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請各黨團來表達意見好不好來 請柯總統院長各位列席代表有關於3月15日（有關於執行 然後跳號 引起正義事件"},{"start":2065.404,"end":2081.938,"text":"要說莫說質疑也罷但是我們純粹當一個事件來看待那我們今天協商最主要就是說我希望大家能夠心平氣和把什麼弄清楚那我們希望得到一個解決之道"},{"start":2083.639,"end":2096.813,"text":"那首先我想最重要的是說現法六三條所賦予立法委員的職責．執行權是一個非常重要我相信每一個委員都很在意他的執行尤其是總執行"},{"start":2098.975,"end":2114.893,"text":"當然委員會也是質詢．由於總執行 大家都不能一種政治攻防 因為很重要各黨的政治態度在那邊展現再一黨對於執政黨的挑戰 理所當然"},{"start":2116.109,"end":2132.367,"text":"那執政黨捍衛執政的邏輯與理念那也是相對理所當然這時候我們回頭來看待3月15號那件事情以前從來沒有發生過"},{"start":2133.499,"end":2154.719,"text":"那為何會發生這一點我們也希望以後不要再發生這是重點那為什麼會發生當然我們今天要談就是說到底始末是什麼在接下來談就是說當然要如何謀求不就知道至於以後應該如何來重新規範清楚"},{"start":2155.579,"end":2178.986,"text":"這才是我們今天要朝野行商重要的基礎我也不希望這個朝野行商會變成這個各黨在表態然後互相攻擊那個事情不是朝野商應該做的事情當然事情發生的時候各黨都有不同的態度和攻防但是今天我們是要講求把事實真相先還原出來"},{"start":2180.226,"end":2200.628,"text":"那以下我講的假如有不對的地方當然也歡迎各位執政那可能我會發一點比較長的時間我也知道副總召上次我們溝通的時候他有他的看法那各黨各有不同的看法那希望第一個還原真相"},{"start":2202.383,"end":2226.705,"text":"那為什麼以前不會發生這次會發生當然我們就知道本來早上最後一個質詢的陳寧飛委員後來因為他最後一個質詢那被告知韓院長中午有外賓所以他覺得他還沒有下午的時候他還有事情所以他議事人員走上去告訴他說可能你要換到下午去"},{"start":2228.294,"end":2250.715,"text":"陳庭輝委員也很配合他說他改回書面其實這個事情很簡單毫無爭議陳庭輝委員他一直認為他被誤解我想這個事情上次我們曾經過這改也沒關係所以他到徵意處也去改然後整個週末完成12點鐘全部完成陳庭輝改回書面"},{"start":2252.556,"end":2277.017,"text":"那接下來就是說我們routine的那議事人員就會升職後面要執行的人那這個時候發生一點小小的mistake通常議事人員當然我們都非常瞭解他們平常做事情都很認真而且緊盯著緊盯著整個議事能不能順暢比如說我們每天禮拜五有這個國際論壇"},{"start":2279.019,"end":2292.168,"text":"大家抽籤抽抽的 要幾個三分鐘第一個上台的人講的時候 議事委員就很緊張又看第二個有沒有進來 沒有馬上通知聯絡這是大家彼此良善的互動 維持議事的暢存"},{"start":2294.878,"end":2317.264,"text":"那他改了以後可能議事人員我們今天不追究任何責任議事人員的責任只是說把原因找出來以後如何防止那未來應該怎麼做那這個應該如何補救當然第一個就是說一我們看到就是說整個議場的大的看板上"},{"start":2318.084,"end":2342.615,"text":"在兩點十五分的時候才 十分鐘的時候才秀出來秀出來就下午 這個政經會已經趕快出面第一個是農民財 第二個洪聖翰 以下這一堆那到兩點十五分的時候 那當時呢 那就發生這個事情 有點骨牌效應 我也覺得很悶啊那我就打電話問農民財 欸 到底怎麼回事情"},{"start":2344.155,"end":2360.7,"text":"蔣麗芳對我講的話我講的是原話我說到底你幾點鐘做了通知你會看一星期因為陳情會已經改書面你兩碗換你炒一個他說兩點多一點我說到底幾點他說兩點多才搞不清楚"},{"start":2362.561,"end":2381.254,"text":"那我上次常委前央的時候議事人員有寫一個報告出來說是1點50OK沒有關係1點50到2點半大概有40分鐘當然每一個委員他覺得討結一個是誰我後面的時間我會把他掌握清楚"},{"start":2382.256,"end":2400.802,"text":"所謂的原來原來委員親自下趕快開車急奔回來立法院他還告訴我他還打電話一時才說他會慢三五分鐘請等一下代表他一直很在意他的執行也衝得很快回來當然我知道韓院長那時候永遠辦"},{"start":2403.191,"end":2427.343,"text":"應該也知道 也知道會比較慢 三五分鐘那兩禮拜的時候怎麼辦我聽秘書長講說他也提醒一下容文財會慢一點那是院長大概為了展現說這個等下他上台去組委員會的時候等下各黨不知道怎麼看待"},{"start":2428.183,"end":2446.832,"text":"院長為什麽遲到為什麽不上臺怎麽樣又有不同的解讀然後一似乎院長就在主委臺上去的那主委臺上去的時候就念了下去一似乎就發生所謂的骨牌效應就出來這裏面要牽涉的另一個人就第二個就是洪森漢委員"},{"start":2448.666,"end":2466.918,"text":"我問洪昌偉到底怎麼回事他說早上的時候有一次人員很負責告訴他笑他是第二個質詢可能是3點鐘左右希望他2點35分要進場這早上那都按不該時間"},{"start":2469.119,"end":2496.708,"text":"A到D 羅賓才委員可能講不到15分鐘提他提早進場但是他也他資金的獲取不是很完整有說前面還有一個陳情輝所以他2點30分進來的時候那整個他都他已經被跳掉那這當然我們清楚就是說以後大家發生一些不愉快的事情就找院長去理論"},{"start":2498.048,"end":2519.493,"text":"這是我所看到：所聽到：我問過的實際情形那今天實名而論的話 老實說 醫事人員及早在第二時間通知每一個委員 通知很清楚的話我想大家都會對於自己的執行權 非常在意要來問的都一定有存"},{"start":2520.56,"end":2536.192,"text":"不關於民運將能傳所以在這個時候我們要談就是說那這個事情應該怎麼辦那市場這個過去也有案例有案例那副委員上次的時候曾經告訴我說在"},{"start":2538.297,"end":2566.363,"text":"1984年1995年的時候最後一個廢棋也就是說院長我們在一起從事第二屆的最後一個廢棋那一次曾經發生過類似的事情但是以後就沒有發生了那時候情形是怎麼樣就是問題委員拿一些資料給我看我一看就懂了就是最後一次總執行的時候國民黨委員不問了"},{"start":2567.883,"end":2594.379,"text":"結果中央院長一路一念下去念下去大概二三十個全部跳掉這個問題大了到跳到周柏文的時候他就跳到周柏文那一爐爐他就跳不下去了那下一次院會的時候就是李秀園李秀園當前副總統他和邱惠哲委員占領主席台在argue你怎麼可以這樣"},{"start":2596.516,"end":2610.551,"text":"那就展開協商那協商的時候 當初有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有那是1995年的事情"},{"start":2617.677,"end":2646.646,"text":"那已經1995年以後為什麼沒有發生我想各位很清楚第二屆1993年進來到1999年這段時間也就是說1993到96這段時間一般的議事規則乃至於這個都是引用引用一般民營團體有一個很簡單的所以很多都沒有規範的很清楚那時候大家都大家都知道一開院會的時候院長你也知道一開院會的時候就是陳希懷"},{"start":2648.018,"end":2669.291,"text":"那時候院長說各位偉大政治家誠信沒有問題大家不要一直誠信那時候也可以一個人擋住所謂的宴會你要討論法案的時候大學討論主席要討論他就可以清點人數就開會下去了所以被批評為議事牛夫話那時候立法院說了很大的要求"},{"start":2670.151,"end":2684.301,"text":"所以開始1993以後大家各黨就開始研究立法院的國會無法那時候我是民進黨副總召也參與整個過程我想周恩來秘書長也很清楚這一段到1999年1月的時候移屬國會無法產生了"},{"start":2688.584,"end":2716.832,"text":"這裏面有議事規則重新規範的比較詳細然後也有立法院行為法很重要一個立法院執行刑事法立法院組織法立法院各委員會組織法所謂國會無法而且設立了整個國會圖書館一山中心法治局那1999年1月所簽署通過但是那時候執行刑事法的規定那時候的規定就是說執行長"},{"start":2718.755,"end":2725.645,"text":"的立法委員．不可以參與總執行這就很奇怪那時候也是通過"},{"start":2727.15,"end":2750.437,"text":"那因為我們幫個廢棄以後大家覺得執行權是每一個立法院很重要的怎麼會執政黨的委員不可以當董事長所謂改回就是說1995年1996年的時候改回就是幾問幾答三問三答那你第一個問完老毛行政院長連戰就回答第二個問你再回答"},{"start":2751.357,"end":2766.728,"text":"我想產生所謂的溫冬答詢溫冬答詢因為就是每一個人五分鐘在五分鐘各用各個五分鐘人家一上台講到天南地北把它講完欸 奇怪我問一個問題你怎麼回答你就十問十答"},{"start":2768.169,"end":2787.721,"text":"作為到2000年5月的時候一完執行刑事法第18條再重新改又改為集運集黨當然也有輸入執行也有國土執行集運集黨這時候有集運集黨以後就沒有所謂的上對下或是反執行的問題"},{"start":2789.683,"end":2814.42,"text":"早年我們在野的時候吳敦義院長前院長口才非常好蝦皮跟老蝦他一直幫你搶打大家都在逼江湖這是有一段歷史但是我們現在回到主題來講今天主題所謂這個執行練三分鐘不然就跳過去那是在執行實施法的立法院議事規則裡面28、29條是討論思想"},{"start":2819.522,"end":2843.256,"text":"在討論事項當中當然就是說我們在反審查法案的時候有上台法案討論事項在兩三項不夠條件後面還要列登記真正質詢就立法院沒有任何規範就營用 營用資那再回頭過來說說這樣的過程為什麼從劉仲恩院長那一次事件以後到今天將近30年從來沒有發生過問題"},{"start":2846.505,"end":2865.591,"text":"因為後來包括劉聰雄院長自己本身王院長至於孫家瑜院長尤其是院長都知道都沒有來趕快通知稍微等一下甚至說沒休息先讓他等一會因為盤謝局才趕快跳掉所以都是相關無事"},{"start":2866.391,"end":2890.138,"text":"甚至也發生過我現在提的例子就是說2014年的時候2014年時任立法院廖政錦在總裁選舉的時候遲到了很吵架那我們當場就大家簽一個草尾協商就等一下我會發給各位看這個草尾協商就是這一份簽名的人有我和費永泰2014年費永泰應該是國民黨幹事長"},{"start":2893.68,"end":2902.907,"text":"略經臨時欽擋．所以同意邀政委員繼續執行．鼓證執行更有名的一個案例應該是．2012的時候．2012行政院長施恩昌．"},{"start":2915.265,"end":2936.541,"text":"2021��2021的施政章（黑字章就是疫情更嚴重的時候（發生桃園旅館改為3加11那個事情（還有疫苗的問題等等（所以黃國昌委員曾經談過就是說（總之以前不是只有一個專案報告（那次沒有錯（所以總之是以外3個專案報告（"},{"start":2938.442,"end":2956.849,"text":"第一個專案報告是什麼這個專案先來報告這個3加11的專案報告是在那年9月17號有時候那一次專案報告是說我們黨占領主義台你這專案報告寫得太RAF不給書院長上去專案報告"},{"start":2957.847,"end":2979.614,"text":"可是那時候有4個報告 總之總共有4個報告 大家協商簽名的第一個專案報告就是9月17日3加11的專案報告第二個就是疫苗的專案報告是9月22日第三個是9月23日疫苗追加醫生報告再來一個總質詢 總共1個總質詢3個報告"},{"start":2985.253,"end":3005.486,"text":"第一個9月17日3加11那個報告 國民黨認為那3加11寫的不夠理想再出一台 不讓你報告那接下來往下跳了 第二個專案報告就來了9月22 那是草牆嘛 都往下走了疫苗的專案報告 站下來之後 預算追加"},{"start":3006.647,"end":3026.709,"text":"再總執行 換到9月24日總執行那一次 國民黨再占領主席臺所以總報告事項以後就沒有進行最後一次 就最後一次的時候 9月28日總執行因為報告事項處理完畢 就開始進行總執行"},{"start":3029.676,"end":3055.699,"text":"令總盛行的時候第一個上臺的是民眾黨邱顯智上臺問了五分多分鐘的時間國民黨在底下鬧乃至於用呼喚器衝我後來說邱委員邱顯智委員問我五分多分鐘以後問不下去他說好他就下臺接下來那個"},{"start":3057.683,"end":3076.782,"text":"那位委員 陳醫生委員都在台下他們都喊到他不上台 一路跳跳了一路跳跳 後來後來那位委員再找我說我稍微那個不是 我吃飯會傻 沒關係 別嚴謹"},{"start":3081.793,"end":3099.007,"text":"這不是 這是講事實我講錯了都可以更正所以老費就跟我講說欸 不行老柯 我沒有總知情我說你自己不上台啊啊 好啦好啦那他這個潮流協商就這一份的潮流協商等一下都發給大家就是說 有關於齁"},{"start":3101.98,"end":3129.455,"text":"科團團同意恢復9月28日執行．並依議事處原地名單順序．10月8日重新開始執行不管費用太矮陳一貞被挑滾重新再來這個是一個處理方式因為我發現 坦白講我們共同維護一個現法所賦予的執行權這是我們共同目標今天也不是說我給你繞回然後是誰對誰錯今天不爭辯這個我們是要把事情 圓滿解決"},{"start":3133.857,"end":3156.744,"text":"藝術規則也有慣例 也有到什麼協商等等我比較期待就是說我們今天大家能不能想一想副分局總召跟我談的案例是30年前以後的案例以後就不會再發生因為當主席的人都知道怎麼去處理啦有時候休息一下 有時候給我休息一下 有時候淡一下有時候 劉昌文院長就進去休息"},{"start":3157.95,"end":3169.724,"text":"有關院長在處理議事爭議很大的時候他曾經 我想藍院長你也碰過那一個法院處理爭議很大的衝突的時候他說休息10分鐘結果一個禮拜都不出來"},{"start":3171.902,"end":3186.857,"text":"這個過去這個案例大家講好再來開會那我是覺得3月15號那個總之情有一些mystic中間有一環節是稍微有一點差錯這可以調整改進的"},{"start":3189.131,"end":3212.125,"text":"重點為了這件事 大家這樣亂來亂去 藍綠各自動員我覺得話講完 上次我講完以後就不再發言我希望趁這一次 我把我看到了我覺得應該怎麼處理 向各位兩邊來就策重點 讓最後 那天大家周外台秘書長有講這個可以行官也可以處理"},{"start":3214.466,"end":3238.405,"text":"那當然黃昌偉說沒有關係他尊重反院黨的態度那實質的民進黨的態度黃昌昌本來就是說他認為這個要重新再來應該重新再來那也尊重反院黨的態度那現在黃昌偉又變更了沒有關係我們講最終極的態度"},{"start":3240.046,"end":3263.78,"text":"那上次我們看到﹐紅中﹐總召也是講說做總理就好那今天是不是大家共同的想出一個方法那也給韓院長一個才是﹐一個空間啦我這次當然這只剩下我對面的3位﹐國民黨的黨團代表尤其副總召這個﹐請你再思考一下"},{"start":3268.038,"end":3292.816,"text":"謝謝柯總召的發言接下來我們請副總召請洪書記長感謝院長再一次召開這個協商剛剛我們沒有打斷讓柯建民總召講了一個人快了20分鐘暢所欲言但是到目前為止我還是沒有聽懂到底重點是什麼"},{"start":3293.891,"end":3306.759,"text":"重點到底是什麼怪了沒收質詢怪了議事人員說不追究責任但是通篇沒有講說到底當天該在現場的委員為什麼沒有應該在開會的時間到現場很簡單的道理嘛"},{"start":3314.424,"end":3338.013,"text":"沒關係剛剛柯總召您暢所欲言現在我不會用20分鐘您放心但是我一個一個把它講出來第一當天到現場的委員應該要在就應該要在再者議事人員我們還是強調立法院是113席立法委員所組成的立法院我們議事人員都非常盡責也非常優秀但是議事人員不應該當一個"},{"start":3339.634,"end":3360.847,"text":"保姆 議事人員也不用當一個應該要提醒委員說什麼時候要到什麼時候不用到而議事人員做的是什麼是提醒告訴你質詢的順序並不是告訴你確切質詢的時間因為有可能有委員他即便前一個委員他30分鐘的質詢他也有可能沒有用完30分鐘"},{"start":3362.509,"end":3386.544,"text":"所以說議事人員在現場是告知我們各委員辦公室或是各委員質詢的順序並不是質詢你什麼時候我相信沒有一個議事人員敢大豬大魚打電話到委員辦公室講是說你就是3點上場 絕對不會所以內行人不用講外行話今天也不用把責任推給議事人員更何況議事人員當天在上一次的協商的時候就已經把紀錄給"},{"start":3388.706,"end":3406.281,"text":"秀出來至少議事人員在上午通知一次下午通知一次一天裡面通知兩次下午應該要質詢的委員而且全部都有告知順序所以簡單來講現場委員沒有在是委員的責任在者"},{"start":3407.386,"end":3422.761,"text":"如果說剛剛柯總召講的那柯總召今天朝野協商我想尊重一個開會的程序尊重院長召開會議今天柯總召我們這個吳思堯委員是最先到場之後我們也都陸續到場"},{"start":3424.882,"end":3450.367,"text":"開會的時候就是要坐在現場所以不然你也不知道什麼時候你會來發言非常好所以我也希望未來所有的委員都以柯總召今天的表現為標杆柯總召都可以提早10分鐘到來把握自己開會的權利就不用再講是說你自己本身沒有到然後你現在在講是說要回返再者我覺得最重要的是什麼"},{"start":3451.167,"end":3458.242,"text":"每一次院長在主持行政院院長施政報告進行質詢的時候都有宣告事項"},{"start":3459.652,"end":3477.682,"text":"來我直接清楚明白念給大家聽院長就是主席的施政報告事項裡面講說在進行質詢之前先做下列兩項宣告其中第二項一登記次序輪到質詢之委員如不在場已放棄質詢論採聯合質詢時其中質詢委員如不在場亦已放棄質詢論詢答時間不予併入"},{"start":3487.273,"end":3514.553,"text":"所以每一次院長在召開我們的行政院長施政總質詢的時候是不是都有做這個宣告事項有那請教今天是大家不尊重我們自己共同選出來的院長嗎還是根本聽都沒在聽明明都已經有跟你同意有跟你提議你自己沒有到現場那沒有到現場就是如果輪到質詢的委員如不在場就已放棄質詢論"},{"start":3516.354,"end":3534.176,"text":"我想我們的議事人員或說我們的院長應該沒有責任或沒有義務要去一個一個去問說你今天沒有在現場的委員你到底是要放棄質詢還是不放棄質詢更何況今天如果說真的我們到現在還看到民進黨團對於院長的不尊重"},{"start":3535.359,"end":3551.117,"text":"到現在還講說是院長沒收質詢我想自己沒有在現場就不是院長沒收質詢而是因為你沒有在場院長念了三次之後你仍沒在現場最後我只想"},{"start":3553.004,"end":3581.209,"text":"既然要說共同維護我們的議事規則跟共同維護憲法保障的權利我覺得大家都應該第11屆的國會大家展現新的民意所以如果未來你自己委員30分鐘的質詢你自己要縮減成15分鐘你自己的委員明明可以口頭質詢你改成書面質詢然後改成書面質詢之後還對外對媒體講是說是因為被院長沒收質詢怕了"},{"start":3581.869,"end":3585.873,"text":"所以我改成書面質詢我覺得這也是是是而非"},{"start":3588.508,"end":3613.431,"text":"對 我也聽不懂啊因為就是有貴黨團的委員有提出這樣的一個講法所以今天竟然柯總召也聽不懂說有這樣的講法我們也聽不懂啊我覺得也非常的訝異啊竟然有委員講說他改成書面質詢是因為被韓國瑜院長沒收質詢怕了所以說他至少提出書面質詢有質詢到我覺得這種雞飛城市是是而非的言論我們不能再有"},{"start":3614.144,"end":3632.978,"text":"那我也在這邊再提啊院會跟委員會是不同的所以我這邊也先破題啊可能等一下牧師要委員會提說啊 洪孟楷委員你上禮拜四在國防外交委員會你也有在補的部分本席再一次的強調喔委員會跟院會是完全不同的概念"},{"start":3633.618,"end":3647.93,"text":"院會開始的時候：會有主席宣告事項：質詢未到者勢同趣全：但委員會沒有：而且以前的委員會更盡責的：還有兩輪發言：三輪發言：所以針對委員會不用拿來做一樣的類比"},{"start":3648.931,"end":3672.062,"text":"而我們現在探究的就只是一個大是大非既然已經在這個上禮拜五院會的時候有確定上一次會議的議事錄的話我想議事規則該怎麼規定就怎麼做那我們後續依法行政有法可循我想這才是我們面對新國會大家共同三個黨團共同遵守的一個目標以上謝謝"},{"start":3673.743,"end":3694.856,"text":"謝謝紅書記長的發言副總召跟林副書記長就紅書記長代表了我們請國昌總召請表示意見謝謝謝謝院長老實說我有點不太瞭解今天到底要協商什麼事情"},{"start":3696.13,"end":3723.238,"text":"但是院長有通知基於對院長的尊重所以人還是來了我們黨團有討論過了我們的立場是如果是要討論那天有人時間不在沒有質詢的事情我們黨團的立場就是按照議事規則走沒什麼好協商的"},{"start":3724.355,"end":3744.344,"text":"我先把結論講在前面因為其實那天的爭議跟我們一點關係也沒有我們既不是人不道的人也不是提出什麼指控的人所以我們大概就表達這樣的看法只是後來發生這個爭議"},{"start":3746.704,"end":3768.571,"text":"我們後來就去找就到底發生什麼事那我後來看說有人說院長禮拜五下午已經要出去玩還是要去喝酒我看院長也沒有出去玩也沒有去喝酒啊人在立法院裡啊那第二個我困惑的事情是說說周萬來秘書長有在旁邊提醒你要先休息"},{"start":3769.636,"end":3778.287,"text":"我看也沒有這樣的事啊因為我從外面得到媒體上面在散播的一些訊息結果發現竟然全部都是假訊息"},{"start":3780.021,"end":3797.372,"text":"所以我就覺得有一點覺得怪那天早上又說你要接待外賓所以本來應該可以早上質詢的委員沒有質詢但我負責任的去看那天早上質詢的時間點王宏威委員質詢的時間已經是12點08分了"},{"start":3801.414,"end":3827.879,"text":"那12點08分不就是應該要休息嗎還是本院的議事規則是說12點08分如果有委員希望質詢可以繼續下去大家不要休息那如果有這樣子規則的話可能也拜託院長跟秘書長跟讓其他黨團的成員知道以後大家就一樣的規則嘛比照辦理那"},{"start":3829.577,"end":3852.407,"text":"所以最後針對這個事情說你疏於督導願務又不熟悉議事運作枉顧立委執行權益我大概負責任的把過去發生的一些事看完了因為我們黨團成員大家討論發現沒有這樣子的事項所以我們的態度"},{"start":3853.047,"end":3877.714,"text":"是覺得這個事情有什麼好諮詢的．有什麼好協商的．就按照議事規則走只不過說最後 最後就是說我上次 院長基於善意找大家來稍微商量我們的立場沒改變你如果要問本黨團的爭議就這個事情不要浪費大家的勞力時間費用"},{"start":3879.762,"end":3880.243,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3897.936,"end":3911.047,"text":"之前我公開說過為了要給你最大迴旋的空間所以你如果有什麼特別的考慮要做什麼特別的處理我們黨團也會尊重以上說明如上"},{"start":3926.616,"end":3955.292,"text":"我們先請施由幹事長來謝謝院長謝謝各黨編珍貴的時間今天大家坐在這裡就是依據我們立法院的質詢行事法68條為了協商議案或是為了解決爭議事項得由院長或各黨團向院長請求進行黨團協商所以民主進步黨團我們也循這個程序然後正式去函給院長那謝謝院長今天就邀集了這個協商"},{"start":3956.042,"end":3980.696,"text":"今天在解決的就是爭議事項所以這是各黨團共同大家一起來解決一起來發揮智慧3月15日發生的事情我想就是A、B、C三件事如果今天回過頭我覺得大家今天都是心平氣和我們希望能夠維持朝野的和諧A、B、C三件事就是A、釐清真相釐清當天發生的始末"},{"start":3982.033,"end":4001.138,"text":"B共同智慧地解決．能不能把3月15日的爭議．用一個智慧的方式．讓大家能夠獲得．各方都覺得舒服的解決．我相信院長也有這樣的智慧．C未來精進的方案．讓大家有所依循"},{"start":4002.398,"end":4027.408,"text":"那我在立法院的時間不長也不短大概我就是9年的時間那確實過去都沒有發生過這樣的狀況不管從王金平院長從蘇嘉全院長到游錫堃院長那立法院適用的都是同一套議事規則那也都是同樣的我們訓練有素而且都非常認真的議事人員同樣的作業規程"},{"start":4028.709,"end":4036.2,"text":"同樣的意識規則又同樣的作業程序（但是卻發生了以前沒有發生的事情（所以確實我們就可以應當來檢討（剛剛柯董昭花了蠻多的時間（還原當天的事實（我想我只要講一個重點（"},{"start":4043.792,"end":4060.256,"text":"好我就以我9年在立法院的經歷我真的是看見我們議事人員是非常的認真都會質詢的順序不需要議事人員來提醒因為質詢的順序都會有公文書大家很清楚的知道但是質詢的時間就有賴議事人員來協助提醒"},{"start":4064.937,"end":4082.473,"text":"這一直是這樣子我也真的很感謝議事員都會提早告訴我的辦公室委員今天大概是下午幾點幾分這些的提醒我們都非常的感謝那當天在這個過程當中當然也是一連串的早上有院長接見外賓然後陳廷飛趕書面"},{"start":4084.435,"end":4093.1,"text":"然後到下午羅明財委員及時趕不回然後才有這連續的事情所以我覺得我們今天在這裡就很和氣也不用說是誰遲到誰不在場我們從以前到現在我們都知道質詢時間委員們就是要在議場但是準備時間大家都在院區在自己的辦公室"},{"start":4108.81,"end":4114.879,"text":"看螢幕然後隨時緊盯這也是為什麼我們立法院花了民脂民膏我們有472臺電視"},{"start":4118.723,"end":4139.931,"text":"在立法委員的每一個辦公室包括公共空間從中心大樓、青島一館、二館再到議場就是院區立法院有472臺電視就是要協助立委跟幕僚可以隨時掌握議事程序然後知道我什麼時候要依時間"},{"start":4141.932,"end":4150.962,"text":"按部座就班的到你的會場不管是院會或者是委員會所以這都是長久以來大家非常"},{"start":4152.242,"end":4163.206,"text":"施以為常這就是國會的日常只是就不免當天就是一連串的意外我覺得現在也不要去指責誰也不要指責院長也不要指責議事人員當然我也覺得不要去指責這些他們認知上是依時間到場的委員不要再指責我們就希望釐清事實然後解決之道然後未來怎麼樣大家可以改善"},{"start":4177.731,"end":4188.701,"text":"所以講到這裏我就要提出剛剛柯總召當然也有提到過去都有案例不管是廖政錦委員2014年9月19日王金平院長他是現場協商有費鴻泰、柯建民、葉金寧委員共同簽字各黨團同意廖委員政錦繼續進行政黨協商這個是過去有這樣子的一個"},{"start":4205.859,"end":4217.285,"text":"案例在又或是2021��2021年10月5號（這是由錫堃院長任內（是經黨團協商朝野協商（也是各黨編簽字的（也恢復了"},{"start":4218.776,"end":4241.175,"text":"費鴻泰委員的質詢權所以都有過去的經驗跟慣例說大家只要朝野和諧朝野協商大家都願意那是可以來恢復質詢的時間不管是發生在廖政錦委員或是費鴻泰委員身上立法院都做到了這是第二件事情那第三件事情我想在不好意思我也比較"},{"start":4242.535,"end":4246.918,"text":"明天就是總質詢的最後一天 它是司法法制組那明天就是依這個順序大概是結束的時間一直到鄭正前委員"},{"start":4260.865,"end":4260.945,"text":"國民黨圖權級委員"},{"start":4283.492,"end":4298.309,"text":"明天的時間是非常的available也剛剛好不會去增加議事人員更多的loading另外再排一天的時間如果明天可以的話當然就是一個很好的時間又或是院長您主持您認為要禮拜五再排也可以"},{"start":4300.692,"end":4318.408,"text":"這是一個大家共同和和氣氣解決這個問題我覺得大家將心比心有一天總會有一些一連串的意外事件發生在你我的身上也許時間就是這樣但是每一個委員都同等的認真在準備他的珍貴的質詢時間我相信院長能夠有這樣的智慧我相信各黨團的黨編都能夠有這樣的同理"},{"start":4324.514,"end":4326.896,"text":"紅術委長和首席總長我們就是差不多重點講了麻煩你 謝謝"},{"start":4344.364,"end":4354.518,"text":"請林思明首席副書長發言是謝謝院長副院長我想首先我要回應施堯今天這件事情不是爭議事件"},{"start":4355.816,"end":4379.794,"text":"我想這件事情很明顯這不是爭議事件第二個我覺得我們立法院的整個開會的程序我們依照意識規則沒有模糊的空間怎麼還有好像在打混帳一樣說沒有質詢到點名過了還可以說我要回覆質詢我想我們一個新的國會正如孟凱書記長剛才講的我們應該有新的氣象所以沒有模糊的空間"},{"start":4381.53,"end":4400.391,"text":"第三個我是覺得說﹐如果說﹐剛才是要講的﹐我們要更精進﹐我們的國會相關規定的話﹐我想民進黨如果認為要精進的話﹐你認為我們的議事規則﹐哪裡有不妥當的﹐民進黨可以提出修法﹐"},{"start":4401.52,"end":4430.608,"text":"截至目前為止我個人是覺得我們這幾年來運作的都很順暢所以議事規則好像也沒有大問題應該不用精進其實我是認為我剛才跟國昌的想法一樣我不曉得今天為什麼還要協商都已經翻頁翻篇了今天還要說要協商要恢復諮詢權其實我個人是覺得院長今天這件事情這幾位委員在第一時間當下重重的打了院長一拳"},{"start":4431.397,"end":4434.225,"text":"你現在跟院長講說 院長你要給我再回復我的質詢權"},{"start":4435.782,"end":4461.401,"text":"我想任何人都應該沒有辦法由這個牙亮來做這樣的一個讓這幾位委員恢復資訊權每位委員剛才你講一直講說真相真相的大家都已經表態非常清楚了所以這個真相是怎麼樣大家都一旦全民都會去檢視大家都知道不用再這個今天再一直講那是怎麼樣過去怎樣我想我們還是這個按照議事規則來走"},{"start":4464.062,"end":4465.405,"text":"那剛才我 剛才那個"},{"start":4467.182,"end":4493.711,"text":"柯總召提到說我們這個總質詢只有如果登記發言的時候只有規定說我們在討論事項就28條的時候在出席委員請用發言因親自向主席來藝術簽名登記那經發言登記主席唱名三次的在場的事為棄權只有在這個這個條文立法院議事規則第28條有規定但是總召我要提醒你"},{"start":4494.631,"end":4520.8,"text":"我們歷年來我剛才孟愷講的我們在一開始我們就主席就已經宣布宣告事項就已經提了經過三次點名你唱名沒來你就視為放棄那我想我們法律很清楚法律規定說法律有規定的就依照法律法律沒規定就依照慣例嘛慣例都是這樣啊更何況當天就已經宣告我們今天這個議事的一個程序是怎麼樣講得很清楚了"},{"start":4521.978,"end":4549.727,"text":"我們哪有什麼模糊的空間說要恢復質詢權呢我想如果說立法院可以這樣做的話我想沒有辦法對全民做交代以上 謝謝謝謝林思明首席副主管發言我們現在請傅坤吉總統第一次發言謝謝院長院長在要發召集通知本席覺得很好奇為什麼還要開會"},{"start":4551.445,"end":4579.894,"text":"但院長給我一個說法所以我們今天國民黨還是出席院長的說法是希望草野能夠和諧大家還是能夠來這裡表述清楚讓全民能夠更加的瞭解所以我們今天基於尊重院長副院長我們今天還是出席我們要再次強調立法院它是一個百分之百民意的機構所有草野政黨加起來的民意就是百分之百"},{"start":4581.9,"end":4609.117,"text":"臺灣全體人民的民意選出來的國會議員在這裡執行職務什麼叫執行職務除了監督政府有沒有施政效力有沒有好好做事有沒有腐化還要爭取各代表區地方民意所要爭取的建設但是開宗民意執政者"},{"start":4610.626,"end":4637.894,"text":"就是在做施政國會議員是來做監督不管執政黨在野黨就是來監督的如果執政黨監督的好這個政權沒有腐化他應該是不斷的堆疊他民意的支持能夠得到更多更多人民給他鼓掌我們看這一次的事件"},{"start":4639.399,"end":4665.267,"text":"本席是實在覺得今天實在是還要討論這個事情我們真的很詫異因為民進黨你第三次執政連續執政你第三屆連續執政為什麼還要把所有的責任推到我們這些議事人員身上你身為一個國會議員你沒有充分的養成訓練嗎"},{"start":4666.96,"end":4695.259,"text":"你不知道什麼叫議事規則嗎不了解什麼叫人民的托付嗎不了解你該做什麼事情嗎還要國會的這些議事人員來當保姆我想大家都不斷地在強調這個事情本席真的很好奇那以後大學聯考晚一點到可不可以重考也有所有的我們國營的"},{"start":4697.469,"end":4726.136,"text":"這些考試 高普考是不是可以重考所以對這樣的一個 比較奇特的一個說法我們一直沒有辦法說我們是要在整個國家 我們是國會要代表大家來執行職務我想在這裡 院長我們國民黨團要特別表達我們也對柯總召"},{"start":4727.557,"end":4749.415,"text":"也表達無限的晚席因為柯總召在這裡實屆了最資深的前輩實屆了也伴隨了民進黨第三次的執政連續執政但是我們要看一看在柯總召帶領之下大母雞帶了這些小雞這小雞有沒有跟上來"},{"start":4751.064,"end":4777.017,"text":"身為國會議員本來就是半年一度的執行權半年才一次去執行行政院的院長這麼珍貴的執行權你有沒有好好的把這個政府能夠監督起來不要讓他變成有腐敗的情況發生結果我們現在看到整個國會的亂象30分鐘一次半年才一次執行行政院的院長"},{"start":4779.471,"end":4805.264,"text":"動輒30分鐘改15分鐘 15分鐘再改書面放棄你的執行權所以把整個立法院的整個執行的次序 整個大亂不是只有議事人員不生其擾本需要特別強調 本黨要特別強調不是議事人員不生其擾其他各政黨也不生其擾因為你們一直在換時間 要改書面"},{"start":4809.056,"end":4832.148,"text":"等於是各政黨 今天是在野黨配合執政黨的國會議員不斷地在調整時間這是我們看到 全力使人腐化而且我今天為柯總召最不值的事情柯總召 這樣去呵護這些小雞愛之 恃足以害之這一頁早就翻過去 為什麼還要討論而且"},{"start":4834.741,"end":4857.041,"text":"本席要在這裏特別強調柯總召跟我30年老朋友早上拿了這一張要給我簽我真的是沒有辦法簽希望我能夠同意讓民進黨立委郭國文委員賴慧媛委員林柱英委員洪森翰委員"},{"start":4858.004,"end":4883.481,"text":"在3月15日發生的特例裏面能不能再讓他們有執行權這四位委員但是本身很好奇這是3月15日發生結果我們在3月22日的運會質詢也是半年一度對行政院長的質詢今天柯總召所提出來的四位民進黨立委裏面在上個禮拜五"},{"start":4884.634,"end":4913.834,"text":"這四位立委又三位放棄了他的執行權又改成書面那我們今天到底在爭執什麼到底在爭執什麼郭國文委員上個禮拜五也改成書面賴慧媛委員也改成書面林楚瑩委員也改成書面對那為什麼說他們原本就是要做書面的是說什麼壓力還要回來執行"},{"start":4916.195,"end":4945.596,"text":"所以我們在這裡要特別的跟大家報告我覺得我們就順著我們順著憲法賦予我們的權利也有我們的意識的規則該怎麼走我們就怎麼走因為這樣下去的話整個次序會大亂我認為本心認為這不要傷大家的感情這一頁早就翻過去有太多的事情未來要討論請院長這個事情我們看我們就盡快就結束好不好"},{"start":4948.044,"end":4970.846,"text":"總統二次發言,麻煩找我時間,謝謝剛才看傅文綺﹖很少這樣徵英為作﹖講得好像人模人樣的話那既然也在談到宿外裁判器﹖什麼民進黨團請用胡話﹖還有對我一番指教當然這個透過直播我先告訴你一件事情"},{"start":4973.451,"end":4980.876,"text":"隨便你 隨便你誰演的 誰演的你態度很清楚等一下有一個新的下個會期"},{"start":4982.453,"end":5004.706,"text":"至少我們會有一些改進的辦法在您離開之前,因為我們等一下要提一個修正案,就是下一個會期開始每一個委員會的時間就固定對,就是這個,以後就固定的話院長等一下,沒關係,國防委員要做不做都無所謂啦因為剛才我們也備了好一個署刑給院長,就是剛才那個案子"},{"start":5006.026,"end":5032.983,"text":"總是事情要解決他不圈的話他也會不圈當然他很不喜歡聽到我跟忽恩齊在對話郭昌文我先回答你你剛才說講的有些資訊可能不正確所以院長沒有去檢外賓這是院長檢外賓是院長自己講的所以先查清楚所以有關於有很多事實真相"},{"start":5034.183,"end":5054.154,"text":"陳秦峰委員的事情也要好清楚至於竹南委員．民進黨有沒有找院長稍等院長會回答所以你不必去對於很多事實真相然後你講到一副好像很無辜很公道的樣子這招委員不必再演了回頭再正傳"},{"start":5056.28,"end":5080.632,"text":"主席委員整個正經八百了我先回答一個簡單問題就好了你說我拿哪一張給你簽你要念也要念公平一點 裡面有突宣期委員我個人不是就因為今天要協商 我知道我想這個總要有一個諮詢所以過去幾天我都跟你溝通 我也跟韓院長溝通"},{"start":5082.233,"end":5105.632,"text":"你們兩黨講好 三黨講好 黃國昌委員尊重你的態度他這個東西當然能夠讓議法委員的執行權能夠恢復這個是過去也有案例 今天不是在這裡跟你講像馮孟凱 林世民講的那種好像非常真心八白的話"},{"start":5106.552,"end":5120.264,"text":"每次都是這樣練 到時候我講的案例都曹營祥全部可以讓他們回來我們講的老朋友 你就講三十多名老朋友 我就講老朋友自己應該講的多"},{"start":5124.067,"end":5144.783,"text":"你領導下的共產黨團總召事實上你都去思考有時候你應該冷靜一點很多不應該違憲亂政的事情違法事項當然憲法有衝突的你也要稍微冷靜一下思考那臺北沒有發聯網啦很多事情大家都等著這個藝術課和這個法律上來談"},{"start":5148.496,"end":5162.232,"text":"我每個禮拜都說得好 說大家 反正各位有案例 你說好啊來簽一簽就好我年薪五零兩天 你說OK今天早上有人給你簽的時候 你說人家把我收走就一直跑然後拿出來這裡奚落這是人講的話嗎 這像因為台灣黨"},{"start":5166.497,"end":5167.678,"text":"你確實把4加1本息現在是告訴你說"},{"start":5190.931,"end":5192.013,"text":"市委民進黨的立委是上個禮拜五"},{"start":5197.994,"end":5206.842,"text":"上禮拜五他原本就排書面對不對 我們圖全齊並沒有上禮拜排書面所以我們在這邊強調我感覺喔 院長我覺得這個沒有什麼好講啦我覺得這樣我覺得這樣講 我覺得這潑霧罵謙沒有意義啦這已經喪失了法律系統的尊嚴各位總召 各位總召你們都批評啊 我第一個"},{"start":5221.814,"end":5248.764,"text":"為了我講一句話沒有主席還沒有講完啦來我提一個solution等一下我提一個solution那今天再怎麼爭辯我想大家都沒有焦急也不是在這裡吵架誰都誰錯的問題因為這種事情很少發生過這種發生我們要檢討未來怎麼改進永比來我提出來嘛未來大概時間就像台北市議會一樣"},{"start":5250.563,"end":5265.716,"text":"我的15分鐘我沒有來你沒來就等到下一個就把這個15分鐘等到完結束再完練三次沒有就用下一次下一個我比一個例子這次總之詢陳永康委員30分鐘講5分鐘"},{"start":5269.793,"end":5288.786,"text":"那這20分鐘怎麼辦 剛好底下有人收工地址不上來所以以後把很多所可能發生的事情都把它堵截起來你那15分鐘就是一個禮拜的時間給我打架 這才是正辦法好不好那我再舉一個例子 因為說2月1號我們選舉政府院長的時候 下午不是選副院長"},{"start":5291.388,"end":5314.046,"text":"民進黨說楊岩他不進來那我們不知道到底要不進來我們也不敢去開票大家時間趕快開票大家把遊戲規則弄清楚這樣以後就不會有吵但是今天到這裡每一黨都有自己的論述發言但是請大家冷靜想一想立法委員的指引顯示大家要好好的如何去維護比較重要好不好"},{"start":5315.347,"end":5342.045,"text":"總到我裁決一下第一個我先跟大家報告一下今天為什麼要開這個會議是立法院民進黨黨團正式提議提議出來我必須要召開讓大家心中有這些想法可以放下來第二在從頭到尾開會的時候周恩來秘書長叫我說怎麼休息一會沒有我就問秘書長一件事我們所做的是不是一切合乎議事規則秘書長說是合乎的所以我們繼續往下走我要跟大家報告一下"},{"start":5342.805,"end":5344.447,"text":"為了杜絕未來再發生類似情況．提案．為補救今後無謂爭議．本席想在質詢程序上做改變"},{"start":5361.513,"end":5378.667,"text":"各黨團同意而後院會進行有關委員之質詢．或詢問時．由議事處依名單及順序明定其質詢．或詢問的起議時間如有委員未及時到場．．或提早結束質詢．則院會休息"},{"start":5382.008,"end":5411.488,"text":"等待下一位順位的委員由排定的質詢時間或詢問時間繼續開會然後進行質詢或詢問那這是文字化我口語化就是說你有15分鐘你3分鐘離開了還有12分鐘身為主席我們必須要等好等滿讓你整個完整15分鐘通通結束我們才會進行下一位的質詢那這樣的話就今後就再也不會有類似衝突了那這一點是我們提出一個"},{"start":5412.488,"end":5413.048,"text":"因為我剛才看到這個東西"},{"start":5430.876,"end":5444.664,"text":"我不知道今天要協商這個所以我沒跟黨團成員討論請院長見諒我們黨團內的民主我還是要尊重可能待會去跟大家討論他第二個事情是說"},{"start":5446.165,"end":5471.822,"text":"這到底要透過協商結論還是要透過議事規則的修改我是認為院長或許可能要再想一下因為這個協商結論的本身你在執行層面上馬上會出現很多問題什麼叫馬上會出現很多問題你認定的基準時點是什麼時候所謂認定的基準時點是順序排出來了以後那個時間點就要確定嗎"},{"start":5474.38,"end":5501.113,"text":"那如果接下來有四五個人全部都改書面質詢那所以我們現在的規則是接下來五個改書面質詢的時候那議場要要怎麼辦呢基準時點很重要喔因為不好意思喔請你尊重人家發言好不好我每次在講話你插什麼話啊你在講話我不是在插話嗎我再來 再一次 再一次"},{"start":5504.502,"end":5504.683,"text":"趕快離開 趕快離開"},{"start":5514.455,"end":5540.96,"text":"總統那既然 沒關係我繼續 大家齁還是要把情緒 和緩一點我提案呢 我當然要給他補充說明一下沒問題 總統沒關係 先徵詢我主席之後我再請你發言這樣啦齁 好 沒問題他當我們 個人想提出來齁我們 兩黨都在這裡 要簽的就簽嘛齁那當耳後的修法 那是耳後的事情嘛至少曹偉強 把遊戲規格先拎出來以前用曹偉強解決嘛"},{"start":5541.94,"end":5562.158,"text":"後來是用另外一個規則去解決但是我們未來怎麼做 這個協商我們先認定以後就好處理了阿姨要副主席引導的事情我們非常尊重她 因為我們非常習慣她這種行為請關掉麥克風這個沒有 這個有什麼好關掉 這個我是講的很直平"},{"start":5569.406,"end":5592.756,"text":"如果各位不簽我們就試著做做看好不好試著因為他剛剛講假設兩個狀況並不是也是會發生的也有可能院長他假設狀況我是提案的人當然我要把說明去的只是說謹於口頭之意施民進黨團就是沒了沒了就吵架了嘛那你改了不能臨時改了那把它不讓清楚"},{"start":5594.488,"end":5596.929,"text":"各總召所提的這個就是說﹖將來以後就盡量降低爭議﹖其實一勞永逸的"},{"start":5615.098,"end":5632.809,"text":"副總統你以後講話不要突然又丟起來好不好我們尊重院長召開朝野協商所以開始跟結束我們還是尊重院長但我真的在今天還是強調是說不要再請貴黨團不要再似是而非講院長沒收質詢我想"},{"start":5634.85,"end":5636.011,"text":"我最後補充一下我非常同意剛剛侯孟楷書記長說的"},{"start":5658.79,"end":5679.245,"text":"不要說誰是沒收質詢那同樣的請國民黨委員也不要說這些在場邊等候的委員叫做薪水小偷這樣也不對好嗎還有一件事情對不起主席剛剛我要澄清一下邱志偉賴會員林楚英他們在交通組剛剛副總召唸的他把文件唸錯了"},{"start":5680.886,"end":5707.193,"text":"這幾位委員他是原本在交通組就是書面不是這件事情他們把經濟組改成書面直至到今天為止洪森漢林楚英郭國文賴慧元包括國民黨的圖全級委員都沒有改成書面這個訊息要講清楚所以這個剛剛副總召在念這個這個是議事非常清楚的登記可能副總召這個盲中有錯看錯了"},{"start":5708.621,"end":5733.874,"text":"那第二件事情我也在這裡要表達一下這個遺憾因為各黨團的黨編來這裡協商都是有決定權都是能夠代表黨團來做處理如果黃國昌總召民進黨只有8席委員我們每一黨國民黨最多有52加2我們有51席如果黨編在黨團協商的大小事情都在這裡甩頭就走就說"},{"start":5734.654,"end":5759.395,"text":"我沒有回去 我要回去問問我的每一席委員那請問黨編做什麼好 黨團協商我想黨編還是有相當的智慧跟意識的經驗可以來協助代表當然有些東西要帶回去討論不是不行但是如果動輒這樣那我覺得黃國昌總召對於黨編的身份的扮演我是他的能力上我是大有質疑啦在這裡要補充一下 謝謝妳是說 妳看穿又說穿是吧"},{"start":5760.987,"end":5777.536,"text":"那謝謝各位黨團的幹部我們剛才所提的這個民進黨團所提的這個案子我們會請議事處人員再研議那另外一個將來而後為了避免這些所謂的爭議我們在質詢誠意上做了一些改變到時候再跟各黨團再來單獨報告好嗎好 非常感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":5781.676,"end":5783.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5803.728,"end":5804.109,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbcb96d4312eb21cb8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a68ac16dc2a4f820d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"13:36:53 - 13:45:25","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":512,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:45:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:36:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1531,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（13時36分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請法務部、內政部，通傳會副主委、內政部、金管會、數位部等代表都上來。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員午安。"],["林委員思銘：主委和各位次長大家午安。行政院在去年5月推出新世代打擊詐欺行動綱領1.5版，本席看到所匡列的預算，在112年編列了8.33億，113年編列了5.96億，合計14.29億的預算要來打詐，並且喊出上游清源減少受害者、下游清淤掃除詐騙集團！相較於行動綱領1.0版的經費只匡列1.28億，大概增加13.01億。但矛盾的是，我們看到去年一整年，國人被詐騙的金額累計高達88.78億元，創歷史新高；詐欺案件也高達3萬7,984件。另外，去年5月新草根影響力文教基金會公布的民調也顯示，有九成二的民眾接過詐欺電話。不管是在清除上游或是減少接觸的通流，或者減輕損害金流上面，看起來完全沒有效果。而監察院也在去年12月對行政院表示，政府打詐完全沒有有效的對策，這十幾億的預算，我們感覺就好像丟進海中，沒有激起任何的漣漪。","所以，我首先要詢問的是，我們這十幾億的預算中，有一個設備與場地設施的預算高達6.81億，這裡所謂的設備與場地設施的科目，包含通傳會、法務部、內政部、金管會都有使用到這個預算，目前執行的詳細內容，可否請主委及幾位次長來一一回答？先請法務部。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們112年的預算倒是沒有用在場地，都是用在臺高檢署跟調查局的設備方面，包括相關的蒐證、鑑識跟分析的工具……"],["林委員思銘：鑑識設備？"],["黃次長謀信：對，另外還有檢察官助理的費用，所以我們沒有用在場地費，只有設備費。"],["林委員思銘：好，再來請內政部說明。"],["李副署長西河：委員好。我們165這個部分是因為去年的進線數超過40萬，達到43萬，當時因為接線的人數不夠……"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["李副署長西河：我們去年增加9個人，所以我們需要整地的……我們花了500萬元整地跟700萬元在軟硬體設備。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["李副署長西河：因為165有4個工作組，一個是接外勤的，一個綜合歸納，一個電信股，一個網路股。"],["林委員思銘：所以是在設備跟人事費？"],["李副署長西河：設備是花了一千兩百多萬元，是在112年初……"],["林委員思銘：有使用到這筆經費嘛？"],["李副署長西河：對……"],["林委員思銘：就設備與……那場地設施費用有嗎？"],["李副署長西河：場地設施就是我們借的保一總隊的地，我們是借的。以上報告。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。好，那再請通傳會。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。通傳會是有補助1億0,350萬元，但是全部都花在三大電信業者的交換機房的伺服器，或者一些設備的購置、補助。"],["林委員思銘：是。沒有場地跟設施費嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：沒有。"],["林委員思銘：金管會有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會沒有用到這些預算。"],["林委員思銘：都沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們都是在監理上的措施。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。其實今天我為什麼問這個問題，就是我們發覺採買這些設備，或者是場地設施，檢方也用了很多的場地設施工作費。但是我剛才講越打越詐，完全沒有預期的效果，花了這麼多錢，沒有達到我們預期的效果，到底要如何來改善？這部分我希望各部會真的要更加地努力。","好，接下來我要請問通傳會，幾位部會請回。OK，好，謝謝。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：通傳會翁副主委，請問今年1月雲林地檢署依照加重詐欺洗錢等罪，起訴了21名透過製作使用俗稱黑莓卡、比特卡、漫遊等詐騙工具，過去3年來不法獲利達六億三千多萬元，甚至逃稅三千多萬元。我要問副主委，關於類似這種黑莓卡的漫遊卡，實名登錄的機制已經開始了嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們上個禮拜已經跟電信業者技術研討，已經確定只要在各個電信業者的交換機房端設置伺服器，然後配合移民署有一些資料的驗證，確實未來可以把黑莓卡在源頭就阻絕。"],["林委員思銘：不是，沒回答我的問題。就是說我們現在對於實名登錄的機制已經開始了嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：還沒，因為這個部分牽涉到我們要去取得移民署的一些資料，要有法律的授權。"],["林委員思銘：是，副主委，在今年的1月3號，某些臺灣的上網卡、漫遊卡、黑莓卡開始實施實名制。但是隨著總統大選的落幕，電信公司就發布最新聲明，宣布撤銷封鎖對臺灣漫遊上網卡的實名政策，你剛才講說沒有實施，但這是一個事實哦！這是真的哦！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我剛才講跟電信業者之間有研討了很多的技術，有的是從香港端請他們配合的電信業者來阻斷，但是這一部分涉及到國際漫遊，有困難。"],["林委員思銘：副主委，我再問你啦！就是說在過去你點名說目前只有中華電信提供相關的服務，那現在中華電信已經阻斷多少這種無實名制的SIM卡門號？你知道嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：初步看起來，從eSIM去切斷的、阻斷的部分是有25萬門。但是這個情形的話，還有其他的電信業者……"],["林委員思銘：所以中華電信還有提供這樣的服務？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我先跟委員報告，其實國際漫遊我們是尊重商業的協商機制，但是他到本國來提供服務，我們認為一定要去做KYC，使用者還是要做KYC……"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：所以說我們會持續精進，去跟電信業者開會，研討怎麼從技術的方法、源頭的方法來阻絕。"],["林委員思銘：所以中華電信到現在為止、到今天我問你為止，還繼續有這樣的服務？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：就香港聯通的部分已經沒有了。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["林委員思銘：其他的就還有？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：其他的部分，像香港Hutchison的部分還有，但是這個部分……"],["林委員思銘：副主委，因為時間的關係，我只是想告訴你，我剛才已經跟你說，利用這個手法來詐騙的金額非常高。我們還是希望通傳會就這個部分要有效地實施管制措施，否則這些不肖業者就利用這個漏洞來行詐騙之實，造成人民很大的損害，所以希望你加油啊！OK，好。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好，這個部分我們會繼續地努力"],["林委員思銘：OK！好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員改書面。","接著請游顥、游顥、游顥。游委員不在。","請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘。蔡委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐。鄭委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉。蘇委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純。何委員不在。","請王美惠、王美惠、王美惠。王委員不在。","請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡。張委員不在。","請陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷。陳委員不在。","請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之。葉委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。現在處理臨時提案3案，請議事人員宣讀。現場如果不相干的人員，可以先行離開，謝謝。","一、","虛擬貨幣每年在國內仍有相當多國人投入交易，金管會作為主管機關，亦在去年發布《金融監督管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務事業（VASP）指導原則》，但因虛擬幣相關的周邊概念繁多，市場上對虛擬貨幣相關知識不足，造成許多投資人最終只能認賠收場，同時虛擬貨幣也淪為詐騙集團下手目標，近期刑事警察局發現被害案件中以虛擬貨幣為詐騙目標的案件有顯著提升，按外國法例如美國已將虛擬幣定性成「證券」，但在我國仍然定性不明，爰提案要求金管會研議如何有效進行市場管理、保障投資人並加強反詐騙及相關宣導之實際作為，並於1個月內向財政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：顏寬恒　　賴士葆　　李彥秀　　林德福　　羅明才","二、","本院伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員，鑒於詐騙案件增長迅速，內政部警政署、金融監督管理委員會雖各公布疑似詐騙帳號及我國合法證券、投顧、投信公司名冊以供民眾查詢，然資源分散各單位網頁且無查詢欄位，不利民眾使用，為有效打擊詐騙、保障國人財產安全，請相關單位整合集中相關資訊並建置完善查詢系統，以利民眾查詢。","提案人：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　李坤城　　王世堅","三、","本院伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員，根據聯合徵信中心資料統計，台灣男性每人平均持卡3.94張、女性4.34張，顯見國人使用信用卡已普遍。然一旦錢包失竊、遺失仍須個別向金融機構掛失，顯不符合金融便利原則，爰提案要求金管會成立單一掛失窗口提供民眾便捷金融服務，降低盜刷風險。","提案人：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　李坤城　　王世堅"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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13:36:46","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":420,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:36:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:29:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1493,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（13時29分）謝謝主席。有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["林委員楚茵：還有法務部黃常次。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["林委員楚茵：還有銀行局莊局長。"],["主席：請莊局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員午安。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：大家辛苦了。因為打詐這件事情是全民所關注的，所以到現在都一點半了，包括主席在內都還沒辦法休息，我儘量把握時間。有關打詐的部分，其實我滿開心，就是現在各部會都動起來，但我相信不論是法務部或金管會都知道，一旦要打詐，帳戶是非常重要的，根據現在的洗錢防制告誡，我們都知道人頭帳戶已經成為打擊詐團非常重要的依據。由於現在新修訂的法律是以人為單位，所以我想請教金管會主委，如果現在有一個A公司，他們已經被告誡了，認為這個公司的帳戶有問題，那麼A公司的負責人還能不能成立其他的帳戶？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前的管理好像沒有及於公司，所以跟委員報告，報告第15頁有特別強調，我們開始要加強企業戶開立帳戶的審查機制。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝你們有注意到這個問題。因為以人為主的時候，我們知道，現在人跟人都被盯得很緊；但如果我是一個公司的負責人，我現在用公司帳戶，我的A帳戶發生問題之後，我再去申請B帳戶跟C帳戶，依舊可以逍遙法外。我們很開心金管會現在有注意到這樣的問題。","接著要問法務部，在這整個過程當中，如果這個負責人名下的帳戶遭受到告誡的時候，那麼他現有的其他已經存在的帳戶會怎麼樣處理，或是去做怎麼樣的限制嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，如果他是被告誡的人，一旦進入第十五條之二第六項的這個辦法去處理的話，包括他本身所有的其他帳戶也一樣會受到限縮。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意就是已經開戶成立的都會被限縮？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員楚茵：現在就變成金管會這裡要特別注意，不要再讓他開新的？"],["黃次長謀信：這個辦法裡面……"],["林委員楚茵：現在金管會跟法務部或相關的單位，兩邊有聯絡跟聯繫嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：不僅，其實它的辦法裡面就規定清楚了，他未來新開戶都會受到限制的。"],["林委員楚茵：所以這部分會直接跟金管會有一個規定上的交流、交通跟聯絡？也就是說，一旦曾經進入第十五條之二第六項，他的帳戶被限縮功能之後，不僅原有的帳戶會被限制，他的新帳戶也不能開？確定？"],["黃次長謀信：就是銀行第一線可以做一些處理，有些帳戶是不能開的，譬如虛擬帳戶就不能夠再開，要關閉掉；實體的銀行帳戶，法規裡面也有一些規範，可以不讓他開。"],["林委員楚茵：好，主委要補充嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：請委員給我們一點機會，讓局長跟你報告我們最近做的事情。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，有關告誡戶，到底是怎麼執行，我們會跟法務部再洽談；至於金管會，我們之前也注意到公司戶被列為警示帳戶的這個問題，所以已經請銀行公會去研議。如果這個公司戶已經是警示帳戶，這個負責人再去開其他新的戶頭時，到底要做怎麼樣的監控，我們正在請公會研議。"],["林委員楚茵：通常警示帳戶的存在有很多的狀況，不一定真的是所謂的詐騙案，但它可能就會流於一個破洞或破口，希望銀行局可以跟銀行公會多做瞭解；另外就是掃蕩的時候，當然金管會也做了很多，我也必須給予肯定。但是在這樣的過程中，銀行打詐，我們也要有一些新招，包括防止所謂的人頭帳戶。我對前面幾項都沒有意見，不過對資本額比較低的小企業，或者它是共用辦公室，我們知道，新型態的營運模式有很多的樣態，這個部分是不是也能夠有更明確的樣態規範？因為我在PTT看到有一些行員說，現在好像變成他們是要去做決定的那個人，對於這樣的樣態，若是過於籠統模糊的話，就會把一人資本的小公司，也打入人頭帳戶。這個部分請主委說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，也就是過猶不及都要很小心。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為現在的公司登記制，其實就是一個形式要件，如果大家對這部分能夠共同合作，應該就能夠讓這些問題更加釐清，包括局長剛剛跟您報告請公會研議的部分，我們將在跨部會平臺上來討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好！本席特別點出這個部分，就是我們現在已經大概瞭解到詐騙集團的樣態，最後會需要一個處理這些金流、這些資金的帳戶，如果公司成為他們可以從這個方向去開設各個人頭帳戶，那麼這個部分確實要把它防堵起來；可是對小型、微型的公司又該如何保障，讓他們不會在開戶或設立帳戶當中遭到額外的困擾，這個部分恐怕就要請金管會、法務部相關單位，大家一起來做橫向的聯繫。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可能要從那種疑似的態樣中去歸類。"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["黃主任委員天牧：才比較不會傷及無辜。"],["林委員楚茵：好，有關銀行局跟銀行公會所做的整體樣態的協商，或是瞭解，或是訂定法規，大概要訂多久的期程？"],["莊局長琇媛：公會現在已經有一些初步的規範，可是我們覺得有必要再精進，是不是再給我們一個月到兩個月的時間？"],["林委員楚茵：好，更進一步的規範出來時，再提供給財委會跟本席辦公室。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位質詢請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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公司已經被告誡了認為他的公司的這個帳戶有問題那麼這個A公司的負責人他還能不能成立其他的帳戶"},{"start":77.95,"end":91.17,"text":"目前的管理好像沒有沒有急於這個公式所以跟委員報告我們在15頁這邊有特別要強調我們開始要加強企業戶開地商戶的審查機制好因為謝謝你們有注意到這個問題因為你以人為"},{"start":93.974,"end":119.007,"text":"主的時候我們知道現在人跟人都被盯得很緊但是如果說我身為一個公司的負責人我先用公司帳戶我這個A帳戶發生問題之後我再去申請B帳戶跟C帳戶那麼他依舊逍遙法外所以說很開心金管會先有注意到這樣的一個問題那麼我就問法務部所以在這整體的過程當中那麼所以這個副城的名下如果他的"},{"start":119.987,"end":141.033,"text":"倉戶遭到告誡的時候那麼他現有的其他已經存在的帳戶那麼會怎麼樣處理或是怎麼樣去做一個限制嗎沒有他這個如果他是被告誡的人的話他一旦進入了15條之2第6項的這個辦法去處理的話包括他本身所有的其他帳戶也一樣會受到限縮"},{"start":141.653,"end":166.429,"text":"好,也就是言下之意已經開戶成立的都會被限縮但是現在就變成是金管會這裡要特別注意的是不要再讓他開新的兩邊其實是有一個現在金管會跟法務部或相關的單位是有一個聯絡跟聯繫嗎?不行,其實他的辦法的規定裡面就規定明清楚了他未來新開戶都會受到限制的"},{"start":166.749,"end":190.56,"text":"好,所以這個部分是會直接跟金管會有一個規定上面的交流、交通跟聯絡嗎?表示說他一旦他曾經進入了15條之2還是15條之2的第6項成為所謂的帳戶被限縮功能之後他原有的會被限制他的新帳戶也不能開"},{"start":191.3,"end":192.701,"text":"主委要補充嗎?好"},{"start":214.649,"end":239.803,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛告誡戶的部分的話到底怎麼執行我們會跟法務部這邊再洽談那至於金管會這邊的時候我們之前其實也有注意到有公司戶被列為警示帳戶的這個相關的問題所以現在我們已經請銀行公會去研議說如果這個公司戶已經是警示帳戶那這個負責人他再去開其他的戶頭或者是其他的"},{"start":240.503,"end":243.045,"text":"但是他可能就會流於一個破洞或破口我希望銀行局這裡可以跟銀行公會來做了解但另外一個就是說少盪的時候我們當然"},{"start":263.824,"end":286.536,"text":"儘管會做了很多我也必須要予以肯定但是在這樣的過程當中我們銀行打造我們有一些新招包括就是防止所謂的人頭賬戶那麼當然前面的幾項我都沒有意見不過有關於這個資本額比較低的小企業或者是說它是共用辦公室但是我們知道新型態的營運模式當中有很多的樣態"},{"start":287.637,"end":306.43,"text":"所以這個部分是不是也能夠有更明確的樣態的規範因為我在PTT看到現在有一些行員會說好像變成他們要去做決定的那樣的一個人那這樣的樣態如果過於龍頭模糊的時候就會把所謂一人資本的小公司好像也打成了人頭賬戶這個部分 來 主委"},{"start":309.097,"end":331.926,"text":"對委員其實這也就是過猶不及都要很小心那我覺得當然因為我們現在的公司登記制其實就是一個形式要件了所以這部分大家如果能夠共同合作能夠讓這些問題能夠更釐清我想包括剛剛局長跟您報告的那個工會的研議那我們跨部會在這個平台上再做討論好"},{"start":333.627,"end":348.597,"text":"本席特別點出這個部分就是我們都知道現在已經了解到大概詐騙集團的樣態最後他會需要一個處理這些金流這些資金的這樣一個帳戶那麼公司如果成為一個他們可以"},{"start":349.958,"end":372.387,"text":"有這個方向去開設各個人頭帳戶那確實這個要把它防堵起來可是呢對於小型微型的公司又如何保障讓他們不會成為說他們在開戶或設立帳戶當中又變成額外的困擾那這個部分恐怕就要有請金管會、法務部相關的單位要大家一起來做一個連向的橫向的聯繫"},{"start":374.212,"end":377.953,"text":"有關於銀行局這裡跟銀行公會的這整體的樣態的協商或者是了解或是訂定法規大概要訂多久的期程?"},{"start":392.883,"end":394.004,"text":"林思明、林偉文"}]}},{"id":"150406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bc1f6223b0ef523f98506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a645e06997de6ec50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:20:07 - 13:29:40","影片長度":"00:09:33","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":573,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:29:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:20:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1419,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時20分）謝謝主席。主席，今天因為橫向都相關，所以本席想邀請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有翁副主委。"],["主席：請翁副主委。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為時間的關係，請一起上台，不好意思。還有黃常次、法務部李副署長、數發部李政次。"],["主席：黃次長、李副署長、李次長請就位。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝大家。現在有一個數字讓我們很傷腦筋，就是打詐越打越詐！阻詐的困難到底在哪裡？所以我請橫向的相關單位都上來。政府組成了這個國家隊，可是我們看到近五年的數字，2019年發生的件數是2萬3,054件，2023年暴增到將近3萬8,000件；財損從2019年的42億、43億，增加到2023年顯性的將近89億。連三年最嚴重的就是投資詐騙，你們也都點頭了！投資詐騙占所有詐騙犯罪的第一名，2023年開始，投資詐騙的案件比2022年增加，財損也一直不斷在增加。請教主委，為什麼越打越詐，原因、理由是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為民眾都有一種理財投資獲利的期待，那當然，這……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果歸咎是人民的貪，我想這也不是答案……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有說貪喔……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你說沒有……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我說民眾都有理財投資的期待嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那這要怎麼辦？在座各位，這個數字一直在增加，我們也成立了國家打詐隊，卻越打越詐！請問各位精兵要怎麼辦？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，我們的管理力道也越來越強化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：管理的力道越來越強大？請說明一下，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有啊！您看我們今天的報告，我們在去年6月修投信投顧法增加第七十條之一，針對相關平臺上有不實的投資廣告，會要求它下架；今年年初開始用實名制的方式去規制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：實名制？這是金管會你的說法。","再請教國家傳播委員會翁副主委。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。通傳會會跟電信業者合作，在電信詐欺方面，不論是電信的簡訊、語音，或是大家在講的黑莓卡──境外國際漫遊的部分，我們會跟所有的電信業者合作，也會跟法務部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認為目前的成效呢？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我想在國際……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們都叫家裡的長輩，不熟悉的電話不要接，現在是這樣子自保，這怎麼辦？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對於境外語音詐騙的部分，我們今天的報告已經很寫得清楚，就是有成效，我們也會持續再精進，因為詐騙技術不斷地推陳出新，這一部分就如我剛才講的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：追不上？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們還要跟電信業者努力去精進……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：給你們加油，好不好？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為真的很恐怖！我們現在到各地都告訴很多長輩，對於不熟悉的電話，請千萬不要聽，靠這樣來自保，這不是一個民主政府應該讓人民這麼做的！政府要保護人民，而不是人民自己保護自己！對不對？趕快加油！接下來我也想聽聽法務部報告。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，法務部負責懲詐這個面向；我們現在最主要的就是增加一些法律追緝犯罪的工具，比如提高刑罰增加威嚇性，讓犯罪者不敢犯罪；另外一個面向就是犯罪所得的積極查扣，填補被害人損害……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：犯罪所得？每一次查到人的時候，錢都花光光了，或是移出去了，根本不成比例啊！警察跑得要死，找到了，結果都沒有啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，沒錯！所以打詐國家隊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒錯，那要怎麼辦呢？"],["黃次長謀信：打詐國家隊在前端就要做好相關的查扣或相關的資金扣留，到後端再由檢察官來處理，它是屬於比較末端的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以這要怎麼辦？請問警政署，你們很努力去抓回來，結果什麼都沒有！"],["李副署長西河：委員好，我是副署長李西河。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，這要怎麼辦？"],["李副署長西河：因為我們內政部警政署最瞭解整個犯罪的態樣跟手法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，你們最瞭解態樣，現在要怎麼辦？"],["李副署長西河：所以我們要去宣導跟教育以及後端的偵辦這個部分。為什麼會這麼複雜？因為它已經從實體的犯罪走到數位犯罪；實體犯罪如殺人、強盜、擄人勒贖、銀行搶案，甚至各類的強盜搶案，我們都很快速來偵破；可是隨著數位時代來臨，這種詐欺案件就是標準的數位犯罪，他利用電信網路、金融來傳遞犯罪，來洗錢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你使不上力？"],["李副署長西河：這個代表他可以跨境，可以隱匿，所以造成我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你認為你們使不上力的意思嗎？"],["李副署長西河：不是。行政院已經積極在訂立打詐專法，就各面向來做源頭管理，以上報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：繼續請數位部，你們很重要！現在連AI都被拿來詐騙，這個太恐怖了！"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，第一，我們針對我們自己主管的三個產業，包括第三方支付，包括電商，包括遊戲，在我們的報告裡面都有說明針對這三個產業我們如何處理詐騙這個部分，成績也都在寫在報告裡面。第二，我們會開發一些所謂的信任科技的工具，也就是透過科技來提高大家對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：救得了民眾嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：我舉例……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛警政署已經這麼說，那你們現在還要再開發？"],["李次長懷仁：我舉例，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以就犯罪的技巧技術，你們是在後面追嘛！"],["李次長懷仁：我們是從源頭……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以這麼解釋嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，這是兩個不一樣的概念，譬如剛剛幾位委員都有垂詢的──請我們儘快推動的111簡訊，現在已經有74個單位，已經快2,000萬則。就委員剛剛講的，如果長輩看到簡訊，看到111，就確定是政府的，就不用去認……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓他們有一個辨識，是嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會出來？"],["李次長懷仁：這個已經上線了，現在已經有79個機關，發出五百多萬則，採購2,000萬則。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現場有多少人知道這個訊息？知道的請舉手！有一個舉半手！你要不要再宣傳？"],["李次長懷仁：我們會跟各部會一起宣傳，這個部分的宣傳我們會再加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼要請大家都一起上來？因為政府既然成立了打詐國家隊，但人民所面對的是更嚴肅、更嚴重的一個議題，我們服務處每天都接到被詐騙的電話、被詐騙的事件，真的很難過！政府既然都成立了國家隊，為什麼問題還是這麼嚴重？在座各位都是精兵，你們預計要怎麼做，在執行中有什麼優、缺點，請提供詳實的書面資料給本席，好嗎？我們一起繼續來努力，因為這個讓人民的生活太恐慌。對於冒用名人這樣的詐騙案猖獗，政府要怎麼辦？很多名人的照片都被冒用，怎麼辦？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，數位部目前已經有電子簽章法在立法院審查，待電子簽章法通過以後，強力的KYC跟金管會的投資實名制會一起併同來合作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從根源去管控！"],["李次長懷仁：它就是要從源頭，沒錯！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然每一個案子跳出來，他就來解釋，都已經被詐騙光了，解釋也來不及，對不對？"],["李次長懷仁：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以從根源來管控，才能夠真正救民眾。我記得之前曾經跟金管會主委談過，你們不斷地去拍片、去宣導，都已經來不及了，因為詐騙的技巧比你們還先進，你現在還有什麼招數？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們去年走368個鄉鎮，面對面的溝通也有做過，對於那些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再去想想有什麼方法，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題就是打詐專法，就像剛剛警政署和法務部也說了，我們是不是要嚴格一點？本席有提案，希望討論的時候，大家一定要支持，至少有嚇阻作用嘛！因為詐騙案已經在全球肆虐，太恐怖了！大家務必要加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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對不對趕快加油接下來我也想聽聽法務部"},{"start":247.314,"end":249.655,"text":"警察跑著鑰匙找到了但是都沒有啊"},{"start":275.481,"end":276.141,"text":"那請問警政署,來,防務署"},{"start":295.919,"end":298.521,"text":"您很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,很厲害,"},{"start":314.656,"end":333.789,"text":"為什麼這麼複雜?就因為它已經從實體的犯罪走到世衛犯罪。那實體犯罪比如講殺人強盜、魯文勒死銀行強案甚至各類的強盜強案我們都很快速來偵破可是因為世衛時代來臨這詐欺案件就是標準的世衛犯罪它利用電信、網路、金融來傳遞犯罪來洗錢"},{"start":335.089,"end":356.247,"text":"所以你死不上利的意思嗎?所以你認為你們死不上利的意思嗎?所以我們現在行政院已經積極的要成立打詐專法就各面向來說沿途管理以上報告沿途管理 來數位部你很重要現在連AI這個太恐怖了"},{"start":357.575,"end":380.37,"text":"對,跟委員報告,我們大概,第一個是我們針對我們自己主管的三個產業,包括第三方支付,包括電商,包括遊戲。這三個產業我們在報告裡面都有說明我們的這個處理詐騙的部分,那成績大概都在寫在報告裡面。那第二部分我們會開發一些所謂的信任科技的工具,也就是說透過科技來提高大家對這個信任的...就有得了民眾嗎?"},{"start":382.352,"end":407.732,"text":"剛剛警政署已經這麼說那你們現在還要再開發可以等於是犯罪的技巧技術你們是在後面追嗎?可以這麼解釋嗎?這個是兩個不一樣的概念跟委員報告比如說剛剛幾位委員都有垂詢請我們盡快推動的111簡訊我們現在就已經有74個單位已經快2000萬則這個只要是政府就剛剛委員講的如果長輩看到簡訊看到111就確定是政府的"},{"start":408.851,"end":410.734,"text":"現場有多少人知道有這個知道的請舉手有一個舉半手"},{"start":428.479,"end":446.567,"text":"您要不要宣傳?我們會跟各部一起宣傳,這個我們宣傳我們會加強。為什麼請大家都一起上來?因為既然政府成立了國家隊,打詐國家隊,但是人民所得到的是更嚴肅的一個議題,而且更嚴重。我們輔助每天都接到這個被詐騙的電話,被詐騙的事件。"},{"start":451.628,"end":479.153,"text":"我們看到我們的政府竟然成立了國家隊為什麼還會這麼嚴重剛剛在座各位都是軍兵請你們將你們預計要怎麼做在執行中有什麼優缺點請你詳實的書面資料給本席好不好我們一起繼續來努力因為我覺得這個讓人民太恐慌了這個生活所以我們冒名名人這個詐騙猖獗政府"},{"start":480.1,"end":486.863,"text":"怎麼辦?所有的名人全部這個照片都被用怎麼辦?從根源去管控嘛對他就是從源頭沒錯不然每一個跳出來他就來解釋"},{"start":504.83,"end":532.077,"text":"已經詐騙光了啊,怎麼解釋?解釋也來不及了啊,對不對?從根源來管控才能夠真正的救民眾所以我之前我記得曾經跟這個這個金管會主委談過你們不斷的去宣導然後去去去這個不是只有拍片啊去宣導已經來不及了因為詐騙的技巧比你們還先進你現在還有什麼保守?"},{"start":533.069,"end":556.855,"text":"其實我們去年走368個鄉鎮面對面的溝通也有做過。再去想想什麼方法好不好。所以最後一個議題就是打詐專法。就像剛剛警政署法務部也說了,那是不是要嚴格,我相信本席也提案,我們希望到時候討論的時候一定要支持好不好。至少有惡主作用嘛。"},{"start":557.671,"end":558.512,"text":"接下來請林柱英林委員資訊"}]}},{"id":"150405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1041c739c6c91e5ce5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a62c430e39f0c2bc0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:13:46 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13:23:11","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":565,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:23:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:13:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1342,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時13分）謝謝主席。主席請一下許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，對於發生職災的勞工而言，最重要的其實還是如何輔助他能重返職場，這樣他才能有穩定的經濟收入。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：根據我們職災保險及保護法的規定，事業單位假如僱用職災勞工可以申請補助。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：但是據職安署提供去（2023）年的資料，我們補助的件數只有16件，而勞保局這邊的資料，申請職災給付的大概有9萬件，其實兩者間的落差還蠻大的，這是因為補助的門檻過高或是誘因太低？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員說明一下，發生職災的勞工除有法定事由，否則雇主是不能因為他發生職災就把他解雇，所以有很多職災的勞工是在身體恢復到一定的狀況……"],["楊委員曜：他沒有重返職場的問題？"],["許部長銘春：他就再回到原來的工作崗位。另一種可能是因為失能，短時間或一段時間無法繼續工作，所以就只能離開。如果日後他的身體狀況改善，可以重返職場，新的雇主也願意僱用他，我們會給予這個雇主獎勵，所以這兩個數據可能會有不一樣。"],["楊委員曜：對，我知道，但是這個落差還蠻大的，9萬件與16件，因為我這邊沒有職安署的相關資料，到底有哪一些……剛剛部長講的沒有錯，發生職災不見得就會馬上離開職場，也就沒有重返的問題。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：這個我是認同的，只是到底有多少是申請卻沒通過的？因為職災的總案件數是9萬，申請補助的只有16件，這個落差真的蠻大的。"],["許部長銘春：詳細的資料，在這9萬件裡面……"],["楊委員曜：有多少人離開職場後，有事業單位願意再僱用，提出申請卻沒有通過，把這部分的資料整理好再提供給我。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：我們從監察院的調查報告來看，勞動部提供職災勞工職務再設計服務的量偏低，根據職安署的數據，2023年補助雇主申請職災勞工職務再設計的有13人，勞發署也是13人，就是具有勞工身分的。監察院認為你們的職務再設計服務量能偏低，原因是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們對職災勞工有兩個補助，一個是器具的補助……"],["楊委員曜：對，我知道、我知道。"],["許部長銘春：器具的補助很多，現在就是……"],["楊委員曜：我現在問的是職務再設計。"],["許部長銘春：職務再設計的部分的確是件數很少，這個部分……"],["楊委員曜：這個可能也牽涉到事業單位的意願。"],["許部長銘春：有些事業單位也未必申請補助啊！有時候可能是職務調整，譬如我上次去訪視一家公司，它有一位原本可能是線上作業員的職災勞工，在發生了職災之後，它並沒有將勞工資遣、也沒有終止僱用，而是讓他去做類似園藝之類比較輕鬆的工作，所以失能的職災勞工也能透過這種職務調整重返職場繼續工作。"],["楊委員曜：我知道職務調整，但我現在是針對職務再設計服務量能偏低的部分，職安署有辦法……"],["許部長銘春：我們再檢討一下，是不是宣傳……"],["楊委員曜：好。"],["許部長銘春：因為這是新的災保法中的新措施，是不是很多人不曉得，當然也就不知道可以申請，第一個，我們檢討原因；第二個，也加強宣傳，讓有需要的人，無論是透過職安署或是從發展署這邊的失能輔具申請，真的都能獲得照顧。"],["楊委員曜：部長，假如事業單位的雇主能夠調整職務，那就沒有職務再設計的問題，當然對於勞工的保障是最好，假如沒有其他適當的職缺可以做調整，理論上這個申請的服務量光看數據就13個，確實是有一點低，至於原因到底在哪裡，怎麼改進、怎麼研議改善，請部裡面跟署裡面再做一下研究，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：還有就是勞動部要怎麼提升事業單位聘僱職災勞工的意願，因為在職災保險及保護法第六十七條到第六十九條有關職災勞工重返職場的補貼，包含剛剛部長講過的補助設施的補助、職能復健的津貼、事業單位的僱用補助等等。可是就申請的狀況來看，其實聘僱單位聘僱職災勞工的意願還是不高，假如聘僱的意願不高，職災後復健完的勞工要再投入職場就有困難，能否請部長在這邊發表一下，你覺得要如何提升職災勞工的聘僱？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，職災勞工失能的部分，我們在去年10月就已經列為我們就服法第二十四條的特定對象，我們針對這些職災勞工，譬如對雇主增加誘因，有僱用獎助讓他願意聘用，並且也加強做宣導，包括媒合和勞工有必要的職業訓練，我們都會提供相關免費的協助，讓他能夠順利地重返職場，這個我們都會再加強。"],["楊委員曜：對，甚至於包括跨部會的減稅或者是相關的配套，其實我覺得，災後職工重返職場對於一個家庭的安定是很重要的，請部長這邊除了部裡面可以做的以外，跨部會怎麼協調整合，也幫災後的職工做一定的努力，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員。","本次會議詢答全部結束。委員徐巧芯、葉元之所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。","現在作以下決定跟決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.83909375,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.23034375,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.49159375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.84159375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.02721875,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.465968750000002,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.516593750000002,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.53346875,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.72971875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.16409375,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.60159375,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.79409375,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.06659375000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.46721875,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.79971875000001,"end":77.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.77409375,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.51221875,"end":79.98471875}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主席請一下許部長請許部長務長好"},{"start":28.462,"end":56.245,"text":"部長我們對於職災的勞工來講最重要的其實還是怎麼輔助他能夠重新重返職場那這樣子的話他才能夠有穩定的經濟收入根據我們職災保險跟保護法的規定事業單位繳僱用職災勞工可以申請申請補助的"},{"start":57.85,"end":83.273,"text":"可是執安署提供的2023的資料呢就去年的資料我們補助的件數只有16件那勞保局這邊的資料是這樣子申請職災給付的有大概9萬件那其實兩個的落差還蠻大的"},{"start":85.35,"end":93.137,"text":"是因為補助的門檻過高還是誘因太低?跟委員說明一下因為發生職在勞工除非有法定事由否則"},{"start":94.675,"end":115.977,"text":"顧主是不能因為他發生職災就把他解雇所以很多職災的勞工他是在身體恢復到他沒有重返職場的問題他就再回到原來工作崗位那有一種是可能因為他失能可能他沒有辦法短時間或一段時間沒辦法繼續工作他可能就離開那離開這個部分當然如果他日後"},{"start":116.537,"end":141.248,"text":"整個這個他生育狀況改善之後可以重返職場那僱主願意僱用他新的僱主我們會對這個僱主有獎勵所以這兩個數據可能就是會有不一樣對我知道我知道我說我說落差還蠻大的就是9萬跟16件那我這邊因為沒有沒有職安署的相關的的"},{"start":142.388,"end":152.704,"text":"資料所以說到底有哪一些部長剛剛講的沒有錯就是有職災不見得就是會馬上離開職場也就沒有重返的問題這個我是認同的只是說"},{"start":157.014,"end":168.06,"text":"我們到底有多少是有多少是申請可是沒有過的或者是 因為我覺得16件就是說 職災的總案件數是9萬"},{"start":173.263,"end":179.907,"text":"申請補助的只有16件這個落差滿大有多少是離開職場有事業單位願意來申請沒有過的這個我們再整理把資料整理給我一下一樣是我們從監察院的調查報告"},{"start":203.516,"end":218.888,"text":"來看就是勞動部提供職災勞工的職務再設計服務的量偏低那這個我這邊有的數據是這樣子這個是職安署給的數據是2023年補助僱主申請職災勞工職務再設計的是13人"},{"start":233.479,"end":258.118,"text":"那勞發署勞發署的的就是勞發署也是13人就是具有勞工身份的齁這個這個監察院給你們的的植物塞車機的服務量能偏低原因是什麼"},{"start":260.168,"end":282.381,"text":"那個報告委員其實我們對職災勞工有兩個補助一個是器具的補助對我知道器具補助那個很多他大概就是然後現在就是那個從這個我現在問的是植物再設計植物再設計的這個部分的確是件數很少這個部分"},{"start":284.196,"end":307.991,"text":"這個可能也牽扯到事業單位的主管意願比如說事業單位他也未必申請補助他有時候就是說他職務調整比如說像我上次去訪視一個公司那他有一位職在勞工他本來是可能是線上的作業員可是他發生職在他也沒有給他資錢也沒有給他那個中職顧問他就請他去做原意"},{"start":308.831,"end":332.229,"text":"負責其他的工作所以他這種職務調整其實也是對職災或者這些私人勞工他重返職場以後透過職務調整讓他能夠繼續工作我知道我的意思是說職務調整這個我知道我現在是針對說職務的再設計服務量能偏低的部分"},{"start":334.812,"end":357.871,"text":"對,我們再檢討一下,看是不是宣傳部,因為這個是我們新的災保法裡面新的措施是不是很多人不曉得,不知道來申請所以我想第一個我們檢討原因,那第二個就是也加強宣傳就是說讓有需要的人,那不管他是像透過展署這邊或者是從我們發展署這邊的私人的那個輔具的"},{"start":359.533,"end":383.427,"text":"這個申請都能夠讓他們真的可以照顧一直可以照顧到他們?部長應該是這樣子就是說假如說事業單位的就是僱主能夠調整職務那就沒有職務在設計的問題那當然是對於勞工的保障是最好那假如說沒有其他適當的職缺可以做調整那理論上應該是就是"},{"start":389.371,"end":413.292,"text":"這個申請的服務量能確實光看數據就13個確實是有一點低至於原因到底在哪裡跟怎麼改進怎麼研議改善這個警部裡面跟署裡面這邊再做一下研究好不好"},{"start":417.495,"end":434.387,"text":"還有就是勞動部要怎麼提升事業單位來聘僱職災勞工的意願因為我們在職災保險跟保護法裡面67到69條大概有勞動部有關職災勞工重返職場的補貼大概就包含剛剛部長講過的"},{"start":446.946,"end":458.34,"text":"補助設施的補助職能復建的津貼事業單位的雇用補助等等而就申請的狀況來看其實聘務單位"},{"start":460.731,"end":487.94,"text":"就是聘僱職災勞工的意願還是不高那這個那假如說聘僱的意願不高呢災後復建完的勞工要再投入職場就會有困難那這個是不是也可以請部長在這邊發表一下你覺得怎麼如何提升"},{"start":490.281,"end":504.77,"text":"致災勞工的聘僱是跟委員報告這致災勞工這個就是失能的這部分我們在去年10月已經把列為我們救福法就是24條的特定對象所以我們針對這些致災勞工我們會"},{"start":508.212,"end":527.542,"text":"例如指揮會對僱主增加誘因、僱用講座讓他願意來聘用、加強做宣導包括媒合、包括勞工有必要的職業訓練我們都會提供相關的免費協助讓他能夠順利重返職場,這個我們都會再加強"},{"start":531.924,"end":547.896,"text":"甚至於包括跨部會的減稅或者是相關的配套其實我覺得因為災後職工重返職場對於一個家庭的安定"},{"start":549.617,"end":563.142,"text":"是很重要的請部長這邊也除了部裡面可以做的以外跨部會怎麼協調整合也幫災後的職工做一定的努力好不好好 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13:19:29","影片長度":"00:07:54","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":474,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:19:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:11:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1337,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（13時11分）謝謝主席。我想請金管會、警政署還有數發部。"],["主席：請金管會黃主任委員、數發部李次長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員午安。"],["徐委員巧芯：午安。請問數發部，剛剛您說數發部是負責管電商嘛？"],["李次長懷仁：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：對吧。那我們來看一下最常見的幾種詐騙類型，第一個是貨到付款。你看有的人是預購口罩，買了之後收到相關訊息，說已經到貨了，到貨之後付款取貨後，拿到的東西跟訂購內容是不一樣的。甚至很誇張的，像網拍詐騙的部分，沒有拿到貨或拿到錯誤的貨，連全臺北市最精明的臺北市議員社民黨的苗博雅買手機都被詐騙！","我看到你們說要提高強化資安防護能力，可是你的報告裡面累計只有協助88家公會的會員演練；然後你說要導入隱碼技術，目前只有5家業者要加入；積極辦理個資外洩，只有結案52家；行政相關作業只有針對24家業者辦理28次行政檢查。請問你覺得夠嗎？現在窒礙難行的原因是什麼？為什麼家數這麼少？","我們知道網路上的店家千千萬萬種，可是數發部有配合的、有協助處理的，只有非常少數。尤其既然是詐騙，他幹嘛跟你合作？請問這個問題就你們現在所列表的處理方式是能夠解決的嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，如果你有看報告，後面有一個部分是高危險賣場，其實那個數字就已經往下降了。這就是因為我們推動……"],["徐委員巧芯：數字往下降，降了多少的百分比？"],["李次長懷仁：應該是說我們已經從165的高風險賣場名單移開了，就是這些純電商的賣場，過去他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，我問你們下降了多少百分比？"],["李次長懷仁：這個數字可能要請警政署提供，因為我們不是報案機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：你叫我看報告，你報告裡面又寫得不清楚，叫你回答，你又回答不清楚！是不是回去再檢討一下？"],["李次長懷仁：這個我們下次會寫。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席，這應該是一個很正常的、很簡單的問題，他們竟然回答不出來？來，繼續說。"],["李次長懷仁：您剛剛講的部分，我們是從源頭管理，也就是從電商的部分。過去可能比較被詬病的是你在買東西的時候，很快就會收到詐騙訊息，表示你的個資從電商端出去了。我們現在從電商端開始。剛剛講的5家，其實都是國內的主要電商，市占率大概加起來已經超過七、八成，所以我們是先從大的開始。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們會不會針對第三方支付加強抽查？"],["李次長懷仁：有！這點也跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們從過去抽查的比率，一年來第三方支付平台交易規模20億元以下，歸數位部管。有1.4萬家業者，過去我們每年抽查幾家？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，這個1.4萬家是有登記的，因為過去第三方支付不是特許行業……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啦，我問你每年抽幾家嘛？"],["李次長懷仁：現在我們是用登錄制。"],["徐委員巧芯：去年抽幾家？"],["李次長懷仁：登錄制的概念，是每一家都要檢查，等於是百分之百。"],["徐委員巧芯：去年抽幾家？"],["李次長懷仁：到目前為止有81家登錄，我們81家都檢查。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以81家就是百分之百。"],["李次長懷仁：因為要登錄才能營業，如果不登錄，他就沒有虛擬帳號，幾乎就沒有辦法營業了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你們在抽查的部分，不是針對每一家業者抽查？"],["李次長懷仁：是他反過來要跟我們申報。"],["徐委員巧芯：他反過來跟你申報，他沒申報的部分，你們就……"],["李次長懷仁：他就拿不到銀行給他的虛擬帳號，沒辦法營業。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，針對第三方支付的抽查可能都還要再加強。"],["李次長懷仁：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來要問投資詐騙的部分。請問法務部，im.B詐騙的部分，請問目前調查進度到哪裡了？","不好意思，主席，我剛剛沒有叫到法務部。"],["主席：請法務部黃次長說明。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，im.B的案子，去年8月臺北地檢署起訴之後，目前在臺北地院審理當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。這是大家都很重視的案子，請你們要盡快把事實釐清出來，向社會交代。","再來我要問有關電子簽證，這我也不知道你們誰管的，請自己認領一下，因為現在詐騙太多元了。"],["李次長懷仁：電子簽證是數位部。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們知道現在要去美國，要辦電子簽證，如果我搜尋……"],["李次長懷仁：委員，抱歉，電子簽章跟電子簽證不一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我是在講簽證簽證，所以你不要應那麼快，你根本就不知道我問什麼，你就說是我管的，那不是莫名其妙嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：抱歉。"],["徐委員巧芯：其實還是數位部的。我在講的是，我們想要辦電子簽證的時候，假設我今天打ESTA，進去之後第一個跳出來的，會是別人打贊助廣告的ESTA for the United States，這些網站會假裝自己是美國官方，然後每一個簽證收你97塊美金，如果你到了正確的平台，就是21塊美金而已。它還是會幫你辦，但是中間的價差它就賺走了！"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這個部分我們要如何處理？要跟Google聯繫嗎？因為非常嚴重喔！幾乎你打電子簽證、美簽、ESTA所有的關鍵字，跳進去的前幾個都不是官方網站，請問這個部分數位部要怎麼處理？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，這個部分我們很早就注意到，我們也有跟AIT聯繫，請AIT如果可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要問你解決方案，我時間不夠。"],["李次長懷仁：AIT在他們的官網上也有說明，他們不認為這個是違法。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不認為是違法，但問題是這實際上對我國的國民來說，21塊美金可以做的東西，一大堆人被騙到要用97塊，你們是覺得無所謂，就放任就好，只要說明就好了？"],["李次長懷仁：我們沒有覺得無所謂，但是AIT要能夠……"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問你具體的解決方式是什麼嘛？"],["李次長懷仁：AIT要……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是AIT的問題，我問你數位發展部的問題！它今天是因為在Google上面打了贊助廣告，所以排名才這麼前面，這個部分有要做任何處理嗎？還是放任他們在Google上面一直推播？"],["李次長懷仁：我們也會請Google跟AIT強化這件事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問具體你們希望什麼時候可以解決這個狀況跟問題？"],["李次長懷仁：我沒有辦法要求AIT。"],["徐委員巧芯：我說的是Google，你又跟我扯AIT要作什麼呢？"],["李次長懷仁：因為這個還是有AIT的問題啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天他們是登了Google的廣告，所以它的關鍵字排行在很前面，所以我們有沒有可能跟Google聯繫要下架？"],["李次長懷仁：這個沒有問題。我們可以告訴Google，聯繫這件事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：你跟我扯AIT幹嘛？"],["李次長懷仁：因為它還是假冒AIT啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，它假冒AIT，但是AIT不覺得它是假冒，所以我們就要自己來處理Google的廣告。","今天一個民眾在Google打ESTA進去搜尋，前面幾個全部都是97塊美金的，這當然是數發部處理，叫AIT處理幹嘛？這當然是你們的責任跟工作啊！還是你覺得不是、跟你無關？請問跟誰有關？跟所有人都沒有關係，政府都不用管，就讓一大堆人被收97塊美金，是這個意思嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：沒有，委員，我沒有這樣說，我只是說法律上……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問你們會跟Google談……"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼時候會談好、什麼時候會有進度、什麼時候會要求不能給這些贊助廣告？"],["李次長懷仁：我們本週就可以跟它談，但是我沒有辦法告訴你什麼時候會有結果。"],["徐委員巧芯：本週？所以今天如果我沒有提出這個質詢的話，你們有這個計畫嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：我們本週就有約好要跟他們談事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：是談事情，所以我今天如果沒有質詢，這個議題就不會加進來啊！不要講一些左右而言他的，拜託！這個部分很重要，很多人要去美國都受騙，結果白白多花了好幾十塊美金。麻煩數發部要去跟Google談，要把它處理好，謝謝。"],["李次長懷仁：我們會跟Google說，謝謝委員。"],["主席：Google是誰管的？"],["李次長懷仁：看哪一個業務……"],["主席：就你們管的。誰可以請Google不要做？"],["李次長懷仁：不要做？"],["主席：對，停業。誰管的嘛？就是你們，你們管好就好了啊！","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","林思銘","王美惠","陳冠廷","黃健豪","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員\n會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成\n效進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.01346875,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.076593750000001,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.90096875,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.67721875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.42471875000001,"end":102.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.95159375,"end":104.89221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.07346875,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.23659375000001,"end":117.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.50159375000001,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.72471875000001,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.33534375000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.77784375000002,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.21221875,"end":143.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.20721875,"end":142.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.40534375000001,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.68784375,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.70471875,"end":144.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.72471875000002,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.69846875000002,"end":168.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.74721875,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.86534375000002,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.16034375,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.35346875000002,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.10659375,"end":196.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.35034375,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.88159375,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.29034375,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.65284375000002,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.83409375000002,"end":210.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.49596875,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.09471875000003,"end":218.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.32596875000002,"end":222.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.96659375000002,"end":224.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.70471875,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.28659375,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.02471875,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.01846875,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.57909375000003,"end":246.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.86909375000002,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.92721875,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.73534375,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.00409375000004,"end":282.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.78846875,"end":335.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.55971875,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.35409375,"end":340.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.06221875,"end":342.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.76659375,"end":346.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.66034375000004,"end":364.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.07596875,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.42971875,"end":377.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.27346875,"end":365.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.74034375,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.23784375,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.12346875000003,"end":400.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.10159375,"end":385.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.61159375,"end":390.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.34971875,"end":390.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.28971875,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.28034375000004,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.23534375,"end":427.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.06534375,"end":428.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.92596875000004,"end":431.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.97221875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我是在講所以你不要硬那麼快嘛你根本就不知道我問什麼人就說是我管的這莫名其妙嗎我在講的是說我們今天想要辦這個電子簽證的時候如果我今天其實還是數位部的啦我今天假設我打ESTA進去之後第一個跳出來的會是別人打贊助廣告的這個ESTA for United States這些網站它會假裝它自己是美國官方然後呢它每一個"},{"start":311.069,"end":330.241,"text":"簽證他給你收97塊美金但如果你到了正確的平台就是21塊美金而已中間他還是會幫你辦但是呢中間的價差他就賺走了請問這個部分我們要如何處理要跟Google來聯繫嗎因為非常嚴重喔幾乎你打電子簽證、美簽、ESTA所有的關鍵字跳進去的前幾個"},{"start":332.082,"end":345.195,"text":"都不是官方網站請問這個部分數位部要怎麼處理?跟委員報告這個部分我們很早就注意到我們也有跟AIT聯繫請來第一題如果可以對我要問你解決方案我們時間不夠AIT在他們的官網上也有說明他們不認為這個是違法"},{"start":347.204,"end":372.1,"text":"說明說不是你不認為是違法但是問題是說你這東西實際上對我國的國民來說他21塊美金可以做的東西一大堆人被騙到變97塊你們是覺得無所謂就放任就好只要說明就好了那請問你具體的解決方式是什麼嗎不是AIT的問題我問你數位發展部的問題他今天是因為在google上面打了贊助廣告所以他的排名才這麼前面"},{"start":372.68,"end":402.163,"text":"那這個部分我們有要做任何處理嗎?還是要放任他們讓Google上面一直推波?我們會請Google跟IT強化這件事情那請問具體你們希望什麼時候可以解決這個狀況跟問題嗎?我沒有辦法要求AIT沒有辦法做我說的是Google你要跟我扯AIT要做什麼呢?今天他們是登了Google的廣告嘛所以他的關鍵字排行在很前面嘛所以我們有沒有可能跟Google聯繫說這個背包要下架嗎?我們可以告訴Google聯繫這個事情因為還是假冒AIT啊"},{"start":402.583,"end":402.783,"text":"主席"},{"start":420.387,"end":435.398,"text":"還是你覺得不是跟你無關那請問跟誰有關跟所有人都沒有關係政府都不用管我們就大家一大堆人收97塊美金是這個意思嗎沒有我沒有這樣說我只是說那請問你剛剛講說你們會跟Google談什麼時候會談好什麼時候會有進度什麼時候會把這些贊助廣告要求他們不能給"},{"start":438.26,"end":438.28,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":473.473,"end":473.933,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150403","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150403","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1dc0de7b5929e804e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6a08c380e87b7bb0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:01:46 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13:13:39","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":713,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:13:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T13:01:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時1分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，辛苦了！部長有掌握到20日高雄仁武遊覽車事件的狀況嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["劉委員建國：有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["劉委員建國：它到底是什麼狀況？給你30秒大致說明一下，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：據報載說好像有超時工作的問題。"],["劉委員建國：據報載說？"],["許部長銘春：對，現在……"],["劉委員建國：署長呢？還沒有去調查？"],["許部長銘春：原本高雄市政府有兩次要去勞檢，因為那時候負責人正在配合檢警的偵辦中，所以還未釐清實際狀況。不過我們也調閱了交通部公路局的GPS，當日真正的行車時間並沒有超過10小時，但是具體工作時間不是看行車紀錄器，有時候待命時間也算是工作時間，包括準備及事後加油等等的都要算，所以這個部分還需要進一步釐清。"],["劉委員建國：你掌握到報載以及署裡調閱的行車紀錄器，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊的訊息，你也掌握一下，好不好？根據我所得知的訊息，遊覽車是3月20日早上5點出發，事故發生在3月20日晚上8點，阿里山一日遊嘛！這樣就有幾個鐘頭了？當然，誠如你所言，到底具體實際開車的時間是多久，你們還需要double check，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是，依照這樣的算法，值勤時間其實已經達到了15個小時，對不對？根據勞基法第三十九條的規定，整天的工時是8小時，加班不得超過4小時，等同整天的工時不得超過12小時。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：交通部在2020年、2022年也修正了汽車運輸業管理規則部分條文，明定遊覽車駕駛從報到地點到行程結束的工時不能逾11小時，違規最高就是罰9萬，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：這名司機從出車到出事已經15個小時。我們再來算他到底是什麼時候到班，如果他是5點要到班，對不起，應該是說他5點要出發，這樣他是不是要提早半個鐘頭或一個鐘頭到班，對不對？這是簡單算嘛！對不對？從他家要到到班的時間要不要半個鐘頭至一個鐘頭的梳洗或吃早餐，所以可能又要再多半個鐘頭到一個鐘頭，簡單講，最少在5點到班前還要多一個到一個半鐘頭，這樣才算是合理嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們再假設另外一個情境，如果20日當天遊覽車可以平安到家，當時8點確實還在路上，我覺得就進度來看，把客人整個全部都送完，也應該要到9點了，應該是這樣嘛！最理想是9點半回到他到班的公司，並於10點前離開，11點可能回到家裡洗澡、上床睡覺。署這邊有沒有調查他隔天預訂的班別是幾點要開始執勤？有調查嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分的權限在高雄市勞檢處，目前他們正在調查、釐清，不過，剛剛……"],["劉委員建國：發生這麼大的事情，這個當然要釐清，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是調查他隔天的班表應該不是很困難的事情。"],["許部長銘春：都要、都要。主要是由高雄市勞檢處負責調查，我們的南區職安中心也有給予協助，所以我們會將整件事情做個釐清。針對委員剛剛的說明，這個一定是超時，不過我們還是必須了解中間……"],["劉委員建國：高雄市長就覺得這個駕駛應該對路況很熟悉啊！不應該犯下這樣的錯誤啊！對不對？這是地方政府首長講的話，我們也沒有什麼意見，但是署這邊應該要快速掌握是什麼情況。"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["劉委員建國：這名司機在過去6年來有3次違規事件，分別是倒車未注意人車、未依交通標誌指示行駛、違規臨時停車，這3件違規中沒有1件發現他超時工作的狀況，這樣就很奇怪了！再來，我就覺得為什麼會這麼巧，一觸犯就出事，疲勞的累積一定會讓事故發生的機率大大提高嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看這個路，你知道那個司機是開慢車道或快車道？"],["許部長銘春：你是說那天嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["許部長銘春：應該是慢車道。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！他開慢車道，是不是？這條叫做水管路嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：遊覽車怎麼會開慢車道，況且慢車道還有機車，所以精神是不是出問題了？不然原本應該開快車道，怎麼會開慢車道與機車擠在一起，這樣就有問題嘛！你知道嗎？家屬也表示罹難者在生前還打電話向家屬抱怨司機亂繞路，所以我真的覺得這個司機當時的精神狀況應該是非常不佳啦！是不是太累了，還是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：可能是太累了。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊也調出了一份資料，勞動部在110年到112年針對全國遊覽車業實施勞動條件檢查總計1,626家次，違反的有190件次，累計罰款將近一千出萬，這次出事的旅行社，據了解只有110年檢查2次、罰款2萬，這個應該沒有錯誤吧！在去年3月3日你們的新聞稿有特別提到，交通運輸業違反勞基法比例偏高，勞動部將聯合交通部加強督導業者改善，1年後怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況？既然勞動部已經聯合交通部加強監督的作為，為什麼這家只有在110年檢查2次而已？難道部長要告訴全國，20日發生的這件事是個案？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，專案勞檢的名單是由交通部整個評估之後再交給我們……"],["劉委員建國：是啊！我知道啊！"],["許部長銘春：為什麼沒有列這一家，我們會再去了解，不過，未來針對這些有違規狀況的，我們自己的名單也撈一下，不是只看交通部給的名單。"],["劉委員建國：事故發生到現在已經是第5天了，對不對？我認為部或署還是要去掌握這個情況吧！"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：如果交通部那邊有問題，我們拜託召委再排一個專案嘛！究竟是交通部出問題或是你們勞動部出問題，對於你們在報告中寫的這句話，我是真的很難認可，「為持續減少職業災害發生，保障作業者之安全與健康，本部將持續運用有限人力」，底下我就不再贅述了，好不好？什麼叫有限人力？「以風險分級方式鎖定目標實施勤查嚴罰，俾有效督促事業單位落實職場防災管理」，因為你們沒辦法掌握，到現在沒辦法掌握，對委員會、對我做一個陳述，到底這個司機是不是已經過勞了、是不是已經超時到非常離譜了，因為你們沒辦法掌握，所以我也沒辦法用這個角度去問你，但是這個報告是你們寫的，什麼叫做「運用有限人力」？你講這樣，衛環委員會的委員都失職了！我在司法及法制委員會的時候，檢察官哀號人力不足，打詐這麼龐大的業務量，真的是不堪負荷，我們也三番兩次督促當時的蔡部長，最後也一直要求，你知道現在已經增加了檢察官助理100名，明年要再報到150名，還有其他補充人力將近五百多名。你們到底是怎樣的有限人力，你也說給我們聽聽看，衛環委員會來支持啊！究竟是我們失職或是沒有給你們支持，不然你們到現在還說「有限人力」是什麼意思？我聽不懂啊！"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我想這個用語真的不是很恰當。"],["劉委員建國：如果真的是有限人力、人力不足，你就盤點出來，讓我們知道，我們來支持，對不對？不要像這件事情已經發生5天了，還沒有掌握狀況，雖然是地方第一線該先去了解清楚，但我覺得應該掌握到底有沒有超時、到底這家遊覽車公司是不是經常有這種狀況發生。依照目前這種狀況來講，只有110年檢查了2次、罰了2萬元，所以是交通部的問題，不是你們的問題，這樣也很奇怪啊！","部長，也不只是遊覽車這件事情，剛剛很多委員都向你垂詢過，市區公車也是一樣的狀況。2022年北市公車司機休息不夠，7個月前罰了372萬；2023年的新聞，中市的公車遭裁罰，有八成工時過長，臺北與臺中的比較辛苦！簡單講，市區公車遊覽車司機過勞好像已經不是什麼新聞，也不是什麼新聞，所以各縣市都在鬧司機荒，才會有桃園市長說要開放外籍司機的說法，我對這種想法是尊重啦！不過，如果像這樣經常工時過長、休息不夠，加上缺人，導致司機過勞，也因為缺人而導致更缺人，導致司機更過勞，這種惡性循環一直不斷，即使開放了外籍司機，也是讓外籍司機進來一樣過勞、一樣的惡性循環，在疲勞的駕駛中提高他的危險機率，最後鬧成國際笑話，讓國際知道我們的司機就是這樣的過勞、這樣的超時，甚至一直無法改善這樣的環境。我是拿這兩個數據給部長參考，無論是遊覽車司機或市區公車的司機，針對他們的超時或缺人狀況，到底要如何改善，以及剛剛我講的遊覽車事件，是不是可以儘快盤點出來？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：在你們盤點出來之後，給委員會一份報告，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.945343750000001,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.775343750000001,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.00284375,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.61846875,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.63909375,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.48284375,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.035343750000003,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.13159375,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.46471875,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.10971875,"end":36.987218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.16846875,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.24846875,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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部長辛苦了部長有掌握到20日高雄仁魯遊覽車事件的這個狀況嗎有有嗎有他到底是什麼狀況可不可以大致上30秒跟你說好不好現在就是說當然"},{"start":33.825,"end":47.646,"text":"據報載說好像有超時工作的問題據報載說?對那所長還沒有去到達?我們現在因為吼因為那個高雄市政府有兩次要去勞檢可是因為那時候負責人吼因為在"},{"start":48.507,"end":64.764,"text":"配合檢查檢警的正辦中所以沒有沒有還沒有理清楚但是我們也調那個GPS那個根據他交通部公務局的GPS他那天當日的行車時間真正的行車時間是沒有超過10小時"},{"start":65.825,"end":80.715,"text":"但是因為具體的工作不是看那個行車紀錄器還要看看他這個有時候他待命時間也算工作時間準備啦事後加油這些都要算所以我們這個部分還要需要進一步釐清"},{"start":82.236,"end":96.634,"text":"好那你掌握到這個報宅嘛還有署這邊去調那個行車紀錄器嘛對不對那我這邊你也掌握一下好不好我這邊的訊息是這樣一輛車是3月22日早上5點出啊然後"},{"start":98.081,"end":115.386,"text":"事故發生在3月20號的晚上8點阿里山一日遊所以這樣就幾個鐘頭了那當然陳努力所講的嘛到底他具體的實際開車時間多久這你再double check啦好不好但是你看喔如果依照這樣的算法已經已經執勤的時間達15個小時了嘛對不對好"},{"start":118.507,"end":130.477,"text":"我們勞進法30條規定這整天工時8小時加班不得超過4小時等同這整天的工作工時不能超過12小時交通部在2022年也修正《汽車運輸業管理規則》不用的條文明定遊覽車駕駛從報到遞員到行程結束工時不能逾11小時那違規就是最高罰9萬對不對"},{"start":145.211,"end":153.587,"text":"這名司機出車到出事了到出事就是已經15個小時了那我們再來算嘛他到底是什麼時候到班"},{"start":155.257,"end":174.612,"text":"他如果是五點要出發他是不是要提早半個鐘頭或一個鐘頭要到班?對不對?是簡單算嘛對不對?他從他家要到到班時間要不要半個鐘頭至一個鐘頭的梳洗嗎?我不曉得吶含要不要吃早餐"},{"start":175.553,"end":200.983,"text":"所以他可能又要再多一個半個鐘頭到一個鐘頭簡單講最少5點要到班前還要多一個鐘到一個半鐘頭這才屬於合理嘛那我們再假設另外一個情境嘛20日當天遊覽車如果可以平安到家但是他確實8點還在路上我看進度要把客人整個全部都送完也應該要到9點了啦應該是這樣嘛然後"},{"start":203.618,"end":221.766,"text":"最理想就是要9點半回到他到班的公司那10點前離開嘛11點可能回到家裡嘛洗澡上枕睡覺嘛署這邊有沒有去調查他隔天的預定他的班別是幾點要再開始執勤有去調查嗎"},{"start":222.711,"end":251.892,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的全縣在高雄市勞檢處他們現在現在就是在做一些調查、釐清啦我知道發生這麼大的事情這個當然要釐清嘛對不對但是調查隔天的班表應該也不是什麼困難的事情嘛高雄市勞檢處主要是他們調查那我們南區職安中心也有在協助所以我們把這個事情做一個整個釐清啦當然剛剛就委員這樣的說明這是很有可能就是"},{"start":252.572,"end":275.573,"text":"一定是超時不過這中間就是我們還是必須了解不是不是我想你看這個市長剛才市長就覺得說這個價值應該對陸管很熟悉啊不應該換價值錯誤啊對不對好這地方政府的首長講這些話嘛對不對我們也沒有什麼意見但是屬這邊應該要很快速去掌握到底什麼情況那你再看啦"},{"start":276.293,"end":298.665,"text":"這名司機在過去6年來有三次違規事件其中分別是倒車、未注意人車、未依交通標誌、指示行駛、違規臨時停車這三件違規裡面沒有半件發現他超時工作的狀況就很奇怪了再來我就覺得怎麼會這麼巧這樣一出犯就出事"},{"start":299.745,"end":322.342,"text":"我想這個疲勞的累積一定會讓事故發生的機率大大提高部長你看這個路你說那個司機是開快車道還是開慢車道嗎?慢車道你說那一天嗎?對啊他應該是慢車道啊對啊他開慢車道嘛是不是就有叫水管路嘛對遊覽車怎麼會開慢車道慢車道還有汽車"},{"start":325.765,"end":341.155,"text":"所以那個人是不是出問題了嗎?不然他要去快車道,他怎麼會找到慢車道慢車道他還要跟機車在那裡站這就有問題嘛所以你知道嗎?這根據家屬表示嘛就連罹患者的時候在生前都要打電話"},{"start":342.176,"end":349.899,"text":"跟他們的家屬抱怨司機亂繞路所以我真的是覺得這個司機當時應該精神狀況是非常的不佳啦是不是太累了或是安坐我們這邊我這邊也幫你調出一個資料就是勞動部在110年到112年對全國有一輛車業總計實施勞動條件檢查"},{"start":370.788,"end":375.573,"text":"1626家次威環190件次累計罰款將近1000出萬這次出事的旅行社據瞭解只有110年檢查兩次罰款2萬這應該沒有錯誤"},{"start":388.706,"end":401.216,"text":"那你看在去年3月3日的時候我們的新聞稿有特別提到說加東運輸業違反勞基華比例偏高勞動部將聯合加東部去加強督導業者改善一年以後怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況因為勞動部已經聯合加東部來做加強監督的作為了但是這一家為什麼只有在110年檢查兩次而已"},{"start":418.673,"end":435.162,"text":"難道部長要跟全國講說就20日發生這個事情叫做個案因為吼報告委我們那個要專案勞檢的名單吼就是由那個交通部吼他去整個"},{"start":436.246,"end":460.902,"text":"平估以後交給我們所以為什麼沒有列這一家我們會再做了解不過我想未來一定會針對這些有違規狀況的我們一定自己因為我們的自己的名單也撈一下不是只看交通部交的名單因為事化到現在已經第五天了嘛對不對我想部還是署還是要去掌握這個情況交通部那邊如果有問題我們拜託召委"},{"start":464.424,"end":466.625,"text":"以分嫌分級方式鎖定目標實施檢查研研法"},{"start":491.454,"end":518.128,"text":"必有效度出事業單位落實職場防災管理因為你們沒辦法掌握到現在沒辦法掌握委員會對我來做一個陳述到底這一個司機是不是已經過勞了是不是已經超時到非常離譜了你們沒辦法掌握嘛所以我也沒辦法用這個角度去問你但是這個報告是你們寫的嘛什麼叫做運用有限的人力你講這樣吼為何委員會的委員都失責啊"},{"start":519.369,"end":547.68,"text":"我在市委委員會的時候檢察官在挨人力不足要打造這麼大的業務量真的是不堪負荷我們也三番兩次的督促當時的蔡部長最後一直要求人家現在也增加了檢察官助理100名明年要再報到150名還有其他的補充能力快到500多名我們到底是怎樣的有限能力你也跟我們拚一下不然我會來支持啊"},{"start":549.167,"end":573.746,"text":"不然我們是失職還是還是沒有跟你們支持?不然你們到現在還有有限的人力是什麼意思?我聽不懂啊!你如果真的是有限人力人力不足你就盤點出來嘛!那我們知道嘛!我們來支持嘛!對不對?不要現在發生這個事情五天了還沒有掌握雖然是地方該去第一線該先去了解清楚但是我覺得掌握到底有沒有超時"},{"start":574.927,"end":585.002,"text":"到底這家遊行公司是不是經常有這種狀況發生但是如果從目前來講110年就是炒了兩次反而滿口所以是交通部的問題不是你們的問題這有點奇怪啊"},{"start":591.662,"end":608.915,"text":"我想部長也不只遊覽車這個事情你看剛剛很多委員都有跟你垂詢市區公車也是一樣狀況這個是2022年北市公車司機休息不夠7個夜學滑了372萬2023年新聞中市的公車遭柴滑8層公死過場這台北跟台中的比較吃爛"},{"start":616.525,"end":630.081,"text":"所以要簡單講說市區公車、遊覽車這個過勞好像已經也不是什麼新聞嘛也不是什麼新聞所以各縣市都在鬧這個司機方所以才有這個台灣市長說要對方開放外籍司機的說法"},{"start":632.343,"end":644.208,"text":"我感覺這尊重啦這種想法尊重啦不過如果像這樣經常工時過長然後休息不夠缺人導致失蹊過勞導致更缺人導致失蹊更過勞的惡種惡性循環一直不斷"},{"start":650.45,"end":667.921,"text":"你現在開放外企的司機是叫外企的司機進來一樣跟你一樣就是要過勞然後要這樣的惡性循環然後讓外企司機也負擔起這樣的一個在整個駕駛過程裡面提高他的這個危險的機率"},{"start":670.406,"end":674.308,"text":"這要鬧成國際笑話還是讓國際專注說我們的時機就是這麼樣的過勞然後這麼樣的超時這麼樣的一直沒辦法去改善這樣的一個環境"},{"start":686.674,"end":710.287,"text":"我是拿這兩個數據來給部長做參考啦所以我覺得說不管是遊覽車司機還是市區公車的司機啦不然他超時跟缺人狀況到底要去如何做改善還有幫我剛才講那個遊覽車那個事件是不是可以盡快的盤整出來啦啊你們真的缺人率也盤整出來給委會一個報告啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"150402","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150402","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b373239f197349d22e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6e43e0eced403f9ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:46:38 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13:01:28","影片長度":"00:14:50","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":890,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:01:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:46:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好，我們今天專報的題目有講到職業安全衛生管理跟工安文化，所以我想就這兩個主題來跟你請教。","首先，我們就管理的部分，職業安全衛生管理辦法的第一條之一規定，事業單位應依其事業之規模、性質，設置安全衛生組織及人員，建立職業安全衛生管理系統。並且第二條規定，依危害風險之不同區分為三個等級，有顯著、中度及低度風險的事業。請教署長，你們如何去認定風險的等級？依據是什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，我們有附表，不同的行業別有不同的分類等級，應該是根據過去千人率的狀況來做判斷，列為風險的區分。"],["陳委員瑩：早期就是以千人率來做依據，舉例來說，因為漁業的職災死亡率非常高，是我們全產業的前三名，但是我們對照這個表，它竟然是列為第二類的中度風險，而洗染業卻是第一類的顯著風險，特別是洗的部分包括洗衣服、燙衣服、收衣服、送衣服、自助洗衣都是，列為第一類的顯著風險，你不覺得這跟現況事實不符嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，洗染業過去用了很多化學物質，包括可以清洗、乾洗的物質，我們認為屬於毒性的物質，所以比較關切這個項目。委員提到的漁業，我們會再檢討做調整。"],["陳委員瑩：因為這邊是洗染業，我知道你會講染，我剛剛也跳過染的部分了，因為從剛剛署長講的都是以前依據千人率，以及早期洗染業在染的部分比較毒，我們一直聽到以前以前，接下來我就要問你了，風險等級幾年沒有修訂了？"],["鄒署長子廉：應該是103年之後就沒有再修了。"],["陳委員瑩：我是懷疑是不是從民國64年到現在，可能這張附表一都沒有修正過，你可不可以說明一下？"],["鄒署長子廉：同仁給我的資料是說都有檢討，但是現在的版本確實是104年沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：104年？還是105年？"],["鄒署長子廉：103年6月26日公布的版本。"],["陳委員瑩：我問的是這個附表什麼時候有修正過？"],["鄒署長子廉：沒有，應該是訂了之後就沒有再修過。"],["陳委員瑩：就沒有再修過嘛！最多了不起增加一個第三類的部分而已。接下來我們看一下組織和人員的部分，第一類的事業單位勞工人數100人以上就要設置直屬雇主的一級管理單位，管理人員也要專職；第二類事業單位勞工人數是300人以上才要比照辦理。請教署長，100人和300人的區分有何依據？"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，應該是我們在訂這個法規的時候，用不同的事業規模等級作區隔，我想當初的立法目的在這邊，風險比較高的、人數到達一定程度就要設置專責人員來做安全衛生防護。"],["陳委員瑩：因為剛剛我問完這個問題，你的表情還滿特別的，你等一下回去自己倒帶看一下。"],["鄒署長子廉：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：我很想解讀你那個表情反映的是什麼。除了從勞工人數反映事業單位規模，直接跟設置的財務能力有關以外，我實在看不出來這樣一刀切到底有什麼跟職業安全衛生是有關聯性的，署長的看法如何？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們第一類是高風險的，人數100人，我們就要求它有適度的人力做安全管理；第二類是300人；是用風險和企業規模來區分。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我理解，這有寫得很清楚，但是我就看不出來這個關聯性，你不覺得第一類危險就是危險，100人、200人，它還是危險啊！最令本席不解的就是這個辦法第三條之二的規定，事業單位勞工人數的計算包含了原事業單位及承攬人，還有再承攬人之勞工及其他受工作場所負責人指揮或監督從事勞動之人員，這個我就很有感，例如我們很多的原住民以營造業為主，每個營造業工班進場的時間不一樣，不同的時段有不同的工班，這樣到底實務上可不可行，會不會這個禮拜人數不足，但下個禮拜承攬的人數加總之後又超標了，管理組織和專職人員要怎麼設置？還有他們管理業務的執行要怎麼作成紀錄備查？因為這人數看起來是浮動的。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，你點出重點，企業的經營有承攬、再承攬，真的是浮動的，所以我們目前採行平均的方式來評估它的勞工人數是不是得當，勞工人數超過一定的人數，設置管理人員的資格和條件就會有點不同，就是按照我們判斷結果來看它的執行紀錄就會比較清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你要去抓平均值？我覺得應該還有更好的方法，你要不要再好好想一想？"],["鄒署長子廉：請委員指教。"],["陳委員瑩：不是我要指教，是你們要想的，不是我替你們想，但我就覺得這有點不太合理，因為我也不是署長，而且你比較厲害，這是你的專業。"],["鄒署長子廉：沒有，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：從這些規定來看，似乎事業單位的職業安全衛生管理組織和人員僵固，管理執行流於書面形式，相同規模的事業單位，不管它的實際成效是怎麼樣，都必須符合法規的規定，否則就是違法。可是符合規定卻不見得可以確保不發生職災。我舉明揚公司為例，它的風險可能是隨著它的訂單增加而上升，但我們的管理規定卻沒有考慮到這一點，所以即使你們發動專案檢查，恐怕將來其他事業單位還是會發生職災意外，署長針對這個有什麼想法？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員，有組織、有人員，還是執行最重要，委員提醒的就是這個人員在我們法系裡面有沒有善盡責任，明揚這個案子，它有安全管理員，有跟他的工安課長回報，但是工安課長沒有做立即處置，導致這樣的重大事故，所以明揚這個案子職安署也有做檢討，安全管理人員有沒有發揮效用是最重要的關鍵，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得訂單的部分有時候業務量突然增加很多，它風險也會相對提高，結果我們專案一檢查，同一類型的就一直檢查其他的廠，可能別人的訂單都被它拿走了，別家可能就降低訂單過多的風險，我要提的是這個。還有這個辦法的第十二條之二，第一類勞工人數200人以上跟第二類勞工人數500人以上的雇主，應依國家標準CNS45001同等以上規定，建置適合該事業單位的職業安全衛生管理系統，並據以執行。為什麼到管理系統的部分又是一刀切的切法？跟剛剛前面的100人與300人又變成200人和500人，這樣的依據到底又是什麼？也是跟署長剛剛講的一樣嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：這個CNS45001是新的，在108年開始從ISO45001變成CNS45001，我們希望一定規模以上的企業要把這個管理系統內化，所以我們先訂這樣的法規要求，人數和基準可否檢討，我相信我們會做進一步的……"],["陳委員瑩：因為本席認為第一類就是有顯著的風險，不管它是100人或199人，或者90人，它的顯著風險都是一樣的，不會減少，所以我又覺得這個一刀切的切法跟前面比較起來，我還是覺得很奇怪，我想署長不能只是簡單講說因為依據風險的顯著或不顯著。","最後要請教的是安全文化，請問安全文化的定義和實質內容到底是什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，世界各國都追求安全文化的提升，過去英國、美國都有一個安全氣候評量，我們就叫做check list或問卷，但是我們認為這個問卷不同行業別來做同一問卷是不對的，所以這確實是比較浮的、比較虛空的想法，但是我們會從被動指標和正面指標，例如它的教育訓練好不好、環境夠不夠……"],["陳委員瑩：它就是一個很虛，因為你講很虛，所以我也很難想得很具體，什麼樣的事業單位符合你們的優質安全文化，可不可以舉一些例子，到底好的安全文化需要多久的時間才可以累積？"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，好的公司的安全文化應該不是短期半年、一年就可以達成，這確實要三、五年以上才有辦法建立，指標的部分有正面指標和被動指標，例如它的教育訓練、安全管理、稽核、查核OK不OK，被動指標就是它的發生事故數、事故量有沒有進一步檢討，剛才委員提醒的就是我們管理系統特別強調這一塊PDCA的正面循環，如果正面循環做得好，就有證據資料可以佐證。"],["陳委員瑩：我們都希望它們是主動的安全，而不是被動的安全，安全文化做得好，或者有進步的事業單位，有什麼獎勵？沒有安全文化的事業單位又有什麼處罰？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們工安獎就會看整體的表現，如果好的話，當然是比較好的激勵，我們現在國家最好的是國家職安獎，得到國家職安獎，職災保險費率是可以折減的，這是正面的鼓勵性質，應該是有些激勵效果來讓企業追循。"],["陳委員瑩：所以它們可以折抵一些，那處罰的部分呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：處罰也是一樣，重大職災的話，災防法現在規定發生重大職災死亡的保險費率要增列20%"],["陳委員瑩：好，職安署的責任是非常重大的，職權很重要，所以你們的預算可以說是有增無減，你們的單位真的是要人有人、要錢有錢、權力也不小，與其他單位比起來算是比較這樣子了，但是降災的成績還是不盡人意，這也是為什麼今天安排這個專報。也期許你們要多加思考彈性及務實的管理，才能讓這個事業單位真正負起責任，而且要多鼓勵及宣導工安文化，如何發展讓勞資一起重視合作，希望我們的職災、尤其是重大職災，可以趕快下降，因為我知道你們針對2030年訂定了目標，但是……"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的提醒，其實我們都把衛環所有委員的建議當成未來能夠進步的推力，整體要進步確實有一些困難，也會有一些挑戰，但我也與我們的同仁一起面對這個現況，並且做更好的追求。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我也希望2030年如果你還繼續在這個位子上，這樣你才能看到這個成果，才能負責這個成果，所以你是不是要改成每一年訂，不要訂在2030年？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，其實訂定2030年是符合國家2030階段性的淨零目標，但是我們每兩年或每一年都有要達成的小目標或短期目標，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：因為沒有看到，請你再告訴我。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：請署長會後再向委員做個說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["主席：接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請吳秉叡委員、吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員不在。","接下來請葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.17909375,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.15784375,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.86221875,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.45909375,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.05346875000001,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.35534375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.33346875000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.89034375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.26471875000001,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.47346875,"end":144.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.21096875,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.34971875000002,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.20471875,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.95346875,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.73784375000002,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.23471875,"end":183.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.02721875,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.37659375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.84909375,"end":192.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.08534375000002,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.31284375,"end":194.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":201.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.55221875,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.91409375,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.98534375000003,"end":216.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.71096875,"end":211.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.24659375000002,"end":213.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.82409375,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.43909375,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.04221875000002,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.02159375000002,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.56096875000003,"end":269.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.71034375,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.12721875,"end":276.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.47721875,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.67534375,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.92846875000004,"end":277.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.94534375,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.96221875000003,"end":291.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.99596875000003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45001等以上規定建置適合該事業單位的這個職業安全衛生管理系統並具以執行那為什麼到管理系統的部分就又是一刀切的切法"},{"start":588.76,"end":599.695,"text":"跟剛剛前面的100人跟300人然後又變成200人跟500人這樣子的依據又到底又是什麼?也是跟署長剛剛講的一樣嗎?"},{"start":602.074,"end":627.293,"text":"包委這CS45001是新的在108年開始從ISO45001變成我們的CS45001那我們希望國家的比較一定規模上的企業要把這個管理系統內化所以我們先定這樣法規的要求那至於這個人數跟這個基準可不可以做檢討我相信我們會再做進步的因為本期認為第一類它就是有顯著的風險不管它是100人"},{"start":628.494,"end":655.27,"text":"還是199人或者他90人他的顯著風險都是一樣的他不會減少所以我又覺得這個一刀切的切法跟前面比較起來我還是覺得很奇怪我想署長不能只是簡單講說因為是依據那個風險的這個顯著或不顯著那我最後要提到的就是我想先請教就是"},{"start":656.431,"end":660.884,"text":"安全文化請問安全文化的定義跟實質內容到底是什麼?"},{"start":663.329,"end":688.409,"text":"世界各國都在追求安全化提升過去英國、美國都有一個安全氣候的評量叫做checklist或是問卷但是我們認為這個問卷跟不同行業別來做同樣問卷是不對的所以這個確實是比較浮的、比較虛空的一個看科學的想法但是我們會從被動指標跟正面指標比如教育訓練好不好辦的環境夠不夠我們來做一些"},{"start":689.29,"end":706.052,"text":"對它就是一個很虛你講很虛所以我很難想的很具體所以什麼樣的事業單位符合你們的優質安全文化可不可以舉一些例子到底就是好的這個安全文化需要多久的時間才可以累積"},{"start":707.83,"end":737.25,"text":"委員好的公司的安全化應該是不是就短期半年、一年就達成這確實要3、5年以上才有一定upgrade那指標部分有正面指標跟被動指標比如他的教育訓練、安全管理、集合、查核OK那被動指標就是他發生的事故數、事故量有沒有做進一步的檢討那在整個這個體系裡面就是我們講的剛剛委員提醒就是我們管理系統特別要特別強大這塊PDCA的整個正面循環那如果正面循環做得好他就有證據、資料、Document可以做佐證"},{"start":738.07,"end":749.848,"text":"我們都希望他們是主動的安全而不是被動的安全那安全文化做得好或者是說有進步的事業單位是有什麼獎勵那沒有安全文化的事業單位又有什麼處罰"},{"start":751.701,"end":769.857,"text":"報告委員我們其實公安獎那個獎項就是會看整體的表現如果好的話當然是比較好的機率我們現在國家最好的是國家資安獎國家資安獎得到的話它其實紙災保險費率是可以折減的所以像這個是正面的鼓勵性質應該是有一些可以做一些Driving force來讓企業能夠追尋"},{"start":770.857,"end":782.215,"text":"所以他們是可以折抵一些那講好那處罰的部分處罰也是一樣如果重大職災的話我們災防法現在規定保險費率是發生重大職災死亡是要增列20%"},{"start":785.373,"end":805.125,"text":"我想這個專屬你們責任是非常重大的那職權很重要所以你們的這個預算可以說是有增無減那這個你們的單位其實真的是要人有人要錢有錢權力也不小其實跟其他單位比起來是"},{"start":805.925,"end":835.103,"text":"是算是比較這樣子的那可是降災的成績我想還是不盡人意啦那這也是為什麼今天安排這個專報那也期許說你們要多加的思考彈性跟務實的管理才可以就是說讓這個事業單位真正的負起責任而且要多鼓勵跟這個宣導公安文化那如何的發展讓勞資一起重視合作那希望我們的職災尤其是重大職災可以趕快"},{"start":835.783,"end":858.903,"text":"的下降,那也因為我有知道你2030年有定了目標啦但是謝謝委員的提醒,其實我們都把委員的一些建議,所有委員會的建議,我們當作我們未來能夠進步的一個推力啦,其實整個地條進步確實有一些困難,會有一些挑戰,但是我也跟我們同仁一起面對這個現況,做一些更好的一些追求"},{"start":859.517,"end":883.973,"text":"好那我也希望說2030年如果你有繼續在這個位置上你才可以看到這個成果才可以負責這個成果所以你如果要定要不要每一年定不要定2030年各位媒體報告其實是2030是國家2030的階段性的進行的這個目標但是我們每兩年每一年有做每年那個希望達成那個小目標或短期目標"},{"start":884.633,"end":885.876,"text":"請署長會後再跟委員做答案"}]}},{"id":"150401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bfea8a8929e3e891d8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e43e0eced403f9ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:04:44 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對不對我們要再努力對那因為以廣告來說的話就算你訂了新法可是他看他的廣告他也不管你什麼規範啊這才是我講說法制的問題那接下來我想請教實名制的部分嘛那現在臉書投資廣告現在有實名制嗎"},{"start":198.876,"end":220.768,"text":"有,Google的部分有新規定是去年6月30到9月14啦對對不對但是臉書說今年6月才要採取實名制報告委員我們在今天報告中後面有報告Google已經17月已經有寫我講FB啦FB是Meta吧Meta6月底他要改系統"},{"start":222.244,"end":226.427,"text":"我希望這個部分能夠去落實因為它確實是一個管制的一個可能的路徑為什麼我舉個例子"},{"start":250.026,"end":269.945,"text":"就是實際上臉書現在其實有些部分是有實名制的規定你知道是哪些部分嗎?蘇發不知道嗎?委員應該講的是政治廣告啊對啊政治廣告啊那透過臉書刊登社會議題選舉或政治相關的廣告就必須通過手機跟身份證認證嘛"},{"start":271.288,"end":272.169,"text":"為什麼我們不能在反詐騙早點跟他溝通呢?"},{"start":286.957,"end":288.497,"text":"我的建議很簡單啦既然新法也要開始跟這個FB溝通了嘛跟Meta溝通了嘛 對不對"},{"start":315.282,"end":343.758,"text":"我希望能夠把所謂的反詐騙這個跟政府的重視打假的是同等四肢吧我常常都覺得政府打假打所謂打假訊息打得很用力啦這也不是壞事啦可是在所謂打假訊息的這個努力度上如果能夠用在反詐騙的話我覺得可能才會交出比較好的成績單吧你認同嗎我們已經都很積極在跟這幾個社群平台在溝通反詐騙的部分"},{"start":344.603,"end":370.067,"text":"所以真的我覺得現在詐騙真的是變成國恥啊實際上很多的民眾我不知道各位有沒有接過那個詐騙的訊息啊有沒有接過啊 主委有接到過嗎任何的管道不管是在網路平台啊還是在你的LINE啊還是在你的那個電話啊有都有嘛因為我之前看過一個民調94%的國人都接過詐騙訊息啦"},{"start":373.629,"end":373.649,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150400","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150400","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b6674a41140eab1ec8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a602348c06207a9cc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:53:52 - 13:04:36","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":644,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:04:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:53:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1215,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時53分）謝謝主席。請法務部、內政部和數發部。"],["主席：請法務部、內政部和數發部。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天主席排了打詐這個案子非常好，國人最深惡痛絕的就是詐騙，我們常講魔高一尺，道要高一丈，什麼樣的詐騙都可以用，有沒有看到？最近搭上話題，詐騙集團還會用白沙屯媽祖免費貼圖來詐騙，一按下去之後，個資馬上就會被騙光，這是有心人士來做的，有沒有掌握這樣的訊息？警政署能不能先回復一下？因為現在粉紅超跑很夯，有沒有人按到這樣的訊息然後被詐騙，有沒有後續的報案？"],["黃副局長壬聰：跟委員報告，詐欺集團都會運用最新的時事來引誘，有關這個案子我們已經知道了，不過目前沒有收到民眾的報案。"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有收到報案，但是已經知道這個案子？"],["黃副局長壬聰：我們已經有掌握了。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，詐騙集團都會用最新的時事議題，像是2021年奧運，我們也說有搭上奧運這波熱潮；WBC的時候，有搭上中華隊的熱潮，現在又搭上粉紅超跑的熱潮，讓大家覺得詐騙集團真的一直在變化、一直在精進。因為有掌握了，我就先請教，因為本席選區就有民眾問萬一不小心點了怎麼辦？我們有任何機制、如何告訴民眾，如果真的不小心點了，有沒有自救措施？哪一個人可以回答我？數發部。"],["李次長懷仁：委員我先跟你報告，第一，我們當然是先跟民眾推廣要認明有認證的帳號，特別是很明顯的，例如白沙屯本來就有自己的帳號，它有它認證的帳號，非認證的帳號都不要亂點。第二，相關的資訊數位部有掌握，第一時間有跟LINE溝通，請它們下架這個貼圖。"],["洪委員孟楷：你說數位部怎麼樣？第一時間怎麼樣？"],["李次長懷仁：第一時間有掌握貼圖的狀況，也有跟LINE溝通，請它們下架假的貼圖。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在下架了嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：應該下架了。"],["洪委員孟楷：應該？能不能確認一下。現在本席要問的是，從以前到現在，我們都一直有這樣的疑問，這也是本席一直講說我們打詐1.5寫得沸沸揚揚，而且每一個部會，我今天看了各部會的資料，大家都寫得非常好，好像作文比賽一樣，但我現在想問，民眾也想知道，如果不小心點了，有沒有任何的補救機制或反應機制、申訴機制？哪一個部會？"],["李次長懷仁：補救機制或檢舉機制、申訴機制現在都有，立刻檢舉。"],["洪委員孟楷：在哪裡？"],["李次長懷仁：LINE上面右上角本來就有一個檢舉帳號。"],["洪委員孟楷：你這樣就是推給民眾，民眾就是自己去跟業者來申訴，是不是？"],["李次長懷仁：沒有，他也可以跟165，兩個都可以，我只是說最快的方式，他直接在頁面就可以檢舉。"],["洪委員孟楷：照這樣的講法，民眾的個資在按下去那一刻就已經被掌握了，有沒有任何的補救機制？"],["李次長懷仁：這個我自己走過一遍，理論上按下去個資不會拿到，只會拿到一個LINE帳號。"],["洪委員孟楷：只會拿到LINE帳號？"],["李次長懷仁：對，它是有個網頁叫你填入其他的個資。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是說如果民眾還沒有到填入個資的部分……"],["李次長懷仁：是沒有問題的。"],["洪委員孟楷：就沒有問題？"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是這樣嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這跟LINE有確認過嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：我自己走過一遍。"],["洪委員孟楷：國人最沒有辦法理解的就是打詐已經打那麼多次，到底現在整個訊息都是非常模糊，我覺得數發部應該要很務實的告訴國人要怎麼因應這樣的詐騙型態，我們還是要強調詐騙型態五花八門，會利用最新的時事，這也是我們說的魔高一尺，道應該高一丈。再請教內政部，今天報告第5頁講到詐欺被告人數，111年有一萬五千多人，112年有一萬八千多人，這些人數有沒有重複的？本席為什麼覺得這個問題很重要，因為一萬五千多人被告、一萬八千多人被告，到底有多少比例是重複的？如果有重複的就代表這群人就是詐騙集團持續被抓不怕，抓了又放、放了又抓，他是不是就持續在詐騙，代表罰不怕，罰不怕就兩個原因，一個就是這個市場太好做了，所以他們就有恃無恐。另外一個就是認為他們很囂張啊！2022年一萬五千多人被抓，但是抓了又放出去，2023年一萬八千多人，你們說查獲詐欺被告人數成長16%，好像很厲害，但實際上到底有多少人是重複的，有沒有這樣的數據？"],["黃副局長壬聰：報告委員，重複的一定是有，不過我們手上沒有很精確的去比對這個數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果連這個數據都沒有的話，我們怎麼樣再延伸？其實這就是問題，我覺得從過去到現在講詐騙講那麼久，我們一直講兩個部分，一個是嚴刑峻罰，在之前有沒有辦法用強力的法令嚇阻這些詐騙集團，不管是車手，不管是首腦，不管是任何詐騙集團的人，只要抓到，我們會罰，罰到你叫不敢！這當然要我們通力檢討，大家一起來配合，很多委員也在提案修法。","但另外一方面，如果你們沒有掌握的話，那這些人就是持續囂張，抓了又放、放了又抓，累的是我們基層的同仁。我就說我一直都是站在第一線的警務人員這邊，上禮拜的警友民防餐會，都還有所長、分局長到現場重複在講大家不要被詐騙，都還在宣導165反詐騙。我們同仁每一次遇到這種餐會，都還在宣導，但是怎麼樣把這一批人從源頭管理？你都已經知道有一萬五千多人、一萬八千多人，那重複的人在哪裡？有沒有辦法針對這個部分更加強？我覺得這才是重點，不要抓了又放、放了又抓。","最後，我想請教數發部。本席一直講源頭管理很重要，個資不要外洩，數發部今天的資料第三頁「辦理行政檢查作業」，說針對重大個資外洩的業者加強行政檢查。請問過去兩年多檢查了幾家？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，我們成立還不到兩年，數發部成立才一年多。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，一年半快兩年的時間，檢查了幾家？"],["李次長懷仁：檢查的部分，我們做了24家。"],["洪委員孟楷：24家。"],["李次長懷仁：但是有28家次，有的有作2次以上。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不管是24家還是28次，你平均一個月2次。你檢查的是哪一些啊？從過去到現在國人對於數發部最期待的就是要加強個資保護的檢查。"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就應該是所有只要有蒐集個資的公司，你把它列出來各行業別前三名，你們重點先去稽查，但是到目前為止，成立了快兩年的時間，才做了28次行政檢查，平均一個月2次左右，無怪乎人家會覺得數發部真的在個資保管或源頭管理都沒有辦法盡責啊！"],["李次長懷仁：委員，是不是讓我說明一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：不是嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，是不是讓我說明一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得28次夠嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，是不是讓我說明一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，你覺得28次夠嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，有個前提先讓我說明一下。我們沒有管理到各行各業的個資，這是第一件，我們針對的是電商的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們針對電商沒有錯，本席一直強調數發部的功能是什麼？每一次只要遇到，除了要去處理以外，更重要的是你們也要維護、檢視資安相關的部分嘛！不然也不會有什麼影城的app突然被駭客入侵之後，50萬筆個資就被人家盜用。"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席一直強調這50萬筆……"],["李次長懷仁：這有分工……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以這是誰的責任？"],["李次長懷仁：如果是影城，會是文化部的責任，我們的資安院會在他們發動的時候，配合去檢查，所以不會算在我們這邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，本席沒有辦法接受。所以你們主動稽查的部分是……"],["李次長懷仁：我們主動是針對我們主管的行業。"],["洪委員孟楷：主動稽查的部分……"],["李次長懷仁：我們主管的職業。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點在於數發部的職權內容，本席一而再、再而三強調，你們應該要主動積極針對各行業，至少掌握個資的單位……"],["李次長懷仁：我們沒有法律的權限，跟委員報告，我們沒有法律的權限可以主動稽查各行業。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們可以邀請其他部門配合共同去辦理。"],["李次長懷仁：所以其他部會一發動，我們都去！"],["洪委員孟楷：你這樣還是沒有積極，你還是可以要求其他部門共同去辦。"],["李次長懷仁：我也沒有權限要求其他部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是你沒有權限的問題，這是做不做的問題。"],["李次長懷仁：我們都很願意積極做，這都沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，可是本席沒有看到你們積極作為啊！"],["李次長懷仁：我們會強化。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，國人也沒有看到數發部的積極作為。其實最重點在於什麼？重點在於源頭如果沒有管理，個資沒有辦法控管，各行各業的企業到底有沒有做好資安把關，只要個資一漏出去，就很有可能被詐騙集團使用，而詐騙集團來詐騙，其實就是因為它掌握了個資，這才是重點！"],["主席：洪委員時間到了。"],["李次長懷仁：委員講的，我們都很支持，但是分工上……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然支持，就請要有積極的作為！"],["李次長懷仁：我們會請各部會幫忙。"],["主席：請資料後補。現在請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝喔我想今天主席排的這個案子非常的好打詐國人最生物痛絕就是詐騙那我們先看喔我們常常講是說道高磨高一尺道要高一丈什麼樣的詐騙都可以用有沒有看到最近"},{"start":29.366,"end":57.271,"text":"居然搭上話題詐騙集團他們還會用白沙屯媽祖免費貼圖來詐騙一按下去之後馬上就會各司就會被騙光了那這有心人士來做有沒有掌握這樣的一個訊息警政署能不能先回覆一下內政部有沒有掌握現在因為很夯嘛粉紅超跑那有沒有人按到這樣的一個訊息然後被詐騙或所有後續的一個報案"},{"start":59.171,"end":87.074,"text":"跟委員報告這個詐欺集團都會運用最新的一個時事來引誘那這個有關這個案子我們已經知道了不過目前還沒有收到民眾的報案還沒有收到報案但是知道這個案子我們已經有掌握了好沒有錯詐騙集團都會用最新的時事議題不管那個時候2021年的時候奧運我們也講就是有搭上奧運這一波熱潮WBC的時候有搭上中華隊的熱潮現在粉紅超跑又搭上粉紅超跑的熱潮"},{"start":88.014,"end":113.653,"text":"讓大家就覺得說詐騙集團真的是變化一直在變化一直在精進啊那我們這樣有掌握了我想先請教因為本席的選區就有民眾就有問說那如果說真的不小心點了怎麼辦我們有任何機制如果告訴民眾如果說真的不小心點了有沒有自救措施來哪一個人可以回答我不管是速發部速發部"},{"start":115.714,"end":143.544,"text":"委員我先跟你們報告第一個這個我們當然是先這個跟民眾推廣他還是要認明這個有認證的帳號特別是這種很明顯的是比如說白沙頓他本來就有他自己的帳號他有他認證的帳號這個非認證的帳號的東西就不要亂點第二個是相關的資訊數位部這邊有掌握第一時間有跟LINE溝通請他們要下架這個事情你說數位部怎麼樣第一時間數位部也有掌握這個貼圖的狀況也有跟LINE溝通請他們要下架這個假的貼圖那現在下架了嗎應該是下架了應該"},{"start":145.27,"end":163.978,"text":"能不能確認一下來但是現在本席要問的是那如果說從以前到現在我們都一直有這樣子的一個疑問這也是本席一直在講說我們數打詐1.5寫得沸沸揚揚而且每一個部會我今天看了各部會的一個資料大家都寫得非常好像在作文比賽一樣"},{"start":165.117,"end":176.45,"text":"但是我現在想問民眾也想知道那如果說不小心點了有沒有任何的補救機制或者是反應機制、申訴機制哪一個部會"},{"start":178.24,"end":205.787,"text":"委員我先說明,申訴這個補救機制或檢舉機制、申訴機制現在上面都有,立刻檢舉在哪裡?LINE上面右上角本來就有一個檢舉帳號你這樣就是推給民眾,民眾就是自己去跟業者來申訴,是不是?沒有,他也可以跟165,兩個都可以,我只是說最快的方式他直接在那個頁面就可以檢舉可以檢舉嘛,但我現在問的是說民眾的個資已經被,如果說照這樣子的講法是民眾個資在按下去的那一刻就已經被"},{"start":206.909,"end":220.724,"text":"被掌握了那有沒有任何的補救機制我自己走過一遍他理論上按下去個資不會拿到他只會拿到你的LINE帳號那你只會拿到LINE帳號對那後續怎麼他是有一個網頁要叫你填入其他的個資"},{"start":222.27,"end":244.593,"text":"所以就是變成是說只要民眾還沒有到填入各自的部分是沒有問題的就沒有問題對是這樣嗎是這是跟賴這邊有確認過嗎我自己走過一遍你走現在國人最沒有辦法理解的就是說已經打詐打那麼多次到底現在整個的一個訊息都是非常的模糊"},{"start":245.214,"end":245.655,"text":"我再請教一下內政部"},{"start":264.195,"end":275.085,"text":"今天有特別的報告有講是說在第5月你們講說詐欺被告人數111年有15000多人112年有18000多人這一些人數有沒有重複的?本席為什麼覺得這個問題很重要?因為"},{"start":290.387,"end":301.566,"text":"一萬五千多人被告一萬八千多人被告那到底有多少比例是重複的如果說有重複的就代表是說這一群人就是詐騙集團就持續他被抓了不怕"},{"start":302.802,"end":322.194,"text":"抓了又放放了又抓他是不是就持續的在做詐騙那代表他罰不怕那罰不怕就兩個原因一個就是說這個市場真的太好做了所以他們就有恃無恐嘛那另外一個部分就認為是說他們很囂張啊他2022年一萬五千多人被抓查獲但是"},{"start":322.754,"end":335.076,"text":"他抓了又放出去2023年18000多人你們講是說查獲詐欺被告人數成長16%好像很厲害但實際上這到底有多少人是重複的有沒有這樣的一個數據"},{"start":337.421,"end":351.578,"text":"包委員,這個重複的一定是有啦,不過我們手上是沒有這個很精確的去比對這個數字。那如果說連這個數據都沒有的話,我們怎麼樣再延伸?其實這就是問題。我覺得過去到現在我們講詐騙講了那麼久。"},{"start":353.8,"end":370.112,"text":"我們就一直講是說兩個部分一個是嚴峻禁法法令在之前有沒有辦法用強力的法令去讓嚇阻這些詐騙集團不管是車手不管是首腦不管是任何詐騙集團的人只要抓到我們會罰到你叫不敢"},{"start":371.347,"end":383.886,"text":"這當然我們通力檢討我們大家一起來配合我們很多委員也在做提案修法但另外一方面是說如果說你們沒有掌握的話那這一些人就是持續囂張啊抓了又放放了又抓啊那不是累的是我們基層的同仁"},{"start":385.066,"end":406.777,"text":"我就講說我都是一直站在我們第一線的警務人員喔我都講是說這上禮拜我們僅有在民防的這個參會都還有所長都還有分局長到現場都還是重複在講說大家要不要被詐騙啊165反詐騙都還是宣導我們同仁每一次遇到這種參會都還是宣導但是源頭管理"},{"start":407.617,"end":419.669,"text":"你怎麼樣去把這一批人你都已經知道有一萬五千多人一萬八千多人那重複的人在哪裡有沒有辦法針對這個部分去做一個更加強我覺得這才是重點不要抓了又放放了又抓"},{"start":422.385,"end":441.528,"text":"來最後我想請教一下那個速發部速發部你今天的第三點的資料本席也一直提講源頭管理很重要各資不要外洩你第三頁的資料辦理行政檢查作業講說重大各資外洩的業者加強行政檢查"},{"start":443.667,"end":466.804,"text":"過去兩年多檢查了幾家?跟委員報告我們成立還不到兩年,我們一年多一年多檢查了幾家?一年半快兩年的時間檢查了幾家?檢查的部分我們做了24家但是28家次有的有兩次以上不管24家還是28次啊那你平均一個月兩次啊"},{"start":467.998,"end":487.219,"text":"我們的能量有你檢查是哪一些啊我們都講是說過去到現在國人對於速發布最期待的就是你要加強這個個資的保護的一個檢查他就應該是說所有只要有收集個資的公司你把它列出來各行業別前三名你們正點先去稽查"},{"start":487.959,"end":505.623,"text":"但是你到目前為止成立了快兩年的時間你才做了28次的行政檢查平均一個月兩次左右那無怪乎人家會覺得是說你速發部真的在個資保管或是源頭管理這邊都沒有辦法做一個盡責啊是不是讓委員讓我說明一下不是嗎你覺得28次夠嗎"},{"start":508.069,"end":527.312,"text":"委員是不是讓我說明一下沒有關係你覺得28次夠嗎委員先生有個前提先讓我說明一下這個我們沒有管理到各行各業的個資這就是第一件事情我們針對是電商的部分你們接受電商沒有錯但是就是每一次只要遇到有本席一直強調速發部的功能是什麼除了"},{"start":527.933,"end":554.133,"text":"除了要去做一個處理以外更重要是你們也要去維護相關去檢視人家的資安的部分嘛不然也不會有那種什麼隱成的APP突然被人家駭客入侵之後然後50萬筆的個資就被人家盜用本期一直強調是說這50萬筆的所以說這是誰的責任如果是隱成它會是文化部的責任我們的資安院會在他們發動的時候配合去檢查所以不會算在我們這邊"},{"start":555.725,"end":557.986,"text":"所以其他部會一發動我們都去"},{"start":584.67,"end":611.147,"text":"你這樣你還是沒有積極你還是可以要求其他部門共同去辦理我也沒有權限要求其他部門去這不是你沒有權限的問題這是做不做的問題我們都很願意積極做這個都沒有問題市長對不對市長本席沒有看到你們積極作為我說實在話國人也沒有看到速發部的積極作為其實最重點在於是什麼重點在於是源頭如果沒有管理你各自沒有辦法去做一個控管"},{"start":611.727,"end":612.348,"text":"主席"},{"start":642.182,"end":642.564,"text":"下一個質詢請羅志強羅委員"}]}},{"id":"150399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b19de17583ac61a83cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dd502cc2602e8e7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"12:56:43 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13:01:17","影片長度":"00:04:34","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":274,"end_time":"2024-03-25T13:01:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:56:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1152,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（12時56分）有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：剛剛林憶君委員所言的，我跟他同在，他的心聲，我跟他一樣，我們一定為花東快不斷地發聲。今天不是違憲的問題，我們叫天天不應，叫地地不靈，我們不是孤兒，我們都是父母生的，我今天為臺東、花蓮來發聲，因為我本身是臺東人，我必須要講的是，除了花蓮之外，我們原住民族在臺東的人口數是最多的，人口數第一多的是花蓮，第二是臺東，第三是桃園。對在臺東、花蓮的居民來講，第一，真的是要靠有一條安全的道路，可以回家。第二，可以讓他們的新興產業產生觀光產業。我們農業的大鎮，必須要透過交通的要塞。今天我講一個，花東快在民國100年的時候就已經提出，結果計畫一拖再拖，112年11月27日行政院通過國道1號楊梅至頭份段拓展的工程，總經費總共是1314.15億，平均造價是一公里36.5億，在民國100年通過花東快速道路重啟的工程，經過了幾年之後，平均造價已經是一公里13.2億，當初花東快在100年通過，為什麼一拖再拖？請問一下，有沒有違憲？很多民進黨委員現在說是違憲，什麼叫違憲？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們支持花東快速公路或是花東的建設，我現在談的是，我們是覺得即使不用條例，我們也會按照我們的行政程序來支持，不是說這個建設違憲或是建設不可行，是在講說條例好像不需要，我們現在就用我們程序就可以做了。"],["黃委員仁：好。因為我今天以一個臺東人的心聲來跟部長拜託，花東快就是我們交通的母親……"],["王部長國材：是。"],["黃委員仁：我們必須要透過這個交通能夠快速地通過之後，讓臺東、花蓮的觀光產業，包含我們農業的產業能夠更趨發達。我們不是孤兒！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["黃委員仁：我們不是孤兒！不要老是北重，然後輕我們臺東、花蓮，這樣的情形對我們來講情何以堪？我們很多的訴求，臺東，叫不靈；花蓮，天不靈，原因在哪裡？執政有沒有這個魄力，你們有沒有針對花東的立場，來表達你們真正的誠意？"],["王部長國材：是，我跟委員報告，比如南迴公路的拓寬，屏東到臺東也都做完了。南迴鐵路……"],["黃委員仁：我現在講的是花東快啦！花東快！你現在什麼時候可以……"],["王部長國材：8月，8月可行性才會完成，8月。"],["黃委員仁：希望不要再拖了，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["黃委員仁：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃仁委員發言。","下一位請蘇清泉委員發言。蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","王美惠委員發言。王美惠、王美惠不在。","鄭正鈐委員發言。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐不在。","林思銘委員發言。林思銘、林思銘不在。","顏寬恒委員發言。顏寬恒、顏寬恒不在。","張嘉郡委員發言。張嘉郡、張嘉郡不在。","林楚茵委員發言。林楚茵、林楚茵不在。","楊瓊瓔委員發言。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔不在。","麥玉珍委員發言。麥玉珍、麥玉珍不在。","陳俊宇委員發言。陳俊宇、陳俊宇不在。","登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢。作以下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員劉建國、陳俊宇、蔡其昌所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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12:51:23","影片長度":"00:05:22","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":322,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:51:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:46:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時46分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。","各位可以用餐，沒關係。"],["王部長國材：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長，你知道什麼是「民之所欲，常在我心」的意思嗎？你知道花東人最在意的交通建設是什麼事情嗎？我們花東人不過就只有卑躬屈膝地懇求一條方便回家的道路，有那麼困難嗎？"],["王部長國材：沒有，現在就是安全回家的路，我們持續來做建設。"],["林委員憶君：好。在今天交通部送來的書面報告中，交通部說明：本部長期以來，努力平衡東西的區域發展，近年來已經陸續投入了2,200億的改善花東地區鐵公路的交通建設。但問題是，為什麼我們花東的民眾都是完全無感呢？這是不是執政黨應該檢討的問題啊？表示你們這幾年交通建設的錢，是不是都沒有花在刀口上？沒有花在我們花東人的需求上，更沒有用在花東人的心上面，甚至把錢都浪費在打水漂，還有用在選舉綁樁，是不是這樣啊？"],["王部長國材：不是、不是。林委員，你看每一條，蘇花改重不重要？蘇花安重不重要？花東雙軌重不重要？花東的台9線景觀道路重不重要？這都是地方提出來，我們來協助的，所以每一項都是按照計畫來走。"],["林委員憶君：對啊。這些行程都很久，而且都沒有讓我們非常順利地回家，一旦發生落石或其他事故，我們等於隨時都是在危險中。"],["王部長國材：建設需要時間。"],["林委員憶君：現在話說在前頭，為了替花東的鄉親爭一條安全回家的路，就算被砲轟，我林憶君戴著鋼盔，也要陪著花東的鄉親向前衝，因為我一定是跟花東鄉親在同一個陣線上的。","好，我們先來看上週二3月19日本席在院會總質詢，針對民進黨執政8年如何才能讓花東人有感，讓花東人在交通建設上不要再被忽視，讓花東人的發展與西部一樣的繁榮。部長，你要給花東百姓一條安全回家的路，請問我們還要等多久？"],["王部長國材：現在進行式，一直在做，我想……"],["林委員憶君：到底還要繼續欺騙花東人多久？難不成要等到花東有民進黨的人當上縣長和立委，你們才要開始建設呢？部長，3月19日院會質詢的當天，你是否有承諾對於紛擾多年的花東快建設的可行性評估，預計在今年8月你們就可以完成了，而且總經費初估是2,000億，可是今天報告是2,555億，是不是這樣？"],["王部長國材：是，就是8月要完成，8月要完成。"],["林委員憶君：好，這確實是本席非常樂見的，畢竟這是花東地區的民眾都期盼的一條重要道路，終於有一點點新的進度了。本席再請教一個問題，你們自己評估預算要超過2,000億的經費，交通部如果堅持反對編列特別預算，那到底準備未來如何編列預算呢？錢要從哪裡來？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，你剛才談到的蘇花改、蘇花安，都是走行政院的中長程個案計畫，也就是可行性、綜合規劃、環評、核定……"],["林委員憶君：我知道，這個我都知道。"],["王部長國材：這個計畫也一樣。"],["林委員憶君：但是你知道，民進黨執政，推動前瞻計畫的時候，8年的時間投入的總經費有8,400億元的特別預算，光是交通建設，各大重要的建設都是「搞軌」的軌道建設，這個就已經投入了4,200億了，而且是特別預算，如果這些預算可以的話，那麼這是執政黨為了選舉綁樁的大撒幣嗎？這樣就可以編列嗎？然後現在就不能編列嗎？是這個樣子嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟林委員報告，過去有編特別預算，比如疫後的部分是整包，另外就是前瞻軌道部分也是整包，但是每一個個案計畫過去都是走中長程計畫來處理，所以我們現在已經在走……"],["林委員憶君：我知道是中長程計畫，但是中長程計畫是真的走很久，而且今天你們對立法院的書面報告明明就是明目張膽直接打槍，藐視國會議員，而且委員們都想要幫你們找財源，委員的提案卻被你們說成有違憲之虞，那請問交通部，你們要怎麼編列預算，讓我們花蓮人有感，而且沒有違憲，又可以公平地照顧我們東部民眾的交通建設需求呢？"],["王部長國材：我們現在的態度就是啟動花東快速公路的計畫，趕快在8月把可行性評估做完，如果可行性評估通過，然後要做綜合規劃、環評，我們現在就是這樣來支持。我們今天談的是，我已經有中長程的行政審查程序，全國的每一個個案計畫都是這樣。"],["林委員憶君：但是你們今天竟然說有窒礙難行之處，沒有辦法推動，那是不是鬼打牆？"],["王部長國材：這個是在講條例，不是講建設，我再跟委員報告一下。"],["林委員憶君：好吧，反正就是務必一定要讓我們期盼的重大交通道路儘快推動，讓我們有一條安全、快速、可以回家的路，好嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林憶君委員的發言。","下一位請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長好 請部長各位可以用餐沒關係啦 可以用餐部長 你知道什麼是民之所欲藏在我心的意思嗎你知道花東人最在意的交通建設是什麼事情嗎我們花東人不過就只有屈膝卑躬地懇求一條方便回家的道路 有那麼困難嗎"},{"start":40.883,"end":47.928,"text":"在今天交通部送來的書面報告中,交通部說明本部長期以來努力平衡東西的區域發展"},{"start":49.062,"end":75.604,"text":"近年來已經陸續投入了2200億的改善花東地區的鐵公路的交通建設但問題是為什麼我們花東的民眾都是完全無感呢這是不是執政黨應該檢討的問題啊表示你們這幾年交通建設的錢是不是都沒有花在包口上沒有花在我們花東人的需求上更沒有用在花東人的心上面甚至把錢都浪費在打水漂還有用在選舉綁裝"},{"start":77.205,"end":100.976,"text":"是不是這樣呢?不是不是因為你看每一條蘇花改重不重要?蘇花安重不重要?花東雙軌重不重要?花東的台九縣景觀道重不重要?這個都是地方提出來我們來協助的對啊但是這個時程都很久而且都沒有讓我們非常順利的回家一旦有時候發生了有一些落實怎麼樣隨時都是在危險中"},{"start":101.696,"end":102.657,"text":"我一定是跟花東相親是在同一個陣線上的"},{"start":118.966,"end":147.413,"text":"現在來看有關上週二的3月19號本席在院會總諮詢針對民進黨的執政8年如何才能讓花東人有感讓花東人在交通建設上不要再被忽視讓花東人的發展與西部一樣的繁榮部長你要給花東百姓一條安全回家的路請問我們還要等多久啊現在在進行是一直在我們到底還要繼續欺騙花東人多久了難不成是不是要等到花東"},{"start":148.573,"end":165.782,"text":"的有民進黨的人當上縣長和立委你們才要開始建設呢?部長3月19號月會質詢的當天你是否有承諾對於分老多年的花東快建設可行性的評估預計在今年8月你們就可以完成了而且總經費是初估是2000億可是今天報告是2555億是不是這樣呢?是就是8月完成8月完成"},{"start":172.805,"end":172.965,"text":"稍後再請教"},{"start":188.901,"end":206.297,"text":"這樣的話堅持反對編列特別預算那到底準備未來如何編列預算呢錢要從哪裡來我跟委員報告齁你剛有談到比如說我們疏發改疏挖案齁都是走行政院的中長程個案計畫也就是說可行性綜合規劃環評核定"},{"start":208.419,"end":230.439,"text":"我知道我知道這個我都知道但是你知道民進黨執政的時候推動的前瞻計畫的時候8年的時間投入的總經費有8400億元的特別預算光是交通建設的話各大重要的建設都是搞軌的軌道建設這個就已經投入了4200億了啊而且這個是特別預算啊如果這些預算可以的話那為什麼"},{"start":232.401,"end":237.666,"text":"那是執政黨的為了要選舉綁關的大傻逼嗎?這樣就可以編列嗎?然後現在就不能編列嗎?是這個樣子嗎?"},{"start":240.61,"end":265.426,"text":"過去有比如說對於比如說易厚的這個部分整包另外就是前瞻軌道也是整包但是每一個個案計畫過去都是走中長城計畫來處理所以我們現在有計畫中長城計畫但是中長城計畫是真的走很久而且今天你們立法院的書面報告上面明明就是明目張膽直接打牆藐視國會議員而且委員們都想要幫你們找裁員的提案"},{"start":266.646,"end":288.256,"text":"卻被你們說成有違憲之餘那請問交通部你們要怎麼編列預算呢讓我們花蓮人有感而且沒有違憲又可以公平的照顧我們東部民眾的交通建設的需求呢我們現在的態度就是啟動花東快速公路的趕快8月把可行性做完如果可行性通過然後就綜合規劃環評我們現在就是這樣來支持"},{"start":291.658,"end":309.08,"text":"我們今天談的是說我已經有中山城的這種所謂行政的審查的程序全國的每一個個案計畫都是這樣但是你們今天居然說至愛南行之處沒有辦法推動這是在講條例不是講建設我再跟委員報告一下"},{"start":310.469,"end":310.649,"text":"好嗎?好,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"150396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b873abb4740ab2e78cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a67bed10a2a74c501c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"12:38:21 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12:45:49","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":448,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:45:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:38:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（12時38分）請王部長備詢。"],["主席：王部長。"],["王部長國材：你好。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，您剛剛說過花東快速道路是行政院中長型計畫的大型交通建設，對於北北基地區來講，另外一個極為重要的中長期大型交通建設就是基隆捷運。請問一下，您知道基隆捷運目前的進行路線嗎？你是否知道？"],["王部長國材：我知道。"],["林委員沛祥：好。那您知道基捷經過的路線有絕大部分都是貨櫃的內陸集散站？"],["王部長國材：因為當時提到這邊未來會做一些都市計畫變更……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是絕大多數都是內陸集散站，所謂的內陸集散站，如果以航運來講的話，嚴格講起來，如果沒有內陸集散站，這個港口勢必會被毀滅。也就是說，當基隆捷運正式進入基隆市區之前，基隆港就被滅了，因為基隆港將會沒有後場，也就是沒有土地來做多國拆併櫃。基隆跟高雄是不一樣的，高雄在港區旁邊是有許多土地的，如果沒有土地來做多國拆併櫃的話，我很難想像航商會願意把30%的貨櫃留在基隆做多國拆併櫃之後，再把70%流到臺北港去做多國拆併櫃。"],["王部長國材：我跟林委員報告，縱然它經過，然後有一些這個貨櫃的集散地，如果它還有它的功能，我並不覺得……"],["林委員沛祥：本席想要問的第二個問題……"],["王部長國材：它可以轉型，不是全部都把它變成都市……"],["林委員沛祥：本席在院會質詢的時候，我很擔心，那時候部長也在場，本席直接問陳建仁院長，賴清德總統在今天在去年12月24日講的，要把五堵、六堵、七堵所有的貨櫃集散地往臺北港塞，這件事是否是真的？","不好意思，長官，我沒有請你備詢。"],["王部長國材：是，我是覺得這個是按照所有業者的需求……"],["林委員沛祥：這就是本席要講的……"],["王部長國材：我絕對不會說什麼……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我今天是做理性的討論，我不是來罵人的。"],["王部長國材：是，我瞭解。"],["林委員沛祥：可是這個事情對基隆是絕對重要的事情，因為你可能會害得基隆市因此有更大的財務危機跟經濟危機。"],["王部長國材：沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：第二點，想請問一下，部長，您既然對基隆港這麼瞭解，你知道基隆港的在地就業機會有幾個嗎？"],["王部長國材：數字我……"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，長官，我並沒有請你上台備詢。","我可以很負責地跟部長您報告，是13,000個到15,000個，換句話說，有13,000個到15,000個家庭目前還在基隆港工作，在全盛時期，基隆港曾經到將近40,000人甚至45,000人，所以基隆有很多外來人口，是從1980年代、1970年代開始的，但是之前本席在基隆市議會的時候，一直聽到北五堵科技園區，請問交通部知道這個事情嗎？"],["王部長國材：我知道，因為那時候應該是林右昌市長的時候，他有一個計畫，他想……"],["林委員沛祥：請問，北五堵科技園區何時興建完成？現在有報行政院嗎？有核定過嗎？因為這跟基隆捷運有絕對的關係，基隆捷運直接從中間經過北五堵科技園區，甚至很多徵收的土地，都是因為北五堵科技園區而去做的。"],["王部長國材：是，當時有一個計畫是補助基隆市政府做規劃。"],["林委員沛祥：所以現在沒有全何規劃……"],["王部長國材：現在還沒有，應該還沒有到都市計劃程序，我不知道現在謝市長他們進行得怎麼樣，我不是很清楚。"],["林委員沛祥：以當初林右昌市長的規劃，或者現在林右昌部長的規劃，他有沒有保留過倉儲用地呢？倉儲用地就是交通部的業務了吧？"],["王部長國材：當時北五堵是以造新鎮的方式。"],["林委員沛祥：所以完全沒有保留倉儲用地嗎？"],["王部長國材：沿線應該有一些保留，但是北五堵當時他當作一個最重要的開發地方……"],["林委員沛祥：部長，您也知道，剛剛啓楷委員也講過，國道客運塞車是很嚴重的事情，尤其是基隆到臺北端。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員沛祥：每天早上本席要從6時15分出發，才不會塞車，從6時55分到8時，我相信所有的學術研究都講過了，如果你沒有把這15,000人好好地留在基隆上班，他們就會想盡辦法上國道，不管是國道1號還是國道3號，直接天天塞車，到新北跟臺北。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員沛祥：那個時候你的客運和你的捷運，我們不知道10年之後是不是能夠順利完工，我們也不知道客運是不是能夠找到那麼多的司機，甚至我們也不知道火車是否能夠輔助我們現在的運輸功能，你現在跟我講什麼都不知道的時候，然後貨櫃集散站要拆，因為12月24日我曾經問過陳建仁院長，那時候陳院長跟我說是不會的，但是現在部長您說現在的狀況不知道，對吧？"],["王部長國材：我是覺得透過都市計畫來檢討，跟業者有沒有要轉型，我覺得這個部分真的是要從需求面來看。"],["林委員沛祥：如果從需求面來看的話，我一直聽到航商直接給我的反映，他們想留在基隆港，因為如果搬到臺北港，只有一條台64線，如果被炸掉，或是一個地震，造成台64線不能通行之後，所有北臺灣的貨運會癱瘓，對吧？"],["王部長國材：是。我跟委員報告，我從來……"],["林委員沛祥：我只是問說「對吧」，因為說真的，我以前在臺北港任職過，部長，你也知道我的resume，我在臺北港任職過，所以我知道台64線多重要，我也不希望台64線出事，但是只要台64線出事，臺北港將整個癱瘓，對吧？"],["王部長國材：應該不要這麼說……"],["林委員沛祥：要去做空港聯營，是吧？"],["王部長國材：我覺得基礎設施要維護，不會那麼脆弱。"],["林委員沛祥：空港聯營是不夠的，所以本席在這邊特地強力建議，麻煩部長跟交通部，甚至中央政府，要幫基隆人，要幫辛苦的基隆人想多一點。在地的13,000到15,000個工作，是因為有基隆貨櫃港，而不是基隆郵輪港，到目前為止，郵輪港製造當地的就業機會不到2,000個，我可以很負責任地講，因為我敢講港口。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["林委員沛祥：我知道港務公司現在還在做成效不佳的自營櫃場，那是不是可以可憐一下航商，讓航商能夠繼續留在基隆呢？"],["王部長國材：我們也沒有趕航商。"],["林委員沛祥：航商會為了自己而離開，是因為沒有後場的原因，部長，這就是我們兩邊有一點落差的地方。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員沛祥：航商會因為沒有後場的原因，自動跑到臺北港，他們不想去臺北港，因為臺北港如果台64線出問題，所有貨運全部爛掉，那基隆至少有兩條高速公路，一條國1，一條國3，可以很順利地運送貨物。"],["王部長國材：基礎的交通網路，我覺得兩邊都完整，最重要的就是，基隆港的建設，我們並沒有把貨運停掉，我們現在是內客外貨。"],["林委員沛祥：內客外貨是十幾年前的港務政策，是不是還在內客外貨，還是東客西貨，未來我們再來討論。現在時間到了，但是我希望未來針對是否能夠把基隆港的貨櫃航商留在基隆，我相信部裡面要給我完整的書面回答。"],["王部長國材：好，OK。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林沛祥委員的發言。","下一位請林憶君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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那如果需求面的話我一直聽到航商直接給我的反應他們想留在基隆港因為如果你搬到台北港你只有一個64號隨時被炸掉還是隨時一個地震觀音山64號被炸掉被地震之後所有北台灣的貨運會癱瘓"},{"start":329.932,"end":345.288,"text":"我只是會說對吧因為說真的我以前在台北港任職過我想部長您也知道我的resume我以前在台北港任職過所以我知道64號多重要我也不希望64號出事但是只要64號出事之後台北港整個癱瘓對吧"},{"start":347.129,"end":372.074,"text":"應該不要這麼說我覺得就有設施要去做空港聯營嗎空港聯營是不夠的所以說北溪在這邊特地強力建議麻煩部長跟交通部甚至中央政府要幫基隆人要幫辛苦的基隆人想多一點在地的13000到15000工作因為基隆商港基隆貨櫃港基隆貨櫃港而不是基隆郵輪港郵輪港到目前為止"},{"start":372.814,"end":389.848,"text":"制造當地的就業機會不到2000我可以很負責任的講因為港口我敢講港口而這邊的話我知道港務公司現在還在做成效不佳的自營櫃場那是不是可以可憐一下說讓行商能夠繼續留在基隆呢"},{"start":390.562,"end":418.176,"text":"我們也沒有趕航商耶沒有,航商會為了自己因為沒有後廠的原因部長這就是我們兩邊有點落差的地方航商會因為沒有後廠的原因自動跑到台北港他們不想去台北港因為台北港如果一個64號出問題所有貨運全部爛掉那基隆至少有兩條高速公路一條國一一條國三可以很順利的運送貨物我想那個基礎的交通網路我是覺得兩邊都完整"},{"start":419.116,"end":419.416,"text":"謝謝林沛祥"}]}},{"id":"150395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b80d05dfc9710a6e08506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a67bed10a2a74c501c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：主計長好、辛苦了。原民會有提一個花東地區原住民族部落聚會所興建行動計畫，這個之所以會提，是本席和國發會在討論花東基金要以公務為主、基金為輔的原則，提出了計畫會給主計總處，主計總處的意見提到，花蓮縣及臺東縣目前已經興建完成及發包施工中的部落聚會所分別為116座和101座，這是花蓮和臺東加起來，總共217座，所以你們也提到平均約700人即享有一座聚會所，是否持續興建及整體設置數量合理性，應請原民會就興建密度、民眾使用需求及投入效益等，再妥為評估。因為主計總處不太了解原鄉部落聚會所的需要性，也讓主計長及主計總處的同仁了解一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，據我所知我們113年比112年增加了1.6億元，我也希望原民會能夠修正那個計畫，我們就可以處理了，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部落聚會所我們文化祭儀會用到，因為在鄉下不像都會區有餐廳、有飯店，所以部落相關結婚、喜宴、文教活動、社會教育活動都會在這邊進行。你看這個部落就是沒有聚會所，夏天大太陽非常熱，下大雨的時候淋雨，這就是沒有部落聚會所的地方，到現在還是沒有啊！結婚、喜宴搭這樣的棚子，在鄉下就是這樣，我們非常需要部落聚會所，有了部落聚會所就差很多，非常非常的實用。我們有七百多個部落，我擔心因為這句話就影響到整個部落聚會所相關經費的提出。主計總處在這次針對花東地區原住民族部落聚會所興建行動計畫裡面也提到「倘再支應旨揭計畫，將造成基金額外負擔或排擠既有計畫，考量花東基金運用範圍以符合長期產業發展事項為原則，爰建議貴會應通盤檢討花東基金資金配置，優先配置於確實可以促進花東地區永續發展之計畫」。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們不是不同意，因為經費是每年的預算，所以我們請原民會就它整個配置要檢討，做整個永續發展，我們並沒有反對做這個措施，更何況我們113年比112年增加了1.6億元，它應該做適當的分配，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最主要就是行政院所核定的原民會相關計畫就是欠缺這些經費，才不得不從花東基金來支應它的迫切需求，這個部分要請主計總處了解，尤其它符合花東地區發展條例第八條「縣主管機關針對花東地區原住民族生存保障與文化保存，應依原住民族基本法之規定，擬定相關計畫」，它是一個文化有關的、跟生活有關的，這個部分也要請主計總處未來多徵詢一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員非常清楚，一般都是要先有計畫，計畫通過以後，主計總處就會來編列預算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：確實一個部落需要一個聚會所，這是非常非常需要的地方，而且目前沒有部落聚會所的還非常多，在這邊要請主計總處未來要繼續支持，因為這對我們來說是一個需求非常大的地方。"],["朱主計長澤民：大家共同來努力，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：後面還有一些議題就不再請教，請主計長、主計總處繼續支持原住民族相關預算。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝，大家共同努力。"],["主席：大家辛苦了，現場開放用餐，因為時間關係，後面的委員本來到楊瓊瓔，我們就持續到質詢結束為止。現場所有與會者如果要上洗手間，請不用客氣。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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人民會的相關的計畫"},{"start":272.595,"end":298.521,"text":"就是欠缺了這些經費財會不得不從花東基金來去支應是他的一個迫切的需求所以這個部分是要請這個主計總處那個瞭解尤其是他是符合符合花東地區發展條例第8條現主管機關針對花東地區原住民族生存"},{"start":299.656,"end":301.684,"text":"保障與文化保存"},{"start":302.782,"end":325,"text":"因依原住民族基本法之規定擬定相關計畫他是一個文化有關的跟生活有關的部分所以這個部分要請這個主計總處會來的時候那個多徵詢一下謝謝那個委員您非常清楚嘛一般都是要先有計畫計畫通過以後我們主計總處就會來編列預算"},{"start":330.733,"end":353.628,"text":"對這個因為確實是一個一個部落必須要有一個機會手這個是非常非常的需要的地方所以而且目前還沒有部落機會手的還非常的非常的多所以在這邊要請這個主計總處未來要繼續的來支持因為這個對我們來說是一個非常非常"},{"start":354.268,"end":354.709,"text":"謝謝大家共同努力"}]}},{"id":"150394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bcf076e41b5155d028506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:39:33 - 12:47:03","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":450,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:47:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:39:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1152,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時39分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部黃次長、內政部警政署李副署長以及數發部的李次長。"],["主席：請黃次長、李副署長、李次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩位次長好、副署長好。今天我們關心詐騙猖獗、資訊犯罪的規模升級，檢調如何強化組織、延攬防制人才。","請看一下，請教三位，這是一個關於亞洲詐騙報告，2023年的，每個月至少遇到一次詐騙的占比，臺灣在亞洲排名第四，我先請教黃次長，你覺得跟你的生活經驗是不是類似？"],["黃次長謀信：詐騙案的確是有很多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：李次長呢？你周遭的人士是不是也這樣？"],["李次長懷仁：這個GASA的報告跟我們接近。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很接近，請問副署長，您認為在臺灣的頻率是不是很高，有可能每個人都遇到詐騙？"],["李副署長西河：頻率很高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是很高嘛。我們看一下，詐騙集團持續演進，但政府機關不動如山，刑事警察局在2006年就成立了一個科技犯罪防制中心。從2004年165科技犯罪防制中心成立，到LINE的詐騙，刑法改為一罪一罰，詐騙集團組織犯罪加重，2022年打詐國家隊成立了。請問法務部黃次長，您覺得目前我們的檢警調有沒有對應條件組織？除了刑事警察局之外？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上相關的組織，我們在臺高檢署有成立一個打詐中心，垂直督導各地檢署，包括地檢署還有調查局也成立各個中心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最近不是完成的組改嗎？行政院的組改，法務部有沒有參與這次行政院的組改？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下法務部組織法，法務部有哪些三級機關？"],["黃次長謀信：現在有廉政署、矯正署、行政執行署、調查局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，另外還有最高檢察署和高等檢察署。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外按照目前的組改三級機關都稱之為署，為什麼調查局獨獨跟另外三個署不一樣，行政執行署、廉政署、矯正署，它叫做局，是不是怕改了不叫局，人家就以為它不是聯邦調查局？為什麼上次的組改、這次的組改調查局的機關名稱沒有隨著調整？您認為是什麼原因？"],["黃次長謀信：這有它的歷史因素"],["鍾委員佳濱：有它的歷史因素。","另外，法務部調查局的職掌是不是包括所謂的電腦犯罪防制？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部調查局組織法是不是設有一個資通安全處？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是不是由資通安全處負責第八款的電腦犯罪防制等等？"],["黃次長謀信：應該是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：既然警政署下有個刑事警察局，那你覺得未來法務部調查局假設正名為法務部調查署，有沒有可能比照警政署下的刑事警察局，將資通安全處擴大提升為資訊犯罪防制局，次長覺得如何？"],["黃次長謀信：委員的建議當然很好，但這涉及整個國家的組織再造。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有涉及國家組織再造，只涉及到法務部，因為上次組改你們聞風不動，所以我要告訴你。","我們再往下看，剛剛那個問題我幫你解答一下。在組改的東西根據中央行政機關基準法第二條規定，在組改過程當中，國防組織、駐外機關、警察機關、檢察機關以及調查機關等等，它的組織法律另有規定者，從其規定。所以這是為什麼法務部調查局在這次組改中並沒有更名為調查署。根據中央基準法第六條，一般三級機關就是署和局，你們要用局也是可以，但你們會不會考慮要調整一下？就是說雖然法律上准予你們從其規定，我覺得法務部是不是考慮，為了強化我們對於詐騙猖獗、資訊犯罪規模升級，法務部強化調查局既有的功能，將其資通安全處提升為類似刑事警察局的做法。","我請教李副署長，刑事警察局是不是在警政署裡面算是四級機關？"],["李副署長西河：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有發揮強化警察機關犯罪偵防的能量？"],["李副署長西河：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然有，很好，聽到沒有？次長不考慮一下嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我們回去研議一下，但我覺得打詐跟組織名字是局或署沒有必然的關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，完全正確。","請教李次長，你們數發部資通安全署的第二條規定，可以聘用資通安全科技專業人才，不受公務人員任用的資格規定，你們可以用聘用人員聘用條例，而且還規定員額不超過百分之幾。你覺得這個規定對於數發部在你們強化資通安全有沒有幫助？"],["李次長懷仁：有，非常有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會反對其他部會參考辦理嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：其實這個規定是我們依照國科會來仿效的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你是仿效國科會的，黃次長，你剛剛說不是成立一個新的組織，還有相關的人才對不對？如果要你們做好預防資訊犯罪、打擊詐騙，請你們聘用資通偵防科技人才，你覺得對於法務部、對於調查局進行資訊犯罪的偵防，有沒有幫助？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，畢竟調查局或檢察署是偵查犯罪的機關，如果聘用臨時人力，對法律職掌的部分有些時候會有些障礙，因為涉及偵查不公開。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，聘用人員在行政機關，尤其他是不是具有司法警察身分，要你們去研議，所以我今天提出來就是要你們去研議，你們要有強化資通偵防科技的人才，我已經告訴你了，你可以參考數發部資安署組織法的方式，他們也是參考國科會的，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在希望你比照資通安全署。因應網路詐騙的興起，法務部應該研議將調查局正名，設立資訊犯罪防制局或叫中心，看你們怎麼稱呼，並參考數發部資通署組織法，讓人才進用有雙軌制度，請問您願意帶回去研議，在一個月內或三個月內給我一個報告嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒問題，三個月內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位次長，謝謝副署長，也謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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那我們來看一下詐騙集團它持續演進啊但是我們政府機關不動如山啦你看我們刑事警察局2006年的時候呢就成立了個科技犯罪防治中心對不對我們看一下嘛那從這樣的一個從2004、165科技犯罪防治中心成立到了賴著詐騙的刑法改一罪一罰然後呢這個詐騙集團組織犯罪我們加重"},{"start":90.391,"end":102.788,"text":"然後呢2022打詐國家隊成立了但是請問我們法務部的黃市長您覺得目前我們檢警掉有沒有對應條件的組織除了我們刑事警察局之外"},{"start":103.851,"end":106.553,"text":"法務部的組織法務部的組織法務部的組織法務部的組織法務部的組織法務部的組織法務部的組織"},{"start":133.952,"end":157.631,"text":"三級機關現在就是聯政署、剿政署、還有行政執行署、調查局對,那另外還有最高檢察署跟高等檢察署按照我們目前的主改啊,三級機關都稱之為署啊那為什麼調查局獨獨跟另外三個署不一樣?行政執行署、檢政署、剿政署,它主要叫局是不是它改了不叫局,人家就以為它不是聯邦調查局啊?"},{"start":158.394,"end":187.325,"text":"為什麼上次的主改,這次的主改聯邦調查局的機關名稱沒有隨意的調整,你認為什麼原因?根本沒有報告,這有它歷史因素,我沒有報告。有它歷史因素,來我們來看一下。那另外,法務部調查局的執掌是不是包括了這些,包括了所謂的電腦犯罪防治這些?對。好,那麼法務部的調查局的組織法,它是不是設有一個知通安全處?對。那目前是不是有知通安全處在負責它所說的第八款的電腦犯罪防治等等?"},{"start":189.528,"end":212.42,"text":"應該是那既然警政署下一個刑事警察局那你覺得未來如果法務部調查局假設一般的正名為法務部調查署那有沒有可能我們比照警政署下一個刑事警察局我們來把這個資通安全處擴大提升為一個資訊犯罪防治局"},{"start":213.945,"end":225.916,"text":"市長你看看,您覺得呢?跟委員報告,委員的建議當然很好,但這涉及到整個國家的組織的再造沒有國家的組織再造,只涉及到法務部,因為你們上次主改呢,你們聞風不動"},{"start":228.275,"end":255.563,"text":"所以我要告訴你來我們往下看剛剛那個問題我幫你解答一下啦因為在主改的東西根據我們中央行政機關基準法第二條他有說他說在主改過程當中呢國防組織、駐外機關、警察機關、檢察機關以及調查機關等等他的組織法律另有規定外重啟規定所以這是為什麼法務部調查局在這次的主改當中並沒有更名為調查署啦"},{"start":256.804,"end":267.118,"text":"那如果根據中央行政機關基準法第6條一般嘛,三級機關就是用數跟局嘛你們要用局也是可以啦但是你們會不會考慮要來調整一下"},{"start":268.575,"end":287.568,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":287.848,"end":308.695,"text":"知通安全處提升為一個類似刑事警察局這樣的做法我請教副局長你們本身刑事警察局是不是在警政署裡面你們算是市級機關嗎?是是你們有沒有發揮到強化我們警察機關犯罪偵防的能量?當然有當然有很好 聽到沒有?"},{"start":309.375,"end":329.23,"text":"市長,可以考慮一下嗎?沒有錯!完全正確!來,下一個來,我請教李市長齁。你們速發部組織,你們有一個資通安全署的第二條,他說你們可以聘用資通安全科技的專業人才,不受到我們"},{"start":330.785,"end":352.481,"text":"所謂的公務人員的任用的資格規定你們可以用聘用人員、聘用條例而且還規定你員額不超過6百你覺得這個規定對於速發部在你們強化自動安全有沒有幫助?延展能不能幫助?有,非常有幫助有幫助那你會反對其他部會參考辦理嗎?報告委員其實這個規定是我們依照國科會來仿效的所以你不仿效國科會的好來,黃市長"},{"start":355.514,"end":375.473,"text":"欸?你剛剛說了不是成立一個新的組織還有相當的人才對不對那如果說要你們來做好預防資訊犯罪打擊詐騙那你會請你們來聘用資通增防科技人才你覺得對於法務部對於調查局來進行這樣的一個"},{"start":377.013,"end":404.601,"text":"資訊犯罪增防有沒有幫助?跟我們報告因為畢竟調查局或檢察署他是偵查犯罪的機關所以他用聘用臨時人力他其實對法律執掌的部分其實有些時候會有些障礙因為盛警長真的不公開聘用人員在行政機關尤其他是不是具有司法警察身份要你們去研議所以今天提出來就是要你們去研議你們要強化你們資通增防科技的人才我已經告訴你了你可以參考書發部"},{"start":405.581,"end":429.621,"text":"致安署的組織法的方式他們也是參考國科會的對不對?好那我現在希望你比照致通安全署最後一輪結論因應網路科技詐騙的興起那麼法務部應該嚴義將調查局證明那為了設立資訊犯罪防治局或叫中心看你們怎麼稱呼並參考速發部致通署的組織法讓人才金融有雙軌制度"},{"start":430.889,"end":437.655,"text":"請問您願意在待會願意比如說在一個月或三個月內給我一個報告嗎?好,沒問題。好,謝謝兩位次長,謝謝副局長,也謝謝主席,謝謝。好,謝謝。先為質詢請鄭天才政委員。"}]}},{"id":"150393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bc06c28e5ec5c979ae5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6d4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:38:57 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一件好事喔但是喔我看後面的這個報告的內容喔我就有點疑慮了為什麼呢因為你寫了一大堆比如說我們有平台啦安全管理資訊啦鼓勵輔導教育訓練啦擴大安全行銷啦這些東西"},{"start":97.173,"end":109.533,"text":"可是我想大家想要看到的是萬一真的發現不幸的事件的時候那個處罰的機制到底是什麼我覺得嚇阻恐怕比這些輔導更有效我不是講輔導不好可是嚇阻有其必要所以我就以這個"},{"start":111.345,"end":132.08,"text":"以這個狀況來講來跟大家請問一下第一個落實公共安全我覺得至少我們可以先從政府機關開始我們有很多的公共工程公共工程的安全性要優先確保對不對你政府要帶頭做示範那我現在請問你除了提高檢查裁罰跟停工措施之外這個萬一真的有廠商發生了公安事件直接踩過你這一條紅線請問還有沒有什麼處罰"},{"start":135.663,"end":160.617,"text":"其實委員齁我們因為這個處罰一直都是有的啦齁阿法規都是對嘛你就是罰款嘛跟停工嘛對不對其實委員停工對他們其實是最他們最在意的他們最在意那個沒錯嘛那個是當下的第一時間的處分嘛當下的第一時間停工然後他一定要改善完善現改之後處理完你才能允許復工那處罰其實處罰齁當然我們依照規定來處罰"},{"start":162.339,"end":184.475,"text":"我現在要問的是嚇阻啦就是你要有強而有力的措施去嚇阻嘛比如說公共工程我就問了嘛因為時間有限啦不好意思喔比如說發生公安事件這個廠商會不會被列入公共工程委員會不會被列入黑名單有沒有揭露的機制剛剛洪本凱文我覺得他問得非常好都沒有我覺得揭露的東西說得不夠清楚的啊有沒有限制投標的規模在評選的時候會不會扣分你們就簡單回答一下"},{"start":186.096,"end":210.609,"text":"具體的做法是什麼有沒有你會有提供一份資料好不好我是覺得這個你都要寫進報告裡啊大家才會清楚嘛對不對你除了有輔導之外你有嚇阻嘛對不對你不要覺得大家覺得好像只有一半這是不對的那第二個我要針對民間工程公共工程如果有做那民間工程你有什麼手段可以嚇阻這樣子的廠商這種每次都五大三出都忽略這種職場安全的你有什麼嚇阻的手段除了你既有的罰款跟停工之外"},{"start":212.648,"end":233.035,"text":"其實我們民間工程我們主要是跟那個地方的政府管單位跟營建署這邊對於它相關的可能營建的一些申請或什麼都會在日後都會被列為本人建議如果你公共工程有相關的一些手段的話你民間工程也要有相對的手段吧比如本期建議嘛比如說你就"},{"start":233.755,"end":260.874,"text":"比如說透過法規或怎麼樣讓銀行融資利率上升嘛讓他募資有困難類似說你要用一些這樣的方式對民間工程你要有嚇阻力啊不要說事情發生之後我才停工我才罰款那事實上很多時候我也直白跟部長講你那罰款罰下去對很多大財團大企業來講他當作繳保護費啊繳完了就算了嘛所以除了罰款跟停工之外你還有其他手段這是本節目做的第一個題目做的第一個建議第二個我問一下最近喔"},{"start":261.374,"end":270.539,"text":"大家有討論這個馬上我們天氣越變越熱昨天就已經突破30度了這之前勞動部曾經有研議過我們要有高溫價的配套措施請問有沒有下文"},{"start":271.021,"end":290.286,"text":"我們沒有報告人那個高溫那不是假我們是個措施就是如何去在避免在高溫的這個環境下去工作那會採取一些防避的措施啊好我現在提醒你因為顯然今年這幾年其實都這樣在這個極端氣候的侵擾之下這種"},{"start":292.066,"end":316.177,"text":"夏天的時候37、8度可能會變成常態那你遲早要面對這件事情不管這個你該怎麼處理後續有沒有應對措施你剛講說有很多的輔導跟應對措施如果這些一樣這些廠商如果沒有在理這些應對措施你的裁罰機制是什麼我們就有相關的規範就是可以處罰他哪一些相關規範在我們各位報告我們這個設置規則針對在"},{"start":320.208,"end":328.448,"text":"一定溫度以上的那個狀況下來從事工作他若沒有做預防措施我們食安法規跟法規是可以做處置的但是剛才委員講到一個重點是在"},{"start":329.127,"end":354.051,"text":"在氣候變遷狀況下面夏日的溫度飆高我們現在社會說那段時間要暫時停止工作要做工作時間的一些管理不要讓勞工暴露在這樣子的風險下面所以應該是從管理上面來做著手好因為時間有限一樣你會有提供資料最後一個這個30秒之內我把這題目收完你剛剛講說營造業防墜落很重要我告訴你這不只人墜落很重要東西墜落也很重要"},{"start":354.871,"end":369.407,"text":"這個前一陣子發生的那個冷氣掉下來砸死人的事件這件事情我認為也是廣義的職場安全維護很重要的一個題目那過去的時候因為這很複雜你的大樓裝冷氣公寓大廈主管機關國土署對不對但是這個安全又是你負責"},{"start":369.827,"end":392.769,"text":"你這跨部溝通的協調有沒有一個具體的進度因為現在的狀況新北跟桃園因為出過事所以大家就有一些更好細緻的SOP可是這個細緻的SOP缺乏中央的法源依據以至於你沒有辦法你沒有法則沒有執行力最後就淪於空談沒有強制力請問勞動部現在如果你講說這個是內政部要修法你有沒有具體的修法建議去避免這樣的東西去完善這部分的職場安全"},{"start":393.249,"end":416.451,"text":"各位報告,冷氣應該先說那個結構體的一個附加裝置所以這個部分確實營建署跟我們有一些合作的對阿,這是跨部會的修法那我們的部分是工作者在工作的時候他如果確保他安全防護能夠達到讓勞工不會因為這樣在裝冷的時候堆塑下來或是東西掉下來這部分我們也會把我們的SOP跟那個國土署做進一步的合作那國會署已經有一個基本規範出來了"},{"start":417.352,"end":426.792,"text":"因為去年7月發生這件事後面好像就沒有然後了好不好所以我們希望重新這個事情要有個具體的期程表可以嗎好不好這一樣會後給大家做參考可以嗎好不好意思主席謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbfacd9e6ec65c28e8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a67e16859af7a544885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:28:20 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12:39:25","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":665,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:39:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:28:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時28分）謝謝主席。有請金管會黃天牧主委以及法務部的黃謀信次長。"],["主席：請黃主委及黃次長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。我想imB吸金詐騙的案子兩位應該都很熟悉，現在進行的階段是臺北市地方法院第一審，準備聽被害人的心聲，目前統計的人數不曉得要租哪裡的大禮堂才有辦法進行。這個案子的發生，我從還不在立法院就開始追蹤到現在，我一直在思考的是未來我們要怎麼做才能夠再預防，我今天主要的目的是先讓兩位知道，我不是在追究什麼責任，但每一步到底怎麼發生走到今天，我們如果沒有辦法誠實的面對，就不可能有智慧的去思考未來，我把我的基本立場先說明。","我要先請教主委，剛開始有一位臺大財經妹的被害人出來，有委員質詢你，你說有網友在質疑她是不是臺大財經系的，這樣不好吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我事後看了對話，我會改進，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你會改進，那個臺大財經妹我接觸過好幾次，今天我給你公開的場合，她已經把畢業證書秀出來了，你要不要跟她致意一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可以，如果有需要的話。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在公開跟她致意，她現在在看。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我是看PTT上面的話去做的回應，如果有不當的地方我跟她致歉，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好。2016年那時包括我和羅明才委員一起在財政委員會，我們一開始的時候一直在追，因為那時P2P的事情已經開始了，那個時候您是擔任副主委嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我問了您，也問了詹庭禎局長，你們到底什麼時候規範要出來？那時候大家都在等，有說要立專法，也有說要修法的，那時的主委王儷玲說金管會的立場是開放，但必須要有專法來管。後來到了另一位主委丁克華時，他的看法也是一樣，甚至那時候林全在施政方針裡面也說必需要管理，到底在什麼時間點整個政策完全轉向？然後把P2P認為說這件事情不需要由金管會管理，把它看成一般民間私人的借貸就好。發生這件事情後，我一直回想整件事情，我回頭看，我記得我們那時財委會的討論是要推專法，要不然要修法，但到一個特定時間點的時候，政策突然轉向了，跟當初林全乃至於之前不管是您當副主委還是王儷玲當主委還是丁克華當主委，政策立場都不一樣了。到底是什麼時間點、基於什麼樣的因素認為P2P不需要透過金管會或者透過專法或者修法來管理？請教一下黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實在政黨輪替之前，銀行局的確有討論到專法，但在2016政黨輪替後，後來的主委也討論過幾個方案，後來決定沒有採專法的方式。"],["黃委員國昌：那很奇怪，如果是這樣的話，為什麼林全在他的施政方針報告中這樣寫呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：他沒有講，我不太瞭解，他沒有講要專法，那時候就是政黨輪替後的主委決定不要用專法的方式，我們會內有討論。"],["黃委員國昌：那時候您有參與討論嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不記得了，應該是有，我不曉得在什麼場合有討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，在政策上我還是很誠懇的建議金管會對這件事情真的要好好的重新思考，我為什麼會這樣說呢？我進一步請主委看，這是我在追蹤整個imB案從2016年到2023年臺北地檢署起訴的整個大事紀，我們在2016年的時候，那個時候法務部調查局有立案，2017年金管會函覆法務部調查局桃園市調處，去年imB的案子起來以後，我知道金管會大概發了兩次到三次的澄清說：我們從來沒有說它沒有違反銀行法，我們說的是要檢調機關自己去認定。主委，我有沒有理解錯誤？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，其實您有垂詢過我們，因為它是刑事的認定，不是金管會能夠處理的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這就是我今天同時請兩位上來，我要跟你們深入探討的。當桃園市調處接到檢舉的時候，開始做筆錄的時候，那時不法吸金的金額是27億元，等到去年它整個沒有辦法支撐、崩盤的時候已經到90億元，我這段時間一直在思考的事情是我們在管制上如何提早發現、提早預防。從被害人的角度來講，我必須要說實在的，現在是哭訴無門，錢要拿回來的機率微乎其微，大概是拿一張債權憑證回家貼在牆壁上看著債權憑證流眼淚。第一個，如果今天金管會認為這個地方不要去管制，第二個，就銀行法有沒有不法吸金，永遠要到檢調後階段再來處理的話，等於未來這樣的風險會繼續存在，主委聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們中間有協助P2P業者，由聯徵成立第二個徵信中心，讓他們在過程中能夠得到徵信的資訊，我們有做這些事情。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看。主委說你們從來沒有表示imB沒有違反銀行法，下一張請您仔細看，這是法務部調查局桃園市調處當初發給桃園地檢署的函，這個函是被害人給我的，被害人看了以後他們說什麼？法務部桃園市調處說的是經函詢金管會，認為沒有辦法認定違反銀行法第二十九條之一，也就是金管會有金管會的觀點，但我今天要跟主委報告的是，當初這個案子為什麼桃園市調處把腳步停下來？他們真的是看到金管會的函才停下來，我本來以為他們會不會是為了卸責在媒體上這樣放話，但當我看到桃園市調處給桃園地檢署檢察官這個函時，我開始相信，而且這是在案發以前，而不是等到2023年整個事情爆發以後大家開始推卸責任，這是在2022年時它函覆桃園地檢署檢察官就這樣講，他們真的是因為金管會做了這樣的回函，所以他們把整個偵辦的腳步停下來。我最後只講一件事，因為主席站起來了，未來類似這樣的事情，目前還有沒有檢察官派駐在金管會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一直都有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：一直都有。"],["黃委員國昌：未來是不是金管會可以好好的討論一下，在處理類似案件時，主管機關要表達看法以前，是不是可以跟金管會裡駐會的檢察官共同研議怎麼樣的回函、怎麼樣的回復、怎麼樣的表達不會讓第一線的檢警產生這樣的誤會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，通常要不要移送，我們會跟駐會檢討論，我可不可以講幾句話？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果跟您講的不一致請您包涵。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：您這邊引述四個字「尚難認定」，我自己好像也看過那個函，我想確定一下是不是我們的函就是這個字，還是他引述的時候的語氣跟我們發函的語氣是不一樣的，是不是可以跟您再確認一下？"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟主委講，我今天在這裡質詢，我真的不是來算帳，也不是來跟您討論語氣的問題，您看我把大事紀列出來，我關心的只有一件事情，未來如果有類似的事情，做為掌握權力的人，不管是金管會或檢調，我們如何能做到比較早期的介入、比較早期的預防，不要讓被害人越來越多，這是我今天站在這裡質詢這個題目最主要的目的，所以我最後才提一個建議，未來金管會遇到類似的事情時，是不是可以跟派駐在金管會的檢察官先討論一下、瞭解一下到底是什麼狀況？而不是一個函回復之後，反而讓檢調整個偵辦的動作全部停下來。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員的關心我們可以在程序上斟酌看是不是加一個這個流程。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但不見得每件事情都一定要洽駐會檢，還是要看案情的輕重。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實講，今天如果不是出了這麼大的事情，我們真的沒有辦法冷靜的來看現在整個規範體系到底出了什麼狀況，因為我們都不希望相同的事情再發生。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請鍾佳濱委員。因為後面還有十幾位委員，請大家掌握時間，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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幾個方案後來決定沒有採專法的方式那很奇怪那如果是這樣子的話林全為什麼在他施政方針報告這樣寫呢他沒有講我不瞭解因為他沒有講要專法那個時候就是在"},{"start":256.109,"end":261.192,"text":"政黨輪替之後的主委他決定他不要用這案法的方式我們會內他們有討論對路事委員有參與討論嗎?"},{"start":266.28,"end":292.313,"text":"我不記得應該是有我不曉得在什麼場合有討論我這樣說好了就是說在政策上我還是很誠懇的建議金管會這件事情真的要好好的重新思考我為什麼會這樣子說呢我進一步帶主委看這個是我在追蹤整個IMB案從2016年我一路向到2023年臺北地檢署起訴的整個大事記"},{"start":294.278,"end":321.295,"text":"我們在2016年的時候那個時候法務部的調查局有立案2017年的時候金管會含附法務部調查局桃園市調處去年IMB的案子起來以後我知道金管會大概發了兩次到三次的澄清說我們從來沒有說他沒有違反銀行法我們說的是要檢調機關自己去認定主委我有沒有理解錯誤"},{"start":322.276,"end":350.083,"text":"沒有其實包括你有詢詢過我們因為他是形式的認定不是監管會能夠處理的這個就是我今天同時請兩位上來我要跟你們深入探討的因為當桃園市調處接到檢舉的時候開始做筆錄的時候請兩位看一下那個時候不法吸金的金額是257億喔等到去年他整個沒有辦法支撐崩盤的時候已經到90億喔"},{"start":351.721,"end":370.468,"text":"我這段時間一直在思考的事情是我們在管制上如何提早發現提早預防因為從被害人的角度上面來講我必須要說實在的現在是枯樹無門錢要拿回來的機率為乎其為大概拿一張債權憑證回家貼在牆壁上看著債權憑證流眼淚"},{"start":376.104,"end":397.683,"text":"那如果說我們今天第一個金管會認為這個地方不要去管制那第二個就銀行法有沒有不法吸金永遠要到減掉後階段再來處理的話那等於是什麼?等於是未來這樣子的風險會繼續存在喔主委您聽得懂我的意思嗎?"},{"start":399.64,"end":424.272,"text":"我們中間有協助P2P業者由廉珍成立第二個徵信中心要他在過程中能夠有得到徵信的資訊好,我們等一下繼續往下看齁除了你們說你們從來沒有表示R&B沒有違反銀行法嘛下一張請您仔細看這個是法務部調查局桃園市調處當初發給"},{"start":427.9,"end":451.875,"text":"臺灣地檢署的函這個函是被害人給我的被害人他們看了以後他們說什麼法務部、桃園市調處說的是金函詢金管會認為沒有辦法認定違反銀行法29條之一也就是"},{"start":453.376,"end":480.962,"text":"金管會有金管會的觀點但我今天要跟主委報告的是當初這個案子為什麼桃園市調處把腳步停下來他們真的是看到金管會的函他們真的是看到金管會的函才停下來我本來以為說他們會不會是為了卸責在媒體上面這樣放話但是當我看到桃園市調處給桃園地檢署的檢察官這個函的時候我開始相信了"},{"start":482.128,"end":508.842,"text":"而且這個是在案發以前喔這個不是等到2023年整個事情爆發了以後大家開始推卸責任這是在2022年的時候他含附桃園地檢署的檢察官就這樣講喔他們真的是因為金管會做了這樣子的回函所以怎麼樣所以他們把整個偵辦的角度給停下來了我現在齁最後只講一件事以後主席站起來了齁未來"},{"start":510.404,"end":514.936,"text":"類似這樣的事情目前還有沒有檢察官派駐在金管會?"},{"start":516.653,"end":540.96,"text":"一直都有有嘛一直都有那未來是不是金管會可以好好討論一下我們在處理類似的案件的時候主管機關要表達看法以前是不是可以跟金管會裡面駐會的檢察官共同來演繹怎麼樣的回函怎麼樣的回覆怎麼樣的表達不會讓第一線的檢警產生這樣的誤會"},{"start":544.881,"end":563.676,"text":"主席,我們通常是如果要移送不移送,我們會跟朱惠簡去討論。那我可不可以講幾句話?可以,可以。對您講的如果不一致,請您包涵。是。您這邊引述那四個字,少男認定。我自己好像也看過那個涵。我想確定一下是不是我們涵就是這個字,還是他引述的時候。不是。"},{"start":564.517,"end":589.39,"text":"他好像引述的時候的語氣上跟我們發函的語氣是不一樣的我可不可以跟您再確認一下我老實跟主委講今天我在這邊質詢我真的不是來算帳我也不是來跟你討論語氣的問題你看我把那個大事記列出來我關心的只有一件事情未來如果有類似的事情我們作為掌握權力的人不管是金管會"},{"start":590.47,"end":607.802,"text":"還是檢調我們如何能做到比較早期的介入比較早期的預防讓被害人越來越多這個是我今天站在這邊質詢這個題目最主要的目的所以我最後才提一個建議是說未來金管會"},{"start":609.318,"end":624.233,"text":"遇到類似的事情的時候是不是可以跟派駐在金管會的檢察官先討論一下瞭解一下到底是什麼狀況而不是一個喊回去了以後反而讓檢調整個偵辦的動作全部都停下來"},{"start":625.424,"end":651.315,"text":"委員您的關心我們可以在程序上在斟酌看是不是加一個這個流程但是不見得每件事情都一定要洽駐會檢因為還是有看他的案情的輕重了我老實講啦今天如果不是出了這麼大的事情我們真的沒有辦法冷靜的來看我們現在整個規範體系到底出了什麼狀況因為我們都不希望相同的事情再發生嘛我謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":659.741,"end":664.738,"text":"下一位質詢請鍾嘉斌委員因為後面還有十幾個委員請大家掌握時間"}]}},{"id":"150391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbdff8759f49ff491cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a697110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:28:39 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12:37:44","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":545,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:37:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:28:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時28分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["王部長國材：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你好。"],["王部長國材：你好。"],["張委員啓楷：現在物價隨時可能飆漲，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在每個人都在壓制物價，結果交通部現在變成漲價的火車頭嗎？你應該是踩煞車的人，怎麼變成火車頭？你現在臺鐵也要漲，高鐵也要漲，公路客運也要漲，你一漲不是整個物價就往上漲嗎？而且我發現一個問題非常嚴重，你不只漲，電價上漲幅度才11%，對不對？我看你的幅度都比人家高，高鐵可能要漲15%，公路客運中長程跟短程三排椅漲23%，時間不對，漲太多了吧？"],["王部長國材：我跟張委員報告，現在唯一我們覺得應該趕快處理的是國道客運的部分，因為它正面臨生存的問題，但是我們現在是說短程的部分就用TPASS來cover，差額就由我們來補貼。然後中途跟長途的部分我們現在有考慮用我們的補貼方案，部分補貼。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很好，很好，你有想到。我是覺得，第一個，時間不對，幅度不要那麼大，你如果有更好的方案，你就讓政府現在補助，漲價先停下來，現在嚴重的是什麼？電價往上漲，對不對？如果臺鐵、高鐵、客運直接漲上去，等於火上加油嘛。所以第一個是時間點不對。我先強調，是時間點不對，我不是反對你漲價，該有的成本，尤其是臺鐵，我覺得臺鐵已經虧損那麼久了，28年沒調漲，我贊成要調，可是絕對不要在這個時候，好不好？第一個……"],["王部長國材：那個……"],["張委員啓楷：不，你先聽我說，第一個，時間要往後押，好不好？那你剛剛提到客運的部分，如果政府可以透過補助，先不要漲啊，好不好？我們先不要漲，臺鐵、高鐵跟客運短時間都不要漲，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：雙鐵的票價討論應該會在下半年，雙鐵都會在下半年。"],["張委員啓楷：高鐵？"],["王部長國材：高鐵和臺鐵都是下半年以後的事情了，我說討論會在下半年以後。"],["張委員啓楷：是，今天能不能非常明確地跟全國民眾保證，臺鐵在上半年絕對不會漲，高鐵在上半年也絕對不會漲？"],["王部長國材：都不會。是。"],["張委員啓楷：都不會？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個就是高鐵，這個幅度有點大，你可能要注意一下，你是最大的股東嘛，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：交通部的股份高達六成，我算了一下，現在從臺北坐到高雄的票價是1,490元，現在傳出要漲15%，1,490元差不多是我們一般民眾一天的薪水了，對不對？","他如果回家看爸爸媽媽，去看家人，來回就兩天的薪水。"],["王部長國材：基本費率調整，票價也不見得調整，過去也有基本費率有提升，我們不讓票價漲。這個問題我們會全盤來考量，相關討論都會在下半年才會開始討論。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，現在很明確地跟我們的民眾講，上半年臺鐵、高鐵是不會漲的。"],["王部長國材：下半年才會討論。"],["張委員啓楷：討論也是下半年，更進一步，幅度不要太大。第二個，如果是客運的話，能不能也不要漲？透過你的補助嘛。這段時間老實說你可以補助，叫他們慢點漲，可不可以？"],["王部長國材：公路客運就用這種方式，公路客運可以用剛剛說的短途用TPASS來cover，中長途部分補貼，大概這樣處理。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦。中長程和短程那種有三排椅子的要漲23%，這個部分的漲價要停下來嗎？"],["王部長國材：我再說一次，短途就是用TPASS來cover，比如：基隆、桃園這部分，基本上我們都用TPASS來處理掉，所以民眾沒有感覺。中長途的部分，我們部分補貼，讓票價不要提太高，因為國道客運和公路客運確實是面臨到經營上的困境，所以我們用部分補貼的方式來處理，但民眾就是不會感覺……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在看了就是嚇一跳，本來是要調多少？現在公會給你的案子是要調23%嘛？你明確跟我們講，經過交通部補助以後，能夠降到多少？或者不要漲。"],["王部長國材：這個我們再討論，不要讓它漲那麼高是確定的。"],["張委員啓楷：10%以下？"],["王部長國材：這個應該是……"],["張委員啓楷：23%太高了，10%以下？"],["王部長國材：這個等公路局和費率委員會去討論。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，沒有，你給我一個承諾，你不要漲太高。"],["王部長國材：就是民眾負擔不會漲很多。"],["張委員啓楷：好。","另外，我們來看一個案子，好不好？你現在變成情報頭子了，對不對？定位上有沒有錯誤？"],["王部長國材：我剛才已經說過了，不過這個標題實在太可怕了。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼會可怕？"],["王部長國材：我不是說國人別去香港……"],["張委員啓楷：你的專業是交通，大家認為你可能留下來繼續幫我們的交通盡心盡力，結果你現在說香港的基本法，你叫國人不要去香港，你是當情報頭子是不是？部長，還是你準備轉行去當國安局長嗎？"],["王部長國材：張委員，我再講一次，我當天是因為他們問我如果基本法第二十三條通過，我的態度如何我是說如果有可能違反基本法規定的行為，我是勸他們不要去。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你這樣講就是違心之論，你要保持初心，叫人家自己去判斷，這裡面最嚴重的問題什麼？是定位錯誤，交通部長是促進觀光的，你應該希望我們的人都出去觀光，人家都進來，對不對？結果不是，你現在說這句話的意思是香港不要去，你不覺得你的定位完全錯誤嗎？"],["王部長國材：我是說有可能觸法的不要去，我再說一遍。"],["張委員啓楷：普通人聽到你這樣說，心想：交通部長這麼專業還這麼說，大家會不會嚇到？"],["王部長國材：不是。我如果不跟他們說，他們去香港被人抓去關了，要怎麼辦？我一定要講。"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼知道會被抓去關？這個是國安局的事啊。部長，這涉及你的定位，最重要的是，你是交通部部長，交通部部長要促進觀光嘛，對不對？"],["王部長國材：但是要在安全的狀況下促進觀光。"],["張委員啓楷：以你的定位，你現在變成去管國安的事情。"],["王部長國材：安全，要安全。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你今年的目標定的是1,200萬人，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["張委員啓楷：2023年港澳來臺的旅客是最大宗的，光是香港來臺灣的，在2023年就有110萬人次，你現在這麼說，香港人也說你們看不起我們香港，到時候香港人不來，110萬不就沒了？你原來定的1,200萬人這個目標不是就沒有了嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，我再講一次……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你變成情報頭子的思考，害得你身為交通部長招徠觀光客的目標達不到了，是不是這樣？"],["王部長國材：我身為觀光主管的部長，我必須說有風險的人不要去，再講一下，沒有風險的人歡迎去，這樣好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼知道人家去那裡有什麼風險？"],["王部長國材：他自己判斷，比方他以前有沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有風險看兩個地方，第一個，香港到底有沒有風險，可能是國安局局長可以判斷，由交通部部長來判斷，不太合理。","第二個，人家自己心中有一把尺，你是交通的專業，不要去管政治的事情，好不好？不要意識形態，不要意識形態。"],["王部長國材：委員，我完全沒有這個意思，我是好意，那一天有記者在問，確實是有這樣的風險，比如，在境外講過什麼，也會有問題，所以我聽起來覺得如果真的有講過什麼，因為我們臺灣是很自由的國家，可能不小心講到他們的壞話，如果有這樣的行為，我勸他不要去。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你人緣很好，我知道，所以記者去問你，問題是，你現在定位你要想一想，你不是情報頭子，你是要促進觀光，你現在一講，到目前為止，觀光業就跳腳了，觀光業覺得自己很倒楣，之前要組團去大陸，你一句話，人家也不能去了，這是二度傷害，剝了兩層皮。","最後30秒了，你跟我們全國的民眾講一下，我們還是可以去香港，也歡迎香港的人來。"],["王部長國材：我再講一次，有沒有風險，大家自己判斷，因為我不知道你有沒有風險，如果沒有風險，我歡迎港澳跟臺灣自由往來，觀光交流。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有風險，讓情報單位、讓國安局去判斷。"],["王部長國材：如果有風險，我是覺得真的要注意一下。"],["張委員啓楷：你是促進觀光旅遊的交通部長，拜託你，你不要幫人家定位。"],["王部長國材：我沒有那個意思啦。我再講一次，真的。"],["主席：俄羅斯也可以去啊。"],["張委員啓楷：俄羅斯也可以去，雖然在打仗，還是可以去。"],["王部長國材：我真的是善意的提醒，不是說那個……"],["張委員啓楷：主席提供一個非常好的建議，讓自己去判斷。","第二個是重點，你的定位是促進觀光，老實說，觀光業已經很倒楣了，組團的事情都還沒解決……"],["王部長國材：我要澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在已經剝了第二層皮了，多幫幫我們觀光業的業者，讓民眾也可以寬心，快快樂樂地去香港。"],["王部長國材：是。謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好啦，部長，你跑一趟北京嘛。","超過十二點半了，快到一點了，後面的便當委員會開始發便當，官員、委員都發，好不好？因為我們中午不休息，為了讓大家下午的時間能夠充分利用。有沒有聽到？現在開始發便當，OK。好，也可以吃，沒關係，現在疫後沒有這個問題了。","下一位請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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人家心中有一把尺啊。 你是交通的專家不要去管政治的事情好不好。 不要意識形態。 不要意識形態"},{"start":441.909,"end":465.756,"text":" 那個我完全沒有這意思我是好意跟他因為如果因為那天自己有在問是有這樣的風險嘛比如說在境外講過他的什麼問題也會有什麼問題所以我聽起來欸如果你真的有因為我們台灣是很自由的國家你知道嗎可能你就沒天理的講到他那個什麼判決什麼如果有這樣的行為啦我是勸他不要去法定你人眼前好我知道阿所以記者去問你嘛"},{"start":466.656,"end":487.435,"text":"問題你現在定位你不是情報投擲啊你是促進觀光你現在講到目前為止對不對觀光業就跳腳了啊觀光業就衰進行那個要組團去大陸你一句話人家也不能去了這二度傷害勒撥了兩層皮勒沒有沒有現在來來來最後啦好不好最後30秒啦你跟我們全國的民眾講一下啦我們還是可以去香港啦"},{"start":488.215,"end":509.684,"text":"我再講一次沒有風險我現在當然自己判斷因為我不知道你有沒有風險沒有風險我歡迎港澳跟臺灣自由往來逛逛交流還是什麼有沒有風險讓情報單位讓國安局去判斷有風險真的我直接來主委一下交通部長拜託你不要幫人家定位我沒有那個意思我再講一次真的"},{"start":511.445,"end":527.775,"text":"二樓室也可以去雖然在打仗還是可以去我沒有講我真的是善意的提醒不是說那個主席主席提供的非常好讓自己去判斷阿第二個是重點你的定位是促進觀光因為觀光業都是有夠衰阿主席你現在已經撥了第二層皮了好不好多幫幫幫幫我們的觀光業的業者讓民眾也歡迎快快樂樂去香港玩好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":540.185,"end":541.307,"text":"部長你跑一趟北京嘛"}]}},{"id":"150390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bb34bae7867462bb4e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a69616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:29:49 - 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12:28:31","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":564,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:28:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:19:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時19分）謝謝主席。您先稍坐，我等電腦。"],["主席：無聲勝有聲，就是請王部長的意思。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那喝口水。","好了，可以了，請王部長。"],["主席：我看部長在喝水，不忍心打斷。"],["王部長國材：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長。謝謝主席，謝謝大家，辛苦了。我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例以及適不適合用特別條例的方式來處理。我要再次強調，我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠、不分黨派，但照顧花蓮與臺東必須「照步來」、「照起工」。我支持讓這條快速公路的可行性評估往前走，但是用特別條例可能涉及違憲的疑慮，如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告違憲，反而讓這項建設的正當性沒有了。所以我想請提案委員真的不只要三思而後行，更要百思而後行。今天站在這裡，我要說我一直想到前立委、未來的副總統蕭美琴，她在交通委員會對於花蓮交通的爭取是如何努力、如何打拼！但是蕭美琴不會用違憲的條例、用限縮交通合理專業評估的方式爭取建設，不是嗎？所以，照顧花蓮、臺東要「照步來」，交通建設要「照起工」。","首先我要提醒，這樣的提案，今天的花東快速道路條例只是第一個，2,500億起跳。後續還有國6東延案，至少要8,000億起跳。第三個同樣是傅崐萁總召提案的環島高鐵，那不是億來億去，而是兆來兆去！目前由傅崐萁委員領銜提案的3個特別條例中，有的是用特別預算，有的要用不同基金處理，我想先問部長，這到底是經過精算的數字，還是只是初估，甚至是低估呢？"],["王部長國材：我們有初估，這是初估的。對於初估金額，花東快速公路可行性研究有做，大致上是兩千五百多億。"],["吳委員思瑤：以上。"],["王部長國材：然後，對於國6東延部分，我們初估大概8,000億。"],["吳委員思瑤：也是以上。"],["王部長國材：環島高鐵還沒有全島，就是環島的沒有，關於環島高鐵，我們是建議一段一段來做。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。謝謝部長回答。換言之，這樣三個特別條例的預算匡定，而且限期10年，這是非常rough的估計，未來國庫要提出的金額可能是無以數計，所以慷國家之慨要精算，不是用一個特別條例，數字填一填、寫一寫就可以。我知道今天您站在這裡很不利，可能有很多國民黨的委員就回去剪抖音了，好像民進黨的王國材部長是反對花東快速道路，事實上並沒有。"],["王部長國材：沒有、沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：照顧花東的交通建設，民進黨何其用心，已經投入的，不管是公路、鐵路的建設，有2,200億；規劃中的，不管是鐵路或公路的建設，超過3,000億，照顧花東的交通建設，民進黨很用心，而就這個案子的可行性評估，我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白，就花東快速公路的建設，當初在馬英九任內，讓可行性評估停擺、打回票的是不是馬英九時期？"],["王部長國材：是。他在102年到105年，最後105年做了一個決定，就不做了。"],["吳委員思瑤：就不做了嘛，所以國民黨執政的時候不做了嘛，是蔡英文總統上任之後重啟這一個案子的可行性評估，就是109年，我們大概再等三、四個月，8月就有進一步的可行性評估，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這一個道路建設是民進黨讓它從胎死腹中到重建生機，起死回生，不是嗎？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要再次強調，照顧花東「照步來」，交通建設「照起工」，立法不能凌駕行政權，依照憲法第七十條及釋字第391號、釋字第613號，權力分立的原則要捍衛，否則硬要用一個特別條例，最後被釋憲違憲以後，反而是讓這一個公路重大建設被無限期delay，這是有風險的。","我要再補充，很多委員在說民進黨政府提出了前瞻基礎建設計畫，也有花東發展條例，也有離島建設條例，第一個，那是行政權提出，有完整的交通財務相關的規劃。第二個，這些都是通案的建設，沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設，所以非常清楚。也有委員說：「這是一個特別條例，不是特別預算，你們不要說這是特別預算。」不好意思，這個條例的第七條不就寫得很清楚，它是用特別條例來綁住，說本條例所需建設經費上限為新臺幣2,500億，循特別預算辦理，它本質就是一個特別預算，就是違憲嘛。第二個，交通建設的評估程序，為什麼要回歸專業？從可行性評估到綜合規劃，到基本設計，到細部設計，到開工、動工，再到驗收，這是一個完整的程序。我們來看看雪隧，雪隧多少年啊？雪隧從1982年公路總局開始提出可行性評估，到1990年行政院核定，到1991年導坑動工，到1993年主線動工，2006年全線通車，這是雪隧的「照起工」。高鐵從1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究，1987年可行性評估開始，1999年動工，2007年通車，這是負責任的專業評估，更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以交通建設的評估要「照起工」嘛。這個條例限期10年，就是要我們快速地快轉，所有的程序不顧，所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎？當然不是這樣。支持一個建設，就讓它「照起工」，好好做，安全性各項都無虞。","我最後一個要講的是違反財政紀律跟財務評估，我赫然發現，我手上拿著的是2016年徐榛蔚縣長擔任立法委員的時候就同一個條例提出的提案，這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案，兩個提案完全照抄，一模一樣，只有四個字不一樣，就是徐榛蔚2016年版是1,000億就好，到2024年傅崐萁的提案，全文照抄，只把1,000億改成2,500億。這數字是可以隨便填空的啊？這數字不需要精準的財務評估啊？所以針對財政紀律法，言必稱財政紀律，國民黨還要提案來修正預算法第八十三條，限縮特別預算的使用的第四款要拿掉，那是自打嘴巴，不是嗎？所以我們要再次強調，交通是專業，照顧花東，民進黨很用心，我們努力來做。今天部長在這裡再三地說明，我們支持這個建設往前走，蔡英文總統任內，讓它的可行性評估起死回生，我們希望三、四個月後可行性評估有好的方向，那就可以循國家預算的程序，還不需要編列特別預算，不是嗎？你們也整組都準備好了嘛，對不對？所以謝謝主席多給我時間，部長，您再清楚講一次，我們支持這一個提案，不要用特別條例的方式，反而讓這個案子最後被大法官釋憲是違憲的話，就無限期的延宕。"],["主席：好，「支持」這兩個字就好了啦。支持啦。"],["王部長國材：對，我想花東的任何建設我們都支持，但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走，因為走行政程序，在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考，讓這個建設未來更可行。你剛剛談到雪隧也是經過這種程序，所以現在通車也是完整的。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，所以我們往這個方向。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們全力支持，可行性評估如果完成，我們就「照起工」、「照步來」，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝大家，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳思瑤委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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rx":[{"start":7.876,"end":12.26,"text":"吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長"},{"start":28.543,"end":53.08,"text":"部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個"},{"start":55.302,"end":81.809,"text":"快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴"},{"start":82.793,"end":103.368,"text":"他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎"},{"start":104.148,"end":130.828,"text":"所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去"},{"start":133.51,"end":149.321,"text":"所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長"},{"start":150.011,"end":172.088,"text":"我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段"},{"start":173.329,"end":189.031,"text":"謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算"},{"start":189.992,"end":210.67,"text":"不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有"},{"start":211.511,"end":227.16,"text":"照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心"},{"start":228.681,"end":250.419,"text":"而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了"},{"start":250.759,"end":250.839,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":275.146,"end":284.338,"text":"我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號"},{"start":291.227,"end":310.952,"text":"全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個"},{"start":315.293,"end":331.109,"text":"那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算"},{"start":335.794,"end":348.973,"text":"不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個"},{"start":351.977,"end":371.634,"text":"交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊"},{"start":372.788,"end":381.781,"text":"雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿"},{"start":388.371,"end":412.104,"text":"高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年"},{"start":416.557,"end":441.702,"text":"這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案"},{"start":443.042,"end":461.691,"text":"這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的"},{"start":467.553,"end":469.976,"text":"此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律"},{"start":475.342,"end":498.615,"text":"國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走"},{"start":499.375,"end":515.509,"text":"蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?"},{"start":516.83,"end":543.528,"text":"所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考"},{"start":544.448,"end":557.834,"text":"讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150387","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150387","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b5ef40c51a0d5ef5bcabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a65d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:13:07 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12:18:58","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":351,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:18:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:13:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。部長，本席從2月1日擔任立委開始，我就希望透過理性監督、友善互動，讓不同政黨之間能夠找到平衡點，共同為我們臺東人找到新的方向跟出路，解決臺東的問題。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["黃委員建賓：不過目前看起來，本席真的是太天真了！","交通部針對花東快速道路建設特別條例給了很多理由，像是計畫路線達到174公里啊！還有路廊行經至少11個原住民部落、涉及特定農業區、花東縱谷自然景觀區、都蘭山、地震帶、利吉惡地等地質敏感區域，後續環評等相關作業程序敏感、複雜，容易造成與環保團體對立。交通部又說，該項建設經費規模龐大，依照憲法規定，立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出提議，剛剛在早上已經有很多委員都提到這件事情。聽了這麼多理由，我的感覺就是交通部不要蓋花東快。部長，你要不要大聲地跟大家講一下？到底臺東要不要蓋？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們就是支持它進行，所以現在啟動可行性研究。剛才談到的經過原民部落還有一些環境影響地區，這些是在我們目前做可行性報告時碰到的，但碰到不是代表不做，而是我們必須克服，就是環評時怎麼透過工程的辦法來克服，這是我們要克服的。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，花東快速公路評估重啟到底是為什麼？政府從民國109年開始重啟評估，經過4年時間，這個月應該會在臺東辦最後一場可行性評估說明會嘛！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["黃委員建賓：但我今天看到交通部這個態度，感覺是不會蓋啦！那為什麼還要花人民的納稅錢辦這樣的4年評估？部長，如果今天不蓋，對於這個過程裡的花費，本席要求參與該項計畫的所有核章主管都要自掏腰包來處理這件事情。"],["王部長國材：不，委員，你現在講得太快了！我們的報告還沒完成，也還沒有審耶！所以你不要那麼悲觀，真的！我覺得如果……"],["黃委員建賓：我當然很悲觀啊！"],["王部長國材：如果日後有什麼課題，我認為臺東可以跟交通部一起克服，我願意用這種態度處理。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我為什麼會很悲觀？因為在我們看到的所有消息裡面，都顯示非常不支持。民進黨團總召用「違憲亂政」這4個字為這項條例上色……"],["王部長國材：他在說條例，不是指這項建設。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我沒有辦法接受啦！如果過去這8年趕快進行，我們就沒有必要拚這項專法啦！不要連溝通都不溝通，就這樣惡意阻止我們想要改變的動力。若真的不行，其實我們可以討論嘛！部長，你也認同這個法嘛！"],["王部長國材：不是，我再講一次，對於花東快速公路的建設，我們是支持它往前走，也在克服困難。但包括你剛才提到的，是在談這個條例不必要，不是反對花東快速道路，我再次跟委員報告。對於花東，如同我們現在談的宜蘭高鐵延伸，在二階環評中也有很多課題要克服啊！我們現在也一直在克服，不會放棄啦！所以在這部分，我們跟委員是站在一起的，要讓這個計畫往前走。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席是來自臺東的委員，臺東人跟花蓮人一樣都為這個國家付出。"],["王部長國材：了解。"],["黃委員建賓：我們一樣為這個社會奉獻，卻連最基本的要求一條快速、安全的道路，到現在都還看不到這個盼望的終點！當西部都在談高鐵、高捷等捷運時，我們連一條快速道路都還沒有！部長，臺東人……","主席，讓我再講幾句話。我想跟部長反映，臺東人的悲哀就是我們臺東人說的「生病要看時辰」啦！「命要比路長」啦！如同剛才高金委員提到的，花東醫療資源缺乏，在場每一個人有哪一個人有家人、朋友、親戚、認識的人因為交通的關係在就醫路上，中途不幸離開？有嗎？我們要的就是公平的對待而已。本席要求花東快速道路要趕快做，不只到臺東市，而且要南延到太麻里地區。","另外，我也要求重啟南橫高的評估跟研究，因為這才是真的能打通臺東任督二脈最重要的因素。部長，如果真的站在花東人的立場，希望你們能夠將心比心，請在場各位將心比心。"],["王部長國材：跟黃委員報告，一樣的，我說我支持啦！然後，針對國6延伸，現在地質、地貌調查，我們也在進行中。"],["黃委員建賓：好。部長，跟牌子寫的一樣，臺東人不是次等公民，臺東人不欠這個國家、我們沒有對不起這個國家，也希望這個國家能照顧到這塊土地上住在偏鄉、東部的這群人。謝謝部長。"],["王部長國材：我完全贊成。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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主席我們請部長 部長請黃委員好 部長好部長本期從2月1號開始擔任立委開始我就希望透過理性的監督友善的互動來讓不同政黨之間能夠找到平衡點"},{"start":37.455,"end":47.355,"text":"我們希望共同為我們台東人找到新的方向跟出路來解決台東的問題不過到目前看起來本席真的是太天真了齁"},{"start":50.543,"end":76.036,"text":"我們交通部針對花東快速建設特別條例給了很多的理由像是我們計劃路線達到174公里還有路廊行經至少11個原住民部落然後涉及特定的農業區花東中古之安景觀區都蘭山地震帶立即遏定等等地質敏感的區域相關後續的環評作業程序敏感複雜容易造成與環保團體對立交通部又說"},{"start":77.576,"end":88.746,"text":"該項建設經費規模龐大依照憲法規定立法院對於行政院所提的預算不得為增加之誤這個剛剛在早上很多的委員都提到這件事情我聽了這麼多"},{"start":92.912,"end":116.475,"text":"我感覺就是交通部不要蓋花東快部長你要不要大聲的跟大家講一下到底我們台東要不要蓋我跟你們報告我們就是支持他進行所以現在就是在啟動可行性剛才談到經過嚴明部落還有一些環境影響力這是在我們目前的可行性報告有碰到但碰到不是代表不做"},{"start":117.136,"end":142.207,"text":"就是我們必須克服說環評裡面怎麼樣透過我們工程的辦法來做克服這個我們要來克服部長部長我們的花東快速條例重啟到底是為什麼我們從民國109年開始重啟評估經過4年的時間那這個月在台東要辦應該是要在台東要辦最後一場的這個可行性評估說明會嘛他們今天看到交通部長這個態度我感覺是不會蓋啦那只要花著民眾大數據錢來辦這樣4年評估部長"},{"start":145.854,"end":166.724,"text":"如果今天不蓋的話那這筆這個過程裡面的花費本期要求所有在參與蓋章計劃所有合張的主管都要自拍要自拍要發出這件事情委員你現在講的太快了我們還報告還沒完成也還沒有審欸所以你不要那麼悲觀真的我是覺得如果我當然就悲觀的啦我覺得你如果在後面什麼課題的時候我覺得"},{"start":170.646,"end":178.192,"text":"我們民進黨總召用違憲亂政這個四個字,因為這條路上色齁,保證我沒有辦法接受啦齁,如果過去這8年趕快進行,我們沒有必要拼這個專法啦,不要連溝通都不溝通,就用這樣二一來阻止我們想要改變的動力啦齁,"},{"start":200.492,"end":221.602,"text":"不過其實這個不行,他們可以來討論嘛,如果你認同,部長你也認同這個法嗎?不是,那個,各位法官,我再講一次齁,花東快速公路的建設,我們是支持它往前走,我們也來克服它的困難。現在齁,包括你剛剛提到的,那個是要談這個條例不必要,不是在反對花東快速道路,我再跟委員做一個報告。然後,"},{"start":222.022,"end":223.503,"text":"本席是來自臺東的委員臺東跟花蓮人一樣都是為這個國家付出"},{"start":247.813,"end":262.836,"text":"我們一樣為這個社會奉獻然後我們連最基本的要求一條快速安全的道路到現在都還看不到這盼望的終點在西部都在講交替、講交捷、講捷運的時候我們連一條快速道路都還沒有"},{"start":264.69,"end":291.637,"text":"部長,台東人,許讓我再講幾句話。部長,我想要跟部長反映的是,台東人的悲哀就是,我們台東人說,看不看事情,人命要比路長。剛剛高建文提到的,台東花東的醫療缺乏,在場的每一個人,哪一個人因為你有家人、朋友、親戚、認識的人,因為交通的關係在就業路上中途不幸離開,有嗎?"},{"start":294.95,"end":313.398,"text":"我們要的就是一個公平的對待而已本席要求花東快速道要趕快做不只到台東市而且要南延到泰馬里地區另外我們要求我們要重啓我們南岸高的這個評估跟研究因為這個才是真的打通台東任路二脈最重要的因素這邊邀請部長"},{"start":316.533,"end":345.37,"text":"如果真的站在花東人的立場希望你們能夠將心比心在場的各位將心比心我一樣我說我支持然後那個國六連升我們現在也在做地質地貿的一些調查也在進行中是好部長牌子寫的一樣臺東不是次等公民我們沒有對不起這個國家也希望這個國家能夠照顧到這塊土地上住在偏鄉東部的這群人謝謝部長我完全贊成謝謝"},{"start":347.298,"end":347.759,"text":"好謝謝黃建賓委員"}]}},{"id":"150386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b3c7fb0ad954ccc6dcabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a083280c9df5163c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:05:30 - 12:12:57","影片長度":"00:07:27","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":447,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:12:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:05:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時5分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：謝謝部長，麻煩。"],["王部長國材：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：部長好。對於今天討論的花東快速公路建設特別條例，其實你在你的報告裡已經做了結論。你的結論是「依據目前公共建設推動之評估審議程序，不僅開發過程需兼顧程序正義，亦需確保花東地區環境人文之永續發展，故請求大院委員審慎考量；並能基於憲政分際，充分尊重行政權完整性，不宜擅為增加預算支出，本條例確實有窒礙難行之處。」所以是不要囉？是吧？"],["王部長國材：對，但是……"],["高金委員素梅：跟你剛剛講的8月份有可行性評估好像有一點點邏輯不通。"],["王部長國材：但是跟高金委員報告，對於花東快速公路，我還是支持繼續推動。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。","我接下來要告訴您，針對花東人民需要一條安全回家的路，我和你做歷史性的交流、溝通，也告知您。我覺得好的政策、對人民有利的政策就應該持續支持，這是政府存在的需要跟必要，也是人民繳的納稅錢，應該予以完成的。看一下1990年2月，也就是34年前，行政院就已經核定改善交通全盤計畫，把蘇花高速公路跟花東高速公路列為環島高速公路網的發展計畫之一，也就是34年前我們的政府就已經看到前瞻的東西，但34年過去了，這個行政院核定的東部最重要的交通建設還停擺著。除了這個行政院核定的計畫把它停擺著之外，又有了蘇花改、蘇花安、蘇花替，但就是沒有蘇花高。蘇花公路到現在也是支離破碎的，花東高速公路更毫無訊息。","看一下2007年，行政院又核定了東部永續發展綱要計畫，以非常華麗的詞藻宣示什麼？東部地區是臺灣最後一塊淨土，東部的發展不可以追逐西部的模式喔！坦白講，白話文就是西部有高鐵，東部就不要有；西部有高速公路，東部就不能有；西部有快速道路，東部就不能有，因為不可以追逐西部的模式。然後，取而代之的是什麼？建設東部為具有多元文化特質、自然生態景觀、優質生活環境跟國際級觀光景點的區域永續發展典範，要成為大家所關注的議題。講得非常好聽喔！但好像就是沒有安全回家的路。所以我的解釋是因為沒有安全回家的路，導致花東地區每一次被人家關注的議題就是非常大的、重要的交通事故，還有買不到車票，或者是現在的雪隧塞車。","再看一下，2011年政府為了照顧、重視我們花東居民，又把原本的東部永續發展綱要計畫提升為法律位階的花東地區發展條例，規定政府要以10年時間撥400億。好多錢喔！看來不是沒有錢啊！政府也有錢啊！這400億要做為什麼之用呢？觀光、文化、醫療、社福、交通，還有基礎建設。你今天又在報告裡提到花東非常多交通基礎建設，所以不是沒有錢啊！動不動就是兩千多億、動不動就是三千多億。所以沒有預算、沒有什麼都不是重要的，而是政府的決策到底為何。","我們再來看一下。花東地區提出第四期，也就是113年到116年綜合發展實施方案的現況分析，它是怎麼分析呢？第一，從觀光客的觀點，疫情舒緩之後，111年臺東縣旅客人數增加了280萬人次，成長了52.99%。然而，從本地也就是花東居民的觀點，不僅僅是原住民族人喔！他們認為偏鄉醫療資源是不足的，長期以來都是花東居民深刻的痛。我們檢視全國重度級急救責任醫院名單，花蓮縣只有花蓮慈濟醫院，臺東縣只有台東馬偕紀念醫院，都分布在哪裡？花蓮跟臺東的北區。但花東地區從南區到北區交通最起碼超過1個小時以上啊！如果我們有重大傷病，往往就會發生錯失搶救機會的狀況。所以必須有快速道路機制才可以解決這些問題啊！這些都是你們113年到116年綜合發展實施方案裡面的現況分析喔！所以不管是從醫療角度、不管是從交通角度、不管是從政府應該做的事情來看，部長，您還是認為窒礙難行嗎？您支持嗎？"],["王部長國材：我現在沒有講花東快速公路窒礙難行，而是講條例啦！"],["高金委員素梅：那條例有什麼窒礙難行的？你剛剛說違憲，但在場委員就告訴你違不違憲不是你部長說的。"],["王部長國材：是，我主要是表達中長程計畫有我們的評估程序啦！"],["高金委員素梅：然後呢？"],["王部長國材：如果這個……"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛說8月份會有一份評估報告吧？"],["王部長國材：對，就做出來了，所以……"],["高金委員素梅：現在已經快要4月了，請問一下評估報告裡面的內容？能不能宣布一下是什麼？可是我看到你今天的報告結論就是窒礙難行、無法推動啊！"],["王部長國材：是，那是在講條例。"],["高金委員素梅：這是什麼意思？能不能再講清楚一點？到底可不可以？"],["王部長國材：我再講一下。對於花東快速道路計畫，我們支持它往前走，現在在做可行性評估……"],["高金委員素梅：可是它違憲？由立法委員提出來是違憲的？"],["王部長國材：道路建設沒有違憲，而是不需要用這個條例。我也不想用違憲這個字，但就是不需要用這個條例，我們現在就在進行了。如果針對個案就用條例是什麼意思呢？例如捷運也要做特別條例，每一個人都把他的個案計畫變成特別條例啊！我是覺得這樣也不妥。"],["高金委員素梅：你的意思是不要提條例，但是花東快速公路是可以完成的？"],["王部長國材：對，我們現在在做……"],["高金委員素梅：甚至高速公路也可以？"],["王部長國材：現在就是……"],["高金委員素梅：我剛剛說了，34年前就已經有這些花東建設計畫。"],["王部長國材：不過現在可行性研究是針對快速道路，現在是做快速道路。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！官員都在這邊，部長，我也很尊重您，520之後您還能不能在這個位子上，我們還不太清楚，所以您這一天在這邊的態度其實也不能真正代表現在政府的態度或未來政府的態度。但任何一個民意代表在這邊告訴大家的都是花東居民需要，而且從34年前就已經設定花東居民需要一條快速、安全回家的道路，不要任何政府執政之後態度都不一樣。我是一個無黨籍的委員、是沒有任何顏色的，我也希望未來的政府應該朝花東全民的利益著想，而不是要選舉的時候提出什麼樣的政策，而選舉結束又說窒礙難行，這是在欺騙花東鄉親，好嗎？"],["王部長國材：我們對於建設都會支持啦！"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員。","下一位請黃建賓委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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高速公路東部就不能有西部有快速道路東部就不能有因為不可以追逐西部的魔術然後取而代之的是什麼建設東部是具有"},{"start":155.595,"end":181.903,"text":"多元文化特質自然生態景觀優質生活環境跟國際級的觀光景點的區域永續發展典範然後要成為這個大家所關注的議題講得非常好聽喔好像就是沒有安全回家的路所以我的解釋是說沒有安全回家的路花東地區每一次被人家關注的議題就是非常大的重要的交通事故"},{"start":182.583,"end":204.98,"text":"還有買不到車票或者是現在的血稅塞車再來看一下2011年政府為了要再度重視我們花東居民然後又把原本的東部永續發展綱要計劃提升為法律未接的花東地區發展條例然後規定我們的政府呢要以10年的時間撥400億好多錢喔看來"},{"start":207.742,"end":225.529,"text":"不是沒有錢啊政府也有錢啊然後你們這400億要作為什麼呢觀光文化醫療社福交通還有基礎建設所以你今天的報告裡面都花東了非常多的交通的基礎建設不是沒有錢啊動不動就是2000多億動不動就是3000多億"},{"start":228.71,"end":252.326,"text":"所以沒有預算沒有什麽都不是重要的而是政府的決策到底我們再來看一下花東地區提出第4期也就是113年到116年綜合發展實施方案的現況分析他什麽分析呢第一從觀光客的觀點疫情舒緩了之後我們看一下111年台東縣的旅客人數增加了280萬次成長了52.99%"},{"start":257.469,"end":279.643,"text":"然後這從本地也就是花東居民的觀點不僅僅是原住民族族人偏向醫療資源是不足的長期以來都是花東居民深刻的痛我們檢視全國重度級的急救責任醫院的名單花蓮縣只有花蓮慈濟醫院有臺東縣只有臺東馬界醫院醫院都分布在哪裡花蓮跟臺東的北區"},{"start":281.544,"end":311.544,"text":"﹗"},{"start":312.025,"end":320.694,"text":"還是自愛難行嗎?您支持嗎?我現在沒有講那個花東快速公路自愛難行我是講條例啦那條例有什麼自愛難行?你剛剛說違憲剛剛在場的委員就告訴你違不違憲不是你部長說的我主要是在這個中長城計畫有我們的評估程序"},{"start":331.947,"end":357.247,"text":"然後呢?你剛說8月份有個評估報告吧?那現在已經是快要4月了那請問一下評估報告裡面的能不能宣布一下是什麼可是我又看到你今天的結論就是說是自愛難行無法推動嗎?這是什麼?什麼意思?你們再講清楚一點到底可不可以?花東快速道路我們是支持他往前走做可行性可是他是違憲"},{"start":358.909,"end":387.37,"text":"議員提出來是違憲的道路建設沒有違憲是說不需要用這個條例我也不想用什麼違憲這個字但是就是不需要用這個條例我們現在就要進行了因為你如果個案就用這個條例是什麼意思每一項決議也要特別條例什麼每一個人都把他的個案計畫都是變成特別條例我是覺得這樣那你的意思說不要提條例但是呢花東快速公路是可以甚至於高速公路也可以"},{"start":388.944,"end":404.285,"text":"我剛說了34年前就已經有花東的這些建設不過現在可行是做快速道路現在是做快速道路是好啦我覺得官員在這邊部長我很尊重您520之後可能您能不能在這個位置上我們還不太清楚"},{"start":404.865,"end":424.997,"text":"所以您今天在這邊的態度其實也不能夠真正代表現在政府的態度或者是未來政府的態度但是我們今天任何一個民意代表在這邊告訴大家的是花東居民需要從34年前就已經設定花東居民需要一個快速安全回家的道路不要任何一個政府執政了之後態度都不一樣"},{"start":425.717,"end":440.161,"text":"我是一個無黨籍的沒有任何顏色的我也希望未來的政府應該是朝全民花東全民的利益而著想而不是說要選舉的時候提出什麼樣的政策要選舉結束以後又說自愛難行這是在欺騙花東的鄉親好嗎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150385","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150385","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bb8df12bb4c1dda508506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a64159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:20:27 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12:27:57","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":450,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:27:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:20:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1072,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時20分）謝謝主席。我想要請主計長，問一次少一次，對不對？"],["主席：請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：早！主計長，我聽說早上你已經說了，因為你上次說沒有算到4月份的物價調整，那你現在預估全年CPI是上漲2.03%，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，這是我們內部的估計，並沒有對外發布。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有對外發布？早上11點的新聞就已經出來了。"],["朱主計長澤民：他們大概不知道程序，因為我們物價的發布要經過國民所得評審委員會，國民所得評審委員會要到5月才會開會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是哦！我剛才看到新聞，已經公布是2.03%，可能是因為你5月份不在了，所以它不想要等到那時候再發。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，謝謝委員說我5月份不在。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有，可是我還是很想要請教主計長，到底CPI在什麼樣的情況下有可能會破2.5%？還是有可能耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：就目前國內的趨勢以及世界經濟的趨勢是不會，除非有一個在經濟學上講的不確定因素，像油價激烈地上漲或者是國際有金融風暴，那樣才可能有這種情況。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為目前來講，不管是工業電價的上漲也好，或者是整個電價調整的方案也好，是不會造成這種情況，可是你也不知道啊！說不定9月的時候，電價審議委員會又再次調漲，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：據我知道，目前並沒有說9月要再上漲，目前沒有這個規劃。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有另外一點就是GDP的問題，你們都說了，GDP是3.43%左右嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，國內各機構目前的估測都是在三點幾，外國機構還有估我們四點幾的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有更高的，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果在更高的情況下，我們用電的需求有可能會增加，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，不過現在國內因為節能措施的影響，以及企業界它購買綠電或者是節能措施，事實上，會不會像預估的那樣增加，是一個不確定的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是如果未來石油的價格上漲，原油價格上漲，的確有可能使得GDP那個預測的數字，連國內的三點多percent都達不到了，也不可能到外國機構所謂的四點多percent，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，現在國內的機構大部分，不管中華、中央或者是中央銀行，都是在三點幾，在同一個時間大家的估測是一樣的。事實上，IMF和標普全球也都是估計我們今年大概三點幾。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。我只是想要問你，我怕以後問不到你。"],["朱主計長澤民：這樣子啦！你打電話給我，我一定會跟你講。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你會接我電話就對了，謝謝。","我想要再請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委，我也看到了，就ETF過熱的問題，你提到未來三個管理的要件就是資訊的完整性，投信業者把發行的ETF賣給適合的投資人，其實這都非常空泛，什麼叫適合的投資人？第二個，在6月底前，投信業者跟網紅合作行銷的自律規範，規範的範圍是如何？因為網紅他們不像投顧公司具有理財的專業，那未來他們是否可以推銷相關的金融商品？我認為這個講得都非常空泛。第三個就是你要督促證交所跟櫃買中心建立市場風險的監控機制，今天早上你說股市上2萬點，你說注意風險、審慎選股啊！那我也知道，身為主管機關，你是不介入股市炒作的，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，後面那兩個字是交易，不是炒作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我是說你不能夠介入，你應該只是提醒有風險嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有介入，我上任快四年，都是講這8個字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道，我知道你不可以介入市場交易，這個我清楚啦！我是在講這三個要件你怎麼樣去處理。"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟您報告，也許我講得不清楚，其實就是你要知道你的客戶的風險胃納，你要讓客戶知道這個商品的特質，包括它可能產生的風險。至於網紅的部分，因為他是一個新興的中介，我知道有很多投信公司間接、直接跟網紅有合約，但是網紅在宣導的時候，民眾不知道他後面跟投信的關係，民眾以為這是他的專業，不知道後面也許跟投信有對價關係，那將來這個要怎麼規範，我們希望公會儘快提出一套可行的方式。"],["謝委員衣鳯：第三個呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：第三個就是大家關心眾多的ETF，如果它下面的成分股集中在某些個股的時候，我們怎麼樣管理它的風險，有沒有大家關心的集中度的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我覺得這三個ETF目前在市場過熱的情況下，再加上央行升息，大家對高股息相關的商品當然會特別關注，我認為金管會一定要把相關的規範做清楚，才能夠讓民眾尤其高齡的金融客戶，他們對於ETF的需求通常是比較高的，我們應該要把相關的規範界定好，才不會降低他們投資金融商品的資訊落差，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，這是我們的責任，謝謝委員的期許。"],["謝委員衣鳯：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：因為時間的關係，等一下現場就發言到鄭天財委員為止──現場還有楊瓊瓔委員，到楊瓊瓔委員。大家都還沒用餐，楊瓊瓔也在。下一位質詢請黃國昌黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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放大意給你啊新政府會不會進行改革?會不會持續改革?我不能代表新政府來回答啊你現在沒有信心你繼續做保證是嗎?你為什麼這樣子推責任不負責任你現在是部長喔我現在還是"},{"start":250.55,"end":278.476,"text":"還是現任的勞動部部長啊所以你現在沒得到諮詢是不是不是我已經講過了我說我現在就是做好目前的工作希望能夠順利交到給下一任嘛好我還是告訴你有政府不會倒這樣子的口號請你不要再用這種口號騙數掛數來本刷已經這麼多年了請你注意聽把你改革的進度你的時間表跟具體的進展書面資料給本席"},{"start":279.756,"end":281.597,"text":"應照頁最近113年設定應照頁墜落打擊年,因為在整個111年裡頭,"},{"start":303.766,"end":327.001,"text":"那我們看到墜落的部分是佔了70%所以113年設定營造業墜落打擊年那請教目前你們怎麼樣去改善之?你的人員你檢查人員夠不夠要怎麼去改善?請教部長既然有這個口號出來就是嚴重的問題怎麼改善它?怎麼防止它?"},{"start":331.044,"end":354.181,"text":"這個檢查方面的策略我們當然會把增加這方面的檢查的頻率人夠嗎?檢查人力夠嗎?我們人力目前當然你要增加頻率我知道本席知道你會這麼回答所以本席要提問了你的人力夠不夠?報告委員我們現在的人力就是"},{"start":355.746,"end":359.008,"text":"含報告事項21案及討論含報告事項21案及討論含報告事項21案及討論含報告事項21案及討論"},{"start":383.604,"end":390.359,"text":"能夠完成不要再墜落了最後一個議題馬上最後謝謝主席最後一個議題漲價了我們勞工怎麼辦"},{"start":394.352,"end":405.283,"text":"關於自來水公司我問他說你電價漲了之後你會增加多少成本他告訴我10億我問了經濟部長那是你所屬的你會不會給他10億沒有那是怎麼辦我們電價怎麼辦陳院長說漲價跟電價它沒有直接的關係我們說電價"},{"start":414.512,"end":431.908,"text":"已經開始要漲價了怎麼辦民生很苦勞工很苦怎麼辦還是要吃飯怎麼辦通勤族的觀光捷運因為漲價他要增加多少電費增加他的成本會增加會不會轉嫁到通勤族我們都好緊張都很緊張連一個麵包我們也很緊張你看一個麵包電要給他加"},{"start":439.475,"end":444.661,"text":"上萬元的這個電費它會不會漲價你認為會不會漲價因為電價漲而產生物價會漲你認為會不會漲是有可能大家都同意啊國防會主委說會漲啊那我們的勞工怎麼辦"},{"start":456.275,"end":477.017,"text":"所以這個部分我們會持續關注你要怎麼關注對消費者物價指數的影響他會漲啊那老公怎麼辦你的最低薪資最低工資法對那個CPI對消費者物價指數年增率這個是因參財指標法定因參財指標那其實這個CPI就是包括了"},{"start":478.138,"end":505.163,"text":"居住類相關指數彩米油鹽包括電所以現在統統都會漲一定都會漲所以你要怎麼辦今年我們在討論第三季我想最低工資審議會在討論什麼事要討論第三季在7、8、9我們最低工資都是第三季決定我想到時候委員會斟酌相關的因素去做一個合理的決定所以我要你一個資料電價上漲對於勞工的衝擊"},{"start":507.901,"end":515.457,"text":"你請書面資料給本席在你第三季要開會的時候你要怎麼樣建立方案讓我們勞工可以穩定生活好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b214802785be91df4756a31bd31097f3af8ba9b0039caa7a661f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:17:45 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各位六席的官員 各位專家學者 大家早安 大家好我先呼應一下剛剛鄭天才委員的說法因為我剛剛邊聽他講 在法條上寫只有一條但只有一條 其實這個原民會應該也有角色但我在一部報告裡面完全沒有看到所以說不要怪大家說覺得這個法溝通不周延很多地方確實要透過更仔細的對話讓這部法的定律有更好的立法品質"},{"start":29.417,"end":58.937,"text":"那麼今天有幾點跟大家做報告第一個按照中華民國現況我們的海島國家海洋生態是我們的重要資產那麼在全球氣候變遷那有很多地方有所謂的過度捕撈的疑慮之下對於海洋生態資源的保育跟這個經濟的活動的平衡它當然有它的必要性也有它的急迫性所以本席非常樂見這個海保法的制定那我更希望的是在海保法內應該要有實際執行的相關期程"},{"start":59.737,"end":85.712,"text":"要求政府提出相關的政策而且落實我想是比定立法律更加重要要修就要像 要修就要做第二個 海洋資源的運用涉及漁業 原住民族 觀光 交通 能源等各方權益要如何均衡協調各方利益以達永續發展目標本席希望海保法相關的政策形成要廣納各界的意見 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灣幾千年來跟台灣的山林跟台灣的海共生共存我們絕對不會破壞"},{"start":293.991,"end":316.71,"text":"所以這個部分不要擔心就把它納入把海洋基本法最重要的這些條文就把它納入具體化明確化這才是一個負責任的一個政府海洋管理法也是一樣也是在第8屆的時候通過的涉及原住民族地區各級主管就因為會商原住民族委員會擬定所以這個部分"},{"start":321.509,"end":340.688,"text":"本席也提出了相關草案涉及到原住民族的基本法把海洋基本法涉及到原住民族的基本原則的部分把它明確化必須在海洋保育法裏面所以我要特別請"},{"start":342.529,"end":356.938,"text":"海洋委員會保育署以及相關的部會在我們主條審查所能夠支持本席所提出來的這些草案因為我們不能比之前還退步"},{"start":358.571,"end":358.771,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bb0cc8888c8549379756a31bd31097f3af8ba9b0039caa7a6536dac32b4bbbdb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:03:51 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"},{"start":100.244,"end":126.559,"text":"其實這些在過去一年多我自己有看到海保署是有做一些努力在跟其他部門來做這些溝通來爭取各界的信任雖然目前聽起來大家還是有一些擔憂但我至少聽起來有幾個部分看起來想法是相近的看起來大家都是同意要針對海洋生態的多樣性來進行保育都會覺得這部分恐怕是需要做更多我覺得這部分看起來聽起來大家是贊同的"},{"start":127.489,"end":152.899,"text":"沒有人認為海洋生態是不需要保育的尤其是需要做更多只是現在問題是在做法跟法規的訂定跟機制的建立上面要怎麼更細緻的處理就我目前今天整個早上的公聽會下來大家關心的是做法上面的工作我這邊有兩個比較重要的建議的原則第一個原則是海洋保育勢必不是要來跟產業發展為敵的"},{"start":155.101,"end":155.461,"text":"洪申翰"},{"start":175.529,"end":193.295,"text":"海洋治理不可或缺的一部分也就是必須以科學為本尤其是假設又要去化解大家在保育跟產業上面衝突的話更需要利據這些詳細而且真實的科學的資訊這是第一個原則第二個原則是必須要消除不同利害關係人的疑慮的時候"},{"start":195.296,"end":217.694,"text":"也要降低化受海洋屁股區相關的正義化那現在我們在審議的機制裡面必須要明確的納入不同利害關係人參與的權利這必須被保障所以在這點裡面在我自己提出來的版本其實也募集參考了一些遠距法的精神在條文中希望能夠對於審議會裡面各不同參加的代表"},{"start":218.916,"end":219.997,"text":"海洋保育法草案公聽會議"},{"start":241.034,"end":257.301,"text":"過去其實是有一些這些公民科學家和公民團體其實就有反映臺灣的海洋基礎報告的資料尤其是物種的多樣性跟關鍵物種的生態的狀況數量區域跟動態變化這些基礎資料其實都相當的缺乏"},{"start":258.322,"end":258.382,"text":"洪申翰"},{"start":282.64,"end":300.835,"text":"所以如果我們相關單位有做科學研究我認為我們應該要在這個海洋保育法的規範裡面要要求更大程度的公佈相關的科研的結果來開放大家能夠對於這些結果能夠有參與或進一步的下一步的工作才能夠讓這套治理能夠真正的發揮功效來減少衝突"},{"start":302.296,"end":323.116,"text":"那當然除了剛剛講的基礎調查以外包括海域的管理跟海洋保育的教育包括尤其是監控相關的這個工作其實也是會是非常非常重要的一環所以最後我要提的事情是說我們其實都知道在海洋利用的部門跟主管機關其實很多尤其是以現在來說以離岸風電或漁業就是一個例子"},{"start":323.596,"end":323.736,"text":"洪申翰"},{"start":345.223,"end":366.79,"text":"海岸管理法和勢力保育法的這個主管的機關所以為了接下來我自己也希望說如果真的我們要進入審議的話我們也希望能夠用一些附帶決議的方式來去規範這麼複雜的這個主管機關在相對應重要的工作上面他的每個的角色跟工作我們不應該因為都通過了一個法"},{"start":367.21,"end":391.353,"text":"所以讓剛剛很多相關他可能一些座位必須升起的工作變得更加的複雜或者是更加的多頭馬車在主管機關的這個尤其是跨部會機制的規範上面把它建立起來我覺得也可以讓今天在座一些相關的利害相關人他自己有一些相必須保障的權益的時候不會這個在這個主管機關的茫茫大海裡面覺得有更多的成本"},{"start":391.713,"end":391.873,"text":"洪申翰委員"}]}},{"id":"150379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbd6c930f3b5b1b6c756a31bd31097f3af8ba9b0039caa7a6176963589987de955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:57:41 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健康的海洋有助於整個減緩氣候的變遷而氣候穩定也可以阻止海洋環境的一個惡化所以在整個保護海洋的規劃當中我們必須要負起這一個責任 也就是氣候的責任考慮到 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12:15:06","影片長度":"00:04:55","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":295,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:15:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:10:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1005,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時10分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：你好。本席要向您請教，性工法上路後，我們發現疑似有一個小小的漏洞，就是關於實習生的部分。部長應該非常清楚相關法令，對不對？實習生如果在實習現場遭受性騷擾，他可以向學校提出申訴，所屬的實習單位必須有效的糾正，並給予補救措施。","另外，勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位（雇主）的查詢系統，我們以現在畫面上看到的這四個案件為例，部長，你知道什麼樣的單位會被放入這個系統中嗎？他到底違反哪一條、哪一個部分？"],["許部長銘春：這個就是違反雇主的防制義務。"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是他知情，但是沒有通報、沒有積極處理。"],["許部長銘春：主管單位在這裡，通報的部分好像還沒有完成。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，部長，你的幕僚幫你說明一下。"],["黃司長維琛：通報系統剛上路，那個部分我們已經建置完畢，這個是處罰系統，針對雇主的通報義務，應通報而未通報的處罰，因為3月8日才剛開始，之後如果有違法的事件，地方政府裁處以後就會通報進來。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，就是您剛才說的這個部分。可是我們發現，實習生本人或實習生在學校的指導老師，其實並不知道這個實習生即將要去實習的場域有沒有違反您剛才說的相關法律，於是我們事先向勞動部請教，確實，目前這個系統沒有辦法提供資料給教育部或各教育單位，也就是說，之前違反過相關法令的業主或是單位，當他們再找實習生的時候，其實孩子們不知道這個單位曾經觸犯過相關法規。","我們是不是可以快速和勞動部討論一下，你們有沒有什麼機制可以把這些資料提供給教育部？目前如果要確保學生去實習的單位沒有所謂的不適任教育人員，個人是不能查的，只能由學校端到教育部的系統中查詢不適任教育人員，可是我們不知道他即將去實習的這個場域……"],["許部長銘春：這個應該沒有問題，教育部好像有一個系統……"],["陳委員培瑜：教育部那個叫做不適任教育人員系統，它是針對個別人員，如果他有性騷或是其他事情被指認為不適任老師，而且一般人不能查……"],["許部長銘春：你是說事業單位的部分沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，一般人不能查，只有學校可以查……"],["許部長銘春：只有學校可以查嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：對，只有學校可以查。可是我們在想，既然勞動部已經有這個系統，而且一般人可以查，可不可以請你們協助教育部？"],["許部長銘春：可以。委員，這個部分我會請業務單位和教育部討論，我們應該把它建置起來……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，該有所為而沒有為。"],["許部長銘春：剛才你說的教育部系統如果只是……"],["陳委員培瑜：那是不適任人員。"],["許部長銘春：對。如果只是教育端的人可以查詢，對於實習生的保障就不足了。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席在猜啦！可能教育部會說，是不是請實習單位的老師們上勞動部的網站查詢？可是說實在話，部長也知道，目前老師在學校也是日理萬機，事情很多。"],["許部長銘春：對啦！應該要讓實習生本人也可以查，這個比較重要。"],["陳委員培瑜：實習生本人要意識到要來查這件事情，所以上到教育部，下到地方教育局處再到各實習學校，大家都要意識到，實習前要先去查，這樣會比較好，我覺得怪怪的，應該由勞動部和教育部建立一個系統或平台，或者由你們主動、積極和教育部建立一個討論機制，例如A校過往都習慣到A+這個地方實習，假如A+這個實習單位曾經觸犯過相關法規，被登錄到這個系統，你們有沒有一個平台可以把這個資訊告訴教育部，這樣以後有實習生要到這個單位實習時就要稍微注意一下。有沒有這個機制？目前沒有啦！"],["許部長銘春：好的，這個部分我們來檢討，也和教育部合作，處理好了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好的，拜託部長，所以部長有聽懂了……"],["許部長銘春：有，我聽懂了。"],["陳委員培瑜：孩子們要去實習的地方如果曾經觸法，目前是由勞動部公告。"],["許部長銘春：對，主要是讓教育部了解他們實習……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然，我們在教育及文化委員會也會積極和教育部討論，包括怎麼召開跨部會的會議，協助學校的指導老師和實習生，確保不要到有類似案例的地方。這樣好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.64596875,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.26534375,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.67034375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.54721875,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.21784375,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.46659375,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.33909375,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.815343750000004,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.899093750000006,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.38784375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":71.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.85096875,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.12096875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.44534375,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.36846875,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.19096875000001,"end":84.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.00409375000001,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.45471875000001,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.61909375000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.09034375000002,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.10721875000002,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.95784375000002,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.24471875,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.26159375,"end":172.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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這個部分委員 這個部分我請那個業務單位跟教育部這邊對一下"},{"start":191.548,"end":198.531,"text":"我覺得這個我們應該要去把它建制啦該有所為而沒有問題那個是不適任人員喔對 只有職教育端的人可以查那對實習生的保障又不足啦對 那我猜啦 可能教育部會說那我們是不是就請這些實習單位的老師們可以上你們勞動部的網站上來查可是說實話 部長你也知道老師目前在學校日理萬機"},{"start":217.558,"end":226.401,"text":"應該是讓學生本人實習生本人可以查實習生本人他要意識到我要來查這件事情所以教育部從上到教育部到地方教育局處再到各個實習學校大家都要意識到說原來我要實習前我去查"},{"start":232.863,"end":262.343,"text":"這樣子比較好我覺得怪怪的應該是勞動部跟教育部這邊怎麼樣建一個系統或是一個平台或者是你們主動積極去跟教育部建立一個討論的機制例如說A校過往都習慣去Aplus地方實習那Aplus單位呢這個實習單位曾經觸犯過相關的法規被登錄到這個系統來你們有沒有一個告知的平台把這個資訊去告訴教育部說拜託以後這個單位稍微注意一下實習生去這邊稍微注意一下有沒有這個機制目前是沒有的啦"},{"start":262.81,"end":262.831,"text":"嗯?"},{"start":263.499,"end":290.493,"text":"好 這個我們來研討跟教育部這邊合作來處理好拜託部長 所以部長沒有聽懂了啦就是孩子們要去實習的這個地方目前是公告在你們勞動部主要是讓教育部了解他實習那我們當然我們自己在教育文化委員會我們也會積極去跟教育部討論到時候怎麼開跨部會的會議去協助實習學校實習指導老師跟實習生都確保不要去到這個有類似案例的地方這樣好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":292.655,"end":292.695,"text":"陳佩玉議員"}]}},{"id":"150377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150377","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bd961e1277666649d8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a62660ba6cc41290bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:06:28 - 12:20:23","影片長度":"00:13:55","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":835,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:20:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:06:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時6分）我是不是可以請主計長、黃主委、法務部的常次、內政部李副署長以及刑事警察局黃副局長？"],["主席：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我先延續一下剛才羅明才召委的議題，你覺得這一波電價漲之後，物價會不會漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：在一般的情況之下，物價會漲，只是說經濟部設計得很細緻，它的漲幅已經儘量做到最低的影響。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得民眾的感受度會如何？因為經濟部做出來的梗圖是沒差啊！烘焙店每個月只會漲2塊錢，牛肉麵只會漲幾塊錢，你覺得最後這些成本會不會轉嫁到民眾消費身上？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為那個是民生，所以它必然會漲價，不過經濟部設計得很細緻，在小商店的話……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我提醒你，你剛才說應該會漲，只是到最後怎麼漲不曉得，你回去告訴王美花，因為按照道理說，你對於通膨的狀況、物價會漲的狀況，我覺得你在整個行政院裡面，你的敏感度應該是比誰都還要清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：王美花說她會請業者不要因為電價漲就隨便亂漲，你回去跟她講清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：據我知道……"],["李委員彥秀：到底有沒有用？人民的感受度到底會如何？會不會轉嫁到民眾消費身上？用恐嚇的就有用嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我想王部長不是恐嚇，她的意思應該是說不要惡意地漲。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有用？有沒有用？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是道德勸說，有時候也是一個很好的策略，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：道德勸說，下個月我們就會知道，你也笑了一下，下個月你就知道到底有沒有用了。","錯誤的能源政策造成台電到今年年底要虧損4,000億，或許能源配比不要配比得這麼糟糕，台電不會虧損那麼多，這個是我要講的重點，錯誤的能源政策配比，造成台電長期的虧損！我同意電價可以有一些適時的反映，但是民進黨錯誤的能源政策造成台電虧損4,000億，每一年政府都要撥補，民眾變成每一年薪水漲的幅度全部都被通膨吃掉了，這個就是我覺得今天人民很苦但政府無感最大的原因。","好，回來我今天的議題，主計長請回。物價通膨，人民很痛苦，在物價通膨之下，薪水沒有漲之下，詐騙越來越多，民眾也很辛苦，每一個詐騙案背後的數字是人民一生累積下來的積蓄，每一個詐騙的數字背後代表的是人民的血汗錢，我想在現場你們比誰都同意。於此，我今天在質詢的同時，每個禮拜我的辦公室都有接到很多被詐騙的訊息在問我怎麼辦，去報案之後，大家都問我說委員，錢可不可以追得回來？我只能告訴他恐怕很難。我想在現場的每一位，包括金管會的主委，你們比誰都清楚，錢追不回來，很不容易。","但是我要提的是，現在詐騙手法當中有三大區塊，一種是用假投資，一種是網路拍賣，另外一種是解除分期付款。假投資現在是詐騙的第一名，這些假投資背後都是利用民眾人性的貪念，或者是藉由民眾害怕恐懼的弱點去做詐騙的行為，詐騙的方式包括賣未上市的股票、投資外匯或是賣靈骨塔等等都有。民進黨政府從2016年成立打詐中心，2022年成立打詐國家隊，到2023年的打詐辦公室等等，到底有沒有具體的作用？誰可以回答我？有沒有具體的成果？誰可以回答我？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實我們今天報告裡面就已經講了，至少有三個層面，在第三個層面跨部會的部分，我就有列出來我們與數位部、內政部合作的機制，都是這一、兩年在努力達成的，包括與法務部……"],["李委員彥秀：但是你們解決的速度，我不要說破案的速度，你們再努力還跟不上這些犯罪集團氾濫的速度，所以很多外國人才說我們的電信詐騙機房很多在國外，臺灣都已經被外界批評、被外國人批評臺灣是詐騙之島。在現場這幾位，我說得沒有錯，包括我有接到幾個陳情案，有一位是教金融的大學教授，上週他到內湖的銀行分9次去提領了1,700萬，他被銀行的人攔下來說先生，你不要領那麼多，結果他還有一本小冊子，教戰守則教他對銀行人員唸說我就是要領那麼多，也就是詐騙集團有跟他講，當你領不出來或銀行人員為難你的時候，你要怎麼說錢才可以領得出來。","另外一個案子，老先生、老太太退休七十幾歲，上個禮拜他在LINE的股票詐騙社團裡面被騙了三百多萬，也來問我，我跟他講恐怕很難，我其實不太願意跟他講很難拿回來，我說先去報案，我們想辦法，但是我心裡知道不容易，所以這些問題，在現場的4位，我剛剛講的這些數字背後都是人民的血汗錢，這是誰的問題？金管會的問題？警政署的問題？誰可以回答我？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我想很多……"],["李委員彥秀：你們又有打詐辦公室、打詐國家隊，每個禮拜耶！每個禮拜這些案子在各個辦公室也好，派出所也好，都有人陳情耶！被詐騙耶！誰的問題？誰可以回答我？警政署、刑事警察局，誰的問題？沒有人敢回答哦？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，行政院各部會都在努力，我想今天提給委員會的報告，可以看得出來大家最近這一年做的事情跟今年要做的事，當然委員對我們的期待我們責無旁貸，要好好再做努力。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，我們有一個打詐專法要出來，4月會不會出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個專法不是我們金管會，是……"],["李委員彥秀：不然我們今天專案報告是報告假的？大家都有關係啊！不是跨部會的合作嗎？這個打詐專法如果沒有跨部會的合作也沒有用啊！"],["李副署長西河：是，打詐專法在行政院由羅政委來整合各部會，現在由我們內政部來主政。"],["李委員彥秀：4月會不會出來？"],["李副署長西河：最近有密集地在3月份跟4月初有5次會議，我們的草案訂出來……"],["李委員彥秀：這個會期會不會完成三讀？有沒有目標？"],["李副署長西河：我們現在預定4月份要提出來，我們跨部會的草案擬訂有預定在4月份儘速把它定稿。"],["李委員彥秀：行政院有沒有目標，在這個會期要完成三讀？你只要回答有或沒有，你回答我，不要浪費我的時間。"],["李副署長西河：我們在努力當中，我們在努力當中。"],["李委員彥秀：啊？"],["李副署長西河：我們在努力，很快速，我們現在在……"],["李委員彥秀：每天有那麼多受害人被詐騙耶！"],["李副署長西河：是。"],["李委員彥秀：那這個案子在兩個政府、兩個總統交接的過程，賴清德知不知道這件事情？在過渡時期，他有沒有交代在這個會期要通過，還是等520之後再通過？"],["李副署長西河：我們跨部會的……"],["李委員彥秀：你的目標是什麼？"],["李副署長西河：我們很積極地、很急地在草擬打詐專法這個草案。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有日期？沒有目標？"],["李副署長西河：我們在開會的時候，預定到4月份要提出來。"],["李委員彥秀：4月份提出來，也不知道這個會期會不會通過。","好，我要問一下LINE@，我剛剛上網查了，這些是詐騙帳號，你們都有公布，上面才90個人看而已。現在詐騙透過投資或透過LINE的，上次我問過，主委也知道，透過Google或Meta，所以我們現在都有實名制，臉書也有實名制，現在LINE的部分怎麼處理？這是我第一個問題。第二，這些詐騙的LINE ID才90個人看耶！現在透過LINE的投資詐騙也很氾濫，你們公布這些帳號才90個人看，後面有什麼具體的作為嗎？可能有什麼具體的作為嗎？"],["黃副局長壬聰：有關觀看人數過少的部分，我們會再加強來做宣導。另外，在查詢的部分，我們在165的LINE的app裡面可以供民眾來查詢，這是另外一個可以查詢的管道，以上。"],["李委員彥秀：因為我們之前都有要求實名制，包括Google，包括臉書，包括Meta，我們都有慢慢要求實名制，至於LINE的部分怎麼去跟總公司溝通，減少這些詐騙的LINE ID，我覺得是目標。","最後一個，因為現在有關於虛擬貨幣的詐騙行為非常多，但是在偵辦的過程當中，很多檢察官也好，很多檢察事務官、調查官也好，對於這種新興的詐騙，因為我們過去辦的都是傳統的案子，他們對於這種新興的可能不是那麼清楚，所以才造成之前有一個個案被移送了7次，這個犯罪人沒有被處分，我看到這個新聞我是非常訝異，所以我認為未來在辦案人員、調查人員裡面，應該要有更多人拿到一些證照來當主力來辦案，那這些有拿證照的，我覺得也應該給一些獎勵，譬如說分案的案子他可以少一點，鼓勵大家多去拿證照。對於這些新興金融犯罪，我們希望鼓勵他們多拿一些證照，同時要獎勵他們，我們可不可以給他們分案分少一點，或者員警要有一些績效跟獎勵？我覺得這樣才有機會在目前詐騙氾濫的狀況之下，員警接這些案子，他才有機會用力去查，否則現在全部都抓不到頭，抓到的都是下游的車手。","下游的車手就跟免洗筷一樣，對於犯罪首腦來講，對於那些集團來講是找到斷點，反正詐騙車手隨時可以找新的人來，但是詐騙集團永遠抓不到上層的首腦，這是現在詐騙犯罪最大的問題，你們同意我的說法嗎？所以無論是證照也好，證照鼓勵也好，在內部調查官、檢察官證照鼓勵也好，金管會可以給更多的授課，你們不要去講說以前都有授課，你們那些授課其實都是簽個到就走人了。"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官的部分，事實上，我們這個金融證照制度已經行之多年了，但是金融證照制度的課程內容當然會隨著委員報告的，就是……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得要鼓勵多一點的人去拿這些金融證照，你的獎勵同時也要有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：對，但是委員提到減免分案的部分……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到每一個地檢署內部事務的分配問題，由地檢署的檢察長去決定他內部事務該減或不減，授權由地檢署檢察長因地制宜。"],["李委員彥秀：我最後一個要求，再30秒，對於犯罪上游這些人，如果抓到車手，有沒有可能比照毒品危害防制條例，如果他供出上游，在刑度上我們可能給一些寬鬆的刑度？這樣我們才有機會抓到上游的人，不然上游的人全部都抓不到，你抓一大堆下面的車手，他被當成免洗筷，有什麼用？"],["黃次長謀信：我們除了給球棒打擊之外，我們也給胡蘿蔔，事實上，這個概念我們有引進到打詐專法的修法裡面，在減輕其刑的部分，我們有類似的……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我希望打詐專法趕快出來，這個會期趕快出來，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員"],["主席：接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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的很急的也在在草擬這個草案這個打詐專法這個草案沒有日期沒有目標?我們一定我們在Cover說一定到4月份要提出來了4月份提出來那也不知道這個會計會不會通過好我要提那我要問一下Liant"},{"start":565.509,"end":571.721,"text":"我剛剛上網查了這些是詐騙帳號你們都有公佈上面才90個人看而已"},{"start":574.213,"end":597.952,"text":"現在透過詐騙就是投資啊或又透過LINE的上次我問過主委也知道透過Google或Meta我們現在都有實名制那臉書也有實名制現在LINE的部分怎麼處理第一個是我的問題第二這些詐騙的LINE的ID才90個人看欸"},{"start":599.853,"end":612.59,"text":"現在透過LINE的投資詐騙也很氾濫耶那你們公布這些帳號才90個人看後面有什麼具體的作為嗎?可能有什麼具體的作為嗎?"},{"start":616.249,"end":642.143,"text":"關於觀看人數過少的部分我們會再加強來做宣導然後另外如果查詢的部分我們在165的LINE的APP裡面可以公民眾來查詢這個是另外一個可以查詢的管道以上我覺得因為我們之前都有要求實名制包括Google包括臉書包括Meta我們都有慢慢要求實名制至於LINE的部分"},{"start":643.365,"end":671.061,"text":"怎麼去跟總公司溝通減少這些詐騙的LINE的ID我覺得是目標然後另外我最後一個因為現在我們有關於虛擬貨幣的詐騙行為非常多但是在偵辦的過程當中我們很多檢察官也好很多檢察事務官、調查官也好對於這種新興的詐騙因為我們過去辦的都是傳統的案子對於這種新興的可能"},{"start":672.022,"end":673.684,"text":"所以我鼓勵我認為未來我們的辦案人員、調查人員裡面應該要有更多的譬如說要有拿到一些證照來當主力來辦案"},{"start":693.283,"end":710.374,"text":"那這些有拿證照我覺得也應該給一些獎勵比如說分案的案子他可以少一點鼓勵大家多去拿這些證照對於這些金融犯罪新興金融犯罪我們希望鼓勵他們多拿一些證照那同時我們要獎勵他們是我們可不可以"},{"start":710.754,"end":710.894,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":725.595,"end":746.502,"text":"否則我們現在全部都抓不到頭抓到的都是下游的車手下游的車手就跟免洗筷一樣對於犯罪首腦來講那些集團來講找到斷點反正詐騙車手隨時都還可以找新的人來但是詐騙集團這些首腦永遠抓不到上層這是現在詐騙犯罪最大的問題你們同意我的說法嗎"},{"start":748.007,"end":761.249,"text":"所以無論證照也好、證照鼓勵也好在內部調查官、檢察官證照鼓勵也好金管會可以給更多的授課你們不要去講說以前授課我們都有授課你們那些授課其實都是簽個到就走人的"},{"start":762.174,"end":788.91,"text":"根文報告檢察官的部分事實上我們這個金融證照制度已經行之多年了但進到制度的課程內容當然會隨著這個委員報告的就是我覺得要鼓勵多一點人對於金融證照去拿這些證照那你的獎勵同時也要有對那委員提到的減免這個分案的部分這涉及到每一個地檢署內部事務的分配問題由地檢署的檢察長去決定那內部事務該減或不減授權由地檢署檢察長因地制宜"},{"start":789.15,"end":810.393,"text":"然後對於犯罪我最後一個要求30秒對於犯罪上游這些人如果抓到車手我們有沒有可能比照這個毒品的危害防治條例如果他供出上游在刑度上我們可能給一些寬鬆的刑度那這樣我們才有機會抓到上游的人上游的人全部都抓不到你抓一到下面的車手他把他當免洗塊有什麼用"},{"start":811.454,"end":811.754,"text":"接下來請謝一鳳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b8257468c240930562818f12f8d996ddcf8ba9b0039caa7a6711898d07e4142ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:10:36 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12:16:10","影片長度":"00:05:34","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「個人資料保護委員會組織籌設及相關配套措施」公聽會）","meet":{"sessionPeriod":1,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"term":11,"id":"公聽會-2024032124","type":"公聽會"},"date":"2024-03-25","end_time":"2024-03-25T12:16:10+08:00","type":"Clip","duration":334,"start_time":"2024-03-25T12:10:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.35034375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.27971875,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.82471875,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.88721875,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":211.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.14971875,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.35909375,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.19846875,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.81846875,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.97221875,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.14909375,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.47346875,"end":322.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.35159375,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.45221875000004,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.88221875000005,"end":333.36284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":21.107,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們列席的所有的學者專家列席的官員大家午安從2022年我們憲法法庭去做出這樣的一個表示出來以後整個個人資料保護這個欠缺的整個獨立監督的一個機關這當然對我們個人的一個資訊隕石權的保障"},{"start":25.351,"end":25.992,"text":"公聽委員：莊瑞雄"},{"start":54.091,"end":61.013,"text":"逐漸要去步入有其專責的一個機構這個我相信社會大眾談到這個議題是一定跟我一樣相同的一個感觸我們從很多的報章媒體我們所看到的常常披露的會頻頻上媒體版面的這常常都是我們的個資兩千多萬人的個資就被這樣的一個公開不管是身份字號"},{"start":78.138,"end":99.23,"text":"姓名、家族、成員、戶籍及兵役都會造成人心惶惶未來各支會負責做出各支法的修法與組織法相關討論裡面我今天聽了一下我看大家著墨的重點其實大家都抓到重點了你到底是不是有足夠的獨立性與資源來監督私部門與公部門這是外界矚目的一個事項"},{"start":104.893,"end":119.259,"text":"在我們台灣,我們法令有所缺漏的時候,我們沒辦法顧及別人的國家,別人到底是怎樣我看剛那麼多專家裡面大家也提出來的,很多歐盟的一些國家,主攻我們來借鏡"},{"start":121.62,"end":137.694,"text":"這畢竟還是別人的一個經驗我看到他們在 歐盟他們在1995年的時候施行要求各國去訂立國人的一個資料的一個保護法規那你礙於說整個資料管控者對當事人各自掌控如果越來越強大"},{"start":138.835,"end":138.895,"text":"公聽會：莊瑞雄"},{"start":154.934,"end":176.181,"text":"數位市場底下個人資料運用行為提供一個比較明確的規範我倒要列舉一個來跟大家共同一個分享就是說你歐盟在一般資料保護規則當中他就科與資料掌控者將個人資料的一個侵害事故這個通報剛剛隨著專家提到的通報的一個監管機關跟通知當事人的義務他在72個小時裡面就要去通報"},{"start":178.402,"end":178.662,"text":"公聽會：莊瑞雄：莊瑞雄：莊瑞雄"},{"start":195.101,"end":211.424,"text":"當事人是這樣所以通報程序上非公務機關按照通法第27條授權是各主管機關去辦理他的通報程序那公務機關的通告單位是根據資通安全管理法通報上級跟監督主管機關行政院換句話來講就你個人資料如果去外洩的話公務機關跟分務機關的通報機制你根本就沒有去一個統一的規範跟統一的主管機關的一個權責"},{"start":224.586,"end":225.227,"text":"事善在各個局處"},{"start":254.566,"end":263.193,"text":"沒有 我們自己沒有的參考別的國家先進的一個立法國發會 你們也是在2019年委託相關的機關機構去做翻譯了啦現在也應該要出爐了啦我個人倒希望說 我們各自會在籌備期間對於歐盟這一些 其他先進國家的這一些立法例 一般資料的一個保護規則再去做比較八"},{"start":279.878,"end":285.121,"text":"可以把這一些適用到我們國內裡面來的做更詳細的一個規範以備我們整個各自會成立以後我們可以快速的來跟進相關的一個規範那你的時間很快喔很快喔你看看你2025你明年8月前你就要去創設你今年籌備書就起來了嘛"},{"start":303.59,"end":322.921,"text":"所以憲法法庭這樣的一個宣示其實是一大進步我們也希望行政部門這個地方加把勁立法部門大家盡量盡量大家全力來把整個法制來做一個完備這個是對一個國家一個進步的一個指標以上 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員的發言接下來有請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":331.394,"end":331.798,"text":"陳俊宇陳議員委員"}]}},{"id":"150375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bd0dd74dce529aa44e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a61ee19b822c4e652d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:02:24 - 12:09:49","影片長度":"00:07:25","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":445,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:09:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:02:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":945,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時2分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好，我比較關心勞保外面的數字，大家很擔心的一點，關於2028年勞保會破產，假如都按照現況走向，勞保的潛在負債高達12兆元之多，這兩個數字你要不要回應一下？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：2028年勞保會破產，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：2028年勞保基金用罄的說法是根據上一次的精算報告，精算報告是每三年精算一次，今年還會再精算，到年底才會知道大概實際的狀況會是怎樣，這都是一些參考，讓我們面對勞保財務的問題看怎麼樣處理，而潛藏的負債也是根據現在相關的資料……"],["賴委員士葆：這兩個數字都對吧？這兩個都是已經講過好幾次的數字了……"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["賴委員士葆：都講過好幾次了，所以這個數字是對的，對不對？請問政府要撥補給勞保多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：到目前為止一共2,670億元。"],["賴委員士葆：去年的撥補金額是多少？"],["許部長銘春：去年是550億元。"],["賴委員士葆：500多億元嘛！"],["許部長銘春：550億元，公務預算是450億元，特別預算是100億元，所以去年是550億元；今年的公務預算是1,200億元，特別預算是100億元，所以今年是1,300億元；從109年到現在，五年以來撥補總編列的預算是2,670億元。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣可以撐多久？我就問你一個比較白話的問題，政府要每年撥補勞保多少錢才能讓勞保不會在2028年破產？這樣比較簡單。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：沒辦法計算？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果我們……"],["賴委員士葆：請按照現在來講。"],["許部長銘春：如果按照今年的撥補預算1,300億元而言，撥補1,300億元，可以到122年。"],["賴委員士葆：就到2023年而已？"],["許部長銘春：不是。"],["賴委員士葆：112年是2023年。"],["許部長銘春：122年。"],["賴委員士葆：122年就是2033年，所以能再拖五年，確定喔？今天這個是全國都在看的數字，所以每年要給你撥補多少？問你這個數字，你一直沒有回答我，希望每年能撥補多少？最少有500億元？最好是1,000億元？更好是2,000億元？你不這樣說更快！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為勞保的撥補對財務的穩定是有幫助的，如果政府的財政許可，能夠多撥補，我想會讓勞工更安心。"],["賴委員士葆：你心裡總要有數字嘛！你身為勞動部的部長，應該說最少政府每年應該撥補多少金額的預算，上一屆我們就曾計算過……"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["賴委員士葆：其實每年給你們1,000億元可能都還不夠，所以給你們500億元，就是拖延一下而已。"],["許部長銘春：我之前也說過，如果財政許可，至少要不低於1,000億元啦！如果能夠像……"],["賴委員士葆：至少要1,000億元啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，至少要1,000億元啦！"],["賴委員士葆：本席已經做球給你，你還不敢說，請你大聲說出來，最少要1,000億元。陳建仁院長主持年金改革時說勞保要一起改，結果勞保到現在還是不敢改革，就算給你們1,000億元還是不夠，基金都快破產了，怎麼敢改革呢？所以這一塊根本就不敢改，只好拚命找公教人員開刀，結果就變成這樣。第二個，本席想請問你，下一次工資調漲是什麼時候？下一次審議會什麼時候召開？"],["許部長銘春：最低工資嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["許部長銘春：今年第三季，通常都是七、八、九這三個月。"],["賴委員士葆：本席看了相關資料，你們說要把CPI納入考慮，本席覺得這樣還不夠。"],["許部長銘春：CPI是法定項目，這是大院通過的應參採數據，一定要考慮CPI，其他得參採的數據還有10項。"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！最後還是由你們決定，你們心裡應該有個數字……"],["許部長銘春：委員，我們最低工資審議會是合議制，由勞資政學的委員一起開會決定。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你們要有立場啊！你們代表勞工啊！請問你，現在勞工的平均薪資是多少？"],["許部長銘春：全國平均嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對，全國。"],["許部長銘春：大概是四萬多元。"],["賴委員士葆：剛才說58,000元，現在說四萬多元。多少？"],["許部長銘春：主計總處的數字有一些base不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你要背起來，隨時有人會問你這個數字。"],["許部長銘春：我記得經常性的是四萬多元啦……"],["賴委員士葆：一般經常性的是包括獎金等等……"],["許部長銘春：如果加上這些，平均大概是五萬八千多元。"],["賴委員士葆：你確定？我跟你講，三分之二的勞工薪資是低於平均薪資的，這是第一個要告訴你的數字。第二個數字，一般來說，要看這個國家、社會對勞工照顧到什麼程度，有一個指標很重要，就是資本家、企業賺的錢分多少給勞工，臺灣這幾年平均45%，就是給勞工的部分是45%，歐盟、日本、韓國都超過50%。","許部長，本席發言的時間到了，請你簡短回答，你身為勞動部部長，如何爭取讓企業賺的錢多撥一點給勞工？這比什麼都重要。本席剛才說了，就全世界排名來看，我們的排名靠後，每賺10元，給勞工的部分不到5元，只有4.5元，歐盟超過50%，美國當然不用說，美國、日本、韓國都是超過50%。我們低於50%，這是一個很重要的指標，部長一定要想辦法捍衛我們勞工的薪資……"],["許部長銘春：是，一定。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣修最低工資法才有意義，否則的話，有的薪水這麼高，有的這麼低，平均起來很高，事實上，你們可以去問問平均領多少，有三分之二的勞工都領不到平均薪資，這個數字給你，請你謹記在心。"],["許部長銘春：好的，是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","做以下宣告，我們中午不休息，因為後面還有很多委員要發言。部長，剛才在質詢台上來不及說明的，請會後再向委員說明。"],["許部長銘春：好的。"],["主席：大家不用客氣，可以用餐。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.95409375,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.9790937500000005,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.447218750000001,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.269718750000003,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.32784375,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.62721875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.08159375,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.984093750000003,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.469093750000003,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.35034375,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.877218750000004,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.290343750000005,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43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報告委我們當然勞保的撥補我們希望就是因為他的撥補是對財務的穩定是有幫助的啦如果說政府的財政許可能夠多撥補我想會讓勞工更安心啊你心裡總要有數字嘛你這個身為勞動部的部長"},{"start":200.37,"end":208.518,"text":"你應該說我最少政府應該給我每年多少以前我們就算過上一屆我們就算過其實每年給你1000億可能都要不夠"},{"start":210.66,"end":211.18,"text":"陳建仁院長主持年輕改革"},{"start":239.79,"end":242.233,"text":"二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":260.891,"end":273.908,"text":"審議會什麼時候開?下一次最低工資是不是?今年的第三季第三季喔通常我們就是7、8、9這三個月我看了一下這個相關的資料你們說要把CPA納入來考慮"},{"start":275.61,"end":286.405,"text":"CPI是法定的喔我們大院通過的就是說因採採的數據一定要考慮CPI那其他得採採的數據還有10項這些最後還是你們決定"},{"start":292.453,"end":306.144,"text":"應該先有個數字出來委員 那個和 那我們最低公司審議會是一個合一制啦就勞資政協的委員但是你要有個立場啊 你代表勞工啊你現在講說 請問一下 勞工現在平均薪資多少勞工的平均薪資多少平均啊 你說全國的 剛剛大概4萬多啊5萬8 現在講4萬多"},{"start":320.34,"end":333.293,"text":"主計處的數字有一些背詞不太一樣你要背起來這個數字經常信的是4萬多啦一般那種經常信的是包括一些的獎金包括大概5萬8千多啦"},{"start":336.618,"end":363.689,"text":"平均啊我跟你講三分之二的勞工是低於平均薪資的第一個數字告訴你第二個數字我要告訴你一般來講說這個國家這個社會我們對勞工到底照顧到什麼程度有一個指標很重要就企業賺的錢分多少給資本家多少給勞工"},{"start":365.742,"end":368.845,"text":"台灣呢這幾年平均45%就是給勞工的45%歐盟都超過50%日本超過50%韓國超過50%許部長我的時間到囉這個我就請你很簡短的講你身為勞動部的部長你如何的爭取"},{"start":390.694,"end":401.619,"text":"讓企業賺的錢多一點給勞工這個比什麼都重要我剛剛講了全世界大家在排我們是排在後面的我們賺的錢賺10塊錢給勞工不到5塊錢只有4塊半"},{"start":406.642,"end":427.083,"text":"歐盟都超過50%的美國當然不用講美國、日本、韓國都是超過50%我們低於50%這是一個很重要的指標我覺得部長你一定要想辦法是捍衛我們勞工的薪資你這樣子的話最低工資法修起來才有意義否則的話"},{"start":428.445,"end":429.125,"text":"二、處理中華民國111例"}]}},{"id":"150374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bdb2ee359e61df845cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a65fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:57:45 - 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對不對香港最多嘛77.9萬人第二名是日本第三名是韓國嘛 對不對所以你現在有提到一個大家會講是說奇怪怎麼會突然我們的交通部的大家長觀光業的大家長我們的王國才部長居然講是說香港叫大家不要去了"},{"start":244.755,"end":248.878,"text":"那一天在立法院問我是說香港基本法23條有類似怎麼樣的行為問我什麼狀況我是說如果有這些行為有可能處"},{"start":271.016,"end":271.617,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":281.598,"end":307.074,"text":"我們要不要發旅遊信息?現在還不到啊,但是因為他已經講很清楚了所以說這是不是一個這是不是一個失言啊?不是是部長我講很清楚喔我現在很清楚不是國人看到以及媒體看到還有大家看到會覺得是說部長居然叫大家不要去香港但是香港明明就是我們現在2023年來台旅客的第一名會不會是雙重標準?有促華的可能的行為"},{"start":307.794,"end":321.531,"text":"那這樣子是不是全到世界各國你也要講說每一個國家有不同的法令只要有處罰的可能你都要提醒大家到新加坡有可能他們的地鐵不能吃口香糖所以說有處罰的可能"},{"start":322.913,"end":351.092,"text":"我們提醒大家到其他國家有其他國家的風土民情不同的考量所以你要提醒大家這是政治凌駕專業我們的觀光現在已經非常的辛苦部長我必須再一次的為觀光業來請命觀光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸在過去疫情來的時候真的都是叫苦連天現在好不容易撐過疫情了但是我們現在的觀光業"},{"start":353.213,"end":380.016,"text":"還在苦等我們的政府好好的鼓勵的時候現在我們的部長又講這樣的話會不會造成雪上加霜我已經解釋過會不會讓大家誤解所以其實本席現在是想要給你一個機會讓你去講說你那一天是失言其實不是這麼一回事我講很清楚有觸法的行為我希望他不要去那這樣子來本席直接問你一句你是不是鼓勵國人正常的旅遊交流不管是去香港不管是去世界國家"},{"start":380.756,"end":404.681,"text":"對,如果沒有處法基本有23條不是,國人當然不會平白無辜到任何地方去處當地的法令嘛現在本席要問的是說你是不是鼓勵正常教育還有就是不要讓香港的朋友誤會我們不鼓勵我們台灣的旅客去香港我們也歡迎香港朋友來台灣是,我是正面,我就是這樣,是,就是給你講一遍"},{"start":407.898,"end":431.433,"text":"不管是兩岸或是港澳我都歡迎互相往來那剛才談到了我上次談到不要去是說有處罰的可能你不能去突然被抓去了所以我是說這種最好不要去我建議是這樣是處處他的處抵觸他的這個基本法是專業歸專業有一些政治意識形態立場我一直在這個委員會我常常強調"},{"start":432.233,"end":432.913,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"150373","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b6d34f8157f1870a2cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a60cd0b6bef2137dcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:52:54 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對不對但這麼多年過去花東快還在可行性評估啊有沒有發現這個速度會不會就已經是個落差呢"},{"start":215.572,"end":217.353,"text":"所以為什麼講說有個建設性的一個角度可以給部長參考啦?"},{"start":228.72,"end":253.066,"text":"花東快的條例其實你不如當作是一個對花東快對政府的一個支持後盾跟鼓勵因為我們有立法作為後盾甚至也幫你思考裁員事實上就是希望說今天不要又是一拖二拖三拖四拖讓我們花東的民眾等不到一個安全回家的路阿那更重要最後一點我還是做一點提醒阿"},{"start":253.906,"end":253.926,"text":"好 謝謝﹖"}]}},{"id":"150372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b5f0d1ab95cc746e5cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6142e1c090ea04b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:47:06 - 11:52:39","影片長度":"00:05:33","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":333,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:52:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:47:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":721,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時47分）謝謝主席，我請王國材部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，最近我們全國最關心的大概就是電價要漲的話題。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我身為臺北市的區域立委，在這邊要幫臺北市請命。比如說去年電價也調整，臺北市捷運營運成本就增加了，多支出3億以上，今年的漲幅愈高、更高了，所以臺北捷運增加的成本會達到5.6億。9月份搞不好還會再漲電價，不曉得到時候以臺北捷運來說，成本還會增加多少。其實不只臺北市捷運，包含臺中捷運、高雄捷運、桃捷、高鐵、臺鐵在內，事實上這些大眾運輸全部都因為電價的大幅調升而使他們的營運成本大幅提高，所以我在這邊還是要幫北捷請命。雖然我知道前兩天有人問院長時，院長說好像不會凍漲或補貼這些城市捷運，但我想請問部長，到目前為止，關於大眾運輸的部分是不是有可能凍漲或補貼票價？"],["王部長國材：我跟王委員報告：如果─我是說假設性議題，如果臺北捷運最後調高票價，TPASS仍是完全差價補貼啦！這個意思是說，所造成的結果是我們給臺北市捷運公司的補貼款更多。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是沒有使用TPASS的人呢？並不是所有的人都使用TPASS啊！"],["王部長國材：對，所以我的意思是現在臺北市大概已經有八十幾萬人都使用TPASS，如果在這種狀況下，用TPASS就完全不會受影響，補貼的部分就用TPASS……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你只補貼TPASS，其他不補貼？我還是希望能夠採取凍漲的方式。你只不過是左口袋與右口袋的分別，但是如果凍漲的話，就能使所有捷運族都受惠。事實上，其他捷運也並不是都有TPASS。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我要請教一點比較重要的。院長說高鐵不會漲，是不是？"],["王部長國材：高鐵……是因為它還沒有提出來啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：高鐵即將提出來，因為按照你們交通部跟高鐵的合約，是與物價指數連動，事實上，它今年是準備要調漲的。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，在高鐵叫作核定基本費率，但一般來說，高鐵過去提過基本費率調升……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的時間非常有限，我只請問……"],["王部長國材：票價不一定會漲。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不一定會漲，但是可能會漲？"],["王部長國材：就看它分析的結果。"],["王委員鴻薇：按照現在的物價指數，已經超過5%了，所以他們現在已經在計算，而且聽說照這樣算起來，北高部分最高可能增加230塊。當然到你們這邊時也許不會核定給他們這麼多。"],["王部長國材：是，票價不會核定那麼高。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以仍然有漲價的可能跟空間？"],["王部長國材：先由他們提出來啦！我是覺得高鐵公司……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以不代表高鐵絕對不會漲。","另外是公路客運部分，公路客運業者也跟你們申請，漲幅大概是7%到23%。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：公路客運部分也完全不會漲嗎？"],["王部長國材：對於公路客運，我們覺得業者現在面臨經營困境，所以我個人覺得可以讓它漲。但是我們現在的處理方式，第一個，短途用TPASS，中長途的部分，我們則部分補貼給它，所以在調漲部分就可以漲少一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：漲少一點？所以他們仍然可能漲？若不讓他們漲，最後倒楣的就是偏遠地區。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：業者一定把不賺錢，甚至虧損的砍掉。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以對於偏遠地區民眾，事實上不是間接受害，而是直接受害。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這樣看起來，高鐵仍然有可能漲價，公路客運部分也有可能漲價，只是你們會再衡酌？"],["王部長國材：再作部分補貼，讓票價不要漲太多。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。","我在最後仍然要請命，如果今天要達到2050淨零排放，更不要說針對電動車等等……賴總統馬上就要上任啦！他在選前說過他在2030年前要怎麼推動電動車、要怎麼讓電動車產業成為我們下一個明星產業等等，可是現在大家都緊張啦！因為馬上就要調整電價，大幅調整電價，而且今年還不排除可能二度調整電價，在這樣的狀況之下，影響層面真的非常、非常廣。但是在大眾運輸部分，我認為你們要採取凍漲或補貼的方式，否則哪有政府一方面要作淨零排碳，另一方面又讓大眾運輸經營得這麼困難？這完全背道而馳，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，我們朝比較……"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得不要像院長那樣一口回絕。我覺得他是不懂，你知道嗎？他真的不懂。他馬上就要下臺，可是他不曉得這個影響層面會有多廣。以上，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","下一位……"],["高金委員素梅：主席，我跟羅智強委員換一下時間，因為他要趕到其他地方。"],["主席：好。","麻煩羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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外我要請教一個比較重要的院長說高鐵不會漲是不是"},{"start":152.405,"end":163.012,"text":"高鐵即將提出來因為按照你們交通部跟高鐵的合約按照物價指數聯動事實上他今年是要準備調漲的"},{"start":166.021,"end":180.598,"text":"他叫做核電基本費率但是我們一般比如說過去高鐵提過基本費因為我的時間非常有限票價不一定會漲所以不一定會漲但是可能會漲按照因為他現在的物價指數因為他已經超過5%了"},{"start":184.042,"end":209.963,"text":"所以他們現在已經在計算而且說這樣算起來北高的部分可能最高最高高可以增加到230塊當然也許合定到你們這邊也許不會合定給他們票價不會合定那麼高所以仍然有漲價的可能跟空間先他提出來啦因為我是覺得高鐵工資所以高鐵不代表絕對不會漲另外公務客運的部分公務客運業者也跟你們申請大概是78到23%"},{"start":212.225,"end":214.248,"text":"公路客運的部分也完全不會漲嗎"},{"start":227.188,"end":247.959,"text":"中長途的部分我們做部分的補貼給他所以他對於長的部分就可以長少一點長少一點所以他們仍然可能因為你不讓他長最後倒楣的就是偏遠地區他一定把不賺錢甚至虧損的就把它砍掉所以對於偏遠地區的民眾事實上他就是不是間接受害他直接受害"},{"start":249.019,"end":257.167,"text":"所以這樣看起來高鐵仍然有可能漲價公路客運的部分也有可能漲價只是你們會再去再做客運的補貼讓那個票價不要漲太多"},{"start":261.52,"end":272.108,"text":"我在最後仍然是去請命如果今天我們要達到2050的淨零排放更不要說像我們電動車那個賴總統馬上就要上任啊他當時在選前說他在2030年要怎麼樣推動電動車要怎麼樣把電動車產業電動車產業成為我們下一個什麼明星產業等等可是現在大家都在剉啦"},{"start":285.678,"end":309.209,"text":"因為你馬上調整電價大幅調整電價而且還不排除今年還可能二度調整電價在這樣的狀況之下其實真的影響的層面非常非常廣但是針對大眾捷運的部分大眾運輸的部分我認為你們要採取動漲或補貼的方式所以這話哪裡說政府政府今天要做淨零排檔但是另外一方面又讓大眾運輸他們經營的這麼困難這完全背道而馳好不好"},{"start":313.451,"end":313.672,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]}},{"id":"150371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b710de70a7f3587168506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6bcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:52:14 - 12:06:19","影片長度":"00:14:05","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":845,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:06:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:52:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時52分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好。主席，可否請朱澤民主計長？然後第二階段再請黃天牧主委、國家通訊委員會翁副主委、法務部黃次長、警政署李副署長及數發部的李政次？首先先請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主計長你好。現在人民感覺都很痛苦，一個就是萬物齊漲，電價飆漲，為什麼政府要在這個關鍵時刻還帶頭來漲價？主計長，有沒有什麼方法可以讓電價不要漲？就像肝和胃有連帶關係，你電價一漲，哇！那不得了！全面性地崩潰、全面性地大漲，到時候政府的威信，還有人民對政府的期待，如果因為生活不下去，萬物飆漲，那這個過錯主計長要扛嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：委員的敘述跟實際的資料有一點出入，像我們CPI 111年是上升2.95%，去年是上升2.45%，有在下跌。央行最近的估計是2.16%，所以它的漲幅是在往下的，跟委員報告一下。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你的意思就是說電價漲……"],["朱主計長澤民：它是在往下。"],["羅委員明才：所以物價不會漲？還是沒什麼關係，不痛不癢？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！電價漲，物價當然會漲，因為它有一定的權數，民生用電的權數是占1.2個百分點，所以電價漲，全部都有影響，可是我們一方面也要考慮到台電的成本。"],["羅委員明才：不是，台電是你們應該要檢討的，今年你又要補助它多少？過去累計的補助已經4,000億元了，我請問主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：今年是補……"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你快要離開了，人將要離去……"],["朱主計長澤民：我還沒有要離開，你就說我要離開了，讓我很鬱卒。"],["羅委員明才：不是，你不是說你考慮不做了嗎？人將離開，其言必善。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是要死亡了才會這麼講。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，我是說職務上。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不會死亡，我會……"],["羅委員明才：好，你繼續生存。"],["朱主計長澤民：我有做身體檢查，身體很好，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：所以你在這個時間更應該其言以善，站在為人民爭取福利的立場，你要多講一些好的事情，為人民來把關嘛！如果這一次台電開始飆漲，那我問你，你明年要不要補助？後年呢？大後年怎麼辦？年年都補助，出的還是老百姓的納稅錢啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：因為要反映電價的成本，如果不反映成本的話，台電的虧損是很嚴重的，如果台電的淨值變成負的，按照公司法，它必須解散，那個是很……"],["羅委員明才：那你執政黨就要負起責任嘛！你一直補助，其實我反對啦！為什麼要拿我的血汗錢去補助台電？"],["朱主計長澤民：委員反對補助的話，電價就應該要上漲啊！"],["羅委員明才：我們間接來懲罰人民，請問主計長，人民犯了什麼錯？"],["朱主計長澤民：人民沒有犯錯。"],["羅委員明才：每次都要從人民身上揩油，那你說……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有揩油，跟其他國家比較，我們電費的上漲是比較低的，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：電價比較低，新加坡有沒有漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：有！"],["羅委員明才：日本有沒有漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：有！比我們高。"],["羅委員明才：大家都漲，新加坡的薪水已經漲2、3倍了，請問臺灣人民的薪水漲多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們的基本工資跟公務人員都有調薪帶動上漲，而且我們的經濟成長率最近幾年是比新加坡高的。"],["羅委員明才：所以主計長，你覺得臺灣民眾薪水上漲，你的說法是說臺灣老百姓都同意嗎？開心嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：每個人都不會對自己的薪水同意的。"],["羅委員明才：對，看到臺灣跟新加坡相比，臺灣人民的心裡是在淌血的啊！為什麼人家薪水漲了2、3倍，然後你把電價拿A跟B胡亂湊，湊來湊去，「竹篙鬥菜刀」。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，根據最近公布的世界幸福指數，臺灣還在滿前面的。"],["羅委員明才：有多幸福？"],["朱主計長澤民：我要去查一下資料。"],["羅委員明才：那你就不要破壞幸福的原狀啊！所有的物價飆漲了以後，臺灣的痛苦指數飆升，臺灣人民就變得不幸福了啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：的確，通膨加上失業率會讓痛苦指數增加，可是其他國家比我們更高。"],["羅委員明才：好啦！主計長，因為時間關係，我問你一個考古題，你應該會答對，請問5年前滷肉飯1碗幾塊錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：滷肉飯平均大概40、50元。"],["羅委員明才：好，40、50元。"],["朱主計長澤民：全國的平均，大概也有便宜的，只有……"],["羅委員明才：5、6年前才35元、30元。好，如果電價飆漲，帶動滷肉飯漲到65、70元以上，主計長，怎麼辦？"],["朱主計長澤民：委員，帶動這樣子不大好啦！"],["羅委員明才：或者不要帶動，它就自然地漲上去了。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，小商店它要適當地反映成本，我們完全認同，這是一個市場行為，所以這一次經濟部的方案裡面，對小商店700度以下的只有漲3%。"],["羅委員明才：所以滷肉飯不會漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不講這個，這種推論才是「竹篙鬥菜刀」。"],["羅委員明才：不是，老百姓他擔心的就是我每天吃的雞蛋最近有漲3元，主計長，每公斤漲3元。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為蛋雞最近減少，蛋雞的量減少。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，還有其他啦！計程車以後會不會漲？高鐵會不會漲？捷運會不會漲？你統統都漲的話，民眾怎麼辦？人民會受不了啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，不要這樣子嚇大家說這個也會漲那個也會漲，這個就是央行總裁怕的地方，就是預期心理。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，本席在這裡嚴重地警告，電價如果飆漲10%以上，我在這裡保證，萬物一定會皆漲！如果漲的話，主計長，你要不要負責？"],["朱主計長澤民：那是一個市場現象，而且是要反映成本，我主計總處是做一些統計、做一些預測，輪到我負責？好像我不是經濟部做決策的單位。"],["羅委員明才：如果政府沒有妥善地照顧老百姓的生活，生活的物價一味只是漲、漲、漲，那我們要這樣的政府幹什麼呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：你不讓它漲，那些小商店、那些產業也會有問題的，那些產業如果不敷成本，它會倒閉耶！有些人會失業耶！甚至物資供應會減少，那個問題會更大，所以經濟部就要平衡供需的情況，做這個措施。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你講得很好，那我們全民就相信你，你的意思就是不會出狀況，可是如果出狀況的話，你記得本席今天跟你提醒的話。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，政府沒有出狀況，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：接下來請第二輪的相關首長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委好。"],["羅委員明才：主委你好。臺灣的詐騙何其多，詐騙在臺灣天天有，民眾現在最厭惡的，第一個就是物價飆漲，第二個就是詐騙何其多。主委，在你周邊的幾位首長可以說是身懷絕技，而且都是學有專精，那麼今天面對這些單位，你有沒有信心把詐騙全部消滅掉？"],["黃主任委員天牧：詐騙就跟犯罪一樣，百分之百沒有我覺得不見得很容易，但是要讓民眾有感有顯著降低，我想這是我們跨部會一起要努力的地方。"],["羅委員明才：那你有沒有信心把詐騙的比率直線地往下降？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，您太抬舉我了，我不太有資格替行政團隊講話，但是我可以表達今天跨部會大家都很努力。"],["羅委員明才：其實在我們的想法裡面，有那麼多的單位都站出來了，為什麼還會有詐騙？在它的態樣裡面，第一個，大概就是金融的詐騙很多。第二個，我們請內政部好了，請問李副署長，在這個態樣裡面，最多的是哪三樣？"],["李副署長西河：假投資詐欺的發生數占了三成八，財損數差不多六成八，近七成。第二個是網路購物詐欺，就是一頁式廣告這個部分，占28%左右。第三名是解除分期付款，也是占了百分之二十幾。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。所以有部分跟金融有關啦！"],["李副署長西河：到最後他是要走金融來作為洗錢的管道。"],["羅委員明才：好，請數發部。李次長，請問你們成立這幾年總共花了多少錢？你們這幾年的預算總共是多少？"],["李次長懷仁：去年的公務預算是六十幾億，今年是73億。"],["羅委員明才：好，就是一百多億。"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["羅委員明才：包括警政署，包括金管會，包括法務部，加一加好幾百億，結果你們打不贏詐騙集團，你們今天這樣開會以後，可不可以保證、有沒有信心以後詐騙的案件會減少？"],["李次長懷仁：我們報告上面已經有講，我們負責的產業已經都讓它在減少，至於其他的部分，我們一定會跟所有的部會一起聯防，想辦法讓它降低。"],["羅委員明才：你們所有相關機關裡面，有沒有人跟詐騙集團掛勾的？"],["李次長懷仁：我相信沒有，我們一定沒有啦！我相信其他部會也不會有。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有審查過？"],["李次長懷仁：這個可能要問警政，我沒有辦法……"],["羅委員明才：問誰？"],["李次長懷仁：我們沒有資格去審查其他部會。"],["羅委員明才：那有誰可以？李次長，你剛剛不是有講誰嗎？警政是不是？"],["李次長懷仁：因為這個是人事查核或者是背景查核，這個不是數位部的職權可以做的。"],["羅委員明才：好，那要問誰？法務部，你們裡面有沒有跟詐騙集團掛勾的？不然怎麼會有那麼多詐騙呢？"],["黃次長謀信：到目前為止……"],["羅委員明才：你攤開來，每個地方你就截流、截流，管制、管制，就不可能有詐騙了嘛！有詐騙手機出來，你就把它關掉嘛！是不是這樣？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，我們是負責查緝的部分，手機關掉的部分要前端。"],["羅委員明才：那你就是有問題的啊！像今天委員有提到，帳戶每年有50億、70億，我請問一下次長，你覺得一個平常人的帳戶有60億、70億的金額進出，正不正常？"],["黃次長謀信：這不正常，這個涉及……"],["羅委員明才：不正常，那你就把所有不正常的全部都關掉啊！"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到帳戶監理的問題。"],["羅委員明才：那你就監理啊！監理誰來監理？"],["黃次長謀信：監理不是法務部的職責。"],["羅委員明才：是哪一個部？黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：帳戶本來就應該要配合防詐去處理，不過這也要兼顧正常經濟活動，要做適度的判別。"],["羅委員明才：這裡面會出現漏洞就是有共犯結構，今天早上委員在講啊！因為銀行裡面有涉嫌跟外面的詐騙集團掛勾，有沒有這個情況？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有1家，對。"],["羅委員明才：你不能有1家啊！有1家，可能沒抓到的有2家、3家。最後，因為時間關係，大家有沒有信心可以把詐騙全部消滅掉？有信心的請舉手。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們都在努力。"],["羅委員明才：現場都是中華民國大家最信任的高官，我們對你們很敬佩，請問現場幾位官員，對於要把詐騙全部消滅掉有沒有信心？願意努力去做的請舉手。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們會全力以赴。"],["羅委員明才：哇！沒有人舉手，連你們都沒信心了，那一般的老百姓怎麼辦？好，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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60.942,"end":162.103,"text":"你如果說這次﹖"},{"start":187.872,"end":215.685,"text":"臺電開始飆漲,那你明年要不要補助?後年咧?大老年怎麼辦?明年都補助,那除了還是老百姓的納稅錢啊?臺電的虧損是很嚴重的,臺電虧損如果超過,如果他的淨值變成負的話,按照公司法他必須解散。那你執政黨你就要負起責任嘛,你一直補助,其實我反對啦。"},{"start":216.665,"end":241.178,"text":"為什麼要拿我的血汗錢去補助台電?接下來一個懲罰人民,請問主計長人民犯了什麼錯?每次都是要從人民的身上卡油跟其他國家比較我們電費的上漲是比較低的謝謝天價比較低,新加坡有沒有漲?有日本有沒有漲?有,比我們高"},{"start":242.108,"end":242.128,"text":"主計長．"},{"start":268.737,"end":290.909,"text":"你覺得臺灣民眾薪水的上漲,你的說法是說臺灣老百姓都同意嗎?開心嗎?每個人都不會對自己的薪水同意的,對。對,看到臺灣跟新加坡相比啊,臺灣人民的心裡是在淌血的啊。為什麼人家薪水漲了兩三倍,然後你把電價拿A跟B亂亂倒?"},{"start":292.18,"end":294.021,"text":"台灣人民就變得不幸福了啊。"},{"start":318.268,"end":318.408,"text":"五年前盧洛漢議員幾塊錢?"},{"start":339.963,"end":341.424,"text":"五六年前才35塊啦,30塊。好。"},{"start":356.818,"end":358.559,"text":"如果電價飆漲,帶動滷肉飯漲到65、70塊以上,主計長怎麼辦?"},{"start":373.786,"end":398.706,"text":"小商店它要適當的反映成本我們完全認同這個是一個市場行為的所以我們這一次那個經濟部的方案裡面對小商店700度以下的只有漲3%所以爐頭飯不會漲喔我不講這個這樣推論啦才是不是老百姓他擔心的就是我每天吃的雞蛋最近又漲3塊主計長每公斤漲3塊"},{"start":404.851,"end":416.901,"text":"還有其他啦,你這個計程車以後會不會漲?高鐵會不會漲?捷運會不會漲?你通通都漲的話民眾怎麼辦啊?人民會受不了啊?主計長,店價本席在這裡嚴重的警告,店價如果飆漲10%以上喔,我這裡保證啊,所有萬物一定會接漲。"},{"start":433.424,"end":435.126,"text":"如果政府沒有妥善的照顧老百姓的生活"},{"start":457.228,"end":458.049,"text":"主計長你講的很好喔"},{"start":487.064,"end":497.094,"text":"我們全民就相信你你的意思就是不會出狀況可是如果出狀況的話你記得本席今天跟你提醒的話接下來請其他剛剛第二輪的相關首長主委你好那我想台灣就是"},{"start":512.801,"end":540.223,"text":"詐騙何其多?詐騙在台灣天天有。對於民眾現在最厭惡的第一個就是物價飆漲第二個就是詐騙何其多?主委在你周邊的幾位首長都是可以說是身懷絕技而且都是學有專精"},{"start":541.564,"end":549.711,"text":"那麼面對今天所有的這些各單位你有沒有信心把詐騙把它全部消滅掉?那你有沒有信心把這個詐騙的比率直線的往下降?"},{"start":569.52,"end":576.804,"text":"其實在我們這個想法裡面有那麼多的單位都站出來了為什麼還會有詐騙我們在他的太陽裡面第一個大概就是金融的詐騙很多"},{"start":597.455,"end":607.553,"text":"第二個我們請那個內政部好了請問李副署長是在這個太陽裡面最多的是哪三樣"},{"start":608.711,"end":627.603,"text":"假投資詐欺,它發生數佔了差不多3成8,財損數差不多6成8,近7成。第二個是網路購物詐欺,就是夜市廣告這一個部分,這個佔28%左右。另外這第三名是我們的解析付款,也是佔了百分之二十幾。"},{"start":628.507,"end":630.708,"text":"請問你們這幾年成立總共花了多少錢?你們這幾年的預算總共是多少?"},{"start":650.427,"end":675.305,"text":"去年的公務預算是60幾今年是73億好就100多億包括警政署包括金管會包括法務部加一加好幾百億結果你們打不贏那個詐騙集團你們今天開會以後可不可以保證有沒有信心以後詐騙的案件會減少"},{"start":677.385,"end":703.997,"text":"關於委員報告我們報告上面已經有講我們負責的產業我們已經都讓他在減少那其他的部分我們一定跟所有的部會一起聯防想辦法讓他降低你們所有相關機關裡面有沒有人跟詐騙集團掛鉤的我相信沒有我們一定沒有啦我相信其他部會也不會有有沒有審查過這個可能要問警政或者是這個我沒有辦法跟誰我們沒有資格去審查其他部會啦好那有誰可以"},{"start":706.977,"end":736.107,"text":"理事長你剛剛不是說講誰嗎?警政是不是?我說這個可能要因為這個是人事查核或者是背景查核這個不是數位部的職權科技好那要問誰?法務你們裡面有沒有跟詐騙集團掛鉤的?不然怎麼會有那麼多詐騙呢?當開來每個地方你就節流節流管制管制就不可能有詐騙了嘛有詐騙手機出來你就把它關掉嘛是不是這樣?"},{"start":737.668,"end":766.842,"text":"委員我們是負責查緝的部分那我手機關掉的部分要前端那你就有問題的啊像剛剛建委有提到啊帳戶每年有50億、70億那我請問一下那次長你覺得一個平常人帳戶有60億、70億的這個金額進出正不正常委員這不正常那你就把所有不正常全部都關掉啊委員這涉及到帳戶監理的問題那你就監理啊監理誰來監理監理不是法務部的職責是哪一個部"},{"start":768.698,"end":794.246,"text":"黃主委這個賬戶本來就應該在配合防詐上去處理不過這也要兼顧正常經濟活動要做適度的判決這裡面會出現漏洞就是有共犯結構今天早上委員在講有銀行裡面涉嫌跟外面的詐騙集團掛鉤有沒有這個情況有一家你不能有一家有一家可能就沒抓到有兩家三家"},{"start":795.629,"end":823.805,"text":"是不是在座最後因為時間關係大家有沒有信心可以把這個詐騙全部消滅掉有信心的請舉手你們現場都是中華民國大家最信任的高官我們對你們很敬佩請問現場幾位官員對於要把詐騙全部消滅掉有沒有信心願意努力去做的請舉手"},{"start":825.421,"end":833.29,"text":"報告委員,我們會全力以赴啊。那連你們都沒信心了,一般的老百姓怎麼辦?好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員,謝謝教委。"}]}},{"id":"150370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b04282d6dfc67afd9e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6790d974d09a95bb25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:52:28 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麻煩有請部長請許部長黃委員好部長好蔡英文總統說勞工是她心裡面最軟的這一塊這個理念我支持但是真的是這個樣子必須要經過檢驗"},{"start":38.45,"end":65.776,"text":"近紅大火的時候五個消防員續職總統承諾不會讓他們白白犧牲這是2018年的事情現在已經2024年了結果我們的消防弟兄最在意的事情是他們在執行職務的時候到底有什麼辦法可以去保護他們研議了六年各個單位都還在踢皮球從人事總處"},{"start":67.156,"end":91.255,"text":"提到保訓會提到消防署我剛還沒有點名到勞動部但我們最近跟消防弟兄舉行了一場座談因為我希望第一線聽他們的心聲他們真的要的是什麼他們的立場現在很簡單這一個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":92.486,"end":100.509,"text":"根本沒有用他們現在的訴求很清楚全面適用職業安全衛生法部長贊不贊成因為這個院的陳琦這邊有開過會院的陳琦開過會誰主持的誰主持的"},{"start":117.402,"end":144.731,"text":"鄭副院長鄭文燦主持的會議的結論是什麼會議的結論是說我們在消防法的那我現在就明確的跟你講嘛消防弟兄他們就不要在消防法裡面增訂嘛他們認為消防署根本沒有那個專業嘛可以保護他們的職業安全衛生嘛他們現在希望的是全面適用職業安全衛生法身為部長聽到我們的打火英雄提出這樣的訴求"},{"start":146.411,"end":169.307,"text":"同不同意?這個報告委員保護消防員的安全這個部分我是絕對支持不要講空話啦講具體的適用的法律因為這個部分權責機關在內政部消防署消防署目前也有在跟消防公會的弟兄在做討論消防弟兄就不贊成消防署放在消防法裡面嘛"},{"start":170.427,"end":192.972,"text":"你先不要去管消防署怎麼講啦我現在是請教你從勞動部長的角度對於打火英雄這樣的訴求你有什麼樣子的看法 贊不贊成你可以講一句啊說愛難照辦 做不當這個也是一個答案嘛報告委員 我的意思是說保障他的職業安全這是我一定支持的啦"},{"start":193.712,"end":217.31,"text":"只是說你要齁這個在哪一個法律系裡面這不是我能夠來做決定啦所以拍板的是鄭文燦嘛對不對是不是你們說你們院裡面有開會嘛主席是鄭文燦嘛就是說他有召集相關部會來做討論但是大家立場是一致的好沒有關係齁之前部長曾經說過警消人員的保護不能低於勞工朋友"},{"start":218.547,"end":244.239,"text":"你也是在這個會議室裡面對其他的立委做這樣的宣示嘛我們到時候具體的檢驗看到時候你們所要推出來的法律是不是有低於勞工朋友那我下一個比較好奇的事情是民間的消防隊勞工他們適用的是什麼法民間的消防隊勞工適用的是我們職安法那就奇怪啦"},{"start":245.526,"end":273.275,"text":"民間的消防隊勞工適用職安法我們真正的消防弟兄不是用職安法這是一國兩制民間的保護反而比我們政府聘的還要好是這樣嗎主要是身份的不同對嘛現在你又在講身份但我跟你講的是實職嘛民間的消防隊我剛有講就是實職的安保可以適用到職安法嘛"},{"start":274.488,"end":288.789,"text":"那我們自己的打火弟兄沒有辦法適用職安法嗎這不是一國兩制嗎這哪裡有我們的消防員受的保護會比較好或者是不會低因為消防員他還是公務人員"},{"start":289.69,"end":317.182,"text":"公務人員是身份的問題這個我了解吧公務人員的身份保障他的考權這個我都了解嘛現在我們在講的是他在實際做他的勞動行為的時候他所應該要受到的保護嘛部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎民間的消防隊是用職安法結果我們的打火弟兄希望比照是用職安法我們的政府卻在拖拖拉拉的藉口一堆"},{"start":320.561,"end":343.559,"text":"這個報告我剛剛就講說現在就是希望就是說我們在沒有關係啦部長你今天在這邊的回答齁我相信全國的打火弟兄都聽到了你有你的立場他們接不接受那是另外一個問題好蔡總統啊上任的時候他說啊勞工政策六大保障"},{"start":344.68,"end":372.332,"text":"部長你覺得在蔡總統快要卸任的時候這勞工政策六大保障政見達成率有多少你打幾分分數是我不自己打分數不過我們大部分的政見都大部分的政見都怎麼樣這個六大保障我們應該都有去做到都有做到好來我們一樣一樣看今天時間的關係我也不曉得主席會給我延多久但"},{"start":373.53,"end":400.343,"text":"我就尊重主席的才事啦台灣人月薪平均58,545這是我們主計總署講的這個有反映實際的狀況嗎這是平均嘛對 這個我了解嘛有多少人沒有達到這個平均值部長你知不知道部長你知不知道有多少人沒有達到這個平均值至少一半以上吧"},{"start":401.485,"end":406.552,"text":"你作為部長我老實講薪資的distribution你要比我還熟"},{"start":408.391,"end":431.342,"text":"來我秀給部長看啊百分之70以上的勞工是低於平均數的我從來不講空洞的東西啊我一定拿具體的數字出來講百分之70以上的勞工是低於平均數的但更重要的事情是什麼低於平均薪資的勞工比例啊年年攀升"},{"start":432.402,"end":450.777,"text":"這代表什麼意思薪資結構的扭曲在平均薪資以下的勞工比例越來越高從勞動部的角度上面來講我必須要講這是一個警訊但更重要的事情是什麼但更重要的事情是我們的薪資年增率"},{"start":452.406,"end":478.311,"text":"遠遠落後於南韓這個數字喔是央行做出來的喔央行做出來的數字說台灣的薪資年增率遠遠落後於南韓但是為了是什麼因為我們勞工佔GDP比例不斷的下降嘛作為勞動部的部長您認為台灣過去這幾年整個經濟成長的果實有公平的分配到勞工身上嗎"},{"start":481.918,"end":492.618,"text":"這個當然還不足啦這個當然還不足嘛好不足那作為勞動部部長你認為應該要怎麼樣努力才可以讓我們的勞工他可以分配到我們經濟成長的果實"},{"start":495.236,"end":512.755,"text":"具體的辦法是什麼你也承認不足了嘛那我現在請教你具體的辦法是什麼報告委員吼其實勞工薪資的一個提升吼是要跨部會啦吼來努力啦吼所以你的意思就是不管你勞動部不是不是只有你勞動部的事嘛要跨部會來努力嘛跨部會來努力啊說得很好"},{"start":514.116,"end":539.873,"text":"那要如何跨部會來努力你總不能講空話嘛如何跨部會來努力現在我在請教你的是你具體的措施到底是什麼嗎勞動部的話我們就是每年調整基本工資以政府的一個基本工資的調整來帶動央行的那份報告部長你有看嗎我看到了但是報告委員也難含喔沒有錯他央行提供一個最重要的政策建議對勞動部來講是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":542.435,"end":563.285,"text":"他是認為我們調整幅度上可以再更你贊不贊成央行的看法報告委員我們這幾年是這樣子因為也碰到疫情沒有關係啦我尊重啦我知道我不是本委員會的委員啦本委員會的委員研的時間可以比較多啦非本委員會的委員我尊重主席的才是啦好謝謝剛剛超過時間只有4分鐘嗎你要不要調會議記錄出來看"},{"start":572.154,"end":573.705,"text":"你這樣主持議事有中立嗎?"}]}},{"id":"150369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b00c814b8ca58852be5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6366415bc451f225f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:45:51 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Day的部分大概僅次於香港，Never是幾乎沒有，也就是說，臺灣每個人都可能接到過這樣的詐騙電話。另外它統計的數字，有66%的民眾認為他們的經濟是顯著受到影響，我作為一個民意代表，我們也經常接受這樣的陳情，簡報秀出的是上個禮拜有一位陳情者跟我提到，他的朋友加入一個叫做FPS的LINE，主委您聽過FPS嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對不起，我沒有聽過。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我也自己上網查了，也查不到，但是他宣稱有受到金管會的監督。這個受害者其實蠻嚴重的，因為他現在需要用到錢，而錢提不出來，所以他有了輕生的念頭。他們是透過這樣一個LINE@就被騙了，然後錢就一直出去。我現在要講的是像這樣的情況層出不窮，對於受詐騙的人，說一句實在話也非常的痛苦，民不聊生，幾乎大家都有遇過這樣的狀況。另外再提到一個醫指付APP，去年9月曾經個資外洩，當時金管會說要查，可是我們看到，上個月醫指付Google Play評論還是有民眾被盜刷。所以想要請教主委，金管會的調查情形到底如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個案子因為是衛福部下面的一個醫務公司透過財經去處理的，所以那個個資部分應該是衛福部要去處理和調查的，不是金管會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那為什麼當時我們看經濟日報，金管會說要釐清？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不曉得經濟日報是怎麼寫的，因為那個時候院裡面有協調，這個案子的主管機關，因為這個醫療體系的費用是透過無現金的方式去處理……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這個是個資，還有被盜刷，這跟金管會一點關係都沒有嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，我是說當時的分工，衛福部是這個醫務公司的主管機關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們有沒有主動去問衛福部調查結果如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時有做過分工了，這個公司是把一些資訊的東西外包給那個廠商，我們可以會後再去向衛福部瞭解一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還是要把結果告訴我們。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們會後瞭解再跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為今天就是來做打詐的專報嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們來看一下，詐騙金額屬於假投資的連續5年第1，所以我們很關心到底怎麼樣來打詐。我們看到金管會識詐三部曲，會拍影片、會設網頁、會做宣導，但是我們可以看到詐騙的手法從過去幾十年前的金光黨，到現在可以說是推陳出新，日益狂妄。我們來看一下金管會做的這個影片，我們就覺得很有趣，因為3個月前發布的這部影片，觀看次數是1.5萬次，另外3年前影片的觀看次數是1.8萬次，所以我們想要繼續的來追蹤，會不會是因為去買廣告推播，然後到1.5萬次就緩慢的增加？那到底是屬於自然吸引人家來看，還是用買的、用廣告推播？我們不得而知，但是我們會繼續來觀察。另外我們看到這些影片，僅僅只有投放在單一的社群平台，就是YouTube，我們去查Facebook，金管會沒有上架，IG也沒有開設帳號，Twitter也沒有開設帳號，我想要問一下，不知道金管會有沒有更好的做法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們金管會在整個的功能上是阻詐，識詐是一部分，但是這個部分是銀行局他們的經費每年拍微電影，其實我們證券周邊單位做了很多類似這種宣導，而且在這些社群媒體上都有做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，我會這樣子問，像前年發生柬埔寨案件，在一個月之內有好多好多人來跟我陳情，說他們去柬埔寨回不來，結果我請外交部來，外交部說「哎呀！這個其實早在去年前年就有發生」，他們說他們有做宣導，我說把宣導給我看，就是類似這樣的東西，沒有人知道啊！沒有人知道啊！我的意思是說，我們既然所有的部會要一起來投入打詐，我們可能要去想一想：哪裡做的不好、如何精進、要有策進作為。這樣可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我想……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想金管會這邊其實有公布名單，可是我們看一下金管會的防詐專區，我們看到公布的名單是散落在4個檔案夾，然後要下載才能夠一一檢視，我相信主委您應該也不認同這種做法，提供名冊自己查太辛苦，而且有6個單位、6個網頁，真的看不到，對民眾來講，我們最希望的是一次查詢，不是要各自單位來各自消化預算。","繼續請教警政署，內政部有一個165全民防騙網，結果有兩萬多筆的LINE ID，要民眾大海撈針，我也想要問一下警政署，如果我隨便講一個Ay89023這個ID，您有沒有辦法馬上查出來？"],["李副署長西河：那個按下去直接可以搜尋。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確定嗎？"],["李副署長西河：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們來看一下「165」LINE＠帳號，您說按下去嘛，那我再來查一個kkya8，它是寫「尚無通報紀錄」，可是我剛剛講的那個兩萬筆165的網頁卻有這個詐騙帳號，兩個是對不起來的，你要不要回去重新檢視一下？好，其實我要講的是，可不可以請警政署、數發部、金管會，你們有沒有可能合作來設立一個網站，供民眾一站式的查詢？做這件事很困難嗎？有沒有很困難？數發部，可以嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：技術上都沒有問題，我們可以來協助，但是資料源就要看各部會的權限能不能提供。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是不是1個月內給我一個報告？你們至少要研議。"],["李次長懷仁：沒問題，我們來研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，1個月。再請教一下警政署，請問如果錢包遺失了，要先報警好還是先掛失好？"],["李副署長西河：所謂的錢包是我們一般的錢包嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有，我這個是真的問題，就是錢包真的掉了，這不是腦筋急轉彎。"],["李副署長西河：如果丟掉了就要來報警。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你覺得要報警好，對不對？"],["李副署長西河：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們來看一下，在發卡機構有一個「信用卡定型化契約範本」，第十七條上面是這樣說啦！應儘速以電話或其他方式通知發卡機構辦理掛失手續，但如發卡機構認為有必要的時候，應於受理掛失手續日起10日內通知持卡人，要求於受通知日起3日內向當地警察機關報案或以書面補行通知發卡機構。主委，你覺得這樣的要點好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這應該是一般的通例，本來就應該先去跟發卡機構通知，必要的時候可能要向警察機關……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：實際上是這樣，民眾不是忍者，分身乏術啦！不會影分身之術，但掛失就是要跟盜刷搶時間啊！那報案我也想要問一下，像我剛才提的FPS投信詐騙，我問警政署好了，有沒有成功的案例可以把錢追回來？"],["李副署長西河：我們當然有成功的案例把錢追回來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們要不要在網路上面去公布這些成功案例？因為很多的陳情人會問我們能不能把錢追回來，我也不知道啊！到底那些錢是怎麼追回來的，可以讓我們知道嗎？"],["李副署長西河：錢包丟失，從裡面的證件去……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我不是講錢包，我現在講的是類似這種投信詐騙、電信詐騙。"],["李副署長西河：就看我們在偵辦的時候，扣到的這些不法所得……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，金管會有沒有成功的案例把錢抓回來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：信用卡被盜刷，有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有，這個都可以公布嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，至少止付就對了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，可以公布嘛？因為很多人會問。我現在是說，因為掛失就是跟盜刷搶時間，如果一個人的錢包掉了，結果裡面有各式各樣的卡，那他要去掛失，又加上這些客服電話很難打，我相信各位都知道，有的要40分鐘，有的要1個小時、半個小時，在網路都有公布，像台新要40分鐘、富邦30分鐘、華南27分鐘，如果他錢包裡面有這麼多卡，他到底要打到什麼時候？現在金管會如果是提倡普惠金融，我們也希望要來做便利金融，建立這種一站式的信用卡、金融卡掛失機制，所以本席在這邊要求，金管會是不是可以來研究一下，成立一站式的金融卡、信用卡掛失機制？主委，可不可以？沒關係，1個月內回復。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們來研究一下，不過現在好像一天之內都可以保護投資人。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒有關係，就1個月內回復。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們來研究，好不好？謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委。在數發部、警政署、金管會這邊，我們是希望建立一站式查詢LINE ID、LINE@及假投資公司名稱，建立搜尋機制，讓民眾如果有接受到這樣的詐騙，他至少有一個很方便的窗口能夠一站式地去查詢，像我查FPS我查不到，那我就知道這個應該是有問題的，不需要去逐一點閱你們所提供的LINE ID，這樣可以嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，您剛剛講的是兩個概念，一個是黑名單，一個是白名單，我們再回去研議一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那你就研議一下。"],["李次長懷仁：因為你剛剛講的合法的跟非法的，不應該在同一個網站上查。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們就研究一下，好不好？好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：接下來請羅明才召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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Ad就被騙然後錢就一直出去好那我現在要講的是說像這樣的情況的層出不窮那受詐騙的人說一句實在話也非常的痛苦名不聊生幾乎大家都有遇過這樣的狀況那這邊有一個一指付的APP他在去年的9月曾經呢"},{"start":124.187,"end":138.501,"text":"各自外洩那當時金管會說要查可是我們看到上個月依止付Google Play的評論還是有民眾被倒刷所以想要請教主委金管會的一個調查情形到底如何"},{"start":140.253,"end":140.974,"text":"為什麼當時我們看到經濟日報、金管會說要釐清?"},{"start":160.95,"end":162.171,"text":"因為這個是個資還有被倒刷,所以跟金管會一點關係都沒有嗎?"},{"start":181.835,"end":199.754,"text":"不是,我不能這樣,我是說當時的分工是衛福部是這個醫務公司的主管之中。那你們有沒有主動去問衛福部調查結果如何?當時有做過分工了,那就是這個公司他本身他把他的這個有些資訊的東西外包給那個廠商。"},{"start":200.915,"end":202.797,"text":"我們的詐騙金額屬於假投資的連續五年第一"},{"start":217.23,"end":241.977,"text":"那金管會我們很關心到底怎麼樣來打詐那我們看到試詐的三部曲會拍影片會設網頁會做宣導但是呢我們可以看到詐騙的手法從過去幾十年前的金光黨到現在可以說是推陳出新日益狂妄那我們來看一下我們金管會做的這個影片我們就覺得很有趣因為"},{"start":242.717,"end":264.562,"text":"我們看到三個月前的發布的這部影片他的觀看次數是1.5萬次那另外這個三年前的這個影片呢他的觀看次數是1.8萬次所以我們想要繼續的來追蹤啊因為會不會是因為去買廣告推播嗎會不會到1.5萬次然後就緩慢的增加"},{"start":265.522,"end":281.195,"text":"到底是屬於自然吸引人來看還是用買的用廣告推播我們不得而知但是我們會繼續的來觀察可是我們看到這些影片他僅僅只有投放在單一的社群平台就是YouTube"},{"start":281.815,"end":295.458,"text":"我們去查Facebook沒有上架金管會沒有那這個IG沒有開設帳號這個Trust也沒有開設帳號那我就想要問一下金管會不知道有沒有更好的做法"},{"start":297.028,"end":297.788,"text":"主委我會這樣子問喔我是因為像前年我們有柬埔寨"},{"start":322.254,"end":343.146,"text":"結果呢在一個月之內好多好多人來跟我澄清說他們去柬埔寨回不來結果呢我請外交部來外交部呢說哎呀這個其實早在去年前年就有發生他們說他們有做宣導我說宣導給我看就是類似這樣的東西沒有人知道啊"},{"start":343.686,"end":356.36,"text":"沒有人知道我的意思是說我們既然所有的部會要一起來投入打仗我們可能要去想一想哪裡做得不好如何精進要有策進作為這樣可以嗎可以我想"},{"start":358.803,"end":381.879,"text":"我想金管會這邊其實有在做公佈名單可是我們看一下金管會的這個防詐專區我們看到他公佈的名單是散落在四個檔案夾然後要下載才能夠一一檢視那我相信主委您應該也不認同這種做法提供名冊自己查太辛苦而且有六個單位六個網頁"},{"start":383.78,"end":402.807,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":402.887,"end":415.416,"text":"有兩萬多筆的LINE ID然後要民眾大海撈針啊我就也想要問一下我們警政署齁如果我隨便講一個AY89023這個ID齁您有沒有辦法馬上查出來?沒有警政署的嗎?"},{"start":424.485,"end":440.721,"text":"那個直接可以直接按下去直接可以縮形確定嗎是好那我們來看一下喔165這個Line8帳號您說按下去嘛那我再來查一個KKYA8他是寫上無通報記錄喔可是我剛剛講的那個2萬筆165的網頁卻有這個詐騙帳號喔兩個是對不起來的喔"},{"start":447.728,"end":465.6,"text":"要不要回去再重新檢視一下那我其實要講的是說可不可以請警政署、數發部、金管會你們有沒有可能合作來設立一個網站然後供民眾一站式的查詢做這件事很困難嗎有沒有很困難數發部可以嗎"},{"start":473.22,"end":492.772,"text":"公務員報告技術上都沒有問題我們可以來協助但是資料源就要看各部會的法權線能不能提供那是不是至少一個月內給我這樣的一個報告你們至少要研議我沒問題一個月那再請教一下警政署請問如果錢包遺失了要先報警好還是先掛屍好"},{"start":494.79,"end":495.871,"text":"在我們的發卡機構有一個信用卡定型化的契約範本第17條它上面是這樣說啦"},{"start":522.635,"end":550.454,"text":"應盡速以電話或其他方式通知發卡機構掛屍手續但如發卡機構認為有必要的時候應於受理掛屍手續日期10日內通知持卡人要求於受通知日期3日內向當地警察機關報案或以書面補行通知發卡機構那個主委您覺得這樣的一個要點您覺得好不好"},{"start":552.261,"end":571.23,"text":"這應該是一般的通例本來就是應該先去跟法卡機構通知那必要的時候可能要向警察機關實際上是這樣的啦民眾不是忍者啦分身罰術啦不會引分身之術那掛屍就是要跟倒刷搶時間啊"},{"start":573.274,"end":588.125,"text":"那報案我也想要問一下像我剛才那個FPS投信詐騙我想問一下那個問警政署好了有沒有成功的案例可以把錢追回來我們當然有成功的案例把錢追回來那你們要不要在網路上面去公佈這些成功案例"},{"start":599.111,"end":625.347,"text":"因為很多的陳情人會問我們啊能不能把錢追回來我也不知道啊到底那些錢追回來他是怎麼追回來的可以讓我們知道嗎錢包就是裡面的證件他記我不是講錢包我現在講的是類似這種頭信詐騙電信詐騙我就看我們在正版的時候擴大了擴大了這些不法所得我也希望金管會有沒有成功的案例把錢抓回來"},{"start":626.9,"end":631.645,"text":"信用卡對盜刷有嗎?有齁,這個都可以公佈嗎?好,可以公佈嘛,因為很多人會問我現在是說因為掛屍就是跟盜刷搶時間那如果我們每一個人他的錢包掉了結果裡面有各式各樣的卡"},{"start":645.759,"end":645.899,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":676.039,"end":676.199,"text":"主席"},{"start":689.839,"end":711.661,"text":"我們來研究一下,不過現在好像一天之內都可以保護投資人,我們來研究好不好?謝謝主委那速發部警政署金管會這邊那我們是希望說建立一個民眾一站式的查詢的這樣的一個LINE ID或LINE ID還有假投資公司的名稱建立搜尋機制讓我們的民眾"},{"start":713.783,"end":731.47,"text":"如果他有接受到這樣的一個詐騙他至少有一個很方便的窗口能夠一站式的去查詢像我一查FPS我查不到嘛那我就知道這個應該是有問題的齁那不需要去逐一點閱這些你們所提供的這些LINE ID這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":732.901,"end":743.627,"text":"委員您剛講的是兩個概念一個是黑名單一個是白名單我們再回去研議一下因為你剛講的合法的跟非法的不應該在同一個網站上查那你們就研究一下好不好好那謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝委員接下來"}]}},{"id":"150367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b16a69b5cab21bb8d0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a61379281035b47f1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:45:26 - 11:49:52","影片長度":"00:04:26","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":266,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:49:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:45:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我們有請國發會主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，主委好。要請教一下，因為我們在臺灣新住民，剛才有很多人就關心我們新住民跟移工，但是我們現在新住民在臺灣已經60萬人……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：加上我們的新二代、移工，還有僑生，廣義的新住民總數將近200萬人，顯示新住民是臺灣社會重要的一分子。但是行政院卻沒有一個統籌新住民事務的部會，所以新住民的業務會落在各部會。比如說就是簽證要到外交部，還有取得國籍居留要到移民署，還有就是職業訓練就要勞動部。而我們在總質詢的時候，行政院院長有說定期跨部會召開會議，但是這樣沒有要特別建立一個機構。但依據我們內政部每5年一次的調查，107年就有調查報告說，新住民需要照顧需求，要設立一個專屬的機構，是排第2，代表臺灣新住民期望有一個專屬的機構來去整合各方的資源。","隨著新住民越來越多，在社會變遷，所以相關的政策需要與時間，目前都有這樣子的需要。而且我們常講的，臺灣是民主自由的燈塔，應該是更重視新住民的權利，而不是用一句話，就是說「部會已經滿了」來應付我們。所以我想問負責組織調整及綜合規劃的國發會有什麼看法，請主委回答。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我想法律上的限制的確是現實是如此啦！所以現在先以會報的形式，新住民的會報形式，每半年召開一次，看看統合新住民有什麼樣的相關政策，需不需要做一些改進來做一些討論。那是不是要成立一個機關，我想這個就牽動到整個行政院的組織調整，它所牽涉的事情就比較多啦！","我想委員的想法，我們也會轉陳行政院，後續如果組織調整，看能不能一併來思考這個部分。我非常同意新住民在臺灣的人數也越來越多，尤其是二代，也是臺灣非常重要的中堅力量。怎麼樣讓新住民跟臺灣更好的融合或是更好的發展，這個事我完全贊成。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝我們主委。因為這樣子的話，我們就等於說我們的主委有這樣子的一個組織要去調整，因為所有的組織都是需要再來成立，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：在103年我們的國發會才成立嘛！對不對？移民署也是在96年才有的，我們的海委會也是在107年才有。所以說這個部分是有機會來做調整，還有成立這樣子的一個部會，讓更多的人受惠，也讓更多的新住民、新二代可以去做資源整合，讓人才可以再發揮。以上，謝謝我們的主委，對我們的新住民，國外的人在臺灣一個機會來為我們臺灣服務。以上，謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥玉珍委員。","接下來我們請高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","伍麗華、伍麗華，伍麗華委員不在。","劉建國、劉建國，劉建國委員不在。","好。登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","另外有楊瓊瓔委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝我們主委因為這樣子的話我們就等於說我們的主委有這樣子的一個組織的就是要去調整"},{"start":219.131,"end":221.153,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":235.606,"end":241.948,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金、離島建設基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":264.042,"end":265.467,"text":"好 謝謝麥玉珍委員"}]}},{"id":"150366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b57431ea4ce10da6dcabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6eac9628da926205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:40:58 - 11:46:57","影片長度":"00:05:59","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":359,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:46:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:40:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":700,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時41分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長你好。"],["王部長國材：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我主要是要提一個東西啦，因為剛剛我在下面聽了很久，有一個地方我聽了覺得有點意見，你有點在教訓傅崐萁總召，你認為今天提的這法案違憲。我是覺得有一個奇怪的地方，剛好小弟有念過幾年法律，剛剛法務部也說他沒有跟你們定位這個到底是法律還是預算案嘛，那等於是告訴我們這是你自己認為違憲，因為立法委員管到你們預算案的部分。","我想請問一下，來！我們看一下，當年立法院民進黨團也曾經提過啊！就是剛剛其他委員說的，在處理東部發展條例的時候，也提到以500億元預算設置發展基金的部分。為什麼當年這個條例沒問題？如果照你這樣講的話，當年民進黨就違憲啦！對不對？所以我不懂你為什麼說這是違憲啦！","再來，剛剛游顥委員提到特殊傳染病條例，你也提到因為是緊急關係，所以要用到特殊傳染病條例。事實上，當年民進黨也在其中提了臨時動議什麼的，加到2,000億，那時候為什麼又沒有人說這樣違憲？如果照這樣講的話，你是不是要回去跟你們的長官陳建仁院長講，要趕快提出釋憲案，因為這幾項條例全部都違憲？包括前瞻預算也違憲啊！前瞻預算到底是哪裡緊急了？我也搞不懂。為什麼對於這些東西立法院這邊都可以做，現在立法院提出這個，你就認為違憲、違反五權分立原則？","剛才又有很多人提到，很多東部建設都是馬英九不同意，到了蔡英文任內才做。但我必須講一件事，當年在處理前瞻預算的時候，其實徐縣長有要求把花東快納入前瞻預算，但在立法院是被否決的。我應該有準備一張投影片。奇怪，到底是誰不支持東部的建設？到底誰不支持東部的建設？所以我覺得不要這樣啦！明明是一個中央廚房產出的產品，加上你們這些官員，選舉的時候有如膝蓋反射，選舉就喊抗中保臺，談法案的時候就講對方毀憲亂政，全部都變成膝蓋反射而已啊！講這樣就沒有意思了。"],["王部長國材：委員，我可不可以說明？"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛才講這些是在打臉你今天早上對另外兩個委員的一些回答，第一，沒有違憲的問題，如果違憲，那當初民進黨團提的也違憲，前瞻預算什麼的都違憲了嘛！我是要打臉你講的這幾個點啦！由於我念過幾年法律，我認為必須告訴你不是這樣！","再來我想提一件事。賴清德副總統去年12月21日在宜蘭造勢的時候提過，希望讓宜蘭出入方便，提及要推動高鐵延伸到宜蘭，還有蘇花公路安全提升這幾個計畫。那我想請問一下，高鐵延伸到宜蘭這部分，你們目前進度怎麼樣？"],["王部長國材：現在正在二階環評。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。","我在此必須提醒一下，關於宜蘭，其實在竹科管理局所管理的幾個地方中，目前宜蘭科學園區的成長是最快的。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們也要注意一下宜蘭平原那邊的發展。而且你要知道，像我去宜蘭，假日從宜蘭回來時，不但有高乘載管制，而且會大塞車，也就是說交通運量已經不足因應了。若要讓宜蘭好好發展，那邊的科學園區既然已經表現得這麼亮眼了，若要讓它繼續亮眼下去，你要知道，用電是產業之母，交通是產業之父，所以必須注重交通這個東西。為什麼最近嘉義有封裝廠新建？其實也是考量到嘉義除了地點之外，還有很方便的高鐵，我也希望針對高鐵延伸宜蘭這個部分，交通部要當一回事，而且要非常用心地、快速地推動這件事情。請問一下，對於高鐵延伸宜蘭這項政策，你們到底會不會讓它實現？"],["王部長國材：現在正在作二階環評，我們是要推動的。關於剛才委員提到的，現在端點就在縣政中心，整體有一項特定區計畫也在進行、在跟縣政府討論了。高鐵的北延或南延都是我們的政策，現在正積極推動。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。","最後，我就奉勸行政機關，千萬不要看到提了什麼東西就說違憲、不要動不動拿違反五權分立來修理這些立法委員。不是大家都沒有念書啊！我們都念過幾年法律。這件案子有沒有違憲？你從歷史上提過的東西來看、從五權分立的憲法精神上來看，這件案子都沒有違憲。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。","請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，你的報告裡面還特別提到憲法第七十條「立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議，本特別條例之立法，恐產生立法權干預行政權之憲政爭議。」你還特別提到「本條例確有窒礙難行之處，致無法推動」，也是提到行政權、憲政的分際。今天我們不是直接在審查預算的時間去增加預算，現在是在立法，立法院有立法的權力，立法委員有提法律案的權力，這是非常非常的明確。所以這樣子寫，尤其由交通部來寫這個，你們有去跟法務部溝通過嗎？有嗎？"],["王部長國材：有，有溝通過。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有？花東地區發展條例當初沒有行政院提案？法務部要看清楚，當初民進黨團提案、國民黨團提案、王廷升等20人提案「東部區域發展條例」的草案，就是後來王金平院長主持協商4次，名稱改為「花東地區發展條例」，當時沒有行政院版本，怎麼沒有說憲政分際？怎麼沒有說違憲？這個也不能怪你，因為你不是學法律的。","如果是這樣，前瞻基礎建設條例我有提案啊，很多立委都有提案啊，行政院固然有版本，但我們都有提案，立法委員都有提案，從來就沒有人講，因為這是法律提案，很多法律的提案都會涉及到經費。所以這個不要輕易的講，尤其是由交通部來講，要講就請法務部勇敢的講，我就不相信他敢講。這裡面很多的特別條例，特別條例也有針對單一的像石門水庫、像南化水庫，很多單一特別條例裡面也都有特別的預算。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，就我了解的，單一比如基隆河整治或是石門水庫，是當時的狀況很緊急，包括淹水相關的一些課題。可是在全國的個別計畫，每個縣市的計畫都很重要，個案計畫過去都是透過剛才談到的可行性，還有綜合規劃、環評，我想委員也非常清楚。我再提一次，事實上整個花東快速道路我們沒有反對，甚至如果它評估可行，我們會支持也加速，只是現在已經進行到8月就提出可行性報告，事實上臺東也剛辦完公聽會而已，我是覺得就讓這個程序去走是最符合的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你要謝謝立法院幫你找財源，我們幫你找財源，你可行性評估、環評通過正好有財源，不是很好嗎？"],["王部長國材：不是，如果通過，當然請委員支持我們的財源。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然我們絕對支持。"],["王部長國材：因為現在還沒有審查通過，我覺得順序有一點顛倒。"],["鄭天財Sra 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有嗎 有 有溝通過 那花東第7發展條例當初沒有行政院提案喔"},{"start":166.155,"end":169.097,"text":"當時沒有行政院版本呢?"},{"start":196.533,"end":223.012,"text":"怎麼沒有說憲政分際怎麼沒有說違憲所以部分這個也不能怪你了因為你不是寫法律的啦如果是這樣前章基礎建設條例我有提案啊很多立委都有提案啊行政院固然有版本我們都有提案啊立法院都有提案啊從來就沒有人講說"},{"start":224.946,"end":247.462,"text":"因為這是法律的提案啊 法律的提案哪一條 很多法律的提案都會涉及到經費啊 都會涉及到經費 所以這個不要輕易的 尤其是由交通部來講 要講的就請法務部來講 他勇敢的講 我就不相信他敢講 所以這個部分啊 這裡面很多的"},{"start":248.959,"end":263.815,"text":"建特別條例特別條例以後針對單一的像石門水庫的像南華水庫的很多的單一的特別條例這裡面也都有特別的預算"},{"start":264.206,"end":280.094,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":280.214,"end":297.44,"text":"全國的個別計劃每個縣市的計劃都很重要喔那這個部分都是過去都是個案計劃都是透過剛才談到可行性還有綜合規劃環評我想委員也非常清楚我在這邊再提一次就是說整個花東快速大陸事實上我們沒有反對"},{"start":298.88,"end":319.069,"text":"甚至如果他評估可行我們會支持加速只是現在我已經進行到8月就提出可行性報告8月事實上台東也剛辦完公聽會而已我是覺得就讓這個程序去走是最符合的部長你要謝謝我們立法院幫你找財源"},{"start":321.363,"end":342.79,"text":"我們幫你找財源啊你可行性評估然後環評通過正好有財源不是很好嗎不是我們如果通過我們通過當然請委員支持我們的財源這個我們當然因為現在還沒有審查通過我是覺得順序有一點顛倒以交通部的立場真的不要輕易的去講這個憲政的分際以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b50a4509a85c7b907cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a66bb25b9b7bcb84b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:26:29 - 11:34:50","影片長度":"00:08:21","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":501,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:34:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:26:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時26分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["王部長國材：許委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長辛苦了，剛才俊憲委員問到的，正好我也有一些疑問，就是目前大型車民間自己裝的輔助系統，我們補助的有三型，然後交通部推動大型車整合八項主動預警輔助系統現在完成的狀況，這兩個看起來跟實際防範車禍的效率好像還有一大段的距離，這個部分是不是交通部有什麼規劃？"],["王部長國材：的確一開始的補助是比較被動式的，被動式就是駕駛自己看螢幕，那現在開始就是……"],["許委員智傑：前面這三型其實都是民間自己裝的，我們有補助4,000元跟補助1,000元，這個是前面這三型。"],["王部長國材：這比較是被動式，是要自己看螢幕。"],["許委員智傑：對，你看第一項，第一項98.82%算是很高，因為你們補助比較多錢啦。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，前面三型當時補助就是法規強制全部都要安裝，所以在法規強制實施之前先補助，這個是現在每一部車都要有的，剛剛……"],["許委員智傑：這個是第一型，第一型98%，第二型跟第三型沒有啊！"],["林司長福山：第二型跟第三型的功能是含括在第一型裡面，等於說它是比……第一型是最基本的，如果業者要裝比較好的，基本上也是……"],["許委員智傑：因為第一型是自己要看螢幕，第二型會有雷達警示系統主動告知有狀況嘛。"],["林司長福山：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以第一型，司機要自己開車，還要自己看螢幕有時候不小心……至少第二型它有通知。"],["林司長福山：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以第二型就可以減少很多車禍，因為大型車輛現在的車禍案件連續五年都超過一萬人，這個狀況其實是蠻嚴重的，真的是需要去避免。所以剛剛俊憲也提到就是說……","現在大型車大概有多少輛？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，如果說把大貨車、大客車加進來大概是十七、八萬輛。"],["許委員智傑：十七、八萬嘛，交通部推的這八項主動預警輔助系統是前面三型的功能都有包括進來對不對？"],["林司長福山：對，前面三型的部分只能算是一項功能，其他部分的話……"],["許委員智傑：還有增加其他的，這三型基本款的都包括在這八項裡面對不對？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以你看，112年我們預計要裝2,400輛，今年三月底想要完成800輛，結果到現在只裝了241輛，這個數據對不對？"],["林司長福山：是，大概到3月24號是到262輛，這個是更新的數字。"],["許委員智傑：262輛，好，沒關係。這個數據比例差非常的多，交通部花了3.3億研發，如果把這18萬輛通通裝了，因為當時研發再加上安裝，多了一些研發的經費對不對，現在如果純粹安裝，這18萬輛大概要多少錢？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，前面2,400輛跟3.3億的部分當時就是希望3.3億補助三家業者來開發，完成系統之後每一家可以安裝800輛。"],["許委員智傑：因為當時是包括研發嘛，對不對？"],["林司長福山：因為只有一家廠商來投標，所以後來的預算從3.3億調整成1.3億。"],["許委員智傑：多少？"],["林司長福山：1.3億。"],["許委員智傑：2,400輛1.3億？"],["林司長福山：800輛。"],["許委員智傑：800輛1.3億。"],["林司長福山：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個18萬輛要多少錢？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這800輛的部分是現在在做系統測試的研發，假設這個系統是OK的、具有成效效應，未來會把這一個標準轉換成產業的標準。轉換成標準後國內有興趣的業者都可以去投入生產，如果按照這個八合一，要去補助18萬輛的話……"],["許委員智傑：不用講這麼仔細，現在如果18萬輛八項通通要安裝大概要多少錢？"],["林司長福山：初步算起來應該將近18億，因為這一套系統大概十萬多。"],["許委員智傑：18億對不對？好。","部長你認為這可有價值？"],["王部長國材：有啊！有，我覺得主動式……，的確過去被動式有時候會自己沒看到，而且八合一的想法是說，因為以後要裝很多裝置進去。"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["王部長國材：如果這樣，大家都在那邊拉線……"],["許委員智傑：所以新的主動預警八項算是蠻好的。"],["王部長國材：對，就把它整合。"],["許委員智傑：現在已經完成了，研發完成了嘛。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["許委員智傑：測試、試用也OK，所以現在在安裝這800輛。"],["王部長國材：車輛一直做安裝，現在開始安裝。"],["許委員智傑：現在在做800輛，其實這五年每一年車禍死傷都超過一萬人，這一萬人的死傷會造成多少的家庭破碎？如果每一年18億，這一萬的死傷變成一百好了，應該是很值得。所以現在我語重心長的跟交通部呼籲，要花這18億的錢，有很多錢都已經在花了，這樣可以讓大型車都全面安裝。尤其大型車在調頭轉彎時常常發生車禍，車輪撞倒壓到人時那真的是慘不忍睹啦！所以如果我要求全部安裝，交通部現在的規劃可不可行？或者是大概多久可以完成，可以有一個進度的推估？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，現在800輛就是看它實施的成效怎麼樣，如果好的話，我們願意爭取另外一筆預算來全面安裝。"],["許委員智傑：對，我的意思就是這樣，因為本來是研發加安裝嘛，那現在其實真的是……因為我算一算不是很多錢啦，花這18億可以讓每年一萬人的車禍減少，假設這一套系統有效的話……"],["王部長國材：非常有效。"],["許委員智傑：我們沒辦法要求100%，但一萬個變一百個有可能啦，這樣就減少很多，幾乎可以把所有大型車的車禍減少掉。我覺得這真的是相當重要，請交通部是不是研議一個規劃，大概什麼時候可以給我，就是安裝之後、測試成功進度大概什麼時候？什麼時候可以編列預算？18萬輛的大型車何時全部安裝完成，是不是寫一個規劃報告給我？"],["王部長國材：就是給一個書面資料答復您，這樣好不好？"],["許委員智傑：OK，希望交通部努力減少國人車禍的死傷。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝許智傑委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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所以第一行的是因為你看第一行90倍點2%正確啦因為你們有補比較多錢啦"},{"start":90.592,"end":112.365,"text":"跟委員報告一下前面三行當時補助就是法規要強制全部都要安裝所以在這個法規強制實施之前先補助所以這個是現在每一部車都要有的那是第一行啊第一行98%那第二行跟第三行沒有啊"},{"start":113.446,"end":129.685,"text":"第二型跟第三型的功能是含括在這個第一型裡面等於說它是比第一型是最基本的然後如果說這個業者要裝比較好的那基本上也是對因為第一型你要自己看螢幕嘛第二型它會有雷達警示系統告訴你說有狀況嘛"},{"start":132.699,"end":159.923,"text":"所以第一型你和司機要是自己開車要自己開檸檬有時候不小心那你至少第二型他有通知嘛那所以第二型就可以減少很多因為我們現在看就是大型車輛現在的車禍的案件連續5年都超過1萬人這個狀況其實是蠻嚴重的那我們真的是要怎麼樣去避免所以剛剛郡縣也提到就是說我們現在大型車現在大概有多少輛"},{"start":161.055,"end":177.526,"text":"跟我們報告一下如果說把大貨車架進來跟大客車的話大概這個就是十七八萬輛十七八萬嘛那你看喔我們交通部推的這八項主動預警輔助系統這個是包括前面三行的功能都有包括進來嘛對不對"},{"start":179.146,"end":194.571,"text":"對 然後還有就是說前面三型的部分只能算就是一項功能啦那其他的部分的話還有增加其他的就這三型的基本款的他都包括在這8項裡面嘛對不對所以你看我們112年預計要裝2400輛然後呢今年3月底想要完成800輛所以到現在只裝了241輛這個是不是這個數據對不對"},{"start":209.181,"end":223.681,"text":"是大概到3月24日是到262這個是更新的這個數字262好沒關係你看喔這個數據比例差非常的多那我們交通部花了3.3億研發啦"},{"start":226.457,"end":236.873,"text":"那如果說我們把這18萬輛通通裝的因為當時研發再加上安裝多了一些研發的經費嘛對不對那現在如果純粹安裝這18萬輛大概要多少錢"},{"start":241.512,"end":261.158,"text":"跟委員報告一下前面那個2400輛跟3.3億的部分當時就是大概就是希望說3.3億來補助3家業者來開發到完成系統之後每一家可以這個安裝這個800輛所以對啦因為當時是包括研發嘛對不對那後來這個因為只有一家廠商來投標所以後來預算從3.3調整成這一個1.3億多少1.3億1.3億對對那2400輛1.3億800輛"},{"start":271.121,"end":274.845,"text":"8百輛 1.3億所以如果18萬輛要多少錢?跟委員報告一下因為這一個8百輛的部分那個是現在在做系統測試的研發那如果說假設這個就是說這個系統這個是OK的話"},{"start":287.378,"end":301.848,"text":"那這是具有成效的一個效應的話未來會把這一個標準轉換成產業的標準那轉換成產業標準那國內有興趣的業者都可以去投入生產那如果說按照這個八合一要去補助18萬輛的話"},{"start":303.049,"end":303.169,"text":"拜託給我結單"},{"start":320.183,"end":345.044,"text":"我覺得主動式的確在過去被動式有說自己沒看到所以主動式是而且他這次821是這樣他的想法是說因為我以後要裝很多裝置進去每個人都要在那裡勤洗所以說這個新的這個主動疫情八項的這個算是蠻好的嘛對就把它整合阿現在已經完成了嘛是是是研發完成了嘛那測試試用也OK吧"},{"start":346.121,"end":356.469,"text":"所以現在在安裝這800輛嘛對不對現在在做800輛嘛那其實你看喔五年每一年死傷都超過一萬人這一萬人的死傷會造成多少的家庭那如果是10百億啦10百億可以每一年這10萬的死傷的啦變成100好了啦"},{"start":377.373,"end":388.121,"text":"應該是很值得。所以我現在就是說要很語重心長的跟交通部呼籲,十八開這個錢,很多錢都在開了啦。這可以讓大型車全面安裝齁。"},{"start":393.459,"end":418.656,"text":"那把這個大型車尤其是燈頭外角啦,齁,那疊疊恰好,那弄到高過,齁,那真的是,你真的是不堪入目啦,齁那所以這個部分如果我要全部安裝,那交通部現在的規劃可不可行,或者是大概多久可以完成,我們可以有一個進度的推估"},{"start":419.827,"end":441.792,"text":"市長跟委員報告我想如果現在是2400輛800輛800輛就是看它實質的成效怎麼樣如果好的話我們應該來爭取另外一筆預算來來全面安裝對我的意思就是這樣就是說現在因為本來是研發加安裝嘛那現在其實真的是我因為我算一算不是很多錢啊"},{"start":443.703,"end":467.223,"text":"花這18億可以讓每年一萬個車禍一萬人的車禍可以減少我們假設這一套系統有效的話我們如果沒辦法說一百%啦你別說一萬個變一百個啦有可能啦但是你就減很多幾乎把所有的大型車的車禍可以減少掉所以我覺得這個真的是相當重要那請交通部是不是研議一個規劃"},{"start":469.885,"end":487.382,"text":"大概什麼時候可以給我一個規劃就是說我們這樣子的一個完安裝之後測試成功進度大概什麼時候那我大概什麼時候可以編列預算然後我可以把這個18萬的大型車全部安裝完產是不是可以寫一個規劃報告給我"},{"start":488.752,"end":489.894,"text":"希望我們交通部努力減少國人車禍的死傷"}]}},{"id":"150363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b7597190d32e03faee5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a61d18f229ee2f58aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:30:27 - 11:45:46","影片長度":"00:15:19","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":919,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:45:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:30:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時30分）謝謝主席。我們是不是還是請許部長？"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，午安。我們還是要關心一下佳豐鋁業，佳豐鋁業爆炸導致2死6傷，其實是很重大的工安危機，死者都是移工，重傷的有3位本國籍、3位外國籍，完全暴露了3K產業的工作環境以及它的職業安全急迫性的提升與改善。今天我們在這裡當然要討論它之外，也要再討論如何輔導業者、督導業者，除了要遵循法遵之外，其實更要重視職業安全及衛生。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們的就服法第五十四條講到，如果雇主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能，得以廢止聘僱許可等，但是這個都是事後，當然防範於事前更重要，所以你是否有辦法將重大職災的預防措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準？也就是說，應該要有什麼配套，聘僱移工時要有這樣的能力或配套，我們才得以准許？","我們再說回來，根據高雄市政府的說法，佳豐鋁業從2021年起就執行過14次安衛的勞動檢查，一共發現了5項違規，這個違規是什麼？它的違規就是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練，或是教育訓練不足，以及未依規定實施機械設備與車輛機械自動檢查。後來並未針對當時的5項違規開罰，沒有開罰的原因是它在期限內的確改善了，所以沒有開罰。但是我們都知道，所謂的限期改善，你說你要針對新進勞工做安全教育、要實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查，這些其實都是書面資料，而且書面資料連檢附照片都不用，所以沒有開罰，但是不是真的做了，我們不知道，老實說。這個規定沒有要求書面資料、也沒有要求檢附影像資料，它將書面資料送過來，你們當然就認定它是改善了。但我們從事後來看，它今天是水滲入鋁湯當中，所以對於機械設備的操作以及教育訓練的確就是關鍵。之前它的教育訓練及機械設備操作也發生過違規，而你們也認為它改善了，所以我們的要求標準其實是很低的，書面而已，有沒有再檢討的空間？"],["許部長銘春：可以，報告委員，在它的書面送過來之後，我們其實也會去現場複查……"],["林委員淑芬：這個有去複查過嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["林委員淑芬：有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：應該……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼複查法？有沒有教育訓練要怎麼複查？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們檢查……"],["林委員淑芬：寫了切結書？"],["鄒署長子廉：現場看的缺失，譬如勞工是否有接受教育訓練，可以看舉辦教育訓練的紀錄與綜合資料來佐證它是否有再重複違反，如果複查後發現沒有改善就會處罰了，所以我們是……"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，沒有啦！我們問過，真的不是這樣子！今天這個爆炸現場，最荒謬的是有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項，有嗎？這個有嗎？這個也是基本條件啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，這個我們要再進一步了解。"],["林委員淑芬：可能連這個都沒有，而且是你們認定已改善不予裁罰，除了書面審查的資料，你說你有去複查，但是就我們所知是沒有的，僅有書面審查而已。因此剛剛我再加一點，工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的外籍移工應注意事項要以他的母語告示，有沒有都還是問號。","再來我要講的是監察院的說法，它這個是屢次違規，過去曾經發生了4次，而且4次違規都與這次爆炸事件的疏失有關，所以我才會再一次提醒你。根據監察院110年的報告指出，移工的職災失能千人率是本國勞工的2倍，主要的原因是移工從事的經常是傳產中的3K產業，機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置、或是為了提升產出的速度，關閉安全裝置，或是欠缺職前教育的訓練，讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外，因為缺乏有效的職災通報平台，造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出未汰換而導致職災事故反覆發生的機率很高，這份是監察院的報告喔！職災死亡與職業傷病的千人率沒有顯著的明顯差別，可是在失能千人率卻是很高，為什麼？你知道有多高嗎？105年本國籍勞工是0.25的千人率、外籍移工是0.6，到了109年本國籍勞工千人率是0.21、外籍移工是0.44。部長、署長，你們怎麼看？監察院的糾正報告，不是我耶！"],["許部長銘春：是，所以我們一定要針對這些缺失、指正……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，110年耶！你卻說現在！在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重，但你們對於它講的3K產業，包括機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置、或是為了提升產出速度而關閉安全裝置、或是欠缺職前教育訓練等，110年到現在已經是113年了，部長，不是你現在說要回去檢討改進，從110年就告訴你們了，到現在也都沒有改進啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們其實都有一些精進的……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我，111年、112年的千人率有下降嗎？本土勞工2倍的現象有改進嗎？不知道！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，委員確實是講到了重點，外籍移工從事3K產業是比較多，相對的風險也是非常大，所以在他們進入本國時我們就給予第一線的教育訓練，而且現在發展署有一個iCAP，我們希望安全衛生……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你講得太好了！你說進來本國時都要接受教育訓練，但這是事實嗎？你們為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力，職安署針對移工設立教育安全訓練，但是僅限於7項，哪7項？"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，那個應該是指職安卡，我們是針對營造業為優先，沒有錯。這個……"],["林委員淑芬：我先告訴你，你們在108年邀集相關訓練單位代表共同研商，針對外籍移工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機、起重機、吊掛作業人員，研議即席翻譯的具體作法，又在112年增加了高空工作車操作人員及氧乙炔熔接裝置等等，但是我告訴你，這裡面有幾個大問題，譬如失能中高空摔落很嚴重的營造業，或是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分，也都應該要列入，可是狀況有幾個，第一個，你們開班授課對產業移工的涵蓋率預期要多高？產業移工幾十萬，你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，其實每個工廠的樣態是不太一樣的，應該是工廠要給移工比較好的教育訓練，而我們是在他們進入本國時給予一個基礎的教育訓練，包括觀念、想法以及職災補償的機制，讓移工能夠有所了解，回到職場之後，本來就應該是雇主要讓勞工接受教育訓練才可以上工。"],["林委員淑芬：但事實上事業單位的雇主有沒有職安意識、要不要讓移工去你們那裡接受訓練，或是他自己要不要接受訓練，這是問號啦！第二個，工廠要自行實施的安衛訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎？或是現場的告示牌全部都有用移工的母語告示嗎？這也是一個問號啊！你講了、你也看到了，職災失能率相對高的產業，你認為要加強一點訓練，但是政府最終能加強的訓練數量涵蓋率太少了、太低了，還是要靠事業單位，可是事業單位願不願意做、有沒有做，問號！這個該怎麼辦？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練，在現場它就是弱點，所以需要更好的教育訓練，而我們教育訓練的規則就是雇主有沒有落實這個程度，我們如何做法制的一些修正……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你講得太好，但我再告訴你一個事實，剛才你說雇主有沒有做很重要，現在我就告訴你雇主有沒有做。桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安衛訪視，它去查核了344家，結果發現高達273家事業單位，不要說是教育訓練、安衛訓練，光是提供外語版本的教育訓練教材就有八成的違規比例，沒有落實母語教育訓練，聽不聽得懂也不知道，在這種狀況下，我們都知道移工的語言隔閡很大，溝通上的限制就會造成安衛上對自身危害辨識能力的障礙，所以你要如何督導事業單位，這個很重要啊！","我們也知道沒事發生就沒事，一旦有事發生，我們的就服法第五十四條規定得以廢止聘僱，但是監察院的調查報告指出，過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的雇主，從以前到現在只有一個雇主依就服法被刪除聘僱額度，發生了這麼多的職災傷害、造成這麼多失能的案例，只有一個被刪除聘僱額度，難怪啊！政府不敢啟動就服法第五十四條，不敢從嚴啊！難怪雇主始終將移工當成用完即丟的商品，反正失能了就回去吃自己，保險賠一賠，再給一點錢了事。","我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的，事實上並不是啊！部長，你們最清楚知道，外籍移工現在不是源源不絕，勞動部要落實就服法的規範之外，剛剛我提到還需要有什麼機制課以雇主更嚴格的責任，那些本來就是他們的責任，安衛、教育、訓練，對不對？在職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是雇主的責任啊！發生問題之後，確認是雇主沒有盡到責任，你還不敢取消他的聘雇許可，這樣就不對了。部長，對嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們現在針對重大職災直接就……"],["林委員淑芬：現在重大職災的定義已經改了，重大職災是什麼？重大職災光是通報的定義都改了啊！只要是住院的就要通報了。我現在要講的是，如果造成死亡、失能，得以廢止他繼續聘雇的法律工具就在那裡，蘿蔔與棒子，你沒有給蘿蔔、棒子也不敢用，整個體系就變成法律失能啊！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我們一定會落實執行這個部分。"],["林委員淑芬：我再建議勞動部，你要研擬在職安法的法遵情形，要求他們實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示是不是有使用移工母語的訓練或現場的工作標示，要納入招募許可應備文件及審查項目。到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示，教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分，都有提供而且有訓練，這樣才有資格去聘僱。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員淑芬：其實我還有一個臺美21世紀貿易倡議的議題，但是主席已經站起來了，所以我就下次再說好了。","我們從佳豐鋁業的事件來看，其實這種3K產業的每一個外籍或本籍勞工都是很珍貴的，每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐，如果他失能或死亡了，原本的一家支柱變成家裡的負擔，本來是要支撐這個家庭卻變成家庭要支撐他，所以大家都知道不能貧病，一旦貧病之後就往下沉淪，家庭的處境就會更不堪。因此，不是發生事情後要如何賠償、補償而已，更應該要做的是職業安全衛生中所講的職災預防，預防是最重要的，而我們的法律工具擱著不用，我覺得對勞工而言是最不應該的，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，接下來請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["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是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長"},{"start":14.246,"end":39.733,"text":"林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善"},{"start":40.493,"end":61.352,"text":"我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等"},{"start":64.093,"end":72.88,"text":"但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準"},{"start":81.086,"end":81.407,"text":"加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查"},{"start":103.478,"end":108.223,"text":"一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查"},{"start":130.323,"end":149.177,"text":"當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用"},{"start":156.161,"end":175.523,"text":"所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中"},{"start":177.165,"end":193.234,"text":"所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以"},{"start":195.592,"end":224.46,"text":"法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了"},{"start":225.74,"end":243.228,"text":"我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎"},{"start":249.038,"end":264.449,"text":"這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說"},{"start":266.857,"end":282.215,"text":"工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次"},{"start":286.46,"end":304.934,"text":"而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍"},{"start":306.875,"end":331.189,"text":"那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外"},{"start":331.929,"end":348.62,"text":"因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高"},{"start":350.243,"end":363.976,"text":"這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎"},{"start":370.477,"end":384.849,"text":"105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看"},{"start":390.764,"end":415.272,"text":"監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等"},{"start":417.392,"end":431.582,"text":"110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎"},{"start":440.393,"end":458.699,"text":"報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生"},{"start":459.079,"end":473.713,"text":"署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項"},{"start":476.195,"end":493.626,"text":"那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法"},{"start":497.768,"end":522.214,"text":"但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個"},{"start":523.914,"end":529.956,"text":"要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍"},{"start":538.649,"end":561.046,"text":"包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦"},{"start":561.226,"end":565.388,"text":"二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?"},{"start":578.476,"end":591.381,"text":"或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做"},{"start":607.266,"end":627.205,"text":"跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做"},{"start":627.825,"end":635.347,"text":"桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢"},{"start":654.071,"end":670.607,"text":"在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊"},{"start":671.047,"end":699.342,"text":"那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等"},{"start":700.242,"end":717.117,"text":"只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事"},{"start":722.262,"end":728.506,"text":"我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任"},{"start":746.136,"end":767.811,"text":"那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練 對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸 發生問題了 確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦 不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會"},{"start":775.199,"end":778.501,"text":"中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊"},{"start":785.88,"end":807.355,"text":"只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊"},{"start":807.975,"end":819.186,"text":"委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目"},{"start":833.906,"end":844.765,"text":"你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱"},{"start":846.431,"end":864.31,"text":"其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業"},{"start":866.687,"end":892.788,"text":"每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪"},{"start":893.789,"end":916.885,"text":"所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b95fb494ea0bc14b5756a31bd31097f3af8ba9b0039caa7a6f2c5ffaebb866bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:34:23 - 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還有這場所有的先進 還有我們各個團體的好朋友 列席的一個官員那我想 我剛剛也在底下聆聽了一些團體的一個意見那也正可以去看到說 海洋保育這個是這一部法令確實是需要跟各界來經過廣泛的 而且深入的討論"},{"start":25.074,"end":33.185,"text":"跟溝通那個尋求社會上最大的一個共識海洋我相信這個其實涉及到領域非常大有經濟有生態有產業那我記得這個在過去在立法院裡面"},{"start":42.857,"end":69.565,"text":"這個大家對於臺灣四面環海大家很清楚整個海洋事務是多元跟龐雜所設的主管機關也非常多所以我們在107年的時候去成立海洋委員會這個也是象徵著政府以海洋思維作出發全力投入海洋發展的一個建議的一個決心2019年的時候我們通過了海洋基本法是明定政府必須要在兩年內去制定海洋保育法跟海域管理法在內的海洋三法"},{"start":70.445,"end":99.068,"text":"那我在很榮幸在上一屆在擔任內政委員會召委的時候我們順利的完成了一加一就是海洋產業法案條例的立法跟海無防治法的一個修法這個雖然是歷史性的一課但是雖然是遲到了但是這個顯示政府對這個法的一個慎重性那海保法就剛我談到了就是說這個部分確實要跟各界再去做廣泛的跟深入的一個溝通那我倒有一個想法就是說海保法"},{"start":99.528,"end":99.568,"text":"主席"},{"start":115.231,"end":121.835,"text":"整個法通過以後呢這個其實才是地方政府有這個法源的一個依據去規劃跟劃設整個海洋庇護區一整個海洋庇護區我想這個就變成這次討論的一個核心了以我屏東來看的話哇塞嗨勒"},{"start":132,"end":133.861,"text":"我也特別關心而那個地方產業其實有餘孽我們也一直想要發展整個運動的一個產業那所以我倒認為說地方政府"},{"start":160.979,"end":162.581,"text":"法通過以後才是地方政府去跟相關團體跟當地的居民去做對話這個是我們在內政委員會我們一直要去支持的一個原因"},{"start":179.835,"end":185.779,"text":"通過其實就是溝通的一個開始我們今天很開心看到這麼多朋友來表達不同的意見我們也希望主管單位這個地方聲音也要聽進去另外我要講的就是說現行海洋保育區裡面你去看我們佔整個領海跟淨線水域裡面你差不多不到9%8.38%也就是說近90%的海域裡面沒有受到保護區法規的規範那你按照整個海保法的草案裡面第7條你劃設海洋庇護區"},{"start":209.072,"end":209.112,"text":"主席"},{"start":231.525,"end":235.49,"text":"主管機關得派海洋保育觀察員在船舶海洋設施跟海洋工程跟周圍從事觀察監測跟收集資料的任務必要時可以尋求海洋巡防機關警察機關的一個協助本席認為說到底我們後續會"},{"start":252.128,"end":271.42,"text":"負與這些海洋保育觀察員多少的一個公權力這涉及到執法的力度到什麼地方你增加了這些海保的觀察員以現在還好為你的事務你們這些事務的一個緣額緊繃的程度你到底是緣額到底充不充足我相信人種這個地方他應該是否會配合協調進行這個整個緣額的一個調整"},{"start":277.825,"end":292.718,"text":"這我相信都是在一併列入立法的一個考量如果說我們只是規權性質的海洋保育觀察員沒有辦法在第一時間裡面去有一些公權力的一個賦予給他的話那你對於整個庇護區的保護程度你可以到什麼地方"},{"start":293.579,"end":313.3,"text":"所以今天這個公聽會裡面 大家可不可以在審慎去做一個思考說 賦予公權力 我今天到時候沒搞掂 到時候一個處理員說來喔 我就拜託你海巡來 拜託你警察來這個就有一點失去 有一點失去我們這個立法的一個意義 所以我們這一部法令不只兼顧平衡社會各群體最大的一個利益"},{"start":314.261,"end":314.421,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":337.438,"end":337.558,"text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員"}]}},{"id":"150361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005ba90daf14cec476970ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a69b2934fa4db78b885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 - 11:44:10","影片長度":"00:05:28","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":328,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:44:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:38:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委你好，我們在前一個會期就跟主委討論過關於地方創生的題目，我們先來看一下，主委看得出左邊這個是什麼東西嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有提示了，香蕉的製品。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以是香蕉的什麼？我每次都來考主委，因為地方創生就會出現這樣連主委都認不出來的東西。這個是香蕉烤餅。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我以為是披薩。"],["陳委員培瑜：看起來很像披薩。這是最近在網路上燒得很嚴重的事情，我想主委一定知道香蕉是南臺灣重要的經濟作物，也是我們召委的選區，在旗山這個地區，我們看到旗山的老街上，只要每個觀光客走進去一定都會買香蕉製品，對吧！不管是蛋糕、冰沙、冰淇淋、各式各樣的餅乾都有，可是這兩三年在旗山老街卻出現一個很嚴重的狀況，很多香蕉餅、香蕉烤餅都不是用臺灣在地的香蕉做成的，很多其實來自越南，只是它來到臺灣再把香蕉加工，就變成我們在街上看到的香蕉烤餅，不知道主委有沒有看過這個現象？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：香蕉的部分我還不知道，但是我知道另外一個例子，例如彰化的爆米花，基本上是進口的，所以我們現在透過地方創生，讓我們自己栽種可以製造爆米花的玉米品種出來，因為臺灣的玉米品種不太適合。"],["陳委員培瑜：這代表主委掌握到了，只是你可能不知道原來旗山老街上也出現類似的問題，就如同你說的，它其實影響了當地的農民，也影響了當地的店家。我們前兩天在網路上看到一個文章，它已經分享了數千次，為什麼？因為當地的文創商店、地方創生的年輕夥伴，他們看到這個現象，他們想要告訴政府說，可不可以積極來做這件事情？","我們來看一下我們具體的建議，之前因為地方創生的題目和主委討論過非常非常多次，我們是不是可以建議透過分區輔導中心積極協處釐清，同時友善提醒店家，我再次提醒是「友善提醒」，我們並不是要一開始就把消保機制、檢舉的機制帶入，可不可以友善提醒店家要給予消費者清楚的產地來源資訊？我們當然還是歡迎新住民的姐妹們、新住民的朋友在旗山老街賣，只要他標示清楚是從越南進口的香蕉或從任何一個地方進口的香蕉做成的香蕉烤餅，這是第一個。你覺得有沒有機會透過分區輔導中心來幫忙這件事情？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。報告委員，我們地方創生一定要強調在地，在地的食材跟在地的有機，是友善環境的，這才會是我們地方創生支持的部分。如果有一些店家說他們是地方創生，我們就會做一些要求，你一定要用在地的食材、在地的原料、在地的DNA……"],["陳委員培瑜：如果他不標榜，但是他混淆視聽呢？我這樣說好了，他沒有特別標明。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：混淆視聽可能就是標示的部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：主委覺得這會不會傷害到我們在地做地方創生的夥伴？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：會。"],["陳委員培瑜：假設我一樣做香蕉烤餅，可是因為我用的是臺灣香蕉，我的成本想必比越南進口的香蕉還要來得高，是不是就傷害了主委所輔導的地方創生的團隊和夥伴們？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是會有一些排擠效果。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們就拜託主委這邊是不是透過分區輔導中心，不管他是不是標榜地方創生的團隊，我覺得積極進行溝通，所以我剛才說的是友善提醒，我們不要一開始就做出產品來源標示不清的處罰。你後面的幕僚也在點頭，不知道主委的看法？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們先用柔性的協處方式比較好。"],["陳委員培瑜：第二個，如果我們有這些新住民朋友進到臺灣，他們確實也把他們當地的食物和文化帶進臺灣來，他們有特殊的做法，我相信臺灣人也會很歡迎。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：歡迎，當然歡迎。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然歡迎，絕對歡迎，可是國發會可否透過跟農業部跨部會合作，如何用臺灣農民栽種出來本地的優秀農產品，然後跟新住民的美食文化結合，變成老街上大家採購的特色產品，你覺得有沒有可能國發會跟農業部積極討論，並且協助地方創生夥伴去做這樣的事情？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們是鼓勵地方創生要有在地的DNA，這是核心，但是外來的技術、外來的knowhow來結合，有創新性的想法，這我們是支持的，也非常歡迎，因為有異業結合才可以讓它更茁壯、更壯大，不過還是要強調在地的DNA的重要性。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，所以可不可以跟農業部積極的跨部會研議這件事，輔導農民在栽種作物的時候，如何跟新住民的文化、美食結合，把這個元素也帶入地方創生的夥伴所在經營的團隊當中？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們後續會再跟國發會積極討論。謝謝主席，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。不過陳培瑜委員剛剛提到的事情，因為旗山是我的選區，你講到這個應該是某一個攤位，不是整個旗山老街都在賣這個東西，我覺得這不能混淆。第二，這個攤位應該不是地方創生，所以它跟地方創生也不能混在一起。第三，如果是越南的外籍新娘直接從家鄉進口香蕉烤餅，我覺得標示上面我們會希望要求他標示清楚，但是我並不認為我們旗山老街上面賣的東西是越南進口的，所以這一點特別要跟你澄清一下，這會影響到我們整個旗山老街商圈業者的信譽，因為我們賣很多什麼香蕉餅、香蕉乾、香蕉蛋捲、香蕉冰、香蕉蛋糕等等，那其實都是用我們旗山在地的香蕉來去製作的，所以這一點我要特別澄清一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有，我剛剛講是部分攤位，其實……"],["主席：應該是只有這一攤啦！因為旗山老街應該只有這一攤啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","黃仁、黃仁，黃仁委員不在。","我們請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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11:39:27","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":643,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:39:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:28:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時28分）主席、各位列席委員。主席，我想請主計長、內政部及法務部。"],["主席：請主計長、請法務部黃謀信常次。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：黃常次好。","另外再請內政部警政署副署長。"],["主席：請內政部警政署李副署長。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，政府公布在4月1號要調漲電價，這是全國的人都知道了，1,300萬戶漲定了，平均漲幅11%，不分級距，都要為這個錯誤的政策，光電弊案、綠能弊案，還有台電虧損連連等等，這些都要由民眾來買單。政府在2023年、2024年分別編列預算，增資台電1,500億、1,000億，更在2023年用超徵的收入即人民的納稅錢，以特別預算來補貼500億，那這一次電價調整，是已經在政院補貼的1,000億以上的基礎再漲價，就是光在這兩年，行政院已經對台電支援了4,000億，而這4,000億都是我們的納稅錢，都是人民的納稅錢。電價跟民生攸關，息息相關，反正電價一漲，民生萬物皆漲，未來台電漲價一定是常態，不會只有今年，也不會只有明年，搞不好下半年又要再漲。所影響的物價，還有所有的通膨，從上游到下游都會影響零售商或是民生的一些生活，最後的成本都轉嫁給消費者。民眾最無奈，最後還要替執政黨擦屁股，都是我們的老百姓，錯誤的政策不斷，貪污腐敗的一大堆，案子也不知道查到什麼地方……"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，沒有貪污啦，我們不曉得公務員有貪污……"],["顏委員寬恒：還沒有被揭露的還有很多，這不是你的事情，但是我要講給你聽，所有的成本都要百姓吸收，所以我們是替百姓說話，這情何以堪，真的是很可憐。現在就進入今天的主題。","我看了主計總處的報告，為提升我國打擊詐欺犯罪效能等，設立行政院打詐辦公室，臺灣高檢署、法務部調查局、六都直轄市、調查處機動站、警政署等等的部會機關都成立相關的打詐平台。我要舉個例子，警方在去年破獲大型詐騙集團的洗錢機房本部，當初在攻堅的時候，這些第一線的員警還用垂釣的方式來突破歹徒的機房，冒著生命危險引起社會極大的關注。該集團以匯款洗錢詐欺，不法所得超過90億，法院將機房的20名共犯分別判處六個月到一年兩個月徒刑，而且全部緩刑，這是社會的期待嗎？就媒體報導，尤其過去我們都知道，臺灣人詐騙輸出，臺灣人在國外詐欺被押解回臺的案例，多數刑期都在數個月到一、兩年不等，而且大多都能夠易科罰金，讓辦案人員、基層員警不知如何是好，尤其對我們民眾而言也是一樣。與其說把這些人押回受審，但事實上回到臺灣就是享受，等於是回來享福。我想請問主計長、次長和副署長，司法對於詐騙案件做出的回應，是不是都在打臉執法人員？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個可能請法務部常次說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：請常次。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員提到的其實是我們審判結果的問題，就是法院的量刑不符合民眾期待的問題，但量刑問題基本上是司法院主管，也是法官的核心事項，法務部不敢過問。但就法務部的職掌來講，對法院的判決，檢察官是有監督的責任，所以對法院的判決過低，或量刑過低，我們要求檢察官在量刑的時候，在法院論告的時候，必須要把相關的量刑因子……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，次長，你的意思是說，因為要求的是檢察官，而判刑的是法官，基層員警就是不敢過問，不敢多加要求，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：那要怎麼辦？我們永遠抓不完啊！對不對？你抓越多，他放越多嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：制度設計上，對於法院的判決，檢察官要監督他的判決，所以他判決……"],["顏委員寬恒：制度是這樣沒有錯，那這個不能要求嗎？我們現在就是要求法官，我們對法官還有檢察官一樣都在要求，從2020詐騙案件2.3萬件，金額42.5億，2022年已經變2.9萬件，金額69.6億，但這個可能是有揭露的，更多的或許我們不曉得，我覺得應該是更多，多到我們可能不知道的情況。2023年一整年被詐騙的金額累積88.78億，是創史上新高，按照這個發展，我想會破百億，今年可能就破百億了。像這種情況，這些詐欺的及洗錢的正犯、共犯，不管犯了幾條罪，都會被競合成一條罪，只要坦白，最後法院再用緩刑的方式，讓這些詐欺洗錢的人得以免去牢獄之災。預算編一編，抓了又放人，一堆易科罰金緩刑，更不要說詐欺罪明明有組織犯罪的法條可以用，但不去適用新的法條，法定刑是處一年以上七年以下，這些詐騙的都是集團式的加重詐欺罪，如果用新的法條，怎麼可能每個都輕犯？是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，是要區分他是詐欺集團或是人頭帳戶的判決，還是一般車手的判決。一般車手的判決，現在法院大概量刑都在一年到兩年，占80%……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，所以我要講，你剛剛講說罪刑不相當嘛，對不對？他所犯的罪跟所判的刑期就是沒有相當，所以我們就是要檢討怎麼樣來要求，甚至如果法律不夠周延是不是要修法，那草案是不是要送過來立法院，對不對？我相信這個不分朝野都會支持啦！"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，我們在打詐專法，就刑罰的威嚇性這部分，我們是要研擬如何加強。"],["顏委員寬恒：那法務部可不可以要求檢察官從重求刑？"],["黃次長謀信：這沒有問題，跟委員報告，在檢察官這個階段，檢察官……"],["顏委員寬恒：你剛剛一開始說你們不能要求，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：那是法院，對於法院法官，法務部當然不能夠要求，但是在檢察官偵查起訴這個階段，我們事實上要求檢察官從重的來求刑，還有能夠符合羈押的要件，檢察官也要儘量的羈押，所以我們去年度羈押的比例已經超過前年度將近一倍的比例了。"],["顏委員寬恒：對於這些犯罪集團，我們絕對不能手軟，基層員警拼命在外面抓這些詐騙人員，但是抓一個放兩個，抓越多就放越多啦，我們看到你們的報告裡面分別都有提到包括成長率多少、詐團的補獲抓獲多少，羈押的人數也成長了多少，這相對的表示犯罪率一直在增加，詐騙集團數一直在增加，被詐騙的被害人也一直在增加，其實我們不是抓越多人越高興，表示現在我們社會上每天被詐騙集團詐騙的受害人相當多，有些是沒有浮上來。","另外還有很多資料，只是時間不夠，不只是我們知道的這些詐騙，包括從租屋平台，還有手機借錢，剛剛王世堅委員也有提到，融資集團跟詐騙集團合作做假投資，然後再讓詐騙集團來討債，對於這些部分，我希望所有的執法機關以及法務部一定要負起這個責任，好不好？尤其像剛剛提到的租屋平台，不管什麼都可以騙，包括連租屋都被騙，有騙錢的、騙感情的，連遊戲帳號和很多電子支付、電商平台都有案例，尤其現在已經到了報稅的季節，這些報稅、退稅系統，還有電話通知退稅等等，民眾要如何防範？我們看到你們編了很多的費用去做這些宣導，但是有沒有落實？宣導的成效如何？這部分我想大家還要再努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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因為我們抓就抓不完啊對不對 你抓越多他放越多嘛"},{"start":331.566,"end":356.055,"text":"對,制度設計上法院判決檢察官是要監督他的判決,所以他判決...上面有錯,制度是這樣沒有錯對,我們檢察官會提起上訴這不能要求嗎?我們現在就是在要求法官法官還有檢察官一樣我們都在要求說從2020詐騙案件2.3萬件,今有42.5億2022年已經變2.9萬件,今有69.6億但是這個可能是有揭露的,更多的或許我們不曉得"},{"start":357.575,"end":382.667,"text":"我覺得應該是更多啦多到我們可能不知道的一個情況2023年一整年被詐騙的金額累積88.78億是創史上新高按照這個發展我想破百億今年可能就破百億了啦那像這種情況說這些詐欺的還有洗錢的正犯共犯不管犯了幾條罪都會被淨和成一條罪"},{"start":383.827,"end":402.66,"text":"會不會進了整條罪只要坦白然後最後法院再用緩刑的方式讓這些詐欺洗錢讓他們免去牢獄之災預算被一邊抓了又放人一根罰金緩刑更不要說啦齁這個加重"},{"start":403.881,"end":417.686,"text":"詐欺明明有組織犯罪的這些法條可以用不去適用新的法條然後法定刑是一年以上七年以下這些詐騙的都是集團式的一個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":419.059,"end":444.17,"text":"如果用新的法條怎麼可能每個都侵犯?是不是這樣子?各位報告就要區分他詐欺集團他是人頭賬戶的判決還是一般車手的判決一般車手的判決現在法院大概量刑都大概一年到兩年佔80%對對對所以我要講你剛剛講的說罪行不相當嘛對不對他所犯的罪他這個可是判的刑期相對的就是欸?沒兇動"},{"start":445.63,"end":468.731,"text":"所以我們認為說我們就是要來檢討說要怎麼樣來要求甚至於如果說法律不夠周延是不是要修法對不對那草案是不是要送過來立法院我相信這個全部的不分草原都會支持阿各位報告事實上我們在打詐專法就這個刑罰的威嚇性這部分我們是要研擬如何加強性的威嚇性那法務部你們可不可以要求檢察官從眾求刑"},{"start":469.631,"end":477.177,"text":"這沒有問題這跟委員報告在檢察官這個階段檢察官徵查起訴這個階段我們事實上要求檢察官從重的來求刑還有能夠符合羈押的要件檢察官也要盡量的羈押所以我們去年度羈押的比例已經超過前年度將近一倍的比例了"},{"start":495.465,"end":514.035,"text":"對於這些犯罪集團我們絕對不能手軟你基層的員警拼命的在外面都在抓這些詐騙的人員但是抓一個放兩個我們看到說你們的那個報告裡面有分別都有提到說這個"},{"start":516.417,"end":516.577,"text":"主席"},{"start":526.621,"end":547.296,"text":"表示犯罪率一直在增加、詐騙集團數一直在增加、被詐騙、被害人也一直在增加。所以我們不是說抓越多人我們越開心,這表示說現在我們的國情、我們社會上每天被這些詐騙集團、詐騙的這些受害人是相當的多,有些是沒有浮上來。"},{"start":549.117,"end":570.569,"text":"另外我們知道因為很多的資料時間也不夠不只是我們知道的這些詐騙包括從租屋平台還有我們手機上面的這些借錢剛剛王世堅委員也有提到這個用融資集團跟詐騙集團合作假投資然後再讓詐騙集團後面來追上來討賬"},{"start":578.773,"end":606.526,"text":"來討債這一些部分我相信我希望我們所有的執法機關我們法務部你們要要求然後呢一定要負起這個責任好不好因為我們台灣我們所有的國人尤其像我們剛剛提到的這個租屋的平台不管什麼都可以騙包括連租屋都被騙騙錢的騙感情的連遊戲帳號還有很多電子支付電商平台"},{"start":607.606,"end":633.78,"text":"這些都有,包括現在已經到了報稅的季節現在是報稅的季節,所以這些報稅退稅系統還有變化通知退稅的這一些我們要民眾要如何防範宣導,我們看到你們編了很多的費用去做這些宣導但是卻有沒有落實,宣導的成效如何這部分我想大家還要再努力好不好好謝謝"},{"start":637.263,"end":642.264,"text":"下一位質詢請吳立華部委員"}]}},{"id":"150359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bf813bdaa6a3a74150ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6c58aa13344394d615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:29:12 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11:38:24","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":552,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:38:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:29:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時29分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請龔主委？"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。我今天想要跟主委討論一下臺灣的移工政策，因為畢竟國發會是站在整個政策制定的比較上位階，然後負責去統整，把政策訂出來。主委，你知道現在臺灣的失聯移工可以說是非常的多，這個主委你清楚嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好像有不同的估算，好像有6萬、7萬、8萬這樣一些不同的數據。"],["蔡委員易餘：我這邊從移民署的是有一個8萬的數字，看起來男女都有，那這樣的失聯移工，主委，我想請問以臺灣的狀況，其他國家移工會有像這樣這麼多嗎？比例上。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：其他的國家像美國來講，它就有很多的偷渡客……"],["蔡委員易餘：美國偷渡客是比較特殊，因為畢竟它有邊界嘛！它是有邊界的問題；那臺灣不一樣，臺灣是一個海島國家，這樣的海島國家還會有失聯移工，那只有呈現一個狀況──政策問題，讓這些移工很有可能會選擇失聯，就是政策的問題。","所以我現在想進一步的跟主委講，移工他們飄洋過海來到臺灣，事實上就是一個目的，他們想要來臺灣賺錢，多賺一點錢，他們覺得臺灣的薪水夠，可以讓他們賺到錢後返回他們的國家，大概就是可以賺到比他原本國家還要多的錢。但是他來臺灣後會選擇失聯，有可能第一個，他受到不合理的勞動條件，他覺得遇到這位老闆，讓他做的工作超出他能負擔的，逼得說他不能待這裡。但是我們知道我們這幾年對於移工的政策，包括移工他可以選擇去更換他的雇主，這一點事實上如果遇到比較差的勞動條件，這個東西已經有辦法解決，不過還是會有這麼多失聯移工。","所以我要跟主委講，事實上對於移工政策，我具體建議，為什麼我們不能同意讓移工做第二份工作？為什麼他來臺灣就只能做那一份工作？假如他的雇主同意，他就他的正常工時之外，在假日禮拜六、禮拜天想到另外一個地方去做短期的工作，為什麼我們不能同意他做？為什麼我們就不能由國家，由勞動部也好，我們來成立一個類似人力派遣的公司，然後讓這一些移工經過雇主的同意之後，他可以去登記，登記後他可以選擇在禮拜六、禮拜天的時候，再另外做一份工作，這樣的話就會大大降低他想要逃跑、他想要變成失聯移工的誘因，主委，我這樣講有錯嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為移工一樣在我們勞動基準法的保障範圍之內，所以他每一個月、每一個禮拜的工作時間事實上也受到限制。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！工作時間是指在他的同一份工作會有勞動基準法，我現在也不是要打破勞動基準法，讓他變超時工作。基本上現在移工所有的工作條件，包括他的基本薪資、工時、加班上限，這個都要受到勞動基準法限制。但是移工如果在他的工作之外，想要兼差做第二份工作，他的雇主也同意，他可以在這個時間內多賺一點錢，為什麼不同意讓他做呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：也許我們來跟勞動部討論一下，但是這個還是不能違反勞基法，在勞基法的法律限制……"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我們不是要針對移工打破勞基法……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，所以如果是法律……"],["蔡委員易餘：我會講這個就是說，事實上在我們遇到很多現實的狀況……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我同意如果在勞基法的法律允許的彈性之下，是不是可以有這樣……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啊！在勞基法之外嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們來跟勞動部稍微討論一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我跟你說，像很多農業缺工，根本都是短期的缺工，在我們鄉下種菜頭的，要挖菜頭、挖蘆筍，那都是需要勞力密集，但是他的工作時間頂多就只有那一個月……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以如果那一個月可以去兼差，讓他們可以去兼著做，或者是去採茶，他可以兼差、他可以兼著做，平常的時候有他主要的工作，如果另外農忙的時候，他可以去幫忙一下。這對很多需要移工的人可以解決他的問題，對移工自己本身又可以增加收入，為什麼不可以呢？","沒關係，我的意思不是說要打破勞基法，我只是要跟主委說，我們應該再去思考，因為臺灣的缺工是很明顯的，缺工的狀況又很明顯的扎實的在社會所有的層次、所有的產業，跟他們講話，一見面就跟我們講缺工，缺工的問題我們沒辦法解決，我們現在說要開放更多移工，後來也都變成失聯移工，我覺得與其這樣，不如在政策上進一步去檢討看看有什麼樣的方式，讓移工到了臺灣很滿意，該賺的錢都有賺到，他們在勞力許可的時候，可以盡量去拚，不是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個部分是不是讓我們跟勞動部來討論一下，看看有什麼樣的想法，我們再回給委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，你們在討論這個議題的時候，應該有兩個層次，第一個就是臺灣事實上確實缺工，而且這個缺工絕對是我們現在開放的產業，我們開放很多項……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：農業的部分的確是缺工。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是有些產業還是有缺工的困難，例如飯店裡面缺的是哪一種？房務管理，它找不到本勞啊！本勞去做房務管理的意願越來越低，這個部分如果可以讓移工來幫忙，也是一個解決，但是這部分我們還沒有開放。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：服務業的部分因為勞動部有整體性的看法，但是我覺得農業這個部分比較單純，因為農業本來就有開放。"],["蔡委員易餘：農業本來就開放，但是產業呢？像我那天遇到做煙火的工廠，它是合法的煙火工廠，不是非法的，它的煙火甚至銷到美國迪士尼，結果煙火工廠說它們沒有辦法申請移工，全部都要請本國籍的，你也知道現在煙火工廠也很少人想去做。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它是一個特許的、比較敏感的。"],["蔡委員易餘：是敏感沒有錯，但是你讓它沒辦法請移工，它沒辦法生存啊！他也跟我說沒辦法生存，像這種不讓它有機會申請移工，我覺得很沒有意義啊！","第二個，現在我們限制移工只能單一雇主，這件事情移工也有很多自己的想法，他們如果想不出方法就是跑給我們追，變失聯移工，我覺得如果我們的政策能夠在符合勞基法的情況之下解決這些狀況，讓失聯移工減少，社會的安全、整體的安全性也可以在合理的監管之下，我覺得這是百利無一害，請你參考看看。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：農業的部分，我再跟勞動部討論看看。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們討論看看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","黃健豪、黃健豪，黃健豪委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","游顥、游顥，游顥委員不在。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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11:30:23","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":700,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:30:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:18:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時18分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。我們知道在全臺灣2,300萬人口裡面，全國勞動力約有1,000萬到1,192萬人，就業人數有1,145萬，這是廣大的族群，是勞動部要幫忙做服務照顧的對象。在勞動部主責的幾項重大業務裡面，其實我想最重要的目標就是要落實勞動的安全，同時也要透過很多有效的政策來減輕勞工的負擔。請問部長，您同意這個業務的重要性以及怎麼推廣嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員正旭：我們也知道，最近有兩個政策的確會對勞工的生活造成一些影響，包括央行升息、電價調漲，相信勞動部應該會有更多相關的因應措施來減少對勞工的影響跟衝擊，包括一般的貸款、房貸，以及因應電價上漲而帶來生活上的一些影響。請問部長，是不是有啟動相關的作為來幫助勞工朋友？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，關於央行升息半碼，我們已經針對疫情期間勞工紓困貸款的部分，全額補貼這半碼升息的負擔，勞動部全額補貼。另外，關於電費調整，當然4月1號要上路，上路之後對於勞工的實質薪資會不會受影響，這個部分也跟委員報告，我們今年上路的最低工資法，那個CPI就是消費者物價指數年增率，它是法定的應參採指標，那這個 CPI本身就包含這些民生消費的相關指數，像柴、米、油、鹽、水、電都在裡面，未來我們的最低工資審議，通常會在第三季的時候開會，到時候審議委員也會參酌這整個 CPI的年度漲幅，還有民生物價、生產物價的變動狀況，這些相關的部分，我們有10項的參採指標，會來作整體通盤的考量，我想我們這幾年來都是以照顧最基層、最邊際勞工的生活為我們基本工資調整的主要目標。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長的說明，其實上個禮拜陳院長也針對這部分要求各個相關部門研議來協助這些弱勢，當然勞工朋友不見得全部都是弱勢，不過相對來講，還是需要勞動部這邊給予更多的幫忙。","其實我們也知道，從111年起央行進行了6次升息，其中5次都由勞動部來做全額補貼，顯見勞動部針對減輕勞工負擔的這部分，真的有做了非常多的努力，除了這部分以外，我們知道貸款也的確對滿多勞動朋友造成一些影響，我們知道目前全國貸款的總數約有212萬人，其中應該大部分是廣大的勞工朋友，目前辦理的青安貸款的確是可以有所挹注，不過假設以1,000萬的房貸來看的話，每一年的利息會增加將近8,000元，這個對勞工朋友也是一個負擔，所以如果勞動部這邊有其他方案的話，我們希望能夠再協助。電價調整應該也多少會對勞工朋友造成一些負擔，可是我們擔心的是，其實這個實質的總薪資在這7年來反而是實質下降了1.04%，是11年來的最大減幅，所以這部分想要提醒部長，通常基本工資、最低工資只是一個因應的處理標準，對於未來物價波動的因素，能不能有辦法做成一個前瞻性的，不只是基本工資的調整，而是能夠針對勞工朋友做一個工資上重要的變動因素，可以讓大家未來在提升相關工資的時候做一個重要的參考因素，這部分不知道部長有什麼看法？"],["許部長銘春：其實最低工資是針對弱勢勞工，一般的勞工我們當然就是跨部會去努力，像經濟部就有加薪減稅的措施，它如果幫勞工加薪，就可以作為減稅的一個依據，所以這個都是希望透過各個部會的一些措施，能夠讓這個企業主把經濟果實分享給勞工，另一方面也能夠藉由這樣來減稅，減輕它的負擔，我想我們在各種政策工具上都會跨部會來努力。"],["王委員正旭：是，希望至少這部分的努力可以讓勞工朋友們有感。","再過來，我們討論一下有關安全衛生的部分，其實在今天部長的報告裡面，也提出很多有關安全衛生政策規劃的說明，本席要特別提醒的是，這些計畫或政策的落實，真的必須要改善現況，或者是在現場如何能夠維護到我們這些勞工朋友的安全，因為唯有在這樣的作業需求的要求之下，才能夠真的充分地保障勞工朋友的安全，不過在這個長久的工作過程裡面，其實他們的身體健康也必須要定時地去瞭解、掌握。上一次也有提醒部長，我們在質詢的部分，就是針對勞動安全，很希望真的能夠有機會去落實，尤其是對於一些高風險的場域，這一部分我們也瞭解很多勞工健檢的落實度其實是有需要再改善的，就是我們看到至少500家以上並沒有落實這些特殊健檢，對勞工朋友在長期工作之下造成的一些問題，我們知道有些醫療機構在做這些健康檢查時也需要再特別加強，針對這個部分，上次質詢時也請相關單位去了解，已經兩個禮拜過去了，不知道目前執行到哪個程度？"],["許部長銘春：我請鄒署長來說明。"],["王委員正旭：好，麻煩署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：非常謝謝委員的關心及垂詢，勞工健檢能有效了解他是哪個疾病，是不是工作影響而造成身體的疾病或症狀，所以勞工健檢是非常重要的。我們有一個勞工健檢醫院評核機制，分為A、B、C、D級，對於比較不好的C與D，我們會要求他們改善，第二年再評鑑的時候，如果還是沒有改善，我們會做後續的處置。所以讓勞工健檢能有效了解勞工的身體狀況，這是我們期待的正向循環，至於目前比較不理想的勞工健檢醫院，我們會再做後續的稽核。"],["王委員正旭：好，麻煩你們繼續加強這方面的要求。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["王委員正旭：針對職場勞動力的永續發展，其實部長在今天的報告中也談到要透過開發GRI403實務揭露指南等等，引領企業發展出超越法令的作為，可是我們發現目前實際的狀況，在國內企業GRI403揭露情形普遍性是不足的，還是希望勞動部能提出更有效的誘因與具體作為，改善永續經營的部分，那就麻煩部長了。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：最後有一個大家要共同面對或擔心的問題，也就是超時工作，我想大家都會有很多類似的感受，我們比較擔心的是剛剛提到的交通安全的部分。最近有一個案例，也是發生在高雄，這起遊覽車的車禍好像是連續開了15個小時，我們不知道連續開15個小時是一直坐在駕駛座上或是當中有其他的問題，不過，我相信所有大客車駕駛的工作除了影響到個人健康之外，也都是公共安全很大的威脅……"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員正旭：剛剛也有很多委員提到，目前駕駛的缺工也是非常的嚴重，譬如北市也說它的公車駕駛缺額逐年上升，我們也理解缺工是有一定因素的影響，很期待勞動部可以與交通部有效的去做相關的因應措施，讓這些辛苦的駕駛們除了在工作上更安全以外，也針對他的身體健康及各方面的勞動條件都能夠有效的改善，當然也要有好的稽查，以及如何讓這樣的安全措施可以更為落實。部長，能不能在此先說明一下努力的方向？"],["許部長銘春：像駕駛的工時問題，我們其實一直都非常重視，每年也都有專案的勞檢，檢查的結果也都提供給交通部，以此督促業者一定要做好法遵。另外，關於司機的缺工問題，因為主管機關在交通部，我們會尊重他們的決定。也因為這是屬於白領的專技人員，所以相關的資格、相關的條件及後續的協助，我們也都會幫忙，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，一起努力。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員，接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.29909375,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.011593750000003,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.49596875,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.74909375,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.78284375,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.816593750000003,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.86721875,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.39721875,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.68346875,"end":36.987218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.68659375,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.697843750000004,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.908468750000004,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.24534375,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.52721875,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.29596875,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.88909375,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.61034375000001,"end":99.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.15034375,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.21659375,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.41971875000002,"end":138.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.20346875,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.83534375000002,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.69971875000002,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.70596875,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.63284375,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.10346875000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.49909375000001,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.36596875,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20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謝謝部長的說明其實上個禮拜我們陳院長也針對這部分要求各個相關部門研議來協助這些弱勢當然勞工朋友不見得全部都是弱勢不過相對來講還是需要勞動部這邊給予更多的幫忙"},{"start":202.248,"end":213.924,"text":"其實我們也知道從111年起央行進行了6次的升息那這其中5次都有勞動部來做全額補貼這顯見說這部分勞動部針對減輕勞工的負擔真的有做非常多的努力"},{"start":219.911,"end":247.196,"text":"除了這一部分以外我們也知道貸款也的確影響到蠻多我們這個勞動朋友的一些影響我們知道目前全國貸款的總數又有212萬人其中應該大部分是廣大的勞工朋友那目前辦理的這個清案貸款的確是可以有所挹注不過假設以一千萬的房貸來看的話"},{"start":248.696,"end":275.136,"text":"每一年的這個利息會將近增加8000元這個對勞工朋友也是個負擔所以如果勞動部這邊有其他的這個方案的話我們希望能夠再協助那電價調整應該也是會多少對這個勞工朋友造成一些負擔可是我們擔心的就是其實這個實質的總薪資啊這7年來反而是實質下降了1.04%"},{"start":277.337,"end":303.116,"text":"十一年來的最低減幅所以這部分想要提醒部長就是通常基本工資最低工資只是因應一個處理的標準那對於未來物價波動的因素能不能有辦法做成一個前瞻性的不只是基本工資的調整而且是能夠針對勞工朋友做一個工資上重要的變動因素的這個可以讓"},{"start":304.637,"end":320.573,"text":"大家未來在提升相關的工資的時候一個重要因素的參考這部分不知道部長有什麼看法基本工資當然是最低工資是針對弱勢勞工那一般的勞工部分當然我們就是跨部會會去"},{"start":322.375,"end":328.523,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":339.538,"end":342.96,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":369.938,"end":393.184,"text":"也提出很多政策規劃的說明本席要特別提醒的是這些計畫或政策的落實真的必須要改善現況或者是在現場如果能夠維護到我們這些勞工朋友的安全因為我有這樣的作業需求的要求之下真的才能夠充分的保障勞工、勞動朋友的安全"},{"start":393.854,"end":417.608,"text":"不過在這個長久的工作過程裡面其實他們的身體健康也必須要去定時的去了解跟去掌握那上一次也有提醒部長我們在質詢的部分就是針對勞動安全是很希望能夠真的是有機會去落實那尤其是對於一些高風險的這個場域齁"},{"start":419.429,"end":440.809,"text":"那這部分我們也了解很多的這個勞工健檢的落實度其實是有需要再改善的就是我們看到至少500家以上並沒有落實這些特殊健檢對勞動朋友在他的這個長期工作之下造成了一些問題那這一部分"},{"start":443.271,"end":463.309,"text":"往下看知道有一些醫療機構在做這些健康檢查的時候也需要特別的加強這部分已經兩個禮拜過去了上一次的諮詢裡面也有請相關單位去做了解不知道目前有諮詢到哪一個程度"},{"start":463.769,"end":477.709,"text":"那我請周署長來詢問一下非常謝謝委員關心跟垂詢所以勞工健檢的有效的瞭解他是哪一個疾病是不是因為跟工作影響而造成的身體的疾病或是癥狀所以勞工健檢是非常重要所以我們就有一個勞工"},{"start":479.751,"end":505.284,"text":"勞工健檢醫院的那個平和機制,我們有A、B、C、D級那比較不好的像委員這樣錄出來C跟D我們會做要求做改善第二年在平建的時候如果還沒有改善我們還做後續處置所以讓勞工健檢的有效達到勞工的身體狀況這是我們期待這個正向的循環那有關比較目前還比較不理想的那個勞工健檢醫院我們會再做後面的那個集合"},{"start":506.175,"end":525.024,"text":"好 那就麻煩繼續要去加強最後面的要求那針對於這個職場跟勞動力的永續發展其實今天的報告裡面也部長也提到透過開發這個GRI403的食物、街路、自然等等來引領企業"},{"start":526.765,"end":547.766,"text":"發展出超越法令的作為可是我們發現目前實際的狀況在國內企業GI403揭露情形其實普遍性是不足的那這一部分勞動部這邊還是希望能夠提出更有效的優因跟具體作為來改善這個永續經營的部分"},{"start":548.566,"end":550.447,"text":"含報告事項20案及討論含報告事項20案及討論"},{"start":574.514,"end":589.463,"text":"高雄這個遊覽車的車禍好像是因為連續開15個小時他這個我們不知道這個連續開15個小時他是一直坐在他的駕駛座方向盤上還是當中有其他問題不過我相信所有的這個大客車的駕駛"},{"start":590.484,"end":616.12,"text":"他的工作除了影響他的個人健康以外那都是一個公共安全的一個很大的威脅那剛剛有很多委員提到目前真的這個駕駛的缺工也是非常嚴重這邊北市也說他們這個缺工的這個主額也是越來越上升那我們也理解這個缺工是有一定的這些因素的影響"},{"start":617.16,"end":630.737,"text":"那很期待我們這個勞動部可以跟交通部有效的去做相關因應的措施來讓這樣的對於我們的這些辛苦的駕駛們"},{"start":632.339,"end":654.925,"text":"除了他在工作上更安全以外也針對他的身體健康還有各方面的這些勞動條件都能夠有效的改善那當然也要有好的稽查還有如何能夠讓這樣的安全措施可以更為落實部長能不能也在這個在這邊先說明一下努力的方向"},{"start":656.085,"end":670.644,"text":"這個我想像駕駛的這個工時問題我們其實一直都非常重視每年都有專案的勞檢檢查結果都給交通部來去督促業者必須要法尊要一定要做那"},{"start":671.505,"end":698.712,"text":"另外就是我們其實關於司機的這個缺工的問題因為主管機關在交通部我們會尊重他們的決定那因為這個是屬於白領的專技人員所以相關的資格還有相關的條件那後續的這個協助我們也都來幫忙謝謝好那就一起努力好謝謝好謝謝王振旭委員"}]}},{"id":"150357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b654ea61846536d5f0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6b93d5744788e225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:22:40 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11:29:08","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":388,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:29:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:22:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時22分）謝謝召委，我們請國發會主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：何委員，早安。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。國發會號稱是我們政府的大腦，所以國家很多未來的發展跟規劃事實上是掌握在我們國發會手上。最重要的，現在一般人民最想望也最期待政府做的是，對於未來的展望，民生、經濟、產業、物價、通膨，到底政府能做什麼？你也知道我每次來到經濟委員會，只要碰到主委，我第一個一定都會問：你覺得我們今年的經濟景氣會不會好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是穩定的復甦當中，現在看起來還是這樣。"],["何委員欣純：所謂穩定的復甦，那個線是怎麼樣的爬？我坦白講，你也知道我的選區是在臺中，臺中的精密工業、基礎產業及製造業很多，非常完整的產業鏈都在中部，所以大家都在期待到底什麼時候景氣可以回春。剛剛珊珊有講了一句話，臺灣不能沒有台積電，但是臺灣也不能只有台積電，這可能是張忠謀先生講過的一句話。我把它套用過來，我一直講我們需要台積電這個護國神山，它幫助臺灣的股票衝上了2萬點，但是我們更需要護國群山，我們很多的中小企業、基礎工業、傳統製造業等等，因為他們照顧了在地最多最多的勞工、員工，所以這些家庭靠的、等待的是我們今年的景氣能不能回春，所以主委？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，我們上個月的景氣燈號一下子上漲了5分，到了綠燈，我們猜這個綠燈是有延續的一些效果。"],["何委員欣純：上去了變成綠燈，所以有延續……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對、對、對，綠燈就是……"],["何委員欣純：所以未來可以期待它可以再……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，主要就是說綠燈來講的話，第一波上來最好的還是電子業，看到AI或者是伺服器，但是傳統產業可能要稍微晚一點點，因為他們……"],["何委員欣純：那年底第三、第四季有沒有可能？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有可能，我們也看到機械公會的理事長他們說今年應該會比去年要好，就是說它的有一些……"],["何委員欣純：今年一定要比去年更好，因為去年是最慘、最慘，跌到谷底了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，它的存貨都去化了，慢慢有新的訂單進來。"],["何委員欣純：你知道去年的時候，我的選區產業鏈裡面中下游的加工工廠都是做三休四，我也跟經濟部王美花部長提過，一個禮拜做三天、休息四天，有的甚至做兩天、休息五天耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以為什麼去年……"],["何委員欣純：所以這個慘狀，我就想政府必須要出點力來協助啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以去年我們為什麼那麼鼓勵，包括機械業者趕快來申請疫後特別預算，然後調體質這個部分……"],["何委員欣純：不僅僅是機械業者，自行車產業也是啦！手工具產業去年也不好，今年也有慢慢的……我們是希望說是不是政府再大力的來支持，讓我們的產業跟在地的勞工心裡可以期待今年可以回春，這景氣很重要，因為它會牽動到內需市場裡面的民生問題，很重要，這是第一點。","第二點，接下來就是所謂的物價通膨，雖然過去我問王美花部長，他都告訴我說臺灣的通膨、物價的控制在全世界，甚至全亞洲算是不錯的；但是在一般民間大家心裡，這個物價、通膨還是讓大家感受到很難過。所以這個部分，我還是希望說國發會能夠再更努力一點，是不是透過跨部會其他什麼樣的措施可以來努力？尤其央行昨天還前天宣布升息半碼，就有中小企業和一般民間家庭來跟我反映了，薪水沒有漲，升息半碼影響的是什麼？車貸、房貸，所有只要有貸款、跟信用有關係的，只要跟利息有關係的統統漲價，可是薪水有跟著漲嗎？不見得耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，所以我們為什麼會有配套措施，就是說除了在大宗物資，我們就是延續……另外，因為因應升息的部分，包括中小企業的、包括紓困跟振興的貸款利息，我們還是吸收，讓它可以在這個過程當中比較順利。"],["何委員欣純：政府能夠吸收的是部分啦！有很大部分是政府接觸不到，或者是它沒有辦法申請到政府的扶助去補貼利息、去補助利息的啦！對於這大群的中小企業或傳產，我覺得政府還要再加把勁啦！這個又牽涉到我為什麼這樣講，因為我剛剛講的升息半碼，不是只有對中小企業、傳產，對一般家庭也是一個沉重的負擔。我看到一個名詞叫「在職貧窮」，在現代的臺灣，對於「在職貧窮」這件事，我們政府必須要好好的去面對跟思考如何去解決，我想對於現在的年輕家庭，更是有這樣子的想法跟感受，那政府怎麼支持他們？這很重要啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果他第一間有用青安貸款，這個部分我們也吸收了。"],["何委員欣純：我請主委再給我一個書面報告。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛這樣子順序講下來，這個都是環環相扣，對臺灣來講，這是政府未來的國力，為什麼？如果「在職貧窮」這件事情政府沒有辦法有效因應跟協助解決的話，我們的少子化只會越來越嚴重。少子化是一個嚴肅的課題，我也希望主委再給我一個書面的報告，我希望知道說政府在少子化對策裡面，到底能夠有什麼更積極的作法，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":78.083,"end":102.715,"text":"好那這邊本席今天要問今年清明年假四天的連續假期不管是返鄉還是掃墓出遊都會使交通運輸量大增那希望交通部能檢視輸運的能量那盡可能滿足滿足我們民眾的運輸需求之外也要提升交通安全那今年的輸運還有要補充的嗎有關雙鐵還有客運的部分的訂票情形交通部有掌握了嗎是"},{"start":103.675,"end":129.81,"text":"那個跟委員說明齁 那個慶兵節的聯繫計畫是跟其他的節日不一樣就是說很多人會提前回去掃墓所以我們這個慶兵節的輸入計畫是提早兩個禮拜開始事實上應該上個禮拜六就開始了就已經開始進行我們的這些相關包括閘道移控、閘道封閉等等的還有包括一些地區道路的疏導這個部分我們已經在進行中了"},{"start":132.363,"end":153.815,"text":"有建議去年中秋的輸入人潮多嘛那造成民眾苦等然後大排長龍的情形很多旅客現在寧願選擇搭高鐵也不搭台鐵那台鐵局今年也在正式改制掛牌國營台鐵公司那台鐵公司應該帶來新格局新氣象那是否能夠提升旅客的信心是"},{"start":154.475,"end":169.552,"text":"我們事實上那個改制公司今天1月1號以後我看他們董事長總經理都是到處跟員工做很多的相關在安全意義上的討論我是覺得整個那個活力我已經看出來了"},{"start":170.373,"end":193.523,"text":"市民們確實分擔連續假期還有我們那個西部交通兼輸運輸的重者嗎對他們是扮演很重要角色尤其是中短途的部分是扮演很重要角色那這部分當然就是說對台鐵的負負品質跟準點這部分是我們的確要繼續加強的部分這個部分也請這個台鐵公司已經盡力在這個執行"},{"start":196.425,"end":203.651,"text":"有關3月20日的檢討報告接下來出入境旅客將會大增有沒有做好準備?"},{"start":205.23,"end":228.439,"text":"〉〉〉〉〉〉〉〉〉"},{"start":228.439,"end":256.203,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":257.679,"end":274.733,"text":"臺鐵還是臺鐵臺鐵對就是不管是鐵公路啦如果有些比如說這個外務入侵比如說人入侵等等的發生一些狀況在臺鐵也有他的標準作為程序比如說如果中斷的時候他的"},{"start":275.633,"end":288.76,"text":"介博車就會開始來執行高速公路的部分就是發生事故是造成研製很重要的原因他們在相關的偷調還有分區的駐點這部分也都會加強"},{"start":290.202,"end":313.736,"text":"OK好3週五電價確定漲價部長已經證實了台鐵公司在討論票價方案外那大眾運輸工具也可能調漲那TPAS的票價不變那國道客運如果漲價短途由TPAS月票吸收沒錯吧是那中長途會做部分補貼補貼是是是那請問補貼的部分會動用什麼預算欸我們供應計畫就是說我們現在"},{"start":315.437,"end":328.407,"text":"呃在公益計畫有對於像像比如桃園的這些公車的虧損補貼購車補貼那我們就用這個預算來來支持這樣所以本身就有一個計畫在做本身就有一個計畫不用再新批一個一個計畫這樣"},{"start":330.154,"end":356.811,"text":"是那針對票價上漲如果部長您應該很為難如果真的調漲的話那服務品質跟安全舒適度要如何跟著提升對我是有的確我們在談上漲的時候是至少說服務品質跟您提的這個安全舒適也讓民眾有感我想這部分我持續跟各個客運業國道客運業來希望他們能夠加強台鐵的部分也會跟著提升嗎台鐵那個請董事長跟你說明"},{"start":357.994,"end":376.538,"text":"會,我們因為台鐵的票價其實很久都沒有調整那我們在這一次這個我們的研議中我們會把我們確保安全提升服務都納進來是那部長這邊還有一個問題就是國道2號偵測中路交流道這個部分"},{"start":384.171,"end":400.323,"text":"我這邊補充報告就是說中路教導部目前可行性桃園市政府辦理的可行性評估報告已經報院核定中目前在等行政院最後的核定那這個部分的話因為是當時桃園市政府有承諾就是說他必須要配合中路的那個那個區政計畫來"},{"start":402.825,"end":425.849,"text":"取得他的用地之後來提供砸到來施工所以我們這個工程啊未來會辦理那個整個一個規劃設計之後會等待就是說他的用地提供之後我們才可以來辦因為有搭配的包括連絡道路一起來做起來所以是用地取得之後確定之後再做核定不是可行性的部分可以先核定OK那預計什麼時候可以核定一定要等他用地取得之後"},{"start":426.149,"end":428.954,"text":"那預計﹖我們不知道因為他看桃園市政府"}]}},{"id":"150355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bec037d40307563f5cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6560638d44777d3585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:10:16 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那800台到今年也只裝了241台"},{"start":370.869,"end":397.02,"text":"你當時要做的這個部分跟委員報告一下就是到上禮拜裝了262台然後3月底要求裝到400台那到4月底會裝到這800台交通部自己打折喔原本你的計畫是2400台要裝喔對不對後來呢3年來只裝了所謂目標變為800台結果只裝了240幾台那我問你全台灣有多少多台的大車跟委員報告全台灣有18萬輛大車啦"},{"start":402.603,"end":420.052,"text":"為什麼大家持續的要求每次發生車禍慘劇那交通部都說要檢討你看一下那個表每年死傷人數車禍的件數每年都增加那你怎麼處理"},{"start":421.912,"end":424.534,"text":"大車每一次肇事都是非常慘重 有那麼多的悲劇發生了"},{"start":443.908,"end":464.699,"text":"那你們交通部針對這個問題我們在立法院追了那麼多年你提出那麼多計畫也花了那麼多錢甚至於連這個視野輔助系統還產生一個什麼獨一無二八合一還要自己研發然後呢說試驗要2400也做不到研發時間拖了很久然後要裝的車輛數啊"},{"start":466.434,"end":480.678,"text":"自己降低2000降到800有執行不了然後你看每年發生件數、死傷人數持續增加部長你這部你敢督促一下我的督促我想說現在821弄好了就趕快加速來安裝"},{"start":484.204,"end":484.785,"text":"你不要跟我搗蛋就好啦"}]}},{"id":"150354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b2ff428a6f472ec3ccabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a60ed51fbfb97caa545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:02:19 - 11:10:09","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":470,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:10:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:02:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時2分）謝謝召委陳雪生委員，我們是不是請部長？"],["主席：部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["王部長國材：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：事實上我們今天這個特別條例要講到花東快，我之前曾經聽你提到花東快在109年的時候開始重啟可行性評估。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["何委員欣純：到目前為止，這樣是第幾年？"],["王部長國材：從109年到現在113年。"],["何委員欣純：所以可行性評估到底什麼時候會有一個定案？"],["王部長國材：已經到期末報告，8月會有期末報告出來。"],["何委員欣純：我必須要講這件事是因為我也可以理解為什麼大家認為花東地區的交通建設是這麼的要緊，因為我們也希望交通平權，我們希望讓臺灣不管在哪一個角落、哪一個地方，真正能夠做到交通便利，給一條安全回家的路。花東快的可行性評估今年可能會有一個答案，我也希望依法規、依制度趕快來推動跟編列預算。我就想到什麼？我們臺中的台8線──中橫，中橫也是在今年（113年）2月16號終於核定了可行性研究，可行性才核定而已，而且中橫公路是從921封路到現在，已經24年了，當然我知道它有環境、生態上斷層帶的因素，所以在環境影響的情況之下，是很需要考量的，因為是安全的問題，我每年都會走這一條路進去大梨山地區，去關心我們的農民、關心我們的市民，我們就想到，一條中橫公路24年了，今年2月16號核定了可行性，我要跟部長講，從921到現在24年，現在台8線還在管制，這個管制影響的是什麼？我相信你也知道，影響的是在地居民的醫療、教育、農民、觀光，很多產業都一樣。一直以來，我們都認為在安全為上位前提之下，能夠儘快的修復中橫公路台8線，起碼讓醫療、讓農民的水果運輸、讓觀光可以復甦、可以更好，部長，這個你認為對嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，中橫公路可行性通過會拖那麼久，是因為它有一段時間讓整個地形、地貌穩定。"],["何委員欣純：這個我承認，這個我也認為應該要。"],["王部長國材：所以它當時有休息一陣子，我們當時評估是在115年會穩定，所以我們就開始啟動，就是配合工期從115年開始，所以時間比較長一點。的確，像剛才談到中橫它的環境，如果你沒有考慮好，做完就又崩塌，那永遠都做不好，所以我們是有這樣一個很嚴肅、很專業的評估才來啟動。"],["何委員欣純：是，我尊重專業、尊重技術的進步，我也尊重安全是最重要的，但是居民還是希望能夠快。"],["王部長國材：是，我們會加速，目前是可行性通過，包括相關的後續，初步預估是民國126年才會完工，我希望快一點。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！我也希望這個期程能快一點，整個經費總共兩百多億，我相信預算不是問題，重點是在於時間，我們如何跟時間賽跑，如何在安全的前提之下，可以趕快修復，能提多早就多早，我想是所有大梨山地區居民的想望跟期待。我為什麼會特別講這個東西？為了建置牙醫巡迴醫療站，我上個禮拜去了一趟和平區自由國小，為什麼必須要建置牙醫巡迴醫療站？因為在那一個偏鄉要看一個牙醫很困難，在偏鄉、在部落裡面，有的是老人家，有的是小孩子，我們就這麼幸運，也非常有福氣，大臺中的牙醫師公會願意派駐11個醫師輪流上去，設置了牙醫巡迴醫療站。甚至我在跟他們討論的過程當中，目前大梨山地區還沒有牙醫進駐，大臺中醫師公會也跟我講，在衛生福利部和交通部的支持之下，交通如果可以的話，他們也願意去大梨山地區設一個牙醫巡迴醫療站，部長，如果來開協調會，你支持嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在偏鄉的幸福巴士，我們是非常的支持，尤其我個人是把它當我施政最重要的部分，如果有需要，包括相關的購車補貼和虧損補貼，我們都可以處理。"],["何委員欣純：我必須要拜託交通部也重視這一件事情，我是在幫和平區、幫大梨山地區爭取設置一個牙醫巡迴醫療站，如果成行的話，我想不是只有牙醫，而是其他科別的醫療服務都可以進駐，也能夠提供更專業、更好的醫療服務，還有衛教資源可以進駐山區、偏鄉地方，好不好？這是第一個。"],["王部長國材：我覺得這種偏鄉的服務要靠我們的交通來運輸，這個我們來處理。"],["何委員欣純：因為交通必須要能夠先解決，他才進得了，對不對？"],["王部長國材：瞭解，我們也會來支持。"],["何委員欣純：第二個是教育，我去梨山這麼多次，去看過梨山國小、梨山國中，全國最高的國中小風景很漂亮，生活環境很優雅，但是問題是什麼？通學就學的交通是個大問題，現在我們當然是靠學校的交通車，可是孩子如果國中畢業之後要外出去念高中職，他要外出去念大專院校，交通重不重要？交通還是一個最重要的因素，因為這會關係到他未來的升學問題，還有就職就業的問題。","接著，大梨山地區農民的水果運輸重不重要，一年一收，好不容易種了這麼一年，有那麼一次的收成，要怎麼運下來，能夠用最短的時間，可以把最新鮮的蔬果送到消費者手上，靠的也是交通。我跟他們座談的時候，他們也是在期待，所以我再拜託部長，我的時間到了，我今天從中橫台8線這件事情來告訴你從人為本，交通就是要以人為本，在安全最上位的第一優先考量之下，如何以人為本趕快進行中橫的復建工程，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，我們加速。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託部長，謝謝部長。"],["王部長國材：沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：請林委員俊憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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事實上我們今天這個特別條例要講到花東快那我想花東快在我之前曾經聽你提到就是109的時候開始重啟可行性評估那到目前為止這樣是第幾年就109現在113"},{"start":36.785,"end":62.03,"text":"所以可行性評估到底什麼時候會有一個定案我必須要講這件事是因為我也可以理解為什麼大家對於花東地區的交通建設是這麼的要緊因為呢我們也希望交通平權我們希望讓台灣不管在哪一個角落哪一個地方真正能夠做到交通便利那給一條安全回家的路"},{"start":63.51,"end":78.266,"text":"我看到花東快的這個可行性評估今年可能會有一個答案那我也希望說在這個一法規一制度還有呢競速的趕快來推動跟編列預算我就想到是什麼我們台中的台八縣縱橫"},{"start":79.847,"end":93.872,"text":"中衡也是在今年113年2月16日終於終於合併了可行性研究可行性才合併而已而且中衡公路是從921封路到現在已經24年了"},{"start":95.733,"end":119.866,"text":"當然我知道他有他的環境生態上斷層帶的因素所以在環境影響的情況之下是很需要考量的因為是安全的問題我每年都會走這一條路進去大梨山地區去關心我們的農民關心我們的市民那我們就想到一個中橫公路"},{"start":122.027,"end":142.861,"text":"24年了我們現在呢今年2月16號合定的可行性我要跟部長講從921到現在24年現在台八縣還在管制那這個管制影響的是什麼我相信你也知道影響的是在地居民的醫療教育農民觀光很多產業都一樣"},{"start":144.11,"end":163.768,"text":"那所以一直以來我們都認為說在安全為上位前提之下能夠盡快的修復中橫公路台八線那起碼讓這個醫療讓農民的水果運輸讓觀光可以復甦可以更好那部長這個你"},{"start":165.289,"end":179.041,"text":"你認為對嗎?綜合公路這個可行性通過會拖那麼久是因為他有一段時間讓這個整個地形地貌穩定所以他當時有休息一陣子所以我們應該當時評估是在115年會穩定所以我們就開始啟動就是配合工期從115開始那所以他比較長一點"},{"start":191.391,"end":216.556,"text":"那的確就是說像剛才談到中衡他的環境如果你沒有考慮好做完就又崩塌那永遠都做不好所以我們是有這樣的一個很嚴肅很專業的這個評估我尊重專業尊重這個技術的進步那我也尊重安全是最重要的但是居民還是希望能夠快"},{"start":217.276,"end":231.669,"text":"是我們要加速他目前是可能通過來這個包括相關的後續他初步民國126年才會完工那我希望快一點是啊我也希望這個期程能快一點這整個經費總共200多億"},{"start":234.611,"end":259.038,"text":"那我相信預算不是問題重點是在於時間我們如何跟時間賽跑如何在安全的前提之下可以趕快的來修復那能提多早就多早我想是所有大黎山地區居民的想望跟期待啦我為什麼特別講這個東西我3個禮拜去了一趟同樣是和平區自由國小為了什麼為了建制"},{"start":260.219,"end":288.757,"text":"牙醫巡迴醫療站為什麼必須要建制牙醫巡迴醫療站因為在那個偏鄉確實要看一個牙醫很困難那在偏鄉在部落裡面他有的是老人家有的是小孩子那我們就這麼的幸運也非常有福氣大台中的牙醫師公會願意呢派住11個醫師輪流上去設置了這個牙醫的這個"},{"start":289.798,"end":315.031,"text":"巡迴醫療站甚至我在跟他們討論的過程當中目前大黎山地區還沒有牙醫進駐台中醫師公會也跟我講他們如果可以在衛生福利部的支持之下跟交通部的支持之下交通如果可以的話他們願意去大黎山地區去設一個牙醫巡迴醫療站部長如果"},{"start":317.012,"end":329.917,"text":"來開協調會你支持嗎各位有沒有看到現在這個偏鄉的幸福巴士我們是非常的支持尤其我個人是把它當我施政最重要部分如果有需要包括相關的購車補貼跟這個虧損補貼我們都可以處理"},{"start":333.319,"end":349.019,"text":"﹖"},{"start":349.079,"end":375.737,"text":"是其他科別的醫療服務都可以進駐也能夠提供更專業的更好的一個醫療服務還有衛教資源可以進駐在山區偏鄉地方好不好這第一個我覺得這種偏鄉的服務靠我們交通來因素因為交通必須要能夠先解決啊他才進得了啊瞭解 對不對是不是我在第二個為什麼要再講第二個教育"},{"start":376.932,"end":392.184,"text":"我去梨山這麼多次去看過梨山國小梨山國中在最高最高全國最高的國中小風景很漂亮啊生活環境很優雅但是問題是什麼他的通學就學的交通是個大問題啊"},{"start":394.225,"end":422.513,"text":"現在我們當然是靠學校的交通車可是孩子呢如果國中畢業之後他要外出去念高中職他要外出去念大專院校交通重不重要交通還是一個最重要的因素嘛因為這會關係到他未來的升學問題嘛還有就職就業的問題嘛接著大梨山地區農民的水果運輸重不重要"},{"start":423.613,"end":423.733,"text":"新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":453.593,"end":465.25,"text":"在安全的最上位的第一優先的考量之下我們如何以人為本趕快來進行綜合的復建工程好不好再拜託部長好謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"150353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1a77a964d0b1e9150ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6db6c44fb71603f565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:16:30 - 11:22:38","影片長度":"00:06:08","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":368,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:22:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:16:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我想請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：黃委員，早安。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我想國發會的組織法講得很清楚，行政院為辦理國家發展的規劃、協調、審議、資源分配業務，特設立國發會，所以國發會應該是在行政院轄下對於國家未來發展的一個上位、甚至全面性的規劃者，甚至是國家的國政規劃師，你同意嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的問題是，我們到目前為止全世界碰到的臺灣的困難，我想大家也都講過很多次了，現在面臨到的美中對抗、貿易壁壘，還有俄烏戰爭、能源短缺以及通膨，還有減碳的需求。另外，臺灣8年前蔡政府上任時講五缺，現在還在討論五缺，你覺得8年來我們的經濟狀況有任何的改變嗎？或者是我們的股票點數很高，但是薪資成長顯然不夠，最嚴重的是數位轉型緩慢，還有未來的減碳目標不明確，所以主委，臺灣有沒有一個比較完善的經濟安全法規？我今天要問的是，如果我們是目前外媒說世界上最危險的區塊，面對這些全球的挑戰，我們有沒有一個完善的經濟安全相關制度跟法規？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我想經濟安全當然是很重要，所以從2016年開始，我們就嘗試不要把所有的經濟太過依賴單一的市場……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，張忠謀說，雖然現在台積電在臺灣蓋廠如火如荼，這是國安的考量，但是同樣的，臺灣不能沒有台積電，但是臺灣也不能只有台積電。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：張忠謀也說，全球化跟自由貿易幾乎已經死掉了，所以現在是區域經濟，還有個別我們怎麼去面對全球的問題。另外就是在這樣的美中對抗的情況下，我們對於潛在的風險是不是要在制度上面做些調整？日本有一個經濟安全基本法，臺灣目前有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：目前我們的作法還是把臺灣嵌在國際的供應鏈裡面，越是不可或缺的話，臺灣就越安全，除了我們壯大我們自己之外……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我現在講的是我們對於半導體，經濟安全保障法是我們民眾黨在總統大選的時候提出來的，也就是說，我們整個國家沒有一部完整的法規來去規範我們基本的重要物資、基礎建設的核心要做什麼樣的配備，比如說台積電接下來要再蓋10個廠，我們的水跟電夠不夠？我們水跟電的這些基本配備夠不夠？還有我們碰到相關資源短缺的時候要怎麼辦？我們現在大部分的電都來自於天然氣，我們降低了臺灣的能源韌性，接下去可能會有非常非常多類似的問題不斷出現，所以我認為臺灣經濟安全保障法是一個基本法，這在日本早就已經訂定了，而且它有國家的目標。在臺灣，我們從國發會提出的，我剛剛聽到你說你只是個協調的單位，我聽完滿身冷汗，你不應該只是個協調的單位，你應該是引領國家發展的國政規劃單位。經濟安全是不是國家最重要的事？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，您後面這五項基本上都有個別的方案，我們也做了一些管考、做了規劃，方案……"],["黃委員珊珊：有方案但是沒有上位的法規……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：的確是沒有……"],["黃委員珊珊：學界也在說希望有一個經濟安全保障法。經濟安全保障法可以有四個方向，第一個是重要物資的穩定供給，還有核心基礎建設的穩定發展，最後才是這些核心技術要保留在臺灣。所以我認為經濟安全保障法可能是你國發會接下來在未來的新政府，在未來的四年可能就要先把經濟安全保障當成第一要務，作為國家整個經濟安全保障的最上位規範，接下去才是下面的你要蓋什麼、你的水跟電要怎麼配置、天然氣要怎麼配置、能源要怎麼配置、基礎建設要怎麼做。我們可以比照新加坡，他們的主權基金很早就開始投資石油、橡膠，甚至投資衛星，接下來他們有確保他們國家在經濟安全上面不會受到外界的影響，我希望臺灣能夠有這樣的法規，希望國發會把它當成最重要的未來的規劃，好嗎？主委？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不同的方案跟規劃……"],["黃委員珊珊：還是你沒有辦法承諾我？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，要不要制定這個法，我想可以討論啦，但是你講的那些東西都很重要，各部會跟我們跨部會也在協調、是有在做的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望訂出一個基本的要求，而且變成是一個國家未來長期建設，5年、10年，而不只是3年、5年，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，我們現在規劃就是2030年及2050年的相關事項，包括淨零也是，做長期的規劃。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望它能夠入法，如果我們有一個這樣的法，就不會捉襟見肘，拿東牆補西牆，我們常常是拿東牆補西牆，然後突然發現這個不夠了再去想辦法，我想經濟安全保障法是一個最基本的，拜託主委。謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。接下來請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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11:20:37","影片長度":"00:14:24","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":864,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:20:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:06:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時6分）對啦，我質詢完是應該讓他們休息啦，因為我會很不客氣的。主席，我要請數發部今天的代表。"],["主席：請數發部李次長。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。你是數發部次長？"],["李次長懷仁：是。"],["王委員世堅：今天6個部會都來了，我看了你們的報告，我覺得你們的報告寫是寫得密密麻麻，但是我用四個字「天馬行空」來形容。你們去年才推的「.gov.tw」這個系統就已經被詐騙集團識破、侵入，而且用來欺騙我們的民眾說交通罰款逾期未繳，用這個方式來詐騙。此事才剛被揭發，結果你們死性不改，這一次在這個報告裡面，你們竟然又推一個什麼111政府專屬短碼簡訊平臺。這個短碼簡訊平臺很簡單，就是說有個111為前提，那民眾就應該相信這個簡訊是從政府來的。這麼幼稚！你連那個「.gov.tw」都被詐騙集團運用了，要加個「111」？拜託！我待會就發個簡訊給你，看你信不信，莫名其妙！去年你這個錯誤，警政署在防騙宣導就說「.gov.tw」這個網址不能相信，不到一年，你今天又搞這個，所以我送你數發部八個字「裝神弄鬼，欺世盜名」。你搞這個111，你要搞多少錢呢？你光第一期的建置費就要花1,200萬，拜託！詐騙集團不用花1萬塊就把你破解了啦！","我不曉得成立你們這個部在幹什麼！你看看今天來的部會，雖然他們的成績不是很棒，我就講我們的金融體系，主管金融體系的金管會，他們至少有他們的專業，他們至少時時刻刻知道說，「啊！做錯了，檢討反省」，你們呢？天之驕子嗎？所以我懶得讓你回答了啦，我看你那個嘻皮笑臉的樣子，你今天沒打瞌睡就已經阿彌陀佛了啦。所以時間暫停，你回去。"],["李次長懷仁：委員，我從來沒打過瞌睡。"],["王委員世堅：沒你說話的份啦！"],["李次長懷仁：我沒打過瞌睡。"],["王委員世堅：你就是打過！我沒看過這麼惡劣的官員。","主席，時間暫停，我生氣個3秒鐘。"],["主席：委員在質詢的時候，千萬不要嘻皮笑臉，他為什麼那麼生氣呢？為什麼別人就不會？你要看看那個錄影的畫面，就是嘻嘻笑笑的，如果你沒有就不會講你嘛！"],["王委員世堅：我晚一點把你打瞌睡的鏡頭畫面傳給你，等一下我的助理會傳給你，你好好檢討反省。","好，主席，我請金管會的黃主委。"],["主席：好，請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：黃主委，我上次在講販售金融商品、債券、基金給我們的菜籃族、媽媽族、上班族等等，讓他們來承擔這麼大的風險，在我提了這個部分之後，又發現這裡面在銷售這些金融商品的第一名竟然是中信，中信靠著賣這些理財商品賺了這麼多的手續費，另外前四名加起來所賺的錢也沒它多啦！那我今天要跟你談中信，我認為它是三冠王啦！它不只是理財商品賣得最多，它所賣的理財商品爭議也最多，在投訴案件裡面，它一家大概就占了一半，最糟糕的是第三項，它竟然是詐騙案裡面涉案警示戶最多的，我相信黃主委你知道，這不是我們隨便說說，也不只是統計，新北的余檢察長就說了，涉案警示戶最多的就是中信，它是涉案警示戶最多的第一名，第二名到第五名加起來也沒有它多就對了，所以我說中信是三冠王啦！中信已經成了詐騙集團的最愛，我想它那一句「We are family」大概就是指它跟詐騙集團吧！它們是family。黃主委，我今天要跟你提的就是，事實上，對中信內稽、內控的查察，我不曉得你們查得怎麼樣，是還要任這個金融怪獸在那邊繼續有那麼多鬆懈的內稽、內控，然後讓詐騙集團得以在那邊開戶？還是你們有什麼積極的作為呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：首先感謝委員您對這個議題的關心，我們非常尊重、尊敬，其實中信因為早年分行多、很便民，所以它的戶數很多，的確如您所說的，它開始警示帳戶很多，所以從那時候開始，我們對警示帳戶多的幾家銀行就專案列管，要求它定期改進，在去年它有一個案子是分行的行員配合詐騙集團，對這部分我們也都有做處分。"],["王委員世堅：我正想要講，就是我在螢幕上放的這個照片。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們都有做處分了，都有做處分。"],["王委員世堅：它過分到連它的行員都勾結詐騙集團，這個已經是很荒唐、很離譜，而且桃園地方法院都已經判刑了，所以我認為，中信在那邊廣為宣傳它自己防詐騙做得多好，對這個部分，我們官方不要背書，可以嗎？要不然又讓我們更多的存款戶、我們的市民朋友們因為不曉得，所以又跟著被捲入、又被欺騙了，可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，委員，我們會照您的提示去處理，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：然後不遑多讓的是這些融資公司，我在前兩個禮拜有跟你提嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：非常感謝委員關心這個議題，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：對，我知道你們有在處理了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們有遵照您的指示去積極處理。"],["王委員世堅：對，確實有。當然啦！這三大除了有開始略做收斂以外，它們也對我個人來攻擊，這個我就不提了，那個就算了！但是我覺得很傷腦筋的是這些融資公司竟然它們的從業人員也勾結詐騙集團，天啊！這更可怕，他們勾結詐騙集團，然後讓被害者在不知不覺當中竟然要跑來向租賃公司融資，而且融資的金額也都是相當金額以上，所以內神通外鬼，你沒錢被騙沒關係，租賃公司幫忙你，把錢借給你，讓你去被騙，天啊！被騙了以後很傷腦筋，因為除了被騙的這些金額，後續5年、10年、20年都要被租賃公司的高額利息、高利貸壓榨，天啊！竟然有這樣子的事情，我不曉得你知不知道，我收到很多投訴，事實上，在上個月我的研究室還辦了一場這樣子的協調會，就是協調受騙戶，他受騙了，結果這個金額很大，怎麼會有那麼多錢被騙？他家裡的人、他爸爸自己也不相信，覺得很奇怪，小孩子還在讀書，怎麼會有那麼多錢被騙？原來就是向這些不肖的租賃公司借款，然後進行勾結、在那邊穿針引線的就是它們的從業人員，所以對這個部分你是不是應該加強管理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，報告委員，其實您也知道，在我第一天拜會您的時候，您就關心這個問題，那您提到這個問題，我回來就跟銀行局講，所以後來其實我們另外有一些影片出來，其實在那之前我們就有做一些對融資公司的措施，您今天垂詢的有關它們員工所涉及的一些行為，我們上次在財委會已經有報告三項措施，我想我們有足夠的資源可以對它的行為，包括授信、它的風管，包括它的財務各方面，包括營業模式，去要求它提出一些改善的方案，我們會積極努力，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好，積極努力啦！好不好？尤其我說的這三家最大的跟我們的銀行體系融資了5,000億元，跟銀行體系融資以低利息來便宜的借錢，然後它放高利貸借給需要的借款人、消費者，這是很不道德的事情。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，尤其是在消保方面我們會特別加強。"],["王委員世堅：我們銀行體系有那5,000億可以借人，也同意要消費貸款的話，那銀行體系就直接貸款給消費朋友們，不是這樣子嗎？利息又合理，然後至少在管理帳戶上、追討帳戶上面不會找討債公司，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您的垂詢非常正確，我們會鼓勵銀行體系也對這些客戶提供一些信用，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：主席，抱歉，我再講1分鐘，因為剛才我看到數發部就火大了，我本來剛剛應該問他一個問題，我懶得問他了，剛好順便，我就請黃主委你們處理一下。今天我們提了這一個題目，就是所謂的防詐1.5這個新版本防詐成效的檢討，結果我從Google上面搜尋，看到有一則廣告跟我們政府現在要公布的這個1.5版策略竟然是同框，這個策略是什麼？請你看一下螢幕，這個是「洗錢防制法的刑事詐欺案律師─爭取刑責判最低、上百件成功案例」，你有沒有看到？這個是幫我們要打擊的詐騙集團來脫罪，幫它們的車手、水手、取簿手，這樣子的廣告竟然跟我們政府要宣布的現在防詐的政策作法擺在一起。黃主委，這個部分是不是你努力一下？你回去要立刻有所行動，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們到平臺上看看這個律師，我聽過這些事情，我們覺得……"],["王委員世堅：你聽過這些事，最不可忍受的是他的廣告大剌剌的跟我們的政策擺在一起，他在挑釁我們嗎？或者是說政府有這樣的政策，民眾關心，政府招來這個訊息的收聽、收視者，招過來以後讓他們來做生意，是這樣子嗎？荒唐！我認為這件事情，我對數發部已經早就沒有任何寄望了，黃天牧主委，我們大家對你都還有所期許，你回去處理看結論怎麼樣，跟本會還有跟本委員做一個說明好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們跨部會都有合作，我想我們到平臺上去反映這個問題，來看看怎麼處理，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請顏委員寬恒發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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這個我上次在講這個販售金融商品債券基金然後販賣給我們的菜籃族、媽媽族、上班族等等讓他們來承擔這麼大的風險那這個部分我提了之後又發現這裡面"},{"start":294.522,"end":317.01,"text":"在銷售這些金融商品第一名的竟然是中信那中信靠著這個這麼多的理財手續費那麼他們賺的錢是大概另外前四名加起來"},{"start":318.123,"end":319.004,"text":"他竟然是詐騙案裡面涉案警示戶最多的啦!"},{"start":348.663,"end":362.29,"text":"我相信黃主委你知道這也不是我們隨便說說也不只是統計新北的檢察長啊於檢察長他就說了涉案警示物最多的就是他中信那"},{"start":365.606,"end":386.896,"text":"社案警示物多到他第一名第二名到第五名加起來也沒他多就對所以我說中信三冠王那他中信已經成了詐騙集團的最愛我想他那一句大概就是指他跟詐騙集團吧他們是family那"},{"start":390.1,"end":403.052,"text":"我今天要跟你提的這個就是說事實上對中信的內機內控的查查我不曉得你們查的怎麼樣是還要認命這個金融怪獸在那邊繼續有那麼多鬆懈的內機內控然後讓這個詐騙集團得以在那邊開戶"},{"start":414.648,"end":442.37,"text":"還是你們有什麼積極的作為呢?那個...黃主委首先感謝委員您對這個議題的關心我們非常尊重、尊敬其實中信因為早年它分行多它的很便民所以它的戶數很多的確如您所說的它開始警示帳戶很多所以從那開始我們對警示帳戶多的幾家銀行就專案列管要求它定期改進那去年它有個案子是分行的行員"},{"start":443.732,"end":444.473,"text":"他過分到連他的行員都勾結詐騙集團"},{"start":459.614,"end":486.331,"text":"這個已經是荒唐很離譜而且桃園地方法院都已經判刑了所以我認為中信至少啊至少他在那邊廣為宣傳他自己防詐騙做的多好這一個部分我們官方不要背書可以嗎要不然又讓更多的我們的存款戶我們的市民朋友我們不曉得又跟著被捲入又被欺騙了"},{"start":487.708,"end":495.489,"text":"可不可以?有委員我們會照您的提示去處理。謝謝。然後不遑多讓的是這些融資公司啦。"},{"start":496.493,"end":496.553,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":524.175,"end":527.549,"text":"我覺得很傷腦筋的這些融資公司竟然啊"},{"start":529.093,"end":557.406,"text":"他們的從業人員也勾結詐騙集團天吶這更可怕他們勾結詐騙集團然後讓被害者不知不覺當中竟然要跑來嚮注定公司融資而且融資的金額也都相當金額以上所以內神通外鬼你沒錢被騙沒關係注定公司幫忙你錢借給你讓你去被騙"},{"start":559.195,"end":584.417,"text":"天啊!被騙了以後傷腦筋耶!除了被騙這些金額後續五年十年二十年都要被租賃公司的高額利息高利貸壓榨他天啊!竟然有這樣子的事情我不曉得你知不知道我收到很多投訴那事實上上個月我還"},{"start":586.516,"end":606.515,"text":"研究室還辦了一場這樣子的協調會就是協調受騙物那他受騙結果這個金額怎麼有那麼多錢被騙他家裡他爸爸自己也不相信哇奇怪小孩子還在讀書怎麼有那麼多錢被騙啊原來就是像"},{"start":607.967,"end":608.087,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":628.9,"end":629.28,"text":"我們會積極努力,謝謝。"},{"start":655.623,"end":671.405,"text":"好,積極努力啦好不好,尤其我說就這三家最大的跟我們的銀行體系融資了五千億元,跟銀行融資體系來便宜的低利息界,然後他去高利貸。"},{"start":672.466,"end":690.093,"text":"放給需要的借款人消費者我們銀行體系有那五千億去借也同意要消費貸款的話就銀行體系直接貸款給消費朋友們不是這樣子嗎?利息又合理"},{"start":691.263,"end":698.991,"text":"然後至少在管理帳戶上追討帳戶上面他不會找討債公司不是這樣嗎我看到那個"},{"start":711.127,"end":713.568,"text":"今天我們這個題目所謂的防詐這個1.5這個新版本這個防詐的成效的檢討結果我從Google上面搜尋竟然"},{"start":738.905,"end":764.636,"text":"竟然有一則這個廣告跟我們政府現在要公佈的這個1.5版的策略竟然是同框吶這個策略是什麼你螢幕上看一下這個是洗錢防治法的刑事詐欺案律師爭取刑責判罪多上百件成功案例"},{"start":765.885,"end":792.517,"text":"你有沒有看到這個是幫我們要打擊的詐騙集團他們來脫罪了幫他們的車手、水手、曲步手這樣子的廣告竟然跟我們政府要宣布的我們現在防詐的政策做法這些擺在一起所以"},{"start":793.584,"end":819.102,"text":"那個黃主委這個部分是不是您努力一下你們立刻要回去有所行動好不好我們提到平台上看看這個律師我聽過這些事情我們覺得最不可忍受的他的廣告大辣辣的跟我們的政策擺在一起他在挑釁我們嗎或者是說政府有這樣的政策民眾關心政府招來這個"},{"start":823.813,"end":847.41,"text":"訊息的收聽收視者招過來以後讓他們來做生意是這樣子嗎荒唐我認為這件事情齁這個我對速發部已經早就沒有任何寄望了那個黃天牧主委我們大家對你都還有所期許你回去處理看結論怎麼樣那跟本會還有跟本委員做一個說明好嗎"},{"start":847.87,"end":848.191,"text":"休息5分鐘。"}]}},{"id":"150351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b82b82f79ffa149ede5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a68225e6885a7027b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:06:17 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11:18:40","影片長度":"00:12:23","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":743,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:18:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:06:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時6分）謝謝。請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：許部長，新冠疫情之前，公路客運營運的載客人數應該都超過千萬，現在疫情稍微比較趨緩，理論上算是已經結束了，可是目前的搭乘量也只到七成。但據我們瞭解，現在因為司機荒加上經營困難的問題，我們看到很多地方、很多縣市的公路駕駛員都很缺，像臺北、桃園的客運駕駛員人數都是非常短缺，而且造成很多營運上的問題，像是9089桃園到北市古亭，還有9103大溪到新北頂埔，5203A蘆竹南崁到北市，9005桃園到北市內科，都因為人力不足以及營運不善造成很多路線停駛，甚至要加班、加開路線也沒辦法，請問你們知不知道現在公路客運駕駛員的缺額大概有多少？"],["許部長銘春：這個可能交通部比較清楚，因為權責機關是交通部。"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係。根據聯合報所做的數據，交通部在111年時有招募大概4,800人，但只招募到一千四百多人，不到三成，臺北市也說他們目前的缺額大概是700人，桃園市也缺額兩百多人。而且最近桃園市為了解決司機荒，還特別祭出只要受訓就等於就業，也就是受訓就當作是正式上班，可以領5個月的全薪，表示現在司機荒可以說是非常、非常地嚴重。我想請問一下，針對公路客運，看起來也算是缺工的行業，是不是有引進外籍移工的空間？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，司機是屬於專技人員，他不是屬於低階的藍領，他應該是屬於白領，這個部分權責機關在交通部，因為司機也要考證照，所以這部分應該是交通部去考量，如果要引進白領的司機專技人員，我們也尊重，他只要申請工作證就可以了。"],["涂委員權吉：好。因為這個……"],["許部長銘春：就是資格啦。"],["涂委員權吉：根據他們的一些指標，我們做過一些統計，我知道勞發署有跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組，每年針對一些指標去做統計，我們大概看一下，針對產業關聯，公路客運其實也是屬於公共運輸，並且屬於公共財，不是企業營利部分；自動化、自動駕駛的部分其實現在也還沒有到成熟的階段；薪資水準的部分，白領移工的下限是4萬7,971元，其實我們客運司機的平均月薪資可以高達五萬九千多，所以基本上他也算是高薪，而且如果以聘請外籍移工來講，也不算是虧待他們，薪水部分比白領移工的最低下限還高；重點是這部分的缺工情形非常嚴重，你看高薪在臺灣也真的都請不到人，在臺北市、桃園市，甚至我相信各縣市的人力缺口真的非常嚴重；並且它也符合3K產業，因為它也是高工時、勞累，也是長年招募不足。所以今天在這邊提出，就是希望勞動部是不是可以針對這個部分來解決司機荒？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個需求的部分我們瞭解，現在真的是缺司機，但是這整個權責是在交通部，我們尊重，因為他是屬於白領，他不是屬於藍領的移工，所以他只要符合資格，也可以考過相關證照，我們其實只是負責發工作證而已，這個部分我們尊重交通部的……"],["涂委員權吉：我們也會先提出，因為我們今天提出就是希望勞動部能夠先重視這一部分，這個指標是勞動部的指標，我們經過這些指標……"],["許部長銘春：這是移工的引進，我可能要跟您先說明一下，這是移工的引進，跟白領專技人員的其實是不一樣的，白領是不需要使用這個……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，因為我希望先讓勞動部重視這一部分的問題，當然交通部的問題我們也會去解決，因為現在司機方面人才招募的問題造成很多地方、家長還有很多上班族困擾，像我們現在有很多路線，要搭乘的人很多，可是要加班卻沒有辦法加班，導致很多路線莫名的停駛，很多縣市政府說它真的沒有司機，所以沒有辦法去開，所以也希望勞動部能夠協助解決這一部分問題，交通部的部分我們也會去解決，今天先提出，希望勞動部也能夠重視這個問題。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝，我們會把……"],["涂委員權吉：還有針對外籍移工的部分，很多的企業廠商也來跟我們陳情說從有外籍移工開始，我們移工的核配比率好像從開始到現在都沒有調整過，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，其實基本上就是目的事業主管機關，像製造業就是經濟部，如果各個產業的核配比，它認為可能現在因為時空的轉換所以必須提高，它就可以提案到勞動部來，我們會開政策諮詢小組來決定……"],["涂委員權吉：因為現在很多工業區，像我們的選區，像我那邊是全北部最大的工業區，很多的廠商、協進會都說這個外籍移工的比率其實已經不合乎時宜，他說其實從外籍移工開始引進到現在都沒有真正去重新檢討、討論過，所以他們建議勞動部針對這部分是不是能夠找一些廠商、學者還有我們這些廠商的代表，希望來一個重新的檢討，針對這個核配的比率，還有使用上，像有些染整的部分，還有成衣廠，說有些外籍移工的使用、調配應該要能夠讓他們去活用，解決現在在臺灣真的招募不到人來做的問題。"],["許部長銘春：是，報告委員，其實我剛剛講過，就是這個比率真的不足的話，目的事業主管機關可以提案過來，我們政策諮詢小組會開會討論看是不是合理，第二個，現在還沒有調整之前，你可以用附加（extra），你只要加就安費就可以提高這個比率，另外還有就是承接國內轉出的移工，5%裡面，按照原來的就安基金，他就可以來進用，另外轉成中階，還可以轉一個補一個，這個都可以……"],["涂委員權吉：好，因為我知道勞發署針對跨國勞動力的部分有一個諮詢小組，我希望諮詢小組針對這個比率的部分來深切的檢討，因為我們接到太多太多的反映了，這個已經二十幾年了，真的很不合乎時宜。"],["許部長銘春：對啦，請委員跟相關的業者講請它提案給經濟部。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我再請業者提出具體的陳情。我們還有提出勞工保險財務改善的專案報告，我先看了一下，我發現這個專案報告真的太流於形式了，然後我們看了一下勞動保險業務，從109年到113年，這個勞動保險業務的預算年年增加，從一千四百多億到113年的二千七百九十幾億，這五年足足增加了兩倍，我看這個大部分都是用來補勞保基金，我也看了這個專案報告，感覺真的是流於形式，沒有一些具體的改善方式，部長，你有什麼看法？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，包括健保的勞工部分也是因為人數增加，他們投保薪資也是在我們這邊……"],["涂委員權吉：我知道，因為……"],["許部長銘春：另外還有就是撥補啦！"],["涂委員權吉：因為勞保年金改革，說真的，我們也看了一下，2020年部長也一直有心要去做，8月份的時候你也說一定要去做，不惜辭官，然後9月份說在2020年底要提出改善方案，其實一直到今年（2024年），我們都看不到具體的改善方案，後來有問部長，部長的意思是說這個因為很複雜，要3黨坐下來談。所以我說當初這個預算會凍結，就是看不到一些具體的改善方案，今天又說要解凍，我們也還是看不到具體的改善方案，而且你又說要等3黨坐下來慢慢談，那你都還沒談好，現在又要來解凍，我不知道要做什麼。我倒認為是不是等到真正提出一個完善的改善方案的時候，我們再來解凍、來解決這個問題，不然你看，從2020年這個業務經費也是一直撥啊！撥到現在也沒有一個完整的改善方案，現在又說要來解凍這個預算，我不知道解凍以後，難道今年解凍就可以做出改善方案嗎？"],["許部長銘春：主要是因為預算關係到我們業務的推動啦……"],["涂委員權吉：可是我的意思是，前面那麼多年你也說要做，我們看預算也都編給你們啊！但是你說要做也沒做，然後你今年還說沒有辦法做，那你還來解凍幹嘛？你說要3黨坐下來談，談到可以做的時候再來解凍，那前面說可以做的時候，經費照編也做不出一個改善方案，然後今年你說要3黨坐下來談才有辦法做，那我不知道解凍這筆錢要做什麼。"],["許部長銘春：這個就是我們勞保相關的業務啦！不是……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我的意思是，前面錢給你用，你也做不出改善方案，然後今天又說要來解凍……"],["許部長銘春：這是兩個問題啦……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得……"],["許部長銘春：只是當時凍結是用這個案由來凍結。"],["涂委員權吉：好啦！我說如果今年給，那你有辦法提出改善方案嗎？如果真的沒辦法給，明年這筆經費我們怎麼讓你過得了、怎麼編得下去。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，勞保年改這件事情我們一定會很審慎，也一定會積極去處理，只是說這個比較複雜啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好啦！部長，你再好好看一下，因為我很擔心啦！從109年到113年增加了兩倍，這個缺口越來越大，你又沒有改善方案，業務費100萬不是問題……"],["許部長銘春：這個缺口的問題，它本來就是……"],["涂委員權吉：但是100萬給了也沒有具體的方案出來，我不知道這個業務費一直給下去……"],["許部長銘春：人口老化跟少子化的問題……"],["涂委員權吉：我相信當初會凍結，就是因為你們沒有具體的方案，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.45971875,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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製造業就是經濟部他如果各個產業的合配比他認為說可能是現在時空的轉換這樣可能必須提高他就可以提案到我們勞動部來我們會開這個政策諮詢因為現在很多"},{"start":401.798,"end":430.753,"text":"工業區像我們的選區像我那邊是全北部最大的工業區那很多的廠商協進會很多的廠商都說這個外籍義工這個比例其實已經不合乎時宜他說其實從外籍義工開始引進到現在都沒有真正去重新檢討討論過所以他們說建議我們勞動部是不是針對這部分能夠找一些廠商學者還有我們這些廠商的代表希望來一個重新的檢討"},{"start":432.894,"end":453.228,"text":"針對這個合配的比例還有它這個使用上他說像有些染疹的部分還有晨衣廠他說有些這外籍移工使用的調配應該要能夠讓他們能夠去活用解決現在在台灣真的招募不到人來做的問題是 報告委員其實我剛剛講過就是說你真的比例真的不足"},{"start":454.088,"end":479.879,"text":"你那個目的世界主管機關他可以提案過來我們政策諮詢小組會開會來討論看是不是合理第二個就是說其實我現在還沒有調整之前你可以用那個附加就extra你只要加那個救安費就可以提高這個比例另外還有就是承接國內轉出的移工5%裡面就是按照這個原來救安基金"},{"start":482.366,"end":486.094,"text":"他就可以來禁用另外轉成中階他轉成中階他還可以"},{"start":488.715,"end":492.498,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":516.196,"end":533.07,"text":"我們有提出這個勞工保險財務改善的專案報告我先看了一下我發現其實這個專案報告真的太流於形式然後我們勞動保險業務我們看了一下從109年到113年你看這個勞動保險業務這個預算年年增加從1400多億到113年到2790"},{"start":547.182,"end":561.379,"text":"2790幾億這五年足足增加了兩倍那所以我看這個大部分都是用來補這個勞保基金然後我也看這個專案報告感覺真的是流於形勢沒有一些具體的改善方式部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":562.293,"end":588.295,"text":"報告委員這個其實包括那個健保的那個勞工的部分齁也是因為人數增加啊也是他們也是投保薪資也是在我們這邊我知道因為那另外還有就是撥補啦因為這勞保這個年金改革啊說真的因為我們也看了一下2020年喔部長也一直有心要去做八月份的時候你也說一定要去做不惜持官"},{"start":588.815,"end":591.397,"text":"二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":609.267,"end":624.988,"text":"這個預算會凍結就是看不到一些具體的改善方案那現在今天又說要凍結我們也還是看不到具體的改善方案而且你又說要等三黨坐下來慢慢談那你都還沒談好你現在要來解凍我不知道要做什麼"},{"start":625.669,"end":648.545,"text":"那我倒認為這個是不是等到真的提出一個完善的改善方案的時候我們再來解凍來解決這個問題不然你看從2020年這個經費業務經費也是一直撥啊撥到現在也沒有一個完整的改善方案那現在又說要來解凍這個預算我不知道解凍以後難道今年解凍就可以做出改善方案嗎主要是因為預算的"},{"start":653.341,"end":681.938,"text":"關係到我們業務的推動可是我的意思說前面那麼多年你也說要做我們前面看預算也都編給你們啊然後你說要做也沒做然後你今年還說沒有辦法做那你還來解凍幹嘛你說要三黨坐下來來談談到可以做的時候再來解凍那前面說可以做的時候經費照編也做不出一個改善方案然後今年你說要三黨坐下來談才有辦法做那我不知道解凍這筆錢要做什麼"},{"start":684.228,"end":709.15,"text":"這個就是我們的勞保的相關的業務啦所以我的意思是說前面錢給你用啊你也做不出改善方案然後今天又說要來解凍這是兩個問題啦只是當初總結他是用這個案以為是解凍好啦那我說啊如果今年給那你有辦法改善方案嗎如果真的沒辦法給你說這明年這筆經費我們怎麼讓你過得了怎麼編得下去"},{"start":711.533,"end":737.628,"text":"老保年改這件事情我們一定是會很審慎也一定會積極處理部長你再好好看一下因為我很擔心從109年到113年增加了兩倍這個缺口越來越大你又沒有改善方案業務費100萬不是問題但是100萬給了也沒有具體的方案出來我不知道這個業務費一直給下去我相信當初會凍結就是因為你們沒有具體的方案謝謝"},{"start":740.387,"end":740.448,"text":"謝謝圖全集"}]}},{"id":"150350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b827e71461202223c0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a645bf4d8e7f7c77355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:08:39 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11:16:26","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":467,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:16:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:08:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。我延續上一次質詢的主題，對於國發基金去投入產業的升級，我個人絕對是支持的，但……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：但前提是一定都要本於專業評估，絕對不可以拿國發基金的錢來進行政治酬庸或是搞政治關係。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我同意，完全同意。"],["黃委員國昌：最近國發會一直在跟臺灣社會大眾講一個新聞，說國發基金去年大賺289億，我要請問主委，大賺這289億有幾個公司是在蔡政府任內的時候決定要投資的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果說比較大的投資，我們在這四年來主要是投陽明海運。"],["黃委員國昌：陽明海運本來就是國家的啊！我現在在講的是新的投資標的，陽明海運最大股東本來就是交通部嘛，我現在在講的是新的投資標的。因為我們要檢討國發基金的績效，就要一任、一任來看，你不要把過去的投資績效算在這一任的政府任內嘛，這樣並不公平，所以我問的是什麼？我問的是在蔡政府任內決定要投資的標的，有哪幾家過去這幾年是賺錢的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，報告委員，因為陽明是後來在它剩下10塊錢的時候，我們現金增資去支持它……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我現在不跟你爭執陽明，陽明算你的好了，還有哪幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為通常投資會有一段的成長過程嘛，剛開始都是觸發期，後來才會有營收，台積電剛開始也是不賺錢的，是後來……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，我現在也沒有在跟你爭執台積電，我現在具體的看嘛，就是蔡政府所投資的投資標的有哪幾家過去是賺錢的？這就是我的問題。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我剛才提到了，陽明是賺錢的。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我直接秀蔡政府國發基金的投資績效給你看，譬如說像台杉水牛，一開始賠錢，後來賺錢，這個我都把它算在賺錢的範圍之中，因為國發基金什麼時候投進去的，這些我透過一些資訊，我可以收得到，賺錢的就這6家。我接下來給主委看賠錢的有哪些，賠錢的有下面這19家，這些是蔡政府上臺以後決定要投資的標的，我把它全部臚列出來了，我覺得這個才是在討論我們國發基金盈虧時一個負責任的作法。我今天要挑戰的是什麼？我今天要挑戰的事情是，包括過去我們一直在批評的如興，這個投資的決策到底是怎麼做的？包括之前也有委員關心的東貝，這兩個案子現在都有刑事訴訟，也進入了刑事訴訟程序了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第三個，我非常關心的就是聯合再生，因為在2016到2020的時候，我上次也跟主委報告過，那個時候民進黨自己的立委就在質疑了，為什麼要去投資這一家虧損連連、根本沒有競爭力的公司？什麼時候國發基金竟然變成了紓困基金？我上次為什麼跟主委說我反對用國家的資源搞政商關係？我今天非常負責任地跟主委報告，投了聯合再生以後，結果聯合再生是朝中有人嗎？什麼事情都可以用牽的嗎？我今天負責任地講，今天當政府拿了這麼多納稅人的錢投一家公司，這家公司的董事長去擔任蔡英文綠能後援會的總會長，這件事情從政治上來講，我個人就覺得非常不妥當，但我知道這不是你的權責。","第二個部分，誰決定投資的？這件事情追問了非常久，我上次質詢的時候也公開的點出來，在背後牽線的就是張景森，結果公司成立，我們注資了以後，三合一了以後，裡面是一片綠友友，連張景森自己的弟弟都跑去當獨董！主委，你真的覺得這樣子適合嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為這個案子當時我沒有……，這個董事長我也不認識啦，重要的是我們是要用公司治理的方式儘量把它監督好，這是我們國發基金的職責。之前您提到經濟部有一個案子的那個部分，我們也希望不要這樣子，所以我後來做了一些糾正，這個是我們可以做的。"],["黃委員國昌：好！主委，我知道啦，這背後真正的推手不是你。我這個人的個性是有一說一，我話會講得很清楚，但上次我質詢的時候你很生氣，你說……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：很抱歉！"],["黃委員國昌：這個飯你有沒有去吃？我負責任的跟主委講啦，內部的秘書要約這個飯局，他們要付錢，資料我都調出來了，我不是一個會看照片說故事的人。他那一天就講了啊，到請客樓包廂約了誰？張景森。張景森出面約了誰？約了潘孟安、約了你。所以我才跟你求證嘛！我可以很肯定的跟主委報告，那一天你有去，我除了有這個書面證據以外，我還有證人，那一天你有去，今天可以證實這件事嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，我真的是忘記了，因為我跟這位董事長不認識、不熟……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以在我的記憶裡面就不會有這樣的記憶，如果本來就是我的朋友，我當然是平常吃飯可能會有……"],["黃委員國昌：是，誰要你去吃這個飯的？這是我的問題。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我真的忘記了。"],["黃委員國昌：你真的忘記了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，因為我在……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我還回頭去查我的行事曆，我的行事曆就沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：我再回復一下你的記憶。現在主席站起來了，我們下一次繼續。今天我讓主委回去複習的功課是，農電共生的這個專案，在你擔任政委的期間當中，你有沒有主責過？農電共生主委聽得懂吧？農電共生的這個專案，在您當主委的時候，你有沒有經手過？因為我知道他們一直在推農電共生嘛，連蔡英文要張景森提的報告都是洪傳獻找人寫的！我的老天啊！我們國家的綠能政策什麼時候變得這麼腐敗啊！竟然找業者來幫我們的政委寫國家有關於農電共生的政策，這樣對嗎？","好，謝謝。"],["主席：黃委員，時間到了，謝謝。","謝謝黃國昌委員，接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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11:06:05","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":706,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:06:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:54:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時54分）謝謝主席。我們先請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。3月21號央行召開理監事會議，本來金融業者還有媒體預期可能不會在這次的理監事會議就升息，媒體預估有可能在6月才會決定下半年會不會升息，結果沒想到在3月21號的央行理監事會議就決定升息半碼，然後我們總裁說這是一個surprise，雖然是surprise，不過是一個合理的決定，因為他認為這是要抑制國內通膨的預期心理，算是一種預防性的升息。主計長也是央行的監事會的主席，3月21號的理監事會議主計長也有出席，想請教一下主計長，主計長也決定升息半碼嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，根據央行法的規定，決策權在理事會，所以在表決這個案子的時候，監事會是不會舉手的……"],["李委員坤城：那你有發言嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：監事是管財務的，我當監事會主席從來不會對政策表示意見……"],["李委員坤城：好，那本席請教主計長，對於楊總裁升息半碼的決定，您支持嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我尊重他的決策，因為我們終究是一個團隊。謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：那就是支持的意思就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員坤城：支持的理由為何，可不可以請主計長跟我們說明一下？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為央行總裁講得很清楚，他是擔心通膨的預期心理，而且因為目前水果類的漲幅，尤其所謂的租金以及外食費，外食費現在……"],["李委員坤城：主計長，楊總裁他的說法主要是因為4月份電價要調漲，他說怕會有預期性的通膨，所以他才決定要升息半碼，這應該是他做此決定最主要的原因。我看了一下去年年底主計總處對於CPI年增率的預測是1.64%，然後央行是1.89%，但是到了今年2月底，央行對於CPI的年增率就調升了，調升到2.16%，增加的0.27%就是把4月份電價會調漲的預期性心理，也就是把通膨的期待加進去了。本席想請教一下主計長，在2月底的時候，你對於今年的CPI年增率還是在1.85%左右，現在央行已經確定要升息半碼。請問一下主計長，你對於今年的CPI會不會也跟著做調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們主計總處2月29號宣布的時候，還沒有調漲電價的政策，因為我們不會對未知的事情去表示意見，如果現在電價……"],["李委員坤城：但是央行會，央行總裁說他已經把4月份的電價調漲考慮進去了，主計總處現在已經確定了，就是4月份會調漲電價……"],["朱主計長澤民：央行的估計據我知道是2.16%，我們的估計是2.03%，還有一個最重要的原因是，電價調漲從4月1號開始，所以對於全年CPI的影響大概是9個月而已。"],["李委員坤城：所以主計總處也會上修CPI年增率就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：那部分要到5月份才會上修，因為我們要經過委員會通過的，我們內部做的預估大概是2.03%左右。"],["李委員坤城：2.03%左右，就是扣掉前面4個月就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對對對，沒有，因為我們原來沒有把電價的因素包括在內。"],["李委員坤城：現在又把電價加進去，CPI年增率也會再提升就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：不過楊總裁也把經濟成長率上修了，他上修到3.22%，我們主計總處預計今年的成長率是3.43%，不過因應電價調漲，經濟成長率還有可能維持在3.43%嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。跟委員報告一下，根據我們的經濟模型，事實上電價調整對GDP大概影響0.1個百分點而已。"],["李委員坤城：所以你認為對經濟成長不會有太大的影響？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看到央行是上修經濟成長率，我不知道對於主計總處來講，會不會做修正？"],["朱主計長澤民：那部分要等5月份的時候我們再來做一個處理，因為中間可能會有些變化。跟委員報告一下，目前國內各機構對我們GDP的預測，大家的預計大概都是3%以上。"],["李委員坤城：本席再就教主計長，6月份央行還要再開一次理監事會議，不曉得主計長你認為會不會6月份在開會的時候，又再讓我們surprise一次、又再升息半碼？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，央行要不要升息都是經過理事投票來決定的……"],["李委員坤城：是，我知道，那您的預測呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不敢預測，我尊重央行，因為我們監事會原則上不會對政策過分的表示意見。"],["李委員坤城：所以你也是只開會，那不發言嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不會說未來會有利息……"],["李委員坤城：就是怕會有預期性的通膨，因為這次央行升息半碼，就是說他怕電價調漲會有預期性的通膨，那我現在看物價是有一點蠢蠢欲動的心理。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟各位委員報告一下，事實上最近3年來，我們的物價的趨勢是在往下的。謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我上次問主計長，主計長認為百分之二的通膨是溫和的，是溫和的……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的、是的。謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：那不曉得……可能央行的想法跟主計長的想法比較不一樣……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們兩個原則上是一樣的，剛才講我們對CPI的預估只差0.1個百分點。"],["李委員坤城：就是現在物價有蠢蠢欲動的感覺，所以本席才請教主計長，是不是有可能在6月的時候，會再讓我們surprise一次？"],["朱主計長澤民：我6月應該不會站在這裡了，我的總統派令只到5月19號。"],["李委員坤城：不管您在哪個單位或是您在哪裡，就是說至少對於經濟這方面的預測，都是要仰賴您啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：不敢、不敢，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：所以您也不敢預測6月份會發生什麼樣的情況就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：是不是會有surprise？我不曉得。"],["李委員坤城：不曉得？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：我們請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。謝金河在他的臉書上面寫「這是什麼荒謬的世界」，不曉得主委有沒有看到謝金河這篇臉書？"],["黃主任委員天牧：請指導，我沒有看。"],["李委員坤城：好。他最主要是講有人用他的名字來詐騙，然後他就立即通知臉書，他跟臉書檢舉有人用他的名字來詐騙，但是臉書回覆他說，這個廣告沒有違反廣告刊登守則的公平、公正、公開原則，所以他的檢舉臉書就不受理，因此他說這是一個荒謬的世界。現在有很多一頁式的詐騙廣告，以謝金河為例，他說他絕對不會叫粉絲匯款，然後說最近詐騙多到「看袂落去」，所以他重新啟用一個新的臉書帳號，等於詐騙集團是用反詐騙的警語，企圖躲過關鍵字的搜尋，然後就用反詐騙的名義來行騙，這個當然後來已經下架了。我想請問一下，現在一頁式的詐騙廣告是由哪個機關主責？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有關平臺上的部分，實名制、下架是我們來處理，但一頁式的這個是……"],["李委員坤城：一頁式的詐騙廣告，現在是數發部來主責就對了？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，這個詐騙廣告要看內容，但是只要相關部會提供給我們，我們就會請他下架。"],["李委員坤城：現在的問題就發生在，實名制Google已經做到了，對不對？那臉書Meta還沒有？"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼它要到6月份？"],["李次長懷仁：它的系統跟著英國一起，它們全球的政策大概6月。"],["李委員坤城：全球政策？"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["李委員坤城：這是我們要求它，跟全球政策有什麼關係？"],["李次長懷仁：因為它們整個系統都要改，包括它們在其國家也面臨這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們要等到6月份？你看，謝金河說他去跟Meta檢舉，結果Meta說這個沒有違反廣告刊登原則，明明就是詐騙式的廣告咧！就沒有辦法處理？"],["李次長懷仁：有，我們還是會，我們有跟謝董事長的辦公室直接聯繫，我們有幫他協助下架。"],["李委員坤城：那是因為他是謝金河，今天如果是其他人的話，有辦法這樣處理嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：這個分兩段，一段是前面的臉書，另外他們是一頁式廣告，一頁式廣告如果是詐騙廣告，我們透過RPZ就直接封住了。"],["李委員坤城：除了Meta、Google之外，現在LINE也是，好像很多都是這種一頁式的廣告，就是我點進去之後，然後它要我加入某一個LINE的群組或是去申請某個app。現在我的問題在於，你們有要求Google、Meta的廣告要實名制，那LINE呢？詐騙的LINE ID只能公告提醒，也沒辦法移除下架，甚至抖音，抖音現在沒有落地，但是出現在抖音上面的詐騙類型，現在有超過50%也都是屬於這一種假投資詐騙，那抖音你們怎麼去處理呢？"],["李次長懷仁：抖音的部分，我們跟他們碰過面，我們也正在要求他們配合，包括警方或者是包括選舉的部分……"],["李委員坤城：那有辦法嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：正在討論。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦，因為他們沒有落地，你們是透過什麼樣的方法去跟……"],["李次長懷仁：我們就直接跟他們公司談，就像Twitter也沒有落地，但是他們也會配合。"],["李委員坤城：他們公司在哪裡？"],["李次長懷仁：你是問TikTok嗎？"],["李委員坤城：對，TikTok。"],["李次長懷仁：TikTok在新加坡。"],["李委員坤城：在新加坡，所以你們是跟新加坡的公司來處理這件事情就是了？"],["李次長懷仁：對，我們直接跟TikTok……"],["李委員坤城：因為沒有落地，我不知道最後抖音（TikTok）能不能進來，這是另外一回事，這個……"],["李次長懷仁：這個都不是我們能夠判……"],["李委員坤城：對，這個涉及到國安，甚至現在講到詐騙的問題，LINE也是，然後TikTok也是，這個東西你們要去處理，現在看起來就只有Google最聽話，其他的都沒有，但是遇到這種一頁式的廣告詐騙的話，我認為處理的速度太慢了啦！"],["李次長懷仁：我們再加強。"],["李委員坤城：因為他是名人，大家處理的速度很快，那一般老百姓呢？"],["李次長懷仁：是，委員，我們再加強。"],["李委員坤城：好。謝謝。"],["李次長懷仁：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請王世堅王委員質詢。王委員質詢完畢就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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5.985,"end":364.448,"text":"那我現在看物價有一點蠢蠢欲動的心理啦跟委員報告一下事實上最近3年來我們的物價是在往下的一個趨勢謝謝"},{"start":381.613,"end":404.036,"text":"對阿,因為我上次問主計長,主計長認為說百分之二的通膨是溫和的是溫和的那所以說那是不曉得說因為這個可能央行的想法跟主計長的想法比較不一樣我們兩個原則上是一樣的我們剛才講我們CPI的預估只差0.1個百分點那所以這個"},{"start":405.557,"end":418.784,"text":"現在物價有蠢蠢欲動的感覺啦所以本期才請教主計長說是不是有可能在6月的時候會再讓我們surprise一次我6月應該不會站在這裡了所以我不會站在這裡了"},{"start":421.505,"end":423.606,"text":"所以您也不敢預測就是說6月份"},{"start":443.44,"end":451.004,"text":"會發生什麼樣的情況?會不會有失敗?我不曉得。不曉得。對對。好,謝謝主計長。謝謝委員。我們請這一個黃主委。請黃主委。委員長。主委好。這個齁,這個謝靖和在他的臉書上面寫說這是一個什麼樣的荒謬的世界。不曉得這個主委有沒有看到謝靖和這篇臉書?"},{"start":472.204,"end":493.599,"text":"他最主要是講說有人用他的名字來詐騙然後詐騙他就立即通知這個臉書然後他就跟臉書檢舉說有人用他的名字來詐騙但是臉書回覆他說這個廣告沒有違反廣告刊登守則的公平公正公開原則所以他的檢舉臉書就不受理所以他說這是一個荒謬的世界"},{"start":494.62,"end":515.794,"text":"然後呢這個很多這個他的這個詐騙的廣告一夜市的詐騙廣告呢那比如說吼現在很多這個詐騙的廣告吼以謝記惠為例吼他說這個吼他絕對不會叫粉絲匯款吼然後呢最近詐騙多到這個看不下去所以他重新啟用一個新的臉書帳號就等於說詐騙集團呢他是用這個反詐騙的警語吼然後企圖躲過這個我們關鍵字的搜尋用反詐騙的名義呢啊來行騙"},{"start":525.082,"end":525.723,"text":"現在一夜市的廣告的詐騙是由哪個機關來阻擇?"},{"start":534.571,"end":557.568,"text":"有關平台上的部分實名制下架我們來處理,但一夜市……對不起,蘇委員。對,一夜市的這個詐騙廣告現在是蘇發部來主責就對了。跟委員報告,這個詐騙廣告看內容,但是只要相關部會提供我們,我們就會請他下架。現在問題就發生在說,實名制Google已經有做到了對不對?那臉書Meta還沒有?對。"},{"start":559.165,"end":580.814,"text":"為什麼他要到6月份?他們系統跟著英國一起,他們全球政策,大概6月。全球政策?這個是我們要求他跟全球政策有什麼關係?因為他們整個系統都要改,包括他們在其他國家也面臨這個問題。那這個所以我們要等到6月份,你看嘛,謝金河他說他去跟Meta來檢舉,但結果Meta說這個沒有違反這個廣告原則,明明就是詐騙式的廣告勒。"},{"start":583.39,"end":599.984,"text":"就沒有辦法處理?那是因為他是謝金河今天如果說其他人的話有辦法這樣處理嗎?這分兩段一段是前面的臉書另外一段是一夜市廣告一夜市廣告如果是詐騙廣告我們透過RPTT就直接封住了"},{"start":601.072,"end":625.042,"text":"除了這個Meta除了Google之外現在Line也是啊好像很多就是這種ES的廣告就是說我點進去之後然後要我加入某一個Line的群組或是說去申請某個App那現在我的問題在於說你們有Google有Meta要求實名制那Line咧?詐騙的Line它只能公告提醒也沒辦法移除下架"},{"start":625.862,"end":653.521,"text":"那甚至呢抖音,抖音現在沒有落地啊但是在抖音上面現在有超過50也都是屬於這種假投資的詐騙那抖音你們怎麼去處理勒?抖音的部分我們正在跟他我們跟他碰過面我們也正在要求他們配合這個包括警方或者是包括選舉的部分有辦法嗎?正在討論不是啊,那他們因為沒有落地嘛你們是怎麼透過什麼樣的方法去跟我們就直接跟他們公司談就像推特也沒有落地但是他們也會配合"},{"start":654.221,"end":683.28,"text":"他們公司在哪裡?你是問TikTok嗎?對TikTokTikTok在新加坡在新加坡所以你們是跟新加坡的公司來處理這件事情就對了我們直接跟TikTok因為沒有落地嘛因為我不知道說最後抖音和TikTok能不能進來這是另外一回事這個就不是我們能夠判決對這是涉及到國安那甚至說現在講這個詐騙的問題就是說LINE也是然後那個TikTok也是那這個東西呢你們要去處理現在看起來Google他是最聽話其他都沒有啊"},{"start":683.86,"end":684.14,"text":"接下來質詢請王世堅"}]}},{"id":"150346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1b3fc4959674989c0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6543a4b68e5d27b965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:55:56 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11:03:25","影片長度":"00:07:29","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":449,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:03:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:55:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時56分）主席，我想請龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["張委員嘉郡：龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：電價已經確定從4月開始調漲，平均漲幅11%，原本從經濟部爭取補貼1,500億，現在改成1,000億，近兩年政府補貼台電多少錢，主委知道嗎？國發會主委你不知道嗎？你不知道……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好像有3次了吧！"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊，多少錢你知道嗎？好，你不知道，本席告訴你。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：由經濟部增資1,500億，特別預算挹注500億，再增資1,001億，再撥補1,000億，這樣加起來你會算嗎？是四千多億，請問主委，一間公司接受政府補貼4,000億元，不是4,000塊，是4,000億元卻還在虧錢，這個原因為何？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它承擔了整個物價上漲的壓力……"],["張委員嘉郡：物價上漲壓力是什麼？什麼物價上漲了？會讓它賠了4,000億還在虧錢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為過去兩年漲的電價，在國際間來講，相對於能源價格的上漲要低了很多啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：主委，請你看一看國際報導好嗎？現在不管是國際的天然氣還是油價都已經降到接近戰爭前了，我們還在漲電價，到底是為什麼？是不是因為錯誤的能源政策？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，現在國際的價格的確是這樣，但還是高於我們電價的成本，就是它的成本還高於我們的電價。"],["張委員嘉郡：主委，你這又是另外一個版本喔！王美花不是這樣講的喔！王美花的版本跟你不一樣，你們兩個要不要通一下氣啊？怎麼你講一個版本、他講一個版本？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為我們電價還是相對比較低……"],["張委員嘉郡：王美花部長的版本是說，因為戰爭導致天然氣、燃料費增加……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是啊，這是過去兩年……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以到底是誰決定要用這麼多天然氣的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：天然氣……"],["張委員嘉郡：你同意嗎？你同意我們國家的能源政策要用這麼多天然氣嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有一些規劃就是先把……"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：先把燒煤炭的部分降下來……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是要廢核能、不敢燒煤炭、綠能又無法達標，所以就大力的燒天然氣，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在就是燒煤炭的部分要把它減下來，然後再生能源還要一段時間，所以過渡期……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以現在這個能源政策就是我們大大的使用天然氣，結果天然氣呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這是過渡期……"],["張委員嘉郡：過渡期嗎？你的意思是說，未來我們不用再補貼台電的意思嗎？你的意思是說，我們補貼完這1,000億之後就不用再補貼它了，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還是要看國際能源價格的變化，如果……"],["張委員嘉郡：現在國際能源價格都已經回穩了，結果到現在台電還是一味的把虧損原因推給國際因素，主委你認為這合理嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：過去兩年本來就是虧損，虧損是存在的，還是要把那個虧損給彌補掉啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你的意思就是，反正民進黨政府錯誤的能源政策就是要全民買單嘛，是不是？你是同意這樣子的吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：去年跟前年臺灣的物價只有2.5%，對比其他國家是8%、10%……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再問你，假設電價平均調漲11%之後……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我想臺灣沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：我問你，國發會預計會影響CPI多少？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是0.2到0.3個百分點。"],["張委員嘉郡：今年主計總處本來就預估說CPI是1.85%，目前央行估計CPI是2.16%，而漲電價幾乎可以確定全年的CPI會超過通膨警戒線2%，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，大致上是2%左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：那我想請問國發會會做出哪一種作為？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為現在跨部會都有一些配套措施嘛，所以為什麼穩定物價小組會去宣布我們大宗物資各種稅的減免……"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要問的是國發會有什麼具體的建議、具體的作為？有沒有？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：國發會就是跨部會的一個協調機構啊。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊，那你要協調什麼啊？你不能空口說白話，只會講空話呀！你到底要做什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，我想穩定物價小組的決策就是我們做的建議……"],["張委員嘉郡：那我再問你一下，針對經濟部做的圖卡說這一次漲電價，連鎖麵包店每天只會增加2塊，這個你認同嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個要去問經濟部。"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是說，經濟部這種作為就是在騙啊！連鎖烘焙坊一天增加2塊的話，一個月只要增加60塊耶，這種圖卡，國發會主委你可以接受嗎？你可以接受經濟部就是透過這種圖卡在暗示人民說漲電價可能只有一點點影響，結果呢？台電已經跳出來打臉了，台電說正常的烘焙坊、有在用電烘焙的烘焙坊，一個月應該會漲1萬951塊，你知道60塊跟1萬951塊差了多少倍嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，關鍵不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：182倍！關鍵就是在漲電價不會影響人民是騙人的！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是一個詐騙的行為！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，關鍵不在它是不是烘焙坊，關鍵是它有沒有用到700度，如果它用700度以下……"],["張委員嘉郡：我告訴你，國發會主委，你好好的去問一下烘焙坊，有哪一間有在烘焙麵包的烘焙坊用電會少於700度？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果它高於700度，就會超過2塊錢……"],["張委員嘉郡：你可以去探聽一下，你身為國發會主委，真的對物價一點瞭解都沒有，會不會有點太誇張！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那就看看它有沒有用超過700度，有超過700度就會漲超過2塊，這就是答案。"],["張委員嘉郡：不只是2塊！台電都說一個月會漲超過1萬951塊了！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還是要看那一個月它用了多少的電，因為會有不同的級距嘛！"],["張委員嘉郡：這是一個非常莫名的圖卡啦！我今天特別帶來就是要告訴你，我們不能用詐騙的手段糊弄我們的民眾，讓他們覺得絕對不會萬物齊漲，我覺得這是一個非常可惡的行為！所以我現在想要問主委，你也認同這個圖卡嗎？你也認同這種詐騙的行為嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我想它每一度這樣講是對的，那要不要把下面這些店寫出來，我是尊重，因為每一度會漲多少，這個是算出來的嘛，700度以下漲多少……"],["張委員嘉郡：反正我看你是無法苦民所苦啦！也是不痛不癢啦！"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所"},{"start":193.934,"end":197.836,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":216.306,"end":218.447,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":235.103,"end":258.461,"text":"就是0.2到0.3個百分比那所以今年主企總處本來就預估說CPI是1.85到目前央行估計說CPI是2.16%那漲電價幾乎可以確定全年的CPI會超過通膨警戒線2%對不對大致上是2%左右那我想要請問國發會會做出哪一種作為"},{"start":262.808,"end":268.373,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算"},{"start":286.889,"end":289.371,"text":"到底你要做什麼那我再問你一下針對經濟部做的圖卡做的圖卡說這一次漲電價連鎖麵包店每天只會增加兩塊這個你認同嗎這個要去問經濟部我的意思是說經濟部這種作為就是在騙阿"},{"start":308.271,"end":312.672,"text":"等於說連鎖烘焙房一天增加兩塊的話一個月只要增加60塊欸這種圖卡國防會主委你可以接受嗎你可以接受說經濟部就是透過這種圖卡在暗示人民說漲電價可能只有一點點影響結果呢台電已經跳出來打臉了"},{"start":330.236,"end":344.927,"text":"他說正常的烘焙房有在用電烘焙的烘焙房一個月應該會漲一萬零九百五十一塊你知道這60塊跟一萬零九百五十一塊差了多少倍嗎?"},{"start":345.828,"end":347.21,"text":"一百八十二倍關鍵就是在漲電價不會影響人民是騙人的這是一個詐騙的行為關鍵不是他是不是烘焙法關鍵是他有沒有用到700度"},{"start":361.292,"end":362.092,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":387.196,"end":398.031,"text":"不只是兩塊台電都說一個月會漲超過一萬零九百五十一塊了還是看說他那個月他用了多少的電但因為他不同的級距"},{"start":400.135,"end":406.961,"text":"這是一個非常莫名的這個圖卡啦所以我特別今天帶來就是要告訴你說我們不能不能用詐騙的手段糊弄我們的民眾讓他們覺得說絕對不會萬物其長我覺得這是一個非常可惡的行為所以我現在想要問主委說你也認同這個圖卡嗎?你也認同這種詐騙的行為嗎?"},{"start":425.578,"end":428.922,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算"}]}},{"id":"150345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b980af6d9948c1e4c0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a66e51440544dc04855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:47:07 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10:55:53","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":526,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:55:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:47:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時47分）謝謝主席，請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，國際能源價格高漲是全球面臨到的問題，世界各國都遇到這個問題。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然，臺灣我認為其實不論哪一黨在執政，也都會面臨到這個問題嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個是必須去面對的。現在電價因為政府也撥了一千億，當然原先有希望再增加多一點，不過有很多的考量，包括勞保、其他的考量等，所以撥補了一千億。當然最後也做了一些調整，希望降低對民生的影響、對物價的影響，特別有93%的家庭是漲3%到5%，也盡了最大的努力，讓整個台電的結構能夠比較好的狀況下，也減輕對民生的一個影響。我想要問一下主委，整體評估對於物價的影響，因為數字都已經出來了，會有什麼樣的一個影響？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，這件事情還沒有發生之前，當初主計總處預估大概1.85左右，如果單純從電價來講，我們說會直接反映大概百分之零點一多，如果有一些波及的效果的話，可能會再增加一點點。不過現在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以會0.2到0.3？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：但是我們現在有一些新的配套措施了，包括央行宣布升息，可能會對物價有一點點抑制效果，另外一個就是所有大宗物資的減免等措施從3月份又延到6月份，所以也會有一些抑制的效果啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以國發會整體評估對物價影響的部分，包括剛剛講到延伸性的這些，你們現在的評估大概會是多少的數字？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以就是原來預估大概0.2到0.3，但是因為有了配套措施，我想對於這0.2、0.3來講，會稍微再少一點點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會再少一點點？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，央行主要是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：雖然漲幅比原先的10%再多一點，最後是11%，但是剛剛講的兩個，不管是升息跟加上整個……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：大宗物資的減免延續。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這樣的一些政策因素下，有可能會在0.2到0.3，一樣是這樣但可能會再少一點？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這樣整個CPI的部分，在世界各國裡面，主委怎麼看？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還是相對低的，是非常低。"],["賴委員瑞隆：相對是低的吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為從前年、去年到今年，我們都是這樣，因為其他的國家，比如說在前年跟去年的時候，他們都高達8%、9%，我們都差不多2.9%，去年是二點四多，今年可能只有2%左右，這是相對非常非常平穩的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，因為我也看到你在撥補那一塊寫到1,000億以上、至少1,000億，將來有沒有可能再增加？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那就要看我們7月份以後，去年度的預算才會真正確定下來，那時候才知道去年到底……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果整個有增加，有超過預算數更多的數字的話，當然就有可能再多一些撥補進來……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我看行政院沒把這個說死，他們也不是只說1,000億，而是1,000億以上，至少會有1,000億嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來要請教了，其實這次電價的調漲，對於賺錢的，像是半導體、晶圓代工等等，當然因為他們本身的獲利相當好，所以就漲足，但是對於很多的傳統產業，特別像鋼鐵、水泥等等，他們剛好也是用電的企業，其實影響是不小的，主委怎麼看，怎麼看待這個產業的影響？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：經濟部在電價調整方面，對於獲利跟非獲利或是傳統的部分還是有一些不一樣的方案，甚至對於可能受影響比較大的部分還有一些協助的作法，比如說疫後特別預算特別條例的實施，怎麼樣來讓這些產業度過難關，讓他們更智慧化、節能減碳更好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望後續國發會跟經濟部還是要持續協助這些傳統產業，因為他們整個牽扯到的非常廣泛，我希望後續在這一塊能夠有更多的方案來協助他們，減少他們所受到的一些影響。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，再來也請教一下接下來的景氣，過兩天應該會發布最新的景氣，主委，接下來對臺灣整個景氣還是樂觀的吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：目前看到的情況是持續的、平穩的復甦當中，至少在您提到的相關ICT產業、高效能運算、人工智慧、車用電子還是會持續的增加；傳統產業的部分，比如說機械業等等，他們的庫存也慢慢的……不過可能稍微晚一點，到下半年也許慢慢的會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：整個區塊也都完畢了嘛，所以照理說應該是會起來，這一次電價會不會影響到他們的速度？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以剛剛特別提到，經濟部也有相關的配套措施，對於個別企業如果需要協助的話，包括貸款還是會持續，即便是升息，相關的利息補助也還會持續，如果要做節能減碳的轉型也有相關的補助。我們也鼓勵這些企業善用時間電價，不要在尖峰時間用電，那時候的電價比較高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，希望國發會跟經濟部持續協助，讓傳統產業、其他產業能夠減輕所受到的一些影響。","對於將來經濟成長率的部分呢？會再做一些修正嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：目前看起來還是會超過3%。"],["賴委員瑞隆：3%以上應該是沒有問題啦！這樣的定價已經明確的出來，所以3%以上沒有問題嘛，主委應該還是看好今年臺灣的經濟成長率狀況嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，最後剩一些時間，我問一下離島建設條例，今天也有討論到，我還是強烈的建議，上次也跟主委提過很多次，旗津本來是半島，但是因為開港之後才變成了離島，但是離島建設條例的條文沒有把它排除，在施行細則裡面用隔離的方式把它排除，就是因為過港隧道，我們知道過港隧道其實都是有年限性的，我還是希望主委回去慎重地思考，不見得是應用離島建設基金的經費，它不去跟大家搶食，但是有一些政策上的協助可以讓旗津島在發展上能夠有更多的鼓勵跟誘因，我希望這一塊主委是不是能夠邀請當地……主委，可不可以這樣啦！1個月的時間，邀請區公所跟里長，然後提出一份你們的建議報告給委員會這邊好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得聽一下大家的一些意見，如果能夠給當地的離島──旗津一些幫助的話，對於帶動整體年輕人回去就業或發展會有相當大的幫助。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果沒有用到基金的話，我想那個爭議會比較小一點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，我也覺得不需要啦，因為它跟其他確實不一樣，不要用基金的話，我想阻力就會小很多，但是有一些政策的協助就可以多進行，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：用類離島的概念去協助他們，給他們一些支持，讓旗津的發展更順利一點，畢竟因為開港導致只有過港隧道能夠貫通，不過過港隧道總是有年限性的影響，如果給它一些長遠的發展，對它會很有幫助。","另外關於地方創生，我知道主委也很支持，我也希望持續來推動，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它會是一個很好的示範點。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：剩下一點時間，再講一下臺灣經濟的部分，其實我們是高於韓國的，但是實質的薪資成長低於韓國，主委要怎麼來努力？這件事情怎麼來努力？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們這幾年GDP的成長，事實上比韓國要好……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，經濟成長率是好的，但是實質薪資的部分其實還有很大的……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：主要是去年的物價上漲稍微高一點，今年我們已經下來了……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我希望這是一個長遠的目標，好不好？還是要持續的、不斷的想辦法提升我們的實質薪資，不管是對於年輕世代以及很多人都會有很大的助益，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這也是國發會的一個重要工作，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請張委員嘉郡發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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謝主席好請公出位"},{"start":19.513,"end":29.377,"text":"國際能源價格的高漲的部分這是全球面臨到的問題全世界各國都遇到這個問題當然台灣我認為其實不論哪一黨在執政也都面臨到這個問題這個是必須去面對的"},{"start":33.638,"end":36.619,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":56.823,"end":61.605,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算"},{"start":72.623,"end":93.622,"text":"八位委員因為當初主委總數這件事情還沒有發生之前預估大概1.85左右那如果單純從電價來講我們說會直接反應大概會0.1多%那如果有一些波及的一些效果的話可能會再增加一點點不過因為現在0.2到0.3"},{"start":96.084,"end":97.465,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":116.053,"end":144.173,"text":"所以說國發會整體的評估它對物價的這個影響部分包括剛剛講到延伸性的這些你們現在的評估大概會是多少的一個數字對 所以就是說原來預估到0.2、0.3嘛但是因為有了配套措施的話我想對於這0.2、0.3來講會稍微再少一點點會再少一點點因為雖然漲幅比原先的10%再多一點11啦但是剛剛講的兩個不管是升息跟加上整個一些大眾物資的這個"},{"start":145.214,"end":148.259,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金、離島建設基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":161.239,"end":183.94,"text":"還是相對低的因為從去年跟前年到今年我們都是這樣因為其他的國家比如說在前年跟去年的時候他們都高達8%、9%我們都來差不多2.9%然後去年是2.4%多那今年可能就2%左右那這個是相對非常非常平穩的"},{"start":184.801,"end":202.993,"text":"主委那我也看到因為你在撥補那一塊是寫到1000億以上至少1000億那將來有沒有可能會再增加那就要看我們7月份以後才整個去年度的預算才會真正的確定下來那時候才知道說到底"},{"start":203.473,"end":205.455,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":218.43,"end":241.075,"text":"那再來今天要請教其實這次的電價調漲裡面對於這個賺錢的像半導體、晶圓代工等等這個當然因為他們本身的獲利相當好就漲足嘛但是對於很多的一些傳統產業特別像鋼鐵、水泥等等這個因為剛好他們也是用電的那個其實影響是不小的主要怎麼看怎麼來怎麼來看待這個產業的影響"},{"start":242.715,"end":266.625,"text":"所以經濟部在這個電價調整對於獲利跟非獲利或是傳統的部分它還是有一些不一樣的一些方案而且對於可能受影響比較大的部分甚至於還有一些協助的一些做法比如說我們12特別預算特別條例的實施怎麼樣來讓這些產業度過難關讓它更智慧化節能減碳更好"},{"start":271.187,"end":285.591,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算"},{"start":298.574,"end":322.475,"text":"目前看到的情況是持續的平穩的復甦當中至少在這個包括您這邊提到的相關的這個ICT產業高效能預算、人工智慧、車用電池這個還是會持續的增加那傳統產業的部分比如說機械業等等一些它的庫存也慢慢的不過它可能稍微晚一點到下半年也許慢慢的會"},{"start":322.915,"end":329.417,"text":"整個企劃也都完畢了嘛所以照理說應該是會起來那這一次的電價這個部分會不會影響到他們整個的速度"},{"start":330.345,"end":351.831,"text":"所以剛剛特別提到經部也有相關的配套措施對於個別企業如果需要協助的話包括貸款的部分還是會持續即便升息我們會那個利息補助還會持續然後如果他要做簡簡單單的這個轉型也有相關的一些補助甚至於我們也鼓勵這些企業善用這個時間電價不要再這個就是"},{"start":355.872,"end":364.378,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及審查113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":385.191,"end":409.045,"text":"最後剩一些時間我問一下離島建設條例今天有討論到我還是強烈的建議上次也跟主委提過很多次基金本身它本來是半島但是是因為開港之後才變成了離島但是離島的建設條例的條文本身沒有把它排除但是在施行細則裡面用隔離的方式把它排除因為過往隧道過往隧道其實它都是有連線性的我還是希望"},{"start":409.865,"end":412.449,"text":"處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":427.128,"end":430.051,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金、離島建設基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":450.131,"end":463.034,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算"},{"start":479.978,"end":484.882,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":495.585,"end":523.036,"text":"我們這幾年的這個GDP的成長事實上比韓國要好對 經濟成長一定是好的但是實質薪資的部分其實還有很大的主要是去年它的這個物價上漲稍微高一點那今年我們已經下來了主委我也希望這是一個長遠的目標好不好就是還是要持續的不斷的想辦法去提升我們的實質的一些薪資這個對於不管是年輕的世代或對很多會有很大的一些注意好不好我想這也是國發一個重要的工作好 謝謝"},{"start":526.337,"end":526.482,"text":"謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"150344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1df2667b0e96b0c4e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a65993ba96f61a712e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:46:09 - 10:56:02","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":593,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:56:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:46:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時46分）請許部長跟鄒署長。"],["主席：請許部長跟鄒署長。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。"],["許部長銘春：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：看到我就是看到原住民的問題。以這兩年原住民因為職災發生死亡或工傷的數據而言，民國111年原住民族整體災害千人率失能為3.48，與前兩年比較確實有下降，這是我們看到的數字。不過如果從死亡率來看，最右邊兩列可以看到，110年是0.062，111年為0.109，增加了將近兩倍，與109年相比，則增加了三倍。雖然整體災害減少了，不過死亡數字是增加的，你們有沒有做這方面的關心或研究？"],["許部長銘春：這部分我請署長說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。確實，我們知道去年跟前年原住民在工作上的職災死亡是增加的，所以這兩年針對部落進行工安宣導，特別是透過豐年祭等相關活動做很多宣導與展開……"],["盧委員縣一：跟一般勞工相比，我們大概是幾倍？去年勞工死亡人數是320人，原住民22人。按照人口比例來看，應該只有8人，也就是我們多了十幾個人死掉，就比例來說風險相對是高的，對不對？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，大部分原住民會從事的工作，風險確實相對比較高，所以如何在這種相對風險高的情況下，告訴原住民如何自保是很重要的。當然，我們也必須要求這些事業單位在防災時，要特別注意整個安全的展開，如營造業，原住民在營造業的數字滿多的。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，因為我特別關心原住民的議題，早上也看了勞動部的原住民網頁，網頁的更新是到今天，應該有很認真在更新。不過以瀏覽人數來說，我們的勞工人數是20萬，可是真正去關心過這個網頁的勞工才3,000人而已。所以希望就我們原住民的勞工權益、宣導，應該讓他們知道你們到底在努力什麼，好不好？不然很少人知道你們在做什麼，也不會知道該如何尋求協助。"],["許部長銘春：是，好。"],["盧委員縣一：就職業失能量化來說，應該看得到是暫時的，還是永久的？因為現在這樣我看不出來！像14是營造業，總計有32人，這樣根本不知道他到底有多嚴重，也看不出來！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，勞保局針對職業失能給付時，會依不同等級判斷，看他是什麼樣的等級。這部分後臺有比較細緻的資料，這裡是統計分析的說明，所以我跟委員說明一下。"],["盧委員縣一：以職業死亡為例，比如有22人，是不是每一個死亡者都應該要有case studying？"],["鄒署長子廉：有。"],["盧委員縣一：至於最後的其他服務業則太粗略了，人都已經死了還不知道他是什麼工作？這會讓人覺得很奇怪！不能太簡化他的死亡！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，每一個死亡案件，我們都會做職災調查報告，即有關其肇災原因及如何做法規的究責處理。其次是職災補償方面，雇主有沒有給予補償？這點我們會做進一步的分析、瞭解跟處置。如果沒有職災補償，後面所牽涉到的法律問題與處罰問題，我們也會再做。所以我們會針對個案做比較細緻的職災調查報告與分析。"],["盧委員縣一：職災的發生，我們都知道是不安全的工作環境與不安全的工作行為所致，可是目前勞動檢查員才1,033位，職業安全部分則小於700位，這樣你們如何達成相關檢測？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，所有的安全衛生管理都是雇主的責任，政府是監督端，所以勞動監督檢查應該是抽重點、抽風險比較高的部分優先做監督檢查；比較屬於中低風險的，我們期待雇主能有管理系統做每天的、正常的……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是說量夠不夠？檢查員的數量夠不夠？畢竟只有一千多位！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，臺灣檢查員與勞工人數的配比，在國際上應該算是正常的，並未偏低。"],["盧委員縣一：既然這樣，你可以呈現這樣的數據出來，讓大家知道確實有做到，可以嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：是，好。"],["盧委員縣一：不然配置偏低，工作安全沒人把關，我們都知道……"],["許部長銘春：OECD有設置標準，我們再提供給委員。"],["盧委員縣一：好。大家都知道原住民勞工大概都在營造業，甚至運輸、倉儲都有，我希望對這種比較特殊的行業或風險比較高的行業能有安全建議，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["盧委員縣一：明明知道他是做這個工作，卻沒有規範或準則讓他知道怎麼樣的工作行為才是安全的。我沒有看到工作建議、安全建議啊？是不是應該要看到？因為我查不到所謂的safety suggestion！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，其實比較高風險的部分應該有教育訓練，且應要求每個勞工都要有教育訓練，比如營造業就有3加3小時教育訓練，之後才有資格去現場工作。這部分我們希望現場的監督管理，在入場管制時就要瞭解他有沒有做教育訓練始能進場工作，這個我們在……"],["盧委員縣一：關於墜落職災這部分，我們都知道是大包轉小包，層層轉包，所以裁罰對大包來說，也就是業主根本不痛不癢！能不能透過勒令停工來真正嚇阻這樣的行為？部長覺得呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，其實以我們的檢查來說，如果發現有立即危險之虞，我們不但處罰，也會停工；停工之後提出復工的申請時，我們會去現場檢查、去現場看，唯有達到我們的安全標準才可以讓他復工，而營造業算是我們的檢查重點。"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，這其實我們是最主要的手段，去檢查的時候發現違規就是……"],["盧委員縣一：現在是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["盧委員縣一：現在有些人是從事派遣臨時工，但是當意外發生時常常都自掏腰包，怕被檢舉，這點你們知道嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：民眾會擔心所謂的職災黑數，除了消防隊員會在第一時間跟我們的聯繫平臺報告外，我們現在也透過醫院端瞭解，如果發現疑似職業病或職業災害，也會透過系統回報。特別跟委員報告，我們不希望這類事情被隱瞞，所以我們鼓勵當事人或當事朋友，透過職災通報也給我們一些訊息。因此，新的災防法通過之後，我們也擴大了職災通報網絡，鼓勵……"],["盧委員縣一：有數據嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：有。"],["盧委員縣一：有數據的話請給我？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來就是勞檢部分，目前營造業、製造業占了相當大比例，可是勞檢次數可能不夠，這方面你們要如何精進改善？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，我還是要強調不是每一家事業單位都要去檢查！我們是以風險分級來做監督檢查！至於事業端也設置有安全管理人員，必須做自己內部的管理系統展開，我們則透過勞工吹哨者或外面的申訴、檢舉來做監督檢查。所以有關覆蓋率問題，其實世界各國不太談這塊的覆蓋率，至於如何有效保護第一線勞工的安全衛生，從監督檢查與事業端自主管理著手，我覺得應該可以由此來互相精進改善。"],["盧委員縣一：因為時間關係，我希望原住民族委員會能建立通報聯繫機制，也就是你們跟他們的通報聯繫機制並告訴他們，如果有勞工發生職災時，可以透過原住民關懷或家庭服務中心一起協助他們獲得社會支援。","最後，關於工作歧視問題，OECD針對普遍民眾做了工作歧視的認知研究，請問臺灣有沒有這方面的研究？現在做得最好的是芬蘭，大概有超過70%、將近80%民眾在工作上遇到騷擾或歧視時知道要爭取合法的權益，我認為這是我們全民都應該要知道的，希望勞動部也可以推動，消除工作上的歧視與騷擾，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.41784375,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.54284375,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.20471875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.06909375,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.727218750000002,"end":28.617218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.97159375,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.16096875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.462843750000005,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.141593750000006,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.625968750000006,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.54534375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.63784375,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.94846875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.17534375000001,"end":78.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.51659375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.70221875,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.76971875000001,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.09034375,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.10721875,"end":79.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.87471875,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.49846875,"end":86.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.89846875,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.16784375,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.50096875000001,"end":116.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.05659375,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.36034375000001,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.82846875000001,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.75534375000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.53534375000001,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.25034375,"end":135.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.29659375,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.18721875,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.86096875,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.13096875000002,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.14784375000002,"end":170.1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study應該要有"},{"start":226.781,"end":232.227,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":242.737,"end":244.578,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":258.929,"end":263.975,"text":"二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":281.385,"end":299.393,"text":"所有的安全衛生管理應該都是僱主負責僱主的責任那我們政府是監督端所以我們勞動監督檢查應該是重點做風險比較高的部分優先做監督檢查那比較屬於中低風險我們就期待僱主能夠有個管理系統做每天的正常的循環我意思是說這個量夠不夠這個檢察員的量夠不夠數量"},{"start":303.735,"end":323.277,"text":"根本包括我們的臺灣的檢察員的配比跟勞工旅遊配比已經在國際應該算是正常的沒有太多配提你可以呈現這樣的數據讓大家知道說確實有做到這樣子可以嗎不然會覺得說你算偏低了然後我們這個工作安全都沒有人去把關"},{"start":324.538,"end":328.965,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":340.101,"end":364.963,"text":"這種比較特殊行業或者說風險比較高的一些安全的建議好不好你明明知道他是做這個工作可是他卻不知道如何去規範或者說去一個準則讓他知道說怎麼樣的工作行為是安全的我沒有看到工作建議安全建議啊是不是應該要看到因為我去查的時候查不到所以為了安全建議"},{"start":366.772,"end":394.991,"text":"各位報告其實比較高風險的部分我們所謂教育訓練應該會要求每個勞工有一定的教育訓練比如營造業我們3加3小時的教育訓練他才可以資格去現場做工作那這部分我們希望現場的監督管理入場管制就要了解他有沒有做教育訓練才能進場來作業關於那個墜落職災這個部分常常就是我們都知道是大包轉小包這樣給底下的下游廠商的採訪對大包的就是業主"},{"start":395.931,"end":419.183,"text":"不痛不癢,那能不能透過樂立停工來真正嚇阻這樣的一個行為?部長覺得呢?各位有報告,其實我們的檢查如果它發生有立即危險之餘,我們不但處罰也會做停工。停工它提出復工的申請,那我們先來檢查去現場看復工,達到我們的安全標準才可以讓它復工。確實營造業部分這個算是我們的檢查的重點。"},{"start":421.212,"end":437.583,"text":"我們其實這個很最主要的手段去檢查的時候發現違規就是希望是這樣那就是還有一些就是從事臨時工的派遣他發生意外的時候常常都是其實是這套腰包去坐車因為不敢被檢舉所以你這方面你知道嗎"},{"start":439.601,"end":455.08,"text":"這個委員就是民眾會擔心我們有那個植栽黑樹那我們除了第一時間消防隊員跟我們的聯繫的平台有報告之外我們現在透過醫院端如果發現疑似是職業病或職業災害的部分也會透過我們這個系統來做回報那特別跟委員報告"},{"start":456.175,"end":469.268,"text":"我們也不希望像這樣的事情會被隱瞞掉我們鼓勵當事人或當事朋友在我們職災通報裡面也給我們一些訊息所以我們在新的災報通過之後我們有職災通報的一個厚道網絡鼓勵有數據嗎?是"},{"start":472.071,"end":486.006,"text":"有數據嗎 有數據再給我囉接下來就是說我們的那個勞檢的部分就是我們營造業跟製造業占了相當大的比例可是我們勞檢可能數目可能不夠那這方面你要怎麼做一個經濟改善"},{"start":490.976,"end":508.665,"text":"各位報告好我還是強調說我們不是每一家事業單位都要去檢查是這種風險分級來做我們的監督檢查那事業端裡面也有設置安全管理人員他做自己內部的管理的系統的展開那我們也可以透過勞工的吹哨子或是"},{"start":509.245,"end":514.407,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":529.132,"end":550.052,"text":"原住民組委員會有建立一個通報聯繫機制你們可以跟他們一個通報聯繫機制如果有發生質在的勞工告訴他們他們可以透過我們原住民的關懷或者是說我們一個叫家庭服務中心來一起來協助他們獲得社會的資源再最後一個就是說關於工作上歧視的問題挑到最後一個"},{"start":551.704,"end":564.949,"text":"就是在OECD國家他有做一些研究然後就是對普遍的民眾做了一個對你如果你在工作上受到歧視的一個認知那我們台灣有沒有做這方面的研究像現在作業"},{"start":567.547,"end":588.239,"text":"現在最好的是芬蘭大概是他們全民有大概超過70、將近80%的對一個在工作上遇到騷擾或者說歧視的時候它是一個合法的權益是全民都應該要知道的一個所謂的智能那希望勞動部這邊也可以推動全民的一個消除歧視工作上的歧視跟騷擾這樣子可以嗎?好謝謝盧憲宜委員"}]}},{"id":"150343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bf899a2715f04fa7a8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6edb2bd07d2a46ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:43:15 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10:54:11","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":656,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:54:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:43:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時43分）謝謝主席。我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：NCC副主委。"],["主席：NCC翁副主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有數發部。"],["主席：數發部政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好。我想大部分的詐騙都是來自於所謂的釣魚簡訊，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該一部分吧。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其是假冒銀行、假冒投資，我的手機已經沒有什麼朋友會傳真正的簡訊，因為大家都用其他的通訊軟體，來的簡訊幾乎不是借錢就是詐騙，我看到去年9月份金管會銀行局曾經說，銀行公會訂定自律規範，發送簡訊的話，只可以連結到官網進行廣告的宣傳、提醒告知，不可以要求民眾輸入任何的交易資訊，這是金管會的政策，是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是，主委，我每天還是會接到我的銀行發簡訊，說你的訊息怎麼樣，連結之後，還是叫我去打身分證字號去查轉帳的結果，簡訊不是不能再有這些東西了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想確認一下那個不是詐騙。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是詐騙，但是銀行沒有按照銀行局的要求來辦。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是不是請局長說明一下？"],["黃委員珊珊：還有發生，而且每天都在發生。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，如果有這個情況，那個規範怎麼……"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們當時其實是希望銀行在發重要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以只是軟性的要求，沒有任何強制力，是嗎？像我看到了，我可能不會上去，但民眾還是會上去，這種釣魚的可能還是會上當，好不好？如果銀行局真的有這樣的要求，就是按照規定請所有的銀行都照辦。"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分是數發部，我們有很多的政府部門已經用短碼了，這些銀行可不可以要求他們也用短碼來做相關的處理？因為短碼比較不容易被引到詐騙集團那邊去，對吧？"],["李次長懷仁：是，跟委員報告，我們這個禮拜會跟公股銀行討論，原則上公股銀行就會導入。"],["黃委員珊珊：公股銀行一定要做，請問金管會，我們也希望民間銀行來做，這並不難，對吧？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，我這邊稍微補充說明，民間銀行我們之前有接觸，民間銀行有自己的商業考量，他們想用自己的短碼。"],["黃委員珊珊：也可以，只要有短碼，這部分可不可以請數發部跟NCC一起在簡訊管理上希望他們都申請短碼？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這部分假使是商用的短碼，NCC現在跟電信業者還有簡訊平臺的代發業者已經商討了，會有一個6碼的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：民營銀行的部分，我們正在推動，我們會推動電信的信任產業，讓它能發展。"],["黃委員珊珊：當簡訊已經成為詐騙集團最好的工具的時候，短碼這件事情現在立刻就可以減少一大半的簡訊詐騙，所以金管會對於銀行的要求，我們至少要求合法的銀行納入所謂的短碼部分，我覺得進度要更快一些。"],["黃主任委員天牧：包括您剛才垂詢的，不好意思！在個人的簡訊上，我們對公會的規範會再要求強化。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這是第一點。","第二個部分，時間暫停，請法務部也一起。"],["主席：請法務部黃謀信常次。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天的打詐綱領1.5，我們看到很多報告，法務部裡面有一筆錢是要建立所謂的AI分析平臺，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，你要做的AI是把目前的相關資料用人工智慧做一些統計分析，但是你有沒有來自銀行端、金管會或者是虛擬資產相關的資訊？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們這筆AI平臺的費用編在調查局，事實上就是要嫁接我們正在建的金融平臺的一些資料，透過這個系統嫁接到調查局。"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會黃主委，現在打詐應該是全國最重要的一件事，我們打詐裡面最重要的是錢，我們不是要抓那個人，我們主要是要把錢留在帳戶裡面或者讓它流不出去，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：人也很重要，要跟檢調合作。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以重點是抓到人，但是抓到人沒有用，因為錢追不回來，現在的問題在於銀行端，如果可以在臨櫃攔截就攔截住了，但如果沒有在臨櫃攔截，等到警示帳戶的時候，警示帳戶的錢早就出去了，所以我們現在打詐除了阻絕相關的詐騙來源之外，最重要的是把錢留在帳戶裡面，讓它流不出去、讓詐騙集團拿不到錢，整個詐騙的犯罪才不會繼續猖獗，這才是我覺得很重要的一塊。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這也是我們努力的目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在全球國際防制洗錢組織在推動一個AI的預警模式，我們法務部看起來是比較後端的，現在國際上是前端的人工智慧預警模式。現在金管會有相關的警示帳戶資料，銀行也都有，法務部也有這些被詐騙的受害者資料，我們從金管會所有相關的警示帳戶，還有接下來的這些訊息都可以看得出來，我講一個簡單的例子，上一次的im.B受害人表示，有一個他們匯錢進去的個人帳戶在那一年進出57億，這個帳戶非常明顯異常，可是我們沒有任何預警機制，一個帳戶大量進出五十幾億的款項，我們整個銀行體制沒有任何的預警措施。所以主委，我們現在要做的不單單只是銀行臨櫃，臨櫃沒有警示帳戶也不能禁止人家領錢或禁止人家匯款，但是如果一個帳戶已經離譜到這種情況，我們是不是應該有一個預警機制？國際防制洗錢機制已經開始往這個方向處理，現在好像是富邦銀行有一個相關的鷹眼聯盟，是嗎？銀行局要代表說明一下嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實委員垂詢的方向也是我們努力的方向，不論你說的鷹眼或是什麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是，主委，國際已經是這個方向了，銀行也在做了，法務部也編錢了，你們也有1.5的綱領了，我們是不是要做一個國家級的預警機制？用人工智慧把所有可能已經發生的警示帳戶也好、受害人帳戶也好，還有剛剛講到大量短時間進出的，讓銀行可以把這些訊息都拿出來訓練機器做出預警方式，如果這個帳戶常常這樣，我們要有預警的狀況，這樣的話我們就可以授權相關的單位做一些monitor，甚至直接阻斷它的出金，流進去的錢要有限制地流出。"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段有……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我要做的是除了剛剛講的，我們希望能建立一個國家級的AI預警機制，而不是靠著銀行，連富邦銀行都在做的事，中華民國政府應該扛起來做。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是不只有打詐辦公室，而是真的要做國家可以做的，為什麼要國家來做？因為銀行只能拿到自己的資料，銀行拿不到法務部的資料，而且銀行拿不到虛擬資產的資料、拿不到第三方支付的資料，如果可以由金管會、法務部來做，你們都要往這個方向走，我希望建立一個國家級的人工智慧預警機制，我們才能把錢留在那個奇怪的帳戶，讓它流不出去，抓到人才抓得到錢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員的垂詢我覺得也是大家努力的方向，不過牽涉到跨部會，我們會把這個構想帶到打詐平臺去做討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果富邦銀行做得到，如果國際防制洗錢組織都在做，法務部也編了這個錢，其實就是去把這些資訊嫁接起來，就像剛剛講的。第二個，虛擬資產、第三方支付等各部分變成一個平臺，而這個平臺的帳戶由金管會操控，我們才有機會把錢留下來，當它從這個水庫流到那個水庫之後，你再花多少人力、物力都是沒有用的，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，雖然520才要交接，但我希望一個月之內由法務部、數發部甚至是NCC、金管會，就所謂的人工智慧怎麼處理這個預警機制，不應該發生一個帳戶進出五十幾億卻沒有人發現，銀行通報也沒有用，因為沒有犯罪、沒有警示，五十幾億就這樣進進出出、來來去去，被害人看到做何感想？他沒有犯罪，但他騙了那麼多投資人的錢，最後抓出來，他還可以吃香喝辣，他們的人還可以開跑車，完全沒有任何的方式去限制他，我覺得這是一個很可怕的事，好嗎？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們照委員提示的方向，跨部會去做一些溝通，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望這個1.5不只是一個單純的機制，我希望它是一個真正有效的國家級AI預警機制，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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主委我們現在要做的不只是單單的只是銀行零貴啊零貴沒有警示帳戶他也不能禁止人家領錢或者是禁止人家匯款"},{"start":418.3,"end":434.5,"text":"但是如果一個帳戶已經離譜到這種情況我們是不是應該有一個預警機制所以國際洗錢機制他們已經開始往這個方向處理那現在好像銀行部分是富邦銀行有一個相關的因緣"},{"start":435.7,"end":435.84,"text":"主委"},{"start":451.08,"end":467.149,"text":"國際已經是這個方向了銀行也在做了政府、法務部也編了錢了你們也有1.5的綱領了我們是不是要做一個國家級的預警機制用人工智慧把這種可能已經發生的所有的警視帳戶也好受害人帳戶也好還有剛剛講的大量短時間進出的"},{"start":471.951,"end":493.438,"text":"讓銀行可以把這些訊息都能拿上來我們訓練機器去做出預警的方式這個帳戶常常這樣我們要預警的狀況如果是這樣的話我們就可以授權相關的單位去做一些monitor甚至直接阻斷他的出金不讓他流進去的錢要讓他有限制的流出"},{"start":494.352,"end":510.078,"text":"主委,我要做的是除了剛剛講的我們希望能夠建立一個國家級的AI預警機制而不是靠著銀行連富邦銀行都在做的事中華民國政府應該扛起來做"},{"start":511.994,"end":528.71,"text":"主任我的意思不是只有打詐辦公室而是真的要把這些國家可以為什麼要國家來做因為銀行只能拿到他自己的資料銀行拿不到法務部的資料而且銀行拿不到虛擬資產的資料拿不到第三方支付的資料"},{"start":529.551,"end":544.472,"text":"如果可以由金管會、法務部你們都要往這個方向走我希望建立的是一個國家級的人工智慧預警機制我們才能把錢留在那個奇怪的賬戶讓他留不出去抓到人才抓得到錢"},{"start":545.868,"end":546.008,"text":"黃柱蕾"},{"start":563.883,"end":566.924,"text":"我希望在雖然5月520才要交接但是我希望一個月之內法務部"},{"start":592.329,"end":617.046,"text":"訴發部甚至NCC甚至金管會就所謂的人工智慧怎麼來處理這個預警機制不應該發生一個賬戶進出五十幾億沒有人發現銀行通報了沒有用因為他沒有犯罪他沒有警示他就進進出出五十幾億就這樣來來去去被害人看到了你做何感想他沒有犯罪啊"},{"start":617.927,"end":618.027,"text":"謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":651.977,"end":654.167,"text":"接著請李坤臣立委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bf6b2a24941aef9f9756a31bd31097f3af8ba9b0039caa7a6005469f5b3eb61915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:47:29 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農業部主管"},{"start":186.007,"end":202,"text":"海洋產業發展條例歸海委會主管未來在這兩個法上能夠提供何種有利措施保障漁民保障漁會的權益這兩個問題主管機關應該到全台的漁業各地跟受影響者說明清楚"},{"start":202.78,"end":227.33,"text":"而海保法的草案指規範沒有協助的方案對漁民相當的不利若無法在本法中制定補償的措施就應該在其他法規中修訂總不能要漁民自己找出路海洋保育要做但是漁民的生計權益也要顧行政本委一體海洋海委會跟農業部應該提出具體的措施保障漁民的權益目前海保法第23條"},{"start":229.171,"end":255.307,"text":"第20至23條規定如果闖進海洋庇護區的核心區最高要罰款50萬元闖入緩衝區最高要罰30萬元違反永續利用禁止行為者最高要罰15元在我們的這個草案裡面都沒有提到被如何的配套輔導跟補償的措施但是對於罰款倒是定的十分嚴苛其中最令漁民感到困惑的是闖入海洋庇護區的核心區海上沒有柵欄"},{"start":256.147,"end":268.106,"text":"移民若不小心闖入庇護核心區就要被處罰,處地機制該怎麼執行?局日要說,如果捕魚導致不小心漂進核心區,要不要處罰?依據海委會現行的規範,什麼樣的狀況可以不處罰?"},{"start":271.331,"end":293.048,"text":"所以我認為,非故意且無重大違規情勢,經勸導使離核心區者,不予處罰。為了有永續的海洋資源可以利用,海洋保育與漁業管理需要大量的時間跟資源來建立及維持。所以在保育及資源管理上,畫設海洋庫區是相對簡單而有效的做法。"},{"start":293.308,"end":293.668,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005be6d89b5e48345555cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6761d7bf9d56e7b835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:43:27 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10:52:35","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":548,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:52:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:43:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時43分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["王部長國材：陳委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安。我想今天委員們都很關心重大交通建設的推動，本席想先請部長就國家在推動重大交通建設的流程，是不是請部長簡單說一下這個流程？"],["王部長國材：是。現在整個交通部所謂個案計畫都是按照行政院中長程個案計畫審議辦法來處理，意思是說它是經過可行性研究、綜合規劃，這兩個核定以後再環評通過，整個核定後我們每一年就開始編預算給它，比如一開始的設計費用，以及後來的興建費用，目前所有全國的交通建設都是走這樣的程序。所以比較沒有用特別條例，就是還沒有走這個程序就定的狀況。"],["陳委員素月：好。我們知道交通建設可以帶動地方發展，每一個委員因為是受到地方鄉親的支持，所以當選、進入國會，當然就是關心地方的交通建設，為地方爭取重大交通建設，這都是天經地義、無可厚非的，所以我們也尊重傅委員為地方爭取花東快速公路。我再請教部長，就花東快的部分，目前是有在進行當中，是不是？"],["王部長國材：是，跟委員報告，花東快在102年馬總統時代有啟動，但在105年就說不可行，就中斷了；在108年，我記得當時徐榛蔚委員有提一個臨時動議，在交委會有通過，我們也覺得花東快可以再重啟，所以當時交通部也沒有反對的意見，現在已經進入可行性的期末報告階段，在8月會提出一個報告，但這是委託顧問公司所做的報告，然後我們就開始走我們的程序。"],["陳委員素月：委託顧問公司就是委託他們就專業的部分去做評估嘛，也絕對不是以某個人個人的意志去決定可不可行，是不是？"],["王部長國材：是，所有的計畫都一樣。"],["陳委員素月：所有的計畫都一樣嘛，所以你說馬英九政府執政的時候，國民黨執政所做的可行性評估，那時候的評估結論就是不可行嘛。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["陳委員素月：所以馬英九政府也是尊重專業，就是不可行，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員素月：所以在蔡英文總統執政後，我們又再次重啟花東快的可行性評估，這也證明蔡英文總統執政是重視花東地區的交通建設，是不是？"],["王部長國材：是，我們都非常支持。"],["陳委員素月：非常支持，所以我們用實際的行動來重啟花東快的可行性評估，這個我們要讓花東地區的鄉親知道，也要讓全國的民眾知道，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員素月：本席要再請教，剛剛部長有先講了一下重大交通建設的流程，這都有一定的流程，目前花東快的流程已經走到可行性評估，預計在今年8月會出爐，我們先不論可行性評估的結果如何，我想先請教，這個花東快如果走完全部的程序，就是包括環評、環差都通過，符合環評，也經行政院審議之後，你支持這一個建設嗎？"],["王部長國材：如果都通過，我支持啊，就是這個程序走完，如果每個程序都走過，當然我們也會儘量去克服，比如有一些審查中他們覺得有問題的，我們也會儘量去克服，如果通過，我們一定支持，但是的確要用一個客觀、嚴謹的程序來進行。"],["陳委員素月：對，就是只要走完這個流程，都符合程序的話，交通部是絕對支持花東快的嘛。"],["王部長國材：是，會支持。"],["陳委員素月：所以本席接下來要請教，交通部在蔡英文總統執政這幾年，對於花東地區的交通建設，就是鐵路、公路的建設，總共投入超過3,000億，就這些建設，目前有已完工的、有執行中的，也有在規劃當中的，這些計畫中有哪個計畫是沒有按照這個程序走的？"],["王部長國材：全部都是走這個程序。"],["陳委員素月：沒有例外？"],["王部長國材：而且我們都儘量加速，能夠進行的都加速，全部都是。"],["陳委員素月：都加速嗎？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員素月：所以在此要再次讓鄉親知道，重大交通建設一定要按照這個程序來走，這是沒有例外的嘛。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員素月：因為你如果用一個特別條例來匡住預算，這就違反了預算跟行政權在憲法中的相關規定，是不是？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，事實上交通部在全國的交通建設有一套藍圖，這個藍圖包括東部的部分，尤其鐵公路的改善是我們最重要的部分，我們的意思是，在我們這個藍圖的架構下，每個個案計畫就走它的審查程序，我們逐步來完成。交通部非常支持花東、東部的建設，我們都非常支持。"],["陳委員素月：對，其實對於整個國內的重大交通建設，我想交通部應該是通盤來做考量，以交通建設的藍圖來推動，當然每一個地方的立委都是責無旁貸為自己地方的居民來爭取重大交通建設，不過我們還是要尊重憲法的體制，按照這個程序來走。","我們看到今天交通部的報告中也有提到，花東快速道路的推動如果用特別條例的方式來匡住預算有違憲之虞，這個部分是不是請部長再簡單講一下？"],["王部長國材：雖然它是一個法律案，但是裡面已經設定2,500億為上限，10年完成，還包括成立專責單位來督導，等於這裡面已經有一個計畫就要進行，現在要這樣做，而我們覺得雖然這是一個法律案，但有對於預算的條文在裡面，所以在跨部會討論是覺得跟憲法第七十條有些衝突，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員素月：如果這個特別條例通過了，部長你會怎麼做？"],["王部長國材：比如它裡面需要交通部長主持相關會議來促進，光這件事情，我們所有計畫都是很客觀的，這樣的話，每一個建設都要部長來……比如臺南的建設、彰化的建設……"],["陳委員素月：對，如果開了這個先例，有的委員也會為自己區的建設提出特別條例，我想這樣就整個都亂了。所以我覺得如果這個真的違反憲政體制，強行通過，我建議部長直接提釋憲，這樣才不會亂掉，是不是？"],["王部長國材：我想釋憲是可以討論，但最重要的是，交通部從專業來講是全國一致，如果這個破例了，那真的是每一個都可以做特別條例，會有這種狀況，這樣未來交通部整體建設的藍圖還有我們的審查機制都不見了，就等於預先要走這樣的條例，開始去開會、去促進它、經費要預留多少錢等等，也有可能後面某一些案子審查不通過，那我弄了老半天，而且我還去主動開會讓它過，這樣就失去公平嚴謹的審查。"],["陳委員素月：好。本席在這邊也要強調，我也支持花東快速公路的建設，可是我們還是要強調，還是要在符合憲政體制下來推動。謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的發言。","休息10分鐘。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席：開會。","下一位請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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﹖﹖"},{"start":155.447,"end":172.801,"text":"所以你說就馬英九政府執政的時候他們國民黨執政他們做這個可行性評估那時候的評估的結論就是不可行所以馬英九政府也是尊重專業就是不可行對不對"},{"start":173.442,"end":194.35,"text":"所以我們在蔡英文總統執政之後我們又再次的重啟了這個花東快的可行性評估所以這也證明我們蔡英文總統執政我們是重視花東地區的交通建設嘛是不是我們非常支持非常支持也是所以我們就是就實際的一個行動來重啟這個花東快的可行性評估嘛"},{"start":197.651,"end":222.274,"text":"所以這個我們要讓花東地區的鄉親知道嘛也要讓全國的民眾知道對不對是那本席在這邊再請教一下就是說就剛剛部長有先講了一下重大交通建設的一個流程就是有一定的流程那目前花東快的流程是已經走到可行性評估那預計在今年的8月會出爐嘛是"},{"start":222.734,"end":244.385,"text":"那我們先不論說這個可信性評估的結果是如何我想先請教一下就是說這個花東快的程序如果說走完全部的一個程序就是說包括它的環評環差都通過符合環評然後也經行政院審議了之後那你支持這一個建設嗎"},{"start":245.823,"end":262.983,"text":"我覺得如果都通過我支持就是說我當然我就是說這個程序走完如果都每一個程序都走過當然我們也會盡量去克服比如說有些審查中如果他們覺得問題我們會盡量去克服如果通過我們一定支持但是的確要有一個客觀這個嚴謹的程序來進行"},{"start":265.982,"end":288.336,"text":"對就是只要走完這個流程都符合程序的話交通部是絕對支持花東快的所以本席在這邊在接下來請教就是說我們交通部在這幾年就是蔡英文總統執政這幾年對花東地區的這個交通建設就是鐵路公路的建設我們總共投入了超過3000億"},{"start":290.057,"end":301.674,"text":"那就這一些建設目前有已完工的有執行中的也有在規劃當中的那這一些計畫當中有哪一個計畫是沒有按照這個程序走的"},{"start":302.056,"end":332.056,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":333.577,"end":360.286,"text":"因為我跟委員報告事實上交通部在全國的交通建設我們有一套藍圖那這個藍圖就包括這個東部裡面的尤其鐵公路的改善是我們最重要的一個部分那我們意思是說應該在我們這個藍圖的架構下每一個個案計畫就走它審查的程序那我們逐步把它完成那交通部非常的支持在花東的這方面的一個建設東部的建設我們都非常支持"},{"start":361.159,"end":374.677,"text":"對其實對於整個國內的中大交通建設我想交通部應該是站在一個統盤就是一個通盤的一個考量一個交通建設的藍圖來推動那當然每一個地方的立委都是責務龐大為"},{"start":376.459,"end":400.435,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":402.561,"end":412.614,"text":"主要雖然它是一個法律案但是它裡面就是已經設定說2500億當上限10年完成還有包括成立專責的單位來督導"},{"start":415.538,"end":444.462,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":445.657,"end":461.323,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":461.323,"end":462.824,"text":"我建議部長應該就直接提釋憲這樣子才不會亂掉啊是不是"},{"start":484.038,"end":506.397,"text":"我想說這個事件是這是可以討論但最重要是說我交通部從專業來講全國一致我如果是一個破了例那真的是每一個每一個都可以做一個特別條例是會有這種狀況那這樣未來在交通部的整體建設的藍圖還有我們審查的機制都不見了"},{"start":507.538,"end":530.765,"text":"對就會有這樣就等於說一先就就這個要要走這樣的條例開始去開會去促進他把經費要要這個一流多少錢等等的那這樣這樣跟後面有可能在後面某一些案子可能審查不通過那我弄了半天而且我還去主動的讓他就是開會讓他過那這樣的話就是失去一個公平嚴整嚴謹的一個審查"},{"start":532.025,"end":532.145,"text":"陳素月"}]}},{"id":"150340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b071d45a0fc7ff285cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a683776d75a58566785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:34:46 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10:42:22","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":456,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:42:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:34:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時34分）主席好，各位今天與會所有的各單位大家好。請王部長。"],["主席：王部長，請。"],["蔡委員其昌：陳局長也一起好了。"],["主席：陳局長。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，部長好。你贊不贊成讓花東人交通建設更完善？贊不贊成讓花東人回家的路更安全？"],["王部長國材：贊成，而且我支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，本席也贊成，雖然我不是花東人，但我也非常贊成、非常支持。所以，過去蔡政府執政八年投入多少建設在花東的交通建設？"],["王部長國材：我們執行中還有已經完成的大概有2,200億，那現在還有一些規劃，加起來大概3,000億。"],["蔡委員其昌：總共完成加規劃中的有3,000億的預算投入花東交通建設，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是，對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這個要跟大家說清楚，我看很多委員的質詢對你們的業務不是太瞭解，好像一副蔡政府這八年來對花東人漠不關心，交通建設投入3,000億，3,000億的交通建設。部長，我們今天討論花東快，過去花東快的歷史，馬英九總統他也做過、他也承諾要做花東快，對不對？所以他也依照程序在國民黨執政的時候進行花東快可行性評估。請問一下，最後有沒有通過？"],["王部長國材：馬總統時代在102年啟動，105年確定不可行。"],["蔡委員其昌：為什麼不可行？"],["王部長國材：主要是當時他們的報告就是什麼效益等等一些問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，馬總統評估完之後就告訴花東人說，這不可行！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：那蔡政府上臺之後，是不是又再一次啟動可行性評估？"],["王部長國材：對，就是剛才蔡委員所提的，我們覺得花東整個交通建設是很重要的，所以當時交委會108年的決議，我們是有接受……"],["蔡委員其昌：可行性評估現在進行到哪裡了？"],["王部長國材：現在在做可行性，今年8月會完成可行性報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以換言之，我們對於花東快速道路是正在進行當中，對不對？"],["王部長國材：正在進行，對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個建設蔡政府從109年開始，從第一個階段可行性評估開始做起，所以我們現在進行當中。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果可行性評估通過，下一個階段要進行什麼？"],["王部長國材：綜合規劃跟環評。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，綜合規劃跟環評如果這兩個都過了是不是就進行細部設計？"],["王部長國材：對，就會核定，然後就是編經費，開始每年做。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個就是臺灣所有重大建設、交通建設，我們一貫的行政程序就要這樣走。"],["王部長國材：對，所有的個案計畫都是走這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：都是走這樣。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，要讓大家瞭解嘛！所以本席支持花東快速道路要進行可行性評估，而且速度要快，到底可不可行，因為這個要給花東人一條安全回家的路、要讓花東的交通建設更完善，賴總統也支持，蕭副總統也支持，蔡總統也支持，而且現在正在進行當中，要讓大家去瞭解嘛！","好，但本席反對什麼，本席反對的是破壞憲法權力分立的原則，現在都在進行，為什麼要用一個條例來做？因為很簡單，為什麼我們的憲法裡面規定立法委員不可以要求增列預算，其實就是權力分立的概念嘛！這個條例裡面要求要編2,500億，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：用法律案來包這個預算案嘛！好，如果這個權力分立的原則被破壞，如果你們決定要破壞這個權力分立，我不講憲法，這個有沒有違憲反正最後要釋憲，但本席只講一個東西，如果這個案子過了，如果交通部也都同意的話，那你要趕快來跟本席講，本席有請辦公室寫了1個案子叫臺中重大建設特別條例，大概1兆，我算了一下我們有捷運南線、捷運橘線……捷運好多條嘛！這個是林市長、盧市長都列的，我們有國道4號要銜接西濱快速道路，我們有生活圈道路要接74號，這是臺中的最大環，我算一算大概1兆，而且我覺得交通部如果過了，剛剛很多委員，剛下去的魯明哲委員他也提了大竹交流道高架化，他其實也應該提一個大竹交流道高架化建設特別條例，不然的話，魯委員回去一定被人家罵，為什麼？傅委員可以提這個，那其實大家都可以提，也可以過啊！我就用這個方式，大家來提嘛，特別預算你要早早通知我們，我也跟你們交通部爭取很多，你也不見得什麼事都答應我啊，不要說我現在是委員，我當副院長時跟你要求，你也沒有每件事都答應我，我也很火大啊！我要為我們大臺中的建設來爭取，剛剛好多委員都問到他們家鄉的交通建設，你不可以厚此薄彼，這樣過了之後，你要通知大家都可以用特別建設條例來要求要多少預算，我也是法律案，我裡面只寫1兆而已，不會在預算審查再加1兆，不會，我會用法律案來規範1兆。","我作為臺中市的立法委員，我應該為大臺中來爭取，就像我也很願意為花東的鄉親講話一樣，案子進行中，你們要快速、要趕快，不然傅委員一定一直在爭取，這也合理，他為花東、花蓮的鄉親講話，這有什麼不合理？合理啊！但是如果可以用這種破壞憲法分立原則的方式來處理這件事情，那本席也要求要這樣來做，全臺灣、全立法委員、朝野政黨，輸人不輸陣啊！那我看你交通部也不用做了啦，每年預算都按照特別條例直接去執行就好了嘛。所以要趕快過，要趕快討論會不會過，你們當然有程序，到底會不會破壞環境，對於原住民保留地，原住民的部落會議會不會通過，這個本席不知道，但是我覺得站在交通部的立場，你們要積極趕快去溝通、協調，馬政府時代已經否決這個案子，蔡政府時代重啟對花東人的照顧，但是行政效率上你要去追，讓花東人有一條快速安全回家的道路。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實立法院過去蕭委員也很努力在講這個事情，加油啦！好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我再次強調，我支持花東快速道路可行性評估，進行當中要加速，但我反對破壞憲法權力分立原則，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝蔡委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。傅委員你去討論一下……"],["傅委員崐萁：蔡其昌副院長提的1兆我們全黨支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：太好了、太好了。"],["主席：好啦，我現在不知道怎麼當召委了，現在我們連國旗都從青天白日滿地紅變成青天白日滿地綠了，都沒事啦！"],["陳委員素月：五星旗也是綠啊。"],["主席：所以民進黨那個臺灣可以變藍的，不要變綠的。","欣純委員，素月委員講完就要休息10分鐘。"],["何委員欣純：好，沒關係，要10分鐘哦？"],["主席：我剛剛講10點半，因為素月委員來了，我不好意思。"],["何委員欣純：好。"],["主席：下一位請陳素月委員。詢答結束後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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這個要跟大家說清楚"},{"start":70.151,"end":92.789,"text":"我看很多委員的質詢對你們的業務不是太了解好像一副蔡政府這8年來對花東的人漠不關心交通建設投入3000億3000億的交通建設好部長過去花東快的歷史我們今天討論花東快過去花東快的歷史"},{"start":95.067,"end":116.822,"text":"馬英九總統他也做過他也承諾要做花東快對不對所以他也依照程序在國民黨執政的時候進行花東快的可行性評估請問一下最後在有沒有通過他是102年在馬總統時代102年啟動105年確定說不可行不可行好那為什麼不可行"},{"start":118.251,"end":120.953,"text":"蔡政府上台之後是不是又再一次啟動可行性評估?"},{"start":135.001,"end":155.86,"text":"我們是覺得就是剛才這個蔡委員所提的我們就覺得花東的這個整個的交通建設是很重要的所以當時在臨時這個交為108年的這個結議我們是有我們是有現在進行到哪裡的現在在做可行性在今年8月會完成這個可行性報告"},{"start":156.26,"end":176.613,"text":"所以換言之我們現在對於花東快速道路正在進行當中這個建設蔡政府從109年開始從第一個階段可行性評估開始做起所以我們現在進行當中如果可行性評估通過下一個階段要進行什麼綜合規劃跟環評對綜合規劃跟環評如果這兩個都過了是不是就進行細部設計對就核定"},{"start":182.196,"end":182.837,"text":"對,所有的個案計畫都是走這樣子。"},{"start":193.476,"end":217.882,"text":"要讓大家瞭解嘛所以本席啊支持花東快速道路啊要進行可行性評估而且速度要快到底可不可行因為這個要給花東人一條安全回家的路嘛要讓花東的交通建設更完善嘛賴總統也支持啊蕭副總統也支持啊蔡總統也支持而且現在正在進行當中啊要讓大家去了解嘛"},{"start":218.562,"end":239.511,"text":"好但本席反對什麼本席反對的是破壞憲法權利分立的這個原則現在都在進行啊那為什麼要用一個條例來做因為很簡單為什麼我們的憲法裡面規定不可以編不可以要立法院委員不可以要求政令預算他是就限列權利分立的概念嗎"},{"start":242.251,"end":253.226,"text":"這個條例裡面要求要編2500億對不對用法律案來包這個預算案嘛那如果這個權力分立的原則被破壞"},{"start":254.4,"end":279.751,"text":"如果你們決定要破壞這個權力分立我不講憲法啦就這有沒有違憲吼反正最後要釋憲啦最後要釋憲啦吼但本席只講一個東西如果這個案子過了如果要交通部也都同意的話那你要趕快來跟本席講本席有請辦公室編列寫了一個案子叫臺中重大建設特別條例大概一兆啦我算了一下我們有捷運南線捷運局線"},{"start":281.471,"end":306.679,"text":"結運好多條嘛這個是盧市長列的林市長盧市長都列的我們有那個國道4號要銜接那個西濱快速道路啊我們有生活圈的道路要接74號這是台中的最大環啊我算一算大概一兆而且我覺得你交通部如果過了剛剛很多委員剛剛下去魯明哲委員他也提了啊大足交流道高價化他其實也應該提一個大足"},{"start":308.213,"end":314.213,"text":"這個交流到高價化建設特別條例不然的話如果委員回去一定給人家罵為什麼"},{"start":315.663,"end":341.294,"text":"副委員可以提這個那其實大家都可以過阿我就用這個方式大家就來提嘛特別預算你要找找找要通知我們我也很多跟你們交通部爭取你也不見得什麼事都答應我阿不要講我現在是委員我當副院長跟你要求你也沒有每件事答應我我也很火大阿我要為我們大台中的建設來爭取嘛剛剛好多委員我看都問到他們家鄉的交通建設阿"},{"start":342.947,"end":360.537,"text":"你不可以厚恥薄筆啊這樣過了之後你要通知大家都可以用特別建設條例來直接要求多少預算我也是法律案喔我裡面只寫一兆而已我也是法律案我不會在你預算審查裡面再跟你加一兆不會我會用法律案來規範一兆"},{"start":362.455,"end":380.872,"text":"我作為台中市的立法委員我應該為大台中來爭取啊就像我也很願意為花東的鄉親來講話一樣嘛案子進行中嘛你們要快速要趕快嘛不然副委員一定一直在爭取這合理嘛他為花東的花蓮的鄉親講話這有什麼不合理啊"},{"start":381.854,"end":401.349,"text":"但是如果可以用這種破壞憲法分立原則來處理這個事情那你本席也要要求要這樣來做啊全台灣全立法院草野政黨不能輸人不輸丁啊那我看你交通部你也不用做了啦你就免走你就黨內預算都按照特別條例直接去執行就好了嘛"},{"start":402.472,"end":425.146,"text":"所以要趕快過你要趕快討論會不會過這裡你要當然有程序嘛到底會不會破壞什麼環境到底對原住民保留地原住民的部落會議會不會通過這個本席不知道但是我覺得站在交通部立場你要積極趕快的去溝通協調馬政府時代已經否決了這個案子蔡政府時代重啟對花東人的照顧"},{"start":426.465,"end":427.285,"text":"謝謝蔡其昌副委員"}]}},{"id":"150339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bca7c0f5f49d5345e0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6e5caf0930cab58e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:37:21 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10:45:55","影片長度":"00:12:32","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":752,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:45:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:33:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，就剛剛幾位委員在關心的我們的工安事件，我一開始想要問，其實在我們職安署成立到現在，從2014年到現在也十年了，我看到整個工安事件是沒有減反而升啦！當然很多委員都非常的關心，那我想請教未來我們職安署針對工安要怎麼去落實？我一直覺得你們訂了很多的法規或者是訂了很多指引，到底到現場誰要去落實或者是誰要去監督，去把整個安全落實？","另外，有關粉塵爆炸的這個問題，因為相對如果這個工廠裡面有一定規模的員工，如果是它是製作有關可能會有一些粉塵的，這個應該會有職業安全人員嘛！對不對？好，有這樣的職業安全的人員，為什麼還是會有這麼多，譬如明揚，明揚它應該本身也有這樣的職安人員在裡面嘛！那像這樣的話，到底是他沒有落實，或者是很多事情只是書面作業，然後敷衍了事，勞動部針對這部分，在未來的十年，你們要怎麼讓職安的工安事件數目下降？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我覺得很重要的就是安全文化的建立，安全文化的建立是很重要的，不然的話，這些事件一定是層出不窮，跟委員報告，其實這十年來，我們的減災是有發生效果，因為職災給付千人率是有下降，從三點多下降到現在二點多，但因為事件還是每年都有發生，所以大家對職安最後的成果還是不滿意，但我覺得這個部分都要各方的配合，包括最重要的企業主，你自己一定要落實自主的管理……"],["黃委員秀芳：誰要去監督企業一定要把它落實？"],["許部長銘春：政府就是透過宣導、輔導、監督、檢查，幫它檢視你有沒有落實。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以地方政府要去監督？"],["許部長銘春：對，地方政府，我們中央也有可以一起來協助的地方。另外就是像勞工端，因為很多勞工他自己的一些防護措施或安全觀念也不夠，比如說，他就是圖方便，也想說之前都沒事啊！但不怕一萬、只怕萬一，如果能讓他的安全文化一定深入到他的工作，讓他的行為能夠落實，這個也很重要。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，想請教的是，我最近這幾天也碰到很多這樣的狀況，因為天氣熱了，所以很多人要裝冷氣，有的可能是冷氣工或是水電行自己本身去裝冷氣，但可能就從三、四樓掉下來，然後人就掛掉了，像這樣子的情況，就是電器行它自己本身去裝冷氣，對此，那你們有什麼樣的指引，或者是要求他們一定要有一些什麼吊掛的安全措施嗎？要不然其實我都碰到好幾位，因為最近天氣熱，都在裝冷氣，可能以為那個屋頂是安全的，結果踩下去就破了，然後就掉下來，像這樣子的話，若是有一定規模的工廠，當然一定會有一些職安人員，但像這樣一個小型的電器行，你們怎麼樣去落實？"],["許部長銘春：對於這些工作業者，對於無固定雇主的部分，對於這些個人施作者，我們可能要加強他的相關安全防護等知識。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們會請工會這邊，讓他們有一些職安的講習。"],["許部長銘春：是！是！是！"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，對不起，我還是要跟各位報告，冷氣業的部分在過去這三、五年，其實各地方檢查機構就非常重視，因為它就是不大，是小型的安裝公司，可能就是一個人、兩個人到現場安裝，所以我們採取策略是冷氣通路的部分，比如說大的冷氣販賣商，它要發包給下面的承商去做現場安裝的時候，要做現場安全設置、設備的回照，就是回照給通路商，知道它是做一個比較好的安全保護。現在比較大的困難點是，很多小型的冷氣行是自己招生意，自己派一個臨時工去做安裝，這部分我會透過剛才委員提示的，從我們的冷氣工會，還有我們的同業公會來著手，希望不要讓小型冷氣商派出的第一線工作者，完全沒有被照顧到，這是我覺得一個比較大的弱點在這邊。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，其實我現在碰到的兩件就是這樣子，就是電器行他們自己本身去安裝，然後就這樣掉下來。"],["許部長銘春：這部分我們可以請職業工會來幫忙。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望透過職業工會來做一些講習，或者是他們在開會員大會的時候，你們也可以去參與啊！"],["許部長銘春：可以，這個沒有問題。謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來我想請教部長，我們看到最近股市上兩萬點，也看到臺灣的經濟奇蹟，可是很多的勞工仍覺得無感，就是整個臺灣股市上兩萬點，但聽到的是薪資也沒有漲，然後萬物齊漲。我想請教部長，央行有一個報告分析指出，臺灣累積的經濟成率是高於南韓，高於美國，高於日本，工時實質薪資累積成長率也高於美國跟日本，即我們是高於美國跟日本，可是低於韓國。","我們看到的是，臺灣的勞動份額下降，就是受僱人員的報酬，占GDP的比重是下降的，所以民眾沒辦法感受到經濟成長的果實，針對這樣一個狀況，因為我們整個經濟成長，相信很多企業可能會把成長的果實分給它的股東，是不是也要請勞動部，也要讓企業把成長的果實分給所有的員工，讓他們一起共享這個經濟成長的果實？我想請教部長，我們看到臺灣的基本工資時薪累積調幅有百分之五十九以上，當然很多人會覺得，小英總統上來之後，每一年幾乎都有調基本薪資，但還是覺得追不上其他的通膨，想請教部長，像這樣一個狀況，我們希望臺灣經濟成長的果實是跟所有員工一起共享的，那你們怎麼樣讓員工的薪資，實質上也可以得到一個加薪呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們也一再的跟這些企業主、事業單位呼籲，經濟果實要跟勞工來共享，因為企業能夠賺錢、能夠永續，其實都是勞工的努力，這是不可以忽視的，當然我們這幾年其實有透過基本工資的調升來處理，基本工資其實是在照顧最邊際、基層、弱勢的勞工，但是也經由政府調整基本工資，讓企業也能夠來學習，我們這是有帶動的效果。","不過這幾年在調幅上，臺灣是這樣子的，我們就是比較穩健，包括消費者物價指數，其實我們都會來斟酌，的確，南韓看起來是比我們調得高，但記得我剛上任那一年，他們就調得非常非常高，可是也因為這樣它的經濟受到影響，所以我們臺灣基本工資在調整時，都會兼顧考量，像CPI一定是我們要考量的，但是GDP，特別是這幾年，包括前幾年因為疫情，其實委員也知道，在疫情當中，有些產業它的製造是沒有受影響，但是有些內需產業是很慘的，我們很多弱勢勞工，其實大部分都是在服務業比較多，所以也必兼顧這些產業，因此，我們的調整都是比較穩健的，沒有什麼暴起暴落，就是比較穩健，但是我們都是持一個態度，縱使有疫情我還是要調整，就是政府支持調薪的一個態度，藉由政府調薪帶動，也呼籲這些企業主能夠善待員工，然後利潤能夠分享，經濟果實能夠分享。"],["黃委員秀芳：每個勞工都是家庭的重要支柱，就如我剛剛講的，有關工安或者是現在我們也希望國家的經濟成長，也能夠讓所有的勞工可以分享到經濟成長的果實，而不是讓勞工覺得是無感的。","最後，我想請教部長，因為我最近聽到很多的餐飲業都收起來了，因為他們請不到廚師，勞動部應該也有聽到這樣一個狀況，怎麼樣讓我們的餐飲業能夠正常營運下去呢？因為上個禮拜六、日我在餐廳跑行程的時候，我就聽到了兩家餐廳說，他們根本找不到廚師，所以勞動部針對這一部分，一方面可能要從教育或者是讓一些有心想要從事餐飲業的人，也可以進入這樣一個職場，我不知道部長有沒有聽到這樣一個聲音？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實像這些從事餐飲的，尤其是廚師，他都要有證照。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["許部長銘春：其實我們勞動部針對這個部分，都有職業訓練，各職業工會也都有開班，我們其實都有委辦，所以第一個就是從人才端，如果有人願意從事餐飲、廚師工作，其實可以進入訓練班，之後取得證照就可以去工作。因為現在餐飲缺工很嚴重……"],["黃委員秀芳：非常嚴重……"],["許部長銘春：非常嚴重，所以可能有些磁吸效應。可能比較大的餐飲集團薪資好、福利好、勞動環境各方面……"],["黃委員秀芳：要怎麼解決？現在既然已經碰到問題要怎麼解決？"],["許部長銘春：疫後改善缺工有把這些納進來，如果有個案，其實委員也可以給我們，我會請各地分署去瞭解，做一些協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們當然希望想要工作的勞工都能有好工作，而當中有很多需要勞動部協助。我們希望讓勞工有一個好的工作環境，這也是勞動部要去營造的，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言，部長請回座。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.113468750000003,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.64221875,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.48096875,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.93034375,"end"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,{"start":234.671,"end":263.184,"text":"最近天氣熱再裝冷氣就從上面可能就那個以為那個那個呃那個屋頂是安全的結果是破就是踩下去就破了然後就掉下來那像這樣子的話我不知道說如果說針對有一定規模的工廠那當然一定會有一些職安人員嗎那像這樣的一個小型的這個電器行我講的那種小型的那你們怎麼樣去落實作業者啦吼都無一定雇主的這部分"},{"start":263.844,"end":271.591,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":285.822,"end":306.697,"text":"委員對不起我還是跟主要報告冷氣業的部份其實這三五年其實各地方講究都非常重視因為他最後不會當到是小型的安裝公司現場安裝一個人兩個人所以我們採取策略是冷氣通路比如說大的冷氣販賣商他發包給下面的承擔去做現場安裝的時候要做現場的安全的"},{"start":307.317,"end":317.559,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":334.822,"end":362.329,"text":"就是這樣子就是這個電器行他們自己本身安裝然後就就這樣掉下來我們可以請職業工會來幫忙所以我希望就是說透過職業工會的可能做一些講習或者是他們在開會員大會的時候你們也可以去參與啊好不好好那接下來我想請教部長我們看到最近股市上兩萬點那也看到台灣的這個經濟奇蹟可是很多的勞工會覺得說無感"},{"start":364.429,"end":391.43,"text":"就是說整個臺灣這個股市上兩萬點可是這個聽到是說薪資也沒有漲然後萬物齊漲我想請教這個部長就是說在央行有一個報告分析有指出說臺灣累積的經濟成長率是高於南韓高於美國高於日本那這個公使實質的薪資累積成長率也高於美國跟日本可是我們這個"},{"start":393.431,"end":414.816,"text":"是低於高於美國跟日本可是是低於這個韓國那我們看到就是說台灣的勞動份額下降就是受僱人員的這個報酬佔GDP的比重是下降所以民眾沒辦法感受到這個經濟成長的果實那我想請教就是說會有這樣子的一個狀況就我們想"},{"start":417.597,"end":431.866,"text":"請勞動部這邊是針對既然我們的這個整個經濟成長那我相信很多企業他可能把這個成長的果實分給他的股東那是不是也要請勞動部也要把這個成長的果實"},{"start":432.987,"end":458.466,"text":"分給所有的員工讓他們一起共享經濟成長的果實我想請教部長我們看到臺灣的基本工資時薪累積條幅有59%以上當然很多人會覺得說小英總統上來之後每一年幾乎都有調基本薪資還是覺得追不上"},{"start":460.427,"end":481.303,"text":"其他的這個通膨我想請教就是說部長像這樣的一個狀況我們希望台灣的這個經濟成長的果實是跟所有的這個員工一起共享的那你們怎麼樣讓讓這個員工的這個薪資是實質上也可以得到一個這個加薪"},{"start":482.706,"end":497.348,"text":"報告委員其實我們也就是一再的跟這些企業組、事業單位在呼籲經濟果實要跟勞工來共享因為企業能夠賺錢能夠永續其實都是勞工的努力是不可以忽視的"},{"start":498.809,"end":512.095,"text":"當然我們這幾年其實透過基本工資的調升來也基本工資其實照顧最邊際低層弱勢的勞工但是也由政府的一個調整基本工資能夠讓企業也能夠來學習我們這邊帶動的效果不過因為這幾年我們其實在調服方面"},{"start":521.419,"end":537.793,"text":"臺灣是這樣的,我們是比較穩健,包括消費者物價指數,其實我們都是會斟酌南韓沒有錯,南韓看起來他是比我們調得高,但是他其實我記得我剛上任那一年他們調得非常非常高,可是也因為這樣經濟受影響"},{"start":539.694,"end":554.014,"text":"所以臺灣我們在基本工資在調整我們都會兼顧CPI這個是一定我們要考量的但是GDP特別是這幾年前幾年因為疫情其實你也知道疫情當中有些產業他是"},{"start":555.696,"end":570.047,"text":"經濟是它的製造是沒有受影響但是有些我們有些內需產業是很慘的那很多我們的這些弱勢勞工他其實大部分都是在服務業比較多那也說你也必須兼顧這些產業啦所以我們的調整都是"},{"start":570.627,"end":574.092,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":586.267,"end":611.1,"text":"這些企業主能夠善待員工、利潤能夠分享、經濟果實能夠分享那我們當然就是說每個勞工都是家庭的重要支柱就我剛剛講的這個有關公安或者是現在我們也希望說國家的這個經濟成長也能夠讓所有的勞工可以分享到這個經濟成長的果實而不是讓勞工覺得說是無感"},{"start":611.8,"end":622.063,"text":"另外最後我想請教部長因為我最近聽到很多的餐飲業很多都收起來因為他們請不到廚師我不知道說勞動部應該也會聽到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":631.118,"end":655.403,"text":"那怎麼樣去讓我們這個餐飲業能夠這個正常的營運下去因為我昨天6日的時候我在餐廳在跑行程的時候我就聽到了兩家餐廳他說他根本找不到廚師啦那我覺得說勞動部針對這一部分一方面應該也要讓可能是不是要從"},{"start":657.483,"end":679.694,"text":"教育或者是讓一些想有心想要從事這個餐飲業的人也可以進入到這樣的一個職場那我不知道說部長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個聲音報告委員其實像這些從事餐飲尤其廚師他都要有證照對其實我們勞動部針對這個部分我們都有這個訓練有職業訓練各職業公務也都有開班是我們都其實都有委辦所以其實"},{"start":686.798,"end":706.133,"text":"第一個從人才端這裡如果這些有人願意他從事這個餐飲的廚師的工作其實他可以進到訓練班來然後取得證照他就可以去工作但是現在因為可能現在因為餐飲真的缺工是很嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重所以可能"},{"start":706.994,"end":728.596,"text":"有一些磁吸效應,如果比較大的參與集團他可能薪資好、福利好、勞動環境各方面那怎麼樣去解決?現在是碰到這個問題要怎麼解決?我們醫後改善缺工有針對把這些納進來像若有個案,其實委員也可以給我們我會請我們的各地的分署"},{"start":729.376,"end":733.438,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"}]}},{"id":"150337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b74d072eb35bb54358506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6c299908bd24946c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:31:04 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10:43:06","影片長度":"00:12:02","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":722,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:43:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:31:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":568,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時31分）好，謝謝。我先請我們的朱主計長。"],["主席：朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長好。這兩天大家最熱議的話題就是電價上漲，尤其是經濟部公布工業用電、民生用電的電價漲幅之後，現在百業喊漲，大家都說可能受不了。主計長，你認為在電價調漲之後，會不會有民生消費物價上漲的情形？"],["朱主計長澤民：根據經濟部的預估，電價上漲對CPI的直接影響大概是0.07%，間接影響會有0.17%，但是它的間接影響是假定全部都轉嫁上去考量，不見得會……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以電價上漲確實會造成物價上漲的壓力，否則中央銀行也不會違背整個國際趨勢，沒有降息，反而升息。"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們的實質利率是負的，所以央行有……"],["王委員鴻薇：實質利率為什麼會是負的，就是物價上漲過高，對不對？我們來看，這兩天大家都非常擔心電價上漲，結果經濟部王美花部長喊話，警告業者不能以漲電價為由漲物價。主計長，你覺得這句話適當嗎？可能嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有聽到他講的，但是我認為他應該有一個前提，就是超過成本漲價也許是不恰當的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你覺得如果業者反映電價上漲的成本，難免會漲物價，只是不應該用哄抬的方式，或者是找藉口隨便漲物價，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，委員說得非常對，他的原意應該是這樣子。謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：王部長當然很擔心會造成物價連動，可是恐嚇業者沒有辦法解決未來會漲價的狀況，而且你說不能漲價，我們現在也說不要漲電價、不能漲電價，請問一下，經濟部聽嗎？行政院也不聽。","另外，主計長，我再跟您請教我們最近非常關心的，電價上漲之後，對於大眾運輸業者……尤其像我們在臺北，捷運族非常多，比如臺北捷運、臺中捷運、桃捷，還有高雄捷運、臺鐵、高鐵，都因此而使它的營運成本大幅升高，所以現在地方比如說臺北市就希望能夠針對大眾運輸凍漲，因為大家希望票價不要上漲，可是業者也沒有辦法，無限度的一直一而再、再而三的提高營運成本。主計長同不同意，現在地方政府比如說臺北市政府提出，對大眾運輸應該採取凍漲的措施？"],["朱主計長澤民：北捷是由臺北市政府主管，臺鐵已經公司化，我們尊重他們的意見，中央不會干涉應該怎麼樣。但是我們對TPASS，北捷補助了33億，臺鐵也補助了13億，請他們列入考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以應該要給予補助？"],["朱主計長澤民：現行就有補助了。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是補助不夠啊！你現在補助，去年多了3.6億，今年要超過5億，每年電價越漲越高，現在補助完全不夠，所以如果他提出來不要補助了，你就凍漲，可不可以？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為我剛才講過，我們不能干涉他漲不漲價，但是據我瞭解，電價上漲大概是占他們成本的大概1%。"],["王委員鴻薇：不止啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：差不多。"],["王委員鴻薇：百分之十幾，所以待會我到交通委員會，我也會幫臺北市捷運來請命。時間暫停，主計長請回，我找金管會主委。"],["主席：金管會黃主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：NCC翁副主委。"],["主席：翁副主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：數發部。"],["主席：數發部李政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委、次長還有副主委早。今天的報告都說我們的行動綱領1.0版自執行以來初見成效，成效在哪裡？成效其實是可以數字化的，我們來看一下，雖然我們成立了國家打詐隊，但是我們可以看到這7年來詐騙案或詐騙的金額都是連年的升高，一直在創紀錄，所以一方面你們說初見打詐成效，但是打詐成效回饋給你的卻是詐騙案無論案件數跟金額都在創新高，尤其在整個打詐過程中，我們的檢察官曾經召開過類似公聽會的會議，一線的檢察官曾經針對詐騙，提到有三大戰犯，包括金管會，他們說人頭戶欠缺管理，然後NCC對於電信的境外門號管理不佳，數位部對第三方支付也欠缺管理，第一線檢察官用具名的方式直接點名三大戰犯。你們今天的報告有針對這些提出一些你們所執行跟落實的相關政策，我想請問金管會、NCC和數發部，第一季馬上就要結束了，因為現在已經3月了，你們能不能保證在今年第一季，詐騙案件也好，詐騙金額也好，可以看到顯著的下降？你們有沒有這樣的信心可以保證？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想基層檢察官的指教，我們虛心受教，我們也不斷在改進，第一季最重要的就是灰名單，還有告誡戶的上線。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我知道你們上線了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我認為應該會有效果，但是我想我不太適合去代表打詐平臺表示意見。"],["王委員鴻薇：至少你們在人頭戶的部分，我看到你們做了一些事情。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。我們就針對國際來話的攔阻跟警示有成效，因為詐騙集團的手法不斷演變。"],["王委員鴻薇：擔心！我待會就要告訴你，新手法又出來了。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對，所以我們會結合電信公司在這邊持續精進，有關於國際漫遊的黑莓卡，我們上個禮拜有跟電信公司達成協議，技術上可以去驗證，我想接下來會推出一系列的方法。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以黑莓卡可以驗證？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：可以，委員問到重點了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，數發部來。"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，之前劍青改講第三方支付管理的部分，現在第三方管理支付的措施就是跟劍青改還有檢方一起討論出來的管理措施，所以第三方支付的管理，應該很明顯的有下降。另外，遊戲點數跟電商的部分，在報告上也明顯的有下降。"],["王委員鴻薇：我看到你們在遊戲點數要做管理，對不對？"],["李次長懷仁：也明顯的下降，已經降到80件左右。"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望不要等到過一、兩個月再去檢視的時候，發現第一季根本沒有下降的跡象，這點非常重要，而且我們不應該只追在這些詐騙集團的後面補破網而已。","好，我在這邊也特別提出來，這些詐騙集團手法推陳出新，我給幾位看一下，現在在網路上出現一些廣告，告訴你要怎麼樣來防詐，教你怎麼樣去補救，把騙的錢騙回來，說：「你被網路詐騙過了嗎？揭露他們是我們的專長，我們幫你追回來。」結果這些全部都是詐騙集團做的。所以真的是防不勝防啊！我們過去看到很多的態樣。時間暫停一下，法務部今天有來嗎？法務部是誰？"],["主席：法務部黃謀信常次。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，必須要講，這些詐騙集團食髓知味，惡劣的地方在於他們還在騙被騙過的人，就是很多人已經都被他們騙過了，結果他們還要一騙再騙，所以像這樣的方式、這樣的手法一定要嚴辦，可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，這個沒問題，這是檢察官的天職。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我希望以後我們不會再看到這種「明明你已經是騙過人了，還要一騙再騙」。另外就是他們談到怎麼樣追回被騙的錢，我也要特別提出，因為在全世界確實都有感於國際詐騙真的越來越多，所以追回部分或全部的損失也變成很重要，除了防堵之外，在被騙之後要追回，以世界各國來說，這個比例，就跟我們鄰近幾個國家相比，臺灣是最低的，所以我想請法務部去研究一下，因為這個是世界防詐組織所做的一個統計，我希望法務部去研究一下，為什麼日本可以追回將近三成，當然也沒有到三成，但是我們臺灣最低，才13.9%，是不是在法令上或者在行政相關措施上有所不足？我們應該把它補強，至少可以追回一部分損失的金額，減少受害人的損失，可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上我們現行法上的確就有相關犯罪所得追還的機制，也許不足，但是我們會在打詐專法裡面去設計相關條文，看怎麼樣制度上設計，讓犯罪贓款的返還更容易，我們把相關的法律工具具備。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我現在會給你們一些時間，我覺得至少在跟世界各國比較的時候，除了要防詐、打詐，其實被騙的人最希望的是能把錢多拿回來一些，這個是最重要的，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。","等一下王世堅委員質詢完畢休息，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","林思銘","王美惠","陳冠廷","黃健豪","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員\n會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成\n效進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.26721875,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.952843750000003,"end":31.620968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.58596875,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.84846875,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.51284375,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.35721875,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.67346875000001,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.26784375000001,"end":105.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.36471875000001,"end":108.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.23346875,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.79971875,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.89159375,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.65034375000002,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.07096875000002,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.20159375,"end":213.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.39846875,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.36846875,"end":244.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.54534375000003,"end":247.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.73284375000003,"end":275.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.66721875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.71346875,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":291.95159375000003,"end":292.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.49159375,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.80784375,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.56284375,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":295.57971875000004,"end":296.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.61346875000004,"end":296.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":297.04784375,"end":297.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":297.75659375000004,"end":298.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.56659375000004,"end":298.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":301.11471875,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.27909375,"end":302.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.00034375,"end":308.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.58596875,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.49096875000004,"end":326.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.61284375,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.39409375,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.79471875,"end":354.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.57471875000005,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.46846875,"end":360.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.12221875,"end":361.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.26971875000004,"end":369.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.39096875,"end":371.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.66471875,"end":376.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.88346875,"end":382.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.84034375000005,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.22596875000005,"end":423.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":425.29784375,"end":444.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.54096875000005,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.53534375000004,"end":451.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.18409375000005,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.44409375000004,"end":464.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":463.99221875,"end":479.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.99409375000005,"end":480.54659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":480.78284375000004,"end":483.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.02721875000003,"end":483.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":483.22971875,"end":483.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.76971875000004,"end":487.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.83659375,"end":495.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.9028437500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這難免會有漲物價只是說不應該是用烘台的方式 或者是找一個藉口就隨便漲物價 對不對對 林委員說得非常對 他應該原意是這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":140.72,"end":165.314,"text":"所以我覺得王部長他當然很擔心說這個會造成物價的連動可是恐嚇業者沒有辦法解決未來會漲價的一個狀況而且你說不能漲價那我們現在也說不要漲電價啊不能漲電價那請問一下經濟部聽嗎?行政院也不聽啊另外主計長我再跟您請教我們最近非常關心的就是上漲電價之後呢對於大眾運輸業者"},{"start":169.156,"end":188.22,"text":"尤其像我們在台北我們的捷運出非常非常多比如說我們台北捷運、台中捷運、桃捷還有高雄捷運、台鐵、高鐵事實上都因此而使它的營運成本大幅的升高所以現在地方比如說以台北市就希望能夠針對大眾運輸能夠動漲"},{"start":191.681,"end":192.602,"text":"北捷島他是那個"},{"start":216.924,"end":217.724,"text":"所以應該要給予補助"},{"start":246.218,"end":273.757,"text":"現行就有補助了他補助不夠啊你現在補助現在他去年多了3.6億吧今年要超過5億因為每年電價越漲越高那你現在補助完全不夠所以他提出來你也不要給我補助了你就動漲可不可以跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才講過他們我們不能干涉他說他漲不漲價但是據我了解到他們的電價上漲的話大概是佔他們成本大概1%"},{"start":275.718,"end":298.844,"text":"不只啦,百分之十三、百分之十幾所以基本上這個待會我到交通委員會我也會幫臺北市捷運來請命好,時間暫停,我想主計長可以請回我找金管會主委、NCC、翁副主委、數發部李政次委員長"},{"start":309.627,"end":325.383,"text":"我們今天的報告都說我們的行動綱領1.0版自執行以來初見成效成效在哪裡?成效其實是可以用數字化的我們來看一下雖然我們成立了國家打詐隊"},{"start":326.664,"end":348.634,"text":"但是呢可以看到這7年來詐騙案也好或詐騙的金額也好是連年的在升高一直在創紀錄所以一方面我們說我們有出件打詐成效但是打詐成效回饋給你的缺失打騙案也好案件數跟金額都在創新高"},{"start":349.514,"end":371.183,"text":"尤其事實上在我們整個的打架過程裡面我們的檢察官他們曾經召開過這個類似公聽會那麼在我們一線的檢察官曾經針對詐騙提到有三大戰犯三大戰犯呢就是"},{"start":372.691,"end":397.603,"text":"包括我們經管會他說人頭戶欠缺管理然後NCC對於電信的境外門號管理不佳然後數位部對第三方支付也是欠缺管理所以在第一線檢察官他們用具名的方式直接點名三大戰犯但我也看到你們今天的報告有針對這些你們提出一些你們所這個"},{"start":399.664,"end":423.351,"text":"執行跟落實的相關的政策所以我想請問主委我想請問NCC和訴發部你們能不能保證你們能不能保證第一季馬上就要結束了因為現在已經3月了在今年第一季我們的詐騙案也好詐騙金額也好可以看到顯著的下降你們有沒有這樣的信心可以保證"},{"start":425.305,"end":443.777,"text":"我想基層檢察官的指教我們虛心受教那我們也不斷在改進那第一季最重要的就是揮名單還有那個告誡戶的上線對我知道你們上線了我認為應該會有效果但是我想我不太適合去代表打詐平台去表示意見"},{"start":444.748,"end":467.59,"text":"至少你們人頭戶的部分我看到你們做了一些事情來來我時間有限來我們現在是委員好那個我們就針對國際贏得來的話這邊的話有攔阻跟警示這個有成效那我們因為這個詐騙集團他的手法不斷的演變我待會就要告訴你新手法又出來了所以說我們會結合電信公司啊"},{"start":468.03,"end":486.367,"text":"在這一邊持續精進有關於國際漫遊的黑美卡我們上個禮拜有跟電信公司已經達成上技術上面可以去驗證我想接下來會推出一系列的方法所以黑美卡可以驗證可以委員問到重點是好那這個部分來NCC那個書房"},{"start":488.024,"end":489.465,"text":"我看到你們在遊戲點數要做管理,對不對?"},{"start":511.3,"end":539.8,"text":"我希望不要等到我們過一兩個月之後再來去檢視的時候發現我們第一季根本沒有下降的跡象這點非常重要而且我們不應該追在這些詐騙集團的後面在那邊捕破網而已我在這邊也特別提出來這些詐騙集團手法推陳出新我給幾位看一下現在在網路上出現的一些就是告訴你你要怎麼樣"},{"start":541.361,"end":563.693,"text":"來防詐,然後教你怎麼樣去補救,把騙的錢騙回來,說你被網路詐騙過了嗎?揭露他們是我們的專長啊,我們幫你追回來啊。結果這些全部都是詐騙集團。所以真的是防不勝防啊,我們過去看到很多的太陽。所以我在這邊齁,來時間暫停一下,法務部今天有來嗎?來,法務部是誰啊?來,市長。"},{"start":573.203,"end":594.913,"text":"所以次長必須要講這些詐騙集團實隨之謂這個惡劣是在哪就是你還在騙被騙過的人就是很多人就是你已經經過人都被騙過了你還要再騙一騙再騙所以像這樣的方式這樣的手法一定要嚴辦可不可以"},{"start":595.873,"end":624.079,"text":"報告委員,這個沒問題,這檢察官的天職好,我希望以後我們再看到的沒有這種明明你已經是騙過人還要再一騙再騙另外一部分就是他們談到就是說你怎麼樣追回你被騙的這些錢那我也要特別提出因為在全世界確實都有感於這個國際詐騙真的是越來越多所以呢追回部分或者全部的損失也變成很重要的除了防堵之外在"},{"start":624.739,"end":642.813,"text":"拜遍之後你要追回如果你看世界各國來說這個比例啊就是跟我們鄰近這幾個國家台灣是最低的台灣是最低的所以我想請法務部去研究一下因為這個是世界防詐組織他們所做的這樣的一個"},{"start":646.016,"end":668.708,"text":"我希望法務部去研究一下為什麼日本可以追回將近三成他當然也沒有到三成啦但是我們台灣最低13.9%所以是不是在法令上或者是在我們這些行政相關的就是這些措施上有沒有有所不足然後我們去把它補強"},{"start":670.049,"end":688.739,"text":"至少我們可以去追回一部分損失的金額減少我們這些受害人的損失可不可以?公文報告那事實上我們憲情法上的確就有相關犯罪所得追還的機制的但是也許不足那我們在打詐專法打詐專法裡面我們會去設計相關條文看怎麼制度上設計這樣"},{"start":690.1,"end":690.12,"text":"謝謝,請回"},{"start":719.468,"end":719.951,"text":"下一位質詢請黃珊珊"}]}},{"id":"150336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b519a4200babeae750ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a620552088245ce1945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:27:09 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10:37:15","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:37:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:27:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時27分）主席好，我想請一下龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：鄭委員早安。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。我想請教一下，按照國發基金112年第3季季報出來的資料，國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在直接投資的部分大概有七十家左右，過去的應該大概有一百多家。"],["鄭委員正鈐：七十家，正確答案，沒問題。目前虧損的總共有幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：虧損的應該有四十幾家，是不是？"],["鄭委員正鈐：幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：四十幾家吧，還是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，超過一半以上嘛。所以我這邊特別講一個點，從106年一直到現在，審計部從100年到去年為止，每年提出來的決算報告裡面，審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險，也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理，更沒有落實檢討公司經營困境及研提具體改善措施，每年都提，十幾年來都這樣提，國發會顯然把審計部的報告當作耳邊風，也沒有真的去改，還是你們有具體改善什麼樣的部分嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：一個公司是有一個生命週期的，剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的，所以我們會作分類……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，沒有問題，來、來。112年1月的時候，監察院對國發基金投資東貝跟如興兩家公司直接提出了糾正案，裡面提到了很多、很多的問題，包括第一個，政策評估會議不公開透明，沒有留存錄音發言紀錄；第二個，國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程；第三個，決策軌跡及可課責的內控機制付諸闕如；第四個，盡職調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行；第五個，忽視外聘專家學者警示意見，這是監察院所提出來的一個報告。主委，對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的？國發會有沒有改了什麼地方？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們的機制是這樣，我們有一個投資評估審議會，這個審議會是匿名投票，所以由委員來決定，那所有剛剛講的這一些專家學者的意見，或是我們做DD的部分，全部這些委員他都會看過，看過以後……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是他是匿名投票，他是不公開的嘛！對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以基本上都不公開，我另外從審計部這邊提出來的一個決算報告裡面，它特別提到了一個兆遠的投資項目，主委知道這個案子嗎？兆遠投資。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們是不是碰到詐騙集團了？你覺得。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為每一個投資它當然就會講說它有什麼規劃……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們是碰到詐騙集團了嘛！我為什麼這樣講一定是有原因的，拜託，我們來看整個的程序，108年1月31號開始評估這個部分，到4月份的時候，投資評估審議會通過要投資2億496元，投資進去了之後，馬上兆遠就減資，你投資進去馬上就減資，而且本來答應要給國發基金一席董事還有一席獨董，結果都沒有給喔！然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了，然後減資還不是只有一次，減資完之後，一年多它給你董事，這個過程當中我們的股權投資狀態的時候，完全是一個沒有去管理的情況，然後我們裡面也沒有能力去管理，因為當時投資裡面的協議就沒有規範到這個部分，然後我們又再一次碰到第二次的減資，主委你知道這狀態嗎？所以我說國發基金在投兆遠的時候是不是碰到了一個詐騙集團，你投進去之後，董事都還沒有派任，它就把你減資減掉了，主委要不要說明一下？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為當時我沒有在會裡面，但是我看後面的一些資料，的確我們是有派董事進去，的確後來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：派董事進去，但是減資以後才讓你派進去啊！主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，它的確是先減資，然後我們派進去。"],["鄭委員正鈐：減資，不讓你們進去，然後再減資一次啊！所以這個部分，為什麼特別一開始講從整個東貝、如興，一下子到兆遠這邊的時候，你剛剛一開始就提到了，我們在投資評估審議委員會，它是不透明的、不公開的，所以到底是怎麼樣，當時為什麼投兆遠？是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投，它有真的真正經過一個專業的評估嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當然，所有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分請主委事後給我一個很清楚的報告，因為這十多年來的時候，國發會對於審計部提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風，對於整個裡面的評估的嚴謹度來說的時候，完全也都沒有再去落實。我再往下再問一個問題……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們七十幾個案子都是這樣啦！沒有偏頗或是說特別針對哪個案子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以七十幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態，所以到底是怎麼樣去投資……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是不公開……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們也都沒有一個公開的方式……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是有一個投資審議會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以大家都無從檢驗啊！是不是？國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投，超過一半以上的重大新興投資案都虧損耶！主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，他是外聘的委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：超過一半都虧損耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，它那個是還沒有開始賺錢，我是講有些是early stage，你不能要求它成立公司成立……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，那我們再下來看，那是直接投資的部分，我接下來看一下，我們投資創投的部分，投資創投的部分累積到111年底的時候有293億8,000，將近300億的狀態，我們投報率只有3.01%，平均的年報酬率只有3.01%，投這麼多的錢，報酬率這麼低，這不是我們直接投資，直接投資你有些政策上的需求，本席都可以認同，國發會嘛！你有政策的需求去投資特定的產業，我們認同，可是你現在投的是創投的部分，這樣的成績你滿意嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，投資創投目的也是擴大臺灣的投資量能，並不是為了獲益著想……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解政策的需求，可是你不能用政策的需求對所有的投資表現都沒有去理解，而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊！十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告，審計部每年都講同樣的事情，國發會也是每年都當作耳邊風，也都沒有去改，這個部分的時候，我們在投創投的時候，尤其有國內、國外的部分，國外的部分的時候，虧損到很嚴重，到虧損25%，最嚴重的，你知道這家公司嗎？Acorn Pacific Ventures Fund，你知道這家公司嗎？國外投資虧損到25%，最後倒數第二家，投資虧損25.19%，我們投資海外創投不是希望能夠引進新的技術對不對？你海外創投當中，你投資有一個部分就是要引進新的技術嘛！過去以來的時候，只有一家創投大和引進了兩個技術，其他都沒有任何的技轉，所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候，我們如果沒有好的技術引進來的時候，我們這樣投有必要嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了，所以透過其他的創投是有做這樣的要求。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在才開始要做這樣的要求？本席之後的時候，請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明。另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分，我看了一個數字，我也是覺得很匪夷所思，從民國95年到現在113年，18年來的時候，離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有，然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有，然後我們還是維持一個預算數，從一開始的17億到現在的2,000萬，我在想說我們國發會可能是不想做這個業務，如果是這樣的時候，如果是為了要保留科目，我們就把它減掉喔，剩10萬塊就好啦！我們提案減掉1,990萬啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，報告委員，案子我們都有送啊！就是累計貸放的數目都有，只是送到銀行，銀行發現這個案子不錯，它用它自己的基金借了，就沒有動到我們基金，它用它自己……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分，這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面，到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明，如果說只是為了要保留預算科目，我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好，不需要2,000萬。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們案子都可以提供給委員參考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好的。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言，我們在賴瑞隆委員發言之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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家路不過分一點都不過分可是這麼不過分的要求就我住在桃園我大概已經聽了30年以上慢慢慢慢一步一步一步一步的推動從蘇花高蘇花替蘇花改蘇花安到現在安了半天"},{"start":55.054,"end":84.323,"text":"我坦白講我不是花蓮台東的人民不安那就是一個島上大家來來去去經濟的活動對不對民生的活動我們在桃園可以講說是我們在花東很多人的第二故鄉一到年節重要是都要返鄉的那種那種急迫買火車票買不到那其實我們有很多的這個被拜託到的一個機會有時候弄得我們都很無奈"},{"start":85.083,"end":105.523,"text":"所以我自己的一個基本立場我認為花東快跟我們在花東這個部分一個交通我覺得台灣人民平權這種角度在交通平權我是希望能夠快點執行但我要去問一個問題其實你們現在提了很多包括維縣的事情"},{"start":106.653,"end":124.164,"text":"那個憲法70條裡面特別寫的哈就針對政府提的預算案我們不得增加這我知道我從中立市市民代表的時候我就知道那你現在你用那個下個會期再說嘛你提了一本預算案來我們在你提的數字上不得增加我們知道嘛"},{"start":124.904,"end":140.459,"text":"那現在像這種要求鼓勵那種要求你們未來要增加什麼東西那種太多了啊這以前什麼班班有冷氣趕快啊委員那邊寫啊每班都要冷氣要不要花錢這臨時提案有些人都要花錢啊"},{"start":142.196,"end":160.351,"text":"我是覺得包括委員在總質詢的時候有時候提的都是叫行政院長要花錢那跟憲法規定你當時提個具體的預算案每一個上面有個數字我們能不能有權利立法委員在上面增加當然是不行所以我是建議"},{"start":162.435,"end":162.615,"text":"議員蔣介石"},{"start":183.066,"end":194.939,"text":"我們賴總統他是在花東兩位民進黨候選人上面都共提花東快速這個道路的時候他不都支持嘛賴總統支持啊"},{"start":197.191,"end":218.98,"text":"蕭副總統以前在花蓮立委的時候當時跟徐政委委員還有鄭天才委員等等的幾位委員還有劉兆豪委員2019年你也知道嘛重啟這個部分那蕭副總統他當時說了什麼時空背景不同了時空背景真的不同了應該要考量整體的一個"},{"start":220.06,"end":240.401,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":240.501,"end":264.744,"text":"他們我想這個副委員提的我覺得也不過分了他壓的日期是10年啦所以我倒過來問你你是不是10年做好都沒信心我想倒過來問你好了啦如果你有信心其實我在猜副委員可能也不見得會提啦反正就持續做嘛搞不好8年就做完了我幹嘛要弄10年呢所以到底在哪裡我最後想要說啦應該的"},{"start":266.426,"end":288.224,"text":"臺灣很小我們雖然住在不同的縣市可是大家都說各縣市都一樣真的不一樣每次到選舉的時候人多人少自然很多縣市的爭取資源的弱勢他的現象就出現了像偏鄉離島所以我是真的是希望能夠考量民生觀光大家來支持這樣的條例通過"},{"start":290.39,"end":303.897,"text":" 那這個問地方的問題喔 這個大竹郊遊大來 那個局長講一下好了 這個是誰的 大竹郊遊那個延伸案不是又弄到你公路總局 現在全部你高空局做嗎"},{"start":305.93,"end":322.443,"text":"他是延伸高架到31號現在之前你說可能會公路總局做跟委員報告齁那我們現在講是說桃園市政府他先做那個那個旁邊的那個地方道路的拓寬之後我們再接手做閘道所以是高速公路局你們施工發泡嗎還是公路總局"},{"start":329.346,"end":329.486,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":344.224,"end":347.606,"text":"我們現在必須要等到說他那個道路做完之後我們才能進場"},{"start":364.645,"end":379.901,"text":"所以是誰發包兩邊就是說桃園市政府做他的一個市區道路我們做我們的閘道我覺得你們有因為有交接的界面因為蠻可怕的我昨天在問的時候我就最後一句話你們現在針對於目前的細節"},{"start":381.323,"end":398.797,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":398.917,"end":409.72,"text":"不是不是我們那個大的一個規劃案都已經討論完了那目前我們在做基本設計了那設計完的時候會找他一起來審查好啦那最後啊因為我拜託交通的問題啊大家多溝通啦因為他講說預計113年底開工嘛你們說預計明年中開工啦是"},{"start":419.483,"end":419.503,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bea4901af937af1c0cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6458456231790284f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:17:29 - 10:26:47","影片長度":"00:09:18","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":558,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:26:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:17:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時17分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：王部長。"],["王部長國材：陳召委好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，早安。"],["王部長國材：早。"],["陳委員雪生：我們在朝為官都說要照顧離島、偏鄉，有沒有？"],["王部長國材：有。"],["陳委員雪生：尤其越窮的地方，我們更要注意。今天花蓮的民意代表提出花東建設條例，我覺得跟離島建設條例有點相似，當然這個條例是在離島建設條例之後。花東建設條例在我到立法院來，已經提了很久了。傅崐萁委員不要難過，什麼環評，我們環評通過很久都還在那邊玩，是不是？所以你也不要難過。不過請部長要注意一下，離島、偏鄉不要掛在嘴巴，好不好？請多給予支持，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：當然今天的預算案可能被說立法院、立法委員不得為增加預算的要求，只可以刪減，法律案裡面有夾雜一些東西。但很多都是這樣，很多法律案裡面都有提出一些經費的案件。部長，說真的，你幹得不錯，你在行政上都已經儘量保持中立，我也看到了。這一任閣揆也好，下一任閣揆也好，希望你能夠繼續連任，好不好？有沒有信心？"],["王部長國材：我覺得應該換一些新人，要換人比較好。"],["陳委員雪生：有信心嘛？"],["王部長國材：沒有，我是說應該換人比較有新的作為。"],["陳委員雪生：不錯啦！王國材，國家的材料，不然這個名字……好啦！請問部長，我這次選舉也很辛苦，雖然很辛苦，但還是選上了，很多候選人說馬祖到高雄航線，我們馬祖老百姓只有6,000個人，他可以連署7,000個人出來，蠻厲害的，然後又找了交通部。照這樣的話，高雄到馬祖的航線就可以飛了嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在我們跟連江縣政府合作，希望先用包機，飛到一個程度，我們再……"],["陳委員雪生：我先問你前面的，連署7,000人，或是連署7萬人，你被嚇到了，是不是？然後你就要趕快飛，民意那麼強大，就要飛了嘛，跟花東人一樣……"],["王部長國材：先包機，先包機。"],["陳委員雪生：全部都舉手，雙手雙腳贊成搞花東建設，你們還是不理他，所以他們連署7,000人找交通部，因為執政黨嘛，是不是？找你們，你們都要聽話啊！這樣就可以飛了嗎？"],["王部長國材：沒有，現在是航空公司……的確需求面我相信啦！需求面……"],["陳委員雪生：對啊！我說要去找航空公司談嘛！問題在航空公司，對不對？那你去找高雄市長、秘書長，找這些有用嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟立榮也談過，所以現在先用包機。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我上次已經提過了，在總質詢時提過了，希望民航局局長出面，好不好？今天何局長沒有來，你出面嘛！航政司主導一下。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：你出面邀請航空公司，這個源頭應該是縣政府、旅行社，還有航空公司，很重要的這三個單位，對不對？我們試飛一下，包機先試飛一下。"],["王部長國材：現在包機已經確定了，現在跟縣政府談一談，比如有多少旅客要搭，我們就先試……"],["陳委員雪生：這個沒關係，縣政府去評估嘛！"],["王部長國材：好，我們跟他一起合作。"],["陳委員雪生：開會的時候處理嘛！但是你們交通部要主導，你要主導這樣的會議，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，我請民航局來……"],["陳委員雪生：第二個問題，北竿機場改善，你看花東要幾百億，要到在那邊頭破血流，都快打架了，我們北竿機場改善，飛安很重要，你不要等出了事情再去改善，後悔都來不及，是不是？這個是千秋萬世的一個事情，所以我們那邊還在吵吵鬧鬧，不過還好啦，他們主要是覺得配套要做好，工期太長了，當然，我也希望這個案子趕快過，您瞭解現在的進度怎麼樣了？"],["王部長國材：我們已經把意見在3月1日給國發會了，他們應該是已經往上呈了，應該很快。"],["陳委員雪生：國發會的前兩個月也往上呈了，呈送到行政院你們就不管了嗎？"],["王部長國材：不會，不會，我們追蹤到的是國發會應該沒有意見，應該往上呈了，我覺得北竿應該很快。"],["陳委員雪生：鄭副院長都還沒有看到，不會到院長那裡啊！還在行政院秘書處打轉，還在轉啦！你們去問一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：可以問嗎？"],["王部長國材：我來幫委員打聽一下。"],["陳委員雪生：還是打電話去問的話，會不會官腔罵你一頓？"],["王部長國材：不會，不會。"],["陳委員雪生：他會不會問你管那麼多幹什麼？"],["王部長國材：不會。"],["陳委員雪生：不會吧？"],["王部長國材：不會。"],["陳委員雪生：那你問一下跟我回報，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：第三個，我老調重談了，停車問題。部長傳了一個LINE給我，很像是記點問題，這有很多民眾反彈，我請問你，前任柯文哲市長把所有可以停的停車位全部畫停車格，而沒有停車格的全部畫成紅線，那你要我們的車子停哪裡去？是不是就叫警察不停的開單？這是第一個，交通部路政司能不能要求改一些停車位出來？全國有800萬、900萬輛的車子，停車位只有200個、300個，大樓室內停車位100個，你叫剩下的車子停哪裡去？白天到辦公室來沒地方停，立法院周邊到處都是亂停的車子，晚上開回去也是亂停，沒地方停嘛！警察不要搞治安了，都來開單就好了！是不是？這是個問題。第二個問題，晚上回去可能併排，我是覺得路政司可以規劃一下，在不影響交通的情況之下，晚上10點鐘以後到凌晨8點鐘以前或7點鐘以前，不要開單嘛！你引起民怨啊！是不是？這跟哪一黨沒有關係，跟國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨這些黨派都沒有關係，這是便民、利民，不要引起民怨，這是大眾的需求，是不是？部長你答應一下，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：目前0到6點原則上是可以開放停車，的確，這次我們在道交條例……"],["陳委員雪生：0到6點？那你要這些人到外面去玩、夜遊，去淡水河邊看看要不要跳海，然後12點再開回來停車，是這樣子嗎？"],["王部長國材：目前0到6點地方政府可以權宜調整。跟召委報告，這次的修法也是一樣，尤其是停車的課題，剛才談到非常難停……"],["陳委員雪生：晚上10點車輛已經很少流動了。"],["王部長國材：所以我們這次會有一些稍微的調整。"],["陳委員雪生：這個要修法嗎？會不會送到交通委員會來討論，還是你們用行政命令？"],["王部長國材：這次一起討論，我想第一個是處罰條例，比如說民眾可不可以檢舉？我們現在是把它除外；第二個是裁罰細則的修正，就是在立法院討論，某些行為是不是……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，民眾檢舉的事情，你可以討論，如果要檢舉的話，晚上12點以後停車不罰，對不對？那我10點到12點沒事的話，就把車子開到林森北路、中山北路，用那個錄像機一條一條弄過去，然後交給中山分局的中山一、中山二等派出所，那麼警察都不要做事了，晚上也不要抓壞人了，就坐在那邊打電腦，因為民眾檢舉，有相片給你，對不對？"],["王部長國材：這個部分這次好像已經付委到交委會，交委會會做討論。"],["陳委員雪生：討論一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：不過今天重點還是在高雄到馬祖的航線，拜託部長回去跟民航局還有航政司……航政司司長也來了，司長是全國最帥的司長，韓司長，你主導一下，好不好？不要再拖了啦！我一直叫，叫了幾個月，你們一點動靜都沒有，好不好？我下次來追進度，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["王部長國材：謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳雪生召委。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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end":19.677,"text":"好,謝謝主席。是不是請部長?黃部長部長,早安。我們在朝為官啊,都是講說離島偏鄉我們要照顧,有沒有?"},{"start":20.615,"end":42.229,"text":"尤其越窮的地方我們更要注意今天花蓮的民意代表提出來花東建設條例我覺得他跟離島建設條例有點相似當然他這個條例是在我們離島建設條例之後這個花東建設條例我在道利法院已經提了很久了"},{"start":44.854,"end":58.913,"text":"傅崐萁也不要難過,我們黃坪通過很久了,都還在那邊玩,所以你也不要難過不過請部長要注意一下,離島偏鄉不要掛在嘴巴"},{"start":61.057,"end":81.537,"text":"請多給予支持好不好?當然今天的預算案可能講說我們立法院、立法委員不得增加預算的要求可以刪減法律案裡面有夾雜一些東西,但是很多都是這樣啊很多法律案裡面都有提出一些經費的案件來,所以部長說真的你幹得不錯啦"},{"start":82.625,"end":100.518,"text":"你在行政上都已經盡量保持中立了,我也看到了齁。我希望這一任閣口也好,下一任閣口也好,希望你能夠繼續連任好不好?有沒有信心啊?我是覺得應該換一些人,新人比較好。應該有信心嗎?沒有沒有,我說應該換人比較有這個新的作為。"},{"start":108.971,"end":135.862,"text":"不錯啦,王國才國家的材料勒不然這個名字齁好啦部長我請問啦我這次選舉也很辛苦啊也很辛苦,但是還是選上了齁很多候選人講說馬祖到高雄航線他去連署喔,我們馬祖老闆有6000個人,他可以連署7000個人出來啊蠻厲害的齁然後又找了交通部到這樣的話"},{"start":137.625,"end":166.104,"text":"高雄到馬祖的航線就可以飛了嗎?可以飛了嗎?現在我們是跟廉價縣政府合作希望先用包機飛到一個程度我先問你前面的聯署7000個人或是聯署7萬個人你會被嚇到了是不是?然後你就要飛了趕快飛了民營那麼強大就要飛了嗎?跟花東人一樣全部都舉手雙手雙腳贊成搞花東的這個建設你們還是不理他?"},{"start":167.635,"end":193.235,"text":"所以他連署了7000個人找交通部,因為執政黨嘛是不是找你們你們都要聽話啊,這樣的話就可以飛了嗎?沒有就是說現在是航空公司的確需求面我相信啊我說你要去找航空公司談嘛,問題在航空公司嘛對不對那你去找高雄市長啦秘書長啦找這些有用嗎?"},{"start":194.261,"end":217.135,"text":"跟利龍也談過,所以現在用包機部長我跟你講,我上次已經提過了,在董事巡講希望民航局局長出面好不好今天何局長沒有來你出面嘛,行政司主導一下你出面邀請航空公司嘛這個源頭應該是縣政府還有旅行社還有航空公司很重要這三個單位對不對"},{"start":218.871,"end":245.761,"text":"我們試費一下嘛,包機先試一下現在包機已經確定了,現在跟縣政府談一談齁比如說有多少旅客要搭我們就先試這個沒關係,這個縣政府去評估嘛好,我們跟他一起合作但是你們交通部要主導啊你要主導這樣的會議好不好好,我請民安局來好,第二個問題齁北竿機場改善嘛你看花東要幾百億,要在那邊頭破血流啦齁都快打架了"},{"start":246.752,"end":272.291,"text":"我們北竿機場改善啊,北竿很重要欸你不要出了事情再去改善,後悔都來不及啦是不是?我們這個千秋萬世的一個事情啊所以我們那邊還在吵吵鬧鬧的,還好啦不過他們主要是覺得配套配套把它做好,工期太長了齁所以當然我也希望這個案子趕快過您了解進度怎麼樣了現在?"},{"start":273.997,"end":300.913,"text":"現在我們已經把意見3月1日給國發會了應該他已經是往上層了啦應該很快國發會的前兩個月也往上層了啦齁然後層了送到行政院你們就不管了嗎不會不會那個我們追蹤是應該給他意見應該國發應該沒意見了那應該往上應該很快我覺得北京應該很快政府院長都還沒看到啊不會到院長那裡去啊還在行政院秘書處還在打賺還在賺啦"},{"start":303.688,"end":329.363,"text":"你們去問一下好不好?可以問嗎?我來幫你打聽一下打聽下去問的話會不會被官腔罵你一頓啊?不會不會他會不會問你管那麼多幹什麼?不會不會吧?不會那你們問一下跟我回報好不好?好第三個我老掉床談喔停車部長傳一個LINE給我很像要祭典嘛"},{"start":330.984,"end":358.249,"text":"記點這個很多民眾在反彈我請問你柯市長柯文哲市長前任他把所有停車位該停的全部畫停車格了對不對沒有停車格全部畫成紅線你要我們車子停哪裡去啊那就是叫警察給我開單嘛不停的開單嘛是不是這樣子這第一個現在你交通部"},{"start":359.281,"end":360.241,"text":"報告主席再給我一分鐘很快齁"},{"start":384.841,"end":408.018,"text":"你白天到辦公室來沒地方停,立法院周邊到處都是亂停的車子好,晚上開回去也是亂停,沒地方停嘛那警察不要搞治安,警察就來開單就好了嘛,是不是這是一個問題,第一個問題第二個問題晚上回去可能併排,我是覺得你們是不是路政司規劃一下"},{"start":409.795,"end":434.347,"text":"不影響交通的情況之下晚上10點鐘以後到凌晨8點鐘以前或是7點鐘以前你不要去開單嘛你引起民怨嘛是不是這個跟哪一黨沒有關係喔跟國民黨民進黨民眾黨這些黨派沒有關係喔你這是變名立名不要引起民怨的事情嘛這是大眾的需求嘛是不是"},{"start":436.223,"end":459.77,"text":"部長你答應一下,可以嗎?目前是零到六點,兼著上是可以開放可以停車,那的確這是我們在到交條例...零到六,你要這些人到外面去玩,去夜遊,去淡水河邊看看要不要跳海,然後到12點再開回來停目前零到六,地方政府可以全力調整"},{"start":460.35,"end":480.249,"text":"那剛才各個跟早有報告就是說這一次的修法也是一樣就是尤其這次停車的課題剛才談到非常難停晚上10點車輛已經很少流動了所以我們這一次會有一些這種微的調整你這個要修法嗎?會不會送到交通委員會來討論?還是你們用行政命令"},{"start":481.218,"end":506.36,"text":"這一次一起討論,我想說第一個是處罰條例比如說這個是民眾可不可以檢舉,我們現在是把它除外第二個就是才華細則的修正,我想在立法院可以討論某些行為是不是部長民眾檢舉的事情你可以討論一下嘛你要檢舉的話晚上12點以後這個停車不罰對不對那我10點到12點沒事的話我車子開到林山北路、中山北路"},{"start":507.526,"end":527.832,"text":"我用那個錄像一條一條給他弄過去然後交給中山分局的中山一中山二中山警察都不要做事了晚上也不要抓壞人了就在那邊坐在那邊打電腦民眾檢舉我有項目給你對不對好這個我們這一次在交委會那已經互為到交委會會做討論"},{"start":529.191,"end":555.228,"text":"討論一下嘛好不好不過今天重點還是高雄到馬來西亞的航線拜託部長回去跟民航局還有那個韓正思啊韓正思也來了我們最帥的市長全國最帥的市長你看韓市長你主導一下好不好不要再拖了啦我一直叫叫了幾個月你們一點動靜都沒有好不好我下次來追進度好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b7bd86cf19c481a3fcabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6c9b4925af52c8bb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:08:22 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會做立委不是像你寫的啦大家都索告喔"},{"start":240.131,"end":261.783,"text":"不是所以法務部代表因為剛才部長在講說綜合法務部給他們的意見這叫做預算案可是請你們回去看一看他只是把立法的總說明講的大概是這樣裡面的條文"},{"start":262.463,"end":288.093,"text":"沒有硬性要你們編2000多億啊你們也可以分10年編你們也可以分20年編沒有人講這個所以你們不要誤導啦不要誤導喔 法務部因為我也知道你們有你們的看法但是我還是要呼籲我們部長溝通甚過於我也知道特別條例對特別地區確實會造成這種效應的問題"},{"start":292.895,"end":315.73,"text":"這個我們也知道可是你要針對這個要特別去說明你不能講說立法委員提出這個特別條例那為什麼博定為什麼要提這個條例你知不知道我可不可以跟委員回答一下那個我想傅崐萁委員對於花東一些花蓮的建設重視事實上我雖然這個案子沒跟他討論我也知道他的想法他希望快一點啦"},{"start":316.87,"end":336.9,"text":"所以這個8月份可能就出來但是他會覺得要更快更可以去確保為了其他的想法你們都有在做我看你們的報告你們都有在做可是速度太慢30年以來你們等一下又那個那個花東改什麼改我告訴你"},{"start":337.68,"end":339.702,"text":"我提出這個條例我認為不但不違憲他合情合理但是我同意"},{"start":360.441,"end":375.455,"text":"有時候會造成離島特別條例這種種但是你要說明清楚啊你要說明清楚你不說明清楚就是這樣對幹我要呼籲你千萬千萬不要因為"},{"start":376.756,"end":390.635,"text":"科總召給你們的錯誤進席到現在為止二月一號到現在我們在委員會通過任何東西沒有一樣科總召講不違憲的"},{"start":391.957,"end":416.452,"text":"那如果這樣繼續下去,所有的案子通通違憲,那你們就不要做啊!除了你們提出來要做的,那就不違憲。立法委員提出來的東西,通通違憲,不中。我講實在,真正的問題,就是你們耽擱太久嘛。花東之人真的忍受不了了嘛。人家才提這個案,提特別條例嘛。"},{"start":416.792,"end":438.222,"text":"你們如果答應人家的8年到現在一個出評你們就搞了8年有幾個8年保定我們說實在這個保分啊真的你有時候要聽聽人家的意見不要一開始就是跟我們磕腫招任何事情都是違憲那如果立法院要幹什麼"},{"start":439.879,"end":462.951,"text":"所以這點我特別要拜託部長請你們要修改修正方向不要動不動就違憲這點我特別要呼籲你們花東人不能再等所以特別條例是符合花東人之需求所以部長伯伯有在走所以這個部分真的我是良心的建議"},{"start":464.231,"end":484.866,"text":"雖然不住在那裏但是我還是呼籲你盡快不要用這種方式好不好我可不可以說明一下我想對花東的建設現在剛剛談到蘇花改已經做好了現在就出發案還有這個花東雙軌等等都要進行過去按照我們這一個中長城的計畫每一項都一個一個來做"},{"start":486.387,"end":511.165,"text":"雖然當然審查時間長很多是環評的課題可是你如果不經過環評以後這個道路有問題沒有啦環評也沒有環評這麼久了啦可以不可以這個環評本來是有一定步驟這個我們都知道我告訴你問題就是你們兩個店一個自愛男性一個人有特別條例哪有自愛男性只有一個剛才我已經講過"},{"start":512.426,"end":525.115,"text":"如果是離島特別條例這麼多,你們以後無法應付,你就坦白解釋嘛!好不好?對阿,你重點你們從來沒有寫阿!沒錯!我這樣講阿,別再變啦!別再變啦!人家提這個案,很明顯是法律案,好不好?不要再誤導是預算案,好不好?"}]}},{"id":"150332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b3e8191f7000b246fe5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a64318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:22:20 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10:33:18","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":658,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:33:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:22:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時22分）謝謝主席，我們請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。3月23號湖內佳豐鋁業工廠爆炸，2死6傷，這個是非常重大的一個工安事件，這麼重大的一個工安事件，我看到媒體特別提到說，事實上去年12月這一家業者已經被開罰了5次，請問職安署有掌握這樣的狀況嗎？高雄勞工局有通報嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，它那個是廢棄物清理法的。"],["王委員育敏：它違反的是廢棄物清理法，跟工安完全沒有關係？"],["許部長銘春：對，跟工安沒有關係。"],["王委員育敏：但是它說它過去也被裁罰了高達十幾次，跟工安都沒有關係？"],["許部長銘春：跟工安有關係的，我記得好像是7次，就是通知它要改善。"],["王委員育敏：有改善嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有改善。"],["王委員育敏：跟這次發生的原因是不一樣的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不一樣，完全不一樣。"],["王委員育敏：因為一家工廠發生這麼多次情況，雖然是不同的情況，但是對於勞動部來講，對於地方的勞工局來講，有把它列為是你們去稽查它相關安全設施的一個重點對象嗎？有被列冊嗎？有特別被列管嗎？有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為它之前違反職安的部分，都是跟工廠設備安全沒有關係的，我記得好像是教育訓練的部分跟自動……"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有列冊，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：它就是……"],["王委員育敏：並沒有把它列為高風險？"],["許部長銘春：對，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：但是媒體報導它有高達700度的高溫。"],["許部長銘春：這一次它是在製程中有一個控制系統發生問題，據現在瞭解的是這樣，但後續真正的原因要等調查報告出來，我們也認為像鋁鑄這種產業其實是滿高風險的產業，它一旦發生爆炸，其實影響很大，我們……"],["王委員育敏：所以過去你們沒有把它列為是高風險？"],["許部長銘春：我們……"],["王委員育敏：你們現在會把這個相關的工廠列為高風險嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["王委員育敏：因為它既是高溫，又一個不慎就爆炸，而且死傷是這麼大的一個範圍。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，之後我們會針對鋁鑄造業相關的工廠實施專案的勞檢。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在盤查臺灣類似這樣的一個工廠，鋁鑄造業有多少家？分布在哪裡？是不是多數又是在高雄？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，總數是473，那分布我看一下……"],["王委員育敏：473家……"],["許部長銘春：跟鋁相關的啦！如果單純鋁鑄造業是243……"],["王委員育敏：243家，那分布在哪裡？"],["許部長銘春：分布我看一下，其實都有……"],["王委員育敏：有集中的現象嗎？"],["許部長銘春：比較多的是在彰化……臺南最多，臺南、彰化。"],["王委員育敏：好，那本席要求……"],["許部長銘春：臺中也有，新北也不少，桃園……"],["王委員育敏：好，那本席要求，既然有超過兩百多家是同樣的，那它的製程過程當中可能有高溫的情況，這兩百多家我要要求勞動部的就是，這次既然爆發這麼重大的一個工安事件，你們應該把這一次的檢討、把這些所有發生的原因要回饋給這兩百多家……"],["許部長銘春：會、會。"],["王委員育敏：讓他們更審慎去注意，就是在它製程過程可能會產生這樣的工安風險，這可不可以做到？"],["許部長銘春：可以，我覺得這件事情，我們會來規劃一個座談會，邀請高階主管來參與，把這個案例還有在整個相關製程或者鋁鑄造，可能會遇到的危險，就一次的座談，讓大家能夠清楚瞭解。當然，另外勞檢的部分我們也會規劃。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求的比較著重是你要把每一次重大工安意外發生的原因，再回饋給這一些相關的產業，讓它做下一次的預防，我覺得這個比事後的開罰其實是更重要的，因為你這樣子才能確保他們在製程過程當中，大家提高那個風險意識，或者是相關的教育訓練做到位，才不會有下一個同樣的案例再發生，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分本席要求你們回去研議之後，把你們預備的作法，一份報告給本席，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這個非常重要。","另外，我要提醒的就是高雄的重大工安事件，現在看起來在製造業的工安，其實統計起來它在六都當中是最高的，可能它過去是一個工業的城市，我們發現最近這好幾起，無論是化學廠、大理石工廠或是其他的工廠，這一種爆炸，然後崩落、倒塌相關的其實是蠻高的。就這個部分，部長過去也出身高雄市，你自己是不是有一些觀察？你認為這個應該要怎麼樣去改善？過去這樣的一個工業都市，這麼多的工廠，然後它發生的比例是相對高的，要怎麼樣去改善？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，高雄這幾年，之前啦！我是覺得它的工安發生率滿高，這兩年有降下來，當然……"],["王委員育敏：統計起來還是相對高。"],["許部長銘春：像上禮拜發生這件事，我們還是覺得非常遺憾，不過我是覺得很重要的就是，在相關的製造業也好、營造業也好，高風險的部分，我是覺得平常可能要請地方政府這邊更針對一些相關的如何落實自主管理、預防災害發生，應該要再做相關的一些宣導啦！另外，提高檢查率、嚴查、勤查、嚴罰，這個我想都可以對降低職災會有所幫助。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我再讓你看另外一個數據，剛剛我們提到的是高雄的部分，如果全國看起來，我們重大職災死亡的人數事實上是居高不下，你看每一年這個數字幾乎都是超過三百人，而這當中營建業大概就是占了一半以上，因為他是從高空墜落，所以死亡人數也都非常的高。","所以我要問一下部長，我們有職安署，我們也一直在宣導，但是重大職災的死亡人數，其實你如果就整個統計來看，並沒有一個下降的趨勢，都還是維持在三百人這樣的高點，而這一些其實坦白講透過進一步預防是可以不用發生的，如果它前面再做得更好一點的話。部長你自己有沒有分析，為什麼我們又成立了職安署，也是很重視這件事啊！那做到現在，為什麼還是這麼高的死亡人數？"],["許部長銘春：對，平均有降，但營造業還是……我是認為這個還非常不滿意啦！我跟委員報告，因為可能也跟這幾年整個申請建造，我們總建坪……"],["王委員育敏：你說是因為營造業增加的關係？"],["許部長銘春：增加，而且我們發現都是高樓層跟開挖，這個部分……"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子，營造業就要有專案好好的來澈底檢討啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，所以我們這幾年一直把營造業都列為我們檢查的重點。"],["王委員育敏：你們有一個「營造業墜落打擊年」，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員育敏：你們去年有訂這樣的方案嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，今年……"],["王委員育敏：今年要開始施行，但這個的重點是什麼？我很擔心，因為我看到你們有一個仿照日本，叫「安全看得見」，你們是要做手冊，做手冊有用嗎？你們要怎麼落實？來，署長，你要補充，你說。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員……"],["王委員育敏：跟大家報告清楚，你這個到底要怎麼做，讓它發揮真正的效果？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，日本的工安它有一些起伏，但日本營造業相對比臺灣好，這我們承認，「安全看得見」是在現場的一些標示、路線、顏色還有警訊，在現場看得到那個是危險或不危險、安全或不安全，是現場看得見，而不是純粹發手冊而已，所以我們會希望檢查員到現場的時候輔導事業單位，特別是營造業，這邊是有護欄、這邊是有高空作業，要做警示、要做一些判斷，顏色出來就可以看到安全，才做進一步的工作，所以是在現場的安全看得到。"],["王委員育敏：現場看得見，有非常清楚的標示……"],["鄒署長子廉：是、是、是。"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼樣去確保現場的安全是有到位？除了標示之外，有些工人他可能應該要一些安全的……像那個要拉住的，但是他完全沒有扣或是沒有做啊！像SOP根本就是漏掉的，這種程序上的，你要怎麼去監管？"],["許部長銘春：平常他要進到工地都要有工安的教育訓練，這個……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！但是現場可能沒有落實啊！你要怎麼樣去確認現場是有落實？"],["許部長銘春：因為每個公司都有營造的監造人員，其實我們也都會要求監造人一定要每天去巡嘛！要針對在現場施作的這些勞工、員工，安全防護具有沒有都具備、有沒有扣好，這個一定要落實。"],["王委員育敏：本席另外一個要求，除了剛剛的要求之外，針對你們今年要全面啟動的營造業的「安全看得見」要怎麼去落實？怎麼有效的降低這樣的死亡率？你們應該要有一個比較清楚的專案內容跟報告，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員育敏：也提供給本席跟本委員會。","最後，我要問一下消防員權益的問題，消防員到底要不要適用勞安的條例？他們的職安需不需要保障？目前勞動部的態度是怎麼樣？工會他們是希望可以納入勞安條例，但是勞動部呢？你們要去保障消防員的職業安全嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實這個部分就是在他們消防員的專章裡面。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在傾向是回到專章，沒有回到勞動部這邊的職安法？"],["許部長銘春：這個就是院那邊開會……"],["王委員育敏：那你們有沒有跟工會溝通？沒有？"],["許部長銘春：因為那個是消防署……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們是覺得不關你們的事，好，我瞭解了，所以你們完全沒有涉及這塊就對了？"],["許部長銘春：不是，沒有啦！委員，消防專章我們有幫忙。"],["王委員育敏：你們有幫忙？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們有幫忙，我們有提供專業……"],["王委員育敏：好，那本席要求至少一件事情，消防員的保障不應該低於勞工，應該是等齊的，所以你們應該要在行政院裡面好好去反映，針對怎麼樣進一步去保障消防員他們的職業安全、避免過勞的事情，我覺得勞動部你們要提出最專業的意見，好不好？給消防弟兄打氣，然後作為他們的後盾，好不好？謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：好，謝謝王育敏委員的發言。","下一位我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_sta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我了解了所以你們完全沒有涉及這一塊就對了不是我們消防專章我們有幫忙你們有幫忙我們有幫忙那本席要求至少一件事情"},{"start":635.776,"end":655.566,"text":"這個消防員的保障不應該低於勞工應該是等期的所以你們應該要在行政院裡面好好去反應針對消防員怎麼樣進一步去保障他們的職業安全避免過勞的事情我覺得勞動部裡面要提出最專業的意見好不好給消防弟兄就是打氣然後做為他們的後盾好不好好謝謝好謝謝王玉明"}]}},{"id":"150331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bd7786126673bf32c8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a65a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:19:28 - 10:30:58","影片長度":"00:11:30","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":690,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:30:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:19:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時19分）謝謝主席。我們請金管會主委、銀行局莊局長，還有證期局。"],["主席：黃主委、莊局長、證期局張局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：是，主委早安。我想近期經濟部為了阻斷租賃公司放高利貸給消費者，其實我們做了很多，有很大的動作跟改善，但是他們真的是在檢討還是藉機在推銷，我們顯然是要再好好的來討論一下。我在網路上看到很多很多的廣告，就是這個「緊急公告」：三大融資公司已經正式的對外宣布，自4月1號起，我們要調整可貸的一個額度，不會是像以前那麼的寬鬆，一臺摩托車可以借到30萬，一臺車子可以借到一百多萬。所以它告訴大家這是最後的末班車，而這3家融資公司，就是中租迪和的416億股權、它的資本額，還有裕融43億，還有和潤的66億。我想在這裡問一下金管會主委，你認為這樣一個行銷廣告，他們有沒有涉嫌藉機推銷？它不揭露實際的一個利率，在這裡頭都沒有講到利率是多少，等到我們消費者借到錢了以後才知道這個利率是比天還高，這個是不是類似詐騙的一個高利貸呢？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實我不能替他們回答它到底是行銷還是為了要遵循法規，但是我們……"],["賴委員惠員：可是單是看這一個公告裡頭，你看不出來嗎？它這個陷阱這麼多，不是每一個人都像我們……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實這也是我們的重點，我們希望對於類似這種借貸，本來就要明示它的利率還有違約的規定，這本來就是要去做的。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們從去年年初就一直要租賃公會做到這些事情。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也看得出來這一個是不合理的，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們最近在多位委員的垂詢關心之下，其實經濟部跟我們都有同步採取一些措施，我想對他們來講是會強化監理的。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我想這個已經有達到了一個成效，針對的就是這三大租賃公司，其實他們背後的股東是誰差別很大，在金融圈裡頭說這個顯然是一國兩制，在這三大租賃公司裡頭他們背後的股東，如果他們有銀行背景的時候，管理是非常嚴格的，如果他們背後的股東沒有金融業者的一個背景的話，就等於是沒有人管。你怎麼看待這個問題呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我個人覺得因為金管會是高度監理，授信、借款本來不是金融的專屬業務，本來也不是說不能做，但是在過去這幾年包括穩定房價各方面，我們也透過我們的金融機構，間接的對這些租賃公司相關的授信有做一些節制，這是有在做的。我剛才也跟您報告，去年年初大家談……"],["賴委員惠員：可是你的節制、管理就是在金管會管得到的，就是開發金、第一金、華南金、台新金，這些都沒有問題啊！但你管不到的中租、裕融、和潤呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實票券公司也是他的金主啊！"],["賴委員惠員：誰？"],["黃主任委員天牧：票券公司。"],["賴委員惠員：票券公司也是金主？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們也透過票券公司間接的對它……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你有在管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有啊！"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，我再跟你討論一個，中租跨足生醫保健，一個新品牌叫仲安家，快速的崛起成為辜仲立的一個新寵。我們在財訊裡頭都看到了，2020它的業績才8,000萬，到了2022年它在臺灣的業績是2億；在中國大陸是2.5億，所以總數超過五億，他非常得意告訴我們，這一個是即將崛起的、一個非常好的公司，那我們看中租成長的期間跟仲安生醫的業績，它的成長幾乎高度一致啊！主委，你們有沒有看到它背後的原因？是不是有機可乘？有沒有問題？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我非常尊敬您有這麼深入的分析，租賃跟生醫是不是彼此有互動，我還需要瞭解，不過如果委員有什麼指示，可以交代我們。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我再給你看一些資料，中國金融新聞網特別講到金融服務還要搭售營養品，這是什麼情形？就是你借錢還要綁保健品，這個已經判讀下來了，中國法院判讀是不合理的。相對的，你強迫客戶採購特定的產品，有沒有涉及背信跟掏空？他們都是上市公司，可是他們的生技是成立在老闆私人的公司裡頭，這個有沒有背信？有沒有掏空？你回答我這個問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，跟您報告，背信、掏空都不是金管會能夠認定，但是我們上次在財委會有報告過，我們會立刻依照銀行的經驗，請租賃業訂定強化內控的準則，然後在第四季由交易所查它的內控。我們也會要求它針對大家關心的這些BNPL、車貸……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，你們有積極的作為，可是在第四季裡頭，我相信這個時間是慢了一點，是不是有辦法快？因為我相信有很多無知的消費者一點一滴被陷害，我希望加緊腳步，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們儘量提前，然後會做財報實審，遵照您的提示。謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。後面的問題我們要請通傳會副主委、法務部常次、數位部次長。"],["主席：請黃常次，數位發展部李政次。"],["賴委員惠員：針對金融廣告的行銷，我要請教法務部次長，租賃公司隱匿不合理的利息是不是會構成重利罪？它大量在網路上行銷會不會呢？"],["黃次長謀信：這個涉及個案認定的問題，刑法上重利罪有固定的構成要件，包括主觀的、客觀的，所以我沒有辦法回答委員，通案上這個廣告會不會構成重利，必須要個案上去看每一個犯罪行為的主觀……"],["賴委員惠員：我現在講的就是通案，我不講個案。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，通案上沒辦法討論它會不會構成犯罪，只有具體個案才有辦法討論。"],["賴委員惠員：所以它不一定會構成重利罪。"],["黃次長謀信：不是這樣講，要看犯罪事實的狀況，依每一個個案認定。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那我再請教你，超過16%要怎麼要回來？約定利率超過每一年16%的時候，超過的部分是無效的。次長，民眾付出去的要怎麼要回來？我們有沒有辦法有保護機制，保護這些被詐騙的被害人？有沒有辦法？"],["黃次長謀信：民法上就超過固定的利率有一定的規範，當然委員提到這是特別做一個規範，我們要從其規定，如果超過法定利率的16%，按照這條規定無效，無效的話它在民法上沒有請求權。"],["賴委員惠員：是，我在這裡跟各位討論，其實臺灣現有的社會裡頭普遍存在很多租賃公司的廣告行為，如果我們沒有跨部會整合，這樣的狀況就充斥我們的生活。我不知道在座的4位有沒有接過詐騙電話？你們的手機裡頭有沒有這樣的訊息？就是要你貸款的騷擾電話，還有業者怎麼知道你的資訊？有沒有辦法事前阻斷通話？是不是請翁副主委回應問題？好不好？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：有接過這樣的訊息。"],["賴委員惠員：有接過這樣的訊息，那你怎麼辦，把它掛了，還是你向我回答就是借錢要還？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：剛才我們的報告裡面提到，這個訊息都會攔阻跟警示。"],["賴委員惠員：是，可是如果有攔阻，我們有做很好的管制的話，就不會出現大家一直討論的這些問題，所以本席要求我們要循過去P2P業者的管理途徑，我希望將租賃業者納入管轄。這個要拜託主委，要求修訂的時候，我們要更嚴格的建立自律規則，也希望建立管制下架廣告及騷擾電話管理機制，並請一個月內以書面回應我。法務部要重新檢討重利罪的構成要件，建立跨部會機制，隨時進行檢討，也請你一個月內提出書面報告給本席。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。好，下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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主委早安我想這個近期經濟部為了阻斷主任公司換高利貸給消費者其實我們做了很多就是很大的一個動作跟改善那真的是在檢討還是藉機的在推銷這個好像我們顯然是要再好好的來討論一下"},{"start":40.888,"end":66.295,"text":"我在網路上看到很多很多的一個廣告就是這個緊急的公告就是三大融資公司他已經正式的對外宣布4月1號起開始了如果你們就是4月1號我們要調整調整他們可貸的一個額度不會是在以前那麼的寬鬆一台摩托車可以借到30萬一台車子可以借到"},{"start":66.715,"end":66.815,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":96.715,"end":116.664,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":117.727,"end":135.452,"text":"法務委員其實我不能替他們回答他到底是行銷還是為了要遵循法規但是我們但是看這一張這一個公告裡頭你看不出來嗎他這個陷阱這麼多不是每一個人都像我嗎法務委員其實這也是我們的重點我們希望他"},{"start":136.272,"end":137.573,"text":"所以你也看得出來這個是不合理的 對不對"},{"start":157.335,"end":181.291,"text":"我想我們最近在多位委員的垂尋關心之下其實經濟部跟我們都有同步採取一些措施那我想對他們來講是會強化監理的是我想這個已經有達到了一個成效那針對的就是這三大主任公司這個其實他們背後的股東是誰在這個差別很大在金融圈裡頭他說這個顯然是一國兩制"},{"start":185.654,"end":202.153,"text":"在這一個三大的一個那個主任公司裡頭他們背後的股東如果他們的背景是受到我們那個整體的一個銀行還有就是有這個銀行的背景的時候他們的一個"},{"start":203.234,"end":203.334,"text":"主席"},{"start":220.307,"end":247.297,"text":"其實我個人覺得因為金管會是高度監理那授信這款本來不是金融的專屬業務其實本來也不是說不能做但是在過去這幾年我們其實包括穩定房價各方面我們也透過我們的金融機構間接的對這些主任公司的相關的授信有做一些節制是有在做的"},{"start":247.737,"end":252.298,"text":"那我剛也跟您報告去年年初大家談...報告委員其實票卷公司也是他的金主"},{"start":269.364,"end":270.865,"text":"中租跨族生意保健 中安家"},{"start":285.159,"end":311.571,"text":"這個快速的一個崛起成為顧仲立的一個新蟲我們在財訊裡頭都看到了2020他的那個業績才是8000萬到了2022年他在台灣的業績是2億在中國大陸是2.5億所以這個總數超過5億他非常引以得意他告訴我們說他這一個這個是即將崛起的一個"},{"start":312.811,"end":313.011,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":329.707,"end":345.721,"text":"有沒有問題?報告委員,我非常尊敬您有這麼深入的分析,不過這個主任跟生醫是不是彼此有互動,那我這個還需要去了解,不過如果委員有什麼指示可以交代我們。"},{"start":346.001,"end":371.866,"text":"我再跟您看一些資料這一個是在中國金融的新聞網裡頭他特別講到了金融的服務還要搭售營養品這是什麼情形就是說你借錢你還要保健品那這一個是已經判讀下來了他判讀下來法院他們中國的法院判讀是說這個是不合理的"},{"start":372.446,"end":372.586,"text":"委員給您報告．"},{"start":397.276,"end":414.952,"text":"被信掏空都不是金管會能夠認定的但是我們上次在財委會有報告過我們會立刻依照銀行的經驗請租賃業定一個內控的強化內控準則然後在第4季由交易所去查他的內控"},{"start":415.572,"end":434.193,"text":"我們也會要求他針對大家關心的這些BMPR這些車輛﹖我相信各位你們有積極的作為可是在第4季裡頭我相信這個時間是慢了一點是不是有辦法快因為我相信有很多很多的無知的消費者"},{"start":435.074,"end":451.731,"text":"就是1.1D是在被陷害的。好,照委員我們盡量提前,然後會做財報實審。是。遵照您的提示,謝謝。好,謝謝。那後面的問題我們要請那個通傳會副主委、法務部常事、數位部次長。我想針對的……"},{"start":455.799,"end":473.105,"text":"針對著金融廣告的一個行銷我在這裡要問那個請教法務部部長就是說他隱匿不合理的一個利息就是我們的主任公司隱匿不合理的一個利息是不是會構成重力罪他大量的在網路上的一個行銷會不會呢?"},{"start":474.625,"end":475.026,"text":"我現在講的就是通案"},{"start":490.345,"end":491.906,"text":"我再請教我再請教你針對的就是超過16%超過16%要怎麼要回來我們從這一個"},{"start":513.739,"end":537.034,"text":"約定的一個例例就是每一年的16%的時候,超過的部分約定是無效的。部長,我們看到了就是民眾戶出去的,要怎麼要回來,這個我們有沒有辦法就是去有保護的機制,就是說來保護這些被詐騙的、被害人呢?有沒有辦法?"},{"start":538.395,"end":554.446,"text":"民法上就這個超過固定的利率它有一定的規範當然委員會提到這是一個特別做一個規範我們要重啟規定那如果超過這個法定利率超過16按照這條規定它是無效無效的話它法律上但民法上它就沒有請求權"},{"start":556.187,"end":576.093,"text":"所以我在這裡跟各位討論就是說其實在整個整個就是台灣的一個現有的一個社會裡頭普遍的存在了很多很多的一個這樣子的一個主任公司的一個廣告行為如果我們沒有跨部會去整合的話其實這樣的一個狀況就衝刺了我們"},{"start":579.554,"end":580.114,"text":"我想是不是請那個我們那個"},{"start":608.88,"end":620.631,"text":"我們請翁副主委來回應這個問題好不好有接過這樣的訊息有接過這樣的訊息那你怎麼辦你把他掛了我想通常會這邊就會剛才在我們的報告裡面會對這個訊息都會去做攔阻跟警示"},{"start":625.976,"end":643.138,"text":"是,可是如果就是有做那個攬組那我們有做很好的一個管制的話就不會像現在今天大家一直在討論的這些問題所以本席在這裡要求我們行過去的P2P的業者管理的一個途徑"},{"start":644.239,"end":665.013,"text":"我們希望將主任業者納入管轄,這個要拜託就是我們的主委就是要求修訂的時候我們要更嚴管的去把這個自立的規則把它建立下來。那也希望就是建立管制下架廣告緊急騷擾的電話的管理機制,那請一個月書面回應我。"},{"start":665.433,"end":680.498,"text":"然後法務部你要重新再檢討就是重力罪構成的一個要件建立一個跨部會的機制隨時進行檢討那也請你一個月內那個書面的報告給本席好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝下一位質詢請王宏威王委員"}]}},{"id":"150330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bfdff69d42471b12a0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a607ad72fc102174e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:17:31 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10:27:07","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":576,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:27:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:17:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時17分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委早。應該現在基本上大家的焦點都會focus在電價，電價會不會影響到我們後面整個通膨，還有物價？應該大家焦點會在這裡，我們國發會有什麼樣的預計跟打算？要怎麼樣來協助這一次的調漲？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，據我知道，經濟部這一次的方案主要是照顧民生，所以民生那個部分漲得比較少，漲得比較高的……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是民生也有1,434萬戶。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，所以它漲得比較少。"],["陳委員亭妃：是漲得比較少，比例是比較少，可是影響的還是1,434萬戶啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我同意，還是會有影響，沒有錯，所以我們會有配套措施嘛！"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！要有配套啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我剛剛說結構上會有一些設計。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我們千萬不要再用這個字眼說：因為我們關心民生，所以我們漲得比較少，不是這麼說！而是我們應該說：因為在整個所謂的國際情勢，變得在整個評議委員會不得不做出這個決議！好，那我們的配套在哪裡？針對這民生用戶1,434萬戶受到衝擊的，我們要怎麼辦？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：穩定物價小組就會把大宗物資的減稅方案從3月份延到6月份，希望讓進口的大宗原物料可以稍微平抑，從3月份再延到6月份。至於經濟部也有針對其他譬如說瓦斯什麼都不要漲……"],["陳委員亭妃：問題來了，今天把這些大宗物資減了，由政府來協助，有沒有真的去幫助到整個抑制物價這樣的關鍵？這也是你們要去調整、要去注意的啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，有，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：如果今天我們政府協助大宗物資了，可是物價還是一樣在調、在飛，那怎麼辦？我們通常都只是講一塊，可是地方的感受沒有達標，影響的就是人民對我們的觀感。所以我覺得我們要把所有的配套做到一個很具足的，讓人民感受到我們真的是不得不漲，可是我們有做了一些配套讓整個民生的問題、物價的問題、通膨的問題不要有那麼明顯的調幅，這才是重點啊！我們每次講會繼續延後大宗物資，可是大宗物資讓人民感受到的是你補助他們，但問題還是在漲啊！在地方上的物價還是在漲。所以我覺得主委，我希望你們把整個配套拿出來，你們希望能夠有什麼具體措施來協助穩定民生物價，因為你們是know how，你們要去溝通所有的各部會，所以這個部分請你提供一份報告給我辦公室。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：如何去抑制、穩定我們的民生物價，因為這一波的電價調漲，這才是重點啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，謝謝委員提醒。因為我們的政策陸續公布了，我想我們把它整合起來，可以看到比較全面。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們過去最大的問題就是你們陸續公布，什麼叫陸續公布？人民怎麼會有感呢？你們要給人家漲電價，已經漲定了啊！這個已經很確定了，題目就在這裡了，你的答案為什麼要一次一次提出，你就一次提出來，讓大家知道政府為了不得不漲的狀況，政府做了什麼準備，過去的問題就是一樣一樣提出，人民無感。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是啊，報告委員，比如說央行理監事會就是有固定的時間，我們當然也要到那個時間才可以……"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得這不是理由啦！如果今天它是一個很重要的議題，需要協助抑制物價，不要讓整個物價跳彈上去，主委，物價上去了就回不來了啦。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：再去做後面的補救都沒有用了啦！都沒有用了，你要記得這一句話，插花要插在前面，不是插在後面啦！要漲電價討論多久了，怎麼會整個配套後面才要出來，還說因為什麼開會的時間，那都不是理由。另外一個，我們現在知道台積電是國發基金的重要資助者，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們投資它。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為它對國發基金大概有六成的貢獻度，是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，在獲利的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！獲利的部分，貢獻度啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這波電價的調漲會不會影響？會不會損益啊？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：以目前台積電配發的股息不會有影響，因為已經決定了。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會有影響喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：每年它大概都會配11塊、12塊。"],["陳委員亭妃：都會配11塊、12塊，所以不會因為這波電價……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對！看起來……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為它講這一次的調漲它的電價也往上跳彈了很多，本來需要用電的，當然……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它每年都賺20、30塊啦，所以它配息11塊、12塊。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以它固定配息就是11塊、12塊的範圍，不會因為電價的問題而有所影響？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不會、不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個你要很確定，我覺得這部分大家要講清楚、說明白，不要到時候在工業用電所調漲的部分又轉嫁到讓我們來支出耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是！不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會這樣吧？不會喔。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，主委謝謝。另外一個部分，就是現在很清楚確定在養牛產業全面升級的轉型計畫，為了要因應紐西蘭的大量進口。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是！"],["陳委員亭妃：這部分已經轉到國發會了，其中有幾樣，我簡單講，寫了這麼多，其實重點就是整個淘汰泌乳牛補助計畫，這個要追溯到2023年12月1號，主委，這個我很確定地跟你說，這是過去農業部答應人家的，我們辦了好多場的座談會。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們儘快會審把它通過。"],["陳委員亭妃：對！沒有，我今天就是特別、特別提出，過去我們跟農業部講，農業部現在轉到你們這裡作為一個平臺，雖然這部分執行者也是他們，可是你們是平臺，所以當時候允諾包括去地方座談會都說淘汰泌乳牛，雖然這個計畫是往後的，可是沒有問題，在2023年12月1號，因為當時就鼓勵很多業者已經在做這樣的轉型了，結果是我們的計畫太慢了，這部分讓配合的業者反而受損害，對不對？所以追溯到2023年12月1號這個時間點。","第二個部分，就是學童要飲用國產鮮乳，我們不能講保久乳喔！一定是鮮乳，如果產地沒辦法直送的地方才用保久乳，不能是現在就叫大家用保久乳，我們要鼓勵大家用國產鮮乳，這很重要！主委，這個拜託喔！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝，2月20號報到我們這邊來，我們會儘快審議。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，再來就是要正確標示它的牛乳種類，還有產地來源，很重要喔！因為要讓大家知道什麼是國產、什麼是紐西蘭進口的，什麼是進口的、什麼是國產的要很清楚標示喔！這幾個大重點主委要掌控住喔！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有，是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是已經開了數次的協調會，因為已經正式轉到國發會，這個計畫很多，但是這三個大重點，預算、還有這三個大重點要堅持住，謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，接下來請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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10:22:10","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":688,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:22:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:10:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長好。看到你都覺得很親切，一樣是屏東人，我要問你的是，上次我也有問過，剛剛很多委員提到高雄鋁業爆炸2死6傷的事情，上次屏東的明揚大火也很嚴重，造成10死、九十幾個人受傷。屏東縣的職災是4.196，全國第一名，我看高雄市也還不錯，也是滿高的，你做過高雄市的副市長，現在是勞動部長，為什麼高雄、屏東那邊常常出事情，你說明一下好不好？除了開罰單以外，你們到底有沒有在教育人家，你們有在輔導嗎？勞動部裡面有沒有聘請學者專家去幫他們，尤其是針對這些高危險行業，你們是怎麼處理的？還是只會罵人、開單？"],["許部長銘春：有，其實我們平常除了透過勞檢以外，也有針對這些高風險的行業，我們與經濟部有總體檢合作，我們都會去做一些宣導說明，讓大家對於職災怎麼落實自主管理，以及要怎麼來提升，這個部分其實都有在做了。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果有專家去看，看到這些高危險的化工廠，有可能會爆炸的這些東西，你們一看到問題就要趕快加強輔導，該區隔的要區隔，不要像明揚公司的辦公室、工廠、儲存場全部和在一起，一定會出事情的。這是屏東的特定區，距離屏東高鐵只有1.4公里，這裡離明揚很近，以後如果這些化工廠、這些高危險的黏著劑工廠發生爆炸，高鐵也會出問題，所以這是很危險的。我在這裡要要求的是，這些化學工廠、這些鋁業工廠、這些會爆炸的、容易發生火災的工廠，你們要總體檢，你們絕對有這個能力，總體檢之後要輔導，該開單的開單，但是也該給予輔導，讓它不要發生事情，不然只有開單的話，我也很會開，但是開單沒有用，對它一直開罰、一直開罰，它也是不在乎。"],["許部長銘春：這個要跨部會來做。"],["蘇委員清泉：勞動部本身就有能力，你們職安署……"],["許部長銘春：對啦，本於我們權責的部分，我們一定會加強，相關部會一起來努力，大家協力。"],["蘇委員清泉：像明揚一年賺5.9億，你開單罰個20萬、30萬，你們去查了18次，其中有9次開單，我算了一下總共加起來剛好是罰50萬，它賺了5、6億，所以它才不會管你，這是不對的，好不好？這個差太多了！另外，我上次有講過那些做高爾夫球的業者，你們有沒有去查？"],["鄒署長子廉：有，跟委員報告，目前做高爾夫球的我記得是6家。"],["蘇委員清泉：6家，對。"],["鄒署長子廉：其他轄區包括彰化、雲林，我們也做了一部分的檢查，特別針對它危險物質的儲存，我們也以專案的部分來瞭解，這個部分跟委員回報。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以已經都有掃過一次了？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：那這樣像這些，像屏東也有鋁業、鋁錠的工廠，我都去參觀過，高雄這個是一發生就爆炸、高溫、火災，然後就死人了，我們不希望這種事情一而再再而三地發生，兩個禮拜前才質詢你們，現在又發生高雄這件事，聽了實在是很難過！這個是高壓氣體的工作場所還是鍋爐的工作場所？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，這個廠沒有鍋爐，但是有兩個高壓氣體設備，都是經過定期檢查合格的，這個案子還是要在現場實際地做嚴格地分析調查才可以知道肇災原因，目前我們初判是它處理系統裡面的降溫噴水措施造成了故障，所以變成它的鋁液沒有固定化就倒到冷卻水池了，這個細節的部分還是要現場再做進一步瞭解，所以不是鍋爐本體或是壓力本體的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們醫療院所對於這個尋根、追根之旅做得很落實，那是因為衛福部會找學者、專家來輔導你們，你有問題就丟出來，他們會幫你一起解決。勞動部有沒有這個機制，還有沒有這個能力，還是不想做？工廠當然是非常多啦，但是你們一定要把這些高危險性的部分一而再再而三地去掃描、去檢查，我覺得花錢只是一個末端的事情，前面的預防可能比較重要。工廠真的都分不清，教也教不會，那就叫它停工好了啦！不然那是很可怕的，職災那麼多，誰受得了，好不好？部長。"],["許部長銘春：好，這個部分我們會來加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛我們廖委員問，這個職責是勞動部的職責，還是地方政府的職責？你當過高雄市副市長，像高雄這件事是誰要負責？沒人負責，推來推去？"],["許部長銘春：關於職災，發生事情時，平常的執行當然在地方政府，我們勞動部不僅監督也會協助，職災的預防或者職災的這些處理都是中央、地方一起來合作，不管哪個縣市都一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得這樣推來推去也沒有用，沒有意思啦！我們看到的是，不希望發生……"],["許部長銘春：我們沒有推啦！這件事情一發生，我們南區中心的人就去協助了。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，你們職安署要振作一點啦！第二個問題，我要講外送員，因為COVID-19的時候外送非常非常地興旺，現在已經萎縮了，但是很多年輕人還是在做這個，這個錢一張單從68塊變成40塊，然後現在降到二十幾塊，收入又變少，然後工作時間就拉長，就產生事故。屏東上個月就發生29件車禍等事件，就是因為搶快啊！又有三十幾個人受傷，像這種情況，現在這些外送員，你們有沒有幫他輔導？我們缺工、缺人才，缺那麼多，我是覺得做外送員除了比較自由以外，實在是也很辛苦。"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：你們有輔導、職訓，讓他們去做比較好的工作嘛！"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，這是非典型的工作，其實我們都希望他還是能回到正常的職場來。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以他有任何職訓的要求、專業需要提升，我們都有機制、有計畫可以幫忙他，都沒有問題，不過我知道在疫情期間，因為那時候很多餐旅都有受到影響，很多都裁員，所以有些人進到外送，可是現在好像人數已經降下來，也都回到職場了，因為現在缺工也很嚴重。如果有好的勞動條件、好的收入的話，我想他們也是願意回到職場。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們要輔導啦！你們每個職訓局都做得那麼好，應該要把他們找來好好地訓練。"],["許部長銘春：會的。"],["蘇委員清泉：訓練完，專業人員的薪水都5、6萬，7、8萬，怎麼還讓他……"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：我們的外送員送東西到漁船給外籍漁工，外籍漁工在那邊等，等他送東西去給他吃，那一幕我一輩子都不會忘記，那是很荒唐的事情，臺灣小孩做Uber Eats送東西去，外籍漁工在船上等他送來，好像角色是混淆的，應該是他們送給我們吃才對，這真的是，那一幕你去東港看看，現在每天都有，部長你是東港人，所以你要振作一點，拜託啦！","最後一個，我問你，大家都在罵我們對外籍漁工很苛刻、怎麼樣，我上個禮拜才處理，這個在模里西斯被打的船長，爸爸媽媽都來了，我們找漁業署、外交部、法務部開了一個會。我們一艘漁船出去，只有船長跟大副是臺灣人，其他船就到菲律賓、到印尼去，把漁工載上來，或者是和我們的遠洋漁工出去，整艘船二十多個人都外籍漁工，我們臺灣人只有兩個，他們天天處於危險的情況，你知道那個船長都在船長室裡面把鐵門鎖起來嗎？我是覺得說我們苛刻外籍漁工，這個情況現在已經改善很多，所以我們的船長倒是要跟漁工保持良好的兄弟關係，不然真的什麼時候被打死都不知道，所以我要替這些遠洋的船主還有那個船長講話，不能一面倒地一直罵他們，我覺得沒道理，所以部長，這點你要去……"],["許部長銘春：勞資和諧很重要，雇主跟漁工的權益，我想兩方都要兼顧，這個是應該的。"],["蘇委員清泉：有時候也要幫他們講一些公道話，我看他們被打，被打成這個樣子，我覺得我們的法務部也使不上力，我們外交部也使不上力，跟模里西斯也沒有邦交，所以我們只好找對岸去幫忙，這樣好笑不好笑？所以要加強，好不好？以上。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","作以下宣告：等一下盧縣一委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.08846875,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.69471875,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.727218750000002,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.133468750000006,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.554718750000006,"end":53.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.81159375,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.641593750000006,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.21034375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.38721875,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.19284375000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.88284375,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.05971875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.51534375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.48534375,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.62034375,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.65409375,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.68784375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.70471875000001,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.78909375,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.83971875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.89034375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.94096875000001,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.97471875000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.31221875,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.83909375,"end":99.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.91409375,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.69034375000001,"end":100.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.06159375,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.51659375000001,"end":108.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.29534375,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.31221875000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.95346875000001,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":132.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.78721875,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.85846875000001,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.52909375000002,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.01784375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.17284375,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.79659375,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.29846875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.73284375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.10346875000002,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.39846875,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.67659375000002,"end":163.71846875},{"speaker":"SP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送來撒棄"},{"start":393.884,"end":414.149,"text":"這個就是說有關於職災的像事情平常的這個執行當然在地方政府那我們勞動部不僅監督也會協助那就是說職災的預防或者職災的這個一些處理都是中央地方一起來合作不管哪個地方"},{"start":414.329,"end":421.714,"text":"對啦我覺得這樣推來推去也沒有用啦沒有意思啦我們看到的是不需要不需要發生對啦你們自然是要更盡力的啦好第二個問題我要講外送員因為COVID-19的時候外送非常非常的興旺現在已經"},{"start":437.714,"end":440.176,"text":"二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":462.478,"end":468.343,"text":"再來三十幾人受傷像這種你們現在這些外送員你們有沒有幫他輔導"},{"start":470.12,"end":495.647,"text":"我們缺工、缺人才、缺那麼多我是覺得做這種外送員實在是…那主流藝工也很辛苦的你有那個…幫人…幫人輔導、執訓讓他們去更好工作嘛其實報告委員我們都希望這個非典的工作我們都希望他還是回到正常的職場來啦所以他有任何執訓的要求專業需要提升我們都有機制、有計畫可以幫忙他都沒有問題"},{"start":496.727,"end":520.56,"text":"都沒有問題不過我知道是在疫情期間因為很多那時候參旅都沒有受到影響所以很多都裁員或什麼所以有些進到外送可是現在好像人數已經降下來回到職場因為現在缺工也很嚴重那如果好的勞動條件那有這樣的一個這個好的"},{"start":521.5,"end":524.681,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":539.275,"end":565.896,"text":"那個外送員送到那個漁船給外籍漁工外籍漁工你要等你送東西來我吃那一幕我一輩子都不會忘記很荒唐的事情台灣孩子做Uber送東西來外籍漁工在餐廳等他站起來好像角色是混淆的應該是他們送給我們吃才對這個真的是那一幕你去東港看看你東港看真的有 每天都有"},{"start":568.098,"end":591.39,"text":"所以部長,你每天人要盡力,拜託最後一個我問你,這個外籍移工大家都在罵罵我們對外籍移工很苛刻啦怎麼樣啦,我要上個禮拜我才處理我們這個摩里西斯被打的船長爸爸媽媽都來我們叫漁業署、外交部、法務部開一個會"},{"start":594.613,"end":613.86,"text":"欸!我們一條漁船出去只有船長跟大副是台灣人其他船就到菲律賓到印尼去把漁工上來或者是我們的遠洋漁工然後出去整隻船二十五個二十五個都外籍漁工我們的台灣人只有兩個"},{"start":616.107,"end":641.737,"text":"他們天天處於危險的情況你知道那個船長都在船長室裡面捨射我是覺得說我們在苛刻外籍移工這個現在的情況已經改善很多所以倒是我們的船長要跟移工要保持良好的兄弟關係不然真的好像怕死了還不知道所以我要拿這個演員"},{"start":646.419,"end":666.124,"text":"這傳屬還有那個船長替他們講講話不能一面倒地常常在罵人家的 我覺得沒道理所以部長這點你要去...對 我們勞資和諧很重要啦 僱主跟這個移工權 我想兩方都要兼顧啦有時候也要跟他們講一些公道話"},{"start":667.004,"end":682.9,"text":"所以我看他們被打打成這個樣子我覺得我們法務部也使不上力我們外交部也使不上力阿牟利西斯也不幫教所以我們只好找對岸去幫忙這樣好笑不好笑所以要加強好不好以上謝謝蘇青權委員"}]}},{"id":"150328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150328","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b4f33bba8936577558506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b0ca6921d57b82b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:07:45 - 10:19:19","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":694,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:19:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:07:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時7分）謝謝主席。有請金管會黃主委、李懷仁次長以及法務部的代表。"],["主席：請黃主委、李次長及法務部黃謀信黃常次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，我想就教你一個問題，因為在實務上本席曾經有接獲到這樣的個案，當民眾告知被詐騙的時候，銀行還堅持把錢轉出去，它的理由是因為有一個爭議款項的授權書來自國際組織的規定，以OTP作為最高的認證的方式。","但就本席的理解，2019年的時候，歐盟就把OTP的部分，也就是所謂動態密碼的部分，把它視為安全的身分認證，但是銀行還是堅持這樣的處理，那爾後類似這種詐騙行為的話，是不是有可能要尊重一下存款戶本身權益的保障？只要銀行端確認過這個是存款戶當事人的話，就應該保障他的存款，而不應該匯出，這兩個之間你認為是銀行堅持它的OTP認定比較重要，還是存款戶的主張比較重要？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，一般國際卡VISA、Mastercard跟JCB都會用OTP做身分的確認，所以OTP是非常有確定這個交易是不是完成的一個重要的指標，如果OTP已經都回去了，所以應該就是確認這個交易是完成了。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果是這樣子的話，可是當前還沒有匯款出去的時候，這裡還有一個moment的時間點耶！有沒有可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想委員您垂詢的這是一個個案，包括今天我們在報告中都有提到，特別對OTP來的時候，怎麼樣讓我們的消費者知道這個OTP內容是什麼，用中文展示，提醒他們OTP的重要性，那您關心這個個案，我想是不是……"],["郭委員國文：使用方的部分啦！一個部分是銀行方的部分，要如何配合存款戶的要求，好不好？","另外一個部分，一樣是帳戶的問題，帳戶的部分，我想這個個案，本席也私下跟主委提過這個相關的問題，也就是說，當我們發現這個警示帳戶的時候，在沒有任何財務往來的必要性，或者是商品、勞務提供的情況底下，有某一帳戶得到不同來源的款項會被視為警示帳戶，但是往往這個警示帳戶經過檢察官不起訴處分、司法背書之後，它就可以依此要求銀行端來予以讓它提領這帳戶裡頭的金額。這個部分在實務上的判例，我想先就教於法務部，我知道有一些檢察官會要求把款項還給當事人，再進行不起訴的處分，是不是有如此？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果犯罪所得被扣押的話，按照訴訟法規定，如果沒有保存的必要，在整個案件的進行當中，它是隨時可以返還的。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！那就是變成合法車手啦！可是因為他基本上有一個不當占有的可能性，他也沒有提供勞務，他也沒有提供任何的商品，居然天上會有錢掉下來，而且不只一個帳戶，好像天選帳戶一樣，哪有這麼好的事情？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個……"],["郭委員國文：在你沒有辦法證明它是一個不合法的帳戶──那是屬於刑事上的範圍，民事上還有糾紛的情況底下，你就背書讓他通過，這合理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，發還的前提是檢察官能夠確認他的單純，他的被害人他能夠確認，而且訴訟上他已經沒有繼續保管的必要……"],["郭委員國文：對，那個是在刑事上的部分嘛！可是他就是可以拿去跟銀行要求……"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯，如果委員提的狀況他沒有辦法確認的話，檢察官不會輕易發還，他會透過另外的訴訟程序去做另外的處理。"],["郭委員國文：那還沒有訴訟程序的時候……"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官他不介入民事的紛爭。"],["郭委員國文：帳戶的持有人就會拿去銀行端說我要提領這個金額的主張啊！問題就出現在這個moment，等到我再提民事的時候，錢都已經不知道到哪裡去了啊！所以我是說在實務上，你們可以跟檢察官告知類似的情事，應該採取對相關當事人有利的一個處理方式，譬如你先把款項返還，我再給你予以不起訴的一個判決，類似這種情況底下，實務上你們在法務部可以先處理嘛！可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個機制檢察官運用非常廣泛，我們現在有被害人返還他相關的犯罪所得，檢察官可以給他做不起訴處分或相關的輕的處理，我們有一些裁量上的處理，可以讓被告先返還他的犯罪所得給被害人。"],["郭委員國文：對，問題是現在案件不同，有些有、有些沒有，問題出在這邊，實務上我請法務部回去跟檢察官叮嚀一下，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒有問題。"],["郭委員國文：另外，主委，在存款帳戶及其疑似不法或顯屬異常交易管理辦法第十一條的部分，可不可能把它修正成說，要求在警示帳戶當中，雖然經過不起訴，應該先返還不當得利才予以解凍，有沒有可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為警示帳戶這些都是由檢調單位去確定……"],["郭委員國文：對，但是在銀行端的部分啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在法律的位階不夠高。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我是說這個辦法上是貴會所草擬的嘛！在這個部分能夠加註嚴格一點，也就是說，在雙方還有爭議的情況底下、未解除的情況底下，不應該把這一筆資金予以解凍嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，委員這樣好不好？您垂詢的部分，我們正在修這個辦法……"],["郭委員國文：你們正在修辦法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：把您垂詢的部分，看有沒有可能放進去。"],["郭委員國文：對，把它放進去，因為那個爭議事項尚未解除，你要保障當事人嘛！","另外一個部分，當人頭帳戶被抓到的時候，五年內一天只能提領1萬，這是正確的，應該給他適時的、適當的做一個處罰。可是他開戶的話，是每家銀行都可以開戶，臺灣還有本土的銀行，還有39家，那這39家來提領的話，也有39萬之多，更何況開戶的所有人，只要他是曾是賣過帳戶的或什麼樣的原因帳戶，他有沒有可能納入聯徵中心的一個徵信範圍當中？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我們瞭解一下，我記得告誡戶應該沒有那麼多的權利到每個銀行去開戶，我們瞭解一下。"],["郭委員國文：但有沒有納入聯徵的可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們再瞭解，就您垂詢的部分我們來瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：麻煩一下好不好？你思考一下這個可能性好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：後面的部分，就要請數位部跟金管會，金管會跟數位部當中有一個平臺，這個聯繫平臺當中，主要是針對數位詐騙的問題，好像我們在整個投信投顧法第七十條之後，投資的部分要實名制，實名制的部分是主要以合法的投顧信業者為主。問題是有一些下這些廣告的人不是合法的投顧信業者，出在於說非合法投顧信業者它不用採實名制的話，以致於現階段整個詐騙金額當中的第一名，就是投資詐騙，高達47.49億，而且詐騙案的比例高達59.52%，就幾乎六成。打詐中心也對外說，真的詐騙的金額已經高達臺灣GDP的0.9，去年我們經濟成長率不過是1.31%而已，就占了0.9%，0.9%去掉GDP我們就不可能保2了嘛！也就是詐騙金額的問題是如此之重大，Meta、Google以及Yahoo都是只有信貸、就業、住屋、社會、選舉跟政治的部分有實名制，為什麼投資沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們今天報告中也有講，我們1月初開始Google跟Meta……Meta在6月都儘量要採用實名制。數位部這邊也有一些措施，是不是……"],["郭委員國文：來，數位部補充說明一下。"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，電子簽章法目前正在大院討論跟審查，電子簽章法通過以後，我們也會跟金管會還有中選會優先推動包括您剛剛提到的信貸、就業以及選舉、政治的廣告，一定要用電子簽章法去確認是真實的業者才能投放這件事情。"],["郭委員國文：打詐專法就本席所理解，業管範圍以後就交給數發部去進行業管，就我理解的部分，修法方向是如此啦！問題是在於法還沒有通過之前，這個比例還是非常高，你們有沒有其他作法？"],["李次長懷仁：委員不好意思，您剛剛的題目可不可以再……前面我沒有聽清楚，您剛剛說打詐專法是數位部主管，我沒有聽懂您的意思。"],["郭委員國文：打詐中心啦！目前打詐專法的部分，未來的業管單位，關於數位平臺部分的主責單位是數發部啦，就我理解是如此。"],["李次長懷仁：數位經濟平臺是我們沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：以後是你們去掌管嘛！"],["李次長懷仁：現在其實就是，數位經濟平臺本來就是我們。"],["郭委員國文：平臺啦，我是說以後包括這些實名制的業務都是你們在掌管的，你知道嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：要不要實名制這個部分還在討論，因為強化的KYC不一定代表實名制，這兩個還是有程度的差別，實名制是等於對外介入，但是KYC……"],["郭委員國文：對，但強化KYC的部分呢？"],["李次長懷仁：強化KYC我們會要求……"],["郭委員國文：本來就是最重要的一個依據啊！"],["李次長懷仁：對。"],["郭委員國文：這樣才能有究責的空間嘛，才有依據，不是嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：對，強化KYC目的是究責，但不一定是實名制，實名制已經是揭露的概念……"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝李次長。接下來我最後的時間要請教一下黃主委，黃主委，其實所有詐騙的關鍵，最後還是在洗錢，現在洗錢最多的管道還是在虛擬貨幣的部分。虛擬貨幣我知道您要納管，但是你要納管目前遵循的依則雖然有國內、外，但是據我所知，目前只有國內、沒有國外的幣商進來，沒有任何一個交易所進來。另外一個部分，你以後的專法也還有一段時間，但是依照目前我個人認為還是有兩塊的漏洞，一個部分是海外交易的部分，就海外幣商的部分怎麼處理，你就只管國內不管海外嗎？另外OTC的部分怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有關個人幣商部分，將來大家討論會在打詐法，或是在洗防法裡面去明文規定，這個時間會比我們平臺的專法要更提前，所以這部分應該會做一些處理。當然我們也請投資人，一定要跟在國內向主管機關申報洗防的平臺去做交易。"],["郭委員國文：好，平臺的部分有它的牌照啊！有沒有可能個人幣商有分流管理的方式，也有一個牌照的可能性來罰款？"],["黃主任委員天牧：個人幣商如果他要做這個業務，本來也應該要向金管會來申請，其實我們曾經罰過一家。"],["郭委員國文：有罰過一家了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有罰過一家，他沒有申報洗防，然後我們就罰了。"],["郭委員國文：對，我的意思是說，這個部分有沒有可能分流管理？有沒有可能朝這個方向？例如場外交易，防洗錢的猖獗……"],["黃主任委員天牧：管理上應該都是同樣的……"],["郭委員國文：面對面的啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想，券商跟個人的部分應該是會有一些差別啦！"],["郭委員國文：有差別，對啊！因為公司所要去列舉的這些文件，跟個人交易要列舉的文件成本是不同的，不應該等同辦理，應該分別處理嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在規劃的時候，會參考召委的垂詢去處理。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請賴惠員賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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這個辦法上我是說這個辦法上是貴會所朝你的嘛我是說在這個11點的部分能不能加注嚴格一點也就是說在雙方還有爭議的情況底下未解除的情況底下不應該把這一筆資金予以解凍嘛"},{"start":318.041,"end":336.053,"text":"委員這樣好不好,您追尋的部分我們正在修這個辦法,看有沒有可能放進去。對,把他放進去,因為那個爭議事項尚未解除,你要保障當事人嘛。那另外一個部分,當人頭贊護你被抓到的時候啊,你五年內,"},{"start":336.914,"end":359.824,"text":"一天只能提領一萬這是正確的應該給他適當的做一個處罰可是他開戶的話是每家銀行都可以開戶台灣還有本土的銀行還有39家那我是39家我們一來提領的話也有39萬之多更何況這個開戶式的所有人只要他是曾經是賣過賬戶的或什麼樣的原因賬戶他有沒有可能納入連徵中心當中一個徵信範圍當中"},{"start":362.348,"end":383.769,"text":"這個我們了解一下,我記得告誡戶應該沒有那麼多的權利到每一個銀行去開戶,我們了解一下但是有沒有可能納入廉政的可能?我們再瞭解,在您一隨學的部分我們要瞭解思考一下這個可能性好不好?好,謝謝後面的部分就要請數位部跟那個金管會金管會跟數位部當中有一個平台"},{"start":385.991,"end":401.492,"text":"這個聯繫平台當中主要是針對這個數位詐騙的問題好像我們在整個投資投顧法70條之後投資的部分要實名制但是實名制的部分是主要以合法的投顧性業者為主"},{"start":402.153,"end":417.44,"text":"但問題是有一些下這些廣告的人不是合法的投顧興業者出在於說非合法投興業者他不用踩實名制的話以至於現階段的整個詐騙金額當中的第一名就是投資詐騙高達47.49億而且詐騙案的這個比例高達59.52就幾乎六成"},{"start":424.463,"end":425.404,"text":"打擊中心也對外說"},{"start":454.343,"end":454.471,"text":"本集完"},{"start":456.397,"end":484.939,"text":"法務委員我們今天報告中也有講我們1月初開始Google跟MetaMeta在6月都要盡量要採用實名制那數位部這邊有一些措施那數位部來補充說明一下跟委員報告那個電子簽商法目前正在大院送這個討論跟審查那電子簽商法通過以後我們也會跟這個金管會還有包括州選會優先推動這個包括您剛提到的信貸就業這個包括選舉政治的廣告一定要用電子簽商法確認"},{"start":486.68,"end":489.483,"text":"問題是在於說在法還沒有通過之前這個比例還是非常的高然後你們有沒有其他做法?"},{"start":512.796,"end":530.183,"text":"委員不好意思您剛剛的題目可不可以在前面我沒有聽您剛剛說打詐專法是數位部主管我沒有聽懂打詐中心目前的這個打詐專法的部分未來的業管單位關於這個數位平台的部分的主責單位未來是數發部就我理解的部分是如何數位經濟平台是我們沒有錯"},{"start":530.783,"end":554.92,"text":"現在以後是你們去掌管嗎?現在其實就是我,數位經濟平台本來現在就是我。平台是如此啦,平台啦。我是說以後包括這些實名制的業務都是你們在掌管的,你知道嗎?要不要實名制這個部分還好,因為強化的KYC不一定代表實名制,這還是兩個程度的差別,實名制是等於對外介入,但是KYC…強化KYC的部分呢,就是最重要的一個依據啊,這樣才能有救責的空間嘛,救責依據嘛。"},{"start":556.92,"end":577.185,"text":"謝謝理事長接下來我最後的時間要請教一下黃主委黃主委其實所有的詐騙的關鍵當中最後的關鍵其實還是在於這個洗錢那洗錢的部分現在最多的管道的部分還是在虛擬貨幣的部分那虛擬貨幣的部分我知道你要納管"},{"start":577.685,"end":602.839,"text":"但是你要納管的部分目前的一個遵循的這個一則的部分雖然有國內外但是就我所知的目前只有國內沒有國外的這個這個必商進來沒有任何一個交易的這一個交易所進來另外一個部分你以後的這個專法也還有一段時間但是依照目前我個人認為還是有兩塊的漏洞一個部分是海外交易的部分就海外必商的部分怎麼處理你就只管國內不管海外嗎另外一個部分OTC的部分怎麼處理"},{"start":604.608,"end":630.064,"text":"其實有關個人 B商部分其實將來會在大家在討論在打詐法或是說在洗房法裡面去明文去規定這個時間會比我們的這個平台的專法要更提前所以這部分應該會做一些處理當然我們也請那個投資人一定要跟在國內向主管機關申報洗房的這個平台去做交易"},{"start":630.704,"end":657.304,"text":"平台的部分有他的牌照有沒有可能個人弊傷的時候有可能分流管理的方式也有一個牌照的可能性個人弊傷如果他要做這個業務本來也應該要向金管會來申請其實我們曾經罰過一家有罰過一張了好像罰過一家他沒有申報洗房然後我們就罰了就這樣子對 那我意思是說這個部分有沒有可能分流管理有沒有可能這個方向"},{"start":658.465,"end":658.565,"text":"主席"},{"start":691.952,"end":694.207,"text":"現在質詢請你,奈會員、奈委員"}]}},{"id":"150327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150327","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b7e2dd9eff81b49e1e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:56:50 - 10:10:39","影片長度":"00:13:49","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":829,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:10:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:56:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時57分）主席好。有請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，職安署跟前年成立的職災預防及重建中心的業務有沒有重疊之處？"],["許部長銘春：不一樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：不一樣？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，職災預防及重建中心打算在高雄設立職業健康及重建之家，新聞報導說最快113年，請問部長，現在這個計畫的進度到哪裡？何時會完成？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們本來原先是大概這個月要開始做一些裝修，結果發現那個承租的房子是歷史建築，因為歷史建築在裝修的程序上比較麻煩，所以我們現在這部分先暫停，另外再另覓新址，也有先找到兩個點。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問一下，設置重建之家最主要想要達成什麼樣的目的？您可不可以簡單具體講一下？"],["許部長銘春：我們希望就是在我們的勞工重建部分能夠給予更專業的協助，即工作的重建，就是說他重返職場工作的重建，希望給予他更多的資源協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：所謂更多的資源協助，目前已經有36家職能復健的專責醫院，20家強化訓練機構，還有22個縣市政府的職災個案管理、專業服務人員，還有管理服務資訊系統，也有連結勞發署的職業訓練、就業服務、職業輔導評量的系統，所以勞工如果有需要可以直接透過這個系統轉介跟追蹤，現有的機制，醫院、訓練機構都有，連之後的職業訓練、就業輔導系統都有系統連結。請問哪裡不足？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分，因為高雄是屬於勞工比較多的地方，建立這個重建之家主要是針對在工作的重建，希望有一個專責的單位直接來協助，剛剛所講的那個……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你剛剛說到高雄，你在高雄做這個重建之家，不過我看勞動部的資料，36家專責醫院中，高雄的專責醫院就有5家，也是各縣市之冠，訓練機構也有1家，所以資源並不缺，請問設立重建之家的主責是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這些專責醫院或者網絡醫院，主要是在醫療的復健，是就他身體的健康……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個訓練機構也有1家，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：然後我們這個部分是比較針對專業，針對他工作上如何重建，讓他能夠回復他的工作職能。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我請問你，這個評估有沒有評估的依據或標準？然後你預計要花多少錢、服務多少人數？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然，我們重建中心這邊有經過討論，有專業的一些評估，不過，你剛剛問的那些數據，我是不是會後再提供給您？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我只是覺得很好奇，為何不善用現行指定的專責機構？如果資源不足，就多邀請一些醫院跟機構來評鑑，多增加一些指定醫院、機構，讓這些醫院跟機構都可以就近服務，不是更好？你特別再成立這個東西，對我們來講，它就是一個疊床架屋，因為你講都講不清楚，它到底跟現有的機制有什麼很不一樣的地方，或是你可以補足哪些現有不足的地方？所以現有機制如果都可以處理，為什麼要浪費公帑去蓋一個蚊子館，甚至你也講不出來到底要花多少錢、要服務多少人。"],["許部長銘春：沒有蓋啦，就是先承租，然後去把這個重建之家針對職災勞工在工作上重建所需要的一些協助，由這個重建之家來提供。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我懂，但是你講的都很像空話，就是沒有很具體的回答到底跟現有機制相比，你可以補足哪些地方……"],["許部長銘春：委員，我們再做一些分析給你，因為這個也都滿專業的，我應該讓專業的人來提供專業的說明給委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，請會後提供相關的報告說明，給我分析好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，勞動部所屬的勞研所，會發出工安警訊，而且還配置專門的官網頁面，把最新的因應時節變化之下，最有可能的種種各類工安風險來對外發布。請問部長，如果企業、工廠和這些事業單位有注意到我們勞動部中央所發布的工安警訊，是否就能夠降低職災的發生機率？"],["許部長銘春：這就是我們的提醒，讓這些單位……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我說如果他們有注意到，然後也有去看，也有去接收這樣訊息，是不是能夠降低，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們希望達到這樣的目的。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長也認為發布工安警訊也是為了降低發生的機率，對吧？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那請教部長，我們的工安警訊除了放在所屬的官網上，還有沒有其他的宣傳或宣傳管道呢？"],["許部長銘春：我請業務單位說明。"],["李所長柏昌：謝謝委員指導，我們大概一般就是在官網以外，像我們跟職安署配合，或是跟縣政府的一些配合，我們在宣導會的時候都會提供相關的資訊給他們作為腳本。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們會請縣市政府幫忙宣傳？"],["李所長柏昌：對、會，宣導會都會，他們會來跟我們要資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK！好。所以我可以確定，除了事業單位之外，地方政府的勞動局處或是勞檢單位會依照你們工安警訊去幫忙宣傳，對嗎？應該也要幫忙宣傳，對不對？"],["李所長柏昌：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，有沒有甚至要針對中央所預警的產業，去加強勞檢的頻率或是增加勞檢的內容呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好，我是職安署署長，有關這個水蒸汽爆炸預防的部分，國內外都當作是蠻重要的爆炸預防機制，這次這個個案，看起來它已經營運了很多年，而那天早上的製程發生的狀況，直接是液態鋁液接觸到水，理論上這個製程應該是固態鋁錠之後，才能做水的 cooling down，所以就這個個案的瞭解和調查，就爆炸預防的部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思，請直接回答我……"],["鄒署長子廉：會加強。"],["廖委員偉翔：會嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：是、是。"],["廖委員偉翔：有針對這個預警的產業會加強勞檢的頻率，對不對？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["許部長銘春：是、會。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席看到我們的勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在2022年10月有發布一個預防熔融高熱物相關作業與水接觸引起水蒸汽爆炸的工安警訊，它也提醒了大家，這樣子的熔融高熱物相關作業中的熔融鋁等，它的作業環境附近常常會出現非預期的積水或是金屬碎片中含有水分，如果操作不慎或機械故障，以致熔融高熱物與水接觸，則水就會快速的加熱汽化，體積會急速膨脹1,700倍，引起物理性的水蒸汽爆炸，而且威力很大，會引發大範圍的火災！我想請問部長，這則工安警訊有沒有給各個地方政府？"],["李所長柏昌：這個工安警訊是為了因應國外有一些相類似的案件……"],["廖委員偉翔：你只要回答我有沒有給，因為你剛剛是說有，對不對？剛剛你前面的回答是你們這些工安警訊都有跟各個地方政府、縣市政府講，對不對？按照你們講的，地方政府也有義務要宣導，或者依據這份警訊去修改產業的勞檢項目，請教部長，高雄有沒有修改勞檢項目？工安警訊發布後，高雄市的勞工局有沒有去宣導，以及高雄市政府這兩年有沒有針對鋁這個產業勞檢，有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們可能要進一步瞭解高雄市政府的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你講，從一個地方就可以看出你們根本沒有盡到督導責任，而且高雄市政府的勞工局也是螺絲掉滿地，勞動部勞研所並非隨便亂發工安警訊，所以我想你也不會否認你下屬單位的用心研究，但是你知道高雄市政府連最基本的轉知、宣導責任都沒有落實嗎？部長，你看，事實上，高雄市政府為了應付中央，為了讓中央知道高雄市有在做所謂表面上的工安警訊分工宣導，不過只是開了專門頁面之後，實際上卻已經從2022年開始就停擺至今，有沒有盡到宣導，有沒有盡到監督的職責？你們是沒有的，甚至過去高雄市政府也沒有如實地把勞動部職安所的工安警訊帶到地方發布。請問部長，高雄市政府是不是在這次佳豐鋁業2死6傷的悲劇中，確實有該宣導而未宣導的行政責任？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分我可能要進一步再瞭解，因為它的這個網頁雖然沒有顯示出來，但實質上有沒有去做宣導，這恐怕都還……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是工安警訊應該是對全國服務的地方，對不對？如果連這個地方都沒有做到，是不是也是一個問題呢？"],["許部長銘春：所以這個要去瞭解一下，因為平常這些工安的座談或講習……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在要去瞭解就代表你平常沒有盡到督導之責，因為高雄市放水，難道你們勞動部也要佛系把關嗎？這麼重大的工安職災，中央跟地方都沒有人負責嗎？從星期五發生到現在，我想請問……"],["許部長銘春：不是這樣子的，因為各地方政府都會去做宣導，像這個個案……"],["廖委員偉翔：你既然都做了工安警訊，結果這個地方又不放，到底是做開心的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，我們的工安警訊……"],["廖委員偉翔：勞動部是不是應該要專案督導一下高雄市政府呢？你以前也當過高雄市政府副市長，請問你在高雄市任職期間，高雄市政府的職業安全措施有這麼鬆散嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不會啦！報告委員，其實勞動部檢查機關跟地方政府之間都有監督檢查的機制。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我想要提醒你，這個東西就是公開資訊，大家隨時上網都可以看得到的東西。"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是……"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣重大的職災，如果都沒有人要下臺負責，難道勞動部和高雄市政府也是今天公祭、明天忘記嗎？我想要提醒你的是這個，因為明明就已經有做得這麼好的工安警訊，結果居然還發生這種悲劇，我真的很替這2死6傷感到很難過。","最後一個問題，部長，最近央行升息，勞動部有開辦多項的政策性貸款，例如微型創業鳳凰貸款、就業保險失業者創業貸款、失業中高齡者及高齡者創業貸款，這些政策性貸款都是採計中華郵政股份有限公司兩年期定期儲金機動利率計算，這也代表會受到這次升息的影響。行政院副院長在3月22日召開跨部會會議，決議由政府全額補貼相關的升息利息，但是我發現剛剛這三項有關於勞工的政策性貸款都沒有納入裡面，所以你們是不是要向行政院爭取因應升息衝擊的利息補貼，或是由勞動部內部另外辦理因應升息衝擊的還款展延，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：勞工紓困貸款主要是針對疫情期間受影響的勞工，因為那時候受到的影響最大，所以所有的升息已經升了5次，其實我們就補貼了4次，就是針對因為受疫情影響特別艱困的，其他的這些貸款的影響很低，我們都有充分評估過，因為其實平常就有補貼他們，所以升息對他們的影響是比較小的。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席請你回去再次討論一下，因為他們都是比較弱勢的勞工，如果影響不大，那是不是也納入這一次的補貼的方案裡面呢？"],["許部長銘春：像委員剛剛講的鳳凰創業，像這樣的升息辦法，他一年才增加896元而已。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為行政院副院長也是跨部會召開會議說希望由政府全額補貼。"],["許部長銘春：其實我們在討論的時候都有先評估過。"],["主席：我打岔一下，是不是請部長會後再向委員說明溝通，是不是提供資料給廖委員？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：請蘇委員清泉發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.15159375,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.99096875,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.90596875,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.52471875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.55409375,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.58346875,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.05596875,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.410343750000003,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.01284375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.67034375,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.36596875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.66096875,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.88846875,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.66034375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.06909375,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.094093750000006,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.77284375000001,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.42159375,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.54721875,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.50784375,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.26721875,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.51159375,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.82284375,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.84784375000001,"end":107.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.64284375000001,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.70409375000001,"end":123.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.12971875000001,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.68659375000001,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.80846875,"end":129.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.01471875000001,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.45284375,"end":142.70909375000002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down"},{"start":418.49,"end":421.292,"text":"本席看到我們的勞動及職業安全衛生所研究所在2022年的10月有發布一個"},{"start":440.067,"end":455.175,"text":"預防熔融高熱物相關作業與水接觸引起水蒸氣爆炸的公安警訊那他還提醒了大家這樣子的熔融高熱物相關作業中的熔融鋁等他的作業環境常常附近會"},{"start":456.115,"end":482.627,"text":"常常會出現非預期的積水或是金屬碎片中含有水分如果操作不順或機械故障以致熔融高熱物與水接觸則水就會快速的加熱氣化體積會急速的膨脹約1700倍引起物理性的水蒸氣爆炸而且它威力很大會引發更大範圍的火災喔那麼我想要請問部長這則公安警訊有沒有給各個地方政府"},{"start":486.606,"end":512.743,"text":"這個公安警訊是因為因應那個國外有一些相類似的案例沒有你就回答我有沒有給嘛因為你剛剛是說有嘛對不對剛剛你前面的回答是說你們這些公安警訊是有各個地方政府縣市政府都有講嘛對不對所以地方政府剛剛照你們的講也有義務要宣導或者依據這份警訊去修改這個產業的勞檢項目請教部長高雄有沒有去修改勞檢項目公安警訊發布後高雄市的勞工局有沒有去宣導"},{"start":513.973,"end":532.423,"text":"以及高雄市政府這兩年有沒有針對鋁這個產業去勞檢?有嗎?這個我們可能要進一步了解高雄市政府的部分好部長我跟你講一個地方就看到你們根本沒有盡到督導責任而且我們的高雄市政府的這個勞動局也是螺絲吊滿地"},{"start":534.076,"end":558.116,"text":"你們勞動部勞研所並非隨便亂發公安警訊所以我想你也不會否認你下屬單位的用心研究但是你知道高雄市政府連最基本的轉資宣導責任都沒有落實嗎部長你看喔事實上高雄市政府為了應付中央為了讓中央知道高雄市有在做所謂的表面上的公安警訊分工宣導不過只是開了專門頁面之後實際上卻已經從2022年開始都停擺至今了"},{"start":563.664,"end":584.029,"text":"有沒有進到監督的職責?你們是沒有的。甚至在過去,高雄市政府也沒有如實的把勞動部職安所的公安警訊帶到地方來發布。請問部長,高雄市政府因此是不是要在這次加封旅業二死六傷的悲劇中,確實就是有該宣導而未宣導的行政責任?"},{"start":585.129,"end":604.21,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我可能要進一步再瞭解因為他這個網頁雖然沒有顯示出來但是他實質上有沒有去做宣導這恐怕都還做講習但是他的公安警訊應該就是一個對全國公布的地方嘛 對不對那如果連這個地方都沒有做到是不是也是一個"},{"start":605.151,"end":621.289,"text":"問題呢?報告委員所以這個要了解一下因為平常這種公安的這些座檔或長刑就代表你平常沒有盡到督導之責囉因為高雄市放水難道你們勞動部也要佛系把關嗎?這麼重大的公安職災中央跟地方都沒有人負責嗎?"},{"start":623.778,"end":627.741,"text":"從星期五發生到現在,我想請問,勞動部是不是應該要專案督導一下我們高雄市政府呢?你以前也當過高雄市政府的副市長"},{"start":645.509,"end":665.247,"text":"請問高雄市你在任職期間高雄市政府的職業安全措施有這麼鬆散嗎?不會啦因為報告委員我們其實勞動部我們這個檢查機關跟地方政府之間都有監督檢查的基礎沒有我想要提醒你這個東西就是公開資訊大家隨時上網都可以看得到的東西但是我的意思是說你"},{"start":666.468,"end":685.138,"text":"這樣重大的職災如果都沒有人要下台負責難道勞動部跟高雄市政府今天也是要今天公祭明天旺祭嗎?我想要提醒你的是這個因為明明就已經做了這麼好的公安警訓結果居然還發生這種悲劇我覺得我真的很替這二死六傷感到很難過"},{"start":688.317,"end":705.846,"text":"最後一個部長我只是想要儘速的在幫我們的這個最近我們的央行升息喔勞動部有開辦多項的政策性貸款例如我們的微型創業鳳凰貸款還有我們就業保險失業者創業貸款和失業中高齡者及高齡者的創業貸款喔"},{"start":706.986,"end":734.074,"text":"那這些政策性的貸款也都有採寄到中華郵政股份有限公司兩年期的這個定期儲金機動利率的計算這也代表著會受到這次升息的影響然後我們的行政院副院長在3月22號有召開跨部會議決議由政府權而補貼這個相關的升息的利息但是我發現剛剛這三項有關於勞工的政策性貸款都沒有納入裡面"},{"start":735.714,"end":745.873,"text":"所以我在想你們是不是要跟行政院爭取因應升息衝擊的利息補貼或者是勞動部內部另外辦理因應升息衝擊的還款展言可以嗎?"},{"start":748.52,"end":775.342,"text":"這個部分其實因為這個勞工紓困貸款主要是那時候針對疫情期間受影響的勞工因為那時候影響最大所以在所有的升息裡面已經升了五次了已經五次其實我們就補貼了四次就是針對那個因為疫情受影響特別他應該特別艱困那其他的其實這些貸款他們是影響很低這個都有充分評估過"},{"start":776.564,"end":782.76,"text":"因為這些補貼其實平常就有補貼他們所以對他們這個升息的影響是比較小的"},{"start":783.649,"end":806.211,"text":"好那我可以請本席再請您回去再重再一次討論一下因為他們都是比較弱勢的勞工是不是可以如果你說影響不大那是不是給納入這一次的補貼的方案裡面呢對這個向委員那個像那個剛剛您講的那個鳳鴻創業齁他一年喔一年才像這樣的升息辦法他增加869塊而已一年才增加"},{"start":807.933,"end":815.04,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論"}]}},{"id":"150326","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150326","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005ba866b88e58fe6bc90ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a64ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:08:41 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10:17:29","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":528,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:17:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:08:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時8分）主席好，現在有請我們國發會龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員超明：龔主委，上個禮拜謝謝你到苗栗，終於看到你在苗栗出現。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝委員讓我們可以去瞭解基層。"],["陳委員超明：所談到的那幾個計畫，我會麻煩你全力支持，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：苗栗需要發展、需要建設。今天會議的主題主要是談到我們各種基金的發展情形，你在報告裡面說國家發展基金的營運成效尚屬良好，從108年到112年，報告出來，112年國發基金盈餘是289億。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：但是我覺得這是前人種樹後人乘涼，你們後期的投資收益都不大，主要的收益來自於台積電，台積電在112年度占了你們整體收入的180億，將近6成，所以國發基金我想改為台積電基金比較有名，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是啦，委員，因為還有另外的4%、100多億也是其他公司所貢獻的，所以其他公司表現也是非常好，我們當初支持它也是有得到回報，這100多億我們也滾動式再投新創……"],["陳委員超明：我現在跟你講，你有三種投資，一個直接投資，這個大概很久了，第二個是創投投資，創投投資你現在一共找了107家創投來投資。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：然後有一種天使投資是比較微小型的，讓年輕人有一個發展的機會，這個非常好，但是你很rough的算，如果真的要經營績效，你要把這幾年直接投入的狀況，包括從幾年投入、目前的狀況、財務報表、年收益多少，還有到現在為止，如果有上市的話，目前股價是多少？包括創投很重要，在你那個部分占了一個很大的部分，從這裡面你好好把每一家創投公司，為什麼要投資那一家公司的財務報表要一清二楚的做出來，它主要的業務是什麼，你也要每一次做一個報表天天盯，沒有的話你就找創投嘛，找我投資怎麼會虧錢？你要知道生意就是這樣的，天使創投當然需要一個時間的培養。","國發基金在臺灣產業界占了一個非常重要的地位，我希望你這次也要找出新的東西，憑良心講，投資事業有賺有虧，但是前瞻的眼光非常重要，尤其投資創投，你一定要設定很嚴，你要追著這幾個創投，創投公司能帶給你很大的績效就給他們做，這是一個責任的問題啊！你判斷它的精準度，而不是拿來做人情的啦！我點出來你就知道了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：從來沒有這樣子，我跟委員報告，創投的部分因為它有週期，大概就是7加3……"],["陳委員超明：週期每一年的報表出來……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["陳委員超明：尤其……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們會看，因為當初……"],["陳委員超明：我們要看這個，我們才能放心啦！好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。它當初承諾我們是說……"],["陳委員超明：因為資金很雄厚，大家說國發基金投入就表示是好的公司，你也讓我們相信國發基金在你主持之下是非常好啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：這是第一點。上一次我跟你講中東歐投資基金2億美金，融資10億美金，我要一個報表，我要瞭解你們中東歐投資在哪一個行業，它未來的前景是怎麼樣，讓我們仔細瞭解，但是我記得上次的工作報告完畢，我要這個資料，你們也沒有送過來，我再來提醒你一次。","今天我看了一個新聞，澳洲已經要在東南亞投資一個基金13億美金，我從報章雜誌看到你說明年才要成立基金，還是東南亞投資基金，是今年還是明年？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：東南亞投資基金今年會成立。"],["陳委員超明：今年會成立？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["陳委員超明：規模大概有多大？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：30億台幣，第一階段。"],["陳委員超明：30億台幣喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["陳委員超明：還不到1億美金，人家是13億，你臺灣這麼有錢，武器少買一些，布局好。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：武器少買一些，萬一有戰爭我們還有後援，東南亞投資多一點，你1億美金要跟人家比？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，是第一階段啦！我講的是第一階段，然後是第二階段。"],["陳委員超明：新南向政策已經花很多錢了，東南亞投資基金只有1億，好像我們太小家子氣，這樣也發揮不了效用。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這是第一階段。"],["陳委員超明：1億美金要給誰用？要怎麼用？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果用錢的話……"],["陳委員超明：還是只有綠色執政才能用？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有這樣的事啦！是所有的企業……"],["陳委員超明：那是我講的，你講當然沒有這樣的事，我們瞭解很多，只是不想講，生意的投資大家都是朋友，我們都希望投資能賺錢，你也讓我們確實瞭解，我絕對不會隨便說說的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：東南亞投資，人家是13億美金，你1億美金，去了也不大方，人家說臺灣錢淹腳目，要在這個地方……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：基金可能性質會有一點不一樣，因為我們推動的主要是相關的數位建設。"],["陳委員超明：我一直強調一點，關於地方創生，地方創生有一個中區的輔導中心，但是地方創生，我一直強調你要弄一個規劃費給地方，有縣市級的、有鄉鎮級的、有培力工作站，這樣做出來才有用，而且培力工作站，我現在看過在開的那一些都是煙火式的，報紙上寫得非常好，3年都倒店，不然你去找一下，有開跟沒開一樣。所以對於這塊，我說最起碼，龔主委，你的人下去看了覺得可以，規劃給他們，他們會好好來做，規劃最為重要，地方創生的規劃最為重要，我一定要跟你們講，不是拿來做人情的，做人情的我們看了有時候覺得不可思議，沒有人潮怎麼做生意啊？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：地方創生我們沒有做人情。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：地方有需求，我們就儘量協助在地的年輕人。"],["陳委員超明：你們補助給在地的培力站，我都……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：他們有想法、有解決方案，我們就來支持。"],["陳委員超明：但是那個環境你要造成才能有培力啊！工作站才能永遠存下來啦！好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：你不要每次都只說是。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們再來思考怎麼設計。"],["陳委員超明：我已經跟你講了，規劃很重要，好好的輔導出來才會具有成效。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["陳委員超明：你們就去地方看，看了覺得這個地方好，就好好規劃，這樣地方創生才能縮短城鄉差距，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["陳委員超明：到底有沒有？我已經講了兩次了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我來思考以後再給你報告。"],["陳委員超明：以後如果地方創生規劃費沒有，我就找你喔，你不要在這邊跟我一直點頭說好，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["陳委員超明：說的就要算數。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["陳委員超明：大聲一點，好再大聲一點。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。接下來我們請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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廣州委員好 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10:08:08","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":404,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:08:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:01:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：徐委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。除了花東建設很重要之外，南部的建設我們也非常的注意，我之前在總質詢，還有我們委員會的質詢中，一直都有聽到的訊息是我們依照所謂相關的程序來進行所謂交通建設的一個規劃，包含可行性評估、綜合規劃、環評，照這個程序走。請教部長，還有沒有捷徑可以走？"],["王部長國材：沒有，因為它當時的設計就是這樣，可行性跟綜合規劃就是談工程可不可行、效益有沒有；然後環評就是對環境的衝擊。所以我是覺得過去不管是完成或進行中的計畫，這個程序是走得很完整，而且全國皆然，每一個個案計畫都是這樣走。屏東的部分，比如說現在在走的延伸屏東或是未來延伸潮州，這個也是一段一段照這樣在走，包括地方的捷運也是一樣，沒有一個是有一個捷徑突然用一個特別條例就把它框住了，沒有這樣的！"],["徐委員富癸：對，所以我要請教部長，過去有任何的交通建設，是用這種法案的形式來推動嗎？"],["王部長國材：過去有的，第一個就是剛才談到的，在重大的災難，像新冠肺炎這個部分；另外一個，它是一個大的方向，比如說離島建設條例是把各個可以做的都放在裡面，還有包括花東特別條例，它是整個的，但是每一個細項也要做評估；除非是重大的，比如說過去對治水，如果發覺這個治水很嚴重，可能就會有這種狀況，但如果不到這麼緊急的狀況，好像沒有個案計畫是用一個特別條例來處理的。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席的想法是這樣子，其實重大交通建設是每個委員的壓力，然後每個選區的鄉親都希望有便捷的交通建設，但是程序上面，希望我們行政部門能夠依法加快速度。"],["王部長國材：我們應該要加速。"],["徐委員富癸：接著就是我們票價調整的部分，這也是我們全民關心的議題，請教部長，針對臺鐵、高鐵這些相關的調整，其實對於我們南部，尤其是我們屏東的鄉親來講，在我們重大交通建設還沒有到位之前，我們馬上就要承受所謂的票價調整，所以針對中長期票價有沒有什麼樣的一個補貼方案、規劃？"],["王部長國材：現在國道客運大概就用這種方式，就是短途的我們有TPASS，像屏東也有TPASS，它就cover掉了；然後中長程的部分，雖然它核定了基本費率，但是票價我們是用某一種補貼來處理，至於臺鐵跟高鐵，因為還沒有提出來，但也有可能我們用類似的方式來處理，像短途的部分，高鐵是沒有啦！但臺鐵短途的部分，TPASS也可以處理，然後還有中長途，所以怎麼樣找到一個方式讓這個票價不要變動太大，這個我們會來考慮。但是跟委員報告，臺鐵跟高鐵，我們現在回算中，因為他們剛剛才在討論費率等等的，而這個討論會在今年下半年才會進行，所以目前是不會的。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，是這樣子的，去年發生高鐵自由座之亂，如果我們的高鐵、臺鐵的票價，沒有一個整合型的平臺來做處理，後續就會發生所謂高鐵跟臺鐵自由座的票價，可能會有一些競爭的關係存在，後續也會造成自由座壅塞的一個狀況，針對下個禮拜的清明連假，包含整個交通運輸的狀況及處理，交通部有怎麼樣的一個規劃呢？"],["王部長國材：我們在連續假日都有它的機制，第一個，它的備用車廂會投入，這個事情他們也會處理；再來就是整個自由座的部分，過去比如說有部分的車廂會開放自由座的人進去等等的，這一部分高鐵有它的SOP，而高鐵公司大概也都已經瞭解相關的SOP，過去曾發生像臺中有一些亂象，他們現在也都瞭解了，整個都有改善了，最近這些連續假日已經沒有再發生那個狀況了，當然，還是要全力以赴，隨時注意狀況。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，因為屏東縣幅員廣闊，我們屏東縣的客運面臨路線虧損的問題，也必須要中央來支應。根據本席這邊的數據，我們110年、111年都虧損超過5,000萬以上，目前我們縣政府針對小黃公車有布線34條路線，然後輔佐一個幸福巴士，有44條路線，總共78條路線，對於我們偏鄉是一個很重要的交通協助，請教部長，但是這個費用對我們縣市政府來講是一個很沉重的負擔，中央有沒有可能來提高負擔的比例？"],["王部長國材：我請局長來跟委員說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，偏鄉的部分，像屏東縣的小黃公車，我們現在已經在17個鄉鎮、32條路線，相關虧損的補貼，其實我們都有補助，幸福巴士也是一樣，基本上，只要屏東縣他們各鄉鎮的路線還在繼續運行，因為我們也在鼓勵他們持續開闢相關幸福巴士跟小黃公車的路線，所以這個補助的部分，我們基本上就是依照他們相關的營運成本，畢竟他們也有收一些基本的票價，收入之後扣掉的我們就會補助。"],["徐委員富癸：本席還是建議我們公路總局能夠來研議一下，畢竟對我們屏東來講，大型巴士進入到偏鄉是不方便的，此時小黃公車發揮一個很大的作用，請我們交通部研議一下，能不能增加一個補貼、增加一個路線的規劃？"],["王部長國材：好，我們研議一下。"],["徐委員富癸：好，本席的質詢到此結束，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。接下來有請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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所以我要請教部長過去有任何的交通建設是用這樣子法案的形式來推動嗎過去有的第一個就是剛才談到的在重大的災難像那個這個新冠肺炎的這個部分另外一個是他是一個大的方向比如說離島建設條例他是一個各個可以做的都放在裡面一個就是對於還有包括花東的特別條例他是這個整個但是每一個細項也要做評估"},{"start":108.456,"end":123.575,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":123.675,"end":143.733,"text":"市長,我的本席的想法是這樣子就是其實重大交通建設是每個委員的壓力每個選區的鄉親都希望有便捷的交通建設但是程序上面也是希望我們行政部門能夠加快依法加快速度我得加速,我們應該要加速"},{"start":144.488,"end":169.268,"text":"那針對我想接著我們的一個票價調整的部分也是我們全民關心的議題那請教部長針對台鐵高鐵這些相關的調整部分是對我們南部尤其是我們屏東的鄉親來講在我們重大交通建設還沒有到位之前我們馬上承受就是所謂的票價調整那這部分是不是針對中長期票價有沒有什麼樣的一個補貼的一個方案規劃"},{"start":170.51,"end":189.75,"text":"現在是國道科研大概就用這種方式,就是短途我們TPAS嘛,像屏東有TPAS,他就卡不掉了。然後這個中長城,雖然他核定了基本匯率,但是票價我們用某一種補貼來處理。那排鐵跟高鐵因為還沒提出來。"},{"start":190.811,"end":219.305,"text":"有可能我們用劣勢的方式來處理,因為短途,高鐵是沒有啦,像台鐵短途是這個TPAS也可以處理然後這個中長途我們到底怎麼樣讓這個票價能夠怎麼樣找到一個這個不要太這個變動太大,這個我們要來考慮但是根本包括台鐵跟高鐵我們現在回算,因為他們現在剛剛在討論送到怎麼會等等的齁,這個的討論會在這個今年下半年才會討論"},{"start":220.505,"end":234.979,"text":"現在目前不會部長我想是這樣子就是去年發生高鐵自由作制亂如果說我們的高鐵台鐵的票價沒有一個整合性的一個平台來做處理後續就會發生所謂的"},{"start":236.901,"end":241.986,"text":"稍後會造成一個自由座擁捨的一個狀況,那這部分針對下個禮拜的清明年假,我在想包含整個交通的一個運輸的狀況處理,交通部是不是有什麼樣的一個規劃?"},{"start":257.961,"end":273.319,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":273.319,"end":298.097,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":299.313,"end":304.518,"text":"另外我針對我們因為屏東縣這個復原廣化我們屏東縣的客運面臨這個路線虧損的問題也要必須要中央來支應那根據本期這邊的數據我們一年大概110年跟111年都虧損超過5000萬以上"},{"start":317.208,"end":343.041,"text":"那這個目前我們縣政府針對小黃公車的一個步線有34條路線然後輔佐我們一個幸福巴士44條路線總共78條路線對我們偏鄉是一個很重要的一個交通協助那請教部長但是這些負擔對我們縣市政府來講是很重的一個沉重的一個比例啦齁中央有沒有可能來提高我們的一個負擔的比例我請局長跟你回答是"},{"start":343.962,"end":359.064,"text":"跟委員報告就是偏鄉像屏東縣的這個小黃公車我們現在已經就是在17個鄉鎮那有32條路線那相關的就是說他的一個虧損的補貼其實我們都有補助那在幸福巴士也是一樣"},{"start":359.525,"end":379.742,"text":"那這邊的話只要就是說屏東縣他們就是在各鄉鎮就是還在因為我們也是鼓勵他們就是說持續開闢相關的幸福小黃幸福巴士跟小黃公車相關的路線那這個補助的部分我想我們基本上就是依照他們的這個有一個相關的營運的成本因為他們也有收一些基本的票價"},{"start":380.442,"end":380.702,"text":"徐富癸"}]}},{"id":"150323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b75b4ca8e6741015bcabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a60b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:54:47 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包括蔡英文來去兌現他的政治承諾跟政治支票所以我覺得今天的這個審查甚至部長應該是要以積極的態度來配合協助謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150322","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150322","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005baf6243f3388c2992cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a488f48b86ec085f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:47:04 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09:54:37","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":453,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:54:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:47:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時47分）好，謝謝我們主席，一樣先請王部長。"],["主席：王部長。"],["王部長國材：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長。部長，一開始就要先來跟你討論一個院長過去這段時間的承諾，本席3月8號總質詢的時候也問過陳建仁院長說，520之前公用費率除了電價之外，還有什麼要漲？當時陳建仁院長說除了電價之外，其他的東西不會再漲。我想問一下部長，你的直屬長官目前還是陳建仁嗎？是吧？"],["王部長國材：是，我跟委員報告，整個目前的討論，就是國道客運的部分，我剛才已經提過了，就是它……"],["黃委員健豪：不只國道客運，現在臺鐵還有高鐵傳出要漲，現在當然公路客運、國道客運也有可能會漲價。"],["王部長國材：臺鐵跟高鐵的部分，我剛才談到這是下半年在討論的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以部長你承諾520前，在這段漲價的風波裡面，520前我們的公路客運、我們的臺鐵、我們的高鐵不會漲價嗎？"],["王部長國材：國道客運比較……我們用補貼的方式來協助它，因為國道客運現在經營困境，像基隆、桃園都有它的困境啦！"],["黃委員健豪：我瞭解他們有經營困境，這不是今年才發生的，長期都發生這件事情。"],["王部長國材：是，我跟黃委員報告，我透過補貼給它，雖然調但是民眾感受不會那麼多。"],["黃委員健豪：所以520前，剛剛提到了，不管高鐵、臺鐵跟公路客運、國道客運都不會再漲價？我要確定這件事情。"],["王部長國材：國道客運因為他們有急迫性，我是覺得會讓它……"],["黃委員健豪：那你這樣子，院長的承諾不就跳票了？"],["王部長國材：但是我會用補貼的方式，但是雙鐵的部分是下半年再討論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，因為我想現在距離520其實也不到兩個月，當然，現任院長的承諾，我想現在的行政團隊應該要去遵行才對，要不然接下來這兩個月，陳建仁說的話到底還算不算數？我想這個是責任政治的問題啦！如果你要漲價、你有什麼問題、你有什麼窒礙難行的東西，是不是等新的閣揆、新的行政團隊組成後再去執行？要不然你看520之後有新的院長、新的團隊，那我想問一下，我們在質詢，我們要找誰負責？因為到時候有可能做決策的人都不在了，所以這個是本席的要求啦，520前，這也是院長的承諾嘛！這不是我今天提出來的啊！3月8號他的承諾說除了電費之外，其他東西不會再漲價，當然這個是院長承諾，我也希望部長你要去遵守行政倫理，部長可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：是，跟黃委員報告，關於國道客運現在的處理方式是這樣，因為短途的部分有TPASS。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["王部長國材：臺中都有TPASS，所以不會影響到，中長途我們用部分補貼的方式，那它的實施會不會在520之後，因為我們交通費率委員會現在還沒有審，也有可能是520之後。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。","接下來我們要討論今天這個條例的問題。來，我先請教一下，部長，你認識臺上的人吧？這個畫面上、臺上的人你都認識吧？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：賴清德當初在競選的時候承諾，兩人當選共同推動花東快速道路，那現在只有一人當選，所以就不承諾了嗎？"],["王部長國材：不是，這個包括賴副總統或是蕭副總統和我，我剛才談到的，基本上花東快速道路大家都支持啦！"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["王部長國材：我們從專業角度來看，當然要透過一些評估啦！所以我是講不反對，事實上我覺得這對花東是一個正義，所有人都支持，現在我們也在做了、在做可行性……"],["黃委員健豪：好啊，你支持，那今天要審這個相關條例就沒有什麼爭議了嘛，部長！"],["王部長國材：一定要等可行性客觀的評估出來。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，為什麼今天要特別把這個拿出來講，因為選舉時大家都很會開支票，選舉的時候也沒有人講這一句話，當初在承諾時並沒有講要交通部來評估，評估完之後再決定要不要來推動，他那時候承諾是，兩人當選共同推動花東快速道路，也不能因為今天有一個人沒當選……","對於當初的承諾，而且其中一個人當選成為未來的總統，520就要就職了，那總統當初在競選時的承諾到底算不算數？部長，這個不能跳票啊！"],["王部長國材：他們兩個表達他的態度啦，但是所有的計畫還是必須走專業程序，大概是這樣。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你剛剛說這個報告裡面提到，其實今天我們提了這個東西，我先問你這件事情，這個是預算案還是法律案？"],["王部長國材：這個是法律案。"],["黃委員健豪：這是法律案嘛！你們的處理意見報告裡面就講，依憲法第七十條，立法院對行政院所提預算案，你剛剛說這個叫法律案，但是你給立法院的報告裡面認為這叫預算案，所以部長你們在本質上、認知上就出現了一個問題，今天提的是法律案，不是預算案……"],["王部長國材：是。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，如果要依據憲法，要談憲法大家來談憲法，憲法增修條文第三條，如果行政院、行政部門對立法院所提的法律案、預算案覺得窒礙難行，窒礙難行出現在你們報告最後一頁的倒數第三句，你們覺得有窒礙難行之處要做什麼事情？不是現在去放話說立法院違憲，你們不該做這種事情，柯建銘的憲法世界跟我們不太一樣，他的世界裡面吸毒是無罪的，但我們是有罪的，所以部長你不能受柯建銘影響啊！如果你們覺得有窒礙難行之處，應該依據憲法增修條文第三條去提覆議案，這是法定程序，如果你們真的覺得窒礙難行，我也尊重行政部門嘛，但是你們要先尊重立法部門啊！今天我們提的是法律案，認為花東地區有這一條快速道路興建的必要性，提了這個條例，所以提了這個法律案……"],["王部長國材：我是不是跟委員做個簡單說明？"],["黃委員健豪：時間也不夠了，沒關係，我先講完。部長，我要說的是，如果你們真的覺得窒礙難行，你們可以最後去提覆議案，這是憲法賦予你們的權力，我也不能阻止，可是不是現在就說：你們這些人不懂法律、不懂憲法。沒有人不懂法律、不懂憲法，如果不懂憲法、不懂法律，我們也不會選上啦！也不會提這樣子的關係文書，所以今天我希望大家談憲法，那就依照憲法的步驟來做，我們今天提的相關法案你們不同意、不滿意，你們覺得這東西讓行政部門窒礙難行，那你們後面提覆議案就好啦！"],["王部長國材：是，我跟委員報告，這也是來自於我們法務部的見解，現在雖然是預算案，但是裡面包……"],["黃委員健豪：法律案啦！"],["王部長國材：現在是法律案，裡面包著預算，所以他們認為這一樣是牴觸憲法第七十條，目前大概是這樣的見解。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，部長謝謝，那我們就再問法務部長嘛，只是我還是要提醒你啊！在你的權限裡面，如果你們真的覺得窒礙難行，那就提覆議案，大家再來討論一次，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來有請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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那中長途的部分我們用部分補貼的方式"},{"start":186.388,"end":206.226,"text":"那他實施會不會在520之後因為我們現在這個我們交通會議委員會現在還沒有審也有可能是520之後好部長謝謝那接下來我們要討論到今天這所謂的這個條例的問題來我先請教一下部長你認識台上的人吧"},{"start":208.176,"end":231.696,"text":"這個畫面上台上這個這個人都認識嗎這個賴清德當年當初在競選的時候承諾兩人當選共同推動花東快速道路兩人當選那現在只有一人當選所以就不承諾了嗎這個包括賴副總統或是蕭副總統包括我我剛才談到的就是說基本上這個花東快速道路大家都都支持"},{"start":232.897,"end":247.089,"text":"當然我從一個這個我們專案裡面當然要透過一些評估啦所以我是講不反對事實上我是覺得這個是對花東一個正義但是我需所有人都支持現在我們也在做了在做可行性"},{"start":248.21,"end":266.886,"text":"今天要審這個相關條例我覺得就沒有什麼爭議了嘛部長部長為什麼今天要特別把這個拿出來講因為選舉的時候大家都很會開支票選舉的時候也沒有人講說這一句話當初在承諾說並沒有講說我們還要等交通部來評估評估完之後我們再決定要不要來推動"},{"start":267.566,"end":268.747,"text":"他們兩個表達他的態度啦但是所有的計畫我們還是從專業上必須走過這個程序是大概這樣"},{"start":292.122,"end":307.246,"text":"部長你剛剛提到說這個報告裡面也提到其實今天我們提了這東西他到底是來我先問你這件事情這個是預算案還是法律案這個是法律案這是法律案嘛那你們的處理意見報告裡面卻講說"},{"start":311.516,"end":332.069,"text":"你用一憲法第70條立法院對行政所提預算案你剛剛說這叫法律案但是你給這個立法院的報告裡面認為這叫預算案所以本質上部長你們在認知上就出現一個問題了今天這提的是法律案不是預算案再來如果你要依據憲法要談憲法大家來談憲法"},{"start":334.168,"end":363.368,"text":"憲法正確條文第3條如果行政院行政部門對立法院所提的法律案預算案你覺得自愛難行自愛難行出現在你們報告最後一頁倒數第三句你覺得自愛難行之處你要做什麼事情你不是現在去泛話說什麼立法院違憲你不該做這種事情那個 柯建民的憲法世界跟我不太一樣他的世界裡面吸毒是無罪的但是我們是有罪的"},{"start":364.889,"end":372.759,"text":"所以我想部長你不能受科技名影響啊如果你覺得有治安難聽之訴你應該依據憲法徵修條文的第三條去提復議案"},{"start":374.231,"end":400.524,"text":"這是你的法定程序啊如果你真的覺得治安難行那我也尊重你行政部門嘛但是你要先尊重立法部門啊今天我們提的是法律案認為花東地區有這一條快速道路興建的必要性提了這個條例所以提了這個法律案時間也不夠了沒關係我先講完齁所以如果部長我要說如果你覺得治安難行你可以最後去提復議案這是憲法復印的權利我也不能阻止你"},{"start":402.061,"end":423.828,"text":"可是你不是現在就說啊你們這些人不懂法律不懂憲法我沒有人不懂法律不懂憲法如果不懂憲法不懂法律我們也不會選上啦也不會提這樣子的關係文書所以我今天希望說大家談憲法那就大家依照憲法的這個步驟來做我們今天提了相關的法案你不同意你不滿意你覺得這個東西你行這部門自然難行那你後面就提復議案就好啦"},{"start":424.188,"end":450.337,"text":"我剛剛有報告這個是來自我們法務部的見解就是說現在雖然是預算案但是裡面包著法律案裡面包著預算所以他們認為這個一樣是抵觸這個憲法第47條但目前大概是這樣的見解好沒關係部長謝謝那我們就再問法務部長只是我還是要提醒你你的權限裡面如果你正確自在難行那就提復議案大家再來討論一次好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150321","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150321","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b247859632dde4ec40ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a682244cc87e3a1d295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:59:49 - 10:08:37","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":528,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:08:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:59:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時）謝謝主席，請龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：呂委員早安。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，本席想請教你，我們蔡英文政府在520就任之後，他一直都有說過電費都不要漲，尤其是在2016年2月29日，蔡英文有特別提到，10年內我們電費都不會大幅度上漲，但是在他執政這8年，我們的電費漲了4次，而且漲幅高達35%，在這種情況之下，經濟部在這次的漲價漲了11%，還特別說這個漲幅不會影響物價的高漲，也不會有什麼很大的影響。請教主委，你同意、認同經濟部的說法嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我想當初我們主要是講照顧民生，就是民生用電的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在民生跟產業都漲了11%啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：民生用電沒漲那麼多，民生的漲幅比較小啦！就是330度以下的……"],["呂委員玉玲：它有一些級距啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以現在的……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你認為影響有限就是了？你也認同？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在民生的部分漲的電價事實上比2016年之前還要低，現在才兩塊多而已，現在成本都要三塊多，但是民生用電才兩塊多，所以是有達到照顧民生。以這一次來講，主要漲的的確是出口型現在業績很好外銷的這些產業，以外銷的產業來講，它的價格會反映在出口上，比較不會反映在國內。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委你一直認為也是影響有限，因為民生用電的級距可能有兩塊多，沒有到三塊四這種情形，但是你要知道，這幾年來，我們17項重要民生物資CPI年增率都一直在高漲，都達到新高，如果你認為影響有限、影響不會很大的話，你認為今年的年增率會到達多少？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你講的是CPI是不是？"],["呂委員玉玲：對呀！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：物價上漲率？"],["呂委員玉玲：是啊！你電費漲了，這個不會漲嗎？其實所有民眾大家心裡都有數啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：多少會反映。"],["呂委員玉玲：多少？年增率已經高漲到百分之……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：原來我們預估可能直接反映會百分之零點一二多，但是因為現在央行升息了，所以對物價的預期心理應該會有一些抑制的效果。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你的感覺也太過於良好了。你知不知道在今年3月20號物價小組在會議中也特別提到，在這一次的物價增長率，他們還是要求延長到6月，所以從2021年12月到現在，我們減稅延長時間已經延長了11次，你知道我們減少的稅金有多少？853億，我們減收了853億，你的感覺還這麼良好啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，就是每一季去檢討一次，所以3月份……"],["呂委員玉玲：本席要提醒你，從2021年到現在延長了11次。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，不過，以現在臺灣財政上的收入，事實上，每一年都有超過預算數，所以財政應該是沒有什麼問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以還是可以去cover就對了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你的評估是這樣子。主委，我們想請教的是，我們的電價一定要漲價才能夠去解決台電虧損的問題嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在經濟部是有兩個方向……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果你來當經濟部長的話，你會有什麼方式？除了漲電價，你還有什麼更適當的方式？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：一個就是預算的撥補，另外一個當然是反映成本，大概就是兩個部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以主委你沒有認為因為過於樂觀、理想的能源政策才是今天電價漲價的主因嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：但是臺灣的電價漲，相對於其他國家還比較少，其他國家的漲幅都更大。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你的感覺一直都很良好，你認為能源政策不需要做調整其配比嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為這是一個全球性的問題，不單單只是臺灣的問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為我們綠能的部分太高了，所以我們電費成本一直提高，因此整個能源政策是不是應該要適當調整它的配比，才不會讓台電一直在虧損？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為現在電價的調整主要是受到國際能源價格一些波動或高漲的影響，一旦將來再生能源我們自給率可以擴充來講，就比較不會受到國際能源價格波動的影響，所以這也是我們為什麼要一直推展我們能源自主，不斷的再生能源擴充……"],["呂委員玉玲：要有正確的能源政策啦！國發會也要好好的來照顧我們的民生，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：今天最主要談的就是國發基金，我們知道國發會對於各部會實行的計畫，你們都有建議跟提醒的功能，所以你們也就沒有什麼實權，但是國發基金你們就有它的權責要來負責，雖然剛剛聽到我們主委一直強調投資也有週期性，但是我們要提醒的是，你們在事先、投資前的評估跟投資後的管理，一定不可以把錢丟進去就不管了，讓它隨便的發展，所以本席在這邊提醒的就是，主委，這一次我們看到我們投資在幾個投資項目裡面，像我們的產業潛力跟我們各方面的發展，截至2月份為止，我們投資了777億的資金，但是我們看到像如興公司跟東貝光電投資是失利的部分，你們都有做檢討了沒有？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有做檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席也都質詢過了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是現在有一家我們有投資進去的部分，我們看到投資兆遠科技公司將近二億零四百多萬，這個兆遠科技公司，我們是什麼時候投資進去的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：大概109年左右吧！"],["呂委員玉玲：2019年投資進去了嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：到2022年已經虧損了1億1,657萬，虧損將近一半，那你們的評估跟管理機制呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，它已經被併購了，它已經被一家環球晶併購了。"],["呂委員玉玲：它被併購沒有錯，被併購了，如果再繼續虧損下去，難道我們不可以撤資嗎？還要繼續虧損下去嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：它被環球晶併購，我們現在轉換的股票就是環球晶的股票，環球晶是賺錢的，它賺很多錢，當然我們也可以賣掉，但是就是賣掉環球晶的股票，因為它被併購了，所以已經沒有兆遠這家公司了，所以就變成它的股票會換成環球晶的股票。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，我們看到國發會的整個評估、投資方面，你們都要有審查的機制，你們審查機制有沒有第三方？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有、有、有，我們都有第三方的會計師事務所幫我們做盡職調查（due diligence），都有幫我們做，調查的結果會提供給第三方匿名投票的委員來做投票，所以我們是沒有參與的，是委員來投票。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以請主委對於我們評估投資進去的，雖然有週期性，但是如果狀況不好，我們還是可以撤資，你要進行控制跟管理的部分，要去監督好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要把錢丟進去就不管了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。接下來我們請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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10:07:31","影片長度":"00:13:51","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":831,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:07:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:53:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時53分）謝謝主席及各位先進。先有請朱主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教一個很簡單的問題，請你簡短回答，現在電價要漲，有些單位受不了了，比如臺大都講話了，有沒有可能請主計總處這裡給學校補貼，以及醫院，有沒有可能給它補貼？以及捷運方面、TPASS等等的，有沒有可能？給我一句話！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，對學校是有一個適當的措施，對醫院我還要去查，對捷運的話，我必須說明一下，臺鐵以及北捷，因為TPASS的使用，我記得北捷已經增加了三十幾億的補助，不是電價調整，每年就有補助它三十幾億，臺鐵就有補助十幾億……"],["賴委員士葆：那TPASS呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是TPASS。"],["賴委員士葆：好，所以捷運不用說了，學校還在……"],["朱主計長澤民：捷運不是我們管的，我們尊重，我是說我們對它有一些TPASS的補助。"],["賴委員士葆：那醫院呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：醫院是怎麼樣？"],["賴委員士葆：補助啊！補貼啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：補貼我剛才講的是年度。"],["賴委員士葆：學校呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：醫院我不曉得，我要去查一下，學校不是補助，是不調漲，不是補助。"],["賴委員士葆：學校確定不調漲了？"],["朱主計長澤民：據我知道……"],["賴委員士葆：確定了？現在大學都說要漲，這個確定了？"],["朱主計長澤民：據我知道，上個禮拜五的時候行政院有開會，對某些是不漲的，社福機構沒有漲、學校沒有漲，醫院的話，我要去查一下。"],["賴委員士葆：所以可以確定的是學校不漲、社福機構不漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：醫院我要再查一下。"],["賴委員士葆：醫院還在考慮？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是在考慮，我要去看決策，因為這是禮拜五在行政院做的決策。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有答案對外宣布？"],["朱主計長澤民：行政院好像已經……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，行政院還沒有。"],["朱主計長澤民：我去瞭解一下，這是內部會議。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這個要考慮到整體，特別是弱勢團體。主計長請回，請金管會黃主委以及數發部李次長。"],["主席：請黃主委、數發部李懷仁政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：先請教黃主委，金管會的AI防詐怎麼防？現在有金融的AI防詐訓練模型，國內銀行是否只限制用國內運算，國外銀行用國外運算可不可以？這個你知道嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，目前國內銀行只有部分的項目用AI，並沒有很廣泛，金管會也有訂定一個AI原則和指引，AI防詐部分我有責成銀行局和公會特別要注意將來這部分怎麼處理。"],["賴委員士葆：我要強調的是，這些客戶資料的運算是不是都在國內？銀行法第十六條規定了，如果稽核銀行的資訊系統、AI系統、AI模型，請問要怎麼稽核？如果它在國外的話要怎麼稽核？"],["黃主任委員天牧：關於委員垂詢的問題，我只是想釐清你的問題，你的問題是銀行的AI防詐模型，還是銀行被AI詐騙？我不太清楚您的意思。"],["賴委員士葆：防詐、防詐，我講的是防詐。"],["黃主任委員天牧：銀行的AI防詐模型，我不太確定銀行現在有沒有，我請局長說明一下。"],["主席：請莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，現在銀行在使用AI的時候，大部分都是在做一些風險控管，剛剛委員垂詢的，是不是會把資料傳送，如果銀行要把資料傳送到外面去做AI運算的時候，因為這個牽涉到跟客戶的資料有關，原則上它要來跟我們提出申請。"],["賴委員士葆：目前沒有？"],["莊局長琇媛：目前沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：政府導入111，幾乎各部會都有，財政部也有，金管會可不可以協助銀行導入111？因為民眾常常接到銀行的假簡訊，我這裡就有一張自來水營業處的帳單，上面就有寫簡訊短碼111才是北水處官方簡訊，一定要有111，其他各部會都導入了，金管會好像並沒有要求銀行導入111，有沒有？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，我先說明一下，公股銀行的部分，本週我們就會開會確定導入的時間，所以公股銀行都沒有問題了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以公股銀行本週就可以導入111？"],["李次長懷仁：本週會開會確定他們導入的時程，只要走政府採購，但是應該都沒問題，只是導入時間的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：民間的呢？"],["李次長懷仁：民間的部分，我們其實之前就有詢問過，有些民間銀行想要用自己的簡碼，他們想要去跟電信公司採購自己的簡碼。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會如果需要你的協助，數發部可以協助嗎。"],["李次長懷仁：完全沒有問題，積極全力配合。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，我請教李次長，你知道暗網嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣的個資，在座的everybody here不要懷疑，你的資料全都露，我這裡擷取了9.8萬筆將近10萬筆的股民資料，只要188USDT，這是另外的幣值，但是跟美金差不多，188美金等於不到6,000臺幣，所有的股民資料全部都在這裡面。主委，你要不要針對這個事情講一下話？暗網，可以在這裡買賣！"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果有這個事情，當然我們要……"],["賴委員士葆：資料已經給你看了，就是有這種事情啊！次長知道嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：暗網上面一直持持續續都有這種說法，但是資料可能要經過比對才能確認是不是真實，因為它常常有過去的各種資料去綜整。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有追蹤、防堵、管理能力？"],["李次長懷仁：跟委員報告，政府整體來說有，數位部沒有在主動追蹤，但是數位部有參加情資聯防。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在只有揭露股民的資料而已，其他的資料、個資早就露光光了，而且賣的都不貴，我們2,300萬人民的個資，賣的話差不多一千多塊美金而已，我說的這個數字對吧？次長跟我點頭是同意嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：要確認這個資料的真實性。"],["賴委員士葆：如果正確，這個都是在網路上抓到的，有人進去暗網裡面把資料弄下來給我看的。"],["李次長懷仁：網路上也有人買了被騙的。"],["賴委員士葆：你們先不要走，我再請法務部黃次長，還有刑事警察局有沒有人來？"],["主席：請法務部黃謀信次長、刑事警察局黃壬聰副局長。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官都有用LINE嗎？都有用LINE，有吧？都有。臺灣有97%的人使用通訊軟體LINE，現在詐騙集團用最多的通訊軟體就是LINE，結果我們刑事警察局交給檢察官、交給法院來回了不起2天，但是把這個文傳到LINE去等回復要1個月，請問李次長或黃次長，你們有沒有邀請LINE來，跟它講請它快一點，不然這個詐騙1個月以後就「火化去矣」！就不用玩了！有沒有？"],["李次長懷仁：有，我們已經好幾次請LINE來開會，也有請檢調同仁一起來開會。"],["賴委員士葆：黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，不只在我們負責打詐的臺灣高等檢察署，甚至本部已經多次找LINE公司來就LINE資料提供的迅速性以及下架機制，已經討論過非常多次了。"],["賴委員士葆：結果就是1個月，討論了半天還是1個月，你不覺得太慢了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：因為LINE畢竟是私人公司，它有它的政策，所以它對於相關資料的調取，就公司政策是採一個比較嚴格的方式，它必須要有法院的搜索令狀才願意提供。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是經過你們，我剛剛已經講了，你沒有仔細聽，經過法院跟它調資料，1個月才給你們，欺負我們，我告訴你們，其實LINE在國安的部分，跟我們政府是有綠色通道的，政府直接跟LINE就政治的相關案件、政治偵防部分，LINE的回應是很快的，它有綠色通道。但是對於我們關心的詐騙沒有，你剛剛講公事公辦，因為你們兩個都不敢得罪LINE，財政部也在這裡，我們跟財政部講Meta、FB有稅的問題，財政部找他們來很快就解決了。為什麼你們兩位長官以及兩個這麼大的部會跟LINE講了半天，它就是不買單？為什麼會這樣子呢？為什麼要1個月，1個月回來就沒有用了，你知道嗎？我最近還接到選民服務，陳情人被騙了3,000萬，就是透過LINE詐騙投資，他被騙了3,000萬，他所有的儲蓄、所有退休所要的錢，全部，他人都快自殺了、瘋掉了，以前還有2,000萬的，動輒千萬，都是透過LINE這個通訊軟體這樣被騙，結果你們擺爛了，你們兩個部會，法務部跟數發部，找它來談就是1個月，你看我們內部，刑事警察局到檢察官到法院，2天程序走完，給LINE 1個月，這個絕對有辦法來請它縮短，對吧？次長，兩位次長。"],["李次長懷仁：先跟委員報告一下，過去在調閱的門檻或者是警方請他們提供資料門檻，我們已經有成功協調它降下來，這個部分我們也會再跟LINE說明、要求。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！你們一定要跟它講，要請它縮短，1個月就來不及了啦！同意吧？黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：同意，完全同意。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，也是很重要的問題，LINE可不可以監聽？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：這個是一個技術性的問題，就現狀、我個人所知來講，LINE目前的通訊監察是有它一定的困難度。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我問你，你回答我Yes、No嘛，因為主席站起來了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，目前……"],["賴委員士葆：可以監聽嘛！對不對？技術沒問題吧？"],["黃次長謀信：因為它是有一個保密設定……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，技術有沒有問題啦？","請問李次長，技術有沒有問題？監聽LINE的內容有沒有問題？"],["李次長懷仁：一定時間上可以……"],["賴委員士葆：啊？"],["李次長懷仁：技術上要有一定的門檻，但是可以做得到。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單白話文就是說沒有問題，所以各位用LINE通訊什麼之類的，政府在後面看著，要小心。"],["李次長懷仁：委員，政府沒有辦法。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。"],["賴委員士葆：不好意思，我再補一句。幾年前我就問法務部次長，那時候法務部次長叫陳明堂，幾年前在司法委員會就清楚說LINE可以監聽。"],["主席：好，查一下，你們再回復。","下一位質詢請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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here不要懷疑你的資料全都錄這裡我就擷取了一段9.8萬將近10萬筆的股民資料188塊美金因為是dt是另外筆指但是跟美金差不多188塊美金就是不到6000塊台幣所有的股民資料全部都在這裡面"},{"start":413.462,"end":419.103,"text":"那個主委你要不要針對這個事情講一下話暗網可以在這裡買賣我想我們如果有這個事情當然我們要資料已經給你看了就有這個事情了來來市長知道嗎市長來這個暗網上面一直持續都有這種說法但是資料可能要經過比頓才能確認是不是真實因為它常常有過去的各種資料去重整"},{"start":443.671,"end":465.396,"text":"你們有沒有追蹤黃獨管理人力?各位委員報告政府整體來說有那這個部分數位部沒有在主動追蹤但是數位部有參加親自聯防這個啊有些就是只有揭露股門的資料而已喔其他的資料各自走去露光光的而且賣的都不貴喔"},{"start":466.89,"end":475.744,"text":"兩千三百萬我們兩千三百萬人民的個資賣的話大概就差不多一千多塊美金而已啊對吧 我這數字對吧車長給我點頭是同意嗎是"},{"start":481.073,"end":483.975,"text":"我們網路上也有人買了被騙的。好,那我再請法務部,你們先不要走。"},{"start":505.05,"end":509.314,"text":"法務部的黃次長還有刑事警察局的黃仁聰副局長"},{"start":524.875,"end":552.79,"text":"臺灣的97%的97%使用LINELINE通訊軟體現在詐騙集團用的最多的通訊軟體就是LINE結果我們西市警察局交給檢察官交給法院來回了不起兩天但是把這個文傳到LINE去回復一個月回復一個月我就問理事長"},{"start":555.204,"end":576.314,"text":"請問理事長有沒有邀請,或者請那個黃市長都可以喔有沒有邀請LINE來跟你們說請他快點啦這個詐騙一個月以後的會花起啊就不用你了啦喔有沒有有這個我們已經好幾次請LINE來開會也有請解調的同仁一起來開會沒有黃市長"},{"start":578.764,"end":589.419,"text":"各位報告,不只在我們負責打詐的台灣高等檢察署甚至本部已經多次的找賴公司來救他賴資料的提供的迅速性以及下架機制已經討論過非常多次了。"},{"start":593.924,"end":619.552,"text":"您不覺得太慢了嗎?更為報告因為賴他這公司畢竟是私人公司他有他的政策嘛所以他對於相關的資料的調取他就他公司的政策才一個比較嚴格的一個方式他必須要有法院的搜索令狀他才願意提供那但是經過你們勒?經過我剛剛已經有講了你們只是聽經過法院勒?經過法院給他調資料勒?經過法院勒?一個月才給你啊其實我們勒?其實啊"},{"start":623.032,"end":644.294,"text":"我告訴你們LINE跟在國安這一部分跟我們政府是有綠色通道的有綠色通道直接啊我們政府直接要LINE就政治的相關的案件政治證案這一部分LINE是回應很快的它有綠色通道"},{"start":645.436,"end":649.419,"text":"為什麼你們兩位長官集兩個這麼大的部會跟LINE講了半天他就不買單為什麼這樣子呢"},{"start":673.57,"end":681.242,"text":"為什麼一個月回來都沒有啊?你知道嗎?幾個天我最近接到行民服務曾經的人被騙了三千萬就是透過LINE"},{"start":689.582,"end":689.962,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":717.882,"end":742.251,"text":"你看我們內部行事警察局到檢察官、到法院兩天全局總管一個月這個絕對有辦法來請他縮短,對吧?市長先跟委員報告一下過去在調院的門檻或者是警方請他們提供資料的門檻我們已經有成功協調他這樣下來這個部分我們以後再跟賴說明要求"},{"start":743.605,"end":764.133,"text":"你們一定跟他講要請他縮短啦,這一個月不會付錢啦,同意嗎?黃市長,最後一個小問題,也是很重要的問題。LINE可不可以監聽?市長這個是一個技術性的問題啦,就現狀我個人所知來講LINE目前通訊監察是有它一定的困難度。"},{"start":765.123,"end":767.065,"text":"一定時間上可以技術上要有一定的門檻但是可以做得到"},{"start":785.981,"end":788.903,"text":"幾年前我做法務部次長那時候法務部次長叫陳明堂"},{"start":812.574,"end":817.258,"text":"就清楚在幾年前在司法委員會說LINE可以監聽"}]}},{"id":"150319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b998ac4892a0a0b420ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a60fcb2c0d88e7dc125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:51:10 - 09:59:35","影片長度":"00:08:25","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":505,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:59:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:51:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時51分）主席、各位委員。有請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：早安，鄭委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：花東基金是今天審查的預算之一，花東地區發展條例第三條規定：「本條例主管機關，在中央為行政院」，花東基金的管理機關是國家發展委員會。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，管理機關是國發會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後這個條例的主管機關，在縣為花蓮縣政府及臺東縣政府，因為主要是這兩個縣。花東地區發展條例第四條特別規定，中央主管機關也就是行政院，主要的任務就是訂定花東地區永續發展的策略計畫，在中央其實就是國發會主責。我們看花東地區發展條例第五條，縣主管機關應分別或共同依行政院所訂的花東地區永續發展策略計畫，擬訂四年一期之綜合發展實施方案，也就是說花蓮縣政府跟臺東縣政府要依這個行政院所訂的策略計畫訂綜合發展實施方案，而這個發展方案就是要考量到整個花蓮、臺東，之所以要依這個花東地區發展條例，就是因為花蓮、臺東跟西部有非常大的差距，所以要去加強這些很多需要建設、改善的地方。","我們看到國發會訂了一個簡化花東地區永續發展基金補助計畫運作機制，提供給鄉鎮市公所提案的一個機制，當然這個給鄉鎮市公所提案的機制，本席是支持的，但是如果按照這個機制，行動計畫及全期工作計畫書提案、審查、核定、修正、管考及經費撥付等程序，皆由行政院東部聯合服務中心主政及訂定。這個部分要請國發會再檢討，因為這個部分就剛才講的幾個花東地區發展條例的條文，中央跟縣的一個分際……","然後我們看這個，行政院東部聯合服務中心設置要點規定，該中心的任務是協調各部會、協調地方政府，它只有協調，協調各部會宣導相關政策、計畫及施政成果，因為它不是一個正式的組織，在整個行政院裡面，它只不過是一個臨時性的，不是正式的組織，所以這個部分給它這樣的一個權責，我認為從花東地區發展條例而言、從行政院東部聯合服務中心的職掌而言，都是逾越了，因為畢竟花蓮縣政府、臺東縣政府要整體去看整個狀況，不管是從權責或者是從行政機關的組織體系來看，都應該要去檢討、要去改善，可以嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員，我可以說明一下嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個的確是這樣，因為它的服務能量真的是有限，所以我們在109年的時候已經改變了這個提案機制，這個審議的過程或是核定的過程已經回到行政院，就是由我們國發會來處理了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個要改了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，109年已經改了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，我是上你們的網站看到的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：實際的運作已經改掉。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經改了喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為從網站上看還是這個。好，我們看這個作業手冊，這個我也常提到，在前年跟去年都分別提了，就是花東基金要落實「公務為主、基金為輔」的原則。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝國發會有聽進去了，為了這個在去年7月10號召開了會議，花蓮縣及臺東縣的部落聚會所興建經費，改由原民會的宜居部落建設計畫及花東基金來負擔支應，而且你們因應這個，也特別給宜居部落建設計畫增加了1億的經費，要謝謝國發會！","現在原民會根據這個提出了花東地區原住民族部落聚會所興建行動計畫，但現在已經是3月下旬了，還沒有核定，後面整個因應、整個執行會受到很大的影響。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，因為我們已經復院了，就是我們國發會的部分已經復院了，院那邊可能還是要做行政作業，我們來詢問行政院那邊看看，因為我們是3月14號就已經復院了，當然行政院……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：3月14號已經送到行政院了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：行政院當然有它的行政程序，可能還要一段時間，但是很快就會核定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好的，那我瞭解，謝謝國發會。","再來，主委要看一下，今天在樓上，交通委員會在審查花東快速公路的一個法律案。交通部的報告裡面提到，「現行花東地區發展條例規定，花東地區綜合發展實施方案內容涵蓋交通建設，並已設置花東地區永續發展基金推動相關發展事項，爰本案相關交通建設需求，可納入既有的花東地區發展條例辦理，無需另行設置花東快速公路建設發展基金。」這個主委可以支持嗎？有跟你們討論嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，您剛才提到花東基金主要是公務為主，花東基金為輔嘛。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以它沒有辦法容納這麼大的案子，主要還是以交通部自己的這個大案子，它要在那邊……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們這個基金可能沒有辦法容納。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：交通部寫這個意見的時候，沒有先跟你們討論？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們事後有看到，但是我們有表達，因為我們現在才兩百多億，主要是以公務為主，基金為輔，而且我們要容納的項目有十幾、二十項，不單單只是教育一項而已。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，不是教育，是快速公路，花東快速公路。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，花東快速公路。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那我瞭解國發會的意見了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來我們請羅明才委員發言，羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請呂玉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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09:56:46","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":560,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:56:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:47:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時47分）主席好，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我請問一下，高雄被媒體稱為工安之都，您覺得誰要負最大的責任？高雄市政府還是勞動部？"],["許部長銘春：我想有關於勞工的安全問題，都是中央跟地方要一起來面對，然後一起來處理，一起來強化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：之前，我記得你們SOP的回答是中央是監督責任，地方是執行，是不是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：大政策是這樣子啦，但是有些執行面，大部分是在地方政府，但是還是要合作啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：中央還是有責任就對了？"],["許部長銘春：中央就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以啊，一碰到高雄的時候，你們中央就願意扛責任，我覺得這很奇怪，還是有顏色之分！"],["許部長銘春：不會！不會！委員，我們其實對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是碰到藍的就是推給地方，碰到綠的就是中央一起扛。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會！跟委員報告，歷來任何地方政府有發生職災事件，我們中央跟地方都是一起來面對，大家看怎麼去檢討，然後強化，這個一直以來都是這樣，沒有顏色之分啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：佳豐鋁業爆炸案造成2名移工死亡、3名移工及3名本國勞工不同程度的燒燙傷，你知道業者怎麼說嗎？陳其邁市長怎麼說您知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：你說陳市長怎麼說？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，業者怎麼說？"],["許部長銘春：業者喔？"],["邱委員鎮軍：他的回答是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：呃，我沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：廠方是說當時在進行灌模作業，疑似因為控制系統異常，降溫水量不足，才會導致後續接觸高達700度的鋁水池發生爆炸。那我們陳市長則說水量控制器的故障引發大量的鋁液外洩，洩漏到蓄水池而造成爆炸。我覺得這兩個講法不太一樣，我們都知道，高溫鋁碰到水的時候會爆炸，這個國二的時候學校就有教了，業者從76年設立到現在會不知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個實際發生的原因目前都還在調查當中，除了他們高雄市的勞檢處以外，我們南區職安中心也協助在個案來做釐清。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，爆炸原因檢警還在調查嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：消防鑑定都還沒出來，勞檢報告也還沒做，高雄市勞工局依照職業安全衛生實施規則第一百八十條就已經先開罰了，我覺得這個很奇怪嘛！"],["許部長銘春：應該是先停工，委員，我知道是先停工，他是說後續將會引用剛剛您講的那個條文來開罰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，他已經開罰了。"],["許部長銘春：已經開罰了嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我是職安署署長，以一般的作業流程來說，在災害發生後，我要做細部調查分析，調查分析確定了職災的基本原因、直接原因跟間接原因之後，才做後續的裁罰跟處置。當然，媒體會詢問案子的概況跟後續可能開罰的狀況，所以應該是地方政府針對目前這個個案先做初步的說明，整個行政程序還是依照標準作業流程來進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們今年1月時的春安檢查報告，連螺絲有沒有拴緊你們都會看，這種會造成大爆炸的環境問題，我們3年檢查14次了都沒有發現嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分，其實我們之前去做，之前高雄市去做了檢查，我所瞭解的就是好像是針對教育訓練不足，還有堆高機，但是好像沒有針對這個，這個如果像他們所講的是降溫的控制系統故障，這個就應該是平常在相關機器的管理上要注意……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你們每一年都有勞動檢查方針嘛，今年的總共有19頁，每一年都有檢查的方向及作法，你們的報告都是複製貼上，然後都沒有去追蹤，就隨便做嗎？碰到意外的時候再來檢討？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有！我們每年所檢查的那個都會追蹤，也會去做複查，然後做原因的分析，之後再看看後續如何來強化相關的檢查策略。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，佳豐鋁業爆炸跟小港海光煉鋼廠搬運爐渣引水蒸氣爆炸，還有明揚大火，都是一個縮影，我想我們要把勞檢做得確實一點，不要讓業者存有僥倖的心態，好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：當然、當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請部長這邊多加強。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外我還有一個問題，目前移工的問題是世界的一個趨勢，根據日本國際協力機構預測，日本必須在2040年前將外國移工的數量從目前的205萬人增加至674萬人，5年內要把技術勞工、簽證移工增加1倍，超過80萬人，面對日本搶人大作戰，目前我國的政策移工留才久用為主，我們有沒有準備要檢討跟進？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分其實是日本跟進我們，他是把實習生轉成中階技術人力，就是我們移工在前年開始推的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在的問題是他們現在擴大嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：就是把實習生轉成中階技術人力……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們到時候會不會招不到人，或者是我們的人才流失，我現在重點在這裡。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會！"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是誰學誰的問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：不會！我跟委員報告，我現在的中階技術人力，就是移工留才久用方案，我們的成效其實非常好，我現在到2月底已經二萬五千多人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不需要去管他？我們自己就可以……"],["許部長銘春：不是不需要去管他，我的意思是說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你自己很有信心，我們的人不會被拉走就對了？"],["許部長銘春：第一個，我要跟委員說明，對於我們的移工留才久用我相當有信心，我一定會達標……"],["邱委員鎮軍：萬一真的到時候跑掉了呢？"],["許部長銘春：不會。第二個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你確定不會啊？"],["許部長銘春：不是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：確定嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，因為這都是已經有技術的人，也有相當的薪資。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我記得以前都是我們培養人然後被日本拉走，這個問題在這裡……"],["許部長銘春：而且我跟委員說明，他轉中階，他可以攜眷來臺灣，所以這個跑掉……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們對我們自己的政策很有信心，也就是說我們有信心，這些技術移工不會被拉走，人才不會流失？"],["許部長銘春：因為他願意轉，就是他希望留在這裡。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我今天也提出這個問題，是希望我們勞動部也是要多關注這個問題。"],["許部長銘春：會、會、會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要等事情發生的時候，我們再來解決，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，現在我們的移民跟人口政策，就是國發會跟其他5個部會一起定時在檢討，包括移工政策，也是裡面的重要項目之一，所以我們都會隨時去關注。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我記得之前有提到一個叫做新經濟移民法，這個部分我們有沒有在討論要讓它復活？"],["許部長銘春：新經濟移民法的權責機關是在國發會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當時是好像勞動部反對，是吧？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我們沒有反對，那時候就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對於這種議題，我們有沒有準備一個作法，或者是把新經濟移民法完成？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這後來是用攬才專法，它原來是新經濟移民法，可是因為可能修法方面有一些過程不是很順利，後來它就用攬才專法，同樣達到留才攬才的目的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，部長，我這樣講，我們現在少子化缺工的問題是非常嚴重的，有關移工的政策，我希望要成為國內人口政策的一環，這樣才為我們以後的勞動力能夠多添一個保障，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.738468750000003,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.99534375,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.72034375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.032218750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.54221875,"end":25.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.33909375,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.824093750000003,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.69284375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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09:53:31","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":647,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:53:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:42:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時42分）主席，麻煩請法務部黃次長跟數發部李次長。"],["主席：請法務部黃次長及數發部李懷仁政務次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：兩位好。從今年以來人工智慧AI就是非常紅的一個問題，其實這個不是只有現在才出現，之前就出現Deepfake深度造假這樣的狀況出現，甚至在網路上面的影片，如果沒有跟你講這個是造假，你根本就看不出來這個是假的，完全就是跟街景等等什麼東西都一模一樣，所以現在想要先請問法務部次長，AI生成的作品有沒有著作權？"],["黃次長謀信：這是個法律問題，所以這部分我目前還沒有一個確定答案，因為它是個新的法律問題，可能要等到實務見解形成一定的固定見解之後，才能回答委員的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，另外一個就是我剛剛講的，AI現在產生的影片跟真的拍的影片幾乎是一模一樣，這些將來能不能當作在訴訟上的法律證據？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在相關的，只要是證據，它有證據能力，在訴訟法上都是可以當證據能力、都是有證據能力的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是，因為我以前也是從法院來的，法院在看這些影片的時候，以前是影片為證，像現在大部分的警察機關在辦案子的時候，很多都是從監視器來破案，監視器也是影片，那麼AI將來生成的影片幾乎就跟拍的影片一樣的時候，請問如何去分辨呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果它是透過AI偽造、變造，當然在法律上就沒有證據能力了，如果它不是偽造、變造的……"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是說如何檢視它是不是偽造、變造？如果是偽造、變造，我們明知它是偽造、變造，那當然沒問題啊！問題是他拿出來的影片跟拍的一模一樣，跟實際的錄影一模一樣時，你如何去辨識它是偽造跟變造呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，所以現在我們法務部所屬的調查局就有相關鑑識上的能力及購買相關鑑識上的器材，在技術上，我們調查局已經對外宣稱很多次了，它是有能力去鑑識出是不是AI偽造的相關影片。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為現在有能力，但是AI的技術一直在提升，大數據的速度一直非常快地在進化，可能三個月前跟三個月後拍的影片已經完全不一樣了。"],["黃次長謀信：我完全贊同委員所說。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你現在有能力，不代表將來有能力，法務部調查局今天有人來嗎？"],["主席：請調查局。"],["吳委員秉叡：何處長，你要不要來幫忙講一下？你現在有能力，代表將來繼續有這方面的能力嗎？"],["何處長復生：跟委員報告，我們確實有採購AI的偵測軟體，但是目前它還是有受限制，偵測成功率大概只有八成而已。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，所以我就舉一個例子，將來法院的鑑識，我如果主張這個影片是偽造的，你如何鑑別它是不是偽造？技術會越來越進步，AI的技術也會越來越進步，因為人工智慧會一直累積，累積到後面比人還……我記得我年輕的時候，那時候談到下棋，一開始電腦是下不贏人的，到後來最厲害、全世界第一名的都下不贏電腦，這個只是人工智慧初步的開始，我今天早上看到一個影片怵目驚心，他就拍一個街景，跟街景一模一樣，最後跟你講答案，說這個是AI做的，跟街景無關，但是它做出來就是某一個路口，連紅綠燈、光影變化、下雨的時候，那個燈光反射全部都一模一樣，跟實景一模一樣。","我現在針對這部分就是要請教你跟李次長，這個AI生成越來越厲害，將來在防詐方面，你們有沒有什麼想法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛才委員提到鑑識的問題，現在AI犯罪技術更加發達，未來在法庭上，法院也委託更具專業的相關AI技術人員去做鑑識，這是第一點。第二點，有關於本部就AI方面的努力，法制面上，我們去年在刑法或者是相關的法令，它都有做AI特別法的規定……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，何處長先請回座。"],["黃次長謀信：所以就技術上，像我們今天也跟大院報告，無論是高檢署也好，無論是調查局也好，已經就相關AI的偵蒐工具或相關的分析工具有做一些採購上的升級，希望透過人員的訓練、技術上面的提升以及設備上的提升來對付AI犯罪。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長，我只是先提醒你們要注意這個事情，我舉個例子，現在大家的手機都這麼方便，將來手機AI已經可以弄到跟本人一模一樣的人在跟你講話，如果一個老人家接到他的孫子打電話來，然後就是用視訊，本人的聲音也一模一樣，相片也一模一樣，來跟老人哭訴說他現在遇到什麼樣的困難，立刻需要匯款，換過來講，你說你有這麼高的技術，問題是一般的人沒有，他如何去判斷、如何去分辨？今天的報告裡面也有單位講說我們每一個人要加強人工智慧，對於資訊的判斷能力，我覺得方向是對，但問題是現在技術的進步實在速度太快，每一個人的能力跟一個國家、一個組織的能力當然是不一樣的。李次長，你有什麼樣的看法？"],["李次長懷仁：是，謝謝委員。從技術面來看，目前各國包含美國、歐盟的人工基本法或人工法規開始，都對AI生成的部分要求要準備往強制加上生成標籤的方向來製作，也就是說，未來各國的法規如果通過，包括臺灣可能在人工基本法也會有這樣的考慮，就是未來人工智慧生成的內容必須要加上標籤作為辨識，包括來源、包括製作的方向。另外，在打詐專法的部分，數位部參與的部分，我們也在討論並推動這個方向，就是把人工智慧生成的內容用在網路廣告上面必須要強制揭露這件事情。如果委員有注意到的話，YouTube最近已經有開始新的政策，YouTube上面的影片如果使用人工智慧生成，必須強制揭露。"],["吳委員秉叡：它如果沒有強制揭露，或是強制揭露後到時候會不會又有人講說這個是不是又違反了什麼言論自由或其他方面的講法？臺灣很容易就發生這樣的講法。"],["李次長懷仁：對，揭露只是說你必須告訴大家這個是用什麼製作，讓大家判斷這個的來源是什麼、是不是真人或者是人工智慧，讓大家注意加強判斷這件事情，並沒有去強制要求你的內容不可以怎麼樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外就是加強的時候，如果他不遵守，有什麼辦法呢？"],["李次長懷仁：打詐專法的部分罰則，我們還在跟各部會討論，但是以YouTube等社群平臺來說，只要你不揭露，他們就強制下架。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請加油，因為現在AI的技術，我認為速度會非常快，一日千里。兩位請回座。","請我們金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請金管會黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委，我要跟您再次提醒，據我們辦公室的統計，到3月22號禮拜五，即上個禮拜五下班的時候，00940所謂的自救會，即在Meta上面的自救會成員達到22萬2,000人，22萬2,000人！但是00940事實上根本都還沒有建倉完成，它根本就還沒有開始交易，就有22萬2,000人的自救會成員，你有沒有想要去瞭解這裡面到底在幹嘛？一個還沒有上市的產品，自救會就已經二十二萬多人了，是不是準備要鬧事？你會不會覺得有這樣的可能性？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員提醒這個資訊，您長期對這個事情的關心，我想我們不論對ETF的發行或是投資人的權益都非常重視，那您關心的自救會，我們要瞭解一下它的訴求是什麼。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！我是覺得你光是只有瞭解夠嗎？因為現在資訊的時代，它要號召人很容易，然後它利用資訊的落差，譬如參加這個社團的人，到時候講了什麼，你來不及，因為人數這麼多，你記不記得過去曾經有一個負油價事件？"],["黃主任委員天牧：元大石油正2。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，導致非常多的人在金管會的門口，自救會的成員在那邊抗議很久，你要記得這個前車之鑑。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然，那個不是你們的錯，但是問題是，他就是要怪到你身上來，常常就是這樣子，這個東西事實上是一個投資產品，應該要去瞭解它的投資完整資訊，有賺有賠，很不可思議的是，在時間上面，這個東西都還沒上市，現在事實上是它在上市前，要先建倉，建倉完成之後才發行，那時候投資才會有賺有賠，現在連這個都還沒有完成，自救會就已經開始在搞了，而且人數這麼多，22萬2,000人！所以我很憂慮這個後面不知道會發生什麼樣的因素，我覺得你們應該有必要詳細去瞭解。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，我們會密切注意這個事情的發展。"],["吳委員秉叡：各部會之間應該橫向聯絡，如果有需要協助的，應該要請各部會之間互相幫忙。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員關心，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝，加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請賴士葆賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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揭露只是說你必須告訴大家你這個是用什麼製作讓大家判斷說這個的來源是什麼是不是真人或者是他成功製作讓大家足以加強判斷這件事情並沒有去強制要求說你的內容不可以怎麼樣"},{"start":463.974,"end":464.495,"text":"請金管會的黃主委"},{"start":494.399,"end":509.669,"text":"委員長朱委我要跟您再次提醒到我們辦公室的統計到3月22日禮拜五上個禮拜五下班的時候00940所謂的自救會在Meta上面的自救會他的自救會成員達到22萬2000人"},{"start":512.19,"end":536.243,"text":"二十二萬兩千人但是00940那事實上根本就還沒有建倉完成嘛他根本就還沒有開始交易就有二十二萬兩千人的自救會成員那你有沒有想要去了解說這裡面到底在幹嘛一個還沒有上市的市場然後就還沒有上市的產品自救會就已經二十二萬多人了是不是準備要鬧事啊你會不會覺得他有這樣的可能性啊"},{"start":537.826,"end":552.625,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這個資訊,您長期對這個事情的關心。我想我們對這個,不論ETF的發行或是投資者的權益都非常重視。那您關心的,這就會我們要了解一下它的訴求是什麼。"},{"start":553.855,"end":576.217,"text":"對啊我是覺得你光是只有了解夠嗎?因為現在資訊的時代他要號召人很容易然後他利用資訊的落差比如參加這個社團的人他到時候講了什麼你來不及因為人數這麼多你記不記得過去曾經有一個負油價事件原來是有這樣的人對啊導致了非常多的人在金管會的門口"},{"start":578.12,"end":602.743,"text":"那個自救會的成員在那邊抗議很久,你要記得這個前車之鑒。當然那個不是你們的錯,但是問題是,他就是要怪到你身上來。常常就是這樣子,這個東西他事實上是一個投資產品,那應該要去了解他的投資的完整的資訊,有賺有賠。那很不可思議的是,他時間上面這個東西都還沒上市。"},{"start":604.079,"end":616.208,"text":"現在事實上是要上市之前要先建倉建倉完成之後才發行那時候才會有投資才會有賺有賠現在連這個都還沒有完成自救會就已經開始在搞了而且人數這麼多22萬2000人"},{"start":619.229,"end":636.741,"text":"所以我很憂慮這個後面不知道會發生什麼樣子的因素我覺得你們應該有必要要詳細去瞭解瞭解我們會密切注意這個事情的發展然後也各部會之間應該橫向聯絡如果有需要協助的醫療不要請各部會之間互相幫忙瞭解好謝謝加油謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b2a8b91a4efa55bde0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6fac1ac43399a4bcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:42:18 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葛門蘭的海紀其實就是針對於長期以來幾千年祖先留下來的海洋的文化甚至保育族是說我們要看看今年我們海洋的選到海地裡面去看海洋的物種的變化然後來訂定我們今年捕魚的"},{"start":242.774,"end":243.794,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":268.541,"end":268.981,"text":"海洋保育法草案公聽會"},{"start":290.353,"end":290.473,"text":"主席"},{"start":310.926,"end":335.603,"text":"對地方並不了解所以我們希望在地方也要有一些地方縣市層級的審議會組織在你中央並沒有注意到的規範在地方上可以來作為我們地方上尤其是原住民族各族群的文化的延續跟文化的智慧最後我必須要提醒的是我的建議"},{"start":336.784,"end":361.755,"text":"因為我知道朝委在禮拜四就要排定條文的審查了是不是不要那麼快速如果朝委你那麼快速的要逐條審查的話我相信第一沒有辦法把原住民族傳統的智慧海洋智慧把它放進去第二呢你們也並沒有依照原籍法到各個部落去開說明會而徵詢各個部落海洋文化的族人的同意"},{"start":362.495,"end":363.156,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":377.312,"end":378.113,"text":"海峽管域分屬各個不同的目的事業主管機關雖然我們現在把這個海域的這個圖資"},{"start":397.073,"end":397.493,"text":"海保法"},{"start":423.599,"end":447.188,"text":"在制定現在我們要逐條討論之前有跟原民會做充分的討論你們原民會有提供充分的意見嗎當時我們也有招開我們也有共同招開共同來出席這個會議只是出席我們也有提供一些我們的意見那為什麼暫現在海保法行政院出來的版本完全沒有原住民的思維"},{"start":448.288,"end":471.604,"text":"其實他在總說明裡面的確有提到他只有講尊重兩個字可是在條文裡面並沒有啊所以召委本席也是內政委員會的召委真的誠心的建議您禮拜四不要逐條的討論否則的話我想我們也會行政程序來做一些交流然後甚至於不惜表決動員我們都不應該這麼儘快這麼草率的逐條討論以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b5115e157291f5944e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a67dc0fecf33e734415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:37:13 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我們有請我們的部長 請許部長林委員好 部長好我今天要幫一群人 就是我們的幼兒園"},{"start":24.632,"end":26.433,"text":"委員長或老師、教保人員"},{"start":52.314,"end":76.371,"text":"部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開"},{"start":78.849,"end":91.415,"text":"他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假"},{"start":93.081,"end":117.224,"text":"所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊"},{"start":118.775,"end":147.442,"text":"那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假"},{"start":148.383,"end":165.704,"text":"獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情"},{"start":166.516,"end":194.593,"text":"那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼"},{"start":196.582,"end":217.191,"text":"報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有"},{"start":217.811,"end":245.068,"text":"有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況"},{"start":247.27,"end":273.128,"text":"委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講"},{"start":279.686,"end":293.364,"text":"針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間"},{"start":296.367,"end":324.285,"text":"當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方"},{"start":328.313,"end":353.526,"text":"這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的"},{"start":355.74,"end":382.299,"text":"紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的"},{"start":383.561,"end":407.408,"text":"所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的"},{"start":407.913,"end":419.616,"text":"十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論"},{"start":433.439,"end":442.775,"text":"上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊"},{"start":443.857,"end":469.369,"text":"基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有"},{"start":470.589,"end":494.461,"text":"右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊"},{"start":495.621,"end":523.797,"text":"然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關"},{"start":524.918,"end":534.409,"text":"那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了"},{"start":540.697,"end":558.016,"text":"這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我"},{"start":560.083,"end":579.137,"text":"報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能"},{"start":581.859,"end":604.754,"text":"同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員"}]}},{"id":"150313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b3c4a7897108ea509cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6f6bc0ca9412fb4e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:39:51 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謝謝我們主席喔一樣請我們部長好我們部長好部長有關今天的花東快速公路建設特別條例草案的處理意見報告那剛剛其實我們副總統特別講的有關我們的回應的第5點有提到說本條例之立法恐產生立法權干預行政權之憲法爭議我認為這個對我們立法院是極度的不尊重"},{"start":29.031,"end":52.567,"text":"在這邊必須要提出抗議那其實這個法院通過了許多的法條無論是教育、附幼或者是勞保、健保等等的每一個法案其實都是在希望政府能夠在預算上面去扶國立民這些法條其實都是會增加政府的預算只是他可能沒有明確的寫出一個金額而已"},{"start":53.027,"end":70.847,"text":"因此這個是法律案跟我們提出的建法第17條這個預算案的情況是完全不一樣的也希望我們的行政部門充分尊重我們的立法部門以上是我的意見謝謝那沒關係我沒關係這個是我個人的意見我提出我的抗議"},{"start":72.288,"end":94.753,"text":"那前幾天我們一樣我知道我們對於偏鄉的交通偏鄉的民眾最痛的就是交通的問題那上禮拜非常感謝行政院針對台六四二線延伸萬里金山的快速道路有這個國發會有核定的嘛對不對但是裡面有特別提到說"},{"start":96.053,"end":112.625,"text":"延伸到萬里段憂心施作那我想在這邊請教部長那金山的部分呢有沒有具體的期程的確過去在討論是這一段是應該會延續還會繼續做但目前先到萬里那我們後續的重規是一起做嗎"},{"start":114.895,"end":133.344,"text":"後續現在先先因為合定是在前面這一段嘛所以這一段做中規那一段的可行性繼續來做阿如果可行的話就接下來這樣部長我知道審議不是在你我們把整份可行性送國會審查嗎我們是一起送的那"},{"start":134.793,"end":148.242,"text":"分階段來施作是國發會合定的決定但是行政議題我希望部長還是能夠站在我們交通部的立場來告訴國發會千萬不要陷賴清德總統與不義"},{"start":150.203,"end":169.802,"text":"你應該非常清楚這句話的意思我們現在台六二有兩個延伸的計畫一個是到萬里金山一個是到宜蘭現在我們國發會核定的居然是只有到萬里優先施作那我們的民眾會怎麼想"},{"start":172.052,"end":186.278,"text":"民眾會不會想難道我們這條路只開到我們的賴清德總統的老家嗎?民眾會有這樣子的疑慮嗎?我想部長非常的清楚所以說我希望我們交通部還是要堅定我們的立場"},{"start":187.598,"end":207.544,"text":"萬里段當然要優先來施作但是絕對不能夠讓我們的人民認為我們這條台六二的延伸計畫只做到賴清的老家的門口還要拜託我們交通部後續持續爭取無論是金山還是宜蘭的東西的這個台六二的延伸務必"},{"start":208.884,"end":216.226,"text":"要有明確的期程讓我們地方民眾來安心請問部長可以做到嗎?我想說後續就是未來在北韓的這些臺俄的這些改善"},{"start":231.149,"end":253.479,"text":"未來要不要到金山本來我們的計劃也是有這樣的計劃那後續現在合併到萬里那我們後面萬里到金山這一段就公路局會持續來進行好我們持續來努力好不好我們希望我們是同一個立場那第二個那合併計劃也有提到呃這個台六二的這個延伸可能會衝擊到國一大華系統交流道的一些交通影響嘛"},{"start":254.079,"end":278.489,"text":"那記得在大概前年的時候那國發會就有核定了系指國道1號系指到大華的這個到拓寬以及相關的集產道路的改善計畫嘛那兩年過去了那我們後續有沒有具體的一個期程能夠來向我們地方的民眾來說明因為其實在這次計畫也有特別提到嘛我們改善計畫必須要加快進行"},{"start":280.788,"end":300.569,"text":"那個可行性我們支持啊的確這一段是比較賽車的部分是所以我們現在可行性已經快完成了那我們趕快這個按照我們行政程序來進行從也像可行性綜合規劃這樣來進行有沒有具體的取證大概能夠說一下這樣子什麼時候完成了嗎"},{"start":302.932,"end":302.952,"text":"第3個"},{"start":327.912,"end":331.015,"text":"李昆哲召委公共運輸票價調漲"},{"start":346.92,"end":347.08,"text":"我們現在113到119有個643"},{"start":369.732,"end":396.361,"text":"來補助這個公車變成電動公車這個每年都有計畫我想如果未來在我表達就是說他們遇到的問題跟高鐵台鐵一樣這些都是他們的營運成本的提升那我們絕對不是只有考慮到現在台鐵高鐵因為現在電動公車跟電動的計程車的比例也越來越高我們後續也要想辦法針對這部分的成本上升來提出一些補貼之類的一些想法"},{"start":396.561,"end":416.486,"text":"他們一般會經過基本費利的調整現在是國道科研也提出來了我想後續他們在固定的時間內會提出票價費利的調整或者是計程車這個也不要忘記了好不好麻煩部長我直接提醒我們交通部注意到這一點而已好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b2cd06b0679abc761cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a6c85f38e9dc6d1ac45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:32:05 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那我們現在就回歸到交通建設相關的這樣的一個重要的議題那每一位委員對於交通建設對於自己選區的這樣的一個大眾的安全辯解的這樣一個運輸系統大家都是希望能夠為選區來極力的爭取但是"},{"start":56.067,"end":76.869,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":76.969,"end":98.334,"text":"包括環境影響評估包括環差評估以及包括財務評估來部長簡單說明一下目前我們所有的個案計劃就單項的計劃都是按照行政院中長期計劃的審議要對當然部長我先提醒當然要可行性評估之後"},{"start":98.974,"end":116.909,"text":"通過再來做細部的規劃再來做環評再來做審核再來做相關的預算的一個編列那我們對於花東的這樣的一個交通建設我們有胡坤祺委員徐貞蔚委員以及啊"},{"start":118.359,"end":138.454,"text":"非常認真的蕭美琴在擔任立委的時候都為花東的交通建設全心全力的在努力那這幾年政府對於花東的交通建設有做什麼事情嗎來基本說明一下我們現在在花東我舉幾個例子第一個梳化改是在我們完成就是"},{"start":138.814,"end":166.032,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":166.032,"end":183.49,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":183.49,"end":205.623,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":205.683,"end":226.109,"text":"每一個委員的這個服務區每一個個案計畫都是以這樣的一個程序所以政府在過去幾年那經由傅昆齊委員徐貞蔚委員以及蕭美琦委員他們的共同的一個努力所以對花東的交通資源也是一再的投入那其實部長我記得105年的時候"},{"start":227.97,"end":243.333,"text":"那馬英九時代其實就提過相關的花東快的可行性評估很可惜當時沒有通過但是到109年蔡政府又重啟這個可行性評估目前的進度來說明一下是"},{"start":243.934,"end":261.953,"text":"的確這個花東快過去真的是已經停止了那我們現在就是透過立法院的決議現在109年10月我們就重啟可行性那今年的8月會完成這個可行性的報告那這個可行性報告裡面就針對它的路廊"},{"start":262.654,"end":262.894,"text":"﹑李昆澤"},{"start":281.219,"end":308.058,"text":"選民支持的立法委員我們當任立委都有對於憲政體制運作的基本的這樣的一個知識那我們對於三權分立這樣的一個民主政治的基本原則大家也都非常的清楚那我們現在更必須來向社會大眾說明說我們也清楚相關的這樣的一個事前的嚴謹的這樣的一個評估是必要的不管是"},{"start":308.899,"end":329.94,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":330.265,"end":330.345,"text":"﹚李昆澤﹚"},{"start":346.365,"end":359.434,"text":"我想這句話我們所有的委員大家共同來思考那不然我們現在必須要提到我們相關的有關於台鐵高鐵跟國道客運相關客運是否會有漲價的這樣的一個議題那當然"},{"start":361.937,"end":390.418,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":390.538,"end":408.525,"text":"另外高鐵公司在4月份也會提出相關的票價的一個基準那台鐵公司預計在4月份也會提出相關的這樣的議程的討論那也因為時間的關係請部長最後簡單的說明一下我們對於漲價交通部基本的原則是"},{"start":409.245,"end":436.165,"text":"國道科因為它18年沒漲那最近它也面臨到很多經營的困境所以我們基本上是會畢竟把它送到我們的交通費力審議委員會但是我們現在處理言者是這樣端錢因為現在有TPAS可以吸收所以民眾不影響不大那中長程的部分我們目前是朝向這一個部分補貼的方式不要讓它調太高那高鐵跟台鐵他們是因應這一個"},{"start":436.886,"end":452.585,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":452.705,"end":467.435,"text":"所以現在大概台鐵公司現在在處理方案可能4月份可能也會來不及他們可能會這個相關細節的討論那高鐵公司只是談出來他也還沒有一個詳細的一個分析"},{"start":468.075,"end":496.334,"text":" 那我們是希望說這個台鐵公司跟高鐵公司後續透過這個董事會的一個程序然後跟所謂的現在合定的費率跟他的票價多少我們到時候會做一個討論那現在我們從時間去推這個決定應該會在今年下半年以後時間的關係那我們看到高鐵台鐵以及客運的搭乘人數每天將近400萬"},{"start":498.353,"end":527.278,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":527.398,"end":547.332,"text":"在過去我們都認為我一再的提出高鐵的問題是運量的問題而不是票價的問題所以在這幾年跟交通部王部長我們的共同努力推動很多的優惠的這樣的一個方案例如說這個找鳥優惠啦學生票啦敬老愛心孩童這個部分"},{"start":548.613,"end":570.653,"text":"這些優待的票種就大概占了3乘2的這樣的一個達成率更別說自由座也大概占了3成大概就有6成是屬於這種我們推動這種優惠票價因為能夠提升運量也是讓高鐵能夠穩定成長他的營收的一個重要的元素所以有關於高鐵的產價部長也必須要審慎的思考"},{"start":570.913,"end":571.073,"text":"﹚李昆澤"},{"start":600.313,"end":601.246,"text":"好謝謝李昆澤委員"}]}},{"id":"150310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b0f897734d77792d48506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d462c7c12fd997b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:29:52 - 09:42:39","影片長度":"00:12:47","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":767,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:42:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:29:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時29分）謝謝主席。請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我請教，因為經濟部長王美花說，漲電價就調漲物價是沒有道理的，所以他喊話說，國內業者不應以漲電價為由來調漲物價，請問你認為這樣的喊話有約束力嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：物價的漲我們原則上尊重市場制度，他講的應該是漲幅，不應該惡意去漲，他應該是這種意思。"],["林委員德福：原本台電拿北部連鎖的這些烘焙坊來當案例，對外聲稱每個月用電700度以下，大約每日開銷增加2塊、2元，結果後來又改口說，如果具有烘焙設備，用電較高的麵包店，試算每個月增加將近1萬905元，請問主計長，政府的政策說明是不是根本把老百姓當傻瓜，不斷在玩數字遊戲，企圖來粉飾太平？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，事實上經濟部的方案規劃得很詳細，小商店的話，它是700度以內的，調整百分之三，700度到1,500度的，就超額部分調整百分之五，對真正的一些小店舖……"],["林委員德福：我一直認為政府是不是無知？不知民間疾苦，才會這樣的無知？"],["朱主計長澤民：不會啦！因為他知道有些小店舖的生意沒有那麼大，所以那些比較小的店舖它的調幅比較低，用電3,000度以上的，超過的那一個部分，就調整百分之十，所以就有考慮那個情況。"],["林委員德福：主計長，台電昨天發布新聞稿表示，台電扮演穩住物價的角色，如果不是前兩年當消波塊吸收成本，抵擋全球燃料價格飆漲所引發的通膨巨浪，國內整個通膨的情形、情勢會更加的嚴峻，我請問主計長，對於台電是抵擋通膨巨浪的消波塊的說法，你認為民眾能夠完全接受嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：的確，跟國外比較起來，有些國家的電費調整百分之八十，也有調整百分之三十、四十以上的都有，那我們在前一些時候沒有調整，但是台電的成本增加，像燃煤的……"],["林委員德福：增加的你全部都是用歲計賸餘，甚至於我們每一年超徵的，然後來補貼它，這個還是全民的。"],["朱主計長澤民：增加的金額比歲計賸餘去挹注它多很多。"],["林委員德福：歲計賸餘你就是用超徵的去補助啊！對不對？一共補助多少？你告訴我。"],["朱主計長澤民：112是有……"],["林委員德福：這也是人民的血汗錢，拜託！"],["朱主計長澤民：112是有2,000億，113有編1,000億……"],["林委員德福：對啊！2,000億、1,000億就3,000億了。"],["朱主計長澤民：現在又再編1,000億，總共有4,000億……"],["林委員德福：現在還虧空那麼多。"],["朱主計長澤民：可是台電的虧損每年就是有兩千、三千億，連續好幾年……"],["林委員德福：主計長，你也很清楚啦！電價審議委員會幾乎每一次就是……反正我就是不漲，為什麼？因為適逢選舉、選舉考量，現在跟選舉距離比較長，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，那一段期間因為國際的情勢，我們的物價也有一個波動，尤其煤跟各種大宗物資增加，所以經濟部才說有消波堤，暫時讓它避免……將來再緩慢的上升。"],["林委員德福：主計長，因為台電前一段時間沒有漲價，所以才不會造成整個通膨，抗通膨的功勞全部攬在它一身，企圖來合理化漲電價，這次要漲，說實在本席是無法認同，因為這幾年提到電力吃緊，台電每次都說用電無虞，就是一定有電，經濟部更是拿風電、太陽能發電來做擋箭牌，為什麼現在又說台電撐不下去了呢？前後顛倒嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為現在如果沒有漲的話，台電還是每年支大於收，長此下去它的那個……"],["林委員德福：就是能源政策的錯誤，大家很清楚啊！對不對？你把所有的核電，把最經濟、最乾淨的電全部處理掉，然後用離岸風電、用光電，用一些可能耗成本很高的這些電，最嚴重的是什麼？你看離岸風電，我們夏天沒有風，結果離岸風電根本就不能轉，冬天不需要那麼多電，但是風電一直轉，轉多少要吸收多少啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：因為用核能，後端的處理成本將會很高，委員您講風扇好像轉得很小……"],["林委員德福：後端處理成本很高？現在全世界都把核電廠、核電變成綠能，只有你在這樣講，對不對？主計長，全球央行都在暗示未來幾個月可能會降息，全球的央行都在降息，結果我們央行上個禮拜四決議提起升息半碼，把基準利率調整至2008年以來最高的水準，當然楊總裁表示這個決定是為了抑制國內通膨預期的心理。主計長，你也是理監事成員之一……"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，我是監事。"],["林委員德福：請問你認同楊總裁表示決定升息是為了抑制國內通膨預期心理的理由嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我尊重總裁的意見，不過我跟委員報告，我是監事會主席，央行的監事，根據央行的法令規定，監事只能管財務，不適合管政策。"],["林委員德福：問題是你要瞭解啊！你要提出一些看法，為什麼會出現通膨預期的心理，到底是誰有這種預期的心理？是民眾嗎？還是企業、還是政府？這種心態的狀況，光是升息就能完全來抑制嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，所謂的預期心理，一般是指私經濟部門。"],["林委員德福：是經濟部門？"],["朱主計長澤民：私經濟部門，就是您講的民眾跟企業。"],["林委員德福：對啊！主計長，央行總裁表示央行預測今年消費者物價指數CPI年增率是2.16%，是以平均電價10%的漲幅來估算，若未來電價調升幅度更大，的確不排除CPI增幅會再擴大。主計長先前就說電價漲一成，至少會直接影響CPI 0.12%，也就是CPI考量電價下，則年增率大概接近2%，請問為什麼央行會出現預測今年CPI年增率會到2.16%？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，我講0.12%，那個0.12%是只有需求面，但是它供給面、廠商的成本，因為我們在做估計的時候，不曉得它的調幅是多少，所以我們那一個項沒有估在裡面，我在報告裡面也有提到……"],["林委員德福：因為央行的預測跟你們的預測足足差了0.2%，是不是已經把廠商的轉嫁至消費者間影響的部分都算在內？是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：央行已經把成本面算在裡面，當時我只講需求面，沒有講成本面，現在它的方案確定了以後，我們的估計大概跟央行很接近，他們是2.16%，我們大概是2.03%左右，大概只差0.1個百分點左右。"],["林委員德福：因為電價一漲百物皆漲，而且再加上利率的調升再半碼，其實等於是一隻牛剝很多層皮。主計長，通膨預期的變動影響實質經濟生活以及物價的穩定，所以對通膨預期心理的管理是貨幣政策需要考量的一大重點，請問央行這次升息利率調升，所持的理論依據是不是完全依照泰勒法則？是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，事實上央行的調整，後來在隔天行政院有開會，對有一些情況是不調的，像所謂的既有的貸款或者是有關於社會福利機構、學校，那些是不調的。政策性的，它就不調。"],["林委員德福：你看，因為電價要漲，包括所有的百物、萬物皆漲，像掛號費，而且包括臺鐵、高鐵、公路，客運等等，幾乎全面漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：掛號費的調整事實上從去年就開始，所以掛號費的調整對物價的衝擊不是想像中的那麼嚴重，因為它是……"],["林委員德福：沒有那麼嚴重？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為它是去年就開始……"],["林委員德福：但是民眾感受很深啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：去年就開始調整，對生病的人也許會感受嚴重，可是對整體的物價，因為去年就開始漲，所以物價指數是有限的，當然對個案可能會影響很多，而且因為掛號費是可以收也可以不收，由醫院決定。"],["林委員德福：因為主要就是萬物皆漲，唯獨只有薪水不漲……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！我們……"],["林委員德福：老百姓痛苦指數越飆越高，講實在話，你過去就是掩飾太平嘛！你剛剛講的消波塊這種操作方式，其實我們是希望薪資、薪水的所得要跟CPI物價上漲成正比，不然老百姓沒有賺那麼多錢，但是買的東西越來越少，因為你萬物皆漲，當然他們痛苦指數就越飆越高啊！是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：事實上基本工資以及公務人員的薪水和退休人員的退撫都有適當的調整。"],["林委員德福：適當調整？但是老百姓是痛苦指數越飆越高，所有受薪階級的都是如此，政府應該要全盤性的去考量，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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所以就有考慮那個情況"},{"start":146.986,"end":164.484,"text":"臺電昨天發布新聞稿表示臺電扮演穩住物價的角色如果不是前兩年來當消波塊吸收成本抵擋全球燃料價格的飆漲引發的通膨這些巨浪"},{"start":166.325,"end":194.692,"text":"國內整個通膨的情形啊情勢會更加的嚴峻那我請問主計長對於台電是這個抵擋通膨巨量的消波塊的說法你認為民眾能夠完全接受嗎的確的跟國外比較起來有些國家他的電費都調整百分之八十的都有也有調整百分之三、四十以上的都有的那我們在前些時候沒有一個調整啊"},{"start":195.272,"end":220.505,"text":"但是他們台電的那個成本增加像那個燃煤的增加增加你全部都是用稅計剩餘啊甚至於我們這個每年超徵的然後來補貼他這個還是全民的增加的那個金額比稅計剩餘去挹注他多很多稅計剩餘你就是用超徵的去補助啊對不對一共補助多少你告訴我"},{"start":220.965,"end":233.776,"text":"那個是這個一一二是有這是也是人民的血汗錢拜託一一二是有兩千億一一三有變一千億現在又變一千億怎麼會有四千億可是台電的虧損每年就是有兩三千億連續好幾年那個主計長你也很清楚啦電價審議委員會幾乎每一次就是反正我就是部長"},{"start":247.708,"end":271.617,"text":"為什麼?因為有適逢選舉選舉考量現在跟選舉距離比較長那個跟我有報告因為那一段期間因為國際的情勢那我們的那一個是什麼物價也有一個波動尤其那個煤啦電、煤啦各種大量物資增加所以用那一個所謂的"},{"start":272.598,"end":272.758,"text":"主席"},{"start":292.419,"end":308.617,"text":"這個抗通膨的功勞全部攬在他一身啦。企圖來合理化漲電價這次要漲說實在本席是無法認同因為這樣這幾年提到電力吃緊台電每次都說沒有用沒有"},{"start":310.475,"end":326.134,"text":"就是用電無虞啦就是一定有電啦經濟部更是拿個風電啦太陽能發電啦來做這個擋箭牌為什麼現在又說台電撐不下去了呢台電撐不下去了呢全部顛倒嘛"},{"start":327.976,"end":354.597,"text":"因為...你就是人員政策的錯誤啊大家很清楚啊對不對你把所有的這個核電全部都最經濟最乾淨的電全部把它處理掉然後你用離岸風電用光電然後用一些這個可能耗"},{"start":355.538,"end":374.804,"text":"議員會議員"},{"start":374.964,"end":385.211,"text":"那個用核能後端的處理成本將會很高,而委員您講說那個好像……後端處理很高,現在全世界都把能源、核電變成綠能,對不對,只有你在這樣講"},{"start":392.136,"end":406.949,"text":"對不對其實齁主計長全球齁主要你像我在講央行都在暗示未來幾個月可能會降息齁全球的央行都在降息結果我們央行上個禮拜四啊決議提起升息辦碼"},{"start":408.39,"end":434.588,"text":"把基準利率調整至2008年以來最高的水準當然楊總裁表示說這個決定是為了抑制國內通盤疫情的心理主計長你也是李監事成員之一啦我請問你認同楊總裁表示決定升席是為了抑制國內通盤的疫情心理的理由嗎"},{"start":438.571,"end":459.548,"text":"總裁的意見不過我跟委員報告一下我是監事會主席央行的監事根據央行的一個法令規定那我請問那我來規定監事只能管財務不適合管政策那你要提出一些看法為什麼會出現通膨疫情的心理這個到底是誰"},{"start":461.63,"end":482.261,"text":"有這種預期的心理是民眾嗎?還是企業?還是政府?這種心態的狀況光是升息就能完全來抑制嗎?我跟那個委員報告一下所謂的預期心理一般是指施經濟部門施經濟部門施經濟部門就是領獎的民眾跟那個企業對啊阿主計長"},{"start":489.724,"end":512.741,"text":"央行總裁表示央行預測今年消費者物價指數CPI年增率是2.16%是以平均電價10%的漲幅來估算若未來電價調升幅度更大的確不排除CPI增幅會再擴大主計長你先前你就說電價漲一層至少會直接影響CPI0.12%"},{"start":515.583,"end":543.414,"text":"也就是CPI考量電價下則年增率大概接近百分之二那請問為什麼央行會出現預測今年CPI那個我跟各位報告一下那個我講說0.12嘛那個0.12是只有那個需求面但是他供給面廠商的成本因為我們在做估計的時候不曉得他的那個條幅是多少所以我們那個項沒有估在裡面因為齁"},{"start":545.235,"end":568.069,"text":"央行的預測跟你們的預測齣齣差了0.2%是不是已經把廠商的轉嫁至消費者兼影響的部分都算在內?央行已經把成本面在裡面當初我只講需求面沒有講成本面現在他的方案是確定了以後我們的估計大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":568.629,"end":570.65,"text":"因為喔,電價一漲,百物皆漲,而且齁,你再加上這個利率的調升在半馬,其實齁"},{"start":588.962,"end":610.518,"text":"等於是一隻牛撥很多層皮啦 主計長通盤預期的變動影響實質、經濟生活以及物價的穩定所以對通盤預期心理的管理是貨幣政策需要考量一大的重點那請問要讓正式升息利率調升所持的理論依據是不是完全依照泰勒的法則是不是這樣子"},{"start":611.418,"end":632.927,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下事實上央行的一個調整後來在隔天行政院就有開會對某些那些情況他是不調的像那個所謂的既有的那個貸款或者是那個既有的那些或者是有關於那些社會福利機構學校"},{"start":634.548,"end":634.648,"text":"主席"},{"start":653.564,"end":674.787,"text":"等等啦!幾乎啦!全面漲!今天委員報告一下瓜惠的調整是從去年就開始所以瓜惠的調整啦他對物價的衝擊啊不是想像中的那麼嚴重沒有那麼嚴重喔但是民眾感受很深啊去年就開始因為對生病的人也許會感到嚴重"},{"start":675.747,"end":693.314,"text":"但是對整體的物價因為去年就開始漲所以物價指數是有限的當然對個案是可能會影響很多而且有些那個是他也不有些醫院因為公安會是可以收可以不收由醫院來決定"},{"start":695.066,"end":716.772,"text":"那個主計長主要就是萬物皆長那唯獨只有薪水不漲老百姓痛苦指數越飆越高講實在話你過去你就是掩飾太平嘛你剛剛講的消波塊這種操作方式其實我們是希望說這個你"},{"start":719.813,"end":736.926,"text":"新資、薪水的所得要跟你CPI就是物價上漲要成正比啊不然老百姓我沒有賺那麼多錢但是買的東西越來越少因為你萬物皆漲啊對不對當然他們痛苦指數就越飆越高啊"},{"start":737.706,"end":737.806,"text":"吳秉瑞 吳委員"}]}},{"id":"150309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bee254c990a08ba3b0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6ddd183cc71d874d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:05 - 09:42:17","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":552,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:42:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:33:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時33分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：張委員早安。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早安。主委，我們都常吃麵包，對不對？有吃過沒有經過烘焙的麵包嗎？你這輩子有沒有吃過沒有經過烘焙的麵包？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：跟委員報告，現在的麵包我越來越少吃，因為它澱粉比較高，醣份會增加，所以……但是還是有啦。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你看一下，經濟部和台電針對小店家、特別是麵包店會不會漲價，他們說用電每個月700度以下的北部連鎖烘焙坊，在調整電價以後一天才增了2塊錢，有這個可能嗎？一些民眾抗議這是跟一般民眾活在平行空間嗎？不食人間煙火嗎？天方夜譚嗎？可是經濟部用這樣的計算標準，大家要問，是當初算錯了嗎？受害者會是誰？麵包店受影響，對不對？另外一個受害者是消費者，因為麵包可能就會漲，是不是要趕快補破網？一天2塊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我看了經濟部的計算，它是說用比較少電的商家，主要是針對這個。"],["張委員啓楷：對，主委，後來它就承認了，台電都認了，它說電價這次調漲，如果有烘烤設備的麵包店，一個月是增加1萬951塊錢。","現在出現兩個問題：第一個，一般的麵包店如果一個月就增加了1萬951塊，羊毛出在羊身上，麵包就要漲了，對不對？第二，更離譜的事情是，經濟部跟台電怎麼可以講這些烘焙坊一天只增加2塊錢呢？你是像鴕鳥一樣，把頭埋在沙裡面，就認為沒有問題，還是惡意在導風向，讓人民誤解？所以我問你，有可能一個烘焙坊不要用到烤箱、用到烘烤嗎？麵包最簡單的定義是什麼？它就是一個經過烘烤的食品，以臺北連鎖的烘烤坊來講，如果是一個門市，它跟上游買麵包，它沒有中央廚房嗎？這個價格是不是都要往上走，對不對？這是不是要算進去？這不是誤導嗎？不是把頭埋在沙裡面嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為我們現在也在推動疫後振興條例及特別預算，有針對節能的部分，事實上經濟部也有講3月節能的部分有一些度數……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我知道，節能那一塊你要多努力。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以它可以改善……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你說的就是政府機關要跟人民活在一樣的空間裡面，不要被罵是天方夜譚、平行空間，怎麼可能一個烘焙坊一天只增加2塊錢？你後來也承認了，是1萬951，另外一個點很嚴重，你現在是拿來騙人民嗎？你沒有把上游算進去，烘焙坊如果是一個百貨公司的門市，向上游、中央廚房買，上游、中央廚房不會用到烘烤嗎？所以這個計算方式是錯誤的，對不對？既然是錯誤的，受害者會是麵包店、會是一般消費者，我們趕快補破網，好不好？你是行政院物價督導小組的成員，你要做一件事情，就是讓麵包店不要漲價，他們也是受害者，你們算錯了，要趕快去補破網，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個問題，我請教你，你是台積電的獨立董事，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，是法人代表，是國發基金的法人代表。"],["張委員啓楷：國發基金的法人代表？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：台積電這次也受到衝擊，一年要多花170億，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：台積電未來的走向一定全部都買綠電，它已經announce在2040年全部都要用綠電，所以變成台電對台積電的影響還是有，但是會越來越小，因為它直接買綠電。"],["張委員啓楷：今天還有一家比較特別的，在竹科裡面有一家「力森諾科」，專門生產硬碟及半導體，現在廠房要賣了、要關廠了，是不是印證了整個電價衝擊了很多科技業？所以剛才說麵包店受影響，對不對？一般的小店家受影響，民生當然受影響更大，所以我一直在高聲疾呼民生用電及小商店的用電不要漲，可是你們還是漲了，現在連科技業都受影響了，怎麼補救？要怎麼補破網？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，剛剛講到小店家的部分，透過疫後特別條例及特別預算怎麼樣讓這些小店家能節能減碳、更好，而且有一些輔導措施……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你趕快多努力……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我問一下國發基金的事情。我先肯定國發基金最近盈餘是不錯的，2021年盈餘了193億，2023年盈餘了288億，這方面是要肯定的，可是最近有些新興的投資是不是都一直在踩雷？剛剛兩位委員都提到這一點，裡面有一個很嚴重的……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個大部分都是2019年之前的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們來看三顧，好不好？三顧現在是嚴重到什麼程度？連日本的日商都說三顧把核心的技術都轉移到大陸去了，現在不是一直在講抗中保臺嗎？你現在不只沒有抗中保臺，還把臺灣人民的納稅錢洗到了中國大陸去。第二個，把人家日本的核心技術都洗到中國大陸去了，怎麼出現這種狀況呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：公司已經澄清了，沒有這樣的事情。公司已經做了澄清，沒有這樣的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你幫三顧講話，可是他們……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我沒有幫他們講話，是他們澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：日本的日商公司跟他們合作，人家都跟他們解約了，而且人家抗議它的核心技術已經出去了，有沒有？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：他們還在協商跟仲裁當中。"],["張委員啓楷：他們協商，可是這是一個事實啊！第一個，你們的某些錢、臺灣人民的納稅錢因為國發基金去投資，這家公司把人民的納稅錢一方面洗到大陸去，這是錢的問題，對不對？第二個，技術的問題，是日商抗議啊！人家的核心技術啊！所以我強調的是不只沒有抗中保臺、沒有保臺灣，錢還出去了，連日本的核心技術都出去了！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們也要求我們董事跟所有公司治理的相關企業一定要守法，基本上，如果要把技術洗到中國是違法的，所以這是不能做的，而公司也做了澄清，他們不會做違法的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你要繼續把這事情查清楚，好不好？因為日本都已經解約了嘛，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，我們一定會。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個是如興，你投資如興那麼多錢，當初政策評估的發言紀錄的錄音不見了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為以過去來講，政策審是沒有錄音的，從過去到現在。"],["張委員啓楷：也是沒有錄音？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：監察院都已經要糾正你們這一點了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，我們後續看要怎麼樣去針對這個問題來做一些補強。"],["張委員啓楷：如興的狀況也一樣嘛！臺灣人民的納稅錢有一部分洗到中國大陸去了嘛，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：也沒有啦！那個是董事長個人自己的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你去投資它，那他個人有問題，把人民納稅錢洗到中國大陸去啊！所以我剛剛說的兩個案都跟中國大陸有關係，一個還牽扯到日本的核心技術。另外，台灣奈微光不也是一樣的狀況嗎？技術跟資金也是都過去嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：奈微光……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我先……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那個已經澄清了。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，這樣好不好？我剛剛至少提了三個大的案子，都是跟中國大陸有關的，你們一直在強調你們要抗中保臺啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們一定啊！"],["張委員啓楷：結果錢也是過去中國大陸，連日本的技術都過去了，這三個案子在一個月內把你的改善計畫送到本席辦公室，好不好？一個月好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，本席也提了一些改善措施，你的組織架構要改革，第一個，要完整且公開你的投資政策評估會議，這也是監察院對你們的要求，馬上要做，好不好？第二個，要強化實地查訪，它的整個經營狀況你一定要掌握，好不好？第三個，不受到政府干預的第三方審查機制要趕快建立起來，可以嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：第三點絕對不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以這三大項要趕快做。其次，剛剛講的三個出問題的案子，三大投資，請一個月內將改善計畫送到本席辦公室。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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