鄉長當時是議員黃榮鈞議員還有水上跟中埔的公所我們一起去公聽會抗議"},{"start":333.716,"end":356.565,"text":"說啊您的嘉義市喔您的擇址的地點離我們嘉義縣太近了我們很不很不高興我們去抗議啊我們去抗議如果我們不去沒問題喔我們去抗議以後他們現在抓到了那個環境影響評估說哦嘉義縣從蔡易餘立委陳柏林議員林祥廷議員黃宗俊議員已經出席公聽會並且表示意見所以跟地方就算溝通完了"},{"start":360.106,"end":378.97,"text":"蔡委員報告我事實上是認同跟支持蔡委員的觀點就是說未來環境部將來在這些環評案子應該去思考以那個不管是魂化爐還是什麼事情發生的的中心周遭的地方都應該拿去考量"},{"start":379.33,"end":383.554,"text":"我支持這種觀點我們剛剛的環評法這個是文化爐可是我現在對這個戰事場連兩年火災沒有相關的影像沒有相關的紀錄我覺得這件事情不對"},{"start":402.568,"end":402.608,"text":"蔡委員"}]}},{"id":"149918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ee6509ede2f210e09acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a652fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:35:26 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12:45:20","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":594,"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:45:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T12:35:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1321,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時35分）主席，本席想邀請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總裁好，現在午安了，你辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國際貨幣基金的報告說，全球已經有將近100個國家正在研擬中央銀行數位貨幣（CBDC），央行也持續在研議，目前你們已經完成第一階段「批發型CBDC可行性技術研究」及第二階段「通用型CBDC試驗計畫」，你們也已經進入意見調查及精進平臺設計工作，並強調你們按部就班「準備中」。但是你過去也曾經說過CBDC不是競賽，不需要搶先發行。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前我們發行的時間表是什麼時候呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我們還在研究的階段，至少還要3年以上。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：至少3年以上，目前是往後推3年？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是往前推。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是往前推的時間，還要3年的時間。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，還是要往前推，就是當我們覺得我們已經滿有信心，普獲大眾的接受；還有資安，剛剛也有講到資安的問題；還有隱私權，就是你拿著這個CBDC，你的交易會不會受到監控等等這些問題；還有我們的CBDC要不要有利息？這些在技術上和理論上都必須要做周延且詳細的研究。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，還包括你要控制它的發行和流通，這兩點也非常重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯，委員講得沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，我們是在進行式中，第一階段和第二階段我們也都按部就班的準備中，我們預估將往前推至少3年以上，就是看情況、視情況。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這也必須要看國際的樣態是如何？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講的和我們的process是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，process是這樣子，但我們還是必須要有所準備，隨時可以上，也隨時可以待命。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，comfortable，我們也覺得……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你之前講過一句話，我覺得這句話滿有智慧的，你說這個不是競賽，也不必要搶先發行，所以你是保守型的進行式中？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們中央銀行不是保守，我們是穩健。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：穩健。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哦！你不保守，你是穩健。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是萬一國際跑得比你快，因為你還要3年以上，我還是希望你要備戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：保守的意思可能是走三步、退兩步。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也不盡然，這是你的解釋，但是我也願意接受你的穩健。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的穩健是很穩健的往前推。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不需要在這邊咬文嚼字，重點是，一旦國際的樣態……因為現在瞬息萬變，我想你有很多套的版本，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我想你的版本應該比武俠小說裡面更多。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講得沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有錯，所以我看透你是保守中的進行式，也是激進派的。"],["楊總裁金龍：可以這麼說。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望能夠跟世界接軌，這個很重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我們來討論你的貨幣政策實現法定目標，但是我們知道，現在光是一個氣候變遷就會影響到整個經濟。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為氣候變遷風險恐衝擊總體經濟穩定及貨幣政策有效性，所以在這樣的情況下，我們似乎看到短期內因為氣候變遷所增加的通膨壓力，包括減碳政策，這些都會增加廠商的成本，甚至歐盟也要開始，我們剛剛也在跟環境部討論，因為歐盟已經提出和訂出課稅的時間表。當然，環境部是明天才要召開碳足跡會議，我們也希望他們加緊腳步，在這樣的情況下，綠色通膨的壓力勢在必行，這對穩定物價將會是一個挑戰，所以政府對於永續發展和溫室氣體減量等這些目標，你評估氣候變遷將對總體經濟和金融體系有何潛在的影響？你又要怎麼協助經濟體順利轉型至永續的綠色經濟？你的版本是什麼呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我覺得委員滿瞭解這個議題的，不過我也要跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是國際議題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我跟委員報告，事實上，金管會和中央銀行各扮演不同的角色，金管會要求每個金融機構都必須要配合，因為實體經濟和金融信用這個部分，它一定要鼓勵企業達到這個目標，就是green deposit。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們要穩定嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們中央銀行有我們的角色，所以我們在2022年的年底，我們也公布了中央銀行因應氣候變遷的策略和措施，而且我們也會一步一步的來協助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在講到的這個一步一步就是本席所提的，因為2020年到目前為止，如我剛才說的是瞬息萬變，所以你們還是要因應，因為這樣的速度太嚇人了。我想你有很多的版本，我們可以放心，請您一定要用心，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題要請問，因為媒體說這個月22號就要公布電費漲價方案，如果真的誠如媒體所說的，我們真的好緊張，我告訴王美花部長，現在學校班班有冷氣，所以電費不能漲；農漁業的電費也不能漲；330度以下的民生用電也不能漲，在這樣的情況下，主計總處也告訴我們，現在物價指數（CPI）已經爆增到3.08%，但是它還沒有加上電價上漲後的這個部分。換句話說，N型走勢將會出現，再加上下個月電價要調漲，哇！這個數字還會再超標，在這樣的情況下，我據聞你3月21日將召開第一季的理監事會，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：屆時會不會因為我國物價上漲而做出升息的手段？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，針對通膨這個議題，中央銀行在下一次的理監事會會很謹慎、周延的來討論，我們3月21日就會有一個結果。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以3月21日很關鍵，我們也很緊張，因為媒體說3月22日政府要宣布調漲電費，但是你開會的時間點卻是在前一天、3月21日，現在大家都睜著眼睛在看，屆時會升息嗎？會嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個3月21日我們就會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會？以你的認知，你們3月21日會不會有升息的動作？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛已經講了，我們會很謹慎、周延的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你個人的看法會不會？當然，這個要由理事會來決定，但是你個人的看法會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這是理事會決定的，所以我不能在這邊講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這要經由理事會來決議，那你個人的方向呢？會不會升息？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我還是沒有辦法在這邊回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是謹慎，還有什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我還是謹慎。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛才講了好幾句。"],["楊總裁金龍：我會謹慎、周延、嚴肅。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：嚴肅？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你這句嚴肅會讓我們百姓擔心死，我們希望要穩定我們的物價，不要讓通膨那麼嚴重。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，當然，這是中央銀行的職責。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要讓民眾好生活，因為國家最基本的就是人民，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望3月21日可以有一個讓人民安心的決議，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾委員不在。","請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡委員不在。","請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議做如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請中央銀行於一週內以書面答復；委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。本次會議議程已進行完畢，如不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理，散會。","散會（12時46分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.18659375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.93284375,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.379093750000003,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.93534375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.39096875,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.57659375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.48721875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.461593750000002,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.249718750000003,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.89909375,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.236593750000004,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.94846875,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.28596875,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.549718750000004,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.71846875000001,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":69.20159375,"end":70.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.07909375,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.40346875,"end":79.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.79909375000001,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.67659375000001,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.23284375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.70784375000001,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.81284375000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.60971875000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.03159375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.02784375000002,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.80346875,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.30096875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.02221875,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.70846875,"end":147.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.65346875,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.42534375,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.50971875000002,"end":151.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.41659375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.56846875000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker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Tahovecahe委員：是這樣的，我是為民請命啦！有鄉親族人跟我陳情，他們被劃設在佳冬戰備跑道、玉泉村炸射靶場的管制區，在面臨一些建築上的問題時才發現原來位在限建區。那我去查什麼時候公告，但公告查不到，所以我就索資。被影響的範圍您應該看到表格了，有9個部落。我索資之後，國防部給我的資料是民國80年這份公文，另外就是附上兩張圖，一是戰備跑道圖，另外一幅是炸射靶場的。我想請問副部長，禁限建管制依據的法令是哪一個法令？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：關於禁限建，委員手上由我們提供的資料就是我們在80年所公布的法的依據。禁限建在當時公告以後，到現在為止，隨著地區的發展，很多……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會作修訂嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：會作修訂。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我查到一項「海岸、山地及重要軍事設施管制區與禁建、限建範圍劃定、公告及管制作業規定」，對嘛？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我也看到它修訂過4次。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最近一次是103年7月1日。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它其實有規定。我們看一下這個規定的第九條第八款，它說管制區設管單位應將公告之限制因素、授權核定高度、高距比、界樁位置、起算點還有高程等相關資料提供給誰呢？地方政府主管建築機關，做為審核申建案之依據，對吧？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。現在我就是想請教一下，根據這個管制作業要點，其實有一幅示意圖；我也看了國防部提供的民國80年戰備跑道圖，看起來劃法是一致的，沒有問題。另外針對炸射靶場，其實按照作業規定也有示意圖，但跟你們提供給我的就長得不太像；我另外找到重要軍事管制區公告示意圖，也是針對那個位置的，劃得也不太一樣。所以我想請教的第一點就是，我其實看到107年11月22日才增加我剛才講的這些鄉，當然包含9個原住民部落。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您可以從地圖上看到，這些部落都靠近山區，對吧？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。","在107年前後，我們發現限建高度也不一樣。我怎麼查出來的？因為我要當柯南嘛！有人想查詢是不是位在環境敏感地區，你要知道，小型露營場也是我任內一直努力，在從前年5月通過公告的，於是很多人就開始查自己是不是位在19項環境敏感地區，結果有人查出自己確實位在管制區。至於回復是什麼呢？八軍團指揮部回復，這個點──就是內圈那個紅點，你有沒有看到？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：看到了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：針對那個內圈、蛋白的第一圈，軍方回復其限建高度是40公尺；我又查到，105年也有人問過這個問題，軍方的回復是告訴它限建高度30公尺；那我們看一下民國80年你們提供的那個圖，中間的蛋黃是禁建區，外圍有限建10米、限建30米、限建40米，愈外圍應該是數值愈高嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是你們112年的回復跟105年的回復是相反的！","我認為你們在112年的回復是正確的，為什麼？因為照理說應該按照你們原來的10米規定，但是因為增加了海拔高度，所以才變成40米。現在我想請教副部長，你看一下我們這個部落，我現在舉出的是海拔最低的南和村，針對南和村你看一下它的海拔，高出來的部分就是整個海拔，最低的地方是海拔138米！但按照你們的規定是限建70米，那我真是不知道當地到底要怎麼蓋房子，因為全村都在你們的規定以下。我想先請教副部長，您有什麼看法？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我跟委員報告，我們為什麼這樣一直修訂其來有自。第一，我們不能影響地方發展，這是第一點；第二個因素我必須跟委員強調，禁限建區域牽涉補償金。有時候我們很為難，我們認為這個地方不是禁限建地區……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我懂，我當然理解。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：但有些部落希望列入，那我們就要監測噪音值，依法去看當地有沒有達到標準。再來，我上次也講得非常清楚，拿豐年機場為例，如果針對下滑道禁限建，我們以前劃的位置在半山腰，那我請問你，半山腰誰會去蓋房子？所以劃在那邊沒有用，但是當地居民……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你有解方嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：居民說他要劃的原因……你懂我的意思嗎？噪音達到標準的，居民要補償金，但基於地方上考量，民意大於個人……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這些人想要蓋房子？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：那我們就去想，用合法的方式降低標準。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝副部長。","我跟您說，其實他們來找我陳情，我在最忙的時候、也就是選舉的時候、去年12月也開了一場協調會，會議的決議內容是：(一)兩周內回復限建範圍圖資重新套繪及修正公告之預定期程。結果沒有，軍方是因為我今天要質詢，昨天才給我那份公告跟那兩張附圖；第二是兩個月內提出空軍佳冬靶場周邊限建限高補償草案。當然，這是你們最忌諱的，也沒有；第三點是空軍司令部派員，會同屏東縣政府至受影響用地範圍辦理現勘，並副知本辦。也沒有。","所以我就是想請教，按照這項管制作業規定第十條第二款，已有建築物或高地阻隔者，經設管單位會勘同意後得核准建築。有這個規定嘛！那副部長能不能要求各設管單位依規定辦理會勘，維護民眾的居住權益？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員，當然沒問題！這是我們的責任。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝、謝謝副部長。我希望未來針對管制範圍高度還是須依規定完成公告，並附完整圖說，可以嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：一定、這一定要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。","第二點就是針對已經有建築物或高地相隔的建築申請一定要會勘，好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要不然縣政府也很困擾啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的、好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：針對這些受管制影響民眾的權益，雖然你很忌諱，但我希望還是要有補償草案。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然是、當然是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最好就是都不需要動到補償啦！好不好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我還有第二個問題，一定要問一下。你們在旭海有一項「屏東S022工程」營區興建案，我跟你說，國內有原基法，而原基法裡有部落諮商同意辦法，重點來了！我簡單地講，現在你們的部會……是國防部還是什麼？是海軍司令部。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對，海軍司令部。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：海軍司令部很好，有去問原民會，原民會就發了一份函請鄉公所認定，鄉公所認定後也認定為關係部落；後來你應該知道，你們的回函竟然說你們不須要遵照這項結果。我唸一下，還是您唸？你們的回函說「本案應非屬興建或擴建之土地開法行為，從而無原住民族基本法第二十一條之適用，亦無從配合貴所進行諮商同意程序認定關係部落」；他們再一次向你們申復，你們又說「再次具申立場如下：本案應非屬……」等等，說法一模一樣啦！那我現在就想問一下，原基法是擺在那邊、束之高閣給人看的嗎？是不用遵照的嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然不是，委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那現在怎麼辦呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我想這個問題就海軍司令部的做法來講，現在涉及兩部不同的法，我認為要經過協調，但我們一定要遵守原住民族基本法，海軍司令部在這方面會再跟委員溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就拜託您。因為部落諮商同意辦法是法律工具喔！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它的精神跟目標與你們所講的敦親睦鄰其實是一致的喔！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：一致的、一致的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以若藐視這套工具，不要講鄉公所不能接受、民眾不能接受，全體原住民族人也會覺得受辱。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這點我們會檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這部分一定要處理，好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝副部長、謝謝主席。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：兩周內要回復喔！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請邱志偉。邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請羅明才。羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請蔡易餘。蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請鍾佳濱。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請翁曉玲。翁曉玲、翁曉玲委員不在。","請顏寬恒。顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、洪申翰委員、葉元之委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩周內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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"我是因為今天要質詢,昨天才給我那個公告跟那兩張副圖。第二個,兩個月內提出空軍加東靶場周邊限建限高補償草案。當然這個是你們最忌諱的,也沒有。第三個,空軍司令部派員會同屏東縣政府致受影響用地範圍辦理限康並複製本辦,也沒有。"},{"start":422.711,"end":437.314,"text":"所以我就是想要請教一下按照我們這個管制作業規定第10條的第二款已有建築物或高地組隔的經社管單位會刊同意後得核准建築有這個規定嗎那副部長你能不能夠要求各社管單位依規定辦理會刊維護民眾的居住權益當然委員沒問題"},{"start":445.316,"end":466.941,"text":"好這個是我們的責任謝謝謝謝部長那我希望未來我們還是要針對管制範圍高度要須依規定完成公告並附完整圖說可以嗎這一定要對那第二個就是說已經有建築物或高地相隔的建築申請一定要去會堪好不好是的要不然縣政府也很困擾啊是的那針對這些受管制的影響民眾的權益我希望"},{"start":469.594,"end":493.207,"text":"雖然您很忌諱啦還是要有一個補償草案當然是當然是那最好就是都不需要動盜補償啦是的好不好謝謝委員謝謝您那我還有一個第二個問題一定要問一下齁因為你們在旭海有一個屏東S022工程要營區的興建嘛那我跟您說我們有一個原基法那原基法裡面有一個部落諮商同意辦法好現在重點來了我簡單的講現在我們的這個你們的部會這個是什麼"},{"start":499.111,"end":514.252,"text":"國防部嗎還是什麼海軍司令部你們的海軍司令部很好有去問原民會那原民會就發了一個函說請相公所認定那相公所呢就認定之後呢也認定關西部落"},{"start":514.913,"end":519.376,"text":"然後呢結果你們後來你應該知道結果回來你們竟然說你們不需要遵照這個我唸一下還是您唸來你們的回函說本案因非屬興建或擴建之土地開發行為從而無原住民原基法第21條適用亦無從配合櫃所進行諮商同意程序認定關係部落他們又再一次跟你們申復你們又說再次申復立場就是本案因屬非屬登登登登登"},{"start":544.431,"end":544.611,"text":"海軍司令部副局長"},{"start":565.012,"end":580.425,"text":"這個現在是兩個不同的法我認為這是要經過協調但是我們一定要遵守這個原住民的基本法我是認為我們海軍司令在這方面跟委員在座溝通好那我就是拜託您因為我覺得部落智商同意辦法它是法律工具喔是是是"},{"start":581.206,"end":595.982,"text":"他的精神跟目標跟你們所講的敦青木林其實是一致的所以藐視這套工具其實地方不要講鄉公所不能接受民眾也不能接受全體原住民族人也會覺得受辱這個我們會來檢討那這個部分一定要處理好不好謝謝副部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231359f90120e5dd30c8c9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6f9bbaa56767decb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:27:43 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bubble那次的網路泡沫是不是很類似？投資人要冷靜的思考，不能一窩蜂。"],["洪委員孟楷：總裁，也有人說這是網紅行銷。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為網紅行銷出去之後，很有可能那些不曉得的人都聽到這個有多好、多好，結果就跳下去了，我覺得這可能有一個……我記得金管會對於這個行銷，就是這個網紅是否有和金融機構勾結，它好像有做這樣的……我覺得金管會做這樣的事情是對的。"],["洪委員孟楷：也應該要做一些調配和控管。但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：總裁，我再就教一下，你覺得今年（2024年）ETF會不會再飆新高？因為我剛才講到2023年有3.8兆。"],["楊總裁金龍：為什麼現在市場這麼的瘋狂？因為現在有一個議題，就是美國要調降利率，你看，現在美國股票市場漲，包括我們的科技股、日本和臺灣也都在漲，現在好像都非常樂觀，所以我剛剛也有提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你才會示警，才會說不要有羊群效應？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：總裁，我最後請教，本席有看到新聞報導，日本央行的貨幣寬鬆政策是包括買進ETF。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們這邊呢？我們會不會考慮？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有，我們當然不會，央行從來都不會進入市場，日本是非常特殊的國家，因為它通縮，你看，它一直進場去買ETF和股票，日本政府的公債有很大一部分都是它買去的，ETF有很大一部分也都是他們買去的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們跟日本央行最大的不同就是，我們不會考量購買ETF，最主要的理由是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我們沒有通縮，我們現在反而是2%以上，對不對？所以央行一直以來都沒有採行QE的貨幣政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們未來也不會考慮？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們未來不會考慮去購買ETF？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，瞭解，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.68471875,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.21096875,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.922843750000002,"end":16.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.22659375,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.817218750000002,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.74909375,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.359718750000003,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":36.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.52346875,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.767843750000004,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.15596875,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.80909375,"end":51.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.697843750000004,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.157218750000006,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.13971875,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.65784375,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.24221875,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.56284375,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.57971875,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.95909375000001,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.91659375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.45659375000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.19909375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.07159375,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":98.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.56409375000001,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.68159375,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":125.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.56846875000001,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.15471875000001,"end":137.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.46096875,"end":138.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":147.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.06409375,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.38346875000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.29471875000002,"end":148.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":156.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.44909375,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.90409375000002,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.70409375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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他自己覺得那個損失不大兩三萬塊錢 他沒有報案可是我身邊也有一些朋友基本上一被詐騙的金額數十萬甚至上百萬都有那這是在以前其實坦白講是都沒有發生的事情以前就是我們聽到詐騙也是很嚴重以前電話詐騙對不對"},{"start":132.105,"end":153.073,"text":"但是你真的要身邊聽到很具體被詐騙的個案的這種情況現在真的是嚴重的非常非常多所以因此這種情況之下我覺得真的是不管是政府還有我們包括我們的所有的社會各界以及包括我們立法院其實都要到痛定思痛來面對詐騙這個既是國恥我都覺得已經是國安問題了"},{"start":157.134,"end":164.539,"text":"他詐騙的演變的狀況甚至演變到之前包括清普跟淡海那邊還發生集團式的"},{"start":165.626,"end":165.906,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制"},{"start":195.626,"end":196.446,"text":"法律的力量能夠所觸及的"},{"start":219.44,"end":219.78,"text":"公聽委員．羅智強公聽委員．羅智強"},{"start":239.261,"end":239.401,"text":"詐欺犯罪"},{"start":259.369,"end":276.23,"text":"我實際上也在透過質詢也希望我們的政府機關有除了說在執法上以外那麼也能夠去精確化包括說因為現在看到很多詐騙犯都是到海外去我們一邊是我們的詐騙犯是到海外"},{"start":278.211,"end":282.773,"text":"通過海外去向全世界包括台灣來去行騙像這種情況實際上我覺得我們自己的政府機關我們的司法單位在掌握資訊上其實也要好好的去落實很多資訊包括到底潛逃的人數滯留境外的人數包括我們現在海外一些詐騙的情況"},{"start":306.545,"end":306.565,"text":"羅智強議員"}]}},{"id":"149913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135aa17e8d4e0fb88b43bab39d7bda6ec6df8ba9b0039caa7a6b4272b109c97fcf25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:23:24 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但做的過程中還是需要精進或加強的地方本席也建議"},{"start":152.403,"end":152.823,"text":"網路面 其實剛剛提到"},{"start":171.971,"end":172.111,"text":"公聽委員：李坤城"},{"start":187.216,"end":187.856,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":213.697,"end":213.857,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":231.904,"end":258.63,"text":"這個新興的偵查工具剛剛相信有很多的這個學者專家還有委員也都有提到所以這個新興的偵查工具那我們是不是要有一些法源上面依據那我們希望這一個能夠抓到罪犯但是又要保障基本的人權那所以在這個有關於這個科技偵查法這方面我們也希望說是不是有相關的法源依據能夠提出來那所以說在未來在偵查的時候"},{"start":259.19,"end":259.51,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":280.066,"end":280.466,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":300.76,"end":301.501,"text":"李委員：李坤城"}]}},{"id":"149912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149912","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353310853218d56a2a9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a61c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:19:17 - 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我們就是說我們的中央銀行的一個升息跟美國的升息是不大一樣的"},{"start":50.342,"end":51.403,"text":"所以政策利率到現在還不是一個頂點"},{"start":79.234,"end":83.384,"text":"呃這個就要看我們下我們下一次我們下禮拜四我們會理監事會"},{"start":84.758,"end":111.472,"text":"所以如果是漸進溫和的貨幣警訊社長期它是應該是要維生的對不對那現在有可能我這樣問你是不是還沒有到零點我說就是說這種利益的東西陳委員講的也沒有錯啦很很對我覺得你慢慢的慢慢的那也有可能啊就上去啊但是也有可能就是說我上去了以後呢我要停在那邊然後呢我要停很久"},{"start":112.312,"end":112.973,"text":"另外這個所謂豪宅的門檻你會把它調降嗎?"},{"start":137.233,"end":161.466,"text":"好載的門檻是不是要調降好像媒體有報了說央行這次理事會會討論我跟委員報告就是說我們的選擇性信用管制這個措施我們每次的那個理監事會都會討論我們也都新聞稿都講得很清楚我們是滾動式的檢討那滾動式的檢討認為就是說"},{"start":165.888,"end":193.062,"text":"有可能的時候呢有必要的時候呢我們還是可以實施啊那如果你們這次理事會做成調降門檻的決議那他的政策發動原因為何不過我雖然我這麼說啦但是委員你也不要把它誤解說我一定就要調降你還沒說啊我也不會我也不會說但是呢我要跟委員報告一件事就是說"},{"start":194.343,"end":198.287,"text":"財政部他調降有他調降的道理財政部的"},{"start":210.402,"end":211.082,"text":"對於這個豪宅的門檻呢"},{"start":235.335,"end":261.502,"text":"我還是根據我自己本身對房地產的情況還有貸款的情況我會做檢討所以大家都覺得就是說那個財政部調降下來中央銀行是要follow他好像也不一定是這樣子但是我們還是要強調的中央銀行要調整這個的時候我們會根據我們自己的"},{"start":263.706,"end":266.047,"text":"要必要性正當性能夠解決問題"},{"start":284.079,"end":288.461,"text":"另外一個議題請教在你們這個全球經濟前景的不確定因素裡面包括對中國這個經濟成長放緩特別講到這個他們的房地產的這個低迷啊對所以"},{"start":311.525,"end":325.702,"text":"國有銀行不管是公股銀行還是這個私人銀行在中國若有任何的投資啊這個這些可能會面臨到中國經濟下行或消費不振所說的影響有沒有相關的曝險的這個"},{"start":328.542,"end":352.752,"text":"你說我們台灣據我瞭解因為這個是整個在追蹤是那個金管會不過我據我瞭解金管會都publish他都會publish就是說我們的put選有多少不過我記得我記得我們金管會都認為就是說在他的put選不高都是在可控制的範圍之內"},{"start":354.042,"end":383.148,"text":"所以你理解是這個金管會有相關的警示作用對對對對對目前不管是經濟中國經濟下行消費不振我國有銀行在中國的曝險也在可控制的範圍嗎是是是還是有控制另外你提到經濟零碎化跟供應鏈重組的問題這對台灣是利還是弊啊對台灣是利對台灣整體的經貿利益經貿實力這是利還是弊我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":385.595,"end":385.755,"text":"﹚邱志偉﹚"},{"start":412.436,"end":426.168,"text":"但是呢 因為這是一個長期的過程嘛 所以他在調整調整的過程當中臺灣是不是到最後是利大利弊 這個我先來問問我到目前為止我們還是沒有受到影響"},{"start":432.637,"end":458.626,"text":"另外這個當然主權財務基金這部分那當然已經有很多討論我再半分鐘這個當然我也覺得要用專法會比較好啦那央行一貫的政策就是用專法嘛那最主要是錢的來源怎麼來你要對於四大基金那四大基金現在都有主管機關在個別在處理你沒有必要再把四大基金再整合成一個主權基金我是這樣看法總裁你同意嗎"},{"start":459.726,"end":488.786,"text":"對啦,不過我的委員在這樣子講我基本上呢,委員也有委員的考量不過中央銀行的立場我就說要有主權基金的話一定要在中央銀行之外就另外另一個中央銀行那他的來源,他的那個他的籌資來源應該是要政府去籌資是政府的錢,不是中央銀行的錢你沒有想到外匯存底對對對,這是我們一貫的立場"},{"start":489.806,"end":489.826,"text":"謝謝總裁"}]}},{"id":"149911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313579173d1f72d7f748d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6a4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:17:39 - 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我知道 現在這個事件已經針對司法證據所有的證據只要檢察官提出來 我們都會提供所以都有提供 是的再來本席也要請教 我們這個海巡艦艇"},{"start":245.516,"end":269.897,"text":"我們台灣的海巡艦艇因為數量或頓速我們都遠遠不及大陸的我想國防部很清楚所以國防部對海巡有沒有這種即時馳援的機制應該是有的嗎當然是有是的那所以本席在這裡主要就是要特別的來提醒跟強調我們千萬不能讓我們的海巡艦艇被對岸的"},{"start":271.281,"end":271.341,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"},{"start":295.113,"end":317.632,"text":"海軍的艦艇都在旁邊協助海巡署在執行這樣的業務所以在合作上面來講我們能夠在今天台海的狀況縱使中共的船艦每天進入到我的禁限制水域甚至於到達我們20海里我們都是採取相關的行動準則來抵禦這些中共的灰色地帶衝突升高"},{"start":318.237,"end":326.921,"text":"好 所以做最好的互相支援的準備那再來本席想請教我們現在兩岸局勢到底有多緊張報委員 這個我必須要跟委員報告事實上我們現在兩岸的局勢在全球來看都是在可控制的範圍裡面那就國軍的立場來看我們就跟我們部長所強調的我們要一定要料敵從寬 欲敵從嚴這是我們國軍的立場 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啦事實上前幾波是沒有這樣的一個現象啦我只是說有些時候我們會就是說是要考慮遭援一點或就是說比較保守一點所以我才做這樣的一個解釋那不然事實上我剛剛在強調的就是說事實上如果說你到2.2"},{"start":94.564,"end":108.449,"text":"二點二事實上呢二點二也是在2%左右啦而且也是說二點四九的下來就是二點二嘛假設說這樣子說啦假設我沒有就說是二點二啦但是我中央銀行呢我是比較單比較"},{"start":110.049,"end":127.345,"text":"比較要小心的就是說我們的物價從1.97到2.95到2.49到今年如果說再突破2%的話那很顯然的就是說這個可能就是說在很長的時間都是超過2%這個我們要小心"},{"start":129.387,"end":143.946,"text":"通膨高利率就要高這個就是一定的嘛這個是道理我不要就說是就理論上是這樣子就實務上也是這樣子通膨高利率就要高這個是無庸置疑的"},{"start":144.346,"end":160.05,"text":"所以美國他們這個月它的物價本來預期會下跌可是它又好像有一點緩步的上升所以使得他們預計可能要降碼的這個FED要降息的這樣子的腳步會趨緩"},{"start":163.812,"end":178.233,"text":"對於台灣而言我們也沒有降息的空間嗎所以這是你早上的我剛剛也是在講對沒有錯就是說在6月底以前我們怎麼會有考慮到就是說要降息呢不會那如果有假呢昨天"},{"start":178.813,"end":201.505,"text":"昨天主席講他說的他預期今年度的3.43%的經濟成長率是因為他把油價設算成82左右我剛還問了中油他們預估今年的油價是80那目前是80有可能就在於75到95的這個區間那我不曉得央行這個"},{"start":206.208,"end":229.504,"text":"對,我們事實上在我們的報告裡面我們也提到了因為這個央行不會自己去預測那個油價是會多少我們也都是引用國外的權威的那個什麼的機構那基本上我們預測好像也是差不多超81塊左右平均一年也不會就是說比去年高事實上跟去年低一點點而已"},{"start":230.325,"end":253.214,"text":"跟去年實際的石油的價格是稍微低一點點不過還是提高啦那個尾巴的衝突是啦那因為這個預測我跟委員報告就預測是很難就是說現在預測81塊就是81塊也不是這個是參考價值我說的只是參考值而已啦一樣的不是石油價格是這樣子"},{"start":254.915,"end":262.186,"text":"實際上你對CPI或是對那個ZDP的預測都是參考價值而已因為後面的那個資訊會慢慢的進來那什麼時候我們這個3.43%不會達成"},{"start":268.383,"end":295.014,"text":"經濟成長率GDP 4.3我跟委員報告因為他認為就是說我們的出口會好我記得好像他就是說預測出口會成長6.1他在這樣的一個前提之下6.1除了就是說6.1他出口好還有另外他就說他的進口可能會比較下跌一點"},{"start":295.894,"end":308.106,"text":"他他的那個輸出這個部分那所以呢他就做了這樣的一個那假設說出口沒有他這樣子的好的話那可怕恐怕我們的經濟增長力也不會那麼高"},{"start":308.857,"end":338.189,"text":"所以還是要看出口嗎?出口好,你的投資才會好所以油跟電對於這個GDP的影響性就你看起來就是依他那個估計起來都不會影響太大基本上呢油價是比較不會影響到我們的GDP啦油價呢也比較不會影響到我們今年的那個什麼物價的水準啦但是呢"},{"start":338.949,"end":356.917,"text":"我們的我們的經濟部我們的台電之所以要漲價是因為他虧損他虧損他要彌補他以前的他動動要凍結的部分他現在要慢慢的要上升所以呢也就是說你直接的效果就電價上漲的時候對CPI他馬上會有直接的影響另外呢"},{"start":360.558,"end":380.448,"text":"我們的企業他因為當價 當價漲的時候呢他的生產成本也會提高生產成本提高的時候呢他會廣價給這個消費者那出口數字也有可能會影響嗎那出口的話基本上是比較是比較比較不會了還有看到你的外匯啊是不是"},{"start":381.988,"end":406.243,"text":"是是是還有對於就是各國都在研究數位貨幣是對這也是你有做好準備嗎對於我們的治安對因為我們已經沒有辦法仰賴數位部了嗎現在數位部好像都沒有就是infunctional可是你的專家學者是我們很care的一個"},{"start":407.083,"end":435.503,"text":"對,治安的問題呢?你們央行內部的研究對於治安的問題那唯有治安的問題解決了數位貨幣才有可能實行這個我也覺得委員講得很有道理就是說治安這個一定就是說不能就是說央行的一個系統被駭客進去了以後我們的CPTC整個受到很大的影響那這個支付會亂起來啊"},{"start":436.303,"end":441.966,"text":"喔這個也是我們非常謹慎的地方也是在這裡啊那你們已經做了沙盒的那個我們這個都有在注意什麼時候可以至於我剛才也講了就是說至於什麼時候一定要保守喔"},{"start":453.513,"end":473.843,"text":"什麼時候你可以做好準備?因為其實各國都在準備了嗎?什麼時候?我們都說他在準備他在做研究但是基本上中央銀行也是一樣的但是我們是很謹慎的但是我們的步伐不會比他們慢我們的步伐也許都比他們快"},{"start":474.571,"end":490.02,"text":"好,主席已經站起來了。他比較喜歡比特幣,他不喜歡數位貨幣。謝謝。好,謝謝。接著請邱智偉,邱偉文資訊"}]}},{"id":"149909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135b6ba995336c91270d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a63dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:04:18 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面部長之前在接受媒體的這個詢問的時候你也提到說就是會非常的擔憂那我想知道說這個國安局的情資他是說中共基本上還是追求非武力統一那依照國安局的情資跟國防部的情資你們的看法是一致的嗎?"},{"start":56.724,"end":85.97,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為這個問題就講說因為層次專業不同我們講說這個文道有先後嘛,數位有專攻嘛我們考量這個層次,不講哪個層次高低問題這個範圍,軍事的考量一定是有這個爭後以後依據爭後,我們去追,去設定可能的行動但可能就又礙於我們有嚴格的一個做法就是說往最壞的地方來打算"},{"start":86.73,"end":109.188,"text":"所以會有不同的一個見解但並不代表他的錯了我是對的或者我的錯他對的所以因為各層級不同啊範圍領域不同所以我們做我們的表達但人家要考量的還有政治因素啊其他環境因素就我們沒有在軍事考量當中沒有把這個拉進去所以會有不同的結果"},{"start":109.468,"end":111.049,"text":"我們因為每天不管是空情、海情"},{"start":125.959,"end":150.317,"text":"還有一連串還有他地面部隊訓練的狀況我們大家都有瞭解瞭解依據當前的狀況來研判的話我覺得他是不會停的不管做一個戰備警訓或聯合的一個警訓他不會停的聯合這個戰備他可以利用這個時候做一些好像這個海空之間的演訓或跟地面部隊又怎麼樣一個演練"},{"start":152.658,"end":179.789,"text":"這我們都要掌控,掌控狀況我們覺得在這個軍事方面我們還是要注意對,因為部長的職責嘛,就是料底要從嚴那從嚴去做,然後就是因為我們也知道說部長都睡不著,可是不是只是睡不著部長是直接進入到指揮所是有因應的作為所以這點我們也是非常肯定啊也聽說部長旗都一直都不會落下來就是表示花很多時間在應處這個部分我們是非常肯定的但是我還是要強調,國安局他們是想"},{"start":180.469,"end":186.095,"text":"我相信這個部分的這樣子的說法跟部長的這樣的看法還是基本上吻合的我這樣理解可以說當然說他的"},{"start":199.289,"end":220.385,"text":"你對敵情的這個偵測當然照樣跟過去比較起來是不同但是整體的情勢判斷你會是怎麼看對我覺得認同因為我們有氣達目標跟可達目標氣達的就講希望他不要有任何戰事發生這大家共同的但可不可以的的確沒有戰事發生這我軍中的立場我們不能暴力啊絕對不會"},{"start":221.886,"end":228.511,"text":"所以部長的這個作為把擔憂的行為化為動作直接去這個指揮所進駐啊等等的這些做法我們都是肯定的但是我還是強調說在於國防跟國安情資的這個風險溝通風險溝通裡面"},{"start":248.565,"end":268.624,"text":"對外還是基本上要有一定的邏輯性跟一致性因為臺灣是一個民主自由的社會所以我們的媒體會解讀部長的每一句話那有可能會放大那這個時候對於這個風險的溝通那當然就是非常重要那通常這個在我記得在疫情期間CDC他們有一整套"},{"start":269.616,"end":269.836,"text":"：陳冠廷：陳冠廷"},{"start":294.034,"end":317.239,"text":"提出回應的話那甚至會利用我們的回應來去影響民眾對整個整體安全的認知的看法那我是覺得就是會令我們比較擔心所以在這邊還是希望在溝通的部分在對於民眾的溝通的部分跟國安局還有其他的這些評估的機關的一致性還是非常重要的那第二部分想要請教這個部長關於"},{"start":318.539,"end":342.94,"text":"空飄氣球跟臺灣領空的問題我想這個問題其實是常常會出現那在美國也有類似的問題出現我想請教一下中國的這些空飄氣球的實際功能是什麼是單純的氣象氣球還是有什麼樣特殊的資訊能力嗎就是說他們的我們有必要強調這個東西對我們國家的影響嗎就是他實際的能力為何我可以回報空飄氣球這個事件"},{"start":344.261,"end":346.944,"text":"在某個階段會有比較多的空飄氣球因為空飄氣球的用途有很廣"},{"start":359.218,"end":373.652,"text":"有碳空的還有偵測的等等但我們到目前為止我們所了解大家都碳空所以碳空是什麼測量在某高度外上面的溫度或它這個氣流等等它以便於它將來"},{"start":374.793,"end":387.808,"text":"在武器裝備運用方面會有什麼影響他要找這個參數但我們不幫他來解讀也不報得很樂觀在這個當中可能夾雜一些偵測的作用這我們絕對不會去講說去否定"},{"start":391.733,"end":409.973,"text":"但是我們有應應的方法,第一個原則講它已經預約到我們上空了,我們只要有能力的話當然要把它處理掉,但目前它的高度都在我們射程範圍內,也不可能用飛彈去射擊它,但我們有個作為,除了掌控以外我們會告知我們國軍的軍機,還有民航局,"},{"start":412.856,"end":433.839,"text":"在這個航道上飛行的不管是軍機也好民機也好不要特別注意我想這個是我們跟民航局已經達成協議而且目前是在做的相關的預警等等其實我之所以問這個實際上的威脅我們希望說如果他並沒有辦法造成實質的威脅的話那我們派潛戰機等等或者是直接把他擊落等等這個就變成"},{"start":435,"end":435.1,"text":"其實這幾個禮拜"},{"start":450.552,"end":477.86,"text":"我想大家都很針對這個金門的事件來去有各種不同的看法那今天又有很不幸的有漁船翻霧的事件桌美舞署長他今天是有談到說是在禁縣制水域那陳玉珍委員他是說是在這個我們直接用他說的話是在金門海域之外是屬於中方治理的海域所以到底是在我們的管轄控制的範圍嗎"},{"start":479.326,"end":481.348,"text":"其實我有看到這次的專報內容有提到說支援海巡海域執法的部分"},{"start":508.729,"end":527.517,"text":"部長其實在多次的訪問都有提到不以直接介入為原則那我們也是很肯定就是海巡對他們的海警這是不讓事件升級的一個方式可是部長有提到說國軍會隨時保持監控但是如果這個如果說有需要協助的話那有可能會有"},{"start":528.632,"end":530.392,"text":"請問具體的方式是什麼?應該是說我們的了解是不是就是會以監控為主"},{"start":551.457,"end":554.738,"text":"對,謝謝部長,因為這是一個很困難的工作,因為我想當然對於保護"},{"start":579.204,"end":602.972,"text":"我國的這一個海空域我們國軍有它重要的責任在可是同時因為兩岸的特殊情況我們又不能夠讓事件升級所以我們能夠使用的手段跟方式其實是很被限制的所以這方面還是希望說至少在能做的部分在輔助的部分還是盡量提供海巡署更多的能量"},{"start":603.592,"end":605.993,"text":"最後部長我想要來跟你討論一下這個士兵的待遇軍事待遇的部分"},{"start":625.02,"end":648.268,"text":"我們本辦公室也有提出相關的提案就是希望能夠增加這一個國軍的福利但是我們也從國防部提供來的資料來看過去5年軍事官還有士兵的流營率我們看起來是士兵的部分還有士官的部分那這個都是相對比較低一點的所以"},{"start":649.045,"end":672.569,"text":"如果在軍事觀的這個部分我們希望提高的這種福利跟待遇的話我們還是會以基層的官兵為主所以說對於這些想要留營的對於這些有志於軍旅生活的特別是這個志願的這些我們非常尊重那我們也是希望說能夠增加他的留營率但是說對於基層士兵他的待遇跟福利"},{"start":673.129,"end":691.579,"text":"我們是希望說國防部有沒有什麼經濟的作為或提升的方案如果有的話或者是你們甚至可以提出相關的方案我們都很願意來去協助我必須要強調是基層的是軍官因為只有他們有足夠的時間留在軍中的話他們才能夠經過歷練他繼續往上升中校上校甚至是"},{"start":692.119,"end":695.983,"text":"是,很感謝委員對這個關切而且也很鼓舞一下,我們要改變的話委員會支持事實上我要跟委員報告,國軍巡弄待遇,他看來講本縫還有某些是固定的"},{"start":717.682,"end":732.321,"text":"但是有很多工作角色因為你的單位不同或你負責的職長不同他會有很多專業方面加急但我們當然絕對不以此為滿意了但我們要考量要提高他的薪俸待遇的話這是一個整體的問題"},{"start":733.382,"end":751.266,"text":"我們假如有定案或有建議我會跟委員報告比例上面還是麻煩部長就是針對特別依照基層的會高一點向領的話盡量是頂哨的提升這樣子的話希望可以提高想要留在軍中的這些軍人票謝謝是謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135762569cdcef7f4039acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a63af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:57:28 - 12:10:49","影片長度":"00:13:21","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":801,"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:10:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:57:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時57分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁你好。我看總裁是很重要啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝，謝謝召委的誇獎。"],["羅委員明才：中華民國就靠你啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，您太……"],["羅委員明才：總裁身體狀況好不好啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：還很好。"],["羅委員明才：我看你蠻硬朗的，一般官員在這邊如果坐一、兩個鐘頭，有的就「離離落落」。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員是話中有話。"],["羅委員明才：看你還是目光炯炯有神，希望你一棒接一棒，可以接續彭淮南總裁以後，持續擦亮中央銀行的招牌。"],["楊總裁金龍：這一點……"],["羅委員明才：總裁名字是楊金龍，剛好今年是龍年啦！the year of dragon，所以希望你這個龍不但在中華民國可以屹立不搖，更可以是東方升起的一條巨龍。","講到這個，我就跟你討論「匹夫無罪，懷璧其罪」，一般人可能聽不懂啦！但我知道你聽得懂，在現在世界發展潮流情況之下，比特幣、數字貨幣變成未來必須的一個趨勢啊！你想想看，如果在6、7年前，本席在這裡質詢的時候，拜託中央銀行趕快發行新臺幣的數字貨幣，你那時候做的話，搞不好今天就沒有比特幣了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！比特幣還會存在的。"],["羅委員明才：新臺幣的數字貨幣在國際有機會可以閃閃發光……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過……"],["羅委員明才：已經錯失了6、7年的機會，我們聽到很多虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人，他說匹夫無罪啊！你剛剛說比特幣是個商品，它沒有罪啊！它如果不好，為什麼Elon Musk要持有比特幣？如果它不好的話，為什麼美國那麼多上市公司的財報上面有寫比特幣？它不好的話，為什麼美國政府手上持有比特幣？更甚者，美國的SEC也通過了11檔ETF虛擬貨幣比特幣的項目，本末倒置嘛！","你知道這變成是一個世代差距的問題，年輕人踏入這一塊，他們對這個是充滿期待與希望的，假設6、7年前中華民國政府不逃避，用誠懇認真的態度來面對，好好把法令規章管理好，你想想看，6、7年前所有投入虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人手上的資產，當初1個比特幣大概是6,000塊美金，現在已經漲到7萬2,000塊美金了，總裁，我們是不是間接地讓這些年輕人喪失了一個可以讓資產大幅增加的機會？這些年輕人很多都是臺大資工系畢業的，都是高材生，很多在臺灣待不下去，就流落到新加坡，跑到香港，跑到杜拜去。","你如果說比特幣它是犯罪的，你就全面禁止啊！可是它不是啊！它是一個商品，所以我們不應該本末倒置，真正有問題的是詐騙的這些人，是金管會要好好地把所有的審查制度、法令規章，應該把它做好才對嘛！這個不要混淆，所以本席在幾年前，不同的時間，同樣的地點，我曾經建議央行，你要不要酌予買入一些比特幣當作我們的外匯存底，你那時候如果買六千多塊，現在是漲10倍耶！你知道中華民國有多少人嗷嗷待哺就是要靠中央銀行，去年中央銀行繳庫多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們去年繳1,800億元。"],["羅委員明才：1,800億元，沒有一個單位那麼厲害的，所以當大家在講說台電的電費開始要漲10%，總裁，你知道民間小老百姓的心裡是多麼地害怕，已經沒有什麼資產了，薪水沒有漲，物價一直要飆漲，電如果再漲10%以後，那要怎麼生活啊？所以總裁有沒有辦法讓央行多賺一點，台電的1,000億元你來出？"],["楊總裁金龍：我簡單地說明，剛剛委員有講到，中央銀行要不要來投資比特幣，你說它以前是多少，然後漲到多少……"],["羅委員明才：6,000漲到7萬2啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是我跟你報告，中央銀行還是跟以前所說的一樣，我們不會投資比特幣，因為你說比特幣從這邊漲到那邊去的時候，委員有沒有想到，如果你買到高點，當它跌下來的時候，我們就虧大啦！當然委員講得沒有錯，它現在又漲上去了，但是目前的7.2、7.3萬，這不是它的最高點，它的最高點我記得好像有碰到8萬。"],["羅委員明才：請問總裁，比特幣以後可能會漲到多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不敢說，往後……"],["羅委員明才：有人講說到70萬美金耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，現在目前是說到10萬。不過我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：總裁，Elon Musk是傻瓜嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：它從8萬跌下來，然後慢慢、慢慢再上去，然後再下來，然後再上去，這表示什麼？它的波動都非常大。"],["羅委員明才：是，總裁，那Elon Musk……"],["楊總裁金龍：Musk，好，我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：他為什麼要買比特幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我記得Musk那時候也很瘋狂，他也說他買了多少，而且他甚至說你用比特幣可以買我的Tesla，他也是這樣子說啊！但是後來有沒有？後來他也沒有啊！"],["羅委員明才：現在還沒有，不代表以後不會有。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是沒有啊！後來Musk他也賣掉啦！"],["羅委員明才：其實總裁，我知道你保守的心態，我可以理解。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想中央銀行做裡面的……"],["羅委員明才：中華民國所有的官員一般都是非常地保守，但是我們期待希望的是臺灣能有更多遠高、遠大的理想，可以帶領臺灣往前走、往前衝，你都不要，為什麼新加坡它要？你都不行，為什麼日本行？所以央行……"],["楊總裁金龍：新加坡要，但是新加坡它的GIC沒有投資，GIC沒有投資哦！"],["羅委員明才：央行大概有幾個字，你參考一下，就是央行大概保守有餘、開創不足。這幾年來，當然央行有好的地方，但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：我虛心地接受委員評論。"],["羅委員明才：我一直期待希望的就是可以有大破大立大格局，才不枉你的名字叫做楊金龍，金的要像一條龍一樣，飛龍在天啊！而不是龍做不成，變成小蛇，那大家對你的期望就會落空。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我接受委員的……"],["羅委員明才：這是第一個。第二個所提的，就是本席也是在這邊建議，還有在文園也建議過，當黃金每盎司1,250的時候，本席曾經建議總裁，你要多少買一點黃金，結果有沒有買？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有買。"],["羅委員明才：沒買就很可惜，現在每盎司已經漲到2,200塊了。本席在考量的是，美國不斷地印鈔票，大量地印、印、印，請問總裁，美國印了那麼多的鈔票，無限制在印，以後會不會有什麼影響？你手上的外匯存底，你還要放美金嗎？會不會通膨？美元會不會貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！所以通膨，某些國家就是因為它本身的通膨很高，所以它才要握有黃金；有些國家是因為美國制裁它，所以它才要多買一些黃金，像Russia，Russia就都買黃金啊！中國大陸也是怕人家制裁，所以它就把外匯存底轉為黃金，但是臺灣呢？","另外，委員說黃金從多少漲到多少，我給你一個數據，我們有計算，從民國78年到目前113年2月底，黃金平均的報酬率是4.7%，因為它只是capital gain，所以就只計算capital gain，它的平均報酬率是4.7%。美國的公債是多少？5%。不只是這樣子哦！黃金的波動度多少？15%。美國公債的波動度多少？4.6%。你看看它的起伏，你不要只有看到它現在……"],["羅委員明才：所以總裁，你會繼續買黃金，還是買美國公債？"],["楊總裁金龍：就黃金來講，中央銀行如果說要孳息的話，黃金沒有利息啊！黃金只有靠capital gain，那capital gain它是上上下下。"],["羅委員明才：因為時間關係，最後要問總裁，你以後會不會考慮買比特幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不會考慮買比特幣，但是我們會研究是否要買黃金，這樣可以嗎？"],["羅委員明才：那你手上為什麼要持股台糖的股票？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，台糖的股票那是long long time，那都是很久以前的事情了，那個是因為……"],["羅委員明才：那你就要趕快處理掉啊！央行怎麼會比特幣不要買，你手上要買台糖的股票，這個邏輯怪怪的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是我們主動去買的，而是以前台糖可能有一些……我不曉得，因為這是很久以前的事情，然後要中央銀行介入，所以我們才握有台糖股票。"],["羅委員明才：那你就會被外界認為你可以買台糖，你不買比特幣，那怪怪的啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，就誠如我剛剛一直講的，比特幣從2萬塊，然後啪！啪！啪！上去到八萬多，然後又跌下來到7萬塊。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝楊總裁。"],["羅委員明才：好，因為時間的關係，我們希望央行……"],["主席：他就只有接受你當小蛇的建議而已，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好啦！希望央行能有更開闊的思維面對未來國際的挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我接受委員的建議。"],["羅委員明才：有多元的思考。"],["楊總裁金龍：我接受。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝總裁。接著請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.072218750000001,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.09721875,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.531593750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.792843750000003,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.46284375,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.73284375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.84659375,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.082218750000003,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.27971875,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.86596875,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.009093750000005,"end":32.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.24534375,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.78096875,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.759718750000005,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.36284375,"end":37.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.337218750000005,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.96159375,"end":40.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.63221875,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.509718750000005,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.024093750000006,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.48346875,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.563468750000006,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.59721875,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.09034375,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.10721875,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.39409375,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.70096875,"end":63.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.37971875,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.565343750000004,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.37909375000001,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.12159375,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.32409375,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.18034375,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.20096875,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.65221875,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.43659375,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.63409375,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.38034375000001,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.41409375,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.54471875,"end":88.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.57409375,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.29971875000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.31221875,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.34971875000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.31159375,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.71221875,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.68221875,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.88471875,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.93471875,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.43221875,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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year of dragon"},{"start":56.685,"end":81.337,"text":"所以希望你這個龍齁是不但在中華民國齁可以屹立不搖更可以是東方升起的一條巨龍講到這個齁我就跟你討論啦齁匹夫無罪懷璧其罪一般可能聽不懂啦齁但我知道你聽得懂就是"},{"start":82.854,"end":99.582,"text":"現在世界的發展潮流情況之下比特幣數字貨幣是變成未來必需的一個趨勢你想想看如果在六七年前本席在這裡"},{"start":101.349,"end":116.654,"text":"指詢的時候拜託中央銀行趕快發行新台幣的數字貨幣你那時候做的時候搞不好今天就沒有比特幣了啊 不會啦 比特幣還會存在的新台幣的數字貨幣在國際有機會可以閃閃發光"},{"start":124.189,"end":144.321,"text":"已經措施了6千年的集會我們聽到很多虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人他說比特幣你剛剛說他是個商品他沒有罪啊他如果不好"},{"start":145.869,"end":163.549,"text":"為什麼Elon Musk他要持有比特幣如果他不好的話為什麼美國那麼多的上市公司財產財報上面有寫比特幣為什麼不好的話美國政府手上持有比特幣"},{"start":164.91,"end":194.17,"text":"更甚者在美國的SEC也通過了11檔ETF的虛擬貨幣比特幣的項目你知道這個變成是一個世代的差距問題年輕人他們踏入這一塊他們對這個是充滿期待跟希望的"},{"start":195.39,"end":223.768,"text":"假設六七年前中華民國政府不逃避用誠懇面對認真的態度來好好把法令規章管理好那你想想看六七年前所有投入虛擬貨幣的這些年輕人手上的資產當初一個比特幣大概是六千塊美金現在已經漲到"},{"start":224.881,"end":252.253,"text":"七萬兩千塊美金的總裁我們是不是間接的讓這些年輕人上司的一個可以在資產大幅增加的一個機會就這些年輕人很多啊都是台大資工系畢業的啊都是高材生啊很多在台灣待不下去就"},{"start":254.158,"end":270.536,"text":"流落到新加坡跑到香港跑到杜拜去你如果說比特幣他是犯罪的你就全面禁止可是他不是他是一個商品"},{"start":271.778,"end":300.074,"text":"所以我們不應該本末倒置真正有問題的是詐騙的這些人是金管會你要好好的把所有的審查制度法令規章你應該把它做好才對嘛這個不要混啊所以本席在幾年前不同的時間同樣的地點我曾經建議央行"},{"start":301.055,"end":324.648,"text":"你要不要卓於買入一些比特幣當作我們的外匯存底你那時候如果買6000多塊現在是漲10倍你知道中華民國有多少人嗷嗷待哺就是要靠中央銀行去年中央銀行繳庫多少我們去年繳1800億1800億沒有一個單位那麼厲害的"},{"start":330.123,"end":356.67,"text":"當大家在講說那個台電開始電費要漲了10%你知道總裁民間小老百姓心裡是多麼的害怕已經是沒有什麼資產了薪水沒有漲物價一直要飆漲這個電如果再漲10%以後那生活怎麼生活"},{"start":358.325,"end":364.31,"text":"所以總裁有沒有辦法央行多賺一點這個台電的一千億你來出啊"},{"start":365.066,"end":388.8,"text":"不過我可以就是說很簡單的剛剛委員有講到就是說中央銀行要不要來投資這個比特幣比如說以前它多少漲到多少6千漲到7萬2但是呢委員我跟你報告中央銀行還是跟以前所說的一樣我們不會投資比特幣"},{"start":390.501,"end":411.07,"text":"因為你說的比特幣從這邊漲到那邊去的時候但是委員你有沒有想到你買到高點的時候幫它跌下來的時候我們就虧大了當然委員講的沒有錯它現在又漲上去了但是7.2億現在目前7.2、7.3這個不是它的最高點"},{"start":416.952,"end":435.752,"text":"他有最高點我記得好像有碰到8萬的請問總裁比特幣以後可能會漲到多少錢這個我不敢說有人講到說70萬美金沒有沒有現在目前是說他是到10萬不過我跟委員報告總裁eo mask是傻瓜嗎"},{"start":438.104,"end":466.363,"text":"他從8萬跌下來然後慢慢慢慢再上去然後再下來然後再上去這表示什麼他的波動都非常大是總裁那Elon Musk那他為什麼要買比特幣啊我記得那時候他也很瘋狂他也就說他買了多少而且他甚至說你用比特幣可以買我的Tesla"},{"start":467.783,"end":494.516,"text":"對阿他還說這樣子說阿但是後來也沒有後來他也沒有阿他沒有現在還沒有不代表以後不會有阿但是沒有阿其實總裁我知道你的保守的心態我可以理解阿中華民國的所有官員一般都是非常的保守但是我們期待的是希望台灣能有更多"},{"start":496.168,"end":512.26,"text":"遠高遠大的理想可以帶領台灣往前走往前衝你都不要那為什麼新加坡他要你都不行為什麼日本行所以央行大概有幾個字就是你參考一下就是央行那個保守有餘開創不足"},{"start":522.895,"end":525.396,"text":"我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":547.063,"end":550.645,"text":"那個龍做不成變成小蛇我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":577.363,"end":595.269,"text":"我沒有買沒買沒買都很可惜阿現在每盎司已經漲到2200塊本席在考量的是美國不斷的印鈔票大量的印印印印那請問總裁美國印了那麼多鈔票無限制在印"},{"start":596.601,"end":624.849,"text":"以後會有什麼影響?你手上外匯存地你還要放美金嗎?我跟委員報告啦會不會通膨?美元會貶值?喔是啦所以呢就是說就是說通膨呢某些國家就是因為他本身的通膨很高所以他才要握有黃金有些國家呢是因為美國制裁他所以呢他才要多買一些黃金"},{"start":626.431,"end":628.952,"text":"我跟委員報告委員說你說黃金從多少漲到多少不過我給你一個數據我給你一個數據"},{"start":650.509,"end":676.738,"text":"我們有計算從民國78年到目前1113年2月底黃金平均的報酬率是4.7%因為他沒有他只有他只有capital gain所以那個就只計算capital gain他平均的報酬率是4.7%美國的公債是多少5%不只是這樣子喔"},{"start":679.103,"end":686.413,"text":"黃�金的波動度多少15%美國公債呢他的波動度多少4.6%你看看"},{"start":689.093,"end":691.374,"text":"所以總裁你會繼續買黃金還是買美國公債?總裁最後問你以後會不會考慮買比特幣?"},{"start":717.156,"end":727.81,"text":"我跟委員報告我們不會考慮買比特幣但是呢我們會研究是否要買黃金那你為什麼那你手上為什麼要持股台糖的股票"},{"start":728.547,"end":751.872,"text":"沒有那台糖的股票那是longlong time那是很久以前的事情了那個是因為那你就趕快要處理掉啊怎麼會央行比特幣不要買那你手上你要買台糖的股票這個邏輯怪怪的沒有那沒有不是我們主動去買的而是以前啊台糖有一些的可能我不曉得因為這個是很久以前的事情"},{"start":752.412,"end":757.236,"text":"那你就被外界認為可以買台糖你不買比特幣那怪怪的啊那當然我沒有就誠實我剛剛一直講比特幣呢從兩萬塊然後上去到啪啪啪八萬多然後又跌下來然後又到七百塊謝謝羅委員謝謝楊總裁他就只有接受你當小蛇的建議而已"},{"start":779.254,"end":791.098,"text":"希望央行能有更開闊的思維面對未來國際的挑戰我接受我接受委員的建議多元的思考我接受我接受謝謝總裁謝謝接著我們請謝玉鳳謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231354b92155eb0414e3f51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6db806415cfe579a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:19:02 - 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有人是我嗎沒有我沒有講我聽另一張是這樣寫嗎"},{"start":99.912,"end":101.653,"text":"你要不要道歉有人講錯算到我頭上喔?我昨天PVP是不是長成這個樣子?我昨天圖是不是長這樣?上面哪一個字寫錯?"},{"start":126.287,"end":150.995,"text":"欸這邊相關的人事的部分等一下我們可以說明齁這個不是委員講的昨天口頭講的這些問題我們可以跟委員說明你昨天開的這個圖不是要我回去搞清楚要我澄清說對他不公平我要跟委員講的是吳國欽去當台研綠能的這個部分其實是我們拜託他去的欸沒有關係齁你是不是拜託他去那是下一個層次的問題齁"},{"start":153.376,"end":175.8,"text":"我在做諮詢資料的時候我自我要求很嚴格我所有的東西都有出處都有鎖本所以主席部長在備詢台上這樣指控我說這完全錯誤我要回去澄清一下我剛才已經跟委員致歉了那委員會來要問這些委員可以事先給我們我們可以來做回應我們繼續往下問吳國慶他本來的職務是什麼"},{"start":184.09,"end":205.532,"text":"他是在國營會的這邊當組長所以他對於綠能有什麼樣的專業他非常懂他非常懂是不是他督導我們中油台電特別是台電的部分所以針對有關於台年綠能的部分部長你有信心他下去當總經理以後可以好好整頓嗎"},{"start":206.809,"end":230.443,"text":"可以好好整頓嗎?我們就是拜託他幫我們...今天部長表現了這樣子的誠意我就跟部長講我從台言綠能從當地我所收到他們檢舉的內容我再說一次我的立場很簡單我不允許國家的資源讓特定的派系權貴上下其手這是我的立場"},{"start":232.759,"end":249.689,"text":"具體的看我為什麼說喔臺原綠能成為派系上下的起手當初引進這四大名股我知道經濟部反對但臺原綠能的董事長膽子很大經濟部反對他也不管就引進了四大名股嘛"},{"start":250.626,"end":279.295,"text":"昨天部長有講到臺元歷年虧損很重要的一個原因就是在嘉義異族的案場嘛對吧嘉義異族的案場提列了很多呆帳有很多現在要也要不到他們現在在種採種是是是好結果引進了民股蔡清旭蔡清旭就是跟臺南在那邊搞爐渣光店的同一個人他們都是做下包商"},{"start":281.004,"end":305.244,"text":"全都拿走然後結果是什麼?他們在賺錢台研綠能是什麼?在虧錢一模一樣土地開發的部分拿著台研綠能的招牌在外面收地這個鴻輝國際結果最後發現原來陳啟玉他兒子在那邊任職土地開發整合費全部都賺到鴻輝的口袋裡面去"},{"start":306.155,"end":332.057,"text":"他們在賺錢國家在虧錢有這種道理喔這個就是我看不下去的地方台演藝人之前的這個部分我們也整理了那再過來就是需要檢調來澄清所以這個部分我們也送給檢調了行事犯罪行事犯罪第二個吳國欽的部分部長你信任他拜託他去當總經理我希望他展現魄力大刀拓斧的改革"},{"start":333.057,"end":337.379,"text":"現在有上千位的民眾正在入港張斌的服務中心抗議他們抗議什麼?經濟部要在那邊設經濟的焚化爐"},{"start":361.394,"end":390.148,"text":"但他們很憤怒的事情是什麼這件事情去年民進黨政府林佳龍是帶著什麼當地的立委去跟鄉親保證絕對沒有這樣的事絕對不會推動經濟部絕對不會允許在這邊要設焚化爐結果到今年跳票了我知道這件事情以後一位彰化環保聯盟的總幹事施悅英斯老師來找我澄清我聽了很震驚啊"},{"start":391.38,"end":401.817,"text":"林佳龍做了這麼莊嚴的承諾怎麼會跳票部長你要不要說明一下自己到底有要幹還是沒有要幹林佳龍的承諾算數還是不算數"},{"start":402.922,"end":420.516,"text":"金鼎是承租我們這個髒冰的相關的這個土地那要做這個事情那我們這個部分有相關的規範那合約也有他應該做的事情比如說他要得到彰化縣的許可那這些程序因為對我們來說我們有這個相關合約的期限那期限之前他要去履行這些東西如果到時候沒有辦法"},{"start":432.025,"end":438.052,"text":"當地的居民很憤怒現在上千人已經把那個地方擠爆了還有很多人進不去我剛剛看到現場抗議的畫面大家只問一件事情"},{"start":449.847,"end":470.184,"text":"政府講話算不算話?林佳龍的承諾算不算數?我希望部長今天在那邊經濟部的同仁要給大家一個清楚的說明這樣可以嗎?我們都有相關的合約期程我們會來處理西部的內容是不是再請經濟部提供給黃國昌委員?是謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"149906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135d5a00be7ec74603e08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a671115e0c3c9f18cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:01:22 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謝謝委員"},{"start":556.721,"end":556.742,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ecec6458b2afada93bab39d7bda6ec6df8ba9b0039caa7a6046b0eefe8e5e5315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:56:45 - 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接下來有請張君倫律師發言"}]}},{"id":"149903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353bebded42b179b3308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a60829630984fb1b6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:56:23 - 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Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害"},{"start":76.083,"end":79.92,"text":"但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?"},{"start":81.069,"end":105.919,"text":"啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月"},{"start":106.599,"end":134.045,"text":"火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎"},{"start":136.119,"end":150.024,"text":"呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦"},{"start":151.224,"end":170.04,"text":"那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的"},{"start":171.581,"end":193.495,"text":"好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊"},{"start":196.036,"end":204.461,"text":"我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法"},{"start":211.405,"end":214.388,"text":"但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧"},{"start":236.47,"end":260.745,"text":"以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業"},{"start":261.465,"end":286.616,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎"},{"start":287.396,"end":291.143,"text":"那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135b4275d5605847e559acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a61932705a9722646d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:44:25 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11:57:24","影片長度":"00:12:59","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":779,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:57:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:44:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":966,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時44分）主席、各位列席委員。主席，我想請央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：顏委員早。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁早。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我想請教，賴總統在擔任行政院長的時候推動了數位身分證，當時號稱數位身分證就是一把萬能的鑰匙，集結了自然人憑證、駕照、健保卡、國民年金、勞保、育兒津貼、交通監理、車籍資料、稅務通關、護照簽證、公投連署、生前契約，這些東西就以「一卡萬能」這樣子來形容，但是後面衍生出來的資安問題，在當時，包括中研院的學者還有大眾都連署反對，所以行政院在110年（2021年）時由蘇貞昌院長做出一個暫緩換發作業的決定。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員說的沒有錯。"],["顏委員寬恒：而且他說必須要等到制定專法跟取得社會共識才可以再辦理，我想要請教的是，當時這麼重大的一個科技政策，為什麼在實行之前沒有先取得社會共識，也沒有做有效的安全規畫跟資安的資訊評估？可不可以請總裁來做個說明？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，委員講的前面這一段，基本上我坦白地跟委員報告，這一段我們不曉得，我們中央銀行的角色是什麼呢？我們是因為剛好這個是內政部要推的嘛！"],["顏委員寬恒：好……"],["楊總裁金龍：當內政部推到一半的時候，他們本來是找私人的廠商，但是他們後來才發現，他們可能做不下去，要中央銀行來做，所以中央銀行就承接了這個工作。"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我來講啦！當時內政部徐國勇部長強調這個晶片都是由台積電來產製，請我們的國人要安心，大眾要放心，不會有個資外洩的可能，單憑是台積電做的、一個部長的保證，就絕對沒有資訊的漏洞嗎？我跟你講，就像現在已經有89%的國家使用數位身分證。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：就連法律最完整的愛沙尼亞跟德國，他們都發生駭客的大規模攻擊，包括在愛沙尼亞造成銀行跟政府的停擺。德國在2018年也被發現有資安漏洞，駭客可以假冒本人來存取網路的資訊跟服務，我們現在手上的資料，像德國，反對的理由裡面，德國也只有不到三成的人有啟用這種晶片功能，就是我們的這個數位身分證。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以在這樣子的一個情形下，在我國，我們臺灣也沒有專法，也沒有專責機構來做監理，來做後面的管轄，然後就倉促地提出數位身分證，造成了我們現在被這個廠商求償，到底這一次我們又要賠多少錢？這些錢，這些被求償的金額是不是又要民眾買單？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我瞭解，這個是內政部在主導的。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以內政部主導，因為這裡面也……"],["顏委員寬恒：總裁，我跟你說，雖然是內政部主導，我想要問的是，公共工程委員會吳主委在備詢的時候有提到，這件事情一定要有人負責，但是不會到院長層級，那他講的不會到院長層級，也不會是總統，那會是誰？是內政部嗎？如果是內政部部長徐國勇，他已經卸任了，當時作決策的徐國勇部長已經卸任了，那現在的林右昌部長可以負責嗎？因為決策不是林右昌做的。我想要請教總裁，那誰要負責？你會不會危險？我替你煩惱啦！你有危險嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員要問的這個問題，我個人真的沒辦法回答……"],["顏委員寬恒：因為這個牽涉的部分，這麼講，全臺灣2,300萬人，假設今天數位身分證已經上路了，不曉得碰到什麼情況，資安的漏洞或者是裡面的一些資訊被駭客攻擊，全部的國人都會遭受這樣子的攻擊，所以我在想這是一個非常嚴重的問題，這些機具我們當時採購了多少錢？可不可以告訴我？"],["楊總裁金龍：我請我們的印製廠來跟您回答好嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：報告委員，當初我們的機器設備採購是3.79億。"],["顏委員寬恒：接近4億嘛！對不對？是不是？"],["喻總經理家聲：對，3.79億。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，後來不是有附了一個暫緩計畫，之後付了多少錢？"],["喻總經理家聲：暫緩期間機器折舊加上我們暫緩期間的費用，總共付了2.02億，就是我們……"],["顏委員寬恒：3.9，2.2……"],["喻總經理家聲：2.02億。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，3.9，那就4億多嘛！"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，3.79是投資的錢……"],["顏委員寬恒：5億多嘛！那現在要賠多少錢？"],["喻總經理家聲：現在這個2.02億是內政部已經支付給我們的。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，後來跟廠商的這個……"],["喻總經理家聲：這是我們跟下游的材料供應商之間，因為契約中止以後，結算的金額是最高2.8億。"],["顏委員寬恒：2.8億，所以總共金額多少？到底多少？"],["喻總經理家聲：實際上2.8億還要看有一些剩餘的材料，算完才知道。"],["顏委員寬恒：不管怎麼樣這些錢是誰要賠的？"],["喻總經理家聲：我們給廠商這個錢會跟內政部去要。"],["顏委員寬恒：還是我們賠嘛！還是由稅金來賠嘛！對不對？"],["喻總經理家聲：因為我們是承接內政部的業務。"],["顏委員寬恒：編預算去還嘛！"],["喻總經理家聲：所以這個我們要跟我們的業主內政部那邊去要這個錢。"],["顏委員寬恒：總而言之，政府一個錯誤的政策、一個倉促，然後沒有做完整規劃，當初為什麼要執行這個政策？是為了誰？可不可以告訴我？"],["喻總經理家聲：當初我們是承接內政部委託我們做身分證的製發作業，那……"],["顏委員寬恒：是你們委託嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：不是，內政部委託我們來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：你們接受內政部委託嘛？"],["喻總經理家聲：對，我們接受內政部委託。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，所以就是一個錯誤的政策讓我們虧了這些錢，假設這個政策真的上路了，拿到了身分證，那我們資安的疑慮或者說受到科技駭客的攻擊，後面所造成的這種真的是無法想像，所以我想在這邊我們要告訴各位……","接下來，我聽到陳院長說這些設備在未推行前還可以用在別的地方，我可不可以請教總裁，這些設備如果我們沒有去執行，那它可以用在什麼地方？"],["喻總經理家聲：跟委員報告一下……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們印製廠的廠長，他……"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼？聽不懂。"],["喻總經理家聲：這個設備是我們一般在製作高階的卡片用的，所以一般的信用卡是不會用到這個設備，一般是政府的卡片正卡會用……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們可以發行臺灣的數位貴賓卡，是不是？是不是這個概念？"],["喻總經理家聲：我們現在考慮的就是沒有晶片的……"],["顏委員寬恒：那能夠提供什麼服務啊？就是說我們要發行的話，如果發行數位貴賓卡可以提供什麼服務給持卡人？"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，我們現在可以做卡片，沒問題，這個設備可以做卡片，做高階的……"],["顏委員寬恒：可以做啦！但不知道要做什麼，對不對？所以這套設備是不是放在那裡，對不對？就放著。"],["喻總經理家聲：有跟內政部建議過，可以做不含晶片的身分證卡片，這可以做的，沒問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是回到傳統的身分證卡片嘛！不是這樣子嗎？"],["喻總經理家聲：沒有，那個卡片比現在磁卡的防偽層級會更高。"],["顏委員寬恒：這不是兒戲嗎？對不對？所以我想這真的非常荒謬啦！","好，因為時間不多，我接著再請教總裁。現今在我們臺灣的外籍移工非常多，他們跨國匯款的管道有幾種？可不可以快速地告訴我有幾種？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在目前有兩種，第一個就是小額匯款公司，現在是金管會准許的一些匯款公司匯款；另外一個就是仲介，仲介是代結匯，這兩個管道。"],["顏委員寬恒：剩下兩個管道？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對，這兩個管道。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，原來的那一些私立就業服務機構算不算在裡面？"],["楊總裁金龍：那個就應該是不算了。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在不算了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是不是有合法的私立就業服務機構1,680家，有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是……它是代結匯的。"],["顏委員寬恒：代結匯沒有錯嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，那是屬於代結匯……"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，對，沒有錯，那個是當時87年的時候，勞委會的函釋統一開放的嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：到91年8月份就廢止了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是我們中央銀行還是有法源依據延期……"],["顏委員寬恒：我知道，就是讓它沿用一直用到現在嘛！對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，那我直接講重點，就是一年的匯兌金額大概是900億，不是說大概900億，如果一個外籍移工以1萬塊臺幣的話，金額會到……每個月喔！每個月匯1萬塊回去故鄉給他們的家人，這樣子人數75萬人，然後算起來大概一年是900億。但是目前111年匯兌的額度不到250，所以七成多的這些匯兌金額跑到哪裡去？地下匯兌？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們提供你比較準確的數據，去年匯出去42.4億美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK，42……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，42.4億美金。113年1月匯出3.7億美金，平均每人匯出是490塊美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是啦！你這樣講，你跟我說去年匯多少就好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：去年就是42.4億。"],["顏委員寬恒：42.4億是美金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：是美金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，美金。"],["顏委員寬恒：這樣是臺幣多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：臺幣大概……"],["顏委員寬恒：就一千多億了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["顏委員寬恒：就一千多億了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：那為什麼……"],["楊總裁金龍：3乘4，12，就將近1,300億。"],["顏委員寬恒：去年一整年就1,300億？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，大概將近1,300億。"],["顏委員寬恒：真的嗎？你資料可不可以提供給我？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們可以提供給你。"],["顏委員寬恒：為什麼我們的差異會那麼大？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為你是用估算說每一個人多少，我們是他實際匯出去……"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦！當然啦！","那我再跟你講地下匯兌的部分，我們都知道只要有漏洞詐騙集團是無所不在，把你騙出去、把你騙進來都有……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個我們知道。"],["顏委員寬恒：他只要你的錢啦！就這樣子啦！我跟你講，這些外籍移工他們是非常辛苦，他們賺的都是辛苦錢，而且來到異鄉，我們也希望能夠保障外籍移工有一個安全更好的工作環境，包括他們的薪資所得，我們希望他能夠得到非常安全的環境，讓他們辛苦工作得到的這些報酬，能夠很完整的回到他們的家鄉、回到他們親人的手上，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，好。"],[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前面這一段基本上我坦白的跟委員報告這一段我們不曉得"},{"start":119.062,"end":119.222,"text":"那個總裁好"},{"start":148.214,"end":162.112,"text":"我來講啦齁當時人力政部徐國勇部長強調說這個晶片都是由台積電來產製請我們的國人要安心大眾要放心不會有各自外洩的可能"},{"start":163.194,"end":190.034,"text":"是單憑就因為是台積電做的是一個部長的保證就絕對沒有這個資訊的漏洞嗎我跟你講就像現在已經有89%的國家使用數位身份證就連法律最完整的愛沙尼亞跟德國他們都發生這個駭客的大規模攻擊包括愛沙尼亞造成銀行跟政府的停擺"},{"start":191.115,"end":204.528,"text":"德國在2018年也被發現有資安漏洞還可以假冒本人來存取這個網路的資訊跟服務連我們現在手上的資料就是說像德國"},{"start":206.672,"end":234.069,"text":"反對的理由裡面包括德國也只有不到三成的人有啟用這種晶片功能就是我們的這個數位身份證所以在這樣子的一個在我國我們台灣也沒有專法也沒有專責機構來做監理來做後面的一個管轄然後就倉促的提出數位身份證那造成了我們現在的一個"},{"start":235.27,"end":244.739,"text":"跟貝貝這個廠商球場那我們到底這一次我們要賠多少錢這些錢這些對球場的金額是不是又要民眾買單"},{"start":248.323,"end":269.734,"text":"這個據我瞭解是因為這個是內政部在主導的啦所以內政部主導那既然是內政部主導但是我想要問的就是說工程會主委工程委員會主委吳主委他在備詢的時候有提到說這件事情一定有人負責但是"},{"start":270.796,"end":285.051,"text":"午後到院長成績是那他講的不會到院長成績也不會是總統那會是誰是內政部嗎那如果內政部部長徐國勇他已經卸任了對當時做決策的這個這個"},{"start":287.478,"end":311.591,"text":"徐國隆部長他已經卸任了那現在的林佑昌部長他可以負責嗎?啊如果因為決策不是林佑昌做的那我想要請教總裁那誰要負責?那你會不會危險?我聽你煩惱啦你會危險嗎?委員講這個問這個問題啊我真的我是我個人真的沒辦法回答"},{"start":312.984,"end":333.695,"text":"因為這個牽涉的部分要這麼講全台灣2300萬人如果假設這個今天數位身份證已經上路了那碰到不曉得碰到什麼情況資安的漏洞啊或者是裡面一些資訊的被駭客攻擊啊那全部的國人都會遭受這樣子的一個攻擊那這些所以我在想這是一個"},{"start":334.861,"end":338.185,"text":"我來請我們的那個那個那個硬製廠來跟您回答好嗎報告委員當初我們的機器設備採購是3.79億接近4億嘛對不對"},{"start":356.058,"end":366.56,"text":"是不是對3.79OK那後來不是有負了一個暫緩計畫之後負了多少錢暫緩期間機器折舊加上我們暫緩期間的費用總共負了2.02億就是我們3.092.22.02OK3.09那就4億多嗎沒有3.095點多嘛5億多嘛那現在要賠多少錢"},{"start":381.823,"end":403.817,"text":"那現在這個2.021是內政部已經支付給我們的不是,那後來跟廠商的這個...跟廠商就是我們跟下游的供應商之間,材料供應商那因為次約終止以後結算的金額是最高2.8億2.8億,所以總共金額到底多少?實際上2.8億還要看有一些剩餘的材料這些錢不管怎麼樣這些錢是誰要賠的?"},{"start":406.004,"end":428.72,"text":"那我們給廠商這個錢還是我們賠嘛 對不對還是由稅金來賠嘛 對不對用月算裡面的月算去還嘛所以這個我們要跟我們的業主內政部那邊去要這個錢總而言之就是說這個政府一個錯誤的政策一個倉促然後沒有做完整規劃的就是一個當初為什麼要執行這個政策是為了誰可不可以告訴我"},{"start":429.737,"end":456.655,"text":"當初我們是承接內政部委託我們做身份證的製作,自發作業是你們委託嗎?我們接受內政部委託嗎?對,我們接受內政部委託所以一個錯誤的政策讓我們虧了這些錢那假設這個政策真的上路了,拿到了這個身份證讓我們資安的疑慮或者說接受到這種科技駭客的攻擊所後面造成的這種真的是無法想像"},{"start":460.217,"end":478.404,"text":"在這邊我們要告訴各位接下來我們聽到陳院長說這些設備在未推行前還可以用在別的地方我可以請教總裁這些設備如果沒有做我們的這個沒有去執行那他可以用在什麼地方跟委員報告一下"},{"start":484.248,"end":507.567,"text":"這個設備我們是一般在製作高階的卡片用的所以一般的信用卡是不會用到這個設備一般是政府的卡片證卡會用到所以我們可以發行臺灣的數位貴賓卡是不是是不是這個概念我們現在考慮的就是沒有晶片的那能夠提供什麼服務啊對啊就是說我們要發行的話如果發行數位貴賓卡可以提供什麼服務給持卡人"},{"start":508.237,"end":515.6,"text":"沒有我們現在可以做卡片沒問題這個設備可以做卡片做高階的房子有跟內政部建議過可以做不含晶片的身份證卡片"},{"start":522.419,"end":537.957,"text":"這可以做的沒問題阿就是回到傳統的傳統的卡片身份證嗎不是這樣子嗎那卡片比現在紫卡的防偽成績會更高這不是兒戲嗎對不對所以我想這真的非常荒謬啦好那時間不多啦我接著請教就是說我們"},{"start":540.76,"end":567.193,"text":"再請教總裁現今外籍移工我們在臺灣的外籍移工非常多那因為他們這個跨國匯款的管道有幾種可不可以快速告訴我有幾種現在目前有兩種第一個就是小額匯款公司現在是金管會准許一些的匯款公司匯款另外一個就是中介中介是貸結匯這兩個管道"},{"start":569.867,"end":580.32,"text":"身上的管道原來的那些私立就業服務機構算不算在裡面?現在不算了嗎?可是那個不是有合法的私立就業服務機構有1680家"},{"start":585.659,"end":602.977,"text":"應該是應該1680家他是待結會的對待結會沒有錯嘛那是屬於待結會OKOK對對沒有錯那個是在91年的不是那個是當時87年的時候勞委會的韓式同意開放的嘛到91年那個8月份就廢止了嘛"},{"start":603.918,"end":619.551,"text":"欸會會但是我們我們中央銀行還是有那個什麼法人預計我知道就是讓他沿用一直用到現在對不對好那我直接講重點就是說一年吶吼一年的會對的金額吼大概是900億"},{"start":621.533,"end":641.793,"text":"如果以一個外籍移工以一萬塊台幣的話的金額會到每個月每個月會一萬塊回去故鄉給他們的家人那這樣子人數七十五萬人然後算起來大概一年是九百億但是目前一百一十一年會對的額度不到兩百五"},{"start":644.06,"end":652.09,"text":"所以7成多7成多的這些會對金金額跑到哪裡去我們提供你那個比較準確的數據的"},{"start":658.396,"end":673.562,"text":"去年匯出去42.4億美金一百一十三年一月匯出三點七億美金平均每人匯出是四百九十塊美金"},{"start":679.224,"end":700.538,"text":"臺幣臺幣臺幣"},{"start":700.708,"end":716.905,"text":"好,我們可以聽為什麼差異又那麼大因為你是用估算說每一個人多少每一個人對啦對啦當然啦好,那我再跟你講就是地下會對的部分我們都知道齁只要有漏洞詐騙集團是無所不在的是是是"},{"start":717.005,"end":743.673,"text":"所以我怎麼把你騙出去把你騙進來都有啦他只是要你的錢啦就這樣子啦所以我們我跟你講這些外籍移工他們是非常 他們賺的都是辛苦錢而且來到異鄉那我們就是要保障我們也希望能夠保障他們外籍移工有一個安全更好的一個工作環境包括他們的薪資所得我們希望他能夠得到一個非常安全非常安全的這樣子一個環境"},{"start":745.093,"end":760.276,"text":"讓他們的辛苦的工作的得到的這些報酬能夠很完整的回到他們的家鄉回到他們的親人的手上好不好那請總裁這些部分再請你提供給我好那我們就好謝謝因為時間到了謝謝謝謝你謝謝顏委員現在我們請魯明台召委謝謝"},{"start":778.089,"end":779.64,"text":"主席各位出列習慣當然好"}]}},{"id":"149901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231354bc55ebd15ab525108cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6367e716d719082265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:50:17 - 11:56:10","影片長度":"00:05:53","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":353,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:56:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:50:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1405,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（11時50分）謝謝主席。有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：委員好。"],["黃委員仁：這一篇蘭嶼的核廢料之爭，臺灣原住民的憤怒與反抗到現在一直存在著。政府對於在蘭嶼放置核能廢料，從未經過當地蘭嶼達悟族的同意，因此，多年來他們持續向政府抗議，到現在仍在進行中。本席強調，蘭嶼核能廢料貯存場拆除抗議還在抗爭中，且所延伸出來的問題已經數十年了，因為核能廢料貯存場還在外洩，甚至整個污染已經延伸到臺東東海岸線八個鄉鎮，包含長濱鄉、成功鎮、卑南鄉、大武鄉、太麻里鄉、東河鄉、達仁鄉、臺東市等鄉鎮，嚴重污染當地的環境衛生。因此，本席認為政府應該運用「蘭嶼核廢料貯存場使用原住民保留地損失補償基金」的25.5億，研擬提出生態保育計畫，將補助挹助擴及到臺東海岸線八個鄉鎮的海岸居民。並依據環境基本法第二十條，積極採用各種措施，保護海洋環境，強化海洋的管理。另外，本席要求部長，環境部應該在行政院上，提出召開包含涉及的經濟部和原能會等跨部會工作小組會議，儘速核定本席所提出的「生態保育復育計畫」的政策，希望能夠在一個月內向本席說明及報告處理的狀況。","接著本席要與部長討論綠島嚴重污染的問題，在112年12月1日，臺東縣綠島鄉柚子湖海岸有大量重油污染，不明船隻排放廢棄重油，在臺東、花蓮陸續發現油污，原本的清澈海岸變成了黑色煉獄，你看一下這個圖片，污染非常嚴重。根據環境基本法第二條，「水係指以任何形式存在之地面水及地下水，海洋亦包括在內；濕地係動植物棲息環境之一，屬於自然生態系統之一環。」另外在環境部業務報告第69頁指出「致力減少陸源廢棄物污染海洋」，所以本席在這個地方特別要跟部長來討論這個問題，政府已啟動衛星及無人機檢測追查，但是到現在還查不出來，至今已經超過三個月，仍未找到元兇。環境部業務報告第22頁指出「海洋每吋土地都要乾淨」，而且立即清，緊急清，所以在這個地方，針對臺東核能廢料及綠島鄉柚子湖海岸油污染案，這段時間環境部不作為，造成海洋二度污染，成為海洋的惡夢，本席要求政府成立一個專案小組，而非一直放著，讓污染繼續侵蝕臺東的海岸線。部長，儘速在一個月內提出檢討報告，包含蘭嶼貯存場的核能廢料影響到整個東海岸這部分。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，剛剛委員所提的兩件事情，第一個是有關核廢料的部分，事實上那是以前的原能會（現在的核安會）主責。"],["黃委員仁：雙向溝通，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：第二個案子是海委會負責的海洋污染部分，事實上環境部有「向海致敬」，我們有一個海岸垃圾……"],["黃委員仁：沒關係，你們責成有關單位一起來研究，一個月之內給我一個報告，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["黃委員仁：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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有請我們薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":24.529,"end":48.485,"text":"這一天蘭嶼的廢料之爭臺灣原住民的憤怒與反抗到現在依此是存在著政府對於蘭嶼的核能廢料的這個從未經過當地蘭嶼達務組的同意多年來他們持續的向政府抗議到現在仍然的進行所以本席強調蘭嶼"},{"start":50.686,"end":58.962,"text":"何能廢料儲存廠拆除抗疫還在抗爭中不過現在所延伸出來的問題"},{"start":60.905,"end":89.496,"text":"已經數十年了因為河南廢料儲存廠它還是有外洩到整個污染延伸到哪裡臺東的東海岸線有八個鄉鎮包含長濱鄉成功鎮北南鄉大武鄉太馬里鄉東河鄉達仁鄉臺東市等鄉鎮嚴重污染當地的環境衛生"},{"start":92.318,"end":109.671,"text":"因此本席認為政府應該運用來以核能廢料儲存場使用原住民保留地補助這個損失的補助基金總共有25.5億以提出生態保育計畫將補助擴及到移植到臺灣海岸線的八個鄉鎮的海岸"},{"start":122.461,"end":149.973,"text":"依據環境基本法的第24條應積極採用各種措施保護海洋環境強化海洋的管理那另外這個本席要求部長環境部應該在行政院上提出週期包含涉及的經濟部和研論會等跨部會工作小組會議競速核定"},{"start":152.875,"end":162.911,"text":"本席所提出的生態保育復育計畫的政策希望能夠在一個月內向本席說明及報告的狀況另外"},{"start":164.881,"end":193.81,"text":"本席以部長討論的這個綠島的嚴重污染問題在112年12月1號臺東的綠島鄉右直湖海岸線大量的重油污染這個不知的傳知在臺東花蓮陸續發現油污染的這個清澈海岸變成了黑色"},{"start":194.488,"end":209.039,"text":"令一那另外你看一下這個圖片非常的污染根據你們的環境基本法第二條第三項"},{"start":212.558,"end":236.886,"text":"水系於以任何形式存在之地面水及地下水海洋液包括在內施地系於動物植物尤其地環境之一屬於自然生態系統的環境之一另外在環境部業務報告在第69項指出"},{"start":239.427,"end":264.953,"text":"自力減少露燃廢棄物污染海洋所以在這個地方特別要跟部長來討論這個問題政府已啟動衛星與無人機檢測追查但是到現在查不出來至於今日已經超過3個月乃未找到這個元兇"},{"start":266.173,"end":288.446,"text":"所以我們環境部業務報告22項指出海洋每一寸的土地都要乾淨而且立即清緊急清所以在這個地方針對台東核能廢料及綠島鄉幼稚園海岸中污染案"},{"start":291.468,"end":319.274,"text":"這段時間不作為的海洋沒有作為的海洋二度的污染成為海洋的噩夢本席要求政府成立一個專案小組而非一直放著讓污染侵蝕台東的海岸線所以部長盡數在一個月內提出這個檢討報告包含蘭嶼儲存場的核能廢料影響到整個東海岸"},{"start":320.831,"end":344.167,"text":"可以不可以跟委員報告一下就是說剛剛委員所提的兩件事情第一個是有關核廢料的部分那事實上是以前的研能會現在的核安會他們的主持所以你們雙向溝通雙向溝通好不好雙向溝通核安會那第二個案子是海委會負責海洋的污染那環境部事實上是向海致敬我們有一個海岸熱設"},{"start":351.093,"end":351.113,"text":"謝謝黃文謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135471344ce5f379d30836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6eddc1bc83facec775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:50:48 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tuning的部分非常非常昂貴，所以你這個大型語言模式如果建立出來之後要落地，落地你要做任何的比方說律師業或各行各業，你要做fine tuning這部分，經濟部好像也沒有……時間到了，怎麼這麼快？作為資深的立委，還是要遵守發言的時間，再半分鐘。","這個問題我希望把fine tuning的成本降低，這個可能國科會……您知道我在講的內容？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我知道，那個TAIDE引擎。"],["邱委員志偉：對，fine tuning部分降低之後，你才能落地去做各個行業的適用，所以我認為要從公部門先開始啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：對話引擎，就是Trustworthy AI Dialogue 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楊瓊發言 想先邀請周署長請周署長"},{"start":14.436,"end":29.749,"text":"昨天我們也討論過我也很歡喜聽到您說之前發生的事情呢你們不放棄繼續來溝通各自在談判的過程當中雖然15次但是呢"},{"start":31.091,"end":44.912,"text":"雖然雙方外界所謂的破局但是你仍舊認為沒有破局是雙方將自己的歧異的意見帶回去再研議沒有想到今天又發生了這樣的事情所以第一時間怎麼會知道呢?"},{"start":45.891,"end":60.879,"text":"我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到我們國搜中心的通知我們國搜中心當然國搜中心是經由對岸的一個搜救的單位通知我們對岸立即通知我們請求我們能夠"},{"start":63.2,"end":64.421,"text":"共同來參與救援"},{"start":79.492,"end":102.463,"text":"第一時間就把線上的巡邏艇直接就調到東定去直接就航往東定後續我們從我們的港內又陸續派了三艘我們到了現場之後我們看整個搜索的狀況因為東定島很近所以我們考量到吃水的問題我們又加派了一艘CP艇"},{"start":103.203,"end":103.223,"text":"楊瓊瓊委員"},{"start":126.317,"end":150.035,"text":"各項的救援資訊現在雙方都經由我們日常的一個通信的管道我們跟對方的執法區隊或者是海巡的單位跟我們共同聯繫那都互通有無我們採取什麼行動他們可能未來會派直升機來或怎麼樣他們都有跟我們提出一些溝通以及申請"},{"start":150.595,"end":150.755,"text":"主席"},{"start":173.286,"end":175.608,"text":"請大家放心,我們也希望大家團結"},{"start":188.8,"end":188.82,"text":"請部長。"},{"start":219.22,"end":241.856,"text":"楊瓊瓔好部長好部長這個人大他們兩會目前政協跟人大開完會日前結束那國安局長在備詢的當中他有說了他說沒有情緒顯示台海緊張情勢升高那部長您的看法是不是跟國安局長的方向是一樣的呢"},{"start":242.367,"end":264.974,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們每個人成績不同,人家講數位有專攻,他們果然在考量成績,把政治、經濟、環境都發脾氣。軍事方面就完全看,如果敵人有爭後,我們就要往下研判。所以立場不一樣,所以我們看法不見得一樣,但沒有講說互相要打點誰的問題。"},{"start":267.576,"end":282.336,"text":"對對對對但是他目前說是沒有其實認為說是緊張情緒會升高那您的看法呢我們都有見到但是我們看到眼前有些在海上空中的狀況我們認為在軍事方面我們不能夠鬆懈"},{"start":283.918,"end":298.819,"text":"對,這個就是大家對部長您的努力我想朝野大家都非常非常的肯定那我們的目的也就是希望不要讓民眾有所憂心恐慌這個我想是政府很重要的一個責任"},{"start":299.44,"end":299.56,"text":"國防部長楊瓊瓔"},{"start":316.795,"end":336.42,"text":"但是113年度裡頭我們的新的預算是6068億創了歷史的新高GDP佔了2.5%所以當然還有其他的國家相對的特別預算等等所以本期要請教我們在113年度裡頭會不會增加到GDP的佔比3%請做說明"},{"start":338.685,"end":355.452,"text":"這我不敢保證,因為國防預算訂定,有很多因素,要看國家財力,還有整個行的哪個部會是重點工作。我們上一年都有6068億,當初特別預算等等都包含在裡面的。"},{"start":359.594,"end":361.155,"text":"接下來本校請問今年1月份的時候華爾街日報也報導我們向美國訂購的約190億美元的飛彈"},{"start":389.774,"end":392.095,"text":"美國對於目前其中有許多訂單的交付還要拖還要拖了好幾年那除了報導的多管火這個火箭系統無人機戰車"},{"start":410.16,"end":430.994,"text":"余磊在去年預算中心也提出了我們也努力努力去追光光在光刺針的這個飛彈呢我們就吹了11次是嗎那目前進度如何呢我跟各位報告我們這個採購方面或人家有任何一個軍購方面的工作很多狀況"},{"start":432.355,"end":455.961,"text":"我們雖然不可預料但不認定就如此所以經過很多努力事實上最近的環境我也知道我們不假借或者幫老美講話但不管是俄烏戰爭也好或者任何一個形勢轉變有所延誤但我跟委員報告最後要交的日期都不會變就它原本114年要交的它沒有講出來就變114年但倒不會"},{"start":458.721,"end":475.892,"text":"部長,本席可以這麼解讀嗎?也就是當時你簽約的時間點,不管它的進度怎麼樣,到最後都會依照契約的時間點歸位?是如此嗎?可以這樣講,對。可以這麼說嗎?是這樣子啊。是這樣子我們就放心了。"},{"start":478.693,"end":480.094,"text":"因為民眾有疑慮,如果一直慢,會不會影響到我們整個國防的部件成效?"},{"start":503.477,"end":529.434,"text":"任何一個武器中央籌購以後雖然這是一個建案但是我們有什麼備案備案不就依賴這個備案但我要跟委員報告你這句話就對了本席認同不依賴這個備案所以我們要依照我們的腳程對我們要按照這個程序來對所以目前民眾所疑慮的會不會因為研製而導致我們的部件有成效的降低不會有這個疑慮吧在你的任內"},{"start":530.435,"end":530.455,"text":"謝謝,謝謝楊委員"}]}},{"id":"149898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135798eb4a7a159e576836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6b72c32b5d42b44535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:39:06 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11:50:29","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":683,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:50:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:39:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時39分）我們請吳主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：主委好。首先我非常感謝，幸會，然後非常感謝我們的國會聯絡組在我要的資料的部分也給了相當完整的資料，所以今天有這個機會可以跟主委這邊來討論相關的議題，今天如果時間夠的話，我想跟主委溝通一下有關於原住民的研究，跟國科會跟運科中心的相關平台，不知道主委對於族群研究與原住民族研究這個整合型計畫的起始跟目前執行狀況的瞭解？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我瞭解，因為原住民族包括原住民族科技永續的一些平台，事實上我們滿關切的，我記得應該兩、三年前，因為也有委員來提議嘛，我說國科會作為國家科學技術的主管機關，我們有責任來做這樣的布置，更何況原住民族一些相關的生活跟科技事實上也可以作為未來永續發展很好的借鏡，因為未來2050淨零，很多原住民族的一些生活方式是滿符合淨零的方向，我們也會把它納進來。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委，我聽到也滿放心的，因為在內容上，在科技的部分，好像在計畫裡面我沒有看到被特別地強調，所以剛才主委講的這個方向，如果是依照這樣子走的話，那我還滿欣慰的，所以在這邊我想跟主委做一個詢問有關於原住民族族群研究與原住民族的整合型計畫，我想請教一下為什麼要用整合型計畫的方式，請問這樣子的決策不知道主委有沒有瞭解或者……"],["吳主任委員政忠：請處長來作個報告。"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員，因為當初我們做族群研究跟原住民族研究是想要跟原來每位學者自有的研究有所差別，希望是在族群的連結以及原住民族的其他擴大的議題，所以整合型的研究是因為是整個國科會對於研究型態的一種規定，希望三件計畫能夠結合成一個團隊，然後往單一的方向，這樣目標清楚但是會跨不同的領域，所以有這樣的設計。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝你喔！我可不可以這邊做一個建議？因為之前團隊當然是很認真，我有問過這裡面有關於具備原住民身分的研究者跟非原住民身分的研究者，好像我們會裡面目前還沒有相關的資料，所以我的建議是可不可以開放個別型的研究申請，這樣我們比較不會被匡在一個刻板印象當中，因為這個部分其實據我長期的觀察，在原住民的研究上會有這樣一個限制，剛才主委也講到原住民的生活方式其實在淨零或者是未來的政策上應該是大家可以去探究的，有的時候因為我們在刻板印象裡面，很難掙脫社會對我們的刻板印象，所以或許有的時候我們已經超越了，或許有一些原本的東西就是大家在追求的，但是在這個過程當中，我們一直在主流的框架下沒有辦法掙脫，這個整合型的計畫有的時候也把我們匡在這裡面，所以不知道有沒有可能研究一下開放給個別型的研究，要不然我們可以說那具備原住民身分的學者是不是有這樣一個機會進行個別型研究，搞不好會有一些讓大家眼睛為之一亮的研究成果出現，這個部分是不是可以做個考量？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的提醒，這個應該現在就可以決定，當然可以。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：之前沒有嘛？"],["蘇處長碩斌：之前沒有，也跟委員報告，因為原來的整合型是要三件通過，所以真的很可惜的就是有時候就是通過兩件，它就不成案，我們雖然有學門，因為還有一個叫人類學與語言族群學門是可以讓個別的委員提案，但是我覺得委員的建議我們會考慮，只要……"],["林委員倩綺：對，因為我們長期會被匡在人類學，然後族群，似乎我們跟科技、自然或者是最尖端的AI一點關係都沒有，我想這已經是長久很多原住民的青年，包括我就覺得我們為什麼一定要被這麼刻板地看待，如果長得不是太土的話，你就看起來不像原住民，這樣子的刻板印象，其實長期、隱性的歧視會讓我們覺得真的很受限。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的提醒，一般型個人來提應該是可以啦！我想人文處會來發……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，謝謝主委。接下來我就資料的部分也有一點提醒，是不是可以請處內這邊，就是會裡面也幫忙做一些瞭解，我們這個整合型的計畫，之前我跟會裡面要了3年相關通過的計畫，幾乎都是整合型的，我就發現在計畫的分布區域似乎有一些分配越來越不均的狀況。主委可以看一下，大概北、中、南、東，我們就發現中央山脈以東，或者是中央山脈這中間，當然原鄉是非常多的，光是在這幾年，看起來似乎區域的分配有一些城鄉差距，我不知道會裡面是怎麼看待這個部分？如果可以，可以瞭解一下為什麼北部越來越多，我們知道北部可能都會型的空間比較多，但是中央山脈跟以東原鄉型的空間，似乎經費申請的部分，不是太平均。我們再看一下這個π圖，可以很清楚地看到110一直到113都會區、北部已經超過了一半，如果要這樣子，我們知道現在也有一些都會原住民的議題，是不是有可能在這樣一個取向上，第一個，先注意一下經費分布是否平均，在對原鄉及都會方面，不過我覺得會裡面可能要做一個比較深入的瞭解。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個是大學提出來的研究計畫嗎？就是那個機構……"],["林委員倩綺：是，所以在通過的考量上，在區位的分布可不可以再多做一些瞭解？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我來瞭解一下。"],["林委員倩綺：對。"],["吳主任委員政忠：看是申請的比較少還是怎麼樣，我來瞭解一下。"],["林委員倩綺：是，所以資源的分配，請會裡面幫我們瞭解一下這樣子一個不平均的狀況，尤其是113年都會區看起來還蠻多的，當然我知道可能要看議題啦！所以在原住民這個部分，我們今天期待能夠有幾個部分，就是我剛才講的資源分配，也請注意一下原鄉。當然，目前原鄉跟一些私校越來越沒有整體性的狀態，可能也會有很大衝擊跟影響。除了整體性，是不是可以請會裡面及早注意到這個問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：OK。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個部分是花東，包括中央山脈空間部分，其實原鄉很多，縱使現在整個社會不太一樣，但是原鄉的空間還是值得大家關注的。還有，早上有聽到火箭的發射或者是什麼東西的發射要在原鄉，我還是先提醒一下，可不可以在環境的衝擊上幫我們多做一些評估？","第三個部分，有沒有可能考量一下具有原住民身分的……剛才主委已經同意了，就請會裡面注意一下，原住民族身分的申請者跟非原身分的申請者，比例可不可以幫我們配置一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["林委員倩綺：感謝主委剛才的一個回應。最後，可不可以增加一個原住民族的社會永續科技發展平臺計畫？因為我們也很想知道現在AI的發展與STEM的議題。我相信很多年輕人現在應該很具備這方面的潛力，如果我們祖先的集體智慧傳承是在我們血脈裡面的話，我想這個部分應該有機會做到這樣一個可能，可以增加這樣一個平臺的研究嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個平臺本來就有，而新的議題我們應該可以來納入。"],["林委員倩綺：對，尤其是主委您的專業應該可以，搞不好哪一天你會發現原住民在這個部分是有特殊的一個潛力。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：最後一點，我就是提醒一下，有關於我們會裡面跟運科中心的一個結合。我知道會裡面當然比較著重在研究這個部分，教育部體育署下面的運科中心是針對運動員，有沒有可能在這個溝通的平臺上，國科會這邊多注意一下單項協會？現在或許不是大家都知道的明星型選手，但是在過程當中與他們成長，並針對臺灣目前有的單項協會的選手，可不可以量身訂做相關的研究？這個平臺可能要常常溝通，然後會裡面找到相關研究的人可以在這個部分做一些挹助，我想這樣子平臺的結合才不會各行其是。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["林委員倩綺：會更有效能。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝，這個我們會來做，的確我們運動科學的專案是在比較上、中游的一些research，事實上也會推到下面，包括傑出的運動員還有一般老百姓嘛！教育部的運動中心我們也會來跟他們密切聯繫讓它接軌，這個應該是可以。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委，如果有必要我也想參與在其中……"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：如果可以給一些建議，在這個部分幫大家連結的更好，如果有這個可能。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，可以。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請羅明才委員、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","我們請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.727218750000002,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.03096875,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.04284375,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.12159375,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.525968750000004,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.35596875,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.48971875,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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,{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.53284375,"end":670.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.2509687500001,"end":682.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":675.03096875,"end":675.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.4522187500002,"end":679.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.9753437500001,"end":680.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.04659375,"end":683.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":8.916,"text":"吳主委請我們接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在我們接下來請林倩綺委員我們請吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":26.998,"end":43.768,"text":"林委員好主委好首先非常感謝信會然後非常感謝我們的國會聯絡組在我要的資料的部分也給了相當完整的資料所以今天有這個機會可以跟主委這邊來討論相關的議題"},{"start":45.729,"end":73.141,"text":"今天如果時間夠的話我想跟主委溝通一下有關於原住民的這個研究跟我們這個國科會跟體育運科中心的一個相關的平台在這個不知道主委對於族群研究與原住民族研究這個整合型計畫的一個起始跟目前執行的狀況的一個瞭解"},{"start":74.421,"end":94.132,"text":"這個我瞭解因為原住民族包括原住民族科技的永續的一些平台事實上我們滿關切的那我記得應該兩三年前我說因為也有委員來提議嘛我說國科會作為國家的科學技術的一個主管機關我們有責任來做這樣的一個佈置"},{"start":95.273,"end":114.922,"text":"更何況援助民主的一些相關的生活跟科技事實上也可以作為未來永續發展的一個很好的借鏡因為未來2050進一年很多援助民主的一些生活方式是滿符合進一年的這個方向的"},{"start":116.102,"end":136.088,"text":"謝謝主委我聽到也蠻放心的因為在這個內容上在科技的這個部分好像在計畫裡面我沒有看到被特別的強調那所以剛才主委講的這個方向如果是依照這樣子走的話那我還蠻欣慰的所以在這邊我想跟主委這邊做一個詢問有關於原住民族這個"},{"start":139.609,"end":153.984,"text":"主權研究與原住民族的整合型計畫那我想請教一下那個整合型計畫的這樣為什麼要用整合型計畫的一個方式請問這樣子的一個決策不知道主委有沒有了解或者是那個請處長來做個報告"},{"start":155.425,"end":182.008,"text":"報告委員因為當初我們做族群研究跟原住民族研究是想要跟原來每位學者自有的研究有所差別那希望是在族群的連結以及原住民族的其他擴大的議題所以整合型的研究是因為是整個國科會對於研究形態的一種規定那也就是說希望三件計畫能夠結合成一個團隊然後往單一的方向那這樣目標清楚但是會跨不同的領域所以有這樣的一個設計"},{"start":184.11,"end":206.601,"text":"謝謝您,我可不可以與這邊做一個建議因為之前團隊當然是很認真我有問過這裡面有關於具備原住民身份的研究者跟非原住民身份的研究者好像我們會裡面目前還沒有相關的資料所以我的一個建議是可不可以開放個別"},{"start":207.461,"end":207.681,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":224.053,"end":248.422,"text":"﹗"},{"start":248.422,"end":249.162,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒應該現在就可以決定當然可以"},{"start":276.051,"end":276.211,"text":"謝謝主委"},{"start":294.262,"end":316.474,"text":"因為我們長期會被框在人類學然後族群那似乎我們跟科技自然或者是最尖端的AI一點關係都沒有那我想這已經是長久很多原住民的這個青年包括我就覺得我們為什麼一定要被這麼刻板的看待那如果長得不是太土的話你就看起來不像原住民這樣子的刻板印象其實長期這樣一個隱性的歧視會讓我們覺得有點"},{"start":322.836,"end":338.54,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,這個就是一般型個人來提應該是可以啦,那我想人文處會來發謝謝主委那接下來是我就資料的這個部分有一點提醒是不是可以請這個處內這邊就是會裡面也幫忙做一些瞭解"},{"start":343.041,"end":343.161,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":362.384,"end":362.604,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":382.425,"end":382.706,"text":"我們再看一下這個拍圖"},{"start":410.546,"end":431.469,"text":"我們可以清楚地看到110一直到113都會區北部已經超過了一半我們知道現在也有一些都會原住民的議題是不是有可能在這樣一個取向上第一個先注意一下我們經費分布的一個平均"},{"start":433.111,"end":433.592,"text":"這是大學提出來的研究計畫嗎?這個機構?"},{"start":450.853,"end":471.426,"text":"對,那所以在通過的這樣一個考量上可不可以在區位的分布再多做一些瞭解我來瞭解一下,看是申請的比較少還是怎麼樣我來瞭解一下是是,所以這個資源的分配請會裡面可以幫我們瞭解一下這樣子的一個不平均尤其是一一三年都會去看起來還蠻多的那當然我知道可能要看議題"},{"start":476.369,"end":497.56,"text":"所以在這個原住民這個部分我想今天我們期待能夠有幾個部分就是我剛才講的資源的這個分配那也請注意一下原鄉那當然原鄉會跟一些私校目前就越來越沒有的這一個整體性的狀態可能也會有很大的衝擊跟影響那除了整體性那是不是可以請會裡面及早注意到這個問題"},{"start":498.901,"end":523.991,"text":"第二部分是花東包括中央山脈空間的部分其實圓鄉很多縱使現在整個社會不太一樣但是圓鄉的空間還是值得大家關注的還有早上有聽到火箭的發射或者是什麼東西的發射要在圓鄉這我還是先提醒一下在環境上可不可以在這個環境的衝擊幫我們都做一些評估"},{"start":524.951,"end":553.417,"text":"第三個部分是有沒有可能考量一下具有原住民身份的剛才主委這邊已經同意了那我這個部分就請會裡面注意一下原住民族身份的這個申請者跟非原身份的申請者比例可不可以幫我們配置一下感謝主委早上剛才的一個回應然後最後可不可以增加一個原住民族的社會永續科技發展平台計畫因為我們也很想知道"},{"start":553.677,"end":553.697,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":570.638,"end":574.823,"text":"您的專業應該可以搞不好哪一天你會發現原住民在這個部分是有特殊的一個潛力"},{"start":589.343,"end":607.562,"text":"最後一點我只是提醒一下有關於我們會裡面跟運科中心的這樣一個結合我們知道會裡面當然比較著重在研究這個部分運科中心教育部的體育署下面的運科中心當然可能是針對運動員"},{"start":609.904,"end":635.39,"text":"有沒有可能在這個溝通的平台上那會裡面這邊可不可以多注意一下單項協會或許現在還不是大家都知道的明星型選手但是在過程當中與他們成長然後針對台灣目前已有的單項協會的選手可不可以做量身定做的相關研究那這個平台可能要非常"},{"start":637.43,"end":637.951,"text":"議員吳政忠列席報告"},{"start":660.828,"end":660.968,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135a348ab3b3785296b51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a696f4c54def4a9f255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:42:43 - 11:49:15","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":392,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:49:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:42:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":970,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時42分）謝謝主席。因為時間有限，我就同時請王部長跟中油董事長。"],["主席：請王部長跟李董事長。"],["王部長美花：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我今天也是沒有辦法準時來報到，就是因為晶鼎的案子，你是不是說明一下，到底是因為林佳龍秘書長的承諾，還是今天如果在地的民眾表達不同意的意見，的確有可能晶鼎公司就沒有辦法如實地拿到整個許可，是不是？"],["王部長美花：對經濟部來講，因為我們跟晶鼎有相關的合約，合約有期程，非常重要的是我們確實在合約裡面有要求晶鼎一定要拿到地方政府的執照；當然，地方的溝通一定要做，因為這是環評應該走的程序。所以這些前提如果都沒有辦法完成的話，會影響這個合約的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以這個合約的期限是不是在3月底？"],["王部長美花：我們合約的期限……"],["曾副局長琡芬：跟委員報告，今天在晶鼎公司所辦理的相關說明會，是來自於依照環評法的規定必須要做的作業程序。以上。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以合約的期限呢？我在講合約的期限。"],["王部長美花：相關的期程如果沒有辦法順利等等，因為我們會依相關的合約看它有沒有履行合約這些必要的條件等等的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：有階段性，是不是？有階段性？"],["王部長美花：後續我們再來處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：今天在場的民眾已經表達了抗議以及不支持的情況，所以如果沒有在場的民眾，其實林佳龍秘書長當初的承諾也沒有辦法解套，是不是？"],["王部長美花：我想當地居民的意見是重要的，當然，更重要的是它有沒有辦法拿到縣政府的相關執照，這個都是相關合約能不能往下走的前提。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我再問一下，昨天我在問主計長朱澤民的時候，他提到今年的經濟成長率如果是他們預估的3.4%，在他們預估的值裡面，國際原油價格是82塊左右。我想要請問，以中油對於今年油價的評估來講，今年油價的確是市場上面非常不確定的因素，你對油價的評估是如何的？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，我們113年的預算書是抓80.5塊，事實上我們目前……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你會賠多少？"],["李董事長順欽：1、2月來講的話，大概是80.6，其實很接近，我們也在掌握整個國際大公司對下半年油價的走勢……"],["謝委員衣鳯：下半年油價呢？"],["李董事長順欽：我們認為：第一，它大概也有支撐，就是去年跌到70出頭這裡，高大概也不會高到95，就是會在這個區間去做盤整。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你說七十……"],["李董事長順欽：對，過去大概70到95之間，因為它的波動其實要看很多因素、看地緣政治關係、看美國的庫存……"],["謝委員衣鳯：往上的機率大，還是往下的機率大？"],["李董事長順欽：我們看起來應該是持平在八十幾塊這個地方的可能性比較大。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以不會影響到經濟成長？"],["李董事長順欽：油價的話，我們是看國際大公司的趨勢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果是八十幾塊，就不會影響到經濟成長，但是對於電力的需求，那就相對地大了，是不是？如果中油預估的油價是往高的時候，對於中油的虧損，你預計是多少？"],["李董事長順欽：所以這裡面我必須……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們有雙緩漲的政策，是不是？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果油價區間在80的時候，你預估你們的虧損是多少？90的時候，你們預估虧損是多少？"],["李董事長順欽：80塊的部分我們大概有報告過，就是希望能夠……"],["謝委員衣鳯：虧損多少？"],["李董事長順欽：能夠把它打平。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，你們預估。"],["李董事長順欽：其實還有包括我還有天然氣的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你去年虧損180億嘛。"],["李董事長順欽：還有包括石化的部分，所以這裡面其實要這三大類產品綜合來考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是今年最大的不確定因素的確是在石油，是不是？"],["李董事長順欽：是油氣，氣會跟著油來變動，因為國際的天然氣價格JKM還是包括現貨，它是跟著布蘭特……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我只有4分鐘，你回歸到主題。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你應該有試算過，你就講吧！80的時候是多少？"],["李董事長順欽：目前大概如果現在是80，希望能夠在打平這個地方。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果是90呢？"],["李董事長順欽：90的話，這裡面我們沒有精準去算，但是因為如果油價高漲，我的成本提升，但是我的售價受到亞鄰最低價、還有平穩機制雙機制的限定，中油公司吸收的政策任務會更多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：多少啊？"],["李董事長順欽：這塊如果我們試算以後有……就會跟委員做報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你都沒有講，你都已經有抓出區間了，你就應該試算了，是不是不願意講？"],["李董事長順欽：不是、不是，因為我們對各種情境必須要有一些假設前提，就是這裡頭除了油價布蘭特的FOB，還要再看JKM的現貨價格……"],["謝委員衣鳯：王部長，他不講就你講喔！"],["王部長美花：不是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會漲？"],["李董事長順欽：現貨價格還是跟著……"],["謝委員衣鳯：油價會不會漲？"],["王部長美花：因為它的浮動，所以會影響他們怎麼試算，他們的預算是以如果油價是80塊的話，大概今年度希望可以打平這樣的情境。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那90塊呢？"],["王部長美花：90塊鐵定會虧損的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：虧損多少他不講。油價會不會上漲？"],["王部長美花：虧損多少就會跟油價跟氣價相關的情形有一些互相變動的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果油電又雙漲呢？"],["李董事長順欽：應該這樣子說，以過去我在煉油廠的經驗，如果原油每上漲1塊錢美金，對我整個成本會增加大概四億多；如果這樣子的話，上漲到90塊，大概會增加四十幾億的成本，如果這些成本沒辦法在7D3B的售價來做反映的話，這部分就是我要吸收的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我看你好像都沒有算，下次要來報告之前，你應該要算好。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不然不問你就問部長，謝謝。"],["李董事長順欽：是的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外有楊瓊瓔委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那90塊呢"},{"start":347.048,"end":348.871,"text":"90塊鐵定會虧損的虧損多少他不講虧損多少就會跟油價跟氣價的相關的情形有一些變有一些互相變動的問題"},{"start":361.602,"end":388.183,"text":"對我的整個成本會增加大概4億多啦如果這樣子的話上漲到90塊大概會增加40幾億的成本那如果這些成本沒辦法在73億的這個售價來做反應的話那這部分就是我要我看你好像都沒有算下次要來報告之前你應該要算好喔是是不然不問你就問部長"},{"start":389.07,"end":393.422,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135a31faedd03c089f53bab39d7bda6ec6df8ba9b0039caa7a6effb6f8b230260f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:40:01 - 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檢調查扣不易"},{"start":130.47,"end":130.49,"text":"鍾佳濱"},{"start":151.311,"end":151.611,"text":"虛擬資產氾濫無專法可管"},{"start":169.58,"end":170.401,"text":"公聽會：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：鍾佳濱"},{"start":188.473,"end":204.35,"text":"那當這種情況之下我們看看詐團的犯罪的他的工具有AI可以自動製造詐騙廣告同時他透過科技的層層移轉快速起錢另外也製造了網路斷點隱匿自身可是相對的我們檢調他的偵查防制工具是傳統的有限的"},{"start":205.811,"end":211.096,"text":"新興科學工具 無證據能力 人手永遠不夠在法規範上我們要修正法條今天我們討論的一個草案是詐欺犯罪的防罪條例 組織性詐欺犯罪條例這裡面我們看到的各方的草案內容包括行政院 原先我們看到的都有包括及時下架詐欺廣告"},{"start":230.154,"end":230.274,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":250.954,"end":278.045,"text":"警方新興的科技偵查工具具備有證據能力這裡面除了說的M花車還有GPS定位未來提到的小木馬大木馬可能都是要社會共同來共同討論的同時我們現在的通訊監察法其實還停留在去聽語音通訊那麼這裡面要擴充到能夠針對網路流量的分析工具到補充進去當然在管會的部分虛擬資產專法也要去"},{"start":280.706,"end":280.926,"text":"金融機關提供者"},{"start":301.937,"end":302.037,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":319.346,"end":322.49,"text":"主卻詐欺犯罪防制條例能在本院進出通過"}]}},{"id":"149895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135d4851536e5e404e9d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6a0774d604d2e170f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:34:30 - 11:44:22","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":592,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:44:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:34:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時34分）謝謝主席。請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。剛才幾位委員都有提到你回應民進黨立委講到的在地協力者的問題，如同你剛才自己說的，最後他到底有沒有定罪、有沒有法律問題，是檢調要調查，還有你也承認這個判定標準很困難，你可能也說不出所以然。比如問你的沈伯洋委員竟然告訴你可以用光譜來判定！我都不曉得這是哪門子的法律見解，用光譜、用政治光譜嗎？所以我具體建議，部長你是國防部長，因為你在這個部分並不是專業，比如剛才甚至有提到網路的一些反串言論，所以其實你真的大可不必去談這個所謂在地協力者的標準，我覺得只是徒增困擾而已，這是我對你的一個良心建議。","時間暫停一下，我也請我們的海巡署周署長。"],["主席：請周署長、副主委。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，署長，早上你們發了一個新聞稿，就是今天翻覆的漁船是在東碇海域1.07浬，在東碇島西南方1.07浬翻覆的，請問署長，翻覆的地點應該是在我們的禁限制海域裡面嗎？因為非常非常的近，是吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：它是在東碇島，因為東碇離金門有15浬遠，也就是說……"],["王委員鴻薇：是不是在禁限制海域？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，它在東碇島的禁限制水域內。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，就我所知，因為它很接近了，所以事實上你們有在監控，也派巡防艇出去了，是不是？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們的巡防艇是在線上巡邏，我剛剛有報告，我們在我們的金門附近水域巡邏。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以沒有針對這一艘漁船去特別接近它？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，沒有針對這一艘特別去接近它，因為距離有15浬，15浬大概是將近30公里的概念。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以當時我們的巡防艇距離翻覆的漁船其實是很遠……"],["周副主任委員美伍：很遠。"],["王委員鴻薇：但它離東碇島非常近……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個翻覆的漁船離東碇島只有1.07浬。"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！非常近。所以我的問題是，到目前為止，我們有沒有掌握到它到底為什麼翻覆呢？"],["周副主任委員美伍：目前我們不得而知，但是我們現在所有的船隻都在現場救援。"],["王委員鴻薇：現場的海象如何？"],["周副主任委員美伍：現場的海象……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這艘船沒有被我們驅離的問題，沒有被我們追撞的問題，這個幾乎都……"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，都沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個幾乎是完全排除。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那有沒有可能是因為海象的問題？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有可能是海象的問題，因為這2天鋒面經過，時好時壞，像這樣的船隻，通常它的船體狀況都不會很好，所以為什麼在過去幾年當中，我們經常會發現類似的漁船沉沒，也經常會因為這種類似的狀況而去救生、救難。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，不排除有海象問題。因為它離東碇島這麼近，好像等退潮的時候，當地甚至也不排除船隻會擱淺，因為現在這個船體還在漂來漂去……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那有可能在我們東碇島的岸上擱淺嗎？有沒有可能？"],["周副主任委員美伍：目前它的位置，我剛剛11點15分接到的通報是在東碇西南的0.05浬的位置，只剩下一個桅杆，我們的同仁……"],["王委員鴻薇：只剩下桅杆……"],["周副主任委員美伍：也就是說船體本身都已經翻覆在水線以下了。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它是有可能擱淺在岸上？"],["周副主任委員美伍：海巡隊的潛水人員大概在10分鐘前就已經下水了，我們現在要到船艙裡面去看有沒有生還者。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為還有兩位失蹤。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，還有兩位失蹤。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以以現在的狀況來講，你剛才說是0.05……"],["周副主任委員美伍：0.05浬，我剛剛有特別報告今天的流向是向東流，所以它有2節的流向，2節就是3.8公里，是很大的流向，這個流速是很大的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果它擱淺在我們的海岸上，而大陸方面希望能夠登船，也就是去看有沒有生還者也好，或者是檢查船體等等之類的，我們會同意他們登船去檢查嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我想就人道立場、救生、救難立場，相信航管單位應該會同意他們的救難人員到現場去，但是我相信這個僅止於海面。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是不能登島，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：應該……"],["王委員鴻薇：在海面上，如果在海面上，你可以去檢查……"],["周副主任委員美伍：應該是，應該是。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是基於人道？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也想請教部長，因為這件事離我們前面的金廈海域爭議事件時間非常短，其實之前是不歡而散、談判破裂，造成兩岸之間的緊張，然後對方也開始做一些行動，包含說臺灣沒有國際海域等等之類言論。依部長的判斷，針對這一次事件，第一個，我們剛剛講的，可以完全排除是因為我們從事驅離，或者是像之前有追撞的狀況，這是可以完全排除的，而且我們也根據對岸的要求，派出了4艘船一起去救援……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我更正，我們現在是6艘，我們又加了2艘。"],["王委員鴻薇：從4艘變6艘？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以一共出動6艘船？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，6艘。另外，我們也請金防部支援我們專業的潛水人員，他們有專業的潛水人員在金防部……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以軍方也有支援？"],["周副主任委員美伍：軍方也有支援，我們全力來做，而且東碇島的守軍現在全部在岸際加強搜索，畢竟它離岸很近，大概2,000碼左右的狀況，用高倍望遠鏡都可以看得到。只要一搜索到，他們就會通知我們海巡，我們會立刻到該位置去確認有沒有人。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，先請教部長，待會再請教署長，這個事件其實我們已經展開極高度的人道救援，不管是人力配置，還有我們的態度，所以部長覺得這次事件有沒有助於和緩之前因為金廈撞船事件而造成的兩岸緊張情勢？你覺得一樣還是升高，還是有可能和緩？"],["邱部長國正：剛剛海巡已經說明很清楚，照這種狀況來走的話，是不至於惡化，應該還算蠻平順，因為大家都基於一個人道救援的作法，也沒有為難的問題，我就把它看待為應該是一個比較好的處理方法……"],["王委員鴻薇：是比較好的方向。"],["邱部長國正：會影響到將來，可能在某一方面會稍微有點進展，但結果怎樣我不能預計。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我必須講，因為翻船的地點非常非常近，其實已經是非常非常接近東碇島了，就是我們的禁限制海域……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我們還是本於人道救援精神，並不會因此而有任何的說法，譬如我們先去檢討他們有沒有進來我們的禁限制海域。最後一點點時間，請問署長，你覺得這個事件有沒有辦法和緩之前緊張的氣氛？"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，我的評估跟部長一樣，我們希望、希望……我早上特別強調，因為金廈水域很狹窄，經常會發生這樣子的事件，在過去沒有發生0214這個案件之前，我們這種密切接觸是非常密切的……"],["王委員鴻薇：非常多嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：我再跟委員補充報告，今天早上我們第一時間就跟對岸的執法區隊聯繫，他們現在把這6個人的名字，哪些是生存的、哪些是死的、哪些是失蹤的人名，全部都告訴我們海巡，所以我們的互通是沒有問題的，我們過去是這樣做，現在還是這樣做。在人道救援方面，在救生、救難方面，我剛剛也報告了數據，我們在發生海難的第一時間就是救人，什麼都不想，也不會講什麼禁限制水域，什麼都不會想，先把人救到再說。剛剛我也特別跟您報告，除了我們的潛水人員現在已經在水中尋找，我們還請金防部更專業的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們還是用最大的力量……"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，能夠幫他們找到生還者。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝，謝謝署長、謝謝部長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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11:44:20","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":700,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:44:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:32:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":851,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時32分）主席好，請總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["陳委員玉珍：總裁你好。立法院在上個會期曾經通過臨時提案，要求央行會同金管會提交「打造外幣現鈔兌換新臺幣現鈔及儲值卡之複合式設備可行性」書面報告，現在外籍旅客到臺灣兌換新臺幣的管道有幾種，第一個，親臨銀行、郵局、信用合作社和農漁會信用部兌換新臺幣。第二個，使用銀行提款機及外幣兌換機兌換，現在全國機場、港口總共有30台兌換機。再來是到一些收兌處兌換，比如旅館、百貨公司、博物館等這些景點，近十年大概有兩百多家。我們來看金門，金門也是國門，小三通往來的人也很多很密切，現在金門唯一有人民幣兌換臺幣的提款機是永豐銀行。我們的水頭商港有兩家金融機構，一個是信合社、一個是土銀，臨櫃兌換服務是一到五早上9時至下午3時30分，禮拜六、禮拜天一例一休，所以沒有提供，還有購物中心金湖廣場和金湖飯店都有。最近我們的鄉親有在反映，因為週休二日都沒有辦法兌換，如果在水頭商港提供外幣兌換機部分，讓進出的旅客比較方便，用無人外幣兌換機進行小額匯兌，對從金門往來的不管是外國或是大陸旅客都有便利性，金門沒有這個服務是不是有違普惠金融的目標？總裁怎麼看？"],["楊總裁金龍：我簡單說，當然設置兌換機也是商業行為，委員質詢的也沒有錯，如果不普遍而造成人民的不方便，有違反普惠金融的目的，我也滿贊同。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個部分是不是支持？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：到時候請金管會……"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這是金管會的職權。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但是因為之前是要求你們和金管會聯合提出相關的外幣現鈔兌換新臺幣現鈔複合式設備……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們跟金管會針對金門……"],["陳委員玉珍：尤其是在小三通的港口。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為金門有小三通，這是一個比較特殊的情況，這是一個商業行為，我們來跟它溝通、溝通。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個部分請你協助。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：第二個問題，這幾天媒體報導，為了因應未來貨幣支付新形式，剛剛我看很多委員也有問，評估要導入央行數位貨幣（CBDC）的可能性，從去年11月開始委外進行，大概4月結案，5月會公布結果，新臺幣數位化未來使用CBDC，就像用電子支付app、QR-code等等轉帳、存款，或到ATM進行錢包儲值，把外幣或臺幣弄進去來做這個事情。根據國際貨幣基金（IMF）的報告，全球現在已經有超過100家在研究中央銀行數位貨幣，你們也在研究，但因為現在虛擬貨幣詐騙頻傳，導致人民的信任度低落，到時候你們怎麼樣鼓勵，還有增強民眾的使用意願？關於你們的進度，你說你們沒有要競賽、沒有要搶先發。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們還沒有設時間表，今年5月調查完成後，你預計整個發行的期程大概要多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是有三個階段，第一個階段，我們蒐集資料之後看到了結果，然後我們會舉辦論壇、公聽會，這個會花比較長的時間，因為要廣泛地讓大家知道這件事情，專家學者的意見是什麼，我們也會納入考量，這是第一個工程。另外，我們對於目前這個平台的技術是不是有再精進的空間，我們也跟國外的沙盒、BIS及其他的SWIFT共同來看Cross Border跨境的話要怎麼設計，這個都還在進行當中，所以時間不會很短，可能要很長的時間。"],["陳委員玉珍：大概呢？我知道你們也沒有要競賽，所有的政策施行都是要一些時間，我們也瞭解一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，我們現在的進度不會輸其他國家。"],["陳委員玉珍：你講了很多以後沒有告訴我一個答案。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個很難。"],["陳委員玉珍：大概有一個進程吧，除了政策，我們政府……"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也講了，這個timetable到目前我們還沒辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：你也沒有擬定一個政策，譬如蒐集資料要3個月，專家學者研討要3個月。"],["楊總裁金龍：會有期程，但是最後……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你有沒有打算把這個當作一件事情去做？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然有。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果有要做就會有一個目標，比如半年內完成、3個月內完成、1年內完成，有沒有這樣的期程？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我們還不會有這樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：中央銀行做這個政策決定未免太過輕鬆吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，所以我剛剛才會引用……"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛剛有講了好幾個事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛還有引用美國央行主席Powell所說的話，他也說發展CBDC要非常非常謹慎，他也沒有時間表，不只是美國……"],["陳委員玉珍：照我這樣聽起來，你的意思是你要往做的方向去做嗎？還是你是要不要做都還沒有確定，而只是說我們可能會做，還在研議階段？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是往前走，只是什麼時候……"],["陳委員玉珍：那會不會做呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼時候要開始……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼時候做是一回事。"],["楊總裁金龍：還沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你是有打算做還是沒有打算做？有打算做，才能說多久做什麼事，還是連要不要做都還沒有決定？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是有這個決心要往前走，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：往前走是做還是不做？要做吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，現在就是要看我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你還沒有決定要不要做？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個民意的情況我們看看……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是由民意決定要不要做？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是！央行應該是帶領我們國家前進的單位啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不一定，不一定，我……"],["陳委員玉珍：要不要做這種電子化的支付，當然，世界潮流，臺灣的這個需求……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦、對啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：那講民意，民意要做不要做，應該不是最先的考量吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，有一件事，我剛剛有一個New eID……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不是應該帶領各個銀行做先進的這些，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，剛剛有一個委員提到New eID的事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：有，我剛剛有聽到，有委員有問，我有聽到。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我才會問你。"],["楊總裁金龍：New eID我說政府也是要往前推的嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：政府要往前推，所以政府是要往做的方向推嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是到最後，他就說……"],["陳委員玉珍：是要往做的方向推是嗎？還是不一定？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，不是說不一定，你往前推，但是你有一個最大的前提，就是要讓大家都能夠瞭解這個是不是會涉及到很多的問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：那個是涉及宣導，那個沒問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：宣導是後面的事情，你的政策決定應該是有一個方向吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不只宣導，還有……"],["陳委員玉珍：比如說我們對0到6歲國家養要不要做，這個是先有一個政策決定，然後接著說如果要做，分期是哪幾年做什麼事情、哪幾年做什麼事情，因為央行是一個相當重要的單位，如果你自己這個單位都沒有想要引領前進，你下面這麼多銀行也是跟著政策走的啊，如果鼓勵電子支付，鼓勵政府數位貨幣……所以我想瞭解的是您的政策方向，或者說你們還是在……"],["楊總裁金龍：我的政策方向還是往前走啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道是往前走，但你是往左邊走，還是往右邊走，往南邊走，還是往北邊走啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，研究的階段最少最少都要3年以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啦，你給一個時間嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，最少都是要3年。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個數位貨幣要不要推呢？至少要先研究3年嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，至少……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是還是要研究，但是要研究3年？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個3年……"],["陳委員玉珍：研究3年以後才能決定往哪邊走，做或是不做嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：這樣講可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以就非常地慢嘛，數位時代什麼事情要研究3年，不就是非常地慢嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不會喔！"],["陳委員玉珍：不會喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，我跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個科技日新月異耶！像那個晶圓幾奈米、幾奈米每一天這麼快地在進步。"],["楊總裁金龍：科技越進步，你就要越小心，也就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：小心沒有錯，但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，也就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：不過，報告的……"],["楊總裁金龍：你所使用的技術可能就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：技術是一回事。"],["楊總裁金龍：技術也是很重要的。"],["陳委員玉珍：中華民國的技術應該是相當好，我也對我們國家有信心。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，技術也要有很多……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說政策方向其實才是重點啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，政策方向我們還是會往前。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果照央行總裁您的這個回答方法，這個科技日新月異，但是你一個政策需要研究3年，我覺得這個應該再好好地檢討一下，實在是有點久了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：我會期待是3個月……"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，我們會很謹慎。"],["陳委員玉珍：謹慎說好聽叫做穩健，說難聽叫做保守，這個你回去再思考一下啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我會，好。"],["陳委員玉珍：數位化的這種潮流應該是世界都在走嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有要你搶先，但是你也不能研究這麼久，這個什麼政策要研究3年？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們的速度都比其他國家還快。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你的意思是其他國家也研究超過3年？有嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有的都超過了啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，其他國家研究多久，請你給我一份資料，哪些國家研究超過3年，世界先進國家從開始研究要多久，請你給我一份資料好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝你。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝，可以。"],["主席：接下來請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.26721875,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.29221875,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.700343750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.07346875,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.613468750000003,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.557218750000004,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.79284375,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.58596875,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.32409375,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.55971875,"end":47.500343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.55096875,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.58471875,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.03034375,"end":58.890968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.650343750000005,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.118468750000005,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.77409375,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.78909375,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.47221875000001,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.52284375,"end":96.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.60221875,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.62159375,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.15284375,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.51971875000001,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.42096875000001,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.07909375000001,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.39909375000002,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.37159375000002,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.29534375,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.88159375,"end":164.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.76971875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.83221875,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.94596875000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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border就是說你跨境的話要怎麼來設計這個都是還是在進行當中那這個時間不會很短這個可能要很長的時間"},{"start":344.497,"end":344.737,"text":"我們現在的進度不會輸其他國家"},{"start":360.114,"end":384.625,"text":"所以呢?你講了很多以後你沒有告訴我一個答案我剛剛也講了這個就是說一個time table到目前我們還都沒有你也沒有擬定一個政策沒有說大概比如說收集資料要3個月什麼東西要專家協會研討在3個月所以你有沒有打算把這個當做一件事情去做?"},{"start":386.026,"end":408.8,"text":"當然有當然有嘛那所以如果有要做像我們這一個目標嘛比如說大概半年內完成三個月內完成一個月一年內完成對這個到目前為止我們還不會那這樣子這個中央銀行做這個政策決定未免太過輕鬆吧不會所以我剛剛我才會你剛剛有講好幾個事情嘛"},{"start":412.142,"end":431.169,"text":"我剛剛還有引用到那個什麼POWER就是美國央行的那個POWER就是他的主席他所說的話他發展CBDC他要非常非常謹慎他也沒有時間表那不只是說所以其實你的意思如果在我的聽起來就是說"},{"start":432.489,"end":461.829,"text":"你是要往做的方向去做嗎還是你要不要做都還沒有確定而只是說我們會往我們可能會做還在研議階段我們還是往前走但是什麼時候做是一回事你是有打算做還是沒有打算做有打算做才有一個說啊多久做什麼連要打算做都還沒有決定但是就是說我們是有這個決心要往前走往前走是做還是不做勒"},{"start":462.489,"end":463.329,"text":"有些時候委員有一件事我剛剛有一個"},{"start":490.674,"end":493.237,"text":"你們不是應該帶領各個銀行做先進的一些...對對對我剛剛有一個委員提到NEID的事情"},{"start":502.54,"end":529.689,"text":"我剛剛有聽到,他有問,我有聽到所以我才在問你啊我說政府呢,也是要往前推的嘛政府要往前推,所以政府是要往做的方向推嘛但是呢,到時候呢,他就說先往做的方向推是嗎,還是不一定不,慢慢,我不是說不一定你往前推,但是呢,你有一個最大的前提就是說要讓這些的,大家都能夠了解"},{"start":530.829,"end":559.401,"text":"這個是不是會涉及到很大的問題 那個是涉及宣導 那個沒問題那宣導是後面的事情 你的政策決定應該是有一個方向吧比如說我們對0到6歲國家養要不要做啊 這個是先有一個政策決定然後接著如果做的是分期是哪幾年做什麼事情 哪幾年做什麼事情因為央行是一個相當重要的單位吧 如果你自己這個單位都都沒有想要引領前進你下面這麼多銀行這個怎麼也是跟著政策走的啊"},{"start":559.921,"end":578.258,"text":"如果鼓勵電子支付鼓勵這種數位貨幣所以我想了解是您的政策方向或者說你們還是在我的政策方向我還是往前走啊我知道往前走你是要往左邊走啊往右邊走往南邊走啊往北邊走啊我跟委員報告啦最少最少你的研究的階段都要3年以上"},{"start":579.178,"end":600.81,"text":"對啦你給一個時間嘛所以說這個數位貨幣要不要推呢至少要先研究三年嘛你的意思說還是要研究研究三年以後才能決定這個往哪邊走可能做或是不做嘛這樣講可以嗎所以說非常的慢嘛數位時代什麼事情研究三年不就是非常的慢嗎"},{"start":601.73,"end":601.99,"text":"我我我我我"},{"start":618.075,"end":640.822,"text":"你所使用的技術呢可能就是說技術是一回事這個中華民國的技術應該是相當好我會為我們國家這個有信心我的意思是說政策方向其實才是重點啊如果照這個央行的總裁您的這個回答方法那個科技日新月異但是你一個政策需要研究三年我覺得這個應該在好的"},{"start":641.722,"end":644.003,"text":"我們的速度都比其他國家還快"},{"start":671.332,"end":686.062,"text":"所以你的意思是其他國家研究超過3年喔?有的,都做過了其他國家研究多久請你給我一份資料哪些國家研究超過3年世界先進國家從開始研究多久請你給我一份資料好嗎?好,謝謝你現在質詢請顏寬恆顏委員"}]}},{"id":"149893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313521ef217c9b2eb76c51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a632a903c5076b42da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:36:51 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11:42:11","影片長度":"00:05:20","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":320,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:42:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:36:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時36分）謝謝主席。部長跟中油董事長，有請，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長跟李董事長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。本席今天要稍微瞭解一下中油煉油廠遷廠的一些狀況，因為中油煉油廠在本席桃園第1選區，這個題目已經討論了二、三十年了，大家都在談這樣子的事情，我就開宗明義直接問，請董事長也好或者部長也好，誰回答都OK。從務實、規劃的角度而言，到底做不做得到遷廠這件事情？請回答。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上過去桃園市政府一直都很關心，包括地方人士都很關心……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["李董事長順欽：當時其實有一個先決條件，就是要先建後拆。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["李董事長順欽：先建後拆就是說建在哪裡，以及哪裡有地可以蓋煉油廠這個問題，所以其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度遷移的前提條件，目前桃油廠也針對公安、環保在做改善，包括跟地方共生這方面來做……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這一段我們待會再討論。我就問，講說先建後遷，現在在建的部分，你的覓地狀況現在有標的嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：因為每個地方評估起來都不適合，只要是在會上談到這個地方，當地的居民就……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都會反對，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：對，當地居民都反對。"],["牛委員煦庭：直觀都會遇到這樣的事情。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以現在都沒有任何標的，已經完全歸零，連庫存跟考量的點都沒有嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：所以現在我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，請中油會後提供現在如果有遷廠可能性的規劃、相關可能性的方案，好不好？因為今天我們時間有限。"],["李董事長順欽：是，好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們再往後談，當然我們也從世界趨勢開始談。請問部長，淨零碳排是不是世界趨勢？"],["王部長美花：當然是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以以經濟部的考量跟發展，未來我們在煉油的需求跟相關的部分，趨勢上來說，它是上漲的、還是下降？"],["王部長美花：一定是會下降的。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會下降，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。所以我們現在講，遷廠是大家講理想性比較高、可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策，這個本席願意理解，哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望它搬家，對不對？但是大家做事要務實，我也跟我的選民講，這事要執行起來是有困難的，所以大家可以從務實的角度來考量，也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在遷廠的議題上有具體的進展，可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢，另外也是基於廠區的活用，務實的做法是轉型，請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向，看看有沒有這個可能性，就是就地轉型，轉向綠色能源方面。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，綠色能源是其中一種，本席現在具體要求轉型的幾個方向，我們要為我們選區的選民請命。大家擔心第一個叫做高污染，第二個擔心它高危險。所以本席要求老舊的鍋爐如果基於世界的趨勢、煉油的需求在下降，就應該用退場的方式來處理。傳統以來都是用更新設備的方式處理，這是一種邏輯，可是如果它已經沒有這樣的需要、已經開始下修的時候，其實就是用部分退場、部分處理的方式來處理，就不要再新設設備。你要新設設備可以降低污染，這當然OK，但是老舊的、如果已經不堪使用的就直接退場，這樣子污染會下降，公共安全的問題也會下降，這是第一個。","第二個，導入綠能跟儲能相關比較進步的設備，也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向，也許是氫能或什麼東西、一些研究的設施，它相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載，某些層面也切合中油的轉型方向，這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展。","第三個是有關閒置用地的活化，如果既有的空間可以活用，可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共榮，完成敦親睦鄰。","以上這3個方向是本席藉由這一次質詢要具體要求的，希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究，會後要提供書面的資料讓本席來做參考，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：好，可以，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後再跟召委借一下下時間收個尾，好不好？最後一個是，桃園市政府現在跟中油應該定期地有聚會嘛？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就在討論轉型的具體配套措施。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調，本席希望這種東西應該透明化。我講敦親睦鄰很重要，讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛，才會讓大家安心，這是敦親睦鄰的一部分。所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的會報時間，我也希望中油跟周邊的社區里鄰長、議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間，讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：是，事實上我們跟當地的里長、還有相關的民意代表都有在……他們都理解。"],["牛委員煦庭：它可能要用更開放的方式來進行，廣納周邊居民的意見，我想這樣子才是做敦親睦鄰，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這部分請部長跟董事長多加研議，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：是，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來我們請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","林德福、林德福，林德福委員不在。","我們另外準備4分鐘給謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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大家都會反對對不對?對當地的 職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?"},{"start":98.674,"end":115.964,"text":"所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢"},{"start":120.601,"end":135.012,"text":"當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個"},{"start":137.253,"end":164.371,"text":"大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型"},{"start":166.093,"end":182.45,"text":"請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命"},{"start":184.813,"end":210.605,"text":"大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低"},{"start":211.826,"end":229.088,"text":"這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿"},{"start":229.548,"end":258.276,"text":"他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎"},{"start":259.156,"end":281.767,"text":"好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛"},{"start":282.947,"end":298.459,"text":"才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?"},{"start":302.262,"end":302.542,"text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}},{"id":"149892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135df5de5620329a2b4836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6753ba3a61f17f3475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:31:11 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plus晶片來驅動全產業創新，而且要強化新創孵育；樣樣項項都非常的正確，而且有遠見。在淨零科技的面向一樣有三個策略：第一，針對臺灣特性來訂定臺灣具發展潛力的淨零科技，而且以2030為目標，非常明確；第二，利用臺灣淨零轉型機會培養在地綠色供應鏈，這也非常的重要；最後一個，把握AI轉型契機，加速產業淨零與數位雙轉型。對於這樣的科技顧問會議能夠重新上路，您覺得這樣是不是非常值得、非常正確？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的持續關心，也再催生了科技顧問會議，臺灣在面對未來，事實上需要國際更多的傑出領袖一起來給我們做一些建議跟comment，的確這次針對半導體、AI……"],["吳委員思瑤：我已經看到非常具有願景、有vision的目標，你也知道我會問，你會擴充它的領域別嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：會！"],["吳委員思瑤：一年是開兩次，還是一次？"],["吳主任委員政忠：一年是一次。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那你下一個階段要擴充哪一個面向？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該是會把它全部布下來。"],["吳委員思瑤：OK，期待。"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上整個科技發展會跟所謂的STEEP有關，即社會、經濟、科技、政治跟環境。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，明年的全國科技顧問會議再行召開，我希望你也能夠繼續留在內閣的崗位上，為我們……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我會推薦新的委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也會大力推薦您持續領導我們，我個人真的看到您的願景很好！","另外，在我們科技顧問會議之下，今年緊鑼密鼓接力、接棒的就是第12次全國科學技術會議、全國的科技大會，但是我要提醒，本席一直在講的文化科技或是科技文化，從鄭麗君、李永得到史哲，文化科技施政綱領已經pending了1,262天，行政院還沒有核定，我知道這個計畫文化部是主要的主責機關，你們是協力者，但是您是科技的政委，我提醒在第12次全國科技技術會議裡頭能夠把文化技術、文化科技也納為一個討論的重點，我想這個做得到，也有利於我們在review文化科技施政綱領是不是要修正。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個可以，國科會目前正在安排這個……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝您的promise，所以科技導入可以用在強化臺灣的文化韌性，就是文化資產的修復，包括可以強化我們的文化近用，也可以包括我們的語言保存。TTA很重要，蔣萬安市長這段時間發給我們臺北市的立委厚厚的一疊公文，當中他提請跨黨派的立委來協助臺北市的建設發展，我非常同意，吳思瑤從以前到現在就是跨黨派在協助臺北市，我不會因為執政的市長是白的、是藍的而不替臺北發聲，No，吳思瑤永遠是替臺北發聲、超越黨派、走在最前面，但是我赫然發現蔣萬安市長發函要我們請中央來協助地方的事項有19個要修的法案、20個要爭取的預算項目，沒有我們努力這麼久的TTA新創基地來落腳北士科耶！上一次您跟我一起到北士科去現場考察了，我們也跟臺北市政府做成了會議方向的結論，在僅剩的北士科T3、T4的用地裡頭，用承租的方式或是專案讓售的方式讓我們的TTA有一個長治久安進駐的地點，而目前的結論似乎是臺北市願意再跟廠商在承租新的土地的地上權標案內容裡頭保留一層，需求是你們提的，大概1,400坪，然後每坪大概1,300元，這條件應當是你們談過的，但是進度到底怎麼樣？如果這個事情是這麼地方向明確，那為什麼蔣萬安市長在要求跨黨派的立委協助臺北的中央地方合作的時候就獨漏這一項？我要說蔣萬安市長你是新創市長就搞真的，不要把這件事情一直擱在那裡，這不是吳思瑤的credit，這是臺灣科技發展的需要，這是臺北市產業進步的需要，好，就這個案子你們的立場跟進度？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝吳委員的關心，事實上TTA在臺北小巨蛋已經……"],["吳委員思瑤：短期再承租7年嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：那的確也不是一個長久之計，如果臺北市有適合的地方，我去看了一下應該是滿好的地點之一。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們現在還有7年的時間可以來繼續下一個中長期的計畫，因為現在你們又再繼續續租小巨蛋，還被臺北市漲租金，每坪增加83塊，漲我們租金耶！好，我們勉為其難繼續租用，但未來長程的合作落腳在北士科，大家都搞了這麼久、看了這麼久，我會再次督促蔣萬安市長，新創市長就玩真的，不要打假球！那國科會準備好了嗎？我們加強跟他們洽談好嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個應該對臺北市也是一個plus。"],["吳委員思瑤：那say yes，我們不管臺北市怎麼樣delay，我們不會放棄、思瑤不會放棄，I am watching you all，OK。"],["吳主任委員政忠：OK，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：加油，謝謝，謝謝主席給我時間，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳思瑤委員。","我們接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.419093750000002,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.65096875,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.73034375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.05096875,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.10159375,"end":34.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.43034375,"end":37.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.38784375,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.66971875,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.26346875,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.477843750000005,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.75284375,"end":136.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.43596875,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.25596875000002,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.45409375,"end":162.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.75659375,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.06034375000002,"end":163.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.47346875000002,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.49034375000002,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.55784375000002,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.57471875000002,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.27034375000002,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.99971875,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.65784375,"end":184.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.85034375,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.78596875000002,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.60721875000002,"end":254.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.13034375,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.19784375,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.45034375,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.89534375,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":282.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":324.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.16659375,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.98409375,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.97971875,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.91596875000005,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.94096875,"end":334.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.98284375000003,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.02409375,"end":368.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.04096875000005,"end":387.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.05784375,"end":368.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.09909375,"end":374.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.16659375,"end":374.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.30159375000005,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.03784375000004,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.04596875000004,"end":400.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.03159375,"end":408.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.79846875000004,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.11034375,"end":421.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.81034375,"end":413.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.50096875,"end":454.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.45409375,"end":425.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.54971875,"end":433.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":452.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.30596875000003,"end":457.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.71471875000003,"end":466.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.32096875,"end":467.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.24909375000004,"end":469.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.14346875,"end":468.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.40471875000003,"end":470.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.109,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主委"},{"start":27.858,"end":49.884,"text":"吳委員長非常開心可以回來教文委員會看看大家對思瑤姐姐會無所不在大家沒有辦法逃離我的watch了解了解好今天因為我只有4分鐘我會努力兩個主題就是我長期在監督的文化科技的跨域合作還有TTA進駐北市科好下一頁"},{"start":51.514,"end":73.105,"text":"在本席的不斷的倡議之下也謝謝主委謝謝政委科技顧問制度科技顧問會議在去年12月再重新召開了那個時候我們都忙於選舉但是我也有持續follow那我確實看到在我們八位國內外的科技專家共同進入三天深度的討論確實為我們未來台灣的科技發展定矛定方向"},{"start":78.908,"end":101.497,"text":"半導體跟AI的部分做出了三個策略的結論第一個是加強培育人才第二個加速應用技術的發展第三個要以生成式AI Plus晶片來驅動全產業的創新而且要強化新創的服務 樣樣相向都非常的正確而且有遠見"},{"start":102.657,"end":127.396,"text":"在近鄰科技的面向一樣有三個策略要針對臺灣特性來定定臺灣具發展潛力的近鄰科技而且以2030為目標非常明確第二呢利用臺灣近鄰轉型的機會要培養在地的綠色供應鏈這也非常的重要最後一個把握AI的轉型契機加速產業近鄰以數位雙轉型那您對於這樣的科技顧問會議能夠重新上路"},{"start":132.96,"end":154.454,"text":"您覺得這樣是不是非常值得、非常正確?謝謝委員持續關心也在催生的科技顧問會議的確台灣在面對未來需要國際更多的傑出領袖一起來給我們做一些建議跟comment的確這一次針對半逃離AI科學"},{"start":154.534,"end":182.56,"text":"我已經看到非常就是有願景有vision的好那你也知道我會問那你會擴充他的領域別嗎會一年是開兩次還是一次好那你下一個階段要擴充哪一個面向應該是會把他全部布下來了OK好期待實際上我在這個這個整個科技的發展會跟所謂STEEP好從社會經濟科技政治跟"},{"start":183.26,"end":184.06,"text":"我個人真的看到您的願景很好 下一頁"},{"start":201.046,"end":217.299,"text":"另外在我們科技顧問會議之下今年緊鑼密鼓接力接棒的就是第12次的全國科學技術會議全國的科技大會但是我要提醒本席一直在講的文化科技或是科技文化"},{"start":218.941,"end":232.471,"text":"從鄭麗君到李永德到施哲文化科技施政綱領已經Pending了1262天行政院還沒有核定我知道這個計畫的主責文化部是"},{"start":233.251,"end":254.363,"text":"主要的主責機關你們是協力者但是您是科技的政委我提醒在第12次全國科技技術會議裡頭能夠把文化技術文化科技也納為一個討論的重點我想這個做得到也有利於我們在review文化科技施政綱領是不是要修正"},{"start":255.322,"end":278,"text":"這個可以 這個我國科會目前正在安排這個好 那謝謝您的promise所以科技導入可以用在強化台灣的文化韌性就是文化資產的修復包括可以做強化我們的文化禁用也可以包括我們的語言保存來下一頁TTA很重要蔣萬安市長這段時間發給我們臺北市的立委厚厚的一疊公文"},{"start":282.763,"end":299.473,"text":"當中他提請跨黨派的立委來協助臺北市的建設發展我非常同意吳思瑤從以前到現在就是跨黨派在協助臺北市我不會因為執政的市長是白的是藍的而我不替臺北發聲NO吳思瑤永遠是替臺北發聲超越黨派走在最前面但是我赫然發現蔣萬安市長發函要我們請臺北"},{"start":307.377,"end":324.502,"text":"請中央來協助地方的事項有19個要修的法案20個要爭取的預算項目沒有我們努力這麼久的TTA新創基地來落腳北市科欸下一頁所以您下一頁我謝謝您下一頁下一頁好回到前一頁"},{"start":331.457,"end":354.157,"text":"來下一頁好錯了好下一頁上一次您跟我一起到北市科去現場考察了我們也跟台北市政府做成了會議方向的結論在謹慎的北市科T3 T4的用地裡頭用承租的方式或是專案讓售的方式讓我們的TTA有一個長治久安進駐的地點而目前的結論下一頁"},{"start":355.658,"end":369.989,"text":"似乎是願意臺北市願意再跟廠商在租新的土地的地上全的標案內容裡頭保留一層需求是你們提的大概1400坪然後每坪大概1300元這條件應當是你們談過的但是進度到底怎麼樣"},{"start":374.432,"end":399.767,"text":"如果這個事情是這麼的方向明確那為什麼蔣萬安市長在要求跨黨派的立委協助臺北的周洋地方合作的時候就獨露這一下我要說蔣萬安市長你是新創市長就搞真的不要把這件事情一直擱在那裡這不是吳思瑤的credit這是臺灣科技發展的需要這是臺北市產業進步的需要好就這個案子你們的立場跟進度"},{"start":402.516,"end":420.062,"text":"謝謝吳委員的關心事實上TTA在臺北小巨蛋已經短期在成都7年那的確也不是一個長久之計那如果臺北市有適合的地方這個我去看了一下應該是蠻好的一個地點"},{"start":421.362,"end":429.766,"text":"好 我們現在還有7年的時間可以來繼續下一個中長期的計劃因為現在你們又在繼續續租小巨蛋還被台北市起這個租金每坪增加83塊降我們租金好 我們勉為其難繼續租用但未來長城的合作落腳在北市科大家都搞了這麼久看了這麼久我會再次督促蔣萬安市長新創市長就完真的不要打假球"},{"start":450.035,"end":453.556,"text":"國科會準備好了嗎?我們加強跟他們洽談,好嗎?這個應該是對台北市會議也是一個plus。我們不管台北市怎麼樣的delay,我們不會放棄。私咬不會放棄。I am watching you all, ok?加油,謝謝,謝謝主席給我時間,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135c59873105e51ca6e51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6f7d8ca10ff378d0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:32:09 - 11:36:35","影片長度":"00:04:26","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":266,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:36:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:32:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時32分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席因為昨天一不小心名字跳過沒有質詢到，所以我今天還是利用這4分鐘跟您討論一下調漲電價的問題。我相信部長很清楚電價的調漲，它不只是調漲電價，而是整個社會結構中很重要的一環，也就是電價漲起來，會讓我們的物價一波一波的漲，就像海浪一樣一波一波的，我們如果沒有做好配套，它會變成驚濤駭浪，我們整個的物價通膨，我覺得我們的民眾會受不了。我看到你們的報告裡面也有特別寫到，你們在2022年到2023年有一些配套，但是那些配套主要第一個它的基期比較低，你說它的營業額創歷史新高，其實過去是因為疫情的關係，所以比較上它比較低，它本來營業額就低。第二個，如果這個配套這2年覺得已經給民眾有緩衝了，可是這次漲電價如果沒有做好配套，那你是讓民眾連本帶利一次又要還給你。首先本席第一個問題想請教，您有提到希望行政院可以補助1,500億，不知道您目前有沒有把握？現在的情況怎麼樣？"],["王部長美花：院裡面試算的結果還沒有確定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還沒確定？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那您可以積極地為民眾爭取嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，那當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第二個本席也想特別講的就是，我們的配套裡面除了我們讓它緩之外，我們希望漲電價的配套能夠包含薪資調漲，因為對於年輕人及很多弱勢而言，電價一漲，萬物齊漲，他們會受不了，他們本來生活就比較辛苦了。所以如果可以薪資先漲，然後我們再來調電價，這樣會不會比較好？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個部分您和行政院有沒有這個方向的規劃？"],["王部長美花：我想院裡面會通盤去檢討，對台電來講，事實上跟其它國家比起來，台電就是一直為了物價的部分在緩漲，甚至造成現在這麼大的虧損。跟其它國家比起來，其它國家確實都在反映……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個本席瞭解，主要在於您是經濟部長，漲電價也是您所屬的單位這邊在漲，所以整個的配套我們希望部長跟行政院是不是可以讓薪資調漲的部分走在前面？"],["王部長美花：相關的部分，去年最低工資的審議有增加嘛，院裡面其實也都有在提升國內的薪資水準。"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對這一波漲電價，本席指的是針對這波漲電價，我們要做好配套，它絕對不是只有電價的問題。本席也在這邊表達，我們認同我們的電價或台電的虧損，該漲要漲，還有，我們的電價稍微貴一點，也讓民眾養成節約能源的習慣，本席都支持，但是我們就是怕對社會的衝擊太大，很多人受不了，包括我們的年輕人還有弱勢族群，不要讓這個社會貧者愈貧、富者愈富，所以薪資的配套請部長跟行政院還是能夠積極來進行。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以喔？"],["王部長美花：我們會積極爭取相關撥補的部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝部長。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","接下來我們請羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們請牛委員煦庭發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個本席了解,本席主要是說因為您是經濟部長,然後漲電價也是您所屬的單位這邊在漲,所以這整個的配套我們希望部長跟行政院這裡是不是可以在薪資調漲的部分可以走在前面。"},{"start":196.498,"end":210.804,"text":"相關的這個部分那去年才這個最低工資的這個審議才有在有增加那這個部分是院裡面其實也都有在提升國內的這個薪資水準是"},{"start":211.864,"end":215.967,"text":"本席指的是這波漲電價我們針對這個漲電價我們要做好配套他絕對不是只有電價的問題本席也在這邊表達就是我們認同我們的電價或是我們台電虧損我們該漲要漲還有"},{"start":231.317,"end":255.325,"text":"我們的電價稍微貴一點也讓民眾養成節約能源的習慣本席都支持但是我們就是怕對社會的衝擊太大很多人受不了我們的年輕年輕人還有弱勢族群不要讓這個社會平者易平富者易富所以這個薪資的配套我們請部長這裡跟行政院能夠還是能夠積極來進行"},{"start":257.346,"end":258.707,"text":"是是是,我們會爭取,積極爭取相關的撥補的部分。好,謝謝部長,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135680de7d0f46de3eb08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a60665fd020f2568485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:27:46 - 11:35:44","影片長度":"00:07:58","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":478,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:35:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:27:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1299,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時28分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，想邀請部長跟化學署謝署長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好，署長。我們知道食品非法添加蘇丹紅是現在重大的食安事故，從懷疑紅色的辣椒粉安全性到多種原料混合咖哩粉，到後來消費者自己也害怕了，連白色的胡椒粉也產生戒心。現在有很多地方政府採用預防性的下架措施，教育局也暫停使用相關產品在營養午餐，這是必要的保障孩童的安全；但是另外一面，也造成合法供應商或是餐飲業的損失，就是管控造成這樣的問題。所以本席要請教部長，這是不是我們的化學物質管理漏洞呢？你的源頭管理為什麼會這麼失靈呢？後續你要怎麼樣去補強源頭管理？請做說明。"],["薛部長富盛：跟楊委員報告，這個標題事實上是不妥，因為化學署……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼會不妥呢？人家都已經預防性下架了，你沒有資格去批評、反質詢說這個標語妥不妥，而是你要去說明，你要用你的內容去告訴民眾要如何放心，它已經預防性下架，你還直接講這個……"],["薛部長富盛：楊委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席邀請你上來，是要聽你專業的立場，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來就失靈，才會產生預防性的下架，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：給楊委員報告，化學署在負責我們化學雲，我們做源頭管理，事實上蘇丹紅是環境部27種、34項毒化物裡的一種，它不能加到食品裡面去，我們在過去這6、7年來，國內並沒有系統性把27種的毒化物添加到食品的案例，都沒有，這一次的蘇丹紅事件……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席問你，現在已經產生這樣的現象，你要怎麼樣去預防調整你們的腳步，這是本席要聽的。"],["薛部長富盛：基本上我們在這一塊，事實上在化學原料的部分給食藥署，告訴他們說過去這一年來進口的蘇丹紅色素有39家，這39家都取得環境部化學署的運作核可，他們去年總共才進口101克，使用才41克，所以並沒有流去做食品添加物的這一塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這麼回答讓我們更緊張了，市面上已經產生這樣的現象，政府的主管機關單位告訴我們是沒有的，那它是從哪裡掉下來的呢？"],["薛部長富盛：楊委員，那個是辣椒粉從中國製造運到臺灣來，所以事實上是在海關把關，在去年抽驗從20%開始一直到去年底就100%去檢驗了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個部分我們也跟另外一個薛部長討論過，已經發生那麼嚴重的問題結果還是20%，等到嚴重了它才變50%，等到非常、非常、非常全面性的時候，它才變成100%，所以他自己也承認是速度慢了點。本席之所以跟你提出這樣的議題，也就是說一個政府的橫向組織必須嚴密的，要怎麼樣以專業的立場去告訴民眾可以安心，這是我們今天質詢的重點。所以本席要跟你討論的也就是從112年8月底，57種的食安疑慮化學物質當中還有20種，對不對？謝署長，還有20種你沒有辦法以物質法的方式去納管，那你現在是用暫不列管或者是暫緩列管或者是回歸衛福部去管，是不是如此？請做說明。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，我們一直陸陸續續把它檢討，用毒管法公告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你現在還有20種呀！"],["謝署長燕儒：這裡的20種其實這些廠商本來就要跟經濟部申報，所以這些還是有申報資料，所以我們化學雲這邊也會把它匡進來，因為這裡面又有17項跟食品添加物是同品項，其實東西是一樣，只是它身分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在講到重點了，部長，你們的署長好！他講到重點，也就是人民已經碰到困難，那政府各部門要怎樣去橫向聯繫。因此我要告訴部長，我們目前符合列管的初衷，我相信大家都希望把它做好，同仁也辛苦，但問題是我們產生了這個問題，也就是出了問題就說督促業主自主管理啊，但是我覺得這樣政府不對，你有權力應該就要去執行之。"],["薛部長富盛：是！包括稽核。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此你整個化學物質的流向、儲存、標示跟販賣，還有20項目前是沒有聚在你的法律約束裡頭，所以在這樣的情況之下會有漏洞，57種裡頭你們目前還有20種沒有納進來，本席希望你們再去討論可以怎麼樣。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你如果從源頭我們才會安心啊，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把你們討論的結果告訴本席。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，我給你功課，你書面資料給本席就好。歐洲議會跟歐盟理事會在2022年12月13號已經達成共識，2023年10月1號開始要實施碳邊境的調整機制，也就是CBAM的申報，2026年要開始課這個關稅，在這樣的情況之下，包括在生產過程、運輸過程當中所產生的直接排放，這些以及上下游供應鏈間接排放都納入在它要課的範圍之內。這對於我們的企業來講，在歐盟部分我們是以鋼鐵業為主，螺絲帽……"],["薛部長富盛：是，螺絲螺帽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：鋼線鋼纜、模具，我們的模具最厲害！那在這樣的情況之下，我們很多中小企業在出口的時候會碰到這麼大的困難，所以本席要請你輔導這些老闆在碳盤查以及申報過程如何可以簡化。一旦歐盟確定……它一定會課嘛，一旦它課的時候，那麼我方要怎麼樣跟國際接軌？我們環境部雖然腳程慢了一點，我們還是希望……你們明天要開會，要趕快！因為人家都已經拿出時間點了，我們還不知道我的足跡在哪裡、我要怎麼課？對不對？所以我給你這個功課，我會繼續追，你把你們明天開會預計要怎麼做、怎麼協助我們的中小企業，告訴我們方案，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以，謝謝楊委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","我們現在要處理臨時提案，總共有5案，請一併宣讀。","一、","根據環境部規劃，碳費將於民國113年開始徵收，首場碳費審議會也將本（113）年3月15號舉行，各界關心碳費機制上路恐會造成「綠色通膨」，主計總處也將「減碳政策對國內經濟與物價之影響」納入通膨的不確定因素中，主計長朱澤民更曾表示，一旦開徵碳費，勢必提高企業成本，可能發生轉嫁效應，進而影響物價。時值台灣電力公司擬在4月全面調漲電價，各界擔心可能再帶動拉高物價，碳費機制的實施恐使物價漲幅雪上加霜，衝擊民生經濟，但環境部過往公告竟僅以「業者訂價應多方思考，不應藉此哄抬產品價格」徒托空言，無助控制物價調漲。薛富盛部長曾表示，擬將消費者物價指數（CPI）納入碳費費率考量，以避免引發物價波動，然《碳費費率審議會設置要點》第9條碳費考量因素，條文中除溫室氣體、排放量以及減量等環境因素外，僅有一概括性質之「其他相關因素」，並於條文說明表示包含經濟影響評估為依據，實過於籠統草率，且未能明確律定審議委員會應考量通膨與經濟衝擊，爰此提案要求環境部儘速修改該要點，明定消費者物價指數（CPI）或相關經濟指標為審議因素，以期確保穩定民生物價，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　涂權吉　　","二、","有鑑於環境部於112年12月，宣示將對新設SRF製造廠加強品質規範與管理，針對既設廠將規劃執行稽查輔導專案計畫，檢視料源、製造及使用各環節是否符合規定，並要求落實SRF採樣及檢測，以確保製造品質。惟經查，目前環境部資源循環署「資源回收處理衍生廢棄物」媒合去化平台，提供之SRF製造廠名單中僅有兩家業者提供SRF檢測報告，顯示環境部未能要求業者落實SRF採樣及檢測，對於製造廠之品質管控難以發揮成效。","爰要求環境部於一個月內，將「針對SRF製造廠之稽查輔導專案計畫」執行狀況，以及加強落實SRF採樣及檢測之具體策進作為，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　涂權吉　　陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　","三、","有鑑於環保先進國家之廢棄物管理政策，已走向資源循環利用，可燃廢棄資源燃料化（Solid Recovered Fuel,SRF），亦為目前國際發展趨勢，惟我目前相關管理制度及標準，仍未跟上國際腳步，對於日益增加的SRF製造廠及發電廠，包括前端選址設廠、場內製程設備以及後端污染排放控制，應加強管理措施，導致SRF製造廠及發電廠之品質參差不齊，相關污染難以預防，損害附近居民之權益。","環境部雖於112年預告修正「公私場所固定污染源應符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料」、「公私場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例及成分標準」、及「鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準」3項修正草案，僅為後端污染管控，仍缺乏對前端設廠時之管理措施，且三項修正草案目前仍未正式公告施行，為強化我國對SRF製造廠及發電廠之管制度及標準，爰要求環境部於一個月內提出相關排放標準草案，並會同經濟部，針對SRF製造廠及發電廠，於二個月內研擬管理機制，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　涂權吉　　陳菁徽　　盧縣一","四、","國際權威科學期刊《Nature》一篇空污與肺腺癌的關係，指出「台灣肺腺癌罹患率全球第一」、「空污害台人罹肺癌是國外3到5倍」。高雄興達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠所排出的廢氣，以及隔著東港溪的林園化工工業區所產生的空污，隨著中央山脈尾端一路向南飄，影響所及，沿山公路東側的三地門、瑪家、泰武、來義、春日，西側的內埔、萬巒、潮州、新埤、佳冬、枋寮、枋山，常是一片紫爆。","據全國空氣污染排放清冊資料顯示，屏東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於鄰近縣市，來自高雄地區上風處的污染來源是造成屏東空氣品質不良主因，高雄市工廠數是屏東縣的六倍多，屏東縣空氣品質不良的天數常居全國第一，約有三分一的污染源來自高雄，但屏東所分配的空污防制費卻遠低於高雄。","為減緩屏東居民健康威脅與改善生活環境，爰要求環境部於一個月內，研議提高屏東補助標準與高雄相同，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告，是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　涂權吉　　陳菁徽","五、","國際權威科學期刊《Nature》一篇空污與肺腺癌的關係，指出「台灣肺腺癌罹患率全球第一」、「空污害台人罹肺癌是國外3到5倍」。高雄興達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠所排出的廢氣，以及隔著東港溪的林園化工工業區所產生的空污，隨著中央山脈尾端一路向南飄，影響所及，沿山公路東側的三地門、瑪家、泰武、來義、春日，西側的內埔、萬巒、潮州、新埤、佳冬、枋寮、枋山，常是一片紫爆。據全國空氣污染排放清冊資料顯示，屏東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於鄰近縣市，來自高雄地區上風處的污染來源是造成屏東空氣品質不良主因。","空污細小微粒進入到人體後，會隨血液四處擴散累積，因此血液通過的心臟、腦部，許多疾病都已證實與空污高度相關；婦產科權威、彰化基督教醫院醫師葉光芃研究，空污與婦科疾病如乳癌「有絕對關係」。","為預防屏東居民面臨健康威脅，爰要求環境部於一個月內，研議補助設籍屏東居民全身健康檢查經費，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告，是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　涂權吉　　陳菁徽"],["主席：請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["薛部長富盛：有的，第1案剛剛已經跟3位委員討論過，我們把第8行「但環境部過往公告竟僅以」一直到第10行的「控制物價調漲」為止，第8、9、10行這裡把它劃掉。"],["主席：好，陳委員……"],["薛部長富盛：接下來倒數第5行的後面「實過於籠統草率」整個劃掉；然後「且未能」改成「應」明確律定審議委員會，後面一樣；下一行「提案要求」劃掉，改成：爰此「請」環境部，接下來劃掉一直到消費者物價指數（CPI），這個我再唸一下，「爰此請環境部將消費者物價指數（CPI）或相關經濟指標納為審議因素，以期確保穩定民生物價，是否有當？敬請公決。」大概就這樣子。"],["主席：好，請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，我們剛剛有溝通，我是可以接受，但是定價應多方思考還有……這個都是他們自己發布的新聞稿裡面的內容，所以我還是希望在你們明天開審議會時作為討論費率的重點，因為目前你們列出的重點幾乎都是跟你們的專業還有科學相關的，但是民生經濟最關心的這些希望如同你之前的新聞稿一樣把它列進去，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：在執行面上，我們會請委員多方面思考，不要只單純考慮碳費。我剛剛也講過，事實上我們應該通盤考量國內其他各個因素，畢竟我們的目標是減碳，這是最重要的目標，而不是收碳費，這才是我們的精髓，謝謝。"],["主席：我們就照文字修正通過，謝謝。","第2案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，第2案我們建議做一些文字修正。就是在第一段後面「顯示環境部未能要求業者落實……難以發揮成效」，這兩段刪掉。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：剛剛有跟委員溝通過。"],["主席：王委員不在，涂權吉委員……還是我們先討論第3案，等一下再回過頭來討論第2案。","第3案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟主席報告，我們建議做文字修正。第一段倒數第三行「皆缺乏有效管理措施」改為「應加強管理措施」。另外，第二段倒數第三行「爰要求環境部於3個月內提出相關排放標準，修正之具體時程，並會同經濟部，針對SRF製造場及發電廠研擬……」修正文字變成「研擬管理機制，向立法院社環委員會提出書面報告」。"],["主席：請問第3案提案委員有沒有意見？"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝主席。針對這部分，應該要求環境部於1個月內提出相關修正後之排放標準，而不是排放標準，又再修正後的具體時程。因為就是要你1個月提出，不用再討論具體時程。所以應該就是直接提出修正後之排放標準，等於在1個月內提出修正排放標準。"],["張司長順欽：不好意思，我們會先預告，也就是提出來的是預告版本，就我們討論怎麼……"],["涂委員權吉：對，1個月內提出修正，因為現在已經有排放標準了，只是我要你們提出修正後之排放標準。"],["張司長順欽：但成分標準要先出來，後面才能跟著公告……"],["涂委員權吉：所以不是修正後之具體時程，不是時程，因為已經講好1個月。等於要在1個月內提出修正後之排放標準。至於後面管理機制的時間上有問題嗎？管理機制1個月來不及嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對，管理機制是不是可以3個月？"],["涂委員權吉：3個月？可以再早一點嗎？2個月？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：可以，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["主席：是不是請行政單位將剛剛修正文字的部分念一遍？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：在第3案的部分，第一段後段修正為「及後端管制標準應落實管理措施」；第二段部分，倒數第四行「爰要求環境部於1個月內提出相關的修正後排放標準，並會同經濟部針對SRF製造場及發電廠，於2個月內研擬管理機制，向立法院社環委員會提出書面報告」。"],["涂委員權吉：更改的部分是上面你說，把「缺乏」改「需加強」是不是？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是。"],["涂委員權吉：然後再來就是1個月內提出修正之排放標準？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：修正之標準草案。"],["涂委員權吉：修正之標準草案？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是。"],["涂委員權吉：然後再來就是研擬完善管理機制，於2個月內提出？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對。"],["主席：針對文字修正部分，涂委員可以嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["主席：那就照文字修正通過。","我們現在是不是回到第2案？剛剛第2案，涂委員？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有關第2案，我們是建議文字修正第二段後面兩句話「顯示環境未能落實」及「品質管控難以發揮」建議刪除。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["主席：那就照文字修正通過。","接下來第4案。"],["張司長順欽：跟主席報告，第4案倒數第二行「研議改善空氣污染之作法，向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出書面報告」，建議做這樣的修訂。"],["主席：蘇委員是不是有意見？"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝主席。第4案、第5案都有牽連，所以我要再三強調，環境部經費越來越多，你們是執政，我們是在野，要怎麼用是你們的想法，要怎麼做我們都尊重。重點是屏東百姓沒有享受到好處，天天都在忍受空污！我們用肺在發電，供給能量與電力給中北部，一點公平性都沒有！剛剛溝通的結果，我們希望能夠落實，至於要用研究案或補助案，不管怎麼做我都尊重，但是要落實！我一定會盯得緊緊的，好不好？"],["主席：是不是就照文字修正通過？第4案就照文字修正通過。","第5案。"],["張司長順欽：報告主席，第5案倒數第二段後面「婦產科權威……」到結束，剛剛委員辦公室同意這段刪掉。最後一段，建議改為「研議敏弱族群室內空氣品質改善強化，向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出書面報告」，做這樣的文字修正。"],["主席：蘇委員？可以，第5案照文字修正通過。","接下來我們開始質詢，臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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11:34:17","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":628,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:34:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:23:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時23分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，今天你這份報告開頭就說到以常態化灰色地帶侵擾，並用認知作戰打擊與混淆國際視聽，企圖片面改變臺海現狀，升高區域衝突。這是您對近來我們兩岸之間一個狀況的描述。所以我認為，部長你之前說會睡不著覺，這是對國家安全的憂心，這也是國防部長的責任感，對這一點我表示肯定。","但是我有個感覺，不知道部長有沒有同樣的感覺，我覺得我最近已經質詢了快20場的質詢，各部會相關的官員我感覺到好像眾人皆睡你獨醒，你有沒有這個感覺？"],["邱部長國正：不會。我跟委員報告，不會這樣子。"],["羅委員智強：不會？那我來講，整個行政團隊我質詢過行政院長陳建仁、海委會主委管碧玲、陸委會主委邱太三，甚至國安局局長蔡明彥都說，目前沒有任何情資顯示臺海緊張情勢有持續升高，而且他強調他有在睡覺。為什麼大家可以睡得很好，就你一個人醒得很痛苦呢？"],["邱部長國正：委員給我一點時間，我對您說明，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：請說。"],["邱部長國正：國軍考量事情有徵候以後、有事情以後，有很多假定事項，但假定事項都是從最壞的來打算，想著要做最壞打算，以便於我們做最好的準備。立場、背景不一樣，所以我有這種考量，並不是沒有這種考量就是不憂國憂民。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長講，我就是肯定你這樣的憂國憂民、做最壞打算，其他部會真的好像都在做最好打算。我要再問，三立有一則獨家新聞，總統府高層說你是自走砲，還致電給你要瞭解你發言的原意，而且你的屢屢爭議發言讓府方很頭痛。我想問第一個、你認同自走砲這個批評嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有意見，人家給我取什麼外號、他著眼如何，我都沒有意見，他是什麼出發點，我也不瞭解。但我要跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：就是謗言由人，但我心自在。"],["邱部長國正：對。但到目前為止沒有人問過我，為什麼要這樣發言、為什麼要那樣發言。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛講過我質詢過很多官員，我感覺好像天下本太平、自走砲自擾之，習近平喊和平，大家一起安心睡。最近有個討論的話題是，因為習近平重申和平統一，所以很多人就說，你看他都喊和平統一了，和平就代表就不會動武。我想請問您是這樣嗎？你相信習近平嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有什麼相信不相信。但我在國軍部隊裡面待久了以後，有件事情絕對是定律，即不會因為人家一句話而改變了自己的初衷。因為和平，我們就不要戰備了嗎？不會！或因為有和平，所以我們就比較鬆懈嗎？不會！我在這一方面有滿好的、跟國軍同仁一樣的大原則絕對抓住，不會因為人家一句話就改變我們自己、放鬆或緊繃了，所以也不會因為人家講一句話，我就變很緊張、整個方寸就亂了。我想這是很重要的。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得部長的態度是正確的，你也不能因為習近平一句話，喊和平統一，好像就太平無事一樣，該要做的準備當然是要做。","下一個我就要問您，因為今天您的報告是面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為，可是我發現全篇報告隻字未提美國、日本，意思是在面對中共常態化的侵擾威脅，日本跟美國因素不重要嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是不重要，但我們絕不指望，因為他到底會採取什麼樣反應或動作，我們完全不知道，所以我們不能認為他會如何，這樣的話，有違我們國軍建軍備戰的概念，好像設定一個不知道的未來。人家講得很好，以不知道這個狀況來假定它必然發生，這是不對的。"],["羅委員智強：可是事實上政府歷次兵推也會把美國的狀況考量進去，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：最起碼軍事當中的兵推我沒有遇過這個狀況。"],["羅委員智強：我是說整個政府在做所謂的兩岸兵推，會不會把美國跟日本因素考慮進去？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，因為每個層次不同，所以為什麼會對我有什麼評論，我是完全站在軍事立場來設想。"],["羅委員智強：我就從軍事立場來請教部長，坦白講，過去我看到民進黨的朋友不斷暗示跟明示，臺海有事，美日不會坐視。如果中共真的採取我們最不想要的結果──武力犯臺，你覺得美國會介入嗎？日本會介入嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，所以我一再強調我們沒有這種想定，就代表我不能夠預判。我講的很多軍事術語，雖然聽來好像很古板，但滿受用的，要以不可見之力把極可能之害給彌補掉，那是絕對的錯誤。"],["羅委員智強：我這樣問好了，我們就拿烏克蘭戰爭來類比。烏俄開戰，美國跟歐洲各國都有聲援，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：有。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員智強：第一個等級就是譴責俄國，就歐洲幾個國家跟美國都譴責俄國，對不對？第二個等級是經濟制裁，祭出很多經濟制裁的措施。第三個等級是提供武器跟軍事援助，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員智強：可是到目前為止有沒有到第四個等級，就是派兵參戰？"],["邱部長國正：我剛剛講口惠、實惠，我們從來都沒有考慮過，口惠好像旁邊的啦啦隊一樣喊一喊，換成我也喊一喊加油，到底有沒有實惠？這是很重要的。"],["羅委員智強：部長完全知道我要問什麼。"],["邱部長國正：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：就是前面譴責其實只是一種口惠。"],["邱部長國正：對，只是一種口惠。"],["羅委員智強：當然經濟制裁、提供武器軍事援助也還是具有實質，可是在很多討論當中都把它界定到最後一個等級派兵參戰。實際上之前日本官房長官就說過一段話，我看部長也有回應，他說他不能認同臺灣有事、日本有事的觀點，他認為兩岸如果爆發戰爭，日本協防臺灣可能面臨重大的損失，所以臺灣不應期待日本協防臺灣。這句話其實指的不只是日本，也包括美國因素，所以在你的戰備考量之下，我們就是自己國家自己救，您是這樣說，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：我一直這樣認為。"],["羅委員智強：接下來請教部長，您知道2021年疫情期間有位網友在PTT上辱罵陳時中，攻擊臺灣防疫而且散播親中言論，還很可惡要大家移除衛福部的 LINE帳號「疾管家」。我想請問您，這算不算是有利中共、不利臺灣的訊息？"],["邱部長國正：剛剛幾位委員也有問到，我們的界定就是發表言論利於敵方、不利於我方，我們就認為他是在地……"],["羅委員智強：你覺得這個訊息算不算利於敵方、不利於我方？"],["邱部長國正：當然也算是，但到底有沒有這樣，我不去界定……"],["羅委員智強：所以他就是在地協力者嘛？"],["邱部長國正：對。但是不是有違反了什麼規定，那不是我的責任。"],["羅委員智強：王定宇痛批這是大陸滲透 PTT、搞認知作戰，而且網友收錢擾亂臺灣，蔡英文在臉書也附和王定宇。可是你知道最後被查出來，這一起王定宇所謂中共擾亂臺灣事件的這個網友是范雲的學生、綠營的寫手──林瑋豐自導自演，他的老婆還是當時民進黨媒體社群中心副主任。我想請問林瑋豐是不是您定義的中共在地協力者？"],["邱部長國正：這個人我不認得，我對一個不認得的人沒辦法去評論。"],["羅委員智強：當然。照這個標準，林瑋豐就是中共在地協力者，而背後跟民進黨有千絲萬縷的關係，所以民進黨也是中共在地協力者嗎？部長，前面其實我都很肯定你，但您這句話，說真的，我覺得講得不夠精確。因為很多東西沒辦法馬上用所謂的有利、不利來判準，還是要回到法律的標準來看，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：沒錯，是。"],["羅委員智強：實質上，我也贊成犯法就抓去關，所以請部長以後這類型的說法可能要更精確一點點。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。那天我在院會報告，我有講這句話：「至於如何界定，這不是國防部的能力範圍，要經過檢調單位」。我也沒有什麼事後諸葛，我當初不知道，他直接問我，我的反應好像就變成……支持者……對他有利，而他就是他的支持者，這沒什麼好疑問的，但他有沒有因為支持某人危害我們，就由檢調單位去判斷。特別跟委員說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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不會我跟委員報不會這樣子不會齁 那我來講齁這個整個行政團隊我也執行過行政院長這個陳建仁我們管委會海委會的主委管碧玲"},{"start":72.297,"end":90.286,"text":"邱泰山陸委會主委甚至國安局局長蔡明彥都說目前沒有任何情資顯示臺海緊張情勢有持續升高而且他強調他有在睡覺那為什麼大家可以睡得很好那你一個人就醒得很痛苦呢"},{"start":90.686,"end":116.503,"text":"我跟委員給我一點時間,我對您要做說明好不好?國軍考量事情有真後以後,有事情以後還有很多假定事項但這個假定事項都是從最壞的來做一個打算所以我們想要做最壞的打算以便於我們做最好的準備所以這個立場、背景不一樣所以我有這種考量,我並不認為假定事項沒有這種考量就是好像不憂國憂民"},{"start":121.146,"end":147.185,"text":"做最壞打算所以我也要講其他部會真的好像都在做最好打算的感覺那我要再問三立有一個獨家新聞他說總統府高層說你是自走炮還致電給你來要去了解你的發言原意而且你的屢屢爭議發言讓府方很頭痛我想問第一個你認同自走炮這個批評嗎"},{"start":148.166,"end":170.822,"text":"我沒有意見,因為人家給我取什麼外號,他左眼如何我都沒有意見啊,他的什麼出發點我也不瞭解,但我要跟委員報告,但我跟委員報告,到目前為止沒有人問我,你為什麼要這樣發言,為什麼要那樣發言那我要想請教您,您知道就是我剛剛講過質詢過很多的官員"},{"start":174.673,"end":201.882,"text":"我一個感覺好像天下本太平自走炮自擾之習近平喊和平大家一起安心睡的感覺所以我想要請教最近有一個討論的話題因為習近平重生和平統一那很多人就看到說你看他都喊和平統一對不對那就代表和平就不會動武那我想請問您是這樣嗎你相信習近平"},{"start":203.643,"end":222.564,"text":"我問委員報告我沒有什麼相信不相信但我們國軍在國軍部隊裡面待久了以後有些事情決定是一個定律就是因為人家一句話而改變了自己的初衷因為和平那我們就不要戰備了嗎?不會因為有和平所以我們就比較鬆懈嗎?不會"},{"start":223.965,"end":244.331,"text":"所以我覺得在這一方面我是一個蠻好的一個跟國軍同仁一樣的一個大原則,絕對抓住。不為人家一句話,我們就改變我們自己,就放鬆或緊繃了。所以人家也不講一句話,我就變很緊張,整個方寸就亂了。我想這是很重要的。"},{"start":244.591,"end":261.218,"text":"我覺得這部長的態度是正確的你也不能因為習近平一句話而喊和平統一好像就太平無事一樣那該要做的準備當然是要做準備但是下一個我就要問您因為今天您的報告是面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅影響與應處作為可是我發現"},{"start":267.641,"end":292.307,"text":"這個全篇報告只字未提美國、日本那意思是在面對中共常態化的侵擾威脅所以日本跟美國因素不重要嗎?不是不重要,但我們全部不指望因為他到底會採取什麼樣一個反應或動作我們是完全不知道的所以我們不能把它列為我們認為他會如何這樣的話會有違我們國軍建軍備在一個概念的"},{"start":292.847,"end":300.031,"text":"我想請教,可是事實上我們政府的歷次兵推也會把美國的狀況考量進去嗎?是不是?"},{"start":313.259,"end":337.059,"text":"我最起碼軍事當中兵推我沒有遇過這個狀況是我是講說整個政府在做所謂的兩岸的兵推會不會把美國跟日本因素考慮進去因為它每個層次不同所以為什麼對我有什麼評論我是完全在一個軍事立場來設想那我就從軍事立場來請教我們部長其實坦白講過去我看到民進黨的朋友"},{"start":337.739,"end":337.759,"text":"：羅智強"},{"start":367.449,"end":371.87,"text":"我這樣問好了我們就拿烏克蘭戰爭來做一個類比那烏俄開戰美國跟歐洲各國皆會聲援都有聲援沒錯吧第一個當然第一個等級就是譴責俄國"},{"start":390.982,"end":408.103,"text":"歐洲跟美國的幾個國家都譴責俄國第二個等級是經濟制裁技術很多經濟制裁的措施第三個等級是提供武器跟軍事援助可是到目前為止有沒有到第四個等級就是派兵參戰"},{"start":409.674,"end":424.731,"text":"目前我剛剛講了從來口會、實會我們都沒有考慮過口會旁邊拉拉隊一樣喊一喊換成我也喊一喊加油到底有沒有實會這是很重要的部長完全知道我要問什麼"},{"start":426.012,"end":445.83,"text":"就是說前面譴責其實只是一種口惠當然經濟制裁提供武器軍事援助也還是有實質可是事實上很多在討論當中都把它界定到最後一個等級就是派兵參戰但實際上之前日本官房長官其實他就說過一段話我看部長也有回應嘛"},{"start":446.471,"end":475.084,"text":"他說他不能認同臺灣有事日本有事的觀點他認為兩岸如果爆發戰爭日本協防臺灣可能面臨重大的損失所以臺灣不應期待日本協防臺灣這句話其實指的也不只是日本啦也包括美國因素所以在你的戰備考量之下我們就是自己國家自己救嘛您是這樣說嘛我也是這樣認為好接下來我想請教您下一個問題我想請教部長"},{"start":476.084,"end":500.545,"text":"您知道這個 2021年疫情期間有位網友在PTT上辱罵陳時中攻擊台灣防疫而且散播親中言論寒可惡要大家移除衛福部的LINE帳號及管家我想請問您這算不算是有利中共不利台灣的訊息"},{"start":501.513,"end":523.116,"text":"我跟委員剛剛有問到我們界定就是說你發表言論利於敵方不利於我方那你覺得這個訊息算不算利於敵方不利於我方當然也算了所以他就是在地協力權對 是不是有違反了什麼規定那不是我的責任那我跟部長說"},{"start":524.557,"end":538.805,"text":"王定宇有痛批這是大陸滲透PTT搞認知作戰而且網友收錢擾亂台灣蔡英文在臉書也附和王定宇可是你知道最後被查出來這一起所謂王定宇的中共擾亂台灣事件"},{"start":541.087,"end":554.929,"text":"這個網友是范雲的學生綠營的寫手林偉峰自導自演他的老婆還是當時民進黨媒體社群中心副主任我想請問林偉峰是不是您定義的在地協力者中共在地協力者"},{"start":555.863,"end":579.614,"text":"我跟委員報這個人我不認得我對一個不認得的人我沒辦法去做一個評論當然啦那我跟你講照這個標準林偉峰就是中共在地協力者而背後的民進黨千絲萬縷的關係民進黨也是中共在地協力者嗎我最後還是給部長前面其實我都很肯定你但您這句話說真的我覺得講得不夠精確"},{"start":580.774,"end":604.828,"text":"因為很多東西事實上要馬上所謂的用所謂有利不利來去做一個判準還是要回到法律的標準來看對不對那事實上犯法就抓去關啊這我也贊成所以請部長以後這類型的說法可能要更精確一點點是謝謝委員我也要給我幾秒鐘那天我在大院會裡的報告我有講這一話所以如何界定這不是我國防部的能力範圍要經過檢調單位"},{"start":607.569,"end":626.629,"text":"我當時也沒有什麼事後諸葛亮,我當時不知道,直接問我的反應,哪個支持者對他有利,他就是他的支持者,這沒有什麼好疑問的,但他因為他支持某人而危害了我們,檢調單位去做一個判斷,特別跟委員所說明,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353dda50fc3a72ab299acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6c1b34ac842e2f80c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:21:42 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11:32:36","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":654,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:32:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:21:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":777,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時21分）謝謝主席。請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁早上也辛苦了，我先請教一下，我看到你早上的質詢，大家問的問題也都很多元，我們都知道總裁講話通常具有一槌定音的效果啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：早上我看到有其他委員在關心最近很夯的ETF，總裁用了一個非常生動的比喻，這就會像羊群一樣跳下去，你說怎麼上來就會怎麼樣下去，我相信總裁這一番談話可能會對ETF具有降溫的效果啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我是希望啦！我是希望這樣啦！不過我跟委員報告，金管會也瞭解、也關注到這個議題，所以他們也是希望採一些降溫的措施。"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁也認為說最近這幾檔很夯的ETF太熱了，比如會對臺灣經濟的發展不好、還是對哪裡不好？所以你希望它具有降溫的效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：最主要的應該是說投資人一窩蜂，我看媒體也是在表達、在描述說因為很多人對ETF也都不懂，但是因為看到大家都一直去買，他就打電話，打到金融機構接到手軟，所以很顯然這是一窩蜂的，很多都是一窩蜂……"],["李委員坤城：就像前面一頭羊跳下去了，後面的不知道就跟著跳下去的意思嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：他也不曉得ETF是什麼，只是現在一直在漲漲漲，人的心理就是追漲，大家都有一個現象就是追漲，不懂的，他也一直往前衝……"],["李委員坤城：應該不是說ETF不好，因為它也是一種投資的方式。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：它也是一種投資的方式，就跟基金跟股票是一樣的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：只是今天我們總裁給了一個警語，現在買ETF太熱，希望投資人在投資之前要先理性選擇一下，應該是這個意思吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。也就是說，對於投資人，我想最基本的，我也不是非常非常高竿的投資人，不是！但有一個基本的原則，就是上車跟下車的時點，你必須要瞭解，不是一窩蜂的，人家上車，你也跟著上車，下車的時候，你也跟著下車，這個就……"],["李委員坤城：OK！所以我說總裁的談話具有一槌定音的效果。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你。"],["李委員坤城：你講出來之後，這幾天買ETF的人大概就會稍微降溫一點了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝、謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：總裁是看好今年臺灣的經濟成長？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，基本上會比去年好。"],["李委員坤城：比去年好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，比去年好。"],["李委員坤城：信心從哪裡來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：最主要就是我們的出口有復甦，你看從10、11、12、1、2月份都是成長的，這個很顯然，當然我們的出口成長很大一部分也是跟AI有關係，但是其他慢慢的在5、6月份以後，普遍也應該會隨著上升啦！也就是說我們的出口好，我們的投資就會好，出口好、投資好。另外，我們消費的部分，去年我們的經濟成長說實在的主要都是靠消費，剛好就是COVID-19解封以後，餐飲業、旅遊業這些都非常好，今年應該也是維持它的動力。"],["李委員坤城：所以總裁認為經濟成長好，因為我們出口會增加。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：內需也會增加？"],["楊總裁金龍：內需應該也會增加，因為它的動力還是有的。"],["李委員坤城：大家也關心通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：因為我昨天有問主計長，主計長說如果把電價成長的部分計算進去的話大概是2%，主計長認為2%算溫和，他講了好幾次溫和，那總裁呢？總裁的看法怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：主計長講的也沒有錯啦！不過我們是稍微比較保守一點，因為我們在12月時的預測就是1.89%，剛看到我們的電價要上漲的方案，如果把它計算進去，還有考慮到其他的，比如這個也要漲、那個也要漲，還有考慮到通膨的預期心理，也許我們會超過2%，但下個禮拜四我們的理監事會……"],["李委員坤城：會來討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，會很謹慎地來討論這個議題。"],["李委員坤城：相信總裁也會相當關心美國的聯準會……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：他們會不會降息？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，對，也就是說市場目前都一直覺得美國是在6月以後會降息。"],["李委員坤城：會降息，你認為他們會降息的原因在哪裡？他們通膨有控制住了嗎？他們的經濟成長有達到預期了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過這是市場的預期啦！"],["李委員坤城：總裁的看法呢？我比較相信總裁的看法。"],["楊總裁金龍：Fed還是很謹慎，因為中央銀行畢竟對中央銀行的想法會比較接近，中央銀行在瞭解中央銀行的想法會比較接近一點，我們認為Fed還是非常謹慎的……"],["李委員坤城：跟你一樣的謹慎。"],["楊總裁金龍：一樣的謹慎。"],["李委員坤城：所以6月之後會降息嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為美國它是說如果，它還是有條件的，如果說它預期通膨有下降到2%左右，然後經濟也是有韌性的，而且通膨有下來，因為市場都認為有75%會軟著陸，這樣的話，它就認為這就符合它的標準，但是什麼時候會符合這個標準？Fed也不敢說。"],["李委員坤城：反正就是大家抓準6月之前不會改變，6月之後有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：好。臺灣呢？因為我們的利率通常會跟著美國走吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不一定啦！"],["李委員坤城：不一定？"],["楊總裁金龍：不一定。"],["李委員坤城：因為我今天早上有看到其他委員也有問啦！就是說美國在6月之後有可能降息，但是臺灣不一定，有可能會升息嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我們跟美國不大一樣的地方就是說美國的通膨很高，然後它就提高利率，急速的提高利率。我們的通膨不會像它那麼高，所以我們提高的利率都是很溫和漸進的，溫和漸進地上去，因為它是從上面調降下來的，所以它就是有調降的空間，中央銀行要看我們通膨的情況。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是通膨2%大概是現在主流的看法，主計長以及國發會主委都認為是2%，如果在2%左右的情況之下，在這個條件的情況之下，總裁方便講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，我會說我們會很謹慎，這是第一個。第二個，電價的調升除了會對CPI產生影響以外，我們還要注意的是通膨預期心理，如果大家都講在通膨、通膨，它就會自我實現喔！這個我們要非常注意。"],["李委員坤城：對啦，所以大家不要有這個預期心理，認為會產生通膨，結果這個預期心理就真的發生了，當然這也是有可能，只是因為總裁之前有提到，對於臺灣的經濟成長是看好的，如果利率不降反升的話不曉得會不會對經濟成長造成影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，我們臺灣的經濟受到外部的（external）影響比較大，我們本身的影響比較少，都是外部影響，誠如我剛剛所說的，我們的出口好，我們的投資就會好，我們的消費水準也會維持在一定水準，政府的支出也有成長，在這種情況之下，經濟是會往上推的。"],["李委員坤城：因為時間不多，我還有一題想要問，央行有打算要發行數位貨幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還在研擬當中。"],["李委員坤城：中國人民銀行是不是也有發行？"],["楊總裁金龍：他們現在講的是試點，試點也不是正式發行。"],["李委員坤城：他們是試點。"],["楊總裁金龍：他們只是試點而已，沒有正式發行。"],["李委員坤城：我認為數位貨幣當然有其流通性及方便性，但是也有高度的管制性在，所以我認為總裁在發行數位貨幣的時候，可能也要注意到這一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們會，委員說的沒有錯，我們會很小心。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝總裁、謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳委員玉珍質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.90784375,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.15159375,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.47596875,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.864093750000002,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.80284375,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.18659375,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.540343750000005,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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你很早總裁這個早上也辛苦了這個我先請教一下我看到你早上的質詢這個大家問的問題也都很多元那這個我們都知道說總裁講話這個"},{"start":26.028,"end":51.484,"text":"通常具有一錘定音的這個效果啦謝謝謝謝委員因為早上我有看到有其他委員在關心最近很夯的這個ETF然後這個總裁用了一個非常生動的比喻這個就會像這個羊群一樣跳下去然後說怎麼上來就會怎麼樣下去嘛那我相信這個總裁的這一番談話可能會對這個ETF會具有降溫的效果啦我是希望啦"},{"start":55.655,"end":81.956,"text":"我是希望是這樣不過跟委員報告就是說金管會也了解也關注到這個議題所以他們也是希望就採一些的降溫的措施所以總裁認為說這個最近這個極端很夯的這個ETF這個太熱了對於這個台灣的這個這個比如說經濟發展不好勒還是說對哪裡不好勒那所以你希望它具有這個降溫的這個效果"},{"start":83.564,"end":98.353,"text":"最主要的這個我們應該就是說啦是應該是說是投資人一窩蜂的我看媒體也就是在表達在描述說因為很多對ETF他也都不懂的啊但是因為看到大家都是一直在去買的"},{"start":99.513,"end":122.141,"text":"打電話打到那個什麼那個那個金融機構呢都接的接的就說完所以很顯然的這是一窩蜂的很多都是一窩蜂就像前面頭一樣跳下去的後面不知道就跟著跳下去的意思嗎那就是說他也不曉得ETF是不是他只是說現在呢說我就一直在賬賬賬那現在說大家人的心裡就是說那追賬"},{"start":123.101,"end":144.337,"text":"他都有一個現象叫追賬那這個就是說不懂得他一直往前衝應該不是說ETF不好因為他也是一種投資的方式就跟基金就跟股票是一樣只是說今天我們總裁給了一個警語就是說現在買ETF太熱"},{"start":145.397,"end":171.732,"text":"希望說投資人在投資之前先要先理性先選擇一下應該是這個意思吧是沒有錯也就是說投資人我想最基本的啦我想我也不是非常非常很高竿的那個投資人不是有一個基本的原則就是說你的上車跟下車的時點你必須要你必須要了解不是一窩蜂的人家上車你也跟著上車"},{"start":172.933,"end":173.573,"text":"總裁是看好今年台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":194.306,"end":220.164,"text":"我還是基本上會比去年好。是,比去年好。信心從哪裡來的?這主要就是說我們的出口有復甦。我們出口你看喔,從10月份、10月份、9月份、10月份、11、12、1、2,都是成長的。這個很顯然的,那當然啦,我們的出口成長呢,很大一部分也是跟AI有關係啦。"},{"start":222.466,"end":248.92,"text":"但其他的慢慢的在五六月份以後的普遍的應該也會隨著上升所以也就是說我們的出口好我們的投資就會好我們出口好投資好那另外呢我們的消費的這個部分我們消費的部分去年去年我們經濟成長說實在的主要都靠消費那消費呢就是剛好就是我們解封了以後"},{"start":250.441,"end":250.701,"text":"總裁金龍率所屬單位主管"},{"start":274.62,"end":280.476,"text":"喔對對沒有錯那這個因為我昨天有問主界長主界長說大概如果把這個電價這個"},{"start":283.679,"end":306.792,"text":"這個成長的部分把它計算進去的話大概是2%那2%這個主計長他認為說溫和哇他講了好幾次溫和那總裁呢總裁看法怎麼樣我主計長他講的也沒有錯不過我們是稍微稍微就比較保守一點因為我們原先的我們在12月的時候的預測就是說1.89"},{"start":309.614,"end":329.268,"text":"那1089如果說剛看到就是說我們的這個電價要上漲的這個方案我們如果說把它計算進去還有考慮到其他的那這個也要漲那個也要漲那還有考慮到就是說通膨逸期的心理的話也許我們會超過2%"},{"start":331.53,"end":336.997,"text":"但是這個就是說我們下個禮拜四我們的李監事會來很謹慎的來討論這個議題那這個相信總裁也會相當關心美國的這個聯準會他們會不會降息"},{"start":349.973,"end":369.032,"text":"這個呢也就是說市場目前都一直覺得美國是在6月以後會降息會降息但是呢你認為他們會降息的原因在哪裡?他們通膨有控制住了嗎?他們經濟成長達到預期了嗎?這是市場的預期不過呢那總裁的看法勒?"},{"start":369.672,"end":381.021,"text":"我比較相信總裁的看法對,廢的還是很謹慎因為中央銀行畢竟對中央銀行的想法會比較接近我們對中央銀行在了解中央銀行的想法會比較接近一點我們認為廢的還是非常謹慎的跟你一樣的謹慎一樣的謹慎所以6月之後會降息嗎?"},{"start":397.733,"end":414.392,"text":"因為美國他是說如果那他還是有條件的如果說他一期就是說他的通膨有到下降到2%左右有下降來然後呢他的經濟呢也能夠就是說"},{"start":418.856,"end":447.367,"text":"這也是有韌性的但是通膨有下來那他也是很希望因為市場都認為75%會軟著陸那這樣的話他就認為這個就符合他的標準但是什麼時候會符合這個標準Fed他也不敢說大家抓準6月之前不會改變但6月之後有可能那台灣呢因為我們的這個利率通常會跟著美國走吧"},{"start":448.768,"end":451.75,"text":"基本上我們跟美國不太一樣的地方就是說美國是通膨的很高然後他就提高利率"},{"start":470.367,"end":490.179,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":490.299,"end":504.697,"text":"那我那時候說如果通膨大概就是兩趴現在大概是主流的看法啦主界長大概還有國科委主委國發委主委他們大概都是認為是兩趴啦那如果在兩趴主流的情況之下那在這個條件的情況之下那總裁方便講嗎"},{"start":505.518,"end":518.904,"text":"我我我我我我第一個我會說我們會很謹慎第二個呢我們除了就是說電價的這個電價的這個的調升以外會對CPI的影響以外我們還有"},{"start":523.446,"end":550.544,"text":"要注意的就是說是通膨預期的心理因為如果說大家都在講通膨通膨他就會自我實現喔所以就是說大家不要有這個預期的心理就是說啊會通膨然後結果這個預期的心理就真的發生了這當然這也是有可能只是說因為總裁之前有提到說對於台灣的經濟成長是看好的啦那我只是想說如果這個利率齁"},{"start":551.524,"end":576.986,"text":"這個不這樣反省的話不曉得會不會對於經濟造成成長會造成影響基本上我說我們台灣的經濟他受到external受到外部的影響比較大我們本身的這個影響比較少外面的就是說你的出口好的話基本上我們就跟誠如我剛剛所說我們的出口好"},{"start":578.247,"end":591.921,"text":"我們的出口好我們的投資就會好那我們的消費水準也會維持一定的水準那政府的支出呢也有成長那在這種情況之下好像就是說你經濟是會往上推的"},{"start":595.264,"end":619.876,"text":"其實時間不多我還有一題想問的就是這個央行有打算要發行那個數位貨幣我們是還是在研議當中中國的這個人民銀行他們是不是有發行他們事典他們是先要講說是事典事典也不是正式發行他只是事典而已但是沒有正式發行"},{"start":621.096,"end":621.237,"text":"謝謝總裁 謝謝主席"},{"start":649.639,"end":651.311,"text":"接著請陳玉珍陳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149887","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135cd6d8766a0759fa451d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6768c2cd13f371f495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:26:58 - 11:32:01","影片長度":"00:05:03","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":303,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:32:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:26:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時27分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想延續黃國昌委員的說法，現在彰濱工業區正在抗爭，同樣一句話，政府說的話算不算話？要算話吧？"],["王部長美花：對，經濟部要按照相關的合約來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果有這樣的承諾，就不應該再發生讓民眾要去抗爭的狀況，我想這是最基本的政府的公信力。","第二個部分我想請教中油。"],["主席：請李董事長。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想大家都知道在臺北內湖區有大台北瓦斯的六顆瓦斯槽，這是大台北瓦斯在臺北市的供氣儲氣槽，這六顆瓦斯槽在我二十幾年前當議員時，其實當地民眾和市政府都希望能夠及早遷移。它們一直都說這是因為中油的關係、中油的供氣不足，說這是中油的原因，所以在106年當時臺北市產發局就已經做了二個方案，第一個是幫大台北瓦斯去找其它遷移的場址，總共找了十四個地方，但是公司卻說這要花很多錢它不要。另外一個方案是台灣經濟研究院當時評估過，如果要移除的話，只要確認中油的2期輸氣工程，也就是觀塘三接完工之後，能夠增加臺北市的民生供氣，未來就可以布建穩定的輸配電管網系統，也就是導入第二氣源，那麼就可以拆除這六座儲氣槽，請問董事長是嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，我們在配管的部分已經完成了。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經完成了？"],["李董事長順欽：現在要不要拆其實是業者……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它已經做到了穩定的供氣，已經不至於還需要這六座儲氣槽繼續存在在臺北市區了對吧？"],["李董事長順欽：我們的管線是可以來處理，那還是尊重業者。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是尊重業者，我們是政府啊！這個儲氣槽很有趣，它是大台北瓦斯公司，它提供的是臺北市其它行政區，它的位置設在內湖，但是內湖人用的是欣湖瓦斯，這是一個很離譜的事情。第二個，它旁邊就是密集的住宅區，當年是把綠地變成了公共事業用地，現在其實只是還地於民。所以針對中油的部分，現在就是它要跟你重談合約，也就是說，你跟它的合約現在是不是正在協議中？你跟它的供氣合約是不是應該再把我們這個部分加進來？在111年的時候，當時邱臣遠委員也開過協調會，你們應該要跟它在合約裡面明定供氣壓力穩定之後，就要停用。董事長，這個在你們的合約一定範圍之內有納進去嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：那個合約我們當時協調的結果就是先延到今年年底，現在在談新的合約的時候會一併處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我希望經濟部能源署和中油，像這種所謂的鄰避設施，而且它現在已經是沒有功用的東西，我們希望能夠由你們來協助大台北瓦斯公司，包括它的管網、供氣的穩定、備援能源的需求，還有瓦斯槽的拆除都能夠一併協助，由中油來主導，能夠讓這六顆瓦斯槽早日從內湖區拆除。部長，可以請你們跟能源署一起來協助嗎？"],["王部長美花：剛才委員講得很好，它涉及的因素委員都講了，有一些中央或者中油可以來協助的部分就可以協助，當然它還要有大台北瓦斯本身的部分，我們會一起來協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：只要中油供氣穩定，我相信它就沒有正當理由再繼續留這些瓦斯槽。"],["王部長美花：我們可以大力的協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，這件事情很重要。另外我想問一下有關中油的部分，你們接下去在印度的投資還會繼續或擴大，或者是可以增加更多新南向的擴張中油，我們希望你們能夠多賺點錢，少點虧損。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，印度的辦公室我們已經裁撤了，因為我們去那邊幾年，一直跟投資印度這個單位Invest India很多投資在那邊都談不攏。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這邊已經胎死腹中了？"],["李董事長順欽：對，都談不攏。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有沒有其它擴充或者是在營業範圍之內可以告訴國人的？"],["李董事長順欽：目前印度方面是沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的。部長，麻煩你，針對我所講的瓦斯槽，希望在臺北市能夠絕跡，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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要算話吧"},{"start":28.282,"end":50.574,"text":"對我們經濟部我們要按照相關的合約來處理如果說有這樣的承諾就不應該再發聲讓民眾要去抗爭我想這是最基本的政府的公信力第二個部分我也請中油請李董部長我想在台北大家都知道在台北的內湖區有大台北瓦斯的六顆瓦斯槽"},{"start":51.391,"end":52.891,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":80.879,"end":88.617,"text":"大台北瓦斯去找了其他遷移的場址找了14個地方但是這公司他說要花很多錢他不要"},{"start":89.844,"end":112.515,"text":"另外一個方案就是台灣經濟研究院當時評估過如果要移除的話只要確認中油的二期輸氣工程也就是關塘三階完工之後能夠增加臺北市的民生工氣未來就可以佈建穩定的輸配電管網系統也就是導入第二氣源就可以拆除這六座除氣槽"},{"start":113.766,"end":129.058,"text":"董事長是嗎?根文報告我們在配管的部分已經完成了那現在要不要猜其實是業者所以他已經做到了穩定的供氣以及不至於還需要這6座除氣槽繼續存在在台北市區了對吧?"},{"start":129.398,"end":158.257,"text":"我們的管線是可以來處理還是尊重業者接下來的問題就是不是尊重業者我們是政府這個除氣槽很有趣他是大台北瓦斯公司他提供的是台北市其他行政區他的位置設在內湖但是內湖人用的是新湖瓦斯這是一個很離譜的事情第二個他旁邊就是密集的住宅區當年是把綠地變成了公共事業用地現在其實只是還地於民"},{"start":159.618,"end":178.969,"text":"中油的部分我們現在就是他要跟你重談合約也就是說你跟他現在的合約現在是不是正在協議中你還要問你跟他的公企合約是不是應該再把我們這個部分加進來在111年的時候當時秋生委員會開過協調會"},{"start":181.09,"end":192.584,"text":"你們應該要跟他在合約裡面從你而且供氣壓力穩定之後就要停用這個在你們的合約一定範圍之內董事長你有納進去嗎?"},{"start":193.334,"end":212.94,"text":"是,那個合約我們當時就協調的結果就是先延到今年年底那再談新的合約的時候會一併處理好,所以部長我希望經濟部、能源署還有中油這種所謂的零幣設施而且它已經存在現在已經沒有公用的東西我們希望能夠"},{"start":215.049,"end":236.105,"text":"由你們來協助大台北瓦斯公司包括它的管網、供氣的穩定還有備援能源的需求還有瓦斯槽的拆除都能夠一併來協助由中油來主導能夠讓這個六顆瓦斯槽早日從內湖去拆除部長可以請你們來跟能源署一起來協助嗎?"},{"start":237.307,"end":256.065,"text":"剛才委員講得很好他涉及的因素委員都講了吼那有一些這個我們中央或者中油可以來協助的可以協助那當然他還要有大台北瓦斯本身的這個部分只要中油供氣穩定我相信他就沒有正當理由再繼續留這個這個就可以我們可以大力的協助"},{"start":256.525,"end":269.978,"text":"這件事情很重要另外我想問一下中油的部分你們接下去在印度的投資還會繼續或擴大或者是我們可以增加更多的新南向的擴張我們中油而不會我們希望能夠你們能夠多賺點錢少點虧損"},{"start":272.16,"end":297.148,"text":"跟委員報告,印度的辦公室我們已經採測了,因為我們去那邊幾年,那一直跟投資印度這個單位,也沒是印度人,很多投資在那邊都談不攏。 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法則我覺得這樣子的一個缺乏相應的法則使得光害防治在地方上有存在一定的混亂跟不完善我想請問一下部長環境部能不能盤點這些光源的類型並針對各個類型的光源所造成的光汙染"},{"start":120.003,"end":140.849,"text":"制定管理規範及解決方案跟羅文報告我覺得這一塊可以來做因為的確現在民眾反映有關關害事實上是蠻多的本席在自己的選區也遇到很多這樣子的一個問題那最近不管是青梅成品相關的一個問題還有很多霓虹燈"},{"start":141.869,"end":160.398,"text":"他你有看過那種檳榔攤它的霓虹燈晚上是非常非常的亮眼造成住戶這樣子無法去睡眠啊我覺得這些問題已經形成了很多的一個陳情案件我想部長跟您請問一下有可能法治化嗎如果可以的話可不可以給本席一個具體的時間表"},{"start":163.806,"end":182.228,"text":"光害就如同之前我們在推動噪音管制一樣不同階段那只要民眾反映他覺得充斥在我們的生活環境當中已經造成包括對身體跟個人的生活各方面的部長我具體問你就520前您可以送出一個草案嗎"},{"start":183.503,"end":195.301,"text":"520前我想大概時間上沒有辦法因為他涵蓋面好那我先不探討到底520之後您會不會在我希望繼續存在您會擔部長但520如果今年度還在的話您可以在今年度提出一個版本嗎"},{"start":197.202,"end":217.014,"text":"謝謝羅廷瑋不過這個假設性的問題我們就不要在這邊談不管我們在這個位置我想我們的同仁都會繼續請你督促同仁在今年度務必能夠繳出這一個版本出來讓我們的所有全民全國國體國人都很希望有這樣子的一個關愛污染防治法這部分可以嗎"},{"start":217.894,"end":238.602,"text":"跟委員報告我想這樣我們在今年年初的1月4號發布一個光汙染管理指引的第二版本那我想這個讓我們實施了一段時間然後再回頭檢討這個同時呢我們在做這個光汙染的那個檢測因為那個每個檢測的方式沒關係我們會再討論啦但是你的報告自己就有講每年澄清案件700多件"},{"start":240.524,"end":248.016,"text":"這事實就是證明有這樣子的需求我希望你能夠具體面對這個需求回應國人的需要那再來我想看一下泡泡影你看這個東西齁"},{"start":249.738,"end":276.227,"text":"部長我想跟您請問一下你現在全國共設置210套的聲音照相設備未來要增加到306套我覺得抓草不抓改但是目前就這樣306套114年要共同完成我覺得這是不夠的那再來您看這個新聞現在最新最新的他不是在做所謂的噪音管制的部分我們看到以往都是在這個排氣管"},{"start":277.327,"end":304.505,"text":"是他現在直接在他的行李箱汽車後座裡面直接把他的這個氣門改裝氣門他藏在這個後座椅墊下然後他把他的後座都挖洞讓他容易排聲音出來您看這一個金屬環的部分這就是最新的一個改裝他用這樣子的方式不容易藏在他的內體裡面不是在排氣管上你不容易發現我想"},{"start":305.505,"end":322.966,"text":"現在環境部應該就現在實施的一個改裝品我們應該滾動式的檢討去因應未來年輕人這樣子的一個改裝品造成的一個噪音所以我現在點出問題部長您可不可以給我一個回應就現在我點出這個社會實施問題可不可以馬上來做一個演繹"},{"start":324.275,"end":336.404,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們還是維持那個抓草不抓蓋這就是草一百分貝一百零八分貝所以如果有草的我們會是我們這邊來取代我要講的是我們都是從源頭開始處理那現在已經不是排氣管了還有這個氣門的問題我們應該要做這樣子的一個認證擴大這些有可能"},{"start":348.814,"end":371.067,"text":"謝謝羅瑋"}]}},{"id":"149885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313517d562db1a2dfd0c836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6771bfa2fcba23d975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:16:10 - 11:27:05","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":655,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:27:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:16:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時16分）謝謝宜瑾召委。有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：范委員早。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。我在整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜，真的發現主委任內非常有開創性，針對重要的科技趨勢，譬如今天也有委員問過的本土生成式 AI，還有就是大家都很關心的晶創臺灣方案，我覺得都是非常有前瞻性，我們在科技的前沿怎麼樣為臺灣創造最大公共利益的部分，主委任內的這些作法，我覺得都是引領的，我們委員還沒想到的，你們都先規劃了，所以我肯定主委這方面的努力，非常地期待，讓臺灣在未來10年，我們都有機會繼續引領。對於我關心的一些問題，不管是性別、人文社會科學，主委也非常關注，這點我也肯定，相比我們看到過去的國科會，我覺得這也是非常可圈可點，但是今天還是希望要精進啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：我們還是要能夠更好，我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好而放鬆，要更好！所以今天先請問生成式AI，一年前去年3月15日的時候，我當時就以國外的研究談到Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制，要讓它有臺味、人味、倫理、性平等等，所以當時提了三個要求，第一個，要降低資料庫的偏見；第二個，AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與，在決策過程這部分；第三個，要研發「人工道德行為者」這樣的機制，你們辦公室都有跟我們回應，我們也非常地肯定，我們看到去年6月就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI，所以這個TAIDE計畫，我想算是非常讓人值得期待，我知道你們還沒有正式開放，據我瞭解的是，公部門包含榮總、中研院、氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達要相關合作，取得這整個的過程，我想真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要。也有13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU，所以我覺得你們也在創造公共財，讓臺灣的產業有機會在世界的AI新發展中，有本土生成式的AI可以合作，這部分我覺得都非常好。","我想針對我之前問的倫理機制，本土的部分其實你們已經做到了，倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的，沒有資料偏見這個部分，你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是，你們已經考慮了倫理因素，將研析國際相關技術並參酌委員意見納入TAIDE設計的開發過程。主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎？因為納入這兩個字，我跟辦公室研究了很久，還不清楚，可不可以跟我們分享一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個有一點技術的問題，就是……"],["范委員雲：對，用我們大家都聽得懂的話告訴我。"],["吳主任委員政忠：第一個，它在回答的時候，我們現在TAIDE引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊驗測，他會去問它，然後給它一些……"],["范委員雲：所以是用一個檢測、測試的方式？因為我有看到新聞報導，你們都有在測試嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，就是有點在教小朋友的概念。"],["范委員雲：就是測試嘛？"],["吳主任委員政忠：另外一個是針對被盜用等，whatever，事實上如果這個對話引擎去唸一些沒有著作權的資料，未來我們會埋進去，生成的時候，它一唸到那個東西，馬上就會被發現，這個也是一些……"],["范委員雲：如果它答出來的，譬如不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的，會在測試的結果裡面做修正，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：修正，另外也會讓這個擁有者知道他的東西被偷唸了、偷看了。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個是技術問題，這還在演進當中。"],["范委員雲：對，我想這個技術問題，大家都非常期待，對你們也有一定的信心，但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊、你們給我的回復跟您剛剛的答復，我覺得倫理的這個議題，就是我講的Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，好像沒有在這個loop裡面，還是在太後端了，就是你們已經有東西出來做檢測，我的理解是後端，能不能在研發的階段就納入人文社會科學的相關人才，我覺得如果在前端就能夠有這個國外發展所說的Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，我們這個已經確定是本土的生成式AI甚至可能會比其他的國家還做得更好，不知道主委可以承諾往這個方向去努力嗎？因為我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊！"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，謝謝，這個的確必須要，因為我剛剛講這個生成式人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人，這是它的腦，所以它的倫理、法治、道德觀念一定是要有我們臺灣的想法跟思想，這個我們會來做。"],["范委員雲：好啊！因為未來醫療、氣象、企業都會用到……"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，都會用。"],["范委員雲：所以如果你們前端做得好，我想我們全國都能夠享用跟升級，好不好？主委，針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入人文社會去思考倫理跟相關的部分，報告在兩個月之內再給我一份，好不好？就是規劃的部分。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：OK。另外一題，我想今天大家都很關心，也非常期待，就是晶創臺灣方案，因為真的是像我剛剛講的，我非常地肯定主委有這個10年的規畫，我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這，由國科會來領導非常地好，你們會結合我們剛講的生成式AI跟晶片的產業，所以我想科技跟產業之間的帶動有關，因為我們辦公室研究了半天，之前你們有推動八大前瞻科技平臺，當時也有相關的部分，所以想瞭解跟八大前瞻科技平臺的關聯性是什麼，以及資源分配整合會不會有重疊的部分，主委可不可以簡要說明？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。委員這個說法滿正確的，事實上我們在盤點晶創臺灣計畫的時候，以前的都會把它併入。"],["范委員雲：會併入？就是一個更龐大的計畫了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：不能重疊，因為有些會有關聯性。"],["范委員雲：好，我相信您。我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題，記不記得之前我問過人文科技「經費暫無」的問題？我非常地驚慌、驚訝，我質詢時也講過我們臺灣的人文社會經費、人才跟OECD國家比，我們是人文人才極低，社會科學也相對低，我們是科技一枝獨秀。我知道主委很重視這一塊，可是當時報紙就爆出了「經費暫無」的情況。後來你們跟我講可能是個錯誤，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是啊！"],["范委員雲：我還是要求應該增加，所以從八大前瞻到晶創臺灣方案，人文社會科學你要有相關的人才去研究才能夠整合，到底經費有沒有增加？我質詢過之後，後來情況如何？主委可以簡要說明嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有，事實上那個是超過10億臺幣……"],["范委員雲：就是八大裡面超過10億？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，就是人文科技這邊，事實上在……"],["范委員雲：這比例是不是還是太低了？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是啦。"],["范委員雲：你看淨零科技就119億，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個部分我跟委員報告，這會有一個過程，突然間你給它太多錢，也會浪費。"],["范委員雲：這當然也是啦，合理啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：另外，我們現在有一個科民社，就是科技民主社會……"],["范委員雲：有……"],["吳主任委員政忠：有一批人……"],["范委員雲：我知道，就是設在政大的那個，那個非常讓人期待。"],["吳主任委員政忠：他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼用人文社會接到我們的製造業。"],["范委員雲：好，我想這個也的確是要有個漸進的過程，臺灣的科技非常好，可是科技畢竟是為人服務，它也要服膺於民主價值。在你們的四大布局當中，我們辦公室有去研究，在你們的布局一有講到要結合人文社會科學，剛剛我們講的是那邊有10億，對不對？這個結合的方式跟預算的布局，不知道主委是不是有規劃？我們如何能夠逐步增加，會不會也有一個十年規劃呢？因為你說這個不能一下增加太快，會出現弊端嘛。"],["吳主任委員政忠：產業創新的來源就是人文社會生活的一些感觸，因為臺灣以前是比較偏代工思維，你要慢慢過來到全產業創新，才會讓更多的年輕朋友加進來。"],["范委員雲：對！人才也需要培養，譬如說現在的博士生就要知道往這個方向走。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，瞭解。因為原來這個是IC design，這些人大部分是半導體，這兩群人如何介接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的。"],["范委員雲：好。主委，因為時間的關係，時間快到了。我想這個十年計畫──晶創臺灣方案，大家非常的期待，八大前瞻也會整合到裡面，我很希望520之後您繼續領導，我不知道您有沒有意願等等，那是不是520前也給我一份人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的十年初步規劃，好不好？如何讓預算慢慢地成長？我想您的魄力跟遠見、對於人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的，所以您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一份初步的報告、規劃？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委。加油！我們期待您繼續領導臺灣，更上一層樓我們也非常歡迎，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。","現在先來處理臨時提案，今天委員提出的臨時提案有3案，我們一併宣讀，請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於近幾年生成式人工智慧（AI）技術發展一日千里，影響遍佈全球產官學研各界。其生成創作內容在提供生活上娛樂便利與提高工作效率的同時，也引發著作權爭議，以及大量現有職業被取代的焦慮。在將來生成式AI勢必進一步結合產業應用的同時，應先就AI對就業市場潛在的衝擊進行評估，並制定相關配套措施以預防人類工作被大量取代所引發之社會動盪。","爰請國家科學及技術委員會針對生成式AI於就業市場可能產生的衝擊範圍，深度進行評估，提出立法規範建議或參考指引，並於三個月內就其進度向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　林宜瑾","二、","有鑑於行政院國家科學技術發展基金在高齡議題上，多數以高齡長者、銀髮族群的醫療及安全需求作為研究導向，實際上有關壯世代族群在食衣住行育樂等相關需求之研究寥寥無幾，上述情形顯示國家科學及技術委員會在高齡科技產業發展上，存在高齡需求數據嚴重不足之問題，進而在缺乏對壯世代需求的理解下，因目標市場模糊和不合理難以有顯著成果。國科會應規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查，於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院教文委員會。","提案人：吳春城　　萬美玲　　洪孟楷","三、","案由：有鑑於國科會推動「高齡科技產業行動計畫」，預計4年內投入95億元經費，並整合行政院經濟部、衛福部、數位部、教育部、內政部、文化部及原民會共8大部會。然而台灣過去社會環境或是政府的高齡化對策都以「養生、養老、養病」作為思考點，高齡科技多侷限於醫療保健等生理需求問題。國科會應基於高齡科技相關計畫之研究基礎，探討科技與設計在50歲以上人口生活中所扮演的角色，並就上述議題精進高齡科技產業相關計畫及提出專責市場需求系統性研究方案，於三個月內提出書面報告予立法院教文委員會。","提案人：吳春城　　萬美玲　　洪孟楷"],["主席：好，請問這3案的提案委員，有沒有補充說明或意見？如果沒有的話，主委要不要補充說明？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員提案。第1案遵照辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：第2案有一些文字修正，在最後倒數第二行「國科會應……」把「應」劃掉，修改為「國科會會同經濟部、衛福部、數發部規劃……」，就是差了幾個字，這個跟委員有協調過，應該是OK。","第3案也是稍微文字修正，從上面算下來第五行「國科會應會同經濟部、衛福部、數發部基於高齡科技……」，其他就沒有修正。"],["主席：好，吳委員沒問題喔，那我們……"],["吳主任委員政忠：對不起，還有一個，不好意思喔！第2案的「一個月」改成「三個月」。"],["主席：好，第1案就照案通過；第2案跟第3案都修正通過，謝謝。各提案如果有委員要補簽，我們請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，補簽在這裡。","我們接下來進行質詢。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.45659375,"end":6.915968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.388468750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.699718750000002,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.67346875,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.94784375,"end":217.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.95159375,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.05284375000002,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.45846875,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.85721875000002,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.80909375000002,"end":178.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.26721875,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.17846875,"end":220.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.65909375,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.02159375000002,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.99596875,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.32909375000003,"end":225.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.74596875,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.04971875,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.58096875,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.47096875000003,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.46659375000002,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.47034375,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.77784375000002,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.31346875000003,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.51596875,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.75409375000004,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.35721875,"end":271.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.93784375,"end":276.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.47721875,"end":276.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.49409375,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.52784375000005,"end":278.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.54846875000004,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.69596875,"end":283.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.94909375000003,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.60721875,"end":284.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.49284375,"end":338.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.24159375,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.13534375,"end":304.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308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范雲"},{"start":76.579,"end":92.647,"text":"但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前"},{"start":93.647,"end":119.006,"text":"去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個human in the loop society in the loop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與"},{"start":120.767,"end":145.635,"text":"決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放"},{"start":146.496,"end":165.335,"text":"據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU"},{"start":166.817,"end":183.029,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":183.209,"end":200.713,"text":"我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程"},{"start":208.596,"end":220.21,"text":"主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候"},{"start":225.596,"end":249.339,"text":"我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果"},{"start":250.02,"end":278.185,"text":"他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被"},{"start":279.588,"end":287.433,"text":"人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的human in the loop society in the loop"},{"start":300.621,"end":300.641,"text":"范雲"},{"start":327.356,"end":355.318,"text":"甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝 這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊"},{"start":355.598,"end":380.866,"text":"因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好"},{"start":383.227,"end":400.006,"text":"另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI"},{"start":404.991,"end":405.491,"text":"主委可不可以簡要說明"},{"start":431.999,"end":441.986,"text":"謝謝 委員 這個蠻正確的 事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入 就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊 因為有些會有關聯性的"},{"start":446.869,"end":466.886,"text":"我相信您喔 那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁 記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌 驚訝 覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才 我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比 我們是人文人才極低"},{"start":467.566,"end":467.586,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":490.686,"end":511.582,"text":"相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程"},{"start":514.864,"end":516.046,"text":"他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業"},{"start":533.288,"end":533.308,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":556.116,"end":556.136,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":581.051,"end":604.807,"text":"產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是IC Design這些人大部分是半導體"},{"start":607.889,"end":622.177,"text":"這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面"},{"start":622.677,"end":645.464,"text":"是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以"},{"start":648.227,"end":650.332,"text":"謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231359bcd8c88c4aee76a08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6799c8eb37eb667cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:13:27 - 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這個洪委員你放心好了我們該做的事情 我不放心因為你的態度讓我沒有很放心不會啦 我們把該做的事情都會做所以520之前會不會出來520之前會不會出來我尊重碳類委員會他們的決定但你的時間表"},{"start":373.376,"end":394.459,"text":"我的時間表就之前講我們基本上規劃是希望3月底但是來部長那個主席站起來我最後再一個問題那另外你這個沒有辦法回答時間表那我想請教另外一個部分蘇丹紅的食安部分那現在您早上也有打詢的時候你有講是說跟咖啡跟茶等自然風險列同等級是絕對沒有辦法接受這樣說法"},{"start":395.42,"end":396.501,"text":"那我們現在有看到說"},{"start":412.813,"end":417.076,"text":"但是你可以接受說蘇丹紅跟咖啡還有茶是同等級的東西嗎?"},{"start":434.489,"end":459.027,"text":"是不是應該沒辦法吧不然以後大家開會一杯茶一杯咖啡一杯蘇丹紅不會吧我只是要問一個問題因為你剛剛又岔題了我只是說現在有看到食安署食藥署跟環境部要研議57項的食安風險疑慮的化學物質列出高風險的物質請教何時會公佈"},{"start":459.847,"end":460.308,"text":"接下來請羅宗鑫"}]}},{"id":"149883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135fde118715c01bac79acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a65bdf70add8e932595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:08:30 - 11:21:07","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:21:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:08:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":736,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時8分）主席，我請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。楊總裁，這麼多年來，中央銀行不管在你或者前任總裁領導下，坦白講對於我們整個國家金融的穩定，對於匯率、利率這一些的掌控，其實社會給你們的評價都很高。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：可是我今天提到的有兩個，我覺得也是當務之急，我希望這兩個問題請你回答，就是先前為了抑制房市的過度飆漲，央行已經採取選擇性信用管制，已經採取了五波。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：這五波下去以後，我們看到，房市不但繼續熱絡，而且價格直直上揚，那等於全國不僅蛋黃區，全國22縣市都一起上漲。所以我要問你，在前5波對房市的選擇性信用管制成效不大之下，是不是應該再祭出第6波？你有沒有這個打算？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，第一，選擇性信用管制我們每次的理監事會都會討論、做滾動式的檢討；第二，在我們的健全房市方案裡面，選擇性信用管制的主要目的也不是在於要抑制房價，因為說實在的，臺灣房價上漲也有它的道理，第一是中美貿易衝突以後，臺商回來投資……"],["王委員世堅：總裁，這些我們都知道，不只我們立法院知道，全民也都知道啦！你不能在全民的期待下，現在突然說：沒有啦，我先前採取選擇性信用管制不是要打房價。我是直接挑明跟你說，這其實就是在打房價，而且我認為這是對的！這是全民的期待！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！"],["王委員世堅：合理的管制房價！因為房價不合理的飆升，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。好，那我現在就直接回答委員的問題，我們對選擇性信用管制的措施一直都會做滾動式檢討，必要的時候，我們也不是就到這裡為止而已。"],["王委員世堅：所以我請問你嘛！短期內你有沒有打算祭出第6波的選擇性信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的理監事會會討論。"],["王委員世堅：理監事會什麼時候會討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：3月份的時候。"],["王委員世堅：那就是這個月囉？好，我靜待你們討論的結果。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["王委員世堅：雖然你採用選擇性信用管制，但是我覺得國內這38家銀行好像有聽又好像沒聽，沒在當一回事，所以成效不彰。照理說，央行訂了這個政策，全體銀行都應該跟進才對，調皮搗蛋不跟進的就要予以處罰了，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有！"],["王委員世堅：結果這麼多年來，從108年、109年到111年，總共才處罰3件，這3家當初比較調皮搗蛋：臺企銀、合庫和國泰世華。好啦！也是一樣4個字──高舉輕放！罰款最高可以罰到2,000萬，結果你們都罰最低的100萬！那就難怪了！調皮搗蛋、不配合、不聽中央銀行指示的都只被罰100萬，其他更多沒被查到、沒配合的，大家當然都敢這麼做了嘛！了不起他們就準備繳交這個100萬的入場券，再來就隨他們做了，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們……"],["王委員世堅：所以央行指示的選擇性信用管制，38家銀行裡面除了那些模範生以外，對多數調皮搗蛋的銀行而言，我認為可以用8個字來形容他們，就是自由發揮、我行我素，他們做他們的就對了，中央銀行歸中央銀行，你們說你們的就對了。我覺得這是非常可惡的事情，也就是說，我認為應該好好檢討前5波有哪幾家沒配合，好好地查，還是要把它抓出來罰，而且不能只罰100萬，100萬對他們而言是零錢當中的零錢啦！連最高額罰2,000萬他們都沒在聽，更何況只罰100萬！好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好！這個……"],["王委員世堅：央行3月召開理事會以後，這方面如果有結論，你看能不能3月底、4月初馬上向我們財委會做一個說明，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會有一個檢討報告給委員，好不好？"],["王委員世堅：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們送一份檢討報告給委員，可以吧？"],["王委員世堅：好。","另外一個問題就是，其實中央銀行法第二十九條不只是針對房屋的部分，對於耐久消費品的貸款也可以管，我講的這一部分是什麼呢？就是現在對一些年輕人造成悲歌的BNPL（先買後付），也就是消費貸款。消費性貸款現在很離譜的現象是，國內三大租賃公司大筆地向這38家銀行借款，借款金額是多少呢？比方說中租迪和借了2,346億，和潤借了972億，裕隆汽車成立的裕融不公開，我們也跟金管會說你要查、你要問，金管會竟然自廢武功，不但不管他們，連金額要它報，它也不報，結果裕融繼續在做。楊總裁，你看這樣對嗎？銀行如果要借消費性貸款，就直接借給消費者嘛！我們信賴銀行體系，它有一套徵信制度，而且銀行知道這些用於放款的錢來自2,300萬納稅人的存款，那些存款應該絕大多數用在生產事業，幫助民眾買土地、蓋廠房、買機械設備、買原料、做週轉金，這些都是生產性或商業性的，消費性貸款應該受到限縮，但是突然跑出這幾家租賃公司，好啦！它大筆地跟我們的銀行體系借款，而且是低利的，然後再用高利貸的方式借給消費者，尤其是初入社會的年輕朋友，我覺得這不只是錯誤的，而且還非常的不道德、非常的不道德！","這些租賃公司向銀行借錢，我不客氣的講，這叫做有牌的地下錢莊，不是嗎？有牌的地下錢莊！就因為它掛個牌，說自己是租賃公司，然後就可以把社會大眾的資金從銀行那邊大筆地轉過來，去幹地下錢莊的事情！你知道它違約金多少嗎？你知道它利息多高嗎？你知道他們討帳怎麼討的嗎？表面上叫兩個穿西裝的過來，後面跟著兩個嚼檳榔的，討債公司！青年朋友們、初入社會的，你看，給他們這麼大的誘惑，買輛80萬的車，租賃公司借你100萬，你買車子不但不用出錢，還有20萬可以當零用金。有些年輕朋友沒有考慮那麼多，結果父母親做保，租賃公司也不怕討不到，而且年輕朋友還有三十幾年的工作餘命，他們覺得這都一定討得到就對了，所以就用這種方式變相吸血，這是在殘害我們的社會，尤其是殘害我們國家未來的希望──年輕人，我覺得這是殘害他們的一個非常可惡的方式、手段。","金管會的部分我會另外找他們算這筆帳，金管會不但自廢武功，而且動不動就搬出個資法，我們大家的個資被賣得差不多了，當我們立委要查的時候，他們才說：基於個資法的規定，不能給你，種種資料都不能給你。這個我會另外找它算帳。但是根據中央銀行法，央行事實上就可以針對這個部分。中央銀行法第二十九條規定得很清楚，你們不只可以管銀行辦理購建房屋的貸款，也可以管購置耐久消費品的貸款。對於金管會管不住的、沒本事管的，央行展現一些態度嘛！可不可以？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們來檢討看看，好不好？我們也檢討……"],["王委員世堅：楊總裁，我對你跟中央銀行寄予厚望，既然法令有了，你有中央銀行法第二十九條，你可以處置啊！這件事情，你針對這一些調皮搗蛋的銀行，把大量的錢借給這三家租賃公司讓他們去剝削、去吸血青年朋友們，這個就是錯誤，那樣子的行為，這三家租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊，這些貸款給它的銀行，當了最大的幫凶，這些貸款給它的銀行，對不起我們全體的存款人，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：那個委員的意見，我們會來檢討……"],["王委員世堅：我希望這個會期下一次會議我們碰面的時候，你可以針對這個部分，下去管制他們這些銀行，警告他們這些銀行，請你將一些處理的情況，跟我們做一些說明，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝。王委員，金管會他有講說剛剛講的那三個不歸他們管，金管會有說了。"],["王委員世堅：金管會不能講不管，那這樣子這三家租賃公司叫「三不管」喔？沒有喔！主席，我再找時間……"],["主席：需要的話，我再來安排。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.72284375,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.38284375,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.56784375,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.890968750000003,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.95846875,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.54471875,"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你要怎麼追回"},{"start":134.522,"end":134.622,"text":"公聽委員：莊瑞雄"},{"start":156.77,"end":157.13,"text":"公聽委員：莊瑞雄"},{"start":176.561,"end":176.821,"text":"公聽會：莊瑞雄：莊瑞雄"},{"start":197.313,"end":197.593,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":218.693,"end":221.756,"text":"來再來提出大家做一個叮嚀就是說給大家做一個參考這個不管是本國籍或是外國籍人士我們其實最主要的是說我們不用這麼厲害我們自己這個土地點館可以得到更好的保護就夠了"},{"start":235.347,"end":240.41,"text":"可以把它降低下來就很夠了那所以呢最近大家看到的就是移民的部分移工的部分不管是婚姻的移民的拘留代辦詐騙這也是還有啊我們整個也是很多啊被收取高額的代辦費其實很多很多那個因為都是因為法規不熟悉的問題啊那這些在社會上也一直在發生啊那像很多人在社群裡面啊去做一個聯繫然後利用移工對這個整個親友的思念跟關心"},{"start":265.023,"end":270.748,"text":"發出偽造：求救的訊息每天都會上當所以這些我反而會覺得說我們檢教機關也該多用點心了人頭賬戶這個部分我剛看到大家有提到也不要忘記人頭賬戶你只要看東南亞漁工去台灣八萬萬"},{"start":288.923,"end":305.514,"text":"立法院這一部分其實大部分都是黑素我們目前針對詐騙的統計調查裡面我看我們現在好像也沒有納入東南亞這個部分你們也無從去把它做一個納入這個移工的一個族群所以這個部分我認為我們自己政府既然來到我們這個地方那一塊會很大的問題那我想"},{"start":316.567,"end":328.79,"text":"很多政府可以去做的部分 我們很輕易可以做 但是沒有做好的啦比如警政署你也在這 衛務部你也在這 勞動部你也在這你只要針對這塊 你都有在那裡廣告啊你們那個就是虛硬故事而已嘛 在我看來就是虛硬故事而已嘛 為什麼你們泰國人你們就要讓人看得懂的語言"},{"start":342.734,"end":348.178,"text":"你針對東南亞的那些移工的你要用他們懂的語言你說用我們的語言在那邊講他們哪會聽得懂"},{"start":350.816,"end":351.176,"text":"公聽委員．莊瑞雄公聽委員．莊瑞雄"},{"start":377.037,"end":386.143,"text":"我們確實是缺乏快速跟簡易舉報的APP或者一個網頁1955跟1656先作為舉報的一個機制而已那怎麼樣去確保他們個人的一個資訊的隱私或者保護這個部分讓他們可以快速來做一個舉報我認為我們也該設計讓他們提供他們一個管道所以我今天就"},{"start":402.389,"end":403.049,"text":"公聽會：莊瑞雄公聽會．莊瑞雄"},{"start":427.759,"end":427.899,"text":"公聽會：莊瑞雄"},{"start":448.957,"end":449.017,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":473.433,"end":480.457,"text":"他哪會讓你這麼容易他會要求你這個國家總部都給他凍結你若重溝去 當然我們要求他理都不理我們所以這個司法付諸的部分我覺得那個黃市長你們這個你們有責任在整個國家加強去跟其他國家不管用什麼樣的一個方式加強去把它建立起來那對我們國人對你們的期待要不然你們要什麼 立法院真的都給你們集齊了"},{"start":501.328,"end":501.348,"text":"謝謝莊委員"}]}},{"id":"149881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ce6259f95e2f1cd8d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a64034e7fd9a14e5935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:05:43 - 11:17:36","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":713,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:17:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:05:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時5分）謝謝。主席、各位先進。有請國防部的邱部長，還有海巡署署長、海委會副主委。"],["主席：請邱部長、海巡署署長還有海委會。"],["邱部長國正：賴委員好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官早。前面有委員問到，我還是要問這個問題，大陸3條漁船進到苗栗的6海里的領海裡面，這是不是已經進入我們的海域裡面？是不是？"],["周副主任委員美伍：正確。"],["賴委員士葆：如果按照邱國正部長上個禮拜在這裡講的實體越界，第一擊，打下去！怎麼都沒有呢？安安靜靜的？然後海巡的船派了1艘、2艘，風浪太大就趕緊回來，然後雷達監控，萬一他們是真的有另外的企圖，我們怎麼辦？所以關於這個事情，邱部長，我請教你，你這個第一擊說後面有很多討論，你的第一擊講得太快也講得太粗糙，因為事實上，後來你們相關的長官，包括國防部副部長在這裡，還有包括你講的第一擊，都說這裡面還有前提，還要經過什麼辨識，還要經過這個、還要經過那個，確定是非友善的才有第一擊，附帶條件很多，但是你那時候在這裡不是這樣子喔！是斬釘截鐵的說，實體越界，第一擊就打下去，這樣讓大家覺得第一擊之後馬上兩岸就開戰了，你要不要回答一下？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，爭議訊息是怎麼出來的？就諸如此類，這就是一個爭議的訊息，我講的，我特別有補充，我講所謂的第一擊，你越界，但是這個之前一定有一個程序，所以後來第2天我們副部長做這個補充，他講得很周延，我還跟他講，我前面可能沒有像這樣講那麼清楚，他當然幫我補充。任何一樣事情，國軍第一個要考慮到慎戰，謹慎的慎，不要輕啟戰端，而委員說，硬起來、打了，我沒有這樣講喔！我們是講說要一步、一步來，但是假如說你到最後，為什麼我們應戰不避戰呢？那個避就是我要接應，經過警告，經過確認，你還是不聽，那我們最後就行使了，我就把你當作你的第一擊，我是行使我的反制、自衛權，清清楚楚，現在假使是咬著那句話，然後怎麼樣、怎麼樣，我實在沒有辦法，精準地講吧，我現在講得很精準。"],["賴委員士葆：比較精準的講法就是……"],["邱部長國正：但是有的時候往往會有委員也好，或者媒體也罷，咬到當初一句話就發揮。"],["賴委員士葆：我們根據一定的SOP，只要確定對方來者不善，我們就第一擊。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有認為哪個來者不善，一定要經過一個程序，比如說他走過來，我怎麼認定他來者不善？但是他有動作了，當然我要做一個反應，同樣道理，由個人到國家都如此，沒有貿然的來看，就是他過來就準備要打架了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你這樣講喔！剛才有人提到美國總統拜登用1億美金幫助我們，這個我們當然都歡迎，細節不講，但是他講了，因為選舉到了，他跟川普都一樣，都是拚命的反中，拿臺灣當籌碼，講一個難聽一點的話，把臺灣拿來撞中國大陸，還特別提到了，大陸如果犯臺，美國會保衛臺灣，我們當然歡迎啦！請問你這裡的「保衛臺灣」指的是什麼？有沒有包括出兵？有沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，很多人問我這個問題，我就跟他一再回應也是一樣，國軍任何一個演訓的想定，你去翻翻看有哪一篇是講一旦有外來的力量支援了，我們怎麼辦？沒有！所以自己的國家自己救，講了多少次？往往因為人家一句話，哇！就變成一個懷疑，懷疑我們，沒有什麼好懷疑的！"],["賴委員士葆：我們沒有懷疑，我只是弄清楚而已，我沒有懷疑。"],["邱部長國正：國軍的任務就是保護國家，不仰賴任何的外援。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我要請教你是大家要知道，因為國內相當多的人都認為只要臺海發生戰爭，美國一定出兵！"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這樣講過。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，你有沒有這樣想？"],["邱部長國正：我也不這樣想。"],["賴委員士葆：不這樣想？"],["邱部長國正：人家要幹什麼，我怎麼能夠主導呢？"],["賴委員士葆：那請問你，難道你不希望一開始打，美國來幫忙我們嗎？難道不會有這樣的期待嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們儘量避免作戰，但作戰一啓的話，任何一個對我們有利的幫助，我都樂見，但我們不指望……"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教你，其實這個問題你也回答過，但是我要再確定一遍，為什麼這樣，等一下說。那就是過去的國防部長李傑說，我們單獨撐可以撐2個禮拜，他講的，等到美國來幫忙；然後嚴明，也是國防部長，他說1個月；然後是高華柱，他說最少1個禮拜以上；劉和謙前參謀總長，他說以2週為目標。請問我們的邱部長，你有沒有目標？最少要打到什麼時候，或者說不管怎麼樣，打到一兵一卒，一定要打到贏為止。"],["邱部長國正：每個專家學者的立論一定有他的基礎。"],["賴委員士葆：這是前任的國防部長。"],["邱部長國正：一樣，大家都是專家學者，但我的界定很簡單，現在臺灣防衛作戰是個防衛作戰，而且已經到國土防衛階段，哪怕打到統統被殲滅了，五星旗假如沒有插到國防部，我跟你講，這個仗他白打了。所以我們要撐到什麼時候？你說他們怎麼樣我不知道，但我們只要有一個人在，所以我跟同仁講，我們一旦作戰了只有亡將沒有降軍，就是這個用意，就是一兵一卒嘛，打多久我也不知道，但是看他要打多久，奉陪嘛！還是那句話。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你美軍在日本或哪裡附近，如果要來幫忙臺灣，最快多久時間到？"],["邱部長國正：一樣，我也沒有指望。"],["賴委員士葆：多久時間嘛？你應該知道。"],["邱部長國正：因為我沒有指望，我就不算時間嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你想都不想就對了？"],["邱部長國正：我想都不想。"],["賴委員士葆：不用！我們自己打！就是這個意思？"],["邱部長國正：自己的國家，你還寄望別人嗎？幾點鐘了還沒來？萬一爽約了怎麼辦？又不是好像約了看電影！"],["賴委員士葆：所以這樣的國防部長要繼續當啊！其他的國防部長都是2個禮拜，頂多1個月。"],["邱部長國正：不、不、不……"],["賴委員士葆：你的話就會一直打下去。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我剛剛已經講過了，任何一個專家學者，包括前輩，他們講話我沒有否定，他有他的立論，就是他當時思考的模式，我們難道打到海岸線就沒有了嗎？所以才有國土防衛城鎮作戰這個科目一直出來，好啦，又被人家誤解了，說把戰爭移到……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有誤解、沒有誤解，我下一個簡單結論就是「邱國正：只要五星旗級沒有插到總統府，就一直打下去」。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有講總統府，我講國防部。"],["賴委員士葆：國防部在總統府隔壁而已啊！"],["邱部長國正：不，這不一樣。國軍最後一兵一卒，這不是口號。"],["賴委員士葆：所以總統府插了五星旗還是繼續打？"],["邱部長國正：我沒講總統府，委員你講我沒有意見嘛！對不對？你又搞到我頭上來，說什麼「邱國正：」，我沒有這樣點法，不能這樣亂點啦！"],["賴委員士葆：賴士葆詮釋不行嗎？"],["邱部長國正：OK，好，我沒意見。"],["賴委員士葆：我還沒有講完，你先不要下去喔！因為我問你的，你睡不著覺，結果變成，哇！這個討論幾天，聽說，這媒體說的喔，說高層對你很不爽，因此要把你換掉，真的嗎？"],["邱部長國正：哪位高層我不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體寫的。"],["邱部長國正：要不要換掉，我也不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體在後面，都在後面。"],["邱部長國正：哪位高層講出來，對不對？那我再講有沒有，說高層很介意，高層有多層呢！剛剛也有人在問嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，520之後你被換掉，你會不會很不爽？"],["邱部長國正：有什麼不爽呢？政務官去、留沒有任何考量。"],["賴委員士葆：難道你沒有企圖心想要繼續做嗎？為了中華民國。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有企圖心，我已經跟同仁講得很清楚，我不是三頭六臂，我要把國軍造成一個怎麼樣的地位，但我要維持國軍平穩，讓他們執行平穩，一切順暢。"],["賴委員士葆：萬一你離開、萬一520你被換掉了，你有沒有一絲絲的遺憾哪件事情沒有做完就離開？會不會？有沒有？"],["邱部長國正：不會，因為政策有延續性嘛，我沒做完的後面還是一樣做嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：所以不會覺得委屈？"],["邱部長國正：不會，不會委屈！"],["賴委員士葆：我應該替你委屈啦！而且我覺得我很罪惡感，因為我問了，你說你睡不著覺，結果你被換掉。"],["邱部長國正：沒有、沒有，不會。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這回事啦？所以不要怪我？"],["邱部長國正：我剛剛有跟記者講，我們國軍有一個責任的概念，就是每個當主官的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你萬一被換掉……"],["邱部長國正：頭上像有一個緊箍一樣，事情做不好頭會痛的！"],["賴委員士葆：來，最後一點，我跟你講一個東西，這個叫國際危機組織，這個組織發表了一篇落落長的言論，是關於金門事件的，它寫到：U.S. and China continued talks to manage competition！我們的海域為什麼要這兩大國在那裡continued talk？為什麼他們要繼續談？這個東西我不知道國防部長你看了會不會生氣？我看了都很生氣啊！"],["邱部長國正：我沒有什麼好生氣，這個東西我也覺得很奇怪，就跟委員一樣，我也覺得這個東西很奇怪，我沒有什麼生氣不生氣，就是不瞭解，我沒有什麼好氣不氣的，我們國家環境就是如此，但我們做好我們本務工作，這有什麼好氣的？"],["賴委員士葆：不、不、不，我覺得我們中華民國主權獨立國家，為什麼我們家裡的事情要這兩大國……現在外界都講中國大陸跟美國共管臺灣海域、共管臺灣，這句話你同意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：各種言論紛紛擾擾。"],["賴委員士葆：同意不同意？我問你。"],["邱部長國正：我怎麼會同意呢？"],["賴委員士葆：不能同意啊！我們自己的海域自己管，自己的國家自己管，不是他們兩個人……"],["邱部長國正：任何人都不會同意的。"],["賴委員士葆：常常中國大陸跟美國講什麼來決定臺灣，我個人不接受，我們要大聲一點，真的要捍衛臺灣，愛臺灣就是要這樣啦！不是說美國跟中國大陸講的，現在看起來就是這個味道，國際海域、什麼海域，臺灣的命運都他們兩個在決定，哪有這種事？沒有這回事！部長要硬起來！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：國軍硬起來是不發聲音的，沒有聲音的。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在先休息5分鐘，待會兒繼續開會。","休息（11時17分）","繼續開會（11時23時）"],["主席：我們開始開會。","接下來請羅智強委員上台發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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前任國防部長我大概都有專家學者但我的界定很簡單現在台灣防衛作戰是個防衛作戰而且已經到國土防衛階段那防衛階段也是打到"},{"start":385.362,"end":413.89,"text":"你通通哪怕被殲滅了你五星旗槍都沒有插到國防部我跟你講這仗他白打所以我們要撐什麼你如果說他我不知道但我只要有一個人在所以我跟同仁講我們一旦作戰了只有王將六強軍就這個用意就一兵一卒嘛打多久我也不知道但看他要打多久好請問你美軍在附近日本在哪裡附近如果要來幫忙台灣最快多久時間"},{"start":414.738,"end":415.518,"text":"所以這樣的國防部長要繼續當啊?"},{"start":439.487,"end":459.507,"text":"其他的國防部長都是兩個禮拜,最多一個月,你的話就一直打下去了。我跟委員報告,我剛剛已經講過,任何一個專案學者,就算過往前輩,他們講話,我沒有否定喔,他有他的立任,他當時思考的是某個事。我現在想講的,一夜不再講,我難道就打到海岸線就沒有了吧?"},{"start":460.228,"end":466.091,"text":"所以才有國土防衛城鎮作戰這個科普一直出來簡單來講沒有誤解我下一個簡單結論就是邱國正點兩點只要五星旗沒有查到總統府一直打下去我講國防部"},{"start":481.187,"end":506.554,"text":"我們不跟總統府在隔壁而已啊不不不這不一樣在隔壁而已啊在隔壁啊國軍啊國軍最後一兵一卒這不是口號所以總統府差五星旗繼續打我沒講總統府要講那個主委員你一講我沒有意見嘛對啊你就搞到我頭上來要敲這點點我沒有講點法不能這樣亂點的賴士葆全市幹沒啥理OK好我沒意見沒有沒有我沒講完你先不要下去喔"},{"start":508.046,"end":514.968,"text":"因為我問你的你睡不著覺結果變成這個討論幾天聽說這媒體說的話說高層對你很不爽所以因此要把你換掉真的嗎哪位高層我不知道媒體寫的要不要換掉我也不知道媒體在後面都在後面高層都要講出來對不對都要講有沒有高層很芥蒂高層多層欸"},{"start":532.878,"end":552.79,"text":"請問你,520之後你被換掉你會不會很不爽?有什麼不爽呢?政務官去留,沒有任何...難道你沒有企圖心想要繼續做中華民國?我已經跟同仁講得很清楚,我不是三頭六臂,我不要把國軍造成一個怎麼樣的地步,但我要維持國軍的平穩"},{"start":554.891,"end":571.997,"text":"萬一你離開了萬一你被換掉你有沒有一絲絲的遺憾那件事情沒有做完就離開會不會 有沒有不會欸 因為這個政策它有延續性吧我沒做完後面才會一樣做嘛所以不會覺得委屈不會 不會委屈我原來聽你委屈啦"},{"start":573.257,"end":588.306,"text":"而且我覺得我很罪惡感因為我問了你睡不著覺結果你被換掉沒有沒有不會沒有這回事啦我剛剛有跟記者講我們國際一個責任的概念就跟每個當主觀所見所以你如果萬一被換掉不能怪我事情做不好頭會痛的最後一點我跟你講一個東西這個叫國際危機組織"},{"start":604.851,"end":625.158,"text":"這個組織發表一篇若若燈關於金門撞船﹚也不是撞船 金門那個事件的事情他寫一個US and China Continuous Talks to Management Competition我們的海域"},{"start":626.87,"end":653.012,"text":"為什麼要這兩大國在那裡continue to talk為什麼他們要繼續談這個東西這個東西你看了我不知道國防部長你看了會不會生氣我看了都很生氣啊為什麼你們談這個東西我也覺得很奇怪這個東西我也覺得這個東西很奇怪我為什麼生氣不了解沒什麼好氣不氣的我們國家環境就如此但我們做好我們本務工作這有什麼好氣的"},{"start":654.933,"end":682.401,"text":"我覺得我們中華民國主權獨立國家為什麼我們家裡的事情這兩大國好像他們現在外界都講啊中國大陸跟美國共管台灣海域共管台灣這句話你同意嗎各種言論紛紛擾擾同意不同意我怎麼會同意呢不能同意啊我們自己的海域自己管啦自己的國家自己管啦任何人都不會同意的"},{"start":683.231,"end":683.811,"text":"這部長要硬起來"},{"start":708.786,"end":708.947,"text":"賴士葆"}]}},{"id":"149880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231351a00edb74a9225f0836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a66a34765b9d30d1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:05:39 - 11:16:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":621,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:16:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:05:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：吳委員早。"],["吳委員春城：是，上次跟你聊天聊得很開心。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我上了一課。"],["吳委員春城：我們繼續討論。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：我想國科會代表國家的智庫，引領國家發展的方向，主委就形同是一代宗師，地位非常崇高，我也非常尊敬。那我要請問主委，我個人的看法，我覺得往前30年，臺灣最重要的事情是民主化，你認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：當然，這個很重要。"],["吳委員春城：那往後30年，你覺得最重要的事情是什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：還是民主。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣現在民主已經很成功了，權力都在人民的手上了，好不好？權力都在人民，人民作主，毫無問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["吳委員春城：往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣有最嚴重的人口變化，高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名，最快的，那這個你認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：認同。"],["吳委員春城：你認同？"],["吳主任委員政忠：真的是蠻重要的事。"],["吳委員春城：我們也稱為國安問題嘛！很重要。我剛看了今天報告的高齡產業，而且最近看國科會有記者會，就是高齡科技產業的一個行動記者會，發布未來4年當中要投入95億，然後整合8大部會，帶動我們高齡產業3,000億。這是非常好的事情，但是不只3,000億，3,000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了，後來就沒有了。聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動能就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟，未來臺灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會，這樣的經濟就是我們的未來，然後一代宗師要引領我們看見這個。但是老實講，我看現在的內容當中沒有這些內容，主委是帶路的人、帶頭的人，8大部會都跟著你，如果走錯路的話，這個問題會很嚴重，所以我今天就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題。這是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱，主委你看一下，你覺得幾歲算老人？幾歲算老人？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我……"],["吳委員春城：你？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我超過65了。"],["吳委員春城：你超過65了，所以你算老人嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：基本上以前的定義是65歲以上就是老人，但是這個不符合目前的現狀。"],["吳委員春城：我們政府定義中高齡是指幾歲？45歲啦！你會不會覺得有點離譜？從國外讀書回來都已經快40歲了，然後工作沒幾年就已經變中高齡了，待退。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這的確，我們壽命的延長……"],["吳委員春城：就是我們政府對年齡的認知是一片混亂……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，因為聯合國他們也是這樣定義的……"],["吳委員春城：但是臺灣是世界最嚴重的，而且是速度最快的，其實我們不要跟著美國走，美國永遠是一個年輕社會，他們是一個移民社會，他們高齡問題不嚴重，臺灣的高齡問題非常嚴重，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["吳委員春城：所以不要都說國際怎麼樣，我們就跟著怎麼樣，我們要走我們自己的路，好不好？我們看現在行政院的這個大綱，這個是要提供你服務的，因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人，你看一看哪一些是你想要的？你要長照嗎？你有無障礙休閒需求嗎？你有老人憂鬱症嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我現在都沒有用啦。"],["吳委員春城：你有生死學的需求嗎？你有預立遺囑的需求嗎？你們全部提出來的大綱就是這個，不是老病就是醫療、就是壽命、就是照顧嘛！這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛！國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛！去年召開高齡科技產業策略會議，這個就是最後的願景，最後的願景文字很多，大家不用看了，就看那個圖就知道了，你們想像未來希望幸福的老人就是這個圖嘛！對不對？安心、舒適、成就、富足，安養晚年，這個就是我們政府對銀髮思維的想像嗎？你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎？一半的人口是要長這個樣子嗎？這就是行政院……這很嚴重喔！因為你們在主導，因為政府的想像，主導……","普惠科技，就是那一份計畫書，那一場會議當中的大綱，所有裡面的名詞，有些好像取得蠻好聽的，包括我在看今天的報告，也有高齡科技、高齡產業的問題，但是我沒有看到內容，只有口號而已，像提升社會參與，我沒有看到你們有提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫。然後裡面的內容，老人就是繞著醫院、養老院、藥局、公園、樂齡宅、樂齡大學、社區文藝中心，你們的場域大概都是繞著這些地方在跑，這個就是錯誤的人設，整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是銀髮……簡單來講就是銀髮思維，銀髮思維就是黃色這一邊，臺灣平均臥床8點多年，已經快到9年了，我們的目標就是要讓他好好的臥床，對不對？臥床舒服一點，這就是高齡科技的目標。然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院，就是要去醫院的路上，然後他是被照顧的，所以他需要的是被照顧，他是社會的負債、年輕人的負擔，這個就是我們現在看到政府所有的政策當中對高齡者的人設，你要服務這樣子的人，但是我告訴你，時代已經不是這樣子。","北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該是兩個禮拜、兩週，我們搞到快9年，如果兩週那就是不需要，因為兩週很快，他們的產業都不需要服務臥床，整個產業是要讓他過壯世代美好的第三人生，所有的政策是為這個而設置，而我們不是在做這個，我們是要讓他好好臥床，你看這個影響有多大？馬斯洛的……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們應該沒有叫他好好臥床。"],["吳委員春城：對啊！你沒有叫他臥床啦！但是這個政策的方向，我現在老實講，我看到整個的方式、政策都是銀髮思維，行政院的都是銀髮思維，而國科會扮演非常重要的角色，因為你在帶路，所以你要趕快把它帶回來，我拜託主委趕快把它帶回來，帶到一條正確的路線。"],["吳主任委員政忠：委員的這個觀念我是認同，就是65歲到90歲，依照不同的年齡層，事實上不要把他認為是老的，這個是正確的。"],["吳委員春城：我們現在其實不是反對那一塊，那一塊只占老人人口的15%而已，有85%「沐沐泅」，沒人在管他們，臺灣現在平均是60.3歲退休，60歲以上有多少人？有600萬人。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我知道。"],["吳委員春城：退休以後在幹什麼？沒有政策，沒有產業，「沐沐泅」自生自滅，各憑本事，人數這麼龐大且這不是這樣子而已，這會越來越多，2034年以後臺灣有一半人會超過50歲，未來臺灣是高齡社會，我們都沒有在告訴……","這是馬斯洛的八大需求，最低層次叫生理需求、叫安全需求，這個大家都知道，對不對？我們現在整個的政府政策是在滿足最低層次的生理需求，上面的需求不是沾邊就是沒有在做，所以要做什麼？要做的事情很多。我真的有用心去研究，我只要輸入高齡及政府的研究單位，跑出來的都是健康跟安全而已，研究計畫包括你們委託的計畫都是在做這件事情而已，所以這個會導致什麼呢？就是你們市場想像的很侷限，產業的類型侷限，這一件事情對未來的發展，國科會是負責帶路的，非常重要，我看到行政院包括各個部會都嚴重犯了這個錯誤，戴了一頂銀髮族的帽子，眼睛看的老人都是又病又窮又困又弱，就是需要社會福利、就是需要怎麼樣，其實這大錯特錯，現在這些人是戰後嬰兒潮，現在的高齡者都是戰後嬰兒潮出生的，這一群人是人類有史以來最強壯的世代。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那我就是。"],["吳委員春城：你就是啊！你很年輕啊！壯世代主張什麼呢？身分證打七折，所以你現在49歲而已，還不到49歲，48歲啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：真的嗎？謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：所以你還可以為國家做很多事情，不要想退休，繼續努力啦！好不好？勉勵你啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：我會繼續努力，在民間也是可以繼續努力。"],["吳委員春城：沒有、沒有，你要更上一層，好不好？所以我今天會有一些提案，當然你剛才也看到了一個，我們對於壯世代這個新人類，其實戰後嬰兒潮這一群人，掌握臺灣三分之二財富，大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面，而且他們平均比父祖輩多出20歲，不要再用過去那種看老人的眼光看待他們這一群人，導致於他們被嚴重歧視。所以為什麼臺灣臥床會這樣久？臺灣健保世界第一、臥床世界第一，這都太離譜了！所以國科會非常重要，要拜託主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳春城委員，吳主委謝謝。","我們再來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.77284375,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.71721875,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.89784375,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEA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像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政 這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導 因為政府的想像主導 這個當然就是普惠科技 更就是那一份計畫書 那一場會議當中的大綱"},{"start":310.712,"end":325.562,"text":"所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫"},{"start":327.583,"end":327.603,"text":"錯誤人設"},{"start":345.936,"end":371.942,"text":"整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上"},{"start":372.762,"end":372.922,"text":"吳政忠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":386.107,"end":414.002,"text":"你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床"},{"start":415.202,"end":434.698,"text":"你看這個影響有到多大 這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他 對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維 這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來"},{"start":437.78,"end":457.552,"text":"我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。"},{"start":459.953,"end":469.808,"text":"台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事"},{"start":473.564,"end":474.525,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":497.601,"end":498.422,"text":"吳政忠列席報告"},{"start":520.367,"end":521.427,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":536.434,"end":537.255,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":566.534,"end":581.101,"text":"所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好"},{"start":583.235,"end":607.424,"text":"所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":608.404,"end":608.424,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231350a995a89069d451308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a61e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:08:53 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11:12:41","影片長度":"00:09:33","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":573,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:12:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:03:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時3分）謝謝主席。請經濟部王部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["邱委員志偉：中油李董事長。"],["主席：李董。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我還是再問一次，今年中油會持續虧損、打平，還是轉虧為盈？你再答一次。"],["李董事長順欽：抱歉，我用詞不夠精準，對召委真的有點抱歉。"],["邱委員志偉：到底是哪一個，會持續虧損、打平，還是轉虧為盈？"],["李董事長順欽：我們的會計幫我根據估計的油氣價格抓，大概在打平附近，但是我們會努力創造一些營利，抱歉我剛才回答得不夠清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：財務應該是很精確的，不是很抽象的。"],["李董事長順欽：因為油氣價格變化很大。"],["邱委員志偉：好，繼續努力。"],["李董事長順欽：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：我們所有的液化天然氣接收站都是在西岸，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一接就在我選區，二接在臺中，三接在桃園，如果兩岸發生衝突，臺灣海峽會不會被封鎖？有可能被封鎖，對不對？我們所有的接收站就是在西岸，萬一封鎖的時候，這些油氣船沒有辦法進來，沒有辦法靠港，你會不會斷氣？有沒有考慮在東部再設一個接收站？這是國安問題，部長，你要站在經濟部長的角度看，所有接收站都是在西岸，在臺灣海峽，東岸有可能設嗎？請部長回答。"],["王部長美花：第一個，假設封鎖，這個是天底下的大事了，全球的大事，這是第一個。第二個，東岸如果可以設早就設了，東岸有很多地質的問題，還有使用需求的問題；因為天然氣都需要拉管線，所以在東岸設其實有很多客觀、主觀的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：要想到最壞的狀況。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：其他國家的影響絕對不會比臺灣大，如果直接發生衝突的話，衝突的區域最有可能就是在臺灣海峽。"],["王部長美花：沒有，假設單純封鎖……"],["邱委員志偉：它進行封鎖的時候船怎麼進來？"],["王部長美花：這個不僅影響臺灣，影響亞洲，也影響全世界的貿易。"],["邱委員志偉：我瞭解，但是其他國家的補氣船可以從太平洋，可以從東岸走，對不對？我們所有的接收站都在西岸要特別注意，是不是有其他替代方案？","另外，中油要投40億在海盛風場，台電出多少？"],["王部長美花：台電大概是20億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：總共60億。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：建置風場希望達到國產化，台電、中油針對海盛風場的投資，有辦法做到國產化嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員很關心，這個問題我們會儘量討論，最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有供應鏈交換意見。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的兄弟公司中鋼嗷嗷待哺，興達海基為了追求國產化，國產化的學習曲線高，當然成本會比較高，如果連兄弟公司都不相挺，情何以堪？現在海盛風場的投資會跟興達海基合作嗎？董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：這一塊事實上站在中油投資的立場，我們也要求要依照相關的規定，國產化的比例60%，這個一定要符合規定。"],["邱委員志偉：我建議一樣是國營事業要相挺，部長，你應該做一個協調者、整合者，思考怎麼樣把國營事業的力量結合在一起。"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員，這個我們後續會處理。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，全球的燃油車希望慢慢能夠淘汰，對不對？禁售燃油車。未來的替代能源或者是乾淨能源，中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向轉型？做了哪些準備？不要說氫能，氫能的部分未來可能會有很多加氫站，這個部分中油有沒有相關的準備？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上，加氫站剛剛也回應過，我們希望得標廠商林德能夠在6月份進來，然後我們希望第三季完成相關的丙類工作場所審查等等，還有包括目前建照取得等等，我們希望努力在第三季完成第一座可移動式加氫示範站。"],["邱委員志偉：這是一個趨勢，而且是不可逆的，未來大概2、30年之內，可能所有的燃油車輛都會被淘汰。我們有設定這個長期目標，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：中油的轉型策略有一個研究，有不同的模式（pattern），造成的衝擊也不一樣。比方說，如果單純禁售純燃油車，當然對你們的衝擊比較小；如果氫能車未來成為主流，這個衝擊是第二；如果全面電動化，燃油、油氣混合一律禁止，那個衝擊最大。部裡面對這三種可能的模式，有沒有政策的相關選擇？"],["王部長美花：相關車輛的，我們確實跟交通部跨部會討論，也確實有參考國際上對於相關車輛的方向。中油的部分，我們大概有幾個方向，一個就是減少煉製，然後增加石化的供應鏈。第二、中油在電池的部分，他們正在研發軟碳，做得也還不錯，我們也會持續請中油多做研發。第三、氫能車我們確實有請中油跟國際廠商合作，目前他們跟日商在做一個前期的評估。中油未來面臨整個能源轉型，它要做的事情確實非常多。"],["邱委員志偉：這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇，中油，這三種策略你們比較偏好哪一種作為轉型的主要策略？"],["李董事長順欽：以中油的立場，我們當然prefer往氫能發展，這樣我們的加油站可以順利轉成加氫站，對中油的業務、商業模式應該相對比較好。"],["邱委員志偉：所以目前的轉型策略還是希望氫能車能夠成為主流，你們要廣設加氫站，這是你們未來轉型的策略，那你們在氫能的部分到底做了哪些準備？"],["李董事長順欽：除了在加氫站之外，事實上我們在產氫包括藍氫或未來的綠氫，在整個輸送過程中，包括新的劑量還有一些相關的超低溫材質等等，我們的研究單位都有跟業界在合作。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的轉型策略到底對氫能投入多少研究？你們的時程是不是有一個完整的規劃報告，可以提供給我們？"],["李董事長順欽：好，我們再提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：最後再請教一個問題，你們在油氣探勘開發部分，國外的目標國家有幾個？"],["李董事長順欽：我們這幾年有投入6個新的礦區。"],["邱委員志偉：在哪些國家？"],["李董事長順欽：包括索馬利蘭、墨西哥、澳洲有兩個，包括巴拉圭還有印尼East Seram。"],["邱委員志偉：投入這6個國家，這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的？"],["李董事長順欽：都是合作的模式。"],["邱委員志偉：那這6個新礦區已經開始產油了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：沒有，現在其實很多是剛通過，我們在做一些探勘。"],["邱委員志偉：這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本？"],["李董事長順欽：這一部分恐怕我們要再整理相關資料再跟委員報告。"],["邱委員志偉：我的時間到了，我也不能占用太多時間。"],["主席：請董事長再準備一些資料給邱志偉委員。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["主席：黃國昌委員，不好意思，我剛有宣告要休息5分鐘，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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總共60億。 是。 這個風場建設希望達到國產化, 台電、中油、海勝風場、島主有辦法做到國產化嗎?"},{"start":197.289,"end":224.805,"text":"這個委員很關心齁那這個問題我們會盡量來討論那最近我們也會跟相關的開發商還有相關的供應鏈齁再做交換一次要讓你們兄弟公司中鋼啊嗷嗷待哺這個新達海基為了追求國產化那國產化學習期限高當然會造成成本會比較高如果你那兄弟公司都不相挺"},{"start":226.072,"end":227.175,"text":"與新大海基合作。"},{"start":238.305,"end":263.183,"text":"我跟委員報告這塊事實上我們站在中油投資的立場所以我們其實也在要求要依照相關的規定國廠化的比例60%這個一定要符合規定我是建議啦一樣是國營事業要小廳啦謝謝伯父你應該做一個這個協調者應該做一個整合者怎麼樣把國營事業力量結合在一起好謝謝委員這個我們後續會來處理另外這個"},{"start":268.453,"end":291.122,"text":"全球這種燃油車慢慢是希望這個能夠淘汰對不對競售燃油車那這個未來這個替代性能源或者是這個乾淨能源中油有沒有逐漸往這個方向去轉型做了哪些準備不要說氫能氫能的部分未來可能會有很多的加氫戰這部分這個"},{"start":294.201,"end":320.169,"text":"中油有沒有相關的準備?跟委員報告事實上嘉青站剛剛也回應過我們希望我們這個得標的廠商令德能夠在6月份能夠進來然後我們希望在第三季再完成相關的別的工作場所省的等等還有包括目前這個建造取得等等這些我們希望努力在第三季"},{"start":321.26,"end":347.667,"text":"能夠第一座可移動式的嘉青市販站這是一個趨勢而且是不可逆的所以未來大概二三十年之內可能所有的燃油的車輛都會被淘汰我們也有設定這個目標長期的目標所以按照你們這個中油轉型策略有一個研究有不同的模式"},{"start":350.95,"end":352.591,"text":"對於這三種可能的模式有沒有政策相關的選擇?"},{"start":381.77,"end":384.833,"text":"在這個相關車輛的我們確實跟交通部在跨部會在討論那這個也確實有參考國際性對那個相關的這個車輛的部分的這個方向那中油的部分我們大概幾個方向然後一個就是減少這個這個鏈制然後增加石化的供應鏈那第二個呢對這個"},{"start":406.591,"end":412.894,"text":"中油在電池的部分他們在研發那個軟碳那這個做的也還不錯那我們也會持續請中油再多做研發的部分那輕能車我們確實請中油來跟國際的廠商來合作那目前他們跟日商有在做一個前期的一個評估那等等的這個部分我們確實中油部分未來面臨整個大的能源轉型上他要做的事情確實非常多"},{"start":436.326,"end":460.248,"text":"我剛剛說這三種都是未來轉型的策略選擇,中油這三種策略你們比較偏好作為轉型的主要策略以中油的立場當然是我們能夠往氫能發展那這樣子我的加油站可以順利轉成加薪站對中油的業務對中油的商業模式應該相對比較好"},{"start":461.48,"end":467.875,"text":"這是站在中油的立場所以目前轉型策略還是往輕能車如果成為主流你們廣設這個加薪站"},{"start":470.493,"end":493.304,"text":"這是你們未來轉型的策略,那你這個氫能的部分到底做了哪些的準備?氫能當然除了在加氫站之外,那事實上我們在產氫包括是藍氫或是未來的綠氫那當然包括在整個輸送的過程中包括氫的劑量還有包括它一些相關的"},{"start":493.764,"end":506.469,"text":"朝迪文才子等等這些事實上我們的研究單位都有跟業界在做研究合作。 在轉型策略對氫能的到底投入多少研究,你們10層是不是有一個完整的規劃報告可以提供給我?"},{"start":506.469,"end":508.49,"text":"在30秒鐘再請教一個問題,你們在這個油氣碳供應開發部分國外的目標國家有幾個?"},{"start":517.468,"end":522.271,"text":"我們這幾年又投入6個新的礦區 包括索馬利蘭、墨西哥、澳洲、巴拉圭、印尼、伊斯特薩蘭 這就是我們有住宿的國家"},{"start":536.936,"end":563.913,"text":"這些新礦區是自有的還是合作的?都是合作的模式。那這些6個新的礦區到底已經開始產油了嗎?沒有,現在其實很多是剛開始通過之後我們再做一些攤攤。這6個礦區你一年要投入多少成本?這一部分我們再整理相關的資料再跟委員來做報告。時間到了,我也不能再用太多時間。"},{"start":564.721,"end":565.002,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"149877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149877","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135739125f8f7ef586b08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6b4a53015686257145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:02:03 - 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Kacaw委員：部長好。今天特別要請環境部部長針對蘇花安計畫的環評，我們先看蘇花改，在民國97年11月10號行政院核定同意台9線蘇花改的可行性研究，到民國99年11月9號，2年就完成環境影響評估的審查。我們反觀蘇花安，我要特別跟部長講、跟環境部的同仁講，蘇花改的難度更高，都先做比較困難的蘇花改，相對來講蘇花安的難度是比較低的。我們看蘇花安這個計畫，行政院108年核定可行性研究，現在已經113年了，還沒有完成環評，這個是公路總局針對蘇花安的介紹，它是東澳到南澳、和平到和中、和仁到崇德這幾個路段，我們看公路總局的資料，108年12月20號核定可行性評估，現在要辦理，原來預計111年進入環評審查的程序，然後希望112年完成，這跟過去已經差很多了，108年就核定了，到現在還在做環評。我們看整個期程，比蘇花改難度更高的……這個反而拖這麼久。這個部分從108年12月20號可行性研究核定，然後交通部公路總局原來預估的是112年要完成環評，但是現在被卡關了，環評初審卡關。部長，你或是同仁是不是可以說明一下卡關的原因？"],["薛部長富盛：我是不是請我們環保司的蔡司長來說明一下這個情況？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請。"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，這個案子是去年11月21號交通部才把環評的書件送到環境部來，就如同剛剛在委員畫面上看到的，在2月20號我們進行了初審，初審裡面比較關切的大概主要有三個議題，第一個是沿線山崩地滑的這些評估還要再比較詳細地提出。第二個是所謂原住民部落的諮商，我們所瞭解，其中好像還有兩個部落原住民的諮商還沒有完成，這個部分公路局會去進行。第三個部分是這個路線裡面有經過太魯閣國家公園，所以有涉及到一些生態敏感區，這些深入的措施希望公路總局再來詳細的補充，大概是這三個主要問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我過去也質詢過前任的環保署署長，到底環評先還是原住民族部落諮商同意先，你們當時一直強調就是環評先，沒有什麼先後，所以這個部分有關部落諮商同意絕對要辦，但是因為這不涉及到你們的業務，所以環評階段不必去談這個，你們要告訴環評的委員，這是第一個。第二個，這個難度比蘇花改還簡單、還容易，結果拖那麼久，所以這個部分你們要設法說服。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不要說說服，是說明澄清清楚。我以前是老公務員，30年公務員，101年開始當立委，我就跟地球公民基金會談，他們以前都反對，我就告訴他，蘇花公路柔腸寸斷，一下雨，小小的雨就坍方。我說，這是你們害的，如果當初蘇花高速公路你們不卡的話，陳水扁時代本來要建蘇花高速公路，就是因為環保團體，我就舉什麼例子呢？就舉北迴鐵路，大颱風、大地震都沒有怎麼樣，這個才是真正的環保，所以這個部分要去說明清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：好，鄭委員，我們來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：剛剛司長沒有提到，有的環評委員說高架，你就給他看，現在南迴公路都高架了，現在的科技都可以解決環境保護而且更環保，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝鄭委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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跟環境部的同仁講"},{"start":66.976,"end":89.444,"text":"蘇花改他的難度更高他先做比較困難的蘇花改蘇花安是相對來講是他的難度是比較低的我們看這個蘇花安這個計畫行政院108年核定可行性研究108年現在已經113年還沒有完成環評"},{"start":96.501,"end":120.256,"text":"這個是我們公路總局的一個針對舒華安他是東澳到南澳和平到和中和人到崇德這幾個路段好我們看這個公路總局的一個資料108年12月20號核定可行性評估現在辦理原來預計111年環評審查的程序"},{"start":126.621,"end":153.112,"text":"所以一百一十一年然後希望一百一十二年完成就是跟過去已經是差很多了一零八就核定了到現在才還在做可行性的還在做環評所以這個部分我們看這個整個期程要跟蘇花安難度更高的反而拖這麼久"},{"start":155.925,"end":183.655,"text":"所以這個部分從這個10812月20號可行性研究和定然後這個公務總局交通部原來預估的是112年要完成環評但是現在被卡關了環評出審這個卡關這個部長你是不是同仁可以說明一下卡關的原因"},{"start":184.773,"end":191.059,"text":"好那鄭委員我是不是請我們這個環保司的蔡司長來說明一下整個情況"},{"start":193.772,"end":220.158,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子是去年11月21號交通部才把環評的這個俗件送到環境部來去年是12月去年的11月那我們在就如同剛剛委員在畫面上看到了在2月20號我們進行了初審那初審裡面比較關切的大概三個主要有三個議題第一個是"},{"start":221.278,"end":245.823,"text":"沿線的山崩地滑的這些的評估那還要再比較詳細的去提出第二個是原民所謂原住民部落的諮商我們所瞭解其中好像還有兩個部落那個原住民的諮商還沒有完成那這個部分那個公路局他會去進行那第三個部分是有關的這個過在這個路線裡面有經過泰魯閣國家公園"},{"start":247.023,"end":256.881,"text":"那所以有涉及到一些生態的敏感區這一些所謂的深入的這一些的措施希望公路總局再來詳細的補充大概這三個主要問題"},{"start":259.434,"end":284.13,"text":"有關我過去也質詢過前任的環保署署長到底環平先還是原住民族部落諮商同意先你們一直強調當時一直強調就是環平先沒有什麼先話所以這個部分有關部落諮商同意絕對要辦但是因為這不涉及到你們的業務所以"},{"start":286.271,"end":310.471,"text":"華平這個階段不必去談這個所以你們要跟那個華平的委員要告訴他們這是第一個第二個這個難度比蘇花改還簡單還容易就拖那麼久所以這個部分你們要設法說服設法說服這些不是說說明說明清楚"},{"start":316.598,"end":344.9,"text":"曾經哈我以前是老公務員哈30年公務員101年開始當立委地球公民基金會我就跟他們談他們以前都反對反對我就告訴他蘇花公路樓長寸斷一下雨小小的雨喔就攤方我說這是你們害的如果當初蘇花公路高速公路你們不卡的話"},{"start":346.369,"end":369.208,"text":"成全日本時代本來要抒發公路喔高速公路喔抒發高速公路喔就是因為環評不然環保團體我就舉什麼例子呢就舉北回鐵路對不對北回鐵路大颱風大地震都沒有怎麼樣啊這個才是真正的環保啊"},{"start":370.726,"end":397.401,"text":"所以這個部分要去說明清楚他自己講的那個剛剛那個司長沒有提到有的環評委員說那個因為那個高價高價你就給他看那個南回南回公務都高價啦現在對不對現在的科技都可以解決環境保護而且更能"},{"start":399.2,"end":399.28,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"149876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231352f4f71517bd345019acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6a711fa33d5d0e6b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:57:58 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11:08:26","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":628,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:08:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:57:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":650,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時58分）謝謝召委。請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁好。大家都非常關心臺灣物價，你們去年年底估計CPI大概是1.89%，後來下修了。但主計總處剛剛公布2月份的物價指數還是高達3.08%，在扣掉春節問題後，您對今年的CPI有什麼看法？還跟原來一樣嗎？或者要調整原來的看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們會再調整，會再調整。"],["黃委員珊珊：看起來應該會比原來的預期高？"],["楊總裁金龍：可能會高。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為4月份電價要調漲？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：也看到很多醫療費用、掛號費的調漲？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些狀況對於超過2%的通膨警戒線……幾乎應該會超過吧？你認為會不會超過2%？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果照直覺來看的話，應該會。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁曾經表示，如果明年的通膨率在2%以下還可以接受。但就像剛剛講的可能超過2%，請問央行會有什麼樣的貨幣政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛也講了，我們會很嚴肅來討論這個議題。"],["黃委員珊珊：看起來不太可能低於2%了！現在電價調漲，接下來要收碳費，加上醫療費用增加，連主計長都說通膨壓力很大。所以在理監事會議中，有沒有可能討論臺灣的寬鬆貨幣政策，即升息的可能性？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，貨幣政策一般也有在講就是，因為它是下來的嘛！下來，它是中長期啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：中長期要達到2%以下，這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你要用利率來做調控嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：中長期，那現在，我剛剛也有強調，中央銀行很重視的就是通膨的預期心理。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以這也是我們很擔心說實際上民眾的感受，其實才是最真實的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點在於，我想問總裁，就是怎麼樣的物價條件會有怎麼樣的貨幣政策，這才是一個原則性的問題，我們大家可以去預期，接下去的物價狀況，我們會碰到什麼樣的未來？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你的政策可能的方向。"],["楊總裁金龍：我還是在講，我們會很嚴正地，很謹……"],["黃委員珊珊：很嚴肅？但是還是沒有原則可以告訴我們？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是很謹慎地會討論這個議題。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是在你們去年第4季理監事會議裡面，我們看到了，央行附了國內外對於臺灣CPI的預測。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：非常有趣，對於今年的CPI，國內機構認為不會高於2%，國外機構都認為會高於2%。我想問一下總裁，是國內機構跟國外機構誰比較不接地氣，還是我們國內機構都是報喜不報憂？"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是這麼啦！因為國外的……"],["黃委員珊珊：很明顯的差很大。國內跟國外的差很多耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，有，是啦！這……"],["黃委員珊珊：幾乎國外全部都超過2%，可是我們自己可以報說我們只有一點多。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過報告委員，按照道理來講，國內機構是比較瞭解國內的情況。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是如果照你這樣說的話，就不會發生我們剛剛講的，明年……剛剛講可能接下去會超過2%，所以國外可能比你還要準。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以也就是，你要看的是每一個機構在什麼時點做的預測，而且你剛剛舉中央銀行的例子來講，在去年12月底的理監事我們也做了預測，但是在3月的時候我們還是會……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有什麼意見，我只是認為，可能我們太過於保守的這件事情，也需要去參考國外機構的考慮。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個很難說，很難說……"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，我們特別注意的就是，我特別在乎的其實是居住正義，房租的指數，租金指數在臺灣居住類的CPI裡面已經連續上漲了31個月，超過2年半，而且已經創了歷史紀錄。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們居住正義的實踐，第一個，在央行的立場，也應該是讓房市緩漲做為第一個目標。但是我想問總裁，如果按照這個租金指數的上升狀況，不但沒有緩漲，而且持續上漲，幅度越來越大，我們的居住正義政策有沒有發揮效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：房租，是啦……"],["黃委員珊珊：租金是房價的落後指標。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的沒有錯，就是房租這個有它的僵固性，而且……"],["黃委員珊珊：央行有很多的工具。"],["楊總裁金龍：而且會讓它要下來的……的那個比較慢。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問總裁，我們現在的政策工具有沒有辦法讓租金緩漲？至少不要漲得那麼大，而且你有很多的工具，你一直都在用，但是看起來效果沒有很好。尤其是你說過，不要因為打房而升息，但是CPI的壓力變大了……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，CPI……"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，信用管制也做了很久……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：可是房市一樣沒有趨緩的現象。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，中央銀行的目標，沒有房價的這個目標。如果房價上漲，但是金融穩定，依然是穩定的時候，中央銀行還是謹慎的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是我的意思是，央行可能要成為一個對於我們……現在你做了很多管制措施，但是我們又通過了平均地權條例，希望能夠平抑房價。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：後來政府為了要選舉而推出了新青安貸款，增加額度，延長年限。有媒體報導，這就是本來平均地權條例的效果還沒出來，打房的效果還沒出來，反手又提出了新青安貸款，反而撐住了房價、撐住了樓地板，所以同時間提出效果相反的房市政策。對於您不斷地在做管制措施，但是我們政府推出的矛盾政策，總裁有什麼看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我也是一直希望就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你也是覺得很無奈？"],["楊總裁金龍：我……不……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是你想管，然後他們又在那邊撐著。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也是一直希望，健全房屋方案，這個是整個的行政單位……"],["黃委員珊珊：健全房屋不會只有一個單位。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不是一個單位。"],["黃委員珊珊：要大家一起來。"],["楊總裁金龍：大家一起來。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是不能你在打房，他在那邊撐房價。"],["楊總裁金龍：我基本上我也非常同意，就是說政策是要一致性……"],["黃委員珊珊：政策不能互相矛盾。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：政策不能自己打自己。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，當然啦！但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我說總裁，你要大聲地說出來，政策不能自己打自己，我這邊在打，你不能左手打右手啊！你這邊為了選舉提出的政策，跟我的是相反的啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行只能提出，就是說政策要一致性。"],["黃委員珊珊：央行很重要，央行講的話大家都會聽，全世界都會聽。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也希望是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，總裁，其實還有另外一個最近比較夯的題目，因為我們的寬鬆貨幣低利息，讓民眾非常非常不知道要投資什麼，所以最近可以看到我們的儲蓄，本來是3兆左右，目前到2024的預測值已經達到3.84兆。也就是說民眾手上很多錢、很多現金，不知道要買什麼，所以最近很夯的就是高股息的ETF，還有美債的ETF可以賣到上千億。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後現在的問題就是有這種說法，當然低利政策超過成長區間的M2，讓大家手上的現金太多，但是存銀行的利率又太低，所以去投資這些所謂定期配息風險比較低的ETF。可是低利的政策同樣造就了很多很多我們看到的投資詐騙，民眾有錢想投資，買不到高額利率的就去衝風險，然後讓這些所謂的投資詐騙集團開始用投資詐騙的方式來欺騙民眾。這兩件事情，總裁，我們有什麼樣的解方，或者是我們有什麼方式來引導？央行我相信也是金融教育推動小組的一員，金融素養，還有對於國人的財經的觀念，就這些事情也有一個主導的作用。總裁可以做些什麼事情讓民眾更瞭解投資、更能夠把他的錢用在最有用的地方？而不至於被詐騙，會去買了很多他可能不需要的東西。"],["楊總裁金龍：每一個投資人有他的投資策略，但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：那你覺得ETF的這個狀況正常嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以才會就是金管會目前也覺得有一點過熱，它也嘗試地要讓這種熱度能夠降下來……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們的錢不知道去哪裡，所以我們的股票2萬點，然後房子也漲不停。同樣的，會去買這些東西，就表示大家的錢沒有做投資，都是做這種，不會去投資公司、投資工廠，而是投資到這些商品上面。所以總裁，我是說如果我們有低利，我們應該要有相對的配套，提供更好的投資標的給人民做選擇，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位質詢請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.49471875,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.45159375,"end":8.738468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":9.88596875}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"end":306.709,"text":"黃珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊珊"},{"start":325.836,"end":347.17,"text":"至少不要長得那麼大而且你有很多的工具你一直都在用但是看起來效果沒有很好尤其是你說過不要因為打房而升息但是CPI的壓力變大了接下去信用管制也做了很久了可是房市一樣沒有趨緩的現象"},{"start":348.791,"end":376.126,"text":"我跟委員報告中央銀行的目標沒有房價的這個目標如果說房價上漲但是呢他的金融穩定依然是穩定的時候呢中央銀行還是謹慎的我同意但是我的意思是說央行可能要成為一個對於我們現在你做了很多管制措施但是我們又通過了平均集權條例希望能夠平易房價對"},{"start":377.347,"end":383.303,"text":"然後後來政府為了要選舉又貼出了新清安貸款增加額度延長年限"},{"start":385.117,"end":410.106,"text":"有媒體報導這就是後來本來平均地權條例的效果還沒出來打房的效果還沒出來反手又提出了新清安貸款反而撐住了房價撐住了樓地板所以同時間提出效果相反的房市政策對於您不斷的在做管制措施但是我們政府推出的矛盾的政策總裁你有什麼看法"},{"start":410.766,"end":416.574,"text":"我基本上我也是一直希望就是說建權房屋方案這個是整個的行政單位"},{"start":427.688,"end":428.609,"text":"我這邊在打你不能左手打右手啊"},{"start":453.084,"end":456.025,"text":"我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":477.313,"end":503.2,"text":"非常非常不知道要投資什麼所以最近可以看到我們的儲蓄本來是3兆左右目前到2024的預測值已經達到3.84兆也就是說民眾手上很多錢很多現金不知道要買什麼所以最近很夯的就是高股息的ETF還有美債的ETF可以賣到上千億然後現在的問題就是有這種說法當然低利率政策超過成長區間的M2"},{"start":505.14,"end":505.18,"text":"﹚黃珊珊"},{"start":523.866,"end":546.308,"text":"民眾有錢想投資買不到高額利率的就去衝風險然後讓這些所謂的投資詐騙的集團開始用投資詐騙的方式來欺騙民眾這兩件事情總裁我們有什麼樣的解方或者是我們有什麼方式來引導央行我相信也是金融教育推動小組的一員金融素養"},{"start":547.149,"end":565.118,"text":"還有對於國人的財經的觀念這些事情也有一個主導的作用總裁可以做些什麼事情讓民眾更瞭解投資更能夠把他的錢用在最有用的地方而不至於被詐騙或去買了很多他可能不需要的東西"},{"start":566.259,"end":593.137,"text":"我想就是說投資人每一個投資人每一個投資人他有他的投資的一個策略但你覺得這個ETF的狀況正常嗎所以這個才會就是說金管會他目前他也覺得就是說有一點過熱所以他也要嘗試的要讓這種熱度能夠降下來因為就是我們的錢不知道要去哪裡所以我們的股票兩萬點然後房子漲不停"},{"start":594.758,"end":594.778,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":622.116,"end":623.239,"text":"王世堅 王偉文"}]}},{"id":"149875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135bb3801278d522fafd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6fe6342ee0b0898265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:50:27 - 11:05:27","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":900,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:05:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:50:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時50分）好，謝謝召委，麻煩我們海巡署署長。"],["主席：請海巡署周署長。"],["王委員定宇：以及陸軍參謀長。"],["主席：陸軍參謀長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：兩位早，今天幾個問題要就教於您。當然今天新聞已經報導了，我看有些東西也說明了，在今天早上6點中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外翻覆，這是人道救援。這個翻覆看起來是有5個漁民，其中1個人救起來，還有4人……"],["周副主任委員美伍：更正，6名。"],["王委員定宇：喔，是6個，6個漁民有1個救起來，另外5個失蹤不見了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：4位救起，2個生還，2個已經罹難。"],["王委員定宇：OK。"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外有2個現在還失蹤搜尋中。"],["王委員定宇：所以總共6個，2個生還，2個不幸，另外2位待搜救？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員定宇：我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，今天早上6點2分的時候，接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知。"],["王委員定宇：中華搜救是哪邊的單位？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是中共當局搜救單位。"],["王委員定宇：所以是中國尋求我們這邊……"],["周副主任委員美伍：中國海事中心通知我們國搜……"],["王委員定宇：請我們協助嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：請我們協助，對。"],["王委員定宇：那我們就出船去協助。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們立刻出船。"],["王委員定宇：這個符合國際慣例啦！人道救援我們本來就沒有在分啦！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，這個也是我們平常、日常的工作範圍。"],["王委員定宇：好，我就是要問這一個。這種要求我們協助救援，是罕見還是常常遇到？"],["周副主任委員美伍：經常遇到。"],["王委員定宇：經常遇到。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有個數字，我們近3年，他們請求我們支援的就有17案，我們救起119人。"],["王委員定宇：其實我現在講這個事情就是，遇到海難，我們基於國際的人道原則，中國要求我們協助，我們都會協助。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一定協助。"],["王委員定宇：同樣的道理，遇到違法者侵入我們的海域，特別是三無船舶，沒有船籍、沒有許可證，連泊港證明都沒有的，全世界包含中國海事單位其實都會取締，違法就取締、該驅離就驅離、執法技巧該檢討就檢討，遇到人道救援，今天凌晨，中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛！所以現在還有2位在待尋求，所以在執法、人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚。這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權，那天有看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡、鼓勵海巡，那個分隊長還哽咽，我可以體會那種心情。因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情，海域被盜採砂石，形成水域的不安、水面下水流的問題，在澎湖那邊也常遇到。所以該執法還是要執法，這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者，兩個扭打在一起，沒有人會講那個是互毆啦！那個叫做拒捕啦！那個叫妨礙公務啊！執法者跟違法者之間是有身分的差別的，人道救援有人道救援的差別的。因為還有2個失蹤，我接下來要請教陸軍，我們在東碇島是有駐軍的嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，是。"],["王委員定宇：就在旁邊嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["王委員定宇：所以這2個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還，不管哪一國的人，我們都不希望有人命的損傷。這2個失蹤，可能會有水流的漂流、可能會到岸上等等，我們有沒有請東碇島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這一點剛剛在前面的委員質詢時，署長已經有報告過了，其實整個金防部東碇島，都是藉由岸際在協助搜索海上有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象。"],["王委員定宇：所以目前還沒有搜獲什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：島上目前……"],["王委員定宇：好，現在有一個CHANNEL72，就是72號頻道，大概156.625MHz無線電頻道，就是海事頻道。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員定宇：民間已經傳出來了，聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求，他也是要找他們失蹤的漁民，希望要登東碇島來協助搜索這個事情，他也把頻道列出來了，參謀長，有或沒有、或是不說，我都可以尊重，有沒有這個事情？"],["陳參謀長建義：東碇島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求。"],["王委員定宇：這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有，東碇島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部，沒有接收到這樣的頻道上面的……"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒參謀長，民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音的。"],["陳參謀長建義：是的、是的。"],["王委員定宇：所以如果有這樣子的聲音，是偽造呢，還是我們沒有注意到？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，因為我剛剛也都有在掌握跟查證，第一點，沒有這樣的需求；第二點，在我們的規則上面，我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索。"],["王委員定宇：不要說共軍啦，我們有國家主權嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["王委員定宇：就算在12海里、我們的水域內，也是我們的海巡相關人員去搜救，不可能讓別國人到我國水域執法。"],["陳參謀長建義：不可能，是的。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個基本的主權概念，所以這件事情就是讓你知道有這樣的傳聞。"],["陳參謀長建義：我有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：有或沒有要掌握確實。"],["陳參謀長建義：有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：國家可以不說，但不能說謊，這是原則。"],["陳參謀長建義：是，不會，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：兩位請回，我現在要請教邱部長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：報告委員，我給您更正一下，在搜救的狀況之下，如果對方經由我們的海事單位申請許可就可以進入到我們的水域。"],["王委員定宇：去年還是前年他們有曾經1架直升機掉在我們澎湖附近。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都有許可過，今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下。"],["王委員定宇：這個講法比較完整，就是我們國家的水域內，當然我們來負責，你要進來要經過許可。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，現在我們是聯合在搜救，他們在我們線內現在有4艘，海巡2艘……"],["王委員定宇：那個是在許可的狀況下。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有4艘，還有2艘海警在線外，所以整個搜救行動……"],["王委員定宇：署長，你再講一次，他們有4艘公務船在我們的線內，它有經過申請？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，都有經過申請，所以我們現在協力在做搜尋。"],["王委員定宇：你知道這證明什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：而且我們一直有……"],["王委員定宇：你知道這證明什麼事情？那就是我們的水域，我們其實不用在政治上找彼此的麻煩……"],["周副主任委員美伍：不會、不會，在救生救難的時候，在人道救援……"],["王委員定宇：你在申請人道救援，我們許可後，把它升高為政治話，說什麼要派他們的海監船、海巡船來我們的線內巡邏，這是不可以的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是只有這一次這樣做，我們過去也都在人道救援、救生救難方面，我們一定是最快的時間去救援。"],["王委員定宇：這個部分我知道之前有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣的情形。我們的水域我們管理，我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權，但是經由申請許可，人道救援我們是可以允許的，這一次就有4艘中國公務船提出申請，我們許可讓它進來搜救這一艘中國漁船，這樣沒有錯嘛？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：這才是一個道理嘛！不要動不動就說那個水域也是它的，金門水域也他們管的，來來去去都由它，這個叫政治話，把一個國際規範複雜化，對兩邊都不好。兩位請回，我接下來要請教部長。","部長，剛才我們從周署長那邊都聽到了，他們要進行搜救，4艘船也是他們主動提出申請，我們許可進到我們的線內來搜救，接下來就發生這個事情了。中國國台辦說臺灣海峽它有管轄權，我不加任何註解，這是他們今天宣布的，我是拿它辦公室的這個公文，在這裡，你身為我們國家的國防部長，你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法？"],["邱部長國正：委員好。中共最近講了很多話語，但我們有個原則，這是當初既定的，我們有我們的主權、我們有我們的治權，這都是一個具體的事實，不管它怎麼講，我們還是堅守我們的論調，而且堅守我們的崗位。"],["王委員定宇：現在全世界看臺灣海峽是有國際水域，也有我們的領海部分，就看是12海里或幾海里，通常緩衝區在24海里外，我們有個緩衝區，所以當它講臺灣海峽都有管轄權，當然這是一個政治語言。以早上這個漁船的情形，它要進來的時候也是照規矩申請許可進來，守規矩，我們誇獎，就照國際規範來做，但它說臺灣海峽它有管轄權，我再講一次，目前的臺灣海峽在國際上各國都認定有國際海域的部分，也有我們領海的部分。但中國如果這樣講，它如果要執行它所謂的管轄權的話，進到或接近我們的緩衝帶時，是由海軍負責，還是海巡負責？"],["邱部長國正：這是有一個程序，剛剛海巡署也講得很清楚，它一有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責。"],["王委員定宇：看它是什麼船？"],["邱部長國正：對。假使它說它有這個管轄權，我們有我們的治權……"],["王委員定宇：我們有我們的主權跟治權。"],["邱部長國正：是，有我們的主權。"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒的是在灰色地帶……它現在都是先打法理戰，模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫，壓迫的時候有時候會用它的海警、海監船，然後我們這邊就是海巡來對應，等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候，他們海軍相關的船艦或者它的漁政船就會出現了，這是它一貫的套路，它在菲律賓這樣幹，它在越南也這樣幹，中國在東海也是這樣做。所以當它在模糊化這個管轄權，或者無視國際規範的時候，我覺得我們在應處的標準作業可能要好好思考一下，這是一個嚴肅的課題，不管在軍談裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的作法，否則這樣一直壓迫下去，我就要提一件事情，我們到重層嚇阻那一塊。","從2016年開始，我們國家的戰略基本構想、想定是防衛固守、重層嚇阻，一層、一層，我們固守之後，具體的作為是拒敵彼岸，所以我們會有一些遠距、遙攻、精準性的，我把它叫做積極性防禦武器，包含美方賣給我們的相關武器，射程300公里、幾百公里的，那個大概就是拒敵彼岸、擊敵海上、毀敵水際、殲敵灘頭，那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛，大概這整個構想、想定是這樣子。但是當你在重層嚇阻，我們就像一個洋蔥一樣，外國人把它叫做什麼？把它取名叫做豪豬戰術，就像洋蔥一層、一層來保護我們國家2,300萬人。可是你有沒有發現，灰色地帶衝突是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣，一條、一塊、一塊把你壓迫去除掉，金門水域、西南空域、東北角，在宮古海峽（Miyako）那邊。所以我請教部長，中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅會不會形成一種剝洋蔥的方式，把我們重層嚇阻的這一層、一層，把你的空間一直往內壓縮？你有沒有感受到這個事情？你們的應處之道是什麼？"],["邱部長國正：他們現在用這個方法，所以我講灰色不光是地帶，包含很多事件，配合它的三戰，不管是心理、輿論跟法律，看來它是一步、一步的，但是對我們國軍來講的話，委員剛剛也講了，不管是豪豬也好或是洋蔥也好，我們最外一層皮就已經在那個線上了，沒有讓它一層、一層這樣剝的空間，我們也不容易……"],["王委員定宇：你現在講是沒有讓它有剝的空間。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為我還有一個題目要問，我希望國防部具體提出每一層、每一層要怎麼守住，洋蔥被剝掉了，要再推回去很難喔！"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解，我跟委員報告，有關我們現在在做的，每一年不管是任何演訓，有什麼狀況，然後我要怎麼處理。"],["王委員定宇：就是說應變的時間跟應變的方法、應變的距離對安全很重要，對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要。","我最後請教你關於無人機防禦系統，我看到你們現在提出一個要採購遙控無人機防禦系統UDS，這個大概就是上次烈嶼發生那個事件之後，我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統，對不對？我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統，我們發現那個標案有問題，你們也拉下來重來了，本席現在好奇要請問，你們回復本席這邊說是9億，後來媒體報導你們要買26套，你們現在是計畫用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎？"],["邱部長國正：請陸軍做說明。"],["王委員定宇：這個金額對嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個有列入到預算書表，113、114兩個年度是九億八千九百多萬。"],["王委員定宇：買26套？"],["陳參謀長建義：由陸軍統建採購26套。"],["王委員定宇：主席，抱歉，我跟你借1分鐘。第二個問題，我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案？因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統整合在一起，因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起，所以我們弄了兩個科研案，之後被我們點出荒謬的地方是，你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做，它就是不會做，你還讓它一家做兩套，一次要買兩套，後來這個案子部長裁示拉下來了。我現在好奇的是，這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試，可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC、被動雷達測試POC、干擾測試，你們變成單項測試，有這樣子嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個所謂概念性的測試（POC），它就是為了確保……"],["王委員定宇：概念性驗證嘛。"],["陳參謀長建義：對！概念驗證，它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……"],["王委員定宇：你們是整合好的系統做POC？還是單項、單項做POC？"],["陳參謀長建義：整個組合起來的，不是單項、單項。"],["王委員定宇：對，你如果是單項、單項的話，我就要質疑你們哦！"],["陳參謀長建義：它就是個實體實際結合我們作戰場景來驗證。"],["王委員定宇：如果你不整合起來，互相會被干擾，到底作用、副作用是什麼，你們不知道。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是整合的，我跟您報告是整合的。"],["王委員定宇：確定？"],["陳參謀長建義：是，確定。"],["王委員定宇：你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC？"],["陳參謀長建義：整合POC。"],["王委員定宇：OK，好，那我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子，謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：是，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外"},{"start":28.342,"end":56.667,"text":"翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個 六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救"},{"start":58.008,"end":63.001,"text":"我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援"},{"start":63.436,"end":92.295,"text":"是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍"},{"start":94.097,"end":112.449,"text":"這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人"},{"start":114.13,"end":114.651,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":129.087,"end":129.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":145.487,"end":172.709,"text":"遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情"},{"start":173.309,"end":189.489,"text":"海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦"},{"start":190.39,"end":218.712,"text":"那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等"},{"start":220.132,"end":247.494,"text":"我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個"},{"start":249.175,"end":277.767,"text":"Channel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個"},{"start":280.596,"end":295.942,"text":"參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的"},{"start":298.303,"end":320.794,"text":"我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索"},{"start":321.334,"end":321.714,"text":"兩位請回,我現在請邱部長"},{"start":348.339,"end":368.429,"text":"報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可"},{"start":374.572,"end":393.04,"text":"現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請"},{"start":393.8,"end":394.02,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":414.91,"end":443.585,"text":"不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯"},{"start":444.565,"end":445.085,"text":"兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長"},{"start":464.09,"end":487.488,"text":"部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡"},{"start":488.905,"end":495.391,"text":"你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以"},{"start":511.286,"end":534.188,"text":"看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來"},{"start":535.569,"end":549.795,"text":"但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話"},{"start":552.47,"end":569.7,"text":"進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權"},{"start":571.267,"end":585.681,"text":"對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警"},{"start":586.732,"end":609.123,"text":"海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業"},{"start":614.565,"end":630.933,"text":"可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊"},{"start":632.301,"end":659.822,"text":"我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案"},{"start":661.964,"end":671.814,"text":"擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子"},{"start":672.864,"end":701.923,"text":"但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長"},{"start":703.064,"end":727.858,"text":"中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．"},{"start":729.659,"end":745.79,"text":"我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部"},{"start":746.63,"end":770.43,"text":"具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統"},{"start":773.117,"end":774.502,"text":"我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購"},{"start":778.184,"end":798.142,"text":"遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎"},{"start":804.608,"end":806.53,"text":"這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套"},{"start":823.53,"end":841.181,"text":"我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做"},{"start":841.761,"end":856.835,"text":"他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎"},{"start":863.444,"end":883.774,"text":"報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。"},{"start":884.855,"end":888.02,"text":"實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ee28ee4f5b45471151d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a64c387a4e6f397e9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:54:00 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11:03:05","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":545,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:03:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:54:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時54分）謝謝主席，請中油董事長。"],["主席：請李董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：董事長，召委的話要聽進去，在回應我們立法委員答詢的時候，你的方向要有一致性。"],["李董事長順欽：是，抱歉！抱歉！"],["蔡委員易餘：你掌管中油這麼重要的公司，大家都很希望透過質詢得到最真切的答案，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，中油這幾年說真的辛苦了，因為烏俄戰爭導致天然氣價格那麼高，你們現在又要負擔天然氣，包括瓦斯，還有我們要用的很多東西，加上汽油都是在凍漲狀態。在凍漲狀態下，中油大概吸收了多少錢？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，光天然氣的部分，從110年到113年2月其實我們吸收超過4,000億，這是光天然氣的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：天然氣吸收4,000億，在政策面凍漲的呢？"],["李董事長順欽：這部分就是配合政策凍漲，我們在電業方面吸收2,300億；在民生、工業吸收1,700億；其他的在汽柴油、LPG也都有吸收。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以都是在這幾年，你們才會在109年度、110年度及111年度各自虧損700億、392億到1,861億，在這三年度是最嚴重的，尤其是在111年度。現在你們預判國際的天然氣價格，你們認為未來會怎麼走呢？"],["李董事長順欽：國際天然氣價格在中長約的部分是跟布蘭特原油掛鉤，布蘭特原油今天是84塊，布蘭特原油只要站在80塊以上的話，整個中長約的價格大概每百萬立方公尺會超過10塊以上，當然這裡還有一個轉換係數，變成國內每度多少臺幣；現貨的部分事實上是有走跌，也回軟下來，大概回到俄烏戰爭之前的那個水平，我們在觀察下半年度的走勢會怎麼樣，才會影響到我們相關的成本。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是你們沒辦法現在就買，你們還要預判未來的狀況。"],["李董事長順欽：是，所以我們大概有70%的合約……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們要怎麼預判？現在看起來，我們在烏俄戰爭的時候也簽了一些約，當時的價格是高的，所以現在當然也是得去承擔這些契約所累積下來比較高的成本。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上我們簽中長約是保量不保價，它的價是跟著國際布蘭特原油的價格在變化。"],["蔡委員易餘：保量不保價？所以像現在有變化的話，我們就可以買到比較便宜的價格，按照你講的意思？"],["李董事長順欽：對，長約是這樣子，但是現貨變化就比較大，現貨可能會暴漲暴跌，我們大概有75%是中長約、25%是現貨。"],["蔡委員易餘：按照你的講法，以後我們的成本就有辦法控制好，是不是這樣？譬如，像現在的成本、價格是八十幾塊，應該是你們預估比較合理的價格。"],["李董事長順欽：事實上，我們在編預算就會估一個天然氣現貨價格是多少，布蘭特原油FOB是多少，我們是在這個假設基礎下去抓它的預算。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以回到最原始的問題，我知道成本是你們很重要的因素，你們面對成本、價格高的時候，又要吸收包括台電的一些政策因素，所以造成你們的虧損。說實在，中油事實上也是現在平抑物價、確保臺灣的物價不要飆漲，你們扮演一個很重要的角色。既然你們是這麼重要的角色，我要問的是，去年超徵預算，中央政府部門大概有2,900億，我看到新聞指出可能會編列1,500億對台電補助，中油有一個好處，我覺得你們有一點比台電好，就是台電怎麼會莫名其妙跑出那麼多民股，你們沒有，你們是百分之百，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你們和台電比起來相對比較單純，你們等於跟政府的方向完全是一致的，你們有沒有順便跟部長爭取，超徵的部分中油也要補助一下？你不好意思講嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上，我們也有爭取，我們113年其實有爭取，希望有200億的增資，但是最後到大院裡面並沒有被核准，我們持續依照……"],["蔡委員易餘：到大院？所以是我們這裡嗎？沒有吧？應該是部裡面。"],["李董事長順欽：部裡面在審的時候其實也OK，但是最後沒有被核准。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你這次也是要爭取。"],["李董事長順欽：我們其實也有爭取。"],["蔡委員易餘：你應該要去爭取，因為目前我感覺，如果去年中央政府多出了2,900億，不管是超徵預算或是政府多出來的稅收，事實上就是趕快把台電跟中油的問題解決好。台電不好解決，因為它有民股，你們中油沒有這樣的壓力，而且未來中油勢必不可能在台電面對……現在電價也好，台電要繼續負擔這麼高的成本，在國際煤炭價格還這麼高的時候，你也要幫忙。"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們會配合政府看油氣怎麼調整。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長不用上來，我是講給你聽。我們要補助台電，台電又有那一些民股，會有雜音，與其這樣，我們就補助中油，中油繼續幫助台電，等於轉一圈，可是轉一圈相對於政府的預算而言，執行起來更不會有一些奇奇怪怪的狀況。董事長，我這樣算對你很好。"],["李董事長順欽：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：我跟部長這樣建議，事實上，這個是一個思考方向，因為中油跟台電兩個雖然是不同的公司，可是在平抑臺灣整體物價，不要讓它上漲的時候，你們的角色是一樣的，所以我也希望你們要好好做。","其次，中油為了因應未來減碳可以創造ESG，你們現在有送幾個研究方法到環境部、碳權交易所嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上，整個碳交易我們目前在評估之中。"],["蔡委員易餘：還在評估表示你們動作慢，我跟你講，未來碳權可以讓企業增值，所以你們要加速研究，思考怎麼讓整個中油這個企業可以更加節能省碳。中油要扮演火車頭的角色，做給外界的企業看，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們現在不會隨便投入成本，但是這個投入之後還可以創造公司的ESG，為什麼不努力？"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們一直在這方面努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這一塊真的要努力。我剛才都替你們說，事實上，政府要實在的給你們補助。","第二個，這個問題比較小，不過我一定要說一下，義竹加油站修理的進度比較慢，你們回去瞭解一下。修理進度慢很麻煩，因為整個義竹只有這個加油站，我們那裡是超高齡社會，當地的阿公、阿嬤現在要加油，要騎摩托車到新營，甚至騎到布袋，都要騎好幾公里，所以這個加油站的進度請幫我們催一下，不要再這樣delay，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們希望努力在8月能夠復用。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，要快一點，儘量加快，讓地方的老人家騎到那麼遠的地方加油，安全性我們也是很擔心，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那是不是有請我們中油董事長來請李董事長"},{"start":21.628,"end":50.145,"text":"董事長是委員好在回應我們立法委員的答詢的時候你的方向要一致性你不要看中油這麼重要的公司我們大家都很希望透過質詢得到最真切的一個答案好不好好謝謝謝謝委員事實上中油這幾天說真的辛苦"},{"start":51.347,"end":72.958,"text":"因為我們當然要負擔,因為這個烏鴉戰爭,天然氣的價錢有這麼高,你現在要再負擔,天然氣照理說包括家屬啦,包括我們要用的很多東西,我們的家的汽油嘛,事實上都是在動漲狀態,所以這個動漲狀態大概中油吸收了多少錢?"},{"start":74.236,"end":102.631,"text":"跟委員報告光天然氣的部分從110年到113年2月其實我們吸收超過4千億光天然氣的部分天然氣吸收4千億?對,天然氣就是阿,政策勒?阿,政策而面在動場的?就是這部分就是配合政策動場的對,我們在電業方面吸收2300億在民生工業吸收了1700億那其他我們在氣、柴油、LPG也都有吸收"},{"start":103.342,"end":128.062,"text":"所以是在這幾年,所以你們才會在109年度、110年度跟111年度各自虧損了從700億、392億到1861億大概就是在這3年度是最嚴重的,尤其是在110年度那現在大概你們預判國際的天然氣的價格未來你們認為會怎麼走呢?"},{"start":130.636,"end":155.552,"text":"國際天然氣價格當然是在中長夜的部分是跟布蘭特鹽油掛鉤那布蘭特鹽油今天是84塊所以這部分布蘭特鹽油只要是站在80塊以上的話那整個中長夜的價格大概就會每百萬立萬公尺會超過10塊以上那當然這裡還有一個轉換係數變成國內每度多少台幣那現貨的部分事實上是有走跌了也回軟下來"},{"start":156.072,"end":172.878,"text":"大概回到二五戰爭之前的那個樣的一個水平。那我們在觀察就是下半年度是不是他的走勢會怎麼樣才會影響到我們相關的... 但是你們買就沒辦法說買嘛,你們都要預判未來的狀況。 是是,所以我們應該有7%的合約。 現在我們看到就是說,我們在五二戰爭的時候,我們大概也簽了一些約,當時的價格是高的。"},{"start":180.021,"end":206.511,"text":"所以現在當然也是得去承擔這一些契約所累積下來的一個比較高的成本公文報導事實上我們前中產業是保量不保價它的價是跟著國際布蘭特原油的價格在變化保量不保價所以變化阿主委我們現在可以買的比較便宜就對了照你講的意思對它產業是這樣子但是現貨變化就比較大現貨可能會暴漲暴跌"},{"start":207.843,"end":212.928,"text":"那我們大概有75%是中產業、25%是生活。 阿像你現在說的話,一號我們這個成本我們就可以控制好,是不是這樣?這個成本,這個價格你像現在這樣80幾塊嘛,這個應該是你們預估在比較合理的價格。"},{"start":225.659,"end":236.506,"text":"我們事實上這篇預算就會估一個天然氣現貨的價格是多少然後原油布蘭特FOP是多少我們是在這個假設基礎下去抓他的這個預算"},{"start":255.438,"end":280.974,"text":"所以我要說的就是事實上中油事實上也是在我們現在評議物價然後確保台灣不要不給整個走上去你們是扮演一個很重要的一個角色既然你們是真正重要的角色對不對我要問的就是你們在這一次我們在去年這個超增預算大概中央政府部門有2900億那現在我看到新聞說可能會編列1500億"},{"start":283.455,"end":305.048,"text":"來做這個對台電的一個步驟啦齁 阿中油齁 您有一個好處捏 我覺得您比台電有一點比較好 這是台電齁 怎麼會莫名其妙跑出那麼多名股的 您沒有嘛 您百分之一百對不對 是的 齁 所以您 您相對於這個跟台電比起來 您這個比較單純 您的定義跟政府可以完全 齁 方向是一致的 這會走啦齁"},{"start":306.489,"end":331.579,"text":"你有沒有審查過我們部長的證書說是不是這個超證的部分中油也要補一下跟委員報告事實上我們有爭取我們113年其實有爭取希望有200億的這樣子一個增資但是最後到大院裡面並沒有被核准那我們持續到大院所以是我們家?不不不部裡面其實在什麼時候也OK"},{"start":333.2,"end":335.341,"text":"那最後沒有被核准嗎?"},{"start":335.341,"end":350.167,"text":"所以我說你這次也是要爭取啊。 我們其實也有爭取。 應該要去爭取,因為我目前我感覺啦,如果我們以去年中央政府可以多出了2900億,這跟不管是叫超增預算或是政府多出來的一個稅收,"},{"start":352.088,"end":369.362,"text":"這起來事實上就是趕快把台電跟中油的問題概括到好, 台電不好解決因為他有民股, 你們中油沒有這樣的壓力嘛而且你們勢必未來中油不可能在台電他們在面對包括說現在電價也好, 包括說台電要繼續要負擔這麼高的身份, 這個國際煤炭的價格要這麼高的時候, 你們也要再幫忙嘛"},{"start":377.328,"end":406.248,"text":"所以我是覺得說部長這個你不用上來我是講給你聽啦與其這樣齁我們要去補助台電台電內他又有又有那些民股齁會有那邊雜音我們就補助中油阿中油繼續來幫助台電齁定律師轉一圈可是這個轉一圈內相對於政府的預算而言他執行起來是更加的更加的不會有一些齁奇奇怪怪的狀況啦"},{"start":410.249,"end":436.346,"text":"謝謝委員我是跟部長有這樣的一個建議啦事實上這個是一個思考方向因為中油跟台電兩個雖然是不同公司可是他們扮演在評議台灣整體物價不要讓它上漲的時候你們的概念是一樣的所以我也希望你們要好好做包括說你們現在中油為了因應未來的減碳未來可以創造中油的ESG你們現在有上幾個研究方法到了我們現在"},{"start":437.246,"end":465.4,"text":"環境部也好到這個這個探全交易所我們送了幾個研究方法嗎?事實上這個那個整個探交易我們目前是在評估之中還在評估表示你們動作慢我跟你講這個東西未來這個探全就是一個可以讓你們的企業可以增值的所以你們得要加速你們的一些研究嘛你們要怎麼讓整個中油的企業讓你們可以更加的這個節能省碳"},{"start":466.724,"end":481.591,"text":"這中油是你們要扮演火車頭的角色,要做給外界的企業看嘛。 是是。 對不對,你們現在投入了這樣的一個成本,都不會隨便投入,投入下去還可以創造公司的ESG,這為什麼不怕扁?"},{"start":482.111,"end":496.618,"text":"是是,我們一直在努力這方面我是覺得這一塊真的要努力啦,我剛才都提醒你們說,事實上政府要實在的帶領這個步驟然後第二個就是說,我們這個問題比較小啦,但是我也是站在我一定要講一下,我們在那個議組,你們這個加油站,你們修理的進度有比較慢的"},{"start":504.713,"end":505.274,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":521.356,"end":521.376,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313551d069a12495df6708cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6341e813343861a055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:35:08 - 10:51:47","影片長度":"00:16:39","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":999,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:51:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:35:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時35分）主席，各位大家早安喔！是不是再請我們薛部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一，二法合一中就你們現在公告的草案裡面，有幾個地方是我們不能接受的，第一個就是我們資再法草案第三條，將本來廢清法第二條第一項廢棄物的定義改成廢棄資源，廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾，但我們比較擔心的是，你現在沒有廢棄物，純粹都只是廢棄資源這樣的概念，它也沒有辦法真正涵蓋到已經完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物。然後我們有說在廢棄物循環再利用的狀況裡面，其實要達到這個目的、要零廢棄，最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已，其實還要它的治理原則、法律架構，還有執法上，即法制面、執行面通通都要可行，這才是最重要的。","再來，我們來講再利用，部長，我們通常說的最終處置，一般都是燒掉然後掩埋，相對於燒掉和掩埋，我們進入了循環使用的當中，所以這個叫做再利用，一般粗俗的概念是這樣子。再利用裡面，你們現在包含了二個，一個叫燃料化，一個是填地，但是這二個東西，就再生能源的定義，燃料化裡面最典型的、今天很多人問的就是SRF，我們希望循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能，我們講的再生能源定義裡面，這個絕對不允許被當成是再生能源，即便是歐盟裡面，歐盟的文件講到，不管是天然的再生能源或者是生質能，當然一般講的都是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分，生物可分解的物質像紙類、廚餘、動植物殘骸、有機物，所以在歐盟的標準裡面，SRF如果是含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電，絕對不能認為是再生能源，我們希望這一點你們也要踩住。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們現在修法的重點，將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中，而且你們明文在草案第四十五條，將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中，就是SRF；你們在立法說明欄提到，為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄，所以將非有害適燃性的廢棄物，經分選及純化後，轉製為固體再生燃料，為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名行焚化之實，造成環境污染。這個是你們說明裡面提到的，我覺得這一段也滿好笑的，因為這好像是此地無銀三百兩，環境部把不符合淨零碳排趨勢也不符合資源循環政策，且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方。其實SRF最終也還是要把它燒掉，這跟你要進入真正的循環利用，把廢棄資源當成資源這樣來看待是剛好相反的，所以我才說此地無銀三百兩，很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名行焚化之實，你們為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為，可是剛好人家就是這麼以為。","很多年前我也質詢過SRF，當我3年以前還在這個委員會的時候，我也談過SRF的事情，那時候部長你還沒有來，到現在我看起來也還是差不多，雖然部長可能不太認同，你認為你已經來了，也做了一點改革了，但我們今天要再談的是，這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界、幫事業單位擦屁股，環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的，可是對事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念，我們沒有對臺灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity、涵容量做出評估，無限制的一直生產、生產、生產，以爐渣為例，以你的焚化爐底渣為例，以其他的事業生產為例，你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物要怎麼辦的問題，那大家就以SRF來解決廢棄物的問題，不過不是解決我上面講的那一些問題，不是爐渣、底渣，當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題、廢塑膠的問題等等。那這種SRF固體燃料產品現在的問題就是品質太差、沒有市場，我們以前就提過，水分太高、含氯量太高、SRF的品質不穩定，會造成使用者拿去當燃料燒了以後設備會壞掉，固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近的日本、韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆。部長，我舉一個例子，你在強迫人家的這個技術裡面，你們這個SRF所收受廢棄物的種類非常多，卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應之處理技術，比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠、含氯有機物質的光學分選機不在你們的標準配備裡面，是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：那沒有在你的標準配備裡面，你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的部分，你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：包括戴奧辛等等的有毒物質。"],["林委員淑芬：沒錯，就是戴奧辛，你都知道。所以你們知道的方法，你們的含氯標準是小於3就可以了，韓國是要小於2，歐盟是要小於0.2，所以比人家寬鬆；那更不要講含汞標準，含汞標準我們是小於5，歐盟是小於0.2，韓國要小於1.0，日本是0，你把含氯的燒出來會有戴奧辛，含汞的燒出來會怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上，林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在，但是我們也已經有發現這個問題，所以從去年我上任之後就開始……"],["林委員淑芬：來，你告訴我你是怎麼講，你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們要把……"],["林委員淑芬：你的作法是說，如果燒SRF，我對排放要更加嚴，可是我告訴你，你的問題不在那裡，你的問題是沒有人要燒SRF。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你訂出來的品質標準這麼差，那人家也不要燒，你說我對於有燒SRF的人監測得嚴格一點，這是解方嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是啦！那個是末端了，那個會事倍功半啦！我們希望能夠事半功倍。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那你在前端要怎麼做？你對前端要怎麼改？"],["薛部長富盛：就是從源頭……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，你有沒有對應的應採行之處理技術的規範？你連光學分選機都沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：我們未來因為SRF要從產品做分類了，那產品要做分類，這些製造商就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有規範啊！"],["薛部長富盛：有，現在要進行嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：你的規範沒有啊！"],["薛部長富盛：以前的沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：你說你要去現勘，在試車的時候要看，那個都是末端了。那我要問你，現行的SRF品質規範有1,500噸採樣1次，但是也沒有規定採樣要留存紀錄，也不需要上傳給你們看，你們主管機關不用追蹤、也不用控管，然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次，所以違反了你們的事業廢棄物清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容，有罰則嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，現在在推動的、在修改的就會朝著委員你要的方向，不過……"],["林委員淑芬：所以目前都還沒有嘛！那我再問你，如果真的要將這種固體廢棄物燃料的SRF當成真正的產品，你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想CNS國家標準可能還是必須經過商檢局他們那邊，但是我們環境部是事業主管單位……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準，你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞，還有很多的缺失。然後現在照你們的狀況，我們SRF淨熱值的要求是等同歐盟倒數第二類SRF的品質，遠低於韓國跟日本，在氯含量、在汞含量也是很低的標準。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，我們已經要修改了。"],["林委員淑芬：那你們說要改，我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子。"],["薛部長富盛：假如委員希望知道，我們可以把一些草案的規定……"],["林委員淑芬：以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準，不就證實了其實你們是做成燃料，以燃料化之名行焚化之實？我要舉一個例子，其實我們去看歐洲的SRF，人家主要都在處理什麼？部長，你是內行人，歐洲的SRF這種產品主要處理什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：他們也是處理事業廢棄物等等這一類的……"],["林委員淑芬：人家主要都是在處理家戶垃圾、固體垃圾啦！這是主要的，因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐，所以他們其實是以處理生活垃圾為大宗，是主要喔！我們因為焚化爐很多所以生活垃圾本來就理所當然是焚化掉，人家是還要再精緻的分選，然後再加工，將品質處理好再去焚化，而我們是直接燒。臺灣的 SRF主要是處理什麼？就是事業廢棄物。我舉一個媒體有報導過的，像瑞典梅拉倫發電廠產出的 SRF，有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備，要做有機物篩選，把人的眼睛看不出來的、人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來，接著進行磁選，然後把金屬、非金屬再分出來，要用光學儀器偵測塑膠材質，分選不合格的、含氯多的、燒出來會有戴奧辛的，不能放進去，即便他們是花錢去買廢棄物，那些廢棄物都是買來的，但是如果不符合標準就不燒。你看你們的許可裡面，連這些公告為一定要回收的塑膠，這二、三十年、幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠，你們都把它當成SRF的燃料，我們就有點訝異，PET、PE、PLA 等等，這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面reuse然後recycle，就是要變成真正的再利用嗎？結果你鼓勵把它做成燃料去燒掉，那就根本沒有符合再利用裡面最核心的，不是燒掉，燒掉是不得已的，燃料化也是不得已的，你應該是要變成循環使用、變成原料、變成材料，結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PET、PE、PP、PS、其他塑膠PLA全部公告可作為SRF，所以你們的這些資源循環零廢棄把SRF當成是綠能、廢轉能，沒有將真正可以循環使用的這個東西，如我講的PET、PE、PP還可以再循環使用，你還鼓勵他把它燒掉。"],["薛部長富盛：那個塑膠事實上是可以再回收，那個本來就可以再回收。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！可是你們放在可以做成 SRF，不就是鼓勵燒掉嗎？"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：是不是……"],["林委員淑芬：那我現在再講……"],["主席：林委員，是不是會後請環境部……"],["林委員淑芬：主席，因為我們大家討論這麼重要的二法合一的政策，可是我們開會早早就結束，然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢，我覺得是蠻可惜的。更何況他們現在是不是像人家所質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實、以填地之名行掩埋之實？以前對焚化爐的把關有多麼嚴格的機制，要掩埋有多嚴格的機制，現在卻為了服務產業界，解決他們的廢棄物問題，我們假裝一個SRF，假裝再利用的填地，結果把關的機制相對寬鬆掉，所以這是「倒退嚕」啊！我們希望對整個環境污染的把關、環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中，結果這個二法合一的改革沒有好的品質、沒有好的管理，是「倒退嚕」！我們至少去真正的掩埋、真正的焚化還是有高度把關啊！"],["薛部長富盛：林委員，這一塊我們會來檢討，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：我們需要的不是檢討……"],["主席：部長，是不是會後跟林委員溝通說明？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以，沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：他應該跟全國人民溝通說明。所以我們必須再講，燃料化、填地也是最後的手段，他不能假填地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之實，真的要嚴格地管制才是最正確的。","我最後再講一點，其實在你們這個二法合一的版本裡面，第九條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責，第九條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環，促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜，我們都知道，循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量，所有可用的要儘量的循環再利用，然後儘量源頭減量，讓有限的資源不要浪費，所以源頭減量也是二法合一循環利用的核心價值，可是整部法就只有這一句話有提到源頭減量，其他通通都沒有源頭減量的方案和政策，也沒有跨部會的合作推動，源頭減量其實應該要更具體，你也要設計一根蘿蔔跟棒子。你們草案第二十五條規範了製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則，其實你也應該可以有相關的配套獎勵措施，如賦稅減免來鼓勵這些業者，除了綠色設計以外，也要源頭減量啊！蘿蔔、棒子通通都要放進去。","所以我們在這裡語重心長，我們看到外國有SRF，我們也來做SRF，可是對SRF你沒有管好，那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實，但是管制得更寬鬆。如果你的再利用填地行為、再利用產品、再利用規範管制得不好，那麼就是以填地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實，但是這樣子是不行的啦！好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。我們先休息10分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股"},{"start":288.157,"end":314.555,"text":"環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家"},{"start":318.038,"end":320.88,"text":"就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品"},{"start":334.769,"end":348.922,"text":"現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下"},{"start":360.012,"end":384.791,"text":"人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是"},{"start":385.822,"end":398.78,"text":"是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括 鈦 鈧芯 沒錯對"},{"start":403.274,"end":422.549,"text":"啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣"},{"start":432.926,"end":452.593,"text":"林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對"},{"start":453.933,"end":455.413,"text":"對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改"},{"start":481.559,"end":497.226,"text":"我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類"},{"start":498.666,"end":508.831,"text":"制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢"},{"start":519.696,"end":533.587,"text":"也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎"},{"start":537.65,"end":558.176,"text":"給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然"},{"start":562.441,"end":592.021,"text":"那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子"},{"start":594.823,"end":614.037,"text":"所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中"},{"start":625.166,"end":642.583,"text":"主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗"},{"start":643.86,"end":659.978,"text":"主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物"},{"start":664.183,"end":689.264,"text":"那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質"},{"start":690.845,"end":711.578,"text":"﹗"},{"start":711.929,"end":738.145,"text":"所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉"},{"start":739.185,"end":762.832,"text":"那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF"},{"start":764.432,"end":779.618,"text":"所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講"},{"start":781.092,"end":806.333,"text":"PETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的"},{"start":808.675,"end":815.359,"text":"而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉"},{"start":838.012,"end":854.178,"text":"所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的"},{"start":855.058,"end":863.605,"text":"我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能"},{"start":876.415,"end":894.607,"text":"假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜"},{"start":906.255,"end":912.003,"text":"我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的"},{"start":922.779,"end":922.979,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":938.669,"end":961.449,"text":"你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔"},{"start":963.471,"end":991.609,"text":"我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的"},{"start":994.868,"end":996.636,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135b8743ca342cb99ac836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6c22e425c45b5ead05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:47:59 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Musk那個Starlink出來以後，我們也馬上跟上，當然臺灣跟中國、美國不太一樣，因為國家的size不太一樣，我們是要找對時間點切進去。事實上，臺灣應該也有掌握到這個機會，低軌通訊衛星未來會帶來很多新的產業的機會，我們也有布局了。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["吳主任委員政忠：另外，火箭的部分之前沒有，但是現在我們也啟動臺灣的火箭的一些研發跟研製，也在順利進行當中。當然要在這邊跟委員報告，臺灣不是一個大型的國家，我們施力必須要施得巧，事實上在這邊我們也注意到除了低軌、中軌、高軌的通訊以外，月球跟火星的探測也是未來一個重要的地方，我們也會跟民主友好的國家一起協力去做，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另一部分本席想請教，因為蔡總統在去年10月有表示我們國家太空科技發展的長程計畫，剛剛也有委員詢問，就是要再加碼至少400億，我想這個是要投入低軌通訊衛星的研製、規劃，以及國家發射場跟人才培育這幾大項。根據產經新聞的報導，臺灣今年有望開始進入低軌衛星通訊時代，來補足傳統4G、5G沒有辦法完全覆蓋臺灣，導致部分地區收訊不良的問題，我們期待未來全臺通訊都可以毫無死角的目標，就要靠覆蓋全臺的低軌衛星通訊的研製跟投放，不曉得目前的規劃到哪裡？是不是就正如產業界所預估的，我們已經要進入低軌衛星通訊時代了？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個有兩方面，短期來講，當然我們的衛星網還不會那麼快，但是短期我們會跟國際的大廠，包括OneWeb或者是歐洲的一些廠商，美國Starlink我們也沒有放棄啦，事實上目前只有Starlink跟OneWeb比較成熟，短期我們會持續跟他們接觸、合作，包括Amazon的Kuiper我們也不排除合作，在技術上的合作。在long term來講，的確因為臺灣是一個海島，必須要有自己的一個衛星網路，這個太空中心有在研議、布局當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，至於國家發射場的部分，當然我們……"],["吳主任委員政忠：不好意思，委員，剛剛那個400億還有包括火箭的研發，除了場域以外。"],["林委員宜瑾：對、對、對，所以我現在就要跟你說火箭，當然啦，現在我們有屏東旭海的科研火箭發射場，這是用在短期的科研……"],["吳主任委員政忠：研究型的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對嘛，那永久性的國家級的火箭發射場，目前場址的評估如何？除了臺東的南田以外，還有沒有其他的進展？"],["吳主任委員政忠：現在進到我們要把未來的發射場，因為事實上要用的話可能好幾十年的時間，這不能亂選，而且未來的擴充性也要大，所以它基本的地理、物理，還有一些環境的影響，相關的一些審查要件我們剛好在2月也把它審過了，現在會持續來進行下面的程序，我們預計在年底會把那個場址選定。"],["林委員宜瑾：決定？確定？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。"],["吳主任委員政忠：也會跟在地居民及縣市政府做一些溝通。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另外，就人才培育的部分，本席上會期有詢問高教端太空相關科系設立的狀況，加上蔡總統加碼研發的經費，所以我們目前的規劃是如何？大學端。"],["吳主任委員政忠：大學端我們現在……"],["林委員宜瑾：大學端的太空相關科系的設置。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們有4個太空相關的系所已經設立了，學生都是爆滿，另外我們太空中心也有一些太空相關的培育訓練營，whatever，包括給產業都有，我請主任說明一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["吳主任宗信：我大概分幾項，一個是基礎，在大學端有4所太空系統工程研究所，去年幾乎全部滿招，甚至有些學校備1都進不去。另外一個是比較偏太空中心，就是比較在培養太空科技人才，太空科技人才部分我們辦了很多訓練的課程。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以現在大學端有4個？"],["吳主任宗信：對。另外一個是經濟部的，他們其實有很多在比較偏產創方面的，也訓練了相當多的人才。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，如果4個都爆滿，有沒有考慮再多增加？"],["吳主任委員政忠：看起來有機會啦，因為太空領域越來越大。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。下一個想要跟您討論的就是如何健全我國資安防護的體質，因為這個禮拜一我們為了討論各界關注的衛星資訊安全議題，美臺衛星安全國際研討會有在臺灣舉辦，這場研討會代表著衛星通訊資安的重要性，不過不只衛星的通訊資安，我國政府各部會的整體資安防護，在臺灣不分公家、民間，在越來越常受到網路攻擊的狀況之下，我們要更有系統地布局。舉例來說，像鴻海旗下的半導體大廠京鼎在1月遭到駭客入侵，這一起事件的重要性當然就影響了臺灣半導體產業的穩定性啦。","國科會下面有個資安科技研究中心，我想這個是負責布局中上游資安學術的科學中心嘛，串聯下游跨部會合作的應用，聚焦關鍵議題的研究，引導策略性國際資安學術合作，同時我們當然也要延攬國際學者來訪臺參與我們的研究計畫，培育資安的學術人才。經過我們初步的詢問，現在國科會2023年培育高階資安技術研發人才有341位，我想請教的是，這些專業人才投入了哪些單位來協助我們的資安科技？我們有沒有想要把這些培育出的人才都留在國內？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個我們會盡力啦，因為資安人才最近是世界各國都在搶，包括臺灣國內也在搶，政府都搶不贏外面的公司啦，但是的確未來需要更多的資安相關人才，我們TACC就是在，因為TACC是一個center，下面應該有7到9個中心嘛，也布在各個大學去訓練更多的資安人才，的確，這一批人才我們儘量想辦法把他們留在國內，另外國際的也必須要把他們吸過來……"],["林委員宜瑾：對、對、對！"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個我們也有在努力，包括有一些薪水的incentive，我們也在努力當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後要強調的就是資安即國安啦，公部門的資訊安全其實需要不分行政、立法共同來加強，資安防護的落實就如同我們國防要自主，所以資訊安全的防護也要國造，就是要自主，我們要自主來健全自己的體質，所以期待資安科技研究中心可以有更專業、更完整的布局。我想我們都要來努力，剛剛提到的不管是資安，不管是我們火箭的發射場，不管是人才的培育等等，這些都還要繼續來加油，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝，國科會繼續努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員，謝謝主委。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：我們繼續開會。","接下來請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.83971875,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.38659375,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.555343750000002,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.75971875,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.84034375,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.60721875,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.59784375000001,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.15471875000001,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.90909375,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.68909375,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.70596875,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.09409375,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.83534375000002,"end":145.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.19159375,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.91909375,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.37471875,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.07784375,"end":213.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.11971875,"end":215.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.38971875000001,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.63596875000002,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.44659375000003,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.85471875,"end":264.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.32034375,"end":283.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.76909375,"end":298.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.78596875,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.23721875,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.46784375000004,"end":312.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.10909375,"end":311.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.67846875000004,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.55159375,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.48284375000003,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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9 Elon Musk Starlink出來以後我們也馬上跟上當然台灣跟中國跟美國不太一樣因為國家的size不太一樣"},{"start":132.839,"end":156.239,"text":"我們是要找對時間點切進去那事實上台灣應該也有掌握到這個機會就這個通訊衛星他未來會帶來很多新的產業的機會我們也有步了那另外這個火箭之前沒有但是未來現在我們也啟動台灣的火箭的一些研發跟研製也在順利在進行當中"},{"start":157.44,"end":186.18,"text":"當然要在這邊跟這個委員報告就是說台灣不是一個大型的國家那我們必須要施力要施的巧那事實上我們有在這邊注意也注意到說除了這個低軌中軌高軌的通訊以外月球跟火星的探測也是未來一個重要的地方我們也會來跟民主友好的國家一起來協力合作謝謝"},{"start":187.26,"end":208.126,"text":"另一部分本市長請教因為去年蔡總統10月有表示說我們國家太空科技的發展的長程計畫剛剛也有委員詢問要再加碼至少400億我想他是要投入低軌的通訊衛星的研製規劃"},{"start":209.887,"end":216.231,"text":"以及國家發射場跟人才的培育這幾大項根據產經新聞的報導台灣今年有望開始進入低軌的衛星通訊時代來補足傳統4G、5G沒有辦法完全覆蓋台灣導致部分地區收訊不良的問題"},{"start":233.202,"end":255.484,"text":"我們要期待未來全台通訊都可以含無死角的目標那就覆蓋全台的這個低軌衛星通訊的研製跟投放不曉得目前的規劃到哪裡是不是就正如產業界所預估的我們已經要進入這個低軌衛星通訊時代"},{"start":258.36,"end":281.99,"text":"兩方面短期來講當然我們的衛星網還不會那麼快但是短期我們會跟國際的大廠包括OneWeb或者是歐洲的一些廠商美國STARLINK我們也沒有放棄事實上目前只有STARLINK跟OneWeb比較成熟這個短期我們持續跟他們接觸合作"},{"start":283.311,"end":311.956,"text":"包括亞馬遜的開培我們也不排除合作在技術上的合作那long term來講的確台灣因為是一個海島必須要有自己的一個衛星網路那這個太空中心有在研議佈局當中好那至於國家發射廠的部分那當然我們不好意思我剛剛那個400億要包括火箭的研發對對對所以我現在都要跟你說火箭"},{"start":313.617,"end":337.459,"text":"因為我們現在當然就是說我們有這個屏東旭海的這個科研火箭發射場這是用在短期的科研對嘛那永久性的國家級的這個火箭發射場目前長子的評估如何除了台東的那個南田以外還有沒有其他的進展"},{"start":338.823,"end":362.048,"text":"現在我們進到說我們要把那個未來的發射廠因為事實上要用的話可能好幾十年的時間不能亂選而且未來的擴充性也要大所以它基本的地理物理還有一些這個環境的影響它的一些審查的要件我們剛好在2月也把它審過了現在會持續來"},{"start":363.288,"end":363.868,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":388.755,"end":394.346,"text":"加上這個蔡總統加碼這個研發的經費所以我們目前的規劃是如何這個大學端"},{"start":397.83,"end":417.528,"text":"大學端的這個太空相關科系的設置我們有四個相關的太空相關的系所就設立了那學生都是爆滿那另外我們太空中心也有一些太空相關的培育的一些訓練營包括給產業都有"},{"start":423.012,"end":437.079,"text":"大學端有四所太空系統工程研究所,去年幾乎全部滿招,甚至有些學校備一都進不去。另外一個是比較偏太空中心就是比較在培養太空科技人才,我們辦了很多這種訓練的課程。"},{"start":443.202,"end":454.273,"text":"另外一個是經濟部的他們其實有很多在比較產創這些方面的訓練相當多的人才好那如果4個都報滿有沒有考慮再多增加"},{"start":455.782,"end":462.305,"text":"接下來想要跟您討論的就是如何健全我國資安防護的體制因為這個禮拜一我們為了討論各界關注的衛星資訊安全議題美台衛星安全國際研討會有在台灣舉辦"},{"start":478.993,"end":500.267,"text":"這場研討會代表著衛星通訊資安的重要性不過也不只衛星的通訊資安我國政府的各部會的整體的資安防護在台灣不分公家民間的部門越來越常受到網路攻擊的狀況之下我們要更有系統的布局"},{"start":501.687,"end":527.693,"text":"當然舉例來說像鴻海那個旗下那個半導體大廠那個金鼎就1月遭到駭客入侵那這一起事件的重要性當然就影響了這個台灣半導體產業這個穩定性那國科會下面有個資安科技研究中心那我想這個是負責布局中上游的這個資安學術的科學中心"},{"start":528.553,"end":529.214,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":551.094,"end":571.77,"text":"經過我們初步的詢問我們現在國科會2023年培育高階資安技術研發人才有341位那我想請教是說這些專業人才投入了哪些單位來協助我們的資安科技那我們有沒有想要把這些培育出的人才都留在國內"},{"start":575.239,"end":596.651,"text":"我們會盡力因為這個資安人才最近世界各國都在搶包括台灣國內也在搶政府都是搶不贏外面的公司但是的確是未來需要更多的資安相關的人才我們TACC就是在因為雖然TACC是我們一個"},{"start":597.671,"end":598.591,"text":"我們也在努力當中。"},{"start":622.001,"end":638.019,"text":"最後要強調資安及國安公部門的資訊安全需要不分行政立法共同來加強資安防護的落實就如同國防要自主所以資訊安全的防護也要"},{"start":639.06,"end":665.109,"text":"國造就是自主我們就要自主來健全自己的體質那所以期待這個資安科技這個研究中心我們可以有更專業更完整的這個佈局那我想這個我們都要來努力那我想剛剛提到的不管是資安不管是這個我們火箭這個發射場不管是人才的培育這些都還要繼續來加油好不好"},{"start":666.209,"end":666.673,"text":"謝謝國科繼續努力謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"149871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135775944908673377951d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a662550bf84ff2585b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:44:18 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10:53:02","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":524,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:53:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:44:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":639,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時44分）謝謝召委，請王部長跟李董事長。"],["主席：請部長跟李董事長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長。"],["王部長美花：是，委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：台電要更有power，中油也一定要加油，這兩個都是國家重要的產業。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：經濟部也會全力地支持，確實他們現在經營上遇到很多困境跟國際的燃料價格有很大的影響。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我想政府也一定要全力支持，因為這都是國家重要的產業。我先來問一下，台電的部分大概在月底前會作出一個結論，就是到底漲不漲、調漲多少，會作出一個結論，是吧？"],["王部長美花：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。現在努力在爭取的，剛剛部長也有提到，漲多少其實跟行政院的補貼也會有相關，如果行政院補貼多一點，當然我們漲的就可以稍微多，甚至可以稍微控制得多一點，減少對物價的影響，是這樣嘛？"],["王部長美花：對，會互相有影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我問一下，去年我們的稅收超過預算數3,860億，不要說拿1,500億，我認為拿2,000億出來支持國家的重要產業，讓整個台電因為燃料的部分所造成的虧損、讓台電可以永續地發展，同時間也讓物價減少它的影響、波動，我認為這個其實是值得、有必要的，部長認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持，我們確實優先來爭取撥補的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為主計總處、主計長有其擔憂，但是這個都是去年就有一些超過預算數的增加，你不用去為明年的，今年的預算本來就照今年來編列，過去我們都因為這樣還可以發現金、甚至可以補貼給勞保等等，其實就現在台電的急迫性來說，在控制物價跟整個維持台電的穩健經營上，我認為行政院做這樣的支持其實是合理的，部長，會全力來爭取嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員支持。我們確實目前都在跟行政院密集溝通當中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望不只1,500億，甚至2,000億，我都希望有機會爭取到這樣的支持，這個不是只有經濟部的事，這是全臺灣的事，也是行政院的大事情，我也希望部長持續跟院長大力來爭取，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：剛剛提到行政院的撥補一定要先出來，補助出來才有後面的電價那一塊，這個1個禮拜內會作出決定嗎？"],["王部長美花：確實我們有時間的壓力，我們也有跟院裡面反映。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為審議委員會要開了，審議委員會開的時候，你要看行政院到底撥補多少進來，如果缺口還是那麼大，當然電價調的比例就會高一點；如果進來、撥補得多一點的話，缺口小一點，當然就會調漲。所以請部長努力爭取跟院長在1個禮拜內把這件事情能夠做一個定案，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個已經討論一段時間了，我覺得也不要讓臺灣不斷地持續在這種電價要漲、不漲的情緒當中，我認為這個其實並不健康，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，我也想要請教一下，所以這個應該沒有所謂的經濟部跟主計總處不同調的問題吧？"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，我們都在密切溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該大家一致的？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望加強跟整個行政院的溝通，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：國家是一體的，政府是一體的，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然中油有點辛苦，中油連續5年虧損，今年有沒有機會轉虧為盈？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，今年有機會，還是要看國際油氣價格的變化，有機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有機會轉虧為盈？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，中油當然也需要照顧，但是相較於台電，這個壓力更大，所以我們現在是先把所有的主力支持在台電，在中油、甚至水的部分，我們必須維持它的穩定性，主要目的就是減少整個物價上波動的影響，把台電的體質再打好一點，才能永續地發展，我想這是現在的重點。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：中油相對辛苦一點，但是也希望中油繼續努力，今年有機會轉虧為盈。"],["李董事長順欽：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。接下來我想請教一下部長，其實這幾年經過不斷努力，包括兩岸之間的緊張關係，我們對中國跟香港的出口跌破了三成，也就是說，其實我們在對美國、日本或其他都持續在增加。我們看到年增率的部分更是明顯，在對於美國、甚至於東南亞國家的部分很快速地增加，就是國家整個整體策略走向全世界這個方向上看來是大力在推動，也減少對中國的依賴，因為中國畢竟還是有些政治因素居多，有可能產生影響。我想要問的是，在這樣的狀況下，我們都知道去年ECFA在12月15日有作成貿易壁壘的部分，接下來在520之前經濟部有沒有研判中國大陸這邊還會不會有進一步的動作？"],["王部長美花：中國大陸後續會怎麼做，我們其實都要做準備，它要不要不是我們能夠掌握，但是我們對產業的扶植都有加緊在進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從最近來看，對520賴總統當選人的施壓是不斷在增加的，有可能在經濟上一樣持續來施壓，所以包括像農、漁、機械、汽車零配件、紡織等等，如果萬一他們有啟動任何動作的話，經濟部有做好相關萬全的準備了嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個都有做準備了？"],["王部長美花：對，包括我們跟相關的產業有做很多的交流跟座談，譬如我們今年就啟動把石化、紡織、機械一起到新興國家去策展、拓銷市場，要在哪裡拓銷、怎麼拓銷，我們都充分跟業界做溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是這幾個部分要再加強力道，就是減少……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然，我們如果有更多的準備，這個相對就比較不會被他們作為手段之一。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，520之前，經濟大概還是中國大陸對臺灣的手段之一，依經濟部的判斷，ECFA的部分有可能全面清零嗎？有可能全面地中止嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們不預測，但是我們一定要做最好的準備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以要做各種的準備，但不做預測，不過我希望也要做各種的準備。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：畢竟一個威權體制、專制體制它的決定性因素不像民主國家的體制是比較多元而理性、可預判的，所以我希望就這一塊經濟部還是要持續準備。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們不期望它發生，但是如果萬一發生的時候，我們能夠協助業者渡過這些狀況。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後，我想請教一下中油的部分，中油過去以來為第一線員工建設幼兒園，我很支持，在高雄、苗栗跟嘉義都有設置了一些。我要講的是高雄的部分，小港有2,333個員工，前鎮有456個員工，林園有1,323個員工，總數有4,112個員工，我是建議董事長能夠慎重思考就近來設置。楠梓也設了，我當然支持，但是在第一線的部分──小港、前鎮、林園更是需要。我知道你們在前鎮、小港有一塊備勤的宿舍，我的建議是，其實備勤宿舍讓第一線員工能夠做好工作、服務，特別現在往洲際二期在發展的時候，中油在這邊的量會越來越吃重，我希望中油慎重評估在上面有一些宿舍以外，在1樓的部分能有幼兒園的設施，讓員工未來在招募、甚至照顧家庭的時候更無後顧之憂，董事長要不要說明一下？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，目前我們除了高雄、嘉義、苗栗，臺北總公司其實也設了，這個都是為了讓我們的同仁能夠安心上班。至於委員提的部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：第一線更應該做，好不好？第一線更多的員工……"],["李董事長順欽：對，我們再研議，好不好？因為在小港地區大林廠現在有二千多位員工，林園場大概也有一千四、五百位員工，我們再研議一下……"],["賴委員瑞隆：最多的都是在這個地方，我希望一個禮拜內把你們的評估結果給我知道，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：我們來研議一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長、謝謝董事長。"],["主席：中油董事長，我提醒你一下，同樣的問題你每一次的回答都不一樣，剛剛本席問你中油會不會轉虧為盈，你跟我說會打平；賴瑞隆問你，你跟他說會轉虧為盈；剛剛張啓楷問你如果打仗的時候，儲槽的儲存量是多少，你不回答，所以我挺你；下面換鄭正鈐委員上來問同樣一個問題，你就把日期都講出來了！我覺得主席在這裡被你當傻瓜，我挺你挺假的！同樣一個問題，我第一個問你今年會不會轉虧為盈，你跟我說會打平，我相信你說的會打平；賴瑞隆委員問你同樣一個問題，你跟他說會轉虧為盈，你不是在給我「裝肖仔」！"],["李董事長順欽：我們是希望努力。"],["主席：你剛剛沒有這樣回答我，你跟我說今年會打平。好啦！被你們氣死了！","請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝召委請王部長跟李董事長來請部長跟李董事長"},{"start":13.311,"end":40.998,"text":"部長臺電要更有炮和中油也一定要加油這兩個都是國家重要的產業經濟部也會全力的支持確實他們現在所經營上遇到很多困境跟國際燃料價格有很大的影響所以我想政府也一定要全力支持因為這都是國家重要的一個產業那我先來問一下其實臺電的部分這個大概在月底前會做出一個結論就是說到底調漲多少長不長調漲多少會做出一個結論是吧"},{"start":44.256,"end":63.248,"text":"會 是好 那現在在努力在爭取的因為我看部長也提到其實漲多少其實跟包括它的整個跟行政院的這個補貼也會有相關嗎如果行政院補貼多一點當然我們漲的就可以稍微多甚至可以稍微控制的多一點減少對物價的一個影響是這樣嗎"},{"start":64.809,"end":92.387,"text":"會互相有影響對那我問一下其實去年我們的這個稅收超過預算數3860億這個我認為如果拿不要說拿1500億我認為拿2000億出來的話來支持國家的中小產業讓整個台電的因為燃料的部分所造成虧損讓台電可以永續的發展同時間也讓物價減少它的影響波動我認為這個其實是值得有必要的部長認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":93.472,"end":117.843,"text":"謝謝委員支持,那我們就是確實優先來爭取撥補的部分因為我認為主計總署這個主委長他的擔憂啦當然那個但是這個都是去年就有一些超過預算數的增加了嘛那你不用去為為明年的今年預算本來就照今年來編列嘛明年所以我認為有這樣那過去來我們都還有因為這樣而可以發現金甚至可以"},{"start":118.363,"end":122.428,"text":"我認為在控制物價跟整個維持台電的穩健經營上我認為行政院做這樣的一個支持其實是合理的部長會全力來爭取嗎?"},{"start":134.341,"end":151.853,"text":"是,謝謝委員支持,那我們確實目前都在跟行政院密集溝通我希望不只1500億甚至2000億,我都希望如果有機會來爭取到這樣來支持這個不是只有經濟部的事,這是全台灣的事,也是行政院的大事情那我也希望部長磁力跟院長來大力來爭取"},{"start":154.955,"end":170.26,"text":"另外當然就是所以這個會因為剛剛提到行政的撥補一定要先出來補助出來才有後面的電價那一塊那這個一個禮拜內會做出決定嗎確實我們有時間的壓力那我們也有跟院裡面反映"},{"start":171.561,"end":193.455,"text":"因為審議委員會要開嘛,審議委員會要開的時候你要看行政到底有撥補多少進來會影響到如果缺口還是那麼大那當然電價調的比例就會高一點那如果進來的撥補的多一點的話缺口小一點當然就會調少所以請部長好不好努力爭取是不是跟院長能這個一個禮拜內把這事情能夠做一個定案好不好那也讓人發現這已經討論一段時間了我覺得不要讓台灣不斷的持續在這種電價要漲不漲這樣的情緒當中我認為這個其實並不健康啦好不好"},{"start":201.14,"end":219.57,"text":"另外我也想請教一下,所以這個應該沒有所謂的經濟部跟主計總處不同調的問題吧?沒有沒有,不是,我們都在密切溝通。我也希望加強跟整個行政院的溝通,國家是一體的,政府是一體的。當然中油也很辛苦,我認為中油連續5年是虧損,今年有沒有機會轉虧為盈?"},{"start":224.797,"end":247.92,"text":"跟委員報告今年有機會還是要看國際油氣價格的變化所以有機會轉會員部長其實中油當然也需要照顧但是相較於台電這個壓力更大所以我現在我們現在是先把所有的主力支持在台電那在中油甚至水的部分我們必須要維持它的穩定性主要目的就是減少整個物價上的一些波動的影響"},{"start":249.161,"end":270.639,"text":"台電的問題先做一個好的一個把體質再打好一點然後永續的發展我想這是現在的一個重點當然中油相對辛苦一點當然希望中油繼續努力今年有機會來轉擴會委員謝謝委員接下來我想請教一下部長其實我們這幾年經過不斷努力包圍兩岸之間的緊張關係其實我們對中國跟香港的這個"},{"start":271.92,"end":296.643,"text":"出口跌破了三成也就是說其實我們在對美國日本或其他的都持續在增加那我們看到那個年增率的部分更是明顯了在對於美國甚至於東南亞這個國家的部分其實很快速增加就是國家的整個整體策略方向走向全世界這個方向上看來是大力在推動那也減少對中國的依賴因為中國畢竟還是有些"},{"start":297.163,"end":299.624,"text":"在520之前的時候經濟部門研判中國大陸這邊還會有進一步的動作"},{"start":317.479,"end":332.497,"text":"我們中國大陸他後續會怎麼做我們其實都要做準備他要不要這個不是我們能夠掌握但是呢我們對產業的這些的扶植的我們都有加緊在進行"},{"start":333.818,"end":353.645,"text":"從最近來看不斷的對520這個賴總統當選的這個施壓是不斷在增加的那有可能在經濟上一樣持續來施壓所以包括像農漁機械、汽車的零配件包括紡織等等經濟部有做好的相關的萬全的準備了嗎?如果萬一他們有啟動任何的動作的話是是是所以這個都有做的準備了"},{"start":353.965,"end":362.331,"text":"所以比如說包括我們其實跟相關的產業有做很多的交流跟座談那比如說我們現在其實今年就啟動比如說包括把石化紡織機械一起到新興國家去這個展去拓銷市場那這個要到哪裡拓銷怎麼拓銷我們都充分跟業界做這個溝通"},{"start":376.701,"end":395.859,"text":"特別是這幾個的部分要再加強它的力道,減少那個,那當然我們如果有更多的準備的時候,其實這個反對就比較不會被成為是這個作為他們的手段之一。另外520之前的時候,因為經濟大概也是中國大陸對台灣的一個手段之一。"},{"start":397.04,"end":412.252,"text":"有可能經濟部的判斷有可能全面清零嗎?有可能全面的終止嗎?ECFA的部分我們不預測但是我們一定是要做最好的準備所以要做各種的準備啦齁做各種準備但不做預測但是我希望也要做各種的一個準備"},{"start":413.092,"end":428.175,"text":"畢竟一個威權的體制、專制體制它的決定性的因素不像民主國家體制是比較多元而理性可預判的所以我希望這一塊經濟部還是要持續準備我不期望它發生但是如果萬一它發生的時候我們能夠協助我們業者度過這些狀況"},{"start":430.657,"end":448.791,"text":"最後想請教一下中油的部分中油其實在過去以來對於幼兒園的建設這個我很支持讓員工、第一線員工在高雄、苗栗跟嘉義都有設置的一些那我要講的是高雄的部分小港有2333個員工前陣有456個員工林園有1323個員工總數有4112個員工"},{"start":456.337,"end":481.305,"text":"究竟來設置我是建議董事長這邊能夠慎重思考男子那也設了這個我當然支持但是我說在第一線的部分小港前陣零元更是需要了那我知道你們在前陣在小港有一塊背勤的宿舍我建議其實背勤宿舍讓員工第一線能夠做好的一些工作服務特別現在往週季二期在發展的時候中油在這邊的量會越來越吃重我希望中油慎重的評估"},{"start":482.265,"end":507.827,"text":"在上面有一些宿舍以外在一樓的部分能有休業委員的設施讓員工未來在招募甚至他們的照顧家庭的時候更無後顧之憂董事長要不要說明一下根文報告目前當然我們除了高雄、嘉義、苗栗、台北總公司其實也設了這個都是為了讓我們的同仁能夠安心上班第一線更應該做了好不好第一線更多員工在第一線好不好因為這一塊"},{"start":508.667,"end":508.787,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]}},{"id":"149870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231357f19984b9365c9f09acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6a00f58aa63e905615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：總裁早！您看一下這個圖，我們全臺有三個鄉鎮市是完全沒有任何的金融機構，包括郵局、農會的機構都沒有，它是花蓮的萬榮、臺東的金峰以及屏東的獅子鄉，這三個鄉剛好都是原住民鄉鎮，如果我們要來看到底要走多遠才能夠找到ATM提款機，冠軍是花蓮的卓溪鄉，平均是方圓510平方公里，也就是要跋山涉水才能夠去提領錢，特別這個問題凸顯政府在發錢的時候，很多人就很頭痛，為了領那個3,000塊、6,000塊，可能還要去叫車，叫個計程車一千多塊就為了領那幾千塊，所以金融普及確實很重要。為什麼我這樣子問？因為我在業報上有看到，中央銀行正在推動發行所謂的數位貨幣CBDC，報告裡面有指出已經完成批發型跟零售型的研究，而且央行已經去展示過這個數位貨幣，有找到試驗場景試點，目前也正在辦理意見的調查，想要請教一下總裁，這個數位貨幣CBDC的使用模式，如果說拿金融卡、信用卡、悠遊卡、電子支付，它比較類似哪一種？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，它跟電子支付是比較像，還有就是行動錢包，就是你手機的行動錢包，這個就跟電子支付是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，就是類似電子支付、電子錢包嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就是想要請教總裁，您認為未來如果開始在市場上發行，對我們偏鄉預期會有幫助嗎？幫助是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想政府的e化，包括電子支付，e化最主要的目的就是financial inclusion，金融的普及化，如果電子支付都能夠到偏鄉去的話，那它的金融的普及化就會更高，那就所有的人……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，如果沒電沒網路呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然現在……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以數發部現在是管NCC嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：不，NCC……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以那些政府也要配套嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過如果沒有電、沒有那個的話，這個也就是CBDC要面對的一個問題，你是不是能夠在離線的支付……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，離線支付，所以總裁，現在因為你們正在做意見調查，所以我想知道你們還會不會去找那些像偏鄉的地方去做測試、試點，你評估的時候、意見蒐集的時候，你可不可以將協助偏鄉金融作為你們的重點評估項目之一，會嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，因為我們從這個時點要到這個時點恐怕還要一段時間的路程，但是委員有提出了這樣的一個建議，事實上我們把它聽進去，因為誠如我說的，我們這裡到這裡還有一段時間，我們還可以考慮的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望在你們的意見蒐集裡面要把這個評估進來，未來評估報告也讓我們瞭解一下好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝您。所以我接下來想要請教一下總裁，過去像2020年總統就職你們有發行就職紀念幣，我不太曉得今年會發行嗎？預計要發行多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：伍委員，這個我請我們的發行局，這個是他在職掌的，我請他來回答好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["鄧局長延達：謝謝委員，今年的總統副總統就職紀念幣，總統當選人已經同意以實體的紀念幣形式發行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以會跟這個一樣是實體紀念幣？"],["鄧局長延達：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，那預計發行量？"],["鄧局長延達：我們會採網路預購。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來決定它的發行數量？"],["鄧局長延達：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那相片挑好了嗎？"],["鄧局長延達：現在都已經挑好了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為是金鑄嘛！用金子鑄造，大家是有反映說長得不像，你看左邊那個，可能會有一個最近新聞人物，很像，那個男的也不像，因為我知道金鑄其實可能有它技術的問題，不容易去很像，但是我們還是希望很像，因為收藏的人希望很像，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄧局長延達：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我這樣子問？因為像NFT有發行數位幣，因為是數位就很像嘛！那金鑄造可能就容易失真，但是我只是做這樣的提醒。除了實體版，有沒有可能發行數位版的紀念幣？因為剛才總裁在回應別的委員的時候也承認數位是一個趨勢嘛！"],["鄧局長延達：依據中央銀行法第十五條還有第十八條，還有我們金銀幣紀念的發行辦法，現在我們的國幣還有紀念性的券跟幣只有實體。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以沒有打算發行數位的？"],["鄧局長延達：沒有，法源上面是還有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：既然是趨勢，不要講法源啦，就修嘛！因為是趨勢，為什麼我這樣講？因為很多人關心能不能夠去結合一些線上遊戲，像生存遊戲可以在AR、VR呈現虛擬實境等等，因為他們覺得其實這個會是一個不錯的新玩意，我想你們可以去考慮看看好不好？這是很多人的期待啦！","接下來我也想瞭解，因為過去在1998到2011年，中央銀行都有發售14族的原住民套幣，但是後來就沒有，而且在這些年當中，14族已經變16族，甚至未來可能還會有一些平埔族群，像西拉雅族，所以我是想說能不能夠透過數位版再版？"],["楊總裁金龍：伍委員的這個建議我覺得非常好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這個可以結合很多現在的……可以來玩。"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個、實體版的我們一定也可以發行，至於剛剛你建議的數位版，數位版當然也不是因為法源沒有，假如這是一個趨勢，也許以後……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：國外啊、國際啊！他對原住民很有興趣啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：譬如說CBDC它也要有法源什麼的，這些恐怕都是要以後來設計。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要儘早修啦！因為一直講法源就不對了，因為是趨勢就要主動積極來修好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會來考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝總裁。我其實會關心這個也是因為偏鄉未來的發展趨勢，2019年央行有一個新聞稿寫到在規劃建置電子支付跨機構共用平台以利支付業者能陸續加入，我現在是知道全支付在3月11號有加入，街口支付預計在7月加入，可是大家最關心，就是使用人口最多的LINE Pay不曉得什麼時候會加入？"],["楊總裁金龍：伍委員，我是不是請財金公司的董事長來回答你的問題？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["林董事長國良：委員好，跟委員報告，LINE Pay在現在的市場上它是第三方支付，現在的電子支付跨機構平台，金管會核准我們的服務範圍是金融機構跟電支機構，所以這兩個，電支機構跟第三方機構的法源不一樣，所以它的管理不一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，又是法源，我是這樣子想，因為我也知道有看過你們說是第三方支付的關係，可是我的看法是這樣，因為在技術層面上，第三方支付的金流還是要依賴電子支付跟銀行處理，我是覺得技術上你們研究一下，應該是可行；另外一方面，它的適法性、法源，那支付清算平台也是依電子支付條例來執行，可是跟它前端的QR code，它其實沒有法去規範，所以我覺得這是兩碼子事，應該要去朝向簡便民、流通，還是要去克服，可以嗎？"],["林董事長國良：是的，好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，除了簡便民、方便流通，我覺得央行也有促進金融穩定的任務，我是在業報上看到你們說本行選擇性信用管制措施實施以來，不動產貸款成長率下降，確實從2020年起，央行有祭出五波的選擇性信用貸款，希望可以抑制投資性的資金，我會問這個問題是因為確實我們來看這個數據，建築貸款就是黃色線，它的年增率是下降的，但是藍色線的消費住宅貸款是增加的，我本來是想要問總裁，您知道原因是什麼嗎？我就直接講，因為時間的關係，因為去年第三季的房價增長是趨緩的，可是你看第四季，這個表格你可以看到暴衝，例如像新竹光是3個月內房子就漲15%，你應該很清楚知道我要問什麼，因為財政部在2020年放寬房地合一稅的五年期限，去年（2023年）8月又推出新青安貸2.0，也把兩年到五年的限制放寬了，所以很多廠商找到促銷的門道與策略，央行有穩定總體金融的責任，是不是可以就此做評估報告？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝總裁，謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.91221875,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.544718750000001,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.29909375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.37409375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.36534375,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.41409375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.11784375,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.19846875,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.72721875,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.30096875000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.74784375,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.08846875,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.45096875,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.34034375,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.33971875,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.92596875,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.54096875000002,"end":138.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.99659375000002,"end":139.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.21409375000002,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.95471875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.40596875,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.69659375,"end":170.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.04221875000002,"end":182.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.89721875,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.27659375000002,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.03596875000002,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.91721875000002,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.76471875000001,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.26221875000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":204.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.02784375000002,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.80409375000002,"end":210.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.90096875,"end":212.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.71596875,"end":238.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.52534375000002,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.75221875000003,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.09346875000003,"end":248.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.71221875000003,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.53034375000004,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.33596875,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.25534375,"end":265.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.30596875000003,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.91346875,"end":267.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.22971875,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.68534375,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.28409375,"end":270.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.30096875000004,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.97971875,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.17346875000004,"end":277.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.00034375,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.32846875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.08784375,"end":291.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.81721875,"end":288.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.96471875000003,"end":289.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.38659375000003,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.72409375,"end":289.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.61846875000003,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.63534375,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.0653437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嗯 啊 冠軍呢是花蓮的佐西鄉平均呢方圓510平方公里也就是說要拔山涉水才能夠去提領錢那特別這個問題凸顯吼就是政府在發錢的時候 嗯"},{"start":63.044,"end":80.282,"text":"欸很多人就很頭痛為了領那個三千塊六千塊可能還要去叫車叫個計程車一千多塊就為了領那幾千塊所以金融普及確實很重要那為什麼我這樣子問因為我在夜報上有看到"},{"start":81.363,"end":97.679,"text":"中央銀行這邊正在推動發行一個所謂的數位貨幣CBDC報告裡面有指出已經完成批發型跟零售型的研究而且央行已經去展示過這個數位貨幣有找到試驗場景試點"},{"start":102.463,"end":116.775,"text":"那目前也正在辦理意見的調查想要請教一下總裁這個數位貨幣CPTC他的使用模式如果說拿金融卡信用卡悠遊卡電子支付他比較類似哪一種"},{"start":118.857,"end":131.661,"text":"我跟委員報告齁他是比較他跟他跟電子支付是比較像還有就是行動錢包你手機的那個行動錢包"},{"start":133.422,"end":135.864,"text":"我就是想要請教總裁那您認為未來如果這個開始在市場上發行對我們偏鄉預期會有幫助嗎幫助是什麼"},{"start":151.558,"end":170.075,"text":"我想就是說政府的這個依化包括電子支付依化的最主要的目的就是金融的就是financial inclusion金融的普及化"},{"start":171.089,"end":182.355,"text":"金融的普及化金融的普及化如果說電子資料都能夠到偏鄉去的話那他的金融的普及化呢就會更高好那如果沒電沒網路呢沒電沒網路當然現在呢所以速發部現在是管NCC嗎"},{"start":194.122,"end":196.365,"text":"所以那些政府也要配套嗎對離線支付"},{"start":211.522,"end":231.835,"text":"所以總裁我現在就是說因為你們正在做意見調查嘛所以我想知道說你們還會不會去找那些像偏鄉的地方去做測試試點那你評估的時候意見收集的時候你可不可以將協助偏鄉金融作為你們的重點評估項目之一會嗎"},{"start":234.653,"end":248.413,"text":"我想委員就是說因為我們從這個時點要到這個時點恐怕還有一段時間的一個路程但是呢委員有提出了這樣的一個事例"},{"start":249.054,"end":249.434,"text":"所以我接下來想要請教一下總裁"},{"start":271.231,"end":289.897,"text":"過去呢像2020年總統就職你們有發行那個就職紀念幣嘛那我不太曉得說今年會發行嗎預計要發行多少這個我委員我請我們的發行局這個是他在組長的我請他來回答好嗎謝謝謝謝委員那今年的總統副總統就職紀念幣"},{"start":299.443,"end":325.959,"text":"總統當選人已經同意實體的紀念幣的實施發行好所以會跟這個一樣是實體紀念幣是是OK那預計發行量我們會採網路預購網路預購來決定他的發行數量是是是OK那相片挑好了嗎現在都已經挑好了是挑好齁因為是金柱嘛齁用金子鑄造齁大家是有反應說長得不像"},{"start":328.529,"end":345.504,"text":"對,你看那個左邊那個可能會有一個最近新聞人物很像那個男的也不像因為我知道金柱他其實可能有他技術的問題啦不容易去很像但是我們還是希望很像因為收藏的人希望很像"},{"start":346.305,"end":351.569,"text":"我只是做這樣的提醒除了實體版有沒有可能來發行數位版的紀念幣因為剛才總裁在回應別的委員的時候都說也承認數位是一個趨勢"},{"start":376.135,"end":380.817,"text":"一句裝洋法15條還有第18條還有我們的金銀幣紀念的這個發行辦法現在我們的國幣還有紀念性的卷跟幣並沒有"},{"start":393.254,"end":415.313,"text":"所以沒有打算發行數位的?沒有 這個法源上面是還有問題既然是趨勢不要講法源就修嘛因為是趨勢為什麼我這樣講因為很多人關心就是能不能夠去結合一些線上遊戲像生存遊戲可以在AR VR呈現虛擬實境等等"},{"start":417.635,"end":437.863,"text":"因為他們覺得其實這個會是一個不錯的一個新的玩意那我想你們可以去考慮看看好不好這是很多人的期待啦那接下來我就是也想了解因為過去在1998到2011年中央銀行都有發售14組的原住民套幣"},{"start":438.863,"end":451.969,"text":"但是後來就沒有而且在這些年當中14組已經變16組甚至未來可能還會有一些平埔族群像希拉雅族所以我是想說能不能夠透過數位再版"},{"start":453.856,"end":477.075,"text":"吳委員的這個建立我覺得非常好因為這個可以結合很多現在的可以來玩我們第一個我們實體版的我們一定也可以發行那至於就是說剛剛你建立的那個數位版之後那我就說數位版當然也不是說因為法沒有那我們假如說這個是一個趨勢也許以後"},{"start":480.237,"end":494.746,"text":"國外阿國際阿他對原住民很有興趣阿例如說CPTC他也要有法源阿什麼的這些呢恐怕就是說都是要以後來設計阿要儘早修啦因為一直講法源就不對了因為是趨勢就要"},{"start":495.646,"end":496.787,"text":"我現在是知道"},{"start":519.146,"end":539.596,"text":"全支付在3月11號有加入那接口支付預計在7月加入可是大家最關心就是使用人口最多的這個LiPay不曉得什麼時候會加入我是不是吳衍儒請我們財經公司的董事長來回答您的問題委員好跟委員報告"},{"start":540.396,"end":558.349,"text":"LiPay在現在的市場上它是第三方支付現在的電子支付跨機構平台呢我們金管會合總我們的服務的範圍是金融機構跟電子機構所以這兩個電子機構跟第三方機構的法源不一樣"},{"start":558.869,"end":584.96,"text":"是是是又是法院吼那我是這樣子想啦因為我也知道有看過你們說是第三方支付的關係可是我的看法是這樣因為在技術層面上吼第三方支付的金流他還是要依賴電子支付跟銀行處理啦那我是覺得技術上你們研究一下應該是可行那另外一方面他的事法性法院法院那支付清算平台吼他也是依電子支付條例來執行可是"},{"start":586.641,"end":612.83,"text":"跟他前端的QR code他其實沒有法去規範所以我覺得這是兩碼子事那應該要去朝向簡便民流通還是要去客服可以嗎是的好謝謝那除了簡便民方便流通我覺得央行也有促進金融穩定的任務我是在夜報上看到你們說本行選擇信信用管制措施實施以來不動產貸款成長率下降確實從2020年起"},{"start":615.091,"end":616.332,"text":"我本來是想要問總裁您知道原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":638.302,"end":665.299,"text":"我就直接講因為時間的關係對啦我就說對對因為去年的第三季的房價增長是趨緩的可是你看第四季喔這個表格你可以看到爆衝欸爆衝例如像新竹他光是三個月內房子就漲15%那你應該很清楚知道我要問什麼因為財政部在2020年他的房地和一稅齁就是期限這個五年他把他給給放寬了"},{"start":667,"end":689.453,"text":"那另外2023年去年財政部8月又推出一個親安貸的2.0也把這個所謂的一個兩年到五年的他也把它放寬所以很多的廠商他就找到一個促銷的門道策略那我是希望說央行因為你有對總體金融穩定的一個責任嘛那是不是可以去做一個評估報告好謝謝總裁謝謝主席"},{"start":696.594,"end":697.001,"text":"休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ceb3bbf79ef2f871d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a682c21a89343fc3a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:35:22 - 10:50:08","影片長度":"00:14:46","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":886,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:50:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:35:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時35分）謝謝主席，我想請邱國正部長以及海委會海巡署周署長。"],["主席：請邱部長及周署長。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。現在大家都很擔心，最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近，不管是會影響到我們的禁止水域，或是像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了，兩岸要不斷去搜救，發生這樣的事情，第一個我想要問的是，最近這樣子的情況越演越烈，請問邱部長，未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化？"],["邱部長國正：會不會變化我們不知道，所以我們要嚴密監控，但我不樂見，平常會有這些監控的動作就是防止它，一旦發生了，我們要趕快處理，至於會不會發生，不見得是我們單方面的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們現在的評估，我問的是你們的評估，現在有沒有一種常態化發生的可能性？我們現在自我的評估。"],["邱部長國正：是這樣子喔！凡事我們做最壞打算，但是打算不見得是看到東西，我們設定很多想定，國軍的作業流程必然要有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["邱部長國正：我們的評估也已經歸納出來，什麼樣的狀況下就保持一個目前它所謂的新常態，什麼樣狀況下它會增加，這個我們大概已經有一個歸納。"],["徐委員巧芯：等一下針對ADIZ的部分，我會再來詢問您。我們先問一下周署長，大家很關心的是先前有三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海，離本島只有6海里，當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了，但是這是不是變成大陸方面掌握了一個方式，來跟你宣示它的主權，甚至它的漁船上有他們自己的國旗，那就是插旗宣示主權，看你能奈我何，你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎？那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，謝謝委員的詢問。第一、我要先回答委員，從最近的數字上來看並沒有增加，陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好，這個數量並沒有增加。"],["徐委員巧芯：數量沒有增加？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果以2、3月跟去年同年的2、3月來比的話，它是減少百分之三十幾。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以還減少？所以你們並不擔心未來禁止水域被超越這件事情會常態化？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們不是不擔心、也沒有不擔心，我們現在都在做全般的準備，平常……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們不是不擔心，但是你們是覺得不會？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有說不會，因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的情形。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我說的是常態化的部分，而不是說它越界。"],["周副主任委員美伍：常態化的部分，剛剛部長已經有回答，我們會去觀察，因為這個常態化不是一天、兩天、一個禮拜、二個禮拜，可能要一個月、兩個月，我們才知道它是不是常態化。"],["徐委員巧芯：但以這個月來說，你認為還減少了，所以你並不認為未來會有常態化的狀況？"],["周副主任委員美伍：越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的，但是在0214事件之後有沒有一個新的型態出來，我們現在正在觀察中。"],["徐委員巧芯：那要問的是，像這樣的狀況，以你們執法跟取締來說，大家在問，為什麼上次沒有取締？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們上次整個三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況，我們都有掌握。同時我們也有派船……"],["徐委員巧芯：有掌握，我們知道啊！有雷達就能夠掌握。"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時我們也有派船，我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸，因為海象已經達到十級，所以它沒有辦法出港，它已經在那個港口、港嘴的外面，但是那天的海象確實不好，所以中部分署長就下令它返航，持續用雷達監控，但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦、3,000噸的大船在那邊，我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控，所以宜蘭艦同時……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來發生類似狀況的時候，我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，depends，要看所有的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：不一定？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：由你們來決定？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不同的水域、不同的狀況以及不同的海象，我再跟委員做一個背景說明。當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的是八到十級……"],["徐委員巧芯：有，我們剛剛都聽到了，這您已經講了很多天。"],["周副主任委員美伍：過去有這種現象，尤其是在我們周遭水域，陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪，它會有避風的作為，像七美海域在這種東北季風盛行的時候，超過八級以上，它就會向七美靠攏，我們的船跟雷達都會監控，如果這個海象一轉好之後，這些船……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然會監控，不監控還得了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果這些船在海象一轉好之後，它就離開，我們就認知它是一個尋常的避風作為。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果說在避風之後，海象已經轉移三到五級、七級的時候，當然我們的巡邏艇立刻會開過去驅離。"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解，這些您剛剛都講過了，我們都有聽到。先謝謝署長，署長先請回。","我們要問一下邱部長，為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情，過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線，我們來給大家看一下這個圖，好不好？這個部分是近年來共機逾越海峽中線的次數統計，我們沒有公布架次也是希望能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料，但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說，從2022年8月，時任美國眾議院議長裴洛西訪臺之後是不斷地往上飆升的，甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關固定的統計紀錄，所以他們超越ADIZ海峽中線這個部分變成是常態化，但是我們可以看到過去2019年的時候，有一次2019年4月，對方蓄意越過海峽中線，請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎？2019年4月的時候，蔡總統有講話的。"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，您好，我是情次室次長，當然在2008、2009都有，2010跟2012年是沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是這一次。"],["顏次長有賢：這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線，它是有短暫逾越的情況下。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["顏次長有賢：在當下的情況不是常態，一般據我們統計那5年的情況，架次很少，那時候也到委員辦公室跟主任提過，這些都是非計畫性，因為天氣、因為避讓……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們時間很有限啦！我的問題是說當下我們做的具體的狀況是什麼？你就直接回答這個部分，好不好？就問題回答。"],["顏次長有賢：當下的情況除了我們防空雷達……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有強勢驅離嘛？"],["顏次長有賢：那個是在空機去對應的……"],["徐委員巧芯：當時這個2019年4月有沒有強勢驅離？"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，強制驅離的方式有很多種。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的就是有沒有嘛！因為蔡總統臉書發說有啊！所以我就問你嘛！"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，一定有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有嘛！當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書，她內容怎麼寫的？她寫說：「我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離，因為臺海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石」，這是蔡英文總統臉書寫的內容，可是我們回到前面，2019年4月之後一陣子平息了一下，但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷、不斷地在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分，到底有什麼樣具體的型態我們可以去做到、去保護所謂我們的海峽中線？而不是2019年第一次來的時候，也不是第一次來，當時比較少來的時候，我們強勢驅離，寫了一個臉書告訴大家，我們會守護海峽中線，但請問到現在呢？我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣？還是他們來很多次之後，我們就比較習慣了，不能習慣這件事吧？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，國軍戰備應處沒有看哪個階段的，偶發事件就有偶發事件的處理方法，但平常我們一定嚴密監控。現在這個數量，當然我也有跟同仁講了，委員要知道的話，可以到委員那邊去講得很清楚……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們都瞭解。"],["邱部長國正：基本上來講，現在架次都是保持一個概略的數量，但有偶發這種狀況，比如說不管是有國外的友臺言論或有外賓來訪，它會利用這個時候做一個聯合的所謂戰備警巡，數量會增加。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況。"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是從2022年開始就變得非常地頻繁，我們是在詢問說這樣一個常態化之後，我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為？"],["邱部長國正：我們的因應作為，一樣，因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架，不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞；第二個，我們也看到它的常態，就是在某個範圍以內，它就是在那邊有點告警的味道，所以我們除嚴密監控以外，還有其他很多手段，譬如說要接近了，該要喊話，在空機去面對或者有臨時起來的，甚至於飛彈部隊也是個管道，但怎麼處理我們不便多做論述。SOP以外，剛才有委員講ROE是我們現在正要深入的，因為很多都是突發的狀況，但我們絕對不會硬碰硬，而且要避免戰爭引起，我們不要被人家落了一個師出有名的藉口。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，當然我是非常認同，但我另外想要請問邱部長一個事情，就是前幾天您在備詢的時候，被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義，你最後說只要言論有利中共的、不利我方的都算是在地協力者。請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述？"],["邱部長國正：我那天講得很清楚，任何一個言論只要利於其他方面、不利我方的，我們就初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者是協力者，這是個人的認定。就像哪一個團體，幫他喊的拉拉隊就一定是他的支持者，但他以後逾越法律，我也特別後面有講，這個要檢調單位他們來處理，這不是我的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，部長，當您講說對我不利、對他有利的，你就初步認定為是在地協力者，您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波。因為有些事情它不見得違法，但它對個人的社會形象是有影響的。如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對你不利、對他有利，你就說你初步認定他是在地協力者，那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢？"],["邱部長國正：風波？哪一樣事情？"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有做任何查證的情況，能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我並沒有指控他，而是那天有委員問到……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說初步就認為……"],["邱部長國正：什麼叫在地協力者？因為我們的報告上有這句話。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["邱部長國正：那我引用這個話也是大家平常都在用的啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：您可不可以再清楚講一次，你認為什麼樣的一個狀態，算是你所認為的在地協力者？"],["邱部長國正：基本上他有發表不利於我方言論，或利用造謠，甚至在那邊鼓吹不利我方，我就認為他是沒有善意的，至於他站哪邊、幫哪一個、幫誰，那檢調單位去確認。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是他說的在地協力者，是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者欸！"],["邱部長國正：對，那就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果變成說，任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利、對他有利，就是中共在地協力者……"],["邱部長國正：不是的，委員剛才不是已經講了……"],["徐委員巧芯：他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛才不是已經講了，對中共有利對中共嘛！我們目標就是中共，對中共有利，那對哪個團體有利、不利，我沒有去界定欸！"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，最近前一陣子他們在講，金廈海域事件，關心金廈海域事件、認為海巡署有責任的，都屬於中共在地協力者……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這樣講喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：您認同嗎？我問的是您認同嗎？"],["邱部長國正：海巡署在處理了，它已經依照法的程序在走，我沒有任何辯論……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以……"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有任何評論欸！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以部長，以剛剛這樣的狀態來說，你會認定關注海巡署是否有疏失的人，叫做中共在地協力者嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒這樣講喔，我也沒有這樣認為喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有這樣，你沒有這樣認為……"],["邱部長國正：委員，你不要就講到法律，抓那句話……"],["徐委員巧芯：不、不、不，我不是說您，不、不、不，您聽我說……"],["邱部長國正：你不要抓那句話就無限擴大……"],["徐委員巧芯：您聽我說、您聽我說，不要緊張，好嗎！"],["邱部長國正：我沒緊張，我有什麼好緊張的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，您剛說的，如果這不算的話，但是當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了，包含在我們委員會裡面他都說了，質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在地協力者。"],["邱部長國正：那是他說啊，我沒有說啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利、對對方有利的都算，您說對的時候，就變成是大家會去解讀，好像現在所有的言論只要講到政府哪裡不對的，就可以扣上一個中共在地協力者的帽子。"],["邱部長國正：這個是一個自由民主的社會，大家各自表述，我們都不會予以置喙。但委員問到我怎麼樣對在地協力者的界定，我們報紙上引用的我就把它引用出來，但我個人看法就是只要對他，尤其對敵方有利、對我不利，我就認為他是在地協力者，但有沒有違法，我沒有去做判斷啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：未來如果你們會去制定相關的罰則，有這樣子的……"],["邱部長國正：我不會做那個罰則，因為我沒有依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：不會，……你不會做這樣子的罰則……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：不會立一個法律說，只要認定是中共的協力者，我就要對你處罰，不會做這樣的一個修法方向？"],["邱部長國正：國防部有什麼權力來制定一個法律，做一個界定，然後怎麼樣來執法？沒有這個界定。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們不會這麼做嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，接下來請王定宇召委上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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end":10.115,"text":"謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長"},{"start":17.904,"end":46.081,"text":"徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化"},{"start":46.954,"end":51.599,"text":"那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估"},{"start":68.956,"end":72.157,"text":"等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長"},{"start":94.821,"end":120.158,"text":"就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的"},{"start":120.598,"end":129.61,"text":"那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼"},{"start":130.793,"end":153.769,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的"},{"start":154.189,"end":175.286,"text":"所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它"},{"start":177.188,"end":203.518,"text":"常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在"},{"start":205.579,"end":225.602,"text":"動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握"},{"start":228.523,"end":254.373,"text":"同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦"},{"start":256.014,"end":282.534,"text":"三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的"},{"start":285.136,"end":305.473,"text":"是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控"},{"start":306.954,"end":312.157,"text":"如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長"},{"start":336.653,"end":359.551,"text":"就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料"},{"start":360.211,"end":385.052,"text":"但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔"},{"start":386.738,"end":397.883,"text":"可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的"},{"start":407.486,"end":419.259,"text":"我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下"},{"start":420.64,"end":421.02,"text":"你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?"},{"start":449.509,"end":450.71,"text":"當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的"},{"start":472.403,"end":489.089,"text":"他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面"},{"start":494.752,"end":512.33,"text":"2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線"},{"start":513.191,"end":530.871,"text":"而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較"},{"start":532.52,"end":533.341,"text":"習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?"},{"start":549.491,"end":566.009,"text":"但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊"},{"start":567.09,"end":582.944,"text":"是 可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":583.444,"end":608.425,"text":"我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於"},{"start":609.932,"end":611.793,"text":"當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情"},{"start":639.6,"end":665.126,"text":"就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者"},{"start":665.566,"end":666.406,"text":"但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者"},{"start":685.413,"end":711.161,"text":"您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為"},{"start":714.462,"end":717.383,"text":"你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?"},{"start":730.367,"end":744.605,"text":"我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認"},{"start":747.168,"end":768.674,"text":"可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶"},{"start":769.434,"end":779.704,"text":"那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論"},{"start":788.453,"end":798.862,"text":"以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢"},{"start":808.149,"end":832.899,"text":"您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的"},{"start":836.502,"end":857.922,"text":"這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法"},{"start":858.522,"end":859.242,"text":"所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149868","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149868","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313550f02b408562ebe6836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a68f6a9c70dc4894db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:36:43 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10:47:41","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":658,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:47:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:36:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時36分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：陳委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安，我從去年遞補上任，大概在10月18號就跟主委請教過關於兒少自殺的死因回溯，尤其是衛福部其實已經有6歲以下，可是6歲到18歲的相關自殺研究，我們之前跟主委辦公室討論的時候，主委表示您也非常關心……"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且主委您也承諾說這確實是一個重要的事情，我這邊要說我們非常感謝國科會，確實在後續有召開非常多跨部會的會議，到最近而且在4個月當中有4次的諮詢會議，資料我們都收到了，我要先謝謝主委，但是後續看到國科會給我們的回應就如同這個簡報上說的，國科會的回應告訴我們說，已經有一些相關的研究在進行，可是最後卻給了一個結論，我唸給主委聽，說後續要規劃專案推動「新世代青少年數位行為與價值觀研究」，原因他說目前政府各個部會已經有相關自殺防治資源與方案投入，所以後續要盤點現有學術研究成果進行政策轉譯，運用生成式AI分析新世代之行為與價值觀。主委聽到這邊有沒有覺得怪怪的？你一定知道我要問什麼。"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：意思就是我們問的是青少年自殺死因的回溯調查，可是最後跳出來給我們的結論是說要規劃專案推動新世代青少年數位……我先說新世代青少年數位行為與價值觀研究確實重要，但是它跟青少年死因回溯調查之間的關係到底是什麼？因為我剛剛一再說，我們非常感謝主委在之前的質詢，或是後續辦公室的會議對這個主題的重視，而且國科會也願意拿出資源，但是我們看到這個報告其實有點擔心，會不會主委您的幕僚誤會了您的想像跟研究的方向，於是作出這個回應給我們？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該不會。"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員，我先說明一下，可能這個論述裡面有個跳躍……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，非常跳躍，您發現了！"],["蘇處長碩斌：就是我們在召開第一次專家會議的時候，其實有委員提到一件事，我覺得相當重要，也就是說其實今天為什麼自殺率會從0.5跳到0.6，其實20%相當地高，原因是因為我們其實知道這些自殺型態不是傳統的自殺型態，這是專業給我們的建議，所以他們提供一個意見就是說，應該全面性地來理解現在的這個世代，我們叫α世代的青少年，他的價值觀的變化在哪裡，以至於我們可能沒有辦法用傳統的方式來預測他的自殺率，所以我們才會想要綜合衛福部已經既有的研究……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有教育部的，對嗎？"],["蘇處長碩斌：教育部的研究，我們用後設的方式把它們的資料做一個分析，然後我們另外重啟一個價值觀的研究，這個是我們想要兩方面結合的一個目的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這樣您的說明我覺得就相當清楚了，聽起來好像也有點合理，但是後續我們還是要說，因為在你們的報告，就是誠如剛剛主委的幕僚所說明的，在這個報告裡面確實非常跳躍，所以後續是不是也可以補相關資料給我們辦公室？因為我們會持續追蹤，如果由國科會來發起這個研究，除了可以解除跨部會的限制之外，也可以讓更多相關領域的老師跟專家學者願意回到這個角度來探討相關的研究，所以那個跳躍的部分就麻煩後續再補上，我們也會持續追蹤。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：還有剛剛您說的要盤點現有的學術研究之於開啟這個新專案的相關關係，我們後續再討論，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分也謝謝主委喔。","我們來看第二個部分，第二個部分就是之前跟主委討論過的科普活動，但是我們今天要講的是科普不能再只是活動，我們這邊想要先謝謝主委，之前我們提到不管是科普列車我們有做了非常多的調整，或是Kiss Science確實也讓很多國人跟兒少有更多的機會可以更加親近所謂的科研場所，可是我們要說科普政策之於國科會的想像，因為對我們來說，科普不能只是活動，那它可以是什麼？它可以是科學教育，它可以是科學傳播，它也可以是知識轉譯，我相信主委您應該認同，對嗎？在科普的部分。"],["吳主任委員政忠：當然。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們回頭看一下科普政策當時為什麼會有這個依據喔，我們回到科技基本法，在2017年的時候，立法說明裡面有提到科普入法的關鍵是「編列科學技術研究發展預算之研究計畫制定時，應納入科普推廣之考量」，但是我們看到目前國科會所有的科普幾乎都是所謂的活動，回到我們剛剛說的，知識傳播或是知識轉譯的部分呢？科學傳播的部分，它不能再只是活動，對於國科會所辦理的科普活動來說，好像沒有把所謂的知識轉譯跟科學傳播放在活動規劃或者是政策推動的視野當中，這個部分是不是可以請國科會做一個說明？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，我請處長來說明。"],["葉處長至誠：報告委員，我們在推動科普裡面有另外一個範疇是補助學校的教授執行科普計畫，這個科普計畫裡面有很多都是在執行科技轉譯的工作。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分如果如同剛剛您所說的，有補助很多的教授，相關資料我們會在後續跟你們討論。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為如同我們剛剛說的，其實主委真的很在意這個科普的傳播，那我們來看一下，除了剛剛所說的大學教授的部分之外，我們可以看到中研院有一個叫「研之有物」，我相信主委你一定知道，或是民間的科學月刊及很多民間的科普網站，其實他們都在對一般公民做很重要的知識轉譯的示範，我覺得這些事情都必須要放進國科會做科普活動推廣的視野當中。但是如果如同您剛剛說的，它只有在大學教授的研究範圍當中，或是只有在大學教授校內的活動當中，其實離一般公民、離一般兒少其實還是非常遙遠，這個部分國科會有機會再調整跟改進嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該可以，謝謝委員的提醒，事實上這個也滿重要的，事實上我在會內，科普不是只有我們科國處的工作，其他的學術處也都有，像明天我們的物理跟數學就有兩支影片會公布。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以這就是傳播的部分跟轉譯的部分。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我們相信，我這樣一問主委您就可以回答出來，代表國科會應該已經有些事情在進行，但我們希望它可以更積極地曝光，讓更多的公民、更多的兒少或是更多的老師必須取用相關資源的時候是有所本的。所以最後我們要再次強調，也要拜託主委注意，這麼多政策，如果大家看到的都只有活動，那我覺得關鍵是因為我們沒有真的做到循政治理，我覺得科普政策必須要有一些研究的資料來支持，然後進行相關的規劃。我們之前看到國科會給委員會的報告是以活動參與人數及投入預算作為所謂的KPI，可是如果我們一再只有看到這些，我相信後續不會只有我問這個問題，應該所有委員都會知道要離開活動的層面來看科普政策在國科會的支持底下會是什麼樣態，所以這個部分如同剛剛主委跟您的幕僚都已經回覆，我們也希望看到後續國科會在這個部分可以持續地調整，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委。剩下最後2分鐘，接下來我們要談一下，其實我們有看到行政院有傑出科技貢獻獎，2022年的林正洪教授研究臺灣本土主題大屯山，之前也有跟主委討論過；還有許晃雄教授討論到氣候領域，也是跟臺灣有關，叫臺灣地球系統模型的研究，這些都很重要，而且是臺灣重要的本土研究，但確實不容易被注意到，因為大家可能看到是科技類、AI這種很夯的主題，可是我們要再次肯認國科會注意到這些默默付出研究精神、精力及時間的研究人員，我們覺得這個很重要，也希望未來國科會可以持續，這個部分可不可以請主委快速回應一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的肯定，事實上除了行政院傑出科技貢獻獎，我們今年度也在國科會傑出研究獎裡面主動遴選了6位長期默默在臺灣耕耘的教授出來，把他們顯現出來，不是只有發表論文的，我想我們未來會加重這一部分，也就是說，你的科技研究是有針對這塊土地連結的，我想這個也是需要被鼓勵、被拔擢出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為確實如我說的，新聞上不見得看得到嘛，或是一般人不見得會注意到。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們來講另外一個問題，有肯定的，當然就有需要調整的，我們看到國科會頒發傑出研究獎，目前我們知道國科會非常努力在提升女性科研人員，我們看到這個比例到達23%，這是去年的資料，可是如果對照傑出研究獎的得獎性別比例其實還有一些差距，我們可以看到我這邊框起來的是17.5%。我當然知道會因為不同的研究位置，可以投入科研時間長度就會有影響、會有差別，可是我現在框起來這17.5%裡面，其實也包含了人文、社會領域，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：嗯。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以實際上科研領域的女性研究人員獲獎應該會比這更少，主委認為呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好像不一定，處長有沒有要補充？"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們期待國科會在整體提升女性參與跟持續投入科研的工作部分應該可以持續再改善跟討論。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，因為這個……"],["陳委員培瑜：我看到你的幕僚站在後面很想幫主委回答，是不是就讓幕僚來回答一下？"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員，的確人文處是女性的研究人員比例最高的，將近一半，我們在遴選遴選委員的時候其實也都會注意性別的平衡，因此在尊重性別平衡的狀態底下，我們選出來的其實就沒有再特別去做調整。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，但是我們可以看到這個比例，因為我覺得國科會有這個態度很重要，但是我們如果看到這個比例調整，我都覺得當然還是要重視到研究本身的品質啦，是沒有問題的，可是我覺得就性別鼓勵的立場，是不是可以請主委再作出一些回應？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該可以，因為剛剛雖然處長說我們有一些 balance，但是這是過去長期以來的想法，even是女性委員去選也不一定會有這樣的想法，所以我們會來注意。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以今天我們總共跟主委討論了三個題目，一個是關於兒少自殺的死因回溯，第二個是科普不能再只有活動，它必須要以所有的理論支持來作為科普推廣的依據，第三個就是關於女性研究人員必須要被看見，這個部分後續我們辦公室也會再跟國科會持續討論，也謝謝主委，謝謝主席。謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，吳主委請回。"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：接下來有請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.050968750000001,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.29534375,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.42534375,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.442218750000002,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.07596875,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.18971875000001,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.24034375000001,"end":93.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.25721875,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.60284375,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.61971875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.68534375000002,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.93409375000002,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.96784375000001,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.15346875,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.22034375,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.96284375000002,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.09346875,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.12721875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.56596875,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.18596875,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.60784375,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.36409375000002,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.91159375,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.99596875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.11784375000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.58034375000003,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.55784375000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.35471875000002,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.61909375000002,"end":206.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.31846875000002,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.90471875,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.38034375,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.13846875,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.96534375,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.61471875,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.53159375,"end":307.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.40909375,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.91096875,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.78659375,"end":367.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.51784375,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.85284375000003,"end":385.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.00471875000005,"end":384.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.30409375000005,"end":487.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.78909375,"end":387.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.73409375,"end":388.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.17971875,"end":398.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.36846875000003,"end":405.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.33721875000003,"end":470.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.53784375000004,"end":482.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.81971875000005,"end":495.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.36284375,"end":517.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.07659375,"end":522.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.4809687500001,"end":566.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6072187500001,"end":525.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.17346875,"end":546.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.1922187499999,"end":561.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.45284375,"end":568.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.72284375,"end":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Science確實也讓很多國人跟兒少有更加更多的機會親近所謂的科研場所可是我們要說科普政策治癒國科會的想像因為對我們來說科普不能只是活動那它可以是什麼"},{"start":251.06,"end":256.283,"text":"﹗科學教育﹗科學傳播﹗知識轉譯﹗科普政策﹗科普入法的關鍵是﹗編列科學技術研究發展預算的研究計劃﹗制定時必須要納入因納入科普推進"},{"start":280.134,"end":280.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":308.936,"end":326.983,"text":"包括委員我們在推動科普裡面有另外一個範疇是就是補助學校教授執行科普計畫那這個科普計畫裡面有很多都是在執行那個科技轉移的工作那這個部分如果如同剛剛您所說的有補助很多的教授那相關資料我們會在後續跟你們討論因為"},{"start":329.745,"end":346.762,"text":"主委很在意科普的傳播除了大學教授之外我們可以看到中研院有一個叫顏值有誤或是民間的科學月刊還有很多民間的科普網站其實他們都在對一般的公民做很重要的知識轉譯的示範"},{"start":348.964,"end":365.193,"text":"我覺得這些事情都必須要放進國科會做科普活動推廣的視野當中但是如果如同您剛剛說的他只有在大學教授的研究範圍當中或是只有在大學教授校內的活動當中那其實離一般公民離一般兒少其實還是非常遙遠這個部分國科會有機會再調整跟改進嗎"},{"start":367.934,"end":384.024,"text":"應該可以,謝謝委員提醒,事實上這個也蠻重要事實上我在會內科普不是只有我們科國處的工作其他的學術處也都有所以事實上明天我們的物理跟數學有兩支影片會公佈"},{"start":385.265,"end":415.265,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":415.885,"end":444.197,"text":"的資料來支持然後進行相關的規劃所以我們之前看到國科會給委員會的報告是活動參與人數啦投入預算作為所謂的KPI可是如果我們一再只有看到這些我相信後續不會再只有我問這個問題應該所有委員都會知道要離開活動的層面來看科普政策在國科會的支持底下它會是什麼樣態所以這個部分如同剛剛主委跟您的幕僚都已經回復我們也希望看到後續國科會在這個部分可以持續的調整好嗎"},{"start":445.157,"end":446.799,"text":"李政鴻教授 本土主題大屯山"},{"start":460.691,"end":460.851,"text":"﹚林煌雄教授﹚"},{"start":488.762,"end":516.44,"text":"謝謝委員的肯定事實上除了行政院傑出科技貢獻獎我們今年度也在國科傑出研究獎裡面有主動臨選了六位長期默默在臺灣耕耘的教授出來把他們顯現出來不是只有發表論文的我想我們未來會加重這一部分也就是說你的科技研究是有針對這塊土地"},{"start":518.101,"end":524.106,"text":"國科會頒發傑出研究獎目前我們知道國科會非常努力在提升女性科研人員我們看到這個比例到達23%在去年的資料可是如果對照傑出研究獎的得獎性別比例其實還有一些差距"},{"start":546.323,"end":546.443,"text":"主委您認為呢?"},{"start":572.618,"end":587.538,"text":"所以我們在期待國科會是不是在整體提升女性參與跟持續投入科研的工作應該可以持續再改善跟討論那我看你的幕僚在後面很想幫主委回答是不是我們就讓幕僚回答一下"},{"start":588.599,"end":606.196,"text":"報告委員的確人文處這邊是女性的研究人員比例最高的將近一半我們在領選委員的時候其實也都會注意性別的平衡因此在尊重性別平衡的狀態底下我們選出來的其實我們就沒有再特別去做調整"},{"start":607.277,"end":620.952,"text":"但是我們可以看到這個比例因為我覺得國科會有這個態度很重要但是我們如果看到這個比例調整我都覺得當然還是要重視到研究本身的品質是沒有問題的可是我覺得就性別鼓勵的立場是不是可以請主委再做出一些"},{"start":621.513,"end":627.334,"text":"今天我們總統跟主委討論了三個題目一個是關於兒童自殺死因回溯第二個是科普不能再只有活動他必須要所有的理論支持作為科普的推廣的依據"},{"start":645.598,"end":653.487,"text":"第3個就是關於這個女性研究人員必須要被看見這個部分我們後續辦公室也會再跟國科會持續討論那也謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135a1f00d6f1cc9cf2151d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6a26d91266f61260a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:35:49 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中縣長講說你實在太窮有人了 吃命啊 給修理一下 不然他們都不懂要大血汗來跟電話去拜一下嘛 沒有讓委員事先知道 沒有讓縣府知道還有你們最近公安發出事情 我去了解了一下 不是公安事件 是人為事件但是那個聲音太大了 大家以為中共的飛彈打進來了 很緊張啊 你知道這個情形嗎 有有有"},{"start":167.469,"end":189.78,"text":"好 那我希望你中油討論一個端青木林企劃像台電一樣好不好是 我覺得這個中油要去致歉一下是中油你當部長你沒有答應中油哪裡敢答應有有應該要去致歉是是你要講支持還是贊成你這樣講的模擬兩口實在我不幹沒有沒有支持 這個支持好 那剛剛張委員在問到"},{"start":195.68,"end":215.946,"text":"其實全國都很怕戰爭那戰爭發生我們也要面對但是大家都在想以前的報告裡面天然氣說維持大概8到9天那現在我看你們的報告裡面你在天然氣穩定天然氣供應有8項計畫"},{"start":218.683,"end":231.322,"text":"這個八項計畫讓我們了解你蓋了這麼多的屬於穩定天然氣供應的一個方式裡面到底有沒有增加天然氣對台灣的存量"},{"start":232.922,"end":250.367,"text":"存量當然要去增加,包括三街會去增加,台中港也會增加出廠,以及光州港也要增加。 所以說這種是讓國民安心的一個問題,你慢慢的跟我說題目做得那麼大是國安計畫,我說這現在很簡單。"},{"start":252.602,"end":267.818,"text":"我電腦那個監控啊齁衛星幫你監控你多少船進來我都一千二十嘛那麽會安捏一麽會安捏所以這個沒有好隱瞞的如果確實有增進投資那麼大"},{"start":268.559,"end":292.938,"text":"你就跟我 我們已經在改進 我們在進行你們這樣跟不跟我說 又有這樣的問題我覺得讓我們民眾的懷疑心會越來越大我們要委員支持 我們要增加這個出場好啦 你講委員支持 我都支持但是你要實際的詳細跟我講不要躲躲閃閃的讓我們不放心 不安心啦晚上不能好好睡覺好不好再來"},{"start":297.697,"end":324.084,"text":"我替中油覺得委屈臺電跟中油都是非常好的公司尤其人才激起以前都是經營分子才進去沒有去留學留在這邊打拼了我覺得部長你對臺電比較好你們有一個次長當董事長這邊沒有次長當董事長你曉得他這四年虧損多少中油我賺給你聽"},{"start":326.175,"end":334.677,"text":"如果到7年度一共虧損了2505億台電6000億他這2550億那個董事長你們資本額多少報告委員1301億你的虧損超過你資本額了啊"},{"start":348.888,"end":355.688,"text":"吼 我不知所以你的委屈我跟你講剛剛政府委員說你的利息那麼高你真的高"},{"start":356.704,"end":383.771,"text":"但是你比較乖你怎麼比較實在因為要有一個中油的當處長才來你才能平衡因為你無擔保債你今年打算花錢到3000億你不敢要國庫補貼也不敢講虧10年多啊你就已經虧到一個資本額了啊那個公司也厲害銀行敢借錢給你可見你經營得不錯人家敢借錢"},{"start":385.257,"end":389.488,"text":"當然是防止物價的波動但需要保證啊"},{"start":390.776,"end":419.259,"text":"他真的很老實阿很忠厚、很實在、很努力、很經營的人你這樣不照顧,你自己照顧台電他有將近3000億的,你也給他貶一下好不好是,謝謝委員齁那台電、中油都是我們經濟部最重要的兩家國營事業我們當然都要去照顧沒有照顧,看起來你愛台電不愛中油沒有沒有沒有,這個都一定要照顧台電有Power,中油是只有加油阿"},{"start":421.189,"end":449.842,"text":"對不對沒有中油好我問你一個問題你們報章雜誌在講你希望中油的時候賣給台電我不曉得預防你要減少一元一塊錢等於中油購買你台電購買中油價格大概你每年營業的收入會省吃到"},{"start":451.893,"end":457.094,"text":"我們就是知道中油也是有吸收非常多的成本所以中油賣給台電的價格已經比他的這個成本價要高一點"},{"start":479.662,"end":503.633,"text":"我是入監不評阿 但是因為這個是看國際的這個天然氣的有沒有降低 我每次聽你說國際的天然氣啦有說要是命阿但是不能求不中油這樣啦 不會 不會 因為靠照台電啦好不好 謝謝委員支持 是 不是我支持 你要支持才重要 有有有 我支持講得很不一定聽阿 我們支持中油 中油台電都非常重要 都一樣重要 是"}]}},{"id":"149866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135fa12e4ea0a29b8d23bab39d7bda6ec6df8ba9b0039caa7a6e00fe85888996f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:24:55 - 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因為時間的關係所以我接下來會講得非常的快第二個重要的科技偵查的必要性我相信第一線辦案的檢警大家心裡都非常有感但是當這件事情是檢警他們辦案所需要的時候但我們就因為沒有法律的授權使得"},{"start":395.567,"end":409.613,"text":"這一個偵辦犯罪的必要手段竟然可以讓第一線的檢體自己誤觸法網甚至所收集到的證據在法庭上被認為沒有證據能力到最後白忙一場現在最關鍵的問題就是說"},{"start":411.873,"end":436.303,"text":"針對有關於這些科技偵查所得證據的證據能力我們到底是要回到刑事訴訟法裡面做一般性的規定還是在科技偵查法裡面做一個特別法的規定那我個人是絕對反對只把這些科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面因為你如果把科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面會形成一個非常荒謬的狀況"},{"start":438.675,"end":452.984,"text":"偵辦電信詐欺的時候可以用GPS可以用M化車可以用各式各樣科技偵查手段但是辦國安案件的時候就不行了辦組織犯罪的時候就不行了辦毒品案件的時候就不行了所以我"},{"start":454.594,"end":482.9,"text":"對於詐欺專法有沒有制定的必要性大家可以討論但是科技偵查的手段這件事情在符合正當法律程序必要的時候採取法官保留原則之下我認為應該要有一個具有比較普遍性通則適用性的規範方式放在刑事訴訟法還是要立一個特別法立法的形式我們大家通通都可以討論最後一個主席最後只用30秒就好了就是讓"},{"start":484.298,"end":508.229,"text":"第一線的警察也好調查員也好大家都覺得非常痛苦的事情他們投入大量的資源投入了大量的資源好不容易破獲了好不容易抓到人了他詐欺的對象也很多他所造成的時害也很高但是到最後法院端的時候輕輕的判完刑就放人了"},{"start":511.943,"end":538.63,"text":"那這個是在台版柬埔寨裡面的首腦藍道當他被抓的時候我就看他似乎不像是出犯我把過去的判決系統全部調完了以後發現31個加重詐欺罪你如果看法定本刑刑法339條之一他犯了31個結果最後的結論我們用非法律人的角度來講叫做不用坐牢"},{"start":540.007,"end":563.325,"text":"當非法律人來問法律人的時候為什麼這樣可以不用坐牢我們要非常耗費唇舌的去解釋第一個先想像淨核他是以組織犯罪來加重詐欺組織犯罪的罪名被想像淨核掉了所以我們只用加重詐欺加重詐欺是一年以上7年以下那但是法官認為他嫌可免訴所以判6個月"},{"start":564.446,"end":584.694,"text":"那一個詐欺判6個月11個詐欺宣告刑事6年6個月結果我們還有一個訴罪併罰的制度一個訴罪併罰以後馬上急遽縮減成剩10個月最後10個月還可以一服牢獄那些非法律人聽完法律人解釋完了以後即使他"},{"start":586.431,"end":595.694,"text":"理解原來你們是這樣子玩的玩到最後出來的結果我必須要老實的講違反人民一般的發感情"},{"start":596.721,"end":617.24,"text":"他是31個架動詐欺罪前面的一個10個月孕婦勞役後面的那個更誇張啊宣告刑已經21年了最後法官給他兩年還什麼喚醒31個架動詐欺罪在我國的法律系統當中最後的結論是一天的勞都不用做"},{"start":620.882,"end":648.201,"text":"今天我們對於刑法知道他有最後手段性最後他有殘酷性所有上過大一刑法的法律學生都知道但我們回到他本身的制度功能不管你採取的是硬暴論一般預防特別預防我們必須要非常謙卑的反省法律人必須要非常謙卑的反省包括我個人在裡面這樣的結果到底達到了什麼樣子的功能"},{"start":649.537,"end":649.557,"text":"黃國昌"}]}},{"id":"149865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313559e446cc9cc215c99acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6005dafe6a1b373055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:28:02 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10:38:51","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":649,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:38:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:28:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時28分）謝謝主席。我請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁好。在你們的報告裡面，特別對通膨率，提到預估今年臺灣的通膨率可望回降到2%左右。總裁，這個比例是不是估計得過於保守？"],["楊總裁金龍：2%「左右」，這個就是因為我們還是沒有把電價放進去。"],["王委員鴻薇：並沒有把電價放上去，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那麼事實上國發會龔主委已經對外宣稱，我想這是他們的模型跑出來的，他說如果電價上漲10%，那麼對於CPI的影響是0.2%到0.3%，他當然是說間接影響。這個是國發會的模型，我知道中央銀行也有自己的模型在跑，我相信央行一定也在跑，如果台電要調10%，因為現在傳出來是10%到15%，但是看它能夠獲得多少的撥補，如果是10%到15%，那麼我們所跑出來的模型，CPI受到的影響大概是幾個百分點？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上模型大概是大家都差不多，我們的模型也……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以您同意……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有兩個，一個是直接影響，一個是間接影響，在直接影響方面，我們的估計大概也會落在0.12%，這是直接影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：直接？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，直接是0.12%。但是報告委員，如果4月開始調漲的時候，0.12%也不見得就是全部是在今年實現。"],["王委員鴻薇：對！可能會延續到後面……"],["楊總裁金龍：因為今年就只有8個月而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：後年就是4個月，所以0.12%不見得全部是在這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果是間接的話，你們算出來是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：間接的話，我們大概差不多也是在0.24%左右。"],["王委員鴻薇：0.24%？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。也一樣的，0.24%也是一樣要8個月，還有後面的狀況，但這個只是模型跑出來的一個數據，中間還要考慮到預期的心理……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，因為現在確實有一些預期的心理。"],["楊總裁金龍：那預期的心理就不容易去捕捉它。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果預期心理出來，甚至有哄抬物價出來，影響的層面會更大。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！所以我們也必須要考慮這些。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，所以總裁應該也會同意，因為這次電價上漲的幅度比過去幾年都大，而且甚至這次要漲到民生用電，所以在今年有關於通貨膨脹的壓力，事實上這個壓力是很大的，你應該同意吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我剛剛也有提到這一點，今年雖然比去年的2.49%，我們說可能是上修，但我們認為它還是下來的，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你這樣用下降的手勢，並不代表現在大家的物價下降，其實是去年的基期比較高，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！對，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：你同意嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：基期也是一部分，但是我要跟委員報告的，因為我們2022年、2021年，從1.97%，過來是2.95%，過來是2.49%，今年又超過2%，我們必須要小心，如果通膨是那麼長的時間，中央銀行對於通膨預期的心理我們要非常注意。"],["王委員鴻薇：就會擔心，等於長時間都是在我們的通貨膨脹線2%上上下下，一直維持這個水準，所以中央銀行應該會非常非常的在意，因為穩定物價就是央行的天條嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總裁，我們大概上半年看不到降息的可能了，你們因為電價的不確定因素，會不會引起預期心理、會不會引起哄抬物價？所以今年雖然美國一直在期待Fed可能降息，但是現在它可能降息的時間也會往後延，在今年上半年，總裁認為我們有沒有降息的空間？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我在想我們在6月以前沒有降息的空間。"],["王委員鴻薇：那下半年呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個對於通膨預期的心理我們必須要注意，而下半年，我跟委員報告，美國是通膨率8%、9%，然後慢慢下來的，基本上我們的通膨是稍微上升，然後再下來，對不對？"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的情況是跟他們不一樣，所以我們的貨幣政策跟他們完全是不一樣的，我們是慢慢地上去，所以慢慢上去也可能不會就像他們一樣，上去了以後下來的速度比較快，而我們是逐步的，所以……"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁，我可不可以這樣講，以今年的國際情勢來說，美國有降息的可能，今年也可能看得到降息，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！有可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是今年上半年，臺灣因為面臨到電價上漲的壓力，所以上半年央行現在沒有降息的打算，但是按照國際情勢，我們也沒有升息的可能，可以這樣講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：在下個禮拜四我們會嚴肅地討論這個問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以會不會升息，你不敢講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不敢講。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們現在的變數太多？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，瞭解。總裁，另外跟您請教，這幾天其實媒體有報導，你們的報告裡面也有特別提到，就是中央銀行目前在進行數位貨幣（CBDC）的研究，我所瞭解你們現在是委託台經院嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含對一些銀行的詢問及調查，銀行應該是比較持負面跟反對的意見，是不是？因為如果發行這個數位貨幣，銀行可能會怕自己的金融仲介地位因此而被邊緣化，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在所瞭解的是，因為這邊提到你去對公眾、產業界、學界，我跟你講公眾是不懂的啦！我都要花一點時間，我叫人家幫我弄了一份報告出來，我才比較瞭解數位貨幣你們的架構是什麼，所以現在你隨便到路上問一個人，他真的會不知道什麼叫CBDC、什麼叫數位貨幣，他還以為是虛擬貨幣。現在司法委員會在講反詐，我對虛擬貨幣一直變成詐騙、洗錢的方式，我是很有意見的，但是它不是虛擬貨幣，所以我們現在在研究數位貨幣的發展，您覺得有可能跟有些國家準備在2030年之前開始上路、發行數位貨幣，我們的時間有可能可以趕得上2030年嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個timetable我不太敢跟委員保證，因為我們的第一個階段，譬如說我們要訪問，還要再開公聽會、論壇，所花的時間可能也會滿長的，而且你看看像美國，我剛剛也提到了，美國Fed的主席Powell最近也談到了，美國如果要發展CBDC，他要非常小心。"],["王委員鴻薇：要非常小心。"],["楊總裁金龍：而且他很重視的就是它的隱私權，因為人民使用CBDC的時候，使用貨幣的隱私權可能中央銀行都會知道，銀行也可能都會知道，他一直覺得除非上面……"],["王委員鴻薇：這我還不曉得。所以如果發行CBDC的話，任何一個個人也好，當然像大戶或者是企業界在使用數位貨幣跟銀行之間的往來，中央銀行都可以完全掌握，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這個就是你的設計，也就是你要……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們是朝這個方向設計嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，所以這個設計就必須要在某一個範圍之內大概不曉得，但是在某一個範圍的時候，可能這些資訊都要揭露、都要讓上面知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是要揭露？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是要，不是所謂的揭露，就是要讓中央銀行知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我現在知道銀行界並沒有那麼贊成，如果這樣講起來，我覺得企業界或者是那種金融大戶，我看他們也不會那麼贊成，對不對？但是可以完全掌握洗錢的狀況，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，我跟委員報告，E-Commerce就是E化的商業、E化的經濟，E化的經濟方向恐怕就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：勢在必行。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，可能就是勢在必行，可能是eMoney。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們現在開始研究，但是會非常謹慎，當然還是會牽涉到一些修法。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！我們會非常小心，我們不急。"],["王委員鴻薇：不急？所以沒有時間表，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有時間表。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：現場有伍麗華委員，因為趕時間喔，我們是不是徵詢他，讓他先質詢，好不好？等伍委員質詢完，我們再休息5分鐘。","好，謝謝。請伍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.90846875,"end":3.9290937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.620968749999999,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.602843750000002,"end":12.872843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.67846875,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.218468750000003,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":20.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.70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9%然後慢慢下來的那我們的基本上呢我們的通膨是稍微這樣然後再下來對不對我們情況是跟他不一樣所以我們的貨幣政策跟他完全是不一樣的我們呢是慢慢的上去的所以慢慢上去的話呢也可能就是說不會就像他們就是說上去了以後下來的速度比較快"},{"start":346.562,"end":374.042,"text":"那中央銀行的把我們是逐步的我們是逐步的所以呢總裁我可不可以這樣講因為今年在國際情勢來說的話美國有降息的可能今年也可能看得到降息對不對那但是呢今年上半年臺灣面臨到電價上漲的壓力所以上半年央行現在沒有降息的打算但是按照國際情勢我們也沒有升息的可能"},{"start":374.462,"end":374.862,"text":"總裁另外跟您請教這幾天其實媒體有報導你們的那個"},{"start":398.369,"end":422.44,"text":"這個報告裡面有特別提到就是中央銀行現在呢在進行數位貨幣的一個研究CBDC我所瞭解你們現在是委託台金院嗎?包含對一些銀行的詢問嗎?對銀行的一個調查銀行應該是比較持負面跟反對的意見吧?"},{"start":423.519,"end":426.861,"text":"是不是因為看起來因為如果發行這個數位貨幣"},{"start":454.44,"end":456.042,"text":"我對虛擬貨幣一直變成詐騙洗錢我是很有意見但是它不是虛擬貨幣所以"},{"start":473.584,"end":491.162,"text":"我們現在在研究數位貨幣的一個發展您覺得有可能跟有些國家準備在2030年之前開始來上路發行數位貨幣我們的時間有可能可以趕得上2030年嗎"},{"start":493.247,"end":521.784,"text":"我這個timetable我不大敢跟委員保證了因為這個我們第一個階段譬如說我們這個我們在訪問我們還要在公聽會我們還要在論壇這些首發的時間可能也會蠻長的而且你看看像美國我剛剛也提到美國這個Fed的主席Power他最近也談到了美國如果要發展這個CPTC他要非常小心"},{"start":522.384,"end":549.665,"text":"而且呢他很重視的就是說他的隱私權就人民因為你用CBDC的時候呢那這個呢你的你使用貨幣的這個隱私權呢可能中央銀行都會知道銀行也可能會都會知道那這個呢他一直覺得就是說除非除非就是說上面所以這我還會想所以如果發行CBDC的話"},{"start":550.285,"end":566.102,"text":"任何一個個人也好當然是大戶啦大戶或者是企業界他在使用數位貨幣跟銀行之間的話中央銀行都可以完全掌握所以這個就是說你的設計也就是說你要我們是朝這個方向設計嗎對不是不會"},{"start":568.164,"end":587.796,"text":"我所以這個設計就必須要知道就是說在某一個範圍之內的話大概就不曉得但是在某一個範圍的時候可能你這些資訊都要揭露都要讓上面知道還是要揭露還是不是所謂的揭露就是說要讓中央銀行知道"},{"start":588.995,"end":604.234,"text":"所以我覺得這個當你們對銀行界並沒有那麼贊成如果這樣講起來我覺得企業界或者是那種金融大戶我看他們也不會那麼贊成博鴻報告委員博鴻報告委員我跟您報告"},{"start":608.479,"end":629.37,"text":"e-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commercee-commerce"},{"start":642.384,"end":647.638,"text":"現場有武力華委員齁那因為趕時間齁我們就徵詢他讓他先質詢好不好"}]}},{"id":"149864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313550cad78b048966ee836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a62aeb4f393fa6d6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:26:14 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Excellence，把國內的一些專家集合起來，未來也不排除有一個比較固定的單位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，您知不知道中醫藥的一個振興計畫，針對該計畫國科會幫忙多少？"],["吳主任委員政忠：中醫藥，這個處長應該知道。"],["楊處長台鴻：國科會對中醫藥發展一直是投入很多的，我們平均一年大概有補助七十幾件中醫藥學門計畫，平均大概每一件計畫有一百二十多萬臺幣。現在也有規劃一些中醫藥實證計畫，大概有兩支，一支大概是250萬，1年是500萬，未來114年應該還會有一個中綱計畫為期4年的，也是要做中醫藥的實證計畫，以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，因為您的聲音稍微小聲一點，待會再稍微大聲一點就好，我有盡力在聽啦！"],["楊處長台鴻：不好意思。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想在近幾十年來，人工智慧AI在中醫學領域上，基礎應用已經匯集一個成果，包括AI診療、AI醫學影像，還有AI藥物研究、AI健康管理。我想在傳統中，中醫都有四診──望、聞、問、切的理論之下，逐步結合人工智慧的醫學影像，電腦診斷發展舌診儀、聞診儀，以及脈診儀，建立更精準的標準化數位診斷依據，以作為推動中醫精準醫療的基石。主委，針對這個AI的診療醫學影像、藥物研究、健康管理，目前的辦理狀況？"],["吳主任委員政忠：生成式人工智慧出來還不到一年，差不多一年，的確那個方向是正確，因為中醫的那些數據脈動，如果有人工智慧大資料庫來幫忙，應該是會有蠻大的進展。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想這個當然是我們非常關切的一個議題。","再來，臺灣市售的中藥材大部分仰賴進口，品質常因為來源不同而有極大的差異，國科會有沒有辦法導入數位科技，協助中藥材品質管理？"],["吳主任委員政忠：國科會還是要仰賴各個大學的教授來幫忙，這個剛剛我們處長已經說過，我們相關的計畫都有，這個方向應該是比較細一點，但是我們可以再注意一下。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，是比較細，但是不少國家都開發DNA的方法來作為藥材鑑別的技術，所以我們當然希望說有這個機會可以建議，那也希望國科會能夠就這個方面未來朝這方向瞭解。"],["吳主任委員政忠：OK。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們可以納入，請生科處納入。"],["楊處長台鴻：沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以、可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝您。"],["吳主任委員政忠：資料會後再給我們參考。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們再一起瞭解一下。","主委，你應該有聽過清冠1號吧？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你有吃過嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我到現在還沒有得過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：真的喔！天選之人。"],["吳主任委員政忠：但是我記得我在二年前去聖地牙哥開US BIO……很多臺灣的這個人……都買不到。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上我把我們的送給他，他就很高興。"],["羅委員廷瑋：很多人跟我們要，我自己也吃過清冠1號，它是衛福部自行研發的中藥，國科會身為國內科技研發的重要部會，也負責跨部會的協調，請問清冠1號有沒有其他的計畫？"],["楊處長台鴻：我們國科會在114年會推一個中綱計畫，叫作中醫藥的實證醫學，我要特別強調「實證」二個字，就是說中醫藥歷史很久，在臨床上有些可能大家有經驗，但沒有實證的臨床資料，所以我們會做這個事情，我相信在未來應該不只清冠1號，應該有很多學者會把他的祕方、配方，通通拿出來申請這個實證醫學的計畫，以上，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，因為我也蠻關心臺版的ChatGPT，那其實我剛也談到人腦與AI的所謂人機介面，那我看到其實整個國科會裡面能夠帶領未來整個人機介面，或者是生成式AI來做整合規劃，我覺得就像我剛剛在問您，如果未來您有辦法結合一些民間的企業，大家一起來整合這相關的資源，因為我剛剛有提到台積電、輝達都是我們非常知名的一個廠牌，如果能夠整合成由國家帶領的一個國家隊，您做隊長，整合這些民間企業成為一個法人，有沒有機會？我還是想問一下。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個我倒沒有想過那麼大的，但是我們這一次TAIDE對話引擎，事實上，臺灣幾乎所有的業界，我們都找來一起跟學界在幫忙。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以主委您不覺得這些業界其實蠻願意付出……"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對國家有一份熱衷，大家願意來，那是不是可以趁這一次的因緣際會下，大家有一次合作，未來結合成法人，然後有更多、更多的合作，我想臺灣如果由您的帶領之下，又還有這些廠商一起來協助的話，成為這個法人，我想可以創造其他的機會，更多的科技來造福國人，這個部分您可以嘗試成立法人看看嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：沒錯，臺灣必須要合作，事實上，晶創臺灣方案裡面的IC design跟人工智慧，國內的廠商，因為臺灣的半導體是從IC設計、製造到封裝測試，我們目前正在努力把臺灣廠商集結在一起，包括學研界，這個不一定是要我，但是這個方向應該是會持續推動。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個方向是對的嗎？您可以認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該是對的，未來的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然成功不必在你，您客氣啦！但是我是說如果國科會能夠作為一個領頭，然後帶領這些企業一起來努力成立一個法人，我想對國人來說、對臺灣來說、對中華民國來說，都是一個很好的方向，這部分希望你能夠努力，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是，我們一起來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，吳主委請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.363468750000001,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.48221875,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.04284375,"end":56.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.32096875,"end":34.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.85659375,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.29221875,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.642218750000005,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.60659375,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.65096875,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.19471875,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.71784375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.44284375000001,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.52721875,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.07909375000001,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.21409375,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.28159375,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.97346875000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.50409375000001,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.52096875000001,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.60534375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.46596875,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.28846875,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.76471875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.95784375000001,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.29534375,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.31159375000001,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.80471875,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.82159375,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.33971875,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.48971875,"end":199.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.72971875000002,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.24721875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.78221875000003,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.03909375,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.32909375000003,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.32471875000002,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.57784375000003,"end":253.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.99909375000004,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.95971875000004,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.97659375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.52034375,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.91346875,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.12784375,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.97034375000004,"end":350.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.89596875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.79034375000003,"end":367.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.66534375000003,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.33409375,"end":384.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.34659375,"end":396.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.62846875,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.40846875,"end":392.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.76221875000005,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.28909375,"end":400.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.0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的確那個方向是正確因為中醫的那些脈動那些數據如果有人工智慧大資料庫來幫忙應該是會有蠻大的進展"},{"start":351.834,"end":353.936,"text":"國科會有沒有辦法導入數位科技協助中藥材的一個品質管理?"},{"start":369.28,"end":378.447,"text":"國科委還是要仰賴各個大學的教授來幫忙那這個剛剛我們這個處長已經有說過我們相關的計畫都有在call那這個方向應該是"},{"start":382.403,"end":383.063,"text":"主委你應該有聽過青冠一號吧?"},{"start":412.25,"end":418.82,"text":"有你有吃過嗎我到現在還沒有喔真的天選之人"},{"start":420.202,"end":447.258,"text":"但是我記得我在兩年前去Santiago開那個Bio的機很多台灣的人都買不到事實上我把我們的送給他他就很高興很多人跟我們要我自己也吃過新冠1號它是衛福部自行研發的一個中藥嘛那郭柯惠身為國內科技研發的中藥部會也負責跨部會的一個協調請問新冠1號有沒有其他的計畫"},{"start":449.861,"end":451.193,"text":"誒 這個要 收掉"},{"start":453.001,"end":478.461,"text":"我們國科會在114年會推一個中鋼計畫叫做中醫藥的實證醫學我要特別強調實證兩個字啦對就是說中醫藥歷史很久在臨床上有些可能大家有經驗但沒有實證的臨床資料所以我們會做這個事情我相信在未來應該不只青關醫藥應該很多學者會把他的秘方配方通通會拿出來申請這個實證醫學的計畫以上謝謝"},{"start":480.863,"end":504.313,"text":"好,那我想我還是要最後再因為我也蠻關心台版的CHAP GPT那其實我剛剛也談到到我們人腦與AI的這個所謂人機界面那我看到其實整個我們整個國科會裡面能夠帶領未來這個整個人機界面或者是深層式的AI來做一個整合規劃我覺得就像我剛剛在問您如果"},{"start":504.713,"end":522.181,"text":"未來你有辦法再結合一些民間的企業大家一起來整合這相關的資源因為我剛剛有提到台積電啊灰達啊都是我們非常知名的一個廠牌那如果能夠整合成由國家帶領的一個國家隊您做隊長那整合這些民間企業成為一個法人有沒有機會我還是想問一下"},{"start":524.827,"end":525.908,"text":"主委您不覺得這些業界其實蠻"},{"start":540.76,"end":541.04,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":555.837,"end":580.825,"text":"台灣如果由您的帶領之下又還有這些法人一起來協助對不起又要有這些廠商來協助的話我成為這個法人我想可以創造其他的一個機會更多的一個科技來造福國人這個部分您可以嘗試看看嗎成立法人完全沒錯台灣必須要合作事實上精創台灣方案裡面的IC體戰跟人工智慧這個"},{"start":582.005,"end":582.205,"text":"您可以認同嗎?"},{"start":600.776,"end":601.076,"text":"我們一起來努力!"}]}},{"id":"149863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135c311c94e340e6cb751d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a62b651861cc72ae2f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:26:54 - 10:35:47","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":533,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:35:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:26:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":495,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時27分）主席好，我想先請教中油董事長。"],["主席：請中油董事長。"],["鄭委員正鈐：董事長好。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我先repeat剛剛張啓楷委員所提出來的問題，因為依據天然氣事業法本來就有很具體的規定，經濟部也在100年就已經公告了，就是依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲槽容量的這個規定，你應該很清楚，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為兩岸兵凶戰危，目前臺灣天然氣的儲量夠嗎？我完全repeat剛剛張啓楷委員的問題。"],["李董事長順欽：夠，沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：夠，沒有問題嘛？"],["李董事長順欽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們大概可以維持幾天的儲量？"],["李董事長順欽：目前我們的容積天數，規定是11天，我們事實上有十六、七天，而事業安全存量天數規定是8天，我們有11天，所以這個部分沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：它規定是8天，我們有11天。"],["李董事長順欽：對，然後容積天數，其實我們達到16天。"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後容積天數可以到16天，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK喔？聽起來其實已經比相關規定有更好的儲藏容量，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不過我這邊也提供了義大利的數字給你看，從2019年義大利就很具體提出來了，他們的儲備容量是60天，而且他們是以高峰值的50%去計算。而我們，你剛剛預計8天或者16天的這個部分，它是用什麼樣的方式計算？是以整天的使用量去算，還是用什麼樣的數字去算？"],["李董事長順欽：我跟委員報告，容積存量天數現在規定11天，事實上我們來到差不多十八、九天，將近20天，這個怎麼算的，就是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：又更高了！"],["李董事長順欽：目前所有中油公司的天然氣儲槽，譬如在永安有6座、有69萬公秉；在臺中有6座、有96萬公秉，未來在三接會蓋2座、16萬公秉，臺中會蓋2座，都會算進來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以就越來越高，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你剛剛講到最高的數字，從規定的8天、11天、16天到現在是20天，是不是？"],["李董事長順欽：那是容積，儲槽容積……"],["鄭委員正鈐：儲槽容積嘛！"],["李董事長順欽：將近20天。"],["鄭委員正鈐：將近20天嘛！好。這個部分我想是所有國人都關心的問題，尤其在520之前，坦白說，兩岸的局勢相對緊張，大家都擔心兵凶戰危，也擔心整個被封鎖之後，影響到整個臺灣能源的供應，所以這個部分我就先提出來。","因為你很具體地回答了，我就開始問接下來的部分，我們看到整個預算書還有之前的決算書當中，今年預計長期借款會暴增500億，整個利息支出大概會增加一百多億，這兩個數字都沒有錯嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我想問，為什麼長期借款要增加？而增加這麼多的部分，主要是為什麼？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上這幾年來，從110年，111年、112年，這幾年中油公司在配合穩定物價政策，我們光政策吸收，天然氣就超過4,000億，油品也超過一千多億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那你說你長期借款這個部分是為了要去買天然氣、去貸款的錢嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：很多包括我們的重大投資。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之前的部分就已經有啦！我看到你這邊長期借款這個部分，很多時候是要配合國家政策……"],["李董事長順欽：是，包括我們的重大投資。"],["鄭委員正鈐：去做投資，對不對？那我想特別問一下，這麼多的投資項目當中，你為什麼會特別投入離岸風電海盛風場，有沒有特別的原因？"],["李董事長順欽：我想這是中油公司多元能源布局的一部分，我們包括太陽光電也在做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了海盛風場，我們還投入了哪些地方？"],["李董事長順欽：我們離岸風電就這一家。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就只有這一家，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這邊中油投了15%，因為風場很多，我不曉得為什麼特別投到海盛風場，是不是因為這個風場其實雲豹也有投資？"],["李董事長順欽：不是，事實上我們公司要投資都有從總公這個系統再到整個企研的系統，再到種種的專案會議，再到董事會討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之後再到本辦公室具體說明一下。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為風場其實很多。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：為什麼特別投資這個風場？把那整個評估的過程跟細節讓本席瞭解一下。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：海盛風場是不是比其他風場都來得好？這個我們特別關注。"],["李董事長順欽：好，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外我這邊也特別講一下，我看到你們這邊所有的決算書跟預算書，112年累計虧損是318億，這個數字沒有錯，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們預計113年的累計虧損會到249億，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：這是當時編預算的一個預估，那個數字會隨著油氣價格的變動而作調整。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以預計，在今年當中，我們的整個營運的部分會變成有69億！所以累計虧損才會減少，是這個狀態，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上我們是到112年年底累計虧損318億，但是這2個月我們稅前虧了102億，稅後虧了84億，所以我們累計虧損已經來到402億。但是我們認為下半年，就是第2季開始下半年應該會有一些好轉，所以我們的累計虧損會減少，到時候我的淨值會再增加。我的淨值現在是1,017億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我這邊只是要講一個點，318億是你們的數字，你提到上半年、這兩個月和下半年的發展情況，因為是預計嘛！"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：預計方面，我看到你們的數字是寫249億，當中有69億的差額，然後你預計今年可以轉虧為盈，會有盈餘33億，那我只是想說，69億和33億當中還有36億的差額要從哪裡補起來？"],["李董事長順欽：那是預算數的部分，事實上我們在這個過程中都還有一些譬如說投資性不動產用不同的形式去做評估。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，可是不動產或者是處分不動產類似嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：不是，是它的價值會有一些變化。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，是價值變化，不是帳上的變化，並不是真正的收入來源？"],["李董事長順欽：是，所以我們還是希望，剛剛在談我們的負債那麼多，我今年要付的付息、負債達到一百四十幾億……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。因為時間的關係，我就很快地講一個點，因為剛剛那36億當中，我在想你錢從哪裡來，我們也希望你能夠承諾在今年能夠凍漲民生天然氣和瓦斯價格，你有沒有辦法承諾？"],["李董事長順欽：這方面我們配合政府的政策。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。因為預算中心特別提到你們的低度使用和閒置土地每年要支出3,493萬的地價稅，裡面大概有9筆被預算中心特別列出來，請問你們要怎麼樣去活化這些土地的使用？有沒有具體的做法？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上我們有一個專門的部門叫做資產處，它目前在做我們一些土地的規劃、活化，都有在進行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，在你們的數字當中，我先特別針對新竹市的2筆土地，現在我出示的是它附近的照片，都長滿了植物，並沒有妥善利用，而且我發現你們這兩筆土地的公告現值就有2.79億，可是你們的預期效益只有2.7億，還不如它的公告現值，如果你們的預期效益這麼低的話，有沒有辦法直接把這塊土地給新竹市政府使用？"],["李董事長順欽：我想這不是我能夠決定的，因為我們所有資產的處理都要經過董事會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，最後這個問題再到本席辦公室來做個溝通，因為你們的公告現值高於預期效益，我不知道你們這個評估是怎麼做出來的。好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：好，我們再跟委員報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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委員好我先repeat一下剛剛我們張祺凱委員他所提出來的問題啦那我想說因為依據天然氣失業法的時候這個本來就有很具體的一個規定經濟部他也在100年就已經公告了就是依據天然氣生產或進口失業自備儲槽容量這個規定應該很清楚嘛對不對"},{"start":39.026,"end":45.549,"text":"因為兩岸兵兇佔為目前台灣天然氣的儲量夠嗎?這是我完全重複剛剛張綺凱委員的問題夠沒有問題我們大概可以維持幾天的儲量"},{"start":53.171,"end":79.807,"text":"我想我們目前我們的這個隆基天數是規定是11天那我們事實上有16、7天那事業安全存量天數規定是8天我們有11天所以它規定是8天我們有11天對對對然後隆基天數其實我們達到16天隆基天數可以到16天對不對OK那聽起來其實已經比這個相關規定"},{"start":81.568,"end":99.035,"text":"有更好的一個儲存儲槽容量對不對?不過我這邊我也提供了一個義大利的數字給你看從2019年義大利他就很具體提出來他們的儲備容量是60天那60天當中而且他們是以高峰值的50%去計算"},{"start":101.716,"end":127.411,"text":"那你剛剛預計這個8天或者是16天這個部分他是用什麼樣的方式計算是整天的一個使用量去算還是用什麼樣的數字去算我跟委員報告龍基存量天數現在歸定11天事實上我們來到差不多18、9天將近20天那這個怎麼算呢我目前所有的中油公司的天然氣的儲槽比如說我在永安有6座有69萬公屏"},{"start":128.231,"end":143.244,"text":"我在台中有6座有96萬公秉我未來在三屆會蓋兩座16萬公秉所以說越來越高啦 對不對所以現在剛剛你剛剛找到最高的數字從規定的8天、11天、16天到現在是20天嘛是不是那是農機除草農機可以種到將近20天"},{"start":146.266,"end":172.119,"text":"是,將近20天嘛,OK好那這個部分我想是所有國人都關心的問題尤其是在520之前其實坦白說兩岸的局勢相對緊張那麼大家都擔心兵凶戰危然後也擔心整個被封鎖之後影響到整個台灣能源的供應所以這個部分我就先提出來那我接下來我繼續因為你很具體的回答了我就開始去問接下來的部分"},{"start":173.64,"end":200.481,"text":"我們看到整個我們的預算書還有之前的結算書當中的時候我們看到就是在今年預計長期借款會暴增500億會預計暴增500億然後整個利息的支出大概會增加100多億這兩個數字都沒有錯嗎?是的我想問一下為什麼要長期"},{"start":202.45,"end":228.336,"text":"這款要增加然後增加這麼多的部分主要是為什麼?跟委員報告事實上這幾年來從110年111、112這幾年政府公司在配合穩定物價政策我們光政策吸收天然氣就超過4千億油品也超過1千多億那你說你長期借款這個部分是為了要去買天然氣去貸款的錢嗎?之前的部分就已經有啦你這邊的時候"},{"start":229.836,"end":245.874,"text":"我看到你這邊的時候你長期借款這個部分很多時候是要配合國家政策去做投資嘛 對不對那我想特別問一下這麼多的投資的項目當中你為什麼會特別投入離岸風電海聖風場"},{"start":247.856,"end":249.297,"text":"有沒有特別的原因?"},{"start":249.297,"end":258.883,"text":"我想這是中油公司多元能源佈局的一部分,我們包括太陽光電在做。 除了海聖風場我們還投了哪些地方?"},{"start":258.883,"end":262.906,"text":"我們光電就是,離亞風電就這一家。 就只有這一家對不對?"},{"start":262.906,"end":272.231,"text":"對對對。 那因為這邊的時候,就是中油投了15%,那因為風場很多,我不曉得為什麼特別投到海聖風場,是不是因為這個風場其實雲豹也有投資?"},{"start":275.374,"end":290.814,"text":"事實上我們公司要投資都有一個從總工這個系統再到整個企業的系統再到總的專業會議再到公司討論。 之後我再到本辦公室來具體說明一下因為風場其實很多嘛那為什麼特別投資這個風場"},{"start":293.317,"end":310.5,"text":"把那個整個評估的過程跟細節讓我們本席了解一下那海生風場是不是比其他風場都來得好這我們特別的關注然後另外我這邊也特別講一下我看到你們這邊所有的結算書跟預算書112年的累計虧損是318億對不對 這數字沒有錯對不對那我們預計113年的累計虧損會到249億對不對"},{"start":320.022,"end":334.986,"text":"這是當時被預算的一個預估,那這個數字會隨著油氣價格的變動而做調整所以說預計當中在今年當中的時候我們累計我們的整個營業的部分會變成有69億所以累計虧損才會減少,是這個狀態"},{"start":339.127,"end":348.31,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們是到112年年底累積虧損318億但是這兩個月我們稅前虧了102億稅後虧了84億所以我們累積虧損已經來到400億而已但是我們認為下半年就是說第二季開始下半年應該會有一些好轉所以我們累積虧損會減少到時候我的淨值會再增加"},{"start":361.733,"end":367.618,"text":"我這邊只是要講一個點因為318是你們的數字那你說這上半年這兩個月的情況發展跟下半年因為是預計嘛那我們這個預計我看到你們的數字寫249億那我想當中因為會有69億的差額然後你預計今年可以就是轉虧為盈會累積會有盈餘33億那我只想說69億跟33億當中還有36億的差額要從哪裡補起來"},{"start":391.275,"end":408.09,"text":"那是預算書的部分那事實上我們在這個過程中其實都還有一些譬如說投資性不動產的這個用形式去做評估投資不動產或者是儲分不動產類似嗎?不是不是它的價值會有一些變化"},{"start":409.531,"end":420.666,"text":"是價值變化只是帳上的變化並不是真正的一個收入的來源是所以我們還是希望說剛剛在提到的我們的負債那麼多我今年要負的這個複習負債達到大概40幾億來那因為這邊因為時間的關係我就很快的講一個點"},{"start":426.974,"end":428.016,"text":"這是我們配合政府的政策"},{"start":443.497,"end":466.963,"text":"最後預算中心這邊有特別提到一個部分就是我們的低度使用還有閒置土地每年要支出3493萬的一個地價稅的部分那裡面大概有9筆有9筆被預算中心特別列出來的情況那我們要怎麼樣去活化這些的使用我們有沒有具體的做法"},{"start":467.803,"end":483.693,"text":"市長我們有一個專門的部門叫做資產處我們在做我們一些目前一些土地的一個規劃一些活化都在進行這裡面有進行我看到你們的數字當中有些特別針對新竹市這邊有兩筆土地"},{"start":486.435,"end":511.497,"text":"這個是他附近的土都長滿了那個植物了都沒有妥善去利用那我發現你們這兩個資料當中的時候公告限值他就2.79億可是你們預計的期望預期效益只有2.7億還不如他的公告限值那如果說你們預期效益這麼低的時候有沒有辦法讓這塊土地直接給新竹市政府來使用"},{"start":512.578,"end":527.567,"text":"我想這個不是我能夠決定所有資產的處理都要經過董事會來討論之後這個問題再到本辦公室來特別做一個溝通因為你們的公告限職就高於你們預期效益我不知道你們這評估是怎麼出來的好不好再跟我們報告好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231357c7a11549e530a4bd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6b61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:21:23 - 10:34:54","影片長度":"00:13:31","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":811,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:34:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:21:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長及海巡署的周署長。"],["主席：請邱部長還有周副主委。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早，副主委早。今天早上是不是在金門限制水域有中國籍的漁船翻覆？有這樣的情況嗎？有接到通報嗎？整體的事件是怎麼發生的？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員做個報告，我們今天早上在6點2分的時候，接獲國搜中心的通知，在我們東碇西南方1.03浬的水域，也就是在我們禁限制水域內0.3浬的位置有一艘陸船翻覆，請我們提供救援的協助。"],["林委員楚茵：所以是他們自己行駛在我們禁限制水域內。"],["周副主任委員美伍：他們自己在行駛，在我們的禁限制水域內的漁船翻覆，那麼他通知的時候是有5個船員在上面，已經全部落海，半浮半沉，我們立即就派出線上艇，因為我們每天24小時有線上艇，一艘35噸艇立刻前往救援，同時我們從料羅直接再派出兩艘100噸、一艘35噸艇，這些艇在7點20分左右已經陸續到達東碇水域，現在持續在進行搜救當中。"],["林委員楚茵：所以目前最新搜救的情況是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：他原來是告訴我們有5個人，但是我們馬上跟對口單位漳州的海事聯絡單位確認今天早上所有的狀況，他們跟我們講是6位，那麼我們就一再地查證到底是6位還是5位，最後是福州的救援單位NRCC通知我們是6位，所以也就是說海巡對海巡的一個對口單位給我們的資訊是正確的。那在我報告的同時，陸方已經救起兩個生還者、兩個死亡者，這兩個死亡者中有一個是由我們東碇的守備部隊救起的，因為事發的同時我就在勤指中心下令，請我們的巡防區立刻通知東碇守備部隊，叫他們所有的人力到岸際去搜索，因為他離東碇島的岸際不到一浬，所以我主觀地判斷，我們如果用高倍的望遠鏡看，是可以看到這些人的，我們也確實看到了有一個人在我們的西南的海域，那我們的守軍就立刻要下去救，很不幸這個人救上來的時候就已經沒有生命跡象了，就交由陸方的搜救艦帶走，所以目前還有兩個人下落不明。剛剛在10分鐘前我們已經派遣潛水人員準備潛水到船艙內去看。"],["林委員楚茵：所以目前你所收到的資料就是在這艘船上面有6人，已經有4人尋獲，不論生或死。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對。"],["林委員楚茵：另外還有2人是失蹤的狀態。"],["周副主任委員美伍：現在是失蹤，還正在搜尋。我們現在都全力跟陸方共同在搜尋。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以剛剛周副主委的回答，邱部長，事實上我們國軍在這樣的通報當中也有進行協助救援跟搜救的任務，包括也有一些安全的防衛，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：這一定的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為陸方、中國的部分一定也有派出相關的搜救機，當然這是一個人道救援的狀況，但是就像今天幾位同仁不斷在詢問的就是在灰色地帶或在兩岸對峙的情況底下，發生了這種不幸事件的時候，一方面他們出動救援，但是救援會不會還有夾帶其他的任務偵查，其實對於國軍來說是兩邊都有警覺的，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：的確，因為我們在灰地及灰色事件來講的話，這種顧慮不是不可能，但我們不認定，所以為什麼一定要保持一定的監控，然後情報交換，這個就是我們必須要做的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想請問部長，今天早上這個事件通報之後，我們做了哪些監控？又或者做了哪些是監控，哪些是救援部分的協助？"],["邱部長國正：第一個，剛才海巡署署長也講了，我們聯合情監偵系統已經啟動了，第一個是監控。第二個，它本身島上的官兵也是一道納入的，它不能夠到海裡頭去做，最起碼沿岸……這都已經很明確了，絕對是共同合作來把這個任務完成。"],["林委員楚茵：所以對中國來說，中國這邊有出動搜救機嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有……"],["邱部長國正：可能後來又出來。"],["林委員楚茵：面對中國大陸出現搜救機，我們在國防這邊有什麼樣的因應嗎？國軍這裡。"],["邱部長國正：因為這個東西已經很確認了，第一個，它這個機具不是軍用的。第二個，它的人員並不是想要進犯的，完全一個人道方面的處理，我們能夠配合協助的，哪怕把這個撈上來以後，該要後續處理的，我們絕對是做人道方面的工作。"],["林委員楚茵：在這裡要給海巡跟國軍弟兄一個肯定，面對中國的步步進逼，甚至於威脅，目前已經確定這是一艘中國籍漁船，而且它是需要人道救援的時候，不論是海巡弟兄或者是國軍弟兄，第一線站在人道救援的立場上其實都是給予協助。所以我必須要講，署長，其實在這個過程當中，我們都還在討論三無船、對岸還在給我們臉色看，但是今天一早在禁止水域發生這樣的事件的時候，大家其實第一時間還是以救人為主，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然，這是我們平常的任務之一，救生、救難就是我們的任務之一，尤其金廈這個水域是一個很狹窄的水域，如果雙方不能夠合作的話，很多事情都很難處理，所以為什麼在過去這二十多年，我們跟對方的海事執法單位能夠有這麼好的溝通跟互相通聯的機制，也就是當這種緊急事故發生的時候，我們可以第一時間互通有無，然後他們派遣的救援是哪些、我們派遣的救援是哪些，因為救援要看水流，像今天就是向東的流，向東的流有兩節的流速，通常兩節的流速基本上我們的潛水人員就沒有辦法下去潛水，因為我們的限制是在一節，但是我們今天還是要全力來搶救可能生還者，所以我們要求他們綁上我們的安全鎖，然後我們希望在可行的範圍之內，儘量去救，爭取黃金救援時間。","剛剛最新的回報，這一艘船慢慢因為流的影響，已經靠近到我們的東碇島西南岸際。如果在退潮之後，東碇的守軍他們早上已經全部動員了，全部在岸際搜索，我相信跟我們海巡會協力把船艙內的整個狀況做一個瞭解。目前我們的潛水人員已經在水中備便，只要流向可行，我們隨時會潛進船艙裡面去搜索，我想這都是我們日常應該做好的事情。"],["林委員楚茵：周署長的發言，我也希望對岸中國能夠聽得到，對於人道救援的部分，我們絕對也是同理心在第一時間出動來協助。但是以本席的資料整理，就會發現中國的船隻非法越界其實層出不窮，對於海巡或者是鎮守我們海域的這些海軍弟兄們來說，其實都是相當疲憊不堪的。像今天早上所發生的，我們已經證實確實就是漁船翻覆的不幸事件，所以我們第一時間來救援。但是之前發生的，包括非法的三無船，又或者是過去所謂灰色地帶的行動，8年來超過1.7萬艘的中國民兵船或者是海警囂張的行為、製造灰色衝突的時候，我想就教部長跟署長，在這兩者之間我們如何判定？"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，以海警、海巡跟海軍而言，目前就我們所蒐集的樣態來看，它現在已經在聯合行動，通常它會把民兵船放在第一線，海警船放在第二線，海軍在第三線，這些相關的灰色地帶的作為，我們都有完整的蒐證。我們跟國防部也好，跟其他的國安單位也好，都有一個橫向的聯絡機制，每一種不同的狀況發生的時候，如果委員還記得的話，在前不久過年前後、選舉前後，他們曾經派了一艘拖船在離高雄港6浬、3浬的附近，火腿族有聽到，那時候也是對海巡有很多的不諒解，說為什麼我們沒有處理。其實從它還沒有進入到我們24浬，我們的船就一直伴隨它，因為它後面拖帶了一艘很大的船，如果在那種狀況下，我們去登檢它或者停止它，因為那個大船比拖船大很多，可能會有海上維安的顧慮，同時那個風浪是很壞的，那天的風浪是八級到十級，所以……"],["林委員楚茵：所以在海上的判斷當中，其實海巡這邊會有不同的專業判斷。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，它有不同的case，我們這些跨單位都有做一些資料庫，當我們在空中、海上或者其他的管道得知這樣子的船隻，我們第一件事情就要判定它是不是民兵船、它是不是對我們有企圖的情報船，因為任何一艘漁船都可能是民兵船，任何的漁船我們從外觀……"],["林委員楚茵：不好意思，我必須打斷你，因為我要留一點時間來問一下部長。部長，如同剛剛署長所說的，這個判斷有很多的層次，但是如果灰色衝突不斷地製造跟產生，您過去也提到，就像前幾天所講的，有關我們的第一擊的定義有所改變的時候，在面對像這樣的海上灰色衝突的時候，會變更您的定義嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不會，因為我所謂的要做第一擊就是航空跟海航實體，這沒有變，但是程序要走啊，我們不能說略過程序，漂過來一個木板我們也打，那不就離了……程序不會變，所以更加密切合作，而我們國軍偵監的方法，除了衡指所能掌控以外，各地有雷達或者是用目視的，還有透過電展室、軍情局等等，我們的情治單位都可以蒐整，綜整完以後就可以判斷它來的原因在哪裡、有無敵意。"],["林委員楚茵：我最後一個問題，就以海上這樣的情況來講，在判斷的流程、SOP是海巡署獲得資訊之後提供給國防部？又或者是一個什麼樣的流程決定了是不是惡意的第一擊，必須要有一些更嚴厲的、拉高軍事的行動？"],["邱部長國正：情資的交換是不停的，沒有講他們給我們、我們給他們，又或者是馬上通報，這就是平常在演練的過程當中的橫向聯絡，這納在訓練的過程當中。因為有這個過程，在這個當中就會做研判，這些人都是專業人員，不管是海上的也好，海巡也好，都是很專業的。我們的敵我識別都很容易判明，假如它是一個來意不善的，那我們該要警告的、該要喊話的，這個程序要有，如果它還不聽，那最後就是不期望看到的事情可能就要發生了。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。在此先宣告，等一下賴士葆委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請邱部長以及我們海巡署的周署長請邱部長還有周署長、周副主委林委員好"},{"start":17.074,"end":32.593,"text":"委員早部長早副主委早今天早上是不是在我們的金門的限制水域有中國籍的漁船翻覆有這樣的情況嗎?有接到通報嗎?那整體的事件是怎麼發生的?"},{"start":34.572,"end":58.362,"text":"我想跟委員做個報告我們今天早上在6點02分的時候接獲到國修中心的通知那麼在我們東定西南方1點03海裏的水域也就是在我們禁縣制水域內0點3海裏的位置有一艘陸船翻覆那麼請我們提供救援的協助"},{"start":59.122,"end":85.933,"text":"所以他們是一個他們自己在行駛在我們禁制水域內的一個漁船翻覆那麼他通知的時候是有5個船員在上面已經全部落海半浮半沉那我們立即就派出我們的線上艇因為我們每天24小時有線上艇一個35頓艇立刻就前往去救援同時我們從我們廖羅直接再派出"},{"start":86.653,"end":87.835,"text":"所以目前最近收就的情況是什麼現在目前他原來是"},{"start":103.757,"end":127.799,"text":"告訴我們是5個人,但是我們馬上跟我們的對口單位,叫漳州的海事聯絡單位去確認今天早上所有的狀況,那麼他跟我們講是6位,那麼我們就一再的查證到底是6位還是5位,那最後我們跟福州的NRCC就他的一個救援單位,他通知我們是6位"},{"start":128.579,"end":147.312,"text":"也就是說我們海巡對海巡的一個對口單位給我們的資訊是正確的那在我報告的同時我們現在陸方已經救起兩個生還者兩個這個死亡者這兩個死亡者有一個是由我們東定的守備部隊"},{"start":148.092,"end":170.232,"text":"因為事發的同時我就在秦始中心下令請我們的巡防區立刻通知東定的這個守備部隊叫他所有的人力到岸際去搜索因為他離東定島的岸際不到一海裏所以我主觀的判斷我們如果用高倍的望遠鏡看是可以看到這些人的那所以"},{"start":171.033,"end":171.373,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":191.262,"end":216.798,"text":"目前我們已經在剛剛10分鐘前我們已經準備潛水人員下去準備潛水到船艙內去看目前如果說您所知道的資料就是在這艘船上面有6人有4人已經尋獲不論生或死另外還有2人是失蹤的狀態現在是失蹤還正在搜尋那我們現在都全力在跟陸方一起在共同在搜尋"},{"start":217.418,"end":231.755,"text":"好,所以在剛剛周副主委的回答底下,邱部長,其實事實上我們國軍在這樣的通報當中也有進行協助的救援跟搜救的任務,包括其實也有一些安全的防衛對不對?因為陸方"},{"start":234.998,"end":259.239,"text":"所以說中國的部分他一定也有派出相關的搜救機那麼在我們安全防衛當然這是一個人道救援的狀況但是就像今天我們前面幾位同仁都不斷的在詢問的就是當灰色地帶或是兩岸對峙的情況底下發生了這種所謂不幸的事件的時候一方面他們出動救援但是救援會不會還有夾帶其他的任務偵查其實對於國軍來說是兩邊"},{"start":263.502,"end":264.566,"text":"都有警覺的是嗎?"},{"start":265.267,"end":273.813,"text":"所以我想請問部長就是今天早上這個事件獲得通報之後我們做了哪些的監控又或者做了哪些是監控哪些是救援部分的協助"},{"start":293.966,"end":295.467,"text":"所以對中國來說中國這邊他有出動搜救機嗎?"},{"start":320.532,"end":321.554,"text":"沒有,沒有,沒有。"},{"start":324.775,"end":352.917,"text":"可能後來又出來好,那麼面對中國當然出現搜救機那麼我們在國防這邊有什麼樣的因應嗎?國軍這裡沒有,因為這邊已經很確認了第一,它這個機具不是軍用的第二,它人員也並沒有進犯的完全一個人道方面的處理我們能夠配合協助的哪怕把這事撈上來以後該要後續處理的我們絕對是做人道方面的工作"},{"start":353.677,"end":374.43,"text":"在這裡其實要給海巡跟國軍的弟兄一個肯定其實面對中國的步步禁閉甚至於威脅但是確定這是一艘所謂的中國級漁船而且它是需要人道救援的時候其實不論是海巡弟兄或者是國軍弟兄第一線站在人道救援的立場上其實都是給予協助所以我必須要講書長其實在這過程當中我們都還在討論三無船對岸還在給我們的臉色看"},{"start":380.074,"end":387.713,"text":"但是真的今天一早在禁制水域發生了這樣的事件的時候大家其實第一時間還是以救人為主對不對"},{"start":388.881,"end":417.453,"text":"當然這是我們平常的任務之一救生救難就是我們的任務之一尤其是今夏這個水域是一個很狹窄的水域如果雙方不能夠合作的話那很多事情都很難處理所以為什麼在過去這20多年我們跟對方的海事執法單位能夠有這麼好的一個溝通跟互相通聯的一個機制也就是當這種緊急事故發生的時候我們可以第一時間"},{"start":418.553,"end":443.702,"text":"互通有無然後他派遣的這些救援的是哪些我們派遣的救援是哪些因為救援要看水流像今天就是向東的流西南向東的流有兩節的流速那麼通常兩節的流速基本上我們的潛水人員就沒有辦法下去做這個潛水因為我們的限制是在一節"},{"start":444.562,"end":462.316,"text":"但是我們今天還是要全力來救這個可能生還者所以我們要求他們綁上我們的這個安全鎖然後我們希望在可行的範圍之內我們盡量去救爭取黃金的救援時間那麼剛剛最新的回報這一艘船已經"},{"start":463.337,"end":463.757,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":496.159,"end":511.826,"text":"其實從總署長的發言我也希望對岸中國能夠聽得到我們對於真的是人道救援的部分我們絕對也是同理心的第一時間來出動來做協助但是以本席的資料"},{"start":512.927,"end":540.042,"text":"的整理就會發現說中國的船隻非法越界其實層出不窮對於海巡或者是鎮守我們海域的這些海軍弟兄們來說其實都是相當疲憊不堪的那中國這種另外一邊像今天早上所發生的我們確切已經證實到了確實就是漁船翻覆的不幸事件所以我們第一時間來救援來成員但是"},{"start":540.882,"end":547.825,"text":"之前發生的包括這種非法的三無船又或者是過去這種所謂灰色地帶的行動這個海上民兵到底兩者之間這種8年來超過1.7萬艘的中國民兵船或者是海警囂張的行為製造灰色衝突的時候我想就叫部長跟署長在這兩者之間的時候我們如何判定"},{"start":571.914,"end":576.866,"text":"海警、海巡跟海軍目前就我們所收集的樣態來看他現在已經"},{"start":579.775,"end":607.762,"text":"在聯合行動通常他會把這個民兵船放在第一線海警船放在第二線海軍在第三線那麼這些相關的這些灰色地帶的作為我們都有完整的修正那麼我們跟國防部也好跟其他的國安單位也好都有一個橫向的聯相這個聯絡機制每次每一種不同的狀況發生的時候如果委員還記得的話"},{"start":609.122,"end":634.567,"text":"在前不久,過年前後,選舉前後,他們曾經派了一艘拖船在離高雄港6海里,3海里的附近。那火腿族有聽到,也是那時候對海巡有很多的不諒解,說為什麼我們沒有處理。他從還沒有進入到我們24海里,我們的船就一直伴隨他,因為他後面拖帶了一艘很大的一個,一個,拖的一個船。"},{"start":635.327,"end":651.662,"text":"那如果在那種狀況下我們去登檢他或者停止他那個大船比他拖船大很多可能會有海上維安的顧慮同時那個風浪是很壞的那天的風浪是八級到十級所以在海上的判斷當中其實海巡這邊會有不同的專業"},{"start":656.026,"end":677.381,"text":"我們也都有,我們這些跨單位都有做一些資料庫當我們在空中或者海上或者其他的管道我們得知這樣子的一個船隻我們第一件事情就要判定它是不是民兵船它是不是對我們有企圖的情報船因為可能任何一個漁船都可能是民兵船"},{"start":677.921,"end":681.602,"text":"不好意思,我必須要打斷你因為我要留一點時間來問一下部長部長,那麼所以就如同剛剛署長所說的這個判斷有很多的層次但是如果灰色衝突不斷的製造跟產生的時候您過去也提到就像前幾天所講的我們的第一集的這樣的定義有所改變的時候那麼在面對像這樣的海上灰色衝突的時候會變更您的定義嗎?"},{"start":706.448,"end":728.336,"text":"不會,因為我所謂的要做這個第一期航空跟海航實體這沒有變,但是程序要走啊,我們不是在略過程序,飄過一個木板我們越打,那不就離得,程序不會變,所以更加密切合作,而我們國軍徵軍的方法,除橫指所能掌控以外,"},{"start":729.116,"end":744.659,"text":"各地它有雷達或者有目視的還有透過我們不管是電展室、軍營局等等我們情勢單位都可以搜審一搜審完以後就可以判斷它來的原因在哪裡,有無敵意"},{"start":745.08,"end":765.665,"text":"好我最後一個問題就是那麼在就以海上的這樣一個情況來講的時候在判斷的過程的流程SOP是海巡署獲得資訊之後提供給國防部又或者是一個什麼樣的流程決定了是不是惡意的第1集必須要有一些更嚴厲的拉高這個所謂軍事的行動"},{"start":768.306,"end":793.02,"text":"這個情勢交換是不停的沒有講他給我我們給他又或者馬上通報這就平常在演練的過程當中一個橫向一個聯絡就納在訓練的過程當中在因為有這個過程所以這個當中啊就會做研判這些人都是專業人員不管海上的也好海軍也好都很專業的我們的敵我識別都很容易被判明"},{"start":793.74,"end":794.02,"text":"李卓人議員"}]}},{"id":"149861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135d4432535749ef1db08cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a64d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:30:28 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10:34:59","影片長度":"00:04:31","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":271,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:34:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:30:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1076,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（10時30分）謝謝主席，也謝謝林淑芬林委員。我們請環境部的薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：薛部長，我請問你，因為環保團體一直認為固體再生燃料SRF原料含有毒廢棄物，燃燒會製造有害健康的空污，遭環團批評是假綠能，請問環境部推動固體再生燃料SRF轉廢為能，將廢棄物燃料化的政策目標，你們會不會改變？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，我們已經積極在進行了。"],["林委員德福：不行就要改變啊！你不能讓它繼續存在啊！"],["薛部長富盛：已經把它視為產品，所以從產品的角度來做分類，產品就會規範到原料裡面不可以含有那些……"],["林委員德福：這確實是有問題的，因為過往曾發生過知名廠商空污排放的數據造假，也有公家單位、資源回收廠技工勾結一些不肖的業者，植入特定的電腦程式來短報廢棄物的重量，這些案子都是利用主管機關疏於對後端整個監測電腦的數據查核，才讓不法人士能夠得逞，請問環境部如何要求燃燒SRF的業者符合相關空污排放的標準？地方稽查人力是否充足？如何去落實輔導，避免這些業者造假，在電腦數據裡面動手腳？是否動用空污基金？對於這些你有什麼看法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，的確剛剛委員所提到的一些問題，我們也發現到了，所以從去年我們就開始研擬修改整個 SRF，包括它的製造跟未來使用SRF排放標準的一個改變，以往事實上是沒有去做SRF產品的分類，所以的確會讓業者在裡面甚至有夾雜著一些……"],["林委員德福：所以稽查的工作很重要，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員德福：這次新北深坑火災，因為燒毀大量的鋰電池產品引發惡臭，而且有環保團體一直認為環保機關應全面性檢討火災等等空氣品質的監測項目，如戴奧辛等等，請問環境部是否會檢討、調整空氣品質嚴重惡化警告發布及緊急防制辦法？你們有沒有想法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，深坑發生這個不幸的火災事件，根據當時包括周遭環境空氣品質的監測，事實上它是沒有超過污染的排放標準，但是……"],["林委員德福：那個是很嚴重的……"],["薛部長富盛：但是因為惡臭的味道，影響了很多的居民，他們說整個晚上幾乎都不能睡覺……"],["林委員德福：對啊！很多人以為是隔壁鄰居發生火災。"],["薛部長富盛：這裡面當然是一個科學上的挑戰，惡臭……"],["林委員德福：你們應該要弄一個管理的機制，會後提供書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：最後一題，2050年淨零排碳的目標已經訂出後，交通部表示2025年電動公車的占比要達到35%，環境部的空污基金113年度計畫編列差不多5億，補助這些業者購買電動公車，以提高電動公車的普及率及減少交通運輸的空污；立法院預算中心指出，近年來補助購置電動公車預算執行率偏低，本席希望環境部要注意預算執行的狀況，要跟交通部好好的合作，以提高這些業者購買電動公車的意願，早日達成淨零排碳的目標，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。跟林委員報告，我們跟交通部的分工是這樣子的，汰換電動車這一塊由交通部負責，營運以及基礎設施的建置是由環境部來負責。"],["林委員德福：好，你們分工要把它做好，好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：有，OK，謝謝林委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們的林委員。剛剛已經宣告我們林淑芬委員發言完畢後就休息10分鐘，所以現在有請我們林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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10:29:37","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:29:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:18:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1039,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時18分）謝謝主席。有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。恭喜您擔任首屆的環境部部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：其實我們都知道目前不論是一般的廢棄物，或者是事業廢棄物，國內處理這些廢棄物的量能都相當的緊繃，不敢說嚴重不足，不過至少是非常緊繃，所以如何能夠提升再利用率，落實循環永續，本席認為是一個非常重要的議題。本席來自醫界，所以就特別關注醫療事業廢棄物的處理問題。我們發現3年前，即2021年的時候，有針對醫療廢棄物處理的費用在短時間裡面被大量調高的問題，我們也瞭解，根據審計部的審查結果，因為生物醫療廢棄物的處理成本相對比一般廢棄物還要高10倍到20倍。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：那時南投醫師公會就發現有一個地區醫院在被環保公司處理的過程中，很短的時間漲價了4倍，從原來每公噸7,000元變成破2萬塊，這是短時間內很大的衝擊，我們很擔心的是，透過這種負擔成本增加以後，會不會為了要緊縮這些廢棄物的使用，在希望成本能夠緊縮的情況下，造成醫療品質的下降，萬一未來又有同樣狀況發生時，不知道環境部薛部長有沒有哪些因應的措施？"],["薛部長富盛：因為那個是發生在2021年，剛剛賴署長也跟我反映，環境部那時候是環保署，事實上也有下去協助，我個人覺得現在的醫療院所的確在經營上也是相當的挑戰，特別是處理醫療廢棄物這一塊，它的單價也的確比較高，如同剛剛王委員所提到的，突然之間一下子漲那麼高，我個人覺得是可以商榷，不應該突然之間造成醫療院所那麼大的負擔。","至於醫療廢棄物處理的量能，我在這邊也跟委員報告一下，我們現在的資料顯示，每個月大概可以處理5,000公噸，實際上各個醫療院所報出來的大概是三千一百多噸而已，以量能來講，事實上是足夠的。"],["王委員正旭：是，不過依照部長您所說的處理量，我們看下一張簡報資料，我們可以發現，其實廢棄物目前的量還是遠超過您所提到的，依據我們看到的數據，每一年會有11萬餘噸的醫療廢棄物，可是目前的利用率只有21%，這部分好像有一些落差，我們很期待如果能夠有更精確的數字的話，對於未來貴部提供這些量能的處理，還可以再加強。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["王委員正旭：為什麼這個廢棄物的使用，回收率、利用率會下降？我們要瞭解一個很重要的原因之一就是，第一時間沒有做有效的分類回收，我們也瞭解，其實臨床現場的醫療工作人員要做這些使用廢棄物的分類回收面臨到相當的困難，而且他們有一些時間上的壓力，所以如果能夠有效的利用一些方法來改善第一時間的分類，相對應該是可以節省人力，同時又可以創造回收率。","針對醫材的結構或者是材質進行創新，讓回收的方便性提高的話，不知道環境部部長有沒有可以鼓勵或輔導業者來進行這方面的創新？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員的關心，上一個會期也有委員提到，在醫療領域，的確在ESG這一塊，以衛福部來講，過去比較沒有餘力去處理這一塊，環境部在ESG這一塊，特別是資源的回收再利用以及淨零排放，事實上我們有很多資源可以應用，所以我也回應王委員，這一塊我們跟衛福部來密切合作，希望在資源回收利用這一塊可以更進一步精進，因為我們現在也跟衛福部在推動醫療院所進行ESG，所以我想謝謝王委員特別重視這一塊，針對這一塊，環境部未來應該可以跟衛福部共同來努力，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：那就麻煩部長跟兩部之間有更好的合作關係。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好。"],["王委員正旭：其實醫療體系的永續發展真的是醫界非常關心的議題。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：我們發現邱泰源前立委非常關心醫療體系永續發展的議題，他在去年也發表相關的文章，期待醫療體系對溫室氣體排放的影響能夠再多盡一份心力。依據統計，醫療部門碳排放占全球淨排放的比率高達4.4%，臺灣相較之下還高於國際平均值，從4.4%變成4.6%，1年創造差不多20億噸的二氧化碳，所以醫療部門對全球的碳排放也需要負一些責任，這部分醫療院所有沒有進行哪一方面的改善措施？就部長您所瞭解的。"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，就我所知，上個會期有很多委員都關心這個議題，衛福部的薛部長也對委員報告會特別要求醫學中心等級的，因為他有領頭羊的效果，他們未來應該在年度的報告裡要把ESG這一塊納進去，包括盤點醫院的碳排以及能源使用效率的提升，事實上這非常重要，我覺得這一塊可能是醫療院所可以馬上進行的部分。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以落實ESG永續發展應該是目前國家的重大政策。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：是，那我們看一下，如果醫學中心要配合相關的發展的話，我們可以從他的五大任務裡面去做哪一些要求，我們看到最後一項「配合國家政策，肩負社會公益責任」，未來環境部除了剛剛所提到的以外，有沒有更好的角色可以來加強？或者如何能夠讓兩個部會之間有更好的合作關係？"],["薛部長富盛：有關淨零排放這一塊，事實上我們的氣候變遷署有提供一些輔導跟支援的措施，我們國家環境研究院也有做一些人才的培育，我們的資料顯示，的確醫療院所參與淨零排放課程的人數真的比較少，我們也希望醫學中心的主責人員可以跟環境部聯繫，環境部來提供人才的培訓，讓他們變成未來醫療中心的種子，把淨零排放的概念推展到醫療院所的每一個角落。"],["王委員正旭：主席我可不可以再多2分鐘？謝謝。其實我們也知道，目前根據剛剛部長的說明就可以瞭解，很多的醫學中心都執行、走在很前面，不管是臺大、馬偕，或者是新光，甚至是長庚體系，事實上都做了非常多這方面的要求，也希望在永續發展的部分盡一份社會責任。","我們再來看最後的部分，空污問題我相信剛剛已經有很多委員請教過部長，針對空污問題，因為我來自醫界，也知道癌症對國人的影響，空污問題如果能夠有機會做更好的處理的話，可以減少癌症的發生，空污是肺癌很重要的因素，所以空污所造成的問題，很希望環境部能夠更有效的來處理。包括剛剛盧委員提到開發行為引起空污，如何能夠在修法的過程中讓抵換的原則更周延，也期待部長針對各地的需求再多做考量，以上。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝，我們會來努力，謝謝王委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來有請林淑芬林委員。"],["林委員德福：他講完之後我講4分鐘，因為還有人在等我……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣的話，先讓他講。"],["林委員德福：這樣不好意思。"],["林委員淑芬：不會。"],["林委員德福：好，不好意思，那我們就換了。"],["主席：我們有請林德福委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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來萬一又有同樣狀況發生的時候那不知道環境部學部長這邊有沒有哪一些因應的措施"},{"start":132.934,"end":147.253,"text":"我想因為那個是發生在20212011年那我們剛剛賴署長也跟我反映說事實上環境部那時候是環保署事實上也有下去協助那我個人覺得就是說"},{"start":148.114,"end":148.254,"text":"議員王正旭"},{"start":166.434,"end":183.751,"text":"啊可以上去不應該突然之間造成醫療院所那麼大的負擔那至於說這個醫療會期處理的量能我在這邊也跟委員報告一下就是說我們現在的資料顯示是每個月大概可以處理5000公噸"},{"start":186.755,"end":216.178,"text":"那我們實際上的各個醫療院所報出來大概是3100多噸而已啦所以事實上量能來講事實上是足夠的是是不過如果依照部長您所說的這個處理量我們看下一張的資料我們可以發現其實廢棄物目前齁目前的量還是會遠超過您所提到的"},{"start":216.718,"end":231.617,"text":"因為依據看到的數據是每一年會有11萬餘噸的這些醫療廢棄物可是目前的利用率只有21%所以這部分好像有一些落差我們很期待說如果能夠有更"},{"start":233.258,"end":258.932,"text":"正確的這個數字的話那對於未來貴婦提供這些量的處理還可以再加強那為什麼這個廢棄物的使用回收率利用率會下降我想我們一個瞭解一個很重要的原因之一呢就是第一時間沒有做有效的分類回收那我們也瞭解其實臨場現場的這些醫療工作人員要做這些"},{"start":261.263,"end":277.521,"text":"使用廢棄物的分類回縮面臨相當的困難而且他有一些時間上的壓力所以如果能夠有效的利用一些方法來改善這個第一時間的分類的話相對應該是可以節省人力"},{"start":277.901,"end":302.952,"text":"那同時又可以創造回收率所以針對醫材的結構或者是材質進行創新讓這個回收率方便性提高的話這一部分不知道環境部部長這邊有沒有可以做鼓勵或輔導業者來進行這方面的創新謝謝王委員的關心的確包括在上一個會期也有委員提到在這個醫療領域的確在ESG在這一塊"},{"start":306.834,"end":307.694,"text":"阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿"},{"start":325.959,"end":346.685,"text":"那所以我也這個回應黃委員就是說這一塊我們跟衛福部來密切合作希望在資源回收利用這一塊可以更進一步來精進因為我們現在跟衛福部在推動包括醫療院所來進行ESG的一個推動的這一塊所以我想"},{"start":347.505,"end":368.059,"text":"謝謝王委員你特別重視這一塊那我覺得這一塊環境部未來應該可以跟衛務部那來共同來努力那就麻煩部長跟這個兩部之間有更好的合作關係那其實醫療體系的永續發展真的是一屆非常關心的議題我們也發現這個秋"},{"start":373.522,"end":394.43,"text":"太原前立委針對於醫療體系的永續發展非常關心這個議題所以他在去年也發表相關的文章期待醫療體系對溫室氣體排放的影響能夠再多盡一份心力因為依據統計我們發現醫療部門碳排放占全球"},{"start":395.23,"end":395.71,"text":"一年會創造差不多"},{"start":413.044,"end":413.564,"text":"議長您所瞭解"},{"start":432.538,"end":453.819,"text":"跟王委員報告,就我所知道因為上會期很多委員都關心這個議題那衛福部的薛部長事上他也對這個委員來報告說他們會要求特別是醫學中心等級的他有領頭羊的效果他們應該未來在年度的報告裡面要把ESG的這一塊"},{"start":454.36,"end":469.548,"text":"議員．"},{"start":469.848,"end":493.488,"text":"所以若是ESG的永續發展應該是目前國家的重大政策是那我們看一下如果這個醫學中心要配合相關的發展的話那我們可以從他的這個五大任務裡面去做哪一些的要求我們可以看到在最後一項配合國家政策來肩負社會公益責任那未來環境部"},{"start":494.449,"end":504.346,"text":"除了剛剛所提到的以外那有沒有更好的這個角色可以來加強或者是如何能夠讓兩個部會之間有更好的合作關係"},{"start":506.175,"end":533.07,"text":"有關這個近年排放的這一塊事實上我們的氣候變遷署事實上有提供一些輔導跟支援的措施我們國家環境研究院也有做一些人才的培育我們的資料顯示的確醫療院所去參與包括近年排放的課程的人數真的是比較少那我們也很希望說這些醫學中心的"},{"start":534.711,"end":553.485,"text":"主責人員應該可以跟環境部來聯繫環境部來提供包括做人才的培訓讓他變成我們未來醫療中心的一個總製把這個近年排放的概念推展到整個醫療院所的每個角落"},{"start":554.859,"end":574.658,"text":"主席,我可不可以再多兩分鐘,謝謝。其實我們也知道目前根據剛剛這個部長的說明,其實在醫學中心我們往下看就可以了解很多的醫學中心都執行走在很前面,不管是臺大、馬街"},{"start":576.772,"end":603.36,"text":"或者是星光甚至是長庚體系事實上都做了非常多相關的這方面的要求那也希望從永續發展的部分進一份的這個社會責任那我們再來看最後的一部分空污問題我相信剛剛已經有很多的委員也請教過部長那針對空污問題因為我來自一屆"},{"start":604.645,"end":632.294,"text":"也知道癌症對國人的影響空污問題如果能夠有機會做更好的處理的話可以減少這個癌症的發生肺癌是很重要因素所以空污問題所造成的問題我們很希望環境部這邊能夠更有效的來處理那包括剛剛盧委員有提到這個開發行為引起這個空污的部分如何能夠在修法的過程裡面"},{"start":633.414,"end":633.795,"text":"恭喜王主席"}]}},{"id":"149859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135f4ed33dbd33263a49acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a687e74d03d353af155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:16:41 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10:27:55","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":674,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:27:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:16:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時16分）好，謝謝主席，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁早安。我想今天針對的就是去年央行對於CPI多次上修的原因來跟總裁做討教，在2023年，其實全年的CPI年增率已經是到了這15年來的第2高，我們從主計總處的統計數字裡頭可以看到，2023年全年度CPI的年增率已經到了2.5%，那今年2月份的CPI，其實年增率也來到了3.08%，在這裡要請教總裁，為什麼2023年CPI的增加是這麼高呢？它可能存在的原因是什麼？你們怎麼樣來看待CPI的上升？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們的CPI在2023年是2.5%沒有錯，2.49%啦！後來主計總處修改為2.49%，在2022年的時候是2.95%，那表示說2023年是有下降下來。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：那下降下來主要的因素還是在服務類，外食、肉類還有服務類，剛好就是說我們……"],["賴委員惠員：好，主要在服務業，是不是因為整個疫情的影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，等疫情放寬了以後，你看看我們到國外去的，還有整個的餐飲業，這些成長率都很高，它帶動的還包括旅遊、住宿，這些都是很非常熱絡的。"],["賴委員惠員：我們從央行的新聞稿裡頭看得出來，你們在整個CPI年增率的預測裡頭，你們已經有注意到近期的民生物價一直在上漲，尤其你也提到娛樂的問題……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：這個價格高漲，看起來它已經是超乎我們的預期，然後還有氣候變遷、禽流感，這些食物類……實質的總薪資一直在下跌，定存利率趕不上通膨，民眾的錢變少了、變薄了，其實你真正面臨到的是一個實質的負利率，那你怎麼看待這個事情呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在去年的時候，特別是製造業的整個薪資下跌，為什麼？因為國外的需求下降。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以整個製造業的薪資就下來，服務業還好，但是總的來講還是負的，但是我們到今年來看的話，我們今年2024年的經濟成長會比較好。"],["賴委員惠員：會比較好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們的經濟成長……"],["賴委員惠員：為什麼會比較好呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為全球的出口會復甦，我們出口復甦了以後，投資額會增加，我們去年的投資是負的，今年會正的，我們的出口如果是正成長，投資也會正成長，而且我們的consumption消費這個部分還是依然有動能。"],["賴委員惠員：是。我想這整個連動，我們大家都非常理解，問題是定存利率就是1.56%，可是通膨這麼嚴重，如果央行沒有辦法去感受到實際上老百姓的一個體溫上的通膨，那怎麼辦呢？錢確實是變薄，民怨產生了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，今年的通膨會下來，只是下來的幅度大小而已，我們的經濟成長也會……"],["賴委員惠員：可是你剛剛又講了，你說全世界其實景氣是變好的啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們臺灣是會比較好。"],["賴委員惠員：臺灣會比較好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：會受全世界的影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們受全世界的影響，稍微會……","因為今年我們的出口會好，出口好主要就是，出口的整個貿易量會成長的。"],["賴委員惠員：所以總裁有看到，歐美央行其實都已經在升息了，已經拉到近10年的一個高點了，為什麼？因為最大的挑戰就是在物價遠高疫情以前……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯，因為那個時候……"],["賴委員惠員：現在整個物價是高於疫情之前，也造成了很多的民怨，如果通膨的問題再加上未來的電費調整，以及一些看病醫療費用的調整，央行應該是要更積極地從民眾的角度去看待通膨的問題，你有沒有考慮到貨幣的政策做調整呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我剛剛也回答其他委員的質詢，在這一次的理監事會，我們會很嚴肅地來討論這個問題。"],["賴委員惠員：嚴肅地考慮？就是在貨幣的政策，你也會做這樣的調整嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就是要嚴肅地討論。"],["賴委員惠員：這個也是工具之一，也是政策之一啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我要請教你，今年的通膨率，你的目標設定在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的通膨目標，如果以目前1.89%，去年底的時候，我們是用1.89%，但是今年4月份會調漲電價，我們會把電價的作用，它的影響我們會考慮進去，所以這樣的話，恐怕我們必須要上修通膨率。"],["賴委員惠員：對，你會上修通膨率。"],["楊總裁金龍：可能會，我是說可能。"],["賴委員惠員：因為實質的負利率已經越來越嚴重了，你們也看到了這一個問題，所以你一定要透過你的貨幣政策，還是種種的方式，甚至從銀行裡頭去收錢回來的這一些政策去調整，這個市場你必須要機動性的調整，是不是這樣子呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員講得很有道理。"],["賴委員惠員：有道理？好。那你的信用管制有用嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：信用管制當然有用啊！"],["賴委員惠員：可是房價還是一直在漲啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是信用管制所針對的不是房價。"],["賴委員惠員：不是房價？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，中央銀行法裡面，我們的經營目標沒有房價的這個問題，你看看，我們是金融穩定……"],["賴委員惠員：對嘛！在全世界，在你們的通膨裡頭，你們一直沒有把房價納進來……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有房價。"],["賴委員惠員：這就是大家最大的一個困境嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是房租有。"],["賴委員惠員：房租有，可是房價沒有啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：房價沒有，因為全球央行的利率政策沒有針對房價的，大家都是要針對通膨的。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁在這裡，我也是要跟你提醒，全臺灣80%的人其實都是有第一棟房子的，可是你還是受限在20%這些首貸還是這些年輕人，他們是沒有房子的，如果我們一直用這樣的一個保守的政策來看通膨，我們一直用這樣保守的政策來看整體的總體經濟，我們會造成很大、很大的民怨。你怎麼看待這個問題呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣，中央銀行……"],["賴委員惠員：你手上的工具最多了。"],["楊總裁金龍：也不一定是中央銀行，所以政府才會推出健全房屋方案，健全房屋方案是好幾個部會在裡面，中央銀行只是其中之一，中央銀行的職責就是避免房地產泡沫化，而導致影響到金融穩定，這是中央銀行的一個職責。"],["賴委員惠員：是。我們非常清楚地看到總裁講的，每一個人不管是財政部，還是我們的央行，其實對總體的經濟都有很大的主控力跟影響力，可是房價沒有如預期的回穩，反而是一直在上漲，剛才在上一頁的一個資料裡頭，我們就看到了信義房屋特別講到Q3、Q4，其實房價還是會持續的上漲，甚至去年2023年你在6月宣布管制以後，房子還是跟著漲，所以顯然光是央行的努力還是不夠，要整個連動進來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好，如果你收回流動性的一個……譬如我可以從銀行裡頭去做總量的管制，把貨幣做總量的管制，你會不會覺得這樣會有一個積極抑制整個房價的……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想銀行的流動性基本上都被我們縮了，它的流動性都被我們縮了。"],["賴委員惠員：都被你們縮了？"],["楊總裁金龍：多餘的流動性都被我們縮了。"],["賴委員惠員：都被你們收走了？"],["楊總裁金龍：都被我們收走了。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝總裁，在這裡本席要要求持續觀察通膨的狀況，把民生的感受納入考量。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：還有，你要適時的改變現有的貨幣政策，對房價上漲的現象，你要評估是不是可以用信用管制以外的貨幣政策手段來抑制房價快速的上漲。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我希望一個月以後提供給本席這樣的報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝總裁、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請王鴻薇王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":3.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":4.519718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.493468750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.029093750000001,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.32659375,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.98784375,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.98159375,"end":54.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.8747187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我想是這樣啦。你手上的工具最多啦。 我也不一定啦。所以這個才會就是說政府才會推出健全房屋方案。 那這個健全房屋方案裡面是好幾個部會。"},{"start":531.519,"end":546.136,"text":"在裡面中央銀行只是其中之一那中央銀行的職責呢我們就是避免你的你的房地產泡沫化而導致影響到你的這個金融的穩定這是中央銀行的一個職權職責"},{"start":548.76,"end":565.818,"text":"是,我想這個在下一頁我們非常清楚的看到總裁你在講的就是說這個每一個人不管是財政部啦就是還是我們的央行其實對總體的一個經濟都有很大的一個這個主控力和影響力"},{"start":566.619,"end":589.711,"text":"可是房價沒有如一起的回穩反而是一直在上漲剛才在上一頁的一個資料裡頭我們就看到了新宜房屋他特別講到了Q3 Q4其實房價還是會持續的上漲那甚至就是說你這個是2023年就是去年的你在6月宣布管制以後房子還是跟著漲"},{"start":590.771,"end":611.888,"text":"所以顯然就是說光是央行的一個努力還是不夠就是說要整個聯動的一個進來那如果你收回流動性的一個比如說我可以從這個銀行裡頭去做那個總量的一個管制我把貨幣做總量的一個管制你會不會覺得說這樣子會有一個積極的"},{"start":616.472,"end":642.231,"text":"我想銀行的流動性基本上都被我們縮了他的流動性都被我們縮了都被我們縮了多餘的流動性都被我們縮了都被你縮了都被你縮了謝謝總裁在這裡本席要要求就是持續的觀察就是通膨的一個狀況那就是把民生的感受納入了一個考量"},{"start":643.352,"end":662.222,"text":"還有你要適時的改變現有的貨幣政策那對黃價的一個上漲的一個現象你要評估是不是可以用信用管制以外的貨幣政策手段來抑制這個黃價快速的一個上漲那我希望一個月以後提供給本席一個這樣的那個報告好謝謝總裁謝謝"},{"start":669.966,"end":672.898,"text":"下一位質詢請王宏威王委員"}]}},{"id":"149858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231358d280bafef25b7e951d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:18:49 - 10:26:51","影片長度":"00:08:02","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":482,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:26:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:18:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時18分）主席，首先我也想要表達一下，雖然我剛剛錯過了，但是我想大家都將心比心，希望大家都能夠互相維持一下委員質詢的權益。","接下來我請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想要再請問您一次，台電這一次預計要漲電價到底是什麼理由？"],["王部長美花：台電確實因為之前吸收了非常多的成本，所以虧損的情形讓他的財務比較嚴峻……"],["張委員嘉郡：難道不是因為能源價格飆高才要漲電價嗎？"],["王部長美花：就是因為國際的燃料成本確實漲得非常多，所以讓台電吸收了非常多成本。"],["張委員嘉郡：113年度台電的幾種燃料費用，核能、燃料、燃油、燃氣等等，占比最高的是什麼？"],["王部長美花：113年應該是燃氣。"],["張委員嘉郡：天然氣，沒錯就是占了61%，既然占了61%，您知道台電的天然氣是跟誰買的嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟中油買的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是的，就是跟中油買的，中油擁有國內天然氣市場的專賣權，所以請教部長，台電向中油買天然氣的價格是多少？"],["王部長美花：中油會按照相關情形跟國際狀況去做變動。"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴你答案，每立方公尺15.75塊，你應該可以看得到，你仔細看一看，電業用戶15.75塊，也就是說這個牌價賣給台電是最貴的，甚至比汽電共生系統都高了將近兩倍的價格，為什麼？"],["王部長美花：目前中油賣的用戶有台電、有工業、有民生，那我們確實……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，你自己看一看，這比工業用戶大大多了將近兩倍的價格，所以賣給台電是最貴的，這等於是左手賣給右手，都是經濟部所屬的公司，然後現在台電說虧損了，又要全民漲電價，這不都是讓全民買單嗎？"],["王部長美花：就天然氣的部分，我們在民生跟工業部分，因為穩定物價的關係，確實目前都還沒有調整到原來的水準，台電的部分，中油也有降……"],["張委員嘉郡：我不能理解的是，中油賣給台電怎麼會這麼貴，然後賣給一般用戶便宜這麼多？台電跟中油等於是經濟部、國內能源的左右手，左手賣給右手特別貴的價錢，然後右手哭哭說：我受不了了！我要漲電價，要拉高價格向人民揩油，這樣說的過去嗎？這不就是台電跟中油聯合向人民揩油，要人民買單嗎？"],["王部長美花：應該不能這樣講，因為中油賣給台電，過往其實國際非常貴的時候，他也沒有反應充足的成本……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以呢……"],["王部長美花：第二個，在民生部分，像委員也一直提到包括桶裝瓦斯不要漲，所以事實上現在賣給民生的確實遠低於成本沒有錯。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在想要提的就是，所以經濟部除了向行政院爭取1,500億補貼之外，應該也要搭配調降中油賣給台電的天然氣價格，您同意嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個部分其實都有緩步在調降。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不是也請李董事長？"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是也能夠隨著現在國際的天然氣價格調降，你們賣給台電的價格也能夠調降？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上從去年3月開始，我們對台電的天然氣價格已經調降了6次，最高是在20塊3毛6，現在已經逐步降到15塊，我講的是未含稅。這裡面我們已經將近3年，民生公用這邊沒有調整，從110年6月開始，這部分我們就是為了穩定物價，所以民生公用部分我們就維持8塊3毛5。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席拜託李董，我知道您是從基層做起，這一點希望你務必用專業，一定要能夠調降這個價格，讓台電能夠止損，希望它可以不要再繼續虧損，等於是不要再繼續……像明年，假設明年我們還要再補貼它，真的，我很難想像，如果假設明年還要再漲電價，我們國家真的是吃不消。","部長，我在這裡還是要再一次訴求，希望除了桶裝瓦斯不要漲之外，用電330度以下的弱勢用戶不要調漲，包括農漁牧用電不要調漲。這一點，部長，是不是可以拜託您？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員，在電價審議委員會對很多的參數跟因素，我們都會很仔細地考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，特別再一次地呼籲，也特別再一次地拜託。","我也想趁這個機會，因為現在綠能其實有很多很多的弊案也好，或者是人民的疑惑也好，就是在我們雲林縣現在有很多土地都被劃為低地利，而且是在沒有跟地方溝通之下就被劃為低地利，很多土地明明都還在耕作，就被劃為低地利，這一點引起地方很多的反彈。甚至以口湖鄉為例，口湖鄉一個鄉就被劃了2,000多公頃，它整個鄉等於是三分之一都被劃為低地利，等於不鼓勵它生產、不鼓勵它養殖，整個鄉為之沸騰。部長怎麼看這件事情？"],["王部長美花：事實上農業部在認定它是低地利都非常謹慎，另外假設農民還有在農作的部分，這個在個案審查的時候能不能來利用做相關的能源，其實都會參考它現在的實際使用狀況，並不是講了就一定都會去把它變更成相關的供電……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在想要提醒經濟部，在規劃過程必須考慮到這些人的心聲，不要讓農民成為光電產業下的犧牲者。"],["王部長美花：不會，如果它還在農作的部分，這個我們相關部會在審的時候一定都會考慮。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，特別拜託，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。接下來請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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核能、燃料、燃油、燃氣等等 佔比最高的是什麼?113年的部分應該是燃氣的部分 天然氣沒錯 就是佔了61% 那既然佔了61% 您知道台電的天然氣是跟誰買的嗎?"},{"start":87.807,"end":92.911,"text":"臺電跟中油買的?是的,就是跟中油買的。中油擁有國內天然氣市場的專賣權所以請教部長臺電向中油買天然氣的價格是多少?這個中油是會按照他的相關的情形跟國際的狀況去做變動"},{"start":113.125,"end":119.408,"text":"15.75塊每立方公尺15.75塊每立方公尺應該可以看得到你仔細看一看電業用戶15.75塊這一個牌價這就是說賣給台電是最貴的甚至比氣電共生系統都高了將近兩倍的價格為什麼"},{"start":143.808,"end":166.812,"text":"目前的這個中油它賣的用戶有台電、有工業、有民生。 那我們確實... 你自己看一看比工業用戶大大多了將近兩倍的價格所以賣給台電是最貴的然後所以這等於是說左手賣右手都是你經濟部所屬的公司然後現在台電說虧損了"},{"start":170.188,"end":174.679,"text":"然後要全民漲電價 這不是都是讓全民買單嗎?"},{"start":177.855,"end":192.063,"text":"就相關的這個天然氣的部分我們確實在民生跟工業的部分因為穩定物價的關係確實目前都還沒有調整到原來的水準我不能理解的是說怎麼會我們中油賣給台電這麼貴然後賣給一般的用戶便宜這麼多"},{"start":204.35,"end":211.216,"text":"等於是臺電跟中油是經濟部國內能源的左右手左手賣給右手特別貴的價錢然後右手哭哭說我受不了了我要漲電價然後要拉高這個價格要向人民卡油"},{"start":223.067,"end":223.107,"text":"這樣說得過去嗎?"},{"start":223.107,"end":224.968,"text":"這不就是台電跟中油聯合向人民卡油讓人民買單嗎?應該不能這樣講齁因為中油賣給台電的部分在這個過往他其實國際非常貴的時候"},{"start":238.658,"end":250.702,"text":"他也沒有反映充足的成本。第二個在民生的部分鄉委員也一直提到這箱包括桶裝的瓦斯不要炸所以事實上現在賣給民生的確實遠低於成本沒有錯我現在想要提的就是說"},{"start":257.785,"end":263.052,"text":"所以經濟部除了向行政院爭取1500億的補貼之外應該也要搭配調降中油賣給台電的天然氣的價格您同意嗎 這個部分都有其實都有緩步的在調降"},{"start":276.027,"end":280.85,"text":"是不是也要請那個董事長李董是不是也能夠隨著現在國際的天然氣價格調降你們賣給台電的價格也能夠調降呢?根本報告事實上從去年的3月開始我們對台電的這個天然氣的價格已經調降了6次"},{"start":296.697,"end":301.42,"text":"最高其實是在20塊3毛6現在已經逐步降到15塊我講的是未含稅那跟委員報告這裡面我們已經將近3年民生公用這邊沒有調整從110年的6月開始所以這部分我們就是為了穩定物價所以民生公用我們就維持8塊3毛5對本席拜託這個李董我知道您是從基層做起這一點希望你務必用專業一定要能夠"},{"start":323.993,"end":350.38,"text":"調降這個價格讓台電能夠止損希望他可以不要再繼續虧損能夠等於是不要再繼續像明年假設明年我們還要再補貼他真的我很難想像說如果假設明年還要再漲電價我們國家真的是吃不消那部長我在這裡還是要再一次的訴求希望說除了統裝瓦斯不要漲之外用電"},{"start":352.461,"end":364.396,"text":"這個330度以下的弱勢用戶不要調漲包括農漁牧用店不要調漲這一點部長是不是可以拜託您?謝謝委員那在電價省委員對很多的這個參數跟因素我們都會很仔細的來考量"},{"start":370.623,"end":370.723,"text":"在我們雲林縣"},{"start":388.287,"end":404.157,"text":"現在有很多的土地都被化為低地利而且是沒有跟地方溝通之下就被化為低地利很多的土地明明都還在耕作就被化為低地利其實這一點"},{"start":405.538,"end":406.438,"text":"所以部長你怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":429.243,"end":435.768,"text":"事實上農委會在認定它是滴滴都其實是非常謹慎那另外一個就是說假設農民還有在農作的部分那這個在個案審查的時候能不能來利用做這個相關的能源其實都會參考它現在的實際的使用的狀況並不是說講了就一定都會去把它變更成農地"},{"start":452.939,"end":470.423,"text":"所以我現在想要提醒經濟部的是在規劃的過程必須考慮到這些人的犧牲不要讓農民成為光電產業下的犧牲者不會不會如果他還在農作的部分那這個我們相關的部會在審的時候一定都會考慮好特別拜託謝謝好謝謝張嘉郡委員接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言"}]}},{"id":"149857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135adcee0a8db40a81a836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a653aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:13:08 - 10:25:59","影片長度":"00:12:51","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":771,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:25:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:13:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時13分）我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：張委員，早！"],["張委員雅琳：主委，你好！其實國科會這幾年在做的事情都是在帶動整個臺灣的產業競爭力，來做我們更多的產業提升，讓我們可以保持世界競爭力，我在這邊非常地感謝，其實我自己是非常關注國科會的一些相關研究，最主要就是我自己的小孩是非常非常喜歡這個領域，所以今天的問題我大概就問一下有關於核心技術，還有ChatGPT，以及我小孩非常關注的一個叫做兒少科普的部分，還有太空中心的發展。","我們接下來先來講國家的關鍵技術，在去年的時候我們有公告22項國家的核心關鍵技術，這個領域大概含括了國防、農業、半導體、太空以及資通安全，因為臺灣的IC產業其實製造技術是領先全球，臺灣的市占率也達到了59%，14奈米以下的在全球的市占率更是高達70%，所以我是非常認同我們要去保護我們國家的核心競爭力，那我也想請教，因為新聞有講今年3月或4月的時候還會有第二波核心關鍵技術的管制清單出來，所以我想要知道大概在什麼時候會出來？這些相關的審議會已經召開了嗎？會含括哪些領域？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，我們去年12月5日公布以後有說3個月會做滾動修正……"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯。"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上，部會已經盤查，就是針對我們公布的五個大領域，目前部會應該是沒有新的修正，但是我們也在看，它有那個技術以後，還要去找一些執行的計畫和執行的人……"],["張委員雅琳：所以預計什麼時候會公布呢？因為現在聽起來是有個進度，所以公布的進度大概什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員政忠：目前是沒有新的提出來……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那我們有一個top-down的，就是我們有在看，有一些技術也必須要再進來，譬如一些生醫、生技的技術。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我瞭解，那我想要知道這個進度，因為3月已經過了一半，所以大概是在4月嗎？4月會提供給大家，讓大家知道有哪些是核心關鍵技術嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們那個技術出來以後，我們還有一個核心關鍵技術的辦公室要再去看跟外面一些相對應的……"],["張委員雅琳：所以聽起來是時程會再延後嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：沒有，3月，沒有延後……"],["張委員雅琳：OK，所以公布的時間是什麼時候？"],["蔡副處長妙慈：跟委員報告一下，第一批的部分，剛剛我們主委有提到，當時在講3個月要滾動檢討修正的……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["蔡副處長妙慈：是針對這22項，我們公布了之後，部會又再整體跟各界去溝通，看有沒有需要再進一步去做滾動檢討的……"],["張委員雅琳：所以你的意思是這22項我們沒有要新增是嗎？"],["蔡副處長妙慈：目前沒有要去做調整的部分，那時候講3個月指的是這件事情。第二波的部分，因為依照規定我們每年至少要開一次國家審議會……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["蔡副處長妙慈：所以現在各部會就是在持續地盤點，看看還有哪些需要的技術再納進來，大概跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分的話，我想我們可能也是要加速，因為畢竟是核心關鍵技術，再來，那個領域如果有些新增的話，可能也再提供給我們辦公室，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：好。第二個部分是想要講兒少科普的問題，因為STEM這個領域其實是未來的世代非常重要的一件事情，但是我們這個領域其實男性是比較多的，女性是比較少的，從這張表我們可以看到，大概只有四分之一的女性是在這個領域，我們其實有辦了很多的兒少科普活動，但是我看到我們的人數上，以國際女科學日來看，人數是越來越少。那我想要先請教，第一個問題是我們參與人次的計算、評估標準110年是用「觸及」，111年和112年都是用「觀看次數」，這個衡量標準是不一樣的，所以事後的review其實是很難去瞭解到底影響性是什麼，所以這個部分是不是未來可以用同一個評估基礎，讓我們比較瞭解，知道這個真實的狀況是什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝，我倒沒有注意到這個有改變，我們把它一致化……"],["張委員雅琳：對，把它一致化。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這樣才會有一個曲線出來……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯、沒錯。"],["吳主任委員政忠：的確沒錯，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。第二個部分，我看就算是我們就111年相比，我們的實際觀看人次也是下降的，就像剛剛吳委員關注的科普列車，我看了一下我們一整年，第一個是觀看人數逐年下降，第二個是我們其實花了大概七千多萬去做這些科普的活動，可是我們整體的人次大概只有到三萬多人，這樣子的預算分配，投資報酬率似乎有點低，可不可以說明一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，這個分類因為是單一個活動，應該是把整個女性兒少科普活動加起來，那個人次才會比較正確。"],["張委員雅琳：那現在你們有人次嗎？這些女性與兒少科普活動你們現在有人次嗎？"],["葉處長至誠：報告委員，對於每個專案，我們有統計的人數，所有的專案合起來，我們還沒有這樣子的數字。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這些詳細的數字可不可以提到我們辦公室，讓我們去瞭解……"],["葉處長至誠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要說的是這個觀看次數的話，可能現在沒有正確的數字，是比較有點失準，但是以臺灣科學日一年是有50萬人次，所以我覺得這個我們可以來看數字之後再做些詳細的討論。","再來，我們現在雖然做的很多活動是針對女高中生，科學日是針對女高中生，但是我想要問的第一個問題是因為選組高中就已經做不同的選擇了，就已經選社會組或自然組了，如果我們想要爭取更多的STEM人才，我們是不是應該要再往下提，讓他到國中小就開始啟發這個興趣，我們才有可能未來鼓勵女性往這個方向去前進，我們可不可以做這樣子的規劃？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝，這個完全正確，我想我們朝這個方向來努力，應該是很小就要來。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。再來，第二個問題延伸的是，在這些人次上我們有沒有針對小孩的意見回饋？也就是說，他看完這個展之後有沒有什麼樣的回饋？他覺得太深或太淺、他覺得要怎麼調整，我們有沒有蒐集相關的意見呢？"],["葉處長至誠：報告委員，我們事實上都有在做問卷調查，例如場域開放、科普列車等等，還有辦一系列的……"],["張委員雅琳：我指的是針對兒少。"],["葉處長至誠：對，這些活動其實都是針對高中、國中、國小，所以也有涵蓋兒少方面。"],["張委員雅琳：但聽起來是量化，有質化的研究去瞭解他們到底覺得這個內容怎麼樣嗎？我們才能做更精進的修正，因為我們的目標是他，是不是有相關的質化研究？"],["葉處長至誠：有，因為在他們的問卷裡面都有一些回饋的意見。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以都有相對應的修正，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：委員的這個提醒滿重要的，如果當事人是小朋友，他的回應會比較接近真實，這個我們來努力看看能不能找一些小朋友來看看他們的感覺。"],["張委員雅琳：如果現在有做一些意見回饋的話，我也想要瞭解一下他們所提的意見，然後我們的修正計畫、應對計畫是什麼，這部分可不可以提資料到我們辦公室？因為既然已經有了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解，可以。"],["張委員雅琳：下一個問題是有關於ChatGPT，我就直接講幾個重點，我們的TAIDE計畫其實需要非常大量的資料，我們現在有足夠的資料去訓練這個大型的語言模組嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：目前的時間滿趕的，只有一年，第一個7B的模型就是政府公部門的一些資料，包括中央社的一些新聞、whatever，也就是有版權的，我們就先訓練。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。我想問一下，它有一個一致的標準嗎？因為政府的資料也是各自上傳自己的資料，可能標準是不一的，那這樣子好用嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們是儘量去用，但如果它沒有電子格式化，當然就不能用了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們現在的資料量……"],["吳主任委員政忠：目前應該是有，7B的模型訓練出來是可以讓業界或政府單位當作一個初步的basic engine。"],["張委員雅琳：之前有提到4月會釋出一個7B的可商用版本，第一個，這個時程有改變嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該沒有變。"],["張委員雅琳：第二個，因為ChatGPT也在做這件事情，我們如何跟ChatGPT競爭呢？我們如何吸引企業來使用？"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上企業一定會用我們的，因為我們是繁體中文，然後它的一些理解是臺灣的culture，企業base on這個東西再去發展，比如銀行業就會更貼近臺灣的一些生活。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分我們會持續追蹤使用的狀況。再來是這個領域的最後一個問題，政府提倡百工百業用AI，對不對？我們在哪一個產業是比較有競爭力的？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們臺灣……"],["張委員雅琳：我想可能在半導體或是醫療產業是相對有競爭力，那政府會怎麼樣來協助他們呢？有哪些協助的計畫？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我想半導體產業本來就有競爭力，其他像是精準醫療、健康、機械、whatever，這些都是我們所謂5+2產業創新裡面的一些重點，我們會儘快來做，但事實上生成式AI不只是在製造業，對服務業也很重要。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但這是我們最關鍵的幾個領域，到底我們會有什麼相關的計畫來協助？所以我們也可以再來討論一下有沒有相關的協助計畫來支持他們。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一個部分，去年Meta已經發表70B的版本，我們接下來也有規劃一個70B的……"],["吳主任委員政忠：17。"],["張委員雅琳：70吧？"],["吳主任委員政忠：先13，然後再來……"],["張委員雅琳：我們現在正在開發，對不對？正在開發參數量……"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是，這是base on Meta的Llama 2，然後我們再進階拿來教繁體中文。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，我理解了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個必須要用非常非常大的超級電腦。"],["張委員雅琳：我懂，接下來就是要講超級電腦，因為超級電腦在世界上大家的競爭非常快速，對不對？我們在2018年的時候是20名，可是我們到2023年已經掉到86名，相對我們鄰近的韓國在前50名就有3台，所以我想知道我們今年預計要完成16 PF，對不對？這是今年一定會完成嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們主任說今年會完成。"],["張委員雅琳：一定會完成，預計何時到300 PF呢？因為世界發展已經非常快了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，以臺灣的size不可能去競爭那麼大的，但是我們運用頭腦跟外面的結合，事實上我們在晶創臺灣計畫裡面，應該是未來五年計畫會到200到300 PF。"],["張委員雅琳：所以大概什麼時候會完成？"],["張主任朝亮：我們目前的規劃是拉比較長期一點，因為這樣我們可以跟上每個世代最新的GPU，規劃是五年。"],["張委員雅琳：因為超級電腦的運算力對於很多領域的發展都非常重要，所以這部分我們可能還是要加緊，我也想要多瞭解，之後我們可以再討論是不是需要投入更多的經費，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","在羅廷瑋委員質詢之前，我先宣告一下，等一下本席質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。","請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.25221875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.52534375,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.719093750000003,"end":60.46034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.54221875,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.18596875,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.41596875,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.70221875,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.19784375,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.55471875,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.64659375000001,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.09784375000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.11034375000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.65221875,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.01471875000001,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.20409375,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.14471875,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.86159375,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":141.62909375,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.94971875000002,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.91034375,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":153.96471875,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.54596875000001,"end":171.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.52409375000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":171.19409375,"end":173.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.43846875,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.42971875,"end":176.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.08784375000002,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.49284375000002,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.57721875000001,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.68159375000002,"end":184.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.22159375,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.10659375,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.72659375,"end":193.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.06409375,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.09784375,"end":193.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.18221875,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.99221875,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.00909375,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.02596875,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.35034375,"end":197.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.18471875,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.16346875000002,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":212.41971875000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.71846875000003,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.49409375000002,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":240.87096875,"end":254.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":254.69159375,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.57159375000003,"end":269.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.96346875,"end":271.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.41034375000004,"end":273.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.30471875,"end":276.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.79784375,"end":279.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.76784375,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.57721875000004,"end":290.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.66971875,"end":287.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":288.50909375000003,"end":289.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.89284375,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.99534375,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":315.54284375000003,"end":319.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.93034375,"end":332.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.35221875,"end":321.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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GPT以及我小孩非常關注的一個叫做兒少科普的部分"},{"start":50.25,"end":77.48,"text":"還有這個太空中心的發展所以我們接下來先來講這個國家的關鍵技術就是說在去年的時候我們有公告22項國家的核心關鍵技術對那這個領域呢就是大概在涵蓋了這個國防農業半導體太空以及資通安全那接下來就是說我們在因為在台灣的IC產業其實製造技術是領先全球那我們在這個台灣的市佔率呢"},{"start":78.66,"end":104.531,"text":"﹝討論﹞"},{"start":105.632,"end":127.286,"text":"我們去年12月5日公布以後我們說3個月會做滾動修正那事實上部會他們已經盤查就是說針對我們公布的5個大領域事實上部會應該是沒有新的修正但是我們也在看看他有那個技術以後他還要去找一些"},{"start":128.72,"end":128.96,"text":"執行計劃與執行人。"},{"start":138.928,"end":159.98,"text":"目前是沒有新的提出來那我們有一個top-down的是說我們有在看有一些技術也必須要再進來比如說一些生醫生技的一些技術對我了解那我想要知道說這個進度還是在因為3月已經過了一半嘛所以大概是在4月嗎4月會提供給大家讓大家知道有哪些是關鍵核心技術嗎"},{"start":160.7,"end":163.761,"text":"所以聽起來是時程會再延後嗎?沒有,3月沒有延後"},{"start":176.587,"end":177.427,"text":"公佈的時間是什麼時候?"},{"start":194.176,"end":198.72,"text":"目前沒有要去做調整的部分那時候講3個月指的是這件事情那第二波的部分因為依照規定我們每年至少要開一次國家衡議會所以現在整體各部會就是在持續的盤點看看還有哪些需要的技術在納進來大概就跟委員報告"},{"start":212.472,"end":239.146,"text":"好那這個部分的話我想我們可能也是要加速啦因為畢竟是核心關鍵技術啦那再來就是說那個領域如果有些新增的話可能也再提供給我們辦公室好不好好那再來第二個部分是想要講這個兒少科普的問題就是說其實因為STEM這個領域其實是未來的世代了是非常重要的一件事情但是我們其實這個領域男性是比較多的女性是比較少的孔子張表我們可以看到大概只有四分之一的女性是在這個領域"},{"start":241.199,"end":265.615,"text":"我們其實有辦了很多的兒少科普活動但是我看到就是我們的人數像以國際女科學節科學日它的人數是越來越少那我想要先請教第一個問題是說我們的參與人次的計算評估標準110年是用觸及11年跟112年都是用觀看次數那這個衡量標準是不一樣的所以事後的review其實是很難去了解到底影響性是什麼"},{"start":266.656,"end":266.897,"text":"主席"},{"start":284.842,"end":307.924,"text":"我們來把它一致化這樣才會有一個曲線出來沒錯沒錯謝謝謝謝那第二個部分就是說因為我看這個就算是我們從11年相比我們的實際的觀看人次也是下降的然後我們的整體就像那個剛剛吳委員關注的這個科普列車我們一整年我看了一下第一個是觀看人數逐年下降第二個是我們其實"},{"start":308.985,"end":309.585,"text":"現在你們有人次嗎?"},{"start":338.399,"end":364.738,"text":"這些女性跟兒少科普通你們現在有人次嗎?包括委員我們對於每個專案我們有統計的人數所有的專案合起來這個我們還沒有這樣子的數字那這些詳細的數字可不可以提到我們辦公室讓我們去了解因為我想要說的是說因為觀看這個次數的話可能也許現在沒有正確的數字是比較有點失準但是以科教那種國際台灣科學日他們一年是有50萬人次所以我覺得這個是我們可以來看數字之後再做些詳細的討論"},{"start":366.079,"end":393.461,"text":"接下來就是說我們現在雖然做的很多活動是針對女高中生那個科學日是對女高中生但是我想要問的第一個問題是說到底我們因為在選組高中就已經做不同的選擇了就已經是社會組跟自然組了如果我們想要爭取更多的STEM人才我們是不是應該要再往下提讓他到國中小就開始啟發他這個興趣我們才有可能未來鼓勵女性往這個方向去前進我們可不可以做這樣子的規劃"},{"start":395.563,"end":415.561,"text":"謝謝 這個完全正確 我想我們朝這個方向來努力應該是很小就要來謝謝喔 那再來就是說第二個問題延伸的是我們這些人次上面我們有沒有去針對於小孩的意見回饋就是說他看完這個展之後他有沒有什麼樣的回饋 他覺得太深或太淺他覺得要怎麼調整 我們沒有收集相關的意見呢來"},{"start":418.342,"end":446.095,"text":"報告委員事實上我們都有在做問卷調查例如說那個場域開放科普列車等等我指的是針對於兒少對這些活動其實都是針對高中國中國小所以也都涵蓋在兒少的範圍但是聽起來是量化有質化的研究去了解他們到底覺得這個內容怎麼樣因為我們才能夠去做更精進的修正嘛因為我們的目標是他那是不是有相關的質化研究有因為他們的問卷裡面他們都有一些回饋的意見"},{"start":447.55,"end":465.704,"text":"所以都有相對應的修正是嗎?委員的提醒應該蠻重要就是說如果針對那個當事人就是小朋友他的回應會比較接近真實那這個我們來努力看看能不能找一些小朋友來"},{"start":467.066,"end":493.048,"text":"我想如果現在有做一些意見回饋的話我也想要了解一下這些他們所提的意見那我們的修正計劃我們應對的計劃是什麼這個會被提資料到我們辦公室因為既然已經有了嘛那再來下一個問題就是有關於CHAT GPT那這個CHAT GPT我想我就直接講幾個重點就是說我們因為CHAT GPT需要非常不是CHAT GPT我們的台達計劃其實是非常需要大量的資料那我們現在有足夠的資料來去訓練我們這個這個大型的語言模組嗎"},{"start":494.403,"end":521.652,"text":"我們目前就是因為那個也蠻時間蠻趕的只有1年那第一個那個7B的模型就是政府公部門的一些資料包括中央社的一些新聞whatever也就是有版權的我們就把它先訓練好那我想問一下它有一個一致的標準嗎因為政府的資料其實也是非標準各自自己上傳各自自己的資料可能標準是不一的那這樣子好用嗎"},{"start":522.833,"end":539.675,"text":"我們是盡量去用,當然如果他沒有這個電子格式化當然就不能用目前應該是有,TB那個模型訓練出來是可以讓業界或者是政府單位來當作初步的一個basic engine"},{"start":540.307,"end":557.199,"text":"所以因為剛剛之前有提到就是說4月會去釋出一個7B的可商用版本那第一個就是說這個時程有改變嗎?應該沒有變那第二個就是說因為其實CheckGPT也在做這件事情嘛那我們如何跟CheckGPT做競爭呢?我們如何吸引企業來使用?"},{"start":557.859,"end":585.496,"text":"我們事實上企業一定會用我們因為我們是用班底中文然後他的一些理解是臺灣的culture那企業based on這個東西他就會發展他比如說銀行業他就會更貼近臺灣的一些生活好那我想這東西我們最後就來持續的追蹤使用的狀況那再來第三個最後一個問題這個領域的最後一個問題就是說百工百業政府提倡要百工百業用AI對不對那我們在哪一個產業是比較有競爭力的"},{"start":588.837,"end":589.497,"text":"吳政忠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":616.627,"end":618.148,"text":"昨年Meta已經發表了70倍"},{"start":648.22,"end":672.894,"text":"70B的這個版本我們接下來也有規劃一個70B的我們現在正在開發嘛對不對?正在開發參數量那個是Based on Meta的Lama2然後它有進階我們再拿來去教中文 版體中文那我理解了那那個必須要用非常大的超級電腦"},{"start":673.854,"end":673.874,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":704.074,"end":724.532,"text":"我跟委員報告以臺灣的尺寸不可能去跟他競爭那麼大的但是我們運用我們的頭腦跟外面的結合事實上我們在金創臺灣計畫裡面有應該是未來五年計畫會到是200到300PF"},{"start":727.875,"end":733.661,"text":"我目前的規劃是把它拉得比較長期一點因為這樣的話我們會跟上每個世代的最新的GPU"},{"start":745.913,"end":770.776,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135e351594f24e1b0bed1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a60cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:07:27 - 10:20:39","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:20:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:07:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時7分）謝謝主席。有請邱部長還有海巡署周署長，也就是我們海委會的副主委。"],["主席：有請邱部長還有海巡署。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：署長早。本席也要針對海軍跟海巡在海上執法的時候要如何分工這個議題跟兩位探討。剛剛我在報告裡面看得很清楚，有關於海軍支援海巡海域執法方面，我們還是堅守海巡對海巡、海軍對海軍這個最大的原則，剛剛在報告裡面我們有看到這個部分。本席有看到一份有關2月27日的報導，中共有三艘海警船在2月27日的時候，直接進犯我國東部海域，媒體第一時間報導，當下沒有海巡艦艇前往監控，國防部就緊急派出寧陽號前往監控。當然這個部分引起了很大的批判跟批評，為什麼海巡署沒有派艦艇過去？當然我也看到海巡署後續的澄清，說那一天有派南投艦前去，而且也有通報海軍。我有看到一位中華戰略學會的資深研究員張競對這部分做了很大的批判，他認為應該是白色海軍對白色海軍、執法艦艇對執法艦艇、海巡對海巡，海軍派諾克斯級艦攔阻中共的海警船，我們就是把遊戲規則搞壞了。這個說法請問部長、署長，你們同意嗎？你們認為這是在破壞遊戲規則嗎？"],["邱部長國正：從頭到尾我們沒有主動過，那一天不講我們派出海軍對它那個東西，我們平常就固定在不管海峽、東北或是南端，我們都有派我們的海軍偵巡艦在那邊，回來遇到了當然就出面把它給驅離，並沒有好像講海軍對到它了、要來處理，這個是誤會，我們絕對不會破壞一般的國際規則。"],["羅委員美玲：是，那一件事件的整個過程可以清楚說明一下嗎？還是署長針對這件事情……因為你們有被說第一時間都沒有去。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，報告委員，我們後來有發一個聲明稿。整個臺灣周遭的海域，每天都有固定的海軍偵巡艦跟海巡的偵巡艦，在不同的位置、不同的時間。那一天東部海域是屬於海軍的62.9支隊，也就是168艦隊所屬管轄的範圍，它那一天派的偵巡艦艇是諾克斯艦。我為什麼會這麼熟悉？因為我幹過62.9支隊的支隊長，所以我瞭解整個作業流程。外界所傳的這個不是事實，因為這三艘船從花蓮正東開始進來的時候，它一直都沒有進入24海里鄰接區的線，所以它這個訊息是錯誤的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以它整個訊息是錯誤的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外，在一個禮拜之前，國防部就完全掌握這三艘船在我們的東南海域執行操演，所以我們一直都有掌握這三艘船，一直到那一天。"],["羅委員美玲：所以並不是媒體所報導的，你們完全都沒有派任何艦艇？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然不是，當時我們的南投艦在釣魚臺水域負責偵巡任務，海軍跟我們在海上互相通聯之後，瞭解這三艘船會靠近24海里的時候，海軍諾克斯艦……這就是62.9支隊巡防的區域，它當時就在那附近，在那邊採取併航監控。我們同時調南投艦從釣魚臺海域東北角直接往下開，接替這個任務，後面當我們的船到現場，跟海軍的諾克斯交接之後，我們就一路護送它從彭佳嶼海域轉西北離開我們的禁限制海域。但是在這中間它切了東北角跟西北這個航線的時候，早上有一段時間曾經短暫進入我們的24海里水……"],["羅委員美玲：這個過程當中都沒有任何衝突？"],["周副主任委員美伍：都沒有，完全沒有，而且我們完全是在併航監控，同時……"],["羅委員美玲：後續我有看到報導說海巡其實也有廣播驅離，這個部分都還是有。"],["周副主任委員美伍：全部都有，它一旦進入我們的水域，我們一定按照標準作業程序廣播驅離。那一天我們同時立刻處理，在臺北港已經備變了一艘宜蘭艦，我們的處置是它一旦進入24海里，宜蘭艦立刻從臺北港出來，我們就是臺北港的宜蘭艦加上南投艦，一併加上海軍的濟陽級艦，可以一路併航監控它，一直到它脫離我們的水域為止，所以這個是那一天整個的實情，而且這個實情如果說要掌握，我們跟海軍簽有海上支援協定，所以它很早就已經把這些資訊告知我們。"],["羅委員美玲：所以一切都在我們的掌握當中。"],["周副主任委員美伍：所以它怎麼活動我們完全瞭解，聯二也都告訴我們它的活動。它那一天是在什麼樣的狀況下才會在那個水域？因為它是北邊的支隊，是下來演訓，所以我們全程都有掌握。這個資訊我相信學者也好、專家也好，他一定是片面的，不瞭解我們內部的作業程序，因為內部作業流程只有我們跟海軍會知道、國防部會知道、我們怎麼樣採取處置，這些都是日常每天都會遭遇的。","您剛剛講到軍事的跟非軍事的，目前我們跟國防部都律定得非常清楚，只要是屬於軍艦或者從事跟軍事有關活動的，是由國防部的軍艦對應；如果是非軍艦、公務船舶、特殊船舶，或者是一些民間的特殊船舶帶有不同任務的，譬如說訓練艦、海洋偵測艦、海洋調查船，類似這些船隻如果平常是在一個不敏感的水域，這種時候國防部跟我們會有個溝通，一定是海巡去處理。但如果今天這些船是跟著它的軍事船團在一起，或者在某一個特定水域、特定時間在某一個地方出現，國防部如果認定這個水域、時間是敏感的，國防部也會派軍艦處理。海巡的船體一定是在24浬內對應，採取併航、平行航行監控的作為，以上特別跟委員說明。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝署長非常清楚的說明，所以以後遇到類似這種狀況，我也希望有關單位要像剛剛這樣子，第一時間跳出來清楚說明。好，再來，剛剛有提到當天我們有派南投艦，請問一下南投艦的噸數是多少？"],["周副主任委員美伍：600噸。"],["羅委員美玲：那一天沒有出現任何衝突，可是那一天這三艘海警船包括3,450噸級的2303、2304，還有3,980噸級的2305，我想請教一下，如果雙方真的有所衝突的時候，我們在這個量級上或戰力上是不是有很大的落差？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我要跟委員特別聲明，最近有很多報導都說是不是噸位的影響，或者是它有船堅砲利、它的武力會比我們強，但我想我們的重點是在執法，我們如何執法才是個重點，它如果違反規定，即使它有再多的大砲跟火箭，我們還是要執法，只要它違反了我們中華民國的規定，我們當然要執法，這個跟船的大小無關。在過去這麼長的時間內，我們在海上的行動不是單一的行動，海巡對應這些船隻的時候，海軍的艦艇一直在旁邊，海軍這些對應的艦艇有相當的對應的武力，當然我們還有很多岸置的設施，這些岸置設施對每一個目標，我相信都有在監控、都有在管控。"],["羅委員美玲：所以海軍永遠還是會站在海巡的背後，當我們的後盾。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["羅委員美玲：因為我們有看到像噸數，說實在真的是非常的不對稱，而且我們知道像中國的海警船大部分都是他們的海軍艦隊退役之後再改裝編入海警艦隊的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員補充報告一下，它不是退役以後，他們是把現用的艦艇甚至還在造船廠生產的軍艦直接改裝成海警船。"],["羅委員美玲：直接改裝，並不是舊的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：也有舊的，但是就是它現用的艦艇，不是淘汰的艦艇，他們是直接把現用的軍艦例如053、054及056，其中有3,000噸級的，有4,000噸級的，有1,400多也就是1,500噸級，最多的是就是056型有22艘。現在據我們所掌握的資料，大概有34艘這樣由軍艦直接轉換為海警船的。中國大陸從2019年開始，把國家海洋局的海警單位直接轉換為在中央軍委會指揮之下的單位之後，就有一個很大的改變。這樣大的改變，我相信是為了便宜它未來可能要在海上遭遇到很多剛剛很多委員都談到的灰色地帶的執法問題，它覺得它的海警能量可能是不足的，所以它在2019年把海警單位改編到中央軍委會之下，才會有這麼大的一個變動，這個變動也是我們一直都在關注的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以其實中共所謂的海警艦艇，其實已經是帶有海軍戰力了，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：它的艦砲、它的一些武器系統也是有拆除的，保留的最大口徑應該是76砲，76砲的口徑已經很大了。當然我相信他們這樣一個應處作為也是為了因應未來他們想要擴大維權，在南海、在東海、在周邊海域執法之所需。我們最近可以看到很多不管是在菲律賓海域或在釣魚台附近海域，他們出動的大型海警船都是類似這樣的船隻，大概有130艘左右，其中有34艘，我想那個比例大概可以占到30%左右，是由軍艦改裝的，這個都是我們未來必須要面對的威脅跟挑戰。"],["羅委員美玲：是，非常地辛苦。我相信海巡也好，海軍也好，真的是非常地辛苦，尤其中國最近對海峽中線，表示不存在，那等同打破了過去的平衡面。所以我在想未來我方的海巡、海軍跟空軍可能在執法方面都會非常地辛苦，而且更加的複雜，大家加油！謝謝！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。不過我們還是希望海巡相關單位，因為最近事情比較多，不要有過度樂觀或者避重就輕的說法，因為這樣好像也跟之前的說法有一些矛盾。在這裡也請海巡把一些詳細的資料提供給本委員會，我們再提出一些相關的要求。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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10:18:43","影片長度":"00:11:11","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":671,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:18:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:07:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時7分）謝謝主席。有請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。恭喜你成為首任的環境部部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：環境部升格是一件大事，但是你們的責任也更重大了，首先本席要請教，在這一次的蘇丹紅事件當中，環境部對於工業原料、化學物質──蘇丹紅，有什麼角色或有沒有做了什麼樣的事情？蘇丹紅是不是你們的化學物質管理項目之一？"],["薛部長富盛：蘇丹色素是我們列管的27種、34項毒性化學物質裡面的一種，禁止加入到任何食品。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼它禁止加入到任何食品？"],["薛部長富盛：因為它屬於第四類的毒化物。"],["王委員育敏：因為蘇丹色素是第四級的毒性化學物質，它含有有毒物質，所以被列管，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以它不應該加到食物當中。本席請問你，蘇丹色素的毒性跟咖啡、茶可以類比嗎？可以是同等級嗎？咖啡跟茶是你們要列管的物質嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：王委員講的是另外一個分類，它是致癌食品的分類，它是屬於第三類，是依據國際IRCA的標準，所以這兩個事實上是不同分類的……"],["王委員育敏：不應該這樣類比，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["王委員育敏：就有毒物質來講，蘇丹色素就是有毒物質，是你們列管的項目，但咖啡跟茶不是，所以不應該混為一談。這件事情透過今天我們跟環境部的討論，要給外界一個很明確的訊息，絕對不是像行政院食安辦主任這樣魚目混珠、混為一談。我覺得這樣子是不對的，是就是，不是就不是，蘇丹色素確確實實就是有毒的化學物質，而且列為第四級。"],["薛部長富盛：禁止，是。"],["王委員育敏：本席要請教你，關於這次的蘇丹色素，你們有沒有去查我們的進口量？既然是你們列管，它的進口量及流向，這次你們有沒有強化去稽查？"],["薛部長富盛：有，跟王委員報告，事實上我們都去查了，去年進口總共有39筆……"],["王委員育敏：39筆？"],["薛部長富盛：有4家進口，進口量才101克，其中使用量是41克。"],["王委員育敏：使用到哪些方面去？"],["薛部長富盛：實驗室或者一些染色劑，所以在臺灣都沒有把蘇丹色素加到食品或其他的部分。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["薛部長富盛：這邊也跟委員報告，食安五環中，環境部負責化學雲，化學雲是10個部會53個系統都在裡面，自從這個建立之後，臺灣就沒有再發生化工原料加到食品的系統性案子。當然這次蘇丹紅的案子算是在境外，他是把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉內，變成原料或者食品進到國內。"],["王委員育敏：瞭解，但是本席希望要求環境部的是，中國大陸有這樣子不良的商人做這樣的事情，我們臺灣當然也要做進一步防制，防止有人把這些有毒的工業原料添加到食品中，希望環境部要把這一塊守好。另外，本席發現還有一個管理漏洞，就是它沒有列在你們的毒性化學物質上，它是工業用料，但有可能會流向食品。譬如2015年發生的在胡椒粉當中加入工業用碳酸鎂，碳酸鎂現在是不是在你們的管制範圍？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，其實我們陸陸續續公告到這一塊的時候，的確有特別討論過，因為這一塊跟那個合法的食品添加物是同品項，就是合法食品添加物也有碳酸鎂，如果身分上沒有取得衛福部許可，那它就不是合法食品添加物，但是東西是一樣的……"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["謝署長燕儒：東西是一樣的，所以在管理面上，經濟部這邊會申報，然後我們會去勾稽看這些原料會不會流到食品這邊。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在有在管理、有在勾稽嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：有，有，這個都列在……"],["王委員育敏：這就是本席要求的，因為我發現之前爆發過食安風暴的這些工業原料，它的毒性並沒有到達你們的管制範圍，但是這一類卻又變成是最可能被業者拿來添加在食品中的，所以本席要求你們一定要互相勾稽，因為現在這些食品會產生問題，風險就在於如果主管機關沒有互相勾稽，一旦有漏洞，一些不良業者有洞就會鑽，他就有機可乘，他就會違法，因為工業原料都是比較便宜的，而食品級的都比較貴，他就會從中賺取利差，所以本席要求這部分你們一定要持續強化，好不好？"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["王委員育敏：守護我們的食安，環境部也有相對的責任。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個本席關心的是有關於SRF的議題，我想涂權吉委員也非常關心，他剛剛也有質詢到這些議題，本席看到我們現在所有的管制作為，坦白講是非常鬆散的，所以之前才會爆發以經濟部為主導，認為可以增加發電量、可以設置，然後經濟部就一直往前設，結果環境部好像也沒有辦法阻止經濟部。以桃園的案例來看，其實就是先斬後奏，居民完全沒有任何可以說不的權利，而部會之間，好像環境部也沒有辦法要求它，這都不用做評估嗎？譬如在桃科附近1公里民眾這麼密集的地區，它想要連蓋三廠，這樣子的東西都不需要把關，只要經濟部說很好，可以增加我們的發電量，我們就往前衝，是這樣子嗎，部長？"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，事實上不全然是經濟部是目的事業主管機關……"],["王委員育敏：你們也是？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，環境部是負責環評的工作，但開發單位……"],["王委員育敏：但他現在都不需要環評啊！"],["薛部長富盛：縣市政府也可能是開發單位，以桃園桃科這個案例來看，事實上桃園市政府是開發單位，它是進駐在整個桃科園區裡面，所以桃園市政府有權利決定，包括要不要核發許可證。"],["王委員育敏：對，所以我們看到在桃園，前任鄭文燦市長贊成，然後就核發，到張善政市長，他就不同意第三廠，所以前後任市長態度不一致。那中央呢？中央的環境部可以幫人民做什麼樣的把關？因為這個SRF發電廠之前爆發出排放出來的東西可能是有毒的，燒的東西也是亂燒一通，前面也沒有分類，也沒有一個詳查的機制，本席比較想要要求或瞭解的是，環境部可以肩負起什麼樣的監理責任，包括你們之前還對外說你們要開始公告更嚴謹的作業辦法，公告了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟王委員報告，以往環境部對SRF基本上是從末端管制……"],["王委員育敏：就是管它排放出來的部分，但前面都已經燒了，這個太消極了。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們現在修法要把SRF做產品分類，從源頭就開始分類，對於不適合當SRF材料的就要把它剔除掉，未來產品端能夠做到源頭控管之後，相信後端在使用就可以減少現在……"],["王委員育敏：沒錯，本席要要求就是前端的源頭控管，這其實是最重要的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們現在在做。"],["王委員育敏：前端源頭的控管，7月你們曾經公告三項修正草案，這三項修正草案，包括公私場所固定污染源要符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料、公私場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例及成分標準，還有鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準三項修正草案，你們是要管制它排放的戴奧辛，但這個部分公告之後有開始上路了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：公告之後有一段時間……"],["王委員育敏：已經一段時間了，去年7月，過半年了，還沒有上路？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，去年預告的那個，因為現在SRF打算分級，所以我們會再加嚴，目前的進度就是上半年會預告，然後下半年會把相關辦法訂出來，我們就是……"],["王委員育敏：還要再拖1年？"],["張司長順欽：不是拖，我們現在重點就是在管制的過程，除了原先的排放標準加嚴之外，污染防制設備也根據材料的不同會有一些規範，這跟去年預告的版本不一樣，所以需要一點時間，下半年會出來。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望這個部分要加快速度。另外，你們重新公告之後，那以前舊廠已經設的這一些，可能就不符合你的標準，你要怎麼去輔導他們？"],["薛部長富盛：我們會給他一段時間去改善設施，之後就要按照新的法規來執行。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為我發現現在你們對於SRF製造商的管制，一個是鬆散，一個是你們網站上公告的資料，有點零零落落，就是自己填，然後很多其實都是空白的，這部分我要求一定要加嚴管制……"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["王委員育敏：因為國外可以做得到的，我相信我們臺灣也可以做得到，但我們不能做半套，或者是做的四不像，然後名為好的再生能源發電廠，但結果排放出來可能是對整個環境又造成第二度的傷害，這個是絕對不允許的。部長，你新上任，希望你用你的專業跟魄力，把這一塊好好整頓起來，讓SRF將來真的是既可以發電，又可以幫助我們做部分的減碳，這才是真正的目標，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來我們邀請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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克使用到哪些方面去實驗室或者一些染色劑所以都沒有加到在臺灣都沒有把蘇丹設施加到食品或者其他的部分在這邊跟委員報告事實上自從石安魯環環境部負責化學營化學營是10個部會53個系統都在那裡面是"},{"start":202.193,"end":219.054,"text":"自從那個建立之後是台灣就沒有再發生化工顏料加到食品的系統性的案子這一次當然蘇丹紅的案子事實上是在境外他是把他蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面變成"},{"start":220.58,"end":222.302,"text":"原料或食品進入大國內"},{"start":242.242,"end":263.773,"text":"但是呢本席發現還有一個漏洞是什麼沒有在你們的毒性化學物質的管理但是他是工業用料有可能還是流向食品比如說2015年發生的這個在胡椒粉當中加入工業用的碳酸鎂那碳酸鎂現在是不是在你們的管制的範圍"},{"start":265.844,"end":280.815,"text":"報告委員這一部分其實我們在陸陸續續公告到這一塊的時候我們有特別討論過那這一塊就是說它跟那個合法的食品天下或是同品項就是合法食品天下也有碳酸酶"},{"start":281.575,"end":298.114,"text":"對那如果他身份上沒有去取得衛福部的許可的話他就不是合法實名加護是但是東西是一樣對東西是一樣所以我們的管理面就從經濟部經濟部這邊他也會有申報是我們會去勾結說這些會不會流到實名上"},{"start":299.127,"end":327.369,"text":"你們現在有在管理嗎有在勾雞嗎這個就是本席要求的因為我發現這個之前爆發過食安風暴這些工業原料因為他毒性沒有到達你的管制範圍但是這一類卻又變成是最可能就是被業者拿來添加的所以本席的要求就是你們一定要互相勾雞因為現在我們這些食品產生的問題真的是風險就在於說如果主管機關你沒有互相勾雞有漏洞那"},{"start":328.51,"end":342.878,"text":"有些不良業者有動他就賺他就有有機可乘他就會違法因為工業原料都是比較便宜的食品節都比較貴他就從當中去賺他的利差所以本期要求這個部分你們一定還要持續強化好不好"},{"start":344.119,"end":365.178,"text":"守護我們的食安這個環境部也有相對的責任另外一個本期要關心的是有關於SRF的議題我想我們圖圈級委員也非常的關心他剛剛也有質詢那這個議題本期就看到了我們現在所有的管制作為坦白講非常的鬆散所以之前才會爆發以經濟部為主導他認為可以增加我們的發電量然後呢我們可以"},{"start":370.763,"end":381.524,"text":"而設然後呢經濟部就一直往前設結果環境部好像沒有辦法去阻止經濟部比如說以桃園的案例來看的話他其實就是"},{"start":383.079,"end":401.675,"text":"他是先長後奏啊居民完全沒有任何可以說部的權利那在部會之間好像環境部你也沒有辦法去要求他那他都不用做評估嗎比如說在桃科他附近一公里然後就是有民眾這麼密集的區他想要連蓋三場"},{"start":402.876,"end":426.405,"text":"那這樣子的東西都不需要把關只要經濟部說很好增加我們的發電量那我們就往前衝是這樣子嗎部長給王育敏報告事實上不全然是經濟部是目的事業主管機關你們也是縣市政府可是環境部是負責環評的工作但是開發單位"},{"start":428.366,"end":449.398,"text":"事實上縣市政府也可能是開發單位比如說以桃園桃科這個案例事實上桃園市政府他是開發單位他進駐的是在他整個桃科園區裡面所以事實上桃園市政府他是有權利去決定包括要不要核發他的許可證"},{"start":450.178,"end":466.633,"text":"對所以桃園我們也看到嗎好前任市長鄭文燦市長他就贊成嗎就合法到張善任市長他就不同意第三場那所以前後任市長態度就不一致那在中央呢中央的這個環境部可以幫人民做什麼樣的把關因為我覺得"},{"start":468.314,"end":491.465,"text":"這個SRF它的發電廠之前被爆發就是它排放出來的它可能是有毒它燒的東西又亂燒一通前面也沒有分類也沒有一個想查的機制那本席比較想要要求或是了解就是我們環境部可以肩負起什麼樣的一個監理的責任包括你們之前還對外說欸你們要開始公告這個更嚴謹的作業辦法公告了嗎"},{"start":492.245,"end":507.39,"text":"王育敏報告以往環境部對SRF基本上是從末端管制你只管他排放出來有沒有但前面都已經燒了我們現在修法就是要把SRF做產品的分類"},{"start":508.51,"end":533.698,"text":"從源頭就開始分類對於不適合當SRF材料就要把它剔除掉所以未來的產品端能夠做源頭控管之後我相信後端再使用就可以減少沒錯本期要要求就是你前端的這個源頭控管其實是最重要的你前端源頭的控管你7月曾經公告就是三項的修正草案"},{"start":534.358,"end":562.978,"text":"那你這三項的修正草案包括公司場所固定污染源要什麼符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料然後公司場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例成分標準還有鍋爐空氣污染排放標準三項的修正草案你是要來管制它排放的代壓性但是這個部分你公告之後有開始上路了嗎公告之後有一段時間已經一段時間了去年7月"},{"start":564.642,"end":580.336,"text":"過半年了還沒有上路跟委員報告一下在去年預告那個因為之後現在那個SRF在分期所以我們會再加嚴那加嚴目前進度上半年會預告那下半年會把這個辦法出來"},{"start":580.976,"end":596.403,"text":"所以還要再拖一年欸不是拖我們現在重點就是說在管制的過程呢除了原先的那個排放標準加嚴之外呢我們污染防事設備根據材料的不同會有一些規範所以跟去年預告版本不一樣所以需要一點時間"},{"start":598.623,"end":613.008,"text":"我希望這一個部分要加快速度另外一個就是說你重新公告之後那以前舊廠已經設的這一些你要怎麼去輔導他們他可能就不符合你的標準給他一段時間去改善設施那之後就要按照新的法規來執行"},{"start":613.888,"end":633.662,"text":"好因為我發現現在你們對於SF製造商的這個管制一個是鬆散一個是你看這個網站上公告的資料就是也是有點哩哩啦啦就是自己填然後很多其實都是空白所以這個部分我要求一定要加嚴管制因為"},{"start":635.283,"end":657.601,"text":"國外可以做得到的我相信我們臺灣也可以做得到但我們不能做半套或者是做的是不像然後明為是好的再生能源發電廠但結果排放出來可是對於整個環境又造成第二度的傷害這個是絕對不允許的那我希望這個部長你新上任你用你的專業跟你的魄力把這一塊好好的整頓起來"},{"start":658.362,"end":669.533,"text":"然後讓這個srf他將來真的是既可以發電又可以幫助我們做部分的減碳那這個才是真正的目標好不好好謝謝王文謝謝好謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313513dbd910fd662c2d51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6befde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:06:57 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10:18:47","影片長度":"00:11:50","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":710,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:18:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:06:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時7分）主席，美麗的主席，本席要發言以前，我們兩位都是最美麗的主席，因為經濟委員會都是非常的和諧，而且大家都很好、都為國家，所以我看到電視，我也希望我們經濟委員會還是維持原來的和諧，為國家做事，好嗎？謝謝。來，請我們的部長。"],["主席：對不起，我請教一下，我哪裡沒有為國家做事？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，來……"],["主席：等等，楊委員您說明清楚吧！你剛剛這樣講，好像我沒有在為國家做事。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事……"],["主席：對呀！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是整個過程，因為我們都是召委，經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧，而且非常的尊重所有的委員……"],["主席：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括我在當主席的時候，我相信你在主持的時候也是如此。"],["主席：是，對啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以剛剛看到那個畫面讓我也很shock，因為在經濟委員會怎麼會如此？","主席，本席發言，請王部長。"],["主席：我還是要強調一下，因為剛剛張啓楷委員的質詢時間已經到，而且我認為他質詢的問題內容，其實有涉及國家安全，所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國家安全就不能私下了，怎麼可以私下？"],["主席：沒有，這涉及國家安全……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國家安全就是可講跟不可講……"],["主席：這涉及機密的問題，不宜在這裡做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個天然氣保存，本來就是最久可以放8天啊！"],["主席：天然氣保存可以問，但是你的前提是在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：放一個禮拜，這哪有什麼國安問題？"],["主席：前提是在打仗的情況之下，我認為這個涉及國家安全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：前提在打仗，這個是中油自己也公布啊！"],["張委員啓楷：國防部長都詢答過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好了現在……這沒有什麼國安問題啦……"],["張委員啓楷：……都做好準備了啊！"],["主席：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是這樣啦！"],["主席：我希望他私下來跟你做報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要尊重每一位發言的委員……"],["主席：我們都非常的尊重……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請尊重每一位發言的委員，現在是本席質詢，請主席裁示。"],["主席：好，我1分鐘……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼可以1分鐘，現在是我質詢，你已經叫我……"],["主席：因為我時間還沒有開始，如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：30秒也一樣啊！國安事件就沒有私底下的問題，對吧？"],["主席：那也請您互相尊重，因為我是主持人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以請你裁示……"],["主席：我是這個會議的主席。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經叫我上來，不然我要再下去囉！"],["主席：我是會議的主席，所以也請您尊重我的主持方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以你已經叫我，你已經請我上來了，我也給你鞠躬啦！"],["主席：好，我們請王部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，本席也再請李董事長一起。"],["主席：請李董事長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。部長，我想要邀請你跟李董事長一起，我們就實質來討論，因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口，所以大家都關心也是國安的焦點之一。但是經過我們的統計，臺灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%，但是能夠自主運輸的量，大概就只有10%，剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購，但國外的採購像戰爭等不可抗的因素，我們又怕不穩定。在這樣的情況之下，運輸的成本更是逐年的上漲，所以本席一直關心跟你討論過幾次，也就是請重視臺灣的LNG船隊的議題。我們有共同的一個目標，希望能夠朝向國氣國運，是不是？部長。等一下，先把原則講好，我們已經討論過幾次嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國氣國運，您曾經回答過，是朝這個方向。"],["王部長美花：這個部分委員提了，我們也跟航港局做很多的討論，這個裡面牽涉的問題確實是比較複雜一點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以也有在討論嘛？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以我再給你一個背景，因為中油目前我們是以賣方包運DES的方式去採購天然氣，除了有這樣的問題之外，在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出。我們也知道目前為止中油的樣態，我們也必須要全力的支持中油，因為沒有油連車也不能開了、氣也產生不出來，就什麼都會有問題啦！在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定，國氣國運我們必須要去實施。我也很歡喜、很高興，部長你當時承諾朝這個方向去努力，所以本席首先要請問的是，我們國氣國運的作業進程現在如何？請說明。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上中油公司跟航港局還有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有進展？"],["李董事長順欽：有，還有海運總處，就是航商所組成的海運總處，討論過很多很多的方案，當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承運，這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見，持續在收斂之中，我們最近會再開一次會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，持續收斂中，那就是有好的方向。"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們部長也在關心，我們會安排跟部長報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有朝這個目標，也給部長報告，因為部長也支持這個方向，當然本席也知道要增加這個是很不容易，但是我們不怕苦，所有的關鍵哪裡可以解套要好好去想辦法，為了國內的能源穩定，國氣國運是占了很重要的角色。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，國氣國運哪一種比較好，FOB還是DES那一種比較好，其實決定於很多條件啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，李董，你現在說到這裡，現在DES的方式是由賣方來包運，那是不是有可能考慮由買方來包運的方式呢？我們可以節省成本啊！有沒有可能？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上不一定節省成本，所以這個必須要釐清的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，有沒有可能？"],["李董事長順欽：像DES的話，前年俄烏戰爭之後運費暴漲、兵險暴漲，都是賣方吸收，所以哪一種好，其實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：董事長跟部長在這邊，我們討論到現在，為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全？因為有時候那邊暴漲、有時候那邊暴跌，所以我們要運用哪一種方式？針對李董事長剛才回答的，有一句話本席蠻贊同，就是到底用哪個方式可以讓我們節省，而且最重要是穩定我們的能源，這是最重要的，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是，跟委員報告，其實我們努力的方向就是多元分散、穩定供應，然後加上價格具有競爭性，替國家省錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然啦！但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是minus，而且很緊張啊！所以我們會想盡一切辦法，用什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案，朝這個方向趕快再去努力，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一直努力、一直努力，您請回座。","接下來本席要請教部長，我還是跟你討論一下電的問題，媒體說22號就要宣布嗎？會嗎？22號要宣布漲或不漲，漲要漲多少，是不是22號？"],["王部長美花：具體的時程，我還沒有掌握到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看到媒體報導的22號嗎？"],["王部長美花：我還沒有掌握到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還沒掌握到，那我告訴你，今天媒體報導說22號可能會宣布，那今天是幾號了？10幾號？"],["王部長美花：今天14號。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：14號，距離22號剩下一個禮拜，因為你當時告訴我們，審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來號會開，所以22號不是不可能。請教部長，主計總處說，如果把1,500億照去年度來撥補給台電，那我們國家沒有盈餘，他講的這個數字對嗎？一個國家撥補1,500億就沒有盈餘，那我們臺灣怎麼辦？不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛！所以請教部長，昨天你也回答本席，我也給你鼓勵、給你加油，我說不然我也願意親自到行政院去拜託。第一個方案就是行政院支援我們，這你也是列為第一個方案嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你現在談的，他們要支援我們多少？要撥補給台電多少？"],["王部長美花：目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還沒有定案，那你有跟行政院院長講過了嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，我們跟院裡面都有密切聯繫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有嗎？有跟行政院陳院長講過了嗎？"],["王部長美花：在審議之前，因為這裡面有很多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你跟陳院長講過了嗎？因為箭在弦上……"],["王部長美花：院長知道、院長知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長知道，那他支不支持這個1,500億撥補回來給台電呢？"],["王部長美花：院長支持撥補台電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：實質撥補，好、好……"],["王部長美花：相關的經費要估算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那經費呢？你給他報告多少？"],["王部長美花：經費的部分就是要精算。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教部長，你給他報告多少？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他給多少是他的事，你給他報告多少？"],["王部長美花：我們有提出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提出多少？"],["王部長美花：因為這個還是要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提出2,000億嗎？有沒有？"],["王部長美花：沒有，這還是要以院裡面最後的決定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！那是院的決定，就像你報給審議委員會，讓審議委員會去做決定啊！那我請問，你給院長報告多少？2,000億嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1,500億？"],["王部長美花：我們有跟院裡面做說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有1,500億啦？"],["王部長美花：我們當然是爭取到可以讓撥補的經費比較多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以也要看你提出多少啊？"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有報告1,500億嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有一些方案有報告，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有1,500億？"],["王部長美花：我們有報告一些方案，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有報告方案，一次不是1,500億？"],["王部長美花：相關的細節……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們支持！"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要支持，因為主計總處會講出這個數字，我預估應該是部長你仁心仁術啊！330度以下的不能漲，學校的、教育的，班班有冷氣的不能漲，農、漁業不能漲，這是最辛苦的啊！好不好？你昨天答應我瓦斯桶不要漲，我會感謝你，你昨天答應我水不能漲，我也跟你感謝啊！但是這1,500億，主計總處如果真的……我希望他是誤說啦！如果一個國家1,500億補給我們台電就沒有盈餘，這樣蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓是不對的。所以站在部長你的立場，他會講出這個數字，應該是你有講1,500億嘛，對不對？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持我們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你瞇瞇笑我就知道你應該是如此。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我一定支持！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你一定要幫我們爭取到，剛剛我所說的，學校教育，班班有冷氣不能漲，農不能漲，漁不能漲，330度以下的民生用電，拜託、拜託、再拜託不能漲，因為我們怕物價漲，太恐怖了，好不好？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：拜託你，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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來請我們的部長來 部長 這個楊委員您說明清楚吧你剛剛這樣講好像我沒有在為國家做事我說我們的目的都是要為國家做事但是整個過程我們因為我們都是召委經濟委員會大家都是非常的和諧而且非常的尊重所有的委員"},{"start":64.243,"end":91.744,"text":"包括我在主席的時候我相信你在主持的時候也是如此所以剛剛看到那個畫面讓我也很下渴因為在經濟委員會怎麼會有如此主席本席發言請王部長我還是要強調一下因為剛剛張其凱委員的質詢時間已經到而且我認為他的質詢的問題內容其實有涉及國家安全所以我希望中油的董事長私下來跟張委員做報告"},{"start":92.424,"end":102.713,"text":"國家安全就不能私下了怎麼可以私下國家安全就是可講更不講什麼這個天然氣保存本來就是最久可以放過天然氣保存的是可以問但是你的前提是在打仗的情況之下我認為這個涉及國家安全這個是自己中油也公布啊好了現在"},{"start":119.076,"end":122.661,"text":"這沒有什麼國安問題啦!"},{"start":122.661,"end":132.495,"text":"我要尊重每一位發言的委員請尊重每一位發言的委員 現在是本席質詢 請主席採視"},{"start":134.302,"end":138.245,"text":"我是會議的主席,所以也請您尊重我的主持方式。"},{"start":165.623,"end":188.608,"text":"主席北京也再請李董事長一起我們來討論來請李董事長謝謝部長我想邀請你跟李董事長一起我們就實質來討論因為現在我們仰賴液化的天然氣LNG的進口所以我們大家都關心國安的焦點之一但是經過我們的統計我"},{"start":190.848,"end":203.467,"text":"我們統計出台灣運用天然氣發電的比例50%但是能夠自主運輸的量大概就只有10%那剩下的我們就要依賴國外的採購那國外的採購像這個"},{"start":207.092,"end":207.793,"text":"是不是啊部長?"},{"start":234.383,"end":260.293,"text":"部長等一下先原則講好我們已經討論過幾次嘛國氣、國運您曾經回答過是朝這個方向這個部分也委員提了我們也跟航港局有做一些很多的討論這個裡面牽涉的問題確實是比較複雜一點所以也有在討論嘛好那所以我再給你一個背景因為中油目前我們是以賣方包運DS的方式去採購天然氣"},{"start":262.254,"end":287.192,"text":"除了有這樣的問題之外在運輸部分我們每一年必須要增加600億的支出我們也知道目前為止中油的這個樣態也必須要全力的支持中油因為沒有油這就車也不會走什麼都氣也產生不出來什麼都會有問題所以在這樣的情況之下本期要請教"},{"start":289.173,"end":313.212,"text":"本席從第10屆就要求經濟部、中油為了維持能源的供應穩定那國企國運我們必須要去實施那部長你當時我也很歡喜很高興你承諾出朝這個方向去努力所以本席首先要請問的是我們的國企國運的作業進程現在如何請說明"},{"start":315.379,"end":332.436,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上中油公司跟海運還有海運總署,就是航商所組成的海運總署,討論過很多很多的這個方案。那當然現在在整個優先決標跟優先承認這兩個雙方還有一點點歧見,持續在收斂之中。我們最近會再開一次會。"},{"start":338.502,"end":366.164,"text":"收斂中那就是有好的方向部長也在關心我們會安排跟部長我們要朝這個目標那也給部長報告因為部長也支持這個方向當然我本席也知道要增加這個是很不容易但是我們不怕苦所有的關鍵哪裡可以解套好好去想辦法因為為了國內的能源穩定這一個國氣國運是佔了很重要的角色不過跟委員報告"},{"start":368.565,"end":388.94,"text":"國企國運哪一種比較好?FOV還是DES那一種比較好?其實決定了很多條件啊齁。 好你現在說到這李董,你現在對當然所以你的DES方式現在是賣方來包運,那你是不是有可能去考慮買方來包運的方式呢?我們可以節省成本啊。"},{"start":390.162,"end":390.862,"text":"所以董事長跟部長在這邊也就是"},{"start":406.48,"end":435.489,"text":"我們討論到現在就是說為什麼我們必須要有更多條路來保障我們的能源安全因為有時候那邊暴漲有時候那邊暴跌所以我們要運用哪一種方式李董事長剛才回答的有一句本席蠻贊同的就是到底我們用哪個方式可以讓我們節省而且最重要是穩定我們的能源這是最重要的對不對我們其實努力的方向就是說多元分散然後穩定供應然後加上價格具有競爭性"},{"start":436.429,"end":459.162,"text":"當然啦當然啦但是你現在給我們整個公司的業務是馬拉斯而且很緊張所以我們會想盡一切辦法什麼樣的方式可以給中油更穩定啊 對不對那你把你討論越來越濃縮的方案朝這個方向趕快再去努力好不好我們一直努力一直努力那接下來你請回座接下來本席要請教部長我還是跟你討論一下電的問題"},{"start":463.644,"end":484.914,"text":"媒體說22號就要宣布嗎?會嗎?22號要宣布漲或不漲,漲要漲多少?是不是22號?具體的時程我沒有掌握到。你看到媒體報導的22號嗎?我還沒有掌握到,是。那我告訴你,今天的媒體報導說22號可能會宣布。那今天是幾號了?十幾號?今天14。14號距離22剩下一個禮拜。"},{"start":490.899,"end":499.241,"text":"因為當時告訴我們審議委員會會在3月中到3月底20來會開那所以這個22號不是不可能那所以請教部長"},{"start":500.403,"end":527.438,"text":"主計總書說如果把1500億照去年度的來撥補給台電那我們國家沒有盈餘他講的這個數字對嗎一個國家撥補1500億就沒有盈餘那我們台灣怎麼辦不能這樣恐嚇民眾嘛那所以請教請教部長昨天你有回答本席我也給你鼓勵給你加油我說不然我我也願意親自到行政院去拜託第一個方案"},{"start":528.769,"end":542.978,"text":"就是說行政院支援我們你也是列為第一個方案嘛那你現在談論的他要支援我們多少?要撥補給台電多少?目前確實到今天為止還沒有定案還沒有定案那你有跟行政院長講過了嗎?"},{"start":544.479,"end":549.944,"text":"有,我們跟院裡面都有密切在聯繫是有嗎?有跟行政院長陳院長講過了嗎?有沒有?你跟陳院長講過了嗎?因為建在學上了院長知道院長知道那他支不支持你這個1500億撥補回來給給給這個台電呢?院長支持要來這個撥補台電那實際上相關的經費的部分那經費呢?你給他報到多少?"},{"start":572.783,"end":596.358,"text":"經費的部分就是要精算請教部長你給他報告多少他給多少是他的事你給他報告多少我想我們有提出來你提出多少你提出兩千億嗎這個還是要以院裡面最後的決定當然啊那是院的決定就像你報給審議委員會那審議委員會去做決定啊那我請問你給院長報告多少兩千億嗎"},{"start":598.82,"end":600.1,"text":"一千五百億?"},{"start":600.1,"end":603.222,"text":"有沒有一千五百億啦?"},{"start":603.222,"end":607.164,"text":"有一千五百億嗎?"},{"start":607.164,"end":611.587,"text":"對啊,那所以也要看你提出多少啊?"},{"start":611.587,"end":612.868,"text":"那你有報告一千五百億嗎?"},{"start":612.868,"end":613.968,"text":"有一千五百億?"},{"start":613.968,"end":616.009,"text":"有報告方案,是不是一千五百億?"},{"start":621.754,"end":627.124,"text":"我們支持一定要支持因為主席總書會講出這個數字應該我預估應該是部長你人心人數啊330度以下的不能講"},{"start":634.451,"end":652.119,"text":"那個學校的、教育的、班班有冷氣的不能漲。農、漁、業不能漲。這最辛苦的啊。好不好?你昨天答應我瓦斯桶不要漲,我給你感謝。你昨天答應我水不能漲,我給你感謝啊。但是這1500億,總計總數如果真的,我希望他是誤說啦。"},{"start":658.902,"end":684.363,"text":"如果一個國家1500億鋪給我們台灣鋪給我們台電就沒有營餘這樣子蠻橫的恐嚇老百姓不對的所以站在你部長的立場他會講出這個數字應該是你有講1500億嘛對不對謝謝委員支持你明明笑我就知道你應該是如此我一定支持所以你一定要幫我們爭取到所以剛剛我所說的"},{"start":685.566,"end":703.397,"text":"學校教育斑斑有冷氣學校教育不能漲龍電不能漲水那個那個魚不能漲330度以下的民生用電拜託拜託再拜託不能漲因為我們怕物價漲太恐怖了好不好謝謝委員拜託你謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313580ee81afef1f0f599acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:04:29 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10:16:34","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":725,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:16:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:04:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時4分）我可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：早安。總裁，我想你的數學一定比我好很多。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員太客氣了。"],["李委員彥秀：我有一個小學生的數學請教。如果A小學有學生平均身高是150公分；B小學的平均身高是170公分，所以兩間小學的平均身高是160公分，這樣的計算方法對不對？A小學平均身高是150公分，B小學的平均身高是170公分，二個數字加起來除以二，就是這兩個學校的平均身高，這樣的數學算法對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：直覺上我總覺得好像是對的，應該是，沒有錯啊。"],["李委員彥秀：應該是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，不對啦！應該去找出到底A小學有多少學生，B小學有多少學生，再把人數加起來計算才對。所以正確的答案是：A小學有100人，B小學有50人，這150個同學的平均身高是156.7……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說委員的數學比我好。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我為什麼問你數學問題？我昨天很認真地看了你的報告，而最近主計總處也在今年2月底公布了對我們經濟預測的最新指數。我也觀察到你們央行也很用心，對於國內外13家專門做經濟預測的業者機構，也做了一個預測分析，最後的結果就是你們把這幾家所各自做的分析除以13，所以我們的經濟預測變3.18%，跟主計總處所計算出來的3.43%完全不一樣！總裁，我為什麼會這樣講？因為主計總處的計算有考量到很多不同因素在裡面……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但你們居然就把這13家國內外銀行及做經濟預測的機構預測數字加起來除以13，這樣數字會差很多，對於整年度的經濟預測也會有不同的結果。我的意思是說，我們要努力的方向、政策方向就會有不同的結果。不知道為什麼不用主計總處所計算出來的經濟預測，反而把這些機構的預測加起來除以13？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，剛剛前面的委員也有談到，預測時常都不準，所以我們要接受預測是不準的，這是第一點。第二個，我的老師以前都說，預測只是參考值，參考值是什麼意思？就是說預測……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，對不起，我要打斷你的話，我今天時間不多，而且還要問其他的問題。經濟預測對於各單位，對於主計總處、財政部及各單位該怎麼樣去處理預算，如何扶植產業界都很重要，所以我的意思是：差一點點就差很多！到底是3.43%對，還是你的3.13%對？而且你們的計算方法，居然只是把這13家國內外的銀行業，或有在做經濟預測的學界、產業界的機構預測加起來除以13。如果要用這樣子的方式，那麼未來各單位在經濟的投入會有相當大的差異。所以這個數字其實很重要，這是我要強調的地方……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的沒有錯，我非常贊同委員的說法……"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝總裁。礙於時間，我就轉一個話題，因為我今天主要是要問最近民眾及整個中央都非常關注，有關虛擬貨幣的問題。央行最近在談論規劃CBDC，在媒體上的討論度非常多。就此，其實我們也委託產官學界做了一些民調與研究案，預計5月份公布。我們都非常清楚知道，如果接下來真的要推虛擬貨幣的話，會面臨幾個最大挑戰：第一，民眾到底願不願意使用？第二，商家能不能接受？因為可能有新的機器、設備及人力成本要投入，還有法規面。但更重要的就是民眾使用的意願，這幾個大概就是我們所面臨的最大挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，委員講的沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我關注到你們的研究作法，因為我沒有在報告中看到，你們是用電話民調，還是會辦公聽會？包括你有沒有跟店家溝通過，就是說民眾的意願是什麼，我覺得民眾很難用電話調查知道、聽懂數位貨幣這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：我是不是請我同事來回答這個問題？因為民調是他來執行的。"],["謝參事鳳瑛：跟委員報告，我們的民調先做電訪，還有電話的訪問，還有網路的訪問，還有實體的訪問，它三種都有進行……"],["李委員彥秀：好，你答到這邊就好了。"],["謝參事鳳瑛：我們調查完之後，那個資料後續會舉辦公聽會。"],["李委員彥秀：你回答到這邊就好了。總裁，我覺得用民調電話，因為數位貨幣這件事情對於一般的民眾，你要用電話或民調去跟他講清楚，我覺得就我來讀這些資料我都要重複讀好幾遍，更何況是一般民眾，如果央行對於未來數位貨幣的推動是重大政策，而且有時間點，你勢在必行，我不知道，因為現在各國對於數位貨幣這件事情都還在討論階段，要跨出這一步恐怕都有很大的挑戰，面臨……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我們八大行庫的挑戰、民間銀行的挑戰等等。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我不知道你這個數位貨幣只是還停留在初期，還是真的要進行，還是我們要跟上國際潮流，這個是我覺得你們要思考的地方。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：第二點，總裁，我還是要跟你接下去討論我們整個虛擬貨幣的政策，因為虛擬貨幣的核心概念，其實就是要去中心化，要顛覆我們央行代表國家主權發行法定貨幣的機關，所以法定貨幣跟我們現在無論是比特幣等等的虛擬貨幣，到底是不是零和遊戲？還是未來你希望在臺灣，虛擬貨幣跟法定貨幣是有機會共存來去推動這些政策？我們有沒有平衡點？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上虛擬貨幣不是貨幣，像比特幣，比特幣是一種虛擬的資產，它不是貨幣。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，因為這些在上次你到我辦公室的時候，我們都討論非常多，所以無論我看到在111年你出席很多會議，包括金融資訊會議，你都對於這些虛擬貨幣，無論是比特幣等等，你都認為它是風險性的資產……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：包括它都是在投機炒作，無法獲得大眾的信任，包括蘇副總裁都認為它波動過大，它也沒有價值，它的穩定性也不足。我覺得整體央行對於虛擬貨幣的態度，似乎沒有太多的正面評價，我說到這邊，對不對？因為你們幾次對外的談話都是如此。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。特別是我們對投資者來講的話。我們要警告他，就是說不要以為這種虛擬資產是一種貨幣，它不是貨幣，它不是貨幣，然後你的虛擬資產會上下上下，它有漲就有跌，不要以為比特幣現在是7.2，大家都瘋搶……"],["李委員彥秀：對，我都同意，政府還是要善盡告知所有可能的風險。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這是我們的職責。"],["李委員彥秀：但是總裁，我也關注到金管會這幾年對於這些虛擬貨幣的態度，好像也有一點轉變，包括金管會納管虛擬貨幣、包括擬定了十大的指導原則、包括對於他們的相關交易平臺，我們讓他們成立、申請公會，然後我們也納入金管會的金檢，對於虛擬貨幣等等。這些狀況、這些後續金管會的處理模式，包括成立公會等等等，到底有沒有跟央行做過溝通？你們兩邊的態度是不是一致？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，我們有，而且我們也尊重金管會的作法，它是循序漸進的一個監管……"],["李委員彥秀：這個循序漸進的轉折，是因為現在很多年輕人對於虛擬貨幣很感興趣，投其所好……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你們要這樣做回應是不是？所以你們的態度才有這樣的轉折，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：這是一個趨勢，我要跟委員報告，這是一個趨勢，監管是一個趨勢。"],["李委員彥秀：所以在金管、在央行，對於虛擬貨幣其實沒有任何的正面評價，但是因為它是一個趨勢，所以你們的態度才有這樣的轉圜？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也可以這麼說，應該可以這麼說。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那我就要提醒總裁，我覺得這整件事情，後面我們還是要做更多持續的關注，因為我今天時間不夠……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：其實我還是想針對經濟的問題，因為我看到你們對於整份工作報告，對於未來的CPI也好，或者經濟預測也好，其實你也做了很多的投入，包括過去這3年我們的實質經常性薪資是倒退的，連續3年倒退，包括我們總薪資也是倒退的狀況，那你對於接下來的經濟研究，包括我們產業的轉型，其實你有很多的看法跟想法，沒有關係，因為後面還有專案報告，我希望藉由後面的專案報告再進一步跟總裁做更多討論，希望央行這邊能在貨幣政策上發揮更多的功能，讓我們整體產業結構可以轉型，否則包括現在股市上20,000點，其實只有少數人，不是大多數臺灣人都玩股票，大多數臺灣人其實是沒有錢玩股票的，所以我們的經濟如何有機會產業轉型、結構更好，讓所有的臺灣民眾可以享受到真正臺灣經濟的紅利，可能要我們的央行、我們的財政部、我們各單位大家一起共同來努力。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我非常贊同委員的意見。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝總裁。"],["主席：下一位請賴惠員委員發言。現場還有王鴻薇委員，那等一下王委員質詢完畢我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.54096875,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.29534375,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.34596875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.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擬貨幣包括你訂了十大的指導原則包括我們也對於他們相關的交易平台我們讓他們成立申請工會然後我們也納入金管會的金檢對於虛擬貨幣等等"},{"start":581.583,"end":600.437,"text":"這些狀況這些後續金管會的處理的模式包括成立公會等等等到底有沒有跟央行做過溝通你們兩邊的態度是不是一致我們有而且呢我們也尊重那個我們也尊重金管會的一個做法它是循序漸進的一個叫這個循序漸進的轉折是因為"},{"start":604.12,"end":629.756,"text":"現在很多年輕人都喜歡對於虛擬貨幣很感興趣投機鎖號所以我們要這樣做回應是不是所以你們態度才有這樣的轉折是不是這是一個趨勢這是一個趨勢我要跟委員報告這是一個趨勢監管是一個趨勢所以在監管在央行對於虛擬貨幣其實沒有任何的正面評價但是因為它是一個趨勢所以我們的態度才有這樣的轉環"},{"start":631.497,"end":651.989,"text":"應該也可以這麼說啦應該可以這麼說啦好那我就要提醒總裁我覺得這件事情我覺得後面我們還是要做更多持續的關注因為我今天時間不夠其實我還是想針對經濟的問題因為我看到你們對於整份工作報告對於未來的CPI也好或者經濟預測也好"},{"start":653.61,"end":672.153,"text":"其實你也做了很多的投入包括過去這3年我們的實質經常性薪資是倒退的連續3年倒退包括我們總薪資也是倒退的狀況那你對於接下來的經濟研究包括我們產業的轉型其實你有很多的看法跟想法"},{"start":673.254,"end":692.15,"text":"所以沒有關係因為後面還有專案報告我希望藉由後面的專案報告再進一步的跟總裁做更多的討論希望央行這邊能在貨幣政策上發揮更多的功能讓我們整體產業結構可以轉型否則包括現在股市上兩萬點其實只有少數人"},{"start":693.411,"end":693.431,"text":"謝謝總裁"},{"start":721.383,"end":721.704,"text":"下一番請賴會員賴委員"}]}},{"id":"149852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135866f73d7e5f320ad836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:00:28 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10:13:03","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":755,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:13:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:00:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時）請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：早。主委，一開始的時候，我有接到一個選民的陳情，他是臺大的博士生，所以先就這個部分看看有沒有補救的方法。去年9月12號的時候，當時國科會有開一個記者會，公布了國家科學及技術委員會博士生研究獎學金的試辦方案，對不對？這個方案就我瞭解，在2018年就有了，但當時是300個名額，然後是透過學校在分配名額的嘛！但是去年9月，我不知道為什麼、是什麼背景，去年剛好是選舉年，結果有增加名額嘛！增加了！有一個400個名額是讓學生自己去申請，對吧？應該沒有錯吧？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個是……"],["葉委員元之：一個月是1萬塊嘛！然後是4年對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是。"],["葉委員元之：一個月是4萬塊啦！然後4年嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["葉委員元之：這個政策實際上滿好的，所以很多博士生認為這個讓他們在就學的時候無後顧之憂，是非常期待的。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["葉委員元之：可是這個辦法裡面有一個非常奇怪的地方，就是9月12號開記者會，然後隨即就讓他們來申請，是不是在9月15號到10月16號這個月來申請？就是只有一個月的時間可申請。"],["吳主任委員政忠：細節我請處長來……"],["葉委員元之：只有一個月的時間可申請，這裡面就衍生出幾個問題。第一個問題，112年9月15，也就是去年9月15到10月16這段期間，實際上很多博士生並不知道他要讀博士班。實際上我們來看一下，像臺大的博班是5月到6月放榜嘛！也許他是1、2月的時候才決定要考博士班，對不對？","政大的話，我們特別來看一下，政大也是差不多3月的時候，他們12月28號才公布簡章，然後今年3月才開始受理，所以你在這些學校都還沒有確定怎麼招生的情況底下，在前一年的9月，而且只有一個月的時間，讓他們來申請這個獎學金，其實這時間上是滿奇怪的，不知道主委當初為什麼會定這個時間？"],["吳主任委員政忠：因為當初就是，我們原來有300名給各個學校去……"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是討論那300名，我現在是討論另外那400名。"],["吳主任委員政忠：300名加300名，我們把它增加到600名。"],["葉委員元之：600我知道。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那400名是針對國家的重點政策、方向，才去call這些學生，當初的用意是希望唸完碩士以後那些來考博士班的學生，所以你要提早去讓已經畢業的學生有意願來報考博士班。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得主委的立意良善，我們就聚焦在那400名，好不好？因為本來的300名擴張到600名，這部分我們就不討論了，我現在要討論的是新增的那400名，就是可以讓學生自己去申請的那400名。"],["吳主任委員政忠：對。"],["葉委員元之：這400名，第一個我覺得時間很奇怪，因為它只有一個月的時間可受理，而且很多考生在那個時候並不知道自己要讀博士班，所以你的立意良善，可是在執行上卻非常遭受到大家的質疑。","我先一次問完，你們一次解釋。","第二個問題就是說，現在有考生，因為時間很短，只有9月中到10月中這段時間可以申請，他就先去申請了，很多是博士班一年級的在職學生去申請，不知道主委知不知道？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有聽說，有人來反映了。"],["葉委員元之：那你知道為什麼會這樣嗎？因為博士班一年級的學生一開始以為這個獎金他拿得到，然後學校老師跟他說他拿不到，因為那是針對未來的考生。所以他們就想說，可以先取得資格，9月的時候先去申請，取得資格之後，他今年再想辦法隨便報考一個學校。他取得了入學許可之後，加上他9月多拿到的那個資格，他就可以來領這個一個月4萬塊的獎學金了。","這會造成什麼問題呢？這會造成的問題就是，它會占名額嘛！對不對？第一個他原本是博一的學生，這個名額就浪費了嘛！第二個他跑去再考一次，對於其他考生也不公平嘛！所以我的意思是說，你們當時設這個獎學金立意良善，可是制度的設計會產生我剛剛講的弊端。"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["葉委員元之：第三個問題就是，宣傳實在是很不夠，那個博士班一年級的考生跟我陳情的時候，我問他你怎麼知道這個事？他說是學校老師講的。學校老師只能針對在學的學生講，可是其他的、外面的考生根本不知道這個東西。我特別上網去查了一下，是有看到你們有開記者會，但是那個記者會就是幾個即時新聞，導致我後來去問了很多大學老師，包括教碩士班的老師，他們都不知道這個東西。","換句話說，你這個獎學金只有給那些巷子內的人申請嘛！就是9月12號公布，9月15來申請，有人知道，或是消息比較靈通，或國科會有配合的人可以來申請，其他所有一般大專院校碩士生都不知道。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們應該有正式……"],["葉委員元之：我認為是這樣子，我也不想找主委的麻煩，我們現在就是亡羊補牢，能不能針對……我覺得名額是不是可以開放給在學的博士班學生，讓他們一起來申請？否則我跟你講一個狀況，真的，你到時候，反正主委以後還會再來嘛！一定會產生的狀況就是，一堆現在博士班一年級的學生，為了要拿這個獎學金，又再去讀另外一個博士班的一年級，一定會出現這個狀況，你相不相信，主委？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有聽說。"],["葉委員元之：有聽說嘛！對嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：但是不鼓勵這樣。"],["葉委員元之：當然不鼓勵啊！問題是，因為你制度的漏洞才產生這樣的狀況，所以我認為大家應該要亡羊補牢啦！是不是可以針對我剛剛講的問題，想一個解決的方法，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個細節我想就請處長來……"],["葉處長至誠：報告委員，有關於委員關心的問題，我先簡單地說明。第一個就是我們在辦這個獎學金甄選的時候，我們有辦一系列的座談會，也在座談會裡面得知，從112年10月開始，就有學校開始進行推甄。為了配合學校的作業時程，所以我們會在9月的時候開始收件，這是一個最主要的原因。另外有關廣宣方面，我們除了給學校行文之外，我們也有辦一系列的座談會。"],["葉委員元之：就是不夠啊！你可不可講一下，你們到底總共辦了幾場座談會？"],["葉處長至誠：我可以再跟我們同仁確認一下，再跟葉委員報告？"],["葉委員元之：對啊！你都沒有印象，當然都講不出來。"],["吳主任委員政忠：真的也不可能全部都下去，我們儘量……"],["葉委員元之：主委，我覺得既然現在博士班一年級的學生有這樣的疑慮，而且確實我們剛剛討論的結果，你也承認會有一些弊端出現，我們現在亡羊補牢就好，就是針對這個漏洞，然後把它補起來。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們來……"],["葉委員元之：我個人的建議是，因為到時候一定會出現很多人現在是申請到資格，但是最後沒有來領，或是他跑去取得另外一個博一的身分，造成現在很多學校有缺額的狀況。我覺得這一定會出現，我們把這個洞補起來，所以我建議是不是可以開放給博一生，讓他們來申請，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們來研議看看。"],["葉委員元之：你可不可以給我們一個報告？就是針對我剛剛講的問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候可以給我。"],["葉處長至誠：委員，我們一個月可以嗎？"],["葉委員元之：當然不可以啊！"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以啦！"],["葉委員元之：這個這麼簡單的東西，一個禮拜好不好？就是去研究一下怎麼把這個洞給補起來而已嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：兩個禮拜。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝主委，你是不是會直接發文給我們辦公室？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，可以、可以。"],["葉委員元之：第二個接下來就是剛剛也有委員問到，我個人也是滿關心的，就是那個太空三級計畫，因為我記得這個計畫當初政府是敲鑼打鼓在宣布啦！當時的行政院長蘇貞昌為了推廣自己的政績，說他衝衝衝100天，第一個計畫就是簽署太空計畫啦！現在2019年開始的這10年是有400億，對不對？可是400億裡面，我覺得最重要的就是國家發射場的選址。"],["吳主任委員政忠：原來是250億……"],["葉委員元之：現在變400億嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是，是增加400億。"],["葉委員元之：增加400億，所以是650億？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以大家很重視這件事情，才會編這麼多的預算嘛！可是我發現它的進度比較緩慢，因為去年我記得朝野，也是在教文委員會，就是希望國科會可以針對太空火箭，國家火箭發射站的選址能有一個定案，這是去年的時候。可是去年國科會跟太空中心好像不同調，太空中心一開始是對外講說，好像已經有一個場址的選擇了，可是國科會馬上就說沒這回事，所以太空中心很怕，你可以看我紅色圈起來的部分，它說我們都是在國科會的指導下，還沒進行實質討論。所以這個事情到底是國科會在負責，還是太空中心在負責？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們主任說他沒說這件事情，這不知道是誰說的。"],["葉委員元之：這個不是你們發的新聞稿嗎？它說「均須在國科會的指導下」。所以這個是國科會在負責，還是太空中心在負責？這是你們自己太空中心發的新聞稿耶！"],["吳主任委員政忠：因為太空中心是國科會下面一個……"],["葉委員元之：對、對、對，所以是太空中心在決定嗎？不是，是國科會在決定。那我就問主委，你看在111年的8月已經有一個作業審查的會議要點了，對不對？111年到現在也快1年半了，然後去年的時候立法院有要求你們在去年底那個場址就應該要先確定，對吧！"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個場址確定必須要有一些程序啦！"],["葉委員元之：預算上，去年也有九千七百多萬，那九千七百多萬是用在哪裡？因為選址的部分現在算是好像沒有進展，所以九千七百多萬是用在哪？"],["何專門委員紀芳：其實一直都在進行當中，包含如果要評估這些相關的指標都需要去做相關的跨部會協商，還有跟專家學者來進行討論。"],["葉委員元之：好。最後一點時間，這個是你們2月的會議紀錄，都沒有內容！給我們的資料好像很害怕一樣，全部都是寫得非常簡單，這個為什麼不能夠……"],["吳主任委員政忠：不好意思……"],["葉委員元之：因為這個預算這麼多，今年編了兩億多耶！然後立委跟你調資料，你給這種，說我們已經在選址了，這有給跟沒給一樣啊！"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個選址，事實上，以前大家都不喜歡這個發射場，不過現在好像也蠻多地方在爭取……"],["葉委員元之：哪些地方在爭取？"],["吳主任委員政忠：其實可以有的就屏東和臺東。"],["葉委員元之：所以屏東和臺東現在在爭取就對了？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該是有意願。"],["葉委員元之：那後來怎麼決定這兩個要選哪一個？"],["吳主任委員政忠：當然是有一些專業的考量，譬如要靠近赤道，whatever，場地旁邊的交通，還有環境、未來的擴張性，都是我們考量的。"],["葉委員元之：所以2月會議到底討論了什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：就是我們外面的專家委員來確定哪些是審查的條件，程序也是定下來，請主任說明。"],["吳主任宗信：2月6日開會主要的目的是要把這個選址的法定程序定下來，第2點是挑選址需要怎樣的物理條件，譬如交通、地點要多偏遠或者是不是要靠太平洋，種種這些條件，有這些以後，我們才依法一步一步往下推演。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這個動作有點慢了……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們會加速、我們會加速。"],["葉委員元之：因為我時間也到了，主委，這個預算都編了，我們希望動作可以快一點。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。吳主委，請回。","再來請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.08159375,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.20659375,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.590343750000002,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.73346875,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.032218750000002,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":33.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.915343750000005,"end":38.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.39596875,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.30784375,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.59471875,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":66.04596875,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.45909375000001,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.26471875,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.76221875,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.93096875,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.48284375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":81.97596875,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.21221875,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.77534375,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.66096875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.15346875,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.54909375000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.00284375000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.17159375000001,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.40284375000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":133.03971875000002,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.42534375,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.94409375,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.96846875,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.87471875,"end":166.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.37221875,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.80721875,"end":202.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":202.10909375,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.98659375000003,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.95659375000002,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.09846875000002,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.35471875000002,"end":225.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.85221875000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.42096875000001,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":235.63971875000001,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.02784375000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.06096875000003,"end":244.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.22471875000002,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.50534375,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.30096875000004,"end":271.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.81971875,"end":278.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.10971875,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":282.09659375,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.38346875,"end":284.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.45909375,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":294.87096875000003,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.12409375000004,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.63346875,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.05096875000004,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.30784375,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.94659375000003,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.41409375,"end":340.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.50096875,"end":352.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.81971875000005,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAK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對不對第一個他原本是博一的學生那這個名額就浪費了嘛第二個他跑去再考一次那對於其他考生也不公平嘛所以我的意思是說你們當時這個獎學金利益良善可是制度的設計會產生我剛剛講的弊端了第三個問題就是宣傳實在是很不夠因為我那個考生跟我那個博士班一年級的"},{"start":298.411,"end":322.693,"text":"他跟我澄清的時候我問他說你怎麼知道這個事他說學校老師講的學校老師只能針對在學的學生講可是其他的外面的考生根本不知道這個東西那我特別去上網查了一下是有看到你們有開記者會但是記者會就是幾個即時新聞導致於我後來我去問了很多大學的老師包括教碩士班的老師他們都不知道這個東西"},{"start":324.191,"end":339.85,"text":"換句話說你這個獎學金只有給那些巷子內的人申請嘛就是9月12號公佈9月15來申請有人知道或是消息比較靈通或國科會有配合的人他可以來申請其他所有一般大專院校碩士生都不知道"},{"start":340.595,"end":342.236,"text":"一堆現在博士班一年級的學生"},{"start":368.394,"end":389.179,"text":"為了要拿這個獎學金他又再去讀另外一個博士班的一年級一定會出現這個狀況你相不相信主任有聽說有聽說嘛對嘛但是不鼓勵這樣當然不鼓勵啊問題是因為你的制度的漏洞產生這個狀況嘛所以我認為說大家應該要亡羊補牢啦是不是可以針對我剛剛講的問題想一個解決的方法好不好來這個細節我想處長應該有"},{"start":393.94,"end":422.346,"text":"包括委員有關於委員您關心的問題我先簡單的說明第一個呢就是我們在辦這個獎學基金的甄選的時候我們有辦一系列的座談會也在座談會裡面得知從112年的10月開始就有學校開始進行推爭因為要配合學校的作業時程所以我們會在9月的時候就開始來那個收監這是一個最主要的一個原因另外有關廣宣方面我們除了給學校行文之外我們也有辦一系列的座談會"},{"start":423.456,"end":426.426,"text":"就不夠啊那你可不可以講一下你們辦的幾場總統辦幾場作案會"},{"start":429.497,"end":430.077,"text":"我個人的建議是說"},{"start":457.602,"end":459.363,"text":"你可不可以給我一個報告好不好?就是針對我剛剛講的問題那什麼時候可以給我?"},{"start":483.677,"end":488.001,"text":"第2個接下來就是剛剛也有委員問到我個人也是蠻關心的就是那個太空三級計畫因為我記得這個計畫當初在"},{"start":510.331,"end":536.849,"text":"政府是敲鑼打鼓在宣布當時的行政院長蘇貞昌為了推廣自己的政績說他衝衝衝100天第一個計畫就是簽署太空計畫那現在這10年2019開始10年是有400億對不對可是400億裡面我覺得最重要的就是國家發射廠的選址原來是250億現在變400億對不對不是增加400億增加400億所以是650億所以大家很重視這件事情在編這麼多預算"},{"start":538.57,"end":561.159,"text":"可是我發現就是說他的進度比較緩慢因為去年我記得草野也是在教文委員會就是希望說國科會可以針對太空火箭國家火箭發射戰的選址有一個定案去年的時候可是去年國科會跟太空中心好像就不同調太空中心一開始對外講說好像已經有一個"},{"start":562.543,"end":587.298,"text":"有一個長子的選擇了可是國科會馬上就說沒這回事所以太空中心很怕啦你可以看我紅色圈起來的部分他說我們都是在國科會指導下啦還沒進行實質討論所以這個事情到底是國科會在負責還是太空中心在負責我們主任說他沒說這個事情這不是什麼人說來所以他說這個不是你們發的新聞稿嗎軍需在國科會指導下"},{"start":588.519,"end":600.416,"text":"所以這個是國科會在負責還是太空中心在負責這是你們自己太空中心發的新聞稿欸那個齁因為太太太空中心是國科下面一個對嘛對嘛沒有所以所以是太空中心在決定嗎"},{"start":601.65,"end":630.182,"text":"不是是國科會決定那我就問主委因為目前進度緩慢是因為你看在111年的8月已經有一個作業審查的會議要點了嘛對不對111年到現在也快一年半了嘛然後去年的時候立法院有要求你們說在去年底就應該要那個長子要先確定嘛對吧那個長子確定必須要有一些程序那現在預算上去年也有九千九千七百多萬嘛"},{"start":631.004,"end":633.832,"text":"那決心期來多萬支用在哪裡?來 主任 來"},{"start":638.092,"end":663.335,"text":"因為長子選址的部分現在是算是好像沒有進展嘛那所以9700多萬是用在哪其實一直都在進行當中因為包含如果要就是評估這些相關的一些指標都需要去做相關的這些跨部會的協商還有跟專家學者來進行討論那好這個是最後一點時間這個是你們二月的會議記錄嘛然後都沒有內容然後給我們的資料好像"},{"start":664.711,"end":692.413,"text":"很害怕一樣就全部都是寫得非常的簡單這為什麼不能夠不好意思因為這個預算這麼多今年編的兩億多然後立委跟你調資料然後你給這種說我們已經在選址了這有寫跟沒給一樣那個選址因為事實上以前大家都不喜歡這個發射廠不過現在好像也蠻多地方在爭取哪些地方在爭取因為其實可以有的就屏東跟台東所以屏東跟台東現在在爭取對不對"},{"start":693.904,"end":705.314,"text":"應該是有意願的那後來怎麼決定這兩個要選哪一個這是有一些專業的考量就是說你要靠近赤道whatever然後你要場地旁邊的交通還有一些環境"},{"start":706.434,"end":721.687,"text":"未來的擴張性都是我們考量的所以二月會議到底討論什麼?我們就是把一些審查的條件我們外面的專家委員來確定要哪些是審查的條件那程序也是把它定下來"},{"start":724.77,"end":744.881,"text":"二月六日開會主要的目的是要把這個選址的程序法定程序定下來第二點是要挑這個選址需要怎樣的物理條件比如說交通地點要多偏遠或者是不是要靠太平洋種種這些條件有這些以後我們才依法一步一步才往下推演"},{"start":745.742,"end":746.102,"text":"李宗盛"}]}},{"id":"149851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135883be97af8c214b908cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a65aed41defc5d99185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:58:47 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6，我們怎麼去取得國際的認同？碳權交易我們怎麼交易？你們是不是有一個初步的規劃，或者是不是已經取得國際的協定了？"],["薛部長富盛：給盧委員報告，我們去年7月8號在高雄成立碳權交易所，去年12月22號就已經推出第一筆的國外碳權交易，今年碳權交易所應該也會交易國內的碳權。我想盧委員比較關心的是，譬如歐盟的CBAM，假如將來這些廠商在國內繳碳費，到底歐盟會不會承認，是不是？可不可以抵換？"],["盧委員縣一：是。"],["薛部長富盛：因為CBAM本來是去年底要把執行細則公布出來，結果說真的也沒有公布出來，但是根據CBAM的法條，只要你在你的國家有官方的憑證，即事實上你繳了碳費，他們就承認。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我們進行下一個主題。因為這是我的主要政見，所以我還是要問部長一些關於我們原住民的議題。我們都知道現在可以計算碳匯的大部分都是森林，雖然可以計算的有從土壤的、海洋的、森林的，但我知道森林大概占了80%。臺灣原住民都居住在高山上，也就是森林所占的國有林地大概有70%左右是原住民的領域。你們有沒有計算過傳統領域在這裡面的占比或是以後執行碳交易的時候，原住民實際可以取得的利益或者可以從中來參與的部分？你們有沒有考量過？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，這個有。因為碳費跟碳權的增量額度這一塊，事實上是跨部會，所以盧委員比較關心的、特別是森林的這一塊，事實上是由農委會在主責。但是環境部提供他們一些協助，包括未來他們建立方法學之後，必須經過環境部同意、認可。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那我知道了。流程包括準備期、註冊申請階段，還有額度申請階段，我們目前是在哪一個階段？"],["薛部長富盛：我們從兩年前就開始要求排碳大戶，即每年碳排量超過2.5萬噸者必須做碳盤查，過去兩年這五百多家都有在進行；至於中小企業以及2.5萬噸以下，事實上是沒有，但是經濟部跟環境部一直有在輔導、鼓勵他們，根據環境部給他們的一些簡單公式，他們可以去盤算每年大概產生了多少碳。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們知道在氣候變遷因應法的規定，我來唸一次，政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區的自然碳匯，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["盧委員縣一：圖上我畫紅色圈圈這邊，我們參與的程度到底在哪裡？可以稍微解釋一下嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：的確，一般民眾現在對所謂森林碳匯有一點誤解，覺得有一大片森林就擁有很多所謂的碳費或者碳權，事實上不是這樣。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，所以應該要解釋清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：它的概念是要取得碳權，事實上必須增加，既有的就不算了。你必須有一片新的土地去造林，看增加多少，根據方法學1公頃的林地每年可以吸收多少二氧化碳，這個時候才能夠算，所以一般民眾的確有一些誤解。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。因為原住民族數千年來都是跟森林生活在一起，等於我們的自然慣習、傳統文化都是用很畏天的方式在跟大自然共存，希望在這個碳的市場裡面，我們原住民族不要缺席。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["盧委員縣一：其實也有一些文獻指出，我們原住民族可以是碳市場裡面的主要領導者，希望你們能夠參閱有關的文獻。我們要爭取的是 Forest Equity，也就是我們在說交通平權、健康平權，甚至到森林也是平權的概念，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["盧委員縣一：我昨天拿到審議會的名單，裡面從召集人一直到學者專家，有很多人，可是沒有一位委員是原住民族，是不是以後可以突破？"],["薛部長富盛：的確，當初在考慮委員的身分並沒有想到種族這一塊。"],["盧委員縣一：因為這個任期是到115年2月28號……"],["薛部長富盛：是，他是一任兩年，未來……"],["盧委員縣一：希望能夠增加，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。我們知道現在已經是到你剛才說的 Carbon Bank的概念了，它有一些浮動的機制，我來提出一些我的問題，因為我也不太懂它在講什麼。請你告訴我什麼叫做 Unlimited Banking？因為幾乎每一個測量的方法裡面都有一個 Unlimited Banking。"],["蔡署長玲儀：國際間對於這種自願性碳市場有一個必須要遵循的原則，當然它需要涉及到這個法規的外加性，也必須要注意到對於自然生態資源的保護。"],["盧委員縣一：沒關係，我相信……你沒回答到我的問題，有空的時候，我們再聊一聊。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：OK。謝謝盧委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員。現在宣告事項：待會兒林淑芬委員質詢結束之後，我們休息10分鐘。","現在請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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6就是第6章第6章文案嗎我們怎麼去取得國際的認同探全交易我們怎麼來交易有沒有一個你們是不是一個初步的規劃或者說取得國際的決定是不是已經有取得了"},{"start":70.776,"end":88.106,"text":"報告我們在去年的7月8號成立的探全交易所在高雄那去年的12月22號就第一筆的國外探全交易就已經推出來的"},{"start":88.746,"end":116.425,"text":"那大概今年應該是探險交易所也會把國內的探險去做交易那我想盧委員比較關心的就是說比如說像歐盟的西貝那這些廠商在國內將來繳探費那到底歐盟他會不會承認是不是可不可以抵換那跟盧委員報告因為西貝他本來是去年底要把執行細則"},{"start":118.126,"end":142.899,"text":"公布出來結果說真的也沒有公布出來但是根據他西邊的法條裡面只要你在你的國家事實上有官方的憑證你繳了碳費他們就承認就是因為這是我的主要政見裡面所以我還是要跟署長來問一些關於我們原住民的議題下一頁下一頁"},{"start":149.349,"end":159.649,"text":"我們都知道說大部分現在可以計算大概都是森林的嗎可以計算有從土壤的有從海洋的有從森林的那森林我知道大概是佔了80%我們下一頁"},{"start":162.438,"end":182.235,"text":"那森林的這個所謂的探的那個我們在我們都知道在臺灣我們原住民都居住在高山上也就是說森林的占有我們好像國有林地的大概70%左右是我們原住民的領域所以我想說你們有沒有去計算過傳統領域在這個裡面的"},{"start":186.027,"end":196.447,"text":"或是以後在實行探教育的時候我們原住民實際可以取得的一個所謂的利益或者說可以從中間來參與這個部分你們有沒有考量過"},{"start":197.318,"end":215.179,"text":"阿給盧委員報告事實上這個有那因為碳費的這個部分齁跟碳權阿就是這個增量額度的這一塊事實上他是跨部會所以盧委員比較關心的特別是森林的這一塊事實上是由農委會在主責"},{"start":216.28,"end":236.052,"text":"但是環境部是提供他們一些這個協助包括未來他們建立方法學之後必須經過環境部同意認可大概我們的目前的一個準備期注冊申請階段還有額度申請階段我們目前是在哪一個階段"},{"start":241.015,"end":257.022,"text":"額額額額額額額額額額額額額額"},{"start":257.162,"end":279.219,"text":"那過去兩年這500多家事實上都有在進行的那至於中小企業以及2.5萬對以下事實上是沒有但是經濟部跟環境部一直有在輔導鼓勵他們根據環境部給他們一些簡單的公式他們事實上是可以去盤算他們大概每年產生了多少的碳"},{"start":283.506,"end":309.662,"text":"我們知道在氣候邊牽的應應法裡面我來念一次就是說政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區的自然碳會對不對是那麼下一頁那我說我們這個在指定這個我大概畫紅色圈圈這邊我們的參與的程度到底在哪裡所以可以稍微解釋一下嗎"},{"start":312.664,"end":335.15,"text":"給盧文報告就是說的確一般民眾現在對所謂森林碳會有一點誤解覺得說我有一大片森林那我大概就哇擁有很多的所謂的碳費或者碳權這個事實上不是這樣子我知道所以應該要解釋清楚它的概念是你要取得這個碳權事實上你必須是增加"},{"start":336.528,"end":357.377,"text":"計有的就就就就不算了是必須你有一片新的土地那你去照林那增加多少那根據方法學一公頃的林地可以每年產吸收多少二氧化碳那這個時候才能夠算所以這個可能一般的民眾是的確有一些誤覺"},{"start":358.437,"end":379.04,"text":"馬斯希望說因為我們原住民族基本上從一起數千年來都是跟森林生活在一起是說我們的自然慣習我們的傳統文化都是用很為天的方式在跟大自然共存希望在這個碳的市場裡面我們原住民族不要缺席好下一頁"},{"start":380.563,"end":401.198,"text":"那就是說其實也有一些文獻指出說我們原住民族可以試探市場裡面的一個主要領導者希望你們能夠參與有關的文獻下一頁我們要爭取的是forest equity也就是我們在說交通平權健康平權甚至到生意也是平權的概念好嗎好"},{"start":404.093,"end":423.194,"text":"那我我剛到昨天拿了一個我所謂的我們的這個是誰會好的名單裡面從召集人一直到學者專家很多人可是我們沒有應該是沒有一位原住民族的委員在裡面是不是以後可以突破"},{"start":424.963,"end":451.823,"text":"啊給文報告吼的確當初在考慮委員的身份並沒有去想到種族的這一塊所以因為你們這個任期是到115年的2月28號是他是一任兩年對所以那未來對希望能再增加好嗎是好謝謝下一頁好謝謝好沒關係再下一頁"},{"start":453.035,"end":477.33,"text":"那我們知道現在已經是到一個所謂的你剛才說的carbon Bank的一個概念了那他有些浮動的一些機制裡面那我來提出一些我的問題因為我也不太懂他在講什麼下一頁請你告訴我什麼叫做Unlimited Banking因為幾乎每一個方法裡面測量的方法裡面都有一個Unlimited BankingUnlimited Banking"},{"start":485.765,"end":511.252,"text":"幾乎每一個方法裡面都有個unlimited banking根委員報告就是國際間對於這種自願性碳市場他有一個必須要遵循的這個原則那當然他需要涉及到這個法規的外加性然後也有必須要去注意到這個對於自然生態資源的這個保護沒關係我相信你們回答到我的問題我們有空的時候我們再聊一聊謝謝"},{"start":512.745,"end":513.067,"text":"個好謝盧委員好謝"}]}},{"id":"149850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353aee67ca2d61b119d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6bb1958f17482a95c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:51:58 - 10:07:08","影片長度":"00:15:10","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":910,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:07:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:51:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時51分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：邱部長好。今天大家在討論我們的一個應處作為，就是在目前共軍機艦侵擾我方的海域也好、空域也好，造成的這些相關的應處作為，我想我們報告裡面有提到，部長也都有多方做一些說明，這個我們可能待會再探討，不過有很多我們的一些武器、裝備、工具，對於我們現在要應處目前的環境，其實也是非常地重要。"],["邱部長國正：是，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：依據2023年美聯社的報導，2023年美國的財政年度綜合撥款法案裡面所授權的，要提供我國每年最多20億美元額度的外國軍事融資，現在已經有提供我們8,000萬美元的融資額度嘛，對不對？而且可能在上一批裡面，其實已經有運送過來，當然我們國防部對於美國還是敬表感謝，基於臺美的默契沒有評論，可是對於我們來說，我想要請教的是，我覺得這個也是我們全體國人應該要知道的，尤其是立法院，因為這個牽涉到是不是會動用到我們的預算，而且有很多的面向，我記得在之前有詢問過部長，部長在立法院也答復，不是所有美國的軍援我們都會照單全收。"],["邱部長國正：是，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：因為硬塞給我們是沒有意義的。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["馬委員文君：這個部長有說過嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：那就這一批裝備來看，我想請教的是，這是無償嗎？這8,000萬美元要不要付錢？"],["邱部長國正：這是無償。"],["馬委員文君：這一部分是無償的，那無償就牽涉到部長所說的，這是不是我們需要的，因為它塞給我們，這個怕有一些問題，雖然國防部沒有證實，可是媒體信誓旦旦地提到了幾個，比如像刺針飛彈、戰鬥個裝，還有240等等，其實這些是有暴露出來了，這個會不會牽涉到延壽，或者未來的料配件，或者因為它送來了，我們不可能把它露天隨便擺放，你還要蓋庫房、後勤的維保等等，這個到底是給了我們什麼樣的東西，是不是我們要的，我們還要增加多少剛剛我提到的這些後續的預算？我們有計算過嗎？這真的是符合我們需求的嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員剛剛講的兩點，第一個，我現在講一下，我們軍事經常講到略、術、鬥、技、具，就戰略、戰術、戰鬥，然後戰技跟戰具，由上到下是一個指導，我有什麼樣的戰略構想，我要指導你戰術作為如何，由上向下，再來，由下往上的話叫支持，我要有了戰具才能夠練這個戰技，所以一步一步，這個層次很分明。所以我當初講的到現在沒有變，它對我們有的軍援或任何的一個好處，我們不會照單全收，一定會經過討論，除了感激以外，不光我們國防部跟它討論，而且國防部還透過各部會，你們怎麼樣能夠共用的，絕對很周延，這第一個。第二個，有關於它裝備來了，我們怎麼儲存、運用，這個同步在做的，就跟我們現在要採購哪些裝備進來，艦案是有個長期性，但是艦案當中也包含裝備一旦獲得了，要怎麼樣來維管、維保，甚至人員訓練怎麼存儲，統統列在裡面，這是整體一道作業的。"],["馬委員文君：所以它會不會用掉我們很多的預算？因為它一定是舊的嘛！現有庫存的嘛！"],["邱部長國正：庫存，但是絕對堪用的、絕對可用的。"],["馬委員文君：因為堪用，我們剛剛提到它可能有延壽的問題，可能後勤、維保會造成比較大的負擔，因為不用錢就是貴啦！我們用咖啡機來來舉例，現在有很多它會送你咖啡機，可是它咖啡豆特別貴，你不用又不行……"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解委員的意思。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個部分是我們要考慮的，這也是我們非常重視部長當初說的，不是它要給我們什麼，我們統統要收，那這裡面有沒有刺針飛彈？第一批裡面。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，有些細節部分……"],["馬委員文君：還是說不適合……"],["邱部長國正：我建議一下委員，我們這邊不適合做那麼詳細的說明，但我會派人到委員那邊去詳細跟您報告，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：好。因為這個牽涉到接下來的部分，就是美國的年度預算裡面，在最新的報導就是有獨列臺灣，在國務院他們通過的預算裡面，其實有1億元，就是年度預算這個部分，美國另外編1億元的對臺軍援。","就這一個部分，國務院的副國務卿也提到，年度預算讓美國能夠持續投資國力基礎，而且跟志同道合的夥伴強化共同的利益，盡一切可能在競爭中勝過中國。從韋瑪說的這一段話裡面也赤裸裸的直接表明，其實臺灣可能是美國想要在跟中國競爭當中所勝出的一個工具，因為在這些基礎或者像它的軍援，就1億元這個部分，之前8,000萬美元是無償的，那這1億元是有償還是無償？"],["邱部長國正：也一樣是無償，這個法案對我們最大利處就是，第一個，我們要什麼東西可以討論，我們不會照單全收，而且它給的絕對不會是廢品等等，不會。另外，我們因為無償，所以將來不會有任何的顧慮，而且我想這一方面細節部分還是要拜託委員，我們派專人去跟你說明。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在討論的部分就是有償、無償嘛！因為在它通過的法案裡面其實是分兩種，有一種是無償的，有一種是有償的，就是要融資的。那融資的部分就我們的預算法裡面，其實不管是借貸或者各方面，你的歲入、歲出、所有的支出是必須經過立法院，因為這個牽涉到我們所有整體的預算，所以如果是融資的部分，必須要讓全民知道，這個部分國防部可以做到嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這個一定的。"],["馬委員文君：除非是無償嘛！"],["邱部長國正：我方也怕放一個東西給你，將來變成一個源頭，因為如此要付出什麼費用，我們是絕對不會接受，就算假如有的話，我們也會跟委員、跟這個會裡面做一個報告，不會貿然地去做決定，這點可以保證。"],["馬委員文君：好，那就這些部分，我想這個牽涉到我們後續還有非常多的武器裝備，因為我們付出的、我們的需求，到目前為止，可能美方欠缺的還是非常、非常多，還沒有交給我們。所以就這兩個部分，我們希望可以做一個平衡，而不是它庫存的一直提供給我們，現在是有說明說是無償，可是我們還是希望在後續，比如說後勤的維保還有料配件，它既然是庫存的，料配件的取得也許也是我們要擔憂的啦！"],["邱部長國正：是，這我們會持續……"],["馬委員文君：所以這些也請到時候在辦公室做一些說明。"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我們現在面臨到非常多像越界的問題，即使海巡的這個問題解決了以後，它持續還是會發生，不管是在我們的空域也好、在我們的海域也好、我們周邊的海疆也好，其實都會不斷地發生。目前越界捕撈或者……","像海巡署也證實了，之前他們的漁船已經進到我們6海里的地方，而且中國的挖泥船也一直不斷地出沒，在威嚇我們禁限制的水域，就這些狀況來看，我們國防部要如何跟海巡這邊做適切的搭配？因為像之前三艘大的漁船進來，其實顯然海巡已經沒有很多的人力資源可以去應付。尤其像我剛剛講的，如果它進來的不是軍艦，如果是讓大家覺得威脅最深的，就是小藍人，它也不是軍艦，可是它又是重型漁船，至少都500噸以上，其實如果它在北、中、南各放20艘，我們大概就疲於奔命。那海巡在沒有辦法自己去面對處置的時候，國防部這邊會有什麼樣的方向、方式，可以跟他們做銜接的應處作為嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是，委員剛剛問到了一個重點，我們跟海巡署怎麼樣搭配、怎麼樣互相協調問題，平常我們有一個協定，在什麼樣的狀況下，我們海軍會去支援，但是支援有個界定，除非它有武裝，我們要以武裝來對它武裝。","目前為止，還有剛剛委員所假定的，都是好像在執法當中會遇到的，現在海巡有任何問題，它跟我們聯絡，平常情報就有交換、都通聯的，一旦要的話，我們也保持在一個範圍以內，提供它旁邊還有什麼狀況或提供它必要的支援，更加接近或去做很有實質效果的，幫它做一個防阻。但原則上講，只要對方沒有用軍事裝備的話，我們國軍不宜，因為這個一定是一個執法跟軍事作戰，是完全不一樣的，我們也謹慎地來面對。"],["馬委員文君：部長，當然我們也不希望有太多的壓力給我們國防部或者海巡，因為我們也知道現有的處境狀況，可是因為現在慢慢地從過去24、12、6、3、2，它越來越近，即使不是軍艦，可能對我們還是有一些壓力跟影響。"],["邱部長國正：這一定的。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，我們也希望除了我們的國防單位、海巡單位其實應該要去面對以外，怎麼樣去做更好的溝通？因為美中的競爭這麼多，剛剛部長也提到其實領導人應該要有智慧去做政策的決定，然後怎麼樣再用各項的手段工具，讓我們維持更安定、更和平的狀態，不管用什麼樣的方式。我想今天因為要討論的是實質面，我們也希望透過更多的溝通跟交流可以恢復，因為美中都可以，沒有理由我們這麼近的距離卻做不到。","所以這個部分，我們還是要強調，借一點點時間。我覺得比較不可思議的，就是我們這一次海龍、海虎有一些潛艦的官士兵可能犧牲了，大家都不希望這樣的事情發生。可是在這事件發生以後，其實大家急著做的反而……我覺得沒有很深刻地去探討它核心的問題，而是急著採購。你急著採購以後，又是像海軍、空軍、陸軍對於三軍可能都有同時買，在落海、落水以後會有一些裝備。我們不是利用不幸的事件來採購，而且你在這個採購的過程還有一些問題，比如說海軍買的，你明明買的數量比其他軍種都還要多，可是你卻買的比別人貴，而且你如果用限制性指商，你買得多又買得貴，那其他的空軍跟陸軍可以買的比較便宜，而且它用公開的，因為它說的理由是緊急，然後可能只有一家嘛！可是當空軍跟陸軍要採買的時候，它用公開招標，好多家都有資格。","我在這裡要特別強調的是，我們不要利用不幸的事件做一些不對的事情，在這裡我特別請部長再去做一些瞭解，如果有什麼樣的疏失，我們也希望不要再犯同樣的錯誤。我們接下來還會有一些時間探討主要武器裝備採購產生的問題，這一部分先提出來，部長可以瞭解一下。"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，也跟主席建議一下，給我幾秒鐘，我做個簡單的說明。第一個，我要說的是，國軍絕對不會利用某個事件、利用這個時候，做平常做不到或者要強化的，這就很難聽了，利用這個危害……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我也補充一下，我不是說國軍，我說有心人。"],["邱部長國正：是，這是一個遺憾，後面防處以後，對於為什麼裝備要緊急採購，或採購項目為什麼價格不一樣，之後我們會派人再次跟委員很清楚地說明。事實上，有幾位委員也很關切，我們分別派海軍去，經過這樣說明以後，他也瞭解了。但我還是很感激委員對這這件事情關切，我們會把來龍去脈、為什麼會造成這個事情、後面補救的方法詳細跟委員報告，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬文君委員的發言。","接下來我們請羅美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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那就這些部分因為我想這個牽涉到我們後續還有非常多的武器裝備因為我們付出的我們的需求到目前為止美方可能還欠缺的還是非常非常多還沒有交給我們"},{"start":486.983,"end":494.027,"text":"所以就這兩個部分我們希望可以做一個平衡而不是他庫存的一直提供給我們那現在是有說明說是無償可是我們還是希望在後續比如說後勤的維保還有料配件他既然是庫存的料配件的取得也許也是我們要擔憂的"},{"start":507.894,"end":516.458,"text":"也請到時候在辦公室做一些說明就好那另外就是我們現在面臨到非常多的像越界的問題這個不會因為即使海巡的這個問題解決了以後它持續還是會發生不管是在我們的空域也好在我們的海域也好我們周邊的海疆也好其實都會不斷的發生那目前這個越界捕撈或者說像海巡署也證實了"},{"start":536.428,"end":561.13,"text":"之前他們的漁船已經進到我們六海里的一個地方而且中國的挖泥船也一直不斷的出沒在威嚇我們禁線制的這個水域那就這些狀況來看我們國防部要如何跟海巡這邊做一個適切的搭配因為像之前三艘大的漁船進來其實顯然"},{"start":562.932,"end":585.693,"text":"海巡已經沒有很多的人力資源可以去應付尤其除了像我剛剛講的除了像他如果進來的不是軍艦如果是他們最讓大家覺得威脅最深的就是小藍人他也不是軍艦可是他又是重型漁船至少都500噸以上"},{"start":587.415,"end":604.629,"text":"其實這個在在如果他在北中南各放20艘我們大概就疲於奔命那海巡在沒有辦法自己去面對處置的時候國防部這邊會有什麼樣的一個方向方式可以跟他們做一個銜接的處應處作為嗎"},{"start":606.09,"end":629.75,"text":"委員剛才問到一個重點,我們跟海軍怎麼樣搭配、怎麼樣互相協調問題。這平常我們有一個協定,要怎麼樣撞一下我們海軍會去支援。但是這個支援有個界定,它除非它有武裝,我們要以武裝來對它武裝。但目前為止,剛剛還有委員所假定的,這都是在法、在執法當中會遇到的。"},{"start":630.31,"end":654.165,"text":"那現在海巡有任何問題他跟我們聯絡平常情報就有交換都通聯的一旦要的話我們就要保持在一個範圍以內提供他旁邊還有什麼狀況或提供他要必要的資源的話更加接近或去做一個很有實質效果的幫他做一個防築但原則上講說只要對方沒有用軍事裝備的話我們國軍不疑"},{"start":658.208,"end":663.593,"text":"部長當然我們也不希望有太多的壓力給我們所有的我們國防部或者海巡因為我們也知道現有的一個處境的狀況可是因為現在慢慢的從過去24、12、6、3、2"},{"start":683.129,"end":687.574,"text":"他越來越近他如果即使不是軍艦可能對我們還是有一些壓力跟影響那就這個部分我們也希望除了在我們的國防單位海巡單位其實應該要去面對以外"},{"start":699.048,"end":718.219,"text":"怎麼樣去做更好的一個溝通因為我說美中的競爭這麼多剛剛部長也提到其實領導人應該要有智慧去做一個政策的決定然後怎麼樣再用各項的一個手段工具讓我們維持更安定"},{"start":718.699,"end":718.839,"text":"海龍海虎有"},{"start":746.261,"end":755.348,"text":"淺見的官士兵可能犧牲了那大家都不希望這樣的事情發生可是在這事件發生以後其實大家急著做的反而我覺得沒有很深刻的去探討他的核心的問題而是急著採購那你急著採購以後又是像海軍、空軍、陸軍對於山軍可能都有同時買那在落海、落水以後"},{"start":775.083,"end":775.123,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":799.161,"end":799.201,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":817.446,"end":837.878,"text":"用公開招標好多家都有資格所以我在這裡要特別強調的是我們不要利用不幸的事件做一些不對的事情在這裡我特別請部長再去做一些瞭解那如果有什麼樣的疏失我們也希望不要再犯同樣的這樣的錯誤我們接下來還會有一些時間來探討我們一些"},{"start":842.841,"end":865.84,"text":"主要的武器裝備的採購他產生的問題那這一部分先提出來請部長可以瞭解一下我跟委員報也跟主席建議一下我給幾秒我做一個簡單的說明第一個我要說的是國軍絕對不會利用某個事件利用這個時候做他平常做不到或要強化的不會這個就很難聽了利用這個危害部長我也補充一下我不是說國軍我說有心人"},{"start":872.565,"end":894.102,"text":"就想說我們都一個遺憾嘛那後面防處以後裡面為什麼裝備要緊急採購或採購項目為什麼價格不一樣這我們會派人再次再跟委員做一個很清楚的一個說明事實上有幾位委員也很關切我們也分別海軍派去以後經過這樣說明他也了解了"},{"start":894.562,"end":906.816,"text":"但我還是很感激委員對這些事情關切我們會把這個來龍去脈為什麼會造成這個事情然後後面補救的方法詳細跟委員做報告謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135f9769184e3ba2fa451d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a622361ff6ef9879315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，多偉大！請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。現在是看守內閣，應暫停不利於人民的政策，而就經濟部所主管的來講，就是不應該調漲電價。雖然一直講說4月，作為部長，對於在看守內閣的期間，真的是不應該調漲電價，這個就暫停，就留給新的內閣，也許你續任，也許你高升，就留給新的內閣，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想第一個，整個電價的審議本來就有機制，第二個，事實上現在還是連續執政，所以我想政策上應該要去做、要去考慮的事情，還是要去認真來執行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，當然看守內閣到底要怎麼做？目前比較明確的法律就是公務人員任用法第二十六條之一，這裡面規定「各機關首長於下列期間，不得任用或遷調人員：……六、憲法或法規未定有任期之中央各級機關政務首長，於總統競選連任未當選或未再競選連任時，自次屆該項選舉當選人名單公告之日起至當選人宣誓就職止。」這個是比較明確的法令，就是對於公務人員的任用，至於其他的，其實就是依過去的政策、過去的慣例去推動，這個部分也請部長來做參考。","行政院陳建仁院長就特別提到，雖然是號稱看守內閣，但會繼續提出福國利民的方案。所以有利於人民的，大家不會太在意，而且應該要去推動；但是不利於人民的，就應該交移給新的內閣。所以這個部分，還是要請部長三思，過去也不是沒有過，何況俄烏戰爭所帶來的影響也不是今年才開始，去年就產生了很大的影響，但是還是做了暫停的處理……"],["王部長美花：台電的穩健經營對整個臺灣的供電是非常重要的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然、當然，我們都知道。部長，你請回座，我請董事長。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：董事長好。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：民生方面，食、衣、住、行，尤其是糧食、水電、石油、天然氣是民生最重要的部分。所以中油公司的報告裡面提到布局再生能源，花蓮、臺東地熱區這個部分，因為時間的關係，就請董事長回去再提供目前花東地區地熱能的辦理情形，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["鄭天財Sra 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發言鄭天財委員嚴重的抗議主席這樣的那個要不要回答是董事長要不要回答是與他來接近這是主席的職權"},{"start":33.232,"end":40.139,"text":"請尊重主席好不好。 那您現在不質詢了嗎?"},{"start":40.139,"end":51.571,"text":"我當然要質詢啊。 要不要回答是董事長去決定的,不是你去決定的。 我沒有不讓他回答,我只是讓董事長私下來跟張委員報告。"},{"start":54.024,"end":76.141,"text":"這關乎國家安全我更在乎的是國家安全好嗎沒有影響到任何人的質詢權剛剛的時間是張委員的質詢時間已經截止了你可以提醒他時間到了而不是這樣子主席可以做才是的這是主席的職權好請那個部長來請王部長"},{"start":89.387,"end":105.513,"text":"部長好現在是看守內閣應暫停不利於人民的政策而就經濟部所主管的來講就是不應該調漲電價雖然一直講說事業作為部長"},{"start":116.636,"end":138.832,"text":"對於在看守內閣的期間真的是不應該調漲電價這個就暫停留給新的內閣也許你細任也許你高深就留給新的內閣可以嗎?"},{"start":140.487,"end":157.153,"text":"我想第一個就整個電價的審議本來就有機制那第二個事實上現在還是連續執政所以我想這個政策上應該要去做要去考慮的事情還是要去認真來執行是好當然這個看守內閣到底要怎麼做"},{"start":165.58,"end":187.405,"text":"法例目前法例比較明確的就是這個公務人員的用法826條之一這裡面各機關首長以下列期間不得任用或簽調人員憲法第6款憲法後法規未定有任期之中央各級機關政務所長以總統競選連任未當選"},{"start":192.284,"end":217.237,"text":"或未在競選連任時至次借該項選舉當選的名單公告之次日起至當選人先是就職者這個是比較明確的法律就是對於這個公務人員的一個任用那其他的其實就是過去的政策過去的"},{"start":219.372,"end":242.77,"text":"過去的慣例去推動這個部分請部長來做參考就我們行政院陳建仁院長就特別提到雖然是號稱看守內閣但會繼續提出扶國立民的方案所以有利人民大家不會"},{"start":244.622,"end":251.365,"text":"新的內閣所以這個部分還是要請部長三思過去也不是沒有過過去也不是沒有過何況二屋戰爭所帶來的影響也不是今年"},{"start":275.531,"end":276.452,"text":"來,董事長好。 阿文好。"},{"start":305.53,"end":326.392,"text":"這個民生、食衣住行尤其是水電、糧食、水電、石油、天然氣是民生最重要的這個部分所以你這個中油公司這裡面你的報告裡面提到這個部級再生能源"},{"start":327.762,"end":355.791,"text":"那花蓮台東地熱區這個部分請這個時間的關係就請董事長回去再提供這個目前的一個花東地區地熱能的辦理情形是好這裡面這個要謝謝忠友雖然有俄烏戰爭的影響但是對於"},{"start":358.465,"end":366.608,"text":"為了配合穩定物價政策,售價未配合油電、油氣價公式足以調整。"},{"start":378.893,"end":404.604,"text":"這個就是為了民生所以要請中油繼續的不要寫台電繼續的來去穩定這個相關的這些物價的政策所以這個部分要請你繼續協助好我要接下來的談的是原住民的就業的問題"},{"start":405.748,"end":430.649,"text":"原住民就業的問題看起來是跟你沒有關係事實上是有很大的這個你只要願意做就可以去做蔡總統在2015年8月1號這個提出的原住民族就業政策和保障上望的新的工作機會開創永續的原住民族經濟發展"},{"start":432.435,"end":454.681,"text":"他說要保障上望新的工作就業政府要負擔保障原住民就業的責任這個是一個蔡總統在2015年8月1日所提出來的所以這個部分我們看中油在112年"},{"start":457.379,"end":478.02,"text":"這個招考一般類有19個類別招考了828人請問一下這個董事長你有沒有印象有沒有特別針對原住民的招考的相關的規定"},{"start":479.281,"end":498.782,"text":"抱歉這個委員這個我再把資料再跟委員做說明但是依我了解政府公司不只是遵循法規我們其實包括在原住民的任用還有包括在一些特定人士的任用我們絕對都比法規要求的還要高那詳細資料我來了解一下再跟委員報告好這個"},{"start":503.595,"end":530.392,"text":"好就請提供105年到現在是歷年原住民經用的人數這個中油那113年的招考你們也要即將辦理對不對是我建議這個董事長這個能夠參考台電台電他就有特別"},{"start":531.837,"end":532.778,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"149848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231354e4cb9ded1d8ea9d9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6f3ee4f7ce62287085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:51:51 - 10:04:25","影片長度":"00:12:34","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":754,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:04:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:51:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時51分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦了，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：總裁好。總裁，拜讀了你今天的業務報告，內容當中預估今年CPI的部分是1.89%，GDP是3.12%，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：可是我這3年觀察你的預估值，包括CPI也好，或GDP也好，這有一個特性，也就是CPI的部分，通膨指數的部分都是在2%以下；GDP則都是2%以上，我發現都有這個特性，因為2%是一個很重要的門檻。","可是到我們回顧這2年，2022年你預估的CPI是多少？2021年的時候，預估是1.59%，但事實上2022年就變成2.95%；2022年的時候預估的GDP是多少？預估4.03%，但實際上是2.45%；到了去年2023年，CPI通膨的部分你是預估1.88，實際上是2.5%；2023年GDP的部分，你是預估2.53%，實際上是1.2%。特別是去年，該2%以下的，後來它超過，CPI變成2.5%；該2%以上的，GDP它變成2%以下，變成1.2%，所以去年就有人說，是不是可能會有停滯性通膨，當然是沒有那麼嚴重，但接近啦！有那種跡象啦！總裁，你今年的預估會準嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上，就是說……"],["郭委員國文：你前2年都漏氣了！而且你還有動用升息！"],["楊總裁金龍：我要誠實地跟委員報告，確實央行這幾年的預測都沒有很準確……"],["郭委員國文：都不準啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：也許我這樣子講，委員會認為我在推卸責任，事實上，全球每一個機構的預測都沒有準！"],["郭委員國文：你有比較過全球每一個機構的預測都沒有準？那你是比較不準的那一個還是比較接近準的那一個？"],["楊總裁金龍：也許我們會比較準，我們是不準，但是也比較準。"],["郭委員國文：有這麼接近不準的準嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！對！我跟委員報告，預測……"],["郭委員國文：可是臺灣人民不會去看其他機構，只會看你而已啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然！當然！但是我要跟委員報告，這幾年為什麼大家都是不準的，你要想想看喔！從中美貿易衝突之後，過來就是COVID-19、俄烏戰爭，美國supply chain、value chain的bottleneck……"],["郭委員國文：這就是考驗您的實力啊！總體經濟變化啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，那個時候Fed也就是因為它沒有預測得很準，而且它應該升息的時候沒有升息，後來Fed就被罵得很慘。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，不好意思，我要打斷你，因為那個真的是大問題，我沒有時間聽你說，雖然我很願意聽，但質詢時間非常寶貴。我現在就問你，明年你有沒有把握嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：明年，我現在就是說……"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛講的那個已經發生好幾年了，現在沒有新的國際情勢變數了！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：中美衝突已經衝突好幾年了，國際戰爭也一直在持續喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：對！對……"],["郭委員國文：所以在這種情況底下，在變數沒有變的情況底下，你保證這個3.12%跟1.89%可以達成嗎？明年我還會在這個委員會啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想，3.12%是比較容易啦！然後CPI的1.89%，就是2024年的1.89%，我跟委員報告，我們的1.89%沒有放進電價的部分。"],["郭委員國文：所以1.89%的挑戰性比較高、變數比較大，所以1.89%比較沒有把握；GDP3.12%的部分比較有把握？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我要跟委員報告，關於這個CPI，我們3月份的理監事會會很謹慎地去討論。"],["郭委員國文：真的要很謹慎，我知道，但是你都不會講到底會不會調，所以我不用問了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：接下來我要問，總裁，你不只這件事失準，我今天不是來給你漏氣的，之前你也是說2023年上半年房市會開始軟著陸，量先價行，我看了最近的一些報紙標題，連中經院對房市都說，2024上半年景氣的表現會看好，民間一些的地產網、一些的媒體都說以後會開綠燈，然後今天我拜讀了你的報告，就像我之前一直問你，為什麼資本一直集中在房地產，結果你今天報告竟然說是因為青安貸，總裁，千萬不要這樣寫啦！青安貸是政府體貼青年，給他居住正義的一個政策工具，結果青安貸所有的餘款，夯不啷噹加起來，我算了一下，7,929億的餘額，也不過占所有目前不動產占比13.7兆當中的0.57%，你在報告當中卻把它推給青安貸，這對青年、對政策都是一種否定啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！沒有！我們只是說……"],["郭委員國文：我真的沒有辦法接受你把青安貸變成是推高房價的一個幫兇。"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有說它是推高房價的幫兇，我沒有這樣子說。"],["郭委員國文：你沒有這樣寫，但你把它弄成是主要的原因，這樣不對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是！我們是說……"],["郭委員國文：我不只要罵你而已，我還要罵財政部。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！事實上，我跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：我來讓你看一下數字，不動產放款的比例，真的是往上攀升，目前高達37.4%。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：37.4%，是越來越高，也就是說，我們信用管制的結果，它越來越高，然後信義房屋那個指數的年增率也往上攀升，就相關的數字看起來就是沒有軟著陸，你的信用管制看起來是失靈了，沒有達到預期的效果，總裁我在這邊要拜託你了，你是不是要想想其他好的辦法，讓資本不要那麼集中。因為你報告過，之所以高房價的原因，是因為這些不動產的貸款，資本過度集中的關係所造成的結果，既然是這樣子，要如何把它降低呢？唯有你啊！還會有誰？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員……"],["郭委員國文：你是總體經濟的操盤手啊！怎麼會怪青安貸，你要想辦法啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，不用把那個……"],["郭委員國文：以前我們採信用管制，從生產方，就是建商你也做信用管制；從消費方，第二個房屋你也規定貸款成數七成，第三個房屋你也規定貸款成數四成，這些你都做了，你還有沒有什麼遺漏的地方？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，房地產要健全發展，如果要單獨靠中央銀行的話……"],["郭委員國文：不是單獨靠你，我是說總體經濟啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：那麼國發會就不會來一個健全房屋方案，你看看健全房屋方案參與的部會，中央銀行只是其中之一而已。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，你不要扯到那邊去啦！作為一個總體經濟的操盤手而言，你還有沒有其他方式？譬如是不是還有其他利率？我舉個簡單例子，過去除了貸款成數的限制，不要讓他過度之外，利率也是一個變數，這有沒有可能？條件有沒有再調整的空間？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，利率基本上是對付通膨的……"],["郭委員國文：不是，我講的不是整體利率，是特定利率，也就是交易方的利率，這也是特定對象，譬如買方。"],["楊總裁金龍：問題就在這裡。第一，利率自由化，這是銀行要跟客戶charge利率……"],["郭委員國文：如果利率自由化，利率不能作為政策工具的話，那你還有其他政策工具嗎，總裁？"],["楊總裁金龍：新加坡在對付房價就兩個工具而已，第一個工具就是稅；第二個工具是選擇性信用管制，就是這兩個！"],["郭委員國文：對！就是這兩個工具，所以如果稅不在你手上，那你就是要信用管制，看還有沒有其他空間……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還會檢討……"],["郭委員國文：還會檢討？所以你還有武器沒有端出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還會檢討。"],["郭委員國文：還有？還有其他的對策嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還會滾動檢討。"],["郭委員國文：還有？最近會不會考慮推出？"],["楊總裁金龍：3月份我們……"],["郭委員國文：會討論？有沒有新的對策，做新的信用管制？不然資金過度集中，利率居高不下，甚至逐漸攀升，越管制結果還高升到37.4%！"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，我們理監事會每次都會就利率與選擇性信用管制討論……"],["郭委員國文：對，討論很久，我知道這兩個是關鍵，雙率是關鍵。拉回來說，我再提供一個數字讓您參考。最近 ETF很夯，從幾千億跑到兩兆！兩兆看起來好像很多，但嚴格來說，就總體存款而言，兩兆算什麼？臺幣存款從2020年開始，每年增加三兆，到現在已經48.57兆了，所以這兩兆算什麼？根本沒什麼啊！可是如果讓這兩兆跑到房地產去，那不是更嚴重嗎？總裁，你認同我的看法嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子，股市跟房地產也有關聯……"],["郭委員國文：對，有一些連動性，至於是正連動或負連動就很難講了。"],["楊總裁金龍：股市如果上漲，對房地產也有支撐力道……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我最後再問總裁一件事情，請你也稍微研究一下。因為國際 QE、中美衝突、臺商回流、資金跑回來，以致現在減少對外投資意願，讓資金過度泛濫，游資過多！到底游資有多少，我私底下再請教您那個規模是多少。你測試出來後到底掌握到多少，以至於說游資有多到推高房市，推高股市，推高CPI，推高物價的可能性？在這種情況底下，我要請總裁去思考一下，有沒有除了升息以外的政策工具，可以讓游資減少，讓房市、股市，包括物價在內，不會因為游資過多，讓臺灣因國際QE的關係受到影響而堆高？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個問題我們中央銀行，還有理監事會都會很嚴肅地去討論它。"],["郭委員國文：嚴肅討論？所以一切等待3月份中央銀行理監事會的結論，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：這當然只是其中之一而已，是不是？不過理監事會是我們這一次比較接近的一個重點。"],["郭委員國文：有關理監事會的重點，你可以就這部分提供一份書面給本席嗎？我好好來拜讀一下，看你要如何透過除了升息以外的手段，讓資金不要過多，其他如投資標等等都可以。"],["楊總裁金龍：可以。"],["郭委員國文：可以？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以。"],["郭委員國文：一個月，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，可以。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝總裁，感謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請李彥秀李委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.177218750000002,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.25721875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.43284375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.38596875,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.48721875,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.65596875,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.28034375,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.297218750000003,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.74346875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.11471875,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.73409375,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.05471875,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.13034375,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.23159375,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.31596875,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.69971875,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.01159375,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.517843750000004,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.02784375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.267843750000004,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.064093750000005,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.24534375,"end":67.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.29471875,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.63221875,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.24784375,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.46721875,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":70.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.75784375,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.50846875,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.77846875,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.57909375,"end":84.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.97971875,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.40159375,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.61659375,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.74534375,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.31034375,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.33971875,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.98096875,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.87534375000001,"end":106.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.10721875,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.14096875000001,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.98471875000001,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.56596875000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.58284375000001,"end":114.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.12284375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.46034375,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.49409375,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.42221875000001,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.35409375,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.73284375000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.57471875000002,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.73471875,"end":141.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.37596875,"end":141.49409375000002},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拜讀你今天的這個業務報告內容當中預估今年的這個CPI的部分是1.89 GDP是3.12對不對可是我每次這三年觀察你的這個預估值包括CPA也好或GDP也好有一個特性也就是CPI的部分通膨的這個指數的部分都是在2以下"},{"start":37.106,"end":49.238,"text":"那GDP的時候都是2以上我發現你都有這個特性因為2是一個很重要的門檻可是到我們回顧這兩年2022年你預估的CPI是多少2021年的時候是預估1.59但事實上2020就變2.95"},{"start":60.881,"end":84.567,"text":"阿2022的時候預估的這個GDP多少?你是預估4.03但實質上呢是2.45到去年2023CPI彭彭的部分你去預估1.88實質上呢是2.5然後呢2023的部分呢GDP的部分呢你是預估2.53實質上是1.2特別是去年啦"},{"start":87.188,"end":101.99,"text":"該2以下的他超過2GDP變成2.5該2以上的GDP他變成2以下變1.2所以去年就有人說是不是可能會有停滯性通膨當然是沒有那麼嚴重啦那接近啦有那種跡象啦"},{"start":103.513,"end":126.975,"text":"總裁,你今天的預估會準嗎?我跟委員報告,事實上就是說...你前兩年都漏氣耶對,沒有錯而且你還有動用升息耶我要誠實要跟委員報告就確實就是說央行這幾年的一個預測都沒有很準確都不準啊對不對都不準"},{"start":127.415,"end":152.544,"text":"但是呢我當然啦這個也許我這樣子講委員會認為就是說我推卸責任事實上呢全球每一個機構的預測都沒有準那也因為你有比較過全國每一個機構都沒有準那你是比較不準的不準的那一個還是比較接近準的那一個也許我們會比較準我們是不準但是比較準"},{"start":154.144,"end":172.083,"text":"有這麼接近不準的準嗎?對對對對因為這個是我跟委員報告喔預測齁你不要台灣人民不會去看其他機構啦只會看你而已啦當然當然當然但是呢就是說我要跟委員報告就是說這幾年為什麼就是說大家都不準你要想想看喔"},{"start":173.384,"end":184.507,"text":"從中美貿易衝突之後過來就是COVID-19二屋戰爭那美國的battle neck supply chain的battle neck我跟委員報告那個時候呢"},{"start":191.289,"end":195.792,"text":"總裁不好意思我打斷你啊因為那個是真的大問題我沒有時間聽你說但我很願意聽啊但質詢時間非常寶貴我現在就問你嘛明年你有沒有把握嗎"},{"start":214.077,"end":221.084,"text":"你剛剛講的那個已經發生好幾年了喔現在沒有新的國際情勢變數了喔中美衝突已經衝突好幾年了喔國際戰爭也是在持續喔所以說在這種情況底下變數沒有變的情況底下你保證這一個3.12跟1.89可以達成嗎"},{"start":237.189,"end":247.136,"text":"我想這個3.12比較容易啦比較容易我在想這個3.12是比較容易那然後呢這個CPI的這個1.89就是說2024年的1.89我們的1.89沒有放這個電價"},{"start":256.102,"end":262.204,"text":"沒有放電價所以說1.89的挑戰性比較高變數比較大所以1.89比較沒有把握GDP3.12的部分比較有把握但是委員我要跟委員報告就是說這個CPI呢我們這下3個月份的理監事會會很謹慎的去討論它真的要很謹慎我知道但是你都不會講到底會不會調這我不用問"},{"start":283.849,"end":307.247,"text":"接下來我問了說你不只這件失準欸總裁我今天不是來給你繞開的你看之前你也是說2023年上半年房市會開始軟著陸亮先駕行我先看最近的一些報紙標題連中金院喔他對房市啊說2024上半年景氣的表現會看好"},{"start":308.408,"end":324.21,"text":"一般的民間的一些地產王啊一些媒體啊都說哦以後會開綠燈然後呢今天呢我拜讀你的報告呢你說哦就像我之前一直問你為什麼資本啊一直集中在房地產結果你今天的報告居然寫說哦是因為清安貸"},{"start":325.445,"end":355.047,"text":"總裁千萬不要這樣寫啦清安貸是政府一個體貼青年給他居住正義的一個政策工具結果清安貸所有的餘款夯噗噗噗加起來我算了一下7929億的餘額也不過占所有目前啊這不動產的占比13.7兆當中的0.57%啊你報告當中你把推給清安貸這對這青年對政策都是一種否定啊"},{"start":355.287,"end":356.268,"text":"我來讓你看一下那個數字"},{"start":383.449,"end":389.773,"text":"不動場的販款的比例真的往上攀升下一頁目前高達37.4%下一頁"},{"start":394.011,"end":394.231,"text":"總裁我這邊要"},{"start":413.57,"end":433.115,"text":"拜託你了你是不是想想其他好的辦法讓資本不要那麼集中因為你報告過說之所以高房價的原因是因為這些不動產的貸款資本過度於集中的關係所造成的結果那既然是這樣子要如何把它降低唯有你啊還有誰因為總體經濟的操盤手啊怎麼怪清安單你要想辦法啊"},{"start":438.917,"end":443.862,"text":"委員 啊 委員 不用齁 就說把那個什麼 把那個 如果說 報委員 如果說"},{"start":458.937,"end":476.123,"text":"我房地產這個要要健全發展如果說要要單獨靠中央銀行的話呢那麼國發會就是不會就是說是來一個健全房屋方案"},{"start":477.483,"end":502.691,"text":"總裁不要扯到那邊去啦你作為一個總體經濟的一個操盤手來說你還沒有其他的方式嘛譬如講是不是還有其他的利率我舉一個簡單的例子過去我們貸款陳述之外的限制之外不要讓它過渡其中之外利率也是一個變數有沒有可能嘛"},{"start":503.892,"end":506.754,"text":"我要跟委員報告就是說利率基本上是對物通膨的不是我不是說那個"},{"start":517.168,"end":543.582,"text":"不是全體的利率啦是特定的利率就交易方的利率交易方交易方也是特定對象喔交易方譬如買方問題就是在這裡啦第一個利率自由化這個是利率呢銀行要跟要跟那個客戶charge這個利率呢你如果利率自由化利率不能做一個偵測工具的話那你還有其他偵測工具嗎"},{"start":544.682,"end":564.776,"text":"總裁所以呢你看看在新加坡呢他在兌付房價的話他就兩個工具而已第一個工具呢就是稅第二個工具選擇性信用管制他就是這兩個對這兩個工具那你信用你如果這樣子稅不在你的手頭上你就是要信用管制的部分看還有沒有其他工具我們還會檢討還會檢討還會檢討所以說你還有武器還沒有端出來我們還會檢討還有還有布我們滾動你還有其他的布束嗎我們還會滾動還有"},{"start":573.562,"end":590.151,"text":"還有那最近會不會考慮推出來我們我們3月份呢我們會會討論有沒有新的部署做新的新的新的管制出來不然問你資本基金用過度集中應該不下逐漸攀升啊你月管制的結果還高升到37.4%啊我跟委員報告吼我們的理監事會呢"},{"start":596.714,"end":620.205,"text":"每次都會舊利率跟選擇性信用管制討論對討論很久我知道這兩個是關鍵雙率是關鍵拉回來說我再就一個數字再讓您參考最近一貼符很夯嘛幾千億跑到兩兆兩兆看起來好像很多但兩兆嚴格來說就總體的這個存款來說算什麼台幣的存款從2020開始每年增加三兆欸"},{"start":621.425,"end":639.267,"text":"增加到現在已經48.57兆了這兩兆算什麼根本沒什麼可是你如果讓這兩兆跑到房地產去那不是更嚴重嗎總裁你認同我的看法嗎我想是這樣子就是說那個股市跟房地產也有關聯"},{"start":641.089,"end":656.666,"text":"對 有些連動性啦但是正聯動負聯動也很難講因為你的股市如果是上漲的時候呢他對這個房地產他也有支撐的力道沒有總裁我最後再一件事情請你也上位研究一下"},{"start":657.687,"end":683.717,"text":"我認為就是因為啊國際的QE的狀況中美衝突台商回流資金跑回來他現在減少對外投資的意願以至於資金現在過度氾濫油資過多到底油資有多少我私底下再請教您多少啦那個規模啊有多少成長讓你有測試出來掌握以至於說油資再多推高了房市推高了股市推高了CPI推高了物價的可能性那在這種情況的現狀底下我要請總裁去思考一下"},{"start":684.717,"end":710.885,"text":"還有沒有除了升息以外的政策工具可以讓這個油資減少而讓房市股市還有包括物價不用因為油資過多還國際的QE的關係而受到影響而堆高委員這個問題我們中央銀行還有理監事會都會去很嚴肅的去討論他嚴肅討論所以我一切等待3月份的這個中央會議員和理事會的結論是不是"},{"start":712.063,"end":726.335,"text":"當然啦 這個是其中之一而已啦 是不是當然啦就是說禮監事會就是說我們這一次很比較接近的一個重點禮監事的重點那你這份的部分可以一份書面給本席嘛我好好來拜讀一下"},{"start":727.486,"end":728.246,"text":"下一位質詢請李彥秀李委員"}]}},{"id":"149847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231351afeeefab3b9af223bab39d7bda6ec6df8ba9b0039caa7a62aad447d12a835725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:55:14 - 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謝謝主席我想就是我這邊先簡單做因為這邊在場有很多都是我以前司法官訓練所的指導老師還有以前一起辦案的戰友們我想說問題在哪裡我們都很清楚我今天想提一個東西就是說公欲善其事必先利其器我非常的清楚現在打詐遇到一個很大的問題就是"},{"start":35.583,"end":35.843,"text":"主席"},{"start":50.743,"end":51.964,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":78.739,"end":88.245,"text":"這是我們現在會面臨的問題所以請大家瞭解一件事法定型的加重再怎麼加重你很難遏止他們不做壞事"},{"start":89.557,"end":116.63,"text":"法官的宣告型也不一定跟得上來法條定得很重法官不一定判重所以到最後我們一直在加重立法的刑度達不到效果我們真的能夠有效果的當然第一個法官判決要加重第二個你要給檢方給警察足夠的偵查工具他才有辦法積極的能夠完成打詐的效果我們請那個邱姓名檢察官來我先幾個問題先請教你那個"},{"start":119.981,"end":125.242,"text":"目前法務部對於基層檢察官有沒有提供足夠的辦案資源還有職職上的協助"},{"start":141.585,"end":141.605,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":159.002,"end":159.562,"text":"現在面臨最大的問題目前提供實質上的協助"},{"start":171.974,"end":172.455,"text":"主席"},{"start":189.816,"end":192.259,"text":"傳統早期在88年、89年設置的假事務官除了一般傳統法律人之外他們是有電子資訊組的"},{"start":204.497,"end":204.677,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":222.66,"end":222.88,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":241.715,"end":241.995,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":258.4,"end":285.8,"text":"人力之外那個數位採證室目前成效好不好好那有關於數位採證室的部分那其實設置的部分因為這樣人頭的案子進來之後然後加上我們會請尤其有些被告會提供一些手機的部分那我們當然會請那個地檢署因為地檢署現在都有設置數位採證室除了就是我們所知道的像像刑事局或者是電話局他們有數位採證之外那因為為了去紓解他們的"},{"start":286.46,"end":286.48,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":304.438,"end":329.961,"text":"那我請教一下那個黃副局長就是目前這個因為外交上面的問題然後還有就是沒有兩岸共打那這一塊我們將來怎麼有沒有補位的因為我想今天雖然是公聽會但是我希望聽到因為大家講的東西不一定是我們認為真正的核心問題那我想說我請教您一件事情就是你可不可以跟我們大家講一下"},{"start":331.102,"end":343.497,"text":"兩岸公島現在沒有繼續了嘛那也沒有外交的問題那現在有一些有沒有什麼補位的方式還有另外就是錢會出去國外IP在國外有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":345.273,"end":372.595,"text":"跟委員報告前會出去國外目前確實是比較困難的地方因為歹徒用跳板用VPN去做這個隱匿身份確實是比較難以追查不過我們現在已經在科技偵查法也好通訊保障局偵查法也好一直在想辦法把一些相關的紀錄跟流量可以做一定的處理那未來我們是有信心可以去增加這個查到的機率那當然是"},{"start":373.355,"end":381.984,"text":"司法互助及兩岸共打這都是我們要持續努力的目標也是我們政府應該努力的目標今天不是質詢啦就是說我想說點出幾個因為我看了大家的那個報告還有"},{"start":393.681,"end":407.412,"text":"民眾在乎的雖然說第一個詐騙案件數這麼高是一個重點第二個每一個被騙的人都問我一個東西我的錢要不要的回來所以我們國家是不是應該在這塊上面要用點心力"},{"start":408.813,"end":436.009,"text":"現在IP在國外我們就拿他沒辦法錢匯出國外我們也拿他沒辦法但是被害人他不是在乎他的主要在乎不是這個人被判多久而是我的錢拿不拿得回來但是我們一直著重在我們要怎麼樣加這些人的刑度大家忘了一件事這些辛苦的人民他的錢拿不回來所以我剛剛請教大家的問題其實中國一個最核心的問題就在這裡"},{"start":437.557,"end":437.577,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":460.669,"end":460.689,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":482.213,"end":483.234,"text":"謝謝吳召偉在這裡也謝謝剛剛專委員的代理主持"}]}},{"id":"149846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135c2cfdcc5a448b89e836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6c13a165974515a3f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:49:12 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Too」的事件，也因此促成了不管是政府部門還是民間單位，就自己單位內部的性平事件處理程序都進行了一些修改，我們甚至修訂了性平三法。我有注意到我們的政府部會，文化部也就文化部過去的補助，倘若補助的對象是經過調查明確確實的性平事件加害人，假設他是符合這樣的要件，文化部已經修改了相關要點，會針對過去曾經的補助視情節輕重來進行撤銷補助。我們國科會有沒有過相關的討論？就是就國科會自己的性平事件的申訴及懲戒要點，我們有沒有過相關的討論？"],["吳主任委員政忠：討論是有，但是那個案件，我目前還沒有接到這樣的陳情，我們有修一些規定，因為的確性平應該是滿重要的，我也滿重視的。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委，我是認為你們可以去參考文化部相關要點的修訂，當然是強調一定是要經過調查，已經是有……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們處長說我們有參考文化部的去做修正……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們有在參考嘛，所以我們的性平的申訴及懲戒要點目前已經修改了？"],["彭處長麗春：是，我們在去年11月已經修改我們的作業規定，就是計畫的主持人如果有違反性平，也是視情節輕重，我們會進行相關的懲處。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這個部分我希望能夠把資料提供給我們。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：我認為這是非常地重要，因為整體的性平環境也是支持科學人才能夠繼續走下去很重要的一個基礎。","再來要跟主委關心的，也是國人非常關心的，我們有晶創臺灣方案，對不對？這個計畫是10年計畫，我們預計要投入3,000億的經費來執行。其中有一個計畫是希望能夠透過我們的半導體學院來進行海外培訓中心的設立，目前有沒有已經在洽談中的，或是已經預計可能會在哪邊來成立我們第一所海外技術中心？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個緣起當然就是因為臺灣最近半導體全世界非常矚目，中東歐幾國，包括德國、法國，我在前二年去的時候，他們相關部會的部長也都滿期待，我們也覺得這個應該是臺灣一個機會，也就是說我們可以去布局全球，趁臺灣半導體非常強的時候。歐洲有一些中小型國家，事實上，它的IC design、它的 talents也都還不錯，我們在那邊設的時候就是訓練他們一些比較基礎的IC 設計，如果是中高階我們就把他引到臺灣來，這個在最近應該會有定案。我們會在某一個國家的一個城市，那個就能聚集周邊的國家，因為我們不可能每個國家都設一個基地，把它當成打前站的基地，有，最近應該會有一些公布。"],["吳委員沛憶：最近可能就會有第一案消息的出現？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們有沒有預計大約要成立幾個海外培訓中心呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：今年我們是一個到二個。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年一至二個，好，我想這個計畫非常地重要，我們也非常地期待。","接下來要跟主委關心的是，我們除了高階的科研人才以外，國科會針對科學知識科普往下紮根也是有相關的計畫，也很支持，其中我有注意到的是我們跟臺鐵有合作一個科普列車，這個計畫我覺得非常地成功，因為我們是邀集了國高中生來擔任老師，然後讓小學生來參與，上了火車之後，學生在車上可以進行實驗的體驗，這個科普列車目前已經進行了幾年，又去過了哪些地點呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該已經差不多七、八年了，至於地點，它是環繞臺灣，現在有30個車站，除了中小學學生以外，還有企業也來一起參與，所以我想這個幅度是滿大的，未來我想，我知道很多委員都希望自己選區的車站也要去，我們儘量讓更多的地方可以參與。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，就是執行的成效大家都覺得很好，大家也都很希望這個列車可以走進更多的地方，所以我們也很支持，也希望這個計畫有機會可以來擴增，像我知道在臺北是從臺北車站出發，然後有到新北市板橋車站，這當中其實就會經過我的選區萬華火車站，我們也非常希望有一天這個科普列車有機會可以開進萬華。","最後要跟主委關心的是，國人也非常關心的太空中心，太空中心是蔡英文總統也非常重視的，去年底的時候，我看到針對國家太空科技發展長程計畫三期，去年小英總統曾經說過要來加碼，預算要加碼增加至超過400億，吳主委您去年底也說過，所以要對太空三期計畫進行修正以及優化，其中就是要加入我們的低軌通訊衛星。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前針對這個預算的增加以及時間的延長有沒有一個初步的版本？有沒有預計什麼時候要來拍板？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個會儘快，事實上，我們太空三期是2018、2019那個時候定的，那個時候還沒有低軌通訊衛星，臺灣以前從來也沒有做過通訊衛星，所以增加的預算應該通訊衛星是一個大宗。另外一個就是我們的火箭發射基地跟火箭的研發，以前也不能做，現在應該是可以來進行。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個計畫的優化及修正今年會不會出來？"],["吳主任委員政忠：會。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年會出來嘛！我們希望可以趕快看到這樣的一個計畫。","再來還要關心的是我們的國家發射場，國家發射場目前籌備的進度是不是會後可以提供資料給我？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，沒有問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，吳主委請回。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.14346875,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.47596875,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.509718750000001,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.45971875,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.67909375,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.73596875,"end":95.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.18909375000001,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.90409375,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.03909375,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.70221875000001,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.74784375000002,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.76721875,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.73596875,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.64159375,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.72159375,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.46346875,"end":305.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.70034375,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.25909375000003,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.98721875,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":343.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.23471875,"end":352.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.38159375000004,"end":348.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.12346875000003,"end":398.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.68159375000005,"end":373.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.43159375000005,"end":379.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.97284375000004,"end":419.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.96534375000005,"end":462.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.38471875000005,"end":473.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.69221875000005,"end":467.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.29034375000003,"end":476.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.76659375,"end":519.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.62721875000005,"end":478.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.41159375,"end":480.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.69846875,"end":508.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.35909375,"end":538.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.42784375,"end":548.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.85659375,"end":621.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.55534375,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.00971875,"end":646.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.27159375,"end":652.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.0053437500001,"end":650.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.3172187499999,"end":652.33409375},{"spea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too的事件"},{"start":252.12,"end":271.91,"text":"也因此促成了不管是政府部門還是民間的單位就自己單位內部的性平事件處理程序都進行了一些修改我們甚至去修訂了性平三法那我有注意到我們的政府部會文化部也就呢這個文化部過去的補助倘若這個補助的對象他有發生經過調查明確確實的性平事件的加害人假設他是"},{"start":280.854,"end":280.914,"text":"吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":307.642,"end":317.492,"text":"討論是有,但是那個案件我目前是還沒有這個接到這樣的這個陳情。那我們有修一些規定,因為的確這個性評應該是蠻重要,我也蠻重視。"},{"start":322.395,"end":322.855,"text":"吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":353.934,"end":372.359,"text":"我希望能夠來把資料提供給我們我認為這是非常的重要因為整體的性平環境也是支持科學人才能夠繼續的走下去很重要一個基礎再來要跟主委關心的是也是國人非常關心的是我們有精創台灣方案"},{"start":372.919,"end":378.161,"text":"這個計劃是10年計劃我們預計要投入3000億來的經費來執行其中呢我們有一個計劃是我們希望能夠透過我們的半導體的學院來進行海外的培訓中心的設立那目前呢有沒有已經已經有洽談中的或是已經預計可能會在哪邊來成立我們第一所的海外技術中心"},{"start":399.968,"end":419.234,"text":"這個緣起當然就是因為台灣最近半導體全世界非常矚目那中東歐幾國包括德國法國我在前兩年去的時候他們相關部會的部長也都蠻期待那我們也是覺得說這個應該是台灣一個機會也就是說我們可以去佈局全球"},{"start":420.634,"end":420.654,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":446.505,"end":446.525,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":463.648,"end":477.698,"text":"最近可能就會有第一案的這個出現,消息的出現。那我們有沒有預計大約要成立幾個海外的培訓中心呢?我們今年是一個到兩個。今年一至兩個。我想這個計畫會非常的重要,所以我們也非常的期待。"},{"start":483.121,"end":483.781,"text":"議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":504.532,"end":518.973,"text":"國高中生來擔任老師然後讓小學生來參與上了火車之後學生在車上可以來可能進行一個實驗的體驗那這個科普列車我們目前是已經進行了幾年然後我們去過了哪些地點呢"},{"start":519.414,"end":547.816,"text":"現在已經差不多七八年了那那個地點它是環繞台灣現在有30個車站那除了中小學學生以外還有這個企業也來一起參與所以我想這個是一個蠻這個幅度蠻大的那未來我想我知道很多這個委員都有希望說他那個站也要去我們盡量來讓更多的這個地方可以參與"},{"start":549.057,"end":557.962,"text":"對 就是知心的成效大家都覺得很好大家也都很希望說這個列車可以走進更多的地方所以我們也很支持但也希望這個計畫有機會可以來擴增像我知道是我們在台北有從台北車站出發"},{"start":564.185,"end":564.205,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":580.496,"end":580.516,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":597.023,"end":621.751,"text":"的預算要來加碼增加至超過400億那吳主委您去年底也說過所以呢要來進行對這個太空三級計畫進行修正以及優化其中就是要來加入我們的低軌通訊衛星目前我們針對這個預算的增加以及這個時間的延長有沒有已經有一個初步的版本的有沒有預計什麼時候要來拍板"},{"start":623.492,"end":645.883,"text":"會盡快,事實上我們太空三期是2018-19那時候訂的,那個時候還沒有低軌通訊衛星,台灣以前從來也沒有做過通訊衛星,那個增加預算應該通訊衛星是一個大宗,另外一個就是我們的火箭發射基地跟火箭的研發,以前也不能做,現在應該是可以來進行。"},{"start":647.358,"end":647.378,"text":"謝謝吳沛憶"}]}},{"id":"149845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231359946698cbd5c2ee008cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a619ddf0aee35279f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"09:49:39 - 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那我們這個SRF我們燃燒出很多有毒的物質 那我們這個標準我們的綠的含量是人家歐盟的兩倍 共的含量更是高達數十倍 所以我們的SRF根本就不能稱之為綠能乾淨的能源 所以這一點我希望說要跟我們社會大眾來釐清"},{"start":120.365,"end":126.629,"text":"對所以我們要釐清啦因為很多人會誤以為我們台灣的SRF好像是綠能所以今天透過部長來瞭解因為SRF它碳排這麼嚴重排放出這麼多有毒的物質所以我們覺得我們這個SRF應該要被抵制"},{"start":142.998,"end":166.748,"text":"那我也不知道我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦還有我們經濟部長王美花還打算在我們桃園要蓋3家的SRF發電廠我是希望不要犧牲我們桃園人的費不要用我們的費來發電不過跟涂委員報告一下就是說這裡面可能有一些誤解事實上包括歐盟"},{"start":167.828,"end":183.682,"text":"美国日本也都有在使用srf他的着眼点不是说他并没有排放任何包括二氧化碳或者其他我只要证实而是srf不是绿能就好了对对好那所以我们srf源头"},{"start":184.322,"end":185.203,"text":"我印象中大概29家啦齁"},{"start":207.166,"end":228.811,"text":"那沒關係我們爭取時間那我跟部長報告據我們瞭解全台灣有53間的製造商有11間的鍋爐使用場那如果這樣不知道我們署長還是我們署長這邊知不知道這麼多的製造商跟這麼多的鍋爐使用場有幾間在桃園"},{"start":231.838,"end":239.582,"text":"是就是我們是就這個呃全國的一個數量統計那因為桃園呃還有幾個現實好沒關係所以署長這沒關係因為時間的問題我跟大家報因為這我們都調查過有5間製造商在桃園然後有5間的鍋爐使用場在在桃園"},{"start":249.887,"end":279.117,"text":"所以本席認為不是說桃園不應該有但是你想想看這麼高的比例而且有一半SRF的鍋爐使用場都在桃園我覺得這個完全不符合的使用比例的原則而且我們桃園現在已經有五大火力發電廠現在中油三接工程也在進行而且還打算在我們桃科園區再增加三接SRF發電廠我希望能夠注重"},{"start":279.597,"end":284.382,"text":"我們全台灣人民的健康注重桃園人的健康希望我們這個我們環境部能夠重視不要讓我們桃園成為我們全台灣空氣污染的第一名因為這個為桃園的健康我覺得我們應該要在這邊發聲還有請問一下我們一頓SF"},{"start":300.017,"end":314.328,"text":"這個替代能源替代0.86噸的煤一噸的我們的SRF可以替代0.86噸的煤但是SRF的成分比煤更複雜對不對"},{"start":316.349,"end":338.803,"text":"是所以在歐盟來講齁他們把SRF當作一個產品分類所以他比沒複雜嘛對不對對一定比沒複雜所以我們前面已經討論過燃燒SRF如果沒有管控好會產生很多嚴重的代藥性等有毒的物質那針對這一部分我想問一下我們環境部有沒有什麼因應的辦法給這個圖文報告事實上"},{"start":343.806,"end":350.653,"text":"以往環境部對SRF的概念是不是從產品端反而是燃燒之後有有我們已經想要跟歐盟一樣把SRF分類現在跟在做延伸"},{"start":359.582,"end":382.807,"text":"好那我跟部長報告在去年7月的時候你們就說要解決社會大眾的疑慮提出SRF的三個修正法案可是到今年你們的立法計畫完全沒有提出半年過去了所以從部長這邊我知道表示這個法案還沒有提出來對不對給涂權報告因為我的觀念跟以往已經"},{"start":384.128,"end":405.739,"text":"還沒有到環境部的時候的做法有改變我告訴他們SRF要做產品分類以往是沒有做產品分類所以部長目前還沒有提出嘛對我只要了解目前還沒有提出嘛對不對我們自己部內已經有把產品分類都做好我希望盡快來提出因為去年台中大理長興能源失智違法製造這個SRF"},{"start":406.98,"end":421.81,"text":"然後也沒有做好我們污染防治這違法的情形非常嚴重那我想請問一下環境部知道這個案例嗎給委員報告我們發現以往的確有一些問題就是說包括要增設SRF廠他只輸面"},{"start":423.083,"end":437.152,"text":"阿記畫書就好了所以我們現在修訂除了書面審查之外還要現看還要試車都要去看所以又增加後面兩道的關卡所以將來將來會進行三階段審查對不對書審試運轉跟現看對不對是是是那我們這個中央地方會審機制建立了嗎"},{"start":445.543,"end":458.821,"text":"有事實上給我們報告這個環境部跟地方環保局事實上關係跟好那請問我們剛剛我們部長講的審查辦法請問公布了沒有然後有幾家已經通過審查辦法了"},{"start":459.636,"end":461.917,"text":"我們新修訂的辦法應該還沒有公佈了嗎?所以還沒有公佈嗎?現在有沒有哪些廠商已經經過這個辦法審查的?所以其實還沒有正式審查有廠商已經經過你這審查辦法通過的嗎?"},{"start":489.569,"end":504.405,"text":"還沒有嘛對不對所以我說希望我們這個盡快來進行這53家燃料棒的製造商還有11間的鍋爐使用場我們環境部目前看到都還沒有用這個審查機制來加強審查"},{"start":505.586,"end":519.004,"text":"我們希望我們能夠盡快來處理因為我相信全台灣目前像我們剛剛講的長芯能源這類的污染源的未爆彈我相信非常非常多我希望大家未雨綢繆不要像我們蘇丹紅一樣"},{"start":521.527,"end":521.807,"text":"好,謝謝涂委員"}]}},{"id":"149844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135997521e9d471dca151d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6d104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:45:35 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09:57:30","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":715,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:57:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:45:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。你跟主計長最近有見面討論過你要的1,500億這件事了嗎？"],["王部長美花：其實經濟部跟主計總處都有密切在聯繫。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長今天說，目前沒有看到經濟部的方案，所以他目前沒辦法決定。媒體說他在躲你，你要去要1,500億，他躲起來對不對？"],["王部長美花：不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你們兩個坐下來談過了沒有？"],["王部長美花：我們其實都有在做整體的溝通討論。"],["張委員啓楷：所以他沒有躲你？"],["王部長美花：沒有啦！不會。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有躲起來的話，為什麼他說到目前沒看到經濟部的案子？"],["王部長美花：我再確認一下相關同仁聯繫的情況。"],["張委員啓楷：他的意思就是沒看到案子，所以他沒辦法決定要給你多少錢，他今天說的是稅收賸餘只剩下1,500億啦，不是以前大家說的還有3,000多億，他說現在能用的只有1,500億，你要跟他要1,500億，他就講了兩個點，他說，我口袋裡就沒錢了，全部給你就沒有賸餘啦！第二個，他說他要編114年（明年）的預算，他就有困難了，那現在怎麼辦？現在剩1,500億，你全部拿走，他又有困難，那是電價會漲得很高嗎？"],["王部長美花：院裡面怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策，當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在有兩件事情，第一個，你趕快找他，這是第一項，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，他竟然說沒看到方案，你趕快把方案給他。現在給你一個時間點，你現在公開跟他喊話，你沒有1,500億，電價要漲多少？"],["王部長美花：沒有，這個當然審議委員會會去計算。"],["張委員啓楷：不公開喊話，那趕快做剛剛講的兩件事情。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：趕快約他、趕快碰面。第二，方案趕快給他，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個也很重要，現在看起來1,500億……我覺得1,000億有可能啦！如果只剩下1,000億，那是不是整個電價調幅會很大，包括民生用電也會調很多嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們審議委員會這邊都會在工作當中，照顧民生這個一定提到的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我是給你機會，公開喊話跟主計長說。"],["王部長美花：是，我們當然……"],["張委員啓楷：1,500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要，對不對？"],["王部長美花：當然政府的撥補越多越好。"],["張委員啓楷：對民生也很重要，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：物價不要上漲，對民生很重要。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你儘快約他啦！"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你休息一下，我們請中油董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：李董，從105年開始，這8年你們到海外去探勘，海域的探勘已經花30億了，打水漂，是不是？都槓龜啊？已經損失了30億，是不是這樣？這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，如果從整體包括海內外探勘的部分，根據報告其實是有獲利的。"],["張委員啓楷：陸上有獲利，為什麼海域8年已經損失30億了，而且根據今年最新的預算書，你今年要再花6億下去，不要講說人民的納稅錢已經30億丟到海裡去了，你今年要再拿6億，你有把握嗎？這6億會不會又丟到水裡面，打水漂，又不見了？"],["李董事長順欽：我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利、高風險啦！我們其實在看的時候會整體包裹來看，不會只有針對某一個點來看它是虧還是還是盈利，所以也謝謝委員在立法院的預算給我們子彈，讓我們可以去尋求機會。我想本來我們會根據相關的資料……"],["張委員啓楷：你在陸上有賺到錢，那海域油氣的探勘為什麼損失這麼多，這要好好想啊！甚至今年這6億一定要投嗎？更重要的你自己想想看到底有多少把握。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你明年還要不要編？你在陸上如果有賺錢，你就都投資陸上的，是不是這樣？每個公司投資都是這樣，尤其你是用了人民納稅錢，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是，跟委員報告，事實上我們有一個評估有五大項在看整個成功率是多少，我們才會投進去。"],["張委員啓楷：現在很重要的是現在已經損失30億，丟到海裡了，這6億到底能不能回本？最少要回本吧？能不能賺的回來？"],["李董事長順欽：我請我們的部門再去做評估。"],["張委員啓楷：詳細的評估，不要再把人民納稅錢丟到海裡。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，看一下這個表，你去海外的探勘這麼多，有4個國家都掛零、都槓龜，印尼、巴拉圭、索馬利蘭、墨西哥，這4個國家到底出什麼事情，為什麼一直都槓龜？"],["李董事長順欽：現在還沒到生產階段，現在還在測勘，所以測勘之後才知道……"],["張委員啓楷：105年就去了，已經8年了還在測？這8年是怎樣，這8年為什麼都是零？"],["李董事長順欽：其實在美國Guardfish，據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來，因為Guardfish是CRC這邊，我們也去跟它談過；至於East Seram應該是印尼，是我們這幾年投入6個礦區……"],["張委員啓楷：你給我的預算書上面明明白白寫著就是掛零啊！"],["李董事長順欽：現在是在測勘階段。"],["張委員啓楷：所以什麼時候才會回收？"],["李董事長順欽：這個要看測勘之後，這一口井……"],["張委員啓楷：8年了，董事長，已經8年了。"],["李董事長順欽：印尼這個我們在查一下是不是105年開始投入，因為我記得是在我接總經理之後我們投入East Seram這個案子，我們提供詳細資料。"],["張委員啓楷：有兩件事要特別注意，在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大，這個要注意，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，有些國家一直都槓龜，也要注意，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來我問你一個也是很重要、國人很關心的，天然氣的安全存量，裴洛西那時候來臺灣以後，中國大陸軍演了7天，我們臺灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少，可以撐幾天？如果兩岸兵凶戰危，中國大陸現在又開始演習的話，我們天然氣可以撐幾天，什麼時候會斷氣？"],["李董事長順欽：依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天，安全存量8天，我們現在大概在11天左右，所以絕對超過安全存量。至於如果有一些狀況……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你現在寄望中國大陸的軍演都不要超過8天喔？上次裴洛西來台時，就是7天了，對不對？現在很多人都認為兩岸是緊繃的，惡意螺旋一直在向上旋轉，最危險的時候、最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會，11日已經開完大會了，對不對？所以最敏感的時間就是到520，520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天，你的安全存量只有8天，怎麼辦？到時候臺灣不就斷氣了嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上我們跟台電有一個機制，電跟氣有一個機制在協調，我們會把存量存到最高，所以我們希望除了儲槽容積天數之外，事業安全存量天數也能夠拉高，所以我們不斷在建儲槽。如果真的有一些狀況的時候，台電跟中油其實是國安問題，我們會展開雙方的機制，看是不是要調整天然氣的用量或是調整其他能源配比的用量。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，董事長，你們有在努力，我現在是說你跟全國的民眾講，如果出現中國大陸有軍演或是有比較兵凶戰危的事情，我們天然氣到底可以撐幾天不會斷氣？你對著全民講，你可以撐幾天不會斷氣？"],["李董事長順欽：我跟委員報告，事實上可以撐幾天，要depend一些case、你的假設前提……"],["張委員啓楷：你一定會盡最大努力嘛！盡最大努力可以撐幾天？如果我們看到新聞報導或是大陸開始有動作，我們可以知道幾天內我們是安全的，這是中油的重責大任，也是經濟部的重責大任，也是國安單位的重責大任。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["張委員啓楷：他們叫你要幾天？你目前是可以撐8天，對不對？最久可以撐幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題，我剛剛特別報告，我跟台電之間都在協調……"],["張委員啓楷：對，透過那個協調，8天可以再加幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：他調整一下氣的用量，甚至包括如果比較長期的……"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，你盡最大的努力跟台電再做一些結合，盡最大努力，可以從8加多少變成幾天？"],["李董事長順欽：我跟委員報告，不只跟台電，可能跟台電的IPP還有包括工業用氣，工業用氣大概也占我們的14%，工業用氣怎麼去調整？我們當然是以守住民生為主，民生大概占7%，我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力，讓它能夠撐得最久。"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，我知道你很努力，我是說你對全民、對全臺灣的民眾講清楚，如果發生兵凶戰危，在你非常努力的狀況之下，我們天然氣不會斷氣，然後我們是安全的，存量是安全的，用電是安全的，這樣是幾天？很明確一個答案就好了，有14天嗎？可以從8天撐到14天嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：不止，細節部分我們再跟委員做報告。"],["主席：張委員，本席尊重您的質詢，但是您的問題是兩岸兵凶戰危的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠，這個牽扯到幾個問題，你的前提是打仗的時候，然後你來問天然氣夠不夠，如果董事長在這裡回答你，是不是洩漏了臺灣所有能源儲存的機密問題？所以如果您可以的話，他是不是私底下再回答您這個問題，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：主席，抱歉！我非常尊重主席啦……"],["主席：因為我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全，所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title來質問中油董事長，天然氣的儲存量在兵凶戰危的時候夠不夠，假使他現在回答你10天，你現在是要告訴中國說，臺灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天，到時候你要打過來的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，你太輕忽董事長的智慧了……"],["主席：我覺得我們尊重您的質詢權，但是是不是讓……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，你輕忽了董事長的智慧……"],["主席：No、No、No，主席做裁示，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：他不會講到一個8天，他一定講到一個彈性，這是大家要重視的安全，不是洩漏國家機密，而且這是什麼？依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲槽容量的規定，這是一個公開的事情不是嗎？我只是說在你的努力之下，你能夠有多大的彈性？"],["主席：董事長，您再私下跟張委員做報告，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，主席，可是你剛剛講的那個很嚴重喔！不是洩漏國家機密……"],["主席：我講這樣很嚴重，所以您自己也知道這個很嚴重，你不應該在這裡問這樣的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你不要輕忽董事長的智慧，他講的當然是一個彈性，可是對臺灣民眾來講，你要讓全民可以安心吧！"],["主席：您問的這個問題跟那一天大鵬主委被記者問到他要去跟誰會談是一樣的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我講一個點，不是打仗，以前裴洛西來臺灣之後，不就有軍事演習嗎？"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我們要共同努力讓全民能夠安心。"],["主席：您的質詢時間已經到了，我們要共同維護國家的安全，好不好？好，謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們要共同維持國家安全，共同讓全民可以安心，好不好？謝謝主席、謝謝董事長。"],["李董事長順欽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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是。 是。 他說的意思就是沒看到案,所以沒辦法我一定要罵很多人。 而且他今天說的是說只剩下1500億啦。"},{"start":71.986,"end":94.337,"text":"所以說剩餘不是說已經大家在講會有三千五百億他說現在能用的只有一千五百億你不要拖一千五百億他就講了兩個點他說我落地就沒有錢了對不對全部給你我就沒有剩餘啦第二個他說他要編一百十四年明年的預算他就有困難了那現在怎麼辦他現在等一千五百億你全部拿走他又有困難"},{"start":95.387,"end":96.028,"text":" 那什麼?"},{"start":96.028,"end":97.189,"text":"電價會漲得很高嗎?"},{"start":97.189,"end":109.701,"text":"我們當然院裡面的怎麼樣撥補的部分由院裡面來做決策 那當然我們經濟部要提供詳細的資料給他對對 博士現在不用擔心啦 第一你稍微找他這是第一人 對不對?"},{"start":109.701,"end":118.549,"text":"是是是第一他快點說沒看到方案 你趕快把方案給他好不好 那現在給你一個時間點 你現在公開跟他喊話啊 你沒請我用你等一下會不會漲多少"},{"start":119.434,"end":141.736,"text":"不公開喊話,那你趕快做,剛剛講的兩件事情,趕快約他趕快碰面,第二,方案趕快給他好不好?那第二個也很重要,那現在看起來1500億,我覺得可能一千也有可能啦,如果只剩下1000億,那是不是調補,整個電價調補會很大,包括民生用電也會調很多嗎?"},{"start":143.743,"end":152.13,"text":"這個主計那個我們審議委員會這邊會都會在工作當中那這個一定會提到的照顧民生。 1500億對經濟部跟對台電非常重要對不對?"},{"start":162.119,"end":163.119,"text":"你從105年開始這百年啊你們到海外"},{"start":191.144,"end":218.212,"text":"去探勘海域的探勘已經落30億了打水漂是不是?都槓鼓了已經損失了30億是不是這樣?這是人民納稅錢30億丟到海裡去了嗎?跟委員報告齁如果整個從探勘我們整體包括海內外整個我們根據報告其實是有獲利的是有獲利的路上有獲利嘛那為什麼海域"},{"start":219.753,"end":220.515,"text":"已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、已經賠償、"},{"start":229.275,"end":254.942,"text":"不要講說人民納稅錢已經30億丟到海裡去了你今年要再拿下去你有把握嗎這6億會不會又丟到水裡去打水漂又不見了我想探勘本來就是存在高獲利高風險那這個我們其實在看就會整體包裹來看不會只有針對某一個點來看他是虧還是淫意所以這個也謝謝委員在"},{"start":256.022,"end":256.583,"text":"2月11日及14日三天一次會議"},{"start":279.253,"end":282.777,"text":"你路上如果有賺錢,你就多投資路上的啊,是不是這樣?"},{"start":282.777,"end":286.701,"text":"目前公司到處都是這樣,尤其你是用了人民納稅錢喔,好不好?"},{"start":286.701,"end":293.227,"text":"是,跟委員報告,事實上我們有一個評估,有五大項在看,它的整個成功率多少?"},{"start":293.227,"end":300.815,"text":"我現在問你就是,現在你們很重要的,就是說現在已經損失30億,丟到海裡了,這6億到底能不能回本?"},{"start":300.815,"end":301.455,"text":"最重要回本吧?"},{"start":302.301,"end":304.063,"text":"你去海外的這個探勘這麼多 有四個國家都掛鈴欸 都放骨欸"},{"start":319.312,"end":323.137,"text":"印尼、巴拉圭、索馬、利蘭、墨西哥。"},{"start":338.568,"end":366.497,"text":"像那個其實在美國KFISH其實據我知道我們是有一些油氣出來因為KFISH是CRC這邊我們也去跟他談過那至於ISLAND ISLAND應該是印尼嘛印尼ISLAND嘛是我們這幾年投入我們這幾年投入6個礦區你給我一個你就是預算書上面明明白白寫的就是領阿都掛領阿現在是在測看階段嘛現在在測看階段嘛所以什麼時候才會回收"},{"start":368.141,"end":371.627,"text":"這個可能要看側看之後這一口井到底"},{"start":374.002,"end":379.926,"text":"在海上跟海域的已經虧損很大 這個要注意 有些國家一直都鞏固了也要注意接下來問你一個是很重要的 國人很關心的天然氣的安全存量 培洛西那時候來台灣以後"},{"start":404.164,"end":423.941,"text":"中國大陸今年的7天對不對?我們台灣到底天然氣的安全存量有多少?動武規綱如果兩岸兵兇戰危中國大陸現在又開始有演習的話我們可以撐幾天?天然氣可以撐幾天?什麼時候斷氣?現在我們依據規定今年的安全存量是要8天"},{"start":424.682,"end":426.184,"text":"你現在計畫中國大陸的經驗都不要超過你的8天喔?"},{"start":438.49,"end":440.952,"text":"在附近培洛西他就是7天對不對?"},{"start":440.952,"end":453.92,"text":"這邊現在很多人都認為說現在兩岸是緊繃的 二一螺旋一直在向上旋轉的時候 最危險的時候最敏感的時候就是中國大陸開完兩會嘛 11號已經開完大會對不對?"},{"start":453.92,"end":455,"text":"最敏感的時間就是到520嘛"},{"start":456.522,"end":478.582,"text":"520之前可能就有演習會超過8天、9天你安全存量只有8天怎麼辦到時候台灣不就斷氣了嗎跟委員報告事實上我們跟台電有一個機制電跟氣有一個機制在協調我們會把存量存到最高所以我們希望除了除草容積天數之外事業安全存在天數也能夠拉高所以我們不斷在建除草那如果真的有一些狀況的時候"},{"start":479.343,"end":482.644,"text":"對啦當然你沒有在努力我先說你跟全國的民眾講如果出現中國大陸今年或者有比較兵兇戰威的事情我們到底可以撐幾天天然氣沒有斷氣你對著全民講"},{"start":502.421,"end":528.108,"text":"對著全民講你可以撐幾天不會斷氣我跟委員報告喔事實上可以撐幾天要depend一些case你再假設前提你一定會盡最大努力嘛對不對盡最大努力最大努力可以撐幾天所以如果我們看到新聞報導或者是大陸開始有動作我們知道幾天內我們是安全的啊我想這個齁這是中油的重責大任也是經濟部的重責大任對不對是也是國安單位的重責大任啊他們叫你要幾天你沒錢可以當八天對不對"},{"start":530.932,"end":537.616,"text":"最久可以動幾天?事實上這不能說撐幾天的問題我剛剛特別報告我跟台電之間"},{"start":539.161,"end":542.002,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":563.588,"end":588.961,"text":"我們當然是以守住民生為主民生大概佔7%我們就是確保民生這一塊去做最大的努力讓他能夠撐得最久董事長我知道你很努力我是說你對全民對全台灣的民眾講清楚如果發生兵凶戰危你非常努力的狀況之下我們天然氣不會斷氣然後我們是安全的存量是安全的用電是安全的規管明確一個答案就好了"},{"start":589.98,"end":592.403,"text":"張委員本席尊重您的質詢但是我想您的問題是兩岸冰凶站尾的時候天然氣的儲存量夠不夠"},{"start":606.258,"end":606.718,"text":"主席,不好意思"},{"start":628.549,"end":644.825,"text":"所以我覺得這個關乎到國家的安全所以不宜在這裡用這樣子的title然後來質問中油董事長天然氣的儲存量在兵兇戰委的時候夠不夠他現在回答你10天你現在是要告訴中國說台灣的天然氣儲存量只有10天"},{"start":645.586,"end":651.114,"text":"主席,主席,你太欺負董事長的智慧了,他不會講到一個八天,他一定講到一個彈性,這是大家要重視的安全,不是洩漏國家機密,而且這是什麼?"},{"start":661.508,"end":675.104,"text":"依據天然氣生產或進口事業自備儲存容量的規定。這是一個分開的事情不是嗎?我是說你的努力之下你能夠有一個多大的彈性。 您在私下跟張委員做報告好不好?"},{"start":675.104,"end":677.647,"text":"隨便喔,進一步啦。可是沒有主席,可是你剛剛講那個很嚴重喔。"},{"start":678.047,"end":680.51,"text":"對,我講這個很嚴重所以你自己也知道這個很嚴重你不應該在這裡問這樣的一個問題您問的這個問題跟那一天您問的這個問題跟那一天"},{"start":693.024,"end":693.884,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"}]}},{"id":"149843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135602d326c66a6792fd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a631d4186e9443af555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:42:35 - 09:51:23","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":528,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:51:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:42:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時43分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：委員好！學長好！"],["陳委員永康：最近提到很多有關武裝衝突法、有關接戰規定的規則，剛才在前面委員的質詢中間甚至把歷史人物、國外戰略家講的「軍事是政治的延伸」這些話都套進來了，我這邊做一個建言。","第一個、在國防外交的領域，就是國家安全事務裡面，沒有用光譜這個字，spectrum是工程、科技的名詞，也就是「國家安全的光譜」這個話有這樣用嗎？沒有，就是國家安全的範疇及領域，同樣在軍事用語上、軍事與政治上面應該用的是範疇及領域，而不是用光譜，只有科技、工程才用光譜（spectrum）這個字，但現在在政治學上很多人喜歡把工程的名詞導入變成「政治的光譜」，我建言第一個、不要使用這個。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：第二點就是有關前次提出的標準作業程序，因為它是針對各單位、各獨立個案的規定，並沒有橫向跨單位、跨部會協調的連動關係，所以建議以後國軍聯三、在其他的作戰計畫次長室就不要再使用SOP這個名詞。","至於已經導入的現在國內正在深入講到的所謂ROE，上面只是一個論述的方法，我們不做細述，本席在會後會提供部裡面同仁就是剛才前面委員所提的Mr. Cooper的這本有關北約參考的ROE，北約現在有32個國家，這本書是2019年的，有480頁，算是在人道法案裡面有關自衛防禦，甚至面對敵意的行動之前，你有什麼預應的作為，都有一些論述，會後我會把這本書提供部裡做參考。"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：那麼ROE連帶出來就產生了一個共同圖像，前次我們在大會也提到，部長也重視這個，有關的前提、目標、方法及手段我在這邊不做細述，我就用幾個圖像做舉例。第一個，各位看到這張圖已經是套疊了四層，顯示了朝鮮半島、東海、日本防空識別區、韓國防空識別區、中國大陸在2013年11月23日發布的東海防空識別區、臺灣的防空識別區以及菲律賓的防空識別區，所以這一張大範疇的圖可以作一個基礎圖，我們到時候也可以提供部裡參考。在這個上面，我們再看到有關南海的問題，也就是說原來我們是十一段線，那麼中國大陸當初跟北越因為建立關係，取消了，變九段線。"],["邱部長國正：九段，是。"],["陳委員永康：後來它又把臺灣東岸畫一條第十段線，但這個裡面的原圖，原本是美國國務院製造出來的，它裡面有各地的臨海基線，所以這個圖等於我們跟外交部、海巡跟執法單位，甚至是國安局，可以共同分享。這張圖原本是一個衛照圖，我們把它變成一個單色，套上臺灣跟南海，再把剛才這個圖套上去，特別把東沙跟南沙的衛照再點上去，我們建議將來可以用這種方式，對於在決策過程的長官能夠瞭悉相關的位置，然後再套上你的機敏資料，平常只是一個單純的底圖。這張圖就顯示了中國大陸的基地以及訓練空域，包括紅色虛線的東海防空識別區。剛才前面委員所說的灰色地帶，有些是屬於防空識別區的重疊區，那在這個裡面製造的困擾，對我方的反應是一種消耗，當然你除了監控、監偵以外，因為中國大陸可以對外講，我在國際民航組織的圖已經畫上這個，所以原本是區塊，原本是灰色地帶，可能在法律上會變成灰色區塊的論述，我想國防部在這個地方，除了我們的作戰計畫參謀次長室以外，未來我們的法制司在國際法上面的引述，可以利用ROE裡面的一些條例跟範例來充實。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：各位看到這個就是金廈水道的圖，因為是已經經過座標校正了，所以有方格、有經緯度，那我們再套疊、再套上衛星，再套上當時這是某年某月某天的海上活動船。現在因為很多的軟體程式都可以點了就進入，可以查核它是哪一艘，是商船或是不明目標，根據這個不同的圖套疊加上海底水深。可是現在產生了一個結果，就是包括海巡用的圖，跟我們海軍用的圖，甚至陸委會發布的圖，它有座標顯示，但是沒有統一調校，所以將來這個要請我們的製圖單位、校正單位，把發生事件以後每一個單位的圖做一個調整，最後用一份最終的校正圖。"],["邱部長國正：好，我瞭解。"],["陳委員永康：因為像這張圖例上面是陸委會的圖，雖然標了經緯度的數字，但是並沒有校正，所以以這個方式，最後來收斂這個結果，未來回溯過程中間，對於執法過程哪些是解釋的落差，哪些是圖像的落差，最後能夠做一個收斂，我認為國防部在整體的領海問題、禁限制水域方面，做一個橫向跨部會協調，來協調海委會、協調國安局，大家能夠得到一個共識，這樣子比較周延。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：請教部長對這個看法如何？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，真的很感激，而且委員提供這些資料，我馬上就有一個概念，就是現在任何工作的推動，絕對不是單方面單打獨鬥的，所以剛剛委員提了這個共同圖像運用，要召集哪些人，可能不是國防部一個單位可以完成的，所以我們一定會把這個問題跟國安會建議，因為裡面剛剛委員點到幾個，不管外交、國安、海巡、內政，還有陸委會，都是有必要加入的，因為這些都要產製、加入共同圖像，大家認知一樣了，有任何狀況，處理起來，就不會變成好像有點，不能講亂了套，起碼有點權責不分的樣子，所以這一點特別跟委員報告，我們這個後續絕對會接續做下去，讓各部會作一個統一的依據。"],["陳委員永康：我最後就提出剛才先前給您的一個建言，就是我們不要用國防外交跟國安的光譜，那是範疇跟領域。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解，好。"],["陳委員永康：好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：好，以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員，真的謝謝委員！"],["主席（黃委員仁代）：謝謝陳永康委員的發言。","接下來我們請馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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同圖像,大家認知一樣,但有任何狀況處理起來,就不會好像變成一個好像有點不能講爛的套,最起碼有點全者不分的樣。所以這一點特別跟委員報告,我們這個後續絕對會拔給接續做下去,讓各部會做一個統一的依據。"},{"start":512.64,"end":522.771,"text":"我最後就提出剛才先前跟您的一個建言就是我們不要用國防、外交跟國安的光譜那是範疇跟領域以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135c0bbca47ac03878b9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a6ff30f6c757e0e6d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:38:44 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09:51:50","影片長度":"00:13:06","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":786,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:51:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:38:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":184,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時38分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請楊金龍總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：楊總裁早。請問你，現在全球的金融市場都在漲，股市在漲，黃金在漲，虛擬貨幣在漲，銀也在漲，黃金、白銀都在漲，好像無所不漲。我能不能說現在全球都處於牛市？可以這樣講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：目前為止，暫時是牛市，沒有錯，我可以同意。"],["賴委員士葆：還可以維持多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我也跟委員報告，有關美國金融市場上漲的程度，事實上，市場也開始有一些聲音出來了，它有漲過頭……"],["賴委員士葆：你的意思是美國股市漲得不健康，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是有泡沫之虞。"],["賴委員士葆：我看到一則報導說現在的美國股市，講美國股市，不是講臺灣股市，這一篇是外國人寫的，我把它copy下來，他說現在美國股市的走勢很像2008年的網路泡沫化，那篇文章你看到沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：就dot-com、dot-com的那個情況。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，我有。他也認為可能跟那個dot-com bubble很相似，提醒要……"],["賴委員士葆：全球金融市場未來會bubble嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有些時候我就在想，理論上金融市場本身會自我調整，但是這一句話後來印證是不對的，理論上都說金融市場會自我調整，但是到最後，你看看2008年，它就整個crash下來，它沒有自我調整，dot-com也是一樣，它也沒有自我調整，所以Alan Greenspan有句名言，就是「非理性的榮景」，因為非理性榮景，所以市場不會自我調整，我們要說市場是理性的……"],["賴委員士葆：現在是不是非理性的榮景？"],["楊總裁金龍：呵！呵！呵！我們只能說用……"],["賴委員士葆：你不敢說？"],["楊總裁金龍：用以前的來稍微做……"],["賴委員士葆：換句話說，如果理性的自我調整，叫做軟著陸，非理性的就crash，就是硬著陸，是 hard landing，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們再看一個，specifically來講、具體來講，日本負利率要結束了，supposedly日幣要漲了，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上短期間可能會反映，就是可能結束負利率，但是負利率是短期的，長期它還是寬鬆，相較美國，它還是寬鬆，只是它把它的Yield Curve Control，就是10年期的0%……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，結束掉它的負利率，對日本的經濟復甦有沒有幫助？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這個就是它非常謹慎的地方……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有幫助你告訴我。"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是說，它認為它已經sustainable、很穩定的成長了以後，才會結束它的負利率。"],["賴委員士葆：按照這樣的邏輯，supposedly日本的經濟會好起來吧？比以前好吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，以目前來講的話是，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們來看喔，美國過去大力升息，請問美國現在基本利率多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本利率是5%到……"],["賴委員士葆：5%，那我們的基本利率多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們大概將近2%。"],["賴委員士葆：將近2%，他們是5點多，過去因為美國要打通膨，拚命升息，臺灣不太升，現在大家預估美國FED大概6月份會降息，可是相對的，臺灣因為電價要漲，在我們的CPI居高不下的情況下，臺灣可能會升息，你要不要跟我們講一下、開示一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也有稍微談到這一點，臺灣要謹慎，第一，雖然我們現在是2%，但是如果電價上漲的話，就中央銀行的觀點，我們上一次估測的通膨率是比主計總處還高，差不多是1.9%，如果電價一上漲，恐怕就會突破2%，喔！一定突破。除了這個2%，2%左右……"],["賴委員士葆：可是2月份的CPI已經到3%了，不是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是2%左右是沒有錯，但是我們要想喔！我們要想我們的通膨率，你看看前幾年是1.97%、2.95%、2.58%、2.49%，然後現在又超過2%，那明年呢？也就是說通膨如果超過2%太長的話，那麼通膨的預期心理就會很強烈，以後要把通膨再打下來就不大容易了。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在是講2%，我剛已經提醒你了，2月份已經3%了咧！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，但是2月份……"],["賴委員士葆：3%你緊不緊張？"],["楊總裁金龍：3%是因為節日的關係，因為春節的關係，所以1月跟2月兩個除起來，大概是2.43%。"],["賴委員士葆：2.43%是高的喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，2.43%還算高啦！"],["賴委員士葆：所以可以這麼講，楊金龍總裁心裡的 CPI防線大概就是2%到2.5%之間，是不是？你能夠忍受的大概是這樣子，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，我剛剛也有講……"],["賴委員士葆：穩定物價很重要，你的職責啊！穩定物價是央行的責任啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，這個沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：穩定物價是中央銀行的一個職責。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我可以這樣進一步推論，如果臺灣的 CPI長期到2.5%以上的話，我就講長期，也就是說拖個幾個月，差不多央行就要升息了，要不然控制不了，可以這樣講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會謹慎啦！"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以這樣講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們會謹慎討論這個問題，下個禮拜四我們會謹慎……"],["賴委員士葆：但是傾向於同意我的話，這句話可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：呃，應該是幾乎差不多啦！"],["賴委員士葆：差不多啦！差不多就是我講的這句話啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我的意思是說，臺灣的通膨率如果發生了結構性的改變，那麼中央銀行對於利率的……"],["賴委員士葆：電價上漲10%以上，會不會產生結構性改變？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果純粹只有電價……"],["賴委員士葆：電價漲10%？"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不一定啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不一定？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為剛剛已經……"],["賴委員士葆：電價帶動萬物齊漲，怎麼會不一定？奇怪！這個結構性已經改變了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛我講到兩個重點，第一個重點是通膨的預期心理；第二個，一個是螺旋式的，也就是說……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！我時間沒這麼多，請你簡單回答，電價上漲不會改變CPI結構，這是不是你的意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是不會，應該是不會。"],["賴委員士葆：不會喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：會啦！怎麼不會，看漲多少啦！如果漲20%，你看看！漲20%看看，怎麼不會！"],["楊總裁金龍：所謂的結構性改變，就誠如我剛剛說的，我們長期時間都差不多是平均1%，但是以後……"],["賴委員士葆：電價漲上去，長期就不會跌啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，那個結構……"],["賴委員士葆：來！來！我時間不多……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，那個是暫時性的結構改變，而不是長期性的結構，我所說的結構是長期性的……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！你私底下再給我一個什麼叫長期性結構的說明。來！我再問你一個，這個委員很關心，媒體也很關心，我們的eID、數位身分證，政府好高興喔，說東元要charge 10億賠償損失，結果我們討價還價變成2.8億，好高興！結果人家馬上抓出來，有另外的委員說不是啊！你買的設備是4.2億，你告訴我們是3.9億，到底設備是3.9億還是4.2億？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個詳細的情形，是不是……"],["賴委員士葆：來！印製廠有沒有？印製廠來講一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：是不是請印製廠回答這個問題？"],["賴委員士葆：那部機器多少錢？"],["喻總經理家聲：跟委員報告，印製廠的設備和……"],["賴委員士葆：不，不，你就講這件，因為我時間快到了！來，這個設備多少錢？3.9億還是4.2億？"],["喻總經理家聲：3.79億。"],["賴委員士葆：3.79億，已經折舊3年，對不對？"],["喻總經理家聲：3年我們折舊了1.34億。"],["賴委員士葆：還剩多少？"],["喻總經理家聲：還剩2.46億。"],["賴委員士葆：2.46億怎麼處理？帳上怎麼處理？"],["喻總經理家聲：目前我們跟內政部是暫緩執行當中，所以合約還是保持在那邊。"],["賴委員士葆：暫緩實施，那它就變成不是資產啦！以會計準則來看，它就不能當資產，等於是廢鐵一堆，就沒有要用了啊！"],["喻總經理家聲：我們的暫時……"],["賴委員士葆：這個案子沒有了，請問這部機器能不能用到其他地方？"],["喻總經理家聲：這部機器我們現在跟內政部考慮可以用在別的……"],["賴委員士葆：就你過去所知，能不能用在別的地方？"],["喻總經理家聲：因為我們的機器生產的方式……"],["賴委員士葆：這個機器是專門用在數位身分證，不能用在別的地方，所以基本上等於全部報廢掉，這個事情是這樣子啦！"],["喻總經理家聲：這個設備我們現在跟內政部建議可以用在有晶片的卡片，或者沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有結果？"],["喻總經理家聲：這個要等客戶、內政部那邊決定。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講啊！現在看起來這等於報廢掉，你們要想辦法讓它不是只有報廢。最後一題，好不好？你請回。來，總裁，這是不是你們央行的報告裡面破天荒、幾十年來第一次主動提到主權基金，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：代表楊總裁很注意主權基金這件事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：我們主席讓你這麼發揮，要給他肯定一下，主席的用意都是很好的，就是讓你講，結果你現在把主權基金放進來，我仔細讀了一下，然後摘要了幾個重點，因為我的時間基本上是到了，不要耽誤其他委員太多的時間，但是請讓我講完，這個很重要。央行的立場是你贊成，但是不贊成無償使用外匯存底，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：Yes就好了！第二個，如果是用政府的錢去成立什麼基金，你通通沒有意見，但是需要外匯就自己買，錢拿來、臺幣給我，我發美金給你，就是這個意思，講白話就是這樣，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯！沒有錯！"],["賴委員士葆：第三個，你反對修中央銀行法。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：如果要設就設一個專法，這個對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：以上都對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：他們最喜歡講淡馬錫，其他國家的這些基金，其實他們都是用政府的錢，就是我剛剛講的，就是你報告寫的，需要用到外匯就跟央行買，但是都是用它自己的錢。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一點，國外也是一樣，主權基金的操作績效不見得就是很好，賠錢的也很多，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：所以總而言之，第一個，你的重點是，要就立專法，不可以修改銀行法。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，你要用我的錢，不是無償的，要把錢拿來、臺幣給我，我給你美金，就這樣子，沒錯吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：以上所講的，我跟你有這個對話，我完全支持您的立場，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請郭國文委員、郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.00534375,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.654093750000001,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.438468750000002,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.340968750000002,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.00721875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.294093750000002,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.88409375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.242218750000003,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.360343750000002,"end":25.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.31784375,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.33034375,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.31659375,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.81846875,"end":41.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.21846875,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.17034375,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.92909375,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.99659375,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.84846875,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.603468750000005,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.89846875,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.64096875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.50159375,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.33659375,"end":69.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.65721875,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.05284375000001,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.38846875,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.86034375000001,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.74096875000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.31846875000001,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.43971875000001,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.72596875,"end":118.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.47221875000001,"end":123.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.74159375,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.08659375000002,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.50721875000002,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.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double是很相似的要提醒要大家全球金融市場未來會bubble嗎?這個就是說所以呢我就有些時候就在想就是說金融市場他有些時候他就是說在理論上都說金融市場他本身會自我調整"},{"start":119.511,"end":145.831,"text":"但是這一句話呢是後來印證是不對在理論上都說金融市場會自我調整但是到最後你看看2008年呢他就整個crush下來他沒有自我調整啊他也是一樣的啊他也沒有自我調整啊所以呢也就是說市場呢是有些時候所以那個什麼Alan Greenspan有一個名言就是說非理性的融資"},{"start":148.872,"end":155.048,"text":"所以市場呢他不會的我們要說市場是理性的現在是不是非理性的融進"},{"start":158.431,"end":182.803,"text":"我們只能就是說用以前的來稍微做議案。歡迎就是說如果理性的自我調整叫做軟著陸,非理性的crush叫做硬著陸。我們現在再看一個specifically來講的話,日本負利率要結束了。"},{"start":184.212,"end":205.751,"text":"那就supposedly日幣要漲了會不會基本上呢短期間他可能會反映就是說他如果說他結束他的負利率但是負利率呢他是短期啦但是長期呢長期他還是寬鬆啊"},{"start":206.732,"end":207.712,"text":"我問你他的互利率把他結束掉對於日本的經濟復甦有沒有幫助?"},{"start":223.62,"end":228.204,"text":"所以這個就是說他非常謹慎的地方應該就是說他認為他是已經sustainable他已經是很穩定的成長了以後呢他才會結束他的互利"},{"start":241.636,"end":266.433,"text":"是不是日本的經濟會好起來吧?比以前好吧?當然,現在以目前來講的話呢,是。所以呢,他是上海...好,我們來看喔美國過去大力升息啊請問美國現在基本利率多少?現在美國?基本利率是5%到5.5%我們自己基本利率多少?我們大概將近2%將近2%?他是5點多對"},{"start":268.715,"end":296.993,"text":"台灣過去因為他們美國要打打通膨平平升息台灣不太升現在呢大家預估說美國的FDFED他在6月份會降息可是相對的因為台灣有電價要漲啦我們現在CPI這個居高零下這個居高不下的情況之下所以台灣可能會升息"},{"start":301.397,"end":322.734,"text":"我剛剛也有稍微談到這一點台灣要謹慎第一個就是說雖然我們現在大概2%但是你看我們如果說電價上漲的話就中央銀行的一個觀點我們上一次是將近我們的通膨率是比主力總數還高我們是估測是差不多1.9"},{"start":324.255,"end":348.555,"text":"那如果說你的電價一上漲的話呢﹖恐怕就是說會突破2%那除了這個就2%可是8月份的CPA已經到3了欸對就是說2%是左右是沒有錯啦但是我們要想喔我們要想就是說我們的通膨率你看看在前幾年的1.972.952.58"},{"start":354.279,"end":375.836,"text":"二點四九啊然後呢現在又超過二那明年啊所以呢也就是說你的通膨如果說太長的話超過二太長的話呢那麼這個通膨的疫情的心理呢就會很強勒以後呢你要把通膨再打下來你現在一直講二齁我剛剛一直跟你提醒了二月份已經三了勒"},{"start":376.676,"end":393.508,"text":"但是2月份3 3是因為是因為是介入的關係這個是一個是春節的關係所以1月跟2月相處兩個除起來的時候呢大概是2.43啦2.43是高的喔照你來所以可以這麼講楊金龍總裁心理的CPI防線大概就是2到2.5之間是不是"},{"start":403.208,"end":410.632,"text":"我們當然就是說我剛剛也在講了就是說穩定物價很重要你的職責啊穩定物價央行的職責沒有錯穩定物價是中央銀行的一個職責所以我可以這樣進一步推論如果長期台灣的CPI到了2.5以上的話或者講長期也就是說拖個幾個月差不多央行就要升息了不然控制不了會這樣說嗎"},{"start":430.743,"end":431.825,"text":"我跟委員報告我們會謹慎的來討論這個問題"},{"start":436.604,"end":459.122,"text":"在下個禮拜四我們會但是請項羽同意我的話這句話可以嗎應該是幾乎差不多啦差不多啦差不多就是我講這句話我就說我的意思是說臺灣的一個通膨率如果說發生了結構性的一個改變的時候呢那麼中央銀行呢對於他的利率的電價上漲10%以上會不會產生結構性改變"},{"start":462.014,"end":489.545,"text":"喔如果說是純粹只有電價那也不一定啦那也不一定因為剛剛已經講了電價拜託讓我起床啊什麼不一定奇怪這結構現在改變了剛剛我有講到兩個重點第一個重點就是通膨的議期第二個呢也就是說一個是螺旋式的也就是說我時間沒這麼多話請你簡單回答就是電價上漲不會改變CPI的結構是不是你的意思應該是不會"},{"start":490.486,"end":491.488,"text":"應該是不會 不會喔 不會"},{"start":493.368,"end":493.948,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆賴士葆"},{"start":523.253,"end":546.118,"text":"這個委員很關心阿媒體也很關心阿我們那個EID阿數位身份證阿政府好高興喔說董委你要掐起10億賠損失結果我們討價人家2.8好高興結果人家馬上抓出來阿另外的委員說不是阿你買的設備是4.2億你告訴我是3.9億到底設備是3.9還是4.2"},{"start":548.058,"end":548.739,"text":"這個齁,詳細請請,因為齁,我委員我是不是硬製廠來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":573.271,"end":587.331,"text":"一點三四一一點還剩多少還剩二點四六一二點四六一怎麼處理二點四六一目前我們跟內政部是暫緩執行當中所以合約還是保持在那邊"},{"start":589.242,"end":606.477,"text":"暫緩實施他就不是資產啦他就根本以那個以那個這個會計準則他就不能當資產他等於是廢鐵一堆啦也不可以用啊這個案子沒有了請問這部機器能不能用到其他地方"},{"start":607.177,"end":607.677,"text":"什麼時候可以有結果?"},{"start":636.127,"end":659.435,"text":"那這個要等客戶內政部這邊決定我跟你講阿現在看起來這題有報廢掉你沒想到不是就有報廢最後一題好不好最後一題來來你們兩位請回來總裁這是不是你的央行報告裡面破天荒幾十年來第一次在報告裡面主動提主權基金是不是是沒有錯"},{"start":659.935,"end":686.382,"text":"代表楊總裁注意這個事主權基金沒有錯我們主席這個讓你這麼發揮主席要給他肯定一下主席的用意都是很好的就是讓你講結果你現在把主權基金放進來我仔細的讀了一下把你摘幾個重點因為我時間快基本上到了不要耽誤其他我用太多時間但是讓我講完這個很重要"},{"start":687.222,"end":687.462,"text":"第三個．"},{"start":713.755,"end":741.782,"text":"你反對修中央銀行法是沒有錯如果要設就設一個專法這個對吧對以上都對嗎沒有錯淡馬錫他們最喜歡講淡馬錫其他的國家的這些的其實他們都用政府的錢就是我剛剛所講的就是你報告寫的是需要買用到外匯跟央行買是沒有錯但是都是用他們自己的錢最後一點"},{"start":743.719,"end":760.822,"text":"國外一樣主權基金的操作績效不見得往後培訓的也很多啦所以總而言之就是第一個你的重點就是要就立專法不可以修改銀行法第二個"},{"start":762.339,"end":763.781,"text":"郭文貴委員 郭昭瑋"}]}},{"id":"149841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135708f5d059f87170308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6db83578cf04ae42b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:40:12 - 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趙主任好部長好部長我想針對我們的那個廢棄物的政策來跟這個部長這邊來討論看到前兩天部長有到那個外埔綠能生態園區去會館嗎是那你是去看黑水嗎還是"},{"start":21.429,"end":37.754,"text":"不是給黃文報告,事實上我去年11月17號因為我知道說外埔力能生技園區是國內第一個利用這個生廚宜去做早期花店,把它變成能源化"},{"start":38.154,"end":66.297,"text":"我覺得這個是一個非常好的案例結果我去了之後瞭解情況在早期發電方面的確已經開始在發電而且累計將近990萬瓦這個990萬度非常好可是他的問題是他產生的早雜早業都還要花很多錢硬到外面去處理那我個人覺得這個是不符合循環經濟的概念"},{"start":67.017,"end":67.037,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":86.188,"end":103.796,"text":"跟台中市政府環保局建議你們一定要這樣做你不能把這些早雜早月月送到外面去每年要花好幾百萬我個人覺得這個那部長我想問一下就是說我們之前的這個廚餘有的是用這個高速廚餘發酵廠"},{"start":105.657,"end":124.974,"text":"﹗"},{"start":125.294,"end":153.02,"text":"我不知道你的這個立場是怎樣你現在是希望就是說用養這個黑水芒來去化這個廚餘或者是用另外其他的方式事實上我的概念是希望能夠達到零廢棄事實上廚餘它是現在還蠻珍貴很多人都想要使用廚餘但是使用的方法我個人覺得有改善的空間我們朝兩個方向第一個是能源化"},{"start":154.668,"end":169.79,"text":"知言化知言化當然現在已經有在做譬如說農委會他們也很多包括把農業資材去做堆肥去做飼料那黑水盲他這些功能都可以他也可以能研化也可以知言化"},{"start":170.771,"end":200.258,"text":"他是一個非常好的方法那目前來講我們的廚藝的處理量能事實上不會有問題事實上是都夠只是很多單位他們所用的方法我個人覺得沒有全面去考量應該把循環經濟的概念所以你們現在要主推這個養黑水盲來區劃廚藝我們衡量了結果我覺得黑水盲真的是非常好的一個循環經濟的案例那我們也看到很多成功的例子"},{"start":202.34,"end":216.68,"text":"我想請問一下就是說目前養黑水芒其實還是少量就是說他養的那個還是少量那也是去不是全面性的啦那我想請教部長未來你們要怎麼去推動"},{"start":218.261,"end":246.016,"text":"基本上叫業界要馬上改變他以往的習慣事實上是有時候有一些挑戰所以我們現在是過度譬如說以剛剛黃委員講到外埔那個我們也是補助他們去做一個釋放的場域那希望這個可以成功他把他這個廚餘變成能源變成資源那將來國內的各縣市事實上可以以"},{"start":247.103,"end":269.277,"text":"台中外普的這個案例來推廣是那事實上現在包括新北包括像彰化彰化田中對也都有可是他們都是少量啦對但是量都很少是量都還是很少是所以這個當然要考量到從經濟的角度來看就是說你產生的這些這個不管是肥料"},{"start":270.157,"end":286.064,"text":"或者事料他的去化是不是能夠很順暢是這樣子才能夠解決這個問題所以像我們現在目前有的是直接丟到焚化爐那有的是剛剛講的這個發酵就是廚餘發酵廠去處理那我想問一下你們這個發酵就是說建置這種高速的發酵這個廚餘的發酵你們未來還會繼續推嗎還是就是朝著黑水嗎"},{"start":299.332,"end":299.892,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":329.612,"end":346.293,"text":"水的資源的利用當然就是我們在去年選舉的時候有候選人說如果說吃東西就是不留廚餘的話就不用去建這個廚餘廠那當然我覺得這不太可能所以我是想要知道就是說那未來像"},{"start":347.074,"end":358.349,"text":"像我們一些人口比較密集的地方如果要設這種黑水盲的這種比如說有的清潔隊各縣市的清潔隊如果說你們要去推的話是不是也要從清潔隊就是說地方環保局"},{"start":362.535,"end":363.135,"text":"我非常認同黃委員的建議"},{"start":383.007,"end":387.171,"text":"我講對清潔隊員來講或許未來也可以額外的一個啊這個功能可是如果說要養這個黑水嗎或者是需要什麼樣的譬如說他這個處理這個"},{"start":408.368,"end":409.248,"text":"實際上我們看過很多黑水盲的養殖場"},{"start":436.733,"end":459.471,"text":"大小規模都有甚至家戶也都可以我上一次到宜蘭去參觀一位臺大的石教授他退休他自己弄他事實上也有弄了一個家戶式的處理的方式也是養黑水馬對小跟大大概都可以處理所以這個彈性還蠻大的就是說未來我們會推廣希望說"},{"start":461.133,"end":484.871,"text":"這個清潔隊地方環保局共同來推動那希望把它除以把它能源化跟資源化是做最大的利用好因為我們看到目前還是小區域對就是小部分那小規模小部分小規模然後局部的區域在做而已那如果說部長你現在未來的這個方向是這樣的話"},{"start":485.692,"end":514.779,"text":"其實我覺得可能要從最基層的可能可以從各地區的這個清潔單位這個清潔隊或是環保局這邊來推動那我相信目前像彰化田中鎮這邊他們目前就是有養那聽說這些廚餘他們收的廚餘供這個黑水芒吃有時候都還不夠吃所以我才會說那個廚餘現在事實上反而是供不應求很多人都想要"},{"start":515.359,"end":529.83,"text":"好,那我們當然希望如果是這樣子的話我們也希望就未來這個廚餘真的是也是我們蠻頭痛的一個問題因為每天所產生的這個廚餘真的是非常的多"},{"start":530.45,"end":530.81,"text":"好謝謝黃委員的支持"},{"start":558.82,"end":562.18,"text":"那下一個我們有請那個圖圈及圖委員"}]}},{"id":"149840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135aae95c9e81b4df24836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6eb800868bb88a5545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:38:11 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09:49:04","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:49:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:38:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（9時38分）有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["郭委員昱晴：先講一下我人真好欸，我本來應該是排第7個，我已經是第二次跟羅廷瑋換順序了，因為他要去開記者會，可能是講一下執政黨BNT的事情，然後我跟他換順序。"],["吳主任委員政忠：郭委員早安。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早。我想問一下，剛剛在您的報告當中我們有看到，就是希望在我們科技人才的部分不要斷層，我們要向下紮根，不管是大學也好、高中也好、國中也好或者是小學也好。今年屏東有一所學校，算是第一所，即國立屏科實驗高級中等學校，在今年2月開始招生，8月可能就要開始正式教學了，但是因為我們知道它可能預計用國小部分的校舍還是用凌雲國小，凌雲國小也確定可能要停收，因為少子化的關係，這部分我不曉得主委您知道這件事嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：蘇局長有跟我報告，事實上它原來的學生應該是新的學校會把他納進來。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為之前他們有舉辦公聽會啦！等於他們的生源其實是很重疊的，地區也是很重疊的，有很多的家長也希望將來可能從2年級到6年級，因為學校停招的關係，所以也希望能夠直接納入，這個有特別專案處理，是不是？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個應該要無縫接軌啦，事實上一個措施下去要考慮到前後，這個我們有注意到，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我很高興有聽到這個聲音啦，因為目前是還沒有看到最新的一個狀況，如果主委這邊可以協同我們自己國科會跟屏東縣教育處來做一個銜接……"],["蘇局長振綱：是，沒問題，我們完全接收原來的學生。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，好，那先替這79個小孩說聲謝謝。","接下來我想要問的就是我們的TAIDE，剛剛也有特別提到其實這個非常不容易，應該這麼講，因為ChatGPT的關係，所以它有臺版ChatGPT之稱，其實我們大概知道它預計在2024年4月底會確定結案，對不對？應該是這麼說。"],["吳主任委員政忠：嗯。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外就是我們知道整個研發團隊在2023年（去年）6月已經有第一階段的成果展現了，接著下來在去年的9月跟10月也開放我們的中央跟地方政府來使用7B的功能，目前他們使用的狀況大概是如何？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個部分是這樣，我順便藉這個機會跟委員報告，事實上，去年年初全世界被ChatGPT嚇了一跳，我們在臺灣也是覺得如果沒有繁體中文版，這個以後會沒完沒了，所以我們去年3月就開始1年的計畫，很緊急地，也剛好臺灣有一些教授團隊跟他們的一些學生，我們組出來以後就用Meta的Llama 2來訓練。我藉這個機會跟大家講一下，它不是臺版的ChatGPT，我們是弄一個 basic的engine，然後各行各業，比如銀行業，whatever，他們拿去在上面餵他們的基本資料，各行各業的，所以一般來講不是像你去用美國那個 ChatGPT，因為它是一個私人公司。有這個以後，我們的各行各業，包括政府，要用的時候都可以拿去繼續訓練它的一些知識。目前我們這個TAIDE的7B，就是70億參數的，已經可以幫你翻譯，包括中翻英、英翻中，還可以把你的會議摘要弄出來，但是你要問它所有任何的問題，它的答案還不一定會那麼完整，因為它的資料，因為我們那個是一個比較小的engine，但是各行各業拿去用的時候，他們都滿高興的。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在不管是中央或者是地方，還包含企業，已經也都開始在做這方面的使用了嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是，如果是公司行號或者是法人，它跟我們這個計畫簽NDA或MOU，事實上就可以拿去繼續餵他們本行的資料，政府這邊也有。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個計畫會到今年的4月截止，4月之後會再繼續做這方面的一個延伸嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：會，因為全世界在生成式AI這邊真的是剛開始，去年我們緊急把它啟動以後，事實上我最近也決定再延1年，然後再接到114年的4年計畫。"],["郭委員昱晴：那有機會可以讓一般民眾或民間，甚至於是學校用嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：因為像美國的那個都是私人的，你要讓民間使用的話，背後必須要有一個很大的電腦在那邊，但是我們把它訓練完以後，我其實早上也有講，就是把它弄到一些資料，弄到我們以後PC可以用，那民間可以直接在 notebook裡面灌一個東西就可以用，事實上現在臺灣的PC業者已經有所謂的AI PC，有一點類似那個，未來會更精進。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以預期大概要多久之後才可以比較更普及？"],["吳主任委員政忠：其實我們目前有一個7B，也就是70億的參數，它所有的訓練資料都是有經過，比如說公家的資料，沒有智財權問題的；那13B的部分，就是130億參數的那個，有一些資料我們還在取得認證，13B那個就跟現在ChatGPT 3.5的回答能力接近，所以我們是希望也可以開放一小部分的人來測試，但當然是我們國網那邊的空間要持續夠，因為如果全部、1,000萬人上來弄的話，那個電腦的容量必須要非常非常大，我們會持續來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，我們也希望儘快能夠讓大家可以看到這方面的成果。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，最近大家都很關心臺海問題，在亞太地區，說真的，臺海的安全其實還是大家最關切的一個問題，我不曉得主委這邊知不知道，在俄烏戰爭的時候，為什麼他們在大量的、所有的設施或者建設被摧毀的時候，他們還能夠繼續保持跟外界的通訊跟聯絡，這個部分其實還滿重要的，就是所謂的低軌衛星，我們其實也在發展這個部分的科技，對不對？當然，是除了防災，緊急通訊的部分其實是占有非常重要的地位，一旦有任何的狀況或危險，我們也樂見我們自己本身有所謂的自製低軌衛星，但是這個低軌衛星要發射就需要有基地台，而我們大家也都知道，越靠近所謂的赤道，就越南，然後只能在東半部，這樣整個篩選下來就只剩下花東跟屏東這三個地區，但是這三個地區其實又跟當地的原住民有關，因為根據原住民族基本法，你要舉辦公聽會，要真的能夠在那個地方設置，其實會經過一段很長的時間，請問目前的進程大概是如何？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的提醒，的確，低軌通訊衛星或者是中軌、高軌都是對臺灣滿重要，因為臺灣是海島國家，那個我們有在布局，就是太空中心在通訊衛星這邊我們有自己投入。另外，那個也可以帶動臺灣的電子產業往太空的產業這邊來走。另外一個就是發射場地，的確委員說的沒錯，在東部、比較靠近赤道，射上去以後會比較省力，基本上又考慮到重疊海域的話，事實上真正可以有的就是屏東跟臺東。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們有看到一個時間表是2026，但是我剛剛有說，如果要舉辦公聽會或者是說我們真的要符合，因為這個需要一段很長的溝通時間，那2026真的來得及嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們儘量，但是前面的溝通還是要做啦，事實上我們的發射場地選址委員會應該在2月已經開過會，也就是說，相關的條件先確定以後再來對外公告，應該是在年底之前，我們希望可以把這個場址確定下來。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以目前也持續都在做這方面的溝通？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，依據原基法第二十一條跟當地的溝通都有在做，這個的確滿重要的。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這個對我們來講，其實不管是國防或者是在我們的科技產業部分，我們不希望再看到就是像去年我們臺馬電纜斷電的狀況，就感覺很像我們的離島變成一個孤島了，所以這個低軌衛星我想是事在必行，我們也樂見趕快……"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，我跟委員報告，那個衛星發射上去，剛開始可能會委託其他國家發射，因為我們那個基地，包括我們火箭自己做，目前的規劃是要2030可以自己做自己的火箭，然後在我們的場地發射。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：但是之前我們可以委託其他國家來幫忙。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那我們就持續努力，拭目以待。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。再來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.52846875,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.160343750000003,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.48409375,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.31471875,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.90846875,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.29221875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.12221875,"end":44.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.17159375,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.42846875,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.46409375,"end":72.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.81284375,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.71471875,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.92096875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.92034375,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.20659375000001,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.06221875,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.67721875000001,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.65909375000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.74346875,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.34659375000001,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.39284375000001,"end":128.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.33159375,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.22096875,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.23284375,"end":157.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.30034375,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.95284375,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.59284375000001,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.83659375000002,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.61971875,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.38659375,"end":210.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.47721875000002,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.77221875,"end":198.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.53971875000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.76159375,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.06846875000002,"end":219.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.53909375,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.65721875000003,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.70784375000002,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.87221875,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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GPT就是台版的CHAT GPT支撐所以其實我們大概知道他預計在2024年4月底會確定結案對不對應該是這麼說"},{"start":158.675,"end":181.088,"text":"另外我們知道整個研發團隊在2023年就是去年的6月其實已經有第一階段的一個成果的展現了那接著下來可能在去年的9月跟10月其實也開放所有的這個應該是說我們的中央跟這個地方政府來使用他們的這個7B的一個功能那目前他們使用的狀況大概是如何"},{"start":183.27,"end":210.672,"text":"我順便藉這個機會跟委員報告事實上去年年初大家全世界被那個checkGPD嚇了一跳那我們在台灣也是覺得說如果沒有繁體中文版這個以後會沒完沒了所以我們去年3月就開始一年的計畫很緊急的那也剛好就是台灣有一些教授團隊事實上跟他的一些學生我們組出來以後就用那個Meta的那個Lama"},{"start":211.843,"end":212.904,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":236.544,"end":236.764,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":253.993,"end":254.353,"text":"議員吳政忠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":269.485,"end":271.986,"text":"所以現在其實在就是不管是中央或者是地方還有我們包含企業"},{"start":286.534,"end":287.015,"text":"政府這邊也有"},{"start":306.587,"end":328.979,"text":"這個計劃會到今年的4月結束,那4月之後會再繼續再做這方面的一個延伸嗎?會,因為全世界在這個深層式AI這邊真的是剛開始那去年我們就緊急把它啟動以後那事實上我最近也在決定說再延一年然後再接到114年的計劃"},{"start":332.401,"end":358.199,"text":"那有機會可以讓一般的民眾或者是讓民間甚至於學校可以用得到嗎?那個就是說因為這個是像美國那個都是私人的那你要讓民間的時候你背後必須要有一個很大的電腦在那邊但是我們把訓練完以後我其實早上有講就把弄到一些資料弄到我們以後PC可以用"},{"start":359.019,"end":360.66,"text":"所以大概預期大概要多久之後其實可以比較更普及?"},{"start":378.272,"end":401.328,"text":"其實我們目前有一個7B就是70億的參數它所有的訓練資料都是有經過比如公家的資料沒有那個制裁權的問題的那13B有一些資料就是130億的參數那個有一些資料我們還在取得認證13B那個就跟現在CHAT GPT的3.5"},{"start":403.558,"end":403.578,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":430.864,"end":450.071,"text":"接下來因為其實最近其實大家都很關心因為我們台海的這個亞太的這個地區其實說真的台海的安全其實還是大家最關切的一個問題那我不曉得就是主委這邊知不知道其實在俄羅斯戰爭的時候其實為什麼他們在大量的所有的這個應該是說他們的設施"},{"start":452.312,"end":468.251,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":468.791,"end":486.22,"text":"當然其實他是除了防災緊急的一個通訊的部分其實是佔有非常重要的地位那一旦有任何的狀況或危險其實我們也樂見我們自己本身有所謂的自製的低軌的衛星但是其實這個低軌的衛星其實我們知道它其實要發射它需要有基地台"},{"start":488.541,"end":509.971,"text":"我們大家都知道是越靠所謂的赤道就越難然後只能在東半部其實整個篩選下來就只剩下花東跟屏東這三個地區然後但是這三個地區其實又跟我們的當地的可能跟原住民他們的一些應該是說他們的這個基本法其實是你要舉辦公聽會"},{"start":511.852,"end":515.774,"text":"議員提醒第一軌通訊衛星或者是中軌高軌都是對台灣蠻重要因為台灣是海島國家我們有在佈局就是太空中心"},{"start":534.023,"end":559.213,"text":"在這個通訊衛星這邊我沒有自己投入那另外那個也可以帶動台灣的電子產業往太空的產業這邊來走那另外一個就是發射場地的確委員說的沒錯在東部然後比較靠近赤道那個射上去以後會比較省力那基本上又考慮到這個重疊海域的話事實上真正可以有的就是屏東跟台東"},{"start":560.9,"end":580.065,"text":"我們有看到一個時間表是2026但是我剛剛有說如果要舉辦公聽會或者是說我們真的要符合因為這個需要一段很長的溝通的一個時間那2026真的來得及嗎我們儘量但是前面的溝通還是要做事實上我們那個"},{"start":581.625,"end":605.199,"text":"發射場地的選址的委員會我們剛好在應該2月已經開過也就是說相關的條件先確定以後再來對外公告那應該是在年底之前我們希望可以把這個場址確定下來所以目前也持續都在做這方面的一個溝通對那跟原基法的第21條跟當地溝通都有在做這個是的確蠻重要的"},{"start":605.499,"end":627.432,"text":"對,因為其實這個對我們來講其實不管是國防或者在我們的科技的一個產業的部分其實我們不希望看到就是像去年其實我們的這個台馬的電纜斷電的這樣子的一個狀況就感覺很像我們離島變成一個孤島了所以這個帝國會心我想這勢必勢在可行我們也樂見趕快我跟委員報告"},{"start":629.053,"end":629.393,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135b5438fccb1a291c351d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6c85d994a9850a63d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:36:33 - 09:45:27","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":534,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:45:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:36:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":165,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時36分）謝謝主席，我直接請中油董事長。"],["主席：請中油董事長。"],["邱委員議瑩：董事長，你好。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：董事長，我想請教一下，從您剛剛的報告我們知道中油去年累積虧損達到318億，今年到2月為止，你們的虧損大概是負的102億。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：董事長，請教您覺得今年整體的營利狀況或者是中油整體的營運狀況會是怎麼樣？有沒有可能今年會轉虧為盈？依照您剛剛說的一些國際因素等等，有沒有可能？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，我們內部根據國際大機構對油價跟氣價的預估，我們認為到年底大概打平的機會非常非常大。"],["邱委員議瑩：打平的機會很大，所以大概不會有盈餘，頂多只是打平而已，你們現在的估計是這樣。"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們目前的估計就是因為石化不好、石化會虧損，然後油品也不好，油品也會虧損，因為油品有亞鄰最低價跟國內的平穩機制，但是天然氣因為氣價走跌，我的供應成本減少……"],["邱委員議瑩：減少了。"],["李董事長順欽：對，我的成本減低，所以天然氣有可能會有一些些，然後大概就是整個……"],["邱委員議瑩：截長補短，你覺得你們有可能可以打平。"],["李董事長順欽：對，整個大概有機會打平，有機會。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，當然不能叫你們一定要立刻轉虧為盈，我覺得油價的漲幅其實還是考量到全體整個民生的需求跟臺灣整體的經濟發展，這個其實是非常重要。","接下來我要請教您第二個問題，我在去年也問過這個問題，部長昨天在進行經濟部業務報告的時候也表示，在能源政策的方面今年氫能跟地熱要列為優先的布局，對不對？董事長，我為什麼特別點名您上來？我去年也問過您，您說在去年（2023年）的年底要引進全臺首座移動式的加氫站，那現在已經2024年了，請問您的首座移動式加氫站在哪裡？我們到目前為止還看不到。既然經濟部認為氫能是優先的布局，就要有加氫站，我常常覺得中油在您的帶領之下沒有大錯，但是也沒有太大的進步，就是您可能個性比較保守，所以很多事情你不敢大步的往前走，比如說您去年答應的加氫站到底在哪裡？沒看到。來，我再給您看一下，我們要推動氫能，要推動氫能的加氫站，你必須要讓這個加氫站普及，我們才有可能去推動嘛！你看一下，這個是世界各國的情形，美國他們要投入70億美元去蓋7個氫能中心；歐洲要在2030年之前產生1,000萬噸的再生氫能源；包括日本、韓國，他們的氫能是蓬勃發展，可是到目前為止，我看不到到底臺灣氫能發展的策略在哪裡，我連一座移動式的加氫站都等不到啊！來，董事長，您要不要說明一下？"],["李董事長順欽：謝謝委員的指導，我想我們本來的目標確定是希望在去年年底能夠引進第一座可移動式的加氫站，得標廠商是德國的Linde，那在整個過程中大概有一些misunderstanding，本來預定在去年11月之前可以交貨，整個要延到今年，目前我們跟他談的最新進度是今年6月才能夠交貨。那我們在這個月3月11號也完成FAT，就是到factory去做一些廠的驗證，在去年11月能源署公布加氫站銷售氫燃料經營許可管理辦法以後，我們也跟高雄市政府遞件，因為我們的第一座加氫站準備設在高雄市，那也跟陳市長做過報告。目前這部分的規劃如果順利的話，或許應該是今年6月進來以後，我們在廠裡面還是要做SAT，就是site要再做一次驗證，然後我們正好已經在做丙類工作場所的審核，那我們已經完成QRA，就是風險評估，有機會在第三季。"],["邱委員議瑩：董事長，如果照您這樣講的時程規劃，今年也做不完啊！今年也設置不了啊！"],["李董事長順欽：可以，今年我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：你說有一些misunderstanding，可是在去年才問你，你很坦白、很直接的告訴我們，2023年年底就要引進第一座的移動式加氫站，我現在問你，你跟我說因為有誤解，所以要搞到今年6月，那我就不曉得您現在講的這些時程，我聽起來要在今年年底完成都還要很拚。"],["李董事長順欽：我們上個禮拜開過檢討會。"],["邱委員議瑩：我剛剛講到，美國要投入70億美元，我現在看到你們的氫能要做的事情，好像也沒有特別的經費在裡面，然後再生能源的部分，比如說中油很厲害的是探勘，對不對？這個是中油的強項嘛！在你們的報告書裡面也有講到你們的油氣探勘跟開發，剛剛我還特別聽到，包括您跟總經理也都特別談到你們要做所謂的碳捕捉、碳封存跟所有的這些研究，你的這一些研究費用編列了63.37億元，人家是編列70億美元，你是編列63.37億元，依照你們這樣保守的性格，你這個碳捕捉的研究、碳封存的研究，甚至你所有這一些包括地熱的建置、研究，我不知道要什麼時候才會完成。到底在政府再生能源推動政策上面的腳步，中油能不能跟得上？我這個PowerPoint寫說你能不能跟得上世界的腳步，我現在要問說，你能不能跟得上臺灣整體再生能源發展的腳步？我都已經不奢求你跟得上世界的腳步啦！就臺灣整體的能源政策來講，中油你能不能跟得上？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，因為政府其實賦予台灣中油公司要做氫能的供應者，甚至包括未來到2050年的量能，我們都依照這個政策在努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道你依照政策，但是你依照政策的速度、布局、腳步、時程都比大家預期的還要慢，所以這個是我一直說您比較保守的原因嘛！你沒有能力或者是說你不敢再更大步的往前走，或者是授權大家更大步、更快速的往前衝。你剛剛告訴我說你是依照政府的政策，沒有錯，依照政府的政策，但是你可以大步的往前走，你可以加緊速度嘛！世界已經往前走到這麼前面了，人家火車已經開到臺中了，你還在高雄準備要起步而已，我現在要跟您講的就是這個東西，所以你的布局、時程、速度能不能加快？"],["李董事長順欽：是，我們一直在加緊腳步，謝謝委員再給我們繼續監督，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝董事長，謝謝召委。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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董事長您要不要說明一下謝謝委員的指導我想我們本來目標確定是去年年底希望能夠引進第一座可移動式的嘉慶站那我們其實跟得票廠商是德國的令的"},{"start":269.004,"end":290.139,"text":"在整個過程中大概有一些misunderstanding所以他本來一定去年11月之前可以交貨的那整個要延到今年目前我們跟他談的最新進度是今年6月才能夠交貨那我們在這個月3月11日也完成了FAT就是到Factory去做一些廠的一個驗證"},{"start":291.96,"end":319.049,"text":"那這部分我們其實也在去年11月能源署公佈的嘉青站青藍料這樣子一個設置經營許可的管理辦法出來以後我們也跟高雄市政府來去遞件因為我們第一座嘉青站準備是在高雄市政府那也跟城市長做過報告那目前這部分的規劃如果順利的話"},{"start":319.969,"end":335.588,"text":"或許應該今年等於是6月進來以後我們在場裡面還是要做SAT就是Site要再做一次驗證然後我們正好已經在做品類工作場所的一個審核那我們已經完成QR的所以董事長如果狀況是這樣講"},{"start":337.59,"end":359.035,"text":"按照您這樣講的時程規劃今年也做不完啊 今年也設置不了啊你說有一些misunderstanding可是去年才問你的你跟我 你們就很坦白的很直接的告訴我們說2023年底就要引進第一座的移動式嘉青站現在問你 你跟我說因為有誤解所以要搞到今年6月那"},{"start":362.423,"end":388.345,"text":"我就不曉得您現在講的這些時程我聽起來今年年底要完成都拚架我們上個禮拜開過檢討會我剛講到就是說美國他要投入70億美元喔那我現在看到你們的這些你的氫能要做的事情好像也沒有特別的這個經費在裡面然後呢再生能源的部分比如說"},{"start":389.326,"end":413.56,"text":"中油很厲害的是探勘,對不對?這個是中油的強項嘛那在你們的報告書裡面也有講到你們的油氣探勘跟開發剛剛我還特別聽到了包括您跟總經理都也特別談到你們要做所謂的碳捕捉、碳封存跟所有的這一些研究那你的這一些研究的費用編列了63.37億元"},{"start":416.321,"end":431.249,"text":"人家是編列70億的美元你是編列63.37那依照你們這樣的保守的性格你的這個碳捕捉的研究、碳封存的研究甚至你所有的這一些包括地熱"},{"start":432.622,"end":454.712,"text":"的建制、研究我不知道要什麼時候才會完成。 就到底中油在政府的再生能源推動政策上面的腳步你能不能跟得上我這個pop point寫說你能不能跟得上世界的腳步我現在要問說你能不能跟得上台灣整體再生能源發展的腳步"},{"start":455.552,"end":464.485,"text":"我都已經不捨求你跟得上世界的腳步啦就台灣整體的能源政策來講中油你能不能跟得上啊"},{"start":468.378,"end":488.678,"text":"政府其實付給台灣中油公司要做清冷的供應車甚至包括未來到2050的量能我們其實都依照這個政策在努力我知道你依照政策嘛但是你依照政策的速度、布局、腳步、時程都比我們大家預期的還要慢嘛"},{"start":489.258,"end":512.41,"text":"所以這個是我一直說您比較保守的原因嘛你沒有能力或者是說你不敢再更大步的往前走或者是授權大家更大步更快速的往前衝嘛你告訴我說你是依照政府的政策沒有錯依照政府的政策但是你可以大步的往前走嘛你可以加緊速度嘛世界已經往前走到走到這麼前面了"},{"start":513.09,"end":526.321,"text":"人家火車已經開到台中了你還在高雄準備要起步而已我現在跟你講的就是這個東西嘛所以你的布局、時程、速度能不能加快是,我們一直在矯正腳步謝謝委員再給我們繼續監督謝謝謝謝,謝謝董事長,謝謝朝委"}]}},{"id":"149838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135e5f8a58ca2ad7a3bd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6bc170b242c5881665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:29:56 - 09:42:17","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":741,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:42:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:29:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時30分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：邱部長好。今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰，那也十分地尷尬，因為從上禮拜到現在一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容，沒有想到今天又再一次。不過我先從這張圖開始，這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰論文的圖形。","在這邊的有兩點，我覺得是值得重視的，第一個，在左邊認為比較典型的一些在政治上，或者在外交上等等的施壓、否定經濟，或者大家常講的認知作戰；真正已經到達比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊，所以這剛好也呼應了在總質詢那天，我們有提到其實很多事情都是一個層次的問題，它在一個光譜上面。所以我們在那天有討論到所謂輿論戰，也就是認知作戰的定義，部長那天也有提到其中的一個標準。當然，在此也要呼籲，很多媒體聽完部長的回答之後，都講到也都認為輿論戰這個認定，尤其是在地協力者的部分，是一件非常困難的事情，只有特定的幾家媒體，故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準，就是只要是對我方不利、對敵軍有利的，那就可以落入到這一個範疇，所以有些報紙更是坐實了自己更像在地協力者，在這邊還是要再度聲明。","第二個，我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區，所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡，我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突，它是一些比較低度的，一些經濟的衝突是比較低度的，但是如果到軍事的是比較高度的，所以以往我們會有一個想法，如果能夠在政治這邊、在外交上面能夠解決的話，軍事上面應該就比較不會是一個很大的問題。但是我們看到這個比較新的，譬如說在2022蘭德的一個報告，他們在講所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候，把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的、還有cyber的（網路的）、還有經濟的，然後還有所謂政治的，它並不是一個層升的圖形。它在做這些數量上的比較的時候說，臺灣目前是對中國灰色侵擾看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家。","我們舉簡單的一個例子，譬如說今天不管是軍事還是網路，不太會因為今天網路比較多，軍事變得比較少，或者軍事比較多，網路比較少，所以在政治上也有可能變成政治跟軍事是平行的兩條線。因為過往部長在針對這一個題目有一些發言的時候說，「軍事是政治的延伸」這個非常有名的句子，說政治上有一個共識，就比較不會有軍事逾越的行為發生。","但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講，它反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話，軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭，所以在灰色地帶作戰的時候，它反而已經不是一個兩極化光譜的一個圖形，而是一個像是圓圈一樣。它會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個兩邊的事情，但那其實是同一件事情。所以不知道部長對於現在這一個政治跟軍事之間的關係，有沒有一些比較新的想法？"],["邱部長國正：委員講得很好，這些話我曾經真的講過「軍事是政治的延長」，這不容否認；另外我們也講，用兵之法上兵伐謀，然後伐交，然後伐兵，這也是一個名言、也是一個定理。","現在就是因為環境的變遷，有很多東西混在一道，所以我覺得委員那天有關第一個就認知作戰的問題，認知作戰就已經利用有、沒有或者模模糊糊的，它把它加進去，人在不知不覺當中，變成被它引導了，這是很可怕的。現在講，它認為政治跟軍事要把它接近，把它拉在一道，讓你更加模糊，但這就看我們了。我們在認知方面，我們要怎麼很明確地把它給分辨出來，而且我一再強調「慎戰」，我想不管是領導者，或是各方的領導人，他都應該要有這種智慧去考量要不要發起這個，怎麼做方法很多，他的做法很多也可以引導我們，應對的方法也會變多，但最後的終結就看兩邊的領導人員、或上層的、或有政治考量的人物，能不能分辨這一段跟那一段、這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的，不能把它攪在一道。它要攪在一道，我們要把它分開，這就是我們的能耐。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，部長提到了一個非常重要的關鍵，就是它的方法真的非常的多元，不管今天是政治的還是經濟的，其實都包含在這一個灰色衝突裡面，所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到，就是說其實需要更多、各部會的大家一起來觀察，就是它灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾。","以往我們很容易就覺得政治一旦穩定之後，軍事就比較不容易發生，這個烏克蘭的議員……因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員，他有來臺灣，他有提到引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺，那話是講得比較重，因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的國家。簡單來講，他是認為，如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議，那這個時候就會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮，在我們退縮的同時，按照毛澤東的講法，反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候。如果在我們島內更多人想要投降的時候，反而是它進攻的最佳時機。這個就讓我想到，昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會，就有一個官方的記者問了這句話，說我們的部長提到我們現在為敵情強化訓練，就說您是在以武謀獨，但我相信部長應該不同意這句話吧？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道他怎麼講的，現在這個也是認知作戰的一環，它藉由這個題目出來儘量發揮，我坦白講，大家在做什麼？各自行他的本務工作，什麼以武謀獨，我們都沒有參與討論，我只知道國軍建軍備戰、保衛國家安全是我們主要的任務，所以我們為了要完成這個任務，平常要強化我們的建軍備戰，這就是我的觀念，我對它的講法沒有任何評論，我不予置喙，好不好？這個就要把它給明確，一碼歸一碼，我不能它一脫了以後，我就要去反駁，那我整個主要的方向就被偏移了，這種事情我不會做的。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，感謝部長遵守言論紀律，其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中，很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱……"],["邱部長國正：不會。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是這個例子讓我們知道了一件事情，就是不管我們做什麼事情，到底我們的定調是什麼以及我們自己怎麼想，其實中國完全沒有在理會我們，它會自己去定調我們的行為，然後再去說根據我們的行為它要做出什麼樣的反制，這也會導致像在這次海巡事件裡面，即使我們遵守了這些規章、我們也遵守了國際法，但它只要一句話說我們不遵守，它就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元，我記得在上個禮拜的時候也有跟部長提到，還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義與機制能夠快一點出來，就是我們能夠快速地讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做灰色地帶。","另外，我們的陳永康上將一直有提到ROE，ROE因為也是他的專長，所以這邊我就不置喙了。一直以來ROE的一些規則裡面，譬如這邊有美國的Standing ROE或者北約的ROE，還有Sanremo Handbook的ROE，我自己有稍微翻閱了一下，我個人是認為紅色這一個是一個蠻不錯可以參照的準則，但是我今天看到陳上將有帶Cooper的那一個，可能是北約的，我覺得那一本也不錯。但在這個框架之下，我想給部長看的就是我們在所謂的交戰規則裡面，按照部長上次的講法，我們有突發狀況的應變準則……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個是ROE的細緻化，就是如果對方做了什麼，我們應該相對應要做什麼。我這邊就擷取了其中一頁，這是國外的，譬如在心戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分，它裡面的確有提到什麼時候我們可以發動心戰、我們什麼時候心戰的哪一些手段可以做，它有很清楚的等於是範本讓我們去填補，但是在這個上面卻沒有提到到底它對於心戰的定義是什麼，就像我們在禮拜二討論的，到底輿論戰的定義是什麼，在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者、提到側翼組織、官方媒體，我們到底要怎麼去定性它，然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰，這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早是在國防白皮書比較常看到……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個doctrine……"],["邱部長國正：不行。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個doctrine可以比較清楚地讓國人知道，不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，所謂灰色地帶這個問題，除了在地帶以外，它連同世界有很多灰色的，但是誠如剛剛委員講的，中共認為它說了算，它說了算的事情很多，但它做了我們有沒有認同，它說了算它要做，但不可能的，因為我們有我們的想法，我只是平常沒有跟你去做口語方面的辯論，但事實上我們在準備，就是你說了算，但我要讓你知道，你說了以後不見得算，而且不能算，我們要做的就這個，所以在這一方面要持續努力。","現在環境變化很大，再加上每一個人有每一個人的想法、表達、各方面，一冠上民主自由的話，很多地方我們就受到限制，但國軍在這一方面釐得很清楚，不做討論，但一直很認清自己的本務，而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚，平常在這個界限以內、範圍以內一有狀況來，把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario，就像想定一樣，強化演練是我們唯一能做的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為時間有限，我快速地再往後追加一個小問題就可以了。就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概也已經討論了兩個禮拜，我這邊就不再多說。我想要去問一下，在美國的NDAA，就是國防授權法案，裡面目前來講除了魚叉反艦飛彈等等之類的，還有蠻重要的就是它對於臺灣有點像是全面性國防韌性的加強，其實美國現在有越來越多的方案，在這一些方案的擬定當中，目前國軍應對與承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，首先我們要表達感激、謝謝，因為有任何一個不管團體或國家願意幫我們，都是一個正面的看法，我們樂見，但這個授權法案也好或者強化臺灣的韌性，這個法案是一個法案，要怎麼樣來強化、怎麼樣來授權、要給我們什麼，是經過討論的，不光是我們國防部跟它要討論，而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論，因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的，這一點我特別跟委員報告，絕對不會面對一個國家我們就決定了，一定經過大家的協調，大家又資源共用，而且能夠獲得共同利益，共同防衛我們國家的安全，從這個著眼。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，感謝！我之後可能就會針對國防授權法案的一些細節再就教部長……"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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那有請邱部長 謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好"},{"start":19.906,"end":36.215,"text":"因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形"},{"start":38.496,"end":55.394,"text":"那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊"},{"start":56.355,"end":84.97,"text":"所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情"},{"start":85.69,"end":110.359,"text":"這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的"},{"start":110.879,"end":110.999,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":132.59,"end":156.665,"text":"在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家"},{"start":157.544,"end":180.448,"text":"因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子"},{"start":181.388,"end":206.307,"text":"說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個"},{"start":207.048,"end":207.469,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":216.345,"end":236.041,"text":"委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。"},{"start":237.142,"end":238.063,"text":"沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長："},{"start":262.464,"end":275.8,"text":"謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。"},{"start":277.202,"end":299.678,"text":"他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。"},{"start":301.459,"end":326.335,"text":"謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的"},{"start":326.877,"end":346.775,"text":"那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮"},{"start":349.858,"end":375.462,"text":"那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧"},{"start":377.04,"end":377.4,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":407,"end":407.901,"text":"感謝部長遵守言論紀律"},{"start":422.97,"end":438.588,"text":"其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想"},{"start":439.028,"end":457.725,"text":"其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態"},{"start":459.426,"end":474.975,"text":"這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶"},{"start":475.715,"end":503.599,"text":"那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到"},{"start":504.299,"end":518.95,"text":"沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則"},{"start":521.592,"end":540.842,"text":"這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補"},{"start":542.903,"end":561.249,"text":"但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":561.889,"end":591.036,"text":"那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了"},{"start":591.696,"end":609.07,"text":"我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且"},{"start":610.165,"end":627.734,"text":"不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚"},{"start":628.334,"end":649.292,"text":"不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。"},{"start":650.693,"end":665.985,"text":"謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案"},{"start":667.506,"end":688.207,"text":"就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼"},{"start":688.837,"end":705.346,"text":"我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。"},{"start":710.188,"end":737.882,"text":"不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135e95281f58a247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C的個人賣家很多很多因為現在青年創業"},{"start":374.97,"end":388.866,"text":"等門檻降低了所以大家在家裡直播就可以賣東西了然後就會造成大量的汙染再來部長你自己有使用過這個循環杯嗎因為你今天的書面這個報告也有提到循環杯"},{"start":391.3,"end":414.688,"text":"是我其實都是帶著自己的杯子是所以你去買飲料像我就大量外食嗎所以你去買飲料你去問你去問店員真的你實地考察每一個店員都跟我說沒有用沒有人用循環杯你自己的報告也講不出循環杯推出以後到底的用量是幾次但是你有講到"},{"start":415.168,"end":433.77,"text":"大家自己帶杯子提高到16%這個非常好可是你循環杯製造了很多垃圾我詢問每一個店員店員都說因為顧客覺得很髒每個人都不知道這個循環杯幾個人喝過所以你的利益很良好但他現在使用率極低"},{"start":436.041,"end":450.842,"text":"委員報告的確這個民眾他是對這個衛生考量所以他會比較有一點排斥不過假如從這個我們這個一次性的這些"},{"start":451.703,"end":479.217,"text":"啊這個飲料杯的減少的量來看事實上過去這幾年大概從15%是我給你一個具體的建議循環杯什麼狀況最適合比如說大的商辦他下面有咖啡店上面有幾十家公司他每天上班的時候買循環杯上去下班丟而不是我們現在路邊隨便的零售飲料店都在弄循環杯你這樣是不切實際的"},{"start":480.518,"end":503.249,"text":"所以你應該要把它分類到底誰才會真的用到所以下一個剛剛講到說的確你一定要提供誘因嘛所以你一定要實質的去補助獎勵這些有用分解材質或者是有再生材質這些技術的國內的廠家再來你應該要要求他提高這些再生材質的比率到多少啊"},{"start":503.869,"end":530.556,"text":"然後最後我看到你們有超多種的標章有衣服的有飲料的有這個包裝的你應該要把它統一啊你應該要做一個有公信力的永續標章然後不要讓我們喝喝個東西要找這個標章穿衣服要找那個標章對其實它就是一樣的概念啊是吧謝謝陳文的建議事實上這一點我們正有在進行當中"},{"start":532.117,"end":549.46,"text":"對永熙就是說把不同的標章看因為現在從新聞裡面都還看到說你們每一個細項都還是分不同的標章其實大家會一片混亂好對這個我們來說最後我想要呼應剛剛林月琴委員質詢的題目好我們看一下你明天就要開這個審議會了嗎是對這是去年的新聞喔"},{"start":562.782,"end":572.174,"text":"去年1月修正三讀氣候法說半年內會提出所有碳費的執法"},{"start":573.752,"end":592.817,"text":"阿這是今天你提出來的簡報今天我們重要執法的修訂進度有三項全民最關心的一個是碳費收費辦法含收費對象第二個收費對象指定減量目標第三個自主減量計劃審核辦法"},{"start":594.657,"end":605.992,"text":"這三個你上面寫社會溝通中去年1月你說半年內要全部提出來現在我們已經過了兩個半年又過了三個月了但是還在社會溝通中"},{"start":607.818,"end":623.208,"text":"給委員報告因為環境部也是去年8月22才成立的所以這期間事實上有一段是主改的過程對整個這個環境部的業務推動事實上是有一點點的確遲緩因為剛剛講嘛去年的2月15號總統公佈去年變遷因應法"},{"start":629.392,"end":651.77,"text":"那8月22號環境部成立那我也想問因為您剛回答林委員說你不知道合理的收費多少後來又跟蘇委員說300塊所以你們明天我是舉個例子舉個例子舉個例子說假如因為蘇委員說四五千億一年可以收四五千億所以你們明天會不會給我們一個具體的收費辦法會不會"},{"start":654.114,"end":678.51,"text":"因為所有人都很關心他影響我們物價指數 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2%，他們認為2%是比較OK的狀況，低於1%就很不妙，高於3%也很不妙，不知道這個講法你贊不贊成？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講得沒有錯，不過我稍微再補充一下，就先進國家來講，它是這樣子沒有錯！但是對開發中國家來講的話，開發中國家因為它的經濟成長都一直在往前，所以它的通膨率基本上都會比較高，所以很多開發中國家的通膨率，有的3%到6%、3%到7%，這個就是它的range，也就是說各個國家的發展程度不一樣，所以它的range就會不一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你認為臺灣應該在哪個range是比較合理？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員剛剛所講的就沒有錯啦！就是說……"],["吳委員秉叡：1%到3%之間是比較合理。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們臺灣還是以2%做為目標。"],["吳委員秉叡：2%做為基準，最好不要距離2%太遠。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不應該把2%叫做通膨警戒線。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。只是說我們要注意它……"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要叫警戒線，那應該是3%，是不是？如果依照剛剛這個討論的話。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。委員，我再補充一下，通膨也不是說碰到2%就不行，不是！而是就像委員說的，碰到3%沒關係，但是中長期的目標都一定要讓它回復到2%左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，其實我們的鄰國──日本就是很好的例子，長期的CPI都低，但是他們失落了30年。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：到了後面這幾年，反而是日本政府想辦法要讓CPI能夠接近2%，所以日本政府為了這個也付出相當的代價。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在什麼時空、談論什麼議題，有時候也還是要有比較長遠的眼光。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：最近有一個議題很夯，我想要請教你。去年第10屆本委員會有委員要提財富主權基金，現在聽說他們同黨的在這個會期又要再捲土重來，剛剛你的報告裡面有講，你覺得有三個東西，我有看了。我想跟你補充一下，別的國家對於主權基金的設置主要不是退休金，不然就是他們國家的天然資源，比方有挖到天然氣、石油……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：由國家在掌控這些財富，所以去弄主權基金。不過我要跟你說一點點我的看法，如果臺灣設主權基金，現在行政院有請國發會在研究，賺錢大家都會很高興，賺的不夠還會罵你，因為臺灣人沒有辦法接受賠錢。如果賠錢他就可以跟你扣帽子說，又在貪贓枉法了、又怎麼樣的。我要問你，就以新加坡的淡馬錫來講，每一年都大賺錢嗎？還是也有虧錢的時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：它也會虧錢。"],["吳委員秉叡：虧錢的時候新加坡政府怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為新加坡整個政治結構跟臺灣不大一樣，所以基本上這個問題就比較容易淡化。因為它的政治結構跟我們不大一樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，我來請教你一個問題，假設立法院硬塞了一個主權基金的法律，而行政院9月研擬的結果是不想設，結果立法院多數黨硬塞一個法令，這樣在政治上適合嗎？因為將來這個主權基金還是要行政機關來管理，總不可能立法委員訂了這個法，就由立法委員自己遴選人來管理，所以這就是憲法裡面為什麼會規定立法委員不得為增加預算支出的原因。同樣的概念，行政機關沒有要花這筆錢，立法機關不能硬塞錢給他花，那人家要如何執行？事實上，在落實執行的是行政機關。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我就是要請教你這個問題，如果在野的多數黨硬塞這樣的法令給你，你一再說不要設在央行，這個跟你們的基金都不合。他也不管就是硬塞給你，利用他是多數黨就硬塞給你，你要如何處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也沒辦法回答這個問題。但我還是再強調，全球主權基金的「主權」指的就是政府的錢，如果塞給中央銀行，而根據資產負債表，中央銀行資產的背後就是負債，那是負債，所以資產跟負債是平衡的，不是說這個資產……不像政府的錢。主權財富基金是政府的錢，硬塞在中央銀行法裡面是完全說不過去的。這個也就是為什麼全世界的中央銀行法裡面都沒有說來設主權基金的，沒有！"],["吳委員秉叡：這也是為什麼第10屆立委、也是在英明的主席主持開會的過程中，最後決定沒有去處理這個事情，就代表我們基本上有這樣的共識。行政機關不願意的東西，立法機關硬塞給他，基本上是違反剛剛講的憲法精神。當然這是類比，因為憲法條文沒有明白說不可以立法這樣做，它只說立法委員不可以為增加預算的提案，意思是行政機關沒有這個施政計畫、沒有要用這條錢、沒有由立法委員來發動硬要塞給行政機關，叫他非花這條錢不可的，不可以有這樣的概念。我是舉出一個是錢的、另一個是制度的。行政機關現在沒有要這個制度，你硬塞給他，他如何執行？他不甘不願也不可能好好執行，跟自己的制度扞格，他也不知道如何處理。我覺得這方面的聲音也要表達出來，讓社會大眾多一些考慮跟思考的空間。","再來就是你們現在也開始在研究數位貨幣政策，我個人對這個東西瞭解不是非常深，但是我有幾個概念要跟你討論。最早中國為什麼會趕快發行電子支付？大家都說什麼彎道超車、他很先進，其實不是，一開始原因是因為中國的假鈔太多，處理都處理不完。第二個就是中國共產黨要嚴格的控制錢可以在哪裡花，經過電子支付所有的交易軌跡，包括跟誰交易、在哪裡、做什麼，他全部都清清楚楚，毫無隱私可言。現在中國進一步要推數字人民幣，如果你反政府，你連一頓飯都沒得吃了，因為他從帳面把你的數字控制住，你的銀行帳戶就馬上被他鎖住了，你能花的錢就變零了。事實上，當他推到極致的時候，已經沒有貨幣了，只有數字。當你被他鎖住的時候，連一頓飯都吃不起。我認為這是共產主義一定要趕快推這個東西的最主要原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我也來稍微補充一下。事實上，最近我聽美國聯準會（Fed）主席鮑爾也在說，他們要推動CBDC要非常的小心，特別是對於隱私權的部分，必須要非常、非常的小心。這個就會涉及剛剛委員所講到的，現在中國大陸在推行，他就比較不care隱私權，跟民主國家對隱私權的重視是迥然不一樣的。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，我再跟你補充，其實中國現在也開始有反思的聲音出來了。當然中國集權立了一個什麼國安法，使得大家都不想去，可是其中一個是因為它都用數字支付，讓外國的旅客在中國使用非常不方便，進到中國如果沒有那個系統，如何把錢花出去都有困難，連中國的觀光旅遊業現在都吃到這個苦果。我的意思是你要推動這個東西、在研究，我不反對，但是要研究清楚，利弊得失都要考慮清楚。這個還有很長的一條路走，不要急。因為日本這麼多年來，現金還是他們國人最喜歡用的東西，好不好？以上建議，請你參考，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.40596875,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.41721875,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.22534375,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.32096875,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.80096875,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.31971875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.517843750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.838468750000004,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":47.719718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.534093750000004,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.15409375,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.51159375,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.76721875000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.70784375000001,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.268468750000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不是一開始原因是因為中國的假超太多處理都處理不完"},{"start":486.078,"end":504.935,"text":"第2個就是中國共產黨要嚴格的控制你錢可以在哪裡花所以你經過這個數字這個電子的支付你所有的交易軌跡跟誰交易在哪裡做什麼他全部都清清楚楚這個毫無這個毫無這個隱私可言"},{"start":506.525,"end":533.385,"text":"現在中國進一步要推他的數字人民幣我跟你說如果你違反政府你連一頓飯都沒得吃了因為我從頭上面把你的數字控制住你的銀行就馬上被他鎖住了你能花的錢就變零啊那你事實上已經沒有貨幣了他推到極致的時候是沒有貨幣的只有數字啊當他被你鎖住的時候當你把他鎖住的時候連一頓飯都吃不起"},{"start":534.697,"end":560.682,"text":"這是共產主義要的最重要一定要趕快推這個東西的我認為最主要的原因委員我也來稍微補充一下事實上最近我聽那個FED就是美國的那個聯準會的主席Power他也在講他說他們要推動這個CBDC他們要非常的小心特別是特別是"},{"start":561.522,"end":584.624,"text":"對於隱私權的這個部分他必須要非常非常小心那這個就會談到就是說剛剛委員所講到就是說現在中國中國大陸呢他現在在推行這個呢這個隱私權的這個呢他就比較不care那這個就跟民主國家的一個隱私權的著重的重視呢是迥然不一樣的"},{"start":586.469,"end":611.849,"text":"總裁我再跟你補充喔其實中國現在也有開始反思的聲音出來了因為中國現在去中國的人當然因為他集權他立了一個什麼國安法使得大家都不想去可是其中一個因為他都用數字支付讓外國的旅客在中國使用非常的不方便他進到中國他如果沒有那個系統他如何把他的錢花出去都有困難啊"},{"start":613.226,"end":639.099,"text":"所以連中國的觀光旅遊業都現在都吃到這個苦果所以我的意思是說你要推動這個東西你在研究我也不是反對但是要研究清楚利弊得失都要考慮清楚那這個還有很長的一條路走不要很急因為日本這麼多年來日本的這個現金還是他們國人最喜歡用的東西好不好以上建議謝謝請你參考謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":647.113,"end":648.865,"text":"接著請賴世保、賴委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135fb303ebe3777bc2b836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6eef6df7d42f6b4155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:24:34 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AI Dialogue Engine）是國科會在做，也就是幫各個部會、各行各業做一個念繁體中文的對話引擎，這是本身我們自己做的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，你現在講的是4月有可能會上市的，對不對？4月有可能會出來嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是上市，是公開給業界。"],["洪委員孟楷：4月公開給民眾來使用，是不是？"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是民眾，因為那拿到各個公司還要去加上它的垂直應用才會比較細緻，因為OpenAI、ChatGPT那個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我們在同一個平行時空對話一下，好不好？我認為生成式AI現在是一個趨勢，也認為如果善用這個工具會非常方便、好用。"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如說本席剛剛在準備資料的時候，我就打開ChatGPT打入人工智慧基本法的好處跟缺點，不到十秒鐘就整理出來了，它說好處可以保障使用者的權益、促進創新發展、規範產業標準跟防止濫用風險，但缺點是創新會受限、法律會落後、監管困難以及權責不對等。我現在請教，現在的這個趨勢跟方向也是人工智慧基本法應該要出來嘛？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以520之前有沒有可能出來？在你卸任之前，為臺灣、為我們政府。"],["吳主任委員政忠：不可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：那什麼時候會有這樣的立法計畫？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們原先預期在年底之前。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但那時候你已經不在啦？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們的執政應該會延續。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我的意思是今年年底你怎麼保證可以出來，你現在的立法方向、程序、步驟？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我現在的這個角色是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你可以現在講出來就是交代你們同仁，今年年底人工智慧基本法草案會出爐送到立院，我們可以一起來審理，是不是？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席為什麼會那麼關心？就是因為本席也會有我的版本，我也希望能夠在今年年底的時候看到政院版的人工智慧基本法一起出來，我們可以共同來討論，為什麼？因為在全球生成式AI的發展來講，你也看到各行各業都受到影響，甚至好萊塢之前的罷工也是某種程度因為這個部分，所以還是要有我們國家自己的版本，這你同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。我跟委員報告，歐盟是昨天已經通過議會，歐洲跟美國、日本、英國是不一樣的系統，臺灣剛好在中間，就是一個是創新，另外一個是風險，我們要拿捏……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們臺灣現在的方向會比較屬於往歐盟這邊來指引，還是往美國？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該是somewhere between。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼意思？"],["吳主任委員政忠：因為我們要保障國家的利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，說實在話，這是立法院、中華民國國會殿堂，不是賣弄學術的地方，本席從開始質詢到現在，我都是準備那麼多充分的資料，就是希望可以跟你好好地溝通，跟好好地用淺顯易懂的方式讓國人更瞭解我們現在國科會在做什麼，不是有知識分子的傲慢，所以本席最後請教，你剛剛講歐盟是一個方向，美國是一個方向，我們的版本會比較屬於哪一個方向？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該比較靠近美國、日本跟英國這邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：美國、日本跟英國？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，因為美國……"],["洪委員孟楷：英國也是歐盟。"],["吳主任委員政忠：英國不是歐盟，英國已經脫歐。英國、日本跟美國是先指引後法律，我們也在密切觀察國際的趨勢。事實上法案要提出來是很快啦！但還是有一些要跟外面來做一些協調。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以就是在今年年底以前會有政院版本出來？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，吳主委請回。","我們現在請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.29534375,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.83846875,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.44846875,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.01784375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.52221875000001,"end":71.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.73284375,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.66096875000001,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.99346875,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":83.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.03471875000001,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.31284375,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.56159375,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.34596875000001,"end":93.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.36659375,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.48471875,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.90096875,"end":104.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.62596875,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.79471875000002,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.51096875000002,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.89471875,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.40846875,"end":156.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.05284375000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.97534375,"end":175.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.44659375,"end":188.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.67659375000002,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.11096875,"end":198.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.12221875,"end":212.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.58846875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.96784375000001,"end":236.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.03409375,"end":223.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.39096875,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.33159375000002,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.62471875000003,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.21534375000002,"end":275.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.68409375000005,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.70096875,"end":275.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.66284375000004,"end":292.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.75721875,"end":303.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.44909375000003,"end":294.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.83721875000003,"end":294.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.06784375,"end":316.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.04471875,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.29346875000005,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.98096875000005,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.75721875,"end":320.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.48659375,"end":345.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.35659375,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.31784375,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.24534375,"end":362.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.24846875000003,"end":368.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.88471875000005,"end":368.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.23909375000005,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.61034375,"end":369.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.74534375,"end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這沒問題"},{"start":419.815,"end":441.226,"text":"各位我再來請教一下我們現在在討論剛剛有討論AI的部分那有去年其實7月的時候這個鄭文燦副院長就已經有講是說我們台灣有可能在9月會推出AI基本法人工智慧基本法但之後又講說確定難產所以說我們先來做這個深層式AI的參考質疑對不對"},{"start":442.928,"end":465.186,"text":"本集昨天有拿到我們這個參考指引的部分我先請教我們現在相對來講我們的這個政府機關有沒有哪一個機關現在有從使用深層式AI來做這個執行業務或是提供服務的輔具工具事實上除了就我們了解我們各部會有沒有哪一個部會現在用深層式AI是用得比較好的"},{"start":466.26,"end":477.45,"text":"目前應該是我這邊的這個資料是沒有沒有所以各機關部會都還沒有使用深層式AI因為他們沒有跟我報告"},{"start":479.468,"end":503.578,"text":"有可能有那我們國科會呢我們有沒有利用深層式AI來做一些資訊的比如說會診還是執行業務那個我跟這個委員報告事實上深層式AI跟AI其實AI我們本來就有在用也就是說我們在一些計畫的proposal的盤點本來就有用AI那深層式AI比較大的去年"},{"start":504.198,"end":506.741,"text":"我現在在請教的就是說我們比如說國科會有沒有做生產CII執行業務"},{"start":523.198,"end":545.009,"text":"為什麼會這樣請教因為你的指引裡面有提到其中一點因各機關使用生成式AI做執行業務或是提供服務輔助工具時應該適當揭露 對不對那本席就想請教啊到目前為止沒有看到任何一個下面的這個資訊有講是說我這本文件是用生成式AI處理"},{"start":546.556,"end":562.702,"text":"所以換言之現在到底大家使用的狀況怎麼樣事實上跟委員報告現在那個我們一個台者就是Trustworth AI Dialog Engine是國科會在做也就是幫各個部會各行各業做一個Basic 念繁體中文的對話引擎"},{"start":563.522,"end":591.989,"text":"那這個是以後要用本身我們自己做的我知道你現在講的是4月有可能會上市的嘛對不對4月有可能會出來嘛是公開給對4月有可能公開給民眾來使用嘛不是民眾是不是而是因為那拿去齁各個公司還要去加他的槌子的應用才會比較細緻啦因為那個open AI check GPT那個是主委我們在同一個平行時空對話一下好不好嗯"},{"start":592.589,"end":602.918,"text":"本席剛剛我也認為生成式AI現在是一個趨勢那也認為是說其實如果說你善用這個工具的話會非常方便好用譬如說本席剛剛在"},{"start":604.437,"end":605.778,"text":"午前午前午前午前"},{"start":624.117,"end":648.755,"text":"創新會受限﹑法律會落後﹑還有監管困難以及權責不對等好 那我現在請教我們現在的這個趨勢跟方向也是人工智慧基本法應該要出來嘛是的所以520之前有沒有可能出來在你卸任之前為台灣為我們政府不可能那什麼時候會有這樣的一個計畫立法計畫我們原先預期在年底之前今年年底今年年底"},{"start":649.295,"end":677.893,"text":"但那時候你已經不在啦那我們的執政是延續了應該會延續但是我的意思是說那今年年底你怎麼保證可以出來你現在的這個立法的方向程序步驟我現在的這個決策是所以你可以現在講出來就是說也交代我們同仁今年年底人工智慧基本法草案會出爐送到立院我們可以一起來審理是不是因為本席為什麼會那麼關心就是因為本席也會有"},{"start":678.553,"end":679.053,"text":"我跟委員報告嗎?"},{"start":704.974,"end":733.466,"text":"各位委員報告歐盟那邊是昨天他已經在通過議會嘛歐洲跟美國跟日本英國是不一樣的系統臺灣剛好在中間就是一個是創新另外一個是風險那我們臺灣以現在的方向會比較是屬於往歐盟這邊來指引還是往美國應該 somewhere between什麼意思要拉的因為我們要保障國家的利益不是 主委"},{"start":735.627,"end":760.399,"text":"說實在話這是立法院、中華民國、國會殿堂不是賣弄學術的地方本席從剛開始這個質詢到現在我都是準備那麼多充分的資料就希望可以跟你好好的溝通跟好好的用淺顯易懂的方式讓國人更了解我們現在國科會在做什麼不是有知識分子的傲慢"},{"start":761.676,"end":773.028,"text":"所以本席只想最後請教你剛剛講歐盟是一個方向美國是一個方向我們的版本會比較屬於哪一個方向應該比較靠近美國日本跟英國這邊"},{"start":774.454,"end":776.775,"text":"好,所以就是在今年年底前會有我們政院版本出來是的好,謝謝"},{"start":805.288,"end":806.569,"text":"好謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"149834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135c7de8efbd043ce9c51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6ba0ce5b3b925cb395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:26:44 - 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這個應該也是你們已經有估算過的你們也因為估算過才用這樣去跟行政院提出我們的訴求那當然行政院還沒核定但是我們看到主計長、主計總署他的態度就不一樣"},{"start":175.305,"end":183.185,"text":"那如果今天沒有到達1500億那是不是有可能我們漲的電費會更高?"},{"start":185.317,"end":190.241,"text":"關於這個細節坦白講那個很多的數據然後我們會很來精算那另外一個就是說在過往電價審議會這邊也其實都有考慮到確實包括通膨的問題怎麼樣怎麼樣做細緻的安排那也確實前兩次也有這樣的例子不是部長因為今天這個新聞一出來大家開始擔心啊因為1500億是當時候"},{"start":215.537,"end":235.125,"text":"經濟部一定是經由我們國營會台電大家估算過大概有1500億會對於整個電價的虧損跟我們漲電價的壓力會減到最輕所以才有這個數字可是現在主計總署的意思是我們如果要用1500億"},{"start":237.006,"end":257.563,"text":"可能未來政府的一個運用餘額就會不夠會有危險所以這個會產生什麼樣的狀況那是不是如果萬一沒有1500億會漲得更高部長我今天在這裡慎重拜託"},{"start":259.656,"end":287.485,"text":"今天我們不能讓人民有太多壓力在電價部分我們一直講既然有撥補或是有虧損的一個補貼我們要從民生不論多少就是從民生不要讓民生漲得太高你一漲的話會轉嫁到物價物價一上去就回不來了"},{"start":289.205,"end":317.536,"text":"現在承受不了現在的狀況是承受不了的部長可不可以是是委員提到的這個部分確實也是店家審議會裡面而最關切的其中一個議題那這個我們會細緻的安排是就是不論你今天最後院版拍板定案跟主計總處協調到哪一個金額不管多少金額都是要由民生"},{"start":318.815,"end":337.727,"text":"先去做這樣的一個撥補補貼絕對不能讓整個民生壓力造成炸鍋這個是我們再三拜託否則今天我相信這樣的一個新聞出來大家就開始議論紛紛了是不是會一飛從天"},{"start":344.264,"end":370.047,"text":"一次漲到夠、一次漲到足這些很多的問號就出來了對現在整個民生經濟的發展絕對是不利的我們都會很仔細的來考慮委員提的這些問題這個部長要麻煩一下齁極力爭取回歸民生讓民生能夠穩定住物價"},{"start":372.174,"end":400.664,"text":"這才是我們在經濟發展當中非常重要的依據還有我之前非常關心的就是我們的管線問題部長我們地下管線的圖資國營事業地下管線圖資是由國營司在負責的但是你知道當時候其實臺南就發生了臺南山上淨水廠下游送水管線"},{"start":402.113,"end":431.12,"text":"的工程被挖斷管路好上個禮拜台南仁德又發生了天然氣管線遭挖斷雖然緊急處置後還有待修復可是雖然馬上去做了緊急處理可是表示這是有危機的我們地下管線的圖資根本沒有辦法監控"},{"start":432.895,"end":445.787,"text":"挖下去發生問題了才知道怎麼彌補可是如果沒有挖到大家就覺得是這樣嗎我們的土地在地底下"},{"start":448.164,"end":475.974,"text":"在這個地下管線的投資這個我確實有責成相關的單位包括我們經濟部的中油、台電、台水那甚至其實有一些是別的部會的管線那這個部分第一個會有幾個情形一個就是當時蓋的時候跟後來其實地形有一點點變動這是第一個可是變動也不可能變動到說因為它在施工一定有一個"},{"start":477.154,"end":487.941,"text":"所謂的阿蘇比的空間他不可能說我今天就從他旁邊硬是要把它挖進去不可能嘛他一定有一個緩衝那這個緩衝請問怎麼可能會因為整個地質變動然後差了那麼遠差了那麼大"},{"start":498.288,"end":501.429,"text":"現在這些我有責成大家第一個有新的科技第二個有一些比較好的工法來預防這些再挖斷的問題現在就是有可以在施工前使用探測儀器進行探測現在是重點我們有沒有落實大家就便宜行事挖了我們再說我有責成他們這個確實要去做現在好像大家的"},{"start":526.781,"end":529.203,"text":"共識是這樣欸,挖刀算倒霉喔?沒有沒有,這個確實委員講這是一個很重、要重視的議題沒有,部長,一個月請把到底我們國營師對於我們國營事業的這三項油、電、水我們的管線到底怎麼處理,地下投資怎麼辦?"},{"start":551.909,"end":577.867,"text":"之前我就要求過了,現在還沒看到半點文字麻煩一下,一個月馬上給我們。他們前幾天有送一份報告,剛送。那個不很清楚,我要清楚你們未來SOP要怎麼做。謝謝。國營司可以嗎?一個月內可以把清楚的資料都送,然後也送給經濟委員會的每一位委員,好不好?"}]}},{"id":"149833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135274878d766d757a9d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6f6a0a69783eab37e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:16:50 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屏東就是這樣 沒錯"},{"start":99.68,"end":123.266,"text":"越來越嚴重看到這麼糟糕的那個空氣汙染我們憲政委員很高興我是覺得他們是搞不清狀況每次人去跟民眾 因為民眾沒水 只有海泥因為他看沒水 每天都有沙沙"},{"start":125.745,"end":145.72,"text":"那你看看這全部都是高雄那些尤其是臨盆那些 臨盆那些啦新達港啦 秘密媽媽 大林 福利發電廠啦跟林彥光的這個中港 中港也有百有對的喔這些排碳啦 PM2.5啦 PM10啦"},{"start":147.148,"end":172.647,"text":"你是念奈米科技的齁 所以齁 你應該這 這很清楚齁 那我們高 屏東的肺腺癌很高 非常高齁 我不知道是不是全球第一啦齁 你看看 看看這個 你看以前是紫 紫豹 現在是紅點啦 因為怕紫豹不好看齁 所以都把那個標準降低齁 你看 這樣 都是在這沿海這一帶 所以我這裡要問部長齁"},{"start":177.961,"end":184.229,"text":"新達火力化電廠的二氧化碳CO2的排放量是台灣第幾名?"},{"start":185.741,"end":213.018,"text":"根文報告事實上新達火力化電廠已經在去年全部替換燃煤以燃氣來燃用乾淨的煤是不是我們總統講的用天然氣的已經全部都轉換了所以我們也非常感謝經濟部台電真的非常努力事實上新達火力化電廠已經沒有再燃煤了都是用燃氣進行新達火力化電廠的排碳量是全台灣第二名"},{"start":214.178,"end":224.003,"text":"全世界113名中鋼是全世界141名這都很嚴重的然後清達福利化電廠大林福利化電廠40%的電北送"},{"start":228.019,"end":243.32,"text":"南電北送然後這個電廠一般火力發電廠25年他已經39年40年還在搞當然你說換基礎這樣是算新的還算舊的我也搞不清楚所以我們高屏尤其是屏東"},{"start":244.321,"end":259.288,"text":"沒有享受到好處,整個風這樣,像你剛才說的,撥過來,都撥去屏東,中安山脈兩千多公尺又把他擋住,所以我們從潮州、屏東、太湖,這樣到來義,迷迷茫茫,以為每天都蒙蒙飄飄,以為是三藍之氣,結果都是空汙。部長,你要怎麼做?你新的部長要怎麼做?我們要繼續騷擾他嗎?"},{"start":273.022,"end":299.444,"text":"給蘇委員報告這一點我感同身受所以像最近昨天包括我們跟NASA的空屋策戰的那個就是選定高雄跟屏東因為我們看過去這些年來的一個紀錄真的是高屏地區空屋的情況特別嚴重秋冬季節這個吹北風東北風就跑到南部來那"},{"start":300.745,"end":326.465,"text":"春夏是讓我們東南沿岸這些東南亞國家他們燃燒森池吹西南風說真的也是第一個受害方式 環境大廳也滑溜大廳也滑溜啦我們屏東的空汙補助會跟國融也比不上國融所以我們第一次要求屏東的空汙補助要提高第二我今天有提案"},{"start":327.586,"end":332.944,"text":"我們今天要做提檢,尤其是新費功能的,要給我們補助。"},{"start":333.888,"end":339.65,"text":"給蘇院報告我們盡量來配合我覺得這個是應該做某一個程度的補助我是心中的科醫生PM2.5就是跟癌症、心血管疾病PM10就是跟PM2.5、PM10有關係再來就是不孕症那都有絕對的關係"},{"start":362.466,"end":386.228,"text":"現在年輕女性就是乳癌肺腺癌藍的也是肺腺癌都越來越高而且越來年輕化所以我一直在羨慕我們部長你是從在澎湖享受好的空氣所以我今天的提案也跟你報告再來就是那個排碳先明年後年要開始收稅了對不對"},{"start":387.54,"end":391.868,"text":"碳費對那一年要五六千億台幣是真的嗎沒有啦哪裡有到五六千億啊沒有勒"},{"start":397.182,"end":417.21,"text":"你如果說是加速說三百塊一桶三百塊一桶也差不多四百億還是多少全台灣的對就全台灣因為我們現在分階段首先是對排碳量超過2.5萬噸每年針對這大戶大概550家"},{"start":422.697,"end":446.123,"text":"那接下來實施一段時間之後 這個門檻可能會來檢討會繼續往下那終究我們就是覺得要進齡必須要全民運動光靠企業也不夠但是根據我們的資料的確是排蛋大戶大概是這550家就佔了將近75%所以當然是要先從這一塊來處理"},{"start":449.42,"end":472.708,"text":"我們屏東一年的空氣污染是超過168天整個一年是一半都是紙爆所以部長接下來我會緊盯著環保環境支援部我會盯得緊緊的再來我們講屏東我們那個高鐵特定區那邊我昨天特別"},{"start":475.298,"end":499.85,"text":"質詢我們相關的單位你看到這個是屏東高鐵站 紅紅一堆那些民營 長安博查的所在都要離一公里而已 一公里通啊所以這家的化工廠我昨天要求那個勞動部一定要加強契合 你們環環環保環境支援部家有得有得了嗎"},{"start":501.462,"end":503.115,"text":"我在跟著monitor或者是"},{"start":504.87,"end":531.021,"text":"我們謝署長報告一下好了報告委員因為高鐵特定區它是屬於關鍵基礎設施所以在災防法下來交通部本來在關鍵基礎設施就有一個計畫我們會參與裡面另外高鐵站附近就是民航國際這裡也有運作獨奧的廠商所以我們會把它涵蓋在裡面那現在都是監控啦訓練室都在做所以這個地方要特別用心因為這個地方我們保料啦現在鐵都給我們保料"},{"start":532.824,"end":533.445,"text":"好謝謝蘇委員好謝謝蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"149831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231350b0bb113b381d07d9acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a651013c85a2468dcd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:15:34 - 09:27:39","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":725,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:27:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:15:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":78,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時15分）謝謝主席。楊總裁、與會央行各單位列席主管、本會的委員以及所有媒體記者女士先生。請楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員德福：總裁早。我請教你，很多民眾最近一直在問，我們都知道最近ETF很夯，很多人認為它有股息分配，有的有月配，有的有季配，有的有半年配等等，在整個市場是真的非常夯，而且它所占的比例也很高，那我要請教總裁，像它這麼夯，你認為ETF到底存在哪些風險，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：ETF的風險，第一個，它會助漲上去，大家都上去。"],["林委員德福：我看好像上去比較多，下來比較少，目前看是這樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：目前是這樣啦！但是……"],["林委員德福：還是整個大勢好？"],["楊總裁金龍：長久也是會波動，大家都上去，大家都下來，這就是它的風險，一樣的啦！就是說你投資資產的時候，都是會有這樣的一個風險。最近委員也知道，金管會對於ETF這樣的熱絡，它也覺得有一點太……我覺得它也認為是有一點太過、太熱了，所以它也要採取一些措施。"],["林委員德福：一些配合的措施。"],["楊總裁金龍：要來壓抑它的過度。"],["林委員德福：因為很多民眾想瞭解啊！央行你們的立場要讓大家瞭解。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，因為他都不曉得ETF是什麼，大家一窩蜂的就herding，就是金融市場裡面在講的群眾的效率，大家就一窩蜂的……"],["林委員德福：一窩蜂去追。"],["楊總裁金龍：一窩蜂，就像羊一樣一窩蜂的跳下去、跳下去，它這個是跳上去、跳上去。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：嗯。"],["林委員德福：那我再請教總裁，主計總處預估今年的 CPI年增率上修0.21個百分點到1.85%，不過，這次的通膨預測並未包括電價調整，所以等到電價調整確定後，CPI有機會再往上修。那我請問總裁，電價調整對各行業的價格是不是一定會發生一些連鎖效應？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想，基本上，它的直接效果是一定會有，而間接的效果，就是企業在電價調漲以後，企業的成本增高，它要轉嫁。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是看它轉嫁的力道如何。"],["林委員德福：那我要請教總裁，依您的看法，到底它會個別反應還是連鎖反應？還會不會有一些加乘效應，導致整個通膨預測失準？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，中央銀行很怕的是，我們很擔心的是會有一種連鎖性的……"],["林委員德福：會連鎖？"],["楊總裁金龍：第二個，會預期性的，因為我們打通膨是預防通膨的預期心理，這個我們非常注意，所以講到通膨，中央銀行是非常小心的。"],["林委員德福：如果要是個別反應，你認為哪些產業衝擊最大？個別的喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：個別的話，我想一般外食這些也都會啦！以前我有看過一個paper是產業關聯表，有哪些產業的衝擊會比較大，像電力或什麼的產業，它的衝擊就會更大。"],["林委員德福：就是用電戶用電大一點的衝擊面會越大。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！但是有些時候譬如像科技業的用電量大、提高、上升，但是它也不見得一定會轉嫁，因為它賺了足夠的利潤。"],["林委員德福：對，我知道。總裁，台電電價調整的方式是準備不分級距全面性調漲，只是漲幅的不同，雖然疫情後通膨似乎已經有控制，但你認為在這個時機來調漲電價適當嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，據我瞭解，經濟部也是為了，第一個要看我們的預算能夠補貼台電多少，所以我看報紙、我看媒體也都是在講1,000億或是1,500億，1,500億的話調升幅度就會比較小，1,000億的話調升幅度就比較大。現在經濟部也是在開會，到4月份就會做最後決定。"],["林委員德福：那你認為在這個時機點來調漲電價，對整個物價的影響會不會比過去油電雙漲那時候衝擊小，還是有可能發生難以預測的轉嫁效應呢？依您看。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得，基本上從以往來看，衝擊是不會很大。不過這一次是因為它提早提出來，所以大家就很廣泛地去討論這個議題，我比較擔心的是一個通膨預期的心理。"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：就它實際的一個影響，我在想也不是如大家所非常擔心的會一直調漲、調漲，也不會啦！從以前……"],["林委員德福：因為現在就在講，所以會不會可能發生難以預期的轉嫁效應？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：就主管機關來講的話，它的調整固定就是4月和10月嘛！"],["林委員德福：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：它因為虧損，以及為了維持物價穩定，它又有吸收一些成本，所以它也不得不提出來，這就是它不得不的地方。"],["林委員德福：總裁，12年前油電雙漲的背景，相信當時身為副總裁的你應該還記憶猶新。台經院景氣預測中心孫明德主任認為，從主計總處2月的消費者物價指數年增率暴漲至3.08%，加上4月電價調漲在即，利率的政策恐怕會有檢討的機會，那我請問總裁，下個禮拜中央銀行要開理監事會，會不會討論利率的問題呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，每次利率的問題都會討論。"],["林委員德福：都會討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也會討論，我相信會討論。"],["林委員德福：在通膨疑慮沒有消除，消費者物價指數有可能因為電價調漲出現2%的疑慮，請問總裁，央行下半年有沒有可能不會降息？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛我的報告裡面也有講到，美國、英國，還有歐元區市場現在都在預測它可能會下降，但是臺灣畢竟跟他們稍微不大一樣……"],["林委員德福：不大一樣？那你認為……"],["楊總裁金龍：不大一樣，因為我們臺灣升息的速度跟歐美這些不大一樣，我們是很委婉地、持續地、慢慢地提升。"],["林委員德福：我知道，要是像這種狀況會不會沒有降息反而是升息的可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們會討論？"],["林委員德福：會討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會討論。"],["林委員德福：因為你要抑制通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我剛剛也是在講通膨的預期心理，至於這個預期，像以前我們的通膨都是1%左右，平均長期都是，現在假設是平均1.5%，或是1.5%到2%以上的話，這個很顯然就是結構性有一些改變，這個利率恐怕就不會像以前那樣的……"],["林委員德福：有可能會再往上調？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，利率恐怕不會像以前那麼的低檔。"],["林委員德福：總裁，因為媒體報導主計處估算如果民生用電調漲10%，對CPI直接影響是0.12%，並且企業電價調高也會轉嫁成本，加上最近包括健保掛號費調漲等等效應，今年通膨率將再度逼近2%的通膨警戒線，甚至於有可能破2%。總裁，對比油電雙漲時候那種經濟的情勢，本席認為目前的經濟環境應該是更為險峻。當時為了展現政府抑制通膨的決心，央行實施多項政策手段，請問面對4月電價調漲，央行準備好了嗎？還是真的要雙手一攤放任民生消費物資變成天花板物價持續地往上拉？會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們會很謹慎的，這一次我們會很謹慎地來討論利率。"],["林委員德福：因為本席是憂心近期恐怕又有缺水的疑慮，再加上碳費要開徵後的影響，通膨捲土重來，請問總裁，這是經濟成長國家的民眾應該期待的一個結果嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，央行主要的目標還是通膨。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：特別我剛剛所提到的通膨預期的心理，這個我們會很謹慎地、很周延地來討論。"],["林委員德福：我是希望在這方面你們要很審慎，怎麼來因應，多列一些看未來要怎麼去處理是最適當的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們會的。"],["主席：下一位請吳秉叡吳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","賴惠員","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.00909375,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.847843750000003,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.80284375,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.81971875,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.54534375,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":30.878468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":33.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.94971875,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.57784375,"end":57.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.065343750000004,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.49034375,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.367843750000006,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.72534375000001,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.65721875,"end":70.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.98971875000001,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.61721875,"end":83.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.72659375,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.25784375,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.44346875000001,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.36284375000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.24034375000001,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.27409375,"end":92.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.28221875000001,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.37909375000001,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":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我們是預防這個通膨的預期的心理 這個我們非常注意 所以通膨啊 講到通膨啊 中央銀行是非常小心的 那如果要是個別反應 你認為哪些產業衝擊最大 個別的喔"},{"start":264.734,"end":264.754,"text":"對啦"},{"start":291.534,"end":304.161,"text":"當然啦當然但是呢就是說有些時候比如像說那個科技業他的那個用電量提高上升但是呢他也不見得他一定會轉嫁因為他他賺了足夠的"},{"start":308.003,"end":322.014,"text":"總裁,台電電價調整的方式是準備不分局劇,全面性的調漲只是漲幅的不同雖然疫情後通膨似乎已經有控制但你認為在這個時機來調漲電價,你認為適當嗎?"},{"start":326.737,"end":352.585,"text":"我跟委員報告這個也就是說經濟部據我了解經濟部也是為了就是說第一個就是說要看我們的預算給能夠補貼我們台電多少所以呢我看報紙啊我看媒體啊他也都是在講啊一千億或是一千五百億一千五百億的話他的調升呢他的幅度就會比較小一千億的話呢他的調升的幅度就會比較大"},{"start":353.385,"end":362.011,"text":"那現在呢就是說經濟部呢他也是就是說他們現在也是在開什麼會那這4月份的話就會做最後的那你認為在這個時機點來調漲電價對整個物價的影響會不會比過去啊有點雙長"},{"start":370.057,"end":393.996,"text":"那時候衝擊小還是有可能發生能預測的轉嫁效應呢因您看我覺得基本上從以往的來看衝擊是不會是很大不過這一次是因為他提早提出來所以大家都是很廣泛的去討論這個議題我比較擔心的是一個通膨預期的心理"},{"start":400.243,"end":416.862,"text":"對啊那那就是就他實際的一個影響呢我在想呢也不是如大家所說非常擔心的就是說我我會大家都會一直一直調漲調漲也不會說有可能以前等你先前現在就在講嗯會不會就是"},{"start":417.603,"end":434.775,"text":"而這個可能發生難以預期的這些轉嫁效應會不會因為因為好因為就是說就就主管機關來講的話呢他因為他他的條條條條整呢是固定的就是4月嗎4月和10月嗎對這個呢"},{"start":436.056,"end":456.524,"text":"所以呢他又因為他也會因為虧損因為就為了維持啊物價的穩定啊所以呢他吸收一些的成本那所以他也不得不提出來這個就是他不得不的地方總裁因為12年前郵電雙廠的背景相信當時身為副總裁的你啊應該還記憶猶新啊"},{"start":459.325,"end":480.444,"text":"台晶園景氣預測中心孫明德主任認為說從主計總處二月的消費者物價指數年增率暴漲至3.08%再加上四月電價調漲再急利率恐怕"},{"start":481.545,"end":498.358,"text":"會有檢討的機會這些政策利率的政策可能會有檢討的機會那我請問總裁下個禮拜這個中央銀行要開理監事會會不會討論利率的問題包委員每次呢這個利率的問題都會討論也就是說對也會討論"},{"start":503.399,"end":518.867,"text":"但是在通膨餘率沒有消除消費者物價指數有可能因為電價調漲出現百分之二的餘率啊那請問總裁央行下半年有沒有可能不會降息會不會"},{"start":523.311,"end":542.261,"text":"嗯...剛剛我的報告裡面有講到就是說美國還有英國還有歐元區都在就是說現在市場都在預測說它可能會下降但是台灣畢竟跟他們稍微不大一樣不大一樣所以呢基本上我都覺得就是說通膨高"},{"start":544.163,"end":558.818,"text":"因為我們台灣升息的速度跟歐美這些不大一樣我們是很委婉的持續的慢慢的上升我知道那要是像這種狀況會不會說沒有降息反而是升息的可能這個我們會討論"},{"start":561.16,"end":580.14,"text":"會討論會討論因為你要一致通膨是我們特別我剛剛也是在講就是說通膨的預期心理那這個通膨的預期心理那如果說這個預期如果說像以前我們的通膨都是1%左右平均長期都是平均那現在如果假設說是平均1.5"},{"start":581.861,"end":595.794,"text":"或是1.5到2%以上的話那這個呢很顯然就是結果性有一些的改變那這個利率呢恐怕就不會像以前那樣的利率呢就恐怕不會像以前的那麼的低檔那個"},{"start":599.199,"end":608.288,"text":"總裁,因為主計長媒體報導說主計處估算如果民生用電調漲10%對CPI直接影響是0.12%並且企業電價調高也會轉嫁成本加上最近"},{"start":617.637,"end":633.069,"text":"包括這個卷寶的掛號會啊條長等等效應啊今年通膨率將再度逼近啊百分之二的通膨警戒警戒線甚至有可能破百分之二總裁那對比油電雙漲的時候"},{"start":634.89,"end":658.76,"text":"那種經濟的情勢本席是認為目前的經濟環境應該是更為險峻那當時為了展現政府意志通膨的決心央行實施多項的政策手段請問面對4月電價調漲央行準備好了嗎還是真的要雙手一攤放任民生這些消費的物資這個"},{"start":661.261,"end":684.492,"text":"變成天花板的物價持續的往上拉我該委員報告我們會很謹慎的我們會這一次會很謹慎的來討論這個利率因為本期是憂心說近期恐怕又有缺水的餘率再加上碳會要開增後的影響通盆捲土重來那請問總裁這是經濟成長國家的民眾應該期待的一個結果嗎"},{"start":690.014,"end":690.174,"text":"教會請吳秉瑞吳委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"149830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135e40760b6dc23dbac836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6b79a220842b8dbde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:11:48 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09:24:29","影片長度":"00:12:41","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":761,"end_time":"2024-03-14T09:24:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T09:11:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":32,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時11分）謝謝召委，有請吳政忠主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：萬委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：主委早，我想主委您從2016年蔡英文總統上任之後就擔任行政院的科技政委，接著您又擔任科技部部長很長一段時間，然後新的國科會成立之後，你又擔任首任主任委員，可以說是在科技這個部分扮演非常重要的角色，也有很多延續性的政策，最近耳聞賴準總統已經有徵詢過你願不願意續任，有這件事嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：沒有，完全沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你沒有被徵詢到？"],["吳主任委員政忠：沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：那這樣很遺憾欸，你表現得這麼好，然後所有的科技政策都是延續的，結果沒有徵詢你，你會不會有點失望？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該不會。"],["萬委員美玲：還是你時間還沒到？"],["吳主任委員政忠：什麼時間還沒到？"],["萬委員美玲：就是徵詢你的時間還沒到。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我不知道。"],["萬委員美玲：那會徵詢你嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我當然也不知道。"],["萬委員美玲：你會期待嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我不會期待。"],["萬委員美玲：你不期待？所以你完全就是想離開這個位子？"],["吳主任委員政忠：跟委員報告，記得我們當年念大學，4年就要畢業，直攻博士也是4年，我已經4年加4年，應該畢業回到民間社會。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你就是勢必會離開這個位子了？啊！這樣子滿可惜的喔。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的關心。"],["萬委員美玲：我想國科會的同仁應該也會很捨不得你，說實話表現真的還不錯，但是我們還是要在520之前，即便您已經決定要離開這個位子了，但是做一天和尚敲一天鐘，何況我相信您也是兢兢業業地在做。所以我們今天來討論一下，本席看到科學園區的整體營業額從2015年開始，你看一下這個表，連續8年都是攀升的，但是在去年我們看到整個營收3兆9,439億，比2022年的4兆2,700億，衰退了整整有7.56%，其實滿多的，這個原因是什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上我們在看經濟的成長是看3年、5年的那個趨勢，那個趨勢是往上，但是在2021的時候大概因為COVID，然後預期未來會需要很多的半導體晶片，事實上半導體扮演一個滿大的weighting，所以我想我們對於這一個數字，不是那麼擔心，因為在往上的過程會有稍微的拉回，這個是正常的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以您是有信心的。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：但是我們來看，行政院其實已經算拍板定案了啦，大概4月份或者4月以後就會漲電價，之前我們在2022、2023年針對用電大戶都有調漲過電價，如果這一次4月份再漲，而且傳出恐怕要漲25%，非常地多，現在我們看到營收下滑，雖然你認為要看趨勢，那有沒有可能從今年開始這個趨勢是整個往下的？因為您是看過去累積到今年，而電價又要漲，這會不會雪上加霜？"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上這個是yes and no，就是我們臺灣的半導體扮演滿大的角色，知道那個weighting滿大的時候，半導體的獲利率是非常高的，所以電費在它的比例中事實上沒有占那麼大。"],["萬委員美玲：你的意思是半導體產業不在乎漲電價？"],["吳主任委員政忠：不是不在乎，而是說它會去衡量，我想經濟部那個審議委員會在定電價的時候也會考慮到各個不同stakeholder的忍受度，我想他們會來全盤考量。"],["萬委員美玲：我想經濟部在考量的時候，您的意見也扮演很重要的角色，本席其實不認為半導體因為過去獲利各方面就會不在乎漲電價，因為用電量很大，所以我希望經濟部在考量針對用電大戶漲電價的時候，您也可以提供必要的意見。","接下來我再跟您討論關於一個很大的計畫叫做「桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案」，是去年選前的時候12月賴清德準總統推出的，他說要擴大科學園區的版圖等等，甚至說他預期這個方案會帶來6兆產值、增加14萬就業人口，本席的選區就在桃園，所以我們也引領期盼到底這個計畫會對桃園帶來什麼樣正面的幫助，不過據本席瞭解，這一個計畫的主責單位是國發會，但是整個計畫的核心，我想國科會扮演很重要的角色，主委，這個計畫您個人有沒有參與？團隊參與度到什麼地方？能不能簡單說明一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：就科學園區的部分，當然國科會有參與，我們的管理局這邊有參與，我們的科學園區從新竹開始，事實上不管往南或往北，都在延伸，所以那是一個必然的趨勢，包括在桃園龍潭那邊也是一個……"],["萬委員美玲：到底什麼叫大矽谷計畫呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：大矽谷就是我們桃竹苗。"],["萬委員美玲：內容是什麼呢？要做什麼呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個要問國發會。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您也不知道？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我大概知道，基本上就是從新竹這邊往南、往北的擴張，那大矽谷事實上圍著半導體……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，這邊我打斷你一下，我覺得其實您真的很接地氣，你知道嗎？因為你的看法跟本席、跟桃園市民或新竹、苗栗的市民都一樣，因為我們也不知道，只聽到一個沸沸揚揚的大計畫，然後預算高達200億，我們就聽到一個名稱非常讓人驚艷的計畫，讓人家覺得非常驚訝的一筆預算，但內容是什麼，真的都不知道。雖然主責單位是國發會，但我們知道詳細的計畫核心，其實國科會扮演了很重要的角色，如果現在我們都還不知道這個計畫內容是什麼，其實本席非常擔憂，因為前面已經有一個例子，端來一個這麼大、烤得香香的大餅，叫做台積電要來桃園了，結果一場空，現在再來一個「桃竹苗大矽谷計畫」，那是不是每4年選舉一到就要餵我們桃園吃一塊大餅，但是看得見吃不到？我覺得這樣是不行的。當然主委即將在520離開，但我希望把握最後的時間，針對既然已經提出來的大矽谷計畫，能不能有更詳盡的內容？不管是國科會要負責的或者主責是國發會，只要跟您相關，能不能會後提供至少有一個內容的資料，讓我們瞭解？"],["吳主任委員政忠：針對科學園區以後的一些想法，我想我們會來提供。"],["萬委員美玲：好，多久可以提供給本席辦公室？不要告訴我520以前，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那1個月啦。"],["萬委員美玲：1個月，好，那就麻煩您了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來再請教一下晶創計畫，本席之前也有關心過，這個計畫是一個10年計畫，預計要投入3,000億的經費，希望能夠在今年在中東歐國家設置第一個海外基地，這個海外基地的功能非常多，主要也有希望吸引國際學生來臺就讀、產業界人士來臺發展，或者做全球IC人才的布局等等，立意非常良善，我看到現在我們國科會駐外的科技組，在中東歐的國家大概是德國、捷克跟立陶宛這三個國家，還有其他的嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：法國有，在歐洲一共有6個地點。"],["萬委員美玲：這個計畫現在有沒有鎖定要先以哪一個國家開始？當然我會這樣問，我想不管本席是中華民國與捷克國會友好聯誼會的會長，過去科技部跟捷克之間也有很多很好的互動，所以本席也在想我們如果能夠以捷克為第一個開始的話，這個計畫是不是能夠更順利一些？主委可不可以回答一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：萬委員提到的晶創的確是臺灣未來10年滿重要的計畫，也就是說，從科技引領到未來生成式人工智慧，包括IC design，我想捷克是一個滿符合我們想法的國家，應該是近期之內我們會確定是在哪一個城市。我跟委員報告，那個不是在哪一個國家而已，而是在那個city它周邊的國家，它是扮演一個整合的角色，所以應該是周邊也包括在內，比如說中東歐全部一起來的，所以應該是在某一個城市。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們也希望這個能夠儘快開始，因為每一個計畫喊出來以後，執行落實才是最重要的。","最後，我想主委也知道本席對於女性科技人才的支持向來不遺餘力，我們看到其實國科會有一個案子叫做鼓勵女性從事科學及技術研究的專案執行計畫，關於相關成果，我們看一下這個表列，110年的執行率是103%，111年是115%，112年是105%，可以說執行率算是相當地好，這個主委認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這應該是要鼓勵，謝謝委員支持女力的增強，事實上這就是在鼓勵女性，他如果因為生育或whatever計畫停了幾年以後，我們給他一個窗口。"],["萬委員美玲：當然，所以這個執行率主委滿意嗎？103%、115%及105%，這是相當棒嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：都超過……"],["萬委員美玲：滿意嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是……"],["萬委員美玲：滿意？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以再持續精進。"],["萬委員美玲：還想要再增加到110%、120%？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以，但是也要看……"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我們再看下一張表格，麻煩召委再給我1分鐘時間好不好？我們再看一下下一張表格，雖然執行率這麼高，這代表著大家都需要，大家都願意來申請，可是我們看到在110年、111年和112年，整個核定率卻是三成不到，只有百分之二十幾。你看申請的件數，110年高達517件，但你們只核定129件；112年申請件數還是有405件，但你們只核定了118件。這三年所有的核定率只有28%、非常地低，但你看執行率都已經超過100%了，這代表著什麼？這代表著你們的預算編得不夠，對不對？如果這個需求量是很大的，那麼你們的核定數就不應該到這麼低，我不相信他們送來的計畫會差到讓你覺得核定率沒有辦法再繼續給他們，是不是預算太低，所以你們沒有辦法去做？我們可以看到我們有很多的錢是用在養蚊子館，有很多錢其實是有浪費的，但在這一塊，我們既然要鼓勵女性從事科學跟技術的研究，那麼是不是我們的預算上面要重新去做考量？在執行上面還有核定上面，我們要不要有新的思維？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員，事實上，這方面如果增加我是贊成的啦！我回去再來看看到底是什麼樣的問題，預算我想應該是……"],["萬委員美玲：核定率為什麼這麼低？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我請處長來說明。"],["萬委員美玲：我們都要鼓勵他了，為什麼你們的核定率這麼低，只有百分之二十幾？"],["彭處長麗春：因為這個專案的預算目前每年是編列9,000萬，主要是因為預算是一個考量。"],["萬委員美玲：所以核定率低的原因就是因為預算不足嘛，你也不能核太多嘛，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解……"],["萬委員美玲：這樣不對、這樣本末倒置啦，主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們儘量來做，預算增加我是贊成的。"],["萬委員美玲：當然我們都贊成，所以我們要付諸行動，好不好？好的計畫、有需求，那就不應該因為沒有預算而把核定率降低，這樣是不對的。針對這一點，既然我們有共識，那我們就來看看怎麼修正好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝，因為我們第一步就踏出去嘛，如果有需要再增加，那我們就來增加，這個應該沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：主委加油！520之前繼續看你表現好嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.207218750000001,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.872218750000002,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":46.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.095343750000005,"end":48.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.32721875,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.727843750000005,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.28471875,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.78659375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.507843750000006,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.06846875,"end":57.844718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.266593750000006,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.228468750000005,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.24534375,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.99596875,"end":63.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.485343750000006,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.84784375000001,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.01659375,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":65.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.16846875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":68.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.72909375,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.75846875,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.58534375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.18346875,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.48596875000001,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.71346875,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.42221875,"end":132.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.05471875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.82221875,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.15784375,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.33596875,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.40596875,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.80659375000002,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.51721875,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.81034375000002,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.13909375,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.37534375,"end":19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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":134.055,"end":160.133,"text":"市長我們在看那個經濟的成長事實上是看3年5年的那個趨勢所以那個趨勢是往上但是因為2022剛好在2021的時候大概因為COVID然後去預期說未來會需要很多的半導體晶片事實上半導體扮演一個蠻大的waiting所以我想我們對於這個數字我不是那麼的擔心因為那個"},{"start":162.054,"end":176.738,"text":"他在往上的過程會有稍微的拉回 這個是正常的好 所以您是有信心的嗎 是的好 那但是我們來看因為行政院其實已經算拍板定案了大概4月份或者4月以後其實都會漲電價那之前其實我們在這個2022、2023針對用電大戶其實我們都有調漲過這個電價了但是如果這一次4月份再漲而且傳出恐怕要漲25%非常的多"},{"start":188.962,"end":201.7,"text":"現在我們看到營收下滑雖然你認為他是這個趨勢要看趨勢但本席看到是說那有沒有可能從今年開始這個趨勢是整個往下因為您是看過去累積到今年那店家要漲那這會不會雪上加霜"},{"start":203.407,"end":220.717,"text":"事實上大家如果看這個是yes and no就是說我們這個臺灣的半導體扮演蠻大的角色那知道那個waiting蠻大的時候半導體的獲利率是非常高的所以電費在他的這個比例裡面事實上沒有佔那麼大"},{"start":221.357,"end":238.402,"text":"你的意思是說拜託金產業不在乎漲金價?不是不在乎,也就是說他會去衡量,但是我想經濟部在他們那個審議委員會在訂電價的時候也會考慮到各個不同的stakeholder他的一些忍受度,那我想他們會來全盤考量。"},{"start":240.242,"end":241.022,"text":"接下來我再跟您討論關於一個很大的計畫叫做桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案"},{"start":266.387,"end":276.799,"text":"在去年選前的時候12月賴清哲準統統推出了桃竹苗大矽谷計畫那他說是要擴大這個科學園區的版圖等等那甚至於說這個方案他預期會帶來這個產值6兆增加14萬就業人口那本席的選區就在桃園那所以我們也引領期盼"},{"start":285.469,"end":301.76,"text":"到底這個計畫對桃園到時候帶來什麼樣正面的一個幫助不過據本席瞭解這一個計畫整個主責的單位是國發會但是整個計畫的核心我想這個國科會扮演很重要的角色那主委這個計畫您個人有沒有參與團隊參與度到什麼地方能不能簡單說明一下"},{"start":307.323,"end":327.15,"text":"究科學園區的部分當然國科會有參與我們這個管理局這邊有參與那在桃竹苗這邊事實上我們那個科學園區從新竹開始那事實上往南往北都在這個延伸嘛所以那個是一個必然的趨勢包括在桃園的龍潭那邊也是一個那到底什麼叫大細股計畫呢大細股就是我們桃竹苗"},{"start":331.459,"end":356.986,"text":"內容是什麼呢?要做什麼呢?那個要問國發會所以您也不知道我大概知道但是也就是說基本上從我們的這個新竹這邊往南往北的擴張那大溪谷事實上主委我想這邊我打斷您一下我覺得其實您真的很接地氣你知道嗎因為您的看法跟本席跟桃園市民或者這個新竹苗栗的市民大家看法都一樣因為我們也不知道"},{"start":357.446,"end":363.09,"text":"就聽到一個沸沸揚揚的大計畫然後呢高達這個預算兩百億我們就聽到一個名稱非常這個讓人家驚豔的名稱的一個計畫然後讓人家覺得非常驚訝的一筆預算然後內容是什麼真的都不知道那但是雖然說主責單位是國發會但我們知道啊詳細的計畫的核心其實國科會也是扮演很重要的角色那如果說現在我們都還不知道這個計畫內容是什麼其實本席非常的擔憂為什麼前面有個例子嘛"},{"start":386.345,"end":386.365,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":403.75,"end":430.871,"text":"當然這個主委是即將520就要離開了但我希望在把握最後的這個時間點針對既然已經提出來的大矽谷計畫能不能有更詳盡的一個內容那不管是國科會這邊要負責的或者是主責是國發會只要跟您這裡有相關的能不能會後提供一個至少有一個內容讓我們來了解可以嗎那個針對科學園區這邊以後的一些想法我想我們會來提供好多久可以提供到本席辦公室"},{"start":434.71,"end":436.612,"text":"接下來再請教一下這個金創計畫本席之前好像有關心過這個計畫是一個10年計畫預計要投入3000億的經費是說我們希望能夠在今年在這個中東歐國家設置第一個海外基地"},{"start":456.391,"end":456.551,"text":"法國有"},{"start":478.747,"end":494.657,"text":"韓國也有這個計畫現在有沒有鎖定要先以哪一個國家來作為我們的一個開始當然我會這樣問也是我想不管是本席是我們這個捷克中華民國捷克跟我們這個國會友好聯盟會的會長那過去"},{"start":497.619,"end":501.442,"text":"萬委員提到這個金創的確是臺灣未來10年蠻重要的一個計畫有時候從科技引領到未來深層式人工智慧包括IC design"},{"start":523.439,"end":541.555,"text":"那我想捷克是一個蠻這個蠻蠻這個符合我們的想法的一個國家但是應該是近期之內我們會來確定是在哪一個城市那個跟委員報告那個不是在哪一個國家而已而是他在那個city"},{"start":541.715,"end":542.496,"text":"每個計劃喊出來以後執行落實才是最重要的"},{"start":561.108,"end":577.96,"text":"最後我想諸位也知道本席對於女性科技人才的支持那向來不遺餘力我們看到其實國科會有一個案子叫做鼓勵女性從事科學及技術研究的專案執行計劃那這個成果我們可以看到從110年開始我們看一下這個表列這個執行率是110年執行率103%111年115112年105可以說執行率算相當的好"},{"start":590.089,"end":591.514,"text":"那這個主委認同嗎?"},{"start":593.379,"end":612.813,"text":"應該是要鼓勵,謝謝委員支持女力的增強事實上這個也就是說鼓勵女性她如果因為生育或什麼的計畫停了幾年以後我們給她一個窗口當然,所以這個執行率主任滿意嗎?103%、110%、105%就相當棒嘛,對不對?滿意嗎?還想要再增加到110%、120%?"},{"start":624.435,"end":642.128,"text":"主委所以我們看下一張表格喔那謝謝趙委再給我一分鐘時間好不好我們看一下下一張表格喔但是呢我們執行率這麼高這代表著大家都需要那大家都願意來這個做一個申請喔可是我們看到110年110年112年喔我們整個核定率啊三成不到只有20幾趴呀你看申請的件數啊110年高達517件但你只核定129件"},{"start":651.095,"end":655.117,"text":"來到112年申請件數還是有405件但你只核定了118件所有的核定率在這3年28%非常的低那你看執行率超過到100多趴去了這代表著什麼這代表著你們的預算編的不夠"},{"start":668.005,"end":692.382,"text":"所以如果說這個需求量是很大的你就不應該核定數到這麼低我不相信他們送來的這個計畫會差到你覺得說核定率沒有辦法再繼續給他們那是不是預算太低所以你沒有辦法去做所以這一點本席覺得真的啦我們有很多的錢我們看到養蚊子館的這個那個有很多錢其實是有浪費的但在這一塊我們竟然鼓勵女性來從事科學跟技術研究"},{"start":693.083,"end":716.597,"text":"那是不是我們的預算上面要重新去做考量在執行上面還有核定上面我們要不要新的思維那個謝謝委員這個事實上這畫面如果增加我是贊成的啦我回去再來看看到底是什麼樣的問題那預算我想應該是那核定率為什麼這麼低來我處長來我們都鼓勵他你核定率這麼低20幾%"},{"start":718.66,"end":719.081,"text":"我們盡量來做 那個增加我是贊成"},{"start":735.401,"end":735.461,"text":"謝謝萬美玲"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}