{"total":{"value":121,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-03-18"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"15735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15735","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc3e43fff42b9abd619b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be43443e79ec379f6ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:32:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14521,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 12:32:00","影片長度":"04:02:01","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1955.6747187500002,"end":1956.5353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1957.5140937500003,"end":1959.4378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1959.8259687500001,"end":1964.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1964.4159687500003,"end":1967.8753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1968.51659375,"end":1970.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1971.2503437500002,"end":1976.3634687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1976.7853437500003,"end":1981.9322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1982.30346875,"end":1984.3959687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1984.5309687500003,"end":1986.9272187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1987.1297187500002,"end":1989.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1989.74534375,"end":1992.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1992.8672187500001,"end":1994.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1995.2803437500002,"end":1998.3178437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1998.4190937500002,"end":2008.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2005.5909687500002,"end":2006.4178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2009.0672187500002,"end":2011.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2010.4847187500002,"end":2011.2440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2012.3240937500002,"end":2020.8965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2012.54346875,"end":2012.9484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2021.1665937500002,"end":2024.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2024.6765937500002,"end":2024.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2024.7947187500001,"end":2024.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2024.8115937500002,"end":2024.8790937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2024.8790937500003,"end":2024.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2024.91284375,"end":2024.9634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2024.9634687500002,"end":2025.3178437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2026.6509687500002,"end":2029.3847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2029.7897187500002,"end":2031.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2032.0340937500002,"end":2033.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2034.3122187500003,"end":2037.6365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2038.1934687500002,"end":2040.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2041.8047187500001,"end":2043.0197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2043.2222187500001,"end":2043.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2044.0828437500002,"end":2048.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2048.33534375,"end":2050.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2051.8115937500006,"end":2052.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2052.4697187500005,"end":2054.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2055.1697187500004,"end":2055.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2056.11471875,"end":2060.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2060.9747187499997,"end":2062.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2063.1347187500005,"end":2063.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2065.14284375,"end":2065.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2066.2565937500003,"end":2067.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2069.85096875,"end":2071.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2073.6815937500005,"end":2075.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2077.57971875,"end":2079.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2079.4528437500003,"end":2080.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2081.0222187500003,"end":2084.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2086.0340937500005,"end":2087.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2087.50221875,"end":2087.5528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2087.5528437500006,"end":2087.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2087.80596875,"end":2088.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2088.0253437500005,"end":2089.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2089.2234687500004,"end":2093.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2093.6953437500006,"end":2098.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2094.43784375,"end":2095.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2098.0153437500003,"end":2101.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2101.79534375,"end":2103.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2105.57534375,"end":2113.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2114.92409375,"end":2117.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2121.62346875,"end":2124.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2125.3359687500006,"end":2131.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2131.91721875,"end":2135.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2135.6297187500004,"end":2139.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2140.2872187500006,"end":2142.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2142.8522187500002,"end":2145.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2145.8728437500004,"end":2149.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2149.63596875,"end":2152.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2159.35596875,"end":2159.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2159.6934687500006,"end":2160.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2161.0772187500006,"end":2170.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2170.3584687500006,"end":2187.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2188.39784375,"end":2210.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2210.08221875,"end":2216.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2216.19096875,"end":2218.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2218.6209687500004,"end":2224.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2225.0165937500005,"end":2231.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2231.59784375,"end":2241.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2242.3134687500005,"end":2242.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2243.07284375,"end":2250.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2250.24471875,"end":2257.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2257.53471875,"end":2259.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2260.2684687500005,"end":2286.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2286.32346875,"end":2301.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2302.47284375,"end":2307.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2307.61971875,"end":2313.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2314.30221875,"end":2342.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2344.8290937500005,"end":2349.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2358.88596875,"end":2361.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2362.46346875,"end":2384.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2385.3797187500004,"end":2450.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2450.61846875,"end":2452.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2452.98096875,"end":2455.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2455.98471875,"end":2470.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2472.1003437500003,"end":2496.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2496.65346875,"end":2500.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2501.24346875,"end":2501.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2502.2390937500004,"end":2509.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2509.63034375,"end":2513.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2514.1865937500006,"end":2546.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2547.1434687500005,"end":2553.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2553.99471875,"end":2560.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2561.3522187500002,"end":2590.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2590.98471875,"end":2592.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2593.51596875,"end":2603.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2604.41721875,"end":2619.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2620.7353437500005,"end":2621.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2623.21596875,"end":2627.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2628.04221875,"end":2656.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2656.37534375,"end":2659.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2659.80096875,"end":2702.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2703.1190937500005,"end":2710.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2711.7928437500004,"end":2749.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2751.31409375,"end":2779.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2780.00159375,"end":2785.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2785.60409375,"end":2786.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2791.3415937500004,"end":2829.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2830.32284375,"end":2885.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2886.3815937500003,"end":2888.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2888.28846875,"end":2920.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2921.5322187500005,"end":2943.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2944.16159375,"end":2945.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2946.13596875,"end":2952.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2953.49346875,"end":2960.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2960.2265937500006,"end":2974.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2983.1259687500005,"end":2984.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2994.6853437500004,"end":3000.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3006.12659375,"end":3008.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3020.50409375,"end":3021.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3022.0565937500005,"end":3025.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3025.93784375,"end":3033.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3033.6159687500003,"end":3035.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3035.2528437500005,"end":3035.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3035.94471875,"end":3037.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3037.86846875,"end":3038.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3039.06659375,"end":3039.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3039.7584687500002,"end":3042.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3042.81284375,"end":3044.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3045.05721875,"end":3047.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3047.57159375,"end":3048.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3050.3728437500004,"end":3051.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3052.0603437500004,"end":3052.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3053.3259687500004,"end":3054.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3055.6715937500003,"end":3056.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3056.8190937500003,"end":3058.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3058.8272187500006,"end":3060.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3061.6453437500004,"end":3062.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3063.6534687500007,"end":3064.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3065.52659375,"end":3067.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3068.3447187500005,"end":3070.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3070.6903437500005,"end":3070.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3070.70721875,"end":3070.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3070.7578437500006,"end":3070.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3070.89284375,"end":3071.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3071.19659375,"end":3071.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3072.29346875,"end":3072.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3073.6434687500005,"end":3076.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3077.3728437500004,"end":3078.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3078.9928437500002,"end":3084.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3085.2028437500003,"end":3086.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3086.45159375,"end":3088.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3088.30784375,"end":3089.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3088.56096875,"end":3088.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3089.69159375,"end":3089.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3089.70846875,"end":3089.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3089.7253437500003,"end":3089.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3089.9784687500005,"end":3090.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3090.0459687500006,"end":3090.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3090.3328437500004,"end":3090.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3090.67034375,"end":3093.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3091.15971875,"end":3092.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3093.85971875,"end":3094.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3095.2940937500007,"end":3096.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3097.2009687500004,"end":3100.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3100.7784687500007,"end":3104.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3104.3222187500005,"end":3117.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3119.4422187500004,"end":3120.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3121.6865937500006,"end":3122.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3123.76221875,"end":3126.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3126.9347187500007,"end":3127.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3128.3015937500004,"end":3129.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3130.51221875,"end":3131.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3131.33909375,"end":3131.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3132.9422187500004,"end":3134.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3135.45659375,"end":3135.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3136.09784375,"end":3136.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3137.2115937500002,"end":3137.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3138.59534375,"end":3140.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3141.4472187500005,"end":3143.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3144.24846875,"end":3144.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3145.5478437500005,"end":3146.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3147.4040937500004,"end":3149.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3149.7665937500005,"end":3150.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3151.28534375,"end":3152.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3152.7197187500005,"end":3154.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3154.7109687500006,"end":3159.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3160.0097187500005,"end":3160.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3161.2753437500005,"end":3162.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3162.76034375,"end":3164.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3165.88221875,"end":3168.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3168.8184687500006,"end":3170.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3170.87721875,"end":3173.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3174.1172187500006,"end":3174.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3175.33221875,"end":3176.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3176.96909375,"end":3177.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3178.25159375,"end":3179.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3179.3990937500002,"end":3180.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3181.54221875,"end":3182.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3184.0059687500006,"end":3184.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3185.1872187500003,"end":3186.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3187.5665937500007,"end":3193.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3194.02971875,"end":3195.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3196.2909687500005,"end":3198.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3199.32846875,"end":3199.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3200.0372187500006,"end":3200.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3200.0709687500002,"end":3202.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3203.3278437500003,"end":3214.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3214.1447187500007,"end":3216.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3217.18221875,"end":3218.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3220.43909375,"end":3221.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3222.8690937500005,"end":3223.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3224.3203437500006,"end":3226.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3227.7459687500004,"end":3229.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3229.3828437500006,"end":3231.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3233.50034375,"end":3234.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3235.2384687500007,"end":3237.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3237.66846875,"end":3238.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3239.9803437500004,"end":3241.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3243.20346875,"end":3245.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3245.6503437500005,"end":3246.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3246.4265937500004,"end":3247.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3248.4347187500007,"end":3249.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3249.88596875,"end":3250.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3251.4890937500004,"end":3254.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3254.89784375,"end":3256.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3256.9059687500003,"end":3258.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3261.5634687500005,"end":3262.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3263.70659375,"end":3270.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3270.1865937500006,"end":3271.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3271.9247187500005,"end":3274.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3275.8903437500003,"end":3276.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3277.3584687500006,"end":3281.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3281.8809687500006,"end":3286.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3281.96534375,"end":3282.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3286.8759687500005,"end":3288.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3289.06971875,"end":3290.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3290.68971875,"end":3292.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3293.8790937500007,"end":3294.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3294.9928437500002,"end":3299.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3299.54909375,"end":3299.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3299.5997187500006,"end":3299.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3299.61659375,"end":3299.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3299.6334687500002,"end":3299.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3299.6503437500005,"end":3299.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3299.68409375,"end":3299.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3299.97096875,"end":3301.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3302.7384687500007,"end":3303.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3304.4597187500003,"end":3305.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3306.31596875,"end":3307.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3308.17221875,"end":3309.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3309.97784375,"end":3310.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3310.0284687500007,"end":3310.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3310.9734687500004,"end":3311.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3311.8340937500006,"end":3312.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3312.6778437500006,"end":3320.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3320.52471875,"end":3320.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3320.54159375,"end":3320.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3320.76096875,"end":3320.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3320.84534375,"end":3320.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3320.8790937500007,"end":3320.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3322.27971875,"end":3323.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3323.84909375,"end":3325.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3327.15659375,"end":3327.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3328.0847187500003,"end":3329.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3330.24471875,"end":3331.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3332.9615937500002,"end":3333.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3334.1934687500006,"end":3336.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3337.3322187500007,"end":3339.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3339.7115937500002,"end":3340.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3341.07846875,"end":3342.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3343.3565937500007,"end":3344.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3345.60096875,"end":3347.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3348.3347187500003,"end":3350.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3351.8278437500003,"end":3361.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3359.6915937500007,"end":3361.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3361.0753437500007,"end":3361.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3361.32846875,"end":3361.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3361.4972187500007,"end":3361.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3361.69971875,"end":3364.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3361.86846875,"end":3362.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3364.58534375,"end":3370.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3370.5759687500004,"end":3372.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3372.06096875,"end":3373.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3373.7315937500007,"end":3373.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3373.74846875,"end":3375.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.3640937500004,"end":3380.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3380.43096875,"end":3385.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3384.2784687500007,"end":3388.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3388.68284375,"end":3389.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3389.52659375,"end":3389.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3390.57284375,"end":3390.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3390.6065937500007,"end":3391.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3392.66534375,"end":3394.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3395.0615937500006,"end":3402.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3402.5372187500006,"end":3406.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3402.85784375,"end":3406.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3406.16534375,"end":3409.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3407.2284687500005,"end":3407.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3409.5234687500006,"end":3410.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3410.94096875,"end":3413.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3411.53159375,"end":3413.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3415.2947187500004,"end":3416.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3416.96534375,"end":3422.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3422.2978437500005,"end":3424.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3424.0359687500004,"end":3429.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3430.6847187500007,"end":3433.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3433.6378437500007,"end":3434.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3435.39284375,"end":3436.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3437.40096875,"end":3439.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3439.4597187500003,"end":3441.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3441.5690937500003,"end":3443.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3444.1003437500003,"end":3445.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3448.58909375,"end":3450.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3451.6940937500003,"end":3453.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3453.7528437500005,"end":3454.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3454.93409375,"end":3457.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3458.6803437500002,"end":3459.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3460.6715937500003,"end":3462.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3462.94971875,"end":3465.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3468.4509687500004,"end":3469.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3471.20159375,"end":3472.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3473.5303437500006,"end":3474.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3474.74534375,"end":3476.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3476.6522187500004,"end":3477.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3478.12034375,"end":3479.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3480.3309687500005,"end":3484.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3484.70159375,"end":3487.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3488.3465937500005,"end":3489.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3489.15659375,"end":3489.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3491.09721875,"end":3491.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3492.97034375,"end":3495.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3496.3790937500007,"end":3499.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3499.3659687500003,"end":3500.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3500.96909375,"end":3502.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3503.21346875,"end":3507.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3507.78659375,"end":3508.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3508.7147187500004,"end":3510.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3511.2459687500004,"end":3516.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3516.40971875,"end":3517.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3518.3503437500003,"end":3519.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3519.48096875,"end":3521.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3521.7928437500004,"end":3523.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3523.6490937500002,"end":3532.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3525.80909375,"end":3525.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3526.4840937500003,"end":3527.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3532.79534375,"end":3534.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3534.85409375,"end":3537.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3538.6172187500006,"end":3540.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3539.59596875,"end":3545.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3546.0759687500004,"end":3558.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3559.1709687500006,"end":3561.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3562.32659375,"end":3567.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3566.7647187500006,"end":3568.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3568.06409375,"end":3568.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3568.1990937500004,"end":3568.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3568.28346875,"end":3568.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3568.5703437500006,"end":3574.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3575.15159375,"end":3585.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3585.8503437500003,"end":3589.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3589.02284375,"end":3600.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3600.8690937500005,"end":3600.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3601.2234687500004,"end":3604.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3605.00346875,"end":3608.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3609.6778437500006,"end":3615.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3615.41534375,"end":3616.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3616.81596875,"end":3619.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3619.3640937500004,"end":3619.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3620.17409375,"end":3635.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3635.66534375,"end":3635.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3636.1378437500007,"end":3636.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3636.15471875,"end":3641.0822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3641.3522187500002,"end":3642.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3642.78659375,"end":3643.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3644.10284375,"end":3645.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3645.50346875,"end":3650.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3650.68409375,"end":3655.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3656.15159375,"end":3657.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3658.09221875,"end":3663.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3663.62721875,"end":3670.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3670.14096875,"end":3670.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3670.2422187500006,"end":3679.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3680.19846875,"end":3681.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3681.4978437500004,"end":3682.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3684.6872187500003,"end":3690.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3691.42034375,"end":3692.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3692.80409375,"end":3693.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3693.71534375,"end":3694.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3694.0359687500004,"end":3694.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3695.75721875,"end":3696.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3699.1153437500006,"end":3700.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3700.6172187500006,"end":3702.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3703.04721875,"end":3704.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3706.06784375,"end":3707.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3708.12659375,"end":3709.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3710.47221875,"end":3713.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3714.2184687500003,"end":3715.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3716.14221875,"end":3716.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3717.81284375,"end":3718.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3722.70659375,"end":3723.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3726.0984687500004,"end":3726.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3728.6465937500006,"end":3729.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3733.1522187500004,"end":3735.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3737.03346875,"end":3738.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3739.4803437500004,"end":3741.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3755.7478437500004,"end":3755.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3757.8234687500008,"end":3761.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3761.75534375,"end":3763.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3763.5778437500003,"end":3764.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3764.33721875,"end":3770.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3765.24846875,"end":3765.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3774.6815937500005,"end":3774.6984687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3774.6984687500008,"end":3777.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3778.27596875,"end":3779.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3780.1828437500008,"end":3783.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3783.74346875,"end":3786.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3787.1690937500007,"end":3789.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3789.3797187500004,"end":3790.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3791.1515937500008,"end":3796.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3796.8553437500004,"end":3797.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3797.0240937500002,"end":3798.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3797.1084687500006,"end":3799.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3799.30221875,"end":3800.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3800.4328437500008,"end":3807.6047187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3807.7059687500005,"end":3809.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3810.57471875,"end":3810.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3811.5028437500005,"end":3814.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3815.09721875,"end":3815.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3816.3290937500005,"end":3816.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3816.97034375,"end":3816.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3817.7634687500004,"end":3821.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3820.56471875,"end":3825.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3821.42534375,"end":3821.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3826.23471875,"end":3827.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3828.3103437500004,"end":3829.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3829.9640937500008,"end":3834.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3835.3134687500005,"end":3839.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3839.80221875,"end":3841.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3840.8653437500006,"end":3843.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3841.55721875,"end":3842.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3842.56971875,"end":3842.6203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3842.6203437500008,"end":3842.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3842.6709687500006,"end":3842.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3842.70471875,"end":3844.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3844.0378437500003,"end":3849.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3849.9440937500003,"end":3852.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3852.5428437500004,"end":3855.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3855.78284375,"end":3858.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3858.41534375,"end":3867.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3866.4647187500004,"end":3867.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3868.0340937500005,"end":3873.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3870.4978437500004,"end":3870.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3873.9572187500007,"end":3875.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3875.71221875,"end":3879.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3880.0828437500004,"end":3883.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3884.16659375,"end":3887.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3887.5753437500007,"end":3904.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3905.5978437500007,"end":3917.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3913.3603437500005,"end":3913.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3915.0309687500003,"end":3915.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3918.5578437500008,"end":3919.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3919.8572187500004,"end":3927.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3921.9328437500008,"end":3930.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3930.5897187500004,"end":3932.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3933.0197187500007,"end":3936.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3936.17534375,"end":3936.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3937.0528437500006,"end":3942.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3942.68909375,"end":3942.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3942.97596875,"end":3944.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3944.42721875,"end":3954.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3944.4440937500003,"end":3946.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3954.60284375,"end":3956.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3956.42534375,"end":3968.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3956.4928437500002,"end":3956.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3967.51221875,"end":3967.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3967.8834687500002,"end":3968.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3968.0184687500005,"end":3968.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3969.4528437500003,"end":3977.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3976.54034375,"end":3989.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3977.8903437500003,"end":3978.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3982.5478437500005,"end":3986.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3987.88034375,"end":3992.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3992.0822187500007,"end":3994.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3995.17034375,"end":3995.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3996.62159375,"end":3997.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3997.8028437500006,"end":4005.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4006.08846875,"end":4026.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4026.8447187500005,"end":4031.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4029.34221875,"end":4041.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4041.7284687500005,"end":4041.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4041.8972187500003,"end":4044.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4043.5509687500007,"end":4044.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4044.7322187500004,"end":4044.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4044.8503437500003,"end":4045.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4044.88409375,"end":4049.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4047.2634687500004,"end":4058.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4058.50221875,"end":4064.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4065.99471875,"end":4066.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4066.93971875,"end":4074.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4074.60096875,"end":4078.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4079.2078437500004,"end":4082.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4082.5153437500003,"end":4084.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4085.4853437500005,"end":4092.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4094.0915937500004,"end":4100.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4101.19596875,"end":4103.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4104.14909375,"end":4114.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4115.3709687499995,"end":4117.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4118.054093750001,"end":4125.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4121.7665937500005,"end":4121.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4126.204718749999,"end":4128.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4128.76971875,"end":4132.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4132.920968750001,"end":4133.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4134.20346875,"end":4139.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4139.50221875,"end":4140.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4140.53159375,"end":4141.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4141.84784375,"end":4144.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4144.51409375,"end":4148.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4148.7665937500005,"end":4162.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4163.12721875,"end":4170.737843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4171.22721875,"end":4172.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4172.7459687499995,"end":4174.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4174.23096875,"end":4176.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4176.795968750001,"end":4180.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4180.71096875,"end":4181.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4181.77409375,"end":4182.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4182.38159375,"end":4183.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4185.233468750001,"end":4185.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4187.02221875,"end":4188.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4188.54096875,"end":4190.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4190.802218750001,"end":4191.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4191.94971875,"end":4193.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4193.92409375,"end":4199.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4199.897843750001,"end":4206.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4207.28909375,"end":4210.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4211.575343750001,"end":4212.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4213.19534375,"end":4214.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4213.262843750001,"end":4214.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4214.07284375,"end":4216.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4215.70971875,"end":4216.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4216.89096875,"end":4217.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4216.94159375,"end":4223.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4223.69159375,"end":4229.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4230.10409375,"end":4236.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4237.495343750001,"end":4239.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4240.27971875,"end":4241.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4242.06846875,"end":4246.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4246.94534375,"end":4248.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4249.32471875,"end":4250.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4251.467843750001,"end":4257.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4257.44159375,"end":4258.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4259.196593750001,"end":4259.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4259.247218750001,"end":4259.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4259.26409375,"end":4260.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4259.2978437500005,"end":4259.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4261.66034375,"end":4262.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4261.7615937499995,"end":4267.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4266.030968749999,"end":4267.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4267.718468749999,"end":4268.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4268.342843750001,"end":4270.907843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4270.671593749999,"end":4272.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4272.00471875,"end":4275.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4274.18159375,"end":4275.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4275.76784375,"end":4275.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4275.80159375,"end":4276.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4276.442843750001,"end":4277.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4276.763468749999,"end":4278.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4279.17659375,"end":4286.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4286.483468750001,"end":4288.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4291.343468749999,"end":4295.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4295.241593750001,"end":4296.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4295.528468750001,"end":4295.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4296.8447187500005,"end":4300.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4300.42221875,"end":4301.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4301.012843750001,"end":4301.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4301.18159375,"end":4302.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4303.257218750001,"end":4306.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4306.868468750001,"end":4309.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4308.1678437499995,"end":4309.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4310.20971875,"end":4312.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4311.23909375,"end":4312.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4312.200968749999,"end":4312.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4312.79159375,"end":4313.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4313.854718750001,"end":4314.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4314.934718750001,"end":4315.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4315.37346875,"end":4318.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4318.14096875,"end":4319.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4319.288468750001,"end":4323.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4319.372843749999,"end":4321.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4331.100968750001,"end":4334.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4335.43784375,"end":4336.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4337.3447187500005,"end":4339.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4340.12909375,"end":4341.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4342.069718750001,"end":4343.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4344.314093749999,"end":4351.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4351.84034375,"end":4351.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4351.89096875,"end":4354.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4353.89909375,"end":4357.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4355.890343749999,"end":4363.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4364.091593749999,"end":4374.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4374.77346875,"end":4379.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4379.9540937500005,"end":4385.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4386.029093749999,"end":4388.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4388.661593750001,"end":4389.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4390.163468750001,"end":4394.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4395.782843749999,"end":4397.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4397.807843750001,"end":4400.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4402.077218750001,"end":4404.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4405.36784375,"end":4409.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4410.21096875,"end":4411.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4412.708468750001,"end":4414.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4414.88534375,"end":4416.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4417.534718749999,"end":4420.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4421.58471875,"end":4422.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4423.356593750001,"end":4424.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4424.706593749999,"end":4426.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4426.444718750001,"end":4427.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4429.7353437500005,"end":4432.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4432.31721875,"end":4454.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4441.446593750001,"end":4441.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4441.46346875,"end":4443.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4446.795968750001,"end":4446.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4446.81284375,"end":4448.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4448.095343749999,"end":4448.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4448.567843750001,"end":4448.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4449.040343750001,"end":4449.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4451.95971875,"end":4453.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4454.35596875,"end":4458.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4459.57034375,"end":4466.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4463.198468750001,"end":4464.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4466.894093749999,"end":4469.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4469.104718750001,"end":4471.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4472.86784375,"end":4472.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4472.901593750001,"end":4472.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4472.91846875,"end":4472.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4472.96909375,"end":4473.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4474.2684687500005,"end":4486.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4479.786593750001,"end":4479.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4482.62159375,"end":4483.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4484.5115937499995,"end":4491.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4491.649718750001,"end":4502.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4502.905343750001,"end":4505.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4506.19596875,"end":4518.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4520.87721875,"end":4529.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4530.360968749999,"end":4535.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4535.372843749999,"end":4536.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4537.36409375,"end":4539.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4539.878468749999,"end":4542.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4548.9403437500005,"end":4549.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4556.010968750001,"end":4559.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4559.4872187500005,"end":4561.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4564.870343750001,"end":4566.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4567.114718750001,"end":4567.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4567.13159375,"end":4567.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4568.41409375,"end":4572.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4573.18971875,"end":4575.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4576.4803437499995,"end":4578.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4578.640343749999,"end":4579.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4580.3447187500005,"end":4582.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4582.89284375,"end":4583.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4584.512843750001,"end":4586.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4587.415343750001,"end":4588.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4588.815968749999,"end":4590.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4591.499093750001,"end":4594.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4595.1103437500005,"end":4596.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4596.91596875,"end":4600.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4600.64534375,"end":4603.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4604.35784375,"end":4610.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4610.77034375,"end":4614.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4614.38159375,"end":4614.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4615.022843750001,"end":4615.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4615.394093749999,"end":4615.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4616.153468750001,"end":4617.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4618.2459687499995,"end":4618.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4619.106593750001,"end":4621.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4621.958468750001,"end":4622.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4625.21534375,"end":4627.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4627.61159375,"end":4627.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4627.98284375,"end":4630.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4631.7459687499995,"end":4641.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4640.77409375,"end":4642.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4642.022843750001,"end":4642.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4642.09034375,"end":4642.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4642.107218749999,"end":4642.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4642.208468750001,"end":4642.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4642.88346875,"end":4643.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4643.50784375,"end":4643.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4643.82846875,"end":4643.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4645.33034375,"end":4645.347218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4645.347218749999,"end":4645.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4645.78596875,"end":4645.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4646.055968750001,"end":4647.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4647.794093750001,"end":4648.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4652.654093749999,"end":4653.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4654.13909375,"end":4654.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4654.8309687500005,"end":4655.472218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4656.0965937500005,"end":4658.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4658.897843750001,"end":4660.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4661.02409375,"end":4665.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4666.120343750001,"end":4671.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4673.07284375,"end":4684.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4682.759093750001,"end":4682.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4684.210343750001,"end":4684.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4684.7840937500005,"end":4702.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4703.65034375,"end":4704.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4704.983468750001,"end":4706.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4708.5272187499995,"end":4712.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4713.96096875,"end":4714.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4716.6103437500005,"end":4717.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4717.589093750001,"end":4718.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4717.639718750001,"end":4719.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4718.9559687500005,"end":4720.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4720.84596875,"end":4723.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4724.339093750001,"end":4725.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4726.634093750001,"end":4729.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4730.7684687500005,"end":4731.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4733.046593749999,"end":4733.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4733.40096875,"end":4734.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4735.98284375,"end":4740.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4740.741593750001,"end":4741.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4743.23909375,"end":4744.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4746.44534375,"end":4747.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4748.014718750001,"end":4748.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4749.80346875,"end":4750.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4750.98471875,"end":4751.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4752.58784375,"end":4753.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4753.870343750001,"end":4753.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4754.44409375,"end":4754.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4754.477843750001,"end":4755.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4757.17784375,"end":4760.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4760.434718750001,"end":4763.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4764.130343750001,"end":4764.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4765.24409375,"end":4767.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4768.0115937499995,"end":4768.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4769.54721875,"end":4770.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4772.63534375,"end":4772.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4772.6522187499995,"end":4776.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4776.600968750001,"end":4779.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4779.67221875,"end":4781.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4782.96284375,"end":4784.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4785.05534375,"end":4785.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4786.84409375,"end":4788.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4789.74659375,"end":4791.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4792.59846875,"end":4793.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4793.897843750001,"end":4795.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4795.534718750001,"end":4796.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4797.374093750001,"end":4800.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4802.571593750001,"end":4803.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4804.93409375,"end":4817.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4805.54159375,"end":4806.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4817.87721875,"end":4818.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4818.923468749999,"end":4818.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4820.7459687499995,"end":4820.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4820.762843750001,"end":4822.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4823.02409375,"end":4826.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4826.02784375,"end":4826.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4827.76596875,"end":4840.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4839.71346875,"end":4840.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4840.489718750001,"end":4840.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4840.540343750001,"end":4840.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4840.6415937500005,"end":4841.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4840.69221875,"end":4841.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4842.177218750001,"end":4847.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4847.93159375,"end":4848.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4849.99034375,"end":4851.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4851.57659375,"end":4852.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4852.960343750001,"end":4857.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4858.14096875,"end":4859.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4860.4022187499995,"end":4862.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4863.692843750001,"end":4864.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4864.637843750001,"end":4867.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4869.362843750001,"end":4872.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4873.17659375,"end":4874.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4874.88096875,"end":4877.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4877.81721875,"end":4878.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4878.28971875,"end":4878.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4879.960343750001,"end":4887.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4884.499718749999,"end":4885.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4886.187218749999,"end":4886.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4888.00971875,"end":4888.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4888.077218750001,"end":4892.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4892.802218750001,"end":4893.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4893.7978437500005,"end":4894.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4895.58659375,"end":4896.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4898.77596875,"end":4901.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4901.49284375,"end":4901.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4902.404093749999,"end":4902.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4902.43784375,"end":4904.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4906.2684687500005,"end":4911.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4909.32284375,"end":4913.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4914.2840937500005,"end":4917.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4918.300343750001,"end":4919.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4921.42221875,"end":4924.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4924.32471875,"end":4925.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4925.624093750001,"end":4926.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4927.159718750001,"end":4927.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4928.712218750001,"end":4930.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4931.091593749999,"end":4934.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4934.41596875,"end":4935.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4936.170968750001,"end":4937.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4937.45346875,"end":4938.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4938.4490937499995,"end":4938.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4939.66409375,"end":4940.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4940.03534375,"end":4940.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4942.2459687499995,"end":4942.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4944.085343750001,"end":4952.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4952.03346875,"end":4956.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4956.91034375,"end":4958.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4960.673468749999,"end":4962.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4962.42846875,"end":4964.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4966.7147187499995,"end":4972.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4972.857218749999,"end":4974.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4974.983468750001,"end":4976.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4977.599093750001,"end":4978.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4978.628468750001,"end":4979.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4980.43409375,"end":4982.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4983.0497187500005,"end":4984.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4985.83409375,"end":4986.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4987.15034375,"end":4987.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4988.466593749999,"end":4989.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4990.491593750001,"end":4992.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4992.7528437500005,"end":4993.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4994.389718750001,"end":4995.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4996.88721875,"end":5000.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5001.86534375,"end":5007.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5007.14721875,"end":5011.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5012.192843750001,"end":5013.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5013.981593750001,"end":5014.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5015.517218749999,"end":5016.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5017.170968750001,"end":5021.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5020.88346875,"end":5021.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5021.237843750001,"end":5022.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5024.35971875,"end":5025.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5026.215968750001,"end":5028.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5026.65471875,"end":5026.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5026.671593749999,"end":5029.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5031.1434687500005,"end":5031.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5031.177218750001,"end":5031.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5031.3290937500005,"end":5031.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5031.548468749999,"end":5031.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5031.76784375,"end":5032.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5033.53971875,"end":5044.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5044.913468750001,"end":5045.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5048.06909375,"end":5049.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5050.026593750001,"end":5050.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5050.75221875,"end":5052.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5052.794093750001,"end":5057.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5057.991593750001,"end":5058.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5058.43034375,"end":5059.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5060.53971875,"end":5061.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5062.22721875,"end":5065.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5065.93971875,"end":5066.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5066.96909375,"end":5070.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5073.465968750001,"end":5074.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5074.967843750001,"end":5075.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5075.03534375,"end":5075.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5076.01409375,"end":5079.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5079.642218749999,"end":5079.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5079.89534375,"end":5082.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5082.42659375,"end":5084.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5085.16034375,"end":5086.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5086.79721875,"end":5087.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5087.573468750001,"end":5088.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5088.737843750001,"end":5090.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5091.2353437500005,"end":5091.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5093.665343750001,"end":5095.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5096.989718750001,"end":5100.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5101.495343750001,"end":5102.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5103.33471875,"end":5105.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5105.477843750001,"end":5107.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5107.89096875,"end":5108.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5109.3759687500005,"end":5113.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5114.522843750001,"end":5119.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5117.93159375,"end":5120.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5121.1884687500005,"end":5122.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5122.36971875,"end":5126.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5127.0947187500005,"end":5129.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5129.845343749999,"end":5130.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.030968749999,"end":5130.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5130.368468750001,"end":5130.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.38534375,"end":5130.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5130.48659375,"end":5130.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.503468750001,"end":5130.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5130.57096875,"end":5130.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.638468749999,"end":5130.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5131.2459687499995,"end":5148.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5137.067843750001,"end":5137.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5138.26596875,"end":5140.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5142.552218750001,"end":5144.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5147.68221875,"end":5150.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5152.00221875,"end":5152.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5153.40284375,"end":5154.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5155.22534375,"end":5155.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5155.98471875,"end":5156.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5157.317843750001,"end":5159.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5160.99659375,"end":5169.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5161.51971875,"end":5162.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5165.856593750001,"end":5166.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5169.974093750001,"end":5170.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5171.796593749999,"end":5176.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5177.061593750001,"end":5178.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5178.85034375,"end":5179.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5181.314093749999,"end":5182.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5182.815968750001,"end":5182.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5183.91284375,"end":5185.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5186.292218750001,"end":5195.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5195.50596875,"end":5195.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5195.97846875,"end":5198.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5198.96534375,"end":5198.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5199.20159375,"end":5201.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5202.0028437500005,"end":5204.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5204.905343750001,"end":5205.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5205.597218750001,"end":5207.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5207.55471875,"end":5209.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5210.0184687500005,"end":5210.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5211.06471875,"end":5212.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5213.03909375,"end":5217.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5219.147843750001,"end":5219.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5219.890343749999,"end":5221.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5222.30346875,"end":5228.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5228.327843749999,"end":5230.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5228.850968750001,"end":5231.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5231.82096875,"end":5232.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5234.40284375,"end":5235.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5235.972218750001,"end":5237.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5237.64284375,"end":5237.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5237.92971875,"end":5239.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5239.22909375,"end":5239.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5239.60034375,"end":5239.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5239.634093750001,"end":5239.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5239.684718750001,"end":5244.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5239.7353437500005,"end":5239.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5239.80284375,"end":5239.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5239.9715937500005,"end":5240.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5240.02221875,"end":5240.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5241.52409375,"end":5241.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5244.89909375,"end":5249.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5250.56909375,"end":5255.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5255.935343749999,"end":5255.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5255.96909375,"end":5256.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5256.20534375,"end":5256.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5256.981593750001,"end":5257.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5257.437218749999,"end":5257.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5257.57221875,"end":5258.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5258.97284375,"end":5259.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5259.02346875,"end":5259.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5259.05721875,"end":5259.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5259.10784375,"end":5259.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5259.968468749999,"end":5259.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5259.9853437500005,"end":5260.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5260.019093750001,"end":5260.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5260.03596875,"end":5260.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5260.23846875,"end":5260.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5260.255343750001,"end":5260.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5260.964093750001,"end":5261.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5260.98096875,"end":5261.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5261.87534375,"end":5264.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5265.30096875,"end":5266.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5266.93784375,"end":5268.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5268.94596875,"end":5270.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5270.937218749999,"end":5271.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5271.34221875,"end":5271.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5271.359093749999,"end":5271.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5271.47721875,"end":5273.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5274.16034375,"end":5275.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5275.24034375,"end":5276.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5276.69159375,"end":5277.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5277.467843750001,"end":5277.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5278.64909375,"end":5278.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5278.66596875,"end":5279.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5279.83034375,"end":5280.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5281.65284375,"end":5283.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5283.930968750001,"end":5284.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5283.99846875,"end":5284.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5284.167218750001,"end":5285.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5285.77034375,"end":5291.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5287.28909375,"end":5289.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.25034375,"end":5297.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5295.692843750001,"end":5297.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5297.616593750001,"end":5302.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5297.63346875,"end":5299.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5303.16846875,"end":5304.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5305.0584687499995,"end":5307.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5306.897843750001,"end":5310.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5308.70346875,"end":5312.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5312.1122187500005,"end":5315.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5315.807843750001,"end":5319.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5320.296593749999,"end":5321.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5321.528468750001,"end":5322.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5323.84034375,"end":5324.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5325.52784375,"end":5328.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5328.61596875,"end":5330.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5341.60971875,"end":5342.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5342.95971875,"end":5343.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5343.077843749999,"end":5347.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5347.93784375,"end":5349.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5350.064093749999,"end":5353.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5353.28721875,"end":5354.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5355.00846875,"end":5356.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5355.86909375,"end":5357.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5357.55659375,"end":5358.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5361.06659375,"end":5363.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5365.6903437500005,"end":5368.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5369.841593749999,"end":5373.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5374.33034375,"end":5375.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5376.169718749999,"end":5382.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5382.7509687500005,"end":5385.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5386.075343750001,"end":5393.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5393.669093750001,"end":5394.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5395.204718749999,"end":5396.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5396.993468750001,"end":5398.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5399.17034375,"end":5400.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5400.4022187499995,"end":5403.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5403.979718750001,"end":5408.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5408.58659375,"end":5409.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5409.90284375,"end":5410.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5412.01221875,"end":5425.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5426.35596875,"end":5427.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5428.499093750001,"end":5429.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5429.86596875,"end":5429.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5429.96721875,"end":5435.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5435.97471875,"end":5436.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5437.206593750001,"end":5441.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5441.91471875,"end":5441.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5442.927218750001,"end":5442.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5442.94409375,"end":5447.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5447.989718750001,"end":5448.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5448.39471875,"end":5448.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5448.968468749999,"end":5456.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5456.03909375,"end":5457.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5457.67596875,"end":5458.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5458.09784375,"end":5458.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5458.215968750001,"end":5463.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5464.392218749999,"end":5468.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5469.555968750001,"end":5470.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5470.821593750001,"end":5487.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5488.5740937499995,"end":5503.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5503.592843750001,"end":5504.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5504.706593750001,"end":5506.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5506.42784375,"end":5507.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5508.14909375,"end":5509.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5510.25846875,"end":5521.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5522.07096875,"end":5534.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5535.33471875,"end":5536.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5537.07284375,"end":5538.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5538.3553437499995,"end":5541.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5541.409718750001,"end":5541.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5541.67971875,"end":5542.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5543.282843749999,"end":5545.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5545.61159375,"end":5545.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5546.7928437499995,"end":5547.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5548.210343750001,"end":5569.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5570.012843750001,"end":5572.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5573.32034375,"end":5575.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5576.239718750001,"end":5584.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5584.997843749999,"end":5596.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5597.097218750001,"end":5605.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5606.54721875,"end":5615.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5615.524718750001,"end":5621.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5622.57846875,"end":5623.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5624.384093750001,"end":5625.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5625.71721875,"end":5634.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5634.67784375,"end":5635.251593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5635.79159375,"end":5639.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5639.993468750001,"end":5640.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5640.7528437500005,"end":5641.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5641.967843750001,"end":5655.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5653.9490937499995,"end":5660.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5656.80096875,"end":5659.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5661.15471875,"end":5662.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5663.989718750001,"end":5665.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5667.229718750001,"end":5668.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5668.5965937500005,"end":5673.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5673.57471875,"end":5674.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5674.958468750001,"end":5679.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5680.88159375,"end":5693.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5693.892218749999,"end":5709.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5710.294718749999,"end":5715.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5716.302218750001,"end":5716.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5716.33596875,"end":5718.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5718.29346875,"end":5721.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5721.3309687500005,"end":5726.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5727.25409375,"end":5729.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5729.97096875,"end":5757.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5758.675343750001,"end":5762.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5762.944718750001,"end":5762.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5762.96159375,"end":5762.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5762.97846875,"end":5762.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5762.995343750001,"end":5763.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5763.029093749999,"end":5765.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5766.28596875,"end":5777.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5777.760968750001,"end":5778.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5778.77346875,"end":5780.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5781.929093750001,"end":5782.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5783.194718750001,"end":5784.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5785.79346875,"end":5787.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5788.00409375,"end":5806.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5807.22471875,"end":5811.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5812.18596875,"end":5813.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5813.78909375,"end":5825.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5825.888468749999,"end":5831.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5831.54159375,"end":5848.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5848.65284375,"end":5850.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5850.76221875,"end":5859.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5860.212218750001,"end":5862.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5863.536593750001,"end":5864.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5865.139718750001,"end":5867.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5867.468468749999,"end":5868.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5869.577843749999,"end":5873.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5874.0497187500005,"end":5875.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5875.83846875,"end":5876.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5876.985968750001,"end":5878.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5878.99409375,"end":5879.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5880.00659375,"end":5880.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5880.90096875,"end":5881.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5882.36909375,"end":5882.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5882.87534375,"end":5891.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5892.76409375,"end":5893.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5893.962218750001,"end":5893.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5894.333468750001,"end":5894.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5894.36721875,"end":5900.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5900.999093750001,"end":5911.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5911.84971875,"end":5917.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5917.9247187500005,"end":5924.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5924.03346875,"end":5924.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5924.87721875,"end":5924.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5924.894093750001,"end":5927.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5927.7459687499995,"end":5946.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5946.66284375,"end":5948.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5948.11409375,"end":5961.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5948.13096875,"end":5950.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5961.02346875,"end":5962.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5962.727843750001,"end":5962.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5962.964093750001,"end":5963.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5964.128468750001,"end":5964.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5965.309718750001,"end":5966.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5966.339093750001,"end":5967.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5967.503468750001,"end":5968.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5969.055968750001,"end":5971.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5971.722218750001,"end":5972.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5973.3084687499995,"end":5974.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5975.704718750001,"end":5977.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5977.780343750001,"end":5986.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5987.36534375,"end":5995.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5995.499093750001,"end":5995.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5996.78159375,"end":6018.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6018.837218750001,"end":6019.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6019.630343750001,"end":6020.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6020.710343750001,"end":6028.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6028.5740937499995,"end":6030.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6031.00409375,"end":6031.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6032.40471875,"end":6034.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6034.98659375,"end":6045.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6045.550343750001,"end":6048.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6048.94221875,"end":6066.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6067.18409375,"end":6069.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6070.08659375,"end":6083.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6083.58659375,"end":6087.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6087.029093749999,"end":6087.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6089.64471875,"end":6093.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6094.0322187500005,"end":6104.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6103.60034375,"end":6108.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6108.038468750001,"end":6109.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6109.962218750001,"end":6110.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6110.82284375,"end":6110.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6111.649718750001,"end":6118.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6118.83846875,"end":6120.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6120.036593750001,"end":6132.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6133.5028437500005,"end":6171.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6171.62346875,"end":6188.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6188.903468750001,"end":6191.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6192.464093750001,"end":6207.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6208.00596875,"end":6230.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6231.512843750001,"end":6239.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6241.33409375,"end":6254.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6254.614718750001,"end":6262.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6262.394093750001,"end":6263.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6264.368468750001,"end":6267.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6267.507218750001,"end":6276.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6277.00784375,"end":6277.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6277.93596875,"end":6284.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6284.669093750001,"end":6290.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6290.187218749999,"end":6298.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6291.216593749999,"end":6291.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6291.317843750001,"end":6291.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6298.52346875,"end":6308.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6308.26034375,"end":6308.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6309.357218749999,"end":6311.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6311.483468750001,"end":6313.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6331.42971875,"end":6334.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6334.56846875,"end":6334.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6335.22659375,"end":6337.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6338.466593749999,"end":6339.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6341.87534375,"end":6342.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6342.11159375,"end":6342.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6343.7822187500005,"end":6345.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6345.75659375,"end":6349.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6350.07659375,"end":6357.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6357.85596875,"end":6366.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6366.360968750001,"end":6366.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6366.58034375,"end":6366.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6366.63096875,"end":6371.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6366.66471875,"end":6367.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6371.2040937500005,"end":6382.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6383.235968750001,"end":6386.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6387.690968750001,"end":6391.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6390.5428437499995,"end":6393.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6392.34846875,"end":6393.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6394.204718750001,"end":6398.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6398.03534375,"end":6398.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6398.49096875,"end":6398.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6398.609093749999,"end":6429.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6430.13159375,"end":6432.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6432.7978437500005,"end":6440.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6441.11721875,"end":6441.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6441.977843750001,"end":6451.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6444.171593749999,"end":6444.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6444.20534375,"end":6444.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6444.25596875,"end":6444.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6444.374093750001,"end":6444.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6444.407843750001,"end":6444.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6451.022843750001,"end":6452.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6452.06909375,"end":6452.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6452.609093749999,"end":6455.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6456.43971875,"end":6456.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6457.0809687500005,"end":6457.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6457.09784375,"end":6457.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6457.18221875,"end":6460.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6460.70909375,"end":6462.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6462.21096875,"end":6462.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6462.599093750001,"end":6463.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6463.56096875,"end":6466.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6464.3709687499995,"end":6464.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6466.024718750001,"end":6466.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6466.04159375,"end":6466.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6466.09221875,"end":6470.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6466.109093749999,"end":6467.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6470.88471875,"end":6477.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6478.83284375,"end":6480.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6479.67659375,"end":6481.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6481.026593750001,"end":6483.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6483.94596875,"end":6484.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6484.41846875,"end":6487.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6487.0340937500005,"end":6489.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6490.13909375,"end":6491.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6492.029093749999,"end":6494.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6492.99096875,"end":6495.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6495.28596875,"end":6497.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6497.715968750001,"end":6501.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6501.02346875,"end":6501.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6501.58034375,"end":6511.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6514.42221875,"end":6516.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6517.5272187499995,"end":6518.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6519.90659375,"end":6521.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6521.982218749999,"end":6522.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6523.28159375,"end":6524.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6524.91846875,"end":6527.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6524.952218750001,"end":6525.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6525.9647187499995,"end":6526.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6526.352843750001,"end":6526.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6530.234093749999,"end":6530.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6530.841593749999,"end":6532.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6532.66409375,"end":6533.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6533.96346875,"end":6533.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6534.53721875,"end":6539.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6540.07221875,"end":6541.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6541.84409375,"end":6546.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6546.552218750001,"end":6548.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6548.67846875,"end":6551.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6552.39096875,"end":6556.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6556.727843750001,"end":6557.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6557.97659375,"end":6564.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6565.97534375,"end":6570.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6570.80159375,"end":6573.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6570.81846875,"end":6571.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6573.653468750001,"end":6575.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6576.20159375,"end":6578.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6579.458468750001,"end":6580.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6582.24284375,"end":6583.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6583.727843750001,"end":6585.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6586.343468749999,"end":6589.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6586.66409375,"end":6587.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6589.27971875,"end":6607.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6608.280968749999,"end":6610.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6611.26784375,"end":6622.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6623.78909375,"end":6625.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6625.9490937499995,"end":6629.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6630.80909375,"end":6634.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6635.382218750001,"end":6639.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6640.7147187499995,"end":6642.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6642.57096875,"end":6643.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6643.9715937500005,"end":6644.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6645.11909375,"end":6651.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6650.249093750001,"end":6651.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6651.9872187500005,"end":6657.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6658.51784375,"end":6662.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6662.989718750001,"end":6664.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6665.571593750001,"end":6667.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6669.233468750001,"end":6670.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6670.88721875,"end":6671.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6672.135968750001,"end":6672.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6672.8447187500005,"end":6674.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6674.7684687500005,"end":6677.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6678.63284375,"end":6685.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6685.61909375,"end":6686.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6688.4540937500005,"end":6691.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6692.68971875,"end":6705.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6706.03784375,"end":6712.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6714.559718750001,"end":6721.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6720.0272187499995,"end":6721.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6721.03971875,"end":6721.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6721.124093750001,"end":6721.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6721.5965937500005,"end":6729.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6730.33784375,"end":6736.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6736.9697187500005,"end":6753.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6754.57034375,"end":6758.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6759.19409375,"end":6762.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6762.77159375,"end":6764.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6765.20159375,"end":6768.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6769.52159375,"end":6773.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6774.48284375,"end":6777.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6778.80284375,"end":6783.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6784.33784375,"end":6789.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6790.7840937500005,"end":6791.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6790.93596875,"end":6791.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6792.30284375,"end":6795.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6796.909718750001,"end":6800.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6801.38159375,"end":6801.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6801.48284375,"end":6802.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6802.90034375,"end":6804.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6804.368468750001,"end":6804.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6804.38534375,"end":6806.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6806.78159375,"end":6813.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6813.3290937500005,"end":6814.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6815.894093750001,"end":6819.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6821.49659375,"end":6822.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6822.62721875,"end":6824.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6824.92221875,"end":6834.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6830.811593750001,"end":6830.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6835.09784375,"end":6841.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6841.69596875,"end":6845.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6844.581593750001,"end":6844.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6844.952843749999,"end":6845.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6845.003468750001,"end":6845.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6845.03721875,"end":6845.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6845.6278437500005,"end":6853.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6853.42409375,"end":6856.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6858.16596875,"end":6863.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6863.903468750001,"end":6864.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6864.831593750001,"end":6864.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6865.1522187499995,"end":6869.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6869.0165937500005,"end":6870.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6869.624093750001,"end":6869.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6869.91096875,"end":6869.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6871.46346875,"end":6873.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6871.80096875,"end":6872.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6873.2353437500005,"end":6873.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6873.48846875,"end":6877.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6877.89284375,"end":6889.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6889.030343750001,"end":6889.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6889.65471875,"end":6893.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6893.82284375,"end":6905.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6906.225968750001,"end":6911.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6912.216593749999,"end":6917.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6917.83596875,"end":6919.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6919.860968750001,"end":6919.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6920.77221875,"end":6920.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6920.97471875,"end":6927.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6927.640343750001,"end":6929.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6929.479718750001,"end":6929.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6930.44159375,"end":6940.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6940.7353437500005,"end":6944.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6946.253468750001,"end":6947.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6947.991593750001,"end":6960.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6960.0740937499995,"end":6963.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6963.972218750001,"end":6963.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6963.98909375,"end":6964.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6964.09034375,"end":6964.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6964.3603437500005,"end":6964.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6964.79909375,"end":6964.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6965.760968750001,"end":6977.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6967.14471875,"end":6967.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6968.292218750001,"end":6969.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6970.13159375,"end":6970.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6970.1990937499995,"end":6971.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6973.169093750001,"end":6973.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6977.03346875,"end":6983.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6983.96909375,"end":6991.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6991.022843750001,"end":6991.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6992.35596875,"end":6999.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7000.0340937500005,"end":7005.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7005.889718750001,"end":7005.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7005.99096875,"end":7006.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7006.024718750001,"end":7007.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7007.475968750001,"end":7007.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7007.49284375,"end":7023.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7023.6590937500005,"end":7024.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7025.49846875,"end":7028.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7030.307843750001,"end":7035.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7035.370343750001,"end":7035.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7035.876593750001,"end":7036.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7036.028468750001,"end":7036.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7037.665343750001,"end":7046.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7046.794718749999,"end":7048.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7049.190968750001,"end":7079.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7080.645968750001,"end":7084.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7094.97284375,"end":7098.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7098.837218750001,"end":7101.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7101.554093750001,"end":7102.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7102.88721875,"end":7103.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7103.69721875,"end":7104.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7105.0809687500005,"end":7105.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7106.68409375,"end":7107.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7131.169718749999,"end":7139.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7134.966593749999,"end":7135.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7135.860968750001,"end":7135.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7139.995343750001,"end":7141.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7143.57284375,"end":7143.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7144.450343750001,"end":7146.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7147.47096875,"end":7149.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7149.63096875,"end":7150.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7152.19596875,"end":7156.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7156.33034375,"end":7159.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7159.114718750001,"end":7164.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7163.940968750001,"end":7167.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7166.69159375,"end":7172.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7173.222218750001,"end":7173.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7174.403468750001,"end":7181.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7180.93409375,"end":7184.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7182.62159375,"end":7182.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7184.055968750001,"end":7190.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7189.08471875,"end":7198.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7198.872218750001,"end":7201.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7200.94784375,"end":7200.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7201.0322187500005,"end":7201.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7201.251593750001,"end":7201.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7201.3865937499995,"end":7206.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7206.314093750001,"end":7211.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7211.03909375,"end":7212.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7212.20346875,"end":7227.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7227.374093750001,"end":7231.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7231.255343750001,"end":7235.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7235.64284375,"end":7244.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7244.92409375,"end":7257.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7256.17971875,"end":7257.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7257.647843750001,"end":7264.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7264.51596875,"end":7266.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7267.0809687500005,"end":7267.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7268.245343750001,"end":7273.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7271.755343750001,"end":7271.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7271.856593750001,"end":7271.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7273.66221875,"end":7273.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7273.814093750001,"end":7279.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7279.99034375,"end":7280.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7280.36159375,"end":7285.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7285.55909375,"end":7292.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7287.8709687499995,"end":7287.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7290.925343750001,"end":7297.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7298.35034375,"end":7299.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7299.81846875,"end":7300.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7301.100968750001,"end":7301.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7302.366593750001,"end":7304.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7304.661593750001,"end":7304.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7304.72909375,"end":7304.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7304.847218750001,"end":7304.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7304.86409375,"end":7304.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7305.94409375,"end":7310.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7309.251593750001,"end":7310.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7310.432843750001,"end":7310.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7310.77034375,"end":7310.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7311.090968750001,"end":7312.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7312.170968750001,"end":7315.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7314.53346875,"end":7315.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7315.98471875,"end":7316.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7316.30534375,"end":7317.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7317.4697187500005,"end":7317.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7318.026593750001,"end":7323.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7323.44346875,"end":7323.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7323.510968750001,"end":7323.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7323.84846875,"end":7325.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7326.177218750001,"end":7330.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7330.9697187500005,"end":7337.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7331.30721875,"end":7331.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7334.44596875,"end":7334.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7337.854718750001,"end":7345.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7345.60034375,"end":7348.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7349.4647187499995,"end":7351.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7353.177218750001,"end":7353.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7353.3290937500005,"end":7357.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7358.054093750001,"end":7360.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7360.75409375,"end":7361.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7361.7665937500005,"end":7362.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7363.589093750001,"end":7365.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7365.4959687499995,"end":7365.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7366.170968750001,"end":7369.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7370.102843750001,"end":7376.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7376.73471875,"end":7379.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7379.63721875,"end":7385.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7385.86409375,"end":7388.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7388.564093750001,"end":7392.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7392.782843750001,"end":7393.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7393.89659375,"end":7393.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7394.757218750001,"end":7394.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7394.97659375,"end":7399.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7401.794093750001,"end":7401.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7401.827843750001,"end":7405.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7406.232218749999,"end":7410.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7410.788468750001,"end":7417.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7418.2303437499995,"end":7419.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7419.310343749999,"end":7422.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7423.09034375,"end":7424.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7424.372843749999,"end":7440.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7440.606593750001,"end":7441.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7441.60221875,"end":7444.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7444.84221875,"end":7448.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7448.97659375,"end":7455.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7455.76034375,"end":7456.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7457.31284375,"end":7459.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7459.388468749999,"end":7459.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7460.4178437499995,"end":7468.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7468.97346875,"end":7471.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7472.905343750001,"end":7474.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7476.16221875,"end":7481.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7481.30909375,"end":7490.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7491.11346875,"end":7501.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7501.60971875,"end":7502.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7503.465968750001,"end":7505.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7505.25471875,"end":7507.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7507.70159375,"end":7512.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7513.776593750001,"end":7514.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7514.18159375,"end":7514.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7514.569718750001,"end":7514.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7514.58659375,"end":7514.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7514.97471875,"end":7515.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7515.02534375,"end":7515.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7515.970343750001,"end":7516.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7516.03784375,"end":7516.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7516.965968750001,"end":7517.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7517.13471875,"end":7517.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7517.97846875,"end":7518.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7518.029093749999,"end":7518.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7518.90659375,"end":7519.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7519.024718750001,"end":7520.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7519.46346875,"end":7519.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7520.49284375,"end":7527.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7527.225968750001,"end":7527.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7528.019093750001,"end":7536.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7536.034718750001,"end":7556.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7557.19596875,"end":7557.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7558.545968750001,"end":7559.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7560.30096875,"end":7566.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7566.91596875,"end":7568.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7569.126593750001,"end":7571.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7571.64096875,"end":7575.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7575.57284375,"end":7577.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7577.850968750001,"end":7582.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7583.68971875,"end":7583.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7583.706593750001,"end":7583.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7583.74034375,"end":7583.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7583.97659375,"end":7585.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7585.765343750001,"end":7587.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7587.216593749999,"end":7598.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7598.16846875,"end":7601.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7601.07096875,"end":7602.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7603.112843750001,"end":7603.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7604.04096875,"end":7606.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7607.5340937500005,"end":7611.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7612.444718750001,"end":7615.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7615.954718750001,"end":7615.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7615.98846875,"end":7616.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7616.5115937499995,"end":7617.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7617.96284375,"end":7618.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7618.485968750001,"end":7623.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7624.257218750001,"end":7629.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7630.41659375,"end":7635.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7635.968468750001,"end":7635.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7635.9853437500005,"end":7643.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7644.0009687500005,"end":7653.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7652.995343750001,"end":7660.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7660.28534375,"end":7660.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7660.909718750001,"end":7660.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7660.960343750001,"end":7661.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7661.02784375,"end":7661.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7661.97284375,"end":7662.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7662.02346875,"end":7662.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7662.597218750001,"end":7662.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7662.833468750001,"end":7662.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7662.95159375,"end":7662.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7662.968468750001,"end":7667.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7667.96346875,"end":7668.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7668.840968750001,"end":7671.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7672.114718750001,"end":7676.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7676.654093749999,"end":7679.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7680.5184687500005,"end":7685.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7685.12534375,"end":7686.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7687.33596875,"end":7692.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7692.61784375,"end":7696.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7696.85346875,"end":7698.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7699.300343750001,"end":7699.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7699.874093750001,"end":7702.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7702.18596875,"end":7705.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7706.843468750001,"end":7708.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7710.15096875,"end":7710.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7710.25221875,"end":7710.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7710.38721875,"end":7717.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7713.745343750001,"end":7713.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7713.880343750001,"end":7713.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7715.77034375,"end":7725.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7726.36784375,"end":7738.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7739.479718750001,"end":7739.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7740.44159375,"end":7742.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7743.411593750001,"end":7746.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7746.98909375,"end":7747.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7747.073468750001,"end":7752.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7750.060343749999,"end":7750.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7751.88284375,"end":7752.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7752.25409375,"end":7756.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7756.860968750001,"end":7757.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7757.53596875,"end":7769.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7768.251593750001,"end":7768.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7769.5340937500005,"end":7771.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7772.048468750001,"end":7789.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7788.16409375,"end":7790.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7790.03721875,"end":7790.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7790.138468749999,"end":7790.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7790.3240937499995,"end":7792.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7791.505343750001,"end":7791.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7792.872218750001,"end":7792.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7792.93971875,"end":7792.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7792.97346875,"end":7793.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7793.02409375,"end":7793.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7793.26034375,"end":7793.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7793.73284375,"end":7794.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7794.036593750001,"end":7819.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7820.243468750001,"end":7821.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7821.509093750001,"end":7823.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7823.34846875,"end":7828.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7829.339093750001,"end":7829.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7829.96346875,"end":7840.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7840.45971875,"end":7840.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7840.74659375,"end":7842.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7842.923468750001,"end":7845.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7846.062218750001,"end":7847.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7848.222218750001,"end":7849.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7849.0322187500005,"end":7853.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7849.08284375,"end":7849.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7854.280343750001,"end":7855.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7856.82846875,"end":7865.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7885.85346875,"end":7892.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7893.02534375,"end":7894.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7894.628468750001,"end":7899.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7899.43784375,"end":7899.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7900.534718750001,"end":7901.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7902.779093749999,"end":7903.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7906.170968750001,"end":7908.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7909.579718750001,"end":7945.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7945.84409375,"end":7978.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7979.8134687500005,"end":8020.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8022.94596875,"end":8029.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8030.2528437500005,"end":8032.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8033.054093750001,"end":8034.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8039.78721875,"end":8040.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8040.968468750001,"end":8077.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8077.97534375,"end":8109.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8109.835343750001,"end":8110.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8110.544093750001,"end":8110.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8110.965968750001,"end":8116.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8115.792218750001,"end":8119.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8117.850968750001,"end":8133.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8119.55534375,"end":8119.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8124.685343750001,"end":8125.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8133.359093750001,"end":8135.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8133.7978437500005,"end":8134.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8135.249093750001,"end":8135.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8135.53596875,"end":8135.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8135.68784375,"end":8142.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8145.745343750001,"end":8146.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8146.70721875,"end":8147.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8147.567843750001,"end":8162.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8162.620343750001,"end":8162.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8162.755343750001,"end":8162.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8162.78909375,"end":8168.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8168.8134687500005,"end":8176.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8177.520968750001,"end":8181.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8179.41096875,"end":8195.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8195.391593750002,"end":8196.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8196.31971875,"end":8212.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8213.19471875,"end":8224.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8224.534718750001,"end":8228.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8228.972843750002,"end":8236.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8236.617218750001,"end":8242.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8243.485343750002,"end":8257.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8257.74471875,"end":8259.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8259.60096875,"end":8261.524718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8262.70596875,"end":8262.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8263.06034375,"end":8274.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8274.14721875,"end":8275.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8275.36221875,"end":8281.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8281.875968750002,"end":8283.040343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8283.175343750001,"end":8286.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8286.887843750003,"end":8289.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8290.245968750001,"end":8292.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8292.844718750002,"end":8295.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8296.202843750001,"end":8305.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8305.872218750003,"end":8306.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8306.024093750002,"end":8307.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8308.082843750002,"end":8312.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8312.993468750003,"end":8315.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8316.250343750002,"end":8321.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8322.64596875,"end":8332.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8333.243468750003,"end":8337.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8338.27221875,"end":8344.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8346.01784375,"end":8348.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8348.481593750003,"end":8387.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8388.762218750002,"end":8422.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8422.191593750002,"end":8429.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8430.07221875,"end":8432.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8431.169093750003,"end":8431.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8432.55284375,"end":8467.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8467.41659375,"end":8489.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8490.383468750002,"end":8506.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8506.53284375,"end":8535.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8536.097843750002,"end":8539.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8539.70909375,"end":8539.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8539.72596875,"end":8554.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8554.035968750002,"end":8554.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8554.84596875,"end":8554.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8554.879718750002,"end":8566.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8565.71346875,"end":8566.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8567.637218750002,"end":8571.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8583.11159375,"end":8584.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8585.237843750001,"end":8586.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8586.891593750002,"end":8589.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8593.18596875,"end":8598.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8598.29909375,"end":8598.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8598.535343750002,"end":8599.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8599.497218750003,"end":8601.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8602.88909375,"end":8604.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8605.032218750002,"end":8606.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8606.78721875,"end":8607.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8608.12034375,"end":8609.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8609.89221875,"end":8611.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8612.980343750001,"end":8613.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8613.351593750001,"end":8613.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8614.667843750001,"end":8615.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8616.355343750001,"end":8617.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8618.414093750001,"end":8619.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8619.54471875,"end":8620.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8622.683468750001,"end":8629.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8629.99034375,"end":8633.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8633.88846875,"end":8634.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8635.407218750002,"end":8637.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8638.512218750002,"end":8639.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8640.469718750002,"end":8643.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8643.743468750003,"end":8644.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8645.12721875,"end":8645.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8646.64596875,"end":8647.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8648.99159375,"end":8650.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8650.645343750002,"end":8652.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8652.61971875,"end":8658.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8659.42034375,"end":8662.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8662.829093750002,"end":8666.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8667.97596875,"end":8668.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8670.203468750002,"end":8674.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8675.35034375,"end":8677.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8678.067218750002,"end":8680.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8681.425343750001,"end":8683.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8683.99034375,"end":8685.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8686.403468750003,"end":8687.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8690.132843750001,"end":8690.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8691.53346875,"end":8693.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8693.676593750002,"end":8695.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8695.70159375,"end":8697.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8699.02596875,"end":8700.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8701.574093750001,"end":8702.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8702.56971875,"end":8703.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8704.24034375,"end":8706.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8707.159718750001,"end":8709.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8710.028468750003,"end":8720.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8720.676593750002,"end":8723.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8724.743468750003,"end":8724.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8724.777218750001,"end":8727.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8727.56159375,"end":8728.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8730.210968750001,"end":8730.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8732.52284375,"end":8733.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8733.82221875,"end":8734.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8733.855968750002,"end":8737.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8737.19721875,"end":8738.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8739.77909375,"end":8741.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8742.597218750001,"end":8744.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8746.613468750002,"end":8747.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8748.891593750002,"end":8750.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8750.933468750001,"end":8753.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8754.07221875,"end":8756.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8756.99159375,"end":8758.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8760.282218750002,"end":8761.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8762.66159375,"end":8763.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8764.922843750002,"end":8766.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8766.593468750001,"end":8769.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8769.58034375,"end":8770.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8771.149718750003,"end":8771.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8772.28034375,"end":8772.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8773.292843750001,"end":8774.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8774.79471875,"end":8775.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8777.190968750001,"end":8778.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8779.43534375,"end":8781.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8782.75971875,"end":8784.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8782.844093750002,"end":8783.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8783.586593750002,"end":8784.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8784.700343750003,"end":8784.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8785.45971875,"end":8786.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8787.383468750002,"end":8788.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8790.72471875,"end":8793.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8794.94346875,"end":8797.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8797.710968750001,"end":8798.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8798.554718750001,"end":8800.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8801.44034375,"end":8803.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8803.617218750001,"end":8805.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8805.726593750001,"end":8809.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8810.856593750003,"end":8811.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8812.13909375,"end":8812.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8814.14721875,"end":8816.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8816.98221875,"end":8820.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8821.082843750002,"end":8821.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8821.977218750002,"end":8844.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8844.74159375,"end":8844.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8845.72034375,"end":8845.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8845.73721875,"end":8846.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8846.63159375,"end":8849.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8849.53409375,"end":8852.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8853.145343750002,"end":8856.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8853.33096875,"end":8855.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8857.313468750002,"end":8858.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8859.54096875,"end":8860.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8862.409718750001,"end":8864.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8865.784718750001,"end":8866.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8866.67909375,"end":8868.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8869.78409375,"end":8870.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8871.167843750001,"end":8873.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8874.47534375,"end":8876.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8876.719718750002,"end":8878.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8878.67721875,"end":8879.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8880.769718750002,"end":8881.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8882.42346875,"end":8883.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8884.684718750003,"end":8885.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8886.49034375,"end":8888.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8889.59534375,"end":8890.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8890.91159375,"end":8891.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8892.51471875,"end":8894.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8894.55659375,"end":8898.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8899.31534375,"end":8904.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8906.183468750001,"end":8906.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8907.38159375,"end":8908.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8909.659718750001,"end":8910.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8911.937843750002,"end":8912.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8916.44346875,"end":8918.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8919.59909375,"end":8921.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8922.231593750003,"end":8923.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8923.61534375,"end":8924.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8925.167843750001,"end":8928.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8928.62721875,"end":8929.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8929.94346875,"end":8931.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8932.06971875,"end":8932.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8933.453468750002,"end":8934.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8935.22534375,"end":8935.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8936.828468750002,"end":8937.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8938.07721875,"end":8940.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8941.48596875,"end":8942.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8944.472843750002,"end":8945.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8946.71721875,"end":8947.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8948.15159375,"end":8949.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8950.24409375,"end":8952.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8952.82596875,"end":8954.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8955.239093750002,"end":8956.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8956.16721875,"end":8956.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8956.926593750002,"end":8956.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8956.977218750002,"end":8957.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8957.027843750002,"end":8957.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8957.46659375,"end":8960.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8960.031593750002,"end":8973.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8973.008468750002,"end":8975.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8973.61596875,"end":8973.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8973.76784375,"end":8976.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8977.39596875,"end":8977.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8978.08784375,"end":8979.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8980.129718750002,"end":8980.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8980.602218750002,"end":8982.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8982.82971875,"end":8983.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8985.32721875,"end":8986.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8987.925968750002,"end":8988.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8988.95534375,"end":8992.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8992.566593750002,"end":8994.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8996.211593750002,"end":8997.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8999.14784375,"end":9001.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9002.016593750002,"end":9002.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9003.602843750003,"end":9004.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9005.391593750002,"end":9006.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9007.66971875,"end":9008.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9009.72846875,"end":9010.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9011.719718750002,"end":9013.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9013.74471875,"end":9016.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9016.69784375,"end":9017.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9018.16596875,"end":9020.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9020.96721875,"end":9022.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9023.38034375,"end":9024.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9024.96659375,"end":9026.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9027.329093750002,"end":9028.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9029.52284375,"end":9029.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9030.40034375,"end":9031.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9031.699718750002,"end":9032.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9033.10034375,"end":9041.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9044.187218750001,"end":9044.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9045.402218750001,"end":9046.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9047.39346875,"end":9048.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9048.97971875,"end":9050.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9051.156593750002,"end":9052.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9053.23221875,"end":9056.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9057.737843750001,"end":9058.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9059.50971875,"end":9059.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9060.30284375,"end":9062.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9063.239093750002,"end":9064.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9065.14596875,"end":9065.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9067.69409375,"end":9071.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9072.199718750002,"end":9073.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9074.190968750001,"end":9075.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9076.317218750002,"end":9078.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9079.33784375,"end":9082.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9083.117843750002,"end":9085.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9086.03721875,"end":9086.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9086.66159375,"end":9087.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9089.14221875,"end":9090.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9092.16284375,"end":9093.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9095.453468750002,"end":9095.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9096.21284375,"end":9097.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9097.86659375,"end":9099.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9101.84909375,"end":9102.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9104.481593750003,"end":9107.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9108.34596875,"end":9110.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9111.13034375,"end":9111.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9112.29471875,"end":9112.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9114.066593750002,"end":9114.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9116.175968750002,"end":9116.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9117.40784375,"end":9118.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9119.31471875,"end":9119.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9119.85471875,"end":9120.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9121.390343750001,"end":9121.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9121.980968750002,"end":9123.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9123.75284375,"end":9125.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9126.199718750002,"end":9127.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9128.106593750003,"end":9128.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9130.469093750002,"end":9132.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9133.422218750002,"end":9133.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9134.99159375,"end":9137.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9138.09659375,"end":9138.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9139.36221875,"end":9141.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9142.24784375,"end":9142.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9143.14221875,"end":9143.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9145.335968750001,"end":9146.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9147.27659375,"end":9148.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9150.044093750003,"end":9150.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9151.461593750002,"end":9152.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9152.44034375,"end":9153.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9154.313468750002,"end":9155.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9158.39721875,"end":9160.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9161.28284375,"end":9163.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9164.87721875,"end":9165.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9166.109093750001,"end":9167.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9168.20159375,"end":9169.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9170.05784375,"end":9180.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9176.43659375,"end":9177.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9178.95096875,"end":9183.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9180.722843750002,"end":9181.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9183.06846875,"end":9184.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9185.29596875,"end":9188.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9189.227843750003,"end":9191.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9194.88096875,"end":9197.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9197.46284375,"end":9198.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9198.77909375,"end":9204.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9205.17471875,"end":9206.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9207.419093750003,"end":9207.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9208.414718750002,"end":9209.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9210.22034375,"end":9210.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9211.90784375,"end":9214.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9216.480968750002,"end":9217.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9217.999718750001,"end":9219.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9219.737843750001,"end":9221.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9222.758468750002,"end":9223.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9226.30221875,"end":9227.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9229.12034375,"end":9230.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9231.195968750002,"end":9232.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9232.69784375,"end":9235.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9236.34284375,"end":9237.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9236.477843750003,"end":9238.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9237.794093750003,"end":9237.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9237.844718750002,"end":9238.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9238.03034375,"end":9238.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9238.97534375,"end":9241.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9240.426593750002,"end":9240.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9240.96659375,"end":9241.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9241.03409375,"end":9241.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9241.82721875,"end":9249.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9241.945343750001,"end":9242.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9244.39221875,"end":9245.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9246.164093750001,"end":9246.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9246.180968750003,"end":9247.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9249.977843750003,"end":9251.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9252.239093750002,"end":9253.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9255.42846875,"end":9257.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9259.32659375,"end":9260.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9262.43159375,"end":9262.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9263.309093750002,"end":9265.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9266.80221875,"end":9268.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9269.29971875,"end":9270.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9271.81409375,"end":9273.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9273.36659375,"end":9274.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9275.20596875,"end":9276.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9277.703468750002,"end":9279.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9279.99846875,"end":9281.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9281.21346875,"end":9282.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9283.559093750002,"end":9287.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9287.96346875,"end":9291.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9293.24534375,"end":9295.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9295.48971875,"end":9297.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9299.08409375,"end":9299.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9300.012218750002,"end":9300.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9300.062843750002,"end":9302.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9303.08346875,"end":9304.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9305.15909375,"end":9308.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9308.618468750003,"end":9310.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9310.710968750001,"end":9312.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9313.394093750001,"end":9314.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9315.250343750002,"end":9316.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9316.95471875,"end":9317.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9318.102218750002,"end":9318.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9320.565968750001,"end":9321.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9323.13096875,"end":9324.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9325.08846875,"end":9326.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9327.585968750001,"end":9329.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9331.534718750001,"end":9332.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9333.762218750002,"end":9334.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9336.512843750003,"end":9338.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9339.31409375,"end":9342.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9343.95471875,"end":9345.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9347.835968750001,"end":9348.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9350.60346875,"end":9352.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9353.57346875,"end":9354.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9355.919093750003,"end":9357.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9358.26471875,"end":9360.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9360.62721875,"end":9363.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9365.132843750001,"end":9366.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9366.60096875,"end":9369.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9372.743468750003,"end":9373.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9373.890968750002,"end":9374.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9375.22409375,"end":9377.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9379.56096875,"end":9381.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9382.446593750003,"end":9382.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9383.23971875,"end":9384.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9385.66971875,"end":9388.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9385.72034375,"end":9387.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9387.30659375,"end":9387.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9387.35721875,"end":9387.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9389.46659375,"end":9390.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9391.289093750001,"end":9392.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9395.00159375,"end":9396.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9396.722843750002,"end":9398.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9398.562218750001,"end":9399.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9400.65471875,"end":9402.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9403.219718750002,"end":9403.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9403.962218750003,"end":9403.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9404.02971875,"end":9405.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9405.700343750003,"end":9406.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9407.337218750003,"end":9410.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9411.960968750001,"end":9413.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9413.294093750003,"end":9417.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9417.74909375,"end":9418.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9419.284718750001,"end":9422.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9424.07721875,"end":9425.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9426.54096875,"end":9429.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9430.540343750003,"end":9431.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9433.83096875,"end":9437.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9437.914718750002,"end":9438.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9439.062218750001,"end":9443.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9443.719718750002,"end":9445.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9446.80784375,"end":9452.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9447.077843750001,"end":9447.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9452.629718750002,"end":9474.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9461.168468750002,"end":9462.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9464.15534375,"end":9464.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9464.172218750002,"end":9466.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9474.719093750002,"end":9475.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9475.90034375,"end":9486.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9478.195343750001,"end":9478.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9479.950343750003,"end":9480.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9483.07221875,"end":9487.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9487.324718750002,"end":9487.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9489.113468750002,"end":9490.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9489.484718750002,"end":9492.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9490.328468750002,"end":9490.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9493.804718750001,"end":9499.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9506.76471875,"end":9511.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9508.97534375,"end":9510.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9511.35471875,"end":9511.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9511.81034375,"end":9511.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9511.91159375,"end":9516.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9515.08409375,"end":9515.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9520.534718750001,"end":9528.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9520.77096875,"end":9520.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9520.973468750002,"end":9521.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9529.32659375,"end":9537.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9537.86534375,"end":9539.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9540.278468750003,"end":9542.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9542.269718750002,"end":9543.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9544.09221875,"end":9545.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9546.235343750002,"end":9547.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9548.14221875,"end":9551.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9551.63534375,"end":9553.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9554.36909375,"end":9558.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9560.359718750002,"end":9561.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9561.76034375,"end":9563.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9563.81909375,"end":9577.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9577.707218750002,"end":9581.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9582.17909375,"end":9586.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9588.22034375,"end":9591.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9591.71346875,"end":9597.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9598.31159375,"end":9601.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9602.09159375,"end":9616.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9616.92471875,"end":9623.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9624.383468750002,"end":9629.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9629.14221875,"end":9643.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9644.17784375,"end":9648.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9649.25721875,"end":9654.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9655.112843750001,"end":9656.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9656.53034375,"end":9659.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9659.85471875,"end":9674.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9675.784718750001,"end":9681.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9682.399718750003,"end":9683.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9684.711593750002,"end":9687.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9687.47909375,"end":9689.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9689.80784375,"end":9693.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9693.85784375,"end":9701.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9701.839718750001,"end":9702.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9703.476593750001,"end":9705.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9705.67034375,"end":9706.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9707.52659375,"end":9725.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9725.987843750001,"end":9727.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9727.962218750003,"end":9729.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9730.24034375,"end":9734.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9734.391593750002,"end":9736.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9737.024093750002,"end":9754.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9754.92846875,"end":9756.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9757.40909375,"end":9765.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9767.11221875,"end":9779.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9780.22409375,"end":9784.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9785.23596875,"end":9788.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9789.31971875,"end":9790.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9792.120968750001,"end":9797.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9797.622218750003,"end":9800.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9801.60471875,"end":9814.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9815.003468750001,"end":9815.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9816.47159375,"end":9820.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9820.875968750002,"end":9826.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9827.153468750003,"end":9839.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9840.315968750001,"end":9847.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9848.41596875,"end":9855.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9855.992843750002,"end":9870.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9871.382843750001,"end":9874.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9875.63534375,"end":9877.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9877.96409375,"end":9878.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9878.09909375,"end":9880.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9881.00159375,"end":9883.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9883.617218750001,"end":9885.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9886.45221875,"end":9888.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9888.54471875,"end":9907.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9907.394093750001,"end":9913.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9913.789718750002,"end":9924.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9925.281593750002,"end":9927.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9928.082843750002,"end":9931.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9932.655968750001,"end":9934.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9934.95096875,"end":9938.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9939.102218750002,"end":9940.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9941.27909375,"end":9942.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9942.848468750002,"end":9954.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9955.25159375,"end":9961.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9961.562843750002,"end":9962.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9963.030968750001,"end":9971.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9972.41346875,"end":9974.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9974.30346875,"end":9975.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9975.83909375,"end":9976.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9976.480343750001,"end":9976.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9977.273468750001,"end":9977.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9978.31971875,"end":9979.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9980.46284375,"end":9983.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9984.563468750002,"end":9986.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9987.80346875,"end":9988.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9988.934093750002,"end":9993.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9993.59159375,"end":10000.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10001.60721875,"end":10009.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10011.917843750001,"end":10012.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10013.01471875,"end":10014.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10014.719093750002,"end":10015.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10016.11971875,"end":10017.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10017.65534375,"end":10020.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10020.794093750003,"end":10025.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10025.957843750002,"end":10030.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10031.340968750003,"end":10034.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10035.47534375,"end":10041.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10043.11971875,"end":10045.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10045.58346875,"end":10049.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10049.71784375,"end":10051.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10052.316593750002,"end":10075.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10076.07659375,"end":10077.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10077.71346875,"end":10082.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10083.704093750002,"end":10087.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10087.78784375,"end":10090.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10090.96034375,"end":10093.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10093.96409375,"end":10105.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10105.38846875,"end":10110.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10110.97409375,"end":10112.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10113.47159375,"end":10120.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10120.91346875,"end":10121.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10122.78659375,"end":10123.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10124.828468750002,"end":10127.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10128.50721875,"end":10129.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10130.71784375,"end":10143.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10143.863468750002,"end":10144.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10145.652218750001,"end":10150.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10150.984718750002,"end":10153.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10154.157218750002,"end":10161.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10161.59909375,"end":10162.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10162.898468750001,"end":10165.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10166.425343750001,"end":10167.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10169.00721875,"end":10169.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10170.40784375,"end":10174.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10174.99784375,"end":10185.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10186.60784375,"end":10196.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10197.863468750002,"end":10205.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10205.676593750002,"end":10206.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10206.80721875,"end":10209.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10210.70534375,"end":10214.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10215.51471875,"end":10232.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10229.402843750002,"end":10231.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10231.91721875,"end":10237.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10237.469093750002,"end":10249.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10248.977843750003,"end":10264.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10265.49846875,"end":10293.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10294.270343750002,"end":10302.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10303.180343750002,"end":10306.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10768.05284375,"end":10772.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10779.629093750002,"end":10785.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10789.78784375,"end":10793.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10794.192218750002,"end":10823.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10823.80784375,"end":10831.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10831.87409375,"end":10833.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10833.308468750001,"end":10836.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10837.03784375,"end":10837.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10837.56096875,"end":10846.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10847.196593750003,"end":10862.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10863.24471875,"end":10883.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10883.86596875,"end":10885.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10886.22846875,"end":10886.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10887.308468750001,"end":10896.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10896.74159375,"end":10899.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10899.390968750002,"end":10904.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10904.68971875,"end":10927.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10927.926593750002,"end":10930.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10930.94721875,"end":10946.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10943.50221875,"end":10944.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10946.03346875,"end":10961.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10963.22909375,"end":10968.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10963.347218750001,"end":10963.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10966.789718750002,"end":10982.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10983.293468750002,"end":10983.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10984.17096875,"end":10988.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10984.62659375,"end":10987.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10988.54159375,"end":10991.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10989.840968750003,"end":10995.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10993.941593750002,"end":11012.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11012.672843750002,"end":11045.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11046.102218750002,"end":11046.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11046.96284375,"end":11054.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11054.03346875,"end":11058.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11059.112843750001,"end":11097.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11097.80721875,"end":11122.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11122.680968750003,"end":11128.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11129.75159375,"end":11131.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11132.839718750001,"end":11140.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11140.028468750003,"end":11142.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11143.352843750003,"end":11147.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11147.79096875,"end":11150.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11151.23346875,"end":11159.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11160.49784375,"end":11218.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11218.51409375,"end":11220.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11220.960968750001,"end":11236.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11236.87409375,"end":11249.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11250.087218750003,"end":11250.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11250.120968750001,"end":11250.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11250.964718750001,"end":11258.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11258.32221875,"end":11262.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11262.034718750001,"end":11263.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11263.55346875,"end":11263.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11263.570343750001,"end":11270.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11270.99534375,"end":11282.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11282.33534375,"end":11282.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11283.415343750003,"end":11293.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11293.33784375,"end":11294.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11295.210968750001,"end":11306.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11306.43284375,"end":11317.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11317.418468750002,"end":11320.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11320.590968750003,"end":11322.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11320.641593750002,"end":11320.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11323.29096875,"end":11341.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11340.739718750003,"end":11346.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11346.527843750002,"end":11347.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11347.962218750003,"end":11353.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11353.969718750002,"end":11354.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11354.914718750002,"end":11354.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11354.94846875,"end":11360.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11360.702843750001,"end":11362.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11363.85846875,"end":11365.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11365.96784375,"end":11380.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11380.024718750003,"end":11381.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11381.99909375,"end":11383.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11383.770968750003,"end":11395.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11397.08534375,"end":11398.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11398.992218750001,"end":11399.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11399.66721875,"end":11428.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11429.13096875,"end":11432.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11429.316593750002,"end":11430.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11432.03346875,"end":11432.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11432.13471875,"end":11433.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11432.23596875,"end":11443.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11441.93909375,"end":11445.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11446.140968750002,"end":11450.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11448.28409375,"end":11452.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11451.65909375,"end":11455.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11453.059718750003,"end":11457.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11457.953468750002,"end":11458.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11459.809718750003,"end":11466.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11460.974093750003,"end":11461.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11467.20096875,"end":11473.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11473.64721875,"end":11474.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11474.49096875,"end":11474.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11474.86221875,"end":11475.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11475.68909375,"end":11475.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11475.992843750002,"end":11487.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11487.214718750001,"end":11489.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11489.62784375,"end":11511.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11500.10721875,"end":11501.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11501.187218750001,"end":11501.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11501.28846875,"end":11501.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11506.620968750001,"end":11506.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11506.637843750003,"end":11515.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11513.77596875,"end":11531.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11532.321593750003,"end":11533.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11532.50721875,"end":11534.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11534.262218750002,"end":11535.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11535.56159375,"end":11540.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11535.578468750002,"end":11536.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11536.30409375,"end":11536.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11537.316593750002,"end":11537.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11539.999718750001,"end":11540.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11540.269718750002,"end":11540.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11542.007843750001,"end":11544.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11544.57284375,"end":11555.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11556.48659375,"end":11559.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11572.973468750002,"end":11576.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11577.36096875,"end":11578.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11583.149093750002,"end":11583.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11583.23346875,"end":11583.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11583.300968750002,"end":11596.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11596.581593750001,"end":11597.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11598.134093750003,"end":11599.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11599.78784375,"end":11604.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11604.79971875,"end":11609.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11609.38971875,"end":11613.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11614.199093750001,"end":11622.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11623.851593750001,"end":11634.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11634.364718750003,"end":11635.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11636.254718750002,"end":11663.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11664.38534375,"end":11670.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11671.320968750002,"end":11674.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11674.004093750002,"end":11685.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11685.73221875,"end":11693.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11694.16971875,"end":11708.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11709.171593750001,"end":11710.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11711.297843750002,"end":11712.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11712.462218750003,"end":11714.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11715.31409375,"end":11716.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11717.777843750002,"end":11726.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11723.17784375,"end":11723.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11726.265968750002,"end":11733.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11733.47159375,"end":11741.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11742.364718750003,"end":11762.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11761.973468750002,"end":11769.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11770.360343750002,"end":11773.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11772.97596875,"end":11777.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11776.570343750001,"end":11781.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11781.784718750001,"end":11801.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11788.602218750002,"end":11789.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11790.05346875,"end":11791.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11791.89284375,"end":11792.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11801.612843750001,"end":11812.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11812.649093750002,"end":11818.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11818.977218750002,"end":11820.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11820.968468750001,"end":11822.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11823.73596875,"end":11823.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11824.242218750001,"end":11833.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11834.24909375,"end":11835.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11835.83534375,"end":11837.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11837.50596875,"end":11838.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11838.72096875,"end":11846.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11848.019093750001,"end":11850.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11850.786593750003,"end":11857.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11858.481593750003,"end":11864.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11865.19784375,"end":11872.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11867.121593750002,"end":11868.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11872.79159375,"end":11877.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11877.73596875,"end":11879.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11879.69346875,"end":11891.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11882.22471875,"end":11884.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11890.628468750001,"end":11894.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11897.918468750002,"end":11899.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11899.285343750002,"end":11899.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11899.57221875,"end":11899.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11901.074093750001,"end":11904.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11903.68971875,"end":11904.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11904.06096875,"end":11904.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11904.837218750003,"end":11907.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11907.874718750001,"end":11912.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11912.380343750003,"end":11915.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11915.940968750001,"end":11938.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11918.742218750001,"end":11918.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11918.759093750003,"end":11918.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11918.82659375,"end":11918.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11918.94471875,"end":11919.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11937.726593750001,"end":11963.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11940.81471875,"end":11941.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11964.28784375,"end":11976.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11977.46721875,"end":12019.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12019.941593750002,"end":12039.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12040.44471875,"end":12046.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12047.02596875,"end":12088.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12089.027843750002,"end":12111.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12109.952843750001,"end":12180.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12181.587218750003,"end":12182.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12182.835968750001,"end":12207.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12208.01346875,"end":12208.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12208.047218750002,"end":12261.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12261.60846875,"end":12262.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12262.55346875,"end":12267.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12280.32284375,"end":12283.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12283.934093750002,"end":12286.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12287.511593750001,"end":12288.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12288.76034375,"end":12290.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12292.844093750002,"end":12293.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12293.02971875,"end":12293.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12294.34596875,"end":12295.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12295.274093750002,"end":12295.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12296.72534375,"end":12298.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12298.800968750002,"end":12302.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12303.37409375,"end":12305.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12305.669093750003,"end":12306.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12306.90096875,"end":12306.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12306.95159375,"end":12308.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12306.968468750001,"end":12307.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12307.559093750002,"end":12307.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12308.84159375,"end":12312.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12311.102843750003,"end":12311.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12312.891593750002,"end":12317.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12315.895343750002,"end":12316.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12316.03034375,"end":12316.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12317.903468750003,"end":12319.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12319.70909375,"end":12327.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12325.125968750002,"end":12326.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12327.960968750001,"end":12332.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12330.120968750001,"end":12331.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12332.500343750002,"end":12334.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12333.27659375,"end":12333.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12333.37784375,"end":12333.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12333.394718750002,"end":12333.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12334.710968750001,"end":12335.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12334.761593750001,"end":12334.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12334.79534375,"end":12335.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12335.68971875,"end":12335.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12336.28034375,"end":12342.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12341.190968750001,"end":12341.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12342.456593750001,"end":12345.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12346.101593750001,"end":12346.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12347.805968750003,"end":12349.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12350.387843750003,"end":12351.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12351.83909375,"end":12352.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12353.94846875,"end":12355.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12356.749718750001,"end":12357.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12357.509093750003,"end":12359.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12360.15846875,"end":12362.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12362.90909375,"end":12363.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12365.64284375,"end":12367.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12368.258468750002,"end":12369.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12369.81096875,"end":12370.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12370.992218750001,"end":12371.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12373.000343750002,"end":12373.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12374.45159375,"end":12375.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12376.122218750003,"end":12378.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12378.535343750002,"end":12379.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12379.952843750001,"end":12381.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12382.04534375,"end":12383.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12384.222218750001,"end":12385.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12385.53846875,"end":12386.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12387.597218750001,"end":12389.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12389.706593750001,"end":12390.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12390.719093750002,"end":12391.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12391.69784375,"end":12392.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12394.667843750001,"end":12396.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12396.456593750001,"end":12397.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12397.958468750003,"end":12400.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12402.04221875,"end":12402.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12402.88596875,"end":12404.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12404.82659375,"end":12405.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12406.497218750003,"end":12408.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12409.450343750003,"end":12410.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12411.15471875,"end":12412.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12412.403468750003,"end":12414.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12414.664718750002,"end":12416.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12417.22971875,"end":12417.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12418.84971875,"end":12419.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12420.098468750002,"end":12421.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12423.321593750003,"end":12425.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12426.24096875,"end":12428.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12428.417843750001,"end":12428.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12429.278468750003,"end":12430.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12431.168468750002,"end":12433.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12433.851593750001,"end":12435.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12435.35346875,"end":12436.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12436.56846875,"end":12437.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12438.593468750001,"end":12438.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12439.20096875,"end":12441.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12441.22596875,"end":12442.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12448.515968750002,"end":12450.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12450.96284375,"end":12452.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12452.414093750001,"end":12452.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12452.835968750001,"end":12452.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12452.92034375,"end":12460.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12461.47596875,"end":12463.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12464.42909375,"end":12483.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12482.99159375,"end":12486.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12486.214718750001,"end":12487.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12487.29471875,"end":12487.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12487.919093750003,"end":12487.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12488.762843750003,"end":12490.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12489.87659375,"end":12493.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12493.94346875,"end":12497.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12498.094718750002,"end":12498.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12499.15784375,"end":12502.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12501.58784375,"end":12501.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12502.583468750003,"end":12506.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12502.65096875,"end":12503.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12504.743468750003,"end":12506.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12506.44784375,"end":12510.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12507.54471875,"end":12509.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12511.493468750003,"end":12516.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12515.08784375,"end":12520.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12519.20534375,"end":12528.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12527.507843750001,"end":12534.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12529.634093750003,"end":12532.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12533.532218750002,"end":12535.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12536.907218750002,"end":12541.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12541.800968750002,"end":12544.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12544.956593750001,"end":12545.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12546.57659375,"end":12548.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12549.192218750002,"end":12549.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12550.12034375,"end":12551.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12551.85846875,"end":12553.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12553.79909375,"end":12555.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12556.245968750001,"end":12557.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12557.69721875,"end":12558.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12560.532218750002,"end":12561.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12562.60784375,"end":12563.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12564.09284375,"end":12565.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12565.965968750003,"end":12566.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12566.10096875,"end":12568.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12570.015968750002,"end":12573.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12570.15096875,"end":12570.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12574.15034375,"end":12576.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12576.765968750002,"end":12578.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12579.297218750002,"end":12581.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12581.946593750003,"end":12584.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12584.680343750002,"end":12585.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12585.692843750003,"end":12586.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12586.97534375,"end":12587.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12588.527843750002,"end":12589.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12589.72596875,"end":12590.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12590.72159375,"end":12592.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12593.23596875,"end":12594.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12594.754718750002,"end":12595.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12596.25659375,"end":12596.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12597.31971875,"end":12597.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12599.85096875,"end":12600.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12600.57659375,"end":12601.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12602.26409375,"end":12604.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12605.453468750002,"end":12605.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12606.077843750001,"end":12609.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12609.773468750001,"end":12612.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12613.92471875,"end":12615.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12615.477218750002,"end":12621.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12621.704093750002,"end":12621.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12622.46346875,"end":12624.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12624.960968750001,"end":12627.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12627.914093750001,"end":12629.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12630.023468750001,"end":12631.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12631.812218750001,"end":12632.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12632.993468750003,"end":12634.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12634.512218750002,"end":12635.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12636.520343750002,"end":12637.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12638.039093750001,"end":12638.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12639.49034375,"end":12639.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12640.199093750001,"end":12642.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12643.152218750001,"end":12644.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12645.09284375,"end":12646.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12647.168468750002,"end":12648.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12648.737843750001,"end":12652.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12652.230968750002,"end":12653.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12653.800343750001,"end":12654.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12654.711593750002,"end":12655.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12656.46659375,"end":12657.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12659.149718750003,"end":12660.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12661.208468750003,"end":12662.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12662.406593750002,"end":12662.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12662.96346875,"end":12663.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12663.85784375,"end":12668.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12668.34659375,"end":12669.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12669.730343750001,"end":12671.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12672.312218750001,"end":12674.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12674.45534375,"end":12675.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12676.176593750002,"end":12677.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12678.218468750001,"end":12680.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12681.47534375,"end":12683.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12684.36096875,"end":12685.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12687.077843750001,"end":12689.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12689.71034375,"end":12692.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12693.86159375,"end":12694.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12696.224093750003,"end":12698.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12700.35846875,"end":12702.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12702.61971875,"end":12703.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12704.13846875,"end":12705.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12706.500968750002,"end":12707.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12708.27284375,"end":12710.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12711.023468750001,"end":12711.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12712.52534375,"end":12714.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12714.95534375,"end":12716.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12716.777843750002,"end":12717.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12718.17846875,"end":12720.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12722.24534375,"end":12723.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12724.08471875,"end":12725.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12725.367218750001,"end":12727.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12729.535343750002,"end":12732.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12733.230968750002,"end":12733.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12733.99034375,"end":12735.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12736.58909375,"end":12737.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12737.820968750002,"end":12740.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12742.292843750001,"end":12742.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12743.71034375,"end":12744.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12745.364093750002,"end":12748.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12748.38471875,"end":12749.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12749.97096875,"end":12752.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12753.430343750002,"end":12760.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12760.93971875,"end":12763.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12761.09159375,"end":12761.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12763.977218750002,"end":12766.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12765.192218750002,"end":12766.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12766.99784375,"end":12767.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12767.06534375,"end":12767.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12767.470343750003,"end":12767.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12767.520968750003,"end":12767.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12767.53784375,"end":12768.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12767.554718750001,"end":12775.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12769.52909375,"end":12770.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12771.58784375,"end":12779.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12775.671593750001,"end":12775.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12779.60346875,"end":12780.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12780.362843750001,"end":12781.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12781.915343750003,"end":12783.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12783.99096875,"end":12785.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12785.72909375,"end":12786.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12786.37034375,"end":12789.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12790.11659375,"end":12791.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12791.871593750002,"end":12792.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12792.563468750002,"end":12794.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12794.85846875,"end":12801.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12801.692843750003,"end":12805.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12806.485343750002,"end":12811.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12812.03721875,"end":12813.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12814.062218750001,"end":12815.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12816.20534375,"end":12817.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12817.96034375,"end":12819.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12820.54221875,"end":12823.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12823.157843750003,"end":12826.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12824.102843750003,"end":12824.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12824.69346875,"end":12826.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12826.617218750001,"end":12827.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12827.849093750003,"end":12828.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12828.11909375,"end":12829.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12829.637843750003,"end":12830.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12830.785343750002,"end":12831.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12831.848468750002,"end":12833.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12834.109718750002,"end":12835.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12836.10096875,"end":12837.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12838.21034375,"end":12838.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12839.50971875,"end":12841.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12842.749718750001,"end":12843.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12845.179718750001,"end":12846.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12847.84596875,"end":12848.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12849.465968750003,"end":12850.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12851.17034375,"end":12853.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12853.90409375,"end":12857.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12857.34659375,"end":12859.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12860.40096875,"end":12860.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12860.45159375,"end":12862.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12861.970343750003,"end":12866.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12867.015968750002,"end":12868.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12868.973468750002,"end":12872.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12873.833468750003,"end":12876.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12876.415343750003,"end":12876.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12877.00596875,"end":12879.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12879.891593750002,"end":12881.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12881.24159375,"end":12881.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12881.612843750001,"end":12887.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12881.798468750003,"end":12881.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12882.743468750003,"end":12882.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12882.76034375,"end":12882.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12882.794093750003,"end":12882.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12882.81096875,"end":12883.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12883.722218750001,"end":12883.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12883.75596875,"end":12884.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12885.08909375,"end":12885.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12885.61221875,"end":12886.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12887.063468750002,"end":12887.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12887.114093750002,"end":12887.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12887.164718750002,"end":12887.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12887.417843750001,"end":12887.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12887.62034375,"end":12887.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12887.789093750001,"end":12888.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12888.059093750002,"end":12888.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12888.109718750002,"end":12888.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12889.08846875,"end":12890.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12891.383468750002,"end":12891.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12891.974093750003,"end":12893.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12894.539093750001,"end":12897.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12897.89721875,"end":12898.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12899.669093750003,"end":12899.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12899.78721875,"end":12899.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12899.939093750003,"end":12899.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12899.972843750002,"end":12899.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12899.989718750003,"end":12900.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12900.124718750001,"end":12900.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12900.22596875,"end":12900.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12900.31034375,"end":12902.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12902.031593750002,"end":12903.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12903.044093750003,"end":12904.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12904.07346875,"end":12908.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12909.102218750002,"end":12909.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12910.317218750002,"end":12914.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12916.61159375,"end":12918.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12918.923468750003,"end":12919.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12920.594093750002,"end":12920.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12920.83034375,"end":12922.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12922.770968750003,"end":12923.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12924.087218750003,"end":12926.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12926.85471875,"end":12931.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12929.26784375,"end":12931.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12931.27596875,"end":12932.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12932.507843750001,"end":12936.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12937.08096875,"end":12938.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12938.987843750001,"end":12943.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12944.77596875,"end":12946.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12946.969718750002,"end":12947.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12947.644718750002,"end":12948.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12948.539093750001,"end":12950.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12950.766593750002,"end":12952.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12952.352843750003,"end":12963.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12957.465968750003,"end":12957.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12957.550343750001,"end":12958.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12958.84971875,"end":12958.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12963.304718750001,"end":12964.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12963.524093750002,"end":12966.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12964.97534375,"end":12965.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12965.97096875,"end":12969.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12972.180968750003,"end":12973.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12985.44471875,"end":12989.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12988.735343750002,"end":12991.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12992.34659375,"end":12995.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13000.598468750002,"end":13003.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13004.699093750001,"end":13005.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13005.829718750003,"end":13007.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13008.090968750003,"end":13012.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13012.832843750002,"end":13017.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13018.249718750001,"end":13021.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13022.65409375,"end":13024.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13024.29096875,"end":13028.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13028.67846875,"end":13030.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13031.243468750003,"end":13035.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13035.884093750003,"end":13037.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13037.68971875,"end":13042.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13043.933468750001,"end":13044.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13044.254093750002,"end":13044.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13044.777218750001,"end":13044.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13044.794093750003,"end":13045.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13045.97534375,"end":13052.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13052.03346875,"end":13052.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13053.687218750001,"end":13060.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13060.605968750002,"end":13077.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13077.379718750002,"end":13083.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13083.640343750001,"end":13098.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13098.642218750003,"end":13111.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13112.142218750003,"end":13112.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13112.15909375,"end":13112.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13113.30659375,"end":13118.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13119.26346875,"end":13123.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13123.465343750002,"end":13123.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13123.583468750003,"end":13124.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13124.039093750001,"end":13128.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13129.28721875,"end":13137.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13138.19721875,"end":13153.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13153.570343750001,"end":13153.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13154.059718750003,"end":13167.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13167.492218750001,"end":13169.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13169.922218750002,"end":13174.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13174.96784375,"end":13179.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13179.59159375,"end":13186.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13186.628468750001,"end":13186.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13186.645343750002,"end":13186.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13186.76346875,"end":13186.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13186.93221875,"end":13187.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13187.016593750002,"end":13187.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13187.03346875,"end":13189.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13189.902218750001,"end":13193.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13193.749718750001,"end":13194.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13194.441593750002,"end":13198.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13198.89659375,"end":13199.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13199.90909375,"end":13208.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13209.409718750001,"end":13215.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13216.09221875,"end":13218.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13218.84284375,"end":13226.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13227.145343750002,"end":13231.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13231.532843750003,"end":13239.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13239.61596875,"end":13242.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13243.007843750001,"end":13246.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13247.378468750001,"end":13250.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13251.00659375,"end":13251.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13251.040343750003,"end":13253.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13253.976593750001,"end":13256.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13257.098468750002,"end":13262.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13262.785343750002,"end":13263.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13263.797843750002,"end":13266.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13266.784718750001,"end":13270.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13270.36221875,"end":13272.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13272.235343750002,"end":13273.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13274.15909375,"end":13279.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13279.289093750001,"end":13284.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13284.23346875,"end":13285.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13285.90409375,"end":13287.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13287.96284375,"end":13289.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13289.886593750001,"end":13290.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13290.645968750003,"end":13291.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13291.641593750002,"end":13293.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13294.004093750002,"end":13296.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13296.704093750002,"end":13302.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13302.644093750001,"end":13307.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13308.63471875,"end":13309.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13309.259093750003,"end":13311.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13311.891593750002,"end":13315.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13312.347218750001,"end":13320.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13320.02534375,"end":13320.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13320.83534375,"end":13320.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13321.45971875,"end":13321.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13321.476593750001,"end":13321.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13322.40471875,"end":13332.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13332.411593750003,"end":13333.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13333.727843750003,"end":13336.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13336.96784375,"end":13337.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13337.91284375,"end":13341.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13341.372218750003,"end":13342.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13342.55346875,"end":13342.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13343.70096875,"end":13346.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13346.114093750002,"end":13346.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13347.14346875,"end":13353.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13349.10096875,"end":13349.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13350.180968750003,"end":13350.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13352.83034375,"end":13355.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13356.087218750003,"end":13363.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13363.10721875,"end":13367.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13367.71409375,"end":13370.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13372.70909375,"end":13385.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13385.21346875,"end":13386.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13386.833468750003,"end":13391.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13393.667843750001,"end":13419.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13421.34284375,"end":13425.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13426.000343750002,"end":13426.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13426.067843750003,"end":13430.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13431.332843750002,"end":13435.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13435.905968750001,"end":13436.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13436.918468750002,"end":13452.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13452.46034375,"end":13453.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13454.08034375,"end":13456.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13456.544093750003,"end":13457.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13457.52284375,"end":13459.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13460.594093750002,"end":13465.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13465.774718750003,"end":13467.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13467.63096875,"end":13468.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13469.183468750001,"end":13470.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13470.48284375,"end":13481.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13482.09284375,"end":13488.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13488.977843750003,"end":13490.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13490.918468750002,"end":13497.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13497.297218750002,"end":13498.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13498.579718750003,"end":13504.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13505.144093750001,"end":13508.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13508.839718750001,"end":13509.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13510.29096875,"end":13513.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13513.024718750003,"end":13513.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13513.09221875,"end":13513.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13513.125968750002,"end":13513.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13513.61534375,"end":13513.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13513.969718750002,"end":13521.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13517.648468750001,"end":13517.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13517.68221875,"end":13517.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13521.867218750001,"end":13524.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13525.613468750002,"end":13530.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13530.91221875,"end":13533.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13534.050968750002,"end":13536.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13537.645343750002,"end":13543.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13543.956593750001,"end":13544.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13544.749718750001,"end":13552.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13552.562843750002,"end":13556.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13557.06846875,"end":13563.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13564.004093750002,"end":13565.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13565.809718750003,"end":13569.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13569.84284375,"end":13570.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13571.47971875,"end":13575.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13575.85034375,"end":13580.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13581.43596875,"end":13582.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13583.69721875,"end":13583.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13584.574718750002,"end":13585.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13586.160968750002,"end":13591.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13592.15159375,"end":13594.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13595.45909375,"end":13596.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13596.387218750002,"end":13596.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13597.602218750002,"end":13600.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13601.297843750002,"end":13602.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13602.934718750003,"end":13604.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13604.68971875,"end":13615.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13616.012843750003,"end":13621.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13621.63221875,"end":13622.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13624.703468750002,"end":13626.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13627.386593750001,"end":13634.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13635.53721875,"end":13643.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13643.485343750002,"end":13657.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13657.812218750001,"end":13662.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13663.161593750003,"end":13664.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13664.950343750003,"end":13667.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13667.211593750002,"end":13669.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13669.87784375,"end":13671.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13671.582218750002,"end":13672.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13673.03346875,"end":13675.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13675.41284375,"end":13676.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13677.488468750002,"end":13678.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13678.83846875,"end":13683.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13684.27221875,"end":13690.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13691.140343750001,"end":13695.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13696.18596875,"end":13700.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13701.09659375,"end":13703.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13703.644718750002,"end":13705.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13705.754093750002,"end":13710.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13710.495968750001,"end":13716.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13716.95909375,"end":13721.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13721.751593750003,"end":13722.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13723.017218750003,"end":13726.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13727.45534375,"end":13729.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13730.374718750001,"end":13733.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13733.277218750001,"end":13739.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13740.820343750001,"end":13742.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13742.71034375,"end":13748.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13749.747218750003,"end":13753.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13753.949093750001,"end":13755.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13755.704093750002,"end":13756.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13757.05409375,"end":13759.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13760.024093750002,"end":13766.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13766.706593750001,"end":13771.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13772.055968750003,"end":13775.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13776.797843750002,"end":13777.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13777.911593750003,"end":13778.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13778.87346875,"end":13780.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13780.864718750003,"end":13781.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13781.52284375,"end":13785.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13786.112843750001,"end":13788.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13788.99846875,"end":13789.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13789.909718750001,"end":13791.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13791.512843750003,"end":13792.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13792.10346875,"end":13794.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13794.95534375,"end":13800.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13800.59159375,"end":13803.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13804.50659375,"end":13807.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13807.88159375,"end":13812.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13812.505343750003,"end":13815.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13815.593468750001,"end":13816.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13818.512843750003,"end":13819.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13819.64346875,"end":13824.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13824.874718750001,"end":13828.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13829.211593750002,"end":13830.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13830.780968750001,"end":13833.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13833.91971875,"end":13837.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13837.800968750002,"end":13859.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13859.164718750002,"end":13861.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13861.88159375,"end":13864.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13864.868468750003,"end":13865.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13865.172218750002,"end":13866.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13867.129718750002,"end":13870.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13870.977218750002,"end":13873.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13873.42409375,"end":13874.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13876.47846875,"end":13879.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13879.97159375,"end":13881.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13881.92909375,"end":13883.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13884.409718750001,"end":13891.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13891.379093750002,"end":13891.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13891.395968750003,"end":13891.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13891.41284375,"end":13895.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13895.90159375,"end":13898.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13898.63534375,"end":13901.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13901.504093750002,"end":13908.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13908.895343750002,"end":13909.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13910.07659375,"end":13911.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13912.03409375,"end":13915.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13916.77596875,"end":13922.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13922.63159375,"end":13939.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13939.962218750003,"end":13948.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13949.024093750002,"end":13951.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13951.875968750002,"end":13957.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13958.575343750003,"end":13959.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13960.465343750002,"end":13962.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13963.249718750001,"end":13974.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13974.82596875,"end":13974.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13974.960968750001,"end":13977.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13977.137843750003,"end":13980.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13981.22159375,"end":13985.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13983.70221875,"end":13983.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13983.719093750002,"end":13985.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13985.64284375,"end":13985.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13985.659718750001,"end":13987.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13985.777843750002,"end":13985.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13987.313468750002,"end":13992.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14006.196593750003,"end":14008.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14009.132843750001,"end":14010.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14015.54534375,"end":14016.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14016.051593750002,"end":14016.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14016.06846875,"end":14016.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14016.08534375,"end":14016.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14016.28784375,"end":14031.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14032.184093750002,"end":14040.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14040.53721875,"end":14044.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14044.87409375,"end":14046.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14047.23659375,"end":14048.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14048.890343750001,"end":14050.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14051.117843750002,"end":14057.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14057.88471875,"end":14064.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14064.769718750002,"end":14066.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14067.63846875,"end":14071.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14071.840343750002,"end":14073.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14073.44346875,"end":14075.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14075.417843750001,"end":14080.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14080.817843750003,"end":14106.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14106.585968750001,"end":14121.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14122.785968750002,"end":14130.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14130.750968750002,"end":14138.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14139.610343750002,"end":14140.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14140.825343750003,"end":14142.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14142.63096875,"end":14147.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14147.91284375,"end":14157.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14158.054718750001,"end":14180.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14181.409718750001,"end":14205.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14205.96284375,"end":14208.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14208.831593750001,"end":14210.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14211.329093750002,"end":14213.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14213.72534375,"end":14219.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14220.42471875,"end":14240.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14240.55659375,"end":14253.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14254.07346875,"end":14254.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14255.085968750001,"end":14259.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14259.76034375,"end":14261.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14261.987843750001,"end":14266.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14266.29096875,"end":14274.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14274.762218750002,"end":14290.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14290.77659375,"end":14296.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14297.08784375,"end":14313.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14313.675968750002,"end":14319.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14320.105343750001,"end":14325.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14325.758468750002,"end":14327.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14328.239093750002,"end":14331.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14332.17096875,"end":14333.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14333.976593750001,"end":14343.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14344.08471875,"end":14353.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14353.66971875,"end":14354.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14355.610343750002,"end":14357.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14357.652218750001,"end":14365.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14367.034718750001,"end":14371.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14371.590968750003,"end":14384.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14377.159718750001,"end":14378.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14384.922218750002,"end":14390.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14390.71034375,"end":14398.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14398.624718750001,"end":14401.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14401.155968750001,"end":14402.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14401.915343750003,"end":14403.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14404.649093750002,"end":14406.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14406.589718750001,"end":14407.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14408.00721875,"end":14411.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14411.618468750003,"end":14413.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14413.49159375,"end":14415.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14415.65159375,"end":14417.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14417.69346875,"end":14418.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14419.735343750002,"end":14421.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14421.92909375,"end":14423.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14424.12284375,"end":14425.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14426.316593750002,"end":14427.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14428.527218750001,"end":14429.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14430.535343750002,"end":14431.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14432.847218750001,"end":14434.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14434.872218750003,"end":14436.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14436.863468750002,"end":14438.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14439.27659375,"end":14442.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14442.735968750003,"end":14444.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14444.997218750003,"end":14446.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14448.000968750002,"end":14449.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14450.07659375,"end":14451.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14452.202843750001,"end":14453.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14454.784718750001,"end":14456.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14456.97846875,"end":14458.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14459.121593750002,"end":14460.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14461.56846875,"end":14463.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14463.660968750002,"end":14465.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14465.989718750003,"end":14467.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14467.99784375,"end":14470.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14470.512218750002,"end":14477.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14478.24096875,"end":14479.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14479.55721875,"end":14483.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14484.214718750001,"end":14487.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14487.235343750002,"end":14489.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14489.969093750002,"end":14490.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14490.67784375,"end":14494.37346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1958.111,"end":1969.783,"text":"先一個會議delay到報告委員會出席委員12人已足法定人數請舉行宣布開會好那我們現在開始開會請進行報告事項宣讀上次的議事錄"},{"start":1971.311,"end":1992.436,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年3月13日星期三上午9時至11時53分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃委員國昌等12人列席委員謝委員伊鳳等13人列席官員考試院秘書長劉建新等人"},{"start":1992.996,"end":2020.376,"text":"主席中召集委員嘉賓．報告事項．宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定．而邀請考試院秘書長．考選部部長．權序部部長及公務人員保障及培訓委員會主任委員．列席報告業務概況及立法計劃．並備質詢．本次會由委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢．決定一報告及詢答完畢．二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者．請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會．"},{"start":2021.337,"end":2050.066,"text":"通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢因為我們現在在場的委員不足三位所以待會確定足三位之後我們再行確定請問各位就上不好意思我們現在介紹一下到場的委員以及列席的官員我們到場委員有黃國昌委員"},{"start":2052.835,"end":2075.712,"text":"今天到場的官員有司法院的副秘書長黃玲倫行事廳廳長李踏任法務部部長蔡清祥檢察司司長郭永發法務部調查局副局長吳以功"},{"start":2077.605,"end":2092.79,"text":"法務部連政署署長莊榮松．內政部警政署．行事警察局．行事警察局．局長莊祐偉我們補充介紹現在到場的審發會委員"},{"start":2105.872,"end":2117.099,"text":"人數充足我們就先確認一下會議的議事錄請問會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏的地方沒有那議事錄部分確定"},{"start":2122.09,"end":2141.643,"text":"本次議程是邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就維護偵查程序的順利及真實發現．兼顧人權維護．如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討．"},{"start":2142.824,"end":2144.105,"text":"進行專題報告．並備質詢那我們現在開始進行報告．發言時間5分鐘請司法院黃副秘書長報告"},{"start":2159.778,"end":2186.695,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座各位貴賓大家好首先非常感謝大院就維護偵查程序的順利進行如何落實偵查不公開相關的流程缺失的檢討請讓本院有機會來做個報告在這邊深感榮幸其次關於偵查不公開的這個原則是規定在《刑事訴訟法》的245條第一項跟第三項"},{"start":2188.536,"end":2209.299,"text":"就檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察以及在偵查程序依法執行職務的人除了依照法令跟維護公共利益以及保護合法權益有必要者外那麼因偵查中執行職務之息的事項都不可以對外公開與執行法定職務以外的人那麼"},{"start":2210.721,"end":2230.243,"text":"關於偵查不公開這些細節的規定,法務部跟本院有會選發布了一個偵查不公開作業辦法,裡面有規定所謂的偵查不公開範圍,包含偵查程序以及內容,跟所得的新證都在不公開的這些範圍內"},{"start":2231.684,"end":2259.627,"text":"那如果說有違反這個偵查不公開的規定的話那麼相關權責主管機關應該要追究相關的行政懲戒或刑事責任當然剛才也有跟各位報告行事書法245條也有針對偵查不公開有一些例外的規定那在我們跟行政院會嫌的偵查不公開作業辦法裡面第8條也有規定了說如何算是維護公共利益"},{"start":2260.327,"end":2274.171,"text":"以及保護合法權益另外可以公開的這些規定各位可以看我們的書面報告裡面包含說因為國家安全維護治安有需要或者要防範社會大眾因為錯誤的訊息而被誤導"},{"start":2277.292,"end":2300.982,"text":"有保護社會安全的必要的時候那麼在這必要的範圍內是可以做適度的必要的這些公開當然這些必要的公開還是有它的一定限度包括說不可以把那個犯罪嫌疑人的供述跟自守自白甚至少年跟被害人的這些的姓名資料去公開出來那這個還是有一定的這個限度"},{"start":2302.683,"end":2321.16,"text":"現在關於偵查不公開主要是要維護偵查程序的順利進行那麼關於如何去執行偵查不公開的相關的這些的作業上面的細節是我們應該是由偵查機關以及警政單位他們去實際在執行的那對司法院來講"},{"start":2322.261,"end":2322.561,"text":"好,謝謝,那我們接下來請蔡部長報告"},{"start":2359.239,"end":2383.365,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進今天奉邀來列席貴委員會．就為維持偵查程序的順利進行及真實發現．並兼顧人權維護．如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失的檢討．代表法務部來列席報告．並備質詢．那敬請各位委員指教那前面的部分請參議院"},{"start":2386.159,"end":2402.231,"text":"司法院會同行政院所定偵查不公開作為辦法就各種資訊揭露的情況已有詳細規定得公開的情形依照該辦法第8條案件在偵查中經審酌公共利益的維護"},{"start":2403.212,"end":2420.829,"text":"或合法權益的保護而任有必要時．可以適度公開或揭露偵查程序或偵查內容．包括對於國家安全、社會治安有重大影響．重大災難或其他社會矚目案件．有適度公開說明之必要．"},{"start":2421.73,"end":2448.925,"text":"還有越獄脫逃的人犯或通緝犯經棄貨歸案．還有影響社會大眾生命身體自由財產之安全．有告知民眾注意防範的必要．以及對於社會治安有重大影響的案件．有告知民眾注意防範．或有欲請民眾協助指認的必要．或是欲請社會大眾協助提供偵查．這線索及證物或懸賞記補．"},{"start":2450.686,"end":2470.406,"text":"另外請求社會大眾協助提供證據或資訊至於對於媒體查證、報導、網路社群傳輸的內容與事實不符影響被告等名譽、隱私等重大權益或影響案件的偵查認為有誠心的必要這是可以公開的"},{"start":2472.168,"end":2484.677,"text":"至於不得公開的情形．包括了被告．還有少年或犯罪嫌疑人的具體公訴．是否自首或自白．以及應該繼續實施的偵查方法或計畫．還有勘驗、現場模擬或鑑定的．詳細時程跟計畫．"},{"start":2492.563,"end":2508.861,"text":"有招致、淹滅、偽造、變造證據之餘．被害人、被挾持中、尚未脫險、安全、看慮者．以及偵查中的卷宗、筆錄、影音資料﹐照片、電池記錄或其他重要文件、物品．"},{"start":2509.844,"end":2529.939,"text":"還有被告或犯罪嫌疑人的犯罪前科資料等以及列舉的好幾個包括了犯罪嫌疑人的隱私、被害人跟親屬的隱私跟名譽、少年事件足以辨識其身份等等這個在明文規定都是不得公開的"},{"start":2530.419,"end":2552.421,"text":"不過不得公開還是有例外的情形．比如影音的資料、照片或物品有特別說明或澄清是必要的經機關首長核准以識別化處理後得適度公開不過仍然為維護重大公共利益的情形得不去識別化來處理"},{"start":2554.019,"end":2554.76,"text":"本部積極督導檢察機關落實偵查不公開的相關作為"},{"start":2561.611,"end":2590.061,"text":"本部督導偵查不公開、督導小組的設置要求各檢察機關定期公布偵查不公開、檢討小組的檢討報告及相關查處的情形在108年6月18日我們會中決議了請高檢署設置偵查不公開、督導小組最高檢也設置督導小組督導內亂、外患、妨害、國交等屬於二審管轄案件的偵查不公開"},{"start":2591.061,"end":2608.526,"text":"各檢察機關、調查局還有廉政署都要召開偵查不公開的檢討小組並將檢討報告及相關查處的情形每半年自行對外公布。第二,機關組成的偵查不公開檢討小組上級機關組成偵查不公開督導小組是就當即相關新聞報導加以檢討並有相關懲處來對外說明"},{"start":2623.291,"end":2625.376,"text":"至於高檢署他也曾經召開會議並"},{"start":2628.446,"end":2655.925,"text":"來定名要劃定採訪區及採訪禁制區的一個標準那目前全國檢查機關依辦公處所大小空間規劃以會議室、簡報室、新聞發布室、記者招待室等作為媒體採訪地點都是合乎規定的並採取因地制宜的做法那因個案的需求臨時指定採訪地點也是可以的"},{"start":2656.705,"end":2683.505,"text":"本部在111年6月16日也召開了會議要求各檢察機關應定期公布偵查不公開檢討情形由各地檢署建立初步過濾的機制對於相關的新聞資料予以篩選凡有違反偵查不公開與濾的案件都應該提報會議來討論並統一律定當年度的7月還有次年度的1月"},{"start":2684.245,"end":2710.72,"text":"必須就討論件數、位於偵查不公開作為辦法公開或揭露的件數、查辦的件數、處分的人數等資料公布一次。高檢署確實在111年10月6日也又召開檢討會議由新北、台南、宜蘭地檢署就矚目案件偵查不公開以新聞發布案例與與會代表分享"},{"start":2712.618,"end":2735.896,"text":"再就我們偵查不公開相關流程缺失的檢討報告如下第一 各地檢署廣泛收集媒體報導﹐落實執行偵查不公開檢討小組會議的會議結論第二 為增進發言人的知能本部辦理定期教育訓練第三 為敦促司法警察共同遵守偵查不公開的相關規定本部加強與他機關間的橫向聯繫"},{"start":2739.219,"end":2746.645,"text":"本部未來將針對偵查不公開作為要點設計立稿式的簽呈協助檢察機關及偵查輔助機關作為發布新聞時判斷的參考"},{"start":2751.36,"end":2779.111,"text":"最後結語在偵查程序中為了維護偵查程序的順利進行及真實發現同時為保障被告、犯罪嫌疑人、被害人及其他訴訟關係人的名譽、隱私、安全以確保被告受公平審判的權利落實無罪推定原則本部將持續督導偵查不公開各項檢討措施以符合法律規定及兼顧公共利益的維護以上報告那敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2780.051,"end":2785.024,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我們再請那個內政部警政署警視警察局局長報告"},{"start":2791.685,"end":2813.159,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場的先進、早安、大家好今天應要列席貴委員會代表內政部警政署來做工作報告並備質詢請就本署落實偵查不公開的原則跟相關流程缺失的檢討報告如下請這個指教"},{"start":2815.52,"end":2829.332,"text":"為了落實偵查不公開的作業辦法規範要求本署有訂定警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點供各警察機關來遵循"},{"start":2830.373,"end":2835.077,"text":"規範內容涵蓋偵查機密的維護及防制濫發新聞兩大面向．相關細節請參閱第二部分為督導各警察機關．落實偵查不公開規範．"},{"start":2847.006,"end":2863.744,"text":"本屬刑事警察局組成偵查不公開的督導小組常態性來監看各警察機關偵辦刑案的新聞案件如果發現有違反偵查不公開的情勢會含交該警察局或是該總隊來查處"},{"start":2866.247,"end":2877.999,"text":"統計到108年到現在就是3月15號一共交查涉嫌疑涉違反偵查不公開案件有192件其中查屬實違反規定有102件 懲處維持人士人員有137人"},{"start":2886.671,"end":2913.858,"text":"第三．對於重大的缺失案例本市會利用公開的場合迅速檢討近期臺北市政府應徵辦保姆內同案具體社工上課移送遭媒體拍攝一次遭外界質疑批評本市也會在我們的刑事工作會報提出檢討透過個案的缺失檢討讓各警察機關共同改善避免發生相同的錯誤"},{"start":2914.898,"end":2942.955,"text":"第4本署將持續督促各警察機關．落實偵查不公開作業規定．令透過定期教育訓練．增進警察人員媒體應對之溝通及技巧．與相關案例的檢討．一些研析跟測進．督促同仁與實務上落實執行．以兼顧偵查程序維護．人權保障跟公共利益以上報告請各位委員先進適宜指教謝謝"},{"start":2944.192,"end":2944.373,"text":"好 局長謝謝"},{"start":2946.192,"end":2973.426,"text":"那軍安代表報告完畢那我們現在相關的書面報告我們列入公報的記錄好那我們現在開始進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會的委員詢答時間為5分鐘不得再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2983.584,"end":2984.224,"text":"請部長及副秘書長上台,謝謝"},{"start":3020.672,"end":3048.753,"text":"兩位早我想先請教一下部長你們在今天的書面報告裡面提到說各個地檢署會定期公布偵查不公開檢討小組的檢討報告部長你有看過這個檢討報告嗎?他們公布在網路上你有看過嗎?我有看過你覺得那個檢討報告的內容充實嗎?可以再更充實你知道那個檢討報告長什麼樣子嗎?它是格式化的"},{"start":3050.59,"end":3070.868,"text":"這樣的檢討報告就一張紙涵蓋了過去這四年上面只有數字完全沒有任何內容這個是什麼檢討報告沒有檢討任何事啊上面只有一個數字啊那是他對外公布的一個對啊"},{"start":3072.592,"end":3091.141,"text":"現在要求上網公告的檢討報告就這張紙上面只有數字然後下面應該受查處的人數全部都是0做得非常的好沒有關係阿我現在進入阿對嘛上面上面就這些數字嘛我們現在針對實質的問題開始討論"},{"start":3100.845,"end":3117.054,"text":"在總質詢的時候當我問到吹哨者保護法院長說我現在雖然沒有吹哨者保護法可是各個行政機關他們都各自有吹哨者保護的措施我那時候說沒關係我們接下來會一個部會一個部會看去年6月的時候IMB案"},{"start":3123.803,"end":3150.278,"text":"造成社會非常大的風波我那個時候安排一個秘密證人到北檢去作證他們給秘密證人的承諾是絕對不會去泄露他作證的內容跟他的身份結果我安排去了以後沒有多久進週刊就報導出來了就是他裡面所講的內容那個時候"},{"start":3151.365,"end":3175.979,"text":"我是一個公民我公開的質問要求台北地檢署針對這件事情給社會大眾一個交代但目前為止但目前為止我沒有接到任何的回應沒有接到任何的回應是不是有檢討檢討的結果是什麼因為這件事情絕對不可能推到警察現場只有四個人"},{"start":3177.151,"end":3201.746,"text":"檢察官、書記官、秘密證人、法警這個內容怎麼泄出去的我希望臺北地檢署公開回應結果他們可能覺得一般公民對他們所提出來的質疑他沒有必要回應我看這個檢討報告什麼內容都沒有上面全部都是零部長這樣子算是有做到偵查不公開嗎"},{"start":3203.876,"end":3219.079,"text":"我們是有要求那每個地檢署要就他們相關的報導要收集彙整如果有涉及到違反偵查不公開要檢查你覺得這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開這樣還沒有違反偵查不公開是誰說的是檢察官說的書記官說的沒有其他人知道啦沒有其他人知道啦我看到這個報導以後我非常憤怒啊"},{"start":3233.544,"end":3258.674,"text":"我公開批判希望北檢給大家一個交代結果到目前為止北檢一點澄清都沒有這件事情有在檢討報告裡嗎沒有喔我看出來查辦跟全部這些數字到底指的是什麼案件沒有人知道但是大家只知道結論我們沒有違反偵查不公開第二件事情"},{"start":3263.769,"end":3292.452,"text":"台灣高檢署說有劃定採訪區採訪禁制區的標準我看完了這個報告我只想請問記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室去採訪嗎可以嗎他們有要求在限制的一個地區啊對我上面看了嘛會議室、檢報室、新聞發布室、記者招待室嘛這是你們上面報告寫的內容啊我的問題很具體啊記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室去嗎"},{"start":3293.885,"end":3293.985,"text":"好啦!"},{"start":3322.315,"end":3349.681,"text":"地檢署各自行負責上面這個就是檢察官辦公室啊滿地的卷宗啊全部喔那個是偵查一秘密的事項全部的卷宗都在上面是記者啊把那個檢察官辦公室啊在那邊打卡拍照啊顯示自己很罩很厲害啊這個有沒有違反偵查不公開"},{"start":3352.597,"end":3368.181,"text":"偵查不公開是針對案件的內容至於其他事情的報導是在這個辦法裡面所肯定的你要包庇成這樣喔今天你自己的書面報告上面就有寫喔台灣高等檢察署召開會議喔劃定採訪區還有採訪禁制區喔所以我剛才問你嘛那是指採訪所以認為這不是採訪"},{"start":3376.554,"end":3401.461,"text":"這也許他只是 我不曉得真正的實情啦但是不能只看這個照片就推定都是在採訪而且違反了這個案例你覺得這個記者可以走到檢察官辦公室裡面去做什麼去喝茶喔你包庇成這個樣子喔這不叫包庇 在座很多的記者這樣認為是包庇嗎還是記者不能跟檢察官有一些溝通交往嗎"},{"start":3402.914,"end":3413.581,"text":"我什麼時候說記者不可以跟檢察官有溝通交流啊採訪區是你們自己講的喔我現在的問題可以直接到檢察官辦公室去嗎"},{"start":3415.353,"end":3430.918,"text":"可以直接到檢討官辦公室去嗎他如果有登記我今天要找某一位我是什麼事情法警會讓他進去你如果說啦我們有限制啊按照你今天在這邊講的這個東西這個出面報告全部都是廢話怎麼還有採訪區還有採訪禁制區全部都廢了嘛"},{"start":3435.444,"end":3445.707,"text":"全部都廢了根本沒有限制的必要如果連檢察官辦公室都可以這樣登堂入室整個辦公室裡面全部都是券這是哪門偵查不公開沒關係 我們繼續再往下看調查局的高官可以接受偵查對象的招待嗎可不可以我們請調查局來說明"},{"start":3463.181,"end":3488.835,"text":"調查局的高官可以接受偵辦對象的招待嗎已經立案調查了結果立案調查了以後繼續跟這些富商權貴不是只有吃飯還出去打高爾夫球結果等到搜索的時候搜索的結果還要跟跟他一起去打高爾夫球的人報告可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":3491.301,"end":3510.279,"text":"請教是各位報告您講的這個內容齁如果是這樣的話當然是不可以絕對是不可以的絕對是不可以的調查局知道這個調查的內容嘛如果不可以的話但是我跟您報告您講的是台辣的這個案子是那吃飯的這些名單上面齁"},{"start":3512.161,"end":3537.677,"text":"監察院調查的這個報告上面的名單的我們這些同仁那當時的是嘉義縣調查站在偵辦的案子那桃園有沒有參與桃園是在搜索的時候有參與嘛對不對資源部分的搜索好 那個時候桃園市廖處的處長是誰當時是應該是廖處長廖榮旭有沒有跟被偵辦的對象去打高爾夫球"},{"start":3540.15,"end":3558.063,"text":"請你針對問題回答廖榮旭在偵辦的期間有沒有跟偵辦的對象去打高爾夫球他跟對方來往可以看的那個報告看得出來他跟他來往是一段長時間的來往但是他並沒有他當時這些我們的同仁都不是"},{"start":3559.232,"end":3573.523,"text":"加一線的主管都不是加一線的主管而且我們執行的時候執行完了以後桃園去執行的調查官有沒有跟廖榮去報告搜索的結果"},{"start":3575.202,"end":3600.236,"text":"有還是沒有這個部分桃園地檢署這邊也立案就這個部分在做偵查當中那是不是這個部分有違反偵查不公開有洩密或其他的這個不法的狀況我們也正在配合起來有沒有洩密那個是偵查歸刑事偵查啦現在我在挑戰的是調查局到底做了什麼樣的處置啊為什麼我說我在挑戰的是調查"},{"start":3602.159,"end":3608.054,"text":"來我們先看一下公務員年政倫理規範公務員不得參與與其職務有利害關係人的"},{"start":3610.201,"end":3634.851,"text":"引厭應酬嘛但有下列情況之一不在此限來請教一下副局長廖榮旭是符合哪一條但書的規定是我跟委員報告因為這個部分他是因為公務禮儀嗎包含了經濟犯罪的這個案件的本身還有泄密的這個部分兩個案子都在偵查當中等這兩個案子到一個段落之後我們就行政的這個部分一定會來追究責任我分兩個層次啦"},{"start":3636.252,"end":3653.789,"text":"行事偵查歸行事偵查行政懲處歸行政懲處當初司法院那些法官他們接受台南那個富商招待的時候司法院有說我們要等到行事偵查告一個段落我們再來處理嗎有嗎"},{"start":3656.472,"end":3678.703,"text":"標準是這樣嗎?如果連法官標準都不是這樣現在是調查局比較大就對了報告委員其實這個部分我們也在就當天執行搜索的桃園處的參與的相關的同仁我們也在做行政調查我們已經跟當天參與的同仁都已經做了部分查證後續我們都還會繼續在調查什麼時候調查結果會出來我們會盡快來處理盡快是多久"},{"start":3684.887,"end":3696.236,"text":"盡快是多久?我在這邊不敢跟您講一個說我一定來天會做到但是我們一定回去會盡快處理一個月之內會做到嗎?我們盡量兩個月可以嗎?要第二兩年我們會盡快來處理的連一個距離的時間都不敢做這件事情是今天才知道嗎?可以這樣搞喔?拖了多久啦?因為涉及到的都是調查局的高官"},{"start":3714.286,"end":3718.549,"text":"所以辦高關速度很慢不敢動可以這樣搞嗎請副局長回去喔結束這件事情要給社會大眾表達可以嗎可以好 謝謝那 呃 請回好 接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":3758.107,"end":3769.91,"text":"主席我想我們先請司法院副院長跟法務部好那我們請部長跟那個副秘書長上台我先請問黃副秘書長這個我們目前齁我們剛才有這麼多的討論齁但是這個"},{"start":3783.783,"end":3799.257,"text":"我們現在這個有關偵查不公開的它的最高位階的法令就是刑事訴訟法嘛對不對刑事訴訟法第245條是我們司法院主管的這個法令但因此依據這個刑事訴訟法第245條它所授權我們制定的這個偵查不公開作業辦法"},{"start":3812.368,"end":3834.149,"text":"這個也是由我們司法院那會嫌法務部嗎?跟委員報告是由司法院會嫌行政院去發布對,會嫌行政院嘛那行政院應該是由法務部這邊來提供意見那因此我們整個簡單講就是說在我們目前的司法體系裡面有關偵查不公開的部分的主管"},{"start":3835.376,"end":3857.687,"text":"其實是司法院對不對以主管法令來講最高位階的法員是司法院但是事實上事實上他規範的執行單位事實上大部分是由法務部主管對不對所以這是在法令上面我們有這樣問題所以今天我們請這個司法院這個副秘書長來你雖然是主管"},{"start":3858.607,"end":3874.872,"text":"雖然說這個這個法令主管但是事實上對於這一些實際上的執行還是法務部比較清楚了你們這個應該是報告這個所以我就先請副部長你請回所以我接下來跟這個我們蔡部長來做幾個溝通剛才這個這個在質詢的過程中有關這個"},{"start":3882.555,"end":3901.244,"text":"記者進入特定區域部長,我們有關偵查不公開的部分剛才我們司法院副部長講得蠻清楚就是說我們最高位階法律刑事訴訟法接下來我們大概我看我們所有各單位我們相關的這些偵查單位或是偵查輔助單位"},{"start":3905.646,"end":3917.172,"text":"都這個的相關規定基本上就是我們所頒布的這個偵查不公開作業辦法對不對是不是就都是就是依據這個然後各單位再去制定他自己的執行要點"},{"start":3919.945,"end":3941.802,"text":"呃 主要法務部訂定了就是偵查不公開作為辦法嗎對 規範檢察官還有一些輔助的偵查機關不管是刑事做法或是我們剛剛所講的這些規範它事實上它有具體的具體規範的行為主體它有具體規範行為太陽的構成要件 對不對是這些行為主體跟構成要件裡面有沒有包括對於場地的限制"},{"start":3943.028,"end":3967.76,"text":"我們是希望在採訪的時候有限制的地方有沒有包括對於接觸對象的限制啦我說依法令依法令我們就依刑事訴訟法第245條或者依我們整部偵查不公開作業辦法事實上是沒有啦部長事實上我們這個規範他是規範他的行為主體就是偵查機關或者是或者是這個這個輔助偵查機關他的這些相關的這些這些人他的行為態樣就是"},{"start":3970.943,"end":3994.552,"text":"應執行職務而知稀釋事項不可以公開揭露給必要範圍以外的人跟我們說明一下就是說限制的是說他在偵辦的案件對這個案件針對他偵辦的案件而且他在職務中所知道的跟案件無關的不是偵查不公開的誰不可以跟誰談話誰不可以進入什麼區域你們在自己在報告裡面所列的這個所謂"},{"start":3996.953,"end":4011.502,"text":"你們有限制臺灣高檢署召開會議並發函明定劃定採訪區跟採訪機制區這個其實無關這個無關法令上面的構成要件嘛對不對這是你們高檢署的自律就是說"},{"start":4012.162,"end":4040.284,"text":"我為了避免瓜田李下為了避免相關的這些程序因此我做比法令更嚴格的限制我連區域我都有做這樣的限制對不對他事實上不是法律不屬於法令上面的限制嘛對不對對這個作業辦法裡面啊所以簡單講他是關於偵查公開或不公開他是某一種職業太陽跟某一種職業太陽的人他適不適合接觸的問題跟偵查不公開這個法定的要件是沒有關係的對不對"},{"start":4041.769,"end":4063.134,"text":"他要求的是說你在就個案採訪的時候要由發言人來對外說明所以沒有錯嗎 沒有錯嘛 是啊所以他事實上跟這個偵查不公開你記者限制只能在記者室或者是會議室這個規定跟偵查不公開它是一個跟法令的要件沒有關係嘛 對不對是 對"},{"start":4066.058,"end":4092.751,"text":"所以齁我想這個因為這個偵查不公開這個法律其實很簡單他就是刑事重罰245條但是他的接下來下面執行的你們各單位實在是非常的複雜你們自己有制定一個偵查不公開作為辦法那接下來呢我們這個法務部有一個法務部加強所屬檢查調查廉政機關遵守偵查不公開的原則實施方案"},{"start":4094.141,"end":4114.232,"text":"你們這個連政署自己又有法務部連政署辦理刑事案件落實偵查不公開的作業要點警政署又有警政署自己的這個每一個名稱都很長啦警政署又有警政署的警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點"},{"start":4115.85,"end":4138.979,"text":"各式各樣的規定那這些規定大概基本上都是依這個偵查不公開作業辦法來的所以我們來看這個偵查而偵查不公開作業辦法本身的規定其實也相當的繁複他有偵查不公開是大原則但是他有一些例外規定對不對是在我們的這個作業要點的第8條他就是一個例外規定他規定了這個"},{"start":4143.061,"end":4170.482,"text":"7種態樣是可以公開的在偵查偵查不公開是原則但是有7個例外這可以公開大概就是說為了公共維護公共利益的維護合法權益的保障所以你們大概列了什麼重大案件這個逃犯的通緝這個要求民眾的協助等等這樣子7種態樣是可以公開的但是在可以公開的裡面你們第8條又有對於可以公開這個本來已經是例外規定了你們又一個第8條說但是"},{"start":4171.343,"end":4198.654,"text":"如果你要公開的話你又有所限制在第8條裡面限制啦限制你這個這個少年犯罪嫌疑犯具體提供自首或自白啦有關這個申請這個又有限制原則規定例外的可以公開可以公開又有一些要件要排除排除之後又有例外他在這個裡面的第11款他就有說檢取人的這些相關啊這個"},{"start":4199.963,"end":4212.052,"text":"有特別說明必要的時候必須續明書面理由啊經機關首長核准啊以去識別化處理你們又有這些所以他是一個原則例外例外排除排除之後再限制"},{"start":4214.398,"end":4231.087,"text":"本身．確實有一點複雜本身就很複雜接下來你們讓各單位接下來你們就由偵查不公開你們就要求各單位要做這個必要的檢討、督導及改善所以在作業要點裡面第11條你們就直接要求說偵查機關或偵查輔助機關首長應該要指定機關有關人員3人至5人組成偵查不公開的檢討小組"},{"start":4240.319,"end":4260.621,"text":"另外你們又有這個第二款的部分又有偵查不公開的督導小組有檢討小組又有督導小組我在這邊請問部長齁這個第11條所規定的偵查機關及偵查輔助機關的機關首長要指定的這個檢討小組到什麼層級法務部自己本身有沒有"},{"start":4261.884,"end":4277.656,"text":"毫不我們在檢察司他是負責督導全國的相關檢察機關 那個真正就個案的檢討的話 不是就個案我是說就是每一個報導出來有沒有違反偵查不公開 第11條齁包括這督導小組偵查機關跟偵查輔助機關應他不是得喔 應應指定該機關有關人員3至5人組成偵查不公開檢討小組"},{"start":4291.397,"end":4295.605,"text":"除非當即沒有新聞就免召開這個規定在裡面要不然"},{"start":4296.892,"end":4323.116,"text":"你們這些機關依這個作業要點都要成立檢討小組都有成立?都有成立是要什麼層級?各...從你們...從法務部本身到各...到...最高檢也有高檢也有地檢也有調查局調查局也有政風市...欸...聯政署也有聯政署也有然後警察...警察機關...刑事警察局這個...我不曉得有沒有...應該也有吧請刑事警察局我們周...周...周...周警察"},{"start":4331.144,"end":4342.818,"text":"我們警察單位的這個所謂定期檢討小組我們到什麼層級?我們自己各縣的各縣市警察局到各分局嗎?"},{"start":4344.595,"end":4350.261,"text":"整個警政署的狀況呢?各縣市警察局都有類似的組織到各縣市警察局下面的分局有沒有?分局就是警察局"},{"start":4364.376,"end":4383.61,"text":"所以部長你們在這個要件裡面偵查機關及偵查輔助機關這個定義這個層級到底要到哪一個層級要成立檢討小組我們這個不是很清楚但這個沒有關係更重要的是剛剛其實黃委員剛剛有提到稍微提到了我們來檢視全台灣你們地檢署所公開的這個偵查不公開檢討跟查處辦法這個我列出這個表你這個"},{"start":4390.239,"end":4394.281,"text":"檢討件數公布總共檢討7311件最後處分人數7000多件的處分人數最後是15個人這個調查時間是從108年一直到112年12月各地檢數這我以各地檢數為例檢討了7000多件7000多件案件"},{"start":4417.574,"end":4420.198,"text":"你這個案件裡面成立的總共是367件367件案件裡面牽涉到懲處的才15個人15個人而已"},{"start":4429.755,"end":4458.269,"text":"部長這個是為什麼怎麼會有這種情況我説明一下檢討件數是各地他收集所有報道的內容也許他是各種方式的報道只要跟案件有關他就來然後裡面有可能涉及到不是可能他已經結案了就是說經過初步的會選篩選、臨選以後過濾以後才找出366件來檢討第二欄就是就是你們已經確定你們是未依偵查不公開作業辦法"},{"start":4459.659,"end":4464.267,"text":"而公開或揭露的案件就300多件367件367件每一件是不只一個人啊對不對367件案件在最後懲處的只有15個人"},{"start":4472.895,"end":4501.821,"text":"部長為什麼會這樣當然他每一個狀況不一樣各地他的報導或是說各地他的小組檢討以後但是確實有檢討啦如果要再加強或是要再部長我跟你講時間已經到了不佔時間啦但是我跟你講你們這樣的統計是有問題的啦因為事實上我們掌握我一向很不喜歡談個案但是我們談看到個案就已經他連司法判決都已經判決他應該要降級改序"},{"start":4503.087,"end":4518.561,"text":"在20212011年發生的這個臺南的調查員的慧選案件裡面已經他最後被司法判決違反偵查不公開被判決應該要降級改序結果看你們的統計最後你們統計被處分人數還是零這個請部長你回去聊就你們這種統計方式是有問題的你們這樣連已經確定我至少確定知道有一件你們統計的結果還是零"},{"start":4530.684,"end":4539.007,"text":"請部長你去了解一下你們現在所公布的這些相關的這些檢討報告好不好好我們再了解一下謝謝好謝謝好請回好我們接下來請謝榮介委員發言我請那個部長護秘書長"},{"start":4559.974,"end":4583.268,"text":"麻煩部長、副秘書長上台補充辛苦謝謝委員一張相片有人說很難解說偵查不公開檢察官為了要破案他也 譬如說 媒體民意代表吃兩塊在議會有在說什麼話他也請我去希望可以遞到一些線索"},{"start":4587.455,"end":4603.372,"text":"阿所以我去的時候 滾珠遍野嘛 我說要去 我就公公就說 你要問的我給你理解有的問題是這樣嘛 你要問我的消息 你也要繞一些消息給我有時候在赤道 這有一個灰色地帶啦"},{"start":4605.058,"end":4628.559,"text":"所以我們要靠機關跟這個審判的人主律、自律很重要自律很重要,我的機關也要給你看清楚,對不對有的人覺得這是機關的自律很重要,我請教我們現在的武器都行,應該要終身監禁"},{"start":4632.712,"end":4646.959,"text":"委員報告齁那無期徒刑法定刑當然是宣判刑但是實際上面會有那個假釋執行過一段時間就是法律的無期徒刑無期徒刑一定要過啊無期徒刑不是他的看法那是因為我們的法律所以無期徒刑不是一定要過無期徒刑"},{"start":4661.129,"end":4664.193,"text":"為什麼現在變成要給他一天25天後一天25天後我們給他報加息 加息的期間我請問你 他可以再反罪嗎"},{"start":4674.013,"end":4701.291,"text":"跟委員報告報告那如果說隔著時間還犯罪就可能會撤銷假釋嘛還繼續去執行去執行要關多久啊本來就是他的纏刑說二十幾天嘛但是最近那幾天我們大法官大法官有一個好解釋嘛就是說不能一直一直一直又執行25天啦要區分情形啦這是大法官最新的這個解釋"},{"start":4703.352,"end":4706.174,"text":"上禮拜五,大法官是大恐龍嗎?你不覺得你輸了,他發官去我們賣這個恐龍,跟他們都有關嗎?啊?憑什麼,你以為他還要再煩,煩什麼罪,還要看他幾天?是大法官在等的你?你不覺得他有錢沒問題,噴他在發官嗎?你不覺得這樣嗎?"},{"start":4733.441,"end":4739.707,"text":"跟委員報告 這樣啦齁 他說如果是判五宗 判四宗 反正還在管十宗啦 他再犯的罪啦 啊如果有機倒行勒 我問你 有機倒行 加息啦 判二十宗 管十宗加息處理 他如果再犯要管幾宗"},{"start":4757.756,"end":4766.639,"text":"應該是就出那個慘刑嘛是要放行 行的一份一二十八宗啦齁要關十四宗回去啦再還啦 要回來關幾宗如果放二十八宗 還已經執行十四宗已經執行十四宗 出那個 出那個當然是十幾宗嘛要回來關十四宗嘛 對不對啊無期徒刑啦 加息處理"},{"start":4787.26,"end":4788.601,"text":"還三人破四檔了還要回來關十檔了啊這個人有機奪行加速處理還傷害破七個月還要回來關十四檔了我說這樣有不對嗎"},{"start":4805.146,"end":4813.109,"text":"現在有期徒刑,並沒有處理到有期徒刑的部分,他也是說...為什麼...為什麼他...武器奪行這樣叫危險?如果這樣武器奪行加赤處理,這裡為什麼不危險?"},{"start":4827.793,"end":4829.633,"text":"這是大法跟委員報告這是大法官憲法的解釋權"},{"start":4858.168,"end":4862.278,"text":"他解釋前,如果這樣分析再修法律使用,就是立法社會勿論的跳起來啦"},{"start":4869.397,"end":4878.824,"text":"啊你白痴還在想一條立法委員想一條說無期徒刑都不能加薪啊沒加薪就沒危險的問題啊嘛,是不是這樣?現在所變要這樣嗎?因為那個事先不事先,不是我們司法行政能夠能夠解、能夠說明的啊就是這樣嘛,就是沒加薪就沒危險啦嘛,有加薪才有危險嘛但是我現在的立場是這樣啊,這樣看法啦對不對?"},{"start":4898.963,"end":4925.874,"text":"他還有去研究說無期徒刑啦齁他再犯多多少你可不可以知道不再犯你可能不知道我們司法院本身是沒同意的你不知道啊部長你可不可以理解這部份應該是你們的部份啦齁再犯多啦無期徒刑加席處理的再犯多多少你們台法官應該你本來就是要去調查去了解嘛啊再犯的人都花什麼錢"},{"start":4927.196,"end":4933.418,"text":"對不對啊你覺得為什麼反五黨議員要關十黨為什麼不是關九黨不是關十二黨不是關十三黨為什麼關十黨他說了算是這樣嗎"},{"start":4944.127,"end":4958.42,"text":"公園報告,因為大法官只是針對這個無期徒刑的部分,其他部分並不在這個解釋範圍我剛才在跟你說的,關於10年不是關於9年、10年、12年就是無期徒刑啊但是我國外國安說的啊為什麼是10年,不是8年、10年、9年、13年、12年"},{"start":4966.698,"end":4983.403,"text":"大法官是說那到底要怎麼去去的比例是要由那個相關的單位去...大法官說這樣啦齁兩年以內啦,好多年了他有說呢,兩年啊如果沒有你這個委員現在才所有都要放出來這樣他還要說兩年啊齁兩年來啊啊如果這樣要修緩啦齁修緩他你是不是要匯錢到"},{"start":4999.424,"end":5022.554,"text":"委員報告 因為這個刑法執行這部分可能是要法務部也依照這個大法官的這個當然啦 您就是要回另外行政院來嘛兩檔來嘛 是不是啦委員報告 這部分可能並沒有會嫌的問題吧 因為這個可能是誒 葡萄我們沒修法嗎"},{"start":5024.734,"end":5028.617,"text":"現在憲法法院 副秘書長你這樣說不對欸我們尊重這個尊重憲法法院他現在作為法官嘛 要修法我們就來抄你 抄你我們會再請教所有人的意見秘書長會來欸"},{"start":5050.063,"end":5053.947,"text":"那態度不公平 他們現在還站在那裡罵 對不對 兩天後 四九六八 他們都這樣很多都這樣 你地檢署要請人家 他們現在把你放下了 包括他們的家人 他們還要追人家 誰叫你們把他們按下來"},{"start":5073.599,"end":5099.862,"text":"補充我請教你現在剛才說判母機偷行,感謝有多少人我叫我們董林在查訪嘛感謝這些人就對了,他再犯都犯什麼罪嘛對不對?要理解嘛,不然總來你要怎麼想?對不對?你們這個託解就對了母機偷行,再犯去用撤銷的比率"},{"start":5101.533,"end":5128.839,"text":"這若無統計,大法官這樣說這樣尊順,我本色是不依偎然。那麼無機都行,他到底處理還在煩的都煩了什麼罪?有勤有動啦。不過這要有統計啊,不是都要講究科案。我可以說統計出來給委員,包括他個人...再來,就是說大法官在拜五這條你知道嘛,了解嘛。是。如果這樣你們想法的方向呢?"},{"start":5131.44,"end":5140.429,"text":"當然當初我們在憲法法院我們的主張是領維合憲的啦不應該這樣做啦他就跟你講維生啦你聽到嗎所以你說我領維對阿但是他要破壞是這樣嘛沒有啦他這樣分移才可以不講話勒"},{"start":5153.451,"end":5159.373,"text":"齁 你要乖乖的 行 行法 行道 日本人也沒頂 阿台灣我自己頂沒啦 叫我檢討 阿來頂啦 齁 阿 當然 什麼 叫你檢討 阿來頂 也要兩年來 給我們 沒咧 要很清楚咧"},{"start":5171.84,"end":5179.526,"text":"五年以下幾十年呢?五年以下幾十年呢?幾年都講得很清楚呢?但我講的是什麼呢?你不覺得很難看?你有感覺被人嚇到嗎?嚇到就對了啦!不要說那麼嚇人啦!當然我們有表達我們的立場嘛!我們的看法嘛!啊採不採納當然最好的決定是我們尊重嘛!我真的要跟你請教說你對私刑、執行的立場啦!就是說"},{"start":5202.125,"end":5207.872,"text":"施行的規定是在刑法本來就是刑法的主觀機關如果因為施行而違憲這樣違什麼規定長時間幾十年都沒有修法"},{"start":5220.074,"end":5232.058,"text":"所以法務部的立場就是說 法律規定要判施行 啊 決定了要進行 我們就照法律的規定來做嘛啊你認為施行是違憲 還是合憲啊但是我們現在的立場就是 違法進行嘛所以你認為他是合憲的嘛 他沒有違憲你不可以去執行 啊如果這樣四月二三"},{"start":5244.946,"end":5261.694,"text":"辯論的時候,我剛剛跟你請教說,你要派什麼人去,那個人知道你要派去參與辯論這個人,他知道,本身的人知道代表機關的當然我知道,是我們機關我們派他知道,董事你也知道,要去的人也知道去的人當然也知道,這是我們的...他知道就對了,這樣你們才會...他捍衛你們的立場當然我們要表達我們的立場,跟我們的看法"},{"start":5274.195,"end":5299.733,"text":"合憲的看法,合憲的立場?對,對不然你今天是大家都在看?是啊所以你是反被匯度施行?這是未來怎麼樣?現在啦,現在啦現在我當然照法律的規定啊我們要再執行一下?要不然那要看這個每個案件,他的救濟程序你說他都要救濟啊,你們說他就救濟就不用執行法律上還要有,當然要跟他執行就執行嘛"},{"start":5303.226,"end":5305.227,"text":"好 謝謝請回那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5343.239,"end":5368.051,"text":"謝謝召委,有請我們法務部蔡部長還有我們內政部警政署,行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長請連政署署長好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的官員,大家早"},{"start":5369.892,"end":5397.857,"text":"那個召委我給你建議啦齁 領主啊 那個謝榮傑在接訊齁 那個本郎仙 布袋依依 咱的官員 大家揭一聲 讓人家聾 這樣會出名 你知不知道齁 今天談這個 偵查不公開齁 本席倒這樣認為啦 沒有去談個案的話齁 不對 我們只知道講一下原理原則齁 實在意義沒大啦 這個本來 哪一些到底要公開 哪一些到底不公開"},{"start":5399.429,"end":5427.278,"text":"這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常講的主體不中立議就差不多"},{"start":5428.587,"end":5441.825,"text":"什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!"},{"start":5443.064,"end":5463.016,"text":"行政部門我是說行政機關不是偵查機關行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束這個部分就要受到約束那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後"},{"start":5469.622,"end":5484.459,"text":"無罪推定嘛有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢因為社會矚目啊尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候到最後搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊"},{"start":5488.629,"end":5498.915,"text":"可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦"},{"start":5510.688,"end":5511.369,"text":"常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論"},{"start":5522.362,"end":5534.227,"text":"有時候你高興有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做那樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情"},{"start":5547.077,"end":5563.143,"text":"我們也知道說偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據所以我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉"},{"start":5576.294,"end":5583.859,"text":"最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說 喔 怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦"},{"start":5606.638,"end":5620.892,"text":"所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有資的權利這個拿捏有時候你去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的就是放獨家"},{"start":5624.614,"end":5632.602,"text":"這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討"},{"start":5640.856,"end":5658.189,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我看你公布的西部規定就那麼多有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化"},{"start":5667.284,"end":5679.79,"text":"每天想要補啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連起訴都不起訴的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊"},{"start":5681.042,"end":5695.675,"text":"我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不然你就給大家這個媒體10天在這裡你都給他"},{"start":5710.353,"end":5725.843,"text":"你要適度的公開你就針對這些人全部去公開你只要放獨家的心態我從我二三十年前開始當律師我都覺得這種放獨家的心態對當事人有時候事後造成"},{"start":5727.298,"end":5752.068,"text":"不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已也不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛"},{"start":5754.309,"end":5757.57,"text":"有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安"},{"start":5781.977,"end":5784.619,"text":"都不會說怎樣社工這傢伙都會說怎樣我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開啦我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題啦可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用"},{"start":5807.347,"end":5811.15,"text":"相關要一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人來趕走"},{"start":5825.956,"end":5830.457,"text":"一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星"},{"start":5850.922,"end":5868.255,"text":"因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到"},{"start":5869.602,"end":5890.895,"text":"那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法院判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人"},{"start":5894.977,"end":5907.742,"text":"所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的"},{"start":5908.642,"end":5923.66,"text":"可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎"},{"start":5924.941,"end":5944.346,"text":"不能給的就每一家都不要給啦!能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都總有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦!"},{"start":5946.747,"end":5948.508,"text":"法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們"},{"start":5975.745,"end":5977.206,"text":"改進啦 這個真的是要改進啦 我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分"},{"start":5996.9,"end":6017.956,"text":"所有的司法人員應該都知道啦那只是說為了讓社會大眾適度的有值得一個權利或者整個公眾利益的這個大家也知道是可以的但是如果可以不可能只有一家可以其他不可以這個不好我是覺得這個要不好這個到最後都會產生很多的一個紛爭出來啦那剛剛你提到的部分就是說檢察官"},{"start":6021.002,"end":6047.128,"text":"甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年喔前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬住民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些喔這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去"},{"start":6049.088,"end":6066.469,"text":"那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是有哪一些在節目也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣會違反?我這個這樣很具體啊"},{"start":6071.077,"end":6091.402,"text":"當然偵查當中我們有需要去瞭解說這個人的個資我們會行文或是說我們有一個特別的管道去瞭解都是依法的那如果在偵查當中這些資料是不應該對外洩漏的但是內政部就不是偵查主體這時候呢"},{"start":6094.954,"end":6110.424,"text":"所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開"},{"start":6111.687,"end":6132.003,"text":"不要說他自己內部要去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷"},{"start":6133.544,"end":6151.269,"text":"防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法"},{"start":6151.989,"end":6158.756,"text":"如果兩年內再犯的話 被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話 會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件"},{"start":6171.73,"end":6172.07,"text":"但是我舉個例子"},{"start":6192.509,"end":6196.07,"text":"鼓勵韓國的直播媒臺灣全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤、尾隨、未有粉絲去報警、把他帶回家最後跟騷法規定書面告誡但是呢"},{"start":6208.069,"end":6229.357,"text":"我們的書面告誡依然保令依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右,假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯"},{"start":6231.567,"end":6239.457,"text":"啊 申請保護令以後 核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全"},{"start":6241.645,"end":6261.497,"text":"報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面他能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達"},{"start":6262.518,"end":6273.508,"text":"一半 超過一半這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的這段時間裡面 要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦 未雨綢繆啦"},{"start":6277.967,"end":6304.975,"text":"所以我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔3年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方"},{"start":6305.635,"end":6312.346,"text":"好好規劃好不好局長OK好謝謝委員好謝謝那請回好接下來我們請羅志強委員"},{"start":6331.488,"end":6342.517,"text":"主席 有請部長還有司法部長蔡部長、副秘書長請上台委員好"},{"start":6343.86,"end":6363.981,"text":"想請教部長為什麼我們要有偵查不公開是為了要貫徹地碼保障被告受審判的權利並且避免輿論未審先判嗎對不對這是其中之一當然也要保證未來的偵查能夠更順暢"},{"start":6365.242,"end":6366.263,"text":"那可能涉及到洩密的問題"},{"start":6387.708,"end":6389.089,"text":"那我想請教一下到目前為止"},{"start":6413.18,"end":6440.001,"text":"我們法務部我們在我看報告當中有講說每年度7月1日針對我們的偵查不公開的一個檢討情形要來去揭露那到目前為止我們就以去年為例好了請問偵查不公開你們檢討多少件數討論件數多少為依偵查不公開作業辦法公開或揭露之件數及查辦件數來處分人數"},{"start":6442.059,"end":6469.198,"text":"每半年要公布一次的我現在是112年的下半年我們總共檢討了1672件那請問多少件大概可有違反之餘的有94件那查辦了有50件那結果如何現在還沒有出來結果如何沒有出來啊一年啊不是半年半年是到12月底我講的是我講的是那從我們從開始"},{"start":6471.516,"end":6497.062,"text":"檢討偵查不公開我剛剛看我們審判會委員講啊7000件367件成立15個人那他是從108年啊好 那我就從108年開始算好 那我委員需要資料我會再提供那我想請問那處分15人是什麼身份就是偵查不公開還是警察都有都有 多少檢察官"},{"start":6498.276,"end":6527.265,"text":"呃 我現在手邊沒有資料 我們了解以後跟委員說明我要特別講 就今天您的報告當中齁您的檢討裡面也完全沒有附加任何的數字上來那問到所有東西你都是要回去提供給我我也希望你那我再想請教你下一個問題喔剛剛我們已經談論到了今天違反偵查不公開是有刑事責任的對不對有可能啦 要看整個案情的如何這次有出去嗎 出去對不對"},{"start":6530.911,"end":6550.208,"text":"我想請教您到現在為止照省委員講7000件的討論367件的成立我想請問您最後我們臺北地檢署我們的檢察官、檢察機關起訴案件有多少按照所謂的刑法132條"},{"start":6552.458,"end":6580.478,"text":"起訴案件多少我要來瞭解看看瞭解多少能不能請我們的這個我覺得法務部部長你應該要瞭解吧如果你檢察官有人因此被起訴你總會知道吧當然因為各地每一個他的數字不同嘛我們還要經過統計我直接告訴部長啦你們現在所有行政懲處基本上積極警告積極申戒你覺得真的有約束力嗎"},{"start":6582.421,"end":6609.591,"text":"還是有啊有約束力道德約束力啦不會啦道德約束力我們常常也辦教育嘛一定把一些狀況也要剛剛您在那個備詢當中你剛剛這個我看到我們前面的莊委員在質詢你說你就說欸這個很多這個媒體報導可能這個媒體很厲害也不能怪也不能怪不一定是檢察官啦我分享一個個人的親身經歷我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過"},{"start":6611.365,"end":6639.662,"text":"我還記得傳訊以後檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說羅先生請你出去不要對外來去說任何有關案情的事情我說好沒問題可是不到一個禮拜我在接受詢問的內容全部周刊全部寫出來了我想請問一下我們的部長是我告訴媒體的嗎去告訴一些對我可能不利的一些消息面"},{"start":6640.805,"end":6666.977,"text":"是我告訴媒體的嗎我相信委員應該不會嘛那我只有跟檢察官講啊檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他人那就是問題來了今天我直接告訴大家偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同劇文嘛我們再講一個具體的例子齁你總知道馬總統的那個被起訴的案件嘛 對不對"},{"start":6669.281,"end":6683.931,"text":"我想請問你 你知道這個偵查不公開 如果反映在個案上 監察院曾經對於這個北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告2019年12月18號 有看過這個報告嗎我告訴你報告的內容 我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題"},{"start":6692.725,"end":6710.551,"text":"他認為媒體大幅報導公開照片相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法245條偵查不公開的規定嚴重侵犯人權你覺得監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責你覺得是對的嗎"},{"start":6715.549,"end":6735.149,"text":"檢察院當然有他的職責、他的角度、看法然後我再跟你講調查報告講當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢太昭跟主任檢察官王興建涉洩密後然後北檢就是傳訊、新新聞、自由時報、淨州刊三位撰文記者"},{"start":6735.689,"end":6763.744,"text":"他們都稱檢查的主任檢察官、三中案懲辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料然後調閱通聯記錄．也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九跟多名被告相關人事聯繫就此就認定說檢方沒有洩密就牽結了就這樣就認定了調查報告也認為說你這樣做法實質上即使本來就不會告訴你他的消息來源你問他不會告訴你"},{"start":6765.27,"end":6789.518,"text":"可是就據已就是把它牽結了那我想請問你真的有保障所謂的被告的所謂的偵查不公開的無罪推定的這樣的一個法益嗎有保障嗎就是落實執行的程度如何啦我跟部長說事實上你可以從所有的重大案件包括從楊文科也好 對不對"},{"start":6790.839,"end":6818.94,"text":"非常厲害啊今天梁恩科的案情是誰把他全部揭露的是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的嗎是嗎不是啊不是啊這是誰報導的啊據悉名義的報導那個是陳辦的檢察署他因為外界的質疑或是外界要了解他做適度的說明嘛他做適度的說明請問他是不是在因為媒體報導之後他才出來說明"},{"start":6821.553,"end":6839.36,"text":"是不是有可能媒體去詢問嘛媒體去詢問你就可以說明了就可以開始去帶風向了嗎是這個意思嗎那偵查不公開到底是規範什麼的啊我再講下一個例子啦我講就是今天偵查不公開規範的那個客體是誰規範對象是誰"},{"start":6841.724,"end":6869.511,"text":"就是辦案的人員嘛辦案的人員嘛 對不對那我想請教你臺權會問這個內政部2300萬的我們的全臺灣人民的資料被洩漏結果內政部一推256你知道他的藉口是什麼嗎他不肯交代所有不肯做政府公開透明的訊息他理由藉口是什麼是什麼你知道嗎因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦對啊那我就想請教你"},{"start":6871.502,"end":6893.042,"text":"法務部有沒有要求內政部必須用偵查不公開做理由來不公開他該公開的資訊有沒有是啊 很多案子也是都沒有經過懲辦單位有告訴他你不能公開才不公開他們自己就不想公開就說這個是偵查不公開我覺得非常好我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好"},{"start":6893.885,"end":6919.674,"text":"今天偵查不公開實際上某種程度已經變成行政機關遮掩政府透明資訊甚至敷衍立法院該有的所謂監督的一個藉口了那將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開我覺得真的就直接來問法務部的意見了偵查不公開可不可以作為說今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由就讓法務部來判斷你覺得如何呢"},{"start":6920.816,"end":6944.43,"text":"我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的辦案人員不能對外但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資料就拿台權會執意的這案子來看的話你從哪邊基礎資料基礎資訊難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎不過如果"},{"start":6948.269,"end":6960.983,"text":"行政機關是接受辦案單位去詢問說這部分怎麼樣怎麼樣的情節請他提供資料他也許會認為是因為檢察機關來問或是司法檢察機關來問你剛剛都講過偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員"},{"start":6968.34,"end":6991.105,"text":"行事訴訟法規定辦案人員作業辦法是法律嗎當然在法律之下你應該起碼如果你今天要規範到說行政院行政官員都要偵查不公開的話你就寫到法律裡面去啊不是嗎如果牽涉到刑事案件的偵查當然他也有不公開的責任我要特別講的是什麼"},{"start":6992.423,"end":6998.458,"text":"今天很多的案件現在的行政官員就是一去偵查不公開就全部推給法務部啦推給檢查機關啦"},{"start":7000.083,"end":7024.54,"text":"要看案情的內容如果跟涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能所以我再問你一句話我們在2022年5月9號秦泰昭上任交接典禮的時候他突然說山中案在高等法院審理當中若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決我想請問你秦泰昭檢查總長適合談論個案嗎"},{"start":7031.003,"end":7048.2,"text":"那看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法我要特別講今天整個法制上偵查不公開不管從你處分人數今天有沒有按照刑法所謂的起訴的人數包括你處分的輕重根本就形同劇文"},{"start":7049.261,"end":7068.191,"text":"然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢查機關你高興要洩漏給媒體獨家報的都出來了然後就跟大家講說媒體很厲害因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦那這一點我也希望我們將來也是司法法制委員會要來討論這件事情偵查不公開到底範圍跟界限跟保障的密度跟強度"},{"start":7069.312,"end":7079.22,"text":"不能變成是今天我今天檢查機關我愛公開就公開就獨家了我不愛公開就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7095.237,"end":7107.243,"text":"主席、在黨委員、先進、列協的政府機關所長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請﹐等等﹐螢幕還沒出來﹐等一下﹐等一下螢幕"},{"start":7131.155,"end":7149.977,"text":"好 那有請司法院黃副秘書長及法務部蔡部長和刑事警察局周局長周局長麻煩請上台副秘書長、部長好 還有局長好來 現在請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":7152.37,"end":7171.881,"text":"請問一下偵查不公開的法律依據為何?好像報告當中只有你們有寫是,對,那個刑事處罰245條好,那麼依據此我們還有一個不公開的作業辦法對不對?作業辦法是司法院跟行政院會嫌發布是的,這是院部會嫌發布的那麼請問一下這些哪些事項不得公開?"},{"start":7174.434,"end":7197.684,"text":"根文報告包含說他是偵查程序跟偵查內容跟所得的這個新證那哪些人不能公開?哪些人不能公開?剛剛很多委員都問哪些人必須遵守?當然檢察官、檢察書官還有那個司法警察還有那個辯護人高屍代表人包括司法警察、司法警察官、檢察官、辯護人那而且在作為判決第9條當中自白、證據、卷宗、偵查方式、程序"},{"start":7198.942,"end":7224.684,"text":"企劃甚至設計隱私都不可以公開對不對是好那這些人要遵守那請問一下什麼時候有例外什麼時候可以公開那跟委員報告在那個作業辦法的那個第8條很好把你列出來了對對對那已經那個書面上面有列主要都是主要就是要例外可以公開的就是國家安全社會治安或者偵辦犯罪提醒大眾防範或者是請求社會大眾協助調查證據或者是通緝的人"},{"start":7227.366,"end":7229.849,"text":"請問一下在不久之前一個驚嚇水域的快艇翻覆案那這個似乎他的航跡圖是符合哪一項必須公開的"},{"start":7245.36,"end":7273.305,"text":"因為這也是涉及到整個國家安全社會治安還有大家所矚目所以有一些疑問那可以適度的來對外說明那誰來判斷是由偵辦中的檢調司法檢察官檢察官還是由誰來認定說這個是符合什麼什麼因為你們定了標準誰來認定由檢察官跟其他司法檢察當然的等人員很清楚了"},{"start":7274.025,"end":7284.872,"text":"司法偵辦的主體他可以根據這個得例外公開的項目來判斷是否符合對不對是所以如果說檢察官認為說這個沒有到達那個情況他就可以不公開是不是這樣子"},{"start":7285.775,"end":7303.165,"text":"他會按照整個案情或是外界的一些質疑的需要澄清說明的但是部長顯然這樣的答覆在前不久之前立法院有在野黨委員不滿意他就說他要調閱那請問一下副秘書長立法院調閱權的依據跟範圍是"},{"start":7307.231,"end":7315.46,"text":"立法院可以調閱嗎?有沒有大法官的解釋?4-729那他規定什麼?在偵查中的案件要遵守偵查密碼但什麼時候可以調閱?"},{"start":7326.212,"end":7347.749,"text":"如果沒有涉及到這些偵查秘密偵查中就不得公開偵查終結特定一案有重大職務相關立法院會的行駛職權才能公開部長你同意嗎那所以以剛剛那個案子來講其實如果立法院要行駛調閱權必須等到他偵查完畢然後我們根據我們立法院委員會諮詢行駛需要那麼國會這樣就可以調查偵查中的案件證嗎國會可以調查偵查中的證證嗎"},{"start":7353.709,"end":7375.902,"text":"檢察官要公開示意為是,他可以判斷哪些符合重大社會公義,但是國會要調閱,這個是誰可以來決定,偵查中是不是就不得調閱?那依照那個大法官偵查中的案件的話,這個是調查是要受限是受限的,好,那這很清楚了嘛,司法院副秘書長都講了,那我來問一下部長"},{"start":7376.883,"end":7397.818,"text":"那麼假設啦以剛剛那個案例來講同一個證據目前司法官、司法警察官或者說檢察官在進行偵辦當中結果呢民意機關要調閱這個A機關的B公文是重要證據那民意要調閱B公文會不會影響到偵查如果影響到偵查的話就不應該來對外"},{"start":7402.34,"end":7423.786,"text":"剛剛講到了偵查中是否可以調閱的那如果調閱的話如果這個證據正在進行偵辦中在使用這樣的調閱會不會影響偵查那由檢察官來判斷還是由檢察官判斷嘛所以法務部一向認為有關這個題目檢察官判斷很重要好 那繼續往下問那請問一下如果國會在行使文件調閱權調不到文件那我乾脆找"},{"start":7424.446,"end":7440.86,"text":"在看文件的人我叫檢察官來我叫部長來因為部長看過請問我沒有看過我不會看到的假設嘛假設有些事情在偵辦中的案件有些公務機關有看過但因為偵辦中了嘛檢察官偵辦了嘛公務機關不提供嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":7441.661,"end":7470.504,"text":"那不提供那至少我調你們的長官來問目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權在其他的國家國會聽證權的五個行使到辦到台灣來請問如果按照這個例子如果你的文件我不能調看過文件的人我調來問可以嗎基本上應該不可以的因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權檢察官如果認為這個是影響到他後續的偵查那如果他不講他說他可不可以實施檢討權"},{"start":7472.858,"end":7473.518,"text":"來 如果被告質詢原告"},{"start":7501.676,"end":7524.193,"text":"那麼要迴避嗎有些司法案件如果說民意代表本身為本案的被告就偵查不公開議題來諮詢檢調司法機關您覺得有沒有迴避的必要我想我們的辦案的檢調他會遵守規定那是誰該迴避是民意代表要迴避還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避"},{"start":7528.086,"end":7556.445,"text":"我想大家都要遵守這個原則不管是當事人或是辦案人員大家都在心中有一把尺所以我之前對於目前國會在行使諮詢權的同時我們要很謹慎的去注意到如果這些事情未來可能發展到行使案件千萬千萬不要被告辯法官好 那所以我們就來看現在有一個笑話就是在一個八尺門的辯護人三位有沒有看過這部電視劇"},{"start":7558.606,"end":7581.627,"text":"有沒有聽過有啦齁在這個電視劇當中呢有一個很有名的對白齁他有一次開庭被告遲到法官就提議說來說笑話比賽檢察官跟律師同意法官就說這個笑話叫做什麼無罪推定這當然是一個諷刺啦檢察官也說偵查不公開是個笑話律師也說律師倫理是個笑話這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的部長你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎"},{"start":7584.095,"end":7602.24,"text":"如果就檢察官的部分我們是要嚴守啦很好就不能把他當作笑話好我們來看一下但現實上呢我請亞部長跟署長來署長齁還記得一個案件嗎有一個很無辜的人啊他說欸現場留6個蛋殼喔這個這個案子大家記憶深刻對不對"},{"start":7603.18,"end":7629.357,"text":"有沒有 結果呢 後來呢 就暴露了這個可能是嫌疑犯然後呢 這個人呢 就說沒想到一早醒來呢 被全國通緝署長 呃 署長有沒有 署長有沒有記得這個案子報告知道這是個烏龍事件你們要查查一個重大的刑案結果呢 不小心 變成一個個人的隱私泄露了部長 你覺得這個事情算不算有違反偵查不公開 造成當事人隱私受損的情況"},{"start":7630.458,"end":7654.257,"text":"如果是在辦案的內容那會影響到偵查那就需要檢討局長你認為這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損這個應該是有但是問題是這個案子本來是在我們內部群組裡面在討論的一個對象並沒有對外公佈但是記者不知道怎麼拿到這個但我們要檢討你們要來囉內部討論被記者公佈你們先檢討記者怎麼拿到的不去檢討是誰洩露出去的"},{"start":7660.302,"end":7686.135,"text":"你們看到這樣的態度嗎?這個我們會,我們自己本身也會檢討好,剛剛的其實還有委員問到了齁就是有一個案子齁,欸這個某個案子齁,某個縣長的案子那麼你們證人的對話,你們證人的對話說,這場搞定了,餐券都用光了有沒有這樣的事件發生?有沒有這樣的事例發生?局長有沒有?不曉得,那法務部檢署有沒有這樣講的那個案子吧?剛剛羅委員解釋的那個案子,這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開?"},{"start":7687.332,"end":7708.118,"text":"如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話當然我們要檢討那如果人有不是你們辦案人員人家有辦法不當取得那你覺得是責任是誰的都有責任啊都有責任很好來我跟你講齁剛剛呢黃國昌委員問了一個黃總要說一個我很同意記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室嗎"},{"start":7710.448,"end":7738.482,"text":"他如果用來賓的身份或是用其他的經過登記那舉他進去沒有說不可以啦局長請你告訴部長你們為了落實偵查不公開的辦法你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點包括什麼包括不得代媒體辦案不得洩露現場模擬不得讓嫌疑犯接受拍攝還要設當適當封鎖區案中要 卷中要保密等等等當事人要掩蔽"},{"start":7739.562,"end":7755.622,"text":"部長 你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法我知道他們有訂辦法阿你們是有訂辦法 有沒有我們也有訂阿你們辦法說什麼 要設發驗人對不對是要劃設禁制區對不對是那如果要求說檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區 你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":7757.753,"end":7770.769,"text":"當然如果他就採訪這樣的行為的時候要受到限制那如果不是採訪是其他的因素來賓來拜訪那我們當然按照規定來做嘛部長你要甚思啊"},{"start":7772.116,"end":7792.256,"text":"今天檢察官他的桌上有很多帶偵辦中的案子今天有媒體的朋友來拜訪他你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把他列為一個為了避免不小心內容外洩應該列為禁制區嗎是 我們有列為禁制區啊檢察官的辦公室是禁制區檢察官的辦公室是禁制區記者可以進去"},{"start":7794.117,"end":7819.665,"text":"記者他如果有經過登記或是說有通知所以請你們好好檢討我們看最後一個就是這也是一個實證例子啦媽媽嘴案無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人生意全毀了那麼我覺得這個今天我們要落實偵查不公開要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整的地方所以請法務部跟警政署因為警政署沒有來我就請到法務部可不可以盤點過去一年內有違反偵查不公開的案例"},{"start":7820.305,"end":7847.164,"text":"可不可以你們盤點一下整理一下到底是哪些樣態如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向比如說可能媒體呢藉由訪客的身份從檢察官辦公室不小心看到如果有這種情況那你們就要慎重的考慮你們的這個偵查不公開相關的場域的保密辦法可以嗎可以先再整好過去一年對不對偵查違反這個案例把它盤點一下好嗎好然後呢三個月提出改進辦法"},{"start":7848.308,"end":7852.171,"text":"待會我們在吳思耀委員詢答完畢之後我們休息5分鐘那接下來我們請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":7885.862,"end":7909.739,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們今天各位列席的我們首長還有我們立委同仁媒體先進大家早安那請主席我們先邀請我們部長好麻煩蔡部長請上台部長好那我想請教一下那個針對剛剛我們"},{"start":7912.082,"end":7938.823,"text":"許多這個立委同仁也有在關心的我們偵查不公開的部分那偵查不公開的原因一來我們是要保護這個案件的相關人讓他們的身份不被暴露出來那也避免輿論未審先判那二來是要確保警察還有我們的這個檢察官的偵查優勢避免打草驚蛇也避免嫌疑人有逃逆或串證滅證的這個情形"},{"start":7941.545,"end":7966.503,"text":"那目的則是要確保我們有一個公平審判然後落實無罪推定的部分但是在偵查不公開作業要點第8條裡面也有列出這個例外得以公開的情形我想請教我們部長有關前一陣子立法院我們有許多這個委員收到這個炸彈的恐嚇信是否也符合"},{"start":7967.524,"end":7978.292,"text":"這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條所說的有適度公開說明之必要如果有的話那目前我們偵辦的進度為何可不可以請部長大概說明一下"},{"start":7980.144,"end":8000.891,"text":"跟委員說明就是偵查不公開行事綜合有很明文的規定但是要怎麼執行我們也透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布了一個作業的辦法那這個辦法裡面就明白的規定說哪些是可以適度的公開那哪些是不能公開"},{"start":8002.071,"end":8020.299,"text":"所以我們大家都要遵守這樣的一個辦法跟規定那事實上委員提到這個如果這個恐嚇炸彈的這樣的信件是社會矚目而且大家關心危及到委員的安全當然可以適度的做說明公開"},{"start":8022.981,"end":8034.366,"text":"那我們有沒有大概現在進度到哪裡因為這個案子是刑事警察局他們受理在偵辦那整個進度他們會比較清楚好 那我們是請局長"},{"start":8039.85,"end":8056.884,"text":"委員好那因為這樣子目前在恐嚇我們立法委員部分因為之前恐嚇很多這種這個交通通道措施的部分那因為我們針對這個部分之前就有查過可能是一個陸生他來台灣這個讀書之後他回到大陸去了"},{"start":8057.364,"end":8077.222,"text":"那他因為之前有受了一些法律的這個約訓然後他認為說他是在這邊有被這個認為說是有一些犯罪的問題那他後來就沒有讀研究所就回去了那回去以後呢因為這個案子就不斷出發生但用語跟他的就是恐嚇的手法都是如出一側"},{"start":8078.383,"end":8092.1,"text":"那所以這一部分為了要安定所有的民心讓大家能夠穩定下來說這個人是在境外來恐嚇所以呢我們不管怎樣發生這些問題那就是我們的真武隊是一個防暴小隊一個小組他會來現場處理這些問題"},{"start":8094.423,"end":8109.505,"text":"那發現這個IP在境外那境內有沒有在聯絡那我們都會做一個偵查但是發現他是一個人單獨在做在放案所以我們就會把這部分讓大家安心的部分就講出來這個人是個大陸人他在大陸的西安市"},{"start":8111.087,"end":8125.183,"text":"局長這就境外對境內部分我們應該他他的這個部分應該是沒有其他的沒有共犯在境內沒有共犯在境內是是是好我也請我們局長針對這部分要去掌握相關的這個騎乘把那個對於我們立委"},{"start":8128.266,"end":8142.273,"text":"所投遞的這個恐惡的這些案件應該有一個比較好的處理沒有問題我們有一個專責大隊對好那局長先先這樣我想請教一下我們那個司法院的我們黃副秘書長"},{"start":8145.916,"end":8167.976,"text":"委員好好副秘長我想請教一下依照我們刑事訴訟法第245條的第三項需負義務的只限這個檢警、辯護人還有其他偵查程序依法執行職務的這些人等那但是在這個現實當中倘若社會發生重大的這個案件的時候"},{"start":8169.065,"end":8195.531,"text":"則是有檢警媒體還有社會大眾的三邊關係三者當中卻只有檢警受制於偵查不公開的原則這副部長您大概這三角關係您能理解嗎如果說其他的這些因為在偵查如果在偵查程序也如果說其他的人都知政府機關的人知道的話他應該還是要還是要去維持這個偵查秘密嘛好"},{"start":8196.511,"end":8208.099,"text":"可是這個其中的這個第四權就是媒體權媒體他常常會主張民眾有知的權利所以我們看到許多媒體會使用這種聳動的標題還有獨家的內幕的方式來呈現這個新聞"},{"start":8213.403,"end":8225.949,"text":"為了就是要帶動這個民眾對於這個議題的一個風向跟輿論那使得我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中有社會的壓力存在也可能迫於這種壓力然後透露一點這個相關的內情來"},{"start":8229.325,"end":8241.374,"text":"作為這個偵辦的這個進度的說明那我想請教這個副秘書長就是雖然媒體在偵查不公開的約束範圍之內那不在媒體不在這個範圍之內"},{"start":8243.564,"end":8257.929,"text":"可是根據這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條第一項的第7款他有提及到說媒體查證的報導與事實不符屬於特定的這個規定有澄清必要在實務上實務的這個工作上應該如何去權衡"},{"start":8263.202,"end":8289.034,"text":"根委員報告依照這一個這個第那個不公開作業辦法第8條的這一個第7款的這一個如果說媒體曾經已經有誤導或這些情形的話那麼檢警相關單位可能在澄清的必要範圍內可以去做一些澄清的這些說明那當然當然基本上來講都有一定的這些限制因為媒體不是在這一個"},{"start":8290.327,"end":8314.746,"text":"那個規定可以懲阻或禁止這個範圍所以不會涉及到這個偵查不公開的部分因為他還是在偵查不公開的範圍但是假設說有必要去做澄清的時候那麼偵查機關才會去做必要的這個說明這是屬於偵查不公開的這個例外那我再請教一下就是說那如果像有網友他如果主張說自己有查證過"},{"start":8316.311,"end":8344.768,"text":"那是否就是難以去成立這個毀謗罪而不需負任何的責任我想跟委員報告這個具體的毀謗的具體個案那我們的實務上面實務上面都有一定最高法院都有一定的這個界限他必須有合理的查證但具體的情形到底什麼情形合理的查證而且確實有確實這個查證而且相當的根據不是說他講說他有查證就可以當然不構成這個要看具體的個案"},{"start":8346.332,"end":8371.787,"text":"實務上面也相當多的這些案例好那我再請教一下我們副秘書長國民法官法這個上路已經滿一週年了那我們看到說國民法官法的實行細則第81條也有明確的規定司法院法務部應共同落實關於偵查不公開的這個規範確保國民參與審判的這個程序希望能夠有一個公正、中立而且客觀"},{"start":8372.948,"end":8385.438,"text":"並且可以維護參與審判國民的這個權利我想請教一下副秘書長這一年來國民法官這個相關的這個案件是否都皆有落實偵查不公開的原則司法院我們這邊有無對此進行檢討"},{"start":8388.818,"end":8402.276,"text":"跟委員報告那國民法官的案件大概都是偵查終結已經起訴了嘛已經起訴如果說還在檢查跟偵查中的話當然偵查偵查不公開我相信相信檢方檢察機關監警機關應該都會遵守那"},{"start":8403.457,"end":8429.709,"text":"那那個但是有可能國民法官已經起訴了但是還有其他的人其他案件還在偵查中那這個當然就是請國民法官要去注意說不能去妨礙到其他案件的偵查偵查不公開是那我們這一部分都有在我們的SOP包含說我們國民法官在開庭的時候審判長跟相關我們的作為過分都有提醒我們的國民法官目前都有在嚴格在遵守"},{"start":8430.094,"end":8448.87,"text":"好 都有掌握當中好 那我想請教一下我們部長部長 那個前面提到有關媒體及大眾在偵查過程所扮演的角色在案件的偵辦過程中我們因為資訊的洩漏使得社會的這些輿論先審未判而"},{"start":8449.43,"end":8478.668,"text":"被公審的人是相當無辜那就像剛剛那個我們宗嘉濱委員也有講到就媽媽嘴案的這就是一個典型的案例當時社會上的輿論捕風捉影未經查證使得無辜的這個咖啡店的老闆被貼上殺人犯的標籤即便事後司法已經還他這個清白可是當事人因為當時被未審先判的這個輿論還有受到嚴重傷害類似的這種公審案件"},{"start":8479.068,"end":8489.494,"text":"也不只一次那我想請問部長就針對像類似的這種偵查被公開而受到傷害的無辜嫌疑人是否能夠依法提出求查"},{"start":8490.781,"end":8511.368,"text":"如果從民事損害賠償的角度當然他可以來提出啦那最後結果如何也是看案件最後的判決所以他要提出一些民事的球場我想在法律上是許可的是許可的啦齁那我們現行的這個刑事補償法僅有對這個冤獄賠償而已啦齁那第6條規定"},{"start":8515.987,"end":8538.799,"text":"依照被羈押的這個天數支付相當的這個金額但是對於這個遭受社會輿論公審而造成這個被害人精神損害甚至影響到他後續人生的這個規劃我們是不是應該也要有一個比較好的一個賠償的機制的規劃才能夠讓我們這些無辜被這個波及的人有一個比較好的賠償"},{"start":8539.781,"end":8566.027,"text":"是 那刑事補償法已經有對於如果被羈押那是冤獄的話已經有一個相當的補償如果覺得不夠當然也可以再檢討或是從民事上再來要求好 那我是請我們法務部這邊是不是針對這部分去做比較好的研議讓我們無辜受害者也有一個比較好的一個球場的管道好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8567.671,"end":8570.373,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長還有部長麻煩部長副秘書長上台委員好"},{"start":8597.696,"end":8620.384,"text":"副秘書長本席要在這裡首先表達偵查不公開已經成為中華民國司法體制上最大的一個笑話本席想了很久司法不公開不只是司法界的笑話"},{"start":8622.745,"end":8647.715,"text":"更是對付國會在野黨最主要的利器叫司法不公開假借司法偵查不公開的名義讓國會很多事情都不能夠了解清楚人民知的權利都沒有辦法在重大事件發生的時候能夠讓立法院能夠調查清楚"},{"start":8649.062,"end":8673.799,"text":"所以我想今天的會議我們不是在鋪一些梗但是本席從剛剛聽到現在已經暗樁都已經開始在部署了針對未來國會改革的聽證權、調查權已經在民事、案事、法務部以後要對抗國會本席覺得偵查不公開這本來就是一個最基本的一個義務"},{"start":8675.39,"end":8699.845,"text":"但是法務部為什麼會做成這個樣子沒有人去相信法務部偵查不公開而司法院一直在睡覺為什麼全國人民都不相信司法這麼高的比例部長剛剛有提到啊108年到現在也都是在您部長任內有多少件"},{"start":8701.618,"end":8706.239,"text":"部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊108年到現在7000多件"},{"start":8732.78,"end":8758.339,"text":"這麼多?還是這麼少?這是收集來的,認為可能報導出來。那個部長,7000多件啊,成案367件,處分15人。這是近親繁殖是嗎?7000多件最後處分15人。為什麼7000多件都會被漏出來,然後最後只處分15人?"},{"start":8760.302,"end":8788.559,"text":"北京在這裡請教請教一下部長偵查不公開然後每一件重大刑案重大的這個調查中的案件都洩漏出來光看一下那個《靖州刊》《靖州刊》現在是法務部的專報是嗎不是法務部的週刊每一份資料直接從那裡查比較快"},{"start":8790.765,"end":8812.763,"text":"本席要在這裡特別請部長您在可能是中華民國史上歷史在位最長的一位部長甚至可能會繼續連任但是我們對司法界我們到底留下了什麼可以讓人民來相信司法本席在這裡請教一下"},{"start":8814.192,"end":8820.218,"text":"到底針對偵查不公開的部分部長在你任內你做了什麼防制的方式有沒有"},{"start":8821.161,"end":8844.395,"text":"有,我們就訂定了這麼很嚴格的規定,很詳細的本來刑事書法只有一個很簡單的條文,就是偵查不公開,這樣子而已但是如何去執行,我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布這種作業辦法那很明確的哪些是可以公開,哪些是例外,或是說哪些是原則,我們都很明確的訂定"},{"start":8845.785,"end":8872.717,"text":"就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打炸打炸結果越打越炸是一樣的意思嗎不是我們都全力以赴啦我們目前所造成的問題是讓人民有信心部長人民要有信心啊每一件案子立法委要問偵查不公開"},{"start":8874.52,"end":8891.55,"text":"然後週刊寫得一清二楚自由時報寫得一清二楚本先生請教一下這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標來把它發布出來來帶風向輿論"},{"start":8894.625,"end":8923.821,"text":"最後就是結論目的就是為審先判是不是法務部不會做這種事情不會做這種事確定確定那本席請教一下在高鴻安的案子裡面這個很精彩很精彩這個週刊報導他有三種手法來乍理第一種"},{"start":8925.896,"end":8951.565,"text":"1.以低報告乍領助理費2.利用抵帳手法輕蹲助理加班費3.按月把立委辦公室相關的費用叫助理們來分攤連三項都列出來在當時大選前如何如圖這三項週刊都有報導"},{"start":8952.881,"end":8954.061,"text":"本席再提醒你一下在當時在偵詢過程"},{"start":8982.901,"end":9010.09,"text":"吃飯時間到了問他要吃什麼樣的便當他說他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒還便當好好吃在哪裡訂的這些通通都出來了在偵查過程中因為到了吃飯時間問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒他表達好不好吃通通報導出來"},{"start":9011.892,"end":9032.085,"text":"這叫偵查不公開嗎幾乎是同步的報道本期再請教楊文科縣長也同樣也是週刊報道說他的租金他的租金競選總部的租金這個廠商有回捐那這樣子的話是不是"},{"start":9033.454,"end":9061.625,"text":"請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表亦或是行政首長有參選過程如果只要跟人家借租借或租競選總部那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何連公開的贊助都不可以是不是變成這個樣子今天我們去租了一個競選總部"},{"start":9063.854,"end":9090.576,"text":"這個總部的業主來對競選的這個時候政治獻金來捐助這樣就觸犯對價哇 這個部長乾脆把它據文法制化好了不能永遠只有一個字新政 什麼叫新政你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫新政這個東西也出來了為什麼金額數字都有了"},{"start":9092.339,"end":9109.066,"text":"現在不是還在偵查中嗎部長是不是還在偵查中為什麼這些資料都有了再過來那個林志廟現場的事更離譜林志廟現場的事更離譜連啊這個說啊這個林志廟現場"},{"start":9122.079,"end":9150.106,"text":"跟特定人有多少錢的往來有多少支票這個還寫獨家然後多少對金額往來然後最後完完全全是一點關係都沒有但是打擊林志標縣長的選情是已經發生了效果部長"},{"start":9151.756,"end":9163.446,"text":"為什麼都是這些縣市長而且都是在大選前部長本希請教您一下到底我們防制的方法是什麼"},{"start":9165.232,"end":9191.427,"text":"請告訴大家我們嚴格的要求一定要遵守這個《刑事訴訟法》的規定還有作業辦法那我們也辦了很多的講習要警察官來瞭解哪些是可以公開哪些不可以公開甚至我們也轉達捂住的偵查機關也要遵守您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法有沒有"},{"start":9195.012,"end":9220.559,"text":"當然我們一再的就是要求嘛好 這樣子啦既然這個是刑事訴訟法245條這裡涉及洩密的問題當然是要查嘛本席請教一下部長是不是而後只要有偵辦重大案件同步任何媒體有相關內容的報導什麼獨家"},{"start":9226.345,"end":9253.463,"text":"什麼知情人士說只要看到有相關的問題相關的報導一出來法務部第一時間就出來否認可不可以說這些報導不是屬實法務部不干預可能各案處理怎麼講不干預七千多件啊對但是我們要求各地檢所以沒有關係我們不能法務部每一個地檢署的案子都來處理第一個大眾矚目的事情"},{"start":9255.512,"end":9282.05,"text":"如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密這樣是不是能夠徹底把這個問題根絕掉報紙一登立刻就查到底誰洩密第二個政府單位先否認先否認才不會為審先判才不會防護兼法官的職務"},{"start":9283.615,"end":9311.975,"text":"已經由法務部在調查就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果把新證告訴全國國人讓法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍所以部長這個事情要怎麼去解決本席跟你分享一下2020大選前總統大選、立委大選前選前四天其實上網都還可以看得到"},{"start":9313.43,"end":9341.324,"text":"本期參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮一大早12個人被調去問裡面支持我的不到一半還有支持蕭美琴女士還有根本沒有管事的人當天問到晚上9點多一離開9點半蕭美琴女士就在臉書貼說某區一位候選人被調查預備會選"},{"start":9344.293,"end":9369.023,"text":"臉書就貼出來 現在都還查得到那謝謝法務部啊那裡面支持我的人不到一半還有支持蕭女士的還有根本不管事的結果那些人從早上6點鐘被直接敲碗把人帶走問到晚上9點結果那12個人非常非常的生氣回去全部都支持我"},{"start":9373.139,"end":9402.088,"text":"謝謝法務部結果本席在於李政22個票統全部都贏我想今天這種帶風向的辦案部長不能再做這種事情本席剛剛已經建議第一時間第一時間部裡面要先否認相關的報導讓他們不再有公信力第二個立刻啟動調查到底誰洩密如果部長有這樣的決心"},{"start":9403.237,"end":9431.369,"text":"我們相信大家就會相信法務部我們再看一下最後部長您上次一直很好奇說到底誰講的我現在跟您跟您建議一下台灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查詢問百姓民眾檢察官大案的時候會不會受到政治的影響看一下結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":9434.491,"end":9445.596,"text":"85%的人相信會影響只有9%的人認為不會影響部長我們真的本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果"},{"start":9447.177,"end":9474.928,"text":"就不會再有所謂的獨家內幕報導就不會有是委員的建議如果他真的有涉及到洩漏或是違反偵查不公開我們馬上啟動要求調查第一時間報紙出來立刻就啟動調查啟動調查以後誰還會再洩密負責的他的上級單位等等來預法調查立刻調查就不會再有人洩密可以嗎"},{"start":9475.828,"end":9476.728,"text":"我們下一位請吳思耀委員巡檔"},{"start":9507.013,"end":9510.88,"text":"主席、蔡部長、司法院副秘書長"},{"start":9520.578,"end":9543.309,"text":"好 大家早安我今天講話會氣比較虛一點因為剛剛在另外一個委員會居然被委員暴力相向所以有一點氣虛這樣但我還是會非常努力的來完成我今天的專業問政跟監督的工作好 偵查不公開偵查被公開我們好好來探討這個問題喔下一頁"},{"start":9546.294,"end":9562.826,"text":"但是我想今天是318事件的10週年318學運的10週年這台灣歷史上民主史上以公民不服從為由那發生的一個"},{"start":9563.925,"end":9581.327,"text":"最大也最為到今天都還深受民主影響的社會運動的10週年318的10週年帶給我們從政者什麼樣子的教訓也就是告訴我們從政者國家的權利再大"},{"start":9582.27,"end":9596.752,"text":"也不能夠傷害犧牲國家的前途不能夠去輕忽公民的力量我想這是對於政治工作者318事件10週年給我們很大的反饋跟檢討"},{"start":9598.394,"end":9622.842,"text":"那今天站在我面前的是我們的法務機關318的10週年在司法面我們還是有很多值得探討的部分檢視的部分部長你知道嗎在318事件當中學運事件當中國家以侵入駐居毀損罪等等妨礙公務等等對人民尤其是學生為主提告的案件有多少"},{"start":9629.701,"end":9642.765,"text":"當時的行政院院長江怡化對126名學生、平民提起了這些的告訴所以他也成為台灣司法史上規模最大的國家對人民提告的司法案件"},{"start":9644.229,"end":9654.175,"text":"那我再進一步問部長你知道嗎人民也以自訴的方式向警察來追訴暴力犯罪要求國賠你知道有多少案件嗎也有這種案件"},{"start":9656.604,"end":9683.121,"text":"加起來大概也有將近100件所以換言之我剛剛為什麼說318學運是台灣司法史上規模最大的司法案件就是人民跟國家之間因為前前後後有211人次成為被告或者是原告所以呢平民百姓要對付國家被迫跟國家對付公帑很多是年輕人"},{"start":9685.218,"end":9706.358,"text":"歷經了6年到9年陸陸續續終於終於獲得司法審判最後的正義您知道監察院在2023年曾經針對318學運國家的執法有做出調查報告您知道嗎?我知道監察院的報告非常清楚他寫的是"},{"start":9707.614,"end":9735.096,"text":"行政院也就是國家政府違反比例原則之暴力手段來執行驅離是過當的所以監察院具體的在2023的調查報告也糾正了行政院糾正了內政部警政署糾正了臺北市政府也糾正了臺北地檢署這個是監察院的報告而這整個事件只有一位臺北市警局的特勤中隊長被申見兩次"},{"start":9737.096,"end":9755.931,"text":"民眾控告警察的案子全部都敗訴了就是官告民的部分全部敗訴了當時打人的對於人民施以暴力的過當的不符合比例原則的警察人員至今查無此人沒有任何人"},{"start":9757.438,"end":9779.01,"text":"被究責．只有一個小隊．中隊長兩個身屆．當時下令的指揮官．在司法的審判下依舊是無罪的那我們非常感謝林全院長．他在上任之後2016年5月20上任之後．他快速的針對江怡化前院長．對於學生平民提告的這個部分．全部來取消"},{"start":9780.271,"end":9799.549,"text":"因此讓很多的平民百姓學生不需要去心送避免了去走入這樣一個辛苦的程序但我講了這麼多現在我們都要非常清楚地去檢視人民的力量公民不服從如果當國會的多數"},{"start":9801.676,"end":9819.893,"text":"利用多數的力量當然這是一種民主選舉的結果但是切莫不要提出違反國家前途傷及人民利益的議案否則我們我們很不希望有318學運再次的發生"},{"start":9820.922,"end":9839.411,"text":"但是如果國家過當的去忽略人民的聲音那麼勢必會再來一回我在這裡提出來的是在司法面我們有值得檢視的意義兩位收到了解我想要追尋與你們的內容嗎"},{"start":9840.376,"end":9855.341,"text":"就是這麼多臺灣司法史上最大的國家對於人民提告的案件人民是何等的弱勢?人民是何等的弱勢?如果沒有林全院長當時主動的撤銷對學生的提告"},{"start":9856.301,"end":9884.884,"text":"這些學生持續的在心頌當中求助無門更甚至有22位包括林飛帆、陳維廷等等他們的告訴也歷經非常多年被檢察官起訴了22人也走了曠日廢時最終獲判無罪這樣一個歷史教訓告訴我們司法的審判不可不慎司法是站在人民的一邊大家有catch到我的訊息嗎"},{"start":9886.496,"end":9912.914,"text":"好 進入今天的主題為什麼偵查要不公開為了維護偵查程序順利進行以及有利於真實的發現為了保障案件關係人的名譽、隱私及安全為了落實無罪推定的原則確保被告要受到絕對公平的審判這就是《刑事訴訟法》245條所定的偵查不公開的立法利益"},{"start":9913.875,"end":9937.996,"text":"所以你們組成了檢討小組在上一集有督導小組每半年要針對你們去偵查有沒有公開的查處對外說明對不對程序上是這樣 下一頁但是我要很橫平的講之前有很多委員都在說偵查不公開是笑話這些委員要自我檢視因為偵查不公開之所以有壓力的破口"},{"start":9939.444,"end":9962.083,"text":"來自於兩端一個是媒體他基於報導的需求他想方設法去挖新聞去探新聞也許媒體也有能耐去介入檢調內部你們確實有人會洩密這個大家都要查辦但是另外一端非常重要的就是偵查不公開的壓力破口來自於政治力的介入難道不是嗎"},{"start":9963.084,"end":9983.491,"text":"今天從頭到尾有多少委員就是造成了你們偵查不公開的壓力破口就在今天right now的司法法制委員會政治力過蕩的介入偵查中的案件我有我的說法部長你們感同身受吧你們也承受非常大的壓力好我們來看幾個案例下一頁"},{"start":9984.588,"end":10009.173,"text":"以楊文科現場的案例當然如果任何一個報導媒體有辦法去獲得機密的資訊而率先揭露了我也認為這要查要辦所以呢楊文科的案子社攤的風暴被禁新聞這樣踢爆出來這就違反了偵查不公開現在有在調查嗎有"},{"start":10013.069,"end":10041.102,"text":"有在偵辦當中那就好好查我不介入個案畢竟偵辦中的案件被媒體披露當然就不應該有人泄密該查就查下一頁就楊文科的案子另外一個部分的壓力破口就來自於政治人物國民黨的立法院黨團公然召開記者會給予我們減掉很大的壓力第一個政治力介入國民黨的委員說"},{"start":10043.33,"end":10044.32,"text":"楊文科要備聲援"},{"start":10045.629,"end":10075.089,"text":"他一開始就說定了是司法的迫害這是一種政治力的介入個案第二個國民黨的委員在記者會當中還清楚的要求檢調說清楚講明白楊文科到底觸犯了《貪污自罪條例》的哪個部分是天坑案嗎還是其他案件檢調要說清楚講明白這就非常清楚是國民黨委員利用記者會利用政治的壓力要求你們偵查要公開不是嗎"},{"start":10076.13,"end":10089.23,"text":"你們很無奈．但是該堅持就堅持．該挺住就挺住 下一頁金星文的案子．對不起 好 金香海域的事件在野黨委員要求成立調閱小組"},{"start":10091.013,"end":10120.165,"text":"但是最終這個案子他們沒有提出一個偵辦當中的案件尤其涉及國家安全我們國人都要站在國家執法的一方都要站在我們司法審判獨立超然公正的一方但是藉由成立調閱小組要去調閱偵查中的卷證當然不行下一頁進週刊的案例進電視的案例也是藍白委員要求成立調閱小組就這個個案已經成立了"},{"start":10120.945,"end":10144.366,"text":"他們一樣違反了憲法大法官釋字729號下一頁我就不贅述了立法委員調閱的資料不能夠逾越檢察官的調查權偵查中的案件自不得來調閱相關卷證好下一頁再下一頁最後我要說"},{"start":10145.717,"end":10167.116,"text":"我當然理解偵查不公開你們有很大的壓力很大的壓力破口來自於政治力但是你們該辦就要辦該查就要查108年到112年新聞檢討報告的偵查不公開的查處只查辦處分了兩人下一頁我進一步調閱你們每半年公告一次的偵查不公開的查處"},{"start":10170.478,"end":10196.364,"text":"近兩年來22個地檢署處分了10人桃園地檢4人基隆地檢6人近兩年6個高檢署處分了多少人針對偵查不公開的案件的洩密呢處分了0人你們的查處查辦在查什麼的如果我們都厭惡偵查不公開一再的被迫公開你就要勇敢的去查誰洩密誰逾越了法規"},{"start":10198.355,"end":10214.29,"text":"誰違反了刑事訴訟法245條誰違反了你們偵查不公開的作業原則都要查部長、副秘書長你們針對這種查辦處分是零這是查真的查假的辦真的辦假的來您綜合回覆"},{"start":10215.88,"end":10232.124,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那對於偵查不公開我們一定要要求我們的檢察官還有輔助的司法警察機關在偵查案件當中一定要嚴守相關的規矩嚴守之外就有人不嚴守不嚴守調查是這種數字這種查辦你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":10237.9,"end":10264.672,"text":"當然要看每一個案件的內容那高檢署他處分的是指他自己本身還是說他所屬的包括所有的地檢因為地檢有處分的這個就應當你們來跟國會說明的我是自己去Google每半年的報告一個地檢署一個地檢署去調查混混我們來討論這個部分到底他處分的是哪些人哪些人該他被調查確實涉及洩密"},{"start":10265.612,"end":10291.768,"text":"自己內部但是卻沒有被處分我想這是立委就通案的部分應當對你們提出的監督但是對於個案的部分我覺得委員們我要再次提醒我們都不要過當的讓政治力來介入司法檢調這是違憲的我要再次強調不好意思主席多給我時間也謝謝兩位我們好好針對這個部分偵查不公開的爭議案件頻傳可是我們的查處卻是個位數卻是零"},{"start":10294.289,"end":10294.529,"text":"我們現在開始休息五分鐘"},{"start":10768.097,"end":10785.385,"text":"好我們現在開始開會我們接下來請林思明委員請到好謝謝主席主席有請我們法務部部長請蔡部長部長好委員好部長我剛才這個"},{"start":10794.384,"end":10821.716,"text":"吳士堯委員他這個講說是對於楊文科縣長這個案件我剛才聽他講說是因為國民黨黨團我們開記者會這個什麼政治操作要求檢方公開我想這一點我要做一下相關的一個澄清跟說明道理說國民黨團去開記者會對於檢方就楊文科50萬交保這件事情他交保的是由那麼檢方"},{"start":10823.917,"end":10834.846,"text":"如果適時的揭露一些相關的內容會不會違反偵查不公開我想我們真的要講清楚說明白我想這個案子剛才很多委員也有來詢問部長"},{"start":10837.082,"end":10862.412,"text":"那我想我們當初開記者會就是基於說這個這個交保的時機點非常敏感就是說因為是前一天才台南市的黃偉哲市長接受約談那第二天呢就姚文科縣長就被搜索然後而且被重保50萬交保那交保的原因大家都在猜到底姚文科為什麼要交保"},{"start":10863.631,"end":10885.194,"text":"黃偉哲是直接就賜回就請回那楊文科卻要重保50萬楊文科本來表示說我莫名其妙為什麼我要交保他還一度拒保那後來經過溝通協調那才這個50萬元他也去做這個交保的一個處分但是我們現在要澄清一點"},{"start":10886.295,"end":10903.652,"text":"就是說這個檢方當初做交保的時候因為我們那時候第一時間就是非常疑惑就是說到底他為什麼要50萬交保到底他是發生了什麼事那你說涉貪涉貪是涉及哪一個案件"},{"start":10904.753,"end":10930.108,"text":"那據於這一點我想我們還是認為這個是要跟社會大眾說明白講清楚因為這是一個縣長呢涉犯了一個重大案件然後也被交保處分那要對縣民新竹縣民要有一個交代所以檢方應該適時的就交保的理由來做出相關的一個說明部長您認為這樣有這個違反任何偵查不公開的原則嗎"},{"start":10931.004,"end":10951.565,"text":"如果按照規定涉及到公共利益的維護或是合法權益的保護有必要的時候是可以適度的來公開和介入所以看這個案件的情形如何由承辦的檢察官來認定所以我想部長所以這個案子我們只想了解"},{"start":10952.085,"end":10961.421,"text":"他到底因為涉犯哪一件貪污案涉犯哪一件貪污案比如說現在媒體揭露的是因為天坑案"},{"start":10963.377,"end":10981.627,"text":"因為實際的內容還是要由陳辦的地檢署檢察官最了解所以他基於一個新竹縣的大家長那是不是我們適度的去揭露說他是因為什麼案子涉嫌貪污重大所以給他交保這難道不能講嗎"},{"start":10984.279,"end":11011.712,"text":"呃 他們有發信物稿他們有發信物稿有做適度的說明啊但是我跟你講那時候那也許大家不滿意嘛但是要到最後偵查結束了所以我他自然而然會全部的公開嘛那等到偵查結束大家就一直在猜了嘛所以現在才會發生說今天進週刊去揭露多那麼多的一個這個案子的事實內容才會讓我們覺得說這個案子是不是早就已經寫好腳本了照表操課"},{"start":11012.913,"end":11032.14,"text":"先做一個交保搜索然後交保處分然後禁搜刊出來帶風響我想部長我們來看禁搜刊他的相關報導內容這真的是已經逾越偵查不公開把這個相關的一個犯罪的一個事實還有事證他竟然可以這麼鉅細靡遺的講出來這個偵查這個實質的核心內容他都可以講出來"},{"start":11037.522,"end":11054.407,"text":"這個我們不禁懷疑這不是檢方在去做這個相關事實的一個透露他怎麼會知道到底是不是偵辦的同仁或是其他相關的機關人員所洩漏的這是我們需要了解"},{"start":11054.887,"end":11074.053,"text":"是部長我想這個部分因為新竹地檢署也有發一個新聞稿新竹地檢署表示他們絕無可能對會去洩露這個透露這個報導的一個內容那是否為調查局北機組洩密上須調查那調查局北機組也表示"},{"start":11074.893,"end":11096.612,"text":"此案他們只是借用北部地區低動工作站的場地來約談他們實質沒有參與這個一個調查的調查那個涉嫌人他沒有參與那對案件的內容也毫無所知所以他說他實在也不可能會有洩密的一個情勢所以我請問部長"},{"start":11098.053,"end":11121.113,"text":"現在各說各話這件事情地檢署他的新聞稿說他們絕無可能會去洩密然後調局說我只根本沒有參與這個本案事實內容的一個調查我只是把這個場地借給這個地檢署而已兩個說法南轅北轍所以都表示不可能絕不會去洩漏這個相關的一個事實內容給媒體"},{"start":11122.814,"end":11149.905,"text":"所以我現在不禁懷疑難道這個是週刊寫的出來啊這是他杜撰的嗎兩個單位都說我不可能洩密啊因為可能他收集相關的資料他做分析判斷那這個我們是所以部長你認為不排除週刊杜撰的可能性啊這也是可能之一啦那有沒有人洩密我們也要調查是所以部長我現在想說"},{"start":11151.314,"end":11158.874,"text":"前面我們開記者會緊緊要求說應該檢調就是說交保的相關的一個犯罪的一個這個"},{"start":11160.898,"end":11180.448,"text":"類別你要講清楚他是因為涉及哪一個案子沒有要求你把相關的事證講出來你要告訴社會大眾一個堂堂的新竹縣的縣長今天被50萬重保他因為涉及什麼案件有相關的事證掌握你可以講啊你不用把事證的內容講出來但是我們現在看到這個案子報導的報導我這個大概唸給你聽"},{"start":11185.45,"end":11205.893,"text":"他講說,檢調除了掌握建商員工首期通年,提到縣長好像搞定了．更查出陽文科前年競選連任的總部．也就是瘋疫建案的豪華接待中心．還故意寫個豪華．離譜的是幾副瘋疫的87萬元中金．瘋疫不久就全數用政治現金的民意回贈"},{"start":11207.074,"end":11211.856,"text":"外界不知檢調在大動作搜索前﹐早就掌握五大關鍵事證﹐懷疑陽文科涉嫌受益公務處﹐放水天坑建商復工﹐其中存在對價關係"},{"start":11239.044,"end":11257.415,"text":"寫這麼清楚週刊可以爆出這麼詳細的一個爆料把相關的事實事證他可以講得出來這難道不是有人透露給他嗎不一定會是辦案人員透露有一些基本事實從過去的新聞然後再讓法律的嘗試去判斷"},{"start":11258.756,"end":11281.367,"text":"也許可以猜測得到,我們不敢講,但是我們會再調查清楚啦。這部長我想這件事情這個凸顯出就是說我們今天要這個講的偵查不公開的這個原則,那我們剛才副總召也講了就是說我們發覺說說我們檢調單位就是常常透露相關的獨家的內容給我們的相關的媒體,那"},{"start":11283.622,"end":11305.588,"text":"為什麼他可以拿到這些相關的一個事實內容去或者讓媒體能夠捕風捉影到底是因為這家週刊跟檢調的關係比較好還是說是因為受到上級的指示要透露來故意做整個政治操作"},{"start":11306.788,"end":11322.554,"text":"這個大家都在想像空間很大所以怎麼樣來嚴守我們偵查不公開的原則來杜絕這種情勢繼續發生啊柏柳你有什麼樣的一個想法怎麼樣來讓這種事情不要再發生"},{"start":11323.334,"end":11345.329,"text":"我們會強力的要求檢察官還有其他的辦案同仁還有其他的偵查機關都是要遵守這個規定那對於媒體的報導如果有澄清的必要也要不要做事實的澄清也不能一直的被黑鍋所以這個案子現在該副總裁要講了嗎你開始要啟動調查有啟動調查了嗎"},{"start":11346.63,"end":11363.929,"text":"有,他們應該都就新聞的報導都會有收集然後做檢討那高監署也會督導到底是哪一個環節洩這個密洩露這些內容還是週刊杜撰的你"},{"start":11364.522,"end":11383.039,"text":"大概多久可以查得出來我會要求高檢署就現在調查局或是地檢署他們有他們的說明到底是何者為真還是有其他的原因要再進一步的去了解所以我這個希望也這個要求"},{"start":11383.797,"end":11384.417,"text":"我們會做行政的督導"},{"start":11400.788,"end":11428.404,"text":"除了這個案子我再來跟你討論另外一個就是金門的海域的大陸漁船翻覆這個事件這個事件我們看到部長檢調是嚴防這個很嚴格的去實手我們偵查不公開的原則但立法院很多委員在質詢的時候就到底船隻有碰撞這一點呢都被以偵查不公開的理由不讓全民知道真相"},{"start":11429.344,"end":11451.039,"text":"沒有這回事兩件事情兩種態度啊沒有地檢署沒有說不能來對外說明因為按照這個規定如果涉及到公共利益或是合法的權益啊那是可以適度的分開但是就傳之有沒有碰撞這一個事實啊地檢署說這言新聞地檢說這個是偵查不公開他沒有這樣說沒有這樣說嗎那有證實說是碰撞嗎公開的新聞稿裡面說他沒有"},{"start":11458.185,"end":11465.845,"text":"對外這樣說那他有他有講是也許是其他的辦案單位他自己的判斷"},{"start":11467.267,"end":11484.934,"text":"但是按照我們作業辦法的規定是如果有涉及到公共利益或是合法權益的可以適度的公開說明那個部長我想我最後的結論我想我絕對相信檢調的一個操守也絕對經得起檢驗但是這兩個案子"},{"start":11489.696,"end":11510.512,"text":"偏偏是很清楚的雙標啦你剛一直跟我講金門地檢他們沒有這樣說但是我們看到的情況金門地檢就嚴守偵查不公開到底這個案情的內容資質不透露啊到底大家想了解的真相就到底船隻有沒有碰撞他一直不願意去很適度的做一個揭露承辦的單位"},{"start":11513.895,"end":11538.553,"text":"所以我還是這個要求我們法務部絕對不能因為受到政治的影響每一位檢察官都要獨立辦案絕對不要受政治的影響而做出違反偵查不公開這樣的原則不會受到政治的影響對 真的要在這裡嚴格的要求不過也請大家尊重檢察官他們獨立行使職權好 謝謝"},{"start":11542.822,"end":11559.638,"text":"謝謝,那我們接下來我們先處理那個會議時間上午會議時間我們會持續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答完畢為止那接下來我們請翁委員小林進行詢答"},{"start":11573.021,"end":11576.468,"text":"主席、各位官員大家好,還有有請部長。請蔡部長。"},{"start":11583.183,"end":11607.564,"text":"委員好部長您辛苦了從今天早上一直到現在其實我想委員們問的問題都差不多尤其是針對這次凱凱被保母虐死案然後後續又延伸了社工的這個被具體上銬的這個問題也引起了社工界的很大的反應那麼大家認為說這個在僅僅"},{"start":11610.265,"end":11610.285,"text":"麻煩這個"},{"start":11637.932,"end":11641.535,"text":"下一頁圖表我想在刑事訴訟法裡面其實也規定得很清楚對於要進行拘提他其實有要進行一定的步驟有一些條件的如果說是以今天社工的情況他其實都已經到了警察局"},{"start":11660.572,"end":11669.543,"text":"也到那裡去進行案情的說明那麼就算是檢察官有之前有開G票可是這樣子的做法是正確的嗎?"},{"start":11671.503,"end":11693.095,"text":"在法律上他是可以這樣做的是可是這樣的話有沒有逾越了他的逾越比例原則我們可以看一下其實在現行的法律裡面的規定就是除非是這個被告的犯罪嫌疑重大然後有符合一定的條件必要的時候才可以不經傳喚進行拘提可是今天的情況就是說這個社工"},{"start":11694.216,"end":11716.71,"text":"他已經都到警局而且呢看起來也都很配合可是我們警方卻這個仍然是當時這個有合法這個拘票這樣子的行為是不是已經違反了警這個已經違反了檢察官這個一般辦案的這樣做法"},{"start":11718.01,"end":11741.231,"text":"法律上它是合法的但是有沒有比例原則上這個考量那這個是可以在個案上判斷那請問過去檢察署這邊曾經有針對檢察官這個就不法的去合法拘票的這件事情有進行過內部的檢討嗎或是你們有訂定過什麼樣的一個注意事項嗎"},{"start":11743.323,"end":11766.213,"text":"針對拘票的問題當然很少看到說有不合法的因為畢竟法律對檢察官來講他個案的處理他經驗很豐富而且還有主任檢察官還有相岳還有檢察長在督導所以個案上並沒有看到說有違法的所以你們過去都沒有發現過就是說有檢察官有濫發拘票的這樣的狀況"},{"start":11770.727,"end":11779.857,"text":"據我所知是沒有因為這樣我認為其實這這麼多年來一定會有檢查關係也許有但是我想沒有說拿出來檢討要處罰的"},{"start":11782.094,"end":11790.925,"text":"但是從這個案子裡面其實就已經凸顯出其實檢察官是不是有濫發G票的一個問題那麼在過去我們其實常看到新聞上面都有這樣的一個問題的產生所以我希望法務部能夠針對這個檢查發G票的"},{"start":11801.677,"end":11802.177,"text":"這次也是社會大眾對於我們的這個"},{"start":11829.893,"end":11845.696,"text":"這警察人員為什麼要給社工上銬的這個行為認為有非常嚴重的瑕疵那麼依照我們現在的這個刑事訴訟法的一個相關的規定其實"},{"start":11848.969,"end":11863.757,"text":"執行具體逮捕或解送得使用、借據但是不得逾越必要的程度請問財良權這個部分在過去的檢查署這邊是怎麼樣的做解說或是警察單位"},{"start":11865.219,"end":11894.023,"text":"因為執行是在警察所以他要看判斷當時的狀況是不是有這個必要的情形所以就這次的社工的情況來說您認為他有必要要上手銬嗎因為我沒有看到整個案件的情形所以我想這個東西還是可以尊重這個案情比較了解的懲辦人員來做必要的判斷今天警政署也有來嗎警政署的代表"},{"start":11898.15,"end":11915.545,"text":"請局長上台是報告委員我是刑事警察局局長周又偉是那這個案子的話因為是當時是依據檢察官的拘票來執行這樣的一個具體的行動那這個具體我們自己有一個辦法是執行具體逮捕、借送"},{"start":11916.266,"end":11917.667,"text":"要遵守比例原則不能逾越必要程度"},{"start":11938.467,"end":11953.527,"text":"是謝謝局長的這個解說那很重要就其實在刑事訴訟法裡面就已經講了你就算是要使用借據要符合比例原則而且也必須要注意到被告或犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽要避免他公然暴露"},{"start":11954.688,"end":11954.708,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":11977.623,"end":11995.561,"text":"上課之後他有沒有注意到其實也是要維護到社工的名譽而應該要做一個適當的遮掩但這個部分其實看起來警察是都沒有做到從一開始我們剛剛講是不是使用拘票然後之後再"},{"start":11999.324,"end":11999.644,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12020.054,"end":12020.094,"text":"主席"},{"start":12039.156,"end":12063.091,"text":"大批的記者在門外守候而且直接的拍攝那麼這個有關於偵查不公開的作業部分看起來法務部其實自己本身是有訂定偵查不公開作業辦法可是我大致上看一下應該說我看了這個偵查不公開作業辦法其實裡面的規定其實都很抽象那不知道為什麼"},{"start":12064.592,"end":12085.308,"text":"就是就法務部這邊沒有要求各個檢查或檢調單位有訂定更細緻的注意要點我現在看到的是警察機關這裡他是有訂定有關於跟新聞媒體的這個注意要點但是檢查但是就是檢調機關沒有那我想請教部長為什麼沒有在"},{"start":12089.216,"end":12089.416,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12120.036,"end":12143.147,"text":"警察機關、警政署這邊訂定的警察機關偵辦、刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則的注意要點裡面是訂的更為細緻很多的細節都有訂定所以我在這邊我也希望這個法務部這邊也可以就是比較像是參考警政署所訂的這個注意要點自己的檢調機關也應該要訂定類似的要點"},{"start":12145.528,"end":12167.95,"text":"還有就是說在之前剛剛前面幾位委員有講的其實你們針對這個偵查不公開也有進行定期的檢討可是很有趣的就是不管是在高檢署、法務部等等自己內部所進行的檢討的案件數非常多但是實際上真的有被處罰的人數卻非常非常少那麼所以我就不知道你們"},{"start":12168.37,"end":12173.312,"text":"檢討數字多是因為他收集所有報道出來的有關案件的這些文章或是報道內容都要來檢討所以他案件很多因為每一天報紙都有很多個案的一個報道"},{"start":12197.318,"end":12225.735,"text":"那至於這些是不是有涉及到偵查不公開案件自然會變少那這個少數但是我們還是很深入去探討有沒有違反要負責任的是我認為說可能你們檢討小組裡面也出了一些問題如果說都是自己內部的人在進行檢討而沒有引進引入外部的專家學者甚至媒體一起來進入來討論的話那麼我認為說這樣的偵查不公開可能你未來就算是"},{"start":12226.615,"end":12232.157,"text":"檢討了一千件一萬件也不會有任何的這個人員的處分這樣的話對於我們要促進我們偵查不公開讓他能夠更重視人權這是沒有注意的所以我希望就說你們能夠好好的要去檢討有關於偵查不公開作業辦法若違反的話那麼相關的懲處以及如何能夠將"},{"start":12250.102,"end":12264.481,"text":"徵查不公開作業的辦法在往下落實可以訂定更細緻的作業要點這樣才有辦法真的能夠維護司法人權以上好 謝謝謝謝 請回那我們接下來請賴氏寶委員請答"},{"start":12281.477,"end":12294.788,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進先請一下司法院黃副秘書長請副秘書長上台委員好秘書長好"},{"start":12297.155,"end":12308.128,"text":"最近我看到司法院在大法官說要對Face的事情進行辯論什麼時候會有辯論?應該4月23號什麼時候會有結果?"},{"start":12312.933,"end":12313.815,"text":"按照過去的時間表差不多"},{"start":12328.018,"end":12330.52,"text":"超過八成以上的臺灣老百姓是反對FACE的"},{"start":12354.008,"end":12383.059,"text":"Face只有執政黨這邊特別是蔡總統也會再推動那大法官又是他任命的外界就很擔心我請你告訴大法官或者最少告訴院長許中立嘛是吧對嘛告訴他他如果事先的結果是Face的話一定引起民眾大幅的反彈"},{"start":12384.266,"end":12408.267,"text":"特別在最近滅統案的事件刑保286條我就把它修法我要提案啊改了死刑現在最高就無舉徒刑而已你們現在都是處處在替加害者在講他的人權那個受害者咧這樣子兒童這麼的一個innocent然後被這樣弄死了"},{"start":12409.485,"end":12437.693,"text":"一想到這個心會痛啊然後居然你們要大法官為這個事情說哎喲 死刑要不要把它廢掉喔喔 人權喔這些 這些傻人犯罪的人權喔我就是請你來上來就告訴你這也是多數委員的一個心聲多數老百姓的心聲請他務必 請你務必要告訴司法院這些大法官們偉大的大法官"},{"start":12439.272,"end":12463.199,"text":"老實講現在有37位沒有來來來法務部長一起來現在有37位沒有執行嘛對不對37、38還沒有執行37嘛3737啊就是法務部跟司法院兩個串通起來就一直把他延延延你搞什麼經過憲法法庭"},{"start":12464.625,"end":12487.74,"text":"這莫名其妙 原來就可以執行 那個辦法實在 那個不是法律啊 經過這個是你的執行辦法裡面 你的一個行政命令而已你就給他開一條路 哎喲 你能去這喔 非常上訴 再上訴 然後呢 走現場法庭你只給他一條路 大家都走這條路 我跟委員說明 那個辦法是我還沒有上任之前就已經 我知道 你可以改啊"},{"start":12488.783,"end":12506.856,"text":"那這是他有一個救急報告你可以改啊 蔡部長你外面的形象是不錯的評價也不錯的你不要因為這樣子葬送你一輩子的那種那種我不知道580之後你會不會繼續拒認了我們看了 司法院憲法法庭他判決該改我們就會改你裡面就該改了對 該改就會改這個不是法律"},{"start":12511.493,"end":12518.18,"text":"這個已經拖這麼久了37、38個最大、中大、二級的那即時改了也是個溯及既往阿對這37位來講他還是要遵守原來的規定阿你就規定這個拿掉就沒有那個憲法法庭的事情了他現在一直督就讓他有個憲法法庭走這裡面純粹就是要該有的救濟機會我們還是要先讓我講完救濟程序結束以後我們該怎麼做就怎麼做先讓我講完可以嗎你不要講話"},{"start":12536.963,"end":12558.174,"text":"整個來講 法務部、司法院通通就在執行蔡英文已降民進黨的 mindset就是要 face 全民反對 八成以上反對這一次啊 賴清德得票只有鞏固基本法40%這是原因之一好 那個 副秘書長請回了"},{"start":12560.58,"end":12586.566,"text":"部長啊是老實講你以前的形象都不錯但是這次選舉的時候我對你大大的失望我還是一般來來來不要講話我沒講你先不要講喔檢察官在選前大動作約談去過大陸的里長台北市里長40幾個文山區的里長有22個里長被約談了早上一大早7點"},{"start":12588.567,"end":12612.793,"text":"敲門啊 帶走 到下午4點再放回來這有什麼人權 7點進去啊 4點出來啊這個 被約談了以後 基本上沒辦法申請良民證了然後 里長不能參加議銷 來 有一個里長木柵分隊張里長 不要講他的名字"},{"start":12613.991,"end":12637.496,"text":"你看 它裡面寫什麼 刑事資料沒有顯示該案偵解判決結果 所以不給他參加議銷我要做義工 我做議銷 就是因為你們檢察官給人家約談了到現在掉在半空中 他良民證不能申請 他民防不能參加 議銷不能參加這是什麼跟什麼啊 部長啊"},{"start":12640.281,"end":12657.539,"text":"這個反滲透法是一部惡法反滲透法裡面比如說何建華不是拿中共的錢嗎老共的錢嗎辦了三年輕輕鬆鬆的還判無罪這個東西本來他就是本來他就是一個"},{"start":12659.281,"end":12682.772,"text":"思想的一個東西這個根本就不夠具體我們的反省動法講什麼?境外勢力只是委託或支柱什麼叫只是?什麼叫委託?什麼叫支柱?結果更扯的 不能夠告訴人家喔我在國會殿堂我負責任講出來我們22個文山隊里長被約談檢查官都問同一個問題都問同一個問題喔"},{"start":12687.233,"end":12703.425,"text":"當然都告訴他說問你的不能講可是事關我當然要跟我講問他一個問題說你們去大陸接受招待大陸有沒有指示你們說要支持賴思寶這憑名賴思寶欸"},{"start":12706.533,"end":12727.695,"text":"就點名賴世保欸22個通通問同一個問題其他的但是又一個中心的問題都一樣然後載過來第二個問某一個里長說為什麼賴世保的肇事你跑第一個上去我們的里長都很聰明啊腦筋很靈光啊他說我是國民黨籍我當然支持賴世保啊"},{"start":12729.565,"end":12740.811,"text":"昨天被折磨從7點折磨到下午4點到現在什麼也沒有Pending在那裡不能申請良民證不能去當異鄉不能去參加民訪工作"},{"start":12742.463,"end":12745.605,"text":"法務部的檢察官法務部借選非常嚴重"},{"start":12760.967,"end":12777.073,"text":"沒有這件事啊!絕對嚴重!絕對就行!不是!不能這樣解讀啦!那你現在會怎麼這個案子呢?那我會教訓他盡快來結案!要結案啦!他是有犯罪嫌疑才會被約談!約談也不代表說他是構成犯罪啦!好好笑的事情!來!我給你!我給你講一個問題!"},{"start":12779.654,"end":12800.679,"text":"他說去什麼江南五月然後一萬五太便宜里長好幾個里長拿給他你看網路有一萬一的有九千的就只有拿這個說我的團費太低我可能接受資助然後把剩下的錢來支持在司法這個樣子啦支持國民黨的候選人這個邏輯是這樣邏輯這個不是政治方案什麼才是政治方案"},{"start":12806.776,"end":12819.392,"text":"這個赤裸裸的介入政治太深介入選舉太深我最近為什麼今天我為什麼今天一定要來法務部這裡來跟你質詢我最近就一直接到里長跟我這樣講"},{"start":12820.609,"end":12841.237,"text":"他們做很多事情不能做就是卡在這裡我會要求他們盡快結案你沒事就趕快給他結案而且而且我再最後一句話你看那個當初看到統促黨的何建華他還拿了勞工的錢起訴起訴起訴法欸判無罪啊或者這個案子還要你們要上訴嗎你們還要不要上訴他講到剛剛來判斷他他決定沒有啊我不曉得"},{"start":12851.192,"end":12871.734,"text":"如果委員要知道我來幫忙了解我沒有要知道這個事情我比較關心是我們那些里長二十幾個里長現在吊在辦公室這個我可以要求他盡快整個道地這個道地就是政治辦案我覺得很悲哀啊蔡清祥部長你的如果你無法領之後沒有辦法再續任"},{"start":12873.868,"end":12892.892,"text":"我跟你講你的名字人家就掛在那裡就是在2024的大選之前強力介入不會啦去約談里長沒有這回事就已經有啦全國都有那也不是我下令的啊我也不可能這樣下令啊不管怎麼樣這個章送你身上這個這個你看喔我們檢察官請問你現在定罪率多高上訴以後"},{"start":12900.341,"end":12900.922,"text":"違反國家機密三成左右"},{"start":12920.938,"end":12943.409,"text":"你檢察官就亂起訴啊!然後你那個事,一起訴這個人就垮了一半耶!真的,檢察官的起訴要很慎重,定罪率很高!日本的檢察官起訴定罪率99.9%!99.9%!但是我們在國安的部分,起訴的定罪率非常的低!"},{"start":12944.83,"end":12945.03,"text":"那那個翁偉"},{"start":12986.039,"end":12987.8,"text":"吳宗憲委員蔡部長周局長"},{"start":13000.572,"end":13006.495,"text":"財務部長 您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開 辦法第8條有些例外我想請問一下 我們現在先看第一個個案"},{"start":13023.108,"end":13052.115,"text":"陳忠彥的案子陳忠彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的"},{"start":13053.712,"end":13082.914,"text":"好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一章好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清"},{"start":13083.755,"end":13111.202,"text":"地檢署他不會去對當事人澄清但是我們看到的第8條的這個第一項第7款他其實是說到對於這些被害人或當事人有澄清的必要的時候其實他是可以做不公開的一個例外但是呢我看到的地檢署總是在說自己沒有不對啦那是不是在檢方的邏輯裡面其實當事人的名譽是沒有那麼重要部長"},{"start":13113.336,"end":13113.496,"text":"地檢署對於"},{"start":13129.369,"end":13152.927,"text":"新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看"},{"start":13154.348,"end":13168.761,"text":"我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣"},{"start":13170.223,"end":13185.74,"text":"是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明"},{"start":13188.381,"end":13213.446,"text":"我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即"},{"start":13216.167,"end":13230.182,"text":"那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個"},{"start":13231.621,"end":13256.135,"text":"媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分"},{"start":13257.148,"end":13273.291,"text":"他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共有30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣"},{"start":13274.532,"end":13301.825,"text":"檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去"},{"start":13302.785,"end":13302.925,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":13322.474,"end":13345.96,"text":"任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":13347.342,"end":13371.779,"text":"我會要求不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了112年4月法務部調查局也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任下一位"},{"start":13372.74,"end":13390.956,"text":"都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃塵那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解"},{"start":13394.02,"end":13419.203,"text":"這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司耀委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說"},{"start":13421.648,"end":13429.876,"text":"為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工"},{"start":13431.363,"end":13459.252,"text":"我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自罪條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個"},{"start":13460.632,"end":13489.763,"text":"任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望"},{"start":13490.956,"end":13509.035,"text":"部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩露出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也"},{"start":13510.316,"end":13535.247,"text":"當過警察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法啦所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林芝廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來"},{"start":13537.874,"end":13542.704,"text":"馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來"},{"start":13544.008,"end":13569.169,"text":"今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個"},{"start":13572.284,"end":13594.384,"text":"依然地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體"},{"start":13595.552,"end":13622.398,"text":"指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再"},{"start":13624.724,"end":13633.458,"text":"我們再往下看其實我想要偵查人員的思維發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後"},{"start":13635.598,"end":13656.941,"text":"真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷那他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是"},{"start":13657.862,"end":13659.503,"text":"現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得"},{"start":13678.919,"end":13702.754,"text":"呃 這個 局長 州長 也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁 這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人 國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢 我們是 我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個"},{"start":13704.235,"end":13728.909,"text":"他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法"},{"start":13730.401,"end":13748.444,"text":"好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是"},{"start":13749.795,"end":13775.596,"text":"今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是"},{"start":13776.783,"end":13777.003,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13804.64,"end":13822.854,"text":"這些案子搞到最後就是為了變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法這都會有影響然後因為我國總是沒有我國不像歐洲有遺忘權"},{"start":13824.929,"end":13843.756,"text":"那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法抹滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去"},{"start":13844.236,"end":13844.676,"text":"最後我想周局長"},{"start":13866.205,"end":13882.939,"text":"剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個警察高層麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面"},{"start":13885.177,"end":13907.65,"text":"第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬"},{"start":13908.956,"end":13915.504,"text":"那第一個 法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":13916.843,"end":13938.976,"text":"你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚"},{"start":13940.017,"end":13957.069,"text":"只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候"},{"start":13958.598,"end":13980.266,"text":"不要每一次發生事情警方高層都第一個跳出來先罵警察你先釐清嘛如果是後來手銬外露你要處分我絕對贊成但是前階段上銬到底有沒有違反比例原則真的是要弄清楚之後再下定論好不好我想說這樣因為畢竟警方我看也是公務員裡面算是因公殉職"},{"start":13981.286,"end":13982.407,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請法務部長好 麻煩請部長"},{"start":14015.58,"end":14030.782,"text":"部長,現在接近520,剛剛大家討論這麼多有關於司法的問題,包含偵查不公開,包含檢察官有沒有隨便的去傳票或者是約談等等。"},{"start":14032.247,"end":14050.228,"text":"我記得蔡總統她當時上任的時候她得到最大的掌聲就是當時她說要司法改革那個時候她的這一部分滿意度最高可是到現在為止司法改革完全落空"},{"start":14051.169,"end":14065.388,"text":"而根據我想到了這個週年的時候應該又會有一些重要的民調會出來現在很多的民調都顯示民眾對於司法改革的不滿意度很多都超過50%"},{"start":14067.697,"end":14093.394,"text":"就是我們剛才在講了這麼多的這些問題我覺得剛才我聽到我們主席我們的昭偉因為他自己當過檢察官他講他那個經歷想想看我們可能對政治人物我也常常被告我們政治人物心臟比較大顆然後反正就是你竟然從事人事一個公眾人物對於很多一般的小市民來說"},{"start":14094.616,"end":14119.127,"text":"他今天不要說他上法庭了他去那個檢察官約談他一次都是何等重大的事情這我剛叫呼應剛才那個賴志寶委員所提的你不要以為這些里長這些里長事上當他們被那個檢察官約談的時候真的都感覺手軟然後他們的家人就到處打電話去打聽說怎麼回事怎麼辦人會不會回來"},{"start":14122.856,"end":14138.448,"text":"所以今天我們如果動輒以一些帶風向也好或者真的是在選舉期間就大動干戈的去做這些調查我覺得這都是嚴重的傷害司法形象"},{"start":14139.656,"end":14156.25,"text":"接下來我要講一個案例喔就最近也有一些新聞報導我們都很痛恨詐騙集團但是呢我們也知道很多詐騙集團因為呢他資金雄厚所以呢他有很多的律師當他的狗頭軍師"},{"start":14158.192,"end":14185.964,"text":"所以現在呢有一個案子就是這些律師就是他們這些當這些他的集團軍師的律師分別都被收押因為他們認為在集團內他們的組織分工都很細膩而且他們還指導這個車手怎麼樣去面對這些檢警的偵查因為他們很熟然後呢還用telegram因為他知道這個比較不容易被偵查到"},{"start":14186.664,"end":14207.415,"text":"然後把這些因為他派出去這些律師幫車手去做辯護然後再把這些訊息傳回給這個這些詐騙集團讓詐騙集團知道怎麼樣去躲過檢調的這些偵查甚至直接先跑掉你可以看一下這個案例齁其中有一個"},{"start":14211.377,"end":14236.085,"text":"叫做鄭宏威律師還有黃根宏律師這兩個律師都是在詐騙集團當報馬仔他們用一些他們熟悉的或是他的學弟這些什麼有會計師執照啦或者當這個詐騙集團的帳房還甚至幫他洗錢用虛擬貨幣洗錢另外一方面呢他也找一些律師去幫這些詐騙集團的車手去"},{"start":14240.586,"end":14240.786,"text":"李明潔、楊雅涵、賴季昌"},{"start":14259.824,"end":14274.12,"text":"我現在要求的是這些律師知法犯法我們在打詐我們一邊打詐不管我們司法機關怎麼加強怎麼樣修法可是這些律師他也是很懂法的啊"},{"start":14274.801,"end":14296.228,"text":"他知道還會去做這些所有的在司法這些規避的技巧所以我在這邊具體的要求我們必須要詳查還有沒有其他涉案律師真的只有這幾位律師嗎我現在封文的不是只有這幾位律師喔他們甚至也是集團型的還有"},{"start":14297.148,"end":14319.248,"text":"他們還沒有涉及其他的詐騙案只有這個詐騙案嗎?因為他們的詐騙案事實上是來自好像不同縣市的他們是跨縣市在做的所以他們就是一個犯罪集團這些律師就是犯罪集團當然,他們這些律師一定要被撤照律師公會一定要把他吊下牌照"},{"start":14320.168,"end":14343.276,"text":"可是我覺得要加重他們處分因為他們知法犯法另外我也在這邊直接的要求應該比照IMB的這個案子把主謀的財產相關的房子土地賬戶現金在偵查期間應該予以扣押否則這些詐騙因為他是跨好幾個詐騙集團以後這些人會求訴無門"},{"start":14346.997,"end":14370.838,"text":"因為他現在面對的不是只有詐騙集團而已他面對還是這些整個強大的律師團所以部長可不可以請法務部特別針對這個案子因為這個涉案的不是一般的詐騙集團而是一群律師可不可以確切的我剛講說繼續的追查還有扣押他們的財產"},{"start":14372.158,"end":14397.24,"text":"謝謝委員的指教如果它是一個集團性的犯罪我們一定會嚴辦他們確實集團性是 我們還會再往下追下去尤其這律師是知法犯法更應該要嚴懲沒有錯啊律師應該是協助我們來打詐他現在不是啊協助詐騙集團反打詐所以才我們現在詐騙集團才會這麼多所以這個案子我覺得不容小續所以我也請法務部"},{"start":14398.541,"end":14398.981,"text":"蘇曉慧委員林德福委員鄭天才委員"},{"start":14426.648,"end":14431.452,"text":"蘇清泉委員謝一鳳委員徐欣盈委員何欣淳委員"},{"start":14454.83,"end":14476.65,"text":"鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員以上其他委員都沒有到場我們今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢"},{"start":14478.294,"end":14480.377,"text":"本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"15734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15734","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea3e43fff42b9abd610a73ccf8a48a70923be8d109af184be4dd65e936c79acf265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:31:37+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:11:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16763,"委員發言時間":"08:31:37 - 13:11:00","影片長度":"04:39:23","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1714.5140937500003,"end":1717.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1718.3953437500002,"end":1721.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1722.3440937500002,"end":1726.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1728.3684687500001,"end":1738.7128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1739.1347187500003,"end":1748.0784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1748.58471875,"end":1752.1622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1752.38159375,"end":1755.5372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1755.7734687500001,"end":1757.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1758.13596875,"end":1768.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1768.98659375,"end":1772.5640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1772.76659375,"end":1777.4915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1777.6603437500003,"end":1781.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1781.5584687500002,"end":1783.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1783.8365937500002,"end":1787.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1787.5997187500002,"end":1792.1053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1792.5272187500002,"end":1796.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1797.37034375,"end":1799.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1799.5809687500002,"end":1803.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1804.1034687500003,"end":1806.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1806.11159375,"end":1812.1190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1812.8784687500001,"end":1817.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1817.75534375,"end":1823.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1824.4715937500002,"end":1829.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1830.2597187500003,"end":1834.7147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1834.9847187500002,"end":1837.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1838.02221875,"end":1840.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1841.12721875,"end":1843.8440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1844.06346875,"end":1844.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1844.50221875,"end":1848.6703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1848.8222187500003,"end":1852.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1852.3997187500001,"end":1852.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1853.1084687500002,"end":1860.7528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1861.5459687500002,"end":1866.5072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1867.8572187500001,"end":1868.7684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1870.6078437500003,"end":1871.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1871.5528437500002,"end":1875.5184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1876.1765937500002,"end":1879.4165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1879.4165937500002,"end":1879.4503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1880.0240937500002,"end":1880.0409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1880.0409687500003,"end":1885.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1885.54221875,"end":1885.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1888.1240937500002,"end":1893.5409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1896.08909375,"end":1900.2234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1901.6915937500003,"end":1903.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1904.9315937500003,"end":1914.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1915.5797187500002,"end":1916.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1918.4147187500002,"end":1920.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1922.6334687500002,"end":1925.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1926.9534687500002,"end":1928.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1930.8178437500003,"end":1934.1928437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1936.16721875,"end":1939.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1941.4153437500001,"end":1943.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1945.4822187500001,"end":1947.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1949.7515937500002,"end":1952.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1953.7847187500001,"end":1955.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1958.0540937500002,"end":1960.3490937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1962.0365937500003,"end":1964.5678437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1966.8628437500001,"end":1969.1747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1971.0140937500003,"end":1973.4947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1975.2328437500003,"end":1977.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1979.48534375,"end":1982.4047187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1985.0878437500003,"end":1988.5640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1989.9478437500002,"end":1991.2640937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1991.43284375,"end":1994.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1997.7103437500002,"end":2000.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2002.97534375,"end":2006.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2008.4765937500001,"end":2011.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2013.4547187500002,"end":2016.9478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2019.3272187500002,"end":2022.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2024.3222187500003,"end":2027.1065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2029.0134687500001,"end":2032.0678437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2034.1603437500003,"end":2037.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2039.39159375,"end":2042.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2044.3022187500003,"end":2046.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2049.24659375,"end":2052.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2053.9209687500006,"end":2056.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2059.18596875,"end":2061.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2063.21909375,"end":2064.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2064.5690937500003,"end":2065.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2067.91034375,"end":2071.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2073.71534375,"end":2076.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2078.7272187500002,"end":2081.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2084.1103437500005,"end":2086.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2088.88596875,"end":2092.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2094.18471875,"end":2108.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2108.89971875,"end":2111.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2112.17346875,"end":2114.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2115.8522187500002,"end":2116.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2116.8309687500005,"end":2117.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2118.0290937500004,"end":2121.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2121.91034375,"end":2124.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2124.9647187500004,"end":2132.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2133.06471875,"end":2134.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2135.10659375,"end":2139.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2139.74721875,"end":2144.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2140.96221875,"end":2147.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2147.22284375,"end":2148.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2148.55596875,"end":2155.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2157.6853437500004,"end":2163.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2170.1559687500003,"end":2171.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2172.60284375,"end":2176.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2176.51784375,"end":2185.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2186.57534375,"end":2195.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2195.50221875,"end":2197.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2198.38784375,"end":2200.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2201.6278437500005,"end":2208.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2208.46221875,"end":2212.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2212.4109687500004,"end":2214.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2214.7734687500006,"end":2216.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2217.74346875,"end":2222.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2222.62034375,"end":2225.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2225.69159375,"end":2231.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2232.7959687500006,"end":2235.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2236.0359687500004,"end":2238.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2239.19159375,"end":2247.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2248.23659375,"end":2250.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2251.07159375,"end":2251.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2251.98284375,"end":2253.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2253.97409375,"end":2257.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2257.9734687500004,"end":2260.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2260.18409375,"end":2264.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2265.06096875,"end":2274.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2275.67534375,"end":2278.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2278.81409375,"end":2282.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2282.5772187500006,"end":2282.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2283.2184687500003,"end":2288.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2288.68596875,"end":2293.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2294.17034375,"end":2300.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2304.17721875,"end":2306.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2306.40471875,"end":2313.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2313.8465937500005,"end":2317.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2317.67721875,"end":2319.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2320.27596875,"end":2324.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2324.9840937500003,"end":2328.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2328.22409375,"end":2332.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2332.5272187500004,"end":2335.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2335.86846875,"end":2336.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2337.06659375,"end":2338.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2338.63596875,"end":2345.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2345.63909375,"end":2351.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2352.2372187500005,"end":2354.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2354.98784375,"end":2360.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2360.6072187500004,"end":2361.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2362.0078437500006,"end":2367.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2368.1334687500002,"end":2373.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2373.4490937500004,"end":2375.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2375.89596875,"end":2380.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2380.84034375,"end":2382.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2383.2197187500005,"end":2390.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2390.6953437500006,"end":2397.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2399.6559687500003,"end":2410.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2410.3884687500004,"end":2413.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2414.23596875,"end":2418.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2418.79221875,"end":2423.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2423.3653437500006,"end":2430.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2431.02659375,"end":2435.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2436.0553437500002,"end":2438.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2440.2909687500005,"end":2440.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2441.47221875,"end":2458.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2458.3809687500006,"end":2461.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2462.75159375,"end":2473.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2475.2559687500006,"end":2476.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2477.5847187500003,"end":2478.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2478.76596875,"end":2479.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2481.17909375,"end":2493.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2493.8690937500005,"end":2499.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2499.92721875,"end":2508.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2508.5840937500006,"end":2539.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2540.83221875,"end":2558.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2558.5847187500003,"end":2568.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2569.2665937500005,"end":2585.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2585.68596875,"end":2591.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2591.47409375,"end":2592.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2592.67221875,"end":2597.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2598.29159375,"end":2604.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2604.3328437500004,"end":2622.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2622.76034375,"end":2629.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2629.56096875,"end":2632.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2635.2647187500006,"end":2642.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2648.12346875,"end":2650.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2650.6378437500007,"end":2651.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2658.36659375,"end":2658.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2658.83909375,"end":2668.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2668.0359687500004,"end":2669.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2669.9765937500006,"end":2670.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2670.0272187500004,"end":2674.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2674.9715937500005,"end":2701.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2681.9072187500005,"end":2682.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2701.56659375,"end":2701.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2701.6003437500003,"end":2701.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2701.70159375,"end":2711.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2701.7184687500003,"end":2702.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2711.33721875,"end":2711.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2711.40471875,"end":2712.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2712.19784375,"end":2712.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2713.6659687500005,"end":2714.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2714.00346875,"end":2714.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2714.3409687500007,"end":2715.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2715.31971875,"end":2715.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2715.97784375,"end":2716.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2716.0284687500007,"end":2716.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2716.28159375,"end":2716.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2718.1884687500005,"end":2721.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2721.9684687500003,"end":2725.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2726.47409375,"end":2726.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2726.89596875,"end":2728.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2728.46534375,"end":2733.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2733.9665937500004,"end":2735.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2736.6159687500003,"end":2738.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2738.7253437500003,"end":2755.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2755.7859687500004,"end":2757.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2758.65471875,"end":2758.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2759.6334687500002,"end":2761.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2761.77659375,"end":2762.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2763.16034375,"end":2783.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2783.8153437500005,"end":2791.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2791.62846875,"end":2792.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2792.94471875,"end":2794.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2797.6865937500006,"end":2797.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2800.5553437500002,"end":2813.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2802.0909687500007,"end":2802.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2802.10784375,"end":2802.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2802.1922187500004,"end":2802.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2802.4453437500006,"end":2802.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2807.96346875,"end":2808.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2808.3347187500003,"end":2808.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2810.2753437500005,"end":2810.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2811.22034375,"end":2811.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2811.2878437500003,"end":2812.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2813.2115937500002,"end":2816.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2816.6034687500005,"end":2876.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2877.2184687500003,"end":2878.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2879.78346875,"end":2897.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2898.1434687500005,"end":2935.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2936.19659375,"end":2951.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2951.02971875,"end":2970.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2969.33909375,"end":2979.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2980.1559687500003,"end":2980.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2980.91534375,"end":2985.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2984.35784375,"end":2986.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2985.87659375,"end":3049.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3049.25909375,"end":3049.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3049.2928437500004,"end":3050.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3049.3097187500007,"end":3054.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3054.92909375,"end":3076.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3076.5290937500004,"end":3078.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3078.68909375,"end":3082.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3082.3172187500004,"end":3082.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3082.3847187500005,"end":3082.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3082.40159375,"end":3082.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3082.7559687500006,"end":3083.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3083.2284687500005,"end":3083.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3083.26221875,"end":3111.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3112.48971875,"end":3114.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3114.48096875,"end":3116.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3116.9109687500004,"end":3131.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3131.05221875,"end":3135.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3134.19096875,"end":3134.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3135.0684687500006,"end":3207.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3208.00221875,"end":3208.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3210.90471875,"end":3217.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3217.7559687500006,"end":3220.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3222.1603437500007,"end":3222.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3222.1940937500003,"end":3222.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3222.41346875,"end":3222.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3229.5515937500004,"end":3230.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3231.52596875,"end":3232.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3238.32659375,"end":3239.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3240.43596875,"end":3241.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3241.46534375,"end":3242.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3243.2372187500005,"end":3270.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3270.8278437500003,"end":3273.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3274.77659375,"end":3274.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3274.79346875,"end":3277.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3277.4597187500003,"end":3285.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3285.7284687500005,"end":3323.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3323.24159375,"end":3323.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3323.29221875,"end":3323.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3323.47784375,"end":3323.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3323.9334687500004,"end":3339.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3325.58721875,"end":3325.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3325.9922187500006,"end":3326.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3339.2897187500002,"end":3339.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3339.4247187500005,"end":3348.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3350.61284375,"end":3357.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3357.97034375,"end":3362.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3362.9315937500005,"end":3367.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3367.5722187500005,"end":3369.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3369.5465937500003,"end":3374.4572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3375.0309687500003,"end":3384.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3384.7509687500005,"end":3385.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3384.9872187500005,"end":3396.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3396.83346875,"end":3423.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3422.43284375,"end":3423.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3423.58034375,"end":3423.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3423.9684687500003,"end":3427.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3426.2128437500005,"end":3426.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3427.8834687500002,"end":3428.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3427.91721875,"end":3428.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3428.2715937500006,"end":3431.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3429.0309687500003,"end":3441.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3441.8053437500002,"end":3441.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3442.21034375,"end":3446.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3447.34034375,"end":3449.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3449.3653437500006,"end":3449.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3449.7872187500006,"end":3457.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3458.5115937500004,"end":3510.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3468.1472187500003,"end":3468.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.2147187500004,"end":3468.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3468.2653437500003,"end":3468.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.2822187500005,"end":3468.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3470.84721875,"end":3471.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3475.3190937500003,"end":3477.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3483.2840937500005,"end":3483.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3485.2078437500004,"end":3486.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3506.7403437500006,"end":3506.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3506.75721875,"end":3507.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3510.9590937500006,"end":3513.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3513.87846875,"end":3514.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3514.4522187500006,"end":3514.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3515.5153437500003,"end":3515.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3515.5322187500005,"end":3557.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3557.1628437500003,"end":3566.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3567.3722187500007,"end":3572.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3572.94096875,"end":3574.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3573.8184687500006,"end":3575.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3575.65784375,"end":3578.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3579.1847187500007,"end":3592.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3592.3640937500004,"end":3621.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3621.81096875,"end":3621.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3621.8278437500003,"end":3622.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3623.26221875,"end":3624.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3625.0847187500003,"end":3625.8947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3626.19846875,"end":3644.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3631.9022187500004,"end":3631.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3644.52471875,"end":3666.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3666.9684687500003,"end":3687.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3688.6697187500004,"end":3691.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3691.3190937500003,"end":3697.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3698.17034375,"end":3699.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3698.35596875,"end":3698.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3699.68909375,"end":3705.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3705.6628437500003,"end":3709.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3709.98284375,"end":3713.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3713.0372187500006,"end":3714.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3714.6065937500007,"end":3714.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3715.58534375,"end":3756.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3756.9628437500005,"end":3757.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3757.7897187500002,"end":3757.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3757.8065937500005,"end":3770.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3770.80034375,"end":3781.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3782.0897187500004,"end":3782.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3782.96721875,"end":3784.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3784.0303437500006,"end":3786.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3788.45159375,"end":3794.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3804.9890937500004,"end":3807.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3808.21221875,"end":3809.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3814.7090937500006,"end":3815.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3814.84409375,"end":3843.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3817.93221875,"end":3818.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3844.51034375,"end":3853.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3853.4540937500005,"end":3896.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3896.33346875,"end":3898.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3901.1934687500006,"end":3916.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3916.2628437500007,"end":3922.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3923.51909375,"end":3929.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3929.9315937500005,"end":3936.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3936.4453437500006,"end":3938.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3939.9384687500005,"end":3956.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3946.35096875,"end":3946.8234687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3956.66159375,"end":3964.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3964.9303437500002,"end":3965.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3965.0822187500007,"end":3967.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3968.2715937500006,"end":3970.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3972.8447187500005,"end":3973.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3973.0303437500006,"end":3990.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3988.84221875,"end":3994.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3994.86659375,"end":3994.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3994.93409375,"end":3994.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3994.9678437500006,"end":3997.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3997.9884687500007,"end":3998.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3998.00534375,"end":3998.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3998.6297187500004,"end":3998.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3998.6803437500002,"end":3998.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3998.91659375,"end":4039.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4039.9228437500005,"end":4042.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4043.6015937500006,"end":4052.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4051.6678437500004,"end":4055.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4054.60409375,"end":4065.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4064.61096875,"end":4075.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4075.7315937500007,"end":4076.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4076.0353437500007,"end":4076.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4076.96346875,"end":4077.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4077.0309687500003,"end":4077.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4077.90846875,"end":4094.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4092.3028437500006,"end":4118.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4118.96534375,"end":4124.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4124.247218750001,"end":4159.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4127.706593749999,"end":4129.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4129.46159375,"end":4129.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4134.692843750001,"end":4137.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4138.1522187499995,"end":4138.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4146.38721875,"end":4150.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4160.190968749999,"end":4161.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4162.04721875,"end":4168.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4167.362843749999,"end":4169.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4169.82659375,"end":4174.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4174.956593749999,"end":4183.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4177.622843749999,"end":4180.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4181.436593750001,"end":4199.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4197.61971875,"end":4201.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4201.38284375,"end":4216.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4216.65471875,"end":4217.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4218.00471875,"end":4225.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4226.003468749999,"end":4232.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4232.382218750001,"end":4232.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4232.567843750001,"end":4255.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4252.98659375,"end":4269.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4269.86159375,"end":4269.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4269.91221875,"end":4270.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4271.07659375,"end":4271.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4272.359093749999,"end":4276.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4277.0165937500005,"end":4288.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4288.45784375,"end":4291.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4288.491593750001,"end":4288.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4292.237843749999,"end":4292.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4292.6259687500005,"end":4292.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4292.92971875,"end":4292.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4292.96346875,"end":4293.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4297.36784375,"end":4297.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4298.44784375,"end":4298.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4298.4647187499995,"end":4313.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":4298.616593750001,"end":4299.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4307.64471875,"end":4308.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4313.82096875,"end":4315.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4315.84596875,"end":4320.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4320.554093750001,"end":4324.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4324.84034375,"end":4327.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4328.232218749999,"end":4333.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4334.155343750001,"end":4340.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4339.8759687500005,"end":4371.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4345.46159375,"end":4345.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4367.02784375,"end":4367.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4370.200343750001,"end":4374.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4375.262843750001,"end":4377.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4378.28346875,"end":4378.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4378.41846875,"end":4388.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4387.9022187499995,"end":4404.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4393.55534375,"end":4394.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4394.82096875,"end":4394.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4404.0009687500005,"end":4410.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4408.47284375,"end":4409.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4409.92409375,"end":4414.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4412.995343750001,"end":4416.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4416.404093749999,"end":4421.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4421.517218749999,"end":4422.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4423.05284375,"end":4426.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4427.339093750001,"end":4430.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4431.05159375,"end":4433.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4433.937218749999,"end":4439.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4440.079718749999,"end":4444.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4444.399718750001,"end":4448.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4448.989718750001,"end":4450.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4449.68159375,"end":4452.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4451.79096875,"end":4460.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4460.39721875,"end":4461.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4460.481593750001,"end":4461.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4462.37159375,"end":4477.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4475.02784375,"end":4475.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4476.512843750001,"end":4477.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4477.170968750001,"end":4478.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4478.419718749999,"end":4478.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4478.571593750001,"end":4478.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4478.97659375,"end":4482.081593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4481.82846875,"end":4487.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4487.430968750001,"end":4492.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4492.965968750001,"end":4498.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4498.28159375,"end":4501.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4501.57221875,"end":4503.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4503.782843749999,"end":4506.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4506.499718749999,"end":4508.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4508.49096875,"end":4510.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4510.83659375,"end":4512.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4513.114718750001,"end":4514.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4515.07221875,"end":4516.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4516.65846875,"end":4518.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4518.835343750001,"end":4519.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4520.3709687499995,"end":4523.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4523.72909375,"end":4524.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4525.19721875,"end":4526.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4527.779093749999,"end":4529.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4529.58471875,"end":4530.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4531.542218750001,"end":4533.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4533.48284375,"end":4534.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4535.339093750001,"end":4537.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4538.849093750001,"end":4540.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4540.78971875,"end":4543.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4543.439093749999,"end":4544.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4544.77221875,"end":4545.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4546.122218750001,"end":4547.472218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4547.59034375,"end":4549.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4549.37909375,"end":4550.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4550.69534375,"end":4552.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4552.51784375,"end":4553.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4554.81284375,"end":4556.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4557.462218750001,"end":4558.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4559.16659375,"end":4560.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4561.022843750001,"end":4568.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4569.34221875,"end":4571.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4571.468468749999,"end":4574.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4575.2147187499995,"end":4577.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4577.77971875,"end":4578.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4579.12971875,"end":4582.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4583.095343749999,"end":4585.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4586.014718750001,"end":4586.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4586.45346875,"end":4588.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4589.0184687500005,"end":4593.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4593.827843749999,"end":4599.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4594.1990937499995,"end":4595.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4599.784718749999,"end":4599.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4599.885968750001,"end":4600.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4600.03784375,"end":4603.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4600.05471875,"end":4600.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4600.71284375,"end":4600.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4603.9697187500005,"end":4607.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4607.850968750001,"end":4609.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4610.2978437500005,"end":4611.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4610.483468750001,"end":4611.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4611.968468749999,"end":4613.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4614.0947187500005,"end":4618.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4618.583468750001,"end":4624.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4624.74284375,"end":4625.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4626.075968749999,"end":4626.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4627.47659375,"end":4635.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4632.555968750001,"end":4632.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4632.5897187499995,"end":4633.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4633.028468750001,"end":4636.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4636.04909375,"end":4638.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4636.13346875,"end":4637.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4638.647843750001,"end":4639.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4640.014718750001,"end":4664.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4661.715968750001,"end":4661.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4663.4540937500005,"end":4665.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4665.42846875,"end":4667.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4668.16221875,"end":4669.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4669.51221875,"end":4674.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4675.350968750001,"end":4677.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4675.89096875,"end":4680.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4678.405343750001,"end":4678.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4680.548468749999,"end":4680.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4680.61596875,"end":4680.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4681.206593749999,"end":4693.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4691.010968750001,"end":4696.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4693.2215937500005,"end":4693.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4697.052218750001,"end":4722.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4701.05159375,"end":4701.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4701.06846875,"end":4701.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4701.10221875,"end":4701.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4701.6590937500005,"end":4701.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4704.57846875,"end":4705.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4715.54721875,"end":4716.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4721.470343749999,"end":4722.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4722.3309687500005,"end":4722.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4722.76971875,"end":4725.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4725.35159375,"end":4739.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4726.04346875,"end":4726.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4729.030343750001,"end":4729.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4736.421593749999,"end":4736.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4736.4384687500005,"end":4740.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4740.977843750001,"end":4741.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4742.479718750001,"end":4744.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4743.981593750001,"end":4744.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4744.352843750001,"end":4744.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4744.673468749999,"end":4744.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4744.74096875,"end":4744.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4744.89284375,"end":4745.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4745.26409375,"end":4747.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4747.4072187500005,"end":4748.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4749.4490937499995,"end":4749.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4750.5965937500005,"end":4751.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4751.45721875,"end":4756.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4756.60409375,"end":4757.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4758.71346875,"end":4761.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4761.936593750001,"end":4764.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4765.075343750001,"end":4766.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4766.6278437500005,"end":4772.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4772.92221875,"end":4774.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4774.7615937499995,"end":4775.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4775.655968749999,"end":4778.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4778.8622187500005,"end":4794.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4794.10034375,"end":4799.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4799.60159375,"end":4811.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4812.561593750001,"end":4820.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4820.96534375,"end":4820.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4821.53909375,"end":4824.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4824.76221875,"end":4828.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4835.241593750001,"end":4837.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4837.722218750001,"end":4839.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4842.19409375,"end":4843.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4843.915343750001,"end":4851.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4844.6747187500005,"end":4845.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4852.13346875,"end":4855.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4855.3397187499995,"end":4858.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4859.339093750001,"end":4875.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4876.720343749999,"end":4877.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4877.59784375,"end":4881.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4881.85034375,"end":4886.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4886.946593750001,"end":4887.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4887.11534375,"end":4924.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4924.45971875,"end":4943.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4944.01784375,"end":4944.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4944.91221875,"end":4954.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4954.733468750001,"end":4975.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4958.294093750001,"end":4958.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4976.35034375,"end":5008.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5008.9697187500005,"end":5018.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5018.03159375,"end":5024.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5026.350968750001,"end":5028.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5028.81471875,"end":5030.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5030.68784375,"end":5033.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5034.079718749999,"end":5058.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5057.35034375,"end":5058.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5059.1728437500005,"end":5061.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5060.995343750001,"end":5061.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5061.2822187500005,"end":5070.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5062.37909375,"end":5062.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5063.59409375,"end":5064.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5070.327218750001,"end":5079.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5078.612843750001,"end":5079.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5079.47346875,"end":5084.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5082.39284375,"end":5132.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5085.278468750001,"end":5085.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5134.70534375,"end":5135.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5136.561593750001,"end":5155.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5141.6747187500005,"end":5143.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5145.842843750001,"end":5146.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5146.028468750001,"end":5146.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5146.33221875,"end":5146.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5148.644093750001,"end":5148.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5148.67784375,"end":5148.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5148.694718750001,"end":5150.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5152.52534375,"end":5153.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5155.022843750001,"end":5157.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5157.0478437500005,"end":5160.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5160.794093750001,"end":5163.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5163.696593750001,"end":5164.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5163.932843750001,"end":5164.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5164.962218750001,"end":5196.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5196.61971875,"end":5238.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5219.232218749999,"end":5219.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5219.36721875,"end":5219.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5225.847218750001,"end":5225.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5229.036593750001,"end":5229.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5238.72284375,"end":5238.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5239.09409375,"end":5246.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5246.82284375,"end":5288.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5259.9853437500005,"end":5260.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5280.404093749999,"end":5280.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5280.420968750001,"end":5281.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5288.655968749999,"end":5297.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5296.46909375,"end":5352.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5303.4384687500005,"end":5303.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5303.472218750001,"end":5303.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5353.675343750001,"end":5368.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5359.868468750001,"end":5360.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5360.96534375,"end":5361.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5361.032843749999,"end":5361.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5361.640343749999,"end":5361.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5362.821593750001,"end":5362.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5367.327218750001,"end":5367.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5368.84596875,"end":5397.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5398.22534375,"end":5420.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5398.495343750001,"end":5398.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5398.680968750001,"end":5398.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5398.7147187499995,"end":5399.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5399.794718749999,"end":5400.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5420.804093750001,"end":5421.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5421.34409375,"end":5475.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5474.31471875,"end":5482.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5475.5634687500005,"end":5475.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5478.229718750001,"end":5478.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5481.638468749999,"end":5495.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5483.73096875,"end":5484.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5495.577218750001,"end":5495.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5495.83034375,"end":5507.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5495.91471875,"end":5495.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5496.77534375,"end":5496.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5503.592843750001,"end":5503.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5503.60971875,"end":5504.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5504.40284375,"end":5504.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5507.03534375,"end":5507.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5507.153468750001,"end":5508.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5507.2040937500005,"end":5508.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5508.85784375,"end":5514.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5520.72096875,"end":5520.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5520.974093750001,"end":5521.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5529.34409375,"end":5531.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5531.841593749999,"end":5533.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5539.249718749999,"end":5540.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5540.65034375,"end":5541.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5542.067843750001,"end":5544.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5544.835343750001,"end":5545.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5545.392218749999,"end":5558.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5559.128468750001,"end":5559.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5559.786593750001,"end":5562.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5563.110968749999,"end":5568.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5568.645968750001,"end":5568.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5569.388468749999,"end":5569.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5569.89471875,"end":5573.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5574.9403437500005,"end":5580.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5580.86346875,"end":5585.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5585.97659375,"end":5586.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5586.98909375,"end":5591.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5592.33846875,"end":5594.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5594.8865937499995,"end":5598.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5600.08409375,"end":5607.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5607.880343750001,"end":5607.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5608.403468750001,"end":5608.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5608.97721875,"end":5633.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5625.05909375,"end":5625.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5633.02409375,"end":5652.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5650.74284375,"end":5652.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5652.24471875,"end":5653.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5654.48909375,"end":5662.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5654.55659375,"end":5655.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5662.97721875,"end":5665.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5666.50409375,"end":5669.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5669.6259687500005,"end":5675.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5676.544718749999,"end":5680.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5680.98284375,"end":5681.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5681.74221875,"end":5684.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5686.38284375,"end":5686.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5686.399718750001,"end":5689.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5689.774718750001,"end":5690.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5690.888468749999,"end":5692.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5692.812218749999,"end":5692.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5694.38159375,"end":5694.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5694.39846875,"end":5695.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5695.27596875,"end":5714.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5712.876593749999,"end":5714.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5714.68221875,"end":5714.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5714.88471875,"end":5715.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5715.036593750001,"end":5719.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5720.35221875,"end":5723.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5723.64284375,"end":5724.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5724.216593749999,"end":5724.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5724.25034375,"end":5724.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5724.317843750001,"end":5724.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5724.4697187500005,"end":5728.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5724.48659375,"end":5726.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5726.68034375,"end":5728.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5728.65471875,"end":5728.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5728.722218750001,"end":5733.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5733.37971875,"end":5736.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5736.366593750001,"end":5738.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5741.02409375,"end":5747.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5747.6053437499995,"end":5754.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5754.99659375,"end":5758.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5758.27034375,"end":5761.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5761.51034375,"end":5767.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5767.38284375,"end":5767.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5770.487843750001,"end":5779.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5779.83659375,"end":5782.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5782.57034375,"end":5782.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5782.587218750001,"end":5789.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5790.5184687500005,"end":5799.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5800.55909375,"end":5802.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5802.972218750001,"end":5803.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5804.895968750001,"end":5806.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5806.448468750001,"end":5811.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5811.34221875,"end":5815.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5816.55659375,"end":5816.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5816.657843750001,"end":5816.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5816.97846875,"end":5817.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5818.04159375,"end":5819.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5820.96096875,"end":5820.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5820.99471875,"end":5821.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5824.84221875,"end":5825.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5825.432843750001,"end":5831.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5831.64284375,"end":5832.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5832.94221875,"end":5834.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5834.91659375,"end":5835.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5835.11909375,"end":5837.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5837.54909375,"end":5837.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5838.62909375,"end":5843.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5843.708468750001,"end":5844.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5844.872843749999,"end":5846.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5846.91471875,"end":5849.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5849.91846875,"end":5851.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5851.8084687499995,"end":5856.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5856.29721875,"end":5858.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5859.11534375,"end":5860.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5860.09409375,"end":5865.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5865.409718750001,"end":5866.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5868.61596875,"end":5869.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5869.915343750001,"end":5872.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5872.9697187500005,"end":5874.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5875.38284375,"end":5876.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5877.357218749999,"end":5877.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5878.200968749999,"end":5881.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5881.03596875,"end":5881.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5881.964093750001,"end":5887.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5887.296593749999,"end":5888.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5889.169718749999,"end":5898.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5899.159718750001,"end":5924.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5924.4384687500005,"end":5924.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5924.708468750001,"end":5924.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5925.2147187499995,"end":5927.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5927.475968750001,"end":5927.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5928.420968750001,"end":5929.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5929.60221875,"end":5933.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5934.20909375,"end":5936.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5936.55471875,"end":5937.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5937.21284375,"end":5939.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5940.233468750001,"end":5941.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5941.56659375,"end":5946.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5946.47721875,"end":5948.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5952.19784375,"end":5955.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5956.214093750001,"end":5960.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5961.462218750001,"end":5969.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5969.83221875,"end":5977.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5977.66221875,"end":5979.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5979.653468750001,"end":5984.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5984.6990937499995,"end":5989.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5990.36909375,"end":5990.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5991.29721875,"end":5992.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5992.815968750001,"end":5993.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5993.474093750001,"end":5993.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5994.4697187500005,"end":5994.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5994.58784375,"end":5994.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5994.790343750001,"end":5997.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5996.96721875,"end":5997.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5999.0428437499995,"end":6000.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5999.26221875,"end":5999.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6000.089093750001,"end":6024.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6024.929093750001,"end":6027.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6027.66284375,"end":6030.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6030.76784375,"end":6031.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6032.16846875,"end":6034.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6034.075343750001,"end":6035.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6035.35784375,"end":6036.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6036.70784375,"end":6039.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6038.091593749999,"end":6039.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6039.67784375,"end":6050.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6039.72846875,"end":6039.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6080.21159375,"end":6080.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6080.54909375,"end":6081.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6082.32096875,"end":6082.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6082.489718750001,"end":6082.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6083.55284375,"end":6084.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6085.08846875,"end":6085.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6089.982218749999,"end":6090.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6105.06846875,"end":6105.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6129.58784375,"end":6130.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6142.9697187500005,"end":6143.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6143.155343750001,"end":6143.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6161.97096875,"end":6162.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6162.966593749999,"end":6163.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6163.962218750001,"end":6164.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6164.012843750001,"end":6164.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6164.02971875,"end":6167.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6167.03346875,"end":6175.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6171.825968749999,"end":6171.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6171.842843750001,"end":6172.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6172.8553437499995,"end":6173.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6173.04096875,"end":6173.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6173.46284375,"end":6173.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6176.68596875,"end":6176.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6176.92221875,"end":6176.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6176.97284375,"end":6177.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6177.10784375,"end":6177.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6177.732218749999,"end":6177.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6177.968468749999,"end":6179.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6180.972218750001,"end":6181.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6181.731593750001,"end":6181.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6181.967843750001,"end":6182.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6182.760968750001,"end":6182.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6182.997218750001,"end":6183.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6183.655343750001,"end":6183.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6191.434718750001,"end":6192.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6192.126593750001,"end":6192.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6192.970343750001,"end":6193.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6193.965968750001,"end":6194.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6194.97846875,"end":6195.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6196.24409375,"end":6196.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6196.66596875,"end":6196.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6197.59409375,"end":6202.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6202.94346875,"end":6210.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6203.21346875,"end":6206.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6206.97659375,"end":6207.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6207.85409375,"end":6207.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6207.9384687500005,"end":6207.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6207.972218750001,"end":6208.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6208.00596875,"end":6209.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6210.182843750001,"end":6210.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6210.2840937500005,"end":6210.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6210.62159375,"end":6210.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6210.975968750001,"end":6211.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6211.6678437499995,"end":6212.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6211.88721875,"end":6211.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6211.920968750001,"end":6212.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6212.03909375,"end":6213.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6213.557843750001,"end":6213.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6213.8447187500005,"end":6214.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6214.70534375,"end":6214.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6214.80659375,"end":6214.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6220.965968750001,"end":6221.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6238.9715937500005,"end":6239.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6243.882218750001,"end":6243.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6243.966593749999,"end":6244.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6365.39909375,"end":6365.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6365.466593749999,"end":6365.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6365.5340937500005,"end":6365.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6404.17784375,"end":6404.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6520.9697187500005,"end":6521.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6522.80909375,"end":6524.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6526.538468750001,"end":6526.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6526.97721875,"end":6527.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6527.97284375,"end":6528.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6528.310343749999,"end":6528.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6528.3778437500005,"end":6528.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6537.743468750001,"end":6537.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6537.827843749999,"end":6537.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6539.86971875,"end":6541.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6541.962218750001,"end":6542.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6542.97471875,"end":6543.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6551.96909375,"end":6552.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6552.9647187499995,"end":6553.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6553.0322187500005,"end":6562.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6576.53909375,"end":6577.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6613.343468749999,"end":6613.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6626.624093750001,"end":6632.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6641.052218750001,"end":6642.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6642.975968750001,"end":6647.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6647.63346875,"end":6647.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6654.130343750001,"end":6654.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6654.95721875,"end":6655.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6655.66596875,"end":6668.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6660.86346875,"end":6661.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6668.8622187500005,"end":6673.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6671.528468750001,"end":6674.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6674.54909375,"end":6675.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6675.05534375,"end":6679.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6675.07221875,"end":6675.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6679.155968749999,"end":6680.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6681.2822187500005,"end":6682.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6681.34971875,"end":6681.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6682.9697187500005,"end":6701.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6702.139718750001,"end":6713.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6712.264718750001,"end":6713.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6713.96909375,"end":6714.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6714.036593750001,"end":6715.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6715.15034375,"end":6717.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6717.411593750001,"end":6732.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6717.462218750001,"end":6719.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6726.3553437499995,"end":6729.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6731.232218749999,"end":6738.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6734.286593750001,"end":6747.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6748.47846875,"end":6753.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6750.874718749999,"end":6754.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6754.1990937499995,"end":6757.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6757.388468749999,"end":6785.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6786.1434687500005,"end":6796.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6794.294093750001,"end":6795.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6796.84221875,"end":6831.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6832.212218750001,"end":6870.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6870.231593750001,"end":6884.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6884.4403437500005,"end":6885.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6885.368468750001,"end":6916.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6911.187218749999,"end":6911.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6913.04346875,"end":6913.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6915.94596875,"end":6931.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6928.112843750001,"end":6941.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6935.099093750001,"end":6935.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6935.149718750001,"end":6935.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6935.1834687499995,"end":6935.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6935.63909375,"end":6935.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6935.655968750001,"end":6935.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6935.68971875,"end":6935.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6940.09409375,"end":6945.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6942.33846875,"end":6966.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6967.026593750001,"end":6972.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6972.274718750001,"end":6975.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6976.442843750001,"end":6977.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6976.98284375,"end":6978.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6977.995343750001,"end":6992.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6978.06284375,"end":6978.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6988.52534375,"end":6988.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6988.542218750001,"end":6988.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6988.964093750001,"end":6989.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6994.904093749999,"end":6995.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6995.849093750001,"end":6996.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6997.57034375,"end":7069.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7070.470343750001,"end":7078.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7078.536593750001,"end":7110.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7111.22346875,"end":7119.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7116.640343750001,"end":7122.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7122.968468750001,"end":7128.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7128.53721875,"end":7165.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7129.769093750001,"end":7129.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7168.159718750001,"end":7181.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7175.2978437500005,"end":7175.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7175.31471875,"end":7175.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7175.77034375,"end":7176.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7176.02346875,"end":7183.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7182.368468750001,"end":7198.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7193.55659375,"end":7195.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7195.98659375,"end":7214.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7201.015343750001,"end":7201.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7209.216593749999,"end":7214.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7214.565968750001,"end":7221.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7223.054093750001,"end":7242.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7227.6103437500005,"end":7227.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7238.764718750001,"end":7239.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7239.99659375,"end":7240.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7240.030343750001,"end":7250.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7244.0634687500005,"end":7244.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7244.08034375,"end":7244.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7244.45159375,"end":7244.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7247.657843750001,"end":7247.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7250.93159375,"end":7257.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7252.7372187500005,"end":7252.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7252.75409375,"end":7252.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7252.97346875,"end":7253.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7253.142218750001,"end":7253.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7256.567843750001,"end":7256.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7257.10784375,"end":7257.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7257.124718750001,"end":7264.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7257.44534375,"end":7257.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7257.47909375,"end":7258.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7258.390343750001,"end":7258.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7264.482218749999,"end":7267.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7265.8153437500005,"end":7267.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7267.23284375,"end":7273.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7268.802218750001,"end":7274.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7273.29096875,"end":7273.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7274.55659375,"end":7274.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7274.82659375,"end":7274.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7274.843468750001,"end":7274.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7274.8603437500005,"end":7274.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7274.96159375,"end":7298.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7289.997218750001,"end":7290.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7290.030968750001,"end":7290.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7291.38096875,"end":7292.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7293.2372187500005,"end":7293.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7293.30471875,"end":7294.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7294.51971875,"end":7294.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7298.890343750001,"end":7301.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7312.255343750001,"end":7314.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7315.107218749999,"end":7315.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7320.01784375,"end":7320.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7320.81096875,"end":7409.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7410.029093749999,"end":7443.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7444.92659375,"end":7465.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7456.452218750001,"end":7456.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7463.3709687499995,"end":7463.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7465.395968750001,"end":7483.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7484.02596875,"end":7535.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7490.522843750001,"end":7490.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7490.97846875,"end":7490.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7495.33221875,"end":7496.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7496.22659375,"end":7497.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7497.39096875,"end":7497.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7499.196593750001,"end":7499.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7499.2978437500005,"end":7499.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7522.872218750001,"end":7523.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7529.2509687500005,"end":7529.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7535.714093750001,"end":7550.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7550.530343750001,"end":7556.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7550.96909375,"end":7552.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7553.010968750001,"end":7554.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7556.149718750001,"end":7679.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7679.202218750001,"end":7679.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7679.2528437500005,"end":7733.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7679.4384687500005,"end":7679.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7682.02034375,"end":7682.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7732.729718750001,"end":7733.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7733.53971875,"end":7780.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7750.1278437500005,"end":7750.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7753.1990937499995,"end":7753.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7781.0428437499995,"end":7781.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7781.8865937499995,"end":7787.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.4384687500005,"end":7787.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.48909375,"end":7787.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.50596875,"end":7787.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.522843750001,"end":7787.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.624093750001,"end":7787.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.6747187500005,"end":7787.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.809718750001,"end":7787.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.843468750001,"end":7787.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.87721875,"end":7787.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.96159375,"end":7787.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7787.97846875,"end":7787.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7787.995343750001,"end":7788.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7788.01221875,"end":7788.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7788.0965937500005,"end":7788.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7788.11346875,"end":7788.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7788.130343750001,"end":7788.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7788.180968750001,"end":7788.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7788.2147187499995,"end":7796.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7795.84221875,"end":7802.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7797.34409375,"end":7798.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7798.592843750001,"end":7801.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7803.638468749999,"end":7810.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7810.6415937500005,"end":7810.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7810.74284375,"end":7812.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7813.206593750001,"end":7818.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7817.8134687500005,"end":7831.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7831.110968750001,"end":7838.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7839.464093750001,"end":7840.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7840.729718750001,"end":7845.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7846.0790937500005,"end":7848.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7850.50034375,"end":7850.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7856.74409375,"end":7857.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7858.212218750001,"end":7859.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7859.984093750001,"end":7860.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7865.58659375,"end":7866.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7866.7509687500005,"end":7877.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7877.78721875,"end":7878.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7878.05721875,"end":7878.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7878.42846875,"end":7878.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7878.9178437499995,"end":7922.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7922.708468750001,"end":7924.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7927.38284375,"end":7929.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7929.6103437500005,"end":7935.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7931.6522187499995,"end":7933.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7933.03596875,"end":7940.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7935.280343750001,"end":7935.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7940.68034375,"end":7940.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7940.73096875,"end":7940.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7940.849093750001,"end":7940.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7940.86596875,"end":7941.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7941.05159375,"end":7955.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7941.25409375,"end":7942.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7955.479718750001,"end":7955.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7956.222218750001,"end":7969.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7966.7353437500005,"end":8011.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8011.3865937499995,"end":8016.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8018.72721875,"end":8019.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8019.452843750001,"end":8036.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8036.54721875,"end":8051.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8051.59971875,"end":8080.388468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8080.94534375,"end":8112.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8113.24409375,"end":8124.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8124.95534375,"end":8125.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8126.102843750001,"end":8179.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8139.653468750001,"end":8139.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8141.189093750001,"end":8141.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8179.84971875,"end":8204.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8204.84159375,"end":8205.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8206.15784375,"end":8221.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8221.14284375,"end":8221.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8221.429718750001,"end":8223.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8223.809093750002,"end":8228.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8228.972843750002,"end":8256.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8256.58034375,"end":8267.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8267.852843749999,"end":8268.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8268.91596875,"end":8269.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8270.02971875,"end":8271.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8271.54846875,"end":8312.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8314.20846875,"end":8316.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8317.262843750003,"end":8317.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8317.27971875,"end":8317.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8317.414718750002,"end":8317.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8317.80284375,"end":8317.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8317.85346875,"end":8318.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8318.039093750001,"end":8318.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8318.64659375,"end":8318.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8319.28784375,"end":8335.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8334.509093750003,"end":8341.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8338.710968750001,"end":8351.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8344.27971875,"end":8345.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8351.56971875,"end":8360.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8360.05784375,"end":8367.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8366.94284375,"end":8389.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8389.26846875,"end":8389.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8390.63534375,"end":8398.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8399.07284375,"end":8399.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8399.089718750001,"end":8403.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8402.144093750001,"end":8407.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8404.97909375,"end":8417.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8413.09596875,"end":8413.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8413.46721875,"end":8413.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8413.534718750001,"end":8413.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8416.69034375,"end":8416.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8417.196593750003,"end":8419.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8419.727843750003,"end":8431.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8431.48971875,"end":8445.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8445.884093750003,"end":8448.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8458.87784375,"end":8464.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8464.56471875,"end":8465.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8470.909718750001,"end":8559.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8559.891593750002,"end":8568.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8569.274093750002,"end":8573.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8573.324093750001,"end":8606.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8606.972843750002,"end":8625.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8625.67034375,"end":8662.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8666.96346875,"end":8671.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8671.40159375,"end":8703.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8704.25721875,"end":8716.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8712.492218750001,"end":8713.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8714.56784375,"end":8728.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8717.200343750003,"end":8717.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8729.637218750002,"end":8804.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8804.27534375,"end":8826.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8826.60096875,"end":8831.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8829.55409375,"end":8830.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8830.195343750001,"end":8830.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8832.28784375,"end":8836.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8836.92846875,"end":8843.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8841.92346875,"end":8864.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8864.434718750003,"end":8866.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8864.55284375,"end":8872.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8872.551593750002,"end":8898.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8898.57284375,"end":8908.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8907.938468750002,"end":8908.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8908.59659375,"end":8908.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8908.613468750002,"end":8908.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8908.63034375,"end":8945.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8945.97471875,"end":8950.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8952.82596875,"end":8953.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8953.29846875,"end":8962.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8962.512218750002,"end":8969.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8969.81909375,"end":8987.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8979.25221875,"end":8979.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8988.550343750001,"end":8988.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8988.972218750001,"end":9003.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9005.61096875,"end":9016.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9016.69784375,"end":9025.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9025.45596875,"end":9037.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9038.31471875,"end":9040.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9041.11596875,"end":9044.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9044.38971875,"end":9048.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9048.70971875,"end":9051.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9058.78409375,"end":9060.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9061.399718750003,"end":9062.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9067.06971875,"end":9068.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9067.91346875,"end":9067.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9068.89221875,"end":9075.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9075.794093750003,"end":9076.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9077.262218750002,"end":9080.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9079.23659375,"end":9079.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9079.624718750001,"end":9086.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9081.430343750002,"end":9082.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9086.644718750002,"end":9100.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9100.48221875,"end":9101.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9101.781593750002,"end":9105.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9108.29534375,"end":9112.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9112.56471875,"end":9117.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9118.09971875,"end":9122.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9122.352218750002,"end":9126.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9127.02659375,"end":9129.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9127.38096875,"end":9127.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9128.81534375,"end":9136.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9135.93659375,"end":9136.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9136.915343750003,"end":9139.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9139.480343750001,"end":9215.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9216.278468750003,"end":9220.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9220.51409375,"end":9226.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9226.74096875,"end":9228.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9229.27221875,"end":9254.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9255.10784375,"end":9257.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9257.63909375,"end":9285.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9284.74034375,"end":9291.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9291.49034375,"end":9294.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9294.730343750001,"end":9333.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9311.79096875,"end":9311.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9311.976593750001,"end":9312.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9318.051593750002,"end":9318.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9318.06846875,"end":9318.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9318.456593750001,"end":9318.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9318.473468750002,"end":9318.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9333.762218750002,"end":9363.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9364.20471875,"end":9376.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9376.624718750001,"end":9389.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9388.133468750002,"end":9388.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9388.605968750002,"end":9431.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9399.38909375,"end":9400.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9432.210968750001,"end":9435.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9435.87284375,"end":9438.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9438.960968750001,"end":9440.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9440.68221875,"end":9464.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9465.15096875,"end":9471.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9472.06971875,"end":9485.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9485.62034375,"end":9495.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9496.53846875,"end":9496.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9496.977218750002,"end":9497.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9497.027843750002,"end":9498.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9498.47909375,"end":9503.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9499.508468750002,"end":9499.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9499.96409375,"end":9500.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9500.554718750001,"end":9501.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9501.01034375,"end":9501.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9501.027218750001,"end":9501.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9501.044093750003,"end":9501.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9503.929718750001,"end":9504.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9504.75659375,"end":9504.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9504.891593750002,"end":9505.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9505.043468750002,"end":9505.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9505.144718750002,"end":9505.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9505.16159375,"end":9505.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9506.190968750001,"end":9508.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9508.11471875,"end":9508.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9508.85721875,"end":9508.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9508.90784375,"end":9523.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9522.62721875,"end":9523.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9523.96034375,"end":9553.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9531.047843750002,"end":9532.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9548.226593750001,"end":9549.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9551.88846875,"end":9582.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9582.027218750001,"end":9594.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9582.094718750002,"end":9584.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9594.379718750002,"end":9611.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9611.035343750002,"end":9612.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9612.38534375,"end":9614.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9613.617218750001,"end":9613.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9614.258468750002,"end":9614.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":9614.27534375,"end":9614.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9616.38471875,"end":9620.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9620.62034375,"end":9629.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9630.15471875,"end":9634.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9634.457843750002,"end":9635.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9636.90471875,"end":9639.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9642.96284375,"end":9643.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9643.587218750003,"end":9644.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9644.97096875,"end":9645.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9647.485343750002,"end":9655.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9654.640343750001,"end":9658.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9656.547218750002,"end":9657.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9659.16284375,"end":9659.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9659.88846875,"end":9662.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9662.33534375,"end":9663.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9664.42784375,"end":9666.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9666.70596875,"end":9670.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9668.258468750002,"end":9668.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9670.148468750001,"end":9671.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9671.24534375,"end":9671.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9671.582843750002,"end":9679.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9678.67034375,"end":9679.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9679.649093750002,"end":9684.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9685.57221875,"end":9690.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9688.05284375,"end":9689.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9690.921593750001,"end":9693.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9693.38534375,"end":9693.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9693.80721875,"end":9698.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9697.418468750002,"end":9699.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9698.59971875,"end":9704.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9704.55659375,"end":9704.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9704.57346875,"end":9708.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9709.51784375,"end":9709.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9709.905968750001,"end":9713.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9713.753468750001,"end":9717.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9715.137218750002,"end":9715.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9718.05659375,"end":9718.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9719.102843750003,"end":9719.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9719.457218750002,"end":9720.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9721.465343750002,"end":9727.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9728.316593750002,"end":9731.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9731.57346875,"end":9736.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9737.226593750001,"end":9738.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9738.94784375,"end":9742.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9743.21721875,"end":9782.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9750.69284375,"end":9752.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9782.687843750002,"end":9782.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9782.70471875,"end":9782.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9782.940968750001,"end":9783.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9783.02534375,"end":9790.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9789.57284375,"end":9791.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9791.14221875,"end":9797.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9794.11221875,"end":9795.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9797.554718750001,"end":9799.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9799.832843750002,"end":9812.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9812.843468750001,"end":9815.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9816.235343750002,"end":9828.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9828.891593750002,"end":9830.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9831.11909375,"end":9834.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9835.18596875,"end":9836.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9836.940968750001,"end":9837.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9838.45971875,"end":9840.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9841.530968750001,"end":9842.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9843.167843750001,"end":9862.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9862.45596875,"end":9865.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9865.594718750002,"end":9868.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9869.222843750002,"end":9869.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9870.50534375,"end":9872.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9872.36159375,"end":9875.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9876.124718750001,"end":9877.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9878.301593750002,"end":9878.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9878.90909375,"end":9879.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9879.668468750002,"end":9881.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9881.727218750002,"end":9883.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9884.984093750001,"end":9888.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9889.540343750003,"end":9894.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9894.51846875,"end":9901.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9902.230343750001,"end":9904.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9904.94721875,"end":9909.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9909.55409375,"end":9910.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9910.313468750002,"end":9911.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9911.54534375,"end":9912.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9913.43534375,"end":9914.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9914.65034375,"end":9917.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9918.07596875,"end":9919.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9919.78034375,"end":9920.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9920.961593750002,"end":9925.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9925.821593750003,"end":9933.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9934.12409375,"end":9937.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9937.80284375,"end":9944.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9945.09284375,"end":9959.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9961.37721875,"end":9962.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9962.187218750001,"end":9987.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9987.938468750002,"end":9989.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9989.74409375,"end":9995.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9995.80221875,"end":9998.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9998.97471875,"end":10008.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10008.35721875,"end":10020.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10021.08096875,"end":10030.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10031.40846875,"end":10032.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10032.488468750002,"end":10060.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10061.46284375,"end":10062.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10062.88034375,"end":10065.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10066.27221875,"end":10067.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10068.26346875,"end":10068.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10069.782218750002,"end":10071.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10071.43596875,"end":10073.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10073.460968750001,"end":10093.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10094.01471875,"end":10101.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10101.81096875,"end":10105.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10105.75971875,"end":10106.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10106.45159375,"end":10107.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10107.56534375,"end":10113.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10113.52221875,"end":10114.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10114.51784375,"end":10126.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10126.195343750001,"end":10140.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10140.977843750003,"end":10141.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10141.028468750003,"end":10141.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10142.63159375,"end":10153.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10153.44846875,"end":10153.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10153.53284375,"end":10155.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10155.405968750001,"end":10157.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10157.02596875,"end":10166.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10157.49846875,"end":10158.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10162.25721875,"end":10163.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10164.46784375,"end":10165.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10166.10471875,"end":10169.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10168.281593750002,"end":10168.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10169.024093750002,"end":10169.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10169.294093750003,"end":10171.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10169.42909375,"end":10179.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10177.49534375,"end":10177.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10177.96784375,"end":10178.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10178.22096875,"end":10178.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10179.70596875,"end":10183.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10184.80221875,"end":10188.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10197.03659375,"end":10198.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10198.977218750002,"end":10199.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10199.280968750001,"end":10199.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10199.90534375,"end":10200.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10201.289093750001,"end":10202.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10203.027218750001,"end":10204.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10203.769718750002,"end":10203.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10203.921593750001,"end":10205.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10204.984718750002,"end":10205.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10205.085968750001,"end":10205.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10206.098468750002,"end":10209.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10207.48221875,"end":10207.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10209.574718750002,"end":10212.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10212.44346875,"end":10212.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10212.66284375,"end":10215.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10212.679718750001,"end":10212.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10214.265968750002,"end":10214.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10215.61596875,"end":10215.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10216.24034375,"end":10217.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10217.77596875,"end":10218.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10219.24409375,"end":10222.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10222.500968750002,"end":10225.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10225.977218750002,"end":10237.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10237.65471875,"end":10240.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10240.35471875,"end":10241.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10240.65846875,"end":10241.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10241.60346875,"end":10242.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10243.172843750002,"end":10248.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10248.977843750003,"end":10249.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10250.226593750001,"end":10250.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10250.243468750003,"end":10251.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10251.914093750001,"end":10267.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10268.215343750002,"end":10279.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10280.09534375,"end":10302.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10302.82596875,"end":10304.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10304.817218750002,"end":10312.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10313.558468750001,"end":10331.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10331.36159375,"end":10335.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10335.495968750001,"end":10339.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10339.44471875,"end":10340.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10341.520343750002,"end":10351.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10351.45971875,"end":10358.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10358.47971875,"end":10371.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10372.38471875,"end":10381.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10381.46346875,"end":10385.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10385.226593750001,"end":10396.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10397.00534375,"end":10402.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10402.40534375,"end":10403.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10403.907218750002,"end":10406.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10407.14721875,"end":10408.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10408.649093750002,"end":10411.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10411.14659375,"end":10415.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10415.93909375,"end":10419.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10419.22971875,"end":10421.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10421.37284375,"end":10429.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10429.945343750001,"end":10431.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10432.054718750001,"end":10437.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10437.488468750002,"end":10443.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10443.79971875,"end":10456.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10457.08034375,"end":10459.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10460.45534375,"end":10461.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10461.56909375,"end":10464.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10464.758468750002,"end":10478.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10479.000968750002,"end":10482.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10482.409718750001,"end":10484.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10484.92409375,"end":10493.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10493.378468750001,"end":10494.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10495.184093750002,"end":10496.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10496.399093750002,"end":10498.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10499.95971875,"end":10500.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10500.972218750001,"end":10512.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10513.004093750002,"end":10515.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10516.19346875,"end":10519.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10519.500968750002,"end":10523.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10524.175343750001,"end":10526.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10526.284718750001,"end":10528.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10528.84971875,"end":10530.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10530.60471875,"end":10535.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10535.71784375,"end":10541.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10541.438468750002,"end":10542.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10543.34534375,"end":10545.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10546.382843750001,"end":10551.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10551.293468750002,"end":10555.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10555.17471875,"end":10562.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10562.835968750001,"end":10573.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10573.61909375,"end":10591.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10591.253468750001,"end":10593.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10595.82659375,"end":10596.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10596.636593750001,"end":10606.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10606.440968750001,"end":10611.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10611.250343750002,"end":10631.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10631.702843750001,"end":10636.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10637.254718750002,"end":10642.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10642.418468750002,"end":10647.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10647.41346875,"end":10663.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10671.257843750001,"end":10672.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10671.578468750002,"end":10674.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10672.540343750003,"end":10672.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10672.590968750003,"end":10673.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10674.312218750001,"end":10674.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10674.41346875,"end":10678.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10674.71721875,"end":10675.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10680.336593750002,"end":10681.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10682.074718750002,"end":10690.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10691.929718750001,"end":10692.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10692.95909375,"end":10695.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10697.75159375,"end":10710.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10710.120968750001,"end":10710.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10711.015343750001,"end":10715.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10715.520968750003,"end":10715.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10715.723468750002,"end":10718.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10718.22096875,"end":10723.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10718.237843750001,"end":10718.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10723.90784375,"end":10725.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10725.747218750003,"end":10726.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10727.485343750002,"end":10728.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10728.750968750002,"end":10728.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10729.51034375,"end":10745.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10745.27159375,"end":10750.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10750.82346875,"end":10751.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10752.44346875,"end":10756.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10757.23596875,"end":10760.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10760.77971875,"end":10762.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10762.028468750003,"end":10764.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10765.335968750001,"end":10766.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10767.765968750002,"end":10771.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10771.309718750003,"end":10771.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10772.22096875,"end":10772.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10772.96346875,"end":10791.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10794.95159375,"end":10797.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10799.879093750002,"end":10804.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10804.18221875,"end":10804.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10804.300343750001,"end":10809.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10809.430343750002,"end":10811.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10812.012218750002,"end":10814.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10815.134093750003,"end":10816.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10817.63159375,"end":10821.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10822.187843750002,"end":10823.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10823.43659375,"end":10824.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10825.90034375,"end":10828.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10829.680343750002,"end":10833.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10833.96659375,"end":10837.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10838.25284375,"end":10839.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10840.14284375,"end":10840.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10840.395968750003,"end":10842.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10842.37034375,"end":10843.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10845.390968750002,"end":10848.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10848.68159375,"end":10849.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10852.69784375,"end":10853.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10854.48659375,"end":10861.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10861.75971875,"end":10863.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10864.18971875,"end":10889.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10890.61596875,"end":10901.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10901.820968750002,"end":10911.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10913.27909375,"end":10915.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10915.03409375,"end":10915.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10915.13534375,"end":10917.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10915.18596875,"end":10915.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10915.219718750002,"end":10915.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10915.371593750002,"end":10915.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10915.40534375,"end":10915.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10915.422218750002,"end":10915.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10916.012843750003,"end":10922.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10919.82659375,"end":10919.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10919.843468750001,"end":10919.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10919.894093750001,"end":10919.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10923.555968750003,"end":10927.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10925.969093750002,"end":10926.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10927.808468750001,"end":10927.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10927.89284375,"end":10927.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10927.977218750002,"end":10932.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10932.73596875,"end":10941.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10941.780968750001,"end":10948.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10948.227218750002,"end":10948.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10948.24409375,"end":10951.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10949.72909375,"end":10950.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10950.77534375,"end":10952.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10952.074718750002,"end":10958.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10958.706593750001,"end":10967.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10968.831593750001,"end":10998.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10998.379718750002,"end":11002.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11002.21034375,"end":11004.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11004.977843750003,"end":11017.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11018.258468750002,"end":11024.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11018.76471875,"end":11019.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11025.07596875,"end":11028.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11029.26096875,"end":11047.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11047.637843750003,"end":11050.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11050.38846875,"end":11076.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11077.574093750001,"end":11086.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11086.73721875,"end":11091.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11089.015343750001,"end":11107.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11104.33784375,"end":11107.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11107.594718750002,"end":11143.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11109.383468750002,"end":11109.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11143.707218750002,"end":11152.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11152.90409375,"end":11155.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11156.110343750002,"end":11161.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11161.442843750003,"end":11164.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11164.66596875,"end":11170.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11172.546593750001,"end":11172.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11174.79096875,"end":11175.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11175.70221875,"end":11182.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11186.012843750003,"end":11191.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11191.750343750002,"end":11200.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11201.622218750003,"end":11207.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11207.66346875,"end":11209.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11211.105968750002,"end":11213.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11214.24471875,"end":11216.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11217.45096875,"end":11219.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11221.230968750002,"end":11246.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11247.20159375,"end":11253.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11251.47096875,"end":11251.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11251.487843750001,"end":11262.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11259.90846875,"end":11262.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11262.945968750002,"end":11268.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11262.97971875,"end":11263.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11269.29096875,"end":11274.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11275.29846875,"end":11282.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11282.33534375,"end":11283.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11283.31409375,"end":11284.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11283.43221875,"end":11285.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11285.49096875,"end":11293.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11293.01721875,"end":11293.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11293.101593750001,"end":11293.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11293.30409375,"end":11293.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11293.320968750002,"end":11293.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11293.33784375,"end":11294.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11293.38846875,"end":11296.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11295.902843750002,"end":11296.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11296.274093750002,"end":11305.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11299.395968750003,"end":11300.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11304.914093750001,"end":11314.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11308.508468750002,"end":11311.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11311.15784375,"end":11311.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11314.97159375,"end":11321.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11322.059093750002,"end":11326.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11322.177218750003,"end":11322.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11322.362843750001,"end":11322.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11325.704093750002,"end":11337.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11337.870968750001,"end":11345.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11346.03846875,"end":11348.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11349.379718750002,"end":11352.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11354.864093750002,"end":11357.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11358.390968750002,"end":11363.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11363.605343750001,"end":11370.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11369.579093750002,"end":11379.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11380.919093750003,"end":11381.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11383.14659375,"end":11383.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11384.395343750002,"end":11391.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11392.10721875,"end":11392.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11392.91721875,"end":11394.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11394.55409375,"end":11394.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11395.00971875,"end":11405.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11398.75596875,"end":11398.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11403.71721875,"end":11403.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11403.784718750001,"end":11405.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11405.18534375,"end":11405.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11406.231593750003,"end":11408.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11408.003468750001,"end":11408.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11408.20596875,"end":11408.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11409.657218750002,"end":11420.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11420.777843750002,"end":11425.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11426.954093750002,"end":11433.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11440.16721875,"end":11461.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11462.273468750001,"end":11478.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11479.688468750002,"end":11481.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11482.40534375,"end":11498.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11499.465968750003,"end":11505.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11505.996593750002,"end":11535.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11536.40534375,"end":11550.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11550.867218750001,"end":11552.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11552.41971875,"end":11552.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11552.706593750001,"end":11562.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11562.86534375,"end":11578.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11567.337218750003,"end":11567.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11567.421593750001,"end":11567.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11567.50596875,"end":11567.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11579.200343750003,"end":11579.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11579.250968750002,"end":11579.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11579.301593750002,"end":11579.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11579.31846875,"end":11579.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11579.453468750002,"end":11579.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11579.79096875,"end":11588.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11588.66721875,"end":11592.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11589.780968750001,"end":11590.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11593.08846875,"end":11594.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11594.438468750002,"end":11595.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11597.121593750002,"end":11599.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11600.327843750001,"end":11607.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11607.769718750002,"end":11609.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11610.38534375,"end":11613.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11614.215968750003,"end":11614.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11616.07221875,"end":11626.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11626.551593750002,"end":11630.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11631.124718750001,"end":11654.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11654.445968750002,"end":11654.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11655.188468750002,"end":11662.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11662.765343750001,"end":11671.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11672.215343750002,"end":11692.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11693.12346875,"end":11693.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11694.13596875,"end":11702.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11703.315968750001,"end":11704.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11704.024718750003,"end":11721.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11721.827843750001,"end":11737.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11722.789718750002,"end":11723.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11723.97096875,"end":11723.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11737.31909375,"end":11737.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11738.88846875,"end":11747.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11749.317218750002,"end":11751.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11751.88221875,"end":11759.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11760.15096875,"end":11769.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11769.195968750002,"end":11769.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11770.27596875,"end":11777.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11777.29596875,"end":11783.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11778.86534375,"end":11779.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11781.700343750003,"end":11783.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11783.15159375,"end":11783.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11783.168468750002,"end":11783.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11783.219093750002,"end":11800.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11783.269718750002,"end":11783.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11783.30346875,"end":11783.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11783.337218750003,"end":11783.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11783.40471875,"end":11784.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11800.49909375,"end":11801.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11801.882843750001,"end":11807.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11805.81471875,"end":11828.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11830.570343750001,"end":11834.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11833.742843750002,"end":11848.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11848.15409375,"end":11853.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11854.11096875,"end":11861.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11861.97471875,"end":11863.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11864.25284375,"end":11864.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11864.792843750001,"end":11865.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11865.957218750002,"end":11867.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11867.13846875,"end":11867.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11867.72909375,"end":11879.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11870.699093750001,"end":11870.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11870.715968750003,"end":11871.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11874.10784375,"end":11875.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11880.300968750002,"end":11881.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11881.245968750001,"end":11881.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11881.92096875,"end":11883.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11883.034718750001,"end":11893.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11894.89784375,"end":11895.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11896.281593750002,"end":11898.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11902.84596875,"end":11904.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11905.343468750001,"end":11911.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11909.781593750002,"end":11909.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11909.832218750002,"end":11910.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11911.739093750002,"end":11912.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11912.65034375,"end":11915.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11915.13096875,"end":11917.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11917.324718750002,"end":11938.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11919.906593750002,"end":11920.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11921.070968750002,"end":11924.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11924.26034375,"end":11924.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11939.110343750002,"end":11942.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11940.696593750003,"end":11956.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11943.801593750002,"end":11943.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11943.902843750002,"end":11943.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11943.953468750002,"end":11943.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11957.976593750001,"end":11958.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11958.972218750001,"end":11979.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11979.812843750002,"end":11985.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11982.25971875,"end":11982.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11982.462218750003,"end":11982.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11983.255343750003,"end":11983.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11985.027218750001,"end":11985.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11985.938468750002,"end":11996.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11995.70909375,"end":11996.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11996.637218750002,"end":12003.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11996.755343750003,"end":11997.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12004.36596875,"end":12011.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12012.870968750001,"end":12013.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12013.934093750002,"end":12016.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12017.91659375,"end":12017.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12017.933468750001,"end":12017.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12017.96721875,"end":12018.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12018.034718750001,"end":12033.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12018.18659375,"end":12018.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12033.390968750002,"end":12033.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12033.40784375,"end":12033.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12033.42471875,"end":12041.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12038.16659375,"end":12038.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12040.512218750002,"end":12045.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12046.671593750001,"end":12048.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12047.110343750002,"end":12048.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12049.35471875,"end":12049.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12050.046593750001,"end":12050.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12050.468468750001,"end":12050.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12050.856593750003,"end":12051.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12052.004093750002,"end":12052.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12052.847843750002,"end":12058.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12057.336593750002,"end":12057.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12059.10846875,"end":12059.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12060.289718750002,"end":12060.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12060.30659375,"end":12063.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12060.74534375,"end":12063.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12063.47909375,"end":12064.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12064.086593750002,"end":12068.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12064.54221875,"end":12065.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12065.031593750002,"end":12065.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12066.617843750002,"end":12066.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12066.668468750002,"end":12066.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12066.769718750002,"end":12066.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12068.11971875,"end":12068.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12068.38971875,"end":12068.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12068.42346875,"end":12068.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12069.942218750002,"end":12076.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12077.23221875,"end":12078.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12078.379718750002,"end":12078.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12078.750968750002,"end":12080.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12080.016593750002,"end":12081.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12081.636593750001,"end":12084.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12084.690968750001,"end":12099.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12099.96284375,"end":12101.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12101.059718750003,"end":12104.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12103.72596875,"end":12107.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12105.02534375,"end":12105.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12105.632843750001,"end":12114.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12114.52596875,"end":12134.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12135.214718750001,"end":12135.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12136.76721875,"end":12138.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12139.83846875,"end":12148.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12140.344718750002,"end":12140.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12148.86659375,"end":12162.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12164.93159375,"end":12166.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12167.614718750003,"end":12168.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12168.812843750002,"end":12172.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12172.980968750002,"end":12174.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12174.786593750003,"end":12185.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12185.56971875,"end":12188.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12187.03784375,"end":12187.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12187.105343750001,"end":12187.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12187.122218750003,"end":12187.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12187.18971875,"end":12187.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12187.35846875,"end":12187.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12189.41721875,"end":12190.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12191.290343750003,"end":12226.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12226.69409375,"end":12230.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12230.828468750002,"end":12230.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12230.84534375,"end":12235.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12235.418468750002,"end":12242.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12237.308468750001,"end":12240.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12241.105343750001,"end":12248.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12248.53034375,"end":12272.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12272.965343750002,"end":12273.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12274.14659375,"end":12276.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12277.015343750001,"end":12281.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12280.440968750001,"end":12284.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12283.74846875,"end":12293.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12291.24096875,"end":12298.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12299.070968750002,"end":12300.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12300.42096875,"end":12302.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12302.58096875,"end":12305.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12305.53409375,"end":12307.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12307.32284375,"end":12310.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12310.49534375,"end":12347.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12347.56971875,"end":12353.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12353.442218750002,"end":12360.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12361.10346875,"end":12367.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12367.43159375,"end":12386.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12387.884093750003,"end":12408.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12408.066593750002,"end":12415.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12416.183468750001,"end":12427.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12427.97909375,"end":12436.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12436.450343750003,"end":12450.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12450.97971875,"end":12465.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12474.030968750001,"end":12474.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12474.149093750002,"end":12474.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12476.612843750001,"end":12477.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12488.965343750002,"end":12490.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12490.83846875,"end":12496.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12496.91346875,"end":12497.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12498.11159375,"end":12505.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12502.97159375,"end":12503.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12512.08409375,"end":12512.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12512.97846875,"end":12513.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12514.83471875,"end":12514.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12514.969718750002,"end":12519.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12519.914093750001,"end":12521.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12521.871593750002,"end":12523.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12523.812218750001,"end":12527.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12528.16596875,"end":12528.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12528.503468750001,"end":12530.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12529.02659375,"end":12529.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12531.08534375,"end":12531.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12531.321593750003,"end":12531.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12532.60409375,"end":12536.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12533.093468750001,"end":12533.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12535.422218750002,"end":12535.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12537.531593750002,"end":12538.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12542.67846875,"end":12546.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12546.964718750001,"end":12552.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12552.044093750003,"end":12553.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12553.05659375,"end":12554.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12553.259093750003,"end":12553.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12554.828468750002,"end":12554.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12555.925343750001,"end":12556.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12556.60034375,"end":12557.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12557.64659375,"end":12557.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12557.74784375,"end":12558.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12578.149718750003,"end":12578.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12578.875343750002,"end":12579.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12579.989093750002,"end":12580.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12580.96784375,"end":12581.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12581.06909375,"end":12581.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12584.579093750002,"end":12584.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12605.976593750001,"end":12606.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12606.972218750001,"end":12608.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12608.54159375,"end":12611.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12612.22034375,"end":12613.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12613.45221875,"end":12614.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12614.92034375,"end":12616.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12616.320968750002,"end":12617.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12618.41346875,"end":12619.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12619.155968750001,"end":12620.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12619.172843750002,"end":12619.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12619.29096875,"end":12619.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12619.61159375,"end":12619.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12619.93221875,"end":12620.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12620.708468750003,"end":12620.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12620.742218750001,"end":12620.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12620.742218750001,"end":12622.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12620.94471875,"end":12621.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12622.73346875,"end":12623.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12623.10471875,"end":12630.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12624.117218750001,"end":12626.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12626.68221875,"end":12626.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12631.440968750001,"end":12631.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12631.862843750001,"end":12632.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12634.84971875,"end":12636.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12636.621593750002,"end":12637.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12637.97159375,"end":12638.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12639.743468750003,"end":12639.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12649.41284375,"end":12652.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12652.855343750001,"end":12656.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12666.456593750001,"end":12670.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12670.962218750003,"end":12671.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12671.60346875,"end":12673.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12673.544093750003,"end":12673.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12673.965968750003,"end":12674.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12674.742218750001,"end":12674.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12675.04596875,"end":12675.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12675.130343750003,"end":12675.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12676.56471875,"end":12677.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12677.05409375,"end":12677.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12683.972843750002,"end":12684.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12684.78284375,"end":12684.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12684.968468750001,"end":12685.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12685.96409375,"end":12686.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12686.26784375,"end":12686.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12686.301593750002,"end":12686.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12686.976593750001,"end":12687.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12687.22971875,"end":12688.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12689.17034375,"end":12690.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12696.13971875,"end":12696.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12710.702843750001,"end":12713.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":12714.044093750003,"end":12714.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12717.95909375,"end":12718.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12719.74784375,"end":12720.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12727.965968750003,"end":12727.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12741.48284375,"end":12742.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12747.996593750002,"end":12748.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12758.99909375,"end":12764.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12764.53409375,"end":12768.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12773.44409375,"end":12781.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12780.750968750002,"end":12781.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12785.50971875,"end":12786.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12786.707843750002,"end":12789.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12790.133468750002,"end":12861.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12861.970343750003,"end":12862.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12862.13909375,"end":12882.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12882.92909375,"end":12888.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12888.29534375,"end":12901.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12902.200343750003,"end":12903.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12903.921593750001,"end":12904.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12904.815968750001,"end":12906.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12906.790343750003,"end":12907.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12908.460968750001,"end":12939.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12940.219718750002,"end":12945.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12946.26096875,"end":12947.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12949.46721875,"end":12967.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12967.101593750001,"end":12987.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12968.535968750002,"end":12968.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12969.04221875,"end":12970.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12987.689093750003,"end":12999.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12988.43159375,"end":12989.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12999.383468750002,"end":12999.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13000.109093750001,"end":13007.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13007.027843750002,"end":13007.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13007.36534375,"end":13007.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13007.68596875,"end":13017.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13017.08534375,"end":13019.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13018.418468750002,"end":13028.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13028.47596875,"end":13042.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13043.59596875,"end":13046.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13045.65471875,"end":13051.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13051.88159375,"end":13051.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13051.949093750001,"end":13058.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13051.999718750001,"end":13052.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13057.16346875,"end":13060.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13060.015343750001,"end":13070.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13060.032218750002,"end":13061.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13071.034718750001,"end":13072.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13072.789718750002,"end":13078.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13079.337218750003,"end":13081.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13082.03721875,"end":13094.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13095.773468750001,"end":13120.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13120.613468750002,"end":13140.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13140.340343750002,"end":13143.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13144.49159375,"end":13145.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13145.95971875,"end":13146.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13146.68534375,"end":13149.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13149.925343750001,"end":13158.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13158.39659375,"end":13161.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13162.058468750001,"end":13168.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13168.58909375,"end":13169.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13170.597218750001,"end":13176.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13176.824093750001,"end":13177.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13178.07284375,"end":13178.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13179.06846875,"end":13180.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13180.890968750002,"end":13181.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13183.33784375,"end":13185.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13186.24034375,"end":13208.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13208.464718750001,"end":13209.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13209.645968750003,"end":13212.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13214.421593750001,"end":13260.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13259.157218750002,"end":13264.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13262.34659375,"end":13262.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13263.004718750002,"end":13263.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13263.07221875,"end":13273.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13264.624718750001,"end":13264.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13273.36596875,"end":13273.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13273.922843750002,"end":13286.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13296.653468750003,"end":13297.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13298.50971875,"end":13299.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13304.179718750001,"end":13304.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13305.462218750003,"end":13308.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13309.039718750002,"end":13311.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13311.570968750002,"end":13312.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13313.140343750001,"end":13315.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13316.110343750002,"end":13317.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13317.747218750003,"end":13318.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13318.439093750003,"end":13319.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13320.02534375,"end":13321.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13321.054718750001,"end":13323.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13321.08846875,"end":13321.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13324.61534375,"end":13329.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13329.610343750002,"end":13333.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13334.11596875,"end":13336.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13336.410968750002,"end":13338.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13338.419093750003,"end":13338.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13338.90846875,"end":13343.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13343.92034375,"end":13346.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13347.71721875,"end":13361.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13362.48284375,"end":13367.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13368.01784375,"end":13368.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13369.536593750003,"end":13370.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13372.82721875,"end":13375.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13376.13471875,"end":13378.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13378.969718750002,"end":13381.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13382.09159375,"end":13384.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13384.487843750001,"end":13384.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13385.922218750002,"end":13391.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13391.91284375,"end":13400.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13400.45159375,"end":13405.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13406.45909375,"end":13408.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13408.41659375,"end":13423.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13423.637843750003,"end":13425.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13425.51096875,"end":13426.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13428.49784375,"end":13430.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13430.235968750003,"end":13430.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13431.062843750002,"end":13438.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13439.618468750003,"end":13443.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13444.10721875,"end":13466.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13466.48346875,"end":13468.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13468.05284375,"end":13472.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13473.402218750001,"end":13477.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13477.50284375,"end":13484.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13486.480343750001,"end":13497.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13497.786593750003,"end":13512.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13512.434093750002,"end":13522.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13522.69409375,"end":13536.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13535.940968750001,"end":13540.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13541.222843750002,"end":13565.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13566.484718750002,"end":13568.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13568.965343750002,"end":13584.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13584.777218750001,"end":13599.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13599.019718750002,"end":13601.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13600.808468750001,"end":13602.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13602.512843750003,"end":13605.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13605.95534375,"end":13607.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13607.946593750003,"end":13609.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13609.27971875,"end":13612.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13612.87409375,"end":13617.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13618.020968750003,"end":13620.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13621.36221875,"end":13638.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13638.91221875,"end":13641.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13642.92846875,"end":13646.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13645.98284375,"end":13663.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13663.364093750002,"end":13666.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13666.620968750001,"end":13672.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13673.13471875,"end":13675.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13675.61534375,"end":13677.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13678.46721875,"end":13680.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13681.96034375,"end":13682.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13683.495968750001,"end":13684.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13685.06534375,"end":13687.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13689.33471875,"end":13691.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13691.96721875,"end":13692.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13692.034718750001,"end":13692.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13692.06846875,"end":13693.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13693.97534375,"end":13697.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13704.15096875,"end":13704.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13704.977843750003,"end":13707.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13708.69034375,"end":13709.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13709.21346875,"end":13715.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13709.247218750003,"end":13709.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13714.343468750001,"end":13718.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13721.937218750001,"end":13723.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13724.164718750002,"end":13725.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13729.56471875,"end":13731.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13732.129718750002,"end":13735.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13735.032218750002,"end":13735.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13735.74096875,"end":13735.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13735.757843750001,"end":13735.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13736.247218750003,"end":13736.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13736.26409375,"end":13737.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13737.90096875,"end":13738.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13739.01471875,"end":13741.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13742.524718750003,"end":13744.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13744.90409375,"end":13745.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13746.50721875,"end":13747.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13747.418468750002,"end":13748.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13749.426593750002,"end":13751.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13753.746593750002,"end":13754.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13755.88971875,"end":13756.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13757.374718750001,"end":13759.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13759.332218750002,"end":13760.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13762.335968750001,"end":13763.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13764.58034375,"end":13765.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13765.930343750002,"end":13768.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13767.22971875,"end":13771.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13772.07284375,"end":13773.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13773.034718750001,"end":13775.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13774.165343750003,"end":13774.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13774.33409375,"end":13774.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13774.570343750001,"end":13774.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13774.739093750002,"end":13774.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13777.371593750002,"end":13780.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13781.489093750002,"end":13782.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13782.164093750001,"end":13789.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13789.454093750002,"end":13792.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13793.31846875,"end":13795.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13796.11971875,"end":13797.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13798.38096875,"end":13798.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13799.140343750001,"end":13803.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13804.60784375,"end":13806.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13806.700343750003,"end":13806.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13806.98721875,"end":13808.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13808.759093750003,"end":13812.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13815.441593750002,"end":13815.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13815.458468750003,"end":13817.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13816.26846875,"end":13816.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13816.285343750002,"end":13817.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13817.90534375,"end":13824.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13824.621593750002,"end":13826.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13828.097843750002,"end":13829.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13831.101593750001,"end":13836.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13838.374718750001,"end":13839.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13839.94409375,"end":13850.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13849.05659375,"end":13850.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13850.625968750002,"end":13854.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13855.28346875,"end":13856.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13858.23659375,"end":13863.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13866.31971875,"end":13867.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13867.028468750003,"end":13867.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13867.129718750002,"end":13867.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13867.21409375,"end":13867.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13868.125343750002,"end":13875.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13874.90909375,"end":13875.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13875.820343750001,"end":13886.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13885.87784375,"end":13887.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13887.19409375,"end":13904.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13895.47971875,"end":13896.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13903.37721875,"end":13906.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13906.70159375,"end":13914.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13911.730343750001,"end":13917.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13917.332843750002,"end":13919.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13919.543468750002,"end":13924.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13920.758468750002,"end":13921.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13925.21346875,"end":13934.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13933.70159375,"end":13942.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13934.562218750001,"end":13934.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13940.65409375,"end":13941.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13941.81846875,"end":13944.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13944.653468750003,"end":13947.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13947.37034375,"end":13950.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13950.036593750003,"end":13956.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13953.765968750002,"end":13954.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13955.36909375,"end":13955.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13956.077843750001,"end":13958.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13958.153468750003,"end":13963.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13963.587218750003,"end":13966.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13964.312843750002,"end":13966.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13966.489718750003,"end":13968.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13968.700343750003,"end":13971.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13971.61971875,"end":13974.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13974.67409375,"end":13975.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13975.956593750001,"end":13978.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13978.31909375,"end":13980.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13980.68159375,"end":13981.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13982.75721875,"end":13983.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13983.668468750002,"end":13988.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13989.152843750002,"end":13990.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13991.19471875,"end":13991.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13992.54471875,"end":13993.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13994.19846875,"end":13995.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13996.98284375,"end":13999.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13999.952843750001,"end":14000.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14000.121593750002,"end":14008.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14008.508468750002,"end":14008.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14009.48721875,"end":14016.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14016.50721875,"end":14017.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14018.734718750002,"end":14019.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14019.19034375,"end":14021.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14021.789093750001,"end":14024.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14024.60721875,"end":14025.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14025.332843750002,"end":14028.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14027.492843750002,"end":14028.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14028.977843750003,"end":14030.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14030.378468750001,"end":14036.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14032.21784375,"end":14032.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14033.753468750001,"end":14034.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14035.49159375,"end":14038.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14038.17471875,"end":14039.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14039.980343750001,"end":14041.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14042.511593750001,"end":14049.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14048.367218750001,"end":14049.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14049.41346875,"end":14049.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14049.56534375,"end":14053.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14053.68284375,"end":14059.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14059.11659375,"end":14063.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14064.617843750002,"end":14068.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14067.75659375,"end":14076.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14076.160343750002,"end":14076.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14076.278468750003,"end":14076.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14076.379718750002,"end":14076.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14076.430343750002,"end":14076.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14076.46409375,"end":14080.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14076.480968750002,"end":14076.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14081.10471875,"end":14085.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14085.79596875,"end":14089.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14089.879718750002,"end":14091.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14091.567218750002,"end":14091.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14091.60096875,"end":14092.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14092.394093750001,"end":14092.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14092.815968750001,"end":14095.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14093.204093750002,"end":14098.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14099.042843750001,"end":14101.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14101.81034375,"end":14102.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14103.379718750002,"end":14109.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14109.589718750001,"end":14110.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14111.46284375,"end":14113.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14113.487843750001,"end":14118.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14117.774093750002,"end":14119.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14118.17909375,"end":14118.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14118.668468750002,"end":14118.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14118.786593750003,"end":14119.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14119.37721875,"end":14119.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14119.512218750002,"end":14119.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14119.59659375,"end":14121.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14120.676593750002,"end":14121.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14121.13221875,"end":14121.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14122.110968750003,"end":14127.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14127.03846875,"end":14140.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14131.76346875,"end":14133.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14138.665343750003,"end":14139.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14139.036593750003,"end":14139.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14139.340343750002,"end":14139.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14140.20096875,"end":14143.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14151.692843750003,"end":14159.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14161.04159375,"end":14161.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14162.98221875,"end":14166.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14164.46721875,"end":14166.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14166.981593750003,"end":14167.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14172.735968750003,"end":14183.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14184.126593750003,"end":14202.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14203.12784375,"end":14205.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14205.38909375,"end":14206.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14207.363468750002,"end":14224.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14224.305968750003,"end":14229.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14230.43159375,"end":14232.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14232.692843750003,"end":14237.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14237.82284375,"end":14246.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14240.792843750001,"end":14242.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14245.399718750003,"end":14250.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14251.019093750001,"end":14252.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14253.044093750003,"end":14258.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14258.376593750003,"end":14267.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14267.117843750002,"end":14267.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14268.36659375,"end":14270.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14271.336593750002,"end":14271.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14271.84284375,"end":14272.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14272.68659375,"end":14275.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14275.285343750002,"end":14308.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14309.558468750001,"end":14326.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14316.578468750002,"end":14316.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14316.98346875,"end":14317.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14318.637218750002,"end":14318.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14322.585968750001,"end":14323.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14325.15096875,"end":14332.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14332.89659375,"end":14343.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14344.70909375,"end":14353.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14353.63596875,"end":14355.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14356.11659375,"end":14360.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14361.128468750001,"end":14365.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14365.296593750001,"end":14368.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14368.28346875,"end":14372.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14372.29971875,"end":14375.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14375.82659375,"end":14376.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14377.29471875,"end":14378.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14378.40846875,"end":14396.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14396.464718750001,"end":14404.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14405.13846875,"end":14423.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14423.66721875,"end":14424.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14424.44346875,"end":14431.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14431.750343750002,"end":14432.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14432.965343750002,"end":14434.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14434.973468750002,"end":14436.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14436.47534375,"end":14439.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14439.73221875,"end":14443.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14442.43221875,"end":14443.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14443.410968750002,"end":14446.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14446.33034375,"end":14446.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14447.07284375,"end":14456.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14456.20221875,"end":14466.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14456.92784375,"end":14457.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14466.512843750003,"end":14468.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14468.031593750002,"end":14468.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14468.06534375,"end":14468.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14468.099093750003,"end":14468.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14468.43659375,"end":14468.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14469.21284375,"end":14470.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14471.035343750002,"end":14503.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14504.144093750001,"end":14504.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14505.39284375,"end":14508.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14508.71721875,"end":14510.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14510.67471875,"end":14523.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14523.63471875,"end":14543.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14543.918468750002,"end":14548.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14548.778468750003,"end":14552.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14553.081593750001,"end":14557.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14557.485968750003,"end":14564.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14561.384093750003,"end":14561.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14563.03784375,"end":14563.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14565.315968750001,"end":14567.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14570.766593750002,"end":14570.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14570.78346875,"end":14571.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14571.120968750001,"end":14589.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14590.020968750003,"end":14591.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14591.438468750002,"end":14593.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14594.47596875,"end":14605.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14605.714718750001,"end":14607.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14608.262843750003,"end":14619.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14619.687218750001,"end":14673.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14623.58534375,"end":14624.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14624.46284375,"end":14624.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14636.039093750001,"end":14636.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14657.74034375,"end":14657.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14673.501593750003,"end":14673.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14674.21034375,"end":14674.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14674.24409375,"end":14690.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14690.258468750002,"end":14692.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14692.55346875,"end":14696.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14695.017218750003,"end":14695.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14696.87346875,"end":14699.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14709.765968750002,"end":14709.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14712.85409375,"end":14715.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14715.53721875,"end":14716.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14721.173468750003,"end":14723.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14723.99159375,"end":14724.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14724.98721875,"end":14725.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14725.999718750001,"end":14726.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14727.231593750003,"end":14732.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14732.68221875,"end":14735.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14737.187843750002,"end":14738.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14738.53784375,"end":14739.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14739.972218750001,"end":14740.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14741.136593750001,"end":14741.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14742.672218750002,"end":14744.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14745.55784375,"end":14747.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14748.07221875,"end":14749.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14750.097218750001,"end":14757.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14759.46284375,"end":14760.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14760.492218750001,"end":14761.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14762.73659375,"end":14764.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14764.57596875,"end":14765.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14766.95534375,"end":14767.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14767.664093750001,"end":14769.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14770.06034375,"end":14771.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14772.33846875,"end":14773.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14773.907843750003,"end":14774.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14776.03409375,"end":14777.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14778.177218750003,"end":14779.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14780.050343750001,"end":14781.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14782.56471875,"end":14784.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14784.859718750002,"end":14785.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14786.496593750002,"end":14787.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14788.977218750002,"end":14792.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14793.195968750002,"end":14794.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14794.664093750001,"end":14795.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14795.71034375,"end":14797.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14798.86596875,"end":14799.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14800.317218750002,"end":14801.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14802.66284375,"end":14803.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14804.755343750003,"end":14806.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14806.375343750002,"end":14807.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14808.130343750003,"end":14809.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14810.239718750003,"end":14811.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14812.04534375,"end":14813.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14814.32346875,"end":14815.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14816.31471875,"end":14816.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14817.394718750002,"end":14818.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14818.812218750001,"end":14819.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14819.976593750001,"end":14821.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14822.254718750002,"end":14822.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14822.96346875,"end":14824.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14824.75221875,"end":14826.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14826.422843750002,"end":14827.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14828.12721875,"end":14832.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14833.30784375,"end":14834.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14835.94034375,"end":14838.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14838.52221875,"end":14839.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14839.382843750001,"end":14844.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14845.609718750002,"end":14845.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14846.352218750002,"end":14847.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14847.989093750002,"end":14848.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14848.934093750002,"end":14849.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14850.63846875,"end":14854.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14855.29596875,"end":14856.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14857.03409375,"end":14861.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14861.590343750002,"end":14862.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14864.695343750001,"end":14866.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14867.10846875,"end":14868.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14869.656593750002,"end":14872.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14873.06534375,"end":14881.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14882.76846875,"end":14884.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14884.742843750002,"end":14886.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14886.649718750003,"end":14886.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14888.30346875,"end":14892.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14894.04096875,"end":14894.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14895.019718750002,"end":14899.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14900.031593750002,"end":14900.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14901.38159375,"end":14903.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14903.49096875,"end":14906.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14907.33846875,"end":14908.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14908.80659375,"end":14909.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14909.76846875,"end":14919.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14920.16346875,"end":14932.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14933.106593750003,"end":14936.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14937.03846875,"end":14938.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14938.945343750001,"end":14942.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14942.438468750002,"end":14943.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14944.51409375,"end":14948.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14949.120968750001,"end":14950.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14950.605968750002,"end":14952.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14952.884093750003,"end":14953.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14953.54221875,"end":14955.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14955.786593750003,"end":14957.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14958.267218750003,"end":14958.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14960.258468750002,"end":14961.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14961.777218750001,"end":14962.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14965.23659375,"end":14966.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14966.99159375,"end":14975.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14975.78346875,"end":15012.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15008.48721875,"end":15012.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15013.75221875,"end":15015.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15015.844718750002,"end":15023.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15023.489093750002,"end":15024.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15024.82221875,"end":15025.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15027.04971875,"end":15028.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15028.61909375,"end":15029.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15030.542843750001,"end":15031.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15031.673468750003,"end":15032.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15032.601593750001,"end":15033.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15033.732218750003,"end":15035.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15035.48721875,"end":15036.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15038.153468750003,"end":15040.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15040.92096875,"end":15042.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15043.165343750003,"end":15044.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15044.937218750001,"end":15046.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15047.92409375,"end":15048.919718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15049.071593750003,"end":15050.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15052.109093750001,"end":15053.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15054.218468750001,"end":15055.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15056.918468750002,"end":15066.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15066.503468750001,"end":15068.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15068.950343750003,"end":15069.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15070.65471875,"end":15073.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15074.40096875,"end":15078.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15079.93596875,"end":15080.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15082.349093750003,"end":15083.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15084.762218750002,"end":15085.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15086.297843750002,"end":15089.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15090.685343750003,"end":15090.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15090.972218750001,"end":15091.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15091.02284375,"end":15091.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15091.05659375,"end":15091.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15091.259093750003,"end":15095.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15091.32659375,"end":15091.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15091.343468750001,"end":15091.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15091.562843750002,"end":15092.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15094.43159375,"end":15098.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15099.29159375,"end":15100.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15100.675343750001,"end":15101.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15102.059093750002,"end":15104.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15104.590343750002,"end":15108.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15108.606593750003,"end":15113.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15114.141593750002,"end":15115.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15115.96409375,"end":15117.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15117.90471875,"end":15119.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15120.030968750001,"end":15123.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15123.422843750002,"end":15123.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15124.03034375,"end":15124.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15124.064093750003,"end":15124.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15124.722218750001,"end":15126.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15126.56159375,"end":15127.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15127.540343750003,"end":15127.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15127.72596875,"end":15127.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15127.860968750003,"end":15129.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15129.19409375,"end":15129.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15129.480968750002,"end":15130.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15129.71721875,"end":15153.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15130.223468750002,"end":15130.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15162.977843750003,"end":15166.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15169.930343750002,"end":15170.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15170.80784375,"end":15170.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15170.85846875,"end":15176.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15176.612843750001,"end":15213.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15213.602843750003,"end":15214.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15215.05409375,"end":15220.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15220.825343750003,"end":15222.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15222.732218750003,"end":15232.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15232.215968750003,"end":15233.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15234.02159375,"end":15235.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15236.434718750003,"end":15280.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15280.54596875,"end":15289.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15292.105343750001,"end":15294.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15294.079718750003,"end":15294.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15294.46784375,"end":15294.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15295.446593750003,"end":15309.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15299.715968750003,"end":15299.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15303.124718750001,"end":15303.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15303.242843750002,"end":15303.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15303.411593750003,"end":15303.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15306.85409375,"end":15307.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15308.17034375,"end":15354.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15355.015343750001,"end":15356.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15356.922218750002,"end":15359.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15365.71409375,"end":15372.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15370.60784375,"end":15370.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15372.66659375,"end":15374.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15374.235968750003,"end":15374.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15375.36659375,"end":15379.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15378.977843750003,"end":15386.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15386.504093750002,"end":15387.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15388.242218750001,"end":15391.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15389.946593750003,"end":15390.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15391.33034375,"end":15398.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15397.33784375,"end":15405.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15398.367218750001,"end":15401.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15405.539093750001,"end":15408.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15409.234718750002,"end":15473.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15475.418468750002,"end":15522.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15523.731593750003,"end":15523.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15524.49096875,"end":15526.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15526.482218750003,"end":15526.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15526.65096875,"end":15526.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15526.684718750003,"end":15526.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15526.70159375,"end":15526.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15527.325968750003,"end":15538.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15537.09659375,"end":15539.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15539.25659375,"end":15548.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15541.51784375,"end":15542.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15542.614718750003,"end":15542.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15547.289093750001,"end":15580.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15580.22909375,"end":15587.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15586.388468750003,"end":15602.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15603.415343750003,"end":15644.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15603.449093750001,"end":15603.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15604.394093750001,"end":15605.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15605.845343750003,"end":15607.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15609.372218750003,"end":15609.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15611.02596875,"end":15611.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15641.940968750001,"end":15643.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15643.695968750002,"end":15646.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15647.442218750002,"end":15650.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15650.10846875,"end":15654.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15651.559718750003,"end":15652.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15654.394718750002,"end":15663.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15654.411593750003,"end":15654.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15658.242218750001,"end":15659.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15660.925343750001,"end":15663.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15664.637843750003,"end":15665.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15665.414093750001,"end":15665.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15665.802218750003,"end":15668.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15670.122218750003,"end":15676.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15675.30284375,"end":15681.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15679.26846875,"end":15679.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15679.31909375,"end":15680.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15681.023468750001,"end":15685.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15685.44471875,"end":15687.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15687.840968750003,"end":15688.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15689.54534375,"end":15691.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15690.895343750002,"end":15700.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15691.18221875,"end":15691.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15693.56159375,"end":15693.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15694.320968750002,"end":15695.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15701.340968750003,"end":15704.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15701.374718750001,"end":15704.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15704.024093750002,"end":15704.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15704.53034375,"end":15704.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15704.547218750002,"end":15704.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15704.597843750002,"end":15705.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15705.120968750001,"end":15705.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15705.42471875,"end":15705.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15705.441593750002,"end":15705.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15705.458468750003,"end":15705.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15705.84659375,"end":15705.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15705.863468750002,"end":15705.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15705.89721875,"end":15718.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15707.179718750001,"end":15707.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15708.47909375,"end":15709.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15710.774093750002,"end":15711.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15715.364093750002,"end":15720.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15719.39721875,"end":15719.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15719.734718750002,"end":15728.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15720.29159375,"end":15720.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15720.966593750003,"end":15722.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15722.67096875,"end":15722.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15722.805968750003,"end":15723.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15723.29534375,"end":15724.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15724.155968750001,"end":15724.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15733.96034375,"end":15735.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15735.664718750002,"end":15736.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15736.91346875,"end":15737.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15742.482218750003,"end":15742.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15742.583468750003,"end":15742.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15742.60034375,"end":15743.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15743.781593750002,"end":15759.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15759.779093750003,"end":15764.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15764.48721875,"end":15768.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15769.17846875,"end":15772.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15772.890968750002,"end":15775.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15776.114093750002,"end":15777.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15778.020968750003,"end":15778.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15779.472218750001,"end":15779.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15780.315968750001,"end":15784.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15784.804718750001,"end":15788.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15788.719718750002,"end":15789.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15789.934718750003,"end":15792.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15792.786593750003,"end":15793.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15793.84971875,"end":15794.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15795.58784375,"end":15797.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15797.899718750003,"end":15799.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15799.671593750001,"end":15802.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15802.540343750003,"end":15804.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15806.607218750003,"end":15832.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15811.230968750002,"end":15812.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15831.599093750003,"end":15835.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15832.223468750002,"end":15832.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15836.189093750003,"end":15838.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15837.77534375,"end":15839.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15839.513468750003,"end":15855.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15845.402843750002,"end":15845.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15845.774093750002,"end":15846.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15846.499718750001,"end":15846.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15854.633468750002,"end":15868.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15857.367218750001,"end":15857.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15865.872218750003,"end":15866.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15866.091593750003,"end":15866.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15866.36159375,"end":15866.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15866.42909375,"end":15866.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15868.403468750003,"end":15870.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15870.917843750001,"end":15875.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15875.845343750003,"end":15894.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15894.37409375,"end":15895.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15896.044718750003,"end":15904.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15905.140343750001,"end":15911.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15911.215343750002,"end":15913.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15913.071593750003,"end":15919.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15919.821593750003,"end":15931.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15926.63909375,"end":15927.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15932.17409375,"end":15945.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15945.89346875,"end":15946.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15946.180343750002,"end":15948.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15946.21409375,"end":15947.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15948.593468750001,"end":15951.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15951.985343750002,"end":15952.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15952.00221875,"end":15952.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15952.91346875,"end":15954.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15955.208468750003,"end":15977.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15978.192218750002,"end":15980.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15981.95534375,"end":15986.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15986.96721875,"end":15992.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15991.219718750002,"end":15994.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15994.645343750002,"end":16002.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16000.46721875,"end":16003.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16002.27284375,"end":16002.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16002.441593750002,"end":16003.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16003.42034375,"end":16007.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16003.454093750002,"end":16004.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16007.706593750001,"end":16008.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16008.499718750001,"end":16010.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16010.845343750003,"end":16012.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16012.195343750001,"end":16012.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16012.515968750002,"end":16014.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16013.730968750002,"end":16015.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16015.097843750002,"end":16015.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16015.114718750003,"end":16015.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16015.45221875,"end":16018.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16018.270343750002,"end":16019.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16019.77221875,"end":16034.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16033.778468750003,"end":16036.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16037.11971875,"end":16043.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16043.97096875,"end":16046.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16045.844093750002,"end":16050.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16046.519093750001,"end":16046.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16050.130343750003,"end":16050.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16050.14721875,"end":16050.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16050.214718750001,"end":16050.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16050.36659375,"end":16050.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16050.450968750003,"end":16050.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16050.501593750003,"end":16050.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16050.88971875,"end":16065.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16052.10471875,"end":16052.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16052.138468750003,"end":16052.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16052.661593750003,"end":16052.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16058.38221875,"end":16058.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16063.96784375,"end":16067.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16066.144718750002,"end":16068.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16067.96721875,"end":16068.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16068.692843750003,"end":16069.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16069.519718750002,"end":16079.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16079.442218750002,"end":16084.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16084.909718750001,"end":16086.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16086.495968750001,"end":16088.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16089.11159375,"end":16093.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16091.33909375,"end":16091.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16093.02659375,"end":16109.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16109.175968750002,"end":16119.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16116.786593750003,"end":16117.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16118.423468750003,"end":16118.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16119.351593750001,"end":16121.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16122.034718750001,"end":16136.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16136.88471875,"end":16142.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16142.75721875,"end":16148.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16148.730968750002,"end":16154.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16154.40096875,"end":16157.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16157.539718750002,"end":16163.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16163.699093750001,"end":16166.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16166.871593750002,"end":16173.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16173.65534375,"end":16180.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16187.50971875,"end":16189.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16190.024093750002,"end":16191.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16191.441593750002,"end":16192.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16193.16284375,"end":16193.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16196.63909375,"end":16197.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16197.33096875,"end":16197.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16198.107218750003,"end":16199.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16199.69346875,"end":16199.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16199.794718750003,"end":16199.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16200.098468750002,"end":16201.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16201.785968750002,"end":16202.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16202.562218750001,"end":16203.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16204.18221875,"end":16207.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16207.810343750003,"end":16208.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16209.51471875,"end":16212.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16213.176593750002,"end":16216.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16217.175968750002,"end":16219.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16219.673468750003,"end":16221.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16221.563468750002,"end":16228.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16229.39346875,"end":16230.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16231.047218750002,"end":16234.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16235.012843750003,"end":16235.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16236.649718750003,"end":16238.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16239.46784375,"end":16241.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16241.52659375,"end":16247.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16248.884093750003,"end":16249.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16250.53784375,"end":16254.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16254.97596875,"end":16256.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16257.220343750003,"end":16258.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16259.380343750003,"end":16261.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16261.87784375,"end":16263.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16264.965968750003,"end":16267.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16268.273468750001,"end":16269.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16270.720343750003,"end":16271.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16272.914093750001,"end":16275.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16275.816593750002,"end":16290.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16290.81846875,"end":16295.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16295.610968750003,"end":16296.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16297.09596875,"end":16298.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16299.289718750002,"end":16300.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16301.567843750003,"end":16302.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16303.356593750003,"end":16315.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16316.50221875,"end":16319.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16319.792843750001,"end":16320.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16321.547843750002,"end":16323.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16324.31534375,"end":16324.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16324.905968750001,"end":16327.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16328.78721875,"end":16330.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16330.89659375,"end":16344.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16345.274093750002,"end":16349.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16350.083468750003,"end":16351.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16352.175968750002,"end":16354.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16355.179718750001,"end":16357.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16357.660343750002,"end":16358.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16358.95971875,"end":16361.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16362.38534375,"end":16364.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16364.376593750003,"end":16366.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16367.07659375,"end":16372.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16372.442843750003,"end":16378.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16378.821593750003,"end":16384.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16385.402843750002,"end":16386.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16386.44909375,"end":16387.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16388.372843750003,"end":16389.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16390.600343750004,"end":16392.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16392.64221875,"end":16394.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16395.156593749998,"end":16395.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16396.03409375,"end":16396.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16397.957843750002,"end":16398.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16400.96159375,"end":16402.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16402.851593749998,"end":16403.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16404.23534375,"end":16405.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16406.90159375,"end":16414.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16415.507843749998,"end":16417.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16418.29221875,"end":16418.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16418.93346875,"end":16428.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16428.754718750002,"end":16429.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16430.30721875,"end":16447.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16447.60409375,"end":16463.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16463.500343749998,"end":16494.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16492.94721875,"end":16498.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16498.54971875,"end":16501.452218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16501.671593749998,"end":16504.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16504.33784375,"end":16504.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16505.16471875,"end":16505.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16505.82284375,"end":16508.624093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16508.35409375,"end":16508.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16509.09659375,"end":16511.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16511.94846875,"end":16515.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16515.42471875,"end":16518.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16518.647843749997,"end":16520.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16520.453468749998,"end":16521.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16521.76971875,"end":16522.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16522.68096875,"end":16527.085343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16527.64221875,"end":16533.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16533.835343749997,"end":16535.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16535.75909375,"end":16537.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16538.256593750004,"end":16539.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16540.230968750002,"end":16557.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16551.672218749998,"end":16555.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16555.148468749998,"end":16555.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16557.359093749998,"end":16566.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16566.623468750004,"end":16570.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16571.500343749998,"end":16577.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16577.44034375,"end":16583.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16584.527843750002,"end":16623.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16623.74534375,"end":16632.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16633.12784375,"end":16637.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16638.139718749997,"end":16639.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16639.489718750003,"end":16639.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16640.40096875,"end":16641.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16641.835343749997,"end":16642.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16642.881593750004,"end":16652.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16650.880343750003,"end":16650.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16650.93096875,"end":16651.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16651.03221875,"end":16651.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16651.099718750003,"end":16651.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16651.234718749998,"end":16651.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16651.302218750003,"end":16651.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16651.960343749997,"end":16655.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16658.052218750003,"end":16663.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16663.78971875,"end":16670.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16671.062843749998,"end":16677.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16677.897218750004,"end":16684.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16699.48034375,"end":16700.84721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1714.574,"end":1725.867,"text":"我們現在開會請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員13人以主法定人數我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1728.43,"end":1756.205,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月13日星期三上午9時1分至12時48分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蔓玉珍委員等11人列席委員羅志強委員等17人請假委員李博義委員等3人列席官員海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲及相關人員農業部漁業署署長張志聖及相關人員主席吳釗棋委員齊銘"},{"start":1758.286,"end":1774.971,"text":"報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案及二案一海洋委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該會決議一海洋業務運算凍結50萬元書面報告請查照案二海洋委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":1781.713,"end":1803.275,"text":"解送海洋保育署決議因海洋保育業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告請查照案。決定以上二案書面報告均已送達,預算得以動之擬據報告提報院會。3.邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。包括事項與討論事項和並詢答。委員楊瓊英說明提案要指海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲報告。"},{"start":1804.156,"end":1823.713,"text":"委員蔓玉珍等14人質詢．分別由海洋委員會主任委員．管弊鄰居相關人員．及農業部漁業署署長張志聖答覆說明決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢．詢答結束二委員蘇巧慧．高金素梅丁學忠及陳冠廷等4人所提書面質詢列入記錄看登工報"},{"start":1824.554,"end":1848.394,"text":"łec 3 住院質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項一審查海洋委員會涵為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送海巡署及所屬決議一海巡業務預算凍結50萬元書面報告請查照案決議本案同意動之擬據報告提報院會二海洋保育法草案一審查行政院涵清審議海洋保育法草案"},{"start":1848.914,"end":1866.38,"text":"而審查委員楊瓊英等20人離去海洋保育法草案案。決議海洋保育法草案等二案均另定期繼續審查。條文及修正動議均與宣讀完畢。請問各位委員上一次的會議意思錄有沒有錯誤或者是遺漏的地方?請問一下。"},{"start":1870.623,"end":1885.332,"text":"好那麼如果我們確定的話我們就是意思錄確定繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在介紹一下在場的委員我們在場的委員有王美媛委員蘇巧慧委員早黃婕委員"},{"start":1901.772,"end":1928.493,"text":"李博義委員現在我們再繼續介紹一下在場的列席官員今天列席的官員有我們內政部林祐昌部長民政司鄭英宏代理司長護政司陳子和代理司長地政司王全基司長"},{"start":1930.848,"end":1950.04,"text":"合作及人民團體司林福來司長。宗教及理智司林清奇司長。議政司沈哲芳司長。綜合規劃司王明正司長。資訊服務司黃國鈺司長。秘書處施明次處長。人事處林翠玲處長。"},{"start":1962.113,"end":1972.022,"text":"政分處歐建智處長會計處徐守國處長統計處饒智堅處長法治處鄭信偉處長國土管理署吳興修署長陳香芳分署分署長林秉勛"},{"start":1991.738,"end":2009.891,"text":"國家公園署署長陳茂春肯定國家公園管理處處長陳勤龍玉山國家公園管理處處長盧淑飛陽明山國家公園管理處處長楊茉琳泰魯閣國家公園管理處處長楊金珍"},{"start":2019.403,"end":2045.364,"text":"學霸國家公園管理處處長林文和基門國家公園管理處處長鄭瑞昌海洋國家公園管理處處長徐昭良台江國家公園管理處處長謝偉松國家資產公園管理處處長張登文土地重化工程處處長林慶林"},{"start":2049.578,"end":2075.91,"text":"國土策會中心主任鄭采棠建築研究所所長王榮進警政署署長黃明昭督察室主任嚴旺盛刑事警察局副局長黃任聰中央警察大學校長楊元明"},{"start":2078.789,"end":2089.739,"text":"消防署署長 蕭煥章移民署署長 鍾景坤空中勤務總隊總隊長 景延淵"},{"start":2094.907,"end":2096.628,"text":"6分鐘必要的時候延長兩分鐘然後非本會委員"},{"start":2117.071,"end":2144.28,"text":"6分鐘然後上午10點30分我們截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出的時間是10點在本會委員會詢答結束之後我們來處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好謝謝委員會現在我們就進行詢答請登記第一位的舒巧慧不好意思還有後面"},{"start":2149.148,"end":2161.615,"text":"好,我們現在請部會來做業務報告我們林部長您大概想要幾分鐘?好,給你五分鐘時間好不好?好,我們給五分鐘部長時間讓他做業務報告"},{"start":2170.368,"end":2184.629,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天曾邀來報告內政部業務概況深感榮幸在各位的桌上有完整的一個書面報告以下請就口頭做重點的一個說明"},{"start":2186.601,"end":2200.339,"text":"我想在疫情之後本部透過專案的方式照顧中低新房貸主並且協助教育部門提供大專院校學生住宿補助等不同的福利措施減輕民眾及青年學子的經濟壓力"},{"start":2201.661,"end":2204.224,"text":"另外與國安團隊針對今年總統副總統以及立委選舉加強安全維護即查獲會選選舉賭盤境外勢力借選網路假訊息等案件總計有937件來確保整個選舉平安平穩平順的完成"},{"start":2222.745,"end":2236.898,"text":"另外面對國際情勢的快速變動本部也廣納各界的一個意見來持續進行各項的政策措施以下僅就三大面向跟各位委員先進來做說明"},{"start":2239.249,"end":2256.615,"text":"首先感謝大院委員先進支持槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例在今年的1月3日修正公佈完備槍砲彈藥管制的措施加重公然開槍刑罰二指非法改造槍枝跑竄"},{"start":2258.135,"end":2272.204,"text":"並且來維護社會的治安此外為了防堵詐欺的犯罪擴大公司協力與民間共同推動金流防護網等各項防詐措施在去年全班詐欺犯罪破獲306,280件"},{"start":2275.726,"end":2300.359,"text":"本部將持續與各部會來合作來全力打擊黑金毒槍炸等等的這些犯罪的樣態來讓國人安心讓民眾安定的生活要為了打擊人口犯疫份子並且強化被害人的保護服務我們在今年1月1日修正通過了人口"},{"start":2304.335,"end":2321.809,"text":"我們通過了人口翻譯防治法此外為防範國人遭誘騙到國外﹐定定的國人與海外遭人口翻譯及其他被害或被迫從事犯罪之反國保護專案工作指引﹐截至今年3月3日為止協處被害的國人總計有356人"},{"start":2325.052,"end":2353.651,"text":"此外另一方面為了提升全社會防疫能力．結合各地方政府警察機關辦理民力多元招募工作．並就協情民力來爭取協情費用．增添裝備等福利另外也在民防的長年訓練中來融入競賽活動．以利推動民防團隊的招募任務在防救災的部分本部為了提升企業重視場區安全及風險管理研修消防法等相關規定"},{"start":2355.052,"end":2379.659,"text":"加強規範業者落實設備維護與安全管理責任及其行則．並精進吹哨者獎勵機制以強化企業自主防災能力此外為了進一步升職企業災害防救的意識結合ESG精神規劃推動職場消防安全SDGS"},{"start":2380.899,"end":2397.049,"text":"接入實務建議指南來協助大型企業將防災、減災、安全事項納入永續報告書引領企業投入防護安全工作以深化企業永續治理的文化"},{"start":2399.69,"end":2416.976,"text":"另外也非常感謝大院委員鼎力支持住宅法．在去年12月6日修正公佈．來鼓勵更多房東投入公寓出租人的行列．並且同時擴大了育兒家庭居住的保障．那截至今年2月底為止已經合訂租金補貼約是3萬戶．"},{"start":2419.097,"end":2420.358,"text":"總體的社會住宅措施﹚"},{"start":2442.139,"end":2461.128,"text":"為了呼應淨零碳排的政策引導建築淨零轉型我們在去年7月份實施建築能效評估及標示制度並且在社會住宅及公辦都跟建築全面來導入新建住宅能效標示一級截至今年2月底為止通過認可的既有25件"},{"start":2462.936,"end":2473.225,"text":"並且與地方政府來合辦22場的說明會．來擴散公有建築能效評估的範例．共同朝向淨零永續的目標來邁進此外在主席好謝謝"},{"start":2481.486,"end":2499.009,"text":"此外在通行環節上面本部也積極落實行政院的措施然後來推動以人為本的新交通文化那同時也推動行人交通安全設施條例的立法透過與中央和地方系統性的中長期改善計劃來落實道安的目標"},{"start":2500.691,"end":2529.127,"text":"這個條例的草案已經經行政院在今年3月7日含送大院審議也懇請各位委員能夠大力的支持在深化民主方面我們凝聚了禁止酷刑及其他殘忍不人道或有入人格之待遇或處罰公約及其認責議定書的施行法草案將聯合國禁止酷刑公約國內法化來接軌國際另外入出國籍移民法已經採二階段來施行"},{"start":2529.767,"end":2539.636,"text":"那在有關於民眾福祉部分鬆綁停居留強化婚姻移民家庭團聚權等規範已經在今年的1月份優先上路來施行"},{"start":2540.888,"end":2567.807,"text":"而在於強化人流安全管理相關處罰及收容新制的部分：也在今年3月正式來施行本部將會繼續的來辦理相關的教育訓練增進基層執法的專業打造友善的移民還有攬財的環境此外在民間組織育成上面我們在去年內政部組織法通過成立合作事業及人民團體司"},{"start":2569.626,"end":2590.776,"text":"我們也在去年完成合作事業推動地方創生輔導事辦計劃．提供育成輔導的多元協助除外本部目前也在行政院的一個指示之下結合各相關部會成立主管部門的合作事業推廣專案小組來共同營造有利合作事業發展的環境"},{"start":2591.576,"end":2608.448,"text":"最後,在協助宗教團體發展部分,我們在去年12月召開宗教事務諮詢委員會議,瞭解各教團的實際需求,並且已經定型頒布獎補助的規定,來協助地方政府加速輔導宗教團體"},{"start":2609.469,"end":2631.978,"text":"保全不動產權．至目前照3月12日為止已經有559家宗教團體申請總計有3127筆不動產權歸屬的審論那最後感謝大任在上會期通過多項攸關人民權益還有本部組織改造的相關法案以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":2635.339,"end":2642.285,"text":"好非常謝謝部長在這邊的業務報告我們繼續就開始我們的詢答我們請第一位舒巧惠委員好謝謝主席我們請林耀昌林部長有請林部長"},{"start":2658.413,"end":2681.391,"text":"你好部長好部長今天是首次在內政部內政委員會這邊跟您做請教那也想要問一下您剛剛在這個口頭報告當然說了很多但我想要請教的是書面報告你說的也就口頭報告你沒有說到我想請教書面報告說到你提到了這個警政業務當中其實有一項是保護婦幼人身安全沒有錯吧是"},{"start":2682.412,"end":2711.732,"text":"在第28月有提到嘛那在這裡面你有說到在112年也就是去年度我們通報的兒少保護案件有15808件脆弱家庭呢有5566件這個脆弱家庭應該是只涵蓋在兒少保護案裡面嘛對不對這裡的用語是這樣好那我就直接請教你請問我們之前日前在講的這個重大的兒女案件也就是凱凱案哪有沒有在這裡面"},{"start":2713.813,"end":2714.814,"text":"創業家庭通報有哪些要件?"},{"start":2736.95,"end":2762.198,"text":"應該按照法規規定的話其實他有一定的規定嘛對不對其實是欸我們看下一頁好不好對啊我們根據兒少全法的話錯落家庭有一定的定義那本件就我們現在從新聞上面列舉得知的部長你現在看法規這本件算不算錯落家庭算吧"},{"start":2763.188,"end":2790.841,"text":"因為如果以本件我們從假設啦我們假設這個新聞報導的都是確定的的話那麼第一個嘛這個他很有可能他的父親父親的這個部分因為就是有在服役服刑的狀況嘛然後母親的狀況以及祖母家庭經濟狀況都符合這脆弱家庭這裡面的這三項八項裡面有三項是符合的啊"},{"start":2791.661,"end":2811.599,"text":"不是這樣嗎?那為什麼會沒有通報呢?警政部門的通報在勤務中有發現比如說戶口查查或執勤的時候發現要通報給主管機關這個主管機關是地方來講是社會局"},{"start":2816.744,"end":2844.634,"text":"是 所以在這個地方我們這個額略的案件其實現在已經有兩大主管部門嘛一個等於是內政部這邊在警政知道的這狀況之下其實你們是知悉嘛或者是受到通報的時候你們等於是有點被動接受當然你們在訪查的時候在任何狀況下看到的時候其實你們根據額少權法你們也是義務通報人之一啦之一其實根據這個額少權法有非常多的義務通報人那你們只是之一"},{"start":2845.915,"end":2861.989,"text":"所以現在的主管單位其實是衛福部這邊的社政單位吧我的理解是這樣應該沒有錯嘛對不對可是就你們的了解就你現在判讀法規我剛剛請你判讀的是依照這個法規而照全法來講這個案件本身應該是脆弱交替應該沒有問題嘛對不對好"},{"start":2866.633,"end":2875.857,"text":"可是我們再根據後面的狀況來看的話其實脆弱家庭當社政單位窒息之後其實也會通知回內政部對嗎這句話對嗎"},{"start":2879.824,"end":2896.353,"text":"因為你們其實也有欸你們其實每年在內政部每年在行政院提報的施政計畫當中也公佈在內政部的網站施政計畫當中會說為了保護婦幼兒上安全落實脆弱家庭通報其實也在內政部我是請內部長"},{"start":2898.214,"end":2916.501,"text":"也在你們的部門有啊所以意思是說脆弱家庭並不是你們主動發掘瞭解知道了之後可是其實應該回到你們這邊要跟警政單位有溝通啊為什麼呢因為脆弱家庭的要提供我現在就是看到這個嘛這個脆弱家庭之兒童及少年通報諧詢及資料收集處理利用辦法"},{"start":2923.244,"end":2948.403,"text":"當然他是在這個衛福部的社會及家庭目下面他是根據兒少全法規定的可是他在這個根據下面的定義以及哪一些單位對這些脆弱家庭需要有照護等等其實警政單位也有相當多的事情是需要跟脆弱家庭需要能夠有互動要提供幫助的不是這樣嗎"},{"start":2949.684,"end":2977.921,"text":"通報回來是合理的啊我跟委員報告我們警政單位通報回到我們這邊一個聯繫主要就是我們警察是提供比如說他在有人身安全保護上面需要那至於那個個案以及家庭的一個支持這部分應該是回歸到其實部長我今天要請教你的就是通報的部分啦通報的部分好那我現在問你如果民眾發現有逆遏事件的話他是打110還是113"},{"start":2980.977,"end":3006.579,"text":"按照政府的規定現在最希望是打113啦對不對但是邀要動也可以接啦只是他又要通報回社政系統嘛對不對好我今天為什麼跟您請教這個其實因為我上一屆四年都在未還我們處理社政系統很多但是我必須說我們看到社會的真實面向上面就是大家發現有這種案件的時候第一個想到的還是打電話給警察啦"},{"start":3007.259,"end":3031.4,"text":"老實講就是這樣啦第一線還是打電話給警察好那他就會變成剛剛說未報案的有報案的那有報案的警察接到了之後緊急的他會立即聯繫社工然後做後面評估然後如果要馬上出動其實也是要拜託警政系統的警察然後他就變成是一個重大案件等等就下去了嘛那要不急的話警政單位接到了通報之後也是要做成記錄並且通報社政單位然後讓社政去處理"},{"start":3034.102,"end":3054.445,"text":"後面如果又有需要再回過頭來又是到警政所以可見呢這樣的一個兒女愛的案件裡面其實社政跟警政是密不可分的啊我這句話部長你同意嗎社政跟警政對兒女愛就是密不可分的是當然沒錯嘛因為剛剛在講我們最重要的就是要提供人身的一個安全的保護"},{"start":3055.466,"end":3074.258,"text":"是在第一你會在接收通報的時候出現第二在遇有緊急狀況的時候你必須協同社工一起去嘛第三甚至是在事後在必要的時候你在收集案件證據等等的時候資料選取的資料協處的時候警政也會發生也會發揮非常大的功能這點也沒錯吧"},{"start":3076.779,"end":3098.328,"text":"如果有需要修正的部分有需要修正的部分嗎?當它變成重大案件需要修正的時候了?對,會來協助好,那可是其實在本件啊據我們在網路上面看到有一個是有一個網友他說我這個犯案件啊我知道可能是本件相關的額內的哭聲影片他打電話到110告知了此事那得到的回覆是什麼?"},{"start":3099.008,"end":3111.222,"text":"他是這樣說的啦我不知道是不是真實但是網友得到的回覆是請你將此案件送到地檢署長首長信箱到時候如果需要影片會再跟他聯繫你覺得這個打法對嗎"},{"start":3114.906,"end":3137.676,"text":"我想這個是明顯不妥的可能不妥吧應該是不妥吧因為警政機關就有一段文字他說請民眾勇於發揮雞婆好鄰居關鍵不忍假的角色發現需要的弱勢錯誤家庭及恩怨案件可以適時通報110和113所以你剛剛的那個資料可以提供給我們可以一步查證好我要說的是這樣子其實我覺得這個"},{"start":3138.837,"end":3141.939,"text":"我今天在這裡的時候我其實是想跟警政署和內政部警政署這邊說其實警察同仁真的非常辛苦"},{"start":3161.488,"end":3181.101,"text":"因為我們上一屆在未來的時候深深知道所有的人所有案件都丟到警察這邊去而且你看他剛剛有三個階段其實你們也已經做了很多所以我主張的是如果有做的警政機關應該要把警察做的拿出來告訴大家其實我們做了這麼多你的辛苦要讓國民知道"},{"start":3181.701,"end":3207.07,"text":"但如果像剛剛這個萬一真的是有落高企有做得不夠好當然應該改進這樣兩邊合起來我覺得額內案件才能夠有被處理完善的部分啦那當然我本來還想要講到組織阿等等之類的不過主席已經站起來那我們就留著我們未來再繼續討論我認為額內的部分其實確實兩邊的銜接是最重要的部分這一點跟平常糾結啦好謝謝委員"},{"start":3210.936,"end":3211.056,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":3238.562,"end":3256.395,"text":"委員長部長在去年也是這個場合我有跟部長我們有討論過這個涉宅輪候制是否應區分六都及非六都然後未來是不是要擴大適用輪候制向部長請教"},{"start":3258.576,"end":3271.841,"text":"那時候部長有回答說應該做一個適當的區分畢竟六都的需求也不太一樣我不知道這一段時間我們有沒有做了一些檢討或什麼是 謝謝我請吳署長先做說明"},{"start":3275.548,"end":3276.509,"text":"北北及桃宜"},{"start":3290.947,"end":3307.927,"text":"．"},{"start":3308.808,"end":3322.818,"text":"續續討或是逐逐秒他也會設立一個生活圈以此類推把全台灣劃分成6個大的生活圈來做處理那這樣的話涉宰的分部會更能夠掌握實際大家通勤跟居住的一個行為的需要"},{"start":3324.219,"end":3347.676,"text":"所以有在做檢討啦齁好那另外啊齁我們這個啊這個租屋優化的這個齁雖然這個問題沒有說很明顯啦齁但我不知道這個署長你是不是知道啊齁我們之前我們都跟我們那個房客說啊齁我們不用啊齁跟房東講我們就可以直接處理齁對不對但欸"},{"start":3350.683,"end":3373.974,"text":"有些房東沒有繳納房屋稅或什麼被全數退回的這個我們要怎麼處理跟委員報告那個是在111年的確我們第一次開始推的時候沒有到很精準沒有到很精準那所以當時那時候也還沒有講就是不用經過房東同意但是後來發現有一些是因為他的房屋沒有稅籍"},{"start":3375.394,"end":3392.719,"text":"或實際上沒有做就是說實際上他的分區不是做居住在使用的那所以這個部分大概全國有大概有180幾件那這一些我們後來因為當時的規定的確是怕說有這個幽靈戶口的做法所以當時規定的比較嚴格"},{"start":3393.839,"end":3411.63,"text":"我們在112年開始就把這個條件更放寬只要實際上有居住行為也涵蓋現在的所謂的違建頂加通通都列進去所以在112年這些案子就沒有再發生了所以更為保證我們有中間有再做一些改進"},{"start":3412.83,"end":3440.659,"text":"所以這一百八十幾件其實沒有問題了吧沒有就是照一百一十一年的規定他還是要退回但是他如果一百一十二年申請再來補稅那就沒有問題我的意思是說他如果同樣的條件他在一百一十二年一百一十三年之後重新申請就沒有問題啦對而且上次也提到就是說這些就是已經這個房屋稅的就是稅籍有沒有還有這個也不得作為查稅的依據所以也不會再出現這個一個狀況"},{"start":3442.299,"end":3457.281,"text":"重點就是沒有問題了啦 對不對沒有問題的話喔要跟大家講啊我們現在這邊討論沒有但很多年輕人不知道啊就是這個有問題造成他不敢申請"},{"start":3458.944,"end":3474.421,"text":"我今天問你就是我遇到好幾個例子人家問我們服務組阿這樣到底可不可以申請阿所以我是覺得啦這樣沒有問題我們應該就大聲講吧在你們的網站問什麼阿讓人家知道讓年輕人知道年輕人不一定看新聞當然又看你們網站阿"},{"start":3474.941,"end":3476.582,"text":"我覺得這一部分可能是要讓大家要去了解好不好"},{"start":3493.951,"end":3505.234,"text":"另外部長,你前一陣子就有說我們這個改革方案公設比可以降到25、30%了,這個部長你覺得這個可以解決所有的問題了嗎?"},{"start":3515.8,"end":3530.95,"text":"這一部分這兩個措施因為我們最主要是兩個措施第一個是這個車道的車位的專有登記還有這個車道的負擔的部分另外就是在這個免計容積的部分做一些變革"},{"start":3532.071,"end":3554.504,"text":"那這個大概可以大幅的去改善就是可以增加民眾在實際購物時候所買得的這個實際的一個評數但你說他能不能解決所有的問題因為所有問題也許包括房價等等他當然不可能解決所有問題但是他會解決這個所謂增加時評這個民眾很關心的這個問題"},{"start":3557.566,"end":3561.797,"text":"我知道部長其實時間的關係我擔心的一個就是說如果這個會不會造成這個"},{"start":3567.478,"end":3591.958,"text":"你要比較多的食品或什麼造成這個等於單品的售價會提高實際上並不會關於物價的調漲這個我跟你講建商會不會這樣子我們可能要預先預防建商可能有一百種理由他就會提高這個我只要提醒這個我覺得這個很有可能發生我們要及早預防"},{"start":3592.679,"end":3621.469,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們最近都有跟不動產界還有業者來做一些溝通跟討論基本上大家在瞭解之後是可以理解那也知道說這樣子可以避免有一些不肖的建商在過去會用所謂的慣需品或者說車道兩賣的這個狀況所以他會讓整個的一個制度更加的一個公平我跟這位委員提到的這個部分我們會特別注意"},{"start":3621.829,"end":3643.46,"text":"好 謝謝另外這個上個禮拜大家都在關注這個那個幼童凱凱的事件我在這邊要跟部長說一下就是說其實我們業務裡面新住民是我們的業務新住民相對的來說有很多他也是社會的弱勢"},{"start":3645.06,"end":3661.507,"text":"那像這種情況我覺得也有可能會發生因為你的新住民其實的離婚啊什麼的情況也很多那就變成單親變成什麼的那他們的第二代我們的新二代也有可能會遇到這些問題"},{"start":3662.607,"end":3690.768,"text":"我在這邊我是要提醒部長跟我們署長對於這個問題已經發生了我們應該馬上就要內政部我們應該要有我們的規範我們的措施我們要去預防這件事情在新住民的小孩子身上發生我在這邊不知道部長你跟我的看法有沒有一致我想這部分是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":3691.748,"end":3713.7,"text":"那我們有沒有馬上去開會去檢討說有哪些要趕快去做的哪些要去補強的你可以請署長回答其實這個事情一發生之後院裡面就有這個邀請相關的一個部會做相關的精進的一個討論細節的部分我請署長簡單做說明署長我就要說對於新住民的部分我說這一塊"},{"start":3715.912,"end":3733.55,"text":"對於新住民的這個部分因為有可能有這個脆弱的這個屬性的這個家庭那因為我們有這個基金的部分是有在補助各縣市都有設立新住民家庭服務中心那我們的各縣市的服務站也都有聘請專業的"},{"start":3735.031,"end":3735.852,"text":"我只有一句話啦"},{"start":3757.845,"end":3758.045,"text":"非常謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢 謝謝"},{"start":3788.796,"end":3792.338,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝組長謝謝繼續我們請徐宇貞委員來質詢主席請我們林佑昌部長有請林部長"},{"start":3817.005,"end":3837.774,"text":"部長我想請教你在107年12月底的時候當時的行政院長也就是現在的總統當選人賴清德開始推動智慧政府的發展藍圖那內政部也在108年的1月31號提報數位身份證換發的計劃同年的6月呢行政院通過4年總經費48.9億元的計劃那依據內政部112年度的決算報告來看"},{"start":3844.757,"end":3847.919,"text":"內政部新市徵認證換發的計劃109年到112年累積編列的預算數為8億6504萬8千元那截至112年指呢累計執行數為7億1223萬7千元另外我可以查到的還有在"},{"start":3863.346,"end":3886.812,"text":"一百零九年度中央硬製廠也編列了四億一千八百零四萬五千元所以兩者合計呢總計是十一億三千零二十八萬兩千元那今年一月初呢公共工程委員會也跟數位生產的代表廠商完成了仲裁的協議同意二點八億元的和解如果再加上這筆和解金的話"},{"start":3887.372,"end":3897.726,"text":"我們為了數位身份證要支出的經費是14億1028萬元本席要請教林部長本席算這個數字正不正確"},{"start":3901.449,"end":3921.837,"text":"因為這邊是執行數我想執行數就是已經執行出去的那我們大概有幾個部分一個是投入的這個廠房還有設備另外有一些耗材然後另外還有每年的一個維護的費用所以說我剛剛提了依您的決算報告的14億的這個部分的數字是正確的喔"},{"start":3923.517,"end":3937.082,"text":"我們部的部分是7億多我想這個決算的部分應該是確定的好你們部是7億多那因為要執行這個計畫中央運製廠編列了4億多也不算在這個計畫當中嗎"},{"start":3940.24,"end":3967.319,"text":"應該是算吧我想整個支出的經費就是14億我請那個民政司那好等一下我想等一下再一起說明部長您在接受媒體的時候有說賠償2.8億已經是最好的結果您的說詞是不是要誤導民眾認為我們只支出了為了這個做錯誤的政策支出2.8億那這是最好的結果嗎那如果"},{"start":3968.742,"end":3970.587,"text":"這個是最好的結果那最壞的結果是什麼"},{"start":3972.861,"end":3973.901,"text":"會不會再增加經費呢?會不會再增加經費呢?會不會再增加經費呢?"},{"start":3998.986,"end":4023.057,"text":"您知道嗎?其實我認識很多的年輕人他們現在工作之後面對低薪、高物價、高房價所以他到了月底的時候幾乎就沒有辦法正常的三餐的支出要不然就吃泡麵要不然一天只吃一餐那你說2.8億已經是最好的結果我覺得這樣對我們一般的老百姓跟一般的民眾真的是一個很不負責任的講法"},{"start":4023.857,"end":4038.207,"text":"那我覺得以這個部分來說我還看到你們在內政部113年度預算編列了支付新式身份證印製設備暫停執行之必要費用還要6375萬9千元請問一下部長這個是什麼樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4043.772,"end":4055.281,"text":"我想這是我們未來這個我們未來要支付就是可以支付的一個費用但他並不一定是暫停執行之必要的費用因為這些最低的費用因為這些"},{"start":4060.304,"end":4065.99,"text":"這些機器你還是必須要維護,你還必須要讓它維持是良好的一個狀態。沒有終止是暫停。"},{"start":4076.179,"end":4093.213,"text":"那請問什麼時候會再恢復?這個就是因為當初這個案子有兩個決議第一個就是要成立一個專責獨立的一個機關第二個就是我們要有一個各自的一個專法這個暫停之後會到什麼時候會再度執行?"},{"start":4097.236,"end":4104.538,"text":"請問到時候那些設備還可以用嗎?你現在每年花6,375萬在維護這些設備到時候也許你是5年之後才會再執行而到時候也沒有辦法這些設備沒有辦法再用了那你這每年還要花那麼多錢的去維護這些可能未來根本用不到的設備請問這樣是不是也是在浪費我們的功能?我要跟你報告如果是計畫重新啟用的話這些機器跟設備還有耗材它一定可以用"},{"start":4124.284,"end":4131.129,"text":"部長我覺得喔你是為了在掩護喔我這個賴清德總統他之前在擔任行政院長的一個說法在這邊感覺上面是為了保住自己的官位所以刻意說賠償2.8億元已經是最好的結果而沒有講出實際上政府已經支付的費用我剛剛已經提到了"},{"start":4148.963,"end":4155.83,"text":"在決算報告我已經幫你算出來了我們到目前為止已經為了這個錯誤的政策實際支付已經超過14億元所以部長你要不要為這個事情做道歉呢所以你覺得為了這個事情"},{"start":4169.944,"end":4179.575,"text":"因為做了錯誤的政策而浪費了公帑14億元你們覺得不用道歉嗎?委員這是一個這是一個延續性的政策我覺得這個是非常適合的一個做法本期希望針對這個政策你們一定要提出道歉"},{"start":4186.062,"end":4194.193,"text":"本席也認為其實你為了要掩護自己這種錯誤的政策故意誤導民眾這個2.8億元只是賠償這樣的金額我覺得真的已經是非常失質了我們在之前其實都已經說明過了"},{"start":4201.602,"end":4224.749,"text":"另外我還要再問您的就是說現在有許多年輕人連男女朋友都不敢交只想當一個躺平族那年輕人的流行語是不婚不生快樂一生請問林部長有聽過嗎年輕人不婚不生對未來可以說是非常的非常對我們國家可以說是非常的痛苦的但是現在的年輕人他們有一個三部政策就是不生小孩不買房子"},{"start":4226.309,"end":4245.495,"text":"還有不結婚請問內政部有什麼策略可以改善這年輕人的三不政策嗎?謝謝委員的詮詢整個的一個這個政策主責是在國發會那我們內政部可以負責的部分或者是主責的部分是在社會住宅的一個提供"},{"start":4246.175,"end":4268.846,"text":"所以剛剛報告的裡面也有提到直接興建社會住宅或者是包住代管或者是提供租金的補助都是現在正在提供的我想這時間可能不夠讓我在這邊聽您回答所以是不是會後可以請內政部針對您剛剛講的社會住宅或是抑制房價這相關的對策跟做法的資料提供給委員會好嗎是沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":4272.401,"end":4292.636,"text":"好,非常謝謝徐域臻委員的質詢。謝謝部長。謝謝。好,我們繼續請王美惠委員質詢。我們待會在黃建斌委員質詢結束之後呢,我們休息五分鐘,讓大家這個上一下洗手間。好,謝謝。主席,謝謝。我們請保定。好,有請部長。"},{"start":4298.513,"end":4308.639,"text":"主席,我們要先探討的就是剛才有說到數位新聞局的問題。我們是在中央會議也有說出治安的環節。在這裏面,我們是最了解在馬英九總統做的時候"},{"start":4320.566,"end":4323.608,"text":"已經要做新聞局的事務委員：但議員在裡面也是很鼓勵大家都願意來做這個問題：是怎樣到現在的時候 有人說要暫停：是甚麼原因 來部長你回答一下"},{"start":4339.977,"end":4356.669,"text":"我認為最主要是社會對資訊安全的事情有更高的要求因為以前你提到的社會身份證也是自衛國家的一個象徵不過未來社會上會有不同的原因"},{"start":4360.032,"end":4361.453,"text":"主席在這裏請教在這個規定當中應該不可以落下"},{"start":4379.606,"end":4388.432,"text":"這個過程從你吃到現在,不要說什麼人吃到,從你臨部長吃到現在,你不要去奴隸這件事嗎?是,委員報告,因為這個會議的展出是你先進來的,我吃的時候最主要就是你處理,如何將這個我們要補充的經驗,讓它越來越好"},{"start":4404.062,"end":4411.51,"text":"這樣就是你吃的時候已經想說要暫停了啦我吃的時候正確一定是暫停啦暫停嘛齁在這裡我先跟你講的就是說暫停的當中議員委員我也有說治安是最重要的因為"},{"start":4423.563,"end":4437.326,"text":"在最近這幾天的時候：有一些我們的主流：外社的時候：有說是你們後勤的問題：在這裏面本身要跟你提議的：就是說跟你請教的：在我們全台灣中央有什麼人有發動：在你們的後勤的主流：在你的單位沒有來"},{"start":4449.068,"end":4456.975,"text":"你回答一下委員你說第二天的...第二天的單位有所有全台灣的補正的資料有第二天的單位有這個資料嗎?就是這個問題啦我們補正會議的系統是除了我們中央之外全國連線第二天的每一年我們中央有70多個機關及單位都有齁"},{"start":4476.852,"end":4484.722,"text":"因為內政部偷這個資料要用去做其他的一個加值的運用因為部長我是要怎麼來請教這個因為當局一來打架也好 詐騙集團也好 打豬的片也好 都是因為"},{"start":4493.032,"end":4496.355,"text":"有主流、個人的主流：卡定位也好：傳證信也好：包括本席現在的所居來賓：還說競議你：求到你可貸款三百萬：我今天來一個月：跟幾百塊我理性而已：：到現在還說有喔："},{"start":4513.311,"end":4522.515,"text":"結果你來想想,我們的資料是如何經常有,再來第二點,不要說民意代表留意什麼人多大,最近你看這樣強迫的定位也好,郵政也好,你們的作為是什麼,讓社會說實在亂糙糙啦"},{"start":4539.165,"end":4545.67,"text":"身為一個執政黨的．是應該愛辣事處理好．理解如何．在剛才的報告．跟本席所了解．你看你們的詐騙集團的．看配多少．在這兩天．四五十月．你奉陪的．公社的署長．"},{"start":4561.075,"end":4562.556,"text":"你剛才聽部長說的說啊有知道這裡三萬五千隻、三萬六千隻有負責,負責是要如何?"},{"start":4562.556,"end":4562.837,"text":"如果一一退回來還要緊嗎?"},{"start":4575.53,"end":4590.219,"text":"委員你說得正確,我們內政部警察最主要是這個騙人騙這個詐騙,但是更重要的是源頭的管理,就是說因為現在都是科技嘛,都是無國界、無差別的公職。對阿,以前都說要科技用就好,要保安,還是要做什麼,還可以那麼大位,結果每次都看起來,每天都很了解,"},{"start":4604.408,"end":4613.174,"text":"講實在,你若在街上接到白色來聽證﹖有的是到處去奉陪你﹖有的是退休﹖想說我們來到處借﹖有的人說趕快不要貪心就好了﹖就不會去奉陪你了﹖什麼人不想說我們多少錢賺一個錢﹖還強加我們的生活﹖我知道這是﹖"},{"start":4627.803,"end":4629.985,"text":"內政部的立定就是高利貸的認證項目"},{"start":4644.033,"end":4667.358,"text":"阿不要怕說他這個好像被詐騙了：然後被笑因為齁這就跟咱們你放在COVID-19一樣你丟這個這個武漢肺炎丟這個肺炎這個你就要知道說現在傳染的途徑是什麼所以我們非常歡迎說民眾歡迎出來這樣才可以靠譜說其他的人不去示範我叫我本來就在這裡要說白色紅皮理論不"},{"start":4668.378,"end":4679.347,"text":"昨年的時候這部分已經改善了。第一就是你銀行端就炸掉了。第二就是你圈存,就是說你如果可以叫詐騙集碼回出去了,我們可以在國分金裡面轉移回出的錢來幫你綁住。要跟你講這個就是說,白色鎖定金來付不出的。"},{"start":4697.202,"end":4702.607,"text":"是完全是無法討討回來有你們說的 他說我們是要解決問題啦 是只要可以找回來 是你們本來就是要做的 只是在明年有無討回來 是要怎樣去協助他們才重要啦 我如果要聽你說真的會討討回來 我今天不用站在這裡跟你說啦 是要說"},{"start":4725.011,"end":4725.151,"text":"國土委書長來,關鍵"},{"start":4750.626,"end":4757.189,"text":"市長本來要說你們的租金這個問題亂糟糟 跟補助人 跟補助人現在又說你們的規格不符合 你們要再想辦法 尤其你們的美意 最後會說 你們如果可以過 你們必須穿過身穿的可以過 我可以過 以後補助到"},{"start":4775.779,"end":4784.106,"text":"我本席在當會期也要說 交易宣判就是要由那時候開始上去 我知道你們很認真 但是在很認真的當中 當中你們審核不對的 一天限制 還要叫人退給你們 我覺得實在審核這個機制 要趕快去處理"},{"start":4799.739,"end":4802.28,"text":"謝謝王美暉委員的質詢 謝謝部長接下來請高金素美召集委員質詢"},{"start":4835.67,"end":4858.729,"text":"謝謝我們今天主席,有請林部長。請林創部長,謝謝。部長早安。您看一下我今天的POINT上面有寫,蕭總統他在2016年他曾經向原住民道歉。他提過台灣號稱是多元文化的社會,但是一直到今天原住民族的健康、教育、"},{"start":4859.75,"end":4875.352,"text":"經濟生活政治參與還有許多層面的指標仍然跟非原住民族存在著落差我非常贊同蔡總統對於原住民現況的這樣子的描述而這些落差呢就必須要各部會一起來努力來彌補你同意嗎"},{"start":4876.935,"end":4895.062,"text":"我完全同意好尤其在內政部是第一大部裡面有關於內政的問題原住民族的問題非常多所以我要好幾個問題今天要就教你第一個議題就是目前地方制度法第33條的條文僅僅對於平地原住民有明確的參政權的保障"},{"start":4895.862,"end":4923.279,"text":"每1500個人至少有一席的平地原住民的議員或者是明代的席次然而3地原住民卻沒有保障然後以部長你熟悉的基隆市為主基隆市3地原住民目前有1541人了他們被迫只能投給不熟悉原住民需求的漢人的議員候選人這種間接剝奪3地原住民參政權的制度您是不是認為應該修法"},{"start":4924.58,"end":4941.69,"text":"我的調查再稍微講一下目前有3個縣市跟9個鄉鎮市區是有類似的情況我也已經提案要修法了是不是請部長我們一起來支持維護山地原住民在都會區的權益您同意嗎"},{"start":4944.242,"end":4966.821,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們已經現在正在研議那也有一些方向那基本上我們是朝正面的一個態度來看待非常好這是一個非常好的消息我也有提案要修法我們一起來努力另外我要幫各村里長發聲尤其是在原住民地區的還有偏鄉的村里長"},{"start":4967.922,"end":4987.961,"text":"您知道嗎臺灣最大的村是花蓮縣秀林鄉的富士村看一下地圖它的面積有529平方公里然後最大的里是在高雄市桃園區的梅山里它的面積有434平方公里而部長您曾經服務過的基隆市它的面積只有132.8平方公里這是我們說的"},{"start":4991.084,"end":5020.452,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":5020.652,"end":5024.059,"text":"還有油價非常的飆升你覺得對待他們公平嗎現在我想現況當然是不盡公平那我們應該怎麼來努力"},{"start":5030.891,"end":5058.248,"text":"跟委員報告我想這一個問題這個我知道委員很關心那也有很多包括地方的民意代表跟立法委員也都不斷的一個倡議那我上任之後其實針對這個事情也做了深入的一個研究跟探討那我們基本上覺得應該是要思考一個符合現況需求的否則因為通常這些原住民鄉我們原民的部落"},{"start":5059.989,"end":5065.352,"text":"好,一個月之內我們是不是能夠來提出一些最符合這些公平的一些這個修法也好或者是建議也好,我們來改善好不好?好,一個月之內,我們再加緊腳步,謝謝"},{"start":5086.363,"end":5103.453,"text":"第三個議題我還提到的是原住民的冰葬設施的問題我們看到冰葬管理科有一個111年到114年的冰葬設施量能的提升計劃他到明年就要結束了但是實際山地鄉仍然有許多的問題需要處理"},{"start":5104.153,"end":5131.741,"text":"比如海拔1500公尺以上或者是在水源保護區裡面的冰藏設施他必須要有環評還有水保法規的限制因此呢我們在山地鄉裡面有非常多的鄉公所沒有辦法趕在114年提報計劃您的這個書面報告裡面我也看到了其實在原鄉只有大概十幾個鄉公所完成了這個計劃請問一下部長您可以承諾冰藏設施量能提升計劃可以延續來辦理嗎"},{"start":5134.724,"end":5155.832,"text":"可以嗎部長委員這一個案子其實陳女剛才說這個到明年時間就到了那也的確還有許多的原鄉沒有這個平常的一個設施我想這一個部分我們會來跟院來做討論希望能夠做適當的一個延長那另外就是另外就是經費的部分來做一些爭取"},{"start":5160.834,"end":5189.845,"text":"一個月之內也提出一些相關的報告好不好好謝謝您好第4個議題就是國家公園向山致敬的政策您跟我提到原住民部落會更進一步的合作跟這個國家公園我們當然支持藉由這個計畫讓非原住民能夠更理解也更尊重然後也能夠推展原住民的文化並且持續跟在地的部落來合作但是我請教部長為什麼目前這個計畫只有11個部落要合作"},{"start":5190.385,"end":5213.892,"text":"然後你們所謂的具發展潛力的部落群．你們是什麼樣的一個定義跟概念請問部長好跟委員報告因為我們住主要因為在整個的一個我們中央的山派其實有相關不同的部會在這個主管對那我們內政部的國家公營署是其中的一個而已所以這個當然是由我們內政部來做這樣的倡議來跨部會的合作"},{"start":5216.373,"end":5236.264,"text":"包括林茂淑﹑觀光局等等所以我們的11個基本上是以我們高山型3個國家公園的主要的露出口的部落來做一個基礎另外跟其他的部會包括教育部、園民會等等"},{"start":5236.644,"end":5245.891,"text":"大家來做比對跟討論找出目前大家初步有共識的11個當然未來也有可能比11個還多"},{"start":5246.857,"end":5273.263,"text":"好很好也就是說我本來要具體建議但是聽部長這麼說我覺得我們兩個是可以有一些溝通跟交流的我們的概念蠻像的比如說園民會他有一個部落清理型他其實有非常多相關合作了比如說林務署他也合作過社區林業計劃的經驗所以您剛剛談到園民會然後林務署還有教育部我們怎麼樣可以跟幾個部會一起合作的意思對吧對"},{"start":5273.783,"end":5296.498,"text":"那必須要通盤檢討來看從地圖上面來看哪幾個部落是可以納入計劃的對嗎?是不是我們也可以請部落他主動來提他覺得是跟這個這個您的這個所謂的具體的建議很好他可以主動參與可以嗎?是當然可以那不過這是因為這11個是因為我們是內政部我們國家公園是我們主管但其他的部分不是我們主管"},{"start":5297.139,"end":5308.651,"text":"我會由我的辦公室來邀請各個部會然後一起來提出共同的平台可以吧好謝謝再來就是防救災的業務了我們看到行政院有一個6.6億的專案來補助計劃你們要協助各縣市購買救災機器人還有無人機請問部長這些資源有多少會投入到原鄉部落"},{"start":5318.641,"end":5318.881,"text":"我以前有提過"},{"start":5334.17,"end":5352.288,"text":"提升山地鄉消防救災的效能計劃總共編列了三年的中程計劃這的確解決了一些原鄉消防和救災效能不足的問題很可惜這個計劃已經終止了是不是可以再思考一下這個是不是在提出適合部落的防救災效能的整合計劃"},{"start":5354.2,"end":5366.471,"text":"無人機及救災機器人最主要是針對人口比較群聚的地方臺東縣的部分有配置各4部原廂的部分是另外一個課題我請蕭署長來做補充"},{"start":5369.013,"end":5397.068,"text":"因為今天時間不夠了是不是請蕭處長你們可以思考一下有很多原住民的兄弟是軍警退伍的這些人士有很多的量能來可以協助救災防災的所以是不是我們可以跟部分的年輕人來結合一下然後也在一個月之內我們提供一下來盤點一下數據然後包括你們消防署警政署裡面的一些計劃量能的提升這些東西把它整合在一起可以嗎"},{"start":5400.136,"end":5420.476,"text":"最後我要聊到的就是在3個禮拜四傳送11年的王光祿獵人案他歷經有罪定驗4至80號的解釋然後蔡總統又特赦一直到現在無罪確定這是原住民狩獵權力的一大勝利知道相信部長應該知道吧"},{"start":5421.396,"end":5449.531,"text":"我們的最高法院更進一步定下了兩大原則第一個是自製獵槍應該包括他自己用自製他用在這個標準底下是容許自製獵槍不限規格只要是族人自己製造或者是族人使用他們製造的槍枝都屬於自製獵槍這是最高法院的裁定第二個是只要是基於原基法第19條的原因狩獵就不受野保法的限制"},{"start":5450.151,"end":5475.088,"text":"部長在列槍規範的議題上面我開過了三次的協調會最高法院的判決他有支持我的立場所以未來原住民在愚民自治列槍愚槍許可管理辦法的這個辦法裡面是不是繼續以族人自治並且用安全性的前提之下朝雙軌制的方案來定立規範可以嗎因為你現在是單軌制"},{"start":5475.888,"end":5490.763,"text":"我們警政署也同意這樣的一個方向不過安全的部分還是很重要這部分是由國防部在負責了解我已經開了三次的協調會了警政署、內政部、委員會我們以這個大法官的解釋之下還有安全的使用規範之下希望這個辦法能夠雙軌而不是只有一軌好嗎好謝謝你"},{"start":5496.909,"end":5497.369,"text":"接下來有請黃建斌委員發言"},{"start":5529.626,"end":5533.269,"text":"主席早安主席我們有請內政部部長好有請林部長市委員好部長好部長其實本席跟內政部有很深的淵源我本席曾經擔任過最基層的村立幹事所以我是村幹事出身我對大概我們基層在推行不管是政策或是社會救助上其實或是第一線有對地方的一定的了解"},{"start":5559.208,"end":5573.443,"text":"那常常在講村里幹事啊大概就僅是有猜對地方的熟悉度可是我有一項他可能沒辦法講就是新進人員這件事情因為我們的管小朋友多進了一個新的戶口我們不太了解他的過去"},{"start":5574.98,"end":5598.397,"text":"所以這在掌握上會比較缺乏一點點的那個正確性但是我們講這個就提到我們在看內政部長的那個報告提到說主要今年內政部有出過這種全國姓名統計分析專書這個專書是作為目的應該是作為我們我國這個姓名制度的改善依據嗎是不是"},{"start":5600.8,"end":5625.332,"text":"也是但也不是因為這個是一個例行的工作我們是依法然後做相關的一個彙整跟公佈部長本是建議內政部是我們全國天下第一大部他掌管全國重要的業務應該更著重在不管是我們的都市計畫的推動基礎建設甚至警消人員的服務這邊應該是要更加強而不是在做這樣的事情那這兩個並不衝突"},{"start":5627.133,"end":5651.689,"text":"因為我也覺得很納悶啊我們統計加好跟數分差點低比這件事對我們未來推動有什麼差別我已經跟你報告了因為那個就是我們因為台灣的戶籍的系統是全世界輔助全球的所以他的資訊非常的完整他等於就是一個大的資料庫所以我們依法就是說就這些大的資料庫的一個內容做一個統計上的一個數字我們要出農民地嗎?"},{"start":5655.591,"end":5675.517,"text":"委員這兩件事情因為那個就是大數據那個就是每年我們都要例行要做而且也是歷年都這樣公布謝謝部長部長為什麼本期會提到姓名這件事情其實像我們最近涉案件裡面發生的就是如果本期要請問如果因為改名的話你們在搜尋上是不是在第一線的人員會有一點困擾"},{"start":5676.584,"end":5692.755,"text":"我們一直改掉之後未來他如果曾經犯過一些需要搜尋他比較困難比如說是什麼目的如果以針對第一時間的第一線執行的村里幹事來講他對村里新金人院的掌握度啊"},{"start":5695.538,"end":5718.49,"text":"當然如果他他沒有比如說如果今天是我們警察的話可能狀況不太一樣那那個村議長他拿到的是我們戶政的這個名冊所以當然他就是現在登記最新的一個名字所以跟警察在查案在辦的時候說所以警察在查案第一時間他如果看到名字他會馬上連結嗎還是要必須調查嗎對不對"},{"start":5719.991,"end":5726.297,"text":"依照我們姓名條第15條第2項的規定罪犯在服刑完後的3年內有權利更改姓名"},{"start":5741.075,"end":5766.768,"text":"不想給更生人一個重新的機會本期會支持本事業維持更生人的權利但是像我們最近發生這個虐殺兒童這重大事件的刑案不強大殺人之間本是堅決反對他們的革命在這邊本期強烈建議內政部應該盡速的修改我們姓名條例相關的法律條款並且採取實質的行動來回應我們社會的期待跟關切以上是這個問題"},{"start":5770.669,"end":5799.101,"text":"我想這個尊重委員的這個意見不過如果要修法的話那個可能要有更多的一個討論所以本席要久的一個月內趕快把這些東西提供給我們本委員會知道因為這個事情是很嚴重委員你希望我們提供的是什麼你們的因應措施啊你們做修法這一塊啊剛剛在提到說這個可能要有更多的討論那我們目前行政院或者是內政部我們並沒有這樣的提案"},{"start":5800.572,"end":5821.425,"text":"蕭處長"},{"start":5826.735,"end":5841.93,"text":"蘇長以台東縣目前的預算你扣掉人事成本之後大概還剩多少錢在執行業務上抱歉我沒有掌握到地方政府這邊的一個裁員蘇長台東縣是全台灣第三大的縣市"},{"start":5847.754,"end":5864.302,"text":"臺中縣政府現在目前的統計大概是411人平均一個人就要守護8.5平方公里的面積那特別是現在不管在救護上還是就在火災救護甚至其他的都會需要仰賴我們的消防人員那這邊"},{"start":5868.873,"end":5873.463,"text":"長期的人力不足很容易導致我們臺中消防工作越來越大然後人力運動頻繁"},{"start":5875.438,"end":5898.071,"text":"那這邊本席要要求在我們臺東縣政府是不是能夠圖更多的人力跟資源是感謝委員關心目前我們正在努力的就是擴充我們基層同仁的訓練那訓練人量我們今年預計在明年會遭受一千位所以只要臺東縣政府提出人力需求"},{"start":5899.211,"end":5923.58,"text":"我們可以來全部來協助臺東縣來協助這方面人的擴充當然臺東縣事實上他對逸銷跟民力掌握得非常好我想委員對於臺東非常了解我們對臺東逸銷民力救援團隊我們的全力來跟他們做協助那同時花東基金這個部分我們投注很多的經費包包括特種經費的運作這個會合我可以跟詳細跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":5925.902,"end":5946.001,"text":"謝謝署長的承諾我想臺灣一個國家不能因為區域性發展不同而有不同的待遇不能因為貧窮限制偏鄉的發展我想這個我們沒有知道這個地方需要更多人也希望我們消防部會我們警政署我們消防署能夠趕快投入來協助我們地方的人力那這邊也謝謝我們署長的承諾謝謝署長感謝委員"},{"start":5952.233,"end":5954.756,"text":"台中縣目前有的社會住宅是海濱豪室、寶山豪室、仁豪豪室總戶數是485戶"},{"start":5970.075,"end":5970.815,"text":"國土管理署署長吳署長"},{"start":6000.317,"end":6023.366,"text":"感謝因為我們當然在第一階段臺東設定的目標是300戶那所以現在3處當然是夠那我想大概委員的建議就是我們會再列到第二階段我們現在已經在進入第二階段的一個總體評估那會再考慮在不管是透過現在的還是包租代管那這我們都會整體再來檢討看看還有沒有增加的可能性因為臺東畢竟服務員"},{"start":6025.327,"end":6025.508,"text":"休息5分鐘繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":6060.582,"end":6061.462,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6063.626,"end":6087.602,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6087.602,"end":6102.278,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":6103.772,"end":6104.152,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6140.111,"end":6162.892,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6163.797,"end":6187.176,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6189.117,"end":6192.2,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6216.439,"end":6216.759,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6233.44,"end":6235.541,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6260.62,"end":6265.969,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6275.367,"end":6305.367,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":6305.367,"end":6335.247,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6335.247,"end":6353.899,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":6360.912,"end":6365.638,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6385.725,"end":6405.312,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6421.476,"end":6443.695,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6446.527,"end":6472.705,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6475.145,"end":6496.954,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6501.323,"end":6522.602,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":6522.602,"end":6539.701,"text":"議員會議員議員會議"},{"start":6539.701,"end":6558.131,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6558.131,"end":6575.282,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6576.763,"end":6592.91,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6597.312,"end":6614.531,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":6626.687,"end":6627.308,"text":"徐欣盈委員"},{"start":6654.324,"end":6680.424,"text":"委員長部長剛剛徐宇貞委員有詢問到數位身份證的問題那本席要再次確認所以現在我們內政部是決定不推了還是您說的暫緩不是內政部決定這個是行政院的政策暫緩內政部是執行單位那現在是暫緩暫緩的過程有沒有任何的努力"},{"start":6681.688,"end":6708.005,"text":"你暫緩就回家睡覺去了嗎?暫緩的過程當然有做努力剛剛提到有兩個部分這是在院的層級第一個是專責的單位第二個是這個各支法當然這個是其他部會所主責那我們的部分就是在已經既有的這個結果之下比如說剛剛在講要進行補償的我們要進行協調另外就是"},{"start":6708.745,"end":6731.015,"text":"已經採購的相關的一個機器設備還有包括我們一直花每年花6000多萬在維護嘛對不對那個是必須要確保它對的既然必須要確保而且部長你也知道每年這樣花費那過去又已經花了十幾億這樣子在進行沒有十幾億也將近10億嘛那所以在這種情況下"},{"start":6732.256,"end":6747.364,"text":"因為那個中央印製廠那部分其實是應該要扣掉因為那個是我們委員會的重複刪因為再怎麼樣數位身份證也是在內政部那部長您知道現在世界各國有多少國家已經在用數位身份證了嗎你知不知道"},{"start":6749.754,"end":6753.618,"text":"內政部的報告就寫82%目前已經有使用數位身份證晶片的國家就有82%預計到2021年底"},{"start":6771.394,"end":6771.894,"text":"等下我先講"},{"start":6797.683,"end":6817.594,"text":"民眾有疑慮台灣的科技不輸人我們是科技出身台灣的科技不輸人為什麼世界各國都可以用了我們台灣不行這就表示我們台灣的政府現在的執政黨就是無能然後這個執政無能浪費公帑"},{"start":6819.055,"end":6839.088,"text":"現在又沒有任何期程你內政部長講不出來我們接下來我們暫停暫緩有餘率暫緩可以我們應該加速啊我們應該加速我在科技上我們來讓民眾可以認同還有我們科技我們在資安上來加強世界各國做得到"},{"start":6839.628,"end":6868.118,"text":"台灣政府做不到這就是一個大笑話所以本席希望我們內政部竟然是尤其護政司這個身份證就是護政司我們應該要盡快的您在行政院院會也要提出來甚至行政院每給期程你都應該要給出期程你都應該要求我們要有期程現在暫停了那麼久怎麼可能每年我還一直在養機器"},{"start":6869.258,"end":6884.202,"text":"等你到你真正要用的時候我機器又要重新開換了因為又過了現在已經過那麼多年了所以我們對這件事非常在意那我們全民對於這樣的一個花費沒有成果也非常在意"},{"start":6885.743,"end":6909.697,"text":"你可以先向全國人民道歉你欠全國人民一個道歉這個不管你的賠償給這個中央印製局到底合不合理或者是你過去的花費有任何的理由我們現在花了那麼多錢都沒有這個成果而且還一直拖延我們希望今天質詢之後那可以加速進行"},{"start":6910.638,"end":6928.911,"text":"世界各國可以我們臺灣一定可以臺灣的科技一定領先全世界謝謝委員謝謝你的指教不過這個資訊上可能有一些落差第一個剛剛在講82%它並不是全部都是數位身份證它是數位證件包括像這個數位晶片"},{"start":6932.353,"end":6932.714,"text":"政府﹗"},{"start":6954.335,"end":6955.736,"text":"我們部已經出去現在正在國發會"},{"start":6978.123,"end":6990.588,"text":"現在在行政院所以你內政部得出去好我們希望可以盡快看到那再來就是本席想請署長請這個警政署長請警政署長請警政署長好"},{"start":6995.902,"end":7019.504,"text":"部長、署長我想請教兩位你們知不知道我們縣市的基層警員有多重身份部長您還做過市長基隆市長我們現在的基層警員非常的辛苦他們多重身份他要取締噪音的汽機車列入縣校檢討所以我們的警察呢成為了"},{"start":7020.164,"end":7035.77,"text":"環保的稽查人員環保局的稽查人員這第一個第二個天氣冷要宣導防範寒流天氣熱要宣導那個小心中暑所以還要跟民眾合照宣導期還要每天回報建樹"},{"start":7036.79,"end":7050.654,"text":"所以我們警察也成為了衛生局的員工再來春節期間還要發放救濟物資給弱勢家庭所以我們的警察也成為了社會局的員工再來我們的警察還要勘查防空避難所還成了公務局的員工"},{"start":7060.037,"end":7068.999,"text":"派出所還成為司法文書掛號性的免費存放地所以我們的警察還要變成郵局的員工"},{"start":7070.509,"end":7092.051,"text":"部長、署長警力有限但是非警勤務是無限你們造成非警勤務無限我們的警察應該是要維護治安打擊犯罪還有維護我們的交通秩序為什麼他們有那麼多重身份我們上級單位不僅沒有替我們警察"},{"start":7093.012,"end":7110.201,"text":"提取他們的辛勞爭取福利還增加這麼多非本業的工作所以可不可以請警政署回去盤點所有派出所的非警勤務提出具體的改進作為一個月內送本院內政委員會"},{"start":7112.175,"end":7128.047,"text":"委員其實這也是回應民意的期待 很多民意代表反映 所以警察才有這麼多工作所以您知道嘛 所以是不是可以回去檢討 而且一個月內送給我們內政委員會是當然沒有問題 不過這裡面委員列的其實也有一些是法定的我們的工作"},{"start":7129.548,"end":7153.361,"text":"最後因為本席今天也有提案我們海巡不好意思接下來也是警察警政署我們海巡跟警察車牌辨識系統的借街建制主席我最後一題這個借街好像海巡署提出因為我們查緝販毒你從港口查到陸地"},{"start":7154.321,"end":7165.501,"text":"那到了市區我們要借接這個車牌辨識系統好像警政署一個海巡署一個警政署署長為難署長那這個情況是怎麼回事"},{"start":7168.326,"end":7178.593,"text":"我現在就是要跟海巡署借街的情況為什麼我們警政署有意見大家共同打極犯罪所以我們請海巡署在請函給那個主管機關做函式如果函式沒有問題就是各自沒有問題的話那本席就說了"},{"start":7198.528,"end":7220.947,"text":"這個韓市從去年的10月向李警政署正式申請一直都還沒有得到回覆到上個禮拜五傍晚本席這邊關切各支法的主管現在國發會要國發會他們解釋說OK沒問題那就可以來後續推動"},{"start":7223.12,"end":7249.251,"text":"所以你們警政署完全可以配合這個還有一個問題我補充一下因為這個建制是縣市政府警察局所建制的所以還要在縣市政府這邊這一關在普遍同意以後這個問題就沒有問題了那你們警政署就應該整合啊我覺得委員的質詢是有道理的我覺得署長跟其他的國發會也好地方政府也好你們應該趕快嫁接起來"},{"start":7251.092,"end":7270.828,"text":"因為我們海巡弟兄我很多其實都是軍警退過去的照理說你們是一家人啊對不對所以呢你必須要有這個剛剛委員有他有一個臨時提案他希望一個月之內你們可以趕快處理吧好不好你不要各施其職啦竟然警政署原則同意我知道程序上的一個流程要完成請聽主席講完"},{"start":7274.991,"end":7275.051,"text":"繼續我們請黃婕委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":7312.261,"end":7313.802,"text":"好是主席我們請內政部長請您部長"},{"start":7321.705,"end":7334.624,"text":"首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何"},{"start":7338.63,"end":7350.765,"text":"從2016一六年其實當時的秀宅大概只有七千兩百戶但是到了二零二三年現在已經快十二萬戶了當然加上準備要興建的總共二十萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍"},{"start":7351.706,"end":7375.015,"text":"我非常肯定在我們這8年裡面做收購住宅做得非常用心其實過去我們也修了住宅法2016年馬上上任之後就修住宅法讓中央能夠開始協助地方來做這些住宅的興建包括土地的取得包括照顧弱勢等等後續其實也修了平均地權條例然後擴大租金的補助"},{"start":7376.876,"end":7404.111,"text":"來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地和一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請"},{"start":7404.631,"end":7408.753,"text":"內政部的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部的上個月其實跟各縣市有開會"},{"start":7427.74,"end":7442.749,"text":"就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有一些縣市有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想要請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎?如果沒有是為什麼?"},{"start":7445.746,"end":7463.094,"text":"謝謝委員的指教目前有用所謂所得收入來分級資物金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做"},{"start":7465.555,"end":7490.229,"text":"不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大"},{"start":7490.91,"end":7506.132,"text":"所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社宅出來之後哇那到時候用新的住進去算會不會更高"},{"start":7506.553,"end":7535.431,"text":"這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的這個租金來計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進一步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的一個這個水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心"},{"start":7535.751,"end":7555.892,"text":"好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整啦因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢沒有我們是用10年中古屋來算"},{"start":7556.552,"end":7573.864,"text":"謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的"},{"start":7584.712,"end":7609.711,"text":"實行業務所得利息收入或者是租賃所得或是產產交易所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嘛那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的"},{"start":7610.491,"end":7626.552,"text":"獲得所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人"},{"start":7628.114,"end":7651.03,"text":"因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個名人社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北名人社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實若是假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的"},{"start":7651.71,"end":7678.566,"text":"的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的"},{"start":7679.946,"end":7700.933,"text":"我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然因為台灣推動社會主義的時間說實在還短,所以我們需要"},{"start":7701.613,"end":7705.474,"text":"獲得的資料確實有很大的問題第三就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整"},{"start":7722.381,"end":7751.582,"text":"那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好 謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款、股票、不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件好 謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長"},{"start":7752.102,"end":7779.744,"text":"最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到NET這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接對我們而入嗎"},{"start":7781.976,"end":7787.282,"text":"可以嗎?那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了?他說他去協助交通處嗎?可以這樣子嗎?他的協助是透盲而入嗎?他第一個去打開門"},{"start":7803.999,"end":7829.629,"text":"他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好"},{"start":7832.19,"end":7844.213,"text":"這個我們其實協助我們奠定一個原則要立定這個原則來依照這個原則來出情好謝謝好非常謝謝黃姐委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝部長跟署長謝謝繼續我們請牛許廷委員質詢好謝謝主席這個部長有請有請林部長"},{"start":7866.81,"end":7891.571,"text":"部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒"},{"start":7892.892,"end":7893.373,"text":"消防弟兄"},{"start":7922.772,"end":7924.473,"text":"事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量"},{"start":7941.155,"end":7951.266,"text":"對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛,換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?"},{"start":7956.392,"end":7985.362,"text":"跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西必須要看放了什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裏面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍所以它其實是遙遙領先所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治防治的東西如果做得好"},{"start":7985.922,"end":8009.933,"text":"相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活載量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活載量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位"},{"start":8010.813,"end":8035.944,"text":"那以部長的認識啦 這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多 絕對是出租的多嘛 對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多 其實會造成什麼樣的問題 其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章的也好 我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租 產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到"},{"start":8036.644,"end":8036.664,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8051.718,"end":8079.878,"text":"自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是好我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8"},{"start":8081.239,"end":8103.404,"text":"剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下既然都發生這樣的事情了"},{"start":8103.684,"end":8123.897,"text":"我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充"},{"start":8125.017,"end":8144.279,"text":"你還補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量所以最近我們整個在檢討"},{"start":8146.24,"end":8169.425,"text":"倉儲部長提到今天上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒水系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法透過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化它安全這是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助"},{"start":8172.265,"end":8175.146,"text":"剛剛署長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設施的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加熱孚大火那就是水量的問題"},{"start":8188.47,"end":8188.49,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":8204.941,"end":8222.271,"text":"第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定的就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個"},{"start":8223.912,"end":8240.006,"text":"消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成之給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮"},{"start":8241.167,"end":8265.996,"text":"那產業重鎮的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定加成加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是"},{"start":8270.718,"end":8284.287,"text":"這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北要 台北要 桃園要我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦"},{"start":8286.929,"end":8287.209,"text":"來 請部長說明還是署長"},{"start":8317.387,"end":8337.55,"text":"我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他還補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給憲政院來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎"},{"start":8337.91,"end":8351.082,"text":"還有哪些 六都一起檢討是不是南山都還沒有進來南山都的意見我們會遵守他的意見以後你們有沒有抓一個時間表應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個踢爆"},{"start":8351.853,"end":8376.404,"text":"這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會增添了考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就那沒辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛對不對"},{"start":8377.905,"end":8398.559,"text":"所以是不是針對這件事情為什麼卡關預計什麼時候可以有個明確的結果大概的你們額度跟你們決定額度的理由是什麼是不是會後請這個消防組跟內政部提供一個完整的說明好不好我跟委員一句話就好其實最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊齁其實那個採組的單位他們有一些考量"},{"start":8399.127,"end":8415.738,"text":"好沒關係嘛我剛剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎"},{"start":8416.018,"end":8416.619,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":8442.217,"end":8446.5,"text":"主席好各位官員各位委員大家早安大家好是不是請那個部長好我們有請您部長"},{"start":8470.976,"end":8496.926,"text":"市委員好部長早首先要跟你請問一下因為本身我的選區在新北市中和那新北市中和本身他這個地區比較特別他居住了大概40萬的人口在新北市的人數是佔了400萬人口的十分之一而他土地算是非常的小大概佔了新北市整體的土地大概只有百分之一的面積所以是地狹人叢的一個環境"},{"start":8499.087,"end":8522.142,"text":"﹗"},{"start":8522.542,"end":8551.726,"text":"第3期的污水下水道接管也要跟部長報告中間已經經過了20年所以很多綜合的鄉親苦不堪言我還記得我小時候我家人都叫我說不要開後門家裡都有後門開了以後那個環境非常的不乾淨然後造成很多的環境衛生或是一些疾病傳染一些問題想這邊請教部長的問題就是說現在我們第3期的污水下水道"},{"start":8551.986,"end":8552.146,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":8569.344,"end":8569.905,"text":"新北市政府正進行"},{"start":8583.798,"end":8604.276,"text":"所以這個期程是新北市政府自己定的那我們中央的部分如果新北市政府依據相關的一個進度需要中央的一個配合款的部分我們就是依進度跟比例來這個來撥付來支持所以這個期程的部分可能要新北市努力一點然後我們會來協助"},{"start":8606.057,"end":8606.217,"text":"主席"},{"start":8625.606,"end":8625.746,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":8648.016,"end":8662.345,"text":"施作的範圍這麼的奇特是不是中央可以跟地方政府大家協調一下不是說中央政府只出錢然後不去管說地方政府他是如何來去推動因為總不能出錢當冤大頭吧那是不是請部長還是誰可以來回答一下"},{"start":8667.194,"end":8687.839,"text":"感謝委員因為其實我們各起的這個大概都會跟幹線幹線支線的一個分佈狀況還有他那個住戶的分佈密度去做一個推計那所以我想新北市政府可能會這樣做大概會依循這幾個原則那所以他可能把它做一個按照這個住戶的密度還有接管的戶數"},{"start":8688.439,"end":8713.848,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":8713.888,"end":8715.991,"text":"中和第三期第一期的標案跟第三標其實我認為他是可以把它結合在一起的"},{"start":8729.873,"end":8756.273,"text":"因為我們綜合的男視角其實人口非常的密集啊所以我認為做這個污水下水道的CP值會很高所以第一期跟第三期是因為把整個結合在一起來做的話可以讓我們男視角相信可能不要等到五年甚至十年以後才有辦法做這個污水下水道的接管所以我這邊是拜託說第一期跟第三期的部分第一標的部分長的樣子很像打斧頭樣子很奇怪"},{"start":8757.054,"end":8782.019,"text":"所以這邊要拜託部長這邊來協助一下這個也是我們中和市民的心聲當時在我剛跟大家報告在20年前其實在做這個第一期的工程的時候其實當時因為我想不知道為什麼很多的住戶因為他當聽到說家裡要拆房子的時候他們就非常的反彈所以造成了一個叫做沒有辦法實際去施行叫做管線阻礙的一個問題那現在"},{"start":8785.16,"end":8803.952,"text":"已經實施到第三期了第一期其實還有一些鄉親他是沒有做屋水下人要接管的那這個部分中要跟地方要如何去合作來去讓一些過去已經未來不知道如何可以做接管的一些鄉親有一個他的生活環境可以變得更好的方式"},{"start":8804.732,"end":8831.434,"text":"好謝謝委員因為一般來講就是說在我們補助給地方政府的下水道經費裡面我們是請地方政府按照期程來推那其實過程當中或多或少有些民眾當時可能觀念上沒有辦法突破或是執行上有困難他不願意配合接管那事實上在地方政府他會有零星的所謂的一個開口工程那這個大概一般都會由地方政府來執行也就是說他可能每年自己有一些"},{"start":8832.435,"end":8860.505,"text":"有一些開口小型的開口合約因為那個每年的戶數都很少那你們這邊有沒有辦法跟地方政府去了解一下他現在有沒有需要中央來去做協助這我們可以來跟新北市政府了解看看因為正常來講我知道他們自己有開口合約在每年在處理那這個部分可能我們也會把委員的意思轉達給他了解就是說請他能夠積極針對綜合一期二期的部分那有民眾需要用戶接管的這個部分再請他"},{"start":8861.586,"end":8862.287,"text":"開口合約不能主動來洽來洽辦"},{"start":8872.788,"end":8872.928,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":8898.881,"end":8925.153,"text":"新北市政府來瞭解看是不是有這樣的機會那也可以請委員也可以這個跟市政府這邊來反映我們雙管齊下好謝謝部長那因為時間的關係我來趕快請教一下我關於也是我們選區的一個比較特別的事情就是說因為本身我是在中和中和有一個人非常知名叫華新街他是居住了非常多這個緬甸的華僑很多東南亞的新住民那一直以來其實不管這個"},{"start":8926.454,"end":8950.16,"text":"不管我相信不分黨派不分顏色都對我們臺灣的新住民非常的重視那想請教有關這個部長這邊我們中央的部分是不是有定期來跟這個新住民的議題來做開會那我們有沒有想說要來成立一個新住民委員會那現在如果有的話現在的這個這個時程大概處理到進度大概是如何"},{"start":8953.433,"end":8968.898,"text":"委員那個在行政院的部分有新住民的協調會報這個是在院的層級所以在院的層級開了會議做成的決議各相關部會他就必須依會議的決議下去這個執行跟推動那另外在部的部分也有"},{"start":8970.118,"end":8984.972,"text":"我們當然會希望能夠加強對新住民權益的一個照顧那其實我們也在跟這個院來爭取更多的一個人力跟這個經費支援那有打算要成立新住民委員會嗎?這個不是我的層級可以回答 這個屬於這個院的層級"},{"start":8988.695,"end":9003.32,"text":"那是不是請移民署長來分享一下說比如說我舉例一下就過去到現在而言比如說像我們在地有一些知名的活動那中央的部分有沒有一些協助的幫忙的地方"},{"start":9005.886,"end":9024.762,"text":"跟委員報告在地方的各項活動我們新住民發展基金其實是可以接受申請的那過去的在每年裡面我們都會在地方的各項有關新住民的照顧服務的一些措施"},{"start":9026.184,"end":9043.098,"text":"我們都接受包括中央政府地方政府甚至NGO團體只要他提計劃來我們都會經過我們基金管理會審查以後就會做部分的一些補助好謝謝署長那我今天就到這邊謝謝非常謝謝張主任委員質詢謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝繼續我們請丁學忠委員質詢"},{"start":9059.003,"end":9062.264,"text":"財務委員我請副長有請林部長副長好副長請問你知道這個憑詐管理條例第21條之一的內容嗎"},{"start":9077.397,"end":9079.598,"text":"這個條例已經實施了17年請問部長有了解各縣市都有執行這個條例嗎?"},{"start":9108.542,"end":9121.498,"text":"他依法的話他就是必須這個提供免費的使用有齁有執行齁是你覺得這個制度是不是很好我想這個既然立法就是大家的一個共識"},{"start":9122.786,"end":9144.473,"text":"有收到那個各縣市的政府反映反映這個政策我想目前實施的狀況應該沒有聽到特別聲音如果委員有聽到相關的意見的話可以反映給我們都受到很多的好評防護這個低收入戶這個大家都很認同是謝謝對啊"},{"start":9145.353,"end":9149.634,"text":"我們全國的低收入戶總共差不多有14萬戶27萬7千多人當我們這個條例通過以後有這些14萬戶27萬多人都有受益如果沒有問題我覺得我們在跑基層的時候時常遇到一些人影"},{"start":9171.078,"end":9173.121,"text":"雖然他的條件他沒有辦法申請低收入戶但是事實證明我們在基層也詢問過地方鄰里一些長輩一些村里長了解一些這個一些一些我們這個人民他們"},{"start":9190.862,"end":9207.696,"text":"一生活方式了解也有其中一部分因為這個條例愛無法申請這個低收入戶他只有可以申請這個中低收入戶因為我們比較我們雲林縣有大部分是比較農村的一個一個鄉鎮他們的收益大部分都是務農來的一些可能是比較長輩"},{"start":9220.666,"end":9244.113,"text":"他們只會列入這個中低收入戶我們運營縣有一個月事慈善會這個月事慈善會針對我們這個低收入戶以及中低收入戶這個艱苦人他們只要有需求他們都會全力協助他們也是集合集結一些攤販大家一起"},{"start":9246.934,"end":9270.957,"text":"共同來做這個公益有聽到他們在反映其實一些中低收入戶他們的的這個收益跟跟一些生活條件其實也是跟那個低收入戶一樣只是礙於這個條例的部分沒有辦法申請到低收入戶我再建議是不是"},{"start":9271.697,"end":9294.217,"text":"我們也把中低收入戶也納入這個21條之一內容一樣免費來使用各縣市的這個殯葬設施這個副長你的看法謝謝委員這個在之前也有人提議過不過沒有形成共識最主要就是這個會增加地方政府很大的財政負擔"},{"start":9295.278,"end":9317.834,"text":"地方政府財政狀況不一所以意見也很多那第二個是因為中低收跟低收它有一個就是我們外部部有一個很清楚的一個界定那另外甚至還有包括像邊緣戶的部分所以現在這部分的一些需求都是由NGO或者明天團體或者善心人士"},{"start":9318.775,"end":9333.372,"text":"來提供這一些公益善心的一個照顧委員的這個建議充滿善心我想我們這個也知道委員的一個意見不過這個是不是還進一步擬聚公司因為這個畢竟需要修法"},{"start":9335.353,"end":9356.186,"text":"對,這個我是覺得啦其他縣市我不知道以我們雲林縣來看我們剛剛我說的一些沒有犯法符合到低收入戶這個中低收入戶的一些資格一些人民也很多在我們中低收入戶在全國是有10萬戶28萬人有28萬人"},{"start":9360.729,"end":9373.719,"text":"如果我們部長可以大家一起共同來協助我們這些中低收入戶我覺得可以確實的幫助到我們這些比較貧窮窮苦的一些人民"},{"start":9377.281,"end":9390.608,"text":"我想政府都希望能夠照顧這個更多的人那剛剛委員的這個意見我們會來盡量的整合各縣市政府大家的這個不同的意見這個部分我們也會經過正式提案先讓我們部長先了解一下"},{"start":9400.513,"end":9425.272,"text":"對阿阿如果內容有什麼問題可以大致大家協議一下齁阿盡量來幫助我們這個中低收入戶因為這個在基層阿我是基層的民意代表出身齁真的很了解基層真的那個辛苦人很多是真的齁阿這個部分再麻煩一下部長齁阿剛剛有在說到我們這個"},{"start":9430.036,"end":9451.073,"text":"我也是雲林縣預銷副大隊長我覺得我們雲林縣消防弟兄大家都是很認真除了警消預銷他們配合在災害發生的時候"},{"start":9451.653,"end":9477.655,"text":"他們都非常積極衝鋒陷陣闖入災區在拯救我們人民我要請教那個部長因為我們警消的部分已經是列為公務人員公務人員在疫消的部分各位疫消人員他們都是士農工商的群組大家組成的一個團體大家會共同為我們消防的部分"},{"start":9478.976,"end":9493.867,"text":"同行協力來協助我們減銷來做救災的部分我要請問說他們目前他們沒有那個薪資也沒有什麼對他們人身有法上的這個機制嗎?你是說基金?機制對他們人身安全法上的機制"},{"start":9506.245,"end":9523.095,"text":"保險是有的,不過委員跟你報告我們目前正在思考擬定我們疫消的整體災防能力的提升所以未來現在疫消其實是做得還蠻不錯的,你也是副大隊長"},{"start":9524.376,"end":9546.244,"text":"我們未來就是希望逸霄能夠接受的訓練要比照錦霄他們都有訓練現在的訓練其實還不是百分之百未來如果是百分之百比照錦霄的話未來甚至是可以給一個正式的認證"},{"start":9547.785,"end":9570.343,"text":"那他等於就是具備性國外消防系會有消防人員的資格?我很多次都到火場現場去看他們救災的狀況其實以他們的專業已經不遜於我們的警消人員他們的勇氣衝入火海的勇氣也不遜於一般人"},{"start":9571.664,"end":9593.688,"text":"是不是對我們預銷未來的一些服務力安全的一個機制還有我相信裝備上我相信內政部這邊已經處理到很到位了是的現在我們正在整體規劃一個預銷的整體量能還有他專業能力的提升的一個中程計劃包括裝備的部分"},{"start":9594.489,"end":9610.724,"text":"大部分我們義消都有辦一些聯誼他們聯誼都是由那個顧問自己籌措經費來協助的我也希望我們內政部也編列一些預算給我們義消人員當作是一個鼓勵這樣好不好我們整體來考量好就麻煩副長謝謝"},{"start":9616.411,"end":9639.418,"text":"好,非常謝謝丁雪忠委員的質詢也謝謝部長跟署長繼續我們請李博益委員質詢因為這個吳祁銘召委跟莊惠雄委員兩個交換所以呢我們請博益委員質詢結束之後呢我們處理臨時提案好幹事長你休息一下我看你很喘好謝謝請李博益委員"},{"start":9647.984,"end":9663.522,"text":"謝謝我們請內政部林部長還有請接下來請警政署那警政署的議題之後再請國土管理署我們請部長以及兩位署長一起上台謝謝部長我們有聯絡方式嘛你有沒有我的email"},{"start":9670.496,"end":9684.102,"text":"禮拜六禮拜六我收到的來你的家庭地址我已經調查清楚請你在Facebook公開發帖會退出民進黨7天內退黨否則你全家會成為刀下亡魂來署長黃署長"},{"start":9685.689,"end":9708.143,"text":"相關類似的這些恐嚇的郵件請問本會的立委有多少位收到了還有多少位沒有收到目前警政署所受理的委員的部分這一件還沒受理啦當天我就覺得太多了目前已經有15件16人昨天黃婕委員在花蓮演講算不算"},{"start":9709.96,"end":9738.008,"text":"昨天黃婕委員在花蓮演講那算不算也是在恐嚇委員是也有受理啦黃婕委員這件有受理那署長我請問你齁我們當然都知道這些是恐嚇我們當然也都覺得這可能都來自境外但是我們希望警政署可以在第一時間有一個很清楚的說明而不是說啊這個我們要調查他的來源啊那等等的我們也有家人欸"},{"start":9738.988,"end":9756.511,"text":"我不報案不代表我的家人不會害怕所以說你要趕快讓我們所有社會大眾可以很快很清楚的了解這些相關的內容到底是怎樣來 署長可不可以趕快做一個明確的說明不是在這裡說明"},{"start":9757.472,"end":9781.99,"text":"未來遇到相關類似的案件的話我們要怎麼樣處理因為我在選舉期間我也不斷的整整一個月都被恐嚇啊整整一個月這個恐嚇信件還跟我對話欸所以我們要怎麼樣趕快讓社會大眾知道這個案件知道這類型的案件知道我們警政署怎麼樣因應讓社會大眾知道來之境外他們的目的是什麼就是認知作戰來署長"},{"start":9783.191,"end":9811.38,"text":"這個我們可以來這樣做就是說如果偵查出來是在境外或者是哪一個國家跳板偵查出來要多久會知道在境外這個一般大概幾個小時就可以幾個小時好到底他的IP是在哪個國家落點好謝謝署長署長您請回內政部其實掌管非常的多那我想要先就這個現在最夯的住宅的問題那我的選區左營男子迎接到"},{"start":9812.881,"end":9840.279,"text":"明年這個台積電就要進駐那台積電進駐之後一千五百個以上的工程師加上周邊的這些就業產業會有非常大量的人口移入目前在這個月 署長 這個月喔高雄臨近左營兩區的預售屋 超過一千戶你知道嗎 都是三天clean 三天完銷"},{"start":9841.787,"end":9869.538,"text":"臨近左營的兩個這個預售都是3天完銷住宅需求非常的大那所以呢 高雄市跟我們住屋中心合作在左營跟楠梓就有4個加上仁武就有4個這個社宅的興建但是社宅的興建跟台積電的這個建廠社宅興建完成跟台積電的這個設廠其實搭不起來"},{"start":9870.738,"end":9888.82,"text":"也就是說短期內會有大量的住宅的需求所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲不只飆漲預售屋也是很快的速度內就去化我們會需要很大量的租金補貼等等的"},{"start":9889.625,"end":9900.662,"text":"目前我們從內政部的報告裡面去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數全台灣一共43萬戶那這43萬戶裡面"},{"start":9904.989,"end":9933.504,"text":"我想有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的這原因包含什麼?原因包含害怕如果申請之後房東就可能我就要請你離開不要租了那這些人要住哪裡?我當然知道我們內政部也有對這個房東有祭出罰則如果你因為這樣拒絕房客來申請可能可以罰3到30萬等但是房客最害怕的"},{"start":9934.204,"end":9956.984,"text":"房東被罰錢他不怕房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去如果在這段時間真的被趕出去我希望我們國土署這邊我們內政部這邊好好來演繹這個問題讓所有的租客可以安心的來申請租屋補貼來 署長相關的安置的內容你可不可以先來回應"},{"start":9961.583,"end":9989.318,"text":"非常謝謝委員的指教那我們現在在我們已經在跟法服中心建立一個法律諮詢服務的一個平台我們預計在今年的上半年基本上把它建置完畢那下半年的時候可以上路這個就是可以提供這個不管是房東還是房客如果他有遇到這樣糾紛的時候可以採取一個法律保障的一個作為"},{"start":9989.798,"end":10007.69,"text":"沒有沒有糾紛啊這也不是法律保障部長這個很清楚就是說如果房客去來跟縣市政府申請租屋補貼租屋補貼之後他如果3個月內被房東掃地出門政府要有什麼措施來安置這個被掃地出門的他是被你鼓勵嘛"},{"start":10008.57,"end":10008.65,"text":"最後﹗"},{"start":10032.603,"end":10060.208,"text":"去年12月內政部通過推動住宅成果提升社會住宅用地的經濟措施裏面希望在2025到2032你還是設到明年開始縣市政府的這個勢力重劃底費地可以提撥5%來作為社宅的用地目前所有這些底費地的標售都超過他的成本我建議內政部"},{"start":10061.528,"end":10068.457,"text":"台中市政府如果要再拿出來飆售的時候 內政部你去飆你去飆"},{"start":10070.047,"end":10093.13,"text":"來作為社會住宅人民會站在內政部這一邊還是站在市場這一邊我想希望這個國土署也就這一方面來做一個表態我來不及讓你回答因為還有一個地方的議題希望國土署這邊趕快來處理就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度他緊接著台積電之後"},{"start":10094.071,"end":10113.677,"text":"那目前他從這個計畫大陸的開闢跟廠商選址是同一個時段也就是現在其實廠商選址之外廠商其實可以進去開始建廠為什麼都還沒有進去因為進不去所以我希望國務署跟高雄市政府這邊可以趕快的來配合讓廠商可以進去選址之外呢他"},{"start":10114.617,"end":10114.637,"text":"來 署長"},{"start":10143.154,"end":10164.993,"text":"首先是我們在明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府他如果土地是可以專案讓售給中央的話那我們直接來協商沒有啦我的意思是說你直接去跟他標啦因為我們大概現在還不能但是專案讓售的話我們當然是希望拿成本來標嘛對不對這樣才對真正的市民是有利的啊不是已經重劃之後的價錢啊對啊"},{"start":10166.454,"end":10166.934,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案總共有7案請宣讀"},{"start":10201.943,"end":10225.844,"text":"主席請教一下主席也宣告了10點以後10點以前截止那現在變成7案了本來不是只有4案嗎那是不是也另外3案是不是我看那個內容裏面可能大家再討論一下是不是今天先處理前面這4案"},{"start":10226.224,"end":10247.733,"text":"是這樣子剛剛那個提案來的時候因為只有3分鐘嘛那我也接受了然後以後我有交代議事處人員未來這個各黨團如果在3分鐘內提出來的我們也都接受好不好好啦不好意思好謝謝您謝謝好我們先謝謝我們以後都比照辦理感謝來我們現在來選獨立案"},{"start":10250.867,"end":10279.188,"text":"臨時提案第一案有鑒於內政部於數位身份證推動過程中為針對社會諸多疑慮如資安問題數據隱私效益不明顯等等進行政策溝通且帶墮訂定專法先招標再開會使專家淪為橡皮圖章前見種種使立法院朝野一致沒有委員支持該案導致巨額賠償費用原提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討與未來政策方向報告於一個月內送本月內政委員會提案人委員徐新寧等三人"},{"start":10280.131,"end":10298.986,"text":"第二案有鑒於執法機關應共同合作打擊不法查海巡署於112年10月12日向內政部警政署申請借鑒測量辨識系統內政部警政署於同年12月29日以涉及各資法請海巡署盡洽各資法主管機關事宜後再行評估審酌借鑒海巡署業於113年1月11日涵發個人資料保護委員會籌備出函式至至今5個月人為"},{"start":10304.87,"end":10316.364,"text":"完成系統借接原提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討報告於一個月內送本月內政委員會提案人委員徐新穎等3人第三案建於台東縣面積3,515.25平方公里占台灣面積9.78%是台灣第三大縣"},{"start":10323.172,"end":10338.345,"text":"就臺東縣113年度附屬單位預算臺東縣消防人員預算緣額僅411人平均一個人負責守護8.5平方公里參照臺東縣消防局2023年救災防護及其他案件類統計火災救護及載送等相關案件總計近26700"},{"start":10342.792,"end":10357.889,"text":"719在加上臺東幅員遼闊以及城鄉社區距離較長長期人力不足下導致臺東消防救護工作壓力極大因此人員異動頻繁據臺東縣政府推估臺東縣需要之消防人力約738人仍有372人的巨大缺口"},{"start":10358.71,"end":10371.487,"text":"黃建斌委員提案要求內政部於一個月內就協助增加臺東縣消防人力與設備資源擬具相關規劃案以維護臺東縣消防環境與人民生命財產安全提案人委員黃建斌等3人"},{"start":10372.423,"end":10387.234,"text":"第4案建於數位身分證換發政策失當契約暫停執行衍生增加費用與內政部在規劃案及管理專法尚未完成前及就章將案件發包給廠商印製驗證建制系統最終因政府政策不透明評估小組輪圍相比圖章學者專家名帶抗議專業被踐踏以及資安及隱私權被侵害風險未解相關運算被本院凍結最後計劃被行政院終止"},{"start":10398.942,"end":10412.916,"text":"得標廠商域履約卻因計劃中止而被暫停執行．因而向政府求償．審計部對此亦含請行政院研謀妥善處理之策．緊速確立新式身份證混發政策．以降低契約暫停執行所產生之不經濟支出"},{"start":10415.999,"end":10424.146,"text":"今年本院委員已多次對此問題提出質詢：內政部期間無法說明清楚政府因內政部數位身分證換發政策適當所購買機器設備系統建置硬製材料及賠償金衍生支出費用超過14億元現已全部轉嫁由人民承擔：內政部推動數位身分證換發政策為施情節明確"},{"start":10436.095,"end":10459.447,"text":"不思改進．意隱瞞．為查明數位身分證換發政策違失情況．自一立法院職權行使法第45條第一項規定．提案建請立法院內政委員會．針對數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失一案．成立調閱專案小組．謹速釐清真相．追究相關事質人員責任．以善盡國會監督職責．提案人委員徐玉珍等3人"},{"start":10460.492,"end":10484.423,"text":"第5案 林口隱世園區社區規劃中央不願重視地方強烈反彈無視林口在社宅數占比已是全國相當高比例之地區且對於周遭國民教育學校都已額滿更違反目前土地使用分區管理不公住宅使用之法令規定對於隱世園區中部分遭廠商欺標之土地難恨評估變更為社會住宅"},{"start":10484.983,"end":10498.186,"text":"原此提案要求內政部兩個月內與地方政府進行溝通重視林口鄉親希望維持原本發展影視園區之目標與願景積極重視地方需求與在地就業提案人委員牛許廷等5人"},{"start":10499.997,"end":10523.057,"text":"第6案關於淡水淡海新市鎮之交通規劃建設因應淡江大橋2025年通車前交通評估及區域改善在2023年內政委員會考察時提出配合淡海新市鎮二期之計劃道路公路總局也確定規劃淡海新市鎮二期從沙崙路北沿40米寬之計劃道路緩解未來淡江大橋通車後產生於淡水端之龐大車流"},{"start":10524.278,"end":10544.955,"text":"考量地方對交通之需求該工程已確定系統建設之計劃其相關單位按規劃之進度加速辦理推動工程進行目標完善區域交通建設原提案要求內政部一個月內完成經費補助審核作業並提出進度之書面報告回覆提案委員提案人委員牛旭亭等5人"},{"start":10546.411,"end":10560.278,"text":"第7案 林口特定區計劃保護區面積佔約11000多公頃目前保護區系一都市計劃法桃園市施行細則與都市計劃法新北市施行細則規定管理相關保護區檢討調整今101內政部4月24日都市計劃委員會第778次會議中決議關於林口特定區保護區開發許可要點之通盤檢討及內容妥適性詳細與檢視後暫行辦理"},{"start":10574.084,"end":10593.496,"text":"為進度延宕及地方鄉親積極關心．使有加速推進之必要．原此關於林口特定計劃保護區提案要求內政部兩個月內邀及新北桃園市府督促提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估作為整體計劃的開展．並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明提案人委員牛許廷等5人宣讀完畢"},{"start":10595.828,"end":10624.284,"text":"好 周委在這邊提醒一下在場的官員還有委員們因為我在9點開會的時候我就已經說了我們的臨時提案是到10點然後呢今天國民黨團有幾個案子是10點03分進入的那麼我跟議事委員交代未來各黨團在10點03分前我們收到的臨時提案我們按照規則大家都一樣所以這是一併來處理第二件事情就是"},{"start":10625.024,"end":10638.319,"text":"提案委員還有這個相關的各部會的這個協調有一些文字的部分本席希望在召開這個臨時提案之前趕快處理好不好因為我已經有蠻長時間給你們去跟各提案委員來"},{"start":10643.644,"end":10662.961,"text":"來交流溝通是不是可以做一些文字上的修正可以修正的我們就不要浪費太多的時間在這邊在大家一起討論如果不能修正的部分我們就來處理好不好目前第三案第6案第7案有一些文字修正那麼提案委員也同意了所以我們先處理這三案請宣讀謝謝"},{"start":10680.382,"end":10695.391,"text":"第三案倒數第四行期待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力部分而這些文字修改為黃建兵這些文字刪除對好"},{"start":10702.302,"end":10709.466,"text":"第三案倒數第4行期待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力刪除現在我們再來處理第6案"},{"start":10715.841,"end":10719.142,"text":"第6案第三行道路的道修正文字"},{"start":10735.706,"end":10763.324,"text":"第二段文字修正委考量地方對交通之需求該工程已確定系統建設之計劃其相關單位按規劃之進度加速辦理推動工程進行目標完善區域交通建設原提案要求內政部一個月內提出進度之書面報告含經費並列及開闢方式回覆提案委員好以上修正文字提案委員沒有沒有問題吧"},{"start":10765.516,"end":10786.326,"text":"夢凱委員好沒問題好沒問題我們就按照修正文字通過好第7案第7案第二段修正委員此關於林口特定計劃保護區提案內政部一個月內督促新北桃園市府緊速提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估作為整體計劃的開展並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明"},{"start":10795.661,"end":10821.182,"text":"請內政部一個月內這個也都念完了是不是好請問一下這個修正文字沒問題吧可以好我們就按照修正文字通過我們現在回來來處理第一案請宣讀一下已經剛宣讀了都宣讀過了那第一案這個提案委員好像你堅持這個部分嗎然後我們的這個相關單位這樣子的問題來第一案"},{"start":10825.933,"end":10847.651,"text":"你們有什麼意見?你跟這個提案委員溝通了嗎?我剛剛給你們大概9點到現在已經有3個小時溝通了。所以如果溝通還不接受的話,那麼我們就表決好不好?可不可以說明一下?請他說明一下,我們沒有聽到啊。好,來請說明一下。拿麥克風好嗎?麻煩你站到上面來。謝謝。"},{"start":10854.769,"end":10873.876,"text":"這部分因為要使一些文字更明確我們是建議修正說原則上我們會提供相關的政策報告的資料那裡面有些文字因為跟現實跟實際上有一點不符所以我們是建議稍微做一下修正比如說第三行"},{"start":10874.696,"end":10889.314,"text":"前階種種使立法院朝野一致沒有委員支持該案導致巨額賠償費用這幾個文字因為這個案子有關花花西市身份這計畫曾經提過立法院而且院裡面也通過那個"},{"start":10891.336,"end":10911.572,"text":"預算而且這個巨額的賠償也還沒有確定這是一個補償不是賠償的費用所以我們建議說是把這幾個字把它刪掉就是前階總統使立法委員朝野一致沒有委員支持該案導致巨額賠償等費用這幾個字把它刪除掉"},{"start":10913.906,"end":10932.064,"text":"請問新委員這個前面這幾個字報告主席前兩分鐘突然拿給我看那我是覺得這個不用改啦就是照這樣內政委員會其他委員也覺得好的是這樣子剛剛稍微我必須要譴責一下你們啦"},{"start":10933.846,"end":10947.283,"text":"從9點我們已經拿到了這個臨時提案一直到今天要處理現在11點33分了在當中你們都沒有跟提案委員來溝通嗎那所以如果沒有溝通的話那本席就覺得這個案來表決來同意第一案的請舉手"},{"start":10948.044,"end":10948.845,"text":"剛才那個官員你是 不好意思"},{"start":10969.568,"end":10997.993,"text":"互證師的代理事長互證師喔他如果說照他所言就是說前階總總使立法院朝野一致沒有委員支持該案那如果這些不是事實的話我們來表決這個一個前提不是的也好奇怪啊那我是支持那個徐委員要求內政部啊來提出整個檢討跟未來政策方向的一個報告那我們中間這個字就變成說是不是也文字來稍微做一個修正啦"},{"start":10998.473,"end":11017.695,"text":"那大家可以來支持你說要求整個內政部對這整個權衛未來該怎麼辦來做出一個報告這個是非常合理的但是如果說在護證實際上所講的就是說也沒有說什麼朝野一致沒有委員來支持該案這個就可能是不是我們通過這樣的文字也不同"},{"start":11018.854,"end":11046.485,"text":"我現在來做一個我們不要浪費太多的時間好不好因為我剛剛一直在講護政司有三個小時請你們去跟委員溝通重視這些文字如剛剛我們的莊瑞雄幹事長所提的但是你沒有覺得我們的行政官員實在是太不重視這個部分了我已經提過在哪一個委員質詢結束之後我要處理臨時提案所以今天我覺得這個例子不可以再開"},{"start":11047.685,"end":11076.099,"text":"我就表決好不好請幹事長理解因為每一個委員會裡面必須要有他的一些些的這個交流溝通的模式那我覺得今天已經有3個小時請行政單位去跟委員而且我必須要說明喔在我還沒有處理臨時提案的時候我一直請議事人員交代議事人員今天的臨時提案請跟行政單位跟委員趕快溝通一直到剛剛"},{"start":11077.88,"end":11085.447,"text":"這個徐新英委員說3分鐘前才跟他溝通你如果你今天做召委你覺得你今天這樣子的一個才是你是不是覺得被踐踏"},{"start":11086.889,"end":11087.269,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11109.856,"end":11129.149,"text":"這個案確實朝野一致就是這個案後來到現在都沒執行就是暫緩所以我就我了解莊委員你那時候你也沒支持啊所以這個我們這樣寫沒有錯朝野一致對這個案就大家都不支持所以這個案才會停下來啊到現在還"},{"start":11130.79,"end":11131.351,"text":"我非常尊重各委員"},{"start":11153.126,"end":11169.749,"text":"我也尊重各行政單位你們在三個小時當中都不去處理這樣子的一個文字溝通我要給你們譴責所以呢我們就表決來第一案我們來表決同意徐欣櫻委員所提出的這個臨時提案請舉手謝謝幾位好我們是本委員會裡面的來表決1234566席同意來不同意的請舉手謝謝"},{"start":11186.038,"end":11213.039,"text":"一二三四五六六席同樣的那按照立法院職權行使法如果大家有意見的話那麼就是主席可以來做最後的決定所以主席也同意這個臨時提案謝謝我們第二個處理第二個臨時提案對現在的表決是7比6所以這個第一案我們就讓他表決通過謝謝來臨時提案第二案這個文字來說明一下"},{"start":11214.298,"end":11216.422,"text":"我們的行政單位來說明一下請署長來說明一下"},{"start":11221.666,"end":11245.877,"text":"早安各位委員大家好我想臨時提案第二案我們是建議倒數第一行的對前案提出檢討報告能不能改為進度報告因為這是去年的10月12號提出來的而且是涉及到很多行政部門還有縣市端的協調聯繫我們是不是改為進度做一個說明以上"},{"start":11247.47,"end":11274.026,"text":"蘇長你們是什麼時候跟徐新英委員去溝通的也是3分鐘之前嗎沒有早一點但是我有跟大家提說就是檢討報告因為這個就是有問題所以我要請你們檢討嘛就這樣好 檢討裡面可以喊進度報告沒問題剛徐新英委員在做質詢的時候本席也聽得非常的清楚啦蘇長的確這的確我覺得你這個辨識系統界階的部分你們應該禁書而且好像有一段時間沒有處理了"},{"start":11275.367,"end":11302.444,"text":"然後其實呢只要你們能夠再跟其他的行政單位來協調合作其實就可以盡早好不好好所以呢這個好是那呃那個新委員進度報告你還是堅持檢討報告對吧好那檢討報告那我們還是一樣就尊重提案委員是不是可以補充好你補充因為這個有涉及到國話會啦因為國話會的部分我了解對那我們還要再去跟他們"},{"start":11303.224,"end":11304.985,"text":"解釋他們的見解以後"},{"start":11333.524,"end":11351.873,"text":"所以這個全部規則在我這邊檢討是涉及到行政部門沒關係啦你就把這件事情給扛起來嘛好不好因為我剛剛講過海巡署有非常多的警務人員好不好可以嗎好那我們就來部長你還有什麼說明補充一下"},{"start":11355.121,"end":11379.311,"text":"我非常尊重委員的意見不過因為涉及的是國發會國發會是行政院的目標單位那因為這個是它是主管機關我們必須尊重所以這一點也必須特別報告請委員這樣子我們一些文字修正心您看就是說是不是提案要求內政部跟其他的部會來提出進度的檢討報告好不好可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":11384.597,"end":11407.993,"text":"進度也放裡面我們才比較能夠要求他們提出進度的檢討報告對啊進度的檢討報告可以嗎過程的檢討報告我覺得過程就不要了啦我們就請這個反正您是今天提出吧我們也尊重您就從今天開始我們來請他們提出檢討進度報告好不好可以吧好來來再念一下好"},{"start":11411.247,"end":11432.634,"text":"修正文字最後一段原提案要求內政部與相關部會提出進度檢討報告與一個月內送本會內政委員會這樣可以了吧署長好吧好謝謝您好現在我們來處理第4案第4案這個請問一下有沒有部分要說明好也是代理市長"},{"start":11440.462,"end":11456.261,"text":"主席各位委員這個案子我們是先有個徐委員這邊有稍微說明一下也有跟辦公室的主任來溝通一下那目前比較有共識的部分是計劃終止的部分改成計劃暫緩因為整個計劃還沒有"},{"start":11459.204,"end":11477.304,"text":"沒有終止是暫緩那第二個部分是補償金那個不是損害的補償他是他是一個他不是賠償金他是一個補償金所以2461011行裡面那個補賠償金就改成補償金那比較"},{"start":11482.435,"end":11505.405,"text":"比較有跟委員沒有一致的部分是委員是希望說他還是希望能夠成立一個調查小組來調查相關的資料那我們是希望說能夠在一個月內提供數位身份證換發政策及預算執行的書片報告給內政委員會一個月內那這一部分是比較沒有共識的部分以上"},{"start":11506.015,"end":11522.862,"text":"好謝謝大理司長我們看一下246第7行的卻因為計劃中止那個中止呢徐委員是同用暫緩兩個字然後接著下來就是機器設備系統建築印製材料以及那個補償金的部分"},{"start":11523.962,"end":11552.048,"text":"賠償金的部分他同意列為補償金然後這兩個的文字是同意這樣修正然後到了後來就是之一立法院執權行事法第45條第一項規定提案建請立法院內政委員會針對數位身份證換發政策及預算執行維持議案成立調閱小組調閱專案小組徐委員提案委員是堅持要成立調閱小組那你們是有意見的對不對好請問一下徐委員"},{"start":11553.168,"end":11578.354,"text":"本席堅持要成立調閱專案小組因為其實在這過程中就像剛我在質詢的時候我從決算報告中看出來我們其實目前已經已經花了14億多但是呢內政部卻只用2.8億這邊來告訴大家這是這樣子的一個賠償金所以我認為這個部分應該是要有這個專業的這個專案的調閱小組才能夠把這個事情釐清"},{"start":11581.415,"end":11595.434,"text":"提案委員堅持用要有成立調閱專業小組我們是不是也來表決一下請問一下民進黨的幹事長我跟主席還有跟在場所有委員來報告一下這個案子其實"},{"start":11597.145,"end":11613.031,"text":"第8屆的時候我就跟主席我們在這個地方當初整個從2013年針對國民身份證跟治安人憑證結合開始去做研究他的第8屆第9屆然後到了20我看一下在"},{"start":11616.187,"end":11629.974,"text":"行政院他去在110年他的會議裡面暫緩整個數位身份證的一個換發以後我記得在我們在2021年朝野協商的時候是把整筆的預算來做一個封存"},{"start":11631.235,"end":11653.93,"text":"那你現在如果說你說要調一小組基於立法院我們說其實我們過去也都有這個先例我阻擋不了我對這種事情監督行政部門的沒有那麼堅持本來就立法院就發揮監督的一個功能可是還是會碰到一個問題就是說你如果說你像比如說你衍生文字裡面有沒有可能把"},{"start":11655.251,"end":11667.567,"text":"不是我我最不擔心的就是我們整個委員會裡面做出的我們表決完我們表決那個前提事實是那個事實怎麼是用表決的呢就讓他們適度的說明你所謂到底是多少你說的好你跟那個徐委員要的是調閱小組啦"},{"start":11672.313,"end":11678.56,"text":"我只是覺得也合理啦但重點就是說你那個訴議要跟我清楚啦你那個他如果寫錯了你們也要跟他溝通好啊正確的數字講一下我相信徐委員也不會堅持說哇你的兩頁他跟你說你的14頁14頁你不來個提醒請他趕快修正一下才對所以那個數字我反而會覺得說"},{"start":11693.437,"end":11718.973,"text":"這個在朝野政黨之間本來跟行政部門大家去溝通把文字弄得更精確這是好事啦稍後我再次做這樣的一個提醒啦好 謝謝莊委員長我們請徐委員主席我想剛剛莊委員這邊所提到的數字我是依據我們這個內政部的決算報告裡面所計算出來要我這邊一筆一筆的嗎 唸出來嗎"},{"start":11723.764,"end":11739.869,"text":"總共就是我得到的資料就是14億超過14億所以我想這個我是有所本的所以我還是堅持既然在這邊說不清楚我覺得我們就是成立吊約專案小組來讓他們講清楚好謝謝門會委員我們請行政部門來稍微說明一下對比14億的部分"},{"start":11749.632,"end":11759.003,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個徐委員提到這14億裡面其實是沒有那麼多啦裡面有重複計算的部分我跟我委員一一報告齁第一個"},{"start":11761.126,"end":11780.904,"text":"這個費用裡面第一個是我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分是以他印製每一張多少錢來支付比如說一張可能是一百八兩百塊這個是按照期間快速一點好不好因為剛剛徐委師有所本他是從這個決算書裡面看到的"},{"start":11784.847,"end":11800.696,"text":"中印跟他的委託廠商東元之間的賠償費用是2.8億這個是買材料的費用那第三個部分是中印為了要執行美印自我的數位身份證他自己去整修廠房跟購買設備這一部分是大概3點"},{"start":11801.937,"end":11802.117,"text":"第4案請問民進黨委員"},{"start":11830.609,"end":11847.823,"text":"好我們的尊重部長來請您快一點快速的來說一下我們代理市場在講的太複雜簡單來講委員剛剛提到的是決算嘛那個是沒有錯數字沒有錯不過中央印製廠的決算數是我們內政部撥給他的所以那一部分是重複計算大概是這樣子"},{"start":11848.343,"end":11850.485,"text":"請問一下民進黨的委員 內政委員會委員 我們是不是可以來處理這案了"},{"start":11866.002,"end":11892.64,"text":"我是不是這樣建議大家一起來同意文字做修正你覺得文字應該怎麼修正看你們內政部這邊可不可以再提一下其實我們看到有一些文字修正的部分他都已經有修正了請問一下莊委員你對哪一個文字還有意見"},{"start":11894.926,"end":11898.424,"text":"你有什麼意見?有沒有提出一下你的很好的見解?"},{"start":11902.881,"end":11928.557,"text":"稍微問了我不敢不回答啦不敢不回答我尊重大家就是說我們這個整個臨時提案裏面其實也不用去放進去太多好像是你是說數字嗎費用的數字嗎數字你那個解釋完了我可以接受因為我們立法院這個地方還有哪裏還有哪裏您覺得像譬如說犯法政策委屍情節明確不屍改進刻意隱瞞"},{"start":11930.318,"end":11955.925,"text":"這個聽起來就怪怪的啦我們要去調查他既然要調查他就先不用去審判他啦為審先判的那種感覺我們請提案委員來是不是接受莊委員的建議不接受因為其實針對這部分我們確實感受到的就是有刻意隱瞞之嫌所以為什麼要希望能夠成立釣魚的專案小組就是希望能夠把這部分的疑慮釐清"},{"start":11958.029,"end":11982.468,"text":"好這樣子好不好我們把那個為師拿掉好不好換發政策請換發這個這個為師情節明確那我也同意剛剛那個因為我們還沒有釣魚小組我們的確不能夠為審先判我們成立了釣魚小組之後呢我們才可以瞭解一下他們是不是有為師的情節這一點我倒是同意莊瑞雄幹事長的提議好不好可以嗎請問學員我們在這邊文字修進好我們請議事人員來幫我們想一下如果有成立的話這個"},{"start":11987.672,"end":11994.415,"text":"理事長第4案修正文字"},{"start":12017.952,"end":12043.307,"text":"提案建請立法院內政委員會針對數位身分證換發政策及預算執行議案成立調閱小組競速釐清真相追究相關私職人員責任以善盡國會監督還有前面這個身分證換發政策為師情節明確這個為師情節明確把它拿掉內政部推動數位身分證換發政策"},{"start":12046.701,"end":12047.602,"text":"不思改進 刻意隱瞞"},{"start":12070.018,"end":12098.905,"text":"你臨時提案的第一個我們這個第4案那個賠償改成補償了對但我們第一案賠償金變成補償金那第一案還是賠償費用這樣我們的內政部我們內委會我們兩個案子的這個用詞不一樣我是不是爭取徐委員徐信義委員的同意我們第一案也是把賠償變成補償這樣我們內政委員會我們出去的才有一致"},{"start":12101.141,"end":12126.932,"text":"我們剛剛臨時提案是已經通過了但是我也尊重委員但是我今天要再提的就是呢我們的行政單位並沒有在3個小時之內去找徐委員溝通所以呢剛剛昭偉才會就給他們一些懲罰希望他們以後尊重一下昭偉在這邊所說的每一句話請他們提醒他們所以剛剛的這個建議我還是來這個"},{"start":12129.813,"end":12130.395,"text":"新英委員"},{"start":12140.769,"end":12141.77,"text":"第5案有沒有文字修正?"},{"start":12167.659,"end":12167.899,"text":"來請說明署長"},{"start":12191.508,"end":12216.337,"text":"人家有一個意見那其實我想我們在過程當中因為現在評估還沒有一個結果我們評估有一個結果其實都會跟地方政府去溝通所以這種有關其中的一些文字是不是可以因為我們有跟委員溝通他有一部分文字還是不同意修正但是我覺得站在對國有土地的一個管理跟規劃以及長期因為新北歐是社宅缺口最大的地方"},{"start":12217.037,"end":12225.91,"text":"那是不是可以讓我們可以在評估的時候評估以後來跟地方溝通我想這一點我們是會尊重但是有些文字我們還是希望修正"},{"start":12226.755,"end":12250.26,"text":"好我們也請提案的牛許廷委員來做一些這個回應這個是這個孟凱委員有特別跟我講啦齁因為這個狀他會這樣子用這樣你不是共同提案人嗎因為是我們主席領導所以縱使這個黃孟凱委員不在牛許廷委員在好謝謝這個原因是這樣因為我想部裡面應該也清楚林口鄉親有抗爭有連署所以作為民意代表如果沒有辦法用"},{"start":12251.56,"end":12276.277,"text":"這個你也沒辦法讓孟凱委員跟林口的鄉親交代啦所以希望這一部分部裡面是不是多多擔待那這個臨時提案的總體的意旨關鍵其實還是希望中央跟地方進行完善的溝通啦所以我覺得文字修正與否不影響這個提案的意旨啦是不是就趕快那我就特別再多講一句如果真的溝通的結果林口不要對不對那來跪山我來幫你溝好不好你的社宅進度也可以照常推動"},{"start":12278.518,"end":12301.253,"text":"這是國有地那剛好位置在林口事實上就是那邊的鄉親有抗爭所以我了解所以我的意思說因為我們本來程序上就在做評估其實不要不需要用到蠻橫這種字眼因為國有土地本來在交給我們因為他剛剛有講是很堅持啦那堅持後沒有尊重他啦好不好因為畢竟那是在林口的事情嘛好不好所以希望部裡面擔待一下好來我們請政務員"},{"start":12302.614,"end":12319.187,"text":"跟主席還有跟國務委員報告這個在新北市這個才你看總統大選才選完才多久而已新北市確實是在整個社宅的部分缺口是最大的各個政黨在選總統的時候都是信誓旦旦要多花錢多花錢那"},{"start":12321.849,"end":12327.772,"text":"我是比較難想像雖然我們不是在屬於領口這樣的一個選區可是整個社會住宅的建制希望再繼續增加這是各黨大家都希望一致的政府而且在內政委員會我們一直要求內政部要求國土署每個人來修理每個人的進度都上過班還要趕快找像我都一直要拜託"},{"start":12347.942,"end":12374.507,"text":"拜託你們一直再去找那怎麼會據說這個剛好是那個廠商棄標的國有土地然後你去把它做平均變更為社會住宅會變成是蠻橫的評估評估也還沒出來搞不好評估出來新北市政府是很開心的也不一定阿中央出錢阿又企劃你住在這除非你告訴我說林口這個地方完全真的都不需要社會住宅所以是不是阿"},{"start":12374.887,"end":12381.099,"text":"就像剛剛劉永遠所提到的部分就是你的意旨是希望再去溝通那既然是這樣子的話這種比較情緒性的真的不要啦這個說什麼那蠻橫評估我也不知道不然該溫柔評估"},{"start":12387.93,"end":12389.231,"text":"謝謝莊惠琼委員的提醒稍微這樣子提這個意見雖然這個劉雪婷委員聽一下不好意思"},{"start":12416.371,"end":12416.591,"text":"蘇長你同意嗎?好"},{"start":12436.528,"end":12465.262,"text":"OK大家同意的話我們就用這個蠻橫這兩個字拿掉當然最重要的是兩個月之內要跟地方政府進行溝通好嗎第5案我們這個文字用進行大家同意嗎好我們就臨時提案第5案通過然後第6案第6第7都已經同意了嗎好的非常謝謝大家我們的臨時提案7案都處理完畢了我們先休息3分鐘然後待會再進行我們的質詢謝謝好不好謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":12468.019,"end":12468.363,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12474.394,"end":12498.063,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":12498.063,"end":12510.725,"text":"議員會議員會議議員會議"},{"start":12512.807,"end":12532.329,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12532.789,"end":12533.21,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12555.333,"end":12577.671,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12577.711,"end":12578.071,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12596.237,"end":12611.954,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":12616.86,"end":12617.761,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12634.496,"end":12634.736,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12659.684,"end":12660.124,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12683.507,"end":12708.729,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":12710.589,"end":12736.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12739.827,"end":12741.029,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12759.322,"end":12766.689,"text":"我們現在繼續開會 我們中午就不休息繼續我們的質詢現在我們請莊瑞雄委員質詢 謝謝謝謝主席 有請我們內政部林部長有請林部長我們警政署黃署長"},{"start":12785.54,"end":12786.02,"text":"目前公務機關不管是聘用人員 約戶人員"},{"start":12810.53,"end":12825.748,"text":"公務人員一樣並不適用勞動基準法而是屬於公法上的契約的關係因此沒有辦法去適用說五一勞動節的一個放假本席來舉兩個例子比如說一個單位裡面同時有公務人員有業聘人員還有派遣性質的臨時人員但在勞動節"},{"start":12828.351,"end":12848.686,"text":"一個單位裡面有些人可以放有些人不能放這個大家都很清楚那另外就是中央跟地方公職啊你自己看二萬一就好了啊很多助理啊這些幕僚啊適用勞基法但基本上都是配合著公家單位還有公職人員的一個工作的一個作息啊所以大部分其實我的了解啊也都沒幫啦那也有人啊"},{"start":12849.787,"end":12855.253,"text":"也沒有人會刻意去注意到這一群很辛苦為這個社會國家在付出的一個群體這被勞動節給遺忘了本身還記得我去年在被這一題去年在被大眾討論的時候人總的回應是說"},{"start":12867.685,"end":12881.791,"text":"要交由內政部去研議因為你們是紀念日跟節日實施辦法的一個主管機關你們的回應更有意思當時委員提案要把這個辦法升為法的位階你們尊重立法院最終的一個決議"},{"start":12883.112,"end":12901.121,"text":"其實這個問題單純是公務員員要不要放應該是人總就能夠決定並來匯給你們但經過一連串這樣討論下來非常大的困難就出在教職人員的一個部分大家很清楚就老師放學生沒放怎麼辦早年兒童節只有兒童放假但兒童放假"},{"start":12906.804,"end":12907.044,"text":"所以兩個問題請教部長"},{"start":12933.265,"end":12935.949,"text":"是否認同比照兒童節模式的可能目前全年休假日已經滿了部長先前受訪也講說需要有配套配套是什麼先請教"},{"start":12949.945,"end":12967.119,"text":"委員其實你非常清楚這一個問題還有方向大概是怎麼樣不過你剛剛提到的那個課題的話基本上現在在思考應該是朝向一個正面肯定的方向在前提"},{"start":12967.819,"end":12968.64,"text":"方向明確樂觀其成"},{"start":12987.811,"end":13015.013,"text":"是的,但是因為這個涉及這個因為我們雖然是主管機關那法當然我們要修不過這還是這個涉及的是全國的這個事務不是方向明確你說方向明確樂觀其成但問題就是又沒有答案那我問你五月一號可不可以試用我想應該最近這個院會有整體最近應該就會有一個答案"},{"start":13016.054,"end":13016.335,"text":"5月1日試用沒問題"},{"start":13043.656,"end":13065.46,"text":"我沒有辦法幫院做這樣子的一個報告你這個意思是說方向明朗啦樂觀其成這樣對吧我想我們是正面的方向來看其實正面就是大膽就講有什麼關係胸脯就把它拍下去接下來要來請教我們不能漸越先感謝啦希望5月1號我們內政委員會這樣的一個建議以後啊因為這個其實這個長年的老問題嘛那可以解決這樣的一個問題是好事啦"},{"start":13071.201,"end":13075.342,"text":"另外我要請教就是說根梢法實行快兩年我們何時去啟動修法檢討的一個評估我請教署長的就是說我們2021年11月根梢"},{"start":13096.238,"end":13119.563,"text":"根梢法三讀通過以後我們在2022年的6月實行將根梢行為明確去入罪並導入書面的一個告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線那被人報案以後警政單位的開立書面告誡給行為人然後明確告知說你違法兩年內再犯被害可以向法院來民事庭的申請保護令如果再違反保護令的話可以刑責"},{"start":13120.063,"end":13134.314,"text":"好了那你跟稍法施行到今年兩當啦從111年6月到今年1月底你們總共受理了4000高霸44間開立的書面告誡3480件違反書面告誡315件從這個數據可以看得出來現行開立的書面告誡雖然是一紙行政命令但是呢確實達到主後的一個效果但本席的問題是說我們"},{"start":13146.762,"end":13168.861,"text":"這個法還有很多可以去努力改善的一個空間我來舉例我今天去理事法法治委員會有講過韓國那個主播主那個企鵝妹來台灣全程在直播在環島的時候粉絲開始在對對到他沒有人有人去報案後後來他跟社會規定書面來告誡開立告誡以後是在保護令面前宣誓說我警方已經介入了但是這有一個問題"},{"start":13170.766,"end":13181.122,"text":"他們還一直洗洗洗在這段時間如果申請保護令合法這段時間保護令還沒出來以前如何去保護北韓人的安全這第一個第二個喔"},{"start":13183.379,"end":13203.832,"text":"稍後我馬上結束第二個很大的問題就是說我們其實其實我們有做出我們有做出決議我們有做出決議就是說我們去年內政委員會還質詢完以後警政署這邊很快就召開一個諮詢小組跟相關研討會跟商法通過立法院三讀通過以後我們通過附帶決議是說內政部必須要三年內去檢視現行法令我們也需要調整我要請問警政署你們現在的規劃如何請一併回答"},{"start":13215.166,"end":13236.948,"text":"首先第一點就是如果他有再被根燒的話其實警方可以協助他做一個保護的工作就可以這樣子來執行第二個問題就是說有沒有到今年底要啟動修法我們大概根據專家學者以及協助研討會的一個提出來這段時間執行的內容大概有一個問題就是"},{"start":13238.809,"end":13264.045,"text":"這個警察跟檢察官一直前來申請保護鏈的部分大概法官很多都不同意所以希望把它入法也就修在那個根梢法母法裡面來入法那第二個問題就是相對人處理機制這塊這塊可能還要跟衛福部再做一個討論比較細緻的討論來入法才有辦法來推動所以等於說他還有其他的部會要一起協同來處理的是嗎那這不要開玩笑因為"},{"start":13264.966,"end":13265.166,"text":"繼續我們請紅森漢委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":13297.11,"end":13321.637,"text":"請部長也請林部長來 委員好部長我時間不多我很快速的跟你請教其實現在我們在租賃市場上面很多房東超收租客的電價來賺差價部長你知不知道這個現象我們知道有一個現象來看下面這張表"},{"start":13324.656,"end":13346.496,"text":"那你看一下我舉這個為例房東一層如果各層五間套房兩個月收一次電費五間套房如果大概用兩千度這是合理的度數為例的話在台電的電費單上面可能大概是他會被收台電會跟這個房東收八千塊算下來的話這是下月哦平均一度電大概四塊出頭一點點"},{"start":13347.777,"end":13357.241,"text":"但現在如果房東平均一度電收5.5塊5.5塊可能已經很客氣囉現在我們看到6塊6.5塊都有喔如果收5.5塊的話這一期房東可以賺3000塊如果他是收7.69塊的話一期房東可以賺差價7000多塊部長你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":13372.865,"end":13383.832,"text":"我想這個當然很明顯的不合理部長現在我們看到這個狀況我們非常非常憂心我其實自己也是租屋主我過去也是長期被超收電費"},{"start":13386.233,"end":13405.182,"text":"現在我其實已經質詢了包括經濟部包括我也跟內政部講過我們已經都談過很多次現在台電其實已經成立了租屋電價透明專區已經把這個透明專區建立起來了這是台電的動作快於內政部的地方可是不然我跟你說現在按照我們的規定"},{"start":13406.543,"end":13425.718,"text":"只要在夏季每個房東還是可以收到7.69塊分夏季還是可以收到6.03塊簡單來說我們還是認為房東超收3塊左右的電費是合法的部長這是我們現在的規定部長就我們的規定合不合理"},{"start":13428.67,"end":13441.391,"text":"我想這個當然也不合理好不然我要提醒其實我們的電價其實是國家或我們國營事業來做一定的成本的吸收跟補貼出來的結果房東居然拿這個補貼來賺差價"},{"start":13444.141,"end":13472.103,"text":"今天如果我們國家要在電費上面給一定的優惠照理來說我們的優惠是給房客而不應該反而是被相對權力比較大的房東給拿去反而現在是房客在受害喔是年輕人的房客在受害尤其是住在這些出租套房裡面的年輕人在受害喔所以部長我跟你報告從去年4月到去年11月內政部開了兩次的會但目前幾乎沒有下文"},{"start":13473.442,"end":13484.251,"text":"我不斷的追包括從上個禮拜在追目前都沒有下文我們的內政部還是允許房東超收一度店3塊多以上的店價部長你覺得接下來該怎麼辦"},{"start":13486.659,"end":13510.028,"text":"委員我對您報告一下這個在上個禮拜我有親自針對這個問題召開會議那我們大概幾個方向第一個是租屋的公共設施電費已經有向臺電申請分算者這部分沒有問題那現在有問題的是租屋的公共設施電費沒有申請分算或者是申請電表的獨立電表這部分有問題因為那"},{"start":13512.769,"end":13540.448,"text":"這部分我們現在打算把它放在這個定型化契約裡面去律定另外就是如果今天這個租屋者就是說房東沒有去在針對公共設施去分設這個電表的話我們有一個方向就是說這一部分應該是由公共設施的這一部分的電費由房工來負擔部長之前內政部給我的回答都是因為房客可能也不知道平均電價是多少"},{"start":13541.269,"end":13565.498,"text":"但現在在台電其實已經設立了這個透明化專區以後其實按照台電的程序他們是可以查得到自己的平均電價的所以現在缺的靈門一角是內政部應該在我們的租賃契約應記載跟不得記載事項上面明確規定房東不得超收超過平均每度平均電價這樣子的規定就應該規定上去而不是再用現在的每度電還可以收到7.69下月收到7.69"},{"start":13568.899,"end":13569.84,"text":"謝謝委員指教那個我上禮拜親自開會然後也做了一些方向上的"},{"start":13591.416,"end":13620.099,"text":"確認跟支持那最近應該是最近這一兩個禮拜我們會再開一次會然後就應該可以收點訂單部長所以一個月內可以完成這件事我想一個月內沒問題部長我要給你看一下下一張我們是現在最擔心的現在台電可能因應成本會來調整電價房東居然又在抄收上再抄收然後租客認為不合理政府又無法可罰最後明月回到政府其實這變成是一個loop"},{"start":13621.794,"end":13641.492,"text":"這變成是一個loop我們希望我們接下來在內政部的動作上面就可以阻斷這個不當的循環不要再讓超收這種不正義的事情發生部長你現在也很重視 我知道你很重視建築的節能你可以想像今天假如一個房東他一度電他可以超收3塊你覺得這個房東希望房客多用電還是少用電"},{"start":13643.158,"end":13643.318,"text":"拜託,沒有問題"},{"start":13673.458,"end":13673.618,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":13710.51,"end":13714.773,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請部長我有請林部長"},{"start":13729.768,"end":13749.972,"text":"陳委員你好部長好2008年的時候蔡總統在自由廣場跟台灣社會道歉說那個時候上一次民進黨執政的時候推極有法的修正不利跟社會道歉現在已經是2024年了請問蔡總統莊嚴的承諾什麼時候要兌現?集會遊行法"},{"start":13755.99,"end":13759.893,"text":"什麼時候要兌現他改革的承諾請教部長請教部長請教部長請部長回答這個是內政部主管的業務請部長回答我們請部長說明回答一下謝謝我想結合法的部分我們"},{"start":13781.536,"end":13796.914,"text":"在我們也會再跟相關因為這個其實你也知道這個其實也牽扯到相關蠻複雜的問題牽扯到什麼複雜的問題這是你們的政治承諾啊跳跳到現在2024年欸什麼時候要修正"},{"start":13798.427,"end":13826.12,"text":"部長你還記不記得你以前在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候你對於極有法的評價是什麼你是不是曾經說過現行的極有法有違憲之餘請部長暫停時間請部長回應跟委員報告這一個案子因為之前有送到立法院不過藉其不續審又推回來了第9屆的時候這個是蔡英文跳票的解釋嗎"},{"start":13828.137,"end":13856.174,"text":"這是蔡英文票票的解釋嗎我在請教你啊你在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候是不是認為極有法有違憲之餘我想集會遊行的部分當然我們應該隨著民主政治的一個進步來做改善我想這一點方向是所以做了什麼改善現在我的問題很具體嘛民進黨執政8年做了什麼改善這個是你當初"},{"start":13858.311,"end":13885.902,"text":"在當副秘書長的時候集會遊行法違憲應廢除你還記得嗎你還記不記得我想這一部分在這邊說明一下倒不是像委員說的這樣子因為這一部分我們的確是在相關我跟妳報告一下因為在之前相關的一個會議我們其實是有進行不過在之前疫情的確是緩了一下暫停"},{"start":13887.363,"end":13888.364,"text":"所以拖了8年以後法案還在內政部繞嗎?"},{"start":13906.898,"end":13924.196,"text":"是有在進行,因為剛剛在講3年的疫情期間的確是暫停相關的一個事情3年的疫情期間跟休期會遊行法到底有什麼關係啊?因為會議沒有辦法召開嘛可以拖拖成這樣?本月那個時候前4年內政委員會都停擺喔?"},{"start":13925.277,"end":13941.549,"text":"不好意思我那四年因為人不在立法院我想請教一下昭文這四年我們內政委員會有停擺嗎沒有停擺我們繼續開會的你在扯什麼啊沒有沒有委員那個時候像疫情的嚴重時間你也知道那個沒有沒有相關的一個召集會議今天你站在這裡"},{"start":13943.51,"end":13956.859,"text":"告訴大家蔡英文跳票的理由是因為疫情大家聽得下去聽不下去我們接受檢驗請委員不要這樣子貼標籤我剛剛已經說過了哪裡講錯請你指教嘛我剛剛已經說過了我們在今年的六月份我們會送部會議來進行審查沒有關係嘛所以是有進度的繼續拖嘛繼續混嘛"},{"start":13968.906,"end":13993.298,"text":"委員你講話可以小聲一點我都聽得到好來沒有關係我們繼續看當初你在當基隆市市長的時候人家要去申請國門廣場結果被你喝斥了說齁哇這種為了搞選舉不擇手段國門廣場不可以舉辦政治性的活動講的是正正有詞阿結果呢去年選舉的時候這場活動在哪裡舉辦的"},{"start":13997.157,"end":14016.582,"text":"委員我跟您報告第一個在我執政時期包括我們的市民廣場還有所有的廣場我們不准舉行相關的一個政治活動這樣的態度跟立場是一致的對嘛所以呢所以不換你執政的時候人家開放了你就高高興興的跑到國門廣場去做政治聚會喔委員"},{"start":14018.903,"end":14028.387,"text":"新的市長他要開放這個廣場那就是依照相關的規定去申請了KPK主席也在那個地方來舉辦了我們把它定位成是一個市民活動的廣場蔡英文那時候說什麼把街頭還給人民啊"},{"start":14042.552,"end":14063.593,"text":"只有在自由的街頭我們才有自由的社會啊這是我們民主進步黨的責任啊你自己在當市長的時候國門廣場搞政治戒嚴別人開放的時候馬上喜滋滋的去那邊搞政治活動我有說錯嗎委員我們沒有搞政治戒嚴請不要這樣子亂貼標籤啊這一點我完全不接受"},{"start":14064.673,"end":14073.295,"text":"我們廣場在你市長任內的時候不是不能舉辦政治活動嗎?我們所有的市民的開放空間回歸給市民舉辦相關的活動所以按照你這樣講這個不是回歸給市民舉辦活動我們舉辦一般性的活動但是現在他們不做這樣的決定嗎?我們尊重現在的市政府"},{"start":14090.266,"end":14093.568,"text":"委員 請瞭解整個金融市當時的狀態 這一點你剛剛講的這個指控我完全不接受 謝謝"},{"start":14111.499,"end":14116.201,"text":"你先不接受是你的事啊我尊重委員說話不過也請委員那我還是自己主管違憲嗎現在自己當部長對自己主管的法規違憲毫無作為啊"},{"start":14127.765,"end":14128.466,"text":"無期名召委質詢"},{"start":14151.735,"end":14152.676,"text":"國土管理署署長"},{"start":14172.776,"end":14201.371,"text":"好部長早上大家都在談論四位身份證的造反那四位身份證這是在過去啦也不是你任內啦在那個治安的風險以及隱私的保護那目前已經停止了那廠商的球場2.8億是不是請我們副政司來做說明嗎這還是還是部長你來做說明"},{"start":14203.134,"end":14203.494,"text":"4.8億還有2.8億的補償那加起來"},{"start":14233.153,"end":14248.716,"text":"7點幾億嗎?對,這是我們在預算執行的部分,決算的部分因為這一定要說明,早上10幾億,所以有重複的計算包括我們支付給中央印製廠的經費"},{"start":14253.443,"end":14254.484,"text":"請部長休息,我們請署長,謝謝"},{"start":14272.103,"end":14294.898,"text":"市長現在我們整個社宅的推動現在進步怎樣跟委員報告其實現在都符合我們原來設定的目標那我們在目前截止直接興建已經到了9萬5千多戶那今年在目前的這個開標也都非常順利我想今年直接興建也沒有問題那包租代管"},{"start":14296.099,"end":14305.909,"text":"應該會超出我們原來的預期因為包租貸款成長率很高那租金補貼目前的申請數也已經遠超過50萬戶那所以今年要達標這個租金補貼50萬也沒有問題那"},{"start":14310.7,"end":14340.226,"text":"租金貸款現在你說現在已經已經有超標了那整個包租貸款那你整個國債20萬戶那包含包租貸款那有沒有有沒有辦法今年就可以達標跟委員報告就是直接興建的9萬5以後我們目前跟地方政府到今年截止各個案的這個開標都非常的順利所以在今年應該把說可以把如期的達成這些案件的一個"},{"start":14340.936,"end":14341.761,"text":"一個一個開標跟開工來興建"},{"start":14344.721,"end":14352.963,"text":"好,這樣很好,因為怎麼樣這是大家都很關心的我們的蔡總統過去所有大贏的20萬戶那8年會達成這個目標那未來我也在這向署長來拜託因為在土城三峽這邊的年輕人的國債需求量還是很大未來在這邊要如何推動"},{"start":14372.108,"end":14396.049,"text":"議員．"},{"start":14396.949,"end":14397.069,"text":"內政部部長"},{"start":14424.656,"end":14449.754,"text":"國路管理署跟住戶中心一定會聯手跟地方政府合作一起再把社宅的數量持續的擴大好的因為你剛才所說的我們的土層我們要顧這四地重劃這裡面有一塊那個社宅還有一塊就是幾光四村幾光四村是國防部我們早期也有規劃這邊要來蓋社宅"},{"start":14452.156,"end":14467.3,"text":"那我請問吉光市村這個案子你有了解嗎?有有,它現在就是道路的部分還有跟市府這邊在協調,那我們其實進度都持續在辦理中,那個沒有什麼問題。這個國產路有問題吧?沒有。沒有問題啦。對對。好。"},{"start":14471.892,"end":14472.892,"text":"3月18日及20日二天一次會議"},{"start":14487.757,"end":14488.257,"text":"跟委員報告就是"},{"start":14510.894,"end":14528.491,"text":"只要接下來有去亂徵收勢力重劃的案子我們都會優先在會跟地方政府來協商優先來劃那除非他真的真的在規劃上沒有辦法配合我們會也跟他協商優先用專案讓售把他這個不管是抵費地或是"},{"start":14529.051,"end":14529.311,"text":"：新北市政府"},{"start":14544.972,"end":14545.572,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14571.614,"end":14574.775,"text":"市長現在詐騙集團打詐是政府最積極要來出題所以現在已經把我們說在我們的私費身份證的延續就是因為有這個智慧"},{"start":14594.52,"end":14595.02,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14620.408,"end":14635.363,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛委員可能提到的是大概個資外洩的問題導致我們被民眾被詐騙那這個大概這種類型大概解除分局付款那種手法是比較多比方說我們去購物完了以後就接到電話"},{"start":14636.224,"end":14636.244,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":14653.904,"end":14673.337,"text":"這個部分還有就是政府的一個簡信有政府同意碼的一個簡信發送的部分那速發部也是已經建置了透過公開的公的那個發布那個簡信來這個比較有公信力很多配套措施都一直在推動進行中"},{"start":14674.378,"end":14675.219,"text":"非常感謝齊明昭委的質詢謝謝署長謝謝繼續我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":14713.233,"end":14738.873,"text":"主席有請部長我們有請林部長部長好辛苦了部長要跟你談不再起投票希望能夠從原住民族的立法委員實施不再起投票我們看這個今年"},{"start":14740.011,"end":14767.168,"text":"印尼在臺灣實施不再起投票在今年的2月14日印尼的這個外勞在我們來說外勞印尼的移工在臺灣實施不再起投票這個你看這個地址這個下面的地址是花蓮瑞穗鄉我的媽媽89歲"},{"start":14770.137,"end":14797.064,"text":"照顧我媽媽的勞工外勞是印尼的他在台灣已經投票兩次了在台灣已經投票兩次了那今年2月14日印尼的總統大選還有國會議員這個他的勞工我的外勞我家的外勞的勞工8個月前來到台灣因為切工所以他進來了"},{"start":14798.902,"end":14799.122,"text":"議員提供"},{"start":14822.301,"end":14831.73,"text":"印尼在台灣實施不再舉投票103年就開始了103年108年113年已經三次了所以這個部分我們真的是我們自稱為民主法治國家連在台灣我們都沒有辦法實施"},{"start":14846.626,"end":14862.449,"text":"所以這個真的是印尼幅然遼闊他們的移工到臺灣都可以直接就實施所以這個部分這個部長真的是要我們就先從最簡單的為什麼援助民主我們非常這個臺灣很小要跟印尼比我們真的很小但是我們卻沒有辦法做到"},{"start":14874.181,"end":14898.615,"text":"尤其是原住民的立委的選區台澎金嘛每個地方都有投票所最容易實施的對不對最容易實施的我就不曉得為什麼我們要跑到這麼遠的地方去投票所以我們的投票率你看看原住民的立法委員跟非原住民的投票率的差距這麼大"},{"start":14900.083,"end":14900.243,"text":"本席："},{"start":14909.114,"end":14936.043,"text":"這個也提出公職委員選舉罷免法第17條的修正草案針對原住民的立法委員先實施這個我也提出總統副總統罷免法第13條的修正草案也是針對原住民的立法委員先實施不再舉投票確實沒辦法做到本席在第一次提案是105年了106年"},{"start":14940.229,"end":14958.565,"text":"12月7日內政委員會審查通過108年3月11日完成草野協商很遺憾的沒有完成三讀我上一屆也提了這一次又提了這一屆又提部長可不可以先實施這是最容易的非常謝謝委員"},{"start":14967.746,"end":14981.841,"text":"大概這些都演繹過我們因為國情的狀況真的還是不太一樣那第一個是現在如果比如說是中央的選舉的話那如果要這樣子做的話大概會有76種的選票"},{"start":14984.384,"end":15012.131,"text":"也就是區議會第三種然後政黨還有山地跟平地原住民所以加起來會有76種選票這個在實際的選務上面會有執行上的一個困難那所以政策上面還是希望說我們從那一致性的比如說公投的這種公投案的部分來顯現那至於選舉的部分你還要再看或許推動的一個狀況"},{"start":15013.786,"end":15038.191,"text":"我強調的是原住民的立法委員先實施不再起投票就跟你剛才講的完全無關喔好我們就講總統選舉台澎金馬對不對原住民的選舉立法委員喔也是台澎金馬有什麼困難中選會從上一屆我質詢中選會"},{"start":15043.203,"end":15068.266,"text":"他們都說完全沒有問題在作業上完全沒有問題在作業上完全沒有問題所以這個可以做的講了剛剛的理由人家從國外來到台灣都可以實施我們只不過是在台灣而且在限收在限收到原住民的立法委員的選舉"},{"start":15070.694,"end":15088.341,"text":"公選會都說完全沒有困難但是每次都說因為這個法律不是我主管是內政部可以嗎因為我們都有提案請這個召委能夠安排"},{"start":15090.912,"end":15114.853,"text":"希望部長能夠也認為樂觀其成宗教團體以自然的名義登記不動產處理戰刑條例這個已經這個法例當初審查了所以我主持的但是很多都沒有辦法這個被接受所以現在已經實施一段時間了請內政部把目前"},{"start":15116.307,"end":15140.817,"text":"實施的結果目前這個條例實施的結果提個書面資料給我可以嗎好沒有問題好多久可以一個月內好一個月好謝謝非常謝謝我們的部長的回應也謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢一個月之內送到除了這個政委員辦公室之外也給我們其他的原住民立法委員好謝謝"},{"start":15143.138,"end":15151.082,"text":"王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員不在張雅玲張雅玲張雅玲委員質詢張雅玲不在繼續請吳麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長有請林部長"},{"start":15170.183,"end":15198.287,"text":"委員好部長好首先感謝因為過去我們都非常的關心就是原住民地區現在我們看到警察越來越少所以我們也希望外面的原住民級的警察呢也有機會依照他的意願反擊服務反向服務那謝謝在上一週我看到內政部的回函有針對這個部分讓我們知道說有去修訂修改辦法了"},{"start":15198.687,"end":15200.548,"text":"未來我們的原鄉反擊會變得更順暢在這邊謝謝但是除了反擊服務我們也是要去看還有沒有可以做的事情過去質詢我一直關心"},{"start":15213.678,"end":15231.149,"text":"原住民把我們的警察當作是一個大家很願意投入的職業曾經高峰期都高達原住民在我們的整個警察裡面高達有7、8%可是您看一下光是這10年"},{"start":15234.051,"end":15260.107,"text":"因為進入的管道窄了加上大量的退休光是這10年就從4.2%一直下降到2點多已經不到3%那這個現象我們就想說開源節流嘛那是不是能夠開一些門我們就希望說警政署可不可以去增加原住民的一個警察考科那非常謝謝部長也非常謝謝署長"},{"start":15261.888,"end":15285.032,"text":"從之前我們這個質詢的過程當中我們發現你們都是支持的、肯定的、積極的那考選部那邊也是這樣的可是警政署是說希望在一般警察的內科去增設原住民行政類可是我現在就是想要問一下部長跟署長關於你們這個意見目前辦理的進度你們知不知道考選部的意見"},{"start":15292.453,"end":15308.204,"text":"這部分我先請黃淑蘭教授說明跟委員報告那考選部的意見是說在希望在警察特考裡面來來辦理對他不希望說在行政的體系的部分來增加的警察好對"},{"start":15309.866,"end":15312.589,"text":"人民的意見是不一樣的但是也是很支持那他的理由是什麼他說若是人民特考的精神"},{"start":15326.606,"end":15353.785,"text":"所以要在原住民族特考裏面增加行政警察類科取代警政署提出的意見也就是說在警察特考中加入原住民族行政的考科因為他說依照新增類科處理要點的規定他說不可以在同一個考試中新增同樣職務的類科那我想要請教一下部長或署長如果按照考選部的這個方案"},{"start":15355.066,"end":15358.77,"text":"因為這個是他們支持的方案 那請問警政署這邊會碰到什麼問題?為什麼會有問題?"},{"start":15376.629,"end":15377.991,"text":"有很嚴重嗎?不能夠解決嗎?"},{"start":15392.012,"end":15408.323,"text":"對,因為他影響到原住民同仁的權益,所以我們還是要跟考選部這邊,現在目前在積極溝通所以你們還在積極溝通?是是是,因為考選部的總會會了我一開始找警政署來問的時候,其實你們是說因為原民特考不是國家考試啦"},{"start":15409.524,"end":15436.8,"text":"說最好是國家考試你們才能夠轉嫌但是我現在要講的就是說依照我們的公務人員考試法他有特別提到就是會因應特殊機關像是身心障礙者援助民族之就業權益可以比照前項考試舉行12345等類科的特種考試其實這個就是我們援助民族特考的授權的母法我們是從公務人員法這邊授權的"},{"start":15438.361,"end":15457.069,"text":"現在我們來看一下如果說修正警察人員人事條例施行細則他就修了這個第4條所以就有了這樣的一個說只依公務人員考試所舉行的高考普考初考還有特種考試之警察人員考試及格"},{"start":15457.589,"end":15473.448,"text":"所以在這個地方我們就發現他的一個解釋就不一樣了啦所以我是在想說這個部分麻煩因為你們剛剛有提到你們也跟考選部已經在積極溝通嘛是不是可以在兩週內提出一個方向"},{"start":15478.543,"end":15493.212,"text":"另外一個我想問一下因為在今天的內政部的業報當中有看到未落實司法院的這個803號解釋推動原住民漁民自製獵槍漁槍的許可及管理辦法的立法工作"},{"start":15493.692,"end":15514.704,"text":"然後112年5月起辦理了8場分區座談收集各界意見以提升自製列槍的安全性那我也要特別先感謝因為部長署長謝謝之前我們說要求你們再重新去辦分區座談你們也都做到而且我記得不是8場而已你們還加了1場應該是再加宜蘭8加1 9場那我現在要問說請問你們現在在收集意見嗎阿有沒有那些需要再修的"},{"start":15524.91,"end":15545.742,"text":"這個我請黃署長說明謝謝委員我想我們在收集意見的時候也有提到說是不是自治列槍的部分也要那邊到我們辦法裡面這是你們收集到的意見嗎基本上還有委員的支持有一個提醒是這一方面可以那我們基本上我們也是同意雙國制"},{"start":15546.562,"end":15547.103,"text":"再加上最高法院的判決"},{"start":15561.516,"end":15579.512,"text":"照理說槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例這個也要修進去所以我也想知道你們重新公告有沒有包含這些內容還有包括那個自製獵槍的部分那我想因為時間的關係我在另外提那個書面的也希望你們可以到辦公室來討論可以嗎"},{"start":15581.313,"end":15591.122,"text":"人民會會在3月份會再開會就安全的部分跟國安部一起做的我也希望人民會它其實有一個原住民族司法諮詢委員會我是希望說這個部分未來針對非知識列槍定定的這一些諮詢跟確認的機制其實都可以善用人民會的這個原住民族司法諮詢委員會好不好"},{"start":15603.496,"end":15608.339,"text":"我開了三次的協調會也把國防部納注進來了那麼在我們的這個魚槍獵槍自製的範圍裡面第一原住民的自製已經可以雙軌制了以前警政署可能只有單軌就是進口的這些零件做成了一把槍之後原住民才可以買它"},{"start":15627.651,"end":15646.396,"text":"但是現在因為我三次開了協調會現在國防部也進來了警政署也進來了原民會也進來了國防部會將對槍砲彈藥條例裡面五個合格的這些零組件把它變成原住民可以自製那我就想知道國內的廠商也可以製作了吼"},{"start":15647.715,"end":15652.438,"text":"只要符合那個規格國內廠商也可以製作﹖是嗎﹖署長部長﹖那國內廠商如果符合規格也可以製作嗎"},{"start":15670.165,"end":15671.006,"text":"國內廠商也可以製作嗎?所以國內廠商也可以來製作?"},{"start":15687.824,"end":15688.605,"text":"對,因為如果是按照這個邏輯只要符合規格原住民也可以製作嘛對不對"},{"start":15701.411,"end":15701.791,"text":"繼續我們請黃珊珊委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":15746.384,"end":15758.992,"text":"臺北市送到內政部有兩個很重大的議案然後到現在從我在臺北市副市長卸任到現在內政部都還沒有什麼進展主要有一個可能部長也清楚的是大灣北段"},{"start":15759.973,"end":15783.756,"text":"當然北戴安送到內政部他在105年被監察院糾正然後臺北市政府已經按照相關的都市計劃並相關的要求做一些相關的規劃那也送到內政部整整快5年了5年的時間我認為對的決定要做不對的決定也要做不做決定是不對的"},{"start":15784.847,"end":15804.069,"text":"也就是拖了5年這5年我知道中央跟地方一直有來來往往我也曾經拜訪過前任的徐國勇部長所以我想問一下到底現在整個大灣北段中央的意見是什麼還有未來的類似的狀況能不能夠再避免"},{"start":15806.796,"end":15831.955,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心我上任之後其實也針對這個案子做了一些了解目前的一個進度是這樣子我們這個內政部給市政府幾點建議第一個就是請市政府依照建物使用的執照時間次序第二個是違規使用與否還有第三是變更之後使用項目還有強度第五是房價你認為這些問題需要討論五年嗎"},{"start":15836.218,"end":15840.841,"text":"所以問題是在哪呢?我同意他是一個前無古人的案例必須要定出一些原則如果中央有很多的意見應該定出一個規範"},{"start":15863.137,"end":15888.449,"text":"一個以後不要再發生的防備的措施然後這個案子部長你覺得要怎麼解決是按照台北市的方案去計算金額還是直接把他們拆光光當然都不是第一個是我們也提了一些建議那目前台北市回的是指六項裡面其中一項就是空地的部分他們有同意那我們希望就是說其實可以針對其他"},{"start":15889.109,"end":15910.78,"text":"他們不同一個五項應該還有空間這樣子會比較符合公平的一個原則所以部長很簡單需要有什麼問題一次講清楚不用這樣再來揮揮手如果一個民眾他這樣等了五年他也不知道他的房子將來怎麼辦我覺得這樣是不對的無論如何一個政府不可以放在那邊150年然後沒有任何進展"},{"start":15911.44,"end":15931.101,"text":"委員講這句話我非常同意是不是可以在您的不管您有沒有留任在520之前應該有個初步的方案了吧我非常希望所以比如說像之前我們在處理社子島的時候我也是直接跟蔣市長直接溝通是的大彎段的這一個部分我們也打算這樣子來做"},{"start":15932.202,"end":15945.334,"text":"好,重點是時間趕快做決定如果有要什麼補資料每一次都是補一點補一點二月五月十月各補充一個資料我看了這個東西就覺得我們內政部不應該是這樣的效能啊"},{"start":15946.376,"end":15946.917,"text":"立法院內政部部長"},{"start":15967.429,"end":15977.183,"text":"三月八號說部長把公文退回所以我到三月十八號今天還調不到任何涉及到相關進度的資料這是怎麼回事?是部長不想給我公文嗎?倒不是"},{"start":15982.128,"end":16010.108,"text":"為什麼說部長把官員退回說我要再等呢 時間 抱歉委員我跟您報告一下因為最主要是因為我們都要看新聞才能知道內政部的訊息嗎倒不是 跟委員報告一下因為我跟蔣市長碰面是一個非常重大的一個改變所以我們很關心我們才需要知道內容啊 是如果這個內容我們都不清楚的話怎麼 這不是很重大嗎是當然重大 那應該要讓委員知道吧 是"},{"start":16010.868,"end":16035.67,"text":"你到了18天的資料很抱歉我會請迪恩斯這邊趕快給你送過去所以現在的進度如何了現在的進度就是我跟蔣市長大概基本上有共識因為之前的大的都市計畫還有交通的問題基本上方向是值得要檢討那這蔣市長也同意那另外就是他的時程有沒有時程"},{"start":16037.128,"end":16046.915,"text":"不要說同意,那時程怎麼樣?對,有兩個問題嘛,第一個他5%的社宅能不能做到裡面?他不需要,因為他的負擔已經超過50%,在那一天我們有溝通所以你不留社宅?"},{"start":16059.623,"end":16087.488,"text":"不是,它裡面有那個就是要遷移的專用的那個是當地安置的對,那是安置的我們不強加,不要求臺北市要在裡面再多增加設宅這一點我們是可以同意的因為它的負擔已經超過50%第二個部分就是安置戶現在最擔心的就是這些人的安置還有所謂的替儲我只需要知道內政部有沒有規劃的時程"},{"start":16089.364,"end":16116.875,"text":"提供時程。我想所有的居民都在等。臺北的最後發展也是這一塊。我也很希望能夠盡快讓他訂案。不過委員我跟您報告一下他有兩個問題。第一個最重要的是交通的問題必須要先訂案。所以我在這個禮拜我也會去拜訪侯友宜市長把這部分再把他。部長這些事情大家都很關心。所以把相關的進度都一一的跟我們做說明。給我一份完整的書面報告而不是這樣"},{"start":16117.515,"end":16121.136,"text":"繼續我們請陳雪生陳雪生陳雪生委員不在林俊憲林俊憲林俊憲委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在林德福林德福林德福委員不在"},{"start":16143.212,"end":16169.862,"text":"謝依鳳 謝依鳳 謝依鳳委員不在游浩 游浩 游浩委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在傅坤祺 傅坤祺 傅坤祺委員不在陳俊宇 陳俊宇 陳俊宇委員不在何新淳 何新淳 何新淳委員不在林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":16170.923,"end":16176.327,"text":"紅夢凱 紅夢凱 紅夢凱委員不在羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員不在繼續請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席我請內政部林部長好 有請林部長謝謝主席"},{"start":16198.175,"end":16210.974,"text":"部長兩個問題啦一個設施的開發第二個大灣北段我先說最近我看你們內政部的一些表現作為我覺得你們好像有點數饅頭的心態啦"},{"start":16213.497,"end":16234.403,"text":"好像大家等著照畢業照的所以那些回答都蠻敷衍的啦比方說我現在先談社址島的開發我想社址島開發我相信部長也有相當的用心力但是整體給我們社會大眾尤其社址島居民的感覺覺得"},{"start":16236.704,"end":16263.661,"text":"你們都是原地踏步沒有任何的進展我相信設施島你去看過就曉得那是幾乎已經到了不人道的對待啦設施島過了晚上八點像個鬼島一樣啦沒什麼公共建設衛生下水道沒有連一個基本的不要說醫院連一個診所都沒有"},{"start":16265.014,"end":16269.44,"text":"路燈愛亮不亮亮一邊沒有任何的地標惡臭不堪"},{"start":16273.047,"end":16294.937,"text":"攝氏島的居民忍受了70年好不容易30年前開始提到要開發政府先是問肚子餓了你要吃中餐還是西餐牛排好不好義大利麵好不好還是吃刺身麵問了30年問到現在還是回到原點肚子餓了你要吃什麼拜託"},{"start":16297.128,"end":16320.679,"text":"你先給碗白飯吧總可以吧不是嗎這樣子欺負人那麼現在各項的民意調查97.5%的社址島居民都贊成要開發而且我們贊成的這個案是已經經過十幾二十年跟市政府的會商這叫社址島生態開發"},{"start":16325.026,"end":16349.278,"text":"深海設施島的計畫可以滿足包括我們設施島居民也滿足環保團體的要求也滿足全體市民對設施島這樣兩岸流域難得的我們可以促進成為一個水岸城市這是共同的一個看法嘛結果送進來內政部三拖兩不拖就拖了三年多"},{"start":16350.534,"end":16377.387,"text":"拖了三年多每次都大概大家耐性都耐不住就稍微問一下那內政部從先前幾年下來每次每拖了一年大家問就回一張文回個文簡簡單單五六十個字就打發掉意思就是說當地還有不同的意見那還要找各界再來研議"},{"start":16379.385,"end":16398.439,"text":"隨隨便便搞了一年多回一個五六十個字拜託一天寫一個字也不用拖一年啊結果這樣三拖兩不拖就搞了三年多啦所以我認為部長我希望在你卸任之前以你的專業以我們大家對你的理解"},{"start":16407.163,"end":16429.563,"text":"過去你在各項職務上面你的優良表現我相信你可以給社子島的開發做一個更精確的一個回覆跟判斷第一點現在就可以答應開發不是嗎現在就可以馬上進行不是嗎第二點現在在主腦在推研的還有什麼理由你的看法呢"},{"start":16430.333,"end":16446.112,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員的指教我非常的贊成社子島的民眾應該要有更好的一個生活所以這個案子我也非常重視所以我上任之後我自己親自我開了不下10次的專案會議就是要去釐清這個問題"},{"start":16448.175,"end":16464.814,"text":"我們非常希望臺北市政府其實有一個東西必須要確定也就是我那天跟蔣市長碰面的時候特別提到進到社子島的這個輕軌的系統臺北市必須要確定而且騎乘必須要出來"},{"start":16465.555,"end":16465.575,"text":"吳蔣英"},{"start":16494.783,"end":16519.757,"text":"秦桂計劃秦桂計劃要確定秦桂這是很好這我相信對設施到未來那在居住在使用上面確實這個會很大的幫助他是不要的他是不要的你有所不知的就是說臺北市現在光是北環東環南環光這三段啊因為這三年疫情那物價"},{"start":16521.838,"end":16525.824,"text":"工資大幅上漲關於這3條我們現在差了就440億"},{"start":16527.731,"end":16556.766,"text":"這是另外一個問題是我們市政府要來跟中央來請求補助的地方所以啊這個社址島的輕軌我用三個字啦台灣話講我們該預留這個軌道這個路線下來嘛但是不能以這個條件來框住社址島那時間有限我再跟你提一下大灣北段大灣北段那也是一個很離譜的事情"},{"start":16558.026,"end":16578.119,"text":"人民有免於恐懼的自由住在大灣北段這1895每天成王成孔為什麼就怕市府來分區使用不當分區使用不符合他們會開罰這開罰6萬元一次可以連續罰第二次也是再6萬第三次除了罰金還要斷水斷電"},{"start":16584.992,"end":16600.153,"text":"當北段絕大多數的居民窮一生之力難得買了這麼一戶房子要安家立業的結果要被這樣子所謂的使用分區不服而這個使用分區不服是建商導致的"},{"start":16600.794,"end":16612.862,"text":"如果使用分區不符要導正回來過去就應該這一筆貸金回饋金就應該由建商來繳我們政府應該要的是要去要這些建商這十幾家建商蓋的這1890戶結果現在這1890戶透過市府透過議會說我們願意自己繳也算了一個金額"},{"start":16623.749,"end":16649.686,"text":"一品算47,500送來內政部也是一拖拖三年不好意思霍主席因為難得有機會抱怨一下所以我跟部長講一下部長好不好這兩個案子我認為都刻不容緩迫不及待應該要趕快做一個明確的裁釋才對依你的專業我相信你可以做得到"},{"start":16650.467,"end":16651.45,"text":"謝謝王思江委員的質詢,也謝謝部長的回應,謝謝"},{"start":16658.103,"end":16683.514,"text":"登記發言委員除拜不在場之外：其餘都已經發言完畢了：詢答結束委員蔓玉珍、牛許廷、陳冠廷、林俊憲所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一周之內以書面答覆並且複製本會本日的議程處理完畢我們現在休息3月20日繼續開會大家辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":16689.701,"end":16691.702,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15733","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd3e43fff42b9abd61d2752fdacda41c863be8d109af184be42390a27cfa93bd325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:31:21+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:17:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13539,"委員發言時間":"08:31:21 - 12:17:00","影片長度":"03:45:39","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1722.6815937500003,"end":1725.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1725.4659687500002,"end":1728.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1729.2628437500002,"end":1730.2078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1730.9334687500002,"end":1735.0003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1737.8184687500002,"end":1766.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1767.2484687500003,"end":1775.6690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1775.87159375,"end":1776.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1776.7659687500002,"end":1781.5584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1781.8622187500002,"end":1783.2797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1783.3809687500002,"end":1786.9078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1787.0428437500002,"end":1788.6290937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1788.9665937500001,"end":1793.6409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1794.0797187500002,"end":1818.2784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1821.6197187500002,"end":1827.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1830.1247187500003,"end":1830.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1831.5084687500002,"end":1832.9090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1834.3940937500001,"end":1834.7315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1836.1322187500002,"end":1837.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1837.8534687500003,"end":1846.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1846.59471875,"end":1852.4672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1852.7034687500002,"end":1871.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1872.3628437500001,"end":1886.0484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1888.5797187500002,"end":1890.1659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1892.3597187500002,"end":1894.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1895.9034687500002,"end":1897.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1899.32909375,"end":1901.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1902.7884687500002,"end":1904.6615937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1906.1465937500002,"end":1907.7159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1909.16721875,"end":1911.0572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1912.3397187500002,"end":1914.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1916.6934687500002,"end":1919.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1921.1822187500002,"end":1925.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1926.3965937500002,"end":1928.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1928.6409687500002,"end":1930.6659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1932.1847187500002,"end":1934.1590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1935.8128437500002,"end":1937.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1941.11159375,"end":1953.1434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1953.2784687500002,"end":1953.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1960.92284375,"end":1976.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1976.95409375,"end":1982.7928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1983.2653437500003,"end":1987.3322187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1987.36596875,"end":1992.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1992.71534375,"end":2000.9334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2001.15284375,"end":2008.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2009.1853437500001,"end":2011.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2011.5815937500001,"end":2012.5097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2012.96534375,"end":2015.3109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2015.4797187500003,"end":2018.2472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2018.7703437500002,"end":2020.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2020.7109687500001,"end":2022.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2022.6347187500003,"end":2028.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2029.1822187500002,"end":2032.1859687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2032.4053437500002,"end":2035.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2035.2234687500002,"end":2036.4047187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2036.7759687500002,"end":2039.6615937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2039.9990937500002,"end":2043.0365937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2043.4584687500003,"end":2044.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2044.9434687500002,"end":2046.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2047.1878437500002,"end":2047.6603437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2047.9978437500001,"end":2052.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2052.2840937500005,"end":2056.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2057.2284687500005,"end":2066.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2067.4715937500005,"end":2070.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2080.4990937500006,"end":2083.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2084.75159375,"end":2091.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2091.8222187500005,"end":2095.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2096.29409375,"end":2098.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2098.48784375,"end":2103.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2103.43221875,"end":2112.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2112.2578437500006,"end":2129.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2129.57159375,"end":2135.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2136.32159375,"end":2151.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2151.4247187500005,"end":2155.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2156.75721875,"end":2159.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2159.4403437500005,"end":2185.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2186.57534375,"end":2220.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2220.83159375,"end":2239.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2239.4784687500005,"end":2241.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2241.3515937500006,"end":2277.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2277.7509687500005,"end":2280.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2280.83909375,"end":2282.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2282.77971875,"end":2331.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2332.93221875,"end":2351.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2352.32159375,"end":2358.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2358.54846875,"end":2381.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2381.86971875,"end":2389.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2390.0203437500004,"end":2403.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2404.11096875,"end":2428.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2429.00159375,"end":2471.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2471.5772187500006,"end":2479.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2479.8290937500005,"end":2488.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2488.84034375,"end":2493.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2494.1559687500003,"end":2512.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2513.2584687500002,"end":2578.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2579.3240937500004,"end":2604.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2604.65346875,"end":2651.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2652.6628437500003,"end":2656.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2657.47221875,"end":2693.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2694.6140937500004,"end":2765.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2766.2147187500004,"end":2769.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2770.63596875,"end":2786.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2786.8359687500006,"end":2790.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2790.64971875,"end":2796.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2797.11284375,"end":2806.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2807.3897187500006,"end":2835.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2835.67221875,"end":2844.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2844.5147187500006,"end":2866.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2868.39284375,"end":2881.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2882.31471875,"end":2910.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2911.2722187500003,"end":2914.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2915.40659375,"end":2918.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2919.1022187500002,"end":2947.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2947.60409375,"end":2959.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2961.0703437500006,"end":3010.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3010.63221875,"end":3011.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3011.7628437500007,"end":3015.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3016.25159375,"end":3016.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3017.5340937500005,"end":3026.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3027.4228437500005,"end":3041.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3042.03659375,"end":3069.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3070.0322187500005,"end":3073.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3073.3397187500004,"end":3077.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3077.6765937500004,"end":3084.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3085.18596875,"end":3098.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3098.5847187500003,"end":3113.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3113.4178437500004,"end":3114.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3115.2740937500002,"end":3135.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3135.9628437500005,"end":3136.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3137.66721875,"end":3172.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3173.40846875,"end":3178.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3179.5847187500003,"end":3194.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3199.63221875,"end":3201.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3203.4628437500005,"end":3205.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3209.04846875,"end":3212.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3213.13221875,"end":3214.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3214.2628437500007,"end":3217.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3217.95846875,"end":3220.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3221.94096875,"end":3225.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3226.3622187500005,"end":3227.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3228.6572187500005,"end":3230.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3231.3740937500006,"end":3233.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3234.36096875,"end":3236.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3236.70659375,"end":3238.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3239.6765937500004,"end":3241.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3242.61284375,"end":3244.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3244.9922187500006,"end":3247.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3257.19284375,"end":3259.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3261.27659375,"end":3262.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3273.03846875,"end":3279.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3279.43409375,"end":3288.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3289.2384687500007,"end":3289.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3290.5040937500007,"end":3294.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3295.3640937500004,"end":3316.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3317.89221875,"end":3318.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3318.6853437500004,"end":3318.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3318.8878437500007,"end":3385.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3386.03346875,"end":3405.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3405.03471875,"end":3436.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3436.60784375,"end":3441.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3436.72596875,"end":3437.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3442.8009687500007,"end":3477.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3477.46221875,"end":3477.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3478.2890937500006,"end":3478.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3478.30596875,"end":3478.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3478.96409375,"end":3547.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3547.0378437500003,"end":3589.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3589.7653437500003,"end":3589.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3589.8834687500002,"end":3589.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3589.9678437500006,"end":3629.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3630.8728437500004,"end":3630.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3630.8897187500006,"end":3672.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3672.97596875,"end":3692.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3692.9728437500007,"end":3709.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3709.0378437500003,"end":3709.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3709.0547187500006,"end":3709.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3709.25721875,"end":3719.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3719.73659375,"end":3742.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3742.1803437500002,"end":3742.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3742.7372187500005,"end":3742.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3742.9734687500004,"end":3765.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3765.0290937500004,"end":3765.8390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3765.8390937500008,"end":3765.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3765.8897187500006,"end":3777.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3777.0272187500004,"end":3777.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3778.7147187500004,"end":3778.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3778.74846875,"end":3784.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3795.7753437500005,"end":3798.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3799.2009687500004,"end":3799.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3799.2178437500006,"end":3800.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3799.25159375,"end":3800.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3801.3103437500004,"end":3801.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3802.06971875,"end":3809.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3802.1709687500006,"end":3802.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3802.6434687500005,"end":3802.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3806.64284375,"end":3807.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3808.39784375,"end":3808.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3808.5665937500007,"end":3809.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3809.8322187500007,"end":3809.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3809.9334687500004,"end":3810.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3810.03471875,"end":3810.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3810.9459687500002,"end":3811.4015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3811.6715937500003,"end":3814.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3814.96221875,"end":3818.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3819.0290937500004,"end":3821.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3822.3534687500005,"end":3822.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3823.70346875,"end":3824.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3825.15471875,"end":3828.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3829.00221875,"end":3838.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3839.0934687500003,"end":3843.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3843.54846875,"end":3874.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3875.40846875,"end":3892.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3888.9928437500002,"end":3889.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3889.0097187500005,"end":3889.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3893.07659375,"end":3896.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3896.8903437500003,"end":3919.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3919.5028437500005,"end":3924.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3924.0253437500005,"end":3925.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3926.21909375,"end":3952.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3952.5778437500003,"end":3966.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3952.5947187500005,"end":3952.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3966.1453437500004,"end":3966.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3966.7697187500007,"end":3966.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3966.97221875,"end":3972.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3972.5915937500004,"end":3989.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3989.02784375,"end":3989.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3989.7703437500004,"end":3989.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3989.98971875,"end":3990.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3990.0065937500003,"end":3990.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3990.2765937500008,"end":3997.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3997.4484687500008,"end":3998.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3998.96721875,"end":4037.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4037.4928437500002,"end":4037.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4038.45471875,"end":4038.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4039.7540937500007,"end":4074.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4074.97221875,"end":4085.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4086.12659375,"end":4089.6534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4089.7547187500004,"end":4098.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4098.81659375,"end":4107.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4107.49034375,"end":4124.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4126.7615937499995,"end":4127.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4128.01034375,"end":4168.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4168.37534375,"end":4173.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4173.99471875,"end":4237.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4207.356593750001,"end":4207.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4210.05659375,"end":4210.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4236.229718750001,"end":4252.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4252.024718750001,"end":4253.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4253.25659375,"end":4279.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4278.16409375,"end":4283.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4284.10409375,"end":4300.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4300.0340937500005,"end":4300.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4300.8778437500005,"end":4362.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4348.870343750001,"end":4348.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4362.06659375,"end":4362.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4362.11721875,"end":4362.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4362.319718750001,"end":4362.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4362.404093749999,"end":4362.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4362.53909375,"end":4363.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4363.028468750001,"end":4363.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4363.821593750001,"end":4363.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4367.6522187499995,"end":4373.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4378.33409375,"end":4385.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4386.95721875,"end":4387.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4387.311593750001,"end":4388.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4387.767218749999,"end":4388.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4388.3240937499995,"end":4391.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4393.42034375,"end":4394.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4394.12909375,"end":4394.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4394.2303437499995,"end":4394.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4395.25971875,"end":4395.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4397.419718749999,"end":4399.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4399.05659375,"end":4399.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4399.073468750001,"end":4399.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4399.3603437500005,"end":4416.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4399.394093749999,"end":4399.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4417.5009687500005,"end":4419.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4419.981593750001,"end":4441.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4441.9697187500005,"end":4442.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.07096875,"end":4442.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4442.08784375,"end":4442.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.138468749999,"end":4442.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.27346875,"end":4442.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4442.30721875,"end":4490.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4490.4853437500005,"end":4511.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4511.612843749999,"end":4520.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4520.97846875,"end":4531.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4531.08659375,"end":4531.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4531.42409375,"end":4600.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4601.16846875,"end":4604.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4604.54346875,"end":4609.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4609.97721875,"end":4613.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4613.858468750001,"end":4633.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4633.956593749999,"end":4657.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4657.9022187499995,"end":4663.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4663.75784375,"end":4672.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4673.140343749999,"end":4717.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4718.483468750001,"end":4727.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4727.427218750001,"end":4741.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4742.07471875,"end":4748.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4749.11159375,"end":4753.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4753.38096875,"end":4755.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4756.18221875,"end":4758.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4758.76409375,"end":4759.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4759.5740937499995,"end":4761.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4762.18971875,"end":4765.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4765.733468750001,"end":4766.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4766.86409375,"end":4769.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4770.34034375,"end":4783.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4783.772843750001,"end":4785.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4786.05096875,"end":4787.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4787.7215937500005,"end":4821.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4821.96096875,"end":4827.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4828.03596875,"end":4832.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4832.54159375,"end":4832.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4833.216593749999,"end":4833.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4833.233468750001,"end":4840.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4839.460343750001,"end":4841.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4841.7215937500005,"end":4841.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4841.87346875,"end":4842.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4842.784718750001,"end":4842.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4843.29096875,"end":4843.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4843.729718750001,"end":4843.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4843.74659375,"end":4845.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4845.029093749999,"end":4845.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4845.53534375,"end":4845.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4845.56909375,"end":4846.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4845.72096875,"end":4846.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4846.7840937500005,"end":4848.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4847.290343750001,"end":4855.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4855.37346875,"end":4857.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4857.76971875,"end":4858.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4859.288468750001,"end":4862.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4862.714093750001,"end":4866.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4867.388468749999,"end":4867.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4868.940968750001,"end":4874.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4874.475968750001,"end":4881.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4881.546593749999,"end":4883.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4883.520968750001,"end":4899.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4899.974093750001,"end":4935.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4935.52971875,"end":4935.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4936.27221875,"end":4944.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4944.94596875,"end":4949.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4949.55284375,"end":4957.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4957.60221875,"end":4961.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4961.77034375,"end":4964.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4961.888468749999,"end":4962.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4973.97096875,"end":4976.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4990.964093750001,"end":5001.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4998.085343750001,"end":4999.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5003.08034375,"end":5003.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5006.286593750001,"end":5008.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5008.51409375,"end":5012.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5013.036593750001,"end":5014.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5015.517218749999,"end":5020.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5021.32221875,"end":5026.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5027.0428437499995,"end":5029.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5029.92846875,"end":5035.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5036.189093749999,"end":5040.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5041.437218749999,"end":5043.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5044.23846875,"end":5059.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5061.0965937500005,"end":5061.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5061.923468749999,"end":5063.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5064.10034375,"end":5068.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5069.31471875,"end":5091.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5089.61534375,"end":5100.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5100.90471875,"end":5105.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5105.849093750001,"end":5106.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5106.8447187500005,"end":5108.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5108.17784375,"end":5112.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5112.02534375,"end":5113.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5112.599093750001,"end":5113.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5114.100968750001,"end":5116.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5116.22721875,"end":5117.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5117.3240937499995,"end":5126.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5120.378468750001,"end":5120.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5126.841593749999,"end":5129.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5130.554093750001,"end":5131.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5132.07284375,"end":5135.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5136.038468750001,"end":5140.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5141.151593750001,"end":5143.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5144.45909375,"end":5145.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5145.640343749999,"end":5147.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5147.68221875,"end":5148.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5148.087218750001,"end":5152.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5153.149718750001,"end":5153.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5153.16659375,"end":5153.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5153.31846875,"end":5154.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5153.36909375,"end":5153.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5153.419718749999,"end":5153.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5153.4872187500005,"end":5153.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5154.685343749999,"end":5171.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5171.560343749999,"end":5193.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5185.769093750001,"end":5185.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5185.9715937500005,"end":5186.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5193.514718750001,"end":5193.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5194.00409375,"end":5221.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5207.26784375,"end":5207.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5207.31846875,"end":5207.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5207.436593750001,"end":5207.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5207.470343749999,"end":5207.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5207.4872187500005,"end":5207.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5218.52346875,"end":5218.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5219.519093750001,"end":5220.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5221.13909375,"end":5228.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5228.057843750001,"end":5229.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5228.68221875,"end":5231.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5229.67784375,"end":5232.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5231.97284375,"end":5232.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5232.76596875,"end":5241.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5241.49034375,"end":5244.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5244.71346875,"end":5245.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5245.32096875,"end":5247.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5247.227843750001,"end":5249.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5250.045968750001,"end":5252.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5252.712218750001,"end":5256.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5257.4540937500005,"end":5273.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5276.45534375,"end":5293.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5293.19534375,"end":5293.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5293.93784375,"end":5293.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5293.9715937500005,"end":5298.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5298.510968750001,"end":5323.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5323.89096875,"end":5331.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5331.82221875,"end":5334.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5335.264718750001,"end":5336.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5336.749718749999,"end":5346.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5346.638468749999,"end":5347.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5348.03909375,"end":5349.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5350.14846875,"end":5357.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5357.45534375,"end":5357.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5358.43409375,"end":5358.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5358.450968749999,"end":5358.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5359.51409375,"end":5361.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5361.48846875,"end":5381.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5362.97346875,"end":5364.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5373.94221875,"end":5374.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5381.97471875,"end":5419.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5419.65659375,"end":5420.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5421.00659375,"end":5425.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5426.237843750001,"end":5427.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5427.368468750001,"end":5427.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5427.38534375,"end":5427.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5427.7059687500005,"end":5428.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5428.954718749999,"end":5429.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5429.73096875,"end":5429.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5429.764718750001,"end":5475.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5471.44596875,"end":5471.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5472.34034375,"end":5474.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5475.411593750001,"end":5490.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5486.295968750001,"end":5486.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5486.41409375,"end":5486.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5486.430968750001,"end":5486.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5486.44784375,"end":5486.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5490.16034375,"end":5499.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5500.04909375,"end":5524.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5525.192843750001,"end":5526.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5526.86346875,"end":5527.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5527.97721875,"end":5537.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5534.74409375,"end":5537.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5537.20784375,"end":5537.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5537.427218750001,"end":5537.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5537.69721875,"end":5562.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5562.030968749999,"end":5573.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5573.87721875,"end":5574.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5574.85596875,"end":5575.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5577.52221875,"end":5579.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5580.407843749999,"end":5580.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5581.0322187500005,"end":5582.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5582.44971875,"end":5584.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5584.60971875,"end":5588.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5588.4403437500005,"end":5596.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5596.79346875,"end":5599.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5599.628468750001,"end":5608.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5610.090968750001,"end":5613.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5617.04346875,"end":5625.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5624.36721875,"end":5625.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5627.7928437499995,"end":5628.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5629.19346875,"end":5629.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5630.003468750001,"end":5630.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5630.03721875,"end":5630.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5632.8553437499995,"end":5633.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5633.64846875,"end":5634.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5635.403468750001,"end":5637.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5638.66034375,"end":5640.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5640.82034375,"end":5643.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5644.060343749999,"end":5648.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5648.58284375,"end":5655.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5656.19346875,"end":5659.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5660.007218750001,"end":5660.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5660.935343749999,"end":5664.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5664.24284375,"end":5665.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5666.58846875,"end":5667.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5667.39846875,"end":5670.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5670.8915937500005,"end":5674.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5675.86971875,"end":5679.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5679.6834687499995,"end":5686.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5687.49659375,"end":5691.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5691.86721875,"end":5693.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5694.651593750001,"end":5695.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5695.74846875,"end":5696.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5697.95909375,"end":5703.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5703.57846875,"end":5707.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5708.50596875,"end":5714.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5715.62721875,"end":5716.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5717.17971875,"end":5717.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5718.0740937499995,"end":5719.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5721.280343750001,"end":5724.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5724.48659375,"end":5725.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5725.85346875,"end":5727.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5727.456593750001,"end":5728.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5728.97534375,"end":5730.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5731.10159375,"end":5731.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5732.26596875,"end":5733.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5733.649718750001,"end":5735.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5735.7928437499995,"end":5736.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5737.00784375,"end":5737.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5738.003468750001,"end":5738.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5739.134093750001,"end":5741.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5741.49659375,"end":5742.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5742.57659375,"end":5745.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5745.85034375,"end":5746.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5746.87971875,"end":5747.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5750.575343750001,"end":5751.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5751.638468749999,"end":5751.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5752.077218750001,"end":5753.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5753.96721875,"end":5800.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5797.6903437500005,"end":5799.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5800.03596875,"end":5804.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5800.18784375,"end":5800.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5805.638468749999,"end":5810.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5810.78534375,"end":5812.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5812.1522187499995,"end":5812.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5812.79346875,"end":5812.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5812.962218750001,"end":5821.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5816.624093750001,"end":5817.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5820.35346875,"end":5820.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5821.78784375,"end":5830.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5824.538468750001,"end":5825.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5825.02784375,"end":5825.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5826.76596875,"end":5827.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5831.153468750001,"end":5831.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5831.50784375,"end":5831.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5833.532843750001,"end":5833.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5833.5497187500005,"end":5834.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5835.99659375,"end":5837.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5838.39284375,"end":5843.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5843.53971875,"end":5844.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5844.85596875,"end":5851.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.75034375,"end":5845.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5845.83471875,"end":5845.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5845.88534375,"end":5846.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5851.42034375,"end":5851.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5851.8759687500005,"end":5856.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5854.997843749999,"end":5855.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5858.6259687500005,"end":5863.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5863.6884687500005,"end":5866.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5867.45159375,"end":5868.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5869.341593749999,"end":5869.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5870.2528437500005,"end":5873.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5874.52221875,"end":5877.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5878.60596875,"end":5880.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5881.390343749999,"end":5882.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5883.16221875,"end":5892.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5892.983468750001,"end":5897.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5897.624093750001,"end":5899.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5899.868468750001,"end":5901.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5902.686593750001,"end":5905.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5906.044718749999,"end":5907.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5907.310343749999,"end":5908.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5908.10346875,"end":5909.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5911.5965937500005,"end":5914.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5912.50784375,"end":5916.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5917.80659375,"end":5919.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5919.44346875,"end":5920.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5922.39659375,"end":5922.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5923.020968750001,"end":5923.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5924.64096875,"end":5926.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5926.716593749999,"end":5930.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5931.137843750001,"end":5933.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5934.39471875,"end":5937.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5938.46159375,"end":5942.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5942.83221875,"end":5944.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5944.857218749999,"end":5946.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5947.10159375,"end":5947.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5948.569718750001,"end":5949.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5950.864718750001,"end":5952.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5952.82221875,"end":5953.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5954.425343750001,"end":5959.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5960.68596875,"end":5966.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5967.132218750001,"end":5970.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5971.030343750001,"end":5976.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5977.442843750001,"end":5977.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5978.050343750001,"end":5981.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5981.560343749999,"end":5983.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5984.294093750001,"end":5985.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5986.251593750001,"end":5990.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5990.74034375,"end":5991.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5991.90471875,"end":5994.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5996.106593750001,"end":5998.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5999.65034375,"end":5999.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5999.97096875,"end":6000.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6001.810343749999,"end":6023.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6023.5115937499995,"end":6024.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6024.034718750001,"end":6026.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6027.409718750001,"end":6029.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6030.3290937500005,"end":6032.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6033.29909375,"end":6034.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6035.239718750001,"end":6035.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6036.269093750001,"end":6041.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6041.97284375,"end":6042.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6042.61409375,"end":6044.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6045.685343749999,"end":6046.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6046.42784375,"end":6047.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6047.8622187500005,"end":6049.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6050.106593750001,"end":6051.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6051.91221875,"end":6053.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6055.405343750001,"end":6056.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6055.84409375,"end":6056.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6056.9072187500005,"end":6057.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6057.02534375,"end":6062.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6057.48096875,"end":6060.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6060.366593750001,"end":6060.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6062.77971875,"end":6063.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6064.264718750001,"end":6064.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6065.36159375,"end":6066.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6067.673468750001,"end":6070.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6070.575968749999,"end":6073.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6074.187218749999,"end":6075.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6076.5497187500005,"end":6077.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6078.169718749999,"end":6078.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6079.14846875,"end":6081.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6082.92846875,"end":6085.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6086.08409375,"end":6087.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6089.762843750001,"end":6090.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6090.80909375,"end":6092.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6094.015343749999,"end":6095.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6095.50034375,"end":6096.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6097.305968750001,"end":6099.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6099.702218750001,"end":6099.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6100.69784375,"end":6117.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6116.290343750001,"end":6117.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6117.91034375,"end":6118.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6118.028468750001,"end":6118.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6118.534718750001,"end":6118.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6118.872218750001,"end":6118.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6118.905968749999,"end":6123.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6124.170968750001,"end":6125.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6125.993468750001,"end":6129.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6129.419093750001,"end":6131.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6131.86596875,"end":6135.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6132.01784375,"end":6132.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6135.49409375,"end":6135.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6135.510968750001,"end":6144.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6135.561593750001,"end":6136.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6144.977843750001,"end":6145.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6145.5009687500005,"end":6145.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6146.294093750001,"end":6150.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6151.00221875,"end":6161.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6161.02596875,"end":6161.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6162.224093750001,"end":6163.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6163.47284375,"end":6171.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6172.163468750001,"end":6174.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6175.33596875,"end":6182.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6179.16659375,"end":6181.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6182.91284375,"end":6184.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6185.30909375,"end":6192.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6192.126593750001,"end":6192.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6192.700343750001,"end":6193.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6193.392218750001,"end":6193.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6193.4090937500005,"end":6193.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6193.442843750001,"end":6193.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6194.26971875,"end":6195.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6194.30346875,"end":6195.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6195.67034375,"end":6204.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6203.82096875,"end":6208.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6209.11971875,"end":6211.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6212.07284375,"end":6221.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6214.60409375,"end":6214.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6214.637843750001,"end":6214.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6221.92784375,"end":6229.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6227.3447187500005,"end":6231.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6231.52971875,"end":6234.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6248.8603437500005,"end":6249.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6250.5478437500005,"end":6253.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6252.218468749999,"end":6254.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6258.29346875,"end":6259.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6261.0947187500005,"end":6265.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6265.98846875,"end":6268.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6268.823468750001,"end":6280.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6280.41659375,"end":6281.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6282.20534375,"end":6290.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6290.82846875,"end":6300.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6300.6834687499995,"end":6305.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6305.897843750001,"end":6307.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6307.720343750001,"end":6310.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6310.33596875,"end":6311.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6311.804093750001,"end":6317.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6316.79909375,"end":6318.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6318.419093750001,"end":6318.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6318.4697187500005,"end":6318.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6318.503468750001,"end":6319.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6319.1278437500005,"end":6319.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6319.499093750001,"end":6322.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6322.722218750001,"end":6326.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6327.312218749999,"end":6327.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6328.22346875,"end":6329.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6330.40034375,"end":6332.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6333.1678437499995,"end":6337.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6337.251593750001,"end":6337.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6337.487843750001,"end":6339.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6337.50471875,"end":6337.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6339.512843750001,"end":6341.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6341.622218750001,"end":6343.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6344.237843750001,"end":6344.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6345.48659375,"end":6347.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6347.78159375,"end":6348.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6348.91221875,"end":6350.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6350.144093750001,"end":6351.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6351.831593750001,"end":6353.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6353.704718750001,"end":6358.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6359.189093750001,"end":6360.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6361.09596875,"end":6379.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6379.8778437500005,"end":6381.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6382.13909375,"end":6383.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6384.33284375,"end":6388.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6388.686593750001,"end":6396.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6396.5165937500005,"end":6397.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6399.368468750001,"end":6402.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6402.91221875,"end":6403.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6403.84034375,"end":6404.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6405.325343750001,"end":6406.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6407.40096875,"end":6407.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6407.97471875,"end":6409.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6410.235968750001,"end":6481.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6481.65096875,"end":6482.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6482.950343750001,"end":6483.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6483.96284375,"end":6485.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6485.616593750001,"end":6489.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6489.48096875,"end":6489.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6490.89846875,"end":6492.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6493.22721875,"end":6494.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6494.91471875,"end":6497.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6497.59784375,"end":6499.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6499.859093749999,"end":6519.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6520.24409375,"end":6527.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6527.567843750001,"end":6529.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6529.79534375,"end":6532.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6532.66409375,"end":6534.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6534.53721875,"end":6535.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6535.819718750001,"end":6540.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6540.831593750001,"end":6546.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6547.716593749999,"end":6549.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6549.420968750001,"end":6552.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6552.779093749999,"end":6594.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6594.966593749999,"end":6595.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6596.4853437500005,"end":6596.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6596.50221875,"end":6657.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6654.48471875,"end":6655.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6655.497218750001,"end":6667.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6668.102843750001,"end":6668.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6668.64284375,"end":6671.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6671.342843750001,"end":6672.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6672.70971875,"end":6677.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6677.78909375,"end":6678.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6678.86909375,"end":6679.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6679.780343750001,"end":6680.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6681.0965937500005,"end":6681.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6682.41284375,"end":6684.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6684.792218750001,"end":6685.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6686.243468750001,"end":6687.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6687.5428437499995,"end":6688.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6688.89284375,"end":6690.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6690.10784375,"end":6690.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6690.34409375,"end":6691.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6691.727843750001,"end":6691.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6691.87971875,"end":6692.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6692.03159375,"end":6692.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6692.149718750001,"end":6693.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6692.21721875,"end":6693.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6693.550343750001,"end":6700.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6700.84034375,"end":6706.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6704.755343750001,"end":6706.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6706.864718750001,"end":6711.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6711.606593750001,"end":6712.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6713.20971875,"end":6723.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6714.05346875,"end":6715.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6723.67221875,"end":6729.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6730.017218750001,"end":6733.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6733.965968750001,"end":6738.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6738.72471875,"end":6744.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6742.0322187500005,"end":6743.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6744.698468750001,"end":6754.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6754.874093750001,"end":6760.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6760.5947187500005,"end":6760.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6761.472218750001,"end":6764.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6764.6278437500005,"end":6765.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6764.982218749999,"end":6770.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6770.7197187500005,"end":6782.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6771.040343750001,"end":6771.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6783.089093750001,"end":6783.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6783.10596875,"end":6786.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6786.413468750001,"end":6792.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6792.184718750001,"end":6795.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6796.015343749999,"end":6796.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6797.061593750001,"end":6805.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6805.78596875,"end":6807.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6807.3553437499995,"end":6809.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6810.15659375,"end":6814.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6812.95784375,"end":6813.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6813.599093750001,"end":6814.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6814.442843750001,"end":6814.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6814.965968750001,"end":6815.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6815.522843750001,"end":6815.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6815.53971875,"end":6822.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6817.19346875,"end":6818.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6818.96534375,"end":6822.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6822.593468749999,"end":6822.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6822.62721875,"end":6822.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6822.644093750001,"end":6822.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6822.67784375,"end":6822.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6822.9647187499995,"end":6822.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6822.99846875,"end":6823.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6823.0322187500005,"end":6823.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6823.04909375,"end":6823.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6823.13346875,"end":6823.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6824.17971875,"end":6840.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6841.493468750001,"end":6847.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6847.80471875,"end":6848.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6855.735968750001,"end":6865.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6866.13096875,"end":6874.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6875.39534375,"end":6890.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6890.97096875,"end":6893.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6894.81846875,"end":6915.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6915.49034375,"end":6918.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6920.78909375,"end":6929.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6928.12971875,"end":6933.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6933.9178437499995,"end":6948.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6948.6834687499995,"end":6952.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6953.50971875,"end":6964.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6962.892218750001,"end":6963.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6964.22534375,"end":6965.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6964.69784375,"end":7032.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7000.776593750001,"end":7001.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7006.632218750001,"end":7007.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7032.95721875,"end":7058.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7059.01221875,"end":7060.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7061.77971875,"end":7062.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7064.54721875,"end":7084.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7084.69596875,"end":7102.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7102.904093749999,"end":7103.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7103.849093750001,"end":7115.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7115.189093750001,"end":7135.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7135.388468749999,"end":7138.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7138.27409375,"end":7141.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7141.61534375,"end":7149.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7150.170968750001,"end":7164.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7165.5947187500005,"end":7169.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7170.11721875,"end":7186.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7187.245343750001,"end":7188.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7189.675343750001,"end":7199.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7199.985968750001,"end":7200.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7201.589093750001,"end":7208.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7208.87909375,"end":7228.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7223.3915937500005,"end":7224.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7227.407843750001,"end":7227.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7227.981593750001,"end":7240.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7229.58471875,"end":7230.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7230.58034375,"end":7231.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7231.74471875,"end":7231.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7235.35596875,"end":7235.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7240.23284375,"end":7240.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7240.452218750001,"end":7245.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7240.46909375,"end":7240.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7246.08846875,"end":7262.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7262.372843749999,"end":7262.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7262.40659375,"end":7290.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7262.54159375,"end":7264.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7282.33596875,"end":7282.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7282.487843750001,"end":7282.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7291.060343749999,"end":7292.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7292.714093750001,"end":7304.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7293.20346875,"end":7293.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7304.96534375,"end":7316.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7317.317843750001,"end":7318.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7320.507218750001,"end":7326.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7327.020968750001,"end":7328.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7329.2822187500005,"end":7330.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7331.17221875,"end":7332.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7333.028468750001,"end":7343.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7344.38534375,"end":7345.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7345.61721875,"end":7357.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7357.311593750001,"end":7357.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7358.35784375,"end":7361.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7362.036593750001,"end":7362.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7363.52159375,"end":7369.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7365.7997187500005,"end":7366.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7369.64721875,"end":7372.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7370.64284375,"end":7378.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7376.73471875,"end":7376.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7377.25784375,"end":7379.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7379.282843750001,"end":7379.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7379.333468750001,"end":7379.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7379.36721875,"end":7382.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7381.64534375,"end":7385.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7385.475968750001,"end":7385.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7385.91471875,"end":7387.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7387.534718750001,"end":7387.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7388.63159375,"end":7392.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7390.960343750001,"end":7395.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7396.157843750001,"end":7403.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7403.81909375,"end":7405.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7405.5740937499995,"end":7406.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7406.53596875,"end":7407.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7408.1728437500005,"end":7413.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7413.505343750001,"end":7420.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7420.356593750001,"end":7440.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7420.60971875,"end":7420.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7420.626593750001,"end":7423.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7424.17034375,"end":7424.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7430.17784375,"end":7430.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7431.3084687499995,"end":7431.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7431.3759687500005,"end":7435.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7435.66221875,"end":7435.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7440.134093750001,"end":7443.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7443.66096875,"end":7473.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7444.200968749999,"end":7444.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7451.2040937500005,"end":7451.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7451.22096875,"end":7453.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7453.04346875,"end":7453.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7454.03909375,"end":7454.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7454.96721875,"end":7455.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7457.245343750001,"end":7457.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7460.21534375,"end":7461.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7461.02534375,"end":7462.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7463.69159375,"end":7465.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7469.63159375,"end":7469.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7471.50471875,"end":7476.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7475.807843750001,"end":7476.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7476.786593750001,"end":7476.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7476.82034375,"end":7477.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7477.05659375,"end":7477.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7477.47846875,"end":7478.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7478.474093750001,"end":7480.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7478.50784375,"end":7478.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7478.575343750001,"end":7479.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7481.292218750001,"end":7482.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7482.25409375,"end":7485.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7486.55721875,"end":7490.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7492.311593750001,"end":7513.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7513.5740937499995,"end":7518.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7520.96534375,"end":7521.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7521.876593750001,"end":7524.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7528.08659375,"end":7528.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7533.975968750001,"end":7535.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7537.73909375,"end":7543.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7543.628468750001,"end":7555.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7552.403468750001,"end":7559.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7558.529093749999,"end":7565.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7565.41409375,"end":7566.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7566.10596875,"end":7567.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7567.540343750001,"end":7569.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7570.71284375,"end":7573.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7575.15096875,"end":7581.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7581.85034375,"end":7584.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7585.545968750001,"end":7586.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7586.82846875,"end":7590.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7590.91221875,"end":7601.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7602.57284375,"end":7607.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7618.671593750001,"end":7622.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7622.434718750001,"end":7623.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7632.4247187500005,"end":7639.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7639.680968750001,"end":7642.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7642.41471875,"end":7647.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7647.747218750001,"end":7653.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7653.501593750001,"end":7660.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7660.167218750001,"end":7666.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7666.7147187499995,"end":7672.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7672.857218749999,"end":7677.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7678.56096875,"end":7683.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7683.67409375,"end":7687.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7687.23471875,"end":7691.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7691.2509687500005,"end":7692.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7692.837218750001,"end":7738.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7738.93971875,"end":7742.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7743.58034375,"end":7783.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7783.75971875,"end":7787.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7787.53971875,"end":7788.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7789.24409375,"end":7793.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7793.88471875,"end":7796.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7796.7197187500005,"end":7826.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7826.807843750001,"end":7830.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7830.4022187499995,"end":7835.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7835.92034375,"end":7851.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7851.42846875,"end":7853.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7853.942843750001,"end":7868.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7868.3709687499995,"end":7871.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7871.948468750001,"end":7877.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7877.989718750001,"end":7880.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7880.9090937500005,"end":7883.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7883.946593750001,"end":7890.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7890.3759687500005,"end":7893.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7894.1053437499995,"end":7916.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7917.173468750001,"end":7921.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7922.573468750001,"end":7923.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7924.64909375,"end":7984.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7984.65659375,"end":7999.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7999.9959687499995,"end":8006.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8006.54346875,"end":8015.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8015.30159375,"end":8018.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8018.794718750001,"end":8021.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8022.11909375,"end":8026.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8026.08471875,"end":8028.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8029.08846875,"end":8040.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8041.542218750001,"end":8041.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8042.55471875,"end":8046.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8047.3134687500005,"end":8051.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8052.274718750001,"end":8059.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8060.22284375,"end":8063.091593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8060.27346875,"end":8061.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8063.22659375,"end":8064.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8064.795968750001,"end":8071.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8071.7147187499995,"end":8076.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8076.38909375,"end":8079.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8080.13534375,"end":8082.075968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8082.227843750001,"end":8084.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8084.843468750001,"end":8100.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8100.94221875,"end":8114.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8101.83659375,"end":8102.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8114.661593750001,"end":8117.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8117.12534375,"end":8119.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8119.3865937499995,"end":8121.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8121.411593750001,"end":8125.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8125.5965937500005,"end":8127.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8128.00971875,"end":8133.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8133.325343750001,"end":8135.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8135.805968750001,"end":8168.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8157.557843750001,"end":8157.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8157.642218750001,"end":8157.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8157.72659375,"end":8157.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8168.64471875,"end":8174.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8174.58471875,"end":8178.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8179.073468750001,"end":8181.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8181.739718750001,"end":8191.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8192.15159375,"end":8193.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8193.34971875,"end":8193.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8194.24409375,"end":8200.352843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8214.899093750002,"end":8217.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8216.468468750001,"end":8216.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8216.485343750002,"end":8216.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8216.50221875,"end":8216.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8216.907218750002,"end":8216.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8216.92409375,"end":8217.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8217.109718750002,"end":8217.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8218.78034375,"end":8219.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8219.15159375,"end":8219.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8222.15534375,"end":8223.134093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8223.134093749999,"end":8223.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8223.31971875,"end":8223.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8224.332218750002,"end":8249.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8250.45471875,"end":8250.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8251.180343750002,"end":8284.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8251.34909375,"end":8251.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8284.356593750003,"end":8288.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8287.815968750001,"end":8291.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8292.524093750002,"end":8293.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8292.54096875,"end":8292.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8292.55784375,"end":8293.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8295.207218750002,"end":8325.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8325.953468750002,"end":8326.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8326.594718750002,"end":8346.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8346.65909375,"end":8362.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8361.239093750002,"end":8397.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8397.992843750002,"end":8405.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8406.07596875,"end":8416.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8416.032218750002,"end":8452.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8453.02221875,"end":8462.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8462.28659375,"end":8462.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8463.82221875,"end":8463.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8463.97409375,"end":8509.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8506.54971875,"end":8509.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8511.13971875,"end":8555.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8556.449093750001,"end":8556.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8556.465968750003,"end":8573.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8573.93159375,"end":8577.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8577.03659375,"end":8607.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8607.47909375,"end":8627.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8607.495968750001,"end":8608.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8627.965343750002,"end":8628.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8628.30284375,"end":8629.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8629.83846875,"end":8633.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8634.41159375,"end":8634.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8634.85034375,"end":8639.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8639.625968750002,"end":8642.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8642.74784375,"end":8644.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8645.71784375,"end":8648.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8648.434718750003,"end":8686.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8668.718468750001,"end":8669.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8688.192218750002,"end":8693.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8693.47409375,"end":8709.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8705.961593750002,"end":8736.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8715.79971875,"end":8718.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8720.89596875,"end":8721.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8736.84284375,"end":8756.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8737.450343750003,"end":8738.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8756.316593750002,"end":8759.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8758.44284375,"end":8764.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8761.29471875,"end":8763.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8763.235343750002,"end":8763.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8764.551593750002,"end":8766.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8766.120968750001,"end":8770.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8769.293468750002,"end":8777.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8777.309093750002,"end":8780.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8783.316593750002,"end":8789.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8790.657218750002,"end":8792.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8793.84659375,"end":8797.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8798.94284375,"end":8800.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8801.74409375,"end":8811.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8811.97034375,"end":8812.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8812.172843750002,"end":8814.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8819.074718750002,"end":8820.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8820.964718750001,"end":8821.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8821.234718750002,"end":8824.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8825.90909375,"end":8828.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8828.406593750002,"end":8829.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8834.009093750003,"end":8835.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8835.730343750001,"end":8838.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8838.44721875,"end":8838.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8838.902843750002,"end":8841.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8842.429718750001,"end":8854.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8844.25221875,"end":8845.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8845.24784375,"end":8845.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8845.36596875,"end":8845.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8845.399718750003,"end":8845.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8848.656593750002,"end":8848.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8848.67346875,"end":8849.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8855.27159375,"end":8857.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8858.460968750001,"end":8860.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8860.97534375,"end":8862.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8863.08471875,"end":8863.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8864.097218750001,"end":8864.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8865.07596875,"end":8865.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8865.582218750002,"end":8869.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8865.953468750002,"end":8866.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8869.73346875,"end":8873.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8874.762218750002,"end":8878.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8878.99784375,"end":8880.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8881.27596875,"end":8881.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8881.292843750001,"end":8884.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8881.512218750002,"end":8882.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8883.824093750001,"end":8884.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8885.49471875,"end":8888.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8889.34221875,"end":8890.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8891.215343750002,"end":8892.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8893.274093750002,"end":8897.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8897.492843750002,"end":8900.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8900.969093750002,"end":8903.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8903.500343750002,"end":8905.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8906.11596875,"end":8907.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8908.10721875,"end":8911.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8912.44409375,"end":8913.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8913.96284375,"end":8922.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8916.409718750001,"end":8916.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8919.210968750001,"end":8919.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8919.227843750003,"end":8920.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8920.054718750001,"end":8920.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8923.56471875,"end":8925.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8927.61471875,"end":8928.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8935.309718750003,"end":8939.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8940.895343750002,"end":8947.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8948.52284375,"end":8949.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8950.480343750001,"end":8953.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8954.04096875,"end":8954.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8955.644093750001,"end":8958.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8958.985343750002,"end":8962.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8962.52909375,"end":8962.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8962.562843750002,"end":8963.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8963.06909375,"end":8963.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8963.524718750003,"end":8965.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8965.785968750002,"end":8966.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8966.309093750002,"end":8966.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8966.34284375,"end":8966.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8966.477843750003,"end":8966.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8966.832218750002,"end":8975.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8966.899718750003,"end":8967.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8971.65846875,"end":8973.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8975.28659375,"end":8978.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8977.969718750002,"end":8978.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8978.45909375,"end":8979.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8980.500968750002,"end":8983.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8984.247218750003,"end":8987.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8987.48721875,"end":8989.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8990.406593750002,"end":8991.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8991.95909375,"end":8992.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8993.460968750001,"end":8996.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8996.532218750002,"end":8997.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8999.316593750002,"end":9000.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9001.51034375,"end":9002.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9007.500968750002,"end":9008.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9008.15909375,"end":9008.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9008.226593750001,"end":9008.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9009.32346875,"end":9010.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9011.63534375,"end":9012.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9012.816593750002,"end":9012.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9012.867218750001,"end":9013.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9016.259093750003,"end":9019.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9020.055968750003,"end":9022.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9020.106593750003,"end":9020.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9022.55346875,"end":9027.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9027.750968750002,"end":9028.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9028.56096875,"end":9029.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9030.636593750001,"end":9033.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9032.88096875,"end":9036.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9033.640343750001,"end":9034.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9035.817218750002,"end":9045.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9042.972218750001,"end":9048.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9052.30409375,"end":9053.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9053.907218750002,"end":9054.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9055.797218750002,"end":9063.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9060.117218750001,"end":9060.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9061.19721875,"end":9062.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9063.120968750001,"end":9065.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9065.972843750002,"end":9066.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9066.05721875,"end":9066.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9067.238468750002,"end":9068.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9068.976593750001,"end":9071.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9072.199718750002,"end":9073.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9074.39346875,"end":9075.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9075.27096875,"end":9076.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9077.44784375,"end":9078.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9079.55721875,"end":9081.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9082.61159375,"end":9098.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9099.33471875,"end":9099.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9099.351593750001,"end":9099.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9099.402218750001,"end":9100.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9100.02659375,"end":9100.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9100.313468750002,"end":9100.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9100.95471875,"end":9101.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9101.039093750001,"end":9106.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9108.19409375,"end":9111.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9111.50159375,"end":9113.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9113.67846875,"end":9114.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9114.74159375,"end":9116.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9116.766593750002,"end":9140.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9138.99096875,"end":9141.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9142.973468750002,"end":9143.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9144.222218750001,"end":9145.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9146.280968750001,"end":9147.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9147.69846875,"end":9147.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9147.715343750002,"end":9148.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9147.934718750003,"end":9149.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9150.60096875,"end":9153.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9150.75284375,"end":9151.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9153.85784375,"end":9166.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9166.379093750002,"end":9169.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9170.226593750001,"end":9170.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9171.171593750001,"end":9177.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9176.21721875,"end":9178.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9178.309718750003,"end":9182.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9181.11096875,"end":9183.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9183.55784375,"end":9195.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9194.492843750002,"end":9197.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9201.141593750002,"end":9204.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9204.837218750003,"end":9206.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9206.64284375,"end":9208.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9209.32596875,"end":9211.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9212.38034375,"end":9214.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9214.13534375,"end":9215.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9215.72159375,"end":9227.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9217.155968750001,"end":9217.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9225.74534375,"end":9228.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9230.031593750002,"end":9233.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9232.05659375,"end":9234.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9234.73971875,"end":9235.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9236.258468750002,"end":9243.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9244.476593750001,"end":9246.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9247.88534375,"end":9248.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9249.809093750002,"end":9251.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9252.340343750002,"end":9253.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9258.36471875,"end":9259.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9260.777843750002,"end":9261.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9261.773468750001,"end":9265.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9266.22846875,"end":9267.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9268.118468750003,"end":9269.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9271.155968750001,"end":9272.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9277.602218750002,"end":9278.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9279.62721875,"end":9281.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9281.88846875,"end":9284.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9285.820343750001,"end":9287.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9288.520343750002,"end":9289.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9290.055968750003,"end":9290.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9291.203468750002,"end":9293.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9294.156593750002,"end":9294.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9295.01721875,"end":9298.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9299.472218750001,"end":9300.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9300.906593750002,"end":9301.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9301.46346875,"end":9302.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9302.745968750001,"end":9312.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9312.53346875,"end":9323.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9323.384093750003,"end":9326.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9326.421593750001,"end":9327.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9327.383468750002,"end":9331.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9330.015968750002,"end":9334.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9334.72409375,"end":9336.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9337.22159375,"end":9338.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9338.80784375,"end":9343.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9343.39784375,"end":9343.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9343.836593750002,"end":9347.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9347.042843750001,"end":9347.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9347.70096875,"end":9353.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9353.87721875,"end":9354.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9354.56909375,"end":9356.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9354.61971875,"end":9356.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9358.58534375,"end":9359.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9360.171593750001,"end":9360.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9361.403468750003,"end":9363.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9364.74471875,"end":9366.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9366.516593750002,"end":9367.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9366.550343750001,"end":9367.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9367.410968750002,"end":9372.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9372.844718750002,"end":9378.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9377.265968750002,"end":9377.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9378.632843750001,"end":9381.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9382.159718750001,"end":9383.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9384.707843750002,"end":9386.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9387.45846875,"end":9387.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9388.36971875,"end":9389.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9389.68596875,"end":9391.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9392.132843750001,"end":9394.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9395.37284375,"end":9398.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9395.507843750001,"end":9395.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9397.887218750002,"end":9397.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9398.64659375,"end":9399.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9399.422843750002,"end":9406.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9409.328468750002,"end":9410.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9411.47159375,"end":9417.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9417.47909375,"end":9417.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9417.614093750002,"end":9419.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9417.715343750002,"end":9418.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9418.390343750001,"end":9418.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9418.64346875,"end":9418.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9420.53346875,"end":9421.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9481.418468750002,"end":9485.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9486.312218750001,"end":9492.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9492.08346875,"end":9492.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9494.243468750003,"end":9494.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9547.450343750003,"end":9547.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9547.973468750002,"end":9549.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9549.964718750001,"end":9550.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9551.972843750002,"end":9552.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9579.968468750001,"end":9580.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9580.52534375,"end":9581.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9581.554718750001,"end":9581.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9582.21284375,"end":9592.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9591.66284375,"end":9591.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9607.339718750001,"end":9607.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9656.327843750001,"end":9656.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9656.51346875,"end":9656.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9659.58471875,"end":9661.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9829.97159375,"end":9829.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9830.089718750001,"end":9830.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9831.86159375,"end":9843.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9836.468468750001,"end":9837.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9843.04971875,"end":9843.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9843.84284375,"end":9844.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9881.575343750003,"end":9883.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10034.46284375,"end":10040.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10052.60346875,"end":10053.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10054.13909375,"end":10055.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10065.68159375,"end":10067.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10067.875343750002,"end":10079.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10079.28284375,"end":10083.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10083.94034375,"end":10089.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10089.27284375,"end":10092.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10093.00221875,"end":10099.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10100.12346875,"end":10102.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10103.312843750002,"end":10104.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10104.54471875,"end":10108.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10108.18971875,"end":10180.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10181.039093750001,"end":10189.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10190.18534375,"end":10190.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10190.20221875,"end":10246.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10246.851593750001,"end":10248.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10249.09596875,"end":10252.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10253.179718750001,"end":10261.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10262.207843750002,"end":10267.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10267.253468750001,"end":10277.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10278.222218750001,"end":10281.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10282.00221875,"end":10307.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10307.770343750002,"end":10312.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10312.74846875,"end":10318.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10318.418468750002,"end":10353.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10353.82221875,"end":10361.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10361.31471875,"end":10366.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10367.828468750002,"end":10371.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10372.08096875,"end":10375.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10375.692218750002,"end":10385.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10385.867843750002,"end":10395.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10395.992843750002,"end":10400.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10400.954093750002,"end":10401.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10401.105968750002,"end":10401.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10401.274718750003,"end":10401.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10401.780968750001,"end":10401.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10401.93284375,"end":10450.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10451.32596875,"end":10453.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10455.055343750002,"end":10455.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10455.08909375,"end":10455.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10459.172843750002,"end":10459.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10459.223468750002,"end":10459.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10459.72971875,"end":10467.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10467.30659375,"end":10471.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10471.52534375,"end":10479.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10479.81096875,"end":10482.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10482.76409375,"end":10487.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10488.332843750002,"end":10492.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10493.09159375,"end":10499.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10500.195968750002,"end":10503.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10503.621593750002,"end":10507.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10507.60409375,"end":10517.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10509.59534375,"end":10509.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10509.899093750002,"end":10509.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10510.03409375,"end":10510.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10510.067843750003,"end":10510.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10517.62784375,"end":10531.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10531.566593750002,"end":10538.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10539.312218750001,"end":10541.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10541.50596875,"end":10546.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10546.855343750001,"end":10547.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10548.239093750002,"end":10553.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10553.571593750003,"end":10556.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10557.01409375,"end":10561.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10562.954093750002,"end":10569.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10577.230343750001,"end":10580.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10580.925968750002,"end":10581.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10590.375968750002,"end":10596.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10597.56471875,"end":10602.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10603.25159375,"end":10610.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10610.254718750002,"end":10630.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10630.386593750001,"end":10638.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10638.97596875,"end":10638.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10639.262843750003,"end":10644.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10645.40534375,"end":10648.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10649.286593750003,"end":10650.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10650.24846875,"end":10650.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10650.636593750001,"end":10651.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10651.429718750001,"end":10652.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10654.804718750001,"end":10655.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10655.36159375,"end":10656.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10657.909718750001,"end":10660.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10660.84596875,"end":10670.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10670.70096875,"end":10673.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10675.24034375,"end":10677.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10678.277843750002,"end":10678.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10678.88534375,"end":10681.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10681.66971875,"end":10686.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10686.63096875,"end":10688.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10688.95971875,"end":10703.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10703.759093750003,"end":10704.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10704.72096875,"end":10712.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10712.90534375,"end":10715.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10715.75721875,"end":10717.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10718.980343750001,"end":10721.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10722.051593750002,"end":10723.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10725.359093750001,"end":10726.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10727.164718750002,"end":10777.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10777.570343750001,"end":10782.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10783.71284375,"end":10784.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10784.742218750001,"end":10788.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10788.505343750003,"end":10790.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10790.88471875,"end":10794.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10795.339718750001,"end":10796.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10797.077843750001,"end":10800.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10801.02659375,"end":10803.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10803.743468750003,"end":10804.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10804.65471875,"end":10805.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10806.055343750002,"end":10811.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10812.332843750002,"end":10818.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10819.09971875,"end":10824.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10825.32659375,"end":10831.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10826.879093750002,"end":10827.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10829.96721875,"end":10834.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10834.641593750002,"end":10836.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10834.692218750002,"end":10835.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10837.695968750002,"end":10842.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10840.868468750003,"end":10843.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10844.277218750001,"end":10856.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10852.79909375,"end":10853.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10855.44846875,"end":10859.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10859.464718750001,"end":10859.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10859.59971875,"end":10864.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10864.76346875,"end":10869.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10869.62346875,"end":10870.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10871.04096875,"end":10875.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10876.356593750003,"end":10885.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10886.24534375,"end":10893.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10893.855968750002,"end":10903.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10903.457843750002,"end":10906.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10906.42784375,"end":10911.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10911.43971875,"end":10916.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10917.261593750001,"end":10924.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10924.450343750003,"end":10925.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10926.019718750002,"end":10927.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10929.68159375,"end":10938.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10934.980343750001,"end":10935.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10938.96284375,"end":10938.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10939.08096875,"end":10945.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10949.15534375,"end":10952.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10952.817218750002,"end":10955.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10955.88846875,"end":10961.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10961.895968750003,"end":10965.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10966.03034375,"end":10971.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10972.274093750002,"end":10975.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10974.332843750002,"end":10974.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10976.05409375,"end":10985.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10986.16221875,"end":10994.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10995.274718750003,"end":11002.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11001.94034375,"end":11001.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11001.974093750003,"end":11002.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11002.058468750001,"end":11002.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11002.075343750003,"end":11002.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11002.09221875,"end":11002.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11002.547843750002,"end":11003.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11003.324093750001,"end":11003.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11003.72909375,"end":11004.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11005.062218750001,"end":11009.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11011.49159375,"end":11013.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11014.32659375,"end":11015.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11015.00159375,"end":11021.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11015.102843750003,"end":11015.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11022.07221875,"end":11022.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11022.71346875,"end":11026.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11026.40909375,"end":11028.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11029.395968750003,"end":11032.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11032.78784375,"end":11035.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11035.707218750002,"end":11059.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11061.390968750002,"end":11063.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11063.95596875,"end":11072.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11074.01346875,"end":11074.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11074.75596875,"end":11074.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11074.958468750003,"end":11075.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11075.02596875,"end":11075.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11075.97096875,"end":11076.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11076.105968750002,"end":11080.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11080.71284375,"end":11081.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11082.61971875,"end":11087.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11087.597843750002,"end":11117.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11118.25971875,"end":11118.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11119.457843750002,"end":11122.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11139.269093750001,"end":11139.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11139.52221875,"end":11144.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11144.027843750002,"end":11145.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11148.06096875,"end":11149.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11149.832843750002,"end":11149.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11150.44034375,"end":11168.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11168.766593750002,"end":11169.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11169.120968750001,"end":11169.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11169.289718750002,"end":11175.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11175.398468750001,"end":11180.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11180.477843750003,"end":11271.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11272.497218750003,"end":11272.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11272.51409375,"end":11273.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11273.40846875,"end":11273.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11273.425343750001,"end":11273.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11273.442218750002,"end":11274.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11273.45909375,"end":11273.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11275.551593750002,"end":11276.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11277.222218750001,"end":11287.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11287.667843750001,"end":11321.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11320.82721875,"end":11367.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11369.157218750002,"end":11374.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11374.489718750003,"end":11391.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11391.972218750001,"end":11399.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11399.160968750002,"end":11399.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11399.34659375,"end":11409.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11411.665343750003,"end":11415.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11415.63096875,"end":11428.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11431.898468750001,"end":11483.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11432.50596875,"end":11432.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11432.97846875,"end":11433.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11483.907218750002,"end":11489.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11489.914718750002,"end":11495.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11495.449718750002,"end":11498.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11498.520968750003,"end":11499.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11500.140968750002,"end":11510.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11510.907218750002,"end":11521.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11517.437843750002,"end":11517.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11518.028468750003,"end":11518.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11518.04534375,"end":11519.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11520.593468750001,"end":11532.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11522.550968750002,"end":11522.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11522.669093750003,"end":11522.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11531.984093750001,"end":11533.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11533.01346875,"end":11534.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11534.71784375,"end":11576.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11575.403468750003,"end":11575.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11576.09534375,"end":11580.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11576.669093750003,"end":11577.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11579.723468750002,"end":11580.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11580.53346875,"end":11584.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11585.005343750003,"end":11587.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11586.59159375,"end":11589.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11589.780968750001,"end":11604.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11604.546593750001,"end":11612.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11607.837218750003,"end":11608.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11612.427218750003,"end":11617.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11617.844093750002,"end":11657.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11657.06159375,"end":11657.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11657.230343750001,"end":11658.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11661.398468750001,"end":11666.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11675.219093750002,"end":11684.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11685.462218750003,"end":11687.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11688.364718750003,"end":11706.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11706.40409375,"end":11708.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11710.09971875,"end":11713.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11713.59284375,"end":11713.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11715.38159375,"end":11715.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11715.398468750001,"end":11724.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11724.274718750003,"end":11726.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11725.81034375,"end":11726.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11726.367218750001,"end":11726.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11726.957843750002,"end":11740.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11739.344093750002,"end":11762.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11741.149718750003,"end":11742.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11762.766593750002,"end":11766.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11768.01471875,"end":11770.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11770.630343750003,"end":11771.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11772.469718750002,"end":11773.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11773.937843750002,"end":11785.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11786.121593750002,"end":11789.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11789.445968750002,"end":11794.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11795.11596875,"end":11801.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11802.22034375,"end":11835.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11835.430343750002,"end":11835.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11835.44721875,"end":11835.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11836.30784375,"end":11849.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11850.094718750002,"end":11850.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11850.938468750002,"end":11860.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11859.34221875,"end":11866.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11866.395968750003,"end":11866.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11866.817843750003,"end":11866.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11866.969718750002,"end":11867.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11868.606593750003,"end":11875.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11876.84159375,"end":11880.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11879.524718750003,"end":11880.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11880.33471875,"end":11880.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11880.351593750001,"end":11880.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11880.368468750003,"end":11880.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11880.570968750002,"end":11883.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11883.996593750002,"end":11885.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11885.49846875,"end":11885.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11887.067843750003,"end":11887.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11888.417843750001,"end":11896.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11896.63596875,"end":11924.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11923.04534375,"end":11948.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11948.695343750001,"end":11956.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11956.22159375,"end":11956.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11956.27221875,"end":11956.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11956.761593750001,"end":11956.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11956.778468750003,"end":11956.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11957.16659375,"end":11971.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11972.20221875,"end":11978.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11978.78346875,"end":11983.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11983.69409375,"end":11994.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11995.320968750002,"end":12004.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12004.68659375,"end":12020.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12020.22846875,"end":12029.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12029.425343750001,"end":12039.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12040.10721875,"end":12051.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12051.531593750002,"end":12051.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12051.852218750002,"end":12052.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12052.03784375,"end":12060.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12061.04909375,"end":12073.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12075.527843750002,"end":12078.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12078.649718750003,"end":12081.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12090.867218750001,"end":12092.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12093.077843750001,"end":12094.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12094.95096875,"end":12095.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12096.047843750002,"end":12097.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12097.17846875,"end":12099.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12099.50721875,"end":12101.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12101.144093750001,"end":12101.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12106.56096875,"end":12107.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12108.29909375,"end":12110.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12110.94846875,"end":12112.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12112.973468750002,"end":12114.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12115.285343750002,"end":12117.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12117.344093750002,"end":12117.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12118.52534375,"end":12120.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12121.15784375,"end":12122.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12123.13221875,"end":12125.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12126.034718750001,"end":12130.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12130.81034375,"end":12130.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12130.97909375,"end":12135.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12136.024718750003,"end":12156.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12145.559093750002,"end":12145.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12145.96409375,"end":12146.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12156.59534375,"end":12164.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12165.083468750003,"end":12167.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12167.63159375,"end":12169.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12168.644093750001,"end":12169.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12169.656593750002,"end":12169.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12169.67346875,"end":12169.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12169.757843750001,"end":12169.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12169.79159375,"end":12169.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12169.808468750001,"end":12169.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12169.875968750002,"end":12170.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12170.01096875,"end":12170.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12170.145968750003,"end":12170.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12170.179718750001,"end":12170.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12170.280968750001,"end":12170.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12170.36534375,"end":12170.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12170.90534375,"end":12171.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12171.715343750002,"end":12171.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12171.90096875,"end":12177.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12172.59284375,"end":12173.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12174.80346875,"end":12175.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12175.512218750002,"end":12175.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12177.992843750002,"end":12187.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12187.03784375,"end":12187.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12187.30784375,"end":12187.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12187.34159375,"end":12187.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12189.332843750002,"end":12192.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12194.395343750002,"end":12195.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12195.930968750003,"end":12199.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12199.79534375,"end":12206.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12206.86596875,"end":12206.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12206.984093750001,"end":12210.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12208.587218750003,"end":12213.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12214.45971875,"end":12215.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12216.315968750001,"end":12216.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12217.058468750001,"end":12220.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12220.04534375,"end":12220.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12220.433468750001,"end":12220.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12221.14221875,"end":12222.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12223.31909375,"end":12230.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12229.37721875,"end":12237.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12238.118468750003,"end":12249.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12246.606593750003,"end":12250.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12250.67346875,"end":12252.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12252.79971875,"end":12255.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12255.972218750001,"end":12256.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12256.259093750003,"end":12256.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12256.309718750003,"end":12256.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12257.204093750002,"end":12268.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12268.223468750002,"end":12270.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12270.332843750002,"end":12271.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12271.83471875,"end":12273.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12274.821593750003,"end":12275.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12275.15909375,"end":12275.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12275.88471875,"end":12276.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12277.09971875,"end":12291.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12289.38471875,"end":12303.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12291.797843750002,"end":12292.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12303.509093750003,"end":12308.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12308.85846875,"end":12315.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12312.098468750002,"end":12313.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12313.87034375,"end":12314.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12315.945968750002,"end":12319.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12319.118468750003,"end":12322.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12321.56534375,"end":12323.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12322.847843750002,"end":12324.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12323.860343750002,"end":12326.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12327.184718750003,"end":12329.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12329.98596875,"end":12332.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12333.074093750001,"end":12338.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12338.54159375,"end":12339.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12339.70596875,"end":12341.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12341.849093750003,"end":12347.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12347.316593750002,"end":12354.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12352.024718750003,"end":12352.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12354.066593750002,"end":12354.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12354.809093750002,"end":12359.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12356.88471875,"end":12357.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12360.00659375,"end":12361.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12362.16659375,"end":12368.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12364.394093750001,"end":12365.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12368.27534375,"end":12373.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12374.535968750002,"end":12377.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12377.742218750001,"end":12379.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12378.805343750002,"end":12380.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12379.61534375,"end":12380.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12382.129718750002,"end":12384.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12385.605968750002,"end":12388.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12389.01471875,"end":12389.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12389.53784375,"end":12390.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12390.027218750001,"end":12390.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12390.145343750002,"end":12391.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12391.12409375,"end":12391.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12391.410968750002,"end":12391.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12391.44471875,"end":12391.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12392.035343750002,"end":12392.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12393.85784375,"end":12401.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12402.312218750001,"end":12405.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12405.704093750002,"end":12406.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12406.76721875,"end":12408.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12409.382843750001,"end":12411.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12411.42471875,"end":12414.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12414.79971875,"end":12416.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12416.200343750003,"end":12417.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12418.782218750002,"end":12419.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12420.030968750001,"end":12422.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12423.28784375,"end":12428.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12429.41346875,"end":12430.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12430.29096875,"end":12430.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12430.999718750001,"end":12434.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12435.066593750002,"end":12438.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12438.69471875,"end":12439.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12440.331593750001,"end":12440.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12441.023468750001,"end":12442.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12443.200343750003,"end":12443.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12443.90909375,"end":12446.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12447.030968750001,"end":12449.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12449.984093750001,"end":12453.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12453.93284375,"end":12461.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12462.25221875,"end":12465.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12465.390968750002,"end":12467.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12468.20909375,"end":12471.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12472.039718750002,"end":12476.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12476.96721875,"end":12479.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12479.785343750002,"end":12481.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12481.72596875,"end":12482.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12483.12659375,"end":12486.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12487.328468750002,"end":12490.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12490.973468750002,"end":12493.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12493.977218750002,"end":12497.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12497.571593750003,"end":12498.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12500.102843750003,"end":12503.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12503.69721875,"end":12506.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12506.515343750001,"end":12508.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12508.33784375,"end":12513.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12514.14284375,"end":12523.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12524.672843750002,"end":12527.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12528.199718750002,"end":12529.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12530.34284375,"end":12531.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12531.996593750002,"end":12537.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12537.56534375,"end":12540.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12541.21034375,"end":12542.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12543.15096875,"end":12544.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12545.31096875,"end":12548.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12548.83784375,"end":12552.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12552.21284375,"end":12554.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12554.76096875,"end":12556.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12556.87034375,"end":12558.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12559.469093750002,"end":12563.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12563.586593750002,"end":12568.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12568.480343750001,"end":12571.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12571.551593750002,"end":12572.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12573.27284375,"end":12576.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12576.985343750002,"end":12581.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12582.030968750001,"end":12585.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12586.55346875,"end":12590.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12590.08034375,"end":12593.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12594.24846875,"end":12594.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12595.379093750002,"end":12595.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12596.89784375,"end":12599.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12599.918468750002,"end":12603.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12603.58034375,"end":12617.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12617.789093750001,"end":12634.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12634.765343750001,"end":12649.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12649.902218750001,"end":12663.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12661.883468750002,"end":12663.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12663.60471875,"end":12665.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12663.75659375,"end":12663.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12666.43971875,"end":12668.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12668.937218750001,"end":12673.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12674.18534375,"end":12678.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12679.652843750002,"end":12685.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12686.26784375,"end":12686.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12686.301593750002,"end":12686.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12686.402843750002,"end":12689.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12686.41971875,"end":12686.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12689.777843750002,"end":12694.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12695.042843750001,"end":12697.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12697.86096875,"end":12700.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12701.23596875,"end":12706.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12705.37034375,"end":12705.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12705.387218750002,"end":12705.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12705.45471875,"end":12705.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12705.505343750003,"end":12705.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12705.555968750003,"end":12705.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12706.754093750002,"end":12712.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12712.980968750002,"end":12715.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12715.95096875,"end":12718.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12718.684718750003,"end":12725.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12725.367218750001,"end":12727.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12727.695968750002,"end":12729.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12729.83909375,"end":12732.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12733.19721875,"end":12735.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12735.593468750001,"end":12735.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12736.52159375,"end":12745.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12745.90409375,"end":12759.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12759.74159375,"end":12767.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12767.33534375,"end":12771.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12772.07721875,"end":12780.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12781.45971875,"end":12786.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12786.859718750002,"end":12787.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12788.31096875,"end":12789.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12789.593468750001,"end":12792.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12793.137218750002,"end":12794.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12795.26346875,"end":12795.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12796.17471875,"end":12802.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12802.35096875,"end":12802.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12802.367843750002,"end":12802.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12802.671593750001,"end":12805.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12805.60784375,"end":12810.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12810.484718750002,"end":12811.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12811.98659375,"end":12817.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12816.35721875,"end":12816.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12817.977218750002,"end":12820.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12819.69846875,"end":12828.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12826.54971875,"end":12827.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12827.899718750003,"end":12832.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12833.13096875,"end":12842.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12837.56909375,"end":12838.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12841.112843750001,"end":12841.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12842.597843750002,"end":12843.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12843.019718750002,"end":12854.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12853.094093750002,"end":12854.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12854.899718750003,"end":12856.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12857.65034375,"end":12858.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12857.852843750003,"end":12860.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12859.945343750001,"end":12865.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12892.93596875,"end":12896.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12896.648468750001,"end":12898.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12902.031593750002,"end":12902.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12902.26784375,"end":12902.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12902.85846875,"end":12903.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12903.769718750002,"end":12917.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12907.65096875,"end":12908.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12912.004718750002,"end":12915.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12915.261593750001,"end":12915.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12917.590343750002,"end":12917.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12917.60721875,"end":12917.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12917.99534375,"end":12918.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12919.480343750001,"end":12923.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12924.239093750002,"end":12928.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12929.01471875,"end":12929.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12930.989093750002,"end":12933.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12934.262843750003,"end":12935.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12936.01784375,"end":12937.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12937.92471875,"end":12938.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12939.173468750003,"end":12941.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12943.66221875,"end":12973.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12973.277843750002,"end":12974.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12976.46721875,"end":12981.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12981.69846875,"end":12985.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12985.84971875,"end":12986.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12987.97596875,"end":12988.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12989.410343750002,"end":12993.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12993.46034375,"end":12995.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12996.44721875,"end":12999.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13000.007843750001,"end":13001.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13002.066593750002,"end":13007.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13007.449718750002,"end":13009.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13010.504093750002,"end":13012.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13012.69784375,"end":13013.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13014.16596875,"end":13015.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13015.97159375,"end":13023.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13023.88596875,"end":13057.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13043.39346875,"end":13043.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13056.82596875,"end":13057.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13057.78784375,"end":13061.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13061.652218750001,"end":13062.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13062.05721875,"end":13062.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13062.074093750001,"end":13062.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13062.15846875,"end":13070.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13069.90409375,"end":13074.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13073.71784375,"end":13082.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13076.72159375,"end":13077.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13081.51409375,"end":13084.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13084.09596875,"end":13085.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13085.142218750003,"end":13088.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13088.16284375,"end":13088.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13088.80409375,"end":13090.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13091.01471875,"end":13091.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13092.499718750001,"end":13095.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13095.570968750002,"end":13097.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13097.629718750002,"end":13098.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13099.50284375,"end":13101.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13101.527843750002,"end":13104.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13103.29971875,"end":13104.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13105.40909375,"end":13106.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13106.657843750003,"end":13107.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13107.957218750002,"end":13110.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13111.129718750002,"end":13113.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13113.880343750003,"end":13117.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13118.200343750003,"end":13119.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13119.48284375,"end":13122.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13122.97596875,"end":13126.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13127.144093750001,"end":13129.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13130.114093750002,"end":13132.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13132.493468750003,"end":13135.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13136.340968750003,"end":13137.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13137.707843750002,"end":13141.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13142.770343750002,"end":13147.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13147.832843750002,"end":13151.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13152.304718750001,"end":13156.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13156.118468750003,"end":13157.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13157.704718750003,"end":13160.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13160.35409375,"end":13160.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13160.40471875,"end":13168.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13168.859093750001,"end":13179.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13179.254093750002,"end":13180.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13179.59159375,"end":13185.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13183.523468750001,"end":13197.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13195.69034375,"end":13196.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13197.74909375,"end":13200.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13201.54596875,"end":13208.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13206.49034375,"end":13212.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13213.392218750003,"end":13214.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13214.843468750001,"end":13216.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13216.98659375,"end":13219.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13220.024093750002,"end":13221.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13221.660968750002,"end":13223.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13221.981593750003,"end":13229.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13223.027843750002,"end":13223.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13229.32221875,"end":13234.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13234.35096875,"end":13234.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13234.40159375,"end":13234.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13234.43534375,"end":13252.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13234.620968750001,"end":13236.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13252.710968750001,"end":13257.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13258.33034375,"end":13260.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13258.566593750002,"end":13260.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13261.097843750002,"end":13266.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13264.995968750001,"end":13269.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13269.501593750003,"end":13272.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13272.62346875,"end":13274.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13273.129718750002,"end":13290.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13290.780968750001,"end":13291.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13292.02971875,"end":13293.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13294.08846875,"end":13296.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13296.012218750002,"end":13298.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13296.56909375,"end":13296.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13297.767218750003,"end":13297.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13297.969718750002,"end":13298.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13298.543468750002,"end":13298.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13298.88096875,"end":13320.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13320.750968750002,"end":13327.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13327.73721875,"end":13334.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13334.63909375,"end":13341.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13341.405968750001,"end":13354.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13355.20971875,"end":13368.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13369.114718750003,"end":13371.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13371.899093750002,"end":13373.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13373.957843750002,"end":13376.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13376.809718750003,"end":13379.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13379.77971875,"end":13381.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13381.754093750002,"end":13383.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13384.386593750001,"end":13386.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13387.255343750003,"end":13388.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13389.06096875,"end":13391.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13391.54159375,"end":13394.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13394.54534375,"end":13396.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13396.570343750001,"end":13398.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13399.202843750001,"end":13406.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13407.758468750002,"end":13409.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13409.95221875,"end":13411.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13411.825343750003,"end":13412.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13413.74909375,"end":13415.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13416.297218750002,"end":13418.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13418.575343750003,"end":13419.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13420.566593750002,"end":13423.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13423.75596875,"end":13428.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13429.544093750003,"end":13431.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13431.434093750002,"end":13437.492218750001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1722.748,"end":1733.808,"text":"好現在開會出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1737.881,"end":1765.52,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議一事錄時間113年3月11日星期一上午9時7分至下午1時21分地點本院紅樓201會議室出席委員陳素月等13人列席委員林德甫等35人請假委員2人列席官員國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥等主席陳昭吉委員學生報告事項宣讀上次會議一事錄決定一事錄確定"},{"start":1767.264,"end":1791.882,"text":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會報告業務概況．並備質詢二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會進行專題報告一項．並備質詢本日會議由國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥說明後繼由委員翁曉琳等25人提出質詢均經主任委員陳耀祥及相關人員分別予以答覆決定一、說明及詢答完畢二、有關本日國家通訊傳播委員會業務及專題報告"},{"start":1794.624,"end":1817.862,"text":"請補充資料並另折其補行報告本日書面報告列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員呈數月等六人所提書面質詢均列入紀錄並刊登公報四委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或為其答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會盡速以書面答覆通過臨時提案氣象散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1822.253,"end":1825.895,"text":"請問各位委員．上次會議議事錄．有無錯誤或遺漏之處好．議事錄確定來介紹那個在場"},{"start":1839.319,"end":1853.031,"text":"謝謝各位委員大家對於交通部氣象署業務而如此關心氣象關心到人民的生活那第二我再一次的說明有關於"},{"start":1854.653,"end":1870.281,"text":"會議基本規範我們召開會議所設定的題目如果退回報告那就失去了開會的基本目的當日的會議就必須要以座談會的形式來做處理"},{"start":1872.618,"end":1900.348,"text":"陳雪生召委的處理我們予以尊重都符合基本的規範之後我們今天也做一絲路的確定現在介紹在場的委員陳雪生召委魯明哲委員林佩祥委員邱若驊委員林國成委員"},{"start":1903.224,"end":1929.934,"text":"黃建豪委員、游浩委員、徐富奎委員、廖先祥委員介紹在場的官員交通部常務次長林國賢次長、中央氣象署陳佳平署長"},{"start":1932.247,"end":1948.714,"text":"副署長呂國成．主任秘書簡國基本日議程為．邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況．並備詢答．現在先請林次長報告"},{"start":1961.393,"end":1982.167,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好今天代表交通部出席本委員會請本部中央氣象署就當前的重要工作提出報告進行各位委員指教本部中央氣象署在去年9月15日正式升格後由原主要負責政策執行的工作提升為兼具政策規劃與執行功能的機關"},{"start":1983.628,"end":2000.305,"text":"在推動所掌管的氣象、海象、地震等業務呈現多元具體的成果近年來氣候變遷及極端氣候災害挑戰向我國未來面臨更劇烈的颱風、水旱災、寒潮熱浪及其衍生的複合性災害的威脅"},{"start":2001.626,"end":2017.85,"text":"為了提升中央與地方防災救災的能力跟應變與治理氣象署積極來精進氣象的測報能力以強化我國因應氣候變遷的韌性氣象署113年的重點工作將著重在完備災防天氣偵測網精緻化的天氣預警"},{"start":2020.751,"end":2042.889,"text":"提升颱風的預測精度﹐強化地震的預警﹐跟加速氣象AI人工智慧應用發展等重要工作方面此外更透過跨域領域的合作﹐協助進行氣候變遷的風險管理跟調適的作為希望透過各重要計畫的推動跟執行﹐包含尚在爭取中的新一代高速電腦的建置"},{"start":2043.57,"end":2044.01,"text":"現在請氣象署陳署長報告"},{"start":2080.706,"end":2105.281,"text":"主席還有各位委員好氣象署在這邊做業務報告今天家平很榮幸能夠代表交通部中央氣象署就主管的業務提出報告那敬請各位委員指教台灣所處的地理環境幾乎每年都會受到颱風、豪雨、寒潮、極端天氣還有地震的影響加上全球氣候變遷的趨勢顯著引發各種"},{"start":2108.243,"end":2135.285,"text":"覆核型的災害威脅影響我國的國際民生非常大氣象署主管我國的氣象業務範圍涵蓋了氣象、地震、海象還有太空天氣相關的領域近年來積極研發先進的氣象科技提升氣象測報的效能此外為了因應氣候變遷有效支持國家進行災防預警還有決策應變同時提供社會大眾"},{"start":2137,"end":2155.307,"text":"與各領域最適切的氣象服務．氣象署緊密扣合整體政府施政的方向．還有氣象署業務的白皮書所擬定的深化核心技術．優化有感服務．活化夥伴關係．強化營運韌性四大政策主軸．"},{"start":2156.806,"end":2185.362,"text":"具體落實氣象署的任務和使命過去氣象署的各項施政承蒙各位委員鼎力支持使氣象署在多項政策的推動和執行上面均能夠適時完成今天藉這個機會向各位委員表達由衷的謝意並請各位委員持續的支持接下來向各位委員報告氣象署近期推動的八項重要工作以及三項正申辦中的相關的工作"},{"start":2186.633,"end":2202.7,"text":"那其中第一項廣設入海空防災天氣監測網那我們知道觀測資料非常的重要因為知道現在的狀況我們沒有辦法做預測所以觀測資料有關監測網的設置是非常非常重要的工作"},{"start":2203.18,"end":2219.427,"text":"那今年113年預計在路上監測網部分會完成增加70座的自動氣象站還有20座的沿海沿岸的氣象觀測站在海上的監測網部分會增加10艘船舶的自動氣象觀測以及海上浮標的雨量監測"},{"start":2221.128,"end":2237.673,"text":"另外會加強有關異常波浪預警的系統4套以及相關離岸流的預警在大氣垂直方面的監測網會增加一套無人機及發展微型探空系統並且持續"},{"start":2239.834,"end":2258.514,"text":"進行自動探測自動觀測作業那無人機探空還有還有光達的高空剖面觀測那在114年預計在路上會增加100座的自動氣象站還有沿岸的氣象站5座海上的部分會增加30艘船舶的觀測系統"},{"start":2260.296,"end":2275.521,"text":"那以及光學的影像監測站以及全國異常波浪系統3套在邊界層的觀測網會完成兩套微型作業的微型探控系統及一套無人機的觀測系統另外會增加這個關達剖面觀測5套"},{"start":2277.822,"end":2305.402,"text":"那第二在災害性天氣預警邁向精緻化的部分那氣象署積極發展更精緻的預報提升劇烈天氣的預警技術那依據災害性的災害的等級那跟地方中央和地方政府做討論那氣象署以黃、橙、紅、三色來做相關的燈號分布那將災害性天氣的預警由縣市的尺度逐漸朝向更精緻化的鄉鎮的方向來發展"},{"start":2306.403,"end":2330.115,"text":"那在特別是在111年起那分別針對低溫還有高溫的部分已經提供了這個鄉鎮相關市區的預報那以及包含我們山地原住民的這個燈號提供各界來做參考那未來的工作重點會強化我們相關有關颱風的強風特報以及大雨特報的鄉鎮市區的燈號預警"},{"start":2334.482,"end":2350.958,"text":"經濟氣象雷達及時預警提升溪流水域安全在111年的時候氣象署透由與雙北市政府合作與臺北市雙溪、新北市大報溪與虎豹潭三處示範溪流暴漲預警"},{"start":2353.152,"end":2377.164,"text":"那112年在與這個行政院災防辦以及我們的地方政府增加一共10個縣市19個溪流區域來擴大相關的事辦那這件事情的複雜度在於降雨的地方和實際發生事件的地方不一樣不僅在時間上不一樣在空間上也不一樣所以有非常非常具有非常大的挑戰性所以透過這個事辦112年我們一共發布了117次的預警"},{"start":2381.986,"end":2402.174,"text":"有超過6成比例有提前預警的效果那在未來的工作重點今年的部分我們已經邀集了這個災防辦中央還有地方政府單位來做說明並且在今年會這個正式的來提供相關的這個這個新流的預警的預報"},{"start":2404.541,"end":2427.873,"text":"並且會透過細胞廣播來發送預警配合縣市水域的安全情務以多元管道來提供民眾希望能夠減少水域事故的發生第4提升颱風預測的精度以及早期預警的準確度近年氣象署持續擴展颱風預報的服務包含在登陸的時候"},{"start":2429.339,"end":2439.807,"text":"強化颱風的告警．在停班提供決策之前．辦理地方政府的連線會議．並且仿照颱風預報提前．於熱帶性低氣壓的時候．啟動相關的預報作業．並且在111年起．適時提前在海上警報發布現式的風雨預報．以及在去年112年起．發布颱風不對稱的暴風半徑．"},{"start":2457.62,"end":2476.769,"text":"那在未來的工作重點今年的部分特別是在我們的颱風季預計要參考美國國家颶風中心強化侵襲機率的預報進一步來提供暴風圈最早抵達時間的估計那另外在這個今年的颱風季也同時要在警報期間來決策期間來提供"},{"start":2481.172,"end":2505.671,"text":"臺風警報期間的沿海地區的風力預報那協助我們的地方政府來做相關的這個停班停課的決策第5協助氣象產業發展強化跨領域氣候服務那氣象署積極協助我國氣象產業的發展並推動公司協力跨領域的應用來提供氣候科學還有資料服務來支援各個領域面對氣候變遷的風險管理還有調適的需求"},{"start":2508.493,"end":2518.007,"text":"那相關的作為包含了在111年我們推動了我們的民間成立臺灣氣候服務聯盟來建立氣象產業溝通的平臺凸顯氣象服務的價值來擴展我國氣象產業的鏈結"},{"start":2524.756,"end":2543.268,"text":"並且持續推動氣象資源創新適用方案來提升業者推動跨領域的應用服務此外並且與我們的農業部還有水利署以及國科會做合作來推動有關農業以及我國在氣候變遷相關基礎資料的知識還有相關的風險的評估"},{"start":2548.211,"end":2556.053,"text":"那在未來的部分很重要一件事情我們在調修氣象法來促進氣象產業發展和人才培育的相關條文來帶動我們整體氣象產業的發展此外我們並且持續精進我們的氣象科技開發無縫隙的這個產品促進和結合我們的公司協力提供跨領域的氣候資訊服務來支援國家氣候變遷調適還有減量作為"},{"start":2575.517,"end":2603.733,"text":"6加速氣象人工智慧應用發展有鑒於今年國際上人工智慧機器學習技術應用於氣象測報還有模擬的領域快速發展那氣象署在去年9月特別邀集了我們的學者專家來舉辦AI天氣預報的討論會那並且在今年2月更廣邀我們的產官學員界擴大舉辦氣象人工智慧應用"},{"start":2604.873,"end":2629.75,"text":"應用發展說明會那對外來展現本署積極推展AI人工智慧及機器學習技術應用於氣象產業發展的相關的願景那在未來的部分氣象署會持續在數值預報作業的模式流程裡面導入這個人工智慧相關的應用技術並且產製這高解析度的長期分析的預報資料來開發適用於臺灣"},{"start":2633.453,"end":2650.82,"text":"天氣、氣候特徵的人工智慧高解析度區域天氣預報模式今年重點會在進行以氣象資料驅動為基礎的人工智慧模式的先期建構評估以及未來作業化架構的規劃"},{"start":2653.671,"end":2675.937,"text":"7、擴充地震觀測設施強化地震預警效能氣象署在110年開始執行前瞻基礎建設都會區強震的精進計畫透過增建32座警下地震站以及升級96座強震站將我們地震速報的時效從10秒縮短到7秒並且讓盲區縮短至25公里左右"},{"start":2680.798,"end":2691.837,"text":"目前已經完成臺北、新竹、桃園、臺南4個都會區的相關的預測另外在有關南部海域的地震海底監測的部分"},{"start":2694.933,"end":2702.7,"text":"這個部分主要是在執行臺灣南部海域地震與海嘯海底監測系統建置計畫這是原來是從110年到113年的相關的計畫那這個計畫經歷了多次的流標還有新冠疫情之後這個供應鏈混亂"},{"start":2713.55,"end":2721.553,"text":"的這個影響那成本大增所以我們已經報過第二次的這個修正計畫那修正計畫改為8年的計畫從110年到117年那相關鋪設的"},{"start":2729.056,"end":2755.842,"text":"海嵐的長度是200公里並且設置三座海嵐監測站總經費調升大概在27億左右可以提供地震預警大概14秒海上預警30分鐘相關的第二次修正計畫目前正在呈報行政院核定中未來的重點在今年和明年的相關重點分別要精進高雄還有臺中都會區的強制預警系統"},{"start":2757.662,"end":2768.775,"text":"另外在市場上尋求海嵐最新的規格準備第4次海嵐系統招標第8辦理智慧海象環境災防服務計畫"},{"start":2771.1,"end":2789.911,"text":"主要的相關的工作內容包含了擴大我們對於臺灣臨近海域遙測監測的範圍達到3000平方公里並且增加臨近海域25%的觀測量能那海上能夠增加8倍的相關的觀測那第二項是發展海域"},{"start":2790.711,"end":2802.938,"text":"海上的預報技術建置環島異常波浪的預警系統區域動力偶合降尺度海氣向預報系統以及提升我們在海域的綠能監測分析還有這個風能發電量密度相關的預測"},{"start":2807.481,"end":2833.776,"text":"那此外也同時辦理這個氣象海氣象的時空雲應用和智慧海氣象的服務來新增相關防災的應用港口還有潮流日報以及沿近海的漁礦時空分布相關的資訊的產品那當然預期我們預期在未來能夠持續強化海氣象監測的效能來擴大海氣象的這個量能那可以掌握中小尺度的天氣系統提前12到24小時"},{"start":2835.737,"end":2862.849,"text":"的觀測自災型豪雨並且提前10到20分鐘來提來發布海嘯的預警那此外在提升海象測報技術方面那我們期待能夠提升這個風能發電的效率以及節省綠能營運成本的燃油費用那在災害損失上面減少上面能夠提供更及時更多元的海象預警資訊增進海上的災防航運漁業綠能"},{"start":2864.83,"end":2887.189,"text":"海洋產業相關的服務量能接下來向各位委員報告本署在申辦中的3項重要計畫那這3項計畫都是預計在114年開始執行那第一項也就是在我們的報告書裡面第9項內容第一項是申辦金馬雷達建置還有及時災防預警推進計畫這是從111年到119年的6年計畫"},{"start":2893.774,"end":2913.729,"text":"這個計畫主要是希望能夠在金門和馬祖來各建制西坡段和毫米坡段的雷達兩座一個是針對降雨,另外一個是針對農務相關的監測量能並且能夠讓我國在西部海域的部分能夠有更完整的監測資料"},{"start":2915.47,"end":2919.331,"text":"這個計畫目前已經在這個經過國發會在113年2月5號的時候召開審議會本署正依照這個意見修正計畫完成並且在3月7號已經再次含請國發會來進行審查"},{"start":2933.675,"end":2953.232,"text":"那我們期待的預期效益是希望能夠達成金門和馬祖以及西部上游劇烈天氣更早期的預警並且提升對農務的災害預警能力那另外一部分是強化暴雨預報的技術提升短延時強降雨的這個相關的預報那強降雨機率的風險瞬時的強風雷暴冰暴還有龍捲風等極端天氣的相關的預警"},{"start":2961.124,"end":2965.067,"text":"第二項申報的計畫是申辦氣象風險數位治理與跨領域氣象創新計畫這是由114年到118年這是一個5年的計畫那這個計畫期待能夠透過數位治理的概念能夠強化氣象監測和預報的作業能力並且因應這個日益劇烈的天氣衝擊展開以"},{"start":2986.301,"end":3010.897,"text":"以數位技術為核心建立高品質、高流通、高價值的國家級氣象資料庫來達成數位治理和產業鏈結的目標那這個計畫有幾項重點第一個部分是導入全山科技接軌國際科研第二個部分是精進氣象、精進科技創新實現安心社會第三個部分是活化資料治理"},{"start":3012.039,"end":3013.203,"text":"創造永續價值．4打造樂活家園"},{"start":3017.591,"end":3041.05,"text":"共創產業發展．共有4大目標、25個工作項目．期待未來能夠達成人民安心應用創新的兩大願景．這個計畫在去年10月18日已經呈報給行政院進行審議．目前正依照國會的意見進行修訂．預計在今年的4月會再次呈報給行政院．"},{"start":3042.091,"end":3064.319,"text":"那第三個部分是申辦氣象數值天氣預報高速運算電腦建設計畫這個是一個延續型的計畫希望能夠建立我們我國有關數位基礎建設裡面高速電腦的相關的部分那這個計畫裡面有四大目標第一個部分是完成高速電腦網路儲存還有增建機房相關的基礎設施"},{"start":3065.239,"end":3084.378,"text":"第二是有效提供氣象模式運作所需要的作業資源第三項開創以人工智慧機器學習以及圖形運算單元為基礎的新世代氣象預測作業技術發展第四項促進我國高速電腦產業發展以及人才相關的培育"},{"start":3086.219,"end":3112.512,"text":"這個計畫是在113年去年11月8日呈報行政院目前正依照國科會的審查意見希望要再加強有關人工智慧預測模式的發展狀況並且對於這個系統裡面有關徒刑處理器的部分進行滾動的修正這個計畫也是預計在113年今年4月裡面再呈報給行政院來做相關的審核"},{"start":3116.437,"end":3133.231,"text":"這個計畫不但在提供我們國家的這個氣象的基礎建設並且能夠來支援我們相關預報作業的模式的進行那在這裡面也特別在提供相關的開創型的開發有關人工智慧機器學習的這個氣象預測模式好 結語"},{"start":3137.691,"end":3159.672,"text":"台灣常有氣象與地震災害並且以氣候變遷的趨勢非常顯著因此氣象與地震資訊的掌握對我國災防作業及民眾日常生活的應用方面皆極為重要且在氣候變遷的衝擊確保災害預警更加準確與及時氣象署持續努力推動多項重要的業務發展計畫"},{"start":3160.973,"end":3178.468,"text":"以貼合各界的使用需求主動提供民眾更有感、更經濟、更細緻的氣象服務並與各界攜手共創給生活好氣象的願景那誠摯期盼各位委員能夠持續給予氣象署鞭策和支持"},{"start":3180.099,"end":3194.165,"text":"為我國建立更安全、更具抗戰性的氣象及地震撤報作業能力降低氣象及地震災害對國家整體精心的影響和衝擊使生活更美好、讓生命更安全以上報告現在要進行懸打來,署長先請回座"},{"start":3209.256,"end":3233.194,"text":"現在要進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":3239.721,"end":3259.057,"text":"中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位徐滬葵委員發言謝謝主席 有請陳署長請陳署長"},{"start":3273.289,"end":3289.398,"text":"委員好 署長早安 署長那我想您上任的時候有提到氣象署的這個角色未來會進一步強化在支援國家因應氣候變遷的扮演的角色是不是有這樣的一個期許 是"},{"start":3290.926,"end":3311.676,"text":"那我先就教一個問題那我想我們以往各縣市首長最痛苦的一件事情叫做颱風假的一個放假標準這個每次都陷入天人交戰那原因是因為我們氣象署提供的資料往往都是有一個這個邊緣的一個狀況那針對這個情形,署長怎麼看待這件事情?"},{"start":3318.33,"end":3344.412,"text":"好 有關這個氣象預報特別是風和雨的預報跟颱風架這邊的關聯在過去其實做過蠻多次的討論那當然我們知道氣象預報的確沒有辦法百分之百準確不過隨著我們的技術的進步我們的預報的準確度其實不斷在提升那當然對於縣市政府而言在面對這個休假停班停課的決策的時候的確非常困難"},{"start":3344.872,"end":3360.043,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3360.683,"end":3384.431,"text":"連線作業在在停班停課決策之前就會提供相關的諮詢給縣市政府的首長們來提供相關的諮詢那並且在今年其實特別增加一項相關的資料就是有關我們在海在在近海區域的相關的這個風力的預報那因為台灣的地形其實非常的複雜在近海區域的這個風"},{"start":3386.109,"end":3399.835,"text":"所形成的風力狀況和在我們的都會區其實不太一樣的所以在這個部分我們進一步的來提供比較精確的這個不管是時間或者是空間上面的這個預報資訊並且透過跟縣市政府的互動來協助他們來進行相關的決策"},{"start":3405.558,"end":3425.82,"text":"我想這個放假問題不是只有縣市首長這個陷入天然交戰最重要是家長的問題很多家長臨時接到放假通知他們必須放下工作來接送小孩這是非常非常引起很大民怨的一件事情那所以本期希望氣象署針對這個部分是不是可以做一個比較"},{"start":3426.48,"end":3427.22,"text":"謝謝委員關心 這個我們一定持續的來改善"},{"start":3443.308,"end":3461.728,"text":"那我想就是本席也來自我們的國境之南的屏東那以往我們都說我們的農民看天吃飯那現在本席覺得不是看天吃飯是因為面對極端氣候是要看氣象吃飯那所以我想氣象署從"},{"start":3463.05,"end":3472.137,"text":"這幾年的前瞬預算一共分到31億多從這個金額來看也不算少請教署長針對這一筆31億的前瞬預算我們怎麼樣來因應臺灣極端氣候的一個變遷"},{"start":3478.882,"end":3504.222,"text":"跟委員報告目前在前瞻計畫你們的前瞻預算其實一部分是有關地震的部分另外一部分是有關我們高速電腦的部分那有關這個特別是對我們的農民的部分其實我們一直持續加強跟過去的農委會現在的農業部來進行相關合作那主要有兩個重要的工作方向第一個"},{"start":3504.702,"end":3530.788,"text":"工作方案是增加我們對於農業氣象觀測站的設置這是第一個部分因為我們如果不知道現在的狀況根本不用去談預報了那這是第一個部分另外一個部分就是跟我們的農業部來進行合作對於我們全國的作區農業的作區他相關的這個氣象的資料進行更精確的更精確的預報那這個部分"},{"start":3533.289,"end":3551.715,"text":"當然屏東是一個非常非常重要的點那還有其他的縣市也透過跟不僅是跟我們的中央政府也跟我們的地方政府來做互動來提供相關的資料並且也提供給農會來做參考我想你剛剛提到一個重點尤其是屏東縣是我們的農業大縣那因為我們之前在會館的過程裡面"},{"start":3556.336,"end":3578.175,"text":"常常會有提到一個所謂的延遲性災害的問題那針對我們的農業部的一些官員他們也很困擾,非常困擾因為這個極端氣候造成的這個因素讓他們也很難去做直接的判斷那所以說我記得我們在111年有一個研究的文獻有提到說"},{"start":3579.075,"end":3599.588,"text":"關於芒果的產區的部分應該要設立一個未來氣象資料庫的一個規劃那這邊不曉得署裡面有沒有做這樣的一個考量是 這個部分是我們和農業部做合作那芒果是一個非常重要的作物那其實我們目前針對每一種作物它的相關的這個"},{"start":3601.509,"end":3629.545,"text":"的時間比如說開花結果相關在整個的生命週期裡面的各個階段所需要的氣象環境條件都做監測如果他有發現比較不符合他生命他生命環境的相關的條件我們就會提早預警那這個部分相關的預警資料因為是跟農委會合作所以這個部分農委會也有收到相關的資料來提供我們的地方做參考"},{"start":3631.019,"end":3646.017,"text":"署長我想這樣子我們在座很多委員每次碰到農業勘災都非常的困擾也希望說針對這樣子的一個農業災損的一個判斷上面也能夠我們主動跟農業部能夠做一個"},{"start":3647.318,"end":3672.277,"text":"跨部會的一個整合怎麼樣讓我們的農業災損能夠有一個比較完整的一個處理的一個SOP那當然作為我們氣象的一個主管機關來講怎麼樣協助農業部這點要拜託署長這邊要多用心因為尤其這個極端氣候確實會造成農業部的官員相當難的判斷那這部分署長這邊有沒有什麼樣的精進作為"},{"start":3672.978,"end":3692.978,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3693.098,"end":3707.824,"text":"在於不管是溫度、雨量或者是風力達到某一個數值的時候他其實就可以提出理賠的申請那這也是目前我國農業部在主推的相關的方向那我們會提供相關的資料給農業部來做參考"},{"start":3710.066,"end":3727.8,"text":"好謝謝署長那我希望就我們這個一起加油這個能夠把這個農業的災損的部分能夠做比較一個完善的一個處理那另外我最後一個問題就是因為屏東縣有很多這個土石流的高顯示地區我想這個署長非常清楚"},{"start":3728.761,"end":3741.518,"text":"往往會造成我們很多原鄉的一些鄉親有心理上的一個很大的恐懼那針對這些高潛勢的自災地區我們有沒有做什麼樣的一個因應對策"},{"start":3743.29,"end":3770.296,"text":"目前有關自災的高潛勢地區那主要相關的是上游的部分是由我們的農業部的水保署在進行相關的工作那這個部分我們也跟水保署有非常非常密切的聯繫那主要是希望能夠提供相關的正確降雨的資料來給水保署來做有關這個土石災害的估計對啊雖然我們書裡面還是第一線希望能夠提供一些完整資料作為我們"},{"start":3770.876,"end":3771.317,"text":"現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":3795.834,"end":3819.51,"text":"好謝謝昭偉那我們是請陳署長請陳署長署長以後有邀請的時候你再上來好不好不要那麼緊張也是第一次站在這裡是好謝謝昭偉謝謝署長我馬勾一郎來這個先看一張圖片我想要先請教一下署長署長這兩個氣球為什麼不一樣看得到嗎"},{"start":3824.029,"end":3842.781,"text":"看得到然後請問一下這兩個氣球的作用有什麼不一樣下面的看得比較清楚上面比較不太知道下面比較看起來像是就是一般我們這個氣象用的探空氣球因為下面掛了一個探空椅是上面那個看不太清楚它上面是什麼樣的上面這當然是"},{"start":3844.703,"end":3866.919,"text":"這個軍事用的氣球啦,這就是說我們想要了解就是說過去這些這段時間我們常常會看到新聞上提到說這個這個中國大陸中共的這些這個可能是疑似這個這個軍事用的偵查氣球會飄過來這個台灣的上空那有的人解釋說這其實氣象氣球那我想要先請教一下氣象署在這個相關的業務上面"},{"start":3867.539,"end":3892.248,"text":"你們是由你們來判斷他是氣象氣球還是軍事氣球這業務上是你們判斷呢還是是國防部來判斷目前對於氣象氣球的偵測其實我們自己是沒有偵測能力的所以目前相關的資料都是國防部通知我們之後我們再來看他是不是氣象的氣球因為氣象氣球他其實不會飄太久也不會飄太遠"},{"start":3893.228,"end":3918.63,"text":"那它的高度也有一定的高度它就會破裂因為就我們理解氣象氣球一般來講大概就是它是橡膠做的那最高飛行高度30公里左右那飄行一段距離之後它自己就會破掉了自己就下來了嘛那我想問說依照這個氣象的專業或是依照這個風向的專業這個中國大陸如果發射所謂的這個這個軍事的偵察氣球它有沒有可能有沒有機會"},{"start":3920.253,"end":3925.089,"text":"如果純粹是氣象氣球好了,如果是氣象氣球,他有可能飄過台灣海峽來到台灣上空嗎?"},{"start":3926.557,"end":3950.11,"text":"的確是不能排除的那就看這個氣球如果它升到高空比如說剛剛委員其實也提到說會升到30公里的高空升到高空之後它如果沒有破裂它會持續的在漂流所以不過它在漂流的位置因為是非常非常高度非常非常高所以基本上不是在我們一般大氣這個環境的狀態之下"},{"start":3952.911,"end":3980.427,"text":"通常一個氣球如果依照我們過去所知道的相關統計資料的話一個氣球可能二三十分鐘他就會破掉了所以他能夠飄他能夠飄動的飄送的這個距離也不會太遠好署長謝謝我想這個資訊我想就提供國人參考因為我們大家其實都很緊張有時候都覺得說到底飄過來的是氣象氣球還是軍事氣球因為也怕誤會了說這個是軍事或是氣象的問題那我想未來這個個案"},{"start":3981.007,"end":3996.348,"text":"按照署長的意思這種個案的話其實還是依照每一次飄過來的樣態由你們來判斷沒辦法保證說它到底是軍事的或者是氣象用的是嗎是基本資料我想必須仍舊由我們的國防單位來提供我們才能夠判斷因為我們自己沒有偵測能力"},{"start":3997.549,"end":4016.965,"text":"好,署長謝謝,那我想這個我們當然希望說氣象署是一個很專業的單位那提到專業包含說剛剛說一開始的問題之後後續要跟大家討論了這個氣象署當然升格之後但是啊升格之後本來期待的是這個因為你們是專業單位本來期待經費上來講或者預算上跟人事上能夠提供更多"},{"start":4017.705,"end":4037.35,"text":"但是在這個氣象署升格之後過去中央氣象局的時候法定員還有957人那現在升格之後法定員剩下673人這個署長我想問一下對於這個升格你有什麼樣的想法這個升格結果法定員反而下降經費變得更少這個部分你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4039.797,"end":4056.628,"text":"我想這是整個政府主改的大方向希望組織能夠精簡那在過去我們在相關的規定的確是900多人那因為這次在做主改的時候它其實是有一個規定它是依照現有的預算原額"},{"start":4057.608,"end":4084.411,"text":"來加5%變成這個可能的這個相關的這個緣額、機關緣額所以他才會因為我們的實際的預算也只有600多人所以他加了5%之後現在的這個實際的允許的這個緣額的數量的確會大為降低我是為你報不平啊畢竟今天氣象署的專案報告那這個你看到下一頁同樣都是升格啊這個同樣也是在這個這個交通部狹下這個氣象署"},{"start":4086.252,"end":4106.882,"text":"升個之後相對人力變少但是上這個交通部觀光署升個之後他的人力預算增加所以我想這個在預算上面跟人力上面我們還是希望說這個今天提出來之後我們的主管機關能夠給我們這個交通給我們的氣象署更多的人力因為我想這個氣象對於民生問題是非常非常重要"},{"start":4107.842,"end":4121.147,"text":"對於這個不管農業也好或對於地方首長判斷要不要放假也好那這個當然人力下降之後之前我剛剛簡報裡面有提到接下來會用這個所謂的AI的模式來提供更精確的這個氣象報告那我想問的是說"},{"start":4125.128,"end":4142.329,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4142.609,"end":4167.129,"text":"對於整個氣象模型的規劃對於整個氣象預測來講有沒有比過去更加的提升你人是變少但是你要運用科技來解決這個我們也接受了但是用科技來解決這我想問一下這個署長這個氣象的預測包含說其實說颱風之外我想大家很關注的就平常日常的強降雨對地方政府來講他的影響可能更強更大我們這個所謂的最強電腦"},{"start":4168.45,"end":4171.2,"text":"在算的過程裡面有沒有辦法提前預測到這個強降雨的這個狀況"},{"start":4174.282,"end":4201.107,"text":"是謝謝委員關心這個電腦的確對我們非常非常重要那這也是蘇前院長支持在這前瞻預算裡面能夠加入這個電腦那因為這個電腦正好是去年底完成那目前他的這個計算能量我們講說他在這個中央處理器的部分是10個PETA就是千兆的這個浮點預算另外還有他特別有配備了新式的這個繪圖處理器有兩個這個PETA的FLAP"},{"start":4204.088,"end":4223.861,"text":"目前在全世界的排名是第69名在我國政府裡面的確是目前最大的電腦這個電腦是混合式的所以我剛剛特別講有CPU加GPU大家現在比較知道的就是GPU的部分特別對於人工智慧相關的預算它會有非常好的效果"},{"start":4224.301,"end":4252.038,"text":"那當然這裏面相關的預測模式我們在這電腦裏面運行的預測模式並不僅僅是颱風預測模式其實在裏面大概有十幾套的模式在裏面預測好,署長那這個模式這個這個模式的這個怎麼講程式是自己寫的呢還是去參考其他單位就是說這個東西誰算出來的是由我們自己氣象署的過去的模型推算還是說是由其他的這個技術方面來加強"},{"start":4253.939,"end":4281.373,"text":"目前這個模式其實我們採取的是國際合作的方式那一部分是跟美國政府NOAA來做相關的合作那另外一個有關區域模式的部分是跟美國的這個大氣科學研究中心來做合作因為現在模式已經非常非常複雜以氣象署的團隊而言我們不太有能力來從頭做一個模式可是我們對模式的改善可以做很多區域性的改善所以你們這個錢應該要增加那組長我們聽過這個GraphCast這個東西"},{"start":4284.175,"end":4284.195,"text":"最強電腦"},{"start":4301.519,"end":4318.255,"text":"目前因為我們有這個電腦所以去年已經開始評估目前在這個在等於說在科學上有公佈的相關科學論文裡面有提到的是其中之一還有還有好幾個不同相關的這個人工智慧"},{"start":4318.795,"end":4342.38,"text":"基於這個資料科學的模式目前我們都有在做評估GraphCast它的確它的這個效果還不錯不過我也必須要說明它目前只能夠處理我們稱之為縱觀尺度的天氣現象就是比較大範圍的譬如說冬天的封面像這樣子的系統它其實沒有辦法處理小尺度的現象譬如說像颱風的暴雨"},{"start":4342.74,"end":4362.386,"text":"那這個部分也就是為什麼我們需要投入更多的資源來做相關的應用那我們也有兩個計畫在配合剛剛的報告裡面一個是有關氣象風險的治理的部分另外是我們下一代的高速電腦計畫希望能夠在這個部分來做加強發展好 首長謝謝"},{"start":4367.691,"end":4390.622,"text":"好,謝謝黃建豪委員的發言那下一位有請李坤哲召委發言謝謝徐副國會委員現在請陳署長還有林國賢次長次長起來走走啦好,請次長跟署長次長擔任民航局長多年對委員長委員長"},{"start":4397.381,"end":4414.048,"text":"我先請教一下陳署長有關於超級電腦當然這個預算是超過15億也是一個第6代的超級電腦那剛才也提到在2023年的11月底全球的前500大電腦裡面"},{"start":4417.569,"end":4442.364,"text":"那他是排名第69那剛才提到我們相關的區域模式大概可以提升到一公里如果是全球模式的話現在已經可以從25公里提升到13公里剛才委員也有提到我們相關的預測的這樣的一個精準度以及相關的期限是不是可以延後請你再仔細說明一下好"},{"start":4442.944,"end":4463.915,"text":"有關模式的部分的確我們需要改善的部分一個是有關空間解析度的部分這個部分剛剛委員其實已經提到我們全球模式在未來會從25公里來改善到13公里那我們的區域模式會從現在作業的3公里來改善到1公里那這個是有關空間解析度的部分"},{"start":4464.575,"end":4489.941,"text":"另外在時間的長度的部分我們全球模式未來會做10天的預報以及我們的區域模式未來會做7天的預報此外還有一個颱風的模式在未來也會在颱風生成前的期間比如說在熱帶低氣壓的時候我們就可以提供相關預報模式的實效預報實效的確也都有延長"},{"start":4490.701,"end":4510.297,"text":"現在除了超級電腦的運作之外可以大幅的提升氣象的準確度那AI技術的一個進入這對於氣象的相關的準確以及預測也其中更大的一個幫助那當然在AI技術導入部分我們必須要去處理AI的這種"},{"start":4511.678,"end":4530.725,"text":"他的訓練技術的訓練那有相關的AR的模型的這樣的一個訓練我們相關氣象署在這邊進行了狀況來簡單說明一下好我特別跟委員報告一下的確委員問的是非常非常重要的重點我稍微用一個很簡單的概念來形容一下這件事情"},{"start":4531.645,"end":4553.306,"text":"這件事情我們在傳統的數值天氣預報是基於物理科學的模式從1950年開始全世界就在努力那有關有關基於資料科學的模式就是現在所謂的人工智慧或者是機器學習的這些模式是基於資料科學的模式他大概在10年前開始有比較"},{"start":4554.567,"end":4573.764,"text":"的相關論文在發表目前全世界的作業單位還沒有任何一個作業單位運用這個模式來做預報作業所以它跟傳統的模式的部分的確它顯現了相當的潛力可是真正進入預報作業還需要做發展"},{"start":4575.666,"end":4603.531,"text":"那委員剛剛垂詢的這個部分的確也就是因為我們會需要訓練產生我們區域的資料利用區域的資料來做這個相關的訓練因為目前所發布的論文用的都是全球的資料那他的解析度大概也是都是在25公里左右所以他其實不太能夠處理我們區域的問題所以特別需要做區域的這個相關的訓練那也是要加強相關的AI的這種"},{"start":4604.591,"end":4632.999,"text":"模型的這樣的一個訓練加強他的能力另外我們來討論一下國家級警報那當然國家級警報是在2012年因為我看2011年的福島大地震日本的這種國家級警報對於日本的地震的預警能力是有很大的對於台灣的啟示的作用所以在當初我們就要求來設置國家級警報那當然當初還沒有這種"},{"start":4634.079,"end":4634.419,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":4657.978,"end":4672.493,"text":"海南與其是在東部的外海跟南部的外海那東部的外海我們都知道大概地震有7成以上都發生在東部的外海那當初我們分成4起"},{"start":4673.534,"end":4702.216,"text":"這樣的一個海底電纜鋪設因為它能夠偵測相關的地震、海嘯等等那當初這個海嵐的計畫又稱為媽祖計畫三月要搞大家都開始要燒媽祖媽祖就是保庇大家嘛所以這個媽祖計畫當初四期嘛第一期做了之後就被漁船勾斷了從第二期開始我們就加強相關的措施那現在啊"},{"start":4702.836,"end":4717.446,"text":"第三期也已經完成了就是從東部的外海然後延伸到而安比這邊從仿山的中華電信所上岸那我們這幾年一直在推動第四期第四期啊"},{"start":4718.53,"end":4741.01,"text":"原本是要預期2021到現在都還沒有執行而且當初我們所規劃是800公里這對於馬尼拉海溝的這樣的一個地震跟海嘯的預測對於台灣西南部這個是非常重要的一個預警的系統他有6座的海底觀測的系統但是呢"},{"start":4742.148,"end":4767.145,"text":"我們看到目前相關的進度當然碰到COVID-19疫情的影響以及相關的物價的一些飆漲數位通訊傳輸技術的演進都讓這些成本都增加那現在我知道說我們迫於現實已經將800公里修為縮減為200公里這個我非常不滿"},{"start":4770.404,"end":4770.644,"text":"好 嗯"},{"start":4788.453,"end":4812.099,"text":"委員指教的的確是一個不得而為的措施主要是因為我們相關的執行的經費因為我們國際的物價一直不斷的上漲其實在這個計畫過去執行其實已經有8次的流標都沒有辦法標出去所以我們在這整個計畫裡面經過兩次的修改報行政院來做相關的核定"},{"start":4812.699,"end":4819.803,"text":"那的確對800公里變200公里和6個站變3個站這件事情是第4期計畫現在就是從800公里縮減為200公里還是說這只是一個暫時的階段可能還會有第5期、第6期"},{"start":4833.494,"end":4847.166,"text":"目前是縮減為200公里 當然我們其實對於未來的確是有期待的 拖越久成本越貴 是 的確是這樣子 來次長說明一下 我們現在縮減為200公里 那6座的這種觀測站已經減少成為3座了 那"},{"start":4859.329,"end":4867.477,"text":"我們這樣是否有足夠的應變能力就面對地震或是海嘯有足夠的應變能力嗎?第二我們"},{"start":4868.971,"end":4882.541,"text":"可以提供我們民眾即時的這樣一個國家級警報嗎另外我們的原本計畫的這種預警功效會因為這樣的縮減而減損嗎 來署長先說明再請次長說明好減損的確有一點點不過因為我們現在地震的這個偵測和這個預警的能力也提升了所以目前的狀態是200公里的3個站"},{"start":4894.129,"end":4915.704,"text":"目前對於地震預警的時效是我們經過計算大概是14秒對於海嘯預警的時效大概是30分鐘目前的狀態大概是這樣那跟過去800公里的狀態大概在這個地震的預警時效上面大概減少大概10秒之內那對於海嘯預警的部分的確減少稍微多一點就是大概會少了30分鐘"},{"start":4923.609,"end":4925.771,"text":"十秒可以救多少國人在地震時候發生的重大災難這個來次長簡單說明一下時間也到了"},{"start":4945.413,"end":4964.291,"text":"謝謝委員您提的確實第一個就是原來設定的計畫目標跟修正以後是否能夠達成這個我想協商署可以評估檢討一下那第二個就是未來如果有機會是不是找更多的預算來擴充這個計畫這個我們會來協助以上我們會持續的追蹤"},{"start":4974.382,"end":5003.54,"text":"現在請林國成委員發言林次長跟陳署長來因為不要你來,只有坐在那邊也不好委員早"},{"start":5006.608,"end":5028.966,"text":"市長還有署長因為有時候署長有些不好意思講的那當然因為市長是負責在部裡面督導之單位首先我會感覺到我還是要問一下因為最近我們在主改的時候確實在整個人事"},{"start":5029.963,"end":5057.999,"text":"跟整個局、署方面在主改是做很大的一個改變可是這個主改改變當然就是因為該項目的一定會更好或者更多人或者更有經費可是我看過所有局、改、署的當中就唯一看來就只有氣象局轉氣象署啊人員少經費少"},{"start":5061.161,"end":5087.531,"text":"市長來建立擔保局跟委員報告經費沒有少經費他依照原來的有成長但是人力的部分確實他從那個叫編制元額一個是編制元額當委員寫法定元額編制元額部分他是核實以預算元額來加5%我是覺得這一塊對氣象署來講當然各位委員指教了如果人力不足"},{"start":5088.391,"end":5092.533,"text":"現在氣象署局裡面又變成氣象署看起來是很龐大的這種主改請問一下他現在氣象署屬於幾幾單位"},{"start":5105.902,"end":5127.517,"text":"二級或三級?局裡面的也是一樣都三級單位不是 局啦當初氣象局的時候也是三級單位嘛那署也是三級單位嘛所以這個基本上我跟你講我舉例觀光署啊它之前增加100多人它的經費啊成長11"},{"start":5130.672,"end":5143.307,"text":"十一億那就是很奇怪這是氣象署他是一個專業單位他有時候他的疫報可能就是全國的老百姓"},{"start":5144.502,"end":5170.047,"text":"就會跟他生命是有關的養兵千日用在一時不要以為這個單位是沒有用你們就把這個單位講快一點民生暗匠表面上生俗事實上把經費把人員都減掉其實我要給常志做一個參考真的專業單位"},{"start":5171.667,"end":5192.941,"text":"就要跟中央研究院一樣他年年經會增加年年的研究人員增加然後他使用的是高精密的儀器所以這點憑良心講我雖然不是氣象專業但是我們說實在就剛剛我們同仁所問的啊"},{"start":5194.201,"end":5210.373,"text":"你一個預報就可以決定一個政務官或地方父母官決定今天是否上課或是否有什麼氣象的嚴重性這是非常重要所以師兄 剛才我看你坐在那裡久了因為我們11人就叫你去講兩句其實 這個你要幫他們講話不要幫他們講 這個要幫他們講話來"},{"start":5221.421,"end":5247.303,"text":"基本上您提的非常對啦氣象署人力雖然不是非常多但是他的工作是涵蓋非常廣他是專業的啦專業的就一個人一個經會嘛對他專業人力也最強因為博士碩士的比例也相對高那您剛提的全國最強的電腦現在也是只有氣象署還比中研院甚至國家電腦中心都還要強那是最好所以這個是非常重要的事來來來那個陳署長來"},{"start":5250.097,"end":5273.522,"text":"另外一個為什麼我們貴署有一些人才流動力之非常高到最後我們培養出來的氣象人才一不是留在外面的氣象公司就連留到外面的電視廣播公司請問一下來你有沒有找出這個原因"},{"start":5276.943,"end":5277.283,"text":"這跟薪資有關吧?"},{"start":5295.986,"end":5322.971,"text":"他的專業跟他的薪資我講實在的 這都不是你們裡面的人這是我們身為一個民意代表既然要監督你們要馬跑當然要讓馬吃草專業單位本來就有專業的一些薪資所以 署長 我知道你很客氣但是今天林昌志也來讓他知道你們的委屈民意代表當然一定要幫你們講但是有一點"},{"start":5324.393,"end":5330.792,"text":"該罵的我們也會罵這是民意代表的本質所以署長該講的還是要講來另外一個"},{"start":5331.912,"end":5356.094,"text":"我比較納悶的氣象公司跟我們氣象署這個隸屬關係如何因為你們現在就有發生一個問題喔氣象公司所報的幾粒11度但是你們報的是12度這個誤差跟這個連結跟這個負荷的東西到底問題出在哪邊來輸定"},{"start":5359.599,"end":5384.545,"text":"其實我們的氣象法在民國9292年修法你不要跟我講這些你把問題講出來就好你不要浪費我的時間啦拜託幫您講話你又要浪費我的時間目前我們是允許民間自己來做氣象預報所以因為看法是有差那我們是就全國做預報那民間基本上他對特定的區域做預報並且對特定區域提醒你這是已經產生"},{"start":5385.945,"end":5403.147,"text":"我們老百姓對於氣象報告的準確度跟信賴度是有質疑的所以你們要去整合一下好不好好另外一個剛才我們李召集人所講的我們的AI你們的發展是什麼未來的趨勢一定是這樣這第一個"},{"start":5403.908,"end":5428.774,"text":"第二個我們那個海底的新海南計畫剛才已經800又縮到200這簡單你也說明一下我比較有興趣的就是說你們氣象觀察站跟雷達這個部分你們簡單要報告一下現在的進度經費的來源讓我們了解一下"},{"start":5430.251,"end":5449.911,"text":"特別在雷達的部分跟委員稍微說明一下目前我們有水利署在支持所以我們的防災降雨雷達目前還有宜蘭和雲林兩個雷達在今年的雷達站還有雷達裝設今年都會完成那剛剛在前面的報告裡面有提到未來的雷達的部分我們已經申請了金馬雷達的計畫"},{"start":5451.573,"end":5474.08,"text":"然後在國發會那邊的審議也已經過了目前正在依照他們的意見在做修改那為什麼要在金門和馬祖增加這個雷達一個部分是有關它是我們的上游西部的上游因為從台灣看到金門和馬祖的時候雷達能夠看到的已經是在高空的狀態所以在低空沒有辦法掌握所以說一個部分是有關霧的部分"},{"start":5475.6,"end":5498.583,"text":"拜託這個部分AI的發展還有新海嵐的計畫還有氣象觀察站跟雷達這個部分請你書面給我好不好請你書面進度好最後我再一個問題我們大家都知道因為我們這個衛星上空去年發射成功這也沒有什麼秘密"},{"start":5500.4,"end":5519.811,"text":"發射上去也就是我們列封則號上去那這個當然跟電信啊跟觀測啊當然是有關那我們這個雷達發上去以後那到底我們現在到底是我們太空中心這裡跟我們氣象署這裡做什麼連結這個很重要"},{"start":5526.912,"end":5535.258,"text":"是不是請簡單說明一下是我們跟國家太空中心其實有長期合作從過去的福山到現在在營運的福清已經去年發射的滅風者"},{"start":5538.359,"end":5559.967,"text":"那台灣是全球兩個這種衛星的資料處理中心之一那在台灣的部分就在氣象局裡面所以這個部分是長期的跟國家太空中心去合作我們相關產生的太空天氣測報的相關產品也提供給我們的國家太空中心做相關的應用"},{"start":5560.487,"end":5575.392,"text":"好,你們現在在運作的情況也書面給我好不好因為我很關心這個未來是這個氣象署這裡未來發展連結的主要的問題拜託也給我書面好不好好,以上謝謝林委員發言完畢"},{"start":5581.278,"end":5608.423,"text":"先在此先作宣告本日由委員提出臨時提案以本會往例在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理我們將與何欣淳委員詢答完畢後隨即處理臨時提案並與林沛翔委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":5610.148,"end":5636.869,"text":"好,現在請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部林國賢次長請次長東央氣象署陳署長兩位很早次長好兩位喔大家都知道我們現在政府要推動農業保險"},{"start":5638.723,"end":5665.279,"text":"希望能夠保障農民不要在保護農民不要在看天吃飯那農業保險牽扯到第一個氣象預報就非常重要了因為農業保險裡面它有一項就是氣象參數型的保險就你必須要參照政府公告的氣象資料例如你雨量高於多少農民跟保險公司在這個契約約定那麼保險公司就要做理賠"},{"start":5666.658,"end":5693.47,"text":"所以現在政府在推動農業保險有一個很重要的事先工作就是農業氣象站而且不能有死角盡量不要有死角否則會發生實際上有農業損失但是由於約定的氣象站沒有數字或者是數字沒有達到標準而無法理賠所以這個農業氣象站的覆蓋率"},{"start":5694.947,"end":5703.054,"text":"現在我看非常的低兩位看一下我們開始108年設置農業的氣象站當時是50個覆蓋率17.6%其中我搞不懂109年到110年連續3年這個數字一個都沒有增加你為什麼那3年都沒有去架設那個農業氣象站"},{"start":5721.325,"end":5744.882,"text":"再來看到112年到去年為止全部的全國農作物專區的氣象戰覆蓋率只有25%像台南市我們台南市是全國最大的農業區就全國農作區面積最大就在台南台南的氣象戰覆蓋率才27%而已來我請教一下"},{"start":5750.675,"end":5763.008,"text":"為什麼發生這樣子的事情?覆蓋率為什麼那麼低?這的確是在過去的覆蓋率的確非常低所以這件事情我們已經在去年跟農委會當時農委會現在農業部簽訂了一個三年的合作計畫希望能夠讓我們的農業特別是在農業氣象站的這個覆蓋率能夠增加"},{"start":5770.956,"end":5789.171,"text":"因為我們整體臺灣的座區大概有將近300個座區那這個覆蓋率是怎麼計算的呢這是依照農委會來定在座區10公里的範圍之內如果有氣象站的話他是可以接受說這個是在是在他這個氣象站的觀測範圍監測範圍之內那如果是超過的話就沒有所以在這個部分因為經過相當的討論所以在這個部分在去年的就是要增加"},{"start":5800.26,"end":5819.962,"text":"相關的策,策戰來來來個車長看一下,108年就開始推動了這五檔吶,這五檔吶,覆蓋率百分之二十五,四分之一而已啊那你這樣農業保險怎麼推?是,過去推動的速度的確比較慢所以這個部分因為跟公衛會合作,在未來我們會再增加一百五十萬你趕快提一個計畫來"},{"start":5821.86,"end":5842.326,"text":"有目前有一個計畫跟農委會合作計畫那預計幾年3年之內3年之內我們會再增加150站所以至少會到75%再來基本上你還是要希望達到百分之百這樣你才可以達到所謂的依靠農業保險來保護我們農民是不是這樣"},{"start":5845.332,"end":5871.412,"text":"你3年達到75%那後續呢?你還是要再持續推動啦?是,後續的部分我們用兩種方式一個是增加策略另外再來齁先我們常常討論一個問題就是說那民間除了我們中央氣象署或者我們授權的單位機構以外啊所以民間很多在自己做氣象預測甚至公開發布啊"},{"start":5874.711,"end":5900.907,"text":"這樣的狀況 我不知道我們氣象署有沒有掌握這所謂的網路預言家 我給你看一個現在有一個網紅 這個人在網路上很有名氣他就預測3月19日 因為南高屏的板塊下陷花東地區山路塔方 雖然不會有大地震但是可能造成落石雜車 請提前防範"},{"start":5902.728,"end":5929.816,"text":"你知不知道網絡上很多這樣的一個借將訊息的公佈啊是我們有注意到那後來有沒有發生這個這個案這網路預言家喔他還製成他可以事先預測地震他說他可以知道地震什麼時候會發生再來3月19日是在他們這樣的一個公佈啦他完全沒有附上他的資料來源"},{"start":5931.229,"end":5959.549,"text":"那這些人或這些單位也沒有得到中央氣象署的授權我再舉一個例子這裡有一個他公報測試一下雖然說沒有颱風不發文但明天天氣轉涼這樣這樣到底有沒有算亂發布氣象預報有還是沒有網路上類似像這樣的程度深淺不一啦很多啦一大堆啦"},{"start":5960.765,"end":5984.768,"text":"那尤其像颱風,現在颱風季齁到時候今年颱風季就會很熱鬧有些明年颱風的時候因為民眾會關心啊所以呢每一個網紅或網路上的甚至媒體啊它預報的都要越刺激越聳動越好所以只要有一個低氣壓出現馬上就爆了恐怕成為颱風"},{"start":5986.434,"end":5994.124,"text":"每個颱風只要形成了都是什麼穿心台、西北台什麼很可怕 都把颱風形容得非常可怕中央氣象署要不要管這種狀況?這種管不管啊?"},{"start":6001.877,"end":6028.825,"text":"是目前依照氣象法裡面的定義就是對於預報作業的這一件事情他必須要根據科學觀測的基礎來做預報如果他是我們講說他自己的感覺這件事情其實在氣象法定義裡面這不是預報所以我們在法裡面氣象法是沒有辦法管制的那這個部分是看你要不要管不是不能管像那個他可以預測地震的"},{"start":6030.373,"end":6036.319,"text":"如果他真的可以預測地震,我也希望真的啦,那我們就把他請過來就好了,是不是這樣?"},{"start":6036.319,"end":6048.15,"text":"有事我們就請他過來就好了,你就請他來中央氣象署,你就供養在那邊,會不會發生地震,每天問他就好了,是不是?這樣可不可以嗎?"},{"start":6048.15,"end":6053.576,"text":"有些人他會裝法律漏洞,他說未來3週可能會發生地震,大家要小心"},{"start":6055.924,"end":6081.018,"text":"那我也會啊我現在就可以告訴你未來3年台灣會有地震大家要注意可不可以這樣是違法的同樣氣象署在最近5年都沒有裁判判鑑108年到現在網路上五花八門的的那種氣象預報但是在上一次曾經裁判是在107年"},{"start":6082.967,"end":6087.269,"text":"一百零七年有一個預測地震被罰二十萬因為那個人講得太誇張了然後你也曾經開罰過啊你不是沒有法不是無法可管啦我們法律規範是怎樣你知不知道你講一下好不好"},{"start":6100.962,"end":6124.793,"text":"目前的法律規範就像我剛剛講的他是必須基於客觀的觀測資料來做的預測他才是預測另外一件事情的確我們這個宣導要加強因為很多民眾對於什麼是傳播什麼是預報這件事情沒有辦法去清楚的區隔你要抓幾件如果真的有開罰這個才有一些嚇阻作用他們不是不能講"},{"start":6126.033,"end":6127.759,"text":"但是你講得那麼誇張那麼聳動那你資料是哪裡來?你的根據是什麼?"},{"start":6132.072,"end":6160.658,"text":"我們法律規範是要有科學資料根據嘛其實它最明確的就是說除了中央氣象署以及你們授權提供資料的機關或個人員不可以做氣象宣告是不是意思大概這樣子嘛從92年開始是可以允許的可是它要標示它的資料出處必須要明確的寫明如果沒有明確的寫明它的資料出處的話那這個部分那網路一大堆啊大家也沒有標示"},{"start":6162.247,"end":6170.833,"text":"那你要不要管一下而且我跟你講齁 這個都很多人在看齁我剛剛講那個說他可以預測地震那個網紅他有10萬個追蹤者有10萬個人每天聽到預報跡象所以我們不斷的呼籲請看官方的預報"},{"start":6185.756,"end":6195.164,"text":"報告委員在災害天氣來的時候我們的氣象署的相關的管道的page view大概是300到400萬對啦就是真的有發生事情每一天好不好是這個不是無法可管啦你要管啦"},{"start":6212.108,"end":6213.248,"text":"謝謝林委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6248.854,"end":6253.011,"text":"好,謝謝主席有請我們林次長跟陳署長陳署長"},{"start":6258.36,"end":6281.15,"text":"委員早組長其實今天我看到好多委員都在幫你們叫屈我本來想說這個終於申訴了其實旁邊我們次長之前也想那個民航也要申訴你們兩個搶來搶去對不對次長你有跟我抱怨嗎我看現在沒申也好如果是這樣的話但是我是覺得"},{"start":6282.27,"end":6305.37,"text":"委員幫大家叫屈的原因是說因為生屬了大家對你有很多的期待包括不光是委員所有的我相信我們的國民對我們氣象署從局面署一定有一些期待你們自己內部也生屬了你們要做的事情不管是更專業、更多樣怎麼樣跟上我們其實我們現在在我們的氣象署"},{"start":6306.01,"end":6328.938,"text":"在全世界的水平那天跟你聊過算還是不錯的但怎麼樣再精進所以我們真的是希望社長在這裡部長今天不敢來是怕我們要預算這樣回去氣象署真的在明年人力跟經費我認為都要增加為什麼呢交通部這麼大"},{"start":6330.467,"end":6330.627,"text":"世界經濟論壇"},{"start":6345.518,"end":6346.039,"text":"全球10大風險全球10大風險全球10大風險"},{"start":6361.161,"end":6387.382,"text":"有關的包括了極端氣候事件地球系統發生重大變化還有生物多樣性的喪失還有我們生態系統的崩潰其實我發覺跟我們很多來源自在氣象這個都很重要所以我覺得有時候人定勝天在氣象這個部分有時候大概勝的不多但是我們要怎麼樣去預測"},{"start":6388.763,"end":6408.948,"text":"怎麼樣去預防這個部分我想中央氣象局申署之後應該帶給大家更多的一個期待。師長未來十年全球十大風險你覺得我們氣象署可以做哪些方面?"},{"start":6410.853,"end":6430.863,"text":"其實有兩大方向一大方向是有關氣候變遷的因應怎麼樣來協助我們的國家我們的政府和社會來面對氣候變遷掌握氣候變遷的相關的風險那其實氣候變遷其實也帶來機會所以這個部分如果能掌握的話它其實也可以創造效益這是有關氣候變遷的部分"},{"start":6431.343,"end":6449.728,"text":"另外一件事情就是災害天氣那災害天氣的預報因為台灣的地形的確非常的複雜所以災害天氣的預報它的解析度、精度會需要持續的增加那這也是在氣象署在未來十年工作裡面非常非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":6450.268,"end":6472.384,"text":"那我們在去年完成了我們的高速電腦的建設之後那我們可以把我們的這個預測模式能夠全球的部分進到13公里區域的部分進到1公里我們未來在10年之內的我們的計畫就是剛剛其實有報告我們新提出來計畫在未來會讓我們的模式進入到次公里級"},{"start":6473.345,"end":6473.485,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6493.748,"end":6519.356,"text":"這個機器進來了齁算力增加但是專業能力啊因為投進去的參數還是要靠人所以我們也希望在區域每個區域都不太一樣所以我們希望能夠在你的專業能力加上你算力整個提升讓我們中央氣象局深屬的能夠實際展現就如同你剛剛所說的區域範圍縮小精確度增加讓民眾能夠感受到那我們也特別看到齁"},{"start":6520.496,"end":6545.898,"text":"這個以前真的在早年那個氣象就感覺每天要不要打傘衣服要多穿一件還是少穿一件但是現在的氣象遠遠超過當時的想像現在不管是企業的安全社會的安定甚至國家的安全我覺得都跟氣象有關那這個部分我也看到在台積電他自己的企業評估因為他是世界級的"},{"start":6547.799,"end":6567.711,"text":"世界級的工廠公司各區塊他投資的時候他都有非常這個精確詳細的他相關的他災損評估跟氣候相關的這樣一個報告但這一切的來源都是我們氣象單位你提供專業精準的基礎數據這個很重要你們基礎的數據專業的數據提供很多的產業能夠運用所以在7月的"},{"start":6574.215,"end":6595.433,"text":"一個安全企業的投資包括工程單位太多單位要你們專業精準的這個基礎所以你剛剛在說在未來有這樣的申訴之後有這樣的設備加能力你覺得對於我們更專業這些基礎的資料你有沒有信心能夠持續的提升"},{"start":6596.554,"end":6609.366,"text":"是這些設備和技術的發展對我們非常非常重要也感謝過去除了交通部在對我們的支持之外國科會對我們也非常的支持所以在特別在氣候變遷這個議題上面我們是跟國科會的有一個叫TCCIP的計畫在合作提供臺灣有關氣候變遷從過去現在"},{"start":6618.274,"end":6641.532,"text":"和未來的相關的狀態並且做氣候風險的相關的評估那這個部分也在我們的氣候邊界因應法裡面第三章特別有在規範相關的工作所以這個部分會持續進行那有關TCFD的部分是我國金管會在推動我們綠色金融裡面一個非常非常重要的部分那目前全球都非常非常注意這個有關TCFD的運用因為它是氣候風險的財務揭露所以任何的"},{"start":6646.015,"end":6647.516,"text":"接下來剩下一分鐘我想請教一下次長"},{"start":6668.709,"end":6682.614,"text":"那個3月3號我們這個桃園機場這個發生了因為難跑到稅休嘛造成很大的一個困擾那當天的這個王國哉部長說兩週內"},{"start":6688.176,"end":6710.664,"text":"兩週內檢討懲處該賠償就賠償算一下兩週到現在目前你們怎麼處理有沒有懲處有沒有賠償報委員我們大概上禮拜都一直在討論那這過去兩天夏日好奇公司跟民安局還有我們部里也一直在就這件事情所以懲處名單出來沒有已經有建議那目前還要再做綜合考慮"},{"start":6711.644,"end":6737.96,"text":"那賠償問題呢?賠償基本上是我們進行評估我們現在是淘氣公司直接跟航空公司要求說請他們就旅客所反映的部分先收集那收集的部分旅客的部分您知道一般還有旅客不便險跟航空公司因為從7月他們會先去處理那第二個呢航空公司跟機場之間的我們另外會跟機場今天本來要問王國才部長本人啦他本人那你代答反正也不太準齁"},{"start":6738.88,"end":6759.973,"text":"那其實那天我們去針對這個問題我們去淘汰公司我們也上了塔台那我們知道專業人員他那天特別有跟我們報告說其實總量的管制比當天流量的管制塔台你要進來流量怎麼控制一台一台怎麼在安全的距離能夠起降"},{"start":6761.534,"end":6785.731,"text":"但是你總量如果沒有管制的話他根本消耗不了所以總量的管制我是覺得你們絕對要提前好幾個月就公布這個飛航公告說要修繕什麼這樣的航空公司才能夠在第一階段還沒有收到客戶的時候能夠做減班那這個部分你們到底有沒有去做跟委員做個簡要說明"},{"start":6787.152,"end":6799.205,"text":"整個的計畫跟一般輸運一樣航空或是任何計畫都一樣計畫性的作為應該要把各種可能的方案都提出來相關的方案對營運的影響對航空公司、對旅客、對營運的影響要評估出來"},{"start":6803.109,"end":6821.845,"text":"平衡完以後呢協調相關單位配合可以執行再回饋到施工計劃來決定那這個部分我們認為需要檢討好了改善了這樣啦我的時間到了麻煩你提供個書面到底未來怎麼決定方案給我們交通委員會每位委員好不好好謝謝"},{"start":6824.227,"end":6847.415,"text":"好,盧委員發言完畢．現在請何欣淳委員發言．何欣淳委員發言完畢之後．我們禁止臨時提案的處理．並於林佩祥委員發言完畢之後．休息10分鐘．現在請何委員發言好,謝謝主席．昆澤召委．我們請．氣象署先來陳署長"},{"start":6856.266,"end":6873.782,"text":"陳署長,氣象其實是一個非常專業、非常科學的一件事當然科學裡面有它的不科學因為現在氣候變化實在太大了但是我們人民生活當中還是最依賴氣象"},{"start":6875.644,"end":6893.467,"text":"報告預測我每天要來台北開會之前我一定會打開google先看一下今天台北的天氣我用這樣子來開始告訴說我們的氣象的預報或者任何天災的預報對人民的生活是最重要的是最重要的所以呢我們"},{"start":6894.898,"end":6918.028,"text":"看到我們花了15億有一個超級電腦更新設備很高興剛剛你回答李昆哲委員在回答他把超級電腦我們更新了之後現在可以做到如何我聽了我也覺得非常肯定也覺得說這是一定要投資的那但是呢超級電腦更新投資了之後一切就會變得更精準變得更美好嗎?署長"},{"start":6920.956,"end":6947.866,"text":"當然不是只有硬體軟體的部分也需要其實除了軟體的部分之外還有相關的人員部分以及我們的傳播力因為所有的資料跑出來的數據還是要透過人來做精準的判斷或是經驗值的累積來做判斷所以第一個我們投資設備第二個要投資人那所長你認為你現在署裡面的專業人才夠不夠"},{"start":6948.766,"end":6975.796,"text":"或者是說臺灣在這一方面的培訓的專業人才夠不夠以政府組織來看因為我們的政府組織是小兒人的政府不過我們的民眾對我們政府的期待是很大的政府那為了要滿足民眾的期待其實我們目前其實透過不僅僅是這個交通部也有國客會相關的計畫的支持那我們在大量運用民間的資源"},{"start":6977.116,"end":7005.87,"text":"那有關資訊的部分其實有跟民間常常合作另外還有我們的學院單位其實也扮演相當相當重要的角色在這個部分去做相關的這精進發展那除了我們民間的部分還有一個部分是國際合作因為氣象預測的這件事情它要能夠進步其實是透過整個國際的合作並不是只有區域的進步區域的進步只能解決區域的問題可是因為我們的天氣系統都是從外部進來的"},{"start":7006.77,"end":7032.595,"text":"如果我們對外部天氣系統的掌握不足其實在內部進到這個台灣的區域之後他的預報的準確度也會降低所以這需要同時來進行那相關的部分的確人的素質非常非常重要不僅僅是在署裡面的人力也包含我們的心血就是我們的學研單位怎麼去培養我們相關的人力以及我們的氣象產業的部分"},{"start":7033.318,"end":7057.861,"text":"我為什麼會問這個問題第一個他是關心人的生活最密切關心的是氣象還有各種天災的預測因為我有爬出到這個媒體曾經報導過之前我們有兩次的這個地震的一個預測是有一點失靈的那我看到那則新聞我就馬上想到第一個當時的氣象署是回應媒體說這是系統上的誤判"},{"start":7059.063,"end":7062.578,"text":"那系統本身是硬體會誤判的是誰?"},{"start":7065.202,"end":7065.443,"text":"為什麼會這麼關心氣象署?"},{"start":7089.998,"end":7114.47,"text":"的這些事情因為呢氣象署是能夠更進一步的需要跨部會的合作因為呢全台灣甚至的區域合作的有關氣象天災大家都想到氣象署所以你們要扮演一個很重要很重要很關鍵的一個角色我接下來就講說你們要跨部會因為我知道交通部觀光署跟你們有一個MOU你們要跨部會"},{"start":7115.57,"end":7140.718,"text":"這個在生活中的應用很好雖然這個平台我剛剛早上試了一下有點卡卡那個我覺得氣象署跟觀光署你們自己去檢討啦在交通部次長你可以督促一下第一個這個生活應用的這個觀光氣象的水選平台到底好不好用到底夠不夠生活化符合一般人的一個習慣跟需求"},{"start":7141.698,"end":7164.621,"text":"第三個 這個使用率到底高不高 我常常看到很多政府部會弄了很多APP但是使用率不高 因為也沒宣傳也沒多少人知道 那我之所以點出這個是說氣象署重不重要 很重要 氣象關係的生活 我們要更應用更生活化 那前提是什麼 要精準"},{"start":7166.904,"end":7187.798,"text":"也不能說我們台灣的氣象預報沒三準我剛剛講的是地震的一個預測失準就被人家拿出來說了嘛那我們也應該要檢討那氣象的預報當然也希望更精準、更生活化使用讓人民的使用更高更信任、更信賴"},{"start":7189.747,"end":7200.917,"text":"甚至認為說我們氣象署的氣象預報真的是權威中的權威所以我覺得這個是我在提醒除了跟氣象署簽MOU還有跟其他哪些單位簽MOU"},{"start":7209.122,"end":7218.19,"text":"目前氣象署有跟25個中央和地方政府簽訂了MOU除了25個中央和地方相關的政府機關之外還有16個防災相關的學研單位以及民間的產業"},{"start":7228.018,"end":7229.5,"text":"有簽MOU跟沒有簽MOU的差別在哪裡?"},{"start":7246.602,"end":7261.4,"text":"有簽MOU就是代表雙方有更高的意願我們可以坐下來真正去討論深度的應用讓氣象資訊能夠協助相關政府單位去做決策而不是一般型的氣象資訊"},{"start":7262.781,"end":7263.682,"text":"那一般型的氣象資訊"},{"start":7293.241,"end":7318.253,"text":"我只是在點出說如果ChainMOU可以更高強度的應用的話合作的話那我覺得我們應該積極的去擴展因為呢我們在各個縣市也好或是其他公部門也好都需要都需要我再點出一個因為我時間不夠我為什麼會再點這個因為呢軍民合用的機場"},{"start":7320.864,"end":7329.899,"text":"軍方他有他自己的氣象連隊所以他負責這個軍民合用機場的天氣服務你們沒有跟他簽他也沒跟你們簽"},{"start":7331.266,"end":7356.862,"text":"所以呢我是認為我知道在純民航的這個機場裡面民航局這個是我們次長的專業民航局有自己的一個獨特的單位特別的單位專業的單位在負責這個氣象但是民航局有跟氣象署來簽MOU所以是高強度的合作跟應用"},{"start":7358.423,"end":7359.284,"text":"市長您要不要回答?"},{"start":7388.703,"end":7412.923,"text":"因為這個跟民航跟機場有關係這次長的專業我昨天在看這資料我也覺得公路局也沒有所以其實不是簽MOU才有合作各位記得我們早期在公路劇烈簽後那個上下游的封路跟管理早就有合作計畫所以可能我們要考慮的是氣象署會行政協助各單位"},{"start":7413.624,"end":7442.543,"text":"但是簽MOU似乎不是必要啦因為您提到的很多單位已經有合作計畫或是行政協助所以市長我覺得你應該是協助氣象所去盤點嘛其實氣象的各項的資料他要應用的在生活的每個層面幾乎跟各個部門都有關係所以要盤點一下我覺得如果像市長你講的是不是簽MOU不是那麼重要那又簽MOU又為什麼因為合作計畫有些是已經在執行"},{"start":7444.484,"end":7452.767,"text":"我是覺得應該可以氣象署已經升格了然後氣象署又投資了這些硬體設備還有我們的提升所以我覺得能量應該是可以更強然後去跟其他部會做合作然後甚至各個機場不是一一簽嗎交通部跟"},{"start":7461.109,"end":7462.47,"text":"謝謝 何委員發言完畢 現在處理臨時提案本日既有議案 請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":7492.812,"end":7518.349,"text":"臨時提案一建請氣象署應持續與產官學研交流溝通檢討及盤點氣象法及相關法規修正必要以促進氣象業務健全發展強化氣象科技研發開創氣象服務完善氣象產業與人才培育環境並於一個月內將該報告送立法院交通委員會提案人委員蔡其昌等宣讀完畢"},{"start":7521.001,"end":7528.448,"text":"好,現在請交通部做說明請署長"},{"start":7537.782,"end":7564.964,"text":"就是相關氣象產業的相關的發展的部分那其實內容也相當多那稍微很簡單說明一下我們從兩個方向來進行第一個方向是怎麼樣來營造我們氣象產業相關發展的環境所以李主席那個首長我只是問你時間你不用把鐘錶製造的歷史在這邊做說明那這個部分我們會在一個月之內以說明的報告來送交這個我們的交委會"},{"start":7565.404,"end":7589.636,"text":"好那各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見那照修正通過好現在處理提案處理完畢如有委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報那林國賢次長也在這邊他也擔任過民航局長"},{"start":7590.97,"end":7591.751,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,我們現在繼續請陳素悅委員發言"},{"start":7619.437,"end":7623.119,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請氣象署陳署長請陳署長署長早安我們知道現在全球的這個氣候變遷所產生的極端氣候的現象這個頻率越來越高所以各領域對於整個氣象的這個資訊的一個需求"},{"start":7647.991,"end":7675.945,"text":"也越來越高因為畢竟這個集團氣候對於人類社會或者是這個經濟都產生非常大的一個影響跟衝擊所以各個領域也希望透過這個資訊的取得來有所預防這個做這個氣候風險的一個管理所以那本席有看到就是說我們氣象署有建置這個氣候的一個資訊平台就是氣象資料的開放平台我先請教一下我們這個平台是什麼時候建置的"},{"start":7678.925,"end":7692.428,"text":"這個資料開放平台其實在105年已經開始建置然後陸陸續續的增加是那我們目前這個平台啊所提供的資訊已經是我們所有氣象署所有的一個資訊嗎這個完整性如何"},{"start":7693.458,"end":7720.479,"text":"因為它是開放資料所以它並不是所有的資料因為有些資料其實非常需要比較深入的一些氣象技術所以對於那些比較需要深入的氣象需要深入的氣象技術的那些資料目前並沒有放在開放資料上面不過開放資料上面目前已經提供了7大類總共有529項的相關的資料那在每個月"},{"start":7720.979,"end":7741.785,"text":"所提供的這個資料的存取量其實是超過1億次所以在提供我們相關的民間還有產業界的應用存取事實上非常大量可是對於尚未開放的這些資料我們採取的是合作的方式來做進行那這個部分以後有可能開放嗎?"},{"start":7744.418,"end":7763.645,"text":"會 那我們其實在去年應該說前年推出了我們叫稱之為氣象資料氣象資源創新試用方案它其實是一個這個Sandbox的概念希望能夠進一步的來協助我們的民間產業界來用這些資料那因為這些資料比較複雜"},{"start":7764.645,"end":7780.062,"text":"所以他怎麼樣去使用會需要跟民間的產業去做相關的互動我們也期待透過這個氣象資源創新試用方案未來能夠identify能夠更明確的知道說到底哪些資料我們會適合開放給民間來做應用"},{"start":7783.926,"end":7794.641,"text":"目前資料開放平台使用的人有沒有去做過統計目前的功效如何成效如何我們有去做過評估嗎"},{"start":7797.009,"end":7826.378,"text":"有目前我們提供相關的這個相關的使用對象其實我們是採用會員制我們目前的客戶大概有8萬多的8萬多人那其實當8萬多人他不是都是很活躍的活躍的這個客戶大概是1000多每天每一天所下載的資料量剛剛有稍微報告大概是大概是1億次左右每個月每個月平均下載量大概是1億次左右"},{"start":7826.932,"end":7850.817,"text":"是我想這個氣象資料當然就是也有很專業性的一個部分可是對一些民眾來說他們也是希望取得跟他們生活上息息相關的一些資料然後所以這個資料的一個完整性跟準確性就非常的重要那剛剛聽署長的報告這個完整性應該是已經應該有九成"},{"start":7851.557,"end":7869.905,"text":"左右的這樣子的一個完整性那在準確性的方面我想就是這個也是我們氣象署一直在努力的一個部分那我們也看到今天的業務報告裡面你們有提到就是說在這個高速電腦第6代的高速電腦啟用之後未來你們也是會再啟動這個"},{"start":7872.006,"end":7893.448,"text":"第7代的這個高速電腦的一個計畫我想這個就是希望在整個未來氣象的一個預測上能夠更精準那其實本期自己的一個體驗就是在目前這兩年我發現我觀察到我們氣象在對於豪大於的預測的準確度我覺得是蠻"},{"start":7894.248,"end":7923.237,"text":"準確度蠻高的包括在什麼時間什麼地區大概是降雨量大概會多少我想這個對整個災害的預防是蠻重要的當然我們也是希望就是說在未來第7代高速電腦建置之後這個氣象的預測能夠更準確我想再請教一下署長就是在未來第7代高速電腦跟第6代的差異差異會在哪裡"},{"start":7925.26,"end":7944.117,"text":"主要的部分是算力的差異了當然還有一個很大的差別因為目前在氣象署內部的空間已經沒有辦法來承載更大的計算能量所以在未來我們的計畫目前正在報請行政院核定中"},{"start":7944.938,"end":7959.741,"text":"那會自己建立一個機房因為這些機房比較特殊不是一般的這個民間的這個我們講說IDC他能夠處理的譬如說他的冷卻系統需要特別他的樓板高度需要特別"},{"start":7960.202,"end":7983.98,"text":"它的這個承載力需要達到每平方公尺兩噸的這些所以它會需要一個特殊的機房目前大概只有我們國家的國家高速電腦中心有類似的機房設備所以這個部分我們會需要去自建機房那當然除了機房運作的環境之外有關計算能量的部分也會再進一步的提升"},{"start":7985.147,"end":8005.948,"text":"我看到這個第7代的高速電腦我們是預計是9年的一個期程那經費也高達了73.54億所以這個計畫你們是預計應該是下個會期就會提出這個預算規劃嗎是目前正在申請中那期待我們期待在今年可以獲得這個行政院的核定"},{"start":8006.638,"end":8031.779,"text":"是,好,我們也是希望就是說在這個氣象的一個預測上能夠更準確然後也能夠提供我們國人的一個使用各領域的一個使用,達到這個災害預防的一個成效以本席這個彰化縣是農業大縣所以我也是比較關心的有關這個農業災害的一個預防這個氣象的一個預測"},{"start":8032.9,"end":8039.726,"text":"目前有關這個農業氣象站的一個設置我們在彰化縣有多少數量?詳細的數字我們平均的狀態大概一個縣裡面大概有30幾個自動站那在彰化縣裡面的農業氣象站的數量我可能要稍微查一下目前其實並不多彰化縣裡面應該是大概4個"},{"start":8060.29,"end":8085.138,"text":"我的印象對詳細的數字我可能要再查一下是那今天的這個業務報告裡面你們有提到就是說未來的一個工作重點就是在114年要預計完成的觀測系統你們會再增加那在未來你們要持續增設的這100座的自動氣象站有沒有規劃在彰化縣就這個部分再來增加有"},{"start":8085.678,"end":8100.613,"text":"那在今天的報告裡面前面的那個部分其實是一般的站那對農業氣象站特別我們這個報告裡面特別有講到在未來會再增加150站全台在彰化縣裡面會增加大概5站左右"},{"start":8101.353,"end":8101.373,"text":"午戰．"},{"start":8118.182,"end":8134.607,"text":"這個農業部也有在就是112年簽訂了這個農業氣象資訊服務及應用合作協議那這樣子的一個協議簽訂之後目前這個資訊的話一樣是在我們的氣象署可以看得到還是在農業部"},{"start":8137.292,"end":8158.642,"text":"這個資訊在氣象署的相關的網站以及在農業部相關的網站還有APP上面都可以看得到因為是雙方合作那我們用更多的管道把這個資訊傳播出去那除了基本的資料之外還有一個很重要的部分是透過農業部的農民學員跟地方的農會"},{"start":8160.143,"end":8167.815,"text":"去做合作那也在說明說怎麼樣去運用這些資料來對地方相關的農事來提供更好的訊息"},{"start":8168.915,"end":8191.409,"text":"對就是資訊的提供之外我覺得這個如何運用就是一個重點就是因為畢竟這個農民有的他也不知道要怎麼去運用這個資訊所以相關的資訊的一個就是公佈或者是就是讓農民能夠知道這個部分也是非常重要所以這部分也希望我們氣象署跟農業部這邊能夠再密切的配合"},{"start":8192.205,"end":8217.537,"text":"是,我們繼續努力好,謝謝好,謝謝陳委員：發言完畢現在請林佩祥委員發言請林次長跟陳署長上台請次長跟署長"},{"start":8225.189,"end":8249.198,"text":"市長、署長本期將認為說在現在的這個氣候變遷上面我們看到的豪大雨或即降雨其實遠比我們現在常看到的颱風來的有威脅的多那我就想請教署長您這邊有所謂的資料有甚至過去30年之間以10年為間隔30年之間的資料針對豪大雨發生的機率跟它的降雨量嗎?"},{"start":8251.533,"end":8271.969,"text":"目前我們跟國科會有個合作計畫特別對於歷史發生的相關的資料都有相關的研究的確在目前就是一年豪大雨發生的次數或者天數我們講說比較大的大雨發生的天數大概是100天左右"},{"start":8272.809,"end":8292.749,"text":"那這個部分會未來隨著我們面對的這個氣候變遷的情境狀態未來的狀態大概是這樣就是我們的降雨日數強降雨的日數會稍微增加可是小降雨的日數會稍微減少我想知道的是你們有沒有掌握到所謂的趨勢就是說過去十"},{"start":8296.032,"end":8323.13,"text":"從1990年到2000年從2000年到2010年到2010年到2020年他們所謂一般來講雨量或許有增加或許有減少但是強降雨的趨勢因為本席會認為說我們自己每個人在生活當中總覺得這種強降雨的機率越來越高天氣越來越熱強降雨的機率越來越高但是我們蠻需要一個客觀的data跟我們講說這像這樣的事情是不是在發生那發生的時機在什麼時候"},{"start":8326.932,"end":8345.4,"text":"我們手上其實有具體的統計資料從概念上來講就是就降雨量而言全年的降雨量它其實它的變化並不明顯就是說雨沒有比較特別多一點可是降雨日數會有差別相當明顯的差異就是強降雨的日數會變多"},{"start":8346.781,"end":8367.31,"text":"若降雨的日數變少他的意思就是我們的降雨量會更集中所以就是符合我們一般現在認知的就是極端化的概念就是他的頻率和他的發聲他都會加強像現在這樣的現象就跟你們從12月到14月講的不管是所謂的氣味風險數位治理計畫還是所謂申辦所謂的數值天氣預報這個高速運算"},{"start":8375.653,"end":8396.831,"text":"運算電腦這都是未來你們很重要的業務那因為我們只有從過去的data才會知道未來的走向那這方面來講本席希望說你有一個報告出來而且你可以跟本席跟所有人講說那您認為像這樣的事情就可以證明的所謂的這global warming所謂的全球暖化對於對於台灣是有事實上在的威脅嗎"},{"start":8398.092,"end":8403.44,"text":"是的確是這樣那這兩個計畫其中有很大一部分也是在希望能夠加強我們對於這個"},{"start":8406.144,"end":8427.623,"text":"天氣更趨劇烈的預報能力的增進當然除此之外其實也不僅僅是降雨在臺灣的增溫也是相當的明顯好 謝謝署長再來是我想請問一下在第4頁有講到雙雙2022年開始你們跟雙北有在做所謂有在做所謂的事辦溪水暴漲預警這跟剛剛我們講的豪大雨是絕對有關係的"},{"start":8428.684,"end":8449.8,"text":"然後在2023年開始你們於十縣市從19個所謂西流區來擴大事辦那我想請問一下就是說第一點就是擴辦的成果怎麼樣當然你們上面寫的比較籠統一點我想知道直接的反映時間還有你們所謂的擴大事辦的area就所謂的面積的這個所謂的"},{"start":8453.203,"end":8462.109,"text":"西流區的面積還有就是還有還有就是所謂的你們跟之間能這個辦好之後跟地方政府之間的溝通是如何"},{"start":8464.631,"end":8480.22,"text":"委員問的非常非常重要的問題因為這一個有關溪流的降雨預報是由氣象署來發布特別是在山區因為它本身就是個挑戰因為它下雨的區域和發生氾濫的區域時間上有時間差"},{"start":8483.462,"end":8483.842,"text":"請問署長10縣市裡面有包括基隆嗎?"},{"start":8511.412,"end":8535.096,"text":"基隆沒有在裡面請問署長您知道大武倫跟深奧坑溪是常態性的每年都會發生淹水嗎?基隆的地勢基本上來講基隆的地勢是只有山跟海而已所以說相對比較起來大武倫地區從2017年開始每年都會遇到淹水的困擾因為每年都有強降雨的事情"},{"start":8535.496,"end":8555.141,"text":"而且另外一方面基隆市在於東岸的深澳坑溪也是地勢效率高的地方但是每年也都會淹水請問你們有針對這兩個地方甚至廟口區域甚至基隆最低窪的地方都可能因為海水暴漲導致說廟口基隆市最精華的地方所造成淹水請問你們有掌握到這些資訊嗎?"},{"start":8556.639,"end":8571.817,"text":"我們開會的時候其實是有交基隆市政府一起來那就是在討論的過程裡面他們覺得是不是他們有有能夠準備好做一起再做事辦的相關的工作因為他他會他其實會這個壓迫到"},{"start":8573.999,"end":8602.892,"text":"到地方政府的這個防救災的相關的能力我認為這一點來講中央政府市長在這邊我認為在這邊你們必須把基隆納入考量而且與其說是經費問題倒不說是人命問題基隆市在2017年2017年的時候因為大五輪的淹水已經已經走了兩三個人所以這一點來講而且我不希望像這樣的憾事在本席的選區上面發生我想這件事不只是氣象署需要需要納入考量之外交通部更需要把我我剛剛講的每一字每一句"},{"start":8603.672,"end":8632.944,"text":"把他納入會議記錄並重新分辨列預算好我們再來找基隆市政府來加強這個部分好再來我也想請問一下市長都在這邊提到市長了那我想請問一下市長我問一個跟這個的題外話齁最近我們這個點數的問題啊這個交通部因為這個違罪不記點的問題他的費費揚揚那我想請教市長如果一部車因為違規被拖走了他記不記點"},{"start":8635.046,"end":8644.686,"text":"您的第一直覺,如果因為違規而被拖走了,他記不記點?要看他違規的樣態,譬如說他是double parking"},{"start":8645.985,"end":8666.205,"text":"目前違規祭典有幾個樣拍這就是我想要跟您討論的就是說未來我們可能會再繼續討論所謂的違罪是不是有更好的配套措施有更充分的討論才能決定什麼是違罪什麼不是違罪同樣的違停如果你是半夜停在陽明山上沒有停車位的地方"},{"start":8667.025,"end":8684.499,"text":"這個這樣的維庭是不是要祭典是一樣的事可是一樣的維庭你提在台北市政府前面還提在總統府前面要不要祭典這個事情我覺得像這樣的違罪整體來講你們所謂規範的違罪要經過充分的討論而且所謂的配套措施都沒有出來另外一件事就是請問誰能決定祭典"},{"start":8689.264,"end":8715.384,"text":"誰能決定祭典的人不應該是單單純純只是檢舉的人而已應該是這樣子委員您提的很重要我想我也稍微跟您報告一下昨天因為有很多民眾團體反映事實上以行人的安全主義市長我覺得這件事情我直接把我的建議提出來請問第一線執法人員我們是否給他足夠的公權力這個可能不單單純純是交通部的問題"},{"start":8716.084,"end":8736.705,"text":"但是交通部如果說你一個政策出來所有的配套措施應該要完整完整之後你才能做出更好的決策所以本席在這邊建議如果你給第一線執法人員更大的權限來去決定像這樣的違罪違規是否是值得祭典我覺得這樣會可能是對於社會大眾會是比較公平的存在"},{"start":8737.966,"end":8755.863,"text":"委員我再補充跟您報告一下行人的部分因為目前是重點所以不管是行人專用道或是行人不道的設置維艇或是林艇設施的處理還有專用那個叫專用號誌以及我們現在的這個林艇區如何管理"},{"start":8756.423,"end":8779.298,"text":"或者是行川縣沒有出席這個大概都是目前的狀況這是交通部應該本來就要做好的配套措施而不是你現在跟我報告的重要的issue我們會跟我會希望說有個完整的書面報告跟我報告這個案子可以嗎我想這個部裡現在逐步跟跟各單位在討論那現在會提到交委會來做審查審查以後會充分的來謝謝"},{"start":8783.399,"end":8800.185,"text":"好謝謝林佩祥委員發言完畢陳委員有什麼重要的事嗎那出入華委員也在這邊好那"},{"start":8801.98,"end":8813.623,"text":"其實交通委員會是很溫暖的一個委員會上週我在這邊10點半之前陳學生、趙偉就認為要很嚴謹的處理好啦請陳趙偉發言首先謝謝我們溫馨、溫暖的趙偉、溫哲委員請次長"},{"start":8834.079,"end":8862.256,"text":"市長早安首先恭喜您隆昇次長也謝謝次長在民航局局長任內對我們馬祖地方的協助我也代表縣長、議長還有全體的鄉親對您表示感謝國選局長非常優秀所以部長提升你為次長也應該的另外請問一下次長公路局是不是你的業館?"},{"start":8864.144,"end":8875.706,"text":"公路局啊?公路局不是但是我以前有當過路政司長因為剛才我聽林佩祥委員發言講到這個停車的問題我們在全國大概有800、900萬輛的車輛我們停車站有多少?應該遠少於200萬200萬裡面還包含了室內的停車場我所以講說這個空間啊"},{"start":8893.305,"end":8922.652,"text":"克文格市長上任以後把所有停車格的都劃出來了除了停車格之外全部都是紅線紅線就是要開單的意思我們警察也非常的負責任我覺得警察在管治安現在連晚上10點到凌晨都還在開單都還在開單所以這個市長回去檢討一下好不好我想謝謝市長你先請回你上來主要表示對你感謝是不是請一下主席"},{"start":8923.738,"end":8928.322,"text":"請一下氣象署署長請署長好,署長早安,我想你上任以後我第一次對你的質詢請問一下那個最近在馬祖啊你在北甘島、在舉光島成立兩座雷達站舉光的雷達站勒?"},{"start":8950.526,"end":8979.413,"text":"我請問一下署長你們這兩座雷達站的興建他土地的取得都是國產署有沒有跟縣政府做過簡報或是跟縣長報告有縣長知道這個事嗎是知道其實在之前一年以前已經陸陸續續在做相關的報告那我們最近也在安排兩次的行程特別影響到整個都市計畫因為你要怎麼做"},{"start":8980.558,"end":9007.764,"text":"你看你馬祖北竿在板裡斷你做了這個當然設計我看過了是蠻好的是以黑嘴端縫頭硬毆啊黑嘴端縫頭硬毆這個藍圖來做了他面積大概需要多少?你說土地面積嗎?對,他的基地面積多少?"},{"start":9009.343,"end":9010.324,"text":"基地面積現在是20公尺乘上10公尺目前這個雷達站是一個無人的雷達站的設計"},{"start":9031.3,"end":9048.051,"text":"也是一樣都是無人雷達站也是無人的雷達站吼無人的雷達站目前我們在水利署支持的防災降雨欄5座防災降雨欄其實也都是無人雷達站所以相關的無人雷達站的運作有跟阿兵哥的接在一起嗎馬祖馬祖對"},{"start":9056.912,"end":9081.347,"text":"有用到軍方的地就是秦山的營區和馬防部02觀測所的確是在軍方的空因為早上我已經提示你了我會問這個問題我提示你了所以你們的同仁應該要告訴署長告訴署長不要讓署長上台以後有些問題回答不出來那麼他的功能主要是什麼勒"},{"start":9082.859,"end":9106.059,"text":"一個是西平段的雷達主要是針對降雨另外一個是毫米坡的雷達主要是針對霧那因為金馬地區其實霧的情形非常的嚴重我們也希望要加強金馬地區對於霧的觀測所以不僅是降雨也包含一個霧下雨跟霧對降雨和霧它一陣來一陣去你偵測出來對我們地區有什麼"},{"start":9108.223,"end":9112.623,"text":"你會提供飛航的情報還有海上的"},{"start":9113.732,"end":9116.033,"text":"可以告覺使用嗎?對不起"},{"start":9144.281,"end":9169.485,"text":"不讓人家參觀嗎?可以參觀啊,我們並沒有不讓參觀,對那參觀如果有人去破壞怎麼辦呢?那參觀一定是我們有伴隨的參觀那因為目前是無人站的設計所以裡面到未來會有相關的保全系統以及會考慮有保全人員進去不可能,你要人家上去參觀的話,任意都可以進去啊"},{"start":9172.508,"end":9195.142,"text":"參觀的部分一定有我們的人伴隨不會開放任意的人進去參觀是,就是有我們的氣象站的人員馬祖氣象站的人員我們的馬祖有人的氣象站那雷達站的部分是無人所以如果有人要去參觀這個雷達站的部分一定是我們馬祖氣象站的同仁來支援"},{"start":9201.332,"end":9203.194,"text":"主要是地點的尋找因為我們有好幾個地方在討論在什麼樣的地方比較適合設置那當然有牽涉到用地區的"},{"start":9230.946,"end":9253.776,"text":"他是純粹民間用途氣象用途從氣象的觀點來看相關的資料當然他們可以用做氣象用可是裡面沒有任何的軍事用途這個很難講我也不相信還有齁很重要一個問題那個國險次長你可能還要上來一下最近"},{"start":9260.814,"end":9272.139,"text":"大陸啊在舉光那個地方周圍已經很近了齁做風機啊風機什麼就是離岸風電這圖沒有上來齁好圖沒有上來做了幾百根啊齁但是最靠近舉光的那一段齁我聽說是中國鋼鐵標啦齁很大很大喔將來"},{"start":9291.24,"end":9299.628,"text":"我請問一下你是民航局局長出來的那你我們的飛機是從舉光那一方從那邊進場有沒有問題?有沒有影響?"},{"start":9302.833,"end":9322.855,"text":"報告委員資料是還在掌握中目前是馬祖外海的風機地區他叫環境影響評估那其他的部分未來主要應該是航線的部分會影響船的部分可能有些會被調整需要調整"},{"start":9323.456,"end":9346.871,"text":"那高度的部分因為目前還沒有很明確飛機有沒有影響飛機如果有影響必須要調整宜航程序飛機影響會影響到我們南竿也影響到北竿的落地這個我們還在持續掌握中因為高度還不曉得我想這個有機會這個民航局有來備詢的時候我會詳細的問好不好我們有掌握這個訊息但是他還在發展中"},{"start":9347.779,"end":9356.188,"text":"那今天北竿跟菊光的雷達戰對我們的飛航有沒有影響?他的雷達?因為他可以用電波擾亂環喔?他的雷達?應該不會吧?市長你請回,我問那個署長"},{"start":9365.053,"end":9386.426,"text":"你查證一下署長有沒有影響不會影響我們都做過背景的頻率測試那在背景頻率測試不僅是民航也包含軍方相關的頻率不會互相干擾你這個北竿的氣象雷達站跟舉光的氣象雷達站你回去以後行文給民航局"},{"start":9387.503,"end":9405.921,"text":"好不好?新聞給民航局,讓民航局來評估一下有沒有問題,如果有問題的話你們要做適度的修正好不好?不要影響到我們飛機的安全好不好?謝謝主席陳委員發言完畢,謝謝邱若驊委員的體諒,我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9412.324,"end":9412.624,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":9442.79,"end":9457.995,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9462.534,"end":9486.084,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9486.825,"end":9502.018,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9503.319,"end":9522.995,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9531.715,"end":9538.78,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9542.91,"end":9567.534,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9571.079,"end":9572.02,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9596.732,"end":9617.415,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9618.541,"end":9646.476,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9648.507,"end":9678.49,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9680.128,"end":9709.48,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":9709.88,"end":9710.381,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9736.732,"end":9766.732,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9766.732,"end":9794.087,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9794.087,"end":9820.657,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9820.657,"end":9847.944,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":9848.544,"end":9849.245,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9875.845,"end":9894.565,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9895.08,"end":9895.52,"text":"你關心?"},{"start":9915.026,"end":9933.951,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":9933.951,"end":9958.746,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9963.951,"end":9987.09,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9990.207,"end":10003.7,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10035.731,"end":10038.632,"text":"好,我們繼續開會特別謝謝邱若驊委員現在請邱委員發言"},{"start":10052.823,"end":10053.366,"text":"謝謝主席,有請署長"},{"start":10068.316,"end":10081.689,"text":"蘇長在去年9月15號的時候中央氣象署進行揭牌儀式的時候蘇長也表示過臺灣氣象產業發展為其中一項重點工作那也期待透由法治營造氣象產業發展的有利環境"},{"start":10084.131,"end":10102.158,"text":"氣象署已經著手進行氣象法的修訂也提到將在氣候變遷的議題上面還有與環境部還有國科會進行密切的合作也要共同提供我國氣候變遷的基礎科學資訊請問陳署長有關氣象法修法的進度為何還有具體的版本重點為何"},{"start":10105.017,"end":10121.187,"text":"的確這氣象法修法知識體大那因為這次修的確修得比較大所以其實我們已經在前年開始啟動這件事情所以前年的部分我們有邀請這個相關的業界還有學者專家來做相關的這個初步的討論"},{"start":10122.108,"end":10150.278,"text":"去年的時候特別召開了學者專家的這個諮詢會議所以去年已經對氣象法的母法部分母法部分還有我們現在氣象法裡面有八個執法的部分做了初步的修訂今年我們會refine這件事情就是把它做得更完整那因為氣象法裡面在這個修訂裡面特別增加了對促進氣象產業發展的章節所以這個部分呢還"},{"start":10151.478,"end":10180.499,"text":"還有這個相關的儀器的相關的標準化所以這個部分會有新增的執法都會在今年來做那我們預計的時程大概是這樣子4月的部分會有一個出稿那6月的時候會大概有一個定稿8月的時候會有公聽會那希望透過這樣的程序能夠跟在我們的出稿出來之後能夠跟我們的民眾或者是我們的學者專家能夠有更多的互動"},{"start":10181.668,"end":10182.729,"text":"那如何營造對氣象產業發展的有利環境?"},{"start":10191.393,"end":10211.538,"text":"這件事情我們的思考是這樣子因為這個已經成為氣象署了所以他需要從整個國家氣象發展的觀點來看這件事情那在這裡呢其實剛剛前面有別的委員有提到就是氣象署跟我們的氣象產業怎麼去做互動那這件事情我們目前的狀態是這樣子"},{"start":10212.918,"end":10240.087,"text":"就是有關產業環境的部分包含了相關的修法另外一個部分還有加強我們跟產業的互動所以這個部分我們其實在110年的時候也推動成立了就是由我們的民間成立了這個台灣氣象服務聯盟透過台灣氣象服務聯盟來收整我們民間所有的意見那台灣氣象服務聯盟裡面的成員包含了30個團體27個個人"},{"start":10242.608,"end":10261.339,"text":"那裏面他可以去收整所有我們民間意見的這個算是窗口好那這邊提到的是業務那這邊我想請教署長就有關氣候外交因為整個氣候變件帶來的衝擊相當的嚴峻包括地緣政治還有國家領土的完整性水資源還有"},{"start":10262.259,"end":10281.142,"text":"能源、糧食等問題為了要解決這些問題那本席認為氣候外交是臺灣國際社會中參與重要的一塊那這邊要請問首長中央氣象署在氣候外交能發揮哪一些貢獻然後還有光靠中央氣象署進行氣候外交覺得是不夠的要如何跨部會的進行合作"},{"start":10282.345,"end":10298.855,"text":"目前這件事情我們目前已經在做的事情一個部分是跟美國的國家海洋大氣從屬做相關的合作去強化我們有關這個整個的氣候的測報的能力這是一件事情另外一件事情我們在APEC的架構之下"},{"start":10299.375,"end":10317.724,"text":"因為在APEC我們是有full member所以我們在APEC架構之下我們跟韓國因為韓國現在是在全球他是在APEC架構下有一個叫做APCC就是亞太的氣候中心那我們目前是亞太氣候中心裡面重要的非常重要的這個"},{"start":10319.285,"end":10344.602,"text":"算是donate的member就是我們的氣候模式相關的產出是有提供給亞太氣候中心其實去年我們也邀請亞太氣候中心來在台灣開了一個國際研討會大概有10個國家有200人參加在透過這個國際研討會去做相關互動那另外還有一個部分就是不同的國家的部分譬如說我們在國科會的架構之下跟這個菲律賓"},{"start":10345.382,"end":10360.808,"text":"其實有一個叫做vote的這個計畫在這個計畫裡面我們也協助菲律賓提供他有關熱帶地區相關的這個災害風險的相關的資料那也是一個氣候型的相關的資料在提供給他們"},{"start":10361.4,"end":10385.208,"text":"是,署長提到就是災害型的那在業務報告也提到生態素質天氣預報天氣測報的高速運算電腦建設計畫那前面很多委員都有提到那這對於提升極端天氣預報的精準度還有對於防災、雨業、農業、林業、水資源、健康、生活、氣象等都有應用服務價值那今天也提到氣象署會持續努力推動"},{"start":10385.928,"end":10399.258,"text":"多項重要的業務發展計畫貼合各界的使用需求請教署長如何讓這些資料更方便被取得那結合民間的創新能量那廣泛的使用在各產業的領域"},{"start":10401.039,"end":10429.619,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關高速電腦事實上是我們在預報作業的核心所以那個部分要持續加強那有了這個相關的硬體之後我們的軟體的部分會持續的去精進那有關傳播的部分也是非常重要因為相關的預報作業的資料產出之後我們必須要透過很多的管道可以傳遞給民間那目前所有的有除了我們的官網之外還有包含我們的APP"},{"start":10430.439,"end":10452.155,"text":"還有我們的Facebook那並且我們跟這個地方政府去做相關的聯繫那重要的部分就是怎麼樣讓這些資訊能夠被各個不同的領域去做有效應用所以除了跟地方政府聯繫之外我們也跟很多的政府機關去做相關的合作並且也跟我們的產業去做合作OK好謝謝署長這邊有請次長請次長"},{"start":10460.122,"end":10482.608,"text":"市長好,上週三交通委員會考察桃園國際機場那部長也表示在3月20號的時候會提交3月3號桃機跑道稅休導致嚴重塞機的檢討報告那王部長也表示相關的單位都很專業可是確實有大意的情況請問市長3月20號能如期交出檢討報告嗎應該可以我們這幾天都已經密集檢討應該可以好"},{"start":10484.088,"end":10499.523,"text":"那再請教次長那上週五你們依照當天的考察決議送有關就是跑道施工協調會的處理嗎那初步就如部長講的大家都很專業但是有大意的情況那要如何讓各單位都上緊螺絲呢"},{"start":10501.477,"end":10516.773,"text":"這個案子其實很單純工程單位在思考一個跑道的修復分好幾種情況那他必須要判斷說這個工程施作會不會影響到營運因為這是一個營運中的機場他不是一個全新的機場"},{"start":10517.674,"end":10546.409,"text":"那所以提出各種工程方案的時候呢相關的業務部門必須要就對航班的影響以及航管相關配套措施能做到多少先預作規劃這個就是計劃性的作為那當計劃性作為失作以後中間碰到不如計劃運作而不能順利運轉的時候就會有應變所以事實上我們也有應變措施在比如說我們後續的航管跟這個邊邊的這個流量管制"},{"start":10546.869,"end":10547.409,"text":"區委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":10577.913,"end":10580.304,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請氣象署署長請陳署長"},{"start":10592.816,"end":10609.715,"text":"首先對氣象署先表示肯定跟感謝就是之前我曾經質詢就是總統府開放氣象署時間開放時間參觀氣象署是不是可以一併配合也讓所有的博愛特區如果有人去"},{"start":10610.576,"end":10638.174,"text":"附近參觀的話尤其是我們中南部上來的沒有辦法說分很多次可以一次多參觀幾個單位那當時我也要求氣象署能夠開放就是配合總統府開放的時間那現在也有執行所以謝謝氣象署就是能夠在推廣這個教育的時候能夠配合總統府能夠給中南部多一個機會所以這個首先表示感謝"},{"start":10639.375,"end":10652.159,"text":"我請教署長您知道世界氣象日是哪一天嗎?3月21號就是春風的時候3月21號好像日期有記錯3月23號"},{"start":10658.247,"end":10677.425,"text":"你看你自己這麼重要的節日人家環保環境部有世界環保日環境日那海洋世界海洋日那我們氣象也有世界氣象日所以署長連日期都記錯表示我們好像不太重視這樣子一個日子"},{"start":10678.956,"end":10702.697,"text":"那你看各部會都是趁這個自己特殊的節日去宣傳自己所做的事情我想現在的時代光是做事恐怕也不夠要讓民眾能夠認同我們到底做了哪些事所以對於本署、本部所做的事情能夠加強推廣其實是相當重要的一個工作"},{"start":10704.824,"end":10722.879,"text":"我再提出一個是我們中南部我們中南部事實上你看我們南部氣象中心有所謂的氣象、地震、天文、海象這些展示區那我們高雄好像沒有這樣子一個地方可以讓民眾可以參考跟學習"},{"start":10725.796,"end":10746.328,"text":"高雄的部分上次委員特別有提到我們回去稍微統計了一下在過去5年我們在高雄地區的有幾個相關的活動第一個部分是在科公館我們跟科公館合作那裡面有長射的氣象地震的展示的相關的場所"},{"start":10747.308,"end":10765.291,"text":"另外有幾個特別的活動跟這個高雄的大學來做相關活動還有一個比較特別的是我們有在做道校服務在高雄縣市在過去5年我們大概有辦了24場特別是針對偏鄉地區偏鄉地區的教育資源比較稍微缺乏"},{"start":10766.111,"end":10782.104,"text":"針對偏鄉地區做24場的相關的教育活動那裡面包含這個師生的部分大概有1000多人都有參與這個相關的活動這個是簡單跟委員報告所以首先就是跟署長講我們再看這一顆地球其實這一顆地球我看了真的是蠻喜歡的你去看了一次你就發現所有的地殼怎麼變動所有的氣流怎麼流動"},{"start":10795.65,"end":10824.427,"text":"那我就講過以前高中在讀地球科學就是少了這顆地球要不然搞不好要去讀地球科學系那我們希望說能夠多讓民眾接觸跟教學這個科普教育很重要所以你可以看到氣象署跟海科館有攜手合作一個海洋及海象科普教育這個是我們氣象署有進駐到海科館做一些展示嘛對不對"},{"start":10826.137,"end":10843.236,"text":"是的其實也不只是進駐展示還包含了相關的活動也講活動那科工館現在已經很久了對不對可不可以有機會再加強我們最近才跟海科館正式簽一個MOU我就是看到海科館所以我就想到科工館啊"},{"start":10844.812,"end":10868.639,"text":"科工館我們可以再跟科工館去做討論那之前有跟他們做一些討論就除了地震的相關的設施之外那在氣象的部分也可以去做一些加強我們科工館每年超過200萬人次參觀那在高雄真的是南北差距很大那距離又這麼遠所以我一直希望說高雄可以多一些中央部會的資源可以進駐所以"},{"start":10871.087,"end":10885.182,"text":"海科館其實基隆離台北比較近對不對那麼高雄離台北這麼遠那氣象局又升格為氣象署不管是資源還是人員都增加了是不是高雄的科工館可以再多給我們"},{"start":10886.323,"end":10910.977,"text":"一些不一樣的資源或者是再設一個或者是原來的再升級有沒有這個可能是我們來跟客戶公園討論來努力那另外因為我們高雄氣象站其實從漁港搬到這個公園裡面也在討論在未來在這個在都會公園裡面的相關的設施是不是能夠也做一些氣象的展示"},{"start":10911.462,"end":10924.775,"text":"好那是不是在哪裡我們可以研究但是我要求就是在高雄在加強進駐或者是設置至少有這個方向可以讓我們看得到成果這樣可以嗎?是我們來加強給我時間"},{"start":10930.511,"end":10945.084,"text":"我想回去我們可能兩三個禮拜就兩個禮拜好了回去把這個後面的計畫討論出來然後跟委員做報告好因為我們高雄人真的是其實我們號稱看到星星月亮太陽都可以判斷方向對不對也要讓我們高雄人多這個機會"},{"start":10952.85,"end":10964.641,"text":"那另外呢其實最後一點就是那個我剛提到的這個世界氣象日署長以後要更重視啦你知道那個我們有辦相關的活動嗎氣象署"},{"start":10966.252,"end":10994.332,"text":"目前是在我們南區氣象中心針對世界氣象日有辦一個這個就是氣候行動最前線其實是一個科普教育的活動所以就是要多推動嘛因為像我們民意代表現在做事情如果沒有宣傳人家都不知道你做什麼事所以該多宣傳還是要宣傳所以呢我想活動還是要加強那這個活動其實可能我們問了你們國會聯絡人才告訴你說臺南有辦這個活動要不然恐怕連署長都不知道"},{"start":10996.116,"end":11020.983,"text":"所以相關的活動我想科普教育非常的重要也希望說署長能夠多推動這樣子OK嗎是我們來加強那最後再看我們高雄可以看天文的只有一個點對不對在哪裡署長知道嗎很簡單的一個那個望遠鏡瞭望台那個真的是很頻繁在我們蘭子公園那裡"},{"start":11023.027,"end":11046.49,"text":"那個真的是你看台北的天文館一進去那種氣那種感覺就不一樣那我們高雄就在那邊看真的是差很多差很多所以就如何在高雄推動我們的氣象的相關的或是天文的相關的科普教育我希望除了剛才提到的這個"},{"start":11047.651,"end":11072.486,"text":"地點資源的設置跟投入之外那類似這樣子一個活動跟概念是不是請那個署長說2個禮拜這個也一刀思考進去是可以我們來進行可以喔好謝謝了我最重要的就是說我需要看到具體的成果具體的規劃而不是只是一直在研究這樣好不好"},{"start":11083.401,"end":11101.871,"text":"徐委員發言完畢也謝謝徐委員關心三民區科工館的相關議題那跟徐委員做個簡單報告那教育部已經把科工館整體軟硬體的改善已經列為今年三大新興計畫之一"},{"start":11103.112,"end":11121.499,"text":"教育部已經通過現在要送到國會那我們希望能夠盡快的通過讓整個科工館能夠全面的提升他相關的軟硬體以及立美化的設施謝謝徐委員的關心本選區的議題好那現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":11132.756,"end":11133.076,"text":"請次長還有署長"},{"start":11148.066,"end":11149.427,"text":"那面對集團氣候準備好了嗎?下一頁"},{"start":11175.518,"end":11198.588,"text":"因為其實像今天的話大家許多委員區都關心著氣候變遷的問題那這個問題其實我相信不僅是在我們氣象署大家是非常熟悉也非常重視包括次長那您也是成大我的母校橫泰系的教授那您也在民航局當局長那所以您對於氣候變遷也一定是非常的重視"},{"start":11199.528,"end":11227.509,"text":"那在這一次上個禮拜的時候我們交通委員會我跟何新淳委員也跟著副院長來去參加APPU還這一次的會議那討論的議題還是在於有關於氣候變遷那在目前來講中央氣象署我記得在1991年到2002年他其實平均每年有25.3的這個颱風那會清台的大概會有3.2但是呢"},{"start":11228.089,"end":11249.694,"text":"就如剛才林培祥委員所講的單日降雨量在這5年來是不斷的增加所以說包括一些旱災或是農損其實在近年來的話是一發嚴重那同樣的在這10年平均氣溫也上升了1.6度推估在本世紀末夏季的長度將會增加到150天左右冬季有可能會縮短到20到40天內"},{"start":11251.534,"end":11273.976,"text":"所以說在這個氣候變遷造成的影響是非常嚴重那接著叫做救教那在2023年10月5號那行政院核定了災害防救基本計畫有關於氣象的部分三大方針想請教次長那這個部分的話行政院核定了三大方針那您可不可以稍微做一下說明我是請署長好沒關係請署長"},{"start":11275.8,"end":11289.154,"text":"這個我們是在這災害防救基本計畫策略2.1裡面特別對於未來氣象署怎麼樣去面對災害防救的相關的作為有三個部分第一個部分是加強我們監測系統觀測系統的量能希望能夠掌握現在的狀況"},{"start":11294.54,"end":11305.017,"text":"第二個部分是強化我們相關的預報的作為那裡面包含我們的模式解析度的提升以及我們在作業上面怎麼樣去產出相關的災害相關的預警的訊息"},{"start":11309.824,"end":11335.107,"text":"第三個部份是加強我們的互動的互相的溝通就是跟民間以及跟我們的相關的政府相關的單位怎麼去加強相關的資訊的溝通和傳播三個方向謝謝署長那您講的部分是針對氣象署的部分那在行政院的版本它主要三大方針在災害調適、數位轉型及強韌復原三大方針來講它有許多的項目那其中氣象署是其中之一"},{"start":11335.828,"end":11354.208,"text":"那我想問一下在APP我們在提了也提了三個的一個草案那當然說這一次的出訪、出團其實也對我們的國會外交也有一個非常好的一個成果那江啟臣副院長帶隊這一次有很好的成果這是第一次的實體外交那我想就教一下就是說像目前來講國際災害的部分"},{"start":11356.67,"end":11367.625,"text":"那因為我們其實在國際的外交是處於一個比較弱勢的情況之下那相關的通知的機制那目前氣象署跟其他國家有做一個直接的聯繫平台嗎?"},{"start":11369.632,"end":11388.962,"text":"有關國際聯繫的部分我們大概分成其實氣象和地震都有在氣象的部分其實特別針對颱風其實在太平洋這邊有一個聯合颱風警報中心那這個部分是在整個太平洋的這個區域裡面如果有颱風發生他們也會提供相關的訊息"},{"start":11389.642,"end":11408.954,"text":"另外還有一個海嘯的警報中心那海嘯警報中心如果有發生地震引發海嘯的部分那也會國際聯繫那謝謝署長那我接著要請問了那他是會通知直接通知氣象署還是會通知環境部的氣候變遷署"},{"start":11411.812,"end":11428.405,"text":"因為這個是作業面的所以他會直接通知氣象署那所以啊那我想問一下在今天的這個質詢的時候那我想問一下就是那氣候變遷署大家今天討論那麼多的議題那氣候變遷署今天有人來嗎?"},{"start":11431.906,"end":11448.729,"text":"好沒關係目前的這個交通委員會政策名單上那其實是沒有氣候變遷屬那所以說我們現在凸顯到一個問題就是說在機關的部分其實一直以來大家在氣象觀測都非常的仰賴仰中氣象署的一個報導"},{"start":11449.75,"end":11472.684,"text":"那我想要請教一下次長那現在來講在環境部他是新設的這個氣候變遷署但他有讓我們大家感受到這個蝶蟲嫁屋的這個問題因為氣象署他是直接讓大家去做預報可是在這個氣候變遷署他是針對這個氣候的部分他在做研究包括減能減碳或是排碳或者是說氣候變遷以及在國際上的連結"},{"start":11473.684,"end":11489.209,"text":"那這個部分怎麼樣可以讓這個氣候變遷署的這些業務跟我們交通部的氣象署能夠去做有效連結那它是不是跌床駕霧包委員這個其實很重要但是政府之間的工作其實有分工的"},{"start":11490.73,"end":11516.451,"text":"氣象署本身跟氣候變遷署會有聯繫因為氣候變遷署剛成立蔡署長我在民航局長任內也帶同仁去跟他做過交流就航空方面的檢驗檢探跟氣候變遷的部分跟他做交通所以基本上蔡署長那邊是掌握全國各個企業跟各個部會的作業氣象署或是其他部門也各有各的資訊提供"},{"start":11518.192,"end":11546.178,"text":"所以這中間倒是多互動其實我相信一定有互動但是因為在這個民眾我們所第一線的其實還是在於氣候的薄包那包括第6代的這個儀器其實相信這個超級電腦一定也可以讓民眾感受是氣象是有的但是本期在這還是要提出就是說在這個氣候變遷署他是要因應這個全球暖化可是在交通部其實一直以來是主管著氣象"},{"start":11546.798,"end":11575.292,"text":"那所以說在這個部分的話其實他節省價物跟他的平行聯繫上確實會有落差就以今天的委員會為例來講那確實來講那討論那麼多氣候變遷那實際上去交代氣象署但是那個氣候變遷署他其實完完全全是置身事外的那我也坦白講如果說未來像這樣子的一個不管是研究也好那如何能夠再銜接在氣象署我相信這個交通部這邊可能還要再跟黃金部這邊溝通"},{"start":11576.412,"end":11604.122,"text":"謝謝委員因為氣象的部分畢竟有些是micro有些是macro那那個scale氣候變遷署會相對大一點時間尺度也比較長沒關係但是還是第一線會影響到對還是要多互動因為這些資訊要交流好那沒關係就加強這個機制那再來我想接著請教一下TASA國家太空中心那目前他的委員相關的部分是哪幾個委員其中有沒有包含交通部部長"},{"start":11605.823,"end":11619.857,"text":"我個人是董事之一但是因為剛上任還沒有開過會所以基本上交通部有引爆那太空中心會跨相關的領域部門那沒關係我就簡短的提就是說"},{"start":11620.478,"end":11641.867,"text":"因為目前來講氣象署其實是非常的用心但是在這個氣象衛星的研發人員目前是全部委外那在目前來講這個國家太空中心啊那其實在這個衛星的這個研發或是在集合在氣象的這個監測上我覺得確實要重視到交通部包括氣象署的一些專業"},{"start":11642.887,"end":11666.021,"text":"那這樣子才能夠有效的來提升海天氣預報那以及來銜接、銜補在這個氣象專業如何能夠運用在不管是太空上面以及包括在未來的民眾第一線的需求上謝謝委員這是應該的,謝謝委員謝謝,余委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":11676.114,"end":11683.744,"text":"謝謝主席那一樣先請我們的署長請陳署長那次長也麻煩一起好了請次長因為這可能會有點跨機關的問題請教一下我們"},{"start":11688.413,"end":11708.138,"text":"常常發生一些國家重大的緊急通報事項的時候會有細胞檢訊嘛對不對那這時候網路上大家常常討論的不是發生什麼事常常是有人會說我變成了國家的邊緣人對不對我們這可能發出來之後就會大家討論我怎麼都沒收到有人有收到那關於這個問題我們怎麼克服這可能涉及到通訊的部分啦那沒關係誰大家都可以"},{"start":11715.684,"end":11744.037,"text":"有關PWS的部分主要是發的quartier因為它有分成好幾個不同的等級有所謂國家級的警報如果每個人都應該收到但有人沒收到是那如果是屬於技術型的問題沒有收到它可能是基地台的普及還不行因為我們的基本的國家的infra的這個部分事實上是有強化的對所以我就是在問這一個而已基地台的普及"},{"start":11744.457,"end":11766.75,"text":"那今天要在這個開這個今天的會議之前我們應該好像有先發新聞稿給媒體嘛對不對有特別提到一些這個危險的溪流有跟地方政府配合當發生可能河水暴漲的情況的時候會有預警嘛對不對那這個情形發生的時候會發生河水暴漲的地方其實都在哪些地方"},{"start":11768.249,"end":11787.894,"text":"應該都是在荒郊野嶺嘛深山裡面這些地方的通訊一般來說常常都非常的塌沒有訊號那我們從一開始從這個胡寶潭或者是陸陸續續好啦現在有19條的溪流陸陸續續有這個跟地方政府合作嘛就是發緊急的訊號"},{"start":11789.554,"end":11801.221,"text":"那有關這19條緊急的這個溪流的危險的部分我們有去測試過這些地方的訊號到底有沒有嗎?民眾收不收得到?"},{"start":11802.807,"end":11821.719,"text":"這個部分因為有跟地方政府做了相關討論所以所有identify的19條溪流裡面全部都可以在收到的範圍當然有一些更偏遠的地區還沒有加入的那個部分要慢慢去加進來也就是說在地方政府裡面所有的可能危險的溪流其實並不只19條因為目前只有10個縣市參加那這個部分會牽涉到這個地方政府"},{"start":11827.543,"end":11849.228,"text":"他相關的這個通訊還有我們基本的他是不是能夠收到所以這個部分是持續在增加的所以組長就是確認潛勢溪流當我們發簡訊發細胞簡訊的時候只要在我們溪流的周遭就一定會收到不會因為基地台的不普及而沒有收到訊號確定嗎"},{"start":11851.227,"end":11875.667,"text":"我們在做這件事情是會在沿著這個溪流連岸去identify到底有哪些集體台包括三大電信都有不是只有中華電信喔是是都有全部的電信公司都有因為不同電信公司它的普及度有時候不太一樣所以基本上都有可是它的普及度"},{"start":11877.032,"end":11885.296,"text":"會有一點點差異這個必須要特別在這裡稍微做一下所以我就是要確認有沒有沒有被包含到的包含地點包含電信公司"},{"start":11888.473,"end":11914.093,"text":"目前這19條溪流的部分因為我們已經經過事先的討論它都可以被cover也就是為什麼我們選這19條作為示範單位或是試作單位就是要確保所有的資訊我們稱之為end to end就是從前端到終端它的訊息都能夠傳播因為這件事情它的反應時間其實是不長的反應時間不長地震的反應時間非常短可能是幾秒"},{"start":11915.174,"end":11932.55,"text":"那颱風的反應時間你可能有幾天可是在七流的這個氾濫的部分你的反應時間可能是幾到幾十分鐘所以我說之後有發現一些地點他可能是沒有訊號的情況下那我之後就可能會在一樣可以找我們的"},{"start":11934.592,"end":11934.752,"text":"蓬佩奧議員"},{"start":11958.014,"end":11964.964,"text":"第二點也是有關國家級警報就是海嘯我想確認一下我們的東北角在我們的評估中有沒有可能會發生大型海嘯"},{"start":11972.233,"end":11994.051,"text":"按照過去的歷史記錄的確有發生過大型海嘯的記錄在1867年有到5公尺我記得大概是到5公尺的海嘯那我們相關的當然因為海嘯的緩衝時間老實說是比較長一點嘛對不對那我們相關的緊急的疏難那是什麼跟地方政府或其他單位來配合"},{"start":11995.856,"end":12019.842,"text":"有關海嘯的這個在我們的災防法裡面有關海嘯的這個部分基本上是消防署的任務所以在這個部分我們就是跟地方政府跟消防署那邊去做聯繫合作那對於海嘯相關的作為其實已經有identify一個固定的做法"},{"start":12020.282,"end":12037.491,"text":"所以我們這邊就是收集訊號然後把這個訊息丟給相關的組織的單位然後再由組織的單位來進行人員的疏散是 有兩個層次一個我們稱之為在近地發生的海嘯是因為台灣這邊地震所產生的海嘯另外一個是遠地的海嘯是"},{"start":12038.331,"end":12060.291,"text":"在原地海嘯就是會有會有這個太平洋的這個海嘯中心會提供相關的資訊那我們會去評估這個海嘯坡到達我們這邊相關的時間以及他的坡高來發出不同的警訊好OK那所以都有相關的配套措施那可不可以會後提供請主席才是那會後提供一下就是相關海嘯發布之後"},{"start":12061.392,"end":12062.213,"text":"謝謝廖委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":12091.679,"end":12095.982,"text":"謝謝主席請氣象署陳署長請氣象署吳昂華記證吳昂華我記證署長我們氣象署裡面這個氣象的預報員有多少人"},{"start":12116.941,"end":12135.439,"text":"30人那我們氣象的預報員需不需要有類似像國家考試的資格或者是我們的正式的預報員都是高普考禁用高普考禁用那他跟日本在所謂的氣象預報室的概念有沒有一樣"},{"start":12136.592,"end":12159.446,"text":"不太一樣因為一個是國家的氣象的官方機關那日本的氣象預報室他其實算是一個民間的考試雖然那個考試事實上是由JMA就是由日本氣象廳授權給一個相關的法人的組織在舉辦考試了解所以對我們的氣象預報員而言能夠上氣象局播報氣象"},{"start":12165.009,"end":12166.13,"text":"新聞台裡面的氣象播報員他需要什麼資格?"},{"start":12196.292,"end":12222.12,"text":"這個對每個新聞台可能不太一樣這裡面很重要一件事情一個是預報一個是播報或是傳播傳播會比較單純一點預報它需要很多很多的背景知識我根據你的預報我再來加以預報或者我加以傳播或者那你怎麼定義它是預報或者它叫傳播基本的定義是這樣子"},{"start":12223.956,"end":12237.402,"text":"預報的話他必須要自己產生一個報告他自己的報告傳播他只是把這個訊息我知道你們30個裡面大家可以自行預報自己認為接下來一個小時會不會下雨"},{"start":12238.491,"end":12254.286,"text":"是,其實我們有一個預報討論會因為我們是官方單位任何的預報發布都是經過預報討論會出來的結果所以是合意制的,派一個人出去講而已是,並且有審核的程序那這個預報員他們的薪水多少錢"},{"start":12257.447,"end":12272.935,"text":"我們的預報員就正式人的薪水如果是普考進來的話大概是4萬多那我們最高的預報預報人員的資深的預報人員他薪水可以到8萬OK大概4萬到8萬他們工作他們工作大概時間長不長"},{"start":12277.199,"end":12292.167,"text":"對基本上因為我們的預報人員他需要24小時運作所以我們的一個班目前是12小時的班然後之後就是輪替的方式來做那在24小時裡面都會有相關的人員我打電話到那個諮詢專線氣象署的諮詢專線是由預報員接我的電話是嗎是所以他們要24小時嗎"},{"start":12303.675,"end":12332.587,"text":"是那我請那個吳季正你當過你現在還在輪值預報員嗎我還有有時候會輪值你還在輪就對了台風的平常是這台風的時間這是媒體的工作媒體的工作所以你還在輪所以我打電話去有可能你接的目前那個電話我可能接不到但是如果改當當但你接過你接過這個電話對接了好多年好那你接這個電話裡面你覺得這個工作輕不輕鬆不輕鬆但是很有挑戰性也很刺激"},{"start":12333.12,"end":12359.333,"text":"那你覺得打電話進來的人你的比例而言真的要問氣象的有多少人?比例多高?我覺得不少比例6到8成那當然而且其中包括很多真的很關心天氣的那他打電話進來問的時候我看那個媒體有寫過有播那個什麼唸誦經的啦打電話進來聊天的啦或者anyway你覺得這個比例高不高?"},{"start":12360.263,"end":12383.013,"text":"這比例其實逐年逐年就是比以前高啦你以前越來越高了我覺得現在社會的社會氛圍的關係好所以你覺得這份薪水4萬多8萬24小時要輪子還要接這些電話你覺得應不應該再把它調升一下你說薪水調升嗎對對當然當然當然所以你也覺得明顯過低對不對"},{"start":12385.697,"end":12406.364,"text":"我們薪水就是我們公務員的薪資阿對對對對對謝謝謝謝好來署長其實齁對我而言我剛剛做了一個臨時提案就是說氣象對我而言尤其在現代它是產業為什麼我從氣象播報員左手因為氣象我們到底從學訓用"},{"start":12409.437,"end":12433.969,"text":"如果沒有把人才做好沒有把法令規範好政府在政策上把它當成產業其實這個產業我們一直做不起來你知道台灣我的調查好像只有6家氣象公司嘛韓國大概找我們10年啦他們關注到這個問題所以他們現在大概有幾百家幾十家韓國30家左右啦韓國大概有30家左右"},{"start":12435.111,"end":12461.49,"text":"那如果我們對於這些什麼叫做播報員他具備什麼樣的條件那他該負責什麼而這些人市場氣象公司他們需要的人才是什麼我覺得氣象局應該有一個統一性的規劃那其實對我而言我覺得沒有產業我們的播報同仁都很辛苦因為他們沒有我們的預報員沒有地方可以跑"},{"start":12462.438,"end":12486,"text":"因為在外面沒有需求嘛可是如果氣象作為一個產業啊 你的薪水這麼低啊 他們就會去被挖角這個對氣象播報這個專業啊 我認為這個才公平啊那再來 這個產業很重要 譬如說 你知道過去3年啊我當那個 這個我現在還是中華職棒會長 但過去3年我也是會長"},{"start":12487.566,"end":12498.752,"text":"我每次跟氣象局最密切的時間是什麼是我們辦重要比賽的時間像我們辦那個中華職棒的明星賽我們的同仁幾乎"},{"start":12500.131,"end":12520.321,"text":"都要跟我們氣象局那個諮詢專線幾乎每一個小時就要打一通電話因為幾個小時後會不會下雨我們的比賽要不要提早通知球迷今天一定會下雨所以取消或者我們必須球迷來了我們要很清楚的知道是延長一個小時後比賽還是兩個小時後比賽因為這個動輒以中華職棒而言一場比賽動輒都是"},{"start":12528.548,"end":12544.099,"text":"都是千萬級的錢在輸贏所以你看為了我們這個我們一定要買保險為什麼不然我們損失實在太驚人了所以我們只好跟民間的保險公司來買天后的保險所以他是產業啊"},{"start":12545.382,"end":12563.016,"text":"我剛剛只是講一個規模不是太大千萬級啊你其他的譬如說風電、太陽能各式各樣比我們更大型的這些商業活動他所影響的更是巨大所以氣象不再是過去我們概念上好像"},{"start":12564.417,"end":12579.944,"text":"我覺得現代的生活從農業各式各樣商演活動各式各樣都跟氣象產生很大的關係你看我看了一個統計表這個應該是你們交通部美國氣象產業的產值是2100億日本200億韓國80億台灣只有3億"},{"start":12586.601,"end":12599.541,"text":"那不是台灣不需要是因為我們從來沒有好好的把氣象當成一個產業好好的來規劃所以這個署長知道我做一個臨時提案的用意了吧"},{"start":12600.003,"end":12617.136,"text":"是了解啊特別是在我們氣象署成立的時候其實我們做了很多討論那有關促進氣象產業發展這件事情的確也是我們在署成立的非常非常重要的一個工作那在這裡面也包含了我們怎麼樣在氣象法修法"},{"start":12618.457,"end":12634.074,"text":"讓我們的促進氣象的產業相關的發展所以在這個部分我們有一些配套的作為在做不過的確在我們台灣目前氣象產業相較於我們鄰近各國或者歐美先進國家我們的確是稍微有點落後那目前我們正在趕上"},{"start":12635.155,"end":12649.245,"text":"還有一件很重要的事情是我們的觀念我們的產業的觀念就是說有關產業發展其實最重要一件事情是市場其實剛剛委員的指教其實已經談到這件事情那市場的部分其實要靠"},{"start":12650.286,"end":12678.519,"text":"不僅是政府也靠民間他把這個市場的機會release出來去用運用運用不只是政府機關的相關的預報也包含了民間的預報這部分需要一起來努力對對其實這有機會但是因為源頭因為他的架構的源頭在你比如說你的所有的衛星相關監測天氣變化的設備大概民間公司他的重點在於跟你買這個data然後我來判讀"},{"start":12679.727,"end":12699.653,"text":"所以他需要什麼人,譬如說我可不可以我成立氣象公司會挖那個5G證過來我的公司那我民間公司我隨便都開比你價格高嘛但你民間沒有產業他永遠就只能待在氣象署啊他沒有地方可以跑啊所以我的意思是說政策先讓氣象公司這個產業"},{"start":12701.814,"end":12719.68,"text":"讓我們的政策訂出這個方向民間才可能投資嘛第二個我投資完我東西要跟誰買我的價格跟你跟國外比起來到底data的價格是高是低然後再來政府有沒有培訓這個人才譬如說你政府要不要訂證照的制度譬如說我們現在就像那個網路啊亂播報亂報地震亂報這個氣象"},{"start":12725.542,"end":12745.091,"text":"那現在不管你是加什麼警工什麼學術討論他就連這句話都會酸你啦你加任何警語他都會酸你啦那你有沒有考慮過他這個產業裡面是不是因為你沒有專業的技術人員你要不要用國家考試來規範什麼人可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":12746.453,"end":12771.568,"text":"這個道理是這樣,那你做到什麼程度之後國家有這個體系所以我開氣象公司某人開氣象公司他就知道說他會臨時你都會報我現在開個氣象公司人人人什麼叫合格的人才所以這個都是氣象署要整體去做一個規劃主席已經站起來我再問一個問題小問題就好了我覺得那個我們的APP真的應該要強化一下那國家的APP"},{"start":12772.108,"end":12780.167,"text":"比如說我不知道我都是用我也有下載你們但我都是用我的內建為什麼我用內建很簡單我要知道一小時"},{"start":12781.496,"end":12801.978,"text":"我等一下去齁只有兩個小時我就會離開所以我不需要知道你三小時後的可是你看你們的都不管降雨不管降雨不管溫度都是三小時啊就三小時一次啦可是你現在隨便免費的啊我那個蘋果手機內建的我都一小時啊"},{"start":12802.759,"end":12818.844,"text":"一小時後會不會下雨一小時後溫度幾度我們政府做的三小時人家一般的都一小時難怪你的APP很難用當然你還有其他資訊我是說我們對一般小老百姓最重要的事情就這個而已這個可不可以"},{"start":12819.369,"end":12836.4,"text":"改進一下我們理解齁這個我們其實下一階段就是要做一小時的現在是間隔三小時的資料那未來會做一小時的不要那麼下一個階段聽起來下一個階段不知道要三年五年啦這個就人家都已經搞那麼久了讓他再下一個階段"},{"start":12837.261,"end":12839.702,"text":"趕快改進阿趕快延續一下先加薪阿謝謝蔡委員發言完畢現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":12893.15,"end":12914.739,"text":"主席、委員有請這個次長請林國賢次長次長好早很早因為過去你擔任過路政司司長是是這個今天就問這個公路的部分10年前我沒關係那10年前沒關係"},{"start":12921.716,"end":12941.352,"text":"臺東縣、關山鎮、東七縣要透寬成為臺九縣的外環道公路總局有在做這樣的規劃但是國防部是希望能夠新建戰備跑道"},{"start":12943.957,"end":12967.018,"text":"所以這個臺東關山鎮的鄉親就不同意這個戰備跑道蓋在這個要跟這個關山的這個東七線併在一起因為這裡面會再拓寬很多就會增加很多的這個農地一個農田會被倒田了"},{"start":12967.978,"end":12988.531,"text":"會被這個成為一個道路所以他們反對那這個台東的鄉親現場來講就希望能夠再往東移以這個合體共構合體共構在這個上次啊"},{"start":12989.468,"end":13009.426,"text":"花東快速公路可行性評估的時候交通部、公路總局有去關山做可行性評估的說明會民眾也建議因為這個花東快速公路的目前的路線就是在"},{"start":13010.78,"end":13033.475,"text":"合體這個地方所以鄉親也是希望說就更快速發動快的在合體這個地方不會影響很多的農田這樣的話對這個戰備跑道我們絕對支持但是因為糧食也很重要糧食尤其是這個"},{"start":13035.401,"end":13036.021,"text":"華東快原來就有選定一個路"},{"start":13062.239,"end":13063.28,"text":"接下來最後一個議題舒華安"},{"start":13092.54,"end":13103.606,"text":"的環評卡關這個部分如果我們去對照抒發改抒發改的時候你那時候還在嗎是環評是我們做的所以這個"},{"start":13107.035,"end":13135.194,"text":"蘇花改97年11月10日行政院同意可行性的研究99年兩年就完成的環評當初而如果舊蘇花改跟現在的蘇花改已經完成了那需要蘇花安再進行事實上舊蘇花改跟蘇花安蘇花改的難度更高所以這個部分以現在的來看"},{"start":13136.695,"end":13141.468,"text":"蘇發安行政院在108年合併可行性研究"},{"start":13143.07,"end":13168.059,"text":"到現在還品都還沒有完成所以這個部分是一個需要去加強的地方而且其實因為有時候還品人也不一樣來的人不一樣委員會更換對要會換所以這部分公務總局、交通部你們在這說明的時候要把它說清楚說法改的"},{"start":13169.479,"end":13197.191,"text":"當時的那個難度影響的更高確實啊這個舒華安是比較要把它說明要讓他先知道啊因為環評的人不一樣啊確實所以這會覺得很奇怪的一個狀況所以這個部分我想這個我們公總應該要公路局啦應該要充分來說明您提的沒有錯當時舒華高速公路跟舒華改舒華改已經挑最危險的路段去處理了"},{"start":13197.771,"end":13219.389,"text":"所以理論上舒嬅安應該是相對相對環境影響上少但是環評委員提的意見我想我請工總對 要做很好的說明尤其是有的意見是說因為你要做高價嘛做高價的時候會不會影響什麼什麼馬上拿回工日給他看嘛"},{"start":13220.129,"end":13236.031,"text":"南迴公路現在都高價嘛所以這個部分是一個讓環評人員我們不批評他但是讓他了解能夠支持因為高價環的對地表的生態影響相對是小的對因為我們委員的考量"},{"start":13236.451,"end":13256.18,"text":"因為我們已經有案例了第一個就是速發改的案例這在透過隧道或是其他的第二個高架的部分也有很好的案例就是這個南回公路嘛南回公路這個部分每次經過那邊哇這超棒我每次我都稱這個"},{"start":13258.379,"end":13281.926,"text":"那個公路那一段我都說那個是臺東的高速公路我想我們要了解一下環評委員的考量是什麼公路局針對他的疑慮要充分的說明讓他了解讓他了解我不責怪這些環評委員但是因為他第一次接觸"},{"start":13282.346,"end":13282.786,"text":"謝謝委員,我們再來轉達"},{"start":13300.102,"end":13319.975,"text":"謝謝鄭委員：發言完畢：現在請謝一鳳委員：謝一鳳委員：謝一鳳委員不在：現在請鍾嘉斌委員：鍾嘉斌委員：鍾嘉斌委員不在：現在請徐宇貞委員：徐宇貞委員：徐宇貞委員不在"},{"start":13321.036,"end":13340.675,"text":"現在請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在現在請陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在"},{"start":13341.576,"end":13368.424,"text":"現在請羅廷惟委員．羅廷惟委員．羅廷惟委員不在現在請王美惠委員．王美惠委員．王美惠委員不在現在請張雅琳委員．張雅琳委員．張雅琳委員不在現在請羅明才委員．羅明才委員．羅明才委員不在"},{"start":13369.484,"end":13398.404,"text":"現在請復坤祺委員．復坤祺委員．復坤祺委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員不在現在請林思敏委員．林思敏委員．林思敏委員不在現在請鄭振淺委員．鄭振淺委員．鄭振淺委員不在"},{"start":13399.284,"end":13428.353,"text":"現在請舒巧慧委員、舒巧慧委員、舒巧慧委員不在登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員於質詢中所提要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請交通部儘速以書面答覆"},{"start":13429.588,"end":13435.598,"text":"本日議程處理完畢現在休息3月20日星期三上午9點繼續開會"}]}},{"id":"15732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15732","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d3e43fff42b9abd6114968be1351dde783be8d109af184be4d83d906b205891105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:30:50+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:05:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16450,"委員發言時間":"08:30:50 - 13:05:00","影片長度":"04:34:10","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":131.23409375,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":134.74409375000002,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":164.46096875,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1816.8778437500002,"end":1832.6053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1833.1622187500002,"end":1853.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1853.3109687500003,"end":1870.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1870.64159375,"end":1911.7659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1911.98534375,"end":1919.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1920.0853437500002,"end":1936.3022187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1938.15846875,"end":2002.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2003.2115937500002,"end":2011.3284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2012.6615937500003,"end":2016.1547187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2017.04909375,"end":2029.5197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2029.6547187500003,"end":2034.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2035.7297187500003,"end":2051.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2058.5447187500004,"end":2058.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2058.81471875,"end":2062.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2062.84784375,"end":2085.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2086.11846875,"end":2088.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2088.6834687500004,"end":2132.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2132.7440937500005,"end":2134.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2134.8365937500002,"end":2138.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2138.48159375,"end":2140.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2140.2197187500005,"end":2140.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2141.09721875,"end":2144.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2145.2147187500004,"end":2160.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2160.84096875,"end":2179.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2179.9772187500002,"end":2183.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2183.3015937500004,"end":2186.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2186.28846875,"end":2187.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2187.5203437500004,"end":2189.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2189.6803437500002,"end":2210.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2210.7234687500004,"end":2224.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2224.61159375,"end":2229.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2229.25221875,"end":2232.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2232.2390937500004,"end":2234.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2234.61846875,"end":2240.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2240.3053437500002,"end":2299.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2299.8572187500004,"end":2345.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2345.9090937500005,"end":2349.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2349.7059687500005,"end":2363.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2363.3915937500005,"end":2364.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2364.80909375,"end":2366.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2366.96909375,"end":2368.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2369.01096875,"end":2371.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2371.8122187500003,"end":2372.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2373.01034375,"end":2384.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2384.2322187500004,"end":2386.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2386.4765937500006,"end":2389.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2389.1259687500005,"end":2409.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2409.34221875,"end":2412.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2412.5653437500005,"end":2424.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2425.0865937500002,"end":2434.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2434.9753437500003,"end":2437.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2438.3503437500003,"end":2438.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2438.9747187500006,"end":2482.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2483.00159375,"end":2485.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2485.93784375,"end":2488.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2488.5534687500003,"end":2490.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2490.62909375,"end":2491.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2491.59096875,"end":2494.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2494.44284375,"end":2497.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2497.8347187500003,"end":2499.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2499.87659375,"end":2507.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2507.14971875,"end":2643.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2644.3434687500003,"end":2647.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2648.2584687500002,"end":2653.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2654.9578437500004,"end":2755.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2755.33034375,"end":2809.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2809.9715937500005,"end":2819.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2819.9784687500005,"end":2855.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2855.80409375,"end":2957.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2957.89784375,"end":3053.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3053.96721875,"end":3076.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3085.91159375,"end":3089.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3090.2147187500004,"end":3131.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3136.90784375,"end":3145.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3145.9528437500003,"end":3183.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3184.69784375,"end":3259.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3259.84221875,"end":3267.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3267.62159375,"end":3280.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3285.62721875,"end":3291.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3291.31409375,"end":3433.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3435.4772187500002,"end":3475.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3480.90471875,"end":3485.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3491.7215937500005,"end":3678.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3678.71346875,"end":3725.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3700.1278437500005,"end":3700.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3722.80784375,"end":3723.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3725.28846875,"end":3880.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3880.35284375,"end":3967.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3880.4372187500003,"end":3880.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3967.7315937500007,"end":3977.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3976.13534375,"end":4033.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4033.79721875,"end":4077.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4075.7147187500004,"end":4076.7609687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4077.4697187500005,"end":4164.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4077.50346875,"end":4077.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4081.04721875,"end":4081.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4110.42659375,"end":4110.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4110.47721875,"end":4111.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4111.962218750001,"end":4112.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4164.038468750001,"end":4167.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4166.4178437499995,"end":4167.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4170.61971875,"end":4177.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4180.542218750001,"end":4182.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4182.80346875,"end":4182.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4182.82034375,"end":4182.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4182.90471875,"end":4183.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4183.022843750001,"end":4183.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4186.61721875,"end":4187.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4187.46096875,"end":4233.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4233.58034375,"end":4268.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4267.870343750001,"end":4317.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4318.2928437499995,"end":4318.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4318.32659375,"end":4340.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4324.857218749999,"end":4326.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4326.882218750001,"end":4326.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4337.530343750001,"end":4339.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4339.99409375,"end":4363.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4363.956593749999,"end":4364.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4364.007218750001,"end":4397.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4364.02409375,"end":4366.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4393.200968749999,"end":4394.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4397.2509687500005,"end":4483.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4483.88721875,"end":4507.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4507.27596875,"end":4521.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4519.8309687500005,"end":4521.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4521.33284375,"end":4521.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4521.5184687500005,"end":4521.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4521.53534375,"end":4521.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4521.602843750001,"end":4521.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4521.67034375,"end":4521.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4521.7040937500005,"end":4531.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4521.788468750001,"end":4523.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4530.310343749999,"end":4640.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4532.1834687499995,"end":4532.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4640.9090937500005,"end":4680.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4681.341593749999,"end":4731.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4731.3759687500005,"end":4802.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4738.66596875,"end":4741.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4762.155968749999,"end":4768.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4771.589093750001,"end":4774.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4801.964093750001,"end":4870.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4803.465968750001,"end":4803.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4808.78159375,"end":4809.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4821.083468750001,"end":4821.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4868.704718749999,"end":4899.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4889.005343750001,"end":4891.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4891.04721875,"end":4892.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4892.44784375,"end":4893.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4893.47721875,"end":4893.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4893.52784375,"end":4893.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4898.96159375,"end":4900.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4900.46346875,"end":4900.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4900.66596875,"end":4927.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4900.75034375,"end":4901.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4926.0965937500005,"end":4926.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4928.155343750001,"end":4932.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4932.4247187500005,"end":4937.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4942.3134687500005,"end":4956.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4956.825968749999,"end":4956.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4956.91034375,"end":4957.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4957.93971875,"end":4965.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4968.06471875,"end":4968.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4968.132218750001,"end":4968.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4968.16596875,"end":4968.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4968.182843750001,"end":4968.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4968.503468750001,"end":4968.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4969.46534375,"end":5040.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5040.8465937500005,"end":5049.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5050.060343749999,"end":5064.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5065.12971875,"end":5082.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5076.57096875,"end":5076.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5076.604718750001,"end":5077.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5080.99221875,"end":5112.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5082.84846875,"end":5083.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5113.24034375,"end":5119.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5119.88909375,"end":5126.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5126.35221875,"end":5137.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5137.65846875,"end":5147.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5146.905968749999,"end":5147.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5147.81721875,"end":5150.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5150.145968750001,"end":5185.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5180.335343750001,"end":5180.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5180.385968750001,"end":5180.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5186.562218749999,"end":5201.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5200.41659375,"end":5226.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5220.548468749999,"end":5220.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5220.76784375,"end":5220.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5226.94409375,"end":5227.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5227.65284375,"end":5228.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5228.935343749999,"end":5280.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5281.04534375,"end":5285.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5286.00659375,"end":5289.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5289.229718750001,"end":5328.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5328.37971875,"end":5356.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5356.69596875,"end":5377.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5376.15284375,"end":5376.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5377.36784375,"end":5403.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5392.09971875,"end":5392.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5402.325968749999,"end":5408.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5406.595343749999,"end":5406.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5407.253468750001,"end":5427.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5426.72721875,"end":5503.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5503.74471875,"end":5538.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5538.878468750001,"end":5540.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5541.86534375,"end":5544.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5544.936593750001,"end":5549.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5549.86409375,"end":5559.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5558.53784375,"end":5564.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5559.972218750001,"end":5560.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5565.67596875,"end":5573.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5573.7928437499995,"end":5574.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5574.417218750001,"end":5578.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5578.51784375,"end":5596.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5598.548468749999,"end":5617.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5617.077218750001,"end":5625.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5625.464093750001,"end":5628.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5628.2147187499995,"end":5628.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5629.075343750001,"end":5635.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5634.779093749999,"end":5637.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5637.05721875,"end":5637.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5637.19221875,"end":5637.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5637.225968750001,"end":5637.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5637.25971875,"end":5637.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5637.411593750001,"end":5637.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5637.44534375,"end":5638.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5638.03596875,"end":5651.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5652.126593749999,"end":5679.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5652.1434687500005,"end":5652.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5675.937218749999,"end":5677.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5678.36721875,"end":5705.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5705.97471875,"end":5706.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5706.02534375,"end":5706.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5706.413468750001,"end":5724.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5720.53784375,"end":5720.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5722.14096875,"end":5726.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5726.78159375,"end":5730.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5727.52409375,"end":5738.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5738.40846875,"end":5742.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5739.876593749999,"end":5751.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5749.69784375,"end":5756.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5757.10596875,"end":5762.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5770.31909375,"end":5775.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5784.15659375,"end":5787.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5787.34596875,"end":5788.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5791.59846875,"end":5792.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5792.8134687500005,"end":5868.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5868.5653437500005,"end":5873.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5873.8134687500005,"end":5873.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5873.847218750001,"end":5879.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5875.635968750001,"end":5875.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5875.770968750001,"end":5876.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5880.040343750001,"end":5896.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5896.00409375,"end":5948.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5896.03784375,"end":5897.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5949.00846875,"end":5949.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5949.02534375,"end":5953.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5953.04159375,"end":5957.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5957.46284375,"end":5958.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5957.64846875,"end":5958.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5958.86346875,"end":5959.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5959.217843750001,"end":5963.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5961.276593750001,"end":5962.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5964.16221875,"end":5970.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5969.68034375,"end":5970.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5970.456593750001,"end":5973.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5971.350968750001,"end":5973.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5973.325343750001,"end":5974.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5973.3759687500005,"end":6045.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6046.61346875,"end":6091.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6091.09596875,"end":6114.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6114.602843750001,"end":6119.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6118.028468750001,"end":6127.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6125.942843750001,"end":6185.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6186.33846875,"end":6203.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6191.012843750001,"end":6193.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6203.331593750001,"end":6205.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6204.39471875,"end":6206.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6206.55471875,"end":6207.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6206.571593750001,"end":6208.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6207.9384687500005,"end":6239.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6209.27159375,"end":6209.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6239.46096875,"end":6242.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6241.722218750001,"end":6248.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6244.675343750001,"end":6258.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6249.923468750001,"end":6252.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6255.76221875,"end":6256.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6256.89284375,"end":6389.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6259.08659375,"end":6259.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6264.16596875,"end":6267.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6389.31096875,"end":6406.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6403.435343749999,"end":6405.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6406.0340937500005,"end":6442.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6406.169093750001,"end":6408.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6442.65284375,"end":6456.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6452.575343750001,"end":6454.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6456.0009687500005,"end":6456.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6456.591593749999,"end":6500.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6457.33409375,"end":6457.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6499.909718750001,"end":6502.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6502.120343750001,"end":6503.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6502.170968750001,"end":6502.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6502.812218749999,"end":6502.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6502.84596875,"end":6505.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6506.0184687500005,"end":6519.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6528.698468750001,"end":6530.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6530.234093749999,"end":6531.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6533.997218750001,"end":6534.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6535.09409375,"end":6544.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6545.286593750001,"end":6546.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6546.029093749999,"end":6546.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6546.33284375,"end":6546.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6546.34971875,"end":6546.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6546.366593750001,"end":6546.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6546.417218750001,"end":6546.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6546.5184687500005,"end":6549.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6549.25221875,"end":6606.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6606.94784375,"end":6617.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6609.81659375,"end":6612.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6616.61721875,"end":6622.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6618.67596875,"end":6618.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6620.295968750001,"end":6624.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6623.45159375,"end":6637.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6626.050343750001,"end":6626.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6629.425343750001,"end":6630.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6637.964093750001,"end":6645.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6644.764718750001,"end":6645.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6645.827843749999,"end":6652.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6653.573468750001,"end":6657.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6657.218468749999,"end":6660.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6660.222218750001,"end":6662.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6662.6522187499995,"end":6666.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6665.36909375,"end":6665.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6666.887843750001,"end":6672.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6669.030968749999,"end":6670.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6671.5115937499995,"end":6673.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6673.114718750001,"end":6677.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6673.13159375,"end":6673.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6678.092843750001,"end":6682.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6683.054093750001,"end":6714.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6704.198468750001,"end":6704.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6704.434718750001,"end":6704.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6704.60346875,"end":6704.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6707.40471875,"end":6707.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6708.24846875,"end":6711.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6715.33596875,"end":6735.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6736.210343750001,"end":6750.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6750.925343750001,"end":6752.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6752.3934687500005,"end":6755.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6755.4647187499995,"end":6784.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6784.827218750001,"end":6789.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6790.46346875,"end":6834.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6833.984093749999,"end":6847.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6837.274718750001,"end":6840.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6847.19721875,"end":6858.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6848.192843750001,"end":6848.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6856.2928437499995,"end":6873.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6865.00034375,"end":6866.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6873.319718750001,"end":6873.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6873.370343750001,"end":6874.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6874.112843750001,"end":6878.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6874.872218750001,"end":6893.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6890.63346875,"end":6890.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6891.44346875,"end":6928.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6896.45534375,"end":6899.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6901.163468750001,"end":6903.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6903.036593750001,"end":6903.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6904.57221875,"end":6909.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6912.790343750001,"end":6913.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6917.68409375,"end":6918.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6918.966593749999,"end":6920.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6920.02971875,"end":6924.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6928.028468750001,"end":6934.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6928.14659375,"end":6928.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6933.85034375,"end":6938.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6938.6259687500005,"end":6942.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6939.132218750001,"end":6939.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6940.75221875,"end":6942.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6942.91221875,"end":6945.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6945.00471875,"end":6955.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6946.50659375,"end":6947.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6951.0965937500005,"end":6962.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6961.27221875,"end":6962.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6962.807843750001,"end":6988.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6963.044093750001,"end":6963.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6965.4403437500005,"end":6966.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6973.79346875,"end":6973.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6989.4872187500005,"end":6991.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6991.680968750001,"end":7001.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6994.904093749999,"end":6995.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6995.20784375,"end":6995.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7001.7215937500005,"end":7001.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7001.755343750001,"end":7002.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7002.00846875,"end":7003.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7003.257218750001,"end":7004.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7003.29096875,"end":7004.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7005.2147187499995,"end":7005.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7005.99096875,"end":7015.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7015.28909375,"end":7016.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7016.892218750001,"end":7026.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7025.78534375,"end":7031.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7028.012843750001,"end":7028.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7029.177218750001,"end":7034.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7032.130343750001,"end":7038.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7036.9228437500005,"end":7042.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7042.356593750001,"end":7042.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7042.37346875,"end":7042.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7042.66034375,"end":7043.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7043.4872187500005,"end":7043.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7044.702218750001,"end":7044.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7044.76971875,"end":7053.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7053.561593750001,"end":7058.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7059.2147187499995,"end":7062.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7063.83846875,"end":7067.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7066.8759687500005,"end":7070.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7070.40284375,"end":7072.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7071.3309687500005,"end":7071.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7072.84971875,"end":7080.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7080.882218750001,"end":7086.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7086.82221875,"end":7100.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7100.710343750001,"end":7103.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7101.030968750001,"end":7101.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7104.034718750001,"end":7113.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7112.13471875,"end":7117.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7115.25659375,"end":7119.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7117.56846875,"end":7118.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7119.9647187499995,"end":7145.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7145.41221875,"end":7145.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7145.46284375,"end":7150.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7151.200343750001,"end":7151.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7152.735968750001,"end":7156.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7153.24221875,"end":7154.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7156.448468750001,"end":7159.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7159.51971875,"end":7165.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7165.37534375,"end":7172.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7172.665343750001,"end":7179.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7174.589093750001,"end":7174.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7174.60596875,"end":7175.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7179.29721875,"end":7186.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7186.94159375,"end":7196.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7196.72909375,"end":7206.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7207.09034375,"end":7213.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7213.1990937499995,"end":7214.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7224.70784375,"end":7227.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7229.854718750001,"end":7230.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7230.44534375,"end":7230.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7234.7147187499995,"end":7236.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7237.17846875,"end":7237.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7240.60409375,"end":7242.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7242.42659375,"end":7263.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7263.35159375,"end":7264.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7265.241593750001,"end":7273.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7269.44346875,"end":7269.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7269.561593750001,"end":7269.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7273.392218750001,"end":7278.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7278.43784375,"end":7291.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7292.055968750001,"end":7307.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7308.05346875,"end":7332.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7329.61971875,"end":7330.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7332.977843750001,"end":7333.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7333.028468750001,"end":7333.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7333.97346875,"end":7350.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7348.38471875,"end":7359.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7361.800343750001,"end":7363.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7363.33596875,"end":7380.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7379.333468750001,"end":7387.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7383.9403437500005,"end":7384.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7384.04159375,"end":7384.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7384.3622187500005,"end":7390.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7390.97721875,"end":7393.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7392.76596875,"end":7392.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7393.60971875,"end":7402.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7402.485968750001,"end":7404.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7404.966593749999,"end":7423.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7418.16284375,"end":7418.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7418.44971875,"end":7418.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7423.022843750001,"end":7427.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7426.41471875,"end":7427.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7427.106593750001,"end":7427.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7427.292218750001,"end":7427.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7427.477843750001,"end":7441.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7427.49471875,"end":7431.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7436.2528437500005,"end":7437.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7441.23096875,"end":7441.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7441.38284375,"end":7455.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7441.41659375,"end":7443.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7444.909718750001,"end":7445.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7445.854718750001,"end":7445.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7453.46534375,"end":7454.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7455.20346875,"end":7455.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7455.372218750001,"end":7456.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7456.18221875,"end":7459.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7456.70534375,"end":7476.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7464.72096875,"end":7466.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7467.30284375,"end":7467.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7469.479718750001,"end":7469.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7469.49659375,"end":7470.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7477.09034375,"end":7492.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7492.395968750001,"end":7528.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7529.014718750001,"end":7529.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7529.87534375,"end":7539.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7538.5322187500005,"end":7562.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7562.46096875,"end":7569.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7570.13909375,"end":7571.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7571.843468750001,"end":7583.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7583.31846875,"end":7587.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7588.60034375,"end":7600.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7601.425343750001,"end":7608.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7608.597218750001,"end":7614.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7614.4022187499995,"end":7658.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7632.694718750001,"end":7633.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7635.360968750001,"end":7636.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7648.118468750001,"end":7648.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7649.31659375,"end":7650.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7653.5184687500005,"end":7653.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7657.38284375,"end":7660.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7659.15471875,"end":7659.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7660.825343750001,"end":7699.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7661.83784375,"end":7663.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7700.07659375,"end":7704.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7704.02534375,"end":7708.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7709.77971875,"end":7721.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7710.77534375,"end":7710.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7721.794718749999,"end":7736.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7736.96534375,"end":7752.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7747.42784375,"end":7748.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7752.01784375,"end":7760.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7754.144093750001,"end":7754.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7760.657843750001,"end":7763.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7763.96534375,"end":7764.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7764.370343750001,"end":7764.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7764.52221875,"end":7766.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7765.450343750001,"end":7775.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7774.61346875,"end":7782.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7776.554093750001,"end":7777.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7781.02596875,"end":7782.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7782.25784375,"end":7782.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7782.409718750001,"end":7782.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7782.544718749999,"end":7819.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7802.30534375,"end":7802.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7819.51784375,"end":7830.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7828.03971875,"end":7828.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7829.67659375,"end":7831.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7832.12346875,"end":7841.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7841.45534375,"end":7856.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7857.655343750001,"end":7866.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7865.856593750001,"end":7872.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7872.38721875,"end":7884.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7873.247843749999,"end":7873.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7885.026593750001,"end":7886.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7886.96721875,"end":7901.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7889.5322187500005,"end":7889.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7894.03784375,"end":7894.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7895.657843750001,"end":7896.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7897.27784375,"end":7897.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7898.138468749999,"end":7899.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7901.6990937499995,"end":7906.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7904.382218750001,"end":7904.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7906.94721875,"end":7909.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7909.51221875,"end":7913.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7911.030968750001,"end":7916.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7917.89909375,"end":7932.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7919.991593750001,"end":7920.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7932.76596875,"end":7942.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7942.215968750001,"end":7974.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7973.654093749999,"end":7974.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7974.58221875,"end":7974.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7974.936593750001,"end":7975.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7975.13909375,"end":7976.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7975.56096875,"end":7976.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7977.045968750001,"end":7977.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7977.95721875,"end":7982.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7980.77534375,"end":7982.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7982.83409375,"end":7989.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7989.66846875,"end":7989.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7989.972218750001,"end":7990.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7990.022843750001,"end":7990.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7990.967843750001,"end":7991.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7991.03534375,"end":7991.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7991.423468750001,"end":7994.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7993.43159375,"end":8005.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7995.405968750001,"end":7998.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7998.39284375,"end":7998.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8003.286593750001,"end":8026.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8007.5897187499995,"end":8007.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8008.36596875,"end":8009.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8010.94784375,"end":8010.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8011.639718750001,"end":8011.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8026.37159375,"end":8028.497843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8027.991593750001,"end":8030.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8035.33221875,"end":8041.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8043.044093750001,"end":8043.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8044.259093750001,"end":8045.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8045.423468750001,"end":8046.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8047.41471875,"end":8048.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8049.81096875,"end":8050.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8050.637843750001,"end":8050.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8051.295968750001,"end":8069.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8070.179093750001,"end":8083.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8083.32471875,"end":8088.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8088.977843750001,"end":8121.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8120.669093750001,"end":8157.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8121.175343750001,"end":8121.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8142.43784375,"end":8143.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8157.169718750001,"end":8168.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8168.25659375,"end":8200.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8174.382218750001,"end":8174.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8200.21784375,"end":8200.774718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8201.196593749999,"end":8217.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8217.329093750002,"end":8227.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8226.79596875,"end":8227.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8228.09534375,"end":8228.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8228.26409375,"end":8238.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8237.207843750002,"end":8262.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8240.75159375,"end":8241.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8261.187218750001,"end":8261.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8261.89596875,"end":8262.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8262.75659375,"end":8289.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8263.16159375,"end":8263.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8265.304718750001,"end":8266.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8268.86534375,"end":8269.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8288.69346875,"end":8305.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8290.06034375,"end":8290.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8305.484093750001,"end":8312.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8311.407218750002,"end":8332.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8313.465968750003,"end":8314.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8323.55721875,"end":8323.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8323.87784375,"end":8324.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8324.08034375,"end":8324.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8330.67846875,"end":8331.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8332.19721875,"end":8345.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8332.58534375,"end":8332.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8345.81534375,"end":8359.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8359.602218750002,"end":8410.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8411.03721875,"end":8461.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8461.34159375,"end":8477.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8462.117843750002,"end":8462.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8477.102843750003,"end":8477.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8478.01409375,"end":8511.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8511.61221875,"end":8517.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8517.957218750002,"end":8519.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8519.425343750001,"end":8578.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8578.94346875,"end":8591.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8591.44784375,"end":8619.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8619.207218750002,"end":8642.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8631.171593750001,"end":8634.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8636.74034375,"end":8637.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8642.309093750002,"end":8654.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8642.477843750003,"end":8642.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8650.155968750001,"end":8653.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8654.003468750001,"end":8673.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8665.42784375,"end":8666.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8672.65034375,"end":8676.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8674.641593750002,"end":8681.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8676.649718750003,"end":8677.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8680.51409375,"end":8682.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8688.22596875,"end":8690.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8695.97159375,"end":8696.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8696.96721875,"end":8697.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9007.703468750002,"end":9012.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9021.203468750002,"end":9022.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9022.671593750001,"end":9025.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9026.70471875,"end":9029.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9030.19784375,"end":9030.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9032.273468750001,"end":9033.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9034.34909375,"end":9034.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9035.074718750002,"end":9039.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9040.74471875,"end":9041.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9041.47034375,"end":9042.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9042.246593750002,"end":9042.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9042.820343750001,"end":9046.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9046.97159375,"end":9055.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9055.61159375,"end":9058.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9059.222843750002,"end":9060.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9059.340968750003,"end":9083.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9083.370968750001,"end":9098.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9098.575343750003,"end":9121.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9122.132843750001,"end":9122.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9123.17909375,"end":9132.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9133.000343750002,"end":9141.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9140.762843750003,"end":9143.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9143.024093750002,"end":9153.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9153.098468750002,"end":9169.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9169.500968750002,"end":9174.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9174.884093750003,"end":9176.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9177.499718750001,"end":9186.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9188.012843750003,"end":9198.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9198.593468750001,"end":9208.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9209.089718750001,"end":9210.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9211.11471875,"end":9228.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9229.06971875,"end":9235.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9234.23346875,"end":9234.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9234.925343750001,"end":9235.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9235.836593750002,"end":9270.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9239.27909375,"end":9239.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9270.750968750002,"end":9291.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9289.988468750002,"end":9291.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9292.01346875,"end":9299.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9298.88159375,"end":9303.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9302.695343750001,"end":9308.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9305.85096875,"end":9320.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9321.07221875,"end":9341.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9341.32221875,"end":9349.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9349.101593750001,"end":9349.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9349.82721875,"end":9360.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9361.16721875,"end":9371.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9370.53284375,"end":9381.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9371.74784375,"end":9372.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9381.72096875,"end":9384.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9381.78846875,"end":9382.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9382.81784375,"end":9398.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9399.152843750002,"end":9402.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9401.49846875,"end":9427.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9403.422218750002,"end":9403.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9427.80659375,"end":9460.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9460.03784375,"end":9460.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9460.172843750002,"end":9472.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9471.00659375,"end":9489.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9489.265343750001,"end":9505.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9506.039093750001,"end":9510.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9509.75159375,"end":9513.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9511.08471875,"end":9512.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9513.44721875,"end":9519.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9518.61096875,"end":9519.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9519.707843750002,"end":9523.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9523.74096875,"end":9524.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9524.500343750002,"end":9551.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9549.441593750002,"end":9555.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9556.54596875,"end":9558.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9558.942218750002,"end":9561.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9561.33846875,"end":9565.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9565.91159375,"end":9571.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9571.058468750001,"end":9618.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9618.93284375,"end":9623.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9623.97846875,"end":9632.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9631.774718750003,"end":9655.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9633.15846875,"end":9633.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9634.59284375,"end":9634.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9655.58534375,"end":9678.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9678.61971875,"end":9689.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9689.723468750002,"end":9693.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9692.980343750001,"end":9712.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9699.66284375,"end":9699.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9700.894718750002,"end":9700.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9700.945343750001,"end":9701.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9712.335968750001,"end":9712.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9712.62284375,"end":9733.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9716.33534375,"end":9717.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9733.868468750003,"end":9737.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9737.918468750002,"end":9738.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9745.49534375,"end":9747.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9755.29971875,"end":9756.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9756.91971875,"end":9757.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9760.78409375,"end":9760.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9760.969718750002,"end":9761.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9761.864093750002,"end":9787.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9787.93596875,"end":9788.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9788.77971875,"end":9807.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9795.41159375,"end":9795.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9795.664718750002,"end":9795.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9795.90096875,"end":9796.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9797.976593750001,"end":9798.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9800.69346875,"end":9800.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9802.65096875,"end":9803.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9803.81534375,"end":9810.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9809.92409375,"end":9853.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9814.83471875,"end":9815.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9819.99846875,"end":9820.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9824.85846875,"end":9825.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9836.097218750001,"end":9836.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9853.815968750001,"end":9855.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9855.672218750002,"end":9888.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9864.83534375,"end":9865.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9888.426593750002,"end":9892.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9890.13096875,"end":9908.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9899.00721875,"end":9899.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9905.352218750002,"end":9906.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9909.21659375,"end":9914.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9912.81096875,"end":9919.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9915.274718750003,"end":9916.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9917.417843750001,"end":9917.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9919.18971875,"end":9921.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9921.180968750003,"end":9930.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9923.83034375,"end":9924.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9927.62721875,"end":9928.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9930.192218750002,"end":9967.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9934.96784375,"end":9935.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9966.60846875,"end":9990.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9977.796593750001,"end":9978.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9978.977843750003,"end":9979.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9980.074718750002,"end":9980.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9987.449093750001,"end":9987.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9989.28846875,"end":9989.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9989.84534375,"end":9994.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9994.992218750001,"end":9995.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9995.144093750001,"end":10003.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9997.97909375,"end":9998.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9999.480968750002,"end":10000.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10002.94034375,"end":10012.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10012.390343750001,"end":10024.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10024.472843750002,"end":10033.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10028.894093750001,"end":10029.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10033.56846875,"end":10050.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10050.22409375,"end":10054.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10052.08034375,"end":10054.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10054.44284375,"end":10054.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10054.56096875,"end":10054.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10054.746593750002,"end":10088.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10059.20159375,"end":10059.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10065.85034375,"end":10065.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10065.968468750001,"end":10066.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10066.778468750003,"end":10066.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10069.79909375,"end":10069.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10069.815968750001,"end":10070.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10081.797218750002,"end":10084.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10086.42096875,"end":10086.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10088.05784375,"end":10088.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10088.61471875,"end":10092.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10092.73221875,"end":10096.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10095.347843750002,"end":10096.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10096.96784375,"end":10134.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10134.362843750001,"end":10171.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10139.796593750001,"end":10140.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10143.00284375,"end":10143.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10159.70909375,"end":10160.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10171.84221875,"end":10174.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10174.17096875,"end":10181.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10181.27534375,"end":10181.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10181.37659375,"end":10193.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10192.969718750002,"end":10197.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10198.72409375,"end":10201.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10201.62659375,"end":10241.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10233.469718750002,"end":10233.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10233.48659375,"end":10233.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10233.672218750002,"end":10233.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10233.68909375,"end":10233.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10233.790343750003,"end":10236.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10241.856593750003,"end":10245.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10241.890343750001,"end":10242.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10243.949093750001,"end":10244.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10244.961593750002,"end":10251.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10251.087218750003,"end":10257.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10252.96034375,"end":10253.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10254.95159375,"end":10255.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10255.52534375,"end":10273.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10259.879093750002,"end":10260.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10265.734718750002,"end":10267.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10273.93596875,"end":10276.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10277.277218750001,"end":10283.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10284.73596875,"end":10285.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10286.575343750003,"end":10287.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10288.97159375,"end":10298.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10297.25721875,"end":10309.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10304.277218750001,"end":10305.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10307.770343750002,"end":10315.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10310.04846875,"end":10310.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10315.22909375,"end":10316.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10316.832218750002,"end":10320.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10319.97096875,"end":10322.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10322.046593750001,"end":10323.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10322.434718750003,"end":10342.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10325.87721875,"end":10326.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10326.164093750001,"end":10326.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10329.218468750001,"end":10329.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10329.25221875,"end":10329.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10329.42096875,"end":10329.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10338.06096875,"end":10338.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10342.43159375,"end":10365.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10364.01471875,"end":10390.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10391.571593750003,"end":10415.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10393.37721875,"end":10393.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10415.95596875,"end":10416.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10417.019093750001,"end":10420.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10420.44471875,"end":10439.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10430.957843750002,"end":10431.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10431.02534375,"end":10431.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10431.278468750003,"end":10431.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10439.395343750002,"end":10440.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10443.47909375,"end":10447.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10451.984093750001,"end":10453.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10454.059718750003,"end":10454.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10458.008468750002,"end":10458.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10459.324718750002,"end":10459.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10461.83909375,"end":10509.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10509.899093750002,"end":10535.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10535.802218750003,"end":10577.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10561.55346875,"end":10562.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10562.093468750001,"end":10562.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10567.34159375,"end":10568.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10577.618468750003,"end":10764.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10764.492218750001,"end":10764.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10764.52596875,"end":10792.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10792.285343750002,"end":10930.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10803.051593750002,"end":10803.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10848.64784375,"end":10849.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10906.10721875,"end":10906.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10930.99784375,"end":10936.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10936.85346875,"end":10936.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10936.87034375,"end":11048.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11048.532218750002,"end":11067.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11067.989093750002,"end":11099.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11099.258468750002,"end":11099.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11099.49471875,"end":11116.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11116.386593750001,"end":11126.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11127.11909375,"end":11150.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11143.909718750001,"end":11144.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11146.20471875,"end":11146.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11149.714718750001,"end":11149.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11149.74846875,"end":11150.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11150.11971875,"end":11150.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11150.96346875,"end":11151.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11154.01784375,"end":11156.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11164.88534375,"end":11167.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11167.500968750002,"end":11167.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11167.51784375,"end":11167.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11167.534718750001,"end":11167.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11168.15909375,"end":11168.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11168.98596875,"end":11169.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11169.00284375,"end":11169.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11169.67784375,"end":11169.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11172.074093750001,"end":11172.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11172.124718750001,"end":11172.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11172.73221875,"end":11208.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11208.60846875,"end":11208.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11209.047218750002,"end":11217.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11218.868468750003,"end":11225.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11225.95596875,"end":11226.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11226.563468750002,"end":11231.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11232.773468750001,"end":11232.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11232.874718750001,"end":11235.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11235.996593750002,"end":11237.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11239.01721875,"end":11240.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11240.87346875,"end":11244.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11244.50159375,"end":11248.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11248.028468750003,"end":11271.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11249.47971875,"end":11250.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11271.99096875,"end":11275.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11276.56409375,"end":11278.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11279.06159375,"end":11280.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11293.270343750002,"end":11307.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11304.036593750003,"end":11304.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11308.339718750001,"end":11326.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11326.969718750002,"end":11335.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11333.652218750001,"end":11334.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11334.445343750001,"end":11334.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11334.934718750003,"end":11358.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11357.665343750003,"end":11359.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11358.84659375,"end":11359.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11359.926593750002,"end":11362.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11362.812218750001,"end":11401.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11402.19846875,"end":11440.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11440.977218750002,"end":11451.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11451.034718750001,"end":11469.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11469.90096875,"end":11489.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11475.874718750001,"end":11476.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11477.39346875,"end":11477.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11489.222843750002,"end":11491.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11490.72471875,"end":11493.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11491.956593750001,"end":11513.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11502.621593750002,"end":11503.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11513.03346875,"end":11513.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11513.050343750001,"end":11513.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11513.10096875,"end":11541.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11526.60096875,"end":11527.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11527.95096875,"end":11530.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11537.856593750003,"end":11538.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11539.071593750003,"end":11551.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11548.707218750002,"end":11556.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11554.292843750001,"end":11573.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11573.277218750001,"end":11596.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11586.692843750003,"end":11586.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11586.726593750001,"end":11586.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11586.96284375,"end":11590.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11596.83471875,"end":11597.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11598.52221875,"end":11602.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11603.01096875,"end":11608.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11609.06909375,"end":11609.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11609.625968750002,"end":11614.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11614.77284375,"end":11634.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11634.820343750001,"end":11646.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11647.577843750001,"end":11673.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11674.155968750001,"end":11674.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11674.965968750003,"end":11701.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11685.47909375,"end":11685.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11701.35846875,"end":11718.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11705.070968750002,"end":11707.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11715.58409375,"end":11716.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11718.621593750002,"end":11760.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11718.790343750003,"end":11719.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11729.10096875,"end":11729.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11751.679718750001,"end":11752.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11760.539093750001,"end":11809.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11809.155968750001,"end":11813.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11814.269093750001,"end":11821.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11827.364093750002,"end":11827.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11830.722218750001,"end":11835.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11842.16346875,"end":11844.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11847.985343750002,"end":11848.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11848.62659375,"end":11849.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11849.89221875,"end":11878.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11880.300968750002,"end":11883.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11883.675968750002,"end":11917.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11917.544093750003,"end":11926.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11922.184718750003,"end":11922.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11922.977843750003,"end":11923.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11923.04534375,"end":11923.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11923.062218750001,"end":11923.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11923.079093750002,"end":11923.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11923.09596875,"end":11923.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11926.909718750001,"end":11931.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11931.128468750001,"end":11931.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11931.75284375,"end":11932.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11932.57971875,"end":11984.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11984.504093750002,"end":12027.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12026.843468750001,"end":12036.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12035.449718750002,"end":12036.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12036.715343750002,"end":12056.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12055.93596875,"end":12056.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12057.04971875,"end":12102.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12078.160343750002,"end":12078.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12102.46034375,"end":12110.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12110.98221875,"end":12123.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12123.672218750002,"end":12157.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12157.742843750002,"end":12161.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12158.805968750003,"end":12164.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12164.47596875,"end":12168.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12166.99034375,"end":12168.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12168.019718750002,"end":12168.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12168.40784375,"end":12168.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12168.42471875,"end":12168.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12168.74534375,"end":12168.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12168.981593750003,"end":12223.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12223.082843750002,"end":12253.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12253.339718750001,"end":12352.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12255.21284375,"end":12256.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12258.081593750001,"end":12258.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12352.919093750003,"end":12371.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12371.02596875,"end":12376.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12376.425968750002,"end":12376.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12376.847843750002,"end":12376.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12376.88159375,"end":12376.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12376.965968750003,"end":12384.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12383.648468750001,"end":12386.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12385.63971875,"end":12387.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12386.331593750001,"end":12472.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12471.921593750001,"end":12495.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12494.95596875,"end":12506.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12507.98346875,"end":12584.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12566.67471875,"end":12567.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12583.988468750002,"end":12598.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12600.42471875,"end":12608.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12612.60846875,"end":12618.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12620.961593750002,"end":12621.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12621.636593750001,"end":12717.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12717.570968750002,"end":12747.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12720.01784375,"end":12720.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12720.11909375,"end":12720.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12720.304718750001,"end":12720.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12720.321593750003,"end":12720.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12720.38909375,"end":12720.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12747.28784375,"end":12747.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12747.92909375,"end":12747.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12747.96284375,"end":12799.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12800.59596875,"end":12803.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12803.61659375,"end":12803.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12803.633468750002,"end":12809.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12809.961593750002,"end":12827.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12822.870968750001,"end":12822.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12826.262843750003,"end":12830.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12830.903468750003,"end":12844.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12831.56159375,"end":12832.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12840.10034375,"end":12840.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12840.37034375,"end":12840.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12840.437843750002,"end":12840.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12840.454718750003,"end":12840.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12841.41659375,"end":12842.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12844.032218750002,"end":12863.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12861.970343750003,"end":12907.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12863.35409375,"end":12863.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12863.843468750001,"end":12864.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12868.51784375,"end":12869.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12869.277218750001,"end":12869.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12874.54221875,"end":12874.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12874.57596875,"end":12875.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12877.242218750001,"end":12877.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12879.48659375,"end":12879.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12879.891593750002,"end":12879.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12885.004718750002,"end":12885.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12900.765968750002,"end":12902.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12906.992843750002,"end":12907.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12907.00971875,"end":12907.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12907.43159375,"end":12907.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12908.157218750002,"end":12914.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12915.02534375,"end":12939.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12937.03034375,"end":12973.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12940.169093750003,"end":12940.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12942.34596875,"end":12942.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12943.527218750001,"end":12943.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12946.480343750001,"end":12950.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12950.547218750002,"end":12950.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12952.11659375,"end":12952.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12954.27659375,"end":12954.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12954.31034375,"end":12954.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12960.13221875,"end":12960.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12973.36221875,"end":12973.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12973.41284375,"end":12973.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12973.429718750001,"end":12973.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12973.598468750002,"end":12973.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12973.598468750002,"end":12978.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12973.66596875,"end":12973.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12973.71659375,"end":12973.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12976.09596875,"end":12982.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12978.711593750002,"end":12989.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12984.314093750003,"end":12984.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12987.85784375,"end":13011.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12989.190968750001,"end":12989.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12990.13596875,"end":12990.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12994.962218750003,"end":12995.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13013.305343750002,"end":13018.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13015.094093750002,"end":13015.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13019.329718750003,"end":13052.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13023.379718750002,"end":13023.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13026.46784375,"end":13027.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13027.969718750002,"end":13029.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13032.72846875,"end":13033.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13034.348468750002,"end":13035.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13044.422843750002,"end":13044.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13044.473468750002,"end":13044.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13044.794093750003,"end":13044.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13044.81096875,"end":13044.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13053.164093750001,"end":13077.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13054.497218750003,"end":13055.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13075.77659375,"end":13121.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13077.902843750002,"end":13078.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13079.08409375,"end":13080.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13083.505343750003,"end":13083.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13094.997218750003,"end":13095.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13095.081593750001,"end":13095.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13109.57721875,"end":13109.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13119.617843750002,"end":13119.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13121.49096875,"end":13163.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13164.977843750003,"end":13165.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13166.024093750002,"end":13183.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13175.81159375,"end":13175.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13175.929718750001,"end":13176.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13176.030968750001,"end":13176.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13184.29971875,"end":13188.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13188.67034375,"end":13189.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13189.075343750003,"end":13189.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13189.46346875,"end":13212.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13210.70909375,"end":13224.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13212.362843750001,"end":13212.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13219.112843750001,"end":13219.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13219.129718750002,"end":13219.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13224.074093750001,"end":13224.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13224.15846875,"end":13224.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13224.192218750002,"end":13224.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13224.22596875,"end":13228.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13224.31034375,"end":13224.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13228.17471875,"end":13231.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13230.48659375,"end":13230.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13230.824093750001,"end":13230.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13231.80284375,"end":13232.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13232.59596875,"end":13264.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13232.730968750002,"end":13233.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13263.426593750002,"end":13264.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13264.675343750001,"end":13274.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13275.15471875,"end":13281.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13281.567218750002,"end":13369.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13370.262218750002,"end":13417.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13418.81159375,"end":13422.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13422.996593750002,"end":13423.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13429.08846875,"end":13435.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13434.336593750002,"end":13439.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13436.09159375,"end":13436.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13436.277218750001,"end":13437.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13440.00659375,"end":13445.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13445.54159375,"end":13445.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13446.030968750001,"end":13452.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13453.219718750002,"end":13457.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13457.62409375,"end":13458.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13458.87284375,"end":13461.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13461.84284375,"end":13462.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13463.15909375,"end":13464.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13465.032218750002,"end":13469.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13469.132843750001,"end":13470.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13470.735968750003,"end":13472.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13473.11534375,"end":13476.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13476.895343750002,"end":13477.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13479.359093750001,"end":13479.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13481.55284375,"end":13498.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13498.410968750002,"end":13505.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13509.649718750003,"end":13512.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13510.18971875,"end":13510.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13510.527218750001,"end":13510.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13511.421593750001,"end":13513.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13512.653468750003,"end":13512.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13513.058468750001,"end":13516.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13517.226593750001,"end":13518.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13522.89659375,"end":13527.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13527.97596875,"end":13531.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13531.70534375,"end":13531.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13531.722218750001,"end":13531.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13531.739093750002,"end":13534.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13533.88221875,"end":13543.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13543.855343750001,"end":13547.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13547.90534375,"end":13548.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13548.597218750001,"end":13551.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13552.44471875,"end":13552.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13553.28846875,"end":13555.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13555.313468750002,"end":13556.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13556.27534375,"end":13559.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13559.565968750001,"end":13561.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13561.97909375,"end":13563.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13563.548468750003,"end":13563.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13564.18971875,"end":13565.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13566.484718750002,"end":13569.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13570.534718750001,"end":13572.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13573.184093750002,"end":13583.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13583.781593750002,"end":13584.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13584.675968750002,"end":13591.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13591.61159375,"end":13603.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13604.06534375,"end":13610.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13611.18659375,"end":13612.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13612.958468750003,"end":13617.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13616.215343750002,"end":13616.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13618.071593750003,"end":13621.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13620.78846875,"end":13621.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13621.024718750003,"end":13621.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13621.598468750002,"end":13621.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13621.98659375,"end":13622.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13622.62784375,"end":13625.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13626.070343750001,"end":13627.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13629.47909375,"end":13631.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13632.516593750002,"end":13634.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13634.423468750003,"end":13640.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13640.70096875,"end":13653.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13642.03409375,"end":13642.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13642.219718750002,"end":13642.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13654.774718750003,"end":13657.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13657.812218750001,"end":13673.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13678.754093750002,"end":13683.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13683.74909375,"end":13685.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13685.622218750003,"end":13686.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13691.44409375,"end":13692.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13692.473468750002,"end":13702.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13703.661593750003,"end":13720.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13711.37346875,"end":13712.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13712.976593750001,"end":13714.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13717.60034375,"end":13717.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13721.532218750002,"end":13721.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13721.54909375,"end":13727.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13728.012218750002,"end":13728.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13729.19346875,"end":13731.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13731.84284375,"end":13745.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13745.96721875,"end":13753.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13746.321593750003,"end":13746.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13754.657843750003,"end":13763.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13764.25971875,"end":13764.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13765.94721875,"end":13766.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13767.26346875,"end":13768.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13769.254718750002,"end":13769.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13771.17846875,"end":13772.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13772.579093750002,"end":13772.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13772.69721875,"end":13775.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13775.97096875,"end":13775.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13776.747218750003,"end":13791.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13792.305968750003,"end":13794.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13795.292843750001,"end":13799.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13799.984093750001,"end":13800.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13800.878468750001,"end":13802.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13803.848468750002,"end":13805.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13805.687843750002,"end":13806.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13806.51471875,"end":13810.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13810.547843750002,"end":13827.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13829.009093750003,"end":13830.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13831.894718750002,"end":13833.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13833.39659375,"end":13852.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13854.43971875,"end":13865.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13858.92846875,"end":13859.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13865.172218750002,"end":13872.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13871.53409375,"end":13893.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13893.82596875,"end":13897.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13898.73659375,"end":13899.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13900.00221875,"end":13900.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13901.01471875,"end":13901.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13902.53346875,"end":13904.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13904.659718750001,"end":13905.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13905.97596875,"end":13907.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13908.270968750003,"end":13908.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13908.878468750001,"end":13909.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13910.24534375,"end":13910.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13910.987843750001,"end":13913.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13911.173468750003,"end":13911.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13914.059093750002,"end":13936.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13938.325343750003,"end":13946.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13946.77971875,"end":13946.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13946.796593750001,"end":13947.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13946.847218750001,"end":13951.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13952.027843750002,"end":13953.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13953.360968750003,"end":13961.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13962.08534375,"end":13966.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13964.211593750002,"end":13969.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13969.98284375,"end":13972.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13972.969718750002,"end":13974.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13974.876593750003,"end":13983.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13984.090343750002,"end":13997.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13996.425968750002,"end":14001.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14001.235343750002,"end":14012.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14001.269093750001,"end":14001.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14002.872218750003,"end":14003.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14010.48284375,"end":14011.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14012.254718750002,"end":14022.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14023.72971875,"end":14033.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14028.134093750003,"end":14028.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14028.437843750002,"end":14028.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14034.293468750002,"end":14037.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14034.445343750001,"end":14034.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14037.837218750003,"end":14037.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14037.870968750001,"end":14037.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14037.972218750001,"end":14038.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14038.07346875,"end":14038.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14038.259093750003,"end":14038.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14038.343468750001,"end":14046.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14046.24096875,"end":14046.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14046.257843750001,"end":14046.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14046.96659375,"end":14048.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14049.649718750003,"end":14057.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14058.593468750001,"end":14060.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14072.54909375,"end":14075.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14076.329093750002,"end":14076.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14076.852218750002,"end":14077.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14079.906593750002,"end":14094.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14080.750343750002,"end":14080.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14080.817843750003,"end":14080.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14094.722843750002,"end":14100.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14100.274718750003,"end":14109.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14106.214718750001,"end":14106.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14109.960968750001,"end":14129.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14129.957843750002,"end":14130.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14130.970343750003,"end":14135.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14135.543468750002,"end":14140.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14140.825343750003,"end":14140.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14141.129093750002,"end":14141.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14141.179718750001,"end":14141.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14143.390343750001,"end":14148.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14148.689093750003,"end":14187.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14187.636593750001,"end":14189.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14189.847218750001,"end":14191.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14192.58096875,"end":14195.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14195.48346875,"end":14199.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14200.00596875,"end":14209.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14209.77659375,"end":14241.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14241.83909375,"end":14243.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14243.121593750002,"end":14271.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14272.450343750003,"end":14272.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14272.484093750001,"end":14293.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14293.847843750002,"end":14302.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14302.757843750001,"end":14307.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14307.58409375,"end":14310.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14310.317843750003,"end":14311.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14320.67909375,"end":14326.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14326.872218750003,"end":14326.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14326.922843750002,"end":14326.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14326.93971875,"end":14327.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14327.15909375,"end":14327.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14327.969093750002,"end":14328.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14331.10784375,"end":14331.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14332.019093750001,"end":14333.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14337.840968750003,"end":14349.923468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14350.26096875,"end":14358.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14358.293468750002,"end":14362.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14362.59659375,"end":14364.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14365.02659375,"end":14382.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14383.352843750003,"end":14402.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14404.46346875,"end":14418.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14418.992843750002,"end":14446.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14447.32596875,"end":14460.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14460.707843750002,"end":14493.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14494.42409375,"end":14504.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14505.66284375,"end":14554.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14556.321593750003,"end":14564.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14564.87721875,"end":14565.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14565.88971875,"end":14575.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14575.84596875,"end":14608.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14608.515968750002,"end":14615.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14615.586593750002,"end":14642.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14642.704718750003,"end":14644.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14644.34159375,"end":14645.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14645.97846875,"end":14658.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14659.343468750001,"end":14660.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14665.92471875,"end":14669.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14669.87346875,"end":14670.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14673.957218750002,"end":14675.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14674.227218750002,"end":14738.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14700.501593750003,"end":14700.923468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14739.58409375,"end":14758.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14758.973468750002,"end":14766.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14766.11159375,"end":14786.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14784.488468750002,"end":14804.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14804.839718750001,"end":14813.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14812.973468750002,"end":14813.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14814.30659375,"end":14822.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14822.49096875,"end":14822.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14822.997218750003,"end":14829.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14823.01409375,"end":14823.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14823.18284375,"end":14823.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14825.190968750001,"end":14825.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14829.93284375,"end":14858.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14858.18159375,"end":14899.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14876.28846875,"end":14876.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14899.137218750002,"end":14982.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14911.65846875,"end":14913.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14918.847218750001,"end":14922.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14933.190968750001,"end":14935.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14957.372843750003,"end":14957.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14973.117218750001,"end":14974.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14977.335968750001,"end":14980.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14980.79534375,"end":14981.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14982.297218750002,"end":15014.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14983.680968750003,"end":14986.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14986.718468750001,"end":14987.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14988.321593750003,"end":14988.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15010.343468750001,"end":15010.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15013.27971875,"end":15015.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15017.582843750002,"end":15018.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15019.574093750001,"end":15021.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15029.05784375,"end":15032.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15033.05721875,"end":15034.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15036.90471875,"end":15037.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15038.17034375,"end":15050.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15050.72534375,"end":15093.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15094.364093750002,"end":15095.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15096.051593750002,"end":15097.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15097.435343750003,"end":15107.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15109.062218750001,"end":15112.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15114.20909375,"end":15116.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15117.16221875,"end":15125.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15124.82346875,"end":15126.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15126.49409375,"end":15132.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15131.320343750001,"end":15133.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15132.72096875,"end":15140.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15134.30721875,"end":15136.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15140.26409375,"end":15142.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15142.035968750002,"end":15144.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15145.343468750001,"end":15146.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15146.609093750001,"end":15150.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15151.064093750003,"end":15152.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15152.97096875,"end":15158.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15157.72971875,"end":15163.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15159.029093750003,"end":15159.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15160.429718750001,"end":15164.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15164.817218750002,"end":15167.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15167.044718750003,"end":15167.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15167.53409375,"end":15167.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15167.652218750001,"end":15170.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15170.11596875,"end":15171.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15172.039718750002,"end":15173.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15173.237843750001,"end":15174.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15174.368468750003,"end":15178.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15178.35096875,"end":15179.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15179.02596875,"end":15179.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15179.29596875,"end":15180.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15180.03846875,"end":15184.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15183.39659375,"end":15184.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15184.105343750001,"end":15185.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15185.50596875,"end":15185.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15185.52284375,"end":15185.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15186.164093750001,"end":15186.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15186.974093750003,"end":15187.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15187.024718750003,"end":15196.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15187.46346875,"end":15187.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15194.280968750001,"end":15196.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15197.33534375,"end":15198.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15199.360343750002,"end":15208.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15199.512218750002,"end":15200.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15205.165343750003,"end":15216.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15216.285968750002,"end":15218.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15218.85096875,"end":15219.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15221.179718750001,"end":15222.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15222.192218750002,"end":15222.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15222.462218750003,"end":15223.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15224.284718750001,"end":15225.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15226.17471875,"end":15226.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15226.410968750002,"end":15226.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15226.613468750002,"end":15226.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15226.74846875,"end":15226.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15226.815968750001,"end":15226.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15226.984718750002,"end":15227.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15227.001593750003,"end":15227.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15227.06909375,"end":15227.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15227.204093750002,"end":15227.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15227.406593750002,"end":15227.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15227.76096875,"end":15230.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15231.372218750003,"end":15232.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15233.059718750003,"end":15240.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15240.88971875,"end":15241.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15241.902218750001,"end":15245.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15247.774718750003,"end":15250.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15251.38596875,"end":15253.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15254.11971875,"end":15257.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15258.152843750002,"end":15258.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15258.220343750003,"end":15258.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15258.43971875,"end":15258.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15258.456593750001,"end":15258.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15258.726593750001,"end":15258.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15258.96284375,"end":15259.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15260.02596875,"end":15275.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15273.981593750003,"end":15278.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15278.892218750003,"end":15281.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15282.081593750001,"end":15285.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15286.50284375,"end":15289.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15290.02971875,"end":15291.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15292.206593750001,"end":15293.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15293.03346875,"end":15293.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15294.130343750003,"end":15295.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15296.070968750002,"end":15304.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15303.79971875,"end":15306.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15305.33534375,"end":15312.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15313.857218750003,"end":15313.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15313.97534375,"end":15314.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15318.210968750001,"end":15319.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15319.527218750001,"end":15320.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15322.31159375,"end":15323.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15323.93159375,"end":15326.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15327.27284375,"end":15328.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15328.96034375,"end":15335.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15336.23346875,"end":15344.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15344.738468750002,"end":15346.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15347.40471875,"end":15348.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15348.36659375,"end":15349.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15349.31159375,"end":15350.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15349.800968750002,"end":15349.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15349.902218750001,"end":15349.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15351.809093750002,"end":15352.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15353.665343750003,"end":15367.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15368.24534375,"end":15370.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15370.388468750003,"end":15371.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15372.278468750003,"end":15373.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15374.35409375,"end":15375.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15376.497218750003,"end":15377.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15378.066593750002,"end":15379.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15379.551593750002,"end":15381.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15381.863468750002,"end":15383.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15383.753468750001,"end":15390.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15390.95909375,"end":15391.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15392.29221875,"end":15392.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15392.309093750002,"end":15393.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15394.637843750003,"end":15398.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15400.392218750003,"end":15401.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15402.09659375,"end":15402.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15402.113468750002,"end":15403.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15403.868468750003,"end":15403.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15404.070968750002,"end":15404.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15404.83034375,"end":15404.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15405.35346875,"end":15406.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15407.88471875,"end":15408.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15409.184093750002,"end":15410.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15410.820968750002,"end":15411.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15413.605343750001,"end":15415.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15415.579718750003,"end":15417.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15417.23346875,"end":15418.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15420.33846875,"end":15420.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15420.355343750001,"end":15421.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15423.426593750002,"end":15428.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15433.99034375,"end":15437.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15440.200343750003,"end":15440.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15441.128468750001,"end":15480.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15481.25721875,"end":15509.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15509.87721875,"end":15535.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15535.493468750003,"end":15550.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15550.782218750002,"end":15558.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15558.780968750001,"end":15575.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15565.345343750003,"end":15566.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15566.661593750003,"end":15566.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15574.42409375,"end":15592.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15593.10471875,"end":15612.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15612.780968750001,"end":15647.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15630.820343750001,"end":15631.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15645.906593750002,"end":15647.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15647.15534375,"end":15652.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15652.454093750002,"end":15662.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15663.456593750001,"end":15665.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15666.105968750002,"end":15673.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15673.04159375,"end":15690.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15675.336593750002,"end":15676.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15684.22971875,"end":15684.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15684.246593750002,"end":15684.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15690.642218750003,"end":15692.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15690.70971875,"end":15692.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15692.380343750003,"end":15698.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15694.320968750002,"end":15697.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15697.93221875,"end":15702.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15699.78846875,"end":15702.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15702.690968750001,"end":15722.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15722.265968750002,"end":15728.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15724.88159375,"end":15725.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15727.88534375,"end":15730.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15731.378468750001,"end":15731.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15731.445968750002,"end":15731.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15731.496593750002,"end":15738.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15739.22534375,"end":15758.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15759.32346875,"end":15763.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15763.339718750001,"end":15763.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15763.879718750002,"end":15769.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15764.48721875,"end":15765.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15769.75221875,"end":15796.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15797.798468750003,"end":15815.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15815.58471875,"end":15821.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15816.124718750001,"end":15829.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15828.46034375,"end":15861.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15832.122218750003,"end":15832.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15832.13909375,"end":15833.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15862.09221875,"end":15862.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15862.109093750001,"end":15862.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15862.227218750002,"end":15862.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15862.379093750002,"end":15862.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15862.41284375,"end":15869.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15867.84659375,"end":15892.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15893.88471875,"end":15893.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15893.90159375,"end":15908.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15908.414093750001,"end":15911.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15933.844718750002,"end":15936.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15934.992218750001,"end":15936.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15936.07221875,"end":15936.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15936.08909375,"end":15936.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15936.122843750003,"end":15936.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15936.24096875,"end":15936.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15936.29159375,"end":15936.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15936.359093750001,"end":15936.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15936.44346875,"end":15936.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15936.477218750002,"end":15936.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15937.28721875,"end":15937.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15937.371593750002,"end":15938.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15939.784718750001,"end":15939.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15939.970343750003,"end":15940.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15940.83096875,"end":15940.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15940.898468750001,"end":15941.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15943.24409375,"end":15943.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15944.88096875,"end":15945.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15953.11596875,"end":15955.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15955.714718750001,"end":15956.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15957.16596875,"end":15961.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15961.82346875,"end":15963.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15963.477218750002,"end":15963.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15963.51096875,"end":15964.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15964.540343750003,"end":15965.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15966.312218750001,"end":15973.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15975.57659375,"end":15976.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15977.078468750002,"end":15977.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15978.985343750002,"end":15979.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15981.077843750001,"end":15982.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15982.883468750002,"end":15983.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15983.96346875,"end":15983.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15984.199718750002,"end":15989.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15989.44784375,"end":16004.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16005.732218750003,"end":16011.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16011.570968750002,"end":16016.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16017.24096875,"end":16023.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16024.125968750002,"end":16026.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16027.332218750002,"end":16029.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16030.251593750003,"end":16034.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16036.107218750003,"end":16037.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16038.570968750002,"end":16040.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16041.220343750003,"end":16045.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16047.059093750002,"end":16048.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16049.961593750002,"end":16054.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16054.821593750003,"end":16097.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16097.042843750001,"end":16097.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16098.409718750001,"end":16102.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16102.544093750003,"end":16102.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16102.56096875,"end":16104.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16102.645343750002,"end":16103.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16104.72096875,"end":16108.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16108.349093750003,"end":16111.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16111.875968750002,"end":16116.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16117.02284375,"end":16118.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16118.49096875,"end":16124.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16125.207218750002,"end":16127.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16127.839718750001,"end":16129.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16130.35409375,"end":16131.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16131.36659375,"end":16131.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16131.957218750002,"end":16133.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16133.796593750001,"end":16135.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16137.390968750002,"end":16142.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16143.01034375,"end":16144.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16145.035343750002,"end":16145.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16146.570968750002,"end":16147.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16147.92096875,"end":16151.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16153.28721875,"end":16154.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16155.177218750003,"end":16159.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16158.46784375,"end":16165.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16160.492843750002,"end":16160.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16160.796593750001,"end":16161.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16165.032218750002,"end":16165.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16166.095343750003,"end":16166.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16167.58034375,"end":16168.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16169.301593750002,"end":16170.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16171.07346875,"end":16174.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16175.309093750002,"end":16177.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16178.49846875,"end":16181.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16181.77221875,"end":16182.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16183.324718750002,"end":16184.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16184.97846875,"end":16186.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16187.138468750003,"end":16188.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16189.36596875,"end":16190.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16190.73284375,"end":16192.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16192.94346875,"end":16197.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16197.921593750001,"end":16202.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16202.96721875,"end":16207.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16207.945343750001,"end":16211.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16212.77159375,"end":16214.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16215.690968750001,"end":16217.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16217.817218750002,"end":16218.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16219.082843750002,"end":16220.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16220.95596875,"end":16224.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16224.769718750002,"end":16225.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16226.22096875,"end":16226.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16226.794718750003,"end":16227.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16228.566593750002,"end":16230.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16231.485968750003,"end":16234.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16234.540343750003,"end":16238.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16238.62409375,"end":16242.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16243.281593750002,"end":16247.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16247.702843750001,"end":16250.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16251.38159375,"end":16251.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16253.38971875,"end":16254.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16255.02659375,"end":16257.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16257.60846875,"end":16258.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16259.54909375,"end":16259.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16260.578468750002,"end":16270.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16271.024093750002,"end":16271.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16271.42909375,"end":16278.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16276.69409375,"end":16278.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16279.22534375,"end":16290.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16290.44721875,"end":16290.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16290.71721875,"end":16291.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16291.72971875,"end":16291.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16292.286593750003,"end":16306.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16306.242218750001,"end":16310.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16310.579093750002,"end":16350.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16311.96284375,"end":16313.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16313.481593750003,"end":16313.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16316.046593750001,"end":16316.40096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":131.237,"end":133.361,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":164.462,"end":165.394,"text":"MING PAO CANADA"},{"start":1817.309,"end":1831.36,"text":"報告委員會初期委員14人已經達法定人數我們現在就開始開會本週一、三、四為一次會我們首先要進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上一次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1833.174,"end":1859.209,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會．第3次全體委員會議．事由．中華民國113年3月11日上午9時至11時43分．中華民國113年3月14日上午9時至11時57分．地點本院群閑樓1連1會議室．出席委員．黃孟凱委員等13人．請教委員．柯志溫委員等2人．列席委員．中嘉賓委員等20人．列席人員．3月11日教育部常務次長．林騰甲、翠童有關人員．"},{"start":1860.329,"end":1874.81,"text":"3月14日．國家科學及基礎委員會主任委員．正宗率統有關人員．主席林昭吉委員引進3月11日．報告事項．1.宣讀上次會議事錄．決定議事錄確定2.教育部列席就國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手．"},{"start":1875.991,"end":1897.017,"text":"提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為進行專題報告．並備質詢。本人議程由委員洪孟凱等16人提出質詢．均經教育部常務次長林成角及相關人員即席答覆說明．另由委員克珍等5人提出書面質詢．決定依報告及詢答完畢為委員所提書面質詢．或相關資料列入街路並刊登公報"},{"start":1897.697,"end":1919.629,"text":"三對委員質詢．要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關盡速以順應答覆．通過臨時提案二項．3月14日報告事項．國家科學及技術委員會主任委員．正宗列席．包圍有關看護並備質詢．本議程由委員萬美玲等14人提出質詢．均經國家科學及技術委員會主任委員．正宗及相關人員即席答覆說明．"},{"start":1920.269,"end":1935.894,"text":"利由委員、科資安等5人提出書面質詢．決定一、報告及詢討完畢．二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入介入並刊登公報．三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未解答附部分．請相關機關盡速以書面答覆．通過臨時提案三項．宣讀完畢"},{"start":1938.203,"end":1955.432,"text":"好,因為我們在場的委員沒有達到這個議決人數的三個人所以我們的議事錄暫時不確定那我們今天的議程是邀請教育部、司法院、法務部還有內政部列席就校園暴力事件的處置、少年犯的回歸校園的輔導機制還有前科紀錄是否塗銷我們要來進行專案報告並備質詢那我首先介紹在場的委員好,委員都在"},{"start":1966.397,"end":1966.917,"text":"3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":1992.885,"end":2004.454,"text":"還有我們司法院少年級家事廳的法官傅曉萱﹑還有我們的少年保護官溫逸賢﹑還有我們法務部矯正署的周輝煌署長﹑還有法務部檢察室的主任檢察官朱華君﹑"},{"start":2017.749,"end":2033.969,"text":"謝謝,還有我們校政署的其他同仁我們就不宜介紹還有我們內政部警政署刑事警察局的副局長林信雄副局長謝謝,還有我們衛福部保護司的郭采榮副司長"},{"start":2035.922,"end":2049.275,"text":"還有我們社會及家庭署的蔡淑珍科長謝謝還有謝謝我們其他一起與會的這些相關的同仁謝謝大家那我們現在是不是就請我們的潘部長因為今天報告人數非常的多我們是否請我們的潘部長進行報告報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2058.894,"end":2083.911,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生、各位朋友、大家早今天應邀貴委員會就《校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導措施及前科紀錄是否塗銷》進行專題報告以下僅就校園暴力事件預防及處置跟強化高關懷學生回歸校園輔導機制來進行重點的說明那詳細的再請委員詳參書面的報告"},{"start":2086.572,"end":2111.652,"text":"針對校園暴力事件預防及處置校園安全的維護跟暴力防治向來是教育部局委重視的課題以下就校園安全防護及通報機制跟強化．輔導管教及校園安全檢查的作為說明如下在校園安全防護及通報機制方面教育部訂定校園安全及災害事件通報作為要點維護校園安全實施要點以及校園安全防護注意事項強化校園防護機制實施計畫"},{"start":2114.654,"end":2134.357,"text":"以令學校可以就事前預防、緊急處理﹐外部資源及輔導介入等面向﹐來進行校園安全的預防措施﹐防患以未然。上開校園安全防務的相關措施﹐包括奠定各級學校重大緊急校安事件的處理流程﹐以及警政單位簽署﹐"},{"start":2135.438,"end":2160.391,"text":"維護校園安全資源約定書等．以完善整體校園安全的防護五項規定所指的在認為有必要第三是在教育部亦明定校園安全事件通報作業及處置流程．以作為學校教育人員平時及遭遇突發狀況的行動的準備在強化輔導管教及校園安全檢查的部分"},{"start":2160.971,"end":2179.178,"text":"針對學校訂定校園教師輔導以管教學生辦法注意事項在92年發布以來經過6次的修正此次也因應近期確實有在校園安全上面需要能夠在這方面來重新再做一個整理教育部也組成工作小組"},{"start":2180.699,"end":2195.172,"text":"擴大邀請．包含校長、教師、學生．家長、兒少團體及各縣市政府教育級代表．召開多次的諮詢會議及工作小組會議．進行有關注意事項的．全面性的調整跟整理．在2月5日．"},{"start":2197.454,"end":2220.15,"text":"來發布實施．那本次注意事項．修正是以維護校園安全作為一個前提．並以維護教師的管教權．保障學生相關權益．強化學校及家庭及設政單位的念解．以及強化校園安全檢查機制跟流程等原則．來進行全部條文的修正．並提供學校．訂定教師輔導與管教辦法的參考範本．以協助學校來訂定相關的辦法．"},{"start":2224.753,"end":2239.26,"text":"另外為了保障學生權益．並使校園安全檢查機制更加的明確．也制定校園安全檢查操作的手冊．製作校園安全檢查流程．跟各級學校訂定校園安全檢查規定的範本．來提供給各校參考運用"},{"start":2240.84,"end":2267.594,"text":"並請各校結合每學期開學友善校園周來進行校園安全的先導．也強化各校在處理校園安全事件的應變能力．包含要每個學年都應該要做各項有關校安議題的演練．這方面也能夠讓學校能夠在這方面有提高安全的防治的意識．以及能夠做緊急事件的應變．"},{"start":2269.375,"end":2284.528,"text":"那麼在強化高關懷學生回歸校園輔導機制部分．為完善高關懷學生輔導處域的工作．教育部處在現行法規基礎．持續督導地方政府跟學校來落實執行．並以司法院、行政院相關部會．"},{"start":2285.208,"end":2307.028,"text":"各地方政府及學校代表．就強化個案協助關懷機制．擴充中介教育措施．以及政治學務輔導人力的議題來進行研商．具體的內容說明如下．在督導各地方政府及學校落實偏差行為的．預防跟輔導部分．行政院跟司法院依據少年事件處理法．第86條第4項的規定．"},{"start":2310.51,"end":2325.017,"text":"110年發布有關少年偏差行為預防及輔導的辦法也在同年的3月定定少年偏差行為預防及輔導轉嫌的流程作業圖教育部也持續請各地方政府及主管學校依此來落實"},{"start":2325.717,"end":2348.154,"text":"那麼在強化個案協助關懷機制的部分．若實跨網絡的專業合作．教育部在今年2月2日召開校園安全諮詢會議．那麼針對少事法第42條第5項的規定．所指認為有必要．那麼也具體的建議．當少年有危害他人生命身體之餘的．這樣的一個為條件的特定對象．能夠在"},{"start":2350.155,"end":2379.174,"text":"這個做法上面能夠有一個更明確具體的讓這個參與學校有能夠充分的參與那麼也在這個3月12號跨院的協商平台有達成以下的共識那麼司法院也喊請各少年法院在少年調查官審查調查階段所召開的個案聯繫會議或裁定前少年法院所召開的個案跟資源聯繫會議對於上述的這樣的特定的對象"},{"start":2380.015,"end":2395.013,"text":"應該邀請該個案就讀學校指派適當代表出席說明提案．並與會中進行個案的討論．評估該生是否可直接入校入班．或是因行採行中介教育的措施．例如進入到學校內提供的中介教育中途班．"},{"start":2395.513,"end":2416.505,"text":"或進入社區中介教育的基地．進行適應銜接機制．以協助支援學校．能夠進行個案輔導的措施．那司法院發函促請少年法院．在調查審理跟保護執行期間．學校如認為有上述中介教育需求．以少年法院跟相關機關．依照司法第42條第5項及第6項的．法令召開支援聯繫會議的時候．學校也應該指派適當的人員．"},{"start":2423.549,"end":2436.008,"text":"來參與評估、協商跟決定．有關在多元中介措施的基地．由教育部來協助各縣市政府．共同擴充教育基地的建置跟推動．以協助學生、就學及生活的調適"},{"start":2438.376,"end":2460.172,"text":"有關這部分．現行教育部國教署．針對高關懷學生．已經補助地方政府辦理多元教育輔導的課程．為強化高關懷學生過度中介教育措施．也另外邀請各地方政府、民間團體．共同延長中介服務的這個基地的合作的模式．那麼預計會在今年3月來發布．"},{"start":2462.753,"end":2481.123,"text":"有關補助協助、則小市縣市推動教育基地建置的計畫．各縣市政府也會在5月前．持續來完成相關中介基地的擴充．落實三級預防及輔導工作的部分．也朝政治、學務跟輔導人力．"},{"start":2483.324,"end":2487.248,"text":"提供發展性輔導、介入輔導及處理性的輔導．為提升各級學校．各學校輔導人力資源跟量能．"},{"start":2502.524,"end":2506.286,"text":"高中以下也朝向增加專業輔導人力的方向來做規劃．在現行捷輔法的規範之下．來增補相關的專輔的人力高中已經完成了人力的增補"},{"start":2521.152,"end":2523.494,"text":"國中會在114學年度來完成．國小則從120學年度提升到116學年度．而未來要增加的這些．輔導教師的人力跟文報告．人數是超過2000人．會依照這樣的期程逐步來增加．"},{"start":2540.991,"end":2544.272,"text":"學校也反映在有關學務工作的負擔．這部分在經過的討論也分階段來進行．會補助高級中等以下學校．協助學務輔導工作教師來檢授授課的結束．"},{"start":2557.777,"end":2572.307,"text":"那另外也會依照現行國民小學及國民中學﹐班級編制跟教職員嚴格編制的規定﹐那麼對於比較大型的學校61班以上﹐原來可增加1到3名的學務處的副組長﹐那麼在這個階段教育部會先行來"},{"start":2577.852,"end":2602.637,"text":"針對這方面來學制這些大型學校優先能夠來聘任有關副組長的職務那也會來修訂有關國民小學跟國民中學班級編制教職員掩耳編制目標是希望除了剛才所說的60班以上那在幾個階段確實學務的人力負擔工作繁重也會在修訂這個準則來逐一的"},{"start":2604.757,"end":2604.917,"text":"．3月18日及21日"},{"start":2626.235,"end":2650.626,"text":"還有我們包含這次有關司法院相關的這些體系能夠建立起這樣的一個更好的網絡讓第一線的學校在面對這樣的學生的安置的時候能夠有一個更好的支持的力量也來協助老師做輔導管教的這樣的工作以上報告謝謝好我們非常謝謝潘部長的口頭報告我們接下來謝謝我們接下來是不是我們請司法院的謝廳長來進行報告我們報告時間6分鐘好嗎謝謝廳長"},{"start":2661.089,"end":2669.662,"text":"司法院警就今天關於校園暴力事件的處置的部分跟司法院有關的部分來跟各位提出一個專題報告"},{"start":2671.044,"end":2694.383,"text":"首先我必須要提出來就是說其實維護每一個學生跟兒少他們的身心健全是憲法明定的國家的保護義務這個大概是從不管是後來的103年我們把兒童權利公約內閣法化之後它所涉及的對家庭教育對學生的輔導包括對於教育的平等"},{"start":2696.443,"end":2719.629,"text":"有些孩子需要特殊教育這些身心特殊需求的孩子其實都是給一個國家應該賦予每一個家長其實他的孩子都有享有這樣的一個適性教育的一個權利那如何做到呢我想在整個剛剛教育部潘部長的說明當中可以看到以下我大概僅就司法院負責主責的少事法"},{"start":2720.149,"end":2744.401,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到對於少年偏差行為的處理機制呢目前少年事件少年法院大概分配給司法院這裡其實有兩個類一類呢是曝險行為也就是說是我們的少司法的第三條一項二款它規範的有三類那其中有一類呢比如說他如果無故經常攜帶危險器械那這個大概都會列為目前"},{"start":2744.941,"end":2771.943,"text":"行政輔導先行．也就是去年7月1日上路．會由內政部警政署的少年輔導委員會主政．但是各地方政府首長必須要統合教育．保護體系還有其他的包含勞動．也就是就業這個部分去協助每一個少年在偏差行為．就是我們在兒權公寓的國際專家．也就是我們的國家報告．要求司法院要廢除愚犯"},{"start":2772.803,"end":2793.985,"text":"目前我們其實在輔導先行上路已經超過半年這部分我們其實跟內政部也一直持續的在針對少輔會型的輔導先行的一個實施的狀況來去做一個滾動式的一個檢討各地的也會由地方政府跟地方法院會做一個這樣一個定期的聯繫的會議司法院跟"},{"start":2794.986,"end":2808.853,"text":"行政院就由剛剛部長說的我們跟行政院在林政委的一個就是主政之下會跟司法院對這個部分也都會有定期的檢討機制那第二類是少年的觸法行為比如少年竊盜"},{"start":2810.374,"end":2811.595,"text":"．3月18日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":2830.528,"end":2852.503,"text":"也就是說少年法院在校園暴力的這一題依照我們目前的機關效能的分責處理就是由剛剛潘部長提到的上次86條第4項有規範一個偏差行為的預防跟輔導辦法那這裡面其實有一部分是由少府會或者是由教育部的學生輔導法去進行這個三級的輔導"},{"start":2855.965,"end":2871.112,"text":"有剛剛我提到的曝險行為跟觸法行為才會由這個少年法院來去做一個主責這大概是一個前提性的說明那第二點要做一個報告的是因為今天的時間有限那其他的詳細內容降入我們的書面報告"},{"start":2872.132,"end":2887.33,"text":"第二個部分要讓大家知道就是少年法院我們的一個know-how就是這個案子移送到法院之後法院設置有少年調查官其實就是像我們今天有到場的溫逸賢的調保官他其實會進行法官會請他提出一個調查報告"},{"start":2892.876,"end":2917.179,"text":"那會去做家庭訪視、瞭解家庭功能再來就是會進行學校的一個受教育的情形還有其中更重要的是這個少年有沒有一些人格或者是一些教育需要特別協助的部分那就會去展開跟學校之間的這個溝通或者是保護系統的這個一個相關的聯繫那就可以用到剛剛部長有提到的少數法42條的五項"},{"start":2918.98,"end":2920.862,"text":"若做成保護處分後,在執行階段也會召開資源聯繫會議,適時調整18歲以下的學生各項協助及輔導"},{"start":2935.999,"end":2957.177,"text":"包括如果說這個少年飛行跟父母的一個疏忽教養是有關聯性的那少子法有一個去補充兒權法的一個就是由保護系統裁定的強制性親子教育那少子法有一個司法型的強制性親子教育那這也是這段時間以來各界一直很關心的"},{"start":2958.258,"end":2975.393,"text":"我把最後一點時間來提到我們在報告的第5頁以下對於教育機關的輔導機制也就是教育端有學生輔導法但是一旦少年法院介入之後大概我們就會請各行政機關包含警政"},{"start":2975.953,"end":2995.481,"text":"教育還有衛政還有我們的保護系統能夠去在司法的這個整合資源之下能夠配合來去協商出依照我們調查官評估出來的少年的虛保性也就是這個成長中的孩子他各個面向是需要國家怎麼樣來協助他的一個就學的這個需要"},{"start":2996.381,"end":3016.428,"text":"除了透過這個部分的資源聯繫會議之後．剛剛其實部長有提到．如果在符合學生的一個適性教育之下．可以採取中介教育措施．現在教育部因應這個校園安全的需要．也在拓展多元跟漸進式的中介教育措施．只要這個少年符合．"},{"start":3017.028,"end":3037.269,"text":"每一個這個就是我們法院的評估大概都可以去進入這樣的一個就是評估的當中那這個部分也要請各位能夠去做一個瞭解那等一下如果針對塗銷的部分那有委員全群我們再進一步目前SARS把修正我們是朝向就是要去增加少年的前案資料塗銷的條件"},{"start":3038.71,"end":3066.236,"text":"那舉例來說如果他受刑的宣告執行完畢三年內必須是他沒有再有處罰那其實才能夠去塗銷他的請安紀錄以上請各位能夠這個就是明白謝謝好非常謝謝謝謝廷長等一下我們要去委員有任何的需要詢問的話再請您做詳細的說明那我們現在場內有已經有三位委員到了所以我們是不是先確定一下上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或是遺漏之處"},{"start":3067.156,"end":3075.293,"text":"如果沒有的話那我們就議事錄確定等等我們現在還是要再請一下我們矯正法務部的矯正署的周署長來進行一下報告謝謝"},{"start":3085.939,"end":3110.437,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進大家好我是法務部矯正署署長周慧芳本部的專題緊究觸法少年跟暴嫌少年的相關法律規定的處置以及在所及在校學生的輔導、少年的輔導機制的部分來做一個報告"},{"start":3111.238,"end":3130.774,"text":"那因為我們前半段的部分．有關處法復選少年的法令規定的處置．是由我們法務部的主任檢察官來做報告．後面的輔導機制就由本人來做報告．那讓我們朱檢察官來做報告．謝謝"},{"start":3137.606,"end":3163.734,"text":"張偉,各位委員以及與會先進大家好那緊就校園暴力事件以及前科紀錄是否塗銷部分進行報告那依照少事法的規定,少年事件分為曝險事件以及處罰事件那曝險事件的部分呢,執法人員只有曝險事件的時候就要通知少福會來做處理那執法人員只有處罰事件的時候就要移送到少年法院來做一個辦理"},{"start":3165.855,"end":3181.726,"text":"司法警察機關在移送出法事件至少年法院之前．可以依照《少事法》規定．或準用《刑事訴訟法》規定．以及準用《通保法》規定來進行相關調查．依照去年剛通過的《少事法》第18-7條的立法說明．"},{"start":3185.048,"end":3202.093,"text":"警察官在辦理這個相關的刑事調查案件的時候刑事偵查案件的時候如果只有少年處罰事件就應該要立刻移送到少年法院那不能夠針對這個少年再進行偵查那少年法院取得這樣子案件了以後他經過相關的調查"},{"start":3203.713,"end":3231.829,"text":"可以依《校事法》第27條的相關規定將這個案件再移送回地檢署那地檢署檢察官在這時候受理了就必須進行偵查然後並照偵查的結果來做一個起訴或不起訴處分那另外就是少年處罰事件的被害人呢如果有死亡或受重傷的情況的話可以依《犯保法》的規定來申請補償金那我們的犯保協會及在地分會也會提供相關的保護措施"},{"start":3232.469,"end":3258.043,"text":"那如果少年處罰事件的被害人他沒有死亡也沒有受重傷當然依奉保法的相關規定也可以獲得相關的保護措施那本部在去年少事法通過然後施行以後我們有做一些相關的教育訓練來提升檢警對少事法的認識那我們的奉保協會及在地分會也隨時在接獲通知之後都可以即時啟動保護機制提供保護服務"},{"start":3260.024,"end":3264.225,"text":"前科紀錄是否塗銷、是否廢除或修正這事涉上年保護政策是屬於司法院主管事項本部尊重司法院權責"},{"start":3285.977,"end":3314.494,"text":"謝謝我們的朱主任檢察官所以我們的署長還要額外再做一些補充後續的說明就對了是,是,謝謝主席我們少年矯正學校收容的是處罰的少年那在所的在校的輔導機制可以講在少年關護所的部分我們分別辦理鑑別、留置觀察還有收容保護還有所謂的羈押羈押是收容少年我們叫收容少年被告"},{"start":3315.334,"end":3333.021,"text":"那他在少關所只要是做的是少年鑑別工作比如說進行一些身心評估還有他的行為的觀察另外要落實他的基本生活教育就是說一些生活適應能力還有一些人際關係的互動學習經由團體生活來培養他們的一個人際關係的再加強"},{"start":3338.683,"end":3362.599,"text":"另外就是說要培養他的正確的社會生活的態度另外也會要辦理特殊教育資能以及實務的工作、演習的交流等等那在我們的矯正學校裡面來講我們會有所謂的三級輔導先有所謂的發展性的輔導這發展性輔導是針對全校的學生"},{"start":3363.799,"end":3381.665,"text":"如果說針對這個發展性輔導可能有些學生還是會有一些無法滿足他的個別需求或是適應欠佳重複發生問題的話或是有遭受比較重大創傷經驗的這些學生我們會依他的個別化需求來訂定相關方案"},{"start":3382.205,"end":3399.222,"text":"那經過這個所謂的進入性輔導．那有少數的學生他還是無法有效協助．我們會給他做一個特殊的心理治療．還有社會工作、生理治療等等以上是那包括出手轉嫌最後補充一下"},{"start":3400.484,"end":3418.963,"text":"進來我們少關所我們是三天內會通知社區的學校但是他出所的話我們會儘快所謂儘快是說我們會用電話或是傳真來跟社區的學校做聯繫那少角校的話是在他學生進來的時候"},{"start":3421.185,"end":3432.896,"text":"我們也是大概三個月之內會啟動相關的個別廚藝那他出校的話也是五天內我們會通知相關的人體學校來做銜接謝謝"},{"start":3435.543,"end":3443.933,"text":"好 我們謝謝周署長還有我們朱警察官的口頭報告我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員詢答的時間是8分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘列席委員質詢的時間為5分鐘那發言登記的截止時間是上午10點30分"},{"start":3453.644,"end":3474.338,"text":"如果委員有臨時提案的話就請在10點30分前提出並於本委員這個本委員會的委員范雲質詢結束之後我們就會進行處理處理提案的時候若提案委員還有聯署的委員都不在場的話我們原理不予處理我們是不是首先請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":3480.933,"end":3485.631,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們有請潘文忠部長以及矯正署周輝煌署長"},{"start":3491.829,"end":3513.199,"text":"委員早部長早我想往年我們都知道7月是對於學生們的一個考記但現在看起來3月這個考記更嚴重那就是3月份現在幾乎都是私校大爆滿那這幾天幾乎是本席了解的臺北市、桃園市所有私立學校都在考試人數之多之可怕的不知道部長有沒有看到"},{"start":3514.359,"end":3530.829,"text":"這個整個私校的錄取率從少的大概10%左右多的大概到23%、24%真的是窄門中的窄門那為什麼大家通通要去考私校而且從過去到現在人數值增不減那錄取率只是一直在往下降"},{"start":3531.249,"end":3550.892,"text":"我想從過去對於這個公立體制家長的不信任以及108信課堂上來他們覺得的壓力那到了這個現在整個教育現場上很多的問題特別是在最近校安的問題我想這些在在都是造成私立學校考試大爆滿的一個原因所以因此今天本席就來討論"},{"start":3551.733,"end":3577.586,"text":"也是今天召委所排的主題關於我們的校安在去年12月25日也就是國中校園的割井案我想那一天震驚了所有不管教育界、全國人民的心我想都受傷了我相信部長也不好受但是我們今天來討論也就是說這個割井案的犯行人他其實是從少關所出來然後返回校園去了"},{"start":3579.367,"end":3593.536,"text":"其實這個案子發生以後到現在我相信教育部也好、各學校也好其實本系也跟很多教育界的人去討論過這樣的一個議題我們發現事實上在司法機關跟教育機關的橫向聯繫是非常薄弱的"},{"start":3594.677,"end":3594.937,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3615.566,"end":3615.646,"text":"5天的時間內"},{"start":3631.295,"end":3638.921,"text":"現在學校不管是校園的人力、輔導人力、行政人力其實都不足你突然間有這樣的一個個案回到學校來而這個通知只有五天的時間怎麼有辦法做好一個應對那當然部長"},{"start":3647.368,"end":3667.227,"text":"現在教育部也去思考怎麼樣去應對這個問題我們看到國教署提出了一個計畫說補助地方政府推動中介教育基地的建制計畫部長您在之前也有提到目前已經有設置了88個這樣的中介教育基地預計3月來啟動"},{"start":3669.369,"end":3669.469,"text":"88個有在協助相關"},{"start":3684.985,"end":3688.949,"text":"這些等於說有點像我們需要高關懷學生的團體但是我們評估討論之後有33個團體是具有過去接觸、協助、互顯少年的這個才是我們要合作的對象因為我也知道我們現在中途的階段有好幾個有學校的辭彙班、有高關懷班甚至有在跟社區有13個縣市的那種合作中途班"},{"start":3710.269,"end":3714.316,"text":"這些都還不是暴險少年我們現在要強化的是真正暴險少年所以這一次剛才跟委員報告這邊所談到的會在月底跟五月讓來做的就是要協調來建置這個針對暴險少年的中介基地"},{"start":3725.333,"end":3731.216,"text":"但是現在這樣聽起來我想我們都理解教育現場現在的狀況也就是說現階段這88個可能有很多過去已經在做在協助的這些團體但是恐怕那個強度是不夠的所以我們現在這88個是過去既有的團體我們在做這樣子的一個協助但角色上面"},{"start":3744.744,"end":3762.139,"text":"至於現在我們校安這個有很多我們沒有辦法想像到的狀況而且是嚴重的狀況所以現在我們要來補助各地方政府來做中介教育基地那本席也知道之前你們也找了這個直轄市的這個教育局那我不知道縣市有沒有"},{"start":3762.679,"end":3770.68,"text":"有大家一起來討論那現在呢當天在討論的時候其實並沒有壓時間但現在本席看到了書裡面意思講說3月中就是3月我們現在這個計畫出來嘛那我們要開始這個發布怎麼去補助但5月就要地方政府去完成那現在地方政府都在跟我講說各教育局說3月現在出來那天討論完以後啊只有一些初估的計畫那經費怎麼補助怎麼做那到底這個強度要做到多強"},{"start":3791.624,"end":3806.312,"text":"那通通沒有那現在5月就要成立了你這個是喔你們喊一個口號跟政策出來雖然利益良善但你通通丟給這個地方政府他哪有辦法這樣去執行這是第一件事第二個喔還有一件事你們可能忽略了喔那也就是說"},{"start":3806.792,"end":3821.478,"text":"今天呢 少關所裡面的少年到底出來以後有多少是要到哪一個縣市去到哪一個學校去你們現在 你們應該說都沒有一個跟司法單位很好的一個銜接這個量沒有 請問一下 這個標案怎麼標"},{"start":3822.679,"end":3836.283,"text":"我今天是要標少關所出來是一個學生十個學生還是二十個學生沒有所以現在呢你們那天開完會以後到現在各地教育局可以說不要說他們沒有開始啦不知道怎麼開始所以這是第二個問題喔那麼第三個問題喔部長請教喔也就是說剛才其實我們有聽到啊校政署啦或者是我們蔣下官都有提喔"},{"start":3846.266,"end":3871.581,"text":"我們在這個少關所也好矯正學校也好我相信都有它一定的功能在可是看起來這個功能對於少關所的孩子出來以後我們要返回學校中間的銜接它還是產生問題了嘛那所以我們才想說要做這個中介教育基地但是這個基地跟我們在矯正學校跟在少關所裡面的功能怎麼區分又我們當這些孩子回到這個校園以後"},{"start":3873.362,"end":3893.772,"text":"中介基地以後什麼時候才可以離開什麼時候才能夠進去看起來那天開會都沒有這些細節部長請說明你真的了解好深入我跟你們報告一下第一個擴充中介基地這件事情教育部、國教署已經跟縣市開過三次的會議其實討論到很細很多縣市也很急因為都知道"},{"start":3894.272,"end":3894.612,"text":"委員提到很關鍵也是學校最擔心的"},{"start":3919.994,"end":3945.808,"text":"這個孩子在少保官或少教官進行調查或要做裁決的時候一定要讓尤其說有傷害他人生命跟身體之餘的這樣的特定對象要讓學校充分參與所以這個才是在源頭裡面我們能夠評估比較更客觀的來看可以做怎麼樣的安置才不會說貿然弄到學校去可能會造成其他學生、同學、師生的"},{"start":3947.949,"end":3973.802,"text":"這是在這一次在跨院的會議裡面我覺得是一個非常重要的突破也反映了學校他們最擔心的事情這個目前也確定我跟委員報告這次我也很謝謝司法院他們在事辦有一個高風險保護對象的這些事辦計畫其實這裡面很多的概念就是委員關心的他到底應該分級分類而且不是說裁決啦後面"},{"start":3974.562,"end":3980.504,"text":"也要再持續關心因為這些孩子的行為要一點時間那剛剛北下一個問題最重要的問題就是現在這個中介基地我們要招標嘛要一個標案出去嘛不管是給哪一個團體那量能我們到底要用多大量能去招標那我想這個署長在這裡那剛剛特別提到出關所的地方其實我一直在想"},{"start":3997.771,"end":4011.576,"text":"就是司法單位跟教育單位到底你們的銜接是不是應該要再縝密一點那麼從少關所出來的孩子到了教育的這個領域回到學校我們怎樣才接得住他現在看起來有接不住的狀況那所以"},{"start":4013.637,"end":4033.203,"text":"我覺得少關所這些保護官或調查官也好有時候有自己的想法過去我們還希望不要把這些孩子標圈化或他的個資、隱私等等怎麼樣在顧及的情況之下來到你所謂的中介教育基地那這個量能怎麼做現在標案各縣市教育局怎麼標"},{"start":4034.143,"end":4042.067,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個是我們要他成立基地的原因不是說你已經設定好他一定會有多少人但是如果你不做好這個準備當我們開始進行剛才委員提到的當少調官開始進行我們最後才覺得說這個孩子的"},{"start":4049.331,"end":4058.654,"text":"行為樣態適合到社區的中介基地你不能不做準備所以現在目前在做的是這件事那委員那個司法院的那個事辦計畫其實裡面非常重要的剛才委員提到出去到底適不適合進到學校這個裡頭是有我們這樣的一個計畫裡面它其實裡面有談到這裡頭會有相關的社工人員或心理心腹的輔助員"},{"start":4074.178,"end":4074.458,"text":"520到了以後呢你就要把這個"},{"start":4104.145,"end":4104.826,"text":"五二零五中分"},{"start":4118.766,"end":4128.893,"text":"學校裡面 國小、國中或高中各級學校的暴力事件跟偏差行為通報案件數我看了真的覺得好難過從111年到112年我們看到國小從過去的4828件竟然暴增到9370件成長了將近兩倍那麼所有學校加起來111年是16264件112年也成長到26171件"},{"start":4145.725,"end":4146.245,"text":"好,這順便有提到,我們再詳細的再跟委員說"},{"start":4170.66,"end":4183.133,"text":"好,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝萬委員接下來我們請登記第二號的陳培宇委員,謝謝好,謝謝主席,那有請部長好,部長"},{"start":4186.836,"end":4203.349,"text":"委員早部長早前兩天不知道部長晚上有沒有看到一個新聞就是一個社工被上手銬這件事情我不知道部長過去您的工作經驗當中有沒有認識很多像社工這樣子的第一線的基層的工作人員但是那一天晚上我收到非常多社工朋友的電話"},{"start":4204.17,"end":4232.831,"text":"甚至還有在耳保社工背後的心理師兩三個心理師打電話給我說他們不知道接下來這個禮拜要怎麼面對這些第一線的耳保社工那於是呢我們可以看到東海社工系就發了一封信給系上的同學當然也是給未來可能想要念社工的同學因為孩子們的學測剛考完準備開始填志願部長您身為教育部長你要不要對這些孩子這些同學或是在第一線的社工給予一些信心的承諾或者是喊話"},{"start":4234.072,"end":4251.34,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個就是因為保姆戀童的事件這個整個社會大家都很心痛也很震驚那確實為那則新聞畫面我有看到在第一時間確實會有很也很震撼因為我所了解我們的社工"},{"start":4251.86,"end":4267.747,"text":"同仁不只在學校,其實在地方服務也接觸很多社工的夥伴其實真的都是衝第一線的在面對學校學生甚至有部分是家庭有情形的時候其實他們真的是承擔非常多的"},{"start":4268.207,"end":4291.555,"text":"應該是說這些兒保社工其實尤其幫忙承擔了教育部在照顧的國小學生、國中學生、高中學生他們的原生家庭或是社區環境失去功能的時候其實是這些兒保社工幫我們教育部在社區接住了這些孩子所以我才要在這裡要拜託部長給予目前或者是未來想要繼續從事社工或是想要在這個領域發揮自己的專業"},{"start":4293.555,"end":4317.26,"text":"發會自己的這個專長的時候我覺得我們要作為他們的職程所以後續這件事情我們也會協助相關的系所在跟教育部持續保持討論那當然後來衛福部又提到了關於這個兒童專責醫生的部分那我相信也相關的醫學院我想部長你也知道兒童已經是很缺的醫生的科目了對不對我相信教育部在相關的事情上都必須要有所態度跟有所表示對嗎"},{"start":4318.36,"end":4320.602,"text":"因為醫學系出來很多學生的志願選填確實所看到兒科的部分在醫院都有反應有不足的情形那教育部也跟衛福部也在這方面有提出一些因應尤其是衛福部這邊有一些激勵的因素"},{"start":4340.594,"end":4346.518,"text":"教育部及衛福部必須在這件事上加強對話新北割喉案在3月21日裁定部長您覺得孩子們不管之後的判定到底是要送到矯正學校、少關或相關保護管束的機制學校準備好了嗎?"},{"start":4364.248,"end":4364.408,"text":"面對這些處罰少年"},{"start":4387.453,"end":4395.035,"text":"反省或有一些偏差的行為暴嫌的少年是否適合直接進回學校或應該安置其實在這一次裡面是一個非常強調的重點應該是說過往我們只要看到有類似的新聞事件確實教育部會聯同其他的跨部會趕快提出所謂正面因應的資源跟策略但是我覺得我們都在教育現場待過我今天必須要殘忍地問部長一個問題"},{"start":4412.981,"end":4430.403,"text":"其實我們都準備好了我們看似我們都準備好了但是我們必須要承認在第一線的現場有非常多不利於學生回歸校園的因素我想部長你心裡應該非常明白跟清楚我們到底要如何排除這些因素我們除了正面做非常多的支持跟資源之外"},{"start":4430.703,"end":4446.596,"text":"但是面對這些校園裡面騎士的氣氛同儕啊或是社會的氣氛還有老師如何看待學生老師是不是真的覺得教育部有跟他們站在一起準備迎接這樣子孩子的回到校園我覺得這件事情應該沒有辦法在今天討論完但是我務必要從第一線的教學經驗"},{"start":4447.817,"end":4467.612,"text":"提醒部長也要拜託教育部在協同跨部會在討論這件事情的時候我覺得我們不能再逃避面對的是不利於學生回歸校園的因素我覺得這是非常沉重的提問那我想今天就不再多問但是要拜託教育部積極面對這件事情我必須要再一次強調這是殘酷的現實但如果不去面對這個現實我們很難想像學校老師會如何看待後續這些孩子們回到校園"},{"start":4473.777,"end":4481.342,"text":"或是教育部給這些正面的資源跟政策．是不是真的可以落實到第一線老師的家長跟學生．都同時有覺得受到照顧?以上我跟委員報告．確實這次在討論的情形．不只是剛才跟委員會委員們報告．我們跟跨院．包含司法院的這些未來合作跟機制．司法院也會再有這樣的事辦計畫去擴大"},{"start":4496.932,"end":4501.575,"text":"有關真的跟這些暴險少年非常需要的人力跟他的專業這個我想在上緣上面真的會做比較更適切的討論跟判斷那在學校端這一部分我想我們除了增加必要的人力之外其實我們還不斷的去強化因為這樣的孩子不是每個都是一定造成那種傷害有些孩子可能是對"},{"start":4521.966,"end":4529.491,"text":"他的樣態行為也不是說完完全全一定要隔離以校園所以我們在中途的過程當中其實是有幾個不同的那這邊我就往下再跟部長討論但是我再次要強調這個問題非常重要那於是我們往下來看教育部其實在相關的校園暴、校安事件統計當中資料我們看到非常多其中我們發現在不同的學制不同的事件相關的統計其實教育部在相關的報告裡面都有"},{"start":4547.182,"end":4547.483,"text":"教育部的結論"},{"start":4563.283,"end":4579.609,"text":"縱觀本項暴力跟偏差事件資料分析發現．高級中等學校的暴力事件．跟偏差行為通報發生率仍然是最高依序是國小跟國中．那教育部自己都說了．應該持續探討事件發生的原因跟防制之道．"},{"start":4579.989,"end":4602.454,"text":"也就是說我們在整份報告裡面只有看到這麼一段話是教育部自己知道相關的因應跟防制措施所以我們也希望在今天所有的業務報告當中我們除了看到後續很多所謂捕破網的動作之外到底積極如何防範少安事件再度一再一再一再的發生我相信具體的策略不管是做持續探討的研究或者是後續專家學者的討論把孩子們的第一線的現場狀況反映出來就如同我剛剛說的那個問題非常重要"},{"start":4609.895,"end":4639.615,"text":"那往後我要跟部長談另外一個事情其實這裡是很多第一線的老師甚至是這個矯正學校的校長跟我們分析的我們來看相關的研究報告說在少年犯的非語文測驗跟一般少年沒有顯著差異可是少年犯的語文理解能力卻比一般少年來的低也就是他們在抽象推理思考上可能是因為原生家庭環境的文化資源累積能力不足導致於孩子去到學校之後對於抽象推理思考能力表現比較不好再往下看第二個"},{"start":4640.175,"end":4668.778,"text":"那部長你一定知道在學校第一線的現場因為學術成績的不佳可能導致某些老師或是同學會在這些孩子身上貼標籤於是孩子可能就走得越來越遠離這個所謂主流學術學習越來越遠於是我們就看到犯罪跟偏差行為可能就會開始出現高峰是15到16歲往上到23歲但是我們看到第一線很多老師告訴我們當五六年級所謂學術科目開始變難的時候很多孩子就開始表現出偏差行為"},{"start":4669.538,"end":4680.145,"text":"實際上大部分是來自家庭資源的不足他們甚且認為到了後期不管是從司法端、法務部或是矯正學校看到這些孩子其實都有特教的"},{"start":4681.417,"end":4681.597,"text":"．3月18日及21日"},{"start":4700.987,"end":4717.375,"text":"所以我這裡用一個隱性特教的部分就是拜託教育部是不是後續我們要積極的規劃跟去理解目前所謂這些偏差行為的少年他們是不是有沒有被看見的特教特質在身上導致於他們在學習上有困難他們在表現主流學習的科目上也有困難"},{"start":4717.915,"end":4735.229,"text":"於是他們就不得不往另外一個可能可以接受他們所謂黑幫的文化去那我相信這個部分部長跟署長你們都來自第一線教育基層一定可以明白我說這個部分所以這個隱形特教部分是不是可以請部長簡單回應一下是 我跟我們報告謝謝委員我想在學習表現這個確實會去影響孩子成就感"},{"start":4738.812,"end":4760.33,"text":"還有他對這整個學校文化的歸屬感和認同所以校園部所提的那個學習輔助計畫其實現在已經都是在從月小年紀就開始也比較希望能夠在這上面不要讓孩子在最基礎的學習上就開始產生委員所說的一直在隱藏著他未來發展的限制這是第一點跟委員報告這也是一個我認為很必要的雖然你們這麼狂說"},{"start":4762.432,"end":4768.793,"text":"這次委員知道在特教法這次的修還有我們所要提供更多特教的資源上面為什麼希望能夠更好的去關照包括進級也有部分特教的孩子因為情緒失控去打老師等等的這些現象"},{"start":4788.578,"end":4788.918,"text":"我們就先不要再講特交助理"},{"start":4803.643,"end":4823.15,"text":"我想在後續特教的很多相關執法跟實施辦法當中我們辦公室會積極再跟教育部討論如何幫助這群所謂隱形特教的孩子就是他的家長看不出來老師在繁忙的教學工作當中也看不出來可能就只有看到孩子外在的行為偏差這個部分也要拜託教育部持續跟我們一起關注不好意思再給我最後一點點時間"},{"start":4824.15,"end":4841.19,"text":"就是關於這個中介剛剛那個萬美玲委員已經問了可是我們想要問這個中介基地目前我們看到最大的困境就是相關的服務量能相關的專業人員是不是都可以入法把相關這些該配置的東西都配置進去再來呢這個中介教育其實有現場的老師告訴我們另外一個困境"},{"start":4841.71,"end":4870.186,"text":"中介教育在聯繫會議一決實施之後相關控管的機制要如何建立跟運作剛冠美林委員問了類似的問題還有就是目前校官所出到學校端都只有說得召開相關會議但是第一線老師告訴我們必要的時候必須要召開聯繫會議是必要喔必須而不是得召開聯繫會議那我相信現場的困境部長跟署長您一定知道這邊我們就做一個快速的提醒我們之後會再跟教育部持續的討論我跟委員報告"},{"start":4870.926,"end":4898.32,"text":"為什麼這次不是只有教育體系、學校體系在協助為什麼能夠跟司法院有做這個連結那個少保官、少調官其實在這個案子裁決後安置的連結後面其實他們應該如果從司法院的報告那是一個非常重要一道還有強制的這個後續我們會再跟部長討論這個是關鍵這個如果不連結像司法院所提有這些高風險的個案不可能由學校單一處理單獨承受"},{"start":4900.441,"end":4925.276,"text":"好那最後一個就是關於學輔法的部分我想要跟部長討論一下目前矯正學校的孩子他們是不適用學校輔導法這個部分我覺得後續我們應該會有很多時間跟機會必須要談論他們畢竟還是未成年的學生雖然他們在法務司法院的系統當中但是其實第一線老師跟校長主任告訴我們這些孩子不能被排除在學輔法以外我相信這是我們大人要繼續努力的事情好嗎部長好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席"},{"start":4928.603,"end":4937.688,"text":"好,謝謝陳培宇委員,請部長回座那我們下一位請柯智恩委員、柯昭偉質詢謝謝主席,我是不是可以請教育部的潘部長、司法院的家事廳的廳長、法務部的代表還有內政部的警察、刑事警察局的副局長請各位,好不好?"},{"start":4958.622,"end":4965.071,"text":"請教育部潘部長、司法院謝廷長、法務部矯正署的周署長、刑事局林副局長"},{"start":4968.183,"end":4995.385,"text":"好,非常謝謝各位為什麼請這麼多人過來我想我們大多非常關切我們所謂的校園的安全我覺得今天真是一個Blue Monday為什麼八樓在討論受虐兒然後我們在一樓在討論校園暴力的事件一個孩子在我們台灣的社會要讓他安全的成長是牽動非常多人的心思那我一直認為今日的少年犯如果我們不好好的處理的話明日就會變成成年犯"},{"start":4995.885,"end":5014.416,"text":"所以我們如果剛剛大家一直不斷在討論漏接不希望發生事情來漏接我們就先來討論一下如何來對接還有誰該要來承接我們先來看一下下面一個數據我們想這個部分裏面我們一年受理保護管束的人大概有1萬多這是一個數據顯示那是2020年統計受理14316人但是只有5330人是交付保護管束"},{"start":5024.722,"end":5048.706,"text":"大概只有占37%．而且我們依照我們剛剛一直不斷提到的．少府會的工作報告．說實在的．在2023年7月到11月．少府會只收到541案．而且開案輔導只有302案．保護的這麼多．然後受理的這麼多．然後再加上你們所承接的．我想請問各位．這些孩子到哪裡接受保護管束．"},{"start":5050.134,"end":5063.891,"text":"然後呢去到哪裡去有很多社工還有我簡單的問一句各位你們彼此這些單位來自不同的單位你們彼此熟嗎你們彼此有對接嗎這才是我要的問題好不好請各位很快時間告訴我一下"},{"start":5065.564,"end":5080.92,"text":"跟委員報告因為教育部是學校這個體系確實我們在跟警政單位、衛福單位在過往在這一方面是比較有定期長期的這樣的一個會議而且包含我們說涉及毒品濫用跟警政單位之間"},{"start":5081.5,"end":5092.57,"text":"委員長沒有問題你可以有很多的說法我剛剛聽了很多你們的報告每個都覺得自己好像給孩子在發生事情的時候做了很多的妥善的處理我們就直接問我們刑事局的副局長好了我們目前來說我們修了這個少年事件的處理法我們成立了少府會"},{"start":5099.075,"end":5104.779,"text":"欸 少府會沒人沒錢沒資源位階又很低有些縣市的少府會根本就跑到警察局的少年隊千萬欸 你們少年隊這麼神嗎處理這麼多事你有沒有看到那個法規裡面這麼多的事情我想請問一下有些地方請問一下警政署你們的少年隊有沒有辦法承接這些事"},{"start":5121.033,"end":5136.601,"text":"謝謝委員的關心和提問有關於少婦會的部分目前它從110年代我知道我說你們我現在只問少婦會要承接這麼多的事情有些縣市單位根本沒有成立把它直接丟到你們的警政署下面的一個少年隊有沒有這種事有嗎"},{"start":5137.921,"end":5154.193,"text":"稍微目前我們人力除了運用社安網的人力來增加以及各縣市政府我們從114年到現在已經增加260名的一個成功當然我們希望繼續我現在就是說孩子越生越少少年犯是越來越多就是我們所謂的問題我剛剛只問到了我們不要漏接但是對接的問題在哪裡你看連我們在八樓被我們"},{"start":5160.798,"end":5167.561,"text":"被我們叫質詢的衛福部都可以提出來他說稍委會的專案對接是有落差的案量非常的低而且很多的縣市根本不願意提供這個偏差行為的個案輔導還有很多縣市根本拒絕這個接受這個所謂先超輔導的這個個案有沒有這種事情那有這種事情的話司法院該怎麼樣來處理你成立這麼多委員會卻沒有辦法對接這要怎麼來處理"},{"start":5186.898,"end":5207.13,"text":"報告委員,據我所知,我們目前地方的縣市的少府會並沒有拒絕相關的一個輔導工作在增加的年齡上,我們目前是應該可以承接有關少年法院或是少年公務所他們的...你們沒有拒接,你們卻把這東西可能丟到別的地方去然後我只問嘛,剛剛我們少府會所要承接的這麼多的狀況,你們有能力嗎?你們少年隊就是抓警、抓小偷、抓嫌疑犯還有時間來處理這些心理諮商、輔導、社工"},{"start":5216.576,"end":5216.776,"text":"3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":5246.559,"end":5259.81,"text":"人力不足我現在發現每一次早上一出事都是說我們的這個缺的一個人力我們現在只要來看看但是呢法院的人力不足跟暴險少年回歸校園這是兩碼的事情我們先看下面一個數據對我個人來說彼此之間沒有對接才是讓這事件沒有會被漏接的最大的原因我們來看一看嘛這是根據你們的資料顯示"},{"start":5271.28,"end":5285.265,"text":"目前高風險的案件還有966件這是少年法庭告訴我們的我想請問部長你知道這966件的這些人有多少在學校嗎如果你們彼此熟彼此都可以互相來做對接你知道這些有多少在學校嗎"},{"start":5286.055,"end":5290.276,"text":"還有警政署也出來講一下話少年嫌疑犯已經有17900人然後呢比上一年還增加的12.94下面這個資料有這麼多的這些狀況當中你們彼此間沒有對接然後一發生事情你就告訴我說我們要立刻花多好時間最快時間回到學校我只請問真的只有回到學校嗎?真的只通知學校嗎?"},{"start":5314.921,"end":5323.308,"text":"這些人適合回學校嗎?所以證明裡面有太多的問題存在了很多人不適合學校的話這還只是966是高風險案還有非常多的黑數我剛特別提到了你看我都不想放這期的影片"},{"start":5330.373,"end":5333.856,"text":"如果你照剛剛這樣說法的話教育部的這個校園系統顯示剛剛把那個數據拿出來112年高中值以下的暴力事件跟偏差行為是27000比110年還多增了1萬多件多增了1萬多件你如果把它平均起來一天平均校園的暴力事件是73件部長你有沒有看到而且你如果看到3月5日這件事情的話"},{"start":5357.033,"end":5363.654,"text":"這個孩子被呼巴掌呼了20幾個然後呢其他的學生就這樣看著他我都已經不知道這樣的一個事件竟然可以讓學生看得大家都很漠然然後呢我不願意放的原因是因為我看了會傷心還有脫衣服毆打的這種霸凌的影片滿天飛部長你看到這些狀況你的心裡感覺到底是什麼樣我跟委員報告喔委員剛才談到這個112年跟111年的這也是過去我們一直在強調不要讓孩子在學校真的有受到"},{"start":5386.818,"end":5388.3,"text":"你現在是告訴我因為是鼓勵通報所以讓過去的黑數可以浮上來所以數字才這麼多"},{"start":5409.842,"end":5426.222,"text":"這個數字通報數之後才我們說那學校應該要進一步的確認甚至如果這個通報數像委員所提到的像這個案子我一定會去追不只是學校真的說確實就屬實的我一定要求國教署一定要跟地方政府不要讓學校這個事情就不了了之"},{"start":5427.563,"end":5431.487,"text":"還有一個非常簡單的一個問題就是我們隨便舉個例子來說好了習為偏差的處罰少年離開的少年關乎所或矯正學校我剛剛所提到的誰來承接你知道還想陪你長大聯盟的家長的訴求就是很多的處罰的少年一進到少關所1到3月"},{"start":5445.999,"end":5447.42,"text":"一年有五成的學生會有再犯刑事案件的這樣一個比例一年有五成"},{"start":5470.078,"end":5497.037,"text":"這些孩子出來然後呢我們教育部各單位只告訴他我會最快時間把他放回學校通知學校那我要問學校這麼多樣的一個狀況而且這些矯正的孩子我們後面我們需要給他輔導可是他的這個債分率這麼高甚至有一個矯正學校的這個心理諮商輔導師告訴我他有一個學生放出去之後兩三個月就自殺死掉因為他一出去又被追殺然後他自己又不想再犯案"},{"start":5497.617,"end":5502.88,"text":"他沒有選擇,他就跳水自殺。這種事情不是只有一件。怎麼辦?這怎麼辦?所以我一直強調,矯正基礎如果沒有做好的話,我們整個的問題都會非常的嚴重。這是一個很大的問題。接下來我就要問一下嘛,為什麼少年犯有私密要再換?還有呢,他們回到學校會是一個什麼樣的狀況?你看少關所,三個月之內就把你放出來。"},{"start":5521.869,"end":5538.003,"text":"那時候的戈景安的這個郭姓少年就是從少關所出來把他放到學校然後再把他轉校然後造成這麼悲劇的一個產生所以呢有沒有可能讓這些孩子在出少關所的時候給他更完整的一個評估有沒有辦法做到這一點他不見得要放回學校啊還沒有什麼其他的地方可以承接我們不要漏接但是我們你們又沒有對接我們誰來承接"},{"start":5550.029,"end":5563.889,"text":"報告委員．有關畫面上是郭姓少年．他在我們少關所是今年的3月近年沒有 那個 署長你不要再話說從前 從盤古開天沒時間了啦你只告訴我以後怎麼來承接"},{"start":5565.957,"end":5569.718,"text":"我最後好謝謝你我最後只問部長一個問題給我一分鐘部長因為是這個問題裡面因為發生太多的問題很多的家長我知道你們也就放寬了非常多我只問一件事情"},{"start":5586.224,"end":5593.032,"text":"如果你今天是部長你變成潘老師潘文忠老師好了如果A同學向潘老師檢舉B同學有彈簧刀的話我請問潘老師怎麼來做這個處理"},{"start":5600.248,"end":5619.173,"text":"這次從這個事件我們有做了很多的討論跟檢討也來自很多學校第一線的意見為什麼會對於有關在安全檢查上面有一個傷害對象的這種特定學生會進行安全檢查甚至這些部長我知道你解釋非常多我只問你潘老師你怎麼樣處理當A同學跟潘老師說有B同學有談環報的時候你怎麼處理"},{"start":5625.555,"end":5639.926,"text":"你的SOP是什麼這是所有全國的老師想要看的啊我剛剛委員報告說為什麼很密集的討論跟公佈的這個事項就是為了要處理這些相關的流程那你怎麼處理你如果是一個回歸到你過去的這個潘老師的話你怎麼來處理這個狀況這個學校本來就要有一個應變的小組作業當發生這個事情不要老是單打獨鬥也是危險啊你原來在進行這件事情的時候事實上還有一個跟如果這個"},{"start":5652.296,"end":5663.764,"text":"所以你們教育部有很多的法規需要我只要提醒部長因為我時間到了我要提醒部長目前為止老師發生事情為什麼老師都不太敢去介入處理因為老師現在處理的是一個模擬兩可的輔導的管教辦法"},{"start":5667.546,"end":5677.413,"text":"但是它萬一處理不當的話學生或教長可以用非常明確的刑法或是明法來告老師這就是目前我們老師的困境一個是模擬兩可 一個是明確你叫老師怎麼辦提到那個緊急的處置學校實際上一定要常態的做這方面的研練跟準備那不是說我在讀運氣這個是跟委員報告第二個是在這一次的注意事項其實對於老師阻卻違法的這個討論"},{"start":5695.145,"end":5698.307,"text":"所以剛剛光是我問潘老師這個問題潘部長你就會發現身為老師當他變成這個角色的時候其實他是處在一個非常危難的狀況如果剛剛被暴 逼同學暴 老師去查了沒有那到時候家長是不是又反過來告老師這就是一個目前"},{"start":5723.78,"end":5725.121,"text":"我只希望我只告訴你這是來自於基層的聲音我想我們會後續在這件事情上面會再做額外的一個做處理因為過去這段時間"},{"start":5749.136,"end":5750.517,"text":"接下來我們請登記質詢第4號的葛如君葛委員 謝謝"},{"start":5784.561,"end":5787.865,"text":"謝謝 主席 有請教育部潘部長麻白部長 謝謝"},{"start":5791.821,"end":5815.34,"text":"委員好謝謝部長這是我們今天第二次這一次第二次見面非常高興因為我們真的有非常多的議題要來跟您探討首先要感謝召委今天特別安排校園暴力處置的專題報告近來真的發生了很多的校園暴力的事件無論是學生或老師之間其實都會造成一些關係的緊張或者破裂需要我們投注更多的心力去預防"},{"start":5817.141,"end":5839.238,"text":"不知道部長知不知道去年Netflix上面熱播的韓劇《黑暗榮耀》探討的就是校園霸凌的議題上線短短三天在全球非英語影集的排行榜就攻佔第一名甚至到最後的統計6.2億的小時觀看人數到現在還是非英語的全球第一"},{"start":5839.858,"end":5867.577,"text":"在全球79個國家還擠進了前10名可見校園霸凌可以是一個全球性的議題除了這個劇情吸引人之外可能也勾起了很多人在求學階段的多少可能曾經受到霸凌的問題的回憶首先想要請教一下教育部的部長您認為在高中以下的求學階段有多少比例的學生曾經有過被霸凌的經驗"},{"start":5868.899,"end":5879.32,"text":"跟我們報告我想估計多少比例是比較不容易因為教育部本身就有我想部長應該還是要有一個概念到底是100個人裡面有一位還是十位"},{"start":5880.226,"end":5898.418,"text":"我跟委員報告為什麼剛才我們召委在提到那個數據從111到112教育部就是擔心孩子在學校受到霸凌或欺負甚至傷害而不敢講隱忍所以強力的鼓勵甚至有賦予學校有通報所以隱忍很危險所以我們來看一下"},{"start":5899.298,"end":5915.268,"text":"根據這個教育部的校安統計的資料112年的霸凌案件的通報件數是3050件確認的案件是285件以教育部112年度高中以下學生人數的統計國小120幾萬人"},{"start":5917.99,"end":5929.944,"text":"國中54萬人、高中60萬人所以高中以下的學習階段的人數大概是238萬人雖然說霸凌事件可能不只涉及一個學生但是以發生比例來看我們可以看到這個數字跟剛剛的這個所謂的2000多個"},{"start":5933.969,"end":5945.766,"text":"所謂的3050件然後確認案件只有285件這個在校園的霸凌裡頭的發生率或者所謂確認發生率竟然只有萬分之1.1像請問一下部長您認為這個數據合理嗎"},{"start":5949.612,"end":5958.703,"text":"我一直說怕孩子在這上面有一萬個人裡面只有一個人是確認霸凌的案件這個合理嗎?請問部長合理嗎?請問部長合不合理?"},{"start":5964.21,"end":5965.291,"text":"根據衛福部110年公布的《青少年健康行為調查報告》"},{"start":5984.851,"end":6006.042,"text":"國中學生在調查期間30天內被霸凌的比例是5.8%是我們剛剛看到的萬分之1.1的500倍高中職生被霸凌的比例是4.3%106年的科技部傳播調查資料庫的調查結果甚至指出四成以上的國小學生、三成以上的國中生"},{"start":6006.542,"end":6025.555,"text":"一成五的高中生表示自己曾經有被霸凌過的經驗這些其他指出的這些官方統計數據和你們教育部的校園霸凌統計資料相比可以說是天差地別我認為本席認為教育部不能只以通報系統為主"},{"start":6027.136,"end":6044.885,"text":"應該比照其他部會以主動調查的方式來積極了解校園霸凌的真實情況以避免校園霸凌案件一再產生黑數剛剛部長也提到了隱忍的狀態不只如此我們來看一下教育部近年的霸凌事件統計的資料這是你們提供的資料"},{"start":6046.69,"end":6051.711,"text":"我們可以看到從109年開始校園暴力事件的通報件數一路上升從109年的1026件暴增到112年的3050件征服高達3倍但是暴力案件的確認率請看右邊黃色的部分卻一路下滑從109年的23%下降到112年的9%"},{"start":6071.835,"end":6077.677,"text":"看起來我好像校園暴力事件變少了但實際上是什麼?被確認的比率變少了那這些人變成他通報了以後結果沒有被確認他們結局到底是怎麼樣呢?請問部長您認為這是校園暴力事件的誤報率增加還是確認機制出現了問題需要調整?"},{"start":6091.441,"end":6112.285,"text":"我跟委員報告因為現在教育部的通報所涵蓋的面相跟類型其實是有做更多細項從過去的70幾件到現在已經增加到100多項就是希望更了解細的我要跟委員報告霸凌如果從國際的來講它有它的定義但孩子感受到的未必是到底是不是霸凌"},{"start":6112.645,"end":6114.006,"text":"所以我們要科學的定律來感受孩子們的心理感受嗎我想我們現在要有同理心"},{"start":6129.599,"end":6144.292,"text":"我們不要用這些規則、規範或科學用在這種地方無論是哪種情況,我們認為都表示現行的校園暴力的處理機制出現Bug,我們都希望都沒有Bug也在教育部裡面發生必須盡速的修正,更令人憂心"},{"start":6145.453,"end":6166.699,"text":"在現行的校園暴力事件的處理上面當學校因為因應小組不受理案件假設檢舉人未提出身負或身負再次被否決則案件進行結案這是你們的流程喔也就是我如果通報了剛剛的那3000多件只有9%被定案那麼91%的直接就去結案了"},{"start":6167.259,"end":6185.755,"text":"我們到底有沒有追蹤想請問部長這些小心翼翼、膽戰心驚、深夜睡不著覺挺身而出的檢舉人在案件被結案以後要如何在原本的校園裡頭環境自處他們後來有沒有辦法順利從原班級原學校畢業我們到底有沒有追查"},{"start":6186.377,"end":6191.26,"text":"我跟委員報告每一個通報的案件一定都會列觀這個是我要先講的包括還沒確認的嗎我跟委員報告後續啦因為過去確實也有談到說學校在處理這些事情的客觀性所以在我們現在新調整"},{"start":6202.566,"end":6205.128,"text":"請部長以同理心設想假設每個通報案件的背後都有受到傷害或者不願意人眼旁觀的學生在這些小組裁定以後結案以後我們認為應該要做後續處理"},{"start":6226.363,"end":6246.268,"text":"部長,我認為教育部有需要重新檢討處理流程．加強截然後對檢舉人身心狀況關懷追蹤的必要性希望請您將檢討報告．或者新修改的規範於一個月內提出給本席委員,這一部分我們正在做最後的總整理太好了,謝謝真的要拜託你們一定要非常非常的關照同學們的心理鼓勵、通報是我們的態度"},{"start":6250.209,"end":6267.9,"text":"但是確認率還是要提高喔那助力的過程為什麼會說在這次霸凌的準則裡面會去做修正就是要回應我們關心的我們認為同學的心理也很重要我們不要拿這些準則來壓這些學生那就是希望了解真相跟助力我想後面還有很多重要的訊息"},{"start":6268.8,"end":6288.852,"text":"目前新世代身處社群的文化．大量的新的工具根據教育部提供的統計資料近年來學生主要的霸凌形態正在由傳統的肢體暴力轉變為透過言語關係或者網路的新形態霸凌以往的校園霸凌事件是比較容易確認的"},{"start":6289.753,"end":6290.474,"text":"4年的平均確認率只有13%"},{"start":6309.794,"end":6324.669,"text":"其他的肢體暴力的確認力都相對的比較高我要提醒部長新興科技、先進科技正在被誤用可能成為新的網路霸凌工具近日美國就發生一起網路霸凌事件不知道部長有沒有關注到有學生在網路上惡意的散佈AI生成的偽造的照片"},{"start":6331.115,"end":6357.476,"text":"把同學的臉拼接上裸體散佈這些偽造的影像在美國校方決定嚴懲把五名涉案的加害學生予以退學這樣的事件其實現在正在指數形態在全世界各地發生包含美國、加拿大、西班牙、巴西都出現深偽技術Deepfake的有關網路霸凌我們甚至認為這個都在那些沒有被確認的黑數當中因為我們的政府好像對於Deepfake的驗證"},{"start":6358.457,"end":6376.94,"text":"時間都拉了很長能力不一定很強想請教部長目前我們是不是應該提升加強深層式AI或者deepfake相關的一些教育教學或者理解讓他們知道這些內容很可能都是假的考量到兒童的心智發展跟數位素養"},{"start":6377.481,"end":6405,"text":"我們是不是應該要比照聯合國教科文的組織．針對高中以下的學校．訂定深層式人工智慧．或者Deepfake的危險性的使用指南．並且提出深層式AI的建議使用年齡是,謝謝委員這個指教．確實在網路上的霸凌的現象．比我們在學校實體．確實挑戰更大那這方面．也藉由目前我們．所進行的這些數位進進方案當中．尤其特別對於老師的增能．就是剛才委員所指教的"},{"start":6406.862,"end":6430.16,"text":"我們真的要提醒部長目前國教署提供的資料關於DeFake的討論教材就深度偽造、深偽技術只在高中階段也就是只有16到18歲所以16歲以下的學生對於這樣的危險性可能完全是不知道的希望能夠請教育部來研議我認為閉合不談不是最好的教育方式"},{"start":6430.66,"end":6436.262,"text":"希望教育部來研議針對國中至國小的階段給予適當的教材與預防身為技術遭到誤用甚至成為霸凌的新方法希望能夠將研議結果在一個月內提供給本席可以嗎這個跟委員報告整個資訊教育素養還有這部分是由教育部的資科師在整個統籌所以剛才委員所提的我想跟我們目前要努力可以提出我想一個月內我們把我們現在目前進行的情形跟委員"},{"start":6457.51,"end":6475.058,"text":"最後提醒部長暴力事件真的不是只在戲劇當中一定要一起來加速對現行校園暴力機制的處理方法接下來可能會有很多新的方式出現我們要一起來保護檢舉人、受害人為最高原則結案不代表暴力事件的結束"},{"start":6475.758,"end":6501.744,"text":"很可能是新的霸凌事件的開端我們要持續追蹤關懷另外世界上的其他國家已經出現新興的霸凌工具或霸凌的形態教育部應該要加速了解並且提出預防措施他山之石可以工作教育部一定要儘速的調整現行校園霸凌的處理機制並提供校園端必要的外部資源以因應新形態的會越來越可怕的校園霸凌事件的方法我們非常認同委員的提醒謝謝部長"},{"start":6506.392,"end":6518.201,"text":"謝謝我先預告一下我們本委會在第7號就是這個郭育晴委員質詢完畢之後我們會休息5分鐘好我們先休息5分鐘那接下來我們先請登記5號的葉元智委員麻煩請教育部長謝謝好部長謝謝"},{"start":6534.145,"end":6562.742,"text":"葉委員好部長好部長大家都非常關心校園暴力也非常關心校園霸凌但是這個事件層出不窮然後越來越嚴重你覺得教育部不應該要檢討委員這個議題本來教育部就是一直是重要的議題對啦對啦也一直在精進中要面對問題啦好不好我們接下來其實都是跟你討論問題是我覺得其實有學生人權是蠻重要的但是保護那些想要在學校好好學習的學生他也是很重要"},{"start":6564.122,"end":6590.897,"text":"給老師在教學現場足夠的尊重以及適當的工具也是很重要所以我覺得在保護學生權利的同時怎麼樣兼顧可以讓那些好學生想要學習學生好好學習安全的回家這個是教育部責務旁貸的以現在的數據來看的話實際上教育部在這方面是失職的必須要講是失職每次看到這些事件在新聞出現大家都非常痛心"},{"start":6591.497,"end":6605.857,"text":"那剛剛我看到很多委員在跟部長的答詢部長都說學校要怎麼做學校要怎麼做可是我就非常好奇就是說像部長你真的知道學校特別是老師在第一線的真實狀況嗎你有去了解過嗎"},{"start":6606.997,"end":6628.126,"text":"委員我討論政治政策都會邀請第一線的學校來參與對可是我跟老師 包含這次注意事項的管理我主持會議還有工作小組會超過7次我建議你微服出巡到學校去跟老師聊聊看你會知道跟真實的聲音邀請來的第一線老師一定會講真實的心聲不一定有時候你在他不見得會講不會啦那我跟你講一下我聽到了嘛好不好好我跟你講我聽到了請問指教對"},{"start":6632.108,"end":6652.342,"text":"現在應該大家都推那個正向教育正向教育很棒啦所以老師也不太敢罰嘛那另外就是剛剛講說這個要收書現在是要放寬一些收書包的規定嘛對吧就是安全檢查啦對啦 可是實際上你知道嗎有時候收到一些違禁品比如收到彈簧刀今天收到彈簧刀可以怎麼做"},{"start":6653.615,"end":6676.888,"text":"委員這次的注意事項連這個細節我們都有一個手冊他就是應該做保管啊保管嘛對嘛保管他保管然後再通知家長領回嘛對不對先做保管這樣看這個學生的樣態不是說直接就叫家長領回對這就不能沒收嘛然後後來之後家長就可以有的時候家長可以領回嘛對嘛有的時候嘛這個就看他調法的結果然後家長領回之後呢隔天學生再帶彈簧刀來啦"},{"start":6678.169,"end":6703.536,"text":"然後保管一段時間再叫這樣領回啦然後領回之後再帶來啦然後就這樣無止盡啦然後再來就是這還是針對說學校老師覺得說這個學生不是那種幫派小孩他們還敢收啊如果遇到幫派小孩的話老師敢收嗎老師不敢惹他們啊老師有家庭啊老師如果說去惹那些幫派小孩這些幫派老大在家裡在門口等他了啦"},{"start":6704.116,"end":6708.967,"text":"所以這些狀況部長真的要去了解一下我還沒講完不要急著插話好不好因為我也沒有在ㄉㄧㄤ你我們只是討論問題"},{"start":6715.39,"end":6743.988,"text":"我覺得把所有的問題都推給學校推給老師其實給老師很大的壓力現在在每個學校裡面很多生教組長都是代理老師在兼任為什麼因為正式都不敢做嘛都不敢去惹這些幫派小孩啊所以不是說所有事情都全部推給學校應該要找少年隊介這是我的建議啦找少年隊很多幫派小孩他們背後都有大哥有老大的你找少年隊去壓制他們老大跟他們講說在學校裡面要有學校的規則"},{"start":6745.749,"end":6771.457,"text":"你要在幫派混當然有另外警察可以去處理但在學校就是要做學生不可以針對老師否則的話叫那些少年隊去找他的老大麻煩嘛否則你叫那些老師老師回到家也是要抱小孩啊也是有家庭要養你你叫他去對那些幫派小孩他敢嗎所以真的我覺得第一個真的是要針對問題第二個喔我建議啦是不是在國中的部分可以增加校安人員現在高中有校安人員嘛"},{"start":6772.017,"end":6789.608,"text":"對,有一些像軍人退伍啊、教官退伍去當校安人員但國中沒有啊實際上國中這個問題才是比較嚴重的嘛所以部長可不可以研議一下我覺得編個預算讓所有的國中可以有至少按照比例可以有一到兩位的教安人員這做得到嗎"},{"start":6790.672,"end":6807.523,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我應該講這個絕對不是讓老師單獨承擔所有的事情如果從少事法的規範裡面我跟委員報告如果這個孩子是西界比如像已經是違背的像彈簧刀等這個機械不是需要沒收那個其實是可以通報到我們包含少福會或"},{"start":6810.084,"end":6815.567,"text":"有相關的單位由這些來做協助如果遇到緊急狀態之下本來就有學校跟警政之間有這種互相支援的契約而且這個做法才不會讓老師真的面對這個問題怎麼可能由老師來單獨承擔"},{"start":6826.252,"end":6853.293,"text":"學校的這個應變跟這個輔導委員會對這些特定的孩子事實上應該有這個機制而不是說我只在學校你講的意思是說有這個機制有這個機制但是沒辦法執行嘛你也是教育專訪你知道就是很難執行嘛今天的老師面對到幫派小孩沒有壓力嗎不是啊你剛才講的就是現在的機制啊我在台北縣服務的時候就是這樣啊我跟少年隊為什麼密集的合作"},{"start":6854.053,"end":6872.751,"text":"就是說當有碰到一些學校應該支援現在的機制也如此啊我認為一定是不夠啦一定不夠我剛剛講的是說少年隊能不能直接去找去幫派跟他們去跟壓制他們但這個學校因為如果說你不這樣做的話你剛剛講了嘛你在台北縣服務時代就是這個機制那為什麼到現在問題還是一直存在"},{"start":6873.353,"end":6878.394,"text":"所以說問題沒有解決嗎現在你提的這個現象我應該在說當時的台北縣在這個方面從一千多個中小學生降為五百多個這個當時教育局跟警察局之間的合作包含跟學校的支持部長 部長連掃蕩學校周邊的如果說你已經做得很好的話我們今天不需要在這邊討論這個專題現在新北出現的這個事情你也知道啊"},{"start":6899.36,"end":6921.564,"text":"你不用去扯什麼新北不新北啦只是簽名在那邊開開規矩被涉嫌發生怎麼樣嘛我當時我跟委員報告我沒兩週會主持一次這樣的會議我現在是在這邊跟你討論說這個問題還是繼續存在我們把問題解決你跟我扯說在新北幹嘛以前怎樣以前如果做得好我們現在不會有這個專題報告嘛因為委員一直覺得說學校跟少年隊之間沒有連結我現在就跟你們報告現在就有機制啊做得不夠嘛"},{"start":6926.005,"end":6940.284,"text":"就做 不然的話為什麼會發生這個狀況不是 如果學校碰到孩子也不願意跟警政單位連結委員 你覺得這個情況應該怎麼辦我跟你講 我現在就是告訴你真實的狀況就是很多老師也不敢去惹這些幫派的小孩不用他惹啊 校長來通報 請務人員來通報校長敢通報嗎"},{"start":6942.967,"end":6943.107,"text":"那校安人員呢?"},{"start":6963.21,"end":6967.213,"text":"我跟在這個報告裡面我提到了我們會來再增加國中有關在這方面學務處的副組長的部分會先來增設對於部分因為現在說在學務處的負擔很重我們除了檢課的終點協助以外這方面會來修有關這個設置條例這個編制編制準則希望能夠在上面來增加人力"},{"start":6989.917,"end":6990.178,"text":"教安人員"},{"start":7006.055,"end":7017.184,"text":"一個人不是去了如果是一個約聘的人員請問委員如果單獨一個人永遠就在這個學校也沒有任何的這種發展升天的機會不過高中就有校安人員啊高中的校安的創新人員是因為他本身是過去我們教官的這個機制之下我們有同時他就是一個體系啦"},{"start":7026.732,"end":7043.352,"text":"那你可以找高中體系來支援國中嗎?這個我們可研議,我只是跟委員先報告這個階段我們會先做什麼?尤其有些學校有需求才會這邊提出來我剛剛跟委員報告說他的做法我們會採取多管道的模式但是會來增加人力"},{"start":7044.761,"end":7062.694,"text":"所以我覺得你還是研議一下好不好因為也是有人跟我反映啦就希望在國中可以成立校園人員只要一到兩名其實就夠了啦那你說本來高中有機制你就高中機制原本的他原本在高中服務的他有一個資料庫請他來國中一到兩位就可以了啦"},{"start":7063.888,"end":7083.655,"text":"委員這個因為涉及到編制等等我們可能要再做一些編制這都是技術性的問題你就看要不要做而已嘛沒有我跟委員說我們會有階段性的做法好那再來是現在18歲以前的剛剛現在講的那個前科塗銷現在教育部的方向是怎樣這是主管當然由司法院在主管對"},{"start":7084.375,"end":7103.282,"text":"那教育部的態度應該是這樣說從教育來講就是這些我們犯錯的少年還是應該要給相關的這種改過的機會但是呢是否連線的時間一到就塗銷我覺得這個要斟酌啦一定是所以教育部是希望維持就不用塗銷嘛"},{"start":7104.082,"end":7107.106,"text":"我要跟委員說那是應該比如說學校也有所謂的銷過的機制學生犯了過但是後來有優良的表現我覺得要塗銷這個事情要非常謹慎所以我是說要有相當條件能夠確認到孩子確實是改過了"},{"start":7121.442,"end":7148.472,"text":"這個孩子今天很多孩子他在犯案的時候跟他這個新聞報的啊跟女朋友炫耀啊說我做這事沒關係反正法律會保護我啊之後呢我就可以成為黑幫老大他們現在做很多事情是故意的啦他覺得說前科會塗銷然後假設三分之一就可以出來了嘛刑期也可以減少嘛所以他覺得做這個事情我以後出來關一下就變大為了嘛就像就像這個割喉案這個郭鑫少年他之後會關關出來是幾歲"},{"start":7151.223,"end":7175.136,"text":"大概幾歲大概21歲20到21歲左右出來之後他就變大圍了所以如果說我們的法律是定的那麼寬鬆的話就會讓我覺得校園安全出現更多的漏洞因為司法院對這個議題很重視他正在會收集幾個部會的建議教育部我現在是問教育部嘛我是希望教育部可以堅持啦這個東西不能塗銷啦"},{"start":7179.798,"end":7205.761,"text":"而且我跟你講這也沒有違反保護機制為什麼因為說實在每個人走在路上我們也不會知道他有沒有前科只有警察會知道嘛就他未來如果犯案的話警察會知道說他之前有前科或是在判案的時候有一般人是不會知道的但是如果說把他塗銷之後很多人就會覺得反正沒有前科啊我就為所欲為的啊那善良的小朋友怎麼辦所以我覺得教育部這個部分希望能夠站在"},{"start":7207.13,"end":7207.891,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請潘部長"},{"start":7242.637,"end":7264.394,"text":"去年韓國瘾及黑暗榮耀用校園霸凌來題材讓造成全球也是排行冠軍那現在很多人重視到校園霸凌的問題那本席先就教幾個校園霸凌的問題有民調顯示說有近三成的兒少不認為自己在學校安全你有沒有看到這樣的一個報導"},{"start":7265.527,"end":7290.827,"text":"因為過去也有很多的相關調查相關資料只是這個我並沒有進一步比較客觀的去確認過平均高中職以下的暴力跟偏差行為一年有兩萬六千多件平均每天發生71件的暴力事件那去年調查發現有三成的兒校不認為自己在學校安全你不覺得這很諷刺嗎?"},{"start":7292.222,"end":7306.469,"text":"通常來講家庭、校園感覺應該是合理上來說比較安全的地方但是居然有三成的兒校不管是國小、國中、高中生會認為是說在學校不安全我們這幾年投入那麼多的一個努力到底為什麼還會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":7308.103,"end":7308.483,"text":"所以部長"},{"start":7335.42,"end":7350.771,"text":"這樣我就直接請問嘛你覺得說現在的數據遲遲上升是因為通報變多還是案件變多委員這個要進一步去做確認那如果說你沒有辦法確認你為什麼憑什麼在這邊講說是因為通報變多這是你的邏輯啊有幾個因為我們的類型其實一直在擴大啦那當中對霸凌的比如通報數是3000多件那確認數大概是200多件"},{"start":7362.283,"end":7374.566,"text":"我是以霸凌因為霸凌有它的定義啦這不是因為孩子比如說受到比如跟同學發生衝突他覺得被霸凌但是如果說進一步的去確認是不是應該要再確認我只是跟委員報告那個數據我們掌握到的就是鼓勵通報一定是責無旁貸的事啦當然再來一個當然就而且也應該不應該有過去這種隱匿的漏息對 對不對所以委員那次來考慮我一次說我先請教我再請教你"},{"start":7388.53,"end":7389.611,"text":"委員我要這樣子講因為如果以我們在"},{"start":7406.383,"end":7421.684,"text":"因為現在很多人會覺得是說是不是因為這個霸凌的事件頻傳而今年明星私中傳出報考的人數激增私立中學比頂尖的大學還要難考那這樣子的現象如果真的發生的時候我們怎麼樣重建我們公立體系"},{"start":7422.345,"end":7422.445,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":7441.451,"end":7441.751,"text":"本席國一"},{"start":7460.127,"end":7476.287,"text":"總共人數是21萬相較於去年是18萬整整多三萬一千如果三萬一千多多少比例將近將近兩成你就會知道為什麼去讀師中的像你服務的新北新北要增加兩百班"},{"start":7477.529,"end":7491.429,"text":"這個方法如果以比例來看你要去想本來就想要去進去進入師中的一定會因為師中的民口不是一直變大嗎他就固定的所以我就這個人數是非常特殊的龍年跟兔年之間差了三萬一千人新光國一"},{"start":7492.55,"end":7513.797,"text":"就是明年要升國一所以從那個數據我想我要跟委員報告的是這個訊息我也請署長一定要特別去留意但是對於師中過去因為私校法有一個57條還是第幾條有開放讓私立學校可以用各種的方式過去委員也經常指教不是委員委員會這邊都說像中部那種小型年考的說實在"},{"start":7515.818,"end":7529.133,"text":"9年義務教育台灣走過後還在出現這個現象這個我覺得我們教育機關是應該要來慎重的注意啦孩子即使是為了擠這個窄門結果說真話放棄了不然之前才有一個家長"},{"start":7530.034,"end":7533.475,"text":"最重點是說現在霸凌事件頻傳造成普遍家長若不信任這個公立學校而造成大家是往私校擠就造成兩個現象一個是越來越多人可能會去針對私立學校的一個報考"},{"start":7555.362,"end":7568.974,"text":"那另外一個部分就是說對於公立學校我們的老師我們的教職員也會有士氣低落的影響嗎等一下再來跟你就教這個部分你剛剛也提到了非常好本席等一下會問但我先講請教校園霸凌影片"},{"start":7570.325,"end":7587.165,"text":"現在很多時候看到賴群組轉傳我們會知道這個霸凌是因為那個影片本席之前也有提過就是說會有霸凌事件而會有其他人拍影片經夢想像上他是要在欺負那個被害者他是想要在取樂他是想要在嘲笑他是想要把被害者"},{"start":7589.487,"end":7607.202,"text":"這個受辱的畫面也拍下來這一個部分另外一個部分可能是當下他想要做個記錄譬如說像上禮拜有這個學生跟老師的這個衝突的時候就是當場教室裡面的同學把它拍下來那我現在先請教說霸凌影片出來之後的這個處理機制"},{"start":7608.763,"end":7632.405,"text":"有沒有跟我們相關單位來聯繫去做這個下架以及做心理後續的輔導是,謝謝委員這個提醒我跟你們報告就是近期有幾個校園的這個事件上因為在那個平台上面我們就會請要求學校因為一定會掌握到就是要跟iWIN做這方面的下架的要求至於委員剛才提到有些被Download下來以後就在那個社群裡面"},{"start":7632.745,"end":7656.682,"text":"尤其是校園對這個是比較難的因為他已經被但是在那個平台裡面我們第一時間一定會這樣做那我也跟委員報告這個真的我們要再努力了之前也有一個影片不知道我有沒有看到就是學生把老師什麼時候壓在然後用什麼結果查證以後那個事情是根本就不是這樣的事情不是嗎他不是不是也是在新北的一個學校"},{"start":7657.502,"end":7663.744,"text":"是老師講不是?同學講不是?還是你聽學校的講法?學校正式求證,而且也正式說明,有對外說明沒有,我要跟委員報告的是網路的這些訊息,確實我們要不斷地去做這方面當然,像學校一個拍戲劇的影片,結果把它當成這個對非常多社會也是很震撼學生把老師綁在後頭,然後用什麼板叉去弄"},{"start":7684.031,"end":7686.492,"text":"那我現在要問的是說在霸凌影片的部分我們怎麼樣有做後續的一個輔導"},{"start":7710.027,"end":7736.684,"text":"委員就是一定會先做下架那之後如果像這一些因為還是會要求到縣市跟學校對於這個個案在後續的處理上面因為有雙方這個部分其實我們不是說下架就沒事了一定會去追蹤到因為這個可能就會進到多數的這些我們掌握到都會進行到霸凌尤其生對生的後續的處置的作業一直到這個案子是真正的作為一個處置"},{"start":7737.645,"end":7759.472,"text":"好 剛剛部長你還有提到就是所謂剛剛葉元之委員問到戴彈簧刀的一個部分我先確認一下你們剛剛講的確實是彈簧刀嗎?是嘛 彈簧刀嗎?那如果說是彈簧刀的話我們沒有任何的法令可以去規範嗎?葉文昌司法的規範就是這樣啊什麼樣子?那就是戴著就是那個什麼刀械這個本來就是可以通報的對啊"},{"start":7760.752,"end":7767.255,"text":"那個不是沒收的概念而已是啊那為什麼你剛剛回答的時候都沒有講這個方向因為委員一直沒有在我要跟他報告說委員這個少事法的規範裡面這個已經不是讓老師單打獨鬥也不是讓學校單打獨鬥本時要特別強調的是不只是少事法社會秩序維護法也都有一樣的概念"},{"start":7782.823,"end":7796.14,"text":"彈簧刀雖然我們沒有在槍砲彈藥管理條例裡面沒有規範到彈簧刀但實際上它所的用途是野外求生或者是觀賞收藏用而絕對不是讓任何人可以隨便的隨時擠彈"},{"start":7797.321,"end":7819.102,"text":"所以只要發生隨身攜帶的話該通報該處置本來就應該要處置啊怎麼會讓大家覺得說好像校園是一個話外之地所以部長你正式的再做一次強調到底現在老師如果說有收到學生有帶任何的違禁品尤其是有傷人的利器的時候老師應該怎麼做"},{"start":7819.802,"end":7840.512,"text":"跟委員報告因為學校本來就有這種如果有碰到這種情形就有通報這個通報當然就可以通過到我們還有警察機關警務機關然後少年隊對不對最後啊本席也要在一分鐘的時間來說明一下剛剛你有提到這個高中的一個部分"},{"start":7841.533,"end":7856.512,"text":"在這一次我們有提到說這個高中免學費這開始要推動高中免學費但是有所謂排付條款可是現在是補助了公立學校免學費、私立學校免學費但是有一群人是沒有被補助到"},{"start":7858.111,"end":7883.909,"text":"對 是不是因為當時高級中等教育法修法的時候在委員會這邊當然當時委員會這邊立了一個非常輕易的彈書你現在今年二月要高級中等學校全部都免學費上路嗎沒有 那個法規那個法規就是有個彈書那個彈書當時我有調出這個要不要去處理那個朝野的立委在這上面有非常奇異的看法所以當時立法上面就是排除"},{"start":7885.089,"end":7905.369,"text":"所以是立法的原因嗎?但是因為是你們今年要推動的時候,這是政策面的考量喔?所以說是很多的學校、私校的家長是被排除在外的?他是有三種,一種就是直升到學校或辦理讀招"},{"start":7907.151,"end":7916.281,"text":"獨招,它是從招生不是從貧富的,從招生的上面的規定。是啊,就是從招生的規定。對對對。但是本席在講講這樣子有多少人?有多少學生?"},{"start":7917.954,"end":7918.394,"text":"委員這個是因為這個是涉及到入學的規範"},{"start":7942.584,"end":7962.669,"text":"本席現在提出來不管是什麼樣的原因現在結果我現在講的是結果結果就是有這樣並且本席在今年開始因為你們已經開始實施了之後才發覺說很多的家長他們自己看了原來不是說政府宣傳很多啊高中免學費啊但是我的學我的孩子的高中為什麼沒有被納入"},{"start":7963.669,"end":7982.621,"text":"那這樣子就是你們故意排除在外啊他就一直問我們說難道我們不是台灣人嗎難道我們沒有納稅嗎難道我們不是一般高中生嗎確實他們也是高中生啊要不要補救要不要檢討可以研議啊可以研議但這個研議一定要大家有共識啦因為那個要修教育不能教育法"},{"start":7982.921,"end":8007.151,"text":"但是應該要求教育部是不是先針對到底有多少人並且要用到多少的預算先做一個評估委員那個預算絕對不是大的問題就是因為不是問題所以說我們才問說為什麼還要你分族群為什麼你還要分化為什麼還要搞特權這個是當時立法院朝野委員強調我把那個資料給你參考你就會知道本席有看過那資料當然重點在於是這是你們的政策"},{"start":8007.751,"end":8010.752,"text":"好,這個我們整理,本來就已經整理過,來做政策這方面的討論"},{"start":8035.316,"end":8036.398,"text":"主席好有請部長部長辛苦了"},{"start":8050.073,"end":8050.293,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8070.482,"end":8089.869,"text":"他們的這個應該是說即將在8月就要上路了啦第三期對 第三期的部分那當然其實在這個教育部國教署其實之前也提到了這第三期的一個草案但是有很多的所謂的退場機制包含師生筆可能如果不符合規定或者是說這個學校在三年之內曾經有什麼樣的一個事故的話可能他們就必須要被"},{"start":8095.211,"end":8095.831,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":8122.219,"end":8139.406,"text":"因為現在第三期的訂約的條件目前還沒有定案下來因為各界包含家長、教保人員的待遇還有家長的期待以及教保服務品質等等還有包含剛才委員提到那個深思比一比十二怎麼進行的期程"},{"start":8139.966,"end":8146.388,"text":"所以這個還沒有定案可是這樣子8月就要上路了我跟委員報告一下所以也沒有所謂現在哪個學校是退場或等等的那這個我跟委員報告目前整個已經都收集了相關的資料那會在3月底就會正式的把這個方面做定案跟對外來公佈那縣市才可以依據這個來做縣市內的相關有意參與總共用的這些的後續的訂約的事項"},{"start":8168.413,"end":8184.5,"text":"其實我相信應該很多的本來的私立幼兒園其實他們也很願意能夠參加所謂的全公幼但是因為現在我們看到的我目前所收到的一些陳情包含是桃園市他們開了第一槍等於他們開了第一槍之後"},{"start":8185.06,"end":8185.12,"text":"來得及"},{"start":8201.28,"end":8227.115,"text":"那我跟委員報告因為在規劃的過程確實為了確保這個教保服務的品質甚至過去也有部分的幼兒園有出現這種管理不當甚至教保人員去虐待管教孩子的事情然後這個也是社會要求但是我聽到的有很多其實願意加入準公幼他們其實本來在私立的幼兒園他們也經營了大概二十三十年都是非常優質的但是這個政策一出來的時候其實會"},{"start":8228.475,"end":8228.615,"text":"主席"},{"start":8252.288,"end":8262.89,"text":"退出所謂的准公幼的一個名單之外的話其實他們等於每個孩子每個月要多付大概3000到9000這對很多的家庭來講是很成功的負擔因為剛才講到時間根本還沒有定案下來也就沒有所謂哪個園或什麼桃園市有幾園這個是一個時間第二個就是在我們研議的過程當中因為如果真的不適合的園所勉強加入我想對很多家長也會有疑慮"},{"start":8279.933,"end":8296.037,"text":"對於如果有退場比如他原來已有加入沒有進行續約的對於家長權益的保障這個是我們主要的配套措施我給您一個建議好不好因為其實有很多的私幼其實他們也許在第二期的時候他們說是1比15他等於多收了三個孩子"},{"start":8296.437,"end":8296.757,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8315.333,"end":8330.938,"text":"那在國教署召開諮詢的相關的會議確實有這樣的意見這些都是在我們最後要定案前會把它做重整的考量但是確保就是說原來就讀又夠准公幼家長的權益比如得到政府的這些協助的這種一定會保障"},{"start":8333.679,"end":8358.965,"text":"謝謝部長的回應接下來我們就進入今天我們在討論的所謂的這個校園安全的一個部分了那前一陣子其實大家都可以看到所謂的師生上面的一個衝突其實也引發了整個我們對於所謂的國高中生他們因為剛好面臨所謂的青春期他們在面對所謂的校園安全上面我相信其實不是只有那樣子的孩子跟那樣子的一個老師其實他們在"},{"start":8360.685,"end":8384.291,"text":"對應所謂的這樣子的一個校園安全他們其實是會有一些疑慮跟擔心的那我們可以看到其實教育部在111年各級學校的安全的報告的分析我們都知道其實關於老師跟青少年的學生們他們在溝通上也就是說他們其實是需要花時間去關心這些孩子的我才能夠知道每個孩子的一個狀況"},{"start":8385.351,"end":8410.125,"text":"我們現在可以看到以平均單級的人數來說在國小的話一般大概是23人所以我們以公立的學校來說那在國中的部分是25將近26人高中其實有30人那也就是說在校園安全其實發生比例最高的就是出事最多的應該是所謂的高中這個部分我們在人力的部分要怎麼樣來配合"},{"start":8411.346,"end":8425.341,"text":"我跟委員報告當然這是一個平均數的概念因為台灣少子化後其實有相當多的學校學生人數是低於這個平均數那在過往這段時間我們其實"},{"start":8425.982,"end":8431.404,"text":"高中的部分其實是最優先的將輔導教師跟專輔人員的部分最快達成依照現行學生輔導法的方面來做這方面人力的尤其是專業的這方面的人力的政治那國中"},{"start":8445.39,"end":8451.133,"text":"會在114學年度達到那國小我也把它提前從120學年度提前到116學年度因為我想這一些是剛才委員所提到真的越來越多孩子可能在這方面需要有更多專業的人力因為其實有很多的事件它會是同時發生它不是可能只有這一班在發生那其實校安人員或者是我們的學校的專輔的人員"},{"start":8470.885,"end":8494.78,"text":"其實他們到達現場去處理應變的能力到底夠不夠這也是我們真的也必須要討論進去的是好那另外呢其實就是在於所謂我剛剛有講到老師跟學生之間的長期的一個溝通跟了解其實才是他們解決問題最重要的一個關鍵但是現在因為有很多的實資其實是沒有辦法到位的包含"},{"start":8495.06,"end":8495.2,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8511.936,"end":8529.513,"text":"特質其實他沒有辦法第一線的掌握這是不是跟校方有沒有告知也有關係對 我跟委員報告因為如果對我們說特教學生或比較特別的一些要高關懷的學生在原來的學生輔導法裡面其實一個非常重要的"},{"start":8529.813,"end":8546.507,"text":"他就是一個學生輔導委員會校長就是那個召集人這就是應該要很清楚的對這方面有所掌握那對於說比如當然待課老師比如北市出現的這個問題學校檢討下來北市教育局這邊提到的就是校方可能在這個讓要去待課這個老師對於學生這班上的特殊狀況的孩子並沒有適當的做銜接"},{"start":8556.755,"end":8574.308,"text":"像這個我想也是教育部未來要跟縣市還有學校這邊在這方面可能要再更多的連結因為這一次那次的衝突他們檢討下來因為有請國教署這方面深入的了解確實學校跟教育局所反映出來的這個確實是一個當時產生衝突一個還蠻重要的關鍵"},{"start":8579.011,"end":8602.771,"text":"其實剛剛有很多的委員都有提到所謂的校園霸凌的事件其實霸凌不只有單純在學生跟學生之間其實霸凌也有可能會發生在老師或者是校長對於學校的孩子霸凌的一個事件這個部分我不知道部長您有沒有掌握因為其實我們知道在去年4月份的時候其實我們有特別提到所謂的不適任的校長的問題那根據所謂的這個國教法"},{"start":8605.794,"end":8606.214,"text":"因為其實看到這個表格我們會發現"},{"start":8635.292,"end":8649.147,"text":"在文法上面定下來目前國教署所授權的執法正在做最後的整理什麼時候可以出現因為我們看到其實在關於所謂的校長跟教職員對學生的一個霸凌其實它高達13.23%那這個比例其實已經來到了"},{"start":8653.131,"end":8653.231,"text":"主席"},{"start":8688.288,"end":8690.533,"text":"好謝謝我們現在就先休息5分鐘"},{"start":9007.722,"end":9032.903,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那接下來我們請登記第8號的羅廷偉羅委員好謝謝主席我想有請潘部長還有周署長小政署周署長還有我們的謝廷長、郭副司長"},{"start":9035.277,"end":9036.918,"text":"麻煩部長、署長、廳長、郭副司長請問部長,目前多少保護管束的人在學校?"},{"start":9055.806,"end":9083.016,"text":"那個詳細的數據可能在我們...沒關係那我可以請問一下這個司法部分但是我會覺得很奇怪就是說因為他已經保護管束了他回到校園也就是在我們的教育部管轄範圍我覺得教育部應該要有權責去瞭解到底有多少的孩子已經回到了學校那你個人認為這些學校回到學校以後適不適合繼續留在學校"},{"start":9083.997,"end":9097.689,"text":"委員關鍵這個議題也是我們前一段時間一直在跨部會、跨院在努力的部分就是因為現在如果涉及到暴險少年或司法少年那在他有個過程一個就是調查過程"},{"start":9098.49,"end":9098.67,"text":"主席"},{"start":9123.892,"end":9129.917,"text":"應該要邀請學校能夠在調查的過程以及裁決的過程能夠充分的參與這個就會回應到委員所提到的這種高風險的對象我想我們在討論的過程當中學校或主管機關這邊就能夠更充分的來參與這樣聽起來好像不太適合嘛 對不對"},{"start":9144.069,"end":9169.336,"text":"這樣才會更加委員所關心的適不適合回到學校這應該是大家要重整的去做客觀的條件上的討論跟決定好那但是我覺得對於剛剛我想問第一個問題就是保護管束的人多少在學校我覺得從今天開始以後我覺得教育部有責任去做一個串接去了解有多少的孩子回到了校園我覺得這個是教育部應該要關注的一個議題"},{"start":9169.656,"end":9172.718,"text":"現在少年關務所跟矯正學校對於安置所內的一個少年都如何進行輔導?成效如何?再犯的機率你們有評估過嗎?"},{"start":9188.049,"end":9190.01,"text":"那目前成效呢 成效如何"},{"start":9211.138,"end":9234.955,"text":"目前在每個案子大概法院大概都有在take care這些案件對包括這個安置機構的他也是在社區當中比如說臺北的孩子然後被安置到花蓮那花蓮地方政府就會收到法院的通知那就要去安排這些他的就學跟他就業甚至於說有些孩子會在這個就是就學期間接受心理智商這些大概都有一個安置輔導計畫"},{"start":9236.056,"end":9263.661,"text":"我覺得個人你回答了很多但是都沒有切中我們的要點我覺得就是少年保護的執行力就是不髒讓我們覺得這樣子的事件會層出不窮在這些少年離開少關所或者是矯正學校以後地方法院的少關人我們看到他的人數也真的不足司法院在自己的報告也寫到新北校園暴力事件的發生顯示實務上多數少年法院調查保護是人力不足"},{"start":9264.201,"end":9290.436,"text":"市長我想問一下人力不足這件事情是老問題的在人力不足的情況之下要如何做好輔導功能跟委員報告就是2月1號呢我們其實已經有進行一個就是緊急的評估就是我們透過這個示範計畫希望把保護管束現在在社區就學中的這些少年透過示範計畫把評估這個風險就評估這個少年的風險因子那列入這個保護管束示範計畫什麼時候會結束"},{"start":9292.077,"end":9295.179,"text":"司法院要成立新的少年法院這個會不會與地方法院的少年及家事法院有跌床駕屋的一個問題"},{"start":9321.381,"end":9321.401,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":9341.608,"end":9360.302,"text":"聽長我覺得法院不是越來越多越好那如何能夠強化我覺得重點還是如何承接這些少年當然當然我想新北國中這個戈井案加害人稱收容與少年關務所故意少年事件處理法應該由少年保護館進行專責社區的一個處遇但為什麼沒有留意"},{"start":9361.606,"end":9380.918,"text":"跟委員報告這個個案據我們的了解其實保護官也都有跟學校的生肖組長還有輔導老師那其實跟學校端也都有開過相關的會議對但是我們有少年保護官這個部分有專責處理這個部分可是我就覺得沒有留意到那廷長我覺得這位少年回到學校以後他並沒有被制度給接住難道他被放棄了嗎"},{"start":9381.823,"end":9397.528,"text":"還是都交給學校全部都交給教育部跟委員報告這段時間他從少關有出來其實就是在保護管束期間就會有一個保護官跟學校去討論如何的讓少年在學校可以接受輔導還有保護官的這樣的一個監督跟他的一個輔導計畫的進行"},{"start":9399.309,"end":9426.345,"text":"所以這個部分其實大概都有相關的制度我想剛剛有一些立委也在討論我覺得有少年保護官一起來負責才能增加對犯罪少年的一個約束力而不是少年丟回了學校就丟給我們現在的教育部我想這部分我要幫教育部講一些話我覺得應該是要串接起來一起來承接這些少年一起來協助我覺得這部分應該有待加強政府到底給這些處罰少年什麼樣的資源你可以簡單說明嗎"},{"start":9427.773,"end":9427.873,"text":"主席"},{"start":9443.254,"end":9443.714,"text":"．3月18日、20日及21日"},{"start":9460.285,"end":9488.839,"text":"人力真的不足啦支援真的有限啦那再來就是少輔會嘛現在少輔員社工能不能夠因應轄內的一個需求我覺得這個部分應該是不夠要怎麼去做一個輔導少輔會可能就要問內政部了因為行政輔導先行其實跟委員報告行政輔導先行其實就是我們被整個國際專家認為我們要廢除愚犯所以行政輔導先行是會由行政院由地方政府首長帶領的少輔會去進行少年的輔導事件"},{"start":9489.639,"end":9504.633,"text":"我另外因為都有加上台我就一併一起講啦我覺得最後還有一個要值得討論的少關所跟矯正學校現在安置人數有限如果安置人數都已經滿員了要如何安置這些人這也是我們應該值得去探究的一個問題啦"},{"start":9506.067,"end":9508.849,"text":"我都一併叫上台了嘛所以我想說有聽到問題可以直接回應沒關係"},{"start":9524.64,"end":9548.213,"text":"報告委員如果就少關所的部分原則上我們會在他出所因為他有時候是當庭釋放擇戶讓我們會盡快的聯繫他的學校那在少教校的部分教政學校的部分我們比如說他是出去校就學我們會跟當地的教育主管機關聯繫"},{"start":9549.534,"end":9565.066,"text":"所說我知道我現在的意思是說如果滿園了額滿了那你這要怎麼處理你有配套嗎整個少關所跟矯正學校滿園的話所謂滿園是說暴滿嗎安置人數啊有限啊那整個人數暴滿啊"},{"start":9565.95,"end":9590.869,"text":"安置的部分我們會跟當地政府或是更保來做聯繫我希望未來我們在更強力度的去關注這些議題的時候可能會有人數提升那我們應該要因應這樣子的部分我想教育部真的我們也要知道我還是要提醒一下庭長剛剛我們提到有些工作有些是教育部的但教育部他們應該要負責的是尚未處法的預犯"},{"start":9591.93,"end":9618.409,"text":"預防防罪的一個教育但是如果有些孩子他已經受到了這些保護管束了他應該司法部門應該要幫忙協助教育部來一起關注我想這些問題都是串接在一起的所以今天召集人才會幫我們把大家召集在這邊做一個聯席那我另外我要跟教育部再說教育部中小學目前有沒有辦理情緒跟溝通的一個教育"},{"start":9619.268,"end":9636.314,"text":"跟委員報告目前在十二年國教課綱裡面不管是在健體領域或是我們相關的輔導課程裡面確實有把這一個部分是一個重點因為發現到我想這部分我們非常的重視不管是倫理、道德、禮義、廉恥"},{"start":9636.954,"end":9638.354,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":9655.889,"end":9661.153,"text":"根本報告這個情形因為我們現在都在持續的設置當中那對於未來我們在修的這個協會輔法裡面有特別在談到不是輔導教師剛才那個是輔導教師的編制還有專輔人員就是各類的部分會在後續修法的這部分有在擴充有關專輔的這方面的人力"},{"start":9678.666,"end":9692.965,"text":"好我想這個東西我們都非常注意所以我還是最後要跟您再提一次因為上一次我覺得您有回應一個良善的一個溝通我們還是想要繼續追夜光天使的一個進度委員這部分國教室有跟台中教育正在談怎麼樣事辦"},{"start":9693.666,"end":9711.739,"text":"OK嗎?因為我想這個部分我們要跟這些有心人士、特殊的團體跟黑道來拔河搶孩子如果關注國中孩子在課後以後他們的一個相關環境、生活我覺得葉光天使真的能夠事班在台中現在經費有沒有問題?"},{"start":9713.24,"end":9713.26,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":9745.855,"end":9746.176,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":9762.072,"end":9788.037,"text":"部長好就是說今天呢因為其實校園的事情和事我們都不希望它再重演嘛所以我們都希望積極的預防所以今天就來跟部長討論一系列的一些相關的預防措施那首先呢是說我們可以看到這張圖表就是說我們學校的校園事件是屢創新高尤其是在國小增加了非常多的數量那在前面的委員也有關心到說你有提到我們會增加一個會修改這個任用條例來增補人力嘛是嗎"},{"start":9789.917,"end":9792.778,"text":"所以這次是反映了之前可能大家沒有通報的一個狀態"},{"start":9810.243,"end":9824.017,"text":"因為過去社會都會有關注說感覺好像學校是不是還有很多黑數所以這個是我們近年一直在強調的重點刻意學校有這樣的通報責任當然把通報的機制像那個專線改成用比較簡單的18531953的概念"},{"start":9828.962,"end":9849.132,"text":"這個數字真的增加了那我應該提到的就是說有關在我們依照原來學生輔導法目前都在增補當中的輔導教師跟專輔的人力那國小的部分會再提前到116學年度來完整這樣子我跟你們報告後續國中跟國小會增加2000多的輔導教師"},{"start":9853.834,"end":9860.456,"text":"副導教師那校園人員的部分呢?那個部分因為學務的這一塊我們有分階段來執行因為現在負擔比較重國中尤其大型規模既有的員偶編制準則61班以上他可以來增加一到三位那過去我了解到縣市可能經費有限這樣的學校也沒有真的去讓他雖然有準則可依據但沒有實際執行"},{"start":9881.422,"end":9907.676,"text":"現階段因為規模越大要處理的事務越多這個我們會優先的來補助縣市能夠把這個做成就是國中小都會一起嗎還是只有國中而已主要是國中後續會把原有準則再跟縣市討論要做一個修正希望不是只有61班以上希望在30班以下或30到60這個國中階段真的孩子也處於在身心發展變化大這個部分我們會第二階段處理"},{"start":9909.244,"end":9914.085,"text":"那我想知道這大概是什麼時候會去進行呢?那個有關61班以上的部分我們現在就會進行因為他的準則已經確定了那在低於60班以下呢?那個因為還跟縣市討論大概需要差不多一兩個月的時間因為那個修了準則縣市才會一起啦因為等於說涉及到人事編制的問題"},{"start":9930.25,"end":9949.492,"text":"好,那相關的那些計畫還有後續如果有一些怎麼追蹤的話再提供給我們辦公室,謝謝那再來第二個部分就是說因為我們可以看到就是說我們的這個因為我們有分八類校園事件嘛那其實八類裡面都有一個叫做其他的選項那其中呢我發現這個最多的暴力事件其實是暴力事件的偏差與偏差行為所以這是統計的數字"},{"start":9951.134,"end":9977.487,"text":"其中我觀察到我們有一個選項增加了73%叫做其他校園暴力或偏差事件等於說這個數量增加了這麼大到底是不是有新型態的暴力事件出現了而我們沒有發現呢?我們有詳細的去了解這裡面的類型嗎?這部分除了這幾大項以外其實我有請同仁、校安中心這邊再細分更多因為了解細分更多會比較真的去聚焦"},{"start":9977.807,"end":9977.927,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9995.481,"end":10002.308,"text":"這個我有請校園中心已經整理了我想把那個資料再給委員看整體數據是這樣只是它的分類更細了解那我想請教部長那我們還沒有再分類到地點這件事情因為它到底發生在什麼地方其實也是蠻重要可是我從現在報告是沒有看到的"},{"start":10012.598,"end":10032.78,"text":"那個可能要到我們那個校安通報的系統資料庫裡面其實我有請他們定期要把幾個我們說看起來就說造成這方面困擾更大的或發生頻率更高的這些有提但是沒有到各個每一個個案都分到這麼細"},{"start":10033.821,"end":10052.609,"text":"因為我想要講的就是說因為之前我們是有補助到地方縣市政府地方部組是有補助說要在校園裡面裝設教室裡面去補裝設這個緊急電話或是急救靈而是如果我們沒有真正的了解事件是發生在哪裡那有可能我們做這件事情是沒有辦法解決問題的那個應該不是教育部的政策應該是有部分縣市"},{"start":10054.79,"end":10056.812,"text":"提出來以後大家也發現到這個可能要斟酌啦因為我跟委員報告過去這幾年教育部在有關校園內我們叫做自然死角啦也就是比較孩子少去的地方或像廁所等等的其實補助了將近19億多"},{"start":10072.728,"end":10091.938,"text":"就是希望能夠改善這些孩子在那裡萬一一旦碰到什麼狀況可以做一個緊急比如那種急救靈等的類似或是照明因為有些地方很陰暗這連大學都補助所以我們其實在校園通報可以看到這些詳細的地點的分類對嗎應該說歸類比較重要的幾項類型"},{"start":10098.862,"end":10121.141,"text":"上個禮拜有個桃園式的快樂國小他們有做一個演習真的有外人闖進校園的時候要找小孩算帳的時候大家應該怎麼辦這個演練的過程是非常的逼真小孩都留下了很深刻的印象校方也說這可以提供小孩的安全意識我也知道在104年的時候其實教育部是有編"},{"start":10122.362,"end":10141.603,"text":"有頒布一個叫做強化校園安全防護機制的實施計畫並且要求這個這個全國高中以下的學校來執行那我想知道這個計畫現在還在執行中嗎是因為委員提到那個成立應變小組還有演練演練是各種的然後每學年至少要一次"},{"start":10142.344,"end":10171.329,"text":"每學年至少要一次原因就是說因為現在怕學校有時候會覺得平常可能也沒有特別去注意會不會發生什麼事情那當時我們就說你一定要有演練你一面小組才知道說真的碰到比如說啦碰到一個孩子像我們說發生的這個事件你一定要有個怎麼樣的啟動才會後續去做其他的整個處理甚至疏散等等的這一些這個不演練即使不是可能事情發生一定會手忙腳亂"},{"start":10171.869,"end":10172.589,"text":"每個學年現在是有要求的那我想就是說"},{"start":10199.049,"end":10221.379,"text":"我們其實現在有一個東西就是說因為其實校部長知不知道這一個案例就是說腐蝕奇蹟就是在那邊的小學當時在三一大地震的時候這個學校的小孩幾乎是99%的一個存活下來那他們在國中畢業之前接受了35個小時的防災教育所以是非常多的所以我希望就是說我們應該要提供的不同種的腳本"},{"start":10222.64,"end":10223.28,"text":"這件事是現在委員所提到的規範"},{"start":10241.914,"end":10242.514,"text":"提供學校與警政單位討論"},{"start":10262.584,"end":10262.925,"text":"好,沒關係,我們..."},{"start":10290.313,"end":10306.751,"text":"中介教育的部分上次我們其實有在講那當時是部長有講說三月底嗎但是我看今天的口頭報告變成是五月的時候才會三月底我們會把補助縣市建制的機制給縣市因為這之前跟縣市討論了三次那也希望說縣市因為我們也跟民間團體有討論"},{"start":10308.853,"end":10320.457,"text":"所以我想問一下就是說真的是提到是5月上面會完成跟他們至少簽妥這個就合作契約對合作契約那我想要知道現在各縣是簽妥的一個狀況是什麼因為現在我們3月才會把都還沒有簽"},{"start":10323.918,"end":10341.777,"text":"對 因為也聽取縣市很多的意見他們認為民間團體合作是一個模式他們也有縣市自己本身也有公設的部門他們也認為可不可以有這種機制我說本來就是它多元但目標都是有一個這一次的對象特別談到可能就是暴險少年跟司法少年為主要對象"},{"start":10342.979,"end":10362.297,"text":"我再問下一個就是說因為中介基地進去之後他們會受到什麼樣子的教育會不會有常規正常的教育去來協助他們不要剝奪他們的受教權第二個部分就是剛剛其實前面的委員都有提到那我想要問的是說少保官如果他覺得小孩可以離開了但是校方覺得不可以那這個學生他會怎麼辦"},{"start":10364.379,"end":10369.6,"text":"這個規劃就會跟學校教育體系的連結會更緊密就是說如果因為過去少保官、少教官、少真化對這些不顯少年是真正才有約束的能力他可以重新再看孩子的表現再做裁定他也可能讓他再回"},{"start":10391.664,"end":10415.313,"text":"稍關所可能再回矯正學校那一般教育人員可能比較沒有辦法有這個所謂這種對象那未來如果這個我們中介基地的安置這個討論的前提也是由這個我們說在做裁決前的討論跟決定那事後追蹤我想也希望這個幾個專業的人力跟機關也能夠一起這個才能夠真的貫徹啦"},{"start":10417.054,"end":10438.401,"text":"好,那我想就是在最後一句話就是說因為剛剛好像還是沒有聽到說他到底在學校在這個中階地域會不會有常規的教育所以這個也許我們事後也可以再跟那個教育部這邊請教因為我還是想要確保孩子在這邊有足夠的受教權那再來就是說還有一個就是說校方如果拒絕的時候該怎麼辦校方如果不讓他回去的話這也是我們事後再來詳細的討論,謝謝是,好謝謝"},{"start":10446.308,"end":10447.329,"text":"登記事項李懿錦委員"},{"start":10461.889,"end":10482.162,"text":"我想面對今天這個議題我們很清楚知道沒有人有權利剝奪他人的生命那也不論一時的憤慨或是年少輕狂都不是理由所以校園殺人事件而令人悲痛憤怒而且完全沒有辦法接受可是我既然今天要談到這個議題就要放下這個所謂的"},{"start":10482.842,"end":10508.894,"text":"私人的情緒然後要用立法委員的身份來跟您來探討我們如何防範這個悲劇於未然那我們試著想像一個情境就假設有一個15歲的少年是A在他國小的時候媽媽吸毒致死那和他相依為命的爸爸欠債又所謂槍爆彈藥前科那少年A的爸爸再婚繼母又因為販毒被關"},{"start":10510.074,"end":10534.87,"text":"那請教這個少年A算不算處在高風險又或是所謂的脆弱家庭那我們是不是是否要在避免標籤化的情況之下及早及急介入在少年A成長的過程中就給予輔導那面對少年A的情況我們現行的機制到底有什麼樣的資源可以給予協助部長"},{"start":10536.094,"end":10561.098,"text":"我跟委員報告這個委員所敘述這家庭的狀況如果不涉及到我們少年本身他就是我們常態的孩子那當然對於他的處遇跟家庭這方面我想在學校還有我們相關的一些資源應該給予常態的教育如果是經濟弱勢委員知道我們有或是學習上的弱勢我們是有幾個機制可以去幫助"},{"start":10561.658,"end":10562.138,"text":"3月18日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":10577.691,"end":10577.951,"text":"主席"},{"start":10607.591,"end":10609.593,"text":"中午犯下新北國三少年殺人案的背景相符合"},{"start":10630.615,"end":10652.57,"text":"那所以悲劇已經釀成那我想說我們就要防止第二條生命不能再犧牲那換句話說郭姓少年已經鑄成大錯可是罪與罰之間該怎麼拿捏才能真正讓一個那麼年輕那可是又犯下重大錯誤的人同時他在受處罰的同時也能改過自新不要一步錯步步錯"},{"start":10653.951,"end":10669.08,"text":"所以我們放在心上一件事就是說對於這些相當小的年紀就犯下大錯的人來看對他來講還是來日方長所以我們其實是要我們多的是我們跟他在社會上"},{"start":10669.56,"end":10671.401,"text":"一月4日教育部有召開所謂的校安諮詢會．潘部長您在會後有表示說將會跟地方、民間來合力．"},{"start":10691.355,"end":10696.457,"text":"擴充中介教育基地並建立個案輔導的評估機制經本辦跟徵詢專家的結論專家所關心的包含以下幾點建立中介教育基地要配置充足的心理專業人員"},{"start":10715.346,"end":10718.908,"text":"第二是我們這個處法少年回歸校園前的所謂的個案轉型的會議相當重要因為這個個案轉型的會議不只是一場會議而且它是一個緊密的網制就像我們秀愛PTT一樣"},{"start":10730.433,"end":10748.787,"text":"他其實是需要跨越部門跟專業的合作跟評估而且會議紀錄也應該正式發文讓各個單位配合辦理以便行政的溝通那第三是我們各縣市都有所謂的家庭教育中心那當然除了教育課程之外是不是也要針對"},{"start":10750.148,"end":10752.029,"text":"我跟委員報告有部份教育部這段時間給我來說明有些可能或許我們司法院或什麼來補充"},{"start":10772.742,"end":10772.922,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10792.426,"end":10803.909,"text":"特別會針對暴險少年或司法少年因為這個也就是有一些個案產生像比如新北的這個事件的這種對象我是舉例啦就比較希望如果經過我們一個機制裁定後覺得暫時還是不要立刻回歸到學校的這個做法"},{"start":10813.012,"end":10813.512,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10837.625,"end":10837.665,"text":"主席"},{"start":10858.712,"end":10859.552,"text":"上海大學教育學院副教授"},{"start":10880.197,"end":10880.958,"text":"請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席"},{"start":10899.521,"end":10921.309,"text":"一過這一段以後適不適合回學校我想用這樣的專業做評估應該會更客觀也會讓這些學生在回歸前得到比較適切的評估跟安置這個是我想對於目前我們在整個跨院的合作裡面這個都有共識那教育部啟動中介基地的協助縣市已經啟動那司法院這邊2月1日開始的那個事辦計畫我有詳細讀過真的也就是過去學校反映到"},{"start":10928.672,"end":10930.393,"text":"從頭到後面的追蹤也能確保少年在保護管束的過程當中是真正有調整"},{"start":10936.892,"end":10961.408,"text":"那接著因為最近有保姆虐童的事件先期社會很大的討論那本席對這起事件也感到相當痛心那我們為了防止這樣的悲劇再次發生所以是立法跟行政單位都絕不能這個懈怠的責任所以其實幼兒園也屢屢出現這種不當對待學童的事件那剛好准公幼"},{"start":10962.048,"end":10985.873,"text":"今年8月將邁入第三期 原所準備要重新申請這是一個全面檢視准公幼的機會包括他的辦學、教學、保育品質等等那我想之前全教總我指出准公幼政策上路之後統計六都違規的比例達到三分之一就等於說"},{"start":10986.533,"end":11005.297,"text":"每三家准公幼就有一家是有違規紀錄的那家長把心安寶貝送到幼兒園那必定是希望寶貝受到最好的照顧那本席對虐童絕對是零容忍所以我想對於幼兒園的幼教師跟教保員的工作權益有沒有得到保障我覺得這個攸關這個會不會有虐童的這個機會所以我想提高審查的門檻"},{"start":11013.459,"end":11036.315,"text":"對幼準工及嚴格監督這是必然的現在教育部正在擬定第三期草案目前的草案我想自今年8月起有要求師生比就當是我們努力的從1比15到1比12當然還要上傳午餐跟點心的照片還有教保委員員的薪資要調整調整2000塊也訂出所謂的退場機制"},{"start":11042.179,"end":11066.917,"text":"那當然我要就叫部長是說現在因為幼兒園已經陸續在招生中那部長剛剛好像也有回答說3月底會交這個審查的辦法這個案子到各縣市政府讓他審查那審查應該也需要一段時間所以如果有學校還沒有申請過關可是他已經"},{"start":11068.098,"end":11088.751,"text":"招生招生了就是說他已經導致報名好的學童們可能要改讀其他的學校這樣對這些學生是不是有權益上的損失家長是不是會措手不及那從總體面來看教育部到底有沒有掌握我們第三期的規定上路之後那全台灣到底有哪些總公幼會因此而退場"},{"start":11089.691,"end":11115.643,"text":"那受到影響的學生數大約有多少那有沒有預警的機制讓學校端跟家長都有所準備部長我跟委員報告確實目前這個第三期的合作契約的條件正在做最後的確認因為就是剛才委員所提到教保服務品質、教保人員的待遇還有管理那件事情還有加上生死比的幾個政策"},{"start":11116.523,"end":11124.985,"text":"所以重整後目前在3月底會正式公布對外那縣市也會依這個規範來做後續的審查如果有意願的那我也跟我們報告這個我們私校退場條例的概念會應用在這上面如果這個幼兒園已經不再續約那但是他本來就就讀小班、中班還繼續在讀的這些孩子會列為我們一定會去保障家長的這個權益的角度來思考"},{"start":11145.271,"end":11145.751,"text":"吳佩奕委員教育部長"},{"start":11172.256,"end":11189.912,"text":"委員好部長好去年不幸發生的新北市的歌喉案社會各界都很關心那後續我們教育部以及相關其他部會也啟動了多次的會議也啟動了相關機制的修正不過我還是希望就去年這個事件的通報"},{"start":11191.213,"end":11196.878,"text":"其中的細節事實想要做一個釐清因為當時我們非常關心的是因為第一時間新北傳出案件的時候學校對外對媒體發布的說這個是一個這個是美工刀造成的意外傷害但是根據我們教育部的校安通報的要點這個是屬於緊急事件兩個小時之內一定要完成通報對不對"},{"start":11218.979,"end":11228.702,"text":"所以我想請問當時這個學校有沒有在兩小時之內完成通報?若它是屬於緊急事故就我們的通報要點"},{"start":11239.099,"end":11241.08,"text":"請問當時我們收到通報的時候因為在我們通報類別裡面也是有分類的"},{"start":11257.085,"end":11279.822,"text":"有意外事件有暴力事件與偏差行為那因為當時媒體上面學校第一時間的時候對媒體說是一個意外所以我想請問當時我們教育部這裡收到通報校園中心收到通報通報過來的是屬於意外事件還是暴力事件委員這個我再確認一下好了不好意思現在有沒有資訊"},{"start":11293.605,"end":11306.56,"text":"為什麼我要問這個問題呢?因為我看了我們的通報要點以及後續的處理的流程等等你是意外事件還是暴力事件第一個對於學校的家長"},{"start":11308.41,"end":11322.155,"text":"他在心理的預期上以及準備上以及後續的處置他可能都會有極大的落差以及不同所以我認為正確通報的必要性是非常重要所以我需要確認當時通報給我們的是屬於什麼案件"},{"start":11325.776,"end":11343.563,"text":"跟委員報告我剛才請同仁確認當時兩小時之內的通報學校通報給校園的是暴力是暴力事件對暴力這個總統就我所知在事件發生之後我們教育部也協同新北市政府教育局也召開過檢討會議這部分我希望我們教育部能夠來協助輔導未來的地方政府要去輔導學校在事件發生的當下確認了事實之後再來對外做發布"},{"start":11354.767,"end":11356.068,"text":"在這個案件之後呢我們也注意到說像這樣的案件發生它其實是會造成"},{"start":11370.661,"end":11373.882,"text":"學生的集體的創傷它其實是一個集體性的事件因為這麼多人目睹了那學校我們原來就有新府相關的資源在本案發生之後在新北市的處置因為就我看的資料學校裡面的新府人力是不足的"},{"start":11389.508,"end":11392.989,"text":"我跟委員報告這組委員所提的在第一時間我了解後我也請新北教育局局長一定要除了受傷害的孩子還有行為人以外"},{"start":11413.815,"end":11414.596,"text":"請教育部、司法院及內政部列席"},{"start":11429.374,"end":11431.036,"text":"請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席"},{"start":11445.497,"end":11457.02,"text":"在整個進行過程當中還有相關的措施跟資源能夠及時做協助是 部長在我們教育部的這個規定裡面其實當學校有需求的時候因為各縣市的輔資中心資源條件也不大一樣學校也是可以來尋求校外外部的身心精神醫療資源等等相關的協助就本案來說我們學校有沒有尋求外部的協助應該這樣子說這個部分"},{"start":11472.824,"end":11473.304,"text":"請教育部、司法院及內政部列席"},{"start":11491.834,"end":11491.874,"text":"主席"},{"start":11513.617,"end":11530.124,"text":"我應該這樣子提到因為為什麼會有當時在設立輔資中心他其實主要就是希望能夠跨校際的屬於在一個縣市裡面能夠他不一定是指在輔資中心的成員你其他的所以我們有這樣相關的名稱那另外一個比較當然有涉及到我們學校也會跟比較多的應該都是跟醫療單位有合作的契約"},{"start":11539.147,"end":11541.888,"text":"部長我是建議這個部分我們是不是可以有明確的這個流程以及相關的清單因為台北市這幾年已經開始有在建立跟民間的這個資源的連結網絡這種在盤旗下機有的機制之下從這個個案發生如果有可以再強化的部分今天就我們看到"},{"start":11556.616,"end":11569.921,"text":"新北的這一案他輔資中心的人力一共是17人那輔資中心平常就有他們例行性的業務所以你當這個突發的意外狀況發生的時候他是需要一定的人力來進駐這個單位但倘若這個意外"},{"start":11573.322,"end":11573.502,"text":"在校園裡面我們可以啟動關懷輔導機制"},{"start":11603.052,"end":11607.975,"text":"然後呢在他進到曝險階段或是處罰階段成為少年司法案件之前中間有一個中介的過程那中介教育一個他是可以成為我們的防線也許他在關懷輔導階段"},{"start":11622.105,"end":11645.548,"text":"我們就可以成功的拉住他那一個是當他已經進入到少年司法案件之後我們經過相關的評估他可能也需要有不同的後續的這個中介的措施的方式所以我覺得中介教育是非常重要的但是我們看到在這個我這個字表上面在中介以及少年司法案件中間"},{"start":11648.202,"end":11672.06,"text":"有一群少年他是中輟生就我們現在手邊拿到的資料每一年我們國小的中輟生有將近300人國中的中輟生一年度有將近2000人這是屬於未就學也未就業的這個少年那現在這一群人在我們教育部裡面是由清法署來進行輔導關懷追蹤是不是"},{"start":11674.241,"end":11674.261,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11693.238,"end":11709.062,"text":"還有合作中途這些都還不是到我們這一次我們要強化的是有關真的司法少年從少關說我們的中介基地是用來協助已經處罰的司法少年沒有錯另外我現在講這些中錯生他只是未就業那我們現在清發署能夠去提供他們什麼樣的協助因為我們終究希望"},{"start":11717.284,"end":11717.965,"text":"國中畢業以後衛生學、衛教業的這方面請青年署擴大量能"},{"start":11733.095,"end":11738.258,"text":"現在目前服務量已經到3000多位了也就是比較希望能夠更去抓到如果他知道比如說這個孩子就準備要重考這個類似我舉例這個當然我們就不用那麼擔心這個孩子什麼都沒有這個就很要去做所以現在青胞組專案在處理這個衛生協會就業的部分是以這個機制能夠確實的掌握到每個個案的狀況過去的服務量能只有幾百位我覺得是不夠的"},{"start":11760.649,"end":11767.212,"text":"是 沒錯 因為我看了清法署我們這幾年相關的處置那事實上沒有錯我們每一年會開一次兩次的跨部會會議這一群未就業的青少年他們絕對也是需要我們來自跨部會橫向的聯繫來協助他們因為我們希望在他哪一個階段裡面我們就有機會把他們撈回來有機會讓他們可以回流"},{"start":11787.202,"end":11798.751,"text":"所以我看我們除了有跨部會的會議我們有分區的會議我希望我們教育部是不是可以來協助讓清發署針對未就學、未就業的這一群青少年我們是有機會能夠把他們拉回來讓他們有機會能夠回流到校園這部分我認為我們需要加強橫向的聯繫好 這部分我們再持續努力我說從過去幾百位到現在三千多位"},{"start":11814.462,"end":11814.582,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":11842.199,"end":11844.479,"text":"謝謝詹委請潘部長來部長委員好部長早安首先我這邊先請教部長之前我們深港鄉有發生一個三姊弟他在放學的時候穿越馬路發生車禍那這個其實我們全國各界都非常的關心也伸出援手來協助他家中的困境那大家也都非常關心兩位姊姊後續的醫療的狀況醫治的狀況但是在這邊我要請教部長"},{"start":11871.446,"end":11875.032,"text":"這個事件發生之後,學校對這三項事件．對在校學生有沒有啟動相關的心腹機制?"},{"start":11880.799,"end":11887.003,"text":"這部分我可能再了解一下因為除了說對這三姐弟我們後續的我們要來關心說他們的後續的治療的狀況那對交通安全的提升那其實對在校學生這一個是一個很大的衝擊所以說這個部分學校應該做一個妥善的一個處理來對學校的這些同學這些學生做一個心腹的這個"},{"start":11903.433,"end":11904.093,"text":"委員提醒那一段我再瞭解一下"},{"start":11932.665,"end":11952.811,"text":"關於今天的主題其實近日很多校園事件一流所聞那發生這樣子遺憾的事件本席也感到非常的痛心但是本席這邊更關心是說在我們事件發生之後教育部這邊有意義來修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項"},{"start":11954.772,"end":11965.178,"text":"這個修訂有沒有符合我們教育現場的需求這次的修正呢教育部是以校園安全諮詢會的意見然後新增了特定學生的定義條件以及校園安全檢查的這個機制的流程陪同人員的彈性措施等等並且在2月5號就修訂完成那請問部長喔新學期到目前為止實施的狀況如何教學現場的相關人員有沒有什麼意見的回饋"},{"start":11984.551,"end":12002.302,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這次的注意事項確實是做全面的盤點那也很細密的邀請我們相關,包括校長、教師、學生還有我們一些長期關心學童安全的團體還有縣市,詳細的開了7次的會議,就逐一逐一的討論"},{"start":12004.284,"end":12013.272,"text":"這裡面當然也包含有時候老師們關心的一到五突發事件他們在這方面怎麼做才不會說動輒得救有一個叫去除有關免罰的這個做法這個確實也是來自學校希望這方面能夠讓學校老師們在做必要管理的措施"},{"start":12027.125,"end":12033.968,"text":"在這個校園安全諮詢會這個意見我們納入之後我們來修訂我們是不是也要採納在教學現場老師們的意見、學校的意見對、然後這一次全面的討論裡面也包含到我們說剛才委員談到我們歸納下來對於說可能會造成其他學生、人員有生命、身體這種對象那也要能夠進行相關的不定期、隨時的安全檢查的概念"},{"start":12057.119,"end":12077.957,"text":"在校園的安全諮詢會上面教育部你們有提到就是說會規劃各縣市政府聯絡處呢要來增置高關懷學生的個案輔導員並且增置中小學學務以及校安人員等等的配套措施那這邊呢我要想要請教說我們目前這個配套措施的研議以及進度如何"},{"start":12078.377,"end":12083.961,"text":"那其實我希望說教育部你們在滾動檢討新的學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項這個實施成效呢你們要配合實施的狀況我剛剛提到的要配合現場教學現場他們的需求來做調整同時也要很積極的來推動因為相關的這個規劃我們趕快去實施才能去應應到越來越多這樣的事件發生"},{"start":12103.756,"end":12122.777,"text":"委員提到有一個對我們現在叫做各縣市的聯絡處當時大家在提這個構想的時候會覺得因為聯絡處其實我們的同仁包含軍訓教官、創新人力其實長期也都在協助這些我們說高關懷學生包含毒品防治等等的"},{"start":12123.978,"end":12147.715,"text":"在討論的過程當中學校校長或我們同仁他們比較希望說這方面是一個輔助還是希望能夠在學校端對於輔導人力能夠加速的來按照學務法來充實以及對於學務處很繁重的這個工作能夠增加因為那個是每個學校等於說日常會去碰到的行政書所以我們在這方面反而是大家經過幾次討論會先以這個為重點那聯絡處的部分"},{"start":12153.399,"end":12158.201,"text":"能夠持續來協助畫校間的這種工作所以還在規劃這個相關的措施還在規劃有關輔導教師的這部分的人力會提前先要說教育部你們這邊要積極也要再快一點"},{"start":12169.806,"end":12180.134,"text":"本席發現在校安通報中暴力事件跟偏差行為中國小、國中、高中每個階段的暴力事件是一年比一年多那你看一下這個資料從101年國小是968件"},{"start":12185.078,"end":12201.705,"text":"10年之間到112年變成9370件將近10倍那國中、高中都增加了將近有4倍有8000多件所以說國小學生這樣的暴力事件的增加的速度應該是"},{"start":12203.506,"end":12215.797,"text":"部長您也感覺到這是很嚴重的應該也跟我一樣是很震驚那除此之外國小教師有反應暴力事件的發生年齡層有向下延伸的趨勢在過去可能在高年級才會發生這樣的狀況現在從中年級從三年級開始就有這樣的現象發生這個部分"},{"start":12222.543,"end":12227.746,"text":"部長您知道嗎我跟委員報告這個112跟111或幾年這個部分其實通報的人數就如剛才委員所提到的這個這個我也跟委員報告一個情況因為過去外界很多的調查都說我們學生可能有受到霸凌或有這些衝突但是隱忍"},{"start":12244.835,"end":12247.317,"text":"當然部長您的意思我理解因為有通報所以我們才知道有這樣的事件所以造成說以前可能沒有通報所以不知道說有事件這麼多但是有這麼高的發生的件數這個是我們必須要去正視的它真的是一個很嚴重的現象"},{"start":12270.256,"end":12275.778,"text":"有老師分析可能是因為現在的網路科技比較發達學生接觸這些3C產品使用太多導致說我們的孩子現在比較少跟人實際上的去溝通也導致說他們的情緒控管能力會變得比較差尤其是這個短影音的影響因為它是一種快速表達跟快速的接收"},{"start":12289.921,"end":12296.306,"text":"所以說今天我指出這個現象是希望說教育部你們要正視這個狀況的嚴重性並且我們應該去分析是什麼原因造成孩子們暴力的這個事件增加我們在學校的課程裡面是不是應該要增加一些溝通的或者認識暴力相關的課程告訴我們孩子們溝通以及暴力行為這個溝通的重要以及暴力行為的不可取因為有時候其實我們孩子這麼小的年紀有時候他其實可能"},{"start":12319.705,"end":12324.549,"text":"沒有認知到說他這樣的行為是很嚴重的傷害暴力的行為有的孩子只是覺得說他是一種學習或錯誤的模仿但是他沒有意識到當他手中如果是有筆有美工刀的時候這個揮出去對其他人的傷害性有多大有多麼的嚴重所以這邊我要呼籲我們教育部我們要從源頭來追溯說"},{"start":12342.142,"end":12365.774,"text":"暴力事件發生以及這些偏差行為發生的原因並且我們應該融入課程讓教育孩子教育我們的學生這個暴力事件的嚴重性部長您覺得是委員所提的這個我非常認同我想從教育上尤其是不管是情緒或跟人溝通互動等等的這些在我們12年國教的課綱裡面其實有這個課程但是能夠再更深化強調我覺得很必要"},{"start":12371.397,"end":12375.002,"text":"有時候定在課綱裡面所以我剛才一直提到說教學現場老師的意見的反應非常的重要對對我跟委員報告就是因為有這個課就表示有這個課程尤其是我們像輔導專任的輔導教師那孫師是不是成效不佳我們要檢討這一點就我說我們要再深化"},{"start":12388.839,"end":12410.517,"text":"這邊再跟部長您討論根據警政署的統計通報112年少年嫌疑犯比上個年度增加了1000多人增加的幅度高達12.9%是將近13%那少年犯罪形態又以詐欺以及兒少性剝削增加的幅度最大其中兒少性剝削的增幅竟然高達60%"},{"start":12412.278,"end":12412.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12431.004,"end":12432.965,"text":"請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就:「教育部、司法院及內政部列席是否塗銷?」"},{"start":12458.695,"end":12459.976,"text":"網路的這方面造成的影響確實非常大所以我們對於這方面在學校的"},{"start":12480.665,"end":12488.489,"text":"有關資訊素養的這方面這個確實是一個重點那對於真的有關詐騙的這個現象我們從過去反讀入班宣導現在也把詐騙這個事情放進來不只是詐騙部長我在這邊要提醒你們就是說如果說我們的成效沒有那麼好就表示說我們該檢討這邊主席再給我一點時間我趕快把他講完那學校"},{"start":12508.055,"end":12520.901,"text":"學校的老師在面對孩子這些暴力偏差行為那其實有時候對象不只是學生對學生也會有學生對老師那根據教育部的統計我們高中以下的教師被不當對待的這個通報事件已經"},{"start":12523.962,"end":12529.483,"text":"也比往年從111年的71.6%到今年2月已經提升到88.7%相對的我們的教師他所面對的壓力是越來越大那我們的教師他透過這個新府的資商管道尋求協助的人數也一年比一年多所以說我們現在除了關心我們的孩子也要關心我們的教師因為他們承受著各種的壓力"},{"start":12548.328,"end":12549.309,"text":"教育部現在除了對我們的各學校來示範學生的心理調適價這邊也想請教育部這邊來研議是不是評估一下增加教師的心理調適價"},{"start":12563.507,"end":12563.547,"text":"請你們審慎評估"},{"start":12584.711,"end":12598.36,"text":"謝謝委員我想對老師心理支持我們今年的預算增加10倍就是希望也要幫老師解決他心理上的一些壓力那委員所提的調適下這個可能我們相關各類人員應該要一併的做一些討論謝謝好 謝謝部長接下來我們請范雲委員在范雲委員質詢結束完之後呢我們就要處理我們的臨時提案 謝謝"},{"start":12613.144,"end":12613.806,"text":"謝謝昭葦,據說有今天這個專題,我們請潘部長,謝謝"},{"start":12620.93,"end":12644.548,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12645.368,"end":12670.618,"text":"其實風險的來源有一個部分就是教育體系跟司法體系各自為政只要人不在自己的系統中就不管當然司法體系沒辦法兼顧課業教育體系輔導人力的不足讓少年教師同學家長目前都有很大的焦慮我們整理了從我們看到的資料當中就是這個暴險跟觸法少年回歸校園的問題中"},{"start":12672.759,"end":12674.141,"text":"發言委員．3月18日及21日三天一次會議發言委員．3月18日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":12687.817,"end":12688.478,"text":"您是否同意需要轉弦的機制?"},{"start":12718.38,"end":12745.692,"text":"我贊成,而且我跟委員報告這次也是我們幾個跨部會包括跨院的討論的一個重點就是在於我們這個少教官或少保官對於這些司法少年要做這個瞭解所謂的調查跟要做最終要裁決就是委員說是不是應該安置在什麼地方的判斷這一段是我們這次幾個跨部會、跨院非常聚焦討論有的共識"},{"start":12747.313,"end":12747.993,"text":"司法院主導的保護管束風險管理計劃"},{"start":12772.128,"end":12798.162,"text":"那我想請問的是就是我想請問先請部長好了我剛研究了一下就是說我們辦公室之前看到有點不清楚這兩個之間的關係社區中介教育跟司法院事辦中的保護管束風險管理計畫那你們要做分類跟風險評估就是我剛所講這一塊那這裡面有沒有學校的代表在裡面那個請問司法院的廳長謝廳長"},{"start":12800.646,"end":12825.395,"text":"那個保護管束風險管理計畫沒有你說委員是說你們事辦中的就是今年2月1號開始事辦到明年的跟委員報告其實從110年開始我們跟行政院包含教育部每個個案其實都會只要少年在學校上學那學校一定會跟法院法院也會跟學校但會密切的去了解學校在"},{"start":12826.756,"end":12843.417,"text":"會有學校的代表參與這個風險管理的個案的討論嗎?會,以台南地院來說,1號開始每個禮拜他們大概就會去檢討主案的去評估少年風險因子那如果說要開會就會通知學校派員來"},{"start":12844.298,"end":12844.698,"text":"我有跟委員報告"},{"start":12863.866,"end":12883.363,"text":"我們原來對不到叫做暴險少年或司法少年的這部分原來的教育體系就有關高官懷班或資源班或不資源班那個辭彙班跟中途學校合作的這種模式啦那這個模式基本上的對象"},{"start":12885.424,"end":12885.524,"text":"主席"},{"start":12915.064,"end":12919.409,"text":"教育部長,我們直接監督的是教育部,那是不是針對剛剛講的六都事辦的計畫跟你們社區中介教育跟回學校中間的評估"},{"start":12929.821,"end":12930.041,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12950.774,"end":12953.977,"text":"整個要啟動這個機制我覺得這幾個非常關鍵的比如說我們少年法庭的少保官或調查官或我們要即將準備要接受這個學生或原來就是這個學校的學生然後我們幾個相關的機構應該在這樣的討論過程能夠有充分的交換意見"},{"start":12974.696,"end":12977.019,"text":"這個是不是轉弦會議我不知道只是說這個會議我們認為在調查過程尤其是學校應該可以更深入了解到說這樣的少年到底他的整個行為的情況就是學校是不是接得起來"},{"start":12990.993,"end":12991.473,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13013.988,"end":13028.073,"text":"因為這個可能在進行中因為司法院這個我讀過這個方案是真的跟過去來講是一個更能夠對於這些暴險少年當然也要支持有更多的人力少保官來因為到事後比如裁決後的持續追蹤列管"},{"start":13032.754,"end":13043.697,"text":"其實這個需要時間跟人力那如果是這樣我覺得教育體系、學校體系跟我們司法體系它就連接得很好那個中介基地是一個場域就是說它可能要幾個月後評估後才適合回到學校但是這個人力上的幾個主管機關我認為是一個非常重要的串接"},{"start":13053.223,"end":13055.564,"text":"教育部規劃的這個社區中介教育基地我覺得非常的重要請問目前你們對於哪些少年需要進入這個基地那什麼時候離開有沒有規定那一樣的就是說這個本身回學校的時候是不是有轉嫌機制"},{"start":13075.672,"end":13080.356,"text":"這個就跟您上面所關心的我們教育單位跟司法體系會有關聯性的這個教育部跟各縣市未來在3月這個方案定下來5月開始這個其實我們當時設定的對象是有別於過去屬於中作孩子或家庭功能比較不彰的他不是暴嫌少年"},{"start":13100.193,"end":13117.472,"text":"其實我們本來就有幾個中途的教育的措施在那這一次這個基地比較是撫顯少年或司法少年為主要的所以在跟民間團體合作的這方面目前三十幾個團體也都是過去有接觸協助過撫顯少年的這種經驗的團體為主"},{"start":13122.216,"end":13124.058,"text":"關於最後回到校園之間誰應該參與轉弦的會議或機制也請部長一個月報告裡面一起給我"},{"start":13137.526,"end":13161.291,"text":"那因為時間的緣故我想直接問部長一個相關的問題剛剛並沒有人問的因為我們知道這裡面的觸法跟暴嫌少年其中有一種是性犯罪就是性侵的據說這樣子的一個少年那相關的輔導廚藝裡面它的每一關因為性媒體教育法主管機關是教育部那這裡面的每一關會不會有相關的專業人士參與跟進行呢"},{"start":13166.087,"end":13188.279,"text":"委員如果因為性別平等教育法所處理的大概都是跟這些性別事件但是委員所提到這一類對象的學生過去教育部也在全國有幾個地方就是有關屬於性剝削等的已經是處罰的了他也有幾個中途學校"},{"start":13189.52,"end":13205.513,"text":"因為我們上週《性平法》、《三法》剛好三八婦女節實施九鎮學校我們也設置了性平會那教育部是不是也可以就是說回去檢視一下那少年在不同的階段相關的機制裡面是不是都有專業的人員一起參與他的輔導處置"},{"start":13209.997,"end":13213.041,"text":"現在目前如果說已經經過防治條例的這些措施之後的學校目前就是有幾個據點以這個對象為一個處理"},{"start":13228.3,"end":13252.125,"text":"那相關的這部分也給我辦公室一個月一個報告好嗎好這個關於這個性犯罪的部分那最後呢我想針對司法院的部分我非常認同就是你們目前的人力不足以承擔這麼重要的工作那調查跟保護目前沒有分類調查官兼保護官也是個問題那我想我們應該要一起爭取鬆綁員額能夠增加少年調查官跟保護官的人力讓他們能夠適當的分工"},{"start":13258.246,"end":13259.227,"text":"今天有委員提出臨時提案共計三案我們現在先請宣讀"},{"start":13275.168,"end":13294.619,"text":"一案,私立學校並列入《專府學校及停辦建築博古牌效應》出現．對此,學校受教以及教職員工權益務必權利行為．但所屬教師轉職等相關事務應應列入協助．以免故此失禮。私校退場條例於2022年公募實施後．"},{"start":13295.699,"end":13300.944,"text":"專府及停辦學校教師離職轉校之契約、賠償以及離職證明取得等問題重申政府有照顧並保護學生、教職員與教師之義務會避免造成後續問題不斷擴大應針對私校退場條例以及相關原則規定進行檢視與補強第二案"},{"start":13316.079,"end":13334.253,"text":"有鑒於中華足球協會以剝削式的合約．並以恐嚇威逼式說法．要求女足國家對球員簽訂情誓．該協會主措以嚴重影響國人信任．讓球員心生恐懼的心理壓力．造成女足發展阻力．"},{"start":13334.773,"end":13362.455,"text":"依據國民體育法第33條以及第43條規定（體育署應主動介入並進行後續督導考核（讓體育競技及女足發展重回正軌（找回國人信心。第三案東海國中從民國57年創校到現在（一直是臺東學生數規模第二大的國中（但是創校56年來一直都沒有體育館（跟大型室內學生活動中心（"},{"start":13363.215,"end":13380.074,"text":"五十六年來沒有任何一屆的畢業生是在學校的禮堂參加完畢業典禮走出校園五十六年來無數教職員學生殷切期盼能夠容納全校師生的大型室內活動場館"},{"start":13381.375,"end":13407.904,"text":"為解決該校此疑困境．臺東縣政府積極籌備相關預算．為該校活動中心新建經費高達一億二千萬元．臺東縣政府已利用花中基金申請七千萬元補助．人有五千萬元的缺口需要中央協助．為維護東海國中師生教育權益．保障學生活動安全．原提案要求教育部應於一個月內邀集各所屬機關．召開會議延伤"},{"start":13411.705,"end":13423.188,"text":"經費補助是與提案人萬美玲、柯志恩、羅廷偉、葛羅鈞、黃建斌宣的完畢好,我們針對第一案那個提案人林倩琦委員有沒有意見?針對第一案我們教育部這邊跟我後來有一個通案的好,那我們請部長來做修正說明好不好?好,謝謝那部長可不可以請做一些修正說明?"},{"start":13440.046,"end":13455.71,"text":"好,謝謝主席還有各位委員針對第一案您委員的跟我們幾位委員的這個提案剛才跟委員這邊有做報告可能會做部分文字的修正我說明一下就在說明3的第一行開始"},{"start":13459.191,"end":13473.908,"text":"教育部應針對私校退場條例後面我們就發函要求各校針對那個我們就建議把它刪除之後定定有關教師聘任契約之離職賠償以轉職證明等約定時應"},{"start":13481.676,"end":13505.678,"text":"符合一般法律規定或比例原則例如教師離職預告超過60日及不應要求離職賠償或拒絕發給離職證明等提供私立學校來做一體試用做參考那詳細的文字如果委員同意我們再把這個給我們議事組這邊可以做這個文字的整理"},{"start":13509.673,"end":13512.555,"text":"教育部,體育署這邊有來調了幾個字那是不是這幾個字我們也同意就比較中性一點的寫法"},{"start":13531.861,"end":13532.081,"text":"補充說明"},{"start":13562.301,"end":13582.856,"text":"求委員等到該協會舉措以後面那幾個字也刪除嚴重影響國人信任那幾個字刪除還有讓求委員心生心理壓力、恐懼的那幾個字委員同意刪除那在說明的一經爆料中華足協要求"},{"start":13583.834,"end":13602.079,"text":"後面剝削選手還逼迫這幾個字我們就刪除然後說明一的第二行提訴雖曾從旁瞭解但主席仍一意孤行這幾個字做刪除修正然後說明是因為這個案子主席已經這個"},{"start":13604.119,"end":13604.479,"text":"有關於第三案的部分"},{"start":13632.797,"end":13633.578,"text":"提案委員黃建斌"},{"start":13654.81,"end":13658.511,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進列席的政府機關事長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體及女士先生"},{"start":13683.926,"end":13702.674,"text":"有幫節省時間了吧有請潘部長委員午安部長好部長我們今天都在關心一些校園內的暴力那你認為現在少子化你覺得我們青少年的犯罪率是降低還是提高"},{"start":13703.609,"end":13712.296,"text":"像所謂的校園安全亮起紅燈大家認為暴力事件是現在最大對學生的侵害你認為呢暴力事件是目前學生犯罪的最主要的原因嗎"},{"start":13732.206,"end":13753.14,"text":"跟委員報告如果就我們掌握到通報的這些內容裡面應該來說有幾個類型就包含剛講暴力等等的通報這些算多還有一個其他的類型我告訴你其實大家有一個錯誤因為暴力是很矚目但大多數的青少年犯罪是什麼是詐欺"},{"start":13754.727,"end":13774.292,"text":"炸器才是目前我們青少年犯罪率當中節節升高的主要原因它對我們學子的強害、違和更甚於一個暴力事件往往下看其實啊為什麼學生會去參與炸機?您覺得呢?他是當車手嘛對,這個是我們掌握到對,那為什麼學生會去當車手?"},{"start":13776.806,"end":13802.301,"text":"有些誘因吧有誘因但是他可能看在錢的份上他可能不曉得後果很嚴重教說青少年犯罪是加重刑責教說的人很清楚找年輕人去犯罪找學生犯罪很嚴重的但是往下看但是青少年當車手他的未來怎麼樣對他一輩子的影響他可能信用破產他可能沒辦法貸款買房子這個部長你覺得我們的年輕人知道嗎"},{"start":13804.071,"end":13827.45,"text":"有些可能不那麼清楚是的所以我覺得呢其實青少年犯罪除了少數的暴力事件讓大家社會矚目之外更潛藏著這些青少年他的觀念上他不曉得這些犯罪的嚴重後果所以呢我們看到有一個施改前進校園講座的列車啟動你知道他們到哪裡去宣講嗎重庭給你標出來了"},{"start":13831.94,"end":13832.48,"text":"大專校園"},{"start":13855.469,"end":13860.474,"text":"目前看到有一些有幾年齡稍長18歲以下確實是這個教育部因為行政院有一個防詐的辦公專案所以我們會再討論委員這個建議我想我們會提出來"},{"start":13873.027,"end":13901.122,"text":"因為這個市改列車是法務部在主導的啦我會請法務部來繼續參與來,法務部的也請上來,待會問到你另外呢,學生參與市改現場給予一些回饋降低犯罪另外一個作法呢,就是讓學生知道你犯的罪不只你自己未來的發展人生會受到影響你也害了人家造成的傷害往下看這個是日本來那個法務部的是是哪一位?是廳長嗎?"},{"start":13903.718,"end":13912.626,"text":"教政署周署長跟朱責任檢察官來 那個署長是你知道日本有一個感化教育的機構吧"},{"start":13915.205,"end":13935.815,"text":"知道所以他們目前的做法就是說讓這些少年院就是我們說的我們的類似少監或者說矯正機構的少司法他們去理解被害人他們家屬的心聲讓他從這樣的犯罪受害人的一個心理去同理去檢討他你覺得我們台灣的矯正學校會參考辦理嗎"},{"start":13938.862,"end":13960.3,"text":"報告委員我們矯正學校是會做一些比如說相關的入校的一些輔導調查讓他去了解被害人也是很痛苦的有沒有做到一個同理心的教育我們會有三級輔導來 那個部長你覺得這個有沒有需要在法務部的矯正學校去加入這種事情這樣的一個同理的一個課程"},{"start":13962.609,"end":13971.406,"text":"如果從教育的角度我覺得是能夠讓他們多一點機會我來介紹一位是他們的名陽的校長但是他說到了他這裡啊"},{"start":13973.001,"end":13995.615,"text":"他能救的很有限大概大多數會在回籠只成為成年犯而已為什麼他這麼悲觀他說10歲就決定了啦什麼意思他看了這些少年犯他瞭解他們成長過程很多都是私能家庭下的受害者他們10歲的人格偏差造成偏差行為一步步走上歧途他說教育資源、輔導資源要及早投入您同不同意"},{"start":13996.095,"end":14022.543,"text":"同意 同意好 往下 各位報告學生輔導法為什麼我們這次增加人力 就是在小學的部分也是這樣的概念是的 所以我很開心的看到 欣慰的看到你們有一個計劃 今天的書面報告要提早在國小的輔導人力116年度完成 提前4個學年對 是 所以我最後結論的 因為主席的要求 我們的結論法務部是不是可以加強青少年的法治教育 四改列車開靠的中學及高級中學的教育現場 國中跟高級中學可以嗎"},{"start":14023.783,"end":14029.067,"text":"請教育部提出到116年你們整個國小輔導人力的增補計畫讓我們知道教育部很積極地在辦理"},{"start":14049.69,"end":14057.213,"text":"好 謝謝莊建斌委員 謝謝部長 那我們接下來謝依鳳委員 謝依鳳委員 謝依鳳委員 黃建斌委員謝謝主席 請教一下我們的教育部部長謝謝"},{"start":14080.089,"end":14080.209,"text":"主席"},{"start":14110.269,"end":14128.22,"text":"謝謝部長 部長本席再次強調就是貧窮不是台東的原罪貧窮也不能限制孩童他的未來跟發展這邊我要再請教育部就針對本席提的這個案子能夠來協助以及未來台東的跟教育有關的資源等等來挹注在台東偏鄉這邊來協助他們發展"},{"start":14129.94,"end":14129.98,"text":"主席"},{"start":14143.424,"end":14164.958,"text":"部長今天質詢之後臺東縣的所有的教師、教職員應該都很感謝那同時我想要再幫教職員講一些話就是我們最近發生的校園暴力的事件我覺得其實在討論到學生人權的同時其實我們也要去考慮到學校管理這一塊本期建議真的要合理的授權來共同維護校園的安全"},{"start":14166.138,"end":14191.834,"text":"我們剛才提到就是學生進入校園之後他所帶的違禁品這件事情是會造成很大的隱憂因為你根本不知道學生的書包裡放了什麼東西所以這邊也要請教育部這邊來研議那盡量避免發生這樣的憾事特別是剛才我們中央兵委員提到的小學的部分學生很多他不懂他會去模仿會學習像小朋友會帶著像我的小孩才7歲他帶著堂皇老學校玩"},{"start":14192.754,"end":14193.195,"text":"請教育部發言委員"},{"start":14209.995,"end":14227.506,"text":"我跟委員報告這次確實從新北的這個校園事件後教育部跟地方政府還有我們相關的這些校長、教師、學生團體做了很深入的討論當中跟老師的這個輔導管教的這方面也在這一次裡面有一個阻卻這個違法事件"},{"start":14229.867,"end":14252.501,"text":"就讓老師在面對這些做管教上面能夠不要去接受到處分甚至影響到考機這是這次注意事項裡面一個重要的修正重點那另外像有一些我們說比較有傷害他人生命的這些特定對象在整個安檢的這方面也支持學校應該要有一個更機動的這樣的一個機制"},{"start":14255.663,"end":14255.843,"text":"．3月18日及21日"},{"start":14272.815,"end":14300.374,"text":"謝謝部長相信部長在這個會後應該會研究出一個更適合未來我們在管理上的方法確保不管是學生或是老師在校園安全上能夠來提升那再次的也再次謝謝部長的允諾那謝謝對台東未來的資源能夠更加的投入那謝謝部長謝謝主席主席謝謝謝謝台東來的建兵委員他大概是我們這個今天最有禮貌的對不對跟你謝了好多次謝謝部長"},{"start":14306.217,"end":14311.319,"text":"林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員、林月琴委員教育部部長、法務部教政署署長、周署長委員好"},{"start":14332.843,"end":14357.399,"text":"部長好我想新北這個案子我覺得教育部應該有很多要去檢討可是先來談就是轉型機制因為從高結構的一個轉到非結構那的確如果你要進到學校體制裡邊的確有很多問題要面對因為整個銜接準備不僅要有連續訓"},{"start":14358.5,"end":14382.578,"text":"最主要下降我們的再犯率可是孩子進入到回到社區裡邊事實上是家庭如果是失功能的話事實上有一點困難可是我看現行的整個轉型機制大部會間真的就是在各做各的如果事實上是過去高結構要走到非結構的話有沒有更多的機制把孩子接住可是看起來"},{"start":14383.739,"end":14388.982,"text":"校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸"},{"start":14405.002,"end":14411.447,"text":"整個的轉嫌目前我看到的幾乎就是按照我們兒童權法裡邊71條我覺得這個就要問法務部這邊因為轉嫌只有資料轉嫌"},{"start":14419.059,"end":14446.344,"text":"那幾乎事實上是沒有所謂的關係轉型那這樣在矯正學校所提供的一些教育處理第一個也不見得是符合孩子的需求他沒有去提供甚至他未來回到學校裡邊他回歸社區的能力跟意願有沒有提供比較適合的支持功能在教育這一塊看起來事實上是沒有"},{"start":14447.544,"end":14472.219,"text":"甚至於關係轉型這一塊在前年二全公益審查的時候主席Duke講到說你如果要孩子在角質體系裡邊如果父母要能夠去銜接上的話基本上應該是要讓他能夠去看他可是如果我今天住台北跑到桃園去只讓他面會30分鐘所以他問我們說到底你"},{"start":14472.759,"end":14493.399,"text":"可以讓家長跟他接觸的可能性是什麼有沒有就近性就便利性甚至時間我們30分鐘韓國還有合宿的那個宿舍那讓他們可以跟孩子有比較建立比較好關係為什麼要建立如果沒有做關係轉現一旦孩子回到社區就會發生新北的這個案子也就是"},{"start":14494.5,"end":14504.286,"text":"到社區社工比藥頭跟當派還要難搶到小孩所以如果不做好這個狀況的話沒有做好社區轉型的時候那大概"},{"start":14505.66,"end":14506.1,"text":"今天點名部長跟我們的署長"},{"start":14531.374,"end":14531.714,"text":"施法不退縮"},{"start":14556.38,"end":14564.248,"text":"沒有問題希望能夠落實這個相關規定然後積極提供我們少年必要的協助再麻煩我們的謝廷長"},{"start":14568.148,"end":14591.743,"text":"謝謝還有一個學輔邀集席那就是我們的教育部可不可以趕快把學輔法送出來已經擱置了滿一段時間而且學生輔導諮商中心如果採任務編制非正式機構的話在各縣市運作不太相同的話基本上幫不上學校的忙沒辦法把孩子去接住另外一個我覺得"},{"start":14592.984,"end":14607.7,"text":"這個已經也是社安網的一部分家庭教育中心本來我們期待的功能已經補社工進去是不是要讓這社工更有功能來協助家庭改善否則孩子回到社區家裡又失功能的話根本沒有辦法做好事情所以也請"},{"start":14608.601,"end":14634.939,"text":"部長這邊對於家庭教育中心可不可以針對應該要主動介入這個能夠落實因為法裡邊本來就有規定可是我現在看不到家庭教育中心功能過去我在民間在六都單獨兒少委員會的時候每次在提案都提說那你們社工有的社工到現在還沒到位所以請部長可不可以督促各縣市趕快到位因為轉弦制度的改善方式要從家裡跟社區跟"},{"start":14635.419,"end":14637.74,"text":"羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員和新淳委員"},{"start":14666.499,"end":14669.212,"text":"謝謝召委科召委喔 那我們是不是請部長好 部長"},{"start":14674.116,"end":14678.699,"text":"委員好部長好好久不見部長過去我一直在教育委員會我們也就今天相關的校園問題跟孩子的一個輔導問題我們已經當面溝通了好多次但是很遺憾或是說我認為好還可以更好就是說我們發生了一連串的事件告訴我們不夠好我們還必須要再檢討再改進"},{"start":14700.933,"end":14701.473,"text":"臺中某校園也發生家長攜帶武士刀進入校園"},{"start":14718.766,"end":14719.907,"text":"校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸"},{"start":14739.74,"end":14758.448,"text":"事前就可以預防事前如果沒有辦法預防的時候事後如何面對處置我覺得這個整個緊急應變的SOP這個是全國性的問題是保護我們的孩子所以部長就這幾件事情發生了之後我們的檢討是什麼"},{"start":14759.068,"end":14788.032,"text":"是 跟委員報告當然就這些事件後教育部邀請各縣市還有我們相關團體校長、老師們大概做了蠻多討論也把原來跟這個校安有關還有老師的輔導管教那個注意項做全面的調整那這個裡面確實也在老師的輔導管教這上面能夠賦予老師有一些更合理有效的這個管教部長我舉個例子成就基層的教師就來跟我"},{"start":14788.652,"end":14812.269,"text":"反映說,比如說孩子帶一些比較所謂的危險物品進入學校那在書包裡面,老師沒有權限可以收書包這第一點第二點,老師怎麼如何從何而知他可能攜帶危險物品這個是面臨到剛剛部長你講的我們可以給校方或者是老師到某哪個程度的一個"},{"start":14814.332,"end":14815.212,"text":"家長攜帶武士刀進入校園誰可以發現他裡面有帶武士刀"},{"start":14830.779,"end":14841.703,"text":"所以在這個部分我們也做了像委員所說的有一個非常完整的可操作的手冊主要是讓學校可以來進行這方面那當然委員提到一個非常關鍵的那個學校還是要我們對於已經就是本來就有相關應變的這個小組跟演練因為演練這件事情我覺得才能夠提升他們真的碰到緊急事項也可以去做應變"},{"start":14858.269,"end":14874.845,"text":"部長應該是說就各種情境去做一個模擬然後去做一個討論甚至建立起你剛剛說的不同情境之下的一些安全問題我們如何能夠緊急及時的反應跟處理"},{"start":14876.727,"end":14902.347,"text":"由如何在第一時間上面可以跟其他相關的單位比如說警政單位如何合作如何來面對這個緊急的危急的一個狀況這個其實我知道寫手冊寫SOP是必要但是模擬在現實實務面上發生的當下如何處置其實是更重要委員所提的這個真的是關鍵因為現在我們所給學校的本來在有關"},{"start":14906.27,"end":14912.933,"text":"跟臨近的警政單位合作這是每個學校都要具備政治是用最緊急鍵當發生的時候你一按事實上就會連結到我們說派出所他們就會來支援那剛才委員提到那個演練本來在我們給學校縣市的這個裡面就有每學年一定要但是落實這件事情我覺得教育部可以再激進"},{"start":14934.144,"end":14934.344,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":14956.8,"end":14959,"text":"每學年你一定要去做各種的幾個樣態我覺得應該來做這方面應該更弱一個這樣的練習其實對孩子、對老師、教職人員來講也是一個維持防護的意識"},{"start":14982.425,"end":14986.248,"text":"所以再拜託部長這應該跟地方教育直接來做好然後把它落實那另外當然時間不夠我還是要提醒部長校園裡面的這個毒品問題這個很多家長都不斷的在關心跟反映希望政府應該要有更積極的作為那還有學生輔導法過去我們修法所以呢我們那個輔導的人力要增加要補強那我希望能夠到位跟落實"},{"start":15010.629,"end":15012.47,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長還有體育署署長。"},{"start":15038.368,"end":15054.924,"text":"部長、署長也許上一次執行的主題就是足協竟然拿了國家每年拿了國家上億的補助結果連足球員的錢都在欠上一次執行完了以後我馬上就接到投訴了"},{"start":15055.885,"end":15079.344,"text":"上一次署長說去年欠的錢都還完了但署長可能忘了附加補一句前年的錢一堆都還欠著為什麼前年的錢一堆都還欠著我們的主協理事長那個時候鄭文燦那時候鄭文燦在到主協理事長的時候說中華男竹睽違三年半首勝要發30萬獎金鼓勵全隊"},{"start":15082.806,"end":15107.398,"text":"結果我收到我們這一些足球國角他們的投訴是什麼他們的投訴是你根本不要講鄭文燦所講的30萬獎金連出場費、集訓費、車馬費到目前為止我在表格上面所列的這一些國角他們一致的反應是一毛錢都沒有拿到"},{"start":15109.371,"end":15115.807,"text":"這個是我們足協對待我們這一些國角的方式嗎?署長這件事情你有沒有掌握?"},{"start":15117.196,"end":15141.004,"text":"報告委員目前竹鞋還有八千萬的債務目前的確還包含大約四百萬是選手的部分以及工作人員的部分所以要欠到什麼時候報告委員這部分竹鞋目前跟廠商還有竹鞋跟廠商怎麼樣我不管啊他們已經承諾今年所以這一季是以選手的這部分的欠款優先來償還這樣叫優先來償還喔他是以今年這一季開始"},{"start":15145.607,"end":15163.423,"text":"當初這件事情發生的時候竹賢秘書長是誰當時在累積的債務是在在我之前的那一任秘書長方敬仁的期間累積表現我說在第一次這一場鄭文燦宣布要給他30萬獎金這一場的經費應該已經還了那時候秘書長是誰這一部分是我是你 有還嗎這一部分應該已經還了我再跟你講一次"},{"start":15172.331,"end":15194.978,"text":"這些人全部投訴在12月111年12月之前的的確還沒有還沒有錯沒有給嘛就你當秘書長的時候嘛我是在12月的時候當秘書長這一場應該是還的可以這樣子對待足球國角嗎更離譜的事情是什麼報告委員去年足場費他們的確足血有在去年的部分差點陸續償還但是他們的確在111年之前的確沒有辦法還你說陸續償還償還了哪一個人"},{"start":15199.403,"end":15217.64,"text":"報告委員112年的確沒有在虧欠但是他們足協的確表明他們現在還有現在我具體的問法2022年國際足球友誼賽浩大喜功啊頒30萬的獎金啊就搞到現在2024年啊連出場費都沒給啊可以這樣搞喔可以這樣搞喔報告委員他們已經在陸續長環沒有錯"},{"start":15226.212,"end":15245.66,"text":"要欠這些球員欠到什麼時候?他們希望在今年可以把這400萬把它還清你們這些喔當初去當理事長、當秘書長現在當行政院副院長、當體育署署長拍拍屁股不關你們的事了報告委員在他累積快速累積債務的期間並不是在我任內到底是在誰任內啊?你們自己去吵足球員關心的事情是什麼?"},{"start":15254.341,"end":15258.645,"text":"幫我們國家為國爭光,到現在還欠錢,部長可以接受嗎?"},{"start":15260.769,"end":15288.877,"text":"委員這個我想代表國家去我們一定要做最大的努力那我也一直請所長因為他對這個生態也了解啦那也積極的說目前這個債務的償還一定要設定剛才委員所提到的對球員的設定到什麼時候現在這些足球員啊很無助啊他們被人家踢來踢去踢來踢去啊當初做新聞很會啊做公關很會啊真的足球員連出場費都沒拿到"},{"start":15290.346,"end":15311.441,"text":"無人聞問啊!無人聞問啊!部長可以接受嗎?委員這個部分我想教育部體育署這邊也做了徹底要求剛才我跟委員報告的今年一定要解決虧欠...原因說今年喔?要簽到年底喔?他現在我是說能夠積極趕快處理這個事情需要多少時間?需要多少時間?"},{"start":15318.254,"end":15334.963,"text":"不敢給大家答案喔?更離譜的是什麼?這件事情請部長、署長回去查清楚錢沒有拿到喔?結果竟然中華民國足協的扣腳平單寄給人家咧?發扣腳平單的是足協欸"},{"start":15336.368,"end":15348.573,"text":"我那時候知道這件事情後我大驚失色欸球員沒有拿到錢結果有扣繳平單說要扣他的稅部長你會不會覺得很誇張這是怎麼回事錢到哪裡去了"},{"start":15351.857,"end":15374.91,"text":"沒有獎金錢沒有給人家有扣繳平單欸現在是錢逐血放在口袋裡面沒有發錢給球員然後出扣繳平單說欸你的錢已經入帳了要扣稅部長這件事要不要徹查提訴已經在查單這件事要不要徹查是喔需要多久"},{"start":15376.53,"end":15404.768,"text":"我老實跟你講喔我老實跟你講喔這個已經不是欠錢不還喔這個有偽造文書喔違反商業會計法喔沒有給人家錢趕出扣繳平單說錢都給了理不理虎部長需要多久委員這不是讓體育署因為他現在正在查處這件事需要多久需要多久三個月內好不好三個月需要這麼久喔那查清楚嘛"},{"start":15405.71,"end":15408.171,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員 謝謝部長、署長接下來我們請翁曉林委員"},{"start":15434.216,"end":15435.599,"text":"主席,有請部長。"},{"start":15441.235,"end":15467.403,"text":"是部長好我想這些年其實大家都非常關心校園安全的問題那麼尤其從去年發生了這個新北市國中生的這個刺警案然後到最近那又陸續看到新聞上有這個北投高中的這個特教學生的這個情緒他跟老師之間的衝突然後陸陸續續又還有一些案子其實這些問題其實都"},{"start":15469.724,"end":15472.69,"text":"重寫了一個蠻嚴重的問題就是在現在的校園裡面的暴力行為是不斷地攀升麻煩下頁"},{"start":15481.308,"end":15505.688,"text":"大家可以看到其實從100年到112年有關於就是國小、國中和大學的暴力事件的數字那這個圖表其實是來自於教育部有個校園安全暨災害防救通報處理中心資訊網上面我所找到的資料那在這個資料裡面顯示你可以看到其實從國小的暴力事件從100年到112年它暴增將近8倍"},{"start":15510.473,"end":15529.51,"text":"國中與大專院校的暴力事件大概就是這十年大概也提升兩到三倍以上所以再再地顯示其實校園暴力事件的問題這個已經不是一個最近才發現的而是一個已經這十年來長期都看到的狀況我想請問就是部長您看到這樣子的一個統計數字您的看法是什麼"},{"start":15535.535,"end":15553.642,"text":"是,跟委員報告那確實過去校園內這種學生跟學生之間的一些衝突甚至霸凌的社會各界都關注所以教育部在近年也強力的要求啦這個因為過去也都說很多孩子真的受到霸凌或什麼又不敢講就所謂的隱忍"},{"start":15554.502,"end":15560.186,"text":"這個現象我們一直覺得學校應該要更在這上面真實的去把相關的情形要做通報所以我們對通報上這幾年我也有看到這樣的一個數據當然這個重點或是你通報之後後面對於查處跟我們才能夠進一步的去做這方面的追蹤"},{"start":15576.139,"end":15592.219,"text":"謝謝部長的回應我想這個部分的話基本上已經不是只是單純的被霸凌很多的衝突事件都在校園裡面產生那您認為這個部分其實跟現在校園裡面師長跟學校他的管教"},{"start":15593.22,"end":15594.561,"text":"對於現在的學校跟老師的教育管教權"},{"start":15612.813,"end":15616.177,"text":"校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸"},{"start":15630.675,"end":15630.815,"text":"請問一下部長"},{"start":15652.535,"end":15665.055,"text":"您也常常有出國您知道我們出國的時候經過海關海關人員會針對我們的行李進行檢查嗎?會那您認為為什麼有檢查的必要?他這樣檢查沒有侵害我們的隱私權嗎?"},{"start":15666.441,"end":15675.147,"text":"委員我想因為出入大概跟這個尤其是航空的這方面的安全我想到各國大概都簡單來說這跟公共安全有關 是然後麻煩下一頁那麼為什麼學校的老師還有這個來進行這個書包的檢查這就侵犯了隱私權難道也不與這個難道不會與這個學校的安全有關嗎跟我們報告"},{"start":15692.518,"end":15697.199,"text":"因為過去檢查的過程也出現了一些有點過度的有些是過度了所以才會有些討論那我想就是有關於這個部分其實這應該是要回歸到由每個學校自己去訂定校規然後依據學校的各個不同的狀況來規範學生的這個獎懲的行為那麼現在其實依照我們現行的法律校規應該是不是由學校自主訂定呢"},{"start":15722.504,"end":15726.005,"text":"校規定定要經過學校的校務會議,等於說也是一個充分的討論我們知道其實現在各個學校裡面訂立校規不是就是依據了這個"},{"start":15739.638,"end":15741.339,"text":"請問一下部長您認為教育是這個注意事項法律性質是什麼"},{"start":15759.489,"end":15786.87,"text":"注意事項主要是根據這個有關學生輔導法那就要固定這個是給校做參考所以您的這個注意事項的第一條裡面有講的就是這是要這個依據這個基本上是要去訂定學生輔導管教辦法但是你們一直沒有這個輔導管教辦法但是卻用一個注意事項來取代輔導管教辦法那本席認為說這樣子的一個這樣子的一個法律作為基本上是很不恰當的"},{"start":15788.031,"end":15814.714,"text":"應該是要將整個的輔導管教的注意事項裏面的內容要提升到法律的位階麻煩下一頁所以就這個部分的話是不是你們應該基本上要去檢討有關於學生輔導辦法或者是說未來在國教辦法以及在高等教育辦法裏面自己要去把相關的內容把它明確化"},{"start":15815.663,"end":15820.385,"text":"學務法這個規範是讓學校訂定這個所以教育部才會以注意事項來因為訂的主體是學校所以就是說您的注意事項它基本上學校可以不用注意所以它只是參考而已是不是那注意事項就這樣啊"},{"start":15837.072,"end":15859.141,"text":"所以學校也可以不遵守這個不去看到這個注意事項裡面的內容它也可以依照它自己裡面的這個經過校務會議通過之後擬定校規所以校務會議的校規通過的校規它是可以超越這個注意事項裡面的內容所以學校也可以自己訂定規則在校規裡面說我要去檢查書包"},{"start":15862.022,"end":15862.142,"text":"主席"},{"start":15892.282,"end":15892.662,"text":"無私要委員、政天才委員"},{"start":15933.914,"end":15935.876,"text":"法務部長不好意思"},{"start":15953.134,"end":15979.502,"text":"好部長這個有關今天的一個議題真的是一個非常非常的重要但是這幾年來我們對於這個校園這方面的暴力事件頻傳確實是一個事實我們看這個下一張下一張好我們看這個"},{"start":15981.127,"end":15984.488,"text":"從101年大學到112年從101年的347件到112年的1069件暴力事件以偏差行為高中子101年的2441件到112年的8462件"},{"start":16006.116,"end":16012.299,"text":"國中101年是2653件到112年的8339件國小101年是968112年是9368管教衝突事件一樣兒童少年保護事件都一樣從101年到112年"},{"start":16036.218,"end":16037.12,"text":"指指往上"},{"start":16050.217,"end":16069.435,"text":"我跟委員報告這個通報是教育部強烈的要求地方政府跟學校因為當學校在校園內受到比如霸凌或有其他這些不當對待不要隱忍學校有通報的責任這才會讓委員看到這個在112年比111年會有在這樣的通報數的增加"},{"start":16074.58,"end":16074.86,"text":"通報的結果你剛剛是講通報"},{"start":16102.683,"end":16115.376,"text":"委員這個是通報數據啊對因為有通報所以有了這個結果但是有這樣的結果這麼多年來卻沒有很好的因應的措施啦我們現在談"},{"start":16117.079,"end":16145.668,"text":"怎麼去因應這些 怎麼去減少這些竟然通報是應該的 一定要通報但是怎麼樣去減少 怎麼去解決這些問題這個才是一個重點我們看這個 我們就講這個你的報告裡面的校園安全4策略事前預防 絕對要做"},{"start":16146.618,"end":16174.079,"text":"但是呢這個校園事前預防就是三行、四行大家怎麼做顯然這個沒有達到那個報告當然是折要這裡面我們有詳細的計劃辦法都是到達學校我知道緊急處理外部資源輔導介入我們現在是不是要去究責我們沒有要去究責"},{"start":16175.453,"end":16201.754,"text":"現在就是怎麼去解決這些問題了怎麼去解決這些問題所以這個部分是這個要請教育部要去審慎的要跟學校、老師要好好討論所以這個部分到底這個外部支援已經太慢了太慢了那有沒有可能有更好的方式"},{"start":16203.258,"end":16230.432,"text":"有沒有更好的方式因為老師也很難啊老師也很難啊光靠老師是不夠的也很難到底要怎麼樣去解決外部之言有沒有可能我也很想講但是到底講好不好我不知道譬如說既然已經發生這種事情"},{"start":16232.334,"end":16258.453,"text":"剛委員提到說就檢查就檢查嘛最起碼不要受傷害嘛大部分學生不要因為暴力然後受傷害這個是一個需要好好地檢討的地方另外如果真的是需要有沒有可能增加警力增加啦 要增加警力就派出到學校"},{"start":16260.626,"end":16261.127,"text":"尤其是教官"},{"start":16279.366,"end":16305.371,"text":"教育部是否有因應措施都一邊討論要去檢討要去好好地去處理謝謝委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝部長鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員 鄭振前委員王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員"},{"start":16306.431,"end":16308.072,"text":"今日登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢了．"},{"start":16321.499,"end":16349.83,"text":"另外有吳村城委員、陳冠廷委員、沈博洋委員及羅志強委員提出書面質詢然後今天的會議我們做的決議如下報告及詢答完畢然後委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料請列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或是未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面來做答覆報告委員會我們今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":16353.966,"end":16354.267,"text":"主席"},{"start":16374.783,"end":16379.19,"text":"3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會議"},{"start":16389.185,"end":16389.385,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15731","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6853e43fff42b9abd616adffd4dccc8d5f93be8d109af184be4162aa9aa9bdb57b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:30:35+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:55:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":30265,"委員發言時間":"08:30:35 - 16:55:00","影片長度":"08:24:25","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":864.70596875,"end":865.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1759.3847187500003,"end":1759.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1759.41846875,"end":1759.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1759.97534375,"end":1760.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":1760.0259687500002,"end":1760.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1760.2284687500003,"end":1760.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1763.9747187500002,"end":1764.1434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1767.0965937500002,"end":1767.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1822.1934687500002,"end":1825.1634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":1842.3422187500003,"end":1842.5784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":1842.64596875,"end":1844.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1855.4203437500003,"end":1855.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1855.45409375,"end":1855.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1866.55784375,"end":1866.9122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1870.0678437500003,"end":1871.1815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":1937.1459687500003,"end":1937.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":1937.9728437500003,"end":1938.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":1938.56346875,"end":1942.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":1943.33909375,"end":1943.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1944.5878437500003,"end":1944.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1971.6722187500002,"end":1976.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1978.23659375,"end":1979.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1980.9365937500002,"end":1982.0840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1982.3878437500002,"end":1985.7459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1987.4334687500002,"end":1990.2515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":1991.29784375,"end":1992.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":1992.9684687500003,"end":1993.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1994.0315937500002,"end":1994.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":1995.1622187500002,"end":1995.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2023.4784687500003,"end":2023.6134687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2081.96721875,"end":2092.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2092.4297187500006,"end":2097.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2100.8503437500003,"end":2108.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2111.86971875,"end":2112.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2112.8990937500002,"end":2114.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2117.2022187500006,"end":2119.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2120.17221875,"end":2120.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2120.8640937500004,"end":2121.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2124.4922187500006,"end":2124.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2125.4540937500005,"end":2130.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2130.6178437500002,"end":2131.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2136.9459687500002,"end":2142.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2143.30784375,"end":2144.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2146.39596875,"end":2150.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2151.10409375,"end":2200.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2200.5984687500004,"end":2254.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2255.54346875,"end":2260.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2260.8084687500004,"end":2264.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2265.4997187500003,"end":2271.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2271.0515937500004,"end":2272.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2273.19471875,"end":2274.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2274.4772187500002,"end":2275.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2275.16909375,"end":2276.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2279.8434687500003,"end":2281.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2282.05409375,"end":2282.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2284.45034375,"end":2285.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2285.4628437500005,"end":2287.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2289.9178437500004,"end":2293.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2294.23784375,"end":2303.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2312.71596875,"end":2315.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2315.9559687500005,"end":2315.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2316.3778437500005,"end":2401.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2403.41909375,"end":2424.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":2417.96534375,"end":2418.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2418.03284375,"end":2418.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2418.06659375,"end":2420.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2420.0240937500002,"end":2428.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2424.9684687500003,"end":2425.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2426.45346875,"end":2426.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2427.2634687500004,"end":2427.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2428.20846875,"end":2432.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2428.2422187500006,"end":2428.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2428.37721875,"end":2437.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2437.9284687500003,"end":2449.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2438.08034375,"end":2439.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2439.6328437500006,"end":2439.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2443.2947187500004,"end":2443.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2443.34534375,"end":2443.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2444.4590937500006,"end":2444.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2445.03284375,"end":2451.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2451.76596875,"end":2457.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2457.80721875,"end":2458.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2458.0603437500004,"end":2459.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2459.0897187500004,"end":2459.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2459.10659375,"end":2460.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2459.95034375,"end":2459.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2459.96721875,"end":2459.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2459.9840937500003,"end":2460.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2460.0009687500005,"end":2460.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2460.03471875,"end":2460.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2460.62534375,"end":2466.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2460.64221875,"end":2460.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2460.76034375,"end":2460.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2460.9628437500005,"end":2484.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2466.2615937500004,"end":2466.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2466.5653437500005,"end":2466.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2466.6159687500003,"end":2466.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":2466.97034375,"end":2468.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":2472.2184687500003,"end":2472.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":2472.7078437500004,"end":2475.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2475.03659375,"end":2475.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2475.9647187500004,"end":2477.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2477.02784375,"end":2500.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2492.5359687500004,"end":2499.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2499.9609687500006,"end":2500.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2501.0409687500005,"end":2503.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2503.9772187500002,"end":2522.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2523.4678437500006,"end":2525.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2527.95659375,"end":2530.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2532.6815937500005,"end":2537.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2538.50346875,"end":2548.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2541.03471875,"end":2541.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2542.95846875,"end":2543.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2550.11346875,"end":2561.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2558.19659375,"end":2558.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":2558.33159375,"end":2558.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2558.75346875,"end":2558.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2563.4615937500002,"end":2573.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2579.61096875,"end":2580.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2581.21409375,"end":2583.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2587.67721875,"end":2589.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2589.55034375,"end":2602.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2602.25721875,"end":2604.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2604.65346875,"end":2606.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2606.23971875,"end":2608.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2609.47971875,"end":2634.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2635.09596875,"end":2642.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2643.7528437500005,"end":2658.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2658.72096875,"end":2669.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2670.0947187500005,"end":2672.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2672.8115937500006,"end":2674.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2674.93784375,"end":2680.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2681.2490937500006,"end":2682.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2682.78471875,"end":2684.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2685.1472187500003,"end":2685.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2685.9909687500003,"end":2695.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2695.91346875,"end":2700.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2702.05596875,"end":2705.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2713.14284375,"end":2726.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2726.9128437500003,"end":2731.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2731.82346875,"end":2754.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2754.6384687500004,"end":2758.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2759.4647187500004,"end":2766.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2766.9909687500003,"end":2767.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2767.9528437500003,"end":2772.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2772.9647187500004,"end":2775.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2776.20471875,"end":2784.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2789.2322187500004,"end":2794.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2795.47596875,"end":2800.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2801.75346875,"end":2826.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2828.7703437500004,"end":2829.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2833.20846875,"end":2833.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2833.27596875,"end":2833.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2833.4109687500004,"end":2833.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2834.54159375,"end":2835.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2836.22909375,"end":2837.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2838.7940937500007,"end":2840.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2842.06784375,"end":2852.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2855.1122187500005,"end":2855.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2856.52971875,"end":2858.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2861.2547187500004,"end":2862.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2865.55784375,"end":2872.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2872.5440937500007,"end":2872.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2873.70846875,"end":2875.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2876.84721875,"end":2878.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2879.9353437500004,"end":2882.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2882.7197187500005,"end":2883.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2883.9684687500003,"end":2888.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2890.4990937500006,"end":2895.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2896.97909375,"end":2897.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2898.22784375,"end":2905.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2906.00721875,"end":2907.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2908.0153437500003,"end":2908.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2909.2978437500005,"end":2909.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2910.76596875,"end":2912.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2913.7528437500005,"end":2916.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2916.5709687500002,"end":2917.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2917.9209687500006,"end":2919.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2919.86159375,"end":2921.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2921.97096875,"end":2923.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2924.40096875,"end":2925.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2926.7803437500006,"end":2927.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2928.41721875,"end":2929.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2929.69971875,"end":2931.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2932.09596875,"end":2935.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2935.6903437500005,"end":2941.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2941.7147187500004,"end":2943.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2944.2459687500004,"end":2945.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2945.83221875,"end":2947.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2948.7684687500005,"end":2952.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2952.53159375,"end":2963.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2963.93909375,"end":2973.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2973.87846875,"end":2974.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2974.9753437500003,"end":2977.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2978.5359687500004,"end":2979.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2980.18971875,"end":2981.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2981.9615937500002,"end":2984.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2984.2734687500006,"end":2984.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2991.3103437500004,"end":2994.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":2995.02284375,"end":2996.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2997.67221875,"end":2997.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2997.72284375,"end":2997.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2997.7565937500003,"end":2998.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3001.2665937500005,"end":3002.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3002.5153437500003,"end":3002.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3002.98784375,"end":3003.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3003.0215937500006,"end":3003.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3015.7959687500006,"end":3017.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3017.8209687500002,"end":3026.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3019.0359687500004,"end":3019.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3025.3640937500004,"end":3026.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3026.5284687500007,"end":3029.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3029.2790937500004,"end":3029.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3029.36346875,"end":3033.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3032.2490937500006,"end":3033.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3033.4978437500004,"end":3033.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3033.53159375,"end":3033.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3033.5653437500005,"end":3033.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3033.58221875,"end":3033.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3033.8522187500002,"end":3033.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3033.9365937500006,"end":3034.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3034.0547187500006,"end":3034.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3034.07159375,"end":3034.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3034.08846875,"end":3034.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3034.1559687500003,"end":3044.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3045.3103437500004,"end":3047.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3047.89221875,"end":3047.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3047.9090937500005,"end":3048.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3048.3984687500006,"end":3050.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3051.6384687500004,"end":3056.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3055.0303437500006,"end":3058.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3057.4940937500005,"end":3063.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3060.24471875,"end":3060.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3060.2784687500007,"end":3060.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3060.4978437500004,"end":3060.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3060.97034375,"end":3061.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3062.0840937500006,"end":3063.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3063.06284375,"end":3064.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3064.04159375,"end":3067.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3064.0753437500007,"end":3067.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3067.28159375,"end":3067.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3067.4840937500003,"end":3069.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3068.12534375,"end":3068.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3069.01971875,"end":3070.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3070.06596875,"end":3073.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3070.0828437500004,"end":3071.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3071.33159375,"end":3071.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3071.9053437500006,"end":3074.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3073.8965937500006,"end":3074.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3074.50409375,"end":3074.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3074.80784375,"end":3074.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3075.95534375,"end":3076.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3077.0690937500003,"end":3077.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3077.10284375,"end":3079.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3077.9803437500004,"end":3078.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3079.33034375,"end":3092.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3081.4903437500006,"end":3082.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3082.7390937500004,"end":3083.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3093.85971875,"end":3096.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3097.2009687500004,"end":3099.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3099.71534375,"end":3102.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3105.26721875,"end":3105.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3106.2965937500003,"end":3110.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3106.56659375,"end":3106.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3106.65096875,"end":3106.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3107.0390937500006,"end":3107.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3112.4559687500005,"end":3115.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3115.0378437500003,"end":3117.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3118.5984687500004,"end":3123.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":3121.2478437500004,"end":3130.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3127.44096875,"end":3129.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3129.8878437500007,"end":3130.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3130.0059687500006,"end":3130.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":3130.4278437500006,"end":3130.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":3130.57971875,"end":3131.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3131.2547187500004,"end":3134.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3134.0390937500006,"end":3134.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3134.47784375,"end":3135.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3135.03471875,"end":3136.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3135.38909375,"end":3136.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3136.8572187500004,"end":3140.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3140.09721875,"end":3141.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3141.12659375,"end":3141.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3141.3797187500004,"end":3141.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3141.3965937500006,"end":3141.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3141.58221875,"end":3141.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3141.64971875,"end":3141.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3141.66659375,"end":3158.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3141.76784375,"end":3143.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3143.9784687500005,"end":3144.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3145.9697187500005,"end":3146.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3148.58534375,"end":3149.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3149.00721875,"end":3149.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3149.0240937500002,"end":3149.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3149.98596875,"end":3151.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3153.58034375,"end":3154.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3154.72784375,"end":3154.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3154.7615937500004,"end":3155.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3155.03159375,"end":3158.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3158.05221875,"end":3158.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3159.1153437500006,"end":3162.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3160.21221875,"end":3160.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3160.34721875,"end":3160.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3163.30034375,"end":3172.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3172.9697187500005,"end":3179.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3182.47034375,"end":3182.5040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3182.52096875,"end":3182.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3195.1940937500003,"end":3196.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3196.86471875,"end":3209.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3212.3053437500002,"end":3214.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3214.6172187500006,"end":3223.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3223.5272187500004,"end":3223.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3225.0459687500006,"end":3225.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3225.50159375,"end":3233.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3234.4959687500004,"end":3235.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3235.1540937500004,"end":3239.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3239.40659375,"end":3242.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3242.37659375,"end":3250.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3242.5622187500003,"end":3242.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3250.30784375,"end":3251.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3251.1178437500002,"end":3253.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3253.4128437500003,"end":3253.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3253.9190937500007,"end":3254.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3254.23971875,"end":3255.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3255.85971875,"end":3255.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3255.99471875,"end":3256.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3257.0409687500005,"end":3260.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3260.9728437500007,"end":3265.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3265.1072187500004,"end":3270.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3270.62534375,"end":3272.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3271.9922187500006,"end":3276.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3275.2997187500005,"end":3276.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3276.54846875,"end":3286.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3286.6397187500006,"end":3290.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3290.7234687500004,"end":3290.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3290.7403437500006,"end":3290.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3290.82471875,"end":3292.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3292.9509687500004,"end":3302.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3293.3897187500006,"end":3293.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3294.68909375,"end":3294.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3294.7228437500007,"end":3296.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3297.6759687500007,"end":3297.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3297.69284375,"end":3300.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3302.3672187500006,"end":3307.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3302.4853437500005,"end":3302.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3308.00346875,"end":3308.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3308.0372187500006,"end":3308.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3308.2059687500005,"end":3308.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3308.3915937500005,"end":3308.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3308.5603437500004,"end":3308.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3308.6278437500005,"end":3308.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3308.83034375,"end":3311.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3311.0240937500002,"end":3320.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":3317.7909687500005,"end":3318.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3318.0272187500004,"end":3319.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3319.9678437500006,"end":3320.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3320.0353437500007,"end":3323.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3320.6090937500003,"end":3320.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3320.8790937500007,"end":3321.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3321.97596875,"end":3322.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3322.6678437500004,"end":3322.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3322.9715937500005,"end":3323.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3323.0390937500006,"end":3323.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3323.30909375,"end":3323.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3323.8153437500005,"end":3324.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3323.9840937500003,"end":3325.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3325.0303437500006,"end":3325.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3325.16534375,"end":3325.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3325.6378437500007,"end":3345.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3325.77284375,"end":3325.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3325.9415937500007,"end":3327.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3327.59534375,"end":3327.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3327.64596875,"end":3327.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3328.30409375,"end":3328.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3334.9697187500005,"end":3335.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3336.9103437500007,"end":3337.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3337.3153437500005,"end":3337.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3345.0272187500004,"end":3353.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3345.3309687500005,"end":3345.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3353.9372187500003,"end":3374.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3362.84721875,"end":3364.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3372.8709687500004,"end":3375.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3374.64284375,"end":3379.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3379.9753437500003,"end":3400.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3400.57971875,"end":3403.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3400.8328437500004,"end":3401.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3402.0309687500003,"end":3405.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3404.1065937500007,"end":3406.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3406.5028437500005,"end":3413.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3409.79346875,"end":3411.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3413.9278437500006,"end":3416.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3417.13409375,"end":3422.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3421.06596875,"end":3434.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3428.52471875,"end":3428.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3428.84534375,"end":3429.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3429.50346875,"end":3429.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3434.75159375,"end":3436.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3436.67534375,"end":3437.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3436.84409375,"end":3436.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":3436.86096875,"end":3450.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3443.40846875,"end":3443.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3448.23471875,"end":3448.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3450.6309687500006,"end":3452.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":3451.2890937500006,"end":3453.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3452.89221875,"end":3454.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3454.9509687500004,"end":3459.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3459.2540937500007,"end":3460.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3460.18221875,"end":3465.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3465.8690937500005,"end":3471.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3471.55596875,"end":3475.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3472.3153437500005,"end":3477.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3477.52971875,"end":3479.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3478.4747187500006,"end":3493.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3483.8240937500004,"end":3489.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3493.8984687500006,"end":3502.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3494.87721875,"end":3499.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3499.2647187500006,"end":3505.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3507.5165937500005,"end":3509.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3508.79909375,"end":3509.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3509.8115937500006,"end":3524.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3521.4890937500004,"end":3524.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3525.43784375,"end":3531.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3531.29346875,"end":3531.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3532.5928437500006,"end":3553.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3553.5684687500006,"end":3553.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3553.9734687500004,"end":3554.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3554.2265937500006,"end":3586.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3556.30221875,"end":3556.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3559.8290937500005,"end":3560.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3560.9597187500003,"end":3560.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3561.0778437500003,"end":3561.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3562.68096875,"end":3562.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3562.8328437500004,"end":3563.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3567.92909375,"end":3568.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3586.49159375,"end":3589.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3589.56284375,"end":3599.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3592.02659375,"end":3592.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3600.54846875,"end":3603.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3603.6365937500004,"end":3607.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3607.6865937500006,"end":3609.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3611.2472187500007,"end":3611.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3611.80409375,"end":3612.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3612.47909375,"end":3612.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3612.71534375,"end":3612.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3612.76596875,"end":3665.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3661.39971875,"end":3662.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3665.73659375,"end":3676.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3676.7897187500002,"end":3680.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3681.12659375,"end":3698.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3699.2165937500004,"end":3712.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3712.32846875,"end":3715.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3715.16346875,"end":3741.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3726.7228437500007,"end":3727.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3727.02659375,"end":3727.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3741.3365937500002,"end":3764.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3764.3034687500003,"end":3772.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3772.2853437500007,"end":3800.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3800.61846875,"end":3804.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3804.73596875,"end":3810.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3810.9628437500005,"end":3812.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3813.2072187500007,"end":3816.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3816.0084687500002,"end":3816.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3816.17721875,"end":3816.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3817.1559687500003,"end":3818.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3817.61159375,"end":3818.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3819.1134687500007,"end":3822.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3823.04534375,"end":3823.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3823.4503437500007,"end":3841.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3842.38409375,"end":3854.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3845.3203437500006,"end":3846.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3854.9728437500007,"end":3860.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3860.0859687500006,"end":3868.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3870.0253437500005,"end":3872.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3872.23596875,"end":3894.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3883.2722187500003,"end":3883.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3883.2890937500006,"end":3883.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3883.49159375,"end":3884.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3884.16659375,"end":3885.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3892.3847187500005,"end":3892.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3894.9665937500004,"end":3896.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3897.5822187500007,"end":3899.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":3898.5272187500004,"end":3898.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3900.61971875,"end":3907.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3904.39971875,"end":3929.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3909.29346875,"end":3911.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3913.20846875,"end":3914.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3915.26721875,"end":3916.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3917.3259687500004,"end":3917.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3917.8828437500006,"end":3918.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3918.03471875,"end":3918.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3918.0684687500006,"end":3918.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3918.5578437500008,"end":3921.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3921.03846875,"end":3926.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3926.03346875,"end":3929.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3930.0665937500007,"end":3932.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3933.69471875,"end":3937.9640937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3937.9640937500008,"end":3940.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3941.11971875,"end":3944.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3945.03471875,"end":3946.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3946.8572187500004,"end":3948.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3948.29159375,"end":3948.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3948.7303437500004,"end":3949.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3949.0340937500005,"end":3951.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3952.08846875,"end":3961.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3961.96034375,"end":3979.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3981.0459687500006,"end":3984.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3985.88909375,"end":3986.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3986.96909375,"end":3989.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3990.5465937500003,"end":3993.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3994.3603437500005,"end":3995.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3996.06471875,"end":3996.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3996.2840937500005,"end":3996.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3996.8240937500004,"end":4001.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4001.32971875,"end":4001.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4001.6334687500002,"end":4001.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4001.68409375,"end":4001.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4001.7853437500007,"end":4023.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4023.55409375,"end":4030.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4030.79346875,"end":4031.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4033.08846875,"end":4033.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4033.9659687500007,"end":4034.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4034.28659375,"end":4034.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4034.9784687500005,"end":4035.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4035.5690937500003,"end":4036.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4037.3409687500007,"end":4041.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4044.04034375,"end":4045.1203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4045.13721875,"end":4046.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4046.6222187500007,"end":4046.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4047.24659375,"end":4047.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4047.9215937500003,"end":4047.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4048.2422187500006,"end":4052.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4052.5622187500003,"end":4065.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4067.00721875,"end":4069.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4070.0109687500008,"end":4081.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4081.5534687500003,"end":4087.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4087.8815937500003,"end":4089.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4089.9403437500005,"end":4098.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4098.02346875,"end":4104.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4101.11159375,"end":4102.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4103.4403437500005,"end":4103.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4103.575343750001,"end":4103.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4103.59221875,"end":4103.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4103.609093749999,"end":4103.659718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4103.659718749999,"end":4103.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4103.67659375,"end":4104.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4104.11534375,"end":4104.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4110.57846875,"end":4110.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4110.6122187500005,"end":4111.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4111.47284375,"end":4111.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4114.56096875,"end":4123.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4119.134093750001,"end":4119.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4119.218468749999,"end":4119.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4123.94346875,"end":4124.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4124.044718749999,"end":4126.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4124.41596875,"end":4140.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4133.03909375,"end":4133.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4133.1572187500005,"end":4133.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4137.747218750001,"end":4138.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4140.02534375,"end":4145.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4146.28596875,"end":4151.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4151.50034375,"end":4152.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4155.364718750001,"end":4155.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4155.82034375,"end":4155.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4155.837218750001,"end":4155.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4159.161593750001,"end":4159.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4161.10221875,"end":4170.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4171.80096875,"end":4174.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4175.2772187499995,"end":4175.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4175.31096875,"end":4177.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4175.513468749999,"end":4178.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4179.90096875,"end":4188.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4183.022843750001,"end":4183.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4184.0184687500005,"end":4184.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4184.03534375,"end":4185.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4188.30471875,"end":4188.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4188.43971875,"end":4220.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4191.24096875,"end":4191.409718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4199.07096875,"end":4199.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4215.186593750001,"end":4215.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4215.49034375,"end":4215.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4217.86971875,"end":4220.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4220.97471875,"end":4225.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4225.04159375,"end":4225.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4225.075343750001,"end":4225.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4225.446593750001,"end":4225.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4225.9697187500005,"end":4226.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4226.49284375,"end":4226.847218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4226.847218749999,"end":4226.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4226.96534375,"end":4230.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4227.48846875,"end":4227.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4227.977843750001,"end":4232.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4230.25596875,"end":4231.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4231.36971875,"end":4231.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4233.81659375,"end":4234.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4234.52534375,"end":4235.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4235.53784375,"end":4240.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4242.72659375,"end":4246.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4246.962218750001,"end":4248.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4248.21096875,"end":4248.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4248.44721875,"end":4248.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4248.53159375,"end":4249.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4248.649718750001,"end":4250.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4250.151593750001,"end":4254.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4251.7040937500005,"end":4251.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4251.85596875,"end":4253.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4253.155343750001,"end":4253.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4254.57284375,"end":4254.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4254.77534375,"end":4259.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4260.175343749999,"end":4264.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4262.63909375,"end":4262.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4265.11971875,"end":4265.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4266.19971875,"end":4266.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4266.216593749999,"end":4272.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4266.419093750001,"end":4267.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4270.300343749999,"end":4271.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4272.76409375,"end":4272.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4272.84846875,"end":4282.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4272.86534375,"end":4273.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4275.34596875,"end":4276.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4276.03784375,"end":4276.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4276.05471875,"end":4276.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4276.1728437500005,"end":4276.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4276.257218750001,"end":4276.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4276.32471875,"end":4276.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4276.341593749999,"end":4276.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4276.66221875,"end":4276.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4276.679093750001,"end":4276.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4282.75409375,"end":4284.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":4284.72846875,"end":4285.065968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4285.74096875,"end":4293.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4289.520968750001,"end":4298.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4293.57096875,"end":4293.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4299.595343749999,"end":4301.097218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4301.805968750001,"end":4303.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4303.29096875,"end":4303.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4303.45971875,"end":4304.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4304.185343749999,"end":4305.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4305.75471875,"end":4308.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4308.370343750001,"end":4310.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4310.02409375,"end":4311.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4311.036593750001,"end":4311.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4311.28971875,"end":4311.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4311.323468750001,"end":4311.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4311.39096875,"end":4311.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4312.015343749999,"end":4313.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4312.0322187500005,"end":4327.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4313.618468750001,"end":4313.753468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4313.753468749999,"end":4314.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4314.00659375,"end":4314.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4314.360968749999,"end":4314.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4314.411593750001,"end":4314.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4314.462218750001,"end":4314.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4314.47909375,"end":4314.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4314.512843750001,"end":4315.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4315.2215937500005,"end":4315.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4315.27221875,"end":4315.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4315.32284375,"end":4315.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4315.3397187499995,"end":4315.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4315.356593750001,"end":4315.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4315.390343749999,"end":4315.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4315.47471875,"end":4315.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4315.491593750001,"end":4315.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4315.52534375,"end":4315.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4316.97659375,"end":4317.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4317.263468749999,"end":4317.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4317.53346875,"end":4317.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4317.972218749999,"end":4318.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4324.536593750001,"end":4326.409718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4328.4178437499995,"end":4328.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4328.434718750001,"end":4328.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4328.9072187500005,"end":4328.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4330.814093749999,"end":4331.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4331.87721875,"end":4332.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4333.04159375,"end":4339.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4339.167218750001,"end":4339.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4339.2684687500005,"end":4347.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4348.27971875,"end":4348.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4349.49471875,"end":4351.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4351.97534375,"end":4352.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4353.966593749999,"end":4355.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4360.9697187500005,"end":4363.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4363.028468750001,"end":4363.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4363.7372187500005,"end":4365.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4365.01971875,"end":4381.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4366.4540937500005,"end":4371.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4371.29721875,"end":4371.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4371.465968750001,"end":4371.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4371.887843750001,"end":4371.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4371.972218749999,"end":4375.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4376.59596875,"end":4376.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4377.01784375,"end":4377.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4381.79346875,"end":4381.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4384.03784375,"end":4387.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4390.5009687500005,"end":4392.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4393.13346875,"end":4394.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4397.16659375,"end":4397.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4400.40659375,"end":4406.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4407.39284375,"end":4408.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4408.354718750001,"end":4411.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4423.55909375,"end":4423.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4426.545968750001,"end":4427.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4428.0478437500005,"end":4428.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4430.12346875,"end":4431.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4432.51971875,"end":4451.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4451.706593749999,"end":4454.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4455.452843749999,"end":4457.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4458.25409375,"end":4460.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4460.751593749999,"end":4461.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4461.91596875,"end":4462.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4463.384093750001,"end":4465.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4465.864718750001,"end":4466.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4467.079718749999,"end":4467.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4467.77159375,"end":4469.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4470.15096875,"end":4471.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4472.479718750001,"end":4473.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4474.2684687500005,"end":4476.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4476.512843750001,"end":4480.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4481.32221875,"end":4483.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4483.83659375,"end":4506.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4507.42784375,"end":4507.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4508.49096875,"end":4509.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4509.925343749999,"end":4510.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4511.8153437500005,"end":4513.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4514.009093750001,"end":4514.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4523.239718750001,"end":4525.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4525.770968750001,"end":4526.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4526.715968750001,"end":4526.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4526.800343749999,"end":4526.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4527.47534375,"end":4527.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4527.509093750001,"end":4529.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4530.934718750001,"end":4531.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4532.35221875,"end":4533.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4533.90471875,"end":4535.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4536.0478437500005,"end":4537.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4538.86596875,"end":4540.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4542.05534375,"end":4543.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4544.046593749999,"end":4546.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4547.624093750001,"end":4549.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4550.155343750001,"end":4551.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4551.741593750001,"end":4553.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4554.07034375,"end":4555.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4555.825343750001,"end":4557.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4558.52534375,"end":4559.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4560.58409375,"end":4562.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4562.96346875,"end":4564.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4565.106593750001,"end":4567.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4568.73471875,"end":4569.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4570.405343750001,"end":4571.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4571.333468750001,"end":4572.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4573.257218750001,"end":4576.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4577.64471875,"end":4578.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4579.163468750001,"end":4580.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4580.564093749999,"end":4581.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4581.779093749999,"end":4582.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4583.17971875,"end":4585.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4585.69409375,"end":4586.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4587.044093750001,"end":4587.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4588.731593750001,"end":4589.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4589.946593750001,"end":4590.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4590.62159375,"end":4591.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4592.005343750001,"end":4592.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4593.220343749999,"end":4595.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4595.717843750001,"end":4597.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4597.8778437500005,"end":4600.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4601.16846875,"end":4605.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4606.112843749999,"end":4606.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4607.26034375,"end":4609.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4609.79159375,"end":4611.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4611.9178437499995,"end":4613.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4614.263468749999,"end":4615.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4616.92971875,"end":4617.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4618.904093749999,"end":4620.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4620.96284375,"end":4621.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4621.300343749999,"end":4623.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4624.50659375,"end":4625.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4625.519093749999,"end":4626.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4627.05471875,"end":4627.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4627.89846875,"end":4628.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4631.340968750001,"end":4647.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4654.915343750001,"end":4660.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4661.20971875,"end":4726.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4729.6884687500005,"end":4733.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4734.76784375,"end":4735.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4736.87721875,"end":4737.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4740.67409375,"end":4740.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4740.690968750001,"end":4743.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4743.05346875,"end":4743.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4743.087218750001,"end":4743.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4743.10409375,"end":4743.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4743.1884687500005,"end":4743.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4743.47534375,"end":4743.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4743.91409375,"end":4745.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4747.964093750001,"end":4748.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4752.452843749999,"end":4766.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4760.333468750001,"end":4760.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4768.264718750001,"end":4771.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4772.483468750001,"end":4775.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4775.03159375,"end":4775.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4775.92596875,"end":4775.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4775.942843750001,"end":4775.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4775.95971875,"end":4776.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4776.0272187499995,"end":4776.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4776.651593750001,"end":4777.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4784.667218750001,"end":4784.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4784.68409375,"end":4785.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":4785.24096875,"end":4785.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4787.36721875,"end":4793.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4795.062218749999,"end":4796.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4797.81284375,"end":4798.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4798.65659375,"end":4800.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4802.53784375,"end":4803.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4805.91284375,"end":4807.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4808.325968749999,"end":4809.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4811.194718750001,"end":4812.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4813.70909375,"end":4815.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4816.206593750001,"end":4817.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4818.687218749999,"end":4820.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4821.184718750001,"end":4822.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4823.985968749999,"end":4825.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4826.432843750001,"end":4827.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4829.11596875,"end":4830.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4832.59221875,"end":4832.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4833.35159375,"end":4834.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4843.32471875,"end":4844.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4844.82659375,"end":4854.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4859.49096875,"end":4860.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4872.38346875,"end":4873.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4873.56471875,"end":4875.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4875.57284375,"end":4884.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4885.93409375,"end":4896.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4897.93221875,"end":4920.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4921.74284375,"end":4927.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4927.733468750001,"end":4932.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4932.30659375,"end":4937.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4937.9090937500005,"end":4941.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4941.75659375,"end":4946.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4946.68409375,"end":4951.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4952.26971875,"end":4967.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4968.267218749999,"end":4982.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4983.218468749999,"end":4991.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4991.82471875,"end":5005.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5005.392218749999,"end":5010.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5011.399718750001,"end":5014.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5015.36534375,"end":5054.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5055.25784375,"end":5065.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5066.07471875,"end":5085.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5086.341593749999,"end":5089.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5089.919093750001,"end":5096.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5101.46159375,"end":5101.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5102.001593749999,"end":5102.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5103.7059687500005,"end":5104.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5104.22909375,"end":5123.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5124.24284375,"end":5132.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5133.405968749999,"end":5133.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5134.46909375,"end":5142.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5142.788468750001,"end":5145.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5146.12971875,"end":5147.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5148.222218750001,"end":5151.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5152.52534375,"end":5161.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5162.751593749999,"end":5163.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5163.510968750001,"end":5167.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5167.763468749999,"end":5168.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5169.0965937500005,"end":5170.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5171.49284375,"end":5191.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5191.9959687499995,"end":5212.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5213.17409375,"end":5217.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5218.08471875,"end":5234.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5235.179093750001,"end":5238.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5238.94221875,"end":5249.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5250.079718749999,"end":5268.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5268.94596875,"end":5279.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5279.610968749999,"end":5280.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5280.91034375,"end":5281.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5282.429093750001,"end":5291.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5292.25034375,"end":5296.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5296.60409375,"end":5347.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5348.612843750001,"end":5353.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5353.94534375,"end":5369.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5369.72346875,"end":5379.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5380.05096875,"end":5403.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5404.51971875,"end":5417.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5418.137843750001,"end":5444.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5444.83409375,"end":5457.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5458.722218750001,"end":5465.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5465.40471875,"end":5469.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5470.163468750001,"end":5503.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5504.234093749999,"end":5511.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5512.215968750001,"end":5524.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5524.686593750001,"end":5527.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5528.432843750001,"end":5532.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5533.09034375,"end":5538.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5538.94596875,"end":5558.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5559.786593750001,"end":5570.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5570.63721875,"end":5579.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5579.26034375,"end":5581.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5582.63534375,"end":5618.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5619.405968749999,"end":5632.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5633.294093750001,"end":5637.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5639.149718750001,"end":5648.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5653.155968749999,"end":5655.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5656.88534375,"end":5658.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5659.12971875,"end":5668.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5669.6259687500005,"end":5700.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5691.698468750001,"end":5692.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5702.009093750001,"end":5704.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5706.02534375,"end":5709.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5710.294718749999,"end":5743.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5744.247218750001,"end":5758.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5758.962218750001,"end":5793.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5793.80909375,"end":5804.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5805.33471875,"end":5809.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5809.70534375,"end":5826.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5826.90096875,"end":5844.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5844.53534375,"end":5865.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5866.08471875,"end":5879.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5879.78721875,"end":6010.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5889.692843750001,"end":5890.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6015.68159375,"end":6018.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6018.499718749999,"end":6021.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6021.80721875,"end":6022.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6023.714093750001,"end":6024.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6029.0634687500005,"end":6031.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6029.097218750001,"end":6029.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6029.18159375,"end":6029.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6031.763468749999,"end":6033.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6034.159718750001,"end":6034.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6034.868468750001,"end":6038.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6038.6990937499995,"end":6062.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6062.64471875,"end":6065.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6065.057843750001,"end":6065.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6066.8465937500005,"end":6067.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6068.26409375,"end":6072.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6072.71909375,"end":6076.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6076.1278437500005,"end":6078.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6078.89534375,"end":6079.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6080.92034375,"end":6082.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6082.9959687499995,"end":6086.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6087.450968749999,"end":6090.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6090.5897187499995,"end":6091.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6091.61909375,"end":6092.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6092.850968750001,"end":6095.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6097.93034375,"end":6099.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6099.63471875,"end":6103.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6103.41471875,"end":6104.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6104.88284375,"end":6105.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6106.114718750001,"end":6108.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6108.173468750001,"end":6109.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6110.21534375,"end":6125.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6126.29721875,"end":6127.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6127.64721875,"end":6127.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6128.389718750001,"end":6131.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6131.562218749999,"end":6137.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6137.333468750001,"end":6142.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6142.85159375,"end":6147.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6148.23471875,"end":6149.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6150.4959687499995,"end":6151.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6152.16659375,"end":6154.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6154.967843750001,"end":6157.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6157.904093749999,"end":6173.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6174.036593750001,"end":6175.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6175.673468750001,"end":6184.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6184.88721875,"end":6185.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6185.20784375,"end":6187.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6187.9247187500005,"end":6188.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6188.63346875,"end":6191.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6191.55284375,"end":6215.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":6208.90034375,"end":6209.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6214.907843750001,"end":6247.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6247.5272187499995,"end":6256.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6256.0322187500005,"end":6256.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6256.13346875,"end":6258.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6257.63534375,"end":6259.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6259.170968750001,"end":6259.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6259.964093750001,"end":6263.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6263.9803437499995,"end":6268.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6268.60409375,"end":6269.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6270.089093750001,"end":6292.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6292.93784375,"end":6294.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6294.827843749999,"end":6299.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6299.77221875,"end":6321.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6321.81096875,"end":6329.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6328.020968750001,"end":6328.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6328.89846875,"end":6329.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6329.35409375,"end":6329.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6329.522843750001,"end":6335.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6335.142218750001,"end":6335.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6335.86784375,"end":6338.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6338.466593749999,"end":6361.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6362.86784375,"end":6363.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6364.04909375,"end":6366.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6366.360968750001,"end":6367.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6368.0653437500005,"end":6368.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6370.51221875,"end":6371.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6371.92971875,"end":6373.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6373.38096875,"end":6385.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6385.61534375,"end":6391.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6391.589093750001,"end":6393.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6393.9853437500005,"end":6396.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6396.887843750001,"end":6406.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6406.9959687499995,"end":6422.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6421.87971875,"end":6423.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6424.05659375,"end":6445.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6426.95909375,"end":6427.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6444.795968750001,"end":6448.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6448.4072187500005,"end":6460.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6459.780968749999,"end":6461.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6460.89471875,"end":6461.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6461.468468749999,"end":6462.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6462.61596875,"end":6462.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6463.1728437500005,"end":6464.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6464.607218749999,"end":6482.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6480.75659375,"end":6481.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6481.75221875,"end":6482.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6482.96721875,"end":6483.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6483.270968750001,"end":6484.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6485.565968750001,"end":6512.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6512.3465937500005,"end":6514.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6514.42221875,"end":6547.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6549.48846875,"end":6556.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6557.099093750001,"end":6572.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6572.657843750001,"end":6584.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6584.45346875,"end":6586.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6584.50409375,"end":6584.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6584.55471875,"end":6585.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6586.917218750001,"end":6604.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6606.0028437500005,"end":6610.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6611.11596875,"end":6611.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6611.942843750001,"end":6613.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6613.83284375,"end":6650.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6651.227843750001,"end":6654.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6654.5184687500005,"end":6656.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6656.239718750001,"end":6660.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":6660.72846875,"end":6661.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6660.9647187499995,"end":6670.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6670.33034375,"end":6674.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6675.3084687499995,"end":6689.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6688.167218750001,"end":6692.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6691.23846875,"end":6691.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6692.03159375,"end":6692.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6692.97659375,"end":6693.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6693.0272187499995,"end":6693.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6693.16221875,"end":6693.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6693.29721875,"end":6695.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6695.524718750001,"end":6705.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6705.3290937500005,"end":6711.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6712.14659375,"end":6715.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6716.010968750001,"end":6722.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6722.659718750001,"end":6739.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6741.10409375,"end":6751.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6745.87971875,"end":6747.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6750.52034375,"end":6759.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6759.6834687499995,"end":6770.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6770.60159375,"end":6794.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6795.23909375,"end":6801.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6802.259093750001,"end":6803.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6804.7059687500005,"end":6815.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6808.70534375,"end":6809.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6815.16846875,"end":6824.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6821.83409375,"end":6822.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6825.327218750001,"end":6831.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6831.452843749999,"end":6839.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6839.4853437500005,"end":6840.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6841.8309687500005,"end":6846.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6847.60221875,"end":6857.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6858.14909375,"end":6862.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6863.295968750001,"end":6865.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6863.54909375,"end":6866.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6867.58221875,"end":6868.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6869.843468749999,"end":6870.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6870.16409375,"end":6895.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6872.50971875,"end":6872.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":6881.55471875,"end":6881.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6895.763468749999,"end":6902.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6902.22659375,"end":6907.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6907.6434687500005,"end":6911.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6909.685343749999,"end":6910.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6910.84971875,"end":6911.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6911.22096875,"end":6911.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6911.524718750001,"end":6919.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6912.80721875,"end":6913.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6920.2997187500005,"end":6929.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6928.97346875,"end":6933.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6929.935343749999,"end":6930.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6931.622843749999,"end":6933.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6933.58034375,"end":6941.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6933.647843750001,"end":6934.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6941.59596875,"end":6958.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6957.10409375,"end":6957.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6958.97721875,"end":6962.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6962.16659375,"end":6962.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6962.45346875,"end":6966.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6966.43596875,"end":6971.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6972.122843749999,"end":6973.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6974.82284375,"end":6975.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6975.86909375,"end":6979.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6979.9022187499995,"end":6981.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6982.450343750001,"end":6983.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6984.25596875,"end":6992.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6992.6259687500005,"end":7016.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7017.921593750001,"end":7022.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7022.8153437500005,"end":7031.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7032.90659375,"end":7044.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7044.53346875,"end":7047.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7047.267218750001,"end":7049.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7047.4697187500005,"end":7048.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7049.376593750001,"end":7056.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7056.71721875,"end":7057.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7058.6747187500005,"end":7060.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7060.9022187499995,"end":7062.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7062.35346875,"end":7066.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7066.538468750001,"end":7070.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7071.077843750001,"end":7072.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7071.5165937500005,"end":7071.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7071.972218750001,"end":7071.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7071.98909375,"end":7072.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7072.073468750001,"end":7072.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7072.157843750001,"end":7072.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7073.102843750001,"end":7073.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7073.11971875,"end":7085.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7095.698468750001,"end":7096.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7097.4872187500005,"end":7098.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7102.347218750001,"end":7102.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7106.26221875,"end":7106.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7107.66284375,"end":7108.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7108.97909375,"end":7110.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7110.7509687500005,"end":7112.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7113.77159375,"end":7114.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7114.7840937500005,"end":7116.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7116.8934687500005,"end":7120.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7120.859093750001,"end":7121.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7122.34409375,"end":7124.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7125.229718750001,"end":7128.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7129.04346875,"end":7133.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7133.144093750001,"end":7135.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7135.70909375,"end":7135.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7136.282843750001,"end":7138.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7138.307843750001,"end":7143.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7143.741593750001,"end":7144.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7144.450343750001,"end":7147.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7148.247218750001,"end":7149.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7149.58034375,"end":7151.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7152.38159375,"end":7153.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7154.710343750001,"end":7158.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7159.114718750001,"end":7159.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7159.94159375,"end":7166.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7167.2822187500005,"end":7167.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7167.315968750001,"end":7167.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7167.33284375,"end":7170.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7167.34971875,"end":7167.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7169.340968750001,"end":7173.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7173.44159375,"end":7177.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7177.89659375,"end":7178.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7178.03159375,"end":7184.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7181.49096875,"end":7186.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7186.9247187500005,"end":7199.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7192.5272187499995,"end":7192.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":7192.577843750001,"end":7193.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":7193.624093750001,"end":7194.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7194.079718750001,"end":7195.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7195.024718750001,"end":7195.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7195.0584687499995,"end":7198.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7199.59784375,"end":7207.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":7200.694718750001,"end":7200.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7208.74409375,"end":7214.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7214.49846875,"end":7217.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7217.95784375,"end":7218.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7218.227843750001,"end":7218.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7218.278468750001,"end":7226.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7222.22721875,"end":7222.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":7222.27784375,"end":7222.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7222.32846875,"end":7222.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7226.3447187500005,"end":7226.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7227.171593750001,"end":7232.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7232.79096875,"end":7240.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7237.09409375,"end":7239.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7239.372218750001,"end":7240.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7240.65471875,"end":7252.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7240.6884687500005,"end":7241.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7252.14659375,"end":7252.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7252.163468750001,"end":7252.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7252.55159375,"end":7256.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7255.2684687500005,"end":7258.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7258.42409375,"end":7260.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7261.56284375,"end":7270.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7270.962218750001,"end":7277.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7277.67846875,"end":7281.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7281.357218749999,"end":7281.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7281.374093750001,"end":7281.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7281.71159375,"end":7284.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7284.15846875,"end":7284.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7284.310343749999,"end":7284.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7284.4959687499995,"end":7291.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7287.90471875,"end":7288.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7289.710343750001,"end":7292.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7292.292218750001,"end":7292.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7292.764718750001,"end":7292.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7292.984093750001,"end":7293.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7293.220343750001,"end":7293.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7294.0809687500005,"end":7298.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7298.11409375,"end":7298.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7298.4178437499995,"end":7301.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7301.995343750001,"end":7304.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7304.49284375,"end":7304.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7304.847218750001,"end":7311.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7311.24284375,"end":7317.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7318.397843750001,"end":7325.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7318.93784375,"end":7319.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7324.911593750001,"end":7335.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7335.23909375,"end":7335.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7335.5428437499995,"end":7346.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7344.14909375,"end":7344.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7346.27534375,"end":7346.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7346.714093750001,"end":7350.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7351.13534375,"end":7354.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7354.544093750001,"end":7356.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7357.17659375,"end":7360.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7357.19346875,"end":7357.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7360.9228437500005,"end":7360.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7360.93971875,"end":7370.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7370.288468750001,"end":7370.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7371.452843750001,"end":7380.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7377.52784375,"end":7377.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7377.544718749999,"end":7382.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7382.944718750001,"end":7388.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7388.5809687500005,"end":7388.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7388.800343750001,"end":7388.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7388.86784375,"end":7389.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7389.087218750001,"end":7389.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7389.137843750001,"end":7389.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7389.57659375,"end":7395.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7394.436593750001,"end":7398.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7399.41471875,"end":7399.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7400.27534375,"end":7400.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7401.2372187500005,"end":7401.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7402.36784375,"end":7404.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7404.91596875,"end":7405.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7405.52346875,"end":7425.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7422.044093750001,"end":7424.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7426.499093750001,"end":7430.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7430.279093749999,"end":7437.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7437.2822187500005,"end":7441.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7438.00784375,"end":7438.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7443.57659375,"end":7449.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7446.39471875,"end":7446.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7450.05659375,"end":7451.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7450.64721875,"end":7458.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7458.645968750001,"end":7466.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7462.999718750001,"end":7463.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7466.08784375,"end":7468.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7466.3240937499995,"end":7469.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7470.1209687499995,"end":7470.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7471.673468750001,"end":7484.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7477.529093749999,"end":7478.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7479.58784375,"end":7480.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7482.06846875,"end":7482.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7484.009093750001,"end":7490.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7490.30346875,"end":7500.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7493.897843750001,"end":7497.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7499.280968750001,"end":7501.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7501.05284375,"end":7508.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7507.00971875,"end":7510.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7510.70534375,"end":7511.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7511.68409375,"end":7525.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7517.185343749999,"end":7517.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7527.327218750001,"end":7530.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7530.58409375,"end":7534.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7534.46534375,"end":7537.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7541.73846875,"end":7546.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7546.9022187499995,"end":7547.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7547.03721875,"end":7553.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7552.167218750001,"end":7552.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7552.724093750001,"end":7552.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":7552.74096875,"end":7552.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7552.75784375,"end":7553.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7553.50034375,"end":7553.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7553.97284375,"end":7554.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7554.52971875,"end":7554.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7554.5634687500005,"end":7555.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7554.884093750001,"end":7557.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7557.550343750001,"end":7558.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7558.5965937500005,"end":7559.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7559.74409375,"end":7559.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7559.87909375,"end":7563.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7560.25034375,"end":7563.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7563.47346875,"end":7569.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7569.19409375,"end":7571.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7569.278468750001,"end":7571.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7571.97846875,"end":7572.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7572.34971875,"end":7576.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7572.48471875,"end":7572.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7577.749718750001,"end":7579.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7578.57659375,"end":7580.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7580.517218750001,"end":7580.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":7580.669093750001,"end":7581.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7581.39471875,"end":7581.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7583.706593750001,"end":7585.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7585.967843750001,"end":7587.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7588.026593750001,"end":7590.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7590.91221875,"end":7600.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7601.560343749999,"end":7601.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7602.25221875,"end":7615.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7616.03909375,"end":7616.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7616.663468750001,"end":7623.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7621.8778437500005,"end":7622.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7622.670968750001,"end":7623.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7624.61159375,"end":7624.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7624.965968750001,"end":7626.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7627.19346875,"end":7634.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7634.16284375,"end":7643.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7638.179093750001,"end":7638.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7642.448468750001,"end":7648.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7644.54096875,"end":7644.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7646.481593750001,"end":7649.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7655.25659375,"end":7655.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7656.4715937500005,"end":7663.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7662.29346875,"end":7667.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7667.54159375,"end":7667.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7667.77784375,"end":7667.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7667.811593750001,"end":7667.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7669.3134687500005,"end":7675.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7676.60346875,"end":7679.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7679.7928437499995,"end":7681.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7682.3915937500005,"end":7683.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7684.484093750001,"end":7684.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7685.31096875,"end":7707.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7708.024718750001,"end":7708.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":7708.294718749999,"end":7710.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7709.003468750001,"end":7711.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7711.97346875,"end":7716.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":7716.68159375,"end":7721.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7721.45721875,"end":7721.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7723.65096875,"end":7727.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7788.974093750001,"end":7789.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7789.64909375,"end":7789.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7789.868468750001,"end":7789.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7789.9697187500005,"end":7790.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7790.155343750001,"end":7790.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7790.96534375,"end":7791.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7791.420968750001,"end":7795.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7792.770968750001,"end":7792.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7800.972218750001,"end":7801.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7801.5965937500005,"end":7802.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7802.187218750001,"end":7802.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7802.2040937500005,"end":7802.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7810.69221875,"end":7812.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7813.544093750001,"end":7813.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7813.56096875,"end":7813.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7813.5947187500005,"end":7814.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7813.71284375,"end":7814.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7814.59034375,"end":7815.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7815.029093749999,"end":7815.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7815.180968750001,"end":7815.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7815.67034375,"end":7815.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7815.687218750001,"end":7816.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7816.80096875,"end":7816.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":7816.9697187500005,"end":7817.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8213.565968750001,"end":8219.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8228.04471875,"end":8230.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":8235.55409375,"end":8235.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8235.570968750002,"end":8240.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8235.95909375,"end":8236.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":8236.54971875,"end":8236.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":8236.60034375,"end":8236.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8236.617218750001,"end":8236.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8236.667843750001,"end":8236.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8241.71346875,"end":8249.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8250.167843750001,"end":8258.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8258.90909375,"end":8259.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8260.242218750001,"end":8264.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8264.81534375,"end":8267.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8267.27909375,"end":8268.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8268.477218750002,"end":8274.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8274.55221875,"end":8277.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8277.79221875,"end":8280.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8280.25596875,"end":8288.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8293.03034375,"end":8294.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8294.70096875,"end":8297.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8297.87346875,"end":8301.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8301.585968750001,"end":8305.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8306.10846875,"end":8306.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8306.78346875,"end":8308.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8309.26409375,"end":8312.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8313.077843750001,"end":8313.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8313.65159375,"end":8321.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8321.80221875,"end":8327.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":8327.77596875,"end":8328.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8328.231593750003,"end":8328.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8329.21034375,"end":8329.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8330.57721875,"end":8332.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8332.83846875,"end":8361.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8361.390968750002,"end":8368.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8368.47846875,"end":8376.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8376.34221875,"end":8376.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8376.93284375,"end":8378.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8378.637218750002,"end":8385.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8385.84284375,"end":8386.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8387.294093750003,"end":8394.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8395.20846875,"end":8396.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8397.452843750001,"end":8399.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8399.96721875,"end":8400.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8400.996593750002,"end":8406.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8407.03784375,"end":8408.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8408.894093750001,"end":8411.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8410.83471875,"end":8411.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8411.77971875,"end":8411.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8411.89784375,"end":8411.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8411.965343750002,"end":8412.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8412.67409375,"end":8415.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8415.47534375,"end":8415.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8416.032218750002,"end":8417.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8418.73221875,"end":8423.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8419.660343750002,"end":8431.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8429.684093750002,"end":8431.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8431.65846875,"end":8431.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8431.675343750001,"end":8434.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8435.03346875,"end":8440.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8440.973468750002,"end":8441.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8441.867843750002,"end":8446.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8447.774093750002,"end":8449.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8450.28846875,"end":8474.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8475.398468750001,"end":8485.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8485.523468750001,"end":8515.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8516.067218750002,"end":8523.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8524.36971875,"end":8527.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8528.31846875,"end":8529.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8530.461593750002,"end":8532.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8533.347218750001,"end":8535.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8536.047218750002,"end":8536.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8536.55346875,"end":8538.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8538.325343750003,"end":8548.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8550.863468750002,"end":8565.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8566.45596875,"end":8573.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8573.94846875,"end":8577.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8577.239093750002,"end":8585.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8586.250343750002,"end":8587.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8587.60034375,"end":8591.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8591.19471875,"end":8599.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8600.340968750003,"end":8601.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8602.754093750002,"end":8608.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8608.761593750001,"end":8613.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8613.95909375,"end":8618.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8619.61221875,"end":8619.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8619.96659375,"end":8629.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8620.65846875,"end":8620.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8630.226593750001,"end":8647.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8648.164718750002,"end":8651.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8652.04596875,"end":8659.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8652.07971875,"end":8652.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8659.26846875,"end":8661.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8661.68159375,"end":8666.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8667.38534375,"end":8676.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8677.544093750003,"end":8677.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8677.965968750003,"end":8683.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8683.905968750001,"end":8685.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8686.707218750002,"end":8689.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8690.082218750002,"end":8693.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8693.187218750001,"end":8699.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8699.97096875,"end":8704.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8705.691593750002,"end":8727.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8727.848468750002,"end":8736.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8737.028468750003,"end":8738.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8738.445968750002,"end":8740.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8741.230343750001,"end":8747.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8747.44034375,"end":8750.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8751.675968750002,"end":8762.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8762.745968750001,"end":8773.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8774.06909375,"end":8783.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8783.28284375,"end":8784.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8784.784718750001,"end":8785.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8785.898468750001,"end":8791.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8791.19721875,"end":8797.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8800.05659375,"end":8800.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8800.96784375,"end":8814.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8815.39596875,"end":8826.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8826.70221875,"end":8831.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8832.675968750002,"end":8840.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8835.848468750002,"end":8836.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8841.02909375,"end":8867.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8868.09659375,"end":8871.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8873.243468750003,"end":8875.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8876.331593750001,"end":8877.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8877.934718750003,"end":8880.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8881.84971875,"end":8887.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8888.110343750002,"end":8892.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8891.65409375,"end":8897.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8892.261593750001,"end":8892.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8897.847218750001,"end":8901.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8901.660968750002,"end":8907.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8907.550343750001,"end":8909.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8909.879093750002,"end":8923.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8915.97096875,"end":8916.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8924.324093750001,"end":8930.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8930.21346875,"end":8940.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8940.65909375,"end":8945.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8945.805968750003,"end":8946.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8946.88596875,"end":8949.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8950.125968750002,"end":8950.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8950.800968750002,"end":8951.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8951.94846875,"end":8955.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8955.27284375,"end":8961.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8961.65159375,"end":8961.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8961.70221875,"end":8961.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8961.80346875,"end":8961.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8961.921593750001,"end":8975.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8975.18534375,"end":8983.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8984.31471875,"end":9000.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9001.30784375,"end":9008.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9008.73284375,"end":9010.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9011.247218750003,"end":9013.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9014.132843750001,"end":9016.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9016.512218750002,"end":9020.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9021.13596875,"end":9027.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9027.54846875,"end":9037.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9037.62284375,"end":9050.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9051.22409375,"end":9063.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9064.67346875,"end":9073.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9076.519718750002,"end":9082.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9086.864093750002,"end":9088.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9091.082843750002,"end":9093.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9095.402843750002,"end":9096.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9098.00159375,"end":9107.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9098.38971875,"end":9099.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9107.56971875,"end":9109.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9109.949093750001,"end":9141.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9114.539093750001,"end":9114.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9141.42096875,"end":9147.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9147.495968750001,"end":9157.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9159.308468750001,"end":9162.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9163.61159375,"end":9179.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9181.22909375,"end":9189.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9189.700343750003,"end":9191.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9191.910968750002,"end":9207.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9207.790343750003,"end":9237.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9237.794093750003,"end":9239.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9240.055343750002,"end":9242.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9243.61596875,"end":9254.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9254.702843750001,"end":9262.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9262.988468750002,"end":9266.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9267.004718750002,"end":9275.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9275.40846875,"end":9278.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9278.63159375,"end":9310.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9310.67721875,"end":9314.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9314.507843750001,"end":9332.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9332.26034375,"end":9338.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9338.774093750002,"end":9351.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9351.59909375,"end":9359.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9360.019718750002,"end":9362.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9363.563468750002,"end":9373.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9374.414093750001,"end":9375.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9377.097218750001,"end":9377.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9378.24471875,"end":9381.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9381.88971875,"end":9384.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9384.62346875,"end":9404.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9393.28034375,"end":9393.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":9393.938468750002,"end":9393.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9395.457218750002,"end":9395.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9395.47409375,"end":9395.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":9395.49096875,"end":9395.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9395.74409375,"end":9395.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9399.43971875,"end":9399.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9402.02159375,"end":9404.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9404.940968750001,"end":9412.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9412.58534375,"end":9430.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9430.894718750002,"end":9432.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9432.71721875,"end":9437.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9437.712218750003,"end":9438.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9438.960968750001,"end":9447.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9448.731593750003,"end":9449.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9450.047843750002,"end":9451.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9451.53284375,"end":9461.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9461.65784375,"end":9467.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9467.294093750003,"end":9474.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9469.234718750002,"end":9470.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9470.21346875,"end":9470.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9470.247218750003,"end":9470.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9471.023468750001,"end":9471.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9474.65159375,"end":9477.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9477.11534375,"end":9480.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9480.625343750002,"end":9483.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9483.98346875,"end":9489.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9489.55221875,"end":9501.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9502.343468750001,"end":9504.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9506.460968750001,"end":9517.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9518.290343750003,"end":9527.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9528.820343750001,"end":9529.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9529.714718750001,"end":9537.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9537.375968750002,"end":9538.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9537.44346875,"end":9537.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9538.50659375,"end":9551.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9539.468468750001,"end":9539.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9551.58471875,"end":9552.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9553.289093750001,"end":9558.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9560.00534375,"end":9562.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9562.85721875,"end":9607.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9607.15409375,"end":9613.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9616.941593750002,"end":9616.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9616.992218750001,"end":9617.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9617.009093750003,"end":9620.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9618.81471875,"end":9620.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9621.109718750002,"end":9623.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9621.12659375,"end":9622.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9622.78034375,"end":9645.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9646.152218750001,"end":9649.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9649.61159375,"end":9649.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9650.30346875,"end":9652.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9652.176593750002,"end":9654.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9654.690968750001,"end":9659.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9660.15846875,"end":9681.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9680.08784375,"end":9683.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9683.04096875,"end":9683.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9683.05784375,"end":9683.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9683.226593750001,"end":9683.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9683.243468750003,"end":9683.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9683.294093750003,"end":9683.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9683.344718750002,"end":9683.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9683.51346875,"end":9683.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9683.78346875,"end":9684.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9684.03659375,"end":9705.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9698.86971875,"end":9702.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9704.30346875,"end":9705.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9705.97409375,"end":9722.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9723.304718750001,"end":9725.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9725.954093750002,"end":9729.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9729.582218750002,"end":9731.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9729.59909375,"end":9738.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9738.77909375,"end":9740.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9740.719718750002,"end":9741.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9741.78284375,"end":9745.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9745.815968750001,"end":9752.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9751.519718750002,"end":9761.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9752.80221875,"end":9753.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9758.57346875,"end":9759.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9761.340968750003,"end":9767.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9767.14596875,"end":9769.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9769.74471875,"end":9775.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9776.157218750002,"end":9777.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9777.777218750001,"end":9780.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9781.23659375,"end":9781.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9782.62034375,"end":9784.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9784.847843750002,"end":9791.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9791.547218750002,"end":9791.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9791.56409375,"end":9791.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9791.969093750002,"end":9795.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9792.32346875,"end":9795.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9795.10784375,"end":9795.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9795.141593750002,"end":9795.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9795.85034375,"end":9804.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9799.00596875,"end":9799.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9804.55784375,"end":9812.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9805.85721875,"end":9806.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9811.71284375,"end":9812.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9812.65784375,"end":9814.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9814.159718750001,"end":9831.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9822.765968750002,"end":9823.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9823.457843750002,"end":9823.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9824.149718750003,"end":9824.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9824.200343750003,"end":9824.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9829.17846875,"end":9829.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9831.96284375,"end":9854.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9851.26784375,"end":9851.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9853.22534375,"end":9860.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9858.69284375,"end":9860.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9861.17346875,"end":9869.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9866.35409375,"end":9866.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9867.56909375,"end":9868.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9868.328468750002,"end":9874.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9874.656593750002,"end":9880.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9880.79909375,"end":9886.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9886.637843750003,"end":9893.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9893.97846875,"end":9898.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9899.175968750002,"end":9899.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9901.032218750002,"end":9921.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9921.94034375,"end":9925.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":9932.95971875,"end":9934.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":9934.27596875,"end":9941.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":9934.54596875,"end":9938.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9950.88096875,"end":9951.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9953.47971875,"end":9953.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9955.656593750002,"end":9958.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9959.132843750001,"end":9962.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9970.08471875,"end":9970.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9971.114093750002,"end":9973.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9973.61159375,"end":9983.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9983.922218750002,"end":9986.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9986.976593750001,"end":9989.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9986.993468750003,"end":9990.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9990.520343750002,"end":9990.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9991.212218750003,"end":10026.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10026.227843750003,"end":10038.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10038.42846875,"end":10075.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10075.300343750001,"end":10087.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10086.77534375,"end":10096.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10096.731593750003,"end":10121.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10121.68971875,"end":10121.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10123.090343750002,"end":10123.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10123.86659375,"end":10124.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10126.094093750002,"end":10135.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10136.10096875,"end":10140.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10136.894093750001,"end":10136.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10141.062218750001,"end":10142.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10142.73284375,"end":10146.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10146.73221875,"end":10154.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10155.034718750001,"end":10161.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10160.56971875,"end":10202.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10164.315968750001,"end":10164.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10202.774093750002,"end":10212.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10212.848468750002,"end":10246.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10247.05409375,"end":10273.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10258.54596875,"end":10258.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10273.68284375,"end":10277.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10277.648468750001,"end":10284.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10282.25534375,"end":10283.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10284.769718750002,"end":10291.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10290.355343750001,"end":10296.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10293.88221875,"end":10294.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10296.734093750001,"end":10299.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10299.704093750002,"end":10310.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10306.30221875,"end":10306.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10310.183468750001,"end":10311.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10311.21284375,"end":10315.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10316.460968750001,"end":10322.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10323.04221875,"end":10339.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10340.406593750002,"end":10340.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10340.828468750002,"end":10346.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10340.84534375,"end":10341.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10343.02221875,"end":10344.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10347.02159375,"end":10394.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10395.570968750002,"end":10401.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10401.359093750001,"end":10418.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10401.747218750003,"end":10401.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10401.780968750001,"end":10401.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10401.831593750001,"end":10401.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10417.27221875,"end":10417.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10418.84159375,"end":10423.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10423.65096875,"end":10451.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":10435.800968750002,"end":10436.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10446.516593750002,"end":10446.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10450.313468750002,"end":10451.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10452.355343750001,"end":10453.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10452.69284375,"end":10454.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10453.840343750002,"end":10464.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10464.859718750002,"end":10495.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10494.981593750003,"end":10501.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10497.73221875,"end":10499.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10501.832843750002,"end":10507.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10507.992218750001,"end":10539.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10538.907218750002,"end":10539.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10539.51471875,"end":10555.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10555.47846875,"end":10558.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10558.44846875,"end":10560.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10561.097843750002,"end":10561.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10562.24534375,"end":10580.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10580.655968750001,"end":10582.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10580.723468750002,"end":10580.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10581.63471875,"end":10594.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10594.61159375,"end":10600.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10600.83846875,"end":10602.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10603.25159375,"end":10604.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10604.73659375,"end":10610.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10610.997218750003,"end":10732.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10733.020343750002,"end":10741.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":10739.93909375,"end":10741.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10741.84596875,"end":10749.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10749.54096875,"end":10753.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10753.77659375,"end":10758.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10759.075343750003,"end":10761.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10761.82596875,"end":10767.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10767.47909375,"end":10770.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10770.938468750002,"end":10771.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10771.664093750001,"end":10774.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10775.29221875,"end":10777.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10778.97096875,"end":10786.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10787.15534375,"end":10797.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10797.972218750001,"end":10824.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10826.28846875,"end":10829.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10829.899718750003,"end":10832.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10832.49846875,"end":10834.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10834.97909375,"end":10839.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10839.40034375,"end":10843.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10844.547218750002,"end":10849.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10849.59284375,"end":10850.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10851.347843750002,"end":10855.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10855.49909375,"end":10856.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10856.849093750003,"end":10857.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10857.743468750003,"end":10860.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10860.44346875,"end":10863.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10863.56534375,"end":10866.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10867.24409375,"end":10906.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":10906.44471875,"end":10906.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10906.69784375,"end":10937.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":10939.047218750002,"end":10943.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10955.51721875,"end":10956.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10959.786593750003,"end":10961.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10962.469718750002,"end":10963.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10966.840343750002,"end":10969.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10970.08034375,"end":10970.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10971.582218750002,"end":10978.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10979.175968750002,"end":10982.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10982.46659375,"end":10988.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10988.406593750002,"end":10991.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10991.96721875,"end":10994.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10994.852843750003,"end":10996.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10996.742843750002,"end":10999.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10999.72971875,"end":11005.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11006.41221875,"end":11006.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11007.289718750002,"end":11007.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11008.89284375,"end":11018.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11018.69721875,"end":11027.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11028.09659375,"end":11028.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11028.77159375,"end":11030.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11030.543468750002,"end":11033.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11035.285343750002,"end":11037.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11039.01471875,"end":11039.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11040.077843750001,"end":11041.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11042.32221875,"end":11042.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11044.02659375,"end":11044.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11044.90409375,"end":11051.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11051.56971875,"end":11052.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11052.39659375,"end":11064.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11064.90096875,"end":11065.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11065.64346875,"end":11074.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11075.262218750002,"end":11078.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11079.599093750003,"end":11083.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11084.20596875,"end":11092.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11092.727843750003,"end":11093.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11094.17909375,"end":11098.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11098.583468750003,"end":11104.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11103.645968750003,"end":11106.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11106.902843750002,"end":11111.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11110.547843750002,"end":11112.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11111.89784375,"end":11119.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11120.36909375,"end":11124.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11124.874718750001,"end":11128.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11124.97596875,"end":11125.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11128.87409375,"end":11141.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11141.95221875,"end":11145.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11146.47471875,"end":11151.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11149.934093750002,"end":11150.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11151.149093750002,"end":11152.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11153.089718750001,"end":11153.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11153.106593750003,"end":11154.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11155.08096875,"end":11167.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11167.78784375,"end":11171.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11171.36534375,"end":11175.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11176.140968750002,"end":11181.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11181.422843750002,"end":11190.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11191.075343750003,"end":11198.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11196.981593750003,"end":11208.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11199.31034375,"end":11199.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11208.60846875,"end":11208.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11208.81096875,"end":11209.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11209.418468750002,"end":11212.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11213.215343750002,"end":11213.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11216.168468750002,"end":11220.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11220.52221875,"end":11223.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11224.133468750002,"end":11231.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11232.16596875,"end":11233.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11232.199718750002,"end":11235.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11235.33846875,"end":11237.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11237.937218750001,"end":11241.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11242.08846875,"end":11245.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11242.223468750002,"end":11243.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11245.952843750001,"end":11246.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11247.40409375,"end":11256.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11253.445343750001,"end":11255.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11256.80346875,"end":11259.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11260.07721875,"end":11264.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11263.536593750003,"end":11276.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11277.171593750001,"end":11285.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11285.17034375,"end":11292.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11292.308468750001,"end":11295.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11295.700343750003,"end":11301.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11301.640343750001,"end":11304.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11305.184093750002,"end":11308.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11308.559093750002,"end":11337.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11338.512218750002,"end":11346.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11345.59971875,"end":11352.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11353.159718750001,"end":11364.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11364.22971875,"end":11364.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11364.617843750002,"end":11367.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11367.840968750003,"end":11378.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11378.67471875,"end":11380.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11379.87284375,"end":11380.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11381.813468750002,"end":11382.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11383.61909375,"end":11386.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11386.656593750002,"end":11394.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11395.414718750002,"end":11398.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11399.262218750002,"end":11401.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11402.839718750001,"end":11410.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11410.534718750001,"end":11411.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11411.817218750002,"end":11417.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11418.297218750002,"end":11425.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11426.12721875,"end":11428.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11428.97909375,"end":11432.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11433.535343750002,"end":11441.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11441.331593750001,"end":11468.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11447.727218750002,"end":11451.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11468.922218750002,"end":11470.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11471.234093750001,"end":11471.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11472.465968750003,"end":11485.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11486.55659375,"end":11496.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11496.411593750003,"end":11498.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11498.47034375,"end":11501.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11502.300968750002,"end":11502.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11502.351593750001,"end":11502.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11502.43596875,"end":11502.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11502.90846875,"end":11517.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11517.758468750002,"end":11519.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11520.070343750001,"end":11522.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11522.48346875,"end":11523.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11523.36096875,"end":11523.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11523.95159375,"end":11526.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11526.80346875,"end":11530.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11526.85409375,"end":11527.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11531.27534375,"end":11538.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11538.97034375,"end":11544.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11540.539718750002,"end":11541.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":11541.636593750001,"end":11541.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11543.239718750003,"end":11553.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11553.668468750002,"end":11555.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11555.980343750001,"end":11557.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11557.81971875,"end":11560.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11558.190968750001,"end":11558.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11560.992218750001,"end":11561.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11561.565968750001,"end":11562.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11563.050968750002,"end":11567.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11565.76784375,"end":11566.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11567.792843750001,"end":11568.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11568.02909375,"end":11572.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11568.07971875,"end":11568.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11575.302218750003,"end":11575.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11575.52159375,"end":11575.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11575.977218750002,"end":11576.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":11576.95596875,"end":11577.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11578.356593750003,"end":11580.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11580.70221875,"end":11583.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11583.70596875,"end":11587.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11586.54096875,"end":11588.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11588.684093750002,"end":11605.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11605.930343750002,"end":11614.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11611.262843750003,"end":11613.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11614.992218750001,"end":11624.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11615.19471875,"end":11615.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11622.45096875,"end":11622.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11624.94846875,"end":11626.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11626.46721875,"end":11634.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11634.60096875,"end":11638.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11638.988468750002,"end":11644.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11646.44721875,"end":11648.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":11648.52284375,"end":11648.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11649.704093750002,"end":11650.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":11650.125968750002,"end":11651.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":11651.425343750001,"end":11652.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11653.04534375,"end":11654.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11657.09534375,"end":11659.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11660.33534375,"end":11661.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11663.052218750003,"end":11665.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12053.99534375,"end":12054.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12054.012218750002,"end":12054.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12054.062843750002,"end":12055.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12055.31159375,"end":12055.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12060.036593750003,"end":12060.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12062.702843750001,"end":12074.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12062.770343750002,"end":12064.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12064.94721875,"end":12064.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12064.96409375,"end":12066.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12066.027218750001,"end":12066.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12066.246593750002,"end":12066.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12066.972218750001,"end":12067.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12067.984718750002,"end":12068.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12068.237843750001,"end":12069.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12069.402218750001,"end":12069.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12069.43596875,"end":12069.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12072.22034375,"end":12072.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12072.625343750002,"end":12072.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12074.160968750002,"end":12078.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12078.71721875,"end":12081.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12080.421593750001,"end":12080.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12080.792843750001,"end":12081.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12081.315968750001,"end":12082.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12082.73346875,"end":12082.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12082.76721875,"end":12083.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12083.05409375,"end":12083.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12083.15534375,"end":12083.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12083.172218750002,"end":12083.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12083.56034375,"end":12083.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12083.695343750001,"end":12088.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12083.89784375,"end":12084.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12084.977843750003,"end":12085.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12085.028468750003,"end":12085.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12085.68659375,"end":12085.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12086.243468750003,"end":12086.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12087.390968750002,"end":12088.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12088.79159375,"end":12088.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12091.32284375,"end":12093.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12091.79534375,"end":12092.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12093.16221875,"end":12097.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12097.515968750002,"end":12099.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12100.317218750002,"end":12254.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12255.347843750002,"end":12276.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12277.36971875,"end":12305.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12307.035968750002,"end":12461.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12461.796593750001,"end":12482.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12482.316593750002,"end":12498.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12499.32659375,"end":12529.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12531.33846875,"end":12551.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12553.02284375,"end":12589.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12593.55659375,"end":12597.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12598.973468750002,"end":12599.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12607.259093750003,"end":12614.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12615.426593750002,"end":12629.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12631.22159375,"end":12631.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12631.96409375,"end":12631.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12631.980968750002,"end":12632.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12632.41971875,"end":12632.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12634.17471875,"end":12638.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12641.19471875,"end":12689.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12689.84534375,"end":12691.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12692.055968750003,"end":12697.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12697.523468750001,"end":12703.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12703.26096875,"end":12709.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12710.179718750001,"end":12714.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12714.820343750001,"end":12720.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12720.675968750002,"end":12721.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12722.34659375,"end":12722.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12723.308468750001,"end":12723.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12724.017218750003,"end":12726.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12726.66659375,"end":12728.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12728.97846875,"end":12731.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12733.028468750003,"end":12734.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12736.757843750001,"end":12739.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":12740.453468750002,"end":12740.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12740.74034375,"end":12740.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12743.625968750002,"end":12744.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12747.794093750003,"end":12748.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12749.34659375,"end":12753.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12749.49846875,"end":12751.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12752.60346875,"end":12752.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12752.637218750002,"end":12753.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12753.902843750002,"end":12755.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12755.792843750001,"end":12756.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12757.176593750002,"end":12757.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12760.09596875,"end":12760.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12760.973468750002,"end":12761.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12763.26846875,"end":12766.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":12766.96409375,"end":12767.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":12767.706593750001,"end":12767.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":12769.07346875,"end":12769.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":12770.254718750002,"end":12774.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":12776.802218750003,"end":12821.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12819.546593750001,"end":12819.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12821.90909375,"end":12822.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12822.58409375,"end":12829.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":12824.895968750003,"end":12825.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":12826.245968750001,"end":12827.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":12827.460968750001,"end":12827.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":12829.097843750002,"end":12829.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12830.532218750002,"end":12830.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12840.505343750003,"end":12861.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12854.629718750002,"end":12855.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12861.126593750003,"end":12861.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12861.71721875,"end":12862.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12862.03784375,"end":12862.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12862.61159375,"end":12862.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12862.628468750001,"end":12863.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12863.860343750002,"end":12864.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12865.29471875,"end":12869.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12869.817218750002,"end":12870.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12870.52596875,"end":12870.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12872.820968750002,"end":12872.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12872.83784375,"end":12879.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":12879.520343750002,"end":12879.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12879.925343750001,"end":12880.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12880.48221875,"end":12880.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12880.49909375,"end":12880.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12880.97159375,"end":12886.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12886.72596875,"end":12887.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12887.72159375,"end":12887.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12887.738468750002,"end":12888.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12888.02534375,"end":12888.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12888.059093750002,"end":12888.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12888.09284375,"end":12888.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12888.852218750002,"end":12890.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12890.961593750002,"end":12891.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12891.04596875,"end":12891.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12894.336593750002,"end":12895.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12895.433468750001,"end":12896.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12899.48346875,"end":12901.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12901.879718750002,"end":12925.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12926.669093750003,"end":12932.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12933.21659375,"end":12934.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12935.22471875,"end":12946.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12947.35784375,"end":12948.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12950.597843750002,"end":12961.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12961.364093750002,"end":12971.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12971.961593750002,"end":12973.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12973.902218750001,"end":12982.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12982.42409375,"end":12985.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12985.52909375,"end":12988.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12989.309093750002,"end":12991.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12992.380343750003,"end":12992.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12993.19034375,"end":12993.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12993.848468750002,"end":12996.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12997.105343750001,"end":12998.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":12998.77596875,"end":12998.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13000.21034375,"end":13005.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13005.74534375,"end":13008.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13006.757843750001,"end":13008.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13008.512843750003,"end":13011.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13011.90471875,"end":13017.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13018.40159375,"end":13020.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13023.19409375,"end":13031.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13031.766593750002,"end":13032.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13033.15034375,"end":13040.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13040.879093750002,"end":13045.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13045.114718750003,"end":13048.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13049.45159375,"end":13051.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13052.62409375,"end":13052.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13053.585968750001,"end":13053.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13054.007843750001,"end":13054.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13055.914718750002,"end":13058.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13059.036593750003,"end":13064.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13065.077843750001,"end":13065.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13066.07346875,"end":13067.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13067.625968750002,"end":13067.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13067.980343750001,"end":13069.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13067.997218750003,"end":13068.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13068.58784375,"end":13068.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13069.785968750002,"end":13076.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13079.77596875,"end":13082.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13083.35346875,"end":13085.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13086.00284375,"end":13090.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13092.735968750003,"end":13092.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13092.75284375,"end":13127.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13129.202843750001,"end":13130.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13133.489093750002,"end":13136.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13146.38159375,"end":13148.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13149.098468750002,"end":13151.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13151.039093750001,"end":13151.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13154.481593750003,"end":13161.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13162.24409375,"end":13169.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13169.85471875,"end":13170.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13170.512843750003,"end":13187.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13187.759093750003,"end":13209.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13209.899093750002,"end":13216.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13217.189093750003,"end":13219.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13219.399718750003,"end":13220.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13220.800343750001,"end":13223.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13224.090968750003,"end":13226.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13227.53346875,"end":13255.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13258.33034375,"end":13258.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13258.364093750002,"end":13258.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13258.887218750002,"end":13259.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13260.051593750002,"end":13260.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13260.524093750002,"end":13260.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":13260.675968750002,"end":13260.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":13261.97534375,"end":13263.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13264.219718750002,"end":13267.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13271.222843750002,"end":13276.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13277.36534375,"end":13279.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13280.38596875,"end":13283.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13289.363468750002,"end":13295.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13295.82659375,"end":13296.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13297.007843750001,"end":13297.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13298.222843750002,"end":13300.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13303.437218750001,"end":13306.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13307.132843750001,"end":13307.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13307.21721875,"end":13307.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13307.41971875,"end":13307.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13307.925968750002,"end":13308.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13310.01846875,"end":13312.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13310.558468750001,"end":13311.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13311.030968750001,"end":13311.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13313.258468750002,"end":13313.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13313.27534375,"end":13314.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13314.96284375,"end":13319.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13319.29971875,"end":13319.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13319.97471875,"end":13330.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13331.095343750003,"end":13338.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13338.18284375,"end":13338.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13339.465343750002,"end":13348.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13351.109093750001,"end":13351.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13352.189093750003,"end":13354.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13355.142218750003,"end":13357.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13359.242843750002,"end":13362.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13363.461593750002,"end":13375.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13375.999718750001,"end":13376.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13380.657218750002,"end":13382.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13382.93534375,"end":13383.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13389.314093750003,"end":13389.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13390.292843750001,"end":13390.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13392.01409375,"end":13392.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13393.49909375,"end":13394.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13395.726593750001,"end":13398.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13399.45596875,"end":13405.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13406.374718750001,"end":13413.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13415.16659375,"end":13416.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13416.75284375,"end":13419.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13421.02221875,"end":13422.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13422.86159375,"end":13424.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13425.949718750002,"end":13429.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13429.493468750003,"end":13430.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13431.34971875,"end":13431.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13433.67846875,"end":13434.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13435.703468750002,"end":13437.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13437.72846875,"end":13446.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13447.44846875,"end":13449.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13449.675968750002,"end":13454.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13455.41346875,"end":13457.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13458.164093750001,"end":13461.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13462.09596875,"end":13465.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13466.21346875,"end":13466.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13467.74909375,"end":13471.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13471.95096875,"end":13476.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13477.50284375,"end":13481.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13481.704718750003,"end":13485.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13486.227218750002,"end":13493.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13493.939093750003,"end":13507.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13508.367218750001,"end":13516.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13516.821593750003,"end":13518.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13519.47096875,"end":13525.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13525.765343750001,"end":13530.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13531.60409375,"end":13537.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13533.96659375,"end":13534.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13537.40909375,"end":13540.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13541.50971875,"end":13546.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13547.280968750001,"end":13550.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13550.824718750002,"end":13555.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13555.718468750001,"end":13561.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13562.789093750001,"end":13566.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13567.109093750001,"end":13572.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13572.72846875,"end":13576.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13576.761593750001,"end":13577.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13578.06096875,"end":13580.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13581.23346875,"end":13582.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13583.106593750003,"end":13584.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13585.620968750001,"end":13588.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13589.18159375,"end":13591.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13591.67909375,"end":13597.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":13597.551593750002,"end":13597.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13598.09159375,"end":13599.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13599.289718750002,"end":13601.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13601.58471875,"end":13602.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13603.019093750001,"end":13603.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13603.06971875,"end":13610.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13611.270968750003,"end":13612.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13612.587218750003,"end":13613.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13614.98346875,"end":13615.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13615.540343750003,"end":13616.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13617.008468750002,"end":13620.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13621.109093750001,"end":13622.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13622.762843750003,"end":13622.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13623.269093750001,"end":13625.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13625.867843750002,"end":13628.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13629.563468750002,"end":13638.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13639.97534375,"end":13641.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13642.28721875,"end":13646.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13646.387843750003,"end":13647.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13648.581593750001,"end":13652.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13653.137843750003,"end":13657.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13658.352218750002,"end":13662.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13663.06034375,"end":13672.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13672.88159375,"end":13676.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13673.15159375,"end":13674.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13677.336593750002,"end":13684.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13684.660343750002,"end":13687.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":13688.37284375,"end":13688.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":13688.38971875,"end":13688.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13689.16596875,"end":13690.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13690.54971875,"end":13696.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13697.40096875,"end":13700.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13700.843468750001,"end":13707.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13707.812843750002,"end":13708.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13709.31471875,"end":13709.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13710.192218750002,"end":13713.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13713.465968750003,"end":13720.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13721.110343750002,"end":13739.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13740.48284375,"end":13741.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13741.731593750003,"end":13744.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13745.359718750002,"end":13746.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13746.794093750003,"end":13748.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13749.679718750001,"end":13752.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13754.03346875,"end":13755.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13755.78846875,"end":13756.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13757.340968750003,"end":13757.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13758.30284375,"end":13760.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13761.35721875,"end":13762.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13763.820968750002,"end":13769.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13769.777843750002,"end":13772.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13772.17409375,"end":13782.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13773.65909375,"end":13774.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13783.429718750001,"end":13786.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13785.30284375,"end":13789.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13789.032218750002,"end":13792.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13793.06534375,"end":13794.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13794.26346875,"end":13799.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13800.000968750002,"end":13806.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13809.40034375,"end":13809.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13809.434093750002,"end":13810.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13810.952843750001,"end":13820.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13820.234093750001,"end":13825.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13825.85346875,"end":13828.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13828.890968750002,"end":13830.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13831.067843750003,"end":13832.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13833.07596875,"end":13835.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13836.062843750002,"end":13838.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13839.437843750002,"end":13845.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13845.95159375,"end":13847.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13848.398468750001,"end":13851.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13852.33034375,"end":13859.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13859.535968750002,"end":13863.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13863.383468750002,"end":13867.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13868.277218750001,"end":13874.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13875.449093750001,"end":13880.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13881.878468750001,"end":13886.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13886.87346875,"end":13897.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13898.247218750003,"end":13900.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13901.099093750003,"end":13901.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13902.044093750003,"end":13902.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":13902.68534375,"end":13904.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13905.047843750002,"end":13905.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13905.48659375,"end":13914.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13914.801593750002,"end":13916.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13917.67034375,"end":13919.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13919.543468750002,"end":13921.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13921.93971875,"end":13938.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13939.017218750003,"end":13945.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13945.750343750002,"end":13954.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13954.812218750001,"end":13960.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13960.17846875,"end":13960.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13961.12346875,"end":13964.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13964.464718750001,"end":13973.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13974.505343750003,"end":13995.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13995.700343750003,"end":14005.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14005.94346875,"end":14019.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14019.76409375,"end":14021.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14021.23221875,"end":14028.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14029.16346875,"end":14043.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14043.827843750001,"end":14047.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14048.434718750003,"end":14050.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14051.20221875,"end":14056.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14056.956593750001,"end":14058.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14058.32346875,"end":14060.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14059.302218750003,"end":14062.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14064.044093750003,"end":14067.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14067.891593750002,"end":14069.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14069.59596875,"end":14070.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14070.827843750001,"end":14079.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14073.629093750002,"end":14074.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14079.265343750001,"end":14079.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14080.78409375,"end":14081.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14081.99909375,"end":14084.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14084.00721875,"end":14084.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14084.226593750001,"end":14084.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14084.243468750003,"end":14084.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14084.327843750001,"end":14084.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14084.547218750002,"end":14084.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14084.564093750003,"end":14084.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14084.58096875,"end":14085.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14084.766593750002,"end":14084.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":14084.969093750002,"end":14085.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":14085.188468750002,"end":14085.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14085.964718750001,"end":14088.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14088.546593750001,"end":14088.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":14088.63096875,"end":14088.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14088.782843750003,"end":14095.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14095.515968750002,"end":14101.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":14101.30409375,"end":14101.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14101.590968750003,"end":14110.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14108.52659375,"end":14111.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14111.445968750002,"end":14114.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14113.84221875,"end":14118.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14116.94721875,"end":14119.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14120.879093750002,"end":14121.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14121.030968750001,"end":14121.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14121.081593750001,"end":14121.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14121.672218750002,"end":14121.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":14121.70596875,"end":14121.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14121.773468750001,"end":14121.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14121.97596875,"end":14122.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14122.00971875,"end":14122.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14122.02659375,"end":14122.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14122.094093750002,"end":14122.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14122.566593750002,"end":14122.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14123.49471875,"end":14126.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14127.359093750001,"end":14130.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14137.872218750003,"end":14140.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14141.669093750003,"end":14142.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14146.42784375,"end":14146.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14146.815968750001,"end":14146.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14146.86659375,"end":14147.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14147.254718750002,"end":14157.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14158.054718750001,"end":14166.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14166.57659375,"end":14166.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14166.812843750002,"end":14167.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14167.251593750003,"end":14202.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14203.313468750002,"end":14205.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14205.76034375,"end":14214.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14214.99096875,"end":14216.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14216.239718750003,"end":14223.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14224.27221875,"end":14234.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14234.76846875,"end":14245.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14244.84284375,"end":14266.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":14257.22909375,"end":14257.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14257.43159375,"end":14258.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14258.680343750002,"end":14259.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14267.03346875,"end":14269.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14270.222843750002,"end":14281.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14279.132843750001,"end":14279.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14280.347843750002,"end":14315.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14316.224093750003,"end":14317.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14317.894718750002,"end":14329.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14329.774718750003,"end":14330.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14331.090968750003,"end":14339.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14334.95534375,"end":14336.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14339.055968750003,"end":14347.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14347.24034375,"end":14347.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14347.965968750003,"end":14352.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14353.21409375,"end":14359.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14356.52159375,"end":14358.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14359.930343750002,"end":14360.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14360.26784375,"end":14368.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14368.097843750002,"end":14375.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14375.235968750003,"end":14378.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14377.26096875,"end":14379.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14379.37034375,"end":14398.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14381.867843750002,"end":14384.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14385.445343750001,"end":14386.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14398.793468750002,"end":14403.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14404.075343750003,"end":14404.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14404.446593750003,"end":14411.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14405.45909375,"end":14406.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14411.11221875,"end":14417.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14417.035343750002,"end":14417.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14417.44034375,"end":14418.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14417.49096875,"end":14419.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14419.70159375,"end":14427.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14427.278468750003,"end":14429.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14428.56096875,"end":14432.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14433.454718750003,"end":14454.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":14443.22534375,"end":14443.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14452.97909375,"end":14460.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14461.399718750003,"end":14467.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14468.48721875,"end":14470.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14470.090343750002,"end":14473.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14474.359718750002,"end":14474.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14474.410343750002,"end":14570.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14474.427218750003,"end":14474.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14474.798468750003,"end":14475.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14475.102218750002,"end":14475.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14475.11909375,"end":14475.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14475.13596875,"end":14475.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14475.152843750002,"end":14475.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":14570.969093750002,"end":14571.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14570.985968750003,"end":14575.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14575.12034375,"end":14591.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14591.77596875,"end":14600.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14601.192218750002,"end":14609.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14609.86596875,"end":14611.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14611.739093750002,"end":14626.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14626.04909375,"end":14628.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14626.42034375,"end":14628.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14628.968468750001,"end":14629.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14629.626593750003,"end":14637.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14629.727843750003,"end":14629.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14637.321593750003,"end":14637.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14637.355343750001,"end":14637.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14638.18221875,"end":14638.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14638.199093750001,"end":14643.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16448.43096875,"end":16453.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16468.78221875,"end":16471.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16472.05596875,"end":16472.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16478.350343750004,"end":16491.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16491.56346875,"end":16491.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16491.90096875,"end":16513.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16514.209718750004,"end":16520.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16520.68971875,"end":16567.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16567.39971875,"end":16569.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16570.217843749997,"end":16576.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16576.410968750002,"end":16579.077218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16579.41471875,"end":16586.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16585.65846875,"end":16613.147843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16612.067843750003,"end":16618.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16617.585968749998,"end":16633.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16633.617218749998,"end":16641.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16642.020968750003,"end":16643.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16642.544093750003,"end":16645.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16646.155343749997,"end":16652.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16652.61846875,"end":16656.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16657.03971875,"end":16661.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16660.279718750004,"end":16666.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16667.41784375,"end":16670.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16670.87721875,"end":16674.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16674.505343750003,"end":16678.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16678.825343750003,"end":16678.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16678.842218750004,"end":16683.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16683.145343750002,"end":16683.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16683.820343749998,"end":16684.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16684.59659375,"end":16688.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16684.61346875,"end":16685.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16689.54096875,"end":16689.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16689.912218750003,"end":16689.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16689.94596875,"end":16689.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16689.96284375,"end":16690.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16690.030343749997,"end":16690.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16690.26659375,"end":16690.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16690.30034375,"end":16691.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16690.317218750002,"end":16693.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16691.937218749998,"end":16701.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16702.028468750003,"end":16712.389718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16704.880343750003,"end":16705.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16710.61784375,"end":16731.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16731.61034375,"end":16735.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16736.14971875,"end":16740.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16741.21221875,"end":16751.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16752.19784375,"end":16808.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16808.475968749997,"end":16814.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16814.75346875,"end":16815.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16815.46221875,"end":16820.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16820.54159375,"end":16838.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16820.64284375,"end":16820.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16822.397843749997,"end":16823.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16838.209718750004,"end":16847.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16846.27596875,"end":16854.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16854.865343750003,"end":16857.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16854.949718750002,"end":16855.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16856.265968749998,"end":16884.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16882.45596875,"end":16894.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16894.521593750003,"end":16897.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16897.86284375,"end":16900.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16899.53346875,"end":16954.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16911.194093750004,"end":16911.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16911.22784375,"end":16911.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16911.413468749997,"end":16911.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16954.79909375,"end":16960.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16960.435343750003,"end":16966.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16966.459718750004,"end":16977.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16985.039093749998,"end":16986.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16987.840343750002,"end":16991.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16991.873468750004,"end":16992.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16992.98721875,"end":16998.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16998.67409375,"end":17006.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17000.429093749997,"end":17001.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17004.107843750004,"end":17004.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17004.88409375,"end":17005.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17007.02721875,"end":17007.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17007.43221875,"end":17013.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17015.00909375,"end":17022.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17022.147218750004,"end":17051.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17051.20596875,"end":17069.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17068.350968749997,"end":17096.295968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17096.75159375,"end":17108.952218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17109.30659375,"end":17115.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17114.67284375,"end":17115.499718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17115.499718749998,"end":17115.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17115.53346875,"end":17145.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17144.87909375,"end":17159.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17158.44659375,"end":17215.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17215.63596875,"end":17242.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17242.92284375,"end":17244.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17244.93096875,"end":17249.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17255.730968750002,"end":17257.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17259.08909375,"end":17260.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17260.084718750004,"end":17261.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17262.44721875,"end":17266.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17265.990968750004,"end":17266.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17266.96971875,"end":17271.053468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17271.053468750004,"end":17271.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17271.272843749997,"end":17271.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17271.28971875,"end":17271.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17271.50909375,"end":17271.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17271.559718750003,"end":17271.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17272.116593749997,"end":17273.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17276.014718749997,"end":17276.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17276.031593749998,"end":17282.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17282.950343750003,"end":17288.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17288.92409375,"end":17288.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17288.957843750002,"end":17292.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17289.194093750004,"end":17291.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17293.092218750004,"end":17302.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17293.14284375,"end":17293.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17302.052843750003,"end":17303.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17304.87096875,"end":17308.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17308.76909375,"end":17315.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17315.046593749998,"end":17315.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17315.19846875,"end":17315.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17315.367218749998,"end":17330.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17331.381593750004,"end":17339.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17339.599718750003,"end":17339.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17339.684093750002,"end":17339.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17340.30846875,"end":17380.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17350.19721875,"end":17350.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17364.507218749997,"end":17364.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17380.03221875,"end":17380.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17380.99409375,"end":17381.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17381.027843750002,"end":17386.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17387.254718750002,"end":17391.085343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17391.45659375,"end":17393.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17393.920343750004,"end":17425.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17425.40909375,"end":17427.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17427.990968750004,"end":17436.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17436.78284375,"end":17441.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17441.74409375,"end":17445.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17445.45659375,"end":17449.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17449.57409375,"end":17453.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17453.55659375,"end":17458.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17459.209718750004,"end":17513.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17513.817218750002,"end":17522.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17522.87909375,"end":17540.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17522.912843750004,"end":17523.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17523.520343750002,"end":17523.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17523.756593750004,"end":17524.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17525.07284375,"end":17525.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17527.114718750003,"end":17527.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":17527.148468749998,"end":17527.350968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17527.350968749997,"end":17527.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17529.139718749997,"end":17529.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17540.969093749998,"end":17541.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17541.357218750003,"end":17541.374093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17541.374093749997,"end":17541.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17541.559718750003,"end":17541.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17541.64409375,"end":17545.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17545.76159375,"end":17579.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17559.919718750003,"end":17560.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17574.482843750004,"end":17574.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17574.904718750004,"end":17574.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17578.31346875,"end":17587.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17587.81409375,"end":17588.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17588.202218749997,"end":17607.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17607.692843750003,"end":17624.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17624.93909375,"end":17639.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17624.97284375,"end":17627.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17635.26659375,"end":17635.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17639.552843750003,"end":17641.358468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17641.52721875,"end":17646.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17646.522218750004,"end":17654.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17654.875343749998,"end":17655.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17656.309718750003,"end":17663.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17663.160968750002,"end":17666.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17666.957843750002,"end":17670.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17670.41721875,"end":17670.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17670.754718750002,"end":17670.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17670.906593749998,"end":17680.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17677.58909375,"end":17677.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17680.879718750002,"end":17681.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17681.36909375,"end":17686.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17686.22909375,"end":17687.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17687.71409375,"end":17697.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":17691.359093749998,"end":17691.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17691.39284375,"end":17693.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17698.15971875,"end":17698.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17698.176593750002,"end":17698.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17698.294718750003,"end":17698.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17698.514093750004,"end":17700.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17700.842843749997,"end":17727.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17715.152843750002,"end":17715.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17727.809093750002,"end":17775.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17732.53409375,"end":17733.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17742.55784375,"end":17743.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17774.73846875,"end":17785.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":17784.660968750002,"end":17784.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":17784.96471875,"end":17785.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17785.06596875,"end":17785.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17785.45409375,"end":17799.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17799.91596875,"end":17811.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17811.96471875,"end":17812.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17812.35284375,"end":17821.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17821.499093749997,"end":17843.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17833.36221875,"end":17833.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17833.58159375,"end":17833.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17833.615343750003,"end":17833.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17843.28471875,"end":17843.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17843.318468750003,"end":17844.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17844.02721875,"end":17859.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17847.26721875,"end":17848.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17849.39346875,"end":17849.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17859.771593750003,"end":17875.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17875.85346875,"end":17884.358468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17884.83096875,"end":17895.327218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17895.37784375,"end":17895.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17896.390343749998,"end":17897.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17897.976593749998,"end":17901.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17902.24596875,"end":17902.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17902.97159375,"end":17903.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17903.106593750003,"end":17903.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17903.224718750003,"end":17903.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17903.71409375,"end":17926.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17907.662843750004,"end":17908.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17913.61971875,"end":17914.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17926.090343750002,"end":17934.561593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17926.107218750003,"end":17927.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17928.638468750003,"end":17928.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17929.56659375,"end":17930.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17935.169093750003,"end":17939.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17938.341593750003,"end":17938.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17939.320343749998,"end":17939.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17939.79284375,"end":17943.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17945.17596875,"end":17952.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17951.16659375,"end":17951.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17952.280343749997,"end":17952.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":17952.31409375,"end":17952.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17952.567218750002,"end":17954.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17954.55846875,"end":17963.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17963.38409375,"end":17966.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":17966.624093749997,"end":17974.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17974.35284375,"end":17974.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17974.89284375,"end":17979.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17979.12846875,"end":17993.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":17993.725343750004,"end":18019.780343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17995.075343750003,"end":17995.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18010.060343750003,"end":18010.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":18019.662218750003,"end":18029.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":18024.15096875,"end":18024.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":18027.94784375,"end":18028.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18028.099718750003,"end":18029.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18030.24284375,"end":18035.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18043.185968750004,"end":18047.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18046.763468750003,"end":18046.780343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18046.780343749997,"end":18047.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18047.67471875,"end":18047.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18047.89409375,"end":18048.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18051.99471875,"end":18061.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18062.085968749998,"end":18086.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18086.50409375,"end":18111.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18094.671593749998,"end":18095.295968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18112.474718750003,"end":18114.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18115.107218750003,"end":18116.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18116.912843750004,"end":18149.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18150.49409375,"end":18153.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18153.98721875,"end":18155.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18156.687218749998,"end":18157.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18157.98659375,"end":18166.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18166.474718750003,"end":18181.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18182.185343750003,"end":18184.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18184.412843750004,"end":18188.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18189.374093749997,"end":18191.804093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18191.348468750002,"end":18191.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18191.871593750002,"end":18200.562218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18200.849093750003,"end":18208.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18209.387843750003,"end":18226.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18226.937843749998,"end":18232.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18233.28284375,"end":18238.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18238.632218749997,"end":18257.616593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18257.717843749997,"end":18260.991593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18261.14346875,"end":18265.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":18265.64909375,"end":18266.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18266.121593750002,"end":18280.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18280.53284375,"end":18329.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18330.02721875,"end":18331.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":18331.934093750002,"end":18332.389718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18332.33909375,"end":18364.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18365.160968750002,"end":18366.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18366.983468749997,"end":18388.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18388.24596875,"end":18406.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":18400.26096875,"end":18400.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18406.740968750004,"end":18418.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18418.671593749998,"end":18442.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18442.63409375,"end":18448.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18448.01721875,"end":18455.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18453.855968750002,"end":18466.765343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18456.23534375,"end":18456.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18464.48721875,"end":18465.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18466.832843750002,"end":18471.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18471.94596875,"end":18543.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18478.52721875,"end":18478.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18544.137218750002,"end":18544.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18544.187843749998,"end":18546.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18547.27596875,"end":18547.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18549.621593750002,"end":18570.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18571.84596875,"end":18580.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18581.53221875,"end":18589.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18590.340968750003,"end":18592.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18592.43346875,"end":18594.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18594.12096875,"end":18611.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18610.33784375,"end":18613.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18613.62846875,"end":18613.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18613.662218750003,"end":18637.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18613.982843750004,"end":18615.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18637.692218750002,"end":18648.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18648.559718750003,"end":18669.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18670.02471875,"end":18670.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18671.155343749997,"end":18685.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18686.427218750003,"end":18690.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18690.49409375,"end":18691.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18691.928468750004,"end":18695.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18695.25284375,"end":18699.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18699.89346875,"end":18713.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18713.528468750003,"end":18749.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18750.29909375,"end":18751.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18751.412843750004,"end":18767.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18767.207843750002,"end":18767.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18768.54096875,"end":18798.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":18797.802218750003,"end":18888.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18887.93159375,"end":18892.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18894.36096875,"end":18897.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18902.427218750003,"end":18904.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":18905.12721875,"end":18906.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18910.72971875,"end":18912.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18913.02471875,"end":18913.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18914.08784375,"end":18917.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18918.42471875,"end":18918.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18919.15034375,"end":18920.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18921.411593750003,"end":18922.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18923.132843749998,"end":18924.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18925.07346875,"end":18925.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18927.030968749998,"end":18927.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18927.975968749997,"end":18929.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18929.730968750002,"end":18930.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18931.114718750003,"end":18936.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18936.902843750002,"end":18938.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18939.332843750002,"end":18942.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18943.062218749998,"end":18947.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18948.209093750003,"end":18952.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18953.085968749998,"end":18953.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18954.40221875,"end":18956.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18957.42284375,"end":18959.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18959.717843750004,"end":18964.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18965.590343750002,"end":18966.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18967.34534375,"end":18969.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18969.65721875,"end":18975.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18975.529718750004,"end":18982.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18982.75221875,"end":18987.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18988.928468750004,"end":18995.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18995.999093750004,"end":18999.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19000.15034375,"end":19005.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19005.786593750003,"end":19008.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19008.739718750003,"end":19010.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19011.085343749997,"end":19012.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19013.00909375,"end":19015.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19016.215343750002,"end":19023.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19023.57284375,"end":19024.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19025.108468750004,"end":19026.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19026.762218750002,"end":19027.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19027.825343750003,"end":19028.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19029.310343750003,"end":19031.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19031.639093750004,"end":19032.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19032.921593749998,"end":19035.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19036.44846875,"end":19038.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19038.43971875,"end":19041.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19041.764093750004,"end":19044.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19044.615968750004,"end":19048.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19049.037218750003,"end":19050.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19051.63596875,"end":19056.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19056.850343750004,"end":19057.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19058.90909375,"end":19060.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19061.372843750003,"end":19064.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19064.79846875,"end":19065.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19065.84471875,"end":19068.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19068.578468749998,"end":19069.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19070.367218749998,"end":19071.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19071.85221875,"end":19073.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19073.421593749998,"end":19074.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19074.60284375,"end":19076.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19076.64471875,"end":19078.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19079.310968750004,"end":19085.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19085.48721875,"end":19087.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19088.03534375,"end":19091.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19092.86159375,"end":19097.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19098.700343750003,"end":19099.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19099.84784375,"end":19102.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19102.514093750004,"end":19103.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19103.91471875,"end":19104.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19104.505343750003,"end":19107.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19107.82971875,"end":19114.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19115.32221875,"end":19115.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19117.364093750002,"end":19117.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19118.562218749998,"end":19123.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19124.06346875,"end":19125.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19126.62846875,"end":19126.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19127.489093750002,"end":19130.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19130.560343750003,"end":19132.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19132.95659375,"end":19137.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19138.66034375,"end":19139.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19139.90909375,"end":19142.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19143.132218749997,"end":19144.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19145.39346875,"end":19148.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19151.38409375,"end":19153.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19153.324718750002,"end":19154.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19156.007843749998,"end":19157.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19157.864093750002,"end":19158.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19159.669718750003,"end":19161.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19162.420343750004,"end":19163.905343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":19164.27659375,"end":19164.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19164.850343750004,"end":19168.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19168.444718749997,"end":19171.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19171.54971875,"end":19179.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19180.240343750003,"end":19181.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19182.41721875,"end":19185.015968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19185.79221875,"end":19187.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19188.036593750003,"end":19188.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19190.21346875,"end":19191.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19192.72784375,"end":19193.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19193.655968749998,"end":19194.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19196.153468750003,"end":19197.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19197.92534375,"end":19198.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19198.920968750004,"end":19199.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19200.287843750004,"end":19201.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19202.093468749998,"end":19204.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19205.215343750002,"end":19210.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19211.29034375,"end":19213.163468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19213.467218750004,"end":19216.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19217.061593750004,"end":19217.804093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19217.804093749997,"end":19218.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19218.04034375,"end":19232.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19218.05721875,"end":19218.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19232.41784375,"end":19234.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19234.62846875,"end":19236.788468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19237.34534375,"end":19240.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19241.56409375,"end":19243.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19243.45409375,"end":19244.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19247.301593750002,"end":19247.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19247.89221875,"end":19249.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19249.107218750003,"end":19249.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19249.866593749997,"end":19255.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19255.114718750003,"end":19256.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19255.28346875,"end":19256.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19256.599718750003,"end":19256.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19256.63346875,"end":19256.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19256.819093750004,"end":19262.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19262.97846875,"end":19267.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19268.007218749997,"end":19271.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19271.09534375,"end":19287.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19288.746593750002,"end":19292.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19292.678468750004,"end":19294.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19294.51784375,"end":19294.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19295.952218750004,"end":19299.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19299.512843750003,"end":19301.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19301.520968750003,"end":19303.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19304.22096875,"end":19306.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19307.039093749998,"end":19315.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":19315.763468750003,"end":19315.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19315.84784375,"end":19319.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19320.69096875,"end":19321.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19321.61909375,"end":19324.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19324.87596875,"end":19326.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19326.91784375,"end":19329.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19329.95534375,"end":19332.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19332.452843749998,"end":19338.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19339.11846875,"end":19342.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19343.37096875,"end":19344.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19345.176593750002,"end":19345.412843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19345.80096875,"end":19347.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19347.302843750003,"end":19349.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19350.00284375,"end":19350.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19351.099718750003,"end":19353.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19353.66471875,"end":19354.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19355.48721875,"end":19356.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19357.242218749998,"end":19357.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19358.271593750003,"end":19362.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19362.709718750004,"end":19363.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19363.19909375,"end":19363.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19363.317218750002,"end":19366.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19367.40096875,"end":19373.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19373.52659375,"end":19375.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19375.467218750004,"end":19376.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19377.070343749998,"end":19386.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19386.537218750003,"end":19386.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19386.959093750003,"end":19386.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19386.99284375,"end":19388.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19389.33846875,"end":19390.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19390.334093750003,"end":19396.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19394.18159375,"end":19396.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19397.202218750004,"end":19398.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19397.37096875,"end":19397.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19397.89409375,"end":19402.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19399.02471875,"end":19399.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19402.703468749998,"end":19405.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19405.58909375,"end":19406.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19406.584718750004,"end":19414.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19415.039093749998,"end":19430.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19430.952218750004,"end":19431.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19432.724093750003,"end":19437.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19437.465968750003,"end":19437.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19438.343468749998,"end":19439.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19440.89159375,"end":19443.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19444.148468749998,"end":19446.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19446.39284375,"end":19450.358468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19450.746593750002,"end":19456.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19456.281593749998,"end":19457.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19458.559718750003,"end":19460.905343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19460.905343750004,"end":19461.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19461.17534375,"end":19462.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19462.20471875,"end":19474.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19465.78221875,"end":19468.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19468.937843749998,"end":19469.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19470.186593750004,"end":19470.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19474.793468750002,"end":19482.015968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19482.218468749998,"end":19488.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19488.79971875,"end":19489.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19490.014718750004,"end":19490.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19491.060968750004,"end":19505.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19492.630343750003,"end":19493.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19505.640968749998,"end":19506.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19506.61971875,"end":19507.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19508.49284375,"end":19509.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19510.247843750003,"end":19513.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19514.23034375,"end":19514.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19514.85471875,"end":19517.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19517.520968750003,"end":19522.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19523.764718750004,"end":19527.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19528.422218749998,"end":19532.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19532.35409375,"end":19532.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19532.37096875,"end":19532.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19533.029093750003,"end":19536.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19534.68284375,"end":19535.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19537.264718750004,"end":19538.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19538.395343750002,"end":19540.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19540.842218750004,"end":19544.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19544.841593750003,"end":19546.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19546.05659375,"end":19548.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19547.592218750004,"end":19563.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19563.06659375,"end":19567.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19567.639718750004,"end":19570.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19570.812218749998,"end":19575.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19576.00971875,"end":19587.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19587.653468750003,"end":19603.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19604.039093749998,"end":19606.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19606.334093750003,"end":19621.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19621.99409375,"end":19622.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19622.21346875,"end":19624.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19624.62659375,"end":19628.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19627.647218750004,"end":19637.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19630.56659375,"end":19630.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19635.20721875,"end":19636.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19636.87784375,"end":19637.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19637.569718749997,"end":19643.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19641.974093750003,"end":19649.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19649.871593750002,"end":19658.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19655.507843749998,"end":19656.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19658.07284375,"end":19658.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19658.663468749997,"end":19663.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19659.55784375,"end":19661.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19664.09721875,"end":19665.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19665.835343749997,"end":19678.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19666.037843750004,"end":19666.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19678.255343750003,"end":19678.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19678.272218750004,"end":19678.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19678.289093749998,"end":19679.217218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19678.457843750002,"end":19682.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19682.085968749998,"end":19696.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19697.239718750003,"end":19698.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19698.67409375,"end":19704.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19705.40721875,"end":19707.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19708.242218749998,"end":19709.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19710.739718750003,"end":19711.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19712.15721875,"end":19712.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19713.051593750002,"end":19715.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19716.224093750003,"end":19728.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19728.795968750004,"end":19736.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19728.82971875,"end":19730.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19736.42346875,"end":19744.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19744.624718749998,"end":19749.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19749.450968750003,"end":19750.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19750.37909375,"end":19753.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19752.33659375,"end":19755.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19755.52596875,"end":19761.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19762.022843749997,"end":19762.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19763.52471875,"end":19764.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19766.59596875,"end":19789.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19790.62596875,"end":19794.507218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19794.86159375,"end":19798.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19799.569718749997,"end":19800.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19800.801593750002,"end":19802.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19802.725343750004,"end":19804.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19804.530968749998,"end":19807.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19807.92284375,"end":19810.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19811.027843750002,"end":19812.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19813.44096875,"end":19814.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19814.976593749998,"end":19815.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19815.060968750004,"end":19821.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19822.215968750003,"end":19822.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19822.72221875,"end":19826.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19825.523468749998,"end":19828.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19827.278468750003,"end":19828.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19828.780343750004,"end":19829.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19829.97846875,"end":19831.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19832.374718749998,"end":19832.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19832.39159375,"end":19832.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19832.40846875,"end":19832.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19832.442218750002,"end":19835.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19835.412218750003,"end":19835.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19836.96471875,"end":19837.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19837.639718750004,"end":19842.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19842.482843750004,"end":19844.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19845.30096875,"end":19848.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19848.96284375,"end":19855.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19855.30784375,"end":19857.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19857.61971875,"end":19860.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19861.686593750004,"end":19861.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19861.85534375,"end":19862.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19862.05784375,"end":19862.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19862.310968750004,"end":19862.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19866.124718749998,"end":19869.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19869.97221875,"end":19870.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19870.90034375,"end":19870.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19870.91721875,"end":19873.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19875.389093750004,"end":19886.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19885.716593750003,"end":19889.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19888.281593749998,"end":19888.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19889.46284375,"end":19889.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":19889.58096875,"end":19889.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19889.86784375,"end":19891.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":19889.88471875,"end":19889.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19893.88409375,"end":19898.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19899.06471875,"end":19899.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19900.76909375,"end":19908.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19908.497843750003,"end":19915.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19915.93971875,"end":19923.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19924.15784375,"end":19924.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19924.967843750004,"end":19924.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19925.13659375,"end":19926.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":19927.24596875,"end":19941.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19948.710968749998,"end":19950.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19951.29284375,"end":19952.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19956.01784375,"end":19956.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19956.84471875,"end":19957.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19957.82346875,"end":19958.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19958.599718750003,"end":19960.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19961.029718750004,"end":19961.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19961.046593749998,"end":19961.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19961.50221875,"end":19961.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":19961.535968750002,"end":19961.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19961.73846875,"end":19964.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19965.40034375,"end":19969.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19970.14221875,"end":19971.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19972.47096875,"end":19979.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19979.33909375,"end":19989.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19990.07159375,"end":20009.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20009.747843750003,"end":20012.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20012.34659375,"end":20015.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20015.535968750002,"end":20017.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20017.476593749998,"end":20018.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20018.624093750004,"end":20019.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20019.60284375,"end":20023.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20023.51784375,"end":20025.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20025.340343750002,"end":20029.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20029.052843750003,"end":20029.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20029.069718749997,"end":20029.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20029.08659375,"end":20029.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20029.137218750002,"end":20033.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20029.32284375,"end":20030.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20031.584093750003,"end":20031.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20034.672218749998,"end":20035.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20035.33034375,"end":20035.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20035.34721875,"end":20037.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20038.317218750002,"end":20039.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20039.835968749998,"end":20041.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20041.64159375,"end":20042.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20042.58659375,"end":20049.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20050.247843750003,"end":20050.905968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20051.24346875,"end":20070.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20071.08846875,"end":20071.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20072.624093750004,"end":20075.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20075.880968750003,"end":20078.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20079.171593749998,"end":20082.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20083.289093749998,"end":20086.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20086.512218750002,"end":20088.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20089.11096875,"end":20102.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20103.319718749997,"end":20111.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20112.398468749998,"end":20115.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20116.482218750003,"end":20121.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20121.865343750003,"end":20128.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20129.121593750002,"end":20148.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20148.527843750002,"end":20149.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20150.40096875,"end":20152.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20152.982843750004,"end":20179.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20180.47221875,"end":20182.210343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20182.64909375,"end":20182.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20183.442218750002,"end":20213.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20214.255968750003,"end":20215.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20216.41596875,"end":20222.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20222.74409375,"end":20250.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20250.58784375,"end":20258.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20258.90721875,"end":20259.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20260.122218750003,"end":20281.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20281.18221875,"end":20282.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20282.734718749998,"end":20287.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20287.037843750004,"end":20288.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20288.168468750002,"end":20288.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20288.185343750003,"end":20290.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20290.02471875,"end":20292.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20291.594093749998,"end":20291.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20292.37034375,"end":20292.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":20292.387218750002,"end":20292.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":20292.623468750004,"end":20292.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20292.707843750002,"end":20302.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20301.75284375,"end":20306.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20306.71409375,"end":20306.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20308.030343750004,"end":20314.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":20310.780968749998,"end":20310.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20310.79784375,"end":20310.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":20310.81471875,"end":20311.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20314.662218750003,"end":20330.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20331.435968750004,"end":20334.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20334.827843749998,"end":20338.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20338.67534375,"end":20339.789093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20340.295343750004,"end":20349.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20341.341593750003,"end":20342.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20350.87596875,"end":20358.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20355.83721875,"end":20360.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20361.01784375,"end":20374.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20375.412218750003,"end":20379.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20380.52534375,"end":20385.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20386.380968750003,"end":20387.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20388.304718749998,"end":20394.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20395.10534375,"end":20406.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20407.23846875,"end":20424.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20425.56471875,"end":20426.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20426.49284375,"end":20432.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20432.905343750004,"end":20435.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20436.34784375,"end":20439.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20439.419093750003,"end":20451.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20451.80534375,"end":20467.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20467.73534375,"end":20491.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20491.81596875,"end":20493.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20494.24596875,"end":20497.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20498.00909375,"end":20499.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20499.747218750003,"end":20513.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20514.04034375,"end":20520.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20521.279718750004,"end":20523.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20524.09784375,"end":20526.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20526.71346875,"end":20531.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20531.826593750004,"end":20543.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20543.47034375,"end":20552.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20553.19034375,"end":20556.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20556.700343750003,"end":20606.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20606.44784375,"end":20607.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20608.000343749998,"end":20608.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20609.046593749998,"end":20610.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20611.324718750002,"end":20634.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":20634.71346875,"end":20635.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20635.15221875,"end":20637.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":20637.16034375,"end":20637.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20637.43034375,"end":20638.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":20638.037843750004,"end":20640.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":20642.81346875,"end":20645.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20663.029718750004,"end":20663.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20663.333468750003,"end":20664.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":20665.898468749998,"end":20666.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20670.58971875,"end":20685.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20685.35534375,"end":20686.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20686.418468750002,"end":20716.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20716.506593750004,"end":20721.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20722.44659375,"end":20726.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20726.648468749998,"end":20729.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20729.989718750003,"end":20746.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20746.59471875,"end":20751.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":20746.645343750002,"end":20747.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20751.825968750003,"end":20754.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20751.89346875,"end":20752.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20754.694718749997,"end":20768.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20769.038468749997,"end":20804.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20804.93159375,"end":20808.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20809.015343749998,"end":20810.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20810.85471875,"end":20833.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20833.92284375,"end":20836.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20837.53409375,"end":20838.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20839.137218750002,"end":20851.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20852.265968749998,"end":20854.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20855.927843750003,"end":20860.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20860.93971875,"end":20872.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20872.397843749997,"end":20876.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20876.684093750002,"end":20895.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20877.89909375,"end":20878.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20895.73596875,"end":20896.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20896.29284375,"end":20902.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20902.350968749997,"end":20903.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20903.076593750004,"end":20920.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":20909.826593750004,"end":20910.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20920.457843750002,"end":20928.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20929.06409375,"end":20944.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20945.027843750002,"end":20966.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":20964.872843750003,"end":20965.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20968.01159375,"end":20976.280343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20976.584093750003,"end":20980.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20981.27534375,"end":20990.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20991.990968750004,"end":21002.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21002.757218749997,"end":21016.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21017.590343750002,"end":21018.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21019.64909375,"end":21041.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21041.48534375,"end":21042.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21042.480968750002,"end":21078.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21079.03221875,"end":21079.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21079.80846875,"end":21088.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21089.15721875,"end":21089.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21089.984093749998,"end":21098.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21098.96159375,"end":21107.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21104.935343750003,"end":21105.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21107.871593750002,"end":21111.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21111.145343750002,"end":21118.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21119.04284375,"end":21119.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21119.43096875,"end":21126.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21126.60284375,"end":21127.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":21127.919093750003,"end":21129.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21130.93971875,"end":21136.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":21136.72784375,"end":21137.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21137.18346875,"end":21137.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21137.639093750004,"end":21155.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21151.324718750002,"end":21151.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21155.543468750002,"end":21157.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21155.61096875,"end":21156.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21157.973468750002,"end":21187.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21160.57221875,"end":21161.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21187.757843749998,"end":21193.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21193.849718750003,"end":21199.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21199.06409375,"end":21200.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21200.279093750003,"end":21200.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21200.582843750002,"end":21200.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21200.85284375,"end":21206.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21201.91596875,"end":21202.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21202.000343749998,"end":21202.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21207.19784375,"end":21215.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21215.83784375,"end":21220.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21221.187218749998,"end":21224.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21223.24596875,"end":21226.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21227.802218750003,"end":21244.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":21238.60221875,"end":21238.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21238.973468750002,"end":21239.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21243.39471875,"end":21249.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21249.46971875,"end":21250.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21251.224718750003,"end":21264.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21264.724718750003,"end":21270.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21270.81659375,"end":21288.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21288.31596875,"end":21292.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21292.73721875,"end":21295.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21295.99409375,"end":21302.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21302.929718749998,"end":21308.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21309.645968750003,"end":21314.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21314.43846875,"end":21318.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21318.35346875,"end":21318.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21319.230968750002,"end":21321.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21322.319093750004,"end":21324.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21324.630968750003,"end":21341.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21341.97846875,"end":21343.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21342.11346875,"end":21342.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21343.66596875,"end":21353.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21354.297218749998,"end":21359.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21359.61284375,"end":21381.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":21381.246593750002,"end":21381.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21382.29284375,"end":21385.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21385.24596875,"end":21387.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21387.67596875,"end":21404.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21404.466593750003,"end":21413.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21413.25846875,"end":21416.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21416.684093750002,"end":21425.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21425.52659375,"end":21437.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21437.389718750004,"end":21447.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21447.717218750004,"end":21451.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21452.155343750004,"end":21463.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21463.444718749997,"end":21477.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21478.46346875,"end":21480.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21480.99471875,"end":21482.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21482.547218749998,"end":21493.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21493.44846875,"end":21497.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21498.07221875,"end":21498.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21498.848468750002,"end":21509.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21509.76659375,"end":21521.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21521.629718750002,"end":21523.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21524.85284375,"end":21532.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21532.04159375,"end":21534.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21534.539093749998,"end":21543.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21543.97221875,"end":21551.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21551.616593749997,"end":21561.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21562.43346875,"end":21566.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21567.25971875,"end":21568.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21568.54221875,"end":21570.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21570.499718749998,"end":21577.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21577.857218750003,"end":21604.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21604.90784375,"end":21632.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21633.021593750003,"end":21639.045968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21638.67471875,"end":21638.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21639.045968750004,"end":21639.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21639.07971875,"end":21639.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21639.29909375,"end":21657.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21657.23721875,"end":21660.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21660.966593750003,"end":21662.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21662.687843749998,"end":21665.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21665.47221875,"end":21683.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21683.37659375,"end":21685.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21685.350968749997,"end":21687.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21688.270343750002,"end":21689.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":21689.09721875,"end":21706.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21689.114093750002,"end":21689.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21689.130968750003,"end":21689.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21698.732843750004,"end":21698.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21703.32284375,"end":21703.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21706.832843750002,"end":21726.053468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21727.26846875,"end":21731.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":21732.12846875,"end":21733.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21734.44034375,"end":21737.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21742.506593750004,"end":21744.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21746.421593749998,"end":21748.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21751.585343749997,"end":21767.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21767.684093750002,"end":21768.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21768.966593750003,"end":21770.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21771.092843750004,"end":21773.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":21773.590343750002,"end":21773.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21773.944718749997,"end":21775.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21775.919093750003,"end":21788.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21788.55846875,"end":21797.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21797.974718750003,"end":21804.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21805.51784375,"end":21806.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21806.715968750003,"end":21807.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21808.16721875,"end":21810.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21811.187843749998,"end":21812.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21813.246593750002,"end":21823.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21826.358468750004,"end":21829.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21830.172218749998,"end":21832.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21832.889093750004,"end":21833.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21834.576593750004,"end":21835.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21835.77471875,"end":21836.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21837.715343750002,"end":21839.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21839.976593749998,"end":21841.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21841.90034375,"end":21851.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21843.840968750003,"end":21844.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21851.873468750004,"end":21860.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21860.614718750003,"end":21869.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21865.76159375,"end":21866.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21869.372843750003,"end":21880.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21879.98721875,"end":21883.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21882.147218750004,"end":21886.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21887.226593749998,"end":21887.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21887.98596875,"end":21888.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":21888.036593750003,"end":21888.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21888.61034375,"end":21889.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21888.914093749998,"end":21888.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":21889.740968750004,"end":21889.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21890.61846875,"end":21892.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21893.77409375,"end":21895.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21896.13659375,"end":21903.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21904.01721875,"end":21904.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21905.873468750004,"end":21920.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21911.442218750002,"end":21911.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21918.07409375,"end":21918.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21925.02659375,"end":21935.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21935.57346875,"end":21940.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21940.990343750003,"end":21951.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21953.71409375,"end":21961.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21962.640968749998,"end":21963.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21964.46346875,"end":21965.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21967.61909375,"end":21968.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21969.84659375,"end":21971.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21971.888468750003,"end":21976.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21976.832843750002,"end":21991.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21990.61971875,"end":21991.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21991.56471875,"end":21994.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21995.192843750003,"end":22007.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":21997.38659375,"end":21997.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":21997.69034375,"end":21997.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":22000.50846875,"end":22000.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22007.49471875,"end":22008.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22007.764718750004,"end":22014.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22015.84784375,"end":22026.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22027.137218750002,"end":22032.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22033.14471875,"end":22034.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22035.692843750003,"end":22039.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22039.67534375,"end":22046.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22042.71284375,"end":22042.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":22042.965968750003,"end":22043.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22046.93159375,"end":22054.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22054.592843750004,"end":22067.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22058.676593750002,"end":22058.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22059.14909375,"end":22059.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22067.974718750003,"end":22071.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22071.889718750004,"end":22078.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22071.990968750004,"end":22072.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":22072.007843749998,"end":22072.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22078.926593750002,"end":22081.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22080.512843750003,"end":22082.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22082.301593750002,"end":22083.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22083.297218749998,"end":22088.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22089.591593750003,"end":22103.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22104.492218749998,"end":22108.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22108.997843750003,"end":22109.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22110.41534375,"end":22114.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22114.87034375,"end":22121.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22123.07159375,"end":22125.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22125.83909375,"end":22129.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22130.47971875,"end":22131.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22131.40784375,"end":22133.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22133.51721875,"end":22136.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22137.263468750003,"end":22140.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22141.077218750004,"end":22142.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22142.646593750003,"end":22151.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22151.55659375,"end":22151.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22151.86034375,"end":22159.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22159.97721875,"end":22168.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22168.380968750003,"end":22177.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22174.55721875,"end":22175.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22178.05034375,"end":22184.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22180.80096875,"end":22181.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22184.412218750003,"end":22186.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22185.981593750003,"end":22190.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22191.162218750003,"end":22194.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22195.31346875,"end":22196.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22197.11909375,"end":22200.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22200.966593750003,"end":22200.983468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22201.25346875,"end":22204.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22204.83096875,"end":22209.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22210.51784375,"end":22223.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22216.33971875,"end":22216.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22216.44096875,"end":22216.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22216.609718749998,"end":22216.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22224.372218750003,"end":22228.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22229.873468750004,"end":22233.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22233.771593750003,"end":22238.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22238.935343750003,"end":22241.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22242.225968749997,"end":22245.499718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22246.49534375,"end":22247.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22248.216593750003,"end":22252.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22252.874093750004,"end":22256.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22253.63346875,"end":22254.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22256.535968750002,"end":22256.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22256.552843750003,"end":22256.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22256.687843749998,"end":22258.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22256.789093749998,"end":22257.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22257.97034375,"end":22261.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22261.98659375,"end":22264.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22264.281593749998,"end":22272.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22273.07346875,"end":22275.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22276.397843749997,"end":22286.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22287.045968750004,"end":22290.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22290.437843749998,"end":22299.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22299.600968749997,"end":22304.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22304.79846875,"end":22305.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22305.86159375,"end":22310.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22311.44721875,"end":22311.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22312.645343750002,"end":22318.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22323.327218750004,"end":22327.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22327.71471875,"end":22336.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22337.434718750003,"end":22338.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22339.62846875,"end":22340.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22340.590343750002,"end":22342.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22342.952843749998,"end":22343.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22344.319718749997,"end":22347.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":22347.94784375,"end":22348.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22348.55534375,"end":22350.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22350.647843749997,"end":22354.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":22354.410968750002,"end":22354.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22354.934093750002,"end":22356.334718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22357.44846875,"end":22359.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22359.87846875,"end":22363.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22364.40096875,"end":22366.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22367.13471875,"end":22368.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22369.007843749998,"end":22369.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22370.155343750004,"end":22371.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22372.18034375,"end":22372.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22372.72034375,"end":22381.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22381.57971875,"end":22383.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22384.21221875,"end":22384.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22384.380968750003,"end":22385.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22384.44846875,"end":22385.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22385.07284375,"end":22385.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22385.241593749997,"end":22385.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22385.865968750004,"end":22396.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22385.950343750003,"end":22385.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22394.303468750004,"end":22414.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22396.76721875,"end":22397.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":22414.249718749998,"end":22414.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22414.58721875,"end":22420.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":22420.40909375,"end":22420.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":22420.645343750002,"end":22420.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22420.72971875,"end":22421.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22422.484718749998,"end":22423.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":22422.53534375,"end":22422.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22422.63659375,"end":22422.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":22422.670343750004,"end":22423.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22423.02471875,"end":22424.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22424.08784375,"end":22425.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22425.505343750003,"end":22426.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22426.73721875,"end":22427.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22427.226593749998,"end":22442.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22442.22846875,"end":22444.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22443.05534375,"end":22443.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22445.28284375,"end":22445.991593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22445.333468750003,"end":22456.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22455.677843750003,"end":22477.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22460.14971875,"end":22461.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22477.935968750004,"end":22482.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22483.47096875,"end":22486.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22488.297218749998,"end":22491.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22495.70534375,"end":22498.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22498.87784375,"end":22499.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22499.687843749998,"end":22500.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22502.185343750003,"end":22502.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":22507.146593750003,"end":22507.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22507.72034375,"end":22507.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22507.905968749998,"end":22554.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22555.763468750003,"end":22556.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22557.434093750002,"end":22558.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22560.26909375,"end":22562.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22561.669718750003,"end":22563.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22564.234718749998,"end":22568.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22568.537843750004,"end":22571.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22570.090343750002,"end":22570.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22571.42346875,"end":22572.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22572.520343750002,"end":22574.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22575.085343749997,"end":22579.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22579.87784375,"end":22585.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22585.429718749998,"end":22590.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22590.475343750004,"end":22599.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22599.06471875,"end":22605.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22605.764093750004,"end":22607.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22608.278468750003,"end":22608.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22608.295343750004,"end":22608.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22608.32909375,"end":22615.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22615.43346875,"end":22616.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22616.310968750004,"end":22618.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22618.03221875,"end":22620.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22620.293468750002,"end":22622.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22622.217218750004,"end":22679.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22679.811593750004,"end":22687.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":22687.75971875,"end":22687.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22687.945343749998,"end":22687.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22688.333468750003,"end":22700.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22700.922218749998,"end":22703.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22704.61784375,"end":22706.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22704.668468750002,"end":22705.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22706.84534375,"end":22722.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22722.16784375,"end":22723.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22723.92284375,"end":22731.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22731.44909375,"end":22782.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22780.79159375,"end":22793.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22793.599718750003,"end":22841.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22795.185968750004,"end":22795.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22841.271593750003,"end":22842.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22842.216593750003,"end":22843.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22842.80721875,"end":22844.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22844.07284375,"end":22851.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22844.849093750003,"end":22845.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22851.76784375,"end":22852.358468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22853.35409375,"end":22855.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22855.615343750003,"end":22858.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22857.809093750002,"end":22861.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22861.03221875,"end":22873.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22873.739093750002,"end":22878.835343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22879.51034375,"end":22880.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22881.130343750003,"end":22882.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22882.699718750002,"end":22886.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22885.95659375,"end":22900.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22889.280968749998,"end":22889.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22889.348468750002,"end":22889.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22897.65096875,"end":22898.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22898.89971875,"end":22901.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22901.835968749998,"end":22949.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22929.679718749998,"end":22930.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22949.592218750004,"end":22950.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22949.929718749998,"end":22957.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22951.41471875,"end":22952.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":22954.030343750004,"end":22954.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":22957.65846875,"end":22999.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23000.67284375,"end":23009.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":23009.194718749997,"end":23009.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23009.43096875,"end":23027.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":23009.44784375,"end":23009.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23027.28471875,"end":23027.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23028.41534375,"end":23047.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23046.825968750003,"end":23055.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23056.309718750003,"end":23056.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23056.90034375,"end":23056.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23056.91721875,"end":23060.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23056.967843750004,"end":23057.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":23057.20409375,"end":23057.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23060.629718750002,"end":23066.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23066.856593750003,"end":23095.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23096.421593749998,"end":23114.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23114.61284375,"end":23114.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23115.203468749998,"end":23121.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23121.599093750003,"end":23125.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23126.32409375,"end":23131.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23132.044718750003,"end":23135.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23134.12034375,"end":23140.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23138.811593750004,"end":23138.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23139.452843749998,"end":23140.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23140.583468750003,"end":23142.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23143.16534375,"end":23150.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23150.708468750003,"end":23155.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23155.872218750003,"end":23156.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23156.817218750002,"end":23156.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23156.817218750002,"end":23156.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23156.969093749998,"end":23157.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":23157.171593749998,"end":23157.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23157.44159375,"end":23157.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23159.871593750002,"end":23168.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23169.10221875,"end":23174.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23178.53534375,"end":23178.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23178.552218750003,"end":23183.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23184.52596875,"end":23185.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23189.014718750004,"end":23189.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23189.08221875,"end":23189.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23189.976593749998,"end":23205.467843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23206.007843749998,"end":23209.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23210.26034375,"end":23228.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23229.12659375,"end":23260.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23261.779718750004,"end":23262.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23262.387218750002,"end":23262.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23262.89346875,"end":23278.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23278.249718749998,"end":23280.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23280.578468749998,"end":23281.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23281.96221875,"end":23287.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23288.08784375,"end":23292.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23291.395343750002,"end":23300.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23297.38596875,"end":23298.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23298.76971875,"end":23299.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23300.710343750005,"end":23308.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23308.084718750004,"end":23365.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23317.60221875,"end":23318.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":23318.24346875,"end":23318.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":23318.327843749998,"end":23318.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23318.36159375,"end":23318.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23318.530343750004,"end":23320.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":23362.43909375,"end":23362.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23365.139093750004,"end":23369.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23369.273468749998,"end":23369.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23369.695343749998,"end":23370.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23370.184718750003,"end":23378.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23379.01034375,"end":23440.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23385.43971875,"end":23385.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23386.30034375,"end":23386.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23386.350968750005,"end":23386.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":23386.452218750004,"end":23388.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23440.958468750003,"end":23449.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23449.80096875,"end":23450.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23451.16784375,"end":23455.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23457.88409375,"end":23466.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23460.297218749998,"end":23461.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23462.085968749998,"end":23462.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":23462.96346875,"end":23463.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23463.030968749998,"end":23464.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23464.02659375,"end":23465.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23466.96284375,"end":23499.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23499.379718750002,"end":23519.224718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23519.81534375,"end":23520.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23522.22846875,"end":23528.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23529.670343750004,"end":23600.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23601.23721875,"end":23611.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23612.18909375,"end":23635.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23635.59471875,"end":23653.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23654.25846875,"end":23656.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23657.076593750004,"end":23658.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23660.114093750002,"end":23661.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23661.615968750004,"end":23708.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23708.764718750004,"end":23720.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23720.52659375,"end":23726.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23726.685968750004,"end":23731.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23731.91721875,"end":23734.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23734.12784375,"end":23738.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23738.54909375,"end":23746.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23747.256593750004,"end":23754.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23755.170968750004,"end":23760.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23760.89159375,"end":23776.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23776.484093749998,"end":23794.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23795.50221875,"end":23816.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23816.781593749998,"end":23823.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23824.52721875,"end":23834.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23835.090968750003,"end":23837.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23837.453468749998,"end":23843.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23844.11909375,"end":23849.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23849.82284375,"end":23859.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23860.04909375,"end":23866.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23868.04784375,"end":23869.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23869.12784375,"end":23872.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23873.88659375,"end":23878.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23879.43846875,"end":23884.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23884.973468750002,"end":23890.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23890.33971875,"end":23897.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23899.19909375,"end":23899.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23899.232843750004,"end":23899.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23899.249718749998,"end":23901.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23900.21159375,"end":23904.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23904.58221875,"end":23909.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23909.340968750003,"end":23920.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23920.410968750002,"end":23925.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23923.600343750004,"end":23933.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23932.982843750004,"end":23936.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23936.054093750005,"end":23947.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23948.11971875,"end":23952.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23953.654718750004,"end":23953.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23954.177843750003,"end":23959.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23960.55659375,"end":23967.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23967.390968749998,"end":23972.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23973.786593750003,"end":23985.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23982.257843749998,"end":23987.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23986.240343750003,"end":23988.467843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23989.007843749998,"end":23995.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23995.87596875,"end":23999.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24000.145343750002,"end":24002.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24003.48659375,"end":24004.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24005.37659375,"end":24007.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24007.890968749998,"end":24014.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24015.265343749998,"end":24018.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24018.842843750004,"end":24025.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24026.67284375,"end":24029.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24029.20409375,"end":24029.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24029.86221875,"end":24032.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24033.32159375,"end":24038.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24038.73846875,"end":24044.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24044.71221875,"end":24052.491593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24052.86284375,"end":24054.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24054.87096875,"end":24055.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24055.107218750003,"end":24058.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24057.36846875,"end":24059.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24058.76909375,"end":24064.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24064.692218750002,"end":24069.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24069.855968750002,"end":24071.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24073.41659375,"end":24074.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24074.327843749998,"end":24077.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24076.97721875,"end":24081.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24081.97221875,"end":24089.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24087.01784375,"end":24090.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24091.75971875,"end":24093.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24094.52721875,"end":24094.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24095.202218750004,"end":24099.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24099.927218750003,"end":24112.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24111.70596875,"end":24114.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24113.967218750004,"end":24115.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24114.33846875,"end":24114.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24115.452218750004,"end":24118.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24118.405343750004,"end":24119.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24120.16034375,"end":24122.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24122.69159375,"end":24122.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24122.910968750002,"end":24122.944718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24123.51846875,"end":24125.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24125.779718750004,"end":24126.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24127.60221875,"end":24128.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24129.340343750002,"end":24134.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24134.70659375,"end":24135.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24135.83721875,"end":24136.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24137.710343750005,"end":24141.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24142.51971875,"end":24151.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24153.23534375,"end":24157.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24157.234718749998,"end":24162.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24163.005968750003,"end":24165.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24166.85346875,"end":24175.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24176.809718750003,"end":24179.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24180.13409375,"end":24181.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24182.66534375,"end":24194.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24195.55784375,"end":24213.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24213.614093750002,"end":24218.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24218.710343750005,"end":24232.412843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24233.273468749998,"end":24240.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24241.86284375,"end":24243.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24243.21284375,"end":24243.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24243.584093750003,"end":24244.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24244.529093750003,"end":24247.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":24248.49471875,"end":24248.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24249.810968750004,"end":24250.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24250.030343750004,"end":24253.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24282.78471875,"end":24285.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24562.099718750003,"end":24566.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24571.600343750004,"end":24575.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24580.30784375,"end":24580.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24580.51034375,"end":24580.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24580.52721875,"end":24580.577843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24580.577843749998,"end":24580.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24580.881593750004,"end":24580.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24580.898468749998,"end":24580.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24580.965968750003,"end":24581.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24581.01659375,"end":24581.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24582.147218750004,"end":24582.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24588.559718750003,"end":24614.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24615.272843750005,"end":24616.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24617.23034375,"end":24620.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24620.92596875,"end":24621.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24621.53346875,"end":24621.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24621.567218750002,"end":24621.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24622.107218750003,"end":24624.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24625.937843749998,"end":24637.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24638.239718750003,"end":24639.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24639.707843750002,"end":24641.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24641.648468749998,"end":24653.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24653.747843750003,"end":24659.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24659.012843750003,"end":24673.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24673.609718749998,"end":24677.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24676.68096875,"end":24684.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24677.84534375,"end":24678.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24683.85284375,"end":24689.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24689.45534375,"end":24689.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24689.57346875,"end":24695.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24695.412218750003,"end":24709.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24710.32971875,"end":24718.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24719.273468749998,"end":24719.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24720.640343749998,"end":24728.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24728.58846875,"end":24729.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24729.97221875,"end":24738.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":24735.64221875,"end":24735.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":24738.038468750005,"end":24738.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24738.20721875,"end":24759.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":24738.240968750004,"end":24738.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":24758.30534375,"end":24758.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24759.115343750003,"end":24766.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24768.059093750002,"end":24776.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24776.80034375,"end":24784.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24785.76096875,"end":24797.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24797.33721875,"end":24798.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24798.974093750003,"end":24805.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24805.319093750004,"end":24815.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24815.950343750003,"end":24821.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24820.793468750002,"end":24821.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24821.147843750005,"end":24860.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24823.544093750003,"end":24825.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24825.95721875,"end":24825.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24839.01846875,"end":24839.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":24839.10284375,"end":24839.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24839.676593750002,"end":24839.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24861.27659375,"end":24865.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24865.512218750002,"end":24869.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24866.62596875,"end":24866.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24866.676593750002,"end":24866.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":24866.76096875,"end":24866.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24866.794718750003,"end":24866.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24868.12784375,"end":24878.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24880.598468750002,"end":24880.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24880.66596875,"end":24882.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24882.87659375,"end":24884.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24883.382843749998,"end":24883.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24884.56409375,"end":24888.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24886.36971875,"end":24893.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24893.069093750004,"end":24893.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24893.389718750004,"end":24893.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24894.16596875,"end":24895.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24894.28409375,"end":24894.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24895.87034375,"end":24895.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24895.97159375,"end":24901.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24902.83971875,"end":24903.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24903.953468749998,"end":24904.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24904.797218749998,"end":24906.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24906.974093750003,"end":24913.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24913.89284375,"end":24926.937218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24915.78284375,"end":24915.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24916.390343749998,"end":24916.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24916.474718750003,"end":24916.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24916.52534375,"end":24918.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24918.02721875,"end":24918.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24918.97221875,"end":24920.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24926.14409375,"end":24935.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24935.64471875,"end":24938.007218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24936.97784375,"end":24937.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24937.889093750004,"end":24947.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24938.007218750005,"end":24938.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24947.490968750004,"end":24953.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24953.498468750004,"end":24960.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24960.70409375,"end":24970.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24964.905968749998,"end":24965.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24965.02409375,"end":24965.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24965.36159375,"end":24965.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24970.677218750003,"end":24971.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24971.99346875,"end":24978.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24972.01034375,"end":24973.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24973.832843750002,"end":24973.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24979.452218750004,"end":24985.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24981.004718750002,"end":24981.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24986.47221875,"end":24986.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24986.75909375,"end":24988.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":24989.880968750003,"end":24989.897843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":24989.897843750005,"end":25013.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24998.554718749998,"end":25000.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25000.68096875,"end":25002.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":25009.43909375,"end":25009.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25014.670343750004,"end":25019.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25020.812843749998,"end":25030.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25026.077843749998,"end":25026.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25026.11159375,"end":25026.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25026.921593749998,"end":25027.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25030.937843749998,"end":25033.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25033.654718750004,"end":25038.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25033.72221875,"end":25035.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25039.037843750004,"end":25066.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":25056.638468750003,"end":25057.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25057.97159375,"end":25059.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":25059.11909375,"end":25060.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25067.640968749998,"end":25072.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25073.44596875,"end":25079.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25079.520968750003,"end":25105.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25106.318468750003,"end":25113.085343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":25113.32159375,"end":25113.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25113.64221875,"end":25116.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25117.35471875,"end":25120.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25120.965968750003,"end":25126.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":25121.23596875,"end":25122.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25128.593468749998,"end":25132.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25132.74471875,"end":25135.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25140.01784375,"end":25143.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25144.911593750003,"end":25146.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25148.826593750004,"end":25149.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25149.41721875,"end":25151.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25151.880968750003,"end":25194.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25195.030343750004,"end":25196.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25197.07221875,"end":25200.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25199.130968750003,"end":25204.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25200.919718750003,"end":25201.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25203.70409375,"end":25204.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25204.733468750004,"end":25207.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25207.973468750002,"end":25248.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25248.726593749998,"end":25268.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25252.67534375,"end":25253.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25266.647843750005,"end":25307.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25307.70471875,"end":25315.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25310.742218749998,"end":25310.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25315.467218750004,"end":25329.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25330.70534375,"end":25367.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25368.522218750004,"end":25369.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25369.281593749998,"end":25371.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25369.33221875,"end":25369.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25369.51784375,"end":25370.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25370.02409375,"end":25370.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25371.42471875,"end":25385.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25385.515343749998,"end":25391.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25391.25284375,"end":25431.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25431.465968750003,"end":25482.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25483.778468750003,"end":25518.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25519.58721875,"end":25533.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25534.45409375,"end":25536.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25536.98534375,"end":25543.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25540.37721875,"end":25541.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25543.060343750003,"end":25570.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25568.98034375,"end":25589.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25590.25971875,"end":25607.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25606.223468750002,"end":25612.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25609.851593749998,"end":25612.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25612.365968750004,"end":25635.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25634.489093750002,"end":25634.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25635.51846875,"end":25657.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25644.715343750002,"end":25644.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25644.833468750003,"end":25645.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25655.54909375,"end":25656.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25656.882218750005,"end":25668.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25668.42471875,"end":25675.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25671.98534375,"end":25672.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25675.36034375,"end":25677.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25677.04784375,"end":25679.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":25679.05596875,"end":25679.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25679.325968750003,"end":25681.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25682.11034375,"end":25701.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25707.574718750002,"end":25709.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25709.295968750004,"end":25710.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25711.77659375,"end":25712.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25716.653468750003,"end":25717.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25717.48034375,"end":25719.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25720.028468750003,"end":25722.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25722.779093750003,"end":25724.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25725.47909375,"end":25728.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25728.600968750005,"end":25730.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25730.490968750004,"end":25732.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25732.33034375,"end":25733.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25733.325968750003,"end":25736.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25736.194718750005,"end":25738.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25739.90721875,"end":25743.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25744.22721875,"end":25745.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25746.65721875,"end":25749.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25749.593468749998,"end":25755.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25755.43221875,"end":25783.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25768.84784375,"end":25772.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25781.26784375,"end":25783.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25783.748468750004,"end":25783.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25783.81596875,"end":25783.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25783.866593750005,"end":25784.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25784.895968750003,"end":25793.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25793.687843749998,"end":25794.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25794.97034375,"end":25795.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25795.29096875,"end":25797.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25795.442843750003,"end":25802.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25802.88471875,"end":25809.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25809.280343750004,"end":25810.849718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25811.592218750004,"end":25812.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25814.224718750003,"end":25815.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25816.08096875,"end":25816.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25816.857218750003,"end":25817.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25817.684093750002,"end":25818.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25818.89909375,"end":25821.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25822.139093750004,"end":25823.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25824.164093749998,"end":25826.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25827.55596875,"end":25832.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25832.61846875,"end":25833.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25832.75346875,"end":25839.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25838.254718750002,"end":25844.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25845.17346875,"end":25846.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25847.114093750002,"end":25848.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25849.27409375,"end":25859.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25859.685968750004,"end":25860.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25860.546593749998,"end":25861.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25861.997843750003,"end":25863.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25863.719093749998,"end":25863.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25863.73596875,"end":25863.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":25863.989093750002,"end":25864.022843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25864.25909375,"end":25872.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25872.156593749998,"end":25873.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25873.810343750003,"end":25876.577843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25876.122218750003,"end":25876.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25876.577843749998,"end":25876.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25876.91534375,"end":25877.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25877.168468750002,"end":25877.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25877.303468750004,"end":25877.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25877.33721875,"end":25877.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25877.489093750002,"end":25878.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25878.09659375,"end":25878.366593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25878.80534375,"end":25882.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25882.73721875,"end":25892.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25893.14909375,"end":25894.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25894.97159375,"end":25895.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25895.51159375,"end":25895.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25895.57909375,"end":25895.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25895.89971875,"end":25895.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25895.967218750004,"end":25896.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25896.54096875,"end":25896.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25896.810968750004,"end":25896.827843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25897.570343749998,"end":25898.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25897.890968749998,"end":25898.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25899.39284375,"end":25906.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25907.020343750002,"end":25909.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25910.14221875,"end":25914.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25913.989718750003,"end":25924.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25918.88346875,"end":25919.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25919.03534375,"end":25920.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25921.34721875,"end":25922.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25925.312843749998,"end":25925.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25925.32971875,"end":25927.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25927.489718750003,"end":25930.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25931.57346875,"end":25932.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25932.990968750004,"end":25933.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25933.86846875,"end":25935.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25936.72034375,"end":25940.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25941.07409375,"end":25948.397843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25948.819718750005,"end":25952.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25953.40971875,"end":25957.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25958.168468750002,"end":25964.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25964.209718750004,"end":25964.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25965.137843750003,"end":25965.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25965.154718750004,"end":25990.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25965.374093750004,"end":25965.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25967.82096875,"end":25967.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25968.006593750004,"end":25968.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25973.355968750002,"end":25973.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25977.76034375,"end":25977.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":25977.96284375,"end":25977.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25977.996593750002,"end":25978.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25979.00909375,"end":25979.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25979.02596875,"end":25980.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25985.185343750003,"end":25985.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":25989.65721875,"end":25990.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25990.484093749998,"end":25990.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25990.686593750004,"end":25999.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":25999.967843750004,"end":26000.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26000.01846875,"end":26000.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26000.389718750004,"end":26000.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26000.72721875,"end":26000.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26000.76096875,"end":26004.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26003.140343749998,"end":26004.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26004.65909375,"end":26004.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26004.692843750003,"end":26004.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26004.726593749998,"end":26004.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26004.74346875,"end":26004.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26004.77721875,"end":26004.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26004.86159375,"end":26005.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26004.996593750002,"end":26007.561593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26007.79784375,"end":26007.882218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":26007.882218750005,"end":26007.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26007.966593750003,"end":26008.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26008.287218750003,"end":26012.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26012.607218750003,"end":26016.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26012.67471875,"end":26014.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26017.73721875,"end":26018.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26018.817218750002,"end":26019.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26020.57221875,"end":26021.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26022.192218750002,"end":26023.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26024.402843750002,"end":26025.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26026.91721875,"end":26028.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26028.90846875,"end":26030.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26031.22034375,"end":26033.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26035.11846875,"end":26036.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26037.22784375,"end":26037.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26037.88596875,"end":26040.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26040.53534375,"end":26040.585968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26040.585968749998,"end":26040.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26040.61971875,"end":26040.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26040.63659375,"end":26042.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26040.92346875,"end":26046.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26046.998468750004,"end":26047.116593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26047.116593750005,"end":26047.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26047.184093750002,"end":26047.335968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26047.335968749998,"end":26047.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26047.47096875,"end":26047.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26047.48784375,"end":26047.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26047.605968750002,"end":26047.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26047.639718750004,"end":26047.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26047.740968750004,"end":26047.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26047.97721875,"end":26048.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26048.027843750002,"end":26048.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26048.97284375,"end":26049.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26049.04034375,"end":26049.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26049.107843750004,"end":26049.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26049.310343750003,"end":26049.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26049.344093749998,"end":26049.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26049.46221875,"end":26049.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26049.66471875,"end":26049.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26049.68159375,"end":26049.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26049.749093750004,"end":26049.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26049.78284375,"end":26049.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26049.951593750004,"end":26050.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26050.035968750002,"end":26050.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26050.187843749998,"end":26050.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26050.96409375,"end":26051.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26051.031593749998,"end":26051.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26051.60534375,"end":26052.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26052.465968750003,"end":26052.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26052.63471875,"end":26052.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26052.97221875,"end":26053.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26053.03971875,"end":26054.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26054.87909375,"end":26070.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26064.02534375,"end":26064.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26064.194093750004,"end":26064.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26064.32909375,"end":26064.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26065.037843750004,"end":26066.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26068.96971875,"end":26070.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26071.484093749998,"end":26071.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26071.50096875,"end":26071.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26071.61909375,"end":26072.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26071.72034375,"end":26077.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26076.310343750003,"end":26077.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26077.390343749998,"end":26077.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26077.40721875,"end":26077.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26077.474718750003,"end":26077.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26077.795343750004,"end":26081.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26080.07346875,"end":26080.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26081.52471875,"end":26081.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26081.777843750002,"end":26082.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26082.68909375,"end":26093.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26086.60409375,"end":26088.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26092.358468750004,"end":26092.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26092.459718750004,"end":26092.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26092.61159375,"end":26093.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26093.826593750004,"end":26094.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26094.029093750003,"end":26094.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26094.19784375,"end":26094.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26094.60284375,"end":26097.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26094.63659375,"end":26096.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26096.91471875,"end":26097.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26097.67409375,"end":26098.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26098.01159375,"end":26099.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26098.045343750004,"end":26099.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26099.80034375,"end":26099.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26099.969093749998,"end":26100.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26100.036593750003,"end":26101.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26100.357218750003,"end":26100.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26101.16721875,"end":26102.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26101.77471875,"end":26108.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26108.96346875,"end":26110.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26111.309093750002,"end":26112.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26113.51971875,"end":26114.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26114.02596875,"end":26114.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26114.97096875,"end":26115.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26115.122843750003,"end":26132.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26117.789093749998,"end":26118.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":26118.97034375,"end":26119.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26119.10534375,"end":26119.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":26119.139093750004,"end":26119.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26121.07971875,"end":26121.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26125.585343750005,"end":26127.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26131.76159375,"end":26147.944718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26132.77409375,"end":26132.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26146.864718750003,"end":26155.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26153.56409375,"end":26164.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26157.647843750005,"end":26157.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":26157.968468749998,"end":26158.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26158.170968750004,"end":26158.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26164.380968750003,"end":26167.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26164.97159375,"end":26166.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26167.36784375,"end":26176.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26170.270343750002,"end":26171.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26172.98721875,"end":26173.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26176.12596875,"end":26178.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26176.98659375,"end":26177.897843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26178.117218749998,"end":26178.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26179.973468750002,"end":26189.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26181.762218750002,"end":26181.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26181.86346875,"end":26184.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26186.436593750004,"end":26187.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26189.693468750003,"end":26189.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26189.96346875,"end":26195.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26196.004718750002,"end":26199.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26199.58221875,"end":26199.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26199.632843749998,"end":26200.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26200.42596875,"end":26200.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26201.11784375,"end":26205.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26201.45534375,"end":26201.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26205.97784375,"end":26205.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26205.99471875,"end":26209.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26209.757843749998,"end":26211.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26211.715343750002,"end":26215.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26217.233468750004,"end":26218.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26219.849093750003,"end":26221.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26221.82346875,"end":26230.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26223.443468750003,"end":26224.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26227.39221875,"end":26230.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26230.88534375,"end":26235.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26230.90221875,"end":26231.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26232.707843750002,"end":26232.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26234.614718750003,"end":26235.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26235.272843750005,"end":26235.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26235.42471875,"end":26236.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26236.437218749998,"end":26236.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26236.48784375,"end":26239.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26239.035968750002,"end":26239.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26239.23846875,"end":26239.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26239.255343750003,"end":26239.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26239.272218750004,"end":26239.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26239.289093749998,"end":26239.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26239.373468750004,"end":26239.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26239.74471875,"end":26253.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26240.38596875,"end":26241.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26242.07346875,"end":26242.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26253.480968750002,"end":26256.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26255.99534375,"end":26257.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26256.974093750003,"end":26257.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26257.78409375,"end":26260.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26260.905968749998,"end":26265.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26262.779093750003,"end":26263.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26265.006593750004,"end":26265.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26265.07409375,"end":26266.812218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26266.20471875,"end":26266.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26266.93034375,"end":26266.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26267.318468750003,"end":26267.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26267.36909375,"end":26267.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26267.38596875,"end":26267.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26267.402843750002,"end":26267.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26267.77409375,"end":26268.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26267.79096875,"end":26270.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26269.71471875,"end":26270.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26270.87909375,"end":26277.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26277.764093750004,"end":26279.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26279.90721875,"end":26281.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26281.645343750002,"end":26283.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26283.670343750004,"end":26285.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26286.26909375,"end":26286.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26286.91034375,"end":26289.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26289.30659375,"end":26289.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26290.200968750003,"end":26292.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26292.023468749998,"end":26297.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26295.09471875,"end":26296.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26297.187218749998,"end":26298.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26299.56659375,"end":26301.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26299.83659375,"end":26300.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26302.28346875,"end":26306.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26305.99596875,"end":26320.812218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26317.06596875,"end":26317.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26318.11221875,"end":26318.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26318.922218749998,"end":26319.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26319.310343750003,"end":26323.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26323.27596875,"end":26333.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26329.249718749998,"end":26329.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26334.76784375,"end":26338.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26338.328468749998,"end":26338.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26338.66596875,"end":26344.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26344.859093749998,"end":26345.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26345.669093750003,"end":26345.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26345.685968750004,"end":26345.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26345.787218750003,"end":26345.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26345.97284375,"end":26346.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26346.05721875,"end":26346.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26346.124718749998,"end":26346.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26346.14159375,"end":26346.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26346.293468750002,"end":26346.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26346.310343750003,"end":26346.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26346.968468749998,"end":26347.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26347.30596875,"end":26347.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26347.66034375,"end":26352.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26352.90846875,"end":26352.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26352.959093750003,"end":26353.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26353.02659375,"end":26353.077218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26353.077218750004,"end":26353.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26353.094093749998,"end":26353.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26353.380968750003,"end":26353.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26353.937843749998,"end":26358.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26359.01721875,"end":26360.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26361.278468750003,"end":26364.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26362.51034375,"end":26367.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26367.03284375,"end":26367.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26367.522218750004,"end":26367.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26367.58971875,"end":26367.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26367.97784375,"end":26368.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26368.028468750003,"end":26368.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26368.21409375,"end":26368.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26368.92284375,"end":26368.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26368.973468750002,"end":26369.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26368.990343750003,"end":26370.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26370.64409375,"end":26373.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26374.255343750003,"end":26374.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26374.812218749998,"end":26383.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26384.414093749998,"end":26387.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26387.991593750005,"end":26389.679093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26389.797218749998,"end":26391.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26392.02471875,"end":26392.632218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26393.138468750003,"end":26393.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26394.083468750003,"end":26399.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26400.192218750002,"end":26401.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26402.099093750003,"end":26402.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26403.297218749998,"end":26409.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26409.03471875,"end":26414.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26414.569718750005,"end":26415.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26415.16034375,"end":26417.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26418.231593750003,"end":26419.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26419.851593749998,"end":26419.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26419.86846875,"end":26420.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26420.30721875,"end":26420.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26420.83034375,"end":26423.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26423.192843750003,"end":26424.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26423.27721875,"end":26424.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26424.62721875,"end":26428.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26428.94721875,"end":26428.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26428.96409375,"end":26430.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26429.04846875,"end":26431.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26431.225343750004,"end":26433.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26433.115343750003,"end":26438.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26438.295968750004,"end":26448.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26448.57284375,"end":26452.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26453.51721875,"end":26453.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26453.53409375,"end":26453.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":26453.601593749998,"end":26453.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26455.40721875,"end":26455.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26456.318468750003,"end":26463.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26463.709718750004,"end":26466.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26476.41659375,"end":26477.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26477.80034375,"end":26479.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26480.61846875,"end":26481.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26485.27596875,"end":26485.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26485.309718750003,"end":26485.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26486.65971875,"end":26497.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26498.219093749998,"end":26502.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26503.028468750003,"end":26507.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26507.71971875,"end":26509.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26509.710968749998,"end":26519.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26519.95409375,"end":26528.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26528.796593749998,"end":26529.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26530.163468750005,"end":26547.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26547.426593750002,"end":26578.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26567.288468750005,"end":26568.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26576.73846875,"end":26577.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26578.52721875,"end":26584.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26584.33221875,"end":26587.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26588.061593750004,"end":26591.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26592.01034375,"end":26595.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26595.857843750004,"end":26602.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26602.506593750004,"end":26603.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26603.974718750003,"end":26639.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26639.429093750005,"end":26643.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26643.88409375,"end":26653.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26653.78971875,"end":26653.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26653.80659375,"end":26667.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26665.60221875,"end":26666.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26666.429093750005,"end":26689.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26689.750343749998,"end":26690.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26690.239718750003,"end":26698.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26698.84596875,"end":26710.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26711.73846875,"end":26714.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26711.755343750003,"end":26712.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26715.07971875,"end":26715.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26716.514093750004,"end":26735.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26717.256593750004,"end":26719.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26719.905968749998,"end":26720.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26735.85284375,"end":26748.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26749.116593750005,"end":26758.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26758.904093750003,"end":26764.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26763.443468750003,"end":26765.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26765.333468750003,"end":26768.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26769.248468750004,"end":26778.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":26772.387218750002,"end":26772.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26778.951593750004,"end":26780.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26780.622218750003,"end":26782.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26782.934093750002,"end":26783.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26783.13659375,"end":26783.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26783.33909375,"end":26783.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26783.45721875,"end":26787.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26787.996593750002,"end":26791.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26791.709093750003,"end":26799.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26799.37034375,"end":26800.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26800.63596875,"end":26805.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26805.88409375,"end":26815.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26816.076593750004,"end":26817.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26818.000343749998,"end":26819.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26818.709093750003,"end":26822.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26822.624093750004,"end":26841.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26822.65784375,"end":26822.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26842.452218750004,"end":26852.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26854.07909375,"end":26872.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26872.25346875,"end":26876.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26877.029093750003,"end":26885.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26885.83784375,"end":26889.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26889.989093750002,"end":26894.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26894.106593750003,"end":26894.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26894.69721875,"end":26896.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26897.684093750002,"end":26897.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26897.97096875,"end":26900.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26901.88596875,"end":26902.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26903.75909375,"end":26904.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26905.193468750003,"end":26909.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26914.96409375,"end":26914.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26914.980968750002,"end":26916.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26917.39409375,"end":26918.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26925.426593750002,"end":26925.443468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26925.443468750003,"end":26942.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26943.263468750003,"end":26943.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26943.85409375,"end":26963.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":26963.24346875,"end":26963.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26963.27721875,"end":26991.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26991.96471875,"end":27006.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27006.426593750002,"end":27015.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27015.944093750004,"end":27020.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27020.280968749998,"end":27030.203468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27030.42284375,"end":27031.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27031.50284375,"end":27036.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27036.919718750003,"end":27039.889718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27040.14284375,"end":27043.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27043.53471875,"end":27045.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27044.37846875,"end":27044.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27045.897218750004,"end":27050.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27051.600968750005,"end":27107.710343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27107.811593750004,"end":27115.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27115.607843750004,"end":27159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27160.25909375,"end":27217.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27218.25846875,"end":27222.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27222.342218750004,"end":27222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27222.848468750002,"end":27222.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27222.91596875,"end":27223.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27222.966593750003,"end":27295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27226.797218749998,"end":27227.100968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27227.809718750003,"end":27227.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27295.19159375,"end":27302.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27296.069093750004,"end":27296.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27300.372218750003,"end":27300.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27302.66721875,"end":27302.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27302.75159375,"end":27311.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27303.19034375,"end":27303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27311.50971875,"end":27323.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":27319.677218750003,"end":27320.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27324.04784375,"end":27328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27324.098468750002,"end":27324.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27327.473468750002,"end":27334.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27331.287218750003,"end":27333.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27334.459718750004,"end":27339.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27336.248468750004,"end":27336.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27336.95721875,"end":27338.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27339.16784375,"end":27347.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27347.959718750004,"end":27358.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27358.945343749998,"end":27361.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27362.01659375,"end":27370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27371.247218750003,"end":27381.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27381.608468750004,"end":27392.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27392.62784375,"end":27394.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27394.804718749998,"end":27451.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27395.26034375,"end":27395.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":27403.444718750005,"end":27404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":27444.82221875,"end":27445.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":27451.724093750003,"end":27451.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27451.757843749998,"end":27453.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27455.16659375,"end":27455.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27455.99346875,"end":27456.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27456.61784375,"end":27457.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27457.309718750003,"end":27459.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27461.039093749998,"end":27461.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27461.05596875,"end":27462.085343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27462.23721875,"end":27489.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27503.24346875,"end":27505.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27505.724093750003,"end":27506.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27511.81596875,"end":27512.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27512.74409375,"end":27517.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27517.874093750004,"end":27518.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27519.780968749998,"end":27520.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27521.48534375,"end":27522.413468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27523.00409375,"end":27525.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27525.248468750004,"end":27527.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27527.40846875,"end":27527.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27528.25221875,"end":27529.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27529.75409375,"end":27533.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27535.289093749998,"end":27536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27537.87096875,"end":27541.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27542.224718750003,"end":27544.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27544.469093749998,"end":27544.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27544.94159375,"end":27548.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27546.139718750004,"end":27546.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27548.974718750003,"end":27553.311593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27553.733468750004,"end":27575.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27576.379718750002,"end":27579.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27579.80534375,"end":27584.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27585.52596875,"end":27603.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27603.68346875,"end":27606.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27607.176593750002,"end":27609.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27609.91034375,"end":27610.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27610.75409375,"end":27617.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27611.46284375,"end":27612.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27617.92596875,"end":27619.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27619.512218750002,"end":27624.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27624.372218750003,"end":27626.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27626.616593750005,"end":27634.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27634.56471875,"end":27640.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27641.179718749998,"end":27646.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27646.37721875,"end":27650.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27650.359718749998,"end":27655.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27650.984093750005,"end":27651.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27651.64221875,"end":27655.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27656.16471875,"end":27662.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27662.94846875,"end":27667.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27667.35284375,"end":27671.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27668.247218750003,"end":27673.444718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27671.723468750002,"end":27675.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27675.975968750005,"end":27677.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27677.37659375,"end":27677.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27678.692843750003,"end":27679.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27679.975343750004,"end":27684.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27684.75096875,"end":27684.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27685.358468750004,"end":27685.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27686.86034375,"end":27687.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27688.26096875,"end":27691.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27692.27721875,"end":27713.421593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27713.421593750005,"end":27714.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27714.653468750003,"end":27724.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27715.328468749998,"end":27715.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27725.14971875,"end":27728.187218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27727.57971875,"end":27728.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27728.187218750005,"end":27728.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27728.23784375,"end":27728.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27729.840968750003,"end":27736.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27736.692218750002,"end":27740.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27739.91534375,"end":27747.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27747.64409375,"end":27750.968468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27750.968468750005,"end":27756.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27751.069718750005,"end":27751.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27751.154093750003,"end":27751.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27754.427843750003,"end":27756.233468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27756.08159375,"end":27759.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":27758.629718750002,"end":27765.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27763.793468750002,"end":27769.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27770.62784375,"end":27775.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27775.97721875,"end":27778.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27779.57159375,"end":27779.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27780.31409375,"end":27783.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27783.959093750003,"end":27796.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27796.88534375,"end":27802.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27802.58909375,"end":27813.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27813.692843750003,"end":27816.561593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27816.882218750005,"end":27819.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27819.58221875,"end":27821.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27822.11346875,"end":27823.311593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27823.750343749998,"end":27826.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27827.17596875,"end":27828.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27828.96471875,"end":27829.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27830.33159375,"end":27831.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27832.33971875,"end":27837.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27837.452843750005,"end":27838.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27838.98846875,"end":27840.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27840.591593750003,"end":27848.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27849.248468750004,"end":27849.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27849.28221875,"end":27849.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27849.38346875,"end":27855.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27856.234718749998,"end":27857.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27858.37784375,"end":27864.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27864.857843750004,"end":27868.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27869.279093750003,"end":27873.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27873.480968750002,"end":27880.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27882.08721875,"end":27882.694718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27883.184093750002,"end":27894.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27896.414093749998,"end":27897.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27898.01721875,"end":27900.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27900.818468750003,"end":27901.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27902.77596875,"end":27903.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27904.429718749998,"end":27905.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27905.897843750005,"end":27907.905968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27907.95659375,"end":27911.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27913.457843750002,"end":27915.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27916.17471875,"end":27916.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27916.967843750004,"end":27919.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27920.528468750003,"end":27927.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27927.85221875,"end":27929.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27930.434093750002,"end":27935.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27936.28971875,"end":27939.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27939.56346875,"end":27940.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27940.137218750002,"end":27940.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27940.677218750003,"end":27942.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27942.921593750005,"end":27943.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27943.765343750005,"end":27944.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27944.42346875,"end":27947.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27946.617218749998,"end":27958.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27959.577218750004,"end":27961.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27962.412218750003,"end":27967.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":27967.40721875,"end":27967.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27968.014718750004,"end":27971.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27972.452843750005,"end":27975.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27975.35534375,"end":27977.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27977.75159375,"end":27980.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27981.97034375,"end":27985.109093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27985.88534375,"end":27987.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27987.55596875,"end":27992.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27992.82096875,"end":27996.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27998.052218750003,"end":27999.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":27999.50346875,"end":27999.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28001.07284375,"end":28002.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28002.152843750002,"end":28004.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28003.92471875,"end":28013.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28004.802218750003,"end":28005.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28008.78471875,"end":28009.155968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":28009.155968750005,"end":28009.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28009.17284375,"end":28009.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":28012.075343750003,"end":28012.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":28013.64471875,"end":28014.015968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28013.91471875,"end":28015.062218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":28014.99471875,"end":28015.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28015.585343750005,"end":28017.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28018.015343750005,"end":28021.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28022.26784375,"end":28024.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28024.68096875,"end":28024.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28024.69784375,"end":28031.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28031.97096875,"end":28032.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28032.105968750002,"end":28040.054093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28040.054093750005,"end":28045.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":28043.952218750004,"end":28044.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28044.96471875,"end":28045.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28047.968468750005,"end":28051.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28051.69784375,"end":28055.562218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28066.615343750003,"end":28070.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28071.64409375,"end":28072.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28072.757843749998,"end":28103.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28103.57159375,"end":28106.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28106.609093750005,"end":28109.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28109.81534375,"end":28115.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28116.56534375,"end":28129.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28129.93034375,"end":28137.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28138.28346875,"end":28139.093468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28139.97096875,"end":28144.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28145.45534375,"end":28150.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28150.669718750003,"end":28151.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28157.757218750005,"end":28158.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28159.664093749998,"end":28163.241593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28164.270968750003,"end":28179.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28180.099718750003,"end":28184.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28184.520968750003,"end":28185.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28185.482843750004,"end":28188.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28187.03534375,"end":28190.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28189.094093749998,"end":28190.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28190.91659375,"end":28191.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28191.84471875,"end":28192.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28192.435343750003,"end":28195.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28196.48534375,"end":28197.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28198.037843750004,"end":28203.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28201.58159375,"end":28207.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28207.47096875,"end":28207.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28207.757843749998,"end":28207.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28208.247218750003,"end":28215.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28216.600343750004,"end":28220.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28218.186593750004,"end":28219.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28220.02596875,"end":28229.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28220.076593750004,"end":28221.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28227.11346875,"end":28227.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28229.965343750002,"end":28230.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28230.47159375,"end":28231.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28231.85534375,"end":28232.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28231.905968750005,"end":28232.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28232.02409375,"end":28232.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28232.76659375,"end":28232.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28233.50909375,"end":28235.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28233.795968750004,"end":28233.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28233.82971875,"end":28234.859093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28234.859093750005,"end":28234.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28235.922218749998,"end":28242.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28243.296593750005,"end":28245.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28246.26659375,"end":28246.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28247.56596875,"end":28248.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28247.599718750003,"end":28248.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28248.426593750002,"end":28248.780968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28248.780968750005,"end":28253.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28249.03409375,"end":28249.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28251.02534375,"end":28251.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28254.349718750003,"end":28258.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28259.496593750002,"end":28260.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28260.036593750003,"end":28267.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28267.967843750004,"end":28269.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28269.06471875,"end":28270.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28270.02659375,"end":28277.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28278.22784375,"end":28289.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28290.17534375,"end":28291.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28291.44096875,"end":28291.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28291.474718750003,"end":28291.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28291.50846875,"end":28291.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28291.559093750002,"end":28291.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28291.592843750004,"end":28291.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28291.609718749998,"end":28291.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28291.710968749998,"end":28292.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28292.031593749998,"end":28297.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28297.97159375,"end":28299.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28299.810968750004,"end":28300.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28300.334093750003,"end":28300.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28300.975343750004,"end":28303.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28304.31659375,"end":28309.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28309.66596875,"end":28310.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28310.18909375,"end":28310.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28310.273468749998,"end":28310.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28310.982218750003,"end":28311.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28311.285968750002,"end":28312.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28312.787843750004,"end":28317.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28318.289093749998,"end":28320.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28321.19159375,"end":28321.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28321.25909375,"end":28321.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28321.27596875,"end":28337.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28337.020343750002,"end":28337.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28337.18909375,"end":28337.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28337.72909375,"end":28337.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28338.23534375,"end":28339.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28339.028468750003,"end":28348.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28348.934093750002,"end":28352.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28352.61284375,"end":28355.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28354.570343749998,"end":28354.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28355.02596875,"end":28366.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28367.37846875,"end":28368.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28369.437218750005,"end":28372.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":28369.622843750003,"end":28370.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28373.234093750005,"end":28392.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28392.522218750004,"end":28394.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28395.08721875,"end":28398.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28398.49596875,"end":28399.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28401.060968750004,"end":28408.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28409.262218750002,"end":28409.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28409.279093750003,"end":28416.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28415.11784375,"end":28415.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28416.855968750002,"end":28418.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28420.31534375,"end":28423.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28424.41596875,"end":28438.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28439.451593750004,"end":28445.796593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28446.640343750005,"end":28459.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28448.327843750005,"end":28450.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28451.027843750002,"end":28451.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28460.27534375,"end":28462.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28462.874093750004,"end":28463.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28463.734718749998,"end":28463.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28464.662843750004,"end":28464.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28464.679718749998,"end":28469.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28469.01659375,"end":28472.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28470.552218750003,"end":28471.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28472.83034375,"end":28474.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28476.74534375,"end":28479.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28481.04846875,"end":28482.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28483.124093750004,"end":28490.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28490.46471875,"end":28490.515343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28490.97096875,"end":28493.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28493.51909375,"end":28493.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28493.552843750003,"end":28494.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28494.68346875,"end":28495.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28495.155968750005,"end":28496.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28497.53534375,"end":28497.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28498.109093750005,"end":28499.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28500.623468750004,"end":28512.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28512.975968750005,"end":28520.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28520.890343750005,"end":28529.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28530.52596875,"end":28532.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28532.888468750003,"end":28532.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28532.93909375,"end":28534.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28533.023468749998,"end":28534.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28534.42409375,"end":28534.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28534.50846875,"end":28535.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28534.997843750003,"end":28541.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28541.967218750004,"end":28553.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28553.897843750005,"end":28559.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28557.154718750004,"end":28558.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28559.280968750005,"end":28579.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28560.37784375,"end":28561.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28579.733468750004,"end":28581.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28582.95659375,"end":28583.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28584.32346875,"end":28584.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28585.521593750003,"end":28587.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28587.023468749998,"end":28587.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28587.968468750005,"end":28590.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28590.887843750003,"end":28596.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28596.996593750002,"end":28598.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28598.95409375,"end":28599.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28600.32096875,"end":28602.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28602.835343750005,"end":28627.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28628.468468750005,"end":28630.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28630.577843750005,"end":28634.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":28636.93971875,"end":28636.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28636.95659375,"end":28637.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28638.44159375,"end":28639.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28639.26846875,"end":28641.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28641.529718750004,"end":28644.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28644.21284375,"end":28644.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28645.27596875,"end":28646.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28646.912843750004,"end":28670.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28669.812218750005,"end":28673.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28673.153468750003,"end":28674.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28673.355968750002,"end":28674.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28674.70596875,"end":28674.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28675.21221875,"end":28677.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28678.249718750005,"end":28680.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28682.09721875,"end":28682.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28682.114093750002,"end":28694.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28682.468468750005,"end":28683.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28694.145968750003,"end":28694.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28694.280968750005,"end":28706.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28700.74409375,"end":28703.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28706.835968749998,"end":28706.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28706.85284375,"end":28708.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28708.05096875,"end":28710.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28710.14346875,"end":28716.218468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28716.927218750003,"end":28724.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28724.942843750003,"end":28727.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28728.40221875,"end":28730.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28730.460968749998,"end":28730.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28730.646593750003,"end":28735.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28735.99596875,"end":28743.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28736.046593750005,"end":28737.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28744.247843750003,"end":28748.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28747.605968750002,"end":28762.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28759.536593750003,"end":28759.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28762.405343750004,"end":28762.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28762.89471875,"end":28763.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28763.19846875,"end":28763.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28763.41784375,"end":28766.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28766.522843750005,"end":28782.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28782.30096875,"end":28782.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28782.942218750002,"end":28784.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28782.99284375,"end":28783.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":28783.00971875,"end":28783.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28783.02659375,"end":28783.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28784.528468750003,"end":28784.545343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28785.01784375,"end":28785.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28785.65909375,"end":28792.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28792.560968750004,"end":28794.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28794.73784375,"end":28800.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28800.84659375,"end":28804.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28804.64346875,"end":28814.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28814.56596875,"end":28816.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28816.624718750005,"end":28819.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28819.476593749998,"end":28820.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28821.906593749998,"end":28824.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28824.302843750003,"end":28831.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28824.89346875,"end":28827.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28830.59721875,"end":28831.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28831.272218750004,"end":28831.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28831.44096875,"end":28831.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28831.559093750002,"end":28831.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28831.575968750003,"end":28831.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28831.64346875,"end":28837.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28837.887218750002,"end":28838.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28838.005343750003,"end":28838.342843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28838.342843750004,"end":28838.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":28838.730968750002,"end":28838.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28838.781593749998,"end":28844.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":28844.670968750004,"end":28845.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28846.40909375,"end":28849.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28850.762843750003,"end":28862.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":28877.880968750003,"end":28925.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":28926.109718749998,"end":28927.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":28928.168468750002,"end":28928.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28929.70409375,"end":28930.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":28935.84659375,"end":28937.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":28938.006593750004,"end":29017.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29018.71971875,"end":29025.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29025.756593750004,"end":29043.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29044.184093750002,"end":29048.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29047.20471875,"end":29049.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29049.34784375,"end":29050.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29051.592218750004,"end":29054.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29054.93346875,"end":29099.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29099.905343750004,"end":29100.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29100.49596875,"end":29125.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29125.99409375,"end":29127.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29128.52534375,"end":29135.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29135.663468750005,"end":29138.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29138.04284375,"end":29138.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29138.498468750004,"end":29143.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29144.37096875,"end":29148.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29148.45471875,"end":29150.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29151.01971875,"end":29151.374093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":29151.374093750004,"end":29151.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29151.390968749998,"end":29151.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29151.559718750003,"end":29157.280343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29157.584093750003,"end":29158.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29159.01846875,"end":29164.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29164.857218750003,"end":29165.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29165.63346875,"end":29172.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29166.747218750003,"end":29167.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29172.70409375,"end":29175.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29175.809093750002,"end":29181.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29181.46221875,"end":29182.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29183.16659375,"end":29186.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29187.38534375,"end":29188.296593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29188.85346875,"end":29191.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29191.975343750004,"end":29197.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29196.632843749998,"end":29210.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29209.32284375,"end":29217.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29217.25409375,"end":29220.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29217.94596875,"end":29218.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29219.397218750004,"end":29219.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29220.19034375,"end":29225.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29221.523468749998,"end":29222.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29225.55659375,"end":29230.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29230.889093750004,"end":29233.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29233.926593750002,"end":29237.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29237.537843750004,"end":29237.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29237.89221875,"end":29238.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29238.55034375,"end":29240.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29240.94659375,"end":29244.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29244.794093750003,"end":29253.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29252.89409375,"end":29257.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29256.437843749998,"end":29269.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29259.053468750004,"end":29259.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29260.521593750003,"end":29262.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29267.23784375,"end":29267.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29269.53284375,"end":29273.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29271.827843750005,"end":29317.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29302.74284375,"end":29302.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29304.177218750003,"end":29304.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29304.194093750004,"end":29304.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":29304.34596875,"end":29304.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29314.538468750005,"end":29314.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":29314.57221875,"end":29314.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29314.656593749998,"end":29314.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29314.67346875,"end":29314.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29314.724093750003,"end":29314.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29314.740968750004,"end":29314.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29317.44096875,"end":29320.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29321.33909375,"end":29321.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29321.86221875,"end":29325.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29325.25409375,"end":29332.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29333.320343749998,"end":29334.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29333.33721875,"end":29335.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29335.395968750003,"end":29337.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29335.44659375,"end":29335.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29337.944093750004,"end":29342.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29342.29784375,"end":29343.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29343.79971875,"end":29348.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29346.482843750004,"end":29346.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29347.832843750002,"end":29371.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29350.24596875,"end":29350.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29352.389093750004,"end":29352.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29359.679093750005,"end":29359.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29359.763468750003,"end":29359.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29359.83096875,"end":29359.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29366.36159375,"end":29366.749718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29368.26846875,"end":29368.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29371.00221875,"end":29371.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29371.272218750004,"end":29399.335343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29398.10346875,"end":29399.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29399.959718750004,"end":29403.874718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29401.849718750003,"end":29404.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29404.397843750005,"end":29413.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29413.72971875,"end":29469.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29470.632218750005,"end":29483.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29483.76096875,"end":29484.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29485.14471875,"end":29491.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29488.435343750003,"end":29488.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29489.76846875,"end":29492.468468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29491.067843750003,"end":29491.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29492.890343750005,"end":29500.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29497.22721875,"end":29503.960343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29502.84659375,"end":29503.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29504.162843750004,"end":29504.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29504.61846875,"end":29508.600968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29508.95534375,"end":29514.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29513.984093750005,"end":29576.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29533.76159375,"end":29534.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29575.982843750004,"end":29583.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29582.513468750003,"end":29582.749718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29583.62721875,"end":29584.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29585.19659375,"end":29589.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29589.600968750005,"end":29592.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29592.351593749998,"end":29605.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29595.77721875,"end":29596.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29596.16534375,"end":29596.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29606.121593750002,"end":29611.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29611.26846875,"end":29627.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29618.929718749998,"end":29619.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29627.974718750003,"end":29633.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":29633.695343749998,"end":29633.796593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29633.796593750005,"end":29633.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":29633.83034375,"end":29633.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29633.965343750002,"end":29634.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29634.03284375,"end":29634.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29634.218468750005,"end":29634.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":29635.129718750002,"end":29635.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29636.513468750003,"end":29639.702843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29640.39471875,"end":29658.585968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29658.61971875,"end":29682.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29689.95659375,"end":29693.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29695.609718749998,"end":29695.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":29696.36909375,"end":29697.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29701.65096875,"end":29702.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29702.51159375,"end":29743.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29744.952218750004,"end":29750.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29750.80784375,"end":29753.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29754.317843750003,"end":29763.734093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29764.10534375,"end":29770.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29770.75409375,"end":29771.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29771.86784375,"end":29772.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29773.234718749998,"end":29779.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29779.444718750005,"end":29788.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29788.388468750003,"end":29793.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29794.68284375,"end":29795.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29795.256593750004,"end":29796.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29795.91471875,"end":29798.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29799.779093750003,"end":29799.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29799.795968750004,"end":29802.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29800.28534375,"end":29804.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29804.318468750003,"end":29806.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29806.29284375,"end":29810.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29810.41034375,"end":29810.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29810.47784375,"end":29811.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29811.94596875,"end":29818.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29819.387843750003,"end":29823.319718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":29823.47159375,"end":29824.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29823.89346875,"end":29826.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29827.302218750003,"end":29832.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29832.803468750004,"end":29833.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29833.59659375,"end":29836.296593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29833.79909375,"end":29833.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29836.63409375,"end":29836.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29836.65096875,"end":29838.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29837.865968750004,"end":29839.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29839.16534375,"end":29869.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29869.169093750003,"end":29870.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29870.687843749998,"end":29871.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29871.97034375,"end":29872.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29872.30784375,"end":29872.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29874.60284375,"end":29878.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29878.163468750005,"end":29886.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29886.34784375,"end":29888.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29888.592218750004,"end":29892.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29892.810968750004,"end":29893.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29894.076593750004,"end":29897.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29898.396593750003,"end":29898.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29899.122218750003,"end":29902.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29902.699718750002,"end":29907.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29907.20534375,"end":29918.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29909.41596875,"end":29909.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29919.11909375,"end":29929.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29929.68284375,"end":29934.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29933.530343750004,"end":29950.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29934.255968750003,"end":29934.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29934.32346875,"end":29934.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29951.012843750003,"end":29951.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29952.059093750002,"end":29963.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29963.685968750004,"end":29967.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":29967.97221875,"end":29990.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29990.61846875,"end":29998.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29998.83659375,"end":30001.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30001.671593750005,"end":30007.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30005.18159375,"end":30028.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30008.13471875,"end":30009.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":30009.09659375,"end":30009.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30009.147218750004,"end":30009.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":30009.164093749998,"end":30009.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30009.653468750003,"end":30009.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":30013.146593750003,"end":30013.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30028.030343750004,"end":30028.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30028.26659375,"end":30036.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30037.075343750003,"end":30053.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30037.26096875,"end":30037.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30037.328468749998,"end":30037.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30037.919093750003,"end":30037.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30053.646593750003,"end":30060.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":30060.64971875,"end":30060.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30060.78471875,"end":30060.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":30060.801593750002,"end":30060.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30060.936593750004,"end":30065.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30063.21471875,"end":30063.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30065.256593750004,"end":30082.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30066.13409375,"end":30066.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30066.37034375,"end":30066.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30082.418468750002,"end":30088.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30088.442843750003,"end":30100.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":30092.62784375,"end":30092.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30092.965343750002,"end":30092.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30094.973468750002,"end":30095.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30099.411593750003,"end":30101.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30100.559093750002,"end":30103.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30102.65159375,"end":30119.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30119.61096875,"end":30126.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30126.765968749998,"end":30126.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30126.90096875,"end":30127.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30127.035968750002,"end":30127.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30127.12034375,"end":30127.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30127.22159375,"end":30127.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30127.255343750003,"end":30127.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30127.289093749998,"end":30127.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30128.132843749998,"end":30128.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30128.77409375,"end":30129.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30128.89221875,"end":30131.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30131.777843750002,"end":30142.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30141.34596875,"end":30141.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30141.36284375,"end":30141.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30142.780343750004,"end":30144.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30144.73784375,"end":30148.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30149.310968750004,"end":30152.702843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30152.51721875,"end":30153.968468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30154.64346875,"end":30158.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30156.398468749998,"end":30157.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30158.811593750004,"end":30160.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30161.05596875,"end":30170.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30169.40909375,"end":30170.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30170.387843750003,"end":30175.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30175.33221875,"end":30190.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30187.077218750004,"end":30187.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":30187.33034375,"end":30188.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30188.05596875,"end":30188.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30191.414093749998,"end":30191.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30191.582843750002,"end":30215.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":30214.161593750003,"end":30222.312218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":30222.177218750003,"end":30225.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30227.138468750003,"end":30230.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30232.04909375,"end":30236.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30238.242218749998,"end":30288.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30289.069718750005,"end":30291.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30292.562843749998,"end":30299.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":30299.734718749998,"end":30329.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30383.890343750005,"end":30383.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30384.295343750004,"end":30384.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":30388.98659375,"end":30389.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":30389.054093750005,"end":30389.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30402.38534375,"end":30402.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":30402.46971875,"end":30402.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30402.50346875,"end":30403.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30403.718468750005,"end":30403.819718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":30404.15721875,"end":30405.03471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":443.166,"end":443.814,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":864.044,"end":864.345,"text":"主席"},{"start":1741.191,"end":1746.074,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1760.807,"end":1764.911,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1785.404,"end":1788.631,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1817.875,"end":1824.343,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1832.78,"end":1845.891,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1857.159,"end":1861.861,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1877.961,"end":1889.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1893.707,"end":1904.418,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1927.197,"end":1944.602,"text":"本集完結"},{"start":1945.282,"end":1962.553,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1972.161,"end":1994.096,"text":"報告委員會已經達法定人數我們現在開始開會來請來登記好不好要權宜問題登記發言的來請來請來那個主席台登記發言好來"},{"start":2041.883,"end":2055.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2081.991,"end":2097.255,"text":"好 那我現在詢問在座的委員因為一般處理有兩種方式一個還是先確認完議事錄再讓大家發言那一個是先發言我們再處理那請各位委員表達意見要不要先確認上次的會議事錄再發言有兩種不同的意見那我們表決一下好了要先確認那個議事錄的請舉手"},{"start":2113.714,"end":2117.617,"text":"本委員會有5位贊成,先確認議事錄"},{"start":2138.473,"end":2148.843,"text":"反對確認議事錄請舉手本委員會有幾位來現在在處理程序來請不舉手是不是好那我們就先確認議事錄來請宣讀議事錄"},{"start":2151.149,"end":2154.312,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月13日星期三9時至13時21分3月14日星期四9時至13時12分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳昭芝等14人"},{"start":2168.604,"end":2193.715,"text":"列席委員林德福等29人請假委員廖偉祥參加亞洲太平洋國會議員聯合會APPU年會列席官員3月13日勞動部部長許明春等相關人員3月14日環境部部長薛復聖等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳3月13日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢"},{"start":2195.836,"end":2214.526,"text":"本會議由勞動部部長報告後．委員陳昭芝等24人提出質詢．均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆．委員廖偉祥、林德福及葉元之所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報．決定．報告及詢答完畢．委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者．請相關機關於2週內以書面答覆．委員令要求期限者從其所定．通過臨時提案3項．"},{"start":2222.53,"end":2251.338,"text":"3月14日,邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。本日會議由環境部部長報告後,委員林月琴等24人提出質詢,均經環境部部長、幾個相關主管等即席答覆。委員廖偉祥、楊耀及邱振軍所提書面質詢,列入記錄刊登公報,決定一、報告及詢答完畢,二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆,委員令要求期限者從其鎖定,"},{"start":2251.778,"end":2276.52,"text":"通過臨時提案5項宣讀完畢好請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處好如果沒有的話那我們議事錄確定那因為剛剛有委員登記就是針對今天會議提出這個要權宜問題那現在目前登記的"},{"start":2280.218,"end":2280.298,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":2314.053,"end":2314.717,"text":"針對今天我們"},{"start":2316.553,"end":2346.093,"text":"針對今天這個王玉明委員所排定的這個有關社會安全網的一個專題報告那我是認為就是說王委員他這個曾經是我們爾蒙的董事在上禮拜之前都還是我們爾蒙的董事那根據我們立法委員行為法第22條立法委員行使職權就有利益迴避情勢之意識然後應該迴避審議及表決所以我認為今天是不是"},{"start":2347.153,"end":2363.602,"text":"王委員不適宜擔任今天的主席,是不是國民黨這邊在另外推派一位主席出來?我是認為王委員是不適宜。今天關於本案"},{"start":2364.242,"end":2391.92,"text":"相關的臨體或者是處理我也認為王委員不宜來參與那應該以王委員曾經在爾蒙擔任董事你的經驗或者是你曾經國民黨把你推薦為這次不分區你是以這個社福專業那應該針對這件事情發生之後應該以你的專業大家一起來討論如何來精進未來要如何處理而不是來利益迴避所以我"},{"start":2393.181,"end":2400.792,"text":"這個應該要利益迴避,所以我在這邊建請我們的這個王委員應該今天不適宜來擔任今天的委員會的主席,好謝謝"},{"start":2404.403,"end":2421.676,"text":"黃秀芳委員陳述的是個人意見第一個我要表達在上個禮拜四我已經公開請辭了兒福聯盟的董事所以我不知道為什麼還有所謂的利益迴避的問題另外如果你認為本席不適合的話麻煩你提案麻煩你提案麻煩你提案我告訴大家這一件事情發生的時候"},{"start":2432.865,"end":2456.757,"text":"我也是3月11號從媒體才告知而蒙的執行長沒有告訴董事所以他也請回了執行長董事後董事會也已經把他辭退了所以不要失焦不要失焦你已經發言結束你已經下台為什麼要上來"},{"start":2457.817,"end":2467.588,"text":"那我就是要講說,這個案件發生的時候,請問林建黨現在今天是在模糊焦點嗎?今天我們要檢討的是社會安全網：今天要檢討的是社會安全網"},{"start":2480.781,"end":2494.485,"text":"結果民進黨委員的發言應該就是在研討委員為什麼民進黨的委員今天不敢進入直接程序我們來討論社會安全網的議題反而在研討一個不來討論這個是一個非公的措施請問立法院：你的時間到請下台"},{"start":2504.028,"end":2521.957,"text":"那這個我要講一下今天委員會的重點是什麼請委員不要失焦特別黃秀芳委員你作為召委今天召委本來就有排案權請問社會安全網不應該在衛環委員會大家充分的討論嗎請問不應該討論嗎請問不應該討論嗎"},{"start":2533.325,"end":2559.675,"text":"請問你們現在是要阻擾社會安全網的討論嗎?黃秀芳委員跟吳思瑤委員跟林月琴委員在阻擾社會安全網的討論黃秀芳委員、吳思瑤委員、林月琴委員現在就是在阻擾整個社會安全網的討論"},{"start":2563.493,"end":2573.24,"text":"主要社會安全網的討論請全國民眾看清楚民進黨正在主要社會安全網的討論我們請陳昭之委員"},{"start":2587.931,"end":2604.002,"text":"發生了這麼重大的孽兒事件我們要看的不是衛福部的政令宣導我們要看的是檢討報告無論衛福部你怎麼描述這個安全網有多麼縝密未來會多麼好明明就是徹底失靈了才會發生這個悲劇所謂的檢討報告一定要有人認錯"},{"start":2610.347,"end":2633.619,"text":"認錯,錯在哪裡才能檢討改進所謂的檢討報告你要從根本原因去分析要了解為什麼會發生這樣的疏失誠實的去了解你才可能提出有效的對應的改進方案整個社會安全網無論你站在這個安全網哪個位置你都必須站好站穩做該做的事不能遺漏要做好做滿甚至不能做錯"},{"start":2635.28,"end":2657.789,"text":"這件事情究竟是人的問題還是制度的問題都沒有搞清楚衛福部你交出的報告就開始修改SOP如果社安網這麼強壯的話那孩子怎麼會出事呢好再看看那個密密麻麻的時間序禮拜天你們才交給各委員的兩個社會局家而服各自為政的一個填充題衛福部的角色在哪裡呢"},{"start":2658.769,"end":2681.604,"text":"我們都看到before所謂第四個保姆已經看到兒童小朋友前兒這個淤青有斷崖有無神為什麼只是記錄沒有去搜沒有去追查就聽保姆怎麼講就直接搜嗎這孩子一出生就命運多舛最需要社會安全網的保護但是從頭到尾都被置身在這個社會安全網之外所以連"},{"start":2682.705,"end":2683.546,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":2713.411,"end":2730.085,"text":"在這邊還是要提醒我們的主席因為今天你到底適不適格做主席因為立法委員行為法第22條就明定你在行使職權就有利益迴避情勢的議案應該要迴避審議跟表決而福利聯盟你在擔任董事事上剛剛講說因為"},{"start":2732.867,"end":2758.667,"text":"執行長沒有我跟你講董事會事實上事實上都有定期召開除非今天董事會失職那從頭到尾都失職嗎所以也要問的是那為什麼你今天還是可以坐在這邊一直在講捍衛兒少權益的時候過去沒有被兒少幫兒少把關然後進到立法院裡邊那今天你就坐在這個位子上你怎麼可能去審議提出更公正的對兒少權益更有幫助的一些"},{"start":2759.527,"end":2784.022,"text":"政策所以我質疑我們的主席是不是應該要做利益迴避不應該在主席台上請我們的王主席來王育民主席不要只逃避然後呢不迴避請你請國民黨呢是不是可以派出另外的主席當然我覺得質詢甚至質詢跟我們的林棟我都覺得不適合"},{"start":2790.005,"end":2799.874,"text":"請我們的王玉敏不要只逃避不迴避請國民黨派出適宜的人來擔任主席這個位置"},{"start":2801.823,"end":2802.423,"text":"請主席回應"},{"start":2839.071,"end":2852.477,"text":"請你針對這件事情這個可能新科委員很不理解這個委員會進行的程序我們現在是權宜發言委員發言時間你如果發言結束無話可講就請回座 謝謝不要欺負新科委員好不好就不懂程序啊不懂程序就換下一個下一個委員時間到了換下一個委員"},{"start":2865.575,"end":2868.037,"text":"我這個是新科的老鳥今天的題目是邀請衛生部長、教育部、法務部、內政警政署"},{"start":2890.903,"end":2918.773,"text":"來就社會安全網推動情形及策進的作為我們的目標不要私交今天是要看民進黨政府也是講衛福部你要怎麼做你中央做不好、失職的地方我覺得我們今天是要來講這件事那民進黨政府跟"},{"start":2919.895,"end":2928.652,"text":"我們民進黨黨團跟我們的衛福部是在甩鍋給縣市政府還有"},{"start":2929.784,"end":2951.374,"text":"聚焦攻擊王一鳴這個已經失焦了這個可以另外排時間來講所以今天就是要開會、要檢討讓衛福部提出怎麼要來撥這個門我們看到這種這麼慘絕人防的事情我想社會上上下下沒人聽的下去"},{"start":2952.751,"end":2971.782,"text":"今天就要好好來談至於各個聯盟．兒少立新基金會他們內部的他們有檢討報告我們的衛福部要怎麼去督促衛福部你自己的職責要講清楚不是只有兩三頁所以陳昭之委員說要退回我也是蠻贊成的退回好好的檢討那我們是要求"},{"start":2978.578,"end":2979.138,"text":"臨時提案11點半討論"},{"start":2998.329,"end":3000.852,"text":"民進黨不要護航,我們要諮詢!"},{"start":3017.354,"end":3039.148,"text":"現在有提案然後依程序發言進行表決提案人蘇清泉、圖全景、盧憲一那我們現在今日會議表決裁點名表決方式進行提案人蘇清泉主席我懷疑尋問的權利王立民主席"},{"start":3039.548,"end":3040.849,"text":"我們現在開始進行點名陳金輝委員、盧憲一委員"},{"start":3057.546,"end":3074.202,"text":"林月琴委員、陳昭芝委員、邱振軍委員、蘇清泉委員、廖偉祥委員、屠權己委員、黃秀芳委員、王振旭委員、劉建國委員"},{"start":3077.155,"end":3102.366,"text":"林淑芬委員我們現在依據委員提出來的議案停止程序發言進行表決我們現在進行點名表決我們逐一唱名進行點名表決陳金輝委員是不是贊成停止程序發言"},{"start":3106.403,"end":3116.891,"text":"無線衣委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?林月琴委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?"},{"start":3118.993,"end":3123.238,"text":"陳昭芝委員是不是贊成停止程序發言陳昭芝委員贊成我們要對象是邱正居委員是不是贊成停止程序發言"},{"start":3137.255,"end":3145.603,"text":"蘇清泉委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?黃秀芳委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?黃秀芳委員．是不是贊成停止程序發言?"},{"start":3163.325,"end":3179.963,"text":"王委員．應該要立意迴避是不是擔演同意訓練的專案報告．應該要立意迴避．應該要立意迴避．不要求人監裁．要求人監裁判．還不履書分委員．"},{"start":3193.171,"end":3220.583,"text":"我們要解決問題我們要質詢國民黨要解決問題民進黨只想要解決王育敏不要失焦我們要質詢我們要解決問題不要失焦我們要質詢我們要解決問題民進黨只想解決王育敏"},{"start":3221.872,"end":3238.82,"text":"不要犯政治化我們要執行我們要解決問題民進黨只想要解決王玉敏請不要犯政治化你們再這樣下去全國的家長都很痛心啊"},{"start":3239.36,"end":3256.412,"text":"王育敏要回避!王育敏要回避!我們要解決問題!我們要解決問題!我們要直詢!平靜黨只想要解決王育敏!不要犯政治化!我們要直詢!這個要壞掉!這個要壞掉了!不要破壞!不要破壞!"},{"start":3265.82,"end":3285.779,"text":"請給我們執行的成立不要亂我們要執行我們要解決問題我們也要執行我們要執行我們要解決問題請你們不要犯正句話請五委員不要霸占發言台請五委員不要霸占發言台"},{"start":3287,"end":3312.636,"text":"信徒委員不要霸占發言台我們要質詢我們要質詢國民黨要解決問題民進黨只想解決王育民不要霸占發言台不要犯政治化、模糊焦點"},{"start":3315.457,"end":3319.819,"text":"民進黨不要亂啊!我們要開會!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!"},{"start":3332.845,"end":3342.096,"text":"我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!我們要質詢!"},{"start":3354.35,"end":3373.307,"text":"護航衛福部、衛福報告部委員：換主席就來出席不要模糊焦點換主席就來出席公共施施長蘇昭如保護服務施施長張秀淵心理健康施施長陳亮宇"},{"start":3374.748,"end":3402.687,"text":"口腔健康師主秘張又明民進黨要不要開會民進黨不要不開會只故意要護航民進黨就是用這種暴力不敢監督衛福部只敢監督立委這是什麼呀執政黨這什麼呀執政黨衛福部是不是心虛衛福部心虛了嗎是不是衛福部心虛不要心虛不要心虛"},{"start":3404.609,"end":3410.858,"text":"請不要心虛、模糊焦點喔!不要模糊焦點!"},{"start":3421.112,"end":3433.367,"text":"接下來,我們請...會員服務是不是心虛?民進黨是不是心虛?不敢開會!不敢讓委員質詢!早上不來天道,現在不敢開會!這就是執政黨!這就是民進黨!"},{"start":3437.532,"end":3452.411,"text":"請衛福部部長發言民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!民進黨不要護航!不要護航!"},{"start":3455.017,"end":3469.965,"text":"我們有提案我們要求更換主席的提案請優先處理請習近宣告請衛福部部長上台請衛福部部長上台我們提出要更換主席請委員回報請尊重召委請尊重立法院請尊重議事規則"},{"start":3484.472,"end":3498.538,"text":"請優先處理,民進黨不要心虛,民進黨不要心虛,民進黨不敢質詢,對福布只敢護航,民進黨不要心虛,來,我們可以表決,表決要不要處理提案"},{"start":3507.628,"end":3524.653,"text":"我們沒有我們新會議進行到了三個月沒有辦到現在還在護航到現在還在護航我們要進行到現在還在護航我們提出要更換主席的提案要優先處理"},{"start":3532.477,"end":3551.666,"text":"現在都是來開會的民進黨在旁邊鬧場好難看所有的委員都按照程序已經表達停止程序發言但是民進黨還在鬧場民進黨在護航衛福部不讓官員上台報告不讓官員來質詢"},{"start":3556.303,"end":3572.874,"text":"今天剛才大家已經都說停止程序發言了應該可以開始發言但是民進黨在鬧事當執政黨還在鬧事都是執政黨人還在鬧事立法委員應該是要站出來監督行政單位監督衛福部可是民進黨的立法委員不願意監督衛福部"},{"start":3583.541,"end":3590.284,"text":"在鬧事還想常主席談．順利進行．我們要開會．大家早早7點就來安排咨詢．就來登記咨詢．就是希望能夠開會．來去為會服務．開會．利益要回避會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．我們要開會．"},{"start":3612.295,"end":3612.655,"text":"我們要開會 我們要開會"},{"start":3633.425,"end":3638.149,"text":"我們要開會我們要開會我們要開會我們要開會上次質詢的時候已經遲到了7個民進黨的立委現在9點半了還開不了會是不是已經9點半了應該趕快開會不要對不起人民都已經9點半了9點就應該開始開會了現在已經9點半了"},{"start":3660.668,"end":3668.096,"text":"拜託你們求求你們不要在那場了拜託你們求求你們求求民進黨不要"},{"start":3675.376,"end":3681.018,"text":"全國人民都在拜託你趕快上班9點31分9點31分9點32分02秒9點32分04秒9點32分07秒"},{"start":3696.442,"end":3719.572,"text":"民進黨的委員不認真上班民進黨的委員不按照程序進行民進黨的委員不讓大家開會民進黨的委員已經讓大家少了半個小時的時間延宕半個小時的會議時間民進黨的委員不按程序來民進黨的委員不民主民進黨的委員不按程序來"},{"start":3724.514,"end":3745.309,"text":"議事規則要不要送你們一個議事規則民進黨的委員我們要開會大家都準備好質詢都準備好開會請問登記1號陳季暉想不想要開會來請問登記2號盧憲宇想不想開會想請問3號林月琦想不想開會不想他不想"},{"start":3746.77,"end":3763.321,"text":"請問4號陳小智想不想開會?想!請問5號王一鳴想不想開會?想!請問6號邱振軍想不想開會?想!請問7號蘇清泉想不想開會?想!請問8號徐小新想不想開會?想!請問9號涂玄機想不想開會?想!請問10號黃秀光河想不想開會?不想!請問王振旭想不想開會?還不想!"},{"start":3772.747,"end":3799.832,"text":"劉建國想不想開會他不想所以已經延宕了30分鐘浪費全國人民30分鐘的時間大家都在看民進黨在鬧事今天召委按照程序走我們要按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走按照程序走"},{"start":3800.492,"end":3822.493,"text":"按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!按照程序走!如果你們要換主席,你們可以表決啊!"},{"start":3823.554,"end":3849.001,"text":"不好意思各位好朋友看起來只有兩個人不願意開會其他人都已經準備好要質詢了已經浪費了人民半個小時的時間到底還要浪費多久大家都想要聽衛福部長的說法大家不想要聽你們在場浪費時間請黃秀珍委員提議請委員會做不要主要議事的進行"},{"start":3850.401,"end":3873.433,"text":"衛福部部長現在上台報告報告時間5分鐘誰在站著這邊前面就是在阻擋會議的進行請黃秀芳委員、林月清委員回座請衛福部部長上台報告衛福部部長上台報告請大家感受報告"},{"start":3875.194,"end":3876.675,"text":"我們都很想開會那個"},{"start":3901.229,"end":3911.194,"text":"學部長請上台護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會護兒童要開會來 部長上台報告"},{"start":3930.084,"end":3950.865,"text":"部長上台報告來部長薛瑞仁部長請上台報告報告時間5分鐘你為什麼這邊可以放牌子你你有這樣子的嗎在開會時間這邊放牌子嗎你自己擔任召委請節制一下好不好來部長部長請上台報告"},{"start":3952.166,"end":3979.076,"text":"按照程序警主席我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理好我們把權宜問題處理"},{"start":3981.097,"end":3981.497,"text":"全議問題優先處理"},{"start":4002.908,"end":4003.768,"text":"請部長上台!請部長上台!"},{"start":4035.725,"end":4038.108,"text":"我沒有我沒有我們要全贏小心我會受傷"},{"start":4054.46,"end":4055.541,"text":"全議問題優先處理!全議問題優先處理!"},{"start":4084.343,"end":4111.493,"text":"喂?喂?"},{"start":4114.605,"end":4140.174,"text":"不要模糊焦點在這樣搞下去全國的父母親只會越來越失望看到我們的執政黨不願意檢討現在在議事場上亂鬧大家不要模糊焦點我們想要解決問題我們要質詢民進黨只想要解決王育敏我們要解決問題我們要質詢再搞下去請全國的家長父母親都看清楚現在誰在拒絕"},{"start":4141.534,"end":4170.336,"text":"現在誰在拒絕檢討這個社安網的問題全國的父母親請看清楚我們需要解決問題而不是而不是模糊焦點我看全國全國人民都關心這個議題讓部長上台報告好嗎吳思瑤不要浪費這麼多人的時間好嗎部長時間很寶貴嘛主席也請你了吧"},{"start":4172.06,"end":4198.803,"text":"請主席先告現在請薛瑞元部長上台報告請薛瑞元部長上台報告請薛瑞元部長上台報告民進黨的委員不敢質詢衛福部長只敢護航只敢鬧場民進黨的委員不敢質詢只敢護航只敢鬧場"},{"start":4200.344,"end":4220.84,"text":"所有的暴力 民進黨的委員要負起最大責任為什麼為什麼在衛環委員會不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場為什麼衛環委員會不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場為什麼民進黨委員不敢質詢官員只敢鬧場這是什麼意思"},{"start":4221.6,"end":4229.086,"text":"民進黨的委員不要不敢質詢官員,只敢護航。民進黨的委員不要只敢護航,不敢質詢。"},{"start":4244.902,"end":4249.303,"text":"來,我們請衛福部部長上台報告,來好,休息五分鐘"},{"start":4265.267,"end":4269.61,"text":"我的麥克風已經被吳斯雅委員拉壞了聽不到聲音"},{"start":4289.822,"end":4290.042,"text":"那個部長部長"},{"start":4318.576,"end":4326.681,"text":"主席說休息五分鐘好不好大家協商一下好不好大家協商一下來大家都先各自回座可以嗎"},{"start":4330.857,"end":4355.285,"text":"不要再不要再不要再護航了各自迴避各自回座各自回座各自回座各自回座各自回座來拜託我們請我們委員同仁各自回座各自回座各自回座好各自回座好我們先各自回座好不好各自只要質詢部長的不要讓部長看戲好不好大家藍綠委員先坐嘛"},{"start":4384.136,"end":4386.737,"text":"希望等一下民進黨委員對部長火力也那麼強啦"},{"start":4400.441,"end":4410.887,"text":"我們等一下媒體朋友都看看藍綠委員對部長的質詢是不是像剛剛火力一樣那麼強拜託我們民進黨委員也展示一樣的火力監督執政黨"},{"start":4426.582,"end":4440.667,"text":"主席各位同仁要開會大家都要開會要解決問題才是正辦現在兩邊都來了嘛那剛才稍微協商一下我提出潛移問題什麼叫潛移問題當會議開始的時候沒有辦法開會就有潛移問題"},{"start":4445.39,"end":4470.958,"text":"那四年前的問題大家聽看看應該可以解決,我們大家冷靜一下,大家都要看那有什麼意見在執行樓去表達,要開會要解決問題這個是前提所以剛才跟副總召談過了第一個,剛才我看到蘇貞昌委員在這裡有幾個案子,就是報告不完整要退回在NCE"},{"start":4472.523,"end":4489.933,"text":"NC那一次齁,上禮拜交通委員會也是一樣就是說NC委員的報告,陳漾的報告百分之八十幾就雷同退回,但是陳琦恬怎麼處理?退回照退回,但是請各位參議員還是繼續報告,這是第一點,這樣才能夠進行嘛"},{"start":4492.975,"end":4514.208,"text":"第二點,當然大家各有立場,民進黨也備一個案,也就是說請主席回避,讓表決都到程序,表決輸了我們就繼續,我們今天趕快開會,這樣好不好?好不好?好,來來來,那第一案處理啊,有兩個案子嘛你只是發言而已好不好?"},{"start":4523.328,"end":4531.591,"text":"今天開會的目的,是要讓全國的國人能夠了解事實的真相,為不得全責,應並該讓全國國人"},{"start":4547.662,"end":4575.909,"text":"能夠聽到他們講清楚說明白也透過朝野今天的質詢能夠讓所有的答案能夠趨於更加的清楚今天會議主席王昭偉進行到現在程序上都沒有問題但是我們希望大家委員要理性剛剛柯總召是希望透過權宜問題以後我們能夠正式透過民主的方式來解決現在的問題"},{"start":4577.694,"end":4604.991,"text":"本席表示尊重但是也希望大家在開會人民有知的權利我們一定要尊重會議主席主持會議所以現在這個域名召委你可以按照這個議事程序我們本朱和諧希望問題能夠到達解決所以現在沒有關係我們就按照剛剛柯總統有提出一些相關的問題我們是不是跟"},{"start":4607.744,"end":4622.597,"text":"上週交通委員會一樣因為報告內容非常的不實在這個報告我們退回以後尋答照樣尋答另外找時間再來補報告這個問題我們請召委來來做會議主持"},{"start":4632.915,"end":4646.663,"text":"好 謝謝兩位總召就是剛剛的發言那我們現在就按剛剛的協商我們處理兩個權宜的提案第一案我們先處理退回衛福部今天的報告的提案來請宣讀"},{"start":4655.064,"end":4677.163,"text":"建請本會委員應退回本日衛生福利部所提交的報告。鑑於本委員會今日所排定之議程,真正目的細為檢討保母虐童致死一案的根本成因及提出檢討作為,但衛生福利部的報告卻僅有補充幼童被虐致死事件的服務時序表,對於當中各個階段,"},{"start":4678.964,"end":4687.146,"text":"竟出現一、各級政府、社政部門及社福機構的官僚態度導致出現社會安全網運作失靈的嚴重問題二、被虐幼童長期受虐情況下儘管明顯有被察覺異常卻無任何一個單位或機構出面保護任憑被虐幼童身處危險情境而導致不可挽回的悲劇等等根本性成因卻未見衛生福利部在報告中有任何的說明、論述及檢討"},{"start":4708.112,"end":4736.957,"text":"指敷衍交差地送來一份不及格的報告原為避免如此官僚不知檢討的態度成為本會邀請行政機關說明之常態進行本會應退回衛生福利部之報告提案人委員陳昭芝、蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳金輝、林德福宣讀完畢好那我們先來處理這一案退回報告請問委員有沒有意見沒有意見好通過好來第二"},{"start":4752.537,"end":4766.406,"text":"第二案基於立法委員行為法第22條請王玉明委員遵守利益迴避不要擔任今天會議主席提案人委員劉建國、黃秀芳、林月琴、王振旭、林淑芬宣讀完畢"},{"start":4768.271,"end":4776.036,"text":"好,來針對這個提案,大家有沒有意見?好來,有意見我們就表決處理表決,好來好來好來,我們就採那個點名表決針對民進黨提出來的這一案進行點名表決"},{"start":4799.104,"end":4824.931,"text":"陳金輝委員盧憲一委員林月琴委員陳昭芝委員邱振軍委員蘇清泉委員廖偉祥委員圖全吉委員黃秀芳委員王振旭委員"},{"start":4826.839,"end":4831.14,"text":"劉建國委員．林淑芬委員．陳穎委員本案反對7票贊成6票不通過那現在我們請衛福部部長針對今天的主題進行報告"},{"start":4860,"end":4883.117,"text":"時間5分鐘主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的全體委員會議"},{"start":4886.25,"end":4896.063,"text":"本部曾邀列席報告深感榮幸之就強化社會安全網第二期計畫執行情形提出專案報告請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":4898.158,"end":4918.23,"text":"行政院在107年合併強化社會安全網第一期計畫推動以家庭為中心、以社區為基礎的服務模式。依據第一期計畫基礎的建構,也提出了第二期計畫,預計會投入407億漁業人及工部門各類專業人力,共7797人。"},{"start":4922.029,"end":4948.227,"text":"社安網第二期計畫在112年支援部件的情形社會福利服務中心一共部件達156處燃燒保護區域醫療整合中心部件有11家社區心理衛生中心部件達48處精神障礙者協作模式服務據點部件有36處充實地方政府各類專業人員達5452人"},{"start":4952.469,"end":4964.533,"text":"一百一十二年重要的推動成果是社福中心服務了五萬六千七百五十三戶的脆弱家庭服務後再被通報保護的比例是1.93%"},{"start":4968.534,"end":4980.428,"text":"集中篩判案中心受理35萬件保護性或脆弱家庭通報案件兒少保護區域醫療整合中心協助兒少虐待案件一共2958件"},{"start":4983.291,"end":5010.55,"text":"地方政府心理衛生中心合併多重議題的社區精神病人的服務涵蓋率達97.7%精神照護資訊管理系統第1、2級的個案服務涵蓋率達到99.4%要營個案服務管理的涵蓋率達95.3%那衛福部同意辦理的新進人員教育訓練一共有20梯次"},{"start":5011.471,"end":5034.137,"text":"一共有2186人完成訓練．對於社安網的策進作為．社安網強調以家庭為中心．以社區為基礎的服務模式．未來將積極深入基層倫理宣導．強化專業人員的教育訓練．充實各類的專業人力．此外中央會強化督導、協助、協調與查核的角色．"},{"start":5036.318,"end":5053.954,"text":"協助地方政府推動社安網的政策及相關服務網絡體系發展,另就重大的社會案件,議會建立檢討機制標準作為程序,中央地方七手合作共同面對制度面及執行面的困境,"},{"start":5056.465,"end":5078.39,"text":"有關於112年底出養兒童遭虐致死案,辦理情形及策進作為本案發生並不是被虐的流性兒童被社會安全網漏接而是已經接入社安網,卻仍然發生憾事"},{"start":5079.13,"end":5101.666,"text":"表示說社會安全網本身存在著設計規劃或者落實執行上面的缺陷因此今天藉這個機會我要代表衛生福利部為這樣子的缺陷導致一條生命的逝去向家屬和社會大眾致歉還沒還沒"},{"start":5104.38,"end":5128.369,"text":"那截至目前新北市政府、台北市政府和兒福聯盟的報告都還沒有送到衛福部檢察官的偵查也尚未終結所以衛福部掌握的資料也可能不完全但是依據現有的資料衛福部在3月15日召集雙北市的社會局、兒福聯盟的代表以及多位專家學者召開了檢討會議檢討會議的結論也會一併在今天的報告中呈現"},{"start":5134.68,"end":5159.532,"text":"衛福部在3月12日有召開內部檢討會議3月15日召開專案會議就中央、地方以及收出養媒合機構進行通盤檢討並就未來將強化服務流程與機制網絡單位與各級政府之間的合作調整各自的角色與任務使之更真明確"},{"start":5162.834,"end":5191.005,"text":"那檢討,通盤檢討,那的結果是如下第一個,收養評估的機制那這個流統它是被家屬要求是想要出養但是以現在的制度底下這個是不是適合要去出養而沒有其他解決的辦法這件事情是交給媒合機構的"},{"start":5192.465,"end":5212.147,"text":"這樣子會有利益衝突的問題因為出養如果完成了這個收養之後的話那收、媒合機構是依照他的服務進程會向收養家庭收取服務的費用所以這種情形的話會影響到出養必要性評估的結果也就是說"},{"start":5213.448,"end":5233.773,"text":"這些媒合機構可能傾向是同意出養而不會去思考是否還有對兒童更好的一些社會福利的一個協助的措施因此未來這個部分出養的必要性評估應該由地方政府來辦理"},{"start":5236.338,"end":5248.554,"text":"收養前的安置服務現行收養前的兒童安置是由媒合機構去決定收養的方式跟收養的機構並且由媒合機構支付這個費用"},{"start":5250.196,"end":5260.439,"text":"但是媒合機構本身可能缺乏照顧的資源,比方說這一次的兒福聯盟,事實上他本身並沒有照顧的機構,也沒有置辦的寄養家庭。"},{"start":5269.022,"end":5295.477,"text":"而且他的保姆只是有一個合作關係並不是長期的企業關係來可以對他來做長期的監督所以這一個由媒合機構去決定怎麼樣的方式來做安置以及選擇什麼樣的安置的機構那這個本身那可能會有問題"},{"start":5296.698,"end":5310.628,"text":"那也有可能因為經費的限制無法選擇對兒童最佳的照顧方式或者選擇這一個好的一個照顧人員為了確保兒少的最佳意義所以在收養前能獲得"},{"start":5311.949,"end":5332.507,"text":"在收養前能夠獲得妥善的照顧未來會要求地方政府依照委託安置的程序運用斜內安置資源來提供協助並且支付相關的費用如果地方的經費不足那中央將予以協助所以未來這一個費用的負擔"},{"start":5333.347,"end":5342.453,"text":"就不必交由媒合機構媒合機構也不用去考慮因為錢的問題然後去選擇不適當的照顧單位"},{"start":5348.646,"end":5368.575,"text":"那收養前的兒童安置,其實跟平常這個半日拖方式的情形是不一樣的因為如果交給保母,她是這一個半日拖那晚上接回去的時候,家庭是可以對兒童去進行檢視的"},{"start":5369.855,"end":5377.206,"text":"但是如果是採用全日托的方式那這個小孩子就全天交給這個保姆或者這個機構所以"},{"start":5380.137,"end":5402.859,"text":"就沒有機會去看這個小孩子的狀況所以針對這一種全日拖的這種方式的照顧模式的話那這個必須要更強的監督的機制所以我對於這一點本部會緊迫邀請各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率跟訂定相關的適應"},{"start":5404.988,"end":5423.383,"text":"現行居托人員接受委託照顧家外安置兒童適用的是直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則已經較一般居托人員的規範嚴謹資格條件、教育信任、訪視頻率等都比較嚴謹"},{"start":5427.847,"end":5454.163,"text":"但是考慮他這種照顧對象屬於特殊需求的兒少有必要比現在更為嚴謹的監督因此本部將召集專家及地方政府重新檢視室內人員的資格條件篩選機制的妥當性以及強化教育訓練完善入考的機制並研議較優的薪資待遇從本案來發現"},{"start":5458.826,"end":5476.812,"text":"收出量的媒合機構社工的方式可能不踏實、敏感度不足或是過度信賴、照顧人員的良善會避免受到各種惡意欺瞞的情形而失去對兒少保護的功能"},{"start":5477.372,"end":5503.661,"text":"一方面媒合機構要加強社工專業智能以及對兒童虐待的敏感度與辨識能力另外一方面本部將會邀請地方政府及專家學者延伸下列的事項媒合機構社工的例行、訪視頻率以及訪視時應該注意事項的列表也就是建立check-in list"},{"start":5504.942,"end":5531.142,"text":"訪視報告應該交給督導去審視．並且要報監督管理的地方主管機關．機構的督導或地方主管機關．如果對於這種訪視發現了有疑義的個案．那可能就必須要安排再訪視．除了全市對於沒有機構．第一線工作的加強之外．本部也將檢討"},{"start":5533.783,"end":5556.635,"text":"兒童及少年輸出養媒合服務者許可及管理辦法加強對於媒合機構本身的監督管理媒合機構對所屬工作人員應提供教育訓練及工作分配對合作機構或托育人員的監督以及確保對兒少及家屬服務品質的內訌機制也會一併檢討"},{"start":5559.844,"end":5580.889,"text":"第6從本案來發現新北市社會局接入本案主要是社福中心提供對家族在出養方面的服務那流同的照顧部分則都是由家屬自行委託保姆或交給兒福聯盟那臺北市社會局僅在"},{"start":5582.954,"end":5597.562,"text":"去年9月26日進行新收車訪試：最後兒童死亡後居車中心才接受到兒童通報：這中間社會局並沒有去做進一步的訪試："},{"start":5598.662,"end":5618.616,"text":"所以新北市沒有把流行兒童的情況通知臺北市臺北市的新收拾房子也沒有掌握到這個兒童是屬於脆弱家庭而且是需要全日收拾的對象所以有必要要加強房子跟關係那其次"},{"start":5619.497,"end":5645.189,"text":"居家托育人員的平時考核本部也將邀請地方社政機關來討論如何加強改善以避免不良分子混進來本部推動幼兒專責醫師制度以免付費的方式提供3歲以下幼兒一名專責醫師定期檢查兒童的發展狀況"},{"start":5653.363,"end":5668.38,"text":"推動開始的時候有邀請各地衛生局、社會局處來說明其中特別要求地方的社會局處對育有未滿3歲子女的脆弱家庭接受政府委託安置及出養"},{"start":5670.731,"end":5683.348,"text":"受監護的兒童,應該照冊給衛生主管機關,以利安排專責醫師專注兒童身心發展以及受照顧的狀況。從本案的情形來看,社會局處"},{"start":5684.75,"end":5685.65,"text":"本案涉及到兒童出收養"},{"start":5706.069,"end":5728.402,"text":"而受保護跟居家托育的管理三個面向那在地方的社會局處可能是不同單位來主辦牽涉不同面向的單一個案其實應該以個案為中心的原則單一組織、多方協力的方式來做處理那地方政府的分工不是這一個中央政府的權責但是"},{"start":5730.143,"end":5758.353,"text":"而這一方面的話地方政府要明確的這個跨科室案件分工合作的機制如果有涉及到縣市之間的爭議的話那再由中央來協助釐清檢討重大這個兒童事件的處理的機制這個部分的話根據本部重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小組實施計畫地方政府接獲兒少因"},{"start":5759.153,"end":5777.147,"text":"遭受父母、監護人或其他實際照顧之人重大的虐待事件導致所有嚴重傷害及死亡的個案就必須要召開重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小組的會議那地方政府個案檢討的結果應該在會議結束後兩週內提報給衛生福利部並建立決議事項的列管機制"},{"start":5785.473,"end":5802.149,"text":"其中所稱的其他實際照顧之人是否包括保姆,雖然涉及到本計劃跟直轄市縣市政府辦理居家托育人員疑似虐待或不當對待案件處理原則的兩者之間的適用問題,但"},{"start":5805.387,"end":5825.119,"text":"我們來看它的內容其實本案是沒有疑義的是屬於重大額內的事件是用哪一個程序只是內部分工的問題地方政府的社會局就可以決定其實並不需要請示中央但是當地方請示的時候本部相關單位應以"},{"start":5827,"end":5843.298,"text":"各案兒童委中心的原則思考來回答,而不是以確認機關內部分工作優先的、內部分工優先的思考方式來做處理。"},{"start":5844.679,"end":5860.523,"text":"中央、地方、相關人員處理態度的偏差本部應該負監督不周的責任在這裡向社會致勸並承諾將予以改善而未來屬於重大額內的這個主管的權責則應該以負責保護服務體系的主管單位為主責"},{"start":5866.324,"end":5879.201,"text":"以上這是我們的檢討報告有不盡之處請各位委員多以指教也請各位繼續對本部予以支持跟協助以上"},{"start":5879.858,"end":5883.581,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告因為為什麼特別還讓部長報告照大家來講剛剛已經通過了這樣的一個退回報告事實上是可以不需要讓部長再報告直接進入詢答但是大家可以看得出來剛剛主席特別給部長"},{"start":5896.673,"end":5896.693,"text":"委員．"},{"start":5927.053,"end":5939.764,"text":"發生這麼不幸的額虐事件從中央到地方到承辦的民間團體大家通通都有責任那我們要防止下一個額虐悲劇再發生就是大家一起嚴肅的來共同面對"},{"start":5942.446,"end":5958.834,"text":"跟檢討我想這個才會對未來防止下一個額略悲劇更有意義所以我希望本會特別是衛環委員會的委員應該是政治性最低專業度最高的委員大家就聚焦在如何檢討社會安全網"},{"start":5961.175,"end":5990.367,"text":"好好的來討論那上午這樣子的一個政治攻防真的是不必要而且浪費大家一個小時的時間那我們現在就進入今天的詢答本會委員詢答時間8加2分鐘列席委員5加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息5分鐘"},{"start":5991.287,"end":6009.728,"text":"原則上11點半處理臨時提案．如有提案請盡早提出．以利益事進行．有關本次會議各項書面資料．均列入記錄．刊登公報．現在請登記第一位的陳金輝委員發言．抱歉耽誤你一個多小時時間"},{"start":6015.714,"end":6024.584,"text":"主席．各位委員同事．各位官員．還有各位媒體朋友．大家早安 大家好有請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":6029.253,"end":6048.826,"text":"這段話是2020年蔡總統宣布第二期社安網所說的就職典禮的發言稿他提到我們要讓第一線的社工能量提升改善他們的工作環境讓社工能夠深入最基層"},{"start":6049.827,"end":6079.218,"text":"把過去社會安全網沒有接觸的人都找回來我們也不應該把責任全部推給醫療部門、個別法官、司法和行政部門應該要檢討制度結果我們很遺憾的發現到今天過了4年我們的社工能量還是沒有提升到處缺社工結果這件事事發大家是獵巫啊、醫師啊、社工師啊等等"},{"start":6081.974,"end":6095.544,"text":"這個剛剛部長有增加了非常多的篇幅本席也非常感動但是昨天列出來的檢討報告居然800字出現了11次地方"},{"start":6097.947,"end":6125.572,"text":"看到的時候真的很難過但剛才部長已經跟全國民眾還有凱凱的家屬道歉了我在這邊有一個小小的提議因為我也身為三個小孩的媽媽不知道部長如果在沒有媒體關注的狀況下你是否願意親自跟這位小男童的家屬道歉並且安慰他還有提供後續的安置還有你後續的做法呢"},{"start":6126.668,"end":6147.22,"text":"這沒有問題是 謝謝部長 謝謝部長今天願意道歉因為現在網路上已經有幾萬人聯署馬上破幾萬要聯署虐童致死可見人民對這件事有多麼生氣全國更是各地有民眾主動想要送花"},{"start":6148.274,"end":6173.017,"text":"跟這個凱凱致哀所以我們今天委員會召開最重要的意義就是我們應該要一起協助部長把這個社會安全網補起來因為您才是把每一絲每一絲的線補起來的人我們醫生、社工單位所有的地方政府都是這個網的一條線而已啊所以您才是最重要的角色"},{"start":6174.11,"end":6187.013,"text":"你有講到說14號說我們要同步制定托育專法盼本會期能送入立法院我想問這個會期剩下兩個月啦"},{"start":6188.73,"end":6199.853,"text":"您在這個會期真的可以送入立法院嗎?比較精確來講的話應該是送到行政院因為經過了這個專家會議討論之後的話我們會必須要我們的法規會再考慮這個法律的這個文字"},{"start":6209.335,"end":6231.081,"text":"那最後定案了才送那個行政院所以應該這個會期之內我們會我們人工生殖法已經搞兩年了還沒完成你現在說要做這個托育專法我不知道是不是就你法律專業的立場有什麼特別的考量您覺得現在我們的兒權法已經包含托嬰中心育兒機構還有保姆的規範都在裡面了"},{"start":6233.462,"end":6258.885,"text":"提出專法的意思是說你要把現在相關的條文、執法全部刪掉然後另立一個托育專法這是一個大工程欸我們的棟現在都還沒補好週末又有新的案件發生欸新的案件那個如果委員詢問我們再回答那這一個部分其實這個托育專法跟兒權法的修正我們已經討論兩年了所以已經差不多所以你很有信心這個會期"},{"start":6260.406,"end":6283.867,"text":"能夠把他送到行政院去做審查好,我們會緊盯您的進度另外呢,我也獲得本黨20幾位的委員共同連署我們也要即刻來提出兒少全法修正草案還有保姆定期的評鑑制度化本席也在這邊希望"},{"start":6284.768,"end":6294.279,"text":"衛福部可以在一個月內提出相關的研究報告還有預計實施的辦法還有你們大概修改這個托育專法修法的方向還有預計的進度"},{"start":6300.711,"end":6320.765,"text":"這一個部分的話,因為兒少權法這一次的修正很重要的一個是要符合這個CRC的一些就兒權公約的這一個部分那對於這一個做托育,尤其是像保姆還有托育的機構的管理的這部分因為如果仍然放在兒權法裡面的話,那他可能就會"},{"start":6321.766,"end":6338.404,"text":"會議"},{"start":6338.524,"end":6364.562,"text":"好 我們再來看109年衛福部曾經提出一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫當時呢這個連行政院院長都說我們5歲以下兒童的死亡率這個數字讓他感到非常的丟臉他自己公開在媒體上承認我們跟其他的OECD國家比起來啊別人是1.7 2.4"},{"start":6368.08,"end":6368.681,"text":"然後我們來看我們4.7、4.6當時你提出這個兒童醫療照護計畫幫自己訂了KPI你希望110、111、121、113是逐年下降結果呢我們發現實際的數據110、111是"},{"start":6394.066,"end":6416.665,"text":"4.8、5.1你的這個照護計畫是出了什麼事情?報告委員,這裡有兩個部分像委員這一張slide所顯示的右下方那邊新生兒的死亡率這部分的話有兩種算法一種是把22週裡面的也算進來所以現在再講4.8、5.1是這一個包括在裡面的"},{"start":6417.085,"end":6432.773,"text":"對但是如果把這個扣掉的話那就會稍微減少一點不過我們但還是沒有到你的KPI阿對阿所以我們在檢討的這一個部分的話第一個我們會我們已經在著手這一個所謂的兒童的"},{"start":6435.215,"end":6461.873,"text":"新生兒及嬰兒的這個死因的回溯的這個計畫我們想要找出可避免的這個死亡的原因所以這個案例我們今天討論的這個案例你看你上面寫說期待降低死亡率減少兒童可預防可避免的死亡我們這個案例算不算你提到的可預防可避免的死亡這個是深切檢討對"},{"start":6463.114,"end":6463.614,"text":"我們來看明別的表格"},{"start":6485.609,"end":6513.35,"text":"你把其他的策略目標還分成比如說兒童重難罕症疾病培訓兒童重症運送專業團隊未滿3歲而有專責醫師的照護推展脆弱家庭育兒指導服務好你列了這四項來我們看實際有達到你的KPI就是未滿3歲這兒童有專責醫師的照護其他你想要重難罕症疾病的這個"},{"start":6514.491,"end":6534.074,"text":"平台想要113年18個實際只有8個兒童重症運送專業團隊想要113年4個實際只有3個好你會把自己的KPI設成30%表示你深深的有發現其實醫療資源有限醫療資源不均"},{"start":6534.975,"end":6547.254,"text":"你這個全國復開率你自己也知道資源配置不太合理好 你說你希望這些翠家的育兒都可以有專責醫師那你為什麼要把第三項跟第四項分開"},{"start":6549.52,"end":6566.793,"text":"你應該是推廣催弱家庭育兒指導服務加上有專責醫師的照顧啊不是嗎現在這個育兒專責醫師的照顧的話我們希望是每一位不管他的背景是什麼每一位小孩子都有這樣子一個專責醫師所以我們這個設定的KPI30%那實際上是已經有超過了"},{"start":6572.877,"end":6587.302,"text":"但是對於退家的這個部分的話那是在裡面的另外一小塊因為這一些的話可能就會缺乏所謂的這個家屬那他的參與所以這個部分有特別要去做處理沒錯來我們可以看這個表"},{"start":6589.583,"end":6610.196,"text":"這個你都知道了部長也都知道了我們一個一般的幼兒需要加入專責醫師家長要上網先查詢還要再帶著手冊去填寫家長同意書來媒合基本上可以做到這件事情的家長就是不會在我們社會安全網之外嘛所以我們來看你的表"},{"start":6612.011,"end":6640.578,"text":"你說109年你就開始把社政還有衛政拉在一起結果你剛剛自己也在你的口頭報告承認說宣導不利嘛 對不對結果社會局跟衛生局他們都對於這件事情不太清楚你雖然109年你說你109年有做可是你根本沒有制度化也沒有系統化啊我去問基層的社工、兒科醫師他們都說"},{"start":6641.498,"end":6659.238,"text":"這半年來才知道而且經過這個新聞他們壓力超大因為每一個案主都去問他們說我的專責醫師呢你都還沒幫我找專責醫師所以你如果沒有制度化跟系統化你只有宣導這件事情我們怎麼把這個退家的人納進來嘛"},{"start":6661.08,"end":6687.951,"text":"我覺得這個利益非常好因為兒科醫師現在都已經不夠了全國都已經不夠了可是我們不是應該要先從接不住的人開始一定要注意他們都有被照顧到嗎這一個其實我們算過那如果說一位兒科醫師平均來照顧這一個有200個個案的話事實上我們大概只需要大概3000名的兒科醫師"},{"start":6688.351,"end":6711.495,"text":"我們現在3777兒科醫師所以人數是夠的可是我們城鄉分佈非常不均所以在那個兒科醫師比較缺乏的地方我們會交給衛生所有衛生所的醫師不論他是哪一個專科的都可以來做這件事情可是我等一下跟你說基層醫師在反映什麼我們看一下你自己畫的圖我們現在這個圖的問題出在哪裡你看"},{"start":6716.055,"end":6739.594,"text":"你只有把一般幼兒一般新生兒還有高風險孕產婦所生的新生兒列到幼兒專責醫師最後呢你發現翠家的因子還是醫生自己要發現或是衛生局自己要發現而不是從源頭就把他們找出來嘛所以你就從這個破洞我們這個案例就從這個破洞掉下來啦"},{"start":6741.341,"end":6768.674,"text":"對 所以這一次我們的深刻檢討就是這一點一定是未來要去改善的就這個圖我幫你畫好了社政跟那個衛生之間的聯繫是不夠的但你要把它制度化你要把它制度化比如說你這通報以後多久以內誰去訪查兒科醫師要怎麼訪查嗎這個兒科醫師要做什麼這些SOP是有的現在只是說社政單位沒有把這個個案的名冊交給這個衛生單位"},{"start":6770.895,"end":6793.457,"text":"我們仔細的比較了一下15號上個禮拜五你跟雙北市政府開完公私會議還有給我們衛環委員會的書面報告你說要指定專責醫師的這兩個族群居然有一點小小的落差你跟雙北的公私會議你剛才說你要落實衛政跟社政你跟雙北的公私會議說是"},{"start":6795.299,"end":6803.004,"text":"政府安置的3歲以下兒童結果你給我們的報告範圍更大是脆弱家庭也把他納入"},{"start":6805.195,"end":6824.409,"text":"這個部分的話講的是說不需要家長同意書因為他的家屬是已經這個支持系統薄弱你還要找他的家長的話有一點困難所以你的意思是說政府安置的不用家長同意書很多脆弱家庭找不到家長你不把他列進來喔"},{"start":6825.57,"end":6846.609,"text":"所以要直接就列進來,不必去經過他的同意的啦是,是,好這邊基層的聲音,我這邊也要反映一下基層的聲音我很多同學是小兒科嘛,他說第一你本來一班幼兒一年是500點嘛,你把他調到1000點很好"},{"start":6847.677,"end":6861.668,"text":"可是你現在你看發生這麼大的重大事件這些脆家的小孩都要交給他們照顧他們當然只是其中裡面的一條線第一你點數不用提升嗎他不用比一般兒童更多嗎有啊不是應該三倍五倍嗎是比那個高"},{"start":6871.763,"end":6893.888,"text":"這個事情是這樣子的第一個就是說我們把崔家這一個兒童放進來只是讓他identify出來說他手上有這樣子的一個小孩子如果沒有identify出來這些小孩子到他的診所去看病的時候你沒有給他發現說這個有這一個可能是額虐的話這個也"},{"start":6895.808,"end":6905.828,"text":"本來就是醫師本來就是所謂的義務通報人員對他還是有一定的責任的啦是他如果是被指定的話他還要加上一年訪視兩次欸"},{"start":6907.671,"end":6912.252,"text":"我希望您還是可以關懷這些基層醫師因為他們願意納入你的分級醫療看你是不是考慮也把大型的醫療機構也納入這目前已經要把他們納入了"},{"start":6933.757,"end":6961.473,"text":"因為對他們來說這也是多餘的行政負擔因為他們去訪視等等他們還是要提交報告目前參與的這個計畫的那醫院的部分是118家然後基層的是916家那其中的話醫師的部分的話那醫院的話是395位然後基層的話1481位所以這醫院的也有關於這些特殊家庭的點數我們之後再來講"},{"start":6962.794,"end":6992.095,"text":"剛也有花很多的口頭的篇幅去討論說我們保姆的平台這是你們的保姆平台也請你們有空的時候自己用用看如果我是一個家長我要去找我目前這個保姆到底是合法還是違法好我們從左邊進去齁這些資訊啊並不是很統一有人放照片有人不放照片好但他就代表說我今天搜尋到的保姆是合法保姆"},{"start":6992.813,"end":7016.603,"text":"我今天想要知道我這個保姆是不是違法居然是連到違反而效法專區叫我們自己慢慢撈我在撈的時候嚇死了只要是有做過這個未成年犯罪等等性侵性行為全部都列在那裡面跟保姆全部混在一起"},{"start":7018.01,"end":7031.332,"text":"那現在家長其實最關心的是什麼?家長最關心的是我這個保姆有沒有過一些賦品嘛等等的嘛而你就是把他跟這些違反兒校法專區全部混在一起這根本不是家長想看的資訊啊"},{"start":7033.45,"end":7061.048,"text":"包委員這一個部分是依在法律規定我們必須要公告的項目那至於委員說到說對於保姆那他的一個搜尋的平台這我們會來努力對而且你也應該把他自己獨立成一項嘛對啦就是要分開啦好我希望今天大家從各個層面我們都可以把這個網字再補得更好一點這也是最後想要提出來的建議好嗎謝謝部長"},{"start":7062.429,"end":7082.7,"text":"建議不會越來越大動建議應該是越來越玩命因為這件事情所以我們今天許多委員都會提出各種建議好謝謝部長好我們謝謝陳金輝委員的一個質詢等一下盧憲一委員質詢結束我們休息5分鐘接下來我們請盧憲一委員進行質詢"},{"start":7095.731,"end":7119.13,"text":"主席請部長好請薛部長委員好部長薛部長我們兩個都是醫生發生這樣的事情真的是很遺憾而且是三個月的時間讓他的小小的生命沒有辦法繼續長大"},{"start":7120.939,"end":7130.61,"text":"我們看了那個第二期計畫投入了400多億我們政府到底做了什麼那我先問一個問題保姆這一詞是從什麼時候開始講的保姆這個單字是從什麼時候開始講的"},{"start":7137.806,"end":7153.272,"text":"法務這一個詞是從禮記就有了就是西元500年、600年就有了他的位階是在老師、慈母第三個位階也就是說其實這個工作是非常重要的那我想問你第一個問題"},{"start":7154.973,"end":7166.049,"text":"這個流行保姆他的精神鑑定或者是精神報告有沒有啊這個沒有沒有所以我希望以後如果你要成為保姆你的精神或者心智的鑑定要有"},{"start":7167.578,"end":7169.579,"text":"反社會人格異常．全面性通盤評估"},{"start":7187.023,"end":7207.057,"text":"如果說確定要當保姆的話應該要做一天兩天的一個所謂的精神鑑定啊因為那個我覺得這是很需要來做不然一而再再而三發生這樣的事情是好沒有關係我們努力看看好不好不然你花了那麼多407億還是沒有進步的話你要去想的問題到底出在哪裡啊"},{"start":7209.023,"end":7226.521,"text":"第二個問題就是說他為何轉換那麼多保姆從出養一到出養四?他這個問題怎麼來的?可以告訴我嗎?這當然是就是說一開始的時候那是那個家屬自己去找的,去找的保姆"},{"start":7227.242,"end":7243.416,"text":"然後當他這個要出養的時候我的意思是1、2、3都沒有問題嗎?1、2、3的時間都不是很...1、2的時間如果他們照顧得很好為什麼會換到第4?所以我們就針對這一點去做研議就為什麼要這個因為轉到兒虎聯盟之後兒虎聯盟堅持說一定要換保姆這件事情"},{"start":7254.226,"end":7269.187,"text":"我看到是9月1號的時候就簽約了然後9月25號兒童第一次到保姆﹑兒童第一次到保姆家訪視他寫了說他有預清"},{"start":7271.061,"end":7292.411,"text":"於清對我們醫生來講是非常大的事情而且是在臉部在頭部那是不是應該要只要想到這一個話他是不是應該要做全身的一個照相以後要有這樣子一個insight好不好所以這部分就是我剛剛在口頭報告裡面有提到的我們必須要把check in list他1號簽約的25號就有於清了對不對"},{"start":7294.15,"end":7317.542,"text":"然後26號就社會局就收案反思完成然後到23號再過一個月的時候他說叫安靜叫安靜如果就我的理解來講如果如果是叫安靜的話是不是就是比較澎湃易碎的啊這個是不是已經是高危險群的這個如果就醫生來看的話也就是已經是高度懷疑他被虐待嗎不是嗎"},{"start":7320.228,"end":7346.043,"text":"當然這個社工的專業裡面也許沒有辦法去判斷這一個他到底有沒有看到我是覺得不太可能加上那個第11月的話是牙齒掉這件事情他有提出來那是被他打到牙齒沒有掉下來還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來我是覺得這個暴力跟非暴力的因素這個時候就可以去知道了那已經是死前一個月的事情"},{"start":7346.783,"end":7351.704,"text":"這目前檢調正在調查到底他是不是有去看事實上有沒有去看那怎麼樣看這是檢調現在調查但是"},{"start":7371.748,"end":7398.171,"text":"縱然這個是社工的這個訪視報告如他所述的話以上我剛才講的重點好不好部長就是說我們在做訪視的時候你看到這些比較異常的東西你就要高度懷疑不要再信任那個讓他受傷的人而且這個訪視報告應該在他的上級的督導應該也必須要好那我提出這個疑問為什麼事發三個月之後才會才有檢討機制"},{"start":7400.391,"end":7403.533,"text":"所以是地方政府的錯?是嗎?是地方政府的錯嗎?"},{"start":7426.533,"end":7429.337,"text":"所以到底是哪一個環節是衛福部還是縣市政府還是兒福聯盟這三個"},{"start":7443.692,"end":7469.423,"text":"先是政府沒有做這個檢討報告這是確定的到現在為止也都報告還沒出來那第三個問題是我們按照這樣的一個問題呈現的話你的訪視制度有沒有馬上要改善還是說你有沒有你心裡面的構想對啊這個部分的話當然對於一些比較特殊的個案的話那訪視的制度必須要改善訪視頻率以及現在參與訪視的有哪些專業人員"},{"start":7472.425,"end":7479.072,"text":"目前的話主要還是社工的人員只有社工嗎?現在專責醫師制度不是也有嗎?現在有專責醫師以後只有社工跟護理人員不用訪視嗎?"},{"start":7490.585,"end":7509.293,"text":"護理人員那個是進入到專責醫師的時候那是多久一次醫生是半年一次但是一個月一次是說一定要把小孩子帶到如果因為車車勞頓能不能增加視訊的"},{"start":7511.028,"end":7536.889,"text":"當然是可以因為三歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體權嘛就是就把他全部打開然後讓一會兒人員看一下可不可以當然可以是因為我覺得這個如果有這一項的話應該這件事情就不會發生了我們上次有問過署長齁進捐署長嗎對我有問問你說那個會捐社會問你說社工目前的比例是多少人口"},{"start":7541.66,"end":7555.491,"text":"社工的比例我們現在常常在講醫生服務的人口比是700多比一二社工呢?因為社工齁,社工他有分好幾個這種不同的業務的區域那如果是按照現在的你知道的"},{"start":7557.591,"end":7561.533,"text":"因為我們總覺得社工不夠社工的待遇不好"},{"start":7591.43,"end":7614.977,"text":"整體性的問題當然要改善他的服務內容以及他的待遇等等這些都是我們要努力的方向那我們在講到他的那個所謂檢討措施裡面有一個就是說你們要加強訪視重點跟訪視員的敏感度那敏感度你很會講那什麼叫做敏感度你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":7616.741,"end":7623.289,"text":"就如同剛剛委員提到的他看到了一個包那這個就要依視到那你要怎麼考試?"},{"start":7625.25,"end":7646.976,"text":"這不是考試的問題,而是...對啊,所以就是因為你沒有考試,你沒有增加變成一個它的勾肌或者是說稽查它的重點,它就不會有敏感度,永遠都不會有對,所以這部分就是我們未來在努力的方向,也就是它看到什麼東西,然後它就必須要意識到...所以那個就是敏感度,所以你既然知道你就要把它列入你要訓練的一個重點,不是嗎?對,對"},{"start":7655.305,"end":7683.351,"text":"因為剛剛那個我們的經費委員一直在講都是地方政府的錯所以我就不知道該怎麼讓你說剛剛我的口頭報告裡面其實對中央政府應該負的責任我也都提到了好 那我們剛剛講到死亡率的問題就是我們現在國人的小朋友的話大概還是在千分之2.8還是千分之4點多 對不對那我們原住民的話是一倍喔那我們一倍的地方"},{"start":7685.357,"end":7710.612,"text":"我們又是比較交通弱勢然後醫療資源也比較缺乏所以這以後在建立裝折制度的時候或者說仿試的時候要多鎖一些變革或者說權宜也就是說讓他們更方便讓照顧的人或者說被評估的人或者是這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓因為每一個村莊有的時候都是一兩個小時以上的距離好不好因為我們的死亡率高一倍"},{"start":7712.008,"end":7712.729,"text":"謝謝盧委員的質詢 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":7749.304,"end":7749.504,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7776.558,"end":7777.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7810.645,"end":7811.206,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8213.592,"end":8218.655,"text":"好我們繼續委員的發言質詢接下來我們請林月琴委員有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜齁我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱齁"},{"start":8241.772,"end":8269.345,"text":"那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說"},{"start":8270.435,"end":8270.935,"text":"而謀不是第一次"},{"start":8294.941,"end":8318.855,"text":"這事實上是在108年所以我們到底還有多少個開開108年新竹縣的陪陪在保母家離開了一樣是兒母安置的孩子那才兩個多月孩子除了感冒還有不明的頭部那因為是弱勢家庭那當初兒母也表示這是合格保母之前有帶過小孩最後呢反而是拿捐款的人錢來賠償"},{"start":8321.912,"end":8326.838,"text":"所以這陳情人告訴我說他的狀況這樣他是弱勢家庭他根本無力對抗一個機構那"},{"start":8330.584,"end":8354.871,"text":"當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案持熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在"},{"start":8355.351,"end":8377.896,"text":"一樣安置在保母家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保母家的。如果安置持續一直有額略的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?"},{"start":8379.006,"end":8386.312,"text":"跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說"},{"start":8387.352,"end":8387.792,"text":"對,我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層,如果"},{"start":8416.107,"end":8444.1,"text":"地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市"},{"start":8445.711,"end":8470.79,"text":"和我們運用居托人員家外安置的處理原則本來就是要找到依居家托育保姆登記管理辦法裡邊要找到所謂的訪視輔導兩號來看這個4月17聽說這個保姆也是誰是兒盟叫他去登記的他過去本來就沒有想帶小孩他110年就7月16號就拿到登記證了然後"},{"start":8475.593,"end":8500.667,"text":"9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案那"},{"start":8502.148,"end":8522.647,"text":"劉憲保姆有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊那在機構送孩子去安置有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾兩邊都不互通不管是文山居托中心甚至額蒙的這個社工完全不互通各自做各自的"},{"start":8524.434,"end":8545.353,"text":"也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視"},{"start":8550.902,"end":8575.494,"text":"整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置那為什麼新北市評估再不過"},{"start":8577.435,"end":8599.422,"text":"他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎"},{"start":8602.819,"end":8622.875,"text":"所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定這是第一點所以也要問部長未來怎麼督管地方政府"},{"start":8623.277,"end":8651.468,"text":"否則阿嬤本來就是只是缺錢她可以照顧那她甚至委託安置就OK的可是卻強行說要來出養就送到所謂出養前的安置那再來就是第二個在出養等待期為什麼不繼續安置原照顧的周姓保母她非常符合法規喔依照你們的法規她是符合的那新北市如果要去做這樣的決定的時候誰又可以去管控如果大家都不管控的時候最後就是最倒楣的就是孩子"},{"start":8652.108,"end":8676.67,"text":"那我們2014年就簽訂兒權公約國內法化的時候怎麼會沒有大家都沒有看到不管是機構不管是地方政府從頭到尾到底看到孩子的權益了嗎等待期的安置條文在哪裡這麼多年了沒有看到跟流性保母為什麼兒母講說他跟流性保母簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼"},{"start":8677.571,"end":8679.151,"text":"我希望中央真的要針對地方政府"},{"start":8705.748,"end":8733.515,"text":"沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題"},{"start":8735.695,"end":8750.592,"text":"所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出樣等待期的法源依據"},{"start":8751.721,"end":8766.326,"text":"不是誰說了算 要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是 郡公院也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的"},{"start":8766.966,"end":8790.482,"text":"那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們要還這兩個孩子的命一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間"},{"start":8791.283,"end":8797.585,"text":"我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心"},{"start":8815.478,"end":8839.823,"text":"所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆"},{"start":8841.072,"end":8866.993,"text":"一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以"},{"start":8868.157,"end":8897.108,"text":"部長也要問的是你怎麼讓地方不踢皮球事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做兩個縣市都有沒有做的地方比方說第一個新北市這邊的話對於出養的決定他沒有去所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽"},{"start":8898.075,"end":8900.941,"text":"可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?"},{"start":8902.127,"end":8930.537,"text":"所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以"},{"start":8930.97,"end":8959.891,"text":"法規已經很清楚了所以也請你督促各個未來各級機關不要再互相推諉該怎麼做就怎麼做在選擇保姆的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保姆這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保姆為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保姆為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去"},{"start":8960.371,"end":8985.69,"text":"這都是要檢討的衛福部本來就有發函有訂定原則又發函那為什麼縣市政府為什麼不督管所以未來可不定定一個相關辦法罰則否則很明確的5月31號就新聞給各地方政府了他們不做到底中央到底要怎麼還是一樣沒有辦法選擇好合格的保姆沒有辦法進行好的防治來防堵下一個生命受損所以這也請部長"},{"start":8987.032,"end":9004.413,"text":"針對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講喔從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子請盡速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據"},{"start":9005.151,"end":9023.806,"text":"還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待其可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?"},{"start":9025.526,"end":9050.749,"text":"尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的"},{"start":9051.329,"end":9072.538,"text":"主責機構所以從去年12月發生剛剛部長也報告到現在機構報告都還沒交到這邊真的讓我們覺得過去一直講說要捍衛孩子權益的單位那過去的董事在執行的時候也坐在這邊可是竟然沒有去捍衛我們孩子的權益所以請盡速把報告送上來以上"},{"start":9076.59,"end":9082.253,"text":"好謝謝林月琴委員的質詢接下來我們請陳昭芝委員質詢主席再請部長謝謝休息一下好部長請"},{"start":9098.052,"end":9113.947,"text":"部長直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說觀看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告"},{"start":9114.868,"end":9131.077,"text":"而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊"},{"start":9134.359,"end":9157.113,"text":"大概在這個週末是大概也不得一刻休息了但是部長我還是覺得您今天的報告還是比較選擇性的對於地方機構跟媒合機構的檢討就是說對於中央機構的部分中央主管機關我等一下會有一些事實的部分就是說中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的"},{"start":9159.312,"end":9179.073,"text":"部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號"},{"start":9181.754,"end":9206.801,"text":"但是在25天的時候,這個托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊"},{"start":9208.061,"end":9236.256,"text":"就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診"},{"start":9237.857,"end":9266.3,"text":"所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊"},{"start":9267.08,"end":9290.956,"text":"是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了"},{"start":9291.957,"end":9309.856,"text":"當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事"},{"start":9310.757,"end":9331.365,"text":"到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來"},{"start":9332.365,"end":9355.117,"text":"那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司"},{"start":9360.08,"end":9382.626,"text":"部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計劃因為上開計劃講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人他有孽兒的事件部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?"},{"start":9385.276,"end":9402.684,"text":"報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的"},{"start":9405.294,"end":9430.052,"text":"內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一棟大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號"},{"start":9433.615,"end":9447.627,"text":"社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文"},{"start":9448.786,"end":9473.799,"text":"部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實調如果是牽涉到社會局的"},{"start":9474.759,"end":9501.535,"text":"局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我再告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說"},{"start":9502.395,"end":9527.893,"text":"他們是昨天才知道這件事3月12號早上他們告訴我他們也是昨天才知道這件事就是說媒體報了才知道這件事但是前一章我已經談到了事實上12月27號社會局已經因為保護司推託他就已經跟社會跟這個社家屬報告了但是社家屬人3月12號到我辦公室跟我說他昨天才知道這件事部長"},{"start":9530.478,"end":9558.03,"text":"事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道"},{"start":9560.026,"end":9586.59,"text":"他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他"},{"start":9587.15,"end":9613.386,"text":"在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎"},{"start":9617.177,"end":9645.077,"text":"我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這個部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長了解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":9646.835,"end":9670.723,"text":"這個我是不是可以請李志來回答?實在是聽不下去了啦,看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁,因為我們要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近臺北市來通報兩個疑似的案件他也會希望要先做釐清那因為這個過程當中我們是沒有得到最後的一個釐清他是不是個額內案件那當然是我們有一個責任就是說我們同仁應該去追那個進度"},{"start":9676.185,"end":9703.638,"text":"這個部分我們也對這個部分沒有做到督導的部分也保釋掉錢市長但是保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的這個行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三年三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的一個負責"},{"start":9706.019,"end":9722.367,"text":"以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧就算說交給這個檢調再做調查中請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?"},{"start":9731.754,"end":9744.551,"text":"這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的"},{"start":9746.271,"end":9753.954,"text":"應該是以個案為中心以小孩子的利益為基礎我是替你們擔心的因為這些發言不符合上開條件這個屬於要跨科室的再討論這個以後會變成經典之言"},{"start":9761.397,"end":9781.536,"text":"委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這一個還沒有歸到這一個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以"},{"start":9782.679,"end":9800.255,"text":"同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革"},{"start":9800.996,"end":9819.441,"text":"那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了"},{"start":9820.202,"end":9835.782,"text":"過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚"},{"start":9836.263,"end":9859.365,"text":"我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊"},{"start":9861.527,"end":9879.684,"text":"沒有保護到他啦,但是我對於這一個剛剛委員提到保護社家屬這一部分,我已經做了一些解釋部長,我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個肥肥的這個嬰兒,甜甜的這個嬰兒肥,還有甜甜的笑容"},{"start":9880.985,"end":9897.861,"text":"我真的很慶幸說他在短短的一生當中還曾經有過一段這麼快樂的時光我也很慶幸他生命中至少還有一段這樣的時間我們一起為這個孩子祝福希望他往生後會得到安息部長謝謝"},{"start":9901.052,"end":9924.962,"text":"好 我們謝謝陳昭芝委員的質詢那等一下邱政軍委員發言完畢之後我們處理臨時提案那先預告今天中午我們會12點半左右會休息30分鐘用餐因為今天會比較冗長也要讓官員有時間稍微用餐休息好 那現在來那個麻煩邱委員代主席由我發言"},{"start":9935.161,"end":9937.883,"text":"是,我們請王委員育敏質詢好,謝謝主席我們是不是請部長"},{"start":9970.086,"end":9990.59,"text":"委員好部長好 部長你也辛苦了部長我想請教一下這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件12月發生那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎同事跟我報告的時候我才知道"},{"start":9991.533,"end":10019.395,"text":"本席也是我也是3月11號看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括俄府聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況"},{"start":10020.095,"end":10044.833,"text":"你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討"},{"start":10045.874,"end":10061.801,"text":"那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了"},{"start":10062.501,"end":10063.501,"text":"的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任"},{"start":10080.686,"end":10095.627,"text":"是但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再度發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表"},{"start":10096.749,"end":10124.206,"text":"呃……呃……"},{"start":10126.161,"end":10131.225,"text":"在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件"},{"start":10142.814,"end":10160.298,"text":"但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數"},{"start":10160.618,"end":10176.827,"text":"也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少"},{"start":10179.548,"end":10207.421,"text":"那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家"},{"start":10207.961,"end":10232.286,"text":"第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了"},{"start":10232.506,"end":10244.342,"text":"每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法這個"},{"start":10249.554,"end":10272.421,"text":"一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的"},{"start":10277.859,"end":10296.536,"text":"委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說,這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?"},{"start":10297.296,"end":10315.17,"text":"所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些"},{"start":10316.771,"end":10337.899,"text":"就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果全者不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來"},{"start":10340.881,"end":10368.379,"text":"要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把大家整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣"},{"start":10369.119,"end":10388.384,"text":"在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、房市頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題那就我來看寄養家庭其實過去"},{"start":10389.324,"end":10418.281,"text":"施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的他是第一個月是每週訪第二個月是隔週訪第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說同樣都是需要被安置的孩子在寄養系統相對完整但是在這個居家家外安置他就相對沒有那麼嚴謹那這樣子是不是產生品質不一那孩子的安全我們怎麼去做到位現在解方是什麼"},{"start":10419.308,"end":10445.677,"text":"這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別"},{"start":10446.557,"end":10475.225,"text":"那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個訪視因為這件事情爆發之後大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大"},{"start":10475.865,"end":10480.93,"text":"如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了"},{"start":10497.825,"end":10518.619,"text":"所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工"},{"start":10519.099,"end":10538.901,"text":"就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪"},{"start":10539.662,"end":10553.957,"text":"那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府大家都很吃緊啊就中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員還是中央可以全部買單另外一個幼兒專責醫師現在他的裁員也到114年"},{"start":10555.538,"end":10579.766,"text":"那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網"},{"start":10580.946,"end":10597.432,"text":"這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫"},{"start":10603.694,"end":10625.935,"text":"下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討"},{"start":10627.296,"end":10642.434,"text":"但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣"},{"start":10643.695,"end":10666.415,"text":"所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長"},{"start":10667.276,"end":10693.609,"text":"對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題"},{"start":10694.349,"end":10716.66,"text":"他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個"},{"start":10719.921,"end":10720.341,"text":"那你們的委託方案有沒有"},{"start":10741.929,"end":10769.796,"text":"有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理,但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫,尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話,那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫。"},{"start":10771.796,"end":10797.042,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工"},{"start":10798.038,"end":10823.957,"text":"藉大反彈而且打擊社工的士氣我們社社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進"},{"start":10827.312,"end":10842.819,"text":"針對這個社工被上銬的這個案件,其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環,大家平常合作也都會想好。那這件事情,他在執行的過程當中,真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題,人權的問題。"},{"start":10844.62,"end":10866.25,"text":"所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個致意這是我們的都是夥伴未來我們要再繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁再執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正"},{"start":10867.287,"end":10891.014,"text":"好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理"},{"start":10892.995,"end":10893.235,"text":"社會安全網"},{"start":10910.104,"end":10910.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":10939.533,"end":10943.015,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員接下來請邱政軍委員發言質詢好我們請邱委員好我們一樣請我們的薛部長好請部長"},{"start":10966.874,"end":10993.306,"text":"委員好部長您辛苦了但是碰到這個問題我也覺得我還是這樣覺得您還是責無旁貸我想我們現在就針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告"},{"start":10994.892,"end":11007.389,"text":"我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在"},{"start":11008.944,"end":11037.471,"text":"昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼"},{"start":11039.079,"end":11062.651,"text":"法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這一個媒合機構來做評估"},{"start":11064.952,"end":11093.494,"text":"但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查"},{"start":11094.255,"end":11118.669,"text":"另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做"},{"start":11120.421,"end":11127.978,"text":"因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說"},{"start":11129.556,"end":11154.683,"text":"我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以"},{"start":11155.143,"end":11166.771,"text":"不要說出了問題我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡"},{"start":11167.987,"end":11190.226,"text":"衛福部的角色又是什麼?可以到時候我希望我們部長這邊給社會大眾一個明確的一個說法好不好不能說讓不要讓外界覺得說我們今天碰到問題就把責任推給地方這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導"},{"start":11191.307,"end":11212.263,"text":"就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西放上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?"},{"start":11216.406,"end":11239.812,"text":"本來就屬於脆弱家庭本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量人員夠嗎現在是因為機制上面有問題他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嘛對不對不一定是人手不夠是就把他推出去就對了我講難聽一點就這樣子啦"},{"start":11242.168,"end":11258.946,"text":"那我覺得啦,我們的社工的工作量會不會太大?就增加這個部分的話是不會,因為他本來對這一類的家庭就脆弱當然他就要去做一些評估那各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?"},{"start":11260.694,"end":11284.888,"text":"這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎"},{"start":11285.348,"end":11307.311,"text":"社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長"},{"start":11308.712,"end":11337.634,"text":"那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎"},{"start":11338.564,"end":11351.689,"text":"林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長"},{"start":11353.24,"end":11353.26,"text":"應該要訓練"},{"start":11386.77,"end":11392.778,"text":"我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?"},{"start":11403.618,"end":11416.885,"text":"當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有但是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣"},{"start":11418.386,"end":11432.709,"text":"通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是"},{"start":11433.57,"end":11451.495,"text":"第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的機制。當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。"},{"start":11460.638,"end":11485.69,"text":"目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理"},{"start":11486.958,"end":11501.217,"text":"這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防"},{"start":11502.967,"end":11530.212,"text":"那我們部裡面我們會發許可給這個媒合機構嘛對不對?是從這邊來申請的對不對?那身為委託單位啦齁那我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任齁這個部分齁除了一年檢查一次齁我們三年也要評鑑一次嘛對不對?那還有什麼?我們不是委託的單位那誰委託?我們是給許可就是說"},{"start":11532.494,"end":11560.32,"text":"這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給藍燈既然是媒合就是說您發給許可那當然你好像不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎?我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼?"},{"start":11561.758,"end":11585.764,"text":"現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務。我這樣講,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看怎麼樣。"},{"start":11589.681,"end":11611.91,"text":"我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善"},{"start":11615.271,"end":11625.219,"text":"對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構它的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱正軍委員的質詢。我們現在來處理臨時提案,總計有13案,請一併宣讀。"},{"start":11635.033,"end":11657.507,"text":"臨時提案第一案目前無論從任何年齡層來看援助民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民是兩倍雖然你們沒有資料嗎?來議事人員來那我們先休息五分鐘他們要看一下"},{"start":11663.623,"end":11665.124,"text":"休息5分鐘,讓部長看一下"},{"start":12062.839,"end":12066.942,"text":"要發麥克風嗎?上台還是發牌?上台還是發牌?"},{"start":12079.935,"end":12080.275,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12100.753,"end":12114.366,"text":"臨時提案第一案目前無論從任何年齡層來看原住民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民之兩倍雖然衛福部自民國112年11月起開始推出全國兒童幼兒專責醫師制度"},{"start":12117.249,"end":12142.743,"text":"但應該針對原住民族地區嬰幼兒更為強化保護原提案原要求衛福部應於全國幼兒專責醫師制度之內特別針對原住民族地區新生兒死亡率偏高問題嚴厲積極改善方案並於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員如現役王育敏陳金輝第二案現行規定下"},{"start":12143.323,"end":12169.979,"text":"嚴格限制保母領取托育補助時﹐雙方之親屬關係﹐彼此須為三親等以下之親屬方得領取﹐否則保母僅得領取育兒津貼﹐但許多原鄉及偏遠地區因復原遼闊﹐家長接送不易﹐若一概要求奔波送托﹐反而導致家長困擾﹐且父母如果自身具有保母資格﹐照顧自身嬰幼兒時﹐卻僅得從托育補助及育兒津貼兩者擇依﹐"},{"start":12171.42,"end":12190.022,"text":"也有違政府政策美意．原要求衛福部積極與縣市政府協商．放寬限制．使此等偏遠地區下具有保母鎮造家庭之父母．得以同時領取托育補助及育兒津貼．並於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告．"},{"start":12191.243,"end":12199.966,"text":"提案人委員盧憲一、陳金輝、王育敏第三案有建於衛福部所提社會安全網推動情形及策進作為報告內容僅兩頁有關虐兒案完全未見還原真相、釐清問題的檢討與具體作法"},{"start":12207.028,"end":12224.224,"text":"原進請報告應與退回．要求衛福部針對上述缺失深自檢討並提出具體改進做法．重新再送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會審議提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、廖偉翔、陳金輝、盧憲伊、邱振軍、屠權吉"},{"start":12225.305,"end":12254.204,"text":"第4案由建於我國社會工作專職人員約18628人每人負責案件量難以負荷每年平均發生6000件暴力對待平均薪水約僅3.5萬元導致近3年平均流動率將近四分之一又涉及於工作過程中亦涉民形式糾紛或法律訴訟動輒成為媒體新聞焦點遭肉搜違反偵查不公開或形式訴訟法之對待原要求內政部及法務部"},{"start":12256.025,"end":12276.372,"text":"針對執法過程中如何保障社工個人隱私及人權提出檢討與精進作為向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王育敏、盧憲一、圖全集第5案社工平均薪水僅3.5萬元又社工於工作過程中涉人民刑事法律案件"},{"start":12277.472,"end":12305.39,"text":"其高額訴訟成本與漫長訴訟過程恐使社工人員難以負荷若衛福部無法提供協助致使社工求助無門將嚴重打擊社會工作者士氣影響社會安全網穩定性慎舉原要求衛福部於一個月內參考勞動部委託法律輔助基金會之專案提出支持社工射送協助機制提案人委員王玉敏、盧憲一、圖全吉第6案"},{"start":12307.079,"end":12311.423,"text":"考量衛福部針對家外安置兒童將增加訪視頻率對社工人力需求將大幅且持續增加為落實計劃並維持社工人員穩定性原要求衛福部於一個月內提出增加訪視制度之詳細執行計劃、人力規劃與預算規劃"},{"start":12326.198,"end":12340.276,"text":"向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王玉敏、盧憲一、圖全吉第7案臺北市一名1歲大兒童凱凱遭到一對流性保母姊妹聯手屍滅全身體無完膚休克慘死"},{"start":12342.839,"end":12349.503,"text":"引起社會公憤,為預防兒童受虐情況發生,原要求衛福部於一個月內嚴禮在收出養製度中,攝服機構或保姆應每月一次帶孩童到鄰近衛生所或社區診所進行健康檢查,健檢費用及掛號費用由政府編預算支出,每件計價而不是健保支出,要求醫師做記錄存檔,一發現有問題就及時通報衛福部,並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境提出"},{"start":12372.777,"end":12395.858,"text":"專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳昭芝。第8案,針對兒福聯盟社工疑似未盡探訪之責,導致孩童遭凌虐致死。社工人力不足是全國性制度性議題。原進行衛福部於一個月內,依最新法規附與社工之業務,重新盤點全國之真實社工人力需求,同時盤點全國社會安全網計劃。"},{"start":12398.32,"end":12419.226,"text":"目前社工缺額狀況提案人委員徒淳吉、聯署人委員盧憲一、邱振軍、陳金輝第9案經查證後發現我國國小兒童漸漸多由學校自行委外並交由診所協助檢查是否有達成國民小學學生健康檢查實施辦法基於瞭解國民小學學生"},{"start":12419.966,"end":12442.992,"text":"生長發育狀況．早期發現疾病與體格缺點．並予以矯緻且妥適安排教學活動．以增進學生健康的立法目的不無疑議．據此基於保證兒童身體健康權益．建請衛福部及教育部於一個月內．共同瞭解現況及研議國小兒童健檢改善方案．提案人委員王正旭、林月琴、陳盈"},{"start":12443.892,"end":12458.784,"text":"第10案,基於近期發生之流同遭保母虐死事件,為極力防止該事件再次發生,請衛福部立即檢討兒童出養前之照顧與評估機制,並修訂家外安置處理原則,並請衛福部針對直轄市縣市政府"},{"start":12462.086,"end":12481.782,"text":"運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則有關居托人員建立應改為要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視輔導狀況良好保姆名單以照顧安置個案簽署工作請於一個月內完成提案人委員林月琴、聯署人委員陳瑩、王振旭"},{"start":12482.543,"end":12494.656,"text":"第11案基於近期發生之流同招保母虐死事件為吉利防止該事件再次發生衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題請衛福部向兒福聯盟針對流同兒"},{"start":12500.081,"end":12522.769,"text":"針對劉彤兒虐致死案提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會委員審視並於一個月內公告建立居托服務中心與媒合機構公案準則以明確行政程序提案人委員林月琴、聯署人委員陳瑩、王振旭第12案有鑑於出養男童遭保姆虐死案引起外界高度關注更凸顯社會安全網各環節出現系統性問題"},{"start":12526.67,"end":12551.232,"text":"中央實施與地方政府充分配合落實相關教育．調整各自角色與任務使之更真明確原此要求衛福部應嚴格要求地方政府落實執行督導業務．並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、陳盈第13案"},{"start":12553.046,"end":12557.207,"text":"鑑於兒孽涉及相當多面向如出養男童遭保母虐死案涉及兒童初收養、兒少保護和居家通獄管理三個面向與地方局處可能由不同單位主責國家應將兒童相關事宜統合辦理為免將來因缺失而延誤相關案件的處置時間原要求衛福部應將相關通報制度調整並公告"},{"start":12578.174,"end":12589.58,"text":"未來不論家內、家外的兒童虐待事件都需向衛福部保護司通報以立各單位及時介入處置提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、陳瑩宣讀完畢好那現在我們開始處理請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見好來請"},{"start":12607.544,"end":12629.796,"text":"委員好 針對於這個臨時提案一的部分那業務單位這邊建議針對第三第三項的部分的第一行能夠把幼兒專責醫師制度的部分修改為優化兒童醫療照護計畫然後在最後一行的部分的專案報告改為書面報告 以上來請提案委員"},{"start":12637.831,"end":12654.481,"text":"第二案在最後一段因為這邊是不是可以建議原提案要求衛福部研議並修正而授"},{"start":12656.943,"end":12670.678,"text":"兒童及少年福利與權益保障法放寬輕等限制因為後面的此等偏遠地區可以同時領取托補與育兒津貼"},{"start":12671.819,"end":12691.417,"text":"這個因為涉及到整個全面的部分那這個而且我們現在脫補跟育兒津貼是只能夠擇一來領取這涉及整體制度那偏遠地區的這一塊呢因為這也涉及到"},{"start":12692.337,"end":12714.314,"text":"整體資源的部分所以我們是建議是不是可以來做一個思考是不是可以把這句話先刪除那在兩個月內因為這個放寬輕等限制還涉及到要修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法"},{"start":12714.854,"end":12718.595,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有意見好 那修正後通過 來 第三案"},{"start":12743.689,"end":12765.814,"text":"主管機關有意見嗎?他其實跟上午通過的一樣,那就是不是一起,就一起通過。好,那就按文字修正後通過。來,第三。"},{"start":12777.068,"end":12797.458,"text":"主席各位委員好,針對第4案的提案,法務部代表請針對第二段的部分,要求內政部跟法務部針對執法過程中,若保障社工個人隱私及人權,提出檢討進行作為,向立法院社福委員會來提出說明,這一點是沒有,但是有關社工"},{"start":12798.178,"end":12820.963,"text":"那這一點跟刑訴事項89條之一以及執行機體逮捕解送過程使用藉機的實施要點規定他是要求所有執法機關應該對被告跟犯罪嫌疑人都要注意他的身體跟名義那來避免藉機的暴露所以我建議這邊的一個社工能不能改成被告及犯罪嫌疑人那回復到法條的一個依據"},{"start":12821.963,"end":12823.204,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12841.221,"end":12868.667,"text":"謝謝委員關心關於社工射送的協助機制那最後一段我們是支持但是建議刪除第二句話因為不一定是完全委託法務基金會所以最後一段修正委員要求衛福部於一個月內提出支持社工射送協助機制好可以修正後通過我們要做社工的後段因為他們職業風險真的也很高謝謝好來"},{"start":12872.847,"end":12889.851,"text":"第6案是不是可以在兩個月內因為這個需要再找很多相關單位好沒問題那就請兩個月內要提出詳細的計畫修正後通過第7案第7案是誰"},{"start":12899.937,"end":12924.658,"text":"那我講那就是在第5行在研議在收出養製度中運用幼兒專責醫師對兒童進行健康與發展評估那後面間接費用這一些是不是可以刪除一直到接下來就到"},{"start":12926.63,"end":12927.07,"text":"蘇瑞仁可以嗎?"},{"start":12951.415,"end":12973.476,"text":"我們就是要運用幼兒專責醫師的制度來對這個孩子去做健康跟發展的一個評估因為目前就是幼兒專責醫師跟社政跟衛生要做一個連結尤其是我們對於出養的孩子"},{"start":12973.916,"end":12976.457,"text":"這個案件就是醫師漏接根本沒有醫師介入脆弱家庭才是我們最關心的你現在講"},{"start":13000.393,"end":13020.346,"text":"會去找專責醫師會上網會一大堆表格要弄一弄的有那個能力的家庭也不需要了啦我們已經就是透過地方政府那個有被安置的177名孩子照冊送給地方的就是要去做一個指定"},{"start":13023.5,"end":13050.609,"text":"跟委員說明一下這個是幼兒專責醫師制度本來就有這個機制在做處理的所以我們同樣的意思就是說不需要再特別講說臨近衛生所或社區診所因為本來就有這個機制那在這個機制底下所做的對小孩子的健康或者是發展的評估都是免費都是公務預算在支撐"},{"start":13054.043,"end":13075.653,"text":"那個署長偏遠地區跟原鄉地區根本沒有兒科醫師那不是兒科專責醫師你要不要看到情況是嚴重盧先生你都沒有講話剛才報告齁因為專責醫師如果在偏遠地區的話是由衛生所的醫師來取代這個角色"},{"start":13083.437,"end":13107.013,"text":"所以可以修正後通過好那就按剛剛署長修正文字後通過謝謝委員關心社工人力的問題那剛也跟那個徒委員有做一些討論跟溝通那我們是建議從倒數第5行開始的後段原建請衛福部以一個月內"},{"start":13107.893,"end":13111.054,"text":"好,請問提案委員有沒有意見好,那就按修正通過。來,第9案"},{"start":13146.643,"end":13161.606,"text":"第9案教育部配合辦理好第9案通過來第10案第10案的部分因為我們剛剛有跟林委員做了一些溝通那主要是"},{"start":13162.624,"end":13186.824,"text":"在我們今天報告也對於這個出養前的照顧跟評估機制另外也改變了這個相關的一些安置的流程就會納入委託安置所以我們在第1、2、3、4第4行就是病修正這個部分我們改成納入委託安置的程序病"},{"start":13187.905,"end":13215.734,"text":"修正直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則那要求地方主管機關那把那個有關居托人員建立應改為這幾個字三除那要求地方主管機關那建立強制就先保留拿掉那建立仿是後面都一樣"},{"start":13221.059,"end":13223.343,"text":"先跟林委員先做一些溝通。"},{"start":13228.077,"end":13255.003,"text":"第11案是倒數第二行就是建立這個居托服務中心跟媒合機構的共訪準則因為實際上是最重要是去做訪視輔導所以我們建議是把那個案改成共訪那後面那個就不是行政程序啦所以是不是以明確行政程序這個部分就刪除"},{"start":13258.268,"end":13283.639,"text":"衛生福利部部長、教育部、內政部、內政部、內政部、內政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政部、外政"},{"start":13289.917,"end":13313.992,"text":"11案,他剛剛講是11案,他把那個項改成要求好,可以嗎?好,那就修正通過,來第12案這個是可以嗎?可以啊,可以12案沒問題,好,那就通過來第13案"},{"start":13315.354,"end":13335.755,"text":"謝謝委員關心那13案倒數第三行要求衛福部應將相關後面加幾個字重大兒童及少年虐待加這幾個字以及最後的一段話以立各單位後續協助處置那個及時介入改成後續協助謝謝委員同意"},{"start":13339.5,"end":13340.101,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13359.241,"end":13359.741,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長好來部長請"},{"start":13389.369,"end":13412.614,"text":"委員好部長我們衛生福利部存在的目的是做什麼那我在衛福部的網站首頁就看到上面寫著我唸給大家聽促進全民健康與福祉最值得民眾信賴的部會"},{"start":13417.103,"end":13428.87,"text":"第一個目標是健全社會福利服務體系優先照顧弱勢族群"},{"start":13436.334,"end":13459.785,"text":"這當然是我們的目標,但是就是說我們需要整個體系動起來才能夠逐步的達到我們這樣子的一個目標好,那我就直接問,這個粗洋家庭,這弱勢脆弱的迷茫的家庭我想延伸家庭最重要啦,像這個小孩子凱凱"},{"start":13462.182,"end":13476.273,"text":"看報告真的是俯首八道第一個,外祖母阿嬤,我阿嬤,要照顧她說她沒辦法照顧的原因是經濟上的問題第二次出院的保姆,你們說他沒夠資格第三個,這是在外勞,跟護士"},{"start":13486.38,"end":13507.499,"text":"你現在第一家庭就是說祂阿嬤最好、最會照顧的會關心這個小孩一定是他的家人嘛那經濟上有問題你就經濟好你就幫他支援就好那你待會就要改來改去難道這個轉來轉去是有抽成可以抽還是說有績效有獎金是不是"},{"start":13508.656,"end":13529.662,"text":"所以說我們這次的檢討報告裡面就未來這個事情的話就不是有這個媒合機構去決定說要不要出亞因為這如果他是經濟的問題那就是必須地方政府能夠提供協助來解決他的經濟問題基本上就不需要出亞"},{"start":13531.953,"end":13539.596,"text":"出行是下下策,這個大家觀念要改一下,那第二個說這個小孩子一歲會罵髒話,胡說八道,我生死的孩子,我跟你們講,女孩子說話很慢,我現在還有兩個孫子,三個孫子,那女孩子說話都只好一話兩話就直接說話,"},{"start":13555.799,"end":13561.543,"text":"這個社工有問題,這個出糧家庭那更有問題所以大家用卡陶駕駛也知道,這金門都軟木一條嘛那這個小孩子又是在新北、台北這個是資源相對豐富的地方那如果我們拼圖就弄壁了,要吃土啊"},{"start":13585.635,"end":13609.575,"text":"所以這個你沒有在講這個我們聽不下去啦所以部長你要好好檢討真的是要虛心深入的這是刻苦民心啦再來什麼這個兒童聯盟孩子被拘捕了阿婆幫他做什麼事情既然連官務、葬儀都要拘捕葬儀社人免費來挽回"},{"start":13615.655,"end":13619.859,"text":"目前有8個是審查得到,我們的媒合機構有8個是我們得到許可的"},{"start":13640.758,"end":13661.691,"text":"這些各個媒合機構、聯盟、NGO我想還是要評鑑要向議員評鑑、社會評鑑那個表演我覺得這個譬如說一個基金會他的董事會當然這個董事會是一個然後再來是行政團隊"},{"start":13663.132,"end":13683.951,"text":"都要嚴格的來監督、評鑑、把關、考核不然的話這個是笑死人所以在這次檢討報告裡面我有特別提出來對於這一些媒合機構的話我們還是必須要在許可辦法裡面需要加強監督"},{"start":13689.304,"end":13705.528,"text":"再來,像我們在屏東、在鄉下、在原鄉村長跟里長很恐怖村長跟里長還有林長你們一定要善用哪一個家庭有問題,像在鄉下哪一個家庭小孩子有磁環,你問誰最準?問村長"},{"start":13709.366,"end":13726.013,"text":"阿你問領導 哇 都中情情色色 有內代的情勢嗎 那個人問領導就知道了所以你們要善用這一塊 所以這個真的是非常重要"},{"start":13726.753,"end":13748.343,"text":"所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善都要改善不要你只出錢給管事管事離落落現在去到聯盟去到NGO你再外來外去出洋什麼認定了不再來一個問題我們職災有職災的地圖我們這個保姆有沒有設保姆地圖"},{"start":13756.093,"end":13782.658,"text":"這我們可以來做哪裡有出問題都秀出來這樣一目了然比照那個環境部那個職災職災或者勞動部的職災地圖把它秀出來因為現在這個這種小孩子我們可以來研究這個部分當然他會比較容易涉及到的是隱私的問題那這部分的話如何去取得那個平衡"},{"start":13783.458,"end":13805.075,"text":"公部門應該沒有這個問題啦,好不好?然後出了問題就甩鍋給社工,社工有夠衰捏,是去獎駕,又大家說等兩回,我覺得很替社工不捨捏。出事的保姆也是本來就有應付的責任。"},{"start":13809.974,"end":13829.243,"text":"這個案件喔,大家看到大家都很不捨啦,什麼一個孩子把他打下去,讓他站著睡,整個眉毛,肩膀把他扳掉掉,躺在那裡還有吃粉給他戳傷,吃粉捏,粉給他戳捏,他的生殖器把他燒到黑黑的,把他槓架卡在他腦袋裡,腦袋裡還有出血,世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎?"},{"start":13836.585,"end":13846.757,"text":"這個還在雙北這種地方我覺得我們真的是這些大人真的是好好的檢討了真的太糟糕太糟糕了那再來我就要問"},{"start":13848.782,"end":13872.928,"text":"額科專責醫師陳慶慧也問了額科專責醫師在這個案子裡面完全沒有角色,完全漏接,完全沒有那我們額科專責醫師要去上網要添資料什麼什麼什麼我跟大家報告,要去找到這裡的資源,還可以資料聽到這麼好那個家庭不用理了啦"},{"start":13876.632,"end":13897.076,"text":"會不會絕對是那些很脆弱的那些單親的那些那些家庭所以兒科醫師要怎麼加強角色再來要怎麼讓他們連結是不是每一個都要兒科醫師評估表專責醫師評估表這個真的是有效的因為兒科醫師也有一點點勁兒子三個月上學看一看將來敏感度高一點馬上通報這個部長兒科醫師的角色再說一次"},{"start":13905.9,"end":13915.546,"text":"有這個幼兒專責醫師他有兩個對於小孩子來有兩個收小孩子的這個機制第一個叫做這個"},{"start":13918.108,"end":13938.304,"text":"自行收案自行收案的意思就是說在我們上去年11月以前的話那就是有小孩子3歲以下小孩子來看診的時候你就要跟家家屬提說有這樣的一個計畫那詢問說他是不是願意加入若願意的話那"},{"start":13939.545,"end":13954.033,"text":"幾個要填的這些東西的話就醫師來填他又等於收案了那第二種情形在去年的11月以後的話是新生兒通通要收案"},{"start":13955.914,"end":13973.382,"text":"這部分就有接生的婦產科醫師幫忙去問家屬是不是能夠願意指定他想要的幼兒專責醫師是誰幫忙他去填寫這是致險收案的部分"},{"start":13974.537,"end":13994.739,"text":"那第二個叫做指定收案指定收案就是我們這一次這一種錯過家庭啦臨時安置的收出養過程臨時安置這個就一定要收所以要由那個社會局把這個名單要交給衛生局衛生局的話就會去派案"},{"start":13995.76,"end":14020.354,"text":"那這些我們在事後的話我們必須要去追蹤如果在一定時間目前的話我們是6個月這前6個月比方說我剛剛提到的新生兒6個月之內他還沒有指定的話那這個名單也會到衛生局那邊去就由衛生局來詢問家屬直接他來拍案就這樣"},{"start":14021.394,"end":14046.646,"text":"那這些幼兒專責醫師他就有義務要定期對這個小孩子做一些健檢大概是這樣所以如果有一些餓餓的現象或者是說通知他來做健檢他不出現通知了一次兩次不出現的話那就回到要報給這個社安網讓社工可以再去追蹤大概是這樣子"},{"start":14048.462,"end":14069.082,"text":"你們的理想很好,就是沒有落實啦!你的Network好像很完善,也不是沒有落實啦!所以這麼老那些老,我就覺得非常可惜,又有專責醫師的任揚也才三十幾%而已嘛!目前四十幾啦!"},{"start":14070.882,"end":14079.655,"text":"那這個這麼好的那就應該要加強學齡前的小孩子你要學你這個小子怎麼沒有那個要"},{"start":14080.816,"end":14102.227,"text":"密切的追蹤啦而且我們希望那些早聊的個案更早一點對我們每一個小孩我們都不能放過啦不能不能放棄任何一個小孩這沒人要生孩子 孩子有夠久啊你小孩還要綁 還要撈他這大小都要打屁股的捏部長你今天是有道歉的 怎麼沒人要跟你衝利不適的呢我看你今天這麼認真 又這麼謙虛齁"},{"start":14104.628,"end":14107.571,"text":"好 謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢那接下來我們請徐巧興委員進行質詢"},{"start":14138.596,"end":14141.999,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想請薛部長好 來部長請"},{"start":14146.465,"end":14171.006,"text":"委員好部長您知道衛福部前幾天門口放了很多的花那是民眾要送給凱凱的請問部長您有看過嗎因為這幾天是在要來立法院所以我的辦公的地方是在機關署所以你沒有看到那個花上面大家留的卡片寫的內容"},{"start":14171.787,"end":14187.877,"text":"那其實呢就是有很多的民眾看到這個事情之後很傷心也希望未來可以幫他討公道所以就放了很多的花在衛福部的門口比方說呢我有看到其中一張卡片他寫說對不起凱凱你不痛了我們會努力讓裡面的討回公道"},{"start":14191.099,"end":14211.949,"text":"但是昨天晚上左右的時候突然有網友告訴我們說衛福部突然把這些花都清空了請問去了哪都丟掉了嗎那請問有沒有衛福部其他的同仁是清楚這件事情的因為昨天網路上面有非常多人都在詢問我們送給凱凱的花去哪裡了"},{"start":14215.291,"end":14244.815,"text":"這我再了解一下你今天都來做這個報告了我們衛福部沒有任何一位同仁知道發生什麼事情知道是誰做了這樣的決定嗎?委員部長我相信你可能你的辦公位置不一定在那裡或是你不一定清楚但是今天在場有這麼多的衛福部的官員都在沒有人知道是誰把話都丟掉了嗎?這業務單位那個可能是這樣這個秘書處等等這種這種內部的一些單位所做決定這我們回去再聊"},{"start":14245.275,"end":14269.562,"text":"那請問一下您覺得作為一位部長您覺得民眾所送的花那一兩天之內就突然被衛福部我相信是衛福部啦不好意思如果不是的話但是因為外面的人不太會去把那些花去清掉那顯然比較像是你們衛福部去把民眾所送的花希望能夠告這個凱凱在天之靈的一些衛界都丟掉了部長您覺得合理嗎"},{"start":14270.596,"end":14293.151,"text":"當然不太合理,因為這個是民眾表達他的意願的一個儀式,所以這個不應該輕易的就把它移除了,我回去我會再…請去了解到底是誰所做的決定,那我相信這個部分也必須要說清楚,那對外來負責,這是最基本的,因為大家看到了,民眾都非常的氣憤,覺得我們要送給凱凱的花,你怎麼一兩天就丟掉了,難道你們是不願意讓人民的聲音出現在衛福部的門口嗎?"},{"start":14300.276,"end":14328.469,"text":"所以請這個部份部長回去檢討好嗎好那再來呢我今天剛剛大家都有問到說兒福聯盟之所以能夠接受新北市政府的委託出養收養這個做相關的服務是衛福部所發的許可對吧許可是我們發的許可是你們發的那所以說按照兒童及少年福利權益保障法的15條第4項關於出養媒合服務者的條件都有寫這是中央的法規對吧"},{"start":14331.496,"end":14336.72,"text":"衛福部不能什麼事情都丟給疫情因為我問一下我們是多久要對業者進行評鑑的?三年一次那請教最近一次做評鑑是在民國幾年?"},{"start":14353.357,"end":14358.681,"text":"所以在110年到111年中間本來要做一次嘛,剛好那個時候就是疫情"},{"start":14375.313,"end":14401.191,"text":"那不是啊,疫情已經過了也好一陣子了,你們怎麼都還沒有做?那現在是因為我們這個事情爆發出來之後,我們才發現要做還是本來就安排了?你們說本來就安排,可是對民眾來說就是你們衛福部當時應該做的事情沒有做到因為不管是從網站上或是你們所說的,就是107年的是最新的可是已經過期了那請問這方面的一些責任跟問題,那衛福部怎麼看?"},{"start":14404.822,"end":14429.1,"text":"當然這我們其實除了評鑑之外的話每年還有這個督導考察好那請問這個評鑑的部分什麼時候會完成公布給外界做參考應該今年之內就會完成今年只有8家應該很快只有您說的嘛只有8家所以我請問一下做這樣子一個評鑑從開始到完成需要花多久的時間幾個月我們一般來講幾個月的時間能夠完成這樣子的一個評估報告"},{"start":14433.816,"end":14459.818,"text":"這個是有幾個程序要做第一個就是要召集這個評鑑委員然後對於評鑑委員的部分的話大家要先取得行前的共識然後就是去訪查去實地訪查去看他的資料那回來的話還要再做整理之後的話還要做那我們就問這個整個程序我們預計是要進行幾個月從一開始然後到完成評估報告"},{"start":14462.065,"end":14473.313,"text":"這個因為一家一家輪流去做,所以大概是在大概5、6個月之內5、6個月,那我們現在往前推5、6個月有疫情嗎?"},{"start":14474.511,"end":14503.206,"text":"疫情已經結束啦所以我的意思是說您剛剛所說的這都是藉口從人民的角度來都是藉口如果從一開始要來做評鑑到完成您說的大概是半年的期間疫情已經結束超過半年了那為什麼這個評鑑到現在還過了這麼久沒有做這個也是你們要檢討最後一點時間我想看一下那個全責的這個部分這那張圖片幫我放一下這張圖片這最後我要來跟部長您說一下"},{"start":14503.706,"end":14524.663,"text":"就是說這個全責不明的問題希望中央能夠做比較一致性的法規的規範因為我們可以看到我們從新北市政府到兒福聯盟然後到這個保姆的訪視12次一年然後臺北市社會局這邊訪視的是4次一年可是我是看整個裡面報告之後我們發現這12次的訪視記錄不會提供給臺北市的社會局"},{"start":14529.026,"end":14550.416,"text":"社會局的4次訪視紀錄李當也沒有提供給這個兒福聯盟這邊所以原本一年可以做的是12加416次的訪問可是因為說中間我沒有相關的規定讓彼此資訊透明化所以彼此都不知道以這個案子來說如果資訊有互通是有幫助的怎麼說呢因為這個兒福聯盟他們去訪視前面有兩次被拒絕嗎對不對"},{"start":14554.938,"end":14573.715,"text":"可是臺北市社會局不知道所以那個保姆他講說我們這裡有COVID-19確診要延期之後他以為是第一次所以他就延期了但如果臺北市社會局知道兒福聯盟這邊曾經兩度被拒絕他們就不可能這麼輕放一次一次嘛所以我的意思是說這個所謂的"},{"start":14575.736,"end":14591.549,"text":"12次跟4次未來在資訊上面的透明化跟雙邊的這個協商是不是我們中央能夠來做規定讓地方在執行相關業務的時候可以更了解過程當中所有的社工曾經到到府訪查的記錄是什麼部長"},{"start":14592.31,"end":14610.805,"text":"那這一個部分的話也是這次我們檢討以後需要改善的也就是說以現階段的狀況就是社會局就把事情的丟給兒福聯盟之後的話他就不再去對於這一個小孩子去做必要的一個訪查"},{"start":14611.846,"end":14636.093,"text":"有的只有說因為監督保姆的這個機構臺北市他有去做但是做的頻率因為沒有接收到說這個是一個特殊個案所以他就按照他原來的三個月一次去做對所以這個部分我們整個程序的資料的互通程序的透明化麻煩我們衛福部這邊要統一讓地方執行上能夠更順暢好嗎謝謝"},{"start":14638.374,"end":14642.897,"text":"好,謝謝徐巧欣委員,我們現在休息30分鐘,大家用餐。"},{"start":16448.493,"end":16451.654,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請圖權級委員進行質詢好 謝謝召委請一下我們那個薛部長好 部長請"},{"start":16478.613,"end":16506.978,"text":"部長好委員好那當然其實今天早上發的這個突發的狀況其實我可以感覺其實我們薛部長應該其實在執政黨內其實應該人緣也是蠻好的那我請問一下因為據我們了解今天早上的情形我們王玉敏我們的召委他在2012年到2020年的時候其實那時候就擔任立委而且那個時候也早就已經是我們"},{"start":16507.738,"end":16527.566,"text":"而福聯盟他在那邊任職董事也那時候參與的也是我們衛環委員會那後來2016年的時候有擔任我們的召委擔任主席那我們現在執政黨裡面有很多的委員也是在衛環委員會現在是在衛環當時也是在衛環"},{"start":16530.347,"end":16557.658,"text":"只是我相信在2016年那個時候也有討論很多關於兒少我們相關的議題可是不知道為什麼今天我們討論這個社會安全網的問題的時候會針對這個主席迴避會有這麼大的問題我們是討論這個通案社會安全網那我覺得今天是不是因為我們針對衛福部的檢討報告因為很多大眾覺得"},{"start":16559.519,"end":16585.568,"text":"這太草率需要去退回那我們來講是不是今天大家是不是在護航我們的衛福部那部長絕對沒有這個意見應該這個委員應該不管是執政黨或是在野黨對衛福部的監督都是必要的啦所以我想也不會是涉及到"},{"start":16585.708,"end":16590.511,"text":"對,因為我們認為2016同樣的事情同樣的狀況當時不質疑我們主席迴避的問題為什麼同樣的狀況那今天就質疑我們主席要迴避討論一個社會安全網給大眾一個說清楚講明白的機會我覺得應該沒有這麼難而且讓我們衛福部來針對問題解決問題我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":16612.422,"end":16640.977,"text":"好 謝謝部長立委部分的話那當然立委有他的理由這我們不辯評好沒關係那只是說向大家瞭解一下當時的時空背景我們不希望這個質詢變成政治的操作政治的炒作那我請問一下我們兒福聯盟是不是全國性的組織是那針對兒福聯盟所以他是全國性的組織所以其實他應該是不屬於地方政府管轄的對不對"},{"start":16642.497,"end":16666.406,"text":"他就是教育部主管的文教基金會對,所以他是全國性的組織嘛那而且重點,兒福聯盟他這個許可是不是由我們衛福部來發放的就這個收出養的這個業務的許可的話對,所以針對收出養這部分我們衛福部是監管的全責單位嘛"},{"start":16667.472,"end":16687.97,"text":"好,那所以我們針對我們這一次喔,我們的孽兒的致死案那我請問一下這次涉案的保姆是兒福聯盟的嗎?是由他交給他們,他跟他有合作的關係,那這就是一種契約的行為那所以兒福聯盟是由我們衛福部來監管的嗎?"},{"start":16690.028,"end":16716.819,"text":"對 但是就業務上面的話所以沒關係重點所以其實嚴格來講這次虐兒致死案我們衛福部其實是有這個監督的責任這應該沒有問題吧我們是對這個機構來做監督對 所以我們不會去進入美案或者是例行日常所以我們沒關係所以我們兒福聯盟這一件虐兒致死案"},{"start":16717.279,"end":16735.197,"text":"其實衛福部針對監管的部分是有一個不可逃脫的責任這當然是所以我們會加強監管所以據我們了解在112年12月25號我們市府臺北市政府社會局說他就有接獲"},{"start":16736.238,"end":16751.17,"text":"而保案通報那當然他也立刻派員那後來市府受理通報後這個是針對新聞稿然後這個據我們查詢也是這個樣子那有層下我們衛福部的"},{"start":16752.233,"end":16778.366,"text":"保護服務司來釐清是否符合重大兒童及少年虐待事件防制小組實施計畫那當時我們保護司表示這個計畫是針對兒少遭父母監護人或其他實際照顧者重大虐待的事件也就是我們講的家內但是這件行為人是保母是屬於家外所以不適用"},{"start":16778.946,"end":16803.355,"text":"後來社會局也在12月27號去洽詢針對這個部分但是社家署表示因涉及署內跨科室的業務是否要召開重大檢討會議尚在研議中可是目前社會局說其實一直以來後面他們都沒有接獲任何的回應那我想請問一下我們衛福部在這個是監督之下"},{"start":16803.775,"end":16819.889,"text":"我們這個機制我們覺得是不是失禮是不是應該要好好地來檢討一下這個是事後啦那這不管檢討會議怎麼樣召開的話都不會防止說這位流行兒童他的這個死亡"},{"start":16820.629,"end":16840.001,"text":"所以事後的檢討事後的檢討已經一個兒童因為這一個這一個整個的機制結果就是死亡這當然是重大惡劣這為什麼還要問根本不需要問的事情可是可是這個有洽詢我們衛福部"},{"start":16841.962,"end":16848.688,"text":"衛福部還回復說這個是屬於家內的不是他們規範的所以部長是不是我們下面的這些承辦的主管針對這一部分而且當時人家社會局已經通報了他說這個不在我這個"},{"start":16868.824,"end":16873.366,"text":"通報是一件事情他本來就應該要通報讓我們知道有這件事情發生但是他去詢問說要不要開這個就多餘因為他不懂得應該是往他的"},{"start":16897.975,"end":16915.606,"text":"主管去詢問要不要開那這部分當然我也希望針對這已經看到這個機制上後來我也聽說後來我們衛福部也把保姆也納入所以才去做討論所以當初應該我們下面的承辦的"},{"start":16916.747,"end":16933.461,"text":"對於家內家外有不同的見解所以認定是家內所以當時不受理後來因為事件爆發之後才把保姆列入家內所以我希望衛福部針對這部分好好的檢討因為我們可以看得到這個事情又是民眾舉發檢舉之後這事情才出來"},{"start":16936.583,"end":16959.927,"text":"我覺得這跟蘇丹紅真的是異曲同工之妙都是民眾舉發我們衛福部才出來處理我覺得前面所有的機制又失靈了等到民眾舉發我們再來好好的檢討那當然雖然沒有超前部署但是亡羊補牢也是沒有辦法中的辦法希望針對這些部分我們好好的去做改善"},{"start":16960.607,"end":16976.55,"text":"當然所以今天提出來的一個檢討報告也就是針對這一些問題好我希望這檢討報告還是要好好加強因為社會大眾對這個檢討報告是真的不滿意那我再請問一下我們請我們社公司我請問一下我們目前"},{"start":16987.864,"end":17013.089,"text":"根據我們統計,全國政府部門社工有多少人?我們目前有的是一年底的數字大概是7,928那是公的嘛,我看一下施的好像總共施的好像有一萬出夠,所以總共一萬八千多對不對?好,那我請問一下,我們現在社福相關部門,這個社工目前來講到底夠不夠?"},{"start":17015.267,"end":17039.464,"text":"如果以我們就是全國人口的社工的人力比的確跟其他國家比是來的負擔高一點所以我也看你們去年新聞就有報出你衛福部有針對全國社會安全網的計畫你們就有說要增加4190人的社工可是據我們了解目前只找到3400人那你們的報告從頭到尾也沒有"},{"start":17039.964,"end":17057.1,"text":"提到你要的人數是4000多人那現在只達到3000多人那這些問題不用去檢討嗎還是等到事件爆發的時候我們再來檢討要增加人數跟委員報告的確行政院核定給我們社安網的人力第二期是從11年到114年"},{"start":17059.162,"end":17067.525,"text":"那總共要增加的人數每年的都不一樣那我們每個月都有做這個禁用人數的一個統計那也跟縣市來檢討說怎麼協助他們可以增加所以因為我們希望針對社工這一部分要盡快補強因為你們有提出這個9點的改進措施那目前我們看到你這社工數就不夠"},{"start":17080.549,"end":17096.059,"text":"你提這個9點措施我想請問一下你到時候提出就算再好的計畫沒有人去做沒有人去執行到時候一樣是漏洞百出那你今天提出這個計畫你並沒有提出說如何去補強這個社工人數啊"},{"start":17098.033,"end":17113.91,"text":"提出9點方面的改善措施接下來當然就是要做這件事情針對這些改善措施我們會召集地方政府那一起來做討論需要多少的人力有什麼樣的困難需要多少的預算經費"},{"start":17115.632,"end":17144.883,"text":"那其實針對這個社工招募卜益據我們了解111年我們了解我們這個兒福聯盟他這個總資產有45.9億可是在薪資的部分據我們查他只佔2億所以算起來這個前線的社工他算起來領下來都不到4萬塊可是我們蓋大樓動不動就3億4億那錢這樣子用不知道部長衛福部這邊知道他們使用錢的情形"},{"start":17145.203,"end":17161.426,"text":"我們會進一步去做了解因為我剛剛有跟委員報告那兒福聯盟是屬於文教基金會它的主管機關應該是教育部所以這個部分的話當然我們會跟教育部一起來討論我希望這個部分還是要多注意因為"},{"start":17162.346,"end":17187.365,"text":"這個有關於我們社工招募的問題而且我們了解他收入9億裡面很多都是捐款可是他每年用喔用不到50%那我不知道說人家捐款捐那麼多你很多的費用你不去用在這些該使用的上面爆發很多社工招募不易等等的問題然後等到推了很多的政策跟措施卻沒有社工去執行我覺得這個部長應該要好好來去重視喔"},{"start":17190.427,"end":17214.665,"text":"因為我覺得這個事情爆發居然已經爆發了可是我針對衛福部針對一個良心的建議從我們前面食藥署再到這個虐兒事件全部都是民眾檢舉像食安五環到最後一環民眾檢舉然後這個虐兒事件也是民眾檢舉再來好好檢討再來好好改善我希望能夠"},{"start":17215.886,"end":17242.192,"text":"衛福部的部分真的要加緊總體檢一下那我們今天也有提案針對我們現時盤點目前所有社福政策緣而缺少的狀況以及檢討方式給社會知悉那今天這個提案報告也出去那希望我們衛福部掌握這些資料好好的檢討改善還有後續的相關資料也請我們衛福部好好的來提供檢討改善謝謝"},{"start":17244.98,"end":17272.88,"text":"好謝謝吳委員的質詢接下來我們請黃秀邦委員進行質詢謝謝主席我們請部長好有請部長可以喝口水還是部長你先休息一下我請次長好了今天次長應該也最清楚有關我們兒福的案件好來那我們請李次長"},{"start":17276.058,"end":17303.72,"text":"委員好市長好市長我想請教就針對這一件凱凱的這個案子如果地方政府如果沒有通報給中央那你們會知道嗎確實是需要透過地方政府的通報因為依法他們發現疑似兒女是跟地方通報那地方發現是一個重大兒女的話就必須跟中央來通報那未來如果"},{"start":17304.915,"end":17330.196,"text":"未來如果地方有這樣子而虐的事件的話因為我剛剛看就是前面幾個委員也有特別提到地方社會局他可能會跟你們請示那就是說要不要開這個而虐的這個重大而虐的會議啊那你們跟大家說可能在不符合什麼樣的法令然後就是說又要詢問那如果未來還有類似事件的話你們是不是有一個"},{"start":17331.918,"end":17337.908,"text":"同整的一個單位或者是一個專責單位而不是說我還要去問哪一個部門是負責這個案件的"},{"start":17340.939,"end":17363.085,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教就是說確實我們過去在重大惡劣這個部分我們會去分發生在哪一個場域有不同的單位來負責那這次我們也發現說其實最好是有一個單位作為一個總窗口然後負責來督導不管是地方政府還是其他我們本部的其他"},{"start":17363.545,"end":17367.048,"text":"我想再請教一下就是說我們有很多就是出養這樣的一個就是都交給民間的這個機構、媒合機構"},{"start":17391.525,"end":17409.492,"text":"那我不知道說你們怎麼去怎麼去認定或者說有什麼樣的機制好去覺得說這個這個機構媒合機構是符合我們所需要的或者是說他是不是有按照我們的規定在進行或者是說比如說這個這個兒童這個幼兒"},{"start":17412.353,"end":17413.234,"text":"所以我們這次針對過去在收出養這個部分就是"},{"start":17441.817,"end":17442.782,"text":"完全由民間團體來負責的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":17445.689,"end":17472.891,"text":"這次我們就有做一些重要的一個檢討包括說出養的必要性的評估應該要回到縣市政府那在等待出養的短暫這個安置應該也有縣市政府來結合他的在地的一個安置的一個資源然後費用要出那如果經費不足我們中央就來提供協助那我們對於這些說出養媒合機構其實除了三年一次的評鑑之外"},{"start":17473.872,"end":17497.843,"text":"每一年其實都還是有業務檢查然後還都有開聯繫會議我們也會再透過強化這些機制然後能夠更清楚的瞭解這些收出養媒合機構是不是有落實那很重要的一點當然就是因為這些孩子的一個媒合到收出養媒合機構都是縣市政府去跟民眾以及媒合這樣的機構"},{"start":17499.484,"end":17516.438,"text":"以這個案子而言其實它是脆弱家庭是已經開案了所以以我們脆弱家庭的一個方式其實是應該每個月還是要去做家庭方式可是後來縣市政府他可能只有針對外祖母這邊做方式可是他忘了"},{"start":17516.843,"end":17544.38,"text":"其實這個孩子也是在等待出養當中他應該也要去做方式所以未來要怎麼避免這樣類似的狀況還有一個就是他原本是在新北那後來他這個保母是在臺北市那怎麼樣去對接把這個整個對孩子最好的方式我覺得這應該是要地方政府或者是媒合機構應該也要有一些對接其實我們在相關的一些兒少的"},{"start":17545.801,"end":17571.137,"text":"保護的相關的案件裡面大概都有一個分工就是說今天他如果換了居住地的話你原來居住的這個縣市你要通知他往哪一個他接下來是往哪一個地方居住他必須要去通知在地的社會局那這個案件其實就是看到是沒有去落實這樣子通知他的小孩的居住有"},{"start":17571.817,"end":17573.158,"text":"更大的缺失可能是在執行面"},{"start":17588.431,"end":17604.838,"text":"在執行面就是說怎麼樣去落實所以我們擔心的就是說每次發生兒孽事件或是有一些重大的兒童的議題的話在立法院這邊都會開一個可能就是專案報告或邀請衛福部這邊來做檢討可是會後之後"},{"start":17607.799,"end":17624.082,"text":"到底地方政府或是我們中央政府或是媒介的這個媒合的機構到底有沒有去落實我覺得這個落實比你訂了好多的這個法條或訂了好多的規則還更重要那怎麼樣去落實我覺得這個中央應該是以一個督導"},{"start":17625.003,"end":17629.725,"text":"這部分我們在這次的檢討報告有提出來這是我們中央對於地方的督導、協助或是協調這部分我們怎麼樣來強化那當然地方政府對於他的業務跟他合作的"},{"start":17657.325,"end":17676.4,"text":"他們自己在社會局處裡面的相關科別的一個溝通協調以及他有委託民間團體的一些合作的一些方案地方政府要負起這樣一個督導協助的責任那我有看到一個改善的計畫可能就是說要強化保姆的訓練"},{"start":17677.861,"end":17697.527,"text":"那還有一個就是增加訪視頻率那我想請教還有一個是辦理保姆評鑑推薦平台那這個好像是我們現在本來就已經在做的嘛對不對你這個訪視的頻率那你現在本來可能一個月一次那你現在是要一個月再增加"},{"start":17698.603,"end":17719.842,"text":"我們這次的檢討跟兩個縣市還有專家學者額蒙一起做的檢討會議當中大家都覺得說應該有提高訪視的必要性可是應該要去看的是什麼樣的情況之下我們要去提高訪視那這個部分我們會在4月底以前我們會再把"},{"start":17720.282,"end":17740.611,"text":"先是政府一起邀請他們一起來開會那這當中我們覺得應該要建立所謂的指引然後這是所謂的check list這是哪一個部分應該要注意到那我們這個部分就會希望在相關的指引相關的一些指標上面做得更加的具體其實現在有可是"},{"start":17741.091,"end":17750.178,"text":"可能還沒有那麼的具體我們是把它做更加的一個具體讓未來的訪視的人員不只是社工去在保姆這邊有一個部分的專業是所謂的教保人員的專業也讓他們知道說怎麼樣去確保整個孩子有沒有受到好的照顧那整個加強訓練這個部分有討論到這兩個部分要去加強一個就是對兒童發展的訓練那這個部分可能就是社工比較缺乏的"},{"start":17767.512,"end":17784.986,"text":"那一個就是額內的辨識的能力的一個訓練那這個部分我們也會希望兩個方面都能夠一起來提升那剛剛市長特別提到就是說訪市的頻率要增加那其實你也知道社工要管的事情真的非常的多"},{"start":17786.066,"end":17810.16,"text":"我每次如果經過縣府的那個社會處的你從上面看那個可能到七八點八九點那個燈都還是亮的那我也知道說他們的工作量真的都非常的大那怎麼樣未來如果說這個訪視的頻率要增加的話可能也許工作量也增加了那怎麼樣讓地方的第一線的社工人員有更多的這個資源"},{"start":17812.471,"end":17828.406,"text":"如果說因為這樣的一個訪視的頻率的增加那我們會一併來檢討例如說在社福中心催加因為那個訪視頻率增加可能是在委託安置這個部分還有一個部分就是全日拖的保姆這個部分"},{"start":17828.766,"end":17842.695,"text":"所以我們就會針對在每個社福中心的社工人員是否有增加的必要以及在各縣市的居托中心這些保姆的訪視輔導員有沒有增加的必要我們會一併都來做檢討我希望說你們也要成為這個社工人員最佳的後盾因為真的確實如果不給他們這個資源的話其實也很難去"},{"start":17857.467,"end":17870.724,"text":"在去年發生的事情在桃園某私立托嬰中心在去年的時候有托育人員涉嫌對幼兒施暴、打巴掌、灌水"},{"start":17871.525,"end":17896.764,"text":"那其實類似這樣的一個狀況可能家長看到也都會非常痛心那我們針對這個就是當時那個桃園市的社會局他們是處以裁罰這個機構的行為人就是罰錢那要求工作人員停止職務那我想請教就是說類似如果這麼嚴重的事情是不是"},{"start":17904.167,"end":17913.64,"text":"這依我們相關的法律規定如果發生額內案件這個托嬰中心跟縣市政府的社會局他必須找所有的家長一起來召開會議"},{"start":17915.101,"end":17943.738,"text":"讓所有在這邊受托的家長知道說這個托嬰中心有發生這樣一個事情那如果說家長他想要轉托的話縣市政府要幫他協助他轉換這個就是一個真實的案例啦那個縣市政府其實他地方的這種托嬰中心其實也很少那這些小朋友想要轉到其他的托嬰中心找不到找不到這是真實的喔是找不到他希望就是說"},{"start":17945.679,"end":17974.546,"text":"沒有足夠的托嬰中心那他只好就要求說不然你就到其他縣市可能就跨縣市了啦所以我就是說最主要可能第一方面如果發生類似這樣的一個狀況那同樣一個這樣的一個托嬰中心裡面的這些幼兒應該縣市政府或者是什麼樣的單位應該要介入然後協助這些幼兒可以轉到其他的這個托嬰中心而不是讓家長自己去找"},{"start":17975.526,"end":17995.336,"text":"確實我們相關的規定就是要求社會局處要協助那可能委員提到就是說可能在他的家長就近的需要的區域裡面沒有適合的一個機構那這個部分其實也可以跟家長討論就是說那是不是可以有居托中心的推薦"},{"start":17995.996,"end":17996.036,"text":"好,我..."},{"start":18020.62,"end":18031.442,"text":"不希望就是說每次發生事情之後我們才在這邊做檢討應該要事先就要把這些事情做好啦好不好繼續加油好謝謝委員好謝謝黃秀帆委員的質詢接下來我們請王正旭委員進行質詢謝謝主席有請部長薛部長好請薛部長是"},{"start":18052.239,"end":18073.573,"text":"委員好學部長好辛苦了我們知道所有的孩子都是家長的寶也是社會的寶更是國家的寶所以首先針對這次的內統事件我想這真的是凸顯出目前在各種政策跟措施上都有一定失靈的地方"},{"start":18074.253,"end":18101.787,"text":"今天也聽到也看到也知道很多的要求還有也做了相關的配套措施這個一定是要有立即改善的必要那如何精進現有的政策讓所有的這些需求者都能夠得到好的照顧跟關懷真的是非常迫切的一個任務所以就麻煩部長繼續擔當因為守護下一代是我們這一代共同的責任這個是非常確定的事情"},{"start":18102.407,"end":18118.518,"text":"所以針對於全國國務委員對這個事件真的都感到非常的痛心也希望能夠透過更完整的檢討避免下一次的發生不過不管如何我們還是很擔心萬一真的有下一個案件會怎麼辦"},{"start":18119.939,"end":18138.932,"text":"就好像今天媒體就爆宅了雖然還沒有確實不過好像表示又通報兩起疑似的那個個案那這個案情當然還在釐清裡面可是比較特別是這兩個個案都涉及了移工的子女而不是我們臺灣自己的子女"},{"start":18139.892,"end":18155.477,"text":"這個突顯出移工子女萬一他們的孩子們也出現類似的問題的時候這個包括醫療的、健康的照護可能也需要透過部裡面多加以關心因為依據報載"},{"start":18159.538,"end":18183.185,"text":"這個儀式的個案裡面是因為諾魯病毒而致死我們知道依照台灣的這個健康照護的能力要讓諾魯病死讓兒童致死表示說在治療上他一定是受到很大的耽擱跟影響才會出現這樣的問題所以我們也知道諾魯病毒其實只要透過勤洗手就能夠有機會去減少或改善這個"},{"start":18192.592,"end":18206.604,"text":"這兩個案子有一個案子是臺北市的病童已經死亡到院的時候已經死亡在生前有就醫的紀錄醫師的診斷是急性腸胃炎"},{"start":18210.218,"end":18226.136,"text":"但是他沒有做任何的病毒的採檢所以現在是在司法的程序當中等司法相應的結果才能夠確定他的死因"},{"start":18227.658,"end":18248.373,"text":"第二個案子是在桃園的一個案子病童送到台北來台北這邊的診斷仍然也是急性腸胃炎因為急性腸胃炎有時候會脫水所以他來的時候狀況也不是很好"},{"start":18250.154,"end":18264.908,"text":"醫院把他收到ICU去目前經過治療之後有比較穩定但是醫院同時有發現說有外傷的一個現象所以醫院也做了額內的通報"},{"start":18266.689,"end":18280.64,"text":"這個部份的話這個第二個案子的話我們希望說當病頭那這個比較穩定的時候那我們再進入這一個是否有額內的這樣的一個相關的一個調查那"},{"start":18281.76,"end":18301.207,"text":"這兩個案子因為牽涉到的都是逃逸移工所生的小孩子那這個媽媽本身應該是沒有能力去照顧而委託其他的機構團體或者是這個她的友人去做照顧的"},{"start":18301.767,"end":18329.174,"text":"那這部分的話當然會涉及到逃逸移工還有逃逸移工所生的小孩子要怎麼樣去協助他等等這些相關的這些措施那目前的話這些在這個中央的層級包括衛福部包括移民署那包括勞動部等等這些我們有一個機制是可以來協助這一個但是一個很重要的就是"},{"start":18330.254,"end":18350.935,"text":"這些要找出來這是比較困難的一個所以這個部分的話當然是涉及到這個部分但是地方在做這個接受到這個通報之後那也有往衛福部這邊來通知那衛福部這邊的話因為接收到不管是這個"},{"start":18358.923,"end":18371.096,"text":"這並不是區分這些什麼樣的案子是這些的一個重點重點是到底要不要去辨識說它是否就是這個"},{"start":18378.104,"end":18387.917,"text":"尤其是一個已經死亡了那已經進入檢調一個還在的那這一個部分的話應該是往這一個方向這兒童的最佳利益去思考"},{"start":18388.337,"end":18408.611,"text":"是 所以就麻煩不管是中央或地方只要是兒童不管他是什麼樣的身份我們都必須要從臺灣可以去幫助兒童的這個立場來做好這些事情是好 謝謝那照顧下一代守護下一代都是政府應該盡的責任也是國人很高的期許"},{"start":18409.671,"end":18436.603,"text":"針對兒童有更完整的保護跟照顧都是政府很重要的責任所以本期今天要特別關注的是我們除了一些該有的對兒童的保護以外兒童的醫療的權益其實我本身是一個癌症科的醫師當然對於如果兒童他有同樣的這些癌症問題的時候我們有沒有更好的方式來讓這樣的就醫過程可以更順利也可以順利的康復"},{"start":18437.643,"end":18439.427,"text":"部長,你們知道臺灣有一個叫兒童醫療輔導師這樣的角色"},{"start":18443.438,"end":18470.919,"text":"這我們同仁有跟我有做一點說明這不是一個很普遍的一個不是一個很普遍的需求還是說期待我們未來有可能的話呢進入再做評估啦因為他所服務的對象到底是哪一些人他需要什麼特別的一些專業的這一個能力這都還需要再做討論是因為我們知道兒童整個診療的需求"},{"start":18472.06,"end":18496.707,"text":"包括兒童醫院的建設還有如何能夠讓整體的尤其是重症的這些兒童的醫療需求來做哪一些更好的處理我們可以根據現在的資料看到其實臺大兒童醫院也好或馬街兒童醫院也好事實上他們是針對於這樣的需求有在做各方面的努力我們知道醫療輔導師其實他是有他的特色"},{"start":18497.547,"end":18523.925,"text":"他的特色就是可以陪伴兒童在整個重症的醫療過程當中如何能夠協同整個醫療團隊來讓他的這個診療過程可以更順利包括減少這個兒童在就醫期間會因為他在受到就醫的不同的這種各方面的影響而導致抗拒或者是心理的壓力或者是甚至後來因為家長"},{"start":18524.565,"end":18524.585,"text":"臺灣的確"},{"start":18549.679,"end":18570.114,"text":"每一年看起來是都有逐漸在增加的過程包括每一年在台灣幾乎每一天都會有一個新的兒童會被診斷是癌症那這個癌症不只是兒癌包括血液癌以外很多都是來自於身體的各方面的癌症那這種整個診療其實是非常的長"},{"start":18571.474,"end":18588.747,"text":"有的是需要好幾個禮拜的時間有的是需要更久甚至是好幾個月的時間所以這部分如果有相關的能力來做處理的話對這個病人或是他的家長是有很大的幫助那不知道最近有一部電影叫做BIG"},{"start":18590.468,"end":18610.921,"text":"教育部長有沒有去看過這部電影目前還沒有機會去看如果有時間的話或者是真的需要稍微做情緒上的舒緩的話這部電影我是真的很推薦包括在現場的所有的大家可以有機會去看這部電影"},{"start":18613.762,"end":18636.173,"text":"因為他是很溫馨的很感人的去描述這個兒童的癌症病人如何透過現有的醫療能夠讓他們順利的康復那同時很溫馨的去描述家長還有醫療團隊中間如何能夠用好的方式去讓這個疾病的康復過程是順利的而且是非常的具有"},{"start":18637.754,"end":18664.646,"text":"一個溫馨的力量去幫助兒童們解決他在就醫當中很多很多的困難所以我們也知道如果能夠透過這些好的教育方式讓全臺灣的民眾都可以更知道如何能夠有效的陪伴的同時讓整個醫療會更順利的話那這樣的這個兒童醫療輔導師的角色就可以更凸顯出他的重要性出來我們可以看得出來其實在全球"},{"start":18665.566,"end":18682.595,"text":"最發達的國家在醫療上面包括美國跟加拿大他們的確有在很早幾乎在15年前就感受到這個需求所以他們有很好的建制包括其實還透過醫院的經營預算的同時包括政府也會撥預算來協助這個"},{"start":18686.357,"end":18690.781,"text":"臺灣相對是有基金會在協助處理這一塊不過相對來講就沒有辦法像其他的這個醫療先進國家有這麼好的這個人力跟處理的模式"},{"start":18709.719,"end":18735.225,"text":"主要原因是包括在要求變成輔導師他真的需要一個很完整的教育跟好的認證的過程那臺灣這部分很希望將來有機會透過這方面的機制來幫助我們來建立這樣的人才同時提供給醫療院所來幫助尤其是在兒童醫院裡面可以協助整個醫療的過程"},{"start":18736.925,"end":18750.691,"text":"這次有請這個部長這邊來研討看看將來政府有沒有可能有辦法去用專案或研究案的方式來讓這樣的需求可以得到一個滿足"},{"start":18752.042,"end":18767.615,"text":"我想我們初步會請同仁去蒐集這些資料這個部分的話也麻煩委員幫忙那我們蒐集的資料之後我們再來做一些研究因為這個會牽涉到是否他要變成一個專業還是說不是那"},{"start":18768.876,"end":18797.762,"text":"什麼樣的人來做這件事情是最恰當的然後他的教育訓練要怎麼樣去完成然後他未來工作的這個地點是在什麼樣的地方那對於這一些病人或家屬的一個協助的話是從醫院到家庭是一連貫的那要怎麼樣來執行這個可能都我們要進一步去做規劃跟研究"},{"start":18798.522,"end":18819.253,"text":"好,所以這個部分真的很需要請部長持續來努力那我們再往下看其實今天所討論的很多很多的細節真的都需要增加我們的這個醫療的資源所以我們增加醫療資源最重要就是要投資國民的健康那這些真的需要各界共同來支持"},{"start":18819.933,"end":18838.282,"text":"有更好更完整的醫療資源我們才有辦法守護這一代的健康也能夠照顧到下一代那最後一個部分就是今天林啟有提到的就是有家長在陳請這個學校在執行這個健康檢查的時候碰到一些困難"},{"start":18839.082,"end":18867.976,"text":"那這一部分教育部已經有同意要照辦那主要的問題是在於說目前在小朋友尤其是小朋友一年級跟四年級在開學的時候他們就要從學校得到一個健康檢查的整個確認他的健康狀態那在執行的時候有一些是外包那有一些是由學校去聘請從外面的進來的這個醫師來執行那造成處理上的落差"},{"start":18868.456,"end":18869.176,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢"},{"start":18902.935,"end":18929.066,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好 來有請薛部長委員好部長好部長辛苦啦但我還是要講從那個食安一直到食安的問題我都盡量善意提醒展現魄力立即應變錯誤修正然後是全要統一啦"},{"start":18931.175,"end":18946.996,"text":"都島跟執行兩兆的情況之下有時候會因為一個案件之後搞得非常的模糊這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對包含思安"},{"start":18948.254,"end":18948.274,"text":"委員長"},{"start":18968.086,"end":18986.654,"text":"應該都要可以接受到這樣的一個考驗但是顯然這一次好像好像又落洞百出但我是從早上一直到現在還有這幾天看了一些資料我幾天跟部長來做討論也讓部長做參考很多人都說這一次又是深溫泉破洞我個人倒不是這麼認為"},{"start":18989.011,"end":19016.664,"text":"在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個"},{"start":19018.761,"end":19037.857,"text":"這一個我們公部門認定是在一個安全網的範圍裡面反而它是得到這個極盡的虐待我們渾然不知多到事後才知道這樣的情況這顯然是這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以政府存在的目的"},{"start":19038.496,"end":19059.226,"text":"然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了"},{"start":19061.4,"end":19072.893,"text":"有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了?這很奇怪的行為衛福部在109年"},{"start":19079.546,"end":19097.775,"text":"來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府、社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但"},{"start":19100.035,"end":19122.626,"text":"這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動?對不對?完全沒有啟動嗎?這位幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎?也沒有了。也沒有。所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題?部長應該有掌握了吧?"},{"start":19127.648,"end":19148.725,"text":"這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容脆弱家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情"},{"start":19156.072,"end":19158.518,"text":"這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?"},{"start":19165.449,"end":19186.513,"text":"這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置有持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年6月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政"},{"start":19196.189,"end":19199.259,"text":"都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?"},{"start":19202.528,"end":19227.754,"text":"這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個漢市應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友"},{"start":19228.314,"end":19244.412,"text":"我覺得不管從社工、醫師、老師、處理長、社會警政多方來看我覺得這事情就不會去發生嘛所以哪一個環節出問題坦白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我其實好像沒有聽到重點"},{"start":19247.495,"end":19254.303,"text":"請回應哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來"},{"start":19263.032,"end":19287.261,"text":"那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就是新北市社福中心在接受這個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養"},{"start":19288.783,"end":19305.73,"text":"但是後來他生下來之後這媽媽就不見了就不見了所以社福中心的社工的工作人員就把整個的這個經歷放在說怎麼樣完成這個收養"},{"start":19307.219,"end":19324.007,"text":"所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子"},{"start":19324.947,"end":19342.348,"text":"小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟"},{"start":19345.896,"end":19364.485,"text":"然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說"},{"start":19367.466,"end":19390.211,"text":"我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候,沒有把重點放對。重點是要保護小孩子,重點不是說要去取得這個同意,因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧,這個也沒有評估啊。這是第一點。那第二點的話是..."},{"start":19397.934,"end":19414.476,"text":"那第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估,也就是說他有兩度嘛,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽嘛,他要去委託嘛,後來就結案掉。"},{"start":19415.737,"end":19439.784,"text":"後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後她仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中她的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫她照顧了一年"},{"start":19441.136,"end":19457.489,"text":"這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧"},{"start":19458.61,"end":19464.452,"text":"那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼"},{"start":19475.121,"end":19489.293,"text":"本來就是這樣子那這在我的我們的那個那個報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構的來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的"},{"start":19490.074,"end":19491.895,"text":"對於這個保姆去做這個監督管理"},{"start":19514.318,"end":19536.628,"text":"所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉"},{"start":19538.058,"end":19562.408,"text":"所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統"},{"start":19563.228,"end":19586.141,"text":"所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制"},{"start":19587.762,"end":19603.019,"text":"所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、不尊重監護人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?"},{"start":19604.537,"end":19620.338,"text":"這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多了這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異"},{"start":19622.28,"end":19633.854,"text":"然後我們的政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是就是如此就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為"},{"start":19637.658,"end":19656.164,"text":"所以我要把這個線這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷了以後不要再發生事情了對 我知道部長在12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛未來有出養必要不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作全部交給民間團體來執行嘛對不對這是你們的第一點嘛對你覺得這樣夠嗎對前面對啦後面應該不是對吧這至少要做到的啦"},{"start":19664.141,"end":19666.822,"text":"我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?"},{"start":19682.811,"end":19703.788,"text":"跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做"},{"start":19705.458,"end":19728.149,"text":"他還是覺得維持現在的是比較好那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純用民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的"},{"start":19729.409,"end":19754.545,"text":"這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法OK啊,我們也可以請趙委來排這樣的,擴大了全國各縣市的這樣的一個會議嘛對不對,看哪幾個縣市在反對嘛從什麼時候開始反對一直到現在,出了這個事情看他還要不要持續反對嘛跟這個有關的對,沒有錯啊,應該可以吧我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關"},{"start":19755.646,"end":19764.579,"text":"是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就很清楚嘛。另外一件事情啦齁,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不能而已嗎?"},{"start":19766.636,"end":19789.439,"text":"部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養人申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養人收養許可相關的課程內容、資格、審查的標準都一致不會有機構落差然後目前"},{"start":19790.66,"end":19812.376,"text":"台灣目前是由各收養的機構執行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧"},{"start":19813.499,"end":19819.863,"text":"所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...這是有沒有在你這次討論的重點?已經有納進來已經有納進來的?在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法"},{"start":19837.031,"end":19862.497,"text":"在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法原嗎"},{"start":19866.158,"end":19890.671,"text":"就剛剛講說有一些這個評估會不會又22個縣市又不一樣的標準我們當然會建立統一的標準那這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準建立嘛 立主的立嘛"},{"start":19894.059,"end":19899.453,"text":"我剛剛講的這幾點好不好是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁"},{"start":19900.819,"end":19925.626,"text":"我提供的幾個點還是我想希望從部長這邊可以更加重視的是不是也列在你們的檢討報告裡面然後做一個具體的回應啦好不好自己要開那個會我覺得勢在必行嘛越快越好嘛網上有願意排最好對不對如果沒有的話看要再找誰趕快來召開嘛我們也來參與嘛看什麼狀況嘛大家一起來面對共同來討論解決嘛可不可以好謝謝"},{"start":19927.284,"end":19938.554,"text":"好 謝謝劉建國委員的質詢那有關耳哨全法的修法請衛福部加快腳步就是把相關的法案送進衛福部來審議接下來我們請武麗華委員進行質詢謝謝主席 有請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":19956.318,"end":19964.646,"text":"委員好部長好部長您應該聽過原家中心對它的全名是原住民族家庭服務中心是"},{"start":19966.195,"end":19988.986,"text":"這個原家中心它是原民會所設置的已經設置26年而且現在都會加原鄉已經有64處的原家中心那過去還沒有被納入社會安全網的時候其實大家都會說原家中心跟社安網的關係叫做網中網"},{"start":19990.146,"end":20018.003,"text":"因為他設立的一個目標就是要去針對我們部落原住民福利資訊跟資源整合不足所形成的障礙那些被漏接的地方像危險管沒燒的地方他等於是在部落去擔負起這樣的一個責任首先我要特別感謝衛福部因為過去由原民會來設置其實經費很拮据很辛苦"},{"start":20018.703,"end":20041.263,"text":"那謝謝,我們是預定在2025年要納入社安網對不對?應該是明年吧今年會先納入今年是送到行政院了嗎?對那已經合訂了嗎?還沒還沒合訂,那目前在衛福部嗎?送到行政院已經送進行政院了嗎?還沒"},{"start":20044.037,"end":20069.943,"text":"還在修正計畫嗎那今天我來就是要來去做一些提醒為什麼因為我今天我看到我們的專報裡面有社安網第二期計畫112年針對今年度的資源不見情形重要推動成果策進作為我都沒有看見關於原家中心轉型納入社安網的一個說明那我為什麼要這樣講因為"},{"start":20072.717,"end":20088.209,"text":"其實有很多的母機構、很多的原家中心的督導、很多的社工的這些教授專家還有這一些關心的人,他們跟我陳情很久了"},{"start":20089.19,"end":20102.397,"text":"因為他們很高興大家都高興原家中心終於要納入社安網不但經費可以變多人力的配置應該也會變多我們都很高興但是大家憂心的是什麼"},{"start":20103.413,"end":20103.593,"text":"主席"},{"start":20121.934,"end":20149.322,"text":"我們做原建法其實最重要的納入的精神就是文化安全文化敏感度很重要那如果我們納入一般縣市政府的體制下他會變成說他的工作模式像一般在社福中心然後針對那些脆弱家庭然後比較針對個案開案可是呢原家中心這二三十年他在地方你應該很了解他是在部落"},{"start":20150.422,"end":20179.514,"text":"他是整個部落的關係他不會針對個案他會知道個案在部落裡面他跟親友的關係然後他擔負一個很重要的使命對於很多我們的政策福利的政策也好他都可以用在地的語言親近的語言去代表政府來去做這些宣導所以他這樣的一個工作模式我們就是比較要提醒因為目前問原民會也好"},{"start":20180.958,"end":20181.238,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20203.208,"end":20212.867,"text":"可是如果制度國家的制度一進來介入又把他破壞掉這個是大家憂心的還有他的開案指標的訂定"},{"start":20214.295,"end":20239.241,"text":"他到底他的KPI怎麼樣還有他社工人力的配置那轉型的之後他的職能教育訓練怎麼做等等我在這個地方就是想要請衛福部幫忙一下因為很多人關心而且呢看不到看不見也沒有一個具體的說明所以我就代為在這個地方提出這樣的提醒那因為目前是修正嘛"},{"start":20239.981,"end":20267.793,"text":"還沒有送願所以是不是可以針對我以上的這一些代表所提出來的這些憂慮兩週內可以制定一些詳細的回答嗎兩週內去回答當然是可以但是這回答可能不完全為什麼因為現在方向上面就是要把原家中心納入到社安網是這個是決定大家也都樂見其成第二個"},{"start":20268.553,"end":20291.692,"text":"因為這個原家中心納入之後要怎麼樣去做處理的話這一個整個的設計是在園民會是所以我們要看這園民會它的設計是如何因為你們是審查單位啊對我們部會之間我們不會去做那他們提修正計畫是什麼意思就是我們建辦法"},{"start":20293.133,"end":20305.87,"text":"然後交給行政院去做審查所以我們是把各部會的這些意見他想要做的所以你們的意思就是說會完全尊重原民會所提出來的規劃對"},{"start":20308.412,"end":20328.789,"text":"最後是行政院那邊去做決定內容是由行政院來做決定這是第二點那第三點的話那委員提到說這樣會不會干擾到這一個原來的那說這個社安網說交給縣市政府是因為現在這整個的系統如果要納進來的話這裡面"},{"start":20331.511,"end":20349.745,"text":"就變成他是一個社福中心的角色那社福中心他有公權力行使的問題那你如果說現在當然原價中心所以這個就是我們要提醒的地方對啊但是沒有辦法你如果要有公權力行使的話你必須要自具備公權力行使的資格"},{"start":20351.594,"end":20374.375,"text":"這是沒有辦法所以不能說我要希望說能夠有好處那部長這個就是我下一個部分下一個部分要講的問題因為我們就知道會有這樣的原因就是說按照規定按照規定我舉一個例子因為今天是來討論那我就講這個凱凱事件我以原住民來講這是真實的案例"},{"start":20375.756,"end":20386.485,"text":"這個孩子呢109年10月出生那目前是4歲那他的父母因為養不起所以他的孩子就分別交給不同的親戚那這個親戚呢"},{"start":20388.356,"end":20406.364,"text":"他在凱凱出生幾個月的時候他就帶回去照顧一直到今天可是等到這個孩子不是凱凱我口誤但是這個孩子他3歲的時候他就決定要做收養也去跟法院申請要收養"},{"start":20407.344,"end":20424.53,"text":"但是呢地方法院回覆他就是要按照一個收出養的這個辦法所以這個兒少收養認可的調查法是評估報告好結果呢他呢建議他要去做機構的媒合"},{"start":20425.629,"end":20445.283,"text":"可是他說他這個兩次去跟這個媒合中心聯繫他最後他覺得他沒有辦法因為他是六親等以外他是六親等以外所以被駁回那又後來呢媒合中心說要到媒合中心可是他知道媒合中心不會配給他"},{"start":20446.044,"end":20465.731,"text":"所以他又希望地方法院判給他可是目前就是第二次駁回還是一樣法院上面載明寫著還是要依照兒少法的規定就是第16條因為他沒有符合那現在我就是要跟您說這個就是很麻煩的地方因為他是布農族"},{"start":20466.611,"end":20492.694,"text":"這個布農族他們是一個家族、氏族的一個概念我浪費一點點時間跟您說明一下每一個族群他都有不同的照顧模式那這個布農族他們是這樣他們是同一個家族可以分散到臺東、南投、高雄可是部長我跟您說當他們殺豬的時候他們同一個家名叫這個家族他就算殺豬的時候"},{"start":20494.295,"end":20512.857,"text":"他是高雄人他要分到台東的親人分到南投的親人跟他隔壁的鄰居不是同一個家族就算是隔壁鄰居也分不到豬肉他們是這樣子去確保他們的親屬關係那我現在要說的就是這個的確是他的家人"},{"start":20514.636,"end":20530.789,"text":"這個小孩的媽媽跟這個收養人他們的曾祖父曾祖母是親兄妹但是跟這個孩子就七親等就脫離了我們法制規定的六親等那現在偏偏要弄一個收出養的評估報告"},{"start":20531.909,"end":20550.041,"text":"那我就是希望說我們現在原件法都已經納入文化安全的概念是不是我們這個收出養的評估報告也要有文化安全的概念啊要修一下嘛至少要跟那些人講嘛是不是然後另外就是要檢討這個媒合機制為什麼這個家長很生氣"},{"start":20553.283,"end":20567.678,"text":"他說兩次都叫他要去跟媒合中心聯繫他就不要啊那我寧可不要我繼續照顧好了就算這個孩子沒有登記在我名下反正我就照顧到他長大他怎麼會願意孩子去給外面的人帶呢"},{"start":20568.559,"end":20583.782,"text":"可是按照法規就不行而且在部落裡面這些親戚是整個部落一起養這個孩子也不會出現問題所以我在這邊就是希望說這個部分我們原建法已經有納入文化安全所以呢我覺得該修的地方"},{"start":20584.202,"end":20608.164,"text":"就是檢討媒合的機制要有族群的一個概念進來收出養的評估報告也希望去做一個檢討好不好那所以因為時間到我是希望說第一個我希望衛福部就會同原民會啦兩週內就是將原家中心納入社安網提出一個衝擊影響評估報告過去的母機構陪伴二三十年怎麼辦"},{"start":20609.825,"end":20634.299,"text":"為了一個公權力這個是國家的制度我要講的就是這個其實每一個族群都有他不同的一個照顧模式我覺得我們要尊重如果我們一直在硬梆梆的法制底下去思考問題我們會把好不容易建立起來的東西又破壞掉那也希望這個報告裡面針對人力配置經費編制工作模式我希望兩週內就一起提出報告好不好"},{"start":20635.459,"end":20635.839,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":20665.896,"end":20667.117,"text":"好 有請部長委員好部長好部長在這個檢討這個政府的責任之前因為我有看到一個更大的危機因為我覺得就是社安網正在瓦解中所以想要請教部長您認同嗎不太認同"},{"start":20686.485,"end":20715.244,"text":"不太認同,好,為什麼我要這樣講,我想要跟您說的就是部長,社安網不只是政府、社福單位或是案家,更重要的還有我們全國18600多名,這是111年的資料啦18600多名的社工的專業跟熱忱,讓我們全國的社安網撐起來但這次的事件也有可能讓好不容易打造的社安網一夕間崩潰,這是我的憂慮"},{"start":20716.605,"end":20728.878,"text":"也是為什麼我剛剛提到我覺得社安網正在瓦解的原因因為這次的事件也造成社工界的集體心理創傷請教部長這個部分您覺得要怎麼處理"},{"start":20730.832,"end":20751.071,"text":"兩個部分,第一個部分對於這個涉案的這個社工本身來講因為他到底是否是有刑事責任這個是一件事,但是在處理的過程當中給他參考,這的確是非常的不妥第二個,其他的社工人員,我們是非常支持的"},{"start":20752.733,"end":20779.99,"text":"我們不方便評論好 謝謝部長我要講的事情是針對這個結構性的問題社工界長期以來就是有這個三高、三缺以及一低的問題也就是我們的高風險、我們的高案量、高壓力然後缺督導、缺合作、缺資源以及偏低的薪資條件更別提之前常常有新聞媒體報導也有這種薪資回捐的漏息"},{"start":20781.071,"end":20803.914,"text":"並且也有研究指出社工系畢業生投入社工者大概是只有五成就業三年後近三成離開我們的社工圈留任者又有三成可能要離開這個社工專業所以我剛剛講的事情也不是針對這個個案因為畢竟這是一個社會事件那我們只是透過這個個案來看我們社會上這個系統上有沒有問題"},{"start":20805.015,"end":20833.198,"text":"所以看起來這個社工的留任困難已經是一個結構性的問題是不是可以這麼說啦可以這麼說齁所以部長我認為我們應該要想辦法來重振我們的社工的這個士氣因為這一環是我們社安網裡面非常重要的一環對那我想這有兩點可以努力的方向跟部長分享也請教部長有沒有其他的想法喔我想有兩點努力的方向分別是當然就是提高我們的薪資喔"},{"start":20834.119,"end":20859.938,"text":"以及提升專業的認同所以我想當然一個求財管道這種多元求財這個當然是不在話下但我覺得主要是這兩點所以想要請教部長這個所謂社工新店的折合率有沒有機會再往上調高一些我知道去年大概9月的時候有調高過一次剛剛委員提到兩點其實都非常正確"},{"start":20861.004,"end":20880.503,"text":"那第一個是這一個薪資能不能再繼續往上調這也是我們努力的方向不過這還是要看這整體國家財政的狀況如何好那請謝謝那就請部長在這部分也多多的琢磨當然那另外一點就是說提到他的形象的這部分的話"},{"start":20881.204,"end":20895.122,"text":"我覺得這幾年來對於社工的形象的提升應該是已經有一個程度了因為在稍早幾年大家連志工跟社工都分不清楚了"},{"start":20896.639,"end":20918.468,"text":"現在的話大概大家都了解社工就是社工而且社工他真的是肩負著非常重大部長謝謝喔拍著我懂你的意思但是我只是想說再加強這塊你們檢討完有沒有可以做更多的地方因為我們知道這個如果社工人員認同他社工專業生涯後他投入工作可以獲得成就感就比較不會產生職業的怠惰嘛"},{"start":20918.988,"end":20940.203,"text":"所以我其實這個問題我不是要您解釋過去有怎麼樣進展我是想說發生這個事件之後還有沒有你們覺得可以做得更好的地方更多的地方呢當然這永遠都有這個努力的空間啦比方說剛剛提到薪資的這個部分那這個就逐步要去依照我們能夠負擔的這個財政狀況去做這個提升啦"},{"start":20945.086,"end":20966.494,"text":"好 謝謝部長我聽起來是沒有對於這一件這個專業認同可能要回去再思考在下一次開會或檢討會議有沒有比較具體可行的執行的行動方案要不然現在聽起來是比較模糊我們都知道往這一去可是可能要透過你們的專業還有你們跨部會的整合找出真正可以動作的這個執行方案那我也有去了解一下"},{"start":20968.615,"end":20988.327,"text":"這幾年都會有去了解一下這幾年有一些社工比如說私的社工他不太願意加入社安網他們有說為什麼因為他們說社安網的年資無法採認所以導致可能在這個經驗傳承上他過去的累積的經驗他現在轉到社安網裡好像不會被採認請問想要請教部長有這個事情嗎"},{"start":20992.716,"end":21017.944,"text":"應該不會有這個事情不過如果有這方面的一個問題的話我是希望就是說能夠直接跟衛福部這邊來對接我們瞭解真正問題是是好沒有問題那也請衛福部稍微再去了解一下有沒有這樣的狀況不然這個有經驗的社工如果沒有辦法傳承的話的確會讓這個新的社工走損率也很高也不利於我們社會安全網的部件那再來"},{"start":21019.987,"end":21039.975,"text":"部長你們昨天才提供這個虐童案的時序表雖然晚到但是總比不到來的好所以本席想要請教這個首次兒童權利國家公約報告的時候許多學者專家提到家外安置的狀況所以在會議上有總結提出這個機制是要以家庭為單位做進行"},{"start":21041.596,"end":21065.683,"text":"那這個2019年的社家署也針對這個評估的內容開啟了家外安置兒少替代性照顧資源強化計畫的推動與執行希望能夠協助各個縣市在地評估小組是安置兒少的不同需求協助安置單位所需的資源也就是由縣市政府為首的在地評估小組在各地的"},{"start":21066.323,"end":21089.27,"text":"而邵安智忠．扮演一個中介的角色．然後再邀請不同的專家．例如藻寮、心理諮商．法務等等擔任委員．讓這個而邵的評估．可以更全面的關照那部長過去出養是由這個衛福部委託的社福機構執行評估．但這一次的專家會議決定未來出養由地方政府評估嘛那"},{"start":21090.406,"end":21117.265,"text":"也想要問請問部長是否過去有發生過機構和寄養家庭間為了利益問題而糾纏不清所以才要這樣修改沒有這是這一次我們發現的這個問題我們決定就一定要做這方面的修改因為每一個機構去統包一條龍的話的確容易發生問題是那部長未來出養決定是否也應該納入在地評估小組以及這個TBM也就是團體決策會議"},{"start":21122.038,"end":21136.268,"text":"這涉及兒消法的修法請問這個何時能夠提出修法的版本目前其實剛剛提到的委員提到這一點的話是不必等到那個兒權法的修正"},{"start":21137.833,"end":21156.028,"text":"至於委員問他說額群法的立法的一個進度的話那現在大概還在衛福部裡面因為我們這一次會有兩個法同時來進行一個是額群法一個是托育服務法、托育的專法那這兩個會同時進行"},{"start":21158.01,"end":21171.158,"text":"好 沒問題 請部長再繼續一點努力部長 針對這個虐童案件的致死案件上週三也有很多的縣市各個的社工團體發出聲明就是強烈譴責我們的主管機關也就是衛福部"},{"start":21175.02,"end":21192.519,"text":"沒有依照社政單位而效保護案件通報處理調查及處遇服務作業程序的規定在重大額內案件發生的30天內要完成這個調查報告請教部長是什麼原因讓您覺得可以不開會言商不做檢討報告"},{"start":21193.94,"end":21213.425,"text":"是因為當初我有看到新聞您說是因為小孩已經死了就可以不用開報告不用開嗎我沒有這樣講根本報告齁其實從那個處理事件的流程是第一方要做通報這是第一點第二個地方就要去做檢討的會議開這個檢討會議在10天之內檢討會議之後兩週之內要把檢討報告給衛福部"},{"start":21222.423,"end":21249.008,"text":"所以您的意思是說30天沒有完成報告是因為地方政府沒有開嗎?中央是沒有說一定要去開這個檢討會議的是地方一定要開地方把這個檢討報告送過來之後的話我們如果發現說這中間是可能有問題我們才去開然後請地方來說明所以這個程序的規定不包含衛福部需要在30天內就是完成這個調查報告應該沒有這個"},{"start":21251.277,"end":21263.75,"text":"因為您這樣的說法很像是司法調查沒有問題但是我們的主責單位沒有職責去了解整個流程過程當中有沒有一些行政上面的需要改進的地方"},{"start":21264.775,"end":21288.045,"text":"因為這才是重點因為依規定我是覺得該檢討就要檢討但是沒有檢討現在亡羊補牢後面開了這個專家會議那當然其中還有一項你們提到說要求增加這個訪視率問題是現在各個縣市政府也都是有缺社工的情況請問衛福部要怎麼達成這個目標有沒有任何的配套措施"},{"start":21288.785,"end":21308.352,"text":"這當然會跟地方去做討論不過跟委員報告我們今天所提的這個增加紡釋率是有對象的就是哪一類的個案就必須要增加紡釋率它的原因是這樣子像這種惡意的保母做出這種令人髮指的這種行為"},{"start":21310.314,"end":21323.853,"text":"這種惡意他要掩飾的話是相對是容易的因為我們的社工可能都相信說人是善良的但是如果有多重的反噬的話那可能他就跑不掉"},{"start":21325.191,"end":21341.386,"text":"社會福利部長因為你們的這個檢討報告裡面也是簡短的只提到這句話所以我想要表達事情是你們要再更細的去去針對去把定出這個作業準則不然你也會累死地方也根本不夠的人力甚至是你可能要考量要怎麼樣給地方資源"},{"start":21342.607,"end":21358.721,"text":"對 當然就是要配套對 甚至就是所謂的所以我才問這個問題是說你們有沒有泥鞋配套這也是為什麼我們覺得這個今天的檢討報告不夠完善我們要退回的原因因為這個東西就是太太模糊了所以我只是想要提醒部長是說這個部分的確"},{"start":21359.682,"end":21380.883,"text":"我們要想辦法增加這個社工的量能或是他的待遇當然也需要增加他的這個仿式也應該要更重質而不完全是重量啦因為你完全是重量的話完全的人力也不足你量能也不足喔所以希望我們衛福部也可以針對這個部分好好的把配套措施都準備好下次再提交報告給大家"},{"start":21382.352,"end":21402.149,"text":"那再來最後就是在後面還有我想要說部長我們最近整理了三年社家屬的公務預算在這個111年到113年的社會福利基金的預算發現看似兒少相關的預算也不少但是針對這種有狀況受虐或是需要出養的兒童這個經費好像不太夠也並不多"},{"start":21404.631,"end":21424.989,"text":"例如你們委辦計畫中的這個兒童及少年收養中心資訊業務計畫每年大概是127萬左右委辦內容當然大部分是社福機構團體保存及建立這個資訊提供尋親、心理、醫療、法律等資訊的轉介業務當然還有其他的包含家外安置、短期治療等等"},{"start":21426.35,"end":21451.713,"text":"這個我是覺得這個經費是不是不太充裕那陳建仁院長也有在3月14號的時候說要成立這個食安檢查的負責的這個基金預算專款專用那我想一樣的我在思考事情是不是我今天想要要求衛福部是不是儘速也啟動研議把兒少保護業務的基金業務獨立出來這個也要成立一個獨立的中央兒少保護基金你覺得能否做到"},{"start":21453.254,"end":21477.213,"text":"這個我們會跟行政那邊來做請示因為依照財政紀律法的話如果要成立基金的話就有一定的要求是沒關係部長這部分我會提案今天也已經提案了希望說你們可以好好的跨黨派研議這樣子的案件是不是可以用這樣處理因為我覺得第一個預算足夠之外這樣子也可以更加透明更加讓大家知道說把這個費用用在哪裡"},{"start":21478.496,"end":21487.411,"text":"那最後再來就是有反映這個跟部長也討論有關社會安全網中去年底這個發生國中割井案的事情"},{"start":21488.188,"end":21509.165,"text":"那後來你們當然有一個結論我們看到一開始也覺得有一個結論就是推動成立北部的少家法院這個消息對沒錯這個我知道這個跟司法院是有關但是我們本來是覺得是一個好消息但是最終我們認為說他說真樸少年調查保護人力不足所以"},{"start":21509.886,"end":21523.424,"text":"成立北部的少家專業法院這是刻不容緩可是我這裡覺得很奇怪為什麼他只重視北部難道沒有中部、南部嗎那這樣的建議我知道你們是有共同開會的喔那這樣是有透過你們的建議是有經過衛福部的建議嗎"},{"start":21525.178,"end":21539.549,"text":"我想這個是屬於司法院的業務我不知道他當時的一個決定為什麼是北部所以你們沒有提供這方面的建議這個會議行政院跟司法院有一起開會"},{"start":21540.51,"end":21561.596,"text":"那現在是司法院先提出先做北部的兒少家庭加司法院那接下來會再看說是否要往中部或是南部設立是那這個部分我特別提出來是希望你們也關注我們中部和南部的需求因為這個事情不會只有發生在北部好不好那也請你們回去把這個建議帶回行政院跟司法院"},{"start":21562.486,"end":21581.575,"text":"那再來我也想要今天是問好問滿嘛對不對我迅速最後最後好不好這個社安網的部分最近我也想要另外跳脫剛剛原本大家都在討論這個相關的案件其實我想要補充的事情就是最近有關我們青少年心理困擾這幾年也是越來越嚴重"},{"start":21582.515,"end":21587.417,"text":"所以在2016到2021的這個資料裡面就顯示15歲到30歲的這個心神科相關的診斷者從22萬人成長到29萬人而且這個成長率整體也是4.8成長到7%所以整體成長率有到47%WHO也把憂鬱症列為21世紀人類健康的頭號殺手"},{"start":21605.003,"end":21632.069,"text":"所以我想要講的事情是我想要請衛福部喔你們去年有提出這個年輕族群心理健康支持方案我覺得很棒那我也支持可是每人有三次的這個免費心理諮商可是我們知道他很快就沒了而且量能不足喔所以想要請問因為現在也正在編列這個114年的預算想要請問這個部分有沒有可能把明年的這個次數量能增加到從三次增加到至少六次呢"},{"start":21633.475,"end":21656.856,"text":"這我們還需要再進一步評估因為總是預算還是有限的是但是希望部長可以好好評估因為這個東西已經是社會大家的很重要也是社會安全網很重要的一塊那再來社會安全網很重要的一塊就是這個社區心理衛生中心目前是有48處到明年預計要71處請問明年是否會可以如值完成"},{"start":21657.416,"end":21684.848,"text":"我們會盡力啦這是一個很明確的一個方向我們大概有信心可以來達成好那最後一個就是學校裡面現在以大專院校來講每1200名的學生僅配一名的這個專業輔導人員而且所以平均每個學生可能都要一個月才有可能諮商的到排隊才有諮商的到所以我想要請問你們是否可以贊成下修把這個比例下修"},{"start":21685.39,"end":21690.572,"text":"教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育"},{"start":21706.88,"end":21725.738,"text":"OK好那我以上質詢完畢那希望喔今天質詢是希望說我們透過一個個案雖然大家說他覺得是個案可是他也可能存在的系統裡面的問題所以希望不要從個案然後到處推尾謝責我們好好檢討解決問題不要讓個案變通案通案變系統性的危機好謝謝大家好我們謝謝廖偉祥委員的質詢"},{"start":21734.491,"end":21737.392,"text":"好 那接下來我們請楊耀元進行質詢謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長"},{"start":21751.601,"end":21769.566,"text":"委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個"},{"start":21771.141,"end":21796.793,"text":"用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的"},{"start":21798.214,"end":21819.12,"text":"那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了"},{"start":21826.4,"end":21850.538,"text":"這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告"},{"start":21852.867,"end":21868.456,"text":"就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診"},{"start":21878.382,"end":21901.5,"text":"事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實"},{"start":21905.936,"end":21920.404,"text":"沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代"},{"start":21925.063,"end":21946.997,"text":"部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況"},{"start":21953.889,"end":21967.779,"text":"為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的"},{"start":21972.603,"end":21993.908,"text":"對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是"},{"start":21995.57,"end":22014.571,"text":"偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案"},{"start":22015.939,"end":22037.29,"text":"然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的"},{"start":22040.161,"end":22065.369,"text":"該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是"},{"start":22068.03,"end":22087.64,"text":"我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解"},{"start":22089.836,"end":22113.763,"text":"以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下"},{"start":22115.052,"end":22139.789,"text":"昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息"},{"start":22141.144,"end":22146.828,"text":"對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理,不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。"},{"start":22168.984,"end":22195.829,"text":"但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇"},{"start":22197.168,"end":22208.748,"text":"假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間"},{"start":22210.978,"end":22231.929,"text":"所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢"},{"start":22233.837,"end":22259.172,"text":"我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就說失聯了"},{"start":22261.988,"end":22264.832,"text":"家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。"},{"start":22276.465,"end":22301.745,"text":"那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說得很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這就算了就算了"},{"start":22305.067,"end":22317.926,"text":"但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖．法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚"},{"start":22323.379,"end":22347.208,"text":"部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆"},{"start":22348.632,"end":22370.775,"text":"那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須"},{"start":22373.093,"end":22394.377,"text":"對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個老母那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":22398.898,"end":22421.229,"text":"因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私利的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是"},{"start":22422.594,"end":22444.685,"text":"保姆沒有換?保姆不換,事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員,我們這個案子其實還沒有結案"},{"start":22446.026,"end":22468.341,"text":"我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規司法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?"},{"start":22470.723,"end":22490.738,"text":"全面性的往往所有的所有的措施都站在兒童利益來做出發點我覺得這個才是最重要的好謝謝部長謝謝主席好我們謝謝呃楊耀委員的質詢好接下來我們請陳英委員進行質詢好謝謝主席呃麻煩請請部長"},{"start":22502.256,"end":22502.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22523.501,"end":22539.941,"text":"即將要研議健保第6類國人若是經濟弱勢者將全額補助健保費原住民年齡的部分本系有要求降到55歲當時我在質詢之後部長有特別指示相關單位來跟我說明不過"},{"start":22541.402,"end":22562.994,"text":"我一直哭哭等候到現在沒有任何一個人有來過我的辦公室找我那今天社家署有來我想了解一下就是這個中間到底是你們發生了什麼事情還是部長要幫他解釋嗎"},{"start":22565.185,"end":22570.388,"text":"因為我們內部還在收集一些資料跟跑一些資料因為這個要跟健保署那邊去做一些資料的勾結"},{"start":22594.224,"end":22597.346,"text":"那我想如果你有這樣子的問題那撥一通電話稍微先說明一下很困難嗎?"},{"start":22615.781,"end":22616.681,"text":"長者的助聽器"},{"start":22643.089,"end":22643.629,"text":"聽力退化長者"},{"start":22662.438,"end":22679.165,"text":"提供購置注定器的補助那當時部長也是很清楚的我們有講好3個月研議的時間那現在算一算快半年了那研議那麼久也一樣都沒有跟我說明進度那我也不知道中間又發生什麼事了"},{"start":22680.705,"end":22702.881,"text":"這個部分的話應該是主要負責的單位應該是長照師當然有一部分的話是社交署這邊要去處理的這個部分的話我想我會回去再責成他們就是說今天是禮拜一這個禮拜我請他們去跟委員做報告"},{"start":22707.578,"end":22730.275,"text":"部長是這樣的因為選舉前我有要求的事項當然也請各個單位可以自己整理一下雖然是新的任期但是在這邊所有要求的事項並沒有借其不敘省的問題欠債要還錢所以請大家要主動特別部長都有交代了你們要把部長放在眼裡"},{"start":22731.516,"end":22746.805,"text":"好那再來一樣就是說在去年5月我主持了這個援助民族健康法的審查那在許多的委員、機關及民間團體共同的努力之下好不容易終於三讀通過了"},{"start":22747.745,"end":22763.543,"text":"那我想部長是說跟部長講的是說原件法通過之後呢該做的事我們要趕快趕上進度因為在這一次選舉當中我們很多的候選人有那個很瞭解立法院的候選人"},{"start":22765.265,"end":22780.741,"text":"也有就完全不懂立法院的候選人都在大肆的唱衰這個原件法所以原件法的這個條文內應該做的事情我希望能夠趕快完成這個部分是請部長"},{"start":22781.662,"end":22805.554,"text":"跟我們報告,第一個就是說要設專責的單位,我們規劃是在查護室底下那目前這個案子正在跟人事總署這邊好,因為講到這個就是說因為當然依照這個原件法的第二條的第二項規定中央主管機關應指定專責單位來辦理原住民的健康事務那過去我也希望說"},{"start":22806.754,"end":22830.44,"text":"希望它是三級機關那至少說這個單位是屬或是私但是因為討論的結果最後是以科來收藏那雖然我不滿意這樣的結果但是我們為了不要再耽誤原建法通過的時程所以也就勉強接受先讓它上路未來再找適當時機我們再讓它繼續升級那我想請問就是說好部長你說這個科的籌備狀況"},{"start":22836.161,"end":22852.053,"text":"因為去年我在質詢的時候部長有表示說年底嘛年底的時候年底前會成立目前正在跟行政院爭取這個預算的緣額要成立一個科但是他"},{"start":22853.414,"end":22853.995,"text":"請問您有親自跟人事總署的那個"},{"start":22881.198,"end":22881.518,"text":"我們會考慮這一點"},{"start":22902.904,"end":22924.937,"text":"那再來就是去年10月的時候我同時也問了這個原住民族健康研究中心的籌備狀況因為當時今年年度的預算已經送交立法院了我非常擔心說他沒有經費那但是就是說沒經費就沒有辦法如期在國衛院下成立這個研究中心"},{"start":22926.098,"end":22948.933,"text":"後來部長也有答應然後想辦法籌措經費來處理也非常謝謝部長那我們在去年底有一起去參加那個揭牌然後就是大家其實都很關心原住民族健康研究中心現在運作情形跟未來的運作模式那部長是不是可以跟大家說明一下"},{"start":22949.673,"end":22954.076,"text":"這個硬體的部分是已經成立了我們從科發基金那邊撥了一千萬給國務院來執行所以預算暫時也是有來源的"},{"start":22969.364,"end":22983.497,"text":"那至於說這個組織的部分的話我想是他們的副院長去擔任這個主任那也有一位執行秘書來幫忙那這個工作小組的這一個運作的話"},{"start":22985.459,"end":22999.395,"text":"我們會成立這個工作小組而且會定期來討論有關於這個中心的如何來運作這一個部分的話大概都已經在進行當中了"},{"start":23002.149,"end":23017.182,"text":"首要之急有關於類似的資料庫的建置我們整個原住民族健康研究的方向再請你們多加油在未來這個"},{"start":23019.043,"end":23040.916,"text":"原住民族健康研究中心的這些研究項目還有民間團體的建議我希望在這個整個中間的這個溝通管道他是可以很暢通的因為畢竟他們都是在第一線的工作者所以他們很清楚知道這個原住民族在地方的這些健康照顧的情形存在哪些問題需要去解決的"},{"start":23041.516,"end":23065.305,"text":"所以我希望大家可以廣納意見他們的意見跟想法包含4月份的時候我們就會召開這個中心的一個政策會報對於剛剛委員所提到的這些未來要研究的方向等等這些的話會在那裡去討論"},{"start":23066.906,"end":23095.259,"text":"好那最後本席有一個建議就是在我之前上一屆主持這個原建法審查的過程當中我有請你們盤點就是所有有關這個原住民族健康照護政策的經費那未來呢每年就是請你們可以把這個前一年的這個支出的經費做一個統計避免那些這個唱衰這個原建法的人們"},{"start":23096.34,"end":23100.045,"text":"我希望部長可以就是說來大力我們用行動來證明他絕對不是一個空殼他對我們原住民的健康是相當有幫助的一個法案"},{"start":23115.307,"end":23119.631,"text":"我相信這個年報以後未來是即時的年報就不會像以前還隔個三四年那麼久"},{"start":23140.829,"end":23156.064,"text":"第三個就是研究計畫如果說在這個研究中心所提出來或是審核通過的研究計畫那我們也會把它公開所以大概就三個我們會把這個資訊把它透明化好 謝謝部長"},{"start":23160.516,"end":23164.198,"text":"主席 各位大家好 是不是還是先就教育我們這個薛部長薛部長請"},{"start":23189.082,"end":23208.378,"text":"委員好部長今天大家討論了很多其實這個裡面你們的報告裡面也承認這個不是社會安全網漏接沒有漏接的問題是社會安全網本身破動不安全這個是社會安全網不安全的問題"},{"start":23210.319,"end":23230.464,"text":"他也是相當嚴重的問題我們都以為只要安全網進入這個安全體系我們接起來就好了沒想到接起來那個網破洞讓他摔死了所以在這裡我們覺得在這個部分非要一條人命才讓我們看見這個安全網是有破洞的這個代價太慘痛那所以今天在這裡呢我們也發現說大家在檢討這個說出養媒合機構的社工的問題"},{"start":23238.166,"end":23260.508,"text":"那收出養媒和機構大家對於社工的檢討大概比如說在這個機制方面大家都會強調說這個要增加這個訪視的頻率啦還有這個提高訪視頻率以外提升對訪視案件的敏感度大家都有提到敏感度可是大家也都知道說什麼是敏感度敏感度要怎麼提升"},{"start":23261.923,"end":23287.542,"text":"對不對對那這一個部分的話其實有兩個重點第一個重點就是要多重的去做這個訪視所謂的訪視頻率並不是單一的社工要本來一個月去一次變成一個月去兩次這不是主要重點重點是說那你負責的這些單位的話要怎麼樣去double check"},{"start":23288.391,"end":23308.083,"text":"對於這種有惡意的你沒有靠這樣子的社工的總量是固定的那你多做一個double check那就是排擠了另外一個房市的時間他的社工的時間也是固定的所以這一個所謂的增加房市的這一個部分的話要去做double check的對象的話必須要明確"},{"start":23311.504,"end":23328.628,"text":"總量人數是固定的公時也是固定的那他的案件數其實是很多的你這樣是有排擠那我跟你講因為我們找過專業的像是彭婉如文教基金會他們負責保姆和這個社區托育的主管人員請示"},{"start":23329.648,"end":23347.924,"text":"他們其實一直也反映了幾件事情第一個 訪視的次數固然是可以增加好了你要double check也沒有關係但是如果訪視的品質沒有提升只是讓訪視人員這樣子大家疲於奔命增加工作時間增加次數double再check觀察的時間"},{"start":23349.225,"end":23378.488,"text":"會不會相對減少那重點也不是你去幾次有沒有double check時間以外品質大家都知道品質而訪視的品質高低在於如何察覺風險遇見風險所以我們講其實我問你這個問題就是第二個如何增加訪視員的敏感度啊對啊這個部分的話當然第一個要透過教育新人第二個的話我們必須用一個比較系統化的一個做法"},{"start":23380.36,"end":23397.477,"text":"這個我們的社工的教育訓練這本來都是專業的這大家都理論上都有專業啊但是呢理論上是這樣沒有不對但是你看你們社家屬提供的這個居家特育服務中心訪視輔導工作指引你去看你的指引的內容"},{"start":23398.478,"end":23424.004,"text":"訪視前、訪視中、訪視後訪視中你叫人家到現場說你告訴人家表明身份表明這次訪視的目的要熱誠、要積極、要真誠訪視的時候口齒要清晰、不疾不徐訪視的時候要跟保姆、居家服務員要信任關係稱呼要適當不能叫他阿姨要叫大姊這叫適當嗎有一般性的社會會談進入主題性的會談"},{"start":23425.505,"end":23450.106,"text":"然後要跟受訪者推對象為中心然後要尊重、接納、同理受訪者這個保姆要同理他透過生活化的舉例提出專業的知識的建議我的意思是說看你們的指引這樣就可以增加敏感度嗎沒有這個部分的話只是一部分因為你這邊所寫的是對於這個接受訪視的這些成人也就是保姆但是"},{"start":23451.192,"end":23454.993,"text":"沒有提到小孩子,你要去看小孩子這才是重點對啦,這本來就應該要看,但是保姆也很重要我現在再回饋你這個是我剛剛講的第一線的主管人員他們反映的,訪視的品質高低,要察覺風險"},{"start":23473.76,"end":23492.404,"text":"那他的敏感度其實要擴大訪視面向的廣度,還有透過提問探詢日常托育細節,流程確認,還有保姆的說辭是否為真,如果組織或訪員敷衍了事,只能看到表面和客觀事實。你說小孩第一次去看,你把他放在床上看,我跟你講這一個凱凱的個案,他有沒有去看醫生,沒有規定要健康檢查,但他有去啊!"},{"start":23499.446,"end":23518.513,"text":"他看了牙醫欸!他不是沒有看欸!難道牙醫就沒有敏感度嗎?牙醫去看他檢查牙齒然後還可以說他這個四顆牙齒的脫落可能是因為磨牙牙醫師回報提供的意見可能是磨牙嚴重可能受過刺激不平等待遇或癲癇他也有回應這個也有醫生看過並不是沒有所以我的意思是說其實"},{"start":23529.707,"end":23532.768,"text":"社家屬要創造定期的、跨單位的、不同的居家托育服務中心承辦單位、跨縣市的經驗交流機會,要擴大分享的風險資料庫"},{"start":23551.192,"end":23567.223,"text":"因為一個社工員幾個個案尤其是他看了這個個案他加上自身經驗加上這個學習的這個呃這個呃呈時間的長短不一那你提升所有第一線的從業人員的風險辨識的敏感度那風險分這些個案大家部團的來共同分享建立一個風險資料庫結果他們檢討的是說可是每次社家屬去舉辦的會議都流於形式"},{"start":23581.152,"end":23596.711,"text":"都不是第一線工作的社工委員發言回饋都交給不是第一線的專家學者發言所以你們製作出來的手冊沒有跟上實務需求"},{"start":23597.552,"end":23621.377,"text":"如果個別的居托中心承辦的單位組織內如果你們社交組織這樣子讓學者專家發言沒有第一線的共享風險資料庫但是這個承辦單位的內部比如說兒福聯盟他內部他們有沒有督導會議他們有沒有定期的社工檢討會議如果沒有不常讓訪員間交流分享"},{"start":23622.637,"end":23627.783,"text":"沒有發揮監督職責,機構內也沒有共同分享的這個風險資料庫的教育等等,房市的品質一定很差所以我們在講說社交屬一定要擴大各居托中心經驗交流"},{"start":23642.199,"end":23653.47,"text":"不要讓各居家托育中心的工作經驗停留在個人、個別中心或單一縣市我覺得這個回饋的意見非常好我們可以這樣來進行"},{"start":23660.405,"end":23688.382,"text":"對,因為第一線去訪視,它就是收集資料作為風險辨識的依據,但敏感度是關鍵啊你如果沒敏感度,你要收集很多資料,你如果不用忙,你也沒辦法收集很多資料所以這個敏感度是相當要緊的但是呢,我也要跟這個部長你分享,某個居家托育服務中心其他督導的心得"},{"start":23689.541,"end":23707.554,"text":"這個在社家屬社區發展記刊的文章有一篇叫建構安全居家托育服務安全居家托育服務的建構你如何做到風險辨識文中有提到幾個點第一確保足夠的資訊量要以公精準判斷"},{"start":23708.835,"end":23736.375,"text":"然後第二個他們有發現提問的資料的豐厚度提高這個訊息來源和察覺風險電房也要這兩者這個對新收拖案例行性的電房他們也要但是他們發現有一點什麼你知道嗎這個中興督導他都透過多年運作的經驗發現有時候真相啊要收拖結束才會發現為什麼"},{"start":23738.615,"end":23746.101,"text":"因為家長跟保姆之間要維持合作關係所以要有求於保姆有時候不敢講真話"},{"start":23747.312,"end":23775.539,"text":"他不一定會馬上全盤拖出跟中心說這個保姆有什麼問題馬上就反應但是等到收拖結束合作關係結束他可能會講喔所以托育的過程這個小孩子結束了可是保姆繼續在帶小孩啊他存在的具有風險的照顧行為不會因為這個個案結束而消失還會延續到下一個收拖的兒童"},{"start":23776.579,"end":23787.726,"text":"但是呢可是這個風險沒有被真相沒有被揭露所以他就說有時候呢在收拖更新結束的時候受理保姆的拘托通報以外他們也要求你們要中拖電訪這個家那個家長"},{"start":23795.56,"end":23823.169,"text":"透過和對家長跟保姆回報的結束托育的日期是否一致更重要是要藉此了解家長對於整體送托經驗的感受若查到風險的訊息中心便可以處理托育人員不適當有風險的照顧行為所以中托電訪很重要那這個督導他怎麼分享這個中托電訪的內容"},{"start":23824.571,"end":23848.488,"text":"他說我們剛開始打家長停拖電話家長就想說既然中心來問了而且已經終止收拖了我就講吧他講了兩點第一保母會大聲罵小孩第二寶爸會拿膠帶貼小孩的嘴巴還跟我們家長炫耀這個是媽媽在收拖結束以後才告訴他們的"},{"start":23849.901,"end":23865.805,"text":"所以說你說定期的有意義有目的的這個電訪很重要但是從收託結束中拖的這個電訪也很重要所以這些都是一種機制啊但是必須要有敏感性而且你們有規定要中拖電訪嗎目前是沒有沒有對所以人家做的好的還有中拖電訪"},{"start":23873.919,"end":23878.36,"text":"這個關係結束以後,我孩子在你手上拜託你給我,我不跟你說終止這個托育以後,結束才會發現真相這個就是我們在這裡告訴你的但我今天還有一點要請教這個部長啦講這麼久我還是有點不了解這個凱凱的付費給保姆的是誰?誰付費的?"},{"start":23899.229,"end":23919.812,"text":"就是他的保母費是誰付的?阿俄府聯盟沒有拿到補助他為什麼會願意幫這個小孩付錢?會不會有道德風險?要幫那個小孩付錢,如果他沒有被人家收養時間越拖越長,要幫他付的錢越多,所以他就越找那個品質越差越便宜的?"},{"start":23920.433,"end":23924.975,"text":"這個機制運作了這麼多年,怎麼會這個樣子呢?他有沒有政府的補助進去?完全都沒有嗎?這麼多年都沒有嗎?我以為百思不得其解,因為兒盟將這個凱凱交付給這個保姆的時候,為什麼是由他的外婆跟這個保姆簽約的?"},{"start":23948.183,"end":23971.933,"text":"可是目前的是兒婦聯盟這個關係對價關係不太對啊對所以這一個部分就是我們在檢討報告裡面提到的然後我們未來要去改的這個機制我們就希望他走的是委託安置的一個流程然後就不是我說媒合機構怎麼會有這麼多錢可以去幫你安置這麼多小孩你不會覺得疑問嗎"},{"start":23973.917,"end":24002.205,"text":"當然因為他後面最後如果沒有成功的話是有收費啦對於收養者去做收費好當然收費標準是怎麼樣?以兒福聯盟為例現在收費標準是怎麼樣?大概是10萬嘛第一個階段只要去申請就要繳費2萬所以要收養也要花很多錢的不是免費的喔第二階段進行收養評估審查要2萬5第三段第四階段要收多少?"},{"start":24003.533,"end":24028.689,"text":"下一張有沒有第三階段收養五萬五但我知道那個外國人收養要繳兩次繳兩次的那個美金四千元所以給外國人收養可以收到美金八千元台灣人收養可以收養成功他要繳十萬元外國人要收養台灣小孩繳八千塊美金所以靠這個收入來cover那個支出"},{"start":24029.95,"end":24050.162,"text":"那所以顯然支柱的時間要越短越好,所以他難以做到最好的評估,所以你們才說這個有道德風險,因為大家都覺得出洋是一個評估,要經過專業的評估才能出洋,如果照這種道理,我愛互出是這孩子,我愛保證他出洋,如果沒保證他出洋,"},{"start":24053.024,"end":24071.015,"text":"我看這孩子的錢都要倒掉,怎麼會有這種事情,怎麼會沒有機構要做這種事情,所以就要保證每個孩子都要給他出洋,不管他是不是需要出洋,不管專業評估到底是不是出洋對這個小孩是最好的,他都勢必要讓他出洋"},{"start":24073.484,"end":24090.017,"text":"是這樣子?對,所以我們這一次要改的就是要改這個部份可是運作了這麼多年這麼荒謬的事情我們現在才知道付出了人命以後這個已經有討論過啦在其實在那個兒權法修法的時候也有討論所以出養越多收入越多就沒有機構而言啦"},{"start":24095.282,"end":24098.923,"text":"現在這位是各位負責多少?差不多兩萬多他到底是負責多少?好像是兩萬五、兩萬六兩萬六?還有理事休息各位這樣?"},{"start":24123.584,"end":24136.573,"text":"然後這個俄府聯盟也不能太挑剔因為他這個錢他還要自己付所以他找品質好的他可能要付更多的錢有這種風險對 有這種風險因為原來的他的那個保姆的話一個月3萬一開始設計這種制度就是一個大錯誤這社會安全網不安全這不是社會安全網這一開始就是一個社會漏洞網"},{"start":24153.666,"end":24181.222,"text":"真的是我們發現問題就是把它糾正過來對啦可是我們只剩8年了你現在跟我講說現在發現問題我們就把它糾正過來我是覺得蠻遺憾的因為這個在道德上風險太大了然後在運作上也是你會讓它整個這個保姆的服務當然是尋求最便宜的當然風險就更大"},{"start":24182.871,"end":24189.915,"text":"尋求最便宜的風險更大,然後在專業的這個出養的評估上,也勢必一定要評估出出養,沒有這個機構,沒有機構就了不起啊,了不起啊。若是外國人來收養更好,因為可以收8000塊錢美金,那台灣人收養的話才收10萬元。"},{"start":24203.722,"end":24231.943,"text":"每一個收養小孩的人他必須就一開始第一階段就要收兩萬第二階段收兩萬五分階段就要繳費不成功呢不成功就是沒多少錢所以都要保證成功這樣子真的是我們把兒童要出養的兒童小孩送入深淵裡面聽起來整個制度不是一個社會安全網是反而把小孩推入深淵深坑裡面"},{"start":24233.251,"end":24233.932,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢 我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":24265.957,"end":24266.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24299.309,"end":24300.136,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24562.11,"end":24566.594,"text":"好 大家請回座我們準備質詢好 接下來我們請李燕秀委員進行質詢請恤部長好 請部長"},{"start":24588.561,"end":24612.447,"text":"好部長辛苦了上個星期三退府會的副主委李文忠說過去8年來民進黨最大的問題不斷在重複錯誤出狀況的時候都太忙於解釋問題而不是解決問題對於內部錯誤的事情時候也不究責同一天賴清德出席活動的時候致詞也談到說政府的存在不是解釋問題而是解決問題"},{"start":24615.465,"end":24624.797,"text":"賴清德的說法你同不同意政府的存在是解決問題而不是解釋問題當然但是了解問題是解決問題的第一步"},{"start":24626.247,"end":24651.133,"text":"對 要解決問題才是民眾要的嘛到今天為止我希望我看到的都是在解決問題而不是推卸責任喔好 部長 我要請問你齁這個案子從12月發生之後兩個多月之後這個事情爆開來一開始你們對外的說法都是說這個案子已經進入司法程序所以你們才沒有召開針對於凱凱這個案子沒有召開專案會議 對不對"},{"start":24655.047,"end":24667.132,"text":"這個其實是地方跟中央的錯誤認知啦你對外的說法是這樣嗎這個案子因為已經進入司法程序你才沒有召開會議但是我就要提醒啊上個禮拜3月15號你們去召開專案會議去做檢討討論"},{"start":24673.675,"end":24677.237,"text":"難道整個檢調司法程序已經終結所以我跟委員報告我從來沒有說一定要等到司法那為什麼這個案子這麼重大的社會案件居然一個會議都沒有召開來事後也沒有任何救責不管檢調在調查的內容是什麼"},{"start":24695.532,"end":24695.792,"text":"這是第一點第二"},{"start":24720.686,"end":24737.445,"text":"部長我還是要提整件事情看到你們的回應報告裡面提到兒童專責醫師的制度那兒科專責醫師的收案方式其實分為兩種一種是自行收案另外一個是指定收案"},{"start":24738.787,"end":24739.667,"text":"現行的兒科專責醫師的計畫,收案是由衛生局直接指派給專責醫師嗎?現行?"},{"start":24768.103,"end":24780.677,"text":"那個如果說這個名單到了衛生局的話衛生局就會幫這些小孩子去找指定的醫師好那部長你知道我們原來兒科專責醫師我們計畫的原來的雛形原來的構想是什麼"},{"start":24785.796,"end":24814.915,"text":"原來的構想本來就是我們希望說說兒科醫師從基層開始來處理那當然因為這個人數的部分的話部長我請問你我如果是一個會兒虐的媽媽我會主動把我孩子常常讓醫生看到嗎所以如果說他定期應該要來這個打疫苗或者是說這個定期的這個健康檢查的時候他沒有來"},{"start":24815.996,"end":24842.614,"text":"那我們要再進一步聯絡他還是拒絕的話那這個就要通報部長這是衛政跟社政單位未來的聯繫的方式部長我今天要跟你探討兒科的專責醫師的計畫原型其實我們本來去年發布的原型是以照顧高風險的個案為主就是以原來比如說極端早產先天性的重大疾病我們希望有一個我們把這些孩子納入這些制度醫療的體系網路去做照顧"},{"start":24846.076,"end":24849.08,"text":"我覺得林立芬次長那一天在記者會上說的就是說額內個案未來要通報我們再往前看前面那個圖其實潛在收案的來源是在這一群裡面但是如果"},{"start":24861.331,"end":24878.833,"text":"高風險而虐的家庭家長不會主動出現嗎這個是我們現在最大的問題所以現在我們就是說這一類高風險的這些個案那要去派他的這個指定他的幼兒專責醫師的時候不需要經過家長同意"},{"start":24880.712,"end":24901.242,"text":"那怎麼找到這些人呢?怎麼找到這些孩子呢?你現在把0到3歲指定給衛生局來指定,可見過去其實這一塊是漏洞嘛你也承認它是漏洞嘛,對不對?今天的問題就是說,新北、台北兩個都沒有去做這件事情"},{"start":24902.841,"end":24902.901,"text":"立法院議員"},{"start":24918.221,"end":24919.803,"text":"社會局就有這些脆弱家庭的名單"},{"start":24935.72,"end":24939.602,"text":"怎麼會沒有選擇選擇家庭的這個選擇這個專責醫生制度這個一切你有沒有去跟他溝通過這一開始執行的時候包括社會局包括衛生局我們都有找來都有溝通過你沒有跟他你確定嗎對從這兩天一切一切的態度你有沒有跟他溝通過就是說"},{"start":24961.513,"end":24978.023,"text":"你後面還有一個訪視制度醫生一個人去人家家裡敲著門他沒有警政單位的配合他沒有社政單位的配合這個制度怎麼形成所以部長 醫生不一定要去執行家訪是要聯絡那個小孩子要帶過來給他看那他如果不來呢他如果不來呢就通知這個社政單位啦他拒絕啦他主動通知他不來"},{"start":24990.109,"end":25012.343,"text":"醫生還要在另外花一個工我覺得部長這個執行面上齁我們不要只推卸責任你現在變成說你找新北台北兩個來開會我覺得一個政策制度要做得好中央地方必須要合作當然你們做計畫很簡單你指定下去你要誰做就誰做但是他們在執行面上可行性怎麼樣有沒有自愛難行的地方我覺得你完全沒有去思考"},{"start":25021.134,"end":25038.14,"text":"這個在設計這個制度的時候其實就有跟這些相關的兒科醫學會我覺得部長部長他們已經有討論過怎麼會沒有思考呢一切的反彈一切的反彈我覺得你必須要去做更多其實兒科醫學會是非常贊成的"},{"start":25039.11,"end":25058.216,"text":"你去跟他們執行面上我覺得執行面上因為大家或許對你現在執行面上要怎麼去處理大家還有很多的問號因為從記者會上的新聞稿對外的說明大家還不知道怎麼去進行但是如果用現行的方式去處理的話大家恐怕有更多的問號醫生都是好你們來看醫生我發現有異狀在我主動通知慎慎單位謹慎單位這沒有問題主動的家訪"},{"start":25067.691,"end":25095.541,"text":"他們的能力就是說他們主動性上有沒有這個時間各方面有沒有這個時間有沒有這個能力我覺得是很大的問號特別現在我們在兒科醫師的現在人力也越來越少的狀況之下我覺得這個都是要去做考量不要讓很多人一切本來願意在這個兒科的專責制度裡面因為你現在不清楚的說明之後很多人退出這樣的一個制度我覺得你要思考清楚"},{"start":25096.221,"end":25104.571,"text":"你不要一個制度執行下去後面才發現這邊又漏了一個洞那邊又漏了一個洞我們今天檢討制度是要把每一個洞補起來"},{"start":25106.348,"end":25107.949,"text":"李燕秀委員的質詢接下來我們請陳培餘委員進行質詢"},{"start":25140.306,"end":25144.91,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長跟理事 謝謝好 來請部長跟次長委員好"},{"start":25149.471,"end":25174.745,"text":"好 部長辛苦了 午安我想我們就社安網快速跟部長討論就是這一次我想很多大家討論的焦點都在社工身上那我們認識非常多在第一線的社工朋友們或者是我們過往熟悉的老師朋友我覺得有一件事情我想要跟部長比較積極的討論當然也許今天時間有限我們必須要後續在辦公室討論其實我相信部長您認不認同我以下要說的這段話"},{"start":25175.265,"end":25175.465,"text":"的確啦,這一個"},{"start":25197.188,"end":25199.391,"text":"加外安置跟照顧系統是不是需要全面的檢討?"},{"start":25215.171,"end":25230.863,"text":"孩子如何離開家進一步我們來想一想在這照顧過程當中尤其是像凱凱這樣的案例必須要來國家承擔這個照顧責任失去原生家庭功能的這些小孩他們所需要的相關資源包含教育包含醫療"},{"start":25231.644,"end":25247.98,"text":"整個社會安全網我們所想像的是社安網而不是社工安全網我想這件事情是不是請部長或是理事有一個表態讓我們第一線的所有基層工作人員不要因為上次的上銬事件的畫面讓大家感到悲痛他們不是被犧牲的對象"},{"start":25248.749,"end":25250.03,"text":"我們都希望趕快把社安網補上"},{"start":25269.597,"end":25286.228,"text":"那我們撇除掉凱凱的案例這確實是一個特例我覺得未來大家要想像的是更多更多的通案而這麼多沒有依靠的兒少他們的替代性照顧這到底是不是國家的責任是地方的責任是中央的責任還是整體地方跟中央必須要承擔的責任這個部分我也想要請部長有所表態因為如果我們不去想這件事情"},{"start":25294.594,"end":25295.115,"text":"這其實就是國家的責任"},{"start":25310.771,"end":25315.697,"text":"我們很開心聽到部長您說是國家的責任我們在去年有一個質詢我們也跟部長討論到關於社安網的漏洞光是在電腦系統裡面我們就可以看出這個問題"},{"start":25330.748,"end":25359.271,"text":"部長跟你分享在頁面的左邊這個綠色藍位的標頭這個是CRC根據CRC公告的中央的網站說相關違反兒少事件必須要公佈姓名的案例右邊是新竹縣也就是說在新竹縣的2022年1月到2024年1月我只是以新竹縣為例在這兩年之間的案例發生在新竹縣衛福部公告23筆可是地方政府公告了41筆"},{"start":25360.472,"end":25367.483,"text":"照理說這應該是一樣的事情他只是登錄在兩個系統但是為什麼會有這麼大的數字上的落差"},{"start":25373.329,"end":25389.124,"text":"這部分是因為中央公告的網站跟地方公告的地方不一致那我剛剛有請同仁我們是不是針對那個怎麼樣子來更新怎麼樣子兩邊資料可以隨時連動這個部分我們在系統上面我們來做進進來做改進"},{"start":25391.571,"end":25414.959,"text":"應該是說其實去年部長就去年12月部長就已經答應但是我相信部長你一定不知道發生了什麼事情我再跟部長分享其中一個案例我們隨便點進去一個畫面你就會發現每一個上傳到中央這個CRC系統的地方有地方政府他只有上傳一個桌面截圖你按進另外一個事件呢那個地方政府就很認真地把這個案由又寫出來但是有地方政府呢他要公告相關的公文"},{"start":25415.279,"end":25430.358,"text":"也就是說相關的兒少事件中央並沒有跟地方有一個好的默契到底我們要公告什麼樣的資料供一般民眾查詢因為基本上CRC這個網站是可以供一般民眾查詢那這個問題到底出在哪裡我們之前已經問過"},{"start":25431.539,"end":25448.734,"text":"那我們來看一下這個是衛福部給我們辦公室的回覆你們說這是你們說的你們說各縣市呢光是公告的位置在網站上不一樣有人放在財閥專區有人放在政府公告有人放在地方政府的最新消息區那甚至在教育部是放在全國課後照顧服務中心資訊網或者是還有實體公布欄"},{"start":25452.657,"end":25481.018,"text":"也就是說你們認為你們沒有相關權限可以要求地方政府在這些事情上統一所以如果民眾要查詢相關資訊的時候他們必須要自己到各個縣市政府去往海撈整項撈資料撈不出來可是回到CRC你們又沒有規定他們要上傳到CRC甚至公告期間不一致這也是非常嚴重的問題公告後不下架或者是地方政府覺得這個罪很輕我放兩天就下架還是到底要不要定期上架下架這件事情你們也沒有態度"},{"start":25483.84,"end":25493.988,"text":"你們告訴我們目前難以執行的原因你們說你們只能定期以行政指導的方法喊請各地方政府通知內部財閥單位要配合到CRC而造法財閥專區登錄案件你們還說跟教育部有關一旦有跨部會職責你們也不能管可是我們發現就有非常多的遺漏啊"},{"start":25503.516,"end":25517.205,"text":"那所有這些無照經營的托嬰中心虐待小孩的人相關的處罰採取的結果大家就查不到啊那查不到後續到底還能夠做什麼那你們告訴我們說你們必須要修兒少全法才能解決這個問題"},{"start":25519.845,"end":25533.491,"text":"這邊我想請李次回應一下,真的只能修法嗎?我們其實研究過相關的執法細則就可以解決這個問題,真的要等到兒少全法,那不然我們就問,兒少全法什麼時候可以修得完?光是公告這件事情就有這麼大的落差"},{"start":25534.717,"end":25550.288,"text":"因為依這個的依法的規定公告是縣市政府要去公告是這個我們都很清楚就在他們的各個業務單位他們去公告那現在我們衛福部西雅溪這個的部分是把大家公告的部分再看怎麼樣子"},{"start":25551.389,"end":25565.055,"text":"建立查詢然後再做彙整所以在這個時間點我們會再去看怎麼樣子做經濟那我們可能需要在法規這部分就要求說地方政府的公告要在哪個地方公告可能會"},{"start":25565.836,"end":25570.699,"text":"那可不可以有機會在耳哨犬法沒有辦法大修的情況下在三個月內有相關的執法因為我剛剛說了撇除凱凱這個個案假設我是一個一般的媽媽我想要找保姆我想知道這個保姆過去有沒有虐兒的事件我去查CRC嗎還是我要去全台灣22個縣市政府的網站我才能查到某某某他到底有沒有虐兒的事件發生"},{"start":25590.439,"end":25612.539,"text":"我這個部分我們會找再把縣市政府找來因為我覺得剛剛同仁講說縣市政府可能有一些抗議那我覺得他抗議的點可能是在於說同仁他必須在不同的地方登錄是增加他們工作上的一個增加好那如果地方縣市政府工作有困難中央這邊你們覺得有沒有什麼方法可以協助地方政府"},{"start":25612.779,"end":25635.354,"text":"我就說我們會開會來討論特別是說如果他是系統可以來解決的問題不要讓地方的同仁同樣一件事情要做兩件事那這個部分我們可以再把地方政府再找來然後看看資訊網站這個部分怎麼樣子做好的一個改善可以讓地方的同仁做完一件事我們中央也可以取得相關的一個資料我覺得這部分我們可以來"},{"start":25635.854,"end":25635.994,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":25656.906,"end":25657.046,"text":"主席"},{"start":25682.079,"end":25682.379,"text":"賴氏寶委員"},{"start":25707.914,"end":25710.636,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進,有請薛部長好,請部長委員好部長你好,辛苦了幾件事情來請教你第一個有關於這個"},{"start":25726.026,"end":25754.701,"text":"陳建仁部長前幾天說院長為了要為了蘇泰隆的事件說要成立食安檢驗基金外界覺得就是蝶蟲家戶而且你已經有食安基金了你這個食安檢驗基金跟食安基金什麼不一樣?什麼地方不一樣?食安基金目前本來在做的就是說"},{"start":25755.761,"end":25783.766,"text":"這些錢可以做什麼?對於有這種團體訴訟的時候可以給他法律上面的一些補助那第二個就是給縣市政府在一些研究上面的話區別什麼區別?但是食安檢驗基金聽起來的話主要是這廠商如果他願意自主檢查阿我們不是有食藥主人嗎?為什麼還有這個基金呢?"},{"start":25785.246,"end":25811.615,"text":"主要是說他要自主檢查的話那可能就是說這一個費用是比較高的所以他們希望說有一個基金來做補助基金來做補助?食藥署呢?食藥署是檢查就是食藥署在做的我們講的是廠商如果要做自主檢查你這個食安檢驗基金什麼時候要開始運作?規模多大?這個部分還沒有討論討論完都5萬人啊"},{"start":25814.424,"end":25832.127,"text":"五二零之後你還在?這個東西陳建仁是丟一個煙霧彈啊很清楚看得到啊因為這個距離五二零的時間大概兩個月五二零之後兩個月的時間丟出這個東西到現在你八字沒一撇啊"},{"start":25833.068,"end":25841.132,"text":"這個其實是在食安基金管理的這個所謂的委員會裡面的話可以去做是啊為什麼要有一個大院長來宣布我覺得這裡面呢很弔詭我就請問你我這樣的一句話因為現在發現不是只有這個蘇丹榮現在看到的辣油紅紅的白胡椒粉也有沙茶醬也有幾乎像水銀洩地到處都有蘇丹榮我講這句話同意嗎"},{"start":25862.741,"end":25878.273,"text":"呃,應該不盡然了。所以現在就是說,因為循線著這個追查下去的話,會到許多後面幾乎都有啊!你什麼地方沒有你告訴我!你告訴我!你告訴我!比如說,委員講說,這一個所謂的沙灑匠"},{"start":25882.777,"end":25910.449,"text":"不是每一個廠牌的剎那醬都有啊所以當然如果他沒有加的這些廠牌、廠商的話他就願意要去做這個部長啊吃到蘇燈籠、吹到蝴蝶籠是什麼?什麼時候會發作?有癌症嗎?這個部分喔,他的癌症是否會治癌其實並沒有在這個研究的報告出來可是為什麼大家都不死?如果這樣子的話我根本就說不用怕,我學部長保證"},{"start":25912.33,"end":25914.651,"text":"聞蘇丹隆聽到蘇丹隆有答案我要驚喜而且衛福部老實不客氣說"},{"start":25936.795,"end":25952.638,"text":"學院部長帶領的衛福部團隊到現在為止給人家感覺就是看到蘇丹龍就舉牌起投降因為沒辦法查什麼邊境管理那是事後啦加強檢驗那個都知道本來就知道為什麼會到現在為止你們就是一副這個內閣變成一個你要說過度內閣不是過度內閣喔白爛內閣喔無政府狀態喔蘇丹龍就是最好的無政府狀態的犧牲"},{"start":25965.18,"end":25969.021,"text":"我必須要承認說當初在邊境把關那個升級的速度太慢反應不夠快結果讓有部分的產品就跑到因為五月的時候開始發現說有"},{"start":25990.808,"end":25994.51,"text":"本來的一些規範就是逐步的升級所以你還是沒有否認我講的話啦好啦沒關係啦我們就調第二題來"},{"start":26017.779,"end":26019.42,"text":"現行的刑法裡面它就是有這死刑的可能性"},{"start":26048.243,"end":26067.792,"text":"沒有啦有119年修的如果是惡意的話他本來就是故意殺人的一種啦不會說只有無期徒刑所以你贊成死刑我問你贊不贊成對這樣事情死刑他就是221條286 我跟你講286"},{"start":26071.534,"end":26087.49,"text":"刑法282但是他沒有排除271條的殺人法好啦我先問你你贊不贊成內核致死的案犯者應該要死刑贊不贊成沒有說每一個案子都一樣的一個處理的所以有些可以這樣處理"},{"start":26089.552,"end":26112.062,"text":"阿沒有要換人要做什麼當然是要經過調查阿一定致死阿你故意你已經成立惡意還有成立喔當然是必須要經過法院的考察那再進一步最惡意的情況惡意喔非常惡意非常惡意的N字房然後讓小孩子致死你正不正的實行"},{"start":26113.764,"end":26137.074,"text":"最惡意、最壞依照現在法律規定是可以判處可以判處?你怎麼贊成的?我問你啊你不要問我這個問題這個我個人的意願沒有辦法去影響到這個問題你是部長餒對,但是我個人的想法不能夠去影響到整個的惡意的虐兒致死以及人神共憤、社會共憤這個時候你難道不敢講一句說我與部長的一個高度"},{"start":26141.736,"end":26146.058,"text":"我絕對贊成死刑這一句話你都不敢講你太冷血啦這個因為部長的高度不應該去做這種判斷所以不能判斷因為他為什麼會這樣子有一個司法系統在那邊你今天早上難道你道歉道歉假的啊也是因為你們管理不善你已經對這個事情道歉了你已經對這個事情道歉了"},{"start":26167.95,"end":26168.991,"text":"中央地方的責任你認為多少開?五五開?六四開?多少開?你跟我講一下"},{"start":26196.576,"end":26198.277,"text":"臺北市就報一個說北市兒少通報結果你們馬上說臺北市出來兩個孽兒"},{"start":26219.881,"end":26224.823,"text":"你們戴風向啊!部長!不能這樣理啦!和尚保護的通報,那我們並沒有說被人調!移啊!你們就想移一次!你給人嚇的啊!當然就是有可能啊!你怎麼可以這樣子就下定論?我為什麼關心這個事?"},{"start":26236.067,"end":26244.132,"text":"因為這兩個這個關愛之家在我的選區情況不是你講那個樣子情況我沒有時間了情況我掌握得很清楚他就是一個移工的小孩在關愛之家就在文山區的選區裡面"},{"start":26258.039,"end":26265.681,"text":"對啦就是那個你敢說你敢說你敢說是虐兒這東西里長都反對阿對啦阿就不愛上阿就不愛上那個你講這個我為什麼今天已經問你因為我的里長打電話給我喔不是我的里長文山區的里長他也是聯議會的會長"},{"start":26280.124,"end":26299.895,"text":"國外職交就在文山區的一個里長連理會會長的那個里裡面他說衛生、衛生、衛生部的部長軟骨叫我一天來講你叫軟骨你就軟骨我從來沒說那些事你現在說啊不能講你都不能講啊沒有責任就這樣"},{"start":26302.332,"end":26306.516,"text":"不是嗎?不是額略嗎?我能夠這樣講嗎?你為什麼要提額略呢?你就按照人家臺北市政府給你通報就是額掃的額掃通報你就接接受嗎?你說我們要調查的話你不這樣子,你就戴個帽子,噢噢噢,於是"},{"start":26321.089,"end":26321.249,"text":"最後一個 時間到了"},{"start":26334.793,"end":26352.075,"text":"你現在的健保點數1點換幾塊錢?0點幾?如果計算到最後的話大概都要0.90.9左右啦齁?什麼時候可以到1塊錢?這要整個的總額預算制度要翻掉才有可能"},{"start":26353.422,"end":26355.845,"text":"總而說一上次數底下就這樣子什麼時候什麼時候可以可以可以時間表"},{"start":26370.894,"end":26392.309,"text":"要修法我們呢你什麼我不知道我一直疑問520你會不會留下來雖然你是新潮流留下來機會也很大兩件很荒謬的事情過度內閣不應該做一個大的事情你們的食安檢驗基金不應該是過度政府來做第二個"},{"start":26393.149,"end":26395.79,"text":"建保一塊錢這次要修法是絕對沒有錯委員的意思是說我不應該提修法"},{"start":26420.899,"end":26422.139,"text":"社會對你普遍是討厭你的"},{"start":26448.647,"end":26451.07,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲張雅玲張雅玲委員不在請郭育晴委員進行質詢"},{"start":26476.485,"end":26481.238,"text":"主席好有請部長辛苦了好來部長請"},{"start":26486.726,"end":26505.245,"text":"部長好我想這次的這個事件其實造成臺灣社會很大的一個震撼尤其是當過媽媽的其實我自己也非常非常難過那也感到痛心那在這裡其實我想要先請教一下部長到底當這個個案他在12月24號死亡"},{"start":26507.828,"end":26519.103,"text":"之後的這三個月這中間到底是誰來做所謂的通報的平台我們又是誰應該要來做這個資料的一個彙整然後再來做個案的一個處理"},{"start":26520,"end":26540.399,"text":"如果依照現行的規定是這樣子那第一個地方的社會局必須要向中央來做通報這個有做他們在什麼時候通報的?應該25號但是第二個要做的就是地方就必須判斷他是重大"},{"start":26541.279,"end":26568.399,"text":"而內事件的時候他就要召開檢討會議在10天之內要召開召開之後有了這個會議的結論的話兩個禮拜之內要送到中央來中央的話會看他的這個檢討會議的記錄來評估說有沒有必要再找地方政府過來做更詳細的說明他釐清這個案情的來龍去脈"},{"start":26569.961,"end":26587.24,"text":"以及這個提出這個地方提出的這個檢討的這個改善的措施是否可以執行我想因為事情演變到今天其實我覺得不管是中央或者地方甚至於在所謂的我們認可的這些兒福的機構"},{"start":26588.141,"end":26588.281,"text":"主席"},{"start":26604.591,"end":26622.481,"text":"這個重大的決定就像是自費武功是一樣的一個道理那當然必須經過所謂的主管機關許可的財團法人公私立兒童以及少年安置的一個教養機構當然這樣子的一個用意其實就是為了怕私下的所謂的這個收養、出養"},{"start":26623.646,"end":26638.859,"text":"會產生一些弊端產生一些問題但是後來其實在我們以現階段來講只有8家合可那這8家當中其實又其中這一次的這一個部分其實是不是也等於在這中間不管是誰來監導誰來督導其實他是出現問題將來他合可的條件是不是應該要更加嚴苛"},{"start":26644.482,"end":26665.198,"text":"對,其實我們整個8家那這些都會再進一步來做一些檢討,包括這個許可的辦法,我們也必須要做檢討所謂的檢討是什麼?有沒有一個具體的一個方案?因為其實我覺得大家想要看的是這個部分因為有太多、太多捐款人他們的愛心其實真的被辜負了"},{"start":26668.761,"end":26688.878,"text":"對這8家的話,我們應該要去做一些業務上面的要求比如說他的這個員工薪資,他的這個訪視的機制包括說他去判斷出養的必要性,當然未來出養必要性就不會在這裡了"},{"start":26689.795,"end":26710.96,"text":"好那因為今天是因為時間的關係我快速的其實在目前為止我們知道所有的這個因為這次的這個案件凱凱他渾身上下其實我們看到的他幾乎已經是被虐殺的一個狀況其實大家都非常的不忍喔那當然其實我們也暫緩了這次這個額富聯盟他的一個業務那這個暫緩之後我們的政府怎麼補上呢怎麼補救呢"},{"start":26717.948,"end":26735.342,"text":"目前是新收的先暫停了那接下來的話我們可能就要去了解說他的這個基金會本身在內部的話那對於這些社工的教育訓練還有薪資條件等等這些的話到底是不是適合"},{"start":26736.262,"end":26737.183,"text":"因為其實我們"},{"start":26765.405,"end":26765.945,"text":"我們現在就準備這樣做"},{"start":26783.593,"end":26799.848,"text":"好那另外其實剛剛有提到所謂的人力的部分包含我們的社工其實他們的工作量按是非常非常之大的那當然其實我們也知道就是從今年開始其實在所謂的社工他們的一些薪資的部分其實有做了一些調整可是"},{"start":26800.689,"end":26816.801,"text":"也針對所謂的風險加急的這個部分我們採用了所謂的定額制那這個定額制其實真的也形同就是已經取消了所謂的風險分級是不是相對來講其實有些社工他們會覺得他是變相的被減刑這個部分我不知道"},{"start":26818.055,"end":26819.356,"text":"社會安全網推動情形及策進作為"},{"start":26842.506,"end":26851.043,"text":"但是其實我們也會擔心所謂的這個必須要民間力量的一些初級以及次級的預防的工作反而會沒有人來擔任喔你們有考慮到這個問題嗎"},{"start":26854.141,"end":26855.682,"text":"其實真的針對這一次凱凱的事件是全台灣人的痛"},{"start":26877.071,"end":26902.233,"text":"那我們真的真的誠懇的希望不管是地方也好我們的中央也好我們不希望這個孩子在最後痛苦離開的時候最後只收到來自於機構一個冰冷的時代這是我衷心期盼的不要再有下一個孩子受害了我們一起來努力好嗎好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝郭育琴委員的質詢接下來我們請"},{"start":26904.384,"end":26909.532,"text":"葉圓芝 葉圓芝 葉圓芝委員不在 我們請范雲委員進行質詢有請部長好 有請薛部長"},{"start":26926.658,"end":26942.363,"text":"部長午安我想我們從早上到下午這個虐嬰致死的悲劇讓整個社會都很震驚我們也檢討了非常多我其實是想先請問部長您是哪一個部的部長"},{"start":26944.925,"end":26959.92,"text":"衛福部的根據官網職責是在中央衛生福利部為我國最高衛生及社會福利行政機關負責全國衛生及社會福利行政事務並對各級地方衛生及社會福利機關負有業務指導監督和協調的責任這個沒錯吧"},{"start":26964.024,"end":26990.338,"text":"所以我想這件事情第一線的機構地方政府當然是很有責任可是中央我想你們之前也有聲明過有明確的監督指導協調的責任那我今天主要是針對社工的事情想請問您那全國除了衛生是您督導全國社會福利事務責任上也是由您總督導沒錯吧"},{"start":26992.031,"end":27015.049,"text":"那因為衛福部3月13號有三點聲明我看到新聞都是次長李立芬跟社工司長蘇司長在回應我想請問您個人這次社工被上手銬的事件您個人有什麼看法這一個部分的話當然個案是否有刑事上的責任這個我們近代這個調查之後我們先不以置評"},{"start":27015.99,"end":27038.91,"text":"但是對於我們全國的社工在他們的工作上面所做的努力讓整個國家的社會安全網能夠維持住我們是非常的感激的至於說這個過程當中有這樣上手銬的做法的話我想警政機關也已經做出了檢討"},{"start":27040.86,"end":27043.643,"text":"所以你也覺得警政機關應該檢討嗎?對,他們已經做了檢討那我是想請問衛福部下一頁"},{"start":27051.896,"end":27076.264,"text":"衛福部就是為我們第一線社工做了哪些事因為其實社工的工作有非常多的暴力行為的當事人他是個高風險的工作以我這邊就是網路上這次事件之後社工講到自己的安全的時候譬如說有一位就講找警察供訪警察叫社工先深入險境警察在外面等"},{"start":27077.344,"end":27100.654,"text":"還有就是家暴的時候被相對人反鎖在家裡家訪完被黑衣人圍毆所以其實社工本身常常會面對出現暴力行為的當事人那我想請問就是說您作為部長您知道雖然衛福部的相關的安全指引有講到"},{"start":27101.314,"end":27116.251,"text":"得請求警察,因為這是你們自己中央裡面有寫的可是警察也可以拒絕,不完全配合因為我查到的是,高雄台中市政府也是只有寫得,卻沒有寫警察一定得配合"},{"start":27116.951,"end":27138.2,"text":"高雄市政府是我找到裡面有寫被請求之機關應與配合很明確的說當社工得請求警察機關的配合的時候那我只看到當然我沒有把全國都找完了衛福部作為這個中央的部分似乎在這個部分還相對的不足這是第一個我想講的"},{"start":27138.8,"end":27159.265,"text":"可是你看到據說這次因為這個創傷那社工的一些臉書上就請大家來分享各自的創傷那這邊是我們的辦公室找了幾個一位是自殺防治的社工談完之後對方就跳下去了然後他的創傷是沒能把對方留到警察到現場那另一位呢"},{"start":27160.385,"end":27183.211,"text":"是服務一位開瓦斯自殺的社工,後來他也是不斷地哭,哪裡沒做好,不斷地指責自己。那這邊右上方是一位,是說他讓新生兒就是被從母親身旁帶走,因為擔心母親是不是有虐待小孩,但是後來這位母親就是相對人,就自殺了。"},{"start":27184.111,"end":27205.309,"text":"所以這位社工也活在懷疑自己的決定安置小孩是不是對的那母親是不是其實沒有虐待小孩以死捍衛自己的清白那最後一位是他的案主後來涉入刑事案件上銬被帶走案主走之前還跟他揮手道別所以他也很自責是不是自己做得不夠好"},{"start":27206.31,"end":27217.303,"text":"導致案主出事所以我想部長並不會反對就是說社工的工作其實面對到非常多的創傷已經有很多的自責部長不反對吧"},{"start":27218.848,"end":27240.72,"text":"其實這些都是一些遺憾的案例當然都是案例可是我們隨便找找這次事件之後就有人這麼多分享我要講的事情是我希望部長可以了解到據說衛福部如果是社福的主管機關那社工是社安網的最基層的勞工他們面臨到的是一個保護很少"},{"start":27242.12,"end":27268.886,"text":"創傷跟自責很多的工作所以現在社工已經自主的把3月12號就是社工上課那天叫做社工集體創傷日那他們馬上社工工會就要來衛福部門口抗議了所以我想請問就是部長你有什麼對策面對全台社工已經在一個高風險我們給他們的資源保護非常少"},{"start":27269.426,"end":27293.952,"text":"可是他們工作的本質就是創傷非常多加上這個上銬的事情那衛福部的反應有反應但是也是慢了半拍是在工會發了聲明說第二天那我們次長有反應出來有是說有三點聲明那衛福部有什麼對策就面對我們安全網最基層的勞工現在的這個集體創傷"},{"start":27295.932,"end":27299.075,"text":"第一點你們自己中央的手冊方面就應該要白紙黑字寫警察機關必須要配合嗎?"},{"start":27319.813,"end":27344.033,"text":"不是像社工看到的還說社工你先進去我在外面等你那社工有權利要求他陪他進去嗎不可能嗎所以這個部分的SOP就必須要檢討修正那其他呢社工的創傷也很多這些都不講待遇了這個部分的話當然我們是希望就是說能夠把大家"},{"start":27346.495,"end":27370.64,"text":"整合起來因為這方面的話那集體的一些所謂的創傷那要去宣洩出來那我們應該有提供這樣子一個管道可以來做那第三個部分的話那就是對於社工所在執行業務所發生的一些事情那一些困難他需要有支持"},{"start":27371.965,"end":27388.09,"text":"這個支持除了他原單位裡面可能會有督導這樣子的一個系統來做支持之外的話那我們希望就是說我們未來在部裡面也應該有一個這樣的平台來接受他們的一些意見或者說一些經驗"},{"start":27392.691,"end":27416.972,"text":"能夠有專家來那因為時間遠過我剛聽到三點第一個針對警察應協助社工的部分你們會去修改相關的中央的規定指引第二個社工的創傷你們會有就是說相關的輔導跟服務第三點你們這個系統的部分也會檢視我想要盡快的邀我們全國的社工一起來聽聽他們的集體的心聲那我是覺得還非常不夠"},{"start":27420.635,"end":27447.98,"text":"為什麼今天要請部長您來答因為我們衛福部長期以衛生為主導社福總是次長在領導我會認為就是您部長應該要更花心思出來理解我們社會福利尤其是我們基層的社安網的勞工的心聲如果連社工都大幅出走的話那我很難想像我們社安網如何給民眾信心好不好那拜託部長可不可以給我辦公室一個報告好嗎"},{"start":27448.66,"end":27448.92,"text":"謝謝部長 加油 謝謝"},{"start":27461.084,"end":27486.801,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請 林思明 林思明 林思明委員不在黃建豪 黃建豪 黃建豪委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在謝一鳳 謝一鳳 謝一鳳委員不在顏寬恒 顏寬恒 顏寬恒委員不在林國成 林國成 林國成委員不在接下來我們請黃國昌委員進行諮詢"},{"start":27503.798,"end":27505.8,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長好來部長請委員好"},{"start":27513.076,"end":27540.906,"text":"部長其實發生這樣的悲劇我相信大家看了都很難過當然更重要的事情是我們真的很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況那我們社會安全網的強化第一期計畫第二期計畫部長你會不會覺得很奇怪為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反正"},{"start":27543.019,"end":27569.398,"text":"這個部分應該是通報吧是通報的當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓這個本來是在黑數的地方的這些案件量會跑出來就齁這個是通報數嘛就實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來去比但是呢這一次發生這樣的悲劇我必須要跟部長說齁就讓我想到2019年的時候"},{"start":27570.859,"end":27588.435,"text":"其實一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室在這個會議室其實有做過那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情看到說多數額內的案件失業者是父母或實際照顧的人但這一次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候"},{"start":27589.136,"end":27608.681,"text":"我之前公開了記者會其實我有想要公開請教一下部長就是我看不懂的事情是說衛福部認為說這個保姆不是實際的照顧者因為如果是這樣解釋的話我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤那這樣子的解釋部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":27609.981,"end":27634.188,"text":"我不認同你不認同嗎對我不認同那或許未來可能部長回去找一下就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候誠實的面對問題因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋不僅沒有辦法解決問題只會造成更大的問題部長您同意嗎"},{"start":27634.868,"end":27661.715,"text":"對,所以在我們今天的這個檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點因為這個是長久以來在社政的單位裡面他們因為分工的非常細所以一碰到問題第一個要想說這是屬於誰要負責我們吼先不是以這個個案為重心我們以法論法啦而造法施行細則有把它限定在說實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎?"},{"start":27663.764,"end":27690.929,"text":"這個是在講的是102條的在講是嘛但我們現在在講的是49條跟53條嘛所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息嘛錯誤的訊息錯了我肯定部長在這邊沒有要凹沒有要文過是非錯了就錯了嘛好接下來齁讓我另外一個覺得非常困惑的事情是說"},{"start":27692.355,"end":27713.938,"text":"前面說是施行細則現於家庭內後來這個說法被戳破了以後改變另外一個說法說因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡配合檢警調查所以沒有按額內的處理程序來加以處理對於這樣子的說法部長你同意嗎?我不同意"},{"start":27714.719,"end":27728.19,"text":"你也不同意嗎?那所以是媒體的記者對次長的說法有扭曲嗎?因為我看到這樣的說法,我非常非常震驚啊。這是不是讓次長來說,來請。謝謝委員,我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開兒女的重大"},{"start":27737.559,"end":27763.474,"text":"並不是說這不是重大額虐的案件我先提一下沒有召開額虐的重大會議可以用檢察官在偵辦所以不用召開當作擋箭牌嗎應該是還沒召開可是因為我們我們先釐清一下嘛所以你也認為應該要召開只是還沒召開嘛對所以跟檢察官的偵查一點關係都沒有嘛是那我們是在配合調查還沒有釐清是不是一個因為齁"},{"start":27765.416,"end":27779.649,"text":"當這件事情發生的時候全體國人都在看衛福部的態度我們在開記者會的時候地方政府有錯就像黃珊珊委員講的臺北市你們自己就是當事人推什麼推啊但"},{"start":27780.393,"end":27795.902,"text":"我們在國會要監督的是中央的部門中央的部門在面對這些問題的態度的時候我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過是非"},{"start":27796.957,"end":27818.731,"text":"部長我帶您看這個是2022年的時候臺中市政府針對那個時候也是外界質疑發生額內事件的時候他們沒有處理好臺中市政府他們給臺中市議會的調查報告部長我建議您我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕"},{"start":27819.671,"end":27848.678,"text":"我是很持平的看您回去看齁臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告從內容的檢討到究責而且已給剪掉了已給剪掉他們提內容的檢討跟究責跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有也沒有尾一倍我希望啦齁最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上"},{"start":27851.639,"end":27864.806,"text":"之前的報告是內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係至於剛剛委員提到這個刑事調查的過程其實不妨礙行政調查因為他的目的是不一樣的"},{"start":27864.926,"end":27880.028,"text":"部長 您說這樣的話我非常的認同啊終於有一個法律人站在備詢台上說實話了刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛好很好"},{"start":27883.273,"end":27910.06,"text":"第二個問題是我要follow我上一次請教部長的問題蘇丹紅的事件我在這邊跟您說說你輸入的時間要公告你當天也給我承諾了嘛部長對吧我的記憶沒有錯啊你當天給我承諾啦說要公告啊但很奇怪啊我上去外府部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊"},{"start":27913.496,"end":27928.759,"text":"您答應我那食藥署不做是上令下面可以不服從嗎因為我相信部長不會騙我啊你答應我說輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道啊啊怎麼現在專區還沒有"},{"start":27930.878,"end":27954.944,"text":"這個我再確定一下因為這邊有寫說檢驗結果的日期這個是跟輸入的日期是否一致不一樣我現在可以直接跟部長講不一樣那如果是這樣的話那就少了一個好因為我為什麼一直在追輸入的日期下一張我馬上就秀答案給部長看因為那時候部長說我們2023年12月11號已經開始逐批查驗了"},{"start":27959.645,"end":27982.338,"text":"之前我在問高雄的公司的時候我覺得很奇怪竹坯茶園怎麼進得來您說那個是在竹坯茶園之前嘛但部長請您看一下我為什麼要追進口的進來的時間你有沒有看到啊在保興公司裡面有2024年1月2號跟2月17號1月2號跟2月17號那個是在竹坯茶園之後喔"},{"start":27986.019,"end":27999.03,"text":"那問題就來了啊既然都已經逐批查驗了怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的還會被驗出來那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎部長您懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":28001.292,"end":28019.307,"text":"這是什麼狀況這我再釐清一下看看好 那個齁請部長齁就是說竟然已經逐批查驗逐批查驗給我們所有的消費者的信心就是說我們的政府在海關做好把關了嘛那顯然不是這個樣子啊逐批查驗了竟然還進來這個 這個是什麼狀況"},{"start":28022.941,"end":28044.29,"text":"這我再釐清一下請部長釐清完了以後給我一個完整的說明可以嗎因為這個真的會牽涉到消費者的信心喔如果當消費者知道說我們政府在海關逐批茶葉但是還有東西流進來那這個逐批茶葉可能就大有問題了這我們再把它釐清一下到底是怎麼樣OK好謝謝"},{"start":28048.021,"end":28049.962,"text":"主席謝謝我想在開始詢問之前我先做程序發言"},{"start":28071.707,"end":28096.406,"text":"早上9點鐘的時候民進黨的委員在這邊講說主席有可能不公正所以還要提案但是到目前整個這樣質詢下來現在已經是4點20分了我看到主席不管是國民黨委員、民進黨委員、民眾黨委員輪流質詢都是主持意識非常的明快果斷並且有效率"},{"start":28096.946,"end":28115.386,"text":"而且民進黨委員沒有一位表達說主席主持的不公正也因此我這邊再一次的鄭重講今天上午這樣的一個將近一個小時的時間有媒體下標說是藍綠互炒很抱歉"},{"start":28116.718,"end":28144.175,"text":"國民黨團從來沒有要吵國民黨團今天的目標目的就只有一個就是要求衛福部來為黃委員會好好的跟國人接受質詢並且說明清楚是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂的權宜問題並且誣衊主席不公正所以這邊本席在這邊在講發言之前質詢之前一定要再做一個這個程序發言"},{"start":28145.516,"end":28161.985,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我是不是可以請這個衛福部薛瑞文部長好來 部長請委員好部長發生這件事件大家都覺得非常難過對但是"},{"start":28164.312,"end":28179.35,"text":"每一個不幸的事件背後我們應該要記取教訓並且好好的去預防下一次有可能是在發生你同意嗎對我們什麼時候知道衛福部這邊知道說這個凱凱的一個不幸離世的事件"},{"start":28180.535,"end":28195.233,"text":"其實是在隔日啦,他死亡的隔日12月25號對,他就...衛福部知道,當時第一個通報的是保護司那再來台北市政府也有在通報社家屬"},{"start":28196.476,"end":28198.877,"text":"那我想請教全台灣有多少的這種收初養媒合的這一些未滿3歲的初養童"},{"start":28217.024,"end":28245.266,"text":"到目前為止,我們媒合了,衛福部這邊媒合了多少?我們之前掌握的是177個177位?對,還沒有衛滿3歲3歲以下的目前目前啦那媒合的?對,等待媒合那我說說已經媒合了,現在有保母收養的出養童,衛滿3歲現在有幾位?這要看什麼時候開始算"},{"start":28247.752,"end":28269.763,"text":"我們到現在還不知道嗎?已經收養成功了嘛,要看什麼時候開始算那會不會有我們這個出養的會不會有還有被虐待的問題?出養之後的被虐待那就是屬於這個家內的也就是說這個要通報,仍然是要通報啦"},{"start":28270.083,"end":28289.1,"text":"你再回過來釐清一下就是說本席現在想要釐清的是你12月25號、12月27號你們就已經知道衛福部就已經知道了嘛那當時沒有任何的警覺或是思考是說全台灣目前有多少一樣的狀況會不會也正遭受到"},{"start":28290.236,"end":28291.897,"text":"什麼時候請地方去了解的?"},{"start":28318.423,"end":28318.584,"text":"上個禮拜"},{"start":28321.346,"end":28346.495,"text":"所以你12月25號、27號就知道有凱凱這個事件發生了但你直到上個禮拜因為媒體報導出來之後你們才要地方政府趕快去看說現在有收養的177位有沒有一樣的狀況或是說有沒有被收養不妥對待那我想請教過去這兩三個月在做什麼對 所以我跟委員報告這程序上應該這樣當他通報之後他就要去開檢討的會議是地方"},{"start":28349.016,"end":28368.444,"text":"地方在10天之內召開檢討會議之後的話要在兩週之內把報告給我們現在的狀況是你12月25號、27號衛福部也知道了那全台灣有多少的這個初養童你說有177位是不是散播在全台灣"},{"start":28369.728,"end":28391.65,"text":"是嘛 他就不是只是單一縣市的問題嘛對 那現在就不管是說地方這邊什麼時候出去報告你照理講你衛福部身為中央主管機關你應該做一件事就是那我們趕快來確認即便是有社工每個月有去做確認但是如同凱凱這件事件來講他也是每個月有訪視啊"},{"start":28392.731,"end":28417.812,"text":"可是到時候發生這樣的憾事大家也是講是說是不是訪視的過程沒有落實沒有直接去看那你怎麼不會想是說那還有沒有其他的初養童也有一樣的狀況或是說我們至少多一份關心多一份瞭解對啦這個部分其實是在這個過程當中應該是提及早去做關心跟瞭解這我同意為什麼本席會講這樣的話"},{"start":28420.336,"end":28445.554,"text":"本期在交通委員會之前太魯閣事件的時候當時也沒有人想到是說有可能工地邊坡要施工而造成到時候太魯閣耗的一個狀況所以隔一天之後交通部馬上下令全台所有邊坡部分先停工去做一個禮拜內兩個禮拜去做一個徹底的釐清安全無虞之後然後才去開放施工"},{"start":28446.636,"end":28471.795,"text":"那一樣的道理嗎?當你們已經知道說12月25號、12月27號怎麼每個月都已經有社工委員去訪視了還會發生凱凱這樣子一個不幸的事件的時候還有147個初養童為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心要去做查看?因為這一些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查就是有一定的機制凱凱這一家案件沒有一定的機制嗎?那為什麼還會發生這樣的情況?"},{"start":28476.789,"end":28495.302,"text":"不過我講比較不好意思這樣對得起離開的人嗎對阿所以這一個部分的話我們事後有就重新再查了一遍但是我跟委員報告這種事情會不會檢討在這件事件上面有沒有檢討當然有那會有相關的內部懲處究責嗎"},{"start":28501.426,"end":28520.213,"text":"這個應該不是內部懲處的問題因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子那剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了就是說在法規的解釋上面過去就是這個樣子來那本席再請教部長你剛剛回覆喔說因為是時間太趕所以你報告寫得不好"},{"start":28521.033,"end":28538.634,"text":"是不是對本席也看到這報告我真的確實我沒有辦法看下去甚至我講是說你這種條列是一點一點的用GPT可能3秒鐘都生成出來當然我不是要我不是要否定我們公務同仁基層公務同仁的努力"},{"start":28539.275,"end":28561.232,"text":"可是這樣的報告你出來就是讓大家覺得說你衛福部不想面對好 那我請教剛剛你講說因為時間的關係你沒有辦法出具比較完整的報告那我們現在給你時間一個禮拜可不可以看委員會這邊的決議是怎樣一個禮拜可不可以退回給你們嘛早上已經退回給你們嘛"},{"start":28562.012,"end":28562.373,"text":"一個禮拜可不可以"},{"start":28587.145,"end":28595.894,"text":"一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府"},{"start":28597.045,"end":28614.385,"text":"的一個檢討報告本席也希望本席有看過那份檢討報告本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向整體的一個考量讓國人知道說衛福部真的是完真的中央地方其實應該是一條心"},{"start":28615.947,"end":28615.967,"text":"好"},{"start":28638.502,"end":28657.697,"text":"最後 抱歉主席一分鐘時間社工員也是真的是非常的辛苦所以本席想要請教一下之前我們有提到在112年底增加禁用包括地方政府的專業人員包括這一些社工缺工的問題說"},{"start":28659.919,"end":28672.048,"text":"112年年底增加禁用達6198人那請教我們預計到目前有達到我們衛福部預計的6198人目前的話是4190還差了快2000人社工的部分還差了快2000人是不是剛剛6199是全部的專業"},{"start":28683.677,"end":28701.442,"text":"6199是全部的專業人員那社工是我們希望達到4190那目前的話實際上的這一個所有的從業的人員是5452所以大概已經達到87%社工的部分是3733人所以大概是89%"},{"start":28706.857,"end":28726.983,"text":"都還是沒有達到預期那經過這個事件本席當然不希望但大家會講是說有可能是社工荒因為保護新的社工也面臨高風險、高案量、高壓力的三高以及缺乏督導合作資源的三缺那這樣的一個部分衛福部到底有沒有"},{"start":28728.467,"end":28742.726,"text":"正是這個問題要來做解決?對,這當然我們會針對問題去做解決一方面的話就是而且經過凱凱這個事件讓全國看到會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難?"},{"start":28745.024,"end":28762.152,"text":"這要觀察啦本席當然不希望因為社工除了他有他的一個工作使命以外社工當然他們也很專業但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是當做功德所以合理的報酬跟合理的待遇一定要提供"},{"start":28762.972,"end":28763.792,"text":"未來經濟要怎麼做?"},{"start":28786.217,"end":28800.027,"text":"這部分的話當然就是說一方面當然委員提到了薪資的問題是薪資的改善第二個是他需要資源他是需要有人來支持這支持包括社工內部的支持跟"},{"start":28801.789,"end":28818.209,"text":"社工之外的人員的支持,比如說出去出勤的時候,有的針對不同的個案,可能需要警察人員陪同,這樣子的一個支持。內部的支持就是說,"},{"start":28822.023,"end":28822.644,"text":"我們謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢"},{"start":28850.799,"end":28857.045,"text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊黃珊珊黃珊珊委員不在羅志強羅志強羅志強委員不在我們請羅廷偉委員進行質詢"},{"start":28877.918,"end":28891.851,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來"},{"start":28893.292,"end":28912.035,"text":"我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意"},{"start":28912.575,"end":28929.709,"text":"那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長好部長好"},{"start":28938.086,"end":28964.021,"text":"部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總諮詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想"},{"start":28965.962,"end":28986.239,"text":"大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長凱凱這個事件呢我個人認為"},{"start":28987.461,"end":29004.803,"text":"當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是"},{"start":29006.364,"end":29015.334,"text":"中央、地方都有責任我不是一昧的就是要把它推卸給任何一個單位但我們希望關注到的是藉由這件事情發生了我們怎麼去把它給彌補出來"},{"start":29019.466,"end":29043.033,"text":"第一個我想政府的保姆訓練阿怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎"},{"start":29044.771,"end":29048.865,"text":"這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的一個新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳"},{"start":29052.033,"end":29079.531,"text":"應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是"},{"start":29080.071,"end":29099.331,"text":"在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都"},{"start":29100.812,"end":29127.001,"text":"竿子打翻所有的人我想在這個托育人員以及社工真的是他們的士氣非常的低迷我想這個部分也是我們今天要探討的我想在這樣子凱凱的一個特殊的孩子的一個背景之下沒有爸爸媽媽的疼愛那祖父母也養不起所以只能選擇出養但在這麼多的一個保姆為什麼會選擇流性保姆他的標準在哪裡這部分你有要補充嗎"},{"start":29129.165,"end":29134.611,"text":"這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的"},{"start":29136.071,"end":29164.007,"text":"部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲這是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這一個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善"},{"start":29168.01,"end":29190.968,"text":"請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這一個多方的一個訪查"},{"start":29192.269,"end":29216.904,"text":"來互相來做這個check跟監督啊,這樣會比較有…謝謝,那我就補充一下啊,臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制,所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎?我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣,如果同時三方一起去的話,大概效果就不好"},{"start":29218.784,"end":29244.13,"text":"應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。"},{"start":29245.11,"end":29269.231,"text":"對 所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對 但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦 當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺啦勞師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎"},{"start":29269.771,"end":29288.98,"text":"對 我們現在就是打算這樣做那再來呢 我也要跟你 因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論以及網路的一些相關資訊但我這邊呢 會後我想提供包括臺中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書到現在 雞北北桃"},{"start":29290.02,"end":29316.434,"text":"我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的"},{"start":29317.515,"end":29331.349,"text":"你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練"},{"start":29333.459,"end":29357.442,"text":"他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所,要能夠有這種零託但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛,可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊"},{"start":29357.862,"end":29383.27,"text":"他就是托育人員他總要他要跟欸對不起羅廷偉立委今天我不帶你的孩子麻煩你把你的孩子帶回去因為我要在職訓練對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧"},{"start":29383.55,"end":29398.562,"text":"那您就要看著我抱著孩子來這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積"},{"start":29400.223,"end":29420.916,"text":"對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的這真的是家長要的嗎給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員"},{"start":29421.817,"end":29422.257,"text":"剛剛有很多人為社工講話"},{"start":29444.921,"end":29469.48,"text":"他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日"},{"start":29470.697,"end":29490.633,"text":"那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本行建議"},{"start":29493.055,"end":29501.099,"text":"您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎"},{"start":29509.645,"end":29533.333,"text":"當然如果有時間的話是可以的,不過我沒有把握說一定卡得出來我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦,有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我真的是要真的特別麻煩你,如果有空的話請讓你親自去,如果沒空我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意,讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們,去了解他們的心聲"},{"start":29534.153,"end":29558.37,"text":"我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防治壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點"},{"start":29559.611,"end":29560.011,"text":"其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點"},{"start":29583.664,"end":29607.435,"text":"你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論"},{"start":29611.457,"end":29612.177,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢"},{"start":29640.873,"end":29643.037,"text":"許宇珍、羅明財、萬美玲、吳佩儀委員"},{"start":29651.192,"end":29663.139,"text":"王美惠委員不在王鴻薇委員不在鄭振淺委員不在林德福委員不在徐欣穎委員不在李坤澄委員不在何欣淳委員不在張家俊委員不在游皓委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在吳思瑤委員不在"},{"start":29680.31,"end":29682.751,"text":"我們請牛許庭委員進行質詢好,謝謝主席,這個衛福部長有請好,我們請部長"},{"start":29701.67,"end":29721.701,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出若干問題來跟部長做一下探討"},{"start":29723.222,"end":29741.93,"text":"從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。"},{"start":29745.434,"end":29772.632,"text":"這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除的原因"},{"start":29773.272,"end":29797.931,"text":"但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒有啦沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎"},{"start":29799.867,"end":29807.191,"text":"據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的"},{"start":29827.549,"end":29852.325,"text":"因為沒有合作過所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家即便有家庭願意收養"},{"start":29853.186,"end":29853.206,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":29874.639,"end":29893.527,"text":"我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣,國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩"},{"start":29894.187,"end":29918.073,"text":"那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎"},{"start":29919.613,"end":29946.986,"text":"不是,不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養人、收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嗎?我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛,要不然萬一又要收出養後在家裡面處得不愉快大家回頭過來究責,大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講,它證明了一件事啊"},{"start":29947.426,"end":29966.934,"text":"就是說我們如果我們這個要交給這個從收出養的方式交給民間自行處理這個孩童被無人照顧的問題我們我們我們把這些防防跟防賊一樣大家非常小心非常謹慎可是今天這兒戀案事實證明政府政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇"},{"start":29968.235,"end":29990.037,"text":"所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性"},{"start":29991.599,"end":30015.933,"text":"報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完"},{"start":30016.934,"end":30036.452,"text":"好 但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告OK 可以好不好 這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以這回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個"},{"start":30037.153,"end":30037.293,"text":"會不會做檢討跟修正?"},{"start":30054.398,"end":30081.624,"text":"目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分"},{"start":30083.035,"end":30098.363,"text":"所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他"},{"start":30099.823,"end":30125.056,"text":"現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?"},{"start":30127.348,"end":30148.509,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的"},{"start":30149.649,"end":30166.836,"text":"以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候"},{"start":30167.196,"end":30190.644,"text":"是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆"},{"start":30191.479,"end":30193.58,"text":"今天就要求我們重做報告然後剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的"},{"start":30221.5,"end":30221.921,"text":"吳秉瑞委員不在"},{"start":30238.257,"end":30254.092,"text":"那我想今天的這個會議的巡打全部都已經結束那今天這次會議的討論是非常的有意義的因為透過一整天的討論不同的委員從不同的角度都給衛福部不同的建議那這個剛剛部長也承諾在一週後"},{"start":30257.891,"end":30264.577,"text":"會把更詳細、完整的整個衛福部針對從這次個案到整個系統的檢討會有一個非常完整的報告跟說明那我們希望這個衛福部在這個部分可以把這個所有的委員的意見還有好的這個未來的改革方向都納入那我們的目的只有一個就是讓我們的社會安全網可以更強韌讓我們用集體的力量"},{"start":30285.613,"end":30298.421,"text":"來防止下一個惡虐的悲劇再發生。今天委員吳春晨、顏寬恆、沈博洋、林德輔、陳冠廷、張雅玲、葉元芝、羅志強、"},{"start":30299.813,"end":30329.065,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定謝謝今天出席的官員還有關心的媒體朋友還有所有的議事人員我們今天開會時間比較長那是為了讓我們的孩子得到更好的保護本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":30335.38,"end":30335.621,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30357.505,"end":30357.945,"text":"主席"},{"start":30373.863,"end":30374.063,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30401.62,"end":30403.081,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15730","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e3e43fff42b9abd61dbed544b35c5f3ca3be8d109af184be44a5e1ebe9a8448215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-18","start_time":"2024-03-18T08:31:05+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:48:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15415,"委員發言時間":"08:31:05 - 12:48:00","影片長度":"04:16:55","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":225.98721875,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":228.65346875,"end":228.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":228.92346875,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1736.4347187500002,"end":1739.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1741.2103437500002,"end":1743.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1744.0284687500002,"end":1747.9603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1748.3315937500001,"end":1776.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1777.1878437500002,"end":1820.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1820.45534375,"end":1821.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1822.4803437500002,"end":1824.7415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1825.1297187500002,"end":1838.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1838.6972187500003,"end":1850.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1852.4165937500002,"end":1858.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1860.36471875,"end":1868.6503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1869.2072187500003,"end":1882.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1882.7240937500003,"end":1890.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1892.4103437500003,"end":1894.3509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1895.9878437500001,"end":1897.8609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1898.9409687500001,"end":1901.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1901.7759687500002,"end":1903.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1904.6615937500003,"end":1906.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1907.1928437500003,"end":1910.8040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1912.3903437500003,"end":1914.6347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1915.2084687500003,"end":1916.5584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1918.2965937500003,"end":1920.6759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1922.1440937500001,"end":1922.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1926.46409375,"end":1927.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1928.4047187500003,"end":1929.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1931.0878437500003,"end":1952.1478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1948.40159375,"end":1948.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1952.1815937500003,"end":1953.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1953.9197187500001,"end":1956.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1965.1753437500001,"end":1965.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1966.6434687500002,"end":1968.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1968.7697187500003,"end":1970.8959687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1971.60471875,"end":1972.1109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1972.1953437500001,"end":1973.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1973.8153437500002,"end":1977.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1977.7809687500003,"end":1981.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1982.7422187500001,"end":1984.2103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1984.5984687500002,"end":1988.0409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1988.63159375,"end":1989.6947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1989.9647187500002,"end":1992.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1993.2384687500003,"end":1995.7865937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1996.0397187500002,"end":1998.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1999.2290937500002,"end":2002.5197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2003.4140937500001,"end":2005.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2005.8778437500002,"end":2008.5103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2009.9447187500002,"end":2010.5522187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2011.27784375,"end":2014.2140937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2014.8553437500002,"end":2015.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2016.1209687500002,"end":2017.3022187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2017.9265937500002,"end":2021.8922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2022.1453437500002,"end":2024.6934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2025.3178437500003,"end":2026.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2027.8828437500001,"end":2029.0472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2029.3172187500002,"end":2034.1434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2034.5484687500002,"end":2036.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2037.0797187500002,"end":2038.3790937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2039.4759687500002,"end":2041.1972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2041.8215937500001,"end":2044.4034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2045.4834687500002,"end":2048.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2048.40284375,"end":2050.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2051.84534375,"end":2053.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2054.19096875,"end":2059.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2061.24471875,"end":2064.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2065.14284375,"end":2067.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2067.67409375,"end":2069.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2069.6484687500006,"end":2070.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2070.44159375,"end":2071.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2071.9265937500004,"end":2072.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2073.46221875,"end":2076.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2078.11971875,"end":2079.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2079.25034375,"end":2081.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2081.3428437500006,"end":2081.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2082.4228437500005,"end":2084.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2086.30409375,"end":2087.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2088.59909375,"end":2093.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2094.13409375,"end":2099.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2100.2597187500005,"end":2103.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2103.9890937500004,"end":2109.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2109.6590937500005,"end":2113.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2115.05909375,"end":2116.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2117.23596875,"end":2120.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2120.52659375,"end":2124.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2125.72409375,"end":2128.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2129.14971875,"end":2130.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2131.57971875,"end":2136.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2136.9459687500002,"end":2138.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2139.17346875,"end":2141.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2141.9072187500005,"end":2144.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2144.9784687500005,"end":2147.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2148.25221875,"end":2151.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2151.7790937500004,"end":2153.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2153.92221875,"end":2154.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2155.74471875,"end":2168.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2169.71721875,"end":2170.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2171.64096875,"end":2173.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2174.3747187500003,"end":2175.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2177.2772187500004,"end":2178.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2179.6228437500004,"end":2181.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2182.96409375,"end":2184.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2185.37721875,"end":2187.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2188.76909375,"end":2192.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2192.56596875,"end":2195.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2196.1940937500003,"end":2197.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2198.2528437500005,"end":2199.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2200.93596875,"end":2203.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2203.9734687500004,"end":2205.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2205.57659375,"end":2216.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2216.8659687500003,"end":2218.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2218.51971875,"end":2219.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2220.7978437500005,"end":2224.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2224.81409375,"end":2226.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2227.4297187500006,"end":2230.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2230.9734687500004,"end":2231.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2232.15471875,"end":2234.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2234.7872187500006,"end":2236.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2237.82471875,"end":2239.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2240.2040937500005,"end":2245.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2246.3465937500005,"end":2249.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2250.48096875,"end":2251.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2252.03346875,"end":2254.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2255.34096875,"end":2258.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2258.4122187500006,"end":2261.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2261.93909375,"end":2262.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2262.9684687500003,"end":2265.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2266.4615937500002,"end":2267.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2267.89596875,"end":2269.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2270.96721875,"end":2273.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2273.98784375,"end":2275.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2275.9959687500004,"end":2278.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2278.72971875,"end":2279.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2279.9615937500002,"end":2283.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2284.4334687500004,"end":2287.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2289.2597187500005,"end":2289.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2290.4072187500005,"end":2291.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2291.20034375,"end":2291.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2292.46596875,"end":2293.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2294.1872187500003,"end":2296.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2297.3428437500006,"end":2304.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2304.97034375,"end":2306.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2306.70846875,"end":2308.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2309.9147187500002,"end":2310.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2311.1803437500002,"end":2315.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2316.0065937500003,"end":2316.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2316.90096875,"end":2318.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2319.2634687500004,"end":2323.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2323.8028437500006,"end":2324.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2325.20346875,"end":2328.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2329.35471875,"end":2332.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2333.26971875,"end":2333.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2334.36659375,"end":2337.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2338.29846875,"end":2339.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2340.4247187500005,"end":2342.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2342.4834687500006,"end":2344.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2345.3015937500004,"end":2348.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2349.06471875,"end":2351.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2351.6297187500004,"end":2354.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2356.35471875,"end":2359.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2359.74659375,"end":2362.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2362.6659687500005,"end":2365.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2365.7878437500003,"end":2366.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2368.23471875,"end":2368.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2369.61846875,"end":2376.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2377.51596875,"end":2383.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2384.2997187500005,"end":2390.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2390.9822187500004,"end":2395.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2396.3653437500006,"end":2401.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2402.9297187500006,"end":2408.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2410.1522187500004,"end":2410.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2411.1309687500006,"end":2413.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2413.5778437500003,"end":2414.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2415.07971875,"end":2417.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2418.2353437500005,"end":2422.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2423.1797187500006,"end":2424.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2425.3397187500004,"end":2426.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2426.87534375,"end":2427.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2427.95534375,"end":2428.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2429.2715937500006,"end":2430.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2430.73971875,"end":2432.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2433.7772187500004,"end":2434.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2435.14409375,"end":2435.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2435.8190937500003,"end":2439.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2440.42596875,"end":2443.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2443.81784375,"end":2446.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2446.95659375,"end":2448.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2449.18409375,"end":2450.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2450.56784375,"end":2452.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2452.25534375,"end":2456.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2458.1784687500003,"end":2460.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2461.09784375,"end":2464.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2464.79346875,"end":2465.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2466.16034375,"end":2468.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2469.53534375,"end":2471.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2472.26909375,"end":2474.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2475.03659375,"end":2478.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2479.5928437500006,"end":2482.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2482.73159375,"end":2483.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2483.54159375,"end":2488.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2489.07659375,"end":2491.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2491.4559687500005,"end":2492.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2494.2234687500004,"end":2494.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2495.94471875,"end":2496.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2497.34534375,"end":2498.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2499.31971875,"end":2500.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2501.29409375,"end":2503.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2504.24721875,"end":2505.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2506.5253437500005,"end":2509.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2510.0184687500005,"end":2512.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2512.68471875,"end":2514.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2514.9459687500002,"end":2518.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2519.33346875,"end":2524.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2525.71221875,"end":2529.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2529.8972187500003,"end":2533.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2533.96409375,"end":2535.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2535.8034687500003,"end":2537.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2537.3053437500002,"end":2541.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2542.41846875,"end":2543.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2543.98784375,"end":2545.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2545.5065937500003,"end":2548.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2548.54409375,"end":2550.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2551.6490937500002,"end":2552.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2552.4928437500002,"end":2553.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2554.0790937500005,"end":2554.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2555.7497187500003,"end":2557.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2558.6522187500004,"end":2561.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2561.8584687500006,"end":2563.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2563.19159375,"end":2564.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2564.6765937500004,"end":2569.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2571.39284375,"end":2574.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2575.12221875,"end":2576.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2577.4678437500006,"end":2579.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2579.84721875,"end":2582.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2582.68221875,"end":2585.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2585.3484687500004,"end":2588.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2589.0272187500004,"end":2590.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2591.2715937500006,"end":2593.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2594.42721875,"end":2596.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2596.8065937500005,"end":2598.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2598.62909375,"end":2600.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2602.25721875,"end":2606.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2606.71221875,"end":2609.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2609.7665937500005,"end":2611.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2612.66909375,"end":2615.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2616.7022187500006,"end":2617.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2618.59221875,"end":2622.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2622.67596875,"end":2625.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2627.5359687500004,"end":2628.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2628.7340937500003,"end":2633.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2634.57284375,"end":2635.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2635.9059687500003,"end":2642.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2643.48284375,"end":2644.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2645.11971875,"end":2648.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2650.18221875,"end":2657.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2659.2947187500004,"end":2665.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2667.0065937500003,"end":2668.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2668.4747187500006,"end":2671.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2671.9678437500006,"end":2672.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2673.7734687500006,"end":2675.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2676.03471875,"end":2677.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2678.0934687500003,"end":2679.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2681.26596875,"end":2682.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2682.76784375,"end":2683.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2684.3709687500004,"end":2687.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2687.72909375,"end":2689.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2689.77096875,"end":2693.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2693.73659375,"end":2695.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2695.4578437500004,"end":2698.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2699.1534687500007,"end":2704.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2705.2959687500006,"end":2709.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2710.8309687500005,"end":2712.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2712.3497187500006,"end":2718.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2718.22221875,"end":2720.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2721.46221875,"end":2726.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2727.8747187500003,"end":2729.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2730.33846875,"end":2732.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2732.80221875,"end":2740.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2740.4128437500003,"end":2743.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2743.9059687500003,"end":2747.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2748.0909687500007,"end":2753.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2754.18284375,"end":2759.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2759.86971875,"end":2761.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2762.09721875,"end":2764.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2765.28659375,"end":2768.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2768.4422187500004,"end":2770.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2770.8553437500004,"end":2772.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2772.82971875,"end":2775.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2775.9178437500004,"end":2778.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2778.6347187500005,"end":2779.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2779.8328437500004,"end":2781.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2782.33034375,"end":2785.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2785.48596875,"end":2787.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2787.7472187500007,"end":2790.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2790.6834687500004,"end":2790.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2791.61159375,"end":2800.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2801.3990937500002,"end":2806.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2807.96346875,"end":2810.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2818.2234687500004,"end":2824.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2824.2647187500006,"end":2827.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2828.1797187500006,"end":2830.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2830.62659375,"end":2833.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2833.69784375,"end":2836.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2837.1572187500005,"end":2837.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2838.0684687500006,"end":2841.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2841.6628437500003,"end":2844.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2845.08846875,"end":2848.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2849.0878437500005,"end":2852.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2852.59784375,"end":2860.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2860.91721875,"end":2862.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2863.53284375,"end":2864.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2864.29221875,"end":2867.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2867.73471875,"end":2872.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2875.0753437500007,"end":2875.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2875.7334687500006,"end":2877.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2877.85971875,"end":2880.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2880.93096875,"end":2883.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2883.9853437500005,"end":2886.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2886.71909375,"end":2889.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2890.4822187500004,"end":2892.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2892.2372187500005,"end":2899.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2900.4215937500003,"end":2905.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2906.2097187500003,"end":2911.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2911.72784375,"end":2912.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2912.6559687500003,"end":2915.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2915.76096875,"end":2917.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2917.46534375,"end":2918.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2918.9503437500007,"end":2920.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2921.4815937500007,"end":2928.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2929.81784375,"end":2930.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2931.38721875,"end":2932.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2932.7372187500005,"end":2935.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2937.5128437500007,"end":2939.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2939.82471875,"end":2942.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2943.13221875,"end":2961.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2961.9815937500007,"end":2966.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2966.3690937500005,"end":2970.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2970.7059687500005,"end":2976.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2977.3209687500002,"end":2979.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2979.7340937500003,"end":2987.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2988.81284375,"end":2989.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2990.26409375,"end":2994.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2994.3309687500005,"end":3000.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3001.0809687500005,"end":3001.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3001.9753437500003,"end":3006.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3007.1559687500003,"end":3007.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3008.0840937500006,"end":3009.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3010.27784375,"end":3014.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3014.26034375,"end":3025.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3025.7184687500003,"end":3026.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3027.01784375,"end":3028.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3029.56596875,"end":3033.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3033.59909375,"end":3035.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3035.7422187500006,"end":3037.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3038.23971875,"end":3043.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3043.90971875,"end":3046.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3047.4872187500005,"end":3055.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3056.80221875,"end":3069.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3069.94784375,"end":3071.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3071.61846875,"end":3073.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3075.2128437500005,"end":3076.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3077.3053437500002,"end":3080.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3081.01784375,"end":3084.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3084.9665937500004,"end":3086.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3086.62034375,"end":3090.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3090.73784375,"end":3092.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3092.5772187500006,"end":3095.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3095.7159687500007,"end":3102.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3102.7022187500006,"end":3105.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3105.79034375,"end":3110.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3110.97096875,"end":3114.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3114.71721875,"end":3117.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3117.8728437500004,"end":3119.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3120.08346875,"end":3122.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3122.6315937500003,"end":3125.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3125.56784375,"end":3138.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3138.5447187500004,"end":3138.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3138.59534375,"end":3138.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3138.62909375,"end":3161.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3168.90284375,"end":3170.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3170.8603437500005,"end":3171.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3172.76721875,"end":3175.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3176.59784375,"end":3180.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3180.2090937500006,"end":3181.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3184.6134687500007,"end":3185.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3187.2965937500003,"end":3189.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3189.3047187500006,"end":3192.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3193.4053437500006,"end":3197.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3197.7422187500006,"end":3202.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3202.8553437500004,"end":3204.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3204.5597187500007,"end":3208.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3210.2128437500005,"end":3212.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3212.82846875,"end":3214.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3214.9715937500005,"end":3217.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3217.89096875,"end":3225.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3225.9572187500007,"end":3227.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3228.15096875,"end":3230.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3231.34034375,"end":3243.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3243.97971875,"end":3247.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3247.6247187500003,"end":3250.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3250.39221875,"end":3250.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3251.2022187500006,"end":3251.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3251.75909375,"end":3251.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3251.9784687500005,"end":3252.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3253.2272187500002,"end":3257.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3259.53846875,"end":3261.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3261.0065937500003,"end":3261.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3261.83346875,"end":3261.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3262.5253437500005,"end":3263.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3263.58846875,"end":3264.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3264.6178437500002,"end":3266.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3268.53284375,"end":3272.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3272.4815937500007,"end":3272.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3272.49846875,"end":3285.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3285.9140937500006,"end":3288.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3290.03159375,"end":3301.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3302.38409375,"end":3303.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3304.20659375,"end":3306.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3307.6490937500002,"end":3310.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3310.46721875,"end":3312.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3313.3359687500006,"end":3321.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3323.1403437500003,"end":3324.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3324.4059687500003,"end":3333.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3333.2147187500004,"end":3337.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3339.81284375,"end":3349.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3349.9209687500006,"end":3355.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3356.3672187500006,"end":3360.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3360.8728437500004,"end":3363.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3363.8428437500006,"end":3364.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3365.24346875,"end":3366.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3366.39096875,"end":3367.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3367.60596875,"end":3380.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3381.34221875,"end":3382.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3382.96221875,"end":3384.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3385.4259687500007,"end":3393.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3393.2897187500002,"end":3402.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3402.8240937500004,"end":3405.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3406.23284375,"end":3407.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3408.2409687500003,"end":3414.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3414.97409375,"end":3419.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3419.19284375,"end":3425.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3425.6559687500003,"end":3427.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3427.7315937500007,"end":3434.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3435.4772187500002,"end":3435.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3435.9665937500004,"end":3438.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3439.18971875,"end":3442.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3443.0372187500006,"end":3445.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3446.37846875,"end":3452.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3452.4365937500006,"end":3453.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3453.5840937500006,"end":3457.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3457.5665937500007,"end":3458.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.35971875,"end":3458.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3458.54534375,"end":3458.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.6465937500006,"end":3461.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3459.45659375,"end":3460.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3461.3465937500005,"end":3462.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3462.69659375,"end":3466.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3466.56096875,"end":3469.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3469.14284375,"end":3469.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3470.3409687500007,"end":3473.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3475.11659375,"end":3480.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3477.9853437500005,"end":3479.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3479.9765937500006,"end":3480.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3480.8878437500007,"end":3492.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3493.07159375,"end":3496.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3497.71221875,"end":3498.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3498.97784375,"end":3498.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3499.4840937500003,"end":3499.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3499.9734687500004,"end":3512.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3512.6297187500004,"end":3519.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3519.6328437500006,"end":3525.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3526.6865937500006,"end":3539.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3540.5409687500005,"end":3540.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3540.9628437500005,"end":3548.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3548.9278437500006,"end":3552.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3552.4715937500005,"end":3557.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3556.4540937500005,"end":3557.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3557.44971875,"end":3557.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3557.4834687500006,"end":3557.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3557.50034375,"end":3557.5509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3557.56784375,"end":3557.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3558.3103437500004,"end":3561.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3558.36096875,"end":3558.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3561.65159375,"end":3567.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3567.45659375,"end":3578.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3578.23971875,"end":3581.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3582.1715937500003,"end":3584.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3584.51721875,"end":3586.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3588.01034375,"end":3593.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3593.8322187500007,"end":3594.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3594.76034375,"end":3602.2697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3602.7253437500003,"end":3605.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3605.59409375,"end":3610.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3611.5847187500003,"end":3613.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3613.7109687500006,"end":3619.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3619.70159375,"end":3634.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3635.4122187500006,"end":3655.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3656.15159375,"end":3657.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3657.97409375,"end":3663.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3664.0997187500006,"end":3669.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3669.36471875,"end":3671.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3672.60471875,"end":3677.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3677.9034687500007,"end":3685.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3686.89784375,"end":3686.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3686.9147187500002,"end":3695.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3695.70659375,"end":3703.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3703.3340937500006,"end":3713.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3709.08846875,"end":3709.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3714.08346875,"end":3721.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3721.7109687500006,"end":3728.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3728.79846875,"end":3750.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3750.6178437500002,"end":3752.4572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3752.84534375,"end":3756.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3757.0134687500004,"end":3759.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3760.55721875,"end":3765.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3766.02471875,"end":3806.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3806.4403437500005,"end":3806.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3806.47409375,"end":3813.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3813.6797187500006,"end":3826.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3823.51784375,"end":3824.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3825.0028437500005,"end":3826.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3826.35284375,"end":3826.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3826.4540937500005,"end":3826.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3826.5722187500005,"end":3826.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3826.65659375,"end":3826.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3828.05721875,"end":3833.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3833.96346875,"end":3873.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3873.8390937500008,"end":3873.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3873.9403437500005,"end":3874.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3874.2947187500004,"end":3875.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3875.0372187500006,"end":3876.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3876.3534687500005,"end":3876.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3876.69096875,"end":3880.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3892.53659375,"end":3894.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3894.5109687500008,"end":3894.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3894.5615937500006,"end":3894.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3894.9834687500006,"end":3895.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3902.35784375,"end":3902.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3902.3747187500003,"end":3903.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3903.03284375,"end":3903.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3903.1003437500003,"end":3903.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3903.1172187500006,"end":3903.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3903.50534375,"end":3904.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3904.72034375,"end":3905.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3906.0028437500005,"end":3906.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3907.42034375,"end":3911.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3914.0184687500005,"end":3917.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3917.96721875,"end":3931.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3931.77096875,"end":3939.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3939.9384687500005,"end":3943.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3943.76909375,"end":3951.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3945.9459687500002,"end":3946.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3952.4090937500005,"end":3952.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3953.2528437500005,"end":3954.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3954.97409375,"end":3959.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3959.6990937500004,"end":3961.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3962.1122187500005,"end":3964.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3965.3690937500005,"end":3966.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3966.0272187500004,"end":3966.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3966.1453437500004,"end":3966.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3966.43221875,"end":3967.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3968.35596875,"end":3979.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3972.4734687500004,"end":3973.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3979.9659687500007,"end":3991.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3984.8259687500004,"end":3985.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3992.2509687500005,"end":4000.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4000.5534687500003,"end":4001.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4001.8190937500003,"end":4003.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4004.26596875,"end":4017.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4017.3947187500007,"end":4018.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4020.11159375,"end":4021.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4021.4784687500005,"end":4025.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4025.6465937500006,"end":4026.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4026.9797187500008,"end":4031.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4031.80596875,"end":4032.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4032.95346875,"end":4034.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4035.85596875,"end":4036.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4037.1553437500006,"end":4038.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4039.4840937500003,"end":4041.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4043.21346875,"end":4048.9172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4049.54159375,"end":4055.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4056.1228437500004,"end":4084.3547187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4085.1309687500006,"end":4090.6828437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4090.93596875,"end":4096.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4096.99409375,"end":4102.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4102.950968749999,"end":4103.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4103.96346875,"end":4104.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4104.874718749999,"end":4105.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4105.060343749999,"end":4105.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4105.43159375,"end":4105.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4105.448468750001,"end":4108.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4109.73471875,"end":4122.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4123.302218750001,"end":4129.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4129.950968749999,"end":4137.831593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4138.05096875,"end":4138.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4138.675343749999,"end":4140.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4140.1434687500005,"end":4147.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4147.61909375,"end":4148.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4149.07034375,"end":4157.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4157.710343750001,"end":4160.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4160.663468750001,"end":4161.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4161.827843749999,"end":4162.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4162.65471875,"end":4163.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4164.20721875,"end":4165.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4166.13096875,"end":4167.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4167.71721875,"end":4178.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4178.618468750001,"end":4202.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4202.59784375,"end":4202.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4202.6990937499995,"end":4208.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4208.807843750001,"end":4220.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4221.02534375,"end":4223.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4223.13471875,"end":4227.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4228.8553437499995,"end":4233.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4233.732218749999,"end":4235.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4235.622218750001,"end":4236.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4236.364718750001,"end":4240.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4236.66846875,"end":4237.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4241.292218750001,"end":4244.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4244.39721875,"end":4244.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4244.565968749999,"end":4244.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4244.97096875,"end":4264.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4264.529093749999,"end":4264.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4264.917218750001,"end":4264.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4264.93409375,"end":4265.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4265.03534375,"end":4266.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4265.91284375,"end":4265.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4265.946593750001,"end":4267.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4268.292218750001,"end":4287.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4287.39471875,"end":4287.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4288.00221875,"end":4288.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4288.069718750001,"end":4291.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4291.74846875,"end":4291.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4291.866593750001,"end":4291.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4292.06909375,"end":4296.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4297.75596875,"end":4297.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4297.78971875,"end":4304.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4304.6747187500005,"end":4309.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4310.36159375,"end":4310.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4311.30659375,"end":4312.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4312.79159375,"end":4315.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4315.8290937500005,"end":4323.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4323.96284375,"end":4326.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4326.561593750001,"end":4336.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4336.7372187500005,"end":4340.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4340.82096875,"end":4342.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4342.66034375,"end":4343.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4343.92596875,"end":4345.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4346.27159375,"end":4348.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4348.769093749999,"end":4351.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4351.51971875,"end":4351.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4352.329718749999,"end":4356.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4357.13909375,"end":4361.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4362.28596875,"end":4366.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4367.044718749999,"end":4372.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4372.2928437499995,"end":4372.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4372.37721875,"end":4372.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4372.42784375,"end":4381.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4382.147843750001,"end":4389.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4389.20159375,"end":4389.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4389.48846875,"end":4397.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4390.028468750001,"end":4391.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4397.55471875,"end":4399.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4400.25471875,"end":4401.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4401.182843750001,"end":4415.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4415.610968749999,"end":4415.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4415.6278437500005,"end":4415.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4415.64471875,"end":4415.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4415.712218750001,"end":4416.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4416.977843750001,"end":4418.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4419.91409375,"end":4420.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4420.859093749999,"end":4423.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4423.94721875,"end":4425.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4425.66846875,"end":4427.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4427.389718750001,"end":4429.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4430.07284375,"end":4434.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4434.62909375,"end":4437.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4437.784718749999,"end":4439.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4440.2822187500005,"end":4441.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.395968750001,"end":4442.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.847218749999,"end":4443.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4444.0790937500005,"end":4445.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4446.036593750001,"end":4446.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4447.217843750001,"end":4459.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4460.144093749999,"end":4460.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4461.44346875,"end":4465.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4465.5272187499995,"end":4466.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4466.8603437500005,"end":4466.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4467.450968749999,"end":4467.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4467.95721875,"end":4474.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4474.200968749999,"end":4474.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4475.669093750001,"end":4479.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4480.579718749999,"end":4482.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4483.43159375,"end":4483.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4484.03909375,"end":4488.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4489.27034375,"end":4491.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4491.61596875,"end":4493.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4494.045968750001,"end":4496.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4497.52221875,"end":4498.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4498.70346875,"end":4500.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4500.86346875,"end":4501.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4502.36534375,"end":4504.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4504.60971875,"end":4509.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4508.895968750001,"end":4510.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4510.27971875,"end":4517.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4516.65846875,"end":4521.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4528.65659375,"end":4531.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4531.66034375,"end":4532.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4536.62159375,"end":4537.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4537.27971875,"end":4537.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4537.9715937500005,"end":4571.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4571.55284375,"end":4580.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4581.829718749999,"end":4586.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4586.9090937500005,"end":4586.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4587.19596875,"end":4588.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4588.394093749999,"end":4590.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4591.448468750001,"end":4593.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4594.064093749999,"end":4594.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4595.78534375,"end":4598.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4600.341593749999,"end":4602.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4603.04159375,"end":4607.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4608.036593750001,"end":4610.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4610.9559687500005,"end":4615.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4614.66846875,"end":4618.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4618.51596875,"end":4624.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4624.962218750001,"end":4629.737843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4629.2822187500005,"end":4630.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4630.83471875,"end":4632.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4631.69534375,"end":4632.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4632.083468750001,"end":4632.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4632.25221875,"end":4634.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4634.46284375,"end":4637.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4636.52159375,"end":4640.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4641.95534375,"end":4645.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4645.077218750001,"end":4646.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4646.91659375,"end":4654.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4654.864718750001,"end":4654.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4654.965968750001,"end":4668.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4668.972218749999,"end":4698.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4698.840968750001,"end":4720.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4721.21721875,"end":4742.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4743.05346875,"end":4751.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4751.8622187500005,"end":4752.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4752.80721875,"end":4754.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4755.52409375,"end":4756.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4756.84034375,"end":4759.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4759.405343750001,"end":4763.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4763.624093750001,"end":4768.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4768.70346875,"end":4780.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4780.75221875,"end":4782.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4783.2665937500005,"end":4783.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4783.78971875,"end":4785.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4786.28721875,"end":4788.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4788.497843749999,"end":4791.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4792.41284375,"end":4801.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4795.56846875,"end":4795.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4795.60221875,"end":4795.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4795.93971875,"end":4795.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4800.5634687500005,"end":4841.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4804.56284375,"end":4804.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4841.620343750001,"end":4844.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4844.96159375,"end":4846.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4847.104718750001,"end":4849.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4849.65284375,"end":4858.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4858.7822187500005,"end":4860.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4861.212218750001,"end":4864.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4864.772843750001,"end":4866.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4866.7303437499995,"end":4868.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4868.890343749999,"end":4870.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4871.6747187500005,"end":4881.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4871.72534375,"end":4871.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4871.74221875,"end":4872.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4881.5634687500005,"end":4881.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4882.18784375,"end":4889.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4890.76034375,"end":4890.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4890.96284375,"end":4891.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4891.722218750001,"end":4891.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4891.75596875,"end":4962.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4962.61409375,"end":4963.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4963.03596875,"end":4963.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4963.69409375,"end":4963.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4964.35221875,"end":4964.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4965.53346875,"end":4971.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4972.300343750001,"end":4984.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4983.77534375,"end":5057.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4984.450343750001,"end":4984.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4988.145968750001,"end":4989.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4990.862843750001,"end":4991.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5057.890343749999,"end":5068.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5065.99034375,"end":5066.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5068.825343750001,"end":5069.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5070.225968750001,"end":5112.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5114.03346875,"end":5118.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5119.78784375,"end":5120.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5120.749718749999,"end":5121.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5121.8465937500005,"end":5127.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5126.4872187500005,"end":5136.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5136.966593749999,"end":5149.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5150.92221875,"end":5178.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5179.305968750001,"end":5182.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5182.022843750001,"end":5183.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5183.1365937499995,"end":5189.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5183.153468750001,"end":5184.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5189.83596875,"end":5195.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5194.37534375,"end":5195.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5195.421593749999,"end":5201.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5202.62721875,"end":5206.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5206.626593749999,"end":5206.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5206.6434687500005,"end":5206.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5206.677218750001,"end":5206.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5206.964093750001,"end":5219.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5218.4559687500005,"end":5218.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5219.02971875,"end":5219.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5219.11409375,"end":5219.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5219.282843749999,"end":5221.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5221.00409375,"end":5225.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5238.48659375,"end":5240.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5241.186593750001,"end":5243.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5243.4647187499995,"end":5244.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5247.21096875,"end":5248.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5249.0165937500005,"end":5250.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5251.32846875,"end":5251.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5252.45909375,"end":5255.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5256.171593749999,"end":5258.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5259.61409375,"end":5260.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5261.706593750001,"end":5262.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5262.702218750001,"end":5263.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5263.545968750001,"end":5264.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5265.43596875,"end":5266.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5266.634093750001,"end":5267.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5268.6590937500005,"end":5271.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5271.89909375,"end":5273.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5274.278468750001,"end":5275.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5276.2528437500005,"end":5278.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5278.733468750001,"end":5279.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5279.45909375,"end":5281.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5282.44596875,"end":5283.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5283.81284375,"end":5285.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5285.382218750001,"end":5286.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5288.284718750001,"end":5289.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5289.786593750001,"end":5291.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5291.4403437500005,"end":5294.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5295.321593750001,"end":5297.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5298.39284375,"end":5299.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5299.810343749999,"end":5302.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5302.71284375,"end":5303.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5304.56909375,"end":5306.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5307.01596875,"end":5309.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5309.64846875,"end":5312.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5313.512843750001,"end":5314.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5315.03159375,"end":5317.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5318.609093749999,"end":5321.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5321.59596875,"end":5323.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5323.637843750001,"end":5326.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5327.08034375,"end":5327.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5328.63284375,"end":5328.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5329.442843750001,"end":5330.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5332.59846875,"end":5334.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5334.825968749999,"end":5340.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5340.040343750001,"end":5341.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5342.40284375,"end":5344.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5344.90034375,"end":5345.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5346.14909375,"end":5347.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5347.93784375,"end":5350.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5350.23284375,"end":5351.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5352.24096875,"end":5353.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5355.6834687499995,"end":5357.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5357.472218750001,"end":5358.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5358.56909375,"end":5370.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5368.170968750001,"end":5370.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5371.765343749999,"end":5373.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5374.36409375,"end":5376.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5377.14846875,"end":5379.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5380.675343750001,"end":5381.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5381.55284375,"end":5381.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5381.805968750001,"end":5381.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5381.82284375,"end":5382.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5382.02534375,"end":5382.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5382.53159375,"end":5383.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5384.202218750001,"end":5384.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5386.345343749999,"end":5398.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5399.08596875,"end":5402.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5402.764718750001,"end":5406.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5407.08471875,"end":5407.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5408.58659375,"end":5410.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5411.3709687499995,"end":5436.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5421.782843749999,"end":5423.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5423.706593750001,"end":5424.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5427.638468749999,"end":5429.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5431.030343750001,"end":5438.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5436.734093749999,"end":5437.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5439.77159375,"end":5441.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5441.07096875,"end":5443.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5443.23096875,"end":5445.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5445.72846875,"end":5448.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5448.68159375,"end":5450.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5451.229718750001,"end":5453.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5454.975968750001,"end":5456.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5456.5115937499995,"end":5457.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5458.13159375,"end":5459.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5459.667218750001,"end":5461.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5461.65846875,"end":5469.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5470.04534375,"end":5473.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5473.60596875,"end":5477.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5477.655968749999,"end":5478.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5478.98909375,"end":5480.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5480.87909375,"end":5481.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5481.75659375,"end":5485.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5485.772843750001,"end":5507.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5496.0497187500005,"end":5496.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5500.167218750001,"end":5500.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5502.29346875,"end":5502.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5507.845343749999,"end":5508.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5508.48659375,"end":5508.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5508.503468750001,"end":5508.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5508.57096875,"end":5508.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5508.925343750001,"end":5508.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5508.94221875,"end":5508.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5508.975968750001,"end":5509.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5509.026593750001,"end":5509.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5509.65096875,"end":5510.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5511.06846875,"end":5512.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5512.57034375,"end":5515.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5515.75971875,"end":5517.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5518.1053437499995,"end":5520.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5521.5478437500005,"end":5523.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5524.821593750001,"end":5527.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5527.4540937500005,"end":5531.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5532.044093750001,"end":5535.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5535.95909375,"end":5536.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5536.954718749999,"end":5537.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5538.878468750001,"end":5539.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5539.907843749999,"end":5541.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5541.84846875,"end":5542.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5542.89471875,"end":5543.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5544.71721875,"end":5545.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5545.392218749999,"end":5546.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5547.34971875,"end":5548.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5551.09596875,"end":5552.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5552.83409375,"end":5556.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5554.673468749999,"end":5554.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5556.95159375,"end":5559.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5558.6053437499995,"end":5561.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5561.96346875,"end":5562.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5562.233468750001,"end":5562.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5562.925343750001,"end":5565.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5566.41846875,"end":5569.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5569.725968750001,"end":5572.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5572.999718749999,"end":5574.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5574.501593749999,"end":5576.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5577.640343749999,"end":5579.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5580.52596875,"end":5583.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5583.47909375,"end":5584.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5585.0653437500005,"end":5586.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5586.651593750001,"end":5588.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5590.161593750001,"end":5591.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5591.764718750001,"end":5592.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5592.86159375,"end":5594.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5594.987843750001,"end":5597.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5597.569718750001,"end":5600.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5597.991593750001,"end":5598.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5598.85221875,"end":5598.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5599.864718750001,"end":5600.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5600.69159375,"end":5613.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5612.72346875,"end":5613.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5613.29721875,"end":5614.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5613.61784375,"end":5614.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5614.579718749999,"end":5617.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5616.233468750001,"end":5623.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5617.634093750001,"end":5617.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5623.74284375,"end":5624.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5625.497843749999,"end":5630.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5629.446593750001,"end":5633.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5631.48846875,"end":5634.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5633.22659375,"end":5633.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5634.91409375,"end":5634.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5634.930968750001,"end":5635.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5635.94346875,"end":5637.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5638.069718750001,"end":5640.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5640.53346875,"end":5642.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5642.27159375,"end":5642.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5642.575343750001,"end":5643.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5643.419093750001,"end":5646.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5645.64659375,"end":5650.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5650.388468749999,"end":5651.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5651.940968750001,"end":5652.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5653.122218750001,"end":5654.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5654.185343749999,"end":5654.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5655.923468749999,"end":5656.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5657.25659375,"end":5658.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5658.75846875,"end":5659.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5660.6990937499995,"end":5663.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5663.68596875,"end":5666.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5666.77409375,"end":5669.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5669.54159375,"end":5669.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5670.94221875,"end":5671.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5672.07284375,"end":5673.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5673.47346875,"end":5674.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5674.31721875,"end":5680.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5680.729718750001,"end":5682.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5682.33284375,"end":5684.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5684.59409375,"end":5685.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5685.80909375,"end":5687.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5687.39534375,"end":5689.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5689.94346875,"end":5690.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5690.483468750001,"end":5691.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5691.732218749999,"end":5693.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5694.280343750001,"end":5694.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5695.14096875,"end":5697.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5698.212218750001,"end":5701.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5701.722218750001,"end":5705.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5706.34596875,"end":5709.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5709.48471875,"end":5713.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5713.720343749999,"end":5719.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5719.626593749999,"end":5723.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5724.638468749999,"end":5730.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5731.1522187499995,"end":5732.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5733.3290937500005,"end":5735.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5735.64096875,"end":5738.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5738.239718750001,"end":5743.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5744.196593750001,"end":5745.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5747.97659375,"end":5750.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5751.43596875,"end":5753.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5753.714093750001,"end":5756.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5757.49409375,"end":5760.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5761.071593750001,"end":5762.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5763.11346875,"end":5764.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5765.27346875,"end":5768.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5769.137843750001,"end":5770.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5771.16284375,"end":5771.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5772.58034375,"end":5775.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5775.8709687499995,"end":5777.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5778.94221875,"end":5785.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5785.439093749999,"end":5785.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5786.0634687500005,"end":5787.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5787.5653437500005,"end":5789.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5788.729718750001,"end":5791.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5790.2822187500005,"end":5790.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5794.3153437500005,"end":5802.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5802.364718750001,"end":5806.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5807.41034375,"end":5808.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5808.186593750001,"end":5808.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5808.47346875,"end":5818.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5819.08784375,"end":5827.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5828.58846875,"end":5830.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5831.372843749999,"end":5833.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5834.663468750001,"end":5836.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5837.1103437500005,"end":5838.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5838.89909375,"end":5839.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5840.18159375,"end":5840.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5841.00846875,"end":5841.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5842.915343750001,"end":5843.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5843.995343750001,"end":5844.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5845.24409375,"end":5845.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5846.17221875,"end":5847.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5847.99471875,"end":5850.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5851.08284375,"end":5855.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5855.31846875,"end":5856.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5856.921593749999,"end":5857.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5858.35596875,"end":5860.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5861.78159375,"end":5863.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5865.81471875,"end":5866.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5866.8778437500005,"end":5875.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5875.75409375,"end":5878.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5879.095343750001,"end":5880.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5881.204718750001,"end":5883.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5884.394093750001,"end":5886.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5887.161593750001,"end":5888.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5888.62971875,"end":5889.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5890.249718749999,"end":5890.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5890.70534375,"end":5890.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5890.958468750001,"end":5891.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5891.31284375,"end":5895.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5896.47659375,"end":5898.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5898.467843750001,"end":5899.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5899.3622187500005,"end":5899.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5899.395968750001,"end":5901.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5902.4334687499995,"end":5911.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5912.2040937500005,"end":5920.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5920.540343750001,"end":5925.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5927.22284375,"end":5930.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5930.73284375,"end":5933.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5933.44971875,"end":5935.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5938.495343750001,"end":5939.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5940.48659375,"end":5941.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5941.634093750001,"end":5945.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5944.94159375,"end":5945.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5946.15659375,"end":5946.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5946.44346875,"end":5946.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5946.57846875,"end":5946.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5947.50659375,"end":5949.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5950.155968749999,"end":5950.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5951.7928437499995,"end":5953.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5955.2353437500005,"end":5955.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5955.977843750001,"end":5959.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5960.145968750001,"end":5960.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5961.327218750001,"end":5961.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5962.47471875,"end":5963.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5965.41096875,"end":5966.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5967.06471875,"end":5967.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5971.114718750001,"end":5972.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5977.37534375,"end":5978.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5979.366593750001,"end":5981.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5982.06659375,"end":5982.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5982.15096875,"end":5988.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5982.454718750001,"end":5983.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5985.036593750001,"end":5985.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5988.9853437500005,"end":5991.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5992.1747187500005,"end":5992.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5993.06909375,"end":5994.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5995.85346875,"end":5996.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5996.950343750001,"end":5997.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5998.09784375,"end":5999.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5999.36346875,"end":6005.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6005.708468750001,"end":6005.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6005.7928437499995,"end":6006.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6006.16409375,"end":6006.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6006.24846875,"end":6006.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6006.315968750001,"end":6006.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6006.43409375,"end":6006.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6006.6365937499995,"end":6007.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6007.09221875,"end":6007.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6007.69971875,"end":6007.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6007.9697187500005,"end":6008.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6008.45909375,"end":6008.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6008.475968750001,"end":6009.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6011.007218750001,"end":6012.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6012.01971875,"end":6014.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6013.8084687499995,"end":6017.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6016.305968750001,"end":6018.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6017.892218750001,"end":6018.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6018.85409375,"end":6018.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6020.50784375,"end":6021.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6022.04346875,"end":6028.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6022.110968750001,"end":6024.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6027.882218750001,"end":6036.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6034.66596875,"end":6036.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6036.52221875,"end":6036.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6037.09596875,"end":6039.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6037.12971875,"end":6037.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6040.09971875,"end":6041.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6041.82096875,"end":6042.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6043.305968750001,"end":6043.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6043.964093750001,"end":6044.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6044.048468750001,"end":6044.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6044.1834687499995,"end":6044.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6044.622218750001,"end":6044.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6044.63909375,"end":6044.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6044.72346875,"end":6044.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6044.97659375,"end":6045.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6046.208468750001,"end":6059.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6046.3603437500005,"end":6047.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6051.220343750001,"end":6052.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6060.2147187499995,"end":6062.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6063.4715937500005,"end":6063.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6069.39471875,"end":6069.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6069.411593750001,"end":6070.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6070.89659375,"end":6072.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6076.27971875,"end":6080.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6080.903468750001,"end":6083.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6083.87346875,"end":6084.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6090.11721875,"end":6090.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6091.112843750001,"end":6091.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6091.214093750001,"end":6091.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6091.450343750001,"end":6092.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6092.057843750001,"end":6092.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6092.49659375,"end":6116.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6116.40846875,"end":6119.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6119.88471875,"end":6175.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6176.280968749999,"end":6178.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6178.812218749999,"end":6183.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6184.5497187500005,"end":6184.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6186.11909375,"end":6190.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6190.65846875,"end":6191.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6192.21096875,"end":6196.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6195.417218750001,"end":6211.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6211.6678437499995,"end":6211.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6211.98846875,"end":6212.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6213.94596875,"end":6220.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6222.33284375,"end":6225.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6224.88096875,"end":6237.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6237.19971875,"end":6244.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6244.69221875,"end":6260.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6260.993468750001,"end":6275.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6275.72534375,"end":6288.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6288.63471875,"end":6305.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6306.10034375,"end":6310.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6311.517218750001,"end":6325.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6325.42221875,"end":6328.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6328.763468749999,"end":6332.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6332.77971875,"end":6347.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6346.61721875,"end":6361.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6361.585343750001,"end":6363.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6363.9647187499995,"end":6374.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6374.427218750001,"end":6374.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6374.562218749999,"end":6378.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6374.59596875,"end":6374.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6378.67971875,"end":6381.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6381.177218750001,"end":6406.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6406.79346875,"end":6410.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6411.552218750001,"end":6422.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6422.858468750001,"end":6441.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6442.872218750001,"end":6454.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6452.659718750001,"end":6472.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6472.15034375,"end":6477.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6477.76971875,"end":6484.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6485.4647187499995,"end":6486.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6487.1522187499995,"end":6489.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6489.86909375,"end":6500.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6501.462218750001,"end":6509.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6509.91659375,"end":6510.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6510.72659375,"end":6514.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6514.169093750001,"end":6533.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6533.9803437499995,"end":6549.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6550.214093750001,"end":6570.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6570.7509687500005,"end":6582.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6582.81659375,"end":6591.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6591.8447187500005,"end":6596.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6595.067843750001,"end":6598.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6598.679093750001,"end":6602.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6600.839093750001,"end":6604.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6604.028468750001,"end":6604.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6604.669718749999,"end":6619.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6621.544718749999,"end":6629.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6630.454718750001,"end":6640.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6639.0947187500005,"end":6639.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6640.309718750001,"end":6652.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6652.89846875,"end":6653.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6653.337218750001,"end":6664.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6659.78346875,"end":6660.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6663.462218750001,"end":6676.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6664.862843750001,"end":6665.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6677.2997187500005,"end":6684.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6684.741593750001,"end":6685.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6685.65284375,"end":6689.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6690.360968750001,"end":6697.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6697.870343750001,"end":6702.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6699.11909375,"end":6699.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6702.595343750001,"end":6704.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6704.58659375,"end":6705.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6706.03784375,"end":6709.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6710.104718750001,"end":6716.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6715.724093750001,"end":6720.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6720.972218750001,"end":6727.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6725.35971875,"end":6725.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6727.637843750001,"end":6732.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6732.649718750001,"end":6741.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6740.192843750001,"end":6745.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6746.9090937500005,"end":6753.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6752.02221875,"end":6754.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6754.452218750001,"end":6758.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6757.489718750001,"end":6760.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6759.3290937500005,"end":6763.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6763.682843750001,"end":6766.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6766.399718750001,"end":6769.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6769.79159375,"end":6770.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6771.61409375,"end":6773.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6774.415343750001,"end":6776.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6776.339093750001,"end":6777.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6777.25034375,"end":6777.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6778.870343750001,"end":6779.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6782.86971875,"end":6783.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6784.23659375,"end":6789.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6786.90284375,"end":6787.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6789.2147187499995,"end":6789.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6795.52596875,"end":6796.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6796.200968749999,"end":6796.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6796.403468750001,"end":6796.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6797.31471875,"end":6797.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6798.71534375,"end":6799.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6800.419718749999,"end":6802.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6802.917218750001,"end":6806.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6806.78159375,"end":6808.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6808.637843750001,"end":6809.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6810.3759687500005,"end":6812.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6812.58659375,"end":6814.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6814.42596875,"end":6819.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6820.0790937500005,"end":6821.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6821.429093750001,"end":6827.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6828.48284375,"end":6832.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6832.954718750001,"end":6835.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6836.22846875,"end":6838.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6838.42221875,"end":6842.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6842.64096875,"end":6843.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6843.75471875,"end":6848.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6848.985968750001,"end":6850.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6850.960343750001,"end":6863.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6863.07659375,"end":6868.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6869.235968750001,"end":6871.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6871.56471875,"end":6878.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6878.21346875,"end":6879.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6879.512843750001,"end":6881.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6883.27596875,"end":6894.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6893.940968750001,"end":6893.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6895.05471875,"end":6896.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6897.889718750001,"end":6909.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6898.14284375,"end":6899.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6909.550343750001,"end":6915.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6915.456593750001,"end":6918.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6918.62909375,"end":6920.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6920.87346875,"end":6929.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6930.57659375,"end":6945.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6936.229718750001,"end":6936.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6944.5322187500005,"end":6949.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6950.59034375,"end":6951.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6951.029093749999,"end":6954.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6953.22284375,"end":6960.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6960.597218750001,"end":6974.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6974.9072187500005,"end":6977.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6975.227843750001,"end":6979.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6979.42971875,"end":6981.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6981.75846875,"end":6983.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6983.83409375,"end":6987.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6987.58034375,"end":6987.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6987.63096875,"end":7001.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7001.02971875,"end":7005.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7005.48471875,"end":7018.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7019.102843750001,"end":7021.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7021.43159375,"end":7028.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7029.548468750001,"end":7034.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7035.11721875,"end":7041.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7042.2215937500005,"end":7050.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7050.608468750001,"end":7061.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7062.30284375,"end":7063.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7064.142218750001,"end":7065.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7066.4540937500005,"end":7073.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7073.946593750001,"end":7079.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7079.7684687500005,"end":7081.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7081.4559687500005,"end":7081.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7082.31659375,"end":7085.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7085.995343750001,"end":7096.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7098.044093750001,"end":7098.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7099.90034375,"end":7108.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7108.70909375,"end":7114.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7114.632218750001,"end":7117.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7117.720343750001,"end":7122.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7122.19221875,"end":7124.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7125.280343750001,"end":7138.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7138.88159375,"end":7139.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7139.894093750001,"end":7140.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7141.9697187500005,"end":7142.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7142.762843750001,"end":7142.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7142.96534375,"end":7146.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7147.403468750001,"end":7147.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7148.196593750001,"end":7149.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7149.86721875,"end":7152.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7153.1747187500005,"end":7160.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7160.68409375,"end":7162.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7162.118468750001,"end":7167.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7167.366593750001,"end":7172.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7172.327843750001,"end":7177.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7177.778468750001,"end":7180.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7181.03534375,"end":7187.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7187.68409375,"end":7195.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7195.260968750001,"end":7206.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7207.22534375,"end":7214.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7214.54909375,"end":7217.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7217.36721875,"end":7223.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7225.41659375,"end":7228.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7228.15034375,"end":7228.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7229.58471875,"end":7235.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7236.25034375,"end":7236.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7236.48659375,"end":7240.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7241.0428437499995,"end":7242.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7241.515343750001,"end":7245.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7245.464093750001,"end":7251.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7246.307843750001,"end":7247.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7252.46721875,"end":7254.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7253.59784375,"end":7255.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7256.55096875,"end":7268.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7269.983468750001,"end":7272.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7272.919718749999,"end":7280.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7281.01971875,"end":7289.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7290.38534375,"end":7296.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7297.10159375,"end":7301.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7301.624093750001,"end":7320.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7320.372218750001,"end":7325.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7326.02534375,"end":7336.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7327.45971875,"end":7328.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7328.03346875,"end":7328.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7336.74096875,"end":7344.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7347.591593749999,"end":7351.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7352.35034375,"end":7355.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7356.40034375,"end":7357.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7356.923468750001,"end":7357.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7357.75034375,"end":7357.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7357.767218750001,"end":7357.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7357.952843750001,"end":7357.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7357.9697187500005,"end":7358.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7358.93159375,"end":7374.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7375.9247187500005,"end":7377.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7378.5740937499995,"end":7379.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7380.10971875,"end":7381.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7381.61159375,"end":7388.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7389.458468750001,"end":7398.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7399.38096875,"end":7402.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7402.5028437500005,"end":7404.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7404.780968750001,"end":7413.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7414.247843749999,"end":7415.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7416.23909375,"end":7416.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7417.217843750001,"end":7418.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7418.6522187499995,"end":7423.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7423.61346875,"end":7430.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7430.97096875,"end":7430.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7430.987843750001,"end":7431.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7431.224093750001,"end":7432.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7432.1522187499995,"end":7445.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7440.842843750001,"end":7450.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7450.3603437500005,"end":7464.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7464.9403437500005,"end":7469.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7469.850968750001,"end":7470.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7471.36971875,"end":7475.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7475.31846875,"end":7475.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7475.436593750001,"end":7475.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7475.79096875,"end":7475.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7475.97659375,"end":7477.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7476.85409375,"end":7479.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7478.659718750001,"end":7479.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7480.077218750001,"end":7485.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7492.682843750001,"end":7495.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7495.905968750001,"end":7496.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7497.72846875,"end":7499.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7500.3778437500005,"end":7503.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7503.128468750001,"end":7503.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7504.7822187500005,"end":7505.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7507.5497187500005,"end":7507.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7507.583468750001,"end":7507.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7507.80284375,"end":7508.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7508.41034375,"end":7508.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7508.91659375,"end":7511.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7511.21159375,"end":7514.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7511.802218750001,"end":7512.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7512.34221875,"end":7512.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7513.439093750001,"end":7514.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7514.77221875,"end":7515.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7517.050343750001,"end":7520.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7519.530968750001,"end":7519.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7520.22284375,"end":7520.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7521.032843750001,"end":7522.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7522.70346875,"end":7523.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7524.6103437500005,"end":7529.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7529.50409375,"end":7530.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7530.465968750001,"end":7533.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7534.80284375,"end":7535.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7536.52409375,"end":7537.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7537.300343750001,"end":7538.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7538.54909375,"end":7539.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7540.28721875,"end":7541.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7541.384093750001,"end":7541.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7542.58221875,"end":7544.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7546.109093750001,"end":7552.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7553.432843750001,"end":7555.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7555.390343750001,"end":7561.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7561.61721875,"end":7563.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7565.1103437500005,"end":7567.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7567.962218750001,"end":7576.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7577.952218750001,"end":7578.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7579.13346875,"end":7580.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7582.32284375,"end":7587.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7587.081593750001,"end":7589.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7589.747843749999,"end":7591.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7591.60409375,"end":7591.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7592.481593750001,"end":7592.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7592.81909375,"end":7593.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7593.359093750001,"end":7593.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7595.046593750001,"end":7606.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7606.92659375,"end":7609.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7609.93034375,"end":7611.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7611.685343749999,"end":7615.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7613.67659375,"end":7617.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7617.89534375,"end":7621.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7621.74284375,"end":7624.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7624.66221875,"end":7632.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7632.94784375,"end":7634.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7635.52971875,"end":7636.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7636.626593750001,"end":7637.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7637.68971875,"end":7650.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7651.32471875,"end":7652.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7653.16409375,"end":7655.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7656.72471875,"end":7658.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7658.665343750001,"end":7659.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7659.99846875,"end":7661.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7661.97284375,"end":7663.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7664.35221875,"end":7665.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7665.11159375,"end":7666.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7666.545968750001,"end":7667.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7668.25034375,"end":7669.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7669.904093749999,"end":7671.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7673.81909375,"end":7674.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7674.84846875,"end":7676.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7676.8397187499995,"end":7677.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7678.18971875,"end":7678.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7679.151593750001,"end":7680.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7680.839093750001,"end":7684.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7684.3153437500005,"end":7686.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7686.34034375,"end":7686.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7687.403468750001,"end":7688.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7688.989718750001,"end":7693.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7694.30534375,"end":7695.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7696.22909375,"end":7696.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7696.9715937500005,"end":7698.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7699.165343750001,"end":7700.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7701.05534375,"end":7704.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7704.95346875,"end":7705.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7705.965968750001,"end":7707.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7708.19346875,"end":7709.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7710.67409375,"end":7712.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7713.07034375,"end":7715.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7715.939093750001,"end":7724.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7725.220343750001,"end":7730.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7730.940968750001,"end":7732.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7733.59034375,"end":7736.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7737.218468750001,"end":7739.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7740.779093749999,"end":7741.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7742.2303437499995,"end":7744.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7744.592843750001,"end":7746.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7747.03971875,"end":7747.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7748.64284375,"end":7751.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7751.78159375,"end":7753.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7753.75596875,"end":7754.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7754.852843750001,"end":7756.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7756.47284375,"end":7758.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7760.16846875,"end":7764.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7762.42971875,"end":7762.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7764.876593750001,"end":7767.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7768.42034375,"end":7770.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7769.07846875,"end":7775.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7771.94721875,"end":7772.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7776.8915937500005,"end":7777.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7778.106593750001,"end":7778.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7779.20346875,"end":7779.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7780.41846875,"end":7781.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7782.780968750001,"end":7784.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7785.413468750001,"end":7786.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7786.69596875,"end":7787.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7787.995343750001,"end":7788.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7789.04159375,"end":7791.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7792.04534375,"end":7792.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7792.8553437499995,"end":7793.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7795.302218750001,"end":7796.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7797.327218750001,"end":7797.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7797.968468750001,"end":7798.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7800.39846875,"end":7802.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7802.72721875,"end":7804.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7804.634093750001,"end":7806.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7807.536593750001,"end":7808.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7808.65034375,"end":7811.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7810.97909375,"end":7812.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7815.079718750001,"end":7815.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7815.0965937500005,"end":7817.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7815.29909375,"end":7815.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7818.792218750001,"end":7821.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7821.357218749999,"end":7824.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7822.18409375,"end":7823.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7824.9178437499995,"end":7827.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7828.1747187500005,"end":7829.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7830.30096875,"end":7830.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7831.448468750001,"end":7833.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7834.23284375,"end":7835.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7837.55721875,"end":7843.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7843.632218750001,"end":7846.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7846.80471875,"end":7848.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7849.28534375,"end":7851.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7851.546593750001,"end":7851.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7852.069718750001,"end":7852.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7853.53784375,"end":7854.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7854.229718750001,"end":7862.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7862.7684687500005,"end":7864.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7864.962218750001,"end":7866.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7866.278468750001,"end":7866.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7866.362843750001,"end":7874.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7868.30346875,"end":7868.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7872.505343750001,"end":7872.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7872.52221875,"end":7873.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7873.55159375,"end":7873.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7874.749718750001,"end":7874.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7874.7665937500005,"end":7874.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7874.7665937500005,"end":7875.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7874.850968750001,"end":7874.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7875.5428437499995,"end":7875.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7875.57659375,"end":7875.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7875.9647187499995,"end":7876.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7876.302218750001,"end":7876.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.36971875,"end":7876.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7876.6903437500005,"end":7876.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.97721875,"end":7877.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7877.02784375,"end":7877.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7877.97284375,"end":7878.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7878.02346875,"end":7878.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7878.968468750001,"end":7879.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7879.03596875,"end":7879.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7880.622218750001,"end":7887.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7887.794093750001,"end":7889.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7890.932843750001,"end":7891.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7892.9072187500005,"end":7893.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7893.95346875,"end":7894.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7895.26971875,"end":7896.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7896.75471875,"end":7897.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7899.6572187500005,"end":7908.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7908.56721875,"end":7908.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7908.8709687499995,"end":7910.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7911.35159375,"end":7914.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7914.929093750001,"end":7917.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7917.696593750001,"end":7919.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7920.29534375,"end":7921.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7921.66221875,"end":7922.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7924.4803437499995,"end":7925.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7925.64471875,"end":7926.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7927.14659375,"end":7927.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7927.60221875,"end":7930.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7930.70721875,"end":7931.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7931.888468749999,"end":7933.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7933.23846875,"end":7933.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7933.28909375,"end":7933.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7933.32284375,"end":7934.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7934.03159375,"end":7934.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7934.31846875,"end":7934.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7935.66846875,"end":7937.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7937.77784375,"end":7947.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7947.81846875,"end":7957.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7957.437218750001,"end":7959.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7959.934718750001,"end":7975.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7975.1728437500005,"end":7978.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7979.72909375,"end":7981.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7982.901593750001,"end":7985.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7985.97284375,"end":7986.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7986.10784375,"end":7996.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7997.07659375,"end":7997.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7998.52784375,"end":8005.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8006.104718750001,"end":8009.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8010.6103437500005,"end":8011.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8011.960343750001,"end":8013.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8013.512843750001,"end":8014.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8014.575968749999,"end":8015.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8015.92596875,"end":8016.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8016.98909375,"end":8019.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8020.077218750001,"end":8026.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8026.675343750001,"end":8028.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8028.24471875,"end":8030.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8028.34596875,"end":8028.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8028.37971875,"end":8028.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8031.552218750001,"end":8031.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8031.58596875,"end":8031.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8032.0584687499995,"end":8032.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8032.716593750001,"end":8033.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8034.28596875,"end":8035.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8036.26034375,"end":8037.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8038.36971875,"end":8043.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8043.82034375,"end":8049.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8049.86159375,"end":8079.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8079.47721875,"end":8079.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8079.7303437499995,"end":8079.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8079.84846875,"end":8091.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8091.44159375,"end":8094.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8094.85034375,"end":8097.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8098.529093750001,"end":8107.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8107.6415937500005,"end":8111.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8112.11346875,"end":8113.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8113.9697187500005,"end":8117.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8118.67784375,"end":8118.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8119.13346875,"end":8121.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8123.6053437499995,"end":8129.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8130.405968750001,"end":8132.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8133.34221875,"end":8135.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8134.2197187500005,"end":8136.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8137.74659375,"end":8142.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8142.319718750001,"end":8145.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8145.6103437500005,"end":8149.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8150.6053437499995,"end":8151.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8151.0272187499995,"end":8153.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8153.8622187500005,"end":8158.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8155.09409375,"end":8155.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8159.194718750001,"end":8162.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8164.08846875,"end":8169.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8167.61534375,"end":8174.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8169.184718750001,"end":8169.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8169.218468750001,"end":8169.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8169.505343750001,"end":8169.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8169.640343750001,"end":8170.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8174.567843750001,"end":8178.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8178.76971875,"end":8179.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8180.30534375,"end":8182.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8183.46096875,"end":8186.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8187.3759687500005,"end":8189.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8190.1434687500005,"end":8191.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8192.387843750003,"end":8194.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8194.581593750001,"end":8196.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8196.809093750002,"end":8198.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8199.27284375,"end":8200.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8201.01096875,"end":8202.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8202.68159375,"end":8206.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8206.86659375,"end":8207.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8208.891593750002,"end":8210.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8211.152843750002,"end":8216.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8216.33346875,"end":8218.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8219.10096875,"end":8224.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8832.878468750001,"end":8833.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8837.417843750001,"end":8839.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8847.762218750002,"end":8849.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8849.770343750002,"end":8849.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8849.78721875,"end":8850.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8850.42846875,"end":8850.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8850.664718750002,"end":8850.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8856.23346875,"end":8856.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8857.296593750001,"end":8865.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8865.88596875,"end":8869.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8869.902218750001,"end":8873.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8876.027843750002,"end":8876.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8876.58471875,"end":8876.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8877.10784375,"end":8877.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8877.141593750002,"end":8877.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8877.25971875,"end":8877.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8877.968468750001,"end":8878.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8878.812218750001,"end":8879.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8878.84596875,"end":8883.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8879.774093750002,"end":8880.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8884.48221875,"end":8901.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8901.03659375,"end":8901.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8901.47534375,"end":8901.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8901.509093750003,"end":8901.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8902.977218750002,"end":8911.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8912.34284375,"end":8918.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8918.890343750001,"end":8918.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8919.750968750002,"end":8919.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8919.76784375,"end":8920.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8921.691593750002,"end":8924.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8925.40409375,"end":8930.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8931.074093750001,"end":8934.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8934.53346875,"end":8945.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8946.480968750002,"end":8947.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8948.30346875,"end":8955.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8955.89721875,"end":8959.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8959.99784375,"end":8963.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8963.37284375,"end":8973.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8973.362843750001,"end":8973.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8974.67909375,"end":8974.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8974.695968750002,"end":8975.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8976.19784375,"end":8983.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8983.285343750002,"end":8987.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8988.26346875,"end":9009.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9009.222218750001,"end":9016.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9016.714718750001,"end":9019.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9019.54971875,"end":9020.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9020.832218750002,"end":9033.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9034.21409375,"end":9037.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9037.032218750002,"end":9037.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9037.757843750001,"end":9041.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9042.28034375,"end":9045.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9045.68909375,"end":9047.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9048.06846875,"end":9052.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9052.97909375,"end":9055.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9056.759093750003,"end":9058.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9057.19784375,"end":9057.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9057.36659375,"end":9057.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9058.024718750003,"end":9065.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9065.972843750002,"end":9076.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9077.12721875,"end":9080.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9080.82284375,"end":9084.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9086.290343750003,"end":9092.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9092.972843750002,"end":9092.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9093.124718750001,"end":9095.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9094.05284375,"end":9111.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9098.59221875,"end":9099.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9099.16596875,"end":9099.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9102.051593750002,"end":9102.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9111.636593750001,"end":9121.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9122.655968750001,"end":9127.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9128.17409375,"end":9138.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9132.105968750002,"end":9132.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9138.737843750001,"end":9139.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9140.23971875,"end":9142.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9142.61909375,"end":9143.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9144.222218750001,"end":9146.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9147.512843750003,"end":9154.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9154.85346875,"end":9154.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9154.92096875,"end":9154.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9154.97159375,"end":9155.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9155.96721875,"end":9172.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9172.84221875,"end":9180.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9180.621593750002,"end":9180.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9180.65534375,"end":9189.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9189.66659375,"end":9189.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9189.93659375,"end":9189.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9189.97034375,"end":9190.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9190.965968750003,"end":9197.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9198.390968750002,"end":9199.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9200.179718750001,"end":9205.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9200.56784375,"end":9200.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9206.305343750002,"end":9216.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9216.46409375,"end":9221.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9221.08784375,"end":9221.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9221.83034375,"end":9222.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9222.03284375,"end":9223.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9223.500968750002,"end":9226.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9225.00284375,"end":9233.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9231.887843750003,"end":9234.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9234.85784375,"end":9241.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9241.624718750001,"end":9244.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9244.78034375,"end":9246.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9246.653468750003,"end":9247.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9247.61534375,"end":9249.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9249.47159375,"end":9252.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9253.454093750002,"end":9257.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9254.196593750003,"end":9257.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9257.74034375,"end":9260.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9260.187218750001,"end":9260.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9260.997218750003,"end":9261.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9261.38534375,"end":9262.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9262.937843750002,"end":9266.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9267.34221875,"end":9270.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9270.83534375,"end":9280.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9281.04471875,"end":9281.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9282.934718750003,"end":9283.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9284.402843750002,"end":9285.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9286.259093750003,"end":9288.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9288.90846875,"end":9290.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9291.13596875,"end":9292.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9293.22846875,"end":9294.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9294.426593750002,"end":9295.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9295.320968750002,"end":9295.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9295.540343750003,"end":9296.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9297.86909375,"end":9302.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9302.847218750001,"end":9302.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9302.864093750002,"end":9311.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9311.571593750003,"end":9311.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9311.58846875,"end":9311.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9311.774093750002,"end":9311.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9311.976593750001,"end":9311.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9311.993468750003,"end":9312.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9312.027218750001,"end":9327.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9316.296593750001,"end":9316.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9328.547843750002,"end":9329.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9329.813468750002,"end":9329.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9330.606593750003,"end":9330.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9330.62346875,"end":9337.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9337.305968750003,"end":9340.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9338.01471875,"end":9338.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9340.79909375,"end":9341.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9340.84971875,"end":9343.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9342.70596875,"end":9347.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9348.325343750003,"end":9349.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9349.92846875,"end":9356.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9352.29096875,"end":9352.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9356.45909375,"end":9357.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9356.492843750002,"end":9360.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9360.188468750002,"end":9365.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9361.69034375,"end":9362.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9366.60096875,"end":9368.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9368.406593750002,"end":9376.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9376.30409375,"end":9378.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9379.797218750002,"end":9387.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9387.57659375,"end":9393.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9392.993468750003,"end":9393.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9394.039718750002,"end":9399.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9396.68909375,"end":9398.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9400.55346875,"end":9411.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9412.281593750002,"end":9426.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9419.11596875,"end":9419.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9426.69284375,"end":9443.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9445.137218750002,"end":9446.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9446.85846875,"end":9447.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9448.05659375,"end":9449.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9449.929718750001,"end":9451.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9451.735343750002,"end":9454.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9454.722218750001,"end":9456.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9457.202843750001,"end":9459.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9460.375343750002,"end":9460.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9461.28659375,"end":9463.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9463.497218750003,"end":9465.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9466.956593750001,"end":9474.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9474.972218750001,"end":9477.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9478.094093750002,"end":9479.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9479.71409375,"end":9485.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9485.839718750001,"end":9497.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9497.95596875,"end":9499.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9500.04846875,"end":9502.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9503.49096875,"end":9505.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9505.718468750001,"end":9509.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9510.51096875,"end":9511.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9512.50221875,"end":9512.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9512.535968750002,"end":9513.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9514.08846875,"end":9517.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9517.750343750002,"end":9520.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9520.61909375,"end":9520.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9520.973468750002,"end":9525.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9524.196593750003,"end":9524.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9524.297843750002,"end":9524.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9524.46659375,"end":9524.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9524.753468750001,"end":9524.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9524.78721875,"end":9530.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9550.42034375,"end":9552.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9553.390343750001,"end":9555.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9555.938468750002,"end":9556.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9561.70971875,"end":9561.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9561.726593750001,"end":9562.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9563.39721875,"end":9564.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9565.35471875,"end":9566.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9568.25721875,"end":9569.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9570.09659375,"end":9572.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9573.387218750002,"end":9575.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9576.289718750002,"end":9578.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9578.48346875,"end":9580.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9581.082218750002,"end":9581.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9582.094718750002,"end":9584.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9585.28409375,"end":9587.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9587.781593750002,"end":9590.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9590.734718750002,"end":9592.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9592.253468750001,"end":9592.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9592.320968750002,"end":9594.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9594.98721875,"end":9598.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9599.594093750002,"end":9604.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9605.11221875,"end":9606.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9607.05284375,"end":9608.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9609.68534375,"end":9612.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9613.245968750001,"end":9615.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9615.55784375,"end":9616.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9617.12721875,"end":9619.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9619.995968750001,"end":9626.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9626.94846875,"end":9633.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9633.79971875,"end":9641.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9641.562218750001,"end":9644.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9644.937218750001,"end":9651.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9651.906593750002,"end":9654.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9655.31534375,"end":9657.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9657.82971875,"end":9666.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9666.402218750001,"end":9668.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9667.53284375,"end":9668.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9668.089718750001,"end":9668.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9668.781593750002,"end":9677.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9668.79846875,"end":9670.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9677.691593750002,"end":9679.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9680.324093750001,"end":9681.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9681.657218750002,"end":9683.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9683.445968750002,"end":9684.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9685.42034375,"end":9687.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9687.563468750002,"end":9689.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9690.128468750001,"end":9692.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9693.402218750001,"end":9694.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9694.465343750002,"end":9695.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9695.612843750001,"end":9699.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9699.44346875,"end":9702.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9702.98721875,"end":9705.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9705.957218750002,"end":9708.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9708.269093750001,"end":9709.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9709.78784375,"end":9710.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9710.63159375,"end":9713.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9713.98971875,"end":9714.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9715.25534375,"end":9722.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9722.477843750003,"end":9733.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9729.683468750001,"end":9738.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9738.67784375,"end":9740.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9740.88846875,"end":9746.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9746.946593750003,"end":9746.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9747.874718750001,"end":9747.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9747.891593750002,"end":9753.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9753.527843750002,"end":9753.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9753.848468750002,"end":9754.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9755.35034375,"end":9756.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9756.97034375,"end":9758.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9759.164093750001,"end":9761.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9762.15096875,"end":9762.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9763.19721875,"end":9766.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9767.719718750002,"end":9767.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9767.972843750002,"end":9774.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9774.250343750002,"end":9781.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9782.063468750002,"end":9785.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9785.219093750002,"end":9785.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9786.687218750001,"end":9786.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9786.97409375,"end":9794.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9794.550968750002,"end":9796.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9796.035968750002,"end":9813.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9813.67034375,"end":9815.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9816.134093750003,"end":9817.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9817.77096875,"end":9819.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9819.660968750002,"end":9820.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9821.06159375,"end":9822.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9822.90096875,"end":9825.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9825.668468750002,"end":9826.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9826.765343750001,"end":9827.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9827.946593750003,"end":9829.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9829.887218750002,"end":9830.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9830.91659375,"end":9834.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9834.76409375,"end":9834.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9834.96659375,"end":9861.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9862.08471875,"end":9869.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9870.218468750001,"end":9872.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9873.188468750002,"end":9873.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9873.222218750001,"end":9874.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9874.62284375,"end":9874.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9874.63971875,"end":9878.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9879.398468750001,"end":9883.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9883.785968750002,"end":9885.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9886.23284375,"end":9888.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9889.118468750003,"end":9890.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9890.97471875,"end":9892.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9893.13471875,"end":9894.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9895.09221875,"end":9895.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9896.50971875,"end":9897.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9898.73721875,"end":9899.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9899.83409375,"end":9900.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9901.352843750003,"end":9904.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9904.49159375,"end":9907.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9907.984718750002,"end":9908.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9908.76096875,"end":9910.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9911.258468750002,"end":9912.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9913.266593750002,"end":9915.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9916.23659375,"end":9919.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9920.15159375,"end":9922.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9922.56471875,"end":9923.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9924.25221875,"end":9926.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9927.05346875,"end":9929.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9930.52971875,"end":9932.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9933.820343750001,"end":9935.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9935.33909375,"end":9935.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9935.777843750002,"end":9935.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9935.828468750002,"end":9935.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9935.96346875,"end":9954.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9954.559718750003,"end":9955.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9956.449718750002,"end":9962.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9962.00159375,"end":9962.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9962.625968750002,"end":9963.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9963.047843750002,"end":9963.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9963.874718750001,"end":9963.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9963.90846875,"end":9970.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9970.81034375,"end":9972.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9972.278468750003,"end":9975.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9976.125968750002,"end":9985.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9985.390343750001,"end":9989.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9990.824093750001,"end":9995.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9996.07221875,"end":10002.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10002.36659375,"end":10002.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10002.97409375,"end":10002.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10002.99096875,"end":10008.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10009.032218750002,"end":10012.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10012.57596875,"end":10027.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10027.03784375,"end":10027.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10027.223468750002,"end":10027.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10027.274093750002,"end":10027.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10027.29096875,"end":10027.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10027.746593750002,"end":10030.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10030.36221875,"end":10031.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10032.809093750002,"end":10033.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10038.495968750001,"end":10039.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10039.84596875,"end":10040.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10040.976593750001,"end":10041.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10041.65159375,"end":10042.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10042.95096875,"end":10043.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10045.00971875,"end":10050.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10051.01721875,"end":10062.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10062.32346875,"end":10064.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10065.175343750001,"end":10068.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10069.10721875,"end":10071.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10071.97596875,"end":10072.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10073.477843750003,"end":10073.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10073.96721875,"end":10075.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10076.903468750003,"end":10080.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10081.223468750002,"end":10084.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10084.26096875,"end":10085.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10085.88096875,"end":10086.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10086.977843750003,"end":10095.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10095.31409375,"end":10097.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10099.33034375,"end":10099.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10100.49471875,"end":10102.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10103.02596875,"end":10109.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10110.434093750002,"end":10116.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10116.25596875,"end":10123.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10123.714718750001,"end":10127.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10128.473468750002,"end":10129.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10128.86159375,"end":10130.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10131.13971875,"end":10132.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10133.62034375,"end":10134.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10135.172843750002,"end":10135.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10138.125968750002,"end":10138.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10138.851593750001,"end":10146.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10145.78721875,"end":10146.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10146.27659375,"end":10151.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10146.495968750001,"end":10146.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10151.74409375,"end":10154.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10154.933468750001,"end":10164.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10158.81471875,"end":10159.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10159.050968750002,"end":10159.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10159.962218750003,"end":10160.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10160.586593750002,"end":10161.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10164.40034375,"end":10169.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10164.602843750003,"end":10165.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10165.969718750002,"end":10166.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10168.754093750002,"end":10168.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10170.27284375,"end":10178.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10178.929718750001,"end":10180.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10181.460968750001,"end":10182.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10183.148468750001,"end":10185.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10185.59534375,"end":10186.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10187.265968750002,"end":10190.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10190.691593750002,"end":10192.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10193.66159375,"end":10195.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10196.699093750001,"end":10198.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10199.43284375,"end":10207.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10209.726593750001,"end":10209.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10209.743468750003,"end":10210.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10210.047218750002,"end":10210.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10210.13159375,"end":10210.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10210.148468750001,"end":10210.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10210.18221875,"end":10210.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10211.515343750001,"end":10215.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10230.145343750002,"end":10232.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10232.187218750001,"end":10232.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10238.32971875,"end":10238.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10238.34659375,"end":10238.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10239.29159375,"end":10244.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10244.759093750003,"end":10245.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10246.68284375,"end":10247.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10247.66159375,"end":10255.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10255.94721875,"end":10258.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10258.934093750002,"end":10261.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10262.089718750001,"end":10271.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10273.56471875,"end":10275.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10276.180343750002,"end":10280.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10281.242843750002,"end":10286.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10286.54159375,"end":10293.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10294.06784375,"end":10304.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10305.10409375,"end":10308.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10308.597218750001,"end":10309.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10309.339718750001,"end":10311.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10312.12409375,"end":10312.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10313.00159375,"end":10351.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10352.961593750002,"end":10359.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10360.015343750001,"end":10368.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10368.60471875,"end":10382.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10378.898468750001,"end":10379.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10382.492843750002,"end":10389.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10390.289093750001,"end":10394.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10393.32659375,"end":10397.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10395.874718750001,"end":10396.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10396.887218750002,"end":10431.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10432.155968750001,"end":10462.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10461.55221875,"end":10482.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10465.079093750002,"end":10465.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10483.050968750002,"end":10486.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10486.45971875,"end":10491.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10491.82596875,"end":10494.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10495.04909375,"end":10499.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10501.27596875,"end":10502.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10502.01846875,"end":10503.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10503.942218750002,"end":10506.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10506.574718750002,"end":10559.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10560.01784375,"end":10581.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10580.79096875,"end":10581.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10581.415343750003,"end":10608.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10608.65159375,"end":10618.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10619.586593750002,"end":10638.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10639.53284375,"end":10658.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10658.922218750002,"end":10661.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10661.622218750003,"end":10667.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10667.089718750001,"end":10670.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10670.39721875,"end":10697.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10698.96659375,"end":10707.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10707.387218750002,"end":10707.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10707.67409375,"end":10721.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10721.629718750002,"end":10728.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10726.422218750002,"end":10726.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10726.962218750003,"end":10729.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10728.76784375,"end":10736.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10730.489093750002,"end":10730.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10736.243468750003,"end":10753.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10753.82721875,"end":10756.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10758.04596875,"end":10765.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10760.003468750001,"end":10760.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10765.133468750002,"end":10767.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10768.32284375,"end":10770.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10770.837218750003,"end":10774.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10773.97596875,"end":10779.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10778.059718750003,"end":10782.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10782.953468750002,"end":10783.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10783.004093750002,"end":10783.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10783.08846875,"end":10789.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10790.344718750002,"end":10792.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10792.63971875,"end":10794.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10795.289093750001,"end":10804.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10803.92909375,"end":10840.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10840.530968750001,"end":10842.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10842.488468750002,"end":10878.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10878.938468750002,"end":10879.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10879.91721875,"end":10913.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10915.101593750001,"end":10920.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10920.552218750003,"end":10920.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10920.704093750002,"end":10923.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10922.020343750002,"end":10922.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10923.15096875,"end":10936.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10926.542843750001,"end":10926.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10934.727218750002,"end":10941.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10938.91221875,"end":10940.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10940.76846875,"end":10946.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10955.702843750001,"end":10959.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10959.63471875,"end":10961.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10965.33846875,"end":10965.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10965.878468750001,"end":10966.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10966.097843750002,"end":10967.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10966.33409375,"end":10966.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10967.464718750001,"end":10969.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10970.19846875,"end":10980.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10980.188468750002,"end":11009.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11009.331593750001,"end":11014.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11016.368468750003,"end":11016.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11016.95909375,"end":11018.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11018.32596875,"end":11025.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11025.61596875,"end":11030.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11030.25659375,"end":11035.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11035.707218750002,"end":11043.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11043.97596875,"end":11047.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11047.92471875,"end":11054.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11055.282218750002,"end":11071.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11071.60034375,"end":11073.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11073.895343750002,"end":11076.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11075.70096875,"end":11081.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11081.691593750002,"end":11081.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11081.708468750003,"end":11081.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11081.72534375,"end":11082.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11081.97846875,"end":11082.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11083.581593750001,"end":11085.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11085.82596875,"end":11085.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11085.84284375,"end":11086.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11086.433468750001,"end":11087.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11087.344718750002,"end":11088.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11088.72846875,"end":11089.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11090.38221875,"end":11090.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11090.618468750003,"end":11093.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11093.84159375,"end":11098.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11098.515968750002,"end":11101.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11101.317218750002,"end":11102.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11102.17784375,"end":11103.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11104.28721875,"end":11108.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11108.860343750002,"end":11110.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11111.61096875,"end":11112.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11113.04534375,"end":11115.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11115.67784375,"end":11121.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11122.461593750002,"end":11144.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11144.93909375,"end":11145.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11145.833468750003,"end":11146.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11147.43659375,"end":11155.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11155.48596875,"end":11165.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11165.762843750003,"end":11167.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11167.922843750002,"end":11171.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11171.247218750003,"end":11172.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11173.15409375,"end":11177.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11179.92096875,"end":11189.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11189.45534375,"end":11190.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11190.602843750003,"end":11191.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11191.176593750002,"end":11194.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11194.19721875,"end":11200.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11199.293468750002,"end":11208.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11200.727843750003,"end":11202.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11202.820343750001,"end":11203.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11209.18221875,"end":11210.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11210.97096875,"end":11233.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11231.558468750001,"end":11234.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11233.80284375,"end":11234.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11234.832218750002,"end":11235.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11236.40159375,"end":11258.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11248.973468750002,"end":11249.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11249.00721875,"end":11249.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11249.024093750002,"end":11249.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11249.395343750002,"end":11249.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11259.503468750001,"end":11261.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11261.427218750003,"end":11272.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11273.222843750002,"end":11282.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11282.942843750003,"end":11283.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11284.208468750003,"end":11295.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11296.020968750003,"end":11299.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11299.969718750002,"end":11301.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11302.028468750003,"end":11303.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11304.20534375,"end":11307.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11308.019093750001,"end":11316.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11316.55784375,"end":11319.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11319.696593750003,"end":11325.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11326.800968750002,"end":11338.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11332.20096875,"end":11332.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11333.145968750003,"end":11333.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11337.128468750001,"end":11344.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11344.671593750001,"end":11389.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11353.14284375,"end":11354.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11389.761593750001,"end":11393.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11393.76096875,"end":11394.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11394.95909375,"end":11396.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11396.32596875,"end":11397.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11397.000968750002,"end":11402.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11403.34596875,"end":11406.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11406.585968750001,"end":11410.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11410.500968750002,"end":11411.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11412.492218750001,"end":11418.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11412.610343750002,"end":11412.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11418.75284375,"end":11420.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11421.43596875,"end":11434.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11433.636593750001,"end":11435.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11435.020343750002,"end":11435.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11435.121593750002,"end":11437.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11436.45471875,"end":11437.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11438.04096875,"end":11440.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11440.89284375,"end":11441.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11442.867218750001,"end":11444.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11445.094718750002,"end":11447.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11448.790343750003,"end":11453.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11448.97596875,"end":11449.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11454.949718750002,"end":11458.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11456.940968750001,"end":11457.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11457.98721875,"end":11464.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11466.27284375,"end":11470.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11470.52534375,"end":11471.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11471.301593750002,"end":11472.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11472.786593750003,"end":11476.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11477.309093750002,"end":11483.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11483.805968750003,"end":11487.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11486.489093750002,"end":11486.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11486.742218750001,"end":11486.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11487.957218750002,"end":11505.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11489.172218750002,"end":11489.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11504.005343750003,"end":11504.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11505.11909375,"end":11512.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11512.18971875,"end":11512.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11512.25721875,"end":11513.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11512.274093750002,"end":11512.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11513.759093750003,"end":11517.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11525.875343750002,"end":11527.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11527.815968750001,"end":11528.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11528.54159375,"end":11529.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11535.66284375,"end":11535.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11535.96659375,"end":11536.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11536.169093750003,"end":11536.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11536.18596875,"end":11536.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11536.38846875,"end":11543.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11544.336593750002,"end":11547.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11548.15034375,"end":11554.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11554.59659375,"end":11562.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11563.270343750002,"end":11566.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11567.590343750002,"end":11573.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11574.32346875,"end":11574.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11575.605968750002,"end":11583.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11584.12784375,"end":11586.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11586.996593750002,"end":11587.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11587.890968750002,"end":11589.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11590.641593750002,"end":11599.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11594.94471875,"end":11595.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11599.21409375,"end":11604.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11604.22596875,"end":11606.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11607.719093750002,"end":11610.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11610.28409375,"end":11614.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11610.790343750003,"end":11610.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11612.66346875,"end":11612.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11612.69721875,"end":11613.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11614.38471875,"end":11619.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11619.97034375,"end":11621.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11620.105343750001,"end":11620.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11620.797218750002,"end":11627.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11627.36159375,"end":11630.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11628.79596875,"end":11635.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11635.630343750003,"end":11635.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11635.64721875,"end":11637.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11638.44846875,"end":11645.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11644.70909375,"end":11648.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11647.274093750002,"end":11650.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11649.265343750001,"end":11656.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11655.84659375,"end":11657.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11656.96034375,"end":11664.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11664.21659375,"end":11665.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11665.87034375,"end":11693.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11693.76471875,"end":11699.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11699.99159375,"end":11701.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11702.742218750001,"end":11704.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11702.77596875,"end":11705.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11704.76721875,"end":11720.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11721.270968750003,"end":11721.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11721.54096875,"end":11729.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11721.574718750002,"end":11721.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11726.28284375,"end":11727.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11727.02534375,"end":11727.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11727.93659375,"end":11728.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11728.004093750002,"end":11728.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11728.965968750003,"end":11729.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11729.25284375,"end":11729.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11729.50596875,"end":11729.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11729.60721875,"end":11730.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11732.57721875,"end":11740.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11739.563468750002,"end":11754.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11741.031593750002,"end":11741.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11744.84534375,"end":11746.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11746.07721875,"end":11746.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11750.565968750001,"end":11750.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11750.65034375,"end":11750.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11750.802218750003,"end":11750.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11750.852843750003,"end":11750.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11750.92034375,"end":11750.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11755.03784375,"end":11763.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11763.610343750002,"end":11770.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11764.504718750002,"end":11765.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11770.394093750001,"end":11784.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11786.08784375,"end":11790.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11790.340343750002,"end":11801.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11801.24159375,"end":11802.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11802.574718750002,"end":11803.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11804.19471875,"end":11809.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11810.60721875,"end":11835.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11836.172843750002,"end":11838.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11839.21034375,"end":11840.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11841.30284375,"end":11847.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11848.390343750001,"end":11851.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11850.415343750003,"end":11850.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11850.63471875,"end":11881.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11882.37659375,"end":11883.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11884.33409375,"end":11884.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11885.160968750002,"end":11885.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11886.54471875,"end":11888.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11886.949718750002,"end":11887.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11889.008468750002,"end":11895.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11895.79221875,"end":11896.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11897.10846875,"end":11899.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11898.289718750002,"end":11904.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11905.883468750002,"end":11909.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11909.07284375,"end":11909.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11910.54096875,"end":11910.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11910.55784375,"end":11910.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11910.827843750001,"end":11911.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11911.519718750002,"end":11911.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11911.620968750001,"end":11911.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11911.722218750001,"end":11911.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11911.92471875,"end":11911.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11911.97534375,"end":11912.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11912.02596875,"end":11917.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11915.62034375,"end":11915.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11915.65409375,"end":11916.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11917.72971875,"end":11917.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11917.76346875,"end":11918.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11918.050343750001,"end":11926.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11926.84221875,"end":11929.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11929.20471875,"end":11932.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11929.255343750003,"end":11929.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11931.73596875,"end":11934.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11934.65534375,"end":11937.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11935.617218750001,"end":11936.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11937.692843750003,"end":11942.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11940.949718750002,"end":11947.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11947.024718750003,"end":11953.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11947.058468750001,"end":11947.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11952.15471875,"end":11956.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11957.099093750003,"end":11958.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11959.57971875,"end":11974.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11960.79471875,"end":11961.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11961.503468750001,"end":11961.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11964.65909375,"end":11965.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11974.598468750002,"end":11980.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11975.340968750003,"end":11975.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11979.47534375,"end":11988.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11989.414718750002,"end":11992.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11993.22846875,"end":11994.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11994.96659375,"end":11995.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11995.270343750002,"end":11995.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11995.945343750001,"end":11999.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11998.98284375,"end":12002.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12002.61096875,"end":12007.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12006.120968750001,"end":12010.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12009.73221875,"end":12019.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12018.692843750003,"end":12020.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12020.71784375,"end":12042.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12043.161593750003,"end":12046.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12045.08534375,"end":12051.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12051.852218750002,"end":12055.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12055.800968750002,"end":12064.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12064.89659375,"end":12068.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12068.17034375,"end":12071.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12070.48221875,"end":12075.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12074.093468750001,"end":12075.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12075.696593750003,"end":12076.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12076.03409375,"end":12080.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12077.114093750002,"end":12077.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12081.92346875,"end":12088.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12085.129718750002,"end":12085.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12086.98596875,"end":12088.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12088.605968750002,"end":12091.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12091.96409375,"end":12099.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12098.81534375,"end":12104.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12099.60846875,"end":12101.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12103.641593750002,"end":12121.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12110.172218750002,"end":12110.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12120.26346875,"end":12120.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12120.297218750002,"end":12120.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12120.63471875,"end":12120.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12121.731593750003,"end":12121.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12121.74846875,"end":12127.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12122.507843750001,"end":12122.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12135.484718750002,"end":12136.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12137.644718750002,"end":12139.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12139.99034375,"end":12140.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12140.597843750002,"end":12141.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12141.930968750003,"end":12142.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12144.69846875,"end":12145.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12144.816593750002,"end":12145.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12145.59284375,"end":12145.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12145.69409375,"end":12146.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12146.04846875,"end":12146.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12146.06534375,"end":12178.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12179.157218750002,"end":12184.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12184.590968750003,"end":12188.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12188.370968750001,"end":12193.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12194.36159375,"end":12201.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12197.80409375,"end":12197.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12197.972843750002,"end":12198.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12201.11159375,"end":12208.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12209.22846875,"end":12209.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12210.51096875,"end":12213.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12213.278468750003,"end":12219.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12220.78784375,"end":12224.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12224.449718750002,"end":12231.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12231.992843750002,"end":12239.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12239.367218750001,"end":12243.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12243.737843750001,"end":12256.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12256.782218750002,"end":12258.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12258.75659375,"end":12261.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12262.13159375,"end":12262.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12262.92471875,"end":12264.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12264.730343750001,"end":12266.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12267.14346875,"end":12272.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12272.50971875,"end":12275.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12272.83034375,"end":12272.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12274.93971875,"end":12275.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12275.344718750002,"end":12275.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12275.445968750002,"end":12289.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12289.367843750002,"end":12294.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12294.54846875,"end":12302.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12303.610343750002,"end":12306.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12305.09534375,"end":12309.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12309.786593750003,"end":12310.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12310.05659375,"end":12319.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12319.86096875,"end":12319.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12319.87784375,"end":12335.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12335.234093750001,"end":12338.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12339.368468750003,"end":12341.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12341.54534375,"end":12346.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12346.08471875,"end":12355.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12356.05784375,"end":12365.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12365.980343750001,"end":12370.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12369.743468750003,"end":12374.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12373.30409375,"end":12375.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12376.223468750002,"end":12378.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12378.704093750002,"end":12400.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12402.480968750002,"end":12406.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12404.860343750002,"end":12405.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12405.602843750003,"end":12405.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12407.62784375,"end":12408.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12409.180343750002,"end":12413.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12411.52596875,"end":12411.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12413.179718750001,"end":12414.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12414.68159375,"end":12416.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12415.559093750002,"end":12425.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12425.633468750002,"end":12429.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12430.493468750003,"end":12440.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12440.09534375,"end":12460.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12460.868468750003,"end":12461.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12461.644718750002,"end":12468.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12467.871593750002,"end":12485.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12485.894093750001,"end":12486.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12487.24409375,"end":12492.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12492.509093750003,"end":12497.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12495.42846875,"end":12495.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12497.38596875,"end":12504.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12504.97971875,"end":12515.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12516.45471875,"end":12519.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12520.859093750001,"end":12524.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12524.976593750001,"end":12526.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12528.047843750002,"end":12539.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12539.067218750002,"end":12552.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12553.410968750002,"end":12555.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12555.70596875,"end":12557.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12558.43971875,"end":12561.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12563.063468750002,"end":12567.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12569.03721875,"end":12569.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12569.796593750001,"end":12593.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12579.550343750001,"end":12579.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12592.08846875,"end":12605.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12605.58846875,"end":12613.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12613.840343750002,"end":12618.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12619.155968750001,"end":12620.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12620.640968750002,"end":12621.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12622.51409375,"end":12623.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12623.94846875,"end":12626.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12626.53034375,"end":12636.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12638.005343750003,"end":12664.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12657.52971875,"end":12659.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12659.85846875,"end":12660.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12661.49534375,"end":12661.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12664.262843750003,"end":12670.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12672.329093750002,"end":12676.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12676.61534375,"end":12707.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12707.800343750001,"end":12732.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12732.454718750003,"end":12736.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12736.487843750001,"end":12740.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12741.145343750002,"end":12745.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12746.02221875,"end":12749.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12749.65034375,"end":12758.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12758.83034375,"end":12770.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12770.305343750002,"end":12771.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12771.452843750001,"end":12777.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12777.56159375,"end":12783.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12783.704093750002,"end":12784.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12784.61534375,"end":12786.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12786.52221875,"end":12788.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12789.559718750003,"end":12796.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12796.10721875,"end":12803.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12803.54909375,"end":12807.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12808.105343750001,"end":12810.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12810.78846875,"end":12813.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12814.26471875,"end":12816.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12827.933468750001,"end":12831.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12834.312218750001,"end":12838.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12837.82221875,"end":12838.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12838.902218750001,"end":12848.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12848.976593750001,"end":12870.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12870.79596875,"end":12887.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12888.210968750001,"end":12899.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12900.79971875,"end":12903.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12904.140968750002,"end":12907.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12909.422843750002,"end":12911.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12911.751593750003,"end":12912.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12912.409718750001,"end":12913.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12913.000343750002,"end":12919.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12919.379093750002,"end":12920.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12921.10034375,"end":12922.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12923.547218750002,"end":12925.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12925.859093750001,"end":12934.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12934.02659375,"end":12934.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12934.44846875,"end":12934.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12935.410343750002,"end":12948.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12935.427218750003,"end":12935.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12938.414093750001,"end":12938.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12948.336593750002,"end":12953.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12953.702843750001,"end":12954.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12953.753468750001,"end":12956.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12955.49159375,"end":12967.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12967.911593750003,"end":12972.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12973.159718750001,"end":12989.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12990.000968750002,"end":12990.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12990.76034375,"end":12991.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12991.50284375,"end":13008.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13008.715343750002,"end":13031.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13011.43221875,"end":13011.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13031.277218750001,"end":13040.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13040.96346875,"end":13041.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13042.988468750002,"end":13044.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13044.76034375,"end":13078.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13078.577843750001,"end":13084.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13084.99034375,"end":13088.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13085.800343750001,"end":13088.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13088.26409375,"end":13088.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13088.31471875,"end":13088.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13088.517218750003,"end":13089.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13089.040343750003,"end":13089.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13091.06534375,"end":13092.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13093.309718750003,"end":13095.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13095.368468750003,"end":13095.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13095.38534375,"end":13095.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13096.07721875,"end":13106.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13105.51034375,"end":13131.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13106.72534375,"end":13106.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13131.76784375,"end":13138.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13139.125343750002,"end":13140.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13141.11659375,"end":13175.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13153.722218750001,"end":13154.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13175.71034375,"end":13177.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13177.583468750003,"end":13178.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13178.29221875,"end":13180.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13180.992218750001,"end":13182.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13182.08909375,"end":13183.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13184.164718750002,"end":13192.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13192.652843750002,"end":13193.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13195.335968750001,"end":13197.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13198.019093750001,"end":13199.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13200.128468750001,"end":13204.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13204.718468750001,"end":13205.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13205.680343750002,"end":13210.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13211.097218750001,"end":13212.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13212.29534375,"end":13217.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13218.10034375,"end":13222.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13223.16284375,"end":13226.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13226.655968750001,"end":13228.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13226.68971875,"end":13231.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13232.49471875,"end":13236.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13236.66284375,"end":13239.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13240.172843750002,"end":13252.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13253.74034375,"end":13275.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13275.30659375,"end":13277.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13277.922218750002,"end":13279.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13279.356593750003,"end":13281.735968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13280.183468750001,"end":13280.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13282.42784375,"end":13291.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13291.87784375,"end":13292.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13293.29534375,"end":13296.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13296.41721875,"end":13296.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13298.25659375,"end":13298.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13298.290343750003,"end":13298.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13298.864093750002,"end":13299.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13299.032843750003,"end":13305.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13300.534718750001,"end":13301.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13304.702843750001,"end":13306.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13306.59284375,"end":13306.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13306.677218750003,"end":13306.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13306.778468750003,"end":13307.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13307.200343750003,"end":13308.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13308.95534375,"end":13309.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13309.309718750003,"end":13314.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13309.42784375,"end":13310.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13313.66346875,"end":13322.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13322.860343750002,"end":13323.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13324.969718750002,"end":13325.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13325.13846875,"end":13330.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13325.15534375,"end":13325.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13329.67784375,"end":13331.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13331.027843750002,"end":13331.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13331.04471875,"end":13331.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13331.06159375,"end":13331.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13331.669093750003,"end":13333.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13331.871593750002,"end":13339.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13340.055968750003,"end":13340.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13340.089718750001,"end":13340.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13340.106593750003,"end":13353.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13340.933468750001,"end":13341.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13353.99471875,"end":13354.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13354.51784375,"end":13356.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13356.964718750001,"end":13358.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13357.673468750003,"end":13361.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13373.40096875,"end":13373.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13373.417843750001,"end":13373.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13373.87346875,"end":13373.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13374.09284375,"end":13374.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13374.210968750001,"end":13374.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13374.312218750001,"end":13375.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13375.898468750001,"end":13377.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13377.535343750002,"end":13378.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13380.10034375,"end":13380.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13381.703468750002,"end":13382.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13383.087218750003,"end":13384.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13385.247218750003,"end":13385.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13386.765968750002,"end":13388.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13389.33096875,"end":13392.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13393.110968750003,"end":13395.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13396.65471875,"end":13397.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13397.903468750003,"end":13399.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13400.14784375,"end":13402.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13403.25284375,"end":13404.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13405.93596875,"end":13406.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13407.015968750002,"end":13408.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13409.142218750003,"end":13410.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13411.184093750002,"end":13413.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13413.495968750001,"end":13417.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13417.714718750001,"end":13418.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13419.840968750003,"end":13429.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13429.814093750003,"end":13435.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13437.05346875,"end":13440.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13441.54221875,"end":13443.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13444.140968750002,"end":13450.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13450.789718750002,"end":13451.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13451.802218750003,"end":13454.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13455.008468750002,"end":13455.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13456.274093750002,"end":13456.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13457.55659375,"end":13458.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13459.176593750002,"end":13460.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13461.184718750003,"end":13462.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13462.99034375,"end":13463.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13463.969093750002,"end":13466.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13466.719718750002,"end":13470.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13470.58409375,"end":13473.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13474.195343750001,"end":13475.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13476.254093750002,"end":13476.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13476.895343750002,"end":13478.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13479.13971875,"end":13479.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13479.899093750002,"end":13480.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13481.65409375,"end":13482.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13482.91971875,"end":13484.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13485.36659375,"end":13486.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13487.543468750002,"end":13490.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13491.74534375,"end":13494.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13494.495968750001,"end":13496.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13496.976593750001,"end":13500.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13500.452843750001,"end":13500.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13502.039093750001,"end":13503.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13504.08096875,"end":13505.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13506.93284375,"end":13508.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13510.155968750001,"end":13512.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13513.46346875,"end":13514.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13515.269093750001,"end":13516.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13517.715968750003,"end":13520.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13520.601593750001,"end":13523.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13524.769718750002,"end":13526.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13526.777843750002,"end":13531.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13532.54909375,"end":13534.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13535.535968750002,"end":13537.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13538.320343750001,"end":13539.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13539.923468750003,"end":13542.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13543.500968750002,"end":13546.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13547.399093750002,"end":13549.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13550.85846875,"end":13552.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13553.305343750002,"end":13556.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13557.28784375,"end":13565.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13566.855968750002,"end":13572.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13572.94784375,"end":13574.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13575.05721875,"end":13581.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13581.503468750001,"end":13584.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13585.215968750003,"end":13589.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13589.687843750002,"end":13591.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13591.695968750002,"end":13593.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13594.21034375,"end":13595.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13596.62346875,"end":13599.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13599.762218750002,"end":13601.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13602.64784375,"end":13604.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13604.95971875,"end":13615.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13615.219718750002,"end":13618.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13619.421593750001,"end":13621.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13621.78409375,"end":13624.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13625.243468750003,"end":13626.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13628.196593750003,"end":13629.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13630.407218750002,"end":13639.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13640.211593750002,"end":13642.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13642.87784375,"end":13645.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13645.746593750002,"end":13647.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13648.750343750002,"end":13655.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13655.770343750002,"end":13657.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13659.38159375,"end":13659.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13660.714718750001,"end":13663.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13663.38096875,"end":13665.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13665.743468750003,"end":13668.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13669.270343750002,"end":13671.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13671.24471875,"end":13673.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13673.94471875,"end":13674.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13676.695343750001,"end":13677.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13678.83846875,"end":13686.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13687.90034375,"end":13691.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13692.13596875,"end":13694.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13694.49846875,"end":13695.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13696.65846875,"end":13698.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13698.953468750002,"end":13699.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13700.30346875,"end":13701.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13702.14284375,"end":13726.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13704.184718750003,"end":13706.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13716.368468750003,"end":13716.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13726.83096875,"end":13729.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13729.14284375,"end":13730.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13730.10471875,"end":13730.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13730.10471875,"end":13733.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13730.35784375,"end":13730.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13730.610968750003,"end":13733.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13734.30659375,"end":13734.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13735.487843750001,"end":13736.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13736.43284375,"end":13744.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13744.54971875,"end":13749.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13748.76846875,"end":13749.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13749.780968750001,"end":13749.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13749.86534375,"end":13749.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13749.96659375,"end":13750.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13750.995968750001,"end":13759.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13760.445968750002,"end":13760.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13761.137843750003,"end":13767.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13768.02284375,"end":13768.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13769.153468750003,"end":13773.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13774.18221875,"end":13782.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13782.585968750001,"end":13794.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13795.630343750003,"end":13802.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13803.24096875,"end":13806.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13807.35846875,"end":13814.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13814.766593750002,"end":13817.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13818.00659375,"end":13819.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13820.082218750002,"end":13821.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13822.32659375,"end":13834.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13834.375343750002,"end":13835.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13835.489093750002,"end":13838.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13838.442218750002,"end":13839.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13839.82596875,"end":13840.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13839.94409375,"end":13841.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13841.53034375,"end":13841.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13841.547218750002,"end":13841.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13841.58096875,"end":13841.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13841.749718750001,"end":13856.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13850.085968750001,"end":13850.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13850.102843750003,"end":13851.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13851.97596875,"end":13853.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13857.527843750002,"end":13860.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13860.902843750002,"end":13866.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13866.539093750001,"end":13870.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13870.20096875,"end":13870.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13870.234718750002,"end":13870.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13870.31909375,"end":13870.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13870.352843750003,"end":13870.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13870.403468750003,"end":13877.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13870.42034375,"end":13871.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13878.452843750001,"end":13884.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13884.46034375,"end":13885.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13885.911593750003,"end":13888.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13888.61159375,"end":13894.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13895.20971875,"end":13898.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13896.32346875,"end":13896.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13898.972843750002,"end":13902.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13902.63471875,"end":13916.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13916.52284375,"end":13927.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13927.980968750002,"end":13931.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13931.828468750002,"end":13934.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13934.76471875,"end":13952.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13942.425968750002,"end":13945.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13952.652218750001,"end":13957.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13957.309718750003,"end":13959.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13959.300968750002,"end":13959.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13960.80284375,"end":13963.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13964.042843750001,"end":13967.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13968.29534375,"end":13973.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13973.72909375,"end":13980.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13981.305968750003,"end":13989.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13989.96284375,"end":13991.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13992.71346875,"end":13993.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13993.60784375,"end":13994.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13995.261593750001,"end":14000.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14001.74159375,"end":14006.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14006.922218750002,"end":14008.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14009.234093750001,"end":14011.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14012.11971875,"end":14012.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14012.91284375,"end":14014.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14014.735343750002,"end":14026.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14027.50971875,"end":14034.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14034.563468750002,"end":14034.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14034.79971875,"end":14034.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14034.90096875,"end":14034.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14034.968468750001,"end":14043.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14038.32659375,"end":14038.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14044.18221875,"end":14045.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14045.684093750002,"end":14046.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14047.40534375,"end":14049.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14050.03784375,"end":14053.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14053.66596875,"end":14058.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14058.863468750002,"end":14063.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14063.79096875,"end":14068.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14069.69721875,"end":14072.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14071.28346875,"end":14077.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14074.33784375,"end":14076.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14077.274093750002,"end":14077.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14077.645343750002,"end":14077.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14077.695968750002,"end":14077.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14077.78034375,"end":14077.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14077.847843750002,"end":14077.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14077.898468750001,"end":14078.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14078.016593750002,"end":14078.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14078.387843750003,"end":14078.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14078.472218750001,"end":14080.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14080.007843750001,"end":14080.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14080.328468750002,"end":14081.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14092.05659375,"end":14096.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14097.33846875,"end":14099.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14101.320968750002,"end":14102.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14103.34596875,"end":14103.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14103.362843750001,"end":14106.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14106.45096875,"end":14138.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14139.711593750002,"end":14142.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14143.84596875,"end":14144.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14145.077843750001,"end":14148.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14148.739718750003,"end":14150.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14150.96721875,"end":14157.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14158.76346875,"end":14160.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14160.09659375,"end":14167.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14161.750343750002,"end":14162.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14162.03721875,"end":14162.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14162.813468750002,"end":14163.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14163.032843750003,"end":14166.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14169.040343750003,"end":14171.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14171.06534375,"end":14179.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14179.587218750003,"end":14201.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14203.07721875,"end":14206.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14206.55346875,"end":14215.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14215.14284375,"end":14225.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14225.605343750001,"end":14271.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14271.269093750001,"end":14275.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14277.360968750003,"end":14283.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14283.75659375,"end":14286.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14286.13596875,"end":14287.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14288.34659375,"end":14290.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14290.92846875,"end":14294.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14294.438468750002,"end":14298.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14298.79221875,"end":14301.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14301.79596875,"end":14341.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14343.325343750003,"end":14343.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14343.34221875,"end":14344.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14344.962218750003,"end":14345.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14345.789093750001,"end":14350.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14351.189093750003,"end":14356.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14356.403468750003,"end":14360.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14361.128468750001,"end":14363.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14364.60471875,"end":14368.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14369.49846875,"end":14369.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14369.97096875,"end":14456.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14457.315968750001,"end":14459.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14459.374718750001,"end":14460.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14461.281593750002,"end":14461.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14462.142218750003,"end":14478.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14478.54471875,"end":14489.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14484.41721875,"end":14484.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14489.47971875,"end":14523.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14524.191593750002,"end":14534.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14534.417843750001,"end":14538.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14537.421593750001,"end":14537.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14537.55659375,"end":14542.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14550.769718750002,"end":14553.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14554.296593750001,"end":14557.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14558.481593750003,"end":14558.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14558.49846875,"end":14558.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14558.633468750002,"end":14558.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14558.70096875,"end":14558.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14558.71784375,"end":14559.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14559.56159375,"end":14559.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14559.66284375,"end":14560.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14560.03409375,"end":14562.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14562.66659375,"end":14585.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14586.257843750001,"end":14621.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14622.977843750003,"end":14624.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14623.129718750002,"end":14623.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14625.79596875,"end":14628.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14628.816593750002,"end":14631.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14631.989093750002,"end":14634.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14634.33471875,"end":14635.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14636.798468750003,"end":14640.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14640.595343750003,"end":14646.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14646.83909375,"end":14651.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14652.222218750001,"end":14654.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14655.124718750001,"end":14657.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14658.06096875,"end":14659.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14659.84971875,"end":14665.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14665.87409375,"end":14667.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14668.320968750002,"end":14671.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14672.13471875,"end":14676.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14676.387218750002,"end":14690.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14692.148468750001,"end":14699.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14698.56096875,"end":14703.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14703.454718750003,"end":14708.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14708.989718750003,"end":14712.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14712.567218750002,"end":14716.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14716.414718750002,"end":14719.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14719.739093750002,"end":14721.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14721.578468750002,"end":14723.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14723.62034375,"end":14735.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14729.35784375,"end":14780.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14780.97846875,"end":14789.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14791.238468750002,"end":14797.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14797.22909375,"end":14804.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14804.02971875,"end":14847.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14847.550343750001,"end":14848.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14848.579718750003,"end":14861.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14861.52284375,"end":14880.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14880.16971875,"end":14894.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14894.243468750003,"end":14895.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14895.593468750001,"end":14914.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14915.472218750001,"end":14916.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14916.82221875,"end":14924.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14924.63534375,"end":14934.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14934.13596875,"end":14941.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14936.279093750003,"end":14936.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14938.55721875,"end":14939.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14941.392218750003,"end":14944.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14942.438468750002,"end":14949.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14946.066593750002,"end":14947.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14948.091593750003,"end":14949.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14949.981593750003,"end":14949.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14949.99846875,"end":14951.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14951.43284375,"end":14952.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14952.79971875,"end":14962.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14963.07659375,"end":14971.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14980.829093750002,"end":14985.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14985.419093750003,"end":14985.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14985.452843750001,"end":14986.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14986.245968750001,"end":14986.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14990.565968750001,"end":14990.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14990.582843750002,"end":14992.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14992.152218750001,"end":15046.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15048.126593750003,"end":15054.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15054.57284375,"end":15063.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15063.870968750001,"end":15087.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15088.440968750001,"end":15100.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15092.558468750001,"end":15092.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15100.101593750001,"end":15109.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15109.83846875,"end":15144.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15144.077843750001,"end":15144.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15144.415343750003,"end":15167.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15167.80409375,"end":15192.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15192.610343750002,"end":15238.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15239.370968750001,"end":15249.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15250.035968750002,"end":15258.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15256.80284375,"end":15257.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15258.01784375,"end":15302.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15302.68596875,"end":15306.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15304.677218750003,"end":15305.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15306.972218750001,"end":15325.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15325.73721875,"end":15326.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15326.800343750001,"end":15344.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15344.704718750003,"end":15355.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15363.97596875,"end":15364.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15365.629718750002,"end":15366.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15366.692843750003,"end":15366.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15380.715968750003,"end":15382.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15382.84221875,"end":15384.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15385.457843750002,"end":15385.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15385.59284375,"end":15386.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15386.183468750001,"end":15386.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15386.892218750003,"end":15388.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15388.96784375,"end":15390.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15397.101593750001,"end":15397.810343750003}],"whisperx":[{"start":226.041,"end":228.186,"text":"有限電視與MV123、MV124到華視官網與手機APP投入"},{"start":1736.977,"end":1738.479,"text":"好,請指揮秘書報告出席委員會"},{"start":1741.38,"end":1752.844,"text":"報告委員會出席委員已足法定人數好現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國113年3月13日星期三9時至13時1分中華民國113年3月14日星期四9時至12時46分地點七仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林大夫等14人列席委員謝一鳳等16人列席官員"},{"start":1770.451,"end":1778.377,"text":"113年3月13日星期三行政院主計總署主計長朱哲銘、審計部審計長陳瑞銘等113年3月14日星期四中央銀行總裁楊金龍等主席羅昭紀委明財113年3月13日報告事項"},{"start":1785.763,"end":1802.463,"text":"一、宣讀上市會議議事錄決定、議事錄確定二、邀請行政院主計總署朱主計長哲銘、沈基部陳沈計長瑞敏率署署單位主管列席議會報告．並備質詢經行政院主計總署主計長朱哲銘、沈基部沈計長陳瑞敏分別提出報告後"},{"start":1803.024,"end":1821.555,"text":"藉由委員林德福等18人提出質詢均經行政院主計總署主計長朱哲銘、審計部審計長陳瑞銘等予以答覆決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請行政院主計總署及審計部一周內與書面答覆委員另要求期限者從即鎖定通過臨時提案一案"},{"start":1822.975,"end":1850.583,"text":"113年3月14日報告事項邀請中央銀行總裁金融率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告．並備質詢經中央銀行總裁楊金榮提出報告後即由委員林大夫等18人提出質詢均經中央銀行總裁楊金榮等一律答覆決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行一周內以書面答覆委員另要求其見者長期鎖定宣傳完畢"},{"start":1852.418,"end":1858.635,"text":"好,我們現場的委員法定人數不足,議事入站不確定,請議事人宣讀今日的議程"},{"start":1860.444,"end":1880.476,"text":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠．中央銀行分別就．從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資．避免熱錢過度投入房市．進行專題報告．並備質詢"},{"start":1882.737,"end":1910.578,"text":"好先介紹在場委員與官員首先我們介紹資深的我們立法院財政委員會委員吳秉樂部委員金管會主委黃天牧黃主委營養局莊秀元局長政區局副局長高金平保險局局長施瓊華檢察局局長張子昊我們臺灣證券交易股份有限公司總經理簡立中"},{"start":1912.421,"end":1928.968,"text":"以及櫃檯買賣中心董事長陳永誠、總經理李愛玲、央行副總裁嚴忠大勇副總裁好現在今日議程"},{"start":1931.304,"end":1951.571,"text":"我們今日議程安排邀請我們金管會黃天牧主委還有櫃買中心以及我們證交所、中央銀行分別就從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資．避免熱錢過度投入股市．進行專案報告．並備質詢現在請金管會主委進行專題報告"},{"start":1966.747,"end":1981.161,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今天陳貴委會邀請就ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資避免熱錢過度投入房市進行專案報告"},{"start":1982.802,"end":2008.084,"text":"以下僅就ETF在國內外市場發展概況以及金管會過去所採取的措施進行說明再針對健全投資管道金管會近期推動或規劃的多元化投資商品及制度面措施說明我想跟委員報告因為時間有限我就用摘要的方式做報告"},{"start":2010.003,"end":2037.542,"text":"有關ETF的簡介我就略而不談第二頁ETF的特性它的特性當然就是透明度高因為它的成分股會定期對外揭露它可以分散投資的風險那第二個當然雖然它相對可以分散投資風險並不表示它沒有風險那哪些風險投資人要注意比方市場風險"},{"start":2039.505,"end":2058.933,"text":"交易的折翼價風險、交易不活絡時面臨的流動性風險以及它追蹤指數時可能產生相關的差異的追蹤誤差風險那或者也可能產生一些特定事故發生之後產生的下市至終止上市風險"},{"start":2061.274,"end":2087.416,"text":"那當然ETF是追蹤相關的指數那這種指數的編制原則跟大盤指數不同所以ETF的績效表現也未必跟傳統的大盤指數一致那第二點ETF的這個市場概況請各位翻到第4頁到今年2月底指"},{"start":2088.992,"end":2099.557,"text":"臺灣的ETF市場共有241檔ETF掛牌交易其中227檔是有關證券投資信託的14檔是期貨的合計是4兆1990億元那有關證券投資信託部分有4兆1755億元占整個證投信基金7兆多的58.05%"},{"start":2115.338,"end":2121.071,"text":"這裡大家關心的是投資國內有價證券臺股的ETF大概佔48檔規模1兆5278億元"},{"start":2125.765,"end":2154.619,"text":"那根據證交所的資料顯示到今年1月底為止所有上市櫃48檔臺股所持有的股票的市值占全市場股票市值的2.38那這兩年來ETF的交易的成份股的成交值跟成交股數在整體股市成交值跟股數比例大概就是1左右那如果我們把"},{"start":2156.002,"end":2180.454,"text":"投信基金以股票為主的投信基金的5175億加在這個ETF的以股票為主的ETF合計大概整個佔市值也不過大概3.15左右那亞洲地區來講我們的ETF的規模是第三成交值是第五接下來我跟各位報告其實在過去這幾年來"},{"start":2182.981,"end":2199.701,"text":"以臺股為標題的ETF包括債券ETF都是不斷地在成長但金管會對於ETF的監理不是只有現在我們過去這數年來其實已經不斷地在關注這個市場在採取相關的措施"},{"start":2200.987,"end":2225.306,"text":"那當然近期內的熱絡的現象我們也會從投資教育宣導強化配息資訊揭露跟參考國際監理趨勢及辦理專案檢查來加強各類的措施這裡簡單的跟各位委員報告那投資人層面部分一定要非常落實認識客戶跟認識商品"},{"start":2227.812,"end":2242.485,"text":"當然尤其投資人在初級市場申購ETF必須要做好前面這些KYP跟KYC的工作尤其在文宣上面公會有相關的會員及其銷售機構從事廣告營業活動的規範"},{"start":2246.577,"end":2269.464,"text":"交易宣導部分我們在去年11月7日就已經喊請交易所購買中心跟工會要強化ETF投資觀念的宣導尤其要透過新型態的媒體管道來提升對於年輕族群宣導的觸及率也請工會抽合廣告內容的妥適性"},{"start":2271.004,"end":2291.625,"text":"提醒業者要遵循廣告的規範不希望投資人誤解商品另外也請證交所要建置投資常用的參考資料的單一查詢入口我們也會定期發布新聞稿提醒投資人第七頁至於說最近"},{"start":2292.506,"end":2314.833,"text":"因為很多投信所推出的配息的ETF這個配息有相關來自評準金的或是對於配息的相關的資訊有不夠清楚的我們有採取相關的措施我們除了請投信公會加強查核ETF配息的廣告外"},{"start":2316.235,"end":2339.371,"text":"並且在今年的1月15號請工會修正了配息的相關廣告規範包括不得以月配息為廣告或銷售的主要訴求不應以年化配息率為廣告的內容如果配息是來自收益本評準金的資訊揭露應該要加注"},{"start":2340.481,"end":2366.339,"text":"基金的配息來源可能為收益評準金的僅餘每日在公司網站公布禁止的組成項目以及在公司網站建置收益評準金專區及參考事例我們也會加強配型型ETF的審查跟加強ETF的資訊介入以及訂定收益評準金的分配原則"},{"start":2368.271,"end":2382.166,"text":"第9頁,我們也在最近這5年有將ETF列入年度檢查重點今年1月,也曾經對幾家承作量較大的投信公司辦理專案檢查"},{"start":2384.346,"end":2410.407,"text":"包括下面這些銷售募集、配息政策、評準金使用原則等等那我們也看到了在這幾家比較大型的投信公司的缺失往往也看到了它在廣告型銷警語上沒有以顯著方式介入或者對於指數的追蹤方面、列管方面有可以再改進的地方另外"},{"start":2411.212,"end":2438.863,"text":"金管會在今年的2月底也發布新聞稿參考了國際證券管理機構組織對於ETF全球的管理規範的一個指引訂立了相關的措施包括產品結構面的管理包括資訊介入包括流動性提供第10頁目前規劃的強化管理措施包括"},{"start":2440.455,"end":2455.544,"text":"我們在日常的監理跟檢查發現投信公司跟網紅的合作上面有需要加強的地方因為發覺投信透過網紅從媒體從事基金的付費置入性行銷廣告"},{"start":2458.22,"end":2478.019,"text":"跟工會的廣告規範上面是不是有不同這部分要求進一步的去規範所以我們已經在年初請工會去修正廣告規範增訂相關的自律規範原則上會在今年6月底前完成"},{"start":2479.619,"end":2502.43,"text":"另外我們也非常關心國際間對於尤其是國際證券管理機構對於財經網紅的國際監理的規範我們會密切注意國際的規範適時納入第二點大家關心的ETF是不是會成份股過度雷同有所謂集中度風險的問題"},{"start":2504.321,"end":2522.015,"text":"所以為了要掌握ETF投資規模帶來的相關風險我們已經在今年1月初喊請交易所購買中心督導投信事業要針對規模較大的ETF管控相關的投資風險以及研擬相關的風險抵禦力機制"},{"start":2525.785,"end":2554.337,"text":"也請兩個交易所要評估市場面臨的交易風險以及嚴厲適度的強化風險控管的措施我們也請交易所要掌控個別股票ETF對個別股票持有的狀況作為將來指數審查的參考並且要建立整個市場的資料庫來定期監控當然最重要一點除了"},{"start":2555.785,"end":2568.953,"text":"除了這個日常的監理之外我們今年也會以這個投信的ETF作為我們金融檢查的重點那麼這些重點就包括我們過去看到的缺失跟現在大家關心的議題"},{"start":2571.434,"end":2600.513,"text":"至於說今天這個主題中有關如何推動多元化的投資商品我想第一點也非常感謝行政院在上禮拜通過了不動產證券投信投顧法我們會將不動產投資信託基金所謂REITs以基金方式發行而報送到大院來審核那這樣一個商品其實是可以提供國人新的一個投資的管道"},{"start":2602.264,"end":2625.389,"text":"另外我們也在規劃多重資產型跟主動型的ETF那是另外一種形式的ETF如果配套措施完備也可以提供國人另外一個投資管道另外我們也有交易所跟櫃買中心都有創新版的設置櫃買中心也有永續債券商品的投資"},{"start":2627.591,"end":2647.427,"text":"第15頁我們也放寬了銀行辦理高資產客戶適用的相關的規定到今年1月底已經有近7400人他的規模大概在8800億是屬於高資產的客戶那證券商部分擁有857個人交易金額是1500億左右"},{"start":2650.376,"end":2676.451,"text":"我們會繼續精進法規尤其是延攬國際間辦理財富管理有經驗的機構加入這個市場在第17頁證券商財富管理信託服務部分目前正在積極研擬中另外我們也鼓勵券商辦理客戶定期定額方式購買股票跟ETF我到113年2月抵止也有155萬人在做這樣的一個投資"},{"start":2681.328,"end":2683.329,"text":"提供國人一個更多投資管道的選擇"},{"start":2710.865,"end":2725.808,"text":"另外我們為了推動普惠金融也精進盤中領股交易制度去年11月我們的資訊揭露時間縮短成5秒那到今年12月我們會把整個交易的時間也縮短成5秒"},{"start":2727.932,"end":2742.861,"text":"另外大家關心的是臺股是不是只有大型權值股是佔整個的這個交易或市值的主流那我們也從2021年開始推動優質股票造勢制度"},{"start":2744.239,"end":2769.478,"text":"這部分績效在20月各位可以參考另外我們也推動國人退休準備平臺我想結語是ETF是一個可以使投資人以有限資金投資一燃子股票跟債券適合長期持有有助於吸引更多投資人進入市場而且全球各國對ETF的推動也都是非常的積極"},{"start":2770.899,"end":2799.673,"text":"那這個商品基本上我想對國人投資理財是正面的重點是我們怎麼適度的監理提醒民眾瞭解ETF的風險也在行銷過程中投資人不至於被不當的行銷管道所誤導我想這是我們要繼續努力的以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝黃主委的報告我想我們在場的這個法定人數已經足夠我想先確認一下這個意思現場有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":2801.428,"end":2808.091,"text":"主席各位委員今天呈邀前來貴委員會專題報告自感榮幸以下請就本行業務相關部分提出報告"},{"start":2828.223,"end":2831.287,"text":"第一節我們要說明是由於臺灣的長期淨產站順暢與超額儲蓄以致國內資金充足"},{"start":2837.216,"end":2862.108,"text":"第一點,臺灣的經濟成長動能高度仰賴國外需求也造成了我們長期的金殘障順差第二點,金殘障順差反映國內的超額儲蓄臺灣超額儲蓄的累積也使得國內資金充裕各位在圖一可以明顯的看到我們的金殘障特別是自109年以來金殘障順差的規模金額才持續在增加"},{"start":2863.561,"end":2883.104,"text":"第三點 臺灣的國民儲蓄率遠大於國內投資率近10年超過儲蓄率都持續超過10%我們看到下一頁的圖二第二節我們想說明的是本行採取措施來沖消餘裕資金並持續在公開市場上操作"},{"start":2884.025,"end":2899.252,"text":"第一點,國內銀行資金充裕本行進行公開市場操作來調節金融由於資金充裕銀行並無向本行申請隆通資金的需求為回收銀行體系餘裕資金"},{"start":2900.473,"end":2928.568,"text":"本行持續發行各種天期的長期定存單來沖銷資金在資金寬鬆的時候我們透過發行定存單來回收餘裕資金那第三點我們想說明的是在本行沖銷市場資金之下銀行的資金維持在一個妥適的水準除了公開市場操作之外本行的操作工具還有包括了存款準備金制度與銀行轉存款"},{"start":2929.878,"end":2934.031,"text":"截至去年底各項操作工具的沖銷金額達到12.9兆元"},{"start":2937.554,"end":2960.993,"text":"第三點我們想說明的是銀行存款資金的運用有它的限制性銀行實務運作上常常需要持有超額準備過去外界多將銀行存放款的差額視為或簡化為爛頭寸這種看法實際上與銀行實務有所差距的請大家翻到下一頁"},{"start":2962.054,"end":2985.843,"text":"我們這邊用一個去年底的本國銀行資料為說明銀行存款的資金高達54.9兆那扣除法定資金用途以後銀行可以運用的資金為42.14兆元那其中用於放款、金融投資剩下來的超額準備大概只有0.01兆相當於100億左右銀行"},{"start":2990.485,"end":3004.529,"text":"銀行資金除了用於購買金融性資產收取獲利之外它也會因應不確定因素而保有不具收益性的超額準備各位可以看一下圖山我們列示臺灣的那個"},{"start":3007.09,"end":3007.13,"text":"第5頁說明"},{"start":3030.161,"end":3055.08,"text":"本函實行選擇性信用管制措施．落實信用資源有效分配配合行政院的健全房市市場方案本函五度調整選擇性信用管制措施．避免過多信用資源流向不動產市場此外本函的升息與調升存款準備率政策．亦有助於強化選擇性信用管制的成效"},{"start":3056.837,"end":3072.855,"text":"第二點我們要說明是為緩緩熱錢流入房市的投機炒作相關部會已陸續提出相關的改善措施有助於抑制國內的不動產炒作及囤屋現象請大家翻到下一頁"},{"start":3075.25,"end":3089.88,"text":"第4節我們想說明的是一善用超額儲蓄資金投入國內國內外的實體投資以促進經濟平衡發展這裡我們列出以下三點面向建議提供大家參考"},{"start":3090.799,"end":3109.789,"text":"第一點 增強民間部門參與公共建設的量能並同時為因應少子化、高齡化的趨勢以及淨零排碳的目標推動相關的基礎建設第二點 為因應家庭部門的儲蓄率高可以引導民間資金投入金融服務業及財富管理業務"},{"start":3111.01,"end":3137.632,"text":"第三點,善用超額儲蓄進行跨國併購．以取得關鍵技術及戰略性資源．並協助產商全球布局．鞏固其全球價值鏈的地位最後在結語的部分,我們想說的是．未來本行將繼續持續運用各種貨幣政策操作工具．促進國內信用資源有效配置．降低金融市場及不動產市場的風險以上報告,請各位委員指教,謝謝"},{"start":3138.593,"end":3160.901,"text":"好 謝謝嚴副總裁我們現在開始進行詢答先做一下的宣告每位出席委員發言時間為8分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘必要時延長為1分鐘今天上午10點半為止結旨發言登記現在依照登記的順序請登記第一位林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3168.979,"end":3172.982,"text":"為了買高股息的ETF"},{"start":3193.442,"end":3211.287,"text":"有很多人賣房子賣房金來搶ETF連銀行定存都被民眾大幅度的來解約來轉進那我請問主委網紅話術是不是造成亂象的一個主因您的看法呢我跟委員報告"},{"start":3213.061,"end":3223.477,"text":"金柏林最近這一檔我們的檢察局在今年年初針對幾家大型投信他們做ETF投資的這個行銷發覺這是一個因素"},{"start":3226.487,"end":3250.185,"text":"發覺怎麼樣?發覺這個投信公司跟網紅之間他是有一些商業上的連結但是網紅他並沒有去揭露他跟投信之間的關係有置入性行銷的這樣子的味道所以我不敢說是全部的因素但是網紅因為他有社會的一個某種程度的公信力他是有影響力的我覺得這可能是因素之一"},{"start":3252.385,"end":3266.263,"text":"主委就您的了解國內銀行定存利率最高是多少2點多那你認為股票配息會不會比定存好"},{"start":3268.564,"end":3295.507,"text":"要看買什麼股票不一定股票也有漲有跌因為月配息性質的ETF縱使金管會解釋說收益平準金的機制期待亂象降溫但是ETF難道不是與股票連動這個同步高低起伏嗎ETF如果是債券的話它當然有定期有配息股票其實是股利啦"},{"start":3296.192,"end":3320.971,"text":"那這個席這個字在用字上是有一點廣闊性的做法那當同時你配席越頻繁其實中間公司應該要讓投資人知道它的成本因為你配席有一些作業成本好 那我請問ETF是不是因為越配席而導致淨值折價乘5折的市價呢"},{"start":3323.351,"end":3337.425,"text":"報告委員我個人比較努動不太領導您的意思不過當然國人是比較喜歡這種定期能夠拿到一些配息的這種要是不是的話那難道不是比買股票還要好嗎"},{"start":3339.861,"end":3355.422,"text":"可是你的ETF是不是一定能夠你的成分股是不是一定都能夠上漲或能夠產生足夠的股利或是利息這個恐怕要看成分股的整個的漲跌才能夠決定ETF的整個的走勢"},{"start":3356.611,"end":3384.283,"text":"因為買股票會因為股價起伏的行情造成高買低賣而且恐怕連配息都無望反之啊如果月配息的ETF會折價五折那請問那些被選定這些優質成分股難道不是也會呈現崩跌的這種狀況嗎其實我跟您報告您剛剛指示的就好像"},{"start":3385.458,"end":3407.127,"text":"我們的基金也有很多宣示說這個基金有配息可是他會說他告訴你的這個績效也許是過去的績效但並不表示過去的績效會保證是未來的績效這個在基金的資訊上都有去揭露的我想ETF同樣也是如此並沒有說過去的績效可以保證未來的績效那更不用"},{"start":3408.889,"end":3434.151,"text":"說能夠有配息的這些機會主委事實上金管會要求網紅在行銷合規投信廣告行銷自律本席都覺得有其必要但比較金融商品的獲利差異化讓客戶自由選擇合一的商品來投資難道完全不行嗎"},{"start":3436.37,"end":3445.143,"text":"我們的立場跟委員是一致的各種金融商品是中性的但它有它的風險屬性重點是金融機構要把適合"},{"start":3446.451,"end":3472.41,"text":"投資人風險屬性的商品賣給投資人而不要誤導投資人我覺得這是重點我請請教齁四大基金到底有沒有買ETF有沒有我我不瞭解因為我沒有管四大基金因為這個應該要去了解一下請問主委你認為買上市櫃的股票能夠引進這個平準金的機制嗎"},{"start":3475.151,"end":3496.323,"text":"股票沒有什麼平準金的價值只有ETF創造了一個平準金的價值如果可以本席相信股票流通性應該也會像高息的ETF一樣活絡只是有可能嗎如果不可以那麼高息的ETF的風險難道不會比股票"},{"start":3497.759,"end":3498.68,"text":"金管會預估2024年台股日均量約有差不多3000億"},{"start":3528.016,"end":3537.883,"text":"今年過了兩個月臺股成交量似乎看起來是越來越熱那你認為有沒有股市特定族群這些類股過熱的情形狀況"},{"start":3540.595,"end":3561.332,"text":"大委員我們現在今年從年初到現在臺股每天的交易量平均是3700多億比去年同期大概提高了百分之好像去年2000提高百分之60左右我記得對不對是6成左右所以是有交易量是有大幅提高是"},{"start":3562.032,"end":3586.488,"text":"據瞭解臺灣ETF在1月規模破4兆元一年內增加差不多1.5兆近期元大投信發行的月月配息ETF更是民眾大家一窩蜂的去瘋搶那請問主委對於近期發行的ETF的申請狀況你認為到底有沒有異常的現象"},{"start":3588.035,"end":3612.692,"text":"報告委員最近就有兩檔那前面兩檔有一檔是金控有一檔是非金控那現在加上元大這一檔那我想因為這一檔上禮拜才募集告一段落那4月1號才要掛牌那我想我們會再瞭解這一檔有什麼特別的一些大家關心的問題那其他部分我想"},{"start":3613.755,"end":3633.674,"text":"今年我們的檢查也會把投信的ETF的發行銷售作為檢查的重點那個主委對ETF是不是目前台股量能的主力你說必須細部的去分析但是主委你說ETF是追蹤指數被動型的一個投資"},{"start":3635.518,"end":3655.147,"text":"或許穩健商品但是如果籌碼雜亂也就是散戶買、中時戶買、大戶也買甚至於外資熱錢都進來也參與一咖請問主委穩健的ETF到底有沒有變成風險金融商品的可能"},{"start":3656.327,"end":3685.248,"text":"會不會是委員您關心的重點非常非常重要謝謝您不過我們在報告第5頁上面有提到過整個的以臺股為標題的ETF的成交值跟股數占整個臺股只不過1%左右所以其實這個1其實基本上它的影響是可以被管理的是不大的這樣喔對ETF規模成長快速到底是正常的現象還是異常的現象依您看勒"},{"start":3686.943,"end":3712.844,"text":"我們的規模其實跟其他國家比是沒有那麼大但是我們近年的成長比率是比較高那我想這個部分有一部分因為可能國人對於未來這個理財的需求那另外其他國家的ETF比較不太常見像我們國人這種配息每月配息、季配息那這個部分可能是國人的"},{"start":3714.125,"end":3721.072,"text":"比較習慣喜歡的商品所以可能投核了國人的習性所以得到大家的喜好"},{"start":3721.772,"end":3749.15,"text":"因為從臺股ETF規模持續攀升至1兆5278億元以及最近的申購熱潮似乎有互制民國78年股市第一次上萬點和尚尼姑都進場的這種態勢也難怪央行總裁楊總裁對ETF申購熱提出羊群效應的示警"},{"start":3749.77,"end":3759.242,"text":"那根據政期局主秘表示啊ETF指數沉混股實際這個實際上是重目新高"},{"start":3760.952,"end":3781.501,"text":"當ETF檔數越來越多那成分股集中度集中度過高就是一大風險再加上金管會最擔心投資人實際上並不了解商品本質以及特性就殺出來投資甚至於出現信貸去借來申購"},{"start":3785.463,"end":3805.841,"text":"等等相對不理性的投資行為請問主委金管會對ETF的三大面向六大監理措施對於投資人恐怕如同灰而撲火一樣來申購ETF的行為能不能發揮冷靜踩煞車的效應您有什麼看法"},{"start":3806.542,"end":3825.484,"text":"我覺得我們的架構措施不是現在才做我們從去年年底就開始做我覺得我們對於怎麼樣讓投資人正確了解ETF的風險跟特質以及在行銷過程中不要誤導投資人去做了不正確的選擇這是我們努力的方向最後一點"},{"start":3828.28,"end":3846.542,"text":"雖然監理措施主委表示並不是認為ETF對臺股成交量可能有負面的影響所以說才出手但是本席希望不會發生像10多年前購買林董債商品的這個憾事而且去年年初開始明華"},{"start":3847.743,"end":3872.761,"text":"這個修改18歲的成年本席是希望金管會能夠提供並創造健全的投資環境給這些剛成年的青少年因為我最近有聽到很多他們都在談就在談ETF那不要進入了成年就面臨充滿險惡的這些投資環境猶如吸金詐騙一樣主委你認為金管會是不是應該要有這樣的一份擔當"},{"start":3873.962,"end":3878.364,"text":"委員這就是我們要做的謝謝您提醒我們好謝謝謝謝林鄭夫委員質詢接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":3902.583,"end":3930.952,"text":"委員長這位早齁這個跟你請教最近這個ETF它熱銷的原因你覺得主要是什麼我們的業者他知道國人喜歡這種配息的或是越配息的所以用這種商品來吸引投資人那中間加上一些行銷上我認為至少從檢查結果看出來行銷上的一些手法跟工會的廣告規範是有差異的"},{"start":3931.832,"end":3951.214,"text":"那國人也不見得完全清楚他買的ETF的性質因為很多績效是過去的不見得代表未來那發行ETF是特定的這一些投信公司嘛證券投信公司所以加速並不是很多啊如果你要加強管理應該不是很困難"},{"start":3952.492,"end":3963.96,"text":"是那剛剛有提到說用高股息這樣子的名稱基本上他如果用這樣的名稱就已經有誤導的成分在裡面了"},{"start":3965.547,"end":3989.785,"text":"會不會有這樣的感覺代委員其實我深有同感而且不只是這個商品委員您記不記得儲蓄型的保單也是去跟定存去比那現在這個投信的配息也是跟定存比我認為非常不當因為中文上面的這個高股息它本身就有一定的評價以這個為標的然後在這邊宣傳高股息不知道人一聽就說這個獲利很好"},{"start":3992.287,"end":4017.761,"text":"他就是會去誤會了說投資有賺有賠常常在看的那個警語再來就是如果發行的量很大那成分股又很集中因為臺灣的股市現在大部分的成交都全職也大部分都在電子類股那這個會不會高度集中他將來會造成助長助諜這樣的狀況"},{"start":4020.145,"end":4041.406,"text":"因為大家都一窩蜂嘛ETF也一窩蜂結果買的時候大家就都買同樣的股的成分股所以那些被選定為成分股的股票就漂漂漂一直漲嘛那這就是會變成一窩蜂的這個這個超大家集中然後說就超漲但是如果再變成熊市的時候"},{"start":4043.718,"end":4055.23,"text":"一直跌的時候那ETF為了人家要贖回啦為了要發股息等等他又跌賣所以是會變成超漲超跌的狀況你不覺得有可能有這樣的狀況嗎就股票市場而言"},{"start":4056.175,"end":4084.039,"text":"委員其實您是專家啦我講先從後面的先講你剛才講到那個如果股票漲跌會有贖回的那就是所謂的流動性的風險這部分在我們2月底的發布的參考國際組織所規範其實也就這個部分有做琢磨那另外也跟您報告目前整個的ETF48檔大概它涵蓋了成分股402家上市公司所以像是廣的但其中在"},{"start":4085.168,"end":4108.184,"text":"某一個上市公司超過一定比例的其實基本上都還有分散不過我們不能說以此就覺得不需要去注意我們還是要特別注意所以我們在報告中有提到請周邊單位要建立一個相關的整個市場面的監管機制現在的股票是OTC加進來加證交所總共多少張股票"},{"start":4109.773,"end":4127.324,"text":"一千八百多檔一千八百多檔裡面ETF只有選擇裡面的400多檔402檔402檔我認為這樣還是集中當然因為有很多的股票它本身的交易量不大你所謂的流動性的風險對於ETF購買的股票對象本身比較不會為什麼因為它都選擇這個市場上"},{"start":4130.026,"end":4156.551,"text":"交易比較熱絡的都會去投嘛如果你這個ETF是專門投那些冷門股的我想投資人如果了解一點的大概比較沒有興趣了因為它平常的交易量很低它將來如果要變現的時候要賣的時候流落性風險我講的是高度集中它反而有另外一種效果助漲助跌漲的時候本來假設它本來正常來講應該是漲50%因為大家高度投入一直投入的結果它漲了不止50%"},{"start":4157.971,"end":4178.948,"text":"疊的時候看壞的時候也會有這樣的狀況喔因為大家都賣然後他也加重賣壓所以要注意會有這樣子的風險存在有 先為委員提醒這也是為什麼我們要建立一個全市場的監視機制那當然因為ETF的成分股是完全透明的啦是他要做多做空其實是互相有抵銷的力量了解"},{"start":4179.528,"end":4208.488,"text":"另外你要記得以前曾經發生弊案是什麼樣的弊案政府的基金在選股上跟人家勾結產生ETF的發行有沒有會跟股票上市公司的管理階層這樣子選股上面變成他的成本裡面這裡面的這個選股的機制會不會也有大有文章的可能性我認為您的您的確非常專業其實這也是我們要注意的地方感謝提醒"},{"start":4208.868,"end":4227.228,"text":"那你的報告第8月我今天早上很認真給你讀了你說第8月的第二點說你們今晚會加強ETF的審查包括配息政策是否適當那倒過來就想請教你什麼樣子的配息政策會被你認為不適當有沒有什麼樣的案例"},{"start":4228.888,"end":4247.961,"text":"我覺得我待會也許肯政經局大審過的人來說明好沒關係可以來補充說明那個我的了解大概就是你的配息不得誇大不實那還有要跟沒有沒有這個是配息政策喔不是配息的廣告喔對政策是指我這一檔發行的時候"},{"start":4248.621,"end":4265.62,"text":"我就已經決定我將來是用什麼方式來配這個席包括是月配或是季配或是年配或是配的時候是要拿我得到的這個股息還是我要賣股票來配這個才是配席政策我請那個高副局長來補充"},{"start":4270.943,"end":4296.691,"text":"主要我們審大概會去考慮一下他配息主要的來源是哪裡然後配息的頻率那是不是跟他確實成分股比如說配息他所謂可以領到的息然後可以去支付類似這樣子的看能不能配比以上配比所以目前還沒有出現過你們認為不適當的案例嗎審查沒有通過是因為他的配息政策你們認為是不適當的有沒有這樣的案例"},{"start":4297.831,"end":4323.28,"text":"我們都會叫他說明那如果說明OK的話我們才會放行這樣的ETF發行所以你這個話在這邊講出去之後就是將來的配息如果出現問題你就要負責任了台灣的市場就是這樣賺到錢很少人會感謝政府但是賠錢所有人都怪政府主委我要提醒你臉書上面已經出現00940的自救會了你知道嗎"},{"start":4324.056,"end":4351.152,"text":"而且參加的會員有兩萬一千人還沒有上市去買股票他已經公開宣稱袁大發撿這個00940將來如果跌破變額他們就要集體上街抗議現在還沒有買股票他就已經做這樣的宣稱了所以我是覺得兩萬一千人目前是少如果真的賠錢參加的人會更多所以這個點不知道你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":4352.549,"end":4371.619,"text":"剛才副局長跟您報告就是審查他的配息那基本上還是要透過市場的檢視只是確定他有沒有過度的不能夠自圓其說至少要一個理由一個邏輯的理路了那至於說漲跌誰能管這個市場趨勢不是任何人能夠預估的"},{"start":4372.319,"end":4398.775,"text":"但是我剛剛就是跟你提醒說臉書上面Facebook上面已經出現00940的自救會的社團而且現在參加的會員已經有兩萬一千人了然後他公開宣稱00940將來上市之後如果跌破10元的面額他就要發起抗議那面對這個你要如何對社會大眾說明那這個臉書出現這樣的社團你有什麼樣的想法你可不可以跟我們大家說明一下"},{"start":4400.305,"end":4428.125,"text":"其實任何的商品都要充分的資訊介入那至於說成立這個社團我想我沒有特別的評論我想這是發行公司自己本身也要特別去注意怎麼樣去跟投資人充分的溝通不過但是主委他抗議對象不會是只有元大這個如果規模夠大抗議起來是整個社會動盪不是元大一間公司所以我的意思是說投資有賺有賠"},{"start":4430.14,"end":4446.135,"text":"充分的揭露這個都是該說明的大概大家都知道的原理問題是面對錢大家不這麼理性面對錢賺錢是應該的賠錢就是你們害我的一般人有的人會有這樣的想法那這個"},{"start":4447.304,"end":4473.982,"text":"我覺得這件事情如果沒有妥善處理沒有事先趕快想辦法更多的揭露請元大公司還有請這所有的這個要發行ETF的公司去重視這個要如何處理的話萬一將來有什麼散失會引起社會另外一波的不安我擔心的是這個我想這一點我想元大我的同仁應該也有多提醒元大我們也會特別注意謝謝對 那"},{"start":4475.697,"end":4496.045,"text":"我的意思是說這個不是只有元大的事今天00940會出現改天就會有00941、00942反正將來的媒體、黨標地都會這樣子這也是一種社會壓力但是這種壓力明顯的不當啊因為你還沒有投資在市場那天下還有哪一個市場是保證賺不賠的"},{"start":4497.614,"end":4517.346,"text":"所以我是覺得為這樣的心態感到很憂慮如何讓這樣的心態能夠有比較正常比較健康的想法是我們大家要努力的目標是 了解 謝謝委員那加油來我看到你們的報告其實寫得很完整還是可以繼續努力裡面要繼續落實好不好謝謝 謝謝謝謝吳秉銘委員的質詢接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":4528.683,"end":4532.406,"text":"感謝交委我可不可以請主委有請黃主委主委好辛苦了主委我還是要問一下這兩天在週末時間我們看到重大新聞包括星光人壽增資的問題我們看到星光人壽在這個週末之後最後決定再加碼125億撥補進來顯然的"},{"start":4558.527,"end":4566.212,"text":"看到主委之怒之後從原來的年初的首季撥補70億之後星光金撥補70億之後我們又看到這個再加碼125億主委你對於這個總共195億撥補進來星光金你覺得滿意嗎這個數字你滿意嗎"},{"start":4582.117,"end":4598.502,"text":"縣委委員我想我沒有震怒我有約談但是沒有生氣那我覺得顯然這個主委的提醒顯然是發揮作用對不對報委員我在1月30號新春記者會就已經提醒"},{"start":4600.37,"end":4621.407,"text":"改革團隊進入星光監控對星光監控資本的缺口主要股東要負主要的責任兩個禮拜前我在財委會也特別說6月底RBC到200是我的目標所以他們要達到這個目標主委那你覺得6月RBC他有沒有辦法達到200法定的200你現在他增資就算他上禮拜通過了125億增資還是沒辦法達到"},{"start":4625.071,"end":4653.75,"text":"所以你覺得6月你覺得他有可能達得到你的目標嗎你要求的目標我們還會繼續要求你還會繼續要求是還有其他具體的做法工具嗎我們會繼續要求或者是針對新光晶後續的體質改善你有沒有想法體質改善是改革團隊自己要去做的事情你有沒有什麼樣的建議我覺得我的想法很簡單3月4號在財委會跟各位委員報告就是RBC6月抵達到200其他免談"},{"start":4654.926,"end":4679.27,"text":"好 謝謝主委的回應我們看到主委的說法我想新光晶應該會聽到主委我接下來還是要肯定我們今天您的專案報告我覺得普惠金融這四個字我覺得在ETC上面我覺得我們看到金管會的努力整體我們現在在ETC裡面的資金總共大規模"},{"start":4679.73,"end":4705.171,"text":"大規模的成長達到4兆左右4兆1755億它大概佔了我們總共基金的投資將近6成這個讓所有的投資人有多元化資金配置的管理的機會這一點我是要給金管會肯定的但是主委你知道其實任何以我們吃食物來說我覺得均衡最好過於不急其實都是不健康的"},{"start":4706.132,"end":4720.668,"text":"主委你覺得我們現在的ETC內部的狀況因為這兩天包括前幾位委員都在講你買了沒你買了沒ETC00940你買了沒這是最近我們在臉書上或在很多廣告上看到的"},{"start":4721.289,"end":4733.314,"text":"你覺得它會不會過熱雖然我們現在ETC的總市值大概在臺灣大概只佔7%在全球包括在美國在其他歐洲國家大概其實都有10%到15%看起來沒有過熱的疑慮但是我們的五年複合成長率高達39%"},{"start":4743.338,"end":4753.427,"text":"這個是全世界最高的他的增幅比照去年這個時間大概增長了62.48%所以主委你覺得他是過熱嗎"},{"start":4755.56,"end":4779.911,"text":"你會擔心嗎?第一點我想我要表達我非常尊敬委員您問這個內容那麼的專業我非常尊敬而且很向您學習但是是不是過熱我想國人的確有足夠的存款想去做適度的投資那ETF這種商品相對來講由於其他的配息的設計也蠻吸引投資人的"},{"start":4780.791,"end":4809.51,"text":"但是我們關切的不是量多少而是創造那個量後面的銷售的過程資訊的揭露是不是完整的如果銷售的過程是沒有置入性的行銷沒有不當的比喻資訊充分揭露我覺得量不會那麼大主委我知道你有KPY跟KYC的歧視在裡頭但是如果不擔心過熱你為什麼要祭出六大措施就是說"},{"start":4810.39,"end":4823.227,"text":"我不知道你有沒有什麼叫做過熱什麼叫做你可以接受因為你現在回應在我們報告裡面你只有說投資熱絡這四個字來去形容所以剛才前一個委員吳委員才會講說未來有可能有自救會"},{"start":4826.43,"end":4848.892,"text":"但是我們政府難道能做的就只有KPY跟KYC嗎這是我第一個要提出的問題那當然你們有提出六大措施你們也擔心說他會不會過熱那是不是過熱你們會不會有一個評定的標準在還是他資金投入多少你們都不管你只有KPY跟KYC這樣的標準去提醒"},{"start":4849.69,"end":4869.973,"text":"目前兩天有媒體說金港會會不會限定這個募集的額度啊或是怎麼樣我們目前沒有這個打算我目前看到了尤其是從今年過去這五年的檢查包括年初的檢查發覺在廣告行銷上面還有配息的規範上面需要去做調整"},{"start":4871.804,"end":4887.759,"text":"所以你就只有這兩個策略而已沒有 我們後面還有整個在市場的監控上面後面講到的三點都有包括市場的監控對於整個的成分股對市場的影響有沒有集中度的問題這個我們會去處理"},{"start":4890.799,"end":4907.782,"text":"好 主委其實我們都擔心因為ETC聯動股市其實它熱絡有它熱絡的道理但是現在股市其實就是在最高點但是ETF它我們最大的隱憂有兩點我們都說雞蛋同時放在一個籃子裡不見得是好事但是ETF"},{"start":4908.683,"end":4929.189,"text":"他投資在一個他放在一個籃子裡但是籃子裡全部都還是一樣的東西這個也是我們現在會擔心說會出現成分股過度集中的問題這是我們現在第一個隱憂那第二個隱憂其實就是股市大漲了三天之後我們常常在講有一句話就是股市大漲三天之後很多散戶都跟得進來所以很多對於資訊"},{"start":4930.609,"end":4950.774,"text":"不夠充分了解對商品的資訊不夠了解或者是他到底承受風險的能耐度到底夠不夠這個是我們最大的擔心所以除了您剛才提到之外的這些包括加強ETF這些審查之外我們有沒有比較具體下一個階段你打算的做法"},{"start":4951.354,"end":4965.63,"text":"包括剛才吳秉瑞委員說未來有可能有次就會啊當他掉到一個程度的時候有可能就有次就會所以你除了現在這幾個具體的方式之外你還有沒有其他的做法準備著因應我想我們"},{"start":4966.371,"end":4983.432,"text":"今天是看大的制度跟方向了那我們看到了現在ETF的發展我們覺得不會因為現在這一檔就對ETF我覺得這是一個控國人可以去選擇的商品要提供這個商品重點是我們要強化它在銷售過程中不要有不當的行銷"},{"start":4984.093,"end":5005.212,"text":"主委你一直講同樣的話我知道你是強化資訊的賞名的認知還有承擔風險的能力那我就要具體的提醒你其實我覺得今晚會後續包括有幾個具體的做法可以做包括我覺得應該要有多種類多面向的投資方式比如說要有避險的工具在大家都想賣的時候我覺得當"},{"start":5007.674,"end":5037.054,"text":"市場到一個其實萬一大家都想賣的時候會對股市造成一定的衝擊所以我覺得如何健全市場的機制其實是相對重要的然後還有包括現在很多投資人他可能是拿定存解開定存來投資甚至是用槓桿的借錢的方式來投資我覺得這個對於很多的資訊揭露等等我覺得要有一個特別是對全新的股票的領域我覺得要有一定的承受能力我覺得這個也要在"},{"start":5037.774,"end":5038.735,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5056.764,"end":5079.462,"text":"所有的想投入股市的或者是他們更了解這些不同的投資的方向他們的承擔風險的能力這個是我要提醒的那最後主委這個是我的兩點建議但是主委我最後還是要提醒就是說我們現在股市到2萬點那在1月份的實質稅收我們達到2233億事實上在"},{"start":5085.407,"end":5111.866,"text":"股市在2月份連時紅那比較去年同一個時間點我們也增加了1.8倍那特別是前幾天我問了主計處的主計長我問他說股市大漲你開不開心他說他個人不開心因為他沒有玩股票但是身為這個主計長大掌櫃對於國家有這些稅收他是開心我想請問同樣的話我想請問主委現在股市一直漲你開不開心"},{"start":5114.062,"end":5118.12,"text":"我想只要是反映市場機制我們尊重我們沒有什麼喜怒"},{"start":5120.922,"end":5149.181,"text":"熱錢主委你也很開心我這樣的想法是你都不去管市場的機制你讓市場連的走他是反映整個市場的交易我想我們提供的就是一個健全的環境那交易的劑量跟量由市場去決定我覺得央行的總裁可能會很擔心因為資金氾濫錢熱錢來的快去的也快但是如果主委沒有想法沒有憂心的話那我覺得我個人會很擔心"},{"start":5150.962,"end":5178.074,"text":"主委您了解我的意思嗎熱錢來得快去得快你如果沒有在當然尊重市場機制但是如果沒有一些手段或者是做一些更多內部的管理溝通的話我覺得市場一旦有變化的時候你還順著市場機制在走我覺得你開心恐怕我覺得我會很憂心主委沒有憂心的話我覺得我會很擔心"},{"start":5179.349,"end":5205.077,"text":"主委您了解我的意思嗎這個ETF是成分股我覺得主委我強調不只是ETF因為它是跟著整個市場股市的結果在連動所以我才問說股市漲到2萬點你開不開心報告委員股市漲到2萬點有它的基本面因為過去一年AI股、半導體股這是我們的基本面只要有基本面我覺得就是反映我們的經濟的結構"},{"start":5206.687,"end":5224.905,"text":"但是主委我還是要提醒你啊那個股市的變化投資人熱錢來得快去得也快但是我今天本來還有其他問題要一起問您跟央行總裁但沒關係我留著下次再繼續問是謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝委員指導謝謝好謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":5239.053,"end":5243.976,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請金管委的黃主委有請黃主委是委員好主委早那麼這個今天討論ETF其實我再講我的感想我先看一下在國發會二月底"},{"start":5263.598,"end":5285.625,"text":"有一份的一個報告講出來臺灣的經濟自由度全球排名第4名相當自由這個很活潑的臺灣的經濟可是財務自由度只有40第40名投資自由度39名"},{"start":5288.322,"end":5316.671,"text":"就代表我們的財務我們的投資不自由我們經濟很自由我們的投資很不自由在全世界你看排名第40名啊大家都知道臺灣的經貿實力雖然臺灣很小但是很粗略的講我們臺灣的經貿實力在全世界排名大概第15、16、17左右是相當前面的結果自由度掉到40啊"},{"start":5319.127,"end":5330.701,"text":"這個講起來很丟臉喔這裡面跟我們軍管會有太多的禁止這個管這個管那個有關係喔你要不要對這個做個回應呢"},{"start":5332.639,"end":5351.166,"text":"委員如果您是說中間那邊講我們禁止目前不允許副委託買比特幣現貨不是我現在跟你講這個還沒講到這個我現在跟你講自由度你要不要回應一下就人家說我們這裡投資自由度稍微高財務自由度細佔這個不見得講金管會"},{"start":5355.814,"end":5357.795,"text":"好我跟您報告第一個"},{"start":5386.414,"end":5406.041,"text":"美國證管會把比特幣當作有價證券但是臺灣的證交法比特幣是不是有價證券其實是不確定的那另外跟您報告我為什麼剛才離開備質詢臺這份是美國1月10號美國證管會他同意比特幣現貨交易的一個新聞稿"},{"start":5407.113,"end":5422.794,"text":"最後一段話美國的政委會主席Gary Gensler說我同意他上市那是因為法院駁回他不准他上市並不表示我indose或是我prove比特幣的性質這是美國政委會的說明我再跟你告告"},{"start":5423.996,"end":5434.21,"text":"南韓、新加坡、泰國都不允許投資人買比特幣這邊還有一檔美國的Manga也不許交易你不要那麼激動來 我跟你講一個你的很重要的理由當初你今天一直沒有講這個東西因為它沒有實體"},{"start":5439.807,"end":5453.686,"text":"他沒有含價值對對好那我就問你現在美國已經有會上市的公開發行的OpenAI已經快要上市了請問OpenAI你可不可以以後會不會禁止"},{"start":5455.009,"end":5456.089,"text":"這兩個是類比不太一樣吧委員我跟您報告齁"},{"start":5480.959,"end":5507.054,"text":"我們一月初美國上市現貨ETF政企局是請券商公會先不要接受這種買單復委託而是研擬配套措施看可不可以有適當的措施等到4月底以後再做決定什麼時候決定4月底以後就決定配套措施ETF要不要包括比特幣是不是不是復委託要不要涵蓋美國的現貨ETF的商品"},{"start":5507.861,"end":5510.523,"text":"國發會這樣的一個報告你的認知居然跟我認知完全不一樣"},{"start":5524.875,"end":5548.532,"text":"如果今天我是你啊我一定要去檢討為什麼我進口做了哪些事情為什麼投資自由度這麼低在全球排39名財務自由度排40名我們看到ETF我記得我請問ETF最早什麼時候發行臺灣最早第一檔的ETFETF92年臺灣92年"},{"start":5554.247,"end":5575.933,"text":"2003年美國最早什麼時候82年吧1992所以跟美國足足差了10年對ETF我聽到的ETF是我們歷任的金管會主委都不斷的鼓勵大家多買ETF因為風險分散啊因為有專業人幫你看啊"},{"start":5577.677,"end":5588.371,"text":"曾幾何時什麼變了ETF變成今天拍這個專案報告都感覺ETF有點像過街老鼠一樣啊怎麼曾幾何時變成大家怕ETF怕到這個樣子"},{"start":5590.216,"end":5612.214,"text":"那個那個主委啊到底是管ETF還是你就是管他的促銷手段比如說網紅接廣告到底是什麼今天您這個問題我很感謝您問這個問題這就是重點我們從頭到尾過去這個禮拜都沒有說要限制ETF沒有這是一個商品適合國民去投資鼓勵不鼓勵你告訴我"},{"start":5614.716,"end":5630.551,"text":"沒有什麼鼓勵鼓勵你發行就鼓勵啊我們也有來一個我們在這裡我請教過你啊我說了應該來一個加薪50或者加薪100鼓勵這些上市公司加薪的我就給你放進來我們有類似的指數啊有類似的指數你沒有加薪100啊有嗎"},{"start":5635.987,"end":5639.25,"text":"我得到的訊息是其實ETF它本身沒有問題"},{"start":5660.828,"end":5684.91,"text":"本身是幫老百姓當投資股民風險分散幫你挑一些好的股物有特性的股可是現在問題來了因為這些網紅啊亂吹牛一通哦 還一定有8點多趴啦然後呢每個月還配息等等的所以為了配息可能如果同時的話ETF 有些的ETF沒有"},{"start":5685.851,"end":5693.067,"text":"沒有講好但是有默契大家都lock住那個股票第一個他駐倉啊或者一個駐地啊變成這個樣子啊會不會"},{"start":5695.311,"end":5722.647,"text":"委員您是專家您講的是對的啊就是他沒有充分介入這個商品的風險也在很多商品的條件上有誤導的情況比方說把配息跟存款的利率銹相比較或者說過去的跡象拿來預測未來也會如此這是要提醒我我我我你最實際的有網絡說你可以把你的房子拿去抵押來來買ETF這樣的講法你認不認同"},{"start":5724.67,"end":5745.762,"text":"那是很風險很高的為什麼因為ETF的成分股漲跌也不是發行的投信能決定的還是要看市場的機制所以過去漲不表示未來一定會漲我的時間快到了趕快把重點我還有個重點要問那個副總裁一起來好不好這個時間暫停一下來有請副總裁"},{"start":5748.001,"end":5771.23,"text":"公平會在去年2月已經對網路網紅的廣告不時要罰5萬到2500萬因為網紅不是賣家他是代言人要負責任的結果金管會現在你可以看到對投信的管理很嚴格可是對這網紅你們好像沒有皮條啊會不會對網紅這一部分來來來主委網紅推薦買ETF到處都是你們有沒有處置辦法"},{"start":5778.973,"end":5791.762,"text":"拜委員我可不可以 如果我說錯了你可以指導我好像是3月8號才規範的 不是去年2月吧沒有 去年2月就規範了好 沒關係 沒關係去年有再修正了也許"},{"start":5794.349,"end":5818.076,"text":"我們111年就有規範要加注警語那這樣實踐上面可能有些公司並沒有真正照那個廣告公會的廣告你們要不要去取締一些講這些話講得誇大的網紅有沒有這個工具我們正在思考那公平會雖然有一個寄出這個高額罰款的這個但是還是要有一個機制怎麼去檢舉那要有事證"},{"start":5819.136,"end":5833.408,"text":"那這部分我們想跟工會再去做一個溝通現在我們報告中有寫到6月底之前我們會把這個規範弄好好 我請教冤枉的副總裁日本結束負利率"},{"start":5834.727,"end":5862.697,"text":"外面的估算因為日本央行明天開會澳洲後天開會澳洲是明天3月19然後臺灣我們是21號開會俄羅斯20號開會全世界現在面對到幾乎所有金融商品都在漲的情況之下請問你現在現在來講央行未來的利率走向是怎麼樣"},{"start":5866.916,"end":5883.263,"text":"報告委員因為傳統上我們每一次開會之前我們都會針對當前的國內外經濟金融情勢以及未來的發展做評估所以其實您提到這些不管是它的日本或者其他央行的貨幣政策是我們隨時在關注的"},{"start":5884.451,"end":5900.332,"text":"其他國家的央行現在就是利率他們是偏要漲還是要跌還是那個那個報告委員因為各國的國情不一樣所以我們很難用其他國家例子來銀行台灣現在錢有太多嗎錢有太多嗎"},{"start":5902.486,"end":5925.689,"text":"根據我們剛才的報告銀行的那個資金其實我們在整個NCD的操作或者是銀行的那個超額準備那邊其實是在銀行端其實我們看不到這樣的現象而且我們其實內部也有一些指標在注意到國內金融市場的變動情形所以我們閒置的貨幣有3點多兆不會太多"},{"start":5927.633,"end":5935.235,"text":"呃...我不曉得那個3點多兆您的意思是...以前是2點多兆現在變3點多兆了啊呃...我剛才...超額儲蓄啦!超額儲蓄!會不會太多?呃...我還是不太了解委員那個數字是...是講的是哪一個...沒有這個事嗎?那你告訴我現在超額儲蓄多少?你...臺灣的現在超額儲蓄有多少錢?"},{"start":5956.126,"end":5967.213,"text":"呃...我們這邊有一個圖嘛那個...應該...有...有多少?你要講...講...你有時間到你趕快講吧三...呃...三點...三點八三點...呃..."},{"start":5979.62,"end":5979.78,"text":"熱錢多少?熱錢"},{"start":5997.377,"end":6018.655,"text":"熱錢我們我們並沒有我們並沒有定義所謂的熱錢熱錢是金融機構他之間的那個資金的流動和調動那個黃主委熱情的這個那個流量部分可能只有央行央行知道啊怎麼不知道你來副總裁跟我講一下我就跟主席換一下來"},{"start":6020.943,"end":6040.6,"text":"熱錢我們過去就是你出去多少金買多少然後這些短時間留了在這裡股票買買就出去這個熱錢我們所謂的熱錢就是外資在還沒有賣完股票之前有一段時間停留在臺灣的數字那個是多少那個我印象中大概都是一千多億而已美金還是臺幣臺幣臺幣一千多億到現在為止"},{"start":6046.846,"end":6062.113,"text":"這個其實我再補充一下你講的那個3.3億的超額儲蓄其實是在3.3兆3.3兆那其實在銀行體系金融體系裡面散布在各個金融機構的那個資金的運用情形好 謝謝賴時保委員的質詢謝謝委員好 下面我們請國公委員質詢請"},{"start":6076.786,"end":6083.204,"text":"謝謝主席我請黃天牧主委以及我們的這個嚴副總裁副總裁請"},{"start":6091.652,"end":6118.672,"text":"主委兩位我今天排這個主題其實重點其實在於游資過多那ETF是一個游資過多一個很重要的一個投資工具那我看那個黃天牧主委的報告當中都針對ETF並沒有針對游資過多如何做一個適當的引導以避免流向房市那導致央行這邊的報告是比較有接近這個主題"},{"start":6120.311,"end":6146.144,"text":"剛剛在立法委員在討論這個超額儲蓄是確實一個大問題去年是3.31今年已經預估是3.84兆剛剛央行的報告當中一直強調跟銀行端之間的互動沒有所謂的這個資金過剩的問題可是問題是民間的資金確實是有過剩的現象否則不會有ETF這一種投資的一個熱潮最關鍵的原因是在這裡頭要跟大家討論的這個部分"},{"start":6147.685,"end":6175.457,"text":"然後在後續的這個討論當中我必須做一個提醒因為央行這個禮拜四這個副總裁禮拜四的部分已經要開禮監事會議本週是央行週看臺灣的這個金錢的流入經過這個地緣政治還有包括相關的因素導致回來的臺商的回流資金的專利已經高達3000多億而這5年之內不能投入房地產25%只能進入這個股市的部分已經要解限了"},{"start":6176.717,"end":6183.064,"text":"這個我請問一下副總長你有沒有注意到這個訊息也就是8月的時候我們有更多的資金會投入這一個民間的一個游資當中欸副總長"},{"start":6186.352,"end":6209.098,"text":"那個報告委員我想這個問題還是歸咎於跟我們的那個過去幾年的經常在順差大幅度順差有很大的關係對你來解釋原因但是我問題是要解決問題嘛就游資過多你有沒有什麼政策工具來可以做引導而不是用定存利率的部分跟銀行間之間往來而已嘛就是說禮拜四要嚴重要去面對的問題是現在這種狀況大家擔心的問題嘛"},{"start":6213.973,"end":6219.639,"text":"因為我們的政策工具我們會考慮到整個金融市場的變動情形所以"},{"start":6222.386,"end":6244.193,"text":"委員講的這個3.8兆或3.31兆我先來是做一個慎重的提醒在禮拜四的理監事會議的時候有些諸多的現象以及未來是跟現在狀況裡頭所造成的一個社會影響的影響我再舉其中一個例子就好為什麼最近的ETF熱會如此的一個瘋狂原因在哪裡為什麼會很解除定存"},{"start":6244.853,"end":6259.606,"text":"因為平均的定存利率來說我抓過五大銀行三期的定存率才1.594%而已我們通膨基本上是高達2.53%事實上你現在放在銀行裡的一個定存組基本上簡直是負利率"},{"start":6261.187,"end":6285.284,"text":"基本上是負利率的情況底下他有一個比較好的認為比較放心的金融商品的話他當然相對會投資啊可是你看看我們總裁楊總裁說會有羊群效應接下來就像黃天牧總裁黃天牧主委黃天牧主委講什麼主委你不斷地示警然後呢你還要動用精檢然後不斷地警告投資人這個東西過熱主委老師說齁"},{"start":6288.746,"end":6310.482,"text":"明明你也剛剛在報告當中講得非常清楚它是透明度高分散風險而且基本上又可以適合長期持有的投資標的那為什麼會動用這麼多恫嚇的言詞呢好像投資ETF是一個高風險的投資商品一樣主委"},{"start":6311.53,"end":6327.668,"text":"委員謝謝我先要感謝趙偉安排這樣一個專案報告讓我們可以跟大家做一個說明其實我的重點ETF商品是中性的重點是你要銷售給適合那個風險承受的人而且資訊要說清楚問題是"},{"start":6329.87,"end":6351.952,"text":"我們在日常監理跟檢查發現很多投信在ETF的銷售過程中沒有適度的讓投資人瞭解這檔商品的正確的資訊還有它在追蹤指數的時候有些地方也是有一些地方是需要去被改進的所以你警告了主委不好意思我跟你打岔你警告的對象是應該是投信公司啊而不是投資人啊"},{"start":6352.392,"end":6371.845,"text":"您好像在恫嚇投資人說這個股票這個ETF的這個基金股票型的指數型的投票股票基金這樣子下去的話會充分高風險沒有 報告委員有兩面投信公司要了解客戶客戶也要了解那個商品但了解商品投信公司有責任要告訴客戶你買的是什麼商品是"},{"start":6372.185,"end":6397.631,"text":"他所標榜的配息是怎麼配的他的來源從哪裡評準金的規範有沒有確實去做這些其實都是我們要日常監理的重點其實主委您的報告當中寫得非常清楚我想是有過度集中的問題標的過度集中的問題沒有錯但是你提出來一個新的一種方式依照目前的這個ETF的主流是在這種被動型的你所謂開放這個所謂主動型的"},{"start":6398.511,"end":6420.241,"text":"這個主動型的這一種ETF的話基本上是放任或者是過度新任基金經理人的可能性都存在啊過往的基金經理人依照你最近處罰的對象就是富邦、保德性這跟單的問題還有包括漢亞投信有抬轎炒股的問題等等基金經理人基本上還會出現這種問題喔"},{"start":6422.95,"end":6441.127,"text":"那以照如果是以從主動型跟被動型目前為止ETF以落後指標來說反而透明度更高啊更能夠值得安心就值得相信啊讓投資人更能夠看得到的情況底下那你去推主動型老實說有真的能夠分攤到風險嗎我是覺得很失意啊"},{"start":6442.895,"end":6471.561,"text":"報告委員這個商品也是因為國外有主動型所以業者這方面也希望我們能夠有一些機會所以大家還在研究中並沒有到最後的階段可能到今年六七月以後我不是說業者講你就要聽嘛我有耳聞嘛有些業者去跟你拉比嘛但是呢基本上哪一種對投資人比較好我們應該對這個部分來去做Promote才對而不是說每一種不同的國外的商品拿進來拿進來之後風險更高不是造成我們更大的困擾嗎"},{"start":6472.521,"end":6500.128,"text":"委員您的指示我們一定會納入這次商評審整個考慮的參考講白一點被動型的部分你要說用主動型的部分現在基金都主動型是差別沒有股票化而已啊不是嗎然後另外的部分呢以照目前的這個數字來看齁如果看到現在的這個比例啊ETF的佔比您的報告裡頭佔整體的股市也不過是2.38%而已而交易量啊也不到1%欸"},{"start":6501.528,"end":6520.212,"text":"也就是說所有的投資人在這個行為上他也知道是長期持有所以交易量相對於這個佔比來說是低很多嘛不是嗎主委所以他的交易量其實是可以被管理的只有1%左右對啊如果是這樣子的情況底下也就是說目前所謂的這個ETF的投資啊雖然"},{"start":6520.672,"end":6549.492,"text":"比例上成長速度很快你剛剛只有講到一個重點是比例上成長很快並沒有造成那麼高的風險可是呢被你們動用這麼多的名詞跟手段然後變成是一個很像高風險的一個投資商品如果是這種情況底下老實講本席是很擔心啊因為市場的游資過多的情況底下你現在沒有一個比較適合的投資標的好不容易有一個ETF反而被你這種阻絕情況底下還所謂的要祭出什麼投資上限"},{"start":6550.293,"end":6566.69,"text":"主委你如果說投資海外的ETF你有投資上限那本席也就認了就是因為那有一個不確定的風險存在那國內的這種被動型的這個投資ETF基本上都會揭露它過去的成效多少如果不好的話它就替換掉"},{"start":6567.911,"end":6591.886,"text":"這種情況底下你真的還需要進行設限嗎委員特別跟您報告我們從頭到尾都沒有提要設限我今天談到的沒有任何量的限制只有希望在銷售過程中能夠讓投資人正確了解他的資訊跟商品的信息所以只有加強資訊揭露並沒有刻意要打壓目前的ETF說要進行所謂的上限的限制有沒有"},{"start":6591.946,"end":6618.276,"text":"沒有,委員我們的報告沒有這種論點出現沒有,我是看到新聞有寫而且你們還有出來發言就是有這樣的新聞報導我特別要感謝您給我這個機會說明所以我記得明明非常清楚主委你20週年慶的時候ETF20週年慶博覽會的時候你還有站在蔡英文總統旁邊而且強調這個ETF透明度高分散風險適合長期投資等等"},{"start":6621.824,"end":6629.551,"text":"講白一點你們這個肌膚通基本上也是在做這個事情啊跟這也是分散風險是一樣的啊不是嗎"},{"start":6630.749,"end":6652.015,"text":"可是問題就是他現在標榜的這些配息這些東西有沒有讓投資人真的瞭解那個配息的本質平準金的規範是不是都瞭解主委我說今天特別提這一題你要去強調現階段的ETF並沒有你們剛剛所做的那個行政手段裡頭的那麼高風險的存在這會造成外界的誤導啦"},{"start":6653.435,"end":6676.281,"text":"各位委員也許我們我不曉得如果給您造成誤會跟您致歉我們的報告的主旨沒有這個意思強在都是網紅啊還有集中度這些可能大家顧慮的事情適當的做一個澄清啦但是我認為主委你現在最需要做的是什麼就是說這個資金過度本行要說盡量不要流到其他的這一種炒房的這種現象的情況底下你還有沒有其他的作為啊"},{"start":6677.401,"end":6702.082,"text":"就是說風險懸殊的部分其實在您的手中當中銀行局的部分有沒有去思考一下有沒有調高的可能性呢?高委員其實我們配合央行的穩定房價的包括行政院的政策我們在兩年前的1月初就已經對於央行選擇性信用管制的一些受限的標題提高了風險懸殊了所以你們有提高但是問題呢資本的集中度還是不斷的提高啊"},{"start":6702.682,"end":6705.563,"text":"但是在整個列管的過程當中我們還是有看到這一個落網之魚"},{"start":6721.05,"end":6745.684,"text":"就是包括融資公司的部分透過銀行來借貸的部分而形成這一個資本其中的堆高的現象我跟您報告融資公司部分對於幾家上市公司我們都有約談過也會透過上市公司的內控還有我們將來會透過它的融資的金融機構去了解兩年前的風險技術的提高是否需要再提高請主委回去好好慎重思考一下好不好"},{"start":6747.715,"end":6768.852,"text":"其實已經提高,風險權數已經提的蠻高的了提的蠻高的,不需要再提了短期內我想我們還是維持跟央行這整個金融機構的部分對,其實兩年前已經提的蠻高的那次提高業者其實都有覺得蠻高的了我們看情況好不好,後續再來追問,謝謝"},{"start":6771.65,"end":6776.834,"text":"好 謝謝國共委員的質詢 下一位請賴慧媛委員質詢請謝謝主席 有請那個黃天牧主委還有我們央行副總裁"},{"start":6795.586,"end":6809.196,"text":"是委員長是主委副總裁早安我想今天我們針對的ETF這一個熱賣高股息的一個產品來跟那個主委跟副總裁做一個討論在這裡請教就是說"},{"start":6812.678,"end":6826.692,"text":"我們總裁我們從1993年就是世界第一支ETF上市了以後一直到現在2024就是現在大家最幸運的密碼00940 00939三個人裡頭就有一個人在買ETF"},{"start":6832.958,"end":6847.788,"text":"那我在這裡就是要跟我們的主委討論一下ETF的一個熱烈除了政策開放的程度有關那也跟現今的台股的市場的狀況有一個相關性你認同嗎"},{"start":6849.168,"end":6870.293,"text":"對委員您這個推論是我覺得是相當專業因為最近臺股長得比較多所以大家覺得聯動臺股的ETF可能未來獲利可期可能有這種期待獲利可期那其實在緩間上有特別提到了一點就是說這次臺股破了2萬點"},{"start":6871.613,"end":6896.491,"text":"幕後有真正的兩大主因一個是台積電的一個漲幅一個就是ETF的一個這個投入那你認為這樣子的一個分析有沒有道理的確台積電在過去台股中不論市值跟價來講它有一個比較主要的一個影響力這是沒有錯的對那ETF呢"},{"start":6897.932,"end":6903.477,"text":"那為什麼會有三個人裡頭就有一個人其實是有買ETF的現在的市場性存在的就是這樣的一個問題主委我想請教你一下"},{"start":6920.951,"end":6949.576,"text":"就是我們的ETF裡頭你知道有多少股息是怎麼算出來的我們就是金管會有沒有去算這些問題委員這就是我們在今年年初對於投信的評準金來配息中間有些地方不透明或是覺得不太合理的地方我們要求訂規範所以這個部分就是要讓投資人所以金管會有沒有去分配就是分析這個配息的這個成分比呢"},{"start":6951.072,"end":6973.433,"text":"你已經覺得不對了嘛不是不對而是說你不能拿投資人的錢然後配給自己說這是你的配息這個不好是我想主委你已經講出了一個重點你拿投資人的錢然後就是配息再次用我自己的錢然後你還收了我的管理費是不是這個樣子呢"},{"start":6975.383,"end":7000.455,"text":"那你的廣告廣告裡頭你看他們講了說業業配、記記配收多少、配多少拿了自己的錢叫做配息嗎?有沒有這個?不知道委員這個話也因為他還是有一些是他的成分股的股利或是債券的息只是說中間是不是有自己的錢在裡面我覺得這個要讓投資人清楚"},{"start":7001.115,"end":7018.352,"text":"所以你有沒有就是去讓投資人清楚這些問題呢有 報告員我們在報告中有我們報告中第8頁就有講到第7、第8都有講到我們對於收益評選金的分配的這些原則還有配息的審查跟資訊的揭露都有在做處理"},{"start":7019.153,"end":7041.439,"text":"可是如果大家有去注意到這些的問題的時候我想今天我們大家就不會每一個委員跟你做的一個建議都是真正的提出了一個公開資訊觀測站這個消費者誰會看我們每一個委員都是告訴你說金管會你要要求就是所有的業者的廣告要收清楚"},{"start":7042.319,"end":7065.039,"text":"那我們也知道說ETF的商品的一個利得它其實就是來自於三個面向我的資本利得、我的評準金、我的真正收到的一個股息可是問題就是說我這些還是你們還是這些業者還是用我的錢在分配我的股息啊那你要正視這些問題啊"},{"start":7066.502,"end":7084.92,"text":"有所以我們有在今年年初有訂了收益評準金的分配原則而且將來也會透過日常監理或是說檢查瞭解這些評準金分配原則是不是有被忠實的執行我想那個主委你看齁我這一頁的一個那個"},{"start":7086.502,"end":7087.504,"text":"那在下一頁在下一頁"},{"start":7099.946,"end":7117.122,"text":"就是說你的廣告怎麼去管ETF的熱賣是不是因為廣告的手法他特別的吸金所以就是說很多人他已經解除定存了這個是跟央行的一個關係跟金融這個就是我們金管會其實在"},{"start":7117.842,"end":7136.717,"text":"行政的一個前者裡頭是沒有關係的可是我要特別提醒你有沒有去管這個廣告手法這個廣告手法你看講了就是鄭建山喊咖又一家這個600億、500億喊了每一個人就覺得說哇我如果在現在的一個投資的一個市場裡頭我沒有去買00、00"},{"start":7143.175,"end":7161.553,"text":"940對你看你都比我記得還清楚00939對不對這樣很漏氣了沒有跟上時代的潮流那怎麼辦呢你儘管會對這些投信的投顧業者的一個銷售的ETF的一個廣告有什麼具體的法規有沒有具體的法規"},{"start":7162.173,"end":7176.866,"text":"其實我們以往對於投信業者在商品的廣告都要送到工會去審的那前年開始也針對網紅提請他注意但是這幾波看起來因為網紅有的不是投信直接跟他簽約透過行銷公司跟他簽約"},{"start":7177.927,"end":7194.609,"text":"所以網紅其實他後面可能是跟投信有關係可是在做宣導的時候他沒有說他是跟投信有關係所以有一種置入性行銷的味道那這些可能他在手法上比方說他拿這個配息跟定存比那這些都是不太妥當的"},{"start":7196.07,"end":7223.676,"text":"主委你已經看到了不太妥當了這個其實業者有沒有違反那個自立的一個規範那你們怎麼樣去處分我想就是說會後請你提供給我資料那再來我想再請教就是主委就是說在我們所有的公司裡頭有沒有哪一家公司還是有哪些公司就是說他是每一季配股息的"},{"start":7226.098,"end":7251.343,"text":"呃 我知道有幾家公司但是哪幾家我好像不需要我會後跟您報告因為我不用替這幾家公司不論是我跟你講齁 主委就是每一季配股息的就只有台積電報告 你是說台積電我以為是投信公司不好意思不是投信公司你已經不能站在這個地方一直幫投信公司打廣告了"},{"start":7252.944,"end":7267.842,"text":"對 我現在講的是公司哪一家公司所以我就想說針對業者的配息的一個問題ETF會不會變成了一個龐氏的騙局你有沒有想過這樣的一個問題"},{"start":7270.051,"end":7288.968,"text":"其實這也是為什麼我們對於收益評準金它的內涵是什麼它如何去操作如何分配一定要弄清楚不要讓投資人被誤導這是我們的重點對這個就是我們大家的一個社會責任嘛對不對所以我在想說你給我的8%可能有一半是我的錢啊"},{"start":7290.464,"end":7319.103,"text":"是我的錢啊所以你這個我想配息你必須要把配息的一個比例講得更清楚一點那你甚至要做更多的一個約束更多的一個宣傳甚至就是說針對業者他的配息的問題還有他的廣告的一個問題不管是在網路上的一個行銷剛才我看你的報告裡頭你寫得很好可是問題就是說在執行面有沒有真正的執行有沒有真正的落實這是一個"},{"start":7320.884,"end":7342.977,"text":"嚴肅的一個問題謝謝主委那接著我請那個央行總裁就是副總裁我想就是說就是在之前就是你針對00940掀起了空前的一個搶購的一個熱潮這個總裁特別就是示警大家要小心陽晴效應為什麼會這樣子講來副總裁"},{"start":7347.605,"end":7374.438,"text":"我想楊總裁可能看到就是說因為過去的臺灣的金融市場偶爾會出現大家一窩蜂的現象他提出只是這樣所以你在警告大家嘛對不對你在警告這些投資業的這些羊群就是說你們千萬要小心這一塊草坪如果你吃不到草了你千萬不要往就是有狼群最後的這個草坪前進是不是這樣子"},{"start":7375.953,"end":7398.34,"text":"大概你們的意思就是這樣子嘛是不是我看起來是是的可是你有沒有想到央行會不會就是這一群領頭羊呢這一群羊群的領頭羊呢為什麼因為事實上就是說實質的總薪資一直在下跌定存利率也趕不上通盤"},{"start":7399.46,"end":7415.689,"text":"我的選區裡頭太多退休的老人他們的利息太薄了那央行有沒有想到就是用什麼樣的一個方法然後可以去改善就是實質的負利率呢?副總裁你怎麼看勒?"},{"start":7416.277,"end":7441.876,"text":"那個報告委員維持金融穩定是央行的職責所以您剛才講那個央行是帶頭那個羊我覺得那是有一點點問題的說法這個是不對的金融穩定是我們的職責對那你有沒有穩定啊因為你利息一直都你的利息就是一直這麼低啊你沒有提升你的利息啊所以你看啊每一個人這個報告委員這是一個長期的問題"},{"start":7444.237,"end":7463.979,"text":"包括我們資金過多的造成我們整個社會這是一個長期問題資金過多這個是好事啊你央行你就是要分配啊你怎麼分配他呢所以你不認同我說你是領頭羊領頭羊通常就是最棒的可是我們要做一個實質上的一個最好的"},{"start":7464.96,"end":7477.606,"text":"我想那個實質利率或者是低薪的問題也都是我們長期在關注的問題我想我們在貨幣政策的時候也會考慮到這些問題的存在好 謝謝副總裁好 謝謝戴惠文的質詢謝謝我們請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員質詢後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":7492.714,"end":7512.99,"text":"主席各人處理的習慣大家好主席可不可以請黃主委然後等一下再請央行以及證券交易所還有請黃主委陳董事長招委長交易所董事長去招商去了請另外一位陳董陳永誠櫃買中心陳董事長主委我想請教一下"},{"start":7522.759,"end":7543.733,"text":"那ETF究竟它是什麼形式從什麼時候開始在臺灣來募集來販售那一般的民眾小白可不可以下去買最少的單位是大概要多少錢"},{"start":7546.141,"end":7563.564,"text":"我想ETF我們的介紹應該在第一頁都有說臺灣是92年開始第一檔ETF那到現在發展起來大概有48檔大概以股票為標的ETF大概一兆四五千億左右總共現在加起來的規模是多少"},{"start":7565.151,"end":7593.158,"text":"加上債券應該差不多4兆左右有4兆多那我們看到網紅在上面講說這是可以打敗定存的那請問主委你有沒有買我沒有買現在定存的利率是多少好像1.56%吧我想最高應該不到2%我沒有特別注意如果說不到2%的話然後ETF會不會倒會不會倒"},{"start":7595.137,"end":7623.856,"text":"要看什麼ETF如果各位記得那個2020年有一個反向槓桿反向後來也因為它的追蹤的標底的問題但是股票部分其實我這邊也有報告風險風險其實這都是風險之一只是相對它的發展機率大不大一般的民眾都不了解特別那麼亮麗的宣傳唯一可以打敗定存的"},{"start":7624.761,"end":7633.71,"text":"哇!好像跟神一樣因為這一次的情況是這樣很多人都沒有買到台積電主任你有買到台積電嗎?"},{"start":7635.578,"end":7663.729,"text":"我什麼都沒有所以我周邊很多人都沒有特別是小白好緊張無所適從所以很多人定存族存在銀行的老本五百萬、一千萬全部趕快解約甚至連房子沒有貸款趕快去做信貸趕快去執押貸款"},{"start":7664.4,"end":7693.428,"text":"拼啦大家一窩蜂最後一次機會啊臺積電都錯過了ETF不能再錯過啊因為這些人的恐懼跟驚慌主任你是不懂他們的心的法委員臺積電也有零股其實也是可以買的我們有零股加的我周邊沒有人買臺積電啊只有一個人買是投信的一個董事長而且買了好幾千億名字我就不說了"},{"start":7694.649,"end":7713.807,"text":"問題就是說當資訊不對等當所有小白在這樣的一個貧富懸殊很大的場境在這種環境之中沒辦法沒得選擇啊他跟我講很多的年輕人本來很想買虛擬貨幣"},{"start":7715.987,"end":7741.117,"text":"在美金一枚大概六千塊的時候很多年輕人就問我說我股票台積電我買不起也不曉得怎麼買然後很多人就說很多人說虛擬貨幣是年輕人的最後一個機會有人沒辦法就跳上車可是央行央行今天也來了從幾年前央行也一起上來副總裁"},{"start":7742.267,"end":7757.705,"text":"你們的總裁一直叫人家說那個是風險很大叫人家不要買就很多人都聽總裁的話都沒有買就今天證明請問一下副總裁現在比特幣一枚多少錢"},{"start":7760.165,"end":7784.208,"text":"比特幣過去的那個價格最近多少錢一枚過去我知道是7萬多接近7萬多的美元是美元所以你想想看已經差了10倍副總裁年輕人不希望年輕被留白更重要大家會怕"},{"start":7785.481,"end":7811.869,"text":"是不是在這個時代淘汰中他是不是野蠻生存遊戲他是最後的被淘汰的那個人大家都在撐啊所以 主委我剛請教你那ETF一般小白可不可以去買他的最低的額度是多少我 我很久沒有買這些東西了好 那請那個貴買"},{"start":7815.2,"end":7840.858,"text":"林董事長這個應該是你們在管的是不是我們主要是債券的ETF好債券的ETF那從你這邊開始他最低的購買的額度是多少每個人是不是都可以買還有從這幾年90幾年到現在買的人有沒有虧過錢每個單位的價格不太一樣有的40塊有的30塊有15塊"},{"start":7844.184,"end":7860.96,"text":"最低的那個入門的門檻是多少有些發行價格15或10塊啊不能這樣請那個李總經理好了李總請簡總簡總我想10塊錢以上到看他背後的一攬子股票的組成到100多塊200多塊都有"},{"start":7862.847,"end":7891.386,"text":"所以他只要出一百多塊他就可以買這個股票那個一百多塊是等於是要再乘以一千啦一張是一千股嘛對對對所以剛剛你這樣講可能他幾萬他就可以入門啊最近發行的新發行的十塊錢的話那就是一萬塊一個單位難怪啊主委這個問題就出現了多好的機會"},{"start":7892.932,"end":7920.923,"text":"而且你告訴我這十幾年來如果他買了不賣有沒有虧錢的案例這個我不太清楚但是我想股票有漲有跌他的成分股有漲有跌但他是不是一定都賺我不曉得要從實證研究那現在變成是一種全民運動特別是空手的是小白的但他覺得一定要跟上這個風潮啊這個大浪來你不跟上去那他怎麼辦"},{"start":7921.701,"end":7934.168,"text":"也許就被淘汰掉了所以主委我想請教一下那你對這些小白有什麼話說用力買還是不要買還是通通不要碰"},{"start":7935.888,"end":7959.326,"text":"ETF是一個應該是庶民可以去投資的商品但是必須你自己要了解這個商品的特質那當然監理機關這邊就要責成投信公司他必須要善盡告知這些投資人你的商品到底是什麼商品在這些公開說明書中都要詳細的跟投資人解釋清楚同時也不可以像您剛所說的"},{"start":7960.006,"end":7960.627,"text":"所以你們準備怎麼做?"},{"start":7982.93,"end":7983.33,"text":"主委請問一下這個買的機會都是一樣嗎?"},{"start":8010.789,"end":8037.69,"text":"會不會是因為他是大咖會不會因為他是市場的這個老手他買得到小白都買不到啦這應該是券商這邊出行市場部分都是看券商這邊通路上大家去去做申購啦好謝謝那請問那個簡總簡總買得到的人就是一些老面孔有很多人買不到啊"},{"start":8038.427,"end":8059.429,"text":"那你會不會開一個特別的窗口給這些買不到的人優先來成購跟委員報告其實ETF它是跟一般股票一樣掛上來以後呢在我們這個交易所或OTC的這個集中交易市場上面去做撮合所以它是很方便交易就類似股票一樣"},{"start":8060.029,"end":8079.148,"text":"那委員有提到說有買到有沒有買到這是在開始在申購的時候他成立的時候申購的時候那他有一定的限制或有一定的地方那這個還沒有掛上去掛上去以後呢你隨時可以在這個交易所這邊或OTC的市場上面買得到"},{"start":8079.928,"end":8097.035,"text":"對那個是在市面上當然你就是就用撮合的嘛對不對現在問題就是你要掛還沒掛上去的時候那為什麼張三里市他可以買這些小牌東都買不到勒我再跟您報告一下就是"},{"start":8098.561,"end":8121.031,"text":"他也有一些他在通路在是不是決定要賣給特定投資人也要看KYC也要認識客戶這個客戶是不是屬於他的風險屬性跟這個商品是相同的所以不是說我隨便誰要買都要買券商這邊也要有KYC的程序要去做主委這個承銷制度是不是有問題呀"},{"start":8123.663,"end":8149.304,"text":"那如果在這種既定的遊戲規範當中那小白永遠出不了頭了啊不會啊他有不同類型的ETF啊他都可以自己去做選擇沒有就最近最火紅的這一黨那您說的小白到底也許他也有一些投資的經驗我不太清楚那主委可不可以這樣這邊買不到的人吼那我們立法院這邊來登記然後拜託主委優先讓他們買"},{"start":8150.666,"end":8162.827,"text":"最近這一檔上禮拜就已經結束了吧上禮拜五截止了啦上禮拜五截止為什麼有人買得到有人買不到他去找嚴大這個就是一個不公平性嘛"},{"start":8165.347,"end":8191.396,"text":"這個是實務上可能就像趙偉說的請主委要注意一下在現有的這個遊戲規則當中強者恆強所有的新手所有的弱勢所有的小白永遠是人為刀齒我為魚肉希望主委可以打破這個不公平的一個制度這麼好康你怎麼不給別人給這些人為什麼都是這些老面孔"},{"start":8192.421,"end":8207.264,"text":"不是你把資料全部調出來有多少的集中度百分比多少就是那些人好的通通都拿去壞的要成銷才不然你這個買不到你去買另外一個買了就套套了就慘"},{"start":8209.479,"end":8224.244,"text":"對 這個制度是不公平的委員您提醒我們我們會去制度上去做一些研究謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員的質詢我們剛剛已經有會議宣布休息10分鐘請兩位委員稍後好 我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":8832.881,"end":8849.954,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席 請黃主委有請黃主委委員好"},{"start":8858.156,"end":8873.805,"text":"主委我想我們之前都討論過很多次那今天的主題是ETF我想就臺灣為什麼ETF這麼熱絡或者是現在這麼熱絡你個人的看法它的原因是什麼為什麼現在這個時間這麼因為這幾年臺股的這個市場是漲的"},{"start":8884.857,"end":8901.584,"text":"對 臺股是這樣的但是 是不是另外也是證明說臺灣很多的民眾他其實我們缺乏很好的投資工具或者是他對於他的錢不知道要做什麼樣的投資然後會在這個時間特別往這個部分移動"},{"start":8903.924,"end":8917.509,"text":"希望能夠比有定存好一點的收益的商品相對安全然後呢但這一次我們發覺其實因為它有些廣告有一些誤導的地方就跟網紅在中間有一些關係對,所以"},{"start":8919.813,"end":8945.782,"text":"主委我想這個ETF其實在國內的資本市場的比例並不大但是它整體規模也僅多佔台股的1%、2%整體來說它應該不至於會造成好像非常非常嚴重的狀況可是看起來最近的狀況已經變成一種全民風潮就像剛剛我們的很多委員同意說很多人連房子都去貸款"},{"start":8946.522,"end":8973.186,"text":"特別來買ETF那同樣的就是我們之前談到也是因為臺灣我們非常多的人我們的財經素養並不是很夠我們對於相關投資的判斷也不是很了解所以另外一種就是不好的就是被投資詐騙掉了那現在好一點的我們就是去買ETF我想問金管會你對於臺灣這些投股公司繼續推出ETF是採取鼓勵還是防堵的措施"},{"start":8974.741,"end":8978.524,"text":"所以你們是採取只要符合我的規範你們就可以自由的推入對吧"},{"start":8990.433,"end":9008.445,"text":"活絡資本市場是金管會的職責民眾也希望能夠有機會投資到比較好的產品重點在於從你這次推出的ETF熱潮提出的四幾個監理方案看起來就是表示這個市場現在是混亂的"},{"start":9010.352,"end":9036.865,"text":"1.強化KYC表示原來沒有做到2.加強投資教育宣導5.表示原來的宣導不夠3.ETF的廣告規範這就是你剛剛講現在最嚴重的是這個廣告的問題4.評準金的規範顯然是不是在這場的ETF熱潮中發現了這些問題那之前有做過哪些的處置"},{"start":9037.796,"end":9039.658,"text":"所以表示主委我們並不是要加強嚴管"},{"start":9056.803,"end":9084.314,"text":"加強控管其實我跟你這個意思其實是說很多制度現在就有有沒有具體落實除了網紅的部分之外好網紅的部分這就是我今天要問的網紅的部分按照相關的投信投顧法它其實如果說有誇大或不實其實是有相關法則的對吧是問題它不是投信投顧所以那它是什麼這就是一個新興的一個市場那它現在是用哪個法規來處理"},{"start":9086.328,"end":9110.749,"text":"公平法前兩天有發布一個規定有處理那現在就是要看投信跟網紅的連結能不能再找到一個關係去處理現在都是這些網紅他不是只有代言這些投資商品他還代言虛幣啊他還代言各種的投資啊因為我剛剛講的我們的民眾需要投資的工具跟標的但是他們"},{"start":9111.71,"end":9121.779,"text":"找不到好的就會受到這些影響第二個他就可能不是被詐騙就是去投資這些可能比較不適合他的商品"},{"start":9122.774,"end":9141.287,"text":"所以廣告才是這個案子最大的癥結點不是嗎就這個個案我覺得委員您的指示是我認同您的想法所以怎麼樣把這個廣告規範搞清楚第二個網紅代言ETF如果他發生了剛剛講的這些問題他不被處罰那我們罰頭信頭顧嗎"},{"start":9147.737,"end":9170.203,"text":"我跟委員報告現在就在請公會再去討論怎麼去處理總而言之如果所以現在還要討論所以它不屬於投心投顧業可是我們在投心投顧法裡面投心投顧事業從事廣告公開說明的相關的限制要主管機關定制然後70條之一不是投心投顧業不可以有任何廣告的行為這兩條法其實蠻清楚的"},{"start":9172.964,"end":9197.281,"text":"只是非屬投信投物業做了這個廣告你們現在的法則看起來在法裡面是一個很大的疏漏不是嗎對 所以要針對現在新興的這樣一個社群媒體的力量看是不是可以創造投信跟它的連結由投信去負責任所以現在的是問題就在於說我們相關的法規這中間的漏洞你什麼時候要把它補起來"},{"start":9198.427,"end":9225.447,"text":"報告委員因為政情局因為我怎麼找都找不到法他們的法條所以表示你們也找不到那因為找不到所以無法可法所以他就繼續在各種不管是任何社群媒體上面繼續的宣揚這樣的東西主委啊這不是我們現代社會應該法治國家應該有的行為吧是但至少公平會有3月8號如果推到公平會就表示經濟會失職啊不是"},{"start":9227.048,"end":9251.491,"text":"我不是說公平會我們就不做而是說我們怎麼樣去有一個邏輯的推動這個絕對不會到公平會去而已啊這個絕對是在金管會的轄下裡面你所主管的業務他們碰到這種東西主委很簡單如果他是連結那我們就必須要管理如果他不是這個進投估業他違反了這個規定我們就必須要處置"},{"start":9253.513,"end":9253.793,"text":"好 第二個 如果"},{"start":9283.15,"end":9295.98,"text":"這些要法假設我們找到法則了現在這些網紅不只代理這個ETF他還代言虛幣虛幣的部分有沒有法則?也沒有"},{"start":9298.238,"end":9301.961,"text":"這個代言就跟銷售是有還是在法律關係上是不一樣的"},{"start":9328.598,"end":9346.804,"text":"代言虛幣的部分虛幣部分目前我們沒有目前是根據資管平台這個部分但虛幣部分沒有所以網紅代言虛幣完全無法可管目前沒有這方面的如果他代言的話他算不算投信投股啊不算"},{"start":9348.342,"end":9365.081,"text":"因為它不是有加證券是 所以它什麼都不是所以它是一個又是一個新存在而不知道如何管理的我們要訂專法今年9月份會有一個專法的所以要趕快立專法那現在的這種青黃不接的時候我們該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":9366.636,"end":9378.536,"text":"我是民眾我看到網紅代言我就跑去買了就像剛剛很多委員在說大家都是因為這樣子跑去買的甚至把房子拿去貸款跑去買"},{"start":9379.827,"end":9399.407,"text":"但他希望能夠有好的投資管道所以現在無法可管這段時間的空窗期我們要怎麼處理報告員容我跟您報告虛幣跟ETF可能不能同時類比ETF是我們核准的商品我同意但是我的意思是說兩個都要有人管"},{"start":9400.832,"end":9410.401,"text":"虛弊是金管會在管但是我們是管平台但是網紅部分我在思考也許看看今年這個專法有沒有可能對這一塊去著落看看國際間的慣例"},{"start":9412.315,"end":9439.041,"text":"因為在歐盟已經針對所謂的這個代言他們有相關的規範以為說這些目前為止其實是可以往前走的在歐盟的法案裡面對網紅已經有相關限制放在市場操縱禁止條款中所以外國是有案例的所以主委我希望這兩件事情不管是哪一種我們都希望把現在市場上面這種網紅代言"},{"start":9441.021,"end":9464.898,"text":"但是他可能會造成人民會不了解相關商品內容的部分我覺得至少金管會要出手干預啊否則就像很多之前發生很多雷曼兄弟那個時候也是如此銀行在賣怎麼可能賣假的東西但是因為廣告太誘人了最後一個就是我想最後一個問題"},{"start":9467.011,"end":9481.216,"text":"我們最近有一個營業員來陳情就是有關政交法如果違約交割的話然後目前為止因為很多都是手機APP在下單跟營業員其實沒什麼關係但是如果違約交割"},{"start":9485.905,"end":9506.097,"text":"即使責任全歸客戶的話如果沒有辦法追到客戶目前營業員還是要負責任可是這個目前為止在手機已經下單的時候我不明白為什麼跟營業員到底還有什麼關係所以這個部分是不是可以請主委這邊也來做一些相關的修正或討論因為營業員認為說他從來沒見過這個客戶可是這個客戶"},{"start":9510.563,"end":9510.943,"text":"謝謝華山會委員質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":9550.842,"end":9556.689,"text":"主席、各位律師委員主席我先請金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":9562.041,"end":9583.003,"text":"委員好主委好主委那個ETF熱賣那許多投資人就不只解定存拿房子貸款那一窩蜂的都搶著要買那有很多人買不到那除了菜市場在那邊賣菜賣肉的"},{"start":9588.308,"end":9608.444,"text":"連程序都可能不清楚在這種市場的區別之下投資人根本不了解基金的特性那這樣子進場那就是投信公司的廣告跟這些網紅的宣傳那流動資金大量湧入ETF市場"},{"start":9609.725,"end":9625.931,"text":"投資人也是看到這些社群平台還有網紅的說明去進行買賣那針對投信跟網紅的部分那修正相關規定還有強化控管制度的部分是不是請主委說明一下"},{"start":9627.014,"end":9644.208,"text":"有,謝謝委員您的垂詢我想這部分的確是我們在最近看到投信在行銷上的一個一個我們覺得需要去立刻去調整的地方因為這些網紅他可能所在現場上沒有讓"},{"start":9645.049,"end":9664.939,"text":"投資人理解到其實他後面是有跟投信做連結的那所以對他的話術就可能覺得他是很公正的那其實他是後面是有投信跟他有一些商業上的契約那這部分怎麼規範我剛才有報告在報告也有講我們儘快6月底之前要跟工會把這個自律規範給他訂出來"},{"start":9666.46,"end":9668.282,"text":"這段時間我們要怎麼樣去做一個一個有效的宣傳廣告讓這些"},{"start":9686.201,"end":9714.216,"text":"民眾可以瞭解到說真正的實情狀況不要到時候因為這些網紅他有一定的影響力是那不要說公信力啦說影響力應該比較貼切那所以造成說到時候因為這個運貨風的購買然後搶快那到時候因為這樣up down或者說遭受到這些虧損"},{"start":9715.296,"end":9732.804,"text":"然後呢後來會衍生出更多的問題也是金管會主管機關到後來要面對的那所以我們6月底之前要把這個規範出來但是這段時間我們現在才3月是 我跟您報告我們在報告中也有說有3個月的時間"},{"start":9733.504,"end":9760.813,"text":"其實我們在去年11月就有請交易所購買東西我們會請工會用新型態的媒體包括這些年輕人喜歡用的管道去宣導讓他瞭解到投資這些商品該注意到的金融的知識這個商品安不安全可不可靠這個要靠主管機關來做更多的釐清那因為現在我們知道說現在熱錢都在房地產那因為現在ETF"},{"start":9763.674,"end":9784.811,"text":"這麼趨熱的情況之下現在在ETF總市值有多少4兆多包括債券比較多債券型比較多股票大概1兆5左右4兆多那表示說有這麼多的熱錢都跑到ETF這邊過來是不是也分擔了一些跑到房地產去的這些錢"},{"start":9787.662,"end":9811.801,"text":"這個我不是專家我想大家民眾對於類似這種商品有一定程度的興趣吧臺灣2月份的這個消費者CPI指數年增率3.08那創2022年7月以來的最高的新高最高那是不是因為民眾因為要抗通膨所以把錢投到房市那又看到ETF這麼熱大家搶著買所以又把錢"},{"start":9816.164,"end":9816.464,"text":"我請主委說一下"},{"start":9835.113,"end":9861.29,"text":"我想商品是中性的那當然臺股的ETF因為可能最近這幾年臺股的這個本身比較成長所以大家看到過去的績效覺得可以繼續去投資當然ETF下面有不同的成分股那這些股票漲漲跌跌總是有它自己本身的一些規矩規則我想還是要特別"},{"start":9862.19,"end":9863.331,"text":"平均地權條例新法在去年的7月全面上路"},{"start":9879.466,"end":9886.852,"text":"最重要的就是禁止預售屋跟新建成屋的換約轉售那違則可處罰50到300萬當民眾購買預售屋禁止轉約後那一旦反悔就只能夠選擇退戶"},{"start":9898.786,"end":9919.214,"text":"那退戶要收取高達15%的違約金民眾當然不願意被罰這一筆錢當然發現自己購買的預售價格又上漲那是不是就會轉接到這個檯面下的一個黑絲的交易"},{"start":9920.194,"end":9932.596,"text":"那如果 是不是這種情況讓有心人就會在地下操作這樣子的情況發生要如何能夠金管會這邊要怎麼樣去抑制炒房"},{"start":9934.408,"end":9961.797,"text":"報告委員其實您說的這部分是屬於不動產交易的實務今晚會在行政院的穩健方式的政策下基本上就是強化金融機構對於不動產受信用的品質跟風險管理那另外其他部分有一部分是中央銀行在選擇信信用管制上的一個政策"},{"start":9964.218,"end":9989.374,"text":"當然房價上漲的原因包含很多材料變貴、工錢、薪資增加、土地成本增加的部分對於房地產上漲的預期心理不管推出怎樣的打房政策投資者還是願意購買房子就希望說抗通膨讓錢能夠保值就算打房的策略作效也沒有辦法讓房價"},{"start":9991.555,"end":10009.66,"text":"有效的回跌那房價趨勢還是往上的所以整體來講打房是不成功的是不是我可不可以請教主委這個說法我們經常會其中之一我們不太適合去評估但是基本上我們對於尤其是這個銀行的壽性來講"},{"start":10012.825,"end":10033.149,"text":"對於這個借物跟不動產的預放比率都是0.1516左右大概都很低表示資產品質其實是可以的是可以的可以接受的好謝謝主委那請主席請嚴副總裁曲副總裁委員好"},{"start":10040.098,"end":10060.926,"text":"副總裁那主委請回座本席上個禮拜有問過主席長認為如果將主席長說如果把電費調漲考量進去所以今年4月電費調漲我覺得通膨率依然會高於通膨的警戒線"},{"start":10062.447,"end":10080.2,"text":"那電費調漲是勢必也是利率調漲與否的一個焦點我想國人都非常關心這個議題那FED在2月CPI報告中升幅略高於預估"},{"start":10081.243,"end":10096.809,"text":"那對降息將更加審慎在各國包含FED ECB都在考量降息的過程當中的情況之下我國是否有可能會因為電費的調漲反向升息可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":10099.363,"end":10127.756,"text":"那個報告委員因為那個我們在每次開理事會之前我們都會做整體的物價房地產市場的評估那因為我們禮拜四就要開會了所以我今天不方便直接回答您這邊的問題而且每一個國家的貨幣政策或利率政策其實是根據他當時候的那個資料去決定的所以我們要等到禮拜四以後我們才會正式公布"},{"start":10129.137,"end":10131.261,"text":"禮拜四才會有答案我問的是說這個"},{"start":10138.211,"end":10159.798,"text":"所以我們升息是不是會受到因為電價的調漲所以影響到我們升息你可不可以回答我是不是因為我們看到就是說我們原來去年底的預估的時候是1.89那現在因為預期電價調整也造成一些預期心理的形成所以我們可能會善調我們對物價的預測"},{"start":10164.72,"end":10192.572,"text":"那其實貨幣政策除了考慮物價之外也還有考慮其他的很多因素升息是不是一種抑制熱錢投入房市的一個方法我不知道那是不是可能我們如果用升息這個手段也是一樣會付出經濟成長減緩的一個代價不只這樣啦因為所有的貸款這個族群都會受到影響"},{"start":10193.732,"end":10212.833,"text":"所以升息是不是唯一的方法那是不是一定會升息報告委員因為我們在討論貨幣政策的利率調整所以我們其實考慮的因素是多方的絕對不是一個因素謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝顏寬恆委員的諮詢接著我們請武力華委員諮詢"},{"start":10230.511,"end":10231.593,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主委"},{"start":10239.935,"end":10261.37,"text":"謝謝主委今天專報是來報ETF熱賣那我們從去二月份交易熱絡的前十大ETF我們可以看一下他們標榜的投資高地很多都是寫高股息、高股息、高股息那幾乎是佔了一半以上"},{"start":10262.17,"end":10270.519,"text":"那也就是說高股息三個字呢好像成為必勝的命名方程式就是一定會大賣主委你也是這麼看嗎"},{"start":10273.598,"end":10293.149,"text":"我想他只是標榜他成份股可能過去的這個股力比較好這個我想這個我不太適合做評論是不是必勝不能做評論大家都喜歡用這三個字那沒有關係你說要看成份股我們看一下上個月二月"},{"start":10294.19,"end":10310.877,"text":"前四名的ETF我們看一下它的成分股其實很類似非常的類似那為什麼我們關心這個問題因為我們可以來看以這二月四大高股息的ETF它的成分股當中的大聯大"},{"start":10312.445,"end":10327.73,"text":"幾乎他們這四家就已經佔比將近18%也就是說ETF甚至已經要成為公司最大股東那再換算看他的30萬張持股如果以他的日均成交量"},{"start":10328.41,"end":10350.843,"text":"一萬張計算如果發生什麼變動一旦發生什麼變動它最多是需要30天才賣得完就會造成流動性的影響所以想要請教一下主委金管會這邊是不是有針對全台股ETF市場的流動性進行壓力測試看看是不是太集中某一些部分股票"},{"start":10353.444,"end":10367.852,"text":"謝委員您非常的專業我想您提到那個某一檔股票那個應該在整個ETF的成分股中沒有那麼大概就也許有一些這種請問那是極少的個案但至於說有沒有可能"},{"start":10368.652,"end":10389.22,"text":"同賣同買這個情況我想在我們的這個報告中我們在今年1月份就請交易所供來中心就這個整個市場風險的監控去做建立制度目前大概有一些有正在研究中我想這就是我們要處理的問題但是這個問題不見得會發生只是把制度上去精進"},{"start":10390.917,"end":10405.559,"text":"因為我們也不專業絕對沒有你專業委員比較專業你剛問的問題都非常的深入標的因為我們只是擔心說像我們看這四家如果他的成分股過度集中他就會帶動指標公司的漲跌"},{"start":10406.38,"end":10430.709,"text":"那我們也會擔心說他會邊緣化一些中小型股那造成後續的投資困難那另一方面呢也擔心公司因為配息不足那公司他就會被踢出一些成分股那公司又為了增加配息他就會減少一些投資那影響到公司的成長所以剛剛你有說那如果評估有影響的話那金管會的強化控管措施會是什麼"},{"start":10432.642,"end":10450.837,"text":"這個正在研究中主要就是這種如果成分股集中在某幾檔上市公司那這種如果對市場上的波動上他有沒有辦法有流動性的因應管理這部分正在研究處理但目前我想還沒有這個問題"},{"start":10452.538,"end":10467.713,"text":"整個的交易的市值在每天大概1%左右基本上應該還不到大家關心的會不會操控這個股價這個部分謝謝主委我們總是希望未雨綢繆因為我們的投資很多都是小資族"},{"start":10468.694,"end":10490.916,"text":"其實他們都是很辛苦都是畢生的積蓄那我們這裡呢就是看到這一次的這個0094年的這樣的一個沸沸揚揚的新聞他的討論度聲量呢我們可以看到上個禮拜一度比柯文哲還要高那為什麼我們這裡會提到這個因為我們有憂心啦其實上週"},{"start":10491.937,"end":10499.024,"text":"央行總裁來也有被問到這個問題那有問楊總裁說他怎麼看ETF你知道他怎麼回答嗎"},{"start":10501.294,"end":10527.157,"text":"您不知道好像圖上面有看到對 他說就是一群羊跳下去那一群羊跳下去如果是正常的羊還好我們是擔心說如果帶頭的是間諜綿羊那在這裡我們就可以看到他討論度很高以這個Dcard來講他就會出現很多的推薦文那我們也不知道這是真正的投資客的發文還是投信他是去買網路的行銷廣告"},{"start":10528.519,"end":10546.397,"text":"所以在這裡就是想要特別請教主委針對網路的這種行銷廣告你們的專案經檢是不是應該要一併的檢查那未來是不是也要強化揭露我的意思是說例如他發文的時候是不是要去要求他說是誰委託發文"},{"start":10547.518,"end":10558.787,"text":"也就是說廣告主是誰那當他做推文的時候也要寫他是代表某某頭性我想這個資訊揭露是很重要的那我們會朝這個方向去做嗎"},{"start":10560.123,"end":10580.936,"text":"是的我想委員這也是我們看到目前不論在我們日常監理或是我們最近做了一些檢查看到了投信公司有那種跟網紅之間的關係然後網紅做不當的行銷的這個缺失所以我們會在6月底之前跟投信投物公會擬定一個自律規範去做處理"},{"start":10581.716,"end":10601.127,"text":"很好謝謝主委關心這個問題就是大家因為看到我們很多的小資族新聞上也有出家人那就是因為央行的利率不高嘛那銀行的定存利率也低又看到ETF它的月配息高而且穩定所以呢大家就解除定存"},{"start":10602.649,"end":10617.809,"text":"來買報這個ETF那我是這樣想除了加強管制它節流我覺得金管會也是要開源提供其他好的金融商品那像最近金管會提出的這個REIT它的不動產證券化"},{"start":10619.671,"end":10636.546,"text":"他其實相對的就是租金收益利息是穩定的齁但是我們也是覺得有一些隱憂啦怎麼說呢就是他會不會去影響住宅市場讓房價上升又或者因為他也可以去做一些基礎設施那民眾能不能參與這種綠能的投資 主委"},{"start":10639.874,"end":10660.744,"text":"謝謝委員我們的要送給大院審查的投信投估法裡面的所謂的REIT他沒有連接住宅所以不會有大家顧慮會使房價上升的問題但是他有包括這種綠能投資只要他能夠有固定的現金流量他是可能被證券化的所以這個是跟委員報告"},{"start":10661.644,"end":10681.391,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我現在就是要提到說另外一個問題因為我知道的是環境部有委託我們金管會要來協助建置溫室氣體減量額度的交易機制簡單來講就是碳交易機制那我們也看到你們的報告有提到說2023年"},{"start":10683.192,"end":10697.082,"text":"政交所會收集國外溫室氣體自願交易機制跟經驗供環保署參考想要請教一下主委各國交易機制報告已經完成了嗎那是不是有對外公開"},{"start":10699.631,"end":10721.061,"text":"這個跟委員報告這應該是去年上去年上半年我們根據氣候邊遷因應法當時有立委建議在那邊加一個由環境部指示什麼相關主管機關所以就指示金管會請交易所配合所以這個相關所有的政策都是配合環境部去處理的金管會本身沒有去涉入"},{"start":10721.681,"end":10734.895,"text":"好那至少你們去年底你們已經進行了第一拍嘛國際探索的掛牌交易對12月嘛去年年底而且呢這個第一次第一拍還售出了8.8萬噸的探權然後國內呢有27家的企業"},{"start":10740.12,"end":10755.618,"text":"他們都已經搶購一空那其中呢萬海他也已經抵銷了2000噸的國際探權而且他有標榜一個叫日台探中和航線那我想請教國內呢國內探權交易機制的建制狀況呢"},{"start":10761.052,"end":10777.748,"text":"這碳交易所是環境部的政策所主導的所以意思就是說環境部提供的方法學都是由他來發號施令是你們只是被動的他叫我們做什麼我們就做什麼他請交易所成立一個碳交易所去配合"},{"start":10778.488,"end":10792.174,"text":"我會去問我問過環境部啊那至少我也想要問一下主委就是國內探權交易的建制狀況而且520以前會不會有第一批的國內探權上架我請那個交易所檢總經理來說沒關係就簡單回答"},{"start":10795.605,"end":10811.541,"text":"我們在國內減量的這個交易的建制上面初步在7月份會有初步的建制下放所以7月會有對不對我之所以這樣子講上週的新聞我們可以看到百噸以下的碳交易免手續費"},{"start":10812.702,"end":10839.542,"text":"而且是說環境部擬修正避免業者規避結果呢 細看內容他上面是說在3月8號的說明會與會的金管會代表認為未達100噸的100公噸的小額交易若免收5%的手續費事業單位有可能會藉此將大額交易切割成小額交易來規避手續費表示金管會的意見很有影響力"},{"start":10841.043,"end":10855.791,"text":"那我是覺得我覺得並不是那麼有道理甚至我覺得這種講法並不是那麼有道義啦為什麼因為金管會探交所你們可以透過你們的監督機制去防止切割啊為什麼要因業費時為什麼要因大費小"},{"start":10858.152,"end":10876.858,"text":"因為你要知道手續費過高是不利小額交易沒有錯但是我們要講的就是說很多都是小額交易啊我是原住民我很關心很多的原住民族人都很關心碳匯碳定價我們來看一下全台的原保地有6.7"},{"start":10880.44,"end":10899.448,"text":"以元寶地來看領這些淨法補償的平均每一個人會有1.5公頓1.5公頃那我現在是說未來如果我們無論採既有人工林的書法與再造或森林經營攤貴的方法學專案我們都希望是以小額的自然人為主體"},{"start":10900.288,"end":10913.556,"text":"所以現在大家詬病的就是否企業嘛所以國內探權的我們也一直在等所以呢我是希望說主委我想請教你探交易的參與者後續您認為是不是應該要納入自然人"},{"start":10915.114,"end":10939.106,"text":"我跟您報告這個東西都是環境部在規劃可是您今天對我們的指證我們會再跟您請教謝謝因為你們一定會有一個平台會開會所以我希望我們這個地方也能夠有一個共識知道我們在想什麼所以你們的意見很重要主委我是不是請相關同仁包括交易所去您辦公室跟您請教好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":10942.629,"end":10960.929,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員的質詢接著我們請王紅薇委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想先請中央銀行副總裁先請嚴副總裁"},{"start":10965.99,"end":10984.842,"text":"委員好副總裁好今天主要要談ETF不過呢我也有剛才仔細看你們的報告因為大家也會關心現在過多的游資除了追逐ETF之外也很擔心這些錢會不會倒向會不會流向房市那現在呢就是以"},{"start":10986.042,"end":11014.438,"text":"現在政府來說我想基本上包含今年平均定學條例的上路還有房屋稅差別稅率2.0準備今年7月實施基本上這個都算是一個打房的措施那我想請問一下中央銀行在去年有這個算是2023年版的一些相關的這個打房措施那請問一下2024年中央銀行有沒有一些打房措施"},{"start":11017.137,"end":11034.506,"text":"報告委員因為我們每一次在理事會之前我們都會針對國內的金融市場和房地產市場做分析和評估所以其實在每一次會議的討論裡面我們都會涉及這個問題那是不是會有政策出現可能就是由理事會來決定"},{"start":11035.782,"end":11052.961,"text":"所以這次禮監事會裡面也有針對會不會擔心熱錢流入房市使得房市過熱的這樣的議題會在禮監事會裡面討論我剛才跟委員報告就是說我們在過去幾年每一次的禮事會都會針對房地產市場問題有所討論"},{"start":11055.316,"end":11080.801,"text":"好所以呢就是2024年因為到現在為止大家也在關心嘛你們包含一些貸款陳述選擇性信用管制會不會繼續的持續所以都會在禮監事會討論所以也不排除會有2024年版的打房措施囉我們每一次在禮事會後的新聞稿你現在變成是在倒帶了好那就謝謝副總裁時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":11083.615,"end":11112.072,"text":"我請我們那個金管會有請黃主委黃主委是 委員好主委00940他們把它講成說快樂領袭就是你就是你但是呢同時呢也很特殊的在這與此同時已經出現了自救會而且超過兩萬名自救會那麼的會成員那所以"},{"start":11113.106,"end":11123.761,"text":"我們過去在講股市說如果啊這個街上的插鞋童都在談股市的時候就代表股市過熱了以前是有這種說法那最近的00940的這個熱啊比如說我去到電視台上節目"},{"start":11129.008,"end":11142.955,"text":"那些書畫師一邊書畫如果他是一些來上投資理財的他們就開始問要不要買00940然後呢很多的小資族在辦公室都在說你有沒有買00940所以"},{"start":11147.489,"end":11166.784,"text":"各位你會不會覺得現在確實ETF特別就是之前還有一檔這樣加起來大概好像已經破了好幾千億我已經忘了那個數字那非常非常的驚人尤其00940三天就破一千億然後聽說好多的券商的電腦都因此而當機了"},{"start":11167.987,"end":11176.806,"text":"所以諸位你認不認為現在的這個所謂高息高配息的ETF是不是真的過熱了"},{"start":11180.018,"end":11208.575,"text":"我想主要是因為過去幾年臺股的表現不錯所以這種以臺股為成分股的ETF的確它有配到它有長到天頭對它股價賺了然後它配息也配得很好是 可能讓投資人覺得那我繼續買下去可能也會達到這個目標大家頭耳相傳那我說此時此刻是不是過熱了以我們過去看到的這樣股市這麼多的商品股票也好"},{"start":11209.235,"end":11228.948,"text":"他算不算過熱其實應該是反映現在國人的儲蓄率高他們希望找一種能夠有這種固定能夠收回資金的這樣的一個商品去投資那這種商品正好符合國人的期待但是另外還有一個要跟您請教的就是其實中間有一些"},{"start":11230.669,"end":11257.844,"text":"網紅他在跟投資人傳達訊息我知道你們最近會有一些措施來看一下我們台股的ETF其實規模真的是狂飆當然它的原因有很多種一方面股價上漲如果股價下跌說實在也不會這麼熱因為大家都說它高配息但是很多也去忽略它有它的投資風險在所以你可以看到這個是"},{"start":11259.865,"end":11282.215,"text":"現在到今年二月底已經飆到一兆五千多億這是非常非常高啦當然相對而言他也挹注了臺股的一個資金動能我們來看下一頁我知道金管會要出手了我剛講說你是不是覺得過熱你一直不願意講但是呢我相信你一定是覺得過熱不然的話金管會為什麼要出手呢"},{"start":11282.995,"end":11311.058,"text":"但是呢你這邊我待會我先問你有關於限制網紅宣傳的部分當然你說要有標示警語就像什麼基金投資有賺有賠我們都常常聽到的你不能強調月配息那我這些我都還可以接受但是聽說你們要要求網紅在宣傳的時候你不能說打敗定存那我覺得這點就有點奇怪了他本來就打敗定存"},{"start":11311.678,"end":11325.806,"text":"今天如果不是定存利率那麼低的話為什麼這麼多人去追求ETF呢所以他確實在他的這個配息上面他確實打敗定存那你不准他講我覺得這點沒有什麼道理吧"},{"start":11326.84,"end":11344.001,"text":"我能跟您報告這個規範還在工會在研擬中所以最後怎麼樣去確定還不確定只是說不希望把商品跟定存去做連結了就像以前寶刀一樣你做連結但是我覺得重點你如果說就配息來講它真的就比不過定存了嘛對不對"},{"start":11344.762,"end":11350.683,"text":"但是我覺得就是要強調它的一個投資風險不是所有ETF都賺也有一些ETF都點破淨值的也有啊後面在點頭因為你們懂可是很多的小資族很多的年輕人或者很多的一些他對股票投資不是那麼熟悉看到大家都在賺股票對不對然後有這樣的一個商品"},{"start":11369.868,"end":11393.137,"text":"所以他覺得他要去投資這個也無可厚非那當然網紅宣傳他會有推波助瀾的效果可是我真的覺得就是你們的相關的要求也要合理啦我聽到說不能打敗定存我就覺得這是什麼人家實話不能講嘛另外請教一下你們會不會去訂定設立募集上限目前沒有"},{"start":11394.994,"end":11411.687,"text":"完全沒有這樣的考量沒有所以現在什麼00940這樣子一檔就是可以吸金吸這麼多以後可能這種盛況不大容易再看到了那麼你不準備未來要去定一個募集上限"},{"start":11412.703,"end":11441.21,"text":"我現階段沒有這個想法因為我想現階段主要還是這次也有一些特別的情況主要還是覺得在宣我們最近1月初檢查幾家大投信發覺網紅在中間有一些不太合適的推波助瀾的效果希望有一些規範這次針對網紅目前上線目前沒有這個可能很多投信會非常感謝你好來下一頁"},{"start":11442.932,"end":11472.079,"text":"我們要發主動型ETF嗎這個是有啦不過我剛才郭昭偉在質詢的時候我覺得郭昭偉講的也很有道理所以我們會通案再考量通案考量然後包含他要用全透明式或者是半透明式那我看好像現在有這個方向嗎這個可能是工會跟政企局在討論目前還沒有還沒有確定是不是沒有"},{"start":11472.847,"end":11483.335,"text":"因為看起來好像工會比較傾向於是全透明式我不了解不過委員有什麼特別的指示可以交代給我們我們來做參考"},{"start":11483.871,"end":11511.462,"text":"我覺得你們應該把它利弊得失通通把它列出來我覺得這個有關主動型ETF我不會說覺得不應該去推可是相關的什麼全透明半透明我覺得你應該把所有的相關的利弊得失通通列出來然後再去做好好的研究這樣是比較好的方式我們是會今天特別謝謝委員還有剛剛郭昭瑋有給我們很多指導我們會一併跟工會去討論謝謝"},{"start":11513.766,"end":11517.867,"text":"好 謝謝王宏偉委員的質詢 接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢主席我們請這個主委來有請黃主委委員好"},{"start":11537.655,"end":11564.653,"text":"這個我們看到我剛看很多委員都有質詢有關這個ETF這件事情最近這麼熱好像如果沒有買就跟不上這個時代潮流那我想到這當然幾個原因第一個我們台灣的錢大概算是很多啦然後第二個可能民眾對於這樣的這種金融商品的理解度不夠所以你們也有說你們要做一些相關的這個政策"},{"start":11565.273,"end":11587.228,"text":"所以我想我又根據在在根據剛剛幾位委員的這個質詢我想有些問題還有想要跟您請教第一個剛剛那個王委員說這個沒有募集上限這件事情所以你說的是說每一檔的他的這個ETF他每一檔的話他就從頭開始募集可以一直募集到隨時是嗎沒有時間點嗎"},{"start":11590.68,"end":11605.767,"text":"沒有他募集期間本來在發行計畫中都有定所以有時間只是說我們沒有先這一段沒有說你這一檔最多只能募集到多少所以說比如說那你有沒有給他他會先給個計畫那這中間會不會有一個大概是一般會給多久的時間呢"},{"start":11610.544,"end":11630.301,"text":"你給他募集的時間一個月、兩個月、一年、兩年?一般募集期間大概7天左右目前在講這一檔他超過7天應該是有9天所以他有一個時間你們現在的規定說他的募集時間是沒有上限的以現在的規定"},{"start":11635.677,"end":11656.142,"text":"同仁表達現在規定是一個月但是他猴心公司可能自己去評估他的能力所以不見得要募那麼長他也許只有一段時間但是你有一個時間的上限是一個月他可以七天就說我募夠了但你跟他金額是沒有上限的比如說我要這一檔目前沒有規定上限"},{"start":11658.723,"end":11685.342,"text":"你們沒有規定那他也可以比如說募到五千億一兆也是可以的嗎是這樣子嗎我們沒有規定上限那現在這個情形是這樣子那現在大家也許對很多東西不了解但是有點像以前這個臺灣人很喜歡一窩蜂嘛比如說買蛋塔看到大家排隊就跟著買看這個當然還有一個宣傳宣傳說這個東西就是尤其剛剛我看主委一直在講說比如說因為配息的關係嘛符合臺灣人的這種喜好度"},{"start":11685.862,"end":11690.187,"text":"我看到你們的管理裡頭後面有講說你們要檢討你們檢討的部分要加強包括ETF配息政策是否適當你們有這樣說嘛 對不對"},{"start":11702.976,"end":11730.177,"text":"這是現階段在做的事情你們要檢討這一段那請問你們對他的他提出來這個配息就他要提一個計畫他的配息計畫裡頭他可不可以我想請問我問的都很基本的問題請問這個比如他可不可以說我每個月就配息2%可不可以我們只會去討論他配息的來源是不是合理但是他他配多少請局長來你們回答一下你們可以這樣規定嗎"},{"start":11732.608,"end":11754.054,"text":"就是說ETF要在他們的公開說明書裡面說明說他配息的政策是怎樣對 比如說他可不可以跟民眾保證說每個月就是配息2%可不可以他不能保證還是說他可以保證反正他會不會鑽石他的心他不可以保證他不可以嘛 他不可以做他不可以保證說他會配多少嘛 對不對"},{"start":11755.094,"end":11784.474,"text":"意思說他不能說我一定會給你2%或是給你4%或給你1%1%或他給你一年2%可不可以這樣保證定存就可以嘛那這個可不可以這不可以因為這個要看他這個基金背後的成分股他配息確實的情形我的意思是說即便這個這個ETF他的投資他會來假設投資比如說股票一直往下跌他也不賺錢他還是他如果跟百姓答應跟投資人答應說我就是要給一年就是5%好了10%好了他可以這樣做嗎他可不可以這樣做"},{"start":11786.135,"end":11802.849,"text":"他不可以說我要配給他一定要看他實際的所以他不可以這樣說嗎他不可以這樣說的話他現在的他不可以這樣如果法令是規定他不可以這樣說他現在的他們的宣傳裡頭說我們一定超過定存這樣不就表示明顯違法嗎"},{"start":11804.506,"end":11826.506,"text":"你知道我在說什麼嗎如果你們的規定就是說因為他說要超過定存的時候如果沒有違法他會這樣說一般人看到網紅這樣說會相信嘛相信是因為一般人不會公開叫大家做違法的事情尤其網紅這麼有地位的人這麼有影響力的人怎麼會叫大家違法呢所以如果他網紅說這個超過定存我剛剛看到網紅也有寫到超過定存什麼的"},{"start":11830.109,"end":11846.983,"text":"那如果有人公開這樣說這樣沒有違法嗎?如果你們給他的規定是他不可以說他可以配幾%的話因為我們這樣看起來就覺得他應該是可以啊他願意虧錢啊你們聽得懂我說的意思嗎?他不可以你現在回答我是不行嘛對不對問題是就是有這樣的宣傳啊所以這樣宣傳沒有違法嗎?"},{"start":11848.41,"end":11865.518,"text":"就是這個資訊上就不完整了資訊完不完整像我們也不了解不完整吧大部分的百姓都不完整問題是你們管的不是百姓收到資訊完整你們會去希望資訊更完整但是你們管的是這個過程當中募集資金的過程中有沒有違法嘛"},{"start":11866.118,"end":11885.625,"text":"如果在你們的規定裡頭他是不可以說他一個月配多少包或者他可以說一年配多少包還是都不行如果他都不能這樣說的話那他們去說了我們超過定存定存是大家都知道比如說以2%來講那他的意思就是說我一年一定或是我一個月一定會給你超過一年一定會給你超過定存那這樣沒有違法嗎"},{"start":11886.965,"end":11904.235,"text":"主委您聽得懂我的題目嗎我剛才交易所總經理跟您報告也都是說這種配息只是一種預估不能夠保證那其實因為他要看成分股率來漲還多所以他們可以說但是在所有觀眾如果他說這個只是預估要講清楚就可以是嗎"},{"start":11905.916,"end":11926.414,"text":"因為看起來現在的大部分的宣傳都是沒有說是預估吧報告委員這個我們是有一些規定說你不適合用優於不適合跟不行是兩件事喔不適合跟不行啦不適合反正我願意做沒有只要我沒有違法我做網紅我做什麼推我做招募資金的我做這個這邊都是講不得啦"},{"start":11927.915,"end":11929.916,"text":"不得有下列行為不得有實用、用於定存、打敗通膨等"},{"start":11952.402,"end":11957.888,"text":"所以說現在公開在說優於定存這個就是就是宣導不實囉"},{"start":11959.759,"end":11980.972,"text":"這也是我們在這次是宣導不實還不是宣導不實他這個做法不管他的內容有沒有就是說他有沒有真的超過啦那是後面的實質內容啦我說他這個程序有沒有違法他這個推廣的這個方法目前在我的身份說有人違法不違法都不太合適要同仁俱來解我也不是針對特定黨啦我也不針對特定內容我說的只是說這種行為這個樣態的行為是不是合法的"},{"start":11989.477,"end":12018.659,"text":"因為你們在裡面都說不得、不得、不得但我不知道這樣有沒有違法啊有還是沒有啊如果已經有人這樣說他違不違法這個跟公會的制度規範是不一致的所以他只是違反自律但他沒有違反你們的規定所以只要不自律反正沒有關係啦不自律是處罰的事情啦頭線也是依照社會信任才能夠發展我現在在這邊立法院講的是法律嘛我就想請教這樣是不是合法你們要去探討一下也許你還沒有辦法給我答案那沒關係那至少你讓我"},{"start":12018.899,"end":12041.593,"text":"瞭解我們在跟公會在討論你要給我們答案然後對不起可以再問一題嗎因為剛剛賴委員問到我也很好奇那所以說他募資資金過程他說是不是用自己的錢去還那個嘛比如說利息固定多少多少那當然可能資本利得會降低嘛但是他如果一直募會不會變成那種我說像老鼠會那種模式啊拿後面的錢來補前面的"},{"start":12043.234,"end":12064.441,"text":"不過你的時間很短應該不至於吧?你能這樣做嗎?所以這就是為什麼我們今年1月初訂了一個評準金規範而且要求業者去遵循我有看到我有看到那你要評準金就是說他如果願意把這些錢都我知道你要規定說他配的時候要分配是多少%多少%多少%那有沒有可能變成是這種我們剛一直在問這種龐氏的騙局我們一直也是很好奇"},{"start":12064.941,"end":12065.241,"text":"我們現在的規範就是防止這個現象發生"},{"start":12081.957,"end":12101.549,"text":"我們一頁的規範就是不希望投資人以為他拿到的錢其實是他自己的錢因為主委你常常你這樣回答常常都是很有點很模糊啦因為有時候像剛剛那些問題都回答得這麼模糊到底法令可不可以你都不回答清楚的話百姓就會百姓會無所適從啦是我的不對啦"},{"start":12101.949,"end":12124.764,"text":"但是很多個案我不能夠現在就我不是要問你個案我只是問你樣態行為樣態沒關係我剛剛我提的問題沒有我會再跟你們請教因為我們最重要還是要讓社會大眾投資投資者瞭解說怎樣才是正確的還有包括那些所謂的網紅他們能不能這樣做也要讓他們知道這個比宣傳效果更好瞭解謝謝委員指導謝謝陳昀臻委員的資訊接著我們請李坤臻委員資訊"},{"start":12136.356,"end":12142.441,"text":"謝謝主席我先讓這個主委先喝口茶請主委請主委"},{"start":12144.847,"end":12165.769,"text":"主委辛苦了大家都很關心這個ETF熱賣也謝謝我們主席在今天特別召開這個題目那請問一下主委目前台灣ETF的規模我按照這個資料來講現在有241檔的ETF掛牌交易交易的規模是新台幣是4兆1990億元"},{"start":12168.231,"end":12193.153,"text":"然後到1月底為止上市櫃有48檔臺股ETF持有的股票占全市市場的股票市值是2.38%占整體股市交易值交易股數約占1%左右這是你們提供的資料那請教一下主委這個最近ETF熱賣對於股市的成交影響大不大"},{"start":12194.417,"end":12218.957,"text":"因為您看得出來它交易量才佔1%嘛所以理論上應該不至於有什麼過大的影響是啊就是說因為我就看數字才佔1%嘛那理論上對於這個股票的交易來講應該不會有太大的波動才對嘛大的格局上是這樣子沒錯那這個那因為也佔1%左右那請教一下主委ETF還有在成長的空間嗎"},{"start":12221.557,"end":12242.991,"text":"應該有吧 投信還會繼續再發ETF只要股市持續熱我認為這個ETF就有繼續成長的空間那我引述這一個財訊董事長謝金河的看法他說這個ETF熱賣就是表示說臺灣的錢很多那臺灣錢很多過去呢第一個是往股市第二個就是往房地產"},{"start":12243.963,"end":12266.025,"text":"所以說他認為說最重要的是說引導政府的這一個現在的一些游資要往哪裡走才是正確的因為我們不希望說這個他去往房地產那個方向注點這個房地產又繼續又再炒熱然後呢那可能就往股市那往股市呢這個現在就是往ETF來走那對於這個謝金的看法主委的看法是覺得如何"},{"start":12267.202,"end":12288.88,"text":"沒有我想謝董事長是大家很尊敬的意見領袖啦我想我們會參考他的最主要是認為齁臺灣的游資過多啦因為我剛剛聽前面這個委員有在問這個主委主委也認為說那現在為什麼ETF會熱賣的原因之一就是說現在臺灣的游資過多然後這個錢希望去投資那錢投資呢希望說又比定存要再好一點"},{"start":12289.56,"end":12301.778,"text":"那所以呢現在ETF呢熱賣那手續簡單然後呢又很方便然後感覺上現在股市過熱了然後我們很多這個高檔的股票沒辦法投資所以就去買ETF了所以造成ETF的熱賣"},{"start":12303.826,"end":12319.398,"text":"主委您的看法股市好所以連結股市的ETF大家就有興趣再加上我們台灣的投信的ETF設計的商品這種月配息、季配息國外不太會做這個事但是投核國人的期待"},{"start":12320.198,"end":12337.837,"text":"對 那就表示說我們的投信對ETF的這個包裝或是說它的這個讓大家覺得說這個入門非常的容易那對未來也有期待我對於這個高檔股票我可能沒辦法有這麼多錢去買了但是我覺得買ETF可能有這個期待有這個機會 對不對"},{"start":12339.703,"end":12352.728,"text":"委員整理得很好從你們跟許多委員的談法來看我也看到你們的報告ETF特性第一個ETF透明性高具有分散投資風險第二個當然投資還有風險所以也必須要注意"},{"start":12356.609,"end":12377.98,"text":"但是你也提到說它透明度是高的那所以我剛才整理了一下說ETF熱賣大概有幾個原因第一個股市上兩萬點第二個游資過多第三個深扣的門檻低有時候一張一萬塊就有了至於這家投信只有十塊其他有的不見得十塊對啊當然有的高一點但是門檻都很低啊對不對比買零股還低"},{"start":12379.88,"end":12400.609,"text":"最近又是獨打高配席那等一下我會請教一下主委那其實我在上禮拜也有問這個主計總署主計長也提到說超額儲蓄的問題那他提到說超額儲蓄呢那時候這個朱主計長他是回答我說超額儲蓄呢也可以投資在金融市場那我請教一下主委金融市場投資大概包含哪些"},{"start":12402.523,"end":12428.999,"text":"一般基金、商品、股票有些人也投資黃金那ETF算不算?ETF也算所以我是認為因為現在你只要讓它按照你們的規定來走那其實不管是基金、股票、ETF其實只要按照規定來走應該都用健康的心態來面對它"},{"start":12430.609,"end":12459.228,"text":"我同意委員的想法這也是我們的想法不會因為這一檔熱賣就做什麼我覺得就是從瞭解它問題徵兆的所在去做處理就好了因為現在就是說其實ETF有它的這個好處我剛才提過了說為什麼這麼多投資人願意去買ETF那它也都在你們的規範之下它才有辦法上市櫃嘛對不對但是現在的問題就在於說金管認為說它在這個包裝上面的一些話術是不是容易讓投資人覺得說我買這個我賺不賠"},{"start":12461.069,"end":12488.897,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個對 我以為您講到重點了就是要有正確的資訊告訴投資人沒有什麼事情是穩賺不可其實如果有正確資訊其實你們有相關規定都有不論是廣告的查核或是說KYP、KYC的這個查核都有這個其實在這個ETF熱賣之前相關的規範你們都有嘛 對不對所以其實只要落實這個KYP還有KYC的查核知道你買的是什麼商品嘛那知道是誰要來買嘛"},{"start":12490.217,"end":12514.86,"text":"那其實問題就可以減低很多嘛對不對有很多問題其實法規制度都有只是執行上有沒有落實好 那我問你執行面的問題好了給你看一個廣告那主委看一下說廣告到底有沒有違反說你們現在這一個不應該以年化配息為廣告內容不應該以月配息為廣告內容其實我是不太清楚說為什麼這個年化配息或是月配息不能作為廣告內容"},{"start":12516.476,"end":12519.041,"text":"為什麼不能用這個年化配息或是月配息為廣告內容?他的問題在哪裡?"},{"start":12528.626,"end":12556.575,"text":"這個我想我現在不太適合因為我還要跟同仁討論一下到底這個廣告到底的有沒有問題很抱歉我現在沒辦法去說先不談這個廣告因為我是舉出這兩點因為它的廣告一個是高股息一個是每月的現金流那因為這兩點就是違反了你們的規定說不可以用年化配息為廣告內容不可以用月配息為廣告內容那我的問題在於說那為什麼不能用這兩個"},{"start":12559.263,"end":12567.477,"text":"這兩點為廣告內容就算他的僅語上面都會寫這位是不是請同仁說明一下他應該跟報酬率是不太一樣的對不對"},{"start":12570.054,"end":12591.33,"text":"對 如果說依照現在這個廣告的話我們現在的規定是說它不能使用說比如說優於定存或打敗通膨這樣子的一些用語那就是那個公會的規定已經有這樣相關規定那委員提示的這個廣告內容我們會再來瞭解一下它實際上面的一些廣告有沒有什麼"},{"start":12592.552,"end":12606.249,"text":"那我的意思是說先不管這個廣告就是說那為什麼不能用年化配息率為廣告內容或是說月配息為廣告的內容如果剛剛像你所講的說打敗定存那不一定嘛有時候就會賠阿"},{"start":12607.591,"end":12635.919,"text":"打敗通膨也不一定嘛那沒有穩賺不賠的那我只是說我很好奇為什麼是用這兩點來作為這個你們規範的內容如果他都有符合你們的規定啊比如說他在給予上面有寫比如說這個他的這個來回到上一頁比如說他是這個領息他就說領息齁這個基金配息不代表未來的配息率基金配息來源可能是收益批准金等等他其實都寫得很清楚那這有違反相關的規定嗎"},{"start":12638.569,"end":12665.501,"text":"回答委員的問題就是剛剛委員提到那個不能用年化配息比如說他第一季配了5%好了他用推算就是比如說推算成年化就乘以4就20%可是實際上他的成分股在第二季的時候配息的情況做調整只配1%好了這樣子就會當然不能這樣子對對對所以我們就要求說他要說清楚而且不能用月配息比如說他這邊寫的他這邊寫的說他的這一個"},{"start":12668.062,"end":12694.368,"text":"這個殖利率是用過去5年的這個平均計算這樣子我不跟你討論這個個案的廣告我只是跟你講就是說我們都希望說這一個投信公司他們在做廣告的時候他必須符合你的規範那我現在是提出來的規範就是說如果他的規範年化配息或是說月配息他就按照你的規定寫清楚說年化配息是怎麼來的然後月配息是怎麼來的"},{"start":12695.828,"end":12722.984,"text":"那我很好奇說那這樣有沒有違反相關的規定而已就是說今天這個股票在漲ETF在漲我覺得是呈現正相關如果今天股票一直跌一直跌一直跌我相信ETF也不會熱賣才對啦那所以說是因為剛好最近股票一直漲那大家對台灣有信心那對ETF大家覺得說我門檻低我願意去買那這也像這個主席長他所講的就是說那這個其實也是金融投資的一部分"},{"start":12723.925,"end":12740.533,"text":"那我的看法就是認為說你們參考就是說如果它都是符合你們的規定那其實就用健康的心態去來管理它知道你買的是什麼東西知道是誰來買按照目前的規定其實就可以了但是不要用這個打壓的方式來做處理啦"},{"start":12741.558,"end":12756.393,"text":"不會啦我想這個是民眾要選擇的商品但是重點資訊要對稱要透明要誤導投資人資訊對稱要透明然後提醒投資人這都是金管會還有投信公司都要做的"},{"start":12757.274,"end":12784.137,"text":"但是其他之外就讓ETF我就讓它自然去成長那ETF也有下市下跪了也都有啊那股票也是一樣啊股票在漲的時候我們也不會說你不要去買誰買誰我們也不會特別去這樣講因為這樣子就干預股市的這一個自然的這個成長的法則啦那我說過說目前為止它的這個成交數這麼低其實對於股票市場其實影響性也不大那所以我認為說在手段"},{"start":12784.837,"end":12810.354,"text":"與目標之間這個你們要拿捏那個標準啦好不好我瞭解委員我們就是這個方向你看我的報告中也沒有要去就只是就行銷上面特別注意你的報告寫得很平實阿但是齁對記者講話的時候這個記者會就會覺得說有這個干預打壓的這個味道出來了沒有我今天謝謝召委給我機會去澄清啦我們是健康發展好健康發展好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":12811.034,"end":12812.515,"text":"有請黃天牧主委"},{"start":12834.366,"end":12847.652,"text":"委員各位先恭喜您高票當選我們第一次在這個委員會見面感謝主委感謝主委讓我持續有機會來質詢你不過面對問題解決問題我想是一定的準則"},{"start":12849.045,"end":12868.517,"text":"每幾年臺灣就會出現一些特定的金融商品好像熱賣比如說本席有印象幾年前應該十幾年前投資情報單突然間很火紅那那個時候大家也是有一窩蜂的一個現象那也有所謂的什麼境外基金外幣基金等等的那近期討論到這個ETF"},{"start":12870.834,"end":12899.003,"text":"你的報告裡面第11頁本席也特別看了一下現在要針對所謂的網紅合作其實資訊公開透明當然大家都認同但是為什麼過去現在有這種過熱的一個情況很多人就認為是說在行銷的手法上好像就會被美化讓消費者不一定讓一般的民眾不一定知道說他的風險而導致一窩蜂的一個情況所以本席現在想請教如果說針對你剛剛有提到的"},{"start":12901.672,"end":12922.287,"text":"針對現在要求這個所謂的自律規範廣告規範、自律規範到底有沒有相關的罰則自律目前是沒有沒有罰則那如果說真的還是有一些這種網紅行銷持續的不管是拍影片、業配文那出來怎麼辦有要求下架的機制嗎"},{"start":12924.301,"end":12949.491,"text":"這個部分其實國會訂完自律規範之後如果業者沒有遵循自然政企局在日常監理上也會採取相關的一些措施去相關措施包括什麼先分兩塊主委你先聽我把話講完因為這個是新型態的一個部分以前在投資型保單的時候可能還沒有網路沒有到現在YouTube等等的這一些網紅那現在第一是會針對那個網紅還是針對公司"},{"start":12953.772,"end":12972.052,"text":"第二所以網紅影片持續放在那邊那我們有任何的要求下架機制嗎如果說明顯他的影片就是講得很偏薄或說會讓有誤導投資大眾之嫌那有沒有接受檢舉的一個機制以及有沒有會要求這個影片下架"},{"start":12973.188,"end":12990.299,"text":"大委員我們現在討論的都是發掘投信有跟網紅的一些協議行銷的機制有的是直接有的是透過行銷公司那我們現在就是要責成投信跟網紅這間機制要涵蓋一些必要的內容不要誤導投資人是啊"},{"start":12990.979,"end":13007.916,"text":"不是 主委你跳太快了本席現在先講的是說如果說有影片我們去了解到是說這可能是發行的公司他去跟網紅合作就簡單講受雇關係我跟你多少錢請網紅拍一個影片來推薦某一支ETF"},{"start":13008.777,"end":13030.639,"text":"那這樣子的一個行為你可能可以有連結性那本席還有第二個問題是現在自媒體很多如果說我今天我是一個客戶我自己買了一個ETF我覺得很不錯我自己去講說哇我這個ETF賺了多少錢我秀出我的這個投資報酬率等等的相關的這個收益表那這樣有沒有觸犯相關的一個行則有沒有觸犯相關的一個規定"},{"start":13031.34,"end":13041.807,"text":"目前在金管會這邊如果不是跟投信連結直接間接連結目前我是可以說他並沒有說違反我們什麼金管會跟工會的相關的那這樣會不會出現漏洞"},{"start":13044.013,"end":13060.882,"text":"因為我覺得主委我們今天討論就是要務實啊ETF過熱這是一個現象那當然有兩種一個是說我就是放任反正市場機制到最後淘汰了市場願打願買然後自己個人負責但另外一個部分是說針對資訊"},{"start":13063.163,"end":13088.786,"text":"不透明或說有誤導之嫌的時候我們主管機關當然有一定的一個權責嘛也因此本集才講是說今天我們最重點是在於是網紅如果說有一些行銷推薦的影片他誤導支持的時候我們主管機關到底態度是什麼我跟您這樣報告如果是跟投信直接間接連結的現在在公會這裡規範就可以處理那如果不是直接連結的但你想處理是沒有要求他影片下架"},{"start":13091.107,"end":13116.347,"text":"那個請副局長你跟他報告一下你有沒有要求影片下架就是如果說像委員講的是說沒有跟投信顧業者的合作的話那如果他網紅只是純粹在他的影片上分兩階段因為主委一直把我的問題也跳開所以說我現在要focus第一如果說是跟投信業者有合作那你明明白的確認那你"},{"start":13117.127,"end":13139.596,"text":"剛剛你的報告裡面有講是說你的影片或是內容你要加注警語譬如說這個是某某公司贊助嘛其實我們常聽到很多的金融商品都講說最後都會很快速唸一段嘛投資有賺有賠就申購前景了解公開說明書等等的對不對那個是我們監管會那時候要求才會有這一段嘛那一樣到底現在因為新型態的網路行銷我們怎麼樣去規範"},{"start":13141.839,"end":13162.817,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到說他因為有置入性行銷所以如果他是跟網紅合作他要警語說我是某某公司有贊助的讓投資人知道這個是行銷的廣告那如果說純粹只是網紅的分享那這個可能我們就沒有辦法用投信端連結那如果剛剛有講到說如果是投信端委託的"},{"start":13163.658,"end":13164.278,"text":"那如果沒有改善呢?"},{"start":13184.178,"end":13193.485,"text":"如果說沒有改善違反工會的規定的話我們嚴重可以依照我們的投信固法來做行政裁罰行政裁罰多少錢60萬到300萬60萬到300萬"},{"start":13200.148,"end":13215.337,"text":"那多久才罰一次一案一罰如果說網紅他的影片持續在那邊不下架因為現在的狀況是大家覺得是說你的60到300其實是非常低公平會被問到的時候還要講到是說他可以用公平交易法從5萬到2500萬來罰"},{"start":13218.134,"end":13230.668,"text":"那你現在我們主管機關只有60到300最多300那會不會有有一些投信業者乾脆覺得說這也是廣告費的一環我就把它變成是廣告成本我能收到財委會審的投信投資會提高到1500萬"},{"start":13232.577,"end":13237.72,"text":"主委本席今天提的問題其實都是很直接而且也應該是主管機關要想到的還有應該是出現在今天報告裡的"},{"start":13252.887,"end":13280.472,"text":"第一如果說有連結我們現在沒有主動的要求影片下架的一個機制我們只能被動的那這個時間過程會拖多久不知道第二如果說是一般人員的分享或者是說我就刻意講是說沒有這是我的分享你不知道說他私下有沒有跟投信業者有任何的一個收益或是報酬這你沒有辦法舉證你沒有辦法查清這也是另外一個部分那還有新聞報導那麼的熱"},{"start":13282.472,"end":13307.726,"text":"有些時候大家會看到新聞報道哇今天哪一個又大家擠破頭那新聞報道上面有沒有需要在旁邊也加注一些公平的一個市井的一個狀況黃委員今天的議題確實很熱啦有專訪6月底前就會完成啦6月底前會完成所以有包括新聞媒體嗎沒有沒有也沒有"},{"start":13309.031,"end":13323.165,"text":"所以所以主委所以也要新聞媒體有他的另外一個尺度我們也要就是合理不是 你是主管機關本席現在強調說你是主管機關所以說你不能說新聞媒體另外的尺度所以你新聞媒體要丟給NCC丟給速發部"},{"start":13325.177,"end":13352.599,"text":"這不應該嗎?我們的投顧的這個我們是不是事後跟您報告我想待會兒可以說明一下好不好?我覺得 主委重點在於是你們的態度問題不會把這個ETF當成不是金管會的事情嗎?是我們的問題是 是你們的問題所以說才應該有積極的作為去了解說現在市場上的狀況以及你們應該要怎麼樣來做一個更健全整個市場的機制才對有 現在的狀況就是網紅了請對"},{"start":13354.58,"end":13360.024,"text":"會後來我辦公室好 了解可以嗎好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝孟愷委員質詢接著我們請王世堅委員質詢主席有請金管委黃主委有請黃主委市委好那個"},{"start":13383.163,"end":13410.012,"text":"黃主任我今天不跟你談ETF這已經談了很多我下次再救教你我談另外一個我個人覺得是蠻嚴重的問題就是說我們金管會對實際已經在經營融資的這三家註定公司我用八個字形容就是自廢武功該管不管"},{"start":13411.409,"end":13433.685,"text":"這就是金管會現在的情況如果根據銀行法第29條非銀行不得執行銀行相關的這些業務那你也很清楚你們金管會的組織法第二條第三條金管會就是掌管我們國內金融公司銀行業保險業這個"},{"start":13437.173,"end":13458.05,"text":"期貨證券等等那你們對於這些行業他們的設立以及管理這都是在你們執掌的範圍內你非常清楚嘛不是嗎那麼這三家中租抵合合論跟育融"},{"start":13459.232,"end":13486.328,"text":"他們現在放款的金額來源還不是他們自有資金他們還是大量的從我們的銀行業來融資他們跟38家銀行融資低利那麼高利貸放款給需要的消費者這金額多大"},{"start":13487.591,"end":13516.266,"text":"那個黃主任我私下跟金管會講過啊光是中租敵核向銀行借的就高達2396億天啊然後核潤不遑多讓啦大概他一半980億另外這一家裕融他可能後台很硬嘛"},{"start":13517.759,"end":13541.036,"text":"他連金額都懶得申報啦這也是我要求金管委員你們要下去查查的他們實質經營銀行當中最重要的融資的項目結果他佔盡我們全體我們國人辛苦的存款他們佔盡這些便宜"},{"start":13543.578,"end":13571.869,"text":"他們便於形式由銀行的手中取得低利的融資再去放高利貸結果金管委放任這個事情不管6年前中央銀行他們就有做出一些調查一些報告也提供給我們金管委啊2018年6年前中央銀行調查的結果"},{"start":13572.987,"end":13601.189,"text":"全世界各國多數這樣子做BMPL做這樣租賃的行業公司都是由他們國家之內像我們金管會這樣子的單位他們在管理由公部門的金融管理機關在管理所以我不懂啊我們金管會有那麼多專業的金融人士"},{"start":13602.728,"end":13626.392,"text":"我們有專業的這麼多的人才我們才能夠經常性的去對這些實質在金融放款業務的這些公司去做查查不是這樣嗎金管委是全國最多這一部分的專業人士結果你們放任不管"},{"start":13628.28,"end":13646.355,"text":"上次我質詢的時候也虧我們另外一位召集人還跟我說質詢完以後他跟我說這個部分經濟不管我去查一下這是什麼經濟不管經濟不管的是公司法我們臺灣有100萬公司100萬家公司"},{"start":13649.023,"end":13674.292,"text":"這三家這麼重大金額的經濟部管它只能管百萬分之三而且是公司法那在管什麼管所以儘管我現在這個不管的做法我認為就推卸責任了避重就輕把它推給經濟部經濟部我們實質去問他也一問三不知啊所以那個黃主委"},{"start":13678.871,"end":13701.392,"text":"我希望你今天就能夠正式答覆我到底你們管是不管啦基於事權統一基於金管會應該對我們國內做這樣子銀行業務的公司本來就應該要納管不是這樣嗎黃主委你的看法呢"},{"start":13702.402,"end":13725.669,"text":"委員是不是可以給我一點時間回覆您報告第一點我想第一次拜會您對金融事務的瞭解是非常尊敬所以我以下回答如果有跟您的想法不一樣的地方請您多包涵第一點這個人資公司是不是專屬銀行業務其實銀行法29條其實重點是吸收存款對不特定多數人吸收存款那是專屬業務"},{"start":13726.989,"end":13748.848,"text":"放款不是銀行的專屬業務這個就是漏洞這個我不會另外提要求法但是但是放款跟存款是一體兩面的業務啊他們就是鑽這個漏洞我認為這就是立法上這一個疏忽那讓大家有話講不是這樣嗎你請說"},{"start":13751.47,"end":13756.813,"text":"經濟部公司登記中有這種公司業務有這種融資行為的有6800多家"},{"start":13761.39,"end":13781.847,"text":"這就是現在的現況現在就沒有說融資一定是專屬銀行業務然後跟你回答您垂詢的這幾家所謂的大型的融資公司我們管不管我跟您報告在2016、2017的時候它的洗錢房子就已經由主管機關在管融資性住院公司是我們在管"},{"start":13782.668,"end":13794.64,"text":"第二 去年年初大家談BNPL的時候我們就找最大的那家中蘇公中蘇迪河來我說你們做這件事情一定要好好去做我們把銀行做"},{"start":13795.7,"end":13816.522,"text":"做這種授信的規則弄了一個租賃做BNPL的原則給他請你在租賃公會通過請各租賃公司去遵循這是第二件事第三點最近網路上那個影片出來之後我們約談了四家上市櫃公司的這種大型租賃公司兩個禮拜前我們開了一個會議"},{"start":13818.064,"end":13838.659,"text":"要求因為都是上市櫃要求交易所櫃買中心訂一個內控準則由金管會提供一個專業的內控準則要求這4家公司訂在自己的規定中怎麼樣去做這種尤其對年輕人的壽性租賃業務年底之前交易所櫃買中心去做內控查核第二點"},{"start":13840.004,"end":13855.268,"text":"不會 剛才這一點齁剛才這一點我如果兩個字簡單講你們就是要求他們這些租賃公司兩個字自律就對啦不是內控不是自律喔內控要報告怎麼內控怎麼管理這樣子已經"},{"start":13857.589,"end":13876.609,"text":"到了已經到金融怪獸這麼龐大的金融怪獸你竟然只要求他自律天啊他律都律不住了不是嗎報告委員那個內控是要年底前交易所要去查核的不是指自律第二點"},{"start":13878.496,"end":13901.836,"text":"我們會要求再訂一個完整的租賃公司做這種您關心對這種年輕人的這種授信的原則要求在公會中要求他們去遵循最重要您提到這些租賃公司的資金來源來自於金融機構票券公司銀行局也會去跟這些這就是我覺得最莫名其妙的嘛他自家的錢去借"},{"start":13902.765,"end":13931.085,"text":"那還比較沒話講如果他是大量的如果把裕榮加進去我保守估計這三家等於五千億啦來自我們存款大眾存到銀行的錢被銀行大剌剌的用人情的方式低利借給這三家超大的金融怪獸租賃公司讓他們去放高利貸如果這樣子的放款是對的的話"},{"start":13932.026,"end":13959.472,"text":"那你銀行來做就好啊消費性貸款銀行直接可以做嘛銀行等於變相圖利了這三家租賃怪獸不是這樣嗎因為時間有限我跟你講我認為的最可怕還有另外一個問題就是四個字超額授信啊你知道他們如何強大我們現在這一代的青年人嗎他們利用他們剛出社會那"},{"start":13961.806,"end":13980.428,"text":"買車啦買其他消費品買一部80萬的車借他100萬你車子都不用自己出錢還20萬給你零用金結果這些是高額的利息跟超高額的違約金還有父母金擔保啊"},{"start":13981.369,"end":14005.708,"text":"青年人還有30年的工作餘命啊他們也不怕討不到那這些公司他們因為他假借他因為他不是銀行嘛所以他就找這個討債公司來討現在目前社會的情況是這個樣子所以超額授信這個我想你與金管會你這麼資深的金融專業來講"},{"start":14007.082,"end":14026.16,"text":"超額授信是所有銀行業、金融機構最忌諱的事情結果現在我們眼睜睜的看這三家租賃怪獸他們每天在做超額授信的事在強害我們社會的青年朋友們"},{"start":14027.523,"end":14044.682,"text":"法委員你宇宙新廠的指示我們都會去處理尤其你講到對於年輕人的授信超額部分我們會去處理我跟您報告他們用這個超額授信來誘惑年輕人嘛是 我想 委員主席啊 抱歉主席我再30秒就好所以喔 我要求你這樣啦警訊廠我們銀行"},{"start":14048.073,"end":14068.344,"text":"以什麼樣的名義貸款給這三家租賃公司這五千億的貸款銀行的融資融資給這三家金融怪獸租賃業是什麼樣的名義查這些放款融資有沒有中間不當的"},{"start":14071.498,"end":14072.139,"text":"有請黃主委跟閻副總裁"},{"start":14101.388,"end":14129.687,"text":"委員好好久不見主委好副總裁好很感謝這個昭偉是有非常先見之明安排了今天這樣的一個題目我想最近在關鍵字當中真的確實我身邊很多過去不在乎金融理財的朋友都會在群組裡面討論那就是所謂這個高配息的ETF到底應該買所以我相信以這兩黨來說的話不知道金管會這裡"},{"start":14130.848,"end":14155.043,"text":"了不了解這兩檔就是所謂的高配息的ETF他們在近期當中大概募集了多少的資金我是不是同仁能夠有知道來報告一下那個統一那檔好像5、600億吧大概是一個是5、600億那另外一檔呢5、3、1那那個這一檔我不曉得9、40多少應該有超過1000多億對1000、2000"},{"start":14159.47,"end":14166.176,"text":"同言講好還沒有統計是不是數字還沒有出來因為他們是錄製到15號嘛 對不對還是我們的這個證交所有答案大概是1700億左右1700然後再加500這樣至少有2000多億現在會進入我們的國內的市場當中各位我們過去其實不只一次在聊這個話題就是說臺灣的這個投資性的商品"},{"start":14185.413,"end":14191.342,"text":"其實不夠多尤其是投資國內把錢留在國內很多時候我們賺進來的錢可能都是買國外開發的這樣的一個商品如果是這樣的話就整體來說就金管會的立場覺得這是一個好的現象嗎"},{"start":14203.283,"end":14223.334,"text":"我覺得只要這個商品充分告知客戶這個資訊也了解客戶的屬性我覺得這就是我覺得這沒有什麼特別要去所謂大家關心會打壓的問題不會好 謝謝主委我要請嚴副總裁的就是說剛剛有講到大概一個是500多億一個是大概有1700億所以至少會有2200億"},{"start":14225.675,"end":14239.641,"text":"的資金進入臺灣的市場那麼過去其實我們都一直擔憂就是國內投資性的商品不夠以至於就會來做房市那麼今天我們的題目也就講過了希望他們避免炒房那麼問題是很多人在質疑為什麼會突然間兩黨號稱高息的ETF進入市場之後大家好像錢都掏出來了"},{"start":14253.126,"end":14273.198,"text":"是不是過去因為利息過低的關係以至於大家甚至於有出現有人解定存又或者是去用房子去借貸然後換取更多的這個可運用的資金來賺這個利息之間的差價那麼央行有這樣的疑慮嗎或央行有這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":14277.595,"end":14301.056,"text":"報告委員因為您提的這個臺灣資金的這種長期的剩餘問題其實也跟我們過去以來的超額儲蓄或者是經常算順差有很大的關係在面臨這種情況之下其實我們一直在鼓勵我們賺到那麼多錢要充分的對外投資對內投資這是我們過去堅持的一個看法好"},{"start":14301.82,"end":14320.603,"text":"副總裁我的言下之意就是說這2200億至少進入了我們的市場之後當然剛剛主委所說的是沒有好或壞只要是一個正確的投資管道訊息明確揭露讓投資人知道他是一個投資不是一個投機都好"},{"start":14321.164,"end":14341.094,"text":"但是他是不是也面對了我們所謂因為過去的整體銀行的利率過低以至於大家突然間覺得哇如果真的有所謂年化利率10%哇那這樣子真的要趕快來解定存或者是趕快用房貸多押一點出來做投資這個是不是央行必須要去思考的問題呢"},{"start":14343.356,"end":14367.93,"text":"我想我們在做利率政策的時候我們當然會考慮到當前的那個國內的流動性的問題剛才我的資料已經顯示就是說我們從銀行的角度去看到流動性其實銀行我們對銀行的觀察或者是我們自己觀察到的流動性其實是沒有想像中的那麼的嚴重譬如說我們的M2已經開始下降蠻多了"},{"start":14370.182,"end":14394.192,"text":"我感覺上這個總裁並沒有真的回復我的問題不過沒有關係也許會後我請這個昭緯再幫我來追一下但是我想要因為現在變成外委員會時間有限要請主委主委剛剛其實蠻多前面的這些立法院同仁都已經問了那麼其實我比較在乎的就是您在第11頁也明確的寫到很多的委員都問到了就是有關於財經網紅"},{"start":14397.113,"end":14426.029,"text":"透過付費方式來進行置入而你也提到了11月3號欸113年就是今年的6月底前會完成這個所謂的自律規範是交由工會來做那麼工會在訂定這樣的規範的時候是他們自家人自己關起門來訂定嗎還是會有專業的人士我舉一個例子喔您先聽聽看再來回應我現在很多網紅的行銷方式其實大略有兩種一種是他是知識型的網紅"},{"start":14426.909,"end":14439.016,"text":"他幫你來做研析解析他會提到各種不一樣的金融商品如何的狀況如何的投資另外一種他不是知識型的網紅他就是一個網紅他可能講生活講娛樂講旅遊但是他突然間會有個插播的廣告進來"},{"start":14446.82,"end":14455.13,"text":"然後他告訴你說有現在這樣的商品要開賣你用我底下的連結可以省手續費或是可以有什麼揭滅有什麼優惠碼那這兩者之間我現在做這樣的形容主委你覺得哪一個妥當哪一個不妥"},{"start":14465.342,"end":14488.619,"text":"但是這個樣態都是叫做知識型都是叫做網紅都是經濟網紅喔它也可能都是網紅行銷喔可是樣態就不一樣囉您理解我的意思嗎我了解我們在做規範的時候又會很細緻不可以一竿子把所有的都歸類一類是特別也會請教了解網紅生態的專家一起去討論"},{"start":14489.5,"end":14507.65,"text":"好 那麼我會期待說在這樣的一個規範出來之前我們不要一竿子打翻全傳人但是呢必須在這個樣態的細緻上面要有所區分因為本席過去非常在乎的就是有關於這個網路的行銷面過去我們都知道電視台是連一個個股去講解"},{"start":14508.45,"end":14523.36,"text":"或是任何一支商品去講解那都要罰大錢的但是因為網路本身因為法規不足的關係那麼如何杜絕然後再來我也期許金管會要利用這個機會大家既然有興趣要發動全民的金融科普"},{"start":14524.461,"end":14538.212,"text":"從金管會這邊釋出正確的管道包括相關的金融原訓院等等我們可以的旗下的管道都好好的來把正確的金融知識傳達出去好嗎我們在委員期待去努力謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林副委員質詢接下來我們請 牛許廷 牛委員質詢"},{"start":14551.32,"end":14556.886,"text":"好 謝謝主席金管會央行有請有請黃主委以及議員副總裁"},{"start":14558.479,"end":14585.399,"text":"委員恭喜您高票當選謝謝辛苦了今天財政委員會我們第一次來質詢當然是年輕世代非常關心的一個問題就是說熱錢的流動導致後續的一些影響最近當然新聞上各式各樣的產品推陳出新顯然我們的超額儲蓄率也越來越高我們就直接進入主題超額儲蓄理論上來講等於是"},{"start":14586.38,"end":14603.908,"text":"一個國家如果要健全運作的話我們當然希望這個超額儲蓄能夠被有效利用而不是在那個地方去做閒置那當然你的報告裡面有寫看起來到2023年好像有稍微控制住但是根據主計總署的資料2024的超額儲蓄也是預估值會達到三兆八千四百億元"},{"start":14604.588,"end":14621.154,"text":"又再一次的創了歷史新高所謂超額儲蓄是儲蓄跟投資的差額啦超額儲蓄越多閒置資金其實就越多那政府當然有責任剛剛我有講嘛希望應該讓它合理的導引到投資市場那目前政府對這一塊這個超額儲蓄這一塊的掌握是怎麼樣央行說明應該比較清楚吧對不對那個報告委員因為我們"},{"start":14629.772,"end":14635.596,"text":"其實這個議題一直存在我們對外也講過很多次就是說"},{"start":14636.846,"end":14658.878,"text":"超額儲蓄的問題跟我們的經常順差有關那為了處理經常順差問題跟我們的資金外流也有關所以我們在鼓勵鼓勵我們的超額儲蓄降低或者是經常順差的那種運用的時候我們在報告裡面提了三個大方向除了國內外的實體投資之外我們也希望引導"},{"start":14660.219,"end":14662.461,"text":"中央銀行分別有限公司林董事長有限公司林董事長"},{"start":14676.48,"end":14690.288,"text":"所以大概分成三個部分嘛一個是希望企業繼續擴產也好或者是多角化經營做實體投資第二個希望家戶的儲蓄可以有效利用嘛第三個是希望可以協助中央政府的重大基礎建設這是三個方向對不對我們目前的超額投資最大比例的是在哪裡"},{"start":14692.199,"end":14707.655,"text":"如果根據我們的資料主技術的資料其實是家庭部門是我們最大的超額儲蓄的沒有我就本期資料了解是企業比較多吧應該是企業的超額儲蓄是比較多的吧沒有企業在傳統上企業應該是借錢來去投資的"},{"start":14709.096,"end":14728.733,"text":"企業不應該成為超額儲蓄的資金提供者但是您提到一個關鍵問題我們觀察到從民國98年以後就是金融危機以來我們的企業其實是儲蓄的超額儲蓄的提供者在過去我們的企業是超額儲蓄的"},{"start":14729.414,"end":14754.736,"text":"理論上是需求者嘛但現在變提供者嘛那問題就出在這裡嘛這本集今天質詢這個的重點就是這個我們應該要合理導引嘛我們當然希望不管是產業升級也好多角化投資也好本來被認定成夕陽產業的要因為有這樣子的一些資本來做新創或者是轉型這個才是國家想要看到的方向但目前為止就如同剛剛副總裁所講的看起來企業不但沒有成為超額儲蓄的需求者反而成為了提供者這就是問題嘛"},{"start":14756.036,"end":14779.845,"text":"我們在基層觀察到的更有勝者其實很多的企業因為有這樣子的游離資金結果幹嘛跑去自產買土地炒房地產我覺得這是一大危機因為所有的熱錢不管是外資的熱錢內資的熱錢如果都集中在金融市場然後甚至不動產也變成金融商品的話我想對於年輕世代對於台灣的居住品質來講這是很大的一個衝擊所以我們希望政府在這一部分做有效的導引"},{"start":14781.075,"end":14789.064,"text":"我們如何導引這筆錢去到對的地方應該是輔導產業的升級創造更多的就業機會才是應該要做的方向我們現在有哪些廚藝可以做這個事"},{"start":14791.257,"end":14820.145,"text":"那個報告委員其實過去幾年政府在很多的公共建設投資或者是跟民間的那種鼓勵民間投資也做了很多的很多的措施在推動這一方面的進展因為時間有限這一部分請會後提供資料我當然是在這邊要求你們是瞭解錢的流向的當然要跨部的協調讓這筆錢用在對的地方這第一個第二個是我們的黃仁勳先生也不幸中標變成這個投資商品的介紹者"},{"start":14821.045,"end":14846.78,"text":"當然是要談一下這個投資詐騙金融商品的廣告亂象的這個問題這個內容我就不說了反正就是用名人代言然後拐資金變成龐氏騙局那金管會有收集這個從2023年4月到今年3月一年有2萬9千件的投資詐騙廣告後來當然也有一定的處遇措施這個本席理解比如說所謂的廣告實名制但現在的廣告實名制的問題叫上有政策下有對策這些人現在"},{"start":14847.5,"end":14854.066,"text":"請問我們的政府機關用什麼樣的方式來規避這樣的行為來阻止這樣子的規避行為的確啦因為像報告最近電子簽章法通過都可以有助於實名制不過你提的這個心態一樣因為我們正在跟跨部會定打詐法那當然"},{"start":14871.34,"end":14895.06,"text":"老實講境外東西其實真的很難去規範但是看是不是能在打詐法上面能夠做一些調整能夠涵蓋這些不當的行為我相信這很多不管是立法委員也好或是行政院應該對於這個東西是高度重視那我會作為主管監理機關相關的一些意見盡量來做收集盡量來做提供讓這些法規健全的過程中有更多的專業意見可以嗎也請委員多指導"},{"start":14896.201,"end":14914.674,"text":"那另外一個是大部分現在去年通過叫投信投顧法修正案就是要阻絕這樣的事情然後針對的是大型平台比如說Google跟Meta對不對但問題是我覺得這有殺傷力恐怕不是Google跟Meta因為大家辨別的能力在上升但私人的LINE的群組是個大的問題這一部分有什麼方法可以阻止嗎"},{"start":14915.523,"end":14938.901,"text":"我跟委員報告當初修投信投物法Google Meta由金管會管也都是為了打詐其實理論上Google Meta平台理論上不是金管會要管的那LINE當時並沒有規範到是金管會管這可能是要統一去做一個數位平台的管理要在另外對我們希望我們今天把這個問題提出來就是不是只有大平台當然大平台先走但是"},{"start":14939.301,"end":14958.317,"text":"到真正有殺傷鏈這部分你也要全面管管理這是一個跨部會的工作好不好但是希望你們就積極的提供意見跟專業的處置方式好不好希望慢慢來解決這件事情可以嗎好感謝委員指導好兩位辛苦了謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員的質詢接著我們鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在"},{"start":14958.777,"end":14970.899,"text":"接著我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接著我們謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在接著我們鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接著我們請徐曉欣委員質詢謝謝主席那我想我們有請這個金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":14990.595,"end":15017.17,"text":"委員恭喜您高票當選謝謝主委我們大家對於ETF都相當的關心那也會討論到金管會的整個監督的這個相關的職責那我們就舉2020年發生的一件事情來跟您做一個就教討論也就是當時元大的這個原油ETF的一個問題那簡單來說當時元大我們看到在2020年的時候有一個負油價之亂"},{"start":15018.351,"end":15045.343,"text":"那負油價之亂當時針對ETF的討論就非常的多那主要呢在2020年4月20號因為新冠疫情在全球爆發所以石油價格首次的跌入了負數區間那當時WTI也就是西德州原油的石油價格一開始它暴跌到負38塊美元那按照規定呢ETF淨值為負值的時候主委我們的投信需要做怎樣的一些處置給投資人"},{"start":15048.732,"end":15063.811,"text":"當時是沒有什麼下市的這些特別的沒有那個所謂通過股東會要去下市的規定當時好像就是公告之後就後來因為低於那個指標之後後來好像就下市了"},{"start":15065.272,"end":15087.131,"text":"對 這個確實當時的狀況是這樣但是我們看到過程當中元大投信的問題他那時候為了因應這個狀況我們看下一張圖他們把這個石油期貨自行改成遠艙1.2倍等同於他是鎖死了淨值於0.5元不再連動這個油價的漲跌我要問一下主委這樣子的做法是合法合規的嗎"},{"start":15089.58,"end":15108.794,"text":"我必須要說您非常專業拿這個個案來問我我真的要直接送你合不合法我現在真的記憶記不到那麼清楚但是當時是有裁罰就對了我知道有裁罰我等等會講但總之呢這個會造成一個狀況就是他用調整合約的方式呢他等同於是什麼因為他"},{"start":15109.915,"end":15138.729,"text":"後續你看到這個圖他雖然一開始是跌的但他後來反彈了他反彈上去的狀況可是我們的淨值已經鎖死了所以變成你看下面那條橘色的線原大S&P它原油完全沒有上漲照理來說WTI它往上飆升它本來跌下來的時候你看它是一起跌結果它在2月12號2020年12月它反鎖死這件事情之後4月21號對不起鎖死之後它分離了"},{"start":15139.569,"end":15164.639,"text":"變成後續WTI它上漲的時候元大它也沒有上漲這發生一個狀況是又有一個這個投資人不知道所以他以為還是兩倍連動所以他們不斷追買然後呢又有禁止低於兩塊錢要下市的規定它等於在4月21號買進的投資人已經注定用高價去購買一個必然虧損下市的產品我們要問這種狀況對投資人是公平的嗎"},{"start":15167.847,"end":15192.142,"text":"我記得啦這個大概詳細我這邊沒辦法講的那麼精確的確他改免倉所禁止當時是有爭議的那後來在裁罰上也列入了一個內容但是我覺得更重要就是說這種元大石油障礙這種槓桿型他是屬於避險短期操作時不太適合做長期的投資他在篩選投資人的時候當時也有一些需要去調整的地方"},{"start":15192.642,"end":15216.743,"text":"好那你們如果因為我要問的是說當時4月21號元大改原倉1.2億被鎖禁止的時候你們知不知情因為問題是如果你們知情但是你們沒有立刻的糾正或是阻止散戶去購買那這樣的話你們明明知道散戶如果這時候買進他一定會虧損下市可是我們卻沒有設定一個保護投資者權益的最後只輕輕的罰了元大60萬"},{"start":15217.964,"end":15238.215,"text":"那對於投資者來說他可能就就是真的是賠盡自己的身家都有可能做這樣的狀況然後我們後來也知道元大有四大你們今晚會有提出四大要點今天時間不夠我不一一講那裁罰他60萬我要問的是後續我們金管會對類似這樣子的情況我們有沒有考慮有怎麼樣的一個精進作為"},{"start":15239.403,"end":15256.53,"text":"有,我因為時間有限我會後我們會跟您報告但是後面對於那個他達到一定指標他要下市的那些程序包括那個那個叫分割反分割這些都有做一些規範那因為時間有限我怕我講的不正確"},{"start":15257.67,"end":15285.431,"text":"好那你會後麻煩給我報告那最後我要表達的說當時有講說啊什麼如果有例外狀況的話可以調整契約等等的過去的例外狀況可能在ETF來說比方說啦泰國紅山軍抗議事件造成休止這是例外狀況沒有錯可是這是什麼例外狀況啊這基本上就是投信可能會因為這樣賠錢然後呢就變成是他反過頭來鎖死就欺騙公坑殺了散戶所以我們希望第一個"},{"start":15285.891,"end":15304.331,"text":"金管會未來的策進作為金管會有沒有財閥過輕的問題以及袁大升為他全臺灣發行ETF的投信當中占比規模最大的那未來我們在管理的部分要如何進行麻煩我們主委再提供我們更精確的說明好嗎我們會照委員的提示去處理謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":15307.614,"end":15325.784,"text":"謝謝我們徐小琴委員的質詢接著我們徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在接著我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在接著我們游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在接著我們鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接著我們請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員也不在好"},{"start":15326.877,"end":15355.697,"text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本日會議做如下的決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員諮詢及為即答覆或請補充資訊請金管會及央行於一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定三、本日會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面諮詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理休息"},{"start":15361.888,"end":15362.408,"text":"王國雄議員"},{"start":15387.141,"end":15387.762,"text":"共互開國難不是國難是開國難"}]}},{"id":"150050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac96771b56c1647a925cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6611a6d135deb2ea05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"16:45:19 - 16:54:27","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":548,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:54:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2399,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（16時45分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長。"],["主席：好，我們請部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長好，部長辛苦了，這個客套話我們就不說了。這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受，也非常的難過，但本席認為除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外，從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的，因此在今天的質詢裡面提出了若干問題來跟部長做一下探討。從這個個案來看，其實可以看到：首先是社會安全網的漏洞，第二個是社工的人力荒，第三個是保母證照的審核跟收出養的制度。今天因為時間有限的關係，我把重點放在這個收出養的制度部分，希望部長可以好好回答，希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。","這個個案的前保母有意願收養，但是被制度排除於外，原因大概是什麼，是不是請部長先說明一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個事情當初他被排除的原因何在，我其實並沒有那麼清楚，不過聽聞有一說他是單親，但若是單親，如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話，並不一定就是作為排除的原因。但是重點可能是，如果原來那個保母要做收養人是一件事情，但是如果原來那個保母想要繼續照顧，就是收養前的照顧，那又是另外一件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛看你後面要來支援的人好像有點不同的意見，你要不要補充一下？沒關係。"],["簡署長慧娟：沒有。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒事？所以部長講的是對的，因為單親的關係嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是？他講因為單親的關係，你說不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：有聽到這樣的一個訊息……"],["簡署長慧娟：不是那麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以請你補充嘛！我們要把事情講清楚比較重要，好不好？沒關係，這都是過程中的小事，把事情講清楚比較重要。"],["簡署長慧娟：據我所知就是兒盟考量跟他合作的一個關係，原來的周姓保母因為沒有合作過啦，所以會有一些的考量。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為那個就不是收養的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！我現在講個案問題，從個案看通案的狀況是這樣，根據衛福部112年的資料統計，大概有669位等待收養的孩童，其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家，即便有家庭願意收養，這中間的流程、還有一些成本、包含一些媒合的過程等等，在在都造成這個東西的阻力。我想請問一下，這669位等待收養的孩童，其中五百多位，接近八、九成沒有辦法成功出養的一個狀況，是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我是不是請……"],["簡署長慧娟：我想臺灣的收出養部分，國人會比較習慣想要收比較小的小孩，可是我們對於這些兒少的評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩，還有，國人在收養的時候，如果他有一些身體上或者是身心障礙的狀況，其實國人也不太願意去收養。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你以我們剛剛那個數字來講，六百多人中有五百多人，很多是因年紀的關係、特殊境遇的關係，以至於無人收養，所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題，是嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是，不是那麼單純是不是無人要去收養，其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟收養人、收養家庭之間的一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有磨合？我理解政府作為把關的單位當然是要嚴謹，否則萬一收出養後在家裡面處得不愉快，他回過頭來要究責的話，大家的壓力可能會很大，這一點本席完全願意理解。但以這個案例來講，它證明了一件事，就是如果我們要把這個收出養的方式交給民間自行處理，這個孩童無人照顧的問題，我們把這個跟防賊一樣，大家非常小心、非常謹慎，可是今天這個兒虐案的事實證明，政府端在處理的時候都還是會發生這樣的悲劇。所以這個流程和成本，某些研究調查及一些報導顯示，它中間的流程複雜、太過嚴格，甚至要花成本，例如送件的費用、後續追蹤的費用，還要跑到在地去上課，在這樣的案件發生之後，這一些的門檻有沒有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這一個部分的話，這些所謂收出養後來沒有媒合成功的案例的分類，我想我們可以再來做一個資料的分析。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情，本席認為這樣的背後，通案的問題要一次解決，免得社會安全網裡面，這裡破一個洞，那裡破一個洞，永遠補個案補不完。但你從通案的角度、制度的角度來看能不能讓這個體系更完善，這是今天本席問這個題目非常重要的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以針對收出養的部分，到底原因是什麼，是不是會後提供完整的資料來做報告，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心。","再來，回到這個個案來講，在等待出養的過程之中，就剛好是一個三不管的地方，以至於他被迫要以保母照顧的方式來處理而不是類似寄養家庭或是安置的邏輯來處理，其量能跟強度其實就是不夠的，所以才會造成今天這樣子的一個問題，這個部分會不會做檢討跟修正？"],["薛部長瑞元：會，目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是循著委託安置的方向來做，因為已經有這個制度在那裡。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我現在很好奇，就以這個個案來講，既然在前面是有類似準寄養的一個狀態，剛剛在答詢的過程中，其實你有說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外，意願也是很大的一個問題，像這種有意願的，為什麼不能成全這一段緣分？"],["薛部長瑞元：是啦，所以這部分的話，剛剛委員問到的前一個保母，他是有兩件事情，一個是他想繼續照顧，第二個是他想要收養，也許想要收養的部分，評估起來他……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在問題就是這樣，如果我們在收出養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了，那有意願提供的、有意願接手的，是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準或者是願意去成全此事？我們如果擔心孩子送不出去、沒有人收養，像這種在中間照顧的時候，也許照顧得很不錯、很投緣，那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養，這樣會不會比較能避免這樣子的狀況發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話……"],["簡署長慧娟：跟委員報告一下，其實如果他已經成為寄養這樣的狀態，其實我們是有一個程序，寄養可以轉收養，而且其程序是會比較簡便，然後是共同去做一個審查的。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！以這個案例來講，為什麼沒有走這樣子的一個流程？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是寄養，兒盟是把他交給保母去照顧。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我的意思是，不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼，如果他有這樣子的意願的時候，是不是應該多給他們一些機會？方向上是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以剛剛跟委員報告，我們未來要改的就是委託安置，委託安置的意思就是由地方的社政主管機關介入來決定他要被送到寄養家庭或者是安置機構，又或者是他選擇的保母。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得這部分還是要藉由這個個案來看通案，既然這六百多位孩子要等待出養，我們的目標理應是要盡量讓他找到幸福的家庭，對不對？這中間的過程能不能從這個案子裡面借鏡到可以改善的地方，政策的細節上要怎麼做修正？中間的空窗期怎麼來做彌補？我希望這一些能有一份專門的報告，好不好？不只給本席做參考，當然也給今天有關心這件事情的委員做參考。可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為今天有要求我們重做報告，然後我剛剛也答應一個禮拜之內會把……"],["牛委員煦庭：把這部分也納進報告的範圍，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","接下來我們請吳秉叡。吳秉叡、吳秉叡委員不在。","今天會議的詢答全部都已經結束，這一次會議的討論是非常有意義的，因為透過一整天的討論，不同的委員從不同的角度都給衛福部不同的建議，剛剛部長也承諾在一週後會把衛福部針對從這次個案到整個系統的檢討有一個非常詳細、完整的報告跟說明，我們希望衛福部在這個部分可以把所有委員的意見，還有好的未來改革方向都納入，我們的目的只有一個，就是讓我們的社會安全網可以更強韌，讓我們用集體的力量來防止下一個兒虐的悲劇再發生。","委員吳春城、顏寬恒、沈伯洋、林德福、陳冠廷、張雅琳、葉元之、羅智強所提書面質詢列入紀錄、刊登公報。"],["委員吳春城書面質詢：","邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","一、今（0318）衛生福利部提出之「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」，衛福部有提出要「強化社政及衛政網路合作」：地方社政主管機關對育有未滿3歲子女的脆弱家庭、接受政府委託安置及出養兒童、受監護兒童，應造冊予衛生主管機關，以利安排專責醫師關注兒童身心發展與受照顧狀況。","本席認為衛福部提供的文字過於空泛，請進一步提供書面資料說明「強化社政及衛政網路合作」的具體作為，書面資料應包含：至今已召開之中央部會與地方政府工作會議以及與基層醫療代表召開「幼兒專責醫師計畫」的溝通會議資料及記錄。"],["委員顏寬恒書面質詢：","「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」專案報告","一、衛生福利部報告中稱，行政院於107年核定強化社會安全網（下稱社安網）第一期計畫（107-109年），中央部會、地方政府及民間團體公私協力，3年投入近新臺幣（以下同）70億元。為強化社安網政策觸及面向與涵蓋範圍，立基於第一期計畫基礎建構，提出第二期計畫（110-114年），提升社會安全網各體系量能。第二期計畫預計5年將投入407億餘元。經費逐年增加，但類似社會安全問題仍層出不窮，相關部會必須檢討經費支出，是否能夠有效達成目標，將經費使用極大化。","二、檢討報告中，將收出養前安置服務、收出養評估機制、提供全日托之居家托育人員訪視頻率、居家托育服務人員之監督、對收出養媒合機構之監督與服務提供審查等業務都賦予地方政府，勢必加重地方政府經費負擔與實施人力負擔，在未來經費挹注上是否有完整的規劃？","三、近期發生兩起關於青少年及幼童的重大社會事件，首先是去年年底發生的新北市國三生遭同學砍殺、送醫急救後傷重不治案件；再來是台北市劉姓保母受兒福聯盟委託照顧新北1歲男童，涉嫌與胞妹凌虐男童致死，引發社會關注，兩起案件均面臨跨機關的業務，應檢討如何有效達成跨警政、社政、衛政等部會機關橫向聯繫，簡化通報機制、爭取每起個案中的黃金時間，避免憾事重演。"],["委員沈伯洋書面質詢：","依現行《兒童及少年權利與福利保障法》第15條之規定，從事收出養媒合服務，以經主管機關許可之財團法人、公私立兒童及少年安置、教養機構（以下統稱收出養媒合服務者）為限；收出養媒合服務者之資格條件、申請程序、許可之發給、撤銷與廢止許可、服務範圍、業務檢查與其管理等應遵行事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","惟查，現行出養前的安置停留期間約為半年至一年半不等，且多是交由收出養媒合服務者執行，但有關出養前的照顧與評估機制，卻欠缺明確指引或規定，僅能仰賴收出養媒合服務者之自律。是故，衛生福利部於本月12、15日召開檢討會議後，提出通盤檢討如下：(1)出養必要性改由地方政府評估、(2)收出養前安置服務由地方政府提供協助、(3)研商全日托之居家托育人員訪視頻率並訂定相關指引、(4)強化居家托育人員教育訓練並完善督導考核機制、(5)建立收出養媒合服務者之訪視機制及標準化流程、(6)強化地方社政主管機關之監督職責、(7)結合幼兒專責醫師共同關懷脆弱家庭未滿3歲兒童之發展、(8)強化地方政府分工整合機制、(9)檢討重大兒虐事件處理機制。","衛生福利部通盤檢討所提出之九點改革方向實屬刻不容緩、須立即執行之政策，惟考量部分政策事涉地方政府職權，須仰賴地方政府配合方能執行，而為確保兒少最佳利益並落實兒少權益之保障，於貫徹九點改革政策前，需由衛生福利部先行訂定相關指引，以資地方政府暨收出養媒合服務者遵循。","為有效監督政策改革之落實，爰要求衛生福利部應於兩週內，就事涉地方政府職權之相關改革，提出研商會議召集暨政策施行的期程規劃，並就過渡時期如何強化收出養前的安置服務暨訪視頻率，以及其後的相關修法計畫，提出書面報告予本席。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","社會安全網推動情形及策進作為","問題一","兒童是國家未來的主人翁，再過不久，4月4日兒童節即將到來，對於「受虐兒童」無法平安長大，本席深感不捨。","根據衛福部統計資料2019~2022年「虐待兒童」加害者共有4萬4,097位，其中身分是「保母」者共有97位，占0.2%的比率。","請「衛福部」與「社家署」說明一下，「虐待兒童加害者」哪一種類別最多？","今天我們齊聚一堂檢討「社會安全網」，不要搞錯對象，不要政黨惡鬥，「保母」是我們「社會安全網」重要的夥伴，有少數虐待兒童的保母，但有更多認真照顧兒童的保母，請問「衛福部」的看法為何？","問題二","本席也感謝第一線「社工師」勞心勞力，希望「社工師」們堅守岡位。社工不是「做功德」的，「補強社會安全網」不能分中央地方，讓社工朋友的工作環境得到改善，國家才能保護好每一個孩子。","本席希望未來「衛福部」討論行政院版修法時，要邀請社工、保母團體參與，聽聽基層第一線人員的心聲，讓政策的推動能更加完善，避免在冷氣房裡下決策，產生法令執行上的落差。","問題三","根據衛福部統計資料2019~2022年「0~11歲兒童主要死亡原因」，加害（他殺）累計共71名兒童死亡，本席知道「衛福部」有進行「兒童死亡原因回溯分析報告」，希望透過檢討來減少兒童死亡案例。","根據歷年「兒童死因分析」檢討，請問「衛福部」，此次幼童遭保母虐待致死，是「系統性問題」？還是「單一個案問題」？","「中央」會再給「地方政府」多少預算與人力去執行「加強訪視」與「幼兒專責醫師」等相關計畫？407億的「社會安全網2.0」夠支應嗎？「衛福部」是否會向「行政院」爭取超徵稅收挹注？","本席建議來自脆弱家庭、接受政府安置、出養12歲以下兒童，都該納入「專責醫師」關懷照顧。請問衛福部的看法為何？","問題四","本席肯定「兒福聯盟」過去在「兒少權益保護」上的努力，過去不管藍綠，不論是蔡英文總統、陳建仁院長擔任副總統時，賴清德副總統，都有參與過「兒福聯盟」的活動，也給予「兒福聯盟」一定的肯定。","根據「111年度收出養媒合服務者業務檢查結果」，「衛福部」認為「兒福聯盟」符合規定，請問衛福部，112年「業務檢查結果」還會認為「兒福聯盟」符合規定嗎？是否會受此事件影響？","「政務委員林萬億」說「兒童福利聯盟」沒有人力不足的問題，本席希望「衛福部」站在輔導的立場上，加強「兒福聯盟」外部督導體系，避免類似悲劇再次發生，請問「衛福部」的看法為何？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","議程：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告","一、一歲10個月男童遭虐致死，社工人力是否充足，訪視機制有無精進之處？","去年十二月，一名一歲男童遭保母虐待致死，我們很遺憾發生這樣的事情，也認為政府機關應當檢討整個環節，政府應當照顧孩童、政府應當保護孩童。","我們回顧整個案發經過，去年十二月二十四日男童因呼吸困難送醫後死亡，並發現有受虐跡象，然而自九月兒福聯盟送出養後，應當每月社工訪視，十二月為何沒有？若發現家訪遭推託，應當有所警戒，並積極聯繫準備訪視。而台北市社會局社工，於出養後也在九月進行第一次訪視，第二次訪視時間為何？十二月是否應當訪視？","部長，您認為社福單位的社工人力，是否充足？我們先不討論個案，若依一般案件，社會局的社工，在每一位受訪孩童家庭，每次訪視所花費的時間是多少？這樣的時間，夠不夠觀察整個照顧的關係？","我們知道訪查員並非僅有單一個案需要訪視，因此，社工人力的缺乏，應當也是一個值得探討的問題，若因人力不足，無法讓每位應受訪視者，受到完整的關注，未來這樣的疏忽還是會持續發生。","訪視的頻率、訪視的次數，若未來人力能加強，是否就有更多的量能作訪視，社工才能有更多的時間在每一位孩童身上，也才有可能在更多的訪視時間上發現問題，才能即時發現、即時預防。","此外，社工訪視制度是否有機會採取不預告訪視？在這個案例中，我們知道保母曾經婉拒兒福聯盟的社工訪視，這也讓預告訪視出現了一些疑問，社工是否可以看到最真實的一面，照顧者是否可以藉由事先預告，掩蓋、或是避免一些不想被社工注意的細節，因此，除了增加頻率外，若能透過隨機訪視的制度來瞭解真實的情形，也能從中發現一些細節，以預防類似的憾事發生。","因此，我們想詢問部長，現行的訪視機制，有無精進的部分？有沒有可能在一般訪視之外，也加入隨機訪視？","二、社工上銬爭議，警方衡量戒具使用，應評估比例原則，是否有其必要？","三月十二日，兒福聯盟社工於完成警詢筆錄後，警方將其上銬解送，然而現場有諸多記者等候，因此，社工上銬畫面也在第一時間被播出。","依刑事訴訟法第八十九條之一，執行拘提、逮捕或解送，得使用戒具，但不得逾必要之程度，且應注意被告或犯罪嫌疑人之身體及名譽，避免公然暴露其戒具，若認已無繼續使用之必要時，應即解除。","因此，在社工上銬爭議上，既然我們已經知道現場有記者等候，警方應當避免公然暴露其戒具，這也是刑事訴訟法上所規定的，也應注意被告或嫌疑人身體及名譽之維護，顯然警方並沒有做到，其次，是比例原則的問題，我們知道戒具的使用，不得作為懲罰的方式，在無脫逃、自傷、自殘等情形，審酌案件可衡量戒具使用。","在這個案件上，我們也看到台北市警察局也有表示上銬未符合比例原則，若警方認為無其必要性，那當初就應該避免使用。","署長，我們會這樣說，是希望未來任何的重大案件，都可以注意到這塊，因為，任何案件的嫌疑人都是無罪推定的，若無脫逃、自傷、自殘、甚至攻擊他的的情況下，都應考慮是否有其上銬必要，此外，即使依法上銬，也應盡量避免公然暴露，這是我們刑事訴訟法所規定的，我們應當遵守法規規範。","一旦這樣的事件發生，可能會模糊焦點、可能會出現不必要的爭議，這也是當初刑事訴訟法的立意，我們希望警政署可以從這次的案件中，檢討未來戒具的使用，刑事訴訟法及執行拘提逮捕解送使用戒具實施辦法皆有嚴謹的相關規定，應當避免這類的爭議出現。"],["委員張雅琳書面質詢：","一、針對居家托育人員訪視，現行由各地方政府自行規定是否約訪，為強化目前的居家托育人員管理強度，是否將該項規範正式納入法規規範，於目前研擬兒童托育法草案規範不約訪之條文，請衛福部研擬相關條文內容。","二、針對居家托育人員未來將依循「直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則」，其中針接受安置兒居家托育人員其托育費用將調整托育費用之金額，請衛福部邀請各縣市政府共商較為妥適的托育費用，並應考量與寄養家庭安置費用有所區隔。"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","有鑑於本月13日衛福部暫停兒福聯盟收出養業務，但該男童係去年12月24日離世，請衛福部於一周內回覆，從去年12月24日至今針對本案之具體作為。"],["委員羅智強書面質詢：","案由：本院委員羅智強，有鑑近期發生社會矚目之嚴重虐兒致死案件，衛福部所提「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」顯有不足，未有明確訂定未來精進及防範機制，難強化現行兒童收托照顧制度未盡之處，特向衛福部提出質詢。","說明：","在本次報告中提到「地方政府分工非中央政府權責，地方政府應明確跨科（室）案件分工合作機制；如涉有跨縣（市）爭議者，由中央協助釐清。」，然本案委託之兒聯盟是由中央單位所委託，難免會讓民眾感到中央單位，有刻意指地方政府分工不明確，撇清責任的觀感，應當針對中央與地方權責，邀集地方政府進行研議。","在衛福部保護服務司的統計中，從106年到112年上半年度的「兒童及少年保護─遭父母、照顧者等家庭成員施虐死亡之人數及原因」數據有歷年有14-29名不等的孩子，包含嚴重受虐死亡、嚴重疏忽死亡、殺子後自殺的狀況而離開人世。","但我們所見的統計僅有「家內受虐致死」，本次個案狀況卻是屬於家外，過去是否有類似統計？請在兩週內提供，近十年之家外受虐與受虐致死統計數量。","此外，在本次個案中，台北市政府於2023年12月25日接獲通報後，在12月25日、27日就曾二度向衛福部反應要啟動「重大兒虐檢討會議」，但衛福部先說不是家內施虐所以不開案，後來又說跨科室業務需要研議，再無回復。現行對於「重大兒虐檢討會議」的定義跟要求是什麼？後續檢討之機制為何，請一併彙整後，送本辦公室。","從衛福部所整理之時間表可發現，北市社會局在整個期間，沒有收到兒福聯盟的任何異常通報，當然北市社會局依規要一年訪視四次，在9月26日完成訪視後，接著的下一次是12月初。但在過程中，衛福部的是否有接收到來自兒福的通報，無論是9月26日第一次看到看到案童頭上瘀青，第二次安靜，較無精神，第三次有異常掉牙的情況。衛福部是否有接收到相關通報？","民進黨發言人指，男童死前理應前往查訪4次的台北市社會局只去了1次。但依居家式托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法第18條規定：首次訪視，應於收托後1個月內進行；提供全日、夜間托育服務者，「每年訪視4次」。","本案孩童9月始托，北市居服中心9月26日就前往訪視，並依中央政府各項指引評估，當次並無異狀；後續應由中央政府委託的兒福聯盟社工定期1個月訪視1次，了解兒童照顧狀況。前述所指，一年訪視4次，如果兒童在9月收托，也是要在12月之前完成四次訪視嗎？","【若收托家庭染疫，衛福部指導為何？】","外界有傳言，台北市居托中心原先預計12月中下旬原預計無預警訪視，但12月21日接獲保母主動通知同住家人確診訊息，所以延期，現在衛福部對於保母打給訪視員說有人確診，請問訪視員應該去，還是不應該去？","訪視員所訪視的對象，往往都是免疫力高敏感的群體，如果已經有接獲通知了，還要訪視員前往，本來就因為人力吃緊的訪視員因此病倒，反而造成整個體系的崩壞；甚而還有可能因為因為染疫，而造成連帶其他被訪視的個案受感染。衛服部現行提供給訪視員參考之指導原則為何？","【要求建立共訪機制】","衛福部所提送報告中，提及未來會強化「收出養媒合機構訪視機制：強化媒合機構之社工之專業知能及對兒童虐待之敏感度與辨識能力，並提升訪視頻率、建立訪視機制及標準化流程」，確實有助於本次系統性的缺失修復。","然而社工長期低薪過勞，又要承受沉重的心理壓力。近年來社工系學生實際投入社工領域工作的約只有25%。資深社工不斷離職、新進社工不願投入。各地方政府保護性社工現有人力只有合理員額5成，工作量無疑倍增。","有關「檢討重大兒虐事件處理機制：各級政府應明確分工，屬重大兒虐案件之主管權責應以負責保護服務體系之主管單位為主責」，在這邊提到的「保護服務體系之主管單位為主責」是指誰？是中央還是地方，這點還是要講清楚，不然又變成未來權責不清。","本次個案是新北市出養的孩子，由中央委託兒福聯盟，兒福聯盟找到保姆，保姆是在臺北市執業。希望能透過共訪機制，讓更多人能夠注意到問題，就可以避免這樣的事情發生。所以包括委託方、受託方、保姆轄管方，有共訪機制的建立，希望中央地方一起來做。","在共訪機制建立前，已要求社會局即刻提高訪視頻率，對於出養孩子在中繼受保姆托育，提高至每月訪視一次；對於全日托育，就是一整天都在保姆家的全日托育的情形，提升至每年至少6次。另外大家很關心保姆的領證、考核、評鑑以及家長推薦這樣的機制，也請衛福部跟地方社會局即刻來規劃。","另，未來針對家庭狀況較特殊、無依靠或家庭失能，沒有辦法即刻回到原生家庭等的孩子，除了讓保母成為出收養之前的中繼外，希望寄養家庭也能成為選項。臺北市已經修法提高對於寄養家庭的獎勵金，希望透過增加量能，讓更多人加入這個行列，發揮相關的功能。","請衛生福利部就上述所提事項，於兩周內將書面答覆送交本辦公室，並確實達成所提精進規劃，避免再有孩子淪為制度下的無辜犧牲者。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","謝謝今天出席的官員、關心的媒體朋友、所有的議事人員。我們今天開會時間比較長，那是為了讓我們的孩子得到更好的保護。","本次會議到此結束。現在散會。","散會（16時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":0.14909375000000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":0.28409375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.01534375,"end":19.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.825343750000002,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.31659375,"end":68.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.12159375,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.68221875,"end":81.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.45284375,"end":87.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.11846875,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.21534375,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.58221875000001,"end":105.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.75284375000001,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.60409375,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.26221875,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.12659375000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.19409375000001,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.64971875,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":123.85971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.65721875000001,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.79159375,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.84221875000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.31034375000002,"end":136.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.73534375,"end":138.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.45659375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.83596875,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.25784375,"end":141.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.64971875,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.96096875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.07909375,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.14659375000002,"end":151.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.19721875000002,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.99846875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.53409375,"end":156.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.12471875,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.46221875,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.00159375,"end":189.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.14909375000002,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.96721875,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.49409375000002,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.72909375,"end":205.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.42409375000003,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.77784375000002,"end":216.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.53721875000002,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.06409375,"end":224.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.56971875000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.74659375000002,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.50034375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.04721875,"end":251.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.89471875,"end":267.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.36034375,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.44034375,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.06721875,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.04159375,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.33659375,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.98284375000003,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.18409375000005,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.03596875,"end":324.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.54596875000004,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.65096875,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.51096875,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.52784375000005,"end":330.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.56159375000004,"end":330.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.36096875000004,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.61409375,"end":370.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.65909375,"end":355.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.01096875,"end":375.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.26346875,"end":375.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.36471875,"end":377.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.98034375000003,"end":383.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.56221875,"end":380.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.63784375,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.78284375000004,"end":405.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.70596875,"end":417.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.99221875,"end":410.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.00909375000003,"end":410.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.31284375,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.00034375,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.23659375000005,"end":412.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.38846875,"end":412.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.64159375,"end":412.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.77596875,"end":418.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":420.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.01596875,"end":436.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.95846875,"end":443.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.13034375,"end":444.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.14721875000004,"end":445.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.27784375000005,"end":445.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.51409375000003,"end":445.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.13846875,"end":446.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.22284375000004,"end":448.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.66159375,"end":446.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.12534375,"end":459.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.71034375000005,"end":458.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.72721875,"end":459.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.12784375,"end":461.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.11909375000005,"end":466.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.67534375,"end":470.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.88159375000004,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.00784375,"end":476.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.77971875000003,"end":474.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.17596875000004,"end":477.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.42034375000003,"end":487.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.73971875,"end":487.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.75221875000005,"end":492.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.62909375000004,"end":508.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.44159375000004,"end":504.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.47534375000004,"end":505.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.76159375000003,"end":508.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.93034375,"end":533.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.55971875,"end":539.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.5247187500001,"end":543.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.93784375,"end":542.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.48596875,"end":547.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.372,"end":9.959,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這個衛福部長有請好 我們請部長"},{"start":19.045,"end":39.068,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討"},{"start":40.589,"end":59.304,"text":"從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。"},{"start":62.789,"end":88.827,"text":"這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除"},{"start":90.628,"end":115.283,"text":"但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎"},{"start":117.222,"end":122.284,"text":"據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的"},{"start":145.244,"end":169.679,"text":"因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養"},{"start":170.56,"end":189.251,"text":"他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係"},{"start":191.991,"end":219.503,"text":"我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是"},{"start":220.424,"end":235.444,"text":"身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎"},{"start":236.985,"end":265.464,"text":"不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果"},{"start":266.765,"end":269.889,"text":"政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇"},{"start":285.587,"end":307.395,"text":"所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性"},{"start":308.955,"end":333.306,"text":"報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完"},{"start":334.406,"end":353.824,"text":"但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個"},{"start":354.445,"end":354.846,"text":"這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?"},{"start":371.747,"end":398.976,"text":"目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分"},{"start":400.387,"end":415.737,"text":"所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他"},{"start":417.178,"end":442.409,"text":"現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?"},{"start":444.703,"end":465.864,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的"},{"start":467.004,"end":484.228,"text":"以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候"},{"start":484.548,"end":508.019,"text":"是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆"},{"start":508.834,"end":510.915,"text":"今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的"},{"start":539.092,"end":542.996,"text":"好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac2b1c14555c84d0125cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a66b63852e99275fcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"16:31:39 - 16:44:33","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:44:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:31:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2345,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（16時31分）謝謝主席，如同剛剛孟楷委員所說的程序發言，我也想再說一下。我今天真的沒想到會排這麼後面，我覺得5分鐘不是很快嗎？原來我們召委真的是讓大家暢所欲言，不分藍綠白，我想這跟早上所看到的現象差距很大，早上會擔心她完全不公正，但是不分藍綠白讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題，我想召委更能顯示出她公平的用意，最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講，絕無前例，我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長上臺，讓他能夠報告，這真的讓我們覺得非常匪夷所思。","有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好，這是我第三次跟你的對談，總質詢1次、上次在衛環委員會1次，在這個事件當中，今天很多人都在檢討，不管是我們事前大家探討的，我們希望有個托育專法，甚至相關的刑罰能夠加重，到今天去檢討收出養的機制，還有剛剛很多同仁一起為社工發聲、為托育人員發聲。大家今天探討了一整天，你剛剛也特別提到一個禮拜會提出新的報告，讓我們能夠看到，我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後的報告，也希望你能夠用心把這個部分補足，讓我們能夠全面性做個檢討。關於剴剴事件，當然我們極力的譴責，我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等，相關人等有任何違法應該予以重刑。但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏，也造成這一件遺憾，我要講的是，中央、地方都有責任，我不是一味的要把它推卸給任何一個單位，但是我們關注的是希望藉由這件事情發生，我們怎麼去把它給彌補出來。第一，我想政府的保母訓練怎麼會發給劉姓保母證照？網路上也有在探討，我們之前當過里長，我當里長的時候也辦過托育人員考證照的課程，還有最後的考試，我們都經歷過，這個我都知道，但是劉姓保母並非第一次虐童，這件事情網路上也有在說，是真的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好像沒有接到這樣的通報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：網路新聞有這樣的謠傳。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該沒有這樣子的通報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有正式的通報？好，那我們會後再來了解，我也把相關的資料提給衛福部，我們再來了解一下，因為就我所知道，的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳，那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白，避免讓民眾誤會。其實如果他不是第一次，那又讓他這樣子的話，我想對衛福部來說是很受打擊的一個傳言。","再來就是在有證不等於保證的情況之下，在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母，我想就是我們今天這件事關鍵的一個重點，重點是在這些個案，我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有的保母都一桿子打翻所有的人，我想托育人員以及社工的士氣真的非常的低迷，我想這個部分也是我們今天要探討的，在剴剴這樣一個特殊的孩子的背景之下，他沒有爸爸媽媽疼愛，祖父母也養不起，所以只能選擇出養，但有這麼多的保母，為什麼會選擇劉姓保母，他的標準在哪裡？這個部分你要補充嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：在這個案子裡面，這個保母的選擇是由兒盟去做選擇。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，對不起、對不起，因為聲音有點小聲。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇，在這個案子裡面，我們也是覺得這樣的選擇會有一個任意性，那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童最佳利益的目的，所以未來我們會做檢討，我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然對於蓄意、惡意的這種兒虐行為，事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試、考核都不容易找得出來，所以真的要預防的話，就是我們必須建立一個機制，讓多方的訪查來互相做check跟監督，這樣會比較有效。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。那我就補充一下，臺北市政府社會局3月12日的新聞稿裡面就有提到：建議中央應制定三方權責、縣市共訪的一個機制。所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不太清楚它的共訪是如何，如果同時三方一起去的話，大概效果就不好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：應該是說建置這個機制，三方的一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是三方怎麼樣來串聯，然後資訊能夠互相的share，這個才是比較有效的。如此對於不良的保姆，他也比較會怕，因為他如果做了不好的事情的話，就算一個沒有被看到，兩個、三個可能就會被發現。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿，你也認同朝這個方向去建置這樣子的一個串聯、權責的一個共同機制……"],["薛部長瑞元：但我是不贊成同時去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺，勞師動眾，但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來，分工去做一個部署，這個部分朝這個方向可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們現在就是打算這樣做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。","再來，不好意思，因為我不確定你能不能很適時的去蒐集許多的網路言論以及網路的一些相關資訊，但我這邊會後我想提供包括臺中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書，到現在基北北桃，我們看到有一些相關托育人員的互助發展協會也推出他們自己的一些相關建議，這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來交給衛福部做一個參考的依據，因為念出來「落落長」，內容很多，但我想很多人都有很多的想法，但我們做民意代表，把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部，我想這是應該的。其中有一個就是我們要講的，你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們其中有一個訴求，請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練，他們有一個訴求……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒有要你馬上……您說可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是沒有什麼問題，但是這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種臨托，因為小孩子總是要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是就是您安排在職訓練，我們強制要求他要在職訓練，因為也是事實的回訪。可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面，的確啊！他就是托育人員，若他跟我說：「對不起、羅廷瑋立委，今天我不帶你的孩子了，麻煩你把你的孩子帶回去，因為我要在職訓練」，這樣對我來說也是造成困擾，可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡，那我覺得我們應該好好想想我們怎麼協助他，讓他在職訓練的過程當中工作持續穩定，也不會影響到所有的家長，對不對？總不能叫我帶回去吧？那您就要看著我抱著孩子來這邊質詢了嘛，對不對？我想這是我們不樂見的，但這就是他們的訴求之一。我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久，沒有去改善，這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦，但就是已長期累積。那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您，您能夠幫忙協助一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：請委員再……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想還有很多，雖然我們一直在推平價托育，但是什麼事情都是最便宜的話，這真的是家長要的嗎？給孩子最便宜的，難道就是我們一昧追求的嗎？我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善，他們也要生活，由於物價的通膨，我希望幫他們一直不斷的轉介這些聲音給你知道，所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音，我希望你能夠通盤檢討。當然我們尋求圓滿，希望家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外，我也要藉這一次的機會特別跟您分享，剛剛有很多人為社工講話，他們士氣低迷，真的，很多人為了薪水、為了人員不足，那我們也都知道問題所在，剛剛你也說要面對問題，所以要提出報告了嘛，對不對？本席真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況，還有社工人員的薪資權益，我們都要好好的重視，幫助他們。","最後想請問一下，每年4月2號為我國的社工日，因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工師法來做過一個紀念日，我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題了，社工的工作是什麼，這些我都不再問了，但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議，部長會對此有回應嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：來的時候，我們會有人去接待、接見他們。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，本席建議啦，您辛苦了，是不是有機會由您去親自地面對他們，也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工。"],["薛部長瑞元：我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果有時間的話，您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，如果有時間的話是可以，不過我沒有把握一定可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道。因為平時業務也真的很多啦，有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議，但我真的是要特別麻煩你，如果有空的話，希望你親自去；如果沒空，我希望你能夠真正展現出你的誠意，讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們，去了解他們的心聲。"],["薛部長瑞元：OK。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這些社工在這個時候真的士氣低迷，更需要我們強力的去幫助他們。","最後，對不起，我想再跟您討論一件事，衛福部專案裡面也有提到，我們現在要把邀集各地方政府研商訪視的頻率，部長，把兒虐的防治壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加諸在社工身上，我覺得有一點點是甩鍋給基層社工，並不是百分百的解答，這件事情當中，每一個環節都有問題，但是如果最後只是把這個頻率加諸在社工身上，事情就能夠防範的話，我是不太認同。您覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實就這一點來講，應該是更細緻一點，就是你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣性質，所以需要增加訪視的頻率，而增加訪視的頻率指的是他當責的這一個社工要增加他的頻率，還是有本來就有多方面負責的，那大家都一起來，就是剛剛提到三方這樣子的機制來做？這個要討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，最後我想講就是訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了，會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果是精準如你說的更能夠把這個配套做好，如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加，我相信這更會是我們目前應該朝向的一個方向，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","接下來我們請許宇甄。許宇甄、許宇甄委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲委員不在。","吳沛憶、吳沛憶、吳沛憶委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","李坤城、李坤城、李坤城委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","我們請牛煦庭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.29096875,"end":66.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.34971875000001,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.86846875,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.18784375,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.90096875,"end":163.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.93784375,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.36534375000002,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.38596875000002,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.52909375000002,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.75659375,"end":192.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.13159375,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.69409375,"end":263.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.17534375,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.70659375,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.57971875000004,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.84471875,"end":276.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.19034375,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":276.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.67971875,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.56909375000004,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.20096875,"end":289.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.74096875000004,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.76534375,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.21659375,"end":302.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.03846875,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.81471875,"end":319.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.62471875,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.34784375000004,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.56659375000004,"end":326.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.03471875,"end":329.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.15659375,"end":335.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.81409375000004,"end":348.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.45221875000004,"end":358.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.11034375,"end":357.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.62909375000004,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.37159375000005,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.70471875000004,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.72096875,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.07034375,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.10784375000003,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.71909375,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.09034375000005,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.11096875000004,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.97534375000004,"end":391.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.05846875000003,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.61909375000005,"end":407.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.09971875,"end":397.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.70284375,"end":400.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.46971875,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.73096875000005,"end":411.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.00909375000003,"end":455.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.34159375,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.71971875,"end":452.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.85471875,"end":452.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.62221875,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.52034375000005,"end":459.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.06034375,"end":463.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.41846875000005,"end":470.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.48471875,"end":472.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.51846875,"end":473.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.59409375,"end":476.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.67846875000004,"end":473.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.74596875000003,"end":473.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.09159375,"end":480.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.47909375,"end":481.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.96409375,"end":486.41909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.66409375,"end":485.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.99721875000006,"end":509.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.44409375000004,"end":488.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.57034375,"end":491.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.82659375000003,"end":498.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.54284375000003,"end":504.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.43284375,"end":506.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.13284375,"end":537.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.45346875,"end":509.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.2847187500001,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.1240937499999,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.03096875,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.5790937500001,"end":551.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.9109687499999,"end":607.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.8134687500001,"end":621.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.95909375,"end":622.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.3259687500001,"end":629.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.59971875,"end":627.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.9497187500001,"end":630.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.41784375,"end":629.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.0209687500001,"end":638.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.4253437500001,"end":642.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.0447187500001,"end":641.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.4115937500001,"end":642.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.79971875,"end":646.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.13659375,"end":653.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.1653437500001,"end":714.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.9428437500001,"end":672.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.1809687500001,"end":721.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.7453437500001,"end":720.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.79159375,"end":723.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.36096875,"end":727.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.7822187500001,"end":730.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.53284375,"end":744.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.9753437500001,"end":734.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.31971875,"end":749.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.4665937500001,"end":765.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.11096875,"end":757.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.13909375,"end":771.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.8090937500001,"end":772.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.41659375,"end":773.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.27721875,"end":773.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.72846875,"end":774.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.094,"end":0.375,"text":"本集完"},{"start":16.109,"end":30.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來"},{"start":31.486,"end":50.22,"text":"我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意"},{"start":50.76,"end":66.624,"text":"那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長"},{"start":74.059,"end":93.951,"text":"委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重"},{"start":94.591,"end":121.649,"text":"到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長"},{"start":123.249,"end":142.954,"text":"凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是"},{"start":143.755,"end":143.775,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":157.641,"end":181.244,"text":"第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎"},{"start":182.963,"end":187.037,"text":"這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳"},{"start":190.848,"end":217.703,"text":"應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是"},{"start":218.243,"end":237.512,"text":"在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都"},{"start":239.112,"end":240.013,"text":"這部分你有要補充嗎?"},{"start":267.336,"end":272.802,"text":"這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的"},{"start":274.242,"end":302.201,"text":"部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善"},{"start":306.203,"end":329.139,"text":"請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查"},{"start":330.46,"end":355.098,"text":"來互相來做這個check跟監督 這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣 如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好"},{"start":356.959,"end":382.32,"text":"應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。"},{"start":383.281,"end":407.422,"text":"對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?"},{"start":407.962,"end":427.153,"text":"對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃"},{"start":428.194,"end":455.043,"text":"我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔"},{"start":455.703,"end":469.539,"text":"你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練"},{"start":471.653,"end":497.102,"text":"他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員"},{"start":500.704,"end":523.659,"text":"對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的"},{"start":526.221,"end":551.257,"text":"但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的"},{"start":552.277,"end":567.63,"text":"這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道"},{"start":567.93,"end":582.051,"text":"所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話"},{"start":583.112,"end":607.637,"text":"他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日"},{"start":608.888,"end":621.165,"text":"那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?"},{"start":623.65,"end":646.277,"text":"來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎"},{"start":647.676,"end":663.429,"text":"呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空"},{"start":663.829,"end":683.488,"text":"我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到"},{"start":684.048,"end":702.525,"text":"我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答"},{"start":703.366,"end":703.906,"text":"其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點"},{"start":721.832,"end":746.366,"text":"你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論"},{"start":750.008,"end":773.043,"text":"最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150048","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a9e6122292d08312f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a605936a7ac3d5c2cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"16:18:12 - 16:31:26","影片長度":"00:13:14","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":794,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:31:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:18:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2258,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（16時18分）主席謝謝，我想在開始詢問之前先做程序發言。早上9點鐘的時候，民進黨的委員在這邊講說主席有可能不公正，所以還要提案。但是到目前整個質詢下來，現在已經是4點20分了，我看到主席面對不管是國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員、民眾黨的委員輪流質詢，主持議事都是非常的明快、果斷並且有效率，而且民進黨的委員沒有一位表達主席主持不公正。也因此，我這邊再一次鄭重講，今天上午這樣將近一個小時的時間，有媒體下標說是藍綠互吵，很抱歉，國民黨團從來沒有要吵，國民黨團今天的目標、目的就只有一個，就是要求衛福部來衛環委員會好好接受質詢並跟國人說明清楚，是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂權宜問題，並且污衊主席不公正，所以本席在這邊質詢之前，一定要再做個程序發言。","謝謝主席，請衛福部薛瑞元部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，發生這件事件，大家都覺得非常難過，但是每一個不幸的事件背後，我們應該要記取教訓，並且好好的去預防下一次有可能再發生，你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：衛福部什麼時候知道剴剴不幸離世的事件？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實是在死亡的隔日。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月25日？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是有通報過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月25日衛福部知道，當時第一個通報的是保護司？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來臺北市政府也有再通報社家署？"],["薛部長瑞元：那不是通報，它就開始詢問這個要不要開重大兒虐事件的會議。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是不管保護司或社家署其實在12月25日、12月27日也都知道了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教部長，全臺灣有多少這種收出養媒合的這些未滿3歲的出養童？到目前為止，衛福部這邊媒合了多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前掌握的是177個。"],["洪委員孟楷：177位未滿3歲？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，目前177位3歲以下的。"],["洪委員孟楷：媒合的？"],["薛部長瑞元：等待媒合。"],["洪委員孟楷：我問的是已經媒合了，現在已經有保母收養的出養童，未滿3歲現在有幾位？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要看什麼時候開始算。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們到現在還不知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是說已經收養成功了，這要看什麼時候開始算。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個出養的還會不會有被虐待的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：出養之後的被虐待就是屬於家內的，仍然是要通報。"],["洪委員孟楷：你再回過來釐清一下，本席現在想要釐清的是12月25日、12月27日你們衛福部就已經知道了，當時沒有任何的警覺或思考全臺灣目前有多少一樣的狀況，會不會也正遭受到不當的對待？那個有沒有去了解？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是有177個是安置等待收養。"],["洪委員孟楷：177位安置等待收養？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：從過去到現在這3個月的時間，有沒有針對這177位去了解他們現在的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：有請地方去了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候請地方去了解？"],["薛部長瑞元：上個禮拜。"],["洪委員孟楷：你12月25日、27日就知道有剴剴事件發生了，但你直到上個禮拜媒體報導出來之後，你們才要地方政府趕快去看現在這177位有沒有一樣的狀況，或者有沒有被收養不妥對待。我想請教，過去這二、三個月在做什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我跟委員報告，程序上應該這樣，當它通報之後，地方就要去開檢討的會議，地方在10天之內召開檢討會議，在2週之內把報告給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在的狀況是12月25日、27日衛福部也知道了，全臺灣有多少出養童，你說有177位，是不是散布在全臺灣？是嘛！他就不是單一縣市的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在不管地方這邊什麼時候出具報告，照理講，衛福部身為中央主管機關應該要做一件事，我們趕快來確認，即便是有社工每個月去確認，但是如同剴剴事件來講，他也是每個月有訪視啊！可是到最後發生這樣的憾事，大家也在講是不是訪視的過程沒有落實、沒有直接去看，你怎麼不會想還有沒有其他出養童也有一樣的狀況？或者我們至少多一份關心、多一份了解。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！在這個過程當中，應該及早去做關心，這個我同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼本席會講這樣的話？本席在交通委員會，之前太魯閣事件的時候，當時也沒有人想到可能是工地邊坡施工而造成太魯閣號的狀況，所以隔一天之後，交通部馬上下令全臺所有邊坡工程先停工，一個禮拜、兩個禮拜內去做徹底的釐清，安全無虞之後才開放施工。一樣的道理，當你們12月25日、12月27日就已經知道每個月都已經有社工員去訪視了，怎麼還會發生剴剴這樣的不幸事件時，還有177個出養童，為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心去察看？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是有一定的機制，剴剴這個案件沒有一定的機制嗎？那為什麼還發生這樣的情況？我講比較不好意思的，這樣對得起離開的人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分我們事後有重新再查了一遍，但是我跟委員報告，這種事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會檢討？在這件事件上面有沒有檢討？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有相關的內部懲處、究責嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該不是內部懲處的問題，因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子，剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了，在法規的解釋上面，過去就是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席再請教，部長剛剛回復說因為時間太趕，所以報告寫得不好，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也看到，這個報告我確實也看不下去，甚至我覺得你這樣條列式一點一點的，用ChatGPT可能3秒鐘就生成出來。當然，我不是要否定基層公務同仁的努力，可是這樣的報告擬出來就是讓大家覺得衛福部不想面對。那麼我請教，剛剛你說因為時間的關係而沒有辦法出具比較完整的報告，我們現在給你時間，一個禮拜可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：看委員會的決議是怎樣，因為報告已經退回給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：早上已經退回給你們嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜內能不能交出一份完整、詳細，而且後續要怎麼樣改變的報告，本席還講到一個九點結論，有三點是中央機關要做的事情，中央機關要做的事情包括有沒有預算、有沒有期程、有沒有執行計畫單位，這些能不能在你的報告裡面寫出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：一個禮拜？"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們試試看。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告，剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府的一個檢討報告，本席有看過那份檢討報告，本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向、整體的考量，讓國人知道衛福部是玩真的，中央、地方其實應該是一條心，沒有人願意發生這樣的憾事，但發生之後不是互相推卸責任，而是我們要去思考怎麼能夠讓我們的社會安全網更好，不要漏接每一個孩子，不要讓有可能的破洞持續蔓延下去。","最後，社工員也是真的非常辛苦，所以本席想要請教一下，之前我們有提到在112年底增加進用包括地方政府的專業人員、包括社工缺工的問題，112年底增加進用達6,198人。請教部長，到目前有達到衛福部預計的6,198人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是4,190人。"],["洪委員孟楷：還差了快2,000人。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那是社工的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：還差了快2,000人，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，6,198人是全部的專業人員，社工的部分我們希望達到4,190人，目前所有的從業人員是5,452人，所以大概是達到87%。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是還是沒有達到衛福部的預期。"],["薛部長瑞元：社工的部分是3,733人，大概是89%。"],["洪委員孟楷：都還是沒有達到預期。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有一點點差距。"],["洪委員孟楷：經過這個事件，本席當然不希望，但是大家會講有可能是社工荒，因為保護性社工也面臨高風險、高案量、高壓力的三高，以及缺乏督導、合作、資源的三缺，這個部分衛福部到底有沒有正視這個問題來做解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們當然會針對問題去解決，一方面就是執行……"],["洪委員孟楷：剴剴這個事件讓全國看到，會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要觀察。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席當然不希望，因為社工除了有他的工作使命之外，社工他們也很專業，但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是做功德。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以合理的報酬、合理的待遇一定要提供，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，這部分我們也持續做檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以報告的部分，是不是針對社工面臨的高風險、高案量與高壓力，以及缺乏督導、合作、資源的三缺，能不能也針對三高三缺的部分做一點回應，在報告裡面把它寫清楚，未來更精進要怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以，一方面當然是委員提到的薪資問題、薪資的改善。第二個是他需要支援、他需要有人來支持，包括社工內部的支持與社工之外人員的支持，例如出勤的時候，針對不同的個案，可能需要警察人員陪同這樣的支持。內部的支持就是說社工不應該讓他單打獨鬥，所以當他出去碰到了問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，看來你都知道問題，但是現在只知道問題沒有用，重點是要提出解決的方案。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我答應委員在報告裡面會把這些加進來。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長，我們期待你一個禮拜後的報告，不要再讓國人失望，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","接下來請黃珊珊。黃珊珊，黃珊珊委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","我們請羅廷瑋委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.61159375,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":50.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.60534375,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.81159375,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.54471875,"end":73.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.90971875000001,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.64909375,"end":95.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.73659375000001,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.66034375000001,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.26721875000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.07909375000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.51721875,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.01471875000001,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.05659375000002,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.89596875,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.82409375,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.38096875000002,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":141.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.01721875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.56096875,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.46721875,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.22659375,"end":159.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.59659375,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.18284375000002,"end":173.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.09284375000001,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.48909375000002,"end":174.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.45096875000002,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.83471875,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.91909375,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.42534375000002,"end":176.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.44221875000002,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.69534375,"end":176.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.74596875,"end":176.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.50534375,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.79221875000002,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.90159375000002,"end":186.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.27596875,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.54534375,"end":197.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.59596875000003,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.03034375000001,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.00471875000002,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.34596875000003,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.03159375,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.04409375,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.02284375000002,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.20721875,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.15471875000003,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.42034375000003,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.63846875000002,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.31284375,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.69596875000002,"end":254.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.96159375000002,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.26534375000003,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.76721875000004,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.23534375,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.37034375,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.28534375000004,"end":264.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.18784375,"end":265.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.25534375,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.01659375,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.16846875000005,"end":281.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.96971875,"end":292.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.91346875,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.60909375,"end":299.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.21659375,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.56659375000004,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.08971875000003,"end":310.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.35784375000003,"end":312.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.41659375,"end":316.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.58534375,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.21346875,"end":336.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.55221875,"end":338.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.06659375000004,"end":342.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.49221875,"end":343.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.04034375000003,"end":352.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.24159375000005,"end":353.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.25846875,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.11409375,"end":359.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.31221875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.85221875,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.41221875,"end":382.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.43096875000003,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.61971875,"end":403.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.32409375000003,"end":394.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.27159375,"end":406.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.87034375,"end":407.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.78159375,"end":407.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.65909375,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.01284375,"end":416.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.56534375,"end":415.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.80971875,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.72471875,"end":423.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.04471875,"end":426.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.12034375,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.03471875,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.27909375,"end":437.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.29596875000004,"end":437.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.49846875000003,"end":437.51534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.51534375000006,"end":437.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.56596875,"end":437.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.68409375000005,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.13534375,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.53159375,"end":441.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.71721875000003,"end":441.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.10534375000003,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.60284375000003,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.02284375000005,"end":464.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.81909375000004,"end":473.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.50534375,"end":476.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.83409375,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.91846875000005,"end":476.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.96909375,"end":476.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.98596875000004,"end":478.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.03659375,"end":478.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.35284375000003,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.52159375,"end":479.24721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.97721875,"end":485.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.96346875,"end":497.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.89409375,"end":503.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.13409375000003,"end":502.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.27721875000003,"end":523.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.49221875,"end":505.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.69596875,"end":525.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.95284375,"end":527.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.31971875,"end":528.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.5009687500001,"end":531.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.0365937500001,"end":531.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.96471875,"end":532.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.0490937500001,"end":532.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.11659375,"end":534.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.8672187500001,"end":540.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.97596875,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.93346875,"end":543.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.3003437500001,"end":546.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.8147187500001,"end":571.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.44784375,"end":574.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.55721875,"end":578.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.91909375,"end":581.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.4209687499999,"end":583.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.2478437500001,"end":584.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.5090937500001,"end":588.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.2553437500001,"end":613.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.82534375,"end":613.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.99409375,"end":617.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.1328437500001,"end":618.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.33534375,"end":618.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.19159375,"end":619.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.90034375,"end":621.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.22909375,"end":624.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.09346875,"end":626.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.1103437500001,"end":638.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.46471875,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.1928437500001,"end":638.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.26034375,"end":650.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.7234687499999,"end":647.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.81534375,"end":652.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.0303437499999,"end":654.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.1228437500001,"end":660.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.90659375,"end":668.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.9053437500002,"end":671.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.3984687500001,"end":674.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.4909687500001,"end":674.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.6259687500001,"end":679.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.9753437500001,"end":687.0459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.02596875,"end":681.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.22721875,"end":692.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.60221875,"end":706.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.4015937500001,"end":706.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.8403437500001,"end":707.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.1609687499999,"end":707.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.3972187500001,"end":710.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.5022187500001,"end":710.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.58659375,"end":726.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.3984687500001,"end":727.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.92159375,"end":728.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.99721875,"end":729.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.6384687500001,"end":736.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.55721875,"end":738.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.71721875,"end":744.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.8259687500001,"end":748.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.6397187500002,"end":758.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.52846875,"end":760.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.62096875,"end":763.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.4053437500002,"end":764.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.8859687500001,"end":768.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.2822187500001,"end":775.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.77159375,"end":768.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.8390937500001,"end":771.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.6272187500001,"end":774.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.65659375,"end":781.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.90034375,"end":781.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.9340937500001,"end":781.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.9509687500001,"end":782.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.71034375,"end":782.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.72721875,"end":788.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.63346875,"end":789.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.3715937500001,"end":793.4934687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.649,"end":14.558,"text":"主席謝謝我想在開始詢問之前我先做程序發言"},{"start":15.683,"end":40.385,"text":"早上9點鐘的時候民進黨的委員在這邊講說主席有可能不公正所以還要提案但是到目前整個這樣質詢下來現在已經是4點20分了我看到主席不管是國民黨委員、民進黨委員、民眾黨委員輪流質詢都是主持意識非常的明快果斷並且有效率"},{"start":40.925,"end":59.382,"text":"而且民進黨委員沒有一位表達說主席主持的不公正也因此我這邊再一次的鄭重講今天上午這樣的一個將近一個小時的時間有媒體下標說是藍綠互炒很抱歉"},{"start":60.715,"end":73.174,"text":"國民黨團從來沒有要吵國民黨團今天的目標目的就只有一個就是要求衛福部來為黃文化好好的跟國人接受質詢並且說明清楚"},{"start":74.013,"end":94.332,"text":"是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂的權宜問題並且誣衊主席不公正所以這邊本席在這邊在發言之前資訊之前一定要再做一個這個程序發言好 謝謝主席那我是不是可以請這個衛福部薛睿恩部長好來 部長請"},{"start":102.538,"end":123.323,"text":"委員好部長發生這件事件大家都覺得非常難過但是每一個不幸的事件背後我們應該要記取教訓並且好好的去預防下一次有可能是在發生你同意嗎對我們什麼時候知道衛福部這邊知道說這個凱凱的一個不幸離世的事件"},{"start":124.508,"end":139.427,"text":"其實是在隔日,他死亡的隔日12月25號,衛福部知道,當時第一個通報的是保護司再來台北市政府也有在通報社家署"},{"start":140.689,"end":143.451,"text":"那我想請教全台灣有多少的這種收初養媒合的這一些未滿3歲的初養童?"},{"start":161.018,"end":189.246,"text":"到目前為止,我們媒合了,衛福部這邊媒合了多少?我們之前掌握的是177個177位?未滿3歲以下的目前啦那媒合的?等待媒合那我說說已經媒合了,現在有保母收養的出養童未滿3歲,現在有幾位?這要看什麼時候開始算"},{"start":190.265,"end":198.097,"text":"對。"},{"start":198.362,"end":221.217,"text":"那會不會有我們這個出仰的會不會有還有被虐待的問題出仰之後的被虐待那就是屬於這個家內的也就是說這個要通報也仍然是要通報啦你再回過來釐清一下就是說本席現在想要釐清的是你12月25號、12月27號你們就已經知道"},{"start":222.27,"end":222.97,"text":"177位安置等待收養"},{"start":248.385,"end":262.574,"text":"那從過去到現在這3個月的時間有沒有去針對這117位去瞭解他們現在的狀況這是有請地方去瞭解的什麼時候請地方去瞭解的上個禮拜"},{"start":265.339,"end":290.471,"text":"所以你12月25號、27號就知道有凱凱這個事件發生了但你直到上個禮拜因為媒體報導出來之後你們才要地方政府趕快去看說現在有收養的177位有沒有一樣的狀況或是說有沒有被收養不妥對待那我想請教過去這兩三個月在做什麼對 所以我跟委員報告這程序上應該這樣當他通報之後他就要去開檢討的會議是地方"},{"start":292.992,"end":312.437,"text":"地方在10天之內召開檢討會議之後的話要在兩週之內把報告給我們現在的狀況是你12月25號、27號衛福部也知道了那全台灣有多少的這個初養童你說有177位是不是散播在全台灣"},{"start":313.724,"end":335.646,"text":"是嘛 他就不是只是單一縣市的問題嘛對 那現在就不管是說地方這邊什麼時候出去報告你照理講你衛福部身為中央主管機關你應該做一件事就是那我們趕快來確認即便是有社工每個月有去做確認但是如同凱凱這件事件來講他也是每個月有訪視啊"},{"start":336.727,"end":337.007,"text":"為什麼本席會講這樣的話?"},{"start":364.332,"end":389.545,"text":"本期在交通委員會之前太魯閣事件的時候當時也沒有人想到是說有可能工地邊坡要施工而造成到時候太魯閣耗的一個狀況所以隔一天之後交通部馬上下令全台所有邊坡部門先停工去做一個禮拜內兩個禮拜去做一個徹底的釐清安全無虞之後然後才去開放施工"},{"start":390.629,"end":417.35,"text":"那一樣的道理嗎?當你們已經知道說12月25號、12月27號怎麼每個月都已經有社工委員去訪視了還會發生凱凱這樣子一個不幸的事件的時候還有147個初養童為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心要去做查看?因為這一些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查就是有一定的機制?凱凱這一家案件沒有一定的機制嗎?那為什麼還發生這樣的情況?"},{"start":421.182,"end":439.278,"text":"我講比較不好意思這樣對得起離開的人嗎所以這一個部分的話我們事後有就重新再查了一遍但是我跟委員報告這種事情會不會檢討在這件事件上面有沒有檢討當然有那會有相關的內部懲處究責嗎"},{"start":445.403,"end":464.225,"text":"這個應該不是內部懲處的問題因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子那剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了就是說在法規的解釋上面過去就是這個樣子來那本席再請教部長你剛剛回覆喔說因為是時間太趕所以你報告寫得不好"},{"start":466.188,"end":482.627,"text":"本席也看到這報告我真的確實我沒有辦法看下去甚至我講是說你這種條列是一點一點的用GPT可能3秒鐘都生成出來當然我不是要否定我們基層公務同仁的努力"},{"start":483.268,"end":505.228,"text":"可是這樣的報告你出來就是讓大家覺得說你衛福部不想面對好 那我請教剛剛你講說因為時間的關係你沒有辦法出去比較完整的報告那我們現在給你時間一個禮拜可不可以呃 看看委員會這邊的決議是怎樣一個禮拜可不可以退回給你們嘛早上已經退回給你們嘛"},{"start":506.008,"end":506.349,"text":"一個禮拜﹖可不可以"},{"start":531.141,"end":539.867,"text":"一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府"},{"start":541.038,"end":557.922,"text":"的一個檢討報告本席也希望本席有看過那份檢討報告本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向整體的一個考量讓國人知道說衛福部真的是完真的中央地方其實應該是一條心"},{"start":559.923,"end":559.943,"text":"好"},{"start":582.475,"end":601.673,"text":"最後 抱歉主席一分鐘時間喔社工員也是真的是非常的辛苦所以本席想要請教一下之前我們有提到在112年底增加禁用包括地方政府的專業人員包括這一些社工缺工的問題說"},{"start":603.894,"end":614.32,"text":"112年年底增加禁用達6198人那請教我們預計到目前有達到我們衛福部預計的6198人目前的話是4190還差了快2000人社工的部分"},{"start":622.265,"end":630.77,"text":"6199是全部的專業人員那社工是我們希望達到4190那目前的話實際上的這一個所有的從業的人員是5452所以大概已經達到87%社工的部分是3733人所以大概是89%"},{"start":650.811,"end":652.092,"text":"那這樣的一個部分衛福部到底有沒有"},{"start":672.381,"end":673.042,"text":"會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難?"},{"start":688.998,"end":706.131,"text":"這要觀察啦本席當然不希望因為社工除了他有他的一個工作使命以外社工當然他們也很專業但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是當做功德所以合理的報酬跟合理的待遇一定要提供"},{"start":713.698,"end":728.331,"text":"社工面臨的高風險、高案量跟高壓力以及缺乏督導合作資源的三缺、三高三缺的部分能不能也針對這部分來做一點回應在報告裡面把它給寫清楚未來經濟要怎麼做"},{"start":730.211,"end":744.003,"text":"這部分的話當然就是說一方面當然委員提到了薪資的問題是薪資的改善第二個是他需要資源他是需要有人來支持他這個支持包括社工內部的支持跟"},{"start":745.765,"end":762.185,"text":"社工之外的人員的支持,比如說出去出勤的時候,有的針對不同的個案,可能需要警察人員陪同,這樣子的一個支持。內部的支持就是說,"},{"start":765.996,"end":766.877,"text":"我們謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac126a1a1f33c9ca025cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6b801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:08:46 - 16:18:07","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":561,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:18:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:08:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2192,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時8分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。其實發生這樣的悲劇，我相信大家看了都很難過，但更重要的事情是我們真的要很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況？我們社會安全網強化的第一期計畫、第二期計畫，部長你會不會覺得很奇怪，為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反增？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分應該是通報吧？是通報的，當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓本來在黑數的地方的這些案件量跑出來。"],["黃委員國昌：這是通報數嘛，實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來比，但是這一次發生了這樣的悲劇，我必須要跟部長說這讓我想到2019年的時候，一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室、在這個會議室其實有做過，那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情，看到多數兒虐案件的施虐者是父母或實際照顧的人。但這一次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候，我在之前公開的記者會其實有想要公開請教一下部長，就是我看不懂的是衛福部認為這個保母不是實際的照顧者，因為如果是這樣解釋的話，我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤啊！這樣子的解釋，部長您認同嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不認同。"],["黃委員國昌：你不認同嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我不認同。"],["黃委員國昌：或許未來，可能部長回去找一下，就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候，誠實的面對問題，因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋，不僅沒有辦法解決問題，只會造成更大的問題，部長你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以在我們今天的檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點，因為長久以來在社政單位裡面，因為分工得非常細，所以碰到問題第一個要想這是屬於誰要負責……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先……"],["薛部長瑞元：不是以這個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：我們以法論法，兒少法施行細則有限定實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在講的是第一百零二條……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，但我們現在在講的是第四十九條跟第五十三條嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個不應該……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：錯誤的訊息，錯了，我肯定部長在這邊沒有要抝、沒有要文過飾非，錯了就錯了嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來另外一個讓我覺得非常困惑的事情是，前面說是施行細則限於家庭內，後來這個說法被戳破了以後，改變另外一個說法，說是因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡，配合檢警調查，所以沒有按兒虐的處理程序來加以處理。對於這樣的說法，部長你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不同意嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：我也不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是媒體的記者對次長的說法有扭曲嗎？因為我看到這樣的說法非常非常震驚啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分是不是讓次長來說明？"],["黃委員國昌：好，請。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝委員。我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開兒虐的重大會議，並不是說這不是重大兒虐的案件。"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下！沒有召開兒虐的重大會議可以用檢察官在偵辦所以不用召開當做擋箭牌嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：應該是還沒召開，可是因為我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先釐清一下，所以你也認為應該要召開，只是還沒召開嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：對，應該要召開。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟檢察官的偵查一點關係都沒有嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：是，我們是在配合調查，還沒有釐清是不是一個全新的兒虐案件。"],["黃委員國昌：因為當這件事情發生的時候，全體國人都在看衛福部的態度，我們在開記者會的時候，地方政府有錯，就像黃珊珊委員講的，臺北市你們自己就是當事者，推什麼推啊！但我們在國會要監督的是中央部門，中央部門面對這些問題的態度，我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲，我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過飾非。","部長我帶您看，這個是2022年的時候，臺中市政府那個時候也是遭外界質疑發生兒虐事件而他們沒有處理好，臺中市政府給臺中市議會的調查報告。部長，我建議你啦，我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕，我是很持平的看，您回去看臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告，從內容的檢討到究責，而且也移給檢調，移給檢調了，他們提內容的檢討跟究責，這跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有，也沒有違背。我希望最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候，不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，之前的報告內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係，至於剛剛委員提到這一個刑事調查的過程，其實不妨礙行政調查，因為它的目的是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你說這樣的話我非常認同，終於有一個法律人站在備詢臺上說出實話了，刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：很好！第二個問題，我要follow我上次請教部長的問題，蘇丹紅的事件，我在這邊跟你說輸入的時間要公告，你當天也給我承諾，部長，對嗎？我的記憶沒有錯啊！你當天給我承諾說要公告，但很奇怪啊！我上去衛福部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊！你答應我，食藥署不做，是上令下面可以不服從嗎？因為我相信部長不會騙我啊！你答應我輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道，怎麼現在專區還沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：我再確定一下，因為這邊有寫檢驗結果的日期，這個跟輸入的日期是否一致。"],["黃委員國昌：不一樣，我現在可以直接跟部長講。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是這樣子的話，那就是少一個欄位，我再請他們處理。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼我一直追輸入的日期？我馬上秀答案給部長看，因為那時候部長說2023年12月11日已經開始逐批查驗了，之前我問高雄的公司的時候，我覺得很奇怪，逐批查驗怎麼進得來？你說那是在逐批查驗之前。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但請部長看一下，我為什麼要追進來的時間，你有沒有看到在保欣公司裡面，有2024年1月2日和2月17日，那是在逐批查驗之後，問題就來了，既然都已經逐批查驗了，怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的，還會被驗出來，那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎？部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：這是什麼狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：我再釐清一下看看。"],["黃委員國昌：既然已經逐批查驗，逐批查驗給我們消費者的信心就是我們的政府在海關做好把關了，顯然不是這個樣子啊！逐批查驗了竟然還進來，這個是什麼狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我再釐清一下。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長釐清完了之後，給我一個完整的說明，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這會牽涉到消費者的信心，如果當消費者知道我們政府在海關逐批查驗，但是還有東西流進來，這個逐批查驗可能就大有問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我們再把它釐清一下到底是怎樣。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","接下來請洪孟楷委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.84721875,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.37346875,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.301593750000002,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.34721875,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.32159375,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.57846875,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.96596875,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.31159375,"end":43.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.42846875,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.49909375,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.697218750000005,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.71784375,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.27409375,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.93721875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.37971875000001,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.08346875000001,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.22409375000001,"end":117.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.73409375000001,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.46784375000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.29471875,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.02034375000001,"end":122.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.46659375000002,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.92971875,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.12346875,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.63784375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.13909375,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.72034375,"end":156.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.93471875,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.93409375000002,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.23346875000001,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.72221875000002,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.48909375000002,"end":178.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.91034375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.73721875,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.28096875,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.95096875000002,"end":188.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.23346875000001,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.53284375,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.55784375000002,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.35909375,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.91596875000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.41784375,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.81846875000002,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.83471875,"end":223.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.99596875,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.19409375,"end":235.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.76784375000003,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.70721875,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.13721875000002,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.39846875,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.23284375000003,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.43909375,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.18471875,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.54284375000003,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.98534375,"end":266.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.63909375000003,"end":269.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.18721875,"end":276.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.36784375,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.18534375,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.51784375,"end":289.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.11221875,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.51659375,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.44284375,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.06221875,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.19971875000005,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.40596875,"end":329.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.12284375,"end":332.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.65409375,"end":333.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.30784375,"end":337.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.73346875000004,"end":338.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.50534375,"end":340.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.88909375000003,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.89721875000004,"end":347.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.99346875000003,"end":349.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.54596875000004,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.14909375,"end":359.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.80596875000003,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.97471875,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.79221875,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.93534375,"end":375.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.41534375000003,"end":379.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.81971875000005,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.02159375,"end":390.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.66159375,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.72471875,"end":405.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.97159375,"end":407.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.57471875000005,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.37596875,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.31659375000004,"end":414.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.98721875,"end":415.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.47221875,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.54784375,"end":422.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.01534375,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.73221875,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.55909375000005,"end":429.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.08596875,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.42659375000005,"end":439.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.97471875,"end":446.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.86409375000005,"end":450.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.13784375,"end":450.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.69471875000005,"end":451.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.21784375000004,"end":452.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.46221875000003,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.28909375,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.96409375,"end":457.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.17471875,"end":469.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.13471875000005,"end":472.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.96971875,"end":477.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.96471875000003,"end":478.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.58909375,"end":482.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.01034375,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.36034375,"end":485.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.91284375000004,"end":487.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.30909375000005,"end":491.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.52784375000005,"end":495.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.44284375,"end":497.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.06284375,"end":502.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.36159375000005,"end":506.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.62659375000004,"end":509.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.97659375,"end":510.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.61346875000004,"end":512.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.7609687500001,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.4822187500001,"end":524.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.32534375,"end":519.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.6159687500001,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.1853437500001,"end":524.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.4722187500001,"end":525.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.53534375,"end":525.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.1428437500001,"end":527.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.5559687500001,"end":531.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.82534375,"end":535.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.2553437500001,"end":550.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.39346875,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.15596875,"end":550.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.57784375,"end":556.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.45909375,"end":555.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.52596875,"end":560.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.341,"end":16.343,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好 來部長請委員好"},{"start":23.642,"end":51.449,"text":"部長其實發生這樣的悲劇我相信大家看了都很難過但更重要的事情是我們真的很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況我們社會安全網的強化第一期計畫、第二期計畫部長你會不會覺得很奇怪為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反正"},{"start":53.582,"end":63.509,"text":"這個部分應該是通報吧當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓這個本來是在黑樹的地方的這些案件量會跑出來"},{"start":66.099,"end":89.71,"text":"就齁這個是通報數碼就實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來去比但是呢這一次發生這樣的悲劇我必須要跟部長說就讓我想到2019年的時候其實一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室在這個會議室其實有做過那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情"},{"start":90.45,"end":119.249,"text":"看到說多數兒孽的案件施孽者是父母或實際照顧的人但這次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候我之前公開了記者會其實我有想要公開請教一下部長就是我看不懂的事情是說衛福部認為說這個保母不是實際的照顧者因為如果是這樣解釋的話我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤那這樣子的解釋部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":120.53,"end":144.751,"text":"我不認同你不認同嗎對我不認同那或許未來可能部長回去找一下就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候誠實的面對問題因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋不僅沒有辦法解決問題只會造成更大的問題部長您同意嗎"},{"start":145.431,"end":172.281,"text":"對,所以在我們今天的這個檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點因為這個是長久以來在社政的單位裡面他們因為分工的非常細所以一碰到問題第一個要想說這是屬於誰要負責我們吼先不是以這個個案為重心我們以法論法啦而造法施行細則有把它限定在說實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎?"},{"start":174.308,"end":201.508,"text":"這個是在講的是102條的在講是嘛但我們現在在講的是49條跟53條嘛所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息嘛錯誤的訊息錯了我肯定部長在這邊沒有要凹沒有要聞過是非錯了就錯了嘛好接下來讓我另外一個覺得非常困惑的事情是說"},{"start":202.918,"end":224.501,"text":"前面說是施行細則現於家庭內後來這個說法被戳破了以後改變另外一個說法說因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡配合檢警調查所以沒有按額內的處理程序來加以處理對於這樣子的說法部長你同意嗎?我不同意"},{"start":225.262,"end":226.483,"text":"我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開額內的重大"},{"start":247.324,"end":247.344,"text":"因為齁當"},{"start":275.979,"end":289.329,"text":"這件事情發生的時候全體國人都在看衛福部的態度我們在開記者會的時候地方政府有錯就像黃珊珊委員講的臺北市你們自己就是當事人推什麼推啊"},{"start":290.168,"end":306.462,"text":"但我們在國會要監督的是中央的部門中央的部門在面對這些問題的態度的時候我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過是非"},{"start":307.523,"end":329.274,"text":"部長我帶您看這個是2022年的時候臺中市政府針對那個時候也是外界質疑發生額內事件的時候他們沒有處理好臺中市政府他們給臺中市議會的調查報告部長我建議你我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕"},{"start":330.214,"end":359.241,"text":"我是很持平的看您回去看齁臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告從內容的檢討到究責而且已給剪掉了已給剪掉他們提內容的檢討跟究責跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有也沒有尾一倍我希望啦齁最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上"},{"start":360.462,"end":375.352,"text":"委員這之前的報告是內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係那至於剛剛委員提到這一個刑事調查的過程其實不妨礙行政調查因為他的目的是不一樣的"},{"start":375.492,"end":390.594,"text":"部長你說這樣的話我非常的認同啊終於有一個法律人站在備詢台上說實話了刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛好很好"},{"start":393.837,"end":421.663,"text":"第二個問題是我要follow我上一次請教部長的問題蘇丹紅的事件我在這邊跟您說說你輸入的時間要公告你當天也給我承諾了嘛部長對吧我的記憶沒有錯啊你當天給我承諾啦說要公告啊但很奇怪啊我上去衛福部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊"},{"start":424.039,"end":439.319,"text":"您答應我那食藥署不做是上令下面可以不服從嗎因為我相信部長不會騙我啊你答應我說輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道啊啊怎麼現在專區還沒有"},{"start":441.444,"end":465.803,"text":"這個我再確定一下因為這邊有寫說檢驗結果的日期這個是跟輸入的日期是否一致不一樣我現在可以直接跟部長講不一樣那如果是這樣的話那就少了一個來源因為我為什麼一直在追輸入的日期下一張我馬上就秀答案給部長看因為那時候部長說我們2023年12月11號已經開始逐批查驗了"},{"start":470.186,"end":492.881,"text":"之前我在問高雄的公司的時候我覺得很奇怪竹坯茶園怎麼進得來您說那個是在竹坯茶園之前嘛但部長請您看一下我為什麼要追進口的進來的時間你有沒有看到啊在保興公司裡面有2024年1月2號跟2月17號1月2號跟2月17號那個是在竹坯茶園之後喔"},{"start":496.582,"end":510.059,"text":"那問題就來了啊那既然都已經逐批查驗了怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的還會被驗出來那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道我知道"},{"start":511.856,"end":529.871,"text":"這是什麼狀況?這我再釐清一下看看好 那個齁請部長齁就是說既然已經逐批查驗逐批查驗給我們所有的消費者的信心就是說我們的政府在海關做好把關了嘛那顯然不是這個樣子啊逐批查驗了竟然還進來這個 這個是什麼狀況?"},{"start":532.847,"end":533.227,"text":"我們謝謝黃國昌委員的"}]}},{"id":"150046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac7cfa364a81ec4af25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a62ff8e0841230419b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"15:59:07 - 16:08:18","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":551,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:08:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T15:59:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2156,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（15時59分）有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。我想我們從早上到下午，這個虐嬰致死的悲劇讓整個社會都很震驚，我們也檢討了非常多，我其實想先請問部長，您是哪一個部的部長？"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部。"],["范委員雲：對，衛福部根據官網的職責是：中央衛生福利部為我國最高衛生及社會福利行政機關，負責全國衛生及社會福利行政事務，並對各級地方衛生及社會福利機關負有業務指導、監督和協調的責任。這個沒錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["范委員雲：所以我想這件事情第一線的機構─地方政府當然是很有責任，可是中央呢？我想你們之前也有聲明過，中央有明確的監督、指導、協調的責任。我今天主要是針對社工的事情想請問您，全國除了衛生是您督導，全國社會福利事務責任上也是由您總督導，沒錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["范委員雲：因為衛福部3月13號有三點聲明，我看到新聞都是次長李麗芬跟社工司蘇司長在回應，我想請問您，對這次社工被上手銬的事件，您個人有什麼看法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分，當然個案是否有刑事上的責任，我們靜待調查之後，我們先不予置評；但是對於全國的社工在他們的工作上面所做的努力，讓整個國家的社會安全網能夠維持住，我們是非常的感激的，至於這個過程當中有上手銬這樣的一個做法，我想警政機關也已經做出了檢討。"],["范委員雲：所以您也覺得警政機關應該檢討嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，他們已經做了檢討。"],["范委員雲：好。那我是想請問，衛福部為我們第一線社工做了哪些事？因為其實社工的工作有非常多暴力行為的當事人，是一個高風險的工作，以我這邊的資料，網路上在這次事件之後，社工講到自己的安全，譬如有一位就講：找警察共訪，警察叫社工先深入險境，警察在外面等；還有就是家暴的時候被相對人反鎖在家裡、家訪完被黑衣人圍毆。所以其實社工本身常常會面對出現暴力行為的當事人，我想請問，您做為部長您知道，雖然衛福部的相關的安全指引有講到「得請求警察」，因為這是你們自己中央的指引裡面寫的，可是警察也可以拒絕、不完全配合耶。因為我查到的是，臺中市政府也是只寫「得」，卻沒有寫警察一定得配合；高雄市政府是我找到裡面有寫「被請求之機關應予配合」，很明確的說當社工得請求警察機關配合的時候，我只看到……當然我沒有把全國都找完，可是衛福部做為中央，似乎在這個部分還相對不足，這是第一個我想講的。","你看到這次因為這個創傷，社工的一些臉書就請大家來分享各自的創傷，這邊是我們的辦公室找的幾個，一位是自殺防治的社工，談完之後對方就跳下去了，然後他的創傷是沒能把對方留到警察到現場；另一位是服務一位開瓦斯自殺案主的社工，後來他也是不斷的哭哪裡沒做好、不斷的自責自己。這邊右上方是一位讓新生兒從母親身旁被帶走的社工，因為擔心母親是不是有虐待小孩，但是後來這位母親，也就是相對人就自殺了，所以這位社工也活在懷疑自己決定安置小孩是不是對的、母親是不是其實沒有虐待小孩，而以此捍衛自己的清白？最後一位是他的案主後來涉入刑事案件被上銬帶走，案主走之前還跟他揮手道別，所以他也很自責是不是自己做得不夠好，導致案主出事。所以我想部長並不會反對社工的工作其實面對非常多的創傷以及有很多的自責，部長不反對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實這些都是一些遺憾的案例。"],["范委員雲：當然都是案例，可是我們隨便找找，在這次事件之後就有人有這麼多分享。我要講的事情是我希望部長可以了解，衛福部如果是社福的主管機關，那麼社工就是社安網最基層的勞工，他們面臨到的是一個保護很少、創傷跟自責很多的工作，所以現在社工已經自主的把3月12日，也就是社工被上銬那天叫做社工集體創傷日，社工工會馬上就要來衛福部門口抗議了！所以我想請問部長，你有什麼對策？面對全臺社工已經在一個高風險的工作環境，我們給他們的資源、保護非常少，可是他們工作的本質就是創傷非常多，加上這個上銬的事情，衛福部雖有反應，但是也是慢了半拍，在公會發了聲明之後第二天，次長有出來反應，提出三點聲明。衛福部有什麼對策？面對我們安全網最基層的勞工現在的這個集體創傷。"],["薛部長瑞元：第一，對於社工執行業務的時候，缺乏保護的這個部分，我們會再跟警政單位來做一個協調，我們希望這個協助是更有效率的。"],["范委員雲：好，所以第一點，你們自己中央的手冊就應該要白紙黑字寫警察機關必須要配合嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以……"],["范委員雲：不該是像社工看到的，還說：社工你先進去，我在外面等你。社工有權利要求他陪他進去嗎？不可能嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分的SOP就必須大家一起……"],["范委員雲：必須要檢討修正。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，把它制定下來。"],["范委員雲：那其他呢？社工的創傷也很多這些？我們就不講待遇了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分當然我們是希望能夠把大家整合起來，因為這方面，所謂的集體創傷要去宣洩出來，我們應該有提供這樣子一個管道可以來做。第三個部分就是對於社工在執行業務所發生的一些事情、一些困難需要有支持，除了他原單位裡面可能會有督導的系統來做支持之外，我們希望未來在部裡面也應該有一個這樣的平臺，來接受他們的一些意見或者一些經驗，能夠有專家來……"],["范委員雲：好，因為時間緣故，我剛聽到三點，第一個是針對警察應協助社工部分，你會去修改中央相關的規定指引。"],["薛部長瑞元：我會跟警察機關來……"],["范委員雲：第二個是社工的創傷，你們會有相關的輔導跟服務。第三個是你們這個系統的部分也會檢視。我想要儘快邀我們全國的社工，一起來聽聽他們集體的心聲。我是覺得還是非常不夠，為什麼今天要請部長您來答？因為我們衛福部長期以衛生為主導，社福總是次長在領導，我會認為部長應該要更花心思出來理解我們社會福利，尤其是我們社安網基層勞工的心聲，如果連社工都大幅出走的話，那我很難想像我們的社安網如何給民眾信心。好不好？拜託部長可不可以給我的辦公室一個報告，好嗎？就剛剛您承諾的那幾點，當然還可以有更多，可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["范委員雲：多久會給我一個報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個禮拜。"],["范委員雲：兩個禮拜？好，謝謝部長，加油，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請林思銘委員。林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","黃健豪、黃健豪、黃健豪委員不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","林國成委員、林國成委員、林國成委員不在。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員進行諮詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.11034375,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.54034375,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":15.707843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.028468750000002,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.40971875,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.98346875,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.07346875,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.39346875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.50159375000001,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.59846875000001,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.89721875000001,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.28909375,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.66409375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":197.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.92409375000003,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.73721875,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.40534375000001,"end":307.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.40471875000003,"end":312.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.48846875000004,"end":312.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.91034375000004,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.01159375000003,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.07909375,"end":385.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.94346875,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.93909375000004,"end":318.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.32096875,"end":402.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.24909375000004,"end":386.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.50159375000004,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.63909375000003,"end":414.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.80659375000005,"end":410.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.17721875,"end":418.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.22784375000003,"end":414.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.61971875,"end":424.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.41659375,"end":423.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.60596875000005,"end":429.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.41159375,"end":426.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.44534375,"end":426.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.10346875000005,"end":428.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.29721875,"end":437.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.08909375,"end":448.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.09159375,"end":451.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.16284375000004,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.41034375000004,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.87284375,"end":482.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.75721875000005,"end":485.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.95096875,"end":541.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.47409375,"end":485.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.57409375000003,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.96846875,"end":535.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.9040937500001,"end":543.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.2959687499999,"end":545.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.17346875,"end":546.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.76409375,"end":547.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.4897187500001,"end":550.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.21909375,"end":551.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.311,"end":8.772,"text":"有請部長有請薛部長部長午安我想我們從早上到下午這個虐因致死的悲劇讓整個社會都很震驚我們也檢討了非常多我其實是想先請問部長您是哪一個部的部長"},{"start":35.061,"end":50.059,"text":"衛福部的根據官網職責是在中央衛生福利部為我國最高衛生及社會福利行政機關負責全國衛生及社會福利行政事務並對各級地方衛生及社會福利機關負有業務指導監督和協調的責任這個沒錯吧"},{"start":54.163,"end":80.475,"text":"所以我想這件事情第一線的機構地方政府當然是很有責任可是中央我想你們之前也有聲明過有明確的監督指導協調的責任我今天主要是針對社工的事情想請問您全國除了衛生是您督導全國社會福利事務責任上也是由您總督導沒錯吧"},{"start":82.168,"end":105.186,"text":"那因為衛福部3月13號有三點聲明我看到新聞都是次長李立芬跟社工司長蘇司長在回應我想請問您個人這次社工被上手銬的事件您個人有什麼看法這一個部分的話當然個案是否有刑事上的責任這個我們近代這個調查之後我們先不以置評"},{"start":106.147,"end":129.046,"text":"但是對於我們全國的社工在他們的工作上面所做的努力讓整個國家的這個社會安全網能夠維持住對我們是非常的感激的那至於說這個過程當中有這樣上手銬的做法的話我想警政機關也已經做出了檢討"},{"start":131.008,"end":134.715,"text":"所以你也覺得警政機關應該檢討嗎?對,他們已經做了檢討那我是想請問,就是說衛福部下一頁"},{"start":142.049,"end":166.42,"text":"衛福部就是為我們第一線社工做了哪些事因為其實社工的工作有非常多的暴力行為的當事人他是個高風險的工作以我這邊就是網路上這次事件之後社工講到自己的安全的時候譬如說有一位就講找警察供訪警察叫社工先深入險境警察在外面等"},{"start":167.48,"end":190.797,"text":"還有就是家暴的時候被相對人反鎖在家裡家訪完被黑衣人圍毆所以其實社工本身常常會面對出現暴力行為的當事人那我想請問就是說您作為部長您知道雖然衛福部的相關的安全指引有講到"},{"start":191.457,"end":206.462,"text":"得請求警察,因為這是你們自己中央裡面有寫的,可是警察也可以拒絕,不完全配合,因為我查到的是,高雄台中市政府也是只有寫得,卻沒有寫警察一定得配合"},{"start":207.102,"end":228.291,"text":"高雄市政府是我找到裡面有寫被請求之機關應與配合很明確的說當社工得請求警察機關的配合的時候那我只看到當然我沒有把全國都找完了可是衛福部作為這個中央的部分似乎在這個部分還相對的不足這是第一個我想講的"},{"start":228.951,"end":249.422,"text":"可是你看到就是說這次因為這個創傷那社工的一些臉書上就請大家來分享各自的創傷那這邊是我們的辦公室找了幾個一位是自殺防治的社工談完之後對方就跳下去了然後他的創傷是沒能把對方留到警察到現場那另一位呢"},{"start":250.522,"end":273.361,"text":"是服務一位開瓦斯自殺的社工,後來他也是不斷地哭,哪裡沒做好,不斷地指責自己。那這邊右上方是一位,是說他讓新生兒就是被從母親身旁帶走,因為擔心母親是不是有虐待小孩,但是後來這位母親就是相對人,就自殺了。"},{"start":274.542,"end":295.435,"text":"這位社工也活在懷疑自己的決定安置小孩是不是對的母親是不是其實沒有虐待小孩以死捍衛自己的清白最後一位是他的案主後來涉入刑事案件上銬被帶走案主走之前還跟他揮手道別所以他也很自責是不是自己做得不夠好"},{"start":296.455,"end":307.321,"text":"導致案主出事所以我想部長並不會反對就是說社工的工作其實面對到非常多的創傷已經有很多的自責部長不反對吧"},{"start":308.984,"end":330.837,"text":"其實這些都是一些遺憾的案例當然都是案例可是我們隨便找找這次事件之後就有人這麼多分享我要講的事情是我希望部長可以了解到據說衛福部如果是社福的主管機關那社工是社安網的最基層的勞工他們面臨到的是一個保護很少"},{"start":332.257,"end":350.686,"text":"創傷跟自責很多的工作所以現在社工已經自主的把3月12號就是社工上課那天叫做社工集體創傷日那他們馬上社工工會就要來衛福部門口抗議了所以我想請問就是部長"},{"start":351.366,"end":351.586,"text":"有什麼對策?"},{"start":379.322,"end":400.982,"text":"對策就面對我們安全網最基層的勞工現在的這個集體創傷那第一個就是說對於社工職員他的業務的時候那缺乏保護的這一個部分的話我們會再跟警政單位再來做一個協調我們希望這個協助是更有效率的"},{"start":401.783,"end":421.432,"text":"所以第一點你們自己中央的手冊方面就應該要白紙黑字寫警察機關必須要配合嗎?不是像社工看到的還說社工你先進去我在外面等你那社工有權利要求他陪他進去嗎?不可能嗎?所以這個部分的SOP就必須要檢討修正"},{"start":424.653,"end":448.212,"text":"那其他的社工的創傷也很多這些都不講待遇了這部分的話當然我們是希望就是說能夠把大家把它整合起來因為這方面的話那集體的一些所謂的創傷那要去宣洩出來那我們應該有提供這樣子一個管道可以來做"},{"start":449.873,"end":471.16,"text":"第三部分對於社工在執行業務所發生的一些事情、一些困難需要有支持這個支持除了原單位裡面可能會有督導這樣的一個系統來做支持之外我們希望就是說我們未來在"},{"start":471.92,"end":475.101,"text":"我剛聽到三點嘛第一個針對警察應協助社工的部分你們會去修改相關的中央的規定指引"},{"start":495.671,"end":507.207,"text":"社工的創傷你們會有相關的輔導跟服務第三點你們這個系統的部分也會檢視我想要盡快的邀我們全國的社工一起來聽聽他們的集體的心聲那我是覺得還非常不夠啦"},{"start":510.772,"end":534.651,"text":"為什麼今天要請部長您來答因為我們衛福部長期以衛生為主導社福總是次長在領導我會認為就是您部長應該要更花心思出來理解我們社會福利尤其是我們基層的社安網的勞工的心聲如果連社工都大幅出走的話那我很難想像我們社安網如何給民眾信心好不好"},{"start":535.771,"end":543.714,"text":"拜託部長,可不可以給我辦公室一個報告,好嗎?剛剛您承諾的那幾點,當然還可以有更多。可以齁,那多久會給我一個報告?兩個禮拜。兩個禮拜,好,謝謝部長,加油,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a894014f9d40f920c25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a68ad6648bb28df2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"15:51:43 - 15:58:54","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":431,"end_time":"2024-03-18T15:58:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T15:51:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2126,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（15時51分）主席好，有請部長，辛苦。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好。這次的事件其實造成臺灣社會很大的震撼，尤其是當過媽媽的人，本席非常難過，也感到痛心。本席想先請教一下部長，這個個案在12月24日死亡之後的這三個月，到底是由誰做通報的平台？誰應該做資料的彙整，然後做個案的處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果依照現行規定，第一個，地方的社會局必須向中央通報，這個部分有做，但是……"],["郭委員昱晴：他們什麼時候通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是25日。第二個要做的是，當地方判斷它是重大兒虐事件時，他們就要在10天內召開檢討會議，得到會議結論後，兩個禮拜之內要送到中央，中央會看檢討會議的紀錄，評估是否有必要再找地方政府做更詳細的說明，釐清案情的來龍去脈，以及地方提出的檢討改善措施是否可以執行。"],["郭委員昱晴：事情演變到今天，其實不管是中央或是地方，甚至是我們認可的這些兒福機構，大家應該坐下來好好談，這個制度是不是真的出現一些問題。我們回顧2011年11月，兒少權法對於收出養做出一個非常重大的決定，但是對本席來說，這個重大決定就像自廢武功，因為這個程序必須經過主管機關許可的財團法人、公私立兒童以及少年安置的教養機構，這個用意其實就是怕私下的收養、出養會產生一些弊端或問題，但是現階段只有8家核可。這次的案件是不是也代表在這其中，不管由誰來督導，其實是出現問題的，將來核可的條件是否應該更加嚴苛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。包括這8家，我們都會進一步檢討，還有許可辦法，我們也必須檢討。"],["郭委員昱晴：所謂的檢討是什麼？有沒有一個具體的方案？因為其實我覺得大家想要看的是這個部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為我們必須……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為有太多太多捐款人他們的愛心其實真的被辜負了，我們必須老實說。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以對這8家我們應該要去做一些業務上面的要求，比方說它的員工薪資、它的訪視的機制，包括它去判斷這個出養的必要性等等，當然未來出養必要性就不會在這裡了。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，今天因為時間的關係，我快速的……因為這次的這個案件，剴剴他渾身上下……其實我們看到的，他幾乎已經是被虐殺的一個狀況，大家都非常的不忍。當然我們也暫緩了兒福聯盟的業務，暫緩之後，我們的政府要怎麼補上呢？怎麼補救呢？收、出養部分是先暫緩了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，目前新收的先暫停了，接下來我們可能就要去了解這個基金會本身內部對於這些社工的教育訓練、還有薪資條件等等到底是不是適合，如果不太適合，那就要求它改善。另外對於這一些社工要進入去做訪視，這個訪視的頻率是否適當、還有訪視的結果有沒有回報到機構裡面的督導，而督導對於訪視有沒有去做進一步的指示，要求再度訪視還是怎麼樣等等，這些我們都會去看。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為其實我們也擔心這8家是不是等於有一點點寡占整個收、出養的市場了，所以這個部分麻煩再更加的嚴格、更加的嚴苛來做反省跟檢討，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們現在就準備這樣做。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外剛剛有提到人力的部分，包含我們的社工，其實他們的工作量案是非常非常之大的，當然我們也知道，從今年開始社工的薪資部分其實有做了一些調整，可是針對所謂的風險加給這個部分，我們採用了所謂的定額制，這個定額制其實真的也形同已經取消了風險分級，相對來講，其實有些社工他們會覺得是變相的被減薪？這個部分我不知道這邊有沒有一個說法和了解？"],["薛部長瑞元：我請社工司司長說明一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：可以。"],["蘇司長昭如：因為在我們執行社安網之後，比較高度的公權力執行都已經回歸到公部門的社工，所以在民間社工的部分，我們在這次調整薪資是有擴大適用的範圍，然後我們都把它歸到一個人可以領同一個金額這樣的方式。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是其實我們也會擔心所謂必須要民間力量的一些初級以及次級的預防工作反而會沒有人來擔任，你們有考慮到這個問題嗎？"],["蘇司長昭如：應該還是有，所以我們會從各個方案部分去做一個檢討，以及在今年也配合軍公教的調整，今年開始薪資的起薪都已經調整到8.16，另外還有一些專業加給跟學歷加給。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實針對這一次剴剴的事件真的是全臺灣人的痛，我們真的誠懇的希望不管是地方也好、中央也好，我們不希望這個孩子在最後痛苦離開的時候，只收到來自於機構一個冰冷的屍袋。我衷心期盼，不要再有下一個孩子受害了，我們一起來努力好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢。","接下來我們請葉元之委員。葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請范雲委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.98721875,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.37096875,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.20596875,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.86346875,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.88034375,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.23034375,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.772843750000003,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.59909375,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.290343750000005,"end":53.204093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.524718750000005,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.367218750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.73409375000001,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.85909375,"end":101.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.61846875,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.27534375,"end":110.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.08096875000001,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.88596875,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.63221875,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.59784375000001,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.44534375,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.06034375000002,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.52846875,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.98284375,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":187.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.34346875,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.37721875000003,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.20659375000002,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.94909375,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.32096875000002,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.81034375000002,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.43346875,"end":244.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.30909375000002,"end":247.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.34284375000001,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.65034375000002,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.08471875,"end":256.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.84409375,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.47659375,"end":253.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.63221875,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.57221875,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.44034375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.68721875,"end":292.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.44096875,"end":298.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.01409375000003,"end":298.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.90409375,"end":302.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.80221875,"end":308.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.95784375,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.99534375,"end":312.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.52221875000004,"end":314.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.19284375,"end":316.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.57221875000005,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.63971875000004,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.06159375000004,"end":321.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.56721875,"end":324.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.27971875000003,"end":332.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.94096875,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.20659375,"end":339.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.47159375,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.64721875000004,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.57096875,"end":353.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.33034375,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.21159375,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.02284375000005,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.68346875000003,"end":406.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.82409375000003,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.59971875,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.42534375,"end":423.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.55971875,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.66034375000004,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.28471875,"end":429.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.52096875,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.25471875000005,"end":431.74409375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.051,"end":14.808,"text":"主席好有請部長辛苦了好來部長請"},{"start":20.288,"end":40.414,"text":"部長好我想這次的這個事件其實造成臺灣社會很大的一個震撼尤其是當過媽媽的其實我自己也非常非常難過那也感到痛心那在這裡其實我想要先請教一下部長到底當這個個案他在12月24號死亡"},{"start":41.394,"end":41.534,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":53.567,"end":73.985,"text":"如果依照現行的規定是這樣子那第一個地方社會局必須要向中央來做通報這個有做他們在什麼時候通報的?應該25號但是第二個要做的就是地方就必須判斷他是重大"},{"start":74.845,"end":101.955,"text":"而那事件的時候他就要召開檢討會議在10天之內要召開召開之後有了這個會議的結論的話兩個禮拜之內要送到中央來中央的話會看他的這個檢討會議的記錄來評估說有沒有必要再找地方政府過來做更詳細的說明他釐清這個案情的來龍去脈"},{"start":103.535,"end":120.782,"text":"以及這個地方提出的這個檢討的這個改善的措施是否可以執行?我想因為事情演變到今天其實我覺得不管是中央或者地方甚至於在所謂的我們認可的這些兒福的機構"},{"start":121.722,"end":121.842,"text":"對我來說啦"},{"start":138.158,"end":156.045,"text":"這個重大的決定就像是自廢武功是一樣的一個道理那當然必須經過所謂的主管機關許可的財團法人公私立兒童以及少年安置的一個教養機構當然這樣子的一個用意其實就是為了怕私下的所謂的這個收養、出養"},{"start":156.792,"end":157.052,"text":"主席"},{"start":178.05,"end":186.323,"text":"對,其實我們整個8家那這些都會再進一步來做一些檢討,包括這個許可的辦法,我們也必須要做檢討。"},{"start":187.449,"end":211,"text":"所謂的檢討是什麼?有沒有一個具體的一個方案?因為其實我覺得大家想要看的是這個部分因為有太多太多捐款人他們的愛心其實真的被辜負了我們必須老實的說對這8家的話我們應該要去做一些業務上面的要求比如說他的這個員工薪資他的這個訪視的機制"},{"start":213.501,"end":237.462,"text":"包括說他去判斷出洋的必要性等等當然未來出洋必要性就不會在這裡了那今天是因為時間的關係我快速的其實在目前為止我們知道所有的這個因為這次的這個案件凱凱他渾身上下其實我們看到的他幾乎已經是被虐殺的一個狀況"},{"start":238.413,"end":249.387,"text":"其實大家都非常的不忍喔那當然其實我們也暫緩了這次這個額富聯盟他的一個業務那這個暫緩之後我們的政府怎麼補上呢怎麼補救呢"},{"start":251.515,"end":268.687,"text":"目前是新收的先暫停接下來的話我們可能就要去了解說他的這個基金會本身在內部的話那對於這些社工的教育訓練還有薪資條件等等這些的話到底是不是適合"},{"start":269.848,"end":298.451,"text":"那如果不太適合那要求他改善那另外的話就是對於這一些社工他要去進入去做訪視那這個訪視的頻率是否適當那還有他訪視的結果有沒有回報到機構裡面的督導去督導對於這一個有沒有去做一個進一步的指示來要求說再度訪視還是怎麼樣因為我們都會去看"},{"start":299.131,"end":299.532,"text":"對,我們現在就準備這樣做"},{"start":317.592,"end":317.832,"text":"社會福利部長"},{"start":334.272,"end":334.752,"text":"社會福利部長"},{"start":351.621,"end":352.922,"text":"社會安全網推動情形及策進作為"},{"start":376.072,"end":384.627,"text":"但是其實我們也會擔心所謂的這個必須要民間力量的一些初級以及次級的預防的工作反而會沒有人來擔任喔你們有考慮到這個問題嗎"},{"start":387.708,"end":389.109,"text":"其實真的針對這一次凱凱的事件是全台灣人的痛"},{"start":410.555,"end":410.655,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733afa40c4e44e838bb825cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6e040c9255cff6fc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:38:57 - 15:51:34","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-03-18T15:51:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T15:38:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2008,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時39分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好，辛苦了。幾件事情請教你，第一個，陳建仁院長前幾天說因為蘇丹紅的事件，所以要成立食安檢驗基金，外界覺得這是疊床架屋，因為你們已經有食安基金。食安檢驗基金和食安基金有什麼地方不一樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：食安基金的用途是針對有團體訴訟時，可以給予法律上的補助，第二個是給縣市政府在研究方面的……"],["賴委員士葆：兩者有什麼區別？本席的時間有限，請簡短說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：食安檢驗基金主要的目的，第一，如果廠商願意自主檢查，因為檢查費用很高……"],["賴委員士葆：我們不是有食藥署嗎？為什麼還要這個基金呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：主要是他們如果要自主檢查的話，因為費用可能比較高，所以希望有一個基金可以補助。"],["賴委員士葆：食藥署呢？食藥署的角色是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：所有的檢查就是食藥署在做，這是廠商自主檢查的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：食安檢驗基金什麼時候開始運作？規模多大？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分還沒有討論。"],["賴委員士葆：等討論完，520都到了，520之後你還在任嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！所以陳建仁就是丟一個煙霧彈，他的用意很清楚。因為現在距離520大概只剩2個月的時間，他卻在這時候丟出這個議題，其實到現在為止，這件事情連八字都沒一撇。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實可以在食安基金管理委員會中討論。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！所以為什麼要由一個大院長來宣布？本席覺得這很弔詭。請問你，現在發現不只是辣椒粉有問題，包括辣油、白胡椒粉、沙茶醬都含有蘇丹紅，這個問題就像水銀瀉地，到處都有蘇丹紅。你同意這句話嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不盡然啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不然呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是循線追查下去，許多後端的……"],["賴委員士葆：幾乎都有啊！請你告訴本席什麼東西沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：例如委員說的沙茶醬，不是每一個廠牌的沙茶醬都有啦！當然，如果沒有添加的這些廠商願意去做……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，如果吃到蘇丹紅，最大的副作用是什麼？什麼時候會發作？會得癌症嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實並沒有研究報告證實是否會致癌。"],["賴委員士葆：可是為什麼大家那麼害怕？如果是這樣的話，根本就不用怕，薛部長保證沒有事，大家儘管吃。這樣不就好了？"],["薛部長瑞元：它是曾經針對動物的部分研究的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：有致癌的可能。"],["薛部長瑞元：有這個可能性，至於人的部分，目前並沒有這方面的研究。"],["賴委員士葆：現在大家聽到蘇丹紅就很害怕，而且我們老實不客氣的說，薛部長帶領的衛福部團隊，到現在為止給大家的感覺就是看到蘇丹紅就舉白旗投降，因為沒有辦法查，邊境管理都是事後處理，加強檢驗也是本來就應該做的。為什麼到現在為止，你們就是一副……","現在內閣不是過渡內閣，而是擺爛內閣、無政府狀態，蘇丹紅就是最好的無政府狀態的寫實。你同意吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，我必須承認當初在做邊境把關時，警戒升級的速度太慢。"],["賴委員士葆：疏忽了！這是你們的責任。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，是我們的責任。那時候的反應不夠快，結果讓部分產品進入市場。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候知道的？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為5月時開始發現有……"],["賴委員士葆：去年5月。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為發現辣椒粉裡面有蘇丹紅，之後我們是先增加抽批的比例，應變速度的確太慢了！"],["賴委員士葆：所以本席剛才說了，現在是一個擺爛政府、無政府狀態，你同意嘛！對不對？或者你不敢否認。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是的，嚴格來說不是擺爛，本來的規範就是逐步升級。"],["賴委員士葆：你還是沒有否認本席的話。好啦！沒關係，我們跳到第二題。現在的虐兒事件，本席看了真的很難過，怎麼會有人這麼殘忍、心這麼狠地虐待孩子致死，這樣的人該抓去槍斃好幾次。你是否贊成死刑？虐兒致死事件是否應該處以死刑？你是念法律的，你贊不贊成？"],["薛部長瑞元：在現行刑法中，它是有判死刑的可能性。"],["賴委員士葆：但是在法令中，目前虐兒致死只有無期徒刑。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：有！2019年修的。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是惡意的話，它本來就是故意殺人的一種啦！不會只有無期徒刑。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你贊成判處死刑？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來他……"],["賴委員士葆：本席是問你，是否贊成這樣的事情必須判處死刑？"],["薛部長瑞元：它就是第二百七十一條裡面的殺人罪。"],["賴委員士葆：本席是和你討論刑法第二百八十六條。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是它沒有排除第二百七十一條的殺人……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！本席先問你，你是否贊成虐兒致死者應該處以死刑？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是每一個案子都是一樣的處理方式。"],["賴委員士葆：所以有些可以不必這樣處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：一定要經過調查，不然要法院做什麼？當然是要先經過調查。"],["賴委員士葆：都已經致死，很明顯是故意的，這一點已經成立。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！但是包括惡意的程度、因果關係等等，都必須經過法院審判。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！如果更進一步，是非常惡意的N次方，因而讓小孩子致死，你是否贊成死刑？以最惡意、最壞的狀況來說。"],["薛部長瑞元：依照現在的法律規定可以判處。"],["賴委員士葆：本席是問你是否贊成。"],["薛部長瑞元：你不要問這個問題，我個人的意願沒有辦法影響判決。"],["賴委員士葆：本席就問你，你是部長耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是我個人的想法不能影響司法。"],["賴委員士葆：惡意虐兒致死可以說是人神共憤、社會共憤，難道這時候你還不敢站出來講一句：我以部長的高度，我絕對贊成死刑。這句話你都不敢說？部長，你太冷血啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：因為以部長的高度，不應該去做這種判斷，我們有司法系統，我不能……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不能判斷？為什麼會這樣？難道你今天早上的道歉是假的嗎？也是因為你們管理不善，所以你們才會為這件事情道歉。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！但這兩者有什麼關係？"],["賴委員士葆：既然道歉了，就代表這件事情很不好，因為你們處理得不好，所以才要道歉，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，是很不好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：這種人難道不是惡意的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是有惡意。"],["賴委員士葆：難道不是罪大惡極嗎？這樣你還不敢說，實在是可憐啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：就我們的了解，的確可能是罪大惡極，但最後的判斷還是應該經過司法審判。"],["賴委員士葆：你認為中央必須負擔多少責任？五五開、六四開？"],["薛部長瑞元：大家都有責任。"],["賴委員士葆：比例是多少？五五嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有辦法量化啦！委員，你也知道啊！這怎麼量化？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有量化也沒有關係，但是你們最惡劣的是，臺北市報一個案例，就是兒少通報，結果你們馬上說臺北市出現兩件虐兒事件，你們就是在帶風向嘛！部長，不能這樣啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：他們是說兒少保護的通報，我們並沒有定調，我們說……"],["賴委員士葆：你們就寫「疑」，這是你們自己寫的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們說「疑」，當然就是有可能啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你們怎麼可以直接下定論。本席為什麼關心這件事？因為……"],["薛部長瑞元：不然經過剴剴這個事件，大家又會說我們沒有定見。"],["賴委員士葆：這個關愛之家就在本席的選區，實情不是你們說的那樣。因為本席沒有時間了，但相關情況本席掌握得很清楚，他就是一個移工的小孩，就住在本席選區文山區的關愛之家。"],["薛部長瑞元：其中一個啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！就是那一個，你們說那是虐兒事件，但是連里長都不贊同這種說法。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！那是死亡的個案。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！但是沒有外傷。"],["薛部長瑞元：死亡的個案，所以現在就要查原因嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼本席今天會問你？因為文山區的里長打電話給本席，他也是聯誼會的會長，關愛之家就在文山區里長聯誼會會長管轄的里內，他說衛福部部長亂說，他叫我一定要來講，你在亂說。"],["薛部長瑞元：我從來沒有說那是兒虐案件。"],["賴委員士葆：但你們說「疑」，你們應該連「疑」都不能說，對不對？而且你們有責任……"],["薛部長瑞元：不然要怎麼說？說不是兒虐嗎？我能夠這樣說嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你為什麼要提兒虐呢？臺北市政府跟你們兒少通報後，你就接受啊！你就說你們在進行調查，這樣就好了嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在本來就在調查。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你們卻給這件事戴個帽子，還說疑似。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！這是欲加之罪啦！"],["賴委員士葆：里長要欲加你之罪嗎？這麼多的里長。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！因為他們通報，所以我們就要調查啊！"],["賴委員士葆：可見你的仇恨值很高，連里長都很討厭你。最後一個問題，因為時間到了。現在健保點數是一點換零點幾元？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果計算到最後，大概都在0.9元左右。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以調成1元？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要總額預算制度都推翻才有可能。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！本席知道，但是本席接到很多陳情，大家覺得點數不好記，直接用錢計算比較好，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是總額預算制度就是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以改？有沒有時間表？"],["薛部長瑞元：可能要修法。"],["賴委員士葆：本席一直有個疑問，520之後你會不會留下來？雖然你屬於新潮流派系，留下來的機會很大。"],["薛部長瑞元：和這個無關。"],["賴委員士葆：就這兩件很荒謬的事情，過渡內閣不應該做一些比較大的改變，食安檢驗基金不應該由過渡政府啟動。第二個，你現在開口閉口說，包括點數等等都要修法或做什麼的，一副你要留任的樣子，當然，在野黨站在競爭的角度，我們歡迎你留下來，因為你的仇恨值不小，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：健保點數調成1元的確是要修法，這是絕對沒有錯。委員的意思是我不應該提修法？"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有這麼說，我哪裡……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！因為你說重大的事情不能……"],["賴委員士葆：本席已經不說話了，但你還一直說，是你在拖延我們的時間。"],["主席：部長先回去休息。"],["賴委員士葆：我要提的是，因為醫界有這樣的聲音，本席希望你們能聽到，而且你們修法根本就來不及，因為你們還要層層開會，除非520之後你要留下來。本席的重點是社會普遍都是討厭你的聲音，你留下來是國家的災難，可是我們在野黨會鼓掌，本席的重點是這個，請你聽清楚。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。","接下來請張雅琳。張雅琳、張雅琳委員不在。","請郭昱晴委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.93284375,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.011593750000003,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.137218750000002,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.83721875,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.84909375,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.65471875,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.650343750000005,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.502218750000004,"end":38.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":43.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.56846875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.99846875,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.95159375,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.790343750000005,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":68.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.13846875,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.65971875000001,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.14034375,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.23721875000001,"end":93.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.04596875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.68284375,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.22596875,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.60471875,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.95034375,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.58284375000001,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.43909375000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.19846875,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.00846875,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.25721875,"end":120.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.48034375,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.52221875000001,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.91409375,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.99346875,"end":132.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.12846875,"end":138.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.54846875,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.64909375000002,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.90471875,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":163.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.12784375,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.60034375,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.49784375000002,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.16846875000002,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.67846875,"end":176.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.81346875,"end":177.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.16346875000002,"end":181.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.09534375,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.50721875000002,"end":193.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.97534375,"end":196.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.13534375,"end":196.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.16909375,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.92846875,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.24909375000001,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.73409375,"end":206.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.36159375000003,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.41221875000002,"end":208.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.46659375000002,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.99784375000002,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.34784375,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.08971875,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.72221875000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.67096875000001,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.03784375,"end":226.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.83096875,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.93159375000002,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.34909375,"end":232.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.20971875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.06159375000001,"end":240.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.44909375,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.16096875000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.76784375000003,"end":257.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.52659375,"end":263.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.90534375000004,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.95596875,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.97284375000004,"end":263.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.47909375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.52971875000003,"end":289.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.71534375000005,"end":265.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.17909375,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.69721875,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.15221875000003,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.36721875,"end":279.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.56034375,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.01534375,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.80846875000003,"end":289.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.06159375000004,"end":299.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.48221875,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.78159375,"end":299.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.10221875,"end":300.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.11909375000005,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.96284375000005,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.97534375000004,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.02596875,"end":306.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.56596875,"end":303.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.35471875,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.17721875,"end":306.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.15596875,"end":307.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.62846875,"end":313.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.98221875,"end":315.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.07846875,"end":317.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.17534375,"end":319.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.93034375,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.55034375,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.76096875,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.25846875,"end":327.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.26659375,"end":330.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.57846875,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.45971875000004,"end":335.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.22721875,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.87659375000004,"end":340.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.23096875000005,"end":345.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.35659375,"end":346.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.37346875000003,"end":346.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.57596875,"end":346.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.60971875,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.77846875,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.96409375,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.03159375,"end":347.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.41971875,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.26346875,"end":349.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.59659375,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.03534375000004,"end":350.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.98034375000003,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.34721875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.41471875,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.23721875,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.43409375000005,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.65346875,"end":365.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.32784375,"end":370.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.84221875000003,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.96034375000005,"end":372.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.04471875,"end":376.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.71471875000003,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":377.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.22096875,"end":377.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.40659375,"end":377.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.47409375,"end":377.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.96346875,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.99721875,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.04784375,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.08159375,"end":378.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.35159375,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.97596875000005,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.02659375,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.26284375,"end":379.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.46534375000005,"end":380.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.93346875000003,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.03034375000004,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.97909375,"end":387.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.75034375,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.18471875,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.02846875,"end":399.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.22221875,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.38659375000003,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.20909375,"end":399.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.29346875000005,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.64784375000005,"end":401.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.01471875000004,"end":408.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.32159375000003,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.66721875,"end":411.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.87784375,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.02534375000005,"end":414.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.53159375,"end":431.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.40034375000005,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.43784375,"end":421.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.96034375000005,"end":426.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.11971875,"end":436.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.98034375000003,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.11534375,"end":432.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.97534375000004,"end":447.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.03721875,"end":454.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.88846875,"end":454.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.44096875,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.96409375,"end":463.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.02284375000005,"end":457.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.73909375000005,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.32971875000004,"end":465.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.72596875000005,"end":475.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.64534375000005,"end":470.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.02909375,"end":471.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.34534375000004,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.51784375000005,"end":478.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.36159375000005,"end":477.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.52596875,"end":477.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.33159375,"end":488.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.32284375,"end":484.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.69346875,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.06846875,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.97534375000004,"end":494.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.36284375,"end":498.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.92346875000004,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.94034375,"end":498.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.95721875000004,"end":498.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.97409375,"end":499.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.80096875000004,"end":499.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.45909375,"end":504.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.83034375000005,"end":501.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.35284375000003,"end":505.36971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.36971875000006,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.16659375000006,"end":510.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.05659375000005,"end":515.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.5915937500001,"end":518.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.19034375,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.1984687500001,"end":540.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.46846875,"end":521.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.8015937499999,"end":523.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.76721875,"end":531.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.0659687500001,"end":532.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.9897187500001,"end":534.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.8115937499999,"end":552.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.1953437500001,"end":541.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.82221875,"end":555.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.35346875,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.72471875,"end":556.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.3490937500001,"end":556.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.14221875,"end":560.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.3315937500001,"end":564.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.1372187500001,"end":562.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.4153437500001,"end":566.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.56284375,"end":566.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.6765937499999,"end":566.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.8115937499999,"end":566.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.9128437500001,"end":566.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.96346875,"end":567.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.03096875,"end":567.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0478437500001,"end":567.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.0647187500001,"end":568.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.16596875,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.0390937500001,"end":569.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.07284375,"end":569.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.23721875,"end":576.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.12221875,"end":578.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.24846875,"end":580.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.0034687500001,"end":582.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.02846875,"end":585.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.6440937500001,"end":586.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.26846875,"end":588.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.66471875,"end":589.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.0359687499999,"end":589.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.5759687500001,"end":589.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.5928437499999,"end":596.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.4865937500001,"end":596.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.56221875,"end":598.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.92471875,"end":600.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.19471875,"end":600.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.6415937500001,"end":605.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.3372187500001,"end":620.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.52534375,"end":617.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.5378437500001,"end":617.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.31409375,"end":618.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.6684687500001,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.9709687500001,"end":632.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.59096875,"end":629.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.1259687500001,"end":637.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.02409375,"end":643.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.77846875,"end":645.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.5334687500001,"end":645.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.73596875,"end":645.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.9722187500001,"end":646.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.15784375,"end":646.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.2590937500001,"end":646.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.3940937500001,"end":646.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.69784375,"end":646.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.98471875,"end":651.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.24971875,"end":653.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.46471875,"end":653.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.7178437499999,"end":653.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.9709687500001,"end":654.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.2240937500001,"end":654.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.34221875,"end":656.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.7722187500001,"end":657.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.39221875,"end":660.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.63659375,"end":661.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.46346875,"end":661.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.63221875,"end":663.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.8684687500001,"end":668.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.0109687500001,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.2978437500001,"end":669.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.36534375,"end":668.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.0022187500001,"end":672.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.59659375,"end":674.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.2040937500001,"end":681.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.07221875,"end":682.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.7722187500001,"end":689.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.17221875,"end":691.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.3490937500001,"end":691.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.4797187500001,"end":693.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.42471875,"end":699.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.5165937500001,"end":701.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.44034375,"end":701.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.6553437500002,"end":708.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.44346875,"end":713.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.92784375,"end":714.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.5690937500001,"end":717.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.60659375,"end":718.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.2097187500001,"end":719.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.1884687500001,"end":723.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.5678437500001,"end":724.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.06971875,"end":724.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.18784375,"end":728.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.28846875,"end":729.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.3559687500001,"end":730.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.56659375,"end":733.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.4734687499999,"end":737.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.6709687500002,"end":747.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.94784375,"end":752.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.87534375,"end":753.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.74846875,"end":755.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.6765937499999,"end":757.1784687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.769,"text":"謝謝主席,以及各位先進有請薛部長好,請部長幾件事情請教你,第一個有關於這個"},{"start":25.378,"end":54.053,"text":"陳建仁部長前幾天說院長為了要為了蘇戴隆的事件說要成立食安檢驗基金外界覺得就是疊從家戶而且你已經有食安基金了你這個食安檢驗基金跟食安基金什麼不一樣?什麼地方不一樣?食安基金目前本來在做的就是說"},{"start":55.113,"end":82.936,"text":"這些錢可以做什麼?對於有這種團體輸送的時候可以給他法律上面的一些補助那第二個就是給縣市政府在一些研究上面的話區別什麼區別?但是食安檢驗基金聽起來的話主要是這廠商如果他願意自主檢查阿我們不是有食藥主人嗎?為什麼還有這個基金?"},{"start":84.618,"end":108.133,"text":"主要是說他要自主檢查的話那可能就是說這一個費用是比較高的所以他們希望說有一個基金來做補助基金來做補助?阿食藥署勒?食藥署叫食藥署勒?食藥署都檢查就是食藥署在做的我們講的是廠商如果要做自主檢查你這個食安檢驗基金什麼時候要開始運作?規模多大?這個部分還沒有討論阿討論完都50,000啊"},{"start":113.615,"end":119.909,"text":"阿520之後你還在?我們在蛤?是啊所以這個東西陳建仁是丟一個煙霧彈阿"},{"start":121.596,"end":140.547,"text":"很清楚看得到啊因為這個距離520的時間大概兩個月520差不多兩個月的時間丟出這個東西到現在你八字沒一撇啊這個其實是在食安基金管理的這個所謂的委員會裡面的話可以去做的是啊為什麼要有一個大院長來宣布我覺得這裡面呢很弔詭我就請問你我這樣的一句話"},{"start":146.511,"end":150.152,"text":"因為現在發現不是只有這個蘇丹榮現在看到的時候蠟油、紅紅的、白胡椒粉也有沙茶醬也有幾乎像水銀瀉地到處都有蘇丹榮我講這句話同意嗎應該不盡然了所以現在就是說因為循線著這個追查下去的話會到許多後面幾乎都有啊"},{"start":173.218,"end":191.046,"text":"你什麼地方沒有你告訴我不是你告訴我你告訴我比方說委員講說這一個所謂的莎莎醬不是每一個廠牌的莎莎醬都有所以當然如果他沒有加的這些廠牌廠商的話他就願意要去做這個部長啊"},{"start":192.65,"end":210.26,"text":"吃到蘇德隆最大的副作用是什麼?什麼時候會發作?這個部分他的癌症是否會治癌其實並沒有在這一個研究的報告出來可是為什麼每天都不洗如果這樣子的話我根本就說不用怕我學部長保證"},{"start":211.701,"end":212.421,"text":"而且衛福部老實不客氣說"},{"start":236.167,"end":251.98,"text":"學業部長帶領的衛福部團隊到現在為止給人家感覺就是看到蘇丹龍就舉牌起投降因為沒辦法查什麼邊境管理都是事後啦加強檢驗那個都知道本來就知道為什麼會到現在為止你們就是一副這個內閣變成一個不是你說過度內閣不是過度內閣喔白爛內閣喔無政府狀態喔蘇丹龍就是最好的無政府狀態的系統"},{"start":264.551,"end":267.812,"text":"我必須要承認說當初在邊境把關那個升級的速度太慢反應不夠快結果讓有部分的產品就跑到因為五月的時候開始發現說有"},{"start":290.14,"end":293.142,"text":"所以你還是沒有否認我講的話啦好啦沒關係啦我們就調第二題來這個現在來講"},{"start":319.995,"end":324.257,"text":"這個本來就是在現行的刑法裡面他就是有這死刑的可能性"},{"start":347.595,"end":367.286,"text":"沒有啦有!119年修的!如果是惡意的話他本來就是故意殺人的一種啦不會說只有無期徒刑所以你贊成死刑?我問你贊不贊成對這樣事情死刑?他就是221條286我跟妳講286"},{"start":370.888,"end":386.86,"text":"刑法282 但是他沒有排除271條的殺人法我先問你 你贊不贊成 內核致死的案犯者應該要死刑 贊不贊成沒有說每一個案子都一樣的一個處理所以有些可以這樣處理"},{"start":388.601,"end":399.072,"text":"蛤?阿一定致死了!你故意!你已經成立!惡意!還有成立喔!好啦!阿如果!那再進一步!最惡意的情況!惡意!非常惡意!非常惡意的N字房!然後讓小孩子致死!你正不正的實行?"},{"start":413.112,"end":437.898,"text":"最惡意、最壞依照現在法律規定是可以判處可以判處?你贊不贊成?我問你啊你不要問我這個問題這個我個人的意願沒有辦法去影響到這個問題你是部長餒對,但是我個人的想法不能夠去影響到整個的惡意的虐兒致死以及人神共憤、社會共憤這個時候你難道不敢講一句說我與部長的一個高度"},{"start":441.099,"end":445.423,"text":"我絕對贊成死刑這一句話你都不敢講你太冷血啦這個因為部長的高度不應該去做這種判斷所以不能判斷因為他為什麼會這樣子有一個司法系統在那邊你今天早上難道你道歉道歉假的啊也是因為你們管理不善你已經對這個事情道歉了你已經對這個事情道歉了"},{"start":467.322,"end":468.342,"text":"中央地方的責任你認為多少開?五五開?六四開?多少開?你跟我講一下"},{"start":495.807,"end":512.42,"text":"大家都有責任嗎?這個沒辦法去做量化委員你也知道啊這怎麼量化我跟你講沒有量化沒有關係但是你們最惡劣的是臺北市就報一個說北市兒少通報結果你們馬上說臺北市出來兩個孽兒"},{"start":519.229,"end":523.952,"text":"你們帶風向啊!部長!不能這樣子啦!兒少保護的通報!那我們並沒有說...兒少保護的通報!移啊!你們就先移一次!你自己寫啊!你怎麼可以這樣子就下定論?我為什麼關心這個事?"},{"start":535.419,"end":543.482,"text":"因為這兩個這個關愛之家在我的選區情況不是你講那個樣子情況我沒有時間了情況我掌握得很清楚他就是一個移工的小孩在關愛之家就在文山區的選區裡面"},{"start":557.388,"end":565.051,"text":"對啦就是那個你敢說你敢說你敢說是虐兒這東西里長都反對阿對啦阿就不愛上阿就不愛上那個你講這個我為什麼今天已經問你因為我的里長打電話給我喔不是我的里長文山區的里長他也是聯議會的會長"},{"start":579.495,"end":599.246,"text":"國外職交就在文山區的一個里長連理會會長的那個里裡面他說衛生、衛生、衛生部的部長軟骨叫我一天來講你叫軟骨,你就軟骨我從來沒說那些事你現在說啊,不能講,你都不能講啊你有責任就這樣"},{"start":601.704,"end":605.788,"text":"不是嗎?不是額內嗎?我能夠這樣講嗎?你為什麼要提額內呢?你就按照人家臺北市政府給你通報就是額哨的額哨通報你就接受你說我們要調查的話你不這樣子你就戴個帽子噢噢噢"},{"start":620.461,"end":620.601,"text":"最後一個時間到了齁"},{"start":634.144,"end":651.427,"text":"你現在的健保點數1點換幾塊錢?0點幾?如果計算到最後的話大概都要0.90.9左右啦齁?什麼時候可以到1塊錢?這要整個的總額預算制度要翻掉才有可能"},{"start":653.022,"end":654.863,"text":"總的說預算次數底下就這樣子什麼時候可以時間表"},{"start":670.226,"end":670.286,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":692.515,"end":696.458,"text":"建保一塊錢這次這次要修法是絕對沒有錯那我的意思是說我不應該提修法好"},{"start":720.25,"end":721.49,"text":"社會對你普遍是討厭你的"},{"start":748.176,"end":748.216,"text":"賴士葆"}]}},{"id":"150043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a1dceeb27ef2209c925cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a687561c4690c68a315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"15:29:32 - 15:38:42","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":550,"end_time":"2024-03-18T15:38:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T15:29:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1969,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（15時29分）謝謝主席。有請部長和李次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長和次長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長辛苦了，午安。本席就社安網快速和部長討論，這次大家討論的焦點都在社工身上，我們認識非常多在第一線的社工朋友們，或者我們過往熟悉的老師、朋友。本席有件事情要和部長積極討論，也許今天時間有限，我們之後再到辦公室繼續討論。","部長是否認同本席以下要說的這段話，是不是任何系統都難以完全阻止故意的犯錯？社安網或者是保母系統都有這個問題，我們是不是只能透過層層的機制把關，確保後續不會再有相關的悲劇發生？所以今天才會有這個業務報告。本席這個說法，部長和李次長是否同意？"],["薛部長瑞元：的確啦！故意的、有惡意的，這方面其實是……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們確實難以防堵，但是機制的設計可以讓很多事情……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們儘量藉由多方監測來防止這樣的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：家外安置和照顧系統是否需要全面檢討？孩子如何離開家？我們要進一步想一想，在照顧的過程當中，尤其是像剴剴這樣的案例，必須由國家承擔照顧的責任，失去原生家庭功能的這些小孩，他們所需要的相關資源，包含教育、醫療等等，我們想像的是社會安全網，而不是社工安全網。關於這件事情，是不是請部長或是李次長表態，讓我們第一線所有的基層工作人員不要因為上次上銬事件而感到悲痛，因為他們不是被犧牲的對象。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，應該是社會安全網，不是社工安全網。社工只是執行社會安全網任務的其中一環，有很多地方還是需要仰賴各種不同的協助，包括警政、學校等等，這些都是社安網的一環。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們都希望趕快把社安網補上。撇除剴剴的案例，因為這確實是一個特例，本席覺得未來大家要想像的是通案該怎麼處理，這麼多沒有依靠的兒少，他們的替代性照顧到底是不是國家的責任？是地方的責任？是中央的責任？還是地方和中央必須承擔的責任？這個部分也請部長有所表態，因為如果不思考這件問題，我們會覺得所有的政策都是為了補這次的破網。如果國家願意承擔，並且肯認照顧這些孩子確實是我們的責任，那本席相信後續的做法和態度會非常不一樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是國家的責任，國家包括地方和中央，各自有不同的任務。"],["陳委員培瑜：要分工，這一點我們認同，也很開心聽到部長說這是國家的責任。去年質詢時也和部長討論過關於社安網的漏洞，例如光是電腦系統，我們就可以看出問題。部長，本席要和你分享一下，頁面左邊這個綠色欄位的標題，這是根據CRC中央公告的網站，裡面是相關違反兒少事件必須公布姓名的案例。","右邊是新竹縣的部分，也就是新竹縣在2022年1月到2024年1月，本席只是以新竹縣為例，這兩年之間，發生在新竹縣的事件，衛福部公告23筆，可是地方政府公告41筆。照理說這應該是一樣的事情，只是登錄在兩個系統，為什麼會有這麼大的數字落差？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分是不是請……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以本席剛才說要請李次長上台。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝。這個部分是因為中央公告的網站和地方公告的地方不一致，我剛才也有請同仁要檢討這部分應該怎麼更新，讓兩邊的資料可以隨時連動，我們會在系統上面精進、改進。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實去年12月部長就已經答應，但本席相信部長一定不知道發生了什麼事情。本席再和部長分享其中一個案例，我們隨便點進去一個畫面就會發現，每一個上傳到中央CRC系統的案例內容都不同，有的地方政府只上傳一個桌面截圖，但是你按進去看另外一個事件，那個地方政府卻很認真的把案由寫出來，而有的地方政府只是公告相關的公文。","也就是說，相關的兒少事件，中央和地方並沒有良好的默契，到底我們要公告什麼樣的資料供一般民眾查詢？因為CRC這個網站是可以供一般民眾查詢的，問題到底出在哪裡？我們之前已經問過。我們來看一下，這是衛福部給我們辦公室的回復，你們說各縣市光是公告的位置，在網站上就不一樣，有人放在裁罰專區，有人放在政府公告，有人放在地方政府的最新消息區，甚至教育部是放在全國課後照顧服務中心資訊網，有的還是實體公布欄。也就是說，你們認為你們沒有相關權限，可以要求地方政府在這些事情上統一做法，所以如果民眾要查詢相關資訊，他們必須到各縣市政府的網海中撈資料，但是卻撈不到。可是回到CRC，你們沒有規定他們要上傳到CRC，甚至是公告期間不一致，這也是非常嚴重的問題。公告後不下架，或者地方政府覺得這個個案的罪很輕，放個兩天就下架，或者到底要不要定期上架、下架，這件事情你們也沒有表示態度。","你們說了目前難以執行的原因，你們說只能定期以行政指導的方法，函請各地方政府通知內部裁罰單位要配合到CRC兒少法裁罰專區登錄案件，你們還說和教育部有關的，一旦涉及跨部會的問題，你們也不能管，可是我們發現這樣就會有非常多遺漏，所有無照經營的托嬰中心、虐待小孩的人，包括相關裁處的結果，大家都查不到啊！那麼後續到底該怎麼做？","你們告訴我們必須修兒少權法才能解決這個問題，請李次長回應一下，真的只能修法嗎？其實我們也研究過，相關子法、細則就可以解決這個問題。真的要等到兒少權法修法嗎？那麼請問兒少權法何時可以修得完？因為光是公告這件事情就有這麼大的落差。"],["李次長麗芬：因為依法公告是縣市政府要做的，所以他們可能就在……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，這些我們都很清楚。"],["李次長麗芬：他們可能就是由各業務單位公告，現在衛福部是希望檢討這個部分，看要怎麼建立查詢，然後做彙整，所以針對這個時間點，我們會再看可以怎麼精進。我們可能需要在法規中就要求地方政府要在哪個地方公告，這部分可能會涉及未來法規怎麼做相關規範。"],["陳委員培瑜：是否有機會在兒少權法沒有辦法大修的情況下，3個月內提出相關子法？本席剛才就說了，撇除剴剴這個個案，假設一般的媽媽想要找保母，想要知道這個保母過去有沒有虐兒事件，我們要到CRC查嗎？還是要找遍全臺灣22個縣市政府的網站，才能查到某某某到底有沒有發生虐兒事件？"],["李次長麗芬：這個部分我們會再把縣市政府找來討論，因為剛才同仁說縣市政府可能會抗議，但我覺得他們抗議的點，可能是在於同仁必須在不同地方登錄，等於是增加他們的工作，我們在……"],["陳委員培瑜：如果地方縣市政府執行上有困難，中央有沒有什麼方法可以協助地方政府？"],["李次長麗芬：所以我們會開會討論，如果是系統可以解決的問題，就不要讓地方的同仁同一件事做兩次。這個部分我們可以再把地方政府找來討論，也會看資訊網站這部分如何改善，讓地方的同仁做完這件事之後，中央也可以取得相關資料，這部分我們可以來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，有沒有機會在3個月內完成？我們要再一次強調，兒少權法真的不知道什麼時候修得完，我們也知道你們內部很認真在盤點兒少權法需要修的部分，可是如果要等到法修好，本席真的很害怕，在這3個月或是6個月內又發生什麼事情，就只是因為公告系統的漏接，導致這個事情沒辦法被看見。有沒有機會在3個月內做到？"],["李次長麗芬：好，我們3個月內會找地方政府討論，如果是資訊系統的改變，可能就需要一點時間，但我們會在3個月內把包括資訊等需要改進的方向先提出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：可不可以更積極一點？除了開會和把系統搞清楚之外，有沒有相關的行政細則、指導辦法可以給地方政府依循？"],["李次長麗芬：好，我們一併研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：包括相關子法的進度，好嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好的，謝謝李次長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：我們非常謝謝陳培瑜委員提出這個問題。依本席的見解，這應該無關修法，其實行政手段就可以儘快處理，因為中央資訊系統的資料，很多都是由地方上傳，應該是更改系統就可以了，謝謝。"],["李次長麗芬：是。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.94596875,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.345343750000001,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.79221875,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.95846875,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.97534375,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.017218750000005,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.05909375,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.61534375000001,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.66159375000001,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.71221875,"end":68.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.74596875,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.95659375000001,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":112.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.65471875,"end":132.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.62034375,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.55909375000002,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.61596875,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.65346875,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.37846875000002,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.63346875000002,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.45034375,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.20971875,"end":235.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.22659375,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.24346875,"end":233.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.69909375,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.71596875,"end":233.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.85096875000002,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.88471875000002,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.44346875000002,"end":255.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.18096875,"end":294.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.37721875,"end":346.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.68971875,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.49846875000003,"end":397.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.36534375,"end":400.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.91346875000005,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.30534375,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.90846875000005,"end":453.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.18784375,"end":471.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.15159375,"end":476.71596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.77971875000003,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.27721875000003,"end":499.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.41721875,"end":498.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.44659375000003,"end":521.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.64346875,"end":508.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.82909375,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.87971875000005,"end":508.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.46034375,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.7934687500001,"end":532.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.3359687500001,"end":539.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.91346875,"end":536.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.28846875,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.97596875,"end":542.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.95034375,"end":543.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.2709687500001,"end":545.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.0047187499999,"end":549.73409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.532,"end":4.773,"text":"主席"},{"start":13.646,"end":38.682,"text":"部長辛苦了我想我們就社安網快速跟部長討論喔就是這一次我想很多大家討論的焦點都在社工身上那我們認識非常多在第一線的社工朋友們或者是我們過往熟悉的老師朋友我覺得有件事情我想要跟部長比較積極的討論當然也許今天時間有限我們必須要後續在辦公室討論其實我相信部長您認不認同我以下要說的這段話"},{"start":39.002,"end":39.382,"text":"的確啦,這一個"},{"start":61.092,"end":62.233,"text":"加外安置跟照顧系統是不是需要全面檢討?"},{"start":79.107,"end":98.335,"text":"孩子如何離開家 進一步我們來想一想 在這照顧過程當中 尤其是像凱凱這樣的案例必須要來國家承擔這個照顧責任 失去原生家庭功能的這些小孩他們所需要的相關資源 包含教育包含醫療 整個社會安全網我們所想像的是社安網"},{"start":98.915,"end":99.596,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":112.654,"end":114.055,"text":"我們都希望趕快把社安網補上"},{"start":133.528,"end":160.05,"text":"那我們撇除掉凱凱的案例這確實是一個特例我覺得未來大家要想像的是更多更多的通案而這麼多沒有依靠的兒少他們的替代性照顧這到底是不是國家的責任是地方的責任是中央的責任還是整體地方跟中央必須要承擔的責任這個部分我也想要請部長有所表態因為如果我們不去想這件事情所有的政策我們都會覺得只是為了補這一次的破網"},{"start":161.912,"end":163.354,"text":"這其實就是國家的責任國家是包括地方跟中央的"},{"start":177.568,"end":180.15,"text":"我們很開心聽到部長您說是國家的責任我們在去年有一個質詢我們也跟部長討論到關於社安網的漏洞光是在電腦系統裡面我們就可以看出這個問題"},{"start":194.656,"end":223.186,"text":"部長我跟你分享在頁面的左邊這個綠色藍位的標頭這個是CRC根據CRC公告的中央的網站說相關違反兒少事件必須要公佈姓名的案例右邊是新竹縣也就是說在新竹縣的2022年1月到2024年1月我只是以新竹縣為例在這兩年之間的案例發生在新竹縣衛福部公告23筆可是地方政府公告了41筆"},{"start":225.91,"end":231.425,"text":"這應該是一樣的事情他只是登錄在兩個系統但是為什麼會有這麼大的數字上的落差"},{"start":237.257,"end":253.713,"text":"這部分是因為中央公告的網站跟地方公告的地方不一致那我剛剛有請同仁我們是不是針對那個怎麼樣子來更新怎麼樣子兩邊資料可以隨時聯動這個部分我們在系統上面我們來做進進來做改進"},{"start":255.496,"end":278.424,"text":"應該是說其實去年部長就去年12月部長就已經答應但是我相信部長你一定不知道發生了什麼事情我再跟部長分享其中一個案例我們隨便點進去一個畫面你就會發現每一個上傳到中央這個CRC系統的地方有地方政府他只有上傳一個桌面截圖你按進另外一個事件呢那個地方政府就很認真的把這個案由又寫出來但是有地方政府呢他要公告相關的公文"},{"start":279.204,"end":294.283,"text":"也就是說相關的兒少事件中央並沒有跟地方有一個好的默契到底我們要公告什麼樣的資料供一般民眾查詢因為基本上CRC這個網站是可以供一般民眾查詢那這個問題到底出在哪裡我們之前已經問過"},{"start":295.444,"end":314.249,"text":"那我們來看一下這個是衛福部給我們辦公室的回覆你們說這是你們說的你們說各縣市呢光是公告的位置在網站上不一樣有人放在財閥專區有人放在政府公告有人放在地方政府的最新消息區那甚至在教育部是放在全國課後照顧服務中心資訊網或者是還有實體公布欄"},{"start":316.59,"end":344.926,"text":"也就是說你們認為你們沒有相關權限可以要求地方政府在這些事情上統一所以如果民眾要查詢相關資訊的時候他們必須要自己到各個縣市政府去往海撈證相撈資料撈不出來可是回到CRC你們又沒有規定他們要上傳到CRC甚至公告期間不一致這也是非常嚴重的問題公告後不下架或者是地方政府覺得這個罪很輕我放兩天就下架還是到底要不要定期上架下架這件事情你們也沒有態度"},{"start":345.726,"end":358.116,"text":"好 那我們再來看你們告訴我們目前難以執行的原因你們說你們只能定期以行政指導的方法喊請各地方政府通知內部財閥單位要配合到CRC而造法財閥專區登錄案件你們還說跟教育部有關一旦有跨部會職責你們也不能管可是我們發現就有非常多的遺漏啊"},{"start":367.423,"end":381.13,"text":"那所有這些無照經營的脫穎中心虐待小孩的人相關的處罰採取的結果大家就查不到啊那查不到後續到底還能夠做什麼那你們告訴我們說你們必須要修兒少全法才能解決這個問題"},{"start":384.29,"end":397.415,"text":"請理事回應一下,真的只能修法嗎?我們其實研究過,相關的執法細則就可以解決這個問題,真的要等到兒少全法,那不然我們就問,兒少全法什麼時候可以修得完?光是公告這件事情就有這麼大的落差。"},{"start":398.642,"end":414.216,"text":"因為依這個的依法的規定公告是縣市政府要去公告是 這個我們都很清楚就在他們的各個業務單位他們去公告那現在我們衛福部西蘭西這個的部分是把大家公告的部分再看怎麼樣子"},{"start":415.297,"end":428.983,"text":"建立查詢然後再做彙整所以在這個時間點我們會再去看怎麼樣做經濟那我們可能需要在法規這部分就要求說地方政府的公告要在哪個地方公告可能會"},{"start":429.744,"end":436.106,"text":"那可不可以有機會在耳哨犬法沒有辦法大修的情況下在三個月內有相關的執法因為我剛剛說了撇除凱凱這個個案假設我是一個一般的媽媽我想要找保姆我想知道這個保姆過去有沒有虐兒的事件我去查CRC嗎還是我要去全台灣22個縣市政府的網站我才能查到某某某他到底有沒有虐兒的事件發生"},{"start":454.346,"end":468.663,"text":"我這個部分我們會找再把縣市政府找來因為我覺得剛剛同仁講說縣市政府可能有一些抗議那我覺得他抗議的點可能是在於說同仁他必須在不同的地方登錄是增加他們工作上的一個"},{"start":469.584,"end":469.624,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":499.524,"end":499.884,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":520.657,"end":520.957,"text":"陳培瑜委員提出這個問題"}]}},{"id":"150042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a129b8d774504bb1f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6c78416d463be3f225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"15:20:11 - 15:29:28","影片長度":"00:09:17","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":557,"end_time":"2024-03-18T15:29:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T15:20:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1913,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（15時20分）請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["李委員彥秀：部長辛苦了，上個星期三退輔會副主委李文忠說過去八年來民進黨最大的問題是不斷在重複錯誤，出狀況的時候都太忙於解釋問題而不是解決問題，對於內部錯誤的事情事後也不究責；同一天賴清德出席活動的時候致詞也談到政府的存在不是解釋問題而是解決問題。賴清德的說法你同不同意？政府的存在是解決問題，而不是解釋問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，但是了解問題是解決問題的第一步。"],["李委員彥秀：對，要解決問題才是民眾要的嘛，到今天為止我希望我看到的都是在解決問題，而不是推卸責任。請問部長，這個案子從12月發生，兩個多月之後這事情爆開來，一開始你們對外的說法都是說案子已經進入司法程序，所以才沒有針對剴剴這個案子召開專案會議，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這其實是地方跟中央的錯誤認知。"],["李委員彥秀：你對外的說法是這樣嘛，這個案子因為已經進入司法程序，你才會沒有召開會議，但是我要提醒，上個禮拜3月15號，你們去召開專案會議、去做檢討討論，難道整個檢調司法程序已經終結，整個客觀程序已經結束……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我跟委員報告，我從來沒有說一定要等到司法……"],["李委員彥秀：那為什麼這個案子，這麼重大的社會案件居然一個會議都沒有召開，事後也沒有任何究責，不管檢調調查的內容是什麼，責任在中央，哪些應該中央來負責？哪些應該地方來負責？兩個多月過去了完全沒有討論，難道從中央到地方沒有一個人需要負責嗎？保護司沒有問題嗎？社家署不用去檢討嗎？這是現在外界看到剴剴這個案子，很多的臺灣民眾不能夠接受的地方，這是第一點；第二，部長，我還是要提，你們對整件事件回應的報告裡面提到兒童專責醫師的制度，兒科專責醫師的收案方式其實分為兩種，一種是自行收案，另外一個是指定收案，自行收案我想不用多說，反正小孩子去看醫生就讓你當成家庭醫師，大概就都有一個這樣的制度，醫師如果看到有什麼樣的異狀會通知社政單位直接進入處理；另外指定收案的部分是去年我們發布的，現行的兒科專責醫師的計畫，收案是由衛生局直接指派給專責醫師嗎？現行？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果名單到了衛生局，衛生局就會幫這些小孩子去找指定的醫師。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長你知道原來兒科專責醫師計畫的原來雛型、原來構想是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：原來構想本來就是希望兒科醫師從基層開始來處理，當然因為這一個人數的部分可能……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我請問你，我如果是一個會兒虐的媽媽，會主動常常讓醫生看到孩子嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以如果他定期應該要來打疫苗，或者是定期的健康檢查，他沒有來，我們進一步繼續聯絡而還是拒絕的話就要通報。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這是衛政跟社政單位未來聯繫的方式，我今天要跟你探討兒科專責醫師的計畫，其實我們去年發布的原型是以照顧高風險的個案為主，比如極端早產、先天性的重大疾病，我們希望有一個把這些孩子納入制度、納入醫療的體系網絡去做照顧，我覺得李麗芬次長那一天在記者會上說的，就是兒虐個案未來要通報，其實潛在收案的來源是在這一群裡面，但如果是高風險兒虐的家庭，家長不會主動出現嘛！這是現在最大的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以現在這類高風險的個案，指定他的幼兒專責醫師時不需要經過家長同意。"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼找到這些人呢？怎麼找到這些孩子呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以現在社政單位……"],["李委員彥秀：你們現在把零到三歲的部分交由衛生局指定，可見過去這一塊是漏洞嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以……"],["李委員彥秀：你也承認這是漏洞嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：今天的問題是新北市、臺北市都沒有去做這件事情。"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼找到這些孩子？新北市和臺北市……"],["薛部長瑞元：他們手上已經有名單。"],["李委員彥秀：名單是在中央政府手上。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是的，地方政府就有這份名單。"],["李委員彥秀：地方怎麼會有這些名單？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然啊……"],["李委員彥秀：到底有多少孩子在社會安全網之外沒有被發現？部長，臺灣平均每年有一萬多個孩子……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有被發現是另外一回事，現在已經被發現的，地方的社會局就有這些脆弱家庭的名單，怎麼會沒有？"],["李委員彥秀：好，最後這些脆弱家庭的名單……但是選擇專責醫生這個制度，你們和醫界溝通過嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有的。一開始執行的時候，包括社會局、衛生局，我們都有找來溝通過。"],["李委員彥秀：你確定嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：從這兩天醫界的態度來看，你們有沒有和他們溝通過？因為之後還有一個訪視制度，醫生自己一個人去個案家中敲門，如果沒有警政單位、社政單位的配合，這個制度怎麼形成的？所以部長……"],["薛部長瑞元：醫生不一定要去執行家訪，他是聯絡家長，請家長把小孩帶過來給他看。"],["李委員彥秀：如果他們不來呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：不來就通知社政單位啦！因為他拒絕了，一定是有問題。"],["李委員彥秀：所以醫生主動通知，但他們不來，醫生還要另外花時間通知其他人。部長，本席覺得在執行面，我們不要只推卸責任，你們現在是找新北市、臺北市來開會……"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是推卸責任，制度本來就是這樣設計的。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有關係。本席覺得一個政策、制度要做好，中央和地方必須合作，當然，你們做計畫很簡單，只要指定下去由誰做就好……"],["薛部長瑞元：哪有很簡單，當然不是很簡單啊！"],["李委員彥秀：但是他們執行的可行性如何？有沒有窒礙難行的地方？本席覺得你們完全沒有去思考。"],["薛部長瑞元：在設計這個制度的時候，其實就有和相關的兒科醫師討論過，怎麼會沒有思考呢？"],["李委員彥秀：部長，對於醫界的反彈，本席覺得你們必須去做更多……"],["薛部長瑞元：那是少數啦！其實兒科醫學會非常贊成。"],["李委員彥秀：現在大家對執行面還有很多問號，因為從記者會的新聞稿或對外說明，大家還是不知道會怎麼進行，但是如果用現行方式去處理的話，恐怕大家會有更多疑問。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在效益已經有百分之四十幾了，不會……"],["李委員彥秀：現在是小孩看了醫生之後，如果醫生發現有異狀，要由醫生主動通知社政單位、警政單位，這部分沒有問題，但如果要醫師主動家訪，他們在能力、時間等各方面有沒有問題？本席覺得這是一個很大的問號。特別是現在兒科醫師人力越來越少的狀況之下，本席覺得這些都需要考量，不要讓醫界本來願意配合兒科的專責制度，結果因為你們不清不楚的說明，讓很多人退出這樣的制度。","本席覺得你要思考清楚，不要讓制度執行之後，才發現這邊漏了一個洞，那邊也漏了一個洞。我們今天檢討制度就是希望把每個洞都補起來，沒有和社政單位、醫界溝通的結果，最後還是會有很多漏洞，這一點本席要提醒你。"],["薛部長瑞元：好的。"],["李委員彥秀：剛才林淑芬委員提醒你的意思也是一樣，社會安全網，我們已經做了6年，但是洞卻越補越大，這不是你們應該檢討的地方嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們會再去做檢討，也會加強這方面執行的宣導。"],["李委員彥秀：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.607843750000001,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.00346875,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.73346875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.58471875,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.66909375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.68596875,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.38159375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.70034375,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":66.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.09221875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.20846875000001,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.45659375000001,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.07034375,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.14159375000001,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.32284375,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.31346875000001,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.93284375,"end":115.00034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.00034375000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.75659375,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.71721875,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.08409375000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.99846875,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.43284375000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.66784375,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.73221875000002,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.57596875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.51971875,"end":201.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.99096875,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.21034375000002,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.78096875000003,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.43471875,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.76284375,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.39409375000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.23721875,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.03846875000002,"end":251.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.79346875000002,"end":285.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.47909375,"end":265.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.72034375000004,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.97284375000004,"end":294.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.06971875,"end":292.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.58846875,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.04221875,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.12659375000004,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.33721875000003,"end":311.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.57346875,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.08784375000005,"end":313.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.83034375,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.54659375,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.81659375000004,"end":319.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.62659375000004,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.87971875,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.48284375000003,"end":326.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.28346875,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":339.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.35346875000005,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.83409375,"end":345.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.68909375000004,"end":360.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.07159375000003,"end":363.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.42159375,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.96846875,"end":378.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.94221875000005,"end":385.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.14784375000005,"end":395.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.34971875,"end":390.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.12096875000003,"end":399.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.43721875,"end":400.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.44096875,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.89596875,"end":411.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.68471875,"end":406.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.75221875000005,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.93284375,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.02534375000005,"end":414.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.34159375,"end":438.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.99846875000003,"end":427.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.89971875000003,"end":435.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.13096875,"end":444.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.25659375000004,"end":455.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.53846875000005,"end":452.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.70284375000006,"end":452.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.83784375000005,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.38159375000004,"end":459.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.18284375,"end":463.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.23346875000004,"end":460.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.49846875000003,"end":491.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.08221875000004,"end":485.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.10159375,"end":498.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.88971875000004,"end":504.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.93096875000003,"end":530.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.7790937500001,"end":538.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.7822187500001,"end":539.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.0859687500001,"end":542.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.81534375,"end":546.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.4265937499999,"end":552.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.6965937500001,"end":548.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.03721875,"end":556.70346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":6.163,"text":"請說部長好 請部長"},{"start":14.022,"end":37.924,"text":"好 部長辛苦了上個星期三退府會的副主委李文忠說過去8年來民進黨最大的問題不斷在重複錯誤出狀況的時候都太忙於解釋問題而不是解決問題對於內部錯誤的事情事後也不究責同一天賴清德出席活動的時候致詞也談到說政府的存在不是解釋問題而是解決問題"},{"start":40.925,"end":45.77,"text":"賴清德的說法你同不同意政府的存在是解決問題而不是解釋問題當然但是了解問題是解決問題的第一步"},{"start":51.688,"end":76.596,"text":"對 要解決問題才是民眾要的嘛到今天為止我希望我看到的都是在解決問題而不是推卸責任喔好 部長 我要請問你齁這個案子從12月發生之後兩個多月之後這個事情爆開來一開始你們對外的說法都是說這個案子已經進入司法程序所以你們才沒有召開針對於凱凱這個案子沒有召開專案會議 對不對"},{"start":80.507,"end":92.595,"text":"這個其實是地方跟中央的錯誤認知啦你對外的說法是這樣嗎這個案子因為已經進入司法程序你才沒有召開會議但是我就要提醒啊上個禮拜3月15號你們去召開專案會議去做檢討討論"},{"start":99.259,"end":103.323,"text":"難道整個檢調司法程序已經終結?整個客觀程序?所以我跟委員報告我從來沒有說一定要等到司法程序結束那為什麼這個案子這麼重大的社會案件居然一個會議都沒有召開來事後也沒有任何救責不管檢調在調查的內容是什麼"},{"start":120.973,"end":121.233,"text":"這是第一點第二"},{"start":146.127,"end":162.903,"text":"部長我還是要提整件事情看到你們的回應報告裡面提到兒童專責醫師的制度那兒科專責醫師的收案方式其實分為兩種一種是自行收案另外一個是指定收案"},{"start":164.224,"end":165.124,"text":"現行的兒科專責醫師的計畫收案是由衛生局直接指派給專責醫師嗎?現行?"},{"start":193.564,"end":206.135,"text":"那個如果說這個名單到了衛生局的話衛生局就會幫這些小孩子去找指定的醫師好那部長你知道我們原來兒科專責醫師我們計畫的原來的雛形原來的構想是什麼"},{"start":211.257,"end":240.376,"text":"原來的構想本來就是我們希望說說兒科醫師從基層開始來處理那當然因為這個人數的部分的話部長我請問你我如果是一個會兒孽的媽媽我會主動把我孩子常常讓醫生看到嗎所以如果說他定期應該要來這個打疫苗或者是說這個定期的這個健康檢查的時候他沒有來"},{"start":241.619,"end":244.451,"text":"我們要再進一步聯絡,他還是拒絕的話"},{"start":245.219,"end":270.385,"text":"那這個就要通報部長這是衛政跟社政單位未來的聯繫的方式部長我今天要跟你探討兒科的專責醫師的計畫原型其實我們本來去年發布的原型是以照顧高風險的個案為主就是以原來比如說極端早產先天性的重大疾病我們希望有一個我們把這些孩子納入這些制度醫療的體系網路去做照顧"},{"start":271.525,"end":274.626,"text":"我覺得李立芬次長那一天在記者會上說的就是說兒女個案未來要通報我們再往前看前面那個圖其實潛在收案的來源是在這一群裡面但是如果"},{"start":286.772,"end":304.271,"text":"高風險而虐的家庭家長不會主動出現嗎?這個是我們現在最大的問題嗎?所以現在我們就是說這一類高風險的這些個案那要去派他的這個指定他的幼兒專責醫師的時候不需要經過家長同意"},{"start":306.172,"end":326.706,"text":"那怎麼找到這些人呢?怎麼找到這些孩子呢?你現在把0到3歲指定給衛生局來指定可見過去其實這一塊是漏洞嘛你也承認它是漏洞嘛 對不對今天的問題就是說新北台北兩個都沒有去做這件事情"},{"start":328.325,"end":338.435,"text":"怎麼去找到這些孩子?新北跟台…他已經手上已經有這個名單了啊你名單是在你中央手上了欸沒有沒有,這地方就有這個名單地方怎麼會有這些名單?到底…到底外界到底有多少孩子在社會安全網之外"},{"start":346.343,"end":360.577,"text":"沒有被發現：部長平均每年台灣有一萬多個孩子沒有被發現是另外一回事現在已經有被發現的名單就是地方的社會舉救這些脆弱家庭的名單怎麼會沒有"},{"start":362.499,"end":363.6,"text":"有,這一開始執行的時候,包括社會局,包括衛生局,我們都有找來,都有溝通過。對。"},{"start":386.972,"end":402.7,"text":"你後面還有一個訪視制度醫生一個人去人家家裡敲著門他沒有警政單位的配合他沒有社政單位的配合這個制度怎麼形成醫生不一定要去執行家訪是要聯絡那個小孩子要帶過來給他看他如果不來呢?就通知這個社政單位啦他拒絕啦他主動通知他不來"},{"start":415.59,"end":437.163,"text":"醫生還要在另外花一個工我覺得部長這個執行面上齁我們不要只推卸責任你現在變成說你找新北台北兩個來開會我覺得一個政策制度要做得好中央地方必須要合作當然你們做計畫很簡單你指定下去你要誰做就誰做但是他們在執行面上可行性怎麼樣有沒有自愛難行的地方我覺得你完全沒有去思考"},{"start":446.594,"end":463.761,"text":"這個在設計這個制度的時候其實就有跟這些相關的兒科醫學會他們已經有討論過怎麼會沒有思考呢一切的反彈一切的反彈喔我覺得你必須要去做更多其實兒科醫學會是非常贊成的啦"},{"start":464.751,"end":464.951,"text":"主動的加訪"},{"start":493.131,"end":521.004,"text":"他們的能力就是說他們主動性上有沒有這個時間各方面有沒有這個時間有沒有這個能力我覺得是很大的問號特別現在我們在兒科醫師的現在人力也越來越少的狀況之下我覺得這個都是要去做考量不要讓很多的醫界本來願意在這個兒科的專責制度裡面因為你現在不清楚的說明之後很多人退出這樣的一個制度我覺得你要思考清楚"},{"start":521.664,"end":530.022,"text":"你不要一個制度執行下去後面才發現這邊又漏了一個洞那邊又漏了一個洞我們今天檢討制度是要把每一個洞補起來"},{"start":531.809,"end":532.449,"text":"李彥秀委員"}]}},{"id":"150041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5067a51c101e461825cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a6b46b472f9b5d055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"14:56:51 - 15:14:48","影片長度":"00:17:57","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1077,"end_time":"2024-03-18T15:14:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T14:56:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1858,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（14時56分）主席、各位大家好。是不是還是先就教於我們薛部長？"],["主席：薛部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天大家討論了很多，其實你們的報告裡面也承認，這個不是社會安全網漏接，沒有漏接的問題，而是社會安全網本身破洞、不安全，這個是社會安全網不安全的問題，它也是相當嚴重的問題。我們都以為只要進入安全網，進入這個安全體系，我們將其接起來了就好了，沒想到接起來了，網破洞讓他摔死了。所以就這個部分我們是覺得，非要一條人命才讓我們看見這個安全網是有破洞的，這個代價太慘痛！今天在這裡我們也發現，大家在檢討收出養媒合機構的社工的問題、對於社工的檢討，比如說在相關機制方面，大家都會強調要增加訪視的頻率，除此以外，還有提升對訪視案件的敏感度，大家都有提到敏感度，可是大家也都知道說什麼是敏感度，敏感度要怎麼提升，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這一個部分其實有二個重點，第一個重點就是要多重的去做訪視，所以所謂的訪視頻率並不是單一的社工本來1個月去一次變成1個月去兩次，這不是主要重點，重點是負責的這些單位要怎麼樣去double check，對於這種有惡意的，若沒有靠這樣子的……"],["林委員淑芬：社工的總量是固定的，你多做一個double check，就是排擠了另外一個訪視的時間，畢竟社工的時間也是固定的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以所謂增加訪視率這一個部分，要去做double check的話，對象必須要明確。"],["林委員淑芬：你今天一直講double check，我剛剛也說，總量、人數是固定的，工時也是固定的，他的案件數其實是很多的，你這樣子是會有排擠的……"],["薛部長瑞元：如果有需要，就要增加總量。"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講，因為我們找過專業的，像是彭婉如文教基金會，他們負責保母和社區托育主管人員等情事，他們其實也一直反映了幾件事情，第一個，訪視的次數固然是可以增加，你要double check也沒有關係，但是如果訪視的品質沒有提升，只是讓訪視人員疲於奔命、增加工作時間、增加次數、double再check，觀察的時間會不會相對減少？重點也不是你去幾次、有沒有double check，時間以外還有品質，大家都知道品質，而訪視品質的高低在於如何察覺風險、預見風險，我問你這個問題就是第二個，如何增加訪視員的敏感度？"],["薛部長瑞元：這一個部分當然第一個要透過教育訓練，第二個就必須用一個比較系統化的做法。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我們社工的教育訓練本來都是專業的，理論上大家都有專業，理論上是這樣沒錯，但是你看你們社家署提供的「居家托育服務中心訪視輔導工作指引」，你自己去看你們的指引內容，訪視前、訪視中、訪視後，訪視中你叫人家到現場時要表明身分、要表明訪視的目的、要熱忱、要積極、要真誠，訪視的時候口齒要清晰不疾不徐，訪視的時候要跟保母、居家服務員建立信任關係，稱呼要適當，不能叫阿姨，要叫大姐，這叫適當嗎？由一般性的社會會談進入主題性的會談要以受訪者、托育對象為中心，然後要尊重接納同理受訪者、要同理保母，透過生活化的舉例提出專業知識的建議。我的意思是說，看你們的指引照樣做這樣就可以增加敏感度嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這只是其中的一部分，因為你這邊所提的是對於接受訪視的成人，也就是保母，但是沒有提到小孩子，你要去看小孩子，這才是重點。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，這本來就應該要看的，但是保母也很重要，我現在在跟你講，我是在回饋你，這個是我剛剛所講的第一線主管人員所反映的，訪視的品質高低要察覺風險；那他的敏感度其實是要擴大訪視面向的廣度，還有透過提問探詢日常托育細節流程確認，還有保母的說辭是否為真，如果組織或訪員敷衍了事，只能看到表面和客觀事實，你說第一次去看小孩，你把孩子脫光光來看。我跟你講這一個個案剴剴他有沒有去看醫生？沒有規定他要健康檢查，但他有去啊！他看了牙醫耶，他不是沒有看耶，難道牙醫就沒有敏感度嗎？牙醫檢查他牙齒，然後還可以說這四顆牙齒的脫落可能是因為磨牙。牙醫師回報提供的意見可能是磨牙嚴重、可能受過刺激、不平等待遇或癲癇，OK，他也有回應，有看過醫師並不是沒有。所以我的意思是，我在講的是第一線的人的回饋，彭婉如基金會的主管們一直希望社家署要創造定期的、跨單位的不同居家托育服務中心承辦單位及跨縣市的經驗交流機會，要擴大分享的風險資料庫。因為一個社工員幾個個案，尤其是他看了這個個案，加上自身經驗，加上學習時間的長短不一，你提升所有第一線的從業人員的風險辨識敏感度，從這些不同的個案大家共同分享，建立一個風險資料庫。結果他們檢討的結果是每次社家署去舉辦的會議都流於形式，都不是第一線工作的社工員去發言回饋，都交給不在第一線的專家學者發言。所以你們製作出來的手冊沒有跟上實務需求，如果個別的居托中心承辦的單位組織內，如果社家署是這樣子讓學者專家發言而沒有第一線的共享風險資料庫，承辦單位的內部比如兒福聯盟，他們內部有沒有督導會議？他們有沒有定期的社工檢討會議？如果沒有，又不常讓訪員間交流分享，沒有發揮監督職責，他們整個督導沒有發揮監督的職責，機構內也沒有共同分享的風險資料庫的教育等等，這樣訪視的品質一定很差。所以我們要求社家署一定要擴大各居托中心經驗交流，不要讓各居家托育中心的工作經驗停留在個人、個別中心或單一縣市，我覺得這個回饋的意見非常好啊。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，我們可以這樣來進行。"],["林委員淑芬：對，因為第一線去訪視，就是收集資料作為風險辨識的依據。但敏感度是關鍵啊，如果沒有敏感度，怎麼收集很多資料？如果不會問也沒辦法收集很多資料，所以敏感度是相當、相當要緊的。但是我也要跟部長分享某個居家托育服務中心其他督導的心得，在社家署社區發展季刊的文章有一篇叫：建構安全居家托育服務，安全居家托育服務的建構，如何做到風險辨識，文中有提到幾個點，第一，確保足夠的資訊量以供精準判斷；第二，他們有發現提問資料的豐厚度、提高訊息來源和察覺風險，也要電訪，這兩者對新收托案例行性的電訪也要做，他們又發現有一點是什麼，你知道嗎？這個中心督導透過多年運作的經驗發現有時候真相要收托結束之後才會發現，為什麼？因為家長跟保母之間要維持合作關係，有求於保母所以有時候不敢講真話，家長不一定會馬上全盤托出，跟中心說保母有什麼問題，不會馬上就反映，但是等到收托結束、合作關係結束他可能會講。所以這個小孩子的托育過程結束了，可是保母繼續要帶其他小孩啊，他存在具有風險的照顧行為不會因為這個個案結束而消失，還會延續到下一個收托的兒童，但是這個風險及真相沒有被揭露。所以他就說，在收托關係結束的時候，受理保母的居托通報以外，也要求必須要終托電訪當事家長，透過核對家長跟保母回報的結束托育日期是否一致，更重要的是要藉此了解家長對於整體送托經驗的感受，如果查到風險訊息，中心便可以處理托育人員不適當、有風險的照顧行為，所以終托電訪很重要，這個督導怎麼分享終托電訪的內容，他說我們剛開始給家長打停托電話，家長就想說既然中心來問了，而且已經終止收托了，我就講吧。他講了兩點：第一，保母會大聲罵小孩，第二，保爸會拿膠帶貼小孩的嘴巴，還跟家長炫耀。這個是媽媽在收托結束以後才告訴他們的。所以你說定期的有意義、有目的的電訪很重要，但是從收托結束的終托電訪也很重要，這些都是一種機制，但是必須要有敏感性，而且你們有規定要終托電訪嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，對。所以人家做得好的還有終托電訪，我小孩還在你手頭上，還要拜託你顧，我不敢說，終止托育、托育結束以後才會發現真相，這個就是我們在這裡告訴你的。我今天還有一點要請教部長，講這麼久我還是有點不了解，付費給剴剴保母的是誰，誰付費的？他的保母費是誰付的？"],["薛部長瑞元：按照機制來講，應該是兒福聯盟付給他的。"],["林委員淑芬：兒福聯盟沒有拿到補助，為什麼會願意幫這個小孩付錢？會不會有道德風險？如果他沒有被人家收養仍要幫這個小孩付錢，那時間越拖越長要幫他付的錢越多，所以就越找品質越差、越便宜。"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是我在我們檢討報告的內容提到……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，這個機制運作了這麼多年，怎麼會這個樣子呢？他有沒有政府的補助進去，完全都沒有嗎？這麼多年都沒有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前對……說實話沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：我也百思不得其解，兒盟將剴剴交付給這個保母的時候，為什麼是由他的外婆跟保母簽約？可是付錢的是兒福聯盟，這個對價關係不太對啊。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這一個部分就是我們在檢討報告裡面提到未來要去改的機制，我們就希望它走的是委託安置的流程，然後就不是……"],["林委員淑芬：請問媒合機構怎麼會有這麼多錢可以幫忙安置這麼多小孩，你不會覺得疑問嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，但最後如果媒合成功的話是有收費，是對收養者收費。"],["林委員淑芬：好，收費標準是怎麼樣？以兒福聯盟為例，現在收費標準是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：大概十萬元。"],["林委員淑芬：第一個階段只要去申請就要繳費兩萬元，所以要收養小孩也要花很多錢的，不是說免費的。第二階段進行收養評估審查要兩萬五，第三和第四階段要收多少？第三階段收養五萬五，但我知道外國人收養要繳兩次的美金四千元，所以給外國人收養可以收到美金八千元。臺灣人收養成功要繳十萬元，外國人要收養臺灣小孩要繳八千塊美金，所以靠這個收入來cover那個支出。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：顯然支出的時間要越短越好，所以難以做到最好的評估，所以你們才說這個有道德風險，因為出養是一個評估，要經過專業的評估才能出養。如果照這種道理，我要付出養這些小孩的錢，我要保證他出養，如果沒有保證他出養，養這些小孩的錢都要倒貼，怎麼世間有這種事情？怎麼有媒合機構要做這種事情？要保證每個小孩都要出養，不管他是不是需要出養，不管專業評估出養對小孩是不是最好的，都勢必要讓他出養，是這樣子？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們這次要改的就是這個部分。"],["林委員淑芬：可是運作了這麼多年，付出了人命以後，這麼荒謬的事情我們現在才知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個已經有討論過，其實在兒權法修法的時候也有討論過。"],["林委員淑芬：就媒合機構而言出養越多收入越多，當然為了節省成本，還沒有媒合成功、還沒有出養出去的，當然是要找成本比較低的，所以才找這種很惡質的保母，便宜就好，現在帶整天小孩是要付多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多兩萬五。"],["林委員淑芬：到底是收多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：好像是兩萬六。"],["林委員淑芬：兩萬六顧24小時，顧好幾個月這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：然後兒福聯盟也不能太挑剔，因為錢是要自己付，所以他找品質好的可能要付更高更多的錢，有這種風險？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有這個風險，因為他原來的保母一個月是三萬元。"],["林委員淑芬：一開始設計這種制度就是一個大錯誤，這社會安全網不安全，這不是社會安全網，這一開始就是一個社會漏洞網，真的是……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們發現問題，就是把它糾正過來。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，可是我們執政八年了，你現在還跟我講現在發現問題就把它糾正過來，我是覺得蠻遺憾的，因為這個在道德上風險太大了，這在運作上也是會讓整個保母的服務是尋求最便宜的，當然風險就更大，尋求最便宜的風險更大，然後在專業出養的評估上，也勢必一定要評估出出養，不然媒合機構就賠錢了，如果是外國人來收養更好，因為可以收八千塊錢美金，臺灣人收養的話才收十萬元，每一個收養小孩的人必須第一階段就要收兩萬，第二階段收兩萬五，分階段就要繳費，若不成功就收不到那麼多錢，所以都要保證成功。這樣子真的是把要出養的兒童小孩送入深淵裡面，聽起來整個制度不是一個社會安全網，反而是把小孩推入深淵、深坑裡面。真的啦，這種道德性的風險太大、瑕疵太大了，令人相當遺憾，你說這次全都要改了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你這次都要改了？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好吧，我們就看一下你拿出來的方案是什麼。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢，休息5分鐘。","休息（15時14分）","繼續開會（15時19分）"],["主席：大家請回座，我們繼續開會。","接下來請李彥秀委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.40159375,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.606593750000002,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.809093750000002,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.126593750000005,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.64596875000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.30409375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.74284375,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.55221875000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.11596875000001,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.81159375,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.95409375000001,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.26159375,"end":126.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.25221875000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.66971875,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.57659375000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.93409375000002,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.22409375,"end":195.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.30846875,"end":195.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.06784375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.87659375,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.08221875,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.82471875000005,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.66721875,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.01721875000004,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.75034375,"end":292.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.14659375,"end":286.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.93534375,"end":291.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.82909375,"end":324.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.24596875000003,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.66471875,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.07784375,"end":353.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.53659375,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.00221875000005,"end":437.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.05534375,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.42721875,"end":479.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.10784375000003,"end":482.65596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.95971875000004,"end":484.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.96346875,"end":487.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.48221875,"end":488.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.39346875,"end":514.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.97159375,"end":533.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.63096875,"end":545.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.3928437500001,"end":552.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.53534375,"end":557.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.74971875,"end":564.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.3984687500001,"end":572.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.1059687500001,"end":580.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.0203437499999,"end":586.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.7409687500001,"end":601.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.3503437500001,"end":620.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.3515937500001,"end":642.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.5972187500001,"end":649.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.39346875,"end":660.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.94034375,"end":662.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.31971875,"end":669.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.96846875,"end":674.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.67221875,"end":685.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.8984687500001,"end":692.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.9309687500001,"end":694.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.99409375,"end":698.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.75284375,"end":704.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.2209687500001,"end":701.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.3047187500001,"end":710.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.83971875,"end":716.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.18909375,"end":723.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.04846875,"end":726.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.06096875,"end":730.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.43159375,"end":735.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.2240937500001,"end":746.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.26034375,"end":750.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.4665937500001,"end":759.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.83221875,"end":762.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.92034375,"end":773.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.96909375,"end":778.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.5209687500001,"end":779.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.01034375,"end":785.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.40596875,"end":793.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.25721875,"end":798.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.6359687500001,"end":810.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.1240937500002,"end":813.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.08971875,"end":814.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.8740937500002,"end":821.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.7253437500001,"end":825.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.99471875,"end":828.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.3528437500001,"end":830.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.24284375,"end":840.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.09784375,"end":844.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.6753437500001,"end":851.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.5222187500001,"end":855.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.0703437500001,"end":855.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":855.72846875,"end":858.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.18784375,"end":864.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.53721875,"end":870.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.5615937500002,"end":878.4422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.7122187500001,"end":880.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":880.70346875,"end":880.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.9734687500002,"end":884.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.2178437500002,"end":884.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.6184687500001,"end":890.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":890.54159375,"end":895.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.7053437500001,"end":897.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.28284375,"end":899.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.1940937500001,"end":902.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.84346875,"end":907.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.8047187500001,"end":915.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.8672187500001,"end":915.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.60909375,"end":919.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.06846875,"end":925.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.7934687500001,"end":937.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.43721875,"end":940.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":939.8334687500001,"end":941.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.35221875,"end":944.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":944.2547187500002,"end":945.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.00971875,"end":948.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":948.5578437500001,"end":948.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.36784375,"end":951.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":951.62909375,"end":952.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":953.45159375,"end":954.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":955.15596875,"end":960.1509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":960.5728437500002,"end":961.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":961.6865937500002,"end":962.8172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":963.57659375,"end":966.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":968.3859687500001,"end":977.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":979.0847187500001,"end":983.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.08409375,"end":988.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":988.87221875,"end":991.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.70284375,"end":1000.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1002.67596875,"end":1005.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1005.9834687500002,"end":1007.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1008.53159375,"end":1020.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1021.4240937500001,"end":1038.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1039.4803437500002,"end":1044.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1044.5090937500001,"end":1058.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1059.1397187500002,"end":1066.7503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1067.7290937500002,"end":1069.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1069.4165937500002,"end":1069.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1070.3784687500001,"end":1073.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1074.3272187500002,"end":1074.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1075.6265937500002,"end":1077.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.777,"end":10.767,"text":"主席 各位大家好是不是還是先就教育我們這個薛部長薛部長請"},{"start":14.932,"end":34.25,"text":"委員好部長今天大家討論了很多其實這個裡面你們的報告裡面也承認這個不是社會安全網漏接沒有漏接的問題是社會安全網本身破動不安全這個是社會安全網不安全的問題"},{"start":36.172,"end":56.317,"text":"他也是相當嚴重的問題我們都以為只要安全網進入這個安全體系我們接起來就好了沒想到接起來那個網破洞讓他摔死了所以在這裡我們覺得在這個部分非要一條人命才讓我們看見這個安全網是有破洞的這個代價太慘痛那所以今天在這裡呢我們也發現說大家在檢討這個說出養媒合機構的社工的問題"},{"start":64.019,"end":86.359,"text":"那收出養媒和機構大家對於社工的檢討大概比如說在這個機制方面大家都會強調說這個要增加這個訪視的頻率啦還有這個提高訪視頻率以外提升對訪視案件的敏感度大家都有提到敏感度可是大家也都知道說什麼是敏感度敏感度要怎麼提升"},{"start":89.338,"end":113.395,"text":"這一個部分的話其實有兩個重點第一個重點就是要多重的去做這個訪視所謂的訪視頻率並不是單一的社工要本來一個月去一次變成一個月去兩次這不是主要重點重點是說那你負責的這些單位的話要怎麼樣去double check"},{"start":114.239,"end":133.953,"text":"對於這種有惡意的你沒有靠這樣子的社工的總量是固定的那你多做一個double check那就是排擠了另外一個房市的時間他的社工的時間也是固定的所以這一個所謂的增加房市的這一個部分的話要去做double check的對象的話必須要明確"},{"start":137.355,"end":158.286,"text":"總量人數是固定的,公時也是固定的,那他的案件數其實是很多的,你這樣是排擠那我跟你講,因為我們找過專業的,像是彭婉如文教基金會,他們負責保姆和社區托育的主管人員請示,他們其實一直也反映了幾件事情,第一個"},{"start":158.946,"end":173.774,"text":"反噬的次數固然是可以增加好了你要double check也沒有關係但是如果反噬的品質沒有提升只是讓反噬人員這樣子大家疲於奔命增加工作時間增加次數double再check觀察的時間"},{"start":174.915,"end":177.157,"text":"這一個部分的話當然第一個要透過教育信任第二個的話我們必須用一個比較系統化的一個做法"},{"start":206.239,"end":223.125,"text":"我們的社工的教育訓練這本來都是專業的這大家都理論上都有專業啊但是呢理論上是這樣沒錯但是你看你們社家屬提供的這個居家特育服務中心訪事輔導工作指引你看你們的指引的內容"},{"start":224.345,"end":249.874,"text":"訪試前、訪試中、訪試後訪試中你叫人家到現場說你告訴人家表明身份、表明這次訪試的目的要熱誠、要積極、要真誠訪試的時候口齒要清晰、不疾不徐訪試的時候要跟保姆、居家服務員要信任關係稱呼要適當不能叫他阿姨,要叫大姊這叫適當嗎?由一般性的社會會談進入主題性的會談"},{"start":251.355,"end":275.956,"text":"然後要跟受訪者推立對象為中心然後要尊重、接納、同理受訪者這個保姆要同理他透過生活化的舉例提出專業的知識的建議我的意思是說看你們的指引這樣就可以增加敏感度嗎沒有這一個部分的話只是一部分因為你這邊所寫的是對於這一個接受訪視的這些成人也就是保姆但是"},{"start":277.065,"end":280.966,"text":"沒有提到小孩子,你要去看小孩子這才是重點對啦,這本來就應該要看,但是保姆也很重要我現在再回饋你這個是我剛剛講的第一線的主管人員他們反映的,訪視的品質高低,要察覺風險"},{"start":299.611,"end":319.055,"text":"那他的敏感度其實要擴大訪視面向的廣度：還有透過提問探尋日常托育細節：流程確認：還有保姆的說辭是否為真：如果組織或訪員敷衍了事只能看到表面和客觀事實你說小孩第一次去看你還要再看我跟你講這一個凱凱的個案他有沒有去看醫生沒有規定要健康檢查但他有去阿"},{"start":325.296,"end":344.381,"text":"他看了牙醫欸,他不是沒有看欸難道牙醫就沒有敏感度嗎?牙醫去看他檢查牙齒然後還可以說他這個四顆牙齒的脫落可能是因為磨牙牙醫師回報提供的意見可能是磨牙嚴重可能受過刺激不平等待遇或癲癇OK他也有回這個也有醫生看過並不是沒有所以我的意思是說其實"},{"start":355.56,"end":358.643,"text":"社家屬要創造定期的、跨單位的、不同的居家托育服務中心承辦單位、跨縣市的經驗交流機會,要擴大分享的風險資料庫"},{"start":377.063,"end":393.074,"text":"因為一個社工員幾個個案尤其是他看了這個個案他加上自身經驗加上這個學習的這個呃這個呃呈時間的長短不一那你提升所有第一線的從業人員的風險辨識的敏感度那風險分這些個案大家不斷的來共同分享建立一個風險資料庫結果他們檢討的是說可是每次社家屬去舉辦的會議都流於形式"},{"start":407.003,"end":422.584,"text":"都不是第一線工作的社工委員發言回饋都交給不是第一線的專家學者發言所以你們製作出來的手冊沒有跟上實務需求"},{"start":423.405,"end":447.23,"text":"如果個別的居托中心承辦的單位組織內如果你們社交組織這樣子讓學者專家發言沒有第一線的共享風險資料庫但是這個承辦單位的內部比如說兒福聯盟他內部他們有沒有督導會議他們有沒有定期的社工檢討會議如果沒有不常讓訪員間交流分享"},{"start":448.49,"end":453.816,"text":"沒有發揮監督職責,機構內也沒有共同分享的這個風險資料庫的教育等等,房市的品質一定很差所以我們在講說社交屬一定要擴大各居托中心經驗交流"},{"start":468.052,"end":475.64,"text":"不要讓各居家托育中心的工作經驗停留在個人、個別中心或單一縣市。"},{"start":486.258,"end":514.258,"text":"對,因為第一線去訪視,它就是收集資料作為風險辨識的依據,但敏感度是關鍵啊你如果沒有敏感度,你要收集很多資料,你如果不用忙,你也沒有辦法收集很多資料所以這個敏感度是相當要緊的但是呢,我也要跟這個部長你分享,某個居家托育服務中心其他督導的心得"},{"start":515.391,"end":533.407,"text":"這個在社家屬社區發展記刊的文章有一篇叫建構安全居家托育服務安全居家托育服務的建構你如何做到風險辨識文中有提到幾個點第一確保足夠的資訊量要以公精準判斷"},{"start":534.708,"end":562.085,"text":"然後第二個他們有發現提問的資料的豐厚度提高這個訊息來源和察覺風險電房也要這兩者這個對新收拖案例行性的電房他們也要但是他們發現有一點什麼你知道嗎這個中興督導他都透過多年運作的經驗發現有時候真相啊要收拖結束才會發現為什麼"},{"start":564.468,"end":579.824,"text":"因為家長跟保姆之間要維持合作關係所以要有求於保姆有時候不敢講真話他不一定會馬上全盤脫出跟中心說這個保姆有什麼問題馬上就反應"},{"start":581.089,"end":601.428,"text":"但是等到收拖結束、合作關係結束,他可能會講喔,所以托育的過程,這個小孩子結束了,可是保母繼續在帶小孩啊,他存在的具有風險的照顧行為,不會因為這個個案結束而消失,還會延續到下一個收拖的兒童。"},{"start":602.449,"end":615.598,"text":"但是呢可是這個風險沒有被真相沒有被揭露所以他就說有時候呢在收拖更新結束的時候受理保姆的拘托通報以外他們也要求你們要中拖電訪這個家那個家長"},{"start":621.414,"end":649.02,"text":"透過和對家長跟保母回報的結束托育的日期是否一致更重要是要藉此瞭解家長對於整體送托經驗的感受若查到風險的訊息中心便可以處理托育人員不適當有風險的照顧行為所以中托電訪很重要那這個督導他怎麼分享這個中托電訪的內容"},{"start":650.441,"end":674.364,"text":"他說我們剛開始打家長停拖電話家長就想說既然中心來問了而且已經終止收拖了我就講吧他講了兩點第一保母會大聲罵小孩第二寶爸會拿膠帶貼小孩的嘴巴還跟我們家長炫耀這個是媽媽在收拖結束以後才告訴他們的"},{"start":675.771,"end":691.678,"text":"所以說你說定期的有意義有目的的這個電訪很重要但是從收託結束中拖的這個電訪也很重要所以這些都是一種機制啊但是必須要有敏感性而且你們有規定要中拖電訪嗎目前是沒有沒有對所以人家做的好的還有中拖電訪"},{"start":700.91,"end":706.793,"text":"這個關係結束以後,我孩子在你手上拜託你給我,我不跟他說。終止這個托育以後,結束,才會發現真相。這個就是我們在這裡告訴你的。但我今天還有一點要請教這個部長,講這麼久我還是有點不了解。這個凱凱的付費給保姆的是誰?誰付費的?"},{"start":725.08,"end":745.86,"text":"就是他的保姆費是誰付的?目前應該按照機制來講應該是俄府聯盟付給他了阿俄府聯盟沒有拿到補助他為什麼會願意幫這個小孩付錢?會不會有道德風險要幫那個小孩付錢如果他沒有被人家收養時間越拖越長要幫他付的錢越多所以他就越找那個品質越差越便宜的"},{"start":746.3,"end":750.842,"text":"這個機制運作了這麼多年,怎麼會這個樣子呢?他有沒有政府的補助進去?完全都沒有嗎?這麼多年都沒有嗎?我以為百思不得其解,因為兒盟將凱凱交付給這個保姆的時候,為什麼是由他的外婆跟這個保姆簽約的?"},{"start":774.053,"end":797.806,"text":"可是目前的是兒婦聯盟這個關係對價關係不太對啊對所以這一個部分就是我們在檢討報告裡面提到的然後我們未來要去改的這個機制我們就希望他走的是委託安置的一個流程然後就不是我說媒合機構怎麼會有這麼多錢可以去幫你安置這麼多小孩你不會覺得疑問嗎"},{"start":799.79,"end":828.055,"text":"當然因為他後面最後如果媒合成功的話是有收費啦對於收養者去做收費好 但收費標準是怎麼樣以兒福聯盟為例現在收費標準是怎麼樣大概是10萬嘛第一個階段只要去申請就要繳費2萬所以要收養也要花很多錢的不是免費的喔第二階段進行收養評估審查要2萬5第3案第4階段要收多少"},{"start":829.386,"end":854.539,"text":"下一張有沒有第三階段收養五萬五但我知道那個外國人收養要繳兩次繳兩次的那個美金四千元所以給外國人收養可以收到美金八千元台灣人收養可以收養成功他要繳十萬元外國人要收養台灣小孩繳八千塊美金所以靠這個收入來cover那個支出"},{"start":855.8,"end":876.015,"text":"那所以顯然支柱的時間要越短越好,所以他難以做到最好的評估,所以你們才說這個有道德風險,因為大家都覺得出洋是一個評估,要經過專業的評估才能出洋。如果照這種道理,我愛互出是這孩子,我愛保證他出洋,如果沒保證他出洋,"},{"start":878.897,"end":897.45,"text":"我看這孩子的錢都要倒掉,怎麼會有這種事情,怎麼會沒有機構要做這種事情,所以就要保證每個孩子都要給他出洋,不管他是不是需要出洋,不管專業評估到底是不是出洋對這個小孩是最好的,他都勢必要讓他出洋"},{"start":900.416,"end":902.438,"text":"所以出養越多,收入越多,就沒有機構而言"},{"start":921.295,"end":947.706,"text":"當然為了節省成本他還沒有沒有成功還沒有收養出去還沒有這個出養出去所以他當然是要找成本成本比較低的所以在找這種很惡質的保姆的收的就好現在這是各位負責多少?差不多兩萬多他到底是收多少?好像是兩萬五兩萬六兩萬六?還有理事休息夠不夠了各位?"},{"start":949.454,"end":962.423,"text":"然後這個俄府聯盟也不能太挑剔因為他這個錢他還要自己付所以他找品質好的他可能要付更多的錢有這種風險對 有這種風險因為原來的他的那個保姆的話一個月3萬一開始設計這種制度就是一個大錯誤社會安全網不安全這不是社會安全網這一開始就是一個社會漏洞網"},{"start":980.938,"end":1007.09,"text":"我們發現問題就是把它糾正過來對啦可是我們只剩8年了你現在跟我講說現在發現問題我們就把它糾正過來我是覺得蠻遺憾的因為這個在道德上風險太大了然後在運作上也是你會讓它整個這個保姆的服務當然是尋求最便宜的當然風險就更大"},{"start":1008.744,"end":1015.767,"text":"尋求最便宜的風險更大,然後在專業的這個出養的評估上,也勢必一定要評估出出養,沒有這個機構,沒有機構就了不起啊,了不起啊。若是外國人來收養更好,因為可以收8000塊錢美金,那台灣人收養的話才收10萬元。"},{"start":1029.572,"end":1057.813,"text":"每一個收養小孩的人他必須就一開始第一階段就要收兩萬第二階段收兩萬五分階段就要繳費不成功呢不成功就是沒多少錢所以都要保證成功這樣子真的是我們把兒童要出養的兒童小孩送入深淵裡面聽起來整個制度不是一個社會安全網是反而把小孩推入深淵深坑裡面"},{"start":1059.121,"end":1059.501,"text":"林淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"150040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733afed40b2b252e529b25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a68dabc12a4db4132a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:45:27 - 14:56:36","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":669,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:56:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T14:45:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1812,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（14時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。今天我來盤點一下、追蹤一下過去關心的很多事情的相關進度。首先，上上禮拜我在這邊質詢的時候有提到，去年部長曾表示，即將研議健保第六類國人，若是經濟弱勢者，將全額補助健保費；原住民年齡的部分，本席有要求降到55歲。當時我在質詢之後，部長有特別指示相關單位來跟我說明，不過我一直苦苦等候到現在，沒有任何一個人來過我的辦公室找我，今天社家署有來，我想瞭解一下，這中間你們到底發生了什麼事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：署長，你要不要說明一下？"],["陳委員瑩：還是部長要幫他解釋嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為你在問的是實際的問題，就是為什麼人沒有去。"],["陳委員瑩：是啊！你也有說了，結果他沒有來，他沒有聽你的話啊！所以好好解釋一下。"],["簡署長慧娟：因為我們內部還在蒐集一些資料跟跑一些資料，這是要跟健保署那邊去做一些資料的勾稽，我們本來就有中低收入戶健保費的補助，含55歲以上，可是經濟弱勢用第六類的話，因為第六類裡面不一定全部都是經濟弱勢，所以這個部分可能需要再做一些資料的整理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果你有這樣子的問題，那撥一通電話稍微先說明一下會很困難嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：對不起，委員，真的是疏忽了。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個疏忽可能不是只有這一件，也可能不是只有你而已，就讓我們繼續看下去。我今天也讓部長多多瞭解一下你們內部的一些狀況。好，謝謝。","再來，另外一件事是我去年在衛環委員會質詢要求的事項，長者的助聽器不便宜，再加上可能有些長者還要再加裝假牙，所以全部加起來都是很貴的。現在因為只有針對聽覺障礙，而且持有身心障礙者證明才可以有補助，使得聽力退化的長者沒有辦法申請補助，所以我希望你們可以針對聽力退化的長者，提供購置助聽器的補助，當時部長也是很清楚的說，我們有講好3個月研議的時間，現在算一算快半年了，研議了那麼久，也一樣都沒有跟我說明進度，那我也不知道中間又發生什麼事了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分主要的負責單位應該是長照司，當然有一部分是社家署這邊要去處理的，這個部分回去後我會再責成他們，今天是禮拜一，這個禮拜內我會請他們跟委員來做報告，因為今天長照司的同仁並沒有來列席。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，是這樣子的，因為選舉前我有要求的事項，當然也請各個單位可以自己整理一下，雖然是新的任期，但是在這邊所有要求的事項，並沒有屆期不續審的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：欠債要還錢。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！所以請大家要主動，特別是部長都有交代了，你們要把部長放在眼裡。","再來，一樣的，去年5月我主持了原住民族健康法的審查，在許多委員、機關及民間團體共同努力之下，好不容易終於三讀通過了，我想跟部長講的是，原健法通過之後，該做的事就要趕快趕上進度，因為在這一次選舉當中，我們很多的候選人，有很瞭解立法院的候選人，也有完全不懂立法院的候選人，他們都在大肆的唱衰原健法，所以原健法的條文內應該做的事情，我希望能夠趕快完成，這個部分請部長加油。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，第一個就是設專責的單位，我們的規劃是在照護司底下，目前這個案子正在跟人事總處爭取。"],["陳委員瑩：當然依照原健法第二條第二項規定，中央主管機關應指定專責單位辦理原住民族健康事務，過去我也希望它是三級機關，至少這個單位是署或者是司，但是討論的結果，最後是以科來收場，雖然我不滿意這樣的結果，但是為了不要再耽誤原健法通過的時程，所以我們也就勉強接受先讓它上路，未來再找適當時機讓它繼續升級。我想請問部長這個科的籌備狀況，因為去年我在質詢的時候，部長有表示是年底前會成立。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前正在跟行政院爭取預算的員額，因為這要成立一個科。"],["陳委員瑩：但是溝通的狀況好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：努力爭取當中啦！"],["陳委員瑩：因為據我瞭解，目前好像只有增加一名專員。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，那是目前為止已經做到的，但是我們仍然有把案子送到行政院去，希望行政院那邊能夠核定給我們。"],["陳委員瑩：是，部長，請問您有親自跟人事總處的最高長官溝通嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我會跟人事長溝通。"],["陳委員瑩：再拜託部長，希望你們可以面對面、好好的溝通一下，而且科長的部分我希望能以原住民優先來做選擇，這是我最期盼的事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會考慮這個部分。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。","再來，去年10月的時候，我同時也問了原住民族健康研究中心的籌備狀況，因為當時今年度的預算已經送交立法院了，我非常擔心它會沒有經費，沒經費就沒有辦法如期在國衛院下成立這個研究中心，後來部長也有答應會想辦法籌措經費來處理，非常謝謝部長，我們去年底有一起去參加揭牌儀式，其實大家都很關心原住民族健康研究中心現在的運作情形跟未來的運作模式，部長是不是可以跟大家說明一下目前的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：硬體的部分已經成立了，應該是科發基金那邊撥1,000萬給國衛院來執行，所以預算暫時也是有來源了。至於組織的部分，我想應該是由他們的副院長來擔任這個中心的主任，也有一位執行秘書來幫忙，至於這個工作小組的運作，我們會成立這個工作小組而且會定期來討論這個中心如何來運作，所以這個部分大概都已經在進行當中了。"],["陳委員瑩：好。我想首要之務就類似資料庫的建置。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員瑩：包括我們整個原住民族健康研究的方向，再請你們多加油。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員瑩：未來原住民族健康研究中心這些研究的項目，還有民間團體的建議，我希望這中間的溝通管道是可以很暢通的，因為畢竟他們都是在第一線的工作者，他們很清楚知道原住民族在地方相關的健康照顧情形，存在哪些問題需要去解決的，所以我希望大家可以廣納他們的意見跟想法。"],["薛部長瑞元：4月份的時候我們就會召開這個中心的一個政策會報，對於剛剛委員所提到的這些，未來要研究的方向等等，屆時會在那裡進行討論。"],["陳委員瑩：好。最後，本席有一個建議，我在上一屆主持原健法的審查過程當中，我有請你們盤點所有有關原住民族健康照護政策的經費，且未來的每一年，請你們把前一年支出的經費做一個統計，避免那些唱衰原健法的人們一直在說原健法的通過，它都只是一個空殼，沒有實質的幫助，所以我希望部長可以大力的，用行動來證明它絕對不是一個空殼，它對我們原住民的健康是相當有幫助的一個法案。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。大概有三個我們會去做的事情，第一個，如同委員在講的，我們每年經費是怎麼樣運用、執行的狀況是如何，這是第一個；第二個，屆時會有年報出來，就是這個研究中心做了哪些研究，還有它的成果等等。"],["陳委員瑩：我相信這個年報未來就是一個即時的年報，就不會像以前還隔了3、4年那麼久了。"],["薛部長瑞元：第三個就是研究計畫，如果是這個研究中心所提出來的或者是審核通過的研究計畫，我們也會把它公開，所以大概有以上三個，就是我們會把這個資訊予以透明化。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。等一下林淑芬委員質詢結束後我們休息5分鐘，因為下午還有其他委員會接著質詢，我們也讓官員稍微休息一下。","接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.26659375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.48971875,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.265968750000003,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.763468750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.34159375,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.01221875,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.84721875000001,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.23096875,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.79596875,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.08221875000001,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.66846875,"end":79.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.98471875,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.09846875000001,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.68034375,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.47284375000001,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.00784375,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.03659375000001,"end":113.95409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":116.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.85659375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.97471875000001,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.02846875,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.88909375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.03221875000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.90534375000001,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.87971875,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.37284375000002,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.91159375,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.50034375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.17909375000002,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.24659375000002,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.40659375,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.72909375,"end":232.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.46721875,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.48409375000003,"end":232.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.99346875,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.36971875,"end":302.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.16096875,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.74721875,"end":303.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.84971875,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.03534375000004,"end":350.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.18721875,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.79471875,"end":352.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.38534375,"end":352.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.65096875,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.41034375000004,"end":353.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.34596875,"end":360.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.91534375000003,"end":363.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.17659375000005,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.37034375,"end":369.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.59346875,"end":382.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.30034375,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.07159375000003,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.69159375000004,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.27784375000005,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.53471875,"end":409.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.65284375000005,"end":394.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.84221875000003,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.21221875000003,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.47784375000003,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.39721875000004,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.25784375,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.17034375000003,"end":459.45284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.49096875000004,"end":465.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.97596875000005,"end":461.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.60846875000004,"end":463.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.21971875,"end":477.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.59346875000006,"end":508.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.25096875,"end":536.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.0090937499999,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.8628437500001,"end":536.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9765937500001,"end":555.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.3872187500001,"end":564.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.87096875,"end":565.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.47846875,"end":568.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.5290937500001,"end":565.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.2078437499999,"end":574.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.41784375,"end":604.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.98284375,"end":622.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.1572187500001,"end":623.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.7478437500001,"end":629.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.14346875,"end":634.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.90221875,"end":640.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.6397187499999,"end":643.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.68159375,"end":648.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.03096875,"end":648.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.1615937500001,"end":651.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.7434687500001,"end":658.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.26971875,"end":663.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.43346875,"end":666.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.3615937500001,"end":665.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.00284375,"end":666.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.4497187500001,"end":668.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.4834687500002,"end":668.70284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.295,"end":29.962,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩請請部長好部長請部長好我想今天我來盤點一下要追蹤一下過去關心很多事情的這個進度好那主要就是說在上上禮拜我在這邊質詢的時候有提到就是去年部長表示"},{"start":32.082,"end":53.55,"text":"即將要研議這個健保第6類國人若是經濟弱勢者將全額補助健保費那原住民年齡的部分本系有要求降到55歲那當時我在質詢之後部長有特別指示相關單位來跟我說明不過我一直哭哭等候到現在沒有任何一個人"},{"start":54.17,"end":71.736,"text":"有來過我的辦公室找我那今天社家署有來我想了解一下就是這個中間到底是你們發生了什麼事情還是部長要幫他解釋嗎因為你在問的是實際的問題為什麼人沒有去你不要有說嘛結果他沒來沒聽你的話好好解釋一下"},{"start":83.96,"end":102.507,"text":"因為這個我們內部還在收集一些資料跟跟跑一些資料因為這個要跟健保署那邊去做一些資料的勾結啦因為我們本來就有中低收入戶的這個健保費的補助因為含55歲以上"},{"start":103.087,"end":103.208,"text":"主席"},{"start":116.854,"end":135.967,"text":"好那我想如果你有這樣子的問題那撥一通電話稍微先說明一下很困難嗎這個對不起委員真的疏忽了好那我想這個疏忽可能不是只有這一件也可能不是只有你而已那就讓我們繼續看下去"},{"start":136.607,"end":157.362,"text":"那我今天也讓部長來多多瞭解一下你們內部的一些狀況好 謝謝那再來另外一件事就是說也是我去年的時候呢在這個衛環委員會質詢要求的事項長者的助聽器不便宜齁再加上可能有些長者還要再加裝假牙所以全部加起來都是很貴的"},{"start":157.822,"end":160.504,"text":"聽力退化的長者沒有辦法申請補助所以我希望你們可以針對聽力退化的長者提供購置助聽器的補助那當時"},{"start":174.213,"end":187.748,"text":"部長也是很清楚的我們有講好三個月研議的時間那現在算一算快半年了那研議那麼久也一樣都沒有跟我說明進度那我也不知道中間又發生什麼事了"},{"start":189.271,"end":211.445,"text":"這個部分的話應該是主要負責的單位應該是長照師當然有一部分的話是社交署這邊要去處理的這個部分的話我想我會回去再責任他們就是說今天是禮拜一這個禮拜我請他們去跟委員做報告"},{"start":216.145,"end":238.842,"text":"部長是這樣因為選舉前我有要求的事項當然也請各個單位可以自己整理一下雖然是新的任期但是在這邊所有要求的事項並沒有借其不敘省的問題欠債要還錢所以請大家要主動特別部長都有交代了你們要把部長放在眼裡"},{"start":240.103,"end":255.371,"text":"好那再來一樣就是說在去年5月我主持了這個援助民族健康法的審查那在許多的委員、機關及民間團體共同的努力之下好不容易終於三讀通過了"},{"start":256.311,"end":272.113,"text":"那我想部長是說跟部長講的是說原件法通過之後呢該做的事我們要趕快趕上進度因為在這一次選舉當中我們很多的候選人有那個很瞭解立法院的候選人"},{"start":273.835,"end":289.306,"text":"也有就完全不懂立法院的候選人都在大肆的唱衰這個原件法所以原件法的這個條文內應該做的事情我希望能夠趕快完成這個部分是請部長"},{"start":290.226,"end":314.146,"text":"跟我們報告,第一個就是說要設專責的單位,我們規劃是在查護室底下目前這個案子正在跟人事總署這邊講到這個就是說因為當然依照這個原件法的第二條的第二項規定中央主管機關應指定專責單位來辦理原住民的健康事務那過去我也希望說"},{"start":315.327,"end":342.566,"text":"希望他是三級機關那至少說這個單位是屬或是私但是因為討論的結果最後是以科來收藏那雖然我不滿意這樣的結果但是我們為了不要再耽誤原建法通過的時程所以也就勉強接受先讓他上路未來再找適當時機我們再讓他繼續升級那我想請問就是說好部長你說這個科的籌備狀況"},{"start":344.727,"end":360.63,"text":"因為去年我在質詢的時候部長有表示說年底嘛年底的時候年底前會成立目前正在跟行政院爭取這個預算的緣額要成立一個科但是他"},{"start":361.977,"end":362.557,"text":"請問您有親自跟人事總署的那個"},{"start":389.725,"end":389.745,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":411.491,"end":433.504,"text":"那再來就是去年10月的時候我同時也問了這個原住民族健康研究中心的籌備狀況因為當時今年年度的預算已經送交立法院了我非常擔心說他沒有經費那但是就是說沒經費就沒有辦法如期在國衛院下成立這個研究中心"},{"start":434.685,"end":457.52,"text":"後來部長也有答應然後想辦法籌措經費來處理也非常謝謝部長那我們在去年底有一起去參加那個揭牌然後就是大家其實都很關心原住民族健康研究中心現在運作情形跟未來的運作模式那部長是不是可以跟大家說明一下"},{"start":458.44,"end":471.127,"text":"目前這個狀況這個硬體的部分是已經成立了那我們從這個應該是科巴基金那邊的話撥了一千萬給這個國務院來執行所以預算暫時也是有來源的"},{"start":477.931,"end":505.716,"text":"那至於說這個組織的部分的話我想是他們的副院長去擔任這個主任那也有一位執行秘書來幫忙那這個工作小組的這一個運作的話我們會成立這個工作小組而且會定期來討論那有關於這個中心的如何來運作這一個部分的話大概都已經"},{"start":506.598,"end":507.509,"text":"在進行當中．"},{"start":509.295,"end":536.254,"text":"好那就是我想首要這個首要之極就是有關於像類似的資料庫的建置那我們整個這個援助民族健康研究的方向再請你們多加油那在未來這個援助民族健康研究中心的這些研究項目還有民間團體的建議我希望在這個整個中間的這個溝通管道它是"},{"start":537.054,"end":539.075,"text":"4月份的時候我們就會召開這個中心的一個政策會報"},{"start":566.067,"end":573.871,"text":"對於剛剛委員所提到的這些未來要研究的方向等等這些的話會在那裡去討論"},{"start":575.472,"end":603.825,"text":"好那最後本席有一個建議就是在我之前上一屆主持這個原建法審查的過程當中我有請你們盤點就是所有有關這個原住民族健康照護政策的經費那未來呢每年就是請你們可以把這個前一年的這個支出的經費做一個統計避免那些這個唱衰這個原建法的人們"},{"start":604.906,"end":604.926,"text":"好．"},{"start":623.894,"end":629.559,"text":"我相信這個年報以後未來是即時的年報就不會像以前還隔個三四年那麼久"},{"start":649.395,"end":664.632,"text":"第3個就是研究計畫,如果說在這個研究中心所提出來或是審核通過的研究計畫,那我們也會把它公開。所以大概只有3個我們會把這個資訊把它透明化。好,謝謝部長。"}]}},{"id":"150039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ace0f8fbdeec6da5a25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6fb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:32:53 - 14:45:20","影片長度":"00:12:27","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":747,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:45:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T14:32:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1765,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（14時32分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下薛部長。"],["主席：好，我們請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我剛剛聽了一句話，所以就調整一下我的質詢順序，我們通常都是相信人是善良的，整個制度的設計，也都是用這個來做為立論基礎，雖然人是善良的，可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌，所以才會發生不幸，我現在就直接這樣子講，保母跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的，這個信賴也就是建立在彼此認知為善良的，對不對？也因為這樣子，加上社工的工作量也大，我今天也不想再談社工工作量跟待遇的問題，因為這個問題我們在本委員會討論太多次了。","這一次事件發生以後，我第一個想到的就是，現在會不會有很多社工其實把訪視用通訊的方式來做替代？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是不會啦！該去實地訪視的他們都還是有這樣做，因為完成之後也必須要做報告。"],["楊委員曜：對嘛！不至於因為各項通訊軟體的進步，所以就……"],["薛部長瑞元：未來如果在特殊狀況之下，是可以用這種所謂視訊的話，則我們會進一步去做規定。"],["楊委員曜：對，我要講的是，像這個案子的最後一次訪視，保母是說家裡有人確診，此時視訊可能可以做為取代。"],["薛部長瑞元：可以來做輔助的工具。"],["楊委員曜：可是它只能在特殊的狀況下，因為執行業務的人，先不說是保母或是誰，執行業務的人若有心要為惡，沒有到現場去做訪視，其實都很難察覺出問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：因為視訊本身要作假也容易，可是假如有萬一不得已的情況，這個倒是可以作為替代。","部長，我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣，就是臺灣社會發生這樣一件事情，覺得很痛心，對小孩子也很不捨以外，我有發現一個問題，以臺灣資訊這麼多元、這麼快速、這麼發達的情況，為什麼一個重大的虐童案件從去年12月底發生，一直到3月份社會大眾才知道？這個問題我覺得還滿誇張的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個事件對大眾來曝光，為什麼會拖了3個月，當然我們也是很關心，不過因為這牽涉到司法調查，這案件當時就在司法調查……"],["楊委員曜：不是，司法調查是偵查的內容不公開，可是案件通常會浮出檯面，但這個案子並沒有，這個案子是小孩送到醫院的時候，醫生從外觀判斷，從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除，這一看就是一個刑案，然後警政機關也知道，看樣子臺北的社會處一定知道，兒盟一定知道，衛福部也知道，可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情，我覺得還滿訝異的。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，我個人的判斷，這中間可能有一些誤解的地方，也就是說，對於進入司法程序的案件，就會有所謂的偵查不公開，但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍。"],["楊委員曜：對！對！"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏，聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題，這都是我們自己要去進行行政調查的，而不是因為已經進入到司法，所以這些就通通暫停不做。"],["楊委員曜：司法調查跟行政調查本來就是兩回事啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就是不一樣，但可能是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的一個誤解，以為已經進入到司法調查，所以其他這些工作大概可以暫緩，等到司法調查結果出來，我們再接續去做行政調查，其實這個觀念是需要再做調整的。"],["楊委員曜：臺灣目前新聞量不足，然後新聞台又過多的情況下，昨天晚上我看到一則新聞，就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡，平常收150，有一個司機收了200，這就上了新聞啊！結果我們這一件事情，竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人，我現在講的不是公開的講出來，而是私底下把訊息傳出來，連個人把訊息傳出來的情況都沒有，這是我覺得還滿訝異的地方，這也讓我另外想到……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，應該是這樣講，對於這類的案件，行政機關在處理的時候，不管是地方還是中央在處理的過程當中，都不太會主動告知媒體，原則上並不會主動告知媒體，但是以過去的經驗，雖然沒有主動告知媒體，但媒體都還是會知道。"],["楊委員曜：對！對！"],["薛部長瑞元：為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體，然後就通通都不知道，這的確是一個值得去探討的現象。"],["楊委員曜：我從這裡又聯想到另外一個問題，這是一個極度弱勢家庭所造成的悲劇，假如他家裡面還有其他的人，我想這件事情不至於會從事發到現在拖了將近3個月的時間，所以弱勢家庭的保障，真的是我們政府的責任。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：我們先不說其他機制上的東西，光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢，我相信假如是一般的情況，縱使也是委託出養，假如不是只剩下一個老祖母，我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在，部長，我這樣子講有沒有道理？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上，他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母，他祖父也還在。"],["楊委員曜：對！對！都是隔代了嘛！他可能跟外界……"],["薛部長瑞元：就已經是失聯了，然後家裡會知道這個兒童過世，應該是兒福聯盟這個媒合機構跟他們講的，至於它怎麼樣去描述死因等等這一些，我們並不是很清楚，所以這部分當然還可以再進一步來瞭解，如果沒有把死因說得很詳細，可能家屬就會認為，就已經遇到了，所以就算了，但因為這個案子後來要進入到解剖，法醫驗屍後認為是他殺，而這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道，我們就比較不清楚了。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我也不能問好問滿啦！因為陳瑩委員說他辦公室有一個協調會，我協調會也是開到一半啦！我最後再講一個問題，就是現在這個剴剴的案件，他原本就有一個保母，原本的保母對他的照料是沒有問題的，因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作、媒介工作，所以就換成兒盟的保母，這個有沒有必須呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這其實有違反一些原則，因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係，而且中間沒有發現有什麼樣問題的話，基本上是不應該去換保母。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：至於為什麼會換，我們就要進一步再去做理解，到底他的動機是什麼樣子，或者是他的……"],["楊委員曜：還是兒盟的機制到底是怎麼樣？因為就兒童權利公約來看，所有兒童的事務，不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門，都必須要以兒童的最佳利益為優先。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：而我覺得假如這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件，就是保母沒有換，事情就不會發生。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能就不會發生。"],["楊委員曜：所以這個部分是不是也請部裡面跟兒盟或者是所有相關單位，就是以後所有的事情都必須要……"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，我們這個案子其實還沒有結案。"],["楊委員曜：我知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們還是繼續有一些疑點等等在追蹤，除了在法規上面要去做修正之外，其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。"],["楊委員曜：除了究責以外，因為刑事責任的部分，司法就歸司法了，除了責任的釐清以外，我覺得制度上如何讓它朝向全面性的，即所有的措施都應站在兒童利益來做出發點，我覺得這才是最重要的，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊曜委員的質詢。","接下來我們請陳瑩委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.81909375,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.880968750000001,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.75346875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.90409375,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.96284375,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.26221875,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.38846875,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.88596875,"end":37.290968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.24034375,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.854093750000004,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.30409375000001,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.83034375,"end":69.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.01159375,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.46284375,"end":73.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.48346875,"end":75.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.55909375,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.65409375,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.46784375,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.23534375000001,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.87221875,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.07034375,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.01096875,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.21284375,"end":114.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.13659375,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.16909375,"end":123.85971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.91034375000001,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.07409375,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.44284375,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.52221875,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.29846875,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.90596875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.00284375,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.01971875,"end":153.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.07034375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.93096875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.06971875000002,"end":158.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.43221875,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.16909375,"end":184.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.73784375000002,"end":175.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.35284375,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.32221875000002,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.90284375000002,"end":199.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.31971875000002,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.00971875000002,"end":224.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.95346875,"end":227.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.75909375,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.91471875000002,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.14221875,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.20096875000002,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.11159375000003,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.99971875000003,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.86034375000003,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.50534375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.68221875,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.82096875,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.80721875,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.07721875000004,"end":278.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.16034375000004,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.44971875000005,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.44034375,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.98846875000004,"end":302.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.00846875,"end":306.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.90534375000004,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.00596875,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.46159375,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.27034375,"end":334.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":341.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.28659375,"end":335.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.23909375,"end":344.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.82534375,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.58034375,"end":346.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":352.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.90409375,"end":367.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.78784375000004,"end":371.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.29346875000005,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.71096875,"end":377.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.16596875000005,"end":385.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.38409375000003,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.11784375,"end":392.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.79221875,"end":394.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.68659375000004,"end":396.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.81284375,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.57596875,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.37284375,"end":405.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.95909375,"end":414.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.86909375000005,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.15596875,"end":423.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.23909375000005,"end":431.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.81159375000004,"end":440.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.86971875,"end":438.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.34596875000005,"end":447.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.09659375,"end":444.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.72471875,"end":450.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.26034375,"end":453.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.47471875,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.62596875,"end":459.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.41471875,"end":464.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.54909375000005,"end":467.43471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.14346875,"end":472.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.83034375000005,"end":476.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.66534375000003,"end":487.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.63534375,"end":479.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.66784375000003,"end":491.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.16909375000006,"end":496.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.06721875000005,"end":501.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.23096875000005,"end":504.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.53846875000005,"end":508.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.79096875000005,"end":511.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.51221875000005,"end":516.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.1865937499999,"end":519.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.76034375,"end":517.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.8315937500001,"end":520.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.86534375,"end":519.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.1015937500001,"end":522.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.26596875,"end":524.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.2990937500001,"end":527.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.5772187499999,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.4028437500001,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.69346875,"end":547.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.57409375,"end":549.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.3584687499999,"end":553.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.7165937500001,"end":562.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.91346875,"end":567.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.11096875,"end":568.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.14034375,"end":574.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.74284375,"end":574.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.9409687500001,"end":581.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.6397187499999,"end":590.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.01034375,"end":599.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.73034375,"end":601.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.9240937500001,"end":603.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.86909375,"end":605.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.24846875,"end":607.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.63221875,"end":610.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.2434687500001,"end":611.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.85096875,"end":613.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.94346875,"end":617.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.77409375,"end":617.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.8584687499999,"end":617.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.89221875,"end":617.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.19596875,"end":619.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.72721875,"end":622.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.1572187500001,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.6965937500001,"end":629.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.43034375,"end":631.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.3034687500001,"end":632.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.4509687500001,"end":634.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.47596875,"end":635.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.01596875,"end":644.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.92596875,"end":647.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.5078437500001,"end":647.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.71034375,"end":648.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.72721875,"end":648.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.3515937500001,"end":648.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.4865937500001,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.1784687500001,"end":659.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.5990937500001,"end":683.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.0122187500001,"end":661.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.56221875,"end":677.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.8828437500001,"end":678.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.70471875,"end":684.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.0590937500001,"end":684.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.79721875,"end":686.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.84784375,"end":687.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.40034375,"end":688.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.8178437500001,"end":690.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.03284375,"end":691.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.45471875,"end":705.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.4565937500001,"end":705.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.52409375,"end":708.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.35096875,"end":706.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.57846875,"end":709.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.62909375,"end":719.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.9734687499999,"end":740.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.4622187500001,"end":724.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.9809687500001,"end":725.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.2822187500001,"end":745.8215937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.053,"end":11.196,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長"},{"start":14.915,"end":32.878,"text":"委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個"},{"start":34.434,"end":60.087,"text":"用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的"},{"start":61.528,"end":82.447,"text":"那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了"},{"start":89.85,"end":114.112,"text":"這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告"},{"start":115.376,"end":131.746,"text":"對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診"},{"start":141.893,"end":164.668,"text":"事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實"},{"start":169.226,"end":183.695,"text":"沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代"},{"start":188.356,"end":210.953,"text":"部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況"},{"start":217.199,"end":231.09,"text":"為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的"},{"start":235.914,"end":257.209,"text":"對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是"},{"start":258.884,"end":277.882,"text":"偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案"},{"start":279.232,"end":300.461,"text":"然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的"},{"start":303.455,"end":328.362,"text":"該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是"},{"start":331.323,"end":350.936,"text":"我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解"},{"start":353.127,"end":377.059,"text":"以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下"},{"start":378.363,"end":403.103,"text":"昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息"},{"start":404.394,"end":410.759,"text":"我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。"},{"start":432.277,"end":459.153,"text":"但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇"},{"start":460.481,"end":472.058,"text":"假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間"},{"start":474.271,"end":496.003,"text":"所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢"},{"start":497.13,"end":524.303,"text":"我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了"},{"start":525.339,"end":528.2,"text":"家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。"},{"start":539.755,"end":566.34,"text":"那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了"},{"start":568.36,"end":581.214,"text":"但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚"},{"start":586.67,"end":610.502,"text":"部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆"},{"start":611.943,"end":634.066,"text":"那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?"},{"start":636.403,"end":657.688,"text":"對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":662.209,"end":684.528,"text":"因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是"},{"start":685.888,"end":707.975,"text":"保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案"},{"start":709.316,"end":731.671,"text":"我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?"},{"start":734.033,"end":734.233,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a6801b1474fd2dec425cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a663964f54ed6af20b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"14:14:43 - 14:32:47","影片長度":"00:18:04","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1084,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:32:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T14:14:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1697,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（14時14分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，在檢討政府的責任之前，我看到一個更大的危機，因為我覺得社安網正在瓦解中，所以想要請教部長，您認同嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不太認同。"],["廖委員偉翔：不太認同，好，為什麼我要這樣講？我想跟您說的是，社安網不只是政府、社福單位或是案家，更重要的還有全國1萬8,600多名社工專業跟熱忱，這是111年的資料，才得以讓我們全國的社安網撐起來，但這次的事件也有可能讓好不容易打造的社安網一夕間崩潰，這是我的憂慮，也是我剛剛提到我覺得社安網正在瓦解的原因。其實這次事件也造成社工界的集體心理創傷，請教部長，這個部分您覺得要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個部分，第一個部分，對於涉案的社工本身來講，他到底是否有刑事責任，這個是一件事情，但是在處理的過程當中給他上銬，這的確是非常的不妥。第二個，其他的社工人員，我們是非常支持，其他部分我們不方便評論。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。我要講的事情是針對這個結構性的問題，社工界長期以來就是有三高三缺一低的問題，也就是高風險、高案量、高壓力，缺督導、缺合作、缺資源，以及偏低的薪資條件。更別提之前常常有新聞媒體報導有薪資回捐的陋習，並且也有研究指出，社工系畢業生投入社工者大概是只有5成，就業3年後近3成離開社工圈，留任者又有3成可能要離開社工專業。所以我剛剛講的事情也不是針對這個個案，因為畢竟這是一個社會事件，那我們只是透過這個個案來看我們社會上的這個系統有沒有問題。看起來社工留任困難已經是一個結構性的問題，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以這麼說。"],["廖委員偉翔：可以這麼說，所以我認為我們應該要想辦法來重振社工的士氣，這一環是社安網裡面非常重要的一環。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想這有兩點可以努力的方向，跟部長分享，也請教部長有沒有其他的想法。我想有兩點努力的方向，分別是提高薪資，以及提升專業認同，當然求才管道要多元求才當然是不在話下，但我覺得主要是這兩點。想要請教部長，所謂社工薪點的折合率有沒有機會再往上調高一些？我知道去年大概9月的時候有調高過一次。"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員提到兩點其實都非常正確，第一個是薪資能不能再繼續往上調，這也是我們努力的方向，不過這還是要看整體國家財政的狀況如何。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝，那就請部長在這部分也多多著墨。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。另外針對提高形象這個部分，我覺得這幾年來對於社工形象的提升應該已經有一個程度了，因為在稍早幾年，大家連志工跟社工都分不清楚，現在大家都瞭解社工就是社工，而且社工真的是肩負著非常重大的責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，我懂你的意思，但是我想再加強這一塊，而且你們檢討完有沒有可以做更多的地方？因為我們知道，一旦社工人員認同他的社工專業生涯，他投入工作可以獲得成就感，就比較不會產生職業怠惰。所以我提這個問題，我不是要您解釋過去有怎麼樣進展，我是想問在發生這個事件之後，還有沒有你們覺得可以做得更好、更多的地方呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然永遠都有努力的空間，比方說提到薪資的部分，這個就逐步要去依照我們能夠負擔的財政狀況去做提升。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，我聽起來是沒有針對專業認同的部分，你們可能要回去再思考，看在下一次開會或檢討會議時有沒有比較具體可行的執行行動方案，不然現在聽起來是比較模糊，我們都知道要往這個方向，可是可能要透過你們的專業，還有你們跨部會整合，才能找出真正可以動作的執行方案。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也有去了解一下，這幾年有一些社工，比如私的社工不太願意加入社安網，原因是他們說社安網的年資無法採認，所以導致可能在經驗傳承上，他過去所累積經驗現在轉到社安網裡好像不會被採認，請問部長有這個事情嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會有這個事情，不過如果有這方面問題的話，我是希望能直接跟衛福部來對接，讓我們來瞭解真正的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，也請衛福部稍微再去瞭解一下有沒有這樣的狀況，不然有經驗的社工如果沒有辦法傳承，的確會讓新的社工折損率也很高，也不利於我們社會安全網的布建。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，部長，你們昨天才提供虐童案的時序表，雖然晚到，但是總比不到來得好，本席想要請教，首次兒童權利國家公約報告的時候，許多學者專家提到家外安置的狀況，在會議上總結提出這個機制是要以家庭為單位做進行，2019年時，社家署也針對這個評估的內容開啟了家外安置兒少替代性照顧資源強化計畫的推動與執行，希望能夠協助各個縣市在地評估小組，視安置兒少的不同需求，提供安置單位所需的資源，也就是由縣市政府為首的在地評估小組，在各地的兒少安置中扮演一個中介的角色，然後再邀請不同的專家，例如早療、心理諮商、法務等等擔任委員，讓兒少的評估可以更全面的關照。部長，過去出養是由衛福部委託的社福機構執行評估，但這次的專家會議決定未來出養由地方政府評估，想請問部長，是否過去有發生過機構和寄養家庭間為了利益問題而糾纏不清，所以才要做這樣修改？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這是這一次我們發現了這個問題，我們決定就一定要做這方面的修改，因為媒合機構如果是統包一條龍的話，的確容易發生問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，部長，未來出養決定是否也應該納入在地評估小組以及TDM，也就是團體決策會議。"],["薛部長瑞元：要。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。","另外，涉及兒少法的修法，請問何時能夠提出修法的版本？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實剛剛委員提到這一點是不必等到兒權法的修正，至於委員問到兒權法的立法進度，現在大概還在衛福部裡面，因為我們這一次會有兩個法同時進行，一個是兒權法，一個是托育服務法，就是托育的專法，這兩個會同時進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒問題，請部長再繼續努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，針對虐童致死案件，上週三也有很多縣市的各個社工團體發出聲明，就是強烈譴責我們的主責主管機關也就是衛福部，沒有依照社政單位兒少保護案件通報處理調查及處遇服務作業程序的規定，在重大兒虐案件發生30天內要完成調查報告。請教部長，是什麼原因讓您覺得可以不開會研商、不做檢討報告？當初我有看到新聞，您說是因為小孩已經死了，所以就可以不用開會嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我沒有這樣講，跟委員報告，其實處理事件的流程是地方要做通報，這是第一個；第二個，地方在10天之內要去開檢討會議，檢討會議之後，兩週之內要把檢討報告提給衛福部，所以並不是說……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以您的意思是30天沒有完成報告，是因為地方政府沒有開會嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有規定中央一定要去開檢討會議，而是地方一定要開，地方把檢討報告送過來之後，我們如果發現這中間可能有問題，我們才去開會，然後請地方來做說明。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這個程序的規定，不包含衛福部需要在30天內完成這個調查報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，沒有，應該沒有這個。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為您這樣的說法，很像是司法調查沒有問題，但是我們的主責單位沒有職責要去瞭解在整個流程、過程當中，有沒有一些行政上需要改進的地方，但這才是重點！因為依規定，我是覺得該檢討就要檢討，但是沒有檢討，現在亡羊補牢，後面開了專家會議，當然其中還有一項，你們提到會要求增加訪視率，問題是現在各個縣市政府也都有缺社工的情況，請問衛福部要怎麼達成這個目標，有沒有任何的配套措施？"],["薛部長瑞元：這當然會跟地方去做討論，不過我跟委員報告，我們今天所提的增加訪視率是有對象的，就是哪一類的個案就必須增加訪視率，原因是這樣子的，像這種惡意的保母做出這種令人髮指的行為，這種惡意若他要掩飾的話，相對是容易的，因為我們的社工可能都會相信人是善良的，但是如果有多重訪視的話，可能他就跑不掉。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。因為你們的檢討報告裡面也只是簡短的提到這句話，所以我想要表達的事情是，你們要再更細的、真正的訂出作業準則，不然你也會累死地方，因為人力根本不夠，甚至你可能也要考量要怎麼樣給地方資源。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然就是要有配套。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我才問這個問題，就是你們有沒有擬一些配套，這也是為什麼我們覺得今天這個檢討報告不夠完善，要予以退回的原因，因為這個東西就是太模糊了，所以我只是想要提醒部長，就這個部分，的確，我們要想辦法增加社工的量能或是他的待遇，當然也需要增加他的訪視率，也應該要更重質而不完全是重量，因為若是完全重量的話，你的人力不足，量能也不足，所以希望我們衛福部也可以針對這個部分，好好的把配套措施都準備好，下次再提交報告給大家。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後，部長，我們最近整理了社家署111年到113年的公務預算，發現社會福利基金預算中，雖然兒少相關的預算也不少，但是針對有狀況、受虐或是需要出養的兒童，相關經費好像不太夠也並不多，例如你們委辦計畫中的兒童及少年收養資訊中心業務計畫，每年大概是127萬左右，委辦內容當然大部分是社福機構團體保存及建立資訊，然後提供尋親、心理、醫療、法律等諮詢的轉介業務，當然還有包含其他的家外安置、短期治療等等，我是覺得這個經費是不是不太充裕呢？陳建仁院長在3月14號的時候有說要成立食安檢驗基金、預算，專款專用，一樣的，我在思考的事情是，我今天想要要求衛福部儘速啟動研議，把兒少保護業務獨立出來，也成立一個獨立的中央兒少保護基金，你覺得能否做到？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會跟行政院那邊來做請示，因為依照財政紀律法，如果要成立基金，就有一定的要求。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，這部分我會提案，今天也已經提案了，希望你們可以好好的跨黨派研議，這樣子的案件是不是可以用這樣的方式來處理，因為我覺得第一個，預算足夠之外，這樣子也可以更加透明、更加讓大家知道這個費用是用在哪裡。","再來，要跟部長討論社會安全網，去年底發生國中割頸案的事情，後來你們當然有一個結論，就是推動成立北部的少家法院這個消息……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是與司法院有關。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，沒錯，這個我知道，這個跟司法院有關，我們本來覺得這是一個好消息，但它最終是說：增補少年調查保護人力，所以成立北部的少家專業法院是刻不容緩的。可是我覺得很奇怪，為什麼它只重視北部，難道沒有中部、南部嗎？關於這樣的建議，我知道你們是有共同開會了，請問這是有經過衛福部的建議嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是屬於司法院的業務，我不知道它當時的決定為什麼是北部……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們沒有提供這方面的建議？"],["李次長麗芬：這個會議是行政院跟司法院一起開會，現在是司法院提出先做北部的兒少家事法院，接下來會再看是否要往中部或是南部設立。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，這個部分我特別提出來，是希望你們也能關注我們中部和南部的需求，因為這個事情不會只有發生在北部，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：也請你們把這個建議帶回給行政院跟司法院。","今天是問好問滿嘛！我就迅速提一下社安網的部分，最近我也想要另外跳脫剛剛、原本大家都在討論的這個相關案件，其實我想要補充的是，有關我們青少年的心理困擾，這幾年也是越來越嚴重，所以就2016年到2021年的資料顯示，15歲到30歲精神科相關診斷者從22萬人成長到29萬人，而且成長率也從4.8%成長到7%，所以整體成長率有到47%；WHO也把憂鬱症列為21世紀人類健康的頭號殺手，所以我想要講的事情是，衛福部你們去年有提出年輕族群心理健康支持方案，我覺得很棒，我也支持，但每人有三次的免費心理諮商，可是我們知道它很快就沒了，而且量能不足，所以想要請問，因為現在也正在編列114年的預算，想要請問這個部分有沒有可能，就是明年的次數量能從3次增加到至少6次呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們還需要再做進一步的評估，因為預算總還是有限的。"],["廖委員偉翔：但希望部長還是可以好好地評估，因為這個東西已經是社會大家很重視的，也是社會安全網很重要的一塊。","再來，社會安全網很重要的一塊就是社區心理衛生中心，目前共有48處，明年預計要有71處，請問明年是否可以如質完成？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會盡力，這是一個很明確的方向，我們大家很有信心可以達成。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後一個，就是在學校裡面，現在以大專院校來講，每1,200名的學生僅配1名的專業輔導人員，所以平均每個學生可能都要排隊1個月左右才有可能諮商得到，所以我想要請問，你們是否贊成把這個比例下修？"],["薛部長瑞元：是不是請教育部來回答？"],["主席：請教育部。"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們學生輔導法在去年已經進行檢討並提出修正案，大專院校是希望從1,200比1調降為900比1，目前這個修正案條文已經送行政院審查當中，等行政院審查結束之後，應該就會送立法院來做處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，我以上質詢完畢，今天的質詢是希望我們透過一個個案，雖然大家覺得這是一個個案，可是它也可能存在系統性的問題，所以希望不要從這個個案然後變成到處推諉卸責，我們應好好檢討並解決問題，不要讓個案變通案、通案變系統性的危機，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢。","接下來我們請楊曜委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.74971875,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.297843750000002,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.00596875,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.77159375,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.83471875,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.92284375,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.86284375000001,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.08159375000001,"end":83.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.38909375,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.02784375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.06159375,"end":101.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.22534375000001,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.30971875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.11096875000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.31409375,"end":163.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.41471875000002,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.25409375,"end":191.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.95034375,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.57034375,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.68221875,"end":209.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.34409375,"end":215.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.35596875000002,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.79721875,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.83096875,"end":231.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.08346875,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.29846875,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.16909375,"end":250.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.69221875000002,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.76721875000004,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.50971875,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.24284375,"end":264.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.48034375000003,"end":299.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.42721875,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.30596875000003,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.41096875,"end":330.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.01721875000004,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.69159375000004,"end":339.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.31971875000005,"end":345.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.42409375,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.15659375,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.00659375000004,"end":372.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.06534375,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.90159375,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.89721875000004,"end":432.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.44846875,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.24159375000005,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.55659375000005,"end":443.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.40034375000005,"end":453.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.37784375,"end":461.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.35159375,"end":459.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.27096875,"end":465.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.54471875,"end":472.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.45909375,"end":473.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.83034375000005,"end":480.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.00221875000005,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.03596875000005,"end":482.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.31846875,"end":482.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.36909375000005,"end":483.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.02721875000003,"end":484.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.35596875000005,"end":491.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.14409375,"end":491.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.59971875,"end":509.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.72409375,"end":506.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.97659375,"end":512.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.02721875000003,"end":510.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.3728437500001,"end":541.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.0222187500001,"end":515.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.1740937500001,"end":547.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.28284375,"end":553.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.53096875,"end":554.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.7122187500001,"end":555.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.2859687499999,"end":560.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.31534375,"end":556.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.5972187500001,"end":569.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.23721875,"end":574.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.60346875,"end":578.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.5947187500001,"end":580.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.2353437500001,"end":598.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.03534375,"end":593.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.82784375,"end":603.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.87346875,"end":603.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.9365937499999,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.64096875,"end":618.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.14096875,"end":642.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":642.7322187500001,"end":647.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.18721875,"end":650.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.4609687500001,"end":656.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":657.3459687500001,"end":663.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":664.04534375,"end":668.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":668.83784375,"end":672.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.75284375,"end":673.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.6472187500001,"end":676.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.7353437500001,"end":678.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.04721875,"end":696.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.36096875,"end":698.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.52971875,"end":696.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.06534375,"end":708.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.71346875,"end":713.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.0290937500001,"end":735.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":735.6797187500001,"end":736.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.70909375,"end":741.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.09221875,"end":779.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.92596875,"end":791.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.8059687500001,"end":801.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.13346875,"end":806.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":806.60534375,"end":817.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":817.86096875,"end":831.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.8628437500001,"end":835.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.4109687500002,"end":851.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":852.45471875,"end":853.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":853.28159375,"end":878.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":879.2690937500001,"end":886.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.4409687500001,"end":888.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.9553437500001,"end":898.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.3884687500001,"end":906.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":906.04971875,"end":916.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":916.8328437500002,"end":921.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.67596875,"end":922.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":922.89096875,"end":924.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.86534375,"end":958.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":959.3072187500002,"end":986.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":987.43784375,"end":993.3272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":993.09096875,"end":993.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":993.34409375,"end":993.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":993.4622187500001,"end":993.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":993.4790937500002,"end":993.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":993.49596875,"end":993.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":993.6984687500001,"end":1011.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1011.65346875,"end":1014.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1015.43346875,"end":1016.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1017.12096875,"end":1019.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1019.8884687500001,"end":1039.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1039.7840937500002,"end":1041.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1042.6865937500002,"end":1042.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1042.90596875,"end":1043.9690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1043.5134687500001,"end":1061.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1053.0984687500002,"end":1053.1153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1053.1322187500002,"end":1053.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1057.7559687500002,"end":1057.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1061.2490937500002,"end":1080.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1081.6847187500002,"end":1085.1440937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":18.133,"end":20.994,"text":"主席有請部長好有請部長"},{"start":25.034,"end":39.004,"text":"委員好部長好部長在這個檢討這個政府的責任之前因為我有看到一個更大的危機因為我覺得就是社安網正在瓦解中所以想要請教部長您認同嗎不太認同"},{"start":40.905,"end":69.667,"text":"不太認同,好為什麼我要這樣講我想要跟您說的就是部長社安網不只是政府社福單位或是案家更重要的還有我們全國一萬八千六百多名這是一百一十一年的資料一萬八千六百多名的社工的專業跟熱忱讓我們全國的社安網撐起來但這次的事件也有可能讓好不容易打造的社安網一夕間崩潰這是我的憂慮"},{"start":71.008,"end":83.278,"text":"也是為什麼我剛剛提到我覺得社安網正在瓦解的原因因為這次的事件也造成社工界的集體心理創傷請教部長這個部分您覺得要怎麼處理"},{"start":85.252,"end":105.31,"text":"兩個部分,第一個部分對於這個涉案的這個社工本身來講因為他到底是否是有刑事責任,這個是一件事情但是在處理的過程當中給他參考,這的確是非常的不妥第二個,其他的社工人員,我們是非常支持"},{"start":107.152,"end":134.389,"text":"我們不方便評論好 謝謝部長我要講的事情是針對這個結構性的問題社工界長期以來就是有這個三高、三缺以及一低的問題也就是我們的高風險、我們的高案量、高壓力然後缺督導、缺合作、缺資源以及偏低的薪資條件更別提之前常常有新聞媒體報導也有這種薪資回捐的漏息"},{"start":135.49,"end":158.295,"text":"並且也有研究指出社工系畢業生投入社工者大概是只有五成就業三年後近三成離開我們的社工圈留任者又有三成可能要離開這個社工專業所以我剛剛講的事情也不是針對這個個案因為畢竟這是一個社會事件那我們只是透過這個個案來看我們社會上這個系統上有沒有問題"},{"start":159.435,"end":187.358,"text":"所以看起來這個社工的留任困難已經是一個結構性的問題是不是可以這麼說啦可以這麼說齁所以部長我認為我們應該要想辦法來重振我們的社工的這個士氣因為這一環是我們社安網裡面非常重要的一環對那我想這有兩點可以努力的方向跟部長分享也請教部長有沒有其他的想法我想有兩點努力的方向分別是當然就是提高我們的薪資"},{"start":188.539,"end":189.66,"text":"剛剛委員提到兩點其實都非常正確"},{"start":215.424,"end":234.925,"text":"那第一個是這一個薪資能不能再繼續往上調這也是我們努力的方向這不過這還是要看這整體國家財政的狀況如何好那請謝謝那就請部長在這部分也多多的琢磨當然那另外一點就是提到他的形象的這部分的話"},{"start":235.626,"end":249.54,"text":"我覺得這幾年來對於社工的形象的提升應該是已經有一個程度了因為在稍早幾年大家連志工跟社工都分不清楚了"},{"start":251.059,"end":272.868,"text":"現在的話大概大家都了解社工就是社工而且社工他真的是肩負著非常重大部長謝謝喔拍著我懂你的意思但是我只是想說再加強這塊你們檢討完有沒有可以做更多的地方因為我們知道這個如果社工人員認同他社工專業生涯後他投入工作可以獲得成就感就比較不會產生職業的怠惰嘛"},{"start":273.408,"end":294.48,"text":"所以我其實這個問題我不是要您解釋過去有怎麼樣進展我是想說發生這個事件之後還有沒有你們覺得可以做得更好的地方更多的地方呢當然這永遠都有最努力的空間啦比方說剛剛提到薪資的這部分那這個就逐步要去依照我們能夠負擔的這個財政狀況去做這個提升啦"},{"start":299.488,"end":320.911,"text":"好 謝謝部長我聽起來是沒有對於這件這個專業認同可能要回去再思考在下一次開會或檢討會議有沒有比較具體可行的執行的行動方案要不然現在聽起來是比較模糊我們都知道往這一去可是可能要透過你們的專業還有你們跨部會的整合找出真正可以動作的這個執行方案那我也有去了解一下"},{"start":323.035,"end":342.746,"text":"這幾年都會有去了解一下這幾年有一些社工比如說私的社工他不太願意加入社安網他們有說為什麼因為他們說社安網的年資無法採認所以導致可能在這個經驗傳承上他過去的累積的經驗他現在轉到社安網裡好像不會被採認請問想要請教部長有這個事情嗎"},{"start":347.136,"end":372.361,"text":"應該不會有這個事情不過如果有這方面的一個問題的話我是希望就是說能夠直接跟衛福部這邊來對接我們瞭解真正問題是是好沒有問題那也請衛福部稍微再去了解一下有沒有這樣的狀況不然這個有經驗的社工如果沒有辦法傳承的話的確會讓這個新的社工折損率也很高也不利於我們社會安全網的部件那再來"},{"start":374.41,"end":394.552,"text":"部長你們昨天才提供這個虐童案的時序表雖然晚到但是總比不到來的好所以本席想要請教這個首次兒童權利國家公約報告的時候許多學者專家提到家外安置的狀況所以在會議上有總結提出這個機制是要以家庭為單位做進行"},{"start":396.013,"end":412.632,"text":"那這個2019年的社家署也針對這個評估的內容開啟了家外安置兒少替代性照顧資源強化計畫的推動與執行希望能夠協助各個縣市在地評估小組是安置兒少的不同需求"},{"start":414.293,"end":442.858,"text":"協助安置單位所需的支援也就是由縣市政府為首的在地評估小組在各地的兒、少安置中扮演一個中介的角色然後再邀請不同的專家例如早療、身體諮商、法務等等擔任委員讓這個兒、少的評估可以更全面的關照那部長過去出養是由這個衛福部委託的社福機構執行評估但這次的專家會議決定未來出養由地方政府評估嘛"},{"start":443.669,"end":471.687,"text":"那也想要問請問部長是否過去有發生過機構和寄養家庭間為了利益問題而糾纏不清所以才要這樣修改沒有這是這一次我們發現的這個問題我們決定就一定要做這方面的修改因為每一個機構去統包一條龍的話的確容易發生問題是那部長未來出養決定是否也應該納入在地評估小組以及這個TBM也就是團體決策會議"},{"start":473.496,"end":477.578,"text":"其實剛剛提到的 委員提到這一點的話是不必等到那個兒權法的修正"},{"start":492.236,"end":508.929,"text":"至於委員問到說額群法的立法的一個進度的話那現在大概還在衛福部裡面因為我們這一次會有兩個法同時來進行一個是額群法一個是托育服務法、托育的專法這兩個會同時進行"},{"start":512.412,"end":516.935,"text":"好 沒問題 請部長再繼續努力好 部長 那針對這個聶桐案件的致死案件上週三也有很多的縣市各個的社工團體發出聲明就是強烈譴責我們的主責主管機關也就是衛福部"},{"start":529.423,"end":546.939,"text":"沒有依照社政單位而效保護案件通報處理調查及處遇服務作業程序的規定在重大額內案件發生的30天內要完成這個調查報告請教部長是什麼原因讓您覺得可以不開會言商不做檢討報告"},{"start":548.36,"end":567.844,"text":"是因為當初我有看到新聞您說是因為小孩已經死了就可以不用開嗎?我沒有這樣講根本報告齁其實從那個處理事件的流程是第一方要做通報這是第一點第二個地方就要去做檢討的會議開這個檢討會議在10天之內檢討會議之後兩週之內要把檢討報告給衛福部"},{"start":576.824,"end":603.435,"text":"所以您的意思是說30天沒有完成報告是因為地方政府沒有開嗎?中央是沒有說一定要去開這個檢討會議的是地方一定要開地方把這個檢討報告送過來之後的話我們如果發現說這中間是可能有問題我們才去開然後請地方來說明所以這個程序的規定不包含衛福部需要在30天內就是完成這個調查報告應該沒有這個"},{"start":605.697,"end":618.165,"text":"因為您這樣的說法很像是司法調查沒有問題但是我們的主責單位沒有職責去了解整個流程過程當中有沒有一些行政上面的需要改進的地方"},{"start":619.195,"end":642.465,"text":"因為這才是重點因為依規定我是覺得該檢討就要檢討但是沒有檢討現在亡羊補牢後面開了這個專家會議那當然其中還有一項你們提到說要求增加這個訪視率問題是現在各個縣市政府也都是有缺社工的情況請問衛福部要怎麼達成這個目標有沒有任何的配套措施"},{"start":643.206,"end":662.766,"text":"這當然會跟地方去做討論不過跟委員報告我們今天所提的這個增加紡織率是有對象的就是哪一類的個案就必須要增加紡織率它原因是這樣子像這種惡意的保母做出這種令人髮指的這種行為"},{"start":664.734,"end":678.272,"text":"這種惡意他要掩飾的話是相對是容易的因為我們的社工可能都相信說人是善良的但是如果有多重的反噬的話那可能他就跑不掉"},{"start":679.61,"end":695.785,"text":"社會福利部長因為你們的這個檢討報告裡面也是簡短的只提到這句話所以我想要表達的事情是你們要再更細的去去針對去把定出這個作業準則不然你也會累死地方也根本不夠的人力甚至是你可能要考量要怎麼樣給地方資源"},{"start":697.026,"end":713.141,"text":"對 當然就是要配套對 甚至就是所謂的所以我才問這個問題是說你們有沒有擬寫配套這也是為什麼我們覺得這個今天的檢討報告不夠完善我們要退回的原因因為這個東西就是太模糊了所以我只是想要提醒部長是說這個部分的確"},{"start":714.102,"end":714.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":736.752,"end":756.711,"text":"那再來最後就是在後面還有我想要說部長我們最近整理了三年社家屬的公務預算在這個111年到113年的社會福利基金的預算發現看似兒少相關的預算也不少但是針對這種有狀況受虐或是需要出養的兒童這個經費好像不太夠也並不多"},{"start":759.053,"end":779.392,"text":"例如你們委辦計畫中的這個兒童及少年收養中心資訊業務計畫每年大概是127萬左右委辦內容當然大部分是社福機構團體保存及建立這個資訊提供尋親、心理、醫療、法律等諮詢的轉介業務當然還有其他的包含家外安置、短期治療等等"},{"start":780.773,"end":806.11,"text":"這個我是覺得這個經費是不是不太充裕那陳建仁院長也有在3月14號的時候說要成立這個食安檢查的負責的這個基金預算專款專用那我想一樣的我在思考事情是不是我今天想要要求衛福部是不是儘速的啟動研議把兒少保護業務的基金業務獨立出來這個也要成立一個獨立的中央兒少保護基金你覺得能否做到"},{"start":807.671,"end":831.63,"text":"這個我們會跟行政那邊來做請示因為依照財政紀律法的話如果要成立基金的話就有一定的要求是沒關係部長這部分我會提案今天也已經提案了希望說你們可以好好的跨黨派研議這樣子的案件是不是可以用這樣的處理因為我覺得第一個預算足夠之外這樣子也可以更加透明更加讓大家知道說把這個費用用在哪裡"},{"start":832.915,"end":841.831,"text":"那最後再來就是有反映這個跟部長也討論有關社會安全網中去年底這個發生國中割井案的事情"},{"start":842.608,"end":863.584,"text":"那後來你們當然有一個結論我們看到一開始也覺得有一個結論就是推動成立北部的少家法院這個消息司法院對沒錯這個我知道這個跟司法院是有關但是我們本來是覺得是一個好消息但是最終我們認為說他說真樸少年調查保護人力不足所以"},{"start":864.284,"end":877.823,"text":"成立北部的校家專業法院這是刻不容緩可是我這裡覺得很奇怪為什麼他只重視北部難道沒有中部、南部嗎那這樣的建議我知道你們是有共同開會的喔那這樣是有透過你們的建議是有經過衛福部的建議嗎"},{"start":879.601,"end":893.96,"text":"我想這個是屬於司法院的業務我不知道他當時的一個決定為什麼是北部所以你們沒有提供這方面的建議這個會議行政院跟司法院有一起開會"},{"start":894.941,"end":916.013,"text":"那現在是司法院先提出先做北部的兒少家庭加司法院那接下來會再看說是否要往中部或是南部設立是那這個部分我特別提出來是希望你們也關注我們中部和南部的需求因為這個事情不會只有發生在北部好不好那也請你們回去把這個建議帶回行政院跟司法院"},{"start":916.909,"end":935.777,"text":"那再來我也想要今天是問好問滿嘛對不對我迅速最後最後好不好這個社安網的部分最近我也想要另外跳脫剛剛原本大家都在討論這個相關的案件其實我想要補充的事情就是最近有關我們青少年心理困擾這幾年也是越來越嚴重"},{"start":936.937,"end":938.858,"text":"WHO也把憂鬱症列為21世紀人類健康的頭號殺手"},{"start":959.403,"end":986.489,"text":"所以我想要講的事情是我想要請衛福部喔你們去年有提出這個年輕族群心理健康支持方案我覺得很棒那我也支持可是每人有三次的這個免費心理諮商可是我們知道他很快就沒了而且量能不足喔所以想要請問因為現在也正在編列這個114年的預算想要請問這個部分有沒有可能把明年的這個次數量能增加到從三次增加到至少六次呢"},{"start":987.895,"end":1011.256,"text":"這我們還需要再進一步評估因為總是預算還是有限的但是希望部長可以好好評估因為這個東西已經是社會大家的很重要也是社會安全網很重要的一塊那再來社會安全網很重要的一塊就是這個社區心理衛生中心目前是有48處到明年預計要71處請問明年是否會可以如值完成"},{"start":1011.836,"end":1039.271,"text":"我們會盡力啦這是一個很明確的一個方向我們大概有信心可以來達成好那最後一個就是學校裡面現在以大專院校來講每1200名的學生僅配一名的這個專業輔導人員而且所以平均每個學生可能都要一個月才有可能諮商的到排隊才有諮商的到所以我想要請問你們是否可以贊成下修把這個比例下修"},{"start":1039.91,"end":1043.472,"text":"教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":1061.303,"end":1080.152,"text":"OK好那我以上質詢完畢那希望喔今天質詢是希望說我們透過一個個案雖然大家說他覺得是個個案可是他也可能存在的系統裡面的問題所以希望不要從個案然後到處推諉謝責我們好好檢討解決問題不要讓個案變通案通案變系統性的危機好謝謝大家好我們謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a1485d33db424b8ea25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a617b6f3aed10b788e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"14:02:58 - 14:14:37","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":699,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:14:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T14:02:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.82721875,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.94409375,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.12909375,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.83784375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.49971875,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":31.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.570343750000003,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.438468750000006,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.17096875,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.39534375000001,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.56784375000001,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.55909375,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.68534375,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.61721875,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.43971875000001,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.08471875000001,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.16909375,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.27034375000001,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.40534375,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.48096875,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.66659375,"end":90.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.72096875000001,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.73784375000001,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.44659375,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.41659375,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.93534375,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.72409375000001,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.68596875,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.34721875000001,"end":110.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.34284375,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.15409375000002,"end":131.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.70659375,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.28784375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.35471875000002,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.59471875,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.21034375000002,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.41909375,"end":170.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.49784375000002,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.58159375000002,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.23784375000002,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.48346875000001,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.08221875,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.57159375,"end":241.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.73159375,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.52471875,"end":272.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.35534375000003,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.51534375,"end":281.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.86034375,"end":285.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.55596875000003,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.68721875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.00659375000004,"end":318.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.22159375,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.28159375,"end":341.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.83409375,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.13721875000005,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.28471875,"end":348.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.97221875,"end":351.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.47409375,"end":350.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.45284375,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.46971875,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.48659375,"end":351.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.82409375000003,"end":361.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.85221875,"end":365.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.81346875,"end":366.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.11284375,"end":373.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.91409375,"end":370.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":370.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.76159375000003,"end":389.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.53534375000004,"end":393.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.92721875,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.77471875000003,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.39471875000004,"end":409.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.42409375000005,"end":401.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.97534375000004,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.93659375000004,"end":419.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":433.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.22971875,"end":429.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.51159375000003,"end":438.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.62471875000006,"end":444.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.48034375000003,"end":446.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.38721875000005,"end":454.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.10346875000005,"end":465.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.33784375000005,"end":483.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.66409375,"end":485.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.55846875000003,"end":491.51534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.98784375,"end":495.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.44721875000005,"end":498.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.46784375000004,"end":526.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.8347187500001,"end":550.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.9153437500001,"end":552.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.34534375,"end":556.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.1084687499999,"end":558.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.82971875,"end":572.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.1397187499999,"end":579.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.37909375,"end":582.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.18034375,"end":585.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.81284375,"end":590.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.92596875,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.5359687499999,"end":611.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.28971875,"end":615.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.79971875,"end":665.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.4965937500001,"end":666.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.09971875,"end":667.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.1459687500001,"end":669.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.4240937500001,"end":693.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.81284375,"end":694.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.23471875,"end":696.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.52971875,"end":699.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.88784375,"end":699.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":23.75,"text":"進行諮詢謝謝主席 有請部長好 請薛部長部長好部長您應該聽過原家中心對它的全名是原住民族家庭服務中心是"},{"start":25.451,"end":48.081,"text":"這個園家中心它是園民會所設置的已經設置26年而且現在都會加園鄉已經有64處的園家中心那過去還沒有被納入社會安全網的時候其實大家都會說園家中心跟社安網的關係叫做網中網"},{"start":49.241,"end":75.638,"text":"因為他設立的一個目標就是要去針對我們部落原住民福利資訊跟資源整合不足所形成的障礙那些被漏接的地方像危險管沒燒的地方他等於是在部落去擔負起這樣的一個責任首先我要特別感謝衛福部因為過去由原民會來設置其實經費很拮据很辛苦"},{"start":77.799,"end":100.35,"text":"那謝謝,我們是預定在2025年要納入社安網對不對?應該是明年吧今年會先納入今年是送到行政院了嗎?對那已經合訂了嗎?還沒還沒合訂,那目前在衛福部嗎?送到行政院已經送進行政院了嗎?還沒"},{"start":103.132,"end":129.038,"text":"還在修正計畫嗎?好那今天我來就是要來去做一些提醒為什麼?因為我今天我看到我們的專報裡面有社安網第二期計畫112年針對今年度的資源不見情形重要推動成果策進作為我都沒有看見關於原家中心轉型納入社安網的一個說明那我為什麼要這樣講因為"},{"start":131.832,"end":147.305,"text":"其實有很多的母機構 很多的原家中心的督導 很多的社工的這些教授專家還有這一些關心的人 他們跟我陳情很久了"},{"start":148.286,"end":161.509,"text":"因為他們很高興大家都高興原家中心終於要納入社安網不但經費可以變多人力的配置應該也會變多我們都很高興但是大家憂心的是什麼"},{"start":162.509,"end":180.209,"text":"人心惶惶聽說會不會納入到縣市政府底下那這個就很需要跟大家來做說明部長您曾經待過地方政府我們的屏東有9個原鄉你做過那裡的衛生局長你應該很了解"},{"start":181.03,"end":208.417,"text":"我們做原建法其實最重要的納入的精神就是文化安全文化敏感度很重要那如果我們納入一般縣市政府的體制下他會變成說他的工作模式像一般在社福中心然後針對那些脆弱家庭然後比較針對個案開案可是呢原家中心這二三十年他在地方你應該很了解他是在部落"},{"start":209.537,"end":238.607,"text":"他是整個部落的關係他不會針對個案他會知道個案在部落裡面他跟親友的關係然後他擔負一個很重要的使命對於很多我們的政策福利的政策也好他都可以用在地的語言親近的語言去代表政府來去做這些宣導所以他這樣的一個工作模式我們就是比較要提醒因為目前問原民會也好"},{"start":239.616,"end":261.584,"text":"他大概只有報經費報大原則可是完全都看不出他未來的工作模式到底是怎麼樣所以大家都很擔心害怕所以至少我們會知道說必須要維持他的文化性跟他的主體性因為大家都說我們這些年好不容易我們在回頭找部落的照顧模式"},{"start":262.304,"end":271.962,"text":"可是如果制度國家的制度一進來介入又把他破壞掉這個是大家憂心的還有他的開案指標的訂定"},{"start":273.39,"end":298.356,"text":"他到底他的KPI怎麼樣還有他社工人力的配置那轉型的之後他的職能教育訓練怎麼做等等我在這個地方就是想要請衛福部幫忙一下因為很多人關心而且呢看不到看不見也沒有一個具體的說明所以我就代為在這個地方提出這樣的提醒那因為目前是修正嘛"},{"start":298.936,"end":304.257,"text":"兩週內去回答當然是可以但是這回答可能不完全為什麼因為現在方向上面就是要把原家中心納入到社安網出去這個是決定"},{"start":325.043,"end":325.423,"text":"因為你們是審查單位"},{"start":343.07,"end":346.432,"text":"所以你們的意思就是說會完全尊重原民會所提出來的規劃"},{"start":367.308,"end":387.884,"text":"阿最後是行政院那邊去做決定內容是由行政院來做決定這是第二點那第三點的話那委員提到說這樣會不會干擾到這一個原來的那說這個社安網說交給縣市政府是因為現在這整個的系統如果要納進來的話這裡面"},{"start":390.606,"end":408.845,"text":"就變成他是一個社福中心的角色那社福中心他有公權力行使的問題那你如果說現在當然原價中心所以這個就是我們要提醒的地方對啊但是沒有辦法你如果要有公權力行使的話你必須要具備公權力行使的資格"},{"start":410.69,"end":433.67,"text":"這是沒有辦法,所以不能說我要希望說能夠有好處﹖那部長,這個就是我下一個部分要講的問題因為我們就知道會有這樣的原因,就是說按照規定按照規定我舉一個例子齁,因為今天是來討論嘛那我就講這個凱凱事件,我以原住民來講齁,這是真實的案例啦"},{"start":434.852,"end":445.587,"text":"這個孩子呢109年10月出生那目前是4歲那他的父母因為養不起所以他的孩子就分別交給不同的親戚那這個親戚呢"},{"start":447.472,"end":465.457,"text":"他在凱凱出生幾個月的時候他就帶回去照顧一直到今天可是等到這個孩子不是凱凱我口誤但是這個孩子他3歲的時候他就決定要做收養也去跟法院申請要收養"},{"start":466.437,"end":483.651,"text":"但是呢地方法院回覆他就是要按照一個收出養的這個辦法所以這個兒少收養認可的調查法是評估報告好結果呢他呢建議他要去做機構的媒合"},{"start":484.721,"end":510.17,"text":"可是他說他這個兩次去跟這個媒合中心聯繫他最後他覺得他沒有辦法因為他是六親等以外他是六親等以外所以被駁回那又後來呢媒合中心說要到媒合中心可是他知道媒合中心不會配給他所以呢他又希望地方法院判給他可是目前就是第二次駁回"},{"start":511.591,"end":524.827,"text":"還是一樣法院上面載明寫著還是要依照兒少法的規定就是第16條因為他沒有符合那現在我就是要跟您說這個就是很麻煩的地方因為他是布農族這個布農族"},{"start":526.989,"end":551.79,"text":"他們是一個家族、氏族的一個概念我浪費一點點時間跟您說明一下每一個族群他都有不同的照顧模式那這個布農族他們是這樣他們是同一個家族可以分散到臺東、南投、高雄可是部長我跟您說當他們殺豬的時候他們同一個家名叫Dakis William這個家族他就算殺豬的時候"},{"start":553.391,"end":571.937,"text":"他是高雄人他要分到台東的親人分到南投的親人跟他隔壁的鄰居不是同一個家族就算是隔壁鄰居也分不到豬肉他們是這樣子去確保他們的親屬關係那我現在要說的就是這個的確是他的家人"},{"start":573.728,"end":589.901,"text":"這個小孩的媽媽跟這個收養人他們的曾祖父曾祖母是親兄妹但是跟這個孩子就七親等就脫離了我們法制規定的六親等那現在偏偏要弄一個收出養的評估報告"},{"start":591.004,"end":609.136,"text":"那我就是希望說我們現在原件法都已經納入文化安全的概念是不是我們這個收出養的評估報告也要有文化安全的概念啊要修一下嘛至少要跟那些人講嘛是不是然後另外就是要檢討這個媒合機制為什麼這個家長很生氣"},{"start":612.378,"end":626.763,"text":"他說兩次都叫他要去跟媒合中心聯繫他就不要啊那我寧可不要我繼續照顧好了就算這個孩子沒有登記在我名下反正我就照顧到他長大他怎麼會願意孩子去給外面的人帶呢"},{"start":627.663,"end":642.88,"text":"可是按照法規就不行而且在部落裡面這些親戚是整個部落一起養這個孩子也不會出現問題所以我在這邊就是希望說這個部分我們原建法已經有納入文化安全所以呢我覺得該修的地方"},{"start":643.3,"end":667.256,"text":"就是檢討媒合的機制要有族群的一個概念進來收出養的評估報告也希望去做一個檢討好不好那所以因為時間到我是希望說第一個我希望衛福部就會同原民會啦兩週內就是將原家中心納入社安網提出一個衝擊影響評估報告過去的母機構陪伴二三十年怎麼辦"},{"start":668.657,"end":693.492,"text":"阿為了一個公權力這個是國家的制度我要講的就是這個其實每一個族群都有他不同的一個照顧模式我覺得我們要尊重如果我們一直在硬邦邦的法制底下去思考問題我們會把好不容易建立起來的東西又破壞掉那也希望這個報告裡面針對人力配置經費編制工作模式我希望兩週內就一起提出報告好不好"},{"start":694.332,"end":694.654,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a2e87720c49b6482325cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6b0f568547c5b28c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:45:34 - 14:02:44","影片長度":"00:17:10","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1030,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:02:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:45:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1568,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，部長辛苦了！但我還是要講，從食安一直到社安的問題，我都儘量善意提醒，展現魄力，立即應變，錯誤修正，然後事權要統一啦！督導跟執行兩造的情況之下，有時候會因為一個案件之後搞得非常地模糊，這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為，所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對。包含食安，我覺得該懲處的單位或是對象都必須接受懲處，因為過去食安的問題，過去兒虐的問題，都不是現在才發生，過去修正的相關法律及訂定的相關制度，基本上應該都要能夠接受這樣的考驗，但是顯然這一次好像又漏洞百出，那我是從早上一直到現在，還有這幾天看了一些資料，我有幾件事情跟部長來做討論，也讓部長做參考。","很多人都說這一次又是社會安全網破洞，我個人倒不是這麼認為，在社會安全網裡面，我們有很多的法律、資源、機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全地成長，但是因為人為的因素，沒有能夠及時啟動跟做相關連結的時候，導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面，他卻受到最痛苦的折磨。第一個時間我們去接住了，也沒有漏接啊！怎麼會讓他在我們公部門認定為安全網的範圍裡面，反而他是得到極盡地虐待，我們卻渾然不知，都要到事後才知道這樣的情況？這顯然是一個非常嚴重的問題，所以政府存在的目的，然後建立了這麼多的機制，過去的慘痛經驗，怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情？而且也不是政府主動去發覺，不是政府任何一個單位、任何一個機關去發覺的，我覺得這個事情真的非常需要好好地檢討，這是第一點。","第二點，第一個時間接住了，有新北市政府，有臺北市政府，有兒福機構，大家怎麼會覺得把他安置好了就鬆懈掉了，就沒事了？這是很奇怪的行為。衛福部在109年推動所謂的幼兒專責醫師制度，只要是脆弱家庭，今天很多委員都有提到，我看了細節應該是這樣，脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象，然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局，但這名受虐的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動，對不對？完全沒有啟動這個幼兒專責醫師制度，甚至於早上的時候，在內政委員會有某位委員問了警政署署長，有接獲這個案件的通報嗎？也沒有，所以從社政到衛政到警政，到底什麼環節出問題，部長應該有掌握了吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["劉委員建國：這是一件事情。第二件事情，我們是依據行政院哦！當時為什麼會制定這個？107年2月26日核定強化社會安全網計畫內容，脆弱家庭的定義很清楚，這邊都寫得很清楚，我就不再贅述，最後一句話非常重要，「而需多重支持與服務介入的家庭」，我現在講的這兩個單位統統不知道，渾然不知這個事情，這次是離譜極致耶！哪一個環節出問題？你們的檢討報告裡面，有針對這個部分提出來嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["劉委員建國：這是第二件事情。第三件事情，我們再看，因為這個白紙黑字寫得很清楚，根據媒體的報導可以知道，小朋友的生母在2021年因為妨礙自由跟持有毒品，被收押看守所，當時懷有5個月身孕。2022年，隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影。2023年6月被法院通緝。這有三個時間點，這三個時間點，警政、衛政都有連結到嗎？如果沒有連結到，出了什麼問題？這個有檢討嗎？這是第三件事情。","最後一個問題，新北市或臺北市的兒福只要一個單位，就算是在去年6月發布通緝時，有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的憾事嘛！應該是這樣，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：最後，我想人原本就不是神，一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後，大家一起來看顧這個小朋友，不管是從社工、醫師、老師、村里長甚至警政，多方來看，我覺得這個事情就不會發生嘛！所以哪一個環節出問題，坦白講，我從早上到現在，我很仔細聽部長、署長的回應，我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點，請回應，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，哪一個環節出了問題，其實是有多個環節都出了問題。"],["劉委員建國：很多的環節都出了問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別提出來。","委員剛剛問到的問題，其實第一個，這個社福中心，也就是新北市它的社福中心在接受這個家庭，包括一開始他的母親懷孕，因為在看守所，所以她就表示想要把小孩子出養，但是後來她生下來之後，這個媽媽就不見了，所以社福中心的工作人員就把整個精力放在怎麼樣完成收養，他就一直去找這個祖母協調，說要改定監護人，因為收養必須要有監護人同意，所以他整個工作重點變成放在那個地方，忘了真正要處理的其實是小孩子。","小孩子的問題是當務之急，是最重要的一件事情，但是新北市社福中心去處理的卻是收養相關的同意權問題，所以他把小孩子的照顧一下子就丟給兒福聯盟，等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了，這一個環節是新北市這邊，到現在為止，新北市也還沒結案耶！小孩子都過世那麼久了，新北市這個案子還沒結案，所以這裡出來的第一個問題就是地方政府在處理類似工作的時候，沒有把重點放對，重點是要保護小孩子，重點不是要去取得同意，因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳的照顧，這個也沒有評估啊！這是第一點。第二點的話……"],["劉委員建國：部長，請說快一點，有時間的問題。抱歉，我儘量……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為委員的指責……"],["主席：今天有多給委員時間。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二點，兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候也沒有做很好的評估。第一階段本來是媽媽要委託，當時就結案；後來祖母得到監護權，她仍然希望要出養，所以社會局就找兒福聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置問題。","第二個問題就是因為在這個過程當中，他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保姆，幫她照顧了一年，這一年當中沒有什麼問題，但是兒福聯盟接手之後，卻把這個小孩子從原來保姆的手中移開，交給另外一個縣市的保姆照顧，這樣子的行為就非常奇怪。"],["劉委員建國：對，為什麼會有這樣的行為發生？我就是要聽部長講這一段。為什麼會這樣？為什麼沒有遵照原有的監護人意念希望讓舊的保姆來繼續來照顧這個小朋友？為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就是這樣子，這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到。因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構，第一個，它沒有自己經營的照護機構。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：也沒有自己經營的寄養家庭。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：也沒有自己的保姆，所以它就必須要跟一些保姆合作。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：對於這種合作模式，兒福聯盟自己認為不是契約關係，所以它不想或者是沒有能力對於保姆進行監督管理，在這樣的情形之下，原來的保姆費用一個月要3萬元，後來轉過去的保姆費用一個月是2萬5千元，這中間這些費用是由兒福聯盟出錢。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是一個問題，我們未來就要切掉這個部分。"],["劉委員建國：所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品？誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是這個原因。"],["劉委員建國：你現在講的內容，我聽起來就這個樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是這個原因，但這是一個可能的原因。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：是可能的動機，所以我們現在就把這個部分切掉，我們現在要求地方來做這件事情，地方本來就有委託安置的系統，所以就由地方決定將小孩子送到哪裡去，就在地方的系統裡。因為地方政府會定期或者有機制地對系統做monitor，去監督裡面的執行狀況是什麼樣子，所以這個部分也是我們未來要檢討改善的一個重要機制。"],["劉委員建國：所以今天發生小朋友的生命不見了，坦白講就是個命案。所以間接不尊重監護人的意願，然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆，這算不算間接殺人？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不敢這樣講。"],["劉委員建國：這是其一。其二，為什麼可以這樣的不尊重原監護人？而且已經由原保姆照顧一年多了，這樣建立起來的信賴關係竟然可以否決，只因為3萬元到2萬5千元之間的差異？我們的政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是因為這個差異而引起。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，我當然是在跟部長討論，因為我聽你講的過程裡感覺原因應該就是這樣而已，簡單講就是這樣，我不是要把它簡化。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我要把這個可能的原因切斷，以後不要再發生這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：我知道部長在12月的時候召開專案會議有6點的結論，第一個結論就這麼講了，未來如有出養必要，不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養後訪視工作全部交給民間團體來執行，對不對？這是你們的第一點結論，你覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：前面對啦！後面應該不是對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是至少要做到的啦！至少要做到。"],["劉委員建國：你看嘛！我們等到這事情發生才驚覺不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養後訪視工作全部交給民間團體，我問句話，只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎？還有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得這樣子不妥。在兒權法目前進行修法的過程當中，我們已經有提出問題，但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟一些地方政府反對這樣做，他們還是覺得維持現狀比較好。OK，現在事情發生了，所以我想，在過去修法當中，反對把事情由單純一個民間團體統包的概念，以及將中間有一些必須要決定的事情移到政府機關，是必要的。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：未來在修法的時候，我們也希望委員能夠支持這樣子的做法。"],["劉委員建國：OK，我們也可以請召委來安排擴大的全國各縣市會議嘛！對不對？看哪幾個縣市在反對嘛！從什麼時候開始反對一直到現在，出了這事情看它還要不要持續反對嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是跟這個事件有關。"],["劉委員建國：對，沒有錯啊！應該可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是說反對的縣市就跟這個事件有關。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！就當場在這邊講啊！就會很清楚嘛！另外一件事情，我剛剛一直強調問道只有這些不能而已嗎？請部長看一個資料，這是慈濟大學社工系的一個副教授所講，瑞典、丹麥、荷蘭等國，在申請收養部分是由政府把關，由政府接受收養人申請、完整審查及調查事宜，並提供親職準備課程及核發準收養人收養許可，相關的課程內容及品質、資格審查的標準都一致，不會有機構落差。","而臺灣目前是由各收養的機構自行安排課程，以致申請收養者必須到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程，同時，收出養媒合的機構評估標準不一，整個收養的服務價格也存在落差。怎樣落差你們都知道吧？兒福好像10萬元嘛！對不對？還有其他縣市，我就不寫了啦！有12萬元、10萬1,000元、也有7萬元的服務價差，怎麼會這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這也是這一次修法，我們希望……"],["劉委員建國：這次修法？這種狀況有沒有在你這次修法討論的重點裡？"],["李次長麗芬：已經納進去了。"],["薛部長瑞元：已經有納進來。"],["劉委員建國：已經有納進來？在6點裡面有嗎？沒有啦！"],["李次長麗芬：兒少權法的修法。"],["薛部長瑞元：在討論草案的時候，我們已經有把這一點放進來了。"],["劉委員建國：在你們的報告中還有講到一點，因為今天報告被退回去了嘛！但我還是有翻了幾頁，針對通盤報告中第一點，為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突，未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李次長麗芬：這個修法也有。"],["薛部長瑞元：就是剛剛講到的，有一些……"],["劉委員建國：這樣的評估會不會又形成22個縣市不一樣的標準？"],["薛部長瑞元：對於要評估什麼樣的內容，我們當然會建立統一的標準，個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣。"],["劉委員建國：是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準？是建立嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：立足的立嘛！對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛講的這幾點，好不好？因為時間也過了一些了，我提供了幾個點，我希望從部長這邊做起，可以更加重視，是不是也可以列在你們的檢討報告裡面，做個具體的回應？好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：至於要開擴大會議，我覺得勢在必行，越快越好。王召委願意排最好，對不對？如果沒有，看要再找誰趕快召開，我們來參與。看是什麼狀況，大家一起面對、共同討論解決，可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢，有關兒少權法的修法，請衛福部加快腳步，把相關的法案送進衛環委員會來審議。","接下來我們請伍麗華委員進行質詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14點3分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。您應該聽過原家中心吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它的全名是原住民族家庭服務中心，這個原家中心是由原民會所設置。已經設置26年，而且現在都會加原鄉已經有64處的原家中心。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：過去原家中心還沒有被納入社會安全網的時候，其實大家都會說原家中心跟社安網的關係叫做網中網，因為它設立的目標，就是要針對我們部落原住民福利資訊跟資源整合不足所形成的障礙，那些被漏接的地方、像微血管末稍的地方，等於是在部落擔負起這樣的責任。首先我要特別感謝衛福部，因為過去由原民會來設置，其實經費很拮据、很辛苦，特別在此感謝。我們是預定在2025年要納入社安網，對不對？"],["簡署長慧娟：今年會先納入。"],["薛部長瑞元：今年先納入。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今年送到行政院了嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：已經核定了嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：還沒。"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還沒核定，那目前在衛福部嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：已經送到行政院了……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：已經送進行政院了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒，修正計畫還沒送……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還在修正計畫嗎？那今天我來就是要做一些提醒，為什麼？因為今天我看到專報裡面有社安網第2期計畫112年、針對今年度的資源布建情形、重要推動成果、策進作為，但我都沒有看見關於原家中心轉型納入社安網的說明。我為什麼要這樣講？因為其實有很多的母機構，很多原家中心的督導，以及很多社工的教授專家，還有這些關心的人，他們跟我陳情很久了，因為他們很高興，大家都高興，原家中心終於要納入社安網，不但經費可以變多，人力的配置應該也會變多，我們都很高興。但是大家憂心的是什麼？人心惶惶，聽說會不會納入到縣市政府底下？這個就很需要跟大家做說明。","部長曾經待過地方政府，屏東有9個原鄉，你做過那裡的衛生局長，你應該很了解，我們設立原健法其實最重要納入的精神就是文化安全，文化敏感度很重要，如果我們納入一般縣市政府的體制下，其工作模式會變成是像一般在社福中心，然後針對那些脆弱家庭，比較針對個案、開案，可是原家中心這二、三十年在地方，部長應該很了解，它是在部落，它是整個部落的關係，它不會針對個案，它會知道個案在部落裡面跟親友的關係，然後它會擔負一個很重要的使命，對於很多政策，包括福利政策也好，他們都可以用在地的語言、親近的語言去代表政府來做這些宣導。像這樣的工作模式，我們會比較想要提醒，因為目前問原民會也好，大概只有報經費和報大原則，可是完全都看不出未來的工作模式到底是怎麼樣，大家都很擔心害怕。所以至少我們要知道必須維持它的文化性跟主體性，因為大家都說，這些年好不容易我們在回頭找部落的照顧模式，可是如果國家的制度一進來介入，又會把它給破壞掉，這是大家憂心的。另外是有關開案指標的訂定，到底KPI怎麼樣，還有社工人力的配置，以及轉型之後的職能教育訓練怎麼做等等。我在此想要請衛福部幫忙一下，因為很多人關心，而且看不到、看不見，也沒有具體的說明，所以我就代為在這個地方提出這樣的提醒。因為目前是修正，還沒有送院，所以是不是可以針對我以上所提出來這些代表性的憂慮，在兩週內提出詳細的回答，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，兩週內回答當然是可以，但是這回答可能不完全，因為現在方向上就是要把原家中心納入社安網裡面，這個是絕對的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，大家也都樂見其成。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個，原家中心納入之後要怎麼樣去做處理，這整個設計是在原民會，所以我們要看原民會的設計是如何。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為你們是審查單位啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們部會之間不會去做特別的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們要他們提修正計畫是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是我們就放進去，然後交給行政院去做審查，所以我們是把各部會的意見，就是他們想要如何做的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們的意思就是會完全尊重原民會所提出來的規劃？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，最後是行政院那邊去做決定，內容是由行政院來做決定，這是第二點。","第三點，委員提到這樣會不會干擾到原來的，就是把社安網交給縣市政府是不是……因為現在這整個系統如果要納進來，這裡面就變成它是社福中心的角色，社福中心有公權力行使的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在當然原家中心……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個就是我們要提醒的地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是沒有辦法，你如果要有公權力行使的話，你必須要具備公權力行使的資格，這是沒有辦法的，所以不能說我希望要能夠有好處……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，這就是我下一個部分要講的問題。我們就知道會有這樣的原因，就是要按照規定、按照規定，我舉一個例子，因為今天是來討論，那我就講剴剴事件，我以原住民來講，這是真實的案例。這個孩子在109年10月出生，目前是4歲，他的父母因為養不起，所以把孩子分別交給不同的親戚，這個親戚在剴剴出生幾個月的時候就帶回去照顧，一直到今天。我口誤了，這個孩子不是剴剴。但是當這個孩子3歲的時候，這個照顧的親戚就決定要收養，就去跟法院申請要收養，但是地方法院回復他要按照收出養的辦法，就是兒少收養認可案件調查訪視評估報告，所以建議他要去做機構的媒合，可是他說他兩次去跟媒合中心聯繫，最後他覺得他沒有辦法，因為他是六親等以外，所以被駁回。後來說要到媒合中心，可是他知道媒合中心不會把孩子配給他，而他希望地方法院判給他，可是目前是第二次駁回，法院還是一樣載明寫著還是要依照兒少法的規定，也就是他沒有符合第十六條。","現在我就是要跟部長說，這就是很麻煩的地方，因為他是布農族，布農族是一個家族、氏族的一個概念。我浪費一點點時間跟您說明一下，每一個族群都有不同的照顧模式，布農族的照顧方法是這樣，他們是同一個家族可以分散到臺東、南投、高雄。部長，我跟您說，當他們殺豬的時候，比如同一個家名叫Takisvilainan這個家族，在殺豬的時候，他是高雄人，他要分到臺東的親人，分到南投的親人；反之，不是同一個家族，就算是隔壁鄰居也分不到豬肉，他們是這樣子去確保他們的親屬關係。我現在要說的是，這個小孩的確是他的家人，這個小孩的媽媽跟收養人的曾祖父、曾祖母是親兄妹，但是他跟這個孩子就是七親等，就脫離了我們法制規定的六親等。那現在偏偏要弄一個收出養的評估報告，我就是希望現在原健法都已經納入文化安全的概念，是不是這個收出養的評估報告也要有文化安全的概念啊？要修一下嘛！至少要跟那些人講嘛，是不是？","另外就是要檢討這個媒合機制，為什麼這個家長很生氣，他說兩次都叫他要去跟媒合中心聯繫，他就不要啊，他寧可不要，他繼續照顧好了，就算這個孩子沒有登記在他的名下，反正就照顧到孩子長大。他怎麼會願意讓孩子去給外面的人帶呢？可是按照法規就不行，而且在部落裡面，這些親戚是整個部落一起養這個孩子，也不會出現問題。所以我在這邊要提出的是，這個部分我們原健法已經有納入文化安全，我覺得該修的地方就是檢討媒合的機制，要有族群的概念進來，收出養的評估報告也希望去做檢討，好不好？","因為時間到了，我希望衛福部會同原民會，兩週內針對原家中心納入社安網提出一個衝擊影響評估報告，過去的母機構陪伴二、三十年怎麼辦？為了一個公權力，這是國家的制度，我要講的就是這個。其實每一個族群都有不同的照顧模式，我覺得我們要尊重，如果我們一直在硬邦邦的法制底下去思考問題，我們會把好不容易建立起來的東西又破壞掉，也希望針對報告裡面提到的人力配置經費、編制工作模式，在兩週內一起提出報告，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接下來請廖委員偉翔質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.22659375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.58034375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.567218750000002,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.28846875,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.13159375,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.88659375,"end":33.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.05846875,"end":41.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.48846875,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.20096875,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.34784375,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.20784375,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.540968750000005,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.578468750000006,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.87346875,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.74596875,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.86346875000001,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":85.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.90784375000001,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":98.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.15471875,"end":102.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.30596875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.92534375000001,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.89534375000001,"end":113.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.24096875000001,"end":115.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.16471875,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.37096875,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.72846875,"end":127.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.26409375,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.91784375,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.44909375,"end":134.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.99284375000002,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.60409375,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.59534375,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.91971875000002,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.77159375000002,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.19284375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.79159375,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.06471875,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.51159375,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.95409375,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.98346875000001,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.52284375000002,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.99096875,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.52659375000002,"end":177.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.74159375000002,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.80034375000002,"end":181.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.46659375000002,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.60909375,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.17409375000003,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.01721875,"end":200.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.85596875000002,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.98659375000003,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.65284375000002,"end":206.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.05346875,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.64409375000002,"end":210.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.96846875,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.44409375,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.51971875,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.71784375000001,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.23596875,"end":228.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.78409375,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.62784375,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.69909375,"end":235.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.11221875,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.79909375000003,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.27096875,"end":247.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.53221875000003,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.53971875000002,"end":256.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.16346875,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.00284375,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.82534375,"end":264.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.57596875,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.49971875,"end":267.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.00596875,"end":271.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.56659375000004,"end":272.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.62971875,"end":274.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.70534375,"end":283.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.36221875,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.55596875000003,"end":288.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":290.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.19221875,"end":292.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.36909375,"end":294.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.86659375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.81159375000004,"end":297.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.29221875,"end":300.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.08096875,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.44346875,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.24909375000004,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.37096875000003,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.44596875,"end":316.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.60596875000005,"end":319.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.21721875000003,"end":335.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.57346875,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.76721875000004,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.50096875,"end":343.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.71971875,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.59284375000004,"end":347.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.44034375,"end":352.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.24596875000003,"end":352.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.00534375,"end":358.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.23659375,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.52346875,"end":358.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.02971875000003,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.62034375,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.63721875000005,"end":359.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.67096875000004,"end":359.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.73846875000004,"end":359.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.97471875,"end":365.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.11721875,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.16284375000004,"end":390.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.88534375,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.81721875000005,"end":397.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.67346875000004,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.10784375000003,"end":402.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.66846875000005,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.65971875,"end":407.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.35971875,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.19471875000005,"end":418.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.93596875000003,"end":419.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.00346875,"end":423.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.84659375,"end":424.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.72409375,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.03159375,"end":429.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.05659375000005,"end":432.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.06034375,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.59159375,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.25721875000005,"end":445.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.52659375,"end":447.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.33221875000004,"end":448.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.95659375,"end":450.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.42471875,"end":452.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.15846875000005,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.15409375,"end":456.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.80346875000004,"end":458.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.62596875,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.39784375000005,"end":460.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.41034375000004,"end":465.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.88221875000005,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.33784375000005,"end":466.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.52346875,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.53971875,"end":476.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.69909375000003,"end":478.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.65659375,"end":480.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.27659375,"end":489.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.67596875000004,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.70971875000004,"end":490.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.13159375000004,"end":492.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.49409375000005,"end":494.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.48971875,"end":499.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.32034375,"end":499.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.34096875000006,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.52659375,"end":500.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.01596875,"end":505.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.18034375,"end":502.41659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.84221875000003,"end":508.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.72784375000003,"end":509.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.70659375,"end":518.0090937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.22846875,"end":533.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.09096875,"end":534.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.8797187499999,"end":540.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.6047187500001,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.4822187500001,"end":543.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.04721875,"end":546.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.28721875,"end":549.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.54846875,"end":553.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.91909375,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.77534375,"end":559.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.4709687500001,"end":561.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.7153437500001,"end":564.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.06096875,"end":564.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.3984687500001,"end":565.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.3603437500001,"end":577.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.95471875,"end":571.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.07659375,"end":572.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.4097187500001,"end":573.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.94909375,"end":585.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3740937499999,"end":591.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9553437500001,"end":592.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.15346875,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.1997187500001,"end":608.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.7690937500001,"end":596.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.77971875,"end":609.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.77534375,"end":611.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.6484687500001,"end":612.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.40346875,"end":616.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.3859687500001,"end":617.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.9765937500001,"end":625.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.92034375,"end":630.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.57784375,"end":635.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.50971875,"end":635.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.5603437500001,"end":635.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.18471875,"end":640.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.83846875,"end":638.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.42034375,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.55096875,"end":643.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.9978437500001,"end":647.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.99721875,"end":649.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.2122187500001,"end":651.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.7309687500001,"end":662.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.6953437500001,"end":666.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.2222187500001,"end":670.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.79534375,"end":673.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9678437500002,"end":678.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.1653437500001,"end":690.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.8090937500001,"end":706.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.19471875,"end":709.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.4897187500001,"end":724.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.1497187500001,"end":726.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.36909375,"end":727.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.7822187500001,"end":731.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.7522187500001,"end":740.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.7222187500001,"end":733.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.3628437500001,"end":739.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.42596875,"end":739.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.0334687500001,"end":740.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.7084687500001,"end":746.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.1297187499999,"end":752.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.9934687500001,"end":761.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.66346875,"end":759.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.2453437500001,"end":761.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.8359687500001,"end":766.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.6965937500001,"end":764.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.23596875,"end":768.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.9740937500001,"end":781.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.1765937499999,"end":769.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.22721875,"end":769.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.32846875,"end":769.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.4109687499999,"end":785.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.59659375,"end":782.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.24159375,"end":785.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.7647187500002,"end":799.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.3953437500002,"end":801.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.9309687500001,"end":807.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.5459687500002,"end":810.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.39784375,"end":813.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.91221875,"end":814.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.31284375,"end":815.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.2240937500001,"end":819.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.3459687500001,"end":831.3272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.95159375,"end":839.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.9853437500001,"end":833.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.5790937500001,"end":847.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.7803437500002,"end":852.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.64034375,"end":853.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.5347187500001,"end":856.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.4753437500001,"end":858.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.68159375,"end":864.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.1784687500001,"end":865.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":866.66346875,"end":868.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.75159375,"end":892.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.7647187500002,"end":897.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.01721875,"end":902.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.7253437500001,"end":903.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.95721875,"end":905.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":905.88096875,"end":907.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.70346875,"end":910.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.07846875,"end":913.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.18346875,"end":915.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.57971875,"end":917.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.96346875,"end":917.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":918.1997187500001,"end":924.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.3547187500001,"end":925.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.87784375,"end":929.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.67909375,"end":931.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":930.4172187500001,"end":931.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.93596875,"end":932.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.1340937500001,"end":935.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.5303437500002,"end":936.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":935.58096875,"end":938.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.5678437500001,"end":938.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.1203437500001,"end":940.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.77846875,"end":945.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":945.6384687500001,"end":948.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.4565937500001,"end":951.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":952.0847187500001,"end":958.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":958.3959687500001,"end":960.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":960.75846875,"end":963.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":964.84221875,"end":965.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.0109687500001,"end":965.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":965.4834687500002,"end":965.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":969.29721875,"end":971.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":971.03534375,"end":973.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":974.0559687500001,"end":976.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":978.5447187500001,"end":989.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":988.87221875,"end":992.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":991.4878437500001,"end":991.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":992.6184687500001,"end":993.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":993.0403437500001,"end":994.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":997.03971875,"end":1001.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1002.22034375,"end":1002.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1003.92471875,"end":1011.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1011.65346875,"end":1026.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1027.2628437500002,"end":1027.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1028.0728437500002,"end":1028.2078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1028.27534375,"end":1029.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1030.38471875,"end":1030.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1030.97534375,"end":1031.4647187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.085,"end":26.761,"text":"謝主席,有請部長。好,來有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦啦。但我還是要講,從那個食安一直到食安的問題,我都儘量善意提醒,展現魄力,立即應變,錯誤修正,"},{"start":30.236,"end":36.843,"text":"這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為。所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對,包含思安。"},{"start":51.411,"end":51.431,"text":"委員長"},{"start":70.543,"end":71.343,"text":"我個人倒不是這麼認為。"},{"start":92.148,"end":119.824,"text":"在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個"},{"start":121.698,"end":121.938,"text":"這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":139.679,"end":162.492,"text":"所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了"},{"start":164.557,"end":180.372,"text":"有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁"},{"start":182.703,"end":200.95,"text":"來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但"},{"start":203.172,"end":225.783,"text":"這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧"},{"start":230.804,"end":251.869,"text":"這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情"},{"start":259.229,"end":261.655,"text":"這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?"},{"start":268.609,"end":291.628,"text":"這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政"},{"start":299.346,"end":302.415,"text":"都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?"},{"start":305.685,"end":330.914,"text":"這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友"},{"start":331.454,"end":333.576,"text":"韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點"},{"start":350.492,"end":354.216,"text":"哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來"},{"start":366.169,"end":390.395,"text":"那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養"},{"start":391.923,"end":408.906,"text":"但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。"},{"start":410.356,"end":427.147,"text":"所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子"},{"start":428.107,"end":445.506,"text":"小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟"},{"start":449.053,"end":467.622,"text":"然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說"},{"start":470.603,"end":491.392,"text":"我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點"},{"start":492.792,"end":504.72,"text":"第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉"},{"start":518.888,"end":542.944,"text":"後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年"},{"start":544.273,"end":560.626,"text":"這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧"},{"start":561.767,"end":567.609,"text":"那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼"},{"start":578.278,"end":592.453,"text":"本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的"},{"start":593.234,"end":595.055,"text":"對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理"},{"start":617.478,"end":639.796,"text":"所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉"},{"start":641.736,"end":665.565,"text":"所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統"},{"start":666.385,"end":689.698,"text":"所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制"},{"start":690.919,"end":706.173,"text":"所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?"},{"start":707.673,"end":727.139,"text":"這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生"},{"start":727.839,"end":748.004,"text":"我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛"},{"start":751.405,"end":757.733,"text":"未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。"},{"start":767.841,"end":783.987,"text":"至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?"},{"start":785.968,"end":806.945,"text":"跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做"},{"start":808.618,"end":831.314,"text":"他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的"},{"start":832.554,"end":841.037,"text":"這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關"},{"start":858.803,"end":867.717,"text":"是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?"},{"start":869.793,"end":892.596,"text":"部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前"},{"start":893.797,"end":915.536,"text":"台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧"},{"start":916.636,"end":922.08,"text":"所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法"},{"start":940.188,"end":965.054,"text":"在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎"},{"start":972.457,"end":993.808,"text":"這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛"},{"start":997.216,"end":1002.6,"text":"我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?"},{"start":1003.916,"end":1003.936,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ad93490843e2dd2c525cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6f356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:31:11 - 13:45:27","影片長度":"00:14:16","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":856,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:45:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:31:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1536,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（13時31分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：薛部長好，辛苦了。我們知道所有的孩子都是家長的寶，也是社會的寶，更是國家的寶，所以首先針對這一次虐童事件，我想這真的是凸顯出目前在各種政策跟措施上都一定有失靈的地方，今天也聽到也看到也知道很多的要求，也有做了相關的配套措施，這個一定是有立即改善的必要，如何精進現有的政策，讓所有的需求者都能夠得到好的照顧與關懷，真的是非常迫切的一個任務，所以就麻煩部長繼續擔當，因為守護下一代是我們這一代共同的責任，這個是非常確定的事情。全國國人針對這個事件真的都感到非常痛心，也希望能夠透過更完整的檢討來避免下一次的發生，不過不管如何，我們還是很擔心，萬一真的又有下一個案件會怎麼辦。","就像今天媒體又有報載，雖然還沒有確實，不過好像北市又通報兩起疑似兒虐個案，案情當然還在釐清中，可是比較特別的是這兩個個案都涉及移工的子女，而不是我們臺灣自己的子女，這凸顯出移工子女萬一也出現類似問題的時候，包括醫療的健康照護，可能也需要透過部裡面多加以關心。因為依據報載，這個疑似的個案是因為諾羅病毒而致死，我們知道依照臺灣健康照護的能力，諾羅病毒讓兒童致死，表示在治療上一定是受到很大的耽擱跟影響才會出現這樣的問題，我們也知道諾羅病毒其實只要透過勤洗手就能夠有機會去減少或改善傳播的情形，那這部分可不可以請部長利用這個時間，讓社會更瞭解這樣的過程？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。這兩個案子，有一個案子是臺北市的，這個病童已經死亡，他到院的時候已經死亡，在生前有就醫紀錄，醫師的診斷是急性腸胃炎，但是他沒有做任何的病毒採檢，因為現在是在司法程序當中，要等司法的相驗結果才能夠確定他的死因。","第二個案子是在桃園，那病童送到臺北來，臺北這邊的診斷仍然是急性腸胃炎，因為急性腸胃炎有時候會脫水，所以他來的時候狀況不是很好，醫院把他收到ICU去，目前經過治療之後有比較穩定，但是醫院同時發現有外傷的現象，所以也做了兒虐的通報。第二個案子的話，我們是希望當病童比較穩定之後，我們再進入是否有兒虐的相關調查。","這兩個案子因為牽涉到的都是逃逸移工所生的小孩子，媽媽本身應該是沒有能力去照顧而委託其他的機構團體或是她的友人去做照顧，這個部分當然會涉及到逃逸移工及逃逸移工所生的小孩子要怎麼樣去協助等等的相關措施。目前的話，在中央的層級，包括衛福部，包括移民署，包括勞動部等等，我們是有一個機制可以來協助，但是很重要的就是這些人要找出來，這個是比較困難的，所以是有涉及到這個部分。","但是地方在接受通報之後，也有往衛福部這邊來通知，在衛福部這邊的話，不管是接受到兒少保護的通報或者是兒虐的通報，區分這些是什麼樣的案子並不是重點，重點是要去辨識它是否就是兒童保護的案件，這才是重點，尤其是一個已經死亡，已經進入檢調，一個還在，那這個部分應該是往兒童最佳利益的方向去思考。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以不管是中央或地方，只要是兒童，不管他是什麼樣的身分，我們都必須要從臺灣可以去幫助兒童的這個立場來做好這些事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。照顧下一代、守護下一代都是政府應該盡的責任，也是國人很高的期許，針對兒童有更完整的保護和照顧都是政府很重要的責任，所以本席今天要特別關注的，除了一些對兒童該有的保護以外，還有兒童的醫療權益。其實我本身是一個癌症科的醫師，如果兒童他同樣有這些癌症問題的時候，我們有沒有更好的方式來讓就醫過程可以更順利，也可以順利地康復？部長，你知不知道臺灣有一個叫「兒童醫療輔導師」的角色？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們同仁有跟我做一點說明，這不是一個很普遍的職務。"],["王委員正旭：不是一個很普遍的需求，還是期待我們未來有可能的話……"],["薛部長瑞元：可能我們還要介入來做評估啦！因為他所服務的對象到底是哪些人，需要有什麼特別的專業能力，這個都還需要再做討論。"],["王委員正旭：是。因為我們知道兒童整個診療的需求，包括兒童醫院的建置，還有如何能夠讓整體的，尤其是這些重症兒童的醫療需求來做哪一些更好的處理，我們根據現在的資料可以看到，其實臺大兒童醫院也好，馬偕兒童醫院也好，事實上，他們針對這樣的需求是有在做各方面的努力。","我們知道醫療輔導師其實是有他的特色，他的特色就是可以陪伴兒童在整個重症的醫療過程當中，如何能夠偕同整個醫療團隊來讓他的診療過程可以更順利，包括減少兒童在就醫期間受到就醫各方面的影響而導致抗拒或者是心理的壓力，甚至後來因為家長或者是病童的兄弟之間造成了一些影響，透過兒童醫療輔導師的功能跟角色來協助整個就醫。","事實上，我們的確從文獻上看到它是有很好的成果，我們看下一個畫面就知道，臺灣的需求不是沒有，而且是每一年看起來都有逐漸在增加，包括在臺灣幾乎每一天都會有一個兒童被診斷是癌症，這個癌症不只是兒癌，包括血液癌，還有很多是來自於身體各方面的癌症，這種診療其實是非常地長，有的需要好幾個禮拜的時間，有的需要更久，甚至是好幾個月的時間，所以這部分如果有相關的能力來做處理的話，對這個病人或者是他的家長是有很大的幫助。","最近有一部電影叫做「BIG」，不曉得部長有沒有看過這部電影？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有機會去看。"],["王委員正旭：如果有時間的話，或者是真的需要稍微做情緒上的舒緩的話，這部電影我是真的很推薦，包括現場所有的人，大家有機會可以去看這部電影。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會越看越消沉？"],["王委員正旭：不會，因為它是很溫馨、很感人地去描述兒童的癌症病人如何透過現有的醫療讓他們順利地康復，同時很溫馨地去描述家長及醫療團隊中間，如何能夠用好的方式去讓疾病的康復過程是順利的，而且是非常具有一個溫馨的力量去幫助兒童們解決他在就醫當中很多很多的困難。我們也知道，如果能夠透過一些好的教育方式，讓全臺灣的民眾可以更知道如何能夠有效陪伴的同時，讓整個醫療可以更順利的話，那這樣的兒童醫療輔導師的角色，就可以更凸顯出它的重要性。","我們可以看得出來，其實全球最發達的國家在醫療上面，包括美國和加拿大，他們的確很早，幾乎在15年前就感受到這個需求，所以他們有很好的建置，包括透過醫院經營的同時，政府也會撥預算來協助醫療輔導師的建置，目前日本也感受到有這個需求，所以這方面的人才也相當多。","臺灣是有基金會在協助處理這一塊，不過相對來講，就沒有辦法像其他的醫療先進國家有這麼好的人力及處理模式。主要的原因是，包括在要求變成輔導師，它真的需要一個很完整的教育及好的認證過程，臺灣在這部分，很希望將來有機會透過這方面的機制來幫助我們建立這樣的人才，同時提供給醫療院所，尤其是在兒童醫院裡面可以協助整個醫療過程。有請部長這邊來研討看看，將來政府有沒有辦法去用專案或研究案的方式讓這樣的需求可以得到滿足。"],["薛部長瑞元：我想我們初步會請同仁去蒐集資料，這個部分也麻煩委員幫忙，我們蒐集了資料之後再來做一些研議，因為這個會牽涉到它是否要變成一個專業還是說不是，那什麼樣的人來做這件事情最恰當，然後他的教育訓練要怎麼樣去完成，他未來工作的地點是在什麼地方，對於這些病人或家屬的協助從醫院到家庭是一連貫的，那要怎麼樣來執行，這個可能我們都要進一步去做規劃與研究。"],["王委員正旭：好，所以這個部分真的很需要請部長持續來努力。","我們再往下看，其實今天所討論的很多很多細節，真的都需要增加我們的醫療資源，我們增加醫療資源最重要就是要投資國民的健康，這些真的需要各界共同來支持，有更好更完整的醫療資源我們才有辦法守護這一代的健康，也能夠照顧到下一代。","最後一個部分，今天的臨提有提到，有家長陳情學校在執行健康檢查的時候碰到了一些困難，這部分教育部已經同意要照辦，主要的問題是在於目前小朋友，尤其是小朋友一年級跟四年級在開學的時候，他們就要從學校得到一個健康檢查來確認他的健康狀態，那在執行的時候有一些是外包，有一些是由學校去聘請從外面進來的醫師來執行，造成處理上的落差。我們也知道現在這樣的需求是由地方的教育局在執行，可是中央這邊好像沒有完全掌握到執行的狀況是如何，所以我們希望能夠有更完整的資料來讓我們多了解，以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的質詢。","接下來請劉建國委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.19846875,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.00721875,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.11534375,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":51.314093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.516593750000006,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.68409375,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.48721875000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.11971875,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.50721875,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.51534375000001,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.50659375000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.22784375,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.01659375000001,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.71659375,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":131.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.48721875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.07971875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.39159375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.38659375,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.36096875,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.83346875,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.86159375,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.41721875000002,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.95034375,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.31221875,"end":203.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.62784375,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.76409375,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.15596875000003,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.66159375,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.54534375000003,"end":294.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.03971875,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.35159375,"end":297.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.16784375000003,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.17346875000004,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.99596875000003,"end":353.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.27534375000005,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.75346875,"end":383.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.66721875,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.64659375,"end":413.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.01284375,"end":420.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.86846875000003,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.26471875000004,"end":421.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.49971875,"end":430.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.84534375000004,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.75596875,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.25096875,"end":511.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.28846875,"end":512.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.65096875,"end":535.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8415937500001,"end":545.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.5447187500001,"end":554.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.35346875,"end":557.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.42909375,"end":559.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.15034375,"end":576.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.3503437500001,"end":578.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.67471875,"end":602.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.2990937500001,"end":580.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.6709687499999,"end":613.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.5890937500001,"end":634.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.0034687500001,"end":635.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.18471875,"end":650.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.4565937500001,"end":656.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.9578437499999,"end":660.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.3159687500001,"end":664.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.90596875,"end":678.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.5578437500001,"end":714.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.3115937500002,"end":716.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.4253437500001,"end":732.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.5534687500001,"end":763.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.8147187500001,"end":798.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.92221875,"end":777.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.33221875,"end":855.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.9440937500001,"end":853.28159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.874,"end":13.042,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長薛部長好請薛部長是"},{"start":17.259,"end":38.588,"text":"委員好學部長好辛苦了我們知道所有的孩子都是家長的寶也是社會的寶更是國家的寶所以首先針對這次的內統事件我想這真的是凸顯出目前在各種政策跟措施上都有一定失靈的地方"},{"start":39.268,"end":66.798,"text":"今天也聽到也看到也知道很多的要求還有也做了相關的配套措施這個一定是要有立即改善的必要那如何精進現有的政策讓所有的這些需求者都能夠得到好的照顧跟關懷真的是非常迫切的一個任務所以就麻煩部長繼續擔當因為守護下一代是我們這一代共同的責任這個是非常確定的事情"},{"start":67.418,"end":83.672,"text":"所以針對於全國國人對這個事件真的都感到非常的痛心也希望能夠透過更完整的檢討避免下一次的發生不過不管如何我們還是很擔心萬一真的有下一個案件會怎麼辦"},{"start":84.973,"end":110.543,"text":"就好像今天媒體就爆宅了雖然還沒有確實不過好像表示又通報兩起疑似的那個個案那這個案情當然還在釐清裡面可是比較特別是這兩個個案都涉及了移工的子女而不是我們臺灣自己的子女那這個凸顯出移工子女萬一他們的孩子們也出現類似的問題的時候這個包括醫療的"},{"start":113.524,"end":113.804,"text":"衛生福利部長"},{"start":131.641,"end":152.865,"text":"要讓懦弱病史、讓兒童致死表示說在治療上他一定是受到很大的耽擱跟影響才會出現這樣的問題所以我們也知道懦弱病毒其實只要透過勤洗手就能夠有機會去減少或改善這個傳播的情形那這部分可不可以部長也利用這個時間來讓社會更了解這樣的過程"},{"start":157.606,"end":171.614,"text":"這兩個案子有一個案子是台北市的病童已經死亡到院的時候已經死亡在生前有就醫的紀錄醫師的診斷是急性腸胃炎"},{"start":175.235,"end":191.168,"text":"但是他沒有做任何的病毒的採檢所以現在是在司法的程序當中等司法相應的結果才能夠確定他的死因"},{"start":192.674,"end":213.383,"text":"第二個案子是在桃園的一個案子病童送到台北來台北這邊的診斷仍然也是急性腸胃炎因為急性腸胃炎有時候會脫水所以他來的時候狀況也不是很好"},{"start":215.185,"end":229.924,"text":"醫院把他收到ICU去目前經過治療之後有比較穩定但是醫院同時有發現說有外傷的一個現象所以醫院也做了RNA的通報"},{"start":231.206,"end":245.659,"text":"那這個部分的話這個第二個案子的話我們希望說當病頭那這個比較穩定的時候那我們再進入這一個是否有額內的這樣的一個相關的一個調查那"},{"start":246.78,"end":266.227,"text":"這兩個案子因為牽涉到的都是逃逸移工所生的小孩子那這個媽媽本身應該是沒有能力去照顧而委託其他的機構團體或者是這個她的友人去做照顧的"},{"start":266.787,"end":294.208,"text":"那這個部分的話當然會涉及到逃逸移工還有逃逸移工所生的小孩子要怎麼樣去協助他等等這些相關的這些措施那目前的話這些在這個中央的層級包括衛福部、包括移民署、包括勞動部等等這些我們有一個機制是可以來協助這個但是一個很重要的就是"},{"start":295.269,"end":315.934,"text":"這些要找出來這是比較困難的一個所以這個部分的話當然是涉及到這個部分但是地方在做這個接受到這個通報之後那也有往衛福部這邊來通知衛福部這邊的話因為接收到不管是這個"},{"start":319.155,"end":342.297,"text":"兒童保護的通報或者是說兒女的通報這個並不是區分這些什麼樣的案子是這些的一個重點重點是到底要不要去辨識說它是否就是這個兒童保護的一個案件這才是重點"},{"start":342.998,"end":369.98,"text":"那尤其是一個已經死亡了那已經進入檢調一個還在的那這一個部分的話應該是往這一個方向這兒童的最佳利益去思考所以就麻煩不管是中央或地方只要是兒童不管他是什麼樣的身份我們都必須要從臺灣可以去幫助兒童的這個立場來做好這些事情好謝謝那照顧下一代守護下一代都是政府應該盡的責任"},{"start":372.141,"end":386.174,"text":"也是國人很高的期許針對兒童有更完整的保護跟照顧都是政府很重要的責任所以本期今天要特別關注的是我們除了一些該有的對兒童的保護以外兒童的醫療的權益"},{"start":387.835,"end":404.447,"text":"其實我本身是一個癌症科的醫師當然對於如果兒童他有同樣的這些癌症問題的時候我們有沒有更好的方式來讓這樣的就醫過程可以更順利也可以順利的康復那部長你不知道臺灣有一個叫兒童醫療輔導師這樣的角色"},{"start":408.455,"end":435.933,"text":"這我們同仁有跟我有做一點說明這不是一個很普遍的一個不是一個很普遍的需求還是說期待我們未來有可能的話呢進入再做評估啦因為他所服務的對象到底是哪一些人他需要什麼特別的一些專業的這一個能力這都還需要再做討論是因為我們知道兒童整個診療的需求"},{"start":437.074,"end":461.729,"text":"包括兒童醫院的建設還有如何能夠讓整體的尤其是重症的這些兒童的醫療需求來做哪一些更好的處理我們可以根據現在的資料看到其實臺大兒童醫院也好或馬街兒童醫院也好事實上他們是針對於這樣的需求有在做各方面的努力我們知道醫療輔導師其實他是有他的特色"},{"start":462.569,"end":488.939,"text":"他的特色就是可以陪伴兒童在整個重症的醫療過程當中如何能夠協同整個醫療團隊來讓他的這個診療過程可以更順利包括減少這個兒童在就醫期間會因為他在受到就醫的不同的這種各方面的影響而導致抗拒或者是心理的壓力或者是甚至後來因為家長"},{"start":489.839,"end":490.139,"text":"臺灣的確這個需求"},{"start":514.696,"end":535.133,"text":"每一年看起來是都有逐漸在增加的過程包括每一年在台灣幾乎每一天都會有一個新的兒童會被診斷是癌症那這個癌症不只是兒癌包括血液癌以外很多都是來自於身體的各方面的癌症那這種整個診療其實是非常的長"},{"start":536.494,"end":553.739,"text":"有的是需要好幾個禮拜的時間有的是需要更久甚至是好幾個月的時間所以這部分如果有相關的能力來做處理的話對這個病人或是他的家長是有很大的幫助那不知道最近有一部電影叫做BIG"},{"start":555.499,"end":575.937,"text":"小部長有沒有去看過這部電影目前還沒有機會去看如果有時間的話或者是真的需要稍微做情緒上的舒緩的話這部電影我是真的很推薦包括在現場的所有的大家可以有機會去看這部電影"},{"start":578.779,"end":601.187,"text":"因為他是很溫馨的很感人的去描述這個兒童的癌症病人如何透過現有的醫療能夠讓他們順利的康復那同時很溫馨的去描述家長還有醫療團隊中間如何能夠用好的方式去讓這個疾病的康復過程是順利的而且是非常的具有"},{"start":602.768,"end":629.645,"text":"一個溫馨的力量去幫助兒童們解決他在就醫當中很多很多的困難所以我們也知道如果能夠透過這些好的教育方式讓全臺灣的民眾都可以更知道如何能夠有效的陪伴的同時讓整個醫療會更順利的話那這樣的這個兒童醫療輔導師的角色就可以更凸顯出他的重要性出來我們可以看得出來其實在全球"},{"start":630.586,"end":656.297,"text":"最發達的國家在醫療上面包括美國跟加拿大他們的確有在很早幾乎在15年前就感受到這個需求所以他們有很好的建制包括其實還透過醫院的經營預算的同時包括政府也會撥預算來協助這個醫療輔導師的建制那在相對的目前日本"},{"start":657.037,"end":674.316,"text":"也感受到有這個需求所以這個人數這方面的人才也相當的多那台灣相對是有基金會在協助處理這一塊不過相對來講就沒有辦法像其他的這個醫療先進國家有這麼好的這個人力跟處理的模式"},{"start":674.736,"end":700.362,"text":"主要原因是包括在要求變成輔導師他真的需要一個很完整的教育跟好的認證的過程那臺灣這部分很希望將來有機會透過這方面的機制來幫助我們來建立這樣的人才同時提供給醫療院所來幫助尤其是在兒童醫院裡面可以協助整個醫療的過程"},{"start":701.943,"end":715.724,"text":"這次有請這個部長這邊來研討看看將來政府有沒有可能有辦法去用專案或研究案的方式來讓這樣的需求可以得到一個滿足"},{"start":717.059,"end":731.189,"text":"我想我們初步會請同仁去蒐集這些資料這個部分的話也麻煩委員幫忙我們蒐集的資料之後我們再來做一些研究因為這個會牽涉到是否他要變成一個專業還是說不是"},{"start":733.89,"end":762.776,"text":"什麼樣的人來做這件事情是最恰當的然後他的教育訓練要怎麼樣去完成然後他未來工作的這個地點是在什麼樣的地方那對於這一些病人或家屬的一個協助的話是從醫院到家庭是一連貫的那要怎麼樣來執行這個可能都我們要進一步去做規劃跟研究"},{"start":763.536,"end":784.273,"text":"好,所以這個部分真的很需要請部長持續來努力那我們再往下看其實今天所討論的很多很多的細節真的都需要增加我們的這個醫療的資源所以我們增加醫療資源最重要就是要投資國民的健康那這些真的需要各界共同來支持"},{"start":784.953,"end":803.302,"text":"有更好更完整的醫療資源我們才有辦法守護這一代的健康也能夠照顧到下一代那最後一個部分就是今天林體有提到的就是有家長在陳請這個學校在執行這個健康檢查的時候碰到一些困難"},{"start":804.102,"end":832.996,"text":"那這一部分教育部已經有同意要照辦那主要的問題是在於說目前在小朋友尤其是小朋友一年級跟四年級在開學的時候呢他們就要從學校得到一個健康檢查的整個確認他的健康狀態那在執行的時候有一些是外包那有一些是由學校去聘請從外面的進來的這個醫師來執行那造成處理上的落差"},{"start":834.096,"end":855.385,"text":"我們也知道現在這樣的需求是由地方的教育局在執行可是中央這邊好像沒有完全是能夠掌握到到底這個執行狀況是如何所以我們很希望能夠有更完整的資料來讓我們多了解那以上 謝謝我們謝謝王正旭"}]}},{"id":"150034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a7e6a48c607f815f425cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a67cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"13:18:05 - 13:31:09","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":784,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:31:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:18:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1495,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（13時18分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，可以喝口水。"],["黃委員秀芳：還是部長先休息一下，我請次長好了，次長應該最清楚有關兒福的案件。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。次長，我想請教，針對剴剴這個案子，如果地方政府沒有通報給中央，你們會知道嗎？如果地方政府沒有通報。"],["李次長麗芬：確實是需要透過地方政府的通報，因為依法他們發現疑似兒虐是向地方通報，那地方發現是一個重大兒虐的話，就必須向中央來通報。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。未來如果地方有這樣子的兒虐事件，因為前面幾個委員也有特別提到，地方社會局可能會跟你們請示要不要開重大兒虐的會議，那你們跟它說可能不符合什麼樣的法令，然後又要詢問，如果未來還有類似事件的話，你們是不是有一個統整的單位或者是專責單位，而不是說我還要去問哪一個部門在負責這個案件？"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝委員的指教。確實過去在重大兒虐這個部分，我們會去分發生在哪一個場域，有不同的單位來負責，那這一次我們也發現最好是有一個單位作為總窗口來負責督導，不管是地方政府還是本部其他司署的單位一起來進行檢討，所以我們在這次的檢討當中，其實已經有明確地指出未來這樣的事件在中央就由我們保護司負責，在地方我們會希望由他們在負責保護業務的單位來負責。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我想再請教一下，有很多出養都是交給民間的媒合機構，我不知道你們怎麼去認定或是有什麼樣的機制去覺得這個媒合機構是符合我們所需要的，或者是說它是不是有按照我們的規定在進行，譬如說這個幼兒在保母的家庭可能已經有出現一些受傷的狀況，那他是不是有很積極地去做訪視？我們看到好像後面是沒有嘛！類似這個狀況，你們如果什麼事情都交給媒合機構，其實我覺得也不太對，以這一件為例的話，你們未來要怎麼去改善？"],["李次長麗芬：所以我們針對過去在收出養這個部分完全由民間團體來負責的狀況，這一次就有做一些重要的檢討，包括出養的必要性評估應該要回到縣市政府，在等待出養的短暫安置應該也由縣市政府來結合在地的安置資源，然後費用要出，如果經費不足，中央就來提供協助。","我們對於這些收出養媒合機構除了三年一次的評鑑之外，每一年其實都還是有業務檢查，然後都有開聯繫會議，我們也會再透過強化這些機制，能夠更清楚地了解這些收出養媒合機構是不是有落實。","很重要的一點當然就是這些孩子媒合到收出養媒合機構都是由縣市政府去跟民眾以及媒合這樣一個機構，以這個案子而言，其實它是脆弱家庭，已經開案了，所以以我們脆弱家庭的訪視，其實每個月應該還是要去做家庭訪視，可是後來縣市政府可能只有針對外祖母這邊做訪視，忘了這個孩子也是在等待出養當中，他應該也要去做訪視。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以未來要怎麼避免類似的狀況？還有一個就是他原本是在新北，後來這個保母是在臺北市，要怎麼樣去對接，用對孩子最好的方式，我覺得地方政府或者是媒合機構應該要有一些對接。"],["李次長麗芬：其實我們在一些兒少保護的相關案件裡面，大概都有一個分工，就是說今天他如果換了居住地的話，原來居住的這個縣市對於他接下來往哪一個地方居住，必須要去通知在地的社會局，這個案件就是沒有去落實通知小孩的居住有移動的部分，確實是沒有去落實這樣的通知，那我們會來要求縣市政府。"],["黃委員秀芳：我看到這個案件發生，其實我檢視一下，當然是有一些缺失，不過我覺得更大的缺失可能是在執行面，可能在執行面要怎麼樣去落實啦！所以我們擔心的就是每次發生兒虐事件，或者是有一些重大的兒童議題的話，在立法院這邊可能都會開一個專案報告，邀請衛福部來做檢討，可是會後之後，到底地方政府或者是中央政府或者是這個媒合機構到底有沒有去落實？我覺得落實比你訂了好多的法條或訂了好多的規則還更重要，那怎麼樣去落實，我覺得中央應該是以一個督導……"],["李次長麗芬：對，督導、協助的角色。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，督導和協助，那地方怎麼樣去落實，或是地方把這個案子交給媒合機構，它要怎麼樣去督導，我覺得這個應該是我們未來要再去加強的地方。"],["李次長麗芬：會，這個部分我們在這次的檢討報告有提出來，中央對於地方的督導、協助或是協調，這部分我們怎麼樣來強化。當然地方政府對於它的業務，他們自己在社會局處裡面，相關科別的溝通協調，以及它有委託民間團體的一些合作方案，地方政府要負起督導、協助的責任。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我有看到這個改善計畫，包括強化保母的訓練，還有增加訪視頻率，那我想請教，還有一個是辦理保母評鑑推薦平臺，這個好像是我們本來就已經在做的，對不對？"],["李次長麗芬：我們本來就有一個平臺。"],["黃委員秀芳：訪視的頻率本來可能一個月一次，你現在是要一個月再增加？"],["李次長麗芬：我們這一次的檢討，與兩個縣市、專家學者及兒盟一起做的檢討會議當中，大家都覺得應該有提高訪視的必要性，可是應該要去看的是什麼樣的情況之下我們要去提高訪視，這個部分在4月底以前，我們會再邀請縣市政府一起來開會。","這當中我們覺得應該要建立所謂的指引，然後就是所謂的checklist，就是哪一個部分應該要注意到，我們希望在相關的指引、相關的指標上面做得更加具體。其實現在有，可是可能還沒有那麼具體，我們再把它做得更加具體，讓未來的訪視人員，不只是社工，其實在保母這邊，有一部分的專業是所謂的教保人員的專業，也讓他們知道怎麼樣去確保孩子有沒有受到好的照顧。","在加強訓練這個部分，有討論到是兩個部分要去加強，一個就是對兒童發展的訓練，這個部分可能就是社工比較缺乏的，一個就是兒虐的辨識能力的訓練，我們希望兩方面都能夠一起來提升。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛次長有特別提到，訪視的頻率要增加，其實你也知道社工要管的事情真的非常多，我每次經過縣府的社會處，你從上面看，可能到七八點、八九點那個燈都還是亮的，我知道他們的工作量真的都非常大，未來如果訪視的頻率要增加的話，也許工作量也增加了，那怎麼樣讓地方第一線的社工人員有更多的資源？"],["李次長麗芬：如果訪視的頻率增加，我們會一併來檢討，例如說在社福中心、脆家，因為訪視頻率增加可能是在委託安置這個部分，還有一個就是全日托保母的部分，所以我們會針對每個社福中心的社工人員是否有增加的必要，以及在各縣市居托中心這些保母的訪視輔導員有沒有增加的必要，我們都會一併來做檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望你們要成為社工人員最佳的後盾。"],["李次長麗芬：是，一定的。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為真的確實，如果不給他們資源的話，其實也很難去做更好的事情。","另外，我想問一下去年發生的事情，桃園某私立托嬰中心在去年的時候，托育人員涉嫌對幼兒施暴或者是打巴掌、灌水，類似這樣的狀況可能家長看到也都會非常痛心，當時桃園市社會局他們是裁罰機構及行為人，就是罰錢，並要求工作人員停止職務，我想請教，類似這麼嚴重的事情，停止職務是不是這個機構就應該要撤照了？"],["李次長麗芬：是，這依我們相關的法律規定，如果發生兒虐案件，這個托嬰中心跟縣市政府的社會局必須找所有的家長一起來召開會議，讓所有在這邊受托的家長知道托嬰中心有發生這樣的事情，如果家長想要轉托的話，縣市政府要幫他，協助他轉換。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是我舉一個真實的案例，地方的這種托嬰中心其實很少，這些小朋友想要轉到其他托嬰中心，結果找不到，這是真實的哦！找不到，沒有足夠的托嬰中心，它只好要求說不然你就到其他縣市，可能就跨縣市了啦！所以如果發生類似的狀況，對於同一個托嬰中心裡面的這些幼兒，縣市政府或者是什麼樣的單位應該要介入，然後協助這些幼兒可以轉到其他的托嬰中心，而不是讓家長自己去找。"],["李次長麗芬：是，確實我們相關的規定就是要求社會局處要協助，委員提到可能在家長就近需要的區域裡面沒有適合的機構，這個部分其實也可以跟家長討論，是不是可以由居托中心推薦適合的保母，這也是一個方式。","我想對於兩歲以下孩子的照顧，我們在托嬰中心這個部分，目前都還是在積極布建，不管是公共化或是準公共化，我們也都一直要求縣市要加緊腳步來做這個資源的布建，我們會持續來督導地方政府。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我不希望每次發生事情之後，我們才在這邊做檢討，應該要事先就把這些事情做好，好不好？"],["李次長麗芬：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：繼續加油，謝謝。"],["李次長麗芬：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","接下來請王正旭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.277843750000002,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.78346875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.91346875,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.828468750000003,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.74721875,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.73784375,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.78784375,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.95659375,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.86659375,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.68471875,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":65.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.19784375,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.17846875000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.41346875,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.46409375,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.10534375,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.30409375,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.80784375000002,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.94284375,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.25346875,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.20596875,"end":178.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.80471875,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.59659375,"end":187.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.61346875,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.55784375000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.37096875,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.37034375000002,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.00659375,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.72846875,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.67596875000004,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.70971875000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.57034375,"end":275.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.86971875,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.92846875000004,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.00409375000004,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.96846875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.57534375,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.80971875,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.73346875000004,"end":311.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.29659375,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.11034375,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.64471875000004,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.99909375000004,"end":358.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.50659375000004,"end":375.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.73596875000004,"end":390.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.78659375,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.04659375,"end":386.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.11346875000004,"end":392.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.23971875,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.33596875,"end":405.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":406.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.12346875000003,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.54909375000005,"end":413.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.99159375000005,"end":417.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.75471875000005,"end":421.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.23096875000005,"end":421.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.55159375000005,"end":431.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.41971875,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.67659375000005,"end":432.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.18284375,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.95846875,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.52784375000005,"end":448.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.18971875000005,"end":443.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.95659375,"end":448.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.99034375,"end":449.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.12534375,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.26034375,"end":451.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.65659375,"end":478.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.56659375000004,"end":460.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.96659375,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.62284375,"end":485.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.34784375000004,"end":483.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.77784375000005,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.38846875,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.5522187500001,"end":562.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.4578437499999,"end":535.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.79534375,"end":562.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.16659375,"end":569.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.3259687500001,"end":571.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.31284375,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.2097187500001,"end":584.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0265937500001,"end":604.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.08096875,"end":599.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.20721875,"end":600.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.27409375,"end":626.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.6840937500001,"end":635.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.61096875,"end":641.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.7703437499999,"end":646.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.2040937500001,"end":647.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.7903437500001,"end":652.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.05971875,"end":653.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.63346875,"end":653.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.6672187500001,"end":653.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.7178437499999,"end":653.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.75159375,"end":653.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.78534375,"end":653.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.93721875,"end":653.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.9709687500001,"end":654.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.02159375,"end":654.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.47721875,"end":678.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.4428437500001,"end":658.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.45034375,"end":664.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.9209687500002,"end":678.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.7097187500001,"end":685.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.4184687500001,"end":679.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.3803437500001,"end":681.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.98284375,"end":690.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.20596875,"end":689.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.15096875,"end":694.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.97284375,"end":703.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.98034375,"end":702.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.09409375,"end":703.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.38096875,"end":717.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.45471875,"end":725.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.1497187500001,"end":725.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.6897187500001,"end":744.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.5390937500001,"end":770.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.90596875,"end":746.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.8740937500002,"end":761.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.45909375,"end":780.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.98159375,"end":775.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.2553437500001,"end":778.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.66034375,"end":780.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.00596875,"end":783.25034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.868,"end":23.158,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,有請部長,可以喝口水。還是部長你先休息一下,我請次長好了。今天次長應該也最清楚有關我們兒福的案件。好,來。那我們請李次長。"},{"start":26.88,"end":54.536,"text":"委員好市長好市長我想請教就針對這一件凱凱的這個案子如果地方政府如果沒有通報給中央那你們會知道嗎確實是需要透過地方政府的通報因為依法他們發現疑似兒女是跟地方通報那地方發現是一個重大兒女的話就必須跟中央來通報那未來如果"},{"start":55.737,"end":81.018,"text":"未來如果地方有這樣子而虐的事件的話因為我剛剛看就是前面幾個委員也有特別提到地方社會局他可能會跟你們請示那就是說要不要開這個而虐的這個重大而虐的會議啊那你們跟他說可能在不符合什麼樣的法令然後就是說又要詢問那如果未來還有類似事件的話你們是不是有一個"},{"start":83.019,"end":90.081,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教就是說確實我們過去在重大額內這個部分我們會去分發生在哪一個場域有不同的單位來負責那這次我們也發現說其實最好是有一個單位作為一個總窗口然後負責來督導"},{"start":110.885,"end":110.925,"text":"是﹖好"},{"start":134.893,"end":150.089,"text":"我們有很多就是出養這樣的一個就是都交給民間的這個機構、媒合機構那我不知道說你們怎麼去認定或是說有什麼樣的機制去覺得說這個機構、媒合機構是符合"},{"start":154.474,"end":177.656,"text":"我們所需要的或者是說他是不是有按照我們的規定在進行或者是說比如說這個這個兒童這個幼兒他已經在這個這個保母的家庭可能有出現一些受傷的狀況那他是不是有很積極的去做訪視那我們看到好像後面是沒有嗎那類似這個狀況你們就如果說什麼事情都交給這個"},{"start":178.857,"end":180.879,"text":"所以我們這次針對過去在收出養這個部分就是完全由民間團體來負責的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":196.511,"end":223.679,"text":"這次我們就有做一些重要的一個檢討包括說出養的必要性的評估應該要回到縣市政府那在等待出養的短暫這個安置應該也有縣市政府來結合他的在地的一個安置的一個資源然後費用要出那如果經費不足我們中央就來提供協助那我們對於這些說出養媒合機構其實除了三年一次的評鑑之外"},{"start":224.699,"end":248.607,"text":"每一年其實都還是有業務檢查然後還都有開聯繫會議我們也會再透過強化這些機制然後能夠更清楚的瞭解這些收出養媒合機構是不是有落實那很重要的一點當然就是因為這些孩子的一個媒合到收出養媒合機構都是縣市政府去跟民眾以及媒合這樣的機構"},{"start":250.288,"end":267.252,"text":"以這個案子而言其實它是脆弱家庭是已經開案了所以以我們脆弱家庭的一個方式其實是應該每個月還是要去做家庭方式可是後來縣市政府他可能只有針對外祖母這邊做方式可是他忘了"},{"start":267.672,"end":295.195,"text":"其實這個孩子也是在等待出養當中他應該也要去做方式所以未來要怎麼避免這樣類似的狀況還有一個就是他原本是在新北那後來他這個保母是在臺北市那怎麼樣去對接把這個整個對孩子最好的方式我覺得這應該是要地方政府或者是媒合機構應該也要有一些對接其實我們在相關的一些兒少的"},{"start":296.616,"end":321.953,"text":"保護的相關的案件裡面大概都有一個分工就是說今天他如果換了居住地的話你原來居住的這個縣市你要通知他往哪一個他接下來是往哪一個地方去他必須要去通知在地的社會局那這個案件其實就是看到是沒有去落實這樣子通知他的小孩的居住有"},{"start":322.413,"end":326.278,"text":"其實我看到這個案件發生我檢視一下當然是有一些缺失那我覺得說更大的缺失可能是在執行面"},{"start":339.613,"end":355.66,"text":"執行面就是說怎麼樣去落實所以我們擔心的就是說每次發生兒孽事件或是有一些重大的兒童的議題的話在立法院這邊都會開一個可能就是專案報告或邀請衛福部這邊來做檢討可是會後之後"},{"start":358.621,"end":374.901,"text":"到底地方政府或是我們中央政府或是媒介的這個媒合的機構到底有沒有去落實我覺得這個落實比你訂了好多的這個法條或訂了好多的規則還更重要那怎麼樣去落實我覺得這個中央應該是以一個督導"},{"start":375.822,"end":380.524,"text":"這部分我們在這次的檢討報告有提出來就是我們中央對於地方的督導、協助或是協調這部分我們怎麼樣來強化那當然地方政府對於他的業務跟他合作的"},{"start":405.783,"end":406.188,"text":"他們自己"},{"start":407.185,"end":408.145,"text":"還有一個是辦理保姆評鑑推薦平台"},{"start":437.159,"end":448.342,"text":"那這個好像是我們現在本來就已經在做的嘛 對不對你這個訪視的那你現在本來可能一個月一次那你現在是要一個月再增加"},{"start":449.425,"end":469.84,"text":"我們這次的檢討跟兩個縣市還有專家學者而某一起做的檢討會議當中大家都覺得說應該有提高訪視的必要性可是應該要去看的是什麼樣的情況之下我們要去提高訪視那這個部分我們會在4月底以前我們會再把"},{"start":471.421,"end":491.433,"text":"現時政府一起邀請他們一起來開會那這當中我們覺得應該要建立所謂的指引然後就是所謂的check list就是哪一個部分應該要注意到那我們這個部分就會希望在相關的指引相關的一些指標上面做得更加的具體其實現在有可是"},{"start":491.613,"end":492.474,"text":"這部分可能就是社工比較缺乏的"},{"start":518.314,"end":520.735,"text":"市長提到訪市頻率要增加,你也知道社工要管的事情真的非常多"},{"start":536.88,"end":561.066,"text":"我每次如果經過縣府的那個社會處的你從上面看那個可能到七八點八九點那個燈都還是亮的那我也知道說他們的工作量真的都非常的大那怎麼樣未來如果說這個訪視的頻率要增加的話可能也許工作量也增加了那怎麼樣讓地方的第一線的社工人員有更多的這個資源"},{"start":563.291,"end":579.234,"text":"如果說因為這樣的一個訪視的頻率的增加那我們會一併來檢討例如說在社福中心催加因為那個訪視頻率增加可能是在委託安置這個部分還有一個部分就是全日拖的保姆這個部分"},{"start":579.574,"end":599.224,"text":"所以我們就會針對在每個社福中心的社工人員是否有增加的必要以及在各縣市的居托中心這些保姆的訪視輔導員有沒有增加必要我們會一併都來做檢討我希望說你們也要成為這個社工人員最佳的後盾因為真的確實如果不給他們這個資源的話其實也很難去"},{"start":608.271,"end":621.523,"text":"在去年發生的事情在桃園某私立托嬰中心在去年的時候有托育人員涉嫌對幼兒施暴、打巴掌、灌水"},{"start":622.324,"end":645.853,"text":"那其實類似這樣的一個狀況可能家長看到也都會非常痛心那我們針對這個就是當時那個桃園市的社會局他們是處以裁罰這個機構的行為人就是罰錢那要求工作人員停止職務那我想請教就是說類似如果這麼嚴重的事情"},{"start":647.327,"end":664.44,"text":"是不是停止職務應該就不能再讓他這個機構就就應該就要撤照了這依我們相關的法律規定如果發生額內案件這個托嬰中心跟縣市政府的社會局他必須找所有的家長一起來召開會議"},{"start":665.621,"end":672.766,"text":"現時政府的托嬰中心其實也很少那這些小朋友想要轉到其他的托嬰中心找不到找不到這是真實的是找不到他希望就是說"},{"start":695.998,"end":699.139,"text":"主要可能第一方面如果發生類似這樣的一個狀況那同樣一個這樣的一個推動中心裡面的這些誘餌應該先是政府或者是"},{"start":717.583,"end":743.977,"text":"什麼樣的單位應該要介入然後協助這些幼兒可以轉到其他的這個托嬰中心而不是讓家長自己去找確實我們相關的規定就是要求社會局處要協助那可能委員提到就是說可能在他的家長就近的需要的區域裡面沒有適合的一個機構那這個部分其實也可以跟家長討論就是說那是不是可以有"},{"start":744.619,"end":744.679,"text":"主席"},{"start":771.543,"end":771.784,"text":"黃秀芳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa07e922384d240ba25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a614b1ada5b04794185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:04:56 - 13:18:04","影片長度":"00:13:08","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":788,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:18:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:04:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1437,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時5分）謝謝召委，請薛部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，從今天早上突發的狀況，我可以感覺薛部長在執政黨內應該人緣也是滿好的。我請問一下，因為據我們了解，今天早上的情形，王育敏召委在2012年到2020年的時候，其實那時候就擔任立委，而且那個時候也早就已經在兒福聯盟任職董事，那時候參與的也是我們衛環委員會，後來在2016年的時候有擔任我們的召委，擔任主席。","現在執政黨裡面有很多的委員也是在衛環委員會，現在是在衛環，當時也是在衛環，我相信在2016年那個時候也有討論很多關於兒少相關的議題，可是不知道為什麼今天我們討論社會安全網的時候，針對主席迴避會有這麼大的問題。我們是討論社會安全網這個通案，我覺得今天是不是因為我們針對衛福部的檢討報告，因為大眾覺得這個太草率需要去退回，那我們來講，是不是今天大家在護航衛福部？部長覺得有什麼意見？"],["薛部長瑞元：不管是執政黨或者是在野黨的委員，對於衛福部的監督都是必要的，所以也不會涉及到什麼……"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為我們認為在2016年是同樣的事情、同樣的狀況，當時不質疑主席迴避的問題，為什麼同樣的狀況，今天就質疑主席要迴避？討論社會安全網，給大眾一個說清楚講明白的機會，我覺得應該沒有這麼難，而且讓衛福部來針對問題、解決問題，我覺得這才是最重要的，好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：立委部分的話，當然立委有他的理由，我們不便評論。"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係，只是讓大家了解一下當時的時空背景，我們不希望質詢變成政治的操作、政治的炒作。我請問一下，兒福聯盟是不是全國性的組織？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對兒福聯盟，它是全國性的組織，所以它應該是不屬於地方政府管轄的，對不對？管轄的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：它是教育部主管的文教基金會。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以它是全國性的組織，而且重點是兒福聯盟的許可是不是由衛福部來發放的？"],["薛部長瑞元：就收出養這個業務的許可，是由我們衛福部。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以針對收出養這一部分，衛福部是……"],["薛部長瑞元：給予許可。"],["涂委員權吉：監管的權責單位嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這一次的虐兒致死案，我請問一下，涉案的保母是兒福聯盟的嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：是由兒福聯盟交給他們，兩者有合作的關係，那這個就是一種契約的行為了。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以兒福聯盟是由衛福部來監管的嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是就業務上面的話，兒福聯盟是……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係。嚴格來講，這一次虐兒致死案，衛福部其實是有監督的責任，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是對於這個機構來做監督，但是我們不會去進入每案或者是它例行日常的業務去做監督。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係。針對兒福聯盟這一件虐兒致死案，其實衛福部在監管的部分是有一個不可逃脫的責任。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是，所以我們會加強監管。"],["涂委員權吉：好，據我們了解，在112年12月25日，臺北市政府社會局就有接獲兒保案通報，當然它也立刻派員，後來市府受理通報後，這個是針對新聞稿，然後據我們查詢也是這個樣子。社會局曾洽衛福部保護服務司來釐清是否符合「重大兒童及少年虐待事件防治小組實施計畫」，當時保護司表示這個計畫是針對兒少遭父母、監護人或其他實際照顧者重大虐待的事件，也就是我們講的家內，但是這件行為人是保母，是屬於家外，所以不適用。後來社會局也在12月27日去洽詢，針對這個部分，社家署表示因涉及署內跨科室的業務，是否要召開重大檢討會議尚在研議中，可是目前社會局說後面他們都沒有接獲任何回應。我想請問一下，在衛福部的監督之下，我們這個機制是不是失靈，是不是應該要好好地來檢討一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是事後啦！不管檢討會議怎麼樣召開，都不會防止這位劉姓兒童的死亡，那事後的檢討……"],["涂委員權吉：所以據我們了解……"],["薛部長瑞元：那事後的檢討，已經有一個兒童因為整個的機制，結果就是死亡，這當然是重大兒虐，這個為什麼還要問？根本不需要問的事情。"],["涂委員權吉：可是社會局有洽詢衛福部，衛福部還回復說這個是屬於家內的，不是他們規範的。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分的話，我也對部內單位的同仁做出了一個訓示，不應該用這樣子的態度去處理這個問題。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以部長，是不是下面這些承辦的主管針對這部分，而且當時社會局已經通報了，他說這個不在計畫裡面，它是屬於家內，那保母屬於家外，所以後來再洽詢，你們也沒有回復。我們了解其實在第一時間，社會局確實是有通報，只是後來衛福部並沒有具體地回復。"],["薛部長瑞元：通報是一件事情，他本來就應該要通報，讓我們知道有這件事情發生，但是他去詢問說要不要開，這個就多餘，因為他不懂得應該是往他的主管去詢問要不要開。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那這部分我已經看到在機制上，我聽說後來衛福部把保母也納入，所以才去做討論。當初下面承辦的，對於家內、家外有不同的見解，認定是家內，所以當時不受理，後來因為事件爆發之後才把保母列入家內，我希望衛福部針對這部分好好地檢討。因為我們可以看得到，這個事情又是民眾舉發，檢舉之後這個事情才出來，我覺得這跟蘇丹紅真的是異曲同工之妙，都是民眾舉發，衛福部才出來處理，我覺得前面所有的機制又失靈了，等到民眾舉發，我們再來好好地檢討。雖然沒有超前部署，但是亡羊補牢也是沒有辦法中的辦法，我希望針對這些部分，我們好好地去做改善。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，所以今天提出來的檢討報告也就是針對這一些問題。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我希望這個檢討報告還是要檢討，還是要好好加強，因為社會大眾對這個檢討報告是真的不滿意。","我再請問一下社工司，目前根據我們統計，全國政府部門社工有多少人？"],["蘇司長昭如：我們目前有的是111年底的數字，大概是7,928人。"],["涂委員權吉：那是公的嘛？"],["蘇司長昭如：公部門，對。"],["涂委員權吉：我看一下私的，私的好像有1萬出頭。"],["蘇司長昭如：1萬700人左右。"],["涂委員權吉：所以總共有一萬八千多人，對不對？"],["蘇司長昭如：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我請問一下，現在社福相關部門的社工，目前來講，到底夠不夠？"],["蘇司長昭如：如果以全國人口的社工人力比，的確跟其他國家比是來得負擔高一點。"],["涂委員權吉：我看到去年新聞就有報出衛福部針對全國社會安全網的計畫，你們有說社工要增加4,190人，可是據我們了解，目前只找到3,400人，但你們的報告從頭到尾也沒有提到你要的人數是四千多人，現在只達到三千多人，這些問題不用去檢討嗎？還是等到事件爆發的時候，我們再來檢討要增加人數？"],["蘇司長昭如：的確行政院核定給我們社安網的人力，第2期是從111年到114年，總共要增加的人數每年都不一樣，我們每個月都有做進用人數的統計，也跟縣市來檢討怎麼協助他們增加社工的人力。"],["涂委員權吉：我們希望針對社工這部分要儘快補強，因為你們有提出九點改進措施，目前我們看到的社工數就不夠，你提九點措施，我想請問一下，你就算提出再好的計畫，沒有人去做，沒有人去執行，到時候一樣是漏洞百出，那你今天提出這個計畫，你並沒有提出如何去補強社工人數啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們提出九點改善措施，接下來當然就是要做這件事情。針對這些改善措施，我們會召集地方政府一起來做討論，需要多少的人力、有什麼樣的困難、需要多少的預算經費，這個當然我們會來做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對社工招募不易，據我們了解，111年兒福聯盟的總資產有45.9億元，可是在薪資的部分，據我們查，它只占2億元，所以算起來，前線的社工領不到4萬塊，可是我們蓋大樓動不動就3億元、4億元，那錢這樣子用，我不知道衛福部這邊知道他們使用錢的情形嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會進一步去做了解，因為我剛剛有跟委員報告，兒福聯盟是屬於文教基金會，它的主管機關應該是教育部，所以這個部分的話，我們會和教育部一起來討論怎麼樣來做監管。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望這個部分還是要多注意，因為這個有關於我們社工招募的問題，而且我們了解它收入9億元裡面有很多都是捐款，可是它每年用不到50%，人家捐款捐那麼多，你很多的費用不去用在該使用的上面，爆發社工招募不易等等的問題，然後等到推了很多的政策跟措施卻沒有社工去執行，我覺得部長應該要好好去重視，因為事情已經爆發了。","可是我真的要給衛福部一個良心的建議，從前面食藥署再到這個虐兒事件，全部都是民眾檢舉，像食安五環是到最後一環由民眾檢舉，然後這個虐兒事件也是民眾檢舉，再來好好檢討，再來好好改善，我希望衛福部真的要加緊總體檢一下。我們今天有提案，限時盤點目前所有社福政策員額缺少的狀況以及檢討方式給社會知悉，今天這個提案也出去，希望衛福部掌握這些資料好好地檢討改善，後續的相關資料也請衛福部好好地來提供檢討改善。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員的質詢。","接下來請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.36284375,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.61971875,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.93096875,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.447843750000004,"end":54.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.75659375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.236593750000004,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.79846875000001,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.97471875000001,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.22221875000001,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.64846875,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.16659375,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.58471875,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.12471875,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.71909375,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.16534375,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.22721875000002,"end":202.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.24409375000002,"end":202.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.29471875000002,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.99846875,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.52159375000002,"end":214.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.08596875,"end":218.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.38909375,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.40596875000003,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.72596875000002,"end":224.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.08034375000003,"end":224.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.09721875000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.19846875000002,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.17721875,"end":229.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.10471875000002,"end":230.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.12159375000002,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.40846875000003,"end":230.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.86409375000002,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.88096875000002,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.51784375000003,"end":242.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.59221875000003,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.44409375,"end":246.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.16471875000002,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.18159375000002,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.12784375,"end":271.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.15721875,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.73034375000003,"end":281.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.79284375000003,"end":292.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.77846875,"end":349.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.05659375000005,"end":355.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.33409375,"end":355.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.00909375000003,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.10534375000003,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.97846875000005,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.78221875,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.79034375000003,"end":388.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.85659375,"end":395.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.42909375000005,"end":398.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.46284375000005,"end":395.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.81284375,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.01971875000004,"end":438.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.35909375000006,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.09721875,"end":494.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.75784375,"end":451.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.97721875,"end":452.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.37971875000005,"end":500.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.99909375000004,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.02346875,"end":517.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.61971875,"end":527.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.4040937500001,"end":531.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.43721875,"end":533.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.5678437500001,"end":538.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.2378437500001,"end":547.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.00971875,"end":541.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.6884687500001,"end":545.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.59096875,"end":547.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.01284375,"end":554.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.5053437500001,"end":562.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.7109687500001,"end":591.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.76971875,"end":609.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.93159375,"end":636.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.31534375,"end":649.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.8872187500001,"end":656.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.2534687500001,"end":655.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.0972187500001,"end":685.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.42596875,"end":700.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.02721875,"end":755.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.1828437500001,"end":783.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.5034687500001,"end":784.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.4778437500001,"end":788.31284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.66,"end":12.905,"text":"好,謝謝召委喔,請一下我們那個薛部長好,部長請"},{"start":19.176,"end":47.564,"text":"部長好委員好那當然其實今天早上發的這個突發的狀況其實我可以感覺其實我們薛部長應該其實在執政黨內其實應該人緣也是蠻好的那我請問一下因為據我們了解今天早上的情形我們王玉敏我們的召委他在2012年到2020年的時候其實那時候就擔任立委而且那個時候也早就已經是我們"},{"start":48.304,"end":52.008,"text":"河福聯盟 任職董事 參與衛環委員會 後來2016年有擔任我們的召委 擔任主席 現在執政黨裡面有很多的委員 也是在衛環委員會 現在也是在衛環 當時也是在衛環"},{"start":70.908,"end":98.219,"text":"只是我相信在2016年那個時候也有討論很多關於兒少我們相關的議題可是不知道為什麼今天我們討論這個社會安全網的問題的時候會針對這個主席迴避會有這麼大的問題我們是討論這個通案社會安全網那我覺得今天是不是因為我們針對衛福部的檢討報告因為很多大眾覺得"},{"start":100.08,"end":126.131,"text":"這太草率需要去退回那我們來講是不是今天大家是不是在護航我們的衛福部那部長絕對沒有這個意見應該這個委員應該不管是執政黨或是在野黨對衛福部的監督都是必要的所以我想也不會是涉及到"},{"start":126.571,"end":145.941,"text":"對,因為我們認為2016同樣的事情同樣的狀況當時不質疑我們主席迴避的問題為什麼同樣的狀況那今天就質疑我們主席要迴避討論一個社會安全網給大眾一個說清楚講明白的機會我覺得應該沒有這麼難而且讓我們衛福部來針對問題解決問題我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":154.046,"end":181.537,"text":"立委部分的話當然立委有他的理由這我們不辯評好沒關係那只是說向大家瞭解一下當時的時空背景我們不希望這個質詢變成政治的操作政治的炒作那我請問一下我們兒福聯盟是不是全國性的組織那針對兒福聯盟所以他是全國性的組織所以其實他應該是不屬於地方政府管轄的對不對"},{"start":183.057,"end":206.286,"text":"他是教育部主管的文教基金會對,所以他是全國性的組織嘛那而且重點,兒福聯盟他這個許可是不是由我們衛福部來發放的就這個收出養的這個業務的許可的話對,所以針對收出養這部分我們衛福部是監管的全責單位嘛"},{"start":208.052,"end":228.547,"text":"好,那所以我們針對我們這一次我們的肋額的致死案那我請問一下這次涉案的保姆是兒福聯盟的嗎?是由他交給他們,他都跟他有合作的關係那這就是一種契約的行為那所以兒福聯盟是由我們衛福部來監管的嗎?"},{"start":230.591,"end":257.399,"text":"對 但是就業務上面的話所以沒關係重點所以其實嚴格來講這次虐兒致死案我們衛福部其實是有這個監督的責任這應該沒有問題吧我們是對這個機構來做監督對 所以我們不會去進入美案或者是例行日常所以我們沒關係所以我們兒福聯盟這一件虐兒致死案"},{"start":257.859,"end":275.76,"text":"其實衛福部針對監管的部分是有一個不可逃脫的責任這當然是所以我們會加強監管所以據我們了解在112年12月25號我們市府臺北市政府社會局說他就有接貨"},{"start":276.801,"end":291.753,"text":"而保案通報那當然他也立刻派員那後來市府受理通報後這個是針對新聞稿然後這個據我們查詢也是這個樣子那有陳駕我們衛福部的"},{"start":292.813,"end":318.926,"text":"保護服務司來釐清是否符合重大兒童及少年虐待事件防制小組實施計畫那當時我們保護司表示這個計畫是針對兒少遭父母監護人或其他實際照顧者重大虐待的事件也就是我們講的家內但是這件行為人是保姆是屬於家外所以不適用"},{"start":319.506,"end":343.915,"text":"後來社會局也在12月27號去洽詢針對這個部分但是社家署表示因涉及署內跨科室的業務是否要召開重大檢討會議尚在研議中可是目前社會局說其實一直以來後面他們都沒有接獲任何的回應那我想請問一下我們衛福部在這個是監督之下"},{"start":344.335,"end":360.448,"text":"我們這個機制我們覺得是不是失禮是不是應該要好好的來檢討一下這個是事後不管監討會議怎麼樣召開的話都不會防止說這位流行兒童他的死亡"},{"start":361.649,"end":378.517,"text":"事後的檢討,事後的檢討已經一個兒童,因為這一個整個的機制,結果就是死亡。這當然是重大惡劣,這為什麼還要問?根本不需要問的事情。"},{"start":378.877,"end":392.845,"text":"可是可是這個有洽詢我們衛福部衛福部還回復說這個是屬於家內的不是他們規範的我也對我們部內的單位我們的同仁做出了一個訊示這個"},{"start":396.888,"end":418.726,"text":"所以部長是不是我們下面的這些承辦的主管針對這一部分而且當時人家社會局已經通報了他說這個不在我這個計畫裡面他是屬於家內那保姆屬於家外所以後來再洽詢你們也沒有回覆那我們只是瞭解其實在這第一時間社會局確實是有通報只是後來衛福部"},{"start":423.089,"end":437.759,"text":"通報是一件事情通報是一件事情他本來就應該要通報這樣我們知道有這件事情發生但是他去詢問說要不要開這個就多餘因為他不懂得應該是往他的"},{"start":438.559,"end":456.169,"text":"主管去詢問要不要開那這部分當然我也希望針對這已經看到這個機制上後來我也聽說後來我們衛福部也把保姆也納入所以才去做討論所以當初應該我們下面的承辦的"},{"start":457.33,"end":474.344,"text":"對於家內家外有不同的見解所以認定是家內所以當時不受理後來因為事件爆發之後才把保姆列入家內所以我希望衛福部針對這部分好好的檢討因為我們可以看得到這個事情又是民眾舉發檢舉之後這事情才出來"},{"start":477.166,"end":500.49,"text":"我覺得這跟蘇丹紅真的是異曲同工之妙都是民眾舉發我們衛福部才出來處理我覺得前面所有的機制又失靈了等到民眾舉發我們再來好好的檢討那當然雖然沒有超前部署但是亡羊補牢也是沒有辦法中的辦法希望針對這些部分我們好好的去做改善"},{"start":501.19,"end":516.813,"text":"當然所以今天提出來的一個檢討報告也就是針對這一些問題好我希望這檢討報告還是要好好加強因為社會大眾對這個檢討報告是真的不滿意那我再請問一下我們請我們社公司我請問一下我們目前"},{"start":528.444,"end":553.649,"text":"根據我們統計全國政府部門社工有多少人?我們目前有的是一年底的數字大概是7928那是公的嘛我看一下私的好像總共私的好像有一萬出夠所以總共有一萬八千多對不對?是好 那我請問一下我們現在社福相關部門這個社工目前來講到底夠不夠?"},{"start":555.848,"end":580.047,"text":"如果以我們就是全國人口的社工的人力比的確跟其他國家比是來的負擔高一點所以我也看你們去年新聞就有報出你衛福部有針對全國社會安全網的計畫你們就有說要增加4190人的社工可是據我們了解目前只找到3400人那你們的報告從頭到尾也沒有"},{"start":580.547,"end":582.869,"text":"跟委員報告的確行政院核定給我們市安網的人力第二期是從11年到114年"},{"start":599.725,"end":605.388,"text":"那總共要增加的人數每年的都不一樣那我們每個月都有做這個禁用人數的一個統計那也跟縣市來檢討說怎麼協助他們可以增加所以因為我們希望針對社工這一部分要盡快補強"},{"start":614.913,"end":636.639,"text":"因為你們有提出這個9點的改進措施那目前我們看到你這社工數就不夠你提這個9點措施我想請問一下你到時候提出就算再好的計畫沒有人去做沒有人去執行到時候一樣是漏洞百出那你今天提出這個計畫你並沒有提出說如何去補強這個社工人數啊"},{"start":638.593,"end":654.47,"text":"提出九點方面的改善措施接下來當然就是要做這件事情針對這些改善措施我們會召集地方政府那一起來做討論需要多少的人力有什麼樣的困難需要多少的預算經費"},{"start":656.192,"end":685.469,"text":"那其實針對這個社工招募卜益據我們了解111年我們了解我們這個兒福聯盟他這個總資產有45.9億可是在薪資的部分據我們查他只佔2億所以算起來這個前線的社工他算起來領下來都不到4萬塊可是我們蓋大樓動不動就3億4億那錢這樣子用不知道部長衛福部這邊知道他們使用錢的情況"},{"start":685.609,"end":701.986,"text":"我們會進一步去做了解因為我剛剛跟委員報告那兒福聯盟是屬於文教基金會它的主管機關應該是教育部所以這個部分的話當然我們會跟教育部一起來討論我希望這個部分還是要多注意因為"},{"start":702.906,"end":727.993,"text":"這個有關於我們社工招募的問題而且我們了解它收入9億裡面很多都是捐款可是它每年用喔用不到50%那我不知道說人家捐款捐那麼多你很多的費用你不去用在這些該使用的上面爆發很多社工招募不易等等的問題然後等到推了很多的政策跟措施卻沒有社工去執行我覺得這個部長應該要好好來去重視喔"},{"start":730.994,"end":755.228,"text":"因為我覺得這個事情爆發居然已經爆發了那可是我針對衛福部真的一個良心的建議從我們前面食藥署再到這個虐兒事件全部都是民眾檢舉像食安五環到最後一環民眾檢舉然後這個虐兒事件也是民眾檢舉再來好好檢討再來好好改善我希望能夠"},{"start":756.469,"end":756.649,"text":"衛福部"},{"start":785.56,"end":787.674,"text":"好,謝謝涂委員的質詢。接下來"}]}},{"id":"150032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8d952b369f8d9247ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a65a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"13:01:19 - 13:09:14","影片長度":"00:07:55","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":475,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:09:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:01:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.51784375,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.67346875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.96034375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.06096875,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.79034375,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.39346875,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.03784375,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.56909375,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.42534375,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.27221875,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.909093750000004,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":55.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.329718750000005,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.38846875,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.74596875,"end":69.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.39971875,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.08221875000001,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.24221875,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.15221875,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.58221875000001,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.79284375,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.69534375,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.99721875,"end":110.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.68034375,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.48971875000001,"end":116.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.95784375000001,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.15159375,"end":120.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.42971875,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.21846875000001,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.36409375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.65471875,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.40971875,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.76784375,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.64909375000002,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.75846875000002,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.11909375000002,"end":169.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.94534375,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":174.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.04159375,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.52221875,"end":178.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.83846875,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.24721875,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.23846875,"end":186.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.33846875,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.68346875,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.28159375,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.31096875,"end":207.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.23471875,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.46221875,"end":211.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.50409375,"end":214.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.01846875,"end":215.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.89596875,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.81971875000002,"end":218.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.82346875000002,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.71346875,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.09721875000002,"end":225.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.76346875000002,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.38659375,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.17096875000001,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.77846875,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.25909375,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.61659375000002,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.18596875000003,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.46596875,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.34534375000004,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.82596875,"end":318.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.41159375,"end":321.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.51659375,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.19971875000005,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.99284375,"end":325.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.61721875,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.23284375000003,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.92471875,"end":331.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.79346875000005,"end":335.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.26971875000004,"end":338.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.31534375,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.63159375000004,"end":342.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.47534375000004,"end":347.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.50409375000004,"end":353.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.74784375,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.62096875000003,"end":357.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.11846875000003,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.09284375000004,"end":376.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.56784375,"end":375.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.22096875,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.50221875,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.36221875,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.30221875,"end":403.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.37284375,"end":443.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.62409375000004,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.98971875,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.98471875,"end":458.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.33471875000004,"end":459.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.26284375,"end":461.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.62971875000005,"end":462.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.72659375,"end":472.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.74221875,"end":475.56846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.566,"end":13.709,"text":"主席,我請我們內政部林部長好,有請林部長謝謝主席部長,兩個問題啦一個社子島開發第二個大灣北段我先說最近我看你們內政部的一些表現作為我覺得你們好像有點數饅頭的心態啦"},{"start":33.358,"end":54.297,"text":"好像大家等著照畢業照的所以那些回答都蠻敷衍的啦比方說我現在先談社子島的開發我想社子島開發我相信部長也有相當的用心力但是整體給我們社會大眾尤其社子島居民的感覺覺得"},{"start":56.567,"end":83.533,"text":"你們都是原地踏步沒有任何的進展我相信設施島你去看過就曉得那是幾乎已經到了不人道的對待啦設施島過了晚上八點像個鬼島一樣啦沒什麼公共建設外生下水道沒有連一個基本的不要說醫院連一個診所都沒有"},{"start":84.878,"end":89.31,"text":"路燈愛亮不亮亮一邊沒有任何的地標惡臭不堪"},{"start":93.25,"end":109.819,"text":"攝氏島的居民忍受了70年好不容易30年前開始提到要開發政府先是問肚子餓了你要吃中餐還是西餐牛排好不好義大利麵好不好還是吃刺身麵問了30年問到現在還是回到原點肚子餓了你要吃什麼拜託"},{"start":117.008,"end":140.542,"text":"你先給碗白飯吧總可以吧不是嗎這樣子欺負人那麼現在各項的民意調查97.5%的社址島居民都贊成要開發而且我們贊成的這個案是已經經過十幾二十年跟市政府的會商這叫社址島生態開發"},{"start":144.909,"end":169.158,"text":"生態設施島的計畫可以滿足包括我們設施島居民也滿足環保團體的要求也滿足全體市民對設施島這樣兩岸流域難得的我們可以促進成為一個水岸城市這是共同的一個看法嘛結果送進來內政部三拖兩不拖就拖了三年多"},{"start":170.397,"end":197.248,"text":"拖了三年多每次都大概大家耐性都耐不住就稍微問一下那內政部從先前幾年下來每次每拖了一年大家問就回一張文回個文簡簡單單五六十個字就打發掉意思就是說當地還有不同的意見那還要找各界再來研議"},{"start":199.269,"end":218.297,"text":"隨隨便便搞了一年多回一個文五六十個字拜託一天寫一個字也不用拖一年啊結果這樣三拖兩不拖就搞了三年多啦所以我認為部長我希望在你卸任之前以你的專業以我們大家對你的理解"},{"start":227.026,"end":249.423,"text":"過去你在各項職務上面你的優良表現我相信你可以給社子島的開發做一個更精確的一個回覆跟判斷第一點現在就可以答應開發不是嗎現在就可以馬上進行不是嗎第二點現在在主腦在推研的還有什麼理由你的看法呢"},{"start":250.196,"end":265.881,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員的指教我非常的贊成社址島的民眾應該要有更好的一個生活所以這個案子我也非常重視所以我上任之後我自己親自我開了不下10次的專案會議就是要去釐清這個問題"},{"start":267.521,"end":284.635,"text":"我們非常希望臺北市政府有一個東西必須要確定也就是我那天跟蔣市長碰面的時候特別提到進到社子島的輕軌的系統臺北市必須要確定而且騎乘必須要出來"},{"start":285.436,"end":285.456,"text":"吳蔣英﹗"},{"start":314.646,"end":340.458,"text":"秦桂計劃秦桂計劃要確定秦桂這是很好我相信對設施到未來那在居住在使用上面確實這個會很大的幫助他是必要的你所不知的就是說臺北市現在光是北環東環南環光這三段因為這三年疫情那物價"},{"start":341.698,"end":356.357,"text":"公知大幅上漲關於這3條我們現在差了就440億這是另外一個問題是我們市政府要來跟中央來請求補助的地方所以啊這個社子島的輕軌"},{"start":358.694,"end":376.619,"text":"我用三個字啦 台灣話講 寫信文啦 不用啦 先感謝 我們可以預留這個軌道這個路線下來嘛 但是不能以這個條件來框住社之道 那時間有限我再跟你提一下大灣北段喔 大灣北段那也是一個很離譜的事情"},{"start":377.9,"end":401.501,"text":"人民有免於恐懼的自由住在大灣北段這1895每天成王成孔為什麼就怕市府來分區使用不當分區使用不符合他們會開罰這開罰6萬元一次可以連續罰第二次也是在6萬第三次除了罰金還要斷水斷電"},{"start":404.414,"end":420.017,"text":"道安北段絕大多數的居民窮一生之力難得買了這麼一戶房子要安家立業的結果要被這樣子所謂的使用分區不服而這個使用分區不服是建商導致的"},{"start":420.658,"end":432.725,"text":"如果使用分區不符要導政回來過去就應該這一筆貸金回饋金就應該由建商來繳我們政府應該要的是要去要這些建商這十幾家建商蓋的這1890戶結果現在這1890戶透過市府透過議會說啊我們願意自己繳也算了一個金額"},{"start":443.612,"end":458.221,"text":"一品算47,500送來內政部也是一拖拖三年不好意思霍主席因為難得有機會抱怨一下所以我跟部長講一下部長好不好這兩個案子我認為都這個"},{"start":460.542,"end":469.626,"text":"獲不容緩或迫不及待應該要趕快做一個明確的才是才對依你的專業我相信你可以做得到好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab5172ee624e2fd75ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a69afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:53:47 - 13:00:28","影片長度":"00:06:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":401,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:00:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:53:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1105,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時53分）謝謝主席。我想請林部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我今天有兩個問題，就是臺北市送到內政部有兩個很重大的議案，從我在臺北市當副市長卸任到現在，內政部都還沒有什麼進展，主要是有一個部長也很清楚的部分，就是大彎北段，這個案子送到內政部，在105年被監察院糾正，然後臺北市政府已經按照相關的都市計畫相關的要求，做一些相關的規劃，也送到內政部，整整快5年了，5年的時間，我認為，對的決定要做，不對的決定也要做，不做決定是不對的。拖了5年，這5年，我知道中央跟對方一直有來來往往，我也曾經拜訪過前任的徐國勇部長，所以我想問一下，到底現在整個大彎北段，中央的意見是什麼？還有未來的類似狀況能不能夠再避免？"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員的關心，我上任之後其實也針對這個案子做了許多……"],["黃委員珊珊：你應該滿清楚的。"],["林部長右昌：我也做了一些瞭解。目前的進度是這樣子，內政部給市政府幾點建議，第一個就是請市政府依照建物使用執照時間、次序，第二個是違規使用與否，還有第三是變更之後使用的項目，第四是強度，第五是房價。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個我都知道，你認為這些問題需要討論5年嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，當然不需要……"],["黃委員珊珊：108年9月送進去……"],["林部長右昌：當然不需要討論5年。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["林部長右昌：我上任之後，很積極地請他們做溝通，目前……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以問題在哪呢？"],["林部長右昌：目前臺北市回應這幾點意見，對於都委會的意見，臺北市只同意一項。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意它是一個前無古人的案例。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：必須要訂出一些原則，如果中央有很多的意見，應該訂出一個規範，一個以後不要再發生的防弊措施，然後這個案子，部長，你覺得要怎麼解決？是按照臺北市的方案去計算金額，還是直接把它們拆光光？"],["林部長右昌：當然都不是。第一個是，我們有提了一些建議，目前臺北市的回應是6項裡面其中1項，就是空地的部分，他們有同意，我們希望可以針對他們不同意的其他5項，應該還有空間，這樣子會比較符合公平的原則。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，很簡單，有什麼問題，一次講清楚，不要這樣來來回回四、五年。"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果一個民眾這樣等了5年，他也不知道他的房子將來怎麼辦，我覺得這樣是不對的。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：無論如何，一個政府不可以放在那邊擺5年，然後沒有任何進展。"],["林部長右昌：委員講這句話，我非常同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：不管您有沒有留任，在520之前，是不是應該有個初步的方案？"],["林部長右昌：我非常希望，所以比如說，像之前我們在處理社子島的案子的時候，我也是直接跟蔣市長溝通。大彎段這個部分，我們也打算這樣子來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，重點是時間，趕快做決定，我要補什麼資料，每一次都是補一點、補一點，2月、5月、10月各補充一份資料，我看了這個東西，就覺得我們內政部不應該是這樣的效能。地方政府出狀況，內政部應該引導它朝向正向的方向走。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分就是你剛剛講的社子島的案子，社子島的案子也是一樣，送進來以後，現在是區段徵收後面的相關安置計畫，所以部長，我想問一下，我跟你們調資料，從3月1日調資料調到現在，3月8日說部長把公文退回，所以我到今天3月18日還調不到任何社子島相關進度的資料，這是怎麼回事？是部長不想給我公文嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼部長把公文退回說我要再等呢？"],["林部長右昌：抱歉，委員，我跟你報告一下，最主要是因為……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們都要看新聞才能知道內政部的訊息嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是。跟委員報告一下，因為我跟蔣市長碰面是一個非常重大的改變……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們很關心，我們才需要知道內容，如果那些內容我們都不清楚的話，我們怎麼做？這不是很重大嗎？"],["林部長右昌：當然重大。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該要讓委員知道吧？我調了18天的資料。"],["林部長右昌：是。很抱歉，委員，我會請地政司趕快給你送過去。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的進度如何？部長。"],["林部長右昌：現在的進度就是我跟蔣市長基本上有共識，因為之前的大的都市計畫還有交通的問題，基本上方向是值得檢討，蔣市長也同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：有沒有時程？不要說同意，時程怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，你也知道，捷運、輕軌的方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有兩個問題，第一個，5%的社宅能不能做到裡面？"],["林部長右昌：不需要，因為它的負擔已經超過50%，那一天我們有溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以裡面不留社宅？"],["林部長右昌：不是，它裡面有要遷移的專用……"],["黃委員珊珊：那個是當地的。"],["林部長右昌：對，是安置的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有社會住宅？"],["林部長右昌：我們不要求臺北市要在裡面再多增加社宅，這一點我們可以同意，因為它的負擔已經超過百分之五十。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分就是安置戶，現在最擔心的就是這些人的安置，還有所謂的剔除，我只需要知道內政部有沒有規劃的時程，把時程告訴我們，我想，所有的居民都在等，臺北的最後發展也是這一塊。"],["林部長右昌：我也很希望能夠儘快讓它定案，不過我跟委員報告一下，它有兩個問題，第一個最重要是交通的問題必須要先定案，所以我在這個禮拜也會去拜訪侯友宜市長，把這個部分再把它……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，這些事情大家都很關心，所以把相關的進度都一一的跟我們做說明。"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：可以有一個完整的書面報告，而不是這樣拖了18天，這實在太離譜了。"],["林部長右昌：抱歉，這個我們會儘快補上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢，也謝謝部長的回應，希望委員要的資料真的不要拖那麼久好不好，謝謝。","繼續我們請陳雪生、陳雪生、陳雪生委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","傅崐萁、傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","陳俊宇、陳俊宇、陳俊宇委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","繼續請王世堅委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.98659375,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.11471875,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.78909375,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.49721875,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.22659375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.43284375,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.617843750000006,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.12346875,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.18534375,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.92346875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.21846875,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.89284375000001,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.92596875000001,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.54971875000001,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.93471875,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.49096875000001,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.12784375000001,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.71409375,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.00284375000001,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.66909375,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.15721875,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.23659375,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.16409375,"end":165.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.69284375,"end":167.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.45909375000002,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.53409375,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.39034375,"end":191.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.12346875,"end":203.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.50971875000002,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.21221875,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.53284375,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.28721875000002,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.30409375000002,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.24909375000001,"end":226.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.54409375,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.52784375000002,"end":251.85659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.27409375000002,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.96971875,"end":257.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.23971875,"end":257.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.27346875,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.29034375000003,"end":257.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.67846875000004,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.55534375,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":275.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.78596875,"end":274.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.75596875,"end":279.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.04221875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.80159375,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.14721875000004,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.54784375,"end":283.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.83471875000004,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.01596875,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.39971875000003,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.68659375000004,"end":286.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.73721875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.58909375,"end":291.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.09096875,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.11409375,"end":307.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.87346875000003,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.43846875,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.96971875,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.17971875,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.17534375,"end":318.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.22596875,"end":318.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.29346875000005,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.41159375,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.42846875000004,"end":318.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.44534375,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.97659375,"end":330.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.50784375,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.71784375000004,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.61221875,"end":336.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.28659375,"end":339.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.46346875,"end":339.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.01159375000003,"end":340.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.85534375000003,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.77784375000005,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.24534375,"end":357.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.79784375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.43034375,"end":364.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.72534375000004,"end":363.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.36221875,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.42971875,"end":364.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.51409375000003,"end":375.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.85409375,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.49471875,"end":390.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.12221875,"end":388.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.82659375000003,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.63659375000003,"end":393.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.37034375,"end":400.32284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.697,"end":30.306,"text":"臺北市送到內政部有兩個很重大的議案然後到現在從我在臺北市副市長卸任到現在內政部都還沒有什麼進展主要有一個可能部長也清楚的是大灣北段"},{"start":31.407,"end":55.067,"text":"當北戴安送到內政部．他在105年被監察院糾正．然後臺北市政府按照相關的都市計劃．並相關的要求做一些相關的規劃．那也送到內政部整整快5年了．5年的時間我認為對的決定要做．不對的決定也要做．不做決定是不對的"},{"start":56.158,"end":75.363,"text":"也就是拖了5年這5年我知道中央跟地方一直有來來往往我也曾經拜訪過前任的徐國勇部長所以我想問一下到底現在整個大灣北段中央的意見是什麼還有未來的類似的狀況能不能夠再避免"},{"start":78.13,"end":104.069,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心我想我上任之後其實也針對這個案子做了許多雷電所以我也做了一些了解那目前的一個進度是這樣子我們這個內政部給市政府幾點建議第一個就是請市政府依照建物使用的執照時間次序第二個是違規使用與否還有第三是併根之後使用項目還有強度那第五是房價這個我都知道你認為這些問題需要討論五年嗎"},{"start":109.774,"end":132.53,"text":"當然必須要討論我個人因為我上任之後大概很積極的請他們做溝通那目前台北市回來大概他們回應的意見是這幾點多委會的意見台北市指這個同意一下我同意它是一個前無古人的案例必須要定出一些原則如果中央有很多的意見應該定出一個規範"},{"start":134.451,"end":159.197,"text":"一個以後不要再發生的防備的措施然後這個案子部長你覺得要怎麼解決是按照台北市的方案去計算金額還是直接把他們拆光光當然都不是第一個是我們也提了一些建議那目前台北市回的是指六項裡面其中一項就是空地的部分他們有同意那我們希望就是說其實可以針對其他"},{"start":160.437,"end":182.111,"text":"他們不同意的五項應該還有空間這樣子會比較符合公平的一個原則所以部長很簡單需要有什麼問題一次講清楚不用這樣再來會不會是當然如果一個民眾他這樣等了五年他也不知道他的房子將來怎麼辦我覺得這樣是不對的是無論如何一個政府不可以放在那邊150年然後沒有任何進展"},{"start":182.771,"end":202.399,"text":"委員講這句話我非常同意是不是可以在您的不管您有沒有留任在520之前應該有個初步的方案了吧我非常希望所以比如說像之前我們在處理社子島的時候我也是直接跟蔣市長直接溝通是的大彎段的這一個部分我們也打算這樣子來做"},{"start":203.519,"end":216.661,"text":"好,重點是時間趕快做決定如果有要什麼補資料每一次都是補一點補一點二月五月十月各補充一個資料我看了這個東西就覺得我們內政部不應該是這樣的效能啊"},{"start":217.991,"end":237.245,"text":"政府出狀況內政部應該引導他朝向正向的方向走是當然第二個部分就是您剛剛講的社子島社子島也是一樣送進來現在是居然徵收他後面的相關的安置計畫所以部長我想問一下我跟你們調資料我從3月5號調資料調到現在"},{"start":238.766,"end":248.496,"text":"三月八號說部長把公文退回所以我到三月十八號今天還調不到任何涉及到相關進度的資料這是怎麼回事勒是部長不想給我公文嗎倒不是"},{"start":253.462,"end":276.484,"text":"為什麼說部長把公文退回說我要再等啊 時間 我要跟您報告一下 因為最主要是因為我們都要看新聞才能知道內政部的訊息嗎 倒不是 跟委員報告一下 因為我跟蔣事長碰面是一個非常重大的一個改變 所以我們很關心啊 我們才需要知道內容啊 是 如果這個內容我們都不清楚的話 怎麼"},{"start":277.945,"end":278.165,"text":"獲得10天資料"},{"start":308.445,"end":316.048,"text":"不要說同意,那時程怎麼樣?對,有兩個問題嘛。第一個,他5%的社宅能不能做到裡面?他不需要,因為他的負擔已經超過50%,在那一天我們有溝通。所以一定不留社宅?"},{"start":330.954,"end":358.812,"text":"不是,它裡面有那個就是要清移的專用的那個是當地安置的對,那是安置的我們不強加,不要求臺北市要在裡面再多增加社宅這一點我們是可以同意的因為它的負擔已經超過50%第二個部分就是安置戶嘛現在最擔心的就是這些人的安置還有所謂的剔除我只需要知道內政部有沒有規劃的時程"},{"start":360.695,"end":360.935,"text":"﹚黃珊珊"},{"start":388.689,"end":390.974,"text":"希望這個委員要的資料真的不要拖那麼久好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a6ef7c6cdc0a472cfccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:44:14 - 12:53:43","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":569,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:53:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:44:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時44分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。首先感謝部長，過去我們都非常關心原住民地區的警力，現在我們看到警察越來越少，所以我們也希望在外面的原住民籍警察有機會依照他們的意願返籍服務，返鄉服務。在上一週我看到內政部的回函，針對這個部分，讓我們知道有去修改辦法了，未來我們原鄉的警察要返籍會變得更順暢，在這邊謝謝。但是除了返籍服務，我們也要去看還有沒有可以做的事情。過去質詢時我一直關心一件事，原住民把警察當作是一個大家很願意投入的職業，在高峰期，原住民警察在所有警察裡面占比高達百分之七、八，可是您看一下，光是這十年，因為進入的管道窄了，加上大量的退休，光是這十年，就從4.2%一直下降到百分之二點多，已經不到3%，針對這個現象，我們就想說開源節流，那是不是能夠開一些門，我們就希望警政署可不可以去增加原住民的警察考科。非常謝謝部長，也非常謝謝署長，從之前我們質詢的過程當中，我們發現你們都是支持的、肯定的、積極的，考選部那邊也是這樣的，可是警政署說希望在一般警察的類科去增設原住民行政類，可是我現在就是想要問一下部長跟署長，關於這個意見，目前辦理的進度，你們知不知道考選部的意見？"],["林部長右昌：這部分我先請黃署長來做個說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，考選部的意見是希望在警察特考裡面來辦理，不希望在行政體系的部分來增加警察考科。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。其實考選部也是很支持，但是他們的見解不同，他們是希望在原特裡面去增加行政警察人員類科，跟你們的意見是不一樣的，但是也是很支持，他們的理由是什麼？他們說，落實原民特考的精神，所以要在原住民族特考裡面增加行政警察類科，取代警政署提出的意見。也就是說，在警察特考中加入原住民族行政的考科，因為依照新增類科處理要點的規定，不可以在同一個考試中新增同樣職務的類科。那我想要請教一下部長或署長，如果按照考選部支持的這個方案，那警政署這邊會碰到什麼問題？"],["黃署長明昭：可能未來涉及到後續的任用及轉到其他行政體系的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼會有問題？"],["黃署長明昭：我請人事主任來說明。"],["許主任淑貞：通過原住民特考後任用者，限制轉調時間可能是3年，可是通過警察特考後任用者限制轉調時間是6年，加上可能涉及到任官問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個有很嚴重嗎？不能夠解決嗎？"],["許主任淑貞：對，因為影響到原住民同仁的權益，所以我們還是要跟考選部溝通，現在目前在積極溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們還在積極溝通？"],["許主任淑貞：是，是。因為考選部有開過會了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我一開始找警政署來問的時候，你們是說，因為原民特考不是國家考試，說最好是國家考試，你們才能夠轉銜，但是我現在要講的就是說，公務人員考試法特別提到，為因應特殊機關之需要及保障身心障礙者、原住民族之就業權益，可以比照前項考試之等級，舉行一、二、三、四、五等之特種考試，其實這個就是我們原住民族特考授權的母法，是從公務人員考試法授權的。現在我們來看一下，如果先修正警察人員人事條例施行細則，就修了第四條，所以就有「指依公務人員考試法所舉行之高等考試、普通考試、初等考試或特種考試之警察人員考試及格」，所以在這個地方，我們就發現這個解釋就不一樣了。我在想，這個部分，因為你們剛剛有提到，你們也跟考選部已經在積極溝通，所以是不是可以在兩週內提出一個方向？"],["許主任淑貞：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。非常感謝。","另外，我就是想問一下，因為在今天內政部的業務報告當中我有看到，為落實司法院釋字第803號解釋，推動「原住民漁民自製獵槍魚槍許可及管理辦法」的立法工作，從112年5月起，辦理了8場分區座談，蒐集各界意見，以提升自製獵槍的安全性。那我也要特別先感謝部長、署長，謝謝。之前我們要求你們再重新去辦分區座談，你們也都做到，而且我記得不是8場而已，你們還加了1場，應該是再加宜蘭，變成8場加1場──9場。那我現在要問說，請問，你們現在在蒐集意見嗎？有沒有哪些需要再修的？"],["林部長右昌：我請黃署長說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員。我們在蒐集意見的時候，也有提到，自製獵槍也要納編到辦法裡面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，這是你們蒐集到的意見嘛？"],["黃署長明昭：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["黃署長明昭：基本上還有委員的提醒，基本上我們也是同意雙軌制，安全的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們在等你們何時重新公告，好不好？因為我本來有很多想要問你們的問題，釋字第803號解釋及最高法院的判決出來之後，照理說槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例也要把這部分修進去，所以我也想知道，你們重新公告有沒有包含這些內容？還有包括自製獵槍的部分，因為時間的關係，我再另外提書面，也希望你們可以到辦公室來討論，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，好，沒問題。原民會會在3月份再開會，就安全的部分跟國防部一起討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。原民會其實有一個原住民族司法諮詢委員會，我是希望未來針對非制式獵槍訂定諮詢跟確認的機制，其實都可以善用原民會的原住民族司法諮詢委員會，好不好？"],["主席：非常謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，OK。謝謝部長、署長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：在這邊也跟伍委員說明一下，我開了3次的協調會，也把國防部納進來了，在我們的魚槍、獵槍自製的範圍裡面，第一，原住民的自製已經可以雙軌制了，以前警政署可能只有單軌，就是用進口的這些零件做成一把槍之後，原住民才可以買，但是現在因為我開了3次協調會，現在國防部也進來了，警政署也進來了，原民會也進來了，國防部將會對槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例裡面5個合格的零組件的部分修改，變成原住民可以自製，我再跟委員說明一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我就想知道，國內的廠商也可以製作了？"],["主席：本來在辦法裡面，國內的本來是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：只要符合那個規格，國內廠商也可以製作，是嗎？"],["主席：對，對，對，對。是的，是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嗎？署長，部長。"],["主席：署長，你應該知道吧？就是只要進口的這些零件，國內符合的，變成一把槍，廠商是可以的，也在這個裡面……"],["黃署長明昭：進口零件只要符合安全規則就可以。"],["主席：對，對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那國內廠商呢？如果符合規格，也可以製作嗎？"],["主席：對啊，只要是進口的零組件是合法的，署長應該好好……"],["黃署長明昭：對，這個沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我現在是問，只要符合你們的辦法的規格、規定，國內廠商也可以製作嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：只要國防部認定符合安全規則的話，是可以來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以國內廠商也可以來製作？"],["黃署長明昭：這可以開放，這可以來做。"],["主席：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以確定國內廠商可以製作？"],["主席：現在已經有雙軌了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，因為如果是按照這個邏輯，只要符合規格，原住民也可以製作嘛，對不對？"],["主席：你們跟委員講一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為重點是符合規格，對不對？"],["主席：對，也就是槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例裡面有一個有關原住民獵槍零組件的條文，現在國防部已經要針對這5個零組件合法的部分來適用我們原住民自製獵槍。"],["林部長右昌：委員，剛剛的問題，是不是可以讓我們用書面再跟你補充說明？好不好？謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。OK。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。謝謝署長。謝謝伍委員的關心。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不好意思，時間的關係。好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：繼續我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.84846875,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.09284375,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.970343750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.98721875,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.661593750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.500343750000003,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.49034375,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.924718750000004,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.696593750000005,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.69596875,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.60284375,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.87534375,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.30534375,"end":124.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.43346875,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.93346875,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.30034375,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.99534375000002,"end":147.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.38346875000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.70784375000002,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.05784375000002,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.92846875,"end":198.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.86909375000002,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.80971875,"end":203.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":216.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.52034375000002,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.10659375,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.17409375000003,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.22034375,"end":222.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.83159375000002,"end":230.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.34096875,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.11284375000002,"end":235.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.80034375000002,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.18409375000002,"end":241.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.20846875,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.23784375000002,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.40971875000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.10534375,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.27221875000004,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.60221875,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.36159375,"end":370.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.19659375000003,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.98409375,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.35534375000003,"end":383.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.09346875,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.40534375000004,"end":385.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.45159375000003,"end":386.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.14284375,"end":424.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.06596875,"end":430.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.24221875,"end":446.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":447.28596875000005,"end":488.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.31971875000005,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.26471875000004,"end":449.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.69909375000003,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.22596875000005,"end":453.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.89659375,"end":455.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.81159375000004,"end":486.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.56659375000004,"end":490.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.31284375,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.99596875000003,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.44721875000005,"end":496.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":498.28221875,"end":506.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.09596875000005,"end":503.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.79596875000004,"end":507.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.50846875,"end":509.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":509.28471875,"end":509.65596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.65596875000006,"end":512.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":513.99284375,"end":520.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.15659375,"end":524.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":523.15596875,"end":523.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.1897187500001,"end":524.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.8772187500001,"end":524.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.8940937500001,"end":524.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.94471875,"end":529.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.31534375,"end":531.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.69471875,"end":532.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.38221875,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.7490937499999,"end":544.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.06971875,"end":535.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.43221875,"end":537.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.2084687500001,"end":538.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":538.9678437499999,"end":539.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.21159375,"end":549.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.2453437500001,"end":548.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":549.29534375,"end":562.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.0334687500001,"end":551.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.36659375,"end":553.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.7122187500001,"end":554.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.79659375,"end":554.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.23471875,"end":564.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.58846875,"end":563.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":563.65596875,"end":563.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.6728437500001,"end":568.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":564.02721875,"end":568.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.6003437500001,"end":568.6172187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.88,"end":9.982,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長有請您部長委員好部長好首先感謝因為過去我們都非常的關心就是原住民地區現在我們看到警察越來越少所以我們也希望外面的原住民級的警察呢也有機會依照他的意願反擊服務反向服務那謝謝"},{"start":34.699,"end":41.462,"text":"在上一週我看到內政部的回函有針對這個部分讓我們知道說有去修訂修改辦法了那未來呢我們的原鄉反擊呢會變得更順暢在這邊謝謝但是除了反擊服務我們也是要去看還有沒有可以做的事情那過去質詢我一直關心"},{"start":57.549,"end":75.622,"text":"原住民把我們的警察當作是一個大家很願意投入的職業曾經高峰期都高達原住民在我們的整個警察裡面高達有7、8%可是您看一下光是這10年"},{"start":77.924,"end":104.061,"text":"因為進入的管道窄了加上大量的退休光是這10年就從4.2%一直下降到2點多已經不到3%那這個現象我們就想說開源節流嘛那是不是能夠開一些門我們就希望說警政署可不可以去增加原住民的一個警察考科那非常謝謝部長也非常謝謝署長"},{"start":105.762,"end":128.246,"text":"從之前我們這個質詢的過程當中我們發現你們都是支持的肯定的積極的那考選部那邊呢也是這樣的可是警政署呢是說希望在一般警察的內科去增設原住民行政類可是我現在就是想要問一下部長跟署長關於你們這個意見目前辦理的進度你們知不知道考選部的意見"},{"start":136.33,"end":152.662,"text":"這部分我先請黃淑蘭教授說明跟委員報告那考選部的意見是說在希望在警察特考裡面來辦理對他不希望說在行政的體系的部分來增加的警察考科對"},{"start":153.582,"end":169.405,"text":"其實考選部也是很支持但是他的見解不同他是希望在原特裡面去增加行政警察人員類科啦跟你們的意見是不一樣的但是也是很支持那他的理由是什麼他說若實原民特考的精神"},{"start":170.466,"end":197.639,"text":"所以要在原住民族特考裡面增加行政警察類科取代警政署提出的意見也就是說在警察特考中加入原住民族行政的考科因為他說依照新增類科處理要點的規定他說不可以在同一個考試中新增同樣職務的類科那我想要請教一下部長或署長如果按照考選部的這個方案"},{"start":198.92,"end":202.643,"text":"因為這個是他們支持的方案 那請問警政署這邊會碰到什麼問題?為什麼會有問題?"},{"start":220.506,"end":221.868,"text":"有很嚴重嗎?不能夠解決嗎?"},{"start":236.269,"end":252.197,"text":"對,因為影響到原住民同仁的權益,所以我們還是要跟考選部這邊,現在目前在積極溝通所以你們還在積極溝通?是是是,因為考選部有參會會了其實我一開始找警政署來問的時候,其實你們是說因為原民特考不是國家考試啦"},{"start":253.397,"end":280.723,"text":"說最好是國家考試你們才能夠轉嫌但是我現在要講的就是說依照我們的公務人員考試法他有特別提到就是會因應特殊機關像是身心障礙者援助民族之就業權益可以比照前項考試舉行12345等類科的特種考試其實這個就是我們援助民族特考的授權的母法我們是從公務人員法這邊授權的"},{"start":281.843,"end":300.943,"text":"那現在我們來看一下齁如果說修正警察人員人事條例施行細則他就修了這個第4條所以呢就有了這樣的一個說只依公務人員考試所舉行的高考普考初考還有特種考試之警察人員考試及格"},{"start":301.463,"end":317.308,"text":"所以在這個地方我們就發現他的一個解釋就不一樣了啦所以我是在想說這個部分麻煩因為你們剛剛有提到你們也跟考選部已經在積極溝通嘛是不是可以在兩週內提出一個方向"},{"start":319.298,"end":344.471,"text":"可以齁好謝謝齁非常感謝好那另外一個我就是想問一下因為在今天的內政部的業報當中有看到未落實司法院的這個803號解釋推動原住民漁民自製獵槍漁槍的許可及管理辦法的立法工作然後112年5月起齁辦理了八場分區座談收集各件意見以提升自製獵槍的安全性齁"},{"start":345.111,"end":366.257,"text":"那我也要特別先感謝因為部長署長謝謝之前我們說要求你們再重新去辦分區座談你們也都做到而且我記得不是8場而已你們還加了一場應該是再加宜蘭8加1 9場那我現在要問說請問你們現在在收集意見嗎阿有沒有那些需要再修的"},{"start":368.77,"end":389.379,"text":"這個我請黃處長說明謝謝委員我想我們在收集意見的時候也有提到說是自治列槍的部分是也要那邊到那個我們辦法是那這是你們收集到的意見嗎好他基本上還有委員的支持是有一個提醒是這一方面可以那我們基本上我們也是同意雙國制"},{"start":391.16,"end":405.595,"text":"好 那我們再等你們何時重新公告好不好因為我這邊本來是有很多要針對我們的這個市自地出來的之後那我也想要問你們說再加上最高法院的判決照理說"},{"start":406.415,"end":423.393,"text":"槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例這個也要修進去所以我也想知道你們重新公告有沒有包含這些內容還有包括那個自製獵槍的部分那我想因為時間的關係我在另外提那個書面的也希望你們可以到辦公室來討論可以嗎"},{"start":425.175,"end":445.668,"text":"人民會會在3月份會再開會就安全的部分跟國安部一起做談判我也希望人民會它其實有一個原住民族司法諮詢委員會我是希望說這個部分未來針對非知識列槍定定的這一些諮詢跟確認的機制其實都可以善用人民會的這個原住民族司法諮詢委員會好不好"},{"start":447.552,"end":452.215,"text":"非常謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢我開了三次的協調會也把國防部納注進來了那麼在我們的這個漁槍獵槍自製的範圍裡面第一原住民的自製已經可以雙軌制了以前警政署可能只有單軌就是進口的這些零件做成了一把槍之後原住民才可以買它"},{"start":471.525,"end":490.275,"text":"但是現在因為我三次開了協調會現在國防部也進來了警政署也進來了原民會也進來了國防部會將對槍砲彈藥條例裡面五個合格的這些零組件把它變成原住民可以自製那我就想知道國內的廠商也可以製作了吼"},{"start":491.575,"end":496.541,"text":"只要符合那個規格國內廠商也可以製作﹖是嗎﹖署長部長﹖那國內廠商呢如果符合規格也可以製作嗎"},{"start":514.042,"end":514.883,"text":"國內廠商也可以製作嗎?所以國內廠商也可以來製作"},{"start":531.698,"end":532.519,"text":"對因為如果是按照這個邏輯只要符合規格原住民也可以製作嘛對不對"},{"start":545.287,"end":545.327,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a9714904bb5aa448eccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:36:40 - 12:43:53","影片長度":"00:07:13","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":433,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:43:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:36:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時36分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，我們有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：Nga'ay ho，委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好，Nga'ay ho，辛苦了。部長，我要跟你談不在籍投票，希望能夠從原住民族的立法委員開始實施不在籍投票。今年印尼在臺灣實施不在籍投票，在今年的2月14日，印尼的移工在臺灣實施不在籍投票，你看這個地址是花蓮瑞穗鄉，我的媽媽89歲，照顧我媽媽的外勞是印尼人，他在臺灣已經投票兩次了，今年2月14日，印尼的總統大選和國會議員選舉，我家外勞的老公8個月前來到臺灣，因為缺工，所以他進來了，他8個月前來，就有投票權，他不用申請，印尼政府直接就給他寄投票通知單，他不是到臺北投票，在花蓮就可以投票。我請外交部提供印尼在臺灣實施不在籍投票的資料，從103年就開始實施了，經過103年、108年、113年，已經3次了，我們自稱為民主法治國家，連在臺灣都沒有辦法實施不在籍投票，而印尼幅員遼闊，他們的移工到臺灣都可以直接實施不在籍投票，所以這個部分我們真的要改進，我們就從最簡單的做起，臺灣很小，跟印尼比，我們真的很小，但是我們卻沒有辦法做到，尤其是原住民立委的選區是臺澎金馬，每個地方都有投票所，是最容易實施的，對不對？是最容易實施的，我就不曉得為什麼我們要跑到這麼遠的地方去投票，所以你看看我們的投票率，原住民立法委員跟非原住民立法委員投票率差距這麼大，所以這個就是一個非常容易做的卻不做。本席提出公職選舉罷免法第十七條修正案，針對原住民立法委員先實施。我也提出總統副總統罷免法第十三條修正案，也是針對原住民立法委員先實施不在籍投票，卻是沒辦法做到。本席第1次提案是在105年，106年12月7日內政委員會審查通過，108年3月11日完成朝野協商，很遺憾的，沒有完成三讀，我上一屆也提了，這一次又提了。部長，可不可以先實施？這是最容易的。"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員，這些都研議過，因為國情的狀況真的還是不太一樣，第一個，比如說中央選舉，如果要這樣子做的話，大概會有76種選票，也就是區域立委分3種，然後有分政黨，有分山地跟平地原住民，所以加起來會有76種選票，在實際的選務上面會有執行上的困難，所以在政策上面還是希望從有一致性的選舉做起，比如說從公投案來先行，至於選舉的部分，可能還要再看後續推動的狀況。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你被同仁誤導了，我強調的是原住民立法委員先實施不在籍投票，跟你剛才講的完全無關。好，我們就講總統選舉，選區是臺澎金馬，對不對？原住民立法委員選舉選區也是臺澎金馬，有什麼困難？從上一屆我質詢中選會，他們都說完全沒有問題，在作業上完全沒有問題，在作業上完全沒有問題，所以這個是可以做的，我剛剛講的，人家從國外來到臺灣，都可以實施，我們只不過是在臺灣，而且範圍限縮再限縮，到原住民立法委員的選舉，中選會都說完全沒有困難，但是他們每次都說，因為這個法律不是他們主管的，是內政部主管的。部長，可以嗎？我們都有提案，請召委安排。"],["主席：好，希望部長能夠也樂觀其成。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來談宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例，這個法律當初審查的時候是我主持的，但是很多都沒有辦法被接受，所以現在已經實施一段時間了，請內政部把目前這個條例實施的結果，提個書面資料給我，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：多久可以？"],["林部長右昌：一個月內。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，一個月。好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝部長的回應。也謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。一個月之內送達，除了鄭委員辦公室之外，也給我們其他的原住民立法委員。好，謝謝。","繼續我們請王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員質詢。王鴻薇委員不在。","請張雅琳、張雅琳、張雅琳委員質詢。張雅琳委員不在。","繼續請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.52159375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.33534375,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.33096875,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.562843750000003,"end":30.473468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.03034375,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.90284375,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.32034375,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.48471875,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.939718750000004,"end":45.930968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.96471875,"end":45.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.42034375,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.81096875,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.84034375,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.08471875,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.924093750000004,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.32034375,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.01221875,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.42534375000001,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.68659375,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.25596875000001,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.38221875,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.52534375,"end":77.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.38159375000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.92971875,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.20784375000001,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.84471875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.34221875,"end":91.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.52721875,"end":92.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.23096875,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.64846875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.01096875,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.10346875,"end":105.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.58784375,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.67159375000001,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.14346875000001,"end":117.61596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.34159375,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.61971875,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.04971875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.47534375000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.28846875000002,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.87034375000002,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.74784375000002,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.95784375,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.68346875,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.35409375,"end":147.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.26534375,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.98659375,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.64409375,"end":155.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.38221875000002,"end":159.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.93846875,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.04346875000002,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.45659375000002,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.00471875000002,"end":170.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.41346875000002,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.13346875000002,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.09096875,"end":184.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.99784375000002,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.65159375000002,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.38909375,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.36784375000002,"end":197.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.37971875000002,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.74659375000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.83909375000002,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.68659375000001,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.51159375,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.45471875,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.38659375,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.29346875000002,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.83721875,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.87909375,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.46909375,"end":248.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.97096875000003,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.23221875000002,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.87346875000003,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.13471875000002,"end":255.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.59846875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.62346875000003,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.09159375,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.58471875000004,"end":264.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.33971875000003,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.11471875,"end":311.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.83534375,"end":311.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.10034375000004,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.15909375,"end":321.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.83721875000003,"end":322.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.18721875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.38096875,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.96721875000003,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.89096875,"end":329.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.02159375,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.94971875000005,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.08034375,"end":333.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.81846875,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.48471875,"end":338.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.28596875,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.51346875,"end":342.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.28534375000004,"end":344.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.27221875000004,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.41971875,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.45721875000004,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.56659375000004,"end":353.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.26659375,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.81784375,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.29846875000004,"end":368.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.00284375,"end":371.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.74909375000004,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.28409375,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.69721875000005,"end":381.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.12721875,"end":383.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.66284375000004,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.99971875,"end":390.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.60721875,"end":393.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.79659375,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.63971875000004,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.00659375000004,"end":399.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.40721875,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.93784375,"end":411.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.48971875,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.34596875000005,"end":415.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.25284375,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.37909375000004,"end":421.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.72034375000004,"end":424.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.96034375000005,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.15846875000005,"end":427.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.82909375,"end":428.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.06534375,"end":433.56659375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.573,"end":37.231,"text":"主席有請部長我們有請您部長部長好辛苦了部長跟你談不再起投票希望能夠從原住民族的立法委員實施不再起投票我們看這個今年"},{"start":38.376,"end":63.329,"text":"印尼在臺灣實施不再起投票在今年的2月14日印尼的外勞在我們來說外勞印尼的移工在臺灣實施不再起投票這個你看這個地址這個下面的地址是花蓮瑞穗鄉我的媽媽89歲"},{"start":68.482,"end":95.408,"text":"照顧我媽媽的老公外勞是印尼的他在台灣已經投票兩次了那今年2月14日印尼的總統大選還有國會議員這個他的老公我的外勞我家的外勞的老公8個月前來到台灣因為切工所以他進來了"},{"start":97.264,"end":97.764,"text":"外交部提供"},{"start":120.663,"end":130.092,"text":"印尼在台灣實施不再舉投票103年就開始了103年108年113年已經三次了所以這個部分我們真的是我們自稱為民主法治國家連在台灣我們都沒辦法實施"},{"start":144.972,"end":160.966,"text":"所以這個真的是印尼幅員遼闊他們的移工到臺灣都可以直接就實施所以這個部分這個部長真的是要我們就先從最簡單的為什麼原住民族我們非常這個臺灣很小要跟印尼比我們真的很小但是我們卻沒有辦法做到"},{"start":172.522,"end":196.911,"text":"尤其是原住民的立委的選區台澎金馬每個地方都有投票所最容易實施的對不對最容易實施的我就不曉得為什麼我們要跑到這麼遠的地方去投票所以我們的投票率你看看原住民的立法委員跟非原住民的投票率的差距這麼大"},{"start":198.424,"end":206.218,"text":"啊這麼大所以這個就是一個非常容易做的卻是不做啊本席啊"},{"start":207.459,"end":234.388,"text":"這個也提出公職委員選舉罷免法第17條的修正草案針對原住民的立法委員先實施這個我也提出總統副總統罷免法第13條的修正草案也是針對原住民的立法委員先實施不再舉投票確實沒辦法做到本席在第一次提案是105年了106年"},{"start":238.572,"end":256.916,"text":"12月7日內政委員會審查通過108年3月11日完成草野協商很遺憾的沒有完成三讀我上一屆也提了這一次又提了這一屆又提了部長可不可以先實施這是最容易的非常謝謝委員"},{"start":266.111,"end":280.207,"text":"大概這些都演繹過我們因為國情的狀況真的還是不太一樣那第一個是現在如果比如說是中央的選舉的話那如果要這樣子做的話大概會有76種的選票"},{"start":282.729,"end":283.53,"text":"部長,您被同仁護倒了。"},{"start":312.15,"end":336.716,"text":"我強調的是原住民的立法委員先實施不再起投票跟你剛才講的完全無關好我們就講總統選舉台澎金馬對不對原住民的選舉立法委員也是台澎金馬有什麼困難中選會從上一屆我質詢中選會"},{"start":341.564,"end":366.591,"text":"他們都說完全沒有問題在作業上完全沒有問題在作業上完全沒有問題所以這個可以做的講了剛剛的理由人家從國外來到台灣都可以實施我們只不過是在台灣而且在限收在限收到原住民的立法委員的選舉"},{"start":369.059,"end":386.721,"text":"公選會都說完全沒有困難但是每一次都說因為這個法律不是我主管是內政部可以嗎因為我們都有提案請這個召委能夠安排"},{"start":390.137,"end":413.211,"text":"希望部長能夠也認為樂觀其成宗教團體以自然的名義登記不動產處理戰刑條例這個已經這個法例當初審查了所以我主持的但是很多都沒有辦法這個被接受所以現在已經實施一段時間了請內政部把目前"},{"start":414.672,"end":432.555,"text":"實施的結果目前這個條例實施的結果提個書面資料給我可以嗎好沒問題好多久可以一個月內好一個月好謝謝非常謝謝我們的部長的回應也謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa5aafa59e362dedcccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a616d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:27:25 - 12:36:34","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":549,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:36:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:27:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":984,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時27分）好，謝謝召委。我要請內政部部長及國土管理署署長。"],["主席：好。請部長、國土管理署署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長好。部長，早上大家都在談論數位身分證的暫緩，數位身分證是在過去籌備的，也不是在你任內，基於資安風險及隱私保護的考量，目前已經停止辦理，關於廠商求償2.8億，是不是請戶政司來說明？還是部長你要說明？"],["林部長右昌：沒關係，我來說明就可以了。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。"],["主席：請部長說明，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。你剛剛的垂詢，2.8億的部分是所謂補償的部分，另外，我們之前有支出四點多億，這是包括支付給中央印製廠及相關的維護管理營運費用。"],["吳委員琪銘：4.8億和2.8億的補償加起來是七點幾億嘛？"],["林部長右昌：對。這是我們在預算執行的部分，決算的部分。"],["吳委員琪銘：這個一定要說明，早上還有委員說是十幾億，所以是有重複的計算？"],["林部長右昌：是，包括我們支付給中央印製廠的經費。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。部長，我再請問一下大家關心的社宅議題。部長，你回座好了，辛苦了。我請署長。"],["主席：請部長休息，請署長。謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，現在整個社宅的推動進度怎樣？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實現在都符合我們原來設定的目標，截至目前我們直接興建的社宅已經到了九萬五千多戶，今年的開標也都非常順利，我想今年直接興建也沒有問題。包租代管應該會超出我們原來的預期，因為包租代管成長率很高。租金補貼目前的申請數也已經遠超過50萬戶，所以今年要達到租金補貼50萬戶也沒有問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：你說包租代管現在已經有超標了，整個國宅20萬戶（包含包租代管），有沒有辦法今年就可以達標？"],["吳署長欣修：可以。跟委員報告，直接興建九萬五千多戶以後，到今年截止，目前我們跟地方政府的各個案子開標都非常順利，所以在今年應該可以如期達成這些案件的開標跟開工興建。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，這樣很好，因為這是大家所關心的，蔡總統過去所答應的8年20萬戶，也達成目標，對於未來的部分，我也在這裡向署長拜託，在土城、三峽的年輕人，對國宅的需求量還是很大，未來在這方面要怎麼推動，才可以滿足我的選區的年輕人？對於這一點，未來有沒有規劃？"],["吳署長欣修：有，跟委員報告，我們接下來的期程會持續擴大，希望未來的8年，就是從114年開始的8年，我們還要在全國再興建13萬戶。在土城，委員辛苦地一路規劃，然後帶動起來的司法園區，我們也已經有做社宅的規劃，只要未來在各地方政府有市地重劃、區段徵收的整開案，我們都規定至少要有3%到5%的社宅土地的規劃，我們也擴大盤點，並且加大力道，希望能夠提供更多的社宅土地，內政部國土管理署跟住都中心一定會聯手跟地方政府合作，一起再把社宅的數量持續擴大。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的。剛才你所說的，土城彈藥庫的市地重劃裡面有一塊是社宅，還有一塊就是莒光四村，莒光四村屬於國防部，早期也有規劃這邊要蓋社宅，那我請問：莒光四村這個案子你有瞭解嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有。"],["吳委員琪銘：怎樣的瞭解？"],["吳署長欣修：就是道路的部分還要跟市府再協調，其實進度都持續在辦理中，沒有什麼問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：這個國宅沒有問題吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有。"],["吳委員琪銘：沒有問題啦？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。還有一處，就是三峽，三峽麥仔園要辦理區段徵收，未來這裡（尤其是大學城一帶）將會人口暴增，很多年輕人還是買不起房子，所以國宅的需求量還是非常大。你在土城有規劃土城彈藥庫的區段徵收，裡面有社宅，那三峽這個地方，未來是不是也要納入社宅規劃案？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，只要接下來有區段徵收、市地重劃的案子，我們都會跟地方政府來協商，優先來劃，除非真的在規劃上沒有辦法配合，我們也會跟地方政府協商，優先用專案讓售的方式，取得抵費地或剩餘可建築土地，這個部分我們一定會照這樣的作業方式，跟新北市政府再來討論，然後把社宅的土地規劃出來。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。因為在我的選區有很多年輕人對社宅都有非常高的期待，所以這個部分一定要趕快，絕對不要讓我們的年輕人大家買不起房子，對於居住的問題，我們一定要幫他們解決。"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會努力。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝署長。","接下來我請教警政署署長。"],["主席：好，我們請警政署署長。"],["黃署長明昭：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長好。署長，現在詐騙是政府要最積極取締的，所以現在數位身分證的延續也是因為很多有關隱私的資料外洩，很多詐騙集團無所不用其極地取得這些個資，這都是民眾最大的詬病之處，民眾因此對政府不信任，詐騙也完全沒有辦法完全遏止，針對這個部分，署長有什麼辦法解決嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員。剛剛委員提到的是個資外洩導致民眾被詐騙的問題，這種類型大概是解除分期付款那種手法比較多，比方說，我們去購物完了以後就接到電話，要求我們用手機來解除分期付款的設定等等這些套路的詐騙，關於電商這一塊的資安維護，我們也請數發部要求電商維護個資。還有政府統一碼的簡訊發送，數發部也已經建置了系統，透過公開發布簡訊，這個比較有公信力，很多配套措施都一直在推動進行中。"],["吳委員琪銘：現在很多詐騙簡訊都是用政府部門名義來發布，說民眾欠繳水費或其他費用，然後再用這樣的方式來釣魚，所以警政署和情治單位一定要趕快想出因應的對策。好，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["主席：好。非常謝謝吳琪銘召委的質詢。謝謝署長。謝謝。","繼續我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.58721875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.952843750000003,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.876593750000001,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.36159375,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.63034375,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.970343750000005,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.14471875,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.00534375,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.283468750000004,"end":59.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.20034375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.32596875,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.57034375,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.71721875,"end":91.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.24034375000001,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.68721875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.29409375,"end":103.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.91346875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.93846875000001,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.22034375000001,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.26096875,"end":123.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.23096875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.73721875000001,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.14596875,"end":160.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.43596875,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.36409375000002,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.45596875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.51471875000001,"end":171.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.48034375,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.02846875,"end":196.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.60346875000002,"end":197.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.67096875000001,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.87346875,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.97721875000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.16096875000002,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.14346875,"end":228.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.72096875000003,"end":229.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.18909375,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.20596875,"end":230.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.42534375000002,"end":230.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.47596875000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.32534375,"end":257.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":276.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.35471875,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.62784375,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.84284375000004,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.86784375,"end":292.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.60971875,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.44471875,"end":295.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.24159375,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.96721875000003,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.02909375,"end":319.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.82221875000005,"end":310.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.40721875,"end":321.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.01034375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.33096875,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.09034375000005,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.12409375000004,"end":323.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.92971875,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.85221875,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.02159375,"end":357.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.27034375,"end":361.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":396.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.81284375,"end":401.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.67284375,"end":405.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.94221875000005,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.36346875000004,"end":417.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.31221875,"end":414.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.76784375000005,"end":414.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.89846875,"end":416.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.21034375000005,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.66096875000005,"end":424.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.08284375000005,"end":424.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.09971875,"end":442.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.93221875,"end":444.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.16409375,"end":444.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.29909375000005,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.37034375,"end":458.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.57534375,"end":460.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.14034375000006,"end":471.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.56471875000005,"end":472.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.58159375,"end":526.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.47971875,"end":477.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.34034375000005,"end":477.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.93346875000003,"end":489.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.63471875000005,"end":510.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.0247187500001,"end":526.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.1047187500001,"end":527.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.1215937500001,"end":543.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.1697187500001,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.44784375,"end":547.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.619,"end":5.58,"text":"國土管理署署長"},{"start":25.84,"end":48.072,"text":"部長早上大家都在談論四位身分證的造反那四位身分證這是在過去啦也不是你任內啦在那個治安的風險以及隱私的保護那目前已經停止了那廠商的球場2.8億是不是請我們副政司來做說明嗎還是部長你來做說明"},{"start":56.018,"end":56.378,"text":"4.8億還有2.8億的補償那加起來"},{"start":86.036,"end":101.713,"text":"7點幾億嗎?對,這是我們在預算執行的部分,決算的部分。因為這一定要說明,早上10幾億,所以有重複的計算。包括我們支付給中央印製廠的經費。"},{"start":106.324,"end":107.366,"text":"請部長休息,我們請署長"},{"start":125.007,"end":147.782,"text":"市長現在整個社宅的推動現在進步怎樣跟委員報告其實現在都符合我們原來設定的目標那我們在目前截止直接興建已經到了9萬5千多戶那今年在目前的這個開標也都非常順利我想今年直接興建也沒有問題那包租代管"},{"start":148.442,"end":148.462,"text":"﹚吳琪銘"},{"start":163.604,"end":193.113,"text":"租金貸款你說現在已經有超標了那整個包租貸款那你整個國債20萬戶那包含包租貸款那有沒有有沒有辦法今年就可以達標跟委員報告就是直接興建的9萬5以後我們目前跟地方政府到今年截止各個案的這個開標都非常的順利所以在今年應該把說可以把如期的達成這些案件的一個"},{"start":193.837,"end":194.622,"text":"一個一個開標跟開工來興建"},{"start":197.605,"end":197.625,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":225.626,"end":229.389,"text":"滿足我的選區的年輕人這點是未來有沒有規劃有跟委員報告就是說我們在接下來的這個期程會持續的擴大那希望未來的就是114年開始的8年我們還要在全國再興建13萬戶那在土城目前委員也知道你辛苦這個"},{"start":249.842,"end":249.963,"text":"內政部部長"},{"start":277.557,"end":302.633,"text":"國路管理署跟住戶中心一定會聯手跟地方政府合作一起再把社宅的數量持續的擴大好的因為你剛才所說的我們的土層我們的庫這四地重劃這裡面有一塊那個社宅還有一塊就是擠光四村擠光四村是國防部我們早期也有規劃這邊要來蓋社宅"},{"start":305.054,"end":319.809,"text":"那我請問吉光市村這個案子你有了解嗎?有有,它現在就是道路的部分還有跟市府這邊在協調,那我們其實進度都持續在辦理中,那個沒有什麼問題這個國產路有問題吧?沒有"},{"start":322.148,"end":322.448,"text":"三峽未來賣紫岩"},{"start":337.773,"end":338.313,"text":"跟委員報告就是"},{"start":363.775,"end":381.372,"text":"只要接下來有去亂徵收勢力重劃的案子我們都會優先在會跟地方政府來協商優先來劃那除非他真的真的在規劃上沒有辦法配合我們會也跟他協商優先用專案讓售把他這一個不管是抵費地或是"},{"start":382.052,"end":382.072,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":397.152,"end":397.772,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":424.518,"end":430.861,"text":"市長現在詐騙集團打詐是政府最積極要來出題所以現在已經把我們說在我們的公共智慧身份證的延續就是因為有智慧"},{"start":447.608,"end":447.908,"text":"主席"},{"start":473.312,"end":488.264,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛委員可能提到的是大概個資外洩的問題導致我們被民眾被詐騙那這個大概這種類型大概解除分局付款那種手法是比較多比方說我們去購物館以後就接到電話"},{"start":489.105,"end":489.125,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":506.788,"end":526.227,"text":"這個部分還有就是政府的一個簡訊有政府同意碼的一個簡訊發送的部分那速發部也是已經建置了透過公開的公的那個發布那個簡訊來這個比較有公信力很多配套措施都一直在推動進行中"},{"start":527.268,"end":527.909,"text":"非常謝謝吳琪銘召委的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa604116b876d1ffeccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a602a28a74111475595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:20:16 - 12:27:15","影片長度":"00:06:59","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":419,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:27:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:20:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":915,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時20分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。2008年的時候，蔡總統在自由廣場跟臺灣社會道歉，他說上一次民進黨執政的時候，推集遊法修正不力，所以他跟社會道歉，現在已經是2024年了，請問蔡總統莊嚴的承諾什麼時候要兌現？請問他什麼時候要兌現他改革的承諾來修集會遊行法？請教部長，請教部長，請教部長。"],["林部長右昌：我請黃署長來說明。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，請部長回答，這是內政部主管的業務，請部長回答。"],["主席：請部長說明、回答一下好嗎？謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候兌現？"],["林部長右昌：我想集遊法的部分，我們會再跟相關……其實你也知道，這個牽扯到相關滿複雜的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：牽扯到什麼複雜的問題？這是你們的政治承諾，跳票到現在都已經2024年了，什麼時候要修正？部長，你還記不記得？你以前在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候，你對集遊法的評價是什麼？你是不是曾經說過，現行的集遊法有違憲之虞？請部長。"],["主席：時間暫停，請部長回應，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，因為這個案子之前有送到立法院，不過因為屆期不續審，所以又退回來，就是第9屆的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：這是蔡英文跳票的解釋嗎？這是蔡英文跳票的解釋嗎？我再請教你，你在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候，你是不是認為集遊法有違憲之虞？是不是？"],["林部長右昌：我想集會遊行的部分，我們應該要隨著民主政治的進步來做改善，我想這一點方向是一致的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們做了什麼改善？我現在的問題很具體，民進黨執政8年做了什麼改善？你當初在當副秘書長的時候，你說集會遊行法違憲應廢除，你還記得嗎？你還記不記得？"],["林部長右昌：這部分我在這邊說明一下，這倒不是像委員說的這樣子，因為這部分我們的確在相關……"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛哪裡有說錯？"],["林部長右昌：好，委員，我跟你報告一下，因為在之前相關的會議裡，我們其實有在進行，不過之前因為疫情的確是緩了一下。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你現在是推給疫情就對了？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我跟你報告，目前採行自願報備制的集會遊行法修正草案已經依照程序在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：進行到哪裡了？"],["林部長右昌：我們預計今年6月會送本部的法規審查會和部會來做審查，所以是有在進行的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以拖了8年，法案還在內政部繞。"],["林部長右昌：我們有在進行，我剛剛講了，因為3年的疫情期間，所以暫停相關的審議。"],["黃委員國昌：3年的疫情期間到底跟修集會遊行法有什麼關係？"],["林部長右昌：因為會議沒有辦法召開。"],["黃委員國昌：可以推托成這樣？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員……"],["黃委員國昌：本院那個時候、前4年內政委員會都停擺哦？不好意思，因為那4年我人不在立法院，我想請教一下召委，這4年我們內政委員會有停擺嗎？"],["主席：沒有停擺，我們是繼續開會的，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：你在扯什麼啊！"],["林部長右昌：沒有，沒有，委員，那個時候，像疫情的嚴重時間，你也知道，沒有相關的召集會議。"],["黃委員國昌：今天你站在這裡告訴大家，蔡英文跳票的理由是因為疫情，大家聽得下去，聽不下去？我願意接受檢驗。"],["林部長右昌：委員，請委員也不要這樣子貼標籤，我剛剛已經說過了……"],["黃委員國昌：我貼什麼標籤？我剛剛那句話哪裡講錯？請你指教嘛。"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛已經說過了，我們在今年的6月份會送部務會議來進行審查，所以是有進度的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛，繼續拖嘛，繼續混嘛。"],["林部長右昌：委員，你講話可以小聲一點，我都聽得到。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，沒有關係，我們繼續看。當初你在當基隆市市長的時候，人家要去申請使用國門廣場，結果被你喝斥說：「哇！這種為了搞選舉不擇手段，國門廣場不可以舉辦政治性的活動。」講得是振振有詞啊。結果呢？去年選舉的時候，這場活動在哪裡舉辦的？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，第一個，在我執政時期，包括我們的市民廣場還有所有的廣場，我們不准舉行相關的政治活動，這樣的態度跟立場是一致的。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。所以呢？所以換人家執政的時候，人家開放了，你就高高興興地跑到國門廣場去做政治聚會喔？我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，新的市長要開放這個廣場，那就是依照相關的規定去申請，柯p柯主席也在那個地方來舉辦。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你都說了，在你主政的時候，國門廣場不可以舉辦政治活動，新的市長上來以後就可以舉辦政治活動。"],["林部長右昌：我們把它定位成是一個市民活動的廣場。"],["黃委員國昌：蔡英文那時候說什麼？他說把街頭還給人民，只有在自由的街頭，我們才有自由的社會，這是我們民主進步黨的責任。"],["林部長右昌：這個並不衝突啊。"],["黃委員國昌：你自己在當市長的時候，國門廣場搞政治戒嚴，別人開放的時候，馬上喜孜孜地去那邊搞政治活動，我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們沒有搞政治戒嚴，請不要這樣子亂貼標籤，這一點我完全不接受。"],["黃委員國昌：國門廣場在你市長任內不是不能舉辦政治活動嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我們所有的廣場、我們所有的市民的開放空間，回歸給市民舉辦相關的活動，請不要這樣子貼標籤。謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照你這樣講，這個不是回歸給市民舉辦的活動、這個不是政治集會嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我們舉辦一般性的活動，但是現在他們不做這樣的決定，我們尊重現在的市政府。"],["黃委員國昌：說一套、做一套。"],["林部長右昌：這個我也不接受。"],["黃委員國昌：跳票了8年，跳票了8年。"],["林部長右昌：委員，謝謝，不過這個我不接受。"],["黃委員國昌：我有說錯嗎？說一套、做一套，說要把街頭還給人民，你在當市長的時候，有把街頭還給人民嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，請瞭解整個基隆市當時的狀態，這一點，你剛剛講的這個指控，我完全不接受，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：我講得很清楚啊！你接不接受是你的事，人民在看啊！"],["林部長右昌：我也尊重委員的說話，不過也請委員……"],["黃委員國昌：跳票了8年啦！當初不是你主張違憲嗎？"],["林部長右昌：請委員不要一直貼標籤。"],["黃委員國昌：現在自己當部長，對於自己主管的法規違憲毫無作為。"],["主席：好，謝謝國昌委員，質詢時間到，也請部長不要再回應了。"],["林部長右昌：不會。謝謝，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝國昌委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。不過今年6月集遊法就要提出來了是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，對。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","繼續我們請吳琪銘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.555343750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.21221875,"end":29.190968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.81534375,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.70971875,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.73471875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.03784375,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.21471875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.68284375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.64034375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.64409375,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.90534375,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.23846875,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.53784375,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.38096875,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.220343750000005,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.47346875,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.679718750000006,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.81409375,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.77909375,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.68909375,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.41471875,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.91596875,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.08409375000001,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.74971875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.57659375,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.21346875,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.92971875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.40971875000001,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.68284375,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.28596875000001,"end":133.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.38159375,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.95096875000002,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.59159375000002,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.54471875000002,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.58659375000002,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.62784375,"end":150.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.53909375,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.43346875,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.20034375,"end":159.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.12846875,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.20284375,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.51909375000002,"end":187.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.70221875000001,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.02659375000002,"end":197.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.00471875000002,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.86846875,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.06659375,"end":204.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.72284375,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.89159375000003,"end":217.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.00971875000002,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.16034375,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":239.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.07409375,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.38596875000002,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.47846875000002,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.91221875000002,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.63784375,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.20721875,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.00846875000002,"end":254.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.92784375000002,"end":257.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.99909375000004,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.26471875000004,"end":261.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.62721875,"end":263.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.98971875,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.04846875000004,"end":266.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":272.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.46096875,"end":273.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.50284375,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.85284375000003,"end":277.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.50659375000004,"end":278.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.27409375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.44659375000003,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.81659375000004,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.79534375000003,"end":299.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.81534375,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.07659375000003,"end":302.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.17784375,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.19471875,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.22846875000005,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.26221875000005,"end":302.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.49846875000003,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.93221875,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.96596875,"end":307.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.65784375000004,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.86846875000003,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.23534375,"end":313.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.68659375000004,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.52596875,"end":316.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.11221875,"end":317.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.79971875,"end":321.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.48284375000003,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.33909375,"end":325.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.81971875,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.11034375,"end":332.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.85659375,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.95721875000004,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.40784375000004,"end":347.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.92596875000004,"end":351.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.06471875,"end":359.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.67096875000004,"end":359.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.68784375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.70471875000004,"end":363.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.77221875000004,"end":360.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.42971875,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.13784375,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.20471875000004,"end":374.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.87534375,"end":374.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.90909375,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.02721875000003,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.16221875,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.57971875000004,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.33409375,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.11846875000003,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.68784375,"end":389.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.74221875,"end":392.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.89784375000005,"end":393.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.77096875,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.79596875000004,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.08221875000004,"end":402.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.84159375,"end":404.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.08596875,"end":404.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.41909375,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.97096875000005,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.05471875,"end":416.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.791,"end":8.069,"text":"請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席麻煩有請部長我有請林部長"},{"start":13.078,"end":33.462,"text":"陳委員好部長好哦2008年的時候蔡總統在自由廣場跟台灣社會道歉說那個時候上一次民進黨執政的時候推極有法的修正不利跟社會道歉現在已經是2024年了請問蔡總統莊嚴的承諾什麼時候要兌現集會遊行法"},{"start":39.301,"end":57.869,"text":"什麼時候要兌現他改革的承諾請教部長請教部長請教部長我請那個沒有請部長回答這個是內政部主管的業務請部長回答我們請部長說明回答一下謝謝我想自由法的部分我們"},{"start":64.847,"end":80.224,"text":"在我們也會再跟相關因為這個其實你也知道這個其實也牽扯到相關蠻複雜的問題牽扯到什麼複雜的問題這是你們的政治承諾啊跳跳到現在2024年欸什麼時候要修正"},{"start":81.738,"end":109.43,"text":"部長你還記不記得你以前在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候你對於極有法的評價是什麼你是不是曾經說過現行的極有法有違憲之餘請部長暫停時間請部長回應跟委員報告這一個案子因為之前有送到立法院不過藉其不續審又推回來了第9屆的時候這個是蔡英文跳票的解釋嗎"},{"start":111.448,"end":139.482,"text":"這是蔡英文票票的解釋嗎我在請教你啊你在當民主進步黨副秘書長的時候是不是認為極有法有違憲之餘我想集會遊行的部分當然我們應該隨著民主政治的一個進步來做改善我想這一點方向是所以做了什麼改善現在我的問題很具體嘛民進黨執政8年做了什麼改善這個是你當初"},{"start":141.621,"end":170.411,"text":"在當副秘書長的時候集會遊行法違憲應廢除你還記得嗎你還記不記得我想這一部分在這邊說明一下倒不是像委員說的這樣子因為這一部分我們的確是在相關我跟妳報告一下因為在之前相關的一個會議我們其實是有進行不過在之前疫情的確是緩了一下在推給疫情就對了"},{"start":170.691,"end":171.011,"text":"所以拖了8年以後法案還在內政部繞嗎?"},{"start":190.209,"end":207.503,"text":"因為剛剛在講三年的疫情期間的確是暫停相關的一個事情 三年的疫情期間跟休期會遊行法到底有什麼關係啊 因為會議沒有辦法召開嘛 可以拖拖成這樣 本月那個時候前四年內政委員會都停擺喔"},{"start":208.604,"end":224.877,"text":"不好意思我那四年因為人不在立法院我想請教一下昭文這四年我們內政委員會有停擺嗎沒有停擺我們繼續開會的你在扯什麼啊沒有沒有委員那個時候像疫情的嚴重時間你也知道那個沒有沒有相關的一個早起會議今天你站在這裡"},{"start":226.818,"end":239.948,"text":"告訴大家蔡英文跳票的理由是因為疫情大家聽得下去聽不下去我們接受檢驗請委員不要這樣子這個貼標籤我剛剛已經說過了哪裡講錯請你指教嘛我剛剛已經說過了我們在今年的六月份我們會送部會議來進行審查沒有關係嘛所以是有進度的繼續拖嘛繼續混嘛"},{"start":252.837,"end":276.606,"text":"委員你講話可以小聲一點我都聽得到好來沒有關係我們繼續看當初你在當基隆市市長的時候人家要去申請國門廣場結果被你喝斥了說齁哇這種為了搞選舉不擇手段國門廣場不可以舉辦政治性的活動講的是正正有詞啊結果呢去年選舉的時候這場活動在哪裡舉辦的"},{"start":280.467,"end":299.892,"text":"委員我跟您報告第一個在我執政時期包括我們的市民廣場還有所有的廣場我們不准舉行相關的一個政治活動這樣的態度跟立場是一致的對嘛所以呢所以不換你執政的時候人家開放了你就高高興興的跑到國門廣場去做政治聚會喔委員"},{"start":302.059,"end":309.226,"text":"國門廣場是不可以舉辦政治活動新的市長上來以後就可以舉辦政治活動我們把它定位成是一個市民活動的廣場蔡英文那時候說什麼把街頭還給人民啊"},{"start":325.882,"end":346.901,"text":"只有在自由的街頭我們才有自由的社會啊這是我們民主進步黨的責任啊你自己在當市長的時候國門廣場搞政治戒嚴別人開放的時候馬上喜滋滋的去那邊搞政治活動我有說錯嗎委員我們沒有搞政治戒嚴請不要這樣子亂提標籤啊這一點我完全不接受"},{"start":347.984,"end":372.212,"text":"我們廣場在你市長任內的時候不是不能舉辦政治活動嗎我們所有的廣場我們所有的市民的開放空間給市回歸給市民舉辦相關的活動請不要這樣子貼標籤所以按照你這樣講是這個不是回歸給市民舉辦活動我們舉辦一些我們舉辦一般性的活動但是現在他他們不做這樣的決定嗎這個我們尊重現在的市政府嗎"},{"start":373.24,"end":376.882,"text":"委員 請瞭解整個金融市當時的狀態 這一點你剛剛講的這個指控我完全不接受 謝謝"},{"start":394.81,"end":404.435,"text":"你先不接受是你的事啊我尊重委員說話不過也請委員請委員不要一直貼標籤現在自己當部長對於自己主管的法規違憲毫無作為啊好 謝謝國昌委員質詢行政也請部長不要再回應了不會 謝謝謝謝國昌委員 謝謝部長 謝謝署長"}]}},{"id":"150026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5ef40c51a0d5ef5bccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a643e27919c524e7415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:13:07 - 12:19:34","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":387,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:19:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":887,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時13分）請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我的時間不多，我很快速的跟你請教。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["洪委員申翰：其實現在租賃市場上，很多房東都超收租客的電價來賺差價，部長，你知不知道有這個現象？"],["林部長右昌：我們知道有這個現象。"],["洪委員申翰：你知道有這個現象，來，看下面這張表，你看一下，我舉這個為例，房東一層樓隔5間套房，2個月收一次電費，5間套房如果用電2,000度，如果這是合理的度數的話，在台電的電費單上，台電會跟這個房東收8,000元，這是夏月哦！平均一度電大概4元出頭一點點，但現在如果房東平均一度電收5.5元，5.5元已經很客氣了，現在6元、6.5元的都有。如果是5.5元的話，房東一期就可以賺3,000元。如果他是收7.69元的話，房東一期就可以賺七千多元的差價，部長，你覺得這個合理嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個當然很明顯的不合理。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，現在這個狀況讓我們非常的憂心，其實我自己也是租屋族，我過去也是長期被超收電費，其實我已經質詢過經濟部和內政部，我們都已經談過很多次，其實現在台電已經成立「租屋電價透明專區」，他們已經把這個透明專區建立起來了，這是台電的動作快於內政部的地方，可是部長，我要跟你說，按照我們的規定，夏季房東每度電還是可以收到7.69元；非夏季還是可以收到6.03元。簡單來說，我們還是認為房東超收3元左右的電費是合法的，部長，這是我們現在的規定，部長，你覺得我們的規定合不合理？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個當然也不合理。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我要提醒，其實我們的電價是由國家或是國營事業來做一定成本的吸收和補貼，結果房東居然拿這個補貼來賺差價，如果今天國家要在電費上給予一定的優惠，照理來說，這個優惠應該是給房客，而不應該是給相對權利比較大的房東，現在反而是年輕的房客受害，尤其是住在這些出租套房裡面的年輕人。","部長，我跟你報告，去年4月到11月，內政部開過2次的會議，但目前幾乎沒有下文，我不斷的追，包括上個禮拜我也都還在追，這個目前都沒有下文，內政部還是允許房東超收1度電三塊多以上的電價，部長，你覺得接下來該怎麼辦？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告一下，上個禮拜我有親自針對這個問題召開過會議，我們大概有幾個方向，第一個，租屋公共設施的電費已經有向台電申請分算者，這部分沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長右昌：現在有問題的是租屋的公共設施電費沒有申請分算或是申請獨立電表的，這部分我們現在打算把它放在定型化契約裡面去律定。另外，如果今天租屋者，就是這個房東沒有針對公共設施去分設電表的話，我們有一個方向，就是公共設施這部分的電費要由房東來負擔。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，之前內政部給我的回答都是，因為房客可能也不知道平均電價是多少，但是現在台電已經設立透明化專區，其實按照台電的程序，他們是可以查到自己的平均電價，所以現在缺的臨門一腳是，內政部應該在租賃契約的應記載與不得記載事項上，明確的規定房東不得超收每度平均電價的電費，這樣的規定應該要規定上去，而不是像現在夏月每度電還可以收到7.69元；非夏月收到六點多元，所以我們現在希望的事情是，我們應該在應記載和不得記載事項上，趕快把它訂清楚。當然，我們需要一些細膩的配套來處理，包括公共用電這些問題，這些我們都很清楚，可是我覺得內政部的動作太慢了。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員的指教，我上個禮拜有親自召開過會議，然後也有做一些方向上的確認和指示，最近這一、二個禮拜我們會再召開一次會議，然後應該就可以收斂、定案。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，所以一個月內可以完成這件事情？"],["林部長右昌：我想一個月內沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：好。部長，我要給你看一下，下一張，這是我們現在最擔心的，現在台電可能會因應成本來調整電價，房東居然超收再超收，然後租客認為不合理，政府又無法可罰，最後民怨回到政府，其實這變成是一個loop，我們希望接下來內政部的動作可以阻斷這個不當的循環，不要再讓超收這種不正義的事情發生。部長，我知道你很重視建築的節能，你可以想像，假如今天一個房東一度電可以超收3元，那你覺得這個房東是希望房客多用電？還是少用電？"],["林部長右昌：這個當然有道德風險在裡面。"],["洪委員申翰：他一定是希望多用電，所以他可能就給你能效最低的二手家具和家電，因為這樣他才可以有更多賺差價的獲利來源，這是一個反向的、永續的命題，所以部長，我們希望一個月內，就照你剛說的，請給我們一個答案，把該修的修好，該有的細緻配套，我們也都尊重、也該有，可是動作不要再像之前、去年這麼牛步了，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪申翰委員的質詢，謝謝！也謝謝部長，謝謝。","請黃國昌委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.290968750000001,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.20971875,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.80409375,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.33534375,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.90471875,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.874718750000003,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.22034375,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.789718750000002,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.81909375,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.37971875,"end":41.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.35784375,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.166593750000004,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.68471875,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.49846875,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.24721875,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.30096875000001,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":82.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.59159375,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.89909375,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.97034375000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.85596875,"end":95.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.26909375000001,"end":96.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":103.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.69409375000001,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.19909375,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.24034375000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.41909375,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.27534375000002,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.26221875000002,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.98346875000001,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":154.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.88846875000002,"end":177.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.21409375000002,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.18346875,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.26721875,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.24471875,"end":223.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.14784375000002,"end":233.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.49221875,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.72221875000002,"end":252.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.98721875,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.24909375000004,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.72971875,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.54159375,"end":310.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.78409375,"end":313.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.57284375,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.26034375,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.70284375,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.71096875,"end":320.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.01034375,"end":324.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.65534375000004,"end":327.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.74346875000003,"end":329.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.76846875,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.14346875,"end":334.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.45971875000004,"end":350.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.71034375000005,"end":353.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.69284375,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.73034375000003,"end":377.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.40221875000003,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.88221875000005,"end":386.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.884,"end":34.673,"text":"請部長 也請林部長來 委員好部長我時間不多齁 我很快速的跟你請教齁其實現在我們在租賃市場上面喔 很多房東喔 超收租客的電價喔 來賺差價 部長 你知不知道這個現象我們知道有一個現象 你知道這個現象齁 來看下面這張表"},{"start":36.411,"end":57.049,"text":"那你看一下我舉這個為例房東一層如果給他五間套房兩個月收一次電費五間套房如果大概用2000度這是合理的度數為例的話在台電的電費單上面可能大概是他會被收台電會跟這個房東收8000塊算下來的話這是下月哦平均度電大概4塊出頭一點點"},{"start":59.551,"end":72.801,"text":"但現在如果房東平均一度電收5.5塊5.5塊可能已經很客氣囉現在我們看到6塊6.5塊都有喔如果收5.5塊的話這一期房東可以賺3000塊如果他是收7.69塊的話一期房東可以賺差價7000多塊部長你覺得這合理嗎"},{"start":84.644,"end":95.617,"text":"我想這個當然很明顯的不合理部長現在我們看到這個狀況我們非常非常憂心我其實自己也是租屋主我過去也是長期被超收電費"},{"start":98.011,"end":116.857,"text":"現在我其實已經質詢了包括經濟部包括我也跟內政部講過我們都談過很多次現在台電其實已經成立了租屋電價透明專區已經把這個透明專區建立起來了這是台電的動作快於內政部的地方可是不然我跟你說現在按照我們的規定"},{"start":118.317,"end":137.718,"text":"只要在夏季每個房東還是可以收到7.69塊分夏季還是可以收到6.03塊簡單來說我們還是認為房東超收3塊左右的電費是合法的部長這是我們現在的規定部長就我們的規定合不合理"},{"start":140.425,"end":153.15,"text":"我想這個當然也不合理好不然我要提醒其實我們的電價其實是國家或我們國營事業來做一定的成本的吸收跟補貼出來的結果房東居然拿這個補貼來賺差價"},{"start":155.916,"end":183.864,"text":"今天如果我們國家要在電費上面給一定的優惠照理來說我們的優惠是給房客而不應該反而是被相對權力比較大的房東給拿去反而現在是房客在受害是年輕人的房客在受害尤其是住在這些出租套房裡面的年輕人在受害所以部長我跟你報告從去年4月到去年11月內政部開了兩次的會但目前幾乎沒有下文"},{"start":185.199,"end":196.029,"text":"我不斷的追包括從上個禮拜在追目前都沒有下文我們的內政部還是允許房東超收一度店3塊多以上的店價部長你覺得接下來該怎麼辦"},{"start":198.434,"end":221.845,"text":"委員我對您報告一下這個在上個禮拜我有親自針對這個問題召開會議那我們大概幾個方向第一個是租屋的公共設施電費已經有向臺電申請分算者這部分沒有問題那現在有問題的是租屋的公共設施電費沒有申請分算或者是申請電表的獨立電表這部分有問題因為那"},{"start":224.526,"end":252.204,"text":"這部分我們現在打算把它放在這個定型化契約裡面去律定另外就是如果今天這個租屋者就是說房東沒有去在針對公共設施去分設這個電表的話我們有一個方向就是說這一部分應該是由公共設施的這一部分的電費由房工來負擔部長之前內政部給我的回答都是因為房客可能也不知道平均電價是多少"},{"start":253.044,"end":279.273,"text":"但現在在台電其實已經設立了這個透明化專區以後其實按照台電的程序他們是可以查得到自己的平均電價的所以現在缺的靈門一角是內政部應該在我們的租賃契約應記載跟不得記載事項上面明確規定房東不得超收超過平均每度平均電價這樣子的規定就應該規定上去而不是再用現在的每度電還可以收到7.69下月收到7.69"},{"start":280.774,"end":281.615,"text":"謝謝委員指教我上禮拜親自開會然後也做了一些方向上的"},{"start":303.188,"end":331.85,"text":"確認跟支持那最近應該是最近這一兩個禮拜我們會再開一次會然後就應該可以收電訂單部長所以一個月內可以完成這件事我想一個月內沒問題部長我要給你看一下下一張我們是現在最擔心的現在台電可能因應成本會來調整電價房東居然又在超收上再超收然後租客認為不合理政府又無法可罰最後明月回到政府其實這變成是一個loop"},{"start":333.568,"end":353.267,"text":"這變成是一個loop我們希望我們接下來在內政部的動作上面就可以阻斷這個不當的循環不要再讓超收這種不正義的事情發生部長你現在也很重視 我知道你很重視建築的節能你可以想像今天假如一個房東他一度電他可以超收3塊你覺得這個房東希望房客多用電還是少用電"},{"start":354.913,"end":354.933,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":385.239,"end":386.348,"text":"好謝謝洪申翰委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a9c77bd4a768adb62ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a620347047a26059635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:04:28 - 12:13:02","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":514,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:04:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時4分）謝謝主席。有請內政部林部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：警政署黃署長。"],["主席：黃署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長和署長，我要先請教一下，5月1日勞動節公務人員到底可不可以一起放假？或者全國是否可以一起放假？其實這個最近社會討論非常多，本席月初在司法及法制委員會也曾經請教過人事總處，目前公務機關不管是聘用人員、約僱人員或是公務人員都一樣不適用勞動基準法，而是屬於公法上的契約關係，因此沒有辦法適用五一勞動節來放假。本席舉兩個例子，譬如說：一個單位裡面同時有公務人員、約聘人員和派遣性質的臨時人員，因此在一個單位裡面，有些人可以放勞動節、有些人不能放，這個大家都很清楚。","另外，中央和地方的公職，你光看立法院就好，很多助理和幕僚都適用勞基法，但基本上都是配合著公家單位和公職人員的工作作息，就我的瞭解，其實大部分都沒有放假，也沒有人會刻意的去注意到這群很辛苦為社會、國家在付出的群體，他們被勞動節給遺忘了。","本席還記得，去年大眾在討論這一題的時候，人總的回應是說要交由內政部研議，因為你們是紀念日及節日實施辦法的主管機關。你們的回應就更有意思了，你們當時是回應，委員提案要將這個辦法提升到法的位階，你們尊重立法院最終的決議。其實這個問題單純就是公務人員要不要放假？這個應該人總就能夠決定並會知你們，但是經過一連串這樣討論下來，非常大的困難就出在教職人員這個部分，這個大家都很清楚，就是老師放假，但是學生沒有放假要怎麼辦？早年兒童節只有兒童放假，但是兒童放假沒有大人可以照顧，所以後來就跟清明節一起變成連假，現在的狀況類似，就是老師放假，兒童沒有人可以教課。上次我問人總，人總也說期待比照兒童節的模式，由內政部來修正紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條第二項，由地方直接將勞動節比照兒童節的模式，統統放假一日。","所以2個問題請教部長，你是否認同比照兒童節模式的可能？還有，目前全年休假日已經滿了，部長先前受訪時也講，這需要有配套，那配套是什麼？先請教。"],["林部長右昌：好，委員，其實你非常清楚這個問題和方向是如何，不過你剛剛提到的那個課題，基本上，我們現在的思考是朝向正面、肯定的方向在前進。"],["莊委員瑞雄：哦！你都說這種話，那我問你，我懂你的意思，我請黃署長上來的意思也是一樣，公務機關都會遇到這種問題，你知不知道？我們不是要叫你們上來站著。部長，你跟我說會正面思考，那我簡單的問你，你的意思是說，方向明確、樂觀其成，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那我要問你了。"],["林部長右昌：雖然我們是主管機關，法我們當然要修，但是這個涉及全國的事務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是，你說「方向明確、樂觀其成」，但問題是又沒有答案。那我問你，5月1日可不可以適用？"],["林部長右昌：這個最近院會應該就會有一個答案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有開過會了？"],["林部長右昌：我們正在……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個大家都很期待，連召委都笑嘻嘻，你看，大家都期待這個政策可以嘉惠所有的行政機關，不然會造成有的……"],["林部長右昌：是，這要跨部會，我想執政黨、包括院長也都非常關心這個議題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以？"],["林部長右昌：我們已經加速的在進行相關的溝通。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以5月1日適用沒有問題？"],["林部長右昌：我沒有辦法幫院做這樣子的回答。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你的意思是說「方向明朗、樂觀其成」，這樣就對了？"],["林部長右昌：我們會以正面的方向來看待。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實正面就是了，你就大膽的講就好了，有什麼關係，胸脯就把它拍下去，接下來要請教……"],["林部長右昌：我們不能僭越。"],["莊委員瑞雄：先感謝啦！希望5月1日放假的問題在內政委員會這樣建議後可以解決，其實這是長年以來的老問題，可以解決這樣的問題是好事，不然一個單位有的人適用勞基法、只是單位不同而已，怎麼會變成這樣子？行政部門把它解決掉是好事，好不好？","另外我要請教，跟騷法實行快2年了，我們何時要啟動修法檢討的一個評估？我要請教署長的是，2021年11月跟騷法三讀通過以後，我們在2022年6月實行，將跟騷行為明確入罪，並導入書面告誡、保護令和刑事訴訟等3道防線。被害人報案以後，警政單位可以開立書面告誡給行為人，然後明確告知你違法，2年內再犯的話，被害人就可以向法院民事庭聲請保護令，如果再違反保護令的話，就會科以刑責。好了，跟騷法實行到今年已經2年了，從111年6月到今年1月底，你們總共受理了4,944件；開立的書面告誡有3,480件；違反書面告誡的有315件。從這些數據中可以看得出來，現行開立書面告誡雖然只是一只行政命令，但確實有達到阻嚇的效果，但本席的問題是，這個法還有很多可以努力及改善的空間，我舉例，我今天在司法及法制委員會也有講到，韓國直播主企鵝妹來臺灣，他在全省環島直播的時候，粉絲開始跟蹤他，直到有人報案後，警方依照跟騷法的規定開立書面告誡。開立書面告誡是宣示警方已經介入，但是這有一個問題，如果他還是一直圍繞著他，那在聲請報護令、核發保護令還沒有出來的這段時間，我們要如何保護被害人的安全？這是第一個。","召委，我馬上結束。第二個，這有很大的問題，其實我們有做出決議，去年本席在內政委員會質詢完之後，警政署很快的就召開諮詢小組和相關的研討會，跟騷法立法院三讀通過之後，我們通過的附帶決議是，內政部必須要在3年內檢視現行法令有沒有需要調整的，我要請問，警政署現在的規劃如何？請一併回答。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，首先第一點，如果他再被跟騷的話，其實警方可以協助他來做保護的工作，可以這樣子執行。第二個問題，今年底有沒有要啟動修法？根據專家學者以及學術研討會所提出的，這段時間所執行的內容大概有一個問題，那就是警察和檢察官依照職權來聲請保護令的部分，法官很多都不同意，所以我們希望可以入法，就是可以修在跟騷法這個母法裡面。再來，相對人處遇機制這一塊，這一塊可能還要再跟衛福部做一個比較細緻的討論，然後再入法，這樣我們才有辦法可以推動。"],["主席：好，所以等於還有其他部會需要一起協同的來處理是嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：對。"],["主席：好，懂了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不要開玩笑，因為向法院聲請保護令的194件裡面，違反保護令的高達101件，開什麼玩笑？我們做成決議後，你們的規劃要趕快出來，好不好？"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：OK！"],["主席：麻煩你也跟委員報告一下，需要我們立法委員來協助你們的，請跟我們說一下，好不好？好，謝謝莊委員，謝謝！謝謝部長和署長，謝謝","繼續請洪申翰委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.72221875,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.04596875,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.80471875,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.42846875,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.20721875000001,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.47846875000002,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.19971875000002,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.07721875000001,"end":137.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.05159375,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.73909375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.48096875000002,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.53909375,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.34596875000003,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.89846875,"end":200.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.43846875000003,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.69159375,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.96721875,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.64221875,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.70971875,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.72659375,"end":221.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.67846875,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.38721875000002,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.69409375,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.87971875000002,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.73034375,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.89096875,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.93284375,"end":289.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":283.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.45846875,"end":291.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.29346875000005,"end":301.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.37784375,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.31284375,"end":303.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.00034375,"end":309.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.61534375,"end":312.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.31534375,"end":326.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.03471875,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.85784375000003,"end":371.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.63534375,"end":375.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.76971875000004,"end":376.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.23784375,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.96346875,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.23721875,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.67471875,"end":393.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.30284375,"end":399.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.85034375000004,"end":401.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.87534375,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.15284375000005,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.35096875000005,"end":410.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.32971875000004,"end":411.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.16909375,"end":412.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.59909375,"end":417.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.50159375000004,"end":439.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.74284375,"end":440.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.92409375000005,"end":444.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.69971875000005,"end":491.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.43534375,"end":495.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.62471875000006,"end":493.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.28284375000004,"end":494.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.48534375,"end":505.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.73409375000006,"end":495.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.90284375000005,"end":495.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.93659375000004,"end":496.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.57721875000004,"end":500.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.64409375,"end":504.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.21784375000004,"end":514.4990937499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.42,"end":11.795,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們內政部林部長有請林部長我們警政署黃署長黃署長"},{"start":16.82,"end":39.726,"text":"部長還有署長我想我要先請教一下我們這個五一勞動節公務人員到底可不可以一起放或者說全國是否一起放或者最近其實社會討論非常多本期在月初在社會法制委員會我也請教過人事總署目前公務機關不管是聘用人員約戶人員"},{"start":41.567,"end":62.175,"text":"或公務人員一樣並不適用勞動基準法：這屬於公法上的契約的關係因此沒有辦法去適用說這個五一勞動節的一個放假本席來舉兩個例子就比如說一個單位裡面同時有公務人員有業聘人員還有派遣性質的臨時人員但在勞動節的一個單位裡面有些人可以放有些人不能放"},{"start":62.475,"end":63.135,"text":"中央及地方公職"},{"start":81.067,"end":86.633,"text":"也沒有人會刻意去注意到這一群很辛苦為這個社會國家在付出的一個群體這被勞動節給遺忘了本身還記得我去年在被這一題去年在被大眾討論的時候人總的回應是說"},{"start":98.965,"end":113.071,"text":"要交由內政部去研議因為你們是紀念日跟節日實施辦法的一個主管機關你們的回應更有意思當時委員提案要把這個辦法升為法的位階你們尊重立法院最終的一個決議"},{"start":114.392,"end":128.826,"text":"其實這個問題單純是公務員員要不要放應該是人總就能夠決定並來匯給你們但經過一連串這樣討論下來非常大的困難就出在教職人員的一個部分大家很清楚就老師放學生沒放怎麼辦早年兒童節跟兒童放"},{"start":133.89,"end":161.747,"text":"只有兒童放假但兒童放假沒大人要顧實施以後後來跟清明節一起來變連假現在狀況類似老師放假兒童沒有人教課所以上次我問人總人總也說是期待兒童節的模式由內政部去修紀念日跟節日的實施辦法第5條第2項的地方直接將勞動節比照兒童節的模式通通來放假一日"},{"start":162.387,"end":173.719,"text":"所以兩個問題請教部長就是否認同比照兒童節的模式的可能還有目前全年休假日已經滿了部長先前受訪也講說這個需要有配套配套是什麼先請教"},{"start":181.225,"end":198.401,"text":"委員其實你非常清楚這一個問題還有方向大概是怎麼樣不過你剛剛提到的那個課題的話基本上現在在思考應該是朝向一個正面肯定的方向在前提"},{"start":199.102,"end":199.783,"text":"方向明確樂觀其誠"},{"start":219.091,"end":246.293,"text":"是的,但是因為這個涉及這個因為我們雖然是主管機關那法當然我們要修不過這還是這個涉及的是全國的這個事務方向明確你說方向明確樂觀其成但問題的是又沒有答案那我問你五月一號可不可以試用我想應該最近這個院會有整體最近應該就會有一個答案"},{"start":247.334,"end":247.615,"text":"5月1日試用沒問題"},{"start":274.936,"end":296.742,"text":"我沒有辦法幫院做這樣子的一個報告你這個意思是說方向明朗啦樂觀其成這樣對吧我想我們是正面的方向來看其實正面就是大膽就講有什麼關係胸脯就把它拍下去接下來要來請教我們不能漸越先感謝啦希望5月1號我們內政委員會這樣的一個建議以後啊因為這個其實這個長年的老問題嘛那可以解決這樣的一個問題是好事啦"},{"start":302.484,"end":322.853,"text":"此外．有些人同樣在單位內．我便可以適用勞基法只是在單位不同而已變成這樣子行政部把他解決掉是好事啦好不好另外我要請教就是說根梢法實行快兩年我們何時去啟動修法檢討的一個評估我請教署長的就是說我們2021年11月根梢"},{"start":327.502,"end":350.863,"text":"根梢法三讀通過以後我們在2022年的6月實行將根梢行為明確去入罪並導入書面的一個告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線那被人報案以後警政單位的開立書面告誡給行為人然後明確告知說你違法兩年內再犯被害可以向法院來民事庭的申請保護令如果再違反保護令的話可以刑責"},{"start":351.343,"end":365.57,"text":"好了那你跟稍法施行到今年兩當啦從111年6月到今年1月底你們總共受理了4000高霸44間開立的書面告誡3480件違反書面告誡315件從這個數據可以看得出來現行開立的書面告誡雖然是一紙行政命令但是呢確實達到主後的一個效果但本席的問題是說我們"},{"start":378.042,"end":400.137,"text":"這個法還有很多可以去努力改善的一個空間我來舉例我今天去理事法法治委員會有講過韓國那個主播主那個企鵝妹來台灣全程在直播在環島的時候粉絲開始在對對到他沒有人有人去報案後後來他跟社會規定書面來告誡開立告誡以後是在保護令面前宣誓說我警方已經介入了但是這有一個問題"},{"start":402.046,"end":412.402,"text":"他們還一直洗洗洗在這段時間如果申請保護令合法這段時間保護令還沒出來以前如何去保護北韓人的安全這第一個第二個喔"},{"start":414.659,"end":443.898,"text":"稍後我馬上結束第二個很大的問題就是說我們其實其實我們有做出我們有做出決議我們有做出決議就是說我們去年內政委員會還質詢完以後警政署這邊很快就召開一個諮詢小組跟相關研討會跟商法通過立法院三讀通過以後我們通過附帶決議是說內政部必須要三年內去檢視現行法令我們也需要調整我要請問警政署你們現在的規劃如何請一併回答"},{"start":446.446,"end":468.228,"text":"首先第一點就是如果他有再被根燒的話其實警方可以協助他做一個保護的工作就可以這樣子來執行第二個問題就是說有沒有到今年底要啟動修法我們大概根據專家學者以及協助研討會的一個提出來這段時間執行的內容大概有一個問題就是"},{"start":470.089,"end":495.586,"text":"這個警察跟檢察官一直前來申請保護鏈的部分大概法官很多都不同意所以希望把它入法也就修在那個根梢法母法裡面來入法那第二個問題就是相對人處理機制這塊這塊可能還要跟衛福部再做一個討論比較細緻的討論來入法才有辦法來推動所以等於說他還有其他的部會要一起協同來處理的是嗎那這不要開玩笑了因為"},{"start":496.226,"end":497.907,"text":"麻煩您也跟這個委員報告一下需要我們這個立法委員來協助你們的請跟我說一下好不好好謝謝莊委員謝謝謝謝部長謝謝署長"}]}},{"id":"150024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a3bcdc72f95b9505487ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a688bd0bdca8ae0fe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:56:19 - 13:02:25","影片長度":"00:06:06","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":366,"end_time":"2024-03-18T13:02:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:56:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時56分）請部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員午安。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，今天的議題真的非常重要，這幾年來，校園暴力事件頻傳確實是一個事實，我們看一下校安通報數據，大學暴力事件與偏差行為從101年的347件到112年的1,069件；高中職101年2,441件到112年的8,462件；國中從101年的2,653件到112年的8,339件；國小101年是968件，112年是9,368件。管教衝突事件和兒童少年保護事件也都一樣，101年到112年都是直直的往上升，教育部今天的檢討部告或是整個報告看起來還是沒有辦法解決問題。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，是因為教育部強烈要求地方政府和學校通報，當學生在校園內受到霸凌或是其他不當的對待時，不要隱忍，學校有通報的責任，所以委員才會看到112年的通報數比101年增加，這也反映過去擔心學生受到不當對待後不敢說，所以這些年我們是以這樣的態度要求，因為唯有知道個案，學校後續才能知道要如何去做下一個階段的處置，甚至要如何對學生做處理，所以我想……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，通報的結果，因為你剛是講通報……"],["潘部長文忠：不是，委員，這個是通報的數據。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為學校通報了，所以才會有這個結果，但是有這樣的結果，這麼多年來卻沒有很好的因應措施，我們現在要談怎麼去因應這些、減少這些。通報是應該的，一定要通報，但是要怎麼去減少和解決這些問題？這個才是重點。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們就講你們報告裡面提到的「校園安全四策略」，事前預防絕對要做，但是這個事前預防就是三、四行字，要怎麼做顯然沒有達到事前預防。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！委員那個報告當然是擇要，這裡面我們有詳細的計畫辦法，都是到達學校。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，緊急處理、外部支援、輔導介入。我們現在不是要去究責，我們沒有要究責，現在是怎麼去解決這些問題，所以這個部分要請教育部審慎的跟學校、老師好好討論，這個外部資源已經太慢了，有沒有可能有更好的方式？因為老師也很難，光靠老師是不夠的，到底要怎麼解決？外部資源有沒有可能？我也很想講，但是到底講好不好，我不知道。譬如說既然已經發生這種事情，剛剛吳委員提到就檢查，最起碼不要受傷害，大部分的學生不要因為暴力受傷害，這是一個需要好好檢討的地方。另外，如果真的是需要，有沒有可能增加警力？要增加警力派駐到學校協助維護，這個大家都要討論，跟教育界、老師討論，真正去解決這些問題，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們有一些措施也都在往下落實，我們會再跟縣市學校這邊做更多的努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：尤其是教官2030就全面退出校園了，教育部是否有因應措施？這些都一定要討論，要去檢討，好好的去處理。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員、謝謝部長。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員。","今日登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢了，另外有吳春城委員、陳冠廷委員、沈伯洋委員及羅智強委員提出書面質詢。"],["委員吳春城書面質詢：","邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","一、目前「特殊教育法施行細則」第九條清楚說明並規範個別化教育計畫，其是指運用團隊合作之方式，針對身心障礙學生之個別特性所訂定之特殊教育及相關服務計畫（Individualized Educational Program; 簡稱：IEP），透過IEP系統，教育工作者、家長和學生可以更好地協作，確保身心障礙學生獲得適合他們需求的教育。","目前教育部是否有在研擬，借用IEP的理由及機制，建立一套「個別化的輔導計畫」，來提早預警脆弱家庭、難以發揮輔導管教功能家庭或有偏差行為的學生，即早進行輔導，以降低校園暴力事件發生之機率？","二、依「學生輔導法」第6條規定：學校應視學生身心狀況及需求，提供發展性輔導、介入性輔導或處遇性輔導之三級輔導。第7條規定：學校校長、教師及專業輔導人員，均負學生輔導之責任。108課綱目前教師員額編制中，普通高中每班2.25、高職商業家事類科2.5人、農工海事類科3人，目前幾乎每位教師都要超時授課，負擔沈重。","為提升學校輔導人力量能，教育部對於調高高中班級教師員額編制的態度為何？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","議程：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會）","一、師生比分齡降低","（教育部）部長，您是國民教育背景出身，過去幾年也看到你投注相當多的心力在國教階段。我今天想跟你討論學齡前幼教師生比的問題。我要再次強調支持學生之前，要先支持老師。","尤其最近以來兒虐事件的發生引發許多社會共鳴，我身為兩個孩子的父親，也非常於心不忍。但當社會都在咎責相關人士之外，我認為我們的制度對幼教老師也非常不友善。","我同意正向管教很重要，但當師生比高，再加上幼童需花更多心力輔導，老師在分身乏術的狀況下，要怎麼要求他們兼顧每個學生的需求，甚至必須壓抑情緒進行班級管理。這些部長同意嗎？","我知道去年教育部開始「鼓勵」幼兒園師生比降到1比12，但這對非營利幼兒園來說，卻是個遙遙無期的目標。","部長，非營利幼兒園相較公幼因為沒有寒暑假、可以課後留園，甚至在接受特教疑似生上面，也比公幼、私幼還要有彈性，因此家長需求非常大。","全教產早在去年也就提醒，相較公幼招生不足已普遍發生，除了台北市、新北市外，其餘縣市公立幼兒園招生均未達80%，尤其部分縣市公立幼兒園招生僅達50%左右，但是非營利幼兒園的招生，則平均達90%以上。","部長，你曾針對調降師生比，表示不會躁進，會確保師資品質，但現行狀況就是非營利幼兒園現場老師壓力非常大，一切要遵照政府評鑑，也要接收私幼不收的學生，導致老師流動率高，教學品質恐下降。","部長，針對大家瘋狂把孩子往非營利塞，造成師生比降不下來，你有什麼看法？","我認為教育部應該要更積極對應狀況，盡快提出相應的對策，像是依年齡調降師生比、盤整公共化幼兒園師資量。","二、學生赴外研修計畫","部長，說完幼教，我們來討論高教的國際合作。我想先肯定教育部跟外交部在處理宏都拉斯留台學生的態度上，基於善意與人道精神，為台灣爭取許多軟實力的基礎。","目前看來，政府確實花很多心力希望爭取邦交國、國際學生來台就讀、交流、參訪；但我們學生爭取政府赴外研習的機會看起來就偏少。","甚至，是民間的NGO補充了這個角色。像是長風基金會、龍應台基金會等，這些都有定期的旗艦計畫送學生出去，那我們政府卻還在原地踏步。","部長，我知道我們有公費留考、有各校負責甄選的學海飛颺，或是退一步來說，有青年趨勢論壇讓我們學生可以在國內跟外國青年交流。","那教育部有沒有選送赴外交流、實習的旗艦計畫？像是僑委會的「搭僑計畫」、外交部的「赴海外INGO實習計畫」，我就覺得很值得教育部參考，並精進成自己的學術文化交流計畫，選送我們的學生出國培植國際移動力。","我再提供幾個例子給部長，印太地區的澳洲有「新可倫坡計畫」（New Colombo Plan）、紐西蘭有「總理亞洲獎學金」（New Zealand Prime Minister's Scholarships）等，這些計畫的學人，未來都是紐澳串連國際合作的重要節點，我卻沒看到教育部在這上面有所著墨。","部長，教育部有「高等教育國際合作基金會」，但我看到大多數的工作是去海外參加教育展、推廣華語文教育，幫忙招生，把人拉進來；那教育部或是基金會有沒有計畫是反向的，透過基金會跟外國學校媒合，把學生送出去？","我要強調，自己國家的人才是最值得投資的。花大錢把人吸引來台很重要，但讓我們自己的學生獲得政府提供的資源赴外代表台灣，是為台灣爭取國際能見度，更主動地也更重要的方法。","三、百大獎學金","（教育部）部長，兩週前，教育部宣布增列哈佛大學為「教育部與世界百大合作設置獎學金」的合作學校，每年選送5名學生赴外，我看到是一則以喜、一則以憂。","喜的部分是，很開心看到教育部積極為台灣開拓留學的機會與資源。但憂的部分是，這個獎學金是不是淪為合作學校的金庫。","部長，學生申請百大獎學金跟公費留考程序與經費分攤並不一樣。百大是先有學校，再申請，學雜費也是台灣政府跟校方共同分攤；公費留考則是先考上，再申請學校，學雜費由政府全額資助。","這兩者的差別就在於外國學校通常會比較喜歡收公費留考的學生，畢竟校方就不用在給錄取通知的時候，多給獎學金。","此外，百大也是先撥經費合作校，但沒有義務足額錄取。這美其名是對方想挑選最優秀的學生，但實際是對方校可能扣著這筆錢養利息，讓我們學生看得到申請不到，有損國家利益。","舉去年的數據來說，合作的16校裡面，有8校不足額，前年則有9校不足額，甚至「韓國科學技術院」的錄取人數已經連三年掛零。","部長，我們在跟合作校簽署備忘錄時，是沒辦法要求對方要保障錄取名額嗎？我們納稅人用來培育人才的經費，一直被扣在合作校不作為，只能期待合作學校的善意，我覺得並不合理。"],["委員沈伯洋書面質詢：","查少年事件處理法第83-1條有關「前案紀錄塗銷」之規定，係為保障少年不因該紀錄不當標籤而影響其健全之自我成長及復歸社會，同時亦避免少年遭受歧視，及可能對其入學、就業或人身安全造成影響。惟司法院稱：經參考國外法制、國際公約等規範意旨，將規劃朝「增設塗銷條件（如受刑之執行完畢三年內，未有觸犯刑罰法律之行為或少年刑事案件者，始得視為未曾受各該宣告，並塗銷其前案紀錄）」等方向，進行修法。","然依據犯罪學「標籤理論（labeling theory）」的實證研究，司法對於青少年偏差行為的負面評價，包含相關資訊及前科紀錄，如未適時塗銷或不當外洩，將形成個人的烙印和標籤，且因青少年的心理能力薄弱，無法承受社會壓力帶來的沉重心理包袱，很可能自我修正為犯罪人形象，不利其再社會化，而成為青少年再犯罪的心理因素。司法院「增設塗銷條件」之規劃，恐將影響青少年健全之成長及其復歸。","綜上，少年前科紀錄是否塗銷、該塗銷制度應否修正，事涉少年保護政策得否有效確保少年得以健全成長並復歸社會。司法院所稱，其已參考外國法治、國際公約等規範意旨，其中是否有解讀錯誤之可能？且司法院於今年二月間亦曾邀集學者專家、兒少團體等代表，共同檢視少事法之修法方向，席間各方意見如何，外界亦無從得知。","為確保少年得以健全成長並復歸社會，且為釐清兒童權利公約相關規範，爰要求司法院應於一週內送交二月間少事法學者專家會議之紀錄予本席，並規劃邀請兒童權利公約國際審查委員就「前案紀錄塗銷」之規定，召開國際研討會；研討會之相關規劃及期程安排，請於一個月內以書面送交本席。"],["委員羅智強書面質詢：","從2016年到2023年，校園暴力與偏差行為從6959件增加到27511件，暴漲3.95倍。並且有學齡層越低、暴力與偏差行為漲幅越大的情況。尤其是國小部分，占比從2016年的16%（1152件），增加到2023年的34%（9370件）。現在等於是每三件校園暴力與偏差行為，就有一件發生在國小。請問教育部對此有何因應作為？","此外，除了暴力大幅提升，這6年學生試圖輕生的統計，根據教育部資料，也從2016的1089件增加到2022年的11670件，暴增10.7倍。主計總處的資料也指出，以年齡分層來看，2015年到2022年，10至14歲的每十萬人自殺死亡率從0.5上升到1.6、15至19歲從2.8增加到5.4。數據顯示，青少年的自殺死亡率不只增加2至3倍，與校園暴力相同的是，學齡層越低，漲幅越大。請問教育部對此有何因應作為？","校園暴力氾濫、青少年自殺率高漲，請問教育部，近年導致數據暴增的根本原因是學校功能失能，還是家庭功能失能的原因更多些？","目前行政院將貧窮、犯罪、失業、物質濫用、未成年親職、家庭照顧功能不足的家庭定義為「脆弱家庭」，根據六都社會局資料顯示，六都的脆弱家庭通報個案中有超過5成為兒少家庭。現在校園端的問題，很多來自於家庭端；現在家庭端的問題，很多來自於經濟端。政府雖然說經濟20年以來最好，但事實上是，財富的果實，很多其實集中在高科技業，然而多數人從事的服務業，薪資不只停滯不前。考量物價成長，甚至還出現實質總薪資倒退的情況。去年的實質總薪資，就出現7年以來首度負成長的情況，衰退1.04%。","政府應當正視，過去8年房價物價高漲、貧富差距擴大，對很多家庭的嚴重影響，造成家庭脆弱化，從而衍生的教育問題。很多老師向本席反映。看到許多孩子因為家庭失能而飽受煎熬，然而學校、老師卻無法解決家庭的問題，感到十分無力。建請教育部，進行行政院級跨部會協調與商議，從教育端、家庭端和經濟端著少，解決目前日益嚴重的校園暴力與青少年自殺問題。"],["主席：今天的會議我們作的決定如下：","報告及詢答完畢，委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料，或是未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面來做答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.98346875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.114093750000002,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.40909375,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.03659375,"end":18.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.23784375,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.836593750000002,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.304718750000003,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.979093750000004,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.61596875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.67909375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.45096875,"end":47.112218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":49.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.12409375,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.19971875,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.971593750000004,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.56971875000001,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.87096875,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.37971875000001,"end":93.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.28159375,"end":99.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.45409375000001,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.24596875,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.70971875000001,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.37596875000001,"end":118.79721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.19784375,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.08346875000001,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.18159375000002,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.54846875,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.71659375000002,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.85971875,"end":181.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.47096875,"end":184.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.98096875000002,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.61284375000002,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.32909375,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.97846875000002,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.47596875000002,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.09596875000003,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.93534375000002,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.52971875,"end":215.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.14909375000002,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.17409375000003,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.70971875,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.05971875,"end":225.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.40909375,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.31596875000002,"end":232.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.57284375,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.61471875,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.57596875000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.21721875000003,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.70221875000001,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.42346875,"end":243.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.21221875,"end":247.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.44784375,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.65409375000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.44659375000003,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.11721875,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.27721875000003,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.50471875,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.06534375,"end":270.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.04346875000005,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.10596875000005,"end":280.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.08409375,"end":284.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.91034375000004,"end":288.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.81284375,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":292.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.20471875000004,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.09471875,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.90846875,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.35971875,"end":299.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.93346875000003,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.70534375,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.62471875,"end":307.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.67909375,"end":311.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.71221875000003,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.42034375000003,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.85846875000004,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.52034375,"end":324.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.52846875,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.16534375000003,"end":330.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.71346875,"end":331.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.68784375,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.71721875000003,"end":343.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.14596875,"end":344.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.51721875000004,"end":351.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.83284375,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":363.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.43409375000005,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":365.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.39159375,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.62346875000003,"end":366.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.045,"end":10.828,"text":"好 部長部長 謝謝不好意思部長 這個有關"},{"start":30.342,"end":52.641,"text":"今天的一個議題真的是一個非常非常的重要但是這幾年來我們對於這個校園這方面的暴力事件頻傳確實是一個事實我們看這個下一張下一張好我們看這個"},{"start":54.246,"end":57.628,"text":"從101年大學到112年從101年的347件到112年的1069件暴力事件以偏差行為高中子101年的2441件到112年的8462件"},{"start":79.239,"end":85.442,"text":"國中101年是2653件到112年的8339件國小101年是968112年是9368管教衝突事件一樣兒童少年保護事件都一樣從101年到112年"},{"start":109.341,"end":121.395,"text":"指指的往上所以這個今天我看這個這個教育部的檢討報告或是這個整個報告裡面看起來還是沒有辦法解決問題"},{"start":123.334,"end":146.659,"text":"我跟委員報告這個通報是教育部強烈的要求地方政府跟學校因為當學校在校園內受到比如霸凌或有其他這些不當對待不要隱忍學校有通報的責任這才會讓委員看到這個在112年比111年會有再降的通報數的增加"},{"start":147.719,"end":147.999,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":177.94,"end":188.518,"text":"因為有通報所以有了這個結果但是有這樣的結果這麼多年來卻沒有很好的因應的措施我們現在談"},{"start":190.219,"end":205.424,"text":"怎麼去因應這些 怎麼去減少這些竟然通報是應該的 一定要通報但是怎麼樣去減少 怎麼去解決這些問題這個才是一個重點我們看這個 我們就講這個你的報告裡面的校園安全4策略事前預防 絕對要做"},{"start":219.718,"end":221.838,"text":"我們現在不是要去究責,我們沒有要去究責"},{"start":248.476,"end":274.895,"text":"我現在就怎麼去解決這些問題了怎麼去解決這些問題所以這個部分是這個要請教育部要去審慎的要跟學校、老師要好好討論所以這個部分到底這個外部支援已經太慢了太慢了那有沒有可能有更好的方式"},{"start":276.398,"end":303.572,"text":"有沒有更好的方式因為老師也很難啊老師也很難啊光靠老師是不夠的也很難到底要怎麼樣去解決外部之言有沒有可能我也很想講但是到底講好不好我不知道譬如說既然已經發生這種事情"},{"start":305.316,"end":331.587,"text":"剛委員提到說就檢查就檢查嘛最起碼不要受傷害嘛大部分學生不要因為暴力然後受傷害這個是一個需要去好好地檢討的地方另外如果真的是需要有沒有可能增加警力增加啦 要增加警力就派出到學校"},{"start":333.969,"end":334.129,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":356.97,"end":361.535,"text":"教育部是否有因應措施都一定要討論要去檢討要去好好地去處理"}]}},{"id":"150023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8f0e825423161a1687ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a67a48185b157db2555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:48:03 - 12:55:47","影片長度":"00:07:44","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":464,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:55:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:48:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時48分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員午安。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長好。我想這些年大家都非常關心校園安全的問題，尤其從去年新北市發生國中生刺頸案，到最近我們又陸續看到新聞報導，北投高中特教生因為情緒而和老師發生衝突，接著陸陸續續又有一些案子，其實這些問題都突顯出一個滿嚴重的問題，那就是現在校園暴力行為不斷的攀升。大家可以看到100年到112年，國小、國中和大學暴力事件的數字，這個圖表是我從教育部校園安全暨災害防救通報處理中心資訊網上所找到的資料，你可以看到，這個資料顯示，100年到112年國小的暴力事件爆增將近8倍；國中與大專院校的暴力事件，這10年也大概提升了2到3倍以上，這在在的顯示校園暴力事件這個問題已經不是最近才發生的，而是這10年來長期都可以看到的狀況，我想請問，部長，你看到這樣的統計數字有什麼看法？"],["潘部長文忠：是，跟委員報告，確實過去校園內學生跟學生間的衝突，甚至是霸凌，社會各界都很關注，所以教育部近年強力的要求要通報，因為過去很多孩子受到霸凌都不敢講，就是所謂的「隱忍」，我們一直覺得這個現象學校應該要真實的通報，委員應該有看到這幾年的數據。當然這個重點是學校通報後，我們才能夠做後續的查處和進一步的追蹤。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長的回應。我想，基本上，這個部分已經不是單純的被霸凌，很多的衝突事件都是在校園裡面發生的，你認為這個部分跟現在校園裡面，師長和學校的管教越來越無法施展是不是也有關係？就是因為校園裡面老師和學校都不敢管教，所以才會放任這種暴力衝突事件發生，這個部分你怎麼看？就是有關現在學校和老師的教育管教權。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，確實，我也在教育現場聽過這樣的聲音，因為有時候老師在進行管教時，家長基於愛護孩子等等的，難免會產生不同的意見，也有所謂的申訴等等的，這個確實會對老師有一定的影響。我跟委員報告，這次在輔導管教注意事項的阻卻違法事項上，大家討論後也有做一些比較具體的改變。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，瞭解，謝謝。請問一下部長，你一定也常常出國，你知道出國時經過海關，海關人員會針對我們的行李進行檢查嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：會。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，那你認為為什麼有檢查的必要？他這樣檢查沒有侵害我們的隱私權嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為這個跟航空的安全有關，我想這個各國都同樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：簡單來說，這個跟公共安全有關，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那為什麼學校的老師對書包進行檢查就會侵犯隱私權？難道這跟學校的安全無關嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為過去的檢查過程有點過度了，所以才會有一些討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，基本上，你們就是站在保護學生隱私權的立場。有關這個部分，其實這個應該要回歸由學校自行去訂定校規，然後依據各學校不同的狀況來規範學生的獎懲行為。依照現行法律，校規是不是應該由學校自主來訂定呢？"],["潘部長文忠：校規訂定要經過學校的校務會議。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的。"],["潘部長文忠：這要有充分的討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，OK！謝謝。我們知道，其實現在各學校訂定校規都是依據高級中學教育法或是國中教育法，同時也要依照教育部的懲戒規定。總之，很重要的是，他們會依據教育部所頒布的注意事項。請問一下，部長，你認為注意事項的法律性質是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：注意事項主要是根據學生輔導法，教育部訂定這個是要給學校做參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝，你們的注意事項第一條講了，基本上，這個是要訂定學生輔導管教辦法，但是你們一直沒有這個輔導管教辦法，你們是用注意事項來取代輔導管教辦法，本席認為這樣的法律作為很不恰當，你們應該要將輔導管教注意事項的內容提升到法律的位階。就這個部分，你們是不是應該要檢討一下學生輔導辦法？或者未來在國教辦法以及高等教育辦法裡面，把相關的內容明確化，要把它訂定在法律裡面，而不是用一個注意事項。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，學輔法這個規範是要讓學校訂定這個，所以教育部才會用注意事項，因為訂定的主體是學校。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是說，基本上，你們的注意事項學校可以不用注意，它只是參考而已，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：注意事項就是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，所以學校也可以不遵守、不看這個注意事項的內容，它可以依照自己的需求，經過校務會議來擬訂校規，校務會議通過的校規可以超越注意事項的內容，所以學校也可以自己訂定規則，在校規裡面說我要檢查書包？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為這個注意事項只是輔助的性質。當然，我也要跟委員報告，因為委員談到……"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，謝謝教育部長澄清注意事項只是輔助的性質，它只是一個行政指導，所以學校沒有義務要遵守這個注意事項，學校可以依據自身校園的秩序、安全來訂定更為嚴格的校規，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁委員，如果翁委員還有任何的問題，麻煩翁委員私下再直接跟教育部對話。因為時間的關係，麻煩列席委員遵守5分鐘的發言規定，謝謝。","接下來請吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員。","鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.64221875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.746593750000002,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.49534375,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.09471875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.40034375,"end":145.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.94659375,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.04221875000002,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":181.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.38221875000002,"end":216.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.32034375,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.50784375,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.03846875000002,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.05784375000002,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.70721875,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.64284375000003,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.92096875000001,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.24346875000003,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.31096875000003,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.96471875000003,"end":268.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.92221875,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.53346875,"end":272.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.35596875000005,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.34284375000004,"end":291.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.86721875,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.48284375000003,"end":295.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.48659375,"end":300.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.09784375000004,"end":307.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.84346875,"end":328.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.92471875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.97471875,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.49784375,"end":333.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.56534375,"end":333.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.59909375,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.83534375000005,"end":335.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.08846875,"end":339.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.35346875000005,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.41659375,"end":384.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.18596875000003,"end":391.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.79346875000005,"end":398.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.06159375000004,"end":431.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.74034375,"end":403.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.45721875000004,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.46471875000003,"end":462.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.45221875000004,"end":465.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.94971875000005,"end":465.96659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.803,"end":5.207,"text":"主席,有請部長"},{"start":10.842,"end":18.744,"text":"是部長好我想這些年其實大家都非常關心校園安全的問題那麼尤其從去年發生了這個新北市國中生的這個刺警案然後到最近那又陸續看到新聞上有這個北投高中的這個特教學生的這個情緒他跟老師之間的衝突然後陸陸續續又還有一些案子其實這些問題其實都"},{"start":39.31,"end":42.377,"text":"重寫了一個蠻嚴重的問題就是在現在的校園裡面的暴力行為是不斷地攀升麻煩下頁"},{"start":50.916,"end":75.301,"text":"大家可以看到其實從100年到112年有關於就是國小、國中和大學的暴力事件的數字那這個圖表其實是來自於教育部有個校園安全暨災害防救通報處理中心資訊網上面我所找到的資料那在這個資料裡面顯示你可以看到其實從國小的暴力事件從100年到112年它暴增將近8倍那麼國中"},{"start":81.222,"end":82.323,"text":"部長,您看到這樣的統計數字,您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":105.286,"end":123.269,"text":"跟委員報告確實過去校園內這種學生跟學生之間的一些衝突甚至霸凌的社會各界都關注所以教育部在近年也強力的要求因為過去也都說很多孩子真的受到霸凌或什麼又不敢講就所謂的隱忍"},{"start":124.11,"end":129.792,"text":"這個現象我們一直覺得學校應該要更在這上面真實的去把相關的情形要做通報所以我們對通報上這幾年我也有看到這樣的一個數據當然這個重點或是你通報之後後面對於查處跟我們才能夠進一步的去做這方面的追蹤"},{"start":145.739,"end":146.2,"text":"謝謝部長的回應"},{"start":162.828,"end":163.649,"text":"對於現在的學校跟老師的教育管教權"},{"start":182.421,"end":185.182,"text":"我跟你們報告因為也確實在校園現場我也聽過這樣的聲音因為有時候老師在做進行管教那有時候會面對家長也可能會基於可能愛護孩子等等的也難免會產生一些不同的意見"},{"start":200.308,"end":200.428,"text":"請問一下這個部長"},{"start":222.142,"end":234.65,"text":"您也常常有出國您知道我們出國的時候經過海關海關人員會針對我們的行李進行檢查嗎?會那您認為為什麼有檢查的必要?他這樣檢查沒有侵害我們的隱私權嗎?"},{"start":236.048,"end":244.754,"text":"委員我想因為出入大概跟這個尤其是航空的這方面的安全我想到各國大概都簡單來說這跟公共安全有關是不是然後麻煩下一頁那麼為什麼學校的老師還有這個來進行這個書包的檢查這就侵犯了隱私權難道也不與這個難道不會與這個學校的安全有關嗎跟我們報告"},{"start":262.125,"end":266.806,"text":"因為過去檢查的過程也出現了一些有點過度的有些是過度了所以才會有些討論我想就是有關於這個部分其實這應該是要回歸到由每個學校自己去訂定校規然後依據學校的各個不同的狀況來規範學生的這個獎懲的行為現在其實依照我們現行的法律校規應該是不是由學校自主訂定呢"},{"start":292.112,"end":295.617,"text":"校規定定要經過學校的校務會議,等於說也是一個充分的討論我們知道其實現在各個學校裡面訂立校規不是就是依據了這個"},{"start":309.225,"end":310.226,"text":"請問一下部長您認為教育是這個注意事項法律性質是什麼"},{"start":329.716,"end":351.965,"text":"主要是根據這個有關學生輔導法那叫不定這個是給校做參考在您的這個注意事項的第一條裡面有講的就是這是要這個依據這個基本上是要去訂定學生輔導管教辦法但是你們一直沒有這個輔導管教辦法但是卻用一個注意事項來取代輔導管教辦法那本席認為說這樣子的一個"},{"start":354.366,"end":354.406,"text":"主席"},{"start":368.713,"end":384.305,"text":"最後了所以就這個部分的話是不是你們應該基本上要去檢討有關於學生輔導辦法或者是說未來在國教辦法以及在高等教育辦法裡面自己要去把相關的內容把它明確化"},{"start":385.27,"end":389.992,"text":"學務法這個規範是讓學校訂定這個所以教育部才會以注意事項來因為訂的主體是學校所以就是說您的注意事項它基本上學校可以不用注意所以它只是參考而已是不是那注意事項就這樣啊"},{"start":406.26,"end":428.752,"text":"對,很好,所以就是學校也可以不遵守這個不去看到這個注意事項裡面的內容他也可以依照他自己裡面的這個經過校務會議通過之後擬定校規所以校務會議的校規通過的校規他是可以就是超越這個注意事項裡面的內容所以學校也可以自己定定規則在校規裡面說我要去檢查書包"},{"start":431.733,"end":431.893,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":461.894,"end":462.115,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac2cf3888f20ecb6e87ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6165d56d12b5959f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:41:14 - 12:47:58","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":404,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:47:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:41:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長和體育署署長。"],["主席：部長和體育署署長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好、署長好。延續上一次質詢的主題，就是足協每年都拿國家上億元的補助，結果卻連足球員的錢都在欠。上一次我質詢完了之後，馬上就接到投訴，上次署長說，去年欠的錢都還完了，但是署長可能忘了補一句話，那就是前年的錢一堆都還欠著，為什麼前年的錢一堆都還欠著？那時候是鄭文燦擔任足協理事長，他當時說，中華男足睽違3年半首勝，要發30萬元獎金鼓勵全隊，結果我收到這些足球國腳的投訴，他們投訴什麼？他們投訴，你根本不用講到鄭文燦所說的那30萬元獎金，因為到目前止，連出場費、集訓費和車馬費，我表格上面所列的這些國腳，他們一致的反映都是一毛錢都沒有拿到，這是足協對待我們這些國腳的方式嗎？署長，這件事情你有沒有掌握？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前足協還有8,000萬元的債務，的確還包含大約400萬元是選手及工作人員的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要欠到什麼時候？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分目前足協和廠商，以及一部分的……"],["黃委員國昌：足協和廠商怎麼樣，我不管，我care的只有足球員的權益。"],["鄭署長世忠：對，他們已經承諾今年這一季會優先償還選手的欠款。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣叫優先償還？"],["鄭署長世忠：他們是從今年這一季開始。"],["黃委員國昌：當初發生這件事情時，足協秘書長是誰？"],["鄭署長世忠：當時累積的債務是我之前那一任秘書長──方靖仁的期間所累積的。"],["黃委員國昌：我說的是踢這一場，就是鄭文燦宣布要給人家30萬元獎金，那個時候秘書長是誰？"],["鄭署長世忠：這一場的經費應該已經還了。"],["黃委員國昌：那時候秘書長是誰？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分是我。"],["黃委員國昌：是你？有還嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分應該已經還了。"],["黃委員國昌：我再跟你講一次，這些人全部都投訴沒有給。"],["鄭署長世忠：112年12月之前的的確還沒有還，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有給嘛！就是你當秘書長的時候嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：我是12月的時候擔任秘書長，這一場應是還了。"],["黃委員國昌：你們可以這樣子對待足球國腳嗎？更離譜的事情是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，去年的出場費足協的確已經在去年陸續償還，但是111年之前的，他們的確沒有辦法還。"],["黃委員國昌：我再問一次，你說有陸續償還，那是償還了哪一個人？大聲的講出來。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，112年的的確沒有再虧欠，但是足協也表明了，他們現在還有欠款，還在努力償還。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在具體的問，2022年國際足球友誼賽，你們好大喜功的頒了30萬元的獎金，結果搞到現在都2024年了，你們連出場費都沒給，可以這樣搞哦！可以這樣搞哦！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，他們已經在陸續償還，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：要欠這些球員欠到什麼時候？"],["鄭署長世忠：他們希望今年可以還清這400萬元。"],["黃委員國昌：你們這些人當初去當理事長、秘書長，現在是當行政院副院長、體育署署長，結果你們拍拍屁股，不關你們的事了。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，它快速累積債務的期間並不是在我任內。"],["黃委員國昌：到底是在誰的任內，你們自己去吵，足球員關心的事情是什麼？他們為我們國家爭光，結果到現在還被欠錢，部長，你可以接受嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，他們是代表國家去比賽，我們一定要做最大的努力，我也一直請署長協調，因為他瞭解這個生態，這個債務一定要設定償還的期限，剛才委員提到的球員出場費……"],["黃委員國昌：你們是設定到什麼時候？現在這些足球員很無助，他們被人家踢來踢去，當初你們很會做新聞、很會做公關，真的，足球員連出場費都沒有拿到，現在卻無人聞問，部長，這個你可以接受嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分教育部體育署已經有澈底要求，我剛才有跟委員報告，今年一定要解決積欠的欠款。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說今年？你們要欠到年底哦？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我是說要積極、趕快處理這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多少時間？需要多少時間？你們不敢給大家答案哦？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，就今年內。"],["黃委員國昌：更離譜的是什麼？這件事情請部長和署長回去查清楚，他們錢沒有拿到哦！結果中華民國足協的扣繳憑單竟然寄給人家了，發扣繳憑單的是足協。我那時候知道這件事情後大驚失色，球員沒有拿到錢，結果扣繳憑單說要扣他的稅，部長，你會不會覺得很誇張？這是怎麼回事？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個非常的不適當。"],["黃委員國昌：錢到哪裡去了？獎金的錢沒有給人家，但是卻有扣繳憑單欸！現在是足協把錢放在口袋裡面，沒有發錢給球員，然後出扣繳憑單說，欸！你的錢已經入帳了，要扣稅。部長，這件事情要不要徹查？"],["潘部長文忠：體育署已經在查辦。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情要不要徹查？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？我老實跟你講，這個已經不是欠錢不還，這個是偽造文書、違反商業會計法，沒有給人家錢，還敢出扣繳憑單說錢都給了，離不離譜？部長，需要多久？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，體育署現在正在查處這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["潘部長文忠：3個月內好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：3個月，需要這麼久哦！"],["潘部長文忠：因為要查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：把他們叫來問一問就知道了，錢沒有給，扣繳憑單卻可以出，這是誰決定的？當年扣繳憑單是怎麼發的？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個我們一併查處好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：1個月好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員，謝謝部長和署長。","接下來請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.08909375,"end":9.278468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.93596875,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.15534375,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.30721875,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.20159375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.75659375,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.39534375000001,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.09971875000001,"end":84.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.09346875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.24034375000001,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.19346875000001,"end":102.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.85471875,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.52534375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.35159375,"end":110.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.68471875,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.32159375,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.27846875,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.37471875000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.65721875000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.09534375,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.76096875000002,"end":140.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.47784375,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.84846875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.02971875,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.87346875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":147.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.14721875,"end":148.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.05409375000002,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.25221875,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.39971875,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.33159375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.42784375000002,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.13659375,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.29659375,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.33034375,"end":163.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.34721875,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.35971875,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.46096875,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.29534375,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.34971875000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.39159375,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.54346875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.19659375,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.86534375000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.21096875,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.49346875,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.31596875000002,"end":202.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.37471875,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.26909375000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.57284375,"end":204.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":204.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.92721875,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.40346875,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.09096875,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.90409375000002,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.93346875,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.80596875,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.41721875000002,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.15096875,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.20096875000002,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.23471875,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.79159375,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.89284375000003,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.94346875000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.97721875000002,"end":236.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.05721875,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.01284375000003,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.90659375,"end":258.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.11284375,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.53409375,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.04409375,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.23784375,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.25471875,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.16159375,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.10221875,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.84784375000004,"end":283.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.38346875,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.88846875,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.22534375000004,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.47409375,"end":296.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.62596875,"end":297.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.73971875,"end":297.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.34284375000004,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.35971875,"end":300.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.94596875,"end":303.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.30409375,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.97471875,"end":312.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.26471875000004,"end":321.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.75284375,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.03534375000004,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.81159375000004,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.43596875000003,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.96721875000003,"end":326.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.98409375,"end":327.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.01784375,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.84034375000005,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.67971875,"end":344.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.27659375,"end":345.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.29346875000005,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.99784375,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.40284375000005,"end":348.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.29284375000003,"end":350.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.38534375,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.21221875000003,"end":352.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.52846875,"end":354.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.08096875,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.58284375,"end":358.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.89471875000004,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.78471875,"end":367.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.97346875000005,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.02409375,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.80034375,"end":368.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.32346875,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.66909375,"end":375.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.42346875000004,"end":378.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.09409375,"end":380.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.10221875,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.36784375,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.97096875,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.91596875000005,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.93284375,"end":385.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.24909375000004,"end":387.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.86909375000005,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.63659375000003,"end":392.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.42534375,"end":392.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.61096875000004,"end":395.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.36971875,"end":398.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.44096875,"end":403.46159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.547,"end":32.239,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長還有體育署署長部長還有體育署署長 謝謝委員好部長 署長也許上一次執行的主題就是足協竟然拿了國家每年拿了國家上億的補助結果連足球員的錢都在欠上一次執行完了以後我馬上就接到投訴了"},{"start":32.919,"end":57.018,"text":"上一次署長說去年欠的錢都還完了但署長可能忘了附加補一句前年的錢一堆都還欠著為什麼前年的錢一堆都還欠著我們的主協理事長那個時候鄭文燦那時候鄭文燦在到主協理事長的時候說中華男竹睽違三年半首勝要發30萬獎金鼓勵全隊"},{"start":59.84,"end":84.429,"text":"結果我收到我們這一些足球國角他們的投訴是什麼他們的投訴是你根本不要講鄭文燦所講的30萬獎金連出場費、集訓費、車馬費到目前為止我在表格上面所列的這一些國角他們一致的反應是一毛錢都沒有拿到"},{"start":86.382,"end":92.835,"text":"這個是我們足協對待我們這一些國角的方式嗎?署長這件事情你有沒有掌握?"},{"start":94.226,"end":117.957,"text":"報告委員目前竹鞋還有八千萬的債務目前的確還包含大約四百萬是選手的部分以及工作人員的部分所以要欠到什麼時候報告委員這部分竹鞋目前跟廠商還有竹鞋跟廠商怎麼樣我不管啊他們已經承諾今年所以這一季是以選手的這部分的欠款優先來償還這樣叫優先來償還喔他是以今年這一季開始"},{"start":122.638,"end":140.443,"text":"當初這件事情發生的時候竹協的秘書長是誰當時在累積的債務是在在我之前的那一任秘書長方敬仁的期間累積表現我說在第一這一場鄭文燦宣布要給他30萬獎金這一部分這一場的經費應該已經還了那時候秘書長是誰這一部分是我是你 有還嗎這一部分應該已經還了我再跟你講一次"},{"start":149.365,"end":171.996,"text":"這些人全部投訴在12月111年12月之前的的確還沒有還沒有錯沒有給嘛就你當秘書長的時候嘛我是在12月的時候當秘書長這一場應該是還的可以這樣子對待足球國角嗎更離譜的事情是什麼報告委員去年足場費他們的確足血有在去年的部分差點陸續償還但是他們的確在111年之前的確沒有辦法還你說陸續償還償還了哪一個人"},{"start":176.434,"end":194.668,"text":"報告委員112年的確沒有在虧欠但是他們足協的確表明他們現在還有現場還在努力在執行參觀2022年國際足球友誼賽浩大喜功啊頒30萬的獎金啊結果搞到現在2024年啊連出場費都沒給啊可以這樣搞喔可以這樣搞喔報告委員他們已經在陸續參觀沒有錯"},{"start":203.243,"end":222.691,"text":"要欠這些球員欠到什麼時候?他們希望在今年可以把這400萬把它還清你們這些喔當初去當理事長、當秘書長現在當行政院副院長、當體育署署長拍拍屁股不關你們的事了報告委員在他累積快速累積債務的期間並不是在我任內到底是在誰任內啊?你們自己去吵足球員關心的事情是什麼?"},{"start":231.373,"end":235.692,"text":"幫我們國家為國爭光,到現在還欠錢,部長可以接受嗎?"},{"start":237.799,"end":265.913,"text":"委員這個我想代表國家去我們一定要做最大的努力那我也一直請所長因為他對這個生態也了解啦那也積極的說目前這個債務的償還一定要設定剛才委員所提到的對球員的設定到什麼時候現在這些足球員啊很無助啊他們被人家踢來踢去踢來踢去啊當初做新聞很會啊做公關很會啊真的足球員連出場費都沒拿到"},{"start":267.376,"end":288.476,"text":"無人聞問啊!無人聞問啊!部長可以接受嗎?委員這個部分我想教育部體育署這邊也做了徹底要求剛才我跟委員報告的今年一定要解決虧欠……原因說今年喔?要簽到年底喔?他現在我是說能夠積極趕快處理這個事情需要多少時間?需要多少時間?"},{"start":295.287,"end":312.005,"text":"不敢給大家答案喔委員就今年內嘛更離譜的是什麼這件事情請部長、署長回去查清楚錢沒有拿到喔結果竟然中華民國足協的扣腳平單寄給人家咧發扣腳平單的是足協欸"},{"start":313.399,"end":325.618,"text":"我那時候知道這件事情後我大驚失色欸球員沒有拿到錢結果有扣繳平單說要扣他的稅部長你會不會覺得很誇張這是怎麼回事錢到哪裡去了"},{"start":328.888,"end":351.941,"text":"沒有獎金錢沒有給人家有扣繳平單欸現在是錢逐血放在口袋裡面沒有發錢給球員然後出扣繳平單說欸你的錢已經入帳了要扣稅部長這件事要不要徹查提訴已經在查辦這件事要不要徹查是喔需要多久"},{"start":353.561,"end":381.805,"text":"我老實跟你講喔我老實跟你講喔這個已經不是欠錢不還喔這個用偽造文書喔違反商業會計法喔沒有給人家錢趕出扣繳平單說錢都給了離不離譜部長需要多久委員這不是讓體育署因為他現在正在查處這件事需要多久需要多久三個月內好不好三個月需要這麼久喔那查清楚嘛"},{"start":382.741,"end":383.262,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員 謝謝部長署長"}]}},{"id":"150021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a4a5031a5b363f7a91b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a67ddab3ead9da41ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:40:40 - 12:46:15","影片長度":"00:05:35","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":335,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:46:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:40:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時40分）謝謝主席。有請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，恭喜您高票當選。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。主委，我們大家對於ETF都相當的關心，也會討論到金管會的整個監督及相關的職責。我們就舉2020年發生的一件事情來跟您就教討論，也就是元大原油ETF的這個問題。簡單來說，元大在2020年的時候有一個負油價之亂，當時針對ETF的討論就非常的多，主要是在2020年4月20日因為新冠疫情在全球爆發，石油價格首次跌入了負數區間，當時WTI也就是西德州原油的石油價格一開始暴跌到負38塊美元，按照規定，ETF淨值為負值的時候，主委，我們的投信需要做怎樣的一些處置給投資人？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時是沒有什麼下市的這些特別規定，沒有所謂通過股東會要下市的規定，當時好像是公告之後，因為低於那個指標，後來好像就下市了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，當時的狀況確實是這樣；但是我們看到元大投信在過程當中的問題，我們來看下一張圖，他們那時候為了因應這個狀況，把這個石油期貨自行改成遠倉1.2倍，等同於是鎖死了淨值於0.5元，不再連動這個油價的漲跌。我要問一下主委，這樣子的做法是合法合規的嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我必須要說您非常專業，拿這個個案來問我，您問合不合法，我現在真的記不到那麼清楚；但是當時是有裁罰就對了。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道有裁罰，我等等會講；但這個會造成一個狀況，就是他們用調整合約的方式，你看到這個圖，雖然一開始是跌的，但它後續是反彈上去的狀況，可是我們的淨值已經鎖死了，所以你看下面那條橘色的線，元大S&P原油正2完全沒有上漲。照理來說WTI往上飆升，它跌下來的時候你看它是一起跌，結果在2020年4月21日鎖死之後分離了，變成後續WTI上漲的時候，元大也沒有上漲。這裡發生一個狀況，就是有投資人不知道，他們以為還是兩倍連動，所以就不斷追買，然後又有淨值低於兩塊錢要下市的規定，等於在4月21號買進的投資人已經注定用高價去購買一個必然虧損下市的產品。我們要問這種狀況對投資人是公平的嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我記得這個，但是詳細內容我這邊沒辦法講得那麼精確，的確他們改遠倉鎖淨值，當時是有爭議的，後來在裁罰上也列入一個內容。但我覺得更重要的，像元大石油正2這種槓桿型商品，它屬於避險短期操作型，不太適合做長期的投資，他在篩選投資的時候，當時也有一些需要去調整的地方。"],["徐委員巧芯：我要問的是，元大當時在4月21號改遠倉1.2倍鎖淨值的時候，你們知不知情？如果你們知情，但是你們沒有立刻糾正或是阻止散戶去購買，你們明明知道散戶這時候買進一定會虧損下市，卻沒有設定一個保護投資者權益的規定，最後只輕輕罰了元大60萬，可是對投資者來說，他可能是賠盡自己的身家，真的有可能是這樣的狀況；我們後來也知道金管會對元大提出四大要點，今天時間不夠，我不一一講，就裁罰它60萬。我要問的是，金管會後續對類似這樣子的情況，有沒有什麼樣的一個精進作為？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，因為時間有限，我們會後會跟委員報告，後面對於它達到一定指標，要下市的那些程序，包括分割、反分割這些都有做一些規範，因為時間有限，我怕講得不正確，會後再跟您報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：會後麻煩跟我報告。最後我要表達的是，當時有講如果有例外狀況的話可以調整契約等等，過去的例外狀況，在ETF來說，比方說泰國紅衫軍抗議事件造成休市，這是例外狀況，沒有錯；可是這又是什麼例外狀況？基本上是投信可能會因為這樣賠錢，然後就反過頭來鎖死，欺騙跟坑殺了散戶。所以，我們希望第一個金管會未來的策進作為，第二個金管會有沒有裁罰過輕的問題，以及元大在全臺灣發行ETF的投信當中占比規模是最大的，未來我們在管理的部分要如何進行，麻煩主委再提供我們更精確的說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會照委員的提示去處理，謝謝委員的指導。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢。","接著請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","接著請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接著請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員，游顥委員不在。","接著請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接著請黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","好今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本日會議作如下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員質詢及未及答復或請補充資訊，請金管會及央行於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者，從其所定；三、本日會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。休息。","休息（12時47分）","資料來源︰主計總處","� 從國民所得會計恆等式觀點，經常帳順差與超額儲蓄是一體兩面。國民所得支出面：Y ≡ C + I + G +（X-M）；國民所得分配面：Y ≡ C + S + T，在 G = T（財政收支平衡）的假設下，可推得 X ─ M ≡ S -I，即經常帳順差，反映超額儲蓄。同樣地，超額儲蓄係指將政府與民間的儲蓄用於國內投資後所剩的資金。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.88221875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.61909375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.20534375,"end":72.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.17971875,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.62596875,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.94096875000001,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.49409375,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.13784375,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.89159375,"end":193.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.85721875000002,"end":218.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.64659375000002,"end":264.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.40721875,"end":275.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.08909375,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.83909375,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.08784375,"end":328.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.73909375,"end":332.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.71346875,"end":331.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.99159375000005,"end":334.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.634,"end":12.162,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想我們有請這個金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":16.656,"end":43.249,"text":"委員恭喜您高票當選謝謝主委那個我們大家對於ETF都相當的關心那也會討論到金管會的整個監督的這個相關的職責那我們就舉2020年發生的一件事情來跟您做一個就教討論也就是當時元大的這個原油ETF的一個問題那簡單來說呢當時元大我們看到在2020年的時候有一個負油價之亂"},{"start":44.389,"end":71.404,"text":"那負油價之亂當時針對ETF的討論就非常的多那主要呢在2020年4月20號因為新冠疫情在全球爆發所以石油價格首次的跌入了負數區間那當時WTI也就是西德州原油的石油價格一開始它暴跌到負38塊美元那按照規定呢ETF淨值為負值的時候主委我們的投信需要做怎樣的一些處置給投資人"},{"start":74.77,"end":95.231,"text":"當時是沒有什麼下市的這些特別的沒有那個所謂通過股東會要去下市的規定當時好像就是公告之後就後來因為低於那個指標之後後來好像就下市了對 這個確實當時的狀況是這樣但是我們看到過程當中原大投信的問題"},{"start":96.192,"end":113.169,"text":"他那時候為了因應這個狀況我們看下一張圖他們把這個石油期貨自行改成遠艙1.2倍等同於他是鎖死了淨值於0.5元不再連動這個油價的漲跌我要問一下主委這樣子的做法是合法合規的嗎"},{"start":115.618,"end":134.147,"text":"我必須要說您非常專業拿這個個案來問我我真的要直接問你合不合法我現在真的記憶記不到那麼清楚但是當時是有裁罰就對了我知道有裁罰我等等會講但總之呢這個會造成一個狀況就是它用調整合約的方式呢它等同於是什麼"},{"start":134.707,"end":149.53,"text":"因為它後續你看到這個圖嘛它雖然一開始是跌的但它後來反彈了它反彈上去的狀況可是我們的淨值已經鎖死了所以變成你看下面那條橘色的線元大S&P它原油完全沒有上漲"},{"start":151.452,"end":172.754,"text":"這裡來說WTI它往上飆升它本來跌下來的時候你看它是一起跌結果它在2月12號2020年12月它反鎖死這件事情之後4月21號對不起鎖死之後它分離了變成後續WTI它上漲的時候元大它也沒有上漲這發生一個狀況是又有一個"},{"start":174.075,"end":190.695,"text":"這個投資人不知道所以他以為還是兩倍連動所以他們不斷追買然後呢又有禁止低於兩塊錢要下市的規定他等於在4月21號買進的投資人已經注定用高價去購買一個必然虧損下市的產品我們要問這種狀況對投資人是公平的嗎"},{"start":193.905,"end":218.203,"text":"我記得啦這個當然詳細我這邊沒辦法講得那麼精確的確他改免倉所禁止當時是有爭議的那後來在裁罰上也列入了一個內容但是我覺得更重要的就是說這種原大石油障礙這種槓桿型他是屬於避險短期操作時不太適合做長期的投資他在篩選投資人的時候當時也有一些需要去調整的地方"},{"start":218.683,"end":242.781,"text":"好那你們如果因為我要問的是說當時4月21號元大改原倉1.2億被鎖禁止的時候你們知不知情因為問題是如果你們知情但是你們沒有立刻的糾正或是阻止散戶去購買那這樣的話你們明明知道散戶如果這時候買進他一定會虧損下市可是我們卻沒有設定一個保護投資者權益的最後只輕輕的罰了元大60萬"},{"start":244.022,"end":264.253,"text":"那對於投資者來說他可能就就是真的是賠盡自己的身家都有可能做這樣的狀況然後我們後來也知道元大有四大你們今晚會有提出四大要點今天時間不夠我不一一講那裁罰他60萬我要問的是後續我們金管會對類似這樣子的情況我們有沒有考慮有什麼樣的一個精進作為"},{"start":265.461,"end":282.591,"text":"有,我因為時間有限我會後我們會跟您報告但是後面對於那個他達到一定指標他要下市的那些程序包括那個那個叫分割反分割這些都有做一些規範那因為時間有限我怕我講的不正確"},{"start":283.731,"end":311.472,"text":"好那你會後麻煩給我報告那最後我要表達的說當時有講說啊什麼如果有例外狀況的話可以調整契約等等的過去的例外狀況可能在ETF來說比方說啦泰國紅山軍抗議事件造成休止這是例外狀況沒有錯可是這是什麼例外狀況啊這基本上就是投信可能會因為這樣賠錢然後呢就變成是他反過頭來鎖死就欺騙跟坑殺了散戶所以我們希望第一個"},{"start":311.932,"end":331.267,"text":"金管會未來的策進作為金管會有沒有財閥過輕的問題以及袁大升為他全臺灣發行ETF的投信當中佔比規模最大的那未來我們在管理的部分要如何進行麻煩我們主委再提供我們更精確的說明好嗎我們會照委員的提示去處理謝謝委員的指導謝謝謝謝我們徐小琴委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac1e0ab7e7a7ff2c087ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6498159baeeef385c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:35:14 - 12:41:09","影片長度":"00:05:55","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":355,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:41:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:35:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":947,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時35分）謝謝柯召委。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。部長，過去我一直在教文委員會，我們也已經就今天相關的校安問題跟孩子的輔導問題當面溝通好多次。但是很遺憾，或說我認為好還可以更好的是，發生一連串事件是告訴我們不夠好，我們還必須再檢討、再改進、再加強。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["何委員欣純：譬如說以校安來講，我講得比較實務面。除了新北市這個孩子的割頸事件，前些日子臺中某校園也有家長攜帶武士刀進入校園。所以，在校安管理的實務面上，我覺得教育部是不是應該積極處理？包含國教署與地方政府教育局體系、警政體系、社會安全網體系，如何在實務面上讓校方在事前就可以預防？事前如果沒有辦法預防，事後如何面對、處置？我覺得整個緊急應變SOP是全國性的問題，目的是保護我們的孩子。部長，這幾件事情發生之後，教育部的檢討是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，當然，在這起事件之後，教育部邀集各縣市還有相關團體、校長、老師們做了滿多討論，也將原來跟校安有關的、老師輔導管教的注意事項全面調整，當中確實也在老師的輔導管教方面，賦予老師一些更合理、有效的管教……"],["何委員欣純：部長，我舉個例子，曾經有基層教師跟我反映，比如說孩子帶了一些比較危險的物品進入學校，但放在書包裡，老師沒有權限搜書包，這是第一點。第二，老師從何得知學生可能攜帶危險物品？這涉及部長剛剛講的，我們可以給校方或老師到哪個程度的SOP？"],["潘部長文忠：對，我再跟委員報告，安全檢查這件事也是這次討論裡非常重要的重點之一。"],["何委員欣純：也包括我剛剛講的家長攜帶武士刀進入校園，誰可以發現他帶了武士刀？"],["潘部長文忠：是，所以在這個部分，我們也像委員所說的，有非常完整的、可操作的手冊，讓學校可以進行這方面的工作。","剛才委員提到一點非常關鍵，學校本來就有相關的應變小組與演練，因為我覺得透過演練這件事情才能提升他們的能力，真的碰到緊急事項時也可以應變。"],["何委員欣純：部長，應該是說就各種情境加以模擬、討論，甚至建立起你剛剛說的機制，思考在面對不同情境下的安全問題時如何緊急、即時反映跟處理，在第一時間如何跟其他相關單位，譬如說警政單位合作，如何面對這種緊急、危急的狀況。我知道寫手冊、寫SOP是必要的，但是模擬現實、實務面上發生當下如何處置其實更重要。"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員所提的這個真的是關鍵。現在學校本來就有跟鄰近警政單位合作的機制，而且這是每所學校都要具備的。"],["何委員欣純：這都是一定要做的，我知道。"],["潘部長文忠：甚至是用最緊急件處理，也就是發生的時候按鈕一按，事實上就會連結到我們說的……"],["何委員欣純：派出所或是鄰近的警政單位就對了。"],["潘部長文忠：他們就會進來支援。","至於剛才委員提到那個演練，在我們給學校、縣市的規劃裡本來就有，每學年一定要。但是對於落實這件事，我覺得教育部可以再積極一點。"],["何委員欣純：落實這件事情很重要。"],["潘部長文忠：對，對於有些影響很大的，而且可能是常見的，我們應該連結做成一些範例，讓他們可以練習，因為跟警政單位的聯繫其實也包含這一段。我們真的要防患於未然，有時候學校覺得不會發生什麼，但一旦發生就手忙腳亂，那些傷亡等等可能就會造成，所以我想在這件事情上面，教育部會再往下針對一些常見的樣態，除了每學年之外，學校一定要針對各種樣態練習，我覺得這方面應該要做。"],["何委員欣純：應該要更多。"],["潘部長文忠：其實這樣的練習對孩子、老師和教職人員來講，也是一種危機防護意識。"],["何委員欣純：這個可以保護校園裡的人身安全，沒錯，所以拜託部長，這個一定要跟地方教育局一起來做好，然後把它落實。"],["潘部長文忠：好，這個我們會再強化。"],["何委員欣純：另外，因為時間不夠，我還是要提醒部長，校園裡面的毒品問題，這個很多家長都不斷的在關心跟反映，希望政府應該要有更積極的作為。還有學生輔導法，這個過去我們有修法，所以輔導人力要增加和補強，我希望這部分能夠到位和落實，事後是不是請教育部給我一個書面報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，這個我們提供書面報告給委員參考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.89846875,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.94721875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.37034375,"end":123.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.23659375,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.30284375000002,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.31971875000002,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.75846875000002,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.70346875,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.88784375,"end":160.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.39409375,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.42784375000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.32971875,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.56159375000001,"end":195.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.86534375000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.03409375,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.53409375,"end":319.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.03846875000002,"end":250.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.24409375,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.58784375,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.76971875000004,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.49721875,"end":311.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.71596875,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.19221875,"end":319.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.69409375000004,"end":323.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.07784375,"end":324.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.06471875,"end":325.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.44846875,"end":325.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.46534375000005,"end":325.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.58346875,"end":325.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.60034375000004,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.70159375000003,"end":326.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.65596875,"end":347.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.65971875,"end":353.41034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.883,"end":6.586,"text":"謝謝召委科召委喔那我們是不是請部長好 部長"},{"start":11.525,"end":16.086,"text":"部長好,好久不見部長過去我一直在教育委員會我們也就今天相關的校園問題跟孩子的一個輔導問題我們已經當面溝通了好多次但是很遺憾或是說我認為好還可以更好就是說我們發生了一連串的事件告訴我們不夠好我們還必須要再檢討再改進"},{"start":38.353,"end":39.053,"text":"臺中某校園也發生了家長攜帶武士刀進入校園"},{"start":56.161,"end":56.961,"text":"校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷：何欣純"},{"start":77.146,"end":95.834,"text":"事前就可以預防事前如果沒有辦法預防的時候事後如何面對處置我覺得這個整個緊急應變的SOP這個是全國性的問題是保護我們的孩子所以部長就這幾件事情發生了之後我們的檢討是什麼"},{"start":96.454,"end":125.401,"text":"是 跟委員報告當然就這些事件後教育部邀請各縣市還有我們相關團體校長、老師們大概做了蠻多討論也把原來跟這個校安有關還有老師的輔導管教那個注意項做全面的調整那這個裡面確實也在老師的輔導管教這上面能夠賦予老師有一些更合理有效的這個管教部長我舉個例子成就基層的教師就來跟我"},{"start":125.981,"end":151.425,"text":"對﹖對"},{"start":151.718,"end":152.619,"text":"家長攜帶武士刀進入校園誰可以發現他裡面有帶武士刀"},{"start":168.182,"end":179.086,"text":"所以在這個部分我們也做了像委員所說的有一個非常完整的可操作的這個手冊主要是讓學校可以來進行這方面那當然委員提到一個非常關鍵的那個學校還是要我們對於已經就是本來就有相關應變的這個小組跟演練因為演練這件事情我覺得才能夠提升他們真的碰到緊急事項也可以去做應變"},{"start":196.773,"end":212.248,"text":"各種情境去做一個模擬去做一個討論甚至建立起你剛剛說的不同情境之下的一些安全問題我們如何能夠緊急及時的反應跟處理"},{"start":214.13,"end":239.218,"text":"又如何在第一時間上面可以跟其他相關的單位比如說警政單位如何合作如何來面對這個緊急的危急的一個狀況這個其實我知道寫手冊寫SOP是必要但是模擬在現實實務面上發生的當下如何處置其實是更重要是是委員所提的這個真的是關鍵因為現在我們所給學校的本來在有關"},{"start":243.659,"end":250.865,"text":"跟臨近的這些警政單位就有一個合作的這個每個學校都要具備政治是用最緊急鍵發生的時候你一按事實上就會連結到那個派出所或是臨近的警政單位就會來支援那剛才委員提到那個演練本來在我們給學校縣市的這個裡面就有每學年一定要但是落實這件事情我覺得教育部可以再繼續"},{"start":271.34,"end":274.682,"text":"對 因為覺得有些我們比較我們說影響很大的而且可能常見的我們應該來連結做成一些讓他們也可以做一個範例可以做練習因為跟警政單位的聯繫之間其實也包含這一段我也覺得用這個真的要防範於未然我們覺得怕學校有時候也覺得說不會發生什麼但一旦發生就會發現手忙腳亂"},{"start":295.691,"end":319.531,"text":"﹗"},{"start":319.811,"end":323.652,"text":"所以再拜託部長這應該跟地方教育直接來做好然後把它落實那另外當然時間不夠我還是要提醒部長校園裡面的這個毒品問題這個很多家長都不斷的在關心跟反映希望政府應該要有更積極的作為那還有學生輔導法過去我們修法所以呢我們那個輔導的人力要增加要補強那我希望能夠到位跟落實"},{"start":348.038,"end":351.203,"text":"事後是不是再請教育部給我一個書面報告?好,這個我們提供書面給委員參考"}]}},{"id":"150019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a91d9a14cd10ceb871b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a602f04ea77d4790aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:33:37 - 12:40:19","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":402,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:40:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:33:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1082,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時33分）謝謝主席。金管會、央行有請。"],["主席：請黃主委以及嚴副總裁。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，恭喜您高票當選。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。今天我們第一次來財政委員會質詢，當然年輕世代非常關心的一個問題，就是熱錢的流動導致後續的一些影響。最近新聞上有各式各樣的產品推陳出新，顯然我們的超額儲蓄率也越來越高，我們就直接進入主題。理論上來講，一個國家如果要健全運作的話，我們當然希望超額儲蓄能夠被有效利用，而不是在那個地方閒置。當然你的報告裡面也有寫，看起來2023年好像有稍微控制住，但是根據主計總處的資料：2024的超額儲蓄預估會達到3兆8,400億元，又再一次創歷史新高。所謂超額儲蓄是儲蓄跟投資的差額，超額儲蓄越多，閒置資金其實就越多，政府當然有責任應該要將它合理的導引到投資市場。目前政府對超額儲蓄這一塊的掌握是怎麼樣？央行說明應該比較清楚，對不對？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，其實這個議題一直存在，我們對外也講過很多次，超額儲蓄的問題跟我們的經常帳順差有關，經常帳順差的問題的跟我們的資金外流也有關，所以在鼓勵降低我們的超額儲蓄或者是經常帳順差的那種運用的時候，我們在報告裡面提了三個大方向，除了國內外的實體投資之外，我們也希望引導家庭部門的儲蓄轉到金融業的投資、金融活動的投資，同時我們也希望未來能把我們的超額儲蓄應用在整體國家取得關鍵基礎設施或者是關鍵的這種……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以大概分成三個部分，第一個希望企業繼續擴產或者是多角化經營做實體投資；第二個希望家戶的儲蓄可以有效利用；第三個希望可以協助中央政府的重大基礎建設，就是這三個方向，對不對？目前超額儲蓄最大比例的是在哪裡？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：根據主計處的資料，其實家庭部門是我們最大的超額儲蓄……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有喔！就本席的資料了解是企業比較多吧！應該還是企業的超額儲蓄比較多吧。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：沒有，在傳統上企業應該是借錢去投資的，企業不應該成為超額儲蓄的資金提供者；但是您提到一個關鍵問題，我們觀察到從民國98年以後，就是金融危機以來，我們的企業其實是超額儲蓄的提供者，過去我們的企業是超額儲蓄的……"],["牛委員煦庭：理論上是需求者，但現在變提供者……"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在問題就出在這裡，本席今天質詢的重點就是這個。我們應該要合理導引，我們希望不管是產業升級也好，多角化投資也好，本來被認定成夕陽產業的，因為有這樣的一些資本來做新創或者是轉型，這才是國家想要看到的方向；但目前為止，就如同剛剛副總裁所講的，看起來企業不但沒有成為超額儲蓄的需求者，反而成為提供者，這就是問題。我們在基層觀察到的更有甚者，很多企業因為有這樣子的游離資金，結果跑去置產、買土地，炒房地產，我覺得這是一大危機。因為所有的熱錢，不管是外資的熱錢，內資的熱錢，如果都集中在金融市場，甚至不動產也變成金融商品的話，我想對於年輕世代，對於臺灣的居住品質來講，都是很大的衝擊，所以我們希望政府在這一部分做有效的導引。如何導引這筆錢到對的地方？我想輔導產業的升級，創造更多的就業機會，才是應該要做的方向。我們現在有哪些處遇可以做這個事？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，其實過去幾年，政府在很多的公共建設投資或者是鼓勵民間投資方面，也都做了很多的措施在推動這一方面的進展……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限，這一部分請會後提供資料，本席在這個地方要求，因為你們了解錢的流向，當然要跨部會的協調，讓這筆錢用在對的地方。這是第一點。","第二點，我們的黃仁勳先生也不幸中鏢，變成投資商品的介紹者，當然就要談一下投資詐騙，金融商品廣告亂象的問題。這個內容我就不說了，反正就是用名人代言，然後拐資金變成龐氏騙局。金管會蒐集2023年4月到今年3月，一年就有2萬9,000件的投資詐騙廣告，後來當然也有一定的處遇措施，比如所謂的廣告實名制，這個本席都能理解；但是在廣告實名制的這個部分，是上有政策，下有對策！這些人現在不用自然人的名稱，他們用法人到境外成立一個空頭公司，好像合法的，又加上在境外，也就很難來做追查。請問我們的政府機關用什麼樣的方式來阻止這樣的規避行為？"],["黃主任委員天牧：的確啦，包括最近電子簽章法通過都可以有助於實名制，不過您提的這個新態樣，因為我們正在跨部會訂定打詐法，老實講境外的東西真的很難去規範，看看是不是在打詐法上面能做一些調整，能夠涵蓋這些不當的行為。"],["牛委員煦庭：我相信不管是立法委員或是行政院應該都對這個東西高度重視，作為主管監理機關，對於一些相關的意見，應儘量來蒐集，儘量來提供，讓這些法規在健全的過程中有更多的專業意見，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：也請委員多指導。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。另外，去年通過的投信投顧法修正案就是要阻絕這樣的事情，然後針對的是大型平台，比如Google跟Meta，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：問題是我覺得有殺傷力恐怕不是Google跟Meta，因為大家辨別的能力在上升，私人的LINE群組是個大的問題，對這一部分有什麼方法可以阻止嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，當初在修投信投顧法時，Google、Meta由金管會管，也都是為了打詐；其實就理論上，Google、Meta平台不是金管會要管的，LINE當時並沒有規範要金管會管，這個可能要統一去做一個數位平台的管理，要再另外……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天把這個問題提出來，並不是就只有大平台，當然大平台先走，但是到真正有殺傷力的這部分，你也要全面管理……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分我想我們再……"],["牛委員煦庭：這是一個跨部會的工作。"],["黃主任委員天牧：了解。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望你們積極的提供意見跟專業的處置方式，慢慢來解決這件事情，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：感謝委員指導。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩位辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接著請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","接著請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","接著請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","現在請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.79409375,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.96221875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.61596875,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.704718750000005,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.61034375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.25971875,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.29721875,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.45284375,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.79846875000001,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.26221875,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.05909375,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.31971875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.70284375,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.50784375,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.34721875000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.35471875,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":125.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.86784375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.62909375,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.04159375,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.93534375000002,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.57596875000002,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.47034375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.04784375,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.91221875000002,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.18596875,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.04221875000002,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.83409375000002,"end":184.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.45909375000002,"end":238.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.70221875000001,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.89534375000002,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.31721875000002,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.51034375,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.01409375000003,"end":297.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.04346875000005,"end":311.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.86096875000004,"end":304.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.02034375,"end":329.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.66721875,"end":343.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.74096875000004,"end":344.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.02784375000005,"end":344.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.05721875,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.95284375,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.28596875000005,"end":384.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.59971875,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.81034375,"end":386.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.13909375000003,"end":388.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.87284375,"end":394.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.91909375,"end":399.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.53034375000004,"end":396.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.52159375,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.20909375,"end":399.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.42846875000004,"end":401.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.59284375000004,"end":401.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.791,"end":6.362,"text":"好 謝謝主席金管會央行有請有請黃主委以及原副總裁"},{"start":7.967,"end":34.864,"text":"委員恭喜您高票當選謝謝辛苦了今天財政委員會我們第一次來質詢當然是年輕世代非常關心的一個問題就是說熱錢的流動導致後續的一些影響最近當然新聞上各式各樣的產品推陳出新顯然我們的超額儲蓄率也越來越高我們就直接進入主題超額儲蓄理論上來講等於是"},{"start":35.845,"end":53.393,"text":"一個國家如果要健全運作的話我們當然希望這個超額儲蓄能夠被有效利用而不是在那個地方去做閒置那當然你的報告裡面有寫看起來到2023年好像有稍微控制住但是根據主計總署的資料2024的超額儲蓄也是預估值會達到三兆八千四百億元"},{"start":54.073,"end":70.625,"text":"又再一次的創了歷史新高所謂超額儲蓄是儲蓄跟投資的差額啦超額儲蓄越多閒置資金其實就越多那政府當然責任剛剛我有講嘛希望應該讓他合理的導引到投資市場那目前政府對這一塊這個超額儲蓄這一塊的掌握是怎麼樣央行說明應該比較清楚吧對不對那個報告委員因為我們"},{"start":79.261,"end":85.074,"text":"其實這個議題一直存在我們對外也講過很多次就是說"},{"start":86.314,"end":108.366,"text":"超額儲蓄的問題跟我們的經常順差有關那為了處理經常順差問題跟我們的資金外流也有關所以我們在鼓勵鼓勵我們的超額儲蓄降低或者是經常順差的那種運用的時候我們在報告裡面提了三個大方向除了國內外的實體投資之外我們也希望引導"},{"start":109.707,"end":109.847,"text":"主席"},{"start":125.948,"end":139.776,"text":"所以大概分成三個部分嘛一個是希望企業繼續擴產也好或者是多角化經營做實體投資第二個希望家戶的儲蓄可以有效利用嘛第三個是希望可以協助中央政府的重大基礎建設這是三個方向對不對我們目前的超額投資最大比例的是在哪裡"},{"start":141.67,"end":157.106,"text":"如果根據我們的資料主技術的資料其實是家庭部門是我們最大的超額儲蓄的沒有我就本期資料了解是企業比較多吧應該還是企業的超額儲蓄是比較多的吧沒有企業在傳統上企業應該是借錢來去投資的"},{"start":158.567,"end":178.665,"text":"企業不應該成為超額儲蓄的資金提供者但是您提到一個關鍵問題我們觀察到從民國98年以後就是金融危機以來我們的企業其實是儲蓄的超額儲蓄的提供者在過去我們的企業是超額儲蓄的"},{"start":178.885,"end":204.006,"text":"理論上是需求者嘛但現在變提供者嘛那問題就出在這裡嘛這本集今天質詢這個的重點就是這個我們應該要合理導引嘛我們當然希望不管是產業升級也好多角化投資也好本來被認定成夕陽產業的要因為有這樣子的一些資本來做新創或者是轉型這個才是國家想要看到的方向但目前為止就如同剛剛副總裁所講的看起來企業不但沒有成為超額儲蓄的需求者反而成為了提供者這就是問題嘛"},{"start":205.507,"end":229.333,"text":"我們在基層觀察到的更有勝者其實很多的企業因為有這樣子的游離資金結果幹嘛跑去自產、買土地、炒房地產我覺得這是一大危機因為所有的熱錢不管是外資的熱錢、內資的熱錢如果都集中在金融市場然後甚至不動產也變成金融商品的話我想對於年輕世代對於台灣的居住品質來講這是很大的一個衝擊所以我們希望政府在這一部分做有效的導引"},{"start":230.546,"end":238.533,"text":"我們如何導引這筆錢去到對的地方應該是輔導產業的升級創造更多的就業機會才是應該要做的方向我們現在有哪些廚藝可以做這個事"},{"start":240.728,"end":269.736,"text":"那個報告委員其實過去幾年政府在很多的公共建設投資或者是跟民間的那種鼓勵民間投資也做了很多的很多的措施在推動這一方面的進展因為時間有限這一部分請會後提供資料我當然是在這邊要求你們是瞭解錢的流向的當然要跨部的協調讓這筆錢用在對的地方這第一個第二個是我們的黃仁勳先生也不幸中標變成這個投資商品的介紹者"},{"start":270.516,"end":296.248,"text":"當然是要談一下這個投資詐騙金融商品的廣告亂象的這個問題這個內容我就不說了反正就是用名人代言然後拐資金變成龐氏騙局那金管會有收集這個從2023年4月到今年3月一年有2萬9千件的投資詐騙廣告後來當然也有一定的處遇措施這個本席理解比如說所謂的廣告實名制但現在的廣告實名制的問題叫上有政策下有對策這些人現在"},{"start":296.988,"end":303.554,"text":"請問我們的政府機關用什麼樣的方式來規避這樣的行為來阻止這樣子的規避行為的確啦因為像報告最近電子簽章法通過都可以有助於實名制不過你提的這個心態一樣因為我們正在跟跨部會定打詐法那當然"},{"start":320.811,"end":344.534,"text":"老實講境外的東西其實真的很難去規範但是看是不是能在打詐法上面能夠做一些調整能夠涵蓋這些不當的行為我相信這很多不管是立法委員也好或是行政院應該對於這個東西是高度重視那我會作為主管監理機關相關的一些意見盡量來做收集盡量來做提供讓這些法規健全的過程中有更多的專業意見可以嗎也請委員多指導"},{"start":345.675,"end":364.178,"text":"那另外一個是大部分現在去年通過叫投信投顧法修正案就是要阻絕這樣的事情然後針對的是大型平台比如說Google跟Meta對不對那問題是我覺得這有殺傷力恐怕不是Google跟Meta因為大家辨別的能力在上升但私人的LINE的群組是個大的問題這一部分有什麼方法可以阻止嗎"},{"start":364.991,"end":383.283,"text":"我跟委員報告當初修投信投物法 Google Meta由金管會管也都是為了打詐其實理論上 Google Meta平台理論上不是金管會要管的那LINE當時並沒有規範到是金管會管這可能是要統一去做一個數位平台的管理要在另外"},{"start":384.003,"end":401.42,"text":"我們希望我們今天把這個問題提出來就是不是只有大平台當然大平台先走但是到真正有殺傷鏈的部分你也要全面管管理這是一個跨部會的工作好不好但是希望你們就積極的提供意見跟專業的處置方式好不好希望慢慢來解決這件事情可以嗎好感謝委員指導好兩位辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5094e3823395fa0487ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a627ee4e6613931c165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:29:27 - 12:34:56","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":329,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:34:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:29:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時29分）有請教育部長和法務部矯正署署長。"],["主席：好，請部長還有周署長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。對於新北這件案子，我想，教育部應該有很多要檢討，先來談轉銜機制。如果從高結構的轉到非結構，要進到學校體制裡，的確有很多問題要面對。整個銜接準備不僅要有連續性，最主要的還是再犯率要下降，可是孩子回到社區裡，如果家庭是失功能的，事實上有點困難。我看現行的轉銜機制，部會間真的都是各做各的。如果要從過去的高結構走向非結構的話，有沒有更多機制把孩子接住？看起來矯正做矯正的，教育部做教育部的，勞動做勞動的，衛福部做衛福部的。今天滿可惜的，教文委員會安排這個議程，我覺得還有一個缺角，就是衛福部，因為要在社區裡把孩子接住的話，的確還是要有社工機制在。","對於整個轉銜，以目前我看到的來說，幾乎就是按照兒少權法第七十一條。我覺得這就要問法務部，因為轉銜只有資料轉銜，事實上幾乎沒有所謂的關係轉銜。這樣的話，第一個，在矯正學校所提供的教育處遇不見得符合孩子的需求，甚至對於他未來回到學校、回歸社區的能力跟意願，有沒有提供比較適合的支持功能？在教育這一塊看起來，事實上是沒有。","甚至在關係轉銜這一塊，前年兒權公約審查時，主席Doek就提到，對於矯治體系裡的孩子，如果要父母銜接上的話，基本上應該要讓父母能去看他。可是有父母住在臺北，跑到桃園去，卻只讓他們面會30分鐘，所以他們問我們，讓家長可以跟少年接觸的可能性到底是什麼？有沒有就近性、便利性？甚至在時間上，我們是30分鐘，韓國還有宿舍，讓他們可以跟孩子建立比較好的關係。為什麼要建立？如果沒有做關係轉銜，一旦孩子回到社區就會發生新北這種案子，也就是到了社區，社工比藥頭跟幫派還難搶到小孩。所以如果不做好社區轉銜，一定會是孩子進到家裡失功能、學校又是一般孩子的狀態，這個少年從高結構走到非結構的時候，要怎麼在學校適應？我希望不是聚焦在教育轉銜，事實上也不要只有資料轉銜，應該做到關係轉銜，所以我說今天很可惜的是衛福部沒有在這邊。我為什麼也在這點名部長跟署長？是希望能談這些東西，而且還是會跟你們有關係的。","如果要轉銜，我們還能做什麼？要把洞補起來，不要再讓一個孩子喪命，第一點是司法不退縮。今天廳長也來了，我也希望未來少年調保官應該更積極地協助轉銜，不知道廳長認為可以嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：沒有問題。"],["林委員月琴：沒有問題喔？希望你們能夠落實相關規定，並積極提供少年必要協助，再麻煩謝廳長。"],["謝廳長靜慧：我們努力來做。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。還有學輔要積極，教育部可不可以趕快把學輔法送出來？已經擱置滿長一段時間了。而且學生輔導諮商中心如果採任務編制、非正式機構，在各縣市運作不太相同的話，基本上幫不上學校的忙，沒辦法把孩子接住。","另外，我覺得這個也已經是社安網的一部分，就是家庭教育中心，本來我們期待的功能已經補社工進去，是不是要讓這些社工更有功能，協助家庭改善？否則孩子回到社區，家裡又失功能的話，根本沒辦法做好事情。部長可不可以要求家庭教育中心主動介入這點加以落實？因為法律裡本來就有規定，可是我現在看不到家庭教育中心的功能。過去我在民間、在六都的兒少委員會的時候，每次提案都提問社工的情況，但有的社工到現在都還沒到位，所以部長可不可以督促各縣市趕快到位？因為轉銜制度的改善方式要從家裡、社區跟轉銜團隊組合。對於我提出的這幾項，麻煩教育部跟法務部達到，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。不過衛福部保護服務司副司長是在現場的，你們可以私下就教。","接下來羅智強委員，羅智強委員，羅智強委員。","何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.57596875,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.664093750000003,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.99596875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.01159375,"end":46.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.36534375,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.76159375,"end":67.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.08784375,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.21534375,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.06096875,"end":145.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.45971875,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.17596875,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.05659375000002,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.59534375,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.58096875,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.26784375,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.33846875,"end":327.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.42284375,"end":328.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.07659375000003,"end":329.97096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.638,"end":10.845,"text":"有請教育部部長及法務部教政署署長"},{"start":22.988,"end":42.129,"text":"我想新北這個案子我覺得教育部應該有很多要去檢討可是先來談就是轉型機制因為從高結構的一個轉到非結構那的確如果你要進到學校體制裡邊的確有很多問題要面對因為整個銜接準備不僅要有連續訓"},{"start":43.25,"end":67.302,"text":"最主要下降我們的再犯率可是孩子進入到回到社區裡邊事實上是家庭如果是失功能的話事實上有一點困難可是我看現行的整個轉型機制大部會間真的就是在各做各的如果事實上是過去高結構要走到非結構的話有沒有更多的機制把孩子接住可是看起來"},{"start":68.483,"end":86.832,"text":"教政做教政的教育部做教育部的勞動做勞動的衛福部做衛福部今天蠻可惜的教文委會安排這個我覺得還有一個缺角就是我們的衛福部因為要在社區裡面把孩子接住的話的確還是要有社工的一個機制在"},{"start":89.727,"end":96.178,"text":"整個的轉嫌目前我看到的幾乎就是按照我們兒童權法裡邊71條我覺得這個就要問法務部這邊因為轉嫌只有資料轉嫌"},{"start":103.803,"end":131.088,"text":"那幾乎事實上是沒有所謂的關係轉型那這樣在矯正學校所提供的一些教育處理第一個也不見得是符合孩子的需求他沒有去提供甚至他未來回到學校裡邊他回歸社區的能力跟意願有沒有提供比較適合的支持功能在教育這一塊看起來事實上是沒有"},{"start":132.288,"end":132.528,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":148.696,"end":177.359,"text":"應該是要讓他能夠去看他可是如果我今天住台北跑到桃園去只讓他面會30分鐘所以他問我們說到底你可以讓家長跟他接觸的可能性是什麼有沒有就近性就便利性甚至時間我們30分鐘韓國還有合宿的那個宿舍那讓他們可以跟孩子有比較建立比較好關係為什麼要建立如果沒有做關係轉線一旦孩子回到社區就會發生新北的這個案子"},{"start":177.619,"end":177.939,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":190.424,"end":190.844,"text":"今天點名部長和署長"},{"start":216.34,"end":216.46,"text":"施法不退縮．"},{"start":241.124,"end":248.995,"text":"沒有問題希望能夠落實這個相關規定然後積極提供我們少年必要的協助再麻煩我們的謝廷長"},{"start":252.895,"end":276.49,"text":"謝謝還有一個學輔邀集席那就是我們的教育部可不可以趕快把學輔法送出來已經擱置了滿一段時間而且學生輔導諮商中心如果採任務編制非正式機構的話在各縣市運作不太相同的話基本上幫不上學校的忙沒辦法把孩子去接住另外一個我覺得"},{"start":277.73,"end":292.444,"text":"這個已經也是社安網的一部分家庭教育中心本來我們期待的功能已經補社工進去是不是要讓這社工更有功能來協助家庭改善否則孩子回到社區家裡又失功能的話根本沒有辦法做好事情所以也請"},{"start":293.345,"end":315.203,"text":"部長這邊對於家庭教育中心可不可以針對應該要主動介入這個能夠落實因為法裡邊本來就有規定可是我現在看不到家庭教育中心功能過去我在民間在六都單獨兒少委員會的時候每次在提案都提說那你們社工有的社工到現在還沒到位所以請部長可不可以督促各縣市趕快到位"},{"start":315.583,"end":315.683,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a3ca6ce84ccd1e85f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a620f50e1797e587f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:26:09 - 12:34:37","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":508,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:34:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:26:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1373,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時26分）謝謝主席，我想請薛部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。部長，前幾天衛福部的門口放了很多民眾要送給剴剴的花，請問你有看過嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這幾天要來立法院，所以我辦公的地方是在疾管署，並沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你沒有看到大家在卡片上所寫的內容。其實是有很多民眾知道這件事之後感到很傷心，也希望未來能幫他討公道，於是就放了很多的花在衛福部門口。比方說我看到其中一張卡片寫著：對不起，剴剴，你不痛了，我們會努力幫你向裡面的討回公道。但是昨天晚上有網友告訴我們，衛福部突然把這些花都清空了，請問去了哪？都丟掉了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不太清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問有沒有衛福部其他的同仁清楚這件事情？因為昨天網路上有非常多人都在詢問：我們送給剴剴的花去哪裡了？"],["薛部長瑞元：我再了解一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天你都來這裡報告了，衛福部沒有任何一位同仁知道發生什麼事情、知道是誰做了這樣的決定嗎？部長，我相信你的辦公位置不一定是在那裡，或是你不一定清楚，但是今天有這麼多衛福部的官員都在場，沒有人知道是誰把花都丟掉了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：可能是秘書處等等的內部單位所做的決定，我回去後再了解一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問，身為一位部長，你認為民眾所送的花在一、兩天內就突然被衛福部，我相信是衛福部啦！不好意思，如果不是的話，但是外面的人不太會去把那些花清掉。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：顯然比較像是你們衛福部，把民眾送給剴剴，希望慰藉他在天之靈的花束都丟掉了，部長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然不太合理，因為這是民眾表達其意願的一個儀式，不應該輕易的就將它移除。我回去後會再了解。"],["徐委員巧芯：請去了解到底是誰做的決定，我相信這個部分也必須說清楚並對外負責，這是最基本的。因為大家看到之後都非常的氣憤，為什麼要送給剴剴的花在一、兩天內就被丟掉了，難道你們不願意讓民眾的聲音出現在衛福部的門口嗎？關於這個部分，請部長回去檢討，好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：再者，今天大家都有問到，兒福聯盟之所以能夠接受新北市政府委託做出養、收養的相關服務，其實是衛福部所發的許可，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：許可是我們發的，沒有錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：許可是你們發的，按照兒童及少年福利權益保障法第十五條第四項，關於出養媒合服務者的條件都有寫明，這是中央的法規，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的考核評鑑，我們都有公布，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們都有公布？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是在中間因為疫情的關係，所以停了一段時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：又是因為疫情！衛福部不能什麼事情都丟給疫情。我問一下，你們是多久要對業者進行評鑑？"],["薛部長瑞元：三年一次。"],["徐委員巧芯：三年一次，請問最近一次的評鑑是在民國幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：107年。"],["徐委員巧芯：107年的時候做的？"],["薛部長瑞元：今年也要做。"],["徐委員巧芯：今年要做？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：是不是已經超過時間了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：針對兒福聯盟相關許可的評估，三年一次的部分是否已經超過原本預定的時間了？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在110年到111年中間本來要做一次，剛好那時候就發生了疫情。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啊！疫情已經過了好一陣子，你們怎麼都還沒有做？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以現在準備要做了。"],["徐委員巧芯：現在是因為這件事情爆發之後才發現要做，還是本來就安排了？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就安排了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們說本來就安排了，但是對民眾而言，就是衛福部當時該做的事情卻沒做到，無論是從網站資料來看或是你們所言，107年的資料是最新的，可是到現在已經過期了，請問這方面的一些責任及問題，衛福部怎麼看？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實除了評鑑之外，每年還有督導考察。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問，這個評鑑的部分什麼時候會完成，並公布給外界參考？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是今年之內就會完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：今年？"],["薛部長瑞元：只有8家，應該很快就可以完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：誠如你所言，只有8家，請問一下，做這樣的評鑑，從開始到完成需要多久的時間？幾個月？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個主要是……"],["徐委員巧芯：一般來講，幾個月的時間能夠完成這樣的評估報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：這有幾個程序要做，第一個是要召集評鑑委員，而且評鑑委員要先取得行前的共識，接下來是實地訪查並看它的資料，回來整理之後還要做最後的評估。"],["徐委員巧芯：整個程序預計要進行幾個月？從一開始到完成評估報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為是一家一家輪流去做，大概是在5、6個月之內。"],["徐委員巧芯：5、6個月？從現在往前推5、6個月，那個時候有疫情嗎？疫情已經結束啦！我的意思是你剛剛所說的都是藉口，從人民的角度來看都是藉口，如果從一開始進行評鑑到完成需要你剛才說的半年時間，如今疫情已經結束超過半年了，為什麼評鑑到現在已經過了這麼久都還沒有做，這點也是你們要檢討的。","最後一點時間，我想看一下權責的部分。關於權責不明的問題，希望中央能夠做比較一致性的法規規範，因為我們可以看到，從新北市政府到兒福聯盟、到保母的訪視是一年12次，臺北市社會局這邊的訪視是一年4次，但是我看過整個報告之後發現，這12次的訪視紀錄不會提供給臺北市社會局，而社會局的4次訪視紀錄理當也沒有提供給兒福聯盟，原本一年可以做12＋4，也就是16次的訪視，但因為中間沒有相關規定讓彼此的資訊透明化，所以彼此都不知道。以這個案子來說，如果資訊能互通是有幫助的喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：怎麼說呢？因為在兒福聯盟的訪視過程中前兩次是被拒絕的，對不對？但是臺北市社會局不知道，所以當那個保母說因為有人COVID-19確診而要延期之後，它以為是第一次，於是就延期了，如果臺北市社會局知道兒福聯盟曾經兩度被拒絕，它就不可能這麼輕放了。"],["薛部長瑞元：一次。"],["徐委員巧芯：一次嘛！我的意思是所謂的12次及4次，未來在資訊上的透明化以及雙邊的協商，是不是中央能做出規定，讓地方執行相關業務時可以更了解，整個過程中所有社工曾經到府訪查的紀錄是什麼，部長？"],["薛部長瑞元：這也是我們這次檢討後在未來需要改善的部分，也就是說，以現階段的狀況來看，社會局把事情丟給兒福聯盟之後，就不再對小孩子進行必要的訪查，有的只是因為監督保母的機構，像是臺北市，它就有去做，但是頻率方面，因為沒有接收到這是特殊個案，所以它就按照原來的三個月一次去做，這個部分的資料沒有互通。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分的資料互通、程序的透明化，麻煩衛福部這邊要統一，讓地方在執行上能夠更順暢，好嗎？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。現在休息30分鐘，大家用餐。","休息（12時34分）","繼續開會（13時4分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請涂權吉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.56971875,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.53096875,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.989093750000002,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.51096875,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.76409375,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.18596875,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.23096875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.69471875,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.92534375000001,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.15721875,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.18971875000001,"end":101.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.70284375,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.77721875,"end":133.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.18034375,"end":125.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.95096875000002,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.14034375,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.06721875,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.26534375,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.14159375,"end":184.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.82909375,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.69221875000002,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.00846875000002,"end":206.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.88971875000001,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.99034375000002,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.17471875,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.93409375000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.13159375,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.42221875,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.86471875,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.21909375,"end":234.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.17034375000003,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.14471875,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.28784375,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.81909375,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.37971875000002,"end":253.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.02659375,"end":271.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.31346875,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.37659375000004,"end":273.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.06346875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.03721875,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.42534375,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.44221875,"end":286.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":294.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.19596875,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.82034375,"end":294.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.85409375,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.47846875000005,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.11971875,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.37221875,"end":321.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.14284375,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.72846875000005,"end":315.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.89659375,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.13596875,"end":327.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.33409375,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.42159375,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.00784375,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.29409375,"end":436.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.36159375,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.63784375,"end":436.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.65471875000003,"end":441.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.90346875,"end":437.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.97034375000004,"end":458.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.71034375000005,"end":467.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.12659375000004,"end":474.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.43784375,"end":476.29409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.78346875000005,"end":478.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.11659375000005,"end":478.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.65659375,"end":495.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.96659375,"end":495.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.81846875,"end":496.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.56096875000003,"end":496.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.57784375000006,"end":496.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.59471875,"end":504.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.62846875,"end":496.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.34034375000005,"end":504.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.09971875,"end":507.96846875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.505,"end":8.929,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想請薛部長好 來部長請"},{"start":13.393,"end":37.93,"text":"委員好部長您知道衛福部前幾天門口放了很多的花那是民眾要送給凱凱的請問部長您有看過嗎因為這幾天是在要來立法院所以我的辦公的地方是在機關署所以你沒有看到那個花上面大家留的卡片寫的內容"},{"start":38.71,"end":57.351,"text":"那其實呢就是有很多的民眾看到這個事情之後很傷心也希望未來可以幫他討公道所以就放了很多的花在衛福部的門口比方說我有看到其中一張卡片他寫說對不起凱凱你不痛了我們會努力讓裡面的討回公道"},{"start":58.032,"end":78.877,"text":"但是昨天晚上左右的時候突然有網友告訴我們說衛福部突然把這些花都清空了請問去了哪?都丟掉了嗎?那請問有沒有衛福部其他的同仁是清楚這件事情的?因為昨天網路上面有非常多人都在詢問我們送給凱凱的花去哪裡了?"},{"start":82.22,"end":111.737,"text":"這我再了解一下你今天都來做這個報告了我們衛福部沒有任何一位同仁知道發生什麼事情知道是誰做了這樣的決定嗎?委員部長我相信你可能你的辦公位置不一定在那裡或是你不一定清楚但是今天在場有這麼多的衛福部的官員都在沒有人知道是誰把話都丟掉了嗎?這業務單位那個可能是這樣這個秘書處等等這種這種內部的一些單位所做決定這我們回去再聊"},{"start":111.817,"end":136.513,"text":"那請問一下您覺得作為一位部長您覺得民眾所送的花那一兩天之內就突然被衛福部我相信是衛福部啦不好意思如果不是的話但是因為外面的人不太會去把那些花去清掉那顯然比較像是你們衛福部去把民眾所送的花希望能夠告這個凱凱在天之靈的一些慰藉都丟掉了部長您覺得合理嗎"},{"start":137.525,"end":160.08,"text":"當然不太合理因為這個是民眾表達他的意願的一個儀式所以這個不應該輕易的就把他移除了我回去我會再請去了解到底是誰所做的決定那我相信這個部分也必須要說清楚那對外來負責這是最基本的因為大家看到了民眾都非常的氣憤覺得我們要送給凱凱的話你怎麼一兩天就丟掉了難道你們是不願意讓人民的聲音出現在衛福部的門口嗎"},{"start":167.205,"end":195.394,"text":"所以請這個部份部長回去檢討好嗎好那再來呢我今天剛剛大家都有問到說兒福聯盟之所以能夠接受新北市政府的委託出養收養這個做相關的服務是衛福部所發的許可對吧許可是我們發的許可是你們發的那所以說按照兒童及少年福利權益保障法的15條第4項關於出養媒合服務者的條件都有寫這是中央的法規對吧"},{"start":198.425,"end":203.648,"text":"衛福部不能什麼事情都丟給疫情因為我問一下我們是多久要對業者進行評鑑的三年一次那請教最近一次做評鑑是在民國幾年"},{"start":220.285,"end":225.609,"text":"所以在110年到111年中間本來要做一次嘛,剛好那個時候就是疫情"},{"start":242.222,"end":269.945,"text":"那不是啊,疫情已經過了也好一陣子了,你們怎麼都還沒有做?那現在是因為我們這個事情爆發出來之後,我們才發現要做,還是本來就安排了?你們說本來就安排,可是對民眾來說,就是你們衛福部當時應該做的事情沒有做到。因為不管是從網站上或是你們所說的,就是107年的是最新的,可是已經過期了。那請問這方面的一些責任跟問題,那衛福部怎麼看?"},{"start":271.753,"end":296.029,"text":"當然這我們其實除了評鑑之外的話每年還有這個督導考察好那請問這個評鑑的部分什麼時候會完成公布給外界做參考應該今年之內就會完成今年只有8家應該很快只有您說的嘛只有8家所以我請問一下做這樣子一個評鑑從開始到完成需要花多久的時間幾個月我們一般來講幾個月的時間能夠完成這樣子的一個評估報告"},{"start":300.744,"end":326.746,"text":"這個是有幾個程序要做第一個就是要召集這個評鑑委員然後對於評鑑委員的部分的話大家要先取得行前的共識然後就是去訪查去實地訪查去看他的資料那回來的話還要再做整理之後的話還要做那我們就問這個整個程序我們預計是要進行幾個月從一開始然後到完成評估報告"},{"start":328.993,"end":340.238,"text":"這個因為一家一家輪流去做啦所以大概是在大概5、6個月左右5、6個月那我們現在往前推5、6個月有疫情嗎?"},{"start":341.44,"end":370.138,"text":"疫情已經結束啦所以我的意思是說您剛剛所說的這都是藉口從人民的角度來都是藉口如果從一開始要來做評鑑到完成您說的大概是半年的期間疫情已經結束超過半年了那為什麼這個評鑑到現在還過了這麼久沒有做這個也是你們要檢討最後一點時間我想看一下那個全責的這個部分這那張圖片幫我放一下這張圖片這最後我要來跟部長您說一下"},{"start":370.618,"end":370.778,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":400.798,"end":420.806,"text":"所以原本一年可以做的是12加416次的訪問可是因為說中間我沒有相關的規定讓彼此資訊透明化所以彼此都不知道以這個案子來說如果資訊有互通是有幫助的怎麼說呢因為這個兒福聯盟他們去訪吃前面有兩次被拒絕嗎對不對"},{"start":421.866,"end":440.644,"text":"可是臺北市社會局不知道所以那個保姆他講說我們這裡有COVID-19確診要延期之後他以為是第一次所以他就延期了但如果臺北市社會局知道兒福聯盟這邊曾經兩度被拒絕他們就不可能這麼輕放一次一次嘛所以我的意思是說這個所謂的"},{"start":442.665,"end":458.477,"text":"12次跟4次未來在資訊上面的透明化跟雙邊的這個協商是不是我們中央能夠來做規定讓地方在執行相關業務的時候可以更了解過程當中所有的社工曾經到到府訪查的記錄是什麼部長"},{"start":459.598,"end":477.734,"text":"這一個部分也是這次我們檢討以後需要改善的也就是說以現階段的狀況就是社會局就把事情丟給兒福聯盟之後的話他就不再去對於這一個小孩子去做必要的一個訪查"},{"start":478.755,"end":478.935,"text":"徐巧芯委員．"}]}},{"id":"150016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab9fbc1ee09f984281b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a689994ed8b8cd28915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:25:56 - 12:33:26","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":450,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:33:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:25:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時25分）謝謝主席。有請黃天牧黃主委還有央行嚴副總裁。"],["主席：有請黃主委跟嚴副總裁。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好、好久不見。"],["林委員楚茵：主委好、副總裁好。很感謝召委有先見之明，安排了今天這樣一個題目，我想最近在關鍵字當中，確實在我們身邊很多過去不在乎金融理財的朋友，都會在群組裡面討論這個高配息的ETF到底應該買嗎？以這兩檔來說，不知道金管會了不了解這兩檔所謂的高配息ETF在近期當中大概募集了多少資金？"],["黃主任委員天牧：知道的同仁是不是來報告一下？統一的那檔大概好像五百、六百億。"],["林委員楚茵：一個是五百、六百億，另外一檔呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：531？940那一檔多少，我不知道，應該有超過一千多億。"],["林委員楚茵：一千？兩千？數字還沒有統計出來，是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：由同仁來說好了。"],["高副局長晶萍：因為他們是到禮拜五……"],["林委員楚茵：他們募集到15號，對不對？"],["高副局長晶萍：對，所以他們還在統計。"],["林委員楚茵：還是我們的證交所有答案？"],["高副局長晶萍：大概是1,700億左右。"],["林委員楚茵：一千七然後再加五百，至少有兩千多億會進入我們國內的市場當中。主委，我們過去其實不只一次在聊這個話題，就是臺灣這個投資性的商品不夠多，尤其是投資國內，把錢留在國內；很多時候我們賺進來的錢，可能都是買國外開發的商品，如果是這樣的話，就整體來說、就金管會的立場，覺得這是一個好的現象嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得只要這個商品充分告知客戶這個資訊，也了解客戶的屬性，這就沒有什麼大家要特別去關注或是打壓的問題，不會！"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝主委。我要請教嚴副總裁的是，剛剛講到一個大概是五百多億，一個大概有一千七百億，所以至少會有兩千兩百億的資金進入台灣的市場。過去我們都一直擔憂國內投資性的商品不夠，熱錢就會進入房市，而今天我們的題目也講了，希望避免炒房；問題是，很多人質疑為什麼突然間兩檔號稱高息的ETF進入市場之後，大家都把錢掏出來了，是不是因為過去利息過低的關係，以至於有人解定存，甚至用房子去借貸，然後換取更多可運用的資金來賺這個利息之間的差價？央行有這樣的疑慮嗎？或央行有聽到這樣說法嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員提到臺灣資金這種長期的剩餘問題，其實跟我們過去以來的超額儲蓄或者是經常帳順差有很大的關係，面對這種情況之下，其實我們也一直鼓勵大家，賺到那麼多錢要充分的對外投資、對內投資，這是我們過去堅持的一個看法。"],["林委員楚茵：副總裁，我的意思是這2,200億進入我們的市場之後，主委剛剛也說了，沒有好或壞，只要是一個正確的投資管道，訊息明確揭露，讓投資人知道它是一個投資而非投機，都好；但是不是也因為過去整體銀行的利率過低，以至於大家突然間覺得如果真的有所謂年化利率10%，就真的要趕快來解定存，或者是趕快用房貸多押一點資金出來做投資，這個是不是央行必須要去思考的問題呢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想我們在做利率政策的時候，當然會考慮到國內當前的流動性問題。剛才我的資料已經顯示，我們從銀行的角度去觀察，或者是我們自己觀察到的，其實流動性的問題沒有想像中的那麼的嚴重，譬如說我們的M2已經開始下降滿多了……"],["林委員楚茵：好，感覺上副總裁並沒有真的回覆我的問題，不過沒有關係，會後我請召委再幫我來追一下。因為外委員會委員的發言時間有限，我想請教主委，剛剛有滿多立法院的同仁都已經問了，其實我比較在乎的就是您在第11頁也明確寫到，很多委員也都問到的，即：財經網紅透過付費方式進行置入的問題，你提到113年就是今年6月底前會完成所謂的自律規範，此係交由公會來訂定，請問公會在訂定這樣的規範時，是他們自家人關起門來訂定，還是會有專業的人士參與？我舉一個例子，您先聽聽看，再來回應我。","現在很多網紅的行銷方式大略有兩種，一種是知識型的網紅會幫你來做研析、解析，他會提到各種不一樣的金融商品是如何的狀況，如何的投資；另外一種不是知識型的網紅，他就是一個網紅，可能講生活，講娛樂，講旅遊，突然間會有個插播的廣告進來，然後他告訴你：現在有這樣的商品要開賣，你用我底下的連結可以省手續費或是有什麼減免、什麼優惠。我現在對這兩者做這樣的形容，主委覺得哪一個妥當，哪一個不妥當？他們都叫作網紅，都是經濟網紅，可能都是做網紅行銷，可是樣態卻不一樣。你理解我的意思嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我了解，我們在做規範的時候會很細緻，不可以一竿子把所有的都歸為一類，這個我們會注意，也會請教了解網紅生態的專家一起去討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席期待在這樣的一個規範出來之前，我們不要一竿子打翻全船人；但是在樣態的細緻面上，就必須有所區分，因為本席非常在乎的就是網路的行銷面，過去我們都知道電視台連一個個股去講解，或是任何一支商品去講解，都要罰大錢，現在因為網路本身的法規不足，我們要如何來杜絕？再來我也期許金管會要利用這個機會大家既然有興趣要發動全民的金融科普，就從金管會這邊釋出正確的管道，包括相關的金融研訓院等等，我們旗下可以用的管道，都來好好的把正確的金融知識傳達出去。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們照委員期待去處理、去努力。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。接下來請牛煦庭牛委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.29971875,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.30721875,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.395343750000002,"end":41.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.627843750000004,"end":49.424093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.672843750000006,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.807218750000004,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.02221875,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.68409375,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.70784375000001,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.07471875,"end":78.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.69471875,"end":75.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":77.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.90034375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.53159375,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.02159375000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.10409375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.56659375,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.19659375,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":194.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.75159375,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.09721875000002,"end":198.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.30784375000002,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.88971875000001,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.41659375,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.75721875000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.02534375000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.28659375,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":261.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.15034375,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.33096875,"end":271.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.07284375,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.56596875,"end":279.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.45971875000004,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.97846875,"end":367.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.26034375,"end":369.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.35284375000003,"end":371.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.22596875000005,"end":372.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.10346875000005,"end":389.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.50596875,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.34471875,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.44096875,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.15284375000005,"end":445.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.37909375000004,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.33221875000004,"end":449.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.00721875000005,"end":449.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.19284375,"end":449.41221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.273,"end":10.174,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請黃天牧黃主委還有我們央行的閻副總裁有請黃主委跟閻副總裁"},{"start":12.341,"end":40.643,"text":"委員好好久不見主委好副總裁好很感謝這個昭偉是有非常先見之明安排了今天這樣的一個題目我想最近在關鍵字當中真的確實我身邊很多過去不在乎金融理財的朋友都會在群組裡面討論那就是所謂這個高配息的ETF到底應該買所以我相信以這兩黨來說的話不知道金管會這裡"},{"start":41.804,"end":65.997,"text":"了不了解這兩檔就是所謂的高配息的ETF他們在近期當中大概募集了多少的資金我是不是同仁能夠有知道來報告一下那個統一那檔好像5、600億吧大概是一個是5、600億那另外一檔呢5、3、1那那個這一檔我不曉得9、40多少應該有超過1000多億對1000、2000"},{"start":70.421,"end":76.384,"text":"同言講好還沒有統計是不是數字還沒有出來因為他們是目擊到15號嘛 對不對還是我們的這個證交所有答案大概是1700億左右1700然後再加500這樣至少有2000多億現在會進入我們的國內的市場當中各位我們過去其實不只一次在聊這個話題就是說臺灣的這個投資性的商品"},{"start":96.371,"end":102.279,"text":"其實不夠多尤其是投資國內把錢留在國內很多時候我們賺進來的錢可能都是買國外開發的這樣的一個商品如果是這樣的話就整體來說就金管會的立場覺得這是一個好的現象嗎"},{"start":114.236,"end":134.294,"text":"我覺得只要這個商品充分告知客戶這個資訊也了解客戶的屬性我覺得這就是我覺得這沒有什麼特別要去所謂大家關心會打壓的問題不會好 謝謝主委我要請嚴副總裁的就是說剛剛有講到大概一個是500多億一個是大概有1700億所以至少會有2200億"},{"start":136.636,"end":150.601,"text":"的資金進入臺灣的市場那麼過去其實我們都一直擔憂就是國內投資性的商品不夠以至於就會來做房市那麼今天我們的題目也就講過了希望他們避免炒房那麼問題是很多人在質疑為什麼會突然間兩黨號稱高息的ETF進入市場之後大家好像錢都掏出來了"},{"start":164.085,"end":180.612,"text":"是不是過去因為利息過低的關係以至於大家甚至於有出現有人解定存又或者是去用房子去借貸然後換取更多的這個可運用的資金來賺這個利息之間的差價那麼央行有這樣的疑慮嗎或央行聽到這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":188.551,"end":212.014,"text":"報告委員因為您提的這個臺灣資金的這種長期的剩餘問題其實也跟我們過去以來的超額儲蓄或者是經常算順差有很大的關係在面臨這種情況之下其實我們一直在鼓勵我們賺到那麼多錢要充分的對外投資對內投資這是我們過去堅持的一個看法好"},{"start":212.776,"end":231.558,"text":"副總裁我的言下之意就是說這2200億至少進入了我們的市場之後當然剛剛主委所說的是沒有好或壞只要是一個正確的投資管道訊息明確揭露讓投資人知道他是一個投資不是一個投機都好"},{"start":232.119,"end":252.05,"text":"但是他是不是也面對了我們所謂因為過去的整體銀行的利率過低以至於大家突然間覺得哇如果真的有所謂年化利率10%哇那這樣子真的要趕快來解定存或者是趕快用房貸多押一點出來做投資這個是不是央行必須要去思考的問題呢"},{"start":254.332,"end":278.9,"text":"我想我們在做利率政策的時候我們當然會考慮到當前的那個國內的流動性的問題剛才我的資料已經顯示就是說我們從銀行的角度去看到流動性其實銀行我們對銀行的觀察或者是我們自己觀察到的流動性其實是沒有想像中的那麼的嚴重譬如說我們的M2已經開始下降蠻多了"},{"start":281.135,"end":297.082,"text":"我感覺上這個總裁並沒有真的回復我的問題不過沒有關係也許會後我請這個昭緯再幫我來追一下但是我想要因為現在變成外委員會時間有限要請主委主委剛剛其實蠻多前面的這些立法院同仁都已經問了"},{"start":298.843,"end":319.534,"text":"其實我比較在乎的就是您在第11頁也明確的寫到很多的委員都問到了就是有關於財經網紅透過付費方式來進行置入而你也提到了11月3號113年是今年的6月底前會完成這個所謂的自律規範是交由工會來做"},{"start":320.635,"end":347.141,"text":"那麼公會在訂定這樣的規範的時候是他們自家人自己關起門來訂定嗎還是會有專業的人士我舉一個例子您先聽聽看再來回應我現在很多網紅的行銷方式其實大略有兩種一種是他是知識型的網紅他幫你來做研析解析他會提到各種不一樣的金融商品如何的狀況如何的投資另外一種"},{"start":347.881,"end":352.823,"text":"他不是知識型的網紅他就是一個網紅他可能講生活講娛樂講旅遊但是他突然間會有個插播的廣告進來然後他告訴你說有現在這樣的商品要開賣你用我底下的連結可以省手續費或是可以有什麼揭滅有什麼優惠嘛那這兩者之間我現在做這樣的形容主委你覺得哪一個妥當哪一個不妥"},{"start":376.314,"end":396.351,"text":"但是這個樣態都是叫做知識型都是叫做網紅都是經濟網紅喔它也可能都是網紅行銷喔可是樣態就不一樣了喔您理解我的意思嗎我了解我們在做規範的時候又會很細緻不可以一竿子把所有的都過為一類特別也會請教了解網紅生態的專家一起去討論"},{"start":400.475,"end":418.623,"text":"好 那麼我會期待說在這樣的一個規範出來之前我們不要一竿子打翻全傳人但是呢必須在這個樣態的細緻上面要有所區分因為本期過去非常在乎的就是有關於這個網路的行銷面過去我們都知道電視台是連一個個股去講解"},{"start":419.423,"end":434.336,"text":"或是任何一支商品去講解那都要罰大錢的但是因為網路本身因為法規不足的關係那麼如何杜絕然後再來我也期許金管會要利用這個機會大家既然有興趣要發動全民的金融科普"},{"start":435.418,"end":447.399,"text":"從金管會這邊釋出正確的管道包括相關的金融研訓院等等我們可以的旗下的管道都好好的來把正確的金融知識傳達出去好嗎我們在委員期待去努力謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a3eee19154c5e4f043919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6a455ccc2586ab6995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:23:20 - 12:30:10","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":410,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:30:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:23:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1058,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時23分）謝謝主席，我請法務部長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：麻煩請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在接近520，剛才大家討論這麼多有關於司法的問題，包含偵查不公開，包含檢察官有沒有隨便的發傳票或約談等等。我記得蔡總統上任的時候得到最大掌聲就是當時他說要司法改革，那個時候他的這一部分滿意度最高。可是到現在為止，司法改革完全落空，到了週年的時候應該又會有一些重要的民調出來。現在很多民調都顯示，民眾對於司法改革的不滿意度，很多都超過50%，就是我們剛才講了這麼多的這些問題，我們的主席、我們的召委當過檢察官，他講他的經歷。想想看，我們可能對政治人物，我也常常被告，我們政治人物心臟比較大顆，反正是一個公眾人物，對於很多一般的小市民來說，不要說上法庭，檢察官約談他一次都是何等重大的事情，所以我要呼應剛才賴委員士葆所提的，你不要以為這些理想，事實上當他們被檢察官約談的時候真的都感覺手軟，然後他們的家人到處打電話去打聽。說怎麼回事、怎麼辦，人會不會回來？今天我們如果動輒以一些帶風向也好，或者真的是在選舉期間就大動干戈的去做這些調查，我覺得這都是嚴重的傷害司法形象。","接下來我要講一個案例，最近也有一些新聞報導，我們都很痛恨詐騙集團，但是我們也知道很多詐騙集團資金雄厚，所以它有很多律師當它的狗頭軍師。現在有一個案子就是這些律師，就是當這些集團軍師的律師分別都被收押，因為他們認為在集團內，他們的組織分工都很細膩，而且他們還指導車手怎麼樣面對檢警的偵查，因為他們很熟，然後還用Telegram，因為他們知道這個比較不容易被偵查到，他派出去這些律師幫車手做辯護，然後再把這些訊息傳回給詐騙集團，讓詐騙集團知道怎麼樣躲過檢調的偵查，甚至直接先跑掉。你可以看一下，這個案例其中有一個叫做鄭鴻威律師，還有黃耕鴻律師。這兩個律師都是在詐騙集團當報馬仔，他們用一些他們熟悉的，或是他的學弟，這些什麼有會計師執照或者……當這個詐騙集團的帳房，還甚至幫他洗錢，用虛擬貨幣洗錢。另外一方面，他也找一些律師，去幫這些詐騙集團的車手辯護，然後他們就是一整個集團。","我特別提到，包含鄭鴻威律師，還有黃耕鴻律師，他們現在都被收押。另外，這些涉案律師，還包含了李明潔、楊雅涵、賴季倉。我現在要求的是，這些律師知法犯法。我們在打詐，我們一邊打詐，不管我們司法機關怎麼加強，怎麼樣修法，可是這些律師他也是很懂法的啊！他知道，還會去做所有的在司法這些規避的技巧。所以我在這邊具體地要求，我們必須要詳查還有沒有其他涉案律師，真的只有這幾位律師嗎？我現在風聞的不是只有這幾位律師喔！他們甚至也是集團型的。還有，他們還有沒有涉及其他的詐騙案？只有這個詐騙案嗎？因為他們的詐騙案事實上是來自好像不同縣市的，他們是跨縣市在做的，所以他們就是一個犯罪集團，這些律師就是犯罪集團。當然，他們這些律師一定要被撤照，大概律師公會要吊銷他的牌照，可是我覺得要加重他們的處分，因為他們知法犯法。","另外，我也在這邊直接的要求，應該比照imB的這個案子，把主謀的財產、相關的房子、土地、帳戶、現金，在偵查期間應該予以扣押，否則這些詐騙，因為它是跨好幾個詐騙集團，以後這些人會求訴無門。因為他現在面對的不是只有詐騙集團而已，他面對還是這些整個強大的律師團。所以部長，可不可以請法務部特別針對這個案子，因為這個涉案的不是一般的詐騙集團，而是一群律師。可不可以確切地，我剛剛講說繼續地追查，還有扣押他們的財產？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教，如果它是一個集團性的犯罪，我們一定會嚴辦。"],["王委員鴻薇：他們確實是集團性。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們還會再往下追下去。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["蔡部長清祥：尤其這律師是知法犯法，更應該要嚴懲。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯啊！律師應該是協助我們來打詐，他現在不是啊！協助詐騙集團反打詐，我們現在詐騙集團才會這麼多，所以這個案子我覺得不容小覷。我要請法務部能夠特別去注重這個案件，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","我們接下來請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","徐巧芯委員、徐巧芯委員、徐巧芯委員。"],["主席：以上其他委員都沒有到場。我們今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢。","委員質詢的時候，如果有要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。謝謝各位。","散會（12時31分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.20159375,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.614093750000002,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.10346875,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.15409375,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.32284375,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.252843750000004,"end":46.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.60596875,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.94284375,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.305343750000006,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.16971875,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.83846875,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.70721875000001,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.90909375000001,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.51221875,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.48659375000001,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.88659375,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.83784375000002,"end":136.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.80284375000002,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.67909375000002,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.92784375000002,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.69971875000002,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":163.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.14034375,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.47846875000002,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.90034375000002,"end":216.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.39784375000002,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.47659375,"end":246.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.60846875000001,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.14221875000004,"end":260.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.15471875000003,"end":265.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.81221875,"end":267.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.03971875,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.83096875,"end":296.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.82846875,"end":302.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.15659375,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.36971875,"end":319.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.71096875,"end":325.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.17409375,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.79346875000005,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.29096875000005,"end":338.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.20596875,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.15346875,"end":359.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.70471875000004,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.66221875,"end":363.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.70409375,"end":371.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.08659375,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.65971875,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.22846875000005,"end":384.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.97409375,"end":396.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.76221875000005,"end":404.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.69346875,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.15721875,"end":408.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":409.28346875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.318,"end":16.299,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請法務部長好 麻煩請部長部長 現在接近520剛剛大家討論這麼多有關於司法的問題包含偵查不公開 包含檢察官有沒有隨便的去傳票或者是約談等等"},{"start":38.325,"end":56.29,"text":"我記得蔡總統她當時上任的時候她得到最大的掌聲就是當時她說要司法改革那個時候她的這一部分滿意度最高可是到現在為止司法改革完全落空"},{"start":57.25,"end":71.446,"text":"而根據我想到了這個週年的時候應該又會有一些重要的民調會出來現在很多的民調都顯示民眾對於司法改革的不滿意度很多都超過50%"},{"start":73.752,"end":99.444,"text":"就是我們剛才在講了這麼多的這些問題我覺得剛才我聽到我們主席我們的趙偉因為他自己當過檢察官他講他那個經歷想想看我們可能對政治人物我也常常被告我們政治人物心臟比較大顆然後反正就是你竟然從事你是一個公眾人物對於很多一般的小市民來說"},{"start":100.694,"end":122.962,"text":"他今天不要說他上法庭了他去那個檢察官約談他一次都是何等重大的事情這我剛剛就要呼應剛才那個賴世保委員所提的你不要以為這些里長這些里長事實上當他們被那個檢察官約談的時候真的都感覺手軟然後他們的家人就到處打電話去打聽說怎麼回事怎麼辦人會不會回來"},{"start":128.931,"end":144.523,"text":"所以今天我們如果動輒以一些帶風向也好或者真的是在選舉期間就大動干戈的去做這些調查我覺得這都是嚴重的傷害司法形象"},{"start":145.714,"end":162.308,"text":"接下來我要講一個案例喔就最近也有一些新聞報導我們都很痛恨詐騙集團但是呢我們也知道很多詐騙集團因為呢他資金雄厚所以呢他有很多的律師當他的狗頭軍師"},{"start":164.25,"end":179.476,"text":"所以現在呢有一個案子就是這些律師就是他們這些當這些他的集團軍師的律師分別都被收押因為他們認為在集團內他們的組織分工都很細膩而且他們還指導這個車手怎麼樣去面對這些檢警的偵查因為他們很熟然後呢還用telegram因為他知道這個比較不容易被偵查到"},{"start":192.722,"end":215.694,"text":"然後把這些因為他派出去這些律師幫車手去做辯護然後再把這些訊息傳回給這個這些詐騙集團讓詐騙集團知道怎麼樣去躲過檢調的這些偵查甚至直接先跑掉你可以看一下這個案例齁其中有一個"},{"start":217.435,"end":242.16,"text":"叫做鄭鴻薇律師還有黃耕宏律師這兩個律師都是在詐騙集團當報馬仔他們用一些他們熟悉的或是他的學弟這些什麼有會計師執照的當這個詐騙集團的帳房還甚至幫他洗錢用虛擬貨幣洗錢另外一方面呢他也找一些律師去幫這些詐騙集團的車手去"},{"start":246.641,"end":246.941,"text":"李明潔、楊雅涵、賴季昌"},{"start":265.899,"end":280.035,"text":"我現在要求的是這些律師知法犯法我們在打仗我們一邊打仗不管我們司法機關怎麼加強怎麼樣修法可是這些律師他也是很懂法的啊"},{"start":280.776,"end":280.876,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":303.223,"end":325.3,"text":"他們還沒有涉及其他的詐騙案只有這個詐騙案嗎因為他們的詐騙案事實上是來自好像不同縣市的他們是跨縣市在做的所以他們就是一個犯罪集團這些律師就是犯罪集團當然他們這些律師一定要被撤照律師公會一定要把他吊下牌照"},{"start":326.226,"end":348.834,"text":"可是我覺得要加重他們處分因為他們知法犯法另外我也在這邊直接的要求應該比照IMB的這個案子把主謀的財產相關的房子土地賬戶現金在偵查期間應該予以扣押否則這些詐騙因為他是跨好幾個詐騙集團以後這些人會求訴無門"},{"start":353.055,"end":376.916,"text":"因為他現在面對的不是只有詐騙集團而已他面對還是這些整個強大的律師團所以部長可不可以請法務部特別針對這個案子因為這個涉案的不是一般的詐騙集團而是一群律師可不可以確切的我剛講說繼續的追查還有扣押他們的財產"},{"start":378.237,"end":403.435,"text":"謝謝委員的指教如果它是一個集團性的犯罪我們一定會嚴辦他們確實集團性是 我們還會再往下追下去尤其這律師是知法犯法更應該要嚴懲沒有錯啊律師應該是協助我們來打詐他現在不是啊協助詐騙集團反打詐所以才我們現在詐騙集團才會這麼多所以這個案子我覺得不容小覷所以我要請法務部"},{"start":404.757,"end":404.897,"text":"王鴻薇"}]}},{"id":"150014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733afc18f29375038e9f87ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a639837670bf9e88175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:25:38 - 12:29:05","影片長度":"00:03:27","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":207,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:29:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:25:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":915,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時25分）謝謝主席，我請教一下教育部部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。我先謝謝各位委員對本席提案的支持。我要跟部長反映的事情就是臺東縣幅員遼闊，其實就整個產業來講是相對弱勢，亟需要中央更加關切以支持，部長，你同不同意這件事？"],["潘部長文忠：我同意，因為臺東的資源和財政比較不足，所以教育部過去也以這樣的方式多予協助。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。部長，本席再次強調，貧窮不是臺東的原罪，貧窮也不能限制孩童的未來跟發展，我要再請教育部針對本席這項提案給予協助，以及未來跟教育有關的資源都能挹注在臺東偏鄉，協助他們發展。"],["潘部長文忠：好。委員在地方服務，也很了解，尤其是學校設施改善上比較迫切的部分，過去我們也都有協助。如果委員有一些建議，再讓我們了解一下。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。在部長今天質詢之後，臺東縣所有教師、教職員工應該都很感謝啦！","同時，我想再幫教職員講一些話。關於最近發生的校園暴力事件，在討論學生人權的同時，其實也要考慮到學校管理這一塊，本席建議真的要合理授權，共同維護校園的安全。我們剛才提到學生進入校園之後所攜帶的違禁品會造成很大的隱憂，因為你根本不知道學生的書包裡放了什麼東西，所以也要請教育部研議儘量避免發生這樣的憾事。特別是剛才鍾佳濱委員提到的小學部分，學生中很多人不懂，會模仿、會學習，像我的小孩才7歲，帶著彈簧刀到學校玩，帶久了他可能覺得這樣的行為是合理的，但如果有一天變成真的刀，刺下去的時候大家都沒辦法負責任。所以我覺得教育部在這方面要研擬，未來在學校管理部分怎麼合理地授權給校方，讓他們維護校園的安全。"],["潘部長文忠：是。我向委員報告，從新北這次校安事件後，教育部確實跟地方政府、校長、教師、學生等相關團體做了很深入的討論，其中在老師輔導管教這方面也談到阻卻違法事件，就是讓老師面對這些事件在管教上不要受到處分，甚至影響考績，這是這次注意事項裡一項重要的修正重點。","另外，對於一些我們認為比較有傷害他人身體、生命之虞的特定對象，在整個安檢方面，我們也支持學校應該有更機動的機制，另外當然就是串接到學校以外的其他資源。這些做法都是希望確實支持學校的教育人員，在面對這些校安狀態時能有更好的支持。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，我也相信部長在會後應該會研擬出一套更適合未來的管理方法，不管對於學生或老師，都能確保校園安全提升。再次謝謝部長允諾未來會投入更多資源給臺東。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝臺東來的建賓委員，他大概是我們今天最有禮貌的對不對？跟你謝了好多次，謝謝部長。","接下來林德福委員，林德福委員，林德福委員。","林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.67096875,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.16284375,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.88909375,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.49159375,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.07721875,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.78596875,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.338468750000004,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.35534375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.56784375000001,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.51221875,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.41471875,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.72471875000001,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.39846875,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.41534375,"end":207.49221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":23.616,"text":"我要跟部長反映這件事情就是謝台東縣福源遼闊其實在整個產業來講是相對的弱勢那極需要中央的更關切的來支持他部長你同意這件事情我想我同意因為台東的資源還有財政是比較不足所以在教育部過去也會以這樣的方式多以協助"},{"start":24.216,"end":42.171,"text":"謝謝部長 部長本席再次強調就是貧窮不是台東的原罪貧窮也不能限制孩童他的未來跟發展這邊我要再請教育部就針對本席提的這個案子能夠來協助以及未來台東的跟教育有關的資源等等來益助在台東偏鄉這邊來協助他們發展"},{"start":43.882,"end":43.922,"text":"主席"},{"start":57.366,"end":78.897,"text":"部長今天質詢之後臺東縣的所有的教師、教職員應該都很感謝那同時我想要再幫教職員講一些話就是我們最近發生的校園暴力的事件我覺得其實在討論到學生人權的同時其實我們也要去考慮到學校管理這一塊本期建議真的要合理的授權來共同維護校園的安全"},{"start":80.077,"end":105.776,"text":"我們剛才提到就是學生進入校園之後他所帶的違禁品這件事情是會造成很大的隱憂因為你根本不知道學生的書包裡放著什麼東西所以這邊也要請教育部這邊來研議那盡量避免發生這樣的憾事特別是剛才我們中央評委員提到的小學的部分學生很多他不懂他會去模仿會學習像小朋友帶著像我的小孩才7歲他帶著堂皇導學校玩"},{"start":106.696,"end":122.153,"text":"待久待久他可能覺得這樣的行為是合理的但有一天如果他變成真的刀的時候在簽下去的時候大家都沒辦法負責任所以這方面我覺得教育部這邊來研擬說未來在學校的管理部分我們怎麼合理的授權給校方讓他們來維護校園的這個安全"},{"start":123.935,"end":141.267,"text":"我跟委員報告這次確實從新北的這個校園事件後教育部跟地方政府還有我們相關的這些校長、教師、學生團體做了很深入的討論當中跟老師的這個輔導管教的這方面也在這一次裡面有一個阻卻這個違法事件"},{"start":143.809,"end":166.435,"text":"就讓老師在面對這些做管教上面能夠不要去接受到處分甚至影響到考機這是這一次注意事項裡面一個重要的修正重點那另外像有一些我們說比較有傷害他人生命的這些特定對象在整個安檢的這方面也支持學校應該要有一個更機動的這樣的一個機制"},{"start":169.636,"end":169.776,"text":"主席"},{"start":186.778,"end":204.98,"text":"謝謝部長相信部長在這個會後應該會研究出一個更適合未來我們在管理上的方法那確保不管是學生或是老師在校園安全上能夠來提升那再次的也再次謝謝部長的允諾那謝謝對台東未來的資源能夠更加的投入那謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a453d7eaa28d8495425cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6723eb8c8d87031475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"12:13:33 - 12:26:03","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":750,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:26:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1321,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（12時13分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我們衛生福利部存在的目的是什麼？我看到衛福部的網站首頁寫著：促進全民健康與福祉，最值得民眾信賴的部會。不錯喔！第一個目標是健全福利服務體系，優先照顧弱勢族群。這是你們的第一個目標，結果沒做到，部長，你有什麼看法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然是我們的目標，但是我們需要整個體系動起來，才能夠逐步達到這樣的目標。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我就直接問這個出養家庭、這個弱勢、脆弱、「糜糜卯卯」的家庭。我認為原生家庭最重要，像剴剴這個案子，我看到那份報告簡直是胡說八道！第一個，原本是由他的外祖母照顧，但報告說外祖母無法繼續照顧是因為經濟的問題。至於第二個出養的保母，你們說是她的資格不符，才會換成第三個保母，但這位是有多厲害，最後把他給虐死。第一個家庭是最疼惜他的阿嬤，因為最關心這個小孩的一定是他的家人嘛！如果是經濟上有問題，你們給予support就好，為什麼要這樣轉來轉去，難道是有抽成可以抽，還是有績效、有獎金，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在我們這次的檢討報告中就有提到，未來這個事情就不是由媒合機構決定要不要出養，如果是因為經濟的問題，地方政府就必須提供協助，解決他的經濟問題，基本上就不需要出養。"],["蘇委員清泉：出養是下下策，大家的觀念要改一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個，還說這個小孩子1歲會罵髒話，胡說八道！我自己生了4個孩子，男孩子學講話很慢，現在我也有了3個孫子，孫女差不多1歲多、2歲就很會講話，但孫子到了3歲都還不太會說話，什麼1歲的孩子會罵髒話，這個社工有問題、這個出養家庭更有問題。大家用膝蓋想都知道，這根本是亂搞一場嘛！這個小孩子又是在新北市與臺北市這種資源相對豐富的地方，如果是在我們屏東，不就要撞牆、要吃土了。所以你們講的這個實在是讓我們聽不下去啊！部長，要好好檢討！真的是要虛心、深入的檢討，這件事真的是讓人刻骨銘心。","再者，兒福聯盟在孩子死後也沒為他做任何事，居然連棺木、葬儀都要靠葬儀社免費為他圓滿。部長，你們衛福部都沒事情，全都推給縣市長、縣市政府。到底是有幾個機構在幫你們接業務？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有8個得到我們審查許可的媒合機構。"],["蘇委員清泉：這些媒合機構、聯盟、NGO，我認為還是需要評鑑，就像醫院評鑑，你們要把它們掌控得好一點。譬如一個基金會，對他們的董事會、行政團隊都要嚴格的監督、評鑑、把關、考核，不然這個是笑死人！真的是笑死人！"],["薛部長瑞元：在這次的檢討報告中我有特別提出，對於這些媒合機構還是必須修正許可辦法中加強監督。"],["蘇委員清泉：接下來，像在我們屏東鄉下或原鄉是村長和里長最強，你們一定要善用村長、里長及鄰長，哪一個家庭有問題、哪一個家庭的小孩有遲緩的狀況，你們問誰最準確？問村長、問鄰長，哪一家是什麼狀況全都清清楚楚，是否有虐待的事情，只要問鄰長就會知道了，所以你們要善用這一塊。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個真的是非常重要，所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們不要只是出錢給縣市，縣市卻做得「離離落落」，交給聯盟、交給NGO之後，他們就換來換去，連出養認定都沒有。","再來一個問題，我們職災有職災的地圖，保母的部分是否有設保母的地圖？"],["簡署長慧娟：我們是有一個平台。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們可以來做。"],["蘇委員清泉：哪裡有出問題都可以show出來，這樣就一目瞭然嘛！比照勞動部的職災地圖，把它show出來，因為現在小孩子……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們可以研究，但是它比較容易涉及隱私的問題，重點在於如何取得平衡。"],["蘇委員清泉：公部門應該沒有這個問題，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：保母是個人、是個資啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：出了問題就甩鍋給社工，社工有夠衰耶！薪水這麼低，還什麼事都丟給他，我真的很為社工感到不捨！"],["薛部長瑞元：出事的保母也有應負的責任。"],["蘇委員清泉：大家看到這個案件後都感到很不捨，把一個孩子綁起來讓他整晚站著睡，指甲被拔光光，頭上有被菸燙的痕跡，生殖器被燒得烏黑，腿骨還被打斷，大腦也稍微出血，世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎？而且還發生在雙北這種地方？我們這些大人真的是要好好檢討，太糟糕、太糟糕了！","再來我要問兒科專責醫師的部分，剛剛陳菁徽也問過了，兒科專責醫師在這個案子裡完全沒有角色、完全漏接、完全沒有！找兒科專責醫師要上網填資料、要什麼什麼，我向大家報告，能夠去找到這些資源，還能把資料填得這麼好，那樣的家庭也不需要你們了啦！有問題的絕對是那些很脆弱的單親家庭，所以兒科醫師要如何加強角色？再來是要如何讓他們連結？是不是每一個都要有兒科醫師評估表、專責醫師評估表？這個真的是有效的，因為兒科醫師的眼睛很銳利，把孩子的衣服脫下檢查，只要他們的敏感度高一點，馬上就可以通報。部長，關於兒科醫師的角色，請再說一次！"],["薛部長瑞元：好，幼兒專責醫師有2個收小孩子的機制，第一個是自行收案，在去年11月之前，3歲以下的小孩子來看診時，你就要向家屬告知有這樣的計畫，並詢問是否願意加入，如果願意的話，幾個要填的資料就由醫師來填，這樣就等於收案了。在去年11月之後是新生兒通通要收案，這個部分就由接生的婦產科醫師詢問家屬願意指定的幼兒專責醫師是誰，並幫忙填寫資料，這是自行收案的部分。","第二個是指定收案，針對這次這種脆弱家庭或在收出養過程中臨時安置的，這個就一定要收，所以要由社會局把名單交給衛生局，衛生局就會去派案。事後我們就必須要去追蹤，如果在一定時間（目前的規定是6個月），譬如我剛剛提到的新生兒，在6個月之內還未指定的話，這個名單也會送到衛生局那邊，衛生局就會去詢問家屬並直接派案。","這些幼兒專責醫師有義務要定期對小孩子進行一些健檢，如果有一些兒虐的現象，或是通知要做健檢卻不出現，通知1次、2次都不出現就要回報社安網，讓社工可以再去追蹤，大概是這樣子。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們的理想很好，就是沒有落實！你們那個network好像很完善，可是也沒落實啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以這要再push。"],["蘇委員清泉：這裡漏、那裡漏，我是覺得非常可惜！現在幼兒專責醫師的認養也才達到百分之三十幾而已嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是四十幾。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個這麼好就應該要加強。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們會再努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：對於學齡前的小孩子要密切的追蹤。"],["薛部長瑞元：而且我們希望那些早療的個案能更早一點被發現。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們對於每一個小孩都不能放過、不能放棄任何一個小孩，現在都沒人要生，小孩子已經夠少了，你們還讓小孩的生命逝去，大家都要打屁股！部長，今天是因為你有道歉，不然人家要說你不適任了。看你今天這麼認真、這麼誠懇，所以我把提案都抽下來，不然你就要被譴責了，你知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：個人的去留是另外一回事。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！但是你要有擔當。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我就是負責把這個問題找出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們也是很挺你，所以你要再「拚」一點喔！以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。接下來請徐巧芯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.59534375,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":36.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.682218750000004,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.59284375,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.992843750000006,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.321593750000005,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.38034375,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.38846875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.12534375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.33596875,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.82409375,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.87346875,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.42596875000001,"end":95.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.59409375,"end":100.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.17971875,"end":104.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.36471875000001,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.88721875,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":140.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.48159375,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.16846875000002,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.39159375,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.28096875,"end":160.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.60971875,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.05221875,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.16971875000002,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.94096875000002,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.45096875000002,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.39534375000002,"end":185.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":189.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.76909375000002,"end":195.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.38846875000002,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.38784375,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.72096875000003,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.89346875,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.74971875,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.26409375,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.84159375000002,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.21159375000002,"end":221.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.75159375,"end":222.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.93284375000002,"end":224.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.24471875,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.67909375000002,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.93096875,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.26409375000003,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.64346875,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.66846875000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.76909375000002,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.42284375000003,"end":246.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.91221875000002,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.54471875000002,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.22346875000002,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.61846875000003,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.96409375,"end":269.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":271.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.24159375,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.81471875,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.01221875000005,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.73721875,"end":296.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.50784375,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.84534375000004,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.99659375000005,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":311.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.12159375000005,"end":311.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.03284375000004,"end":312.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.84284375000004,"end":312.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.85971875,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.20971875000004,"end":320.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.06096875000003,"end":323.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.52034375,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.47284375000004,"end":332.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.97471875,"end":333.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.85221875,"end":336.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.09221875000003,"end":344.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.80409375000005,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.14284375,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.39159375,"end":368.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.03659375,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.45409375,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.33971875000003,"end":376.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.69346875,"end":378.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.46534375000005,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.00096875,"end":381.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.96284375000005,"end":384.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.01721875000004,"end":386.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.48096875000005,"end":393.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.43784375,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.85096875000005,"end":406.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.33596875,"end":397.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.08971875000003,"end":410.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":412.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.69221875000005,"end":416.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.72534375000004,"end":417.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.92346875000004,"end":423.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.66096875000005,"end":429.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.06034375,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.07721875000004,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.61284375,"end":441.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.41346875000005,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.53034375000004,"end":452.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.55096875000004,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":456.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.73596875000004,"end":459.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.73971875,"end":462.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.09784375000004,"end":469.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.61159375000005,"end":470.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.05846875000003,"end":475.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.99034375,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.19596875,"end":491.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.95409375,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.10909375000006,"end":504.59346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.55534375,"end":510.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.53346875000005,"end":520.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.9240937500001,"end":524.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.77596875,"end":525.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.7040937500001,"end":526.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.34534375,"end":528.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.72471875,"end":528.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.14659375,"end":538.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.44471875,"end":540.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.3303437500001,"end":542.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.22034375,"end":545.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.59971875,"end":562.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.6940937500001,"end":569.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.4609687500001,"end":578.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.4890937499999,"end":584.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.83846875,"end":584.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.7665937500001,"end":587.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.12471875,"end":597.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.1653437500001,"end":618.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.3603437500001,"end":629.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.60346875,"end":643.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.4072187500001,"end":652.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.8234687500001,"end":667.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.4878437500001,"end":670.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.0947187500001,"end":674.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.84534375,"end":680.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.61659375,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.00034375,"end":683.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.9453437500001,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.7209687500001,"end":691.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.5515937499999,"end":693.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.2390937499999,"end":694.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.5047187499999,"end":703.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.2890937500001,"end":698.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.4440937500001,"end":705.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.96284375,"end":706.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.0303437500002,"end":709.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.4265937499999,"end":708.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.62471875,"end":712.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.2234687499999,"end":719.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.4597187500001,"end":712.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.1928437500001,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.9640937500001,"end":725.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.23409375,"end":733.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.25409375,"end":735.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.1228437500001,"end":738.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.6372187500001,"end":742.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.6072187500001,"end":743.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.5390937500001,"end":745.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.3997187500001,"end":745.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.6865937500002,"end":746.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.13784375,"end":750.4622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.549,"end":5.93,"text":"衛生福利部存在的目的是做什麼?"},{"start":23.188,"end":36.519,"text":"那我在衛福部的網站首頁就看到上面寫著我唸給大家聽促進全民健康與福祉最值得民眾信賴的部會然後第一個目標是健全福利服務體系"},{"start":50.019,"end":77.125,"text":"優先照顧弱勢族群這你們第一個目標,結果做不到了部長你有什麼看法?這當然是我們的目標但是就是說我們需要整個體系動起來才能夠逐步的達到我們這樣子的一個目標好,那我就直接問這個粗洋家庭這弱勢脆弱的迷茫的家庭"},{"start":79.147,"end":97.731,"text":"我想延伸家庭最重要啦像這個小孩子凱凱我看那個報告真的是福收八道第一個他那個外祖母阿嬤我阿嬤在照顧他要照顧他說他沒辦法照顧的原因是經濟上的問題"},{"start":101.169,"end":106.558,"text":"第二次出院的保姆,你們說他不夠刺激,這換第三次的,這是在外勞?"},{"start":110.029,"end":131.143,"text":"你現在第一家庭就是說祂阿嬤最好、最會照顧的會關心這個小孩一定是他的家人嘛那經濟上有問題就經濟好你就幫他支援就好那你待會就要改來改去難道這個轉來轉去是有抽成可以抽還是說有績效有獎金是不是"},{"start":132.305,"end":153.331,"text":"所以說我們這次的檢討報告裡面就未來這個事情的話就不是由這一個媒合機構去決定說要不要出亞因為這如果它是經濟的問題那就是必須地方政府能夠提供協助來解決它的經濟問題基本上就不需要出亞"},{"start":155.605,"end":163.27,"text":"出行是下下策,這個大家觀念要改一下,那第二個說這個小孩子一歲會罵髒話,胡說八道,我學生的孩子,我告訴你,女兒的孩子說話很慢,我現在還有兩個孫子,三個孫子,"},{"start":174.568,"end":177.129,"text":"社會福利部長、教育部長：蘇清泉社會福利部長、教育部長：蘇清泉"},{"start":196.445,"end":205.737,"text":"那這個這個這個小孩子又是在新北台北這個是資源相對豐富的地方所以這個這個你們在講這個"},{"start":212.884,"end":233.189,"text":"我們聽不下去啦,所以部長要好好檢討,真的是要虛心深入的,這刻苦民心啦,再來什麼,這個兒童聯盟,今天撬起來,還沒做什麼事情,既然連官務、葬儀都在撬,葬儀社人免費來挽回,"},{"start":238.643,"end":242.084,"text":"目前有8個是審查,每合機構有8個是我們得到許可的"},{"start":264.427,"end":285.36,"text":"這些各個媒合機構、聯盟、NGO我想還是要評鑑要向醫院評鑑、社會評鑑、保安我覺得譬如說一個基金會它的董事會當然董事會是一個然後再來是行政團隊"},{"start":286.801,"end":307.617,"text":"都要嚴格的來監督、評鑑、把關、考核不然的話這個是笑死人所以在這次檢討報告裡面我有特別提出來對於這一些媒合機構的話我們還是必須要在許可辦法裡面需要加強監督"},{"start":314.638,"end":329.187,"text":"像我們在屏東、在鄉下、在原鄉村長跟里長很恐怖村長跟里長還有林長你們一定要善用哪一個家庭有問題,像在鄉下哪一個家庭小孩子有磁環你問誰最準?問村長"},{"start":333.015,"end":349.682,"text":"阿你問領導 哇 都中情情色色 有內代的情勢嗎 那個人問領導就知道了所以你們要善用這一塊 所以這個真的是非常重要"},{"start":350.422,"end":372.015,"text":"所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善都要改善不要你只出錢給管事管事離落落現在去到那個聯盟去到NGO你再外來外去出洋什麼認定也沒有再來一個問題我們職災有職災的地圖我們這個保姆擁有社保姆地圖"},{"start":379.763,"end":406.317,"text":"這我們可以來做哪裡有出問題都秀出來這樣一目了然比照那個環境部那個職災職災或者勞動部的職災地圖把它秀出來因為現在這個這種小孩子這個我們可以來研究啦這個部分當然他會比較容易涉及到的是隱私的問題啦那這部分的話如何去取得那個平衡"},{"start":407.117,"end":428.722,"text":"公部門應該沒有這個問題啦,好不好?然後出了問題就甩鍋給社工,社工有夠衰捏,情緒這麼假,還跟人家說等兩回,我覺得很替社工不捨捏。出事的保姆也是本來就有應付的責任。"},{"start":433.623,"end":443.287,"text":"這個案件喔,大家看到大家都很不捨啦,什麼一個小孩被打了,被他騎在睡覺,整個眉毛,肩膀被扳了了,頭到那裡還有吃粉給他搓傷,吃粉捏,粉給他搓捏,他的生殖器被燒到黑綠綠捏,還有槓架卡在他臉上,鬧到他又有出血,世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎?"},{"start":460.233,"end":470.403,"text":"這個還在雙北這種地方我覺得我們真的是這些大人真的是好好的檢討了真的太糟糕太糟糕了那再來我就要問"},{"start":472.45,"end":496.613,"text":"額科專責醫師陳慶慧也問了額科專責醫師在這個案子裡面完全沒有角色完全漏接 完全沒有那我們額科專責醫師要去上網要添資料什麼什麼什麼我跟大家報告 要去找到這裡的資料還可以在資料上聽到這麼好那個家庭不用理了啦"},{"start":500.302,"end":519.657,"text":"會不會絕對是那些很脆弱的那些單親的那些那些家庭所以兒科醫師要怎麼加強角色再來要怎麼讓他們連結是不是每一個都要兒科醫師評估表專責醫師評估表這個真的是有效的因為兒科醫師也很快小孩子三個月長大看一看將來敏感度高一點馬上通報這個部長兒科醫師的角色再說一次"},{"start":529.573,"end":539.221,"text":"有這個幼兒專責醫師他有兩個對於小孩子來有兩個收小孩子的這個機制第一個叫做這個"},{"start":541.777,"end":568.88,"text":"自行收案自行收案的意思就是說在我們上去年11月以前的話那就是有小孩子3歲以下小孩子來看診的時候你就要跟家家屬提說有這樣的一個計畫那詢問說他是不是願意加入如果願意的話那幾個要填的這些這些東西的話就醫師來填然後他又等於收案了"},{"start":569.56,"end":597.057,"text":"那第二種情形在去年的11月以後的話是新生兒通通要收案那這部分的話就有接生的這一個婦產科醫師幫忙去問那家屬是不是能夠願意指定他想要的這個幼兒專責醫師是誰然後幫忙他去填寫這是自省收案的部分"},{"start":599.067,"end":618.408,"text":"指定收案指定收案就是我們這一次這一種錯過家庭臨時安置的收出養過程臨時安置這個就一定要收所以要由社會局把這個名單要交給衛生局衛生局的話就會去派案"},{"start":619.409,"end":644.02,"text":"那這些我們在事後的話我們必須要去追蹤如果在一定時間目前的話我們是6個月這前6個月比方說我剛剛提到的新生兒6個月之內他還沒有指定的話那這個名單也會到衛生局那邊去就由衛生局來詢問家屬直接他來拍案就這樣"},{"start":645.06,"end":670.315,"text":"那這些幼兒專責醫師他就有義務要定期對這個小孩子做一些健檢大概是這樣所以如果有一些餓餓的現象或者是說通知他來做健檢他不出現通知了一次兩次不出現的話那就回到要報給這個社安網讓社工可以再去追蹤大概是這樣子"},{"start":672.23,"end":692.645,"text":"裡面的理想很好,就是沒有落實啦。你的Network好像很完善,也不是沒有落實啦。所以這麼老那樣老,我就覺得非常可惜。又有專責醫師的任揚也才三十幾%而已嘛。目前四十幾啦。"},{"start":695.275,"end":708.089,"text":"這個這麼好的那就應該要加強學齡前的小孩子你要學齡這個小子怎麼沒有那個要密切的追蹤而且我們希望那些早聊的個案更早一點"},{"start":709.691,"end":717.521,"text":"我們每一個小孩我們都不能放過啦,不能放棄任何一個小孩,這沒人要生孩子,孩子有夠小啊,你小孩還要綁,還要撈他,大家都要打屁股的捏,部長你今天是有道歉的,怎麼沒人要跟你衝利不適呢,我看你今天這麼認真、這麼謙虛齁"},{"start":728.294,"end":728.594,"text":"蘇清泉委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a300db1aa2638c3cf1b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a65cb637de7fc32a3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:13:54 - 12:25:49","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":715,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:25:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1018,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時14分）主席，我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主委，我今天不跟你談ETF，這已經談很多，我下次再就教你。我要談一個我個人覺得是蠻嚴重的問題，金管會對於實際已經在經營融資的這三家租賃公司，我用八個字形容，就是「自廢武功、該管不管」，這就是金管會現在的情況。","根據銀行法第二十九條「非銀行不得執行銀行相關的業務」，你也很清楚金管會的組織法第二條、第三條，金管會就是掌管國內金控公司、銀行業、保險業、期貨、證券等等，對於這些行業的設立以及管理，都是在你們的職掌範圍內，你非常清楚，不是嗎？那麼這三家公司中租迪和、和潤、裕融，現在放款金額的來源還不是他們自有資金，而是大量從銀行業融資，他們跟38家銀行低利融資，再高利貸放款給需要的消費者，這筆金額多大啊！","黃主委，我私下跟金管會講過，光是中租迪和向銀行借的就高達2,396億元，天啊！然後和潤不遑多讓，大概它的一半，980億元；另外這家裕融，可能後台很硬，連金額都懶得申報！這也是我要求金管會要下去查察的。他們實質經營銀行最重要的融資項目，結果占盡全體國人辛苦存款的便宜，他們便宜行事，由銀行手中取得低利的融資，再去放高利貸，結果金管會放任這個事情不管。","六年前，中央銀行就有做出一些調查報告，也提供給金管會啊。2018年，六年前中央銀行調查的結果，全世界各國多數BNPL做租賃業的公司，都是由他們國家像金管會這樣的單位在管理，由公部門的金融管理機關管理。所以我不懂啊，我們金管會有那麼多專業的金融人士，有這麼多的專業人才，才能夠經常性的對這些實質在作金融放款業務的公司做查察，不是這樣嗎？金管會有全國最多這部分的專業人士，結果你們放任不管。","上次我質詢的時候，也虧另外一位召集人質詢後跟我說，這個部分經濟部管。我去查這是什麼經濟部管，經濟部管的是公司法，臺灣有100萬家公司，這三家金額這麼重大的公司，經濟部只能管百萬分之三，而且是用公司法，這在管什麼管？！現在金管會不管的做法，我認為就是推卸責任啦！避重就輕，把它推給經濟部。我們質詢經濟部，他也一問三不知啊！所以黃主委，我希望你今天就能正式答復我，到底你們管是不管啦？基於事權統一，基於金管會本來就應該納管國內做這樣銀行業務的公司，不是這樣嗎？黃主委，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，是不是可以給我一點時間跟你報告？"],["王委員世堅：您請說，您請說。"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一次拜會您，對您關於金融事務的了解非常尊敬，不過我以下回答如果有跟您的想法不一樣的地方，請您多包涵。"],["王委員世堅：您請說，您請說。"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一點，融資公司是不是專屬銀行業務，銀行法第二十九條其實重點是吸收存款，對不特定多數人吸收存款，那是專屬業務，放款不是銀行的專屬業務。"],["王委員世堅：這個就是漏洞，我們會另外提案來修法……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是民法規定的。"],["王委員世堅：但是，放款跟存款是一體兩面的業務，他們就是鑽這個漏洞，我認為這就是立法上這一個小疏忽讓大家有話講，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員……"],["王委員世堅：你請說。"],["黃主任委員天牧：經濟部的公司登記中，公司業務有這種融資行為的就有六千八百多家，這就是現況，所以現在就沒有說融資一定是專屬銀行業務。然後，您垂詢的問題這幾家所謂的大型的融資公司，我們管不管？我跟您報告，在2016、2017的時候，它的洗錢防制就已經由主管機關在管，融資性租賃公司是我們在管。","第二個，去年年初大家談BNPL的時候，我們就找最大的那家中租迪和來，我說你們一定要好好去做這件事情，我們根據銀行的授信規則，做了一個租賃的BNPL原則給他們，請他們在租賃公會通過，請各租賃公司去遵循。","第三個，最近網路上那個影片出來之後，我們約談了四家這種上市櫃的大型租賃公司，兩個禮拜前我們召開會議，由金管會提供一個專業的內控準則，要求這四家公司訂在自己的規定中怎麼樣去做，尤其是對年輕人的授信租賃業務，年底之前交易所、櫃買中心會去做內控查核。第二點……"],["王委員世堅：黃主委，剛才這一點，兩個字簡單講，你們就是要求他們這些租賃公司「自律」就對了！"],["黃主任委員天牧：內控不是自律喔！內控要……"],["王委員世堅：你們自己去訂一個怎麼內控、怎麼管理，這樣子！都已經成了這麼龐大的金融怪獸，你竟然只要求他自律？天啊！「他律」都律不住了，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，內控是年底前交易所要去查核的，不是自律；第二點，您關心租賃公司對年輕人的這種授信原則，我們會要求再訂一個完整的準則，在公會中要求他們去遵循。最重要的，您提到這些租賃公司的資金來源來自於金融機構、票券公司，銀行局也會去跟這些……"],["王委員世堅：這就是我覺得最莫名其妙的一點，他自家的錢拿去借還比較沒話講，如果把裕融加進去，我保守估計這三家將近有五千億來自我們存款大眾存在銀行的錢，被銀行大剌剌的用人情的方式低利借給這三家超大的金融怪獸──租賃公司，讓他們去放高利貸！如果這樣的放款是對的，那銀行來做就好了，消費性貸款銀行直接可以做啊！銀行等於變相圖利了這三家租賃怪獸。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我跟你報告……"],["王委員世堅：因為時間有限，我跟你講我認為最可怕的還有另外一個問題，就是「超額授信」四個字！你知道他們如何戕害我們現在這一代的青年人嗎？剛出社會的年輕人要買車或其他消費品，買一輛車80萬元，卻借給他100萬元──車子都不用自己出錢，還給你20萬的零用金，這些都有高額的利息跟超高額的違約金，還有父母親擔保，青年人還有30年的工作餘命，他們不怕討不回錢。這些公司因為不是銀行，就找討債公司來追討，目前社會的情況是這個樣子。我想以金管會這麼資深的金融專業來講，超額授信是所有銀行業、金融機構最忌諱的事情，結果我們現在卻眼睜睜的看這三家租賃怪獸每天在做超額授信的事情，在戕害剛出社會的青年朋友們。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，你語重心長的指示，我們都會去處理，尤其你講到對年輕人授信超額的部分，我們會去處理。"],["王委員世堅：他們用這個超額授信來誘惑年輕人……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員世堅：抱歉主席，我再30秒就好。所以，本席要求你們去查銀行是以什麼樣的名義貸款給這三家租賃公司，也就是銀行這五千億的貸款融資給這三家金融怪獸──租賃業，是用什麼樣的名義？這些放款融資中間有沒有不當的勾串？","謝謝主席。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會照委員的提示去處理，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：你們查了之後，要給我答復。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.072218750000001,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.90159375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.43721875,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.00221875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.309093750000002,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.59159375,"end":32.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.81909375,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.90721875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.59034375,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.68721875,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.830343750000004,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.85534375,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.150343750000005,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.369093750000005,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.51221875,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.485343750000006,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.72471875000001,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.21346875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.81221875,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.46096875,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.45659375000001,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.92846875000001,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.21096875,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":93.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.83909375,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.64471875000001,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.69096875000001,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.37409375,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.23846875000001,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.86659375,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.92534375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.82784375000001,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.53659375000001,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.59096875,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.03784375000001,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.21471875,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.39971875,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.64784375000002,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.14096875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.71034375000002,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.75221875,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.60409375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.82721875000001,"end":144.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.11784375000002,"end":147.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":149.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":156.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.42409375,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.44909375,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.20721875,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.99159375000002,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.57784375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.15534375000001,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.07034375,"end":182.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.52971875,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.97659375,"end":188.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.95909375000002,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.52721875,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.60221875000002,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.74534375000002,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.15784375,"end":217.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.88721875000002,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.34221875,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.36721875,"end":226.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.88159375,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.27784375000002,"end":231.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.80659375000002,"end":251.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.09284375000001,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.43846875000003,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.89784375,"end":259.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.86784375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.06159375000004,"end":271.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.88284375,"end":275.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.54909375,"end":278.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.38409375000003,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.42159375,"end":288.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.45846875,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.05284375,"end":292.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.38596875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.05221875,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.41471875,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.94159375000004,"end":303.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.89909375,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.36659375,"end":310.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.49284375,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.55471875,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.80721875,"end":326.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.15284375000005,"end":328.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.32971875000004,"end":331.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.59096875,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.97471875,"end":334.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.79721875,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.83909375,"end":338.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.02284375000005,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.46846875,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.94909375000003,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.65784375000004,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.75909375000003,"end":366.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":367.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.14221875000004,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":376.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.22096875,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.45659375,"end":382.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.55346875000004,"end":382.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.62096875000003,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.66721875,"end":392.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.11721875,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.80909375000005,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.67721875,"end":401.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.82471875000005,"end":406.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.83659375,"end":414.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.22346875000005,"end":427.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.30159375000005,"end":435.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.91221875,"end":439.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.04659375000006,"end":447.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.47159375,"end":450.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.66096875000005,"end":452.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.70284375000006,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.99784375,"end":466.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.01284375000006,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.19409375000004,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.11346875000004,"end":471.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.49721875000006,"end":473.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.59846875000005,"end":474.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.21846875000006,"end":474.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.40409375,"end":489.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.79096875000005,"end":486.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.21596875000006,"end":493.16909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.59096875000006,"end":498.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.22721875,"end":502.83846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.34096875000006,"end":500.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.83846875000006,"end":502.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.88909375000003,"end":502.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.97346875000005,"end":509.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.07471875000005,"end":504.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.10721875,"end":516.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.1147187500001,"end":518.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5828437499999,"end":520.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9453437500001,"end":521.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.0803437500001,"end":527.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.8640937499999,"end":531.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.01159375,"end":529.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.0365937500001,"end":534.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.3059687500001,"end":548.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.1940937500001,"end":560.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.65221875,"end":566.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.43596875,"end":584.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.1140937499999,"end":577.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.30659375,"end":591.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.9384687500001,"end":592.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.4740937500001,"end":596.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.7140937500001,"end":600.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.9665937500001,"end":605.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.4172187500001,"end":613.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.96034375,"end":622.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.6003437500001,"end":624.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.36784375,"end":625.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.2790937500001,"end":627.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.9328437500001,"end":633.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.3959687500001,"end":639.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.52596875,"end":641.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.9053437499999,"end":644.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.79096875,"end":645.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.60096875,"end":647.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.42346875,"end":659.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.1809687500001,"end":667.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.2178437500002,"end":676.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.0147187500002,"end":671.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.85346875,"end":677.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.33846875,"end":679.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.07659375,"end":682.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.70909375,"end":685.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.3372187500001,"end":691.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.48409375,"end":695.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.4622187500001,"end":701.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.3684687500001,"end":704.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.95471875,"end":709.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.02596875,"end":709.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.9453437500001,"end":710.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.26596875,"end":714.6028437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.07,"end":26.041,"text":"主席有請金管會黃主委有請黃主委黃主委我今天不跟你談ETF這已經談了很多我下次再救教你我談另外一個我個人覺得是蠻嚴重的問題就是說我們金管會對實際已經在經營融資的這三家註定公司"},{"start":35.953,"end":61.179,"text":"我用八個字形容就是自廢武功該管不管這就是金管會現在的情況如果根據銀行法第29條非銀行不得執行銀行相關的這些業務那你也很清楚你們金管會的組織法第二條第三條"},{"start":62.543,"end":90.693,"text":"金管會就是掌管我們國內金融公司銀行業、保險業期貨證券等等那你們對於這些行業他們的設立以及管理這都是在你們執掌的範圍內你非常清楚嘛不是嗎那麼這三家中租抵合合論跟育融"},{"start":91.894,"end":118.987,"text":"他們現在放款的金額來源還不是他們自有資金他們還是大量的從我們的銀行業來融資他們跟38家銀行融資低利那麼高利貸放款給需要的消費者那這金額多大"},{"start":120.253,"end":148.948,"text":"那個黃主任我私下跟金管會講過啊光是中租敵核向銀行借的就高達2396億天啊然後核潤不遑多讓啦大概他一半980億另外這一家裕融他可能後台很硬嘛"},{"start":150.421,"end":173.687,"text":"他連金額都懶得申報啦這也是我要求金管委員你們要下去查查的他們實質經營銀行當中最重要的融資的項目結果他佔盡我們全體我們國人辛苦的存款他們佔盡這些便宜"},{"start":176.271,"end":204.528,"text":"他們便於形式由銀行的手中取得低利的融資再去放高利貸結果金管會放任這個事情不管6年前中央銀行他們就有做出一些調查一些報告也提供給我們金管會啊2018年6年前中央銀行調查的結果"},{"start":205.649,"end":233.848,"text":"全世界各國多數這樣子做BMPL做這樣租賃的行業公司都是由他們國家之內像我們金管會這樣子的單位他們在管理由公部門的金融管理機關在管理所以我不懂啊我們金管會有那麼多專業的金融人士"},{"start":235.39,"end":259.057,"text":"我們有專業的這麼多的人才我們才能夠經常性的去對這些實質在金融放款業務的這些公司去做查查不是這樣嗎金管會是全國最多這一部分的專業人士結果你們放任不管"},{"start":260.942,"end":279.012,"text":"上次我質詢的時候也虧我們另外一位召集人還跟我說質詢完以後他跟我說這個部分經濟不管我去查一下這是什麼經濟不管經濟不管的是公司法我們臺灣有100萬公司100萬家公司"},{"start":281.685,"end":306.979,"text":"這三家這麼重大金額的經濟部問他只能管百萬分之三而且是公司法那在管什麼管所以儘管會現在這個不管的做法我認為就推卸責任了避重就輕把他推給經濟部經濟部我們實質去問他也一問三不知啊所以那個黃主委"},{"start":311.533,"end":334.074,"text":"我希望你今天就能夠正式答覆我到底你們管是不管啦基於事權統一基於金管會應該對我們國內做這樣子銀行業務的公司本來就應該要納管不是這樣嗎黃主委你的看法呢"},{"start":335.064,"end":358.347,"text":"委員是不是可以給我一點時間回覆您報告第一點我想第一次拜會您對金融事務的瞭解是非常尊敬我以下回答如果有跟您的想法不一樣的地方請您多包涵第一點這個人資公司是不是專屬銀行業務其實銀行法29條其實重點是吸收存款對不特定多數人吸收存款那是專屬業務"},{"start":359.648,"end":381.507,"text":"放款不是銀行的專屬業務這個就是漏洞這個我們會另外提案改修法但是但是放款跟存款是一體兩面的業務啊他們就是鑽這個漏洞我認為這就是立法上這一個疏忽那讓大家有話講不是這樣嗎你請說"},{"start":384.129,"end":389.472,"text":"經濟部公司登記中有這種公司業務有這種融資行為的有6800多家"},{"start":393.171,"end":414.506,"text":"那這就是現在的現況就現在就沒有說融資一定是專屬銀行業務然後跟你回答您垂詢的這幾家所謂的大型的融資公司我們管不管我跟您報告在2016、2017的時候它的洗錢房子就已經由主管機關在管融資性住院公司是我們在管"},{"start":415.327,"end":427.322,"text":"第二 去年年初大家談BNPL的時候我們就找最大的那家中租公中租集合來我說你們做這件事情一定要好好去做我們把銀行做"},{"start":428.362,"end":449.184,"text":"做這種授信的規則用了一個租賃做BNPL的原則給他請你在租賃公會通過請各租賃公司去遵循這是第二件事第三點最近網路上那個影片出來之後我們約談了四家上市櫃公司的這種大型租賃公司兩禮拜前我們開了一個會議"},{"start":450.726,"end":471.339,"text":"要求因為都是上市櫃要求交易所櫃買中心訂一個內控準則由金管會提供一個專業的內控準則要求這4家公司訂在自己的規定中怎麼樣去做這種尤其對年輕人的壽性租賃業務年底之前交易所櫃買中心去做內控查核第二點"},{"start":472.523,"end":472.843,"text":"黃主任委員"},{"start":490.271,"end":509.286,"text":"到了已經到金融怪獸這麼龐大的金融怪獸你竟然只要求他自律天啊他律都律不住了不是嗎報告委員那個內控是要年底前交易所要去查核的不是指自律第二點"},{"start":511.158,"end":534.498,"text":"我們會要求再訂一個完整的租賃公司做這種您關心對這種年輕人的這種授信的原則要求在公會中要求他們去遵循最重要您提到這些租賃公司的資金來源來自於金融機構票券公司銀行局也會去跟這些這就是我覺得最莫名其妙的他自家的錢去借"},{"start":535.427,"end":563.747,"text":"那還比較沒話講如果他是大量的如果把裕榮加進去我保守估計這三家等於五千億啦來自我們存款大眾存到銀行的錢被銀行大剌剌的用人情的方式低利借給這三家超大的金融怪獸租賃公司讓他們去放高利貸如果這樣子的放款是對的的話"},{"start":564.708,"end":592.148,"text":"那你銀行來做就好啊消費性貸款銀行直接可以做嘛銀行等於變相圖利了這三家租賃貫受報告委員我跟您報告因為時間有限我跟你講我認為的最可怕還有另外一個問題就是四個字超額授信啊你知道他們如何強害我們現在這一代的青年人嗎他們利用他們剛出社會那"},{"start":593.627,"end":613.09,"text":"要買車啦買其他消費品買一部80萬的車借他100萬你車子都不用自己出錢還20萬給你零用金結果這些是高額的利息跟超高額的違約金還有父母金擔保啊"},{"start":614.031,"end":638.39,"text":"青年人還有30年的工作餘命啊他們也不怕討不到那這些公司他們因為他假借他因為他不是銀行嘛所以他就找這個討債公司來討現在目前社會的情況是這個樣子所以超額授信這個我想您與金管會你這麼資深的金融專業來講"},{"start":639.744,"end":658.837,"text":"超額授信是所有銀行業金融機構最忌諱的事情結果現在我們眼睜睜的看這三家租賃怪獸他們每天在做超額授信的事情在搶賴我們社會的青年朋友們"},{"start":660.202,"end":675.704,"text":"法委員您宇宙新常的指示我們都會去處理尤其您講到對於年輕人的獸性超額部分我們會去處理我跟您報告他們用這個超額獸性來誘惑年輕人嘛是 我想委員會主席啊 抱歉主席我再30秒就好所以喔 我要求你這樣啦"},{"start":677.066,"end":701.016,"text":"請去查我們銀行是以什麼樣的名義貸款給這三家租賃公司這五千億的貸款銀行的融資融資給這三家金融怪獸租賃業是什麼樣的名義查這些放款融資有沒有中間不當的"},{"start":702.381,"end":702.981,"text":"接著我們請林楚雲委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733af0665f1e684d7efe87ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a66124dbb45654082e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:18:46 - 12:25:02","影片長度":"00:06:16","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":376,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:25:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:18:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時18分）主席、在場的委員、先進、列席政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員午安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。部長，我們今天都在關心校園內的暴力，那你認為在現在少子化下，青少年的犯罪率是降低還是提高？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果就通報的相關數據來看，通報數量確實有增加的趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有增加？人變少了，但是犯罪率……"],["潘部長文忠：但就確認的部分，我們發現還要經過一些審酌。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於所謂的「校園安全亮起紅燈」、大家都認為現在暴力事件是對學生最大的侵害，你認為呢？暴力事件是目前學生犯罪最主要的原因嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果就我們掌握到的通報內容，應該說有幾個類型，包含剛剛講的暴力等通報，這些算多，還有其他類型。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，其實大家有個錯誤，暴力是很受人矚目，但是大多數青少年犯罪是什麼？是詐欺，詐欺才是目前青少年犯罪率節節升高的主要原因，它對學子的戕害、為禍更甚於暴力事件。我們往下看。為什麼學生會參與詐欺？您覺得呢？他是當車手嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：對，這是我們掌握到的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼學生去當車手？"],["潘部長文忠：有一些誘因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有誘因，他可能看在錢的份上，不曉得後果很嚴重。教唆青少年犯罪會加重刑責，教唆的人也很清楚找年輕人去犯罪、找學生犯案是很嚴重的。但是青少年當車手，他的未來會怎麼樣？對他一輩子的影響是可能信用破產、可能沒辦法貸款買房子，對於這點，部長，你覺得年輕人知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：有些可能不那麼清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。所以我覺得青少年犯罪除了少數暴力事件讓社會大眾矚目之外，其實更潛藏這些青少年在觀念上不曉得這些犯罪的嚴重後果，所以我們看到司改前進校園講座列車啟動。你知道他們到哪裡宣講嗎？重點我已經幫你標出來了，就是大專校院，因為怕年輕人被騙到柬埔寨去。但目前青少年犯罪事實上指的是12到18歲，這些青少年犯罪中，有些也是當車手喔！有還在學的學生、未滿18歲者去幫人家提款。您覺得是不是也需要優先向他們宣導？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，目前看到一些，尤其在年齡稍長、18歲以下族群確實有這個情形，對於這個部分，因為行政院有一項防詐專案，其實我們會再討論，委員的建議我們也會提供。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也認同嘛！由於這項司改列車計畫是法務部主導的，我也會請法務部積極參與。法務部官員也請上臺，待會兒會問到你。","除了讓學生參與司改現場、給予回饋、降低犯罪，另外一個做法就是讓學生知道犯了罪不只自己的未來發展、人生會受到影響，也害了人家、造成傷害。法務部的列席官員是哪一位？是廳長嗎？法務部矯正署周署長跟朱主任檢察官。請問署長，你知道日本有一個感化教育機構吧？"],["周署長輝煌：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：知道嘛！他們目前的做法就是讓這些少年院，類似我們的少監或矯正機構，去理解被害人家屬的心聲，從犯罪受害人的心理去同理、檢討。你覺得臺灣的矯正學校會參考辦理嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，矯正學校會做一些相關措施，比如說入校輔導調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會也有這種做法，讓他了解被害人的心裡是很痛苦的？有沒有這樣的同理心教育？"],["周署長輝煌：我們會有三級輔導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長，你覺得有沒有需要在法務部的矯治學校加入這種事、這種同理課程？"],["潘部長文忠：如果從教育的角度，我覺得應該能夠多給他們一點機會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，教育很重要。我來介紹明陽中學的校長，他說到了他這裡，他能救的很有限，大概大多數會再回籠，只是成為成年犯而已。為什麼他這麼悲觀？他說10歲就決定了啦！什麼意思？他看了這些少年犯，了解他們的成長過程，發現很多都是失能家庭下的受害者，10歲時的人格偏差造成某種偏差行為，一步一步走上歧途；他還說教育資源、輔導資源要及早投入。您同不同意？"],["潘部長文忠：同意。跟委員報告，為什麼我們這次透過學生輔導法增加人力？就是因為在小學部分也是這樣的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我很開心、欣慰地看到你們今天的書面報告中有一項計畫，要提早在116年度就國小輔導人力完成配置。"],["潘部長文忠：提前4個學年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。因為主席要求，所以我要提出結論：法務部是不是可以加強青少年法制教育、司改列車開進中學以及高級中學教育現場？國中跟高級中學，可以嗎？法務部不是在這兒？法務部有沒有……"],["周署長輝煌：可以，我們會盡全力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。是不是也請你們的矯正學校加強修復式司法，擴大辦理對象？"],["周署長輝煌：委員的建議我們會辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。教育部是不是可以在3個月內提出到116學年度整體國小輔導人力的增補計畫，讓我們知道教育部很積極地在辦理？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員。","黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.127218750000001,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.10534375,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.86346875,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.01784375,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.74659375,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.95659375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.892843750000004,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.88846875,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.90534375,"end":53.946593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.549718750000004,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":72.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":90.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.32034375,"end":93.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.63659375,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.61096875000001,"end":96.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.53471875000001,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.95221875,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.08721875,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.10346875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.66221875000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.64909375,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.28971875,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.22159375,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.06096875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.87096875,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.92096875000001,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.26784375,"end":159.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.76971875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.79596875000001,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.26784375000003,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.90721875,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.19909375,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.09284375000001,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.37534375,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.38784375,"end":228.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.90659375,"end":230.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.01596875,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.29846875,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.62721875000003,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.25159375,"end":236.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.58471875,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.34409375,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.52971875000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.68159375,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.81534375,"end":272.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.88284375,"end":273.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.00096875,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.03471875,"end":273.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.15284375000005,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.40096875,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.71721875000003,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.45846875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.56784375,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.33909375,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.32596875,"end":300.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.24971875,"end":310.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.46346875,"end":323.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.79909375,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.59159375,"end":349.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.62534375,"end":327.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.22846875000005,"end":329.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.85596875000005,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.10284375000003,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.49034375,"end":354.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.66659375,"end":364.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.81846875,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.19346875,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.24409375000005,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.61534375,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.68284375,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.69971875000005,"end":364.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.83471875000004,"end":372.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.61409375000005,"end":373.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.39034375,"end":374.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.98909375000005,"end":376.42784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.271,"end":29.037,"text":"主席．在場委員．先進列席的政府機關事長．官員．會長．公眾夥伴．媒體記者．女士先生這樣有幫節省時間了吧有請潘部長委員午安部長好部長我們今天都在關心一些校園內的暴力那你認為現在少子化你覺得我們青少年的犯罪率是降低還是提高"},{"start":30.534,"end":31.615,"text":"學生犯罪的最主要原因嗎?"},{"start":58.571,"end":79.497,"text":"跟委員報告如果就我們掌握到通報的這些內容裡面應該來說有幾個類型就包含剛講暴力等等的通報這些算多還有一個其他的類型我告訴你其實大家有一個錯誤因為暴力是很矚目但大多數的青少年犯罪是什麼是詐欺"},{"start":81.312,"end":96.228,"text":"詐欺才是目前我們青少年犯罪率當中節節升高的主要原因他對我們學子的強害、違和更甚於一個暴力事件往下看其實啊為什麼學生會去參與詐欺?您覺得呢?他是當車手嘛對,這個是我們掌握到對,那為什麼學生會去當車手?"},{"start":103.174,"end":128.669,"text":"有些誘因有誘因但是他可能看在錢的份上他可能不曉得後果很嚴重教說青少年犯罪是加重刑責教說的人很清楚找年輕人去犯罪找學生犯罪很嚴重的但是往下看但是青少年當車手他的未來怎麼樣對他一輩子的影響他可能信用破產他可能沒辦法貸款買房子這個部長你覺得我們的年輕人知道嗎"},{"start":130.439,"end":153.615,"text":"有些可能不那麼清楚是的,所以我覺得呢其實青少年犯罪除了少數的暴力事件讓大家社會矚目之外更潛藏著這些青少年他的觀念上他不曉得這些犯罪的嚴重後果所以呢,我們看到有一個施改前進校園講座的列車啟動你知道他們到哪裡去宣講嗎?重點給你標出來了"},{"start":158.305,"end":158.845,"text":"大專校園"},{"start":181.835,"end":186.039,"text":"目前看到有一些有幾年齡稍長18歲以下確實是這個教育部因為行政院有一個防詐的辦公狀案所以我們會再討論委員這個建議我想我們會提出來您也認同嘛"},{"start":199.372,"end":227.48,"text":"因為這個市改列車是法務部在主導的啦我會請法務部來繼續參與來,法務部的也請上來,待會問到你另外呢,學生參與市改現場給予一些回饋降低犯罪另外一個作法呢,就是讓學生知道你犯的罪不只你自己未來的發展人生會受到影響你也害了人家造成的傷害往下看這個是日本來那個法務部的是是哪一位是是廳長嗎"},{"start":229.322,"end":238.989,"text":"法務部教政署周署長和朱責任檢察官來那個署長是你知道日本有一個感化教育的機構吧"},{"start":241.049,"end":241.79,"text":"你覺得我們台灣的矯正學校會參考辦理嗎?"},{"start":265.228,"end":286.669,"text":"報告委員我們矯正學校是會做一些比如說相關的入校的一些輔導調查讓他去了解被害人也是很痛苦的有沒有做到一個同理心的教育我們會有三級輔導來那個部長你覺得這個有沒有需要在法務部的矯正學校去加入這種事情這樣的一個同理的一個課程"},{"start":288.974,"end":297.773,"text":"如果從教育的角度我覺得是能夠讓他們多一點機會我來介紹一位是他們的名陽的校長但是他說到了他這裡啊"},{"start":299.366,"end":321.981,"text":"他能救的很有限大概大多數會在回籠只成為成年犯而已為什麼他這麼悲觀他說10歲就決定了啦什麼意思他看了這些少年犯他瞭解他們成長過程很多都是私能家庭下的受害者他們10歲的人格偏差造成偏差行為一步步走上歧途他說教育資源、輔導資源要及早投入您同不同意"},{"start":322.441,"end":348.894,"text":"同意 同意 同意 往下 各位報告 學生輔導法為什麼我們這次增加人力 就是在小學的部分也是這樣的概念是的 所以我很開心的看到 欣慰的看到你們有一個計畫 今天的書面報告要提早在國小的輔導人力116年度完成 提前4個學年對 是 所以我最後結論了 因為主席的要求 我們的結論法務部是不是可以加強青少年的法治教育施改列車開靠的中學及高級中學的教育現場 國中跟高級中學可以嗎"},{"start":350.151,"end":351.592,"text":"請教育部及內政部列席"}]}},{"id":"150010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab6c196f40cd0b3993919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a660b2cef193fb396c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:06:29 - 12:23:14","影片長度":"00:16:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1005,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:23:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:06:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時6分）我們請蔡部長和周局長。蔡部長剛才提到違反偵查不公開有一些例外，就是辦法第八條有一些例外，我們先看第一個個案陳宗彥的案子。陳宗彥的案子在當時地檢署被質疑的時候，他馬上出來開了一個記者會說已經分「他」字案重新調查，我要請問一下，可以對外公開說本案已經分他字案的理由是什麼？他的依據是什麼？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是要對外說明，我們的作業辦法確實也可以容許的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們先跳回上一張。我們看一下，第八條第一項第七款有提到對於網路或傳媒的不實資訊，會影響到被告、關係嫌疑人或被害人這些人時，認為有澄清的必要，這時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯，但我今天的問題是，我歷年來看到的都是地檢署在為自己澄清，地檢署不會為當事人澄清。第八條第一項第七款其實是規定，對於被害人或當事人有澄清必要時可以做不公開的例外，但我看到的地檢署總是在說自己沒有不對。在檢方的邏輯裡面，是不是當事人的名譽沒有那麼重要？"],["蔡部長清祥：對被告的名譽或隱私認為有澄清的必要還是可以澄清的，所以這是全盤的並不是只對某個特定人。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我請大家注意這點，地檢署對於新聞媒體的報導影響到當事人名譽時，地檢署也應該適時的澄清，而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話。當事人、被告或告訴人被獵巫、被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來。一直以來都是這樣，社會上也都看得到。","我們再往下看，依據辦法第十一條，地檢署會成立偵查不公開檢討小組，從108年運作到現在超過五年了，部長覺得效果怎麼樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：是有再精進的必要，我們是要求每半年對外公布他們檢討的件數，到底有沒有違反、要不要查辦、要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在這邊先跟各位說一下，我現在問的東西如果涉及個案，部長不回答沒有關係，我絕對尊重偵查中的個案，我不會去做任何介入，但對通案部分，麻煩一定要說明一下。","高虹安的案子在112年4月28日有一個報導說檢方的心證已成而且起訴在即。像這樣的東西，我知道很多時候是媒體的臆測，像剛剛南檢就趕快幫自己澄清，這個時候檢方好像都不管。媒體報導馬上就要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼事情，檢方的心證已成，在這個狀況下，為什麼檢方又不跳出來替當事人說明？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果有必要，他也是會適度的做說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們再往下看一下。我有查了北檢偵查不公開部分的檢討，112年1月到6月共有30件，其中同一事實的案是13件，但沒有任何人被處分。我的問題在於不管今天怎麼樣，檢方是法務部的，我們都知道辦貪污案件，通常警方不會介入貪污案件的偵辦，所以偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、廉政署，不管是調查站、廉政署或檢方都是屬於法務部轄下，再怎麼樣一定是這些單位洩漏出去的嘛！剛剛羅致強委員有說過，當事人不可能對外洩漏對我不利的事情，顯然一定是這些相關單位的公務員講出去的，那法務部到底有沒有查詢這是怎麼回事？"],["蔡部長清祥：不一定絕對，因為可能是辯護人或者有去瞭解的行政機關。"],["吳委員宗憲：任何可能性當然有，但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人，他會不會害自己的當事人而去講這些，造成他將來辯護得更辛苦，我倒覺得這從邏輯上可能機率比較低。我覺得是這樣，不管怎樣，這些單位都是法務部底下的，法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事。"],["蔡部長清祥：我會要求，不管是檢察機關、調查機關或廉政機關，一定要遵守這個規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：我自己看了，112年4月法務部調查局也有一個檢討，結果都沒有人被處分，也就是說在這個案子裡面，不管是檢方或調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任。這部分其實我覺得滿奇怪的、滿不可思議的，也就是說所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任、一團和氣，皇城內一片祥和，大家都沒事，都不用處理任何人，對於這個我覺得無法理解。這是調查局的調查結果，都不用處分，北檢也都沒有，到最後就是大家都沒事。","不管是吳思瑤委員談的或者其他委員講的，他們都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查，但每件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分，這麼多年來就是地檢署10個，高檢署0個。我沒有辦法理解為什麼要這樣做？我在這邊穿插一個，我跟部長報告一件事情，我自己以前做檢察官時曾經有一個案子，是一位區公所的員工，那是一個他字案，我跟他問完案子要簽結了，我很客氣的把筆錄問完，問完之後他走出去的時候回過頭來跟我講了一句話：「檢察官你知不知道，你這張傳票上面是貪污治罪條例，只是一張傳票，你害了我一輩子」，因為他長官馬上把他調到最邊邊去，他家裡的人整天在擔心受怕。也就是說檢察官的一個作為，任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害，我們真的不能這樣做。今天因為一個案子他涉案被調查，將來可能是還他清白，但在這段時間的這種搞法，搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦？他的一輩子被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了。這件事情應該至少十年以上了，但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力。希望部長能告訴所有同仁不能這樣做，今天你違反偵查不公開，洩漏出去，有的人可能只是選情受影響，但有的人可能一輩子受害，家裡人很痛苦，每天都在擔心，收到傳票人的心情，部長當過檢察官也能夠體會。"],["蔡部長清祥：我同意委員的看法，所以我們一直要求所有辦案人員一定要非常謹慎的處理他們手邊偵查的案件。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們再看一下宜蘭縣的案子也是，林姿妙縣長的案子，在111年1月13日廉政署搜索完畢後，隔天獨家報導就出來了，日期、內容全部都洩漏出來。今天不管是檢察官或廉政署都是法務部底下，這件事到底有沒有查清楚？結果宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人。這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影，後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情。本案也是一件很奇怪的事情，廉政署查也沒有人有責任，結果宜蘭地檢署對外的說法，竟然是少數人士或媒體以「政治追殺」、「東廠」、「國家機器」而妄加臆測，實不足信。這個是怎麼樣？今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了，檢察官是偵查主體指揮廉政署，自己應該要負最大責任，卻在這個時候去教訓民眾說你們不要來講我壞話，這絕對不對的！其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰，我今天捍衛的是我們的司法，因為這些事情一件一件的累積下去，搞到最後人民對司法的信任度越來越低，這是我不樂見的，我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人。","我們再往下看，我想偵查人員的思維，發動偵查前我們真的不希望案子辦不下去，但發動偵查後真的也不要走漏風聲，很多時候是不是為了邀功、是不是為了升遷，我們常幹了一些事情，結果到最後判無罪，當事人被判無罪也受了一輩子的傷害了。這個檢察官可能為了升遷，他升遷成了但後面很多判無罪，在實務上我不多說也不去指特定人，但這可能是長期以來很多檢察官都認為的陋習，部裡一定要去想想這個部分，因為每個人都是國民，都是我們要保護的對象，這個請一定要注意。","再來就是現在有一些星光大道，周局長，我個人也覺得有一點問題，雖然它有安定民心的一些作用，但很多時候會不會讓人民產生一些偏見，尤其現在是國民法官，如果讓國民法官會造成案子的偏見，對於司法不是好事。我引用美國首席大法官曾說過的話，法律難以改變人民的偏見，但不應該為偏見服務，更不可以讓人們的偏見，因法律直接或間接產生力量。千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了、搞不清楚，對某些事情產生一些預先的想法。","再來我們看一下楊文科的案子，今天前面很多人都提了，我也不多說，但我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊全部把它爆出來，我沒有說記者怎麼樣，因為記者本來就是去挖新聞，今天承辦的是新竹縣調站和北機組、新竹地檢署，就這3個單位，也都是法務部底下的，為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料，包括在他家搜到多少錢這些細節，當天講了什麼，週刊都可以爆出來，我覺得這是不可思議的。這個案子裡被害者是國家，其他當事人大部分都是被告，被告沒有必要洩出來讓自己更難堪，律師也沒有必要講出來讓自己以後辯護時更辛苦，所以我必須說，這個如果要推給其他人，推給警察、推給律師，總是在邏輯上說不通。這部分我也覺得，麻煩不要讓這些案子搞到最後變成是帶風向的案子，這會影響將來國民法官在看案子時的想法，這都會有影響。我國不像歐洲有遺忘權，所以很多東西在網路上就是一輩子的事情，這沒有辦法抹滅，是不是我們應該要儘量避免讓這個事情發生？既然我們有偵查不公開的規定，儘量要嚴守偵查不公開。如果事情發生之後，你推我、我推你，每個機關推來推去，大家都沒事，這個也不對！就是因為這樣推來推去，大家沒事，人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果，但大家都說我沒事，不關我的事，這就是對於司法的一個傷害。最後，周局長。"],["周局長幼偉：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛剛翁主席提到上銬這件事，雖然我跟大家的想法有點不太一樣，但我必須講，警察高層麻煩你們還是要有肩膀。在這件事情上面，第一時間警方跳出來是說上銬違反比例原則，要處分。對不對？第一時間他出來講的是這個。當時我是講，警察依據檢察官核發的拘票，因為我沒看過卷，我不敢說檢察官拘票核發是否適當，這個我不評論，但警察依據檢察官核發的拘票對被告上手銬，第一個法律上面，第一關是沒有問題的，再來有沒有違反比例原則？你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下，沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則，不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒！我們要挺基層，警察也辛苦、社工也辛苦，但我們是法治國，我們應該一切依照法律走，要捍衛法律，這時候是不是先要弄清楚只有在場執行的人有裁量權，認為當時到底需不需要上手銬，長官要弄清楚當時上手銬的原因，我們再來談要不要處分他，更何況被告如果脫逃的話，有個脫逃罪，警察是有刑責的，所以我認為這個時候不要每次發生事情警方高層第一個跳出來先罵警察，你先釐清，如果是後來手銬外露，你要處分，我絕對贊成，但前階段上銬到底有沒有違反比例原則，真的是要弄清楚之後再下定論。好不好？"],["周局長幼偉：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：畢竟警方也是公務員裡面算是因公殉職不是第一名就是第二名高的工作，也是值得保護。"],["周局長幼偉：對於委員的要求，我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來請王委員鴻薇詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.80221875,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.73221875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.10721875,"end":29.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.882843750000003,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.299718750000004,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.704093750000006,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.29346875,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.93409375,"end":54.149093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.73971875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.98346875,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.27034375,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.82721875,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.860968750000005,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.37034375,"end":69.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.63909375,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.67346875000001,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.35784375,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.19221875,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.35659375,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.33721875,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.23034375,"end":170.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.62034375000002,"end":170.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.10971875,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.52534375000002,"end":186.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.97221875000002,"end":191.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.96721875,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":203.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.67846875,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.69534375,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.79971875,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.50846875000002,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.04409375,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.92971875,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.12534375,"end":235.43721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.19534375,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.56596875000002,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.80096875000004,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.42846875000004,"end":267.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.05659375,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.00971875,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.14846875,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.81846875,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.84784375000004,"end":283.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.83471875000004,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.34471875,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.20909375,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.35596875000005,"end":301.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.95409375,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.93659375000004,"end":308.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.69159375000004,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.03721875,"end":319.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.69409375000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.68471875,"end":328.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.92471875,"end":332.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.43096875000003,"end":337.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.52659375,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":349.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.46159375,"end":350.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.74409375000005,"end":353.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.01784375,"end":354.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":358.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.40534375000004,"end":359.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.58659375,"end":359.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.75096875,"end":363.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.16409375,"end":363.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.21034375000005,"end":370.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.13409375000003,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.23096875000005,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.84659375,"end":372.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.13721875000005,"end":380.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.14034375,"end":384.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.76409375000003,"end":387.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.75909375000003,"end":402.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.26346875,"end":403.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.90034375000005,"end":408.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.71784375000004,"end":436.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.40971875,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.96596875,"end":442.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":447.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.38284375,"end":452.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.95596875,"end":453.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.96846875000006,"end":469.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":470.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.11346875000004,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.53909375,"end":476.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.62721875000005,"end":482.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.80784375,"end":484.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.68096875000003,"end":485.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.21659375,"end":487.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.53284375000004,"end":498.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.14284375000005,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.01096875,"end":507.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.96846875000006,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3303437500001,"end":515.4778437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.6128437500001,"end":521.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.1940937500001,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.90659375,"end":526.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.32409375,"end":529.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.45034375,"end":529.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.48409375,"end":529.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.5347187500001,"end":538.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.2265937500001,"end":530.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.7490937499999,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.9172187500001,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.66346875,"end":547.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.9453437500001,"end":550.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.10096875,"end":553.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.6953437500001,"end":560.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.0065937500001,"end":569.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.6128437500001,"end":573.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.1015937500001,"end":580.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.03721875,"end":582.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.85971875,"end":586.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.8928437500001,"end":587.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.52971875,"end":592.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.90034375,"end":597.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.48596875,"end":599.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.74721875,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.62471875,"end":602.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.2109687500001,"end":608.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.20159375,"end":611.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.5090937500001,"end":613.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.43721875,"end":614.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.65221875,"end":617.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.34784375,"end":619.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.98471875,"end":621.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.7397187500001,"end":632.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.06284375,"end":638.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.68221875,"end":639.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.7534687500001,"end":643.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.4197187500001,"end":651.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.60409375,"end":660.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.53534375,"end":674.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.84534375,"end":679.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.21159375,"end":681.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.00034375,"end":684.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.24471875,"end":688.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.61534375,"end":689.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.06659375,"end":692.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.46284375,"end":693.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.53846875,"end":695.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.8884687500001,"end":701.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.30534375,"end":707.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.19034375,"end":712.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.23596875,"end":717.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.1297187499999,"end":720.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.69471875,"end":722.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.7703437499999,"end":727.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.5459687500002,"end":733.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.0090937500001,"end":738.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.7847187500001,"end":739.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.0672187499999,"end":743.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.5053437500001,"end":746.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.42471875,"end":756.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.8703437500001,"end":759.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.7434687500001,"end":765.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.79721875,"end":770.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.9990937500002,"end":772.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.75409375,"end":773.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.10409375,"end":776.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.07409375,"end":783.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.7565937500001,"end":788.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":789.1059687500001,"end":792.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.84784375,"end":794.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.96159375,"end":795.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.92346875,"end":797.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.91471875,"end":798.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":798.57284375,"end":802.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.1628437500001,"end":805.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.03159375,"end":806.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.92596875,"end":808.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.5290937500001,"end":811.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.97159375,"end":817.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.6415937500001,"end":820.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.55659375,"end":824.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.93159375,"end":829.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.55534375,"end":832.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.64346875,"end":834.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.56284375,"end":836.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.6597187500001,"end":841.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.92471875,"end":845.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.26159375,"end":847.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.8815937500001,"end":850.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.91909375,"end":854.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.88471875,"end":876.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":876.21471875,"end":878.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.93159375,"end":881.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.88471875,"end":883.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.2222187500001,"end":882.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.1628437500001,"end":887.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.01034375,"end":890.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":890.44034375,"end":891.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.54534375,"end":896.1609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.02159375,"end":898.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.9622187500001,"end":900.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.4597187500001,"end":908.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":908.42909375,"end":912.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.93471875,"end":915.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.6684687500001,"end":925.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.9453437500001,"end":926.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.12659375,"end":928.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":929.10096875,"end":932.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.8259687500001,"end":956.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":957.0122187500001,"end":965.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":966.07409375,"end":968.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":968.92596875,"end":974.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":975.62534375,"end":977.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":977.49846875,"end":979.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.29971875,"end":991.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":991.8759687500001,"end":994.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":994.1709687500002,"end":997.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":998.27159375,"end":1004.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1000.7353437500001,"end":1002.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1002.7603437500002,"end":1002.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1004.3803437500001,"end":1005.6628437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.485,"end":4.866,"text":"蔡部長、周局長"},{"start":24.424,"end":38.755,"text":"蔡副長您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開他有一些例外嘛就是辦法第8條其他有一些例外那我想請問一下我們現在先看第一個個案"},{"start":40.155,"end":69.162,"text":"陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的"},{"start":70.759,"end":99.961,"text":"好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清"},{"start":100.802,"end":100.942,"text":"副部長"},{"start":130.384,"end":130.444,"text":"地檢署對於"},{"start":146.437,"end":170,"text":"新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看"},{"start":171.401,"end":185.81,"text":"我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣"},{"start":187.288,"end":202.788,"text":"是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明"},{"start":205.43,"end":230.529,"text":"我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即"},{"start":233.231,"end":247.229,"text":"那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個"},{"start":248.669,"end":273.19,"text":"媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分"},{"start":274.192,"end":290.34,"text":"他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣"},{"start":291.58,"end":318.873,"text":"檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去"},{"start":319.833,"end":319.853,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":339.523,"end":363.021,"text":"任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":364.389,"end":387.337,"text":"我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任"},{"start":389.798,"end":408.004,"text":"都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解"},{"start":411.065,"end":436.268,"text":"這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說"},{"start":438.699,"end":446.925,"text":"為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工"},{"start":448.43,"end":476.333,"text":"我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個"},{"start":477.679,"end":506.808,"text":"任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望"},{"start":508.004,"end":526.083,"text":"部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也"},{"start":527.624,"end":552.655,"text":"當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來"},{"start":554.921,"end":557.868,"text":"馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來"},{"start":561.055,"end":586.214,"text":"今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個"},{"start":589.455,"end":611.421,"text":"醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體"},{"start":612.597,"end":639.471,"text":"指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再"},{"start":641.772,"end":650.686,"text":"我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後"},{"start":652.645,"end":673.99,"text":"真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是"},{"start":674.91,"end":676.551,"text":"現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得"},{"start":695.964,"end":719.799,"text":"呃 這個 局長 州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個"},{"start":721.3,"end":745.977,"text":"他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法"},{"start":747.449,"end":765.507,"text":"好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是"},{"start":766.843,"end":792.635,"text":"今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是"},{"start":793.814,"end":793.834,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":821.687,"end":840.842,"text":"這些案子搞到最後就是為了 呃 變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法 這都會有影響然後 呃 因為我國啊 總是沒有 我國不像歐洲有 有那個遺忘權啦"},{"start":841.977,"end":861.99,"text":"那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事"},{"start":862.71,"end":891.107,"text":"這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個"},{"start":893.601,"end":899.988,"text":"警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面"},{"start":902.243,"end":924.698,"text":"第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬"},{"start":926.004,"end":932.555,"text":"那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":933.888,"end":956.038,"text":"你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚"},{"start":957.065,"end":974.111,"text":"只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候"},{"start":975.606,"end":975.646,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員"}]}},{"id":"150009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a7f7e257b991e19721b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a668093d066759b1035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:04:47 - 12:13:48","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":541,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:04:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時04分）主席謝謝。麻煩請黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃天牧主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，先恭喜您高票當選，我們第一次在這個委員會見面，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：感謝主委，讓我持續有機會來質詢你。不過，面對問題、解決問題，我想是一定的準則。每幾年臺灣就會出現一些特定的金融商品熱賣，譬如說，本席有印象，應該十幾年前的投資型保單，突然間很火紅，那個時候大家也是有一窩蜂的現象；還有所謂的境外基金、外幣基金等等。","近期討論到ETF，你的報告第11頁，本席特別看了一下，現在要針對所謂的網紅合作規範。資訊公開透明，當然大家都認同，但是為什麼過去到現在有這種過熱的情況，很多人認為在行銷的手法上好像會被美化，讓消費者、一般的民眾不一定知道它的風險，而導致一窩蜂的情況。所以本席現在想請教，如果針對你剛剛有提到的，現在要求所謂的廣告規範、自律規範，到底有沒有相關的罰則？"],["黃主任委員天牧：自律目前是沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有罰則？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的還是有一些網紅持續行銷，不管是拍影片或有業配文出來，那怎麼辦？有要求下架的機制嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分其實公會訂完自律規範之後，如果業者沒有遵循，自然證期局在日常監理上也會採取相關的措施。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關措施包括什麼？現在分二塊，主委，你先聽我把話講完。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這是新型態的部分，以前在投資型保單的時候可能還沒有網路，沒有現在YouTuber等等這些網紅嘛，現在第一，是會針對那個網紅還是針對公司？"],["黃主任委員天牧：基本上是針對公司，公司跟網紅……"],["洪委員孟楷：針對公司。所以網紅影片持續放在那邊，有任何要求下架的機制嗎？如果他的影片明顯就是講得很偏頗，或是會有誤導投資大眾之嫌，有沒有接受檢舉的機制？以及會不會要求這個影片下架？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們現在討論的都是發覺投信有跟網紅的一些協議行銷的機制，有的是直接，有的是透過行銷公司，我們現在就是要責成投信跟網紅之間的機制要涵蓋一些必要的內容，不要誤導投資人。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！主委，你跳太快了啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：喔，對不起。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在講的是，我們去了解，如果這可能是發行公司跟網紅合作發行的影片，簡單講，是受僱關係，我給你多少錢請網紅拍一個影片來推薦某一支ETF，這樣子的行為可能可以有連結性。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席還有第二個問題，現在自媒體很多，如果今天我是一個客戶，我自己買了一個ETF覺得很不錯，我自己去講這個ETF賺了多少錢，秀出我的投資報酬率等等相關的收益表，這樣有沒有觸犯相關的刑責？有沒有觸犯相關的規定？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前在金管會這邊，如果不是跟投信直接、間接連結，目前我可以說它並沒有違反什麼金管會跟公會的相關規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣會不會出現漏洞？主委，我們今天討論就是要務實啊。ETF過熱，這是一個現象，當然有兩種後果，一個就是放任，反正市場機制，到最後淘汰了，市場願打願買，自己個人負責。但是另外一個部分，是針對資訊不透明或有誤導之嫌的時候，主管機關當然有一定的權責嘛。因此本席才講今天我們最重要的重點在於網紅如果有一些行銷推薦的影片，有誤導之實，到底主管機關的態度是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您這樣報告，如果是跟投信直接、間接連結的，現在在公會的自律規範就可以處理。如果不是直接連結的……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛才講處理，是沒有要求他影片下架啊。"],["黃主任委員天牧：請副局長跟委員報告一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有沒有要求影片下架？"],["高副局長晶萍：委員講的是沒有跟投信投顧業者合作，如果網紅只是純粹在他的影片中介紹……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，分兩階段，因為主委一直把我的問題跳開，所以我現在要focus。第一，如果是跟投信業者有合作，你明白的確認。你的報告裡有講，影片或內容要加註警語，譬如說這是某某公司贊助嘛。其實我們常聽到很多金融商品，最後都會很快速念一段「投資有賺有賠，申購前應了解公開說明書」等等，對不對？"],["高副局長晶萍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那是金管會要求，才會有這一段嘛。一樣的道理，現在因為有新型態的網路行銷，我們怎麼樣去規範？"],["高副局長晶萍：剛剛委員有提到，他因為有置入性行銷，如果他是跟網紅合作，他要警語說我是某某公司有贊助的，讓投資人知道這是行銷的廣告。如果純粹只是網紅的分享，這個我們可能就沒有辦法用投信端連結。如果是投信端委託的網紅的廣告，內容有一些比較不適當的，我們從投信端會要求投信公司改善，後續可能會請網紅做一些比較平實的資訊揭露，不要誤導投資人。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果沒有改善呢？"],["高副局長晶萍：如果沒有改善，會違反公會規定的話，嚴重的我們可以依投信顧法來做行政裁罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政裁罰多少錢？"],["高副局長晶萍：60萬元到300萬元。"],["洪委員孟楷：60萬元到300萬元，多久裁罰一次？一案一罰？如果網紅的影片持續在那邊不下架。現在的狀況，大家覺得60萬元到300萬元的罰金其實非常低，公平會被問到的時候，還有說他可以根據公平交易法，從5萬元到2,500萬元來罰！那你現在是主管機關，只有60萬元到300萬元，最多300萬元，會不會有一些投信業者乾脆覺得這也是廣告費的一環，我就把它變成廣告成本。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們送到財委會審的投信投顧法會提高到1,500萬元。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：投信投顧法，現在有提高罰則到1,500萬元。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但是現行階段是60萬元到300萬元啊，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席今天提的問題其實都是很直接，而且也應該是主管機關要想到的，還有應該是出現在今天的報告裡的。第一，如果有連結，現在沒有主動要求影片下架的機制，只能被動，這個時間過程會拖多久？不知道！第二，如果是一般人員的分享，或者我就刻意說這是我的分享，你不知道他私下有沒有跟投信業者有任何的收益或報酬，你沒有辦法舉證、沒有辦法查清，這是另外一個部分。還有，新聞報導那麼熱，有些時候大家會看到新聞報導，今天大家又擠破頭買哪一個，有沒有需要在新聞報導旁邊也加註一些公平、示警的狀況？"],["主席：洪委員，今天的議題確實很熱，還有很多人要質詢。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，沒有錯啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有關網紅的部分，6月底前就會完成，6月底前會完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有包括新聞媒體嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有、沒有，只有網紅。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有？是啊，所以主委……"],["黃主任委員天牧：新聞媒體有另外一個尺度，我們也要合理……"],["洪委員孟楷：你是主管機關，本席現在強調你是主管機關，你不能說新聞有另外尺度，所以新聞媒體要丟給NCC、丟給數發部，這不應該嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們是不是事後跟您報告。"],["主席：事後跟你說明一下，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：事後我們去辦公室跟您報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，重點在於你們的態度問題，不會把ETF當成不是金管會的事情吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是我們的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！是你們的問題，所以才應該有積極的作為，去了解現在市場上的狀況，以及你們應該要怎麼樣做一個更健全整個市場的機制才對！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，現在的狀況就是網紅，我們會處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：請會後來我辦公室。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢。接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.16909375,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.53096875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.04096875,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.12096875,"end":27.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.195343750000003,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.01471875,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.44659375,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.01846875000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.34284375,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.64159375,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.98721875000001,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.61159375000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.23596875000001,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.53034375,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.76596875000001,"end":114.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":127.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.67971875,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.64971875,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.55534375,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.93846875,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.97221875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.72721875000002,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":151.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.39534375000002,"end":169.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.21971875,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.68784375,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.95096875000002,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.66784375,"end":190.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.76909375000002,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.49596875,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.86159375000003,"end":221.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.22409375,"end":223.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.79659375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.24284375,"end":267.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.03596875,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.22971875,"end":267.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.30096875000004,"end":272.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.52846875,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.31284375,"end":285.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.74596875000003,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.32721875000004,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.33534375,"end":354.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.94096875,"end":333.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.89534375,"end":356.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80221875,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.19409375000004,"end":361.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.32471875000005,"end":362.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.38346875,"end":371.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.87159375000005,"end":373.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.55471875,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.25471875000005,"end":378.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.34721875,"end":383.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.95409375,"end":384.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.89909375,"end":389.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.31596875,"end":396.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.31909375000004,"end":402.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.38159375000004,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.87471875,"end":407.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.92534375,"end":411.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.71346875,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.89846875,"end":418.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.39159375,"end":431.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.97596875000005,"end":454.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.49159375000005,"end":456.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.14096875,"end":458.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.55846875000003,"end":460.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.64659375,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.09659375,"end":471.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.53096875000006,"end":475.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.63596875,"end":476.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.49221875,"end":484.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.77034375000005,"end":481.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.90471875000003,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.76096875,"end":487.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.45284375000006,"end":487.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.17409375000005,"end":488.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.30909375000005,"end":488.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.49471875,"end":493.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.74784375,"end":489.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.88221875000005,"end":503.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.18846875,"end":504.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.37409375000004,"end":509.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.40784375000004,"end":504.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.87971875000005,"end":510.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.90471875000003,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.98909375000005,"end":511.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.00596875,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.02284375000005,"end":518.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2747187500001,"end":533.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.2197187500001,"end":520.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.21346875,"end":533.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.7197187500001,"end":536.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.87534375,"end":537.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.9428437500001,"end":540.68909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.522,"end":10.563,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請黃主委有請黃天牧主委委員各位先恭喜您高票當選我們第一次在這個委員會見面感謝主委感謝主委讓我持續有機會來質詢你不過面對問題解決問題我想是一定的準則"},{"start":28.257,"end":47.752,"text":"每幾年臺灣就會出現一些特定的金融商品好像熱賣比如說本席有印象幾年前應該十幾年前投資情報單突然間很火紅那那個時候大家也是有一窩蜂的一個現象那也有所謂的什麼境外基金外幣基金等等的那近期討論到這個ETF"},{"start":50.066,"end":78.218,"text":"你的報告裡面第11頁本席也特別看了一下現在要針對所謂的網紅合作其實資訊公開透明當然大家都認同但是為什麼過去現在有這種過熱的一個情況很多人就認為是說在行銷的手法上好像就會被美化讓消費者不一定讓一般的民眾不一定知道說他的風險而導致一窩蜂的一個情況所以本席現在想請教如果說針對你剛剛有提到的"},{"start":80.904,"end":101.516,"text":"針對現在要求這個所謂的自律規範、廣告規範、自律規範到底有沒有相關的罰則自律目前是沒有沒有罰則那如果說真的還是有一些這種網紅行銷持續的不管是拍影片、業配文那出來怎麼辦有要求下架的機制嗎"},{"start":103.536,"end":128.726,"text":"這個部分其實國會訂完自律規範之後如果業者沒有遵循自然政企局在日常監理上也會採取相關的一些措施相關措施包括什麼先分兩塊主委你先聽我把話講完因為這個是新型態的一個部分以前在投資型保單的時候可能還沒有網路沒有到現在YouTube等等的這些網紅那現在第一是會針對那個網紅還是針對公司"},{"start":135.086,"end":151.281,"text":"所以網紅影片持續放在那邊那我們有任何的要求下架機制嗎如果說明顯他的影片就是講的很偏薄或說會讓有誤導投資大眾之嫌那有沒有接受檢舉的一個機制以及有沒有會要求這個影片下架"},{"start":152.401,"end":169.542,"text":"大委員我們現在討論的都是發掘投信有跟網紅的一些協議行銷的機制有的是直接有的是透過行銷公司那我們現在就是要責成投信跟網紅這間機制要涵蓋一些必要的內容不要誤導投資人是啊"},{"start":171.223,"end":187.13,"text":"主委你跳太快了本席現在先講的是說如果說有影片我們去了解到是說這可能是發行的公司他去跟網紅合作就簡單講受雇關係我跟你多少錢請網紅拍一個影片來推薦某一支ETF"},{"start":187.99,"end":209.868,"text":"那這樣子的一個行為你可能可以有連結性那本席還有第二個問題是現在自媒體很多如果說我今天我是一個客戶我自己買了一個ETF我覺得很不錯我自己去講說哇我這個ETF賺了多少錢我秀出我的這個投資報酬率等等的相關的這個收益表那這樣有沒有觸犯相關的一個行則有沒有觸犯相關的一個規定"},{"start":210.569,"end":221.036,"text":"目前在金管會這邊如果不是跟投信連結直接間接連結目前我是可以說他並沒有說違反我們什麼金管會跟工會的相關的那這樣會不會出現漏洞"},{"start":222.267,"end":240.094,"text":"就說因為我覺得主委我們今天討論就是要務實啊ETF過熱這是一個現象那當然有兩種一個是說我就是放任反正市場機制到最後淘汰了市場願打願買然後自己個人負責但另外一個部分是說針對資訊"},{"start":242.375,"end":267.999,"text":"不透明或說有誤導之嫌的時候我們主管機關當然有一定的一個權責嘛也因此本期才講是說今天我們最重點是在於是網紅如果說有一些行銷推薦的影片他誤導支持的時候我們主管機關到底態度是什麼我跟您這樣報告如果是跟投信直接間接連結的現在在公會這裡規範就可以處理那如果不是直接連結的但你想處理是沒有要求他影片下架"},{"start":270.339,"end":295.576,"text":"那個請副局長你跟他報告一下你有沒有要求影片下架就是如果說像委員講的是說沒有跟投信顧業者的合作的話那如果他網紅只是純粹在他的影片上分兩階段因為主委一直把我的問題也跳開所以說我現在要focus第一如果說是跟投信業者有合作那你明明白的確認那你"},{"start":296.356,"end":318.828,"text":"剛剛你的報告裡面有講是說你的影片或是內容你要加注警語譬如說這個是某某公司贊助嘛其實我們常聽到很多的金融商品都講說最後都會很快速唸一段嘛投資有賺有賠就申購前進了解公開說明書等等的對不對那個是我們監管會那時候要求才會有這一段嘛那一樣到底現在因為新型態的網路行銷我們怎麼樣去規範"},{"start":320.573,"end":342.029,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到就他因為有置入性行銷所以如果他是跟網紅合作他要警語說我是某某公司有贊助的讓投資人知道這個是行銷的廣告那如果說純粹只是網紅的分享那這個可能我們就沒有辦法用投信端連結那如果剛剛有講到說如果是投信端委託的"},{"start":342.87,"end":343.51,"text":"如果沒有改善呢?"},{"start":363.41,"end":375.457,"text":"如果說沒有改善違反工會的規定的話我們嚴重可以依照我們的投信固法來做行政裁罰行政裁罰多少錢上60萬到300萬60萬到300萬"},{"start":379.383,"end":394.575,"text":"那多久才罰一次一案一罰如果說網紅他的影片持續在那邊不下架因為現在的狀況是大家覺得是說你的60到300其實是非常低公平會被問到的時候還要講到是說他可以用公平交易法從5萬到2500萬來罰"},{"start":397.366,"end":409.9,"text":"那你現在我們主管機關只有60到300最多300那會不會有有一些投信業者乾脆覺得說這也是廣告費的一環我就把它變成廣告成本我能收到財委會審的投信投資會提高到1500萬"},{"start":411.789,"end":416.952,"text":"主委本席今天提的問題其實都是很直接而且也應該是主管機關要想到的還有應該是出現在今天報告裡的"},{"start":432.102,"end":459.763,"text":"第一如果說有連結我們現在沒有主動的要求影片下架的一個機制我們只能被動的那這個時間過程會拖多久不知道第二如果說是一般人員的分享或者是說我就刻意講是說沒有這是我的分享你不知道說他私下有沒有跟投信業者有任何的一個收益或是報酬這你沒有辦法舉證你沒有辦法查清這也是另外一個部分那還有新聞報導那麼的樂"},{"start":461.704,"end":486.958,"text":"有些時候大家會看到新聞報導哇 今天哪一個 又大家擠破頭那新聞報導上面有沒有需要在旁邊也加注一些公平的一個市井的一個狀況黃委員今天的議題確實很熱啦 很多人要是啊 沒有錯六月底前就會完成啦六月底前會完成所以有包括新聞媒體嗎沒有沒有也沒有"},{"start":488.263,"end":502.405,"text":"所以所以主委所以也要新聞媒體有他的另外一個尺度啦我們也要就是合理不是你是主管機關本席現在強調說你是主管機關所以說你不能說新聞媒體另外尺度所以你新聞媒體要丟給NCC丟給速發部"},{"start":504.392,"end":531.874,"text":"這不應該嗎?我們的投顧的這個我們是不是事後跟您報告我想待會兒我再說一下好不好事後我們去報告再跟您報告我覺得 主委重點在於是你們的態度問題不會把這個ETF當成不是金管會的事情嗎是我們的問題是 是你們的問題所以說才應該有積極的作為去了解說現在市場上的狀況以及你們應該要怎麼樣來做一個更健全整個市場的機制才對有 現在的狀況就是網紅了我們會對"},{"start":534.036,"end":537.347,"text":"會後來我辦公室好 了解可以嗎好 謝謝委員謝謝孟愷委員質詢接著我們請王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"150008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a0cbee38d55de35a55d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a64b89dbeabfb43c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:05:56 - 12:13:04","影片長度":"00:07:08","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":428,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:13:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:05:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":815,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時6分）主席、各位委員！有請次長。"],["主席：請林國顯次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好！"],["林次長國顯：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為次長過去擔任過路政司司長，所以我今天就問有關公路的部分。"],["林次長國顯：那是10年前的事，不過沒關係，沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：公路總局有將臺東縣關山鎮東七線拓寬成為台九線外環道這樣的規劃，但是國防部則希望能興建戰備跑道，臺東關山鎮的鄉親不同意這個戰備跑道與關山的東七線併在一起，因為這樣會再拓寬很多，會增加很多農地變成道路的面積，所以他們反對，臺東縣長希望能夠再往東移，與河堤共構。上次進行花東快速公路可行性評估的時候，交通部公路總局有去關山開可行性評估說明會，由於花東快速公路目前的路線就是在河堤這個地方，所以鄉親也希望能跟花東快一樣建在河堤這個地方，這樣就不會影響很多的農田，若能如此，對這個戰備跑道我們絕對支持，因為糧食也很重要，尤其是戰爭期間，糧食也很重要，所以這個部分還請交通部能夠再考量。我也就此質詢過國防部，國防部部長說會跟交通部公路總局再研議，這個部分希望能往這個方向考慮。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員！我想花東快原來就有選定一條路，現在台九外環線如果要跟它整合，看看頭尾有沒有辦法一起處理，我想我們會和公總再一起討論一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好好研議。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為畢竟是人民的意見。"],["林次長國顯：瞭解，但是戰備道有它的規範，不能在有高架橋的地方，所以這個我們還要看軍方的需求。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那一段不一定要高架。"],["林次長國顯：瞭解，那我們就看選線跟這一條可不可以整合。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來的最後一個議題是蘇花安的環評卡關，這個部分如果去對照蘇花改，那時候你還在，對吧？"],["林次長國顯：是，環評是我們做的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，是你在路政司任職的時候，行政院在97年11月10號同意蘇花改的可行性研究，到99年僅2年時間就完成了環評，現在蘇花改已經完成了，要進行的是蘇花安，但事實上以蘇花改跟蘇花安相較，蘇花改的難度更高，行政院在108年核定蘇花安的可行性研究，但是環評到現在都還沒有完成，所以這個部分是一個需要去加強的地方。而且因為有時候來的環評人員不一樣……"],["林次長國顯：委員會更換。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，會換，所以在這部分，公路總局、交通部你們說明的時候要把它說清楚，要讓他先知道蘇花改當時的難度和影響更高，這個蘇花安是比較低的，因為環評的人不一樣，所以這會出現讓人覺得很奇怪的一個狀況，這個部分要講明。"],["林次長國顯：確實，對這個部分，我想我們公路局應該要充分來說明，您提的沒有錯，當時蘇花高速公路跟蘇花改，蘇花改已經挑最危險的路段去處理了，所以理論上，蘇花安在環境影響上應該是相對較少，對環評委員提的意見，我請公路局去說明。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要做很好的說明，尤其是因為你們是要做高架，有的意見是說做高架的話會不會影響什麼什麼，對這樣的意見你們可以馬上拿南迴公路給他看，南迴公路現在都是高架，對環評人員我們不批評，但要讓他瞭解、能夠支持。"],["林次長國顯：因為高架反而對地表生態的影響相對來說是小的，那就看委員的考量。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為我們已經有案例了，第一個就是蘇花改的案例，就是透過隧道或是其他的方式。第二個高架的部分也有很好的案例，就是南迴公路，每次經過南迴公路那邊大家都是「哇！超棒」，我都稱南迴公路那一段是臺東的高速公路。"],["林次長國顯：那一段做得很好，我想我們要瞭解環評委員的考量是什麼，公路局針對他的疑慮再跟他們說明清楚。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要充分的說明，讓他瞭解。我不責怪這些環評人員，因為他是第一次接觸，可能是第一次參加這個環評，他就要盡他的責任，但是如果說清楚講明白，把很好的案例告訴他，我相信他會支持。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員，我們再來轉達。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員發言完畢。","現在請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","現在請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員不在。","現在請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","現在請陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在。","現在請羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","現在請傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復的部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。","本日議程處理完畢，現在休息，3月20日（星期三）上午9點繼續開會。","休息（12時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.824718750000002,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.579093750000002,"end":29.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.08534375,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.92909375,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.84409375,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.766593750000006,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.22221875,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.23909375,"end":45.306593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.306593750000005,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.35721875,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.37409375,"end":45.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.673468750000005,"end":50.993468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.398468750000006,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.174093750000004,"end":57.203468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.455968750000004,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.19409375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.08409375000001,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.33284375000001,"end":68.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.83846875,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.95534375000001,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.48784375000001,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.64346875000001,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.04284375,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.15221875,"end":115.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.60346875,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.58596875,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.62346875,"end":126.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.18409375,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.22596875000002,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.62596875,"end":137.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.68034375000002,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.90784375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":157.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.57596875000002,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.62034375000002,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.98534375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.96409375000002,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.79471875000002,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.35159375,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.06346875,"end":201.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.89409375000002,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.89784375000002,"end":204.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.27221875,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.18346875,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.30159375000002,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.33909375000002,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.17409375000003,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.67596875,"end":222.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.73034375,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.66221875000002,"end":228.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.68721875000003,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.47596875000002,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":233.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.83409375000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.11659375000002,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.32284375,"end":240.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.03971875000002,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.37659375,"end":246.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.65909375,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.16909375,"end":253.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.32034375,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.29034375000003,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.68659375000004,"end":262.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.51721875000004,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.88409375000003,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.94659375000003,"end":274.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.97534375000004,"end":279.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.44721875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.29471875,"end":284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.88096875,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.51346875,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.01846875,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.43034375,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.76784375,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.68284375,"end":324.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.22221875,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.27284375,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.86659375,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.90846875,"end":327.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.72221875,"end":335.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.66659375,"end":339.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.56846875,"end":341.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.00284375,"end":343.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.16284375000004,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.20034375,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.82034375,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.14096875,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.49846875000003,"end":361.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.51034375,"end":361.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.52721875000003,"end":361.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.54409375,"end":361.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.56096875000003,"end":379.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.81409375000004,"end":363.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.90409375,"end":384.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.50659375000004,"end":387.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.72596875000005,"end":387.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.29096875000005,"end":391.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.96971875,"end":393.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.15534375000004,"end":396.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.66096875000005,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.76596875,"end":401.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.30596875000003,"end":416.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.37096875000003,"end":417.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.94034375,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.18909375000004,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.18034375,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.23096875000005,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.15471875000003,"end":425.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.92659375000005,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.02346875,"end":428.70659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":20.314,"end":41.903,"text":"主席委員有請這個次長請林國賢次長次長好早因為過去你擔任過路政司司長是是這個今天就問這個公路的部分10年前我沒關係那10年前沒關係"},{"start":48.883,"end":68.522,"text":"臺東縣、關山鎮、東七縣要拓寬成為臺九縣的外環道公路總局有在做這樣的規劃但是國防部是希望能夠新建戰備跑道"},{"start":71.125,"end":93.99,"text":"所以這個臺東關山鎮的鄉親就不同意這個戰備跑道蓋在這個要跟這個關山的這個東七線並在一起因為這裡面會在拓寬很多就會增加很多的這個農地的一個農田會被稻田"},{"start":95.17,"end":115.703,"text":"會被這個成為一個道路所以他們反對那這個台東的鄉親現場來講就希望能夠再往東移以這個合體共構合體共構在這個上次啊"},{"start":116.636,"end":136.607,"text":"花東快速公路可行性評估的時候交通部、公路總局有去關山做可行性評估的說明會民眾也建議因為這個花東快速公路的目前的路線就是在"},{"start":137.688,"end":161.903,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":162.648,"end":164.669,"text":"我想花東快原來就有選定一個路啦"},{"start":189.406,"end":216.815,"text":"那現在台九外環縣如果要跟他整合看看頭尾有沒有辦法一起處理這個我想工總我們再一起好演繹因為畢竟是人民的意見但是戰備道有他的規範他大概不能在高架橋的地方所以這個我們要看軍方的那個地方那一段不一定要高架那我們就看選縣跟這一條格不可以整合接下來最後一個議題"},{"start":218.523,"end":230.668,"text":"蘇花安的環評卡關這個部分如果我們去對照蘇花改蘇花改的時候你那時候還在嗎是環評是我們做的所以這個"},{"start":234.199,"end":262.375,"text":"蘇花改97年11月10號行政院同意可行性的研究99年兩年就完成的環評當初而如果舊蘇花改跟現在的蘇花改已經完成了那現在蘇花安在進行事實上舊蘇花改跟蘇花安蘇花改的難度更高所以這個部分以現在的來看"},{"start":263.621,"end":268.636,"text":"蘇巴安行政院在108年合併可行性研究"},{"start":270.417,"end":275.279,"text":"委員會更換對要會換所以這部分公務總局啊交通部你們在這說明的時候要把它說清楚就是說說話改的"},{"start":296.647,"end":323.892,"text":"當時的那個難度影響的更高這個蘇花安是比較要把它說明要讓他先知道因為環評的人不一樣啊所以這會覺得很奇怪的一個狀況所以這個部分我想這個我們公眾應該要公路局應該要充分來說明您提的沒有錯當時蘇花高速公路跟蘇花改蘇花改已經挑最危險的路段去處理"},{"start":324.952,"end":346.575,"text":"所以理論上舒嬅安應該是相對環境影響上少但是環評委員提的意見我想我請公務局詳細來說明尤其是有的意見是說因為你要做高價嘛做高價的時候會不會影響什麼什麼馬上拿回公路給他看嘛"},{"start":347.316,"end":363.198,"text":"南迴公路現在都高架嘛所以這個部分是一個讓環評人員我們不批評他但是讓他了解能夠支持因為高架環的對地表的生態影響相對是小的對因為我們委員的考量"},{"start":363.618,"end":383.773,"text":"因為我們已經有案例了第一個就是速發改的案例這在透過隧道或是其他的第二個高架的部分也有很好的案例就是這個南回公路嘛南回公路這個部分每次經過那邊哇這超棒我每次我都我都稱這個"},{"start":385.566,"end":409.093,"text":"那個公路那一段我都說那個是臺東的高速公路我想我們要了解一下環評委員的考量是什麼公路局針對他的疑慮要充分的說明讓他了解讓他了解我不責怪這些環評委員但是因為他第一次接觸"},{"start":409.693,"end":410.194,"text":"謝謝政委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"150007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8dde59d116a6303b5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a694e02f413c5145125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:52:51 - 12:05:45","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:05:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:52:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時52分）謝謝主席！請氣象署程署長。"],["主席：請程署長。"],["蔡委員其昌：請氣象署伍婉華技正。"],["主席：請伍婉華伍技正。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長！我們氣象署裡面的氣象預報員有多少人？"],["程署長家平：30人。"],["蔡委員其昌：有30人，那我們的氣象預報員需不需要有類似像國家考試的資格或者什麼資格？"],["程署長家平：我們預報的正式人員都是經高普考進用的。"],["蔡委員其昌：跟日本所謂的氣象預報士的概念有沒有一樣？"],["程署長家平：不太一樣，因為一個是國家的氣象官方機關，日本的氣象預報士其實算是經過一個民間的考試，雖然那個考試事實上是由JMA就是由日本氣象廳授權給一個相關的法人組織舉辦的。"],["蔡委員其昌：了解，所以對我們的氣象預報員而言，能夠上氣象局播報氣象他只要高考及格就可以了？"],["程署長家平：我們其實內部……"],["蔡委員其昌：你可不可以上去播氣象？"],["程署長家平：我不行，因為我們還有一個內部的訓練，要能夠上到台上需要3年，就是我們進用的高普考人員要經過3年各種、各式各樣的訓練之後才能夠上到台上來做預報。"],["蔡委員其昌：那新聞台裡面的氣象播報員需要什麼資格？"],["程署長家平：每個新聞台可能不太一樣，這裡面很重要的一件事情是一個是預報、一個是播報或者是傳播，傳播會比較單純一點，預報則需要很多很多的背景知識。"],["蔡委員其昌：我根據你的預報再加以預報或者加以傳播，那你怎麼定義這是預報或是傳播？"],["程署長家平：基本的定義是這樣子，預報的話，他必須要產生一個他自己的報告，傳播則只是把這個訊息……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，所以你們這30個人大家可以自行預報，自己認為接下來一個小時會不會下雨？"],["程署長家平：是，其實我們有一個預報討論會，因為我們是官方單位，任何的預報發布都是經過預報討論會出來的結果，所以是一個團體，採合議制。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以是合議制，派一個人出去講而已。"],["程署長家平：是，並且有審核的程序。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK！請問預報員他們的薪水是多少？"],["程署長家平：我們的預報正式人員的月薪，如果是普考進來的話大概是四萬多元，資深預報人員的薪水最高可以到8萬元。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK！就是大概在4萬到8萬之間，他們的工作時間長不長？"],["程署長家平：基本上，因為我們的預報人員需要24小時運作，所以一個班目前是12小時，採輪替方式進行，也就是在24小時裡面都會有相關的人員。"],["蔡委員其昌：他們要24小時值班就對了？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果我打電話到氣象署的諮詢專線，是由預報員接我的電話嗎？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以他們要24小時值班？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：請問伍技正，你現在還在輪值預報員嗎？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：我有時候還會輪值，颱風的時候。"],["蔡委員其昌：有颱風的時候？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：是媒體的工作。"],["蔡委員其昌：媒體的工作？所以你還在輪值，我打電話去有可能是你接的？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：目前那個電話我可能接不到，但是如果改……"],["蔡委員其昌：但你接過這個電話？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：接了好多次。"],["蔡委員其昌：你接過這個電話，覺得這個工作輕不輕鬆？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：不輕鬆，但是很有挑戰性，很刺激。"],["蔡委員其昌：就你的經驗，你覺得打電話進來的真的要問氣象的有多少人？比例多高？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：我覺得有不少比例，約六到八成，而且其中包括很多真的很關心天氣的。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我看媒體曾報導過，打電話進來的人有播什麼誦經的啦、打電話進來聊天的啦或者說些什麼的，anyway你覺得這個比例高不高？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：這部分的比例其實比以前高啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：愈來愈高了？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：我覺得是現在社會氛圍的關係。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你覺得這份工作月薪四萬多到8萬，但需24小時輪值還要接這些電話，應不應該再把它調升一下？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：委員是說薪水調升嗎？"],["蔡委員其昌：對！對！"],["伍簡任技正婉華：當然。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你也覺得明顯過低，對不對？"],["伍簡任技正婉華：我們的薪水就是按照公務員的薪資啊！"],["蔡委員其昌：對！謝謝！"],["伍簡任技正婉華：謝謝！"],["蔡委員其昌：其實我剛剛做了一個臨時提案，就是說對我而言，尤其在現代，氣象它是產業。為什麼我從氣象播報員著手？因為對於氣象，從學、訓、用，如果我們沒有把人才做好、沒有把法令規範好，政府沒有在政策上把它當成產業，其實這個產業我們就一直做不起來。根據我的調查，臺灣好像只有6家氣象公司，韓國大概早我們10年關注到這個問題，所以他們現在大概有30家左右，對於什麼叫做播報員、需具備什麼樣的條件、該負責什麼、氣象公司需要的人才是什麼這些，我覺得氣象局應該有一個統一性的規劃。其實對我而言，我覺得沒有產業的話，我們的播報同仁都很辛苦，因為外面沒有需求，所以我們的預報員沒有地方可以跑，可是如果氣象作為一個產業，你的薪水這麼低，他們就會被挖角，我認為對氣象播報這個專業來說這樣才公平。再者，其實這個產業很重要，你知道我從過去3年到現在都是中華職棒會長，我每一次跟氣象局最密切聯繫的時間是什麼？是我們辦重要比賽的時候。比如辦中華職棒明星賽，我們的同仁幾乎每一個小時就要打一通電話給我們的氣象局諮詢專線，因為要知道幾個小時後會不會下雨？我們的比賽要不要提早通知球迷今天一定會下雨所以取消？或者是在球迷來了後，我們必須很清楚的知道是延長一個小時後比賽還是兩個小時後比賽，因為以中華職棒而言，一場比賽動輒都是千萬級的錢在輸贏，所以為了這個我們一定要買保險，否則我們的損失實在太驚人，因此我們只好跟民間的保險公司來買天候的保險。我剛剛講的只是一個規模不是太大、千萬級的而已，其他的譬如說風電、太陽能等各式各樣比我們更大型的這些商演活動，它所影響的更是巨大。所以氣象不再是過去我們概念上好像這個是政府的事情，其實不是，我覺得現代的生活，從農業到各式各樣的商演活動等等，都跟氣象產生很大的關係。我看過一個統計表，美國氣象產業的產值是2,100億元，日本是200億元，韓國是80億元，臺灣只有3億元，不是因為臺灣不需要，是因為我們從來沒有好好的把氣象當成一個產業，好好的來規劃，所以署長知道我做這個臨時提案的用意了吧？"],["程署長家平：是，瞭解。特別是在我們氣象署成立的時候，其實我們做了很多討論，有關促進氣象產業發展這件事情的確也是我們在署成立時非常非常重要的一個工作，這裡面包含了如何修正氣象法來促進我們氣象產業相關的發展，所以在這個部分我們是有一些配套的作為，不過相較於我們鄰近各國或者歐美先進國家，我們臺灣的氣象產業的確是稍微有點落後，目前我們正在趕上。還有一件很重要的事情是我們產業的觀念，其實有關產業發展的最重要一件事情是市場，剛剛委員的指教已經談到這點，那麼市場的部分要靠的不僅是政府，也要依靠民間把這個市場的機會release出來，去運用，不止是政府機關的相關預報，也包含民間的預報，這部分需要一起來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長，其實這是有機會的，但是因為架構的源頭在你，譬如說你所有的衛星相關監測天氣變化的設備，民間公司的重點大概在於「跟你買data然後我來判讀」，所以他需要什麼人？譬如說我可不可以挖伍技正來我的公司？民間公司隨便開的價格都比你高嘛！但若民間沒有這類產業，他就永遠只能待在氣象署，沒有地方可以跑。所以我的意思是政策上，先讓我們的政策定出氣象公司產業這個方向，民間才可能投資。其次才是考慮投資之後東西要跟誰買，我購買data的價格跟你跟國外比起來到底是高是低。然後是政府有沒有培訓這方面的人才，譬如說政府要不要訂定證照制度，像現在網路上亂播報地震、氣象等等，就算加上「僅供學術討論」什麼的，他就連這句話都會酸你，你加任何警語他都會酸你！你有沒有考慮過這是否因為這個產業裡面沒有專業技術造成的？你要不要用國家考試來規範什麼人可以做到什麼程度？國家有這個體系後，某人開氣象公司時就知道說人才在哪裡，不然我現在開一個氣象公司，也不清楚什麼叫合格的人才，這個都是氣象署要整體去做一個規劃的。","主席已經站起來了，限於時間，我再問一個小問題就好了。我覺得我們的app真的應該要強化一下，那是國家的app，我也有下載你們的app，但其實我都是用我手機內建的app，原因很簡單，因為我要知道的是一小時內的變化，比如我等一下去某地方只有兩個小時就會離開，所以我不需要知道三小時後的，可是你們的app不管是降雨還是溫度都是三小時變更一次，可是現在隨便下載都是免費的啊！我用的蘋果手機內建的都是一小時為區隔，一小時後會不會下雨、一小時後溫度幾度，我們政府做的app是三小時為一階段，人家一般的都是一小時，難怪你的app很難用！當然你們還有其他資訊，我是說對我們一般小老百姓而言，最重要的事情就是這個而已。這個可不可以改進一下？"],["程署長家平：我們理解，其實我們下一階段就是要做一小時的，現在是間隔三小時的，未來會做一小時的。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要說什麼下一個階段，聽起來「下一個階段」不知道是要三年還是五年，人家都已經搞那麼久了，我們還在「下一個階段」！"],["主席：趕快改進啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，趕快啦！這也沒那麼困難，將app改為間隔一小時而已！我們是氣象署耶！別人連手機附屬的app都可以以一小時為間隔，我們還在搞三小時，還要下一個階段！好不好？快快處理啦！"],["程署長家平：是"],["蔡委員其昌：OK！記得先加薪啦！趕快研究一下先加薪啦！"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。蔡委員發言完畢，現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.042843750000001,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.865343750000001,"end":6.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.247218750000002,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.92159375,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.23346875,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.29221875,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.08909375,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.080343750000004,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.98284375,"end":42.775343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.91034375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.50721875,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.50971875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.56284375,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.60909375,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.60471875,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.97596875,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.02659375,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.07721875,"end":82.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.83659375,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.68034375,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.74784375,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.76471875,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.78159375,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.52409375,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.73471875,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.94096875000001,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.26409375,"end":104.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.34346875,"end":106.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.87909375000001,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.72659375,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.76346875,"end":118.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.93221875,"end":122.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.53534375000001,"end":125.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.39096875000001,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.26409375,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.00659375,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.36471875,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.07346875000002,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.26721875,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.34221875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.04971875,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.60471875000002,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.69721875000002,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.15221875,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.18846875,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.26409375,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.76596875,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.76971875,"end":186.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.83721875,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.81596875000002,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.04784375,"end":203.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.31596875000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.74596875,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.84034375000002,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.80159375000002,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.89409375000002,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.04971875,"end":234.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.51346875000002,"end":235.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.80846875,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.11596875,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.93409375000002,"end":244.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.02221875,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.65409375000002,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.79721875,"end":259.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.82096875,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.99784375,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.21721875000003,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.75721875,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.83284375,"end":269.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.93784375,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.13159375000004,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.34221875000003,"end":277.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.22346875,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.45034375,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.69034375,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.75346875,"end":292.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.54659375,"end":292.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.06096875000003,"end":296.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.55409375,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.94596875,"end":301.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.38471875000005,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.07659375000003,"end":303.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.05534375,"end":303.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.80596875000003,"end":313.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.26034375,"end":317.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.63534375,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.71534375000005,"end":320.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.31409375000004,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.33909375,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.73034375000003,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.99596875000003,"end":334.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.25284375,"end":340.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.36159375,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.20534375,"end":346.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.99784375,"end":351.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.26284375,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.14846875,"end":355.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.84034375000005,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.97909375,"end":361.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.94909375000003,"end":364.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.86409375000005,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.18346875000003,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.30534375,"end":379.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.15721875,"end":383.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.98784375,"end":388.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.91534375000003,"end":391.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.73346875000004,"end":393.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.67409375,"end":394.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.05784375,"end":398.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.27659375,"end":402.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.90471875000003,"end":405.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.92534375,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.50284375,"end":410.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.05096875000004,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.62846875,"end":418.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.42971875,"end":420.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.26909375,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.09096875,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.60409375,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.13096875,"end":441.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.27409375,"end":443.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.94471875000005,"end":449.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.51346875,"end":452.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.12471875000006,"end":454.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.08221875000004,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.24221875,"end":460.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.76909375,"end":464.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.12721875000005,"end":466.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.65846875000005,"end":468.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.80159375000005,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.40034375000005,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.45034375000006,"end":480.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.41159375,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.46596875000006,"end":484.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.22096875000005,"end":488.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.93346875000003,"end":493.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.96221875000003,"end":497.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.50159375000004,"end":505.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.19659375000003,"end":506.63534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.32721875000004,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.84596875000005,"end":511.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.84971875,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.51159375,"end":529.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.73721875,"end":561.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.95159375,"end":575.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.8315937500001,"end":575.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.55284375,"end":577.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.38784375,"end":580.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.8684687500001,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.11659375,"end":590.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.58409375,"end":597.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.21596875,"end":598.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.23284375,"end":598.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.35096875,"end":601.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.70909375,"end":606.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.9740937500001,"end":609.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.8090937500001,"end":612.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.1840937500001,"end":618.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.31846875,"end":617.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.6684687500001,"end":624.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.91221875,"end":627.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.88221875,"end":641.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.7365937500001,"end":644.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.1453437499999,"end":647.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.5247187500001,"end":647.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.45284375,"end":657.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.85221875,"end":671.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.6728437500001,"end":679.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.2834687500001,"end":683.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.02534375,"end":692.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.40784375,"end":698.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.8078437500001,"end":699.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.2590937500001,"end":701.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.54159375,"end":704.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.08534375,"end":706.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.22846875,"end":707.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.1228437500001,"end":714.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.2990937500001,"end":714.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.61971875,"end":717.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.5390937500001,"end":722.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.4497187500001,"end":723.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.95159375,"end":729.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.97596875,"end":732.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.64659375,"end":740.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.4809687500001,"end":739.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.84784375,"end":744.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.0959687500001,"end":749.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.3315937500001,"end":749.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.4834687500002,"end":766.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.50034375,"end":750.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.04409375,"end":753.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.0590937500001,"end":766.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.81409375,"end":768.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.5815937500001,"end":770.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.75034375,"end":772.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.8428437500002,"end":774.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.625,"end":7.908,"text":"謝謝主席請氣象署陳署長請氣象署吳昂華記證吳昂華我記證署長我們氣象署裡面這個氣象的預報員有多少人"},{"start":28.868,"end":47.361,"text":"30人 那我們氣象的預報員需不需要有類似像國家考試的資格或者是我們的正式的預報員都是高普考禁用高普考禁用那他跟日本在所謂的氣象預報室的概念有沒有一樣"},{"start":48.538,"end":71.108,"text":"不太一樣因為一個是國家的氣象的官方機關那日本的氣象預報室他其實算是一個民間的考試雖然那個考試事實上是由JMA就是由日本氣象廳授權給一個相關的法人的組織在舉辦考試了解所以對我們的氣象預報員而言能夠上氣象局播報氣象"},{"start":76.971,"end":78.072,"text":"新聞台裡面的氣象播報員他需要什麼資格?"},{"start":108.235,"end":134.186,"text":"對每個新聞台可能不太一樣這裡面很重要一件事情一個是預報一個是播報或是傳播傳播會比較單純一點預報它需要很多很多的背景知識我根據你的預報我再來加以預報或者我加以傳播或者那你怎麼定義它是預報或者它叫傳播基本的定義是這樣子"},{"start":135.265,"end":138.69,"text":"所以你們30個我知道你們30個裡面大家可以自行預報自己認為接下來一個小時會不會下雨"},{"start":150.437,"end":166.211,"text":"是,其實我們有一個預報討論會因為我們是官方單位任何的預報發布都是經過預報討論會出來的結果所以是合一致的,派一個人出去講而已是,並且有審核的程序那這個預報員他們的薪水多少錢"},{"start":169.395,"end":184.864,"text":"我們的預報員就正式人的薪水如果是普考進來的話大概是4萬多那我們最高的預報人員的資深的預報人員他薪水可以到8萬OK大概4萬到8萬他們工作他們工作大概時間長不長"},{"start":189.123,"end":204.087,"text":"對基本上因為我們的預報人員他需要24小時運作所以我們的一個班目前是12小時的班然後之後就是輪替的方式來做那在24小時他們要24小時值班就對了那個我打電話到那個諮詢專線氣象署的諮詢專線是由預報員接我的電話是嗎是所以他們要24小時嗎"},{"start":215.609,"end":244.535,"text":"是那我請那個吳季正你當過你現在還在輪值預報員嗎我還有有時候會輪值你還在輪就對了台風的平常是這台風的時間這是媒體的工作媒體的工作所以你還在輪所以我打電話去有可能你接的目前那個電話我可能接不到但是如果改當到但你接過你接過這個電話對接了好多年好那你接這個電話裡面你覺得這個工作輕不輕鬆不輕鬆但是很有挑戰性也很刺激"},{"start":245.066,"end":271.258,"text":"那你覺得打電話進來的人你的比例而言真的要問氣象的有多少人?比例多高?我覺得不少比例6到8成那當然而且其中包括很多真的很關心天氣的那他打電話進來問的時候我看那個媒體有寫過有播那個什麼唸誦經的啦打電話進來聊天的啦或者anyway你覺得這個比例高不高?"},{"start":272.208,"end":294.981,"text":"這比例其實逐年逐年就是比以前高啦你以前越來越高了我覺得現在社會的社會氛圍的關係好所以你覺得這份薪水4萬多8萬24小時要輪子還要接這些電話你覺得應不應該再把它調升一下你說薪水調升嗎對對當然當然當然所以你也覺得明顯過低對不對"},{"start":297.642,"end":318.29,"text":"我們薪水就是我們公務員的薪資阿對對對對對謝謝謝謝好來署長其實齁對我而言我剛剛做了一個臨時提案就是說氣象對我而言尤其在現代它是產業為什麼我從氣象播報員左手因為氣象我們到底從學訓用"},{"start":321.363,"end":345.914,"text":"如果沒有把人才做好沒有把法令規範好政府在政策上把它當成產業其實這個產業我們一直做不起來你知道台灣我的調查好像只有6家氣象公司嘛韓國大概找我們10年啦他們關注到這個問題所以他們現在大概有幾百家幾十家韓國30家左右啦韓國大概有30家左右"},{"start":347.039,"end":373.439,"text":"那如果我們對於這些什麼叫做播報員他具備什麼樣的條件那他該負責什麼而這些人市場氣象公司他們需要的人才是什麼我覺得氣象局應該有一個統一性的規劃那其實對我而言我覺得沒有產業我們的播報同仁都很辛苦因為他們沒有我們的預報員沒有地方可以跑"},{"start":374.384,"end":397.944,"text":"因為他在外面沒有需求嘛可是如果氣象作為一個產業阿他們就會被 你的薪水這麼低阿他們就會去被挖角這個對氣象播報這個專業阿我認為這個才公平阿那再來這個產業很重要譬如說你知道過去3年阿我當那個這個我現在還是中華職棒會長但過去3年我也是會長"},{"start":399.512,"end":410.681,"text":"我每次跟氣象局最密切的時間是什麼是我們辦重要比賽的時間像我們辦那個中華職棒的明星賽我們的同仁幾乎"},{"start":412.076,"end":433.978,"text":"都要跟我們氣象局那個諮詢專線幾乎每一個小時就要打一通電話因為幾個小時後會不會下雨我們的比賽要不要提早通知球迷今天一定會下雨所以取消或者我們必須球迷來了我們要很清楚的知道是延長一個小時後比賽還是兩個小時後比賽因為這個動輒"},{"start":436.67,"end":455.818,"text":"以中華職棒而言一場比賽動輒都是千萬級的錢在輸贏所以你看為了我們這個我們一定要買保險為什麼不然我們損失實在太驚人了所以我們只好跟民間的保險公司來買天后的保險所以他是產業"},{"start":457.33,"end":474.965,"text":"我剛剛只是講一個規模不是太大千萬級啊你其他的譬如說風電、太陽能各式各樣比我們更大型的這些商業活動他所影響的更是巨大所以氣象不再是過去我們概念上好像"},{"start":475.825,"end":477.166,"text":"美國氣象產業的產值是2100億日本200億、韓國80億、台灣只有3億"},{"start":498.547,"end":511.49,"text":"那不是台灣不需要是因為我們從來沒有好好的把氣象當成一個產業好好的來規劃所以這個署長知道我做一個臨時提案的用意了吧"},{"start":511.949,"end":529.061,"text":"是瞭解啊特別是在我們氣象署成立的時候其實我們做了很多討論那有關促進氣象產業發展這件事情的確也是我們在署成立的非常非常重要的一個工作那在這裡面也包含了我們怎麼樣在氣象法修法"},{"start":529.821,"end":530.001,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":547.1,"end":561.19,"text":"還有一件很重要的事情是我們的觀念我們的產業的觀念就是說有關產業發展其實最重要一件事情是市場其實剛剛委員的指教其實已經談到這件事情那市場的部分其實要靠"},{"start":562.211,"end":590.475,"text":"不僅是政府也靠民間他把這個市場的機會release出來去用運用運用不只是政府機關的相關的預報也包含了民間的預報這部分需要一起來努力對對其實這有機會但是因為源頭因為他的架構的源頭在你比如說你的所有的衛星相關監測天氣變化的設備大概民間公司他的重點在於跟你買這個data然後我來判讀"},{"start":591.673,"end":611.602,"text":"所以他需要什麼人,譬如說我可不可以我成立氣象公司會挖那個5G證過來我的公司那我民間公司我隨便都開比你價格高嘛但你民間沒有產業他永遠就只能待在氣象署啊他沒有地方可以跑啊所以我的意思是說政策先讓氣象公司這個產業"},{"start":613.764,"end":632.923,"text":"讓我們的政策定出這個方向民間才可能投資嘛第二個我投資完我東西要跟誰買我的價格跟你跟國外比起來到底data的價格是高是低然後再來政府有沒有培訓這個人才比如說你政府要不要定證照的制度比如說我們現在就像那個網路啊亂亂亂播報亂報地震亂報這個這個這個氣象"},{"start":637.487,"end":657.021,"text":"那現在不管你是加什麼警工什麼學術討論他就連這句話都會酸你啦你加任何警語他都會酸你啦那你有沒有考慮過他這個產業裡面是不是因為你沒有專業的技術人員你要不要用國家考試來規範什麼人可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":658.401,"end":683.473,"text":"這個道理是這樣,那你做到什麼程度之後國家有這個體系所以我開氣象公司某人開氣象公司他就知道說他會臨時在哪裡不然我現在開個氣象公司人人人什麼叫合格的人才所以這個都是氣象署要整體去做一個規劃主席已經站起來我再問一個問題小問題就好了我覺得那個我們的APP真的應該要強化一下那國家的APP"},{"start":684.173,"end":692.109,"text":"比如說我不知道我都是用我也有下載你們但我都是用我的內建為什麼我用內建很簡單我要知道一小時"},{"start":693.442,"end":713.888,"text":"我等一下去齁只有兩個小時我就會離開所以我不需要知道你三小時後的可是你看你們的都不管降雨不管降雨不管溫度都是三小時啦就三小時一次啦可是你現在隨便免費的啊我那個蘋果手機內建的我都一小時啊"},{"start":714.708,"end":730.798,"text":"一小時後會不會下雨一小時後溫度幾度我們政府做的三小時人家一般的都一小時難怪你的APP很難用當然你還有其他資訊我是說我們對一般小老百姓最重要的事情就這個而已這個可不可以"},{"start":731.294,"end":748.348,"text":"改進一下我們理解齁這個我們其實下一階段就是要做一小時的現在是間隔三小時的資料那未來會做一小時的不要那麼下一個階段聽起來下一個階段不知道要三年五年啦這個就人家都已經搞那麼久了讓他再下一個階段"},{"start":749.269,"end":749.509,"text":"蔡委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"150006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a42495c58e4589aa85d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a6ce6dc580683089465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:45:56 - 11:52:41","影片長度":"00:06:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":405,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:52:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:45:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時46分）謝謝主席。一樣先請署長。"],["主席：請陳署長。"],["廖委員先翔：次長也麻煩一起好了。"],["主席：請次長。"],["廖委員先翔：因為這個可能會有點跨機關的問題。請教一下，常常發生一些國家重大緊急通報事項時會有細胞簡訊，這時候網路上大家常常討論的不是發生什麼事，而是常常有人說我變成國家的邊緣人，對不對？可能發出來之後，大家會討論怎麼我都沒收到，但有人有收到。關於這個問題，要怎麼克服？這可能涉及到通訊的部分，沒關係，誰答都可以。"],["程署長家平：有關PWS的部分，主要是發的criteria，因為它有分成好幾個不同的等級，有所謂國家級的警報……"],["廖委員先翔：對，如果每個人都應該收到，但有人沒收到。"],["程署長家平：是，如果是屬於技術性的問題所以沒收到，可能是基地台的普及還不行，因為我們國家的infra基本上是有強化的，所以可能……"],["廖委員先翔：對，我就是要問這個而已──基地台的普及。要開今天的會議之前，你們好像有先發新聞稿給媒體，對不對？有特別提到一些危險的溪流有跟地方政府配合，當發生河水暴漲的情況時會有預警，會發生河水暴漲的地方其實都在哪些地方？應該都是在荒郊野嶺、深山裡面，這些地方的通訊一般來說常常都非常差，沒有訊號，我們一開始從虎豹潭，現在有19條溪流陸陸續續有跟地方政府合作發緊急訊號，有關這19條危險溪流緊急通知的部分，有去測試過地方訊號到底有沒有嗎？民眾收不收得到？"],["程署長家平：這個部分因為有跟地方政府做相關討論，所以所有identified的19條溪流裡面全部都可以在收到的範圍，當然有些更偏遠的地區還沒有加入，那個部分要慢慢加進來，也就是在地方政府所有可能的危險溪流其實並不只19條，因為目前只有10個縣市參加，這個部分會牽涉到地方政府相關的通訊，還有它是不是能夠收到，所以這個部分是持續在增加的。"],["廖委員先翔：署長，我再確認，潛勢溪流，當你們發細胞簡訊時，只要在溪流周遭就一定會收到，不會因為基地台的不普及而沒有收到訊號，確定嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，我們在做這件事情時，會再沿著溪流沿岸去identify到底有哪些基地台，以及它可以通訊的範圍。"],["廖委員先翔：包括三大電信都有？而不是只有中華電信。"],["程署長家平：是，都有。"],["廖委員先翔：全部的電信公司都有？"],["程署長家平：因為不同電信公司的普及度有時候不太一樣，基本上都有，可是它的普及度會有一點點差異，這個必須要特別在這裡說明一下。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我就是要確認有沒有沒被包含到的？包含地點、包含電信公司。"],["程署長家平：目前這19條溪流的部分，因為我們已經經過事先的討論，它都可以被cover，也就是為什麼我們選這19條作為示範單位或是試作單位，就是要確保所有的資訊，我們稱之為end-to-end，從前端到終端的訊息都能夠傳播，因為這件事情它的反應時間其實是不長的，地震的反應時間非常短，可能是幾秒，颱風的反應時間可能有幾天，可是溪流氾濫的部分，你的反應時間可能是幾分鐘到幾十分鐘。"],["廖委員先翔：如果之後有發現一些地點可能是處在沒有訊號的情況下，我一樣可以找我們的署長來做一個相關的討論，增強它的不管是覆蓋率還是電信公司的部分，都可以依照我們這樣子的需求來建置它的基地台包含普及率在內，是吧？"],["程署長家平：是，這個部分其實我們一直有跟NCC合作，確定這些區域能夠被通知到。"],["廖委員先翔：好！第二點也是有關國家級警報的，就是海嘯啦！因為我的選區在北臺灣，也就是東北角，我想確認一下，在我們的評估中，我們的東北角有沒有可能會發生大型的海嘯？"],["程署長家平：依照過去的歷史紀錄，的確有過發生大型海嘯的紀錄，在1867年，我記得曾發生過大概是高五公尺的海嘯。"],["廖委員先翔：因為海嘯的緩衝時間老實說是比較長一點，對不對？請問我們相關的緊急疏難如何跟地方政府或是其他單位配合？"],["程署長家平：依據災防法的規定，有關海嘯的部分基本上是消防署的任務，所以在這個部分，我們就是跟地方政府和消防署那邊聯繫合作，對於海嘯相關的作為其實已經有identify一個固定的作法。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們這邊就是蒐集訊號，然後將訊息丟給相關的主責單位，再由主責單位來進行人員的疏散？"],["程署長家平：這部分有兩個層次，一個我們稱之為近地海嘯，是因為臺灣這邊地震所產生的海嘯；另外一個是遠地海嘯，遠地海嘯會由太平洋的海嘯中心提供相關的資訊，我們會去評估這個海嘯波到達我們這邊相關的時間以及它的波高來發出不同的警訊。"],["廖委員先翔：所以都有相關的配套措施了，因為我們會有整套的SOP，對不對？那可不可以請主席裁示，會後提供海嘯發布之後怎麼跟其他單位合作的一套SOP作法給我辦公室這邊，好不好？就麻煩我們的程署長一下。謝謝！謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝！廖委員發言完畢。現在請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.56221875,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.59534375,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.67971875,"end":35.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.45971875,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.93596875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.74159375,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.617843750000006,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.085968750000006,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.267218750000005,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.72096875,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.30721875,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.45909375000001,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.07596875,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.37471875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.43096875,"end":116.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.82284375,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.58034375,"end":162.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.66784375,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.28159375,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.68534375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.17784375000002,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.94971875000002,"end":203.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.52721875,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.18471875,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.86784375000002,"end":207.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.41096875000002,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.74409375000002,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.91159375,"end":252.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.42221875,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.05534375,"end":283.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.56471875,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.58159375,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.50971875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.96534375000005,"end":298.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.52846875,"end":299.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.54534375000003,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.10971875,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.02034375,"end":321.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.66409375,"end":331.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.01284375,"end":348.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.57159375000003,"end":356.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.76846875,"end":367.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.41659375,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.96721875000003,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.40909375,"end":400.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.85409375,"end":405.65534375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.568,"end":11.093,"text":"好謝謝主席那一樣先請我們的署長請陳署長那次長也麻煩一起好了請次長因為這可能會有點跨機關的問題請教一下我們"},{"start":15.748,"end":35.473,"text":"常常發生一些國家重大的緊急通報事項的時候會有細胞檢訊嘛對不對那這時候網路上大家常常討論的不是發生什麼事常常是有人會說我變成了國家的邊緣人對不對我們這個可能發出來之後就會大家討論我怎麼都沒收到有人有收到那關於這個問題我們怎麼克服這可能涉及到通訊的部分啦那沒關係誰大家都可以"},{"start":43.019,"end":71.375,"text":"有關PWS的部分主要是發的quartier因為它有分成好幾個不同的等級有所謂國家級的警報如果每個人都應該收到但有人沒收到是那如果是屬於技術型的問題沒有收到它可能是基地台的普及還不行因為我們的基本的國家的infra的這個部分事實上是有強化的對所以我就是在問這一個而已基地台的普及"},{"start":71.795,"end":94.111,"text":"那今天要在這個開這個今天的會議之前我們應該好像有先發新聞稿給媒體嘛對不對有特別提到一些這個危險的溪流有跟地方政府配合當發生可能河水暴漲的情況的時候會有預警嘛對不對那這個情形發生的時候會發生河水暴漲的地方其實都在哪些地方"},{"start":95.607,"end":115.232,"text":"應該都是在荒郊野嶺嘛深山裡面這些地方的通訊一般來說常常都非常的塌沒有訊號那我們從一開始從這個胡寶潭或者是陸陸續續好啦現在有19條的溪流陸陸續續有這個跟地方政府合作嘛就是發緊急的訊號"},{"start":116.892,"end":128.475,"text":"那有關這19條緊急的這個溪流的危險的部分我們有去測試過這些地方的訊號到底有沒有嗎?民眾收不收得到?"},{"start":130.145,"end":159.125,"text":"這個部分因為有跟地方政府做了相關討論所以所有identify的19條溪流裡面全部都可以在收到的範圍當然有一些更偏遠的地區還沒有加入的那個部分要慢慢去加進來也就是說在地方政府裡面所有的可能危險的溪流其實並不只19條因為目前只有10個縣市參加那這個部分會牽涉到這個地方政府他相關的這個通訊還有我們基本的他是不是能夠收到"},{"start":159.545,"end":176.564,"text":"所以這個部分是持續在增加的所以組長就確認潛勢溪流當我們發細胞簡訊的時候只要在我們溪流的周遭就一定會收到不會因為基地台的不普及而沒有收到訊號確定嗎?"},{"start":178.582,"end":203.002,"text":"我們在做這件事情是會在沿著這個溪流連岸去identify到底有哪些集體台包括三大電信都有不是只有中華電信喔是是都有全部的電信公司都有因為不同電信公司它的普及度有時候不太一樣所以基本上都有可是它的普及度"},{"start":204.369,"end":212.636,"text":"會有一點點差異這個必須要特別在這裡稍微說一下所以我就是要確認有沒有沒有被包含到的包含地點包含電信公司"},{"start":215.811,"end":241.431,"text":"目前這19條溪流的部分因為我們已經經過事先的討論它都可以被cover也就是為什麼我們選這19條作為示範單位或是試作單位就是要確保所有的資訊我們稱之為end to end就是從前端到終端它的訊息都能夠傳播因為這件事情它的反應時間其實是不長的反應時間不長地震的反應時間非常短可能是幾秒"},{"start":242.512,"end":259.891,"text":"那颱風的反應時間你可能有幾天可是在七流的這個氾濫的部分你的反應時間可能是幾分鐘到幾十分鐘所以我說之後有發現一些地點他可能是沒有訊號的情況下那我之後就可能會在一樣可以找我們的"},{"start":262.773,"end":282.387,"text":"數檔來做一個相關的討論嘛增強他的cover的這個不管是覆蓋率還是電信公司的部分都可以依照我們這樣子的一個需求來建置他的集體台的一個包含這個這個普及率嘛是吧是這個部分我們其實有跟NCC一直在合作在在確定這些區域能夠被蓋住"},{"start":284.568,"end":284.588,"text":"海嘯"},{"start":299.811,"end":321.386,"text":"按照過去的歷史記錄的確有發生過大型海嘯的記錄在1867年有到5公尺我記得大概是到5公尺的海嘯那我們相關的當然因為海嘯的緩衝時間老實說是比較長一點嘛對不對那我們相關的緊急的疏難那是什麼跟地方政府或其他單位來配合"},{"start":323.194,"end":347.191,"text":"有關海嘯的這個在我們的災防法裡面有關海嘯的這個部分基本上是消防署的任務所以在這個部分我們就是跟地方政府跟消防署那邊去做聯繫合作那對於海嘯相關的作為其實已經有identify一個固定的做法"},{"start":347.631,"end":377.011,"text":"所以我們這邊就是收集訊號然後把這個訊息丟給相關的組織的單位然後再由組織的單位來進行人員的疏散是 有兩個層次一個我們稱之為在近地發生的海嘯是因為台灣這邊地震所產生的海嘯另外一個是遠地的海嘯在遠地海嘯就是會由會由這個太平洋的這個海嘯中心會提供相關的資訊那我們會去評估這個海嘯坡到達我們這邊相關的時間以及它的坡高"},{"start":377.551,"end":377.931,"text":"謝謝廖委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"150005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a4ae4d776d325a8e387ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6892ad2dd8d1590f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:01:10 - 12:11:58","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:11:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:01:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":785,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時1分）謝謝召委安排今天這個專題，請潘部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。剛剛已經有非常多人針對新北國三生案討論機制這個部分，也有非常多面向，從風險管控、學校因應到輔導人力、校安等，我則比較希望從風險來源跟部長討論。我知道你們檢討了非常多，我的辦公室則認為，其實風險的來源有一部分就是教育體系跟司法體系各自為政，結果人不在自己的系統中就不管。當然，司法體系沒辦法兼顧課業，但教育體系輔導人力不足也讓少年、教師、同學、家長目前都有很大的焦慮。","我們整理了看到的資料，從曝險跟觸法少年回歸校園問題中發現，從少觀所後來到安置機構回到學校，其中一定會有轉銜會議，從矯正學校回到學校也會有轉銜會議，這次這個郭生的情況則是從少觀所直接回學校，中間沒有轉銜會議，這是一大問題。當然，剛剛很多委員都講過，有轉銜會議也不能保證少年能夠適應學校。但如果沒有轉銜會議的話，問題一定更大。我想請問部長，針對待了少觀所一段時間返回學校的少年，您是不是同意需要轉銜的機制？"],["潘部長文忠：我贊成。而且我跟委員報告，這一次跨部會、包含跨院討論的重點就在於少調官或少保官對於這些司法少年，除了要了解、調查，最終更要裁決，也就是委員說的，是不是應該安置在什麼地方的判斷，這一段是這次我們跨部會、跨院非常聚焦討論的，也有了共識。"],["范委員雲：部長請先停。我剛聽到您講了社區中介教育，那個部分是教育部要找各縣市、六都等來處理的對不對？可不可以請司法院廳長也上臺一下？司法院講他們要做的是給六都試辦已經上路的保護管束風險管理計畫。這是司法院主導的嘛！那我想請問的是……先請問部長好了，我剛剛研究了一下，對照我們辦公室之前看到的，我有點不清楚這兩者之間的關係，就是社區中介教育跟司法院試辦中的保護管束風險管理計畫。你們要做分類跟風險評估，就是我剛剛所講的這一塊，那這裡面有沒有學校代表在其中？請問司法院謝廳長，那個保護管束風險管理計畫沒有嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：委員是說……"],["范委員雲：你們試辦中的、就是今年2月1日開始試辦到明年的計畫。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，其實從110年開始，我們跟行政院、包含教育部，對於每一個個案其實都會辦理，只要少年在學校上學，學校一定會跟法院，法院也會跟學校，密切了解學校處理學生這部分……"],["范委員雲：所以會有學校代表參與這個風險管理個案的討論嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：會。"],["范委員雲：會喔？"],["謝廳長靜慧：以臺南地院來說，2月1號開始，他們大概每個禮拜就會檢討、逐案評估少年風險因子。如果需要開會，就會通知學校派員來。"],["范委員雲：好，謝廳長，謝謝你。","我想請問潘部長，如果經過這個風險管理計畫評估少年可以回學校，可是學校端覺得還是不行，你們會不會提供社區中介教育，或是如同我剛剛講的，中間是不是還需要一個轉銜機制？我是覺得這裡面好像還是有一個洞。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，針對不到曝險少年或司法少年的部分，原來的教育體系就有高關懷班或是慈輝班跟中途學校合作這個模式。基本上，這個模式的對象比較不以司法少年為主，但這次檢討這個機制時提到，如果有一些經過綜合評估後認定暫時不宜直接回到學校的學生，我們覺得教育部要跟縣市政府合作，要有這樣的做法，確實應該給這些經評估後的曝險少年一個過渡階段，目前我們要努力的就是這樣。"],["范委員雲：部長，因為直接監督的還是教育部，針對剛剛講的那個六都試辦的計畫、你們的社區中介教育與回學校之間的評估，有沒有轉銜機制？目前的轉銜作法夠不夠，是不是能給我辦公室一份報告？因為我覺得這個部分不夠清楚。"],["潘部長文忠：好，委員，可以，我們把這個整理一下，當然司法院試辦計畫的情形就由司法院提供給委員作為參考。"],["范委員雲：沒關係，就你們知道的提供，因為如果你們知道得不夠也是問題啦！"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，我們現在要啟動的整個機制，我覺得這幾個非常關鍵的……比如說少年法庭的少保官和調查官，或即將準備接納、接受學生……，少年原來就是這所學校的學生，我們幾個相關機構應該能夠在這樣的討論過程充分地交換意見。這是不是轉銜會議？我不知道，只是這個會議……"],["范委員雲：不管它是不是叫轉銜，但機制要轉銜，轉銜要有機制。"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們認為在調查過程中，尤其是學校，應該可以更深入了解這樣的少年整個行為的情況如何。"],["范委員雲：就是學校是不是接得起來。"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["范委員雲：針對這部分，就教育部能夠處理的，包含你們跟司法體系的對接接得夠不夠、目前司法院正在發展的試辦計畫跟你們的社區中介教育之間還需要什麼轉銜等，部長多久可以給我辦公室一份報告呢？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為這可能在……"],["范委員雲：正在進行中？"],["潘部長文忠：對，司法院這個方案我讀過，相較於過去，對於這些曝險少年真的有更多人力支持，包含少保官來……"],["范委員雲：是，這個我們很支持。"],["潘部長文忠：要做事後，比如說裁決後的持續追蹤、列管，其實需要時間跟人力啦！"],["范委員雲：的確。"],["潘部長文忠：如果是這樣，教育體系、學校體系跟司法體系就連接得很好。那個中介基地是一個場域啦！也就是說少年可能要幾個月後、評估後才適合回到學校，在人力上，我認為是幾個主管機關非常重要的串接。"],["范委員雲：好，部長還是可以給我一個時間。"],["潘部長文忠：1個月好不好？"],["范委員雲：好，1個月，沒問題，謝謝部長。","我還是要繼續問部長。教育部規劃的社區中介教育基地，我覺得非常重要，請問目前你們認為哪些少年需要進入這個基地？什麼時候離開有沒有規定？一樣的，從這裡回學校是不是有轉銜機制？目前規劃了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這就跟您上述關心的……"],["范委員雲：對，是相關的。"],["潘部長文忠：我們教育單位跟司法體系會有關連性，教育部跟各縣市未來會在3月把方案定下來，5月開始。其實我們當時設定的對象有別於過去屬於中輟孩子或家庭功能較不彰，他不是曝險少年，我們本來就有幾個中途教育措施在，這次這個基地比較是以曝險少年或司法少年為主要對象。在跟民間團體合作這方面，目前三十幾個團體也都是以過去有接觸、協助過曝險少年這種經驗的團體為主。"],["范委員雲：好，沒有關係，針對這部分跟剛剛是一樣的，關於與少年最後回到校園之間，誰應該參與轉銜會議或機制，也請部長在1個月內提供的報告裡一起給我。","因為時間的緣故，我想直接問部長一個相關問題，是剛剛沒有人問的。我們知道觸法與曝險少年之中有一種是性犯罪，也就是涉及性侵這樣的少年。針對相關輔導處遇裡面的每一關，由於性別平等教育法的主管機關是教育部，這裡面的每一關會不會有相關專業人士參與跟進行呢？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，性別平等教育法所處理的大概都是性平事件，但對於委員所提到這類對象的學生，教育部過去也在全國幾個地方，針對涉及性剝削等已經觸法的對象有幾個中途學校。"],["范委員雲：性平三法剛好在上週三八婦女節實施，矯正學校也設置了性平會，那教育部是不是也可以回去檢視一下，少年在不同階段時，相關機制裡是不是都有專業人員一起參與其輔導處置，讓他最後回歸的時候……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該說如果是設有相關防治條例這些措施的學校，目前就是有幾個據點，專門針對這種對象處理。"],["范委員雲：好，相關部分也請在1個月內給我辦公室一份報告好嗎？就是關於性犯罪的部分。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["范委員雲：最後，針對司法院，我非常認同你們目前的人力不足以承擔這麼重要的工作，調查跟保護目前沒有分類、調查官兼保護官也是個問題。我想，我們應該一起爭取鬆綁員額，增加少年調查官跟保護官的人力，讓他們能夠適當分工，所以我也跟司法院講一下。我的發言時間到，就先講到這。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝范委員。","接下來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案共計3案。","請宣讀。","一、","有鑑於少子化衝擊，私立學校被列入專輔學校及停辦件數如骨牌效應出現。對此，學生受教以及教職員工權益務必全力捍衛，但所屬教師轉職等相關事務亦應納入協助，以免顧此失彼！私校退場條例於2022年公布實施後，專輔及停辦學校教師離職轉校之契約、賠償以及離職證明取得等問題叢生，政府有照顧並保護學生、教職員與教師之義務，為避免造成後續問題不斷擴大，應針對私校退場條例以及相關原則規定，進行檢視與補強！","一、私校退場條例上路後，許多私校教師開始參與公立學校教師甄試，打算另謀出路，卻傳出有私校教師遭原校求償違約金十餘萬元，也有公校教甄要求現職教師需提出原校報考同意書或離職證明書。面對少子化衝擊，私校教師遭鉅額賠償與報考障礙阻截，想另謀出路卻困難重重甚至無能為力。","二、少子化後私校師資流動率更加惡化，在職教師紛紛跳船逃難，許多私校為綁住教師，在聘約中設下高額違約金，若有教師申請離職，就以不發給離職證明為手段，迫教師繳交鉅額違約金。","三、教育部應針對私校退場問題，針對列入專輔或停辦學校有關教師聘任契約之離職賠償與轉職證明等約定，訂定賠償失效、離職證明取得保障之合情合理相關原則，提供私校退場學校一體適用。","提案人：林倩綺","連署人：吳春城　　葉元之　　葛如鈞　　柯志恩　　范　雲","二、","鑑於中華足球協會以剝削式的合約，並以恐嚇威逼式說法，要求女足國家隊球員簽訂情事，該協會舉措已嚴重影響國人信任、讓球員心生恐懼的心理壓力，造成女足發展阻力；依據國民體育法第三十三條以及第四十三條規定，體育署應主動介入並進行後續督導考核，讓體育競技及女足發展重回正軌，並找回國人信心！","一、經爆料中華足協剝削選手，還逼迫女足國家隊成員簽訂不平等條約，體育署雖曾從旁了解，但足協仍一意孤行、引發各界譁然。","二、國民體育法第三十三條規定，中央主管機關應每年對特定體育團體輔導、訪視或考核。……考核之項目應包括國家代表隊遴選制度、組織會務運作、會計及財務健全、業務推展績效、民眾參與之規劃，其訂定及執行，應聘請學者專家及民間公正人士參加。","三、國民體育法第四十三條規定，特定體育團體有違反法令、章程或妨害公益情事者……情節重大者，得停止全部或一部之獎勵、補助，撤免其職員，移送人民團體法主管機關廢止許可或命令解散。","四、中華足協雖發表聲明向球員們致歉，決議將作廢合約內容，後續考慮成立專案小組，邀球員、球團代表、女足工會代表及總教練與會討論，提出適合女足國家隊的協議。然而，足協公信力盡失，在民氣可用之際，體育署應積極介入進行督導，以避免再次傷害、造成未來出現更失控局勢！","提案人：林倩綺","連署人：吳春城　　葉元之　　葛如鈞　　萬美玲　　范　雲　　柯志恩","三、","案由：東海國中從民國57年創校到現在，一直是台東學生數規模第二大的國中，但是創校56年來一直都沒有體育館跟大型室內學生活動中心，56年來沒有任何一屆的畢業生是在學校的禮堂參加完畢業典禮走出校園，56年來無數教職員學生殷切期盼能夠容納全校師生的大型室內活動場館，為解決該校此一困境，臺東縣政府積極籌備相關預算，惟該校活動中心興建經費高達1億2千萬元，臺東縣政府已利用花東基金申請7,000萬元補助，仍有5,000萬元的缺口需要中央協助，為維護東海國中師生教育權益，保障學生活動安全，爰提案要求教育部應於一個月內邀集各所屬機關召開會議，研商經費補助事宜。","提案人：黃建賓　　萬美玲　　柯志恩　　羅廷瑋　　葛如鈞"],["主席：針對第一案，提案人林倩綺委員有沒有意見？"],["林委員倩綺：針對第一案，教育部後來有跟我討論通案的……"],["主席：好，那請部長作修正說明。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：可以喔？部長可不可以作一些修正說明？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝主席和各位委員。針對第一案林委員與幾位委員的提案，我們剛才有跟委員報告，可能會作部分文字修正，我說明一下。從說明三的第1行開始，教育部應針對私校退場條例後面改為發函要求各校，至於「針對……」，我們建議刪除。之後是「訂定有關教師聘任契約之離職賠償與轉職證明等約定時，應符合一般法律規定或比例原則（例如教師離職預告超過60日，即不應要求離職賠償或拒絕發給離職證明），提供私立學校一體適用」作為參考。至於詳細文字，如果委員同意，我們再提供給議事組，可以作文字的整理。"],["主席：OK，謝謝，那就修正通過。","關於第二案，提案委員也是林倩綺委員，有沒有意見？"],["林委員倩綺：體育署建議調幾個字，這幾個字我們也同意，就是比較中性一點的寫法。"],["主席：部長是不是也幫我們作一些補充說明？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝主席還有委員。謝謝林委員剛才同意我們對一些文字整理一下。從前段說明開始，修正為「有鑑於中華足球協會以不平等的合約」，後面委員也同意修辭，「並以恐嚇……」就刪除；「要求女足國家隊球員……該協會舉措已」後面那幾個字的「嚴重影響國人信任」刪除；還有「讓球員心生恐懼的心理壓力」中，「恐懼的」那幾個字委員同意刪除。","說明一改為「經爆料中華足協要求」，後面「剝削選手，還逼迫」這幾個字就刪除。然後，說明一第2行「體育署雖曾從旁了解，但足協仍一意孤行。」這幾個字作刪除修正。然後是說明四，因為這件案子足協已經解除合約了，所以有一個字，第1行「決議將」中的「將」字建議刪除，因為事實上做了，這點也是體育署清楚要求足協該這麼做，足協也同意。以上文字修正。"],["主席：就是文字上將情緒性字眼改成中性的文字，林委員說OK？"],["林委員倩綺：是的。"],["主席：好，謝謝，修正後通過。","有關於第三案，提案委員是黃建賓委員。"],["黃委員建賓：是，謝謝主席。主席，這部分我有跟部會討論文字上的修正，要不要請部會說明？"],["主席：好，請部長作相關說明。"],["潘部長文忠：跟主席還有委員報告，謝謝黃委員這項提案。只有一項文字修正，就是最後一行，因為這些要我們一起協調的單位不盡是教育部所屬，所以將「所屬」改成「相關」，其餘我們配合辦理。"],["主席：好，文字修正後通過，謝謝。","雖然已經12點18分，但會議還是繼續進行，也提醒因為已經到了中午時間，請列席委員質詢堅守5分鐘，不要超過，可以嗎？","請第14位的鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.41034375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.00284375000001,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.52596875,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.96471875,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.66909375,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.02784375000002,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.03159375,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.06534375,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.32596875000002,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.26909375000002,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.67784375000002,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.33534375000002,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.85284375,"end":222.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.84846875000002,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.63284375,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.38534375,"end":289.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.33034375000003,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.24159375000002,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.96659375000002,"end":250.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.97409375,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.65721875,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.90159375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.41971875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.40784375000004,"end":288.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.47534375000004,"end":288.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.61034375,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.82971875000004,"end":288.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.57221875,"end":296.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.40659375,"end":320.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.44534375,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.63471875000005,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.79471875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.94221875,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.91221875,"end":331.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.97909375,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.54846875000004,"end":333.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.54721875,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.79409375,"end":354.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.96284375000005,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.99659375000005,"end":359.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.03034375000004,"end":355.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.52784375000005,"end":363.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.14346875,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.76284375,"end":365.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.27284375000005,"end":393.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.62284375,"end":371.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.55096875000004,"end":372.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.70346875,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.52596875,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.74471875,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.79471875,"end":404.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.84534375000004,"end":404.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.86221875,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.89971875000003,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.16034375000004,"end":414.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.78034375000004,"end":416.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.87159375000005,"end":426.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.63409375000003,"end":433.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.83659375,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.57909375,"end":458.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.92909375000005,"end":437.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.19159375000004,"end":502.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.30096875000004,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.49909375000004,"end":461.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.93721875000006,"end":464.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.39534375000005,"end":476.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.99221875,"end":491.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.04971875,"end":501.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.95659375,"end":545.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.3928437500001,"end":546.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.43909375,"end":565.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.2265937500001,"end":557.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.71471875,"end":570.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.08534375,"end":570.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.49034375,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.8953437499999,"end":593.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.1240937499999,"end":605.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.74409375,"end":594.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.5447187500001,"end":601.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.4890937499999,"end":605.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.55659375,"end":605.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.7084687500001,"end":609.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.16784375,"end":609.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.60659375,"end":613.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.9015937500001,"end":612.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.26846875,"end":613.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0278437500001,"end":646.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.1797187500001,"end":614.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.79096875,"end":648.14909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.381,"end":25.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":26.801,"end":52.235,"text":"認為其實風險的來源有一個部分就是教育體系跟司法體系各自為政只要人不在自己的系統中就不管當然司法體系沒辦法兼顧課業教育體系輔導人力的不足讓少年教師同學家長目前都有很大的焦慮我們整理了從我們看到的資料當中就是這個暴險跟觸法少年回歸校園的問題中"},{"start":54.036,"end":54.196,"text":"發言委員：范雲"},{"start":69.053,"end":72.475,"text":"請問部長針對待了少關所一段時間返回學校的少年您是不是同意需要轉弦的機制"},{"start":99.793,"end":127.105,"text":"我贊成,而且我跟委員報告這次也是我們幾個跨部會包括跨院的討論的一個重點就是在於我們這個少教官或少保官對於這些司法少年要做這個瞭解所謂的調查跟要做最終要裁決就是委員說是不是應該安置在什麼地方的判斷這一段是我們這次幾個跨部會、跨院非常聚焦討論有的共識"},{"start":128.726,"end":129.347,"text":"司法院主導的保護管束風險管理計劃"},{"start":153.55,"end":179.612,"text":"那我想請問的是就是我想請問先請部長好了我剛研究了一下就是說我們辦公室之前看到有點不清楚這兩個之間的關係社區中介教育跟司法院事辦中的保護管束風險管理計畫那你們要做分類跟風險評估就是我剛所講這一塊那這裡面有沒有學校的代表在裡面那個請問司法院的廳長謝廳長"},{"start":182.062,"end":203.744,"text":"那個保護管束風險管理計畫沒有你說委員是說你們事辦中的就是今年2月1號開始事辦到明年的跟委員報告其實從110年開始我們跟行政院包含教育部每個個案其實都會只要少年在學校上學那學校一定會跟法院法院也會跟學校"},{"start":204.264,"end":224.834,"text":"但會密切的去了解學校在處理學生的問題之下所以會有學校的代表參與這個風險管理的個案的討論嗎?會,比如說舉例來說以台南地院來說因為1號開始大概每個禮拜他們大概就會去檢討主案的去評估少年風險因子那如果說要開會就會通知學校派員來"},{"start":225.734,"end":226.194,"text":"我有跟委員報告"},{"start":245.279,"end":252.986,"text":"我們原來對不到叫做暴險少年或司法少年的這部分原來的教育體系就有關高關懷班或資源班那個辭彙班跟中途學校合作的這種模式啦那這個模式基本上的對象"},{"start":266.858,"end":266.878,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":289.58,"end":289.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":310.947,"end":311.227,"text":"司法院議員"},{"start":331.834,"end":334.276,"text":"現在整個要啟動這個機制我覺得這幾個非常關鍵的比如說我們少年法庭的少保官或調查官或我們要即將準備要接受這個學生或原來就是這個學校的學生然後我們幾個相關的機構應該在這樣的討論過程能夠有充分的交換意見"},{"start":356.149,"end":356.47,"text":"學校接得起來嗎"},{"start":373.11,"end":392.683,"text":"這部分我想教育部就教育部這邊能夠處理的那到底是不是就是說你們跟司法體系的這個對接接的夠不夠目前司法院正在發展的事辦計畫跟你們這個社區中介教育之間要不要再有怎麼樣轉型的部分那部長多久可以給我辦公室一個報告呢"},{"start":395.401,"end":409.508,"text":"因為這個可能在進行中因為司法院這個我讀過這個方案是真的跟過去來講是一個更能夠對於這些暴險少年當然也要支持有更多的人力少保官來因為那個到事後比如裁決後的持續追蹤列管"},{"start":414.17,"end":425.143,"text":"其實這個需要時間跟人力那如果是這樣我覺得教育體系、學校體系跟我們司法體系它就連接得很好那個中介基地是一個場域就是說它可能要幾個月後評估後才適合回到學校但是這個人力上的幾個主管機關我認為是一個非常重要的串接"},{"start":434.639,"end":437,"text":"教育部規劃的社區中介教育基地非常重要請問目前你們對於哪些少年需要進入這個基地什麼時候離開有沒有規定這個本身回學校的時候是不是有轉嫌機制"},{"start":458.432,"end":479.428,"text":"這個就跟您上面所關心的我們教育單位跟司法體系會有關聯性的這個教育部跟各縣市未來在3月這個方案定下來5月開始這個其實我們當時設定的對象是有別於過去屬於中輟孩子或家庭功能比較不彰的他不是暴險少年"},{"start":481.629,"end":498.906,"text":"其實我們本來就有幾個中途的教育的措施在那這一次這個基地比較是撫顯少年或司法少年為主要的所以在跟民間團體合作的這方面目前三十幾個團體也都是過去有接觸協助過撫顯少年的這種經驗的團體為主"},{"start":502.97,"end":510.937,"text":"那沒有關係喔那針對這個部分那跟剛剛是一樣的齁那關於就是說最後回到校園之間喔怎麼樣誰應該參與轉弦的會議或機制也請那個部長那個一個月報告裡面一起給我喔那因為時間的緣故喔我想直接問部長一個相關的問題剛剛並沒有人問的喔"},{"start":525.208,"end":542.743,"text":"因為我們知道這裡面的觸法跟暴嫌少年其中有一種是性犯罪就是性侵的據說這樣子的一個少年那相關的輔導處理裡面他的每一關因為性媒體的教育法主管機關是教育部那這裡面的每一關會不會有相關的專業人士參與跟進行呢?"},{"start":547.521,"end":569.692,"text":"委員如果因為性別平等教育法所處理的大概都是跟這些性別事件但是委員所提到這一類對象的學生過去教育部也在全國有幾個地方就是有關屬於性剝削等的已經是處罰的了他也有幾個中途學校"},{"start":570.953,"end":587.372,"text":"因為我們上週《性平法》、《三法》剛好三八婦女節實施,矯正學校我們也設置了性平會那教育部是不是也可以回去檢視一下那少年在不同的階段相關的機制裡面是不是都有專業的人員一起參與他的輔導處置"},{"start":591.477,"end":593.499,"text":"主委應該說目前已經經過防治條例的這些措施之後的學校目前就是有幾個據點以這個對象為一個處理"},{"start":609.736,"end":633.55,"text":"那相關的這部分也給我辦公室一個月一個報告好嗎這個關於這個性犯罪的部分那最後呢我想針對司法院的部分我非常認同就是你們目前的人力不足以承擔這麼重要的工作那調查跟保護目前沒有分類調查官兼保護官也是個問題那我想我們應該要一起爭取鬆綁員額能夠增加少年調查官跟保護官的人力讓他們能夠適當的分工"},{"start":639.674,"end":639.835,"text":"謝謝范委員"}]}},{"id":"150004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab3638a1939fdff293919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a60d930ff7604c75255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:54:33 - 12:06:20","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":707,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:54:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時54分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，先請一下司法院的黃副秘書長。"],["主席：請副秘書長上台。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：副秘書長好。最近我看到司法院大法官說要對廢死的事情進行辯論。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候要辯論？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該4月23號辯論。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有結果？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：辯論之後可能要幾個月吧！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會對於這個事情做出釋憲？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該……因為這個要等他們辯論之後再訂定，所以現在還不能講確切的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：按照過去的時間表，差不多……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該會有幾個月……"],["賴委員士葆：今年年底可能嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可能7、8月左右吧！"],["賴委員士葆：年底以前可以……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個應該……"],["賴委員士葆：應該會解釋出來？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我不是大法官，所以我也沒有參與這個東西，我只能講是會有幾個月。"],["賴委員士葆：我有一個拜託，請你告訴大法官。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：超過八成以上的臺灣老百姓是反對廢死的，廢死只有執政黨這邊，特別是蔡總統一味在推動，大法官又是他任命的，外界就很擔心。我請你告訴大法官，或者最少告訴院長，許宗力，對嘛！告訴他，他如果釋憲的結果是廢死的話，一定引起民眾大幅的反彈，特別最近虐童案的事件，刑法第二百八十六條我要修法，我要提案啊！改為死刑。現在最高就無期徒刑而已，你們現在都是處處在替加害者在講他的人權，那個受害者呢？這樣子兒童這麼的一個innocent，然後被這樣弄死了。一想到這個心會痛啊！然後居然你們要大法官為這個事情說死刑要不要把它廢掉喔！人權喔！這些殺人犯都要人權喔！我就是請你來，上來就告訴你，這也是多數委員的一個心聲、多數老百姓的心聲，請你務必告訴司法院這些大法官們、偉大的大法官。老實講，現在有37位，法務部長一起來。現在有37位沒有執行嘛！對不對？37、38？"],["蔡部長清祥：還沒有執行。"],["賴委員士葆：37嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：37。"],["賴委員士葆：37啊！就是法務部跟司法院兩個串通起來，就一直把它延、延、延！你搞個要經過憲法法庭，這莫名其妙！原來就可以執行，那個辦法是在……那個不是法律啦！這個是你的執行辦法裡面，你的一個行政命令而已，你就給他開一條路。哎唷！你們都去這裡喔！非常上訴、再上訴，然後走憲法法庭。你指他一條路，大家都走這條路，所以……"],["蔡部長清祥：不過，跟委員說明，那個辦法是我還沒有上任之前就已經……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，你可以改啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：這是它有一個救濟辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：你可以改啊！蔡部長，你外面的形象是不錯的，評價也不錯的，你不要因為這樣子葬送你一輩子的那種……我不知道520之後你會不會續任啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有，我們看司法院憲法法庭判決確定後，該改我們就會改。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼憲法法庭？你們就該改了！"],["蔡部長清祥：對，該改就會改。"],["賴委員士葆：這個不是法律！這個已經拖這麼久了，37、38個重大惡行的……"],["蔡部長清祥：其實改了也是不溯及既往啊！對這37位來講，他還是要遵守原來的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：哪有那麼奇怪！規定這個拿掉就沒有那個憲法法庭的事情了啊！這樣就讓他有個憲法法庭可以走，這裡面純粹就是要……"],["蔡部長清祥：該給的救濟機會，我們還是要給他。"],["賴委員士葆：先讓我講完。"],["蔡部長清祥：救濟程序結束以後……"],["賴委員士葆：先讓我講完。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們該怎麼做就怎麼做。"],["賴委員士葆：先讓我講完可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講話。整個來講，法務部、司法院通通就在執行蔡英文以降民進黨的mindset，就是要廢死。全民反對，八成以上反對。這一次賴清德得票，只有鞏固基本盤40%，這是原因之一。副秘書長請回。部長老實講你以前的形象都不錯，但是這一次選舉的時候，我對你大大地失望！"],["蔡部長清祥：我還是一貫維持……"],["賴委員士葆：不要講話！我沒有講，你先不要講！檢察官在選前大動作，約談去過大陸的臺北市里長40幾個，文山區的里長有22個里長被約談了。早上一大早7點敲門啊！帶走，到下午4點才放回來，這有什麼人權？7點進去啊！4點出來啊！被約談了以後，基本上沒辦法申請良民證啊！然後里長不能參加義消。有一個里長，木柵分隊張里長，不要講他的名字，你看它裡面寫什麼。刑事資料沒有顯示該案偵結判決結果，所以不給他參加義消。我要做義工，我做義消，就是因為你們檢察官給人家約談了，到現在吊在半空中，他良民證不能申請，他民防不能參加，義消不能參加，這是什麼跟什麼！部長啊！這個反滲透法是一部惡法，反滲透法裡面，比如說何建華不是拿中共的錢嗎？老共的錢嗎？辦了3年，鏘鏘哐哐地，還判無罪！這個本來它就是思想的一個東西，這個根本就不夠具體。我們的反滲透法講什麼？境外勢力指示、委託或資助，什麼叫「指示」？什麼叫「委託」？什麼叫「資助」？","結果更扯的，部長，我說給你聽哦！我在國會殿堂，我負責任講出來，我們22個文山的里長被約談，檢察官都問同一個問題，都問同一個問題喔！當然都告訴他說問你的不能講，可是事關我，當然要跟我講！問他一個問題說，你們去大陸接受招待，大陸有沒有指示你們說要支持賴士葆？就點名賴士葆耶！就點名賴士葆耶！22個通通都問同一個問題，其他的……但是有一個中心的問題都一樣。第二個，問某一個里長說：為什麼賴士葆的造勢你跑第一個上去？我們的里長都很聰明，腦筋很靈光，他說我是國民黨籍的，我當然支持賴士葆啊！這樣被折磨，從7點折磨到下午4點，到現在什麼也沒有，pending在那裡，不能申請良民證，不能去當義消，不能去參加民防工作。部長啊！你檢察官什麼心態？所以難怪九成左右的臺灣老百姓認為政治影響檢察官辦案，這個是最好的例子啊！所以這一次的2024年，法務部的檢察官、法務部介選非常嚴重！"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有這回事啊！"],["賴委員士葆：非常嚴重！絕對嚴重！絕對介選！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是這樣，不能這樣解讀啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不是，那到現在為止，這個案子呢？案子結果呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我會叫他儘快來結案，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：要結案啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：他是有犯罪嫌疑才會被約談……"],["賴委員士葆：有犯罪嫌疑？"],["蔡部長清祥：約談也不代表說是構成犯罪啦！"],["賴委員士葆：好好笑的事情！我講給你聽。他說去什麼江南，5月，然後1萬5,000元太便宜。好幾個里長拿給他說：你看！網路有1萬1,000元的，有9,000元的，就只有拿這個說我的團費太低，我可能接受資助，然後把省下來的錢支持賴士葆。這個樣子啊！支持國民黨的候選人，這個邏輯是這樣邏輯，這個不是政治辦案，什麼才是政治辦案？這個赤裸裸地介入政治太深、介入選舉太深。"],["蔡部長清祥：不是這樣解讀啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我為什麼今天一定要來這裡跟你質詢？我最近就一直接到里長跟我這樣講，他們做很多事情不能做，就是會卡在這裡！"],["蔡部長清祥：我會要求他們儘快結案。"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？你們趕快給它結案……"],["蔡部長清祥：有就有，沒有就沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：而且，我再最後一句話。當初看到統促黨的何建華，他還拿了老共的錢，就起訴吧！判無罪耶！我不知道這個案子你們還要上訴嗎？你們還要不要上訴？"],["蔡部長清祥：要檢察官來判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：他決定沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得。如果委員要知道，我來幫忙了解。"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有要知道這個事情，我比較關心我們那些里長！20幾個里長現在吊在半空中，然後……"],["蔡部長清祥：這個我可以要求他儘快把它釐清。"],["賴委員士葆：這個道地就是政治辦案，我覺得很悲哀啊！蔡清祥部長，如果你520之後沒有辦法再續任，我跟你講，你的名字，人家就會掛在那裡，就是在2024的大選之前強力介入……"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：去約談里長……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有這回事啦！"],["賴委員士葆：就已經有啦！全國都有！臺北市40幾個……"],["蔡部長清祥：那也不是我下令的啊！我也不可能這樣下令啊！"],["賴委員士葆：不管怎麼樣，這個帳算你身上。你看這個，我們的檢察官，請問你現在定罪率多高？上訴以後。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們所有的定罪率是95%以上。"],["賴委員士葆：95%以上？國安法或者國安機密相關的定罪率多高？你知道嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：也不會太低。"],["賴委員士葆：六成定罪，國安法。"],["蔡部長清祥：不只啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你Google一下嘛！違反國家機密，三成左右。檢察官就亂起訴啊！然後你們家的事情！一起訴，這個人就垮了一半耶！真的檢察官起訴要很慎重……"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我一直都要求要慎重。"],["賴委員士葆：日本的檢察官起訴定罪率99.9%。可是我們在國安部分起訴的定罪率非常地低，非常地低！部長，你好好去關心一下，特別剛剛有提到的，趕快放了這些沒事的里長，把人家牽拖成這樣。真的！要加入義消，不能加入義消……"],["蔡部長清祥：好啦！這點我絕對會……"],["賴委員士葆：加入民防，不能加入民防，莫名其妙！良民證也沒有，因為有個案子在那裡！這個東西啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：這點我會要求要儘快結案。"],["賴委員士葆：檢察官為政治服務到這樣的程度，實在很悲哀！"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：接下來請吳宗憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.72034375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.297843750000002,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.52971875,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.64721875,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.13221875,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.49471875,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.511593750000003,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.570343750000003,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.16034375,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.37096875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.50596875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":41.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.31159375,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.57721875,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.88909375,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.67784375,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.689718750000004,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.49534375,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.91221875,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.92909375,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.74721875,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.907218750000006,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.28659375000001,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":67.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.61534375000001,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.45909375000001,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.04971875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.17971875,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.03596875000001,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.88784375,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.59221875,"end":82.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.17409375000001,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.64221875000001,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.71784375,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.31221875,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.94471875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.69534375,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.41221875000001,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.04471875,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.77846875,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.76971875000001,"end":106.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.90846875000001,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.32159375,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.73909375000001,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.84846875000001,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.00846875,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.32471875,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.38346875,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.50534375000001,"end":124.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.48409375000001,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.47096875000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.24284375000002,"end":133.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.82846875,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.67221875,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.28346875,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.94096875,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.20659375,"end":146.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.45096875000002,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.01596875,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.63596875000002,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.88471875000002,"end":154.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.10784375,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.01034375,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.18721875,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.04784375,"end":163.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.95471875,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.63784375,"end":167.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.13971875000001,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.35471875000002,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.36284375000002,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.01221875000002,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.30221875,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.88409375,"end":184.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.96409375000002,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.20034375,"end":185.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.30159375000002,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.82471875000002,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.54596875000001,"end":193.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.21534375000002,"end":216.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.76096875000002,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.00096875000003,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.08096875,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.70534375000003,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.53221875000003,"end":223.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.66284375,"end":230.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.88096875000002,"end":231.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.96096875,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.35284375,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.45409375000003,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":238.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.89659375000002,"end":239.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.25096875000003,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.26346875000002,"end":241.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.90034375000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.26284375,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.85721875000002,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.99159375000002,"end":261.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.29409375,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.43721875,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.31846875,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.53346875,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.56721875,"end":268.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.00596875,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.02284375,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.03971875,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.67659375,"end":277.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.74284375,"end":278.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.36284375,"end":281.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.96159375,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.88971875000004,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.64471875000004,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.58534375,"end":288.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.03221875,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.50034375,"end":291.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.30159375,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.97221875,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.37721875,"end":296.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.86221875,"end":298.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.87034375,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.80221875,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.81909375000004,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.92034375000003,"end":303.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.93659375000004,"end":311.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.08346875,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.71596875,"end":316.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.46659375,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.47909375,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.74471875,"end":320.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.31409375000004,"end":321.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.49534375,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.49096875000004,"end":324.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.00534375,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.54096875000005,"end":328.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.04284375000003,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.10596875000005,"end":330.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.63721875000005,"end":333.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.36284375,"end":334.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.05034375,"end":337.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.23971875,"end":338.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.55971875,"end":345.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.71096875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.07721875000004,"end":354.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.49034375,"end":354.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.24971875,"end":357.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.73034375000003,"end":360.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.70034375,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.80971875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.59846875000005,"end":364.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.77971875000003,"end":368.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.30659375000005,"end":370.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.82534375,"end":371.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.27659375,"end":372.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.98534375,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.92159375,"end":377.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.87909375000004,"end":379.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.95471875000004,"end":384.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.00034375,"end":385.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.58659375,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.51471875000004,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.26971875000004,"end":390.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.93596875000003,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.99471875,"end":394.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.19284375,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.76659375,"end":396.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.64409375,"end":400.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.11596875000004,"end":402.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.49971875,"end":404.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.08159375,"end":407.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.22471875,"end":408.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":410.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.00471875000005,"end":413.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.27846875,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.14721875000004,"end":418.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.86409375000005,"end":421.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.49659375000005,"end":424.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.64784375000005,"end":427.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.99346875000003,"end":431.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.14471875000004,"end":434.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.40596875000006,"end":436.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.92471875,"end":438.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.28721875,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.05909375000005,"end":443.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.80971875,"end":444.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.32846875,"end":447.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.74159375000005,"end":448.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.56409375000004,"end":450.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.96471875000003,"end":453.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.03159375,"end":456.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.87096875000003,"end":457.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.15346875,"end":460.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.32159375000003,"end":465.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.01721875000004,"end":466.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.82721875000004,"end":468.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.39221875000004,"end":472.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.59846875000005,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.07909375,"end":475.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.49659375000005,"end":477.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.13346875,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.13721875000005,"end":485.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.21659375,"end":493.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.70909375,"end":496.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.91159375,"end":494.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.03784375000004,"end":498.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.99534375,"end":499.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.27346875,"end":500.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.29034375000003,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.32409375000003,"end":508.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.31534375,"end":503.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.37409375000004,"end":507.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.95159375000003,"end":507.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.00221875000005,"end":511.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.45784375000005,"end":508.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.3728437500001,"end":512.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.14909375,"end":514.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.70159375,"end":516.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.77721875,"end":518.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.49846875,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.15659375,"end":522.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.8859687500001,"end":524.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.64096875,"end":525.0122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.34971875,"end":527.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.62784375,"end":533.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.47909375,"end":538.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.2547187499999,"end":544.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.8234687500001,"end":546.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.8315937500001,"end":548.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.9240937500001,"end":550.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.7465937500001,"end":552.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.32846875,"end":555.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.9440937500001,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.88909375,"end":557.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.4797187500001,"end":559.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.40346875,"end":560.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.5678437500001,"end":561.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4240937500001,"end":562.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.5715937500001,"end":564.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.60096875,"end":566.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.9128437500001,"end":568.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.8703437500001,"end":570.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.9965937500001,"end":571.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.2959687499999,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.5359687499999,"end":576.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.96596875,"end":579.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.63221875,"end":581.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.2353437500001,"end":582.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.9397187500001,"end":586.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.67346875,"end":592.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.17034375,"end":593.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.2378437500001,"end":595.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7734687500001,"end":599.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.8190937500001,"end":601.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.75971875,"end":604.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.61971875,"end":608.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.20159375,"end":609.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.77534375,"end":612.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.6609687499999,"end":613.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.0109687500001,"end":614.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.39909375,"end":618.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.52971875,"end":616.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.8628437500001,"end":617.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.9428437500001,"end":619.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.34784375,"end":619.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.9509687500001,"end":619.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.18721875,"end":621.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.87471875,"end":623.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.1697187500001,"end":624.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.7434687500001,"end":625.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.32534375,"end":630.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.68346875,"end":631.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.42596875,"end":631.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.4553437500001,"end":635.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.8134687500001,"end":635.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.8303437500001,"end":641.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.8884687500001,"end":642.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.1203437500001,"end":647.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.17909375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.39784375,"end":650.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.7097187500001,"end":652.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.36346875,"end":653.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.5828437499999,"end":655.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.55721875,"end":656.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.8059687500001,"end":659.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.64096875,"end":663.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.0203437499999,"end":663.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9778437500001,"end":664.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.31096875,"end":669.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.8503437500001,"end":671.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.77409375,"end":676.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.54534375,"end":679.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.7390937499999,"end":680.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.4140937500001,"end":680.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.34221875,"end":682.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.5359687499999,"end":684.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.13909375,"end":695.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.2522187500001,"end":691.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.10784375,"end":697.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.3103437500001,"end":699.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.76159375,"end":698.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.74034375,"end":701.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.98409375,"end":705.79409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.271,"end":27.556,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進先請一下司法院的黃副秘書長請副秘書長上台你好秘書長好"},{"start":29.934,"end":40.923,"text":"最近我看到司法院在大法官說要對Face的事情進行辯論,什麼時候會有辯論?什麼時候會有結果?"},{"start":45.726,"end":46.588,"text":"按照過去時間表差不多"},{"start":60.799,"end":63.181,"text":"超過八成以上的臺灣老百姓是反對FACE"},{"start":86.809,"end":115.841,"text":"Face只有執政黨這邊特別是蔡總統也會再推動那大法官又是他任命的外界就很擔心我請你告訴大法官或者最少告訴院長徐中立嘛是吧對嘛告訴他他如果事先的結果是Face的話一定引起民眾大幅的反彈"},{"start":117.045,"end":141.05,"text":"特別在最近 滅統亨的事件刑保286條 我就把它修法 我要提案啊改為死刑現在最高就無舉徒刑而已你們現在都是處處在替加害者在講他的人權 那個受害者咧這樣子兒童這麼的一個innocent然後被這樣弄死了"},{"start":142.364,"end":170.475,"text":"想到這個心會痛啊然後居然你們要大法官為這個事情說哎喲 死刑要不要把它廢掉喔喔 人權喔這些 這些傻人犯罪的人權喔我就是請你來上來就告訴你這是多數委員的一個心聲多數老百姓的心聲請他務必 請你務必要告訴司法院這些大法官們偉大的大法官"},{"start":172.051,"end":196,"text":"老實講現在有37位沒有來來來法務部長一起來現在有37位沒有執行嗎對不對37、38還沒有執行37嘛3737啊就是法務部跟司法院兩個串通起來就一直把它延延延你搞到經過憲法法庭"},{"start":197.407,"end":220.515,"text":"這莫名其妙 原來就可以執行 那個辦法實在 那個不是法律啊 經過這個是你的執行辦法裡面 你的一個行政命令而已 你就給他開一條路 哎喲你都去這喔 非常上訴 再上訴 然後呢 走憲法法庭 你只給他一條路 大家都走這條路 報告委員說明那個辦法是我還沒有上任之前就已經 我知道你可以改啊"},{"start":221.564,"end":239.638,"text":"那這是他有一個救急報告．你可以改啊 蔡部長你外面的形象是不錯的 評價也不錯的你不要因為這樣子 葬送你一輩子的那種那種我不知道五八零之後你會不會繼續拒認了我們看了 司法院憲法法庭他判決 該改我們就會改你裡面就該改了對 該改就會改這個不是法律"},{"start":244.295,"end":250.958,"text":"這個已經拖這麼久了,37、38個最大、中大、二級的那即時改了也是個溯及既往阿對這37位來講,他還是要遵守原來的規定阿你就規定這個拿掉就沒有那個憲法法庭的事情了阿他現在一直督,就讓他有個憲法法庭走這裡面純粹就是要該給的救濟機會我們還是要先讓我講完救濟程序結束以後,我們該怎麼做就怎麼做先讓我講完可以嗎,你不要講話"},{"start":269.744,"end":290.841,"text":"整個來講法務部、司法院通通就在執行蔡英文以降民進黨的Mindset就是要Face全民反對,八成以上反對這一次賴清德得票只有鞏固基本法40%這是原因之一好,那個副秘書長請回了"},{"start":293.362,"end":305.891,"text":"部長啊是老實講你以前的形象都不錯但是這次選舉的時候我對你大大的失望我還是一貫無恥來來來不要講話我沒講你先不要講喔檢察官在選前大動作約談去過大陸的里長台北市里長40幾個文山區的里長有22個里長被約談了早上一大早7點"},{"start":321.348,"end":345.597,"text":"敲門啊 帶走 到下午4點再放回來這有什麼人權 7點進去啊 4點出來啊這個 被約談了以後 基本上沒辦法申請良民證了然後里長不能參加議銷 來 有一個里長木柵分隊張里長 不要講他的名字"},{"start":346.772,"end":371,"text":"你看 它裡面寫什麼 刑事資料沒有顯示該案偵解判決結果 所以不給他參加議銷我要做義工 我做議銷 就是因為你們檢察官給人家約談了 到現在掉在半空中他良民證不能申請 他民防不能參加 議銷不能參加這是什麼跟什麼啊 部長啊"},{"start":373.061,"end":390.328,"text":"這個反滲透法是一部惡法反滲透法裡面比如說何建華不是拿中共的錢嗎老共的錢嗎辦了三年輕輕鬆鬆的還判無罪這個東西本來他就是本來他就是一個"},{"start":392.08,"end":415.56,"text":"思想的一個東西 這個根本就不夠具體我們的反省動畫講什麼 境外勢力只是委託或支柱什麼叫指示 什麼叫委託 什麼叫支柱結果更扯的 不能夠這樣聽喔我在國會殿堂 我負責任講出來我們22個文山隊里長被約談檢查官都問同一個問題 都問同一個問題喔"},{"start":420.015,"end":437.756,"text":"當然都告訴他說問你的不能講可是事關我當然要跟我講啊問他一個問題說你們去大陸接受招待大陸有沒有指示你們說要支持賴士葆這平民賴士葆欸"},{"start":439.315,"end":460.491,"text":"就點名賴士葆欸22個通通問同一個問題其他的但是有一個中心的問題都一樣然後載過來第二個問某一個里長說為什麼賴士葆的肇事你跑第一個上去我們的里長都很聰明啊腦筋很靈光啊他說我是國民黨籍我當然支持賴士葆啊"},{"start":462.366,"end":473.628,"text":"昨天被折磨 從7點折磨到下午4點到現在 什麼也沒有Pending在那裡不能申請良民證 不能去當預銷 不能去參加民訪工作"},{"start":475.134,"end":492.809,"text":"部長 檢察官什麼心態啊所以難怪九成左右的老百姓臺灣老百姓認為政治影響檢察官方案這是最好的例子啊所以這一次的2024年法務部的檢察官法務部屆選非常嚴重"},{"start":495.011,"end":510.33,"text":"非常嚴重!絕對嚴重!絕對絕對嚴重!不是!不能這樣解讀了!那你到現在為止這個案子呢?那我要求他盡快來結案!要結案啦!他是有犯罪嫌疑才會被約談!約談也不代表說他是構成犯罪啦!好好笑的事情!來!我給你!跟你講一個問題!"},{"start":512.432,"end":533.177,"text":"他說去什麼江南五月然後一萬五太便宜里長好幾個里長拿給他你看網路有一萬一的有九千的就只有拿這個說我的團費太低我可能接受資助然後把剩下的錢來支持賴士葆這個樣子啦支持國民黨的候選人這個邏輯是這樣邏輯這個不是政治法案什麼才是政治法案"},{"start":539.558,"end":552.176,"text":"這個赤裸裸的介入政治太深介入選舉太深我最近為什麼今天我為什麼今天一定要來法務部這裡來跟你質詢我最近就一直接到里長跟我這樣講"},{"start":553.41,"end":574.022,"text":"他們做很多事情不能做,就是卡在這裡我會要求他們盡快結案,我就有,沒有就沒有而且,而且,我再最後一句話你看那個,當初看到統促黨的何建華他還拿了老公的錢,起訴,起訴,起訴法,欸,判無罪啊或者這個案子還要,你們還要上訴嗎?你們還要不要上訴?檢察官來判斷他,他決定沒有?我不曉得"},{"start":583.973,"end":604.515,"text":"如果委員要知道我來幫忙了解我沒有要知道這個事情我比較關心是我們那些里長二十幾個里長現在吊在辦公室這個我可以要求他盡快整個道地這個道地就是政治辦案我覺得很悲哀啊蔡清祥部長你的如果你無法領之後沒有辦法再續任"},{"start":606.667,"end":625.671,"text":"我跟你講你的名字人家就掛在那裡就是在2024的大選之前強力介入不會啦去約談里長沒有這回事就已經有啦就全國都有那也不是我下令的啊我也不可能這樣下令啊不管怎麼樣這個這樣送你身上這個這個你看喔我們檢察官請問你現在定罪率多高上訴以後"},{"start":632.503,"end":633.804,"text":"違反國家機密三層左右"},{"start":653.716,"end":668.366,"text":"你檢察官去亂起訴啊!然後你那個事,一起訴這個人就垮了一半耶!真的,檢察官起訴要很慎重,定罪的很高!日本的檢察官起訴定罪率99.9%!99.9%!但是我們在國安的部分,起訴的定罪率非常的低!"},{"start":677.612,"end":677.832,"text":"那那個翁偉"}]}},{"id":"150003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a323111acb0eb7e811b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a6ce2e2fcc1480a81a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:53:20 - 12:04:38","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":678,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:04:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:53:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時53分）謝謝主席。我先讓主委喝口茶，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委辛苦了。大家都很關心ETF熱賣的事情，也謝謝我們主席今天特別安排這個題目。請問一下主委，目前臺灣ETF的規模，按照你們報告的資料，現在有241檔ETF掛牌交易，交易規模是新臺幣4兆1,990億元；然後到1月底為止，上市櫃有48檔臺股ETF，持有的股票市值占全市場的股票市值之2.38%，占整體股市成交值及成交股數之比例約1%左右。這是你們提供的資料，請教一下主委，最近ETF熱賣，對於股市的成交影響大不大？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為您看得出來它交易量才占1%，所以理論上應該不至於有什麼過大的影響。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！我看它的數值才占1%，理論上對於股票的交易來講，應該不會有太大的波動才對。"],["黃主任委員天牧：大的格局上是這樣子沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：因為才占了1%左右。請教一下主委，ETF還有再成長的空間嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有吧！投信還會繼續再發ETF啊！"],["李委員坤城：只要股市持續熱，我認為ETF就有繼續成長的空間，在此我引述財訊董事長謝金河的看法，他說ETF熱賣，表示臺灣的錢很多，過去臺灣的錢很多，第一個就是往股市；第二個就是往房地產。所以他認為，最重要的是政府該如何引導現在這些游資要往哪裡走，才是正確的，因為我們不希望它往房地產的那個方向，助長房地產又再繼續炒熱，所以可能就是往股市，而股市的部分，現在又是往ETF走。對於謝金河的看法，主委的看法覺得如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝董事長是大家很尊敬的意見領袖，我想我們會參考他的意見……"],["李委員坤城：最主要就是臺灣的游資過多，因為我剛聽到前面的委員在問主委，主委也認為現在ETF會熱賣的原因之一，就是現在臺灣的游資過多，希望把錢拿去投資，錢若要投資，又希望能比定存再好一點，所以現在ETF熱賣，而且它的手續簡單然後很方便，感覺上現在股市過熱了，然後我們很多高檔的股票又沒辦法投資，所以就去買ETF了，所以造成ETF熱賣，主委您的看法呢？就是ETF熱賣的原因。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是啊！股市好，所以連結股市的ETF，大家就有興趣了，再加上我們臺灣投信ETF設計的商品，像這種月配息、季配息，國外都不太會做這個事了，但是這卻投合國人的期待。"],["李委員坤城：對，那就表示我們的投信對於ETF的包裝，或是它讓大家覺得入門非常容易，對未來也有期待，畢竟對於高檔股票，可能沒辦法有這麼多錢去買，但是會覺得買了ETF可能會有這個期待、有這個機會，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員整理得很好，就是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我是從你跟許多委員的對談來看的，我也看到你們報告提到ETF特性，第一個，ETF透明度高、具有分散投資風險；第二個，當然投資還是有風險，所以也必須要注意。但是你也提到它的透明度是高的，所以我剛才整理了一下，關於ETF熱賣，大概有幾個原因，第一個，股市上2萬點；第二個，游資過多；第三個，申購的門檻低，有時候一張1萬塊就有了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是因為這家投信的申購金額只有10塊，其他有的不見得只有10塊。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！當然有的會高一點，但是門檻都很低，對不對？比買零股還低，然後最近又是主打高配息，當然等一下我會請教一下主委。其實我在上禮拜也有問主計總處，主計長也提到超額儲蓄的問題，那時候朱主計長是回答我，超額的儲蓄也可以投資在金融市場，我請教一下主委，金融市場投資大概包含哪些？股票？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一般的基金商品、股票，然後像有些人也會投資黃金，這個也是，大概還有……"],["李委員坤城：ETF算不算？"],["黃主任委員天牧：ETF也算啊！"],["李委員坤城：其實我是認為，現在你只要讓它按照你們的規定來走，不管是基金、股票、ETF，其實只要按照規定來走，應該都要用健康的心態來面對它。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我同意委員的想法，這也是我們的想法，不會因為這一檔熱賣就要做什麼，我覺得就是從瞭解它問題徵兆之所在去做處理就好了。"],["李委員坤城：其實ETF有它的好處，我剛才提過了，為什麼有這麼多投資人願意去買ETF，而且它也都在你們的規範之下，才有辦法上市櫃，對不對？但是現在的問題就在於金管會認為它在包裝上面的一些話術，是不是容易讓投資人覺得自己買這個穩賺不賠，會不會有這樣的一個狀況？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，委員您講到重點了，就是要有正確的資訊告訴投資人，沒有什麼事情是穩賺不賠的。"],["李委員坤城：關於我的這些資訊，其實你們相關的規定都有，不論是廣告的查核或是KYP、KYC的查核都有，其實在ETF熱賣之前，相關的規範你們都有，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以其實只要落實KYP還有KYC的查核，知道你買的是什麼商品、知道是誰要來買，其實問題就可以減低很多，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有很多問題其實法規、制度都有，只是執行上有沒有落實。"],["李委員坤城：好，我來問你執行面的問題好了，給你看一個廣告，請主委看一下，這個廣告到底有沒有違反規定？畢竟你們現在有規定不應該以年化配息為廣告內容、不應該以月配息為廣告內容，其實我是不太清楚為什麼不能把年化配息或是月配息作為廣告內容，比如說如果已經把警語都寫出來了，為什麼不能用年化配息或是月配息作為廣告內容？問題出在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我想我現在不太適合，因為我還要跟同仁討論，到底這個廣告有沒有問題，很抱歉，我現在沒辦法說。"],["李委員坤城：先不談這個廣告，我舉出二點，這個廣告一是說高股息，一是每月的現金流，這二點就是違反了你們的規定：不可以用年化配息為廣告內容，不可以用月配息為廣告內容。我的問題在於為什麼不能用這兩點為廣告內容？就算它的警語上面都有寫。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是不是請同仁說明一下？它應該跟報酬率不太一樣。"],["高副局長晶萍：對，如果依照現在這個廣告，我們現在的規定是它不能使用比如「優於定存」或「打敗通膨」這樣的用語，公會已經有相關的規定。委員提示這個廣告的內容，我們會再了解它實際上有沒有一些可以再改進的地方。"],["李委員坤城：先不管這個廣告，我的意思是為什麼不能用年化配息率為廣告內容，或用月配息為廣告內容？像你剛剛所講的打敗定存，那不一定嘛，有時候就會賠啊！"],["高副局長晶萍：是。"],["李委員坤城：打敗通膨也不一定嘛，沒有穩賺不賠的。我只是很好奇，為什麼是用這兩點來作為規範的內容？如果它都有符合你們的規定，比如說在警語有寫基金配息不代表未來的配息率、基金配息來源可能是收益平準金等等，其實都有寫得很清楚，這有違反相關的規定嗎？"],["高副局長晶萍：回答委員的問題，委員剛剛有提到不能用年化配息率，比如第一季配了5%，它推算年化配息率，乘以4，就是20%，可是實際上成分股在第二季的時候配息的情況做調整，只配1%好了，前面的%數推算就會誤導投資人。"],["李委員坤城：不能這樣子。"],["高副局長晶萍：對、對、對。所以我們要求他要說清楚，而且不能用月配息還有其他配息率作廣告。"],["李委員坤城：它這邊寫的是殖利率是用過去5年平均計算。我不跟你討論這個個案的廣告，我只是跟你講，我們都希望投信公司在做廣告的時候，必須符合你們的規範。我現在提出來，如果他的年化配息或是月配息就按照你們的規定，寫清楚年化配息是怎麼來的、月配息是怎麼來的，那我很好奇，這樣有沒有違反相關的規定而已啦。","今天股票在漲、ETF在漲，我覺得呈現正相關，如果今天股票一直跌、一直跌、一直跌，我相信ETF也不會熱賣才對啦。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為剛好最近股票一直漲，大家對臺灣有信心，大家覺得ETF門檻低，我願意去買。這也像主計長所講的，這也是金融投資的一部分，我的看法是這樣，請你們參考。如果它都符合你們的規定，其實就用健康的心態來管理，知道你買的是什麼東西、知道是誰來買，按照目前的規定其實就可以了，但是不要用打壓的方式來處理啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：不會啦！我想這個是民眾要選擇的商品，但是重點是資訊要對稱、要透明，不要誤導投資人。"],["李委員坤城：對，資訊對稱、要透明、提醒投資人，這都是金管會和投信公司要做的，但是其他部分，我覺得就讓ETF自然成長。ETF也有下市、下櫃的，也都有啊！股票也是一樣，股票在漲的時候，我們也不會要你不要去買誰、買誰，我們也不會特別這樣講，因為這樣子就干預股市自然的成長法則。","目前為止，它的成交數這麼低，其實對股票市場的影響性也不大，所以我認為在手段與目標之間，你們要拿捏那個標準，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我了解。委員，我們就是這個方向，你看我的報告中也沒有要去打壓，就只是在行銷上特別注意。"],["李委員坤城：你的報告寫得很平實，但是在記者會對記者講話的時候，記者就會覺得有干預、打壓的味道出來了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，今天謝謝召委給我機會澄清，我們是健康發展。"],["李委員坤城：好，健康發展。謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。接著請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.55346875,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.48971875,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.691593750000003,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.99846875,"end":51.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.46596875,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.25346875,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.72971875,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.98659375,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.10346875,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.38596875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.17034375,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.67971875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.34159375,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.61284375000001,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.60659375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.02346875,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.81659375,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.62221875,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.03534375,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.72221875,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.25971875000002,"end":161.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.28846875000002,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.50221875,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.98721875,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.94846875000002,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.66846875000002,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.76971875,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.92159375,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.95534375000003,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.10909375,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.26034375,"end":208.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.40346875,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.95971875,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.93284375000002,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.87221875,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.60159375,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.21284375000002,"end":242.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.09846875000002,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.57909375000003,"end":267.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.35596875000005,"end":273.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.75221875,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.51971875000004,"end":275.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.05534375,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.05471875,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.55659375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.46784375000004,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.50159375000004,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":296.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.36846875000003,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.98721875,"end":327.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.76034375,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.51971875000004,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.78034375000004,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.76909375,"end":353.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.08534375000005,"end":359.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.38409375000003,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.33721875000003,"end":362.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.27784375000005,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.83784375000005,"end":382.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.32971875000004,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.75096875,"end":391.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.85159375,"end":392.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.93971875,"end":406.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.97596875000005,"end":419.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.28596875000005,"end":422.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.59784375000004,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.33159375,"end":428.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.93846875,"end":434.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.68846875,"end":448.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.42534375,"end":446.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.23096875000005,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.01409375000003,"end":472.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.48034375000003,"end":474.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.38721875000005,"end":480.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.74909375000004,"end":485.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.03096875000006,"end":487.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.49909375000004,"end":488.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.40596875000006,"end":493.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.43909375000004,"end":503.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.89721875000004,"end":531.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.4384687500001,"end":527.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.4040937500001,"end":528.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.13784375,"end":537.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.2040937500001,"end":543.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.49034375,"end":574.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6753437500001,"end":599.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.10534375,"end":577.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.12221875,"end":577.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.15596875,"end":577.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.34659375,"end":603.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.3628437500001,"end":607.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.0203437499999,"end":612.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.9309687500001,"end":616.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.5590937500001,"end":616.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.5759687500001,"end":616.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.66034375,"end":625.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.7222187500001,"end":636.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.16346875,"end":638.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.32784375,"end":644.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.4365937499999,"end":650.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.54534375,"end":651.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.4734687499999,"end":653.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.3972187500001,"end":655.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.43471875,"end":663.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.9990937500002,"end":670.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.4240937500001,"end":674.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.96346875,"end":677.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.66346875,"end":678.7097187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.232,"end":9.352,"text":"謝謝主席我先讓這個主委先喝口茶請主委請主委"},{"start":11.721,"end":32.908,"text":"主委辛苦了大家都很關心這個ETF熱賣也謝謝我們主席在今天特別召開這個題目那請問一下主委目前台灣ETF的規模我按照這個資料來講現在有241檔的ETF掛牌交易交易的規模是新台幣是4兆1990億元"},{"start":35.109,"end":60.03,"text":"然後到1月底為止上市櫃有48檔臺股ETF持有的股票占全市市場的股票市值是2.38%占整體股市交易值交易股數約占1%左右這是你們提供的資料那請教一下主委這個最近ETF熱賣對於股市的這個成交影響大不大"},{"start":61.314,"end":85.852,"text":"因為您看得出來它交易量才佔百分之一嘛所以理論上應該不至於有什麼過大的影響是啊就是說因為我就看數字才佔百分之一嘛那理論上對於這個股票的交易來講應該不會有太大的波動才對嘛大的格局上是這樣子沒錯那這個那因為也佔百分之一左右那請教一下主委ETF還有在成長的空間嗎"},{"start":88.435,"end":109.871,"text":"應該有吧 投信還會繼續再發ETF只要股市持續熱我認為這個ETF就有繼續成長的空間那我引述這一個這個財訊董事長謝金河的看法他說這個ETF熱賣就是表示說臺灣的錢很多那臺灣錢很多過去呢第一個是往股市那第二個呢就是往房地產"},{"start":111,"end":132.899,"text":"所以說他認為說最重要的是說引導政府的這一個現在的一些游資要往哪裡走才是正確的因為我們不希望說這個他去往房地產那個方向那住宅這個房地產又繼續又再炒熱然後呢那可能就往股市那往股市呢這個現在就是往ETF來走那對於這個謝金的看法主委的看法是覺得如何"},{"start":134.076,"end":155.776,"text":"沒有我想謝董事長是大家很尊敬的意見領袖啦我想我們會參考他的最主要是認為齁臺灣的游資過多啦因為我剛剛聽前面這個委員有在問這個主委主委也認為說那現在為什麼ETF會熱賣的原因之一就是說現在臺灣的游資過多然後這個錢希望去投資那錢投資呢希望說又比定存要再好一點"},{"start":156.437,"end":168.652,"text":"那所以呢現在ETF熱賣那手續簡單然後呢又很方便然後感覺上現在股市過熱了然後我們很多這個高檔的股票沒辦法投資所以就去買ETF了所以造成ETF的熱賣"},{"start":170.723,"end":186.292,"text":"主委您的看法因為股市好所以連結股市的ETF大家就有興趣再加上我們台灣的投信的ETF設計的商品這種月配息、季配息國外不太會做這個事但是投核國人的期待"},{"start":187.092,"end":204.706,"text":"對 那就表示說我們的投信對ETF的這個包裝或是說它的這個讓大家覺得說這個入門非常的容易那對未來也有期待我對於這個高檔股票我可能沒辦法有這麼多錢去買了但是我覺得買ETF可能有這個期待有這個機會對不對"},{"start":206.577,"end":225.24,"text":"委員整理得很好從你們跟許多委員的談法來看我也看到你們的報告ETF特性第一個ETF透明性高具有分散投資風險第二個當然投資還有風險所以也必須要注意但是你也提到說它透明度是高的"},{"start":225.7,"end":244.877,"text":"那所以我剛整理一下說ETF熱賣大概有幾個原因第一個股市上2萬點第二個游資過多第三個深扣的門檻低有時候一張1萬塊就有了至於這家投信只有10塊其他有的不見得10塊對啊當然有的高一點但是門檻都很低啊對不對比買零股還低"},{"start":246.758,"end":267.504,"text":"最近獨打高配席我會請教一下主委其實我在上禮拜也有問這個主計總署主計長也提到說超額儲蓄的問題他提到說超額儲蓄那時候朱主計長他是回答我說超額儲蓄也可以投資在金融市場那我請教一下主委金融市場投資大概包含哪些"},{"start":269.4,"end":295.871,"text":"一般基金、商品、股票有些人也投資黃金那ETF算不算?ETF也算所以我是認為因為現在你只要讓它按照你的規定來走那其實不管是基金、股票、ETF其實只要按照規定來走應該都用健康的心態來面對它"},{"start":297.506,"end":326.105,"text":"我同意委員的想法這也是我們的想法不會因為這一檔熱賣就做什麼我覺得就是從瞭解它問題徵兆的所在去做處理就好了因為現在就是說其實ETF有它的這個好處我剛才提過了說為什麼這麼多投資人願意去買ETF那它也都在你們的規範之下它有辦法上市櫃嘛對不對但是現在的問題就在於說金管認為說它在這個包裝上面的一些話術是不是容易讓投資人覺得說我買這個我賺不賠"},{"start":327.946,"end":355.774,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個...對 我以為您講到重點了就是要有正確的資訊告訴投資人如果有什麼事情是穩賺不賠其實如果有正確資訊其實你們有相關規定都有不論是廣告的查核或是說KYP、KYC的這個查核都有這個其實在這個ETF熱賣之前相關的規範你們都有嘛 對不對所以其實只要落實這個KYP還有KYC的查核知道你買的是什麼商品嘛那知道是誰要來買嘛"},{"start":357.114,"end":381.737,"text":"那其實問題就可以剪接很多嘛對不對有很多問題其實法規制度都有只是執行上有沒有落實好 那我問你執行面的問題好了給你看一個廣告那主委看一下說廣告到底有沒有違反說你們現在這一個不應該以年化配息為廣告內容不應該以月配息為廣告內容其實我是不太清楚說為什麼這個年化配息或是月配息不能作為廣告內容"},{"start":383.373,"end":392.179,"text":"他如果他有把這一個比如說警語都把他寫出來了那為什麼不能用這一個年化配息或是月配息為廣告內容他的問題在哪裡"},{"start":395.52,"end":423.47,"text":"這個我想我現在不太適合因為我還要跟同仁討論一下到底這個廣告到底的有沒有問題很抱歉我現在沒辦法去說先不談這個廣告因為我是舉出這兩點因為它的廣告一個是高股息一個是每月的現金流那因為這兩點就是違反了你們的規定說不可以用年化配息為廣告內容不可以用月配息為廣告內容那我的問題在於說那為什麼不能用這兩個"},{"start":426.137,"end":434.371,"text":"這兩點為廣告內容就算他的僅語上面都會寫這個是不是請同仁說明一下他應該跟報酬率是不太一樣的對不對"},{"start":436.93,"end":458.199,"text":"對 如果說依照現在這個廣告的話我們現在的規定是說它不能使用說比如說優於定存或打敗通膨這樣子的一些用語那就是那個公會的規定已經有這樣相關規定那委員提示這個廣告內容我們會再瞭解一下它實際上面的一些廣告有沒有什麼"},{"start":460.24,"end":479.41,"text":"我的意思是說先不管這個廣告就是說那為什麼不能用年化配息例如廣告內容或是說月配息為廣告的內容如果剛剛像你所講的說打敗定存那不一定嘛有時候就會賠啊打敗通膨也不一定嘛那沒有穩賺不賠的那我只是說我很好奇為什麼是用這兩點"},{"start":481.011,"end":502.81,"text":"來作為這個你們規範的內容如果他都有符合你們的規定啊比如說他在集語上面有寫比如說這個他的這個來回到上一頁比如說他是這個領袭他就說領袭這個基金配期不代表未來的配期率基金配期來源可能是收益批准金等等他其實都寫得很清楚那這有違反相關的規定嗎"},{"start":505.466,"end":532.455,"text":"回答委員的問題就是剛剛委員提到那個不能用年化配息比如說他第一季配了5%好了他用推算就是比如說推算成年化就乘以4就20%可是實際上他的成分股在第二季的時候配息的情況做調整只配1%好了這樣子就會當然啦不能這樣子對對對所以我們就要求說他要說清楚而且不能用月配息比如說他這邊寫的他這邊寫的說他的這一個"},{"start":534.937,"end":561.256,"text":"這個殖利率是用過去5年的這個平均計算這樣子我不跟你討論這個個案的廣告我只是跟你講就是說我們都希望說這一個投信公司他們在做廣告的時候他必須符合你的規範那我現在是提出來規範就是說如果他的規範年化配息或是說月配息他就按照你的規定寫清楚說年化配息是怎麼來的然後月配息是怎麼來的"},{"start":562.697,"end":589.862,"text":"那我很好奇說那這樣有沒有違反相關的規定而已就是說今天這個股票在漲ETF在漲我覺得是呈現正相關如果今天股票一直跌一直跌一直跌我相信ETF也不會熱賣才對啦那所以說是因為剛好最近股票一直漲那大家對台灣有信心那對ETF大家覺得說我門檻低我願意去買那這也像這個主席長他所講的就是說那這個其實也是金融投資的一部分"},{"start":590.822,"end":607.407,"text":"那我的看法就是認為說你們參考就是說如果它都是符合你們的規定那其實就用健康的心態去來管理它知道你買的是什麼東西知道是誰來買按照目前的規定其實就可以了但是不要用這個打壓的方式來做處理啦"},{"start":608.435,"end":623.268,"text":"不會啦我想這個是民眾要選擇的商品但是重點資訊要對稱要透明要誤導投資人資訊對稱要透明然後提醒投資人這都是金管會還有投信公司都要做的"},{"start":624.148,"end":651,"text":"但是其他之外就讓ETF我就讓它自然去成長那ETF也有下市下跪的也都有啊那股票也是一樣啊股票在漲的時候我們也不會說你不要去買誰買誰我們也不會特別去這樣講因為這樣子就干預股市的這一個自然的這個成長的法則啦那我說過說目前為止它的這個成交數這麼低其實對於股票市場其實影響性也不大那所以我認為說在手段"},{"start":651.74,"end":677.234,"text":"與目標之間這個你們要拿捏那個標準啦好不好我瞭解委員我們就是這個方向你看我的報告中也沒有要去就只是做行銷上面特別注意你的報告寫得很平實阿但是齁對記者講話的時候這個記者會就會覺得說有這個干預打壓的這個味道出來啦沒有我今天謝謝召委給我機會去澄清啦我們是健康發展好健康發展好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150002","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150002","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a9e0f39662d20df8287ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6d0fe735612618ed45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:48:07 - 12:00:52","影片長度":"00:12:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":765,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:00:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:48:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時48分）謝謝召委。請潘部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。首先請教部長，之前伸港三姐弟在放學時穿越馬路發生車禍，這件事全國各界都非常關心，也伸出援手協助其家中困境，大家也非常關心兩位姐姐後續的醫療與醫治狀況。在這邊我要請教部長，三姐弟事件發生後，學校對在校學生有沒有啟動相關的心輔機制？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分我可能要再瞭解一下。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們除了關心三姐弟後續的治療狀況及交通安全的提升之外，其實對在校學生來說，這是一個很大的衝擊，所以學校應該對這部分妥善處理，並對學校的這些同學啟動心輔機制，讓孩子們在事件的衝擊之後，也能體會在這樣的狀態之下如何去調適，並注重交通安全，也希望學校能夠關心。這部分再請部長留意一下。"],["潘部長文忠：好，有關學校對於其他同學的輔導我再瞭解一下……"],["陳委員秀寳：再麻煩……"],["潘部長文忠：事發當時，我有請次長特別去關心學童受傷的情形，至於剛才委員提醒的那一段，我再瞭解一下。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於今天的主題，近日很多校園事件時有所聞，發生這樣遺憾的事件，本席感到非常痛心。但是本席這邊更關心的是，在事件發生之後，教育部有因應來修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項，這個修訂有沒有符合我們教育現場的需求？這一次的修正，教育部是以校園安全諮詢會的意見，然後新增了特定學生的定義、條件，以及校園安全檢查機制的流程、陪同人員的彈性措施等等，並且在2月5號就修訂完成。請問部長，新學期到目前為止實施的狀況如何？教學現場的相關人員有沒有什麼意見的回饋？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為這一次的注意事項確實是做全面的盤點，也很細密的邀集包含校長、教師、學生，還有一些長期關心學童安全的團體，以及縣市，詳細的開了七次的會議逐一的討論。這裡面當然也包含有時候老師們關心的遇到偶突發事件，他們在這方面怎麼做才不會動輒得咎。有一個叫去除有關免罰的作法，這個確實也是來自學校，希望這方面能夠讓學校的老師們在做必要管理時的……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以校園安全諮詢會的意見納入之後修訂，我們是不是也有採納教學現場老師們的意見、學校的意見？"],["潘部長文忠：對，在這一次全面的調整裡面，包含到剛才委員談到我們歸納下來，對於可能會造成其他學生、人員生命、身體傷害的這種對象，也要能夠進行相關不定期、隨時的安全檢查。"],["陳委員秀寳：在校園的安全諮詢會上面，教育部有提到會規劃各縣市政府聯絡處來增置高關懷學生的個案輔導員，並且增置中小學的學務以及校安人員等等的配套措施。這邊我想要請教的是，目前這個配套措施的研議以及進度如何？其實我希望教育部滾動檢討新的「學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項」的實施成效，要配合實施的狀況，我剛剛提到的，要配合教學現場他們的需求調整，同時也要很積極地推動，因為相關的規劃我們必須趕快實施，才能因應越來越多這樣的事件發生。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到有一個我們現在叫做各縣市的聯絡處，當時大家在提這個構想的時候會覺得，因為聯絡處其實我們的同仁，包含軍訓教官、創新人力，長期也都在協助這些高關懷學生，包含毒品防制等等。在討論的過程當中，學校校長或我們同仁比較希望這方面是一個輔助，還是希望能夠在學校端對於輔導人力加速的補充，按照學輔法充實，以及對於學務處很繁重的工作能夠增加……，因為那等於是每個學校日常會碰到的行政事務，所以我們在這方面，反而是大家經過幾次討論後，會先以這個為重點。聯絡處的部分，能夠持續協助跨校間的這種工作……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以還在規劃相關的措施？"],["潘部長文忠：對，但是有關輔導教師這部分的人力會提前。"],["陳委員秀寳：我希望教育部要積極，也要再快一點。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席發現在校安通報的暴力事件跟偏差行為中，國小、國中、高中每個階段的暴力事件是一年比一年多，你看一下這個資料，從101年國小是968件，十年之間，到112年變成9,370件，將近十倍；國中、高中也增加了將近有四倍，有八千多件。國小學生暴力事件增加的速度，部長應該也有感覺到這是很嚴重的，應該也跟我一樣是很震驚。除此之外，國小教師有反映暴力事件的發生，年齡層有向下延伸的趨勢，在過去可能在高年級才會發生這樣的狀況，現在是從中年級，從3年級開始就有這樣的現象發生，這個部分部長知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，112跟111或幾年這個部分，其實通報的人數就如剛剛委員所提到的這個情況，這個部分我也跟委員報告一個情況，因為過去外界很多的調查都說，我們學生可能有受到霸凌或有這些衝突，但是隱忍或學校有隱藏，所以這幾年我們是強力的要求，甚至課責學校通報的責任，因為只有把一些訊息確實比較……"],["陳委員秀寳：當然部長的意思我理解，"],["潘部長文忠：對，因為如果說……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為有通報，所以我們才知道有這樣的事件，以前可能沒有通報，所以不知道有這麼多事件，但是有這麼高的發生件數，這個是我們必須要去正視的，因為它真的是一個很嚴重的現象。有老師分析，這可能是因為現在的網路科技比較發達，學生接觸、使用3C產品太多，導致我們的孩子現在比較少跟人實際上溝通，也導致他們的情緒控管能力會變得比較差，尤其是短影音的影響，因為它是一種快速表達跟快速的接收。今天我指出這個現象，是希望教育部要正視這個狀況的嚴重性，並且應該要去分析是什麼原因造成孩子們暴力的事件增加。我們在學校的課程裡面，是不是應該要增加一些溝通或是認識暴力相關的課程，告訴我們的孩子們溝通的重要，以及暴力行為不可取？因為有時候其實我們的孩子在那麼小的年紀，有時候其實可能沒有認知到他這樣的行為是很嚴重的傷害、暴力行為。有的孩子只是覺得他是一種學習或一種模仿，錯誤的模仿，但是他沒有意識到當他手中如果是有筆、有美工刀的時候，將它揮出去對其他人的傷害有多大，有多麼的嚴重。所以我要呼籲教育部，我們必須要從源頭追溯暴力事件的發生，以及這些偏差行為發生的原因，並且應該要融入課程，教育孩子、教育我們的學生暴力事件的嚴重性，部長覺得呢？"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員所提的這個我非常認同，我想從教育上，尤其不管是情緒或跟人的溝通、互動等等，這些在我們12年國教的課綱裡面其實是有這個課程，但是不是能夠再更深化、強調，我覺得很必要啦。"],["陳委員秀寳：有時候我們是定在課綱裡面，所以我剛才為什麼會一直提到教學現場老師意見的反映非常地重要。"],["潘部長文忠：對，我跟委員報告，有這個課綱就表示有這個課程啦，尤其是我們專任的輔導教師……"],["陳委員秀寳：那是不是成效不佳，我們要檢討？"],["潘部長文忠：對，關於這一點，所以我說必須要再去深化…………"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來本席要再跟部長討論的是，根據警政署的統計通報，112年少年嫌疑犯，比上個年度增加了一千多人，增加的幅度高達12.94%，將近13%。少年犯罪型態又以詐欺及兒少性剝削增加的幅度最大，其中兒少性剝削的增幅竟然高達60%。這個議題之前本席也有關心過，就是現在的少年很容易被詐騙，也很容易詐騙別人這個問題。這個現象似乎是越來越明顯，教育部之前也有回復，在學校端都有做相關的反詐或相關的教育，但是以這個統計數據來看，成效並沒有太好。教育部身為主管機關，部長覺得有沒有新的措施來教育我們的孩子？我希望教育部可以傾聽教育現場老師們的需求，協助教師們如何來培育我們的孩子具有這樣子的概念，就是老師要先有這樣的知能，老師要先有這樣的資源，才能來教育我們的孩子。我們也應該要跨部會研議因應的措施，因為有些孩子其實他們對這個不良行為並沒有真正的認知、沒有真正的認識的話，他也不知道這是一條偏差的路。部長覺得呢？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，網路這方面造成的影響確實非常大，所以我們對於這方面，在學校有關的課程，也就是資訊素養這方面，這個確實是一個重點。對於真的有關詐騙的這個現象，我們從過去反毒入班宣導，現在也把詐騙這個事情放進來。"],["陳委員秀寳：不只是詐騙！部長，我在這邊要提醒你們的是，如果說我們的成效沒有那麼好，就表示我們該檢討。請主席再給我一點時間，我趕快把它講完。學校的老師面對孩子的這些暴力偏差行為，其實有時候對象不只是學生對學生，也會有學生對老師。根據教育部的統計，我們高中以下的教師被不當對待的通報事件，也已經比往年多，從111年的71.6%，到今年2月已經提升到88.7%。相對的，我們的教師所面對的壓力是越來越大，我們的教師透過心輔的諮商管道尋求協助的人數也一年比一年多。所以我們現在除了關心我們的孩子，也要關心我們的教師，因為他們承受各種壓力。除了教育部現在對各學校試辦學生心理調適假以外，我也想請教育部研議，是不是也評估一下增加教師的心理調適假？針對這部分，請你們會後再給我相關討論跟報告，因為主席已經站起來了。我只是要強調、提醒教育部，除了對於學生我們必須非常關心，對於教師本身面臨這樣的壓力，是不是有心理調適假這樣的需求，也請你們要審慎評估。以上。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。對老師給予心理支持的預算，我們今年增加10倍，就是希望也幫老師解決心理上的壓力。至於委員所提的調適假，相關各類人員可能應該一併加以討論。"],["主席：謝謝部長。","接下來請范雲委員。范雲委員質詢結束後就處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.388468750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":14.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.10034375,"end":43.720343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.509093750000005,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.884093750000005,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.40971875000001,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.11784375,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.33659375,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.71221875,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.71971875,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.05159375000002,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.67471875,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.14409375000002,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.29159375,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.40221875,"end":243.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.66846875000005,"end":275.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.15659375,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.89721875000004,"end":323.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.91721875,"end":326.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.01409375000003,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.71784375000004,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":333.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.59909375,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.18971875,"end":388.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.29096875000005,"end":419.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.54784375,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.42096875000004,"end":421.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.28971875,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.1272187500001,"end":536.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.20034375,"end":542.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.65096875,"end":542.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.0390937500001,"end":549.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.85659375,"end":551.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.84784375,"end":552.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.52284375,"end":637.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.1128437500001,"end":660.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.1640937500001,"end":672.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.19159375,"end":749.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.8828437500001,"end":732.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.1965937500001,"end":763.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.6328437500001,"end":765.97034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.438,"end":7.458,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":13.246,"end":32.365,"text":"委員好部長早安首先我這邊先請教部長之前我們深港鄉有發生一個三姊弟他在放學的時候穿越馬路發生車禍那這個其實我們全國各界都非常的關心也伸出援手來協助他家中的困境那大家也都非常關心兩位姊姊後續的醫療的狀況醫治的狀況但是在這邊我要請教部長"},{"start":36.189,"end":37.291,"text":"這個事件發生之後．學校對這三件事件．對在下學生有沒有啟動相關的心腹機制?"},{"start":46.003,"end":52.207,"text":"這部分我可能再了解一下因為除了說對這三姐弟我們後續的我們要來關心說他們的後續的治療的狀況那對交通安全的提升那其實對在校學生這一個是一個很大的衝擊所以說這個部分學校應該做一個妥善的一個處理來對學校的這些同學這些學生做一個心服的這個"},{"start":68.638,"end":69.378,"text":"委員提醒那一段我再瞭解一下"},{"start":97.89,"end":118.038,"text":"關於今天的主題其實近日很多校園事件一流所聞那發生這樣子遺憾的事件本席也感到非常的痛心但是本席這邊更關心是說在我們事件發生之後教育部這邊有意義來修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項"},{"start":119.979,"end":130.387,"text":"這個修訂有沒有符合我們教育現場的需求這次的修正呢教育部是以校園安全諮詢會的意見然後新增了特定學生的定義條件以及校園安全檢查的這個機制的流程陪同人員的彈性措施等等並且在2月5號就修訂完成那請問部長喔新學期到目前為止實施的狀況如何教學現場的相關人員有沒有什麼意見的回饋"},{"start":149.762,"end":167.523,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這次的注意事項確實是做全面的盤點那也很細密的邀請我們相關,包括校長、教師、學生還有我們一些長期關心學童安全的團體還有縣市,詳細的開了7次的會議,就逐一逐一的討論"},{"start":169.505,"end":178.47,"text":"這裡面當然也包含有時候老師們關心的一到五突發事件他們在這方面怎麼做才不會說動輒得咎有一個叫去除有關免罰的這個做法這個確實也是來自學校希望這方面能夠讓學校老師們在做必要管理的措施"},{"start":192.298,"end":199.183,"text":"我們在這個校園安全諮詢會這個意見我們納入之後我們來修訂我們是不是也要採納在教學現場老師們的意見、學校的意見對、對,然後當然這一次全面的討論裡面也包含到我們說剛才委員談到我們歸納下來對於說可能會造成其他學生、人員有生命、身體這種對象那也要能夠進行相關的不定期、隨時的安全檢查的概念"},{"start":222.341,"end":243.162,"text":"在校園的安全諮詢會上面教育部你們有提到就是說會規劃各縣市政府聯絡處呢要來增置高關懷學生的個案輔導員並且增置中小學學務以及校安人員等等的配套措施那這邊我要想要請教說我們目前這個配套措施的研議以及進度如何"},{"start":243.562,"end":249.166,"text":"那其實我希望說教育部你們在滾動檢討新的學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項這個實施成效呢你們要配合實施的狀況我剛剛提到的要配合現場教學現場他們的需求來做調整同時也要很積極的來推動因為相關的這個規劃我們趕快去實施才能去應應到越來越多這樣的事件發生"},{"start":268.16,"end":287.642,"text":"剛才委員提到有一個對我們現在叫做各縣市的聯絡處當時大家在提這個構想的時候會覺得因為聯絡處其實我們的同仁包含軍訓教官、創新人力其實長期也都在協助這些我們說高關懷學生包含毒品防治等等的"},{"start":289.183,"end":314.599,"text":"在討論的過程當中學校校長或我們同仁他們比較希望說這方面是一個輔助還是希望能夠在學校端對於輔導人力能夠加速的來按照學務法來充實以及對於學務處很繁重的這個工作能夠增加因為那個是每個學校等於說日常會去碰到的行政數所以我們在這方面反而是大家經過幾次討論會先以這個為重點那聯絡處的部分"},{"start":318.601,"end":318.621,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":335.031,"end":345.337,"text":"本席發現在校安通報中暴力事件跟偏差行為中國小、國中、高中每個階段的暴力事件是一年比一年多那你看一下這個資料從101年國小是968件"},{"start":350.08,"end":350.1,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":368.726,"end":381.02,"text":"部長您也感覺到這是很嚴重的應該也跟我一樣是很震驚那除此之外國小教師有反應暴力事件的發生年齡層有向下延伸的趨勢在過去可能在高年級才會發生這樣的狀況現在從中年級從三年級開始就有這樣的現象發生這個部分"},{"start":387.748,"end":392.97,"text":"部長您知道嗎我跟委員報告這個112跟111或幾年這個部分其實通報的人數就如剛才委員所提到的這個這個我也跟委員報告一個情況因為過去外界很多的調查都說我們學生可能有受到霸凌或有這些衝突但是隱忍"},{"start":410.057,"end":410.077,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":434.838,"end":437.26,"text":"有導師分析可能是因為現在的網路科技比較發達學生接觸這些3C產品使用太多導致說我們的孩子現在比較少跟人實際上的去溝通也導致說他們的情緒控管能力會變得比較差尤其是這個短影音的影響"},{"start":451.991,"end":452.231,"text":"陳秀寳教育部長"},{"start":477.711,"end":477.731,"text":"﹚陳秀寳﹚"},{"start":494.778,"end":517.419,"text":"但是他沒有意識到當他手中如果是有筆有美工刀的時候這個揮出去對其他人的傷害性有多大有多麼的嚴重所以這邊我要呼籲我們教育部我們要從源頭來追溯說暴力事件發生以及這些拼擦行為發生的原因並且我們應該融入課程讓教育孩子教育我們的學生這個暴力事件的嚴重性部長您覺得"},{"start":518.2,"end":536.285,"text":"是 委員所提的這個我非常認同我想從教育上尤其是不管是情緒或跟人溝通互動等等的這些在我們12年國教的課綱裡面其實有這個課程但是能夠再更深化強調我覺得很必要的"},{"start":536.425,"end":537.085,"text":"提到教學現場老師的意見反應非常重要有這個課程尤其是專任的輔導教師"},{"start":554.037,"end":573.342,"text":"這邊再跟部長您討論根據警政署的統計通報112年少年型疑犯比上個年度增加1000多人增加的幅度高達12.9%是將近13%那少年犯罪形態又以詐欺以及兒少性剝削增加的幅度最大其中兒少性剝削的增幅竟然高達60%"},{"start":577.543,"end":577.563,"text":"陳秀寳"},{"start":596.195,"end":596.935,"text":"陳秀寳教育部長陳秀寳教育部長"},{"start":624.085,"end":624.105,"text":"陳秀寳"},{"start":645.871,"end":653.754,"text":"有關這個叫做資訊素養的這方面這個確實是一個重點那對於真的有關詐騙的這個現象我們從過去反讀入班宣導現在也把詐騙這個事情放進來不只是詐騙部長我在這邊要提醒你們就是說如果說我們的成效沒有那麼好就表示說我們該檢討這邊主席再給我一點時間我趕快把它講完學校"},{"start":673.397,"end":673.417,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":689.17,"end":689.19,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":715.371,"end":718.415,"text":"除了對我們的各學校來示範學生的心理調適價這邊也想請教育部這邊來研議是不是評估一下增加教師的心理調適價這個部分你會後再給我你們相關的這些討論跟報告那我這邊先因為主席已經站起來了"},{"start":735.993,"end":758.31,"text":"所以我只是要提醒教育部除了學生我們必須要非常的關心教師本身他面臨這樣的壓力他是不是有這樣的需求在心理調適價的部分請你們來審慎的評估以上謝謝委員我想對老師心理支持我們今年的預算增加10倍就是希望也要幫老師解決他心理上的一些壓力委員所提的調適價這個可能我們相關各類人員應該要做一些討論謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a138d2934e393f13e3919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a633174c4ba0c790ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:42:30 - 11:54:29","影片長度":"00:11:59","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":719,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:54:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:42:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時42分）主席、各位官員大家好。有請部長。"],["主席：請蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長您辛苦了，從今天早上一直到現在，其實我想委員們問的問題都差不多，尤其是針對這次剴剴被他的保姆虐死案，然後後續又延伸了社工被拘提上銬的問題，也引起了社工界很大的反應，大家認為檢警在處理這個案子上有沒有過當的問題。我想請教您，以您過去在實務界工作這麼多年，如果是您今天辦案，您會發拘票嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：要看案情如何，如果有立即需要這個人，傳喚他不到，當然我們依法還是可以來核發拘票。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想在刑事訴訟法裡面其實也規定的很清楚，對於要進行拘提有要踐行一定的步驟，是有一些條件的。如果說是以今天這個社工的情況，他其實都已經到了警察局，也到那裡去進行案情的說明，就算檢察官之前有開拘票，可是這樣子的作法是正確的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：在法律上他是可以這樣做的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是這樣的話有沒有逾越了比例原則？我們看一下，其實在現行法律裡面的規定，除非被告的犯罪嫌疑重大，然後有符合一定的條件，必要的時候才可以不經傳喚進行拘提。可是今天的情況是這個社工都已經到警局了，看起來也都很配合，可是我們警方卻仍然是在當時有核發拘票，這樣子的行為是不是已經違反了檢察官一般辦案的作法？"],["蔡部長清祥：法律上他是合法的，但是有沒有比例原則上的考量，這個可以在個案上判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問過去檢察署曾經針對檢察官不法核發拘票的這件事情有進行過內部的檢討嗎？或是你們有訂定過什麼樣的注意事項？"],["蔡部長清祥：針對拘票的問題，當然很少看到有不合法的，因為畢竟法律對檢察官來講，他個案處理的經驗很豐富，而且還有主任檢察官、襄閱，還有檢察長在督導，所以個案上並沒有看到說有違法……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們過去都沒有發現過有檢察官濫發拘票這樣的狀況？"],["蔡部長清祥：據我所知是沒有因為這樣……"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為其實就這麼多年來，一定會有檢察官有濫發拘票，否則……"],["蔡部長清祥：也許有，但是我想沒有說要拿出來檢討要處罰的。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是從這個案子裡面其實就已經凸顯出檢察官是不是有濫發拘票的問題，過去我們其實常看到新聞上都有這種問題的產生……"],["蔡部長清祥：濫發拘票是沒有，只是……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我希望法務部能夠針對核發拘票的權限，以及在什麼樣的情況之下可以核發，什麼樣的情況之下是不……應該要做一個類型化、要進行相關拘提、核發拘票的相關規則。","接下來我想請教的是，那麼上銬呢？這次也是社會大眾對於我們的警察人員為什麼要給社工上銬的這個行為，認為有非常嚴重的瑕疵。依照我們現在刑事訴訟法相關的規定，其實執行拘提、逮捕或解送，得使用戒具，但是不得逾越必要的程度。請問裁量權這個部分，在過去的檢察署是怎麼樣做解釋？或是警察單位。"],["蔡部長清祥：因為執行是在警察。"],["翁委員曉玲：警察，是。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以他要判斷當時的狀況是不是有這個必要的情形。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以就這次的社工的情況來說，您認為他有必要要上手銬嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為我沒有看到整個案件的情形……"],["翁委員曉玲：可以請警政署。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以我想這個東西，還是可以尊重案情比較了解的承辦人員來做必要的判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。今天警政署也有來嗎？警政署的代表？"],["主席：請局長上台。"],["周局長幼偉：報告委員，我是刑事警察局局長周幼偉。這個案子的話，因為當時是依據檢察官的拘票來執行這樣一個拘提的行動，這個拘提我們自己有一個辦法是執行拘提、逮捕戒送。然後使用戒具實施辦法裡面，這裡面就寫，如果我們是執行拘提、逮捕的話，是可以用手銬，但是不能使用戒具作為懲罰的方法。同時這裡有提到，就是說要遵守比例原則，不能逾越必要的程度。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，很好。是，謝謝局長的解說。很重要的就是，在刑事訴訟法裡面就已經講了，你就算是要使用戒具，要符合比例原則，而且也必須要注意到被告或犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽，要避免他公然暴露他的戒具。可是在這一次我們看到社工上銬的問題，其實很清楚，我認為其實都違反了比例原則，包含以他的這個狀況來講可不可以上銬。警察的裁量權有這麼大嗎？以及他上銬之後，他有沒有注意到其實也是要維護到社工的名譽，而應該要做一個適當的遮掩。這個部分其實看起來警察是都沒有做到，從一開始我們剛剛講是不是使用拘票，然後之後他可不可以上銬，其實這一連串的問題都凸顯出我們的檢警單位在針對這種犯罪嫌疑人的時候，其實做法上面是有違我們現在法律裡面所規定的。而且就整個比例原則的判斷來講，看起來是有明顯的瑕疵。","那麼接下來就談到有關於偵查不公開的問題，這一次也引發社會大眾很憤怒的地方，就是說為什麼媒體竟然在這個社工走出來警局以及進入地檢署的時候，都有大批的記者在門外守候，而且直接地拍攝。有關於偵查不公開的作業部分，看起來法務部其實自己本身是有訂定偵查不公開作業辦法。可是我大致上看了一下，應該說我有看了偵查不公開作業辦法，裡面的規定其實都很抽象，不知道為什麼法務部這邊沒有要求各個檢察或檢調單位有訂定更細緻的注意要點？我現在看到的是警察機關這裡是有訂定有關於跟新聞媒體的注意要點，但是就是檢調機關沒有。那我想請教部長，為什麼沒有制定？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們內部也有一些相關的規定，但是偵查不公開作業辦法其實就是很明確地訂定哪些是可以公開、哪些不可以公開，甚至說要設置一個場所來接受採訪，以發言人的制度來對外說明，這個我們都有很明確地要求要遵守這個規定。"],["翁委員曉玲：對。我現在看到的只有設置發言的場所，但是對於更細節的部分，看起來是警察機關，就是警政署這邊訂定的「警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則注意要點」裡面是訂得更為細緻，很多的細節都有訂定。所以我在這邊我也希望法務部也可以比照、參考警政署所訂的注意要點，自己的檢調機關也應該要訂定類似的要點。","還有，剛剛前面幾位委員有講的，其實你們針對這個偵查不公開也有進行定期的檢討，可是很有趣的就是，不管是在高檢署、法務部等等，自己內部所進行檢討的案件數非常多，但是實際上真的有被處罰的人數卻非常非常少。所以我就不知道你們是怎麼樣去進行，要提出這些檢討件數，但是為什麼檢討之後，完全都沒有任何的建議或改正，或是懲處的措施？"],["蔡部長清祥：檢討數字多，是因為他搜所有報導出來的有關案件的文章或是報導內容都要來檢討，所以他案件很多，因為每一天報紙都有很多個案的報導。至於這些是不是有涉及到偵查不公開，案件自然會變少，這個少數，但是我們還是很深入去探討有沒有違反而要負責任的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。我認為可能你們檢討小組裡面也出了一些問題，如果說都是自己內部的人在進行檢討，而沒有引入外部專家、學者，甚至媒體一起來進入、來討論的話，那麼我認為說這樣的偵查不公開，可能你未來就算再檢討了一千件、一萬件，也不會有任何人員的處分。這樣的話，對於我們要促進偵查不公開，讓他能夠更重視人權，這是沒有助益的。所以我希望你們能夠好好地去檢討有關於偵查不公開作業辦法，如果違反的話，相關的懲處以及如何能夠將偵查不公開作業的辦法再往下落實，可以訂定更細緻的作業要點，這樣才有辦法真的能夠維護司法人權。以上。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。那我們接下來請賴士葆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.44846875,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.83596875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.775968750000004,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.07346875,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.59221875,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.26284375,"end":59.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.88159375000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.69096875000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.32659375,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.82284375,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.72971875,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.86034375000001,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.79596875000001,"end":129.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.47909375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.20721875,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.66159375,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":166.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.77284375000002,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.92034375,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.78909375,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.25284375,"end":181.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.65284375000002,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.74096875,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.92971875,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.83971875,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.43159375000002,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.83534375000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.45096875000002,"end":232.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.02846875,"end":236.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.25971875000002,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.07721875000001,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.51159375,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.33409375000002,"end":248.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.07096875,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.12409375000004,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.45221875000004,"end":278.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.21096875,"end":279.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.70034375,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.70721875000004,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.31034375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.98096875000005,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.17909375,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.49409375000005,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.24471875,"end":313.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.97346875,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.65596875,"end":328.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.59659375,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.24971875,"end":334.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.16846875000005,"end":347.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.69971875000005,"end":339.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.08659375,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.41034375000004,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.54909375,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.16471875,"end":359.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.29534375000003,"end":393.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.21721875000003,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.31846875,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.20159375000003,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.28971875,"end":396.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.76284375,"end":432.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.94221875000005,"end":474.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.41659375,"end":495.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.93659375000004,"end":502.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.50096875,"end":543.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.50284375,"end":566.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.42784375,"end":636.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.06221875,"end":637.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.31096875,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.5053437500001,"end":717.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.01596875,"end":717.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.99471875,"end":718.99034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.409,"end":15.097,"text":"我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間我們會持續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答完畢為止接下來我們請翁委員曉玲進行詢答"},{"start":28.479,"end":31.926,"text":"主席各位官員大家好還有有請部長請蔡部長"},{"start":38.883,"end":43.947,"text":"市長您辛苦了從今天早上一直到現在其實我想委員們問的問題都差不多尤其是針對這次凱凱被保母虐死案然後後續又延伸了社工的這個被具體上銬的這個問題也引起了社工界的很大的反應那麼大家認為說這個在僅僅"},{"start":65.765,"end":65.785,"text":"麻煩這個"},{"start":93.67,"end":114.791,"text":"下一頁圖表我想在刑事訴訟法裡面其實也規定得很清楚對於要進行拘提他其實有要進行一定的步驟有一些條件的如果說是以今天社工的情況他其實都已經到了警察局"},{"start":116.032,"end":125.021,"text":"也到那裡去進行案情的說明那麼就算是檢察官之前有開G票可是這樣子的做法是正確的嗎?"},{"start":126.98,"end":148.551,"text":"在法律上他是可以這樣做的是可是這樣的話有沒有逾越了他的逾越比例原則我們可以看一下其實在現行的法律裡面的規定就是除非是這個被告的犯罪嫌疑重大然後有符合一定的條件必要的時候才可以不經傳喚進行拘提可是今天的情況就是說這個社工"},{"start":149.691,"end":172.191,"text":"他已經都到警局而且呢看起來也都很配合可是我們警方卻這個仍然是當時這個有合法這個拘票這樣子的行為是不是已經違反了警這個已經違反了檢察官這個一般辦案的的這樣做法"},{"start":173.488,"end":196.706,"text":"法律上它是合法的但是有沒有比例原則上這個考量那這個是可以在個案上判斷那請問過去檢察署這邊曾經有針對檢察官這個就不法的去合法拘票的這件事情有進行過內部的檢討嗎或是你們有訂定過什麼樣的一個注意事項嗎"},{"start":198.781,"end":221.691,"text":"針對拘票的問題當然很少看到說有不合法的因為畢竟法律對檢察官來講他個案的處理他經驗很豐富而且還有主任檢察官還有相岳還有檢察長在督導所以個案上並沒有看到說有違法的所以你們過去都沒有發現過就是說有檢察官有濫發拘票的這樣的狀況"},{"start":226.205,"end":235.335,"text":"據我所知是沒有因為這樣我認為其實這這麼多年來一定會有檢查關係也許有但是我想沒有說拿出來檢討要處罰的"},{"start":237.575,"end":247.707,"text":"但是從這個案子裡面其實就已經凸顯出其實檢察官是不是有濫發G票的一個問題那麼在過去我們其實常看到新聞上面都有這樣的一個問題的產生所以我希望法務部能夠針對這個檢查發G票的"},{"start":257.137,"end":257.657,"text":"這次也是社會大眾對於我們的這個"},{"start":285.371,"end":301.171,"text":"這警察人員為什麼要給社工上銬的這個行為認為有非常嚴重的瑕疵那麼依照我們現在這個刑事訴訟法的一個相關的規定其實"},{"start":304.447,"end":319.234,"text":"執行具體逮捕或解送得使用、借據但是不得逾越必要的程度請問裁量權這個部分在過去的檢察署這邊是怎麼樣的做解說或是警察單位"},{"start":320.697,"end":349.501,"text":"因為執行是在警察所以他要看判斷當時的狀況是不是有這個必要的情形所以就這次的社工的情況來說您認為他有必要要上手銬嗎因為我沒有看到整個案件的情形所以我想這個東西還是可以尊重這個案情比較了解的承辦人員來做必要的判斷今天警政署也有來嗎警政署的代表"},{"start":353.631,"end":371.026,"text":"請局長上台是報告委員我是刑事警察局局長周祐維那這個案子的話因為是當時是依據檢察官的拘票來執行這樣的一個具體的行動那這個具體我們自己有一個辦法是執行具體逮捕、借送"},{"start":372.288,"end":389.387,"text":"使用借據實施辦法裡面有講說如果我們是執行具體逮捕的話是可以用這個手銬但是這個是不能使用這個借據當作作為懲罰的方法同時這裡有提到"},{"start":389.967,"end":409.005,"text":"指要遵守比例原則不能逾越必要程度是 謝謝局長的解說那很重要其實在刑事訴訟法裡面就已經講了你就算是要使用借據要符合比例原則而且也必須要注意到被告或犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽要避免他公然暴露"},{"start":410.166,"end":410.186,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":433.081,"end":451.027,"text":"上課之後他有沒有注意到其實也是要維護到社工的名譽而應該要做一個適當的遮掩但這個部分其實看起來警察是都沒有做到從一開始我們剛剛講是不是使用拘票然後之後再"},{"start":454.808,"end":474.457,"text":"他可不可以上套其實這一連串的問題都凸顯出我們的檢警單位在針對這種犯罪嫌疑人的時候其實做法上面是有違我們現在法律裡面所規定的而且就整個比例原則判斷來講看起來是有明顯的一個"},{"start":475.515,"end":475.575,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":494.614,"end":518.569,"text":"大批的記者在門外守候而且直接的拍攝那麼這個有關於偵查不公開的作業部分看起來法務部其實自己本身是有訂定偵查不公開作業辦法可是我大致上看一下應該說有看了這個偵查不公開作業辦法其實裡面的規定其實都很抽象那不知道這個為什麼"},{"start":520.05,"end":541.243,"text":"就是就法務部這邊沒有要求各個檢查或檢調單位有訂定更細緻的注意要點我現在看到的是警察機關這裡他是有訂定有關於跟新聞媒體的這個注意要點但是檢查但是就是檢調機關沒有那我想請教部長為什麼沒有在"},{"start":544.694,"end":572.112,"text":"我們內部也有一些相關的規定但是偵查不公開作為辦法其實就是很明確的訂定哪些是可以公開哪些不可以公開甚至說要設置一個場所來接受採訪以發言人的制度來對外說明這個我們都有很明確的要求要遵守這個規定我現在看到的只有設置發言的場所但是對於更細節的部分"},{"start":575.514,"end":598.465,"text":"警察機關、警政署這邊訂定的警察機關偵辦、刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開原則的注意要點裡面是訂的更為細緻很多的細節都有訂定所以我在這邊我也希望這個法務部這邊也可以就是比較像是參考警政署所訂的這個注意要點自己的檢調機關也應該要訂定類似的要點"},{"start":601.006,"end":623.428,"text":"還有就是說在之前剛剛前面幾位委員有講的其實你們針對這個偵查不公開也有進行定期的檢討可是很有趣的就是不管是在高檢署、法務部等等自己內部所進行的檢討的案件數非常多但是實際上真的有被處罰的人數卻非常非常少那麼所以我就不知道你們"},{"start":623.848,"end":628.69,"text":"檢討數字多是因為它收集所有報導出來的有關案件的這些文章或是報導內容都要來檢討所以它案件很多因為每一天報紙都有很多個案的一個報導"},{"start":652.796,"end":675.302,"text":"那至於這些是不是有涉及到偵查不公開案件自然會變少那這個少數但是我們還是很深入去探討有沒有違反要負責任的是我認為說可能你們檢討小組裡面也出了一些問題如果說都是自己內部的人在進行檢討而沒有引進引入外部的專家學者甚至媒體一起來"},{"start":676.162,"end":691.309,"text":"進入來討論的話那麼我認為說這樣的偵查不公開可能你未來就算檢討了一千件一萬件也不會有任何的人員的處分這樣的話對於我們要促進我們偵查不公開讓他能夠更重視人權這是沒有注意的所以我希望就是說你們能夠好好的要去檢討有關於偵查不公開作業辦法若違反的話那相關的懲處以及如何能夠將"},{"start":705.416,"end":705.436,"text":"謝謝 請回"}]}},{"id":"150000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8cdcd38fba81a0771b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a6eaafce8f2c626cb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:43:10 - 11:53:12","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":602,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:53:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:43:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時43分）主席，我們請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委早。我剛剛看到很多委員都有質詢關於ETF這件事情，最近這麼熱，好像如果沒有買就跟不上時代潮流，這當然有幾個原因，第一個，我們臺灣的錢大概算是很多；第二個，可能民眾對於這種金融商品的理解度不夠，所以你們也說要做一些相關的政策，我根據剛剛幾位委員的質詢，我有一些問題想要跟您請教。","第一個，剛剛王委員說沒有募集上限這件事情，你說每一檔ETF可以從頭開始募集，一直募集到隨時是嗎？沒有時間點嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，募集期間本來在發行計畫中都有定。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，所以有時間，大概呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：只是我們現階段沒有說這一檔最多只能募集到多少。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，所以他們會先給一個計畫，一般大概會給多久的時間呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請交易所來說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們給他們的募集時間是1個月、2個月、1年、2年？"],["簡總經理立忠：一般募集的期間大概7天左右。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，7天喔！OK。"],["簡總經理立忠：目前來講，這一檔它超過7天，應該有9天、9個營業日。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是有一個時間，但你們現在規定的募集資金是沒有上限的，是嗎？以現在的規定。"],["黃主任委員天牧：同仁表達現在的規定是1個月，但是投信公司可能要自己去評估能力，所以不見得要募那麼長，也許只有一段時間。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是有一個時間的上限嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：最高是1個月。"],["陳委員玉珍：1個月，他也可以7天就說他們募夠了嘛！但你們給他們的金額是沒有上限的嘛！比如說我要這一檔，他先跟你說……"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前沒有規定上限。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們沒有規定，所以他們募到5,000億、1兆也是可以的嘛！現在的規定是這樣子嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有規定上限。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，現在這個情形是這樣，尤其大家對很多東西不瞭解，但是有點像以前，臺灣人很喜歡一窩蜂嘛！比如說看到大家排隊買蛋塔就跟著買。當然還有一個是宣傳，宣傳這個東西就是……尤其剛剛我看主委一直在講，因為配息的關係，符合臺灣人的喜好度，月月配、年年配、日日配，這一種配息的方式。我想請問你，我看到你們的管理後面有講，你們要檢討的部分要加強，包括ETF配息政策是否適當，你們有這樣說嘛！對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是現階段在做的事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！你們要檢討這一段喔！請問你們對他們提出來的配息，也就是他們要提一個計畫，我問的都是很基本的問題，請問他可不可以在配息計畫裡頭說每個月配息2%？可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們只會去討論他們配息的來源是不是合理，但是他……"],["陳委員玉珍：他要配多少，你們……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個請副局長來回答。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們回答一下，你們可以這樣規定嗎？"],["高副局長晶萍：ETF要在他們的公開說明書裡面說明他們的配息政策是怎樣，來源從哪裡來……"],["陳委員玉珍：他可不可以跟民眾保證每個月配息2%？可不可以？或者是……"],["高副局長晶萍：他不能保證。"],["陳委員玉珍：他不能保證還是他可以保證？反正他會不會賺是他的事情，但是……"],["簡總經理立忠：他不可以保證。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可以嘛！他不可以保證會配多少嘛！對不對？"],["簡總經理立忠：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思就是他不能說：我一定會給你2%，或是給你4%或1%，或者他給你1年2%。可不可以這樣保證？定存就可以嘛！那這個可不可以？"],["簡總經理立忠：這不可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可以喔？"],["簡總經理立忠：因為要看這個基金背後的成分股，他配息確實的情形才能……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是，即便這個是ETF的投資，假設後來股票一直往下跌，他也不賺錢，他如果跟百姓答應、跟投資人答應1年就是要給5%、10%好了，他可以這樣做嗎？他可不可以這樣做？"],["簡總經理立忠：不可以，不可以說要配百分之幾，一定要看他實際的……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他不可以這樣說嘛！如果法令規定他不可以這樣說，但現在他們宣傳說：我們一定超過定存！這樣不就表示明顯違法嗎？您知道我在說什麼嗎？你們的規定就是說……因為他說會超過定存，如果沒有違法，一般人看到網紅這樣說就會相信嘛！會相信是因為一般人不會公開叫大家做違法的事情，尤其網紅是這麼有地位、這麼有影響力的人，怎麼會叫大家違法呢？如果網紅說這個超過定存，我剛剛看王委員也有寫到，超過定存什麼的，如果有人公開這樣說，這樣沒有違法嗎？如果你們給他的規定是不可以說可以配百分之幾的話，因為我們這樣看起來應該是可以，他願意虧錢啊！你們聽得懂我說的意思嗎？你現在回答我的是不行嘛！對不對？但問題就是有這樣的宣傳啊！所以這樣的宣傳沒有違法嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個資訊上就不完整。"],["陳委員玉珍：對於資訊完不完整，像我們也不瞭解、不完整，大部分的百姓都瞭解得不完整，問題是你們管的不是百姓收到的資訊完不完整，你們會希望資訊更完整，但是你們管的是做這個的過程當中、募集資金的過程中有沒有違法嘛！如果在你們的規定裡頭是不可以說1個月配多少百分比，或者可以說1年配多少百分比，還是都不行？如果都不能這樣說的話，但他們說會超過定存，定存是大家都知道的，比如說以2%來講，他的意思就是1年一定會給你超過定存，那這樣沒有違法嗎？主委，你聽得懂我的題目嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：剛才交易所總經理跟您報告的是，這種配息只是一種預估，不能夠保證，因為要看成分股未來漲還是跌……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他們可以說，只是在說的過程中要講清楚這只是預估，這樣就可以是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：因為現在看起來大部分的宣傳都沒有說是預估嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們是有一些規定說明不適合用優於定存……"],["陳委員玉珍：不適合跟不行是兩件事喔！不適合是反正我願意做，只要我沒有違法，網紅做什麼、做招募資金的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這邊都是講不得啦！這邊的規定是講「不得」……"],["陳委員玉珍：「不得」是可不可以？以你們現在規定的這個，「不得」、「得」也是「不得」是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：「不得」是不可以啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：是不可以嘛！「不應」和「不得」還是不怎麼一樣喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：「不得有下列行為」，這是在公會的自律規範裡面……"],["陳委員玉珍：那就是不可以嘛！所以如果現在已經有這樣的行為，他就是違背你們的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：公會自律規範第二十一點有講，不得使用優於定存、打敗通膨等相類之詞語為訴求。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以現在公開說這優於定存，就是宣導不實囉？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是我們在這次……"],["陳委員玉珍：是宣導不實還是不是宣導不實？就是他的這個作法，不管他的內容有沒有真的超過，那是後面實質內容的部分，我是說他這個程序有沒有違法？就是他推廣募集的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，就我的身分說有人違法、不違法都不太合適，要同仁去瞭解……"],["陳委員玉珍：我也不是針對特定的黨，我只是說這種樣態的行為是不是合法的？因為你們在裡面都說不得、不得、不得，那我不知道這樣有沒有違法，有還是沒有？如果已經有人這樣做，他違不違法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個跟公會的自律規範是不一樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他只是違反自律，但他沒有違反你們的規定？所以只要不自律，反正沒有關係啦！不自律是處罰的事情啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：不過投信也是依照社會信任才能夠發展。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有！我現在在立法院講的是法律，我就想請教這樣是不是合法，你們要去探討一下，也許你還沒有辦法給我答案，沒關係，至少你讓我知道一下。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，我們會跟公會再討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：你要給我們答案。","對不起，可以再問一題嗎？因為剛剛賴委員有問到，我也很好奇，就是他募集資金的過程，是不是用自己的錢去還那個的部分，比如說利息固定是多少多少，當然可能資本利得會降低，但是他如果一直募，會不會變成像老鼠會那種模式啊？拿後面的錢來補前面的，不過因為你的時間很短，應該不至於吧？你知道我問的題目嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，所以這就是為什麼我們今年1月初訂了一個平準金規範，而且要求業者去遵循。"],["陳委員玉珍：我有看到，平準金就是說他如果願意把這些錢……我知道你規定他配的時候，要分配是多少%、多少%、多少%，但有沒有可能變成我們剛剛一直在問的這種龐氏騙局？我們一直也是很好奇。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想現在不要去連接到龐氏，只是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是拿你的錢來還你自己，有沒有可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實就像基金也會有這個警語，說如果它是配息……"],["陳委員玉珍：警語沒問題，但我一直問的是有沒有可能變成是那樣子？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們現在的規範就是防止這個現象發生，我們1月的規範就是不希望投資人誤以為他拿到的錢，其實是他自己的錢。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委你這樣回答，常常也都是很模糊啦！像剛剛那些問題你都回答得這麼模糊，到底法令可不可以你都不回答清楚的話，百姓會無所適從。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是我的不對啦！但是很多個案我不能夠現在……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要問你個案，我只是問你行為樣態，沒關係，剛剛提的問題我會再跟你們請教。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我們最重要還是要讓社會大眾、投資者瞭解怎樣才是正確的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["陳委員玉珍：還有包括那些所謂的網紅，他們能不能這樣做，也要讓他們知道，這個比宣傳效果更好。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。接著我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.41034375,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.35096875,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.05971875,"end":5.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.164093750000003,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.88971875,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.83784375,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.65159375,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.097843750000003,"end":39.400343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.78846875,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":50.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.82471875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.10721875,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.62909375,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.49784375,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.14284375,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.73221875,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.22034375000001,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.25784375,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.19846875,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.90284375,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.52221875000001,"end":97.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.29846875000001,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.31409375000001,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.16534375,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.18221875,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.96659375,"end":121.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.21034375,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.80909375,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.76659375000001,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.36471875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.46159375000002,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.73471875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.38846875000002,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.26596875,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.49284375000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.24346875,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.29409375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.26846875,"end":196.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.77221875,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.05909375000002,"end":206.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.07596875000002,"end":198.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.73346875000001,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.91471875000002,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.47159375,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.52221875,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.97784375,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.99034375000002,"end":207.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.07846875,"end":216.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.08159375000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.46534375000002,"end":217.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.38034375,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.08409375000002,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.55596875,"end":240.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.12846875000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.02284375000002,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.89534375000002,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.60596875000005,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.87534375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.74284375,"end":278.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.05909375000005,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.71284375,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.10846875000004,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.69096875,"end":315.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.71159375,"end":317.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.80409375,"end":320.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.38596875,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.90846875,"end":327.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.93346875000003,"end":327.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.03471875,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.86096875000004,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":361.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.62846875,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.04596875000004,"end":365.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.43409375000005,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.52659375,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.97284375000004,"end":372.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.24284375,"end":373.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.60971875,"end":376.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.79096875000005,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.40159375,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.60784375000003,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.04221875,"end":387.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.05909375000005,"end":387.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.09284375000004,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.97034375000004,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.03784375000004,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.96596875,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.03346875,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.97846875000005,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.02909375,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.97409375,"end":391.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.02471875000003,"end":394.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.12159375000005,"end":392.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.15534375000004,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.86409375000005,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.23096875000005,"end":394.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.26471875000004,"end":394.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.55159375000005,"end":403.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.78659375,"end":402.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.02284375000005,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.24221875,"end":403.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.25909375000003,"end":403.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.34346875,"end":403.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.42784375,"end":403.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.47846875000005,"end":405.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":409.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.77346875,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.25409375000004,"end":411.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.08471875000004,"end":412.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.15221875000003,"end":414.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.19409375000004,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.46784375000004,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.37409375000004,"end":430.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.67284375,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.60034375000004,"end":434.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.09784375000004,"end":451.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.31284375,"end":437.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.32971875000004,"end":437.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.75159375000004,"end":438.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.14346875,"end":441.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.08284375000005,"end":457.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.20096875,"end":451.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.97659375,"end":465.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.93284375,"end":469.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.69596875,"end":470.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.46784375000004,"end":474.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.78846875000005,"end":472.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.03284375000004,"end":474.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.48846875000004,"end":474.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.52221875000004,"end":474.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.65721875,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.79221875,"end":476.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.48409375000006,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.11221875,"end":483.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.63909375000003,"end":486.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.23346875000004,"end":496.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.21096875,"end":497.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.23596875000004,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.6628437500001,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.6372187500001,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.3872187500001,"end":532.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.3022187500001,"end":541.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.39784375,"end":545.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.7053437500001,"end":547.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.9834687499999,"end":551.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.6115937500001,"end":552.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.0290937500001,"end":557.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.61534375,"end":554.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.42471875,"end":565.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.64784375,"end":562.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.48721875,"end":564.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.0903437500001,"end":576.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.31659375,"end":580.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.0928437499999,"end":577.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.1597187500001,"end":598.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.3447187500001,"end":584.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.69034375,"end":586.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.7309687500001,"end":597.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.21596875,"end":601.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.67159375,"end":599.3972187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.736,"end":4.759,"text":"主席我們請主委有請黃主委委員好"},{"start":14.172,"end":41.138,"text":"這個我們看到我剛看很多委員都有質詢有關這個ETF這件事情最近這麼熱好像如果沒有買就跟不上這個時代潮流那我想到這當然幾個原因第一個我們台灣的錢大概算是很多啦然後第二個可能民眾對於這樣的這種金融商品的理解度不夠所以你們也有說你們要做一些相關的這個政策"},{"start":41.778,"end":64.688,"text":"所以我想我又根據在在根據剛剛幾位委員的這個質詢我想有些問題還有想要跟您請教第一個剛剛那個王委員說這個沒有募集上限這件事情所以你說的是說每一檔的他的這個ETF他每一檔的話他就從頭開始募集可以一直募集到隨時是嗎沒有時間點嗎"},{"start":67.182,"end":82.329,"text":"沒有他募集期間本來在發行計畫中都有定所以有時間大概是說我們沒有限制一段沒有說你這一檔最多只能募集到多少所以說比如說安德銘有沒有給他他會先給個計畫那這中間會不會有一個大概是一般會給多久的時間呢"},{"start":87.043,"end":106.797,"text":"你給他募集的時間一個月、兩個月、一年、兩年?一般募集期間大概七天左右現在目前在講這一檔他超過七天應該是有九天所以他有一個時間你們現在的規定說他的募集時間是沒有上限的以現在的規定"},{"start":112.176,"end":132.641,"text":"同仁表達現在規定是一個月但是他猴心公司可能自己去評估他的能力所以不見得要募那麼長他也許只有一段時間但是你有一個時間的上限嘛是一個月嘛是一個月他可以七天就說我募夠了嘛但你跟他金額是沒有上限的嘛比如說我要這一檔目前沒有規定上限"},{"start":135.222,"end":159.161,"text":"你們沒有規定那它也可以譬如說募到五千億一兆也是可以的嗎是這樣子嗎我們沒有規定上限那現在這個情形是這樣子那現在大家這個也許對很多東西不了解但是有點像以前這個臺灣人很喜歡一窩蜂比如說買蛋塔看到大家排隊就跟著買看這個當然還有一個宣傳宣傳說這個東西就是尤其剛剛我看主委一直在講說比如說因為配息的關係符合臺灣人的這種喜好度"},{"start":162.363,"end":166.688,"text":"我看到你們的管理裡頭後面有講說你們要檢討你們檢討的部分要加強包括ETF配息政策是否適當你們有這樣說嘛 對不對"},{"start":179.478,"end":206.698,"text":"這是現階段在做的事情你們要檢討這一段那請問你們對他的他提出來這個配息就他要提一個計畫他的配息計畫裡頭他可不可以我想請問我問的都很基本的問題請問這個比如他可不可以說我每個月就配息2%可不可以我們只會去討論他配息的來源是不是合理但是他他配多少你們這個請局長來來你們回答一下你們可以這樣規定嗎"},{"start":209.13,"end":230.556,"text":"就是說ETF要在他們的公開說明書裡面說明說他配息的政策是怎樣比如說他可不可以跟民眾保證說我每個月就是配息2%可不可以他不能保證還是說他可以保證反正他會不會專注他的事情他不可以保證他不可以嘛他不可以做他不可以保證說他會配多少嘛對不對"},{"start":231.596,"end":260.976,"text":"意思說他不能說我一定會給你2%或給你4%或給你1%1%或他給你一年2%可不可以這樣保證定存就可以嘛那這個可不可以這不可以因為這個要看他這個基金背後的成分股他配息確實的情形意思我的意思是說即便這個這個ETF他的投資他後來假設投資比如說股票一直往下跌他也不賺錢他還是他如果跟百姓答應跟投資人答應說我就是要給一年就是5%好了10%好了他可以這樣做嗎他可不可以這樣做"},{"start":262.117,"end":279.359,"text":"他不可以說我要配給他一定要看他實際的所以他不可以這樣說嗎他不可以這樣說的話他現在的他不可以這樣如果法定是規定他不可以這樣說他現在的他們的宣傳裡頭說我們一定超過定存這樣不就表示明顯違法嗎"},{"start":281.008,"end":306.15,"text":"你知道我在說什麼嗎如果你們的規定就是說因為他說要超過定存的時候如果沒有違法他會這樣說一般人看到網紅這樣說會相信嘛相信是因為一般人不會公開叫大家做違法的事情尤其網紅這麼有地位的人這麼有影響力的人怎麼會叫大家違法呢所以如果他網紅說這個超過定存我剛剛看到網紅也有寫到超過定存什麼的"},{"start":306.61,"end":323.485,"text":"那如果有人公開這樣說這樣沒有違法嗎?如果你們給他的規定是他不可以說他可以配幾%的話因為我們這樣看起來就覺得他應該是可以啊他願意虧錢啊你們聽得懂我說的意思嗎?他不可以你現在回答我是不行嘛對不對問題是就是有這樣的宣傳啊所以這樣宣傳沒有違法嗎?"},{"start":324.929,"end":342.017,"text":"就是這個資訊上就不完整了資訊完不完整 像我們也不了解不完整吧 大部分的百姓都不完整問題是你們管的不是百姓收到資訊完不完整你們會去希望資訊更完整但是你們管的是這個過程當中募集資金的過程中有沒有違法嘛"},{"start":342.617,"end":362.127,"text":"如果在你們的規定裡頭他是不可以說他一個月配多少包或者他可以說一年配多少包還是都不行如果他都不能這樣說的話那他們去說了我們超過定存定存是大家都知道比如說以2%來講那他的意思就是說我一年一定或是我一個月一定會給你超過一年一定會給你超過定存那這樣沒有違法嗎"},{"start":363.467,"end":380.754,"text":"主委您聽得懂我的題目嗎?我剛才交易所總經理跟您報告也都是說這種配息只是一種預估不能夠保證那其實因為他要看成分股又來漲所以他們可以說但是在所有觀眾如果他說這個只是預估要講清楚就可以是嗎?"},{"start":382.418,"end":410.966,"text":"因為看起來現在的大部分的宣傳都是沒有說是預估吧大概委員這個我們是有一些規定說你不適合用優於不適合跟不行是兩件事喔不適合跟不行啦不適合反正我願意做沒有只要我沒有違法我做網紅我做什麼推我做招募資金的我做這個這邊都是講不得啦這邊的規定是講不得不得是可不可以啊以你們現在的規定是可不得是也是得也是不得是不是不得是不可以啊"},{"start":411.206,"end":434.407,"text":"是不可以嗎?不應和不得還是不怎麼一樣?不得有下列行為啊這公會的自律規範那就是不可以嘛所以如果有這樣的如果現在已經有這樣的行為它就是違背你們的公會自律規範21點裡面講不得有使用優於定存打敗通膨等相類的實際訴訴求所以說現在公開在說優於定存這個就是就是宣導不實囉"},{"start":436.261,"end":457.494,"text":"這也是我們在這次是宣導不實還不是宣導不實他這個做法不管他的內容有沒有就是說他有沒有真的超過了那是後面的實質內容我說他這個程序有沒有違法他這個推廣的這個規範法務在我的身份說有人違法不違法都不太合適要同仁俱來解我也不是針對特定黨我也不針對特定內容我說的只是說這種行為這個樣態的行為是不是合法的"},{"start":465.979,"end":477.96,"text":"因為你們在裡面都說不得、不得、不得但我不知道這樣有沒有違法啊有還是沒有啊如果已經有人這樣做他違不違法所以他只是違反自律但他沒有違反你們的規定"},{"start":479.201,"end":495.155,"text":"所以只要不自律反正沒有關係啦不自律是處罰的事情啦投信也是依照社會信任才能夠發展我現在在這邊立法院講的是法律嘛我就想請教這樣是不是合法你們要去探討一下也許你還沒有辦法給我答案那沒關係那至少你讓我知道"},{"start":496.616,"end":496.716,"text":"財政委員會議"},{"start":519.736,"end":540.96,"text":"不過你的時間很短應該不至於吧所以這就是為什麼我們今年1月初訂了一個評準金規範而且要求業者去遵循我有看到我有看到那你要評準金就是說他如果願意把這些錢都我知道你要規定說他配的時候要分配是多少%多少%多少%那有沒有可能變成是這種我們剛一直在問這種龐氏的騙局我們一直以為真的很好奇"},{"start":541.46,"end":541.76,"text":"我們現在的規範就是防止這個現象發生"},{"start":558.459,"end":577.989,"text":"我們一頁的規範就是不希望投資人以為他拿到的錢其實是他自己的錢因為主委你常常你這樣回答常常都是很有點很模糊啦因為有時候像剛剛那些問題都回答得這麼模糊到底法令可不可以你都不回答清楚的話百姓就會百姓會無所適從啦是我的不對"},{"start":578.049,"end":578.609,"text":"謝謝委員指導謝謝陳玉珍委員的支持"}]}},{"id":"149999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa0d15156c1988be587ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a61a9e1ce118e804a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:36:48 - 11:47:54","影片長度":"00:11:06","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":666,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:47:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:36:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時37分）謝謝主席，我請教育部部長。"],["主席：好，潘部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。去年不幸發生的新北市割喉案，社會各界都很關心，後續教育部以及相關其他部會也啟動了多次的會議、啟動了相關機制的修正，不過我還是希望就去年這個事件的通報細節、事實釐清。我們非常關心第一時間新北傳出案件的時候，學校對外、對媒體發布這是一個美工刀造成的意外傷害，但是根據教育部校安通報的要點，這是屬於緊急事件，2個小時之內一定要完成通報，對不對？所以我想請問當時這個學校有沒有在2小時之內完成通報？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個學校的通報是24小時還是2小時……"],["吳委員沛憶：若它是屬於緊急事故，就我們的通報要點……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，緊急是2小時。"],["吳委員沛憶：當時有沒有在2小時之內完成通報？"],["潘部長文忠：校安這邊在2小時內有接到學校的通報。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們教育部有收到通報？"],["潘部長文忠：校安中心。"],["吳委員沛憶：在我們收到通報的時候……因為我們的通報類別也是有分類的，有意外事件、暴力事件與偏差行為，當時在媒體上面，學校第一時間對媒體說是一個意外，所以我想請問當時我們教育部收到的通報、校安中心收到的通報，通報過來的是屬於意外事件還是暴力事件？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個我再確認一下好了，不好意思！"],["吳委員沛憶：現在有沒有資訊？為什麼我要問這個問題呢？因為我看了我們的通報要點以及後續的處理流程等等，對於是意外事件還是暴力事件，第一個，學校的家長在心理預期上、準備上以及後續的處置可能都會有極大的落差與不同，我認為正確通報的必要性是非常重要，所以我需要確認當時通報給我們的是屬於什麼案件。"],["潘部長文忠：好，跟委員報告，我剛才請同仁確認當時是2小時之內通報，學校通報給校安的是暴力這個種類。"],["吳委員沛憶：就我所知，事件發生後教育部也協同新北市政府教育局召開過檢討會議，我希望教育部能就這部分協助、輔導，讓未來的地方政府去輔導學校，在事件發生當下確認事實之後，再對外發布，因為意外與暴力落差很大，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。在這案件之後，我們也注意到這樣的案件發生其實會造成學生的集體創傷，所以是一個集體性事件，畢竟有這麼多人目睹了！我知道學校原來就有心輔相關資源，在本案發生之後，新北市政府的處置，就我所看的資料來說，學校的心輔人力是不足的，所以啟動了新北市輔諮中心駐班輔導。當案件發生後，校園裡就該案的心輔是如何進行的？"],["潘部長文忠：如同委員所提，我們在第一時間瞭解後，也請新北教育局局長除了對受傷害的孩子，還有行為人以外，其他周邊目睹現況的孩子都要及時輔導。如同委員所說，該學校原來的配置沒辦法面對這個狀況，所以我也請新北教育局一定要讓市府的相關資源及專業人力進到班級裡輔導，而且要持續一段時間。這件事我也跟該校校長做過聯繫，請他一定要讓我們知道在整個過程進行當中相關的措施跟資源，以便能及時協處。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，在教育部的相關規定裡，當學校有需求時，因為各縣市輔諮中心的資源、條件不大一樣，所以學校也可以尋求校外、外部的身心精神醫療資源等等相關協助。就本案來說，學校有沒有尋求外部協助？"],["潘部長文忠：應該這樣說，就這個部分，學校優先請新北的輔諮……"],["吳委員沛憶：輔諮中心？"],["潘部長文忠：因為他們也有相關的幾個類型的專業人員。那時候我跟張局長特別提到，如果需要教育部再擴大提供更多的人力資源，請及時讓我們知道，因為他們在新北……"],["吳委員沛憶：就本案來說，新北輔諮中心是足夠的？如果學校需要尋求外部協助的話，目前有沒有相關流程或SOP？例如當地平常就有建立連結網絡的相關機構、資源、單位，有沒有這樣的名冊清單？"],["潘部長文忠：應該這樣子說，當時為什麼設立輔諮中心？主要就是希望能夠跨校際的，屬於在一個縣市裡，但不一定只是輔諮中心的成員，其他的……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以有這類相關的名冊？"],["潘部長文忠：對。另外，學校比較多的應該都是跟醫療單位有合作契約，但是……"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，我建議這部分是不是可以有明確的流程以及相關的清單？因為臺北市這幾年已經開始建立與民間資源的連結網絡……"],["潘部長文忠：我們再盤點一下在既有機制之下，從這個個案發生，如果有可以再強化的部分……"],["吳委員沛憶：就新北這一案來說，輔諮中心的人力一共是17人，但輔諮中心平常就有例行性業務，所以當突發的意外狀況發生時，需要一定的人力進駐這個單位。倘若意外不是一年一件，尤其後續需要輔導這麼大量的學生，畢竟是集體創傷，也需要長期追蹤輔導，所以對於外部資源的連結，應當可以作為補充的相關資源。"],["潘部長文忠：我們再盤整一下。"],["吳委員沛憶：我建議應該有明確的SOP。另外，在今天的報告裡大家非常關心的是，當學生在校園裡時可以啟動關懷輔導機制，但是在他進到曝險階段或觸法階段，成為少年司法案件之前，中間有一個中介過程。我想中介教育可以成為我們的防線，也許在關懷輔導階段，我們就可以成功地拉住他。不過當他已經進入少年司法案件後，經過相關評估，他也可能需要後續不同的中介措施與方式，所以中介教育是非常重要的。但是我們看到，在中介及少年司法案件中間，有一群少年是中輟生，就我們現在手邊拿到的資料來說，每一年國小中輟生有將近300人，國中中輟生一個年度有將近2,000人，這是屬於未就學業也未就業的少年。現在這一群人由教育部青發署進行輔導關懷追蹤，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，剛才講到中介，我補充一下。事實上並非很多孩子都已經嚴重到成為司法少年……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：目前我們有類似高關懷班機制，有類似慈輝班，還有合作式中途班，這些都還不到……這次我們要強化的是司法少年從少觀所……"],["吳委員沛憶：中介基地是用來協助已經觸法的司法少年？"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們比較……"],["吳委員沛憶：像我現在講的這些中輟生，他只是未就學、未就業，那麼青發署能提供他們什麼樣的協助？因為我們終究希望他們有機會回流，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，剛才所提的都是還在學期間的，包含中輟學生。至於委員現在關心的這一塊，也就是國中畢業以後未升學、未就業的這部分，我請青年署擴大量能，目前服務量已經到三千多位，也就是更希望能去……如果知道孩子準備要重考，類似這種例子我們就不用那麼擔心。如果這個孩子什麼都沒有，那就很需要去做……所以現在青發署以專案在處理未升學、未就業部分，希望這個機制能夠確實掌握到每個個案的狀況。過去的服務量能只有幾百位，我覺得是不夠的！"],["吳委員沛憶：是，沒錯！我看了青發署這幾年相關的處置，沒有錯，每一年會開一次、兩次的跨部會會議，這一群未就學、未就業的青少年絕對需要跨部會橫向聯繫來協助他們，因為我們希望不管他在哪一個階段，都有機會把他們撈回來，讓他們可以回流。所以除了跨部會會議外，還有分區會議，也希望教育部是不是可以協助，讓青發署針對未就學、未就業的這一群青少年，讓我們有機會能夠把他們拉回來，讓他們有機會能夠回流到校園。這部分我認為我們需要加強橫向的聯繫。"],["潘部長文忠：好，這部分我們再持續努力。從過去幾百位到現在三千多位，我想那個連結……最主要是幫忙他能往下走，這是我們的終極目標。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.738468750000003,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.37096875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.53096875,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.94409375,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.652843750000002,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":52.174718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.478468750000005,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.93409375,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.75534375,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.82596875,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.43346875,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.64346875000001,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.93034375,"end":78.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.86659375,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":88.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.37159375,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.89846875,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.33284375000001,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.84409375000001,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.43409375,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.93159375,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.14034375,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.15971875,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.20971875,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":179.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.50534375,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.80471875,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.53534375,"end":203.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.71659375000002,"end":203.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.79659375,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.69909375,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.05159375000002,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.78659375,"end":313.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.75409375000004,"end":333.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.74471875,"end":320.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.24659375000005,"end":321.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.09284375000004,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.82659375000003,"end":357.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.47471875,"end":347.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.00471875,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.47096875,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.80409375000005,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.81096875000003,"end":382.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.95846875,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.57721875000004,"end":400.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.16284375000004,"end":416.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.14721875000004,"end":440.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.52909375,"end":434.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.68784375,"end":441.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.39221875000004,"end":446.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.86409375000005,"end":452.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.85471875,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.49596875000003,"end":458.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.62596875,"end":478.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.69034375,"end":490.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.44784375,"end":517.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.02596875,"end":545.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3490937500001,"end":529.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.22846875,"end":562.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.9409687500001,"end":550.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.4709687500001,"end":560.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4578437499999,"end":562.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.5590937500001,"end":562.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.60971875,"end":604.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.64346875,"end":563.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.05534375,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.4822187500001,"end":596.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.40909375,"end":653.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.4640937500001,"end":630.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.05971875,"end":657.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.12221875,"end":665.6315937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":12.239,"text":"市委主席 我請教育部部長好 潘部長 謝謝"},{"start":16.133,"end":33.786,"text":"委員好部長好去年不幸發生的新北市的歌喉案社會各界都很關心那後續我們教育部以及相關其他部會也啟動了多次的會議也啟動了相關機制的修正不過我還是希望就去年這個事件的通報"},{"start":35.087,"end":40.428,"text":"其中的細節事實想要做一個釐清因為當時我們非常關心的是因為第一時間新北傳出案件的時候學校對外對媒體發布的說這個是一個這個是美工刀造成的意外傷害但是根據我們教育部的校安通報的要點這個是屬於緊急事件兩個小時之內一定要完成通報對不對"},{"start":62.833,"end":72.557,"text":"所以我想請問當時這個學校有沒有在兩小時之內完成通報?若它是屬於緊急事故就我們的通報要點"},{"start":82.972,"end":84.953,"text":"請問當時我們收到通報的時候因為在我們通報類別裡面也是有分類的"},{"start":100.959,"end":123.728,"text":"有意外事件有暴力事件與偏差行為那因為當時媒體上面學校第一時間的時候對媒體說是一個意外所以我想請問當時我們教育部這裡收到通報校園中心收到通報通報過來的是屬於意外事件還是暴力事件委員這個我再確認一下好了不好意思現在有沒有資訊"},{"start":137.479,"end":150.433,"text":"為什麼我要問這個問題呢?因為我看了我們的通報要點以及後續的處理的流程等等你是意外事件還是暴力事件第一個對於學校的家長"},{"start":152.284,"end":166.022,"text":"他在心理的預期上以及準備上以及後續的處置他可能都會有極大的落差以及不同所以我認為正確通報的必要性是非常重要所以我需要確認當時通報給我們的是屬於什麼案件"},{"start":169.626,"end":186.015,"text":"跟委員報告我剛才請同仁確認當時兩小時之內的通報學校通報給校園的是暴力是暴力事件對暴力這個總統就我所知在事件發生之後我們教育部也協同新北市政府教育局也召開過檢討會議這部分我希望我們教育部能夠來協助輔導未來的地方政府要去輔導學校在事件發生的當下確認了事實之後再來對外做發布"},{"start":198.641,"end":213.457,"text":"因為意外跟暴力它是落差很大的好不好好謝謝委員提醒謝謝那在這個案件之後呢我們也注意到說像這樣的案件發生它其實是會造成"},{"start":214.558,"end":217.379,"text":"學生的集體的創傷它其實是一個集體性的事件因為這麼多人目睹了那學校我們原來就有新府相關的資源在本案發生之後在新北市的處置因為就我看的資料學校裡面的新府人力是不足的"},{"start":233.365,"end":236.866,"text":"我跟委員報告這組委員所提的在第一時間我了解後我也請新北教育局局長一定要除了受傷害的孩子還有行為人以外"},{"start":257.675,"end":257.695,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":273.207,"end":275.568,"text":"市府相關的資源、專業的人力能夠進到這些班級裡面去做這方面而且要持續一段時間這個事情我也跟當校長也做過一點一定要讓我們知道"},{"start":289.173,"end":289.193,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":316.937,"end":322.061,"text":"學校是優先請新北福茲的這些因為他本身也有相關幾個類型的專業人員那時候我也跟張局長特別提到如果需要在教育部再擴大更多的人力資源請及時讓我們知道所以就本案來說他的"},{"start":335.452,"end":338.315,"text":"復制中心是足夠的那如果說他需要學校需要來尋求外部的協助目前我們有沒有相關的流程有沒有相關的SOP例如說在這個當地的地區已經平常就有建立連結網路的這些相關的機構資源單位有沒有已經有這樣的名冊清單了"},{"start":357.471,"end":373.946,"text":"我應該這樣子提到因為為什麼會有當時在設立輔資中心他其實主要就是希望能夠跨校際的屬於在一個縣市裡面能夠他不一定是指在輔資中心的成員你其他的所以我們有這樣相關的名稱那另外一個比較當然有涉及到我們學校也會跟比較多的應該都是跟醫療單位有合作的契約"},{"start":383.114,"end":385.435,"text":"委員長我是建議這個部分我們是不是可以有明確的這個流程以及相關的清單因為台北市這幾年已經開始有在建立跟民間的這個資源連結的網絡從這個個案發生如果有可以再強化的部分"},{"start":400.959,"end":400.979,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":417.159,"end":417.379,"text":"在校園裡面我們可以啟動關懷輔導機制"},{"start":446.926,"end":451.847,"text":"然後呢在他進到曝險階段或是處罰階段成為少年司法案件之前中間有一個中介的過程那中介教育一個他是可以成為我們的防線也許他在關懷輔導階段"},{"start":465.731,"end":466.251,"text":"在中介以及少年司法案件中間"},{"start":492.056,"end":515.916,"text":"有一群少年他是中輟生就我們現在手邊拿到的資料每一年我們國小的中輟生有將近300人國中的中輟生一年度有將近2000人這是屬於未就學也未就業的這個少年那現在這一群人在我們教育部裡面是由清法署來進行輔導關懷追蹤是不是"},{"start":518.158,"end":518.178,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":536.835,"end":536.855,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":556.406,"end":556.566,"text":"國中畢業以後衛生學、衛教業"},{"start":573.889,"end":573.909,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":596.94,"end":597.04,"text":"主席"},{"start":618.263,"end":621.984,"text":"他們絕對也是需要我們來自跨部會橫向的聯繫來協助他們因為我們希望在他們哪一個階段裡面我們就有機會把他們撈回來有機會讓他們可以回流所以我看我們除了有跨部會的會議我們有分區的會議我希望我們教育部是不是可以來協助讓清法署針對未就學、未就業的這一群青少年我們是有機會"},{"start":645.828,"end":645.888,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa0648cc276a3a0f35d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a631728d78b6cecfc35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:36:49 - 11:45:44","影片長度":"00:08:55","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":535,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:45:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:36:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時37分）謝謝，有請次長還有署長。"],["主席：請次長還有署長。"],["林次長國顯：游委員早。"],["游委員顥：早。再次也要跟次長說明一下，署長跟署內的同仁也非常用心，一開始就有說明目前氣象署相關的一些業務，還是要特別跟次長講一下署內是用心。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：面對極端氣候，我們準備好了嗎？因為像今天許多委員其實都關心氣候變遷的問題，這個問題其實我相信不僅是在氣象署，大家非常熟悉，也非常重視，包括次長您也是成大，我的母校航太系的教授，你也在民航局當局長，所以您對於氣候變遷也一定是非常的重視。在上個禮拜我們交通委員會，我跟何欣純委員也跟著副院長去參加APPU會議，討論的議題是有關於氣候變遷，在目前來講，我記得在1991年到2002年平均每年有25.3個颱風，輕颱大概有3.2個，但是就如剛才林沛祥委員所講的，單日降雨量在這5年來是不斷的增加，所以包括一些旱災或是農損其實近年來是益發嚴重。同樣的，在這10年平均氣溫也上升了1.6度，推估在本世紀末夏季長度將會增加到150天左右，冬季有可能會縮短20到40天內，所以氣候變遷造成的影響非常嚴重。接著要就教在2023年10月5號行政院核定了災害防救基本計畫，有關於氣象的部分有三大方針，請教次長，這個部分行政院核定的三大方針，你可不可以稍微做一下說明？"],["林次長國顯：我是不是可以請署長？"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，請署長。"],["程署長家平：我們在災害防救基本計畫策略2.1裡面，特別對於未來氣象署怎麼去面對災害防救相關的作為裡面有三個部分：第一個部分是加強監測系統、觀測系統的量能，希望能夠掌握現在的狀況；第二個部分是強化相關預報作為，裡面包含模式解析度的提升及在作業上面怎麼樣產出災害相關預警的訊息；第三個部分是加強我們互相的溝通，就是跟民間以及跟政府相關的單位怎麼加強相關資訊的溝通及傳播。"],["游委員顥：謝謝署長，您講的部分是針對氣象署的部分，在行政院的版本，主要三大方針是災害調適、數位轉型及強韌復原，它有許多項目，氣象署是其中之一。我想問一下，app部分我們也提了三個草案，當然這次的出訪、出團也對我們的國會外交有一個非常好的成果，江啟臣副院長帶隊，這次也有很好的成果，就是第一次的實體外交。我想就教一下，目前來講，國際災害的部分，其實我們在國際外交處於一個比較弱勢的情況之下，相關的通知機制目前氣象署跟其他國家有做一個直接的聯繫平台嗎？"],["程署長家平：有關國際聯繫的部分，其實氣象及地震都有，在氣象的部分，特別針對颱風，在太平洋這邊有一個聯合颱風警報中心，在整個太平洋區域裡面如果有颱風發生，他們會提供相關的訊息；另外還有一個海嘯的警報中心，如果有發生地震引發海嘯的部分也會國際聯繫。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝署長。我接著要請問，它會直接通知氣象署還是會通知環境部的氣候變遷署？"],["程署長家平：因為這個是作業面，所以它會直接通知氣象署。"],["游委員顥：那我想問一下，在今天的質詢，氣候變遷署相關的部分大家今天討論這麼多議題，氣候變遷署今天有人來嗎？"],["程署長家平：應該沒有。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，交通委員會這次的名單上其實沒有氣候變遷署。所以現在凸顯一個問題，在機關的部分，其實一直以來大家在氣象觀測都非常仰賴、仰重氣象署的報導，我想請教次長，現在環境部新設的氣候變遷署，讓我們大家感受到疊床架屋的問題，因為氣象署是直接讓大家去做預報，可是氣候變遷署是針對氣候的部分做研究，包括節能減碳或是排碳，或是氣候變遷在國際上的連結。所以要怎麼樣讓氣候變遷署的業務跟交通部的氣象署做有效連結？這樣是不是疊床架屋？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，這個其實很重要，但是政府之間的工作其實有分工的，氣象署本身跟氣候變遷署會有聯繫，因為氣候變遷署剛成立，我在民航局長任內也帶同仁去跟蔡署長做過交流，就航空方面的節能減碳跟氣候變遷的部分跟他做交流。所以基本上蔡署長那邊是掌握全國各個企業跟各個部會的作業，氣象署或是其他部門也各有各的資訊提供，所以這中間倒是多互動，然後……"],["游委員顥：我相信一定有互動，但因為民眾看到第一線的其實還是在於氣候的播報，包括第6代的儀器，相信這個超級電腦一定也可以讓……"],["林次長國顯：民眾感受是……"],["游委員顥：本席在這裡還是要提出，氣候變遷署是要因應全球暖化，可是交通部一直以來是主管氣象，所以在這個部分其實是疊床架屋，以及在平行聯繫上確實會有落差，就以今天的委員會為例，討論那麼多的氣候變遷，但實際上是聚焦在氣象署，而氣候變遷署完完全全是置身事外。我也坦白講，未來像這樣的研究等等，如何能夠銜接氣象署，我相信交通部這邊可能要再跟環境部這邊溝通。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。因為氣象的部分畢竟有些是micro、有些是macro，而scale的部分氣候變遷署會相對大一點，時間尺度也比較長。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，但第一線還是會影響大一點。"],["林次長國顯：對，還是要多互動，因為有些資訊要交流。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，就加強這個機制。","再來我想接著請教TASA國家太空中心，目前委員的部分是哪幾個委員？其中有沒有包含交通部部長？"],["林次長國顯：我個人是太空中心董事之一，但是因為剛上任還沒有開過會，所以基本上交通部也有involve，那太空中心會跨相關的領域部門。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，我就簡短地提，因為目前來講氣象署其實非常用心，但目前氣象衛星的研發人員是全部委外，而國家太空中心其實在衛星的研發或是在結合氣象的監測上，我覺得確實要重視交通部包括氣象署的一些專業，這樣才能夠有效提升天氣預報，也來銜接氣象專業，如何能夠應用在太空上面，以及未來民眾第一線的需求上。謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：這是應該的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，游委員發言完畢。","現在請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.15971875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":23.824718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.36471875,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.674093750000004,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.197218750000005,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.28909375,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.385343750000004,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.40471875,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.42159375,"end":147.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.34971875000002,"end":148.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.36659375000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.45909375000002,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.73471875,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.69659375,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.06471875000003,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.39721875,"end":251.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.41784375,"end":265.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.82909375,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.25409375000004,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.57284375,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.97721875,"end":302.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.78909375,"end":357.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.43034375,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.79784375,"end":363.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.82221875000005,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":373.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.01471875000004,"end":384.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.78096875,"end":395.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.32846875,"end":391.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.93596875000003,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.48409375,"end":406.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.44159375000004,"end":396.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.59346875,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.89159375,"end":407.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.92096875000004,"end":408.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.62534375,"end":450.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.29409375,"end":449.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.00284375,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.57659375000003,"end":451.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.63096875,"end":453.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.44096875,"end":458.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.70659375,"end":455.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.91284375000004,"end":461.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.49909375000004,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.70534375000005,"end":478.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.43721875000006,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.72784375000003,"end":482.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.94721875000005,"end":486.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.30096875000004,"end":491.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.76846875,"end":530.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.32784375,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.12096875,"end":532.85909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.639,"end":8.2,"text":"請次長還有署長"},{"start":21.974,"end":23.495,"text":"那面對極端氣候準備好了嗎下一頁"},{"start":49.426,"end":72.496,"text":"因為其實像今天的話大家許多委員區都關心著氣候變遷的問題那這個問題其實我相信不僅是在我們氣象署大家是非常熟悉也非常重視包括次長那您也是成大我的母校橫泰系的教授那您也在民航局當局長那所以您對於氣候變遷也一定是非常的重視"},{"start":73.436,"end":101.417,"text":"那在這一次上個禮拜的時候我們交通委員會我跟何新淳委員也跟著副院長來去參加APPU還這一次的會議那討論的議題還是在於有關於氣候變遷那在目前來講中央氣象署我記得在1991年到2002年他其實平均每年有25.3的這個颱風那會清台的大概會有3.2但是呢"},{"start":101.997,"end":123.602,"text":"就如剛才林培祥委員所講的單日降雨量在這5年來是不斷的增加所以說包括一些旱災或是農損其實在近年來的話是一發嚴重那同樣的在這10年平均氣溫也上升了1.6度推估在本世紀末夏季的長度將會增加到150天左右冬季有可能會縮短到20到40天內"},{"start":125.442,"end":147.971,"text":"所以說在這個氣候變遷造成的影響是非常嚴重那接著叫做救教那在2023年10月5號那行政院核定了災害防救基本計畫有關於氣象的部分三大方針想請教次長那這個部分的話行政院核定了三大方針那您可不可以稍微做一下說明我是請署長好我們先請署長"},{"start":149.705,"end":163.051,"text":"我們是在這災害防救基本計畫策略2.1裡面特別對於未來氣象署怎麼樣去面對災害防救的相關的作為有三個部分第一個部分是加強我們監測系統觀測系統的量能希望能夠掌握現在的狀況"},{"start":168.453,"end":178.726,"text":"第二個部分是強化我們相關的預報的作為那裡面包含我們的模式解析度的提升以及我們在作業上面怎麼樣去產出相關的災害相關的預警的訊息"},{"start":183.732,"end":208.995,"text":"第三個部份是加強我們的互動的互相的溝通就是跟民間以及跟我們的相關的政府相關的單位怎麼去加強相關的資訊的溝通和傳播三個方向謝謝署長那您講的部分是針對氣象署的部分那在行政院的版本它主要三大方針在災害調適、數位轉型及強韌復原三大方針來講它有許多的項目那其中氣象署是其中之一"},{"start":209.736,"end":237.071,"text":"那我想問一下在APP我們在提了也提了三個的一個草案那當然說這一次的出訪、出團其實也對我們的國會外交也有一個非常好的一個成果那江啟臣副院長帶隊這一次有很好的成果也是第一次的實體外交那我想就教一下就是說像目前來講國際災害的部分那因為我們其實在國際的外交是處於一個比較弱勢的一個情況之下那相關的通知的機制"},{"start":237.852,"end":241.53,"text":"目前氣象署跟其他國家有做一個直接的聯繫平台嗎?"},{"start":243.54,"end":271.339,"text":"有關國際聯繫的部分我們大概分成其實氣象和地震都有在氣象的部分其實特別針對颱風其實在太平洋這邊有一個聯合颱風警報中心那這個部分是在整個太平洋的這個區域裡面如果有颱風發生他們也會提供相關的訊息另外還有一個海嘯的警報中心那海嘯警報中心如果有發生地震引發海嘯的部分那也會國際聯繫"},{"start":273.34,"end":282.847,"text":"那謝謝署長那我接著要請問那他是會通知直接通知氣象署還是會通知環境部的氣候變遷署"},{"start":285.72,"end":302.293,"text":"因為這個是作業面的所以他會直接通知氣象署那所以啊那我想問一下在今天的這個質詢的時候那我想問一下就是那氣候變遷署大家今天討論那麼多的議題那氣候變遷署今天有人來嗎?"},{"start":305.816,"end":322.637,"text":"好沒關係目前的這個交通委員會這次的名單上那其實是沒有氣候變遷屬那所以說我們現在凸顯到一個問題就是說在機關的部分其實一直以來大家在氣象觀測都非常的仰賴仰中氣象署的一個報導"},{"start":323.658,"end":346.586,"text":"那我想要請教一下次長那現在來講在環境部他是新設的這個氣候變遷署但是他有讓我們大家感受到這個疊床架屋的這個問題因為氣象署他是直接讓大家去做預報可是在這個氣候變遷署他是針對這個氣候的部分他在做研究包括不然減能減碳或是排碳或者是說氣候變遷以及在國際上的連結"},{"start":347.586,"end":363.119,"text":"那這個部分怎麼樣可以讓這個氣候變遷署的這些業務跟我們交通部的氣象署能夠去做有效連結那它是不是跌闖駕霧包委員這個其實很重要但是政府之間的工作其實有分工的"},{"start":364.62,"end":390.351,"text":"氣象署本身跟氣候變遷署會有聯繫因為氣候變遷署剛成立蔡署長我在民航局長任內也帶同仁去跟他做過交流就航空方面的減塵減碳跟氣候變遷的部分跟他做交通所以基本上蔡署長那邊是掌握全國各個企業跟各個部會的作業氣象署或是其他部門也各有各的資訊提供"},{"start":392.112,"end":420.086,"text":"所以這中間倒是多互動然後其實我相信一定有互動但是因為在這個民眾我們所第一線的其實還是在於氣候的薄包那包括了第6代的這個儀器其實相信這個超級電腦一定也可以民眾感受是氣象是有的但是在本期在這還是要提出就是說在這個氣候變遷署他是要因應這個全球暖化可是在交通部其實一直以來是主管著氣象"},{"start":420.706,"end":449.203,"text":"那所以說在這個部分的話其實他節省價物跟他的平行聯繫上確實會有落差就以今天的委員會為例來講那確實來講那討論那麼多氣候變遷那實際上去交代氣象署但是那個氣候變遷署他其實完完全全是置身事外的那我也坦白講如果說未來像這樣子的一個不管是研究也好那如何能夠再銜接在氣象署我相信這個交通部這邊可能還要再跟黃金部這邊溝通"},{"start":450.323,"end":478.044,"text":"謝謝委員因為氣象的部分畢竟有些是micro有些是macro那那個scale氣候變遷署會相對大一點時間尺度也比較長沒關係但是還是第一線會影響到對還是要多互動因為有些資訊要交流好那沒關係就加強這個機制那再來我想接著請教一下TASA國家太空中心那目前他的委員相關的部分是哪幾個委員其中有沒有包含交通部部長"},{"start":479.724,"end":493.689,"text":"我個人是董事之一但是因為剛上任還沒有開過會所以基本上交通部有引爆那太空中心會跨相關的領域部門好那沒關係我就簡短的提就是說"},{"start":494.389,"end":515.778,"text":"因為目前來講氣象署其實是非常的用心但是在這個氣象衛星的研發人員目前是全部委外那在目前來講這個國家太空中心啊那其實在這個衛星的這個研發或是在集合在氣象的這個監測上我覺得確實要重視到交通部包括氣象署的一些專業"},{"start":516.798,"end":530.766,"text":"那這樣子才能夠有效的來提升海天氣預報那以及來銜接銜補在這個氣象專業如何能夠運用在不管是太空上面以及包括在未來的民眾第一線的需求上謝謝委員這是應該的謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733afca82a6a45cd032b5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a62615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:27:39 - 11:36:05","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":506,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:36:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:27:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時27分）謝謝主席。我們請氣象署署長。"],["主席：請程署長。"],["程署長家平：委員好！"],["許委員智傑：署長好！首先對氣象署表示肯定及感謝，就是之前我曾經質詢，總統府開放參觀時間，氣象署是不是可以一併配合？也讓所有博愛特區，如果有人去附近參觀的話，尤其是我們中南部上來的，沒有辦法分很多次，可以一次多參觀幾個單位，當時我也要求氣象署能夠配合總統府開放的時間開放，現在也有執行，所以謝謝氣象署能夠在推廣教育的時候配合總統府，能夠給中南部多一個機會，首先表示感謝。","再來我請教署長，您知道世界氣象日是哪一天嗎？"],["程署長家平：3月21日，就是春分的時候。"],["許委員智傑：3月21日？好像日期有記錯，3月23日，你看你自己這麼重要的節日，人家環境部有世界環境日，海洋有世界海洋日，我們氣象也有世界氣象日，所以署長連日期都記錯表示我們好像不太重視這樣子一個日子，你看各部會都是趁自己特殊的節日去宣傳自己所做的事情，我想現在的時代光是做事恐怕還不夠，要讓民眾能夠認同我們到底做了哪些事，所以對於本署、本部所做的事情能夠加強推廣其實是相當重要的一個工作。","我再提出一個，就是我們中南部，你看南部氣象中心有所謂的氣象、地震、天文、海象等這些展示區，我們高雄好像沒有這樣一個地方讓民眾可以參考跟學習。"],["程署長家平：高雄的部分上次委員有特別提到，我們回去稍微統計了一下，過去5年我們在高雄地區有幾個相關的活動，第一個部分是在科工館，我們跟科工館合作，裡面有常設氣象、地震展示等相關場所，另外有幾個特別的活動跟高雄的大學來做相關活動，還有一個比較特別的是，我們有做到校服務，高雄縣市在過去5年，我們大概辦了24場特別是針對偏鄉地區，因為偏鄉地區的教育資源比較稍微缺乏，針對偏鄉地區做24場相關的教育活動，裡面包含師生大概有一千多人參與活動，簡單跟委員報告。"],["許委員智傑：OK，所以首先跟署長講，我們再看這顆地球，其實這顆地球我看了真的是蠻喜歡的，你去看一次，你就會發現所有地殼怎麼變動、所有氣流怎麼流動，我就講過以前高中在讀地球科學就是少了這顆地球，要不然搞不好會去讀地球科學系，我們希望能夠多讓民眾接觸跟教學，科普教育很重要。所以你可以看到氣象署跟海科館有攜手合作一個海洋與海象科普教育，這個是氣象署有進駐到海科館做一些展示，對不對？"],["程署長家平：是的，其實也不只是進駐展示，還包含了相關的活動、演講活動、科普教育活動。"],["許委員智傑：好，那科工館到現在已經很久了，對不對？可不可以有機會再加強？"],["程署長家平：我們最近才跟海科館正式簽一個MOU。"],["許委員智傑：我就是看到海科館，所以我就想到科工館啊！"],["程署長家平：我們可以再跟科工館做討論，之前有跟它們做一些討論，除了地震相關設施之外，在氣象的部分也可以去做一些加強，我們會來跟它討論。"],["許委員智傑：科工館每年超過二百萬人次參觀，真的是南北差距很大，高雄距離又這麼遠，所以我一直希望高雄可以多一些中央部會的資源進駐。海科館其實基隆離臺北比較近，對不對？那我們高雄離臺北這麼遠，氣象局又升格為氣象署，不管是資源還是人員都增加了，是不是高雄的科工館可以再多給一些不一樣的資源？或者是再設一個、或者是原來的再升級？有沒有這個可能？"],["程署長家平：是，我們跟科工館討論來努力；另外，因為我們高雄氣象站其實從漁港搬到公園裡面，也在討論未來在都會公園裡面相關的設施是不是能夠也做一些氣象展示。"],["許委員智傑：好，在哪裡我們可以研究，但是我要求就是高雄再加強進駐或者是設置，至少有這個方向可以讓我們看得到成果，這樣可以嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，我們來加強。"],["許委員智傑：給我時間。"],["程署長家平：我想回去可能二、三個禮拜，我們就二個禮拜好了……"],["許委員智傑：好。"],["程署長家平：回去把後面的計畫討論出來，然後跟委員做報告。"],["許委員智傑：好，因為我們高雄人真的是……其實我們號稱看到星星、月亮、太陽都可以判斷方向，對不對？也要輪我們高雄人多這個機會。","另外，其實最後一點就是，我剛剛提到的世界氣象日，署長，以後要更重視了，你知道我們有辦相關的活動嗎？氣象署。"],["程署長家平：目前是在我們南區氣象中心針對世界氣象日有辦一個氣候行動最前線，其實是一個科普教育的活動。"],["許委員智傑：所以就是要多推動嘛！因為像我們民意代表現在做事情如果沒有宣傳，人家都不知道你做什麼事，所以該多宣傳還是要宣傳，我想活動還是要加強。"],["程署長家平：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個活動其實是我們問了你們國會聯絡人，才知道臺南有辦這個活動，要不然恐怕連署長都不知道，所以相關的活動，我想科普教育非常重要，也希望署長能夠多推動，這樣子OK嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，我們來加強。"],["許委員智傑：最後我再看高雄可以看天文的只有一個點，對不對？署長知道在哪裡嗎？"],["程署長家平：我不知道。"],["許委員智傑：很簡單的一個望遠鏡瞭望臺，那個真的是很貧乏，在我們楠梓公園那裡，那個真的是，你看臺北的天文館一進去那種感覺就不一樣，那我們高雄就望遠鏡在那邊看，真的是差很多、差很多，所以如何在高雄推動氣象相關的或是天文相關的科普教育，我希望除了剛才提到的地點、資源的設置跟投入之外，類似這樣一個活動跟概念是不是請署長在二個禮拜內也一道思考進去？"],["程署長家平：是，可以，我們來進行。"],["許委員智傑：可以，好，謝謝。最重要的就是我需要看到具體的成果、具體的規劃，而不是只是一直在研究，這樣好不好？"],["程署長家平：是，好。"],["許委員智傑：那我就拭目以待，謝謝署長。"],["程署長家平：謝謝委員。"],["主席：許委員發言完畢，也謝謝許委員關心三民區科工館的相關議題。跟許委員做個簡單報告，教育部已經把科工館整體軟硬體的改善列為今年三大新興計畫之一，教育部已經通過，現在要送到國發會，那我們希望能夠儘快通過，讓整個科工館能夠全面提升相關的軟硬體及綠美化的設施，謝謝許委員關心本選區的議題。","現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6890937500000001,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.40159375,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.00659375,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.69346875,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.86409375000001,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.74534375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.72409375000001,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.74096875000001,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.77471875,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.82534375,"end":73.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.94346875000001,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.98971875000001,"end":76.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.24659375,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.82034375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.36846875,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.28784375000001,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.15971875000001,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.69909375,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.73659375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.32721875,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.38471875,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.21784375000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.17971875,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":138.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.21596875,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.43909375,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.56096875,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.80096875,"end":150.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.64034375,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.45409375,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.60596875000002,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.01221875000002,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.17159375,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.18409375000002,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.51971875,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.43471875,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.20221875000001,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.09659375,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.49721875,"end":235.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.75784375,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.54159375,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.76846875,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.32096875000002,"end":250.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.42596875,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.10034375000004,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.13409375000003,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.12096875000003,"end":265.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.31034375,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.71909375,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":276.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.90721875,"end":282.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":287.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.20534375,"end":292.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.03159375,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.48284375000003,"end":299.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.79846875000004,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.70409375,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.31471875,"end":323.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.35596875000005,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.91659375,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.92034375000003,"end":334.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.88159375000004,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.70346875,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.89221875000004,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.46159375,"end":351.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.12346875000003,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.43909375000004,"end":358.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.53971875,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.59721875,"end":375.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.25909375000003,"end":379.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.33034375,"end":384.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.33784375000005,"end":388.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.48909375000005,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.69909375000003,"end":399.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.79159375,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":409.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.60409375,"end":418.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.71659375,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.31471875000005,"end":425.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.93909375000004,"end":425.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.98971875,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.59721875,"end":426.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.76596875,"end":427.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.17096875000004,"end":428.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.50409375000004,"end":432.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.95034375,"end":436.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.78534375000004,"end":438.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.44346875,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006,"end":449.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.78346875000005,"end":452.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.83784375000005,"end":455.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.22971875,"end":458.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.13221875000005,"end":483.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.84971875,"end":487.26284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.41471875,"end":496.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.45534375000005,"end":498.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.41721875,"end":503.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.12096875000003,"end":504.88034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.372,"end":3.756,"text":"謝謝主席我們請氣象署署長請陳署長"},{"start":16.28,"end":33.159,"text":"首先對氣象署先表示肯定跟感謝就是之前我曾經質詢就是總統府開放氣象署時間開放時間參觀氣象署是不是可以一併配合也讓所有的博愛特區如果有人去"},{"start":34.02,"end":61.641,"text":"父親參觀的話尤其是我們中南部上來的沒有辦法說分很多次可以一次多參觀幾個單位當時我也要求氣象署能夠開放就是配合總統府開放的時間那現在也有執行所以謝謝氣象署就是能夠在推廣這個教育的時候能夠配合總統府能夠給中南部多一個機會所以這個首先表示感謝"},{"start":62.822,"end":75.62,"text":"我請教署長您知道世界氣象日是哪一天嗎?3月21號就是春風的時候3月21號好像日期記錯3月23號"},{"start":81.714,"end":100.863,"text":"你看你自己這麼重要的節日人家環保環境部有世界環保日環境日那海洋世界海洋日那我們氣象也有世界氣象日所以署長連日期都記錯表示我們好像不太重視這樣子一個日子"},{"start":102.503,"end":126.138,"text":"你看各部會都是趁自己特殊的節日去宣傳自己所做的事情我想現在的時代光是做事恐怕也不夠要讓民眾能夠認同我們到底做了哪些事所以對於本署、本部所做的事情能夠加強推廣其實是相當重要的一個工作"},{"start":128.291,"end":146.32,"text":"我再提出一個是我們中南部我們中南部事實上你看我們南部氣象中心有所謂的氣象、地震、天文、海象這些展示區那我們高雄好像沒有這樣子一個地方可以讓民眾可以參考跟學習"},{"start":149.264,"end":169.786,"text":"高雄的部分上次委員特別有提到我們回去稍微統計了一下在過去5年我們在高雄地區的有幾個相關的活動第一個部分是在科公館我們跟科公館合作那裡面有長射的氣象地震的展示的相關的場所"},{"start":170.287,"end":188.738,"text":"那另外有幾個特別的活動跟這個高雄的大學來做相關活動還有一個比較特別的是我們有在做道校服務在高雄縣市在過去5年我們大概有辦了24場特別是針對偏鄉地區因為偏鄉地區的教育資源比較稍微缺乏"},{"start":189.578,"end":217.564,"text":"針對偏鄉地區做24場的相關的教育活動那裡面包含這個師生的部分大概有1000多人都有參與這個相關的活動這個是簡單跟委員報告所以首先就是跟署長講我們再看這一顆地球其實這一顆地球我看了真的是蠻喜歡的你去看了一次你就發現所有的地殼怎麼變動所有的氣流怎麼流動"},{"start":219.114,"end":247.896,"text":"那我就講過以前高中在讀地球科學就是少了這顆地球要不然搞不好要去讀地球科學系那我們希望說能夠多讓民眾接觸跟教學這個科普教育很重要所以你可以看到氣象署跟海科館有攜手合作一個海洋及海象科普教育這個是我們氣象署有進駐到海科館做一些展示嘛對不對"},{"start":249.581,"end":266.361,"text":"是的,其實也不只是進駐展示還包含了相關的活動、演講活動那科工館現在已經很久了對不對可不可以有機會再加強我們最近才跟海科館正式簽一個MOU我就是看到海科館所以我就想到科工館"},{"start":268.279,"end":292.159,"text":"科工館我們可以再跟科工館去做討論那之前有跟他們做一些討論就除了地震的相關的設施之外那在氣象的部分也可以去做一些加強我們科工館每年超過200萬人次參觀那在高雄真的是南北差距很大那距離又這麼遠所以我一直希望說高雄可以多一些中央部會的資源可以進駐所以"},{"start":294.534,"end":308.629,"text":"海科館其實基隆離台北比較近對不對那麼高雄離台北這麼遠那氣象局又升格為氣象署不管是資源還是人員都增加了是不是高雄的科工館可以再多給我們"},{"start":309.77,"end":334.421,"text":"一些不一樣的資源或者是再設一個或者是原來的再升級有沒有這個可能是我們來跟客戶公園討論來努力那另外因為我們高雄氣象站其實從漁港搬到這個公園裡面也在討論在未來在這個在都會公園裡面的相關的設施是不是能夠也做一些氣象的展示"},{"start":334.921,"end":348.216,"text":"好那是不是在哪裡我們可以研究但是我要求就是在高雄在加強進駐或者是設置至少有這個方向可以讓我們看得到成果這樣可以嗎?是我們來加強給我時間"},{"start":353.954,"end":368.541,"text":"我想回去我們可能兩三個禮拜就兩個禮拜好了回去把這個後面的計畫討論出來然後跟委員做報告好因為我們高雄人真的是其實我們號稱看到星星月亮太陽都可以判斷方向對不對也要讓我們高雄人多這個機會"},{"start":376.297,"end":388.105,"text":"那另外呢其實最後一點就是那個我剛提到的這個世界氣象日 署長以後要更重視啦你知道那個我們有辦相關的活動嗎 氣象署"},{"start":389.7,"end":417.773,"text":"目前是在我們南區氣象中心針對世界氣象日有辦一個這個就是氣候行動最前線其實是一個科普教育的活動所以就是要多推動嘛因為像我們民意代表現在做事情如果沒有宣傳人家都不知道你做什麼事所以該多宣傳還是要宣傳所以呢我想活動還是要加強那這個活動其實可能我們問了你們國會聯絡人才告訴你說臺南有辦這個活動要不然恐怕連署長都不知道"},{"start":419.563,"end":444.43,"text":"所以相關的活動我想科普教育非常的重要也希望說署長能夠多推動這樣子OK嗎?是我們來加強那最後再看我們高雄可以看天文的只有一個點對不對在哪裡?署長知道嗎?很簡單的一個那個望遠鏡瞭望台那個真的是很貧乏在我們蘭子公園那裡"},{"start":446.474,"end":469.934,"text":"那個真的是你看台北的天文館一進去那種氣那種感覺就不一樣那我們高雄就在那邊看真的是差很多差很多所以就如何在高雄推動我們的氣象的相關的或是天文的相關的科普教育我希望除了剛才提到的這個"},{"start":471.095,"end":495.956,"text":"地點資源的設置跟投入之外那類似這樣子一個活動跟概念是不是請那個署長說兩個禮拜這個也一刀思考進去是可以我們來進行可以哈好謝謝了我最重要的就是說我需要看到具體的成果具體的規劃而不是只是一直在研究這樣好不好"},{"start":497.603,"end":503.289,"text":"是。好。好。好。那我就拭目以待。謝謝署長。謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"149996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a29876472e9f216ab5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a6c6f1c4c3a8b85f695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:18:50 - 11:27:25","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":515,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:27:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:18:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時18分）謝謝主席。有請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["邱委員若華：署長好。"],["程署長家平：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：署長，去年9月15號的時候，中央氣象署進行揭牌儀式的時候，署長有表示過，臺灣氣象產業發展為其中一項重點工作，也期待透由法制營造氣象產業發展的有利環境。氣象署已經著手進行氣象法的修訂，也提到將在氣候變遷的議題上面，與環境部還有國科會進行密切地合作，共同提供我國氣候變遷的基礎科學資訊。請問程署長，有關氣象法修法的進度為何？具體版本的重點為何？"],["程署長家平：的確，這個氣象法修法茲事體大，因為這次的確修得比較大，所以其實我們已經在前年開始啟動這件事情，前年的部分我們有邀請相關的業界，還有學者專家，來做相關的初步討論，去年的時候特別召開了學者專家的諮詢會議，所以去年已經對氣象法的母法部分，還有我們現在氣象法裡面有八個子法的部分，做了初步的修訂，今年我們會refine這件事情，就是把它做得更完整；因為在氣象法這個修訂裡面特別增加了對促進氣象產業發展的章節，還有相關儀器的標準化，所以這個部分會有新增的子法，都會在今年來做。","我們預計的時程大概是這樣子，4月的部分會有一個初稿，6月的時候會大概有一個定稿，8月的時候會有公聽會，希望透過這樣的程序能夠在我們的初稿出來之後跟我們的民眾或者是我們的學者專家有更多的互動。"],["邱委員若華：好，瞭解。那協助氣象產業發展，中央氣象署的角色為何？如何營造對氣象產業發展的有利環境？"],["程署長家平：這件事情我們的思考是這樣子，因為已經成為氣象署了，所以它需要從整個國家氣象發展的觀點來看這件事情，在這裡其實剛剛前面有別的委員有提到，就是氣象署與我們的氣象產業怎麼去做互動，這件事情我們目前的狀態是這樣子，有關產業環境的部分，包含了相關的修法，另外一個部分，還有加強我們與產業的互動，這個部分我們其實在110年的時候也推動由我們的民間成立了臺灣氣象服務聯盟，透過臺灣氣象服務聯盟來蒐整我們民間所有的意見，臺灣氣象服務聯盟裡面的成員包含了30個團體、27個個人，裡面可以蒐整所有我們民間的意見，算是窗口。"],["邱委員若華：好，這邊提到的是業務。","再來我想請教署長，有關氣候外交，因為整個氣候變遷帶來的衝擊相當的嚴峻，包括地緣政治，還有國家領土的完整性、水資源，還有能源、糧食等問題，為了要解決這些問題，本席認為氣候外交是臺灣參與國際社會重要的一塊，這邊要請問署長，中央氣象署在氣候外交能發揮哪一些貢獻？還有光靠中央氣象署進行氣候外交絕對是不夠的，要如何跨部會的進行合作？"],["程署長家平：這件事情我們目前已經在做的一個部分是和美國的國家海洋大氣總署做相關的合作，去強化我們有關整個氣候測報的能力，這是一件事情；另外一件事情，我們在APEC的架構之下，因為在APEC我們是有full member，所以在APEC的架構之下我們和韓國有合作，因為韓國現在是亞太氣候中心所在，在APEC架構下有一個叫做APCC，就是亞太的氣候中心，我們目前是亞太氣候中心裡面非常重要的算是donate的member，就是我們的氣候模式、相關的產出是有提供給亞太氣候中心，其實去年我們也邀請亞太氣候中心在臺灣開了一個國際研討會，大概有10個國家、有200人參加，再透過這個國際研討會去做相關的互動；另外還有一個部分，就是不同國家的部分，譬如我們在國科會的架構之下和菲律賓其實有一個叫做VOTE的計畫，在這個計畫裡面我們也協助菲律賓，提供有關熱帶地區相關災害風險的相關資料，那也是一個氣候型的相關資料，有提供給他們。"],["邱委員若華：是，署長提到的是災害型的。","那在業務報告也提到申辦數值天氣測報高速運算電腦建設計畫，前面很多委員都有提到，這對於提升極端天氣預報的精準度，還有對於防災、漁業、農業、林業、水資源、健康、生活、氣象等，都有應用服務價值，結語也提到氣象署會持續努力推動多項重要的業務發展計畫，貼合各界的使用需求。要請教署長如何讓這些資料更方便被取得，結合民間的創新能量，廣泛的使用在各產業的領域？"],["程署長家平：跟委員報告，有關高速電腦，事實上，是我們在預報作業的核心，所以那個部分要持續加強，有了這個相關的硬體之後，我們在軟體的部分會持續的去精進；有關傳播的部分，也是非常重要，因為相關的預報作業資料產出之後，我們必須要透過很多的管道傳遞給民間，目前所有的，除了我們的官網之外，還有包含我們的app，還有我們的Facebook，並且我們跟地方政府去做相關的聯繫，重要的部分就是怎麼樣讓這些資訊能夠被各個不同的領域去做有效運用，所以除了跟地方政府聯繫之外，我們也跟很多政府機關去做相關的合作，並且也跟我們的產業去做合作。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝署長。這邊有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林次長國顯：邱委員早！"],["邱委員若華：次長好！上週三交通委員會考察桃園國際機場，部長有表示在3月20日的時候會提交3月3日桃機跑道歲修導致嚴重塞機的檢討報告，王部長也表示相關的單位都很專業，可是確實有大意的情況。請問次長，3月20日能如期交出檢討報告嗎？"],["林次長國顯：應該可以，我們這幾天都已經密集檢討了。"],["邱委員若華：應該可以，好。","再請教次長，上週五你們依照當天的考察決議送有關跑道施工協調會的處理，初步就如部長講的，大家都很專業，但是有大意的情況，那要如何讓各單位都上緊螺絲呢？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，這個案子其實很單純，工程單位在思考跑道的修復分好幾種情況，它必須要判斷這個工程施作會不會影響到營運，因為這是一個營運中的機場，它不是一個全新的機場，所以提出各種工程方案的時候，相關的業務部門必須要就對航班的影響以及航管相關配套措施能做到多少先預做規劃，這個就是計畫性的作為，那當施作以後，中間碰到不如計畫運作而不能順利運轉的時候就會有應變，所以事實上我們也有應變措施在，譬如我們後續的航管及邊邊的流量管制都是應變作為，所以這一整套我們認為還是要從源頭處理，因為每一件事情的發動從源頭思考規劃更周延，協調更完善，會避免未來這類事情的發生。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝次長。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：邱委員發言完畢。","現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.1353437500000005,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.67784375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.29596875,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.91971875,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.28596875,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.96471875,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.102843750000005,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.30909375,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.540968750000005,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.135343750000004,"end":133.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":142.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.18159375000002,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.81409375,"end":201.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.07534375,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":214.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.20409375000003,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.26659375000003,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.21846875000003,"end":234.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.98159375,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.74471875,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.78471875,"end":314.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.31096875000003,"end":319.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.80784375,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.07721875000004,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":348.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.97221875,"end":353.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.93346875000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.03471875,"end":354.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.76034375,"end":354.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.77721875000003,"end":354.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.94596875,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.30534375,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.03471875,"end":408.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.16909375,"end":412.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.18596875000003,"end":412.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.20284375,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.23659375000005,"end":412.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.70909375,"end":420.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.28596875000005,"end":424.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.52159375,"end":432.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.79034375000003,"end":435.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.74346875000003,"end":440.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.31221875000006,"end":445.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.07096875,"end":452.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.19221875000005,"end":460.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.58346875,"end":462.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.45659375,"end":470.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.59159375,"end":462.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.79409375,"end":462.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.04721875,"end":463.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.60721875,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.56284375,"end":491.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.29159375,"end":500.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.21846875000006,"end":506.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.51721875000004,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.99346875000003,"end":512.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.40659375,"end":514.0772187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.81,"end":6.353,"text":"謝謝主席,有請署長"},{"start":21.302,"end":34.675,"text":"蘇長在去年9月15號的時候中央氣象署進行揭牌儀式的時候蘇長也表示過臺灣氣象產業發展為其中一項重點工作那也期待透由法治營造氣象產業發展的有利環境"},{"start":37.117,"end":55.148,"text":"氣象署已經著手進行氣象法的修訂也提到將在氣候變遷的議題上面還有與環境部還有國科會進行密切的合作也要共同提供我國氣候變遷的基礎科學資訊請問陳署長有關氣象法修法的進度為何還有具體的版本重點為何"},{"start":58.004,"end":74.171,"text":"的確這氣象法修法知識體大那因為這次修的確修得比較大所以其實我們已經在前年開始啟動這件事情所以前年的部分我們有邀請這個相關的業界還有學者專家來做相關的這個初步的討論"},{"start":75.111,"end":99.887,"text":"去年的時候特別召開了學者專家的這個諮詢會議所以去年已經對氣象法的母法部分母法部分還有我們現在氣象法裡面有八個執法的部分做了初步的修訂今年我們會refine這件事情就是把它做得更完整那因為氣象法裡面在這個修訂裡面特別增加了對促進氣象產業發展的章節所以這個部分呢還"},{"start":104.47,"end":133.485,"text":"還有這個相關的儀器的相關的標準化所以這個部分會有新增的執法都會在今年來做那我們預計的時程大概是這樣子4月的部分會有一個出稿那6月的時候會大概有一個定稿8月的時候會有公聽會那希望透過這樣的程序能夠跟在我們的出稿出來之後能夠跟我們的民眾或者是我們的學者專家能夠有更多的互動"},{"start":134.654,"end":135.716,"text":"那如何營造對氣象產業發展的有利環境?"},{"start":144.38,"end":164.525,"text":"這件事情我們的思考是這樣子因為這個已經成為氣象署了所以他需要從整個國家氣象發展的觀點來看這件事情那在這裡呢其實剛剛前面有別的委員有提到就是氣象署跟我們的氣象產業怎麼去做互動那這件事情我們目前的狀態是這樣子"},{"start":165.905,"end":193.074,"text":"就是有關產業環境的部分包含了相關的修法另外一個部分還有加強我們跟產業的互動所以這個部分我們其實在110年的時候也推動成立了就是由我們的民間成立了這個氣象台灣氣象服務聯盟透過台灣氣象服務聯盟來收整我們民間所有的意見那台灣氣象服務聯盟裡面的成員包含了30個團體27個個人"},{"start":195.595,"end":214.345,"text":"那裏面他可以去收整所有我們民間意見的這個算是窗口好那這邊提到的是業務那這邊我想請教署長就有關氣候外交因為整個氣候變件帶來的衝擊相當的嚴峻包括地緣政治還有國家領土的完整性水資源還有"},{"start":215.245,"end":234.128,"text":"能源、糧食等問題為了要解決這些問題那本席認為氣候外交是臺灣國際社會中參與重要的一塊那這邊要請問署長中央氣象署在氣候外交能發揮哪一些貢獻然後還有光靠中央氣象署進行氣候外交覺得是不夠的要如何跨部會的進行合作"},{"start":235.334,"end":251.852,"text":"目前這件事情我們目前已經在做的事情一個部分是跟美國的國家海洋大氣從屬做相關的合作去強化我們有關這個整個的氣候的測報的能力這是一件事情另外一件事情我們在APEC的架構之下"},{"start":252.352,"end":253.353,"text":"韓國全球APCC亞太氣候中心"},{"start":272.271,"end":295.771,"text":"算是斗內的Member就是我們的氣候模式相關的產出是有提供給亞太氣候中心其實去年我們也邀請亞太氣候中心來在台灣開了一個國際研討會大概有10個國家有200人參加在透過這個國際研討會去做相關互動那另外還有一個部分就是不同的國家的部分譬如說我們在國科會的架構之下"},{"start":296.371,"end":313.814,"text":"跟這個菲律賓其實有一個叫做vote的這個計畫在這個計畫裡面我們也協助菲律賓提供他有關熱帶地區相關的這個災害風險的相關的資料那也是一個氣候型的相關的資料在提供給他們"},{"start":314.395,"end":338.18,"text":"是,署長提到就是災害型的那在業務報告也提到深半數值天氣預報天氣測報的高速運算電腦建設計畫那前面很多委員都有提到那這對於提升極端天氣預報的精準度還有對於防災、雨業、農業、林業、水資源、健康、生活、氣象等都有應用服務價值那菅義也提到氣象署會持續努力推動"},{"start":338.9,"end":352.244,"text":"多項重要的業務發展計畫貼合各界的使用需求請教署長如何讓這些資料更方便被取得那結合民間的創新能量那廣泛的使用在各產業的領域"},{"start":354.025,"end":382.606,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關高速電腦事實上是我們在預報作業的核心所以那個部分要持續加強那有了這個相關的硬體之後我們的軟體的部分會持續的去精進那有關傳播的部分也是非常重要因為相關的預報作業的資料產出之後我們必須要透過很多的管道可以傳遞給民間那目前所有的有除了我們的官網之外還有包含我們的APP"},{"start":383.426,"end":405.161,"text":"還有我們的facebook那並且我們跟這個地方政府去做相關的聯繫那重要的部分就是怎麼樣讓這些資訊能夠被各個不同的領域去做有效應用所以除了跟地方政府聯繫之外我們也跟很多的政府機關去做相關的合作並且也跟我們的產業去做合作OK好謝謝署長這邊有請次長請次長"},{"start":413.108,"end":435.594,"text":"市長好,上週三交通委員會考察桃園國際機場那部長也表示在3月20號的時候會提交3月3號桃機跑道稅休導致嚴重塞機的檢討報告那王部長也表示相關的單位都很專業可是確實有大意的情況請問市長3月20號能如期交出檢討報告嗎應該可以我們這幾天都已經密集檢討應該可以好"},{"start":437.074,"end":452.507,"text":"那再請教次長那上週五你們依照當天的考察決議送有關就是跑道施工協調會的處理嗎那初步就如部長講大家都很專業但是有大意的情況那要如何讓各單位都上緊螺絲呢"},{"start":454.464,"end":469.759,"text":"這個案子其實很單純工程單位在思考一個跑道的修復分好幾種情況那他必須要判斷說這個工程施作會不會影響到營運因為這是一個營運中的機場他不是一個全新的機場"},{"start":470.666,"end":499.392,"text":"那所以提出各種工程方案的時候呢相關的業務部門必須要就對航班的影響以及航管相關配套措施能做到多少先預作規劃這個就是計畫性的作為那當計畫性作為失作以後中間碰到不如計畫運作而不能順利運轉的時候就會有應變所以事實上我們也有應變措施在譬如說我們後續的航管跟這個邊邊的這個流量管制"},{"start":499.932,"end":499.952,"text":"謝謝委員．"}]}},{"id":"149995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa3911de77f1aae2325cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a608cdbbd6f32ddafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:33:00 - 11:44:25","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":685,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:44:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:33:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1129,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時33分）好，我們一樣請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您辛苦了！但是碰到這個問題，我還是這樣覺得啦，您還是責無旁貸，我想我們現在就針對今天會發生這樣的事情來討論，我們該怎麼樣解決，這個才是我們未來要做的事情。因為我之前在網站上看到加強社會安全網的一個廣告，我覺得有點諷刺，就是「把社會安全網的漏洞補起來，把過去安全網沒接住的人找出來」，這一句話現在看起來真的是有點刺眼，所以昨天我們看到您的報告，真的不知道你們在講什麼，不過剛剛你們有提了新的報告，所以這個部分我就不再提。那麼我們現在先討論一下，現在你們知道收養的評估機制要改、兒少法要修，是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請教部長，在修法之前，你們要地方依據什麼法律來執行？因為如果沒有弄好，我想這段期間也是一個空窗期，部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說在第一點的改變，出養的評估機制目前是訂在由媒合機構來做評估，但是在還沒有修法完成之前，我們就會要求地方政府要加入這一個評估，這個就不需要有法律的規範，所以這個媒合機構仍然要去做評估，但是有兩種方式，一個就是事後，你的評估報告事後要經過社會局審查，另外一個就是你要做評估，如果需要實地去訪視的時候，社會局就必須要派員一起去做這個評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那中央是擔任什麼工作？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個本來就是在地方去執行，那中央政府……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你覺得地方有能力處理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：中央就是要找地方來把這件事情講清楚，說以後我們就是要這樣做，因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情，這樣子的話……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到監察院的報告，針對這件案子，我們兒少保護的三級預防政策與業務歸由衛福部三個署負責，但是缺乏整體的連貫，現在又把這個球丟回去地方，我認為地方目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西。"],["薛部長瑞元：有，一定有這個能量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您確定？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就有，本來就可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席在這邊建議，衛福部還是要擔起責任，雖然是他們來審核，那我們的機制在哪裡？衛福部的角色又是什麼？到時候我希望部長這邊給社會大眾一個明確的說法，好不好？不要讓外界覺得我們今天碰到問題就把責任推給地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是推責任，而是本來就應該是它的責任，因為執行面就是在地方，中央的話會去做督導，每年或每半年或每季，它會把這一個相關的東西報上來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我懂部長的意思，但是我現在站在地方的立場，我跟您報告，你們要換成地方做這個出養評估，那麼地方就要生出人力。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分是不是會增加社工的工作量？"],["薛部長瑞元：這本來就屬於脆弱家庭，他本來就是應該要去做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題是現在我們的社工人員夠嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是因為機制上面有問題，他把這些事情都丟給這個媒合機構去做，現在問題是在這裡。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以就是人手不夠嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：不一定是人手不夠，是把它推出去就對了，我講難聽一點就是這樣子啦，這不應該是這個樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得啦，我們社工的工作量會不會太大？"],["薛部長瑞元：就增加這個部分的話是不會，因為這一類的家庭叫脆弱家庭，本來他就要去做一些評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，夠不夠這個問題我們都可以再重新來談……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為憑良心講，各個地方的狀況不一樣，有些地方可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題，我想部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方，在人員不足的地方，你有什麼具體的作法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：社安網的部分，對於人力非常的重視，所以我們定期都會做一個盤點，聽取各個縣市招募人力的問題何在，然後做出一些改善的措施。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這邊有一個想法，就是每個地方、每個地區都有鄰里長，其實鄰里長的部分，我覺得可以試著來訓練或者是邀請他們一起來上課，來協助這個部分的巡視，他不一定要做什麼，我要講的就是他不需要做到專業的部分，但是不是可以透過鄰里長這部分來協助？當地方上有類似這樣的家庭時要多多關注、多多回報，建立一套完整的機制，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：鄰里長本來就是社安網網絡的一環，但是他所負擔的責任是比較輕的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，但是因為我們是從地方起來、從基層起來，所以我發現很多鄰里長搞不清楚，他們在這方面的資訊是相對不足的，所蒐集到的資訊確實是不夠的，就算碰到也不知道該怎麼辦，針對這個部分，希望由部長這邊將安全網的網絡建立完整一點，不要讓他們空有名份卻不做事，或者是沒有人去管，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該要訓練啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：這次的保母虐童不是第一次發生的事件，風險其實是蠻高的，我們是否有從保母體系的問題進行過通盤檢討？"],["薛部長瑞元：針對保母的選擇、保母的資格、條件及訓練等等，這些本來就有，如果有需要加強，我們當然會再加強，不過我要向委員報告，通常這種加強訓練是可以針對那些可能發生疏失的案件加以防止，但是對於那種惡意、故意的案件，即使再加強訓練也沒有太大的功用，必須要是第三方或第四方加強監督，讓他不敢去做這種事情，這樣才是真正解決的辦法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得對於保母的訓練及資格的認定都應該要有一套完整的機制。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然，這個本來就有，而且如果……"],["邱委員鎮軍：訓練當然是一回事，但是在實際工作時是否會面臨到和現在同樣的問題，目前還不曉得，當然你也不曉得，所以我認為我們是不是要經常進行評估，不要讓民眾在聘請保母時就像是在抽盲盒一樣，運氣好就找到好的、運氣不好就抽到不好的，我覺得政府有必要針對這個部分做一個妥善的管理。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分當然是可以加強，也就是我剛剛提到的，平常的訓練以及考核，我們也一直都有在做，但是對於這種惡意的，特別要有一個機制來處理、預防。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部裡面會發許可給媒合機構，對不對？是從這邊申請的，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：身為委託單位，部裡面的監督管理責任除了一年檢查一次之外，三年也要評鑑一次，對不對？還有什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，我們不是委託的單位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是誰委託？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是給予許可，核定它有資格做這件事情，這是由我們來核定的，但是每一個個案，社會局要交給哪一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然是媒合，由你們發給許可，雖然你們不是委託單位，但執照是部裡面發的，所以你們有責任嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會定期做評鑑。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在的管理辦法是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會定期做評鑑，每年去做業務……"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久？我這樣講，除了一年檢查一次、三年評鑑一次，還有什麼嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：各種收出養案件都會有一些會議來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我的看法是這樣，這些孩子沒有父母在身旁，政府當然有責任讓這些孩子平安長大，這是我們最終的目的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：衛福部既然是主管機關，本席希望你們對於評鑑及檢查的內容要多多琢磨，讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我今天的報告就特別提到這一點，針對媒合機構的許可辦法，我們會重新再做盤點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。","現在開始處理臨時提案，共計有13案，請一併宣讀。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告主席，我們沒有拿到提案。"],["主席：我們先休息5分鐘，讓部長看一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：我先質詢。"],["主席：他們要看提案。"],["蘇委員清泉：聽我講就好。"],["主席：我們先休息5分鐘，讓部長看一下。","休息（11時45分）","繼續開會（11時52分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請議事人員宣讀。（參閱附錄）","一、","目前無論從任何年齡層來看，原住民族地區死亡率皆高於一般國民。以2018～2022年統計數字分析：新生兒在原住民族地區的死亡率為每千人4.67人，鄉鎮區則為每千人2.23人；若以年齡較大的15～19歲來看，原住民族地區死亡率為每10萬人58.75人，而直轄市及縣轄市則為29.79人，原住民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民之兩倍。","雖然，衛福部自民國112年11月起，開始推出全國兒童「幼兒專責醫師制度」，「幼兒專責醫師」服務內容：由醫師整合3歲前嬰幼兒常見的醫療照護項目，包括預防保健、預防接種、膽道閉鎖（大便卡）篩檢追蹤、通報轉介（牙齒塗氟、兒少保護、發展遲緩）、居家訪視等等，但應該針對原住民族地區嬰幼兒更為強化保護。","綜合以上，爰提案要求衛福部應於全國「幼兒專責醫師制度」之內，特別針對原住民地區新生兒死亡率偏高問題研擬積極改善方案，並於2個月內，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告。","提案人：盧縣一　　王育敏　　陳菁徽","二、","現行規定下，嚴格限制保母領取「托育補助」時雙方之親屬關係，彼此須為三親等以外之親屬，方得領取，否則保母僅得領取「育兒津貼」。（法源依據：《直轄市、縣（市）政府辦理未滿二歲兒童托育公共化及準公共服務作業要點》「…二、托育提供者應具備下列資格之一：(一)依兒少權法第二十六條第二項第一款、第二款規定領有居家式托育服務登記證書，且收托三親等以外幼兒並提供日間、全日、夜間之居家托育人員。）","但許多原鄉及偏遠地區因幅員遼闊，情況特殊，應予特別規範。以桃園市復興區為例，雖然於2023年10月已經設置區域內唯一一家公立托嬰機構，但因部落間距離遙遠，家長接送不易，若一概要求奔波送托，反而導致家長困擾，且父母如果自身具有保母資格，照顧自身嬰幼兒時卻僅得從「托育補助」及「育兒津貼」兩者擇一，也有違政府政策美意。","因此，爰提案要求衛福部積極與縣市政府協商，放寬限制，使此等偏遠地區下，具有保母證照家庭之父母得以同時領取「托育補助」及「育兒津貼」，並於2個月內，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告。","提案人：盧縣一　　陳菁徽　　王育敏","三、","有鑑於衛福部所提「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」報告，內容僅兩頁有關虐兒案，文中充斥「研議」、「強化」、「盡速」等空洞字眼，完全未見還原真相，釐清問題的檢討與具體做法，更未見福部負起應有的責任，且有故意混淆「司法調查」及「行政調查」之嫌；表面看似完整規範，但實際執行上卻漏洞百出，企圖甩鍋給社工、地方政府、文過飾非的報告，此種心態，恐將個案演變成系統性風暴，基此，爰建請做成決議，「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」報告應予退回，要求衛福部針對上述缺失深自檢討並提出具體改進做法，重新再送社會福利及衛生環境委員會審議。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　涂權吉　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿　　邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔","四、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、每年平均發生六千件暴力對待、平均薪水又僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。又社工於工作過程中，易涉民、刑事糾紛或法律訴訟，動輒成為媒體新聞焦點，遭「肉搜」，違反偵查不公開或刑事訴訟法之對待。","爰要求內政部及法務部，針對執法過程中，如何保障社工個人隱私及人權，提出檢討與精進作為，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","五、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、每年平均發生六千件暴力對待，工作環境壓力甚鉅。惟社工平均薪水僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。又社工於工作過程中，涉入民、刑事法律案件，其高額訴訟成本與漫長訴訟過程，恐使社工人員難以負擔。若衛福部無法提供協助，致使社工求助無門，將嚴重打擊社會工作者士氣，影響社會安全網穩定性甚鉅。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，參考勞動部委託法律扶助基金會之專案，提出支持社工涉訟協助機制。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","六、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、平均每年需遭受六千件暴力事件對待，工作環境壓力甚鉅。惟社工平均薪水僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。","考量衛福部針對家外安置兒童，將增加訪視頻率，對社工人力需求將大幅且持續增加，為落實計畫並維持社工人員穩定性。爰要求衛福部於一個月內，提出增加訪視制度之詳細執行計畫、人力規劃、與預算規劃，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","七、","台北市一名1歲大男童剴剴（化名）遭到一對劉姓保母姊妹聯手施虐，不僅腿被打到骨折變形、指甲被拔光、牙齒被打斷，就連生殖器也遭燒到黑掉，全身體無完膚休克慘死，引起社會公憤，為預防兒童受虐情況發生，爰要求衛福部於一個月內，研議在收出養制度中，社福機構或保母應每月一次帶孩童到鄰近衛生所或社區診所進行健康檢查，健檢費用及掛號費用由政府編預算支出，每件計價，而不是健保支出。要求醫師做紀錄存檔，一發現有問題就即時通報衛福部，這樣就能早發現早處理，絕對不能再發生像剴剴這樣的悲劇。並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出專案報告，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","八、","案由：針對兒福聯盟社工疑似未盡探訪之責，導致孩童遭凌虐致死，媒體報導社工因長期人力不足業務繁瑣，造成在巨大案量負荷下壓縮案件的訪視時間。如遇訪視對象有意隱瞞或態度保留，及難在有限時間資源中掌握全貌。社工人力不足是全國性、制度性議題，爰建請衛福部 於一個月內依最新法規賦予社工之業務，重新盤點全國之真實社工人力需求，同時盤點「全國社會安全網計畫」目前社工缺額狀況。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍　　陳菁徽","九、","案由：有鑒於民眾反應國小兒童健康檢查相關程序過於繁瑣，造成民眾不便等情形，經查證後發現，我國國小兒童健檢多由學校自行委外，並交由診所協助檢查，此健檢方法對於都市地區的國小兒童家長已有反應不便之處，對於偏鄉地區亦可能造成不小的困擾，另外關於健檢後有需要回診或適當矯治的情形，該回診率的掌握度也不足，是否有達成國民小學學生健康檢查實施辦法，基於暸解國民小學學生生長發育狀況，早期發現疾病與體格缺點，並施予矯治，且妥適安排教學活動，以增進學生健康的立法目的，不無疑義，據此基於保證兒童身體健康權益，建請衛福部及教育部於一個月內，共同瞭解現況及研議國小兒童健檢改善方案。","提案人：王正旭　　林月琴　　陳　瑩","十、","基於近期發生之劉童遭保母虐死事件，為極力防止該事件再次發生，衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題。請衛福部立即檢討兒童出養前之照顧與評估機制，並修訂家外安置處理原則；並請衛福部針對《直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則》有關居托人員建立，應改為要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視輔導狀況良好保母名單，以照顧安置個案。前述工作請於一個月內完成。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：陳　瑩　　王正旭","十一、","基於近期發生之劉童遭保母虐死事件，為極力防止該事件再次發生，衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題。請衛福部向兒福聯盟針對劉童兒虐致死案提供相關檢討報告，供本委員會委員審視；並於一個月內公告建立居托服務中心與媒合機構共案準則，以明確行政程序。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：陳　瑩　　王正旭","十二、","有鑑於出養男童遭保母虐死案，引起外界高度關注，更突顯社會安全網各環節出現系統性問題，衛福部初步調查，收出養媒合機構社工的訪視可能不踏實、敏感度不足或過度信賴照顧人員的良善，未來將強化社工之專業知能及對兒童虐待之敏感度與辦識能力，檢討社工例行訪視頻率等。然中央實應與地方政府充分配合，落實相關教育，調整各自角色與任務使之更臻明確。爰此，提案要求衛福部應嚴格要求地方政府落實執行督導業務，並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告。","黃秀芳　　王正旭　　陳　瑩","十三、","鑑於兒虐涉及相當多面向，如出養男童遭保母虐死案涉及兒童出收養、兒少保護和居家托育管理三個面向，於地方局處可能由不同單位主責，國家實應將兒童相關事宜統合辦理。未免將來因缺失而延誤相關案件的處置時間，爰提案要求衛福部應將相關通報制度調整並公告，未來不論家內家外的兒童虐待事件，都需向保護司通報，以利各單位及時介入處置。","黃秀芳　　王正旭　　陳　瑩"],["主席：現在開始處理。","請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["李簡任技正中月：委員好。針對臨時提案一的部分，業務單位這邊建議將第三段第一行的「幼兒專責醫師制度」修改為「優化兒童醫療照護計畫」，並將最後一行的「專案報告」改為「書面報告」，以上。"],["主席：提案委員，可以嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：可以。"],["主席：同意，那就修正通過。"],["李簡任技正中月：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第二案有沒有意見？"],["簡署長慧娟：第二案的最後一段是不是可以建議修正為「爰提案要求衛福部研議並修正兒童及少年福利與權益保障法，放寬親等限制」，因為後面的「此等偏遠地區」可以同時領取托補及育兒津貼涉及整個全面的部分，而且現在我們的托補與育兒津貼只能夠擇一領取，這涉及整體制度，偏遠地區的這一塊也涉及整體資源的部分，所以我們建議是不是可以把這句話刪除？至於在2個月內，因為放寬親等限制還涉及到要修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法，所以這個部分是不是可以在文字上做調整？最後就是在2個月內提出書面報告？"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["盧委員縣一：OK。"],["主席：好，修正後通過。","第三案主管機關有意見嗎？其實與上午通過的一樣嘛！"],["簡署長慧娟：對。"],["主席：是不是就一起通過？"],["蘇委員清泉：要在倒數第三行的「報告」前面加上「書面」二字。"],["主席：好，文字修正後通過。","第四案。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：主席、各位委員好。針對第四案，法務部代表謹針對第二段的部分，要求內政部及法務部，針對執法過程中，如何保障社工個人隱私及人權，提出檢討與精進作為，向立法院社環委員會提出書面報告，這一點是沒有問題。但是有關社工的部分，這一點與刑事訴訟法第八十九條之一以及執行拘提逮捕解送過程使用戒具的實施要點規定，它是要求所有執法機關應該要注意被告及犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽，避免戒具的暴露，所以我建議這邊的「社工」能不能改成「被告及犯罪嫌疑人」，回復到法條的依據。"],["主席：好，可以回復到法條，只是提醒在執行的過程中真的要更細膩，好不好？"],["林督導參事嚞慧：是。"],["主席：你們好好檢討。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：好。"],["主席：修正後通過。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：謝謝。"],["主席：第五案。"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員關心關於社工涉訟的協助機制，對於最後一段，我們是支持的，但是建議刪除第二句話，因為不一定是完全委託法扶基金會，所以最後一段修正為「爰要求衛福部於一個月內提出支持社工涉訟協助機制」。"],["主席：好，可以，修正後通過。我們要做社工的後盾，因為他們的職業風險真的也很高，謝謝。","第六案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第六案是不是可以在二個月內，因為這個需要再找很多相關單位。"],["主席：好，沒問題，那就請於二個月內提出詳細的計畫。好，修正後通過。","第七案。"],["簡署長慧娟：建議將第五行修正為「研議在收出養制度中，運用幼兒專責醫師對兒童進行健康與發展評估」，後面的健檢費用等等是不是可以刪除？接下來是一發現有問題就即時通報「地方政府」，這樣就能早發現早處理，絕對不能再發生像剴剴這樣的悲劇，並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出「書面」報告。"],["主席：蘇委員，可以嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：你在說什麼，我聽不懂。"],["簡署長慧娟：我們就是要運用幼兒專責醫師的制度，對孩子進行健康及發展的評估。目前就是幼兒專責醫師與社政及衛政要做一個連結，尤其是對於出養的孩子，如果被安置之後，我們現在已經是造冊納入幼兒專責醫師制度，指定一位醫師負責處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個案件就是醫師漏接嘛！根本沒有醫師介入嘛！脆弱家庭才是我們最關心的，但是你現在講這些，其實會去找專責醫師、會上網，又有一大堆表格要填寫，有那個能力的家庭也不需要了啦！"],["簡署長慧娟：我們已經造冊。我們已經透過地方政府，針對被安置的177名孩童，造冊送給地方去做一個指定。"],["薛部長瑞元：向委員說明，這個是幼兒專責醫師制度，本來就有這個機制在處理，所以我們同仁的意思是不需要再特別講鄰近衛生所或社區診所，因為本來就有這個機制。在這個機制之下，對小孩做健康或發展評估都是免費的、都是由公務預算支出。"],["蘇委員清泉：署長，偏遠地區與原鄉地區根本沒有合格醫師，更何況是兒科專責醫師，你有沒有看到那個情況之嚴重？盧縣一，你都沒有講話！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，在偏遠地區是由衛生所的醫師來取代幼兒專責醫師的角色。"],["蘇委員清泉：我真的不知道你們在說什麼，應該說得更詳細一點。"],["主席：可以修正後通過嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：好。"],["主席：好，就按照剛剛署長所說的文字修正後通過。","第八案。"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員關心社工人力的問題，剛剛也與涂委員做了一些討論及溝通，我們是建議從倒數第五行開始的後段，修改為「爰建請衛福部於一個月內依最新規定賦予社工之業務，重新盤點全國兒少福利訪視社工人力需求，同時盤點新規定實施後社工缺額狀況及補強措施」。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["涂委員權吉：OK，好。"],["主席：那就按修正文字通過。","第九案。"],["吳司長林輝：教育部配合辦理。"],["主席：第九案通過。","第十案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十案的部分，剛剛我們已經與林委員做了一些溝通，主要是我們今天的報告也對於出養前的照顧及評估機制另外改變了相關的一些安置流程，這樣就會納入委託安置，所以在第四行的「並修訂」以下文字改成「並納入委託安置程序，修正《直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則》，要求地方主管機關」，把「有關居托人員建立，應改為」這幾個字刪除，並且把「要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視」的「強制」二字拿掉，後面就都一樣，剛剛已經與林委員先做過溝通了。"],["主席：好，修正後通過。","第十一案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十一案是將倒數第二行改為「建立居托服務中心與媒合機構共訪準則」，因為實際上最重要的是去做訪視輔導，所以我們建議把「共案」改成「共訪」。後面那個因為就不是行政程序，所以是不是就把「以明確行政程序」刪除？"],["主席：可以嗎？林委員，你還要更改文字嗎？"],["林委員月琴：第三行，把「請衛福部向……」的「向」改成「要求」，要求兒福聯盟針對劉童兒虐致死案提供相關檢討報告。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十一案，林委員把「向」改成「要求」。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：OK。"],["主席：好，那就修正通過。","第十二案。"],["簡署長慧娟：可以。"],["主席：第十二案沒問題？"],["簡署長慧娟：是。"],["主席：好，那就通過。","第十三案。"],["張司長秀鴛：謝謝委員的關心。在第十三案倒數第三行「要求衛福部應將相關」的後面加上「重大兒童及少年虐待」這幾個字，以及最後的一段話改成「以利各單位後續協助處置」，也就是將「及時介入」改成「後續協助」，謝謝委員同意。"],["主席：好，那就修正後通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","第十三案有一個錯字，將第四行的「未免」更正為「為免」。","剛剛已經宣告12點半要休息半小時用餐，現在是13分，所以我們在徐巧芯委員質詢結束之後就休息用餐。","現在請蘇清泉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.607218750000001,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.876593750000001,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.930343750000002,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.17034375,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.68909375,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.53971875,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.51346875,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":50.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.95971875,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.83284375,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.81971875,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.502218750000004,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.37971875,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.98284375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.18659375,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.25409375000001,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.86159375000001,"end":86.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.61659375,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.37534375,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.10471875,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.41221875000001,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.97721875,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.65971875000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.48659375000001,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.99096875000001,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.71659375,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.35221875000002,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.68909375,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.24534375000002,"end":148.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.81784375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.26909375,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.58909375000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.71909375,"end":162.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.97596875000002,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.62096875,"end":168.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.98784375000002,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.45909375000002,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.04909375,"end":184.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.06596875000002,"end":181.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.96409375000002,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.56471875000003,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.23909375000002,"end":208.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.17971875,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.19659375,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.17096875000001,"end":223.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.86096875,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.43846875000003,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.16346875000002,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.51284375,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":254.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.05471875,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.40034375000002,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.49159375,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.30534375,"end":270.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.25846875,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.61221875,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.22346875,"end":287.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.25596875,"end":291.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.28971875,"end":289.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.42846875000004,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.02721875000003,"end":297.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.17846875000004,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.22909375,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.02596875,"end":302.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.49409375000005,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.53534375000004,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.89346875,"end":315.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.16721875,"end":319.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":332.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.03159375,"end":320.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.26159375000003,"end":341.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.26034375,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.79034375000003,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.74721875,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.34159375,"end":364.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.61534375,"end":393.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.60221875,"end":402.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.70659375,"end":408.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.23284375000003,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.35346875000005,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.64034375,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.91409375,"end":434.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.76471875000004,"end":436.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.92034375000003,"end":438.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.72596875000005,"end":442.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.74659375000005,"end":450.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.50471875000005,"end":454.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.35221875,"end":457.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.92971875,"end":466.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.60784375000003,"end":467.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.90721875,"end":473.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.38721875000005,"end":481.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.21721875000003,"end":484.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.05221875,"end":488.95034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.60846875000004,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.42159375000006,"end":524.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.81721875000005,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.0122187500001,"end":527.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.34096875,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.57284375,"end":541.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.66346875,"end":552.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.51846875,"end":554.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.5434687500001,"end":557.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.39096875,"end":558.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.40784375,"end":558.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.54284375,"end":558.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.01534375,"end":573.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.8484687499999,"end":575.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.12659375,"end":578.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.5734687500001,"end":579.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.4509687500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.0247187500001,"end":582.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.89346875,"end":586.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.9440937500001,"end":583.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.70721875,"end":586.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.36534375,"end":594.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0603437500001,"end":600.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.6297187499999,"end":597.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.32971875,"end":609.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.75846875,"end":611.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.0872187500001,"end":613.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.9097187500001,"end":616.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.24721875,"end":614.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.0990937500001,"end":617.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.63909375,"end":618.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.14096875,"end":623.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.87471875,"end":622.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.8659687500001,"end":624.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.10221875,"end":624.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.11909375,"end":624.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.1359687500001,"end":628.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.39221875,"end":631.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.96596875,"end":632.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.97846875,"end":633.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.4465937500001,"end":636.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.77534375,"end":639.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.7790937500001,"end":643.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.64784375,"end":644.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8078437500001,"end":661.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.03721875,"end":671.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.3359687500001,"end":669.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.08221875,"end":680.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.3015937499999,"end":671.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.54096875,"end":678.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.0047187499999,"end":682.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.55721875,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.57409375,"end":682.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.62471875,"end":682.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.6415937500001,"end":683.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.0972187500001,"end":683.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.1140937499999,"end":685.15596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.63,"end":12.81,"text":"好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,"},{"start":36.082,"end":63.471,"text":"針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在"},{"start":65.039,"end":93.582,"text":"昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼"},{"start":95.171,"end":117.022,"text":"法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估"},{"start":121.044,"end":149.553,"text":"但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查"},{"start":150.333,"end":174.741,"text":"另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做"},{"start":176.513,"end":182.943,"text":"因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說"},{"start":185.651,"end":210.778,"text":"我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以"},{"start":211.238,"end":222.871,"text":"不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡"},{"start":223.942,"end":228.345,"text":"這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導"},{"start":247.399,"end":269.613,"text":"就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?"},{"start":272.298,"end":295.904,"text":"他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦"},{"start":298.26,"end":299.061,"text":"各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?"},{"start":316.786,"end":340.98,"text":"這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎"},{"start":341.44,"end":363.403,"text":"社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長"},{"start":364.804,"end":393.726,"text":"那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎"},{"start":394.656,"end":407.801,"text":"林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長"},{"start":409.315,"end":409.335,"text":"那"},{"start":442.859,"end":448.862,"text":"我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?"},{"start":459.711,"end":472.977,"text":"當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣"},{"start":474.478,"end":488.785,"text":"通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是"},{"start":489.665,"end":507.568,"text":"第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。"},{"start":516.71,"end":541.785,"text":"目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理"},{"start":543.051,"end":557.306,"text":"這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防"},{"start":559.339,"end":585.724,"text":"我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可"},{"start":588.589,"end":616.415,"text":"這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼"},{"start":617.851,"end":642.316,"text":"現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦"},{"start":645.773,"end":668.005,"text":"我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善"},{"start":671.367,"end":681.44,"text":"對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員"}]}},{"id":"149994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ae67cd75783bc757d1b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a630ae6fd83cc849435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:33:39 - 11:43:03","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":564,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:43:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:33:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時33分）好，謝謝主席。我想先請中央銀行副總裁。"],["主席：先請嚴副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副總裁好。今天主要是談ETF，不過我剛才有仔細看你們的報告，因為大家也會關心現在過多的游資除了追逐ETF之外，也很擔心這些錢會不會流向房市，以現在的政府來說，我想包含今年平均地權條例上路，還有房屋稅差別稅率2.0準備今年7月實施，基本上這個都算是打房措施。我想請問一下，中央銀行在去年（2023年版）有相關的打房措施，請問一下2024年中央銀行有沒有一些打房措施？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，因為我們每一次在理事會之前，我們都會針對國內金融市場、房地產市場做分析和評估，所以其實在每一次會議的討論裡面，我們都會涉及這個問題。那是不是會有政策出現，可能會由理事會來決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以也有針對會不會擔心熱錢流入房市，使得房市過熱的議題會在理監事會裡面討論？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我剛才跟委員報告，我們在過去幾年每一次的理事會都會針對房地產市場問題有所討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為到現在為止大家也在關心，包含貸款成數、選擇性信用管制會不會持續，這些都會在理監事會討論，也不排除會有2024年版的打房措施囉？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們每一次在理事會後的新聞稿都會……"],["王委員鴻薇：你現在變成是在倒帶了！好，謝謝副總裁，時間暫停。"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，他們把00940講成：快樂領息就是你。與此同時已經出現了自救會，而且超過2萬名的自救會成員，我們過去在講股市說如果街上的擦鞋童都在談股市時，就代表股市過熱了，以前是有這種說法；最近00940的熱度，比如說我到電視臺上節目，那些梳化師一邊梳化，如果遇到來上投資理財的嘉賓，他們就開始問要不要買00940，而且很多的小資族在辦公室都在說：你有沒有買00940？所以主委，你會不會覺得現在確實ETF特別火？之前還有一檔，這樣加起來大概好像已經破了好幾千億喔！我已經忘了那個數字，那是非常、非常的驚人，尤其是00940，三天就破1,000億，聽說好多券商的電腦都因此而當機了，所以主委認不認為現在所謂高配息的ETF是不是真的過熱了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想主要是因為過去幾年臺股的表現不錯，所以這種以臺股為成分股的ETF的確有配到……"],["王委員鴻薇：有嚐到甜頭。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對！"],["王委員鴻薇：股價賺了，然後配息也配得很好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是！可能讓投資人覺得那我繼續買下去，可能也會達到這樣的目標，可是成分股……"],["王委員鴻薇：大家口耳相傳。我說此時此刻是不是過熱了？以我們過去看到股市這麼多的商品，股票也好，它算不算過熱？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實應該是反映現在國人的儲蓄率高，他們希望找一種能夠固定收回資金的商品去投資，這種商品正好符合國人的期待。另外還有一個要跟您請教的，其實中間有一些網紅跟投資人傳達訊息……"],["王委員鴻薇：瞭解，我知道你們最近會有一些措施。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我們來看一下，臺股ETF規模真的是狂飆，當然它的原因有很多種，一方面是股價上漲，如果股價下跌，說實在的也不會這麼熱啦！因為大家都說它高配息，但是很多人忽略它有投資風險，所以你可以看到到今年2月底已經飆到一兆五千多億，這是非常、非常高，相對而言，它也挹注了臺股的資金動能。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道金管會要出手了，我剛剛問你是不是覺得過熱，你一直不願意講，但是我相信你一定是覺得過熱，不然金管會為什麼要出手呢？但是我先問你，有關於限制網紅宣傳的部分，當然你說要標示警語，像是基金投資有賺有賠等，我們都常常聽到的，也不能強調月配息，這些我都還可以接受；但聽說你們要要求網紅在宣傳時不能說打敗定存，我覺得這一點就有點奇怪了，它本來就打敗定存啊！如果今天不是定存利率那麼低，為什麼會有這麼多人去追求ETF呢？在它的配息上確實打敗定存，卻不准他們講，我覺得這一點沒有什麼道理吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，跟您報告，這個規範還在公會研擬中，所以最後怎麼樣去確定還不確定，只是不希望把商品跟定存去做連結，就像以前保單一樣……"],["王委員鴻薇：你做連結，但是我覺得重點是，如果就配息來講，他真的就比不過定存了嘛，對不對？但我覺得要強調他的投資風險，不是所有ETF都賺啦！也有一些ETF是跌破淨值的，這也有啊！對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：後面幕僚一直再點頭，因為你們懂。可是很多小資族、很多年輕人，或者很多對股票投資不是那麼熟悉的人，看到大家都在賺股票，有這樣的一個商品，所以他覺得他要去投資，這個也無可厚非，當然網紅宣傳會有推波助瀾的效果，可是我真的覺得你們的相關要求也要合理啦！我聽到不能說「打敗定存」，我就覺得這是什麼，人家不能講實話嗎？","好，另外請教一下，你們會不會去訂定設立募集上限？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：完全沒有這樣的考量？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在00940一檔可以吸金吸這麼多，以後可能這種盛況不大容易再看到啦！你們確定未來不準備訂一個募集上限？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段我們沒有這個想法，主要還是因為這次有一些特別的情況啦！還是覺得在宣……我們1月初檢查幾家大投信，發覺網紅在中間有一些不太合適的推波助瀾效果，希望有一些規範，其他沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以只針對網紅？募集上限可能……"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前沒有、目前沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：喔，可能有很多投信會非常感謝你。","再來是我們要發主動型ETF嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個是有啦！不過剛才郭召委在質詢時，我覺得郭召委講得也很有道理，所以我們會通案再考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：通案考量，包含要用全透明式或者是半透明式，現在有這個方向嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這可能是公會跟證期局在討論的，目前還沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：還沒有確定，是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：看起來公會好像比較傾向於全透明式？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不太瞭解，不過委員有什麼特別的指示可以交代給我們，我們來做參考。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得你們應該把他的利弊得失通通列出來，有關主動型ETF，我不會覺得不應該去推，可是相關的全透明、半透明，你們應該把所有相關的利弊得失通通列出來，然後再去好好的做研究，這樣子是比較好的方式。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會的，今天特別謝謝委員還有剛才郭召委給我們很多指導，我們會一併跟公會去討論，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.79409375,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.709093750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.93596875,"end":14.138468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.138468750000001,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.15534375,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.239093750000002,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.262843750000002,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.42596875000001,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.41721875,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.69034375000001,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.14534375000001,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.34784375000001,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.76471875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.05034375000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.99909375,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.63596875,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.67471875000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.79221875,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.76596875,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.78284375,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.81659375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.88346875000002,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.52471875,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.41909375,"end":136.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.42284375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.91596875000002,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.59034375000002,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.37471875,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.20159375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":156.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.93471875,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.66846875000002,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.11971875,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.75221875,"end":169.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.53596875000002,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.99659375000002,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.89096875,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.51096875000002,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.56034375000002,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.80346875,"end":215.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.99721875,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.28784375,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.22846875000002,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.97846875000002,"end":238.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.52971875000003,"end":238.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.67721875,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.21721875000003,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.25471875000002,"end":248.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.35096875000002,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.78534375,"end":250.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.89471875,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.23971875,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.04534375000003,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.63284375,"end":282.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.96159375,"end":282.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.90659375,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.45909375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.04784375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.46971875,"end":297.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.57784375,"end":309.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.48471875,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.29721875,"end":330.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.00034375,"end":331.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.28284375000004,"end":343.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.09534375000004,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.04409375,"end":349.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.10284375000003,"end":351.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.29659375,"end":355.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.09346875,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.87534375,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.25846875,"end":380.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.22034375000004,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":392.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.74596875000003,"end":437.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.20034375,"end":402.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.81909375000004,"end":441.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.81846875,"end":442.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":444.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.40034375000005,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.07534375,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.42034375000003,"end":454.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.64346875,"end":458.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.50784375,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.54971875,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.82721875000004,"end":469.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.49346875000003,"end":482.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.69409375000004,"end":485.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.09471875,"end":483.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.54596875000004,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.11534375,"end":489.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.94159375000004,"end":492.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.16909375000006,"end":495.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.86471875,"end":502.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.03346875000005,"end":497.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.00721875000005,"end":506.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.01534375000006,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.04471875,"end":513.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.3472187500001,"end":518.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.59971875,"end":520.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.3928437500001,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.86096875,"end":524.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.38346875,"end":531.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.8803437500001,"end":535.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.54659375,"end":534.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.79971875,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.9978437500001,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.06534375,"end":553.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.2634687500001,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.06284375,"end":552.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.21034375,"end":560.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.28096875,"end":560.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.2978437500001,"end":561.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.81659375,"end":564.60096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.121,"end":4.643,"text":"中央銀行副總裁"},{"start":14.063,"end":36.222,"text":"委員好副總裁好今天主要要談ETF不過呢我也有剛才仔細看你們的報告因為大家也會關心現在過多的游資除了追逐ETF之外也很擔心這些錢會不會倒向會不會流向房市那現在呢就是以現在政府來說我想基本上包含"},{"start":36.903,"end":62.49,"text":"今年平均定學條例的上路還有房屋稅差別稅率2.0準備今年7月實施基本上這個都算是一個打房的措施那我想請問一下中央銀行在去年有這個算是2023年版的一些相關的這個打房措施那請問一下2024年中央銀行有沒有一些打房措施"},{"start":65.208,"end":82.577,"text":"報告委員因為我們每一次在理事會之前我們都會針對國內的金融市場和房地產市場做分析和評估所以其實在每一次會議的討論裡面我們都會涉及這個問題那是不是會有政策出現可能就是由理事會來決定"},{"start":83.857,"end":101.032,"text":"所以這次禮監事會裡面也有針對會不會擔心熱錢流入房市使得房市過熱的這樣的議題會在禮監事會裡面討論我剛才跟委員報告就是說我們在過去幾年每一次的禮事會都會針對房地產市場問題有所討論"},{"start":103.387,"end":128.888,"text":"好所以呢就是2024年因為到現在為止大家也在關心嘛你們包含一些貸款陳述選擇性信用管制會不會繼續的持續所以都會在禮監事會討論所以也不排除會有2024年版的打房措施囉我們每一次在禮事會後的新聞稿你現在變成是在倒帶了好那就謝謝副總裁時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":131.687,"end":160.136,"text":"我請我們那個金管會有請黃主委黃主委是 委員好主委0094000940他們把它講成說快樂領袭就是你就是你但是呢同時呢也很特殊的在這與此同時已經出現了自救會而且超過兩萬名自救會那麼的會成員那所以"},{"start":161.178,"end":175.51,"text":"我們過去在講股市說如果啊這個街上的插鞋童都在談股市的時候就代表股市過熱了以前是有這種說法那最近的00940的這個熱比如說我去到電視台上節目那些書畫師一邊書畫如果他是一些來上投資理財的他們就開始問要不要買00940然後呢很多的小資族在辦公室"},{"start":189.921,"end":214.862,"text":"都在說你有沒有買00940所以各位你會不會覺得現在確實ETF特別就是之前還有一檔這樣加起來大概好像已經破了好幾千億我忘了這個數字那非常非常的驚人尤其00940三天就破一千億然後聽說好多的券商的電腦都因此而當機了"},{"start":216.058,"end":224.878,"text":"所以諸位你認不認為現在的這個所謂高息高配息的ETF是不是真的過熱了"},{"start":228.072,"end":256.647,"text":"我想主要是因為過去幾年臺股的表現不錯所以這種以臺股為成分股的ETF的確它有配到它有嘗到甜頭對它股價賺了然後它配息也配得很好是可能讓投資人覺得那我繼續買下去可能也會達到這個目標可是因為大家頭耳相傳那我說此時此刻是不是過熱了以我們過去看到的這樣股市這麼多的商品股票也好"},{"start":257.307,"end":277.02,"text":"他算不算過熱其實應該是反映現在國人的儲蓄率高他們希望找一種能夠有這種固定能夠收回資金的這樣的一個商品去投資那這種商品正好符合國人的期待但是另外還有一個要跟您請教的就是其實中間有一些"},{"start":278.741,"end":305.913,"text":"網紅他在跟投資人傳達訊息我知道你們最近會有一些措施來看一下這個我們台股的ETF其實規模真的是狂飆那當然他的原因有很多種就一方面股價上漲如果股價下跌說實在也不會這麼熱啦那麼因為大家都說他高配息但是呢很多也去忽略他有他的投資風險在那所以你可以看到這個是"},{"start":307.934,"end":330.272,"text":"現在到今年二月底已經飆到一兆五千多億這是非常非常高當然相對而言他也挹注了臺股的一個資金動能我們來看下一頁我知道金管會要出手了我剛講說你是不是覺得過熱你一直不願意講但是我相信你一定是覺得過熱不然的話金管會為什麼要出手呢"},{"start":331.053,"end":359.11,"text":"但是呢你這邊我待會我先問你有關於限制網紅宣傳的部分當然你說要有標示警語就像什麼基金投資有賺有賠我們都常常聽到的你不能強調月配息那我這些我都還可以接受但是聽說你們要要求網紅在宣傳的時候你不能說打敗定存那我覺得這點就有點奇怪了他本來就打敗定存"},{"start":359.75,"end":373.881,"text":"今天如果不是定存利率那麼低的話為什麼這麼多人去追求ETF呢所以他確實在他的這個配息上面他確實打敗定存那你不准他講我覺得這點沒有什麼道理吧"},{"start":374.912,"end":392.057,"text":"委員跟您報告這個規範還在工會在研擬中所以最後怎麼樣去確定還不確定只是說不希望把商品跟定存去做連結了就像以前寶刀一樣你做連結但是我覺得重點你如果說就配息來講它真的就比不過定存了嘛對不對"},{"start":392.817,"end":413.984,"text":"但是我覺得就是要強調它的一個投資風險不是所有ETF都賺啊也有一些ETF都點破淨值的也有啊後面在點頭因為你們懂可是很多的小資族很多的年輕人或者很多的一些他對股票投資不是那麼熟悉看到大家都在賺股票對不對然後有這樣的一個商品"},{"start":417.945,"end":441.203,"text":"所以他覺得他要去投資這個也無可厚非那當然網紅宣傳他會有推波助瀾的效果可是我真的覺得就是你們的相關的要求也要合理啦我聽到說不能打敗定存我就覺得這是什麼人家實話不能講嘛另外請教一下你們會不會去訂定設立募集上限目前沒有"},{"start":443.066,"end":459.756,"text":"完全沒有這樣的考量沒有所以現在什麼00940這樣子一檔就是可以吸金吸這麼多以後可能這種盛況不大容易再看到啦那麼你不準備未來要去定一個募集上限"},{"start":460.758,"end":489.285,"text":"我現階段沒有這個想法因為我想現階段主要還是這次也有一些特別的情況主要還是覺得在宣我們最近1月初檢查幾家大投信發覺網紅在中間有一些不太合適的推波助瀾的效果希望有一些規範這次針對網紅目前上線目前沒有這個可能很多投信會非常感謝你好來下一頁"},{"start":491.004,"end":520.165,"text":"我們要發主動型ETF嗎這個是有啦不過我剛才郭昭偉在質詢的時候我覺得郭昭偉講的也很有道理所以我們會通案再考量通案考量然後包含他要用全透明式或者是半透明式那我看好像現在有這個方向嗎這個可能是工會跟政企局在討論目前還沒有還沒有確定是不是沒有"},{"start":520.922,"end":531.422,"text":"因為看起來好像工會比較傾向於是全透明市我不了解不過委員有什麼特別的指示可以交代給我們我們來做參考"},{"start":531.943,"end":559.531,"text":"我覺得你們應該把它利弊得失通通把它列出來我覺得這個有關主動型ETF我不會說覺得不應該去推可是相關的什麼全透明半透明我覺得你應該把所有的相關的利弊得失通通列出來然後再去做好好的研究這樣是比較好的方式我們是會今天特別謝謝委員還有剛剛郭昭瑋有給我們很多指導我們會一併跟工會去討論謝謝"},{"start":561.857,"end":563.702,"text":"好 謝謝王宏偉委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a4c67f458fe2c7ce23919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6456854e6ed04a8475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:29:38 - 11:42:28","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":770,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:42:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:29:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時29分）謝謝主席。主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：請蔡部長。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長，剛才吳思瑤委員針對楊文科縣長這個案件，我剛才聽他講說是因為國民黨黨團開記者會，什麼政治操作、要求檢方公開。這一點我要做相關的澄清跟說明，照理說國民黨團開記者會對於檢方就楊文科50萬交保這件事情，有關他交保的事由，檢方如果適時地揭露一些相關的內容會不會違反偵查不公開？我想我們真的要講清楚、說明白。這個案子剛剛很多委員也有詢問部長，我們當初開記者會就是基於交保的時機點非常敏感，因為前一天臺南市的黃偉哲市長接受約談，第二天楊文科縣長就被搜索而且被重保、50萬交保，交保的原因大家都在猜，到底楊文科為什麼要交保？黃偉哲是直接就飭回、就請回，那楊文科卻要重保50萬。楊文科本來表示他莫名其妙，為什麼他要交保？他還一度拒保，後來經過溝通協調他才以50萬元做交保處分。","但是我們現在要澄清一點，檢方當初做交保的時候，因為我們那時候第一時間就是非常疑惑到底他為什麼要50萬交保？到底他是發生了什麼事？涉貪是涉及哪一個案件？基於這一點，我們還是認為這個要跟社會大眾說明白、講清楚，因為這是一位縣長涉犯一個重大案件然後也被交保處分，對新竹縣民要有一個交代，所以檢方應該適時地就交保理由做出相關的說明。部長，您認為這樣有違反任何偵查不公開的原則嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：按照規定如果涉及到公共利益的維護或是合法權益的保護，有必要的時候是可以適度地來公開跟揭露，要看這個案件的情形如何，由承辦的檢察官來認定。"],["林委員思銘：部長，所以這個案子我們只想瞭解他到底因為涉犯哪一件貪污案？比如現在媒體揭露是因為天坑案嘛。"],["蔡部長清祥：因為實際的內容還是要由承辦的地檢署檢察官，他最瞭解啦。"],["林委員思銘：基於他是新竹縣的大家長，是不是可以適度地揭露他是因為什麼案子涉嫌貪污重大，所以給他交保，這難道不能講嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：它們有發新聞稿……"],["林委員思銘：這是什麼案件？天坑案或什麼案？"],["蔡部長清祥：有做適度地說明。"],["林委員思銘：我跟你講，那時候都沒講！"],["蔡部長清祥：也許大家不滿意嘛，但是要到最後偵查結束了，它自然而然會全部的公開嘛。"],["林委員思銘：要等到偵查結束，大家就一直在猜了嘛！所以現在才會發生今天鏡週刊去揭露這個案子那麼多的事實內容，才會讓我們覺得這個案子是不是早就已經寫好腳本了，照表操課！先做一個搜索、交保處分，然後鏡週刊出來帶風向。","部長，我們來看鏡週刊的相關報導內容，這真的是已經逾越偵查不公開，它竟然可以把相關的犯罪事實還有事證這麼鉅細靡遺的講出來啊，這個偵查的實質核心內容它都可以講出來啊，我們不禁懷疑這如果不是檢方去做相關事實透露的話，它怎麼會知道？"],["蔡部長清祥：到底是不是偵辦同仁或是其他相關機關人員所洩漏的，這是我們需要瞭解的。"],["林委員思銘：是，部長。因為新竹地檢署也有發一個新聞稿，新竹地檢署表示它們絕無可能會去洩漏、透露這個報導的內容，那是否為調查局北機組洩密尚須調查。而調查局北機組也表示，此案它們只是借用北部地區機動工作站的場地來約談，它們沒有實質參與調查涉嫌人，對案件的內容也毫無所知，所以它說它實在也不可能會有洩密的情事。","所以我請問部長，現在這件事情各說各話，地檢署的新聞稿說它們絕無可能會去洩密，然後調查局說它根本沒有參與本案事實內容的調查，它只是把場地借給地檢署而已，兩個說法南轅北轍，都表示不可能、絕不會去洩漏相關的事實內容給媒體！所以我現在不禁懷疑，難道週刊寫得出來，這是它杜撰的嗎？兩個單位都說它不可能洩密啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：可能它蒐集相關的資料做分析、判斷，這個我們是……"],["林委員思銘：所以部長你認為不排除週刊杜撰的可能性？"],["蔡部長清祥：這也是可能之一，那有沒有人洩密我們也要調查。"],["林委員思銘：是。所以部長我現在要講，前面我們開記者會僅僅要求檢調應該要講清楚交保的相關犯罪類別，他是因為涉及哪一個案子，沒有要求它把相關的事證講出來嘛，你要告訴社會大眾一個堂堂的新竹縣縣長今天被50萬重保，他因為涉及什麼案件且有相關的事證掌握，你可以講啊！你不用把事證的內容講出來。","但是我們現在看到這個案子的報導，我大概唸給你聽，它講檢調除了掌握建商員工手機通聯提到說縣長好像搞定了，更查出楊文科前年競選連任的總部也就是豐邑建案的豪華接待中心，還故意寫個「豪華」。離譜的是，給付豐邑的87萬元租金，豐邑不久就全數用政治獻金的名義回贈，另外也在楊文科的官邸還有辦公室搜出現金50萬，以及五星級酒店的餐券以及國圖的禮券，案情急遽升溫。他提到外界不知檢調在大動作搜索前，早就掌握五大關鍵事證，懷疑楊文科涉嫌受益工務處放水天坑建商復工，其中存在對價關係，部長，寫這麼清楚，週刊可以爆出這麼詳細的一個爆料，相關的事實、事證它都可以講得出來，這難道不是有人透露給它嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不一定是辦案人員透露了，有一些基本事實從過去的新聞再加上法律常識去判斷，也許可以猜測得到，我們不敢講，但是我們會再來調查清楚。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想這件事情凸顯出我們今天要講的偵查不公開原則，剛才傅總召也講了，我們發覺檢調單位常常透露相關的獨家內容給相關的媒體，為什麼它可以拿到這些相關的事實內容或者讓媒體能夠捕風捉影？到底是因為這家週刊跟檢調的關係比較好，還是因為受到上級的指示要透露，故意做整個政治操作？這個想像空間很大，所以怎麼樣嚴守偵查不公開的原則，杜絕這種情事繼續發生，部長有什麼樣的想法？怎麼樣讓這種事情不要再發生？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會強力要求檢察官及其他辦案的同仁，還有其他的偵查機關都要遵守這個規定，對於媒體報導，如果有澄清的必要，也要做事實的澄清，也不能一直背黑鍋，到底……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個案子，剛才傅總召講你開始要啟動調查，請問有啟動調查了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：有，他們應該都會蒐集新聞的報導，然後做檢討，高檢署也會督導。"],["林委員思銘：到底是哪一個環節洩密、洩露這些內容，還是週刊杜撰的？你大概多久可以查得出來？"],["蔡部長清祥：我會要求高檢署就現在調查局或是地檢署，他們有他們的說明，到底何者為真，還是有其他的原因，要再進一步瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：我希望也要求部長，法務部能就這個案子儘速查出到底是哪一個環節出了問題，到底是誰洩密，不要各說各話，檢方說的是一套，調查局說的又是一套。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會做行政的督導。"],["林委員思銘：除了這個案子，我再跟你討論金門海域的大陸漁船翻覆事件，這個事件我們看到檢調是嚴防、很嚴格的死守偵查不公開的原則，在立法院很多委員在質詢的時候，就到底船隻有無碰撞這一點，都被以偵查不公開的理由，不讓全民知道真相。"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有這回事。"],["林委員思銘：兩件事情，兩種態度，一個是完全不講……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有，地檢署沒有說不能來對外說明，因為按照這個規定，如果涉及到公共利益或是合法的權益，是可以適度的公開說明。"],["林委員思銘：但是就船隻有沒有碰撞這一個事實，金門地檢署說這個是偵查不公開……"],["蔡部長清祥：金門地檢署沒有這樣說，它沒有這樣說。"],["林委員思銘：沒有這樣說嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：它公開的新聞說明……"],["林委員思銘：那有證實說是碰撞嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：公開的新聞稿裡面說它沒有對外這樣說。"],["林委員思銘：那它有講是碰撞嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：也許是其他辦案單位它自己的判斷，但是按照我們作業辦法的規定，如果有涉及到公共利益或是合法權益的，可以適度的公開說明。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我最後的結論，我絕對相信檢調的操守，也認為絕對禁得起檢驗，但是這兩個案子偏偏是很清楚的雙標，你剛一直跟我講金門地檢他們沒有這樣說，但是我們看到的情況是金門地檢就嚴守偵查不公開，到底這個案情的內容……"],["蔡部長清祥：兩個案情不同啦！"],["林委員思銘：它遲遲不透露，大家想瞭解的真相是船隻到底有沒有碰撞，它一直不願意很適度的去做一個揭露。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以規定說可適度的對外說明，這是由承辦的單位來判斷。"],["林委員思銘：所以我還是要求法務部絕對不能因為受到政治的影響，每一位檢察官都要獨立辦案，絕對不要受政治的影響而作出違反偵查不公開這樣的原則。"],["蔡部長清祥：不會受到政治的影響。"],["林委員思銘：真的要在這裡嚴格的要求。"],["蔡部長清祥：我也請大家尊重檢察官他們獨立行使職權，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來先處理會議時間，上午會議時間會持續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答完畢為止。","接下來請翁委員曉玲進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.90846875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.87784375,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.01971875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.056593750000005,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.12284375,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.523468750000006,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.28659375000001,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.79284375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.46221875,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.49346875,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.11471875000001,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.55721875,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":132.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.93846875,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":158.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.19596875000002,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.75096875,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":190.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.46096875,"end":196.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.54534375,"end":191.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.61284375000002,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.03846875000002,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.55909375000002,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.41971875000002,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.87534375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.73971875,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.07284375,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.13971875000001,"end":240.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.36784375,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.38471875,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.10909375,"end":287.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.34471875,"end":325.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.05596875000003,"end":340.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.51784375,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.91284375000004,"end":356.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.01721875000004,"end":360.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.08846875,"end":370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.97721875,"end":371.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.60159375,"end":371.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.61846875000003,"end":375.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.03971875,"end":378.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.46534375000005,"end":388.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.74659375000005,"end":446.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.71159375,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.69534375,"end":448.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.19284375,"end":464.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.13971875000004,"end":477.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.98159375000006,"end":478.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.01534375000006,"end":478.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.33596875,"end":486.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.60471875,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.97534375000004,"end":491.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.80221875,"end":491.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.81909375000004,"end":498.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.24409375000005,"end":501.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.48846875000004,"end":510.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.58409375,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.66409375,"end":521.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.46846875,"end":522.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.4765937500001,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.7153437500001,"end":545.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.65034375,"end":548.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.83971875,"end":551.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.9072187500001,"end":549.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.52284375,"end":569.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.98846875,"end":574.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.03409375,"end":574.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.43909375,"end":574.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.75971875,"end":574.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.8103437500001,"end":582.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.14659375,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.9734687499999,"end":590.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.1072187500001,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.03534375,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.9653437500001,"end":609.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.2309687500001,"end":611.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.01971875,"end":623.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.33409375,"end":627.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.03846875,"end":627.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.91596875,"end":657.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.3797187499999,"end":660.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.58221875,"end":658.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.0290937500001,"end":671.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.50159375,"end":662.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.1709687500002,"end":674.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.40659375,"end":678.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.54971875,"end":680.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.92471875,"end":680.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.61659375,"end":680.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.9540937500001,"end":681.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.03846875,"end":681.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.20721875,"end":683.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.30846875,"end":685.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.1684687500001,"end":687.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.05846875,"end":694.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.20596875,"end":689.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.9097187500001,"end":694.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.4497187500001,"end":701.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.87909375,"end":702.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.0772187500002,"end":704.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.0390937500001,"end":704.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.2078437499999,"end":705.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.96284375,"end":717.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.89346875,"end":740.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.3897187500002,"end":729.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.88659375,"end":742.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.0078437500001,"end":759.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.0247187500001,"end":743.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.5872187500001,"end":761.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.77284375,"end":762.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.5109687500001,"end":764.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.8272187500002,"end":769.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.53159375,"end":765.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.1640937500001,"end":768.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.30721875,"end":770.32409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.738,"end":13.643,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請法務部部長請蔡部長部長好委員好部長我剛才這個"},{"start":22.626,"end":49.975,"text":"吳士堯委員他這個講說是對於楊文科縣長這個案件我剛才聽他講說是因為國民黨黨團我們開記者會這個什麼政治操作要求檢方公開我想這一點我要做一下相關的一個澄清跟說明道理說國民黨團去開記者會對於檢方就楊文科50萬交保這件事情他交保的是由那麼檢方"},{"start":52.176,"end":63.107,"text":"如果適時的揭露一些相關的內容會不會違反偵查不公開我想我們真的要講清楚說明白我想這個案子剛才很多委員也有來詢問部長"},{"start":65.322,"end":90.664,"text":"那我想我們當初開記者會就是基於說這個交保的時機點非常敏感就是說因為是前一天才台南市的黃偉哲市長接受約談那第二天呢就姚文柯縣長就被搜索然後而且被重保50萬交保那交保的原因大家都在猜到底姚文柯為什麼要交保"},{"start":91.89,"end":113.435,"text":"黃偉哲是直接就賜回就請回那楊文科卻要重保50萬楊文科本來表示說我莫名其妙為什麼我要交保他還一度拒保那後來經過溝通協調那才這個50萬元他也去做這個交保的一個處分但是我們現在要澄清一點"},{"start":114.542,"end":131.891,"text":"就是說這個檢方當初做交保的時候因為我們那時候第一時間就是非常疑惑就是說到底他為什麼要50萬交保到底他是發生了什麼事那你說涉灘涉灘是涉及哪一個案件"},{"start":133.012,"end":158.358,"text":"那據於這一點我想我們還是認為這個是要跟社會大眾說明白講清楚因為這是一個縣長呢涉犯了一個重大案件然後也被交保處分那要對縣民新竹縣民要有一個交代所以檢方應該適時的就交保的理由來做出相關的一個說明部長您認為這樣有這個違反任何偵查不公開的原則嗎"},{"start":159.246,"end":179.793,"text":"如果按照規定涉及到公共利益的維護或是合法權益的保護有必要的時候是可以適度的來公開和揭露所以要看這個案件的情形如何由承辦的檢察官來認定所以我想部長所以這個案子我們只想了解"},{"start":180.333,"end":189.671,"text":"他到底因為涉犯哪一件貪污案涉犯哪一件貪污案比如說現在媒體揭露的是因為天坑案"},{"start":191.639,"end":209.889,"text":"因為實際的內容還是要由陳辦的地檢署檢察官最了解所以他基於一個新竹縣的大家長那是不是我們適度的去揭露說他是因為什麼案子涉嫌貪污重大所以給他交保這難道不能講嗎"},{"start":212.539,"end":239.974,"text":"呃 他們有發信誤稿 他們有發信誤稿有做適度的說明啊但是我跟你講那時候 也許大家不滿意吧但是要到最後偵查結束了他自然而然會全部的公開嘛等到偵查結束大家就一直在猜了嘛所以現在才會發生說今天進週刊去揭露多那麼多的一個這個案子的事實內容才會讓我們覺得說這個案子是不是早就已經寫好腳本了照表操課"},{"start":241.155,"end":260.72,"text":"先做一個交保搜索然後交保處分然後禁收刊出來帶風響我想部長我們來看禁收刊他的相關報導內容這真的是已經逾越偵查不公開吧這個相關的一個犯罪的一個事實還有事證他竟然可以這麼鉅細靡遺的講出來啊這個偵查這個實質的核心內容他都可以講出來啊"},{"start":265.761,"end":282.649,"text":"這個我們不禁懷疑這不是檢方在去做這個相關事實的一個透露他怎麼會知道到底是不是偵辦的同仁或是其他相關的機關人員所洩漏的這是我們需要了解"},{"start":283.129,"end":302.298,"text":"是部長我想這個部分因為新竹地檢署也有發一個新聞稿新竹地檢署表示他們絕無可能會去洩露這個透露這個報導的一個內容那是否為調查局北機組洩密上須調查那調查局北機組也表示"},{"start":303.138,"end":324.851,"text":"此案他們只是借用北部地區低動工作站的場地來約談他們實質沒有參與這個一個調查的調查那個涉嫌人他沒有參與那對案件的內容也毫無所知所以他說他實在也不可能會有洩密的一個情勢所以我請問部長"},{"start":326.292,"end":347.09,"text":"現在各說各話這件事情地檢署他的新聞稿說他們絕無可能會去洩密然後調局說我只根本沒有參與這個本案事實內容的一個調查我只是把這個場地借給這個地檢署而已兩個說法南轅北轍所以都表示不可能絕不會去洩漏這個相關的一個事實內容給媒體"},{"start":351.053,"end":377.939,"text":"所以我現在不禁懷疑難道這個是週刊寫的出來這是他杜撰的嗎兩個單位都說我不可能洩密啊因為可能他收集相關的資料做分析判斷那這個我們是所以部長你認為不排除週刊杜撰的可能性這也是可能之一啦那有沒有人洩密我們也要調查是所以部長我現在想說"},{"start":379.577,"end":387.114,"text":"前面我們開記者會緊緊要求說應該檢調就是說交保的相關的一個犯罪的一個這個"},{"start":388.82,"end":388.88,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":410.314,"end":426.769,"text":"報導的報導我這個大概唸給你聽他講說檢調除了掌握建商員工首期通年提到縣長好像搞定了更查出陽文科前年競選連任的總部也就是封義建案的豪華接待中心故意寫個豪華"},{"start":428.01,"end":447.796,"text":"李普德市已付封印的87萬元中金封印不久就全數用政治獻金的名義回贈另外也在陽文科的官邸還有辦公室收出獻金50萬以及五星級酒店的餐券以及國土禮件案情急劇升溫"},{"start":449.609,"end":462.625,"text":"他提到．外界不知檢調在大動作收手前．早就掌握五大關鍵事證．懷疑楊文科涉嫌受益公務處．放水天坑建商復工．其中存在對價關係"},{"start":465.185,"end":468.287,"text":"不一定會是辦案人員透露有一些基本事實從過去的新聞然後再讓法律的嘗試去判斷"},{"start":486.996,"end":509.457,"text":"也許可以猜測得到,我們不敢講,但是我們會再調查清楚啦。這部長我想這件事情這個凸顯出就是說我們今天要這個講的偵查不公開的這個原則那我們剛才副總召委講的就是說我們發覺說我們檢調單位就是常常透露相關的獨家的內容給我們的相關的媒體"},{"start":511.881,"end":533.83,"text":"為什麼他可以拿到這些相關的一個事實內容去或者讓媒體能夠捕風捉影到底是因為這家週刊跟檢調的關係比較好還是說是因為受到上級的指示要透露來故意做整個政治操作"},{"start":535.05,"end":550.796,"text":"這個大家都在想像空間很大所以怎麼樣來嚴守我們偵查不公開的原則來杜絕這種情勢繼續發生啊柏柳你有什麼樣的一個這個想法怎麼樣來讓這種事情不要再發生"},{"start":551.576,"end":573.592,"text":"我們會強力的要求檢察官還有其他的辦案同仁還有其他的偵查機關都是要遵守這個規定那對於媒體的報導如果有澄清的必要也要不要做事實的澄清也不能一直的被黑鍋所以這個案子現在該副總裁要講了嗎你開始要啟動調查有啟動調查了嗎"},{"start":574.893,"end":590.414,"text":"有,他們應該都就新聞的報導都會有收集然後做檢討那高監署也會督導到底是哪一個環節洩這個密洩露這些內容還是週刊杜撰的"},{"start":592.128,"end":593.989,"text":"你大概多久可以查得出來"},{"start":610.376,"end":612.097,"text":"我們會做行政的督導"},{"start":629.028,"end":656.643,"text":"除了這個案子我再跟你討論另外一個就是金門的海域的大陸漁船翻覆這個事件這個事件我們看到部長檢調是嚴防這個很嚴格的去實手我們偵查不公開的原則但立法院很多委員在質詢的時候就到底船隻有碰撞這一點呢都被偵查不公開的理由不讓全民知道真相"},{"start":657.603,"end":679.298,"text":"沒有這回事兩件事情兩種態度啊沒有地檢署沒有說不能來對外說明因為按照這個規定如果涉及到公共利益或是合法的權益啊那是可以適度的公開但是就傳之有沒有碰撞這一個事實啊地檢署說這言新聞地檢說這個是偵查不公開他沒有這樣說沒有這樣說嗎那有證實說是碰撞嗎公開的新聞稿裡面說他沒有"},{"start":686.423,"end":694.093,"text":"對外這樣說那他有講是碰撞嗎也許是其他的辦案單位他自己的判斷"},{"start":695.526,"end":713.733,"text":"但是按照我們作業辦法的規定是如果有涉及到公共利益或是合法權益的可以適度的公開說明那個部長我想我最後的結論我想我絕對相信檢調的一個操守也絕對經得起檢驗但是這兩個案子"},{"start":717.955,"end":738.889,"text":"偏偏是很清楚的雙標啦你剛一直跟我講金門地檢他們沒有這樣說但是我們看到的情況金門地檢就嚴守偵查不公開到底這個案情的內容資質不透露啊到底大家想了解的真相就到底船隻有沒有碰撞他一直不願意去很適度的做一個揭露承辦的單位"},{"start":742.151,"end":766.802,"text":"所以我還是這個要求我們法務部絕對不能因為受到政治的影響每一位檢察官都要獨立辦案絕對不要受政治的影響而做出違反偵查不公開這樣的原則不會受到政治的影響對 真的要在這裡嚴格的要求不過也請大家尊重檢察官他們獨立行使職權好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a41a7fbda9989164887ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6a9c7a02352e8f88f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:25:04 - 11:36:43","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":699,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:36:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:25:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。我想面對今天這個議題，我們很清楚知道沒有人有權力剝奪他人的生命，不論一時的憤慨或是年少輕狂都不是理由，所以校園殺人事件令人悲痛、憤怒，而且完全沒有辦法接受，可是既然今天要談到這個議題就要放下所謂的私人情緒，然後要用立法委員的身分來跟您探討我們如何防範悲劇於未然。我們試著想像一個情境，假設一個15歲的少年是A，在他國小的時候媽媽吸毒致死，和他相依為命的爸爸現在又有所謂的槍砲彈藥前科，少年A的爸爸再婚，繼母又因為販毒被關，請教少年A算不算處在高風險又或是所謂的脆弱家庭？我們是不是要在避免標籤化的情況之下及早積極介入，在少年A成長的過程中就給予輔導？面對少年A的情況，我們現行的機制到底有什麼樣的資源可以給予協助？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，委員所敘述的家庭狀況如果不涉及到我們少年本身，他就是我們常態的孩子，當然對於他的處遇跟家庭這方面，我想在學校還有我們相關的一些資源應該給予常態的教育。如果是經濟弱勢或是學習上的弱勢，委員知道我們是有幾個機制可以去幫助，如果因為這樣的家庭影響到少年A，比如說他可能會出現一些……"],["林委員宜瑾：偏差行為。"],["潘部長文忠：偏差行為，甚至要是有觸法或我們說曝險的，就會進到另外一個處理的機制。"],["林委員宜瑾：為什麼要這樣強調？就是說你可能要在發現少年A是特殊脆弱家庭的這種背景就要給予相當的協助或輔導，你要去關心他，因為我們很清楚知道家庭功能的欠缺，日後造成他偏差行為的可能性相對很高，如果我們沒有有機制地去輔導他，那他很可能就會誤入歧途成為犯罪者，最終受害的還是所謂的社會大眾。少年A的經歷當然是我杜撰的，可是實際上就跟媒體所披露的，就是2023聖誕節中午犯下新北國三少年殺人案郭姓少年的背景是相符合的，是有點類似的，所以悲劇已經釀成，我們就要防止第二條生命不能再犧牲。換句話說，郭姓少年已經鑄成大錯，可是罪與罰之間該怎麼拿捏，才能真正讓一位那麼年輕可是又犯下重大錯誤的人在受處罰的同時也能改過自新，不要一步錯步步錯？所以我們放在心上的一件事就是，對於這些相當小的年紀就犯下大錯的人來看，對他來講還是來日方長，所以其實多的是我們跟他在社會上相處的時間，所以如果不對他在這個特定的時間點的偏差行為妥善的矯正，這個犯罪可能就是一個很漫長的犯罪史。","1月4號教育部有召開所謂的校安諮詢會，潘部長在會後有表示將會跟地方、民間合力擴充，剛剛張雅琳委員也有提到的，就是所謂的中介教育基地，並建立個案輔導的評估機制。經本辦徵詢專家的結論，專家所關心的包含以下幾點，第一個就是建立所謂的中介教育基地，要配置充足的心理專業人員；第二是我們這個觸法少年回歸校園前的所謂的個案轉銜會議相當重要，因為這個個案轉銜會議不只是一場會議，而且它是一個緊密的網子，就像我們秀出來的PPT一樣，它其實是需要跨越部門跟專業的合作跟評估，而且會議紀錄也應該正式發文，讓各個單位配合辦理，以便行政的溝通。第三是各縣市都有所謂的家庭教育中心，但除了教育課程之外，是不是也要針對少年家庭的個別化需求給予諮商的服務？第四就是我們要強化暴力行為的預兆辨識，充實學校的輔導人力。以上的專家建議，我們做得到嗎？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，有部分是教育部，這段時間給我來說明，有一些或許由司法院或其他的單位補充。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["潘部長文忠：有關中介基地這部分，過去教育部在中途的措施有好幾個，但是過去是不分中輟的學生或家庭比較失功能的，我們有幾個合作的模式，這次在中介基地的這一方面會特別針對曝險少年或司法少年，因為有一些個案發生、產生，比如像新北這個事件的這種對象，我是舉例。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["潘部長文忠：比較希望如果能經過一個機制裁定後，覺得暫時還是不要立刻回歸學校的這一個作法，是我們在這個階段一直在努力的。對於後續，我想跟委員報告，我們會跟縣市合作，目前評估國內大概有33個團體，過去有接觸、協助這些曝險少年，社福團體大概有八十幾個，但三十幾個是比較有經驗的，教育部會來協助縣市跟資源，讓這樣的機制包含課程跟所需的人力資源能真正照顧、協助到這些過渡階段的曝險少年的學習，這是第一個。","第二個，這個階段我們開了那麼多的工作會議，來自學校的反映也是希望我們的少保官或少調官，在做他們要出少觀所或相關的這些評估，也就是針對特定對象的學生──有可能傷害他人生命或身體之虞的這種對象進行調查及最後裁決時，一定要邀請學校來做這方面的參與。我想過去司法院的人力真的很不足，但司法院在2月1號開始有一個試辦計畫，我覺得這個功能就如委員所說的，它真的會強化起來，包含一個階段以後適不適合回學校，我想用這樣比較專業的方式評估應該會更客觀，也會讓這些學生在回歸前得到比較適切的評估跟安置。目前我們在整個跨院的合作裡面都有共識，教育部啟動中介基地的協助、縣市已經啟動，司法院2月1號開始的試辦計畫，我有詳細讀過，真的就是過去學校反映從頭到後面的追蹤，也能確保少年在保護管束的過程當中有真正的調整。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，最近有保母虐童的事件，掀起社會很大的討論，本席對這起事件也感到相當痛心，我們為了防止這樣的悲劇再次發生，立法跟行政單位都有絕不能懈怠的責任。其實幼兒園也屢屢出現這種不當對待學童的事件，剛好今年8月準公幼將邁入第3期，園所準備要重新申請，這是一個全面檢視準公幼的機會，包括它的辦學、教學、保育品質等等。之前全教總指出準公幼政策上路之後，經統計六都違規的比例達到三分之一，等於每三家準公幼就有一家有違規紀錄，家長把心肝寶貝送到幼兒園必定是希望寶貝受到最好的照顧，本席對虐童絕對是零容忍。對於幼兒園的幼教師跟教保員的工作權益有沒有得到保障，我覺得這攸關會不會有虐童的機會，所以提高對準公幼的審查門檻以及嚴格的監督是必然的。","現在教育部正在擬定第3期的草案，目前的草案自今年8月起有要求師生比，就是當初我們努力的，從1比15到1比12，然後要上傳午餐跟點心的照片，還有教保人員的薪資要調整2,000元，也訂出所謂的退場機制。我要就教部長，因為幼兒園現在已經陸續在招生中，部長剛剛好像有回答，說3月底會交審查辦法的案子到各縣市政府讓它審查，審查應該也需要一段時間，所以如果有學校還沒申請過關，可是它已經招生了，導致報名好的學童們要改讀其他學校，這樣這些學生是不是有權益上的損失？家長是不是會措手不及？從總體面來看，教育部有沒有掌握第3期的規定上路之後，全臺灣到底有哪些準公幼會因此而退場？受到影響的學生數大約有多少？有沒有預警的機制讓學校端跟家長有所準備？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，確實目前第3期合作契約的條件正在做最後的確認，因為就是剛才委員所提到的教保服務品質、教保人員的待遇還有管理這件事情，再加上生師比的幾個政策，所以綜整後目前會在3月底正式對外公布，縣市也會依這個規範做後續的審查，如果有意願的。我也跟委員報告，我們會以私校退場條例的概念應用在這上面，如果這個幼兒園已經不再續約，但是他本來就讀小班、中班，還繼續在讀的這些孩子將列為我們一定會保障的對象，以家長權益的角度來思考，退場條例就是以這樣的模式思考的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長、謝謝召委。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.66784375,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.56596875,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.41346875,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.35971875,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.12784375000001,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.17596875000001,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.99909375000004,"end":312.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.11721875,"end":478.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.60909375,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.22221875,"end":396.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.57221875000005,"end":483.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.41096875000005,"end":484.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.42784375,"end":595.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.07284375,"end":615.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.54659375,"end":647.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.1028437500001,"end":663.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9272187500001,"end":674.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.69346875,"end":698.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.46721875,"end":692.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.7790937500001,"end":694.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.18784375,"end":697.77846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.57,"end":2.211,"text":"有請潘部長部長好"},{"start":9.465,"end":29.813,"text":"我想面對今天這個議題我們很清楚知道沒有人有權利剝奪他人的生命那也不論一時的憤慨或是年少輕狂都不是理由所以校園殺人事件而令人悲痛憤怒而且完全沒有辦法接受可是我既然今天要談到這個議題就要放下這個所謂的"},{"start":30.413,"end":56.47,"text":"施仁的情緒然後要用立法委員的身份來跟您來探討我們如何防範這個悲劇於未然那我們試著想像一個情境就假設有一個15歲的少年是A在他國小的時候媽媽吸毒致死那和他相依為命的爸爸欠債又所謂槍爆彈藥前科那少年A的爸爸再婚繼母又因為販毒被關"},{"start":57.651,"end":82.43,"text":"那請教這個少年A算不算處在高風險又或是所謂的脆弱家庭那我們是不是是否要在避免標籤化的情況之下及早及急介入在少年A成長的過程中就給予輔導那面對少年A的情況我們現行的機制到底有什麼樣的資源可以給予協助部長"},{"start":83.673,"end":108.658,"text":"我跟委員報告這個委員所敘述這家庭的狀況如果不涉及到我們少年本身他就是我們常態的孩子那當然對於他的處遇跟家庭這方面我想在學校還有我們相關的一些資源應該給予常態的教育如果是經濟弱勢委員知道我們有或是學習上的弱勢我們是有幾個機制可以去幫助"},{"start":109.218,"end":109.238,"text":"好!"},{"start":125.24,"end":125.6,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":156.341,"end":176.871,"text":"稱為犯罪者．最終受害的還是所謂的社會大眾那少年A的經歷當然是我杜撰的可是實際上就跟媒體所披露的就是2023聖誕節中午犯下新北國三那個少年殺人案那個郭姓少年的背景是相符合的是有點類似的"},{"start":178.192,"end":200.127,"text":"那所以悲劇已經釀成那我想說我們就要防止第二條生命不能再犧牲那換句話說郭姓少年已經鑄成大錯可是罪與罰之間該怎麼拿捏才能真正讓一位那麼年輕那可是又犯下重大錯誤的人同時他在受處罰的同時也能改過自新不要一步錯步步錯"},{"start":201.508,"end":216.633,"text":"所以我們放在心上一件事就是說對於這些相當小的年紀就犯下大錯的人來看對他來講還是來日方長所以我們其實是要我們多的是我們跟他在社會上"},{"start":217.133,"end":218.654,"text":"曾在會後表示,將會與地方及民間合力擴充"},{"start":240.862,"end":261.573,"text":"提到的就是所謂的中介教育基地．並建立個案輔導的評估機制那金本辦跟徵詢專家的結論那專家所關心的包含以下幾點第一個就是建立所謂中介教育基地那要配置充足的心理專業人員"},{"start":262.914,"end":266.478,"text":"第二是我們這個處法少年回歸校園前的所謂的個案轉型的會議相當重要因為這個個案轉型的會議不只是一場會議而且它是一個緊密的網誌就像我們秀愛PTT一樣"},{"start":278.01,"end":296.367,"text":"他其實是需要跨越部門跟專業的合作跟評估而且會議紀錄也應該正式發文讓各個單位配合辦理以便行政的溝通那第三是我們各縣市都有所謂的家庭教育中心那當然除了教育課程之外是不是也要針對"},{"start":297.688,"end":299.589,"text":"我跟委員報告有部份教育部這段時間給我來說明有些可能或許我們司法院或什麼來補充"},{"start":320.299,"end":320.479,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":339.943,"end":340.143,"text":"主持人林宜瑾"},{"start":359.338,"end":360.078,"text":"林宜瑾教育部委員會主席"},{"start":385.185,"end":385.245,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":406.309,"end":406.429,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":427.931,"end":428.091,"text":"林宜瑾"},{"start":447.097,"end":471.277,"text":"一過這一段以後適不適合回學校我想用這樣的專業做評估應該會更客觀也會讓這些學生在回歸前得到比較適切的評估跟安置這個是我想對於目前我們在整個跨院的合作裡面這個都有共識那教育部啟動中介基地的協助縣市已經啟動那司法院這邊2月1號開始的那個事辦計畫我有詳細讀過真的也就是過去學校反映到"},{"start":476.662,"end":482.567,"text":"從頭到後面的追蹤也能確保少年在保護管束的過程當中是真正有調整"},{"start":484.468,"end":508.97,"text":"那接著因為最近有保姆虐童的事件先期社會很大的討論那本席對這起事件也感到傷傷痛心那我們為了防止這樣的悲劇再次發生所以是立法跟行政單位都絕不能這個懈怠的責任所以其實幼兒園也屢屢出現這種不當對待學童的事件那剛好准公幼"},{"start":509.611,"end":533.452,"text":"今年8月將邁入第三期 原所準備要重新申請這是一個全面檢視准公幼的機會包括他的辦學、教學、保育品質等等那我想之前全教總我指出准公幼政策上路之後統計六都違規的比例達到三分之一就等於說"},{"start":534.113,"end":559.339,"text":"每三家准公幼就有一家是有違規紀錄的那家長把心安寶貝送到幼兒園那必定是希望寶貝受到最好的照顧那本席對虐童絕對是零容忍所以我想對於幼兒園的幼教師跟教保員的工作權益有沒有得到保障我覺得這個攸關這個會不會有虐童的這個機會所以我想提高審查的門檻"},{"start":561.019,"end":576.743,"text":"對幼準工與審查嚴格監督這是必然的現在教育部正在擬定第三期草案目前的草案我想自今年8月起有要求師生筆當初我們努力的從1筆15到1筆12當然還要上傳午餐跟點心的照片還有教保委員的薪資要調整調整2000塊"},{"start":586.966,"end":614.475,"text":"有訂出所謂的退場機制那當然我要就叫部長是說現在因為幼兒園已經陸續在招生中那部長剛剛好像也有回答說3月底會交這個審查的辦法這個案子到各縣市政府讓他審查那審查應該也需要一段時間所以如果有學校還沒有申請過關可是他已經"},{"start":615.675,"end":633.205,"text":"早晨早生了就已經導致報名好的學童們可能要改讀其他的學校這樣對這些學生是不是有權益上的損失家長是不是會措手不及那從總體面來看教育部到底有沒有掌握我們第三期規定上路之後那全台灣到底有"},{"start":633.945,"end":663.406,"text":"那些總公幼會因此而退場那受到影響的學生數大約有多少那有沒有預警的機制預警的機制讓學校端跟家長都有所準備部長我跟委員報告確實目前這一個第三期的合作契約的條件正在做最後的確認因為就是剛才委員所提到教保服務品質、教保人員的待遇還有管理那件事情還有加上生殖比的幾個政策"},{"start":664.286,"end":672.55,"text":"重診後目前在3月底會正式公布對外那縣市也會依這個規範來做後續的審查如果有意願的那我也跟你們報告這個我們私校退場條例的概念會應用在這上面如果這個幼兒園已經不再續約那但是他本來就就讀小班、中班還繼續在讀的這些孩子會列為我們一定會去保障家長的權益的角度來思考"},{"start":692.68,"end":692.78,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝召委"}]}},{"id":"149991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8c4e274a72b7217b25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a60726145194e09ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:16:35 - 11:32:58","影片長度":"00:16:23","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":983,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:32:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:16:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1078,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時16分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好，部長你也辛苦了！我想請教一下，這一次發生這麼重大的兒虐事件，它是在12月發生，請問你是什麼時候知道有這個事件？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是最近才知道的。"],["王委員育敏：也是看報紙，3月11號嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們同仁跟我報告的時候我才知道的。"],["王委員育敏：本席也是，我也是3月11號看到報紙之後，才知道發生這麼重大的事件。也就是說，每一個系統都會有疏漏，就是第一線的人員都知道，但是沒有向上通報，包括兒福聯盟也有同樣的問題，它第一時間都通報了政府機關，但是它沒有向上通報，連董事都不知道，所以都要看報紙才知道。我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況，保護司第一時間知道了，社家署也接獲了，但是反而高層都不知道發生這麼重大的兒虐事件，所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分。我要再次強調，發生重大兒虐事件，對於一個生命的失去，這個都是大人的責任，我們都應該要深自檢討，這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作。對於上午民進黨還做這樣的一個議事發動，干擾整個議事進行，我真的覺得高度遺憾，因為每一個人都有責任，我覺得我也有責任，部長也道歉了，大家都是想要守護孩子的人，都不希望看到這樣的事情發生，我覺得大家應該要秉持這樣的原則，事情才可以做好，部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做？"],["薛部長瑞元：的確，每一個單位其實在整個事件裡面有脫離不了的責任，但重點在於以後要怎麼樣做、怎麼樣改進，預防未來再度發生。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我們就進到專業的討論，針對整個社會安全網2.0，我看到政府也撥了407億，但是我們看到這個圖表，整個兒虐的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰。包括去年光是上半年，我們看到的兒少受虐死亡的有10件，通報的受虐案件高達2萬8,000件，我不曉得你們的年度統計出來了沒，因為你們現在好像更新的速度比較慢、找不到，如果已經統計出來，是不是可以告訴大家現在最新的數據？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於致死的案件數，112年致死的是25件，111年是14件，110年是27件。111年可能是還在疫情當中，案件數是比較少的，112年，也就是去年就回復到疫情前的案件數。"],["王委員育敏：也就是去年一整年還有發生25起兒童受虐致死的案件。所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題，雖然我們有社會安全網，但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少。當然我也知道我們很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題，這方面的惡化與此相關，但是也代表政府社會安全網的責任其實需要把這個網更張開，讓大家的力量更強大。但是我真的也覺得很可惜，看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象，就是無論是中央的部會之間，或者是中央跟地方之間，大家第一時間都會先說好像不是它的責任，但是我要講一個概念，如果要把社會安全網做好，是每一個人都把手伸出來，多伸出手就會變成一張網，但是大家如果都把手縮回來，都說不是它，那這當中當然球就會漏接，就會有問題。","所以我覺得既然是社會安全網，其實每一個單位都跑不掉，每一個都有責任，大家就認真地來看待、來檢討。但是我發現社家署跟保護司兩個單位的橫向溝通聯繫真的是出了問題，好像沒有辦法一起把這件事情做好，而是會分說這個是你的，就是分得有點太清楚，這個部長剛剛自己也講了，你要怎麼解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在……"],["王委員育敏：因為簡署長和張司長其實都擔任過兒童局局長，如果是事權統一，過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題，會認為都是自己的事，但是現在因為兒童局不見了，沒有一個專責單位，然後兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的、這是我的。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣，包括地方也是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！那怎麼解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為地方把它分得很清楚，所以它才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的責任……"],["王委員育敏：對，所以部長我現在就請教你，你也看到了，你是大家長嘛！這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個部分的話，第一個當然是組織文化，也就是不踢皮球的組織文化必須要建立起來，不管是在中央或地方，這都是必須要去做的。第二個，這個文化建立起來之外，實際上的作為也必須要有一些機制，對於這種權責不明的事情，就要有一個機制，就往上報，如果有不明的地方就由上級來決定是由誰來處理，在地方和中央都必須要這樣做，所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講，如果不明的話就要報到我這邊來，我說了算。"],["王委員育敏：要向上通報。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我說了算。"],["王委員育敏：不可以討論就沒下文，然後就不處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個是權責不清，衛福部是整個社福的大家長，我希望部長一定要看到這個問題，然後去把它整合在一起，這個我覺得非常重要。","第二個，這次爆發事件之後，我們發現每一個系統它的訪視頻率其實都不一樣，在我整理的這張圖表看到，從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日托居家托育，其實它的強度都不一樣，訪視頻率也不一樣，這次發生的案件就是在居家家外安置裡面產生了問題。就我來看，寄養家庭其實過去施行得比較久，所以它整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的，第一個月是每週訪，第二個月是隔週訪，第三個月是每月一訪。我要問部長的是，同樣都是需要被安置的孩子，在寄養系統相對完整，但是在居家家外安置就相對沒有那麼嚴謹，這樣子是不是產生品質不一？孩子的安全我們怎麼去做到位？現在解方是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，當然這些都是原則性的一些規範，但是這裡並沒有考慮到小孩子的狀況是怎麼樣，因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話，其實他個別狀況是不一的，所以有一些必須要把頻率增加，有些可能按照原來的規劃就好，要有一個制度能夠去分別，就是……"],["王委員育敏：現在的制度是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在的制度並沒有特別對哪一些經歷的……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們還要研議嗎？還是……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們會儘快地研議出來，針對一些特殊的個案、特殊背景的個案，要如何加強訪視……"],["王委員育敏：因為這件事情爆發之後，大家都說訪視的頻率要增加，我也贊成，但是訪視頻率增加的背後是社工的工作量加大。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：如果中央因為訪視頻率增加但不給更多的社工人力，我只能說這個是雪上加霜，對社工來講，你是壓垮他，因為你是加量不加價，就是一直叫他拼命去訪視，但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了，再暴增他會 burn out。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以是對特定的對象增加，並不是全盤都要增加。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分我要問衛福部，你們是不是準備好了？就是我希望你們要好好地去研議，因為現在安置的數量有一千一百多件，你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次，那就是兩千多件。兩千多件的個案數，一個社工大概平均是15件，你要增加好幾百位的社工，就是你有多少資源，還有社安網2.0原來的407億恐怕是沒有這一筆錢，你就是要多增加新的錢，包括社工的人數要增加多少經費，還有中央喊出來之後，地方政府可不可以跟上？還是地方在訪，不是中央在訪啊！那它有額外預算嗎？我也待過地方政府，大家都很吃緊啊！就是中央一聲令下之後，地方有沒有這個財源，還是中央可以全部買單？","另外一個是幼兒專責醫師，現在它的財源也到114年，這樣的一個計畫要不要繼續下去？所以整個的配套，當然事件發生到現在，你們可能還沒有想好，但我覺得這是一件重要的事情，我希望部長可以督促，然後這件事情是真的要做到位，而不是喊出來就好，喊出來可以喊很快，但是如果沒有到位，一樣補不了這樣的一個破網，這個是不是可以承諾好好去研議？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個是有關於增加訪視的部分，必須是針對問題，哪一些對象需要增加訪視，並不是普遍的都要增加訪視，這是第一點。第二個，委員提到專責醫師，幼兒專責醫師的計畫到今年，所以我們已經在寫下一期了，最近就會送到行政院，因為必須要編列預算。"],["王委員育敏：而且這一個部分的經費一定要到位，就像早上陳菁徽醫師也已經在講，基層的醫師對這件事情也有所顧慮，顧慮在哪裡？這個就是我下一個要講到的，爆發這麼重大的事件，大家都很難過，也很遺憾，也認為應該要檢討，但不是獵巫式的檢討，因為這一次針對社工的部分，包括上了手銬，這部分全社工界大家都非常震驚，覺得重創了整個社工的士氣，所以連醫生看了也很害怕。剛剛那個新聞是醫生說我將來如果加入這個體系，我看過的孩子萬一出事了，我是不是會被獵巫、我是不是會被嚴重的究責？所有的錯好像是他一個人要擔起來。","我覺得面對這樣的一個現象，部長，你做為整個社福的大家長，對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐，我也知道很多社工人員要在320去表達他們的權益訴求，因為在這一波當中，他們覺得整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的。我看到勞動部他們針對弱勢的勞工其實有委託法扶，它有一個專案，就是他如果有官司的問題，它其實是可以幫他的。在這一次的相關事件當中也發現社工的風險不只是人身安全，他可能會涉及到被起訴，然後後面有法律訴訟的問題，這個部分我也希望衛福部是不是可以幫所有的社工來考量到？如果他在執業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴，有一些法律訴訟的問題，是不是可以比照類似的專案去支持他們？因為社工的薪水普遍都不高，多數的社福機構其實財力也沒那麼好，萬一他們在執業過程當中產生這樣的一個風險，我們是不是也一樣可以來協助？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，如果是屬於公部門社工的話，我們都有這樣子的機制來協助他們……"],["王委員育敏：你們有沒有委託方案？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。我們會委託一些律師，這個部分我們會來處理。但是如果是屬於私部門社工的話，接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣子的計畫，尤其是像這種比較高風險的，可能會容易出問題的這個部分，機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。接下來，我要請警政署的副署長，部長先回去休息。警政署也是整個社會安全網的一環，但是我們發現在這次事件當中，警政署在執行過程中以一個粗暴的方式，把這名社工上銬，然後也沒有做任何的處理，引發社工界大反彈，而且打擊社工的士氣。我們的社會安全網需要廣大的社工來執行，但是你們這樣一個比較粗暴的作為、不審慎的作為，卻引發整個社工界的反彈，而且重挫士氣。針對這件事情，副署長是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉，這個執行過程太粗暴、以後會改進？"],["詹副署長永茂：針對社工被上銬這個案件，其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環，大家平常合作也都非常好。這件事情在執行的過程當中，真的是忽略了應該保護當事人權益的問題、人權的問題，所以這個部分臺北市已經有調查，帶隊的這個隊長已經被處分了，我在這邊也可以當面跟社工致意，我們都是夥伴，未來我們要再繼續合作，我們會要求我們的同仁在未來的執行上面要做一個改正。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席也要求，因為的確你們是一體的，社會安全網不是社工安全網，每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助，不能因為自己執行過程的粗暴作為而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣，所以我希望警政署回去也跟……","今天也有法務部的代表，在相關案件執行的過程當中，一定要更審慎地去處理，才不會導致像這次又另外引發這麼大的一個風波，也導致社工還要上街頭來抗議。所以我希望警政署回去之後可以好好研議更細膩的處理方式，好不好？"],["詹副署長永茂：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，最後本席要說，社會安全網如何持續強化，其實每一個部門、每一個單位，大家都有責任，我也覺得衛福部的社工、相關的人員也非常地辛苦，因為所有的工作都重壓在衛福部身上。今天出席的各單位，你們也都有你們的責任，大家應該都要多出一份力，我們的社會安全網才可以更強韌，我們才可以保護住更多的孩子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：我們請邱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.16159375,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.14721875,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.67409375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.984718750000003,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.07284375,"end":31.215968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.034718750000003,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.59971875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.274718750000005,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.49096875000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.37971875000001,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.85471875000002,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.81096875,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.81971875000002,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.15284375000002,"end":165.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.94596875000002,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.15659375,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.16346875000002,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.00721875000002,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.14159375,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.79534375,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.11409375000002,"end":203.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.63221875000002,"end":254.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.31096875,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.91096875000002,"end":288.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.62534375,"end":300.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":319.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.72784375000003,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.33471875000004,"end":325.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.83221875000004,"end":333.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.43471875,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.96159375,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.79659375,"end":341.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.78346875,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.31346875,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.30909375000005,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.54034375000003,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.13846875,"end":381.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.32159375000003,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.46909375,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.95846875,"end":388.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.02596875,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.07659375000003,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.10159375,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.01284375,"end":386.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.10096875000005,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.65034375000005,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.43846875,"end":460.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.35159375,"end":459.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.92096875000004,"end":465.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.73034375000003,"end":472.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.26096875,"end":493.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.88034375,"end":477.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.91409375,"end":478.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.06596875,"end":478.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.59596875000005,"end":489.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.37596875,"end":493.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.43471875000006,"end":495.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.77221875000004,"end":496.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.90284375000005,"end":507.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.93909375000004,"end":537.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.06096875,"end":542.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7947187500001,"end":549.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.0715937500001,"end":581.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.9697187500001,"end":581.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.5772187499999,"end":597.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.5578437500001,"end":600.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.5278437500001,"end":602.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.1772187500001,"end":603.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3415937500001,"end":622.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.7353437500001,"end":624.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.7859687499999,"end":623.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.69721875,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.91784375,"end":644.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.33096875,"end":646.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.7990937500001,"end":652.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.07659375,"end":774.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.09971875,"end":783.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.01846875,"end":783.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.9253437500001,"end":791.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.6203437500001,"end":795.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.8390937500001,"end":800.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":801.15471875,"end":803.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":803.92221875,"end":809.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":809.54159375,"end":812.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.0009687500001,"end":813.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.7265937500001,"end":816.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.3715937500001,"end":819.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.0334687500001,"end":828.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.23471875,"end":839.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.0347187500001,"end":866.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":868.36784375,"end":871.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.9622187500001,"end":874.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.57784375,"end":876.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.05846875,"end":886.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.62659375,"end":891.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.67221875,"end":893.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.41034375,"end":898.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.9284687500001,"end":899.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.8059687500001,"end":902.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.4722187500001,"end":905.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":905.64471875,"end":908.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.3403437500001,"end":979.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":981.10971875,"end":984.5859687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.892,"text":"請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?"},{"start":26.258,"end":32.668,"text":"我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道"},{"start":34.816,"end":61.456,"text":"我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況"},{"start":62.176,"end":86.915,"text":"你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討"},{"start":87.956,"end":117.035,"text":"那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做"},{"start":117.455,"end":130.039,"text":"的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的"},{"start":146.684,"end":146.924,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":168.226,"end":174.23,"text":"在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件"},{"start":184.878,"end":202.365,"text":"但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數"},{"start":202.685,"end":220.693,"text":"也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少"},{"start":221.633,"end":248.88,"text":"那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家"},{"start":250.04,"end":274.348,"text":"第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了"},{"start":274.588,"end":286.406,"text":"每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法"},{"start":291.636,"end":314.506,"text":"這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的"},{"start":319.941,"end":338.6,"text":"委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對"},{"start":339.361,"end":357.255,"text":"所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些"},{"start":358.856,"end":379.964,"text":"就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來"},{"start":382.943,"end":410.458,"text":"要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣"},{"start":411.198,"end":427.663,"text":"在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題"},{"start":428.459,"end":449.131,"text":"那就我來看 寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系 坦白講是比較完整的他是 第一個月是每週訪 第二個月是隔週訪 第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說 同樣都是需要被安置的孩子 在寄養系統相對完整"},{"start":449.531,"end":449.912,"text":"現在解方是什麼?"},{"start":461.37,"end":487.756,"text":"這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別"},{"start":488.616,"end":517.287,"text":"那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大"},{"start":517.947,"end":534.604,"text":"如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了"},{"start":539.908,"end":560.701,"text":"所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工"},{"start":561.181,"end":580.98,"text":"就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪"},{"start":581.741,"end":596.041,"text":"那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年"},{"start":597.603,"end":621.851,"text":"那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網"},{"start":623.011,"end":639.515,"text":"這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫"},{"start":645.756,"end":668.037,"text":"下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討"},{"start":669.378,"end":684.498,"text":"但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣"},{"start":685.76,"end":708.489,"text":"所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長"},{"start":709.349,"end":735.674,"text":"對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題"},{"start":736.434,"end":758.685,"text":"他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個"},{"start":761.986,"end":764.647,"text":"這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有"},{"start":784.011,"end":811.878,"text":"有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫"},{"start":813.858,"end":839.126,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工"},{"start":842.345,"end":866.021,"text":"社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進"},{"start":869.396,"end":870.941,"text":"針對這個社工被上銬這個案件"},{"start":872.028,"end":897.124,"text":"其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的"},{"start":899.185,"end":908.337,"text":"夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正"},{"start":909.369,"end":933.225,"text":"好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理"},{"start":935.026,"end":935.306,"text":"社會安全網"},{"start":952.166,"end":952.306,"text":"主席"},{"start":981.621,"end":984.098,"text":"謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員"}]}},{"id":"149990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a15384bd30b0cb5fc1b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a6109c112c25b928345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:21:31 - 11:33:31","影片長度":"00:12:00","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":720,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:33:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:21:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":721,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時21分）謝謝主席。有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。今天的專報是針對ETF熱賣，從2月份交易熱絡的前十大ETF來看，其標榜的投資標的很多都是高股息、高股息、高股息，幾乎占了一半以上，「高股息」3個字好像成為必勝命名方程式，一定會大賣，主委也是這麼看嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想它只是標榜它的成分股過去的股利比較好，但是我不太適合做評論，是不是必勝我不能做評論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：大家都喜歡用這3個字。沒有關係，你說要看成分股，我們來看上個月、2月前四名的 ETF成分股，其實很類似、非常類似。為什麼我們會關心這個問題？以2月四大高股息的ETF成分股來看，當中的大聯大在這四家ETF的占比將近18%，也就是ETF甚至已經要成為公司最大股東，換算下來約30萬張持股，如果以日均成交量1萬張計算，一旦發生變動，最多需要30天才賣得完，這會造成流動性的影響。我想要請教主委，金管會是不是有針對全臺股ETF市場的流動性進行壓力測試？看看是不是太集中某些部分股票？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員，您非常專業，您提到的某一檔股票，在整個ETF成分股中也許有一些這種情況，但是極少的個案。至於有沒有可能同賣同買的情況，在我們的報告中，我們在今年1月份就請交易所、櫃買中心就整個市場風險的監控去建立制度，目前正在研究中，我想這就是我們要處理的問題，但是這個問題不見得會發生，只是把制度精進。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們也不專業，絕對沒有你專業，我們只是提醒而已。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員比較專業，你剛剛問的問題都非常深入標的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們只是擔心，像我們看的這四家，如果它的成分股過度集中，就會帶動指標公司的漲跌，我們也會擔心這會邊緣化一些中小型股，造成後續籌資困難。另一方面也擔心公司因為配息不足，就會被踢出成分股，公司又為了增加配息就會減少一些投資，進而影響到公司的成長。剛剛你有說，如果評估有影響的話，金管會的強化控管措施是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個正在研究中，主要就是如果成分股集中在某幾檔上市公司，對市場波動有沒有辦法有流動性的因應管理，這部分正在研究處理，但是目前還沒有這個問題，因為整個交易的市值大概占每天1%左右，基本上應該還不到大家關心的會不會操控股價的部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。我們總是希望未雨綢繆，因為我們的投資者很多都是小資族，他們都是很辛苦的，都是畢生積蓄。我們看到這一次00940沸沸揚揚的新聞，它的討論度、聲量上個禮拜一度比柯文哲還要高。為什麼我們會提到這個，因為我們有憂心，其實上週央行總裁來也有被問到這個問題，有問到楊總裁怎麼看ETF，你知道他怎麼回答嗎？您不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好像圖上面有看到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，他說就是一群羊跳下去，一群羊跳下去，如果是正常的羊還好，我們擔心帶頭的是間諜綿羊。我們可以看到它的討論度很高，在Dcard上出現很多推薦文，我們也不知道這是真正的投資客發文，還是投信去買網路的行銷廣告。所以我想要特別請教主委，針對這種網路行銷廣告，你們的專案金檢是不是應該要一併檢查？未來是不是也要強化揭露？我的意思是例如他發文的時候，是不是要要求他揭露是誰委託發文，也就是廣告主是誰？當他推文的時候，也要寫他是代表某某投信，資訊揭露是很重要的，我們會朝這個方向去做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的，我們目前不論在日常監理，或是最近做了一些檢查，也看到投信公司有這種跟網紅之間的關係，網紅有不當行銷的缺失，所以我們會在6月底之前跟投信投顧公會擬訂一個自律規範去做處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，謝謝主委。關心這個問題就是因為看到很多小資族，新聞上也看到有出家人，因為央行的利率不高，銀行的定存利率也低，又看到ETF的月配息高且穩定，所以大家就解除定存買爆ETF。我是這樣想，除了加強管制及節流之外，金管會也要開源，提供其他好的金融商品，像最近金管會提出的不動產證券化（REITs），其實相對的就是租金收益、利息是穩定的，但是我們也是覺得有一些隱憂，怎麼說呢？就是它會不會影響住宅市場，讓房價上升？又或者因為它也可以投資一些基礎設施，民眾能不能參與綠能投資？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們要送給大院審查的投信投顧法裡面所謂的REITs沒有連結住宅，所以不會有大家顧慮的會使房價上升的問題，但是它有包括綠能投資，只要它能夠有固定的現金流量，是可能被證券化的，以上跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。我現在要提到另外一個問題，我知道環境部有委託金管會協助建置溫室氣體減量額度交易機制，簡單來講，就是碳交易機制。我也看到你們的報告提到，2023年證交所會蒐集國外溫室氣體自願交易機制及經驗供環保署參考，我想要請教主委，各國交易機制報告已經完成了嗎？是不是有對外公開？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，這應該是去年上半年根據氣候變遷因應法，當時有立委建議在那邊加一個由環境部指示相關主管機關，所以就指示金管會請交易所配合，所有相關的政策都是配合環境部去處理的，金管會本身沒有涉入。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：至少你們去年底已經進行了第一拍國際碳權的掛牌交易。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好像是12月22號。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對！12月嘛，去年年底，第一次第一拍還售出了8.8萬噸碳權，國內有27家的企業都已經搶購一空，其中萬海也已經抵銷2,000噸的國際碳權，而且打造一個叫「日、台碳中和航線」，我想請教國內呢？國內碳權交易機制的建置狀況呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為這個剛剛也跟您報告過……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：環境部？"],["黃主任委員天牧：碳交易所是由環境部的政策所主導的，不是我們。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以意思就是環境部提供的方法學，都是由它來發號施令？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們只是被動的，它叫你們做什麼，你們就做什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它請交易所成立一個碳交易所去配合，我們是不是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我問過環境部啊！至少我也想要問一下主委國內碳權交易的建置狀況，而且520以前會不會有第一批的國內碳權上架？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請交易所的簡總經理來說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒關係，就簡單回答。"],["簡總經理立忠：我們在國內減量交易的建置上，在7月份會有初步的建置架構。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以7月會有，對不對？"],["簡總經理立忠：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我之所以這樣子講，從上週的新聞我們可以看到百噸以下的碳交易免手續費，而且是環境部擬修正避免業者規避，結果細看內容上面是寫在3月8號的說明會，與會的金管會代表認為未達100公噸的小額交易若免收5%手續費，事業單位有可能藉此將大額交易切割成小額交易來規避手續費，表示金管會的意見很有影響力。我覺得並不是那麼有道理，甚至我覺得這種講法並不是那麼有道義啦！為什麼？因為金管會碳交所可以透過你們的監督機制去防止切割，為什麼要因噎廢食？為什麼要因大廢小？因為你要知道手續費過高是不利小額交易沒有錯，但我們要講很多都是小額交易啊！我是原住民，我很關心，很多的原住民族人都很關心碳匯、碳定價。","我們來看一下全臺的原保地有6.7萬公頃，以原保地來看，領這些禁伐補償的平均每一個人會有1.5公頃，未來我們無論採「既有人工林的疏伐與再造」或「森林經營碳匯」方法學專案，我們都希望是以小額的自然人為主體，所以現在大家詬病的是for企業，對於國內碳權，我們也一直在等。主委，我想請教你，後續您認為碳交易的參與者是不是應該要納入自然人？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，這些東西都是環境部在規劃，可是您今天對我們的指正，我們會再跟您請教，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，謝謝。因為你們一定有一個平臺會開會，我希望這個地方也能夠有一個共識，知道我們在想什麼，所以你們的意見很重要，主委，我的意思是這樣。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我是不是請相關同仁包括交易所，去您辦公室跟您請教？可以嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接著我們請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.949718750000001,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.11284375,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.563468750000002,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.504093750000003,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.48284375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.751593750000005,"end":38.455343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.92784375,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.984718750000006,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.047218750000006,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.36284375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.88909375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.92534375000001,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.40159375,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.12721875000001,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.94534375,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.85659375,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.76596875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.83659375000002,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.40909375,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":166.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.09346875,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.14784375000002,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.69596875000002,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.69159375,"end":207.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.96034375000002,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.37346875000003,"end":259.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.93409375000002,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.87221875,"end":263.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.24721875,"end":268.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.64721875000004,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.87034375,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.09721875,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.78909375,"end":280.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.74659375000005,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.39596875,"end":335.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.83909375,"end":358.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.59534375000004,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.25346875,"end":385.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.47284375000004,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.40784375000004,"end":415.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.69596875,"end":415.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.33721875000003,"end":438.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.26784375000005,"end":428.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.44346875,"end":446.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.21846875000006,"end":474.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.77096875,"end":484.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.47846875000005,"end":498.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.46784375000004,"end":505.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.24346875000003,"end":506.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.53846875000005,"end":512.9465937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.0647187500001,"end":530.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.6484687500001,"end":533.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.8503437500001,"end":542.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.8247187500001,"end":537.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.97159375,"end":544.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.1440937500001,"end":547.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.62471875,"end":550.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.7803437499999,"end":555.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.88096875,"end":559.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.7578437500001,"end":559.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.80846875,"end":559.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.85909375,"end":559.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.8759687500001,"end":559.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.8928437500001,"end":566.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.9265937499999,"end":560.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.1828437500001,"end":569.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.4440937500001,"end":570.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.1103437500001,"end":581.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.75034375,"end":616.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.35221875,"end":618.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.30971875,"end":655.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.74284375,"end":656.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.72159375,"end":690.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.9228437500001,"end":697.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.37346875,"end":697.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.4578437499999,"end":700.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.8584687500002,"end":699.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.9553437500001,"end":713.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.3472187500001,"end":703.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.53159375,"end":718.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.6828437500001,"end":715.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.9697187500001,"end":721.40346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.177,"end":8.118,"text":"有請主委委員好"},{"start":16.762,"end":38.198,"text":"謝謝主委今天專報是來報ETF熱賣那我們從去二月份交易熱絡的前十大ETF我們可以看一下他們標榜的投資高地很多都是寫高股息、高股息、高股息那幾乎是佔了一半以上"},{"start":38.999,"end":45.844,"text":"那也就是說高股息三個字呢好像成為必勝的命名方程式就是一定會大賣主委你也是這麼看嗎"},{"start":50.407,"end":69.958,"text":"我想他只是標榜他成份股可能過去的這個股力比較好這個我想這個我不太適合做評論是不是必勝不能做評論大家都喜歡用這三個字那沒有關係你說要看成份股我們看一下上個月二月"},{"start":70.999,"end":87.608,"text":"前四名的ETF我們看一下它的成分股其實很類似非常的類似那為什麼我們關心這個問題因為我們可以來看以這二月四大高股息的ETF它的成分股當中的大聯大"},{"start":89.273,"end":104.551,"text":"幾乎他們這四家就已經佔比將近18%也就是說ETF甚至已經要成為公司最大股東那再換算看他的30萬張持股如果以他的日均成交量"},{"start":105.231,"end":127.671,"text":"一萬張計算如果發生什麼變動一旦發生什麼變動它最多是需要30天才賣得完就會造成流動性的影響所以想要請教一下主委金管會這邊是不是有針對全台股ETF市場的流動性進行壓力測試看看是不是太集中某一些部分股票"},{"start":130.273,"end":144.658,"text":"謝委員您非常的專業我想您提到那個某一檔股票那個應該在整個ETF的成分股中沒有那麼大概就也許有一些這種請問那是極少的個案但至於說有沒有可能"},{"start":145.478,"end":166.026,"text":"同賣同買這個情況我想在我們的這個報告中我們在今年1月份就請交易所供來中心就這個整個市場風險的監控去做建立制度目前大概有一些有正在研究中我想這就是我們要處理的問題但是這個問題不見得會發生只是把制度上去精進"},{"start":167.145,"end":182.351,"text":"好,因為我們也不專業啦,絕對沒有你專業,我們只是提醒而已因為我們只是擔心說,像我們看這四家,如果他的成分股過度集中,他就會帶動指標公司的漲跌"},{"start":183.211,"end":207.535,"text":"那我們也會擔心說他會邊緣化一些中小型股那造成後續的投資困難那另一方面呢也擔心公司因為配息不足那公司他就會被踢出一些成分股那公司又為了增加配息他就會減少一些投資那影響到公司的成長所以剛剛你有說那如果評估有影響的話那金管會的強化控管措施會是什麼"},{"start":209.471,"end":227.723,"text":"這個正在研究中主要就是這種如果成分股集中在某幾檔上市公司那這種如果對市場上的波動上他有沒有辦法有流動性的這個因應管理這部分正在研究處理但目前我想還沒有這個問題因為"},{"start":229.364,"end":244.522,"text":"整個的交易的市值在每天大概1%左右基本上應該還不到大家關心的會不會操控這個股價這個部分好 謝謝主委我們總是希望未雨綢繆因為我們的投資很多都是小資族"},{"start":245.523,"end":267.725,"text":"其實他們都是很辛苦都是畢生的積蓄那我們這裡呢就是看到這一次的這個0094年的這樣的一個沸沸揚揚的新聞他的討論度聲量呢我們可以看到上個禮拜一度比柯文哲還要高那為什麼我們這裡會提到這個因為我們有憂心啦其實上週"},{"start":268.746,"end":275.831,"text":"央行總裁來也有被問到這個問題那有問楊總裁說他怎麼看ETF你知道他怎麼回答嗎"},{"start":278.103,"end":303.978,"text":"您不知道齁好像圖上面有看到對他說就是一群羊跳下去啦齁那一群羊跳下去齁如果是正常的羊還好我們是擔心說如果帶頭的是間諜綿羊啦那在這裡我們就可以看到他討論度很高以這個Dcard來講齁他就會出現很多的推薦文那我們也不知道這是真正的投資客的發文還是投信他是去買網路的行銷廣告"},{"start":305.318,"end":323.186,"text":"所以在這裡就是想要特別請教主委針對網路的這種行銷廣告你們的專案經檢是不是應該要一併的檢查那未來是不是也要強化揭露我的意思是說例如他發文的時候是不是要去要求他說是誰委託發文"},{"start":324.326,"end":335.596,"text":"也就是說廣告組是誰那當他做推文的時候也要寫他是代表某某投信我想這個資訊揭露是很重要的那我們會朝這個方向去做嗎"},{"start":336.949,"end":358.045,"text":"是的我想委員這也是我們看到目前不論在我們日常監理或是我們最近做了一些檢查看到了投信公司有那種跟網紅之間的關係然後網紅做不當的行銷的缺失所以我們會在6月底之前跟投信投物公會擬定一個自律規範去做處理"},{"start":358.345,"end":377.957,"text":"嗯很好謝謝主委那關心這個問題就是大家因為看到我們很多的小資族新聞上也有出家人吼那就是因為央行的利率不高嘛那銀行的定存利率也低又看到ETF它的月配息高而且穩定所以呢大家就解除定存"},{"start":379.458,"end":394.615,"text":"來買報這個ETF那我是這樣想除了加強管制它節流我覺得金管會也是要開源提供其他好的金融商品那像最近金管會提出的這個REIT它的不動產證券化"},{"start":396.477,"end":413.372,"text":"他其實相對的就是租金收益利息是穩定的齁但是我們也是覺得有一些隱憂啦怎麼說呢就是他會不會去影響住宅市場讓房價上升又或者因為他也可以去做一些基礎設施那民眾能不能參與這種綠能的投資主委"},{"start":416.694,"end":437.569,"text":"謝謝委員我們的要送給大院審查的投信投估法裡面的所謂的REIT它沒有連接住宅所以不會有大家顧慮會使房價上升的問題但是它有包括這種綠能投資只要它能夠有固定的現金流量它是可能被證券化的所以這個是跟委員報告"},{"start":438.47,"end":458.228,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我現在就是要提到說另外一個問題因為我知道的是環境部有委託我們金管會要來協助建置溫室氣體減量額度的交易機制簡單來講就是碳交易機制那我們也看到你們的報告有提到說2023年"},{"start":460.009,"end":473.907,"text":"政交所會收集國外溫室氣體自願交易機制跟經驗供環保署參考想要請教一下主委各國交易機制報告已經完成了嗎那是不是有對外公開"},{"start":476.436,"end":497.887,"text":"這個跟委員報告這應該是去年上去年上半年我們根據氣候邊遷因應法當時有立委建議在那邊加一個由環境部指示什麼相關主管機關所以就指示金管會請交易所配合所以這個相關所有的政策都是配合環境部去處理的金管會本身沒有去涉入"},{"start":498.493,"end":512.167,"text":"好 那至少你們去年底你們已經進行了第一拍嘛國際探訪的掛牌交易對 12月嘛 去年年底而且呢 這個第一次第一拍還售出了8.8萬噸的探訣然後國內呢 有27家的企業"},{"start":516.932,"end":532.45,"text":"他們都已經搶購一空那其中呢萬海他也已經抵銷了2000噸的國際探權而且他有標榜一個叫日台探中和航線那我想請教國內呢國內探權交易機制的建制狀況呢"},{"start":534.875,"end":554.557,"text":"大委員因為我剛剛跟您報告過環境部這碳交易所是環境部由環境部的政策所主導的所以意思就是說環境部提供的方法學都是由他來發號施令是你們只是被動的他叫我們做什麼我們就做什麼他請交易所成立一個碳交易所去配合"},{"start":555.298,"end":568.998,"text":"我會去問我問過環境部啊那至少我也想要問一下主委就是國內探權交易的建制狀況而且520以前會不會有第一批的國內探權上架我請那個交易所檢總經理來說沒關係就簡單回答"},{"start":572.413,"end":588.35,"text":"我們在國內減量的這個交易的建置上面呢初步在7月份會有初步的建設好 所以7月會有對不對我之所以這樣子講齁上週的新聞我們可以看到百噸以下的碳交易免手續費"},{"start":589.511,"end":616.348,"text":"而且是說環境部擬修正避免業者規避結果呢 細看內容他上面是說在3月8號的說明會與會的金管會代表認為未達100噸的100公噸的小額交易若免收5%的手續費事業單位有可能會藉此將大額交易切割成小額交易來規避手續費表示金管會的意見很有影響力"},{"start":617.849,"end":634.318,"text":"那我是覺得我覺得並不是那麼有道理甚至我覺得這種講法並不是那麼有道義啦為什麼因為金管會攤交所你們可以透過你們的監督機制去防止切割啊為什麼要因業費時為什麼要因大費小"},{"start":634.958,"end":653.687,"text":"因為你要知道手續費過高是不利小額交易沒有錯但是我們要講的就是說很多都是小額交易啊我是原住民我很關心很多的原住民族人都很關心碳匯碳定價我們來看一下全台的原保地有6.75"},{"start":657.249,"end":676.267,"text":"以元寶地來看領這些淨法補償的平均每一個人會有1.5公頓1.5公頃那我現在是說未來如果我們無論採既有人工林的書法與再造或森林經營碳匯的方法學專案我們都希望是以小額的自然人為主體"},{"start":677.108,"end":690.361,"text":"所以現在大家詬病的就是否企業嘛所以國內探權的我們也一直在等所以呢我是希望說主委我想請教你探交易的參與者後續您認為是不是應該要納入自然人"},{"start":691.943,"end":716.58,"text":"我跟您報告這個東西都是環境部在規劃可是您今天對我們的指正我們會再跟您請教因為你們一定會有一個平台會開會所以我希望我們這個地方也能夠有一個共識知道我們在想什麼所以你們的意見很重要主委我是會請相關同仁包括交易所去您辦公室跟您請教好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a392c3a16ded37c7b87ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a63fbee1faf659eafd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:13:19 - 11:25:03","影片長度":"00:11:44","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":704,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:25:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:13:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時13分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。其實的校園的憾事我們都不希望它再重演，我們都希望積極的預防，所以今天就來跟部長討論一系列的一些相關的預防措施。首先，我們可以看到這張圖表，我們學校的校安事件是屢創新高，尤其是在國小增加了非常多的數量，前面的委員也有關心到，你有提到你們會修改任用條例來增補人力，是嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該這樣子說，這個數字今天有幾位委員關心，我說它是一個通報的數據，這也是教育部的態度，希望學校不要隱匿、學生也儘量不要隱忍，所以數字會增加。"],["張委員雅琳：所以就變成是大家積極通報是嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：對，因為這個……"],["張委員雅琳：所以這次是反應之前可能大家沒有通報的狀態？"],["潘部長文忠：因為過去社會都會關注說，感覺好像學校是不是還有很多黑數，所以這個是我們近年一直在強調的重點，課予學校有這樣的通報責任，包含把通報的機制像是專線，改成用比較簡單的1953的概念，這個數字真的增加了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：那委員剛才提到有關我們依照原來學生輔導法，目前都在增補當中的輔導教師跟專輔的人力，國小的部分會再提前到116學年度來完成，我跟委員報告，後續國中跟國小會增加二千多位輔導教師。"],["張委員雅琳：那校安人員的部分呢？"],["潘部長文忠：學務的這一塊我們有分階段來執行，因為現在負擔比較重，國中尤其大型規模，在既有的員額編制準則中，61班以上它可以來增加1到3位。過去我瞭解到縣市可能經費有限，這樣的學校也沒有真的讓它……雖然有準則可依據，但沒有實際執行，現階段因為規模越大，要處理的事務越多，這個我們會優先補助縣市把這個做成。"],["張委員雅琳：這是國中小都會一起嗎？還是只有國中而已？"],["潘部長文忠：主要是國中，後續會把員額準則再跟縣市討論，要做一個修正，希望不是只有61班以上，希望在30班以下或30到60，國中階段真的孩子也處於身心發展變化大的時期，這個部分我們會第二階段處理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我瞭解了，那我想知道這大概是什麼時候會去進行呢？國中的這個部分。"],["潘部長文忠：有關61班以上的這部分……"],["張委員雅琳：是現在嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我們現在就會進行，因為它的準則已經確定了。"],["張委員雅琳：那低於60班以下呢？"],["潘部長文忠：那個因為要跟縣市討論，大概需要差不多1、2個月的時間……"],["張委員雅琳：2個月？好。"],["潘部長文忠：因為修了準則，縣市才會一起啦！因為等於說涉及到人事編制的問題。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那相關的那些計畫，還有後續如果有一些什麼追蹤的話，再提供給我們辦公室。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。再來第二個部分，因為我們有分8類校安事件，其實8類裡面都有一個叫做其他的選項，其中我發現最多的校安事件其實是暴力事件與偏差行為，這是統計的數字。我觀察到我們有一個選項增加了73%，叫做其他校園暴力或偏差事件，等於說這個數量增加了這麼大，到底是不是有新型態的暴力事件出現了，而我們沒有發現呢？你們有詳細的去瞭解這裡面的類型嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分除了這幾大項以外，其實我有請校安中心同仁再細分更多，因為細分更多會比較真的去聚焦。確實委員所提的這一類，就是當時我們在分類上可能比較沒有那麼明確的，包含我們說網路霸凌等等的事項，他們會把它歸在其他這一項。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。所以在什麼時候我們可以看到這些更新型態，就是更細緻分類的報告？"],["潘部長文忠：這個我有請校安中心已經整理了，我再把那個資料給委員看。"],["張委員雅琳：已經整理了？OK，好，謝謝你。"],["潘部長文忠：整體數據是這樣，只是它的分類更細。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。那我想請教部長，你們還有沒有再分類到地點這件事情？因為它到底發生在什麼地方，其實也是蠻重要的，可是我從現在的報告是沒有看到的。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，那個可能要到我們校安通報的系統資料庫裡面，其實我有請他們定期要把幾個更……就是造成這方面困擾更大的，或發生頻率更高的這些有提，但是沒有到每一個個案都分到這麼細。"],["張委員雅琳：我想講的就是說，因為之前我們是有補助到地方縣市政府，要在教室裡面裝設緊急電話或是急救鈴，可是如果我們沒有真正的瞭解事件是發生在哪裡，那有可能我們做這件事情是沒有辦法解決問題的。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，那個應該不是教育部的政策，應該是有部分縣市……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我說地方縣市政府。"],["潘部長文忠：提出來以後，大家也發現到這個可能要斟酌。我跟委員報告，過去這幾年教育部在有關校園內，我們叫做治安死角，也就是孩子比較少去的地方或像廁所等等的，其實補助了將近十九億多，就是希望能夠改善這些孩子在那裡萬一碰到什麼，可以緊急……"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。所以我們在校安通報裡面是可以看到詳細的地點？"],["潘部長文忠：比如急救鈴或是照明，因為有些地方很陰暗。"],["張委員雅琳：我瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：這連大學都補助。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以我們其實在校安通報可以看到這些詳細地點的分類對嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：應該說歸類比較重要的幾項類型。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。那再下一題，上個禮拜桃園市的快樂國小他們其實有做一個演習，就是演習真的有外人闖進校園的時候、要找小孩算帳的時候，大家應該怎麼辦。這個演練的過程非常逼真，小孩都留下了很深刻的印象，校方也說這可以提供小孩的安全意識。我也知道在104年的時候，其實教育部是有頒布一個強化校園安全防護機制的實施計畫，並且要求全國高中以下的學校來執行，那我想知道這個計畫現在還在執行中嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員提到成立應變小組還有演練，演練是各種的……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：每學年至少要一次。"],["張委員雅琳：每學年至少要一次？"],["潘部長文忠：原因就是因為現在怕學校有時候會覺得平常可能也沒有特別去注意會不會發生什麼事情，當時我們就說你一定要有演練應變小組才知道，譬如碰到一個孩子像我們說發生的這些事件，你一定要有個怎麼樣的啟動，後續才會去做其他的整個處理，甚至疏散等等，這個不演練，其實事情發生一定會手忙腳亂。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，所以我們現在是有提供不同的腳本給學校嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這個部分我跟委員報告，其實對這方面最熟悉的是我們相關的警政單位，幾乎每個學校都要做，就是要跟警政單位做這種支援的系統，這當中在服務的項目裡面也有包含巡查跟演練的規劃。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解，每個學年現在是有要求的。我們其實現在有一個東西，不知道部長知不知道這一個案例，就是「釜石奇蹟」，當時在311大地震的時候，這個學校的小孩幾乎是99%存活下來，他們在國中畢業之前接受了35個小時的防災教育，所以是非常多的，所以我希望我們應該要提供不同種的腳本，然後讓小孩可以充分地去練習各種情境，這樣他在面對事故或是意外的時候才可以去因應，所以我覺得每學年至少一次這件事情……"],["潘部長文忠：這是現在委員所提到的規範。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，但是剛剛有講到還有沒有其他的腳本這個部分，我覺得也是需要去提供的，這個是不是可以跟警政單位一起來討論提供給學校？"],["潘部長文忠：可能要討論，但是那個比較不可能把每一個細項都這樣子去……"],["張委員雅琳：我們可不可以針對幾個常常發生的一些意外事故？"],["潘部長文忠：可以啊！"],["張委員雅琳：因為我們有統計了嘛！一定有這些事故可以去模擬。"],["潘部長文忠：如果說有一些我們比較常見的類型，譬如剛才講到什麼外人進入、侵入，或是學生突然發生情緒的……"],["張委員雅琳：對，或學校的這些衝突之類的。"],["潘部長文忠：我們把這些歸納來跟警政單位，找學校現場做一些……應該說可參考的範本啦！"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：好不好？因為這樣的話我覺得比較能適用啦！"],["張委員雅琳：好喔！最後一個問題我想要討論，就是有關於上次我也有質詢有關於中介教育的部分，上次我們其實有在講，當時部長是有說3月底嘛，但是我看到今天的口頭報告變成是5月的時候才會……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，3月底我們會把補助縣市建置的機制給縣市，因為這之前跟縣市討論了三次……"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：那也希望縣市……因為我們也有跟民間團體討論，所以……"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，好，那我想問一下，現在提到是5月會完成跟他們至少簽妥這個，所以是……"],["潘部長文忠：就合作契約。"],["張委員雅琳：對，合作契約，我想要知道現在各縣市簽妥的狀況是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，因為我們3月才會把……"],["張委員雅琳：所以都還沒有簽？"],["潘部長文忠：對，因為也聽取縣市很多的意見，他們認為民間團體合作是一個模式，他們縣市自己本身也有公設的部門，他們也認為可不可以也有這種，我說本來就是多元，但目標都是一個，這次的對象有特別談到可能就是曝險少年跟司法少年為主要對象。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，那我再直接問下一個，進去中介基地之後，他們會受什麼樣子的教育？會不會有常規正常的教育去協助他們，不要剝奪他們的受教權？第二個部分剛剛其實前面的委員也都有提到，我想要問的是少保官如果覺得小孩可以離開了，但是校方覺得不可以，那這個學生會怎麼辦？可不可以請……"],["潘部長文忠：剛才廳長有特別提到一個，他們在試辦的計畫裡面，其實我有詳細讀過這個規劃，這個規劃就會跟學校教育體系的連結更緊密，因為過去少保官、少調官說真話對這些曝險少年才是真正有約束的，他可以重新再看孩子的表現再做裁定，他也可能讓他再回少觀所，可能再回矯正學校，一般教育人員可能比較沒有辦法屬於這種對象。未來如果我們中介基地的安置，這個討論的前提也是由這個，我們說在做裁決前的討論跟決定，事後追蹤我想也希望幾個專業的人力跟機關也能夠一起，這個才能夠真的貫徹啦！"],["張委員雅琳：好，再最後一句話，剛剛好像還是沒有聽到他到底在這個中介基地會不會有常規的教育，所以也許我們事後也可以再跟教育部請教，因為我還是想要確保孩子在這邊有足夠的受教權。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：再來還有一個，校方如果拒絕的時候該怎麼辦？校方如果不讓他回去的話呢？這我們事後再來詳細地討論，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：是，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。接下來我們請登記10號林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.134093750000002,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.189093750000005,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.307218750000004,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.34096875,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.032843750000005,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.681593750000005,"end":49.424093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.24659375,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.946593750000005,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.92096875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.05159375,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.10471875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.26846875000001,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.36721875,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.95909375000001,"end":141.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.03784375000001,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.67971875,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.40096875,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.27721875,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.63909375,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.48659375,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.08096875,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.56159375000001,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.67096875000001,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.45971875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.45096875000002,"end":183.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":178.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.91409375,"end":181.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.47909375,"end":220.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.23784375000002,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.89534375000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.06659375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.71909375,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.14909375000002,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.26221875000002,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.41409375,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.24909375000001,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.75096875000003,"end":254.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.29096875000002,"end":256.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.21034375,"end":265.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.66034375000004,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.72596875,"end":286.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.16409375,"end":282.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.83846875,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.49409375000005,"end":307.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.35034375000004,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.84784375000004,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.91534375000003,"end":341.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.48846875000004,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.12034375,"end":320.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.06909375000004,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.06721875,"end":338.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.70784375,"end":340.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.32784375,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.91846875000005,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.00221875,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.63471875000005,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.23784375,"end":387.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.61596875000004,"end":425.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.08346875,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.27284375000005,"end":397.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.97909375,"end":413.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.11221875,"end":427.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.45784375000005,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.51159375000003,"end":434.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.22284375000004,"end":450.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.01096875,"end":454.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.89659375,"end":494.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.73971875,"end":489.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.12659375000004,"end":498.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.16034375000004,"end":495.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.18534375,"end":497.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.23159375000006,"end":504.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.37409375000004,"end":510.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.23034375000003,"end":507.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.22159375,"end":508.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.74471875000006,"end":527.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.14909375,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.0047187499999,"end":521.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.2565937500001,"end":530.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.54721875,"end":537.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.00596875,"end":539.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.84534375,"end":540.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.24159375,"end":551.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.52721875,"end":562.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.59784375,"end":558.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.27284375,"end":558.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.0234687500001,"end":569.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.3015937499999,"end":563.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.4990937499999,"end":570.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.11909375,"end":573.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.2578437500001,"end":575.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.31659375,"end":577.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.72159375,"end":595.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.1472187500001,"end":579.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.5222187500001,"end":582.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.74159375,"end":582.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.33096875,"end":591.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.70159375,"end":618.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.3015937499999,"end":644.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8415937500001,"end":668.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.6640937500001,"end":646.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.24284375,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.2890937500001,"end":673.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.73159375,"end":692.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.2109687500001,"end":684.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.6484687500001,"end":693.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.7490937500002,"end":700.98471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.45,"text":"主席"},{"start":15.331,"end":41.331,"text":"部長好就是說今天呢因為其實校園的事情和事我們都不希望它再重演嘛所以我們都希望積極的預防所以今天就來跟部長討論一系列的一些相關的預防措施那首先呢是說我們可以看到這張圖表就是說我們學校的校園事件是屢創新高尤其是在國小增加了非常多的數量那在前面的委員也有關心到說你有提到我們會增加一個會修改這個任用條例來增補人力嘛是嗎"},{"start":42.091,"end":44.113,"text":"這次是反映了之前可能大家沒有通報的一個狀態"},{"start":63.507,"end":77.291,"text":"因為過去社會都會有關注說感覺好像學校是不是還有很多黑數所以這個是我們近年一直在強調的重點刻意學校有這樣的通報責任當然把通報的機制像那個專線改成用比較簡單的18531953的概念"},{"start":82.232,"end":103.01,"text":"這個數字真的增加了那我應該提到的就是說有關在我們依照原來學生輔導法目前都在增補當中的輔導教師跟專輔的人力那國小的部分會再提前到116學年度來完成這樣子我跟你們報告後續國中跟國小會增加2000多的輔導教師"},{"start":107.093,"end":113.735,"text":"副導教師那校園人員的部分呢?那個部分因為學務的這一塊我們有分階段來執行因為現在負擔比較重國中尤其大型規模既有的員偶編制準則61班以上他可以來增加一到三位那過去我了解到縣市可能經費有限這樣的學校也沒有真的去讓他雖然有準則可依據但沒有實際執行"},{"start":134.702,"end":161.172,"text":"現階段因為規模越大要處理的事務越多啦這個我們會優先的來補助縣市能夠把這個做成就是國中小都會一起嗎還是只有國中而已主要是國中後續會把原有準則再跟縣市討論要做一個修正希望不是只有60一班以上希望在30班以下或30到60這個國中階段真的孩子也處於在身心發展變化大這個部分我們會第二階段處理"},{"start":162.5,"end":167.362,"text":"這大概是什麼時候會去進行呢?有關61班以上的這部分我們現在就會進行因為它的準則已經確定了在低於60班以下呢?因為還跟縣市討論大概需要差不多一兩個月的時間因為那個修了準則縣市才會一起因為等於說涉及到人事編制的問題"},{"start":183.527,"end":202.735,"text":"好,那相關的那些計畫還有後續如果有一些怎麼追蹤的話再提供給我們辦公室,謝謝那再來第二個部分就是說因為我們可以看到就是說我們的這個因為我們有分八類相當於事件嘛那其實八類裡面都有一個叫做其他的選項那其中呢我發現這個最多的暴力事件其實是暴力事件的偏差與偏差行為所以這是統計的數字"},{"start":204.396,"end":230.764,"text":"其中我觀察到我們有一個選項增加了73%叫做其他校園暴力或偏差事件等於說這個數量增加了這麼大到底是不是有新型態的暴力事件出現了而我們沒有發現呢?我們有詳細的去了解這裡面的類型嗎?這部分除了這幾大項以外其實我有請同仁、校安中心這邊再細分更多因為了解細分更多會比較真的去聚焦"},{"start":231.164,"end":231.324,"text":"3月18日、20日及21日"},{"start":248.737,"end":265.169,"text":"這個我有請校園中心已經整理了我想把那個資料再給委員看整體數據是這樣只是它的分類更細了解那我想請教部長那我們還沒有再分類到地點這件事情因為它到底發生在什麼地方其實也是蠻重要可是我從現在報告是沒有看到的"},{"start":265.869,"end":286.037,"text":"那個可能要到我們那個校安通報的系統資料庫裡面其實我有請他們定期要把幾個更我們說看起來就說造成這方面困擾更大的或發生頻率更高的這些有提但是沒有到各個每一個個案都分到這麼細"},{"start":287.097,"end":305.889,"text":"因為我想要講的就是說因為之前我們是有補助到地方縣市政府地方部組是有補助說要在校園裡面裝設教室裡面去補裝設這個緊急電話或是急救靈而是如果我們沒有真正的了解事件是發生在哪裡那有可能我們做這件事情是沒有辦法解決問題的那個應該不是教育部的政策應該是有部分縣市"},{"start":308.07,"end":310.092,"text":"提出來以後大家也發現到這個可能要斟酌啦因為我跟委員報告過去這幾年教育部在有關校園內我們叫做自然死角啦也就是比較孩子少去的地方或像廁所等等的其實補助了將近19億多"},{"start":325.845,"end":326.145,"text":"張雅琳教育部長"},{"start":352.141,"end":374.42,"text":"上個禮拜有個桃園式的快樂國小他們其實有做一個演習去來演習就是說真的有外人闖進校園的時候呢要找小孩算帳的時候大家應該怎麼辦那這個演練的過程是非常的逼真那小孩都留下了很深刻的印象那校方也說這可以提供小孩的安全意識那我也知道就在104年的時候其實教育部是有編"},{"start":375.641,"end":394.879,"text":"有頒布一個叫做強化校園安全防護機制的實施計畫．並且要求這個全國高中以下的學校來執行那我想知道這個計畫現在還在執行中嗎是因為委員提到那個成立應變小組還有演練演練是各種的然後每學年至少要一次"},{"start":395.62,"end":424.608,"text":"每學年至少一次原因就是說因為現在怕學校有時候會覺得平常可能也沒有特別去注意會不會發生什麼事情那當時我們就說你一定要有演練你一面小組才知道說真的碰到比如說啦碰到一個孩子像我們說發生的這個事件你一定要有個怎麼樣的啟動才會後續去做其他的整個處理甚至疏散等等的這一些這個不演練即使不是可能事情發生一定會手忙腳亂"},{"start":425.128,"end":425.288,"text":"請教育部長"},{"start":452.322,"end":470.655,"text":"我們其實現在有一個東西就是說因為其實校部長知不知道這一個案例就是說腐蝕奇蹟就是在那邊的小學當時在三一大地震的時候這個學校的小孩幾乎是99%的一個存活下來那他們在國中畢業之前接受了35個小時的防災教育"},{"start":471.115,"end":472.136,"text":"這件事現在委員所提到的規範"},{"start":495.214,"end":495.875,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":515.858,"end":518.36,"text":"上次我也有在質詢有關於中介教育的部分。"},{"start":543.589,"end":560.027,"text":"中介教育的部分上次我們其實有在講那當時是部長有講說三月底嗎但是我看今天的口頭報告變成是五月的時候才會三月底我們會把補助縣市建制的機制給縣市因為這之前跟縣市討論了三次那希望說縣市因為我們也跟民間團體有討論"},{"start":561.829,"end":562.41,"text":"5月會跟他們簽妥合作契約現在各縣簽妥的狀況是什麼?"},{"start":577.183,"end":595.117,"text":"對 因為也聽取縣市很多的意見他們認為民間團體合作是一個模式他們也有縣市自己本身也有公設的部門他們也認為可不可以有這種機制我說本來就是它多元但目標都是有一個這一次的對象有特別談到可能就是暴險少年跟司法少年為主要對象"},{"start":596.257,"end":615.574,"text":"我再問下一個就是說因為中介基地進去之後他們會受到什麼樣子的教育會不會有常規正常的教育去來協助他們不要剝奪他們的受教權第二個部分就是剛剛其實前面的委員也都有提到那我想要問的是說少保官如果他覺得小孩可以離開了但是校方覺得不可以那這個學生他會怎麼辦"},{"start":618.915,"end":643.921,"text":"這次剛才聽長這邊有特別提到一個他們在事辦的計畫裡面其實我有詳細的讀過這個規劃這個規劃就會跟學校教育體系的連結會更緊密就是說如果因為過去少保官、少教官、少真化對這些不顯少年是真正才有約束的能力他可以重新再看孩子的表現再做裁定他也可能讓他再回"},{"start":644.941,"end":645.301,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":670.316,"end":691.577,"text":"好,那我想就是再做回一句話就是說因為剛剛好像還是沒有聽到說他到底在學校在這個中階地域會不會有常規的教育所以這個也許我們事後也可以再來跟那個教育部這邊請教因為我還是想要確保孩子在這邊有足夠的受教權那再來就是說還有一個就是說校方如果拒絕的時候該怎麼辦校方如果不讓他回去的話這也是我們事後再來詳細的討論,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":697.248,"end":697.669,"text":"登記10號 林一錦委員"}]}},{"id":"149988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a0c26b370b16c5da83919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a650bd84bcca1a34445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:08:23 - 11:21:50","影片長度":"00:13:27","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":807,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:21:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:08:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":815,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請蔡部長，也有請司法院的副秘。"],["主席：麻煩蔡部長、副秘書長。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他垂詢到相關的就自己自動上備詢臺，謝謝。大家早安。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我今天講話會氣比較虛一點，因為剛剛在另外一個委員會居然被委員暴力相向，所以有一點氣虛，但我還是會非常努力的來完成我今天的專業問政跟監督的工作。偵查不公開？偵查被公開！我們好好來探討這個問題。今天是318事件的10週年、318學運的10週年，這個臺灣歷史上、民主史上，以公民不服從為由發生的一個最大，到今天都還深受民主影響的社會運動的10週年，318的10週年帶給我們從政者什麼樣子的教訓？也就是告訴我們從政者，國家的權力再大，也不能夠傷害犧牲國家的前途，不能夠去輕忽公民的力量，對於政治工作者，318事件10週年給我們很大的反饋跟檢討。","今天站在我面前的是我們的法務機關，318事件10週年在司法面還是有很多值得我們探討、檢視的部分。部長知道嗎？在318學運事件當中，國家以侵入住居、毀損罪、妨礙公務等等對人民，尤其是學生為主，提告的案件有多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：我手邊沒有件數的數字，我們可以來瞭解，提供給委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：當時的行政院院長江宜樺對126名學生、平民提起這些告訴，所以它也成為臺灣司法史上規模最大的國家對人民提告的司法案件。我再進一步問部長，你知道嗎？人民也以自訴的方式向警察來追訴暴力犯罪，要求國賠，您知道有多少案件嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：也有這種案件。"],["吳委員思瑤：加起來大概也有將近100件。換言之，我剛剛為什麼說318學運是臺灣司法史上規模最大的司法案件？就是人民跟國家之間，前前後後有211人次成為被告或者原告。平民百姓要對付國家，被迫跟國家對簿公堂，很多是年輕人，歷經了6年到9年，陸陸續續終於獲得司法審判最後的正義。監察院在2023年曾經針對318學運國家的執法有作出調查報告，您知道嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我知道。"],["吳委員思瑤：監察院的報告非常清楚，它寫的是行政院，也就是國家、政府以違反比例原則之暴力手段來執行驅離是過當的，所以監察院具體在2023的調查報告糾正了行政院，糾正了內政部警政署，糾正了臺北市政府，也糾正了臺北地檢署。這個是監察院的報告，而整個事件只有1位臺北市警局的特勤中隊長被記申誡兩次，民眾控告警察的案子全部都敗訴，就是官告民的部分全部敗訴。當時打人的、對於人民施以暴力的、過當的、不符合比例原則的警察人員，至今查無此人，沒有任何人被究責，只有一個中隊長記兩個申誡，當時下令的指揮官在司法的審判下依舊無罪。我們非常感謝林全院長，他在2016年5月20日上任之後，快速針對江宜樺前院長對於學生平民提告的部分全部取消，因此讓很多平民百姓、學生不需要興訟，避免走入這樣辛苦的程序。","我講了這麼多，現在我們都要非常清楚地去檢視人民的力量、公民不服從，如果國會的多數利用多數的力量，當然這是一種民主選舉的結果，但是切莫提出違反國家前途、傷及人民利益的議案。我們很不希望318學運再次發生，如果國家過當的忽略人民的聲音，那麼勢必會再來一回。我在這裡提出來的是在司法面我們有值得檢視的意義，兩位收到、瞭解我想要垂詢於你們的內容嗎？這麼多、臺灣司法史上最大規模的國家對於人民提告的案件，人民是何等的弱勢？如果沒有林全院長當時主動撤銷對學生提告，這些學生持續地在興訟當中、求助無門，甚至有22位，包括林飛帆、陳為廷等等，他們的告訴也歷經非常多年，被檢察官起訴的22人走了曠日費時的程序，最終獲判無罪。這樣一個歷史教訓告訴我們，司法的審判不可不慎，司法站在人民這一邊，大家有 catch 到我的訊息嗎？","進入今天的主題，為什麼偵查要不公開？為了維護偵查程序順利進行以及有利於真實的發現，為了保障案件關係人的名譽、隱私及安全，為了落實無罪推定的原則，確保被告要受到絕對公平的審判，這就是刑事訴訟法第兩百四十五條所定偵查不公開的立法立意。你們組成了檢討小組，在上一級有督導小組，每半年要針對你們偵查有沒有公開的查處對外說明，對不對？程序上是這樣。但是我要很衡平的講，之前有很多委員都在說偵查不公開是笑話，這些委員要自我檢視，因為偵查不公開之所以有壓力的破口來自於兩端，一個是媒體，它基於報導的需求，想方設法去挖新聞、探新聞，也許媒體也有能耐介入檢調內部，你們確實有人會洩密，這個大家都要查辦。但是另外一端非常重要的就是，偵查不公開的壓力破口來自於政治力的介入，難道不是嗎？今天從頭到尾有多少委員就是造成了你們偵查不公開的壓力破口，就在今天、right now 的司法及法制委員會，政治力過當的介入偵查中的案件。我的說法，部長你們感同身受吧？你們也承受非常大的壓力。","我們來看幾個案例，以楊文科縣長的案例來說，如果任何一個報導的媒體有辦法去獲得機密資訊而率先揭露了，我也認為這要查、要辦，所以楊文科涉貪案的風暴被鏡新聞踢爆出來，這就違反了偵查不公開，現在有在調查嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：有。"],["吳委員思瑤：有在偵辦當中，那就好好查，我不介入個案。畢竟偵辦中的案件被媒體披露，當然就不應該有人洩密，該查就查。就楊文科的案子，另外一個部分的壓力破口就來自於政治人物，國民黨的立法院黨團公然召開記者會，給予檢調很大的壓力，第一個，政治力介入，國民黨的委員說楊文科要被聲援，一開始就說定了是司法的迫害，這是一種政治力的介入個案。第二個，國民黨的委員在記者會當中，還清楚地要求檢調說清楚、講明白，楊文科到底觸犯了貪污治罪條例的哪個部分，是天坑案嗎？還是其他案件？檢調要說清楚、講明白。這就非常清楚是國民黨委員利用記者會、利用政治的壓力，要求你們偵查要公開，不是嗎？你們很無奈，但是該堅持就堅持，該挺住就挺住。","對於金廈海域的事件，在野黨委員要求成立調閱小組，但是最終這個案子他們沒有提出，一個偵辦當中的案件，尤其涉及國家安全，國人都要站在國家執法的一方，都要站在司法審判獨立、超然、公正的一方，但是藉由成立調閱小組要去調閱偵查中的卷證，當然不行。鏡電視的案例也是，藍白委員要求成立調閱小組，就這個個案已經成立了，他們一樣違反了憲法。至於大法官釋字729號，我就不贅述了。立法委員調閱的資料不能夠逾越檢察官的調查權，偵查中的案件自不得來調閱相關卷證。","最後，我當然理解偵查不公開，你們有很大的壓力破口來自於政治力，但是你們該辦就要辦，該查就要查。108年到112年新聞檢討報告的偵查不公開查處，只查辦處分了2人。我進一步調閱你們每半年公告一次的偵查不公開查處，近兩年來22個地檢署處分了10人，桃園地檢4人、基隆地檢6人。針對偵查不公開案件的洩密，近兩年6個高檢署處分了多少人呢？處分了0人！你們的查處、查辦在查什麼的？如果我們都厭惡偵查不公開一再地被迫公開，你就要勇敢地去查誰洩密、誰逾越了法規、誰違反了刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條、誰違反了你們的偵查不公開作業原則，都要查！部長、副秘書長，你們針對這種查辦處分是0！這是查真的、查假的？辦真的、辦假的？來，您綜合回復。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝委員的指教。對於偵查不公開，我們一定要要求檢察官還有輔助的司法警察機關，在偵查案件當中一定要嚴守相關的規定，如果有洩密的話，我們一定要調查。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，嚴守之外，就有人不嚴守。"],["蔡部長清祥：對，如果有……"],["吳委員思瑤：不嚴守調查是這種數字、這種查辦，你覺得合理嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然要看每一個案件的內容，高檢署處分的是指它自己本身還是包括所有所屬的地檢？因為地檢有處分10個人。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個就應當你們來跟國會說明，我是自己去Google每半年的報告，一個地檢署、一個地檢署去調查，會後我們來討論這個部分，到底它處分的是哪些人？哪些人被調查確實涉及內部洩密卻沒有被處分？我想這是立委就通案的部分應當對你們提出的監督。但是對於個案的部分，我覺得委員們，我要再次提醒，我們都不要過當的讓政治力來介入司法、檢調，這是違憲的，我要再次強調。","不好意思，主席多給我時間，也謝謝兩位，我們好好針對這個部分，偵查不公開的爭議案件頻傳，可是我們的查處卻是個位數、卻是0！我怎麼樣都覺得沒有認真在捍衛偵查不公開該做的事，我們進一步討論，好嗎？謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在開始休息5分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來請林思銘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.29534375,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.919093750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.492843750000002,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.301593750000002,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.80909375,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.783468750000004,"end":46.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.58909375,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.765968750000006,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.899718750000005,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.89034375000001,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.29096875,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.06659375000001,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.23784375000001,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.69284375000001,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.75096875,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.24409375,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.63909375,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.45534375000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":131.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.68971875,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.70846875,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.64346875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.06096875,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.36846875,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.31534375,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.94721875000002,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.24221875,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.33846875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.37034375000002,"end":204.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.99034375000002,"end":207.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.20096875000002,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.05721875,"end":227.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.53534375,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.49284375000002,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.78784375,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.90534375000001,"end":238.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.55471875,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.45909375,"end":258.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.93971875,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.64284375,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.76659375,"end":291.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.86721875,"end":293.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.66846875000005,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.13596875,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.13534375,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.53409375,"end":318.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.98534375,"end":322.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.40659375,"end":328.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.68409375000005,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.84659375,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.94659375000003,"end":358.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.52346875,"end":373.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.91346875000005,"end":377.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.16596875000005,"end":380.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.68034375,"end":383.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.56596875,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.14784375000005,"end":388.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.99971875,"end":390.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.07534375,"end":409.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.94159375000004,"end":415.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.33721875000003,"end":426.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.81221875,"end":429.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.61346875000004,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.18659375000004,"end":436.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.46471875000003,"end":440.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.63284375,"end":443.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.80971875,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.36221875,"end":457.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.74846875000003,"end":463.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.09346875000006,"end":465.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.57846875,"end":474.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.94409375000004,"end":476.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.83409375,"end":478.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.36971875,"end":478.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.01096875,"end":479.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.80409375000005,"end":480.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.83346875,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.99346875000003,"end":486.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.09409375,"end":489.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.33409375,"end":490.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.44784375,"end":495.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.10534375000003,"end":503.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.15471875000003,"end":509.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.95971875000004,"end":512.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.4484687500001,"end":514.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.54534375,"end":516.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.24971875,"end":518.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.65034375,"end":519.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.20284375,"end":522.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.3247187500001,"end":527.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.48846875,"end":532.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.8715937500001,"end":537.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.00596875,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.11971875,"end":544.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.6672187500001,"end":547.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.1140937499999,"end":551.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.24846875,"end":554.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.8472187500001,"end":577.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.6240937499999,"end":579.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.22721875,"end":585.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.25159375,"end":589.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.3015937499999,"end":593.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.4740937500001,"end":596.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.52846875,"end":613.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.4878437500001,"end":615.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.0022187500001,"end":622.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.4272187500001,"end":624.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.3172187499999,"end":626.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.35909375,"end":629.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.0547187500001,"end":632.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.26534375,"end":645.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.3940937500001,"end":647.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.1828437500001,"end":653.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.49846875,"end":656.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.68784375,"end":663.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.1297187499999,"end":664.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.42909375,"end":668.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.93909375,"end":670.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.5209687500001,"end":672.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.9384687500001,"end":677.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.54534375,"end":688.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.1384687500001,"end":699.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.3940937500001,"end":707.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.2240937500001,"end":708.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.33784375,"end":712.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.23596875,"end":717.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.04534375,"end":735.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.93346875,"end":734.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.4309687500001,"end":739.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.0165937500001,"end":752.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.50846875,"end":767.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.9953437500001,"end":796.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.80096875,"end":805.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.7278437500001,"end":805.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.76159375,"end":806.58846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.559,"end":18.548,"text":"謝謝主席有請蔡部長也有請我們司法院的副秘副秘書長其他隨巡到相關的就自己自動上被巡台謝謝"},{"start":23.123,"end":45.421,"text":"好 大家早安我今天講話會氣比較虛一點因為剛剛在另外一個委員會居然被委員暴力相向所以有一點氣虛這樣但我還是會非常努力的來完成我今天的專業問証跟監督的工作好 偵查不公開偵查被公開我們好好來探討這個問題喔下一頁"},{"start":48.82,"end":65.349,"text":"但是我想今天是318事件的10週年318學運的10週年這台灣歷史上民主史上以公民不服從為由那發生的一個"},{"start":66.474,"end":88.95,"text":"最大也最為到今天都還深受民主影響的社會運動的10週年318的10週年帶給我們從政者什麼樣子的教訓也就是告訴我們從政者國家的權利再大也不能夠傷害犧牲國家的前途"},{"start":90.788,"end":118.021,"text":"不能夠去輕忽公民的力量我想這是對於政治工作者318事件10週年給我們很大的反饋跟檢討那今天站在我面前的是我們的法務機關318的10週年在司法面我們還是有很多值得探討的部分檢視的部分部長你知道嗎在318事件當中學運事件當中國家已侵入駐居毀損罪"},{"start":119.842,"end":124.887,"text":"當時的行政院院長江怡化對126名學生平民提起了這些的告訴所以他也成為台灣司法史上規模最大的國家對人民提告的司法案件"},{"start":146.775,"end":156.701,"text":"那我再進一步問部長你知道嗎人民也以自訴的方式向警察來追訴暴力犯罪要求國賠你知道有多少案件嗎也有這種案件"},{"start":159.13,"end":185.641,"text":"加起來大概也有將近100件所以換言之我剛剛為什麼說318學運是台灣司法史上規模最大的司法案件就是人民跟國家之間因為前前後後有211人次成為被告或者是原告所以呢平民百姓要對付國家被迫跟國家對付公帑很多是年輕人"},{"start":187.324,"end":193.446,"text":"你知道監察院在2023年曾經針對318學運國家的執法有做出調查報告你知道嗎?我知道監察院的報告非常清楚他寫的是"},{"start":210.16,"end":237.606,"text":"行政院也就是國家政府違反比例原則之暴力手段來執行驅離是過當的所以監察院具體的在2023的調查報告也糾正了行政院糾正了內政部警政署糾正了臺北市政府也糾正了臺北地檢署這個是監察院的報告而這整個事件只有一位臺北市警局的特勤中隊長被申見兩次"},{"start":239.639,"end":258.471,"text":"民眾控告警察的案子全部都敗訴了就是官告民的部分全部敗訴了當時打人的對於人民施以暴力的過當的不符合比例原則的警察人員至今查無此人沒有任何人"},{"start":259.963,"end":281.536,"text":"被究責．只有一個小隊．中隊長兩個身屆．當時下令的指揮官．在司法的審判下依舊是無罪的那我們非常感謝林全院長．他在上任之後2016年5月20上任之後．他快速的針對江怡化前院長．對於學生平民提告的這個部分．全部來取消"},{"start":282.813,"end":302.387,"text":"因此讓很多的平民百姓學生不需要去心送避免了去走入這樣一個辛苦的程序但我講了這麼多現在我們都要非常清楚地去檢視人民的力量公民不服從如果當國會的多數"},{"start":304.218,"end":322.406,"text":"利用多數的力量當然這是一種民主選舉的結果但是切莫不要提出違反國家前途傷及人民利益的議案否則我們我們很不希望有318學運再次的發生"},{"start":323.444,"end":341.931,"text":"但是如果國家過當的去忽略人民的聲音那麼勢必會再來一回我在這裡提出來的是在司法面我們有值得檢視的意義兩位收到了解我想要追尋與你們的內容嗎"},{"start":342.901,"end":357.897,"text":"就是這麼多臺灣司法史上最大的國家對於人民提告的案件人民是何等的弱勢?人民是何等的弱勢?如果沒有林全院長當時主動的撤銷對學生的提告"},{"start":358.838,"end":387.408,"text":"這些學生持續的在心頌當中求助吳門更甚至有22位包括林飛帆、陳維廷等等他們的告訴也歷經非常多年被檢察官起訴了22人也走了曠日廢時最終獲判無罪這樣一個歷史教訓告訴我們司法的審判不可不慎司法是站在人民的一邊大家有catch到我的訊息嗎"},{"start":389.042,"end":415.439,"text":"好 進入今天的主題為什麼偵查要不公開為了維護偵查程序順利進行以及有利於真實的發現為了保障案件關係人的名譽、隱私及安全為了落實無罪推定的原則確保被告要受到絕對公平的審判這就是《刑事訴訟法》245條所定的偵查不公開的立法利益"},{"start":416.4,"end":440.511,"text":"所以你們組成了檢討小組在上一集有督導小組每半年要針對你們去偵查有沒有公開的查處對外說明 對不對程序上是這樣 下一頁但是我要很橫平的講之前有很多委員都在說偵查不公開是笑話這些委員要自我檢視因為偵查不公開之所以有壓力的破口"},{"start":441.987,"end":463.216,"text":"來自於兩端一個是媒體他基於報導的需求他想方設法去挖新聞去探新聞也許媒體也有能耐去介入檢調內部你們確實有人會洩密這個大家都要查辦但是另外一端非常重要的就是偵查不公開的壓力破口來自於政治力的介入"},{"start":464.296,"end":486.03,"text":"難道不是嗎今天從頭到尾有多少委員就是造成了你們偵查不公開的壓力破口就在今天right now的司法法制委員會政治力過當的介入偵查中的案件我有我的說法部長你們感同身受吧你們也承受非常大的壓力好我們來看幾個案例下一頁"},{"start":487.13,"end":487.15,"text":"呃有"},{"start":515.592,"end":543.645,"text":"有在偵辦當中那就好好查我不介入個案畢竟偵辦中的案件被媒體披露當然就不應該有人泄密該查就查下一頁就楊文科的案子另外一個部分的壓力破口就來自於政治人物國民黨的立法院黨團公然召開記者會給予我們減掉很大的壓力第一個政治力介入國民黨的委員說"},{"start":545.855,"end":546.858,"text":"楊文科要備聲援"},{"start":548.154,"end":577.614,"text":"他一開始就說定了是司法的迫害這是一種政治力的介入個案第二個國民黨的委員在記者會當中還清楚的要求檢調說清楚講明白楊文科到底觸犯了《貪污治罪條例》的哪個部分是天坑案嗎還是其他案件檢調要說清楚講明白這就非常清楚是國民黨委員利用記者會利用政治的壓力要求你們偵查要公開不是嗎"},{"start":578.654,"end":591.738,"text":"你們很無奈．但是該堅持就堅持．該挺住就挺住．下一頁經新聞的案子．對不起．好,經銷海域的事件．在野黨委員要求成立調閱小組．"},{"start":593.559,"end":622.687,"text":"但是最終這個案子他們沒有提出一個偵辦當中的案件尤其涉及國家安全我們國人都要站在國家執法的一方都要站在我們司法審判獨立超然公正的一方但是藉由成立調閱小組要去調閱偵查中的卷證當然不行下一頁進週刊的案例進電視的案例也是藍白委員要求成立調閱小組就這個個案已經成立了"},{"start":623.487,"end":646.883,"text":"他們一樣違反了憲法大法官釋字729號下一頁我就不贅述了立法委員調閱的資料不能夠逾越檢察官的調查權偵查中的案件自不得來調閱相關卷證好下一頁再下一頁最後我要說"},{"start":648.243,"end":669.635,"text":"我當然理解偵查不公開你們有很大的壓力很大的壓力破口來自於政治力但是你們該辦就要辦該查就要查108年到112年新聞檢討報告的偵查不公開的查處只查辦處分了兩人下一頁我進一步調閱你們每半年公告一次的偵查不公開的查處"},{"start":673.024,"end":698.895,"text":"近兩年來22個地檢署處分了10人桃園地檢4人基隆地檢6人近兩年6個高檢署處分了多少人針對偵查不公開的案件的洩密呢處分了0人你們的查處查辦在查什麼的如果我們都厭惡偵查不公開一再的被迫公開你就要勇敢的去查誰洩密誰逾越了法規"},{"start":700.881,"end":716.812,"text":"誰違反了刑事訴訟法245條誰違反了你們偵查不公開的作業原則都要查部長、副秘書長你們針對這種查辦處分是零這是查真的查假的辦真的辦假的來您綜合回覆"},{"start":718.423,"end":735.06,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那對於偵查不公開我們一定要要求我們的檢察官還有輔助的司法警察機關在偵查案件當中一定要嚴守相關的規矩是 嚴守之外就有人不嚴守不嚴守調查是這種數字這種查辦你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":740.426,"end":767.198,"text":"當然要看每一個案件的內容啦那高檢署他處分的是指他自己本身呢還是說他所屬的包括所有的地檢因為地檢有處分的好 這個就應當你們來跟國會說明的我是自己去google每半年的報告一個地檢署一個地檢署去調查會後我們來討論這個部分到底他處分的是哪些人哪些人該他被調查確實涉及洩密"},{"start":768.138,"end":794.294,"text":"自己內部但是卻沒有被處分我想這是立委就通案的部分應當對你們提出的監督但是對於個案的部分我覺得委員們我要再次提醒我們都不要過當的讓政治力來介入司法檢調這是違憲的我要再次強調不好意思主席多給我時間也謝謝兩位我們好好針對這個部分偵查不公開的爭議案件頻傳可是我們的查處卻是個位數卻是零"},{"start":796.795,"end":796.855,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ae17b14a6459295411b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a68c2a9604825a3ee05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:10:05 - 11:21:20","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":675,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:21:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:10:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":683,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時10分）主席、各位列席委員。主席，我想請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。ETF熱賣，許多投資人不只解定存、拿房子貸款，一窩蜂地都搶著要買，有很多人買不到，菜市場在那裡買菜、買肉的那些大哥大姐也相爭去買，他連程序都可能不清楚。在這種市場的趨勢之下，投資人根本不瞭解基金的特性，這樣子進場，那就是投信公司的廣告跟網紅的宣傳，流動資金大量湧入ETF市場，投資人也是看到這些社群平臺還有網紅的說明去進行買賣。針對投信跟網紅的部分，修正相關規定，強化控管制度的部分，是不是請主委說明一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，謝謝委員您的垂詢。我想這部分的確是最近看到投信在行銷上的一個我們覺得需要立刻去調整的地方，因為這些網紅可能在現場沒有讓投資人理解到，其實他後面是有跟投信做連結的，所以對他的話術就可能覺得他是很公正的，其實他後面是有投信跟他有一些商業上的契約。這部分怎麼規範，我剛才在報告也有講，我們儘快6月底之前要跟公會把這個自律規範訂出來。"],["顏委員寬恒：6月？"],["黃主任委員天牧：最慢6月。"],["顏委員寬恒：最慢6月會把最新的規範提出來。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：這段時間我們要怎麼樣做一個有效的宣傳廣告，讓民眾可以瞭解到真正的實情狀況，因為這些網紅有一定的影響力。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：不要說公信力，說是影響力應該比較貼切。造成一窩蜂購買、搶快，到時候因為這樣而不當或者遭受到虧損，後來會衍生出更多的問題，也是金管會、主管機關到後來要面對的。所以我們6月底之前要把這個規範訂出來，但是這段時間，現在才3月，4、5、6……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我跟您報告，我們在報告中也有說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：還有3個月的時間。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，其實我們在去年11月就有請交易所、櫃買中心，我們會請公會用新型態的媒體，包括這些年輕人喜歡用的管道去宣導，讓他瞭解到投資商品該注意到的金融知識。"],["顏委員寬恒：這個商品安不安全、可不可靠，要靠主管機關做更多釐清。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們知道現在熱錢都在房地產，因為ETF這麼趨熱的情況之下，現在ETF總市值有多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：四兆多。包括債券比較多，債券型比較多，股票大概一兆五左右。"],["顏委員寬恒：四兆多，表示有這麼多的熱錢都跑到ETF這邊，是不是也分擔了一些跑到房地產去的錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我不是專家，我想大概民眾對於類似這種商品有一定程度的興趣吧！"],["顏委員寬恒：臺灣2月份的消費者CPI指數，年增率3.08，創2022年7月以來新高、最高，是不是民眾因為要抗通膨，所以把錢投到房市，又看到ETF這麼熱，大家搶著買，所以又把錢、又把銀行的定存，還有可能買賣房屋的錢，都把它移到這兩項，一個是房地產，一個是ETF，這樣子對整個經濟面的發展會造成什麼影響，可不可以請主委說一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想商品是中性的，當然臺股的ETF，可能最近這幾年臺股本身比較成長，所以大家看到過去的績效覺得可以繼續投資。當然ETF下面有不同的成分股，這些股票漲漲跌跌，總是有它本身的一些規則，我想還是要特別地、投資人還是要注意任何的ETF來看它成分股本身未來的整個漲跌，過去的績效不必然就保障未來的績效。"],["顏委員寬恒：平均地權條例新法在去年7月全面上路，最重要的就是禁止預售屋和興建成屋的換約轉售，違者可處罰50至300萬。當民眾購買預售屋，禁止轉約後，一旦反悔就只能夠選擇退戶，而退戶要收取高達15%違約金，民眾當然不願意被罰這一筆錢。當他發現自己購買的預售屋價格又上漲，那是不是就會轉介到檯面下的這種黑市交易？是不是這種情況，讓有心人就會在地下操作，這樣的情況發生，金管會要怎麼抑制炒房？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實您說的這部分是屬於不動產交易的實務，金管會在行政院穩健房市的政策下，基本上就是強化金融機構對於不動產授信的品質和風險管理，其他有一部分是中央銀行在選擇性信用管制上的政策。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然房價上漲的原因包含很多，材料變貴、工資增加、土地成本增加，對於房地產上漲的預期心理，不管推出怎樣的打房政策，投資人還是願意購買房子，就是希望抗通膨，讓錢能夠保值，就算打房的策略奏效，也沒辦法讓房價有效回跌，房價趨勢還是往上的。所以整體來講打房是不成功的，是不是？我可不可以請教主委，這個說法對嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會只是其中之一，我們不太適合去評估，但是基本上我們對於尤其是銀行的授信來講，對於建物跟不動產的逾放比例都是0.15、0.16左右，大概都很低，表示資產品質其實是可以的，是可以被接受的。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝主委。請主席請嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委請回座。副總裁，本席上個禮拜問過主計長，主計長說，如果把電費調漲考量進去，今年4月電費調漲，我國的通膨率依然會高於通膨警戒線，電費調漲勢必也是利率調漲與否的一個焦點，我想國人都非常關心這個議題。Fed在2月的CPI報告中升幅略高於預估，對降息將更加審慎。各國包含Fed、ECB都在考量降息的情況之下，我國是否有可能會因為電費的調漲反向升息，可不可以告訴我們？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我們在每次開理事會之前，都會做整體的物價、房地產市場的評估，因為我們禮拜四就要開會了，所以我今天不方便直接回答您這邊的問題。而且每一個國家的貨幣政策或利率政策，其實是根據它當時的那個資料去決定的，所以我們要等到禮拜四以後才會正式公布，我們……"],["顏委員寬恒：禮拜四才會有答案。我想問的是，升息是不是會因為電價調漲而受到影響，可不可以回答我是不是？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們看到原本去年底的預估是1.89%，現在因為預期電價調整，也造成一些預期心理的形成，所以我們可能會上調我們對物價的預測，其實貨幣政策除了考慮物價之外，還要考慮其他很多因素。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以就是會影響。升息是不是一種抑制熱錢投入房市的方法，我不知道，如果採取升息這個手段也一樣會付出經濟成長減緩的代價，不只這樣，所有的貸款族群都會受到影響，升息是不是唯一的方法、是不是一定會升息？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我們在討論貨幣政策的利率調整時，其實考慮的因素是多方的，絕對不是一個因素，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢。接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.94034375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.47534375,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.22971875,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.91721875,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.85784375,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.777218750000003,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.61659375,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.90721875,"end":38.455343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.79284375,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.986593750000004,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.56846875,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.580968750000004,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.78721875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.28471875,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.23784375,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.773468750000006,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.85784375,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.49034375,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.09721875,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.61534375000001,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.55596875,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.20534375,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.74909375,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.06096875,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.64721875000001,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.49909375,"end":88.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.46846875,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.31971875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.42346875000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.39284375000001,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.81846875000001,"end":119.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.33284375000001,"end":128.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.90534375000001,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.05284375000002,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.30159375,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.17784375000002,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.82721875000001,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.96596875,"end":147.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.94034375,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.08346875,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.63159375,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.92221875,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.98534375,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.13284375,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.99721875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.54096875000002,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.42659375000002,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.30784375000002,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.11784375000002,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.45909375000002,"end":177.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.77534375000002,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.94721875000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.20346875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.18096875,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.39159375000003,"end":209.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.44971875000002,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.39471875,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.03096875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.36846875,"end":217.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.85346875000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.47346875000002,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.66721875000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.65409375000002,"end":225.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.70034375,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.23971875,"end":230.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.29034375,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.02346875,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.58346875,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.73909375000002,"end":247.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.20721875,"end":256.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.07096875,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.03284375000004,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.05534375,"end":278.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.63721875000005,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.29096875,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.14721875000004,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.54784375,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.38721875000005,"end":287.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.15471875000003,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.20096875,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.48346875000004,"end":291.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.39034375,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.41971875,"end":296.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.26721875000004,"end":324.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.58784375000005,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.70471875000004,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.71284375000005,"end":334.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.70846875,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.02909375,"end":336.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.14284375,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.90159375,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.28909375,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.71909375,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.62159375000005,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.49471875,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.63784375,"end":356.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.62909375000004,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.01284375,"end":360.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.25721875000005,"end":362.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.33721875000003,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.87284375,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.99471875,"end":369.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.50471875000005,"end":370.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.28096875,"end":373.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.77846875,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.76971875000004,"end":377.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.73971875,"end":381.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.65471875000003,"end":384.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.06784375,"end":386.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.73846875000004,"end":389.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.55659375000005,"end":392.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.04971875,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.34034375000005,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.96471875000003,"end":397.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.31471875000005,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.07971875000004,"end":418.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.95284375,"end":424.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.52159375,"end":424.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.14596875,"end":425.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.56784375,"end":425.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.39471875000004,"end":426.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.41159375,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.97596875000005,"end":434.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.76471875000004,"end":438.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.64596875,"end":447.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.89346875,"end":452.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.32721875000004,"end":458.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.60909375000006,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.97534375000004,"end":464.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.47721875,"end":470.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.55221875,"end":474.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.07909375,"end":489.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.54096875000005,"end":489.79409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.79409375000006,"end":489.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.82784375000006,"end":489.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.87846875,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.91221875,"end":492.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.88221875000005,"end":494.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.31221875000006,"end":496.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.02096875,"end":496.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.01596875,"end":501.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.36596875000004,"end":503.26034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.17159375000006,"end":505.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.48784375,"end":505.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.51284375000006,"end":512.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.5203437499999,"end":527.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.6784687500001,"end":531.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.6272187500001,"end":533.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.49596875,"end":535.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.9978437500001,"end":536.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.48721875,"end":537.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.44034375,"end":542.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.7265937500001,"end":548.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.3503437500001,"end":559.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.8503437500001,"end":562.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.9978437500001,"end":564.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.5459687499999,"end":572.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.9540937500001,"end":585.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.2178437499999,"end":590.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.9934687500001,"end":592.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.3647187500001,"end":593.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.6597187500001,"end":595.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.10659375,"end":596.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.6928437500001,"end":598.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.6459687500001,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.3547187500001,"end":608.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.2903437500001,"end":613.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.93159375,"end":609.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.24721875,"end":616.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.4197187500001,"end":632.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.3178437500001,"end":621.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.6215937500001,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.97596875,"end":622.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.14034375,"end":624.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.1059687500001,"end":627.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.4897187500001,"end":628.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.3415937500001,"end":631.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.79284375,"end":641.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":641.4497187500001,"end":643.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.9809687500001,"end":645.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.6684687500001,"end":647.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":648.11534375,"end":649.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.7690937500001,"end":652.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.19471875,"end":655.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.16471875,"end":658.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.21909375,"end":660.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.95284375,"end":670.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.21284375,"end":672.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.58409375,"end":673.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.03534375,"end":674.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.0522187500001,"end":676.26284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.352,"end":19.191,"text":"主席、各位律師委員主席我先請金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":24.549,"end":45.508,"text":"委員好主委好主委那個ETF熱賣那許多投資人就不只解定存拿房子貸款那一窩蜂的都搶著要買那有很多人買不到那除了菜市場在那邊賣菜賣肉的"},{"start":50.812,"end":70.969,"text":"連程序都可能不清楚在這種市場的趨勒之下投資人根本不了解基金的特性那這樣子進場那就是投信公司的廣告跟這些網紅的宣傳那流動資金大量湧入ETF市場"},{"start":72.23,"end":88.456,"text":"投資人也是看到這些社群平台還有網紅的說明去進行買賣那針對投信跟網紅的部分那修正相關規定還有強化控管制度的部分是不是請主委說明一下"},{"start":89.522,"end":106.717,"text":"有,謝謝委員您的垂詢我想這部分的確是我們在最近看到投信在行銷上的一個我們覺得需要去立刻去調整的地方因為這些網紅他可能所在現場上沒有讓"},{"start":107.558,"end":127.45,"text":"投資人理解到其實他後面是有跟投信做連結的那所以對他的話術就可能覺得他是很公正的那其實他是後面是有投信跟他有一些商業上的契約那這部分怎麼規範我剛才有報告在報告也有講我們儘快6月底之前要跟工會把這個自律規範給他訂出來"},{"start":128.971,"end":129.251,"text":"臺灣財政委員會主席"},{"start":148.738,"end":176.725,"text":"民眾可以瞭解到說真正的實情狀況不要到時候因為這些網紅他有一定的影響力是那不要說公信力啦說影響力應該比較貼切那所以造成說到時候因為這個運貨風的購買然後搶快那到時候因為這樣up down或者說遭受到這些虧損"},{"start":177.805,"end":192.634,"text":"然後呢後來會衍生出更多的問題也是金管會主管機關到後來要面對的那所以我們6月底之前要把這個規範出來但是這段時間我們現在才3月是 我跟您報告"},{"start":196.018,"end":209.014,"text":"其實我們在去年11月就有請交易所櫃買中心我們會請工會用新型態的媒體包括這些年輕人喜歡用的管道去宣導讓他瞭解到投資這些商品該注意到的金融的知識"},{"start":210.696,"end":228.747,"text":"這個商品安不安全可不可靠這個要靠主管機關來做更多的釐清那因為現在我們知道說現在熱錢都在房地產那因為現在ETF這麼趨熱的情況之下現在在ETF總市值有多少"},{"start":230.55,"end":255.891,"text":"4兆多包括債券比較多債券型比較多股票大概1兆5左右4兆多那表示說有這麼多的熱錢都跑到ETF這邊過來是不是也分擔了一些跑到房地產區的這些錢這個我不是專家我想大家民眾對於類似這種商品有一定程度的興趣吧"},{"start":257.731,"end":275.048,"text":"臺灣2月份的消費者CPI指數年增率3.08那創2022年7月以來的新高最高那是不是因為民眾因為要抗通膨所以把錢投到房市那又看到ETF這麼熱大家搶著買所以又把錢"},{"start":278.592,"end":278.972,"text":"請主席說一下"},{"start":297.621,"end":323.798,"text":"我想商品是中性的那當然臺股的ETF因為可能最近這幾年臺股的這個本身比較成長所以大家看到過去的績效覺得可以繼續去投資當然ETF下面有不同的成分股那這些股票漲漲跌跌總是有它自己本身的一些規矩規則我想還是要特別"},{"start":324.699,"end":340.753,"text":"投資人還是要注意任何的ETF還要看它成分股本身未來的整個的漲跌那過去的績效不必然去保障未來的績效是那平均地權條例新法在去年的7月全面上路"},{"start":341.994,"end":349.357,"text":"最重要的就是禁止預售屋跟新建成屋的換約轉售那違則可處罰50到300萬當民眾購買預售屋禁止轉約後那一旦返回就只能夠選擇退戶"},{"start":361.294,"end":381.736,"text":"那退戶要收取高達15%的違約金民眾當然不願意被罰這一筆錢當然發現自己購買的預售價格又上漲那是不是就會轉接到這個檯面下的一個黑絲的交易"},{"start":382.697,"end":395.109,"text":"那如果是不是這種情況讓有心人就會在地下操作這樣子的情況發生要如何能夠金融會這邊要怎麼樣去抑制炒房"},{"start":396.914,"end":424.306,"text":"報告委員其實您說的這部分是屬於不動產交易的實務今晚會在行政院的穩健方式的政策下基本上就是強化金融機構對於不動產受信用的品質跟風險管理那另外其他部分有一部分是中央銀行在選擇信信用管制上的一個政策"},{"start":426.727,"end":451.882,"text":"當然房價上漲的原因包含很多材料變貴、工錢、薪資增加、土地成本增加的部分對於房地產上漲的預期心理不管推出怎樣的打房政策投資者還是願意購買房子就希望說抗通膨讓錢能夠保值就算打房的策略作效也沒有辦法讓房價"},{"start":454.064,"end":472.203,"text":"有效的回跌那房價趨勢還是往上的所以整體來講打房是不成功的是不是我可不可以請教主委這個說法我們經常會是其中之一我們不太適合去評估但是基本上我們對於尤其是這個銀行的壽性來講"},{"start":475.154,"end":495.568,"text":"對於這個借物跟不動產的預放比率都是0.1516左右大概都很低表示這產品質其實是可以的是可以可以被接受的好 謝謝主委那請主席請嚴副總裁請副總裁委員好"},{"start":502.606,"end":523.443,"text":"副總裁那主委請回座本席上個禮拜有問過主席長認為如果將主席長說如果把電費調漲考量進去所以今年4月電費調漲我覺得通膨率依然會高於通膨的警戒線"},{"start":524.964,"end":542.726,"text":"那電費調漲是勢必也是利率調漲與否的一個焦點我想國人都非常關心這個議題那FED在2月CPI報告中升幅略高於預估"},{"start":543.772,"end":559.317,"text":"那對降息將更加審慎在各國包含FED ECB都在考量降息的過程當中的情況之下我國是否有可能會因為電費的調漲反向升息可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":561.872,"end":590.061,"text":"那個報告委員因為那個我們在每次開理事會之前我們都會做整體的物價房地產市場的評估那因為我們禮拜四就要開會了所以我今天不方便直接回答您這邊的問題而且每一個國家的貨幣政策或利率政策其實是根據他當時候的那個資料去決定的所以我們要等到禮拜四以後我們才會正式公佈"},{"start":591.462,"end":593.787,"text":"你賣市才會有答案我問的是說這個"},{"start":601.414,"end":622.306,"text":"我們升息是不是會受到因為電價的調漲所以影響到我們升息你可不可以回答我是不是因為我們看到就是說我們原來去年底的預估的時候是1.89那現在因為預期電價調整也造成一些預期心理的形成所以我們可能會善調我們對物價的預測"},{"start":627.228,"end":655.103,"text":"那其實貨幣政策除了考慮物價之外也還有考慮其他的很多因素升息是不是一種抑制熱錢投入房市的一個方法我不知道那是不是可能我們如果用升息這個手段也是一樣會付出經濟成長減緩的一個代價不只這樣啦因為所有的貸款這個族群都會受到影響"},{"start":656.244,"end":670.179,"text":"所以升息是不是唯一的方法那是不是一定要升息報告委員因為我們在討論貨幣政策的利率調整所以我們其實考慮的因素是多方的絕對不是一個因素謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝顏寬衡委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"149986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a22d8ae2224556f14ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a623ca7a029bb132625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:12:18 - 11:21:20","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":542,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:21:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:12:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時12分）謝謝。我們請內政部林部長，接下來請警政署，警政署的議題之後再請國土管理署。"],["主席：好，我們請部長以及兩位署長上臺。謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，我們有聯絡方式嘛！你有沒有我的email？"],["林部長右昌：我沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：你寄信給我。"],["林部長右昌：我們用LINE比較快。"],["李委員柏毅：你看一下。"],["林部長右昌：你說這個是詐騙的。"],["李委員柏毅：這是禮拜六我收到的，來，你的家庭地址我已經調查清楚，請你在Facebook公開發帖會退出民進黨，7天內退黨，否則你全家會成為刀下亡魂。來，黃署長，類似這些恐嚇郵件，請問本會的立委有多少位收到了，還有多少位沒有收到？"],["黃署長明昭：目前警政署受理委員的部分……"],["李委員柏毅：這一件還沒受理，當天我就覺得太多了。"],["黃署長明昭：目前已經有15件、16人。"],["李委員柏毅：昨天黃捷委員在花蓮演講，那個算不算也是在恐嚇委員？"],["黃署長明昭：是，也有受理。"],["李委員柏毅：也有受理了。"],["黃署長明昭：黃捷委員這一件也受理，這是個人……"],["李委員柏毅：署長，我請問你，我們當然都知道這些是恐嚇，也都覺得這可能都來自境外，但是我們希望警政署可以在第一時間很清楚的說明，而不是說我們要調查他的來源等等。我們也有家人，我不報案不代表我的家人不會害怕，所以你要趕快讓所有的社會大眾可以很快、很清楚地瞭解這些相關的內容到底是怎樣。署長，可不可以趕快明確說明？不是在這裡說明，未來遇到類似案件的話，我們要怎麼樣處理？我在選舉期間整整1個月都被恐嚇，這個恐嚇信件還跟我對話。我們要怎麼樣趕快讓社會大眾知道這個類型的案件、知道警政署怎麼樣因應，讓社會大眾知道來自境外的目的是什麼？就是認知作戰。來，署長。"],["黃署長明昭：這個我們可以這樣做，如果偵查出是在境外或者是用哪一個國家當跳板……"],["李委員柏毅：偵查出來要多久會知道在境外？"],["黃署長明昭：一般大概幾個小時就可以瞭解到底他的IP是在哪個國家落點。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝署長，您請回。","內政部其實掌管非常多，我想要先就現在最夯的住宅問題請教。明年台積電就要進駐我的選區──左營、楠梓，台積電進駐之後，1,500個以上的工程師加上周邊的就業、產業，會有非常大量的人口移入。署長，這個月高雄鄰近左營兩區的預售屋超過1,000戶，你知道嗎？都是3天clean，鄰近左營的兩個預售屋都是3天完銷，住宅的需求非常高，所以高雄市跟住都中心合作，在左營跟楠梓再加上仁武興建4個社宅，但是社宅興建完成跟台積電設廠其實搭不起來，也就是說，短期內會有大量的住宅需求，所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲，不只飆漲，預售屋也在很快的速度內去化，可見我們可能需要很大量的租金補貼等等。","我們從內政部的報告裡面看到，去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數，全臺灣一共43萬戶，這43萬戶裡面有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的，這原因包含什麼？原因包含害怕申請之後，房東可能就要請我離開不要租了，這些人要住哪裡？我當然知道內政部也有對房東祭出罰則，如果你因為這樣拒絕房客申請，可以罰3萬到30萬等，但是房東被罰錢不怕，房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去。如果在這一段時間真的被趕出去，我希望國土署、內政部好好研議這個問題，讓所有的租客可以安心申請租金補貼。相關的安置內容你可不可以現在先回應？部長要不要回應？"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員的指教，我們現在已經跟法扶中心建立法律諮詢服務的一個平臺，預計今年上半年基本上把它建置完畢，下半年的時候可以上路，可以提供房東還是房客，如果他有遇到糾紛的時候，可以採取法律保障的作為。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有糾紛，這也不是法律保障，部長，這個很清楚，如果房客跟縣市政府申請租金補貼之後，在3個月內被房東掃地出門，政府有什麼措施安置被掃地出門的人？他是被你鼓勵來申請租金補貼，卻因為這個租金補貼被房東趕出去了，政府要不要做什麼樣的準備，因應這一些問題？當然重罰我是贊成的，但是我們要怎麼樣因應這一些問題？請內政部儘速研議，安所有租屋客的心。","最後，去年12月內政部通過「推動社會住宅成果與提升社宅用地供給精進措施」，希望在2025到2032進行，你還是設到明年開始，縣市政府市地重劃的抵費地可以提撥5%作為社宅用地，目前這些抵費地的標售都超過它的成本，我建議內政部，臺中市政府如果再拿出來標售的時候，內政部去標來作為社會住宅，人民會站在內政部這一邊，還是站在市場這一邊？希望國土署也就這一方面表態。","我來不及讓你回答，因為還有一個地方的議題，希望國土署趕快處理，就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度，它緊接著台積電之後，目前它從這個計畫道路的開闢跟廠商選址是同一個時段，也就是其實現在廠商選址之外，廠商可以進去開始建廠，為什麼都還沒有進去？因為進不去。所以我希望國土署跟高雄市政府可以趕快地配合，讓廠商可以進去選址之外，它有一段聯外道路沒有辦法連接到省道，我在擔任市議員的期間一直不斷要求市政府、地政局趕快來開闢這條道路，但是也要跟國土署做配合。希望國土署就剛剛這兩件事情一併做回應，包括橋頭科學園區聯外道路，還有要不要去標縣市政府抵費地的問題，謝謝。來，署長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。首先，在我們明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府如果土地可以專案讓售給中央的話，我們直接來協商……"],["李委員柏毅：沒有，我的意思是你直接去跟它標啦！"],["吳署長欣修：對，我知道，因為我們大概現在還不會，但是專案讓售的話是……"],["李委員柏毅：我們當然是希望拿成本來標，對不對？這樣才對真正的市民是有利的……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯、沒錯。"],["李委員柏毅：不是已經重劃之後的價錢。"],["吳署長欣修：是。第二個是聯外道路的部分……"],["李委員柏毅：你要設法、設法，就是針對抵費地這個。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為高公局……"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市已經做了超過2萬戶的社宅，臺中不是做不到1萬戶？來，給我書面回應。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["李委員柏毅：我看主席站起來了，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝柏毅委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","現在處理臨時提案總共有7案，請宣讀。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委、主席。"],["主席：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：請教一下，剛剛主席有宣告臨時提案是10點以前截止嘛？"],["主席：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在變成7案，本來不是只有4案嗎？"],["主席：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是不是也另外3案……我看內容裡面可能大家再討論一下，是不是今天先處理前面這4案？"],["主席：是這樣子，剛剛提案來的時候，因為只有3分鐘，我也接受了，我有交代議事人員，未來各黨團如果在3分鐘內提出來的，我們也都接受，好不好？"],["莊委員瑞雄：好啦，尊重他。"],["主席：不好意思，謝謝你。我們以後都比照辦理，感謝。","現在來宣讀。","一、","有鑑於內政部於數位身分證推動過程中，未針對社會諸多疑慮，如資安問題、數據隱私、效益不明顯等等進行政策溝通，且怠惰訂定專法，先招標、再開會，使專家淪為橡皮圖章。前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討與未來政策方向報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓","二、","有鑑於執法機關應共同合作、打擊不法，查海巡署於112年10月12日向內政部警政署申請介接車輛辨識系統，內政部警政署於同年12月29日以涉及個資法，請海巡署逕洽個資法主管機關釋疑後，再行評估審酌介接。海巡署業於113年1月11日函發個人資料保護委員會籌備處函釋，致至今5個月仍未完成系統介接。爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓","三、","鑑於臺東縣面積3,515.25平方公里，占台灣面積9.78%，是台灣第三大縣，就臺東縣113年度附屬單位預算，臺東縣消防人員預算員額僅411人，平均一個人負責守護8.5平方公里，參照臺東縣消防局2023年救災防護暨其他案件類統計，火災、救護及載送等相關案件，總計近26,719件，再加上台東幅員遼闊以及城鄉社區距離較長，長期人力不足下導致台東消防救護工作壓力極大，因此人員異動頻繁，據臺東縣政府推估，臺東縣需要之消防人力約738人，仍有372人的巨大缺口，亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力，爰提案要求內政部於一個月內就協助增加臺東縣消防人力與設備資源擬具相關規劃案，以維護臺東縣消防環境與人民生命財產安全。","提案人：黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅","四、","鑑於數位身分證換發政策失當，契約暫停執行衍生增加費用，與內政部在規劃案及管理專法尚未完成前，急就章將案件發包給廠商印製、驗證、建置系統，最終因政府政策不透明，評估小組淪為橡皮圖章，學者、專家、民代抗議專業被踐踏，以及資安及隱私權被侵害風險未解，相關預算被本院凍結，最後計畫被行政院中止；得標廠商欲履約卻因計畫中止而被暫停執行，因而向政府求償，審計部對此亦函請行政院研謀妥善處理之策，儘速確立新式身分證換發政策，以降低因契約暫停執行所產生之不經濟支出；今年本院委員已多次對此問題提出質詢，內政部迄今無法說明清楚；政府因內政部數位身分證換發政策失當所購買機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金，衍生支出費用超過14億元，現已全部轉嫁由人民承擔；內政部推動數位身分證換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞，為查明數位身分證換發政策違失情況，茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責。","提案人：許宇甄　　牛煦庭　　黃建賓","五、","林口影視園區社宅規劃，中央不願重視地方強烈反彈，無視林口在社宅數占比已是全國相當高比例之地區，且對於周遭國民教育學校都已額滿，更違反目前土地使用分區管理不供住宅使用之法令規定，對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地蠻橫評估變更為社會住宅。","爰此提案要求內政部兩個月內與地方政府進行溝通，重視林口鄉親希望維持原本發展影視園區之目標與願景，積極重視地方需求與在地就業。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷","六、","關於淡水淡海新市鎮之交通規劃建設，因應淡江大橋2025年通車前交通評估及區域改善，在2023年內政委員會考察時提出配合淡海新市鎮二期之計畫到路，公路總局也確定規劃淡海新市鎮二期從沙崙路北沿40米寬之計畫道路，緩解未來淡江大橋通車後產生於淡水端之龐大車流。","考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位案規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。爰提案要求內政部一個月內完成經費補助審核作業並提出進度之書面報告回復提案委員。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷","七、","林口特定區計畫保護區面積占約一萬一千多公頃，目前保護區係依「都市計畫法桃園市施行細則」與「都市計畫法新北市施行細則」規定管理，相關保護區檢討調整經101內政部4月24日都市計畫委員會第778次會議中決議關於林口特定區保護區開發許可要點之通盤檢討及內容妥適性詳細予以檢視後再行辦理，惟進度延宕及地方鄉親積極關心，實有加速推進之必要。","爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案要求內政部兩個月內邀集新北、桃園市府督促提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷"],["主席：召委在這邊提醒一下在場的官員還有委員們，因為我在9點開會的時候就已經說了，我們的臨時提案是到10點。今天國民黨黨團有幾個案子是10點3分進入的，我跟議事人員交代，未來在10點3分前收到了各黨團的臨時提案，我們按照規則，大家都一樣，所以這次一併來處理。","第二件事情就是提案人員還有相關的各部會的協調有一些文字的部分，本席希望在召開臨時提案之前趕快處理，好不好？因為我已經有滿長時間給你們去跟各提案委員交流、溝通是不是可以做一些文字上的修正，可以修正的，我們就不要浪費太多的時間在這邊大家再一起討論；如果不能修正的部分，我們就來處理，好不好？","目前第三案、第六案、第七案有一些文字修正，提案委員也同意了，所以我們先處理這三案，請宣讀，謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第三案倒數第四行「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字修改為「黃建賓」。這些文字刪除。"],["主席：請議事人員再說一遍第三案，好不好？謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第三案，倒數第4行：「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字刪除。"],["主席：好，可以吧！來，現在我們再來處理第六案。","第三案照修正文字通過，對，我們提案委員是OK，沒問題嘛！建賓委員？好，謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第六案第3行道路的「道」修正文字，第2段文字修正為「考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位按規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。爰提案要求內政部一個月內提出進度之書面報告（含經費編列及開闢方式）回復提案委員。」"],["主席：好，以上修正文字，提案委員沒有問題吧？孟楷委員？好，沒問題，就按照修正文字通過。","第七案。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第七案第2段修正為「爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案內政部一個月內督促新北、桃園市府儘速提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明」。"],["主席：「請內政部一個月內……」也都唸完了，是不是？好，請問一下這個修正文字沒問題吧？"],["洪委員孟楷：可以。"],["主席：好，我們就按照修正文字通過。","我們現在回來處理第一案，剛剛已經宣讀了，都宣讀過了，第一案提案委員好像堅持這個部分嘛！然後我們的相關單位，這樣子的問題你們有什麼意見？你剛剛跟提案委員溝通了嗎？我剛剛從9點到現在已經有給你們3個小時溝通了，所以如果溝通還不接受的話，那麼我們就表決，好不好？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可不可以說明一下？請他說明一下，我們沒有聽到。"],["主席：好，請說明一下。拿麥克風好嗎？麻煩你站到上面來，謝謝。"],["陳代理司長子和：這部分因為要使一些文字更明確，我們是建議修正，原則上我們會提供相關的政策報告資料，裡面有些文字因為跟實際上有一點不符，所以我們是建議稍微做一下修正，比如說第3行「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。」這幾個文字，因為這個案子──有關換發新式身分證計畫曾經提過立法院，院裡面也通過預算，而且這個鉅額的賠償也還沒有確定，這是一個補償，不是賠償的費用，所以我們建議是不是把這幾個字刪掉？就是「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。」這幾個字把它刪除掉。"],["主席：好，請問欣瑩委員，前面這幾個字……"],["徐委員欣瑩：報告主席，前兩分鐘突然拿給我看，我是覺得這個不用改啦！就是照這樣，內政委員會其他委員也覺得……"],["主席：好的，是這樣子，召委必須要譴責一下你們，我們從9點已經拿到了這個臨時提案，一直到今天要處理，現在11點33分了，這當中你們都沒有跟提案委員來溝通嗎？所以如果沒有溝通的話，本席就覺得這個案要來表決，來，同意第一案的請舉手，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，等一下，我表達一下意見。"],["主席：不好意思，請表達，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是這樣子啦！我們內政委員會一向在處理這個，如果說督促我們行政部門去做一個政策方向的檢討，這個其實我們都會表達支持啦！但是像剛剛那個官員你是？"],["主席：戶政司的代理司長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：戶政司，照他所言「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案」如果這些不是事實的話，我們來表決這一個不是的前提，也好奇怪，我是支持徐委員要求內政部提出整個檢討跟未來政策方向的報告，中間這個字就變成是不是針對文字來稍微做一個修正？大家可以來支持你，要求整個內政部對這個全案未來該怎麼辦來做出一個報告，這個是非常合理啦！但是如果照戶政司所講的，也沒有說什麼朝野一致、沒有委員來支持該案，是不是我們通過這樣的文字也不妥……"],["主席：召委現在來做一個……我們不要浪費太多的時間，好不好？因為我剛剛一直在講戶政司，有3個小時請你們去跟委員溝通，縱使這些文字如剛剛我們莊瑞雄幹事長所提的，但是你有沒有覺得我們的行政官員實在是太不重視這個部分了，我已經提過在哪一個委員質詢結束之後要處理臨時提案，所以今天我覺得這個例子不可以再開，我就表決，好不好？請幹事長理解，因為每一個委員會裡面必須要有一些些它的交流溝通模式，我覺得今天已經有3個小時請行政單位去跟委員溝通，而且我必須要說明，在我還沒有處理臨時提案的時候，我一直請議事人員、交代議事人員今天的臨時提案請行政單位跟委員趕快溝通，一直到剛剛徐欣瑩委員說3分鐘前才跟他溝通，如果你今天做召委，你覺得今天這樣一個裁示，你是不是覺得被踐踏，好不好？請你們也理解一下召委，我今天要維持一下……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我可以理解召委、理解主席這樣一個心情啦！但是我是覺得涉及到整個文字的敘述，如果說前提事實不對，我們用表決把它通過，這個有點開玩笑……"],["主席：戶政司代理司長，為什麼你們不早一點去呢？"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然我一定會尊重主席裁決的權力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席、主席。"],["主席：請提案委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一個案確實朝野一致，就是這個案後來到現在都沒執行，就是暫緩，所以就我瞭解，莊委員那時候你也沒支持啊！所以我們這樣寫沒有錯，朝野一致對這個案大家都不支持，所以這個案才會停下來啊！到現在它停下來以後，照理應該要再積極的想辦法，但是沒有嘛！我們就是看到這個部分，所以我想這個文字上應該它的意思，對……"],["主席：好，召委現在已經請各位委員充分表達你們的意見了，召委必須要行使一下，我在這邊做召委，我非常尊重各位委員，我也尊重各行政單位，你們在3個小時當中都不去處理這樣子的文字溝通，我要給你們譴責，所以我們就表決。","第一案，我們來表決。同意徐欣瑩委員所提出的這個臨時提案請舉手，謝謝。幾位？好，我們是本委員會裡面的來表決，有1、2、3、4、5、6，6席同意。","不同意的請舉手，謝謝，1、2、3、4、5、6，6席。","同樣的，按照立法院職權行使法，如果大家有意見的話，就是主席可以來做最後的決定，所以主席也同意這個臨時提案，謝謝。現在的表決是7：6，所以第一案我們就讓它表決通過，謝謝。","臨時提案第二案，請我們行政單位來說明一下文字，請署長。"],["黃署長明昭：召委及各位委員大家好。臨時提案第二案，我們是建議倒數第1行「對全案提出檢討報告」能不能改為「進度報告」？因為這是去年的10月12號提出來的，而且這涉及到很多行政部門、還有縣市端的協調聯繫，我們是不是改為以進度做一個說明？以上。"],["主席：署長，你們是什麼時候跟徐欣瑩委員去溝通的？也是3分鐘之前嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，早一點。"],["黃署長明昭：之前就溝通……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我有跟他提說就是「檢討報告」，因為這個就是有問題，所以我要請你們檢討，就這樣，檢討報告裡面可以含進度報告，沒問題。"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["主席：剛剛徐欣瑩委員在做質詢的時候，本席也聽得非常的清楚啦！署長，的確我覺得你這個辨識系統介接的部分，你們應該儘速，而且好像有一段時間沒有處理了，只要你們能夠再跟其他的行政單位來協調合作，其實就可以儘早，好不好？"],["黃署長明昭：好，是……"],["主席：欣瑩委員，有關進度報告，你還是堅持「檢討報告」對吧？好，檢討報告，我們還是一樣，就是尊重提案委員。"],["黃署長明昭：是不是可以補充？"],["主席：好，你補充，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：因為這個有涉及到國發會的部分，因為國發會的部分……"],["主席：我瞭解。"],["黃署長明昭：對，那我們還要再去跟他們解釋，他們的見解以後……"],["主席：也已經很久了，署長，抱歉喔！徐欣瑩委員剛剛在質詢的時候，已經把這個時間拖很久了，你縱使要跟他們來討論，你應該儘早嘛！就等於好像這件事情一直擺在那邊都不處理，今天要不是欣瑩委員再做質詢的話，你們恐怕是繼續擺在那裡，其實這對這些介接還有國安的系統其實也是有問題的。"],["黃署長明昭：我再補充報告，因為國發會的函文請示是海巡署，不是我內政部啦！所以這個全部歸責在我這邊檢討，實在涉及到行政部門……"],["主席：沒關係啦！你就把這件事情給扛起來嘛！好不好？因為我剛剛講過，海巡署有非常多的警務人員，好不好？可以嗎？好，我們就……來，部長，你還有補充說明？"],["林部長右昌：我非常尊重委員的意見，不過因為涉及的是國發會，國發會是行政院的幕僚單位，那因為這個它是主管機關，我們必須尊重，所以這一點也必須特別報告，請委員瞭解。"],["主席：這樣子，我們就先文字修正，您先看，就是說是不是提案要求內政部跟其他的部會來提出進度的檢討報告，好不好？可以嗎？進度也放裡面，我們才比較能夠要求他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：提出進度的檢討報告。"],["主席：對啊！進度的檢討報告，可以嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：過程的檢討報告？"],["主席：我覺得過程就不要了啦！我們就請這個……反正您是今天提出嘛！我們也尊重您，就從今天開始我們來請他們提出檢討進度報告，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我尊重召委。"],["主席：可以吧？好，來，再唸一下。"],["郭專門委員明政：修正文字最後一段：「爰提案要求內政部與相關部會提出進度檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會」。"],["主席：這樣可以了吧？署長，好不好？好，謝謝您。","現在我們來處理第四案。請問一下有沒有部會要說明？好，也是代理司長。"],["陳代理司長子和：主席、各位委員。這個案子我們事先有跟許委員這邊稍微說明一下，也有跟辦公室的主任來溝通一下，那目前比較有共識的部分是「計畫中止」改成「計畫暫緩」，因為整個計畫還沒有中止，是暫緩。第二個部分是補償金，因為那個不是損害的補償，它不是賠償金，它是一個補償金，所以11行裡面那個賠償金就改成「補償金」。","跟委員比較沒有一致的部分，委員還是希望能夠成立一個調查小組來調查相關的資料，那我們是希望能夠在一個月內提供數位身分證換發政策及預算執行的書面報告給內政委員會，一個月內，那這一部分是比較沒有共識的，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝代理司長。我們看一下第7行的「卻因計畫中止……」，那個「中止」，許委員是同意改為「暫緩」兩個字；然後接著下來就是「機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金」的部分，他同意列為「補償金」，這兩個的文字是同意這樣修正。","再來就是：茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組。提案委員許委員是堅持要成立調閱小組，那你們是有意見的，對不對？好，請問一下許委員。"],["許委員宇甄：對，本席堅持要成立調閱專案小組，因為其實在這過程中，就像剛剛我在質詢的時候，我從決算報告中看出來，我們其實目前已經花了十四億多，但是內政部卻只用2.8億這邊來告訴大家是這樣子的一個賠償金，所以我認為這個部分應該是要有專案的調閱小組，才能夠把這個事情釐清。"],["主席：好，提案委員堅持用要成立調閱專案小組，我們是不是也來表決一下？請問一下民進黨的幹事長，請說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟主席還有跟在場所有委員來報告一下，這個案子其實第8屆的時候，我就跟主席在這個地方，當初從2013年針對國民身分證跟自然人憑證結合開始去做研究，到了第8屆、第9屆，然後行政院在110年它的會議裡面暫緩整個數位身分證的換發以後，我記得我們在2021年朝野協商的時候，是把整筆的預算來做封存。現在如果你說要調閱小組，基於立法院其實我們過去也都有這個先例，我阻擋不了，我對這種監督行政部門的事情沒有那麼堅持，本來立法院就發揮監督的功能。","可是還是會碰到一個問題，比如說你衍生文字裡面有沒有可能不是……我最擔心的就是我們整個委員會裡面做出的，我們表決完，我們表決那個前提事實是……那個事實怎麼是用表決的呢？就讓他們適度的說明那個數字到底是多少，你說清楚，許委員要的是調閱小組啦！我是覺得也合理啦！但重點就是你們的數字要說清楚啦！他如果寫錯了，你們也要跟他溝通好啊！正確的數字講一下，我相信許委員也不會堅持說2億，他跟你說那個14億，你就要提醒他，請他趕快修正一下才對，所以那個數字我反而會覺得這個在朝野政黨之間，本來跟行政部門大家去溝通把文字弄得更精確，這是好事啦！召委，我再次做這樣的提醒啦！"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","我們請許委員。"],["許委員宇甄：我想剛剛莊委員這邊所提到的數字，我是依據內政部的決算報告裡面所計算出來，要我這樣一筆一筆的把它唸出來嗎？"],["主席：我想可能不需要那麼多時間……"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以說總共就是……我得到的資料就是14億，超過14億，所以我想這個我是有所本的喔！所以我還是堅持，既然在這邊說不清楚，我覺得我們就是成立調閱專案小組來讓他們講清楚。"],["王委員美惠：主席……"],["主席：好，謝謝美惠委員。","我們請行政部門再來稍微說明一下，對於14億的部分。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，許委員提到這14億裡面，其實是沒有那麼多啦！裡面有重複計算的部分，我跟委員一一報告。第一個，這個費用裡面第一個是我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分，我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分是以它印製每一張多少錢來支付，比如說一張可能是180、200塊，這個是按照……"],["主席：請你快速一點好不好？因為剛剛許委員是有所本，是從這個決算書裡面看到的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說是決算書有問題喔？"],["陳代理司長子和：第二個是中印跟它的委託廠商東元之間的賠償費用，是2.8億，這個是買材料的費用。第三個部分是中印為了要執行印製我的數位身分證，它自己去整修廠房跟購買設備，這一部分是大概3.79億，所以加起來應該是沒有像委員講的這麼多……"],["主席：好，謝謝。","他剛剛的說明其實也蠻清楚的，但是我們立法院的決算委員會裡面，的確提出的報告是如此，好不好？所以其實你們在調閱小組裡面談更清楚，好不好？好，謝謝。","第四案，請問一下問民進黨委員同意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我只有一句話跟委員報告一下……"],["主席：好，我們尊重部長，來，請您快一點，快速的來說明一下。"],["林部長右昌：我們代理司長講的太複雜了，簡單來講，委員剛剛提到的是決算嘛！那個數字是沒有錯，不過中央印製廠的決算數是我們內政部撥給它的，所以那一部分是重複計算，大概是這樣子。"],["主席：好，你在調閱專案小組裡面也可以說明清楚，好嗎？部長，謝謝您，我也非常尊重行政官員還有部長的補充說明。","請問一下民進黨的委員、內政委員會委員，我們是不是可以來處理這案了？"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委。"],["主席：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是不是這樣建議，大家一起來同意文字做修正啦！你老經驗的人怎麼這樣，應該是……"],["主席：那你覺得文字應該怎麼修正？"],["莊委員瑞雄：看內政部這邊可不可以再提一下？"],["主席：請問一下許宇甄……其實我們看到有一些文字修正的部分，它都已經有修正了啦！請問一下莊委員，你對哪一個文字還有意見？你有沒有什麼意見？提出一下你很好的見解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委問了，我不敢不回答啦！"],["主席：我尊重大家。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是我們這整個臨時提案裡面，其實也不用放進去太多……"],["主席：你是說數字嗎？費用的數字嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：數字你解釋完了我可以接受，因為我們立法院有這樣一個報告。"],["主席：好的，還有哪裡你覺得文字……"],["莊委員瑞雄：比如說「換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這個聽起來就怪怪的啦！我們要去調查它，既然要調查就先不用去審判它了，這有未審先判的那種感覺啦！"],["主席：好，我們請提案委員回應，是不是接受莊委員的建議？"],["許委員宇甄：我不接受。因為針對這個部分，我們確實感受到的就是有刻意隱瞞之嫌啦！所以為什麼希望能夠成立調閱專案小組，就是希望能夠把這部分的疑慮釐清啦！"],["主席：這樣子好不好？我們把「違失」拿掉好不好？「換發政策違失情節明確」我也同意剛剛……因為我們還沒有調閱小組，我們的確不能夠未審先判，我們成立了調閱小組之後，我們才可以瞭解一下他們是不是有違失的情節，這一點我倒是同意莊瑞雄幹事長的提議，好不好？可以嗎？請問許委員，我們在這邊文字修正？"],["許委員宇甄：可以，OK。"],["主席：我們請議事人員來幫我們想一下。"],["郭專門委員明政：如果有成立的話，建議內政委員會，數位身分證它調閱小組的名稱就「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」調閱小組……"],["主席：好，「違失」也拿掉，好不好？就是「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」乙案，莊委員這樣可以嗎？我們把違失那兩個字都拿掉。好，文字修正念一下，謝謝。"],["郭專門委員明政：臨時提案第四案修正文字：「提案建請立法內政委員會，針對『數位身分證換發政策及預算執行』乙案成立調閱小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責」。"],["主席：還有前面「身分證換發政策違失情節明確」，這個「違失情節明確」把它拿掉，好不好？"],["郭專門委員明政：「內政部推動數位身分證換發政策，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這樣。"],["主席：對，可以嗎？好，如果這樣子的文字修正大家同意的話，我們第四案也讓它通過，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：同意，謝謝。"],["主席：第五案提案委員是洪孟楷委員。"],["張委員宏陸：召委，我想提醒一下，我們內政委員會，臨時提案第四案「賠償」改成「補償」了……"],["主席：對，賠償金變成補償金"],["張委員宏陸：但我們第一案還是「賠償費用」，這樣我們內委會兩個案子的用詞不一樣喔！是不是爭取徐欣瑩委員的同意，我們第一案也是把賠償變成補償，這樣我們內政委員會出去的才有一致，不然會怪怪的。"],["主席：好，我們剛剛臨時提案是已經通過了……"],["張委員宏陸：但是現在兩個不一樣……"],["主席：我也尊重委員，但是我今天要再提的就是我們的行政單位，並沒有在3個小時之內去找徐委員溝通，所以剛剛召委才會給他們一些懲罰，希望他們以後尊重一下召委在這邊所說的每一句話，提醒他們。所以剛剛的建議，因為尊重我們委員，請問一下徐委員補償金跟賠償金的部分？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦……"],["主席：OK，謝謝欣瑩委員。我再一次提醒行政官員，麻煩你們對召委已經說明的這些，今天我們委員會裡面的所有行政流程，請你們注意聽，也請你們尊重召委，好不好？以後在我處理臨時提案之前，趕快找提案委員來溝通一下，可以嗎？謝謝。","第五案。第五案有沒有文字修正？請說明，署長。"],["吳署長欣修：因為林口影視園區這一個本來就是國有土地，部分土地廠商棄標以後，國產署也通知我們可以一起來評估，所以我們納入評估本來就是非常合理的。第二個，其實當時地方政府有一些意見，我想我們在過程當中，因為現在評估還沒有一個結果，等我們評估有一個結果都會跟地方政府去溝通。所以有關其中的一些文字，是不是可以……因為我們有跟委員溝通，他有部分文字還是不同意修正。但是我覺得站在對於國有土地的一個管理跟規劃以及長期角度來看，因為新北又是社宅缺口最大的地方，是不是讓我們可以評估以後來跟地方溝通，我想這一點我們是會尊重，但是有些文字還是希望修正。"],["主席：好，我們也請提案人牛煦庭委員做一些回應。"],["牛委員煦庭：孟楷委員有特別跟我講啦，因為他會用這樣的文字……"],["主席：你們是共同提案人吧？因為我們處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，內委會提案嘛！"],["主席：縱使洪孟楷委員不在，牛煦庭委員在……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我來說明啊！我是提案人啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個原因是這樣，我想部裡面應該也清楚，林口鄉親有抗爭、有連署，所以作為民意代表如果沒有辦法用……你也沒辦法讓孟楷委員跟林口的鄉親交代啦！所以這一部分希望部裡面是不是多多擔待。這個臨時提案的總體意旨關鍵，其實還是希望中央跟地方進行完善的溝通啦，所以我覺得文字修正與否不影響這個提案的意旨，是不是就趕快？我就特別再多講一句，如果真的溝通的結果是林口不要，對不對？拿來龜山，我來幫你溝通，好不好？你的社宅進度也可以照常推動，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個是國有地，剛好它位置在林口啦，因為龜山的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：事實上就是那邊的鄉親有抗爭嘛！所以他提案，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解，所以我的意思是，因為我們本來程序上就在做評估，其實不需要用到「蠻橫」這種字眼，因為國有土地本來交給我們評估也是很正常……"],["牛委員煦庭：他剛剛有講是很堅持啦！他堅持，我們也尊重他啦，好不好？因為畢竟那是他林口的事情嘛，好不好？所以希望部裡面要擔待一下。"],["主席：好，我們請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：跟主席還有各位委員報告，你看總統大選選完才多久而已，但新北市確實在整個社宅的部分缺口是最大的，各個政黨在選總統的時候都是信誓旦旦，說要多蓋多少、多蓋多少！我是比較難想像，雖然我們不屬於林口這樣的一個選區，可是整個社會住宅的建造，希望再繼續增加，這是各黨大家都一致希望的，而且在內政委員會，我們一直要求內政部、要求國土署，每次都修理他們，說他們進度都太慢，要快點找！像我都一直要拜託你們再去找，怎麼會說剛好是廠商棄標的國有土地，然後你去把它做評估變更為社會住宅，會變成是蠻橫的評估？評估也還沒出來，搞不好評估出來，新北市政府是很開心的也不一定啊！中央出錢，還蓋在你地方的土地這裡，除非你告訴我說林口這個地方真的完全都不需要社會住宅。所以是不是就像剛剛牛委員所提到的，你的意旨是希望再去溝通，既然是這樣子的話，這種比較情緒性的文字就不要啦！說「蠻橫」評估，我也不知道，不然就改「溫柔」評估，有這樣的嗎？對不對？這我就不知道為何要用這個字眼，評估就評估，最主要是你評估出來以後跟地方如何去進行溝通，我也不認為你評估出來說：「好」，但新北市政府跟你說：「不行」，新北林口以後都不需要社會住宅。要嚇死人，應該也不至於吧？"],["主席：好，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的提醒，召委這樣子提這個意見，牛煦庭委員聽一下，不好意思。蠻橫的確這個字可能比較重了一點，我們用「逕行」兩個字好不好？對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地「逕行」評估變更為社會住宅，其實逕行這兩個字也是蠻重的一個字，但在文字上面可能文雅一點，我們是不是用這樣子？署長，你同意嗎？好，OK，大家同意的話，我們就將蠻橫這兩個字拿掉，當然最重要的是兩個月之內要跟地方政府進行溝通，好嗎？第五案，我們文字用「逕行」大家同意嗎？好，我們臨時提案第五案通過。","第六案、第七案都已經同意了嘛？好的，非常謝謝大家，我們的臨時提案現在都處理完畢了，我們先休息3分鐘，然後待會再進行我們的質詢，謝謝大家，謝謝。","休息（11時59分）","繼續開會（12時4分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。中午不休息，繼續我們的質詢。","現在請莊瑞雄委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.05971875,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.87346875,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.028468750000002,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.93534375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.550968750000003,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.56784375,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.344093750000003,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.70659375,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.81596875,"end":27.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.094093750000003,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.58721875,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.61659375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.98784375,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.07534375,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.05409375,"end":46.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.96034375,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.45784375,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.29284375,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.195343750000006,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.82346875,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.47284375,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.96159375,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.97846875,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.29409375,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.10784375,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.52534375,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.46159375,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.49096875000001,"end":80.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.84534375,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.83659375,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.54096875,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.70471875000001,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.94471875,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.59784375000001,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.33596875,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.60534375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.01346875,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":144.09284375000001,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.10971875,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.96096875,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.53034375000001,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.50034375,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":158.95971875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":161.20409375,"end":173.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.23159375,"end":177.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.62346875,"end":189.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.27971875,"end":191.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.49034375000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":196.57409375,"end":197.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":198.32909375,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":199.84784375,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":202.91909375,"end":204.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.55596875,"end":223.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.89471875,"end":226.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.96596875,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.62784375,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.89346875,"end":233.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.73284375000003,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":237.51284375,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":239.68971875000003,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":240.29721875,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.05659375000002,"end":242.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.13221875000002,"end":244.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":246.37221875,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.92846875,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":263.61846875000003,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.33534375,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.94221875,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.70159375000003,"end":272.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.95034375,"end":274.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":274.84034375000005,"end":275.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.03846875,"end":279.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":279.44721875,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":281.16846875000005,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.34971875,"end":287.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.19284375,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":295.51221875000005,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":299.15721875,"end":306.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.49784375,"end":320.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.74846875000003,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":322.76534375,"end":322.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.79909375,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":322.86659375,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.59221875000003,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.30971875,"end":351.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":351.13221875000005,"end":356.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":357.19034375,"end":360.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.39659375,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":369.72846875000005,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.46909375,"end":392.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":392.77971875000003,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":393.87659375000004,"end":422.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":422.85096875000005,"end":423.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":424.26846875,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.66034375000004,"end":428.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.65159375,"end":430.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":431.17034375000003,"end":432.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":432.84096875,"end":434.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.91659375,"end":454.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.40284375000005,"end":466.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.13096875,"end":467.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.82284375,"end":468.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":468.93659375000004,"end":474.60659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":474.91034375000004,"end":475.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":475.90596875000006,"end":502.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":502.24784375,"end":502.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":502.33221875000004,"end":503.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":504.01971875000004,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":514.95471875,"end":517.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":516.79409375,"end":518.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":518.86971875,"end":527.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":518.9709687500001,"end":520.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":523.67909375,"end":524.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":525.8390937500001,"end":527.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":527.18909375,"end":527.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":527.22284375,"end":532.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":529.6865937499999,"end":530.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":530.83409375,"end":540.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.84971875,"end":539.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.0772187499999,"end":543.7265937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.47,"end":24.907,"text":"請李柏毅委員謝謝我們請內政部林部長還要請接下來請警政署那警政署的議題之後再請國土管理署我們請部長以及兩位署長一起上台謝謝部長我們有聯絡方式嗎你有沒有我的email"},{"start":25.814,"end":25.974,"text":"李柏毅"},{"start":47.091,"end":69.522,"text":"相關類似的這些恐嚇的郵件請問本會的立委有多少位收到了還有多少位沒有收到目前警政署所受理的委員的部門這一件還沒受理啦當天我就覺得太多了目前已經有15件16人昨天黃婕委員在花蓮演講那算不算"},{"start":71.339,"end":99.407,"text":"昨天黃婕委員在花蓮演講那算不算也是在恐嚇委員是也有受理黃婕委員這件有受理那署長我請問你我們當然都知道這些是恐嚇我們當然也都覺得這可能都來自境外但是我們希望警政署可以在第一時間有一個很清楚的說明而不是說這個我們要調查他的來源等等的我們也有家人"},{"start":100.387,"end":117.892,"text":"我不報案不代表我的家人不會害怕所以說你要趕快讓我們所有社會大眾可以很快很清楚的了解這些相關的內容到底是怎樣來 署長可不可以趕快做一個明確的說明不是在這裡說明"},{"start":118.872,"end":118.892,"text":"來 署長"},{"start":144.053,"end":147.614,"text":"內政部其實掌管非常的多那我想要先就這個現在最夯的住宅的問題那我的選區左營男子迎接到"},{"start":174.281,"end":201.655,"text":"明年這個台積電就要進駐那台積電進駐之後一千五百個以上的工程師加上周邊的這些就業產業會有非常大量的人口移入目前在這個月 署長 這個月喔高雄臨近左營兩區的預售屋超過一千戶 你知道嗎都是三天clean 三天完銷"},{"start":203.187,"end":230.94,"text":"臨近左營的兩個這個預售都是3天完銷住宅需求非常的大那所以呢共是跟我們租屋中心合作在左營跟楠梓就有4個加上仁武就有4個這個社宅的興建但是社宅的興建跟台積電的這個建廠社宅興建完成跟台積電的這個設廠其實搭不起來"},{"start":232.14,"end":244.95,"text":"也就是說短期內會有大量的住宅的需求所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲不只飆漲預售屋也是很快的速度內就去化我們會需要很大量的租金補貼等等的"},{"start":251.004,"end":262.001,"text":"目前我們從內政部的報告裡面去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數全台灣一共43萬戶那這43萬戶裡面"},{"start":266.388,"end":294.9,"text":"我想有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的這原因包含什麼原因包含害怕如果申請之後房東就可能就我就要請你離開不要租了那這些人要住哪裡我當然知道我們內政部也有對這個房東有祭出罰則如果你因為這樣拒絕房客來申請可能可以罰3到30萬等但是房客最害怕的"},{"start":295.6,"end":318.401,"text":"房東被罰錢他不怕房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去如果在這段時間真的被趕出去我希望我們國土署這邊我們內政部這邊好好來演繹這個問題讓所有的租客可以安心的來申請租屋補貼來 署長相關的安置的內容你可不可以先來回應"},{"start":323.565,"end":350.698,"text":"非常謝謝委員的指教那我們現在在我們已經在跟法服中心建立一個法律諮詢服務的一個平台我們預計在今年的上半年基本上把它建置完畢那下半年的時候可以上路這個就是可以提供這個不管是房東還是房客如果他有遇到這樣糾紛的時候可以採取一個法律保障的一個作為"},{"start":351.178,"end":369.072,"text":"沒有沒有糾紛啦這也不是法律保障部長這個很清楚就是說如果房客去來跟縣市政府申請租屋補貼租屋補貼之後他如果3個月內被房東掃地出門政府要有什麼措施來安置這個被掃地出門的他是被你鼓勵嘛"},{"start":369.953,"end":369.993,"text":"最後﹖"},{"start":393.982,"end":421.61,"text":"去年12月內政部通過推動住宅成果提升社會住宅用地的經濟措施裏面希望在2025到2032你還是設到明年開始縣市政府的這個勢力重劃底費率可以提撥5%來作為設宅的用地目前所有這些底費率的表層都超過他的成本我建議內政部"},{"start":422.91,"end":429.859,"text":"台中市政府如果要再拿出來飆售的時候 內政部你去飆你去飆"},{"start":431.446,"end":454.513,"text":"來作為社會住宅人民會站在內政部這一邊還是站在市場這一邊我想希望這個國土署也就這一方面來做一個表態我來不及讓你回答因為還有一個地方的議題希望國土署這邊趕快來處理就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度他緊接的台積電之後"},{"start":455.333,"end":475.776,"text":"﹗"},{"start":476.016,"end":476.036,"text":"來 署長"},{"start":504.556,"end":526.393,"text":"首先是我們在明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府他如果土地是可以專案讓售給中央的話那我們直接來協商沒有啦我的意思是說你直接去跟他標啦因為我們大概現在還不能但是專案讓售的話我們當然是希望拿成本來標嘛對不對這樣才對真正的市民是有利的啊不是已經重劃之後的價錢啊對啊"},{"start":527.834,"end":528.135,"text":"李柏毅委員"}]}},{"id":"149985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a32ee92710f958d41ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c72e5195eda2e44e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:02:33 - 11:11:57","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":564,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:11:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:02:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時2分）召委好。我請部長。"],["主席：好，有請林部長。"],["丁委員學忠：部長好。"],["林部長右昌：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：部長，請問你知道殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一的內容嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這個法規我可能沒有背到那麼細。"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係，我提醒一下。這個條文是106年立法院通過的艱苦人條款，讓全國低收入戶的國人都可以免費使用各縣市的殯葬設施，這個條例已經實施了17年，請問部長有瞭解各縣市都有執行這個條例嗎？"],["林部長右昌：依法的話就是必須提供免費的使用。"],["丁委員學忠：有執行喔？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["丁委員學忠：你覺得這個制度是不是很好？"],["林部長右昌：我想既然立法就是大家的一個共識。"],["丁委員學忠：有收到各縣市政府反映這個政策……"],["林部長右昌：我想目前實施的狀況應該……沒有聽到特別的聲音，如果委員有聽到相關意見的話可以反映給我們。"],["丁委員學忠：都受到很多的好評，幫助低收入戶，大家都很認同。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：我們全國低收入戶總共差不多有14萬戶、二十七萬七千多人，當這個條例通過以後，有14萬戶、二十七萬多人都有受益，如果沒有問題，我覺得我們在跑基層的時候，時常遇到一些人民，雖然他的條件沒有辦法申請低收入戶，但是事實證明我們在基層也詢問過地方鄰里一些長輩、一些村里長，以瞭解一些人民的生活方式，瞭解有其中一部分因為這個條例，礙於無法申請低收入戶，只可以申請中低收入戶。","我們雲林縣大部分是比較農村的鄉鎮，他們的收益大部分都是務農而來的，一些長輩只被列入中低收入戶，我們雲林縣有一個夜市慈愛會，這個夜市慈愛會針對低收入戶以及中低收入戶的艱苦人，只要有需求，他們都會全力協助，他們也是集結一些攤販大家一起共同來做公益。我們有聽到他們在反映，一些中低收入戶的收益跟一些生活條件其實也是跟低收入戶一樣，只是礙於這個條例的部分而沒有辦法申請成為低收入戶。我再建議，是不是我們把中低收入戶也納入第二十一條之一的適用範圍，一樣免費使用各縣市的殯葬設施？部長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。這個在之前也有人提議過，不過沒有形成共識。最主要是這個會增加地方政府很大的財政負擔，地方政府財政狀況不一，所以意見也很多。第二個是對於中低收跟低收，我們衛福部有一個很清楚的界定，另外甚至還包括邊緣戶的部分，所以現在這一部分的一些需求，都是由NGO或者民間團體或者善心人士提供這些公益善心的照顧。委員的建議充滿善心，我們也知道委員的意見，不過這個是不是還要進一步凝聚共識，因為這個畢竟需要修法。"],["丁委員學忠：對。我是覺得，其他縣市的部分我不知道，但以我們雲林縣來看，剛剛我說的一些沒有辦法符合低收入戶資格的中低收入戶的人民也很多，而我們的中低收入戶在全國有10萬戶、28萬人。如果我們部長可以大家一起共同來協助這些中低收入戶，我覺得可以確實地幫助到這些比較貧窮、窮苦的一些人。"],["林部長右昌：我想政府都希望能夠照顧更多的人，剛剛委員的意見，我們會儘量整合各縣市政府大家不同的意見。"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分我們也會經過正式提案，但是先讓部長瞭解一下。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：如果內容有什麼問題可以大家協議一下，儘量來幫助我們的中低收入戶。因為我是基層的民意代表出身，真的很瞭解基層，真的艱苦人很多，真的！這個部分再麻煩一下部長。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["丁委員學忠：剛剛有說到消防的部分，我也是雲林縣義消的副大隊長，我覺得我們雲林縣消防弟兄大家都是很認真，除了警消，義消他們配合在災害發生的時候，他們都非常積極衝鋒陷陣，闖入災區拯救我們人民。我請教部長，因為警消部分已經列為公務人員，而義消的部分，各位義消人員都是士農工商群組大家組成的一個團體，大家共同為我們的消防，同心協力協助我們警消救災。我要請問，他們目前沒有薪資，也沒有什麼對他們人身有保障的機制嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員是說基金？"],["丁委員學忠：機制。"],["林部長右昌：機制。"],["丁委員學忠：對，對他們人身安全保障的機制。"],["林部長右昌：保險是有的，不過我跟委員報告，我們目前正在思考擬定義消整體災防能力的提升。現在義消其實做得滿不錯了，你也是副大隊長，我們未來希望義消能夠接受的訓練要比照警消。"],["丁委員學忠：他們都有訓練。"],["林部長右昌：現在的訓練其實還不是百分之百，未來如果百分之百比照警消，甚至可以給一個正式的認證，等於具備像國外消防士或消防人員的資格。"],["丁委員學忠：我很多次都到火場、現場看他們救災的狀況，其實他們的專業已經不遜於我們的警消人員，他們衝入火海的勇氣也不遜於一般人。對義消未來的福利、安全機制，還有我相信裝備上內政部都已經處理得很到位了。"],["林部長右昌：是的，現在我們正在整體規劃義消的整體量能，還有提升他專業能力的一個中程計畫，包括裝備的部分。謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：大部分的義消都有辦一些聯誼，他們聯誼都是由那個顧問自己籌措經費來協助，我也希望內政部編列一些預算給我們義消人員，當作是一個鼓勵，這樣好不好？"],["林部長右昌：我們整體考量。"],["丁委員學忠：好，麻煩部長。謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，也謝謝部長跟署長。","我們繼續請李柏毅委員質詢。因為吳琪銘召委跟莊瑞雄委員兩個交換，所以我們請柏毅委員質詢結束之後處理臨時提案。幹事長，你休息一下，我看你很喘。","好，謝謝，請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.371593750000001,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.04159375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":21.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.74909375,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.23409375,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.242218750000003,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.613468750000003,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.402218750000003,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.61659375,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.470968750000004,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.502843750000004,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.32409375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.98159375,"end":74.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.90846875000001,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.43534375,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.21659375000002,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.26096875000002,"end":200.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.07971875,"end":203.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.61096875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.46221875,"end":279.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.00659375000004,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.73409375,"end":309.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.17659375,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.57971875000004,"end":335.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.56096875000003,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.32721875000004,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.16596875000005,"end":381.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.82784375,"end":384.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.93284375,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.65409375,"end":410.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.10596875000005,"end":417.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.02471875000003,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.59221875000003,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.51034375,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.96596875,"end":443.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":444.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.45096875,"end":446.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.48034375000003,"end":446.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.44221875000005,"end":446.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.56034375,"end":449.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.86784375,"end":450.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.72846875000005,"end":450.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.76221875000005,"end":450.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.77909375,"end":450.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.81284375,"end":450.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.82971875000004,"end":451.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.14596875,"end":469.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.10346875000005,"end":454.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.59909375,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.93221875,"end":499.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.95221875000004,"end":478.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.40096875,"end":495.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.75909375000003,"end":530.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9990937499999,"end":540.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.3684687500001,"end":557.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.02409375,"end":558.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.3572187500001,"end":560.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.55534375,"end":560.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.23034375,"end":560.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.32284375,"end":564.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.975,"end":8.236,"text":"財務委員我請副長有請林部長副長好副長請問你知道這個憑倡管理條例第21條之一的內容嗎"},{"start":23.372,"end":25.553,"text":"這個條例已經實施了17年請問部長有了解各縣市都有執行這個條例嗎?"},{"start":54.495,"end":67.45,"text":"他依法的話他就是必須提供免費的使用有齁 有執行齁 是你覺得這個制度是不是很好我想這個既然立法就是大家的一個共識"},{"start":68.739,"end":90.425,"text":"有收到那個各縣市的政府反映反映這個政策我想目前實施的狀況應該沒有聽到特別聲音如果委員有聽到相關的意見的話可以反映給我們都受到很多的好評防護這個低收入戶這個大家都很認同是謝謝對啊"},{"start":91.325,"end":96.546,"text":"我們全國的這個低收入戶總共差不多有14萬戶27萬7千多人當我們這個條例通過以後有這些14萬戶27萬多人都有受益如果沒有問題我覺得我們在跑基層的時候時常遇到一些人影"},{"start":117.051,"end":119.094,"text":"雖然他的條件他沒有辦法申請低收入戶但是事實證明我們在基層也詢問過地方鄰里一些長輩一些村里長瞭解一些這個一些一些我們這個人民他們"},{"start":136.815,"end":164.136,"text":"一陣火方式吼啊瞭解也有其中一部分因爲這個條例愛無法申請這個低收入戶啊他只有可以申請這個中低收入戶因爲我們哎比較我們因身有大部分是比較農村的一個一個鄉鎮啊他們的收益吼大部分都是務農來的啊一些哎可能是比較長輩了吼啊"},{"start":166.638,"end":189.046,"text":"他們只會列入這個中低收入戶我們運營縣有一個月事慈善會這個月事慈善會針對我們這個低收入戶以及中低收入戶這個艱苦人他們只要有需求他們都會全力協助他們也是集合集結一些攤販大家一起"},{"start":192.907,"end":216.926,"text":"共同來做這個公益有聽到他們在反映其實一些中低收入戶他們的的這個收益跟跟一些生活條件其實也是跟那個低收入戶一樣只是礙於這個條例的部分沒有辦法申請到低收入戶我在建議是不是"},{"start":217.666,"end":240.187,"text":"我們也把中低收入戶也納入這個21條之一內容一樣免費來使用各縣市的這個殯葬設施這個副長你的看法謝謝委員這個在之前也有人提議過不過沒有形成共識最主要就是這個會增加地方政府很大的財政負擔"},{"start":241.248,"end":263.798,"text":"地方政府財政狀況不一,所以意見也很多。第二個是因為中低收跟低收它有一個,就是我們外部部有一個很清楚的一個界定。另外甚至還包括上邊緣戶的部分。所以現在這部分的一些需求都是由NGO或者明天團體或者善心人士"},{"start":264.738,"end":279.344,"text":"來提供這一些公益善心的一個照顧委員的這個建議充滿善心我想我們這個也知道委員的一個意見不過這個是不是還進一步擬聚公司因為這個畢竟需要修法"},{"start":281.085,"end":303.48,"text":"我對這個這個我是覺得啦其他縣市我不知道因為我們雲林縣來看我們剛剛我說的一些沒有犯法符合到底收入戶這個東西中低收入戶的一些資格一些人民也很多在我們中低收入戶在全國是有10萬戶28萬人有28萬人如果我們部長可以"},{"start":310.244,"end":311.385,"text":"政府都希望能夠照顧更多的人"},{"start":327.577,"end":339.663,"text":"那剛剛委員的這個意見我們會來盡量的整合各縣市政府大家的這個不同的一個意見這個部分我們也會經過正式提案我們也會經過正式提案先讓我們部長先了解一下"},{"start":346.466,"end":371.227,"text":"對阿阿如果內容有什麼問題可以大致大家協議一下齁阿盡量來幫助我們這個中低收入戶因為這個在基層阿我是基層的民意代表出身齁真的很了解基層真的那個辛苦人很多是真的齁阿這個部分再麻煩一下部長齁阿剛剛有在說到我們這個"},{"start":375.991,"end":397.048,"text":"我也是雲林縣預銷副大隊長我覺得我們雲林縣消防弟兄大家都是很認真除了警消預銷他們配合在災害發生的時候"},{"start":397.628,"end":423.613,"text":"他們都非常積極衝鋒陷陣闖入災區在拯救我們人民我要請教那個部長因為我們警消的部分已經是列為公務人員公務人員在疫消的部分各位疫消人員他們都是士農工商的群組大家組成的一個團體大家共同為我們消防的部分"},{"start":424.953,"end":439.842,"text":"同行協力來協助我們錦霄來做救災的部分我要請問說他們目前他們沒有那個薪資也沒有什麼對他們人生有保障的這個機制嗎你是說機制對他們人生安全保障的機制"},{"start":452.878,"end":469.066,"text":"保險是有的,不過委員跟你報告我們目前也正在思考擬定我們疫消的整體災防能力的提升所以未來現在疫消其實是做得還蠻不錯的,你也是副大隊長"},{"start":470.066,"end":492.316,"text":"那我們未來就是希望逸霄能夠接受的這個訓練要比照錦霄那未來呢現在的訓練其實還不是百分之百那未來這個如果是百分之百比照我們錦霄的話那未來甚至是可以給一個這個正式的一個認證"},{"start":493.757,"end":498.561,"text":"那他等於就是具備像國外消防市會有消防人員這樣的一個資格?我很多次都到火場現場去看他們救災的狀況其實以他們的專業已經不遜於我們的警消人員他們的勇氣衝入火海的勇氣也不遜於一般人"},{"start":517.617,"end":520.5,"text":"現在我們正在整體規劃一個預銷的整體量能還有他專業能力的提升的一個中程計劃包括裝備的部分"},{"start":540.34,"end":541.121,"text":"非常謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac7d9f1fe9f8146a9ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a61103ba6c49e276325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:52:27 - 11:02:26","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":599,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:02:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:52:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時52分）主席好。各位官員、各位委員大家早安、大家好。是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，我們有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長早。首先要跟您請問一下，因為我的選區在新北市中和，新北市中和本身的地區比較特別，居住了大概40萬人口，在新北市人數占400萬人口的十分之一，它的土地算是非常小，占新北市整體土地大概只有百分之一的面積，所以是地狹人稠的環境，本席過去不僅對交通問題非常在意以外，也對我們民生相關問題非常在意。第一件事情要請問部長的是，中和污水下水道的接管是從民國93年就開始做第一期的污水下水道的接管，經過20年，現在終於到第三期污水下水道的接管，也要跟部長報告，中間已經經過20年，所以很多中和鄉親苦不堪言，我還記得我小時候，我家人都叫我不要開後門，家裡都有後門，開了以後，那個環境非常不乾淨，造成很多環境衛生或是疾病傳染的問題。想請教部長，現在第三期污水下水道的接管時程為什麼會拖這麼晚，而且要分四個標來執行？現在將近有10萬人還沒有做污水下水道的接管，這個第三期污水下水道的接管大概要多久時間才能完成？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，第一期跟第二期是我們國土署代辦，第三期是新北市政府現在正在進行，他們辦的，所以這個期程是新北市政府自己訂的；我們中央的部分，如果新北市政府依據相關進度，需要中央配合款的部分，我們就是依進度跟比率來撥付、來支持。所以有關期程的部分可能要新北市努力一點，然後我們會來協助。"],["張委員智倫：對，這邊就是我想要請部長來協助的部分，其實我覺得中央、地方要一起來努力，不能說中央推給地方、地方推給中央。","我們來看一下第三期的部分，我覺得比較特別的一個點是，請看到這個圖，上面有顯示，第三期第一標的形狀非常特殊，它是走中和的景平路的方向，它這個形狀非常地狹長，因為我認為我們對於污水下水道的技術已經發展得很完備了，但為什麼第一期的形狀這麼狹長，而且整個施作範圍這麼奇特？是不是中央可以跟地方政府大家可以協調一下？不是說中央政府只出錢，而不去管地方政府如何推動，因為總不能出錢當冤大頭吧！是不是請部長還是誰可以來回答一下？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實我們各期大概都會跟幹線、支線的分布狀況還有住戶的分布密度去做一個推計，所以我想新北市政府這樣做大概是依循這幾個原則，它可能是按照住戶的密度及接管的戶數做一個平均的分配。因為一、二期是由我們署代辦，我們署的水工北區分署協助它做一個全面性的布展，現在新北市也是全面性展開在做，所以它可能囿限於其他人力等等，所以把它再切成比較細，這個部分我會再跟新北市政府瞭解它的狀況。"],["張委員智倫：對，就是麻煩一定要跟新北市政府來做個討論。我這邊是不是可以做個大膽的建議，我覺得中和第三期、第一期的標案跟第三標，我認為是可以把它結合在一起的，因為我們中和的南勢角人口其實非常密集，所以我認為做這個污水下水道的CP值會很高，如果第一期跟第三期整個結合在一起做的話，可以讓我們南勢角的鄉親不要等到5年甚至10年以後才有辦法做污水下水道的接管。因此我這邊拜託第一期跟第三期的部分，第一標的部分長得樣子很像一把斧頭，樣子很奇怪，所以這邊要拜託部長這邊來協助一下。","第二個也是我們中和市民的心聲，當時20年前在做第一期工程時，我不知道為什麼，很多住戶當聽到家裡要拆房子時就非常反彈，造成沒有辦法實際去施行，形成管線阻礙的問題；現在已經施作到第三期了，第一期其實還有一些鄉親是沒有做污水下水道接管的，這個部分中央跟地方要如何去合作，讓一些未來不知道如何做接管的鄉親有一個生活可以變更好的方式。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。因為一般來講，在我們補助給地方政府的下水道經費裡面，我們是請地方政府按照期程來推，過程當中或多或少有些民眾當時觀念上沒辦法突破或是執行上有困難，他不願意配合接管，事實上地方政府會有零星的開口工程，這個一般都會由地方政府執行，它可能每年自己有一些小型的開口合約，因為那個每年的戶數都很少。"],["張委員智倫：你們這邊有沒有辦法跟地方政府去瞭解現在有沒有需要中央來協助的地方？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們可以來跟新北市政府瞭解看看，因為正常來講，我知道他們自己每年有開口合約在處理，這個部分我們會把委員的意思轉達給他們瞭解，請他們積極針對中和一期、二期，有民眾需要用戶接管的部分，在開口合約的部分主動來洽辦。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我來補充一下，這個大概會涉及地方政府的事務，特別是在屋後的尾巷裡面，因為它接管有一些可能會涉及比如違建的問題、違建拆除，這個大概都是到污水下水道最末端的接管會碰到的狀況，一般這個是地方政府在處理。剛剛你提到的一跟三期要併起來，我想我們這邊也會跟新北市政府瞭解，看是不是有這樣的機會，也可以請委員跟市政府這邊來反映，我們雙管齊下。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。因為時間的關係，我趕快請教一下，也是關於我們選區一個比較特別的事情，本身我是在中和，中和有一個非常知名的華新街，那裡居住著非常多緬甸的華僑、很多東南亞的新住民，一直以來，我相信不分黨派、不分顏色，都對我們臺灣的新住民非常重視，想請教部長，中央是不是有定期就新住民的議題開會？有沒有想要成立一個新住民委員會？如果有的話，現在的處理進度時程大概是如何？"],["林部長右昌：委員，在行政院的部分，有新住民的協調會報，這是在院的層級，所以在院的層級開的會議做成的決議，各相關部會就必須依會議的決議下去執行跟推動，另外在部的部分也有。我們當然會希望能夠加強對新住民權益的照顧，我們也再跟院爭取更多的人力跟經費支應。"],["張委員智倫：有打算要成立新住民委員會嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這個不是我的層級可以回答，這屬於院的層級。"],["張委員智倫：那是不是請移民署長來分享一下，我舉例一下，就過去到現在而言，比如說在地有一些知名的活動，中央的部分有沒有一些協助、幫忙的地方？"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告，在地方的各項活動，我們新住民發展基金其實是可以接受申請的，過去每年在地方各項有關新住民照顧服務的一些措施，我們都接受，包括中央政府、地方政府，甚至NGO團體，只要提計畫來，經過我們基金管理會審查以後就會做部分的一些補助。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長。我今天就到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝張智倫委員質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。繼續我們請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.45971875,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.14659375,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.49159375,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.43971875000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.87284375,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.96409375000002,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.25221875,"end":214.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.52846875,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.98346875000001,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.77159375000002,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.10784375000003,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.18346875000003,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.97221875,"end":280.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.81596875,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.21909375,"end":355.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.85721875,"end":377.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.18284375,"end":383.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.13596875,"end":381.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.15284375000005,"end":381.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.73909375000005,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.88659375000003,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.51034375,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.47159375,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.99971875,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.13471875000005,"end":423.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.11659375000005,"end":449.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.13784375,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.40221875000003,"end":460.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.12784375,"end":460.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.21221875000003,"end":497.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.53971875,"end":502.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.39096875,"end":513.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0772187499999,"end":520.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.40096875,"end":539.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.83409375,"end":531.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.13221875,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.97596875,"end":555.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.1928437500001,"end":568.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.3134687500001,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.9365937499999,"end":589.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.79534375,"end":592.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.6809687500001,"end":595.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.97159375,"end":599.5659687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.475,"end":17.099,"text":"好主席好各位官員各位委員大家早安大家好是不是請那個部長好我們有請您部長部長早首先要跟你請問一下因為本身我的選區在新北市中和那新北市中和本身他這個地區比較特別他居住了大概40萬的人口在新北市的人數是佔了"},{"start":39.053,"end":66.357,"text":"﹗"},{"start":66.437,"end":82.217,"text":"第一期的這個下水道接管那經過了20年現在終於到了第三期的下水道接管那也要跟部長報告中間已經經過了20年所以很多綜合的鄉親苦不堪言"},{"start":82.577,"end":110.502,"text":"我還記得我小時候我家人都叫我說不要開後門後門家裡都有都有後門開了以後那個環境非常的這個不乾淨然後造成很多的這個環境衛生或是一些疾病傳染一些問題那想這邊請教部長的問題就是說那現在我們第三期的這個污水下水道的接管的時程為什麼會拖得這麼晚然後而且要分成四個標來做來做實行那之前這邊"},{"start":111.622,"end":117.288,"text":"第一期跟第二期是我們國土署代辦的第三期是新北市政府現在正在進行他們辦的"},{"start":135.367,"end":155.863,"text":"所以這個期程是新北市政府自己訂的那我們中央的部分如果新北市政府依據相關的一個進度需要中央的一個配合款的部分我們就是依進度跟比例來這個來撥付來支持所以這個期程的部分可能要新北市努力一點然後我們會來協助"},{"start":157.244,"end":177.159,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":177.399,"end":177.419,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":199.58,"end":213.938,"text":"施作的範圍這麼的奇特是不是中央可以跟地方政府大家協調一下不是說中央政府只出錢然後不去管說地方政府他是如何去推動因為總不能出錢當冤大頭吧那是不是請部長還是誰可以來回答一下"},{"start":218.761,"end":239.422,"text":"感謝委員因為其實我們各起的這個大概都會跟幹線幹線支線的一個分布狀況還有他那個住戶的分布密度去做一個推計那所以我想新北市政府可能會這樣做大概會依循這幾個原則那所以他可能把它做一個按照這個住戶的密度還有接管的戶數"},{"start":240.343,"end":240.523,"text":"新北市政委會議員"},{"start":265.93,"end":267.571,"text":"中和第三期第一期的標案跟第三標其實我認為他是可以把它結合在一起的"},{"start":281.463,"end":305.596,"text":"因為我們中和的南四角其實人口非常的密集啊所以我認為做這個屋卷下水道的CP值會很高所以第一期跟第三期是因為把整個結合在一起來做的話可以讓我們南四角相信可能不要等到五年甚至十年以後才有辦法做這個屋卷下水道的接管所以我這邊是拜託說第一期跟第三期的部分第一標的部分長的樣子很像打斧頭"},{"start":307.076,"end":307.557,"text":"拜託部長協助一下"},{"start":336.736,"end":355.522,"text":"已經實施到第三期了第一期其實還有一些鄉親他是沒有做屋主要接管的那這個部分中要跟地方要如何去合作來去讓一些過去已經未來不知道如何可以做接管的一些鄉親有一個他的生活環境可以變得更好的方式"},{"start":355.942,"end":383.004,"text":"好謝謝委員因為一般來講就是說在我們補助給地方政府的下水道經費裡面我們是請地方政府按照期程來推那其實過程當中或多或少有些民眾當時可能觀念上沒有辦法突破或是執行上有困難他不願意配合接管那事實上在地方政府他會有零星的所謂的一個開口工程那這個大概一般都會由地方政府來執行也就是說他可能每年自己有一些"},{"start":384.005,"end":412.088,"text":"有一些開口小型的開口合約因為那個每年的戶數都很少那你們這邊有沒有辦法跟地方政府去了解一下他現在有沒有需要中央來去做協助這個我們可以來跟新北市政府了解看看因為正常來講我知道他們自己有開口合約在每年在處理那這個部分可能我們也會把委員的意思轉達給他了解就是說請他能夠積極針對綜合一期二期的部分那有民眾需要用戶接管的這個部分再請他"},{"start":413.169,"end":415.112,"text":"開口合約部門主動來洽辦這個當然會涉及地方政府的事務特別是在這個午後的這個"},{"start":424.358,"end":424.598,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":450.451,"end":476.741,"text":"新北市政府來瞭解看是不是有這樣的機會那也可以請委員也可以這個跟市政府這邊來反映我們雙管齊下好謝謝部長那因為時間的關係我來趕快請教一下我關於也是我們選區的一個比較特別的事情就是說因為本身我是在中和中和有個人非常知名叫華新街他是居住了非常多這個緬甸的華僑很多東南亞的新住民那一直以來其實不管這個"},{"start":478.041,"end":501.733,"text":"不管我相信不分黨派不分顏色都對我們臺灣的新住民非常的重視那想請教有關這個部長這邊我們中央的部分是不是有定期來跟這個新住民的議題來做開會那我們有沒有想說要來成立一個新住民委員會那現在如果有的話現在的這個這個時程大概處理到進度大概是如何"},{"start":505.023,"end":520.468,"text":"委員那個在行政院的部分有新住民的協調會報這個是在院的層級所以在院的層級開的會議做成的決議各相關部會他就必須依會議的決議下去這個執行跟推動那另外在部的部分也有"},{"start":521.688,"end":536.56,"text":"我們當然會希望能夠加強對新住民權益的一個照顧我們也在跟這個院來爭取更多的一個人力跟這個經費支援有打算要成立新住民委員會嗎這個不是我的層級可以回答這個屬於這個院的層級"},{"start":540.262,"end":554.893,"text":"那是不是請移民署長來分享一下說比如說我舉例一下就過去的到現在而言比如說像我們在地有一些知名的活動那中央的部分有沒有一些協助的幫忙的地方"},{"start":557.456,"end":576.352,"text":"跟委員報告在地方的各項活動我們新住民發展基金其實是可以接受申請的那過去的在每年裡面我們都會在地方的各項有關新住民的照顧服務的一些措施"},{"start":577.754,"end":594.809,"text":"我們都接受包括中央政府地方政府甚至NGO團體只要他提計劃來我們都會經過我們基金管理會審查以後就會做部分的一些補助是好好謝謝署長好那我今天就到這邊好謝謝好非常謝謝張主任委員質詢謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5420716115c2bb96ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c95f145e03d1f1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:42:30 - 10:52:24","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":594,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:52:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:42:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時42分）謝謝主席。部長有請。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。"],["林部長右昌：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天內政天下第一大部，事情很多，但沒關係，我們今天主要講消防的題目，其他的部分我們會用書面的方式，希望內政部好好提供資料，這樣可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就開始吧！今天是318，很多人會講這是學運的10週年，但是同時也是美福倉儲大火的2週年，2年前的此刻，這把大火還在熊熊燃燒，消防弟兄累得要命，仔細深究這場大火的成因，大概三件事情：第一叫防治不嚴謹；第二叫救災不方便；第三叫公害不賠償。所以這件事情在地方的反應：第一叫累死打火弟兄；第二叫氣死地方鄉親。所以這件事即便已經過去了2年，但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案要有一個系統性的處理方式，那我想就教一下部長，部長，知不知道什麼叫做火載量？沒關係，署長要提示一下也是沒有問題的。"],["林部長右昌：我想這個請蕭署長，這個比較專業啦！可以請蕭署長說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可以，沒有關係，那署長來回答一下什麼叫火載量。"],["主席：請蕭署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可以燃燒的可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛！換言之，其實簡單來說就是易燃程度啦！署長知不知道相較於工廠，倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，倉儲事實上可以放很多東西，必須要看放的是什麼東西來做處理，我想委員關心的就是這裡面設備強化的情形。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，這我們等一下再問，好啦！我先回答，相較於工廠，倉儲火載量是工廠的四倍到五倍，所以它其實是遙遙領先，我們都講消防、消防，我們待會也會講消防弟兄的福利問題，但是我覺得重點是防治，防治的東西如果做得好，相對來講，你在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多，我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的。那既然倉儲是火載量的第一名，本席就非常希望針對這件事情來好好探討。除了火載量之外，我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了，你也做過地方的縣市首長，對於產業你算是瞭解，對不對？倉儲物流其實是零售業所謂的成本單位，以部長的認識，臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多，還是出租的多？"],["林部長右昌：出租的多。"],["牛委員煦庭：絕對是出租的多嘛！既然它是一個成本單位，又是出租的多，其實會造成什麼樣的問題？就是我既然蓋這個倉儲，不管它是合法也好，違章也好，我就要降低我的成本，簡單快速地去做出租，產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到倉儲空間嘛！所以造成的結構性問題就是在防火這一塊，火載量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的。所以這就導引到我們講美福大火這個問題，其實就是自動灑水系統的問題，當初最早的時候，剛開始有自動灑水觀念、有法規的時候做了函釋，但這個函釋其實相對寬鬆，你可能站在產業這邊來解釋，要有自動堆置的才要做灑水系統，有高度10公尺高才要做灑水系統，結果這個叫上有政策，下有對策。相對來講，這些產業就是，好啊！我就不要做自動堆置的設施，或者是說，就把這高度設定成九米八，剛剛好就可以規避這樣子的一個狀況，所以才導致美福這場大火的發生，即便它過去了2年，但我們不追蹤，這些東西都永遠不會改變。那好玩的是，這場大火發生之後，當然大家就檢討，檢討之後，現在內政部就取消了這個函釋的適用範圍，現在要從嚴處理，那從嚴處理的時候，當然也衍生了很多的問題，我們現在就簡單問一下，既然都發生這樣的事情了，你們是不是要針對相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定，而不是只用函釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間？部長，你的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：當然，所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討，倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出；工廠的部分在今年下半年。至於細節的部分，我請蕭署長來做補充。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要補充嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員。這個問題就是委員提到的，怎麼強化倉儲及工廠的安全，這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水負載量，所以最近我們整個在檢討，倉儲的部分就誠如部長所提到，在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化自動滅火系統、灑水系統的量，這上半年要處理，也就是即使既有的，我們有什麼方法，透過科技的方法，或者施工的方法來強化安全，這是第一點。另外對工廠的部分，我們在下半年會把工廠的部分做強化，目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導、協助、補助既有的場所，或者是特登場所的消防安全，這個目前也在做，預計在下半年可以把這個部分做提報，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛署長已經有講，就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範，還有水量，因為美福大火之後的家樂福大火，那就是水量的問題，為了要救災，還從旁邊借水，水費欠100萬，你就知道當初設計的灑水量有多麼不足，也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生。所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好，我希望這個東西要加速進行，我的要求是這樣，第一個，規則剛性一點、嚴格一點、明確一點，不要有解釋的空間，然後及早界定，標準不能太低，確定了就好好的去執行，也許你要給倉儲業者一點時間去適應，但是該貫徹要貫徹，好不好？我們至少往這個方向對焦，可以嗎？好，謝謝署長。","再來我要講一下消防員待遇的問題，這叫作職務加給要「加成支給」，我們剛剛有講，美福大火這個案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄，事實上，我桃園打火弟兄在全國裡面一向是勤務量相對高的一群，因為我們是產業重鎮，所以我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火弟兄更好的待遇，按照現在的規定，各直轄市政府得視所屬消防單位消防勤務危險程度，以自籌經費，依下列規定另加成支給，新北市、臺北市可以加1倍，也就是從8,435加1倍變成1萬6,870；桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄可以加七成，變成1萬4,340。但這個問題是這樣，加這樣的幅度，我們認為是為德不卒，既然要加就加到位、加有感，所以不只是桃園，新北也好、臺北也好、桃園也好，我們希望要加乾脆就加好加滿，直接加1.5倍，也就是直接加到2萬1,088元。如果這個經費我們要求中央來出，你說你們要妥善研議，那也就算了，我們可以理解，但問題這是地方自籌的，縣市政府想要照顧自己的弟兄，我是希望中央在流程上，因為這個按照法規的流程好像也是要經過中央的核定。我想請問一下，我們現在已經把希望加的額度提上來了，為什麼到現在遲遲沒有下文？請部長說明一下。"],["主席：請部長還是請署長說明？"],["林部長右昌：我請署長做說明。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員垂詢。桃園市的徵詢，我們也針對它的問題，它也補充理由跟說明，同時我們徵詢其他六都的意見，最近意見大概會回來，我們會把整體的意見反映給行政院來做整個的處置。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為就本席的瞭解，現在桃園、臺北、新北都送上去了，還有哪些……"],["蕭署長煥章：還有其他三都。"],["牛委員煦庭：是六都一起檢討是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：南三都還沒有進來是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，我們會尊重南三都的意見，它們的意見來了以後我們會整個做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有抓一個時間表？"],["蕭署長煥章：應該最近我們就可以報到院裡面來做提報。"],["牛委員煦庭：這件事情一樣，會後你要把詳細的時間表讓我們知道，因為桃園地方很希望趕快給桃園弟兄好一點的待遇。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，事實上除了六都以外，還有非六都的問題，所以這個部分會整體考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我理解，所以我講的是，如果這一筆錢由中央來出，你要全部蒐集、要綜合判斷、要綜合考量，那當然沒話講；但既然是縣市自籌的，那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的，對不對？所以針對這件事情為什麼卡關，預計什麼時候可以有明確的結果，你們的額度跟決定額度的理由是什麼，是不是會後請消防署跟內政部提供一個完整的說明？好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：好，謝謝委員。"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，一句話就好。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["林部長右昌：最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊，其實裁處的單位有一些考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係嘛，我剛剛有講，就是時間表跟可能的考量，因為你們負責溝通嘛。"],["林部長右昌：是，我們再把資料送給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就麻煩部長，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：是，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望要重視消防弟兄的權益，還有防治的部分要加強。今天口頭時間有限，我們先談消防。"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：其他的部分我們用書面質詢，再請部裡好好回復，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","部長跟署長，本席建議，因為夏天馬上要到了，我們的打火兄弟在第一線，他們的權益真的要注意一下，本席希望在1個月之內你們趕快做出檢討，好不好？如果是其他各縣市，除了六都之外，其他縣市有問題的話，行政院也要來幫忙處理一下，署長，你更要幫我們的打火兄弟積極爭取，好嗎？好，謝謝。","繼續請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.388468750000001,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.762843750000002,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.997218750000002,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.149093750000002,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.58784375,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.86784375,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.55909375,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.78659375000001,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":80.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.82846875,"end":80.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.84534375,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.02659375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.43971875000001,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.45659375000001,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.83971875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.85659375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.43034375,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.63909375,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.38159375000001,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.91159375000001,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.51221875000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.92034375,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.70659375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.75909375,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.08784375000002,"end":261.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.40346875,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.11471875,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.27909375,"end":329.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.71159375,"end":288.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.82971875000004,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.29784375,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.00909375000003,"end":353.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.98409375,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.31721875,"end":370.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.26846875,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.58909375,"end":372.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.96846875,"end":377.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.13221875000005,"end":405.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.73971875,"end":417.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.09221875000003,"end":418.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.18909375000004,"end":420.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.70784375000005,"end":461.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.38471875000005,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.43909375000004,"end":466.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.70909375,"end":467.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.31659375000004,"end":467.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.41784375000003,"end":467.43471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.43471875000006,"end":467.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.53596875000005,"end":467.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.65409375,"end":467.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.70471875000004,"end":467.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.46409375,"end":484.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.65159375,"end":491.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.87034375,"end":489.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.49034375,"end":500.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.47284375000004,"end":494.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.74596875000003,"end":500.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.76284375000006,"end":509.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.23409375000006,"end":516.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.11909375,"end":538.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.42784375,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.8115937499999,"end":548.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.2322187500001,"end":548.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.2490937499999,"end":552.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.40471875,"end":556.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1553437499999,"end":566.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.22159375,"end":563.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.30534375,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.9040937500001,"end":580.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.66596875,"end":590.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.89221875,"end":592.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.76534375,"end":594.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.64,"end":8.007,"text":"謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長"},{"start":15.974,"end":40.732,"text":"部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒"},{"start":41.733,"end":69.492,"text":"那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個"},{"start":71.933,"end":73.654,"text":"事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量"},{"start":90.316,"end":104.475,"text":"對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?"},{"start":105.556,"end":134.523,"text":"跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好"},{"start":135.083,"end":159.114,"text":"相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位"},{"start":159.974,"end":185.125,"text":"那以部長的認識啦 這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多 絕對是出租的多嘛 對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多 其實會造成什麼樣的問題 其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好 我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租 產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到"},{"start":186.446,"end":199.077,"text":"的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是"},{"start":200.879,"end":229.062,"text":"自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8"},{"start":230.403,"end":249.774,"text":"剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下"},{"start":251.155,"end":273.078,"text":"既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充"},{"start":274.181,"end":291.395,"text":"你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量"},{"start":291.875,"end":306.347,"text":"所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法"},{"start":307.668,"end":328.264,"text":"通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝"},{"start":329.545,"end":352.944,"text":"剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣"},{"start":354.105,"end":371.457,"text":"第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個"},{"start":373.078,"end":389.169,"text":"消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮"},{"start":390.35,"end":415.179,"text":"那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是"},{"start":419.882,"end":433.475,"text":"這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦"},{"start":436.098,"end":436.378,"text":"來 請部長說明還是署長"},{"start":466.568,"end":486.697,"text":"我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎"},{"start":486.977,"end":488.58,"text":"有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報"},{"start":501.016,"end":525.513,"text":"這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛"},{"start":526.354,"end":528.315,"text":"最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊 其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量"},{"start":548.308,"end":567.857,"text":"好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢"},{"start":568.977,"end":591.438,"text":"部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a157d8a999a14d18accd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a62ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:33:22 - 10:42:22","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":540,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:42:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:33:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長早。首先我想要請教社會住宅的部分，因為其實我身邊有非常多跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友，大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋得怎麼樣，我們到底居住權的落實如何。其實看一下過去我們臺灣的資料，2016年當時的社宅大概只有7,200戶，但是到了2023年，現在已經快12萬戶了，加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶，其實是漲了非常非常多倍，這個我要非常的肯定，在這8年裡面做社會住宅做得非常非常用心。過去我們也修了住宅法，在2016年上任之後馬上就修住宅法，讓中央能夠開始協助地方來做這些住宅的興建，包括土地的取得、包括照顧弱勢等等，後續其實也修了平均地權條例，然後擴大租金的補助，還有修正租賃專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等，這些是我們過去這8年在居住正義上面的努力，我要先予以肯定。","只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多，大家就會討論租金怎麼樣、入住的條件怎麼樣，所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節、更具體的部分，讓青年朋友知道，接下來我想要申請社宅、我想要入住社宅，這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起。我接下來要跟部長討論是，現在我們內政部社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式，沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度，可是我知道內政部在上個月跟各縣市有開會，還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式。其實現在臺灣有一些縣市有開始進行這個分級收費的制度，我想要請教的是，我們內政部有考慮要做嗎？如果沒有是為什麼？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的指教。目前有用所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市，第一個是臺北跟桃園，另外，新北是在上個月才要開始做。不過在這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題，譬如說在臺北市，實際上運用社宅的民眾大概有73%，他的所得是在中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下，但是實際上有中低收入或者低收入戶身分的只有15%，這個落差非常的大，所以這是一個蠻大的問題，也就是說資源會有一些錯置……"],["黃委員捷：OK，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：我們目前有新的一個方案，因為大家關心的是新的社宅出來之後，到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高？這一點請大家放心，因為我們未來新的方案會是新的社宅，但是用10年中古屋的租金來作為計算的基準，另外再加打折，打折的折數也比之前再進一步增加。"],["黃委員捷：比八折還低？"],["林部長右昌：還低。"],["黃委員捷：OK。"],["林部長右昌：另外是原本五折的部分會降低到四點五折到三折，所以會比之前的租金水準還要再更降低，這一點請大家放心。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長，這就是我想要知道的，很感謝現在內政部願意進行分級收費的調整，因為大家真的蠻擔心如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式，大家不一定能夠負擔得起，我也知道……"],["林部長右昌：因為大家擔心現在新房子會用新的價錢。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：我們是用10年中古屋來算。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。你剛剛提到那種方案，就是他雖然是用低收入戶的身分去報，但是實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶，這個落差就是會有一種所謂的假窮人出現，我知道內政部的擔憂，你們看這個所得稅資料可能會因為執行業務所得、利息收入或者是租賃所得或是財產交易所得逃漏的情況，導致這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入。我想要講的是，其實有其他的例子，例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋支出的特別扣除額都有20%以下的門檻，也就是說，其實從其他的例子來看，你們還是有辦法儘量去找到他是不是真的是需要協助的對象。因為社宅的目的就是我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度，所以我希望接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人。因為我看了一下，以臺北明倫社宅為例，這個殷鑑不遠，臺北明倫社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的設計，因為裡面我有看到它其實弱勢一戶可能低收入只有二萬多左右，可是國際可負擔租金所得比只有30%，它的負擔所得比是50%到70%，也就是說對於弱勢來說，他是完全沒有辦法支付的。所以我希望這樣的情況不會在中央的社宅裡面出現，然後這個更細的分級制度也一定要訂定，所以新的方案也希望接下來內政部趕快公告，讓大家知道是真的有辦法符合照顧弱勢的。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員，我用20秒跟你回復一下。第一個，我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的精神，所以我們在新的方案的時候，其實將負擔率從原本的30%降到20%，所以我們是朝這個方向在努力。當然，因為臺灣推動社會住宅時間說實在還短，所以我們需要一步一步的朝那個方向去努力；第二個，我們必須要承認現在的課稅制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的問題；第三個，所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的照顧，這部分可能要另外來思考所謂的貧窮線的調整，這需要更大的討論跟共識，基本上站在我們部門的角度，我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮線調整的一個方向。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。剛剛說到稅制的部分，你們可以用其他社福檢核方式去查他的存款、股票、不動產，這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去檢核他是不是符合這個條件。好，謝謝部長，居住正義我們一起努力。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：接下來，我們請警政署長，最後一點時間，我想要問一下……"],["主席：有請黃署長。"],["黃委員捷：因為基隆的警察衝到NET這件事情，從2月1號到現在已經快二個月了，可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚，我覺得警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告？假設現在警察接到一個報案，房東說有一個租客的租約到期還沒有搬走，那警察到現場去溝通協調，但是租客沒有搬走，請問警察可以直接破門而入嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：我想這個涉及到……"],["黃委員捷：可以嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：公權力執行，當然不能這樣子處理。"],["黃委員捷：請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了？"],["黃署長明昭：基隆的警察他們回覆給我的報告資料是說，市政府召開會議的時候……"],["黃委員捷：他說他去協助交通處嘛！可以這樣子嗎？他的協助是破門而入嗎？他第一個去打開門？"],["黃署長明昭：他們給我的資料是說，不是他們去打開的，是由市政府聘請的鎖匠來打開的。"],["黃委員捷：這種說法，你可以接受嗎？署長。"],["黃署長明昭：當然這個後來有提告了，那檢察官那邊在做偵查……"],["黃委員捷：我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦！不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序，產權爭議是一回事，但是警察的職權也是一回事，我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責，並且檢討好嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：好，行政協助我們有訂定一個原則，要律定這個原則並依照這個原則來出勤。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，也謝謝部長跟署長，謝謝。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.957843750000002,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.82659375,"end":12.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.73721875,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.74846875,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.62909375,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.15471875,"end":153.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.07346875000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.14909375000002,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.22534375,"end":187.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.91596875000002,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.57471875000002,"end":219.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.59159375000002,"end":220.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.43346875,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.21596875,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.62096875,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.71346875,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.88596875000002,"end":376.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.02284375000005,"end":376.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.10721875,"end":430.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.72284375000004,"end":379.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.44909375000003,"end":429.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.98909375000005,"end":430.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.25909375000003,"end":476.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.79659375000006,"end":447.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.90159375,"end":450.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.74534375,"end":478.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":493.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.54471875,"end":499.49721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.04659375000006,"end":494.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.12221875000006,"end":498.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.34096875000006,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.36096875000004,"end":508.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.96409375,"end":509.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.90909375,"end":515.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.51596875,"end":527.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.8303437500001,"end":535.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.16659375,"end":536.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.6728437500001,"end":536.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.8415937500001,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.4153437500001,"end":540.70596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.985,"end":10.527,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長"},{"start":18.418,"end":28.083,"text":"首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何"},{"start":32.105,"end":47.455,"text":"那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍"},{"start":47.995,"end":48.015,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":73.58,"end":100.808,"text":"來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請"},{"start":101.348,"end":130.303,"text":"社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有"},{"start":131.164,"end":139.812,"text":"憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼"},{"start":142.47,"end":159.821,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做"},{"start":162.262,"end":186.936,"text":"不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大"},{"start":187.617,"end":202.839,"text":"所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高"},{"start":203.28,"end":232.135,"text":"這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心"},{"start":232.475,"end":252.592,"text":"好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算"},{"start":253.252,"end":275.536,"text":"謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的"},{"start":280.737,"end":285.781,"text":"業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的"},{"start":306.937,"end":324.447,"text":"找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人"},{"start":324.807,"end":347.717,"text":"因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的"},{"start":348.417,"end":375.273,"text":"的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的"},{"start":376.693,"end":397.646,"text":"我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要"},{"start":398.246,"end":416.72,"text":"一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整"},{"start":419.102,"end":448.286,"text":"那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長"},{"start":448.806,"end":476.469,"text":"最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎"},{"start":478.68,"end":498.859,"text":"我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門"},{"start":500.7,"end":526.376,"text":"他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好"},{"start":528.277,"end":528.718,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"149981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ad2e53b81bb604f11ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f03749d7e409c8a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:22:14 - 10:33:17","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":663,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:33:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:22:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時22分）大家好！謝謝主席。本席請林部長。"],["主席：有請林部長，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員早！"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，剛剛許宇甄委員有詢問到數位身分證的問題……"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席要再次確認，所以現在我們內政部是決定不推了還是您說的暫緩？"],["林部長右昌：不是內政部決定，這個是行政院的政策暫緩。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，現在內政部是執行單位嘛！"],["林部長右昌：是、是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在是暫緩？"],["林部長右昌：暫緩。"],["徐委員欣瑩：暫緩的過程有沒有任何的努力？你暫緩就回家睡覺去了嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，暫緩的過程當然有做努力，剛剛提到有兩個部分，這也是在院的層級，第一個是專責的單位，第二個是個資法，當然這個是其他部會所主責，我們的部分就是在已經既有的這個結果之下，比如剛剛在講要進行補償的，我們來進行協調，另外就是已經採購的相關機具設備，還有包括卡片等等……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們一直花，每年花六千多萬在維護，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：那個是必須要確保它的運作……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，既然必須要確保，而且部長也知道每年這樣花費，過去又已經花了十幾億這樣子在進行……"],["林部長右昌：沒有啦！其實並沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒有十幾億，也將近10億嘛！所以在這種情況下……"],["林部長右昌：中央印製廠那個部分其實是應該要扣掉……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒問題……"],["林部長右昌：那個要扣掉，因為那個是我們委給它的，會重複算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為再怎麼樣，數位身分證也是在內政部。部長，您知道現在世界各國有多少國家已經在用數位身分證了嗎？你知不知道？"],["林部長右昌：我想我們現在最新的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就直接回答有幾%？有幾%？"],["林部長右昌：最新的數字我不是很清楚，我會後再跟委員報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們內政部的報告就寫82%，目前已經有使用數位身分證晶片的國家就有82%，預計到2021年底就會有89%，現在已經2024，本席估計全世界90%以上的國家用數位身分證，結果我們臺灣花了10億，到現在我有聽到部長回答，因為國人好像有一些疑慮，那個疑慮就來自於執政無能，花了錢……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，我先講。執政無能，結果民眾有疑慮，臺灣的科技不輸人，我們是科技出身，臺灣的科技不輸人，為什麼世界各國都可以用了，我們臺灣不行？這就表示我們臺灣的政府現在的執政黨就是無能！執政無能，浪費公帑！現在又沒有任何期程，你內政部長講不出來我們接下來，我們有疑慮可以暫緩，我們應該加速啊！我們應該加速，我們在科技上來讓民眾可以認同，還有在資安上加強，世界各國做得到，臺灣政府做不到，這就是一個大笑話！所以本席希望我們內政部，尤其戶政司，身分證就是戶政司主管，我們應該要盡快的，您在行政院院會也要提出來，甚至行政院沒給期程你都應該要給出期程，你都應該要求我們要有期程，現在暫停，暫停了那麼久，怎麼可能每年還一直在養機器？等到你真正要用的時候機器又要重新汰換了，因為又過了，現在已經過那麼多年了，所以我們對這件事非常在意，我們全民對於這樣的花費沒有成果也非常在意，所以……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我可以說明嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以，你先向全國人民道歉，你欠全國人民一個道歉，不管你的賠償給中央印製廠到底合不合理，或者是你過去的花費有任何的理由，我們現在花了那麼多錢都沒有成果，而且還一直拖延，我們希望今天質詢之後，可以加速進行，世界各國可以，我們臺灣一定可以……"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：臺灣的科技一定領先全世界！"],["林部長右昌：謝謝，委員，謝謝你的指教，不過這個資訊上可能有一些落差，第一個，剛剛在講的82%，它並不是全部都是數位身分證，它是數位證件，包括……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，數位晶片，世界各國可以，我們就可以，德國、比利時，所以我們這邊就持續進行，因為我的時間有限……"],["林部長右昌：委員，是不是讓我說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有、沒有，我就是請你……"],["林部長右昌：30秒，好不好？因為這樣子會讓大家誤解……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可以之後書面說明沒有問題，我質詢時間有限。","接著本席要請問，政府不要隨便開空頭支票！我們的行政區劃法或是所謂的行政區劃程序法什麼時候要送到立法院？你只要回答，我給你5秒鐘，什麼時候要送到立法院？請部長表態。"],["林部長右昌：我想我們部已經出去，現在正在國發會，現在在行政院。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在在行政院，所以你內政部的出去了，好，我們希望可以盡快看到。","再來本席想請警政署長。"],["主席：有請警政署署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長、署長，我想請教兩位，你們知不知道我們縣市的基層警員有多重身分？部長，您還做過市長，基隆市長，我們現在的基層警員非常的辛苦，他們多重身分，他要取締噪音的汽機車，列入績效檢討，所以我們的警察成為了環保局的稽查人員，這是第一個；第二個，天氣冷，要宣導防範寒流，天氣熱，要宣導小心中暑，還要跟民眾合照，宣導期還要每天回報件數，所以我們警察也成為了衛生局的員工；再來，春節期間還要發放救濟物資給弱勢家庭，所以我們的警察也成為了社會局的員工；再來，我們的警察還要勘查防空避難所，還成了工務局的員工；派出所還成為司法文書掛號信的免費存放地，所以我們的警察還要變成郵局的員工。","部長、署長，警力有限，但是非警勤務是無限，你們造成非警勤務無限，我們的警察應該是要維護治安、打擊犯罪，還有維護我們的交通秩序，為什麼他們有那麼多重身分？我們上級單位不僅沒有體恤警察的辛勞、爭取福利，還增加這麼多非本業的工作，所以可不可以請警政署回去盤點所有派出所的非警勤務，提出具體的改進作為，1個月內送本院內政委員會？"],["林部長右昌：委員，其實這也是回應民意的期待，很多民意代表反映，所以警察才有這麼多工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們知道嘛！所以是不是可以回去檢討，而且1個月內送給我們內政委員會？"],["林部長右昌：是，當然沒有問題，不過委員列的裡面其實也有一些是我們法定的工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，因為本席今天也有提案，我們海巡跟警察車牌辨識系統的介接建置，主席，我問最後一題，這個介接好像是海巡署提出，因為查緝犯毒從港口查到陸地，到了市區要介接這個車牌辨識系統，好像一個海巡署、一個警政署，署長為難署長，這個情況是怎麼回事？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，我想警政署各縣市政府所建置這個車牌辨識系統附加在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在就是要跟海巡署介接的情況，為什麼我們警政署有意見？大家共同打擊犯罪。"],["黃署長明昭：這涉及到個資的問題，所以我們請海巡署再函給主管機關做函釋，如果函釋個資沒有問題的話，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那本席就說了，這個函釋從去年的10月向警政署正式申請，一直都還沒有得到回復，到上個禮拜五傍晚，本席這邊關切……"],["黃署長明昭：個資法的主管機關是國發會，要國發會他們解釋說：OK，沒問題，那就可以來後續推動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們警政署完全可以配合？"],["黃署長明昭：這個還有一個問題，我要補充一下，因為這是縣市政府警察局所建置的，所以還要經過縣市政府這一關，普遍同意以後就沒問題了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們警政署就應該整合啦！"],["主席：黃署長抱歉，我覺得委員的質詢是有道理的，我覺得署長跟其他的國發會也好、地方政府也好，你們應該趕快嫁接起來，因為我們海巡弟兄很多其實都是軍警退過去的，照理說你們是一家人，對不對？剛剛委員有一個臨時提案，他希望1個月之內你們可以趕快處理，好不好？不要各司其職啦！"],["黃署長明昭：是，警政署原則上是同意，但是……"],["主席：既然警政署原則同意……"],["黃署長明昭：程序上的一個流程要完成……"],["主席：請聽主席講完，你們原則同意，絕對沒問題，所以要邀請你們跟地方政府跟國發會來一起，如果你覺得比較困擾，那主席就來發開會通知，可以嗎？還是你們先趕快去整合一下吧！如果有什麼問題，我們再幫你們協調、處理，好嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：我們先協調，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，欣瑩委員可以嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以。"],["主席：謝謝欣瑩委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝。","繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.498468750000001,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.388468750000001,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.52596875,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.26846875,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.242218750000003,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.24096875,"end":37.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.924093750000004,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.96159375,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.45096875,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.58534375,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.67784375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.76221875,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.66909375,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.51846875000001,"end":78.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.67721875000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.02284375,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.85784375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.12784375000001,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.75096875,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.66159375000001,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.68221875,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.89096875000001,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.27034375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.61159375000001,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.80096875000001,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.52221875,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.68971875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.22096875,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.60784375,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.67784375000002,"end":248.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.81909375,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.78096875000003,"end":280.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.65034375,"end":275.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.68409375000005,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.20721875000004,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.45596875,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.35846875000004,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.52534375,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.52846875,"end":300.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.50659375000004,"end":310.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.73409375,"end":330.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.43909375000004,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.68721875,"end":339.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.83846875,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.37846875,"end":342.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.40784375000004,"end":342.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.44159375000004,"end":356.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.95471875000004,"end":354.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.31659375000004,"end":359.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.22784375000003,"end":361.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.98284375000003,"end":433.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.86596875000004,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.89846875,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.61909375000005,"end":483.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.03596875000005,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.03096875000006,"end":486.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.18284375,"end":486.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.33471875000004,"end":492.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.93284375,"end":494.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.19846875,"end":494.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.40096875,"end":494.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.50221875000005,"end":530.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.55534375,"end":562.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.69346875,"end":539.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.72721875,"end":539.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.74409375,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.0478437500001,"end":540.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.70596875,"end":540.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.7903437500001,"end":541.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.1953437500001,"end":546.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.7978437500001,"end":547.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.00284375,"end":559.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.41596875,"end":561.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.0359687499999,"end":578.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.4109687499999,"end":565.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.62909375,"end":578.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.97846875,"end":586.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.4497187500001,"end":606.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.02284375,"end":592.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.16034375,"end":615.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.4084687500001,"end":608.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.3272187499999,"end":629.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.1497187500001,"end":617.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.16659375,"end":617.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.9465937500001,"end":621.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.03096875,"end":621.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.87471875,"end":622.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.89471875,"end":631.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.2109687500001,"end":632.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.7634687500001,"end":637.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.19784375,"end":663.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.9522187499999,"end":639.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.3928437500001,"end":655.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.7765937500001,"end":656.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.8015937499999,"end":658.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.434,"end":12.015,"text":"大家好謝謝主席本席請林部長好有請林部長謝謝部長剛剛徐宇貞委員有詢問到數位身份證的問題那本席要再次確認所以現在我們內政部是決定不推了還是您說的暫緩"},{"start":33.448,"end":37.857,"text":"不是內政部決定這個是行政院的政策暫緩那現在是暫緩的過程有沒有任何的努力"},{"start":45.891,"end":48.893,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":66.323,"end":83.541,"text":"﹗"},{"start":83.561,"end":83.821,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":114.396,"end":118.02,"text":"目前已經有使用數位身份證晶片的國家就有82%預計到2021年底"},{"start":135.796,"end":136.296,"text":"等下我先講﹖"},{"start":161.603,"end":181.997,"text":"執政無能,結果民眾有疑慮台灣的科技不輸人我們是科技出身台灣的科技不輸人為什麼世界各國都可以用了我們台灣不行這就表示我們台灣的政府現在的執政黨就是無能然後這個執政無能浪費公帑"},{"start":182.817,"end":203.488,"text":"那現在又沒有任何期程你內政部長講不出來我們接下來我們暫停暫緩有餘率暫緩可以我們應該加速啊我們應該加速我在科技上我們來讓民眾可以認同還有我們科技我們在資安上來加強世界各國做得到"},{"start":204.028,"end":232.461,"text":"台灣政府做不到這就是一個大笑話所以本席希望我們內政部竟然是尤其護政司嘛這個身份證就是護政司我們應該要盡快的您在行政院院會也要提出來甚至行政院每給期程你都應該要給出期程你都應該要求我們要有期程現在暫停暫停了那麼久怎麼可能每年我還一直在養機器"},{"start":233.661,"end":248.605,"text":"等你到你真正要用的時候我機器又要重新開換了因為又過了現在已經過那麼多年了所以我們對這件事非常在意那我們全民對於這樣的一個花費沒有成果也非常在意"},{"start":249.886,"end":274.18,"text":"我可以先向全國人民道歉你欠全國人民一個道歉這個不管你的賠償給這個中央印製局到底合不合理或者是你過去的花費有任何的理由我們現在花了那麼多錢都沒有這個成果而且還一直拖延我們希望今天質詢之後那可以加速進行"},{"start":275.04,"end":293.314,"text":"世界各國可以我們臺灣一定可以臺灣的科技一定領先全世界謝謝委員謝謝你的指教不過這個資訊上可能有一些落差第一個剛剛在講82%它並不是全部都是數位身份證它是數位證件包括像這個數位晶片"},{"start":296.736,"end":297.117,"text":"政府﹖"},{"start":318.72,"end":320.121,"text":"我們部已經出去現在正在國發會"},{"start":341.442,"end":341.602,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":360.305,"end":383.909,"text":"部長、署長我想請教兩位你們知不知道我們縣市的基層警員有多重身份部長您還做過市長基隆市長我們現在的基層警員非常的辛苦他們多重身份他要取締噪音的汽機車列入縣校檢討所以我們的警察呢成為了"},{"start":384.569,"end":400.175,"text":"環保的稽查人員環保局的稽查人員這第一個第二個天氣冷要宣導防範寒流天氣熱要宣導那個小心中暑所以還要跟民眾合照宣導期還要每天回報建樹"},{"start":401.175,"end":401.315,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":424.42,"end":433.402,"text":"派出所還成為司法文書掛號性的免費存放地所以我們的警察還要變成郵局的員工"},{"start":434.892,"end":434.932,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":457.415,"end":474.606,"text":"提取他們的辛勞爭取福利還增加這麼多非本業的工作所以可不可以請警政署回去盤點所有派出所的非警勤務提出具體的改進作為一個月內送本院內政委員會"},{"start":476.581,"end":492.45,"text":"委員其實這也是回應民意的期待很多民意代表反映所以警察才有這麼多的工作所以您知道嘛所以是不是可以回去檢討而且一個月內送給我們內政委員會是當然沒有問題不過這裡面委員列的其實也有一些是法定的我們的工作"},{"start":493.371,"end":494.151,"text":"主席我最後一題"},{"start":510.41,"end":527.323,"text":"那這個借街好像海巡署提出因為我們查緝販毒你從港口查到陸地那到了市區我們要借街這個車牌辨識系統好像警政署一個海巡署一個警政署署長為難署長那這個情況是怎麼回事"},{"start":532.588,"end":559.107,"text":"跟委員報告我想警政署各縣市政府所建置這個車牌辨識系統附加在現在就是要跟海巡署借接的情況為什麼我們警政署有意見大家共同打擊犯罪所以我們請海巡署在請函給那個主管機關做函式如果函式沒有問題就是各自沒有問題的話那本席就說了"},{"start":562.93,"end":585.049,"text":"這個韓市從去年的10月向李警政署正式申請一直都還沒有得到回覆到上個禮拜五傍晚本席這邊關切各支法的主管叫國發會要國發會他們解釋說OK沒問題那就可以來後續推動"},{"start":587.523,"end":613.654,"text":"所以你們警政署完全可以配合這個還有一個問題我補充一下因為這個建制是縣市政府警察局所建制的所以還要在縣市政府這邊這一關在普遍同意以後這個問題就沒有問題了那你們警政署就應該整合啊我覺得委員的質詢是有道理的我覺得署長跟其他的國發會也好地方政府也好你們應該趕快嫁接起來"},{"start":615.435,"end":615.595,"text":"請聽主席講完"},{"start":640.563,"end":656.122,"text":"您們原則同意 原本沒問題 所以要邀請你們跟地方政府跟國發會來一起 如果你覺得這比較困擾 那主席就來發開會通知 可以嗎還是你們先趕快去整合一下吧 如果有什麼問題我們再幫你們協調處理 好嗎 謝謝新委員可以嗎 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a081f26fae535a04925cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a619161ef466b908c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:01:59 - 11:15:40","影片長度":"00:13:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":821,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:15:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:01:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時2分）主席，再請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的有關這個事件的一些時間序，老實說，光看這兩份報告，我們都覺得非常的失望，因為發生了這個天大地大的事情，我們要看的是檢討式的報告，而不是說我們怎樣去修改流程，或是所謂比較像是政令宣導的報告，還好部長你今天做了更深入的口頭說明，比起那兩份報告，我們知道部長的團隊大概這個週末是一刻都不得休息。不過我還是覺得部長今天的報告比較是選擇性的針對地方機構和媒合機構的檢討，至於中央機構、中央主管機關部分，我等一下會有一些事實的討論，就是中央機構本身也有很多需要思考檢討的。","部長，我把質詢題目定位是「一個被置身社安網外的孩子的死」，為什麼我會這樣說呢？我們先看孩子還在世的時候，當然很多委員都提到了，兒福轉介剴剴到劉姓保母這邊提供全日托育，那天是去年的9月1日，但是在25天後，托育服務中心到現場訪視，寫下的字眼是：孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動，需要再花時間慢慢引導。部長，我不知道這段話是一個官樣文章，還是其實背後隱藏了高度警訊？就局外人來看，這是一個高度警訊，但是他就做出了這樣的紀錄。有這樣的紀錄之後，我比較不能接受的是，按照托育服務中心的說法，竟然在3個月後，即12月才要再進行第二次的無預警訪視。然而一通來自保母家的電話表示有同住家人確診，所以就取消了這個訪視，3天後孩子過世。我很想知道那通電話是怎麼談的，那通電話如果是保母方跟托育中心方在討論，我很想知道電話中有沒有提到這個孩子。同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎？保母有沒有提到說會照顧好這個孩子？探視的這一方有沒有說孩子你要保護好？是不是這通電話至少要關心到這個孩子，因為原來的主角就是孩子啊！但是3天後這個孩子過世了，這是非常不幸的事情。","部長，當然你今天道歉了，過去對於食安的問題等等，你都說道歉無濟於事，但是這個兒虐事件，陳建仁院長道歉了，你今天也道歉了！你過去說過道歉無濟於事，老實說，我也承認道歉無濟於事，要認錯才有幫助，因為有錯的地方，我們才知道如何從錯誤的地方來檢討。另外，這是去年12月發生的事，竟然到3月11日才由殯儀館人員透露出來，因為孩子火化之後，聽說包括相關費用都是殯儀館的人支付的，然後這個事才爆發出來。經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來，我不知道這個新聞點是不是有政治考量，居然是3個多月之後才爆發出來！","我們再來看孩子過世之後的事情。12月24日孩子過世了，社會局當然是有不對的地方，第一個，本來就有「重大兒虐事件防治小組實施計畫」，這個計畫我今天查了，是2011年就有了，社會局多此一舉，他沒有依照這個實施計畫，而是去詢問保護司。部長，你知道保護司怎麼回答嗎？保護司回復：此案件行為人是保母，不符合上開計畫。因為上開計畫講的是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人的虐兒事件。部長，保護司這樣回復是對的嗎？保母不是實際照顧的人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這個部分就是我今天口頭報告的最後一點，事實上這樣回復是不對的……"],["陳委員昭姿：是不當的。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為重大兒虐就是重大兒虐，所以我對外界講說人都死了，怎麼不是重大兒虐！我是講給我們內部的人員以及外部人員，就是各縣市承辦人員，包括他的長官聽的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我覺得保護司還有一個離譜的地方，保護司跟社家署同屬衛福部，同在一棟大樓上班，聽說他們退回了社會局的說法，因為認為不符合，並建議他去找負責保母及收養業務的社家署，這樣又晚了2天。12月27日社會局詢問社家署，社家署回答什麼？更離譜了！「因為涉及署內跨科室業務，是否召開重大檢討會議，尚在研議中，如需召開再行通知。」從此就沒有下文。部長，這個說法你接受嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這同時也是我今天致歉，答應必須要檢討的事情，因為我們督導不夠周延，事實上，如果這個事情牽涉到部內，部內應該就有機制去協調……"],["陳委員昭姿：橫向聯繫。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果是牽涉到社會局，局內也應該有橫向聯繫的……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，我再告訴你，包括署內也有問題。我高度敏感，從3月11日爆發這個案件之後，當天晚上我就要求我的助理馬上聯繫，第2天早上社家署有派人來說明，我問了一連串的問題，大概問了一、二十個問題，等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一些問題點我覺得非常重要，但是社家署的代表跟我說他們是昨天才知道這件事。3月12日早上社家署告訴我，他們也是昨天才知道這件事，就是媒體報導了才知道這件事！部長，我前面已經談過了，事實上，12月27日社會局已經因為保護司的推託，而跟社家署報告過，但社家署的人3月12日到我辦公室跟我說他昨天才知道這件事！"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員提到在12月的時候，的確地方政府是有通報……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，是有通報，我認為社家署的人不會想要欺騙我，但如果他真的不知道發生這件事，那不只是橫向的聯繫問題，這個署內的聯繫也有問題啊！針對這麼重大的事情，派這個代表來找我，我先不說他的職稱，他說他不知道，是昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情，部長，這是我親自在我辦公室發生的。我問了非常多的問題，包括剛剛其他委員關心的，我問了一連串的問題，包括為什麼原來照顧他的保母願意收養孩子，但是沒有被重視，後來的評估當然有些地方機構、媒合機構要負責任，但是您是主管機構。","第二個就是這麼小的孩子，他在保母家被照顧，應該給他熟悉的地方嘛！在這麼短暫的安置期間，他竟然又要再換一個新的保母，這對孩子是何等的殘忍！我這樣子一直問，甚至提出因為兒福機構做出這樣的一個決定，那是不是可以先暫停它的新收養案件，我們來好好檢討發生什麼事，您知道社家署代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎？我不知道他現在有沒有在場，他就跟我說於法無據、都做不到。"],["薛部長瑞元：假如是這個部分的話，後來我們也就是暫停了。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想知道兒福的報告、我想知道社會局的報告，他們都說我沒有資格去看這些資料，我在這裡就是讓部長瞭解。等到案發以後，李次長的回復也非常不恰當，他說因為通報時兒童已經死亡，社政體系配合檢警調查，所以未循重大虐兒事件去程序調查，您同意這個說法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不是可以請李次長來回答？"],["陳委員昭姿：實在是聽不下去、看不下去了！"],["李次長麗芬：跟委員報告，因為我們要先去釐清它是不是一個兒虐的案件，就像最近臺北市來通報兩個疑似的案件，他也會希望要先釐清，因為在這個過程當中，我們並沒有得到最後的釐清它是不是兒虐案件。當然我們有一個責任就是我們的同仁應該去追那個進度，我們對於這個沒有做到督導的部分也表示抱歉。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，現在是保護司解釋說它不符合喔！它說保母不符合這些規範的行為人喔！這……"],["李次長麗芬：跟委員報告，應該都是重大兒虐，可是在我們內部及地方的分工，會去分不同的場域發生的兒虐有不同的單位要負責，那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事已經搞3個月了。"],["李次長麗芬：我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責。"],["陳委員昭姿：從地方政府、中央政府到社會局兒福部門，我剛剛提到證據都很清楚，從保護司、社家署到次長的發言，雖然兒福有道歉，但是現在還沒有認錯。好吧，就算是交給檢調在做調查中，請問社會局要認錯嗎？保護司要認錯嗎？社家署要不要認錯呢？次長你們要認錯，還是部長就認錯了？不是道歉，而是認錯！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話是政務官負全部的責任，所以我代表再度的致歉，對裡面這樣子從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的，應該是以個案為中心，以小孩子的利益為……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是替你們擔心啦，因為這些發言說不符合上開條件，屬於要跨科室的再討論，這個以後會變成經典之言喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，關於這一個部分的話，我稍微做一點解釋，因為社政的業務非常繁雜，在過去還沒有歸到衛福部之前、還在內政部的時代，對於這些業務的分割就非常的細，所以同仁就變成有一個思考，一旦有一個事件發生的時候，他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們剛剛是從兒虐……已經11年了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這不對啦，這種想法是不對的，他必須要去做所謂文化的變革，針對這部分的話，我們願意來啟動，開始做這一方面……"],["陳委員昭姿：時空環境不同了，就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理，而且要落實，你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，委員是醫療界出來的應該也很清楚，過去我們對病人也都不是以病人為中心，而是以哪一科、哪一科這樣子分科去做對病人的處理，現在我們往這方面去走。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，正是因為你也出身醫界，這個圖你很清楚嘛，我們20年來在處理病安的時候，大家都看到cheese理論，今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是因為一路錯、一路漏接、一路沒有承接住嘛！這個孩子始終沒有進入社會安全網，他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子，他需要特別保護，但是整個卻都是漏接的。"],["薛部長瑞元：我認為他有進入社會安全網，但是社會安全網裡面的一些機制沒有保護到他啦……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是每個人反應都不對、不恰當啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我對於剛剛委員所提到保護司、社家署的部分，我已經做了一些解釋。"],["陳委員昭姿：我最後要說的是，我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有嬰兒肥和甜甜的笑容，我真的很慶幸他在短短的一生當中，還曾經有過一段這麼快樂的時光，我也很慶幸在他的生命中至少還有一段這樣的時間，我們一起為這個孩子祝福，希望他往生後會得到安息。部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢，等一下邱鎮軍委員發言完畢之後，我們處理臨時提案。先預告今天中午12點半左右會休息30分鐘用餐，因為今天會議比較冗長，也要讓官員有時間稍微用餐、休息。","現在輪到本席發言，麻煩陳委員暫代主席。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：請王委員育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.008468750000002,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.328468750000003,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.94409375,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.49534375,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.891593750000002,"end":65.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.46471875,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.43846875,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.23409375,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.15471875,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.64284375000001,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.81971875,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.71596875,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.71971875,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.99784375000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.73159375,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.54159375,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.62846875000002,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.93096875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.93034375000002,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.35096875000002,"end":195.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.55721875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.61971875,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.43346875,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.21659375000002,"end":250.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.16909375,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.69971875,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.54159375,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.96221875000003,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.50596875,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.35659375,"end":293.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.02284375,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.17034375000003,"end":299.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.79846875000004,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.56596875,"end":322.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.23971875,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.38284375,"end":313.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.39909375,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.99784375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.02721875000003,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.88346875,"end":330.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.54471875,"end":348.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.82034375,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.65971875,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.65471875000003,"end":356.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.90346875,"end":365.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.67409375,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.99034375,"end":369.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.47534375000004,"end":379.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.60034375000004,"end":391.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.19409375000004,"end":388.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.98284375000003,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.59409375,"end":395.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.05784375,"end":397.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.56784375,"end":401.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.92596875000004,"end":407.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.47784375000003,"end":419.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.28596875000005,"end":422.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.38659375000003,"end":435.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.23284375000003,"end":445.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.76284375,"end":447.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.65721875,"end":455.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.31846875,"end":456.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.40284375000005,"end":455.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.51659375,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.24221875,"end":457.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.39409375,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.42784375,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.52721875000003,"end":470.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.23159375000006,"end":476.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.93096875000003,"end":480.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.79971875,"end":531.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.8840937500001,"end":535.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.95159375,"end":538.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.77409375,"end":538.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.03534375,"end":541.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.0522187500001,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.72284375,"end":563.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.07784375,"end":567.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.53721875,"end":567.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.58784375,"end":567.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.22909375,"end":568.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.27971875,"end":568.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.29659375,"end":568.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.9040937500001,"end":572.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.61659375,"end":577.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.10096875,"end":599.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.0303437499999,"end":600.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.9328437500001,"end":617.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.8290937500001,"end":620.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.29721875,"end":623.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.24596875,"end":623.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.98409375,"end":640.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.23034375,"end":643.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.8628437500001,"end":647.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.5247187500001,"end":649.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.5247187500001,"end":656.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.72159375,"end":658.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.66221875,"end":659.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.7253437500001,"end":662.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.75846875,"end":670.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.4622187500001,"end":679.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.79534375,"end":670.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.4990937500002,"end":676.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.2665937500001,"end":685.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.10534375,"end":687.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.67034375,"end":693.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.0828437499999,"end":695.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.70284375,"end":698.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.16221875,"end":699.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.56284375,"end":702.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.80721875,"end":709.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.47284375,"end":713.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.2153437500001,"end":713.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.84346875,"end":722.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.9484687500001,"end":717.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.4834687500002,"end":730.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.79971875,"end":724.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.6553437500002,"end":730.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.5834687500001,"end":732.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.10221875,"end":749.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.7253437500001,"end":741.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.40034375,"end":741.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.07534375,"end":742.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.15471875,"end":747.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.97284375,"end":772.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.19346875,"end":769.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.16784375,"end":778.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.6184687500001,"end":778.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.0990937500001,"end":787.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.29659375,"end":784.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.49471875,"end":792.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.58221875,"end":798.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.74159375,"end":811.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.9209687500002,"end":816.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.1015937500001,"end":817.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":818.9578437500002,"end":821.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.961,"end":32.143,"text":"主席 再請部長 謝謝休息一下好 部長請部長 直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說 光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告"},{"start":32.803,"end":49.079,"text":"而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊"},{"start":52.042,"end":53.602,"text":"中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的"},{"start":77.247,"end":97.002,"text":"部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號"},{"start":99.692,"end":124.735,"text":"但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊"},{"start":125.996,"end":154.188,"text":"就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診"},{"start":155.809,"end":184.215,"text":"所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊"},{"start":185.015,"end":208.891,"text":"是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了"},{"start":209.892,"end":227.791,"text":"當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事"},{"start":228.692,"end":248.499,"text":"到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來"},{"start":250.3,"end":273.052,"text":"那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司"},{"start":278.015,"end":300.592,"text":"部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?"},{"start":303.212,"end":320.749,"text":"報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的"},{"start":323.23,"end":347.984,"text":"內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號"},{"start":351.547,"end":365.585,"text":"社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文"},{"start":366.721,"end":391.734,"text":"部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的"},{"start":392.674,"end":419.467,"text":"局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說"},{"start":420.347,"end":420.367,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":448.417,"end":475.982,"text":"事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道"},{"start":477.961,"end":504.506,"text":"他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他"},{"start":505.086,"end":531.318,"text":"在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎"},{"start":535.112,"end":563.012,"text":"我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":564.93,"end":577.576,"text":"呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近"},{"start":578.188,"end":578.208,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":598.869,"end":621.589,"text":"所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責"},{"start":623.951,"end":640.299,"text":"以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?"},{"start":649.686,"end":662.483,"text":"這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的"},{"start":664.207,"end":671.898,"text":"應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。"},{"start":679.329,"end":699.454,"text":"委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以"},{"start":700.615,"end":718.25,"text":"同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革"},{"start":718.931,"end":737.376,"text":"那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了"},{"start":738.137,"end":753.717,"text":"過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎"},{"start":754.198,"end":777.285,"text":"我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊"},{"start":779.465,"end":786.851,"text":"我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容"},{"start":798.92,"end":799.26,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"149979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac63a09f57368c5b987ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a67766c67842c2092a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:01:02 - 11:13:12","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":730,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:13:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:01:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時1分）好，謝謝主席。有請潘部長、矯正署周署長還有謝廳長、郭副司長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長、署長、廳長和郭副司長。謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，我問題一個一個問，所以有些列席人員可能要稍微等待一下。","好，請問部長，因為我剛剛有跟你詢問目前有多少保護管束的人在學校，你好像不太知道嘛！對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：詳細的數據可能在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我可以請問一下司法的部分。但是我覺得很奇怪，就是他已經保護管束了，他回到校園也就是在教育部管轄範圍，教育部應該要有權責去瞭解到底有多少孩子已經回到學校。請問你個人認為這些人回到學校以後適不適合繼續留在學校？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，委員關切的這個議題也是我們前一段時間一直在跨部會、跨院努力的部分，因為現在如果涉及曝險少年或司法少年，它有一個過程，一個是調查過程，一個是到最後的裁決過程，就是委員提到適不適合的過程，過去這方面由少年法庭少保官處理的時候，學校在過程當中未必都能被邀請，所以這次我們希望對於可能會對他人造成身體或生命傷害的對象，應該要邀請學校在調查過程及裁決過程充分參與，這個就會回應到委員所提到的這種高風險的對象，我想我們在討論的過程當中，學校或主管機關就能夠更充分地參與。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣聽起來好像不太適合嘛！對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：針對委員所關心的適不適合回到學校，應該是大家要綜整地去做客觀條件上的討論和決定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，但是我剛剛所想問的第一個問題就是，保護管束的人有多少在學校？從今天開始以後，我覺得教育部有責任去串接和瞭解，有多少孩子回到校園？我覺得這是教育部應該要關注的一個議題。"],["潘部長文忠：我想我們跨部會之間會來做這方面數字上的聯繫和掌握。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，接下來我想請問一下司法院，現在少年觀護所和矯正學校對於安置在所內的少年都如何進行輔導？成效如何？再犯的機率你們有評估過嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，如果是在少觀所和矯正學校，目前少觀所大概都是法官認為不適合責付的，這部分法院當然會有法官經由調查官，針對這個少年在少觀所的就學跟學校單位聯繫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前成效如何？"],["謝廳長靜慧：目前每個案子法院大概都有在take care，包括安置機構的也是在社區當中，比如說臺北的孩子被安置到花蓮，花蓮地方政府就會收到法院的通知，去安排他的就學、就業，甚至於說有些孩子會在就學期間接受心理諮商，這些大概都有一個安置輔導計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我個人覺得你回答得很多，但是都沒有切中我們的要點。我覺得少年保護的執行力不彰，讓我們覺得這樣子的事件會層出不窮。在這些少年離開少觀所或矯正學校以後，地方法院少觀人的人數真的不足，司法院在自己的報告也寫到，新北校園暴力事件的發生顯示實務上多數少年法院調查保護室人力不足。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：廳長，我想問一下，人力不足這件事情已經是老問題了，在人力不足的情況下，要如何發揮輔導的功能？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，2月1日我們其實已經有進行一個緊急的評估，就是我們透過這個試辦計畫，希望評估現在在社區就學中的這些保護管束少年的風險因子，並列入保護管束當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：試辦計畫什麼時候會結束？"],["謝廳長靜慧：試辦計畫我們是在2月1日啟動，之後會陸續讓其他法院推行，目前是針對六都的7個法院，現在我們全國……"],["羅委員廷瑋：希望在整個試辦完以後可以彙整相關資料讓我們知道一下。"],["謝廳長靜慧：可以、可以，目前有966件經過我們評估列入高風險。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我要講的就是老問題啦！每年都在出現新事件以後再來再次檢討，還是老問題！","司法院要成立新的少年法院，會不會與地方法院的少年及家事法院有疊床架屋的問題？"],["謝廳長靜慧：這不會有疊床架屋的問題，我們是把目前在普通法院裡面的少家法庭拉出來，比照高雄少家法院一樣，成立一個專業法院，專業法院就會有獨立的預算可以去增補相關的調保人力，並且去督考相關保護處分的執行，就是剛剛委員關心的那些問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：廳長，法院並不是越來越多越好，如何能夠強化？我覺得重點還是在如何承接這些少年。"],["謝廳長靜慧：當然、當然，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：新北國中這個割頸案，加害人曾收容於少年觀護所，故依少年事件處理法，應該有少年保護官進行專責的社區處遇，但為什麼沒有留意？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，這個個案就我們的瞭解，其實保護官也都有跟學校的生教組長還有輔導老師、跟學校端也都有開過相關的會議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是我們有少年保護官專責處理這個部分，可是我就覺得沒有留意到。廳長，我覺得這位少年回到學校以後並沒有被制度給接住，難道他被放棄了嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：沒有、沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還是就交給學校，全部都丟給教育部？"],["謝廳長靜慧：不是。跟委員報告，他從少觀所出來其實就是在保護管束期間，就會有一個保護官跟學校去討論如何讓少年可以在學校接受輔導，還有保護官的監督和他的輔導計畫的進行，所以這個部分其實大概都有相關的制度和相關的人員……"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛有一些立委也在討論，我覺得有少年保護官一起來負責，才能增加對犯罪少年的約束力，而不是少年回到學校就丟給教育部。我想這個部分我要幫教育部講一些話，我覺得應該是要串接起來，一起來承接這些少年，一起來協助他們，我覺得這個部分應該有待加強。政府到底給這些觸法少年什麼樣的支援，你可以簡單說明嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，除了剛剛說的2月1日開始的試辦計畫之外，從事情發生以來，我們也跟行政院開過3次會議，13日更是跟行政院的2位政委到司法院達成了一個兩院的決議，對於教育部的多元漸進式中介教育措施，將來從案子繫屬在法院之後，就會由我們的調查官和保護官去跟學校進行相關個案的聯繫和討論，其實過去以來一直也都是這樣，可是將來我們增補人力之後，會把這個部分的密度做得更高。"],["羅委員廷瑋：人力真的不足，資源真的有限啦！","再來就是少輔會嘛！現在少輔員、社工能不能夠因應轄內的需求？我覺得這個部分應該是不夠，要怎麼輔導？"],["謝廳長靜慧：少輔會可能就要問內政部了，因為行政輔導先行。其實跟委員報告，行政輔導先行就是我們被整個國際專家認為我們應該廢除「虞犯」，所以行政輔導先行會由行政院、由地方政府首長帶領的少輔會去進行少年的輔導事項。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為幾位列席官員都有被叫上台，我就一起講了。我覺得最後還有一個值得討論的，少觀所和矯正學校現在安置人數有限，如果安置人數都已經滿員了，要如何安置這些人？這也應該是值得我們去探究的一個問題啊！"],["謝廳長靜慧：安置的部分委員是說剛剛那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：少觀所還有矯正學校的安置人員。"],["謝廳長靜慧：這個部分是不是要請署長來說明？如果是少觀所和少矯學校的話。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我都一併叫上台了嘛，所以有聽到問題可以直接回應沒關係。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，如果就少觀所的部分，原則上我們會在他出所……，因為他有時候是當庭釋放、責付，我們會儘快地聯繫他的學校；在少年矯正學校的部分，比如說他是出去就學，我們會跟當地的教育主管機關聯繫。如果是就業……"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長，我知道，我現在的意思是說如果滿員了、額滿了，那你知道要怎麼處理嗎？你有配套嗎？整個少觀所跟矯正學校滿員的話呢？"],["周署長輝煌：所謂滿員是說收容人數爆滿嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：安置人數啊！有限啊！整個人數爆滿啦！"],["周署長輝煌：安置的部分，我們會跟當地政府或是更保聯繫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我希望未來我們以更強力度關注這些議題，可能人數會提升，我們應該要因應這樣子的部分，我想教育部真的……我還是要提醒一下廳長，剛剛我們提到有些工作是教育部的，但教育部應該要負責的是尚未觸法的、預防犯罪的教育，但是如果有些孩子已經受到保護管束，司法部門應該要幫忙協助教育部一起關注。我想這些問題都是串接在一起的，所以今天召集人才會召集大家在這邊聯席。另外我要跟教育部再說，教育部針對中小學目前有沒有辦理情緒跟溝通的教育？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，目前在12年國教課綱裡面，不管是在健體領域或是我們相關的輔導課程裡面，確實這個部分是一個重點，因為也發現到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這個部分我們非常的重視，不管是倫理道德、禮義廉恥，甚至是情緒與溝通的教育，我希望我們教育部應該要再關注這樣的議題。而且根據學校輔導法規定，高中每12班需設置1個輔導老師，國中每15班設置1名，如果學校有司法跟曝險的少年，這樣的輔導量能你覺得夠嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個情形因為我們現在也都在持續的設置當中，未來我們在修的學輔法裡面，有特別再談到不是輔導教師，剛才那個是輔導教師的編制……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["潘部長文忠：還有專輔人員，就是各類的部分會在後續修法再擴充有關專輔這方面的人力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想這個東西我們都非常注意，所以我還是最後要跟您再提一次，因為上一次我覺得你有回應良善的溝通，我們還是想要繼續追夜光天使的進度……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分國教署跟臺中教育局正在談怎麼樣試辦。"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺中OK嗎？因為這個部分我們要跟這些有心人士、特殊的團體跟黑道來拔河搶孩子，如果關注國中孩子課後的相關環境、生活，我覺得夜光天使真的能夠在臺中試辦。現在經費有沒有問題？"],["潘部長文忠：經費不是問題，這個詳細的細節，署長……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以您願意承諾我臺中會試辦？"],["潘部長文忠：署長會跟您報告目前的進度。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那臺中你願意試辦嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為當時委員提到一下子要擴充到暑假或國中的部分，我們希望能夠有一個試辦點，當時就說臺中市如果願意，我們就是跟他合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝你，我想我得到我要的答案，我們一起來為我們的孩子努力，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.269718750000003,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.704093750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.73721875,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.30596875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.38159375,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.12409375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.794093750000002,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.50284375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.70534375,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.75596875,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.11034375,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.31284375,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.869718750000004,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.970343750000005,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.66096875,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.25534375,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.39034375,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.40346875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.62471875,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.21159375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.84596875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.07346875000002,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.13096875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.55034375,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":164.93346875,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.54909375,"end":176.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.06221875,"end":188.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.62596875,"end":198.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":199.12221875,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.16409375,"end":218.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.05159375000002,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":224.26596875,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.88596875000002,"end":260.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.31159375000001,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.80034375,"end":281.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.03784375000004,"end":281.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.04596875000004,"end":290.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":288.89721875000004,"end":293.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.72784375000003,"end":298.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":295.90034375000005,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.12159375000005,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.37159375000005,"end":339.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.15096875,"end":340.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":339.85971875,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.21659375,"end":361.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.56534375,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.94909375000003,"end":362.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":371.75346875,"end":374.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.82096875,"end":372.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.76596875,"end":388.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.20221875000004,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.54784375,"end":417.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.47159375,"end":393.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.85596875000005,"end":450.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":450.22221875,"end":462.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.05596875000003,"end":479.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":479.26409375000003,"end":495.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.07159375000003,"end":500.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":499.80096875000004,"end":503.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.13409375000003,"end":502.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.49659375000005,"end":510.01034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.64346875,"end":509.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":509.75721875000005,"end":513.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.7734687500001,"end":514.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.6003437500001,"end":541.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.4740937500001,"end":545.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":546.57846875,"end":548.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.00846875,"end":551.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":551.38784375,"end":555.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.9609687500001,"end":561.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":561.10784375,"end":608.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.9822187500001,"end":613.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.0109687500001,"end":622.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":621.80721875,"end":645.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.1909687500001,"end":623.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.64221875,"end":624.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.63471875,"end":668.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":668.65221875,"end":679.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.75596875,"end":683.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":683.0634687500001,"end":683.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":683.6372187500001,"end":702.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.7122187500001,"end":689.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9822187500001,"end":689.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.9778437500001,"end":691.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.0790937500001,"end":691.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.3684687500001,"end":702.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.67221875,"end":723.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":706.36784375,"end":707.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":723.90096875,"end":727.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.9678437500002,"end":728.98034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.283,"end":22.941,"text":"我們請登記第8號的羅廷瑋羅委員好 謝謝主席我想有請潘部長還有周署長假政署周署長還有我們的謝庭長、郭副司長"},{"start":24.431,"end":48.268,"text":"好,那麻煩部長、署長還有廳長還有郭副司長,謝謝委員好不好意思,我問題一個一個問啦所以有些可能稍微等待一下好,請問部長喔因為我剛剛有跟你詢問目前多少保護管束的人在學校那好像不太知道嘛,對不對那個詳細的數據可能在我們"},{"start":49.669,"end":73.067,"text":"沒關係,那我可以請問一下這個司法部分但是我會覺得很奇怪啊就是說因為他已經保護管束了他回到校園也就是在我們的教育部管轄範圍我覺得教育部應該要有權責去了解到底有多少的孩子已經回到了學校那你個人認為啦這些學校回到學校以後適不適合繼續留在學校"},{"start":74.027,"end":87.737,"text":"委員關鍵這個議題也是我們前一段時間一直在跨部會、跨院在努力的部分就是因為現在如果涉及到暴險少年或司法少年那在他有個過程一個就是調查過程"},{"start":88.558,"end":88.718,"text":"主席"},{"start":113.288,"end":113.708,"text":"這樣聽起來好像不太適合嘛 對不對"},{"start":134.104,"end":148.222,"text":"這樣才會更加委員所關心的適不適合回到學校這應該是大家要重整的去做客觀的條件上的討論跟決定好那但是我覺得對於剛剛我想問第一個問題就是保護管束的人多少在學校"},{"start":148.743,"end":175.961,"text":"我覺得從今天開始以後我覺得教育部有責任去做一個串接去了解有多少的孩子回到了校園我覺得這個是教育部應該要關注的一個議題我想我們跨部會之間會來做這方面數字上的聯繫跟掌握好那我想請問一下司法院現在少年關務所跟矯正學校對於安置所內的一個少年都如何進行輔導成效如何再犯的機率你們有評估過嗎"},{"start":178.083,"end":180.064,"text":"那目前成效呢 成效如何"},{"start":201.172,"end":224.986,"text":"目前在每個案子大概法院大概都有在take care這些案件對包括這個安置機構的他也是在社區當中比如說臺北的孩子然後被安置到花蓮那花蓮地方政府就會收到法院的通知那就要去安排這些他的就學跟他就業甚至於說有些孩子會在這個就是就學期間接受心理智商這些大概都有一個安置輔導計畫"},{"start":226.107,"end":244.286,"text":"我覺得個人你回答了很多但是都沒有切中我們的要點我覺得就是少年保護的執行力就是不髒讓我們覺得這樣子的事件會層出不窮在這些少年離開少關所或者是矯正學校以後地方法院的少關人我們看到他的人數也真的不足"},{"start":245.027,"end":260.431,"text":"司法院在自己的報告也寫道新北校園暴力事件的發生顯示實務上多數少年法院調查保護是人力不足聽長我想問一下人力不足這件事情是什麼問題的在人力不足的情況之下要如何做好輔導的功能"},{"start":260.851,"end":261.692,"text":"市辦計畫什麼時候會結束?"},{"start":282.111,"end":285.233,"text":"司法院要成立新的少年法院這個會不會與地方法院的少年及家事法院有跌床駕屋的一個問題"},{"start":311.135,"end":311.195,"text":"主席"},{"start":331.642,"end":350.336,"text":"聽講我覺得法院不是越來越多越好啦那如何能夠強化我覺得重點還是如何承接這些少年啦當然當然我想新北國中這個戈井案加艾倫城收容與少年關務所故意少年事件處理法應該由少年保護館進行專責社區的一個處遇但為什麼沒有留意"},{"start":351.637,"end":370.969,"text":"跟委員報告這個個案據我們的了解其實保護官也都有跟學校的生肖組長還有輔導老師那其實跟學校端也都有開過相關的會議對但是我們有少年保護官這個部分有專責處理這個部分可是我就覺得沒有留意到那廳長我覺得這位少年回到學校以後他並沒有被制度給接住難道他被放棄了嗎"},{"start":371.969,"end":387.577,"text":"還是都交給學校全部都交給教育部跟委員報告這段時間他從少關有出來其實就是在保護管束期間就會有一個保護官跟學校去討論如何的讓少年在學校可以接受輔導還有保護官的這樣的一個監督跟他的一個輔導計畫的進行"},{"start":389.518,"end":390.499,"text":"政府到底給這些處罰少年什麼樣的資源?你可以簡單說明嗎?"},{"start":417.907,"end":435.12,"text":"跟委員報告．除了剛說的2月1日事辦計畫之外．我們其實最近從事情發生以來．我們也跟行政院開過三次會議．那13號更是跟行政院兩位政委到司法院．達成一個兩月的決議．那對於將來教育部的這個．多元漸進式的中立教育措施．"},{"start":435.62,"end":459.299,"text":"那將來其實從案子一細數在法院之後就會由我們的調查官跟保護官跟學校去進行這些相關個案的一個聯繫跟討論其實過去也一直也都是這樣可是將來我們的增補人力之後會把這個部分做的密度更高人力真的不足啦資源真的有限啦那再來就是少婦會嘛現在少婦園社工能不能夠因應轄內的一個需求我覺得這個部分"},{"start":460.28,"end":461.741,"text":"應該是不夠,那怎麼去做一個輔導?"},{"start":479.693,"end":494.714,"text":"我另外因為都有加上台我就一併一起講啦我覺得最後還有一個要值得討論的少關所跟矯正學校現在安置人數有限如果安置人數都已經滿員了要如何安置這些人這也是我們應該值得去探究的一個問題啊"},{"start":496.584,"end":497.665,"text":"有聽到問題可以直接回應沒關係"},{"start":514.816,"end":538.247,"text":"報告委員如果就少關所的部分原則上我們會在他出所因為他有時候是當庭釋放擇戶讓我們會盡快的聯繫他的學校那在少角校的部分角證學校的部分我們比如說他是出去需要就學我們會跟當地的教育主管機關聯繫"},{"start":540.529,"end":555.097,"text":"我現在的意思是說如果滿園了而滿了那你這要怎麼處理你有配套嗎整個哨關所跟矯正學校滿園的話所謂滿園是說暴滿嗎安置人數啊有限啊那整個人數暴滿啊"},{"start":555.984,"end":580.923,"text":"安置的部分我們會跟當地政府或是更保來做聯繫好我希望喔未來我們再更強力度的去關注這些議題的時候可能會有人數提升那我們應該要因應這樣子的部分我想教育部真的我們也要知道我還是要提醒一下庭長喔剛剛我們提到有些工作有些是教育部的但教育部他們應該要負責的是尚未處法的預犯"},{"start":581.664,"end":583.505,"text":"教育部中小學目前有沒有辦理情緒跟溝通的一個教育"},{"start":609.302,"end":626.368,"text":"根本報告目前在12年國教課綱裡面不管是在健體領域或是我們相關的輔導課程裡面確實有把這一個部分是一個重點因為也發現到我想這部分我們非常的重視不管是倫理、道德、禮義、廉恥"},{"start":627.008,"end":627.028,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋"},{"start":645.92,"end":651.204,"text":"根本報告這個情形因為我們現在都在持續的設置當中那對於未來我們在修的這個協會輔法裡面有特別在談到不是輔導教師剛才那個是輔導教師的編制還有專輔人員就是各類的部分會在後續修法的這部分有在擴充有關專輔的這方面的人力"},{"start":668.7,"end":682.315,"text":"好我想這個東西我們都非常注意所以我還是最後要跟您再提一次因為上一次我覺得您有回應一個良善的一個溝通我們還是想要繼續追夜光天使的一個進度委員這部分國教室有跟台中教育局正在談怎麼樣事辦"},{"start":683.717,"end":701.778,"text":"OK嗎?因為我想這個部分我們要跟這些有心人士、特殊的團體跟黑道來拔河搶孩子。如果關注國中孩子在課後以後他們的一個相關環境、生活。我覺得夜光天使真的能夠事辦在台中。現在經費有沒有問題?"},{"start":703.259,"end":703.279,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aecf8699991a656991b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a64b664da36d5803b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:58:29 - 11:09:55","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:09:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:58:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時58分）謝謝主席。請黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我們之前都討論過很多次了，今天的主題是ETF，我想就臺灣為什麼ETF這麼熱絡或者是現在這麼熱絡，你個人的看法、它的原因是什麼？為什麼現在這個時間這麼熱絡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一個，因為這幾年臺股市場是漲的。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，臺股是漲的，另外是不是也證明臺灣很多民眾其實缺乏很好的投資工具或者他的錢不知道要做什麼樣的投資，然後會在這個時間特別往這個部分移動？"],["黃主任委員天牧：希望能夠有比定存好一點收益的商品，相對安全，但這一次我們發覺，其實它有些廣告有一些誤導的地方，這跟網紅在中間有一些關係。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，主委，其實ETF在國內資本市場占的比例並不大，但是它整體規模也頂多占臺股的1%或2%，整體來說，應該不至於造成非常非常嚴重的狀況，可是看起來最近的狀況已經變成一種全民風潮，就像剛剛很多委員提到的，很多人連房子都拿去貸款來買ETF。同樣的就是我們之前談到，也是因為臺灣有非常多的人財金素養並不是很夠，對於相關投資的判斷也不是很瞭解，另外一種不好的就是被投資詐騙，現在好一點的就是去買ETF，我想問金管會，對於臺灣這些投顧公司繼續推出ETF是採取鼓勵還是防堵的措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是投信的選擇，我們沒有防堵也沒有鼓勵，只要你覺得這個商品適合市場，我們會審查。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們是採取只要符合規範就可以自由推出，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前來講是。"],["黃委員珊珊：活絡資本市場我想是金管會的職責，民眾也希望能夠有機會投資到比較好的產品，但重點在於，從你針對這次ETF熱潮提出的幾個監理方案看起來，就是這個市場現在是混亂的，第一、強化KYC，表示原來沒有做到；第二、加強投資教育宣導，表示原來的宣導不夠；第三、有關ETF的廣告規範，這就是你剛剛講現在最嚴重的是廣告問題；第四、平準金的規範。顯然你們是不是在這場ETF熱潮中發現了這些問題？之前有做過哪些處置？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，平準金其實今年1月就開始做，其他所謂KYC、KYP，我們寫不是說以前沒有做，而是覺得更應該要讓投資人在風潮的時候認清他買的是什麼東西。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以表示主委並不是要加強嚴管、加強控管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個意思其實是說，很多制度現在就有，只看有沒有具體落實，除了網紅的部分之外。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，網紅的部分就是我今天要問的，網紅的部分按照相關的投信投顧法，如果有誇大或不實，其實是有相關罰則的，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：問題是它不是投信投顧。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這就是一個新興的市場。"],["黃委員珊珊：那它現在適用哪個法規來處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：公平會前兩天有發布一個規定，有處理，現在就是要看投信跟網紅的連結能不能再找到一個關係去處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在這些網紅不是只有代言這些投資商品。"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：他還代言虛幣，他還代言各種的投資啊，就像我剛剛講的，我們的民眾需要投資工具跟標的，但是他們找不到好的，就會受到這些影響。第二、他就可能不是被詐騙，就是去投資這些可能比較不適合他的商品。所以廣告才是這個案子最大的癥結點，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就這個個案我認同委員的想法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以怎麼樣把這個廣告規範搞清楚？第二、網紅代言ETF，如果發生了剛剛講的這些問題，他不被處罰，那要處罰投信投顧嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，現在就請公會再去討論怎麼去處理。總而言之，如果……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在還要討論？所以它不屬於投信投顧業？可是投信投顧法規定投信投顧事業從事廣告公開說明的相關限制，要主管機關定之；然後第七十條之一規定，不是投信投顧業不可以有任何廣告的行為。這兩條法條其實滿清楚的，只是非屬投信投顧業做這個廣告，你們現在的罰則看起來在法裡面是一個很大的疏漏，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，所以要針對現在新興的這樣一個社群媒體的力量，看是不是可以創造投信跟它的連結，由投信去負責任。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的問題就在於相關的法規中間的漏洞，你什麼時候要把它補起來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我怎麼找都找不到罰他們的法條，表示你們也找不到，因為找不到所以無法可罰，所以他就繼續在各種社群媒體上面宣揚這樣的東西？主委，這不是法治國家應該有的行為吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，但至少公平會3月8號有……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果推到公平會就表示金管會失職呀！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不是說公平會做了，我們就不做，而是說我們怎麼樣有一個邏輯推理……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個絕對不會到公平會而已，這個絕對是在金管會的轄下你所主管的業務，他們碰到這種東西，主委，很簡單，如果它是連結，那我們就必須要管理，如果它不是投信投顧業，違反了這個規定，我們就必須要處置。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是啊，委員，我們就是要創造……我們會處理投信投顧。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們什麼時候要把這個漏洞補起來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們6月以前就會把它補起來。"],["黃委員珊珊：會正式的入法嗎？還是修法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：通常我們監理上先從自律規範開始做起，循序漸進。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，自律規範是一個；第二個修法，我也希望你能夠往前邁進，因為違反第七十條之一目前沒有罰則。","其次，如果這些要罰，假設我們找到罰則了，現在這些網紅不只代言ETF，他還代言虛幣，虛幣的部分有沒有罰則？也沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個代言就跟銷售在法律關係上還是不一樣的。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在因為虛擬貨幣是在證期局，但是它到底是什麼，現在還沒有個定義，你們把它定位成商品，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：它是金融商品。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是它也會跟網路的網紅進行結合，前面JPEX的事件也是這樣。所以這些跟業者合作的網紅，我們目前為止有任何的處置方法嗎？代言虛幣的部分。"],["黃主任委員天牧：虛幣部分目前我們沒有，目前是只管平臺這個部分，但虛幣部分沒有，網紅沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以網紅代言虛幣完全無法可管？可以這樣說？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前沒有這方面的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他代言的話，他算不算投信投顧？不算？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它不是有價證券。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以它什麼都不是，所以它又是一個新存在而不知道如何管理的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們要訂專法，今年9月以後會有一個專法的草案出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要趕快立專法，那現在這種青黃不接的時候我們該怎麼辦呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們現在有洗錢防制法。"],["黃委員珊珊：我是民眾，我看到網紅代言就跑去買了，就像剛剛很多委員在說，大家都是因為這樣子跑去買的，甚至把房子拿去貸款去買，但他是希望能夠有好的投資管道。現在無法可管，這段時間的空窗期我們要怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，容我跟您報告，虛幣跟ETF可能不能同時類比，ETF是我們核准的商品，虛幣是高投資……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是我的意思是兩個都要有人管。"],["黃主任委員天牧：虛幣是金管會在管，但是我們是管平臺。網紅部分，我在思考也許看看今年訂的專法有沒有可能對這一塊去著墨，看看國際間的慣例。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為在歐盟已經針對所謂的代言有相關的規範。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，請委員提供我們參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些目前為止其實是可以往前走的，在歐盟的法案裡面，對網紅已經有相關限制，放在市場操縱禁止條款中，所以外國是有案例的。主委，我希望這兩件事情，不管是哪一種，我們都希望把現在市場上這種網紅代言，可能會造成人民不瞭解相關商品內容，我覺得至少金管會要出手干預，否則就像之前發生的很多事件，雷曼兄弟那個時候也是如此，銀行在賣怎麼可能賣假的東西？但是因為廣告太誘人了。","最後，我想問一個問題，最近有營業員來陳情，就是有關證交法，如果違約交割的話，因為目前投資人很多都是透過手機app下單，跟營業員其實沒什麼關係，如果違約交割，即使責任全歸客戶，但是如果沒有辦法追到客戶，目前營業員還是要負責任，可是在目前已經手機下單的時候，我不明白跟營業員到底還有什麼關係。這個部分是不是可以請主委也來做一些相關的修正或討論？因為營業員認為他從來沒見過這個客戶，可是這個客戶違約交割，他要負相關的責任。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員提示的問題，我們再跟公會這邊瞭解，或者你有個案可不可以交代給我們來處理？"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是現有的合約，所以我希望你們能夠做一些修正，我再把資料給主委，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.95409375,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.9790937500000005,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.637218750000002,"end":8.704718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.094718750000002,"end":27.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.094093750000003,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.21971875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.299718750000004,"end":36.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.46846875,"end":35.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.29534375,"end":36.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.90284375,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.071593750000005,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.99971875,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.142843750000004,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.674093750000004,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.69096875,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.27909375,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.66721875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.15221875,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.16909375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.53471875000001,"end":77.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.94284375000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.88346875,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.90034375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.57909375,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.26596875,"end":104.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.68971875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.24034375000001,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.87096875,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.88784375,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.37284375000002,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.47721875000002,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.92346875,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.75846875000002,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.02409375000002,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.42284375,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.96659375000002,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.47221875000002,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.26034375,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.17096875000001,"end":213.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.95096875000002,"end":215.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.32221875000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.37284375000002,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.30221875,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.01471875000001,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.15784375,"end":241.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.48221875000002,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.31659375,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.05034375000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.76721875000004,"end":257.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.24346875000003,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.81159375000004,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.84784375000004,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.38284375,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.97721875,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.02784375000005,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.24721875,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.89596875,"end":297.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.43159375000005,"end":300.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.81096875000003,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.39721875000004,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.70471875000004,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.72159375,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.15909375,"end":330.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.03409375,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.83034375,"end":338.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.84721875,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.97659375,"end":348.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.14534375,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.97221875,"end":355.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.58284375,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.51409375000003,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.03909375,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.69284375,"end":384.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.19471875000005,"end":391.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.06284375,"end":399.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.78284375000004,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.97221875,"end":404.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.82846875,"end":405.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.80721875,"end":410.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.64596875,"end":415.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.40534375000004,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.91534375000003,"end":418.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.37909375000004,"end":419.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.20596875,"end":419.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.49284375,"end":419.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.54346875000005,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.12971875000005,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.53409375,"end":428.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.99346875000003,"end":438.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.25346875,"end":439.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.10971875,"end":442.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.59471875,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.45096875,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.10034375000004,"end":449.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.32784375000006,"end":449.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.93534375,"end":450.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.42034375000003,"end":452.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.58471875000004,"end":453.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.74909375000004,"end":454.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.06096875000003,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.03909375,"end":469.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.83096875,"end":470.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.20221875000004,"end":472.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.24409375000005,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.57284375,"end":474.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.72284375000004,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.97159375,"end":488.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.78159375,"end":488.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.83221875000004,"end":495.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.49784375,"end":498.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.20659375,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.99096875000004,"end":499.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.04159375,"end":501.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.89784375000005,"end":505.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.51721875000004,"end":507.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.06971875000005,"end":514.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.48284375000003,"end":511.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.65096875,"end":515.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.66784375,"end":519.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.3803437500001,"end":523.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.89909375,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.79284375,"end":527.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.5984687499999,"end":534.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.49596875,"end":537.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9890937499999,"end":545.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.75159375,"end":552.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.1853437500001,"end":551.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.1640937500001,"end":557.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.8303437500001,"end":556.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.7453437500001,"end":569.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.49034375,"end":584.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.0928437499999,"end":576.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.29096875,"end":577.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.86784375,"end":601.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.3290937500001,"end":604.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.0672187499999,"end":606.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.23159375,"end":607.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.1047187500001,"end":609.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.9272187500001,"end":612.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.9140937500001,"end":614.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.39471875,"end":617.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.5672187499999,"end":619.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.46159375,"end":621.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.67221875,"end":623.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.1484687500001,"end":632.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.1640937500001,"end":635.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.2690937500001,"end":637.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.88909375,"end":643.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.04846875,"end":655.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.1140937499999,"end":661.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.6828437500001,"end":663.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.91034375,"end":667.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.70284375,"end":670.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.10346875,"end":670.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.6940937500001,"end":670.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.7278437500001,"end":671.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.2803437500002,"end":675.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.9422187499999,"end":678.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.77721875,"end":681.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.9665937500001,"end":684.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.3715937500001,"end":686.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.21,"end":9.033,"text":"謝謝主席 請黃主委有請黃主委委員好是主委我想我們之前都討論過很多次那今天的主題是ETF我想就臺灣為什麼ETF這麼熱絡或者是現在這麼熱絡你個人的看法它的原因是什麼"},{"start":35.369,"end":59.775,"text":"因為為什麼現在這個時間因為這幾年臺股的這個市場是漲的對 臺股是漲的但是是不是另外也是證明說臺灣很多的民眾他其實我們缺乏很好的投資工具或者是他對於他的錢不知道要做什麼樣的投資然後會在這個時間特別往這個部分移動"},{"start":62.117,"end":75.715,"text":"希望能夠比有定存好一點的收益的商品相對安全然後呢但這一次我們發覺其實因為它有些廣告有一些誤導的地方就跟網紅在中間有一些關係對,所以"},{"start":77.998,"end":103.973,"text":"主委我想這個ETF其實在國內的資本市場的比例並不大但是它整體規模也僅多佔台股的1%、2%整體來說它應該不至於會造成好像非常非常嚴重的狀況可是看起來最近的狀況已經變成一種全民風潮就像剛剛我們的很多委員同仁說很多人連房子都去貸款"},{"start":104.713,"end":131.36,"text":"特別來買ETF那同樣的就是我們之前談到也是因為臺灣我們非常多的人我們的財經素養並不是很夠我們對於相關投資的判斷也不是很了解所以另外一種就是不好的就是被投資詐騙掉了那現在好一點的我們就是去買ETF我想問金管會你對於臺灣這些投股公司繼續推出ETF是採取鼓勵還是防堵的措施"},{"start":132.932,"end":136.715,"text":"所以你們是採取只要符合我的規範你們就可以自由的推入對吧"},{"start":148.624,"end":166.632,"text":"活絡資本市場是金管會的職責民眾也希望能夠有機會投資到比較好的產品重點在於從你這次推出的ETF熱潮提出的四幾個監理方案看起來就是表示這個市場現在是混亂的"},{"start":168.553,"end":182.722,"text":"1強化KYC表示原來沒有做到2加強投資教育宣導5表示原來的宣導不夠3ETF的廣告規範這就是你剛剛講現在最嚴重的是這個廣告的問題4評準金的規範顯然是不是在這場的ETF熱潮中發現了這些問題那之前有做過哪些的處置"},{"start":195.987,"end":197.848,"text":"所以表示主委我們並不是要加強嚴管"},{"start":214.994,"end":242.505,"text":"加強控管其實我跟你這個意思其實是說很多制度現在就有有沒有具體落實除了網紅的部分之外網紅的部分這就是我今天要問的網紅的部分按照相關的投信投顧法它其實如果說有誇大或不實其實是有相關法則的對吧是問題它不是投信投顧所以那它是什麼這就是一個新興的一個市場那它現在是用哪個法規來處理"},{"start":244.52,"end":268.94,"text":"公平法前兩天有發布一個規定有處理那現在就是要看投信跟網紅的連結能不能再找到一個關係去處理現在都是這些網紅他不是只有代言這些投資商品他還代言虛幣啊他還代言各種的投資啊因為我剛剛講的我們的民眾需要投資的工具跟標的但是他們"},{"start":269.901,"end":285.553,"text":"找不到好的就會受到這些影響第二個他就可能不是被詐騙就是去投資這些可能比較不適合他的商品所以廣告才是這個案子最大的癥結點不是嗎"},{"start":287.134,"end":299.458,"text":"就這個個案我覺得委員您的指示是我認同您的想法所以怎麼樣把這個廣告規範搞清楚第二個網紅代言ETF如果他發生了剛剛講的這些問題他不被處罰那我們罰頭信頭顧嗎"},{"start":305.928,"end":328.934,"text":"我跟委員報告現在就在請公會再去討論怎麼去處理總而言之如果所以現在還要討論所以它不屬於投心投顧業可是我們在投心投顧法裡面投心投顧事業從事廣告公開說明的相關的限制要主管機關定制然後70條之一不是投心投顧業不可以有任何廣告的行為這兩條法其實蠻清楚的"},{"start":331.155,"end":355.477,"text":"只是非屬投信投物業做了這個廣告你們現在的法則看起來在法裡面是一個很大的疏漏不是嗎對 所以要針對現在新興的這樣一個社群媒體的力量看是不是可以創造投信跟它的連結由投信去負責任所以現在的是問題就在於說我們相關的法規這中間的漏洞你什麼時候要把它補起來"},{"start":356.618,"end":383.635,"text":"報告委員因為政情局因為我怎麼找都找不到法他們的法條所以表示你們也找不到那因為找不到所以無法可法所以他就繼續在各種不管是任何社群媒體上面繼續的宣揚這樣的東西主委啊這不是我們現代社會應該法治國家應該有的行為吧是但至少公平會有3月8號如果推到公平會就表示經濟會失職啊不是"},{"start":385.256,"end":407.305,"text":"我不是說公平會我們就不做而是說我們怎麼樣去有一個這個絕對不會到公平會去而已啊這個絕對是在金管會的轄下裡面你所主管的業務他們碰到這種東西主委很簡單如果他是連結那我們就必須要管理如果他不是這個鏡頭顧業他違反了這個規定我們就必須要處置"},{"start":411.704,"end":411.984,"text":"好 第二個 如果"},{"start":441.342,"end":454.18,"text":"這些要法假設我們找到法則了現在這些網紅不只代理這個ETF他還代言虛幣虛幣的部分有沒有法則也沒有"},{"start":456.447,"end":459.85,"text":"這個代言就跟銷售是有還是在法律關係上是不一樣的"},{"start":486.787,"end":504.995,"text":"代言虛幣的部分虛幣部分目前我們沒有目前是根據資管平台這個部分但虛幣部分沒有所以網紅代言虛幣完全無法可管目前沒有這方面的如果他代言的話他算不算投信投股啊不算"},{"start":506.53,"end":523.269,"text":"因為它不是有加證券是 所以它什麼都不是所以它是一個又是一個新存在而不知道如何管理的我們要訂專法今年9月份會有一個專法的所以要趕快立專法那現在的這種青黃不接的時候我們該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":524.847,"end":536.727,"text":"我是民眾我看到網紅代言我就跑去買了就像剛剛很多委員在說大家都是因為這樣子跑去買的甚至把房子拿去貸款跑去買"},{"start":538.018,"end":557.592,"text":"但他希望能夠有好的投資管道所以現在無法可管這段時間的空窗期我們要怎麼處理報告員容我跟您報告虛幣跟ETF可能不能同時類比ETF是我們核准的商品我同意但是我的意思是說兩個都要有人管"},{"start":559.023,"end":568.592,"text":"虛弊是金管會在管但是我們是管平台但是網紅部分我在思考也許看看今年這個專法有沒有可能對這一塊去著落看看國際間的慣例"},{"start":570.506,"end":597.234,"text":"因為在歐盟已經針對所謂的這個代言他們有相關的規範除了說這些目前為止其實是可以往前走的在歐盟的法案裡面對網紅已經有相關限制放在市場操縱禁止條款中所以外國是有案例的所以主委我希望這兩件事情不管是哪一種我們都希望把現在市場上面這種網紅代言"},{"start":599.215,"end":623.092,"text":"但是他可能會造成人民會不了解相關商品內容的部分我覺得至少金管會要出手干預啊否則就像很多之前發生很多雷曼兄弟那個時候也是如此銀行在賣怎麼可能賣假的東西但是因為廣告太誘人了最後一個就是我想最後一個問題"},{"start":625.202,"end":639.338,"text":"我們最近有一個營業員來陳情就是有關政交法如果違約交割的話然後目前為止因為很多都是手機APP在下單跟營業員其實沒什麼關係但是如果違約交割"},{"start":644.096,"end":664.293,"text":"即使責任全歸客戶的話如果沒有辦法追到客戶目前營業員還是要負責任可是這個目前為止在手機已經下單的時候我不明白為什麼跟營業員到底還有什麼關係所以這個部分是不是可以請主委這邊也來做一些相關的修正或討論因為營業員認為說他從來沒見過這個客戶可是這個客戶"},{"start":668.755,"end":671.378,"text":"委員交割他要負相關的責任"}]}},{"id":"149977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a02363da47ef54e8d5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a621b00f39ec1a9b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:58:19 - 11:08:04","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":585,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:08:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:58:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時58分）首先謝謝我們溫馨、溫暖的召委昆澤委員。是不是請林次長？"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳委員雪生：次長早安。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：首先恭喜您榮升次長。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：也謝謝次長在民航局局長任內，對我們馬祖地方的協助。"],["林次長國顯：是，應該的、應該的。"],["陳委員雪生：我也代表縣長、議長還有全體的鄉親對你表示感謝……"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：國顯局長非常優秀，所以部長提升你為次長也應該的。另外請問一下次長，公路局是不是你的業管？"],["林次長國顯：公路局啊？公路局不是，但是我以前有當過路政司司長。"],["陳委員雪生：因為剛才我聽林沛祥委員發言時講到停車的問題，我們現在全國大概有800、900萬輛的汽車，我們的停車場有多少，你知道嗎？"],["林次長國顯：應該遠少於這個數字。"],["陳委員雪生：停車場只有200萬，200萬裡面還包含了室內的停車場，我助理講說這個空間柯文哲市長上任以後把所有的停車格都畫出來了，除了停車格之外全部都是紅線，紅線就是要開單的意思啦，我們警察也非常的負責任，我覺得警察在管治安嘛，就連晚上10點到凌晨都還在開單，所以次長回去檢討一下好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝次長，你先請回。"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：請你上來，主要是對你表示感謝。是不是請主席請一下氣象署署長？"],["主席：請署長。"],["陳委員雪生：署長早安。"],["程署長家平：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：這是我自你上任以後第一次對你質詢。請問一下，最近馬祖你在北竿島、莒光島成立兩座雷達站，我請問一下署長，你們這兩座雷達站的興建及土地的取得都是國產署嗎？有沒有跟縣政府做過簡報或是跟縣長報告？"],["程署長家平：有。"],["陳委員雪生：縣長知道這個事嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，知道。"],["陳委員雪生：知道？"],["程署長家平：其實在一年以前就已經陸陸續續在做相關的報告，我們最近也安排兩次行程特別……"],["陳委員雪生：你們的藍圖一定要跟縣長做簡報，否則會影響到整個都市計畫。"],["程署長家平：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你要怎麼做啊？你看馬祖北竿，你做了這個……當然設計我看過了，是滿好的，是以黑嘴端鳳頭燕鷗這個藍圖來做的，它面積大概需要多少？"],["程署長家平：你是說土地面積嗎？"],["陳委員雪生：對，它的基地面積。"],["程署長家平：基地面積現在是20公尺乘上10公尺，就是底座。"],["陳委員雪生：預定讓幾個人駐紮在那個地方？"],["程署長家平：目前雷達站是一個無人雷達站的設計。"],["陳委員雪生：無人的啊？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有人的啊？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那莒光的呢？"],["程署長家平：也是一樣，都是無人的雷達站。"],["陳委員雪生：也是無人的雷達站啊？"],["程署長家平：是，目前我們在水利署支持的五座防災降雨雷達，其實也都是無人雷達站，所以無人雷達站的相關運作……"],["陳委員雪生：它的聯外道路的有二百多公尺，有跟阿兵哥的接在一起嗎？"],["程署長家平：有用到軍方的地，就是芹山的營區和馬防部02觀測所，的確是在軍方的……"],["陳委員雪生：署長，以後功課準備好，因為早上我已經提示你了，我會問這個問題，我提示你了所以你們的同仁應該要告訴署長，不要讓署長上台以後有些問題回答不出來。它的功能主要是什麼呢？"],["程署長家平：C頻段的雷達主要是針對降雨，另一個是毫米波的雷達，主要是針對霧，因為金馬地區霧的情形其實非常嚴重，我們也希望要加強金馬地區對於霧的觀測，所以不僅降雨，也包含了霧。"],["陳委員雪生：下雨跟霧？"],["程署長家平：對，降雨和霧。"],["陳委員雪生：它一陣來、一陣去，你偵測出來對我們地區有什麼……你會提供飛航的情報，還有海上的船隻，提醒他們注意還是怎麼樣？"],["程署長家平：是，這裡面相關的應用包含兩個，一個是監測，一個是預報，預報當然主要是早期希望提供相關的資訊給相關的民眾；監測的部分主要是希望掌握譬如說霧的相關程度，也知道霧到什麼時候會散。"],["陳委員雪生：這個可以……"],["程署長家平：對不起。"],["陳委員雪生：不讓人家參觀嗎？"],["程署長家平：可以參觀啊！我們並沒有不讓參觀。"],["陳委員雪生：參觀的時候，如果有人去破壞怎麼辦呢？"],["程署長家平：參觀一定是我們有伴隨的參觀，因為目前是無人站的設計，所以裡面未來會有相關的保全系統，以及會考慮讓保全人員進駐。"],["陳委員雪生：不可能，你讓人家上去參觀的話，任意人都可以進去呀！"],["程署長家平：參觀的部分一定會有我們的人伴隨，不會開放任意的人進去參觀。"],["陳委員雪生：你們沒有人啊！怎麼伴隨？"],["程署長家平：就是由我們馬祖氣象站的人員。"],["陳委員雪生：這不是無人的氣象站嗎？"],["程署長家平：我們馬祖有有人的氣象站，雷達站的部分是無人，所以如果有人要去參觀雷達站的部分，一定是我們馬祖氣象站的同仁去支援。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，你為什麼不做在南竿、為什麼做在北竿呢？你南竿的氣象站有四、五個人在裡面啊！那裡的位子也很大啊！你不做在那邊監測這個霧，而放在北竿有什麼意圖嗎？"],["程署長家平：主要是地點的……"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有軍事的用途在裡面？"],["程署長家平：沒有，沒有軍事的用途。"],["陳委員雪生：完全沒有？"],["程署長家平：主要是在地點的尋找，因為我們有好幾個地方在討論，在什麼樣的地方比較適合設置，當然也牽涉到用地取得。"],["陳委員雪生：這個是不是要提供給美軍來用還是什麼呢？"],["程署長家平：它純粹是民間用途、氣象用途。"],["陳委員雪生：國軍要不要用？國軍可以用嗎？"],["程署長家平：從氣象的觀點來看，相關的資料他們當然可以做氣象用，可是裡面沒有任何的軍事用途。"],["陳委員雪生：這個很難講，我也不相信。還有一個很重要的問題，國顯次長，你可能還要上來一下。最近大陸在莒光那個地方的周圍已經很近了，他們在做風機，風機是什麼？就是離岸風電，這個圖沒有放上來。做了幾百根，但是最靠近莒光的那一段，我聽說是中國鋼鐵標到的，很大、大大喔！我請問一下，你是民航局局長出來的，我們的飛機是從莒光那邊進場，有沒有問題？有沒有影響？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，資料是還在掌握中，目前是馬祖外海的風機第一區還在做環境影響評估。"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有問題？"],["林次長國顯：其他的部分，未來主要應該是航線的部分會影響，就是船的部分可能有些會被調整，也需要調整。高度的部分，因為目前還沒有很明確……"],["陳委員雪生：飛機有沒有影響？"],["林次長國顯：飛機如果有影響，必須要調整儀航程序，目前的資料……"],["陳委員雪生：飛機如有影響就會影響到我們南竿，也會影響到北竿的落地喔！"],["林次長國顯：這個我們還在持續掌握中，因為高度還不曉得。"],["陳委員雪生：我想這個有機會民航局有來備詢的時候，我會詳細地問，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是，我們有掌握訊息，但是它還在發展中。"],["陳委員雪生：今天北竿跟莒光的雷達站對我們的飛航有沒有影響？因為它可以用電波擾亂我們喔！"],["林次長國顯：應該不會吧！"],["陳委員雪生：次長你請回，我問署長。你查證一下，署長，會不會影響？"],["程署長家平：不會影響，我們都做過背景的頻率測試，在背景的頻率測試時，不僅是民航，也包含軍方相關的頻率不會互相干擾。"],["陳委員雪生：你這個北竿的氣象雷達站，跟莒光的氣象雷達站，你回去以後行文給民航局，好不好？行文給民航局讓民航局來評估一下有沒有問題，如果有問題的話，你們要做適度地修正，好不好？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["陳委員雪生：不要影響到我們飛機的安全，謝謝主席。"],["主席：陳委員發言完畢，也謝謝邱若華委員的體諒。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時8分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.32596875,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.14346875,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.640968750000003,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.981593750000002,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.64784375,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.68096875,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.469718750000002,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.890968750000003,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.751593750000005,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.52284375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.20971875,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.31909375,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.33159375,"end":48.141593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.31034375,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.81659375,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.12034375,"end":49.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.984718750000006,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.23221875,"end":63.852218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.54409375,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.76346875,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.10909375,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.72909375,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.59346875,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.44971875,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.52534375,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":83.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.20346875,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.35034375000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.35846875,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.67846875000001,"end":96.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.19721875,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.64409375000001,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.46221875,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.28909375,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.86596875000001,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.96721875,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.40596875000001,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.56096875,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.75721875000002,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.71471875,"end":136.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.27534375000002,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.87846875,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.78034375000001,"end":146.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.77596875,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.02034375000002,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.11721875,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.90971875,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.50409375,"end":161.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.17034375,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.45721875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.72721875000002,"end":163.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.73534375,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.48159375,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.70471875,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.65784375,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.69534375,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.76659375,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.56784375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.74471875,"end":186.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.71846875,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.37659375,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.96721875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.90346875,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.06784375,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.43471875,"end":197.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.49346875,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.30721875,"end":203.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.32409375,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.34096875,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.78784375,"end":210.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.98534375000003,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.87096875,"end":216.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.13221875000002,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.87471875000003,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.05159375000002,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.20659375000002,"end":231.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.53846875000002,"end":236.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.36846875,"end":243.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.44846875000002,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.37221875,"end":250.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.38846875000002,"end":251.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.24471875,"end":254.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.43409375000002,"end":256.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.64471875000004,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.52221875000004,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.68221875,"end":262.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.79159375,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.84596875,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.55221875,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.18909375000004,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.96534375000005,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.42846875000004,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.73596875000004,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.91284375000004,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.95909375,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.95034375,"end":323.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.22534375000004,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.20784375,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.45659375,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.51534375,"end":330.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.93284375,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.15221875000003,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.83534375000005,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.00409375000004,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.10909375,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.36034375,"end":349.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.56284375,"end":352.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.46096875,"end":353.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.49471875,"end":353.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.51159375000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.43971875,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.45159375000003,"end":361.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.54409375,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.36221875,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.80909375000005,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.74409375000005,"end":380.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.39284375,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.98721875,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.10534375000003,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.87721875,"end":392.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.56034375,"end":394.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.63159375000004,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.35284375000003,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.95596875,"end":410.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.39034375,"end":401.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.97971875,"end":411.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.26596875,"end":417.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.30784375,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.97409375,"end":418.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.49284375,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.69409375000004,"end":429.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.11971875,"end":431.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.04346875000005,"end":435.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.57471875000005,"end":437.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.61596875000004,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.01221875000005,"end":444.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.02471875000003,"end":446.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.15534375000004,"end":448.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.46284375000005,"end":450.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.35284375000003,"end":453.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.39034375000006,"end":455.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.83659375,"end":461.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.84471875,"end":464.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.12284375,"end":467.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.05471875,"end":470.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.77159375,"end":472.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.30721875,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.43784375,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.39096875,"end":477.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.25159375000004,"end":481.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.70659375,"end":483.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.14096875,"end":484.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.66409375,"end":485.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.98034375000003,"end":506.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.60159375,"end":509.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.63909375000003,"end":510.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.61784375,"end":514.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.25034375,"end":517.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.9584687500001,"end":520.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.45596875,"end":521.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.02534375,"end":526.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.63221875,"end":526.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.07096875,"end":530.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.29409375,"end":530.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.9353437500001,"end":536.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.1284687500001,"end":537.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.7865937500001,"end":539.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.8372187500001,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.83659375,"end":542.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.40596875,"end":544.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.63784375,"end":546.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.99596875,"end":548.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.01284375,"end":549.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.7509687500001,"end":550.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.7847187500001,"end":550.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.6453437499999,"end":556.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.04534375,"end":561.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4834687499999,"end":561.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.8672187500001,"end":565.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.3603437500001,"end":567.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.9422187499999,"end":569.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.7097187500001,"end":571.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.62096875,"end":572.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.93721875,"end":575.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.3503437500001,"end":578.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.6072187500001,"end":581.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8515937500001,"end":581.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.88096875,"end":582.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.74159375,"end":583.9734687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.609,"end":12.152,"text":"首先謝謝我們溫馨、溫暖的早委、溫泽委員。請林次長。請次長。次長早安。首先恭喜您隆昇次長。謝謝委員。也謝謝次長在民航局局長任內。"},{"start":25.888,"end":46.402,"text":"對我們馬祖地方的協助,我也代表縣長、議長還有全體的鄉親對你表示感謝。國選局長非常優秀,所以部長提升你為次長也應該的。另外請問一下次長,公路局是不是你的夜館?"},{"start":47.386,"end":58.931,"text":"公路局啊?公路局不是但是我以前有當過路政司長因為剛才我聽林佩祥委員發言講到這個停車的問題我們在全國大概有800、900萬輛的車輛我們停車站有多少?應該遠少於200萬200萬裡面還包含了室內的停車場我所以講說這個空間啊"},{"start":76.547,"end":105.875,"text":"柯文哲市長上任以後把所有停車格的都劃出來了除了停車格之外全部都是紅線紅線就是要開單的意思我們警察也非常的負責任我覺得警察在管治安現在連晚上10點到凌晨都還在開單都還在開單所以這個市長回去檢討一下好不好我想謝謝市長你先請回你上來主要表示對你感謝是不是請一下主席"},{"start":106.96,"end":108.561,"text":"請一下氣象署署長。請署長。好,署長早安吼。委員長。委員長你上任以後我第一次對你的質詢吼。請問一下那個最近在馬祖啊,你在北甘島在舉光島成立兩座雷達站。舉光的雷達站勒?"},{"start":133.769,"end":162.655,"text":"我請問一下署長你們這兩座雷達站的興建他土地的取得都是國產署有沒有跟縣政府做過簡報或是跟縣長報告有縣長知道這個事嗎是知道其實在之前一年以前已經陸陸續續在做相關的報告那我們最近也在安排兩次的行程特別影響到整個都市計畫因為你要怎麼做"},{"start":163.803,"end":185.706,"text":"你看你馬祖北竿在板裡斷,你做了這個當然設計我看過了,是蠻好的,是以黑嘴端縫頭硬毆這個藍圖來做,它面積大概需要多少?你說土地面積嗎?對,它的基地面積"},{"start":199.561,"end":204.903,"text":"基地面積現在是20公尺乘上10公尺目前這個雷達站是一個無人的雷達站的設計"},{"start":214.522,"end":231.274,"text":"也是一樣都是無人雷達站也是無人的雷達站吼無人的雷達站是目前我們在水利署支持的防災降雨欄5座防災降雨欄其實也都是無人雷達站所以相關的無人雷達站的運作有跟阿兵哥的接在一起嗎馬祖馬祖對"},{"start":240.157,"end":264.57,"text":"有用到軍方的地就是秦山的營區和馬防部02觀測所的確是在軍方的空因為早上我已經提示你了我會問這個問題我提示你了所以你們的同仁應該要告訴署長告訴署長不要讓署長上台以後有些問題回答不出來那麼他的功能主要是什麼勒"},{"start":265.882,"end":289.304,"text":"好一個是西平段的雷達主要是針對降雨另外一個是毫米坡的雷達主要是針對霧那因為金馬地區其實霧的情形非常的嚴重我們也希望要加強金馬地區對於霧的觀測所以不僅是降雨也包含一個霧下雨跟霧對降雨和霧他一陣來一陣去你針對出來對我們地區有什麼"},{"start":291.465,"end":295.86,"text":"你會提供飛航的情報還有海上的"},{"start":296.977,"end":297.217,"text":"呃 對不起"},{"start":327.506,"end":352.704,"text":"不讓人家參觀嗎?可以參觀啊,我們並沒有不讓參觀,對那參觀如果有人去破壞怎麼辦呢?那參觀一定是我們有伴隨的參觀那因為目前是無人站的設計所以裡面到未來會有相關的保全系統以及會考慮有保全人員進去不可能,你要人家上去參觀的話任意都可以進去啊"},{"start":355.754,"end":378.888,"text":"參觀的部分一定有我們的人伴隨不會開放任意的人進去參觀是,就是有我們的氣象站的人員馬祖氣象站的人員我們的馬祖有人的氣象站那雷達站的部分是無人所以如果有人要去參觀這個雷達站的部分一定是我們馬祖氣象站的同一來支援為什麼坐在北竿呢?"},{"start":384.454,"end":410.003,"text":"你南竿的氣象站裡面有4個人5個人在裡面那你位置也很大你不都在那邊來監測這個霧你放在北竿有什麼意圖嗎主要是地點的有沒有軍事用途在裡面沒有沒有沒有完全沒有主要是在地點的尋找因為我們有好幾個地方在討論在什麼樣的地方比較適合設置那當然也牽涉到用地區的"},{"start":414.192,"end":437.028,"text":"他是純粹民間用途氣象用途從氣象的觀點來看相關的資料當然他們可以用做氣象用可是裡面沒有任何的軍事用途這個很難講我也不相信還有齁很重要一個問題那個國險市長你可能還要上來一下最近"},{"start":444.059,"end":455.364,"text":"大陸在舉光那個地方周圍已經很近了做風機啊風機什麼就是離岸風電這圖沒有上來圖沒有上來做了幾百根但是最靠近舉光的那一段我聽說是中國鋼鐵標很大很大將來"},{"start":474.482,"end":482.995,"text":"我請問一下你是民航局局長出來的那你我們的飛機是從舉光那一方從那邊進場有沒有問題?有沒有影響?"},{"start":486.055,"end":506.061,"text":"報告委員資料是還在掌握中目前是馬祖外海的風機地區他叫環境影響評估那其他的部分未來主要應該是航線的部分會影響船的部分可能有些會被調整需要調整"},{"start":506.681,"end":530.114,"text":"那高度的部分因為目前還沒有很明確飛機有沒有影響飛機如果有影響必須要調整宜航程序飛機影響會影響到我們南竿也影響到北竿的落地這個我們還在持續掌握中因為高度還不曉得我想這個有機會這個民航局有來備詢的時候我會詳細的問好不好我們有掌握這個訊息但是他還在發展中"},{"start":531.021,"end":539.43,"text":"那今天北竿跟菊光的雷達戰對我們的飛航有沒有影響?他的雷達?因為他可以用電波擾亂我們喔他的雷達?應該不會吧?市長你請回,我問那個署長"},{"start":548.278,"end":569.669,"text":"你查證一下署長有沒有影響不會影響我們都做過背景的頻率測試那在背景頻率測試不僅是民航也包含軍方相關的頻率不會互相干擾你這個北竿的氣象雷達站跟舉光的氣象雷達站你回去以後行文給民航局"},{"start":572.067,"end":581.361,"text":"請問給民航局,讓民航局來評估一下有沒有問題,如果有問題你們要做適度的修正好不好?不要影響到我們飛機的安全好不好?謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a7de533ee8d361e073919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6f710d25578a6b90f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:52:57 - 11:08:20","影片長度":"00:15:23","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":923,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:08:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:52:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時53分）主席，我們請副秘書長及部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長上臺。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：副秘書長，本席在這裡首先要表達的是，偵查不公開已經成為中華民國司法體制上最大的一個笑話！本席想了很久，司法不公開不只是司法界的笑話，更是對付國會在野黨最主要的利器，就叫司法不公開，假藉偵查不公開的名義，讓國會對很多事情都不能夠瞭解清楚，人民知的權利都沒有辦法在重大事件發生的時候能夠讓立法院調查清楚。我想今天的會議，我們不是在鋪一些梗，但是本席從剛剛聽到現在，暗樁都已經開始在部署了，針對未來國會改革的聽證權、調查權，已經在明示、暗示法務部以後要對抗國會。本席覺得偵查不公開本來就是一個最基本的義務，但是法務部為什麼會做成這個樣子？沒有人相信法務部的偵查不公開！而司法院一直在睡覺，為什麼全國人民有這麼高的比例都不相信司法？","部長，剛剛有提到108年到現在，這都是在部長您的任內，有多少件偵查不公開的事情洩露出來，然後大家開始討論的？有多少件？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有要求各地檢署每半年就要公布一次他們對於有違反的檢討案件數是多少，最後的結果如何，我們都會有要求。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊！108年到現在有七千多件，這麼多還是這麼少？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是蒐集來的、認為可能報導出來……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，七千多件啊！成案367件，處分15人，這是近親繁殖是嗎？七千多件最後處分15人，為什麼七千多件都會被洩露出來，然後最後只處分15人？本席在這裡請教一下，部長，偵查不公開，然後每一件重大刑案、重大的調查中案件都被洩露出來，光看一下鏡週刊，鏡週刊現在是法務部的專報是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是！沒有這回事！"],["傅委員崐萁：法務部的週刊，每一份資料直接從那裡查比較快，本席要在這裡特別請部長，您可能是中華民國史上在位最長的一位部長，甚至可能會繼續連任。但是我們對司法界到底留下了什麼，可以讓人民來相信司法，本席在這裡請教一下，到底針對偵查不公開的部分，部長，在你任內做了什麼防制的方式？有沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：有，我們就訂定了很嚴格的規定，很詳細的，本來刑事訴訟法只有一個很簡單的條文，就是偵查不公開，這樣子而已，但是如何去執行，我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布作業辦法，很明確的規定哪些是可以公開、哪些是例外、哪些是原則，我們都很明確地訂定。"],["傅委員崐萁：就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打詐，結果越打越詐，是一樣的意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，我們都全力以赴啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡再請教一下，我們目前所造成的問題，是要讓人民有信心，部長，人民要有信心啊！每一件案子，立法委員要問時就說偵查不公開，然後週刊寫得一清二楚，自由時報寫得一清二楚！本席在這裡請教一下，這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標把它發布出來，來帶風向、輿論，最後的結論及目的就是未審先判，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不會做這種事情啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：不會做這種事，確定？"],["蔡部長清祥：確定。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，那本席請教一下，在高虹安的案子裡面，這個很精彩啊，很精彩。週刊報導他有三種手法來詐領，第一種是以低報高詐領助理費，第二個是利用抵帳手法侵吞助理加班費，然後是按月把立委辦公室相關的費用叫助理們來分擔，連三項都列出來，在當時大選前如火如荼，這三項週刊都有報導。部長，是您告訴他們的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不可能！因為……"],["傅委員崐萁：不可能，那他們從哪裡知道的？"],["蔡部長清祥：這些訊息是起訴以後的話，也許在起訴書裡面有記載。"],["傅委員崐萁：這不是在起訴書，在偵查過程當中就已經刊登出來了嘛！本席現在請教你的都是偵查中就已經刊登出來的嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：那我們來瞭解時序，看是在偵查中還是審判後。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席再提醒你一下，在當時偵訊的過程中，吃飯時間到了，問他要吃什麼樣的便當，他說，他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒，還說便當好好吃，在哪裡訂的，這些通通都出來了。在偵查過程中，因為到了吃飯時間，問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒，他表達好不好吃，通通報導出來，這叫偵查不公開嗎？幾乎是同步的報導。本席再請教，同樣也是週刊報導，楊文科縣長說，他的競選總部的租金廠商有回捐，這樣子的話，是不是請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表抑或是行政首長，參選過程只要跟人家借或租競選總部，那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何……連公開的贊助都不可以，是不是變成這個樣子？今天我們去租了一個競選總部，這個總部的業主對競選的時候捐助政治獻金，這樣就觸犯對價，哇！部長乾脆把它具文法制化好了，不能永遠就一個字「心證」，什麼叫心證？你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫心證。這個東西也出來了，為什麼金額數字都有了？現在不是還在偵查中嗎？部長，是不是還在偵查中？為什麼這些資料都有了？","再過來，林姿妙縣長的事更離譜，說林姿妙縣長跟特定人有多少錢的往來、有多少支票、多少金額往來，這個還寫「獨家」，然後最後完完全全一點關係都沒有，但是打擊林姿妙縣長的選情是已經發生的效果。部長，為什麼都是這些縣市長，而且都是在大選前？部長，本席請教你一下，到底我們防制的方法是什麼，請告訴大家。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們嚴格的要求，一定要遵守刑事訴訟法的規定還有作業辦法，我們也辦了很多的講習，要檢察官來瞭解哪些可以公開、哪些不可以公開，甚至我們也轉達輔助的偵查機關也要遵守……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛！有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，我們就是要一再的要求。"],["傅委員崐萁：這樣子啦！既然這個是刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條涉及洩密的問題，當然是要查嘛！本席請教一下，部長，是不是爾後只要偵辦重大案件，任何媒體同步有相關內容的報導，什麼獨家、什麼知情人士說，只要看到有相關的問題、相關的報導一出來，法務部第一時間就出來否認，說這些報導不是屬實，可不可以？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不干預，可能個案處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫不干預？已經7,000多件啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：對，但是我們要求各地檢實際要做，法務部不能每一個地檢署的案子都來處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，第一個，大眾矚目的事情，如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情，而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密，這樣是不是能夠澈底把這個問題根絕掉？報紙一登立刻就查，到底是誰洩密。第二個，政府單位先否認，先否認才不會未審先判，才不會法務部兼法官的職務，已經由法務部在調查，就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果，把心證告訴全國國人，然後法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍。所以部長，這個事情要怎麼去解決？","本席跟你分享一下，2020總統大選、立委大選前，去上網都還可以看得到，選前4天本席參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮，一大早12個人被調去問，裡面支持我的不到一半，還有支持蕭美琴女士的，還有根本沒有管事的人，當天問到晚上9點多，一離開，9點半蕭美琴女士就在臉書貼說某區域立委候選人被調查預備賄選，臉書就貼出來，現在都還查得到。要謝謝法務部啊！那裡面支持我的人不到一半，還有支持蕭女士的，還有根本不管事的，結果那些人從早上6點鐘直接被敲門把人帶走，問到晚上9點，結果那12個人非常非常的生氣，回去全部都支持我。要謝謝法務部啊！結果本席在玉里鎮22個票桶全部都贏，我想今天這種帶風向的辦案，部長不能再做這種事情。"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！不會這樣做。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席剛剛已經建議，第一時間部裡面應該先否認相關的報導，讓他們不再有公信力。第二個，立刻啟動調查，到底誰洩密。如果部長有這樣的決心，我們相信大家就會相信法務部。","最後我們再看一下，部長您上次一直很好奇到底是誰講的，本席要跟您建議一下，台灣公民人權聯盟委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查，詢問百姓、民眾，檢察官辦案的時候會不會受到政治的影響？看一下結果是怎麼樣，85%的人相信會影響，只有9%的人認為不會影響。部長，本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看，說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果，就不會再有所謂的獨家內幕報導。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，委員的建議，如果他真的有涉及到洩漏或是違反偵查不公開，我們馬上啟動，要求調查，這個我們會做。"],["傅委員崐萁：第一時間，報紙出來立刻就啟動調查，看以後誰還會再洩密。"],["蔡部長清祥：啟動調查，我們來督導負責的上級單位等等，來依法調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：立刻調查就不會再有人洩密，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是我們應該做的。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：但是否認這個事情我們沒辦法。"],["傅委員崐萁：否認更應該要做。"],["蔡部長清祥：否認這個，我們不能未審先判，要經過調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：那你不就承認他講的是對的嗎？雞生蛋、蛋生雞，很清楚這個問題嘛！謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.353468750000001,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.63096875,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.942218750000002,"end":29.933468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.33409375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.494093750000005,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.23221875,"end":36.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.565343750000004,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.32034375,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.44221875,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.79659375,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.12971875,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.85909375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.98971875,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.12846875,"end":57.726593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.43534375,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.33346875,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.83534375000001,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.95721875000001,"end":68.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.91471875,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.18846875,"end":72.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.57221875,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.07409375,"end":76.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.43659375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.15784375,"end":80.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.04784375,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.86534375000001,"end":90.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.27409375,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.64846875,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.79534375,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.85346875,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.43534375,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.84846875000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.97846875,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.12159375,"end":123.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.14659375000001,"end":125.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.48784375000001,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.00221875,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.66846875000002,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.58784375000002,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.47346875,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.10471875000002,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.18846875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.47534375,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.00659375,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.65596875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.96784375000001,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.26721875,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":165.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.67596875,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.22409375,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.04221875000002,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.05846875,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.33659375000002,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.37846875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.51721875,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.43659375000001,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.10659375,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.36784375000002,"end":194.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.98784375000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.59471875000003,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.72534375,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.73784375000002,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.23971875,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.63596875000002,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.86346875,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.27221875,"end":211.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.98096875000002,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.68971875000003,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":213.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.33096875,"end":213.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.34784375,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.90471875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.16971875000002,"end":221.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.40534375000001,"end":225.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.99971875000003,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.86846875,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.17159375000003,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.30159375000002,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.58409375000002,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.59221875000003,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.39346875,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.73471875,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.52784375000002,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.20346875,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.16534375000003,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.77284375,"end":274.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.05971875,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.96221875000003,"end":280.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.60721875,"end":284.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.72534375000004,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.75846875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.00284375,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.83784375,"end":292.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.22971875,"end":294.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.12409375000004,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.22909375,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.59596875,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.92034375000003,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.16471875,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.12221875,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.21471875000003,"end":310.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.85159375,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.12971875,"end":313.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.93534375,"end":317.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.02346875,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.32284375,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.95971875000004,"end":322.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.00159375000004,"end":327.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.76034375,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.62846875,"end":335.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.82659375000003,"end":337.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.10471875,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.36596875000004,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.87159375000005,"end":346.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.04409375,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.65971875,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.04346875000005,"end":352.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.61284375,"end":356.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.08909375,"end":357.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.38846875,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.51471875000004,"end":361.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.89846875,"end":362.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.67034375000003,"end":364.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.25659375000004,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.52221875000004,"end":369.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.93096875000003,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.90096875,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.16221875,"end":376.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.59659375,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.67221875,"end":380.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.25409375000004,"end":383.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.68409375000005,"end":385.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.59534375000004,"end":391.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.96971875,"end":402.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.47034375000004,"end":402.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.14534375000005,"end":405.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.16221875,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.84096875,"end":406.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.51596875,"end":407.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.55784375,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.01346875,"end":410.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.27471875000003,"end":412.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.78909375,"end":415.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.37096875000003,"end":420.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.99471875,"end":423.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.65659375,"end":426.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.59284375000004,"end":429.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.44471875000005,"end":431.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.04784375,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.83659375,"end":435.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.11471875,"end":437.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.17346875000004,"end":439.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.16471875,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.18971875000005,"end":444.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.15971875,"end":446.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.61096875000004,"end":448.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.39534375000005,"end":450.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.82534375,"end":452.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.39471875000004,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.79096875000005,"end":457.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.95096875,"end":458.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.84534375000004,"end":459.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.16159375,"end":460.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.52846875,"end":470.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.63221875000005,"end":473.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.84721875,"end":474.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.82159375000003,"end":476.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.40784375000004,"end":479.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.58471875000004,"end":480.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.67721875,"end":484.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.18284375,"end":487.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.93784375,"end":488.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.74784375,"end":490.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.66721875,"end":492.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.59096875000006,"end":494.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.12221875000006,"end":499.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.64471875000004,"end":501.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.63596875,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.72846875000005,"end":506.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.76596875,"end":511.27596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.54596875000004,"end":513.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.4653437500001,"end":514.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.08971875,"end":516.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.5872187499999,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.60784375,"end":521.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.8984687500001,"end":524.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.65784375,"end":525.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.32846875,"end":527.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.29409375,"end":530.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.9265937499999,"end":535.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.79096875,"end":537.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.2297187500001,"end":538.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.57534375,"end":539.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.7565937500001,"end":541.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.51159375,"end":543.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.62096875,"end":545.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.8528437500001,"end":546.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.75971875,"end":548.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.28284375,"end":548.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.81846875,"end":550.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.4428437500001,"end":551.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.21471875,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.64471875,"end":555.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.5515937499999,"end":556.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.9140937500001,"end":561.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.8672187500001,"end":562.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.4365937499999,"end":565.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.54159375,"end":567.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7903437500001,"end":569.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.67596875,"end":571.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.5872187500001,"end":572.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.76409375,"end":575.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.70471875,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.4890937499999,"end":578.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.90659375,"end":580.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.8684687500001,"end":582.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.74159375,"end":584.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.84221875,"end":588.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.7278437500001,"end":592.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.00596875,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.32221875,"end":594.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.03096875,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.57096875,"end":596.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.6297187499999,"end":598.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.5365937500001,"end":608.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.8647187500001,"end":606.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.3959687500001,"end":611.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.15096875,"end":610.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.5303437499999,"end":613.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.7409687500001,"end":616.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.65596875,"end":619.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.3090937500001,"end":625.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.90784375,"end":626.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.2240937500001,"end":633.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.63659375,"end":634.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.8640937499999,"end":636.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.87659375,"end":637.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.6653437500001,"end":639.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.3528437500001,"end":643.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.92596875,"end":645.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.42784375,"end":647.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.1828437500001,"end":649.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.20346875,"end":652.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.74721875,"end":656.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.56534375,"end":659.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.64096875,"end":660.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.1428437500001,"end":663.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.1003437500001,"end":663.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.21846875,"end":663.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.7878437500001,"end":666.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.9228437500001,"end":670.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.8547187500001,"end":670.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.3059687500001,"end":679.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.35659375,"end":670.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.8203437500001,"end":673.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.60909375,"end":676.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.6672187500001,"end":680.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.9709687500001,"end":682.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.87346875,"end":686.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.77159375,"end":689.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.87659375,"end":691.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.75409375,"end":693.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.24721875,"end":696.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.74471875,"end":699.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.2590937500001,"end":701.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.7947187500001,"end":702.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.65096875,"end":705.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.1484687500001,"end":707.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.44346875,"end":709.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.6415937500001,"end":710.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.00409375,"end":716.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.59409375,"end":720.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.70721875,"end":723.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.93471875,"end":726.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.5290937500001,"end":728.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.4740937500001,"end":729.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.45284375,"end":730.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.51159375,"end":732.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.60409375,"end":736.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.0634687500001,"end":738.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.15596875,"end":740.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.8390937500001,"end":743.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.6784687500001,"end":744.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.3828437500001,"end":746.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.5303437500002,"end":747.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.0109687500001,"end":749.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.5759687500001,"end":753.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.5334687500001,"end":755.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.03096875,"end":757.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.9965937500001,"end":761.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.20721875,"end":762.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.9578437499999,"end":767.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.7590937500001,"end":770.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.3997187500001,"end":774.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.28096875,"end":777.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.04846875,"end":780.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.00159375,"end":783.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.3640937499999,"end":785.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.7097187500001,"end":788.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.05534375,"end":791.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.57784375,"end":794.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.0459687500002,"end":797.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.1884687500001,"end":802.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.25159375,"end":803.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.65221875,"end":805.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.9890937500002,"end":810.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.87471875,"end":811.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.68471875,"end":812.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.1147187500001,"end":815.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.1653437500001,"end":817.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.5828437500002,"end":815.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.9115937500001,"end":819.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.71721875,"end":820.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.4465937500001,"end":824.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.16784375,"end":826.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.00721875,"end":827.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.09971875,"end":830.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.64784375,"end":832.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.47471875,"end":834.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.19596875,"end":835.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.7822187500001,"end":839.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.40596875,"end":841.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.6884687500001,"end":845.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.1940937500001,"end":851.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.5222187500001,"end":854.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.98596875,"end":858.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.9853437500001,"end":860.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.27596875,"end":865.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":866.35971875,"end":866.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.50721875,"end":871.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.16471875,"end":874.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.25284375,"end":880.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.50596875,"end":876.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.0747187500001,"end":902.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.61346875,"end":890.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.6172187500001,"end":895.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.1640937500001,"end":903.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":904.32846875,"end":915.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.62346875,"end":907.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.3615937500001,"end":908.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.50034375,"end":915.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":915.76971875,"end":916.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.54159375,"end":918.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":917.9297187500001,"end":921.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.23284375,"end":923.31284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.887,"end":39.812,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長還有部長麻煩部長副秘書長上台委員好這個副秘書長需要在這裡首先表達偵查不公開已經成為中華民國司法體制上最大的一個笑話"},{"start":43.173,"end":67.72,"text":"本席想了很久司法不公開不只是司法界的笑話更是對付國會在野黨最主要的利器叫司法不公開假借偵查不公開的名義讓國會很多事情都不能夠了解清楚人民知的權利"},{"start":68.939,"end":96.815,"text":"都沒有辦法在重大事件發生的時候能夠讓立法院能夠調查清楚所以我想今天的會議我們不是在鋪一些梗但是本席從剛剛聽到現在已經暗樁都已經開始在部署了針對未來國會改革的聽證權、調查權已經在民事暗示法務部以後要對抗國會本席覺得"},{"start":99.04,"end":125.079,"text":"偵查不公開這本來就是一個最基本的一個義務但是法務部為什麼會做成這個樣子沒有人去相信法務部偵查不公開而司法院一直在睡覺為什麼全國人民都不相信司法這麼高的比例部長剛剛有提到啊108年到現在也都是在您部長任內"},{"start":127.543,"end":151.278,"text":"有多少件偵查洩密不公開的事情而洩漏出來然後大家開始討論有多少件我們有要求各地檢署他們每半年要公布一次他們對於有違反的檢討的案件屬實有多少那最後的結果如何我們都有要求"},{"start":153.223,"end":175.868,"text":"部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊一百零八年到現在七千多件這麼多還是這麼少這是收集來的認為可能報導出來那個部長七千多件啊成案三百六十七件處分十五人"},{"start":177.489,"end":203.854,"text":"這是近親繁殖是嗎七千多件最後處分15人為什麼七千多件都會被漏出來然後最後只處分15人我現在這裡請教請教一下部長偵查不公開然後每一件重大刑案重大的這個調查中的案件都洩漏出來"},{"start":205.68,"end":228.847,"text":"光看一下那個《靖州刊》,《靖州刊》現在是法務部的專報是嗎?不是。每一份資料,直接從那裡查比較快。我需要在這裡特別請部長,您在可能是中華民國史上歷史在位最長的一位部長。"},{"start":229.969,"end":230.47,"text":"甚至可能會繼續連任。"},{"start":249.611,"end":272.825,"text":"有,我們就訂定了這麼很嚴格的規定,很詳細的本來刑事書法只有一個很簡單的條文,就是偵查不公開,這樣子而已但是如何去執行,我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布這種作業辦法那很明確的哪些是可以公開,哪些是例外,或是說哪些是原則,我們都很明確的訂定"},{"start":274.232,"end":301.175,"text":"就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打炸打炸結果越打越炸是一樣的意思嗎不是我們都全力以赴啦再請教一下我們目前所造成的問題是讓人民有信心部長人民要有信心啊每一件案子立法委要問偵查不公開"},{"start":302.947,"end":319.994,"text":"然後週刊寫的一清二楚 自由時報寫的一清二楚 現在請教一下這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標來把它發布出來 來帶風向輿論"},{"start":323.072,"end":352.268,"text":"最後就是結論目的就是為審先判是不是法務部不會做這種事情不會做這種事確定確定那本席請教一下在高鴻安的案子裡面這個很精彩很精彩這個週刊報導他有三種手法來乍理第一種"},{"start":353.663,"end":380.015,"text":"第一,以低報告乍領助理費。第二個,利用抵帳手法侵吞助理加班費。按月把立委辦公室相關的費用,叫助理們來分攤。連三項都列出來。在當時大選前如何如圖,這三項週刊都有報導。"},{"start":381.328,"end":382.368,"text":"本席再提醒你一下在當時在偵詢過程"},{"start":411.351,"end":438.553,"text":"吃飯時間到了問他要吃什麼樣的便當他說他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒便當好好吃在哪裡訂的這些通通都出來了在偵查過程中因為到了吃飯時間問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒他表達好不好吃通通報導出來"},{"start":440.339,"end":460.519,"text":"這叫偵查不公開嗎?幾乎是同步的報導本期再請教楊文科縣長也同樣也是週刊報導說他的租金他的租金競選總部的租金這個廠商有回捐那這樣子的話是不是"},{"start":461.904,"end":490.075,"text":"請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表亦或是行政首長有參選過程如果只要跟人家借租借或租競選總部那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何連公開的贊助都不可以是不是變成這個樣子今天我們去租了一個競選總部"},{"start":492.302,"end":518.844,"text":"這個總部的業主來對競選的這個時候政治獻金來捐助這樣就觸犯對價哇 這個部長乾脆把他據文法之話好了不能永遠就一個字新政 什麼叫新政你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫新政這個東西也出來了為什麼金額數字都有"},{"start":520.769,"end":537.519,"text":"現在不是還在偵查中嗎部長是不是還在偵查中為什麼這些資料都有了再過來那個林志廟現場的事更離譜林志廟現場的事更離譜連啊這個說啊這個林志廟現場"},{"start":550.509,"end":578.57,"text":"跟特定人有多少錢的往來有多少支票這個還寫獨家然後多少對金額往來然後最後完完全全是一點關係都沒有但是打擊零支票現場的選情是已經發生了效果部長"},{"start":580.186,"end":591.873,"text":"為什麼都是這些縣市長而且都是在大選前部長本希請教您一下到底我們防制的方法是什麼"},{"start":593.679,"end":619.857,"text":"請告訴大家我們嚴格的要求一定要遵守這個刑事訴訟法的規定還有作業辦法那我們也辦了很多的講習要檢察官來瞭解哪些是可以公開哪些不可以公開甚至我們也轉達輔助的偵查機關也要遵守您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法有沒有"},{"start":623.442,"end":649.002,"text":"當然我們一再的就是要求嘛好 這樣子啦既然這個是刑事訴訟法245條這裡涉及洩密的問題當然是要查嘛本席請教一下部長是不是而後只要有偵辦重大案件同步任何媒體有相關內容的報導什麼獨家"},{"start":654.793,"end":681.91,"text":"什麼知情人士說只要看到有相關的問題相關的報導一出來法務部第一時間就出來否認可不可以說這些報導不是屬實法務部不干預可能各案處理怎麼叫不干預七千多件啊對但是我們要求各地檢所以沒有關係我們不能法務部每一個地檢署的案子都來處理第一個大眾矚目的事情"},{"start":683.939,"end":710.488,"text":"如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密這樣是不是能夠徹底把這個問題根絕掉報紙一登立刻就查到底誰洩密第二個政府單位先否認先否認才不會為誰先判才不會防護兼法官的職務"},{"start":712.042,"end":740.411,"text":"已經由法務部在調查就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果把新證告訴全國國人讓法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍所以啊部長這個事情要怎麼去解決本席跟你分享一下齁2020大選前總統大選、立委大選前選前四天其實上網都還可以看得到"},{"start":741.877,"end":769.773,"text":"本席參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮一大早12個人被調去問裡面支持我的不到一半還有支持蕭美琦女士還有根本沒有管事的人當天問到晚上9點多一離開9點半蕭美琦女士就在臉書貼說某區一位候選人被調查預備會選"},{"start":772.721,"end":797.47,"text":"臉書就貼出來 現在都還查得到那謝謝法務部啊那裡面支持我的人不到一半還有支持蕭女士的還有根本不管事的結果那些人從早上6點鐘被直接敲門把人帶走問到晚上9點結果那12個人非常非常的生氣回去全部都支持我"},{"start":801.566,"end":830.541,"text":"謝謝法務部結果本席在於李政22個票統全部都贏我想今天這種帶風向的辦案部長不能再做這種事情本席剛剛已經建議第一時間第一時間部裡面應該先否認相關的報導讓他們不再有公信力第二個立刻啟動調查到底誰洩密如果部長有這樣的決心"},{"start":831.687,"end":859.819,"text":"我們相信大家就會相信法務部我們再看一下最後部長您上次一直很好奇說到底誰講的我現在跟您跟您建議一下台灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查詢問百姓民眾檢察官大案的時候會不會受到政治的影響看一下結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":862.938,"end":874.043,"text":"85%的人相信會影響只有9%的人認為不會影響部長我們真的本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果"},{"start":875.407,"end":877.048,"text":"立刻調查就不會再有人洩密可以嗎"},{"start":904.543,"end":914.733,"text":"這是我們應該做的啦但是否認這個事情我們沒辦法做否認更應該要做否認這個我們不能慰險審判不能慰險審判那你不就承認他講的是對的嗎對不對計程單單身機很清楚這個問題嘛好不好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733afeca0328706042825d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a66a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:48:11 - 10:57:45","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":574,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:57:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:48:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時48分）請林次長跟程署長上臺，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長跟署長。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：次長及署長，本席一向認為在現在的氣候變遷上面，我們看到的豪大雨或急降雨其實遠比我們常看到的颱風來得有威脅的多，我就想請教署長，您這邊有所謂的資料，在過去30年之間，以10年為間隔的30年間的資料是針對豪大雨發生的機率跟它的降雨量嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，目前我們跟國科會有一個合作計畫，特別對於歷史發生的相關資料都有相關的研究，的確，以目前1年豪大雨發生的次數或者天數來說，比較大的大雨發生天數大概是100天左右，這個部分未來會隨著我們面對的氣候變遷的情境狀態，未來的狀態大概是這樣，就是我們的降雨日數，強降雨的日數會稍微增加，可是小降雨的日數會稍微減少。"],["林委員沛祥：署長，我想知道的是你們有沒有掌握到所謂的趨勢？就是過去……"],["程署長家平：有！"],["林委員沛祥：從1990年到2000年、從2000年到2010年、從2010年到2020年，一般來講雨量或許有增加或許有減少，但是強降雨的趨勢，因為本席認為我們自己每個人在生活當中總覺得這種強降雨的機率越來越高，天氣越來越熱、強降雨的機率越來越高，但是我們滿需要一個客觀的data跟我們講說，像這樣的事情是不是在發生？發生的時機在什麼時候？我們這樣才能做好預防，對吧？"],["程署長家平：是。我們手上有具體的統計資料，從概念上來講，就降雨量而言，全年降雨量的變化其實並不明顯，就是說雨沒有比較特別多一點，可是降雨日數會有差別，有相當明顯的差異，就是強降雨的日數會變多，弱降雨的日數變少。它的意思就是我們的降雨量會更集中，所以就是符合我們一般現在認知的，就是極端化的概念，就是它的頻率和它的發生都會加強。"],["林委員沛祥：好，署長，像這樣的現象就跟你們從第12頁到第14頁講的，不管是所謂的企業風險數位治理計畫還是所謂的申辦數值天氣測報高速運算電腦，這個都是未來你們很重要的業務，因為我們只有從過去的data才會知道未來的走向，就這方面來講，本席希望你能夠提一個報告出來，而且你可以跟本席、跟所有人講說，您認為像這樣的事情就可以證明所謂的global warming、所謂的全球暖化對於臺灣是有實實在在的威脅嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，的確是這樣。這兩個計畫其中有很大一部分也是希望能夠加強我們對於天氣更趨劇烈的預報能力的增進，當然除此之外，其實也不僅僅是降雨，在臺灣的增溫也是相當地明顯。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝署長。再來我想請問一下，你在第4頁有講到說從2022年開始，你們跟雙北市政府合作，試辦所謂的溪水暴漲預警，這跟剛剛我們講的豪大雨是絕對有關係的，然後在2023年開始，你們於10縣市共19個溪流區擴大試辦。我想請問一下，第一點就是擴大試辦的成果怎麼樣？當然你們的報告上面寫得比較籠統一點，我想知道直接的反應時間，還有你們所謂擴大試辦的area，就是試辦的溪流區面積，還有就是你們試辦之後跟地方政府之間的溝通是如何？"],["程署長家平：委員問的是非常非常重要的問題，因為有關溪流的降雨預報是由氣象署來發布，特別是在山區它本身就是個挑戰，因為下雨的區域和發生氾濫的區域在時間上有時間差，在空間上也不一樣，因為它需要經過匯流的過程，所以這部分是一個挑戰。另外一個挑戰特別就是跟地方政府的合作，所以為什麼從111年開始跟地方政府去密切的合作，跟地方政府的消防局、旅遊局去合作，在112年的時候特別也邀請了災防辦和地方政府加入了10個縣市和19個溪流所謂特定的區域……"],["林委員沛祥：好，請問署長，10縣市裡面有包括基隆嗎？"],["程署長家平：基隆沒有在裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：請問署長，您知道大武崙跟深澳坑溪是常態性的每年都會發生淹水嗎？基本上來講，基隆的地勢只有山跟海而已，所以相對比較起來，大武崙地區從2017年開始每年都會遇到淹水的困擾，因為每年都有強降雨的事情；而且另外一方面，當然位於基隆市東岸的深澳坑溪是地勢稍微高的地方，但是每年也都會淹水。請問你們有針對這二個地方，甚至還有廟口區域，甚至基隆最低窪的地方都可能因為海水暴漲而導致廟口──基隆市最精華的地方，都造成淹水，請問你們有掌握到這些資訊嗎？"],["程署長家平：我們開會的時候其實有邀基隆市政府一起來，就是在討論的過程裡面，他們覺得是不是他們有能夠準備好一起做試辦的相關工作，因為它其實會壓迫到地方政府的防救災的相關能力……"],["林委員沛祥：我認為這一點來講，中央政府次長在這邊，我認為在這邊你們必須把基隆納入考量，而且與其說是經費的問題，倒不如說是人命的問題，基隆市在2017年的時候，因為大武崙的淹水已經走了兩、三個人，所以這一點來講，我不希望像這樣的憾事在本席的選區內發生，我想這件事不只是氣象署需要納入考量之外，交通部更需要把我剛剛講的每一字、每一句把它納入會議紀錄，並重新分編預算。"],["程署長家平：好，我們再找基隆市政府來加強這個部分。"],["林委員沛祥：好。再來我想請問一下，既然次長都在這邊，你提到次長了，我也請問一下，次長，我問一個題外話。最近關於交通記點的問題，交通部因為微罪不記點的問題鬧得沸沸揚揚，我想請教次長，如果一部車因為違規被拖走了，他記不記點？依您的第一直覺，如果因為違規而被拖走了，他記不記點？"],["林次長國顯：要看他違規的樣態，譬如說他是double-parking，目前違規記點有幾個樣態。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，這就是我想要跟您討論的，未來我們可能還會再繼續討論，所謂的「微罪」是不是有更好的配套措施，有更充分的討論才能決定什麼是微罪、什麼不是微罪？同樣是違停，如果你是半夜停在陽明山上沒有停車位的地方，這樣的違停是不是要記點？這是一回事。"],["林次長國顯：了解，非常了解您的意思。"],["林委員沛祥：相同地一樣是違停，你停在臺北市政府前面還是停在總統府前面，要不要記點？這個事情我覺得像這樣的微罪，整體來講你們所謂規範的「微罪」要經過充分地討論，而且所謂的配套措施都沒有出來。另外一件事就是請問誰能決定記點？理論上能決定記點的人不應該單單純純只是檢舉的人而已吧。"],["林次長國顯：了解，應該是這樣子。委員，您提的很重要，我也稍微跟您報告一下，昨天因為有很多民眾團體反映，事實上以行人的安全來講，我們部長對這件事情特別注意……"],["林委員沛祥：次長，我覺得這件事情，我就直接把我的建議提出來，請問第一線執法人員，我們是否給他足夠的公權力，這個可能不單單純是交通部的問題……"],["林次長國顯：沒錯，還要跟內政部警政署……"],["林委員沛祥：但是交通部如果擬一個政策出來，所有的配套措施應該要完整，完整之後你才能做出更好的決策。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["林委員沛祥：所以本席在這邊建議，如果你給第一線執法人員更大的權限去決定像這樣的微罪違規是否值得記點，我覺得這樣可能對於社會大眾會是比較公允的存在。"],["林次長國顯：是。委員，容我再補充跟您報告一下，因為行人的部分目前是重點，所以不管是行人專用道或是行人步道的設計、違停或是臨停設施的處理，還有專用號誌以及我們現在的臨停區如何管理，或者是行穿線沒有處理，這個大概都是目前的重點。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，這是交通部本來就應該要做好的配套措施……"],["林次長國顯：對，但是你剛剛提的是……"],["林委員沛祥：而不是你現在跟我報告的，對吧？"],["林次長國顯：重要的issue我們會跟……"],["林委員沛祥：我會希望有一個完整的書面報告跟我報告這個案子，可以嗎？"],["林次長國顯：了解，這個部裡現在逐步跟各單位在討論，然後會提到交委會來審查，審查時會充分的討論。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，林沛祥委員發言完畢。","陳委員有什麼重要的事嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.74721875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.29971875,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.89034375,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.61159375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.864093750000002,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.28596875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.02846875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.197218750000005,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.64721875000001,"end":83.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":85.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.37221875,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.27909375,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.05534375,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.78471875000001,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.47659375,"end":138.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.49034375000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.07034375,"end":189.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.82409375,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.92409375000003,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.03221875000003,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.87034375000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.11784375000002,"end":254.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.67034375000003,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.97409375,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.36409375,"end":301.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.28034375000004,"end":348.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.31409375000004,"end":365.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.76284375,"end":368.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.90159375,"end":399.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.31034375,"end":419.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.32721875000004,"end":400.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.81346875,"end":420.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.15096875,"end":425.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.24284375,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.69846875,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.45721875000004,"end":436.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.54909375000005,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.26596875,"end":478.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.54971875,"end":461.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.00659375000004,"end":485.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.22096875000005,"end":501.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.79284375000003,"end":528.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.64784375000005,"end":509.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.72721875,"end":513.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.6909687500001,"end":551.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.31534375,"end":529.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.29096875,"end":556.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.10909375,"end":555.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.3997187500001,"end":558.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.96909375,"end":562.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.1415937500001,"end":571.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.6884687500001,"end":571.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.7053437500001,"end":572.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.07659375,"end":572.5322187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.892,"end":14.003,"text":"請林次長跟陳署長上台請次長跟署長委員早早"},{"start":17.03,"end":41.024,"text":"市長、署長本期將認為說在現在的這個氣候變遷上面我們看到的豪大雨或即降雨其實遠比我們現在常看到的颱風來的有威脅的多那我就想請教署長您這邊有所謂的資料有甚至過去30年之間以10年為間隔30年之間的資料針對豪大雨發生的機率跟它的降雨量嗎?"},{"start":43.359,"end":63.815,"text":"目前其實我們跟國科會有個合作計畫特別對於歷史發生的相關的資料都有相關的研究的確在目前就是一年豪大雨發生的次數或者天數我們講說比較大的大雨發生的天數大概是100天左右"},{"start":64.635,"end":84.575,"text":"那這個部分會未來隨著我們面對的這個氣候變遷的情境狀態未來的狀態大概是這樣就是我們的降雨日數強降雨的日數會稍微增加可是小降雨的日數會稍微減少我想知道是你們有沒有掌握到所謂的趨勢就是說過去十"},{"start":87.857,"end":116.627,"text":"從1990年到2000年從2000年到2010年到2010年到2020年他們所謂一般來講雨量或許有增加或許有減少但是強降雨的趨勢因為本席會認為說我們自己每個人在生活當中總覺得這種強降雨的機率越來越高天氣越來越熱強降雨的機率越來越高但是我們蠻需要一個客觀的data跟我們講說這像這樣的事情是不是在發生那發生的時機在什麼時候那我們這樣才能做好"},{"start":118.769,"end":137.246,"text":"我們手上其實有具體的統計資料從概念上來講就是就降雨量而言全年的降雨量他其實他的變化並不明顯就是說雨沒有比較特別多一點可是降雨日數會有差別相當明顯的差異就是強降雨的日數會變多"},{"start":138.607,"end":159.136,"text":"若降雨的日數變少他的意思就是我們的降雨量會更集中所以就是符合我們一般現在認知的就是極端化的概念就是他的頻率和他的發聲他都會加強像現在這樣的現象就跟你們從12月到14月講的不管是所謂的氣味風險數位治理計畫還是所謂申辦所謂的數值天氣預報這個高速運算"},{"start":167.479,"end":188.674,"text":"運算電腦這都是未來你們很重要的業務那因為我們只有從過去的data才會知道未來的走向那這方面來講本席希望說你有一個報告出來而且你可以跟本席跟所有人講說那您認為像這樣的事情就可以證明的所謂的這global warming所謂的全球暖化對於對於台灣是有實施上下的威脅嗎?"},{"start":189.935,"end":195.285,"text":"是的確是這樣那這兩個計畫其中有很大一部分也是在希望能夠加強我們對於這個"},{"start":197.967,"end":219.469,"text":"天氣更趨劇烈的預報能力的增進當然除此之外其實也不僅僅是降雨在臺灣的增溫也是相當的明顯好 謝謝署長再來是我想請問一下你在第4頁有講到雙雙2022年開始你們跟雙北有在做所謂有在做所謂的事辦溪水暴漲預警這跟剛剛我們講的豪大雨是絕對有關係的"},{"start":220.51,"end":241.646,"text":"然後在2023年開始你們於十縣市從19個所謂西流區來擴大事辦那我想請問一下就是說第一點就是擴辦的成果怎麼樣當然你們上面寫的比較籠統一點我想知道直接的反映時間還有你們所謂的擴大事辦的area就所謂的面積的這個所謂的"},{"start":245.049,"end":253.935,"text":"西流區的面積還有就是還有還有就是所謂的你們跟之間能這個辦好之後跟地方政府之間的溝通是如何"},{"start":256.478,"end":272.05,"text":"委員問的非常非常重要的問題因為這一個有關溪流的降雨預報是由氣象署來發布特別是在山區因為它本身就是個挑戰因為它下雨的區域和發生氾濫的區域時間上有時間差"},{"start":275.293,"end":275.673,"text":"十縣市裡面有包括基隆嗎?"},{"start":303.238,"end":326.91,"text":"基隆沒有在裡面請問署長您知道大武倫跟深奧坑溪是常態性的每年都會發生淹水嗎?基隆的地勢基本上來講基隆的地勢是只有山跟海而已所以說相對比較起來大武倫地區從2017年開始每年都會遇到淹水的困擾因為每年都有強降雨的事情"},{"start":327.33,"end":346.992,"text":"而且另外一方面基隆市在於東岸的深澳坑溪也是地勢效率高的地方但是每年也都會淹水請問你們有針對這兩個地方甚至廟口區域甚至基隆最低窪的地方都可能因為海水暴漲導致說廟口基隆市最精華的地方所造成淹水請問你們有掌握到這些資訊嗎?"},{"start":348.465,"end":363.64,"text":"我們開會的時候其實是有交基隆市政府一起來那就是在討論的過程裡面他們覺得是不是他們有有能夠準備好做一起再做事辦的相關的工作因為他他會他其實會這個壓迫到"},{"start":365.822,"end":394.718,"text":"到地方政府的這個防救災的相關的能力我認為這一點來講中央政府市長在這邊我認為在這邊你們必須把基隆納入考量而且與其說是經費問題倒不說是人命問題基隆市在2017年2017年的時候因為大五輪的淹水已經已經走了兩三個人所以這一點來講而且我不希望像這樣的憾事在本席的選區上面發生我想這件事不只是氣象署需要需要納入考量之外交通部更需要把我我剛剛講的每一字每一句"},{"start":395.518,"end":424.79,"text":"把他納入會議記錄並重新分辨列預算我們再來找基隆市政府來加強這個部分好再來我也想請問一下市長都在這邊提到市長了那我想請問一下市長我問一個跟這個的題外話齁最近我們這個點數的問題啊這個交通部因為這個違罪不記點的問題他都沸沸揚揚那我想請教市長如果一部車因為違規被拖走了他記不記點"},{"start":426.889,"end":436.518,"text":"您的第一直覺,如果因為違規而被拖走了,他記不記點?要看他違規的樣態,譬如說他是double parking"},{"start":437.828,"end":458.028,"text":"目前違規祭典有幾個樣態這就是我想要跟您討論的就是說未來我們可能會再繼續討論所謂的違罪是不是有更好的配套措施有更充分的討論才能決定什麼是違罪什麼不是違罪同樣的違停如果你是半夜停在陽明山上沒有停車位的地方"},{"start":458.849,"end":476.288,"text":"這個這樣的維庭是不是要祭典這是一回事可是一樣的維庭你提在台北市政府前面還提在總統府前面要不要祭典這個事情我覺得像這樣的違罪整體來講你們所謂規範的違罪要經過充分的討論而且所謂的配套措施都沒有出來另外一件事就是請問誰能決定祭典"},{"start":480.066,"end":507.227,"text":"理論上誰能決定祭典的人不應該是單單純純只是檢舉的人而已應該是這樣子委員您提的很重要那我想我也稍微跟您報告一下昨天因為有很多民眾團體反映事實上以行人的安全主義市長我覺得這件事情我直接把我的建議提出來請問第一線執法人員我們是否給他足夠的公權力這個可能不單單純純是交通部的問題"},{"start":507.927,"end":528.528,"text":"但是交通部如果說你一個政策出來所有的配套措施應該要完整完整之後你才能做出更好的決策所以本席在這邊建議如果你給第一線執法人員更大的權限來去決定像這樣的違罪違規是否是值得祭典我覺得這樣會可能是對於社會大眾會是比較公平的存在"},{"start":529.409,"end":547.708,"text":"委員我再補充跟您報告一下行人的部分因為目前是重點所以不管是行人專用道或是行人步道的設置維艇或是林艇設施的處理還有專用那個叫專用號誌以及我們現在的這個林艇區如何管理"},{"start":548.268,"end":571.767,"text":"或者是行川縣沒有出席,這個大概都是目前的狀況。市長,這是交通部應該本來需要做好的配套措施,而不是你現在跟我報告的,對吧?重要的議題我們會跟...我會希望說有個完整的書面報告跟我報告這個案子,可以嗎?了解。我想這個部裡現在逐步跟各單位在討論,那現在會提到交委會來做審查,審查以後會充分的來討論。好。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a37e1c8f9b43c181b5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a6c2cb998dec49867b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:38:20 - 10:48:00","影片長度":"00:09:40","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":580,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:48:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:38:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":451,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時38分）好，謝謝主席。請主席邀請氣象署程署長。"],["主席：請程署長。"],["陳委員素月：署長早安。我們知道現在全球氣候變遷所產生極端氣候的現象，這個頻率越來越高，所以各領域對於整個氣象資訊的需求也越來越高，因為畢竟極端氣候對於人類社會或者是經濟都產生非常大的影響跟衝擊，所以各個領域也希望透過資訊的取得來有所預防，做氣候風險的管理。本席有看到我們氣象署有建置氣候的資訊平臺，就是氣象資料的開放平臺，我先請教一下我們這個平臺是什麼時候建置的？"],["程署長家平：這個資料開放平臺其實在105年已經開始建置，然後陸陸續續的增加。"],["陳委員素月：是，目前這個平臺所提供的資訊已經是我們氣象署所有的資訊嗎？這個完整性如何？"],["程署長家平：它是開放資料，所以它並不是所有的資料，因為有些資料其實非常需要比較深入的一些氣象技術，所以對於那些比較需要深入氣象技術的那些資料，目前並沒有放在開放資料上面，不過開放資料上面目前已經提供了7大類、總共529項的相關資料，每個月所提供的資料存取量其實是超過1億次，所以在提供我們相關的民間及產業界的應用存取事實上是非常大量，可是對於尚未開放的這些資料，我們採取的是合作的方式來進行。"],["陳委員素月：這個部分以後有可能開放嗎？"],["程署長家平：會，我們其實在去年，應該說前年，推出了氣象資源創新試用方案，它其實是一個sandbox的概念，希望能夠進一步的協助我們的民間產業界來用這些資料，因為這些資料比較複雜，所以怎麼樣去使用會需要跟民間的產業去做相關的互動。我們也期待透過這個氣象資源創新試用方案，未來能夠更明確的知道到底哪些資料適合開放給民間來做應用。"],["陳委員素月：目前我們的資料開放平臺，對於使用的人有沒有去做過統計，目前的功效如何？成效如何？你們有去做過這個評估嗎？"],["程署長家平：有，目前我們提供相關資料的使用對象是採用會員制，我們目前的客戶大概有八萬多人，當然這八萬多人不是都是很活躍的，活躍的客戶大概是一千多，以所下載的資料量來說，剛剛有稍微報告，每個月平均下載量大概是1億次左右。"],["陳委員素月：是，我想氣象資料當然也有很專業性的部分，可是對於一些民眾來說，他們是希望能取得跟他們生活上息息相關的一些資料，所以這個資料的完整性跟準確性就非常的重要。剛剛聽署長的報告，就完整性的部分來說，應該是已經有九成左右的完整性。至於在準確性方面，我想這個也是我們氣象署一直在努力的部分，我們也看到你們在今天的業務報告裡面有提到，在第6代高速電腦啟用之後，未來你們也會再啟動第7代高速電腦計畫，我想這就是希望在整個未來氣象的預測上能夠更精準。","其實以本席自己的體驗來說，目前這二年我發現及觀察到我們氣象對於豪大雨的預測是滿準確的，準確度滿高的，就是包括在什麼時間、什麼地區的降雨量大概會多少，我想這個對於整個災害的預防是滿重要的。當然我們也是希望在未來第7代高速電腦建置之後，氣象的預測能夠更準確。我想再請教一下署長，未來第7代高速電腦跟第6代的差異會在哪裡？"],["程署長家平：主要的部分是算力的差異，當然還有一個很大的差別，因為目前在氣象署內部的空間已經沒有辦法來承載更大的計算能量，所以未來我們的計畫是會自己建立一個機房，目前正在報請行政院核定中，因為這些機房比較特殊，不是一般民間我們講的IDC能夠處理的，譬如說它的冷卻系統需要特別，它的樓板高度需要特別，它的承載力需要達到每平方公尺2噸的這些，所以會需要一個特殊的機房。目前大概只有我們國家的國家高速電腦中心有類似的機房設備，所以這個部分我們會需要去自建機房。除了機房運作的環境之外，有關計算能量的部分，也會再進一步的提升。"],["陳委員素月：是，我看到第7代高速電腦計畫是預計9年的期程嘛，經費也高達73.54億，所以這個計畫你們是預計在下個會期就會提出預算規劃嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，目前正在申請中，我們期待在今年可以獲得行政院的核定。"],["陳委員素月：好，我們也希望在氣象的預測上能夠更準確，然後也能夠提供我們國人在各領域的使用，達到災害預防的成效。","本席所在的彰化縣是農業大縣，所以我比較關心的是有關農業災害預防的氣象預測，目前有關農業氣象站的設置，請問在彰化縣有多少數量？"],["程署長家平：詳細的數字，我們平均的狀態大概是一個縣裡面有三十幾個自動站，至於彰化縣裡面農業氣象站的數量，我可能要稍微查一下，目前其實並不多，彰化彰裡面應該是大概4個……"],["陳委員素月：不多啦！"],["程署長家平：我的印象，詳細的數字我可能要再查一下。"],["陳委員素月：是，在今天的業務報告裡面你們也有提到未來的一個工作重點就是在114年預計完成的觀測系統，你們會再增加，在未來你們要持續增設的這100座的自動氣象站，有沒有規劃在彰化縣就這個部分再來增加？"],["程署長家平：有，在今天的報告裡面，前面的那個部分其實是一般的站，對於農業氣象站，我們的報告裡面有特別提到未來全臺會再增加150站，在彰化縣裡面會增加大概5站左右。"],["陳委員素月：5站？"],["程署長家平：對。"],["陳委員素月：那我們也希望這樣的觀測網能有更細緻地設置，能夠更準確的掌握氣象的變化，提供我們農友使用。","另外，氣象署跟農業部也在112年簽訂「農業氣象資訊服務及應用合作協議」，這樣一個協議簽訂之後，目前這個資訊是在我們氣象署可以看得到，還是在農業部？"],["程署長家平：這個資訊在氣象署的相關網站、在農業部的相關網站還有app上面都可以看得到，因為是雙方合作，我們用更多的管道把這個資訊傳播出去。除了基本的資料之外，還有一個很重要的部分，就是透過農業部的農民學員跟地方的農會合作，也在說明怎麼樣去運用這些資料來對地方相關的農事提供更好的訊息。"],["陳委員素月：對，就是資訊的提供之外，我覺得如何運用就是一個重點啦，因為畢竟有的農民也不知道怎麼去運用這個資訊，所以相關資訊的公布以及讓農民能夠知道的這個部分也是非常重要，所以這個部分也希望氣象署跟農業部能夠再密切配合。"],["程署長家平：是，我們繼續努力。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員發言完畢。","現在請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.85284375,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.90284375,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.602218750000006,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.462218750000005,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.132843750000006,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.07534375,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.66909375,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.25534375000001,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.35784375,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.99846875000001,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.16096875000002,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.66221875000002,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.26909375000002,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.13784375,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.98159375,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.78659375,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.33846875,"end":234.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.84659375,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.31034375000002,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.78909375,"end":255.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.36659375000002,"end":259.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.39971875000003,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.39096875,"end":264.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.31034375,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.38159375000004,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.81096875000003,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.55721875,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.55784375,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.99159375,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.05034375,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.05784375,"end":383.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.39721875000004,"end":389.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.96159375,"end":398.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.68596875000003,"end":402.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.21284375000005,"end":405.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.53721875,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.48971875,"end":421.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.75409375000004,"end":423.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.96034375000005,"end":425.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.95596875,"end":430.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.73159375,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.69284375,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.62409375000004,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.69159375000004,"end":444.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.64471875000004,"end":447.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.21409375,"end":454.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.13284375,"end":459.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.80721875,"end":463.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.53659375,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.26159375000003,"end":484.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.34346875000006,"end":497.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.23784375,"end":485.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.07971875000004,"end":500.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.56034375,"end":502.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.83846875000006,"end":504.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.81284375,"end":508.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.99784375,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.41096875000005,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.76034375,"end":518.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2240937500001,"end":551.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.9422187499999,"end":541.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.0459687499999,"end":557.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.98596875,"end":562.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.4578437499999,"end":575.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.5190937500001,"end":576.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.7509687500001,"end":577.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.6115937500001,"end":580.32846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.85,"end":6.531,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請氣象署陳署長請陳署長署長早安我們知道現在全球的這個氣候變遷所產生的極端氣候的現象這個頻率越來越高所以各領域對於整個氣象的這個資訊的一個需求"},{"start":31.235,"end":31.956,"text":"我先請教一下我們這個平台是什麼時候建制的?"},{"start":62.338,"end":75.841,"text":"這個資料開放平台其實在105年已經開始建置然後陸陸續續的增加是那我們目前這個平台啊所提供的資訊已經是我們所有氣象署所有的一個資訊嗎這個完整性如何"},{"start":76.874,"end":99.798,"text":"因為它是開放資料所以它並不是所有的資料因為有些資料其實非常需要比較深入的一些氣象技術所以對於那些比較需要深入的氣象需要深入的氣象技術的那些資料目前並沒有放在開放資料上面不過開放資料上面目前已經提供了7大類總共有529項的相關的資料"},{"start":102.839,"end":124.797,"text":"那在每個月所提供的這個資料的存取量其實是超過1億次所以在提供我們相關的民間還有產業界的應用存取事實上非常大量可是對於尚未開放的這些資料我們採取的是合作的方式來做進行那這個部分以後有可能開放嗎?"},{"start":127.812,"end":147.166,"text":"會 那我們其實在去年應該說前年推出了我們叫稱之為氣象資料氣象資源創新試用方案他其實是一個這個Sandbox的概念希望能夠進一步的來協助我們的民間產業界來用這些資料那因為這些資料比較複雜所以"},{"start":148.687,"end":176.941,"text":"他怎麼樣去使用會需要跟民間的產業去做相關的互動我們也期待透過這個氣象資源創新試用方案未來能夠identify能夠更明確的知道說到底哪些資料我們會適合開放給民間來做應用目前我們這個資料的開放平台就是說使用的人我們有沒有去做過統計目前的功效如何成效如何"},{"start":177.362,"end":178.228,"text":"我們有去做過這個評估吧"},{"start":180.425,"end":209.791,"text":"有目前我們提供相關的這個相關的使用對象其實我們是採用會員制我們目前的客戶大概有8萬多人那其實當8萬多人他不是都是很活躍的活躍的這個客戶大概是1000多每天每一天所下載的資料量剛剛有稍微報告大概是大概是1億次左右每個月每個月平均下載量大概是1億次左右"},{"start":210.345,"end":234.215,"text":"是我想這個氣象資料當然就是也有很專業性的一個部分可是對一些民眾來說他們也是希望取得跟他們生活上息息相關的一些資料然後所以這個資料的一個完整性跟準確性就非常的重要那剛剛聽署長的報告這個完整性應該是已經應該有九成"},{"start":234.955,"end":253.121,"text":"左右的這樣子的一個完整性那在準確性的方面我想就是這個也是我們氣象署一直在努力的一個部分那我們也看到今天的業務報告裡面你們有提到就是說在這個高速電腦第6代的高速電腦啟用之後未來你們也是會再啟動這個"},{"start":255.402,"end":276.861,"text":"第7代的這個高速電腦的一個計畫我想這個就是希望在整個未來氣象的一個預測上能夠更精準那其實本期自己的一個體驗就是在目前這兩年我發現我觀察到我們氣象在對於豪大於的預測的準確度我覺得是蠻"},{"start":277.501,"end":278.602,"text":"在未來第7代高速電腦跟第6代的差異會在哪裡?"},{"start":308.672,"end":327.517,"text":"主要的部分是算力的差異了當然還有一個很大的差別因為目前在氣象署內部的空間已經沒有辦法來承載更大的計算能量所以在未來我們的計畫目前正在報請行政院核定中"},{"start":328.357,"end":343.134,"text":"那會自己建立一個機房因為這些機房比較特殊不是一般的這個民間的這個我們講說IDC他能夠處理的譬如說他的冷卻系統需要特別他的樓板高度需要特別"},{"start":343.575,"end":367.756,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":368.561,"end":389.364,"text":"我看到這個第7代的高速電腦我們是預計是9年的一個期程那經費也高達了73.54億所以這個計畫你們是預計應該是下個會期就會提出這個預算規劃嗎是目前正在申請中那期待我們期待在今年可以獲得這個行政院的核定"},{"start":390.051,"end":411.564,"text":"是,好,我們也是希望就是說在這個氣象的一個預測上能夠更準確然後也能夠提供我們國人的一個使用各領域的一個使用,達到這個災害預防的一個成效以本席這個彰化縣是農業大縣所以我也是比較關心的有關這個農業災害的一個預防這個氣象的一個預測"},{"start":416.307,"end":423.13,"text":"目前有關這個農業氣象站的一個設置我們在彰化縣有多少數量?詳細的數字我們平均的狀態大概一個縣裡面大概有30幾個自動站那在彰化縣裡面的農業氣象站的數量我可能要稍微查一下目前其實並不多彰化縣裡面應該是大概4個"},{"start":443.863,"end":467.851,"text":"我印象對,詳細的數字我可能要再查一下是那今天的這個業務報告裡面你們有提到就是說未來的一個工作重點就是在114年要預計完成的觀測系統,你們會再增加那在未來你們要持續增設的這一百座的自動氣象站有沒有規劃在彰化縣就這個部分再來增加的部分"},{"start":468.511,"end":484.026,"text":"有,那在今天的報告裡面前面的那個部分其實是一般的站那對農業氣象站特別我們這個報告裡面特別有講到在未來會再增加150站全台在彰化縣裡面會增加大概5站左右"},{"start":485.706,"end":485.746,"text":"午戰．午戰．"},{"start":505.211,"end":518.057,"text":"簽訂了這個農業氣象資訊服務及應用合作協議那這樣子的一個協議簽訂之後目前這個資訊的話一樣是在我們的氣象署可以看得到還是在農業部"},{"start":519.306,"end":542.035,"text":"是這個資訊在氣象署的相關的網站以及在農業部相關的網站還有APP上面都可以看得到因為是雙方合作那我們用更多的這個管道把這個資訊傳播出去那除了基本的資料之外還有一個很重要的部分是透過農業部的農民學員跟地方的農會"},{"start":543.536,"end":551.228,"text":"去做合作那也在說明說怎麼樣去運用這些資料來對地方相關的農事來提供更好的訊息"},{"start":552.108,"end":552.328,"text":"謝謝陳委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a376e7d6472c030cc5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a61b9d0562b452a15f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:25:23 - 10:36:06","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":643,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:36:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:25:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時25分）謝謝主席昆澤召委。我們請氣象署先來。"],["主席：請程署長。"],["何委員欣純：程署長好。因為氣象其實是一個非常專業、非常科學的一件事。當然科學裡面有它的不科學，因為現在氣候變遷、變化實在太大了，但是我們人民生活當中還是最依賴氣象報告預測，我每天要來臺北開會之前，一定會打開 Google先看一下今天臺北的天氣，我用這樣子的前言開始，來表達氣象的預報，或者任何天災的預報，對人民的生活是最重要的，所以我看到你們花了15億做了一個超級電腦的設備更新，很高興！剛剛你回答李昆澤委員把超級電腦更新了之後，現在可以blah blah、可以做到如何，我聽了也覺得非常肯定，也覺得這是一定要投資的，但是超級電腦更新、投資了之後，一切就會變得更精準、變得更美好嗎？署長。"],["程署長家平：當然不是只有硬體，軟體的部分也需要，其實除了軟體的部分之外，還有相關人員的部分以及我們的傳播力。"],["何委員欣純：人的問題嘛，對不對？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["何委員欣純：因為所有資料跑出來的數據還是要透過人來做精準的判斷，或是要透過經驗值的累積來做判斷，所以第一個我們要投資設備，第二個要投資人。署長，你認為現在署裡面的專業人才夠不夠？或者是說臺灣在這一方面培訓的專業人才夠不夠？"],["程署長家平：以政府組織來看，因為我們的政府組織是小而能的政府，不過我們的民眾對政府的期待是大的政府。"],["何委員欣純：期待很高喔！是的。"],["程署長家平：為了要滿足民眾的期待，其實我們目前透過不僅僅是交通部，也有國科會相關計畫的支持，我們再大量運用民間的資源，有關資訊的部分，其實有跟民間廠商合作。另外，還有我們的學研單位，其實也扮演相當相當重要的角色，在這個部分去做相關的精進發展。除了我們民間的部分，還有一個部分是國際合作，因為氣象預測這件事情，它要能夠進步其實是透過整個國際的合作，並不是只有區域的進步，區域的進步只能解決區域的問題，可是因為我們的天氣系統都是從外部進來的……"],["何委員欣純：它是連動性的。"],["程署長家平：如果我們對外部天氣系統的掌握不足，其實在內部、在進到臺灣的區域之後，它預報的準確度也會降低，所以這需要同時來進行，相關的部分的確人的素質非常非常重要，不僅僅是在署裡面的人力，也包含我們的新血，就是我們的學研單位怎麼去培養相關的人力，以及我們氣象產業的部分。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼會問這個問題？第一個，人的生活最密切關心的是我們的氣象還有各種天災的預測。因為我有爬梳到媒體曾經報導過，之前我們有兩次地震的預測是有一點失靈的，我看到那一則新聞就馬上想到，第一個，當時的氣象署回應媒體說這是系統上的誤判，系統本身是硬體，會誤判的是誰？也許有很多可能性啦，我是希望你給我一個書面報告，我是提醒，你們除了在硬體的投資要提升之外，有科研、產官學、其他的合作跟國際合作之外，你們自己本身人的素質、人的專業、經驗值的累積與傳承，這很重要！這很重要！這是第一點提醒。","為什麼我會這麼關心氣象署的這些事情？因為氣象署要能夠更進一步地進行跨部會的合作，因為全臺灣甚至區域合作的部分，只要有關氣象、天災，大家都想到氣象署，所以你們要扮演一個很重要、很重要、很關鍵的角色。我接下來就要講說你們要跨部會，因為我知道交通部觀光署跟你們有一個MOU，你們有跨部會，這個在生活中的應用很好，雖然這個平臺我剛剛早上試了一下有點卡卡，我覺得氣象署跟觀光署你們自己去檢討，交通部次長你可以督促一下。","第一個，生活應用的觀光氣象隨選平臺到底好不好用、到底夠不夠生活化，符合一般人的習慣跟需求？第三個，使用率到底高不高？我常常看到很多政府部會弄了很多app，但是使用率不高，因為也沒宣傳，也沒多少人知道。我之所以點出這個，是說氣象署重不重要？很重要！氣象關係著生活，我們要更應用、更生活化，那前提是什麼？要精準，也不能被人家罵，大家常常罵說我們臺灣的氣象預報不怎麼準，對不對？我剛剛講的是地震的一個預測失準，就被人家拿出來說了，我們也應該要檢討。氣象的預報當然也希望更精準、更生活化，讓人民的使用更高、更信任、更信賴，甚至認為我們氣象署的氣象預報真的是權威中的權威，對不對？所以我覺得這是我在提醒。","我接著就要問了，氣象署除了跟觀光署簽MOU，還有跟其他哪些單位簽MOU？"],["程署長家平：目前氣象署有跟25個中央和地方政府簽訂了MOU，除了25個中央和地方相關的政府機關之外，還有16個防災相關的學研單位以及民間的產業。"],["何委員欣純：是，那產業是因為產官學嘛！就剛剛你一開始所講的，必須要大家合作，然後才能夠培育人才，甚至能夠豐富氣象科學的相關能量嘛！那我就要問，有簽MOU跟沒有簽MOU的差別在哪裡？"],["程署長家平：有簽MOU就是代表雙方有更高的意願，我們可以坐下來真正去討論深度的應用，讓氣象資訊能夠協助相關政府單位去做決策，而不是一般型的氣象資訊，那一般型的氣象資訊……"],["何委員欣純：是，所以我看到一些關鍵的部會，包括剛剛其他委員關心的農業，包括我們的災防，可能就是內政部之類的，或者是水利署，這些可能是一個關鍵性，對我們人民生活當中的生命財產非常重要，需要精準的預測系統，所以要更高強度的跟你們合作。那也有一些地方政府，我看到的是新北市政府、桃園市政府跟雲林縣政府有跟你們合作；其他的地方政府沒有，沒有簽MOU。"],["程署長家平：對。"],["何委員欣純：我只是在點出說如果簽MOU可以更高強度的應用、合作的話，我覺得我們應該積極的去擴展，因為我們在各個縣市也好，或是其他公部門也好，都需要。","我再點出一個，因為我時間不夠，我為什麼要再點這個？因為軍民合用的機場，軍方它有它自己的氣象聯隊，所以它負責軍民合用機場的天氣服務，你們沒有跟它簽，它也沒跟你們簽，所以我是認為啦！我知道在純民航的機場裡面……民航局是我們次長的專業。民航局有自己的一個獨特的單位、特別的單位、專業的單位，在負責自己的氣象，但是民航局有跟氣象署來簽MOU，所以是高強度的合作跟應用；那軍民合用機場目前聽說沒有，署長，對不對？"],["程署長家平：這個部分其實是有的，我們跟空軍氣象聯隊是有簽長期的合作協議。"],["何委員欣純：是長期的合作協議，所以不是所謂的MOU？"],["程署長家平：對，所以沒有特別針對每一個機場來簽，因為空軍的氣象……"],["何委員欣純：一個一個機場的簽嗎？"],["程署長家平：所以沒有特別針對每一個機場。"],["何委員欣純：所以交通部不能直接跟國防部一起來做這樣子的合作嗎？"],["程署長家平：可以。"],["何委員欣純：次長，你要不要回答？因為這個跟民航、跟機場有關係，是次長的專業。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員還有各位報告，我昨天在看這資料我也覺得怎麼公路局沒有，所以其實不是簽MOU才有合作，各位記得我們早期在公路劇烈天候，那個上下游的封路跟管理早就有合作計畫，所以可能我們要考慮的是氣象署會行政協助各單位，但是簽MOU似乎不是必要啦！因為您提到的，很多單位已經有合作計畫或是行政協助，那如果都簽MOU，幾乎全國都得簽。"],["何委員欣純：所以次長，我覺得你應該是協助氣象署去盤點嘛！其實氣象的各項資料要應用在生活的每個層面，幾乎跟各個部門都有關係。"],["林次長國顯：瞭解，我們再盤點一下，我昨天看好像公路局也沒有在裡面……"],["何委員欣純：所以要盤點一下，我覺得如果像次長你講的，是不是簽MOU不是那麼重要，那簽MOU又是為什麼？"],["林次長國顯：因為合作計畫有些是已經在執行。"],["何委員欣純：是啦！我是覺得應該可以……氣象署已經升格了，然後氣象署又投資了這些硬體設備，還有我們人的提升……"],["林次長國顯：我們再盤點一下看怎麼做。"],["何委員欣純：所以我覺得能量應該是可以更強，去跟其他部會做合作，然後甚至各個機場不是一一簽嘛！交通部自己內部就直接可以去協調啦！是不是？"],["林次長國顯：瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得合作是為了要：第一個，生活更方便；第二個，更安全、更能精準地預測，保障一切的安全。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，我們鐵路都有，高鐵也有，海空都有……"],["何委員欣純：都有嘛！"],["林次長國顯：觀光也有，所以這個其實是全面性的。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，何委員發言完畢。","現在處理臨時提案，本日計有一案，請議事人員宣讀。","案由","鑒於氣象署去年升格，並將推動台灣氣象產業發展為其中一項重點工作，經查美國、日本等先進國家，隨著科技技術提升和資訊透明，促成民間氣象產業蓬勃發展，除了創造可觀產值，亦有利於國家和社會大眾正視及因應未來極端天氣所產生的災害和風險，綜上，氣象資訊與各行業營運及民眾日常生活皆有密切的關係，未來國內氣象服務業者若能參考國際經驗，營造廣泛應用氣象資訊的氛圍，透過合作共同開發氣象產品與服務，除能增加產值外，同時亦能帶動氣象產業之發展。為營造我國氣象產業發展的有利環境，建請氣象署應持續與產官學研交流溝通，檢討及盤點氣象法及相關法規修正必要，以促進氣象業務健全發展，強化氣象科技研發，開創氣象服務，完善氣象產業與人才培育環境，並於一個月內將該報告送立法院交通委員會。","提案人：蔡其昌　　徐富癸　　李昆澤"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.65534375,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.914718750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.25909375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.57409375,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.132843750000006,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.99721875,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.96784375,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.30846875,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.09659375000001,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.67159375000001,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.07096875,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.40409375,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.87659375000001,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.95534375,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.82784375,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.17409375000003,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.94159375,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.72596875000002,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.85784375000003,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.06596875,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.35096875,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.55034375,"end":297.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.45284375,"end":300.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":308.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.33284375,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.77346875,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.29596875000004,"end":346.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.39034375,"end":347.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.83721875000003,"end":358.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.16471875,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.75096875,"end":367.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.04096875000005,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.57034375,"end":383.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.58659375,"end":387.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.09284375000004,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.76346875,"end":389.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.75909375000003,"end":390.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.50096875,"end":394.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.85534375000003,"end":394.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.41159375,"end":399.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.59721875,"end":399.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.63096875,"end":404.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.74909375000004,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.25034375,"end":421.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.55159375000005,"end":421.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.65284375000005,"end":426.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.66971875,"end":421.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.88909375000003,"end":423.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.64784375000005,"end":449.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.53159375,"end":441.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.70034375,"end":441.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.23909375000005,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.89284375000005,"end":463.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.38221875000005,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.12721875000005,"end":475.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.47971875,"end":477.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.66909375000006,"end":485.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.21659375,"end":487.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.46096875,"end":489.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.35096875000005,"end":492.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.22409375,"end":502.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.56409375000004,"end":504.52596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.81284375,"end":516.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.49034375,"end":516.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.51971875,"end":520.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.2153437500001,"end":522.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.68346875,"end":528.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.97846875,"end":525.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.8090937500001,"end":531.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.8215937500001,"end":537.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.89659375,"end":536.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.48721875,"end":538.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.59659375,"end":541.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.82409375,"end":544.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.65471875,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.02596875,"end":546.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.6965937500001,"end":547.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.8103437500001,"end":551.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.13909375,"end":554.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.33659375,"end":562.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.93034375,"end":564.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.75284375,"end":565.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.6809687500001,"end":567.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.3347187500001,"end":572.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.7009687500001,"end":579.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.51846875,"end":579.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.53534375,"end":599.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.78846875,"end":582.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.33221875,"end":583.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.33971875,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.48721875,"end":595.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.31284375,"end":602.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.83971875,"end":632.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.3797187499999,"end":603.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.3659687500001,"end":612.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.2009687500001,"end":614.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.4409687500001,"end":617.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.3772187500001,"end":622.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.83659375,"end":624.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.8103437500001,"end":629.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.66659375,"end":635.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.03721875,"end":635.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.9990937499999,"end":636.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.18471875,"end":638.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.70346875,"end":639.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.4709687500001,"end":641.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.5678437500001,"end":642.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.05721875,"end":642.7153437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.694,"end":3.142,"text":"好謝謝主席昆喆召委我們請氣象署先來陳署長"},{"start":15.447,"end":32.923,"text":"陳署長好,氣象其實是一個非常專業、非常科學的一件事當然科學裡面有它的不科學因為現在氣候變化實在太大了但是我們人民生活當中還是最依賴氣象"},{"start":34.645,"end":34.665,"text":"報告預測﹖"},{"start":54.059,"end":77.209,"text":"看到我們花了15億有一個超級電腦更新設備很高興剛剛你回答李昆哲委員再回答他把超級電腦我們更新了之後現在可以做到如何我聽了我也覺得非常肯定也覺得說這是一定要投資的但是呢超級電腦更新投資了之後一切就會變得更精準變得更美好嗎?署長"},{"start":80.137,"end":107.05,"text":"當然不是只有硬體軟體的部分也需要其實除了軟體的部分之外還有相關的人員部分以及我們的傳播力因為所有的資料跑出來的數據還是要透過人來做精準的判斷或是經驗值的累積來做判斷所以第一個我們投資設備第二個要投資人那署長你認為你現在署裡面的專業人才夠不夠"},{"start":107.95,"end":134.988,"text":"或者是說臺灣在這一方面的培訓的專業人才夠不夠以政府組織來看因為我們的政府組織是小兒人的政府不過我們的民眾對我們政府的期待是很大的政府那為了要滿足民眾的期待其實我們目前其實透過不僅僅是這個交通部也有國客會相關的計畫的支持那我們在大量運用民間的資源"},{"start":136.289,"end":165.05,"text":"那有關資訊的部分其實有跟民間常常合作另外還有我們的學院單位其實也扮演相當相當重要的角色在這個部分去做相關的這經濟發展那除了我們民間的部分還有一個部分是國際合作因為氣象預測的這件事情它要能夠進步其實是透過整個國際的合作並不是只有區域的進步區域的進步只能解決區域的問題可是因為我們的天氣系統都是從外部進來的"},{"start":165.951,"end":191.756,"text":"如果我們對外部天氣系統的掌握不足其實在內部進到這個台灣的區域之後他的預報的準確度也會降低所以這需要同時來進行那相關的部分的確人的素質非常非常重要不僅僅是在署裡面的人力也包含我們的心血就是我們的學研單位怎麼去培養我們相關的人力以及我們的氣象產業的部分"},{"start":192.479,"end":217.037,"text":"我為什麼會問這個問題第一個他是關心人的生活最密切關心的是氣象還有各種天災的預測因為我有爬出到這個媒體曾經報導過之前我們有兩次的這個地震的一個預測是有一點失靈的那我看到那則新聞我就馬上想到第一個當時的氣象署是回應媒體說這是系統上的誤判"},{"start":218.239,"end":221.756,"text":"那系統本身是硬體會誤判的是誰?"},{"start":224.384,"end":224.624,"text":"為什麼會這麼關心氣象署?"},{"start":249.167,"end":273.667,"text":"的這些事情因為呢氣象署是能夠更進一步的需要跨部會的合作因為呢全台灣甚至的區域合作的有關氣象天災大家都想到氣象署所以你們要扮演一個很重要很重要很關鍵的一個角色我接下來就講說你們要跨部會因為我知道交通部觀光署跟你們有一個MOU你們要跨部會"},{"start":274.728,"end":299.899,"text":"這個在生活中的應用很好雖然這個平台我剛剛早上試了一下有點卡卡那個我覺得氣象署跟觀光署你們自己去檢討啦這在交通部次長你可以督促一下第一個這個生活應用的這個觀光氣象的水選平台到底好不好用到底夠不夠生活化符合一般人的一個習慣跟需求"},{"start":300.859,"end":323.789,"text":"第三個這個使用率到底高不高我常常看到很多政府部會弄了很多APP但是使用率不高因為也沒宣傳也沒多少人知道那我之所以點出這個是說氣象署重不重要很重要氣象關係的生活我們要更應用更生活化那前提是什麼要精準"},{"start":325.648,"end":346.962,"text":"也不能說我們台灣的氣象預報也沒什麼準我剛剛講的是地震的一個預測失準就被人家拿出來說了嘛那我們也應該要檢討那氣象的預報當然也希望更精準、更生活化使用讓人民的使用更高、更信任、更信賴"},{"start":348.908,"end":359.896,"text":"甚至認為說我們氣象署的氣象預報真的是權威中的權威所以我覺得這個是我在提醒除了跟氣象署簽MOU還有跟其他哪些單位簽MOU"},{"start":368.306,"end":377.372,"text":"目前氣象署有跟25個中央和地方政府簽訂了MOU除了25個中央和地方相關的政府機關之外還有16個防災相關的學員單位以及民間的產業"},{"start":387.199,"end":389.181,"text":"有簽MOU跟沒有簽MOU的差別在哪裡?"},{"start":405.763,"end":420.583,"text":"有簽MOU就是代表雙方有更高的意願我們可以坐下來真正去討論深度的應用讓氣象資訊能夠協助相關政府單位去做決策而不是一般型的氣象資訊"},{"start":421.724,"end":450.824,"text":"是,所以我看到一些關鍵的部位包括剛剛其他委員關心的農業包括我們的災防可能就是內政部之類的或者是水利署這些可能是一個關鍵性對我們人民生活當中的生命財產非常重要需要精準的預測系統所以要更高強度的跟你們合作那也有一些地方政府我看到的是新北市政府、桃園市政府跟雲林縣政府有跟你們合作其他的地方政府沒有沒有簽MOU"},{"start":452.404,"end":477.437,"text":"我只是在點出說如果MOU可以更高強度的應用的話合作的話那我覺得我們應該積極的去擴展因為呢我們在各個縣市也好或是其他公部門也好都需要都需要我再點出一個因為我時間不夠我為什麼會再點這個因為呢軍民合用的機場"},{"start":480.047,"end":489.078,"text":"軍方他有他自己的氣象連隊所以他負責這個軍民合用機場的天氣服務你們沒有跟他簽他也沒跟你們簽"},{"start":490.45,"end":516.025,"text":"所以我是認為我知道在純民航的機場裡面民航局這個是我們次長的專業民航局有自己的一個獨特的單位特別的單位專業的單位在負責這個氣象但是民航局有跟氣象署來簽MOU所以是高強度的合作跟應用"},{"start":517.586,"end":518.447,"text":"市長你要不要回答?"},{"start":547.884,"end":572.084,"text":"因為這個跟民航跟機場有關係這次長的專業我昨天在看這資料我也覺得公路局也沒有所以其實不是簽MOU才有合作各位記得我們早期在公路劇烈簽後那個上下游的封路跟管理早就有合作計劃所以可能我們要考慮的是氣象署會行政協助各單位"},{"start":572.785,"end":602.245,"text":"但是簽MOU似乎不是必要啦因為您提到的很多單位已經有合作計畫或是行政協助所以市長我覺得你應該是協助氣象所去盤點嘛其實氣象的各項的資料他要應用的在生活的每個層面幾乎跟各個部門都有關係所以要盤點一下我覺得如果像市長你講的是不是簽MOU不是那麼重要那又簽MOU又為什麼因為合作計畫有些是已經在執行"},{"start":602.925,"end":611.929,"text":"是啦我是覺得應該可以氣象署已經升格了然後氣象署又投資了這些硬體設備還有我們的提升所以我覺得能量應該是可以更強然後去跟其他部會做合作然後甚至各個機場不是一一簽嗎交通部跟"},{"start":620.273,"end":620.733,"text":"何委員發言"}]}},{"id":"149972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aeb23635d16fbf25f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6be43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:47:35 - 11:01:52","影片長度":"00:14:17","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":857,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:01:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:47:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1010,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時47分）有請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員月琴：上個禮拜國人最關注的應該就是剴剴案。這一案我看到地方政府與社福團體互踢皮球的醜態，也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞，導致問題一再發生！我來自兒少團體，這一案的許多沉痾，我已倡議多年，可是悲劇仍不斷發生，難道直到生命消失，我們政府才願意改善嗎？這陣子有人對我說，不要再罵兒盟，或不要批評地方政府！但我是從民間團體走進立法院，站在這裡，我要找出問題，解決問題，不會因為過去長官或者因交情而退讓，這是我捍衛孩子的價值！所以在這邊我要說，兒盟不是第一次，早在108年就有了，所以到底還有多少個剴剴？108年新竹縣的珮珮在保母家離開了，一樣是兒盟安置的孩子。才安置兩個多月，孩子除了感冒，頭部還有不明挫傷。同樣是弱勢家庭，當時兒盟也表示這是合格保母，之前有帶過小孩，最後反而拿捐款的錢來賠償！所以陳情人告訴我，他是弱勢家庭，根本無力對抗一個機構，且當時也同樣說是合格保母。如果有人因為剴剴案辭了兒盟的董事，那從頭到尾都沒有看到他為這麼多年產生的兒少死傷來道歉。我也要問政府，這5年間，從108年直到剴剴案，政府到底有沒有掌握相同的狀況？其實我手上現在還有兩、三案！一樣是安置在保母家，被不當對待後再轉到其他保母家！如果安置持續一直有兒虐的狀況發生，如果地方政府假設不通報，機構又隱匿，那衛福部要怎麼處理？請問一下部長，地方隱瞞，然後機構又隱瞞，請問一下，中央要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，所以這個部分就是要有第二層的監督機制，也就是說，因為這種全日托的，他的家屬就沒有辦法去，或者說根本本來就無力去處理了，所以他才需要全日托，而全日托這種情形的話，一定要有個別不同來源的監督角色的人進來，才能夠double check，不然的話，這個很容易就是……"],["林委員月琴：對，我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層，如果地方政府又持續隱瞞，抱歉，衛福部你很難知道，衛福部要怎麼去管控地方政府的責任？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個都隱瞞的機率其實是不大，但是這個中間有人疏忽，或者是說沒有……"],["林委員月琴：可是我手頭上就有好幾案了，而且都是來自這個出養單位的，所以我請部長再來看看剴剴事件的時間表，到底出了什麼事情？按照我們的規定，直轄縣市和我們運用居托人員家外安置的處理原則，本來就是要依居家托育保母登記管理辦法，找到所謂的訪視輔導良好的保母，我們來看4月17日，聽說這個保母也是兒盟叫他去登記的，他過去本來就沒有想要帶小孩，他在110年7月16號就拿到登記證了，然後111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得登記證，然後11月10號拿到了，可是要訪視輔導良好的話，4月17日收托第一個小孩，可是僅17天兒盟安置的第二個小孩就送進來，他的訪視輔導良好嗎？按照法規，所以要問政府怎麼去督管，不到20天就接第二案，劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎？誰允許的？可是法規不允許啊！機構送孩子去安置，有通知居托中心嗎？從頭到尾兩邊都不互通，不管是文山居托中心，甚至兒盟的這個社工完全不互通，各自做各自的，也要再問的是，為什麼一般保母都已經是不預告訪視了，為什麼不預告訪視？至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的，可是畢竟是在保母家，所以沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看，所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視，可是兒盟卻採行預告訪視。整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎？都沒有在問孩子，孩子不是貨物，誰說了算？可是兒權公約明明就很明顯地告訴我們，兒童最佳利益為優先考量，所以也要問的是，部長未來怎麼去管控？本來這個阿嬤的情形就是，他請求的是什麼？他請求的是委託安置，為什麼新北市評估、評估、再不過，他要帶姐姐，然後父母又不見了，這個阿嬤已經負擔過，他本來就沒有要出養，他說他要委託安置，可是為什麼地方政府評估的……所以我想問部長，這到底誰說了算？要不要出養到底是誰說了算？是兒盟說了算？還是地方政府說了算？地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎？我相信新北市不會缺錢，還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的，第一點，這些是要做委託安置還是要去做出養，這個事情不能讓媒合機構去決定，這是第一點。"],["林委員月琴：所以也要問部長，未來如何督管地方政府？否則阿嬤本來就只是缺錢，他可以照顧，他甚至委託安置就OK的，可是卻強行說要來出養，就送到所謂出養前的安置。再來，第二個，在出養等待期，為什麼不繼續安置原照顧的周姓保母？他非常符合法規喔！依照你們的法規，他是符合的，新北市如果要去做這樣決定的時候，誰又可以去管控？如果大家都不管控的時候，最後最倒楣的就是孩子。我們2014年就簽訂兒權公約國內法化的時候，怎麼會大家都沒有看到？不管是機構，不管是地方政府，從頭到尾到底看到孩子的權益了嗎？等待期的安置條文在哪裡？這麼多年了，沒有看到。為什麼兒盟講說它跟劉姓保母簽約？他也不符合這些規定啊！為什麼沒有更好的評估？而且對他的評估是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這也是我們這次必須要去檢討的對象，也就是說，當這個個案到底應該由誰來決定安置的方法跟由誰來做安置，以後我們就是都走委託安置這個流程，而不是由媒合機構去做決定。"],["林委員月琴：我希望中央真的要針對地方政府沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好，對於機構沒做好的，否則珮珮死了，然後再來一個剴剴死，我們有一天還要站在質詢臺上提到又有哪個孩子死亡嗎？又因為出養前的安置嗎？所以誰應該主動聯絡，我也不知道，而劉姓保母跟居托中心，居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話，沒有接過兒盟的電話，各做各的，所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題，所以不知道為什麼……請定出全部都採行不預告訪視才是符合的，所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼，請政策把它補起來。","首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據，不是誰說了算，要有一個評估，而且如果要委託安置就應該讓他委託安置，因為我們還是認為親權是重要的，他跟他父母事實上是……兒權公約也講說，不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的，怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做，讓他硬生生的要去出養？所以請把這個處理好來，甚至是等待期，我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據，所以等待期從108年……我們要還這兩個孩子的命一個回應，讓他的命有所代價，不是任由機構、任由地方政府這樣做，而且中間……我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐，這些孩子的傷要跟誰講？","第二個就是應該強制地方政府建立訪視輔導狀況良好的名單，到底這些名單怎麼來的？為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最瞭解保母的居托中心？所以居托中心很多時候都是接到……小孩原來安置在我這個保母家，可是對於這個保母，我覺得他不太好，因為有些保母小事不斷、大事不犯，甚至有些保母有超收，問題是你抓不到他，居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保母，可是我們卻任由出養機構找了這些保母，所以一而再，再而三的發生事情，所以是不是把這樣的名單建置好，讓孩子到一個有愛心且能夠去照顧他們的地方，畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣，事實上，他是365天、24小時待在一個保母家，如果沒有另外一個監管機制的話，我覺得等於是把孩子推入另外一個火坑。","第三，本來就有跨區處理原則，所以部長，我要問的是，你怎麼讓地方不踢皮球？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上，以這個案子來講，可能也不是說踢皮球，是大家都沒有做，兩個縣市都有沒有做的地方，比方說，第一個，新北市這邊對於出養的決定，它沒有去處理……"],["林委員月琴：所以我就看到新北市跟臺北市也好，兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊！可是對於孩子，到底誰要來處理這些事情呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這就是我們這次檢討的結果，我們發現了問題，我們也希望未來地方政府負起該負的責任，這不是說中央在推託，而是如果問題是出在地方，地方必須要能夠改善，中央會來督導。"],["林委員月琴：是不是清楚的……因為9月1號他就在劉姓保母家居住，就在臺北市了，法規已經很清楚了，所以也請你督促未來各級機關不要再互相推諉，該怎麼做就怎麼做。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，在選擇保母的部分，剛剛委員有提到，為什麼要轉換保母？這就是一個問題，第二個，如果要轉換保母，為什麼不能在當地去找？新北市也不會說完全沒有保母，為什麼一定要跑到臺北市？結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去，這都是要檢討的。"],["林委員月琴：好，衛福部本來就有訂定原則，又有發函，縣市政府為什麼不督管？未來是不是可以訂定相關辦法、罰則，否則很明確的5月31日就行文各地方政府，他們不做，那中央到底要怎麼做？還是一樣，沒有辦法選擇合格的保母，沒有辦法進行好的防治來防堵下一個生命受損！所以請部長針對各類處理原則提高法律強制度，在你們擬定之後送進來，希望不要再有下一個「剴剴」。應該講從「佩佩」走到「剴剴」，中間還有受傷的孩子，請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據，還有改善兒童出養前，也就是等待期的照顧，修訂家外安置處理原則，位階不要這麼低，這樣根本處理不了事情，如果我們號稱兒童權利公約已經國內法化，誓言要保護孩子，怎麼會坐視這些事情不斷發生？尤其一個安置機構的董事說他3月11日才看到報告、才知道這些事情，而1月9日保母已經是聲押的狀態，如果機構不能管控的話，你們能夠繼續把孩子委託在那邊嗎？我們孩子的權益又在哪裡？再來是訂定居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構共案的準則，還有明定家外兒童虐待處遇的主責機構。這個事件從去年12月發生，剛剛部長也說明到現在機構報告都還沒有交過來，過去一直說要捍衛孩子權益的單位，它過去的董事在質詢時也坐在這邊，可是竟然沒有捍衛我們孩子的權益，所以請儘速把報告送上來，以上。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林月琴委員的質詢。","接下來我們請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.87346875,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.54221875,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.945968750000002,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.720968750000004,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.03721875,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.28909375,"end":55.110968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.36409375,"end":60.899093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.06784375,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.84221875,"end":75.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.52971875,"end":78.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.66846875,"end":81.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.95409375,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.57846875,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.07596875,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.90659375,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.53096875,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.63096875000001,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.60471875,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.04346875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.02221875000001,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.21971875,"end":149.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.30721875,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.17096875000001,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.72784375,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.44909375,"end":166.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.67159375,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.12284375000002,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.02034375000002,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.26471875000001,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.84971875000002,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.70596875,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.93346875,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.50284375,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.32096875000002,"end":196.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.86096875,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.57784375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.48909375000002,"end":201.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.51846875,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.46284375000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.51284375,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.45346875,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.52096875,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.55471875,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.79096875000002,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.86221875,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.81909375,"end":222.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.69659375,"end":227.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.60284375,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.11721875,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.22721875,"end":265.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.33534375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.89596875,"end":304.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.19846875,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.22784375000003,"end":307.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.86471875,"end":308.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.13034375,"end":310.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.30721875,"end":313.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.17596875000004,"end":316.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.87596875,"end":318.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.12034375,"end":328.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":346.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.26784375,"end":354.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.76034375,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.13534375,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.07909375,"end":368.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.42909375000005,"end":371.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.02346875,"end":380.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.16971875,"end":382.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.58284375000005,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.59034375000005,"end":394.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.77096875,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.44096875,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.06534375,"end":410.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.03846875000005,"end":428.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.01034375,"end":432.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.87471875000006,"end":442.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.89159375,"end":433.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.49346875000003,"end":447.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.19721875000005,"end":457.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.37284375,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.76096875,"end":464.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.73471875,"end":466.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.51909375,"end":470.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.91096875000005,"end":480.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.96846875000006,"end":485.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.52034375000005,"end":517.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.8740937499999,"end":518.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.29159375,"end":521.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.0590937500001,"end":523.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.0165937500001,"end":527.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.2690937500001,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.5047187499999,"end":543.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.5747187500001,"end":554.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.91471875,"end":563.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.0947187500001,"end":565.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.59659375,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.72721875,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9922187500001,"end":578.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.88534375,"end":581.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.8134687500001,"end":591.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.2465937500001,"end":595.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.22471875,"end":607.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.53096875,"end":612.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.5047187499999,"end":621.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.64346875,"end":616.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.85784375,"end":647.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.9422187499999,"end":652.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.07221875,"end":656.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.14346875,"end":658.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.7634687500001,"end":661.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.6784687500001,"end":668.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.95596875,"end":672.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.46596875,"end":678.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.0734687500001,"end":673.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.67596875,"end":681.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.4897187500001,"end":688.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.3959687500001,"end":690.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.72471875,"end":704.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.78284375,"end":697.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.1359687500001,"end":721.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.4709687500001,"end":727.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.71471875,"end":730.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.95471875,"end":731.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.6297187499999,"end":732.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.76034375,"end":735.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.1015937500001,"end":740.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.97846875,"end":741.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.07971875,"end":741.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.9740937500001,"end":742.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.66596875,"end":755.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.0478437500001,"end":764.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.10971875,"end":781.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.13659375,"end":789.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.61221875,"end":791.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.0759687500001,"end":794.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.96159375,"end":796.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.35784375,"end":801.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.96471875,"end":807.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.3772187500001,"end":818.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.45159375,"end":831.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.0359687500002,"end":844.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.5022187500001,"end":854.41221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.005,"end":35.236,"text":"有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體"},{"start":36.361,"end":65.266,"text":"這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓"},{"start":65.936,"end":86.527,"text":"這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。"},{"start":87.711,"end":87.731,"text":"陳秦嵐"},{"start":111.421,"end":135.71,"text":"當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在"},{"start":136.19,"end":158.695,"text":"一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?"},{"start":159.842,"end":167.149,"text":"跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說"},{"start":168.188,"end":192.905,"text":"因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠double check不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果"},{"start":196.943,"end":224.936,"text":"地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市"},{"start":226.55,"end":226.95,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":256.432,"end":281.349,"text":"9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案"},{"start":282.79,"end":303.492,"text":"劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。"},{"start":305.27,"end":326.189,"text":"也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視"},{"start":331.718,"end":354.175,"text":"整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置"},{"start":354.835,"end":380.244,"text":"那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎"},{"start":383.638,"end":396.173,"text":"所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定"},{"start":400.732,"end":401.693,"text":"在出養等待期"},{"start":418.888,"end":420.629,"text":"從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?"},{"start":448.443,"end":457.452,"text":"這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼"},{"start":458.37,"end":459.971,"text":"我希望中央真的要針對地方政府"},{"start":486.587,"end":514.349,"text":"沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題"},{"start":516.531,"end":531.431,"text":"所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據"},{"start":532.537,"end":547.168,"text":"不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的"},{"start":547.788,"end":571.297,"text":"那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間"},{"start":572.117,"end":578.42,"text":"我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心"},{"start":596.297,"end":620.664,"text":"所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆"},{"start":621.892,"end":647.808,"text":"一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以"},{"start":650.134,"end":661.181,"text":"事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做"},{"start":662.708,"end":681.757,"text":"所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?"},{"start":682.943,"end":711.37,"text":"所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以"},{"start":711.749,"end":721.476,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":721.618,"end":741.765,"text":"在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的"},{"start":742.865,"end":743.166,"text":"所以這也請部長"},{"start":767.168,"end":781.01,"text":"整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子"},{"start":782.719,"end":804.544,"text":"請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?"},{"start":806.365,"end":831.568,"text":"尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的"},{"start":832.168,"end":832.188,"text":"主責機構．"}]}},{"id":"149971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a22d403a032d1949c87ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a661cd8283283c7cb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:44:53 - 10:55:36","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":643,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:55:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:44:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時45分）主席好，有請部長。部長辛苦了。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：在進入今天的校園安全主題之前，其實有一件事情會稍微比較緊急，所以我在這邊可能就要先幫很多的小朋友還有他們的家長，甚至還有很多的幼兒園園所來幫他們問一下。就是我們知道今年我們的準公幼即將在8月就要上路了。"],["潘部長文忠：第三期。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，第三期的部分。當然教育部國教署其實之前也提到第三期的一個草案，但是有很多所謂的退場機制，包含師生比可能如果不符合規定，或者是這個學校在3年之內曾經有什麼樣的事故的話，可能他們就必須要被退出這樣子的一個市場機制。因為有很多人、很多園所到最近才接到必須被退場，那等於讓很多的園所會一下子措手不及，這也是他們碰到的一些問題。相對來講，其實影響最大的還是我們一般的家庭跟這些幼教生，這個部分我不曉得部長您這邊知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我瞭解，我跟委員報告，因為現在第三期的訂約條件目前還沒有定案下來，因為各界包含家長、教保人員的待遇、家長的期待以及教保服務品質等等，還有包含剛才委員提到的師生比1比12怎麼進行的期程，所以這個還沒有定案，那也沒有所謂……"],["郭委員昱晴：可是8月就要上路了。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告一下，所以也沒有所謂現在哪個學校是退場或等等的，目前整個都已經蒐集了相關的資料，在3月底就會正式把這一方面做定案跟對外公布，縣市才可以依據這個來做縣市內有意參與準公幼的後續訂約事項。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我相信應該本來的私立幼兒園也很願意能夠參加所謂的準公幼，但是因為現在我們看到的、我目前所收到的一些陳情，包含桃園市開了第一槍，等於他們開了第一槍之後，全臺灣可能有大概上萬的小朋友跟上萬的家庭會受到這第三期的影響。也就是說因為您剛剛有提到是3月底之前，其實沒剩幾天了，真的來得及嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：來得及。我跟委員報告，因為在規劃的過程為了確保教保服務的品質，過去也有部分的幼兒園有出現管理不當，甚至教保人員去虐待管教孩子的事情，這個也是社會要求的……"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我聽到有很多其實願意加入準公幼，他們本來在私立的幼兒園也經營了大概二、三十年，都是非常優質的，但是這個政策一出來的時候，其實會……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，基本上政府一定會非常歡迎私幼能夠在符合我們規範的條件下成為一起加入的夥伴……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為最直接影響到的其實就是家長對於學費的部分，因為我們大概知道如果是私幼的話，其實他們平均每個月的費學大概是從6,000到1萬2,000，但是如果是到了他們被退出所謂的準公幼名單之外的話，其實他們等於每個孩子每個月要多付大概3,000到9,000，這對很多的家庭來講是很沉重的負擔。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員補充報告，因為剛才有講到還沒有定案下來，也就沒有所謂哪個園或桃園市有幾園，這個是時間的部分。第二個，在我們研議的過程當中，如果真的不適合的園所勉強加入，我想很多家長也會有疑慮啦！如果有退場，比如它原來已有加入但沒有進行續約的，對於家長權益的保障，這個是我們主要的配套措施。"],["郭委員昱晴：我給您一個建議，好不好？因為有很多的私幼其實他們也許在第二期的時候是1比15，等於多收了3個孩子，如果他們的園方是有足夠的空間，這個部分是不是可以增班，甚至可以增加所謂的教師的一個能力？如果這個部分我們也納入考慮的話，其實會不會真的就是兩全其美啊！應該這麼說。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分因為我們也有蒐集到如同他們跟委員反映的……"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["潘部長文忠：在國教署召開諮詢的相關會議確實有這樣的意見，這些都是在我們最後要定案前會把它做綜整的考量。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以是……"],["潘部長文忠：但是要確保原來就讀準公幼家長的權益，比如得到政府推動的這些協助一定會保障。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然，也謝謝部長的回應。接下來我們就進入今天我們在討論的所謂校園安全部分，前一陣子大家都可以看到所謂師生上面的一個衝突，其實也引發了整個我們對於所謂國高中生，他們因為剛好面臨所謂的青春期，他們在面對校園安全上面，我相信其實不是只有那樣子的孩子跟那樣子的老師，他們在對應這樣子的校園安全時，他們其實是會有一些疑慮跟擔心的。我們可以看到，教育部在111年各級學校學校安全的報告分析，我們都知道，關於老師跟青少年學生們，他們在溝通上，也就是說，他們其實是需要花時間去關心這些孩子的，這樣我才能夠知道每個孩子的狀況。我們現在可以看到，以平均班級的人數來說，在國小的話，一班大概是23人，我們是以公立的學校來說。在國中的部分則是25，將近26人，高中其實有30人。也就是說，校園安全發生比例最高的，也就是出事最多的，應該是高中，這個部分我們在人力的部分要怎麼樣來配合？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，當然這是一個平均數的概念啦，因為臺灣少子化後，其實有相當多的學校學生人數是低於這個平均數。在過往這段時間，高中的部分其實是我們最優先的，讓輔導教師跟專輔人員的部分最快達成，依照現行學生輔導法的規定來補足這方面的人力，尤其是專業方面人力的增置。國中會在114學年度達到，國小我也把它提前，從120學年度提前到116學年度。因為我想這一些真的是誠如剛才委員所提到，越來越多孩子可能在這方面真的需要有更多專業的人力。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為其實有很多的事件，它會是同時發生，它不是可能只有這一班在發生。校安人員，或者我們學校的專輔人員，他們到達現場去處理應變的能力到底夠不夠，這也是我們真的必須要討論進去的。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外，我剛剛有講到，老師跟學生之間長期的溝通跟瞭解，其實才是他們解決問題最重要的一個關鍵。但是現在因為有很多師資其實是沒有辦法到位的，包含現在有很多所謂的助理教師人員，還有代理老師，他們對於學校班上，當他們入班去做這樣子教學互動的時候，他們對於班上的同學，每一位學生的特質，其實並沒有辦法第一線的掌握，這是不是跟校方有沒有告知也有關係？"],["潘部長文忠：對，我跟委員報告，因為如果我們對特教學生或比較特別的一些需要高關懷的學生，在原來的學生輔導法裡面，其實一個非常重要的，他就是一個學生輔導委員會，而校長就是那個召集人，這部分應該要很清楚地對這方面有所掌握。對於說比如代課老師，比如北市出現的這個問題，學校檢討下來，北市教育局這邊提到的就是校方可能在這個老師要去代課的時候，對於學生、這班上特殊狀況的孩子，並沒有適當的做銜接。像這個，我想也是教育部未來要跟縣市，還有學校這邊，在這方面可能要再更多的連結。因為那一次的衝突他們檢討下來，因為我也有請國教署就這方面去深入瞭解，確實學校跟教育局所反映出來的，這個確實是當時產生衝突一個還滿重要的關鍵。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛有很多的委員都有提到所謂的校園霸凌事件，其實霸凌不只有單純在學生跟學生之間，霸凌也有可能會發生在老師或者是校長對於學校孩子霸凌的事件，這個部分我不知道部長您有沒有掌握？因為我們知道在去年4月份的時候，我們有特別提到所謂不適任校長的問題，根據國教法，其實有通過不適任的校長在調查期間他是不能夠返回學校，他也不能夠申請退休，但是目前真的有開始制定這樣子的機制，有正式的法制化了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個部分在修國教法，就是這個議題在委員會審議的時候，也確定有關校長的這個部分，如果有涉及到一些剛才談到霸凌或不適任的行為……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為其實看到這個條文我們會發現……"],["潘部長文忠：有針對這個部分在母法上面定下來，目前國教署授權的子法正在做最後的整理。"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼時候可以出現？因為我們看到關於所謂校長跟教職員對學生的霸凌，是高達13.23%喔，這個比例其實已經來到了校園安全第四名的危險。"],["潘部長文忠：對，如果是校長涉及包含他在受調查期間，還有剛才委員所提的部分，都是在這個子法去做規範，這個在5月中就會公布實施。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有提前的話，可以……"],["潘部長文忠：有、有，上次國教法修法時這個也是各界所關心的點，因為過去確實在校園也發生過這樣的個案。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那我們期待有更新一步的改進。"],["潘部長文忠：目前母法已經有規定，子法在5月也會完成公布。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席"],["主席：我們現在先休息5分鐘。","休息（10時55分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席：好，我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請登記第8號的羅廷瑋羅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.30471875,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":5.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.42659375,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.649718750000002,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.30784375,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.190968750000003,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.97284375,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.68096875,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.18721875,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.43284375,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.18159375,"end":127.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.25159375000001,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.37721875,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.22971875000002,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.19159375,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.34096875,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.79096875000002,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.12409375000001,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.19159375,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.20846875,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.27596875,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.21971875,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.74659375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.23284375,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.75159375,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.15659375,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.31659375,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.12659375,"end":225.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.86034375000003,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.68846875000003,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.05534375000002,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.40221875000003,"end":291.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.47784375000003,"end":273.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.87284375,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.67346875000004,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.17534375,"end":304.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.59721875,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.84409375,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.59721875,"end":369.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.03221875,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.35346875000005,"end":436.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.09596875000005,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.09784375000004,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.00909375000003,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.62409375000004,"end":476.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.95221875000004,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.18409375000005,"end":478.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.26846875,"end":478.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.38659375000003,"end":537.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9384687500001,"end":550.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.42596875,"end":578.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.1853437500001,"end":601.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.16659375,"end":593.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.7522187500001,"end":596.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.32096875,"end":613.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.5234687500001,"end":601.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.15096875,"end":612.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.01534375,"end":632.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.4397187500001,"end":625.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.6453437499999,"end":635.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.65346875,"end":640.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.6615937500001,"end":636.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.5090937500001,"end":641.6015937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.083,"end":28.535,"text":"主席好有請部長部長辛苦了委員好在進入今天的這個校園安全的這個主題之前其實有一件事情會稍微比較緊急所以我在這邊可能就要先幫很多的小朋友還有他們的家長甚至還有很多的幼兒園的員所來幫他們問一下就是我們知道在今年的8月其實我們的準公幼"},{"start":29.475,"end":53.31,"text":"他們的這個應該是說即將在8月就要上路了啦第三期對第三期的部分那當然其實在這個教育部、國教署其實之前也提到了這第三期的一個草案但是有很多的所謂的退場機制包含師生筆可能如果不符合規定或者是說這個學校在三年之內曾經有什麼樣的一個事故的話可能他們就必須要被"},{"start":54.21,"end":54.831,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":81.209,"end":99.193,"text":"因為現在第三期的訂約的條件目前還沒有訂案下來因為各界包含家長、教保人員的待遇還有家長的期待以及教保服務品質等等還有包含剛才委員提到那個深思比一比十二怎麼進行的期程所以這個還沒有訂案"},{"start":101.594,"end":105.355,"text":"所以也沒有所謂現在哪個學校是退場或等等的目前整個已經都收集了相關的資料那會在3月底就會正式的把這個方面做定案跟對外來公佈那縣市才可以依據這個來做縣市內的相關有益參與總共用的這些的後續的訂約的事項"},{"start":127.423,"end":143.521,"text":"其實我相信應該很多的本來的私立幼兒園其實他們也很願意能夠參加所謂的準公幼但是因為現在我們看到的我目前所收到的一些陳情包含是桃園市他們開了第一槍等於他們開了第一槍之後"},{"start":144.002,"end":144.122,"text":"來得及"},{"start":160.528,"end":186.124,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在規劃的過程確實為了確保這個教保服務的品質甚至過去也有部分的幼兒園有出現這種管理不當甚至教保人員去虐待管教孩子的事情然後這個也是社會要求但是我聽到的有很多其實願意加入準公幼他們其實本來在私立的幼兒園他們也經營了大概二十三十年都是非常優質的但是這個政策一出來的時候其實會"},{"start":187.465,"end":210.14,"text":"我跟你們報告是說基本上政府一定會非常歡迎私幼能夠再符合我們規範的條件來成為我們一起加入的夥伴因為最直接影響到的其實就是家長對於學費因為我們大概知道如果是私幼的話其實他們平均的每個月的一個月費學費大概是從6000到12000但是如果是到了所謂的他們被"},{"start":211.281,"end":221.91,"text":"退出所謂的准公幼的一個名單之外的話其實他們等於每個孩子每個月要多付大概3000到9000這對很多的家庭來講是很成功的負擔因為剛才講到時間根本還沒有定案下來也就沒有所謂哪個園或什麼桃園市有幾園這個是一個時間第二個就是在我們研議的過程當中因為如果真的不適合的園所勉強加入我想對很多家長也會有疑慮"},{"start":238.903,"end":255.047,"text":"對於如果有退場比如他原來已有加入沒有進行續約的對於家長權益的保障這個是我們主要的配套措施我給您一個建議好不好因為其實有很多的私幼其實他們也許在第二期的時候他們說是1比15他等於多收了三個孩子"},{"start":255.447,"end":255.988,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":274.564,"end":284.107,"text":"在國教署召開諮詢的相關的會議確實有這樣的意見這些都是在我們最後要定案前會做重整的考量但是確保就是說原來就讀又有家長的權益比如得到政府的這些協助的這種一定會保障"},{"start":292.69,"end":317.978,"text":"謝謝部長的回應接下來我們就進入今天我們在討論的所謂的這個校園安全的一個部分了那前陣子其實大家都可以看到所謂的這個師生上面的一個衝突其實也引發了整個我們對於所謂的國高中生他們因為剛好面臨所謂的青春期他們在面對所謂的校園安全上面我相信其實不是只有那樣子的孩子跟那樣子的一個老師其實他們在"},{"start":319.699,"end":343.321,"text":"對應所謂的這樣子的一個校園安全他們其實是會有一些疑慮跟擔心的那我們可以看到其實教育部在111年各級學校的安全的報告的分析我們都知道其實關於老師跟青少年的學生們他們在溝通上也就是說他們其實是需要花時間去關心這些孩子的我才能夠知道每個孩子的一個狀況"},{"start":344.362,"end":368.677,"text":"我們現在可以看到以平均班級的人數來說在國小的話一般大概是23人所以我們以公立的學校來說那在國中的部分是25將近26人高中其實有30人那也就是說在校園安全其實發生比例最高的就是出事最多的應該是所謂的高中這個部分我們在人力的部分要怎麼樣來配合"},{"start":370.359,"end":384.334,"text":"我跟委員報告當然這是一個平均數的概念因為台灣少子化後其實有相當多的學校學生人數是低於這個平均數那在過往這段時間我們其實"},{"start":384.975,"end":390.418,"text":"高中的部分其實是最優先的將輔導教師跟專輔人員的部分最快達成依照現行學生輔導法的方面來做這方面人力的尤其是專業的這方面的人力的政治那國中"},{"start":404.825,"end":406.566,"text":"提前到116學年度因為我想這一些是剛才委員所提到真的越來越多孩子可能在這方面需要有更多專業的人"},{"start":420.24,"end":420.36,"text":"主席"},{"start":437.083,"end":437.563,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":454.07,"end":454.39,"text":"李慧琼教授"},{"start":470.726,"end":474.65,"text":"對,我跟委員報告因為如果對我們說特教學生或比較特別的一些需要高關懷的學生在原來的學生輔導法裡面其實一個非常重要的"},{"start":488.823,"end":505.51,"text":"他就是一個學生輔導委員會校長就是那個召集人這就是應該要很清楚的對這方面有所掌握那對於說比如當然代課老師比如北市出現的這個問題學校檢討下來北市教育局這邊提到的就是校方可能在這個讓要去代課這個老師對於學生這班上的特殊狀況的孩子並沒有適當的做銜接"},{"start":515.754,"end":533.311,"text":"像這個我想也是教育部未來要跟縣市還有學校這邊在這方面可能要再更多的連結因為這一次那次的衝突他們檢討下來因為有請國教署這方面深入的了解確實學校跟教育局所反映出來的這個確實是一個當時產生衝突一個還蠻重要的關鍵"},{"start":538.015,"end":561.443,"text":"其實剛剛有很多的委員都有提到所謂的校園暴力的事件其實暴力不只有單純在學生跟學生之間其實暴力也有可能會發生在老師或者是校長對於學校的孩子暴力的一個事件這個部分我不知道部長您有沒有掌握因為其實我們知道在去年4月份的時候其實我們有特別提到所謂的不適任的校長的問題那根據所謂的這個國教法它其實有通過"},{"start":564.884,"end":567.406,"text":"跟委員報告在修國教法的時候就是有這個議題特別在委員會審議的時候也確定有關校長的這個部分如果有涉及到一些剛才談到霸凌然後不適任的行為他有"},{"start":593.462,"end":593.562,"text":"主席"},{"start":612.407,"end":612.607,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a15b3d7ddf70e7ebb3919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a639c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:41:11 - 10:52:54","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":703,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:52:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:41:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時41分）好，謝謝主席，今天列席的首長還有立委同仁、媒體先進，大家早安。請主席先邀請部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩蔡部長上臺。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長好，我想請教一下，針對剛剛我們許多立委同仁也有在關心的偵查不公開這個部分，偵查不公開的原因一來是要保護案件的相關人，讓他們的身分不被暴露出來，也避免輿論未審先判；二來是要確保警察還有檢察官的偵查優勢，避免打草驚蛇，也避免嫌疑人有逃匿或串證、滅證的情形。其目的則是要確保我們有一個公平的審判並落實無罪推定的部分。但是在偵查不公開作業辦法第八條裡面也有列出例外得以公開的情形，我想請教部長，有關前一陣子立法院有許多委員收到炸彈的恐嚇信，是否也符合偵查不公開作業辦法第八條所說的有適度公開說明之必要？如果有的話，那目前我們偵辦的進度為何？可不可以請部長大概說明一下？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，就是偵查不公開在刑事訴訟法有很明文的規定，但是要怎麼執行，我們也透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布了一個作業辦法，在作業辦法裡面就明白的規定哪些是可以適度的公開、哪些是不能公開，所以我們大家都要遵守這樣的辦法跟規定。事實上，委員提到如果收到有炸彈這樣的恐嚇信件，這是社會矚目而且大家很關心，會危及到委員的安全，當然可以適度的做說明、公開。"],["陳委員俊宇：那現在進度大概到哪裡？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這個案子是刑事警察局他們受理在偵辦，對整個進度他們會比較清楚。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那我們是不是請局長？"],["周局長幼偉：委員好，這個案子是在恐嚇我們的立法委員，在之前有恐嚇很多交通重大設施的部分，我們針對這個部分之前就有查過，可能是一個陸生在來臺灣讀書之後回到大陸去，他因為之前有受了一些法律的約詢，然後他在這邊有被認為是有一些犯罪的問題，他後來沒有讀研究所就回去了。在他回去以後，這樣的案子就不斷發生，用語跟恐嚇的手法都是如出一轍，所以為了要安定所有的民心，讓大家能夠穩定下來，雖然這個人是在境外來恐嚇，但是我們不管怎麼樣，如果發生這些問題，我們的偵五隊是一個防爆小隊、一個小組，他們會來現場處理這些問題。我們發現這個IP是在境外，那境內有沒有人在聯絡，我們都會做一個偵查，但是發現他是一個人單獨在犯案，所以我們為了讓大家能夠安心就會把這個部分講出來，這個人是一個大陸人，他在大陸的西安市。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，局長，這是在境外，對境內部分他應該是沒有其他的……"],["周局長幼偉：報告委員，他沒有共犯在境內。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有共犯在境內？"],["周局長幼偉：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我也請局長針對這個部分要去掌握相關的期程。"],["周局長幼偉：是，我們應該要做。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於我們立委投遞恐嚇信的這些案件應該要有一個比較好的處理。"],["周局長幼偉：沒有問題，我們有一個專責大隊。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，局長，那就先這樣。我想請教一下司法院的黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，副秘書長，我想請教一下，依照我們刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條的第三項，須負義務的只限檢警、辯護人還有其他於偵查程序依法執行職務的人員，但是在現實當中，倘若社會發生重大案件的時候，則是有檢警、媒體還有社會大眾的三邊關係，在三者當中卻只有檢警受制於偵查不公開的原則，副秘書長，您對這個三角關係能理解嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果有其他政府機關的人在偵查程序中知道的話，他應該還是要去維持這個偵查秘密。"],["陳委員俊宇：可是這個其中的第四權就是媒體，媒體常常會主張民眾有知的權利，所以我們看到許多媒體會使用這種聳動的標題還有獨家內幕的方式來呈現這個新聞，就是為了要帶動民眾對這個議題的一個風向跟輿論，使得我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中有社會的壓力存在，也可能迫於這種壓力然後透露一點相關的內情，來說明這個偵辦的進度。我想請教副秘書長，雖然媒體不在偵查不公開的約束範圍之內，可是根據偵查不公開作業辦法第八條第一項第七款的規定，媒體查證、報導與事實不符，屬於這一款所規定有澄清的必要，在實務工作上應該如何去權衡？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，依照這個作業辦法第八條第一項第七款的規定，如果媒體已經有誤導或這些情形的話，那麼檢警相關單位可以在認為有澄清的必要範圍內去做做一些澄清的說明，當然基本上來講都有一定的限制，因為媒體不是在那個規定可以懲處或禁止的範圍。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以不會涉及到這個偵查不公開的部分？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為它還是在偵查不公開的範圍，但是假設有必要去做澄清的時候，偵查機關才會去做必要的說明，這是屬於偵查不公開的例外。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我再請教一下，像有網友主張自己有查證過，那是否就難以成立誹謗罪而不需負任何的責任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，關於這些誹謗的具體個案，在實務上最高法院都有一定的界限，他必須有做合理的查證，但具體的情形到底是什麼情形，要做合理的查證，而且要確實的查證並有相當的根據，不是他說他有查證就可以當然不構成，這個要看具體的個案，實務上也有相當多這種案例。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我再請教一下副秘書長，國民法官法上路已經滿一週年了，我們看到國民法官法施行細則第八十一條也有明確的規定，司法院、法務部應共同落實關於偵查不公開的規範，確保國民參與審判的這個程序，希望能夠確保公正、中立而且客觀，並且可以維護參與審判國民的權利。我想請教一下副秘書長，這一年來國民法官的相關案件是否皆有落實偵查不公開的原則？司法院這邊有無對此進行檢討？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，國民法官的案件大概都是偵查終結已經起訴了，如果檢察官還在偵查中的話，當然是偵查不公開，我相信檢警機關應該都會遵守。不過也有可能國民法官已經起訴了，但是還有其他案件還在偵查中，那當然就是請國民法官要注意不能去妨害到其他案件的偵查不公開。我們對這個部分都有SOP，包含國民法官在開庭的時候，審判長跟相關作業的部分都有提醒國民法官，目前都有嚴格在遵守。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，都有掌握當中啦？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想請教一下部長，前面提到有關媒體及大眾在偵查過程所扮演的角色，在案件的偵辦過程中，因為資訊的洩漏使得社會輿論未審先判，而被公審的人是相當無辜，就像剛剛鍾佳濱委員講到的媽媽嘴案，這就是一個典型的案例，當時社會上的輿論捕風捉影、未經查證，使得這個無辜的咖啡店老闆被貼上殺人犯的標籤，即便事後司法已經還他清白，可是當事人因為當時被輿論未審先判而受到嚴重的傷害，像這種類似的公審案件也不只一次，那我想請問部長，類似這種因偵查被公開而受到傷害的無辜嫌疑人是否能夠依法提出求償？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果從民事損害賠償的角度，當然他可以來提出，最後結果如何，也是看案件最後的判決，所以他要提出一些民事的求償，我想在法律上是許可的。"],["陳委員俊宇：是許可的啦！我們現行的刑事補償法僅有對冤獄賠償而已，第六條規定依照被羈押的天數支付相當的金額，但是對於遭受社會輿論公審而造成被害人精神損害，甚至影響到他後續人生規劃的部分，我們是不是應該也要有一個比較好的賠償機制的規劃，這樣才能夠讓這些無辜被波及的人有一個比較好的賠償？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，刑事補償法對於被羈押者如果是冤獄的話，已經有一個相當的補償，如果覺得不夠，當然也可以再檢討，或是從民事上再來要求。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我就請法務部這邊是不是能夠針對這個部分去做比較好的研擬，讓無辜的受害者也有一個比較好的求償管道？好，以上。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們接下來請傅崐萁總召發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.04034375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.18284375,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.21221875,"end":29.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.79846875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.60784375,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.704718750000005,"end":36.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.96596875,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.34096875,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.74971875,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.01409375,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.98346875,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.11596875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.37221875,"end":167.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.24096875,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.95721875,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.96971875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.03909375,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.71409375000002,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.13596875000002,"end":252.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.97909375,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.03784375,"end":268.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":254.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.87221875,"end":260.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.52909375,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.98471875,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.48659375,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.60471875,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.89159375,"end":278.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.93221875,"end":281.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.87721875,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.73784375,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.79034375000003,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.98346875000004,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.69096875,"end":316.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.59784375000004,"end":330.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.59534375000004,"end":331.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.54034375000003,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.38159375000004,"end":359.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.68784375,"end":362.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.80971875,"end":363.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.14284375,"end":371.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.78721875,"end":378.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.65534375000004,"end":392.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.96534375000005,"end":394.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.75409375000004,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.89284375000005,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.23034375000003,"end":409.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.31721875000005,"end":410.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.53221875,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.04596875000004,"end":421.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.05784375,"end":424.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.41596875000005,"end":427.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.01471875000004,"end":431.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.37284375,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.04221875,"end":441.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.21096875,"end":443.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.25284375,"end":447.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.16346875000005,"end":450.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.42034375000003,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.81596875,"end":468.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.43034375,"end":473.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.44221875000005,"end":480.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.20471875000004,"end":483.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.66846875000005,"end":523.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.93221875,"end":557.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.3953437499999,"end":565.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.2422187500001,"end":624.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.32221875,"end":566.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.5534687500001,"end":641.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.7197187500001,"end":670.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.2509687500001,"end":674.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.86221875,"end":674.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.8959687500001,"end":689.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.03284375,"end":690.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9778437500001,"end":697.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.18784375,"end":701.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.69784375,"end":700.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":700.86659375,"end":701.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.54159375,"end":701.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":702.80721875,"end":703.39784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.041,"end":26.284,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們今天各位列席的我們首長還有我們"},{"start":28.274,"end":43.771,"text":"立委同仁媒體先進大家早安請主席我們先邀請我們部長麻煩蔡部長請上台部長好我想請教一下針對剛剛我們"},{"start":47.253,"end":64.34,"text":"許多這個立委同仁也有在關心的我們偵查不公開的部分那偵查不公開的原因一來我們是要保護這個案件的相關人讓他們的身份不被暴露出來那也避免輿論未審先判"},{"start":65.02,"end":80.238,"text":"那二來是要確保警察還有我們的這個檢察官的偵查優勢避免打草驚蛇也避免嫌疑人有逃逆或串證滅證的這個情形那目的則是要確保我們有一個公平審判"},{"start":81.072,"end":101.67,"text":"然後落實無罪推定的部分但是在偵查不公開作業要點第8條裡面也有列出這個例外得以公開的情形我想請教我們部長有關前一陣子立法院我們有許多這個委員收到這個炸彈的恐嚇信是否也符合"},{"start":102.711,"end":113.46,"text":"這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條所說的有適度公開說明之必要如果有的話那目前我們偵辦的進度為何可不可以請部長大概說明一下"},{"start":115.314,"end":136.084,"text":"跟委員說明就是偵查不公開行事綜合有很明文的規定但是要怎麼執行我們也透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布了一個作業的辦法那這個辦法裡面就明白的規定說哪些是可以適度的公開那哪些是不能公開"},{"start":137.245,"end":155.488,"text":"所以我們大家都要遵守這樣的一個辦法跟規定那事實上委員提到這個如果這個恐嚇炸彈的這樣的信件是社會矚目而且大家關心危及到委員的安全當然可以適度的做說明公開"},{"start":158.151,"end":169.537,"text":"那我們有沒有大概現在進度到哪裡因為這個案子是刑事警察局他們受理在偵辦那整個進度他們會比較清楚好 那我們是請局長"},{"start":175.04,"end":192.055,"text":"委員好那因為這樣子目前在恐嚇我們立法委員部分因為之前恐嚇很多這種這個交通重大措施的部分那因為我們針對這個部分之前就有查過可能是一個陸生他來台灣這個讀書之後他回到大陸去了"},{"start":192.535,"end":212.413,"text":"那他因為之前有受了一些法律的這個約訓然後他認為說他是在這邊有被這個認為說是有一些犯罪的問題那他後來就沒有讀研究所就回去了那回去以後呢因為這個案子就不斷出這發生但用語跟他的就是恐嚇的手法都是如出一側"},{"start":213.715,"end":227.274,"text":"所以這一部分為了要安定所有的民心讓大家能夠穩定下來說這個人是在境外來恐嚇所以我們不管怎樣發生這些問題我們的真武隊是一個防暴小隊一個小組他會來現場處理這些問題"},{"start":229.597,"end":230.198,"text":"發言委員：陳俊宇"},{"start":246.255,"end":259.674,"text":"局長這就境外對境內部分我們應該他他的這個部分應該是沒有其他的沒有共犯在境內沒有共犯在境內是是是好我也請我們局長針對這部分要去掌握相關的這個騎乘對於我們立委"},{"start":263.439,"end":277.452,"text":"所投遞的這個恐惡的這些案件應該有一個比較好的處理沒有問題我們有一個專責大隊好那局長先這樣我想請教一下我們那個司法院的我們黃副秘書長"},{"start":281.09,"end":303.144,"text":"委員好好 副秘長我想請教一下依照我們刑事訴訟法245條的第三項需負義務的只限這個檢警、辯護人還有其他偵查程序依法執行職務的這些人等那但是在這個現實當中倘若社會發生重大的這個案件的時候"},{"start":304.236,"end":330.701,"text":"則是有檢警媒體還有社會大眾的三邊關係三者當中卻只有檢警受制於偵查不公開的原則這副部長您大概這三角關係您能理解嗎因為如果說其他的這些因為在偵查如果在偵查程序也如果說其他的人都知政府機關的人知道的話他應該還是要還是要去維持這個偵查秘密嘛好"},{"start":331.681,"end":346.672,"text":"可是這個其中的這個第四權就是媒體權媒體他常常會主張民眾有知的權利所以我們看到許多媒體會使用這種聳動的標題還有獨家的內幕的方式來呈現這個新聞"},{"start":348.573,"end":361.139,"text":"為了就是要帶動這個民眾對於這個議題的一個風向跟輿論那使得我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中有社會的壓力存在也可能迫於這種壓力然後透露一點這個相關的內情來"},{"start":364.495,"end":376.567,"text":"作為這個偵辦的這個進度的說明那我想請教這個副秘書長就是雖然媒體在偵查不公開的約束範圍之內那不在媒體不在這個範圍之內"},{"start":378.735,"end":393.099,"text":"可是根據這個偵查不公開作業要點第8條第1項的第7款他有提及到說媒體查證的報導與事實不符屬於特定的這個規定有澄清必要在實務上實務的這個工作上應該如何去權衡"},{"start":398.372,"end":424.212,"text":"根委員報告依照這一個這個第一那個不公開作業辦法第8條的這一個第7款的這一個如果說媒體曾經已經有誤導或這些情形的話那麼檢警相關單位可能在澄清的必要範圍內可以去做一些澄清的這些說明那當然當然基本上來講都有一定的這些限制因為媒體不是在這一個"},{"start":425.493,"end":427.395,"text":"那如果像有網友他如果主張說自己有查證過"},{"start":451.499,"end":479.956,"text":"那是否就是難以去成立這個毀謗罪而不需負任何的責任我想跟委員報告這個具體的毀謗的具體個案那我們的實務上面實務上面都有一定最高法院都有一定的這個界限他必須有合理的查證但具體的情形到底什麼情形合理的查證而且確實有確實這個查證而且相當的根據不是說他講說他有查證就可以當然不構成這個要看具體的個案"},{"start":481.5,"end":506.954,"text":"實務上面也相當多的這些案例好那我再請教一下我們副秘書長國民法官法這個上路已經滿一週年了那我們看到說國民法官法的實行細則第81條也有明確的規定司法院法務部應共同落實關於偵查不公開的這個規範確保國民參與審判的這個程序希望能夠有一個公正、中立而且客觀"},{"start":508.115,"end":520.668,"text":"並且可以維護參與審判國民的權利我想請教一下副秘書長這一年來國民法官相關的案件是否都皆有落實偵查不公開的原則司法院我們這邊有無對此進行檢討"},{"start":523.985,"end":533.137,"text":"跟委員報告那國民法官的案件大概都是偵查終結已經起訴了嘛已經起訴如果說還在檢查跟偵查中的話當然偵查偵查不公開我相信檢方檢察機關監警機關應該都會遵守那"},{"start":538.644,"end":564.893,"text":"那那個但是有可能國民法官已經起訴了但是還有其他的人其他案件還在偵查中那這個當然就是請國民法官要去注意說不能去妨礙到其他案件的偵查偵查不公開是那我們這一部分都有在我們的SOP包含說我們國民法官在開庭的時候審判長跟相關我們的作為過分都有提醒我們的國民法官目前都有在嚴格在遵守"},{"start":565.213,"end":569.935,"text":"前面提到有關媒體及大眾在偵查過程所扮演的角色在案件的偵辦過程中我們因為資訊的洩漏使得社會的這些輿論先審未判而"},{"start":584.6,"end":613.836,"text":"被公審的人是相當無辜那就像剛剛那個我們宗嘉濱委員也有講到就媽媽嘴案的這就是一個典型的案例當時社會上的輿論捕風捉影未經查證使得無辜的這個咖啡店的老闆被貼上殺人犯的標籤即便事後司法已經還他這個清白可是當事人因為當時被未審先判的這個輿論還有受到嚴重傷害類似的這種公審案件"},{"start":614.236,"end":624.662,"text":"也不只一次那我想請問部長就針對像類似的這種偵查被公開而受到傷害的無辜嫌疑人是否能夠依法提出求查"},{"start":625.972,"end":646.552,"text":"如果從民事損害賠償的角度當然他可以來提出啦那最後結果如何也是看案件最後的判決所以他要提出一些民事的球場我想在法律上是許可的是許可的啦齁那我們現行的這個刑事補償法僅有對這個冤獄賠償而已啦齁那第6條規定"},{"start":651.161,"end":673.973,"text":"依照被羈押的這個天數支付相當的這個金額但是對於這個遭受社會輿論公審而造成這個被害人精神損害甚至影響到他後續人生的這個規劃我們是不是應該也要有一個比較好的一個賠償的機制的規劃才能夠讓我們這些無辜被這個波及的人有一個比較好的賠償"},{"start":674.949,"end":701.198,"text":"是 那刑事補償法已經有對於如果被羈押那是冤獄的話已經有一個相當的補償如果覺得不夠當然也可以再檢討或是從民事上再來要求好 那我是請我們法務部這邊是不是針對這部分去做比較好的研議讓我們無辜受害者也有一個比較好的一個球場的管道好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a3424099813443d521b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a689e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:35:55 - 10:48:06","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":731,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:48:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:35:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時36分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好。主席，請黃主委，等一下再請央行以及證券交易所陳董事長。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。交易所董事長去招商，不好意思。簡總經理……"],["羅委員明才：請另外一位陳董好了，陳永誠。"],["主席：櫃買中心陳董事長。"],["羅委員明才：對，好，謝謝。主委，我想請教一下，ETF究竟是什麼形式、從什麼時候開始在臺灣募集、販售？一般民眾、小白可不可以下去買？最少的單位大概要多少錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：ETF的介紹在報告第1頁都有說，臺灣是92年開始有第一檔ETF。到現在發展起來，大概有48檔，以股票為標的的ETF大概一兆四千、五千億左右。"],["羅委員明才：總共現在加起來的規模是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：加上債券應該差不多是四兆左右。"],["羅委員明才：有四兆多？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到網紅說，這是可以打敗定存的。請問主委有沒有買？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有買。"],["羅委員明才：現在定存的利率是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好像1.5%至1.6%吧？最高應該不到2%，我沒有特別注意。"],["羅委員明才：如果不到2%，ETF會不會倒？"],["黃主任委員天牧：要看是什麼ETF。如果各位記得2020年有一個槓桿反向基金，後來因為追蹤標的的問題下市。至於股票的部分，其實我也有報告風險，這都是風險之一，只是相對發生的機率大不大。"],["羅委員明才：可是一般民眾都不瞭解啊，特別是那麼亮麗的宣傳，唯一可以打敗定存的，哇！好像跟神一樣。因為這一次的情況是這樣，很多人都沒有買到台積電，主委，你有買到台積電嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我什麼都沒有。"],["羅委員明才：對啊，我周邊很多人都沒有，特別是小白，哇！好緊張啊、無所適從。所以很多人、定存族存在銀行的老本500萬、1,000萬全部趕快解約，甚至連房子沒有貸款的趕快去做信貸、趕快去質押貸款，拚啦！大家一窩蜂最後一次機會，台積電都錯過了、ETF不能再錯過啊！因為這些人的恐懼跟驚慌，主委，你不懂他們的心。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，台積電也有零股，其實也是可以買的，我們有零股交易。"],["羅委員明才：我周邊沒有人買台積電，只有一個人買，是投信的一個董事長，而且買了好幾千億，名字我就不說了。問題就是當資訊不正常對等，當所有小白在這樣一個貧富懸殊很大的場境、在這種環境之中，他沒辦法、沒得選擇啊！","他跟我講，很多的年輕人本來很想買虛擬貨幣，在美金一枚大概6,000塊的時候很多年輕人就問我說，哇！股票台積電我買不起、也不曉得怎麼買；然後很多人就說虛擬貨幣是年輕人的最後一個機會，有人沒辦法，就跳上車啊。可是央行從幾年前……央行今天也來了，央行也一起上來，副總裁，你們總裁一直說那個風險很大、叫人家不要買，很多人聽總裁的話都沒有買，結果今天證明……請問一下副總裁，現在比特幣一枚多少錢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：比特幣過去的價格……"],["羅委員明才：今天、大概、最近，最近一枚多少錢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：過去我知道是接近七萬多，然後……"],["羅委員明才：七萬多的美元？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["羅委員明才：是美元。所以你想想看，已經差了10倍，副總裁，年輕人不希望年輕被留白，更重要的是大家會怕，在這個時代他是不是野蠻生存遊戲中最後被淘汰的那個人？大家都在撐啊！","主委，我剛請教你，一般小白可不可以買ETF？它的最低的額度是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我很久沒有買這些東西了，我不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：請櫃買。"],["主席：請陳董事長。"],["羅委員明才：陳董事長，這個應該是你們在管的，是不是？"],["陳董事長永誠：我們主要是債券的ETF，股票的……"],["羅委員明才：好，債券的ETF，從你這邊開始，它最低的購買的額度是多少？每個人是不是都可以買？還有從這幾年、九十幾年到現在，買的人有沒有虧過錢？"],["陳董事長永誠：每個單位的價格不太一樣，有的40塊、有的30塊、有的15塊。"],["羅委員明才：所以最低的入門門檻是多少？不然這樣，請簡總經理好了。"],["主席：簡總請。"],["簡總經理立忠：我想10塊錢以上到……看他背後一籃子股票的組成，到一百多塊、兩百多塊都有。"],["羅委員明才：所以他只要出一百多塊就可以買這個股票？"],["簡總經理立忠：那個一百多塊要再乘以1,000啦，單位是1,000。"],["羅委員明才：因為一張是1,000股嘛。"],["簡總經理立忠：對！"],["羅委員明才：所以剛剛你這樣講，可能他幾萬就可以入門了。"],["簡總經理立忠：最近新發行10塊錢的話，那就是1萬塊一個單位。"],["羅委員明才：難怪啊！主委，這個問題就出現了，多好的機會！而且你告訴我，這十幾年來如果他買了不賣，有沒有虧錢的案例？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我不太清楚，但是我想股票有漲有跌，它的成分股有漲有跌，但他是不是一定都賺？我不曉得，要從實證研究……"],["羅委員明才：它現在變成是一種全民運動，特別是空手的、是小白的，他覺得一定要跟上這個風潮啊，這個大浪來他不跟上去，那他怎麼辦？也許就被淘汰掉了。主委，我想請教一下，你對這些小白有什麼話說？用力買還是不要買、還是通通不要碰？"],["黃主任委員天牧：ETF應該是一個庶民可以去投資的商品，但是必須自己要瞭解這個商品的特質，當然監理機關這邊就要責成投信公司必須要善盡告知投資人這些商品到底是什麼商品，在這些公開說明書中都要詳細的跟投資人解釋清楚；同時也不可以像您剛才所說的，在行銷手法上拿去跟定存比，甚至暗示投資人這個一定會超過定存的利率、甚至有一種一定會實現相當利潤的期待，這是不對的！因為它牽動到成分股的漲跌，怎麼可以去跟定存比，這個是不妥當的。"],["羅委員明才：所以你們準備怎麼做？"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一個，投信公司在通路銷售這個商品的時候一定要正確告知投資人商品的特質，投資人自己要去瞭解這個商品適不適合他的風險；同時在行銷手法上，尤其是跟網紅合作上，這也是我們現在要強化規範的地方，不可以誤導投資人。"],["羅委員明才：主委，請問一下，買的機會都是一樣嗎？會不會因為他是大咖、會不會因為他是市場的老手因此他買得到，小白都買不到啦？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這應該是券商這邊……初級市場部分都是從券商這邊的通路讓大家去做申購。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。請問簡總。"],["簡總經理立忠：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：買得到的人就是一些老面孔，有很多人買不到啊，那你會不會開一個特別的窗口給這些買不到的人優先來承購？"],["簡總經理立忠：跟委員報告，其實ETF是跟一般股票一樣，掛上來以後在我們這一個交易所、OTC的集中交易市場上面去做撮合，所以它是很方便交易，就類似股票一樣。委員提到：有的買到、有的沒有買到，這是開始在申購的時候、成立的時候……申購的時候有一定的限制或有一定的地方，那這個還沒有掛上去，掛上去以後隨時可以在交易所或OTC的市場上面買得到。"],["羅委員明才：對，那個是在市面上，當然你就是用撮合的嘛，對不對？現在問題就是你要掛、還沒掛上去的時候，為什麼張三、李四他可以買，這些小白通通買不到呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我再跟您報告一下，它也有一些……通路在決定是不是要賣給特定投資人，也要看KYC、也要認識客戶，這個客戶是不是屬於自身風險屬性跟這個商品是相同的，所以不是隨便誰要買都可以買，券商這邊也有KYC的程序要去做。"],["羅委員明才：主委，這個承銷制度是不是有問題啊？如果在這種既定的遊戲規範當中，小白永遠出不了頭啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：不會，有不同類型的ETF，他都可以自己去做選擇。"],["羅委員明才：就最近最火紅的這一檔。"],["黃主任委員天牧：您說的小白到底……也許他也有一些投資的經驗，我不太清楚。"],["羅委員明才：主委，可不可以這樣──這些買不到的人我們立法院這邊來登記，然後拜託主委優先讓他們買？"],["黃主任委員天牧：最近這一檔上禮拜就已經結束了吧。"],["主席：上禮拜五截止了啦。"],["羅委員明才：上禮拜五截止，為什麼有人買得到、有人買不到？"],["主席：他去找元大啦。"],["羅委員明才：對，這就是一個不公平性嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：實務上可能就像召委說的，可能要問發行……"],["羅委員明才：請主委要注意一下，在現有的遊戲規則當中，強者恆強，所有的新手、所有的弱勢、所有的小白永遠是人為刀俎、我為魚肉，希望主委可以打破這一個不公平的制度！這麼「好空」為什麼你不給這些人？為什麼都是這些老面孔？不信你把資料全部調出來，有多少的集中度、百分比多少？就是那些人，好的通通都拿去、壞的要承銷，這個買不到，不然你去買另外一個，買了就套、套了就慘！主委，這個制度是不公平的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您提醒我們的，我們會在制度上去做一些研究，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員的質詢。","我們剛剛會議已經有宣布休息10分鐘，請2位委員稍候，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.262218750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.434718750000002,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.274093750000002,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.94034375,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.69096875,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.32784375,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.11221875,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.14596875,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.16284375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.46221875,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.765968750000003,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.75721875,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.774093750000002,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.36471875,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.05221875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.33471875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.612843750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.11034375,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.768468750000004,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.64596875,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.282843750000005,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.172843750000006,"end":41.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.049718750000004,"end":42.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.01159375,"end":46.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.36534375,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.06971875,"end":50.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.094718750000006,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.84971875,"end":53.642843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.14471875,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.65471875,"end":65.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.99534375,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.96971875,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.17971875,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.67284375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.02284375,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.49784375,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.67909375,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.88534375,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.64409375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.31034375,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.02721875,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.29721875000001,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.60909375,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.47596875,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.24784375,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.18846875000001,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.45784375,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.28846875000002,"end":136.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.22471875000002,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.51034375,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.09221875,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.18909375,"end":150.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.28596875000002,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.90409375000002,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.70971875,"end":167.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.27034375000002,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.22784375,"end":172.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.54409375,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.45096875000002,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.89784375000002,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.10846875000001,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.76221875000002,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.38159375,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.41096875000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.40221875,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.73534375,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.62971875000002,"end":193.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.40159375000002,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.87784375,"end":198.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.93659375000001,"end":199.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.96596875,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.55221875,"end":206.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.85096875000002,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.79159375,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.53409375,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.72784375,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.56721875000002,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.51596875,"end":218.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.52846875,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.75596875000002,"end":222.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.23659375000003,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.64971875,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.50159375,"end":237.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.78284375,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.50346875000002,"end":245.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.15284375000002,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.78096875000003,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.34159375000002,"end":253.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.79284375,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.17221875,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.60221875,"end":260.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.20534375,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.34409375,"end":267.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.36471875,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.01846875,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.05221875,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.71409375,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.97534375000004,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.00909375000003,"end":275.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.45596875,"end":280.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.98284375000003,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.64096875,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.49284375,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.45409375,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.66909375,"end":291.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.76596875,"end":292.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.98096875000005,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.34346875,"end":297.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.97596875,"end":300.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.54096875000005,"end":301.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.55346875000004,"end":304.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.60784375000003,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.41784375000003,"end":306.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.86471875,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.88971875000004,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.53096875,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.96096875,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.28971875,"end":316.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.21346875,"end":319.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.08221875000004,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.22971875,"end":324.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.54159375,"end":325.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.64221875000004,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.84471875,"end":328.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.03034375000004,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.21596875,"end":328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.68846875,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.33784375000005,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.91971875,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.93659375000004,"end":337.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.76346875,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.44659375000003,"end":340.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.73721875,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.86346875000004,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.99409375000005,"end":346.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.79534375000003,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.10284375000003,"end":355.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.55346875000004,"end":355.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.62096875000003,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.17784375,"end":359.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.35034375000004,"end":361.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.84784375000004,"end":364.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.61534375,"end":365.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.10034375000004,"end":367.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.79221875,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.33096875,"end":377.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.96346875,"end":378.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.85784375000003,"end":378.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.92534375,"end":386.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.88284375,"end":381.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.08471875000004,"end":386.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.13096875,"end":386.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.14784375000005,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.97471875,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.02534375000005,"end":387.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.32909375,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.08846875,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.86846875000003,"end":391.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.91909375,"end":391.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.93596875000003,"end":392.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.18471875,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.37346875000003,"end":401.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.47846875000005,"end":403.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.49534375,"end":404.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.46971875,"end":406.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.49909375000004,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.81534375,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.31721875000005,"end":410.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.21971875,"end":421.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.11284375,"end":423.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.91409375,"end":426.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.49159375000005,"end":429.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.25909375000003,"end":432.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.84096875,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.20784375000005,"end":435.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.04284375000003,"end":437.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.20721875000004,"end":439.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.70909375,"end":442.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.26971875000004,"end":443.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.45096875,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.78409375,"end":446.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.23096875000005,"end":449.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.34034375000005,"end":460.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.31346875,"end":469.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.98284375000003,"end":472.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.49721875000006,"end":491.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.29159375,"end":494.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.44721875000005,"end":509.16659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.63909375000003,"end":510.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.09034375000005,"end":518.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":518.6840937500001,"end":522.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.15596875,"end":524.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.52284375,"end":525.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.05846875,"end":527.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.1047187500001,"end":529.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.56846875,"end":531.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.6397187499999,"end":538.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.2378437500001,"end":540.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.82409375,"end":542.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.87471875,"end":541.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.1147187500001,"end":544.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.60409375,"end":545.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.2790937500001,"end":546.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.8315937500001,"end":548.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.82284375,"end":550.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.93221875,"end":555.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.3997187500001,"end":562.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.39034375,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.02284375,"end":603.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.97034375,"end":607.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.4128437500001,"end":609.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.0747187500001,"end":624.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.65909375,"end":626.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.49846875,"end":630.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.69596875,"end":634.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.16784375,"end":641.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.96846875,"end":645.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.87096875,"end":647.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.8159687500001,"end":649.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.2922187500001,"end":654.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.88221875,"end":657.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.1728437500001,"end":662.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.16784375,"end":666.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":666.44159375,"end":671.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.6397187500002,"end":667.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.75721875,"end":675.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.65096875,"end":681.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.17784375,"end":686.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.30409375,"end":682.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":687.11346875,"end":690.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":691.3490937500001,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":692.8172187499999,"end":694.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.0065937500001,"end":699.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.92159375,"end":704.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.93346875,"end":706.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":707.1272187500001,"end":708.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":709.3715937500001,"end":711.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.81846875,"end":713.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.5734687500001,"end":714.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":715.24409375,"end":719.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.3784687500001,"end":720.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":721.4540937500001,"end":723.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.7153437500001,"end":728.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":728.96346875,"end":730.95471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.273,"end":25.546,"text":"主席各人處理的習慣大家好主席可不可以請黃主委然後等一下再請央行以及證券交易所還有請黃主委陳董事長招委長交易所董事長去招商去了請另外一位陳董陳永誠櫃買中心陳董事長主委我想請教一下"},{"start":35.319,"end":56.295,"text":"那ETF究竟它是什麼形式從什麼時候開始在臺灣來募集來販售那一般的民眾小白可不可以下去買最少的單位是大概要多少錢"},{"start":58.7,"end":60.101,"text":"總共現在加起來的規模是多少?"},{"start":77.711,"end":105.718,"text":"加上債券應該差不多4兆左右有4兆多那我們看到網紅在上面講說這是可以打敗定存的那請問主委你有沒有買我沒有買現在定存的利率是多少好像1.56%吧我想最高應該不到2%我沒有特別注意如果說不到2%的話然後ETF會不會倒會不會倒"},{"start":107.699,"end":136.416,"text":"要看什麼ETF如果各位記得那個2020年有一個反向槓桿反向後來也因為它的追蹤的標題的問題但是股票部分其實我這邊也有報告風險風險其實這都是風險之一啦只是相對它的發生機率大不大一般的民眾都不了解啊特別那麼亮麗的宣傳唯一可以打敗定存的"},{"start":137.321,"end":146.283,"text":"哇!好像跟神一樣因為這一次的情況是這樣很多人都沒有買到台積電主任你有買到台積電嗎?"},{"start":148.14,"end":176.3,"text":"我什麼都沒有所以我周邊很多人都沒有特別是小白好緊張無所適從所以很多人定存族存在銀行的老本五百萬、一千萬全部趕快解約甚至連房子沒有貸款趕快去做信貸趕快去執押貸款"},{"start":176.96,"end":205.997,"text":"拼啦大家一窩蜂最後一次機會啊臺積電都錯過了ETF不能再錯過啊因為這些人的恐懼跟驚慌主任你是不懂他們的心的法委員臺積電也有零股其實也是可以買的我們有零股加的我周邊沒有人買臺積電啊只有一個人買是投信的一個董事長而且買了好幾千億名字我就不說了"},{"start":207.206,"end":226.354,"text":"問題就是說當資訊不對等當所有小白在這樣的一個貧富懸殊很大的場境在這種環境之中沒辦法沒得選擇啊他跟我講很多的年輕人本來很想買虛擬貨幣"},{"start":228.547,"end":253.686,"text":"在美金一枚大概六千塊的時候很多年輕人就問我說我股票台積電我買不起也不曉得怎麼買然後很多人就說很多人說虛擬貨幣是年輕人的最後一個機會有人沒辦法就跳上車可是央行央行今天也來了從幾年前央行也一起上來副總裁"},{"start":254.827,"end":270.264,"text":"你們的總裁一直叫人家說那個是風險很大叫人家不要買就很多人都聽總裁的話都沒有買就今天證明請問一下副總裁現在比特幣一枚多少錢"},{"start":272.725,"end":296.765,"text":"比特幣過去的那個價格最近多少錢一枚過去我知道是7萬多接近7萬多的美元是美元所以你想想看已經差了10倍副總裁年輕人不希望年輕被留白更重要大家會怕"},{"start":298.041,"end":324.429,"text":"是不是在這個時代淘汰中他是不是野蠻生存遊戲他是最後的被淘汰的那個人大家都在撐啊所以 主委我剛請教你那ETF一般小白可不可以去買他的最低的額度是多少我 我很久沒有買這些東西了好 那請那個櫃買"},{"start":327.657,"end":328.978,"text":"每個單位的價格不太一樣有的40塊、有的30塊、有的15塊"},{"start":356.743,"end":373.516,"text":"最低的入門門檻是多少有些發行價格15或10塊不然這樣請李總經理好了李總請簡總我想10塊錢以上到看他背後的一攬子股票的組成到100多塊200多塊都有"},{"start":375.407,"end":403.938,"text":"所以他只要出一百多塊他就可以買這個股票那個一百多塊是等於是要再乘以一千一張是一千股嘛對對對所以剛剛你這樣講可能他幾萬他就可以入門啊最近發行的新發行的十塊錢的話那就是一萬塊一個單位難怪啊主委這個問題就出現了多好的機會"},{"start":405.489,"end":433.479,"text":"而且你告訴我這十幾年來如果他買了不賣有沒有虧錢的案例這個我不太清楚但是我想股票有漲有跌他的成分股有漲有跌但他是不是一定都賺我不曉得要從實證研究他現在變成是一種全民運動特別是空手的是小白的但他覺得一定要跟上這個風潮啊這個大浪來你不跟上去那他怎麼辦"},{"start":434.264,"end":446.727,"text":"也許就被淘汰掉了所以主委我想請教一下那你對這些小白有什麼話說用力買還是不要買還是通通不要碰"},{"start":448.451,"end":471.886,"text":"ETF是一個應該是庶民可以去投資的商品但是必須你自己要了解這個商品的特質那當然監理機關這邊就要責成投信公司他必須要善盡告知這些投資人你的商品到底是什麼商品在這些公開說明書中都要詳細的跟投資人解釋清楚同時也不可以像您剛所說的"},{"start":472.566,"end":473.187,"text":"所以你們準備怎麼做?"},{"start":495.489,"end":495.889,"text":"主委請問一下這個買的機會都是一樣嗎?"},{"start":523.348,"end":550.246,"text":"會不會是因為他是大咖會不會因為他是市場的這個老手他買得到小白都買不到啦這應該是券商這邊出行市場部分都是看券商這邊通路上大家去去做申購啦好謝謝那請問那個簡總簡總買得到的人就是一些老面孔有很多人買不到啊"},{"start":550.987,"end":571.986,"text":"那你會不會開一個特別的窗口給這些買不到的人優先來成購跟委員報告其實ETF它是跟一般股票一樣掛上來以後呢在我們這個交易所或OTC的這個集中交易市場上面去做撮合所以它是很方便交易就類似股票一樣"},{"start":572.586,"end":591.708,"text":"那委員有提到說有買到有沒有買到這是在開始在申購的時候他成立的時候申購的時候那他有一定的限制或有一定的地方那這個還沒有掛上去掛上去以後呢你隨時可以在這個交易所這邊或OTC的市場上面買得到"},{"start":592.488,"end":609.594,"text":"對那個是在市面上當然你就是就用撮合的嘛對不對現在問題就是你要掛還沒掛上去的時候那為什麼張三里市他可以買這些小牌東都買不到勒我再跟您報告一下就是"},{"start":611.121,"end":633.591,"text":"他也有一些他在通路在是不是決定要賣給特定投資人也要看KYC也要認識客戶這個客戶是不是屬於他的風險屬性跟這個商品是相同的所以不是說我隨便誰要買都要買券商這邊也要有KYC的程序要去做主委這個承銷制度是不是有問題呀"},{"start":636.223,"end":661.863,"text":"那如果在這種既定的遊戲規範當中那小白永遠出不了頭了啊不會啊他有不同類型的ETF啊他都可以自己去做選擇沒有就最近最火紅的這一黨那您說的小白到底也許他也有一些投資的經驗我不太清楚那主委可不可以這樣這邊買不到的人吼那我們立法院這邊來登記然後拜託主委優先讓他們買"},{"start":663.226,"end":675.384,"text":"最近這一檔上禮拜就已經結束了吧上禮拜五截止了啦上禮拜五截止為什麼有人買得到有人買不到他去找嚴大這個就是一個不公平性嘛"},{"start":677.907,"end":703.956,"text":"這個是實務上可能就像趙偉說的請主委要注意一下在現有的這個遊戲規則當中強者恆強所有的新手所有的弱勢所有的小白永遠是人為刀齒我為魚肉希望主委可以打破這個不公平的一個制度這麼好康你怎麼不給別人給這些人為什麼都是這些老面孔"},{"start":704.98,"end":728.958,"text":"不是你把資料全部調出來有多少的集中度百分比多少就是那些人好的通通都拿去壞的要成銷才不然你這個買不到你去買另外一個買了就套套了就慘所以這個制度是不公平的委員您提醒我們我們會去制度上去做一些研究謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a6132fe81283fc30387ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:31:20 - 10:44:47","影片長度":"00:13:27","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":807,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:44:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:31:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":386,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時31分）主席謝謝，麻煩請潘部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：潘部長，去年韓國影集「黑暗榮耀」用校園霸凌的題材成為全球的排行冠軍，現在很多人重視校園霸凌的問題，本席先就教幾個校園霸凌的問題。有民調顯示，近三成的兒少不認為自己在學校是安全的，你有沒有看到這樣的報導？"],["潘部長文忠：因為過去也有很多的相關調查、相關資料，只是這個我並沒有進一步比較客觀地去確認過。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，高中職以下的暴力跟偏差行為一年平均有二萬六千多件，平均每天發生71件的暴力事件。去年調查發現有三成的兒少不認為自己在學校安全，你不覺得這很諷刺嗎？通常來講，家庭、校園合理上來說應該是比較安全的地方，但是居然有三成的兒少，不管是國小、國中、高中生會認為在學校不安全。我們這幾年投入那麼多的努力，到底為什麼還會有這樣的狀況？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，校園安全還有霸凌的議題一定要持續的來努力，這個毋庸置疑。剛才委員談到數據的部分，我跟委員報告，112年相較於111年，高中以下大概多八千多件，其實是因為我們一直要求學校通報不要隱匿，因為通報才有機會知道到底發生了什麼事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我就直接請問部長，你覺得現在數據上升是因為通報變多，還是案件變多？"],["潘部長文忠：這個要進一步去做確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你沒有辦法確認，你為什麼、憑什麼在這邊講說是因為通報變多？這是你的邏輯啊！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，因為類型其實一直在擴大。當中被霸凌的，比如通報數是三千多件，確認數大概是二百多件。我是以霸凌……因為霸凌有它的定義，比如孩子跟同學發生衝突，他覺得被霸凌。但是如果進一步的去確認、是不是應該要再確認，我只是跟委員報告我們掌握到的數據，就是鼓勵通報一定是責無旁貸的事……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，而且也不應該有過去這種隱匿的陋習，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以委員那一次還考我……"],["洪委員孟楷：我再請教你……"],["潘部長文忠：那個什麼通報電話的事情，其實我們後來改成1853，委員知道嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我再請教你好不好？針對現在有新聞媒體報導，公立體制崩壞，孩子推向私中，有沒有注意到這樣的新聞？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我要這樣子講，如果以我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在很多人會覺得是不是因為霸凌事件頻傳，致今年明星私中傳出報考人數激增，私立中學比頂尖大學還要難考。這樣子的現象如果真的發生的時候，我們要怎麼樣重建我們的公立體系？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，當然這是一個比較普遍的……"],["洪委員孟楷：今年有沒有注意到這樣的數據？私中的報考人數變多？有沒有？"],["潘部長文忠：你說校園的一些安全事件會不會影響到部分家長，我相信只要看到新聞，都是難免的，這個我一定要承認……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那有沒有注意到？"],["潘部長文忠：但是我跟委員報告……沒有，我要講的是，委員知道嘛，今年升國一……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席過去都覺得你算是一個好溝通的人，但是奇怪，好像從這一個會期開始，你也有點焦躁？"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，你先聽好本席的問題，聽完問題、針對問題解決、回答問題可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我就是要回答委員嘛？"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有注意到今年私中……"],["潘部長文忠：有！今年升國一的人數總共是21萬，相較於去年是18萬，整整多3萬1,000……"],["洪委員孟楷：多3萬1,000是多多少比例？將近……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，你把它換算過去你就會知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：將近兩成喔！"],["潘部長文忠：你就會知道為什麼去讀私中的……像新北、你服務的新北要增加200班。如果以比例來看，本來就想要進去私中一定會……因為私中的名額不是一直變大，它就是固定的。所以我說這個人數是非常特殊的，龍年跟兔年之間，光國一就差了3萬1,000人，就是明年要升國一，所以從那個數據……我要跟委員報告的是這個訊息，我也請署長一定要特別去留意。但是對於私中過去因為私校法第五十七條還是第幾條有開放，讓私立學校可以用各種的方式……過去委員會也經常指教，說像中部那種小型聯考……說實在，臺灣走過9年義務教育後還再出現這個現象，我覺得教育機關是應該要來慎重的處理。孩子其實是為了擠這個窄門，結果……說真話放棄了……之前才有一個家長規定了可怕的課程表，這個也都會讓這個社會及大家省思，教育主管機關也會再注意這個事項。我要跟委員報告的是，我們有注意到這個議題……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們先不要把話岔遠，我覺得重點是現在霸凌事件頻傳，普遍家長如果不信任公立學校，造成大家往私校擠，會造成兩個現象：一個是越來越多人可能會去私立學校報考；另外一個部分，公立學校的老師、教職員也會有士氣低落的影響，等一下再來跟你就教這個部分，你剛剛也提到了，非常好，本席等一下會問。我想先請教，現在很多時候看到校園霸凌的影片在LINE群組轉傳，我們會知道這個霸凌是因為那個影片。本席之前也有提過，就是說會有霸凌事件、會有其他人拍影片，其實某種程度上他是在欺負那個被害者，他是想要取樂、他是想要嘲笑、他想要把被害者受辱的畫面給拍下來，這是一部分。另外一部分可能是當下他想要做個紀錄，譬如說像上上禮拜有學生跟老師發生衝突的時候，就是教室裡面的同學當場把他拍下來。我現在先請教霸凌影片出來之後的處理機制，有沒有跟我們相關單位聯繫做下架以及後續的心理輔導？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員提醒。我跟委員報告，近期有幾個校園這個事件，因為在那個平臺上面，我們就會要求下架，因為一定會掌握到，就是要跟iWIN做這方面的下架要求。至於委員剛才提到有些被download下來以後就在社群裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其是校園。"],["潘部長文忠：對，這個是比較難的，因為它已經被……但是在那個平臺裡面，我們第一時間一定會這樣做。我也跟委員報告，這個我們真的要再努力。之前也有一個影片不知道委員有沒有看到，就是學生把老師的手壓在……"],["洪委員孟楷：黑板。"],["潘部長文忠：然後用什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：板擦嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：結果查證以後，那個事情根本就不是這樣的事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，也是在新北的一個學校。"],["洪委員孟楷：是老師講不是？同學講不是？"],["潘部長文忠：他們說……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是你聽學校的講法？"],["潘部長文忠：他們說當時他們在做一個戲劇，學校正式求證了，而且也有正式說明、有對外說明。我要跟委員報告的是，網路的這些訊息確實我們要不斷地去做這方面……像是把學校拍戲劇的影片當成霸淩影片，這對社會來講也是很震撼。學生把老師綁在後頭，然後用什麼板擦去弄……那個片子我第一時間就請署長去確實地查清楚到底是發生了什麼事情。後來一查，瞭解是新北汐止某個區域的學校，他們在進行什麼戲劇，結果就這樣po上網路，這個我想對社會……尤其剛才委員談到，很多家長如果看到這個會覺得公立學校到底發生了什麼事？那是一所公立學校。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在要問的是，在霸凌影片的部分，我們有做什麼後續的輔導？"],["潘部長文忠：我們一定會先下架，像這一些因為還是會要求縣市跟學校對於這個個案在後續的處理上面，因為有雙方，這個部分確實不是說下架就沒事了，一定會去追蹤到，因為這個可能就會進到、多數的這些我們掌握到都會進行到霸凌，尤其是生對生的後續處置作業，一直到這個案子真正的做了一些處置。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛部長還有提到，就是葉元之委員有問到帶彈簧刀的部分，我先確認一下，你們剛剛講的確實是彈簧刀嗎？是嘛！彈簧刀嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：葉委員說的是彈簧刀。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是彈簧刀的話，我們沒有任何的法令可以去規範嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，少事法的規範就是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是什麼樣子？"],["潘部長文忠：就是帶著刀械，這個本來就是可以通報的。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！"],["潘部長文忠：那不是沒收的概念而已喔！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！那為什麼你剛剛回答的時候都沒有講這樣的一個方向？"],["潘部長文忠：我有啊！因為葉委員一直沒有在……我要跟他報告說在少事法的規範裡，已經不是讓老師單打獨鬥，也不是讓學校單打獨鬥，你本來就可以通報……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席要特別強調的是不只是少事法，社會秩序維護法也都有一樣的概念。"],["潘部長文忠：是，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：雖然我們沒有在槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例裡面規範到彈簧刀，但實際上它的用途是野外求生或者是觀賞收藏用，而絕對不是讓任何人可以隨便地隨時攜帶，所以只要發生隨身攜帶的話，該通報、該處置的本來就應該要處置啊！"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼會讓大家覺得說好像校園是一個化外之地？所以部長你正式的再做一次強調，如果老師搜到學生有帶任何的違禁品，尤其是有傷人的利器的時候，老師應該怎麼做？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，本來學校如果有碰到這種情形就有通報，這個通報當然就可以通報到我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有警察機關。"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：警察機關……"],["潘部長文忠：還有少輔會。"],["洪委員孟楷：警務機關，然後少年隊，對不對？最後，本席也要再1分鐘的時間來說明一下，剛剛你有提到高中的部分。在這一次我們有提到高中免學費，就開始要推動高中免學費，但是有所謂的排富條款，可是現在是補助了公立學校免學費、私立學校免學費，但是有一群人沒有被補助到，是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：對，因為當時高級中等教育法修法的時候，在委員會這邊，當然當時委員會這邊立了一個非常清楚的但書……"],["洪委員孟楷：今年2月高級中等學校全部都免學費上路嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，那個法規就是有一個但書啊！當時我有強調這個但書要不要去處理，但是朝野的立委在這上面有非常歧異的看法，所以當時立法上面就是排除。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是立法的原因嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：現在法規在……委員，我再請他們把法規給委員看。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們今年要推動的時候說這是政策面的考量？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，那個法規裡面當時……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說是很多的學校……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，它是有……"],["洪委員孟楷：私校的家長是被排除在外的？"],["潘部長文忠：對，它是有三種，一種就是直升到那個學校，辦理獨招，它是從招生不是從貧富的，從招生上面的規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！就是從招生的規定啊！"],["潘部長文忠：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席現在講的是這樣子有多少人、有多少學生？"],["潘部長文忠：好像兩千多位。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩千多個學生？"],["潘部長文忠：一屆啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在一屆兩千多個學生，這兩千多個學生變成是在整個政策下面，明明政府宣傳的是高中免學費，但是有兩千多個學生好像他們就不是高中生一樣，為什麼會突然間被這樣子排除在外？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為這個涉及到入學當時的規範，這個當時在……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在提出來，不管是什麼樣的原因，我現在講的是結果，結果就是有這樣，並且本席在今年開始，因為你們在已經開始實施之後才發覺說很多的家長他們自己看了，原來不是說政府宣傳很多高中免學費啊，但是他們孩子的高中為什麼沒有被納入？這樣子就是你們故意排除在外啊！他就一直問我們說難道他們不是臺灣人嗎？難道他們沒有納稅嗎？難道他們不是一般高中生嗎？確實他們也是高中生啊！要不要補救？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個涉及到修法。"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要檢討？"],["潘部長文忠：可以研議啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：可以研議？"],["潘部長文忠：但這個研議一定要大家有共識啦！因為那個要修高級中等教育法。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，但是應該要求教育部是不是先針對到底有多少人，並且要用到多少的預算先做一個評估？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，預算絕對不是大的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為不是問題，所以我們才會問說為什麼還要分族群？為什麼你還要分化、為什麼還要搞特權？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個是當時立法院朝野委員強調的，我把那個資料給你參考，你就會知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也有看過那個資料，但是重點在於這是你們的政策，不用再推給立法院……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們的政策要推動……"],["潘部長文忠：委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席具體要求教育部3天內提供本席資料，這個族群到底有多少、預計的預算以及後續你們要怎麼處理跟補救，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，在政策方面的討論我們本來就有整理過，OK。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","接下來請郭昱晴委員，在郭委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.22471875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.400343750000001,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.03784375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.23971875,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.15471875,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.84971875000001,"end":101.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.97284375000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.03159375000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.19784375,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.61346875,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.12971875000002,"end":159.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.00659375,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.12471875,"end":160.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.37721875,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.56284375,"end":160.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.57971875,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.64721875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.69784375,"end":160.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.71471875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.57909375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.43971875,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.03721875000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.99284375000002,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.02659375000002,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.22784375,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.26159375,"end":198.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.30784375000002,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.03221875000003,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.53784375,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.68971875000003,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.89221875,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.11159375000003,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.14534375000002,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.70596875,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.26159375,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.05034375000002,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.11784375000002,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.16846875000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.04596875000001,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.50159375,"end":248.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.56784375,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":239.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.27596875,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":242.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.88659375,"end":264.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.19221875,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.57971875000004,"end":300.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.82784375,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.70534375,"end":311.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.32846875,"end":334.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.24034375,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.93534375,"end":343.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":354.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.11471875,"end":359.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.41346875000005,"end":372.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.22159375,"end":380.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.32596875,"end":386.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.23221875,"end":405.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.44034375,"end":405.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.28409375,"end":405.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.38534375,"end":429.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.17409375000005,"end":408.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.93159375000005,"end":420.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.19721875000005,"end":422.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.19596875,"end":432.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.95096875,"end":431.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.63846875,"end":475.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.63409375000003,"end":435.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.82159375000003,"end":480.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.57596875,"end":493.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.25096875,"end":482.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.62471875000006,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.03159375,"end":524.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2578437500001,"end":520.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.83096875,"end":532.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.95721875,"end":526.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.4540937500001,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.03159375,"end":537.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.19596875,"end":537.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.2465937500001,"end":538.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.2634687500001,"end":547.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.4265937499999,"end":591.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.3334687500001,"end":549.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.78846875,"end":553.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.13534375,"end":574.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.33096875,"end":601.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.8359687500001,"end":600.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.32096875,"end":603.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.84409375,"end":601.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.9197187500001,"end":607.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.4128437500001,"end":612.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.25159375,"end":628.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.46846875,"end":638.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.6528437500001,"end":640.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.96034375,"end":644.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.20034375,"end":655.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.06096875,"end":645.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.82284375,"end":660.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.4340937500001,"end":660.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.51846875,"end":660.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.7040937500001,"end":673.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.21034375,"end":661.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.83409375,"end":666.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.4540937500001,"end":668.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.09096875,"end":669.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.9853437500001,"end":671.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.4953437500001,"end":677.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.27971875,"end":676.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.7434687500001,"end":684.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.8272187500002,"end":688.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.6953437500001,"end":704.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.8047187500001,"end":692.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.5790937500001,"end":714.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.0290937500001,"end":746.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.43346875,"end":746.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.83409375,"end":747.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.28971875,"end":748.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.3740937500002,"end":748.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.84221875,"end":754.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.65596875,"end":754.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.6303437500001,"end":766.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.26159375,"end":777.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.21909375,"end":770.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.0828437499999,"end":797.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.3859687500001,"end":779.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.1453437499999,"end":781.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.69346875,"end":782.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.45284375,"end":783.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":798.16784375,"end":800.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.7878437500001,"end":802.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.1453437500002,"end":807.17909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.547,"end":8.078,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請潘部長部長"},{"start":12.618,"end":36.183,"text":"委員好來潘部長去年韓國瑜及黑暗榮耀用校園暴力來題材讓造成全球也是排行冠軍那現在很多人重視到校園暴力的問題那本席先就教幾個校園暴力的問題有民調顯示說有近三成的兒少不認為自己在學校安全你有沒有看到這樣的一個報導"},{"start":37.339,"end":62.616,"text":"因為過去也有很多的相關調查相關資料只是這個我並沒有進一步比較客觀的去確認過平均高中職以下的暴力跟偏差行為一年有兩萬六千多件平均每天發生71件的暴力事件那去年調查發現有三成的兒校不認為自己在學校安全你不覺得這很諷刺嗎"},{"start":64.031,"end":78.481,"text":"所以通常來講家庭、校園感覺應該是合理上來說比較安全的地方但是居然有三成的兒校不管是國小、國中、高中生會認為是說在學校不安全我們這幾年投入那麼多的一個努力到底為什麼還會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":80.075,"end":105.866,"text":"我跟委員報告我想校園安全還有霸凌的這個議題那一定是要持續的來努力這個毋庸置疑那剛才委員談到那個數據的部分我跟委員報告12年相較於11年多大概8000多總個啦高中以下多8000多件的這個部分其實是因為我們一直比較希望要求學校通報不要隱匿因為通報才會有機會知道到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":107.226,"end":122.861,"text":"這樣我就直接請問嘛你覺得說現在的數據遲遲上升是因為通報變多還是案件變多委員這個要進一步去做確認那如果說你沒有辦法確認你為什麼憑什麼在這邊講說是因為通報變多這是你的邏輯啊有幾個因為我們的類型其實一直在擴大啦那當中對霸凌的比如通報數是3000多件那確認數大概是200多件"},{"start":134.092,"end":144.842,"text":"我是以霸凌因為霸凌有它的定義啦這不是因為孩子比如說受到比如跟同學發生衝突他覺得被霸凌但是如果說進一步的去確認是不是應該要再確認我只是跟委員報告那個數據我們掌握到的就是鼓勵通報一定是責無旁貸的事啦當然再來一個當然就而且也應該不應該有過去這種隱匿的漏息嘛對對 對不對委員那次還考我一次說我先請教我再請教你"},{"start":160.296,"end":160.336,"text":"主席"},{"start":178.194,"end":207.051,"text":"因為現在很多人會覺得是說是不是因為這個霸凌的事件頻傳而今年民心私中傳出報考的人數激增私立中學比頂尖的大學還要難考那這樣子的現象如果真的發生的時候我們怎麼樣重建我們公立體系我跟委員報告當然這個是一個比較普遍的這樣子的一個今年有沒有注意到這樣的一個數據私中的報考人數真的變多你說校園的一些安全事件會不會影響到部分教長我相信只要看到新聞難免"},{"start":208.112,"end":208.412,"text":"今年升國一﹗"},{"start":231.924,"end":248.074,"text":"總共人數是21萬相較於去年是18萬整整多三萬一千如果三萬一千多多少比例將近兩成你就會知道為什麼去讀師中的像你服務的新北新北要增加兩百班"},{"start":249.314,"end":263.239,"text":"這個方法如果以比例來看你要去想本來就想要去進去進入師中的一定會因為師中的民口不是一直變大嗎他就固定的所以我就這個人數是非常特殊的龍年跟兔年之間差了三萬一千人光國一"},{"start":264.559,"end":286.156,"text":"明年要升國一所以從那個數據我想我要跟委員報告的是這個訊息我也請署長一定要特別去留意但是對於師中過去因為私校法有一個57條還是第幾條有開放讓私立學校可以用各種的方式過去委員也經常指教不是委員委員會這邊都說像中部那種小型年考的說實在"},{"start":287.618,"end":308.796,"text":"9年義務教育台灣走過後還在出現這個現象這個我覺得我們教育機關是應該要來慎重的注意啦孩子即使是為了擠這個窄門結果說真話放棄了不然之前才有一個家長那個可怕的課程表這個也都是我們會覺得這個社會大家都在省思教育主管機關也會再注意這個事項"},{"start":310.358,"end":333.351,"text":"我們先不要把話插遠啦我覺得是說最重點是說現在霸凌事件頻傳造成普遍家長若不信任這個公立學校而造成大家是往私校擠就造成兩個現象嘛一個是越來越多人可能會去針對私立學校的一個報考那另外一個部分就是說對於公立學校我們的老師我們的教職員也會有士氣低落的影響嘛"},{"start":334.392,"end":358.974,"text":"等一下再來跟你就教這個部分你剛剛也提到了非常好本席等一下會問但我先講請教校園霸凌影片現在很多時候看到LINE群組轉傳我們會知道這個霸凌是因為那個影片本席之前也有提過就是說會有霸凌事件而會有其他人拍影片進夢的程度上他是要在欺負那個被害者他是想要在取樂他是想要在嘲笑他是想要把被害者"},{"start":362.957,"end":379.011,"text":"這一個部分另外一個部分可能是當下他想要做個記錄比如說像上禮拜有這個學生跟老師的這個衝突的時候就是當場教室裡面的同學把他拍下來那我現在先請教說霸凌影片出來之後的這個處理機制"},{"start":380.572,"end":404.989,"text":"有沒有跟我們相關單位來聯繫去做這個下架以及做心理後續的輔導是,謝謝委員這個提醒我跟你們報告就是近期有幾個校園的這個事件上因為在那個平台上面我們就會請要求學校因為一定會掌握到就是要跟iWIN做這方面的下架的要求至於委員剛才提到有些被Download下來以後就在那個社群裡面尤其是校園"},{"start":406.09,"end":428.491,"text":"對 這個是比較難的 因為他已經被 但是在那個平台裡面我們第一時間已經會這樣做那我也跟委員報告 這個真的我們要再努力了之前也有一個影片 我不知道我有沒有看到就是學生把老師什麼時候壓在然後用什麼 結果在查證以後 那個事情根本就不是這樣的事情不是嗎他不是 不是 也是在新北的一個學校"},{"start":429.311,"end":435.497,"text":"是老師講不是?同學講不是?還是你聽學校的講法?學校正式求證而且也正式說明有對外說明我要跟委員報告是網路的這些訊息確實我們要不斷地去做這方面當然像學校一個拍戲劇的影片結果把它當成"},{"start":450.292,"end":464.145,"text":"這個對非常多社會也是很震撼學生把老師綁在後頭然後用什麼板叉去弄那個騙子我就請署長第一次確實去查清楚到底是發生了什麼事情後來一查是瞭解新北的、汐止的某個區域的學校"},{"start":464.665,"end":466.187,"text":"那我現在要問的是說在霸凌影片的部分我們怎麼樣有做後續的一個輔導"},{"start":481.836,"end":508.493,"text":"我們就是一定會先做下架那之後如果像這一些因為還是會要求到縣市跟學校對於這個個案在後續的處理上面因為有雙方這個部分其實我們不是說下架就沒事了一定會去追蹤到因為這個可能就會進到多數的這些我們掌握到都會進行到霸凌尤其生對生的後續的這個處置的作業一直到這個案子是真正的做一個處置"},{"start":509.454,"end":531.285,"text":"好,剛剛部長你還有提到就是所謂剛剛葉元之委員問到戴彈簧刀的一個部分我先確認一下你們剛剛講的確實是彈簧刀嗎?是嘛,彈簧刀嗎?那如果說是彈簧刀的話,我們沒有任何的法令可以去規範嗎?沒有啊,文章事法的規範就是這樣啊什麼樣的?那就是戴著那個什麼刀蟹,這個本來就是可以通報的對啊"},{"start":532.546,"end":541.83,"text":"那個不是沒收的概念而已是啊那為什麼你剛剛回答的時候都沒有講這個方向沒有啦因為有人一直沒有在我要跟他報告說委員這個少事法的規範裡面這個已經不是讓老師單打獨鬥也不是讓學校單打獨鬥你本來就可以通報本時要特別強調的是不只是少事法社會秩序維護法也都有一樣的概念"},{"start":554.637,"end":568.032,"text":"彈簧刀雖然我們沒有在槍砲彈藥管理條例裡面沒有規範到彈簧刀但實際上它所的用途是野外求生或者是觀賞收藏用而絕對不是讓任何人可以隨便的隨時吸彈"},{"start":569.133,"end":590.911,"text":"所以只要發生隨身攜帶的話該通報該處置本來就應該要處置啊怎麼會讓大家覺得說好像校園是一個話外之地所以部長你正式的再做一次強調到底現在老師如果說有收到學生有帶任何的違禁品尤其是有傷人的利器的時候老師應該怎麼做"},{"start":591.591,"end":592.953,"text":"最後本席也要在一分鐘的時間來說明一下剛剛你有提到這個高中的一個部分"},{"start":613.345,"end":628.303,"text":"在這一次我們有提到說這個高中免學費這開始要推動高中免學費但是有所謂排付條款可是現在是補助了公立學校免學費、私立學校免學費但是有一群人是沒有被補助到"},{"start":629.922,"end":655.718,"text":"對 是不是因為當時高級中等教育法修法的時候在委員會這邊當然當時委員會這邊立了一個非常輕易的但書你現在今年二月要高級中等學校全部都免學費上路嗎?沒有 那個法規就是有個但書啊那個但書當時我有調出這個要不要去處理那個朝野的立委在這上面有非常奇異的看法所以當時立法上面就是排除"},{"start":656.897,"end":677.145,"text":"所以是立法的原因嗎?但是因為是你們今年要推動的時候,這是政策面的考量喔?所以說是很多的學校、私校的家長是被排除在外的喔?對,它是有三種,一種就是直升到學校或辦理讀招"},{"start":678.78,"end":679.361,"text":"有多少學生?"},{"start":689.762,"end":690.202,"text":"委員這個是因為這個是涉及到入學的規範"},{"start":714.39,"end":734.578,"text":"本席現在提出來不管是什麼樣的原因現在結果我現在講的是結果結果就是有這樣並且本席在今年開始因為你們已經開始實施了之後才發覺說很多的家長他們自己看了原來不是說政府宣傳很多啊高中免學費啊但是我的學我的孩子的高中為什麼沒有被納入"},{"start":735.478,"end":754.43,"text":"那這樣子就是你們故意排除在外啊他就一直問我們說難道我們不是台灣人嗎難道我們沒有納稅嗎難道我們不是一般高中生嗎確實他們也是高中生啊要不要補救要不要檢討可以研議啊可以研議但這個研議一定要大家有共識啦因為那個要修高級公能教育法"},{"start":754.71,"end":778.972,"text":"但是應該要求教育部是不是先針對到底有多少人並且要用到多少的預算先做一個評估委員那個預算絕對不是大的問題就是因為不是問題所以說我們才問說為什麼還要你分組群為什麼你還要分化為什麼還要搞特權這個是當時立法院朝野委員強調我把那個資料給你參考你就會知道本席有看過的資料當然重點在於是這是你們的政策"},{"start":779.312,"end":781.954,"text":"好,這個我們整理,本來就已經整理過,才做政策這方面的討論嘛,OK"}]}},{"id":"149967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ad6a5853db02fdf333919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a607e920e284d7c1245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:28:13 - 10:41:01","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":768,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:41:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:28:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時28分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院黃副秘書長，及法務部蔡部長和刑事警察局周局長。"],["主席：副秘書長、蔡部長、周局長，麻煩請上臺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副秘書長、部長、局長好。現在請教一下副秘書長，請問偵查不公開的法源依據為何？好像報告當中只有你們有寫。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，據此我們還有一個不公開的作業辦法對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：作業辦法是司法院跟行政院會銜發布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這是院部會銜發布的。那麼請問一下，哪些事項不得公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，包含偵查的程序跟偵查內容跟所得的心證……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那哪些人不能公開，剛很多委員都問，哪些人必須遵守？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：包含檢察官、檢察事務官，還有司法警察，還有辯護人、告訴代理人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯。包括司法警察、司法警察官、檢察官、辯護人，而且在作業辦法第九條當中自白、證據、卷宗、偵查方式、程序、計畫，甚至涉嫌隱私都不可以公開，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這些人要遵守，請問一下什麼時候有例外？什麼時候可以公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，在作業辦法第八條有規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，幫你列出來了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，書面上面已經有列，例外可以公開的主要就是國家安全、社會治安或者偵辦犯罪提醒大眾防範，或者是請求社會大眾協助調查證據，或者是通緝的人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比如說像暴力犯脫逃對不對？我們要趕快發布。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長同意嗎，偵查不公開也有例外必須要遵守的？好，現在請教部長，請問一下在不久之前金廈水域的快艇翻覆案，這個事故它的航跡圖是符合哪一項必須公開的？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這也是涉及到整個國家安全、社會治安，還有大家所矚目，所以有一些疑問可以適度地來對外說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那誰來判斷？是由偵辦中的檢調、司法警察官、檢察官，還是由誰來認定這個是符合什麼什麼，因為你們訂了標準，誰來認定？"],["蔡部長清祥：由檢察官跟其他司法警察及辦案等人員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚了，司法偵辦的主體可以根據這個得例外公開的項目來判斷是否符合，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果檢察官認為這個沒有到達那個情況，他就可以不公開，是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：他會按照整個案情，或是外界一些質疑的、需要澄清說明的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是部長，顯然這樣的答復在不久之前，立法院有在野黨委員仍不滿意，他就說他要調閱。請問一下副秘書長，立法院調閱權的依據跟範圍？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：看立法院本身的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院可以調閱嗎？有沒有大法官的解釋？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：是，有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：釋字729？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：對，釋字729。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那它規定什麼？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：偵查中的案件要遵守偵查秘密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那什麼時候可以調閱？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：如果沒有涉及偵查秘密……"],["鍾委員佳濱：偵查中就不得公開，偵查終結、特定議案、有重大職務相關，立法院為了行使職權才能公開，部長你同意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以剛剛那個案子來講，如果立法院要行使調閱權，必須等到偵查完畢，然後我們根據立法委員的職權行使需要，那麼國會就可以調查偵查中的卷證嗎？檢察官要公開是一回事，他可以判斷哪些符合重大社會公益，但是國會要調閱，這是誰可以來決定？偵查中是不是就不得調閱？"],["黃秘書長麟倫：依照大法官解釋，偵查中的案件調查是要受限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是受限的，好，那這很清楚了嘛！司法院副秘書長都講了。那我來問一下部長，假設以剛剛那個案例來講，同一個證據，目前司法警察官或者檢察官在進行偵辦當中，結果民意機關要調閱，A機關的B公文是重要證據，那民意機關要調閱B公文，實務上會不會影響到偵查？"],["蔡部長清祥：會影響到偵查的話，就不應該對外。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛講到偵查中是不能調閱的，要調閱的話，如果這個證據正在進行偵辦中、在使用，這樣的調閱會不會影響到偵查？"],["蔡部長清祥：由檢察官來判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是由檢察官判斷嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以法務部一向認為，有關這個題目，檢察官的判斷很重要。好，那繼續往下問，請問一下，如果國會在行使文件調閱權卻調不到文件，那我乾脆找看文件的人，我調檢察官來、我調部長來，因為部長看過……"],["蔡部長清祥：我沒有看過，我不會看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，假設嘛！假設有些事情、在偵辦中的案件，有些公務機關有看過，但因為偵辦中，檢察官在偵辦了，公務機關不提供，是不是這樣？既然不提供，至少我調你們的長官來問，目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權，把其他國家的國會聽證權如何行使搬到臺灣來。請問，如果按照這個例子，你的文件我不能調，看過文件的人，我調來問可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：基本上應該不可以啦！因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察官如果認為這影響到他後續的偵查，任何人都不能講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他不講，他可不可以實施緘默權？他不講可能會被判藐視國會喔！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是我們遵守偵查不公開嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，所以我們剛才談了最近很多的熱門議題，偵查中的案件國會可不可以有調閱權，如果沒有辦法調閱，可不可以辦理聽證權？聽證權來了，可不可以緘默？如果不講，可不可以判藐視國會？","好，我們再談一個問題，包括不自證己罪的問題，如果被告質詢原告，要迴避嗎？有些司法案件，如果民意代表本身為本案的被告，就偵查不公開議題來質詢檢調司法機關，您覺得有沒有迴避的必要？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想我們辦案的檢調會遵守規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是誰該迴避？是民意代表要迴避，還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想大家都要遵守這個原則，不管是當事人或是辦案人員，大家都要心中有一把尺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於目前國會在行使質詢權的同時，我們要很謹慎注意，如果這些事情未來可能發展到刑事案件，千萬、千萬不要被告變法官。","所以我們就來看，有一個笑話在「八尺門的辯護人」中，3位有沒有看過這部電視劇？有沒有聽過？有啦！在這個電視劇當中，有一個很有名的對白，有一次開庭被告遲到，法官就提議來做說笑話比賽，有檢察官跟律師同意之後，法官就說這個笑話叫做「無罪推定」，這當然是一個諷刺，檢察官也說「偵查不公開」是個笑話，律師也說「律師倫理」是個笑話，這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的。部長，你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果就檢察官的部分，我們是要嚴守啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，就是不能把它當作笑話。好，那我們來看一下現實上的情況，我請教部長跟署長，署長，還記得一個案件嗎？有一個很無辜的人，他說現場留了6個彈殼，這個案子，大家記憶深刻對不對？有沒有？結果後來就暴露了這個人可能是嫌疑犯，然後這個人說：沒想到一早醒來被全國通緝。局長有沒有記得這個案子？"],["周局長幼偉：報告，知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是烏龍事件？"],["周局長幼偉：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要查察一個重大的刑案，結果不小心變成個人的隱私洩露，部長，你覺得這個事情算不算違反偵查不公開，造成當事人隱私受損的情況？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是辦案的內容會影響到偵查，那就需要檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，你認為呢？這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩，造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損？"],["周局長幼偉：這個應該是有，但問題是這個案子本來是我們在內部群組裡面討論的一個對象，並沒有對外公布，但是記者不知道怎麼拿到，當然我們會檢討……"],["鍾委員佳濱：欸，你們又來囉，內部討論被記者公布，你們先檢討記者怎麼拿到的，不去檢討是誰洩漏出去的，你們難道是這樣的態度嗎？"],["周局長幼偉：這個我們自己本身也會檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛其實還有委員問到一個案子，是某個縣長的案子，你們證人在現場的對話說：縣長搞定了，餐券都用光了。有沒有這樣的事例發生？局長，有沒有？不曉得。法務部地檢署，有沒有？知道講哪個案子吧？剛才羅委員質疑的案子，這樣有沒有違反偵查不公開？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話，當然我們要檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是你們辦案人員，但人家有辦法不當取得，那你覺得責任是誰的？"],["蔡部長清祥：都有責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有責任，很好。來，我跟你講，剛剛黃國昌委員問了一個很容易回答的問題，記者可以跑到檢察官辦公室嗎？可不可以？"],["蔡部長清祥：他如果用來賓或是用其他的身分，經過登記，請他進去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，請你告訴部長……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有說不可以啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長，請你告訴部長，你們為了落實偵查不公開的作業辦法，你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點，包括不得帶媒體辦案、不得洩露現場模擬、不得讓嫌疑犯接受拍攝，還要設置適當的封鎖區、卷宗要保密、當事人要掩蔽等等。部長，你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我知道他們有訂辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有訂辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們也有訂。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的辦法說要設發言人，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要劃設禁制區，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果要求檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區，你覺得可行嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果就採訪的行為要受到限制，如果不是採訪，而是其他的因素，例如來賓拜訪，那我們當然依照規定來做嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你要慎思啊！今天檢察官他的桌上有很多待偵辦中的案子，今天有媒體朋友來拜訪他，你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把它列為禁制區嗎？為了避免不小心內容外洩。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們有列為禁制區，要刷卡才能進去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官的辦公室是禁制區？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，那個區域是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：記者可以進去？"],["蔡部長清祥：記者如果有經過登記或是說有通知……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你們好好檢討。","我們看最後一個，這也是一個實證的例子──媽媽嘴案，無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人，生意全毀了，我覺得今天我們要落實偵查不公開，要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整地方，所以請教法務部跟警政署，因為警政署長沒有來，我就請教法務部，可不可以盤點過去1年內有違反偵查不公開的案例？你們可不可以盤點一下？整理一下到底是哪些樣態？如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向什麼，比如說可能是媒體藉由訪客的身分從檢察官辦公室不小心看到，如果有這種情況，那你們就要慎重地考慮偵查不公開的相關場域保密辦法，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先針對過去1年違反偵查不公開的案例，把它盤點一下，好嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後3個月提出改進辦法。"],["蔡部長清祥：是、好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，謝謝副秘書長、謝謝局長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，待會吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.85534375,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.66534375,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.06596875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.12096875,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.93471875,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.540968750000005,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.40159375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.422218750000006,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.58221875,"end":64.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.16409375,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.29846875,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.08284375000001,"end":78.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.90909375000001,"end":80.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.65971875000001,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.37159375,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.91909375,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.42534375000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.45909375000001,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.61096875000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.64471875000001,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.69534375,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.72909375,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.81346875000001,"end":98.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.00721875,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.05284375000001,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.84034375,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.94971875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.35471875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.28221875000001,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.17159375000001,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.32534375,"end":149.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.61096875,"end":158.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.89221875,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.14784375000002,"end":171.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.61596875,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.43346875,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.99846875,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.21346875,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.79909375000003,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.95846875,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.31284375,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.52721875,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.83909375000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.87659375,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.30159375000002,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.80346875,"end":214.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.06909375,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.33471875,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.92909375000002,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.20284375000003,"end":224.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.50159375,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":230.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.12159375000002,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.20596875,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.27346875,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.10034375,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.15096875,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.23534375000003,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.43784375,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.67409375000003,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.69096875000002,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.99471875,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.46221875,"end":237.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.79971875,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.12846875000002,"end":245.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.25846875000002,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.19471875000002,"end":248.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.23659375000003,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.82284375,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.43284375,"end":265.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.04409375,"end":267.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.34784375000004,"end":274.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.72221875,"end":275.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.73471875,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.55721875,"end":279.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.46409375,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.15596875,"end":283.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.05409375,"end":290.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.68596875000003,"end":299.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.83221875000004,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.54909375,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.75096875,"end":307.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.86471875,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.72534375000004,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.76221875000005,"end":315.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.77909375,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.16659375,"end":324.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.75659375000004,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.19846875,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.26159375000003,"end":336.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.05846875000003,"end":337.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.35784375000003,"end":342.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.88034375,"end":354.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.57471875000005,"end":355.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.57034375,"end":358.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.81034375,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.94471875000005,"end":369.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.72846875000005,"end":370.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.26409375000003,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.96846875,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.38596875,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.97534375000004,"end":385.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.87346875000003,"end":388.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.13034375,"end":395.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.27721875000003,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.06471875000005,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.57784375,"end":416.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.43409375000005,"end":419.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.20596875,"end":421.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.65284375000005,"end":426.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.63096875,"end":426.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.72784375000003,"end":427.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.96409375,"end":428.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.52096875,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.06034375,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.07721875000004,"end":433.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.19534375,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.48221875,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.87034375,"end":434.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.10659375,"end":434.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.44409375000004,"end":434.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.46096875,"end":434.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.47784375000003,"end":434.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.49471875,"end":434.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.51159375000003,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.97471875,"end":441.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.00409375000004,"end":451.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.03221875,"end":470.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.14721875000004,"end":471.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.51409375000003,"end":473.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.26909375,"end":480.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.88409375000003,"end":482.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.09471875,"end":485.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.60909375000006,"end":489.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.50721875000005,"end":496.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.67471875,"end":501.18471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.18471875000006,"end":516.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.08096875,"end":517.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.0090937499999,"end":520.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.5022187500001,"end":525.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.3959687500001,"end":530.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.1084687499999,"end":530.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.44596875,"end":531.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.9140937500001,"end":532.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.40346875,"end":537.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.2253437500001,"end":543.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.38471875,"end":549.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.95346875,"end":557.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.98596875,"end":567.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.98034375,"end":574.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.9622187500001,"end":575.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.02971875,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.97471875,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.02534375,"end":581.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.9653437500001,"end":582.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.8090937500001,"end":585.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.0659687500001,"end":590.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.62221875,"end":593.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.4865937500001,"end":600.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.30409375,"end":606.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.6028437500001,"end":610.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.8215937500001,"end":612.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.26846875,"end":613.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.3022187500001,"end":613.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.3359687500001,"end":613.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.7409687500001,"end":615.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.1540937500001,"end":619.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.8115937499999,"end":622.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.10221875,"end":624.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.11909375,"end":624.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.3215937500001,"end":624.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.35534375,"end":631.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.73846875,"end":639.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.3359687500001,"end":652.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.44784375,"end":653.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.4097187500001,"end":656.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.3797187499999,"end":660.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.95721875,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.9740937500001,"end":661.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.0247187500001,"end":669.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.9778437500001,"end":664.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.85096875,"end":665.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.88471875,"end":666.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.96846875,"end":669.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.8290937500001,"end":671.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.5209687500001,"end":683.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.2534687500001,"end":682.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.46846875,"end":684.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.0165937500001,"end":703.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.13221875,"end":704.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.3090937500001,"end":706.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.4734687499999,"end":705.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.0134687500001,"end":706.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.0303437500002,"end":706.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.4522187500002,"end":706.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.89096875,"end":707.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.04284375,"end":707.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.22846875,"end":707.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.7009687500001,"end":708.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.03846875,"end":733.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.21159375,"end":735.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.46034375,"end":742.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.30721875,"end":743.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.93159375,"end":745.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.45034375,"end":754.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.4109687499999,"end":754.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.71471875,"end":756.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.8915937500001,"end":759.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.0303437500002,"end":761.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.20721875,"end":763.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.00034375,"end":767.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.21471875,"end":769.5647187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.193,"end":21.219,"text":"主席、在黨的委員、先進、列協的政府機關所長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請﹖等等﹖螢幕還沒出來﹖等一下﹖等一下螢幕"},{"start":45.131,"end":63.933,"text":"好,那有請司法院黃副秘書長及法務部蔡部長和刑事警察局周局長周局長麻煩請上台副秘書長部長好,還有局長好來,現在請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":66.329,"end":85.854,"text":"請問一下偵查不公開的法律依據為何?好像報告當中只有你們有寫。是,對,那個刑事處罰245條。好,那麼一句子呢,我們還有一個不公開的作業辦法,對不對?作業辦法是司法院跟行政院會選發布。是的,這是院部會選發布的。那麼請問一下這些哪些事項不得公開?"},{"start":88.393,"end":111.667,"text":"根文報告包含說他是偵查程序跟偵查內容跟所得的這個新證那哪些人不能公開?哪些人不能公開?剛剛很多委員都問哪些人必須遵守?當然檢察官、檢察書官還有那個司法警察還有那個辯護人告示袋人包括司法警察、司法警察官、檢察官、辯護人那而且在作為判決第9條當中自白證據、卷宗、偵查方式、程序"},{"start":113.281,"end":141.043,"text":"計劃甚至設計隱私都不可以公開對不對是好那這些人要遵守那請問一下什麼時候有例外什麼時候可以公開那跟委員報告在那個作業辦法的那個第8條很好把你列出來了對對對那已經那個書面上面有列主要都是主要就是要例外可以公開的就是國家安全社會治安或者偵辦犯罪提醒大眾防範或者是請求社會大眾協助調查證據或者是通緝的人"},{"start":141.343,"end":144.086,"text":"那請問一下在不久之前一個驚嚇水域的快艇翻覆案那這個似乎他的航跡圖是符合哪一項必須公開的"},{"start":159.339,"end":187.287,"text":"因為這也是涉及到整個國家安全、社會治安還有大家所矚目嘛所以有一些疑問那可以適度的來對外說明那誰來判斷是由偵辦中的檢調、司法檢察官、檢察官還是由誰來認定說啊這個是符合什麼什麼因為你們定了標準誰來認定由檢察官跟其他司法警察好很清楚了"},{"start":187.987,"end":198.867,"text":"司法偵辦的主體他可以根據這個得例外公開的項目來判斷是否符合對不對是所以如果說檢察官認為說這個沒有到達那個情況他就可以不公開是不是這樣子"},{"start":199.754,"end":217.121,"text":"他會按照整個案情或是外界的一些質疑的需要澄清說明的但是部長顯然這樣的答覆呢在前不久之前立法院有在野黨委員不滿意他就說他要調閱那請問一下副秘書長立法院調閱權的依據跟範圍是"},{"start":221.21,"end":230.14,"text":"立法院可以調閱嗎?有沒有大法官的解釋?4-729那他規定什麼?在偵查中的案件要遵守偵查密碼但什麼時候可以調閱?"},{"start":240.171,"end":262.006,"text":"如果沒有涉及到這些偵查秘密偵查中就不得公開偵查終結特定一案有重大職務相關立法院會的行使職權才能公開部長你同意嗎那所以以剛剛那個案子來講其實如果立法院要行使調閱權必須等到他偵查完畢然後我們根據我們立法院委員會的職權行使需要那麼國會這樣就可以調查偵查中的案卷證嗎國會可以調查偵查中的卷證嗎"},{"start":267.688,"end":289.861,"text":"檢察官要公開示意為是他可以判斷哪些符合重大社會公義但是國會要調閱這個是誰可以來決定偵查中是不是就不得調閱那依照那個大法官偵查中的案件的話這個是調查是要受限是受限的好那這很清楚了嘛司法院副秘書長都講了那我來問一下部長"},{"start":290.842,"end":309.833,"text":"那麼假設啦以剛剛那個案例來講同一個證據目前司法官、司法警察官或者說檢察官在進行偵辦當中結果呢民意機關呢要調閱這個A機關的B公文是重要證據那民意要調閱B公文會不會影響到偵查?呃...會影響到偵查的話就不應該來對外"},{"start":315.799,"end":317.84,"text":"請問一下如果國會在行使文件調閱權 調不到文件"},{"start":337.088,"end":354.818,"text":"那我乾脆找在看文件的人我叫檢察官來我叫部長來因為部長看過請問我沒有看過我不會看到假設嘛假設有些事情在偵辦中的案件有些公務機關有看過但因為偵辦中了嘛檢察官在偵辦了嘛公務機關不提供嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":355.618,"end":384.465,"text":"那不提供那至少我調你們的長官來問目前有在野黨主張要辦理國會聽證權在其他的國家國會聽證權的五個行使到辦到台灣來請問如果按照這個例子如果你的文件我不能調看過文件的人我調來問可以嗎基本上應該不可以因為我們要尊重檢察官獨立行使職權檢察官如果認為這個是影響到他後續的偵查那如果他不講他說他可不可以實施檢討權"},{"start":386.8,"end":387.48,"text":"來 如果被告質詢原告"},{"start":415.652,"end":438.169,"text":"那麼要迴避嗎有些司法案件如果說民意代表本身為本案的被告就偵查不公開議題來諮詢檢調司法機關您覺得有沒有迴避的必要我想我們的辦案的檢調他會遵守規定那是誰該迴避是民意代表要迴避還是被傳喚、被邀請來國會做聽證或被質詢的人要迴避"},{"start":442.045,"end":470.404,"text":"我想大家都要遵守這個原則不管是當事人或是辦案人員大家都在心中有一把尺所以我之前對於目前國會在刑死諮詢權的同時我們要很謹慎的去注意到如果這些事情未來可能發展到刑死刑事案件千萬千萬不要被告變法官所以我們就來看現在有一個笑話就是在一個八尺門的辯護人三位有沒有看過這部電視劇"},{"start":472.566,"end":495.587,"text":"有沒有聽過有啦齁在這個電視劇當中呢有一個很有名的對白齁他有一次開庭被告遲到法官就提議說來說笑話比賽檢察官跟律師同意了法官就說這個笑話叫做什麼無罪推定這當然是一個諷刺啦檢察官也說偵查不公開是個笑話律師也說律師倫理是個笑話這是從電視影集裡面拿出來的部長你可以認同這樣對現實的諷刺嗎"},{"start":498.054,"end":525.07,"text":"如果就檢察官的部分我們是要嚴守啦很好就不能把他當作笑話好我們來看一下但現實上呢我請亞部長跟署長來署長齁還記得一個案件嗎有一個很無辜的人啊他說欸現場留6個蛋殼這個這個案子大家記憶深刻對不對有沒有結果呢後來呢就暴露了這個可能是嫌疑犯然後呢這個人呢就說沒想到一早醒來呢被全國通緝"},{"start":526.912,"end":543.327,"text":"局長有沒有記的這個案子?報告知道這是個烏龍事件你們要查查一個重大的刑案結果呢不小心變成一個個人的隱私洩露了部長你覺得這個事情算不算有違反偵查不公開造成當事人隱私受損的情況"},{"start":544.414,"end":574.061,"text":"如果是在辦案的內容啊那會影響到偵查那就需要檢討了局長你認為這個案子有沒有因為偵查中不慎的資訊外洩造成無辜當事人的隱私跟個人權益受損這個應該是有但是問題是這個案子本來是在我們內部群組裡面在討論的一個對象並沒有對外公布但是記者不知道怎麼拿到的欸欸欸你們要來要來囉內部討論被記者公布你們先研討記者怎麼拿到的不去檢討是誰洩露出去的"},{"start":574.261,"end":600.108,"text":"你難道是這樣的態度嗎?這個我們會,我們自己本身也會檢討好,剛剛的其實還有委員問到的就是有一個案子齁,欸,這個某個案子齁某個縣長的案子,那麼你們證人的對話你們證人的對話說,這場搞定了,餐券都用光了有沒有這樣的事件發生?有沒有這樣的事例發生?局長有沒有?不曉得,那法務部第1檢署有沒有這樣講的那個案子吧?剛剛羅委員解釋的那個案子,再問委員長他不公開?"},{"start":601.308,"end":622.077,"text":"如果是辦案人員把這種內容對外公布的話當然我們要檢討那如果人有不是你們辦案人員人家有辦法不當取得那你覺得是責任是誰的都有責任啊都有責任很好來我跟你講齁剛剛呢黃國昌委員問了一個黃總統說一個我很同意記者可以跑到檢查官辦公室嗎"},{"start":624.424,"end":652.441,"text":"他如果用來賓的身份或是用其他的如果登記那請他進去沒有說不可以啦局長請你告訴部長你們為了落實偵查不公開的做辦法你們訂定了一個警察機關偵辦刑案及處理新聞遵守偵查不公開的注意要點包括什麼包括不得代媒體辦案不得洩露現場模擬不得讓嫌疑犯的接受拍攝還要設上適當封鎖區案中要卷中要保密等等等當事人要掩蔽"},{"start":653.522,"end":669.581,"text":"部長 你有沒有看過他們警政署訂的這個辦法我知道他們有訂辦法阿你們是有訂辦法 有沒有我們也有訂阿你們辦法說什麼 要設發驗人對不對是要發射禁制區對不對是那如果要求說檢察官的辦公室列入禁制區 你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":671.612,"end":672.252,"text":"部長,你要慎思啊"},{"start":686.075,"end":705.509,"text":"今天檢察官他的桌上有很多帶偵辦中的案子今天有媒體的朋友來拜訪他你覺得檢察官的辦公室不應該把他列為一個為了避免不小心內容外洩應該列為禁制區嗎是 我們有列為禁制區啊檢察官的辦公室是禁制區檢察官的辦公室是禁制區記者可以進去"},{"start":708.091,"end":733.624,"text":"記者他如果有經過登記或是說有通知所以請你們好好檢討我們看最後一個就是這也是一個實證例子媽媽嘴案無辜的咖啡店老闆被指控殺人生意全毀了那麼我覺得這個今天我們要落實偵查不公開要從實務上來檢討那個規範有沒有需要調整的地方所以請法務部跟警政署因為警政署沒有來我就請到法務部可不可以盤點過去一年內有違反偵查不公開的案例"},{"start":734.264,"end":761.143,"text":"可不可以你們攀連一下整理一下到底是哪些樣態如果這些樣態有很具體的可以指向比如說可能媒體呢藉由訪客的身份從檢察官辦公室不小心看到如果有這種情況那你們就要慎重的考慮你們的這個偵查不公開相關的場域的保密辦法可以嗎?可以先在整好過去一年對不對偵查違反這個案例把它攀連一下好嗎?好然後呢三個月提出改進辦法"},{"start":762.287,"end":763.952,"text":"是,好。可以嗎?謝謝。好,謝謝副秘書長,謝謝局長,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a76cc34c81acb967825cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6463ad1f040b56f5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:28:41 - 10:39:22","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":641,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:39:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:28:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時28分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，薛部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：薛部長，我們二個都是醫生，發生這樣的事情，真的是很遺憾。而且3個月的時間，就讓他小小的生命沒有辦法繼續長大。我們看到第二期計畫投入了400多億，我們政府到底做了什麼？我先問一個問題，「保母」這個詞、這個單字是從什麼時候開始講的？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我沒有辦法……"],["盧委員縣一：保母這個詞是從禮記就有了，就是從西元500年、600年就有了。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以很早以前就有了。"],["盧委員縣一：它的位階是在老師、慈母之下的第三個位階，也就是說，其實這個工作是非常重要的。我想問你第一個問題，有沒有這個劉姓保母的精神鑑定或者是精神報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望以後如果要成為保母的人，要有你的精神或者心智的鑑定，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們看到他跟他妹妹LINE聊天的內容，就已經發覺他很不正常啊！為什麼他可以擔任保母？"],["薛部長瑞元：這種反社會人格異常的人，其實是……"],["盧委員縣一：如果是全面性的，就是做一個比較通盤的心理評估，那也是可以啊！如果確定要當保母的話，應該要做1天或是2天所謂的精神鑑定啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在……"],["盧委員縣一：我覺得這是需要做的，不然一而再再而三發生這樣的事情……"],["薛部長瑞元：全國保母有兩萬多人……"],["盧委員縣一：好，沒有關係，我們努力看看，好不好？不然你花了那麼多預算、407億，都還是沒有進步的話，你就要去想想問題到底出在哪裡。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好。第二個問題，他為何轉換那麼多保母，從從出養一到出養四，這個問題是怎麼來的，可以告訴我嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：一開始的時候，是家屬自己去找了保母，然後當他要出養的時候……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，一、二、三都沒有問題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：一、二的時間並沒有很長，主要是第三個……"],["盧委員縣一：如果他們都照顧得很好，為什麼會換到第四？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們就針對這一點去做研議，就是他轉到兒福聯盟之後，為什麼兒福聯盟堅持一定要換保母，就是這件事情，因為兒福聯盟……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我看到的是，9月1號的時候就簽約了，然後9月25號兒盟第一次到保母家訪視，他寫了小孩有瘀青，瘀青對我們醫生來講是非常大的事情，而且是在臉部、在頭部，只要是這個的話，他是不是要做一個全身的照相？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["盧委員縣一：以後要有這樣子一個insight，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以這個部分剛剛我在口頭報告裡面有提到，我們必須要把checking list弄出來……"],["盧委員縣一：他1號簽約，25號就有瘀青了，對不對？然後26號社會局收案訪視完成，然後再過1個月，他說「較安靜」，就我的理解來講，如果是較安靜的話，是不是lethargy？就是比較昏昏欲睡的，這是不是已經是高危險群了？如果就醫生來看的話，就已經高度懷疑他被虐待了，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然就社工的專業裡面，也許沒有辦法去判斷這個啦！"],["盧委員縣一：OK，到底他有沒有看到，我是覺得不太可能，又加上11月的時候是牙齒掉了，牙齒掉了這件事情他有提出來，是被他打到牙齒掉下來，還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來，我覺得這時候就可以知道暴力與非暴力因素。那已經是死前一個月的事。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：所以一而再、再而三，越來越誇張，後來竟然只用LINE來回覆，最後就是通報急救。也就是可能只有第一次有看到，第二次、第三次可能都沒有看到。"],["薛部長瑞元：這點目前檢調正在調查，到底他是不是有去看？事實上有沒有去看？怎麼樣看？這點檢調現在在調查。這是社工的訪視報告，縱然如他所述，但這中間……"],["盧委員縣一：就以上我所講的重點來看，若訪視時有看到比較異常的就要高度懷疑，不要再信任那個讓他受傷的人！"],["薛部長瑞元：而且訪視報告應該在他的上級督導下，也應該要提出來……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我在此要提出疑問，為什麼事發3個月後才有檢討機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，臺北市、新北市的檢討報告都還沒來。依照我們的規定，必須在縣市政府通報的10天內要召開兒虐檢討報告，俟檢討報告來……"],["盧委員縣一：所以是地方政府的錯？是地方政府的錯嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這件事是沒有做到。兩個禮拜會送到我們衛福部，我們再根據其檢討報告再去……"],["盧委員縣一：到底是哪一個環節？這三個裡面，到底是衛福部、縣市政府，還是兒福聯盟？"],["薛部長瑞元：縣市政府沒有做檢討報告，這是確定的。到現在為止報告都還沒出來。"],["盧委員縣一：第三個問題，按照問題所呈現的來看，訪視制度需不需要馬上改善？你心裡面有沒有構想？"],["薛部長瑞元：就這部分，尤其對一些比較特殊的個案，訪視的制度必須要改善！訪視的頻率以及……"],["盧委員縣一：現在參與訪視的專業人員有哪些？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前主要還是社工人員。"],["盧委員縣一：只有社工嗎？現在不是有專責醫師制度？"],["薛部長瑞元：看他安置在什麼樣的……"],["盧委員縣一：有專責醫師以後，社工與護理人員不用訪視嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：護理人員是在進入專責醫師以後……"],["盧委員縣一：多久一次？護士多久一次？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上1個月一次。"],["盧委員縣一：醫生半年一次？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。但1個月一次是一定要把小孩子帶到……"],["盧委員縣一：如果因為舟車勞頓的話能不能增加視訊？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["盧委員縣一：因為3歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體權，就是要全部打開讓醫護人員看，可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["盧委員縣一：如果有這一項的話，這件事情應該就不會發生了！上次有問簡署長目前社工的比例，我們常常講的醫生服務的人口比是七百多比一，那社工呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為社工分好幾種不同的業務……"],["盧委員縣一：是，按照現在你所知道的？"],["簡署長慧娟：現在是一比三十五。"],["盧委員縣一：一比三十五？"],["簡署長慧娟：個案部分。"],["盧委員縣一：個案？不是全人口比？"],["薛部長瑞元：負責35個個案。"],["簡署長慧娟：每20萬人有一個社福中心。"],["盧委員縣一：我覺得明顯不夠！"],["簡署長慧娟：總共有156個社福中心。"],["盧委員縣一：我還是覺得明顯不夠，對不對？20萬人才一個社福中心？社福中心裡面有多少個社工？"],["簡署長慧娟：另外還有保護體系。"],["盧委員縣一：我們總覺得社工不夠，社工的待遇不好，是不是？所以我們要怎麼幫他們想辦法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是整體性問題，所以要改善服務內容以及待遇等等，這些都是我們要努力的方向。"],["盧委員縣一：就檢討措施來說，裡面有一個是要加強訪視重點與訪視員的敏感度。敏感度大家都會講，但什麼叫做敏感度？你可以告訴我嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：如同剛剛委員所提，有看到腫一個包，此時就要意識到……"],["盧委員縣一：你要怎麼考試？"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是考試的問題，而是……"],["盧委員縣一：就是因為沒有考試，也沒有勾稽或者變成稽查重點，這樣就不會有敏感度，永遠都不會有！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這部分就是我們未來要努力的方向，也就是看到什麼東西就必須要意識到……"],["盧委員縣一：那就是敏感度！既然知道，就要列入成為訓練重點，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對、對。"],["盧委員縣一：剛剛菁徽委員一直說都是地方政府的錯，所以我就不知道該怎麼讓您說……"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛我的口頭報告裡面，其實對於中央政府應該負的責任都有提到了。"],["盧委員縣一：我們剛才講到死亡率問題。就是現在國人的小朋友大概還是在千分之二點八，還是千分之四點多，對不對？我們原住民是一倍！之所以一倍，是因為我們比較處於交通弱勢，醫療資源也比較缺乏，所以在建立專責制度或訪視時必須多所變革或者權宜，也就是讓他們更方便，讓照顧的人或被評估的人，或者這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓，因為有時候到村莊去有12個小時以上的距離，好不好？因為我們的死亡率高一倍！不僅我們低於OECD標準，實則全國都低於OECD，更何況是我們？我們已經不是開發中國家，而是落後國家了，好不好？我們一起努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員的質詢，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"],["主席：我們繼續委員的發言質詢。","接下來我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.20909375,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.69784375,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.718468750000003,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.840343750000002,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.17659375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.99034375,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.63909375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.25471875,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.67159375000001,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.32846875,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.65721875,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.88846875,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.22909375,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.29659375,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.28784375000001,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.38846875,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":99.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.43784375,"end":101.50034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.87159375,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.47409375000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.60471875,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":114.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.54471875,"end":122.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.67534375000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.44534375,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.14096875,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.10159375,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.77159375000002,"end":155.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.04096875000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.30221875,"end":155.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.60159375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":156.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.12721875,"end":167.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.49846875,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.19846875000002,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.38784375,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.50971875000002,"end":185.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.90909375,"end":190.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.98846875,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.03909375,"end":192.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.62534375,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.27034375000002,"end":196.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.30409375000002,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.65846875000003,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.44284375,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.86846875,"end":203.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.65721875000003,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.23909375000002,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.69471875000002,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.96471875,"end":208.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.11659375000002,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.02784375000002,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.04409375,"end":213.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.34784375,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.95909375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.43971875000003,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.72659375,"end":219.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.79409375,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.17284375000003,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.34471875000003,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.88471875000002,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.85846875000001,"end":250.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.18596875000003,"end":250.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":261.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.09596875,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.23909375,"end":261.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.59346875,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.04846875000004,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.47409375,"end":271.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.12346875000003,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.15721875,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.17409375,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.90346875,"end":284.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.26909375,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.41659375,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.47471875,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.97596875,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.94971875000005,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.00034375,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.08471875000004,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.10159375,"end":304.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.38346875,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.36159375,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.22221875,"end":315.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.16721875,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.31471875,"end":319.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.86284375,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.47034375000004,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.16596875000005,"end":339.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.02471875000003,"end":339.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.35346875000005,"end":340.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.44596875,"end":352.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.22909375,"end":356.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.90409375,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.52346875,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.35846875000004,"end":361.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.00346875,"end":366.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.59409375,"end":373.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.60971875,"end":384.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":378.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.27096875,"end":383.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.08471875000004,"end":385.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.62034375,"end":397.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.47596875000005,"end":393.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.55159375000005,"end":395.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.01534375,"end":397.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.70721875000004,"end":399.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.95596875,"end":405.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.25034375,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.84471875,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.22784375000003,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.01659375,"end":423.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.95659375,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.65221875000003,"end":426.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.63096875,"end":434.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.14909375,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.46096875,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.13596875,"end":440.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.11409375000005,"end":440.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.27409375,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006,"end":446.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.66159375,"end":449.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.42909375000005,"end":452.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.68534375,"end":459.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.14909375,"end":459.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.28409375,"end":461.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.27534375000005,"end":461.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.86596875000004,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.13096875,"end":468.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":469.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":469.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.52721875000003,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.83096875,"end":469.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.84784375000004,"end":472.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.91534375000003,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.03346875000005,"end":470.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.62409375000004,"end":470.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.48034375000003,"end":473.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.57721875000004,"end":474.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.62346875000003,"end":474.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.80909375000005,"end":478.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.14659375,"end":478.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.42034375000003,"end":484.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.17471875,"end":486.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.24221875,"end":487.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.29659375000006,"end":491.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.59534375000004,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.52346875,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.64971875000003,"end":496.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.34159375,"end":496.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.65346875000006,"end":500.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.91471875,"end":502.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.97346875000005,"end":504.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.85909375000006,"end":515.4778437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.50721875,"end":516.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.23284375,"end":530.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.98596875,"end":531.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.01971875,"end":531.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.0365937500001,"end":531.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.6103437500001,"end":538.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8247187500001,"end":537.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.61784375,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.57534375,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.97596875,"end":541.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.14034375,"end":549.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.0928437499999,"end":558.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.1259687500001,"end":553.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.3784687500001,"end":563.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.4709687500001,"end":559.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.4284687500001,"end":564.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.20346875,"end":570.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.4184687500001,"end":578.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.24034375,"end":582.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.48846875,"end":582.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.26034375,"end":590.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.5503437500001,"end":594.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7397187500001,"end":596.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.33846875,"end":598.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.4309687500001,"end":599.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.2747187500001,"end":622.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.97159375,"end":623.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.1909687500001,"end":625.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.95034375,"end":625.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.93721875,"end":631.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.6284687500001,"end":636.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.58096875,"end":640.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.94346875,"end":640.96034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.671,"end":27.275,"text":"主席請部長好請薛部長委員好部長薛部長我們兩個都是醫生發生這樣的事情真的是很遺憾"},{"start":28.749,"end":47.862,"text":"而且是三個月的時間讓他的小小的生命沒有辦法繼續長大我們看了那個第二期計畫投入了400多億我們政府到底做了什麼那我先問一個問題保姆這一詞是從什麼時候開始講的保姆這個單字是什麼時候開始講的"},{"start":51.909,"end":68.224,"text":"這個我沒有辦法法務部這個詞是從禮記就有了就是西元500年600年就有了這個很早以前就有了他的位階是在老師、慈母第三個位階也就是說其實這個工作是非常重要的那我想問你第一個問題"},{"start":69.925,"end":80.996,"text":"這個流行保姆他的精神鑑定或者是精神報告有沒有啊這個沒有沒有所以我希望以後如果你要成為保姆你的精神或者心智的鑑定要有"},{"start":82.467,"end":83.407,"text":"反社會人格異常（"},{"start":101.972,"end":122.002,"text":"如果說確定要當保姆的話應該要做一天兩天的一個所謂的精神鑑定啊因為那個我覺得這是很需要來做不然一而再再而三發生這樣的事情好沒有關係我們努力看看好不好不然你花了那麼多407億還是沒有進步的話你要去想的問題到底出在哪裡啊"},{"start":123.972,"end":140.667,"text":"第二個問題就是說他為何轉換那麼多保姆從出養一到出養四?他這個問題怎麼來的?可以告訴我嗎?這當然是就是說一開始的時候那是那個家屬自己去找的保姆"},{"start":142.188,"end":168.414,"text":"然後當他這個要出養的時候我的意思是123都沒有問題嗎123的時間都不是很12的時間那如果他們照顧得很好為什麼會換到第4所以我們就針對這一點去做研議就為什麼要這個因為轉到兒虎聯盟之後兒虎聯盟堅持說一定要換保姆這件事情"},{"start":169.174,"end":184.13,"text":"我看到是9月1號的時候就簽約了然後9月25號兒童第一次到保姆,兒童第一次到保姆家訪視他寫了說他有預清"},{"start":186.01,"end":207.371,"text":"於清對我們醫生來講是非常大的事情而且是在臉部在頭部那是不是應該要只要想到這一個話他是不是應該要做全身的一個照相以後要有這樣子一個insight好不好所以這部分就是我剛剛在口頭報告裡面有提到的我們必須要把check in list他1號簽約的25號就有於清了對不對"},{"start":209.099,"end":232.499,"text":"然後26號就社會局就收案反思完成然後到23號再過一個月的時候他說叫安靜叫安靜如果就我的理解來講如果如果是叫安靜的話是不是就是比較澎湃易碎的啊這個是不是已經是高危險群的這個如果就醫生來看的話也就是已經是高度懷疑他被虐待嗎不是嗎"},{"start":235.177,"end":260.992,"text":"當然這個社工的專業裡面也許沒有辦法去判斷這一個那我到底他到底有沒有看到我是覺得不太可能加上那個第11月的話是牙齒掉這件事情他有提出來那是被他打到牙齒沒有掉下來還是他看到他的牙齒掉下來我是覺得這個暴力跟非暴力的因素這個時候就可以去知道了那已經是死前一個月的事情"},{"start":261.732,"end":266.654,"text":"這目前檢調正在調查到底他是不是有去看事實上有沒有去看那怎麼樣看這是檢調現在調查但是"},{"start":286.423,"end":287.364,"text":"為何事發三個月後才有檢討機制?"},{"start":315.338,"end":337.932,"text":"其實發言委員,臺北市、新北市的檢討報告都還沒來。那依照我們的這個規定的話,它必須是這個通報之後,縣市政府通報之後的話,在10天內就要召開這個檢討報告。檢討報告來在開完之後兩個禮拜就要...是嗎?是地方政府的錯嗎?"},{"start":341.482,"end":344.286,"text":"所以到底是哪一個環節是衛福部還是縣市政府還是兒福聯盟這三個"},{"start":358.641,"end":384.375,"text":"先是政府沒有做這個檢討報告這是確定的到現在為止也都報告還沒出來那第三個問題是我們按照這樣的一個問題呈現的話你的訪視制度有沒有馬上要改善還是說你有沒有你心裡面的構想對啊這個部分的話當然對於一些比較特殊的個案的話那訪視的制度必須要改善訪視頻率以及現在參與訪視的有哪些專業人員"},{"start":387.377,"end":415.598,"text":"目前的話主要還是社工的人員只有社工嗎?對現在專責醫師制度不是也有嗎?看他安置在什麼樣的現在有專責醫師以後只有社工跟護理人員不用訪視嗎?護理人員那個是進入到這個專責醫師的時候那是多久一次?會試是多久一次?基本上一個月然後醫生是半年一次?"},{"start":416.378,"end":439.761,"text":"對,但是一個月一次是說一定要把小孩子帶到舟車廊如果因為舟車廊對,能不能增加視訊的?當然是可以因為3歲以下兒童應該沒有所謂的裸體圈嘛,就是就把它全部打開,然後讓醫護人員看一下,可不可以?當然可以是,因為我覺得這個,如果有這一項的話,應該這件事情就不會發生了"},{"start":442.335,"end":472.021,"text":"我們上次有問過署長齁,進捐署長嗎?對,我也問你說那個匯捐那邊所以我也問你說社工目前的比例是多少人口?社工的比例我們現在常常在講醫生服務的人口比是700多比一二社工呢?因為社工齁,社工他有分好幾個這種不同的業務的區域那如果是按照現在的,你知道的社工平均是1比35"},{"start":472.657,"end":501.792,"text":"社福中心是20萬人會設一個我是覺得明顯不夠啊我是覺得明顯不夠嘛 對不對如果是20萬人才一個社福中心裡面有多少個社工因為我們總覺得社工不夠社工的待遇不好"},{"start":506.384,"end":515.181,"text":"整體性的問題當然要改善他的服務內容以及他的待遇等等這些都是我們要努力的方向"},{"start":517.313,"end":538.245,"text":"那我們在講到他的那個所謂的檢討措施裡面有一個就是說你們要加強訪視重點跟訪視員的敏感度那敏感度你很會講那什麼叫做敏感度你可以告訴我嗎就如同剛剛委員提到的他看到了一個包這個就要依視到那你要怎麼考試"},{"start":540.199,"end":561.925,"text":"這不是考試的問題,而是...對啊,所以就是因為你沒有考試,你沒有增加變成一個它的勾肌或者是說稽查它的重點,它就不會有敏感度,永遠都不會有對,所以這部分就是我們未來在努力的方向,也就是它看到什麼東西,然後它就必須要意識到...所以那個就是敏感度,所以你既然知道你就要把它列入你要訓練的一個重點,不是嗎?對,對"},{"start":570.253,"end":598.314,"text":"因為剛剛那個我們的經費委員一直在講都是地方政府的錯所以我就不知道該怎麼讓你說剛剛我的口頭報告裡面其實對中央政府應該負的責任我也都提到了好 那我們剛剛講到死亡率的問題就是我們現在國人的小朋友的話大概還是在千分之2.8還是千分之4點多 對不對那我們原住民的話是一倍喔那我們一倍的地方"},{"start":600.306,"end":625.561,"text":"我們又是比較交通弱勢然後醫療資源也比較缺乏所以在以後在建立裝折制度的時候或者說仿試的時候要多鎖一些變革或者說權宜也就是說讓他們更方便讓照顧的人或者說被評估的人或者是這些社工不要疲於奔命、舟車勞頓因為每一個村莊有的時候都是一兩個小時以上的距離好不好因為我們的死亡率高一倍"},{"start":626.957,"end":626.977,"text":"盧縣一"}]}},{"id":"149965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab63e3e4b1792e8b31b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a69ddf20834a5201b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:24:10 - 10:35:46","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":696,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:35:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:24:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時24分）謝謝主席。有請黃天牧主委還有央行副總裁。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請主委、央行副總裁。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：主委、副總裁早安。今天我們針對ETF、這個熱賣的高股息產品來跟主委及副總裁做討論。請教副總裁，從1993年世界第一支ETF上市以後，一直到現在2024年，現在大家最幸運的密碼是00940、00939，三個人裡頭就有一個人在買ETF。我在這裡要跟主委討論一下，ETF的熱烈買氣除了與政策開放的程度有關外，也跟現今臺股的市場狀況有一個相關性，你認同嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，委員，我覺得您這個推論相當專業，因為最近臺股漲得比較多，連動臺股的ETF，大家覺得可能未來獲利可期，可能是有這種期待。"],["賴委員惠員：其實在坊間有特別提到一點，這一次臺股破了2萬點，幕後有兩大真正主因，一個是台積電的漲幅，一個是ETF的投入，你認為這樣的分析有沒有道理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：的確在過去的臺股中，台積電不論市值跟價來講，它都有一個比較主要的影響力，這是沒有錯的。"],["賴委員惠員：對，那ETF呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，ETF就不太能夠這樣推論，為什麼？因為ETF的交易量才占每天臺股交易量的1%，它投資臺股的才占2.38%。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，那為什麼三個人裡頭就有一個人有買ETF呢？現在的市場性存在的就是這樣一個問題。主委，我想請教你，你知道ETF裡頭有多少股息是怎麼算出來的嗎？金管會有沒有去算這些問題？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，這就是我們在今年年初對於投信以平準金來配息，中間有些地方不透明或是覺得不太合理的地方，我們要求訂一個規範，所以這部分就是要讓投資人……"],["賴委員惠員：所以金管會有沒有去分析這個配息的成分比呢？你已經覺得不對了嘛！那你有沒有……"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是不對，而是他不能拿投資人的錢配給投資人自己，然後說這是你的配息，這個不好。"],["賴委員惠員：是，主委，你已經講出一個重點，就是他拿投資人的錢、配息，但是是用我自己的錢，然後還收了我的管理費，是不是這個樣子呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您指教得對。"],["賴委員惠員：在廣告裡頭，你看他們說月月配、季季配，收多少、配多少，拿到自己的錢叫做配息嗎？有沒有這回事？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為他還是有一些是他的成分股的股利或是債券的息，只是中間是不是有自己的錢在裡面？我覺得這個要讓投資人清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你有沒有去讓投資人清楚這些問題呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，報告委員，我們在報告中有，我們的報告第7頁、第8頁就有講到我們對於收益平準金分配的原則，還有配息的審查跟資訊的揭露，都有在做處理。"],["賴委員惠員：如果大家有注意到這些問題，今天就不會每一個委員都對你提出建議。公開資訊觀測站，消費者誰會看？每一個委員都告訴金管會，要要求所有業者的廣告說清楚。我們也知道ETF商品的利得其實就是來自於三個面向──資本利得、平準金及真正收到的股息，可是問題就是這些業者還是用我的錢在分配我的股息，你要正視這些問題！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，所以我們在今年年初有訂了收益平準金的分配原則，而且將來也會透過日常監理或是檢查，瞭解這些平準金分配原則是不是有被忠實的執行。"],["賴委員惠員：請主委看這一頁資料，我想你心裡非常清楚，是不是有真正的為投資人做到平衡的保護。","你怎麼去管廣告？ETF熱賣是不是因為廣告的手法特別吸睛，所以讓很多人解除定存，雖然這個是跟央行的關係，跟金管會的行政權責沒有關係，可是我要特別提醒你，有沒有去管廣告手法？這個廣告手法提到，證券商喊卡又一家，600億、500億喊得讓每一個人都覺得，如果沒有在現在的投資市場裡頭買00940、00939，這樣很丟臉、沒有跟上時代的潮流，怎麼辦呢？金管會對這些投信、投顧業者銷售ETF的廣告有什麼具體的法規？有沒有具體的法規？"],["黃主任委員天牧：以往投信業者的商品廣告都要送到公會去審，前年開始也針對網紅提請他們注意，但是從這幾波看起來，因為有的網紅不是投信直接跟他簽約，而是透過行銷公司跟他簽約，網紅背後可能是跟投信有關係。可是在宣導的時候他沒有說他跟投信有關係，所以有一種置入性行銷的味道，比方他拿這個配息跟定存比，這些手法都是不太妥當的。"],["賴委員惠員：你已經看到不太妥當了。針對業者有沒有違反自律規範、你們怎麼樣去處分，會後請提供資料給我。","再來我想請教主委，在所有的公司裡頭，有沒有哪一家公司或有哪些公司是每一季配股息的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道有幾家公司，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：哪幾家？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我會後跟您報告。因為我不要替這幾家公司，不論是……"],["賴委員惠員：每一季配股息的就只有台積電，你看……"],["黃主任委員天牧：你是說台積電，我以為是投信公司，不好意思。"],["賴委員惠員：不是投信公司。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我以為是ETF。"],["賴委員惠員：你不能站在這個地方一直幫投信公司打廣告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：台積電也沒有月配息。"],["賴委員惠員：對，我現在講的是公司，問哪一家公司。針對業者配息的問題，ETF會不會變成一個龐氏騙局？你有沒有想過這樣的問題？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是為什麼我們對於收益平準金的內涵是什麼、如何操作、如何分配一定要弄清楚，不要讓投資人被誤導，這是我們的重點。"],["賴委員惠員：對，這個就是大家的社會責任。你給我的8%可能有一半是我的錢，所以必須把配息的比例講得更清楚一點，甚至要做更多的約束、更多的宣傳，包括業者配息的問題、廣告的問題及網路行銷。你的報告寫得很好，可是問題在於執行面有沒有真正的執行、有沒有真正的落實，這是一個非常嚴肅的問題。謝謝主委。","接著請央行副總裁。"],["主席：請副總裁。"],["賴委員惠員：之前00940掀起空前的搶購熱潮，總裁特別示警大家要小心羊群效應，為什麼會這樣講呢？副總裁。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：因為過去臺灣的金融市場有偶爾會出現大家一窩蜂的現象，所以楊總裁提出……"],["賴委員惠員：所以他在警告大家，對不對？他在警告這些投資人、這一些羊千萬要小心，如果在這一塊草坪吃不到草了，千萬不要往最後有狼群的草坪前進，是不是這樣？你們的意思大概就是這樣，是不是？我看起來是，可是你有沒有想到，央行會不會就是這一群羊的領頭羊呢？為什麼？因為實質的總薪資一直在下跌，定存利率也趕不上通膨，我的選區裡頭有很多退休的老人，他們的利息太薄了！央行有沒有想到就是用什麼樣的方法，可以去改善實質的負利率呢？副總裁，你怎麼看呢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：維持金融穩定是央行的職責，所以您剛才講的央行是帶頭的羊，我覺得那是有一點點問題的說法。"],["賴委員惠員：這個是不對的？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：金融穩定是我們的職責，然後我們也……"],["賴委員惠員：對，但你有沒有穩定？因為利息一直都這麼低，你沒有提升利息，所以你看每一個人存了定存的利息其實都敵不過通膨……"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這是一個長期的問題，包括資金過多造成整個社會……這是一個長期的問題。"],["賴委員惠員：資金過多是好事啊！央行就是要分配，問題是你怎麼分配呢？所以你不認同我說你是領頭羊，領頭羊通常就是最棒的，可是我們要做實質上最好的。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：實質利率或者低薪的問題都是我們長期關注的問題，我們在擬定貨幣政策的時候也會考慮到這些問題的存在。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝副總裁，答非所問。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員的質詢。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。羅明才委員質詢後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.51596875,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.148468750000001,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.771593750000001,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.560343750000001,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.66534375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.14596875,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.01034375,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.90034375,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.832218750000003,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.671593750000003,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.34159375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.674718750000004,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.47409375,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.617218750000006,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.852843750000005,"end":60.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.98346875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.23159375,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.18909375,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.32221875,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.46471875,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.81034375,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.50971875,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.80909375,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.50471875000001,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.13596875,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.30034375000001,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.11846875,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.15221875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.32096875,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.37159375,"end":126.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.38846875,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.81284375000001,"end":132.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.70221875000001,"end":135.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.84096875,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.10221875000002,"end":147.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.47534375,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.17096875000001,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.76096875000002,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.81909375,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.30846875,"end":172.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.46846875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.82596875000002,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.15284375000002,"end":193.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.43971875000003,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.90784375,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.65846875000003,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.98721875,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.07971875,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.82596875000002,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.84284375000001,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.27534375000002,"end":222.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.84846875000002,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.34846875000002,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.74471875,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.77721875,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.34596875000003,"end":259.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.46721875000003,"end":267.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.88784375,"end":279.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.54846875000004,"end":280.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.38784375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.69971875000005,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.19221875,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.99721875,"end":298.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.68471875,"end":299.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.56221875,"end":302.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.24096875000004,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.28971875,"end":315.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.14596875,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.93784375,"end":331.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.87784375,"end":334.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.89846875,"end":342.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.47534375000004,"end":355.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.12721875,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.15659375,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.19846875,"end":359.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.00846875,"end":360.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.05909375000005,"end":360.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.07596875,"end":360.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.63221875000005,"end":365.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.44221875000005,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.11284375,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.42034375000003,"end":377.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.92971875,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.36409375000005,"end":384.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.62909375000004,"end":389.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.48909375000005,"end":394.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.02409375,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.28096875,"end":412.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.50659375000004,"end":424.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.45409375,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.77784375000005,"end":434.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.59596875000005,"end":441.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.66221875,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.39596875,"end":446.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.83034375000005,"end":452.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.47909375,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.74909375000004,"end":457.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.28846875000005,"end":459.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.76096875,"end":463.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.70971875000004,"end":468.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.55346875000004,"end":464.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.71284375000005,"end":471.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.84346875000006,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.79659375000006,"end":485.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.22909375,"end":498.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.26534375000006,"end":506.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.63096875,"end":513.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3472187500001,"end":518.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.8359687500001,"end":537.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.58409375,"end":542.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.2709687500001,"end":553.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.6884687500001,"end":545.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.91909375,"end":561.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.8203437500001,"end":569.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.5959687500001,"end":573.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.6459687500001,"end":574.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.3547187500001,"end":574.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.43909375,"end":574.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.60784375,"end":575.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.02971875,"end":592.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.15346875,"end":594.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.80284375,"end":596.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.35534375,"end":598.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.8403437500001,"end":605.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.7040937500001,"end":616.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.62659375,"end":619.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.73159375,"end":631.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.4934687500001,"end":633.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.48471875,"end":633.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.4465937500001,"end":635.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.93159375,"end":640.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.85909375,"end":648.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.2165937500001,"end":648.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.25034375,"end":648.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.4697187500001,"end":649.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.39784375,"end":662.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.0547187500001,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.6397187500002,"end":681.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.18596875,"end":686.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.07971875,"end":688.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.61534375,"end":696.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.0659687500001,"end":695.1965937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.47,"end":6.156,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃天牧主委還有我們央行副總裁"},{"start":12.819,"end":35.498,"text":"是委員長是主委副總裁早安我想今天我們針對的ETF這一個熱賣高股息的一個產品來跟那個主委跟副總裁做一個討論在這裡請教就是說我們總裁我們從1993年就是世界第一支ETF上市了以後"},{"start":35.698,"end":35.979,"text":"主席蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":53.522,"end":65.035,"text":"我們的主委討論一下ETF的一個熱烈除了政策開放的程度有關那也跟現今的台股的市場的狀況有一個相關性你認同嗎"},{"start":66.42,"end":87.529,"text":"委員您這個推論我覺得是相當專業因為最近台股漲得比較多所以大家覺得聯動台股的ETF可能未來獲利可期可能有這種期待獲利可期那其實在緩間上有特別提到了一點就是說這次台股破了2萬點"},{"start":88.849,"end":113.752,"text":"幕後有真正的兩大主因一個是台積電的一個漲幅一個就是ETF的一個這個投入那你認為這樣子的一個分析有沒有道理的確台積電在過去台股中不論市值跟價來講它有一個比較主要的一個影響力這是沒有錯的對那ETF呢"},{"start":115.265,"end":117.106,"text":"那為什麼會有三個人裡頭就有一個人其實是有買ETF的呢?"},{"start":133.011,"end":146.468,"text":"現在的市場性存在的就是這樣的一個問題主委我想請教你一下就是我們的ETF裡頭你知道有多少股息是怎麼算出來的我們就是金管會有沒有去算這些問題"},{"start":147.867,"end":166.815,"text":"委員這就是我們在今年年初對於投信的評準金來配息中間有些地方不透明或是覺得不太合理的地方我們要求訂規範所以這個部分就是要讓投資人所以居委會有沒有去分配就是分析這個配息的這個成分比呢"},{"start":168.304,"end":190.669,"text":"你已經覺得不對了嘛不是不對而是說你不能拿投資人的錢然後配給自己說這是你的配息這個不好是我想主委你已經講出了一個重點你拿投資人的錢然後就是配息再次用我自己的錢然後你還收了我的管理費是不是這個樣子呢"},{"start":192.619,"end":217.708,"text":"那你的廣告廣告裡頭你看他們講了說業業配、記記配收多少、配多少拿了自己的錢叫做配息嗎?有沒有這個?不知道委員這個話也因為他還是有一些是他的成分股的股利或是債券的息只是說中間是不是有自己的錢在裡面我覺得這個要讓投資人清楚"},{"start":218.348,"end":235.584,"text":"所以你有沒有就是去讓投資人清楚這些問題呢有 報告員我們在報告中有我們報告中第8頁就有講到第7、第8都有講到我們對於收益評選金的分配的這些原則還有配息的審查跟資訊的揭露都有在做處理"},{"start":236.385,"end":248.795,"text":"可是如果大家有去注意到這些的問題的時候我想今天我們大家就不會每一個委員跟你做的一個建議都是真正的提出了一個公開資訊觀測站這個消費者誰會看"},{"start":252.418,"end":280.351,"text":"我們每一個委員都是告訴你說金管會你要要求就是所有的業者的廣告要收清楚啊那我們也知道說ETF的商品的一個利得它其實就是來自於三個面向嘛我的資本利得我的評準金我的真正收到的一個股息可是問題就是說我這些還是你們還是這些業者還是用我的錢在分配我的股息啊"},{"start":281.451,"end":302.137,"text":"那你要正視這些問題啊有 所以我們有在今年年初有訂了收益評準金的分配原則而且將來也會透過日常監理或是說檢查瞭解這些評準金分配原則是不是有被忠實的執行我想那個主委你看齁我這一頁的一個那個"},{"start":303.738,"end":304.76,"text":"再下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":317.199,"end":334.355,"text":"就是說你的廣告怎麼去管ETF的熱賣是不是因為廣告的手法他特別的吸金所以就是說很多人他已經解除定存了這個是跟央行的一個關係跟金融這個就是我們金管會其實在"},{"start":335.095,"end":355.234,"text":"行政的一個前者裡頭是沒有關係的可是我要特別提醒你有沒有去管這個廣告手法這個廣告手法你看講了就是鄭建山喊咔又一家這個600億500億喊的每一個人就覺得說哇我如果在現在的一個投資的一個市場裡頭我沒有去買0000"},{"start":361.29,"end":378.783,"text":"940對你看你都比我記得還清楚00939對不對這樣很漏氣了沒有跟上時代的潮流那怎麼辦呢你儘管會對這些投信的投顧業者的一個銷售的ETF的一個廣告有什麼具體的法規有沒有具體的法規"},{"start":379.423,"end":394.102,"text":"其實我們以往對於投信業者在商品的廣告都要送到工會去審的那前年開始也針對網紅提請他注意但是這幾波看起來因為網紅有的不是投信直接跟他簽約透過行銷公司跟他簽約"},{"start":395.183,"end":411.865,"text":"所以網紅其實他後面可能是跟投信有關係可是在做宣導的時候他沒有說他是跟投信有關係所以有一種置入性行銷的味道那這些可能他在手法上比方說他拿這個配息跟跟定存比那這些都是不太妥當的"},{"start":413.327,"end":440.945,"text":"主委你已經看到了不太妥當了這個其實業者有沒有違反那個自立的一個規範那你們怎麼樣去處分我想就是說會後請你提供給我資料那再來我想再請教就是主委就是說在我們所有的公司裡頭有沒有哪一家公司還是有哪些公司就是說他是每一季配股息的"},{"start":443.334,"end":468.601,"text":"呃 我知道有幾家公司但是哪幾家我好像不需要我會後跟您報告因為我不用替這幾家公司不論是我跟你講齁 主委就是每一季配股息的就只有台積電那你是說台積電我以為是投信公司不好意思不是投信公司你已經不能站在這個地方一直幫投信公司打廣告了"},{"start":470.199,"end":485.074,"text":"這個我們應該是對我現在講的是公司哪一家公司所以我就想說針對業者的配息的一個問題ETF會不會變成了一個龐氏的騙局你有沒有想過這樣的一個問題"},{"start":487.287,"end":506.227,"text":"其實這也是為什麼我們對於收益評準金它的內涵是什麼它如何去操作如何分配一定要弄清楚不要讓投資人被誤導這是我們的重點對這個就是我們大家的一個社會責任嘛對不對所以我在想說你給我的8%可能有一半是我的錢啊"},{"start":507.699,"end":536.338,"text":"是我的錢啊所以你這個我想配息你必須要把配息的一個比例講得更清楚一點那你甚至要做更多的一個約束更多的一個宣傳甚至就是說針對業者他的配息的問題還有他的廣告的一個問題不管是在網路上的一個行銷剛才我看你的報告裡頭你寫得很好可是問題就是說在執行面有沒有真正的執行有沒有真正的落實這是一個"},{"start":538.139,"end":560.152,"text":"嚴肅的一個問題謝謝主委那接著我請那個央行總裁就是副總裁我想就是說就是在之前就是你針對00940掀起了空前的一個搶購的熱潮這個總裁特別就是示警大家要小心陽晴效應為什麼會這樣子講來副總裁"},{"start":564.861,"end":591.568,"text":"我想楊總裁可能看到就是說因為過去的臺灣的金融市場偶爾會出現大家一窩蜂的現象他提出只是這樣子的所以你在警告大家嘛 對不對你在警告這些投資業的這些羊群就是說你們千萬要小心這一塊草坪如果你吃不到草了你千萬不要往就是有狼群最後的這個草坪前進是不是這樣子"},{"start":593.188,"end":615.576,"text":"大概你們的意思就是這樣子嘛是不是我看起來是是的可是你有沒有想到央行會不會就是這一群領頭羊呢這一群羊群的領頭羊呢為什麼因為事實上就是說實質的總薪資一直在下跌定存利率也趕不上通盤"},{"start":616.696,"end":632.959,"text":"我的選區裡頭太多退休的老人他們的利息太薄了那央行有沒有想到就是用什麼樣的一個方法然後可以去改善就是實質的負利率呢副總裁你怎麼看勒"},{"start":633.51,"end":659.194,"text":"那個報告委員維持金融穩定是央行的職責所以您剛才講那個央行是帶頭那個羊我覺得那是那是有一點點問題的說法這個是不對的金融穩定是我們的職責對然後那個我們也那你有沒有穩定啊因為你利息一直都你的利息就是一直這麼低啊你沒有提升你的利息啊所以你看啊每一個人這是一個長期的問題包括我們的資金過"},{"start":663.135,"end":664.937,"text":"通常就是最棒的可是我們要做一個實質上的一個最好的"},{"start":682.196,"end":691.223,"text":"我想那個實質利率或者是低薪的問題也都是我們長期在關注的問題我想我們在貨幣政策的時候也會考慮到這些問題的存在好 謝謝副總裁好 謝謝待會有諮詢"}]}},{"id":"149964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a3a3f561913138d8e25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a615f377d25edfc7d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:10:47 - 10:28:32","影片長度":"00:17:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1065,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:28:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:10:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時10分）主席、各位委員同事、各位官員還有各位媒體朋友，大家早安，大家好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：早安。這段話是2020年蔡總統宣布第二期社安網所說的，就職典禮的發言稿，他提到我們要讓第一線的社工能量提升，改善他們的工作環境，讓社工能夠深入最基層，把過去社會安全網沒有接住的人都找回來，我們也不應該把責任全部推給醫療部門、個別法官，司法和行政部門應該要檢討制度。結果，我們很遺憾地發現，到今天過了4年，我們的社工能量還是沒有提升，到處缺社工，結果這件事事發後，大家是獵巫啊！醫師啊、社工師啊等等。剛剛部長有增加了非常多的篇幅，本席也非常感動，但是昨天列出來的檢討報告居然800字出現了11次地方，看到的時候真的很難過，但剛才部長已經跟全國民眾還有剴剴的家屬道歉了，我在這邊有一個小小的提議，因為我也身為三個小孩的媽媽，不知道部長如果在沒有媒體關注的狀況下，你是否願意親自跟這位小男童的家屬道歉並且安慰他，還有提供後續的安置，還有你後續的作法呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，謝謝部長今天願意道歉，因為現在網路上已經有幾萬人連署，馬上就破幾萬連署虐童致死，可見人民對這件事有多麼生氣，全國各地都有民眾主動要送花跟剴剴致哀，所以我們今天委員會召開最重要的意義就是我們應該要一起協助部長把這個社會安全網補起來，因為您才是把每一絲、每一絲的線補起來的人，我們醫生、社工單位、所有的地方政府都是這個網的一條線而已啊！您才是最重要的角色。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：您在14號說我們要同步制定托育專法，盼本會期能送入立法院，但這個會期剩下2個月，我想問您在這個會期真的可以送入立法院嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：比較精確來講應該是送到行政院，因為經過專家會議討論之後，由我們的法規會再考慮法律的文字，最後定案了才送行政院，所以應該這個會期之內我們會把它送到……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們的人工生殖法已經搞2年了，還沒完成，你現在說要做這個托育專法，我不知道是不是就你法律專業的立場有什麼特別的考量。我們現在的兒權法已經包含托嬰中心、育兒機構還有保母的規範都在裡面了，提出專法的意思是說你要把現在相關的條文、子法全部刪掉，然後另立一個托育專法，這是一個大工程，但我們的洞現在都還沒補好，週末又有新的案件發生耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：新案件部分，如果委員詢問我們再回答。這個部分就托育專法跟兒權法的修正，我們已經討論2年了，所以已經差不多快要收尾。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你很有信心在這個會期送出？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，能夠把它送到行政院去做審查。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們會緊盯您的進度。另外，我也獲得本黨二十幾位委員共同連署，我們要即刻提出兒少權法修正草案，還有保母定期評鑑制度化，本席在這邊希望衛福部可以在1個月內提出相關的研究報告、預計實施的辦法，以及你們對於托育專法大概的修法方向和預計進度。"],["薛部長瑞元：兒少權法這次修正很重要的是要符合CRC兒權公約的部分，對於托育，尤其是像保母還有托育機構管理的部分，如果仍然放在兒權法裡面可能會非常膨脹，變成整個兒權法的重點都會被壓縮到。"],["陳委員菁徽：我想關心這件事的大眾還有委員真的非常多，所以我們一定會密切在這個會期觀察大家的進度，好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，109年衛福部曾經提出一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫，當時連行政院院長都說我們5歲以下兒童死亡率的數字讓他感到非常丟臉，他自己公開在媒體上承認我們跟其他OECD國家比起來，別人是1.7%、2.4%，我們是4.7%、4.6%。你提出這個兒童醫療照護計畫時幫自己定了KPI，你希望110年、111年、112年、113年是逐年下降，結果我們發現實際的數據在110年、111年是4.8%、5.1%，你的這個照護計畫是出了什麼事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這有兩個部分，像委員這一張slide顯示的右下方那邊，新生兒的死亡率有兩種算法，一種是把22週以下的也算進來，所以現在講的4.8%、5.1%是包括在裡面的，但如果把這部分扣掉就會稍微減少一點，不過我們國內還是……"],["陳委員菁徽：但還是沒有達到你的KPI啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們有檢討這個部分，第一個，我們已經在著手所謂的新生兒及嬰兒的死因回溯計畫，我們想要找出可避免的死亡原因。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們今天討論到的這個案例，你看上面寫期待降低死亡率，減少兒童可預防、可避免的死亡，我們這個案例算不算你提到的可預防、可避免的死亡？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，這個是。"],["陳委員菁徽：深切檢討？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡面有一部分叫幼兒專責醫師，所以如果這個小孩子有被納入幼兒專責醫師的話，可能就可以多一個機會阻止死亡機率的發生。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們來看表格，你把其他的策略目標分成兒童重難罕症疾病、培訓兒童重症運送專業團隊、未滿3歲之兒童有專責醫師的照護、推展脆弱家庭育兒指導服務，你列了這四項，我們看到實際有達到的KPI就是未滿3歲之兒童有專責醫師的照護，其他要建立重難罕症疾病的平臺在113年想要18個，實際只有8個；培訓兒童重症運送專業團隊，113年想要4個，實際只有3個。你會把自己的KPI設成30%表示你深深地發現醫療資源有限、醫療資源不均，這個全國覆蓋率你自己也知道資源配置不太合理，你希望這些脆家的育兒都可以有專責醫師，那你為什麼要把第三項跟第四項分開？你應該是推展脆弱家庭育兒指導服務加上專責醫師的照護，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在這個幼兒專責醫師的照護，我們希望每一位小孩子都有這樣的專責醫師，不管他的背景是什麼，所以我們設定的KPI 30%實際上已經超過了。但是脆家的部分是在裡面的另外一小塊，因為這一些可能會缺乏所謂的家屬參與，所以這個部分要特別去做處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒錯，我們看這個表，部長都知道了。一個一般的幼兒要加入專責醫師，家長要先上網查詢，還要再帶手冊去填寫家長同意書來媒合，基本上可以做到這件事情的家長就是不會在我們社會安全網之外，所以我們來看你的表，你說109年就開始把社政還有衛政拉在一起，結果你自己剛剛也在口頭報告承認宣導不力，對不對？社會局跟衛生局都對這件事情不太清楚，雖然你說109年有做，可是你根本沒有制度化，也沒有系統化，我去問基層的社工、兒科醫師，他們都說這半年來才知道，而且經過這個新聞，他們的壓力超大，因為每個案主都去問他們說我的專責醫師呢？你都還沒幫我找專責醫師！所以如果沒有制度化跟系統化，而只有宣導，這件事情我們怎麼把脆家的人納進來？我覺得這個立意非常好，因為兒科醫師現在已經不夠了、全國都已經不夠了，可是我們不是應該要先從接不住的人開始注意到他們一定要被照顧到嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實我們算過，如果一位兒科醫師平均有200個個案，事實上我們大概只需要3,000名兒科醫師。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我們現在3,777位兒科醫師。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以人數是夠的。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我們的城鄉分布非常不均喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以在兒科醫師比較缺乏的地方，我們會交給衛生所，由衛生所的醫師處理，不論他是哪一個專科都可以來做這件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我等一下跟你說基層醫師在反映什麼。我們看一下你自己畫的圖，現在這個圖的問題出在哪裡？你只有把一般幼童、一般新生兒還有高風險孕產婦所生的新生兒列到幼兒專責醫師，最後你發現脆家的因子還是醫生自己要發現或是衛生局自己要發現，而不是從源頭就把他們找出來嘛！所以我們這個案例就從這個破洞掉下來啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這一次我們深刻檢討後，這一點一定是未來要去改善的。"],["陳委員菁徽：就是這個圖，我幫你畫好了。"],["薛部長瑞元：社政跟衛政之間的聯繫是不夠的。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但你要把它制度化。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：比如說通報以後多久以內、誰要去訪查等等，包括兒科醫師要怎麼訪查嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：兒科醫師要做什麼，這些SOP是有的，現在只是社政單位沒有把這一個個案的名冊交給衛生單位。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們仔細的比較了一下，15號、上個禮拜五你跟雙北市政府開完共識會議，還有你給我們衛環委員會的書面報告，你說要指定專責醫師，但這二個族群居然有一點小小的落差，你剛才說你要落實社政跟衛政，而你跟雙北的共識會議是說政府安置之3歲以下兒童，結果你給我們的報告範圍更大，脆弱家庭也把它納入了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一個部分講的是不需要家長的同意書，因為他的家屬已經是支持系統薄弱，你還要找他的家長的話，恐怕會有一點困難。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說，政府安置的不用家長同意書，但很多脆弱家庭找不到家長，你不把它列進來喔？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以就是直接列進來，不必經過他的同意了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。我這邊也要反映一下基層的聲音，我很多同學是小兒科醫生，他們說，第一，本來一般幼兒1年是500點，你把它調到1,000點，很好！可是現在發生了這麼重大的事件，這些脆家的小孩都要交給他們照顧，他們當然只是其中、裡面的一條線，所以點數的部分不用提升嗎？不用比一般兒童更多嗎？不是應該要3倍、5倍嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：脆家的部分是1,500，是比那個高。委員，這個事情是這樣子的，第一個，我們把脆家的兒童放進來，只是要讓他被identify出來，他手上有這樣一個小孩子，如果沒有被identify出來，這些小孩子到他的診所去看病的時候，沒有被他發現這可能是兒虐的話，畢竟醫師本來就是所謂的義務通報人員，他還是有一定的責任啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：他如果是被指定的話，他還要加上一年訪視兩次。"],["薛部長瑞元：他有個案管理師啊！而且並不是每一個案子都需要去做家訪，他可以通知他把小孩子帶到他的診所去。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望您還是可以關懷這些基層醫師，因為他們願意納入你的分級醫療，現在就是看您是不是考慮也把大型的醫療機構納入？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前已經要把他們納入了。"],["陳委員菁徽：很好，因為對他們來說，這也是多餘的行政負擔，因為他們在訪視等等之後，還是要提交報告。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前參與這個計畫的，醫院的部分是118家，然後基層的是916家；其中醫師的部分，醫院的醫師有395位，基層是1,481位，所以醫院的部分也有。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於這些特殊家庭的點數，我們之後再來講。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛口頭報告時也有花很多篇幅去討論我們的保母平臺，這個是你們的保母平臺，也請你們有空的時候自己用用看，如果我是一個家長，我要看看目前我找的這個保母到底是合法還是違法，好，我們從左邊進去，但出現的這些資訊並不是很統一，有人放照片，有人不放照片，但出現的資料代表我今天搜尋到的保母是合法保母；另外，我今天想要知道我這個保母是不是違法，結果居然是連到「違反兒少法專區」，叫我們自己慢慢撈，我在撈的時候嚇死了，只要是有做過未成年犯罪、性侵、性行為等等，全部都列在那裡面，全部都跟保母混在一起。現在家長最關心的是什麼？家長最關心的是我這個保母有沒有過一些負評等等的，而你就是把它跟這些「違反兒少法專區」全部混在一起，這根本不是家長想看的資訊啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這一個部分依法律規定是我們必須要公告的項目。至於委員提到對於保母相關搜尋的平臺，這我們會來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，而且你也應該把它自己獨立成為一項啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是要分開啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我希望今天大家從各個層面來努力，可以把這個網子再補得更好一點，這也是我最後想要提出來的建議，好嗎？謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：建議應該不會越來越大洞，應該是越來越完密。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為這件事情，所以我們今天許多委員都會提出各種建議。好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。等一下盧縣一委員質詢結束，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請盧縣一委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.734718750000001,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.82659375,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.750343750000003,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.78284375,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.17909375,"end":24.347843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.887843750000002,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.680968750000005,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.86596875,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.283468750000004,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.14721875000001,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.89784375,"end":69.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.93971875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.01534375,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.59221875,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.63846875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.94971875,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.65409375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.45096875,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.90221875,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.13409375,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.17596875000001,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.23471875000001,"end":115.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.31659375000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.70034375,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.40909375000001,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.33596875,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.87096875,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.25409375,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.51534375,"end":141.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.98721875,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.90659375,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.69284375,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.88971875000001,"end":175.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.22721875000002,"end":177.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":178.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.65284375000002,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.57221875000002,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.91971875000002,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.92721875,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.54659375000003,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.05159375000002,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.16971875000002,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.98346875000001,"end":253.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.99971875000003,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.62346875000003,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.10846875000004,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.95721875000004,"end":284.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.84721875,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.80846875000003,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.83034375,"end":319.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.02346875,"end":318.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.91784375000003,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.33971875000003,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.52534375000005,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.17846875000004,"end":325.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.80284375,"end":328.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.48596875000004,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.88721875000005,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.06846875,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.34659375,"end":357.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.08471875000004,"end":358.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.53159375,"end":361.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.94909375000003,"end":363.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.41721875,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.61784375,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.60846875000004,"end":383.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.98784375,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.92409375,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.01534375,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.91596875000005,"end":413.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.07596875,"end":435.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.87721875000005,"end":417.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.83221875000004,"end":450.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.80034375,"end":451.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.94784375,"end":451.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.48784375,"end":452.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.63534375,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.19221875000005,"end":454.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.62659375000004,"end":472.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.62534375,"end":462.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.77596875,"end":471.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.77159375,"end":472.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.98659375000005,"end":473.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.29034375000003,"end":474.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.58534375000005,"end":502.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.34909375,"end":504.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.40784375000004,"end":524.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7590937500001,"end":537.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5078437500001,"end":546.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.1184687500001,"end":562.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.6772187500001,"end":574.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.47284375,"end":576.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.57409375,"end":574.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.9365937499999,"end":594.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0222187500001,"end":600.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.13534375,"end":601.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.9622187500001,"end":603.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.86909375,"end":640.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.24721875,"end":644.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.5378437500001,"end":650.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.7309687500001,"end":651.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.98409375,"end":660.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.3159687500001,"end":664.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.32784375,"end":679.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.1865937500002,"end":682.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.2578437500001,"end":681.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.03409375,"end":682.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.2197187500001,"end":682.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.7934687500001,"end":682.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.9115937500001,"end":683.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.02971875,"end":683.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.16471875,"end":683.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.18159375,"end":683.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.1984687500001,"end":683.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.31659375,"end":685.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.54409375,"end":695.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.3484687499999,"end":701.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.16596875,"end":705.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.0303437500002,"end":712.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.67909375,"end":724.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.79534375,"end":729.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.12346875,"end":741.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.89909375,"end":737.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.5734687500001,"end":749.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.7197187500001,"end":760.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.63784375,"end":784.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.25846875,"end":791.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.26159375,"end":793.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.7422187500001,"end":805.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.7078437500002,"end":799.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.20471875,"end":814.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.80284375,"end":812.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.34659375,"end":821.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.4722187500001,"end":829.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.5047187500002,"end":830.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.8503437500001,"end":836.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.6215937500001,"end":847.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.1684687500001,"end":852.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.31534375,"end":855.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.56846875,"end":856.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.5847187500001,"end":858.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.8797187500002,"end":860.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.18346875,"end":885.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.5122187500001,"end":862.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.59096875,"end":871.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.78284375,"end":892.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.24596875,"end":897.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.6797187500001,"end":901.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.70471875,"end":900.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.86909375,"end":901.2234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.25721875,"end":902.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.0334687500001,"end":902.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.3203437500001,"end":902.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.3372187500001,"end":910.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.82659375,"end":903.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.3190937500001,"end":919.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":919.00971875,"end":923.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.93784375,"end":920.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.65909375,"end":923.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":923.59971875,"end":931.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.65034375,"end":924.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.61534375,"end":948.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":947.12346875,"end":947.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":948.9965937500001,"end":952.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":952.18596875,"end":952.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":952.43909375,"end":956.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":956.4890937500002,"end":961.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":962.12534375,"end":963.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":964.85909375,"end":965.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":965.9053437500002,"end":969.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":969.90471875,"end":971.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":972.4865937500001,"end":973.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":974.27534375,"end":982.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":982.6453437500002,"end":1006.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1007.9578437500002,"end":1012.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1012.8178437500001,"end":1021.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1022.90909375,"end":1034.8565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1034.5528437500002,"end":1037.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1037.40471875,"end":1037.5059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1037.5059687500002,"end":1038.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1037.53971875,"end":1039.0415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1039.39596875,"end":1044.1040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1044.18846875,"end":1046.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1046.7534687500001,"end":1047.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1048.69409375,"end":1050.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1050.92159375,"end":1052.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1052.3728437500001,"end":1056.3722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1056.55784375,"end":1060.5740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1061.08034375,"end":1062.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1061.5528437500002,"end":1062.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1063.1053437500002,"end":1066.1765937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.735,"end":14.604,"text":"主席、各位委員同事、各位官員、還有各位媒體朋友,大家早安、大家好。有請部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":21.952,"end":38.843,"text":"這段話是2020年蔡總統宣布第二期社安網所說的就職典禮的發言稿他提到我們要讓第一線的社工能量提升改善他們的工作環境讓社工能夠深入最基層"},{"start":39.844,"end":69.255,"text":"把過去社會安全網沒有接觸的人都找回來我們也不應該把責任全部推給醫療部門、個別法官、司法和行政部門應該要檢討制度結果我們很遺憾的發現到今天過了4年我們的社工能量還是沒有提升到處缺社工結果這件事事發大家是獵巫啊、醫師啊、社工師啊等等"},{"start":71.988,"end":85.561,"text":"這個剛剛部長有增加了非常多的篇幅本席也非常感動但是昨天列出來的檢討報告居然800字出現了11次地方"},{"start":87.964,"end":115.592,"text":"看到的時候真的很難過但剛才部長已經跟全國民眾還有凱凱的家屬道歉了我在這邊有一個小小的提議因為我也身為三個小孩的媽媽不知道部長如果在沒有媒體關注的狀況下你是否願意親自跟這位小男童的家屬道歉並且安慰他還有提供後續的安置還有你後續的做法呢"},{"start":116.685,"end":137.239,"text":"這沒有問題是 謝謝部長 謝謝部長今天願意道歉因為現在網路上已經有幾萬人聯署馬上破幾萬要聯署滅同致死可見人民對這件事有多麼生氣全國更是各地有民眾主動想要送花"},{"start":138.291,"end":163.055,"text":"跟這個凱凱致哀所以我們今天委員會召開最重要的意義就是我們應該要一起協助部長把這個社會安全網補起來因為您才是把每一絲每一絲的線補起來的人我們醫生、社工單位所有的地方政府都是這個網的一條線而已啊所以您才是最重要的角色"},{"start":164.144,"end":177.044,"text":"你有講到說14號說我們要同步制定托育專法盼本會期能送入立法院我想問這個會期剩下兩個月啦"},{"start":178.747,"end":189.871,"text":"您在這個會期真的可以送入立法院嗎?比較精確來講的話應該是送到行政院因為經過了這個專家會議討論之後的話我們會必須要我們的法規會再考慮這個法律的這個文字"},{"start":199.355,"end":221.101,"text":"那最後定案了才送那個行政院所以應該這個會期之內我們會我們人工生殖法已經搞兩年了還沒完成你現在說要做這個托育專法我不知道是不是就你法律專業的立場有什麼特別的考量您覺得現在我們的兒權法已經包含托嬰中心育兒機構還有保姆的規範都在裡面了"},{"start":223.482,"end":248.822,"text":"提出專法的意思是說你要把現在相關的條文、執法全部刪掉然後另立一個托育專法這是一個大工程欸我們的棟現在都還沒補好週末又有新的案件發生欸新的案件那個如果委員詢問我們再回答那這一個部分其實這個托育專法跟兒權法的修正我們已經討論兩年了所以已經差不多所以你很有信心這個會期"},{"start":250.043,"end":250.603,"text":"本席也在這邊希望"},{"start":274.799,"end":284.294,"text":"衛福部可以在一個月內提出相關的研究報告還有預計實施的辦法還有你們大概修改這個托育專法修法的方向還有預計的進度"},{"start":290.748,"end":310.782,"text":"這一個部分的話,因為兒少權法這一次的修正很重要一個是要符合這個CRC的一些就兒權公約的這一個部分那對於這一個做托育,尤其是像保姆還有托育的機構的管理的這部分因為如果仍然放在兒權法裡面的話,那他可能就會"},{"start":311.883,"end":311.943,"text":"主席"},{"start":328.559,"end":351.457,"text":"好 我們再來看109年衛福部曾經提出一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫當時呢這個連行政院院長都說我們5歲以下兒童的死亡率這個數字讓他感到非常的丟臉他自己公開在媒體上承認我們跟其他的OECD國家比起來"},{"start":354.127,"end":358.349,"text":"別人是1.7、2.4然後我們來看我們4.7、4.6當時你提出這個兒童醫療照護計畫幫自己訂了KPI你希望110、111、112、113是逐年下降結果呢我們發現實際的數據110、111是"},{"start":384.099,"end":403.324,"text":"4.8、5.1你的這個照護計畫是出了什麼事情?報告委員,這裡有兩個部分像委員這一張slide所顯示的右下方那邊新生兒的死亡率這部分的話有兩種算法一種是把22週裡面的也算進來所以現在再講4.8、5.1是這一個包括在裡面的"},{"start":407.105,"end":407.225,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":425.232,"end":451.907,"text":"新生兒及嬰兒的這個死因的回溯的這個計畫我們想要找出可避免的這個死亡的原因所以這個案例我們今天討論的這個案例你看你上面寫說期待降低死亡率減少兒童可預防可避免的死亡我們這個案例算不算你提到的可預防可避免的死亡是這個是深切檢討對"},{"start":453.148,"end":453.628,"text":"我們來看明別的表格"},{"start":475.626,"end":503.387,"text":"你把其他的策略目標還分成比如說兒童重難罕症疾病培訓兒童重症運送專業團隊未滿3歲而有專責醫師的照護推展脆弱家庭育兒指導服務好你列了這四項來我們看實際有達到你的KPI就是未滿3歲這兒童有專責醫師的照護其他你想要重難罕症疾病的這個"},{"start":504.508,"end":529.745,"text":"平台想要113年18個實際只有8個兒童重症運送專業團隊想要113年4個實際只有3個好你會把自己的KPI設成30%表示你深深的有發現其實醫療資源有限醫療資源不均你這個全國復開率你自己也知道資源配置不太合理好"},{"start":530.425,"end":536.971,"text":"你說你希望這些翠家的育兒都可以有專責醫師那你為什麼要把第三項跟第四項分開"},{"start":539.537,"end":556.81,"text":"你應該是推廣催弱家庭育兒指導服務加上有專責醫師的照顧啊不是嗎現在這個育兒專責醫師的照顧的話我們希望是每一位不管他的背景是怎樣每一位小孩子都有這樣子一個專責醫師所以我們這個設定的KPI30%那實際上是已經有超過了"},{"start":562.894,"end":577.334,"text":"但是對於退家的這個部分的話那是在裡面的另外一小塊因為這一些的話可能就會缺乏所謂的這個家屬那他的參與所以這個部分有特別要去做處理沒錯來我們可以看這個表"},{"start":579.597,"end":600.211,"text":"這個你都知道了部長也都知道了我們一個一般的幼兒需要加入專責醫師家長要上網先查詢還要再帶著手冊去填寫家長同意書來媒合基本上可以做到這件事情的家長就是不會在我們社會安全網之外嘛所以我們來看你的表"},{"start":602.028,"end":629.535,"text":"你說109年你就開始把社政還有衛政拉在一起結果你剛剛自己也在你的口頭報告承認說宣導不利嘛 對不對結果社會局跟衛生局他們都對於這件事情不太清楚你雖然109年你說你109年有做可是你根本沒有制度化也沒有系統化啊我去問基層的社工、兒科醫師他們都說"},{"start":631.535,"end":649.255,"text":"這半年來才知道而且經過這個新聞他們壓力超大因為每一個案主都去問他們說我的專責醫師呢你都還沒幫我找專責醫師所以你如果沒有制度化跟系統化你只有宣導這件事情我們怎麼把這個退家的人納進來嘛"},{"start":651.097,"end":677.968,"text":"我覺得這個利益非常好因為兒科醫師現在都已經不夠了全國都已經不夠了可是我們不是應該要先從接不住的人開始一定要注意他們都有被照顧到嗎這一個其實我們算過那如果說一位兒科醫師平均來照顧這一個有200個個案的話事實上我們大概只需要大概3000名的兒科醫師"},{"start":678.368,"end":683.611,"text":"我等一下跟你說基層醫師在反映什麼我們看一下你自己畫的圖我們現在這個圖的問題出在哪裡你看"},{"start":706.072,"end":726.768,"text":"你只有把一般幼兒一般新生兒還有高風險孕產婦所生的新生兒列到幼兒專責醫師最後呢你發現翠家的因子還是醫生自己要發現或是衛生局自己要發現而不是從源頭就把他們找出來嘛所以你就從這個破洞我們這個案例就從這個破洞掉下來啦"},{"start":731.375,"end":758.708,"text":"對 所以這一次我們的深刻檢討就是這一點一定是未來要去改善的就這個圖我幫你畫好了社政跟那個衛生之間的聯繫是不夠的但你要把它制度化你要把它制度化比如說你這通報以後多久以內誰去訪查兒科醫師要怎麼訪查嗎這個兒科醫師要做什麼這些SOP是有的現在只是說社政單位沒有把這個個案的名冊交給這個衛生單位"},{"start":760.929,"end":783.375,"text":"我們仔細的比較了一下15號上個禮拜五你跟雙北市政府開完共識會議還有給我們衛環委員會的書面報告你說要指定專責醫師的這兩個族群居然有一點小小的落差你跟雙北的共識會議你剛才說你要落實衛政跟社政你跟雙北的共識會議說是"},{"start":785.336,"end":793.038,"text":"政府安置的3歲以下兒童結果你給我們的報告範圍更大是脆弱家庭也把他納入"},{"start":795.213,"end":814.466,"text":"這個部分的話講的是說不需要家長同意書因為他的家屬是已經這個支持系統薄弱你還要找他的家長的話有一點困難所以你的意思是說政府安置的不用家長同意書很多脆弱家庭找不到家長你不把他列進來喔"},{"start":815.587,"end":836.644,"text":"所以要直接就列進來,不必去經過他的同意的啦是,是,好這邊基層的聲音,我這邊也要反映一下基層的聲音我很多同學是小兒科嘛,他說第一你本來一班幼兒一年是500點嘛,你把他調到1000點很好"},{"start":837.694,"end":851.677,"text":"可是你現在你看發生這麼大的重大事件這些脆家的小孩都要交給他們照顧他們當然只是其中裡面的一條線第一你點數不用提升嗎他不用比一般兒童更多嗎有啊不是應該三倍五倍嗎是比那個高"},{"start":861.535,"end":883.924,"text":"這件事情是這樣子的第一個就是說我們把崔家這一個兒童放進來只是讓他identify出來說他手上有這樣子的一個小孩子如果沒有identify出來這些小孩子到他的診所去看病的時候你沒有給他發現說這個有有這一個這一個可能是額虐的話這個也"},{"start":885.825,"end":895.862,"text":"本來就是醫師本來就是所謂的義務通報人員對他還是有一定的責任的啦是他如果是被指定的話他還要加上一年訪視兩次欸"},{"start":898.028,"end":902.309,"text":"我希望您還是可以關懷這些基層醫師因為他們願意納入你的分級醫療看你是不是考慮也把大型的醫療機構也納入這目前已經要把他們納入了"},{"start":923.775,"end":924.355,"text":"關於這些特殊家庭的點數我們之後再來講"},{"start":952.568,"end":953.609,"text":"我今天搜尋到的保姆是合法保姆"},{"start":982.83,"end":1006.653,"text":"我今天想要知道我這個保姆是不是違法居然是連到違反而效法專區叫我們自己慢慢撈我在撈的時候嚇死了只要是有做過這個未成年犯罪等等性侵性行為全部都列在那裡面跟保姆全部混在一起"},{"start":1008.034,"end":1021.349,"text":"那現在家長其實最關心的是什麼?家長最關心的是我這個保姆有沒有過一些賦品嘛等等的嘛而你就是把他跟這些違反兒校法專區全部混在一起這根本不是家長想看的資訊啊"},{"start":1023.465,"end":1038.482,"text":"包委員這一個部分是依在法律規定我們必須要公告的項目那至於委員說到說對於保姆那他的一個搜尋的平台這我們會來努力對而且你也應該把他自己獨立成一項對啦就是要分開"},{"start":1040.084,"end":1040.244,"text":"陳菁徽委員"}]}},{"id":"149963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a85b6e765ed2a9db987ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a6fd79bbc0b0a3b3945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:19:32 - 10:31:08","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":696,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:31:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:19:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":296,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時19分）麻煩請教育部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。部長，大家都非常關心校園暴力，也非常關心校園霸凌，但相關事件還是層出不窮，也越來越嚴重，你覺得教育部應不應該檢討？"],["潘部長文忠：針對這個議題，本來教育部就是一直視為重要的議題在執行中，也一直在精進中。"],["葉委員元之：要面對問題啦，好不好？我們接下來其實都是跟你討論問題，我覺得學生人權滿重要的，但保護那些想要在學校好好學習的學生也很重要，給老師在教學現場足夠的尊重以及適當的工具也很重要，所以在保護學生權利的同時，怎麼樣兼顧可以讓那些想要學習的學生好好學習、安全回家，這個是教育部責無旁貸的，以現在的數據來看，實際上教育部在這方面是失職的，我必須要講是失職的，每次看到這些事件在新聞出現，大家都非常痛心。我看到剛剛很多委員在跟部長的答詢，部長都說學校要怎麼做又怎麼做，可是我就非常好奇，部長你真的知道學校老師在第一線的真實狀況嗎？你有去瞭解過嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我討論任何政策都會邀請第一線的學校來參與……"],["葉委員元之：可是我跟老師……"],["潘部長文忠：包含這一次注意事項的管理，我主持工作小組會議超過七次……"],["葉委員元之：我建議你微服出巡，到學校去跟老師聊聊看，你才會知道真實的聲音……"],["潘部長文忠：我會，邀請來的第一線老師一定會講真實的心聲……"],["葉委員元之：不一定啦，有時候你在他不見得會講。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦，委員。"],["葉委員元之：那我跟你講一下我聽到的，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，請委員指教。"],["葉委員元之：現在大家都在推正向教育，正向教育很棒啦，所以老師也不太敢罰嘛！另外就是剛剛講到現在要放寬一些搜書包的規定對吧？"],["潘部長文忠：就是安全檢查啦！"],["葉委員元之：可是實際上你知道嗎？有時候搜到一些違禁品，比如今天搜到彈簧刀可以怎麼做？"],["潘部長文忠：這一次的注意事項連這個細節我們都有一個手冊，他就是應該保管啊！"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，他保管然後再通知家長領回嘛對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：先保管，然後看這個學生的樣態，不是說直接就叫家長領回。"],["葉委員元之：這就不能沒收嘛！有的時候家長可以領回對吧？"],["潘部長文忠：這就看他調查的結果。"],["葉委員元之：家長領回之後，隔天學生再帶彈簧刀來，然後保管一段時間再叫家長領回，然後領回之後再帶來，就這樣無止境啦！這還是針對學校老師覺得這個學生不是那種幫派小孩，他們還敢搜，如果遇到幫派小孩的話，老師敢搜嗎？老師不敢惹他們啊！老師也有家庭啊，老師如果去惹那些幫派小孩，這些幫派老大就站在門口等他了啦！這些狀況部長真的要去瞭解一下……"],["潘部長文忠：委員……"],["葉委員元之：我還沒講完，你不要急著插話好不好？因為我也沒有在噹你，我們只是討論問題。我覺得把所有問題都推給學校、推給老師，其實給老師很大的壓力，現在在每個學校裡面，很多生教組長都是代理老師在兼任，為什麼？因為正式的都不敢做、都不敢去惹這些幫派小孩啊！所以並不是所有事情都全部推給學校，應該要找少年隊，這是我的建議啦！你找少年隊，很多幫派小孩他們背後都是有大哥、有老大的，你找少年隊去壓制他們的老大，跟他們講說在學校裡面要有學校的規則，你要在幫派混，當然另外有警察可以去處理，但在學校就是要做學生，不可以針對老師，否則的話，叫那些少年隊去找他老大的麻煩嘛！不然你叫那些老師去處理，老師回到家也是要抱小孩、也有家庭要養，你叫他去對那些幫派小孩，他敢嗎？我覺得第一個真的是要針對問題。","第二個，我建議是不是在國中的部分可以增加校安人員，現在高中有校安人員，對不對？有一些像軍人退伍、教官退伍去當校安人員，但國中沒有啊！實際上國中這個問題才是比較嚴重的，所以部長可不可以研議一下，我覺得編一個預算，讓所有的國中至少按照比例可以有一到兩位的校安人員，這做得到嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告一下，委員剛剛講的這個，絕對不是讓老師單獨承擔所有的事情，如果就少事法的規範，如果這個孩子是攜械，比如像違反規定的彈簧刀等刀械，並不是要學校沒收，那個其實是可以通報到少輔會或相關單位，由這些來做協助，如果遇到緊急狀態，本來學校跟警政之間就有互相支援的這種契約，而且這個做法才不會讓老師……說實在的，面對這個問題，怎麼可能由老師來單獨承擔，學校的應變及輔導委員會對這些特定的孩子，事實上應該有這個機制，而不是說只在學校……"],["葉委員元之：你講的意思是說有一個機制，但就是沒辦法執行嘛！我們講的就是說……"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！委員，你也是教育專長……"],["葉委員元之：這很難執行嘛！今天老師面對幫派小孩沒有壓力嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我剛才講的就是現在的機制啊！我在臺北縣服務的時候就是這樣啊！我們跟少年隊為什麼密集的合作？就是說當有一些學校碰到應該要支援，現在的機制也是如此啊！"],["葉委員元之：我認為一定是不夠啦！我剛剛講的是少年隊能不能直接去幫派壓制他們？"],["潘部長文忠：但是這個學校……"],["葉委員元之：因為如果不這樣做的話。你剛剛講了嘛，你在臺北縣服務的時代就是這個機制，那為什麼到現在問題還是一直存在？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，我要跟你講……"],["葉委員元之：所以問題沒有解決嘛，我現在就是因為問題沒有解決，所以才在跟你討論嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，針對你所說的這個現象，我應該再說當時臺北縣在這個方面，從一千多個中輟學生降為五百多個，當時教育局跟警察局之間的合作，包含跟學校的支持，連掃蕩學校周邊的……"],["葉委員元之：部長，如果你已經做得很好的話，我們今天不需要在這邊討論這個專題嘛，所以……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，現在新北出現的這個事情你也知道啊！"],["葉委員元之：不用去扯什麼新北不新北啦，只是在那邊推來推去……"],["潘部長文忠：這個個案就是在新北發生的啊！"],["葉委員元之：在新北發生的怎麼樣嘛……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，我每兩週會主持一次這樣的會議……"],["葉委員元之：我現在是在這邊跟你討論說這個問題還是繼續存在，我們要把問題解決，結果你跟我扯說在新北幹嘛、以前怎樣，以前如果做得好，我們現在就不會有這個專案報告嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦，因為委員一直覺得學校跟少年隊之間沒有連結，所以我跟你報告現在就有機制啊！"],["葉委員元之：我現在就是說你們做得不夠嘛，不然的話，為什麼會發生這個狀況？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，如果學校碰到孩子也不願意跟警政單位連結，委員，你覺得這個情況應該怎麼辦？"],["葉委員元之：我現在就是告訴你，真實的狀況就是很多老師也不敢去惹這些幫派小孩。"],["潘部長文忠：不用他惹啊！校長來通報，學務人員來通報……"],["葉委員元之：校長敢通報嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：為什麼不能通報少年隊？那個合作的契約書……"],["葉委員元之：現在不是通報的問題，你要請少年隊去瞭解這些狀況、去調查啊！不是通報的問題。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，那個就是一個連結機制去處理，我把學校跟警政單位之間的合作契約書給委員看，你就會知道這裡頭有非常多學校所操作的……"],["葉委員元之：那校安人員呢？要不要增加？"],["潘部長文忠：關於校安人員，我在這個報告裡面有提到了……"],["葉委員元之：可以是不是？"],["潘部長文忠：我們會增加國中學務處副組長的部分會先來增設，說實在現在學務處的負擔很重，我們除了減課的終點協助以外，這方面會來修員額編制準則，希望能夠在上面來增加人力。"],["葉委員元之：那校安人員呢？"],["潘部長文忠：關於校安人員，其實我跟第一線也有討論過，如果說是非常少數、也不是正式的人員，這個其實在學校的運作有它的難度。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：至於學校……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼有難度？"],["潘部長文忠：如果是一個約聘的人員，請問委員，如果單獨一個人永遠就在這個學校，也沒有任何發展升遷的機會……"],["葉委員元之：不會啊，高中就有校安人員啊！"],["潘部長文忠：高中的創新人員（校安）是因為他本身是過去教官的這個機制之下，它就是一個體系啦！他不是……"],["葉委員元之：那你可以找高中的體系來支援國中嘛！增加一到兩人嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分我們可以來研議，我只是跟委員先報告這個階段我們會先做什麼。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我就是覺得有些學校有需求，所以才會在這邊提出來嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這方面的作法我們會採取多管道的模式，但是會來增加人力。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你還是研議一下好不好？因為也是有人跟我反映說希望在國中可以成立校安人員，其實只要一到兩名就夠了。你說本來高中就有機制，那就用高中機制他原本在高中服務的，他有一個資料庫，請他來國中一到兩位就可以了啊！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為這個涉及到編制等等，我們可能要再做一些……"],["葉委員元之：編制這些都是技術性的問題，就看你要不要做而已嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：我們會有階段性的作法。"],["葉委員元之：好，再來是剛剛講的18歲以前前科塗銷，現在教育部的方向是怎麼樣？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分當然是由司法院在主管，教育部的態度應該是這樣說：從教育來講，對於這一些犯錯的少年，還是應該要給相關改過的機會，但是否年限、時間一到就塗銷，我覺得這個要斟酌，一定是……"],["葉委員元之：所以教育部是希望維持，就是不用塗銷嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有、沒有，我要跟委員報告，比如學校也有所謂銷過的機制，學生犯了過，但是後來有優良的表現，我認為……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得要塗銷這個事情要非常謹慎。"],["潘部長文忠：是啊，所以我說要有相當條件，能夠確認到孩子確實是改過了。"],["葉委員元之：很多孩子在犯案的時候，根據新聞報導，他還會跟女朋友炫耀說我做這個事情沒關係，反正法律會保護我，之後我就可以成為黑幫老大，他們現在做很多事情是故意的啦！他覺得前科會塗銷，然後假釋三分之一就可以出來了，刑期也可以減少，所以他覺得做這個事情，關一下出來以後就變大尾了嘛！就像這個割喉案的郭姓少年，他關出來之後是幾歲？大概幾歲？"],["潘部長文忠：我不是司法單位……"],["葉委員元之：大概20到21歲左右，出來之後他就變大尾了。所以我們的法律如果訂得那麼寬鬆，我覺得會讓校園安全出現更多的漏洞。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為司法院很重視這個議題，它會蒐集幾個部會的建議，也提到……"],["葉委員元之：我現在是問教育部嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，教育部已經表達了。"],["葉委員元之：我是希望教育部可以堅持，這種東西不能塗銷啦！而且這也沒有違反保護機制，為什麼？因為說實在的，每個人走在路上也不會知道他有沒有前科，只有警察會知道。他未來如果犯案的話，警察會知道他之前有前科，或者在判案的時候，一般人是不會知道的。但是如果把它塗銷之後，很多人就會覺得反正沒有前科，就為所欲為，那善良的小朋友怎麼辦？我覺得教育部這個部分希望能夠站在想好好學習的小朋友的立場去表達，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請登記第6號洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.19409375,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.492843750000002,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.039093750000003,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.44346875000001,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.31221875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.12971875000001,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.17159375,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.77471875,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.93034375,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.56284375000001,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.92096875,"end":110.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.45971875000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.26034375,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.27284375,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.06909375,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.13159375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.02596875,"end":140.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.11034375,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.16096875,"end":140.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.21159375000002,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.43096875,"end":140.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.44784375,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.53221875,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.75159375,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.84409375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.16471875000002,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.91534375,"end":146.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":158.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.56034375000002,"end":150.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.64409375,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.53284375,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.72784375,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.88346875000002,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.71034375000002,"end":190.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.41471875000002,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.83159375000002,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.70596875,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.43784375,"end":232.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.87221875,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.96034375000002,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.30596875000003,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.95909375,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":327.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.77034375,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.69284375,"end":338.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.72221875,"end":329.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.80534375,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.47909375,"end":346.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.81534375,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.86596875000004,"end":374.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.62534375,"end":355.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.43534375,"end":359.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.93909375000004,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":379.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.65909375,"end":383.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.06784375,"end":390.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.38721875000005,"end":394.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.17971875,"end":405.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.96721875000003,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.03471875,"end":408.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.28784375000004,"end":408.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.35534375000003,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.59159375,"end":414.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.65909375,"end":409.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.34596875000005,"end":419.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.12159375000005,"end":422.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.72909375,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.24784375,"end":423.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.39096875,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.61846875000003,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.01909375,"end":427.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.36471875,"end":429.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.55846875000003,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.78471875,"end":442.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.93221875,"end":443.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.37096875000003,"end":469.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.53971875,"end":444.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.93596875000003,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.99971875000006,"end":471.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.17659375000005,"end":481.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.21721875000003,"end":482.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.43659375000004,"end":483.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.75284375,"end":485.15346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.80346875000004,"end":484.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.71034375000005,"end":486.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.48659375000005,"end":495.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.76784375000005,"end":497.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.43846875,"end":507.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.28096875000006,"end":511.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.45784375000005,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.68971875000005,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.6428437500001,"end":519.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.38471875,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.86909375,"end":522.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.98721875,"end":523.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0378437500001,"end":523.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.29096875,"end":523.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.19784375,"end":533.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.0403437500001,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.69346875,"end":543.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.33409375,"end":547.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.3715937500001,"end":551.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.8984687500001,"end":553.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.84346875,"end":552.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.3115937499999,"end":560.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.37784375,"end":567.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.25034375,"end":581.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.18909375,"end":584.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.2734687500001,"end":581.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.47596875,"end":581.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.5303437499999,"end":593.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.6303437500001,"end":597.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.7522187500001,"end":599.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1147187500001,"end":598.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.07659375,"end":630.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.69596875,"end":632.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.23159375,"end":636.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.8728437500001,"end":634.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.9440937500001,"end":639.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.99846875,"end":646.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.87096875,"end":652.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.9922187500001,"end":659.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.0090937500001,"end":653.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.0847187500001,"end":656.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.77596875,"end":666.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.43721875,"end":677.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.1909687500001,"end":686.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.5859687500001,"end":694.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.7622187500001,"end":694.65659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.229,"end":9.833,"text":"麻煩請教育部長謝謝"},{"start":14.64,"end":43.235,"text":"葉元好不然大家都非常關心校園暴力也非常關心校園霸凌但是這個事件層出不窮然後越來越嚴重你覺得教育部不應該要檢討委員這個議題本來教育部就是一直是重要的議題對啦對啦也一直在精進中要面對問題啦好不好我們接下來其實都是跟你討論問題是我覺得其實有學生人權是蠻重要的但是保護那些想要在學校好好學習的學生他也是很重要"},{"start":44.615,"end":71.386,"text":"給老師在教學現場足夠的尊重以及適當的工具也是很重要所以我覺得在保護學生權利的同時怎麼樣兼顧可以讓那些好學生想要學習學生好好學習安全的回家這個是教育部責務旁貸的以現在的數據來看的話實際上教育部在這方面是失職的必須要講是失職每次看到這些事件在新聞出現大家都非常痛心"},{"start":71.986,"end":86.333,"text":"那剛剛我看到很多委員在跟部長的答詢部長都說學校要怎麼做學校要怎麼做可是我就非常好奇就是說像部長你真的知道學校特別是老師在第一線的真實狀況嗎你有去了解過嗎"},{"start":87.492,"end":108.638,"text":"委員我討論政治政策都會邀請第一線的學校來參與對可是我跟老師 包含這次注意事項的管理我主持會議還有工作小組會超過七次我建議你微服出巡到學校去跟老師聊聊看你會知道跟真實的聲音邀請來的第一線老師一定會講真實的心聲不一定有時候你在他不見得會講不會啦那我跟你講一下我聽到了嘛好不好好我跟你講我聽到了請問指教對"},{"start":112.62,"end":132.84,"text":"現在應該大家都推那個正向教育正向教育也很棒啦所以老師也不太敢罰嘛那另外就是剛剛講說這個要收書現在是要放寬一些收書包的規定嘛對吧就是安全檢查啦對啦可是實際上你知道嗎有時候收到一些違禁品比如說到彈簧刀今天收到彈簧刀可以怎麼做"},{"start":134.127,"end":157.383,"text":"委員這一次的注意事項連這個細節我們都有一個手冊他就是應該做保管啊保管嘛對嘛保管他保管他再通知家長領回嘛對不對先做保管這樣看這個學生的樣態不是說直接就叫家長領回對這就不能沒收嘛然後後來之後就家長就可以有的時候家長可以領回嘛對吧有的時候嘛這個就看他調查的結果然後家長領回之後呢隔天學生再帶彈簧刀來啦"},{"start":158.664,"end":184.031,"text":"然後呢?然後保管一段時間再叫這樣領回啦然後領回之後再帶來啦然後就這樣無止盡啦然後再來就是這還是針對說學校老師覺得說這個學生不是那種幫派小孩他們還敢收啊如果遇到幫派小孩的話老師敢收嗎?老師不敢惹他們啊老師有家庭啊老師如果說去惹那些幫派小孩這些幫派老大在家裡在門口等他了啦"},{"start":185.493,"end":193.95,"text":"所以這些狀況部長真的要去了解一下我還沒講完不要急著插話好不好因為我也沒有在ㄉㄧㄤ你我們只是討論問題"},{"start":195.885,"end":224.483,"text":"我覺得把所有的問題都推給學校推給老師其實給老師很大的壓力現在在每個學校裡面很多生教組長都是代理老師在兼任為什麼因為正式都不敢做嘛都不敢去惹這些幫派小孩啊所以不是說所有事情都全部推給學校應該要找少年隊介這是我的建議啦找少年隊很多幫派小孩他們背後都有大哥有老大的你找少年隊去壓制他們老大跟他們講說在學校裡面要有學校的規則"},{"start":226.244,"end":251.952,"text":"你要在幫派混當然有另外警察可以去處理但在學校就是要做學生不可以針對老師否則的話教那些少年都會去找他的老大麻煩嘛否則你教那些老師老師回到家也是要抱小孩啊也是有家庭要養你就要去對那些幫派小孩他敢嗎所以真的我覺得第一個真的是要針對問題第二個我建議啦是不是在國中的部分可以增加校安人員現在高中有校安人員嘛"},{"start":252.592,"end":270.1,"text":"對,有一些像軍人退伍啊、教官退伍去當校安人員但國中沒有啊實際上國中這個問題才是比較嚴重的嘛所以部長可不可以研議一下我覺得編個預算讓所有的國中可以有至少按照比例可以有一到兩位的校安人員這做得到嗎"},{"start":271.164,"end":274.687,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我應該講這個絕對不是讓老師單獨承擔所有的事情如果從邵氏法的規範裡面我跟委員報告如果這個孩子是西界比如像已經是違背的像彈簧刀等這個機械不是需要沒收那個其實是可以通報到我們包含邵輔會或相關的單位"},{"start":291.678,"end":302.226,"text":"由這些來做協助如果遇到緊急狀態之下本來就有學校跟警政之間有這種互相支援的契約而且這個做法才不會讓老師真的面對這個問題怎麼可能由老師來單獨承擔"},{"start":306.75,"end":333.788,"text":"學校的應變跟輔導委員會對這些特定的孩子事實上應該有這個機制我不是說我只在學校你講的意思是說有這個機制有這個機制但是沒辦法執行嘛你也是教育專訪你知道就是很難執行嘛今天的老師面對到幫派小孩沒有壓力嗎不是啊你剛才講的就是現在的機制啊我在台北縣服務的時候就是這樣啊我跟少年隊為什麼密集的合作"},{"start":334.548,"end":353.246,"text":"就是說當有碰到一些學校應該支援現在的機制也如此啊我認為一定是不夠啦一定不夠我剛剛講的是說少年隊能不能直接去找去幫派跟他們去跟壓制他們但這個學校因為如果說你不這樣做的話你剛剛講了嘛你在台北縣服務時代就是這個機制那為什麼到現在問題還是一直存在"},{"start":353.868,"end":353.908,"text":"部長 部長"},{"start":372.188,"end":384.632,"text":"連掃蕩學校周邊的...如果說你已經做得很好的話,我們今天不需要在這邊討論這個專題嘛。所以,不用去扯什麼新北不新北啦,只是...不是啦,這個案就是新北發生的啊。我當時,我跟委員報告,我每兩週會主持一次這樣的會議。"},{"start":389.853,"end":419.069,"text":"我現在是在這邊跟你討論說這個問題還是繼續存在我們把問題解決你跟我扯說在新北幹嘛以前怎樣以前如果做得好我們現在不會有這個專報告嘛因為委員一直覺得說學校跟少年隊之間沒有連結我跟你們報告現在就有機制啊做得不夠嘛就做不夠不然的話為什麼會發生這個狀況不是如果學校碰到孩子也不願意跟警政單位連結委員你覺得這個情況應該怎麼辦我跟你講我現在就是告訴你真實的狀況就是很多老師也不敢去惹這些斑斑的小孩"},{"start":419.309,"end":419.749,"text":"那校安人員呢?"},{"start":443.582,"end":447.705,"text":"我跟在這個報告裡面有提到我們會來再增加國中有關在這方面學務處的副組長的部分會先來增設對於部分因為現在說在學務處的負擔很重我們除了檢課的終點協助以外這方面會來修有關這個設置條例這個編制準則希望能夠在上面來增加人力"},{"start":470.231,"end":470.672,"text":"為什麼?為什麼有難度?"},{"start":486.55,"end":497.678,"text":"一個人不是去了如果是一個約聘的人員請問委員如果單獨一個人永遠就在這個學校也沒有任何的這種發展升天的機會不過高中就有校安人員啊高中的校安的創新人員是因為他本身是過去我們教官的這個機制之下我們有同時他就是一個體系啦"},{"start":507.226,"end":523.847,"text":"那你可以找高中體系來支援國中嗎?這個我們可研議,我只是跟委員先報告這個階段我們會先做什麼?尤其有些學校有需求才會這邊提出來我剛剛跟委員報告說他的做法我們會採取多管道的模式但是會來增加人力"},{"start":525.256,"end":543.186,"text":"所以我覺得你還是研議一下好不好因為也是有人跟我反映啦就希望在國中可以成立校園人員只要一到兩名其實就夠了啦那你說本來高中有機制你就高中機制原本的他原本在高中服務的他有一個資料庫請他來國中一到兩位就可以了啦"},{"start":544.383,"end":564.15,"text":"委員這個因為涉及到編制等等我們可能要再做一些編制這都是技術性的問題你就看要不要做而已嘛沒有我跟委員說我們會有階段性的做法好那再來是現在18歲以前的剛剛現在講的那個前科塗銷現在教育部的方向是怎樣這是主管當然由司法院在主管對"},{"start":564.87,"end":583.657,"text":"那教育部的態度應該是這樣說從教育來講就是這些我們犯錯的少年還是應該要給相關的這種改過的機會但是呢是否連線的時間一到就塗銷我覺得這個要斟酌啦一定是教育部是希望維持就不用塗銷嗎"},{"start":584.577,"end":587.601,"text":"我要跟委員說那是應該比如說學校也有所謂的消過的機制學生犯了過但是後來有優良的表現我覺得要塗銷這個事情要非常謹慎是啊所以我是說要有相當條件能夠確認到孩子確實是改過了"},{"start":601.937,"end":628.967,"text":"這個孩子今天很多孩子他在犯案的時候跟他這個新聞報的啊跟女朋友炫耀啊說我做這事沒關係反正法律會保護我啊之後呢我就可以成為黑幫老大他們現在做很多事情是故意的啦他覺得說前科會塗銷然後假設三分之一就可以出來了嘛刑期也可以減少嘛所以他覺得做這個事情我以後出來關一下就變大為了嘛就像就像這個割喉案這個郭鑫少年他之後會關關出來是幾歲"},{"start":631.718,"end":656.111,"text":"大概幾歲?大概21歲20到21歲左右嘛出來之後他就變大尾了啦所以如果說我們的法律是定的那麼寬鬆的話就會讓我覺得校園安全出現更多的漏洞因為司法院對這個議題很重視他正在會收集幾個部會的建議教育部我現在是問教育部嘛我是希望教育部可以堅持啦這個東西不能塗銷啦"},{"start":660.313,"end":686.251,"text":"而且我跟你講這也沒有違反保護機制為什麼因為說實在每個人走在路上我們也不會知道他有沒有前科只有警察會知道嘛就他未來如果犯案的話警察會知道說他之前有前科或是在判案的時候有一般人是不會知道的但是如果說把他塗銷之後很多人就會覺得反正沒有前科啊我就為所欲為的啊那善良的小朋友怎麼辦所以我覺得教育部這個部分希望能夠站在"},{"start":687.625,"end":693.183,"text":"大家好好想學習的這一塊小朋友的這種立場好不好去表達好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab1a42ea11ecc63d93919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6bee343b31a484f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:15:20 - 10:28:10","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":770,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:28:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:15:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時15分）主席，有請部長、副秘書長。"],["主席：蔡部長、副秘書長請上臺。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：想請教部長，為什麼我們要有偵查不公開？是為了要貫徹無罪推定原則，保障被告受公平審判之權利並且避免輿論未審先判，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是其中之一，當然也要保證未來的偵查能夠更順暢，怕有一些洩密影響到未來的偵查。"],["羅委員智強：我再想請教您，我們照刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條：「偵查，不公開之」，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：是！"],["羅委員智強：請問違反的法律責任是什麼？如果我們的檢察官違反偵查不公開的法律責任是什麼？"],["蔡部長清祥：可能涉及到洩密的問題。"],["羅委員智強：刑法第一百三十二條，對不對？有關於公務人員……"],["蔡部長清祥：他有行政責任，也有刑事責任。"],["羅委員智強：我講刑事責任的部分。"],["蔡部長清祥：刑事責任的部分有可能是洩密的罪嫌。"],["羅委員智強：有可能嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：就是刑法第一百三十二條第一項有三年以下有期徒刑，過失犯的話是一年以下有期徒刑。我想請教一下，我看法務部的報告當中，提到每年度7月、次年度1月針對偵查不公開的檢討情形要去揭露，到目前為止，我們就以去年為例，請問偵查不公開你們檢討了多少件數？討論的件數多少？未依偵查不公開作業辦法公開或揭露之件數及查辦件數、處分人數，多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：每半年要公布一次，現在是112年的下半年，我們總共檢討了1,672件。"],["羅委員智強：好，請問多少件成立？"],["蔡部長清祥：大概可能有違反之虞的有94件。"],["羅委員智強：有多少人被處分？"],["蔡部長清祥：查辦的有50件，結果如何，現在還沒有出來。"],["羅委員智強：結果如何還沒有出來啊？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["羅委員智強：一年了。"],["蔡部長清祥：半年，半年是到112年12月底。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是我們從開始檢討偵查不公開，我剛剛看沈發惠委員講7,000件，有367件成立，15個人被懲處？"],["蔡部長清祥：他是從108年啦！"],["羅委員智強：好，那我就從108年開始算。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，委員需要資料我會後再提供，我現在手邊……"],["羅委員智強：我想請問處分的15人是什麼身分？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是偵查不公開辦法……"],["羅委員智強：是檢察官，還是警察？"],["蔡部長清祥：都有。"],["羅委員智強：多少檢察官？"],["蔡部長清祥：我現在手邊沒有資料，我們瞭解以後跟委員說明。"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天你們的報告當中、你們的檢討裡面也完全沒有附加任何的數字，問到所有的東西你都說要回去提供給我，我也希望你會提供給我。再想請教你一個問題，剛剛我們已經談論到今天違反偵查不公開是有刑事責任的，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：有可能啦！要看整個案情如何……"],["羅委員智強：好，我想請教你到現在為止，照沈委員講7,000件的討論、367件的成立，我想請問您，我們的檢察官、檢察機關最後被起訴的案件有多少？按照刑法第一百三十二條，起訴的案件有多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：我要瞭解看看。"],["羅委員智強：瞭解多少？我覺得法務部部長應該要瞭解吧！如果檢察官有人因此被起訴，你總會知道吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，因為各地的數字不同，我們還要經過統計……"],["羅委員智強：我直接告訴部長，你們現在所有的行政懲處，基本上記記警告、記記申誡，你覺得這有約束力嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：還是有。"],["羅委員智強：有約束力？道德約束力啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！我們常常也會辦教育，畢竟也要把一些狀況跟其他同仁講。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛您在備詢當中，我看到前面的莊委員在質詢你的時候，你就說很多媒體報導可能是媒體很厲害，也不一定是檢察官。我分享一個個人的親身經歷，我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過，我還記得傳訊以後，檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說：「羅先生，請你出去不要對外說任何有關案情的事情。」我說：「好，沒問題。」可是不到一個禮拜，我在接受詢問的內容，週刊全部寫出來了，我想請問一下我們的部長，是我告訴媒體的嗎？去告訴他們對我可能不利的一些消息，是我告訴媒體的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我相信委員應該不會嘛。"],["羅委員智強：我只有跟檢察官講啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他的人，或是這個案情……"],["羅委員智強：那問題就來了，今天我直接告訴大家，偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同具文嘛！","我們再講一個具體的例子，你總知道馬總統被起訴的案件，對不對？我想請問你，你知道偵查不公開如果反映在個案上，監察院曾經對於北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告，在2019年12月18號，有看過這個報告嗎？我告訴你報告的內容，我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題。他認為媒體大幅報導、公開照片、相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法第兩百四十五條偵查不公開的規定，嚴重侵犯人權，監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責，你覺得是對的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：監察院當然有它的職責、它的角度看法……"],["羅委員智強：然後我再跟你講，調查報告講當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢泰釗跟主任檢察官王鑫健涉洩密後，然後北檢傳訊新新聞、自由時報、鏡週刊3位撰文記者，他們都稱檢察的主任檢察官、三中案承辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料，然後調閱通聯紀錄也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九等多名被告或相關人士聯繫，就此認定檢方沒有洩密，就簽結了，就這樣就認定了。調查報告也認為說你這樣作法……事實上記者本來就不會告訴你他的消息來源啊！你問他，他不會告訴你啊！可是就據以把它簽結了。我想請問你，真的有保障被告所謂偵查不公開、無罪推定這樣的一個法益嗎？有保障嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是落實執行的程度如何啦……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，事實上你可以從所有的重大案件，包括從楊文科案，非常厲害啊！今天楊文科的案情是誰把它全部揭露的？是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！都是誰報導的，鉅細靡遺的報導？"],["蔡部長清祥：那個是承辦的檢察署，它因為外界的質疑或是外界要瞭解，它做適度的說明。"],["羅委員智強：它做適度的說明？請問它是不是因為媒體報導之後才出來說明？是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：有可能媒體去詢問嘛！"],["羅委員智強：媒體去詢問你就可以說明，就可以開始去帶風向了嗎？是這個意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是帶風向。"],["羅委員智強：那偵查不公開，到底是規範什麼的啊？我再講下一個例子，今天偵查不公開規範的客體是人，那規範對象是誰？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是辦案的人員嘛！"],["羅委員智強：辦案的人員嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，台權會問內政部有2,300萬我們全臺灣人民的個資被洩漏，結果內政部「一退六二五」，你知道它的藉口是什麼嗎？它不肯交代所有、不肯做政府公開透明的訊息，它的理由藉口是什麼？是什麼你知道嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦，偵查不公開……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那我想請教你，法務部有沒有要求內政部……"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：必須用偵查不公開做理由，不公開它該公開的資訊，有沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：是啊，很多案子也是都沒有經過承辦單位……告訴它你不能公開才不公開，他們自己不想公開，就說這個是偵查不公開。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得非常好！我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好！今天偵查不公開，實際上某種程度已經被行政機關用來當作遮掩政府透明資訊，甚至敷衍立法院該有的監督的一個藉口了。將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開，我覺得就真的直接來問法務部的意見啦！偵查不公開可不可以做為今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由，就讓法務部來判斷，你覺得如何呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容，在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的。"],["羅委員智強：辦案人員不能對外，但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督，對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資訊，就拿台權會質疑的這案子來看，你從哪邊基礎資料、基礎資訊，難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不過，如果行政機關是接受辦案單位去詢問說這部分怎麼樣的情節，請它提供資料，它也許會認為因為是檢察機關來問或是司法警察機關來問……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛都講過，偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員。"],["蔡部長清祥：辦案的內容，還有包括瞭解辦案的也有……"],["羅委員智強：刑事訴訟法是規定辦案人員啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們作業辦法裡面有，如果其他行政機關……"],["羅委員智強：作業辦法是法律嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然在法律之下。"],["羅委員智強：如果你今天要規範到行政院、行政官員都要偵查不公開的話，你就寫到法律裡面去啊，不是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果牽涉到刑事案件的偵查，當然它也有不公開的責任啦！"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講的是什麼？今天很多的案件，現在的行政官員就是一句偵查不公開，就全部推給法務部，推給檢察機關。"],["蔡部長清祥：要看案情的內容啦，如果涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能公開。"],["羅委員智強：最後我再問你一句話，我們在2022年5月9號，邢泰釗上任交接典禮的時候，他突然說三中案在高等法院審理當中，若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決。我想請問你，邢泰釗檢察總長適合談論個案嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天整個法制上偵查不公開，不管從你處分人數，今天有沒有按照刑法，所謂起訴的人數，包括你處分的輕重，根本就形同具文，然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢察機關高興要洩漏給媒體，獨家報導都出來了，然後就跟大家講媒體很厲害。因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦，這一點我也希望將來司法法制委員會要討論這件事情，到底偵查不公開範圍跟界限、跟保障的密度與強度為何，不能變成是檢察機關今天我愛公開就公開，就獨家了，我不愛公開，就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.137843750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.25971875,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.17471875,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.58346875,"end":28.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.63409375,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.80284375,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.473468750000002,"end":32.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.447843750000004,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.78471875,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.564093750000005,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.322218750000005,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.962843750000005,"end":69.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.94409375000001,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.39909375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.25096875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.03971875,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.91284375000001,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.35096875,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.82284375,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.52284375,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.82534375,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.02784375000002,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.87971875,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.96721875,"end":138.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":138.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.70971875,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.76034375,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.31721875,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.78909375,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.90721875,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.40034375000002,"end":148.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.81784375,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.29034375,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.25221875,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.06221875,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.80034375,"end":157.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.59284375000001,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.54096875000002,"end":166.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.36784375000002,"end":167.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.40159375000002,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.78534375,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.13096875000002,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.09284375000001,"end":174.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.74221875,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.83034375,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.72034375,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.68221875,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.99409375000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.01096875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.97284375,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.00221875000003,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.12034375000002,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.42409375000003,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.30534375000002,"end":198.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.11346875,"end":203.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.21846875,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.59784375,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.70721875,"end":208.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.97284375,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.60971875,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.66034375,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.92534375000002,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.53284375,"end":218.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.37221875,"end":220.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.22846875000002,"end":225.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.78034375000001,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.53534375,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.20971875,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.36971875,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.08221875,"end":242.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.61721875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.68346875,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.50971875,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.36159375,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.87596875,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.14971875000003,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.96784375000004,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.43596875000003,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.03471875,"end":277.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.38909375000003,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.16909375,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.97221875,"end":297.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.97596875,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.49721875,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.64034375,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.51721875000004,"end":320.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.09034375000005,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.43971875,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.70534375,"end":328.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.27909375,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.82721875000004,"end":338.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.95721875000004,"end":344.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.20909375,"end":348.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.69784375,"end":351.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.27971875000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.94159375000004,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.59534375000004,"end":358.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.82721875000004,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.53596875,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.47659375,"end":364.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.34096875,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.32721875000004,"end":373.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.16221875,"end":378.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.38096875,"end":392.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.74596875000003,"end":399.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.26784375000005,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.63409375000003,"end":407.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.81534375,"end":407.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.30471875,"end":416.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.04596875000004,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.71159375,"end":440.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.27846875,"end":445.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.88534375,"end":449.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.49659375000005,"end":451.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.90971875,"end":455.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.21284375000005,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.19096875,"end":464.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.51096875,"end":465.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.64596875,"end":465.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.88221875000005,"end":465.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.96659375,"end":466.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.25346875,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.72596875000005,"end":470.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.26971875000004,"end":470.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.04596875000004,"end":476.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.49221875,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.62721875000005,"end":478.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.99409375000005,"end":482.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.61784375,"end":487.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.08971875000003,"end":489.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.57471875000005,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.03034375000004,"end":490.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.73909375000005,"end":490.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.75596875,"end":490.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.05971875000006,"end":493.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.47284375000004,"end":500.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.05409375000005,"end":501.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.60221875,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.02784375000005,"end":506.21346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.20471875000004,"end":508.74471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.33534375000005,"end":511.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.63034375,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.97596875,"end":521.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.46909375,"end":517.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.8059687500001,"end":527.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.4040937500001,"end":529.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.1297187499999,"end":529.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.16346875,"end":529.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.2478437500001,"end":529.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.5515937499999,"end":529.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.58534375,"end":529.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.72034375,"end":529.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.7709687500001,"end":530.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.00721875,"end":531.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.28971875,"end":532.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.3359687500001,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.14909375,"end":543.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.8740937499999,"end":549.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.5947187500001,"end":551.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.0334687500001,"end":551.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.84346875,"end":556.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.8259687500001,"end":556.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.75409375,"end":556.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.9397187500001,"end":557.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.2434687500001,"end":557.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.41221875,"end":557.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.42909375,"end":557.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.4797187500001,"end":557.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.15471875,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.17159375,"end":559.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.59346875,"end":559.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.5047187499999,"end":560.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.1459687500001,"end":560.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1628437500001,"end":560.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.1965937500001,"end":564.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.29721875,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.02534375,"end":576.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.0422187500001,"end":576.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.3628437500001,"end":577.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.96596875,"end":579.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.53096875,"end":591.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.9340937500001,"end":598.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.92471875,"end":604.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.54409375,"end":606.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.5522187500001,"end":606.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.46346875,"end":607.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.48034375,"end":614.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.3147187500001,"end":616.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.18784375,"end":616.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.1328437500001,"end":617.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.9765937500001,"end":627.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.3928437500001,"end":631.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.96159375,"end":634.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.6997187500001,"end":647.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.7822187500001,"end":649.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.69346875,"end":647.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.7522187500001,"end":649.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.7859687499999,"end":649.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.80284375,"end":649.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.97159375,"end":650.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.68034375,"end":650.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.7140937500001,"end":650.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.7309687500001,"end":650.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.8828437500001,"end":651.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.93346875,"end":651.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.4522187499999,"end":664.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.8190937500001,"end":654.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.03846875,"end":654.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.00034375,"end":656.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.9072187500001,"end":658.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.8603437500001,"end":660.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.38346875,"end":660.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.50159375,"end":660.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.9734687499999,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.0359687499999,"end":678.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.20346875,"end":678.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.06409375,"end":686.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.7422187500001,"end":693.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.7453437500001,"end":693.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.1840937500001,"end":709.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.3672187500001,"end":711.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.2234687499999,"end":715.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.01596875,"end":722.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.5678437500001,"end":723.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.66471875,"end":723.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.37346875,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.9640937500001,"end":735.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.89909375,"end":765.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.50596875,"end":771.20159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":29.226,"text":"委員主席有請部長還有司法蔡部長、副秘書長請上台委員好"},{"start":30.563,"end":43.716,"text":"想請教部長為什麼我們要有偵查不公開是為了要貫徹地碼保障被告受審判的權利並且避免輿論未審先判 對不對"},{"start":44.965,"end":72.968,"text":"這是其中之一當然也要保證未來的偵查能夠更順暢怕有一些洩密影響到未來的偵查所以完全都變成是那我再想請教您我們照這個刑事訴訟法第245條偵查不公開之 是請問違反的法律責任是什麼如果我們的檢察官違反偵查不公開的法律責任是什麼那可能涉及到洩密的問題"},{"start":74.614,"end":98.066,"text":"刑法132條嘛 對不對有關於公務人員：羅智強我講刑事責任的部分刑事責任的部分有可能泄密的罪嫌有可能嘛 對不對就是刑法132條然後有三年以下有期徒刑第一項嘛過失犯的話是一年以下有期徒刑那我想請教一下到目前為止"},{"start":99.887,"end":126.682,"text":"我們法務部我們在我看報告當中有講說每年度七月度一針對我們的偵查不公開的一個檢討情形要來去揭露那到目前為止我們就以去年為例好了請問偵查不公開你們檢討多少件數討論件數多少為依偵查不公開作業辦法公開或揭露之件數及查辦件數來處分人數"},{"start":127.864,"end":155.892,"text":"多少每半年要公布一次的我現在是112年的下半年我們總共檢討了1672件那請問多少件大概可有違反之餘的有94件那查辦了有50件那結果如何現在還沒有出來結果如何沒有出來啊是一年啊不是半年半年是到12月底我講的是我講的是那從我們從開始"},{"start":158.203,"end":183.786,"text":"檢討偵查不公開我剛剛看我們審判會委員講啊7000件367件成立15個人那他是從108年啊好 那我就從108年開始算好 那我委員需要資料我會再提供那我想請問那處分15人是什麼身份就是偵查不公開還是警察都有都有 多少檢察官"},{"start":184.982,"end":213.975,"text":"呃 我現在手邊沒有資料 我們了解以後跟委員說明我要特別講 就今天您的報告當中齁您的檢討裡面也完全沒有附加任何的數字上來那問到所有東西你都是要回去提供給我我也希望你那我再想請教你下一個問題喔剛剛我們已經談論到了今天違反偵查不公開是有刑事責任的對不對有可能啦 要看整個案情的如何這聲音是有出去嗎 出去對不對"},{"start":217.615,"end":236.913,"text":"我想請教您到現在為止照省委員講7000件的討論367件的成立我想請問您最後我們臺北地檢署我們的檢察官、檢察機關起訴案件有多少按照所謂的刑法132條"},{"start":239.167,"end":267.184,"text":"起訴案件多少我要來瞭解看看瞭解多少能不能請我們的這個我覺得法務部部長你應該要瞭解吧如果你檢察官有人因此被起訴你總會知道吧當然因為各地每一個他的數字不同嘛我們還要經過統計我直接告訴部長啦你們現在所有行政懲處基本上積極警告積極申戒你覺得真的有約束力嗎"},{"start":268.968,"end":270.849,"text":"我分享一個個人的親身經歷我也曾經被檢察官傳訊過"},{"start":298.052,"end":326.344,"text":"我還記得傳訊以後檢察官最後結束的時候告訴我說羅先生請你出去不要對外來去說任何有關案情的事情我說好沒問題可是不到一個禮拜我在接受詢問的內容全部週刊全部寫出來了我想請問一下我們的部長是我告訴媒體的嗎去告訴一些對我可能不利的一些消息面"},{"start":327.495,"end":353.681,"text":"是我告訴媒體的嗎我相信委員應該不會嘛那我只有跟檢察官講啊檢察官也有可能旁邊還有其他人那就是問題來了今天我直接告訴大家偵查不公開所有的規定跟所有的罰則簡直形同劇文嘛我們再講一個具體的例子齁你總知道馬總統的那個被起訴的案件嘛 對不對"},{"start":355.987,"end":370.635,"text":"我想請問你 你知道這個偵查不公開如果反映在個案上 監察院曾經對於這個北檢偵辦馬英九三中案提出所謂的調查報告2019年12月18號 有看過這個報告嗎我告訴你報告的內容 我來跟你講我們偵查不公開出了什麼問題"},{"start":379.411,"end":397.258,"text":"他認為媒體大幅報導公開照片相關錄音帶等等都已經違反了刑事訴訟法245條偵查不公開的規定嚴重侵犯人權你覺得監察院的調查報告對於我們今天檢察機關這樣的指責你覺得是對的嗎"},{"start":402.255,"end":421.514,"text":"檢察院他當然有他的職責：他的角度、看法然後我再跟你講 調查報告講齁當時馬英九告發北檢檢察長邢太昭跟主任檢察官王興建涉洩密後然後北檢齁就是傳訊新新聞、自由時報、淨州刊三位撰文記者"},{"start":422.395,"end":444.88,"text":"他們都稱檢查的主任檢察官、三中案承辦檢察官都沒有對其透露偵查中的資料然後調閱通聯記錄．也沒有發現所謂跟馬英九跟多名被告相關人事聯繫就此就認定說檢方沒有洩密就牽結了就這樣就認定了調查報告也認為說你這樣做法實質上"},{"start":445.973,"end":446.694,"text":"就是落實執行的程度如何?我跟部長說"},{"start":471.169,"end":487.084,"text":"事實上你可以從所有的重大案件包括從楊文科也好 對不對非常厲害啊今天楊文科的案情是誰把他全部揭露的是你們法務部召開記者會公告天下的嗎 是嗎"},{"start":488.131,"end":505.779,"text":"不是啊不是啊這是誰報導的啊據姓名義的報導那個是陳辦的檢察署他因為外界的質疑或是外界要了解他做適度的說明嘛他做適度的說明請問他是不是在因為媒體報導之後他才出來說明是不是"},{"start":509.546,"end":526.058,"text":"有可能媒體去詢問嘛媒體去詢問你就可以說明了就可以開始去帶風向了嗎是這個意思嗎那偵查不公開到底是規範什麼的啊我再講下一個例子啦我講就是今天偵查不公開規範的那個客體是誰規範對象是誰"},{"start":528.427,"end":549.527,"text":"就是辦案的人員嘛辦案的人員嘛 對不對那我想請教你 台權會問這個內政部2300萬的我們的全台灣人民的資料被洩漏結果內政部一推256 你知道他的藉口是什麼嗎他不肯交代所有 不肯做政府公開透明的訊息他理由藉口是什麼"},{"start":550.646,"end":579.731,"text":"市長你知道嗎因為很多機關都是用這個理由啦偵查不公開那我就想請教你法務部有沒有要求內政部必須用偵查不公開做理由來不公開他該公開的資訊有沒有是啊 很多案子也是都沒有經過懲辦單位有告訴他你不能公開才不公開他們自己就不想公開就說這個是偵查不公開我覺得非常好我覺得部長今天這個反應我覺得非常好"},{"start":580.592,"end":606.374,"text":"今天偵查不公開實際上某種程度已經變成行政機關遮掩政府透明資訊甚至敷衍立法院該有的所謂監督的一個藉口了那將來遇到行政機關講偵查不公開我覺得真的就直接來問法務部的意見了偵查不公開可不可以作為說今天隱匿政府重要資訊的一個藉口跟理由就讓法務部來判斷你覺得如何呢"},{"start":607.523,"end":631.137,"text":"我們的立場是對於偵查刑事案件的內容在偵查當中的時候是不能對外的那辦案人員不能對外但是今天我就問行政機關對於立法院的監督對於社會大眾要求的一些公開透明的資訊就拿台權會執意的這案子來看的話你從哪邊基礎資料基礎資訊難道政府沒有公開的義務嗎不過如果"},{"start":634.958,"end":635.719,"text":"你剛剛都講過偵查不公開規範的是辦案人員"},{"start":655.047,"end":677.815,"text":"行事訴訟法規定辦案人員啊作業辦法是法律嗎當然在法律之下你應該起碼如果你今天要規範到說行政院行政官員都要偵查不公開的話你就寫到法律裡面去啊不是嗎不過牽涉到刑事案件的偵查當然他也有不公開的責任我要特別講的是什麼"},{"start":679.113,"end":685.489,"text":"今天很多的案件現在的行政官員就是一去偵查不公開就全部推給法務部啦推給檢查機關啦"},{"start":686.789,"end":711.244,"text":"要看案情的內容啦如果跟涉及到偵查犯罪當然是不能最後我再問你一句話我們在2022年5月9號秦泰昭上任交接典禮的時候他突然說山中案在高等法院審理當中若干人士希望藉由各種途徑來影響二審判決我想請問你秦泰昭檢查總長適合談論個案嗎"},{"start":717.709,"end":734.907,"text":"那看有沒有符合我們偵查不公開的作業辦法我要特別講今天整個法制上偵查不公開不管從你處分人數今天有沒有按照刑法所謂的起訴的人數包括你處分的輕重根本就形同劇文"},{"start":735.968,"end":755.339,"text":"然後所有的案件到最後就是今天檢查機關你高興要洩露給媒體獨家報的都出來了然後就跟大家講說媒體很厲害因為沒有懲罰也沒有約制啦那這一點我也希望我們將來也是司法法制委員會要來討論這件事情偵查不公開到底範圍跟界限跟保障的密度跟強度"},{"start":755.999,"end":765.931,"text":"不能變成是今天我今天檢查機關我愛公開就公開就獨家了我不愛公開就變成讓政府單位來規避今天監督的一個藉口以上 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員"}]}},{"id":"149961","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149961","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5e19851042158dbc5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a6a602a2cfbf58b3ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:15:28 - 10:25:09","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":581,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:25:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:15:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時15分）好，謝謝主席。有請林次長、程署長。"],["主席：請次長、陳署長。"],["程署長家平：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：署長，其實今天我看到好多委員都在幫你們叫屈，我本來想說終於升署了，其實旁邊的次長之前也認為民航要升署，你們兩個搶來搶去，對不對？次長，你有跟我complain，如果是這樣的話，我看現在沒升也好。但是我覺得委員幫大家叫屈的原因是，因為升署了，大家對你有很多期待，包括不光是委員，我相信所有我們的國民對氣象署從局變署一定有一些期待，你們自己內部升署了，你們要做的事情，不管是更專業、更多樣及要怎樣跟上，其實現在我們的氣象署在全世界的水平，那天跟你聊過，算還是不錯的，但怎麼樣再精進？所以我們真的是希望，次長在這裡，部長今天不敢來是不是？怕我們要預算是嗎？"],["林次長國顯：部長另有要公，不好意思。"],["魯委員明哲：氣象署回去後，真的，在明年的人力和經費上，我認為都要增加，為什麼呢？交通部這麼大，其實你每一個局大概每一天出去要做什麼事、今天可不可以施工都跟氣象有關……"],["林次長國顯：都跟氣象有關，確實。"],["魯委員明哲：這幾天我們特別看到了，像世界經濟論壇WEF，大家幾乎每年都開會，有很多的課題，其中有一個課題就是未來10年全球十大風險，我們看的是十大風險，去年也有、今年也有，前三名差不多都跟氣候有關，包括了極端氣候事件、地球系統發生重大變化、還有生物多樣性的喪失，還有生態系統的崩潰，其實我發覺很多來源是氣象，這個都很重要。所以我覺得有時候人定勝天，在氣象這部分大概勝的不多，但是我們要怎麼樣去預測、怎麼樣去預防，這個部分我想中央氣象局升署之後，應該帶給大家更多的期待。署長，未來10年全球十大風險，你覺得我們氣象署可以做哪些方面？"],["程署長家平：是，其實有兩大方向，一大方向是有關氣候變遷的因應，怎麼樣來協助我們的國家、我們的政府和社會來面對氣候變遷，掌握氣候變遷相關的風險。氣候變遷其實也帶來機會，所以這個部分如果能掌握的話，其實也可以創造效益，這是有關氣候變遷的部分。另外一件事情就是災害天氣，災害天氣的預報，因為臺灣的地形的確非常複雜，所以災害天氣預報的解析度、精度會需要持續的增加，這也是氣象署在未來10年工作裡面非常非常重要的一件事情。我們在去年完成了高速電腦的建設之後，我們可以把我們的預測模式在全球的部分能夠進到13公里、區域的部分進到1公里。未來在10年之內，我們的計畫，剛剛其實有報告我們新提出來的計畫，在未來會讓我們的模式進入到次公里級，這就必須讓我們的觀測系統和我們的預報系統都能夠同時來增進，它才能夠進入到次公里級。"],["魯委員明哲：署長，算力現在是國力重要的一部分，世界各國都在拼，你現在有最新的機器進來了，算力增加，但是有關專業能力，因為投進去的參數還是要靠人，所以在區域──每個區域都不太一樣，我們希望能夠在你的專業能力加上你的算力整個提升，讓我們中央氣象局升署能夠實際展現，就如同你剛剛所說的，區域範圍縮小、精確度增加，讓民眾能夠感受到。我們也特別看到，早年那個氣象感覺就是每天要不要打傘，衣服要多穿一件還是少穿一件，但是現在的氣象遠遠超過當時的想像，現在不管是企業的安全、社會的安定、甚至國家的安全，我覺得都跟氣象有關，這個部分我有看到，台積電自己的企業評估，因為它是世界級的工廠、公司，因為各區塊它要投資的時候，它都有非常精確、詳細的災損評估跟氣候相關的報告，這一切的來源都是我們氣象單位提供專業、精準的基礎數據，這個很重要，你們提供基礎的數據、專業的數據讓很多的產業能夠運用，所以在企業的安全、企業的投資，包括工程單位，有太多單位需要你們專業、精準的這個基礎數據。所以你剛剛在說，未來有這樣的署之後，有這樣的設備加能力，對於這些基礎資料的專業度，你有沒有信心能夠持續地提升？"],["程署長家平：是，這些設備和技術的發展對我們非常非常重要，除了感謝過去交通部對我們的支持之外，國科會對我們也非常地支持，特別在氣候變遷這個議題上面，我們跟國科會有一個叫 TCCIP的計畫在合作，提供臺灣氣候變遷在過去、現在和未來的相關狀態，並且做氣候風險的相關評估，這個部分也在我們的氣候變遷因應法第三章裡面有特別規範相關的工作，所以這個部分會持續進行。有關TCFD的部分是我國金管會推動我們綠色金融裡面一個非常非常重要的部分，目前全球都非常非常注意有關 TCFD的運用，因為它是氣候風險的財務揭露，目前我們金管會規定20億以上的公司一定要提出TCFD的報告，未來可能會再進一步降低這個標準。"],["魯委員明哲：好，署長，所以我剛剛講的是經費要提升，至於專業能力，如果人力不夠的話，我是覺得交通部跟行政院都要支持。接下來，剩下1分鐘，我想請教一下次長，3月3號我們桃園機場因為南跑道歲修造成很大的困擾。當天王國材部長說兩週內要檢討懲處，該賠償就賠償。我算了一下，兩週到了，目前你們怎麼處理？有沒有懲處？有沒有賠償？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我們上禮拜都一直在討論，過去2天假日，桃機公司跟民航局還有我們部裡也一直在就這件事情進行相關檢討。"],["魯委員明哲：所以懲處名單出來沒有？"],["林次長國顯：已經有建議，目前還要再做綜合考慮。"],["魯委員明哲：賠償問題呢？"],["林次長國顯：賠償基本上……"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有進行評估？"],["林次長國顯：現在是桃機公司直接跟航空公司要求，請他們就旅客所反映的部分先蒐集，那這部分您知道一般還有旅客不便險跟航空公司運送契約，他們會先去處理。第二個，航空公司跟機場之間的部分，我們另外會跟機場……"],["魯委員明哲：我今天本來要問王國材部長本人，你代答，反正也不太準，其實那天我們針對這個問題有去桃機公司嘛。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：我們也上了塔臺，專業人員那天特別有跟我們報告說，其實總量的管制比當天流量的管制……"],["林次長國顯：沒有錯。"],["魯委員明哲：塔臺，你飛機要進來，流量怎麼控制，一架一架怎麼讓它在安全的距離能夠起降，但是你總量如果沒有管制的話，它根本消耗不了，所以總量的管制，我是覺得你們絕對要提前好幾個月就公布這個飛航公告說要修繕什麼。"],["林次長國顯：是，非常謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：這樣航空公司才能夠在第一階段還沒有收到客戶的時候能夠減班，這個部分你們到底有沒有去做？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員簡要說明，整個的計畫跟一般輸運一樣，航空或者是任何計畫都一樣，計畫性的作為應該要把各種可能的方案都提出來，相關的方案對營運的影響、對航空公司、對旅客的影響要評估出來，評估完以後協調相關單位配合，可以執行，再回饋到施工計畫來決定，這個部分我們認為有需要檢討跟改善的空間。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這樣啦，我的時間到了，麻煩你提供一個書面，到底未來怎麼解決的這個方案，給我們交通委員會每一位委員，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是，我們20號會提出來，也會提前給委員。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請何欣純委員發言。","何欣純委員發言完畢之後，我們進行臨時提案的處理，並於林沛祥委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。","現在請何委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.89346875,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.78721875,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.554718750000003,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.21534375,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.00409375,"end":45.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.64409375,"end":60.477218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.713468750000004,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.51909375,"end":66.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.58596875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.59784375000001,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.16721875,"end":73.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.96034375,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.29784375,"end":77.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.53784375000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.11096875000001,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.00534375000001,"end":84.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.18221875,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.06721875000001,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.26971875000001,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.31159375,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":98.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.28534375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.58034375000001,"end":103.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.71096875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.92596875000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.61346875000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.50346875000001,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.91159375000001,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.67659375,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.93784375,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.06409375,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.48534375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.63909375,"end":159.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.12409375000001,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.19971875000002,"end":162.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.23346875000001,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":236.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.44971875000002,"end":237.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.74909375000001,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.76159375,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.53346875000003,"end":243.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.27971875000003,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.68034375000002,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.64596875,"end":252.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.39659375000002,"end":274.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.02596875,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.34971875,"end":284.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.61096875000004,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.47971875,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.33596875,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.60159375,"end":295.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.63034375,"end":301.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.51534375,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.20284375,"end":307.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.59471875,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.54784375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.02284375000005,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.28409375,"end":411.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.30034375,"end":410.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.32971875000004,"end":422.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.91846875000005,"end":423.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.44159375000004,"end":427.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.50846875,"end":432.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.55409375000005,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.66784375000003,"end":434.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.56221875000006,"end":435.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.86159375000005,"end":436.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.21159375,"end":439.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.59096875,"end":440.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.04221875,"end":442.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.32471875000005,"end":443.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.69159375000004,"end":448.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.01596875,"end":448.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.33221875000004,"end":455.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.65596875000006,"end":461.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.55409375000005,"end":461.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.66346875000005,"end":466.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.38846875,"end":467.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.02534375000005,"end":478.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.86909375000005,"end":469.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.47096875000005,"end":484.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.79909375000005,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.03471875,"end":493.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.54034375000003,"end":499.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.83096875,"end":497.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.53096875000006,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.68971875000005,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.39346875,"end":515.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.25409375,"end":519.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.4265937499999,"end":519.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.71346875,"end":525.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.51846875,"end":537.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.88784375,"end":538.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.90471875,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.26284375,"end":550.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.79721875,"end":551.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.84346875,"end":560.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.5847187500001,"end":561.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.1540937500001,"end":564.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.9553437500001,"end":569.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7565937500001,"end":568.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.41471875,"end":577.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.9922187500001,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.97471875,"end":577.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.39221875,"end":577.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.69596875,"end":577.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.97846875,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.9740937500001,"end":580.9697187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.646,"end":7.793,"text":"好,謝謝主席有請我們林次長跟陳署長陳署長"},{"start":13.155,"end":13.175,"text":"委員長"},{"start":37.063,"end":60.148,"text":"委員幫大家叫屈的原因是說因為申署了大家對你有很多的期待包括不光是委員所有的我相信我們的國民對我們氣象署從局面署一定有一些期待你們自己內部也申署了你們要做的事情不管是更專業、更多樣怎麼樣跟上我們其實我們現在在我們的氣象署"},{"start":60.808,"end":83.739,"text":"在全世界的水平那天跟你聊過算還是不錯的但怎麼樣再精進所以我們真的是希望社長在這裡部長今天不敢來是怕我們要預算這樣回去氣象署真的在明年人力跟經費我認為都要增加為什麼呢交通部這麼大"},{"start":85.262,"end":85.442,"text":"世界經濟論壇"},{"start":100.213,"end":100.333,"text":"主席"},{"start":115.979,"end":142.178,"text":"有關包括了極端氣候事件地球系統發生重大變化還有生物多樣性的喪失還有我們生態系統的崩潰其實我發覺跟我們很多來源自在氣象這個都很重要所以我覺得有時候人定勝天在氣象這個部分有時候大概勝的不多但是我們要怎麼樣去預測"},{"start":143.559,"end":163.752,"text":"怎麼樣去預防這個部分我想中央氣象局申訴之後應該帶給大家更多的一個期待我想署長,未來十年全球十大風險你覺得我們氣象署可以做哪些方面?"},{"start":165.649,"end":187.656,"text":"其實有兩大方向一大方向是有關氣候變遷的因應怎麼樣來協助我們的國家我們的政府和社會來面對氣候變遷掌握氣候變遷的相關的風險那其實氣候變遷其實也帶來機會所以這個部分如果能掌握的話它其實也可以創造效益這是有關氣候變遷的部分另外一件事情就是災害天氣"},{"start":188.796,"end":204.531,"text":"災害天氣的預報因為臺灣的地形的確非常的複雜所以災害天氣的預報它的解析度、精度會需要持續的增加那這也是在氣象署在未來10年工作裡面非常非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":205.071,"end":227.18,"text":"那我們在去年完成了我們的高速電腦的建設之後那我們可以把我們的這個預測模式能夠全球的部分進到13公里區域的部分進到1公里我們未來在10年之內的我們的計畫就是剛剛其實有報告我們新提出來計畫在未來會讓我們的模式進入到次公里級"},{"start":228.14,"end":228.28,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":248.544,"end":274.171,"text":"這個機器進來了齁算力增加但是專業能力啊因為投進去的參數還是要靠人所以我們也希望在區域每個區域都不太一樣所以我們希望能夠在你的專業能力加上你算力整個提升讓我們中央氣象局深屬的能夠實際展現就如同你剛剛所說的區域範圍縮小精確度增加讓民眾能夠感受到那我們也特別看到齁"},{"start":275.311,"end":294.731,"text":"以前真的在早年那個氣象就感覺每天要不要打傘衣服要多穿一件還是少穿一件但是現在的氣象遠遠超過當時的想像現在不管是企業的安全、社會的安定甚至國家的安全我覺得都跟氣象有關"},{"start":296.012,"end":311.18,"text":"這個部分我也看到在台積電他自己的企業評估因為他是世界級的工廠公司所以各區塊他投資的時候他都有非常這個精確、詳細的他相關的他災損評估跟氣候相關的這樣的一個報告"},{"start":314.702,"end":335.708,"text":"但這一切的來源都是我們氣象單位你提供專業精準的基礎數據這個很重要你們基礎的數據專業的數據提供很多的產業能夠運用所以在企業的一個安全企業的投資包括工程單位太多單位要你們專業精準的這個基礎"},{"start":337.728,"end":360.817,"text":"所以你剛剛在說在未來有這樣的申訴之後有這樣的設備加能力你覺得對於我們更專業這些基礎的資料你有沒有信心能夠持續的提升是這些設備和技術的發展對我們非常非常重要也感謝過去除了交通部在對我們的支持之外國科會對我們也非常的支持"},{"start":361.377,"end":387.274,"text":"所以在特別在在氣候變遷這個議題上面我們是跟國科會的有一個叫TCCIP的計畫在合作提供臺灣有關氣候變遷從過去現在和未來的相關的狀態並且做氣候風險的相關的評估那這個部分也在我們的氣候變遷因應法裡面第三章特別有在規範相關的工作所以這個部分會持續進行那有關TCFD的部分"},{"start":387.654,"end":388.054,"text":"所以我剛剛講的是說經費要"},{"start":413.09,"end":432.675,"text":"提升了專業能力如果能力不夠的話我是覺得交通部跟行政院都要支持接下來剩下一分鐘我想請教一下次長那個3月3號我們這個桃園機場這個發生了因為難跑到稅休嘛造成很大的一個困擾"},{"start":434.876,"end":460.827,"text":"當天的王國哉部長說兩週內檢討懲處該賠償就賠償算一下兩週到現在目前你們怎麼處理有沒有懲處有沒有賠償我們大概上禮拜都一直在討論這過去兩天夏日豪氣公司跟民安局還有我們部裡也一直在就這件事情所以懲處名單出來沒有"},{"start":462.027,"end":477.696,"text":"已經有建議那目前還要再做綜合考慮那賠償問題呢賠償基本上是我們現在是淘氣公司直接跟航空公司要求說請他們就旅客所反映的部分先收集"},{"start":478.536,"end":483.081,"text":"昨天本來要問王國材部長本人那你代答反正也不太準那其實那天我們去針對這個問題我們去淘汰公司我們也上了塔台"},{"start":499.977,"end":524.357,"text":"我們知道專業委員他那天特別有跟我們報告說其實總量的管制比當天流量的管制你要進來流量怎麼控制一台一台怎麼在安全的距離能夠起降但是你總量如果沒有管制的話它根本消耗不了所以總量的管制我是覺得你們絕對要提前好幾個月"},{"start":525.558,"end":525.938,"text":"跟委員做個簡要說明"},{"start":541.323,"end":541.343,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":557.924,"end":558.244,"text":"魯委員發言完"}]}},{"id":"149960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a37aaf640d614f5bd5d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a65b767c2395158be65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:04:58 - 10:15:15","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":617,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:15:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:04:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時5分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部林國顯次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員俊憲：中央氣象署程署長。"],["主席：程署長。"],["林次長國顯：林委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。兩位，大家都知道現在政府要推動農業保險，希望能夠保障農民，保護農民不要再看天吃飯。農業保險牽扯到第一個氣象預報就非常重要，因為農業保險裡面有一項就是氣象參數型的保險，必須要參照政府公告的氣象資料，例如農民跟保險公司在這個契約約定雨量高於多少，保險公司就要做理賠，所以現在政府在推動農業保險有一個很重要的事先工作，就是農業氣象站，而且儘量不要有死角，否則會發生實際上有農業損失，但是由於約定的氣象站沒有數字，或者是數字沒有達到標準而無法理賠。","但是我看現在農業氣象站的覆蓋率非常地低，兩位看一下，108年開始設置農業氣象站50個，覆蓋率17.6%，我搞不懂109年到111年連續3年這個覆蓋率的數字連1個都沒有增加，為什麼那3年你都沒有去架設農業氣象站？再來看，到112年（去年）為止，全部的全國農作物專區氣象站覆蓋率只有25%，像我們臺南市是全國最大的農業區，全國農作區面積最大的地方就在臺南，臺南的氣象站覆蓋率只有27%而已，請教一下，為什麼發生這樣子的事情？覆蓋率為什麼那麼低？"],["程署長家平：過去的覆蓋率的確非常低，所以這件事情我們已經在去年跟當時的農委會、現在的農業部簽訂了一個3年的合作計畫，希望讓我們的農業，特別是在農業氣象站的覆蓋率能夠增加，因為臺灣整體的作區大概有將近300個，這個覆蓋率是怎麼計算的呢？這是依照農委會來訂的，在作區10公里的範圍之內如果有氣象站的話，可以接受這個是在氣象站的觀測範圍、監測範圍之內；如果是超過的話就沒有。這個部分因為經過相當的討論，所以在這個部分……"],["林委員俊憲：你這個速度太慢了。"],["程署長家平：去年這個計畫就是要增加相關的測站。"],["林委員俊憲：署長、次長看一下，108年就開始推動了，做了五年多，覆蓋率是25%，四分之一而已，這樣農業保險怎麼推？"],["程署長家平：是，過去推動的速度的確比較慢，這個部分因為跟農委會合作……"],["林委員俊憲：我們希望你要加油，好不好？"],["程署長家平：在未來我們會再增加150站……"],["林委員俊憲：你趕快提出一個計畫來。"],["程署長家平：有，目前有一個跟農委會合作的計畫。"],["林委員俊憲：預計幾年？"],["程署長家平：3年之內……"],["林委員俊憲：百分之百？"],["程署長家平：3年之內我們會再增加150站，所以至少會到75%。"],["林委員俊憲：好，基本上，還是希望你要達到百分之百，這樣才可以達到所謂依靠農業保險來保護我們農民，是不是這樣？"],["程署長家平：是，我們會繼續努力。"],["林委員俊憲：3年達到75%，那後續呢？你還是要再持續推動。"],["程署長家平：是，後續的部分我們用兩種方式，一個是增加測站……"],["林委員俊憲：另外，我們常常討論一個問題，就是除了中央氣象署或者我們授權的單位、機構以外，其實民間很多自己在做氣象預測，甚至公開發布，這樣的狀況不知道氣象署有沒有掌握？所謂的網路預言家，我給你看一個，現在有一個網紅，這個人在網路上很有名氣，他就預測3月19日因為南高屏的板塊下陷，引發花東地區山路坍方，雖然不會有大地震，但是可能造成落石砸車，請提前防範。你知不知道網路上有很多這樣氣象訊息的公布？"],["程署長家平：是，我們有注意到。"],["林委員俊憲：後來有沒有發生？這個網路預言家還自稱他可以事先預測地震，他說他可以知道地震什麼時候會發生。再來，他們這樣一公布，他完全沒有附上他的資料來源，這些人或這些單位也沒有得到中央氣象署的授權。我再舉一個例子，這裡有一個公告：「測試一下，雖然說好沒有颱風不發文的，明晚起天氣轉涼喔！」這樣到底有沒有算亂發布氣象預報？有還是沒有？網路上類似像這樣的，程度深淺不一啦！很多、一大堆啦！尤其像颱風季，到時候今年颱風季就會很熱鬧，颱風的時候，因為民眾會關心，所以每一個網紅或網路上甚至媒體預報都要越刺激、越聳動越好，所以只要有一個低氣壓出現，馬上就報了：「恐怕成為颱風」。每個颱風只要形成了，都是什麼穿心颱、西北颱等，都把颱風形容得非常可怕，中央氣象署要不要管這種狀況？這種管不管啦？"],["程署長家平：是，目前依照氣象法裡面的定義，對於預報作業這一件事情，它必須要根據科學觀測的基礎來做預報，如果是我們說的自己的感覺，這件事情其實在氣象法定義裡面不是預報，所以我們在法裡面，氣象法是沒有辦法管制的，這個部分……"],["林委員俊憲：是看你要不要管啦！不是不能管啦！像那種可以預測地震的，如果他真的可以預測地震，我也希望真的啦！我們就把他請過來就好了，是不是這樣？有事情就請教他就好了，你請他來中央氣象署，把他供養在那邊，每天問他會不會發生地震就好了，是不是？這樣可不可以？但有些人會鑽法律漏洞，他說：「未來三週可能會發生地震，大家要小心」，那我也會啊！"],["程署長家平：是，所以預報需要嚴謹的驗證。"],["林委員俊憲：我現在告訴你，未來3年臺灣會有地震，大家要注意，可不可以？這樣有違法嗎？中央氣象署在最近5年都沒有裁罰半件，108年到現在，網路上五花八門的氣象預報，但是上一次曾經裁罰是在107年，107年有一個預測地震被罰20萬，因為那個人講得太誇張了，你也曾經開罰過，你不是無法可管啦！我們的法律規範是怎樣，你知不知道？你講一下好不好？"],["程署長家平：好，目前的法律規範就像我剛剛講的，它是必須基於客觀的觀測資料來做的預測才是預測。另外一件事情──的確我們的宣導要加強，因為很多民眾對於什麼是傳播、什麼是預報這件事情沒有辦法清楚區隔。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有宣導啦！你要去管、你要抓幾件，真的開罰才有一些嚇阻作用啦。他們不是不能講，但是講得那麼誇張、那麼聳動，你的資料是哪裡來？你的根據是什麼？我們的法律規範是要有科學資料根據，其實最明確的就是，除了中央氣象署以及你們授權提供資料的機關或個人，不可以做氣象宣告，是不是？意思大概這樣子嘛？"],["程署長家平：從92年開始是可以允許的，可是他要標示他的資料出處，必須要明確的寫明，如果沒有明確寫明他的資料出處的話，這個部分……"],["林委員俊憲：網路一大堆，大家也沒有標示，你要不要管一下？"],["程署長家平：是……"],["林委員俊憲：而且我跟你講，這個都很多人在看，我剛剛講的可以預測地震的網紅，他有10萬個追蹤者、有10萬個人每天聽他預報氣象。"],["程署長家平：是，所以我們不斷呼籲請看官方的預報。"],["林委員俊憲：你們中央氣象署的網站1天可能不到200人看，人家是10萬，沒人要信你們，人家要信這個。你請這麼多人、每年花那麼多預算、買那麼多科學先進的設備，還輸給1位預言家，這還是要管一下啦！"],["程署長家平：報告委員，在災害天氣來的時候，我們氣象署相關管道的page view每一天大概是300到400萬。"],["林委員俊憲：對啦、對啦！這就是真的有發生事情，好嗎？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個不是無法可管，你要管啦，好不好？"],["程署長家平：這個我們來檢討加強。"],["林委員俊憲：你107年裁罰過，最近5年就不管了，所以現在越來越多，你注意看108年到112年從來沒有半件裁罰，所以現在這種言論才會如此氾濫，好不好？署長、次長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，林委員發言完畢。","現在請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.384718750000001,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.615343750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.745968750000003,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.27721875,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.10409375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.082218750000003,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.242218750000003,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.00471875,"end":40.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.61534375,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.69846875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.87096875,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.330343750000004,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.30846875,"end":63.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":71.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.93534375,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.28909375,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.17034375,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":98.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.04909375000001,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.60159375,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.49596875,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.71909375000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.92534375000001,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.27534375,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.89534375000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":116.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.70471875000001,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.07159375,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.21471875,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.44659375,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.55596875,"end":125.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.28909375,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.30159375,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.01409375,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.97159375,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.40596875,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.43971875,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.12909375,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.03596875000002,"end":189.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.60971875,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.07721875000001,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.93721875,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.20721875,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.22409375,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.24096875,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.21534375000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.04596875000001,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":204.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.82596875000002,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.22659375,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.20471875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.57534375,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.59221875,"end":215.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.60909375,"end":215.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.62596875000003,"end":215.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.89596875,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.94659375,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":217.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.98846875,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.43534375000002,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.83159375000002,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.27784375000002,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.39159375000003,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.29784375000003,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.38596875000002,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.11159375000003,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.22971875000002,"end":240.49971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.11034375000003,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.87346875000003,"end":253.12221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.78034375000001,"end":254.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.67471875,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.94409375000004,"end":261.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.04471875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.79534375000003,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.60096875,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.42221875,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.99534375,"end":284.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.29034375000003,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.10846875000004,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.46659375,"end":291.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.69846875,"end":292.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.52534375,"end":293.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.03534375000004,"end":298.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.92971875,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.24534375,"end":303.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.88221875,"end":304.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.81846875,"end":308.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.07971875000004,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.13846875,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.59346875,"end":318.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.81659375000004,"end":322.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.88346875,"end":326.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.27096875,"end":330.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.52346875,"end":331.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.00846875,"end":334.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.30346875000004,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.24409375000005,"end":337.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.96971875,"end":337.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.84721875,"end":344.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.12471875,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.57096875,"end":354.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.46909375,"end":361.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.88159375000004,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.52284375000005,"end":365.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.06659375000004,"end":368.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.71596875,"end":369.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.67346875000004,"end":374.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.17909375000005,"end":376.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.36034375,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.54534375000003,"end":382.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.75596875,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.07221875000005,"end":384.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.08909375,"end":384.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.24909375000004,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":408.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.72659375,"end":411.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.84846875000005,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.76784375000005,"end":417.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.72096875000005,"end":419.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.66159375,"end":420.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.70784375000005,"end":425.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.39471875000004,"end":426.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.05284375,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.10721875,"end":430.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.86659375000005,"end":431.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.30096875000004,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.52846875,"end":435.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.33409375,"end":438.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.84409375,"end":441.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.26596875,"end":441.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.02534375000005,"end":441.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.05909375000005,"end":444.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.93659375000004,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.77159375,"end":444.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.18471875,"end":448.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.70346875,"end":449.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.78346875000005,"end":450.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.11221875,"end":454.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.01471875000004,"end":458.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.62596875,"end":459.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.98846875000004,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.59159375,"end":463.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.57034375,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.35034375000004,"end":469.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.52284375000005,"end":472.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.20159375000003,"end":474.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.23096875000005,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.43721875000006,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.76159375000003,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":484.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.11971875,"end":502.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.72909375,"end":502.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.31096875000003,"end":503.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.34471875,"end":508.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.60971875,"end":509.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.41534375000003,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.82409375,"end":515.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.3047187500001,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.4397187500001,"end":516.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9665937500001,"end":519.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.9834687499999,"end":528.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.00034375,"end":520.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.6572187500001,"end":529.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.9228437500001,"end":530.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.73284375,"end":534.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.4409687500001,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.02596875,"end":545.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.6459687500001,"end":547.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.89471875,"end":555.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.58534375,"end":559.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.7747187500001,"end":566.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.60534375,"end":565.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.3515937500001,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.7309687500001,"end":576.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.70034375,"end":576.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.12221875,"end":577.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.8815937500001,"end":577.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.53971875,"end":578.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.7084687500001,"end":579.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.7253437500001,"end":579.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.10909375,"end":588.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.24284375,"end":588.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.66471875,"end":589.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.23846875,"end":590.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.03159375,"end":590.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.9765937500001,"end":591.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.06096875,"end":591.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.1284687500001,"end":591.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.5165937500001,"end":591.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.7022187499999,"end":591.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.71909375,"end":591.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.87096875,"end":591.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.92159375,"end":591.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9722187500001,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.02284375,"end":592.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.0734687500001,"end":592.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.1240937499999,"end":592.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6809687500001,"end":592.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.76534375,"end":593.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.55846875,"end":595.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.49471875,"end":605.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.36659375,"end":613.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.7834687500001,"end":615.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.0022187500001,"end":616.4240937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.776,"end":9.518,"text":"謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部林國賢次長請次長東央氣象署陳署長兩位很早次長好兩位喔大家都知道我們現在政府要推動農業保險希望能夠保障農民"},{"start":25.305,"end":49.72,"text":"不要再保護農民不要再看天吃飯那農業保險牽扯到第一個氣象預報就非常重要了因為農業保險裡面它有一項就是氣象參數型的保險就你必須要參照政府公告的氣象資料例如你雨量高於多少農民跟保險公司在這個契約約定那麼保險公司就要做理賠"},{"start":51.095,"end":76.929,"text":"所以現在政府在推動農業保險有一個很重要的事先工作就是農業氣象戰而且不能有死角盡量不要有死角否則會發生實際上有農業損失但是由於約定的氣象戰沒有數字或者是數字沒有達到標準而無法理賠所以這個農業氣象戰的覆蓋率"},{"start":79.367,"end":87.474,"text":"現在我看非常的低兩位看一下我們開始108年設置農業的氣象站當時是50個覆蓋率17.6%其中我搞不懂109年到110年連續3年這個數字一個都沒有增加你為什麼那3年都沒有去架設那個農業氣象站"},{"start":105.762,"end":129.279,"text":"再來看到112年到去年為止全部的全國農作物專區的氣象戰覆蓋率只有25%像台南市我們台南市是全國最大的農業區就全國農作區面積最大就在台南了台南的氣象戰覆蓋率才27%而已來我請教一下"},{"start":135.111,"end":147.443,"text":"為什麼發生這樣的事情?覆蓋率為什麼那麼低?這的確是在過去的覆蓋率的確非常低所以這件事情我們已經在去年跟農委會當時農委會現在農業部簽訂了一個三年的合作計畫希望能夠讓我們的農業特別是在農業氣象站的這個覆蓋率能夠增加"},{"start":155.39,"end":173.605,"text":"因為我們整體臺灣的作區大概有將近300個作區那這個覆蓋率是怎麼計算的呢這是依照農委會來定在作區10公里的範圍之內如果有氣象站的話他是可以接受說這個是在他這個氣象站的觀測範圍監測範圍之內那如果是超過的話就沒有所以在這個部分因為經過相當的討論所以在這個部分在去年的就是要增加"},{"start":184.674,"end":204.581,"text":"相關的策戰來來來給車長看一下108年就開始推動了這五檔啊這五檔的話覆蓋率百分之二十五四分之一而已啊那你這樣農業保險怎麼推是過去推動速度的確比較慢所以這個部分因為跟公衛會合作在未來我們會再增加你趕快提出一個計畫來"},{"start":206.28,"end":226.782,"text":"有目前有一個計畫跟農委會合作計畫那預計幾年3年之內我們會再增加150站所以至少會到75%再來基本上你還是要希望達到百分之百這樣你才可以達到所謂的依靠農業保險來保護我們農民是不是這樣"},{"start":229.752,"end":255.849,"text":"你3年達到75%那後續呢?你還是要再持續推動啦?是,後續的部分我們用兩種方式一個是增加策略好另外再來齁先我們常常討論一個問題就是說那民間除了我們中央氣象署或者我們授權的單位機構以外啊所以民間很多在自己做氣象預測甚至公開發布啊"},{"start":259.148,"end":285.344,"text":"這樣的狀況 我不知道我們氣象署有沒有掌握這所謂的網路預言家 我給你看一個現在有一個網紅 這個人在網路上很有名氣他就預測3月19日 因為南高屏的板塊下陷花東地區山路塔方 雖然不會有大地震但是可能造成落石雜車 請提前防範"},{"start":287.148,"end":314.253,"text":"你知道網絡上很多這樣的一個借槍訊息的公布嗎?是,我們有注意到那後來有沒有發生?這個案這網路預言家他還自稱他可以事先預測地震他說他可以知道地震什麼時候會發生再來3月19日是在他們這樣的一個公布啦他完全沒有附上他的資料來源"},{"start":315.666,"end":343.986,"text":"那這些人或這些單位也沒有得到中央氣象署的授權我再舉一個例子這裡有一個他公報測試一下雖然說沒有颱風不發文但明天天氣轉涼這樣這樣到底有沒有算亂發布氣象預報有還是沒有網路上類似像這樣的程度深淺不一啦很多啦一大堆啦"},{"start":345.202,"end":369.205,"text":"那尤其像颱風,現在颱風季到時候今年颱風季就會很熱鬧有些明年颱風的時候因為民眾會關心所以每一個網紅或網路上的甚至媒體它預報的都要越刺激越聳動越好所以只要有一個低氣壓出現馬上就爆了恐怕成為颱風"},{"start":370.874,"end":378.559,"text":"每個颱風只要形成了 都是什麼穿心台、西北台 什麼很可怕 都把颱風形容得非常可怕 中央氣象署要不要管這種狀況 管不管啊"},{"start":386.317,"end":413.245,"text":"是目前依照氣象法裡面的定義就是對於預報作業的這一件事情他必須要根據科學觀測的基礎來做預報如果他是我們講說他自己的感覺這件事情其實在氣象法定義裡面這不是預報所以我們在法裡面氣象法是沒有辦法管制的那這個部分是看你要不要管不是不能管像那個他可以預測地震的"},{"start":414.81,"end":438.013,"text":"如果他真的可以預測地震,我也希望真的啦。那我們就把他請過來就好了。是不是這樣?有事情我們就請他就好了。你請他來中央氣象署,你給他供養在那邊。會不會發生地震,每天問他就好了。是不是?這樣可不可以嗎?但是有些人他會裝法律漏洞。他說未來3週可能會發生地震,大家要小心。"},{"start":440.344,"end":465.436,"text":"那我也會啊我現在就可以告訴你未來3年台灣會有地震大家要注意可不可以這樣是違法的同樣氣象署在最近5年都沒有裁判判鑑108年到現在網路上無法發明的的那種氣象預報但是在上一次曾經裁判是在107年"},{"start":467.383,"end":472.167,"text":"一百零七年有一個預測地震被罰二十萬因為那個人講得太誇張了然後你也曾經開罰過啊你不是無法可管啦我們法律規範是怎樣你知不知道你講一下好不好"},{"start":485.402,"end":509.21,"text":"目前的法律規範就像我剛剛講的他是必須基於客觀的觀測資料來做的預測他才是預測另外一件事情的確我們這個宣導要加強因為很多民眾對於什麼是傳播什麼是預報這件事情沒有辦法去清楚的區隔你要抓幾件如果真的有開罰這個才有一些嚇阻作用他們不是不能講"},{"start":510.47,"end":515.364,"text":"但是你講得那麼誇張那麼聳動那你知道是哪裡來?你的根據是什麼?"},{"start":516.488,"end":545.108,"text":"我們法律規範是要有科學資料根據嘛其實它最明確的就是說除了中央氣象署以及你們授權提供資料的機關或個人員不可以做氣象宣告是不是意思大概這樣子嘛從92年開始是可以允許的可是它要標示它的資料出處必須要明確的寫明如果沒有明確的寫明它的資料出處的話那這個部分那網路一大堆啊大家也沒有標示"},{"start":546.747,"end":555.713,"text":"你要不要管一下?而且我跟你講喔 這個都很多人在看喔我剛剛講那個說他可以預測地震那個網紅他有10萬個追蹤者 有10萬個人每天聽預報氣象的所以我們不斷的呼籲 請看官方的預報"},{"start":570.193,"end":579.581,"text":"報告委員在災害天氣來的時候我們的氣象署的相關的管道的page view大概是300到400萬對啦就是真的有發生事情每一天好不好是這個不是無法可管啦你要管啦"},{"start":596.527,"end":596.647,"text":"謝謝林委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a4e7a5bb9d622d0125d4e9913f58cb8d7f8ba9b0039caa7a65c9373198f39be1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:54:26 - 10:04:20","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":594,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:04:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T09:54:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時54分）謝謝主席。請林次長跟程署長，因為不要你來只有坐在那邊也不好。"],["主席：請次長跟署長。"],["林次長國顯：委員早。"],["林委員國成：次長還有署長，因為有時候署長有些不好意思講的，當然因為次長是部裡面負責督導的單位。首先我還是要問一下，因為最近我們在組改的時候，確實組改在整個人事跟整個局署方面做了很大的改變，可是組改要改變當然就是因為該項目一定會更好，或者更多人，或者更有經費，可是我看過所有局改署的過程中，看來唯一就只有氣象局轉為氣象署之後人員少、經費少。","次長，來，這個你答復一下。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，經費沒有少，經費部分依照原來的算法它有成長，但是人力的部分，確實它從那個叫編制員額，一個是編制員額，剛剛委員寫法定員額，編制員額的部分它是覈實以預算員額來加5%，我是覺得這一塊，對氣象署來講，如同各位委員指教的，如果人力不足，我想交通部會協助，一定會努力來爭取。"],["林委員國成：現在氣象局變成氣象署，看起來是很龐大的組改，請問一下，現在氣象署屬於幾級單位？二級或三級單位？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，三級，跟……"],["林委員國成：跟局的位階也是一樣，都是三級單位？當初氣象局的時候也是三級單位嘛……"],["林次長國顯：都是三級單位。"],["林委員國成：那署也是三級單位嘛？"],["林次長國顯：是的。"],["林委員國成：基本上我舉一個例，觀光署的人員增加了一百多人，它的經費成長11億，這就很奇怪，氣象署是一個專業單位，有時候它的預報可能就會跟全國老百姓的生命是有關的。"],["林次長國顯：是的。"],["林委員國成：養兵千日用在一時，不要以為這個單位是沒有用的，你們就把這個單位，講快一點是明升暗降，表面上升格為署，事實上把經費、把人員都減掉。我要給常次做一個參考，真的，專業單位就要跟中央研究院一樣，它年年經費增加，研究人員也年年增加，然後他使用的是高精密的儀器，所以這點憑良心講，我雖然不是氣象專業，但是我們說實在的，就剛剛我們同仁所問的，你一個預報就可以讓一個政務官或地方父母官決定今天是否上課或是否有什麼氣象的嚴重性，這是非常重要的。"],["林次長國顯：是的。"],["林委員國成：所以署長，剛才我看你坐在那裡坐那麼久，因為我們召集人就請你上台講兩句，其實這部分你要幫他們講話……"],["林次長國顯：有。"],["林委員國成：不要還幫他們講，這部分要幫他們講話。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，基本上您提的非常對，氣象署人力雖然不是非常多，但是他的工作是涵蓋非常廣的……"],["林委員國成：他是專業的啦！"],["林次長國顯：第二個您提到它的專業……"],["林委員國成：專業的就一個人一個經費嘛！"],["林次長國顯：對，它專業人力也最強，因為博士、碩士的比例也相對高。您剛剛提的全國最強的電腦，現在也是只有……氣象署的還比中研院甚至國家電腦中心都還要強……"],["林委員國成：那是最好。"],["林次長國顯：所以這是非常重要的事。"],["林委員國成：來來來，程署長來。另外一個，為什麼貴署有一些人才之流動率非常高，到最後我們培養出來的氣象人才，不是流到外面的氣象公司，就是流到外面的電視廣播公司，請問一下，你有沒有找出原因？"],["程署長家平：謝謝委員的垂詢。談到人員流動，從公務體系的角度來看，氣象署跟其他公務體系的人員流動的確相對地稍微高一點，因為外面的就業市場其實蠻多的，那也是因為……"],["林委員國成：這跟薪資有關吧？他的專業跟他的薪資，我說實在的，這都不是你們裡面的人，這是我們身為一個民意代表，既然要監督你們，要馬跑當然要讓馬吃草，專業單位本來就該有符合其專業水準的薪資。所以署長，我知道你很客氣啦，但是今天林常次也來，要讓他知道你們的委屈，民意代表當然一定要幫你們講，但是有一點，該罵的我們也會罵，這是民意代表的本質，所以署長，該講的還是要講。","另外一個，我比較納悶的是，氣象公司跟我們氣象署的隸屬關係如何？因為現在就有發生一個問題，舉例：氣象公司所報的是11度，但是你們報的是12度，這個誤差跟這個連結、跟這個付費的東西到底問題出在哪邊？來，署長。"],["程署長家平：其實我們的氣象法在民國92年修法以後……"],["林委員國成：你不要跟我講這些，你把問題講出來就好，你不要占我的時間，拜託！我幫你們講話，你還要占我的時間！"],["程署長家平：目前我們允許民間自己來做氣象預報，所以因為看法不同……"],["林委員國成：是有誤差喔！"],["程署長家平：我們是就全國做預報，民間基本上它對特定的區域做預報，並且對特定區域做服務。"],["林委員國成：好，署長，我提醒你，這事已經讓我們老百姓對於氣象報告的準確度跟信賴度是有質疑的，所以你們要去整合一下，好不好？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["林委員國成：另外一個，誠如剛才李召集人所講的，你們AI的發展是什麼？未來的趨勢一定是這樣，這是第一個。第二個，我們海底的新海纜計畫，剛才提到原本是800，又縮到200，請你也簡單說明一下。我比較有興趣的就是你們的氣象觀察站跟雷達，就這個部分你們簡單扼要報告一下現在的進度、經費的來源讓我們瞭解一下。"],["程署長家平：特別在雷達的部分跟委員稍微說明一下。目前有水利署在支持，所以我們的防災降雨雷達目前還有宜蘭和雲林兩個雷達，在今年雷達站及雷達裝設都會完成。剛剛在前面的報告裡面有提到未來的雷達部分，我們已經申請了金馬雷達計畫，國發會的審議也已經過了，目前正在依照他們的意見做修改。為什麼要在金門和馬祖增加這個雷達？一個部分是金馬在我們西部上游，因為從臺灣看到金門和馬祖的時候，雷達能夠看到的已經是在高空的狀態，所以在低空沒有辦法掌握；另外一個部分是有關霧的部分……"],["林委員國成：好，程署長，拜託，這個部分AI的發展、新海纜的計畫還有氣象觀察站跟雷達的部分，請你書面給我，好不好？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["林委員國成：請用書面說明進度。最後我再問一個問題，大家都知道，我們的衛星上空去年發射成功，這也沒有什麼秘密，發射上去的是獵風者號，這個當然跟電信、觀測是有關的，這個雷達發射上去以後，到底太空中心跟氣象署做了什麼連結？這個很重要，是不是請簡單說明一下？"],["程署長家平：是，我們跟國家太空中心其實有長期合作，從過去的福三到現在在營運的福七，以及去年發射的獵風者……"],["林委員國成：署長，就是現在你們怎麼聯絡？"],["程署長家平：臺灣是全球兩個這種衛星的資料處理中心之一，在臺灣的部分就在氣象署裡面，所以這個部分是長期地跟國家太空中心去合作，相關產生的太空、天氣、測報的產品也提供我們的國家太空中心做相關的應用。"],["林委員國成：好，你們現在運作的情況也用書面給我，好不好？"],["程署長家平：好。"],["林委員國成：因為我很關心氣象署未來發展連結的主要的問題，拜託也給我書面，好不好？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["林委員國成：以上，謝謝。"],["程署長家平：謝謝委員。"],["主席：林委員發言完畢。現在此宣告：本日有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理，我們將於何欣純委員詢答完畢後，隨即處理臨時提案，並於林沛祥委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。","現在請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":330,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","林沛祥","陳雪生","邱若華","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部首長率同中央氣象署署長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.995968750000001,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.134093750000002,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.12909375,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.33534375,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.47846875,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.051593750000002,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.56596875,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.37096875,"end":43.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.09159375,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.977218750000006,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.204718750000005,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.23784375,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.485968750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.28721875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.14909375,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.38034375000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.66409375,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.93659375000001,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.91471875,"end":123.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.89346875000001,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.22659375,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.02346875,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.64784375000002,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.66471875000002,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.14971875,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.27596875,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.35596875000002,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.42721875,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.89034375,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.60284375,"end":148.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.12159375000002,"end":152.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.08721875,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.20034375,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.50784375,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.67221875,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.13596875000002,"end":169.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.18159375000002,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.38409375,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.71721875,"end":188.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.60909375,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.85159375,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.31659375,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.57221875000002,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.56784375,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.98534375000003,"end":238.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.17096875000001,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.10659375,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.73096875000002,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.76034375,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.02159375000002,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.81471875000003,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.52221875000004,"end":261.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.76221875000005,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.42034375000003,"end":264.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.27659375,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.09471875,"end":269.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.72721875,"end":274.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.50284375,"end":290.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.50409375000004,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.26096875,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.97784375000003,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.92284375,"end":348.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.88784375,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.31346875,"end":353.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.81534375,"end":363.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.68721875,"end":364.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.08784375000005,"end":366.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.23096875000005,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.03596875000005,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.48284375000003,"end":375.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.56284375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.53721875,"end":400.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.03909375,"end":381.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.00784375,"end":391.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.69409375000004,"end":437.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.07221875000005,"end":442.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.28659375,"end":444.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.02909375,"end":444.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.77159375,"end":444.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.78846875000005,"end":446.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.79659375000006,"end":492.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.49471875,"end":488.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.51159375000003,"end":488.95034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.40596875000006,"end":491.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.49409375000005,"end":492.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.57846875,"end":492.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.96659375,"end":516.3215937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.09784375,"end":542.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.25846875,"end":543.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.91221875,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.0303437499999,"end":554.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.80971875,"end":554.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.72909375,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.9740937500001,"end":590.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.89221875,"end":591.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.90471875,"end":592.57971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.577,"end":14.739,"text":"林副副副副副副副副"},{"start":32.685,"end":56.539,"text":"市長是負責在部裡面督導之單位首先我會感覺到我還是要問一下因為最近我們在主改的時候確實在整個人事跟整個局署方面在主改是做很大的一個改變可是這個主改改變當然就是因為"},{"start":58.49,"end":60.211,"text":"各位報告經慧沒有少經慧他依照原來的有成長"},{"start":86.978,"end":104.598,"text":"人力的部分確實他從那個叫編制元額一個是編制元額當委員寫法定元額編制元額部分他是核實以預算元額來交5%我是覺得這一塊對氣象署來講當然各位委員指教了如果人力不足"},{"start":105.439,"end":116.345,"text":"我想交通部會協助現在氣象署局裡面又變成氣象署看起來是很龐大的這種主改請問一下他現在氣象署屬於幾幾單位"},{"start":122.97,"end":144.568,"text":"二級或三級報演三級跟所謂的局裡面的也是一樣都三級單位不是局啦當初氣象局的時候也是三級單位嘛那署也是三級單位嘛所以這個基本上我跟你講我舉例觀光署啊他之前增加100多人他的經費啊成長11"},{"start":147.719,"end":160.357,"text":"十一億那就是很奇怪這是氣象署他是一個專業單位他有時候他的疫報可能就是全國的老百姓"},{"start":161.55,"end":187.095,"text":"就會跟他生命是有關的養兵千日用在一時不要以為這個單位是沒有用你們就把這個單位講快一點民生暗匠表面上生俗事實上把經費把人員都減掉其實我要給常識做一個參考真的專業單位"},{"start":188.715,"end":209.981,"text":"就要跟中央研究院一樣他年年經會增加年年的研究人員增加然後他使用的是高精密的儀器所以這點憑良心講我雖然不是氣象專業但是我們說實在就剛剛我們同仁所問的啊"},{"start":211.261,"end":227.424,"text":"你一個預報就可以決定一個政務官或地方地務官決定今天是否上課或是否有什麼氣象的嚴重性這是非常重要所以師傅剛才我看你坐在那裡久了因為我們11人就叫你去講兩句其實這個你要幫他們講話不要幫他們講這個要幫他們講話"},{"start":238.486,"end":264.332,"text":"基本上您提的非常對啦 氣象署人力雖然不是非常多但是他的工作是涵蓋非常廣他是專業的啦 專業的就一個人一個經會嘛對 他專業人力也最強 因為博士碩士的比例也相對高那您剛提的全國最強的電腦現在也是只有 氣象署還比中研院甚至國家電腦中心都還要強 那是最好這個是非常重要的事 來來來 那個陳署長來"},{"start":267.145,"end":290.587,"text":"另外一個為什麼我們貴署有一些人才流動力之非常高到最後我們培養出來的氣象人才一不是留在外面的氣象公司就連留到外面的電視廣播公司請問一下來你有沒有找出這個原因"},{"start":293.991,"end":294.431,"text":"這跟薪資有關吧?"},{"start":313.034,"end":340.019,"text":"他的專業跟他的薪資我說實在的 這都不是你們裡面的人這是我們身為一個民意代表既然要監督你們要馬跑當然要讓馬吃草專業單位本來就有專業的一些薪資所以 署長 我知道你很客氣但是今天林昌志也來讓他知道你們的委屈民意代表當然一定要幫你們講但是有一點"},{"start":341.441,"end":347.86,"text":"該罵的我們也會罵這是民意代表的本質所以署長該講的還是要講來另外一個"},{"start":348.959,"end":373.144,"text":"我比較納悶的氣象公司跟我們氣象署這個隸屬關係如何因為你們現在就有發生一個問題喔氣象公司所報的幾粒11度但是你們報的是12度這個誤差跟這個連結跟這個負荷的東西到底問題出在哪邊來輸定"},{"start":376.647,"end":401.617,"text":"其實我們的氣象法在民國9292年修法你不要跟我講這些阿你把問題講出來就好你不要佔我的時間阿拜託幫您講話你又要佔我的時間目前我們是允許民間自己來做氣象預報所以因為看法是有誤差喔那我們是就全國做預報那民間基本上他對特定的區域做預報並且對特定區域提醒你這是已經產生"},{"start":402.998,"end":420.195,"text":"我們老百姓對於氣象報告的準確度跟信賴度是有質疑的所以你們要去整合一下好不好好另外一個剛才我們李召集人所講的我們的AI你們的發展是什麼未來的機制一定是這樣那第一個"},{"start":420.956,"end":445.824,"text":"第二個我們海底的新海南計畫剛才已經800又收到200這簡單你也說明一下我比較有興趣的就是說你們氣象觀察站跟雷達這個部分你們簡單要報告一下現在的進度經費的來源讓我們了解一下"},{"start":447.294,"end":466.943,"text":"特別在雷達的部分跟委員稍微說明一下目前我們有水利署在支持所以我們的防災降雨雷達目前還有宜蘭和雲林兩個雷達在今年的雷達站還有雷達裝設今年都會完成那剛剛在前面的報告裡面有提到未來的雷達的部分我們已經申請了金馬雷達的計畫"},{"start":468.824,"end":490.746,"text":"在國發會那邊的審議也已經過了目前正在依照他們的意見在做修改那為什麼要在金門和馬祖增加這個雷達一個部分是有關它是我們的上游西部的上游因為從台灣看到金門和馬祖的時候雷達能夠看到的已經是在高空的狀態所以在低空沒有辦法掌握那個陳主委拜託"},{"start":492.648,"end":515.631,"text":"拜託這個部分AI的發展還有新海嵐的計畫還有氣象觀察站跟雷達這個部分請你書面給我好不好請你書面進度好最後我再一個問題我們大家都知道因為我們這個衛星上空去年發射成功這也沒有什麼秘密"},{"start":517.468,"end":536.598,"text":"發射上去也就是我們列風澤號上去那這個當然跟電信啊跟觀測啊當然是有關那我們這個雷達發上去以後那到底我們現在到底是我們太空中心這裡跟我們氣象署這裡做什麼連結這個很重要"},{"start":543.959,"end":563.666,"text":"是不是請簡單說明一下是我們跟國家太空中心其實有長期合作從過去的福山到現在在營運的福星已經去年發射的列公者那台灣是全球兩個這種衛星的資料處理中心之一那在台灣的部分就在氣象局裡面"},{"start":564.446,"end":592.296,"text":"所以這個部分是長期的跟國家太空中心去合作我們相關產生的太空天氣測報的相關產品也提供給我們的國家太空中心做相關的應用好啊你們現在在運作的情況也書面給我好不好因為我很關心這個未來是這個氣象署這裡未來發展連結的主要的問題拜託也給我書面好不好好以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa0e4cb110117a9431b0cd19bcd66f1b3f8ba9b0039caa7a6d4b87469f07609445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:12:19 - 10:24:00","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從ETF熱賣看政府如何健全投資管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:24:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:12:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時12分）謝謝主席。我請黃天牧主委以及嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請黃主委、副總裁。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["郭委員國文：兩位，我今天排這個主題，重點其實在於游資過多，ETF是游資過多很重要的一個投資工具。我看黃天牧主委的報告當中，針對ETF並沒有說明游資過多如何做一個適當的引導，以避免流向房市。倒是央行這邊的報告比較有接近這個主題。剛剛賴士葆委員討論的超額儲蓄，確實是一個大問題，去年是3.31，今年已經預估是3.84兆。剛剛央行的報告當中一直強調跟銀行端之間的互動沒有所謂資金過剩的問題，可是問題是民間的資金確實有過剩的現象，否則不會有ETF這一種投資的熱潮，最關鍵的原因是在這裡頭，這也是我要跟大家討論的部分。在後續的討論當中，我必須做一個提醒，副總裁，因為央行這個禮拜四已經要開理監事會議了，本週是央行週。臺灣這個金錢的流入，經過地緣政治還有相關的因素，導致臺商回流的資金專案已經高達三千多億，在這五年之內不能投入房地產，25%只能進入股市的部分已經要解限了。我請問一下副總裁，你有沒有注意到這個訊息？也就是8月的時候，我們有更多的資金會投入民間的游資當中。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我想這個問題還是歸咎於我們過去幾年的經常帳順差、大幅的順差有很大的關係。"],["郭委員國文：對，你解釋了原因，但是我的問題是要解決問題，就是游資過多，你有沒有什麼政策工具可以來做引導？而不是用定存利率的部分跟銀行之間往來而已，禮拜四要嚴重地去面對的問題是，現在這種狀況、大家所擔心的問題嘛。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：因為我們的政策工具，我們會考慮到整個金融市場的變動情形，所以委員講的這個3.8兆或3.31兆，其實……"],["郭委員國文：我現在是做一個慎重的提醒，在禮拜四的理監事會議的時候，有諸多的現象是未來跟現在的狀況造成的一個社會影響力所產生的影響。我再舉其中一個例子就好，為什麼最近的ETF熱會如此地瘋狂？原因在哪裡？為什麼會有很多人解除定存？因為以平均的定存利率來說，我抓過五大銀行長期的定存利率，才1.594%而已，我們的通膨基本上是高達2.53。事實上，你現在放在銀行，對一個定存族來說，基本上簡直是負利率啊！在基本上是負利率的情況底下，他有一個比較好的、認為比較放心的金融商品的話，他當然相對會投資啊！可是你看看我們總裁說的，楊總裁說會有羊群效應，接下來就像黃天牧主委說的，黃天牧主委講什麼？主委，你不斷地去示警，還要動用金檢，然後不斷地去警告投資人這個東西過熱。主委，老實說，明明你剛剛也在報告當中講得非常清楚，它是透明度高、分散風險，而且基本上又是適合長期持有的投資標的，那為什麼會動用這麼多恫嚇的言詞呢？好像投資ETF是一個高風險的投資商品一樣。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員謝謝，我首先要感謝召委安排這樣一個專案報告，讓我們可以跟大家做一個說明。其實我的重點是，ETF商品是中性的，重點是你要銷售給適合那個風險承受的人，而且資訊要說清楚，問題是我們在日常監理跟檢查時發現，很多投信在ETF的銷售過程中，沒有適度地讓投資人瞭解這檔商品的正確資訊，還有他在追蹤指數的時候，也有一些地方是需要去改進的。"],["郭委員國文：所以你警告的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：重點是……"],["郭委員國文：主委，不好意思，我打岔你一下，你警告的對象應該是投信公司，而不是投資人，你好像要恫嚇投資人說ETF的這個基金，股票型的、指數型的股票基金這樣子下去的話會充分高風險。"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，報告委員，有兩面，投信公司要瞭解客戶，客戶也要瞭解那個商品。那瞭解商品，投信公司有責任要告訴客戶，你買的是什麼商品、它所標榜的配息是怎麼配的、它的來源是哪裡、平準金的規範有沒有確實去做，這些其實都是我們日常要監理的重點。"],["郭委員國文：其實主委您的報告當中寫得非常清楚，我想是有標的過度集中的問題沒有錯，但是你提出來新的一種方式，依照目前ETF的主流是被動型的，你開放所謂主動型的，這種主動型的ETF基本上是放任，或者是過度信任基金經理人的可能性都存在啊！過往的基金經理人，依照你最近處罰的對象──富邦、保德信是有「跟單」的問題以及瀚亞投信有「抬轎炒股」的問題等等，也就是基本上基金經理人還會出現這種問題喔！如果相較主動型跟被動型，其實目前為止ETF以落後指標來說反而透明度更高、更能夠值得安心、值得相信啊！在讓投資人更能夠看得到的情況底下，你去推主動型，老實說真的能夠分攤到風險嗎？我是覺得很質疑。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個商品也是因為國外有主動型，所以業者這方面也希望我們能夠有一些機會，所以大家還在研究中，並沒有到最後的階段，可能到今年6、7月以後……"],["郭委員國文：對啊！我是說，不是業者講你就要聽嘛！我有耳聞，有一些業者會跟你lobby，但是基本上哪一種對投資人比較好？我們應該先對這個部分去做promote才對，而不是把每一種不同的國外商品拿進來，拿進來之後風險更高，不是造成我們更大的困擾嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您的指示我們一定會納入這次商品整個考慮的參考。"],["郭委員國文：講白一點，你要說用主動型的部分，其實現在的基金跟主動型只是差別沒有股票化而已，不是嗎？另外，照目前這個數字來看，如果看到現在ETF的占比，你的報告裡頭提到，占整體股市也不過2.38%而已，而交易量也不到1%。也就是說，所有的投資人在這個行為上，他也知道是長期持有，所以交易量相對於占比來說是低很多的，主委，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，它的交易量其實是可以被管理的，只有1%左右。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，在這樣的情況底下，目前所謂ETF的投資雖然比例上成長速度很快，你剛剛只有講到一個重點，是比例上成長很快，但並沒有造成那麼高的風險，可是被你們動用這麼多的名詞跟手段，然後變成一個很像是高風險的投資商品，如果是這種情況，老實講，本席是很擔心，因為市場游資過多的情況底下，你現在沒有一個比較適合的投資標的，好不容易有一個ETF，反而要被你阻絕，還要祭出投資上限，主委，如果是投資海外的ETF，你有投資上限，本席也就認了，因為那有一個不確定的風險存在，但國內這種被動型投資的ETF，基本上都會揭露它過去的成效多少，如果不好，它就會替換掉，在這種情況底下，你真的還需要進行設限嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，特別跟您報告，我們從頭到尾都沒有提要設限，我今天談到的沒有任何量的限制，只有希望在銷售過程中能夠讓投資人正確瞭解它的資訊跟商品的性質。"],["郭委員國文：所以只有加強資訊揭露，並沒有刻意要打壓目前的ETF說要進行所謂上限的限制，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，委員，我們的報告沒有這種論點出現，我們都強調……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我是看到新聞有寫，而且你們還有出來發言，就是有這樣的新聞報導，本席才在這邊詢問你。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我也特別要感謝您給我這個機會說明。"],["郭委員國文：我記得明明非常清楚，主委，在ETF二十週年慶博覽會的時候，你還有站在蔡英文總統旁邊，而且強調這個ETF透明度高、分散風險、適合長期投資等等，講白一點，你們的基富通基本上也是在做這個事情，跟這個分散風險也是一樣的，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對啊，可是問題就是，它現在標榜的配息等這些東西有沒有讓投資人真的瞭解那個配息的本質，包括平準金的規範是不是都瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：主委，我今天特別提這一題，就是希望你要去強調，現階段的ETF並沒有你們剛剛所說的那些行政手段裡頭那麼高風險的存在，這會造成外界的誤導啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，如果給您造成誤會，我跟您致歉，我們報告的主旨沒有這個意思，強調的都是網紅、集中度等這些可能大家忽略的事情。"],["郭委員國文：那就適當的做一個澄清啦！但是主委，我認為你現在最需要做的是什麼？比如說這種資金過度，本席要說的是，在儘量不要流到其他地方導致炒房現象的情況底下，你還有沒有其他的作為？就是說風險懸殊的部分，其實在您的手中，銀行局有沒有去思考過調高的可能性？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實我們配合央行的穩定房價，包括行政院的政策，我們在2年前的1月初就已經對於央行選擇性金融管制的一些授信標的提高了風險權數。"],["郭委員國文：對，你們有提高，但問題是資本的集中度還是不斷的提高啊！在不動產的部分啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，我們在2021年的時候對於幾家房貸授信集中度高的銀行就有個別列管，要求他們要降低，現在都有調整。"],["郭委員國文：但是在整個列管的過程當中，我們還是有看到漏網之魚，包括融資公司的部分，透過銀行來借貸的部分，而形成資本集中堆高的現象。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，融資公司的部分，對於幾家上市公司，我們都有約談過，也會透過上市櫃公司的內控，還有我們將來會透過它的融資的金融機構去瞭解他們在授信處理……"],["郭委員國文：2年前風險係數的提高，是不是需要再提高，我請主委回去好好慎重思考一下，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實風險權數已經提得滿高了。"],["郭委員國文：提得滿高了，所以不需要再提了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：短期內我們還是維持跟央行……"],["郭委員國文：是針對金融機構的部分啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，其實2年前已經提得滿高的，那次提高，業者都覺得滿高的。"],["郭委員國文：好，我們看情況啦，好不好？後續再來追問，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","李彥秀","賴士葆","賴惠員","羅明才","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","李坤城","洪孟楷","王世堅","林楚茵","牛煦庭","徐巧芯"],"page_start":147,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司林董事長修銘及財團法\n人中華民國證券櫃檯買賣中心陳董事長永誠、中央銀行分別就「從 ETF 熱賣看政府如何健全投資\n管道引導民間游資，避免熱錢過度投入房市」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.43284375,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.80409375,"end":103.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.23409375,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.79909375000001,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.07221875,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.37034375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.60409375,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.88221875000002,"end":148.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.28596875000002,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.91284375,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.66159375,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.57096875000002,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.01971875,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.45346875,"end":253.12221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.69284375,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.30784375000002,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.68284375,"end":260.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.51346875,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.71596875,"end":275.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.55346875000004,"end":289.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.52159375,"end":291.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.96846875,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.53221875,"end":302.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.61596875000004,"end":309.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.13034375,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.72971875,"end":338.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":350.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.79471875,"end":369.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.82534375,"end":382.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.59596875,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.10346875000005,"end":405.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.70596875,"end":412.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.41784375000003,"end":414.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.10534375000003,"end":417.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.80534375,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.39846875,"end":437.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.85284375000003,"end":438.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.66284375000004,"end":442.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.12221875,"end":461.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.95034375,"end":477.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.04909375000005,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.75471875000005,"end":510.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.76971875000004,"end":519.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.7978437500001,"end":523.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0378437500001,"end":526.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.61534375,"end":530.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.77534375,"end":532.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.6059687500001,"end":547.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.4978437500001,"end":557.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.39096875,"end":568.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0478437500001,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.26284375,"end":580.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8347187500001,"end":581.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.2734687500001,"end":592.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.65221875,"end":587.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.82096875,"end":588.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.3815937500001,"end":604.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.88346875,"end":592.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.25284375,"end":612.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.67784375,"end":613.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.53846875,"end":617.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.29721875,"end":625.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.80659375,"end":630.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.07221875,"end":627.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.53159375,"end":632.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.55659375,"end":633.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.9740937500001,"end":637.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.04096875,"end":643.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.6772187500001,"end":648.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.9084687500001,"end":655.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.34659375,"end":653.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.60784375,"end":669.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.12909375,"end":673.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.86221875,"end":681.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.9584687500001,"end":682.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.3884687500001,"end":686.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.4428437500001,"end":687.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.2822187500001,"end":691.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.8390937500001,"end":688.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.61909375,"end":694.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.3359687500001,"end":697.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.60971875,"end":697.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.7278437500001,"end":698.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.5503437500001,"end":701.15346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.722,"end":11.137,"text":"謝謝主席我請黃天牧主委請黃主委請我們的這個嚴副總裁副總裁請"},{"start":19.61,"end":46.607,"text":"主委兩位我今天排這個主題其實重點其實在於游資過多那ETF是一個游資過多一個很重要的一個投資工具那我看那個黃天牧主委的報告當中都針對ETF並沒有針對游資過多如何做一個適當的引導以避免流向房市那導致央行這邊的報告是比較有接近這個主題"},{"start":48.267,"end":74.117,"text":"剛剛在立法委員在討論這個超額儲蓄是確實一個大問題去年是3.31今年已經預估是3.84兆剛剛央行的報告當中一直強調跟銀行端之間的互動沒有所謂的這個資金過剩的問題可是問題是民間的資金確實是有過剩的現象否則不會有ETF這一種投資的一個熱潮最關鍵的原因是在這裡頭要跟大家討論的這個部分"},{"start":75.618,"end":103.412,"text":"然後在後續的這個討論當中我必須做一個提醒因為央行這個禮拜四這個副總裁禮拜四的部分已經要開禮監事會議本週是央行週看臺灣的這個金錢的流入經過這個地緣政治還有包括相關的因素導致回來的臺商的回流資金的專案已經高達3000多億而這5年之內不能投入房地產25%只能進入這個股市的部分已經要解限了喔"},{"start":104.652,"end":111.017,"text":"這個我請問一下副總長你有沒有注意到這個訊息也就是8月的時候我們有更多的資金會投入這個民間的一個游資當中欸副總長"},{"start":114.304,"end":136.61,"text":"那個報告委員我想這個問題還是歸咎於跟我們的那個過去幾年的經常在順差大幅度順差有很大的關係對你來解釋原因但是我問題是要解決問題嘛就游資過多你有沒有什麼政策工具來可以做引導而不是用定存利率的部分跟銀行間之間往來而已嘛就是說禮拜四要嚴重要去面對問題是現在這種狀況大家擔心的問題嘛"},{"start":141.909,"end":147.595,"text":"因為我們的政策工具我們會考慮到整個金融市場的變動情形所以"},{"start":152.92,"end":172.148,"text":"我現在是做一個慎重的提醒在禮拜四的禮監事會議的時候有些諸多的現象以及未來是跟現在狀況裡頭所造成的一個社會影響力的影響我再舉其中一個例子就好了為什麼最近的ETF熱會如此的一個瘋狂原因在哪裡為什麼會很解除定存"},{"start":172.788,"end":187.541,"text":"因為平均的定存利率來說我抓過五大銀行三期的定存率才1.594%而已我們通膨基本上是高達2.53%事實上你現在放在銀行裡的一個定存組基本上簡直是負利率"},{"start":189.122,"end":215.357,"text":"基本上是負利率的情況底下他有一個比較好的認為比較放心的金融商品的話他當然相對會投資啊可是你看看我們總裁黨總裁說會有羊群效應接下來就像黃天牧總裁黃天牧主委黃天牧主委講什麼主委你不斷地示警然後呢你還要動用精檢然後不斷地警告投資人這個東西過熱主委老師說齁"},{"start":216.678,"end":238.417,"text":"明明你也剛剛在報告當中講得非常清楚它這個透明度高分散風險而且呢基本上呢又可以適合長期持有的這個投資標的那為什麼會動用這麼多恫嚇的言詞呢好像投資ETF是一個高風險的這個投資商品一樣主委"},{"start":239.485,"end":259.518,"text":"委員謝謝我先要感謝昭緯安排這樣一個專案報告讓我們可以跟大家做一個說明其實我的重點ETF商品是中性的重點是你要銷售給適合那個風險承受的人而且資訊要說清楚問題是我們在日常監理跟檢查發現"},{"start":260.959,"end":279.527,"text":"很多投信在ETF的銷售過程中沒有適度的讓投資人瞭解這檔商品的正確的資訊還有他在追蹤指數的時候有些地方也是有一些地方是需要去被改進的所以你警告的主委不好意思我跟您打岔你警告的對象是應該是投信公司而不是投資人"},{"start":280.347,"end":299.797,"text":"你好像在恫嚇投資人說這個股票呢這個ETF的這個基金股票型的指數型的投票股票基金這樣子下去的話會充分高風險沒有 報告委員有兩面投信公司要了解客戶客戶也要了解那個商品那了解商品投信公司有責任要告訴客戶你買的是什麼商品是"},{"start":300.137,"end":325.584,"text":"他所標榜的配息是怎麼配的他的來源從哪裡評準金的規範有沒有確實去做這些其實都是我們要日常監理的重點其實主委您的報告當中寫得非常清楚我想是有過度集中的問題標的過度集中的問題沒有錯但是你提出來一個新的一種方式依照目前的這個ETF的主流是在這種被動型的你所謂開放這個所謂主動型的"},{"start":326.444,"end":348.174,"text":"這個主動型的這一種ETF的話基本上是放任或者是過度新任基金經理人的可能性都存在啊過往的基金經理人依照你最近處罰的對象就是富邦、保德性這跟單的問題還有包括漢雅投信有抬轎炒股的問題等等基金經理人基本上還會出現這種問題喔"},{"start":350.885,"end":369.083,"text":"那以照如果是以從主動型跟被動型目前為止ETF以落後指標來說反而透明度更高啊更能夠值得安心就值得相信啊當投資人更能夠看得到的情況底下那你去推主動型老實說有真的能夠分攤到風險嗎我只覺得很失意啊"},{"start":370.851,"end":399.509,"text":"那委員這個商品也是因為國外有主動型所以業者這方面也希望我們能夠有一些機會所以大家還在研究中並沒有到最後的階段可能到今年六七以後我不是說業者講 你就要聽嘛我有耳聞嘛 有一些業者去跟你拉比嘛但是呢 基本上哪一種對投資人比較好我們應該對這個部分來去做Promote才對而不是說每一種不同的國外的商品拿進來拿進來之後風險更高不是造成我們更大的困擾嗎"},{"start":400.45,"end":428.06,"text":"委員您的指示我們一定會納入這次商評審整個考慮的參考講白一點被動型的部分你要說用主動型的部分現在基金都主動型是差別沒有股票化而已啊不是嗎然後另外的部分呢以照目前的這個數字來看齁如果看到現在的這個比例啊ETF的佔比您的報告裡頭佔整體的股市也不過是2.38%而已而交易量啊也不到1%欸"},{"start":429.48,"end":445.416,"text":"也就是說所有的投資人在這個行為上他也知道是長期持有所以交易量相對於這個佔比來說是低很多嘛不是嗎主委所以他交易量其實是可以被管理的只有1%左右對阿如果是這樣子的情況底下也就是說目前"},{"start":446.056,"end":467.612,"text":"所謂的這個ETF投資雖然比例上成長速度很快你剛剛只有講到一個重點是比例上成長很快並沒有造成那麼高的風險可是被你們動用這麼多的名詞跟手段然後變成是一個很像高風險的一個投資商品如果是這種情況底下老實講本席是很擔心因為市場的游資過多的情況底下"},{"start":468.433,"end":494.626,"text":"你現在沒有一個比較適合的投資標的好不容易有一個ETF反而被你這種主角的情況底下還所謂的要祭出什麼?投資上限主委你如果說要投資海外的ETF你有投資上限那本席也就認了就是因為有一個不確定的風險存在那國內的這種被動型的這個ETF基本上都會揭露它過去的成效多少如果不好的話它就替換掉"},{"start":495.846,"end":519.832,"text":"這種情況底下你真的還需要進行設限嗎委員特別跟您報告我們從頭到尾都沒有提要設限我今天談到的沒有任何量的限制只有希望在銷售過程中能夠讓投資人正確了解他的資訊跟商品的性質所以只有加強資訊揭露並沒有刻意要打壓目前的ETF說要進行所謂的上限的限制有沒有"},{"start":519.892,"end":546.228,"text":"沒有,委員我們的報告沒有這種論點出現沒有,我是看到新聞有寫而且你們還有出來發言就是有這樣的新聞報導可是我也特別要感謝您給我這個機會說明所以我記得明明非常清楚主委你20週年慶的時候ETF20週年慶博覽會的時候你還有站在蔡英文總統旁邊而且強調這個ETF透明度高分散風險適合長期投資等等"},{"start":549.757,"end":557.484,"text":"講白一點你們這個肌膚通基本上也是在做這個事情啊跟這也是分散風險是一樣的啊不是嗎"},{"start":558.684,"end":579.967,"text":"可是問題就是他現在標榜的這些配息這些東西有沒有讓投資人真的瞭解那個配息的本質平準金的規範是不是都瞭解主委我說今天特別提這一題你要去強調現階段的ETF並沒有你們剛剛所做的那個行政手段裡頭的那麼高風險的存在這會造成外界的誤導啦"},{"start":581.488,"end":604.217,"text":"報告委員也許我們我不曉得如果給您造成誤會跟您致歉我們的報告的主旨沒有這個意思強調都是網紅啊還有集中度這些可能大家鼓勵的事情適當的做一個澄清啦但是我認為主委你現在最需要做的是什麼就是說這個資金過度本行要說盡量不要流到其他的這一種炒房的這種現象的情況底下你還有沒有其他的作為啊"},{"start":605.345,"end":630.02,"text":"就是說風險權數的部分其實在您的手中當中銀行局的部分有沒有去思考一下有沒有調高的可能性呢?報告委員其實我們配合央行的穩定房價的包括行政院的政策我們在兩年前的1月初就已經對於央行選擇性信任管制的一些受限的標題提高了風險權數了所以你們有提高但是問題呢資本的集中度還是不斷的提高啊"},{"start":630.64,"end":631.661,"text":"但是在整個列管的過程當中我們還是有看到這一個落網之魚"},{"start":649.002,"end":673.616,"text":"就是包括融資公司的部分透過銀行來借貸的部分而形成這一個資本其中的堆高的現象我跟您報告融資公司部分對於幾家上市公司我們都有約談過也會透過上市公司的內控還有我們將來會透過它的融資的金融機構去了解兩年前的風險技術的提高是否需要再提高請主委回去好好慎重思考一下好不好"},{"start":675.649,"end":697.559,"text":"其實已經提高,風險權數已經提的蠻高的了提的蠻高的,不需要再提了短期內我想我們還是維持跟央行這樣一個這真的金融機構的部分啦對,其實兩年前已經提的蠻高的,那次提高業者其實都有覺得蠻高的了我們看情況了好不好,後續再來追問啦,謝謝謝謝趙偉,謝謝好,謝謝郭國榮委員"}]}},{"id":"149957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aac44bc53c4802f5787ed802f1bf30134f8ba9b0039caa7a690663b8067722b965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:07:05 - 10:19:16","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":731,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:19:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:07:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時7分）謝謝主席，有請教育部潘部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，今天是我們第二次見面，非常高興，因為我們真的有非常多的議題要來跟您探討。首先要感謝召委今天特別安排校園暴力處置的專題報告，近來真的發生了很多的校園暴力的事件，無論是學生或老師之間，其實都會造成一些關係的緊張或者破裂，需要我們投注更多的心力去預防。部長知不知道去年Netflix上面熱播的韓劇─黑暗榮耀，探討的就是校園暴力的議題，上線短短3天，在全球非英語影集的排行榜就攻占第一名。甚至到最後統計6.2億小時的觀看人數，到現在還是非英語的全球第一，在全球79個國家還擠進了前10名，可見校園霸凌可以是一個全球性的議題，除了劇情吸引人之外，可能也勾起了很多人在求學階段多少曾經受到霸凌的回憶。首先想要請教一下教育部部長，您認為在高中以下求學階段，有多少比例的學生曾經有過被霸凌的經驗？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我想估計多少比例是比較不容易啦，因為教育部本身就有通報……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想部長應該還是要有一個概念啦！到底是100個人裡面有1位？還是10位？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我跟委員報告，為什麼剛才我們召委提到從111年到112年的數據，教育部就是擔心孩子在學校受到霸凌或欺負，甚至傷害而不敢講、隱忍啦！所以強力的鼓勵，甚至賦予學校有通報責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以隱忍很危險嘛！我們來看一下，根據教育部校安統計的資料，112年霸凌案件的通報件數是3,050件，確認的案件是285件。以教育部112年度高中以下學生人數的統計，國小一百二十幾萬人；國中五十四萬人；高中六十萬人，所以高中以下學習階段的人數大概是二百三十八萬人。雖然霸凌事件可能不只涉及一個學生，但是以發生比率來看，我們可以看到這個數字跟剛剛所謂的3,050件然後確認案件只有285件，這個在校園裡頭霸凌的發生率，或者所謂確認發生率，竟然只有萬分之一點一。想請問一下部長，您認為這個數據合理嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我一直說怕孩子在這上面有……"],["葛委員如鈞：一萬個人裡面只有一個人確認是霸凌案件，這個合理嗎？請問部長，合理嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這樣的數據……"],["葛委員如鈞：請問部長，合不合理？"],["潘部長文忠：委員應該這樣說，有一些孩子可能有受到這方面的事件，但他沒有被通報……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有通報或者通報後沒有確認，甚至是隱忍……"],["潘部長文忠：所以我們鼓勵應該要做這件事。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們來看一下，教育部的校園安全網到底漏接了多少文同珢？根據衛福部110年公布的青少年健康行為調查報告，國中學生在調查期間30天內被霸凌的比率是5.8%，是我們剛剛看到的萬分之1.1的500倍！高中職生被霸凌的比率是4.3%。106年科技部傳播調查資料庫的調查結果甚至指出，4成以上的國小學生、3成以上的國中生、1成5的高中生表示自己曾經有被霸凌的經驗。這些其他官方統計的數據，和你們教育部的校園霸凌統計資料相比，可以說是天差地別。本席認為教育部不僅不能只以通報系統為主，應該比照其他部會，以主動調查的方式積極地瞭解校園霸凌的真實情況，以避免校園霸凌案件一再產生黑數，也就是部長剛剛提到的隱忍的狀態。不只如此，我們來看看教育部近年的霸凌事件統計資料，這是你們提供的資料，可以看到從109年開始，校園霸凌事件的通報件數一路上升，從109年的1,026件暴增到112年的3,050件，增幅高達三倍，但是霸凌案件的確認率，請看右邊黃色的部分，卻一路下滑，從109年的23%，下降到112年的9%，看起來好像校園霸凌事件變少了，但實際上是什麼？是被確認的比率變少了，這些人通報了以後，結果沒有被確認，那他們的結局到底怎麼樣呢？請問部長，您認為這是校園霸凌事件的誤報率增加，還是確認機制出現問題，需要調整？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，現在教育部通報所涵蓋的面向跟類型，其實是有做更多細項的分別，從過去的70幾項到現在已經增加到100多項，就是希望有更細緻的瞭解。我要跟委員報告，從國際上來講，霸凌有它的定義，而孩子感受到的到底是不是霸凌，他的感覺是有被怎麼樣……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們是要用科學的定律來感受孩子們心裡的感受嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我要跟委員報告的是，它有各種不同的樣態，並不是說所有學生之間的衝突都一定是霸凌……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，打斷部長，我想我們要有同理心，不要把這些規則、規範或科學用在這種地方。無論是哪種情況，本席都認為這顯示出現行校園霸凌處理機制出現bug，我們希望「龍無bug」也在教育部裡發生，必須儘速修正。更令人憂心的是，現行校園霸凌事件的處理流程，當學校因為因應小組不受理案件，假設檢舉人未提出申復或申復再次被否決，則案件逕行結案。這是你們的流程，也就是如果我通報了，剛剛那3,000多件，只有9%被定案，剩下91%就直接結案，我們到底有沒有追蹤？請問部長，這些小心翼翼、膽顫心驚、深夜睡不著覺、挺身而出的檢舉人，在案件被結案以後，要如何在原本的校園環境裡自處？他們後來有沒有辦法順利從原班級、原學校畢業？我們到底有沒有追查？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，每一個通報的案件一定都會列管，這個是我要先講的……"],["葛委員如鈞：包括還沒有確認的嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告後續，因為過去確實也有談到學校在處理這些事情的客觀性，所以在我們現在新調整、修正的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以已經修正了嗎？這是舊的嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：預計4月會公布。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：原因就是希望調查過程當中能客觀。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝。請部長以同理心設想，假設每個通報案件的背後都有受到傷害或者不願意冷眼旁觀的學生，在這些小組裁定、結案以後，我們認為也應該要做後續處理。部長，我認為教育部有需要重新檢討處理流程，加強結案後對檢舉人身心狀況關懷、追蹤的必要性，請您將檢討報告或者新修改的規範，於1個月內提出給本席。"],["潘部長文忠：好，委員這部分我們正在做最後的總整理……"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，謝謝。真的要拜託你們，一定要非常非常的關照……"],["潘部長文忠：這個我補充一下，鼓勵通報……"],["葛委員如鈞：同學們的心理，對不起，我時間有限……"],["潘部長文忠：是我們的態度……"],["葛委員如鈞：但是確認率還是要提高喔！"],["潘部長文忠：對，在注意的過程，我為什麼會說在這次霸凌的準則裡會做糾正，就是要回應委員的關心。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，部長，我們認為同學的心理也很重要，不要拿這些準則來壓這些學生，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！那是希望瞭解真相跟處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我想後面還有很多重要的訊息。目前新世代身處社群文化，大量新的工具，根據教育部提供的統計資料，近年學生主要的霸凌型態正在由傳統的肢體暴力轉變為透過言語關係或者網路的新型態霸凌。以往校園霸凌事件比較容易確認，譬如出手、出腳、動口，但是現在是虛擬的，看不到，甚至也碰不到，模糊難以界定。我們已經幫各位整理出來，4種霸凌型態當中，網路霸凌的確認率，也就是通報數很多，但確認比率最低，4年的平均確認率只有13%，其他的包括肢體暴力確認率都相對比較高。我要提醒部長，新興科技、先進科技正在被誤用，可能成為新的網路霸凌工具。近日美國就發生一起網路霸凌事件，不知道部長有沒有關注到？就是有學生在網路上惡意散布AI生成的偽造照片，把同學的臉拼接上裸體，散布這些偽造的影像。在美國，校方決定嚴懲，把5名涉案的加害學生予以退學，這樣的事件，其實現在正在指數型態，在全世界各地發生，包含美國、加拿大、西班牙、巴西都出現深偽技術Deepfake的有關網路霸凌，我們甚至認為這都是在那些沒有被確認的黑數當中，因為我們的政府好像對於Deepfake驗證時間都拉得很長，能力不一定很強。想請教部長，目前我們是不是應該提升加強生成式AI或者Deepfake相關的一些教育、教學或者理解，讓他們知道這些內容很可能都是假的？考量到兒童的心智發展跟數位素養，我們是不是應該要比照聯合國教科文組織，針對高中以下的學校訂定生成式人工智慧或者Deepfake的危險性使用指南，並且提出生成式AI的建議使用年齡？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員這個指教。確實網路上的霸凌現象，比我們在學校的實體挑戰更大，這方面也藉由目前我們所進行的數位精進方案當中，尤其特別對於老師的增能，就是剛剛委員所指教的這個部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，這樣我們有共識了，太好了。我們真的要提醒部長，目前國教署提供的資料，關於Deepfake的討論教材，就深度偽造、深偽技術只在高中階段，也就是只有16到18歲，所以16歲以下的學生對於這樣的危險性可能是完全不知道。希望能夠請教育部研議，我認為避而不談不是最好的教育方式，希望教育部研議針對國中至國小的階段，給予適當的教材，以預防深偽技術遭到誤用，甚至成為霸凌的新方法，研議結果希望在1個月內提供給本席，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，這個跟委員報告，整個資訊教育、素養這部分，是由教育部資科司在統籌，剛才委員提到的部分，跟我們目前要努力的是一致……"],["葛委員如鈞：可以提出？"],["潘部長文忠：是，我想1個月內……"],["葛委員如鈞：1個月內，好。"],["潘部長文忠：把我們目前進行的情形跟委員做說明。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，最後提醒部長，霸凌事件真的不是只在戲劇當中，一定要一起加速研擬現行校園霸凌機制的處理方式，接下來可能會有很多新的方式出現，我們要一起來保護檢舉人、受害人為最高原則，結案不代表霸凌事件的結束，很可能是新的霸凌事件的開端，我們要持續追蹤關懷。另外，世界上的其他國家已經出現新興的霸凌工具或霸凌型態，教育部應該加速瞭解，並且提出預防措施，他山之石可以攻錯，教育部一定要儘速調整現行校園霸凌的處理機制，並提供校園端必要的外部資源，以因應新型態越來越可怕的校園霸凌，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝，我們非常認同委員的提醒，我們會來努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，謝謝部長。我先預告一下，本委員會在第7號，就是郭昱晴委員質詢完畢之後，我們會休息5分鐘。","接下來，我們請登記第5號的葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","范雲","林倩綺","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","林月琴","何欣純","黃國昌","翁曉玲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳春城","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","羅智強"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部、司法院、法務部及內政部列席就「校園暴力事件之處置、少年犯回歸校園之輔導機\n制及前科紀錄是否塗銷」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.79659375,"end":100.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.97721875,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.08659375,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.28846875,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.23534375000001,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.30284375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.28971875000002,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.62721875,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.04909375,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.67721875,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.87971875000002,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.28034375000001,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.31409375,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.44909375,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.47409375,"end":189.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.41034375,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.94534375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.70034375,"end":201.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.86159375,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.34409375,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.96471875000003,"end":346.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.27659375,"end":354.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.17409375,"end":413.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.58659375,"end":430.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.22721875,"end":420.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.57971875000004,"end":432.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.64284375000005,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.83659375,"end":435.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.50284375,"end":466.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.55346875000004,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.74284375,"end":469.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.95346875,"end":476.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.95721875000004,"end":485.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.17159375000006,"end":479.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.01034375,"end":483.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.17471875,"end":616.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.33471875000004,"end":486.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.41409375,"end":494.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.5590937500001,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.70034375,"end":632.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.2822187500001,"end":669.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.4340937500001,"end":635.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.79971875,"end":682.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.8234687500001,"end":682.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.15221875,"end":682.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.2197187500001,"end":683.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.13096875,"end":728.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.2490937500002,"end":683.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.58221875,"end":684.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.1240937500002,"end":732.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.3178437500001,"end":730.65096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.43,"text":"主席,有請教育部攀部長馬白部長"},{"start":19.074,"end":42.592,"text":"委員好謝謝部長這是我們今天第二次這一次第二次見面非常高興因為我們真的有非常多的議題要來跟您探討首先要感謝朝委今天特別安排校園暴力處置的專題報告近來真的發生了很多的校園暴力的事件無論是學生或老師之間其實都會造成一些關係的緊張或者破裂需要我們投注更多的心力去預防"},{"start":44.393,"end":66.494,"text":"不知道部長知不知道去年Netflix上面熱播的韓劇《黑暗榮耀》探討的就是校園霸凌的議題上線短短三天在全球非英語影集的排行榜就攻佔第一名甚至到最後的統計6.2億的小時觀看人數到現在還是非英語的全球第一"},{"start":67.094,"end":94.812,"text":"在全球79個國家還擠進了前10名可見校園霸凌可以是一個全球性的議題除了這個劇情吸引人之外可能也勾起了很多人在求學階段的多少可能曾經受到霸凌的問題的回憶首先想要請教一下教育部的部長您認為在高中以下的求學階段有多少比例的學生曾經有過被霸凌的經驗"},{"start":96.148,"end":106.557,"text":"跟我們報告我想估計多少比例是比較不容易因為教育部本身就有我想部長應該還是要有一個概念到底是100個人裡面有一位還是10位"},{"start":107.478,"end":125.671,"text":"我跟委員報告為什麼剛才我們召委在提到那個數據從111到112教育部就是擔心孩子在學校受到霸凌或欺負甚至傷害而不敢講 隱忍所以強力的鼓勵甚至有賦予學校有通報所以隱忍很危險所以我們來看一下"},{"start":126.551,"end":142.499,"text":"根據這個教育部的校安統計的資料112年的霸凌案件的通報件數是3050件確認的案件是285件以教育部112年度高中以下學生人數的統計國小120幾萬人"},{"start":145.2,"end":145.24,"text":"主席"},{"start":161.215,"end":172.701,"text":"所謂的3050件然後確認案件只有285件這個在校園的霸凌裡頭的發生率或者所謂確認發生率竟然只有萬分之1.1想請問一下部長您認為這個數據合理嗎?"},{"start":176.864,"end":185.936,"text":"我一直說怕孩子在這上面有一萬個人裡面只有一個人是確認霸凌的案件這個合理嗎?請問部長合理嗎?請問部長合不合理?"},{"start":191.323,"end":191.844,"text":"根據衛福部110年公布的《青少年健康行為調查報告》"},{"start":212.103,"end":224,"text":"國中學生在調查期間30天內被霸凌的比例是5.8%是我們剛剛看到的萬分之1.1的500倍高中職生被霸凌的比例是4.3%106年的科技部傳播調查資料庫的調查結果甚至指出"},{"start":229.608,"end":247.347,"text":"4成以上的國小學生、3成以上的國中生、1成5的高中生表示自己曾經有被霸凌過的經驗這些其他指出的這些官方統計數據和你們教育部的校園霸凌統計資料相比可以說是天差地別"},{"start":248.388,"end":272.136,"text":"我認為本席認為教育部不能只以通報系統為主應該比照其他的部會以主動調查的方式來積極的了解校園霸凌的真實情況以避免校園霸凌案件一再產生黑數剛剛部長也提到了隱忍的這個狀態不只如此我們來看一下教育部近年的霸凌事件統計的資料這是你們提供的這個資料"},{"start":273.922,"end":279.127,"text":"我們可以看到從109年開始校園暴力事件的通報件數一路上升從109年的1026件暴增到112年的3050件增幅高達3倍但是暴力案件的確認率請看右邊黃色的部分卻一路下滑從109年的23%下降到112年的9%"},{"start":299.085,"end":304.907,"text":"看起來我好像校園霸凌事件變少了但實際上是什麼被確認的比率變少了那這些人變成他通報了以後結果沒有被確認他們結局到底是怎麼樣呢請問部長您認為這是校園霸凌事件的誤報率增加還是確認機制出現了問題需要調整"},{"start":318.693,"end":339.518,"text":"我跟委員報告因為現在教育部的通報所涵蓋的面相跟類型其實是有做更多細項從過去的70幾件到現在已經增加到100多項就是希望更了解細的我要跟委員報告霸凌如果從國際的來講它有它的定義但孩子感受到的未必是到底是不是霸凌"},{"start":339.838,"end":340.058,"text":"我想我們現在要有同理心啦"},{"start":356.837,"end":371.442,"text":"我們不要用這些規則、規範或科學用在這種地方無論是哪種情況我們認為都表示現行的校園霸凌的處理機制出現Bug我們都希望都沒有Bug也在教育部裡面發生必須盡速的修正更令人憂心"},{"start":372.702,"end":393.951,"text":"在現行的校園暴力事件的處理上面當學校因為因應小組不受理案件假設檢舉人未提出身負或身負再次被否決則案件進行結案這是你們的流程喔也就是我如果通報了剛剛的那3000多件只有9%被定案那麼91%的直接就去結案了"},{"start":394.511,"end":413.01,"text":"我們到底有沒有追蹤想請問部長這些小心翼翼、膽戰心驚、深夜睡不著覺挺身而出的檢舉人在案件被結案以後要如何在原本的校園裡頭環境自處他們後來有沒有辦法順利從原班級原學校畢業我們到底有沒有追查"},{"start":413.609,"end":429.718,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":429.798,"end":432.38,"text":"請部長以同理心設想假設每個通報案件的背後都有受到傷害或者不願意人眼旁觀的學生在這些小組裁定以後結案以後我們認為應該要做後續處理"},{"start":453.615,"end":474.866,"text":"部長,我認為教育部有需要重新檢討處理流程．加強截然後對檢舉人身心狀況關懷追蹤的必要性希望請您將檢討報告．或者新修改的規範於一個月內提出給本席委員,這一部分我們正在做最後的總整理太好了,謝謝真的要拜託你們一定要非常非常的關照這個我補充一下同學們的心理鼓勵通報是我們的態度"},{"start":477.447,"end":486.932,"text":"但是確認率還是要提高那助力的過程為什麼會說在這次霸凌的準則裡面會去做修正就是要回應委員會的關心我們認為同學的心理也很重要我們不要拿這些準則來壓這些學生那就是希望了解真相跟錯誤我想後面還有很多重要的訊息"},{"start":496.056,"end":516.105,"text":"目前新世代身處社群的文化．大量的新的工具根據教育部提供的統計資料近年來學生主要的霸凌形態正在由傳統的肢體暴力轉變為透過言語關係或者網路的新形態霸凌以往的校園霸凌事件是比較容易確認的"},{"start":517.005,"end":517.325,"text":"4年的平均確認率只有13%"},{"start":537.049,"end":551.898,"text":"其他的肢體暴力的確認力都相對的比較高我要提醒部長新興科技、先進科技正在被誤用可能成為新的網路霸凌工具近日美國就發生一起網路霸凌事件不知道部長有沒有關注到有學生在網路上惡意的散佈AI生成的偽造的照片"},{"start":558.362,"end":584.707,"text":"把同學的臉拼接上裸體散佈這些偽造的影像在美國校方決定嚴懲把五名涉案的加害學生予以退學這樣的事件其實現在正在指數形態在全世界各地發生包含美國、加拿大、西班牙、巴西都出現深偽技術Deepfake的有關網路霸凌我們甚至認為這個都在那些沒有被確認的黑數當中因為我們的政府好像對於Deepfake的驗證"},{"start":585.707,"end":604.173,"text":"時間都拉了很長能力不一定很強想請教部長目前我們是不是應該提升加強深層式AI或者deepfake相關的一些教育教學或者理解讓他們知道這些內容很可能都是假的考量到兒童的心智發展跟數位素養"},{"start":604.713,"end":617.839,"text":"我們是不是應該要比照聯合國教科文的組織針對高中以下的學校訂定深層式人工智慧或者Deepfake的危險性的使用指南並且提出深層式AI的建議使用年齡是,謝謝委員這個指教確實在網路上的霸凌的現象比我們在學校實體確實挑戰更大那這方面也藉由目前我們所進行的這些數位進進方案當中尤其特別對於老師的增能就是剛才委員所指教的"},{"start":634.127,"end":657.396,"text":"我們真的要提醒部長目前國教署提供的資料關於DeFake的討論教材就深度偽造、深偽技術只在高中階段也就是只有16到18歲所以16歲以下的學生對於這樣的危險性可能完全是不知道的希望能夠請教育部來研議我認為閉合不談不是最好的教育方式"},{"start":657.896,"end":663.698,"text":"希望教育部來研議針對國中至國小的階段．給予適當的教材與預防身為技術遭到誤用甚至成為霸凌的新方法希望能夠將研議結果在一個月內提供給本席可以嗎?這個跟委員報告齁整個資訊教育素養還有這部分是由教育部的資科師在整個統籌啦所以剛才委員所提的我想跟我們目前要努力可以提出我想一個月內我們把我們現在目前"},{"start":683.366,"end":704.818,"text":"最後提醒部長暴力事件真的不是只在戲劇當中一定要一起來加速對現行校園暴力機制的處理方法接下來可能會有很多新的方式出現我們要一起來保護檢舉人、受害人為最高原則結案不代表暴力事件的結束很可能是新的暴力事件的開端"},{"start":705.658,"end":729.357,"text":"我們要持續追蹤關懷另外世界上的其他國家已經出現新興的暴力工具或暴力的形態教育部應該要加速了解並且提出預防措施他山之石可以供措教育部一定要儘速的調整現行校園暴力的處理機制並提供校園端必要的外部資源以因應新型態的會越來越可怕的校園暴力事件方法我們非常認同委員的提醒謝謝部長謝謝各位委員 謝謝部長"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}