{"total":{"value":25,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-03-26"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"150424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee20ae24acd43341c11925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a6e6d876e4313496955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"12:25:06 - 12:28:11","影片長度":"00:03:05","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":185,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:28:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:25:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.07346875,"end":45.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.01534375,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.31534375000001,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.38346875,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.87471875,"end":183.02346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.985,"end":26.237,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員本席認為 討論電價的調漲是最不得已的情況之下所以在討論電價調漲之前 有兩件事情我們先討論清楚第一個是台電影印的虧損 真正的原因是什麼"},{"start":27.538,"end":49.114,"text":"弄清楚這一點才能做出對的政策才可以解決問題第二個是電價調漲到底對民生經濟產生了多大的衝擊如果調漲電價救了台電而搞垮了我們的經濟絕對不是一個好事"},{"start":52.637,"end":69.085,"text":"那針對第一個問題雖然民進黨一直推說是因為國際原物料的上漲提升或者是一個二屋的戰爭事後國際能源價格上漲所以"},{"start":70.353,"end":91.769,"text":"都只是一個表象所以真正的問題原因在哪裡是民進黨政府僵化的能源政策導致台灣在面對國際能源價格浮動時完全沒有反應的空間最後不得不漲價的電價所以從此全民"},{"start":93.684,"end":107.273,"text":"從我們全民的身上挖錢民進黨政府不先檢討能源政策反而先調漲電價根本本末導致所以第二個問題是民進黨一直用電價調漲對物價影響有限欺騙國人"},{"start":110.815,"end":132.853,"text":"甚至說出麵包店電價調漲一日兩元的謊言電力或能源的產生關聯性非常的高無論是生產製造或服務業都是能源使用有關雖然民生用電在百分之七"},{"start":135.334,"end":156.408,"text":"70% 700度700度以下都不漲但其餘的商辦超市及部分餐飲等用戶調漲10%反而反映在服務或最終的產品銷售帶動物價上漲影響的是全面性所以雖然台電在估計這次的電價調漲影響CPI的"},{"start":162.932,"end":179.845,"text":"百分之204但過去兩年物價漲幅可觀但預計在物價連連的高漲人民根本無法承受因此在檢討現行能源政策前電價應該先動漲以上"}]}},{"id":"150423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eeb1b2831e15dcab401925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a600481c2c471a13375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:21:26 - 12:24:55","影片長度":"00:03:29","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":209,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:24:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:21:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":52.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.23784375,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.85784375,"end":95.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.21846875,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.32659375,"end":115.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":117.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.43034375,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.28659375000001,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.62346875,"end":165.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.64221875,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.69659375,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.94534375,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.72471875000002,"end":206.27721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":14.979,"text":"在場的一個委員電價如果跌大家都會很開心電價要漲要跌立法院當然都會表達關切我們立法院在2015年就是說在第8屆進來的時候我們就通過了電價公示建立電價審議的一個機制"},{"start":20.702,"end":43.503,"text":"我們去設置了整個電價費率的審議委員會定期去檢討調整公用的一個受電業的一個電價然後電價審議會在審議電價的時候他也會去評估各種的一個因素比如說你去考量到電價的一個成本也會去中國考量到社會的一個經濟的一個狀況物價的一個穩定情況民生承受的一個程度"},{"start":44.685,"end":47.733,"text":"這幾年大家很清楚了臺電其實就是虧損了這個整個立法院通過的就是"},{"start":53.734,"end":78.053,"text":"電價審議委員會長諜是他來做一個審議這幾年大家也很清楚臺電本身是一個國營事業你本身又要兼負著維繫國際民生的一個政策的任務成本當然都能夠吸收民眾都消息息藉此來協助降低通膨的一個壓力可是大家我們立法院的同仁大家也不妨去想一想"},{"start":78.493,"end":78.633,"text":"主席"},{"start":96.295,"end":96.595,"text":"國際經貿情勢的演變"},{"start":116.434,"end":140.626,"text":"我相信是不是完全復甦然後再考量到整個臺電發電不管是發電或者購電的一個成本那這個部分來講的話都是關鍵到整個經濟的一個發展跟人民生活的品質大家的想法都會是一樣可是呢臺電整個永續的經營跟民眾用電的一個權益你怎麼樣去穩定這供電跟降低民生的一個衝擊"},{"start":141.907,"end":168.817,"text":"這一次在電價審議委員會裏面3月23號這個決議裏面平均電價它去漲了11%可是它是以民生用電採較低調幅然後產業用電因經營狀況用電量採不同調幅的一個方式也就是說這次的一個電價的調整它是比較細緻化的我想從我上面這樣的一個發言裏面其實也就是要跟委員會"},{"start":170.057,"end":190.03,"text":"的委員來做一個報告就是說這一次電價調整方案已經是電價費率審議委員會依照我們立法院的決議也去反映成本照顧民生穩定物價來節能減碳使用者付費的考量也同時其實也做成一個附帶決議啦容於學校社福團體電價為止"},{"start":192.592,"end":205.984,"text":"動漲的一個附帶決議那我想民主進步黨秉持著民生優先穩定物價的一個保障民生福祉的部分並維持我們我國供電電力永續的一個發展以上民主進步黨這樣的一個說明"}]}},{"id":"150422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee968bee53096be70d1925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a63df04c9d932d26475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:19:04 - 12:21:18","影片長度":"00:02:14","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":134,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:21:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:19:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.87409375,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.97534375,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.56909375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.96909375,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.87659375000001,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.74909375,"end":105.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.20846875000001,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.59659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.255,"end":14.805,"text":"主席各位同仁大家午安我想臺灣民眾黨特別在這裡要拜託還有我們共同來討論因為本黨團是針對兩個案第一也是"},{"start":23.933,"end":44.297,"text":"臺電漲價這個問題我們本黨團認為起的一個共識比較中性也就是說要求經濟部針對臺灣能源這個能源的政策電價的結構還有臺電各項知識尊嚴的措施向在本院經濟委員會提出前面檢討確經本院經濟委員會審查通過以後電價"},{"start":49.658,"end":69.106,"text":"前面還漲前面還漲也就是充分的讓全民知道你漲價的目的在哪邊所以這個部分我們本黨團特別提出這個針類第一案另外針類第二案特別就是彰化縣它是榮業大縣那為經濟費規劃在彰濱公衛區"},{"start":74.428,"end":74.568,"text":"林國成議員"},{"start":96.943,"end":97.403,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":115.157,"end":115.758,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee5c9660a3407e9ac51925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a6ed222aae6281d52b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"12:17:32 - 12:18:54","影片長度":"00:01:22","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":82,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:18:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:17:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.603468750000001,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.075343750000002,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.16721875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.38159375000001,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.78596875000001,"end":83.54534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.838,"end":23.613,"text":"謝謝主席各位我們程序委員那我們國民黨黨團的提議陣列本院國民黨團為避免物價電價調漲民生痛苦指數飆漲"},{"start":25.034,"end":50.143,"text":"因此反對臺電公司調漲電價建起院會作成決議立即停止電價上漲並要求行政院、貴城相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套的措施並兼顧人民生計以維持供電穩定及臺電"},{"start":52.304,"end":78.746,"text":"公司執政廠的引運是否有當建起公決所以按由本院中國國民黨立法院黨團針對本次第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程草案針列討論事項第二案列入本次會議討論事項第一案以上"},{"start":82.851,"end":82.872,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee566174efe876ff861925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a66d52115be4726d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:16:54 - 12:17:16","影片長度":"00:00:22","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":22,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:17:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:16:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.82346875,"end":20.12909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.528,"end":19.6,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們聯席所有的委員民主進步黨 立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第7次會議議程討論的事項建請照原略的議事日程草案通過"}]}},{"id":"150419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eec0d4e0c536a288661925026deea320e8f8ba9b0039caa7a69b619e1323c98f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:15:18 - 12:15:36","影片長度":"00:00:18","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":18,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:15:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T12:15:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":15.117218750000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.052,"end":14.561,"text":"好 那這邊暗有 針對第11屆第1會期第7次會議議程的報告事項 質詢事項 建請照議事日程草案及各黨團提議整列報告事項通過那提案人是這個民主基部長 立法院黨團沈伯洋 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15758","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd8a978fa28129bee91150dfc2203686d53be8d109af184be4892bfa702d4ea2a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-26T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-26","start_time":"2024-03-26T11:45:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第4次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:34:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":2999,"委員發言時間":"11:45:00 - 12:34:59","影片長度":"00:49:59","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1931.9990937500002,"end":1935.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1936.6734687500002,"end":1938.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1940.5040937500003,"end":1949.4815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1949.6165937500002,"end":1955.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1956.41721875,"end":1960.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1961.1590937500002,"end":1965.6309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1965.98534375,"end":1972.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1972.9378437500002,"end":1976.6165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1977.08909375,"end":1978.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1979.1309687500002,"end":1981.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1981.7634687500001,"end":1987.7709687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1987.9059687500003,"end":1992.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1992.7997187500002,"end":1995.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1997.8453437500002,"end":1999.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2001.00096875,"end":2002.6209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2003.3803437500003,"end":2029.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2029.97534375,"end":2039.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2039.6109687500002,"end":2040.5897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2040.8259687500001,"end":2042.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2042.8003437500001,"end":2048.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2049.7022187500006,"end":2063.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2063.40471875,"end":2103.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2104.0565937500005,"end":2135.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2135.91659375,"end":2151.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2152.06596875,"end":2204.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2204.8340937500006,"end":2241.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2241.79034375,"end":2242.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2243.71409375,"end":2265.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2265.7528437500005,"end":2287.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2288.12909375,"end":2343.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2344.8122187500003,"end":2351.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2351.07284375,"end":2402.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2402.87909375,"end":2416.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2417.6278437500005,"end":2457.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2457.30096875,"end":2460.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2461.0809687500005,"end":2485.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2485.4990937500006,"end":2533.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2534.68971875,"end":2627.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2627.87346875,"end":2632.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2633.6784687500003,"end":2645.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2645.64284375,"end":2674.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2675.1403437500003,"end":2687.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2690.7159687500007,"end":2693.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2693.8884687500004,"end":2696.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2697.34784375,"end":2699.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2699.89596875,"end":2701.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2712.7040937500005,"end":2726.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2729.5284687500007,"end":2733.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2734.25346875,"end":2740.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2742.08346875,"end":2753.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2753.7272187500002,"end":2755.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2755.3809687500006,"end":2756.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2757.1697187500004,"end":2760.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2761.00034375,"end":2766.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2767.75034375,"end":2796.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2800.0322187500005,"end":2806.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2812.5534687500003,"end":2827.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2832.8709687500004,"end":2836.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2853.44159375,"end":2855.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2856.3272187500006,"end":2857.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2857.9303437500002,"end":2861.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2861.8115937500006,"end":2863.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2864.00534375,"end":2869.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2869.6922187500004,"end":2924.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2927.64096875,"end":2932.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2942.76096875,"end":2952.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2953.5778437500003,"end":2957.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2957.7965937500003,"end":2958.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2958.99471875,"end":2969.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2969.84534375,"end":2977.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2977.4559687500005,"end":2982.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2982.85596875,"end":3011.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3012.3028437500006,"end":3033.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3034.7634687500004,"end":3043.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3044.09534375,"end":3068.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3070.9434687500006,"end":3070.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3070.96034375,"end":3075.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3078.90846875,"end":3131.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3132.08159375,"end":3132.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3133.2965937500003,"end":3134.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3134.9334687500004,"end":3175.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3176.2772187500004,"end":3186.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3186.38534375,"end":3195.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3196.4597187500003,"end":3197.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3197.4890937500004,"end":3198.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3199.34534375,"end":3245.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3245.7009687500004,"end":3248.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3248.75534375,"end":3249.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3249.9872187500005,"end":3257.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3257.78346875,"end":3286.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3289.8122187500003,"end":3293.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3305.03346875,"end":3306.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3307.6153437500006,"end":3308.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3309.69096875,"end":3312.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3312.7115937500002,"end":3324.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3324.38909375,"end":3368.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3369.59721875,"end":3391.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3392.6484687500006,"end":3460.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3460.65471875,"end":3461.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3462.15659375,"end":3482.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3487.8065937500005,"end":3488.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3488.92034375,"end":3489.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3489.8484687500004,"end":3494.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3495.2653437500003,"end":3496.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3497.35784375,"end":3506.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3507.0440937500007,"end":3511.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3511.2965937500003,"end":3512.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3512.35971875,"end":3513.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3513.5409687500005,"end":3519.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3519.2615937500004,"end":3524.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3525.67409375,"end":3541.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3542.5322187500005,"end":3542.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3545.9747187500006,"end":3546.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3546.78471875,"end":3546.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3546.8522187500002,"end":3547.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3547.13909375,"end":3547.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3550.5478437500005,"end":3550.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3550.75034375,"end":3550.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3550.88534375,"end":3551.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3551.96534375,"end":3551.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3555.3065937500005,"end":3559.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3559.2215937500005,"end":3559.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3559.86284375,"end":3559.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3559.8965937500006,"end":3559.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3559.9978437500004,"end":3560.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3561.0947187500005,"end":3562.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3571.7597187500005,"end":3572.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3572.19846875,"end":3572.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3574.9659687500007,"end":3574.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3575.3034687500003,"end":3575.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3577.32846875,"end":3579.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3579.20159375,"end":3580.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3583.7072187500007,"end":3584.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3585.58034375,"end":3589.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3590.3897187500006,"end":3591.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3591.8409687500007,"end":3593.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3593.6297187500004,"end":3616.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3617.52471875,"end":3626.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3627.05909375,"end":3627.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3628.6959687500002,"end":3629.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3631.02471875,"end":3633.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3633.97784375,"end":3636.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3636.57659375,"end":3638.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3640.25534375,"end":3643.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3643.7653437500003,"end":3645.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3652.79346875,"end":3656.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3657.5353437500007,"end":3658.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3658.76721875,"end":3662.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3667.9472187500005,"end":3669.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3671.4403437500005,"end":3671.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3671.9128437500003,"end":3673.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3679.8103437500004,"end":3681.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3681.5653437500005,"end":3683.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3684.0459687500006,"end":3688.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3688.7540937500007,"end":3692.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3694.55909375,"end":3695.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3696.6853437500004,"end":3698.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3699.4697187500005,"end":3704.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3704.5997187500006,"end":3717.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3718.30221875,"end":3720.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3722.9597187500003,"end":3723.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3723.9384687500005,"end":3725.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3726.8409687500007,"end":3728.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3728.59596875,"end":3730.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3737.70846875,"end":3739.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3739.81784375,"end":3740.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3740.3747187500003,"end":3741.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3742.28159375,"end":3743.1759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3743.66534375,"end":3745.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3745.5553437500002,"end":3747.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3755.79846875,"end":3758.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3758.32971875,"end":3758.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3758.4815937500007,"end":3758.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3759.5447187500004,"end":3759.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3761.4853437500005,"end":3762.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3763.1728437500005,"end":3764.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3765.31596875,"end":3767.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3768.7584687500002,"end":3769.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3769.82159375,"end":3770.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3770.56409375,"end":3776.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3777.0778437500003,"end":3777.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3778.5965937500005,"end":3782.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3784.23284375,"end":3787.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3788.28284375,"end":3791.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3797.36159375,"end":3798.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3799.2009687500004,"end":3800.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3804.41534375,"end":3805.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3805.9678437500006,"end":3807.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3808.0097187500005,"end":3811.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3813.1903437500005,"end":3815.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3818.70846875,"end":3829.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3830.33534375,"end":3832.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3833.77784375,"end":3835.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3835.22909375,"end":3836.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3837.3553437500004,"end":3838.35096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1446.812,"end":1447.838,"text":"主席"},{"start":1932.025,"end":1938.59,"text":"好 我們現在已達法定人數 現在開始開會請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院程序委員會第11屆第1會期第三次會議議事錄實現中華民國113年3月19日星期二中午12時4分至22分地點紅樓20會議室出席委員林文思明等18人 主席吳衍忠憲"},{"start":1956.568,"end":1976.234,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀本會第11屆第1會期第2次會議事錄決定確定決定事項一 審定本院第11屆第1會期第6次會議事程一層報告事項及資訊事項一 民進黨黨團張文雅林提案均照一層草案及陣列報告事項通過對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢二 請願案件"},{"start":1979.161,"end":1992.955,"text":"一含送本院相關委會審查共一案二一請願法第4條系屬應提起訴訟之事項未便受理含附請願人共一案三一立法院職權行使法第65條含轉權責機關處理進付並複資請願人共6案宣讀完畢好請問有無錯誤或遺漏之處好沒有我們意思不確定"},{"start":2003.407,"end":2026.137,"text":"那報告委員會在處理這個議程草案之前先向各位委員說明因為今天早上這個院會通過的這個協商結論決定我們要在定於4月2號也就是禮拜二邀請審計長列席報告111年度總決算跟特別決算的審核報告等這個等案那審核經過並被諮詢並被諮詢"},{"start":2030.014,"end":2046.454,"text":"那本次議程草案有關4月2號的這個院會議程我們就依照這個上開的協商結論我們予以調整好可以嗎好那我們現在就請宣讀議程草案報告事項質詢事項及諮詢事項"},{"start":2049.724,"end":2078.08,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事程草案實現中華民國143年3月29日星期五4月2日星期二上午9時至下午6時地點本院議場報告事項一宣讀本院第11屆第1會期第6次會議議事錄二之四委員王燕營等於去中華民國新法教司法及法自然審查老公基準法中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法教社會福利及衛生環境委員審查五之六委員廖偉強等於去上層事件處理法教司法及法自然審查醫療發展特別條例"},{"start":2079.1,"end":2079.24,"text":"委員委員委員"},{"start":2098.992,"end":2099.373,"text":"公職委員選舉罷免法 總統副總統選舉罷免法"},{"start":2114.089,"end":2128.219,"text":"國際法交內政委員審查 貨物稅條例交財政委員審查 中央選舉委員會組織法交司法及法制內政兩院審查 二十一至二十三委員 高金素美等女區中央選舉委員會組織法交司法及法制內政兩院審查 立法院組織法交司法及法制委員審查"},{"start":2129.039,"end":2150.001,"text":"地方人一代表費用之幾期村里長事務補助費補助條例交內政委員審查24-27委員楊瓊玉等據遠洋漁業條例公司法 人員管理法交經濟委員審查中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員審查28-29委員蘇金權等據中華民國刑法交司法及法制委員審查兒童及少年福利與權益保障法交社會福利及維持環境委員審查30-34"},{"start":2152.123,"end":2168.585,"text":"委員．施法等據所得稅法﹑遺產及贈予稅法交財政委員審查公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例交司法及法制交易及文化聯合委員審查公務委員退休之前撫恤法民法交司法及法制委員審查國民黨黨團引據中華民國新法交司法及法制委員審查"},{"start":2170.547,"end":2197.421,"text":"委員陳昌明等局財政收支劃分法交財政委員審查環境影響評估法交稅務福利及衛生環境委員審查3月8日第41委員王定宇等局公職委員選舉罷免法總統副總統選舉罷免法交內政委員審查陸海空軍刑法交司法及法治外交及國防兩位委員審查外國創業人才演覽及雇用法交經濟稅務福利及衛生環境交易及文化三位委員審查4月2日第48委員陳玉珍等局離島建設條例再生能源發展條例交經濟委員審查國際法交內政委員審查"},{"start":2199.202,"end":2218.272,"text":"地方制度法 內政 司法及法 資料委員審查 聚會服務法 社會福利及衛生環境委員審查49至50委員 研究等區 性別平等工作法 兒童及少年福利與權益保障法 社會福利及衛生環境委員審查51至55委員 許智傑等女俊 飲水法 船員法 交通委員審查 學生輔導法 教育及文化委員審查"},{"start":2218.992,"end":2219.012,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2243.77,"end":2264.795,"text":"委員 林一慶 鄧宇峻 國際法 總統 副總統 選舉 罷免法 教內政委員審查學校法人及其所屬私立學校教職員 退休 撫恤 離職 私遣條例 教司法及法治教育文化 兩委員審查教師法教教育文化 委員審查66-69 委員 林思明 鄧宇峻 公民不在籍投票法 地方民意代表分員知己其孫里長收補助費補助條例 教內政委員審查"},{"start":2265.815,"end":2277.4,"text":"工廠管理 輔導發酵 經濟委員審查財政受資化分法 財政委員審查70-73委員會委員會根據原住民屬工作權保障法 國際法地方民意代表分行知己其孫立長事務補儲費補儲條例 將內政委員審查工廠管理 輔導發酵 經濟委員審查74-716"},{"start":2282.822,"end":2305.572,"text":"委員民主運動與局國際法臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員審查陸海空軍刑法交司法及法治外交局國防兩委員審查屆七至七九委員區議能與局農村再生條例植物整條施法工廠管理輔導法交經濟委員審查八十至八十五委員盧縣運動與局反族群歧視法地方民意代表費用知己及村民等事務補助費補助條例交內政委員審查"},{"start":2307.433,"end":2321.446,"text":"原住民保留地淨化補償條例 將內政經濟量為審查 並以地區學校教育發展條例 教教育及文化為審查 全民健康保險法 將社會福利及衛生環境為審查 老年人民福利清貼篡選條例 將社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三為審查"},{"start":2324.128,"end":2324.549,"text":"委員委員委員委員委員委員委員"},{"start":2345.424,"end":2367.67,"text":"92-95委員吳佩義等居國際法教內政委員審查﹚文化資產保存法教教育局文化委員審查﹚豆沙東管理主法調理車交通委員審查﹚國家語言研究發展中心社區調理教司法及法治教育局文化聯盟委員審查﹚96委員沈柏亮等一居國家安全法教內政委員審查﹚97-99委員王正俊等居所得稅法教財政委員審查﹚癌症防治法教社會福利及衛生環境委員審查"},{"start":2370.172,"end":2376.959,"text":"100-102 文蔡義隆居地方委員代表費用支給其村長收入補助費補助條例將內政委員審查保險發酵財政委員審查工廠管理複勞發酵經濟委員審查103 文馬文君等居工廠管理複勞發酵經濟委員審查104-106 文謝業鳳等居戶籍發酵內政委員審查"},{"start":2387.47,"end":2414.752,"text":"農民退休處境條例交經濟委員審查農業保險法交經濟財政兩位委員審查107-108委員張雅玲鄧俊野生動物保育法交經濟委員審查教師法交教育及文化委員審查109-114委員科資源等與中華民國新法交司法及法治委員審查公立學校教學院退休資金撫恤條例交司法及法治教育及文化兩位委員審查高級中等教育法學生輔導法運動產業發展條例交教育及文化委員審查115-118"},{"start":2417.665,"end":2430.351,"text":"委員 邱振鈞等局 遠洋漁業條例 少子女化 社會對策 基本發酵 經濟委員審查勞工保險條例交稅 福利及衛生環境委員審查公務員員退休之前補蓄發酵 司法及法治委員審查 119-120委員徐喬興等局 沿海防治發酵 社會福利及衛生環境委員審查監察院組織發酵 司法及法治委員審查 121-113委員陳培鈺等局"},{"start":2440.615,"end":2459.755,"text":"學生輔導法教師法教交集文化委員審查中加病等於加值型及非加值型營業稅法交財政委員審查工廠管理輔導法交經濟委員審查武裝線等於性平等工作法交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查加值型及非加值型營業稅法交財政委員審查"},{"start":2462.737,"end":2482.567,"text":"136-136委員邱志偉等居外國專業人才演覽及雇用法教經濟社會福利及衛生環境教育及文化三文人審查多層次是傳銷管理法教經濟文人審查兩年文明復印經濟暫行條例教社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三文人審查廢紙廊上邊區人員任用條例教司法及法治內政兩文人審查公務委員考記法教司法及法治文人審查137-138委員張志偉等居"},{"start":2485.909,"end":2493.456,"text":"動物保護法 經濟委員審查中華民國新法 司法及法制委員審查司法及法制委員審查大陸委員會函送臺灣與澳門避免航空企業雙重課稅協議成效報告"},{"start":2502.203,"end":2522.286,"text":"交內政委員處理141-286 行政院內政部 海委會 國發會 經濟部 農業部 交易部 主席總署 審計部 環境部 衛福部 國安局 金管會 國安基金管委員會 通常會 司法院 陸委會 黨產會 聯名會 客委會 中選會 海委會 國防部 退府會 僑委會 公平會 央行 文化部 國科會 核安會"},{"start":2523.127,"end":2542.332,"text":"故宮、交通部、工程會、運安會、訴發部、總統府、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、法務部、護士館等含送書面資料交相關委員會287-307行政院農業部立法院秘書長、司法院、省市行政總署等含位預算決議事項交相關委員會處理308-309立政委員會含位院會交付事項業績審查處文件請查詐案"},{"start":2548.374,"end":2567.942,"text":"國民黨黨黨團提議次列一至六 國民黨黨團委區 中小企業辦 條例 電 法教 經濟委員審查 所謂稅法 證券交易法教 財政委員審查 公務員退休 資遣 撫恤法教 司法及法專委審查 交易經費編列與管理法教 教育及文化委員審查 企業指揮委員 張正文等局 新住民 基本法教 內政委員審查"},{"start":2569.062,"end":2595.232,"text":"中央企業法院條例交經濟委員審查 預算法交財政委員審查 環境基本法交收益負利期委員審 環境委員審查 十一委員馬文君等於居 國土計劃法交內政委員審查 十二委員文明財等於居 證券交易稅條例交財政委員審查 十三委員圖宣記等於居 中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員審查 民進黨黨團體政略十四委員審 北洋等於居 臺灣地區與大陸地區人文關係條例交內政委員審查 十五委員郭國文等於居"},{"start":2595.952,"end":2617.94,"text":"證券投資信託及顧問法﹐不動產證券化條例交財政委員審查17至19委員莊瑞雄等一區﹐學校衛生法教教育及文化委員審查性別評論工作法教授及衛生環境委員審查國際法教內政委員審查25委員鍾家斌等一區﹐國際法教內政委員審查21至23委員蔡啟昌等一區﹐國民體育法教教育及文化委員審查消防法教內政委員審查"},{"start":2618.4,"end":2630.508,"text":"老民 農民 福利 經濟 暫行 條例 交稅 危機 衛生 環境 經濟 內政 三委員審查24至25委員陳培宇等 文莊 雅玲等分別擬具行人交通安全設施條例交內政交通兩委員審查26至28"},{"start":2633.73,"end":2646.535,"text":"委員黃潔等據國際法教內政委審查費指印刷稅法、輿路稅法教財政委審查二九至三十委員洪生恩等據海洋保育法教內政委審查行行交通安全設施條例教內政交通聯網委審查"},{"start":2649.456,"end":2674.243,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團第一政略三十一至三十五臺灣民眾黨黨團一聚公一皆必求保護法教司法及法治委員審查兩岸地階協議處理及監督條例海洋保育法教內政委員審查所要稅法教材政委員審查國軍老舊眷村改憲條例教外交及國防委員審查全市向省級長列席報告中華民國一百一十一年度中政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及中紀表審和報告"},{"start":2675.183,"end":2687.352,"text":"中政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第三期特別決算審核報告中政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困陣型特別決算審核報告審核經過並被諮詢4月2日宣讀完畢好我們現在宣讀完畢齁請我們就請這個登記發言的委員來發言我們首先請這個請省委員柏陽發言"},{"start":2713.128,"end":2713.708,"text":"請問針對沈博洋委員的提議有無異議"},{"start":2742.113,"end":2765.247,"text":"沒有齁 那我們本次議程草案包括報告事項 質詢事項還有各黨團增列報告事項及協商通過邀請審計長列席報告111年度總決算及特別決算審核報告等案的審查經過並被諮詢齁 我們就通過那接下來我們請宣讀議事議事日程草案的這個討論事項"},{"start":2768.099,"end":2796.485,"text":"討論事項3月29日1.中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算及總計表一頁及非一頁部分審查總報告案2.本院公安黨團建請院會作成決議立即停止調漲電價並要求請人們責成相關部會即刻檢討現行營運政策並提出因應對策與配套措施以兼顧人民生氣維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運是否有讓請供決案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2800.046,"end":2806.05,"text":"好我們現在宣讀完畢我們請登記委員發言首先第一位我們請莊委員瑞雄發言謝謝主席還有我們聯席所有的委員民主進步黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第7次會議議程討論的事項建請照那個原列的議事日程草案通過"},{"start":2833.196,"end":2836.405,"text":"好 謝謝接下來第二位我們請黃委員仁發言"},{"start":2853.664,"end":2868.44,"text":"謝謝主席各位我們程序委員那我們國民黨黨團的提議陣列本院國民黨團為避免物價電價調漲民生痛苦指數飆漲"},{"start":2869.881,"end":2894.992,"text":"因此反對臺電公司調漲電價建期院會作成決議立即停止電價上漲並要求行政院、貴城相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套的措施並兼顧人民生計以維持供電穩定及臺電"},{"start":2897.153,"end":2923.576,"text":"公司執政廠的引印是否有當建起公決所以按由本院中國國民黨立法院黨團針對本次第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事日程草案針列討論事項第二案列入本次會議討論事項第一案以上"},{"start":2928.943,"end":2930.872,"text":"謝謝 接下來請登之第三位發言 請連委員過程發言"},{"start":2943.156,"end":2952.685,"text":"主席各位同仁大家午安我想臺灣民眾黨特別在這裡要拜託還有我們共同來討論因為本黨團是針對兩個案第一也是"},{"start":2961.832,"end":2982.198,"text":"這個臺電漲價這個問題我們本黨團認為起的一個共識比較中性也就是說要求經濟部針對臺灣能源這個能源的政策電價的結構還有臺電各項知識尊嚴的措施向在本院經濟委員會提出前面檢討確經本院經濟委員會審查通過以後電價"},{"start":2987.559,"end":3006.987,"text":"前面還漲前面還漲也就是充分的讓全民知道你漲價的目的在哪邊所以這個部分我們本黨團特別提出這個針類第一案另外針類第二案特別就是彰化縣他是龍躍大縣那為經濟幣規劃在彰濱公衛區"},{"start":3012.329,"end":3012.449,"text":"林佳龍"},{"start":3035.344,"end":3051.717,"text":"總統府秘書長特別還告訴全民說是不見的另外我們行政院的鄭文燦副院長也特別承諾是不蓋的那現在無因無故選完以後就馬上覺得"},{"start":3053.639,"end":3065.949,"text":"要馬上蓋所以我們本黨團也提出這些應該要進入大會大家來公解大家來討論以上臺灣民眾黨本黨團針對這兩項敬請各位支持謝謝現在有莊瑞雄委員登記第二次發言我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3079.579,"end":3096.924,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場的一個委員電價如果這個跌大家都會很開心那電價要漲要跌立法院當然都會表達這個關切我們立法院在2015年就是說在第8屆的時候我去第8屆進來的時候我們就通過了電價公示建立電價審議的一個機制就是說我們去設置了整個電價費率的審議委員會定期去檢討調整公用的一個受電業的一個電價"},{"start":3109.348,"end":3126.915,"text":"審議會在審議電價的時候他有去評估各種的一個因素比如說你去考量到電價的一個成本有一去中國考量到社會的一個經濟的一個狀況物價的一個穩定情況民生承受的一個程度那這幾年大家很清楚了臺電其實就是虧損了那這個整個立法院通過了就是"},{"start":3133.342,"end":3158.121,"text":"定價審議委員會 漲跌是他來做一個審議那這幾年大家也很清楚臺電本身是一個國營事業你本身又要兼負著維繫國際民生的一個政策的任務成本當然都能夠吸收 民眾都消息息藉此來協助降低通膨的一個壓力可是大家 我們立法院的同仁大家也不妨去想一想"},{"start":3158.661,"end":3158.681,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":3176.523,"end":3176.664,"text":"國際經貿情勢的演變"},{"start":3196.505,"end":3220.683,"text":"我相信是不是完全復甦然後再考量到整個臺電發電不管是發電或者購電的一個成本那這個部分來講的話都是關鍵到整個經濟的一個發展跟人民生活的品質大家的想法都會是一樣可是呢臺電整個永續的經營跟民眾用電的一個權益你怎麼樣去穩定這供電跟降低民生的一個衝擊"},{"start":3221.964,"end":3248.869,"text":"這一次在電價審議委員會裏面3月23號這個決議裏面平均電價它去漲了11%可是它是以民生用電採較低調幅然後產業用電因經營狀況用電量採不同調幅的一個方式也就是說這次的一個電價的調整它是比較細緻化的我想從我上面這樣的一個發言裏面其實也就是要跟委員會"},{"start":3250.109,"end":3255.295,"text":"的委員來做一個報告就是說這一次電價調整方案已經是電價費率審議委員會依照我們立法院的決議也去反映成本照顧民生穩定物價來節能減碳使用者付費的考量"},{"start":3265.547,"end":3285.921,"text":"也同時其實也做成一個附帶決議啦容於學校社福團體電價為止動漲的一個附帶決議啦那我想民主進步黨秉持著民生優先穩定物價的一個保障民生福祉的部分並維持我們我國供電電力永續的一個發展以上民主進步黨這樣的一個說明好接下來我們請黃人委員第二次發言"},{"start":3305.269,"end":3325.518,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員本席認為 討論電價的調漲是最不得已的情況之下所以在討論電價調漲之前 有兩件事情我們先討論清楚第一個是台電影印的虧損 真正的原因是什麼"},{"start":3326.798,"end":3348.398,"text":"弄清楚這一點才能做出對的政策才可以解決問題第二個是電價調漲到底對民生經濟產生了多大的衝擊如果調漲電價救了台電而搞垮了我們的經濟絕對不是一個好事"},{"start":3351.921,"end":3368.372,"text":"那針對第一個問題雖然民進黨一直推說是因為國際原物料的上漲提升或者是一個二屋的戰爭事後國際能源價格上漲所以"},{"start":3369.639,"end":3391.052,"text":"都只是一個表象所以真正的問題原因在哪裡是民進黨的政府僵化的能源政策導致臺灣在面對國際能源價格浮動時完全沒有反應的空間最後不得不漲價的電價所以從此全民"},{"start":3392.968,"end":3406.563,"text":"從我們全民的身上挖錢民進黨政府不先檢討能源政策反而先調漲電價根本本末導致所以第二個問題是民進黨一直用電價調漲對物價影響有限欺騙國人"},{"start":3410.086,"end":3430.036,"text":"甚至說出麵包店電價調漲一日兩元的謊言電力或能源的產生關聯性非常的高無論是生產製造或服務業都是能源使用有關雖然民生用電在700%度以下都不漲但其餘的商辦"},{"start":3438.82,"end":3440.722,"text":"臺電在估計這次的電價調漲影響CPI的"},{"start":3462.196,"end":3462.216,"text":"好"},{"start":3490.086,"end":3510.291,"text":"我們現在所有登記發言都已經結束我們來進行處理我們是這個先提案先表決所以我們依照這個提案的順序我們來進行處理依照慣例因為我們這個提案"},{"start":3512.574,"end":3524.726,"text":"如果這個包括第一案莊惠雄委員所提的是依照建議依照這個原定原列議事日程草案通過了所以如果莊惠雄委員的案子通過了我們後面的就不處理了"},{"start":3525.714,"end":3550.839,"text":"那這個國民黨黨團所提案的是增列第二案討論事項第二案那這個如果那如果莊瑞雄委員沒有通過我們處理國民黨的案子如果國民黨案子通過我們第三案就不再處理所以我們按照慣例是這樣處理好不好那是增列案怎麼會他們的處理我們的不處理勒不是啦 這個委員會是大家要談大家沒有意見當然可以處理"},{"start":3555.367,"end":3570.69,"text":"好沒關係這個尊重大家的意見我們都是按照慣例啦按照好好好啦好好啦"},{"start":3585.949,"end":3605.977,"text":"莊銳雄委員的案子如果過了我們二三案都不處理啦齁對不起因為這個我看你們的案子啦齁因為你們本來有一個其餘照草案通過啦齁有本來有這樣文字如果這樣文字我知道他們本來國民黨黨我拿到他上面有一個其餘照草案通過啦齁"},{"start":3606.897,"end":3624.914,"text":"那後來劃掉了後來劃掉來劃掉沒有看到劃掉啦齁因為如果他沒有劃掉你的就沒有辦法處理因為他們其餘他們案子有這個其餘照草案通過啦齁那他們現在劃掉了我想那就沒有關係我們就第三案再處理再處理這都沒有問題我們都照議事規則來了齁好那我們現在"},{"start":3631.229,"end":3643.289,"text":"現在就進行處理了先提案先處理我們先處理針對莊瑞雄委員的提案請問有無異議有有異議我們就進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":3653.204,"end":3656.826,"text":"我們在場人數18人現在針對莊瑞雄委員的提議贊成者請舉手贊成者8人反對者請舉手"},{"start":3679.984,"end":3695.316,"text":"反對者10人贊成者少數不通過所以我們接下來就處理第二案由黃人委員的提案請問針對黃人委員的提案在場委員有無異議沒有沒有異議有"},{"start":3699.517,"end":3724.759,"text":"好有意義沒有我們是針對程序我們不是針對你贊不贊成今天是程序委員會我們不是這個在討論要不要漲電價的問題我們是在討論是不是要按照這樣的程序來處理我們程序委員會所以好那如果有意義我們就進行表決那我們再清給一次在場人數有意義嗎有意義阿民進黨團有意義阿"},{"start":3727.029,"end":3730.211,"text":"在場人數18人 贊成黃人委員提議的請舉手贊成者10人 反對黃人委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":3755.831,"end":3766.138,"text":"沒有啦,這個不能這樣講反對者8人贊成者多數,我們通過接下來我們處理第三案我們處理林國城委員的提案請問針對林國城委員提案,在場委員有異議?"},{"start":3784.601,"end":3810.72,"text":"有吼 有異議有異議我們進行表決那這個贊成林國成委員提案的請舉手好 贊成者10人反對的請舉手好 反對者8人贊成者多數通過那我們討論事項就依照修正通過"},{"start":3813.2,"end":3836.074,"text":"好 接下來請宣讀人民請願案人民請願案1.1請願法第4條規定系屬於提取訴訟之事項者一案2.1立法院職權刑事法第65條規定含轉權的冤案處理者共事案宣讀完畢請問各位委員對人民請願案有無異議沒有無異議通過請問有無臨時動議沒有我們今天散會"}]}},{"id":"150431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eeb6959ceecc8616b78ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6422a069ce37fbd0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"16:06:48 - 16:22:13","影片長度":"00:15:25","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":925,"end_time":"2024-03-26T16:22:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T16:06:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（16時6分）謝謝主席。我想請一下陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：鄭委員午安。"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長好。這個會期有關於總質詢的問題有很多紛紛擾擾，本席剛好是最後一位。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我沒有花送給你，可是我希望520之後還能夠在這邊跟你質詢，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：這個有點困難。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先我想問一個問題，就是失聯移工不斷的攀高，行政院束手無策。我本來一直在想我這個「束手無策」後面到底要加問號，還是要加驚嘆號。我想請教院長，我們對於失聯移工的問題有沒有解決的方法，要如何解決？"],["陳院長建仁：針對失聯移工的問題，政府確實是在COVID-19這一段期間失聯移工有增加，後來我們也努力查處這些失聯移工，像在去年就有4萬多人我們有查出來，現在還有8萬多人。在這一個部分我們會請勞動部，還有內政部……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，去年查到4萬多人，現在還有8萬多人喔，所以曾經高峰是10幾萬人嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：去年是2.7萬，我剛才講的是比較長的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你看一下統計數字，從2019年一路過來，你的數字跟我的數字顯然有點不太一樣，可是我這全部都是看勞動部官方網站上面的數字。從2019年的4萬8千多人一路到去年8萬6,523人，這麼多人的情況之下，我先不講你們之前讓他們能夠自首的有多少人，這麼多人的情況之下，顯然已經讓我們的社會裡面──政府輸、社會輸，連移工也輸！出現一個三輸的情況！政府輸在哪裡？整個政府的威信完全喪失掉，因為整個失聯移工他們已經變成一個產業鏈，有一條龍的狀態，有失聯的移工透過一些非法的仲介找到一些非法的雇主，他們就一路這樣下來。過去10年，等到他們賺飽了，他們準備要回國了，錢也從地下匯兌出去了之後，他就讓你抓到，都來自首。過去10年，我們政府大概還要幫他們付機票錢，因為他們就說沒有錢，政府要買機票給他們回去，過去10年大概花了1億。還有社會安全也受到很多的挑戰，我待會就直接來問院長一個問題，移工逃脫社會安全的保障，這個問題也非常的具體，因為我們現在除了看護工之外是沒有比照勞基法，其他部分都一律按照我們的勞基法、就服法，包括性別平等工作法、職災保障、健保、勞保都有，在這個情況之下，如果不是非法的逃逸外勞，他們就得到保障，逃逸了之後，他們就沒有這個保障，因此出現很多問題，對不對？我想問一下院長，你知道目前逃逸、失聯的外勞當中，有多少人產生了下一代嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們確實有一些統計數據，詳細的數字……"],["許部長銘春：這些年大概三千五百……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有沒有詳細的數字？部長。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們有統計近20年來，失聯移工所產生的所謂黑戶寶寶大概是三千五百多人，整個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：三千五百多人。"],["許部長銘春：對，占所有黑戶寶寶1.8萬人大概不到20%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這是你講的目前的數字，但是有民間團體對於現在這麼多失聯移工的情況直接講到一個數字，他們認為到今年1月底為止，失聯移工裡頭女性有3萬7,192人，這是勞動部具體的數字；他們以三成來算的時候，預計可能會有一萬多個這樣子的寶寶。如果沒有好好處理，他們預計……"],["陳院長建仁：這個數據可能要再查證一下。"],["許部長銘春：對，要查證。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，本席要特別提到的狀態是，不管數字是三千多人還是他們預估的一萬多人，對臺灣社會都會產生很大的衝擊，這個衝擊不是眼前的，因為他們是人，他們會長大，他們會延續到後面產生很多問題。院長，對於失聯移工要怎麼樣子才能夠更有效地解決，讓這八萬五千多個失聯移工能夠真正地被納入正軌？我們有沒有更具體的做法，還是就放任他在社會當中流竄，造成我們社會當中系統性的問題？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不會發生，我們勞動部已經有一些對策。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這三年的疫情造成111年的時候增加四萬多名失聯移工，但是去年正常開放、邊境解封以後，我們也開放一些產業能夠進用移工，整個失聯率已經有降下來。未來我們大概會採取可能像越南……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你講數據降下來我就聽不太進去，你之後再給我更詳細的數字，因為我們的數字都是從勞動部查的。"],["許部長銘春：是，我們透過……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我現在想要講的狀態是，以目前這個狀況，臺灣的外勞政策、移工政策顯然是出了一個問題。"],["許部長銘春：這需要一些時間讓整個失聯率慢慢地降下來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我從兩個數字特別跟你講，按照113年2月底的數字，臺灣的外勞總共有七十五萬六千多人，這數字應該是對的，因為這也是從你們的網站上面直接抓下來的。其中的產業移工跟社福移工裡面，產業移工占大多數，可是真正很缺工的營造業跟農牧漁業的外勞人數很少，所以很多黑工……"],["許部長銘春：已經開放了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：很多黑工……"],["陳院長建仁：已經開放了。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們農業早就開放了……"],["鄭委員正鈐：去年的時候……"],["許部長銘春：只是遇到疫情一直進不來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：營建業開放了1萬5,000人……"],["許部長銘春：民間的已經開放了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是目前顯然是不夠的。按照國土署的統計數字……"],["許部長銘春：1萬5,000人的部分，目前內政部還沒有整個登記完，我們現在是給它1萬5,000人，當然看整個登記的狀況……"],["鄭委員正鈐：還沒有完全進來？"],["許部長銘春：沒有完全……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我要講的狀態是，根據國土署的數字……"],["許部長銘春：來登記要使用移工的民間業者大概只有1萬2,000人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：國土署今年1月公布營造業經濟概況調查，2022年，臺灣的營造業缺工人數高達4萬8,669人，這是國土署具體的數字……"],["許部長銘春：有時候職缺數不一定等於缺工數。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以目前營造業開放的狀態也不夠。我要再跟你們講一件事情，我從新竹來，新竹當時很積極在推寶山二期，因為要給台積電更好的狀態。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們都非常支持，可是你知道嗎？當他們趕工的時候，當地營造業工人一天的工資破萬。為什麼要趕工？台積電很守法，全部都用臺灣的勞動力。"],["許部長銘春：他們可以用外籍移工，但是它不用，它要用本籍的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以我要講的狀態是，之後產生的影響是附近很多的營造工人都缺工，缺得非常嚴重，所以在當地有些逃跑的外勞就往這邊流動，我要講的是，臺灣的營造業很習慣用點工的方式，當我們提出兩個要件：5到10人、過去3年營業額超過資本額10倍，這樣的兩個條件出來的時候，很多營造業業者都沒辦法符合，我希望我們的移工政策能夠更接地氣，至少在這個部分，勞動部跟內政部雖然想要解決營造業的問題，可是沒有完全解決，我希望勞動部能夠跟內政部再重新檢討一下有關營造業的移工政策，看是不是能夠再加以調整。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，讓部長講一下。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為整個民間營造業移工的開放是工程會邀集內政部營建署和勞動部等相關部會一起討論出來的方案。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，過程一定是如此。"],["許部長銘春：這個部分現在移工已經一萬五，我知道登記還沒有滿，但是這個政策都會滾動性檢討，因為這個政策剛上路，如果有問題，我想我們都會跨部會來檢討，讓整個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以它可能持續檢討，然後更符合基層業者的需求，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們會跨部會，因為現在剛上路，我的意思是剛登記，人還沒進來，如果怕沒有用，就說這個政策不行，我覺得用了之後，我們要務實檢討……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為他們目前很多人反映，他們是用點工的方式，並沒有直接聘用5到10名的營造業工人，這是他們產業的特性，點工的情況非常多，所以本席希望我們能夠更接地氣。"],["陳院長建仁：營建業的這一個部分，營建署就是現在的國土署有在很專業的瞭解多少人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳院長建仁：然後這一些政策正在實施過程當中，你剛才講的這些逃逸勞工，實際上在正式的勞工進來以後，慢慢的會被淘汰掉或被取代掉，這一個部分，我想我們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，他們沒有被取代掉，他們的數字一直累積，從2019年4萬多到2023年的8萬多，成長了快要一倍，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：剛才就講過了嘛，這是疫情期間移工進不來，是有這樣的困難。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你說這8萬多人都是你們統計出來、能夠追蹤得了的嗎？之後再給本席更清楚的資料，因為我們看到的數字完全不是如此。","另外跟移工有關的部分，我要特別提到有關於農業的部分，農漁民他們有一個外展農業漁工，我們目前開放3,000人，進來1,980人，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們已經給農業部一萬二，但是進來多少人可能……"],["鄭委員正鈐：農業部這邊常態性的缺工是1.2萬人次啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為農業有很強的季節性，在季節性強的時候有超過20.1萬缺工人次，我這邊的數字到目前為止，至少農業部給本席的資料是，他們目前開放的外展農務人士是3,000人，進來的是1,980人，跟你講的一萬多人，數字是不一樣的。"],["許部長銘春：一萬二是我給他們的額度，我們現在知道農業移工，事實上農業部已經核了一千多人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我講的是外展的移工。"],["許部長銘春：外展農務大概是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：外展的農業移工不是農業移工，你連這兩個名詞都沒辦法釐清嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不要急，讓他回答一下，外展的部分是3,000人啦。"],["許部長銘春：我們現在外展的部分是3,000。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對嘛，所以我講外展3,000人，我特別講外展的部分，這個部分因為他們有季節性，所以本席也特別希望針對外展的農業移工，是不是在不是農忙的時候，有可能讓他們去支援比方說營造業或其他產業？"],["許部長銘春：委員，依照目前的法規是不行的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，這個是我在這邊質詢的原因，我希望院長是不是能夠召集農業部、勞動部、內政部跟衛福部稍微針對這個部分去討論一個解決方式，好不好？否則你開放出來的外展農業移工3,000名，他們都用不滿啦！因為不知道怎麼用進來，用進來他們又沒有辦法給他足夠的工資，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：現在很重要的是，每一個人都有他的專業，你現在說外展的農業移工要到營建業，……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，所以我特別強調，這些外展農業移工是不是有可能去營造業做一些非技術性的工作？"],["陳院長建仁：外展的移工要按照他不同收成的方式、農業的需求來安排。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好不好？非技術性的工作。"],["陳院長建仁：不是說讓他跨……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以本席希望院長這邊能夠召集跨部會的一個協商，解決目前我們覺得已經碰到的移工政策的難題，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：這個移工的政策，我們一定會再滾動檢討，這一定沒有什麼問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。"],["陳院長建仁：但是剛才你講到的東西，就是不同專長的移工……"],["鄭委員正鈐：院長，你現在講滾動檢討……"],["陳院長建仁：要讓他跨業，這個是要很小心。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我也希望你滾動檢討一下，針對掛號費這個問題，因為3月4日開始嘛！薛部長3月8日特別提到公立醫院不會漲價，是不是有這樣的一個承諾？"],["陳院長建仁：現在他們有統計，你聽部長講一下，你的擔心實際上是有點過慮。"],["薛部長瑞元：到目前為止我們掌握的資料是有漲價，在我們那個公告之後，有漲價的醫療院所，包括醫院跟診所一共是57家，我們還持續在監測當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，時間有限，因為3月份剛開始，現在才3月中旬而已。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們已經……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以還沒有完全漲上來，可是部長之前有承諾就是……"],["薛部長瑞元：公立的院先不漲。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是公立醫院不漲嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：能夠持續多久不漲？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想一年大概可以了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：一年內不漲，一年之後可能就會漲？我要特別提到，因為掛號費取消上限的這個部分，其實已經嚴重影響到了很多醫生，他們擔心當公立醫院不漲的情況之下，而區域診所漲，可能會衝擊到我們分級的醫療制度。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：我相信部長一定有考量到這點，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個不會啦！"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個連不起來啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對，連不起來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：衝擊不了，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，不會。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我們多久會滾動性檢討一次？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然我們會持續監測。"],["陳院長建仁：他有在持續監控當中。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭委員正鈐的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，涂委員權吉3月15日經濟組登記之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.16534375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.395343750000002,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.47096875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.09534375,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":29.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.54534375,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.76284375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.05034375000001,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.19784375,"end":72.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.04534375,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.22659375,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.50909375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.15034375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.75784375,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.79534375,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.60534375,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.95096875,"end":80.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.08596875,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.02534375,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.14034375000001,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.79409375,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.51659375,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.61471875,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.86784375000002,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.92096875000001,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.12721875000003,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.87784375,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.40471875,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.49284375000002,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.75346875000002,"end":211.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.39034375,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.59284375000001,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.74284375000002,"end":229.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.01284375,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.02971875,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.51471875000001,"end":225.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.49284375000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.96534375000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.67284375000003,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.60471875000002,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.09784375,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.19846875000002,"end":265.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.93846875,"end":297.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.95471875000004,"end":301.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.10596875000005,"end":303.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.30409375,"end":306.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.54846875000004,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.03284375000004,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.89721875000004,"end":316.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.79159375,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.10784375000003,"end":324.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.00971875000005,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.81284375,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.79034375000003,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.97596875000005,"end":352.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.90409375,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.07284375,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.57909375,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.93284375,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.96596875,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.39596875,"end":364.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.01159375000003,"end":377.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.17034375000003,"end":393.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.64034375,"end":402.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.14659375,"end":407.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.35596875000005,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.94534375,"end":443.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.11784375,"end":417.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.07096875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.93284375,"end":441.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.59034375000005,"end":458.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.92971875,"end":460.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.61721875,"end":461.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.98409375000006,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.70534375000005,"end":464.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.17346875000004,"end":467.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.19409375000004,"end":484.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.89846875,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.41721875,"end":473.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.06471875000005,"end":532.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.40346875,"end":535.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.64784375,"end":538.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.58846875,"end":536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.60534375,"end":560.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.7978437500001,"end":549.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.1753437500001,"end":564.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.7109687500001,"end":569.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.03096875,"end":567.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.99284375,"end":568.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.0559687500001,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.08971875,"end":569.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.14034375,"end":569.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.1909687500001,"end":569.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.68034375,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.65034375,"end":573.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.18159375,"end":575.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.99971875,"end":594.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.7122187500001,"end":584.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.59221875,"end":593.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6428437500001,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.3515937500001,"end":595.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.1784687500001,"end":622.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.2122187500001,"end":595.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.24596875,"end":597.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.6415937500001,"end":601.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.65784375,"end":606.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.6597187500001,"end":629.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.89471875,"end":629.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.02971875,"end":630.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.27846875,"end":639.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":633.36659375,"end":634.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.15909375,"end":660.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.94034375,"end":660.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.09221875,"end":663.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.1340937500001,"end":665.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":666.2390937499999,"end":669.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.57659375,"end":666.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.8715937500001,"end":669.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.96846875,"end":670.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":670.66034375,"end":670.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.76159375,"end":673.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.7822187500001,"end":687.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.9740937500001,"end":694.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":694.0322187500001,"end":705.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.9253437500001,"end":708.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":708.02159375,"end":708.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.1015937500001,"end":717.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":709.16909375,"end":711.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.97034375,"end":712.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.77159375,"end":721.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.29409375,"end":720.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":720.57659375,"end":723.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.96846875,"end":733.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":733.78971875,"end":747.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":745.85534375,"end":746.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.57659375,"end":747.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.6272187500001,"end":769.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.63346875,"end":762.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.17346875,"end":762.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.2065937500001,"end":766.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.0672187499999,"end":767.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.48034375,"end":785.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.6997187500001,"end":769.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.1415937500001,"end":800.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":785.96721875,"end":790.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.3884687500001,"end":790.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.47284375,"end":792.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":792.3290937500001,"end":792.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.0578437500001,"end":800.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.46284375,"end":800.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.5134687500001,"end":812.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":805.64346875,"end":806.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.7990937500001,"end":828.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.0365937500001,"end":829.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.69034375,"end":835.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.7822187500001,"end":846.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.0209687500001,"end":849.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":849.68721875,"end":850.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.7209687500001,"end":850.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.5815937500001,"end":866.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.85909375,"end":857.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.0403437500001,"end":858.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":867.40596875,"end":870.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":870.0890937500001,"end":894.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.7265937500001,"end":897.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.8272187500002,"end":901.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.7803437500002,"end":902.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.0165937500001,"end":902.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":902.80971875,"end":902.9109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.9109687500002,"end":905.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.21471875,"end":904.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":906.1172187500001,"end":909.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":912.96846875,"end":916.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":917.9465937500001,"end":918.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":919.4653437500001,"end":921.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":922.63784375,"end":924.9665937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.376,"end":21.71,"text":"院長好,這個會期有關於總質詢的問題,就是有很多的分分毛毛,那我本席剛好是最後一位,那我沒有花送給你,可是我希望520只有還能夠在這邊跟你質詢,好不好?這個有點困難。首先我想問一個問題,就是"},{"start":26.158,"end":41.171,"text":"施連移工不斷攀高,行政院束手無策。我本來一直在想說我這束手無策後面到底要加問號還是要加驚嘆號。我想請教院長,我們對於施連移工的問題有沒有解決的方法,要如何解決?"},{"start":42.312,"end":61.36,"text":"施電移工的問題的話政府確實是在COVID-19的這一段期間施電移工有增加那後來我們也努力的來查處這些施電移工那像在去年的話就有4萬多人我們有查出來那現在還有8萬多人那在這個部分我們會請勞動部還有我們的這一個"},{"start":65.081,"end":89.152,"text":"去年查到4萬多人,現在還有8萬多人,所以曾經高峰是10幾萬人嗎?去年是2.7萬,我剛才講的是比較長的。來那個,院長你看一下統計數字,從2019年一路過來,所以你的數字跟我數字顯然有點不太一樣,可是我這全部都是看勞動部官方網站上面的數字下來,"},{"start":90.821,"end":110.354,"text":"從2019年四萬八千多人一路到去年八萬六千五百二十三人那麼這麼多人的情況之下我先不講說你們之前讓他們能夠來自首有多少人這麼多人的情況之下的時候顯然已經讓我們的社會裡面政府輸、社會輸"},{"start":112.335,"end":135.72,"text":"連移工也輸出現一個三輸的一個情況那政府輸在哪裡整個政府的威信完全喪失掉因為他們整個失聯移工他們已經變成一個產業鏈有一條龍的狀態有失聯的移工他們透過一些非法的政界找到一些非法的雇主他們就一路這樣下來過去十年啊"},{"start":136.4,"end":157.06,"text":"等到他們賺飽了,他們準備要回國了,錢也從地下會隊出去了之後呢,他就讓你抓到,就來自首。自首過去10年呢,我們政府大概要幫他們付機票錢,因為他說他們沒有錢,政府要買機票給他們回去,過去10年大概花了1億。那麼社會安全也受到很多的一個挑戰,我大概直接問一個問題來問院長這邊。"},{"start":159.962,"end":179.302,"text":"移工逃脫社會安全的保障這個問題也非常的具體因為我們現在除了看護工之外是沒有比照勞基法其他的部分都一律按照我們的勞基法、救福法那包括性別平等工作法、職災保障"},{"start":180.023,"end":183.306,"text":"那我想問一下院長你知道目前我們逃逸的失聯外勞當中的時候有多少人產生了下一代?"},{"start":204.29,"end":213.653,"text":"這個部分我們確實是有一些統計的數據那詳細的數字有沒有詳細的數字部長報告委員我們有統計20年來近20年來失聯移工所產生的他們所謂黑戶寶寶大概是3500多人3500多人是在所有的黑戶寶寶1.8萬人大概不到20%"},{"start":231.499,"end":242.006,"text":"這是你講的一個目前的數字因為有一個民間團體他們對於現在這麼多失聯移工的一個情況的時候他們直接講到一個數字"},{"start":243.612,"end":259.193,"text":"他們認為現在失聯移工裡頭女性有37192人按照到今年1月底為止這是勞動部的數字他們以三成來算的時候他們預計可能會有一萬多個這樣子的寶寶"},{"start":260.655,"end":287.456,"text":"那如果沒有好好處理的時候,他們預計……這個數據可能要再查證一下。那本席要特別提到的狀態是,不管數字是3000多人還是他們預估的1萬多人,對臺灣的社會都會產生很大的一個衝擊。然後這個衝擊不是眼前的,因為他們是人,他們會長大,他們會延續到後面很多很多的問題的產生。所以本席對於這個部分,"},{"start":288.397,"end":301.586,"text":"對於失聯移工的部分,院長這邊要怎麼樣子能夠更有效的解決,讓這八萬五千多個失聯的移工能夠真正的被"},{"start":303.314,"end":323.5,"text":"納入正軌我們有沒有更具體的一個做法還是就放任他在社會當中流竄造成我們社會當中一個系統性的一個問題當然不會發生我們這個勞動局已經有一個對策我們真的是這三年的疫情造成111年的時候那增加了4萬多的"},{"start":325.22,"end":345.293,"text":"施廉移工但去年我們正常開放之後移工不受邊境就是說邊境解封以後包括我們也開放一些產業能夠進入移工整個施廉率是已經降下來有降下來但未來齁未來我們大概會採取齁像一些可能像越南市長你講數據降下來的時候我就聽不太進去你之後再給我更詳細的一個數字因為我們的數字都是從整個勞動部那邊去查的"},{"start":352.117,"end":359.884,"text":"我們接下來想要講的狀態是以目前這個狀況我覺得臺灣的外勞政策、移工政策顯然是出了一個問題我從兩個數字來跟你這邊特別講到"},{"start":367.071,"end":392.626,"text":"按照113年2月底的一個數字臺灣外勞總共有75萬6千多人這數字應該是對的嘛因為也是從你們的網站上面直接抓下來的狀態那麼其中呢對於產業移工跟社福移工裡面那麼產業移工裡面占大多數可是呢真正很缺工的營造業跟農牧漁業它的外勞人數很少所以很多的黑工"},{"start":393.703,"end":397.808,"text":"已經開放了﹖很多的黑工隊已經開放了﹖去年的時候民間業開放了15000人可是購錢顯然是不夠的按照國土署的統計數字"},{"start":410.061,"end":414.282,"text":"國土署今年1月公布營造業經濟概況調查在2022年臺灣的營造業缺工人數高達48,669人這是國土署的一個具體的數字所以我們目前"},{"start":439.029,"end":459.9,"text":"銀造業這個開放的狀態也不夠嗎?我再跟你們講一件事情,我在從新竹來,新竹當時很積極地在推保三二期,因為要給台積電更好的一個狀態,我們都非常的支持,可是你知道,當他們在趕工的時候,台灣在當地的一個銀造業的工人,"},{"start":462.025,"end":462.045,"text":"﹚鄭正鈐"},{"start":486.067,"end":501.442,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":501.502,"end":504.244,"text":"我希望能夠更接地氣。至少在這個部分,勞動部跟內政部這邊有要解決營造業的問題,可是沒有完全解決。"},{"start":523.234,"end":536.607,"text":"所以我希望勞動部這邊能夠跟內政部這邊再重新去檢討一下對於整個營造業的移工政策是不是能夠再加以調整。因為我們這個整個民間營造業移工的開放是工程會邀集"},{"start":543.033,"end":549.559,"text":"內政部、移屆署、包括勞動部、相關部會我們一起討論出來的方案。他這個部會現在移工已經1萬5他登記我知道還沒有滿但是我覺得這個政策都會滾動性檢討這個剛上路那如果有問題我想我們跨部會都會"},{"start":562.41,"end":572.997,"text":"所以他是可能持續檢討,然後可能更符合就是基層業者他們的需求嘛,對不對?因為他們目前很多人反映的狀態是,因為他們是用檢討的方式,他們並沒有直接拼用"},{"start":585.225,"end":587.688,"text":"銀件業的這個部分銀件署就是現在的國土署有在很專業的在瞭解有多少人"},{"start":602.788,"end":618.81,"text":"然後這一些政策正在實施過程當中那你剛才講的這一些逃獄勞工呢實際上在這一些正式的勞工進來以後呢慢慢的他們會被淘汰掉或者被取代掉了那這一個部分"},{"start":620.892,"end":630.702,"text":"議員長他們沒有再取代票,他們的數字一直累積,從2019年4萬多到2023年8萬多,成長了快要一倍啊,你知道嗎?剛才就講過了嘛,這是疫情的時間,移工進不來,而且"},{"start":636.448,"end":637.129,"text":"我們給農業部已經一萬二"},{"start":666.292,"end":669.113,"text":"我不要人數一萬二,但是他進來多少人可能一萬九。"},{"start":688.282,"end":708.264,"text":"開放的外展農務人士是三千人,進來的是一千九百八十人。跟你講的一萬多人數字是不一樣的。一萬二是我給他們的額度。那我們現在知道農業移工事實上農業部這邊已經和了一千多人。我講的是外展的移工。"},{"start":709.165,"end":731.634,"text":"外展農業移根不是農業移根啊,你們這兩個名詞你都沒辦法釐清嗎?外展農業移根不是農業的移根。給他回答一下,外展這部分是3000人啊。外展的部分是3000人。對嘛,所以我講外展3000人我就特別講外展的部分。那這個部分因為他們有季節性,所以本席也特別希望說針對這樣的外展的"},{"start":735.437,"end":745.669,"text":"是不是有可能在他們不是農忙的時候有可能去支援講說營造業或者是其他的產業讓他們有可能去營造?理解"},{"start":748.952,"end":768.78,"text":"這個是我在這邊質詢的原因,我希望院長這邊是不是能夠召集農業部、勞動部、內政部跟衛福部能夠稍微針對這個部分去做一個討論,好不好?解決一個方式,否則你開放出來的外展農業移工3000個,他們都用不滿啦,因為不知道怎麼用進來,用進來他們沒有辦法給他足夠的工資。"},{"start":770.241,"end":786.501,"text":"現在的很重要的情形就是說每一個人都有他的專業嘛,那你現在說外產的這個農業員工要到民建業,他們是不是有可能去營造業做一些非技術性的工作,非技術性的工作?"},{"start":789.264,"end":810.919,"text":"好不好,非主席的工作,所以本期希望院長這邊能夠召集跨部會的一個協商,解決目前我們覺得已經碰到的一個移工政策的一個難題。這個移工的政策我們一定會在滾動的檢討,這是一定沒有什麼問題。但是剛才你講到的東西就是說不同專長的移工要讓他跨業口。我也希望你滾動檢討一下。"},{"start":814.421,"end":834.901,"text":"就是針對掛號費這個問題,因為3月4號開始嘛,那宣部長有特別提到說,那個3月8號有特別提到說我們公立醫院不會漲價,是不是有這樣的一個承諾?現在他們有統計啦,你聽部長講一下,你的擔心實際上是有點過濾的。"},{"start":835.942,"end":845.491,"text":"到目前為止我們掌握的資料是有漲價在我們那個公告之後有漲價的醫療院所包括醫院跟診所一共是57家"},{"start":847.062,"end":863.778,"text":"我們持續還在監測當中是來那個部長因為時間有限就是說因為剛開始3月份才剛開始現在才3月中旬而已所以還沒有完全漲上來可是部長之前有承諾就是說公立院不漲能夠持續6、9不漲"},{"start":867.962,"end":888.642,"text":"我想一年大概可以了。一年內不漲,一年之後可能就會漲。我要特別提到是說,因為這個關號被取消上線的這個部分的時候,其實已經嚴重的影響到了很多醫生他們擔心當公立醫院不漲的情況之下的時候,那區域診所長"},{"start":889.423,"end":891.004,"text":"謝謝政委員、政監的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告委員會"},{"start":919.502,"end":921.309,"text":"徒委員全集3月15日經濟組登記之質詢以"}]}},{"id":"150430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee8603c1e99ed4a0d08ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a63678eecdf53964765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"15:50:04 - 16:05:36","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-03-26T16:05:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T15:50:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（15時50分）謝謝主席，是不是請一下陳院長？"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員午安。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長午安。經過這一整天的詢答，院長辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["邱委員議瑩：剛剛質詢的王正旭委員，他是癌症治療專家……"],["陳院長建仁：是，很專家。"],["邱委員議瑩：很巧地，他所有的質詢內容都跟癌症的治療或者是新藥有關係。院長，您跟我都是癌症的病友，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我接下來要跟院長請教，我們要討論的這個議題，我相信院長您大概知道我要問什麼。談到全球的再生醫療，再生醫療法其實我們推動了很久，再生醫療的研究、生技醫療的研究是一條漫長的路，小英總統這樣說過，但是我覺得再生醫療雙法的推動更是一條漫長的路。","院長，我讓您看一下，這是全球再生醫療產業的現況，到2023年的第三季為止，全球已經有1,803項的再生醫療臨床試驗在進行中；所有的開發商，相較於2022年的1,457家，到2023年已經大幅增長了77%。這一頁是全球推動再生醫療的大事記，日本早在2013年就通過再生醫療的促進法，2014年通過了再生醫療法；美國在2016年通過21世紀醫療法，在2022年FDA發布了最新的「再生醫療標準認可計畫」；韓國也在2019年通過先進再生醫療跟生物製藥的安全支持法案。","院長，我請您再看一下，這是在2023年上市的再生醫療的產品。全世界各國，包括歐盟、日本、美國，大家一直紛紛地在研究所謂的再生醫療的產品，他們已經從自體細胞的治療不只進步到異體細胞的治療，甚至基因的治療反而是新上市的這些產品的大宗。","這是我追溯最早到2018年，小英總統在出席生技展的時候公開這樣說「生技醫療產品的研發是一條漫長的路，不過政府責無旁貸，我們希望能夠陪伴我們的企業迎接所有的挑戰。」包括總統在2022年，他每一年去參加生技展，每一年都會講要推動生技，要推動再生醫療，包括院長您在今年出席工商早餐會的時候也特別談到，希望生醫成為下一座護國神山，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。院長，我讓您看一下，這是我們賴清德總統提出的健康臺灣的政見，當然也提到了精準醫療、再生醫療，甚至癌症的防治等等。這一頁是我們臺灣在推動再生醫療法的整個進程，2015年應該是臺灣最早接觸到再生醫療，這是因為八仙塵爆的時候，我們接受了日本捐贈的所謂的自體細胞層片來醫治燒傷的病人，所以這是臺灣最早接觸到所謂的自體細胞產品；2015年同年有一個癌友叫CASPER，他在國發會的平臺上發起連署癌症免疫療法的修法法案，短短9天之內5,000人附議達標，而我也是在2015年看到這個法案之後開始投入再生醫療、投入細胞免疫療法法案的研究；接下來一直到2018年，我們通過了特管辦法；2019年因為屆期不連續，我們沒有辦法通過再生醫療法；2021年生技醫藥產業發展條例的通過，納入了再生醫療、精準醫療、數位醫療，甚至我記得在2021年您還在中研院的時候，我也曾經去拜訪您，就教在再生醫療法案的推動上面我們應該注意的事項；很可惜到2023年還是沒有辦法通過。"],["陳院長建仁：屆期不續審的關係。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，請您再看一下，目前臺灣雖然沒有通過再生醫療法，但是我們有2018年通過的特管辦法，這是到目前為止，衛福部核可的特管辦法所收治的案例。我不知道部長您有沒有去做過統計，這樣的一個特管辦法的審查，每一個案例的審查時間，我剛剛初步算了一下，每一個案例審查的時間大概要3個月到6個月不等，而且是 case by case的審查，這一家生技業者所做出來的產品，即使上一個案在某A醫院通過審查之後，他在B醫院要做的時候，它還是要重新送件再審查一次，平均3到6個月，我不知道有多少癌症的病人可以等這麼久的時間。","再生醫療法不過，臺灣很多的生技業者不管是在研發上面、在推動上面，甚至在跟國際合作上面，其實我們都會受到許多的限制。","院長，我請您再看一下這個統計，我們衛福部有要求要從事再生醫療的醫療人員、醫師人員必須接受這樣的教育訓練課程，可是您可以看到，從 107年也就是2018年有2,099人報名參加，一直到去年只剩下494人參加，那是因為大家不關心再生醫療嗎？不是，反而因為我們的法令沒有過，讓很多業者開始地下化，因為無法可管、無法可罰，所以你沒有辦法去取締它，你也沒有辦法去罰它，甚至你也沒有辦法好好地、認真地嚴格審查這一些廠商的細胞製程過程到底合不合法、到底合不合衛福部所有GMP的規定，對不對？所以您同意我的這個看法。","這個是我大概擷取了幾個再生醫療的發展，包括杜元坤教授做膝蓋軟骨細胞，應該是臺灣的首屈一指。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：包括現在我們不只做細胞治療，我們連外泌體、沒有細胞的治療都已經在蓬勃地發展、推動，可是我不知道在推動這一部法案的過程裡頭，如果從我於2015年開始接觸，一直到現在2024年，將近快要10個年頭了，很久，真的很久。","這個大概是衛福部的再生醫療法版本，那我知道衛福部最近開始在辦說明會，在21日辦了一場，在28日也辦了一場，這個說明會很詭異，它沒有開放報名，它是採用邀請制，部長，您可不可以說明一下為什麼會是這樣處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前再生醫療法是這樣子，從上一次在立法院就差了臨門一腳，然後屆期不續審，現在我們跟行政院這邊討論的結果是我們不會退到衛福部來，所以會在行政院那邊繼續做一個審查，再來就會送立法院。在這中間條文的部分並沒有太大的差異，只有在順序上面可能有一個調動，因為過去在批評這個再生醫療法的誤解的情形就是以為再生醫療不用人體試驗，但是這是錯的觀念，所有的再生醫療如果要變成常規化的話，都一定要經過人體試驗，除了在幾個條件之下的話，才可以不用等人體試驗完成。"],["邱委員議瑩：就是所謂的 conditional approval。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是這種情形，那因為這一個改變屬於比較小的，所以目前我們已經把新的調整過的這個版本送到行政院……"],["陳院長建仁：3月20日送到行政院。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，政委會再審查過一次，就會送到立法院了。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想聽一下院長的看法，因為本席大概是對再生醫療比較關心的委員之一……"],["陳院長建仁：是，也都大力推動。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我其實很想知道行政院的態度，剛剛部長也講得很清楚，但是我還是想從院長的口中聽到，到底行政院對於推動這樣的一個醫療方案、對於推動臺灣的醫療進程，行政院有沒有信心？有沒有願意很努力的來跟社會大眾，甚至跟醫界、跟某些不瞭解的人來進行溝通？"],["陳院長建仁：對，在上個會期沒有通過就讓我很失望了，但是我一直請衛福部應該再加緊腳步，然後在整個新的會期趕快送出來，謝謝衛福部3月20日就送到行政院，我會請政委趕快加速審查以後，最起碼我相信在這一、兩個月的時間內，我們就送出行政院、送到大院來，當然我是很希望看到520之前能夠送出我們行政院。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，我其實也很期待520之前能夠趕快通過，甚至不要等到520，我覺得越快通過越好啦！我真的覺得就是很多的癌症病患或者是很多臺灣的病友，殷切的期盼這樣一個新的療法能夠讓它合法上市，所以我相信包括立法院裡頭很多醫界的委員，包括王正旭委員，包括蘇巧慧委員等等，我們大家都願意持續努力來推動，趕快把這個再生醫療的雙法推動通過。","院長，我接下來要請教這個是比較時事題，因為漲電價，所以最近包括經濟部甚至包括行政院被批評的很多，這個是經濟部的圖卡，它說用電比較多的麵包店，你可以改選時間電價，1個月可以省1萬7,000，這個時間電價，經濟部或者是台電沒有告訴大家的是，你要用時間電價，你必須先去安裝智慧電表。院長，這您知道吧！"],["陳院長建仁：是，要不少時間。"],["邱委員議瑩：你要安裝智慧電表還沒那麼簡單，院長給你看一下，台電的網站上面告訴大家，智慧電表是逐年分批布建，你不能主動去申請，除非是用電大戶或者是你的住家有再生能源併網才可以，所以很多人現在也沒有辦法去申請智慧電表。我們叫麵包店用時間電價，他如果沒有智慧電表，也沒有所謂的時間電價可以申請，甚至很多人常常在半夜洗衣服，像我常常就會半夜洗衣服，後來才發現半夜洗衣服其實也沒有比較省錢，因為你沒有智慧電表。","智慧電表只有住家可以裝嗎？可能部長還要再上來，這個是我今天早上請衛福部幫我整理的資料，部立醫院裡頭有安裝智慧電表的還滿多的，但是也有很多醫院沒有安裝智慧電表，比如說新營醫院、恆春醫院、八里療養院、嘉南療養院、玉里醫院都沒有安裝智慧電表，這是醫院喔！我再給您看高雄市醫療院所裝置智慧電表的情況，高雄市的市立醫院、高醫大附設醫院，甚至國軍總醫院都沒有安裝智慧電表，所以他們根本也沒有辦法申請所謂的時間電價，也沒有辦法能夠有更多的節電措施。院長，這個就是我要說的，我們在講說電價漲了，對於醫療院所的負擔是沉重的，但是有沒有可能，衛福部你們先去盤點這些醫療院所，到底有哪些連智慧電表都沒裝？是不是能夠push他們，或者是我們責成台電、要求台電跨部會合作，讓智慧電表早日把所有的醫療院所全部普及，有沒有可能？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們讓衛福部跟經濟部一起努力，這個盤點應該不是太困難，因為經濟部一定有data，然後醫院，衛福部這邊有醫院的名單，match一下大概就可以有了，我想請他們跨部會來做。"],["邱委員議瑩：當然我們在談到要不要補貼醫院或者是醫院要不要凍漲電費，我覺得安裝智慧電表這件事情就是第一步。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以是不是能夠請衛福部也能夠加速，至少你先盤點這一塊好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為我接下來剩下不到1分鐘的時間，我想就這最後的50秒，我還是要謝謝陳建仁院長，您帶領的團隊在這段時間以來，我相信對臺灣做了非常多的貢獻跟努力，我們還是要謝謝您，今天是最後一次對您的總質詢，我想也非常感謝您過去一段時間的努力，也希望未來不管陳院長您在哪一個崗位上，是不是也能夠一起繼續守護臺灣，不只守護臺灣的健康，也守護臺灣的經濟，守護臺灣的永續發展，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝，我們幾位委員特別準備了一束花要來送給陳建仁院長，表達我們對您的祝福跟感謝，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢。","接下來第17位洪委員申翰之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員洪申翰書面質詢：","近期經濟部「彰濱工業區資源化處理中心BOT案」（下稱：晶鼎焚化爐）」的環評程序及公開說明會召開方式引發爭議。","依據《環境影響評估法》第7條第3項：「前項審查結論主管機關認不須進行第二階段環境影響評估並經許可者，開發單位應舉行公開之說明會」，然開發單位所舉辦之公開說明會，顯然有重大的程序瑕疵。","在今年3月14日上午10時召開的說明會，早在7點多時開發單位即安排上百名動員者至說明會場內坐滿座席，導致多數當地自救會的民眾甚至是民意代表無法進入會場內入座。","現場亦有多位立委、議員及代表在說明會現場，指出在地民眾無法進場表達意見的情況，對說明會的程序問題表達抗議，但開發單位完成不受理、也不處理，甚至強行宣布會議開始。","質詢問題一：","開發單位應舉行之公開說明會，目的是為讓民眾充分得知資訊並有完整表達意見的權利與空間。上述晶鼎焚化爐公開說明會，由開發單位動員上百名人士提早進場，亦不受理現場民眾提出的程序瑕疵問題，並在吵鬧、喧囂的過程中草草讀過說明簡報，請問院長及環境部，這符合環境部所認定公開說明會已舉辦完成的要件嗎？","3月14日該次會議召開，顯然不符合公開說明會應充分說明相關開發案之資訊要旨，亦未有開放民眾得表達意見的空間，更沒有取得與自救會間的共識，甚至加深矛盾與對立。本席認為，環境部應該依據說明會舉辦之要旨及規範，審酌過程中是否符合相關條件，在開發單位提供相關書面報告後加以審查。","除此之外，由於現場亦有許多民意代表、在地民眾及媒體，將現場之狀況以照片、影片及文字之方式加以紀錄，本席認為環境部在審酌該次公開說明會是否符合程序時，應參酌各方提供的現場狀況資訊，作為審查過程中參考之資料。","質詢問題二：","為更全面的瞭解3月14日「彰濱工業區資源化處理中心BOT案」開發單位舉辦之公開說明會是否符合說明會舉辦之程序及要件，環境部除參酌開發單位的書面報告外，是否會參酌其他參與者所記錄或拍攝之照片、影片及文字於審查過程中？","本席認為《環境影響評估法》立法規定應舉辦公開說明會之要旨，即是要求開發單位應充分與在地民眾溝通。","若此案業者蓄意動員群眾塞滿說明會場地，阻絕在地居民及自救會參與說明會，排除民意代表及在地居民之意見於說明會討論之外的作法，還能夠符合環評公開說明會之要件，恐導致未來開發單位皆以類似作法來操作，將使環評法規流於形式，也使得公開說明會失去舉辦的意義，並徒增地方對立、不滿及衝突。"],["主席：再接下來我們請今天登記第18號鄭委員正鈐質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.35096875,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.04659375,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.712218750000002,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.387218750000002,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.92159375,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.95096875,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.621593750000002,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.50284375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.73034375,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.61596875,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.72971875,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.38659375,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.719093750000006,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.596593750000004,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.66346875,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.680343750000006,"end":57.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.367843750000006,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":63.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.96159375,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.74159375,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.80784375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.73096875,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.99159375,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.93159375,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.23034375,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.01909375000001,"end":104.89221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.36471875000001,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.81971875,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.50159375000001,"end":124.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.54721875000001,"end":125.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.85096875,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.21346875,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.95534375,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.08971875,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.65034375000002,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.56971875000002,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.84346875,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.14221875,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.23909375000002,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.19659375,"end":157.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.09909375,"end":161.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.42346875,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.14784375000002,"end":171.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.60721875000002,"end":180.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":191.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.44409375,"end":191.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.86159375000003,"end":200.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.43846875000003,"end":202.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.07096875000002,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.89346875,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.42471875,"end":210.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.15409375000002,"end":226.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.12784375,"end":217.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.15659375,"end":222.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.46034375000002,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.49409375000002,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.61159375000003,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.56909375,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.50971875000002,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.19721875000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.37346875000003,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.17471875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.33909375000002,"end":242.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.28409375,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.47346875000002,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.11409375000002,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.53159375,"end":255.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.95721875,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.14221875000004,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.84159375,"end":266.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.34284375000004,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.25346875,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.02971875000003,"end":281.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.13909375000003,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.07971875000004,"end":283.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.03284375000004,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.36596875000004,"end":293.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.84221875000003,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.99346875000003,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.10284375000003,"end":298.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.15284375000005,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.42659375,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.39221875000004,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.65346875,"end":315.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.77909375,"end":318.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.24284375,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.83159375,"end":332.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.12659375000004,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.74221875,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.95659375,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.77909375,"end":344.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.93909375000004,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.23284375000003,"end":357.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.41784375000003,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.85221875,"end":365.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.01596875,"end":367.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.55159375000005,"end":369.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.13346875,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.65221875000003,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.31034375,"end":374.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.95971875000004,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.36409375000005,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.30909375000005,"end":383.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.54471875,"end":385.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.45596875,"end":386.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.89034375,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.47221875,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.49284375,"end":392.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.28596875000005,"end":394.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.70346875,"end":396.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.74534375,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.53409375,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.96846875,"end":406.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.41034375000004,"end":414.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.05471875,"end":416.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.75909375000003,"end":422.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.41221875,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.22596875000005,"end":429.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.09034375000005,"end":435.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.64221875000004,"end":435.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.69284375,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.01721875000004,"end":440.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.77221875000004,"end":446.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.11284375,"end":449.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.85096875000005,"end":452.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.39909375,"end":457.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.19159375000004,"end":458.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.86221875,"end":460.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.49471875,"end":462.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.09784375000004,"end":463.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.56159375000004,"end":468.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.83534375000005,"end":473.34096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.50971875000005,"end":474.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.72034375000004,"end":477.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.69471875000005,"end":478.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.15846875000005,"end":481.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.53346875000005,"end":485.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.57534375000006,"end":486.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.02659375,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.67534375,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.80096875000004,"end":500.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.03284375000004,"end":509.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.14534375000005,"end":515.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.20346875,"end":516.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.54096875,"end":518.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.2622187500001,"end":524.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.5903437500001,"end":525.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.36221875,"end":531.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.69471875,"end":535.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.91346875,"end":544.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.1103437500001,"end":545.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.5828437499999,"end":549.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.1772187500001,"end":551.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.79721875,"end":552.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.1428437500001,"end":571.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.79096875,"end":564.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.29721875,"end":564.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.3647187500001,"end":564.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.25409375,"end":572.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.51534375,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.07221875,"end":573.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.1140937499999,"end":576.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.4428437500001,"end":589.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.09659375,"end":579.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.53534375,"end":581.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.85909375,"end":587.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.3015937499999,"end":593.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.86221875,"end":595.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.65096875,"end":603.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.1940937500001,"end":625.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.44784375,"end":633.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.11346875,"end":641.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.36534375,"end":650.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.91659375,"end":652.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.48596875,"end":667.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.4497187500001,"end":670.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.64346875,"end":674.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.9297187500001,"end":676.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.51159375,"end":682.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.1140937499999,"end":684.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.67909375,"end":688.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.6828437500001,"end":692.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.0703437500001,"end":693.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.6440937500001,"end":694.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.79159375,"end":695.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.68596875,"end":696.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.7365937500001,"end":697.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.06971875,"end":701.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.84096875,"end":714.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.46346875,"end":716.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.03284375,"end":717.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.28159375,"end":718.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.00721875,"end":731.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.8659687500001,"end":734.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.5109687500001,"end":735.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.9497187500001,"end":737.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.6540937500001,"end":739.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.55659375,"end":740.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.82221875,"end":743.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.9653437500001,"end":745.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.75409375,"end":746.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.74971875,"end":747.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.94784375,"end":750.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.5803437500001,"end":752.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.77409375,"end":755.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.58784375,"end":763.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.89471875,"end":769.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.2397187500001,"end":773.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.17596875,"end":774.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.69471875,"end":777.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.66471875,"end":779.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.0734687500001,"end":787.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.3003437500001,"end":799.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.7709687500001,"end":802.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.70721875,"end":815.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.47721875,"end":827.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.4797187500001,"end":828.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.40784375,"end":828.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.57659375,"end":835.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.01846875,"end":845.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.2322187500001,"end":855.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.9778437500001,"end":852.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.99471875,"end":853.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.3490937500001,"end":853.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.17159375,"end":856.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.12909375,"end":864.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.7565937500001,"end":867.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.4565937500001,"end":872.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.70471875,"end":873.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.24034375,"end":877.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.61534375,"end":879.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.64034375,"end":883.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.52159375,"end":891.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.9084687500001,"end":909.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":900.3797187500002,"end":900.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.39659375,"end":901.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.6609687500002,"end":910.0828437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.258,"end":8.762,"text":"謝謝主席。我是不是請一下陳院長。再請陳院長備詢。邱永安"},{"start":15.816,"end":43.421,"text":"院長午安,院長辛苦了,經過這一整天的這個詢答。那剛剛王振旭委員他是癌症治療專家。是,很專家。那很巧的,他提到的所有的質詢的內容都跟癌症的治療或者是新藥有關係。院長您跟我都是癌症的病友。是。所以我接下來要跟院長請教,我們要討論的這個議題,我相信院長您大概知道我要問什麼。"},{"start":46.411,"end":67.491,"text":"全球再生醫療法其實我們推動了很久再生醫療的研究生技醫療的研究是一條漫長的路小英總統這樣說過但是我覺得再生醫療雙法的推動更是一條漫長的路院長我讓您看一下這個是全球再生醫療產業的現況"},{"start":69.793,"end":76.579,"text":"到2023年的第三季為止,全球已經有1803項的再生醫療臨床試驗在進行中。所有的這個開發商相較於2022年的1457家,到2023年已經大幅增長了77%。"},{"start":91.355,"end":114.163,"text":"這個是全球推動再生醫療的大事跡日本早在2013年就通過再生醫療的促進法2014年通過了再生醫療法美國在2016年通過21世紀醫療法在2022年FDA發布了最新的再生醫療標準認可計畫"},{"start":117.625,"end":124.195,"text":"韓國也在2019年通過先進再生醫療跟生物製藥的安全支持法案"},{"start":126.018,"end":150.672,"text":"院長我請您再看一下這個是在2023年上市的再生醫療的產品全世界各國包括歐盟、日本、美國大家一直紛紛的在研究所謂的再生醫療的產品他們已經從自體細胞的治療不只進步到液體細胞的治療甚至基因的治療反而是新上市的這些產品的大宗"},{"start":152.519,"end":170.788,"text":"這個呢我追溯到最早2018年小英總統在出席生技展的時候公開的這樣說生技醫療產品的研發是一條漫長的路不過政府責無旁貸我們希望能夠陪伴我們的企業迎接所有的挑戰那包括"},{"start":174.353,"end":190.812,"text":"總統在2022年他每一年去參加生技展每一年都會講要推動生技要推動再生醫療包括院長您在今年出席工商早餐會的時候也特別談到希望生醫成為下一座的護國神山對不對"},{"start":192.898,"end":203.41,"text":"院長我讓您看一下這個當然是我們賴清德總統的推動的健康台灣的政見當然也提到了精準醫療再生醫療甚至癌症的防治等等"},{"start":205.75,"end":229.691,"text":"這個是我們在臺灣對於再生醫療法推動的整個進程。2015年應該是臺灣最早接觸到再生醫療這個是因為八仙晨報的時候我們接受了日本捐贈的所謂的細胞自體細胞成片來醫治燒傷的病人所以這個是臺灣最早接觸到所謂的自體細胞產品2015年同年"},{"start":230.552,"end":254.935,"text":"有一個癌友叫Casper他在國發會的平台裡頭發起連署癌症免疫療法的修法的法案短短9天之內5000人復疫達標而我也是在2015年看到這個法案之後開始投入再生醫療投入細胞免疫療法的這樣的一個法案的研究當然一直到2018年我們通過了特管辦法"},{"start":255.996,"end":256.636,"text":"院長,請再看一下。"},{"start":285.366,"end":307.925,"text":"這個是目前臺灣雖然沒有通過再生醫療法但是我們有特管辦法18年通過的特管辦法這個是到目前為止衛福部合可的特管辦法所收治的案例我不知道部長您大概有沒有去做過統計這樣的一個特管辦法的審查每一個案例的審查時間"},{"start":309.667,"end":337.25,"text":"我初步剛剛算了一下每一個案例審查的時間大概要3個月到6個月不等而且case by case的審查這一家生技業者他所做出來的產品即使上一個案在某A醫院通過審查之後他在B醫院要做的時候他還是要重新送件再審查一次平均3到6個月我不知道有多少癌症的病人可以等這麼久的時間"},{"start":340.984,"end":356.497,"text":"在生意療法不過臺灣很多的生技業者在不管是在研發上面在推動上面甚至在跟國際合作的上面其實我們都會受到許多的限制院長我請您再看一下這個統計"},{"start":359.411,"end":381.424,"text":"我們衛福部有要求要從事再生醫療的醫療人員醫師人員必須接受這樣的一個教育訓練的課程可是您可以看到從107年也就是2018年的2099人報名參加一直到去年只剩下494人參加"},{"start":385.532,"end":413.9,"text":"是因為大家關心再生醫療嗎?不是反而因為我們的法令沒有過讓很多業者開始地下化因為無法可管無法可罰所以你沒有辦法去取締它你也沒有辦法去罰它甚至你也沒有辦法好好的認真的嚴格審查這些廠商的細胞製成的過程"},{"start":415.06,"end":437.823,"text":"到底合不合法?到底合不合衛福部所有的GMP的規定?對不對?所以您同意我的這個看法。這個是我大概擷取了幾個再生醫療的發展,包括杜元坤教授做膝蓋軟骨細胞,應該是台灣的首屈一指。包括現在我們不只"},{"start":439.093,"end":440.214,"text":"再生醫療法這個是大概是衛福部的版本"},{"start":468.922,"end":474.231,"text":"那我知道衛福部最近開始在辦說明會21號辦了一場28號也辦了一場這個說明會很詭異他沒有開放報名他是採用邀請制"},{"start":483.621,"end":508.978,"text":"部長您可不可以說明一下為什麼會是這樣處理?根據委員報告目前再生醫療法現在是這樣子從上一次在立法院就插了林門一腳然後屆時不續審所以現在我們是跟行政院這邊討論的結果是我們不會退到衛福部來"},{"start":510.359,"end":534.309,"text":"所以會在行政院那邊繼續做一個審查就會送立法院這中間條文的部分並沒有太大的差異只有這個順序上面可能有一個調動因為過去在批評這個再生醫療法的誤解的情形就是以為是再生醫療不用人體試驗"},{"start":535.97,"end":550.107,"text":"但是這是錯的觀念所謂的再生醫療如果要變成常規化的話都一定要經過人體試驗除了有幾個條件之下的話才可以不用等人體試驗完成對就是這種情形"},{"start":553.231,"end":576.414,"text":"那這些因為這一個改變屬於說比較小的所以目前我們已經把新的調整過了這個版本送到行政院那那個政委會再審查過一次就會送到立法院我想聽一下院長的看法因為我們本席大概是對再生醫療"},{"start":579.67,"end":602.826,"text":"所以我其實很想知道就行政院的態度剛剛部長也講得很清楚但是我還是想從院長的口中裡頭去聽到到底行政院對於推動這樣的一個醫療方案對於推動台灣的醫療進程行政院有沒有信心有沒有願意很努力的來跟社會大眾甚至跟醫界跟某些不了解的人來進行溝通"},{"start":603.486,"end":625.215,"text":"對,在上個會期沒有通過就讓我很失望了但是我一直請衛福部應該再加緊然後在這個新的會期趕快送出來謝謝衛福部3月20日就送到行政院我會請政委趕快的再加速審查以後最起碼我相信在這一兩個月的時間內我們就送出"},{"start":633.923,"end":644.713,"text":"我其實也很期待520之前能夠趕快通過甚至不要等到520我覺得越快通過越好啦我真的覺得就是說很多的癌症病患或者是說很多的台灣的病友"},{"start":645.213,"end":645.913,"text":"院長,那我接下來要請教這個是比較實事題。"},{"start":668.787,"end":694.585,"text":"這個呢因為漲電價所以最近包括經濟部甚至包括行政院被批評的很多這個是經濟部的圖卡他說用電比較多的麵包店呢你可以改選時間電價一個月可以省一萬七那這個時間電價經濟部或者是台電沒有告訴大家的是你要用時間電價你必須先去安裝智慧電表院長這您知道吧"},{"start":695.746,"end":717.385,"text":"你要安裝智慧電表還沒那麼簡單來院長給你看一下齁臺電的網站上面告訴大家智慧電表是逐年分批部件你不能主動去申請除非是用電大戶或者是你的住家有再生能源併網才可以所以很多人現在"},{"start":718.166,"end":741.015,"text":"來﹖"},{"start":742.258,"end":754.994,"text":"這個可能部長您還要再上來這個是我今天早上請衛福部幫我整理了一下部立醫院裡頭有安裝智慧電表的"},{"start":757.65,"end":779.48,"text":"但是也有很多的醫院是沒有安裝智慧電表比如說新營醫院、恆春醫院、巴黎療養院、嘉南療養院、玉里醫院這個都沒有安裝智慧電表這是醫院喔來我再給您看這是高雄市的醫療院所裝置智慧電表的情況"},{"start":781.124,"end":798.84,"text":"高雄市的市立醫院、高醫大輔社醫院甚至國軍總醫院都沒有安裝智慧電表所以他們根本也沒有辦法申請所謂的時間電價也沒有辦法能夠更有更多的節電措施"},{"start":799.821,"end":814.802,"text":"院長這個就是我要說的我們在講說電價漲了對於醫療院所的負擔是沉重的但是有沒有可能衛福部你們先去盤點這些醫療院所到底有哪些連智慧電表都沒裝"},{"start":816.553,"end":844.435,"text":"是不是能夠push他們或者是我們責成臺電要求臺電跨部會合作讓智慧電表早日把所有的醫療院所全部普及有沒有可能我想我們讓衛福部跟經濟部一起努力這個應該盤點不是太困難因為經濟部一定有data然後衛福部這邊有醫院的名單match一下大概就可以有了我想請他們跨部會來做"},{"start":845.285,"end":856.438,"text":"當然我們在談到要不要補貼醫院或者是醫院要不要動漲電費我覺得安裝智慧電表這件事情就是第一步所以是不是能夠請衛福部也能夠加速"},{"start":857.719,"end":878.776,"text":"至少你先盤點這一塊好不好?好那因為我接下來剩下不到一分鐘的時間我想就這最後的50秒我還是要謝謝陳建仁院長您帶領的團隊在這一段時間以來我相信對台灣做了非常多的貢獻跟努力我們還是要謝謝您"},{"start":879.697,"end":908.556,"text":"那今天是最後一次對您的總質詢那我想也非常感謝您過去一段時間的努力也希望未來不管陳院長您在哪一個崗位上是不是也能夠一起繼續守護台灣不只守護台灣的健康也守護台灣的經濟守護台灣的永續發展好不好謝謝那我們幾位委員呢特別也準備了一束花要來送給陳建仁院長表達我們對您的祝福跟感謝謝謝"},{"start":909.497,"end":910.196,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eec5e8b88f5e1f029d8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6703828fa4814d4fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"15:34:11 - 15:49:51","影片長度":"00:15:40","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":940,"end_time":"2024-03-26T15:49:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T15:34:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（15時34分）謝謝韓院長，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員正旭：院長好。謝謝您當年給我的證書。這是幫助很多年輕學子進入到生命科學領域一本很重要的著作，特別令人感動的是在書本上閱讀到了您的父親在您晉升教授的時候，提供給您的期許和祝福，見證您後來在學術上擔任了中央研究院的院士，在政治上也擔任了副總統，現在又擔任行政院長的工作，相信大部分的民眾會和我一樣，衷心感謝您對臺灣人民全心全力的付出。您的父親應該也會讚許您的成就，或許他會捨不得您現在的辛苦，不過，我相信這一切都是值得的。"],["陳院長建仁：我仍然是以做公僕的心態來服務大家，希望能夠符合我爸爸的要求。"],["王委員正旭：接下來還是要利用這次總質詢的機會來就教您三個我認為的重要問題，一個是癌症防治的篩檢問題；一個是癌症新藥基金，這點已經有很多委員都提過；另外就是研議是否成立國家B肝防治辦公室這三個問題。","有關癌症防治，尤其在篩檢部分有其很重要的角色，您是這方面的專家，應該很清楚癌症已經是過去41年來對臺灣民眾最嚴重的生命致死疾病。依照2022年的數據告訴我們，當年就有5萬1,927個民眾因為癌症而死亡，占了當年四分之一的民眾死亡因素。所以，我們很努力希望能透過很多、很多好的方式，不管是醫藥的研究或醫藥的新進步，儘量減少癌症對民眾的死亡威脅。","我們也看得出，20年前的5年存活率為46.1%，到目前為止，已經提升到61.5%。也就是過去20年來其實已經把存活率提升了15.4%。但相較於韓國的5年存活率為70%、日本的65%，其實我們還有很大的進步空間。對於要進步的空間，我想身為醫師專業的賴清德總統當選人，他其實是非常有感受的，所以他很希望在打造健康臺灣的過程中，可以在2030年把癌症死亡率、死亡人數下降三分之一，這就是我們未來必須共同努力的方向。三分之一的概念，就是可能可以下降1萬5,000個的死亡人數，約略與2022年差不多是COVID的死亡人數，所以這是一個很大的目標。院長，你是這方面的專家，我們也知道在2003年癌症防治法成立以後，從2010年開始，比較大規模的癌症防治，包括篩檢部分，已經將近14年了。院長，你覺得或是你認同目前臺灣執行中的五大癌症篩檢是合乎我們目前的預設目標嗎？還有，你滿意這些成果嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：目前我們對這4個癌症的篩檢是2004年我當衛生署署長時所大力推動的，如同你這裡寫的一樣，實際上我們看到死亡率有在明顯的下降。我們跟美國國家癌症研究中心有做過相關的分析，我們覺得還需要再更加地普及相關篩檢，其中一個很重要的篩檢就是肺癌篩檢。我們在前兩、三年就開始推動肺癌篩檢，因為肺腺癌，特別是有家族史者得肺腺癌很高。現在肺癌的發生期數都比較高，如果能夠篩檢的話，就可以讓0期的、1期的被發現，像我自己一樣，這個時候存活率就會很高，這是我們該發展的另外一個部分。另外，有關篩檢方式也可以再精進，這部分委員是專家，我們會一起來努力。"],["王委員正旭：的確，使用低劑量檢查做肺癌篩檢，其實1個週年就能拯救500個家庭，這是一個很好的數字。我們也知道在這過程裡其實可以發揮更多的效益，因為這些透過篩檢檢查出來的病人，基本上都是很早期的癌症，經過適當的治療幾乎都是可以痊癒的。不過我們還是會擔心，我們看到的就是篩檢率，如果篩檢有這麼好的成果，我們的篩檢率能不能有辦法適度的再提升？因為我們看到其實民眾參與篩檢的，理論上我們希望更高，當然，相較於全球各國並不是比較差，可是我們希望，既然有這麼好的成果，有辦法再提升嗎？因為我們看到有40%的民眾符合條件，可是他來篩檢的機會就損失掉了，非常、非常可惜。我們也特別關注到到有一些民眾他是陽篩，所謂陽篩就是初步檢查看起來是需要持續做後續處理的，我們看到大腸癌陽篩的百分比相較於乳癌、子宮頸癌就真的差很多。這部分您是專家，目前到底有什麼樣的因素會讓我們民眾對於篩檢是不願意來充分參與，對於陽篩的後續追蹤也會有所畏懼，不知道您的看法？"],["陳院長建仁：篩檢率的增加就是怎麼讓它更普及，委員看的是單年的部分，如果以累積篩檢率來看，確實還有將近20%到30%的民眾沒有去參加篩檢。這個部分我們要加強宣導，而且讓它的篩檢能夠更普及，也希望各級醫院能夠來協助癌症篩檢的工作，這個部分我們國健署有在努力。","但是篩檢陽性的、陽追的部分也是一樣，怎麼樣讓篩檢陽性者能夠讓他去做更進一步的診療，這個就很重要。我想未來我們也希望衛福部能來提一個陽追的計畫，讓醫院能夠主動積極地來幫忙做陽追，這個部分可能可以做得更好。所以癌症篩檢也是剛才我們跟蘇委員在講的預防醫學的這一塊，我想我們來訂定一個計畫，看怎麼樣把陽追率能夠達到很高，要不的話篩檢就很可惜了，篩檢完沒有去做陽追很可惜。"],["王委員正旭：對，這真的是非常可惜。這邊我們瞭解到影響國人篩檢意願的可能因素就包括我們所列出來的這幾項，其中有一些是沒有時間，有一些是不方便，或者是說他很擔心，認為沒事檢查那個要幹嘛，這些都是讓民眾不願意參加篩檢的原因。很謝謝院長，也謝謝部長，這邊也期待透過國民健康署去擬定各種更好的方法，讓民眾知道癌症篩檢對他的幫助，在參與意願升高的同時能夠有更方便的方式。","我們也瞭解，其實以大腸癌篩檢為例，如果是陽篩的話，再過來就是要準備接受大腸鏡的檢查，大腸鏡的檢查對很多民眾來講是很難去理解，尤其是他的準備過程其實是很不方便的。另外，可能他做大腸鏡的過程即使是有健保給付，可是如果他很怕痛，可能就需要做無痛式的檢查，透過這種無痛式檢查來減輕他的不舒服，可是這是需要費用的。請問一下院長，您知道做一次無痛式大腸鏡需要花費多少費用嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我印象中大概要三、四千塊錢。"],["王委員正旭：是，目前一般費用是四千到五千塊，這對民眾來講其實是一個負擔，一方面增加不方便，一方面他可能要請假，尤其是向公司請假，他要做先前的準備，又要自費負擔，所以我們很容易理解為什麼這一部分的陽追率是不如預期。請問部長或者院長，有什麼方式可以讓他們更有意願來接受大腸鏡的篩檢嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前大概是這樣子，以前這種篩檢陽性的話，要找病人到醫院去，都是由篩檢者，也就是像衛生所、基層醫師去把他轉介過來，但是這樣的效果不會很好，所以我們目前作法是希望由醫院先把篩檢陽性的名單給醫院，由醫院去把他找來，找來的好處是他可以來安排時間，這樣比較能夠符合病人的需要。至於剛剛委員提到的無痛的麻醉費用，這個我們可以再來討論一下，看看是不是在這方面也可以做補助。當然也有一個部分可能跟勞動部相關，也就是請假的問題，這個看看能不能一起來做配合。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。其實我們也很建議，如果能研議出一些節稅的措施，在減少他不方便的同時又能夠納入免稅額，也許是另外一種可行的方案。"],["陳院長建仁：醫療免稅。"],["王委員正旭：其實我們很期待企業界如果認為員工健康是企業最大資產的話，也許麻煩院長將來可以呼籲企業界從這方面幫助它的員工去做這方面的檢查，讓它的員工可以得到最大的照顧。"],["陳院長建仁：確實現在很多企業界有在這樣做，我們來努力推動。"],["王委員正旭：那就麻煩院長。其實我們知道，如果能夠再增加量能的話，當然就有機會去篩檢出更多的早期癌患，所以針對年齡限制，我們也期待透過一些相關專家學者的研議，讓這樣的年齡層可以達到更好或者是相對比較更有機會找到早期癌症的病人。以大腸癌為例，如果我們在45歲就已經開始出現大量息肉產生的時候，事實上我們就可以利用這個機會把息肉處理掉，往後就不會變成大腸癌，這個部分也希望將來能透過一些研議方式，看看能不能適度地去放寬。","其實我們最擔心的還是經費的問題，因為大量篩檢以後，真的可以找到更多的早期病人，得到更好的5年存活率，可是經費怎麼辦呢？請問院長，我們知道現在每一年會有27億、28億的癌症篩檢費用，我們看到編列出來的預算，如果期待到2030年能真的把癌症死亡率減低三分之一的話，編列的經費就要逐年增加，甚至將近要100億。可是我們發現菸害基金已經越來越不足，不知道院長對這方面的預算編列有沒有什麼更充分、穩定的財源？"],["陳院長建仁：對於這個部分，我們也希望衛福部、特別是國健署，能夠編列一個比較有雄心的癌症防治計畫，特別在篩檢的部分，當然他們本身也要做更好的規劃，看怎麼樣來做。至於經費的話，如果要達到我們希望的死亡率下降三分之一的話，確實篩檢是扮演一個很重要、很重要的角色，預防當然也是很重要，在這個部分我想我們可以來責成衛福部還有國健署這邊特別提出更精進的癌症防治計畫，然後來編列相關的經費。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。","再過來就是有關於新藥基金的部分，剛才部長也說明得很清楚，目前看起來，暫時性的專款應該是透過公務預算的撥補指定用途，然後經由健保署來統一運作，節省整個行政經費，跟俗稱的健保總額其實是沒有關聯的，所以這部分的運用將來應該會受到行政跟立法的監督，而不是跟健保委員會那邊是分開的，我的認知不知道是不是正確？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們的規劃的確是這樣子，因為行政院這邊如果預算撥補到健保基金裡面去的話，這個仍然是屬於公務預算，所以仍然要經過立法院這邊的審查，並沒有說要去迴避所謂的審查，只不過因為這是公務預算的本質，所以可能在健保會上面就是不能去左右啦。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。有關於B肝辦公室的部分，書面資料再麻煩……"],["薛部長瑞元：目前B、C肝辦公室已經有了，所以現在是改成B肝、C肝辦公室。"],["王委員正旭：那書面資料就再麻煩部長。"],["委員王正旭書面資料：","◎癌症連續41年居國人死因首位　政府應積極重視癌症防治","依據衛福部最新統計，2022年度十大死因首位為惡性腫瘤（癌症），每十萬人口癌症死亡222.7人死亡率是第二排名心臟疾病死亡101.5人的一倍以上。癌症自1982年起已連續41年居國人死因首位。另外，2022年度癌症死亡率為每十萬人口222.7人，較上年上升1.2%，近10年平均年增率為1.6%。","而依死亡率排序，前十大癌症死因依序為肺癌、肝癌、直腸癌、乳癌、攝護腺癌、口腔癌、胰臟癌、胃癌、食道癌、卵巢癌。","WHO亦預估，2030年時全球癌症死亡人數將超過1,300萬人，較2008年成長45%，而2020年全世界近1,000萬（約六分之一的死亡個案）死於癌症，其中以乳癌、肺癌及大腸癌最為常見，而台灣因為肝炎及飲食文化等影響，造成肝癌比例較高。","◎癌症影響：生命損失、增加健保醫療支出、家庭負擔加劇","由於人口快速老化，國人罹癌人數逐年上升，癌症不僅造成國人生命年數損失，近年來隨著醫療科技進步，引進新的藥品與技術，如標靶、免疫療法等，造成癌症治療醫療費用升高，2021年癌症就診病患近80萬人，健保治療癌症醫療費用約1,301億元，其中癌藥費用支出約403億元，標靶藥物占62.6%，癌症醫療負擔及癌症新藥品恐加劇健保財務問題。而新藥及新療法的高額費用，也造成癌症病患家庭健保以外的醫療費用高升，家庭負擔加劇，形成癌症醫療的財務毒性，衍生更多社會問題，因此癌症的防治，需要政府更多的重視以及資源的挹注。","◎研究實證顯示，癌症篩檢可有效降低癌症死亡率","因應癌症歷年來居十大死因之首，我國自2005年起推動「國家癌症防治計畫」，目前已執行至第五期（2024-2030年），而第一期計畫對癌症防治工作提出全面向之基礎規劃，包含初段選擇健康生活、次段提供癌症篩檢、末段罹癌患者皆獲得治療，以及提高癌友生活品質，以降低癌症發生率及死亡率為長期目標。研究實證顯示，癌症篩檢可有效降低癌症死亡率。於2010年再推動「第二期國家癌症防治計畫─癌症篩檢」，以擴大提供癌症篩檢服務為主要策略，於民眾在癌前期病變或是癌症早期即予以診斷出，經適當治療而提升存活率，甚而預防癌症的發生。2014-2018年推動第三期國家癌症防治計畫，焦點將從過去的治療、早期發現，向上力溯至癌症風險因子源頭之預防。2019-2023年第四期國家癌症防治計畫，強調透過建置永續經營的癌症防治體系、強化民眾與癌症防治人員的健康識能、強化各項服務層面工作品質、持續推動癌症篩檢，發展個人化癌症精準預防健康服務、縮小癌症防治各領域的不平等，及應用數據與實證提升癌症防治成效。","這其中國民健康署自2010年第二期計畫起，全面推廣四大癌症篩檢服務，包含糞便潛血檢查、口腔黏膜檢查、乳房X光攝影檢查、子宮頸抹片檢查。","研究顯示，定期接受口腔黏膜檢查可降低有嚼檳榔或吸菸習慣之男性26%死亡風險，每2年1次糞便潛血檢查可降低35%大腸癌死亡率，每2年1次乳房X光攝影檢查可降低41%乳癌死亡率，子宮頸抹片檢查可降低70%子宮頸癌死亡率。","近20幾年來，國人癌症五年存活率逐漸增加，1995至1999國人癌症五年相對存活率為46.1%，到2016至2020已提升至61.5%顯示癌症防治已有成效。","◎癌症篩檢率及陽追率仍然偏低尚有許多努力空間","而目前四項癌症篩檢的篩檢率及曾篩檢率分別為40%及60%，而依據國建署報告，2022年度四癌篩檢陽性個案追蹤完成率，子宮頸癌篩檢陽追率90.5%、乳癌篩檢陽追率90.6%、大腸癌篩檢陽追率72.9%及口腔癌篩檢陽追率80.3%。為持續精進癌症防治，提升篩檢率，以及後續的陽性個案追蹤率，仍有許多努力空間。","以陽追率最低的大腸癌為例，因為糞便潛血檢查為陽性者，後續將以大腸鏡檢查追蹤，而大腸鏡檢查需要前一天清空腸道，在檢查當天要請假，若怕痛又要自掏腰包進行無痛式鏡檢。目前進行一次無痛式鏡檢腸鏡，一般的行情是4,000元到5,000元。這對社會大眾一般家庭是一個經濟負擔。因此政府應研究後續的陽追檢查，應給予公假並研議補助相關檢查費用，來設法提升陽追率。","另外，我國於2022年7月1日起開辦肺癌早期偵測計畫，截至2023年1月底，已針對肺癌高風險族群（50-74歲重度吸菸者、50-74歲男性/45-74歲女性，且具肺癌家族史）篩檢人數2萬3,351人，接受篩檢者2,602人判讀結果為疑似異常，有2,233人需定期追蹤或接受確診程序。","前述國家癌症防治計畫以及辦理癌症箭檢業務主要經費來源為菸捐所設立的「菸害防制及衛生保健基金」，惟近年來該基金收入逐年遞減，2023年度基金預算數呈短絀5億餘元，2024年度預算數基金更短絀17億餘元，在主要經費來源短缺情況下，政府若欲擴大目前四項癌症篩檢以及增加肺癌篩檢項目，則必須另籌經費來源。另外，在新藥以及新療法等新興技術的臨床療效評估以及高額的醫療費用，也都是未來政府將逐漸面臨的衝擊，如何確保健保的財務健全、減輕癌症家庭的負擔、提升國人醫療服務品質，在現階段應設法增加經費來源以及透過國內商業醫療保險的推動，以確保健保基金永續經營並有效減輕國人醫療負擔。","國民健康署","過去五年癌症篩檢預算、決算及成果，以及來年預算編列、預估人數及成效。","113年3月","單位：千元、人次","註：1.109年至111年受疫情衝擊，故篩檢人數較少。","2.108年至112年為實際篩檢人次。","3.113年為預估篩檢人次，預計於114年方能提供決算數及成效。","第五期國家癌症防治計畫（2024-2030）","2024年所需經費：4,172,042千元（原所需經費共計6,664,718千元，其中欲爭取之公務預算2,492,676千元未獲核准），另2025年至2030年計畫經行政院審核刪除「健康存摺推廣費」及「補充地方公共衛生人力」等2項目公務預算經費。","2025年所需經費：7,593,347千元","2026年所需經費：7,871,020千元","2027年所需經費：8,450,077千元","2028年所需經費：8,867,106千元","2029年所需經費：9,298,762千元","2030年所需經費：9,672,566千元","◎因應癌症防治需求及癌症新藥新療法的發展及進步各界呼籲推動成立癌症新藥基金","從上一屆立法委員邱泰源、邱議瑩、林淑芬、吳思瑤等委員推動修法成立癌症新藥基金，就是為了因應癌症防治以及癌症新藥及醫療新技術發展，期能讓癌症病患及早運用新藥治療，提升存活率，並且不影響健保基金的財務負擔，並能落實癌症篩檢及追蹤，促進醫療科技的發展。但因為尚有經費來源、基金定位以及財務規劃方面的課題需要克服，因此無法順利的在上會期結束前推動完成。但是各界的共識都是認為應該要朝向這個目標努力，並且去年（2023年）5月，健保署石崇良署長、國健署吳昭軍署長也前往英國考察，針對英國癌症藥品基金（CDF）的運作模式、醫療科技評估以及財務控管等議題做交流及經驗的借鏡。會後並與英國國家健康暨照護卓越研究院（National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE）簽署合作協議。","依據健保署及國健署考察英國CDF的報告指出，英國2011年與台灣目前情境相同，癌症病友極力希望即時獲得新癌藥治療，英國政府於2011年4月正式成立CDF，惟因缺乏明確給付退場機制，實施後致預算嚴重超支；於2016年7月起，執行二代CDF，訂定明確進場原則及退場評估機制，並透過建立ICER閾值（2-3萬英鎊，如符合end of life care drugs為5萬英鎊）作為與廠商議價基礎，並藉由財務管控機制（ECM），超過編列預算之藥費由參與廠商依使用比率分攤，以降低財務風險。","並且該報告最後的心得與建議提到，綜觀英國癌症基金及創新藥品基金運作，可供借鏡如下：","一、建立CDF：健保資源極為有限，且為總額預算制度，若我國建立CDF，是否透過爭取獨立預算設癌藥基金或健保基金下之專款，將持續收集各界意見凝聚共識。","二、平行送審：針對臨床迫切需求（Unmet medical need）、具突破創新性（Breakthrough）等新藥，為加速作業，將改採「平行審查」，即廠商送食藥署查驗登記時同時送健保署建議收載給付，節省過去等待許可證審查核准時間，並以一年給付為目標，讓病友儘快使用到新藥。","三、成立台灣NICE ：我國健保給付需有醫療科技評估機構作為後盾，以精準給付，有效運用資源。透過本次與NICE簽訂夥伴合作協議，將與NICE舉辦工作坊進行相關人才培訓及跨國RWE（Real world evidence份享，強化我國醫療科技評估實力，以設立台灣NICE為目標，有效掌握新藥療效證據及效益，加速新藥收載決策，以利接軌國際治療指引。","從英國CDF成功的經驗，國內朝野共識一致希望成立癌症新藥基金，且許多病友也盼望政府的有效改革能夠讓健保給付加速新藥的納入，因此希望行政院能夠全力來支持，加速成立癌症新藥基金，或者參考英國CDF精神，每年編列專款投入健保基金運作，同時現階段衛福部應可立即規劃平行送審機制，以期讓病友加速使用到新藥。","◎應將有生育需求癌症病友生育保存機制納入健保或補助","由於癌症的治療過程中，尤其化療、放療對於病友的生育能力造成相當大的影響，尤其針對適合生育年齡的病友，應有生育保存機制，例如凍卵等醫療納入健保或補助，這將有助於病友癒後人生規劃。","◎重視下一代的健康兒童癌症質子治療盡速評估納入健保給付","兒童癌症的治療過程中，尤其是化學治療及放射治療會造成兒童正常組織的傷害，由於小朋友的身體組成及生理機能和成年人不同，且由於處於快速生長發育階段，他們的器官較成年人更易受放射線影響。例如幼兒的腦部在0至3歲間發展成熟最為迅速，年紀越小接受放療，5年內智商下降幅度越大。質子治療可以在對腫瘤的治療效果不打折的情況下，降低對正常組織的傷害。質子射束進入人體後，可以在穿透腫瘤區後停住，減少腫瘤區後面的正常組織傷害。因此質子治療對於年紀小的病童來說，是比較好的治療選項。考量到兒童的未來人生還很長遠，在治療的同時能夠降低長遠的副作用，是大家所樂見的，也是我們共同努力的方向，因此請衛福部能夠支持，重視下一代的健康，將質子治療納入兒童癌症治療的健保給付項目。","◎成立B肝國家辦公室全力推動B肝的治療、篩檢及預防，期能根除國病","過去慢性肝炎及肝硬化持續高居國人十大死因之一，因此政府特別重視肝炎的治療、篩檢及預防，政府並於2016年12月8日成立C肝國家辦公室，全力推動C肝的口服抗病毒藥物治療，篩檢及預防，目前成績最為斐然，預計2025年提前5年達成世界衛生組織2030年全球消滅病毒性肝炎的計畫。而向稱「國病」的B型肝炎，自1986年率先全球於新生兒全面施打B肝疫苗，至今成果亮眼，1984-86年以後（40歲以下）接受過疫苗注射的國人（覆蓋率97%）B型肝炎表面抗原（HBsAg）帶原率已降至1%以下，但目前全台感染B肝的人數仍約有180萬，其中約有四成病人會引起反覆性肝炎發作，有可能需要抗病毒藥物治療。","近期國內有醫學中心的研究針對1,087位服用口服抗病毒藥物的B肝相關肝硬化病人進行長期追蹤研究，其中494位為固定療程組，593位為長期服藥組，在平均追蹤10年後結果顯示，固定療程組的肝癌發生率比長期服藥組降低50%（15.7%比26.8%）>肝病死亡風險亦減少67%，同時固定療程組的HBsAg消失率也高過長期服藥組12.8倍。這項研究發表在今年3月頂級的國際期刊肝臟學（Hepatology），這結果給了固定療程B肝治療重量級的證據，比起長期服用藥物，姑不論金錢的耗用，長期服藥的不便，光是可大幅減少肝癌，增加病毒清除及增加病人存活，就值得國家重視。","目前國際上新藥開發，估計十年內尚難有類似C型肝炎短期服用即可痊癒的藥物，唯有更積極地善用目前的診療，才能更接近世衛組織訂定的防治目標。更重要的是台灣現有近200萬帶原者中約50%未接受篩檢，不知自己是否為B型肝炎表面抗原帶原者，因此錯失治療及定期篩檢肝癌的機會。","因此，建議在現有疫苗的接種和藥物治療的優良基礎上，比照C肝成立B肝國家辦公室，以更高的位階及視野來全力推動B肝的治療、篩檢及預防，期待能早日根除國病，並至少達到世衛組織2030年前肝病死亡率下降65%的目標。"],["主席：謝謝王委員正旭的質詢。王委員正旭所提出的資料，麻煩請衛福部準備，也謝謝陳院長。","接下來請登記第16號邱委員議瑩質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":2.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.480968750000002,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.497843750000001,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.007843750000003,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.95659375,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.63971875,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.20471875,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.63471875,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.65534375,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.034718750000003,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.27909375,"end":33.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.20284375,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.97471875,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.11784375,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.53096875,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.737218750000004,"end":46.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.17971875,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.80409375,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.99784375,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.07346875,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.39784375,"end":57.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.367843750000006,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.04659375000001,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.94096875,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.74659375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.95721875000001,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.88909375,"end":70.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.99034375000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.02409375,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.39471875000001,"end":75.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.06096875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.76971875000001,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.79409375,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.49409375,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.31471875000001,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.91284375000001,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.97159375000001,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.18221875,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.20284375000001,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.97659375,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.90721875,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.65784375,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.37909375,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.13409375,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.58534375000002,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.93096875,"end":155.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.75346875,"end":157.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.71096875,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.28034375000001,"end":161.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.69346875000002,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.63284375,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.46784375000001,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.75034375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.75846875000002,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.94784375,"end":182.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.77034375000002,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.80784375000002,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.81034375000002,"end":197.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.32909375,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.30346875,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.68721875,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.91034375,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.98096875000002,"end":213.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.00159375,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.71034375000002,"end":218.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.11909375000002,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.16909375,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.64534375000002,"end":227.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.43846875000003,"end":229.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.59846875000002,"end":232.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.04096875000002,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.26409375000003,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.93034375000002,"end":242.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.21659375000002,"end":243.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.09409375,"end":244.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.37659375,"end":250.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.69221875000002,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.96971875,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.17096875000004,"end":319.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.52284375,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.37346875000003,"end":319.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.66034375000004,"end":319.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.76159375000003,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.66784375000003,"end":336.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.48471875,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.17471875,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.57096875,"end":353.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.20346875,"end":355.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.27909375,"end":357.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.08471875000004,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.39221875000004,"end":363.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.34971875,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.10909375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.40409375,"end":376.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.98471875,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.06909375000004,"end":385.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.62034375,"end":388.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.08409375,"end":390.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.99096875000004,"end":391.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.88534375,"end":393.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.57284375,"end":398.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.53409375,"end":400.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.47471875,"end":401.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.82471875000005,"end":402.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.63471875000005,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.15346875,"end":408.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.13159375000004,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.59096875,"end":413.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.97471875,"end":416.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.02909375,"end":417.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.54784375,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.43346875000003,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.18409375000005,"end":427.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.28909375,"end":427.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.52534375000005,"end":427.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.72784375000003,"end":427.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.96409375,"end":479.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.44971875000005,"end":493.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":494.06346875,"end":495.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":496.00409375000004,"end":497.84346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.19784375,"end":502.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.16346875000005,"end":503.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.01971875000004,"end":508.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.20471875000004,"end":525.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3559687500001,"end":512.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.1428437500001,"end":533.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.7197187500001,"end":535.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.0147187499999,"end":538.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.8159687500001,"end":539.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.96346875,"end":550.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.23721875,"end":543.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.4734687499999,"end":543.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.96596875,"end":555.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.72471875,"end":557.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.3784687500001,"end":559.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.94346875,"end":580.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.4297187500001,"end":583.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.6828437500001,"end":580.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583.5178437500001,"end":584.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.0703437500001,"end":587.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.7322187500001,"end":592.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.59659375,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.6384687500001,"end":605.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.2278437500001,"end":603.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.80971875,"end":606.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.40034375,"end":607.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.8347187500001,"end":608.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":609.20159375,"end":614.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.1584687500001,"end":615.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.0022187500001,"end":618.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.73596875,"end":622.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.1909687500001,"end":624.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.67596875,"end":626.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.34659375,"end":630.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.27409375,"end":631.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.3034687500001,"end":633.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.2778437500001,"end":635.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.6784687500001,"end":639.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.72846875,"end":640.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.7578437500001,"end":645.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.17471875,"end":650.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.0009687500001,"end":654.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.32534375,"end":662.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.01596875,"end":664.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.45034375,"end":670.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.6772187500001,"end":673.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":674.3559687500001,"end":683.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":683.2490937500002,"end":720.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.1215937500001,"end":690.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.6628437500001,"end":709.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.9072187500001,"end":712.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":720.6609687499999,"end":725.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":725.4197187500001,"end":727.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":727.88346875,"end":730.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":731.25846875,"end":756.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.5834687500001,"end":760.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":760.7053437500001,"end":763.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":763.62471875,"end":766.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.13471875,"end":768.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.5690937500001,"end":769.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":770.2397187500001,"end":782.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":782.3559687500001,"end":784.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":784.27971875,"end":802.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":801.9140937500001,"end":802.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.97721875,"end":810.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.3472187500001,"end":844.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.3840937500001,"end":847.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":847.0378437500001,"end":847.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.56096875,"end":847.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":847.6115937500001,"end":848.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.3372187500001,"end":848.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.6072187500001,"end":849.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.4509687500001,"end":854.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":854.4965937500001,"end":855.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":855.28971875,"end":856.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":856.09971875,"end":858.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.63096875,"end":861.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":861.8203437500001,"end":863.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":863.4909687500001,"end":866.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":866.98409375,"end":868.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":869.2622187500001,"end":873.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":873.73409375,"end":886.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.0359687500002,"end":886.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.1540937500001,"end":886.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.37346875,"end":886.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.47471875,"end":889.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.7822187500001,"end":890.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.87909375,"end":901.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.39221875,"end":905.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.4934687500001,"end":901.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.5603437500001,"end":909.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.40784375,"end":913.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.35659375,"end":915.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.1440937500001,"end":923.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.3247187500001,"end":935.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.82971875,"end":939.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.3228437500002,"end":940.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.37,"end":29.124,"text":"麻煩再請陳院長備詢。謝謝您當年給我的證書。這是幫助很多年輕學子進入到這個生命科學領域一本很重要的著作。特別令人感動的就是在書本上有閱讀到了您的父親"},{"start":30.083,"end":50.9,"text":"在您晉升教授的時候提供給您的期許和祝福,見證您後來在學術上擔任的中央研究院的院士,在政治上也擔任的副總統,現在又擔任行政院長的工作。相信大部分的民眾會和我一樣"},{"start":52.073,"end":70.685,"text":"我衷心的感謝您對台灣人民的全心全力的付出。您的父親應該也會讚許您的成就。或許他也會捨不得您現在的辛苦。不過我相信這一切都是值得的。"},{"start":71.876,"end":85.753,"text":"我仍然是以做公僕的心態來服務大家希望能夠符合我爸爸的要求接下來還是要利用這次總質詢的機會來就教您三個認為是重要的問題"},{"start":87.503,"end":114.029,"text":"一個是癌症防治的篩檢問題一個是癌症信號基金已經有很多委員都提過另外就是我們可以研議是否能夠成立國家B肝防治辦公室這三個問題那癌症防治尤其在篩檢的部分是有它很重要的角色您是這方面的專家應該很清楚癌症已經是過去41年來對台灣民眾"},{"start":116.792,"end":116.812,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":146.769,"end":174.689,"text":"一、二的新進步能夠盡量的來減少還正對民眾的死亡的威脅。那我們也看得出來從過去20年前的5年的存活率46.1%到目前為止我們已經提升到61.5%也就是說過去25年來20年來其實已經有把這個存活率提升到了15.4個百分比可是"},{"start":175.779,"end":200.615,"text":"相較於韓國他的五年存活率是70%日本是65%所以我們其實還是有很大的要進步的空間那要進步的空間我想身為這個醫師專業的戴清德總統當選人他其實非常有感受所以他很希望打造健康台灣的過程要把這個"},{"start":201.718,"end":213.433,"text":"到2030年要把這個癌症死亡率死亡人數可以下降三分之一那這個就是我們未來必須要共同努力的方向那三分之一的概念就是"},{"start":215.046,"end":215.066,"text":"委員長"},{"start":245.407,"end":249.597,"text":"你覺得或者是你認同目前臺灣執行中的這個五大癌症的篩檢"},{"start":250.708,"end":274.72,"text":"他是有合乎我們目前預設的目標還有你滿意這些成果嗎?在目前為止我們大口如指這個四個癌症的篩檢是2024年我在當衛生署署長的時候大力在推動。推動的時候就如同你這裡寫的一樣實際上我們看到死亡率是有在明顯的下降。我們跟美國國家癌症研究中心有做過"},{"start":275.76,"end":275.78,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":300.137,"end":302.218,"text":"的確肺癌篩檢用使用這個低劑量的這個檢查"},{"start":325.819,"end":352.982,"text":"其實在一個週年就能夠拯救了500個家庭這是一個很好的數字我們也知道在這個過程裡面其實它可以發揮更多的效益出來因為這些透過篩檢檢查出來的病人基本上都是一個很早期的癌症經過適當的治療幾乎他都可以痊癒的不過我們還是會擔心我們看到的就是篩檢率"},{"start":354.246,"end":383.056,"text":"如果篩檢有這麼好的成果那為什麼我們的篩檢率能不能夠有辦法適度的再提升因為我們看到其實民眾參與這個篩檢的理論上我們希望更高當然相較於全球各國並不是比較差可是我們希望既然有這麼好的成果那有辦法再提升嗎因為我們看到了其實只有40%的民眾他符合條件可是呢他"},{"start":384.519,"end":409.852,"text":"來篩檢的這個機會就損失掉了,非常非常的可惜。那我們也特別關注到有一些民眾他是陽篩所謂陽篩就是初步檢查看起來是需要再持續做後續處理的那大腸癌的這個陽篩的我們看到的百分比相較於乳癌相較於子宮頸癌就真的差很多那這部分"},{"start":411.212,"end":416.58,"text":"您是專家那目前到底有什麼樣的因素會讓我們的民眾對於篩檢"},{"start":418.681,"end":419.822,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":445.644,"end":445.664,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":468.689,"end":470.109,"text":"對,這真的是非常可惜那這邊我們也了解到"},{"start":498.277,"end":525.638,"text":"其實影響國人篩檢意願的可能因素就包括我們所列出來的這幾項其中有一些是沒有時間有一些是不方便或者是說他很擔心不然事情要檢查要做什麼這個都是會讓民眾不願意參加篩檢的原因那很謝謝院長還有謝謝部長這邊也期待透過國民健康署去擬定各種更好的方法來讓民眾知道"},{"start":526.209,"end":526.229,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":552.022,"end":553.883,"text":"我印象中大概要30千塊錢目前"},{"start":581.789,"end":606.514,"text":"一般的費用是4000到5000塊,那這個對民眾來講它其實是一個負擔,因為它一方面增加不方便,一方面它可能請假,尤其是在公司請假,它要做先前的準備,又要自費的負擔,所以我們很容易理解為什麼這一部分它的這個揚罪率是不如預期,那請問部長或"},{"start":607.841,"end":609.282,"text":"目前大概是這樣子的以前的話這種篩檢陽性的話那要"},{"start":623.263,"end":645.336,"text":"找這個病人到醫院去,都是由篩檢者,也就是說像是衛生所、基層的醫師去把他轉介過來。但是這樣子是效果不會很好,所以我們目前的做法是我們希望由醫院先把這個篩檢陽性的名單給醫院,由醫院去把他找來。"},{"start":646.46,"end":673.366,"text":"那找來的好處就是他就可以安排時間是比較能夠符合病人的需要的那至於剛剛委員提到的無痛的麻醉的費用的話這我們可以再來討論一下看看是不是在這方面也有做補助那當然有一個部分的話是可能跟勞動部相關的也就請假了這個問題那這個看看能不能要一起來做配合"},{"start":674.434,"end":693.537,"text":"好,謝謝。其實我們也很建議如果能夠有研議出一些節稅的措施來減少他的這個不方便同時又能夠讓他納入為一個免稅額的話那也許也是另外一種可行的方案。其實我們很期待企業界如果他是"},{"start":694.07,"end":714.224,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":714.224,"end":714.244,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":731.332,"end":731.512,"text":"﹚王正旭"},{"start":760.842,"end":760.862,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":771.563,"end":793.945,"text":"現在我們知道每一年會有27億28億的癌症篩檢費用那我們看到的編列出來如果要到2030年期待能夠真的把這個癌症死亡率減低三分之一的話我們看到了這個編列的經費就要逐年增加甚至將近100億可是我們發現這個陰害的基金已經越來越不足"},{"start":794.725,"end":810.277,"text":"不知道院長在這方面在預算的編列有沒有什麼更充分的穩定的裁員。在這個部分我們也希望這個衛福部特別是國建署他能夠編列一個比較有"},{"start":812.414,"end":835.345,"text":"響聲的這個癌症防治計畫特別在篩檢的部分那當然他們本身也要做更好的規劃看怎麼樣來做那這個經費的話如果要達到我們要死亡率下降三分之一的話確實篩檢扮演一個很重要很重要的一個角色然後預防當然也是很重要那在這一個部分我想我們可以來責成"},{"start":836.425,"end":862.699,"text":"我們衛福部還有國建署這邊特別提出這一個好更精進的這個癌症防治計畫然後來編列相關的經費。好謝謝那再過來就有關的信用基金的部分那剛剛部長也說明了很清楚其實目前看起來這個暫時性的專管應該是透過這個公務預算的撥補指定用途"},{"start":863.513,"end":887.409,"text":"然後經由健保署來統一運作節省整個行政的經費跟俗稱的健保總額其實是沒有關聯的所以這部分的運用將來應該會受到行政跟立法的監督而不是跟健保委員會那邊是分開的我的認知知道是不是正確我們的規劃的確是這樣"},{"start":890.951,"end":915.116,"text":"行政院這邊如果預算撥補到健保基金裡面去的話這個仍然是屬於公務預算所以仍然要經過立法院這邊的審查所以並沒有說要去迴避這所謂的審查只不過因為這是公務預算的本質所以可能在健保會上面的話那就是沒有就是說不能去左右"},{"start":923.067,"end":923.167,"text":"第16屆秋委員會議"}]}},{"id":"150428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee4ea5e5970627fc3c8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6aebedc42957354b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"15:18:28 - 15:34:01","影片長度":"00:15:33","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":933,"end_time":"2024-03-26T15:34:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T15:18:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（15時18分）謝謝主席，我們請陳建仁陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：蘇委員午安。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長好。院長，今天是蔡英文總統任內，院長最後一次來院會進行總質詢，所以我想在今天開始詢答前，我要先跟院長說你辛苦了，這1年4個月真的是不容易。而且我想其實在座不只是陳院長，陳院長甚至是用不同身分，在這8年當中副總統、院長和整個行政團隊，包括在座許銘春部長、薛瑞元部長，甚至是李孟諺秘書長等，所有的人都一起經過了非常多的挑戰……"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["蘇委員巧慧：包括了百年大旱、百年大疫，這些都是前所未見，每一個人都兢兢業業，包括現在在座的議事人員，這是大家刻骨銘心的記憶，我很謝謝大家扛起了名為國家的這個重擔，所以真的利用這個短短的時間再跟大家致謝，辛苦大家了，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員的鼓勵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不過責任在繼續啊！所以就跟院長就教，尤其是我過去4年都是在衛環，我想用這個經驗跟院長討論，因為現在正是在編列明年概算的時候，所以很多的政策其實都是牽涉到錢的問題。我想一個立法委員在這裡，如果有想要推動的事情，不外乎兩種方法，第一個是跟行政院來討論，甚至拜託能不能增加公務預算；另外一個，其實就是看既有的預算當中，能不能調挪嘛！其實不太可能是一個委員去編列什麼特別預算條例這樣子的狀況，這是不可能發生的事情啊！所以，我們以衛福部為例，衛福部（今）113年的公務預算是3,384億，現在正在編列明年的，如果跟它非常相關的是健保經費的部分，113年是8,755億，所以這麼多的錢來講，我們有哪一些新的事情要推動，這是我今天最想就教的。","我個人關心新的事物有幾個，第一個，是剛剛很多委員也已經討論過的，關於癌症防治的部分，尤其是新藥的部分。新藥的部分，其實我從上上一屆就提出了癌症防治法，希望推動的是癌症新藥基金，我認為用基金才會是一個根本解決問題之道，就是另外有一筆財源來處理。但現在不管是行政院或部內，提出的是一個暫時性支付，老實說有這個暫時性支付也很好，因為這樣的狀況，像今年的新藥增加31件，擴增給付藥物是24件，直接比去年成長了82%，這個速度是增加得非常地快。"],["陳院長建仁：現在是60億啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是會有兩個問題，第一個，如果到時候這個新藥真的過了，這個過的新藥是回去繼續占健保的總額嗎？這是第一個。大家就會擔心總額是不是……因為這些藥通常都比較貴嘛，所以是不是有排擠的狀況？第二個，如果在這個過渡期當中，藥到底是有還是沒有，有間歇性的或者是回到總額預算之前空窗期的部分，這樣藥是要停嗎？這個部分，院長或部長怎麼回答？可以簡短回答。"],["陳院長建仁：我請部長回答，這個我們有考慮到了。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然如果在暫時性支付這段時間的話，主要是看它藥的療效是否如預期，如果符合預期的話，那就會變成一個常規性的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是占總額裡面嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就回到總額去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：會不會占？因為總額大家已經覺得少，不夠用了啊，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：總額不夠用，就是總額要成長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這個問題你也承認是會回到總額去……"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且總額就會占了嘛！老實講，以現在來講，我看現在新藥的部分，2022年的癌症藥物費用在健保已經占了13.1%了，每年平均的成長是10%，比我們平均總額的成長4%是高兩倍，所以現在的用藥就已經是比總額多兩倍了，如果新藥繼續進來不就吃掉更多？"],["薛部長瑞元：新藥不會有那麼快，要研發……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是我們就是希望它快啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個要看醫學的進步，還是會有一個速率啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，沒有關係，因為我們現在在討論的總目標還是錢夠不夠？如果不夠的話，這個錢要怎麼來？所以我個人認為，暫時性支付現在當然可以解決目前在過渡期，在我們研訂一個更好的制度之前，這是一個好的制度，而且已經開始看到成效。但要能夠根本解決問題，還是……我會繼續提出我的版本，並且支持癌症新藥基金這樣的一個制度。我希望行政院能夠考慮，在沒有成立基金之前，這個錢就像剛剛院長聽到的，這已經是第一個需要很多預算的部分了，這是癌症新藥。","第二個，也會用到很多錢的部分，我也跟薛部長在衛環委員會討論非常多次，我的觀念很簡單，在這幾年尤其COVID-19之下，我們很清楚地看到在保衛疆土的是三軍，但是在守衛國人健康的就是醫事人員啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：投資醫事人員就是投資國民健康嘛！所以要怎麼讓他們覺得他們的工作是有價值的、有代價的，而且是值得的，這真的是最重要的一件事情。所以大家在講的，其實到最後就是要講健保點值的部分，譬如我工作，你本來契約給我是工作一天給我一個饅頭，不能因為很多人來工作，最後我得到的只有二分之一個饅頭，這做不下去啦！這個工作做不下去。所以這個部分要怎麼來解決？我想今年其實行政院這邊也已經幫忙了嘛，第一是撥補公務預算100億進去；第二是把健保總額pool裡面有一些拿掉了，一個是C肝的防治，一個是愛滋的防治，這樣也大概有100億，所以就挪出了200億。部長，這些我都是說給院長聽的，恰恰好這200億就是我們看到最常被忽略的，在健保總額給付裡面的診療費、診察費這種勞務費用，因為藥物的部分你都不能砍，它定得很死啊！總額又要給藥的錢，又要給醫師這些勞務費用，那能夠做的是什麼？藥不能動，那就只好勞務變動，算一算有多少？一年大概就是189億、190億，大概就是200億，所以你今年做了200億的挪用來到這邊，讓大家的點值可以回到0.9以上，這沒有錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，剛剛講的C肝跟愛滋要移出去的部分還沒有開始。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還沒有開始，預計何時？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要跟行政院爭取預算編列，因為一定要有公務預算先去付這筆錢，那個才挪得出來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我答應你的有做到，我在總質詢的時候再次提出了……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們還在爭取……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是立法委員的職責，我認為這個政策、這個方向是對的，所有在為民眾把關的醫事人員，他的勞務費用其實是最不應該被減少的，如果我們現在因為健保總額制，在總額沒有辦法動的狀況下，要怎麼讓這個勞務費用是穩定的，坦白講，就只有公務預算撥補是最實際的，所以當時我們聽到了這樣的撥補，甚至是挪開健保給付等等，有200億，我們也覺得非常好、非常有道理、全力支持。所以今天在這裡特別提出，同時要問的是，第一，現在院長在這裡了，當時部長也說往這個方向爭取，院長，今天你在這裡，你可以有正面的答案了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們當然是支持這樣的方式，但是我們也會請主計總處來盤看看所有的經費會是多少，剛才談到的那些公共衛生或者是傳染病治療等等的經費用公務預算來做，然後讓健保挪出一部分的錢，使得醫護人員的薪資能夠有所調整，這部分我們會往這個方向來發展，謝謝委員很寶貴的建議。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長，你剛剛說：「我們會往這個方向來發展」，我其實希望可以有更肯定、更強烈的肯定答案。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！我們會這樣做。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我去年……你會這樣做喔，這句話要記起來、一定要記起來，上面的記者、媒體一定要記起來，院長表示會朝這個方向做。為什麼？因為我去年11月在質詢部長的時候，部長說他一直在打電話給主計長，電話打到主計長都不接他電話了。所以我今天特別在這裡跟你說明的是，我認為這是一個對的方向，而且應該要這樣做，甚至我還認為這種公務預算的撥補在法制還沒有改變之前，我也會提出全民健保法的修法，我認為醫事人員的勞務費用應該要能夠讓它穩定地達標，這是我認為應該要有的方向，所以我負責任的提出修法，這是我可以做的，但對於行政院，我甚至認為這個撥補應該常態化，這是我的主張，請院長參考，但至少你答應今年會這樣做了。"],["陳院長建仁：其實我剛才講的傳染病、公共衛生這些經費弄到公務預算，那就是常態化了，因為這一筆錢已經……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，那只有今年啊！你目前答應的是今年，是不是以後可以每一年都是？"],["陳院長建仁：每一年都是按照這樣來做的話，就是等於……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是常態化，就是固定的往這個方向走……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想今天如果院長是這樣肯定的正面答案，那我想醫界會非常非常地樂見，所有的醫事人員都認為自己這樣做值得了，國家有看到他們的辛苦。就像我剛剛開頭感謝各位政府部門、行政部門的同仁一樣，這是我們對他們的肯定啊！所以在這裡也謝謝院長，給的是肯定的答案。","另外請問第三題，其實兒童節快要到了，兒科醫師現在也是大聲在疾呼，當時部長上任的第一件事情就是要守護兒科醫師，讓兒科醫師的人力可以不流失，所以兒科醫師也在呼籲，0到6歲的兒童門診及住院的部分負擔費用可以免除，0到6歲兒童基層門診加護病房及急重症健保加成。坦白講，這些都是他們的主張，但是合不合理？我也認為合理啊！像這一些事務可以有穩定的財源，其實就是對兒科醫師最好的人才留置的部分，所以你剛才講一、二、三其實都已經是預算的部分。因為過去的4年，確確實實剛好是在疫情的期間，整個都在衛環，可以看得出來醫事人員對國家的重要性，我實在是認為，今年在編概算的時候，衛福部要多一點啦！真的要多一點啦！該給的就要給足啦！"],["陳院長建仁：兒科的照顧，這個很重要，而且衛福部本身就有一個優化兒童醫療照顧計畫，請部長簡單講一下，讓委員放心。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員剛剛所提，後面的部分已經在做了，健保加成今年已經加成上去了，最近才通過。至於門診住院部分負擔的免除，這整體還是要算一下。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：至於優化兒童醫療照護網絡，其實是把我們整個照顧的體系做了一個整理，包括核心醫院、重點醫院，還有專責醫師等等，這個委員可能也清楚。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我支持所有的計畫應該要攤開來看，甚至不只是衛福部自己所有的計畫，因為我們也不是只有講兒科，我們剛剛已經從癌症新藥一直到醫事人員，一直到兒科，這都還是我能夠列舉的三項而已，其實我們還有更多的項目。本來我們在做的工作就是國家資源怎麼配置，所以衛福部有衛福部的資源配置，甚至到行政院層次的時候，是國家整個資源要怎麼配置，所以當然應該要攤開來看他們的輕重緩急，只是我在這裡利用可以跟院長討論政策的時間，我要來大聲疾呼，今年啊！我實在是要強力支持衛福部的概算，應該要更為增加，讓醫事人員在辛苦了這段時間之後，可以覺得他得到國家的支持，這是我最大的出發點。至於怎麼配置合理、專業，當然交由部和行政院做最後的決定，但我在這裡表示我的意見，這是第一個關於預算配置的部分。","第二個，我也還想說，其實衛福部也擔了很多的責任，比如說我們最大的國安問題之一：少子化，少子化的問題不是只壓在衛福部一個部上面而已，而是各個部會都應該要有這個概念可以來配合，我看到日本在2023（去）年12月提出了少子化戰略，其實是每個部門都有動起來。","因為時間不多，我舉一個最簡單的例子好了。比如說，我們在今天之外，像社會住宅的抽籤以及入住率，還有它的入住時間，是不是有機會可以配合育兒，也就是有嬰幼兒、學齡前兒童，甚至是小學三年級之前的學童，他們有入學學籍的問題，我如果住到這裡剛好年限滿了，我是不是要跳走？這就是其中的手段之一，所以我認為各部會都應該共同來承擔這個國家策略，這才是合理、正確的，所以今天用預算跟責任這兩個部分來跟院長就教啦！"],["陳院長建仁：少子化的問題我們國發會會來做全盤、跨部會的整合，來做整個的調整。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員巧慧的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第15號王委員正旭質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.10221875,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.047218750000001,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.89596875,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.15659375,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.53659375,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.61909375,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.93971875,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.20346875,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.14409375000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.12159375000002,"end":206.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.81346875000003,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.42909375000002,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.44596875000002,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.46284375000002,"end":209.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.24284375000002,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.25971875000002,"end":215.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.32659375,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.33909375000002,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.77784375000002,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.89971875,"end":221.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.59534375,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.85221875000002,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.83909375000002,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.00409375,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.66909375,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.44096875,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.82034375,"end":268.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.38971875000004,"end":269.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.96346875,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.98034375000003,"end":271.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.97159375,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.81409375000004,"end":335.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.50596875,"end":365.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.94846875,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.31096875000003,"end":368.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.37409375000004,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.94284375,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.10909375,"end":393.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.96096875,"end":396.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.32346875,"end":402.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.65659375,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.46159375,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.01346875,"end":412.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.19846875,"end":422.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.96284375000005,"end":457.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.02909375,"end":444.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.04159375,"end":446.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.79534375000003,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.00596875,"end":457.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.95096875,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.64284375000005,"end":461.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.34284375000004,"end":464.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.59596875000005,"end":463.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.41409375,"end":470.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.75909375000003,"end":483.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.39409375,"end":511.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.40659375,"end":524.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.94909375,"end":555.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.2353437500001,"end":581.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.75284375,"end":567.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.16784375,"end":593.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.43596875,"end":611.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.1928437500001,"end":618.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.63471875,"end":622.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.97159375,"end":623.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.1572187500001,"end":629.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.3290937500001,"end":634.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.8603437500001,"end":633.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.10909375,"end":638.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.7122187500001,"end":636.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.68221875,"end":644.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.6440937500001,"end":640.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.24721875,"end":688.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.5547187500001,"end":646.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.61534375,"end":694.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.4878437500001,"end":699.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.3815937500001,"end":714.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.19346875,"end":725.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.46596875,"end":729.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.6553437500002,"end":732.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.3215937500001,"end":742.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.6284687500001,"end":739.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.51409375,"end":743.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.88096875,"end":748.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.3190937500001,"end":753.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.82096875,"end":750.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.58409375,"end":759.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.4734687499999,"end":761.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.5915937500001,"end":760.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.31284375,"end":765.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.7678437500001,"end":769.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.9865937500001,"end":776.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.1965937500001,"end":849.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.08659375,"end":805.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.07534375,"end":907.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.4565937500001,"end":925.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.9622187500001,"end":928.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.0165937500001,"end":931.34534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.827,"end":2.19,"text":"蘇委員午安。"},{"start":3.237,"end":32.179,"text":"院長好,今天是蔡英文總統任內院長最後一次來院會進行總質詢所以我想在今天開始詢答前我要先跟院長說辛苦了這一年四個月真的是不容易而且我想其實在座不只是陳院長陳院長甚至是用不同身份在這八年當中副總統、院長和整個行政團隊包括在座許明春部長、薛瑞元部長甚至是李孟彥秘書長等"},{"start":33.4,"end":33.6,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵"},{"start":58.61,"end":84.737,"text":"不過責任在繼續所以就跟院長就教尤其是我過去4年都是在未還我想用這個經驗跟院長討論因為現在正是在編列明年預算概算的時候所以很多的政策其實都是牽涉到錢的問題我想一個立法委員在這裡如果有想要推動的事情不外乎兩種方法第一個是跟行政院來討論甚至拜託能不能增加公務預算"},{"start":85.777,"end":109.095,"text":"那另外一個其實就是看既有的預算當中能不能調挪嘛這其實不太可能是一個委員去編列什麼特別預算條例這樣子的狀況這是不可能發生的事情啊所以我們以衛福部為例衛福部今年113年的預算我看公務預算是3384億現在正在編列明年的那如果跟他非常相關的是健保經費的這個部分那113年是8755億"},{"start":112.998,"end":140.505,"text":"所以將這麼多的錢來講那我們有哪一些新的事情要推動這是我今天最想救教的我個人關心的新的事物有幾個第一個是剛剛很多委員也已經討論過的關於癌症防治的部分尤其是新藥的部分那新藥的部分其實我從上一屆我就提出了這個癌症防治法希望推動的是癌症新藥基金我認為用基金才會是一個"},{"start":141.305,"end":141.485,"text":"現在是60億的"},{"start":167.185,"end":185.167,"text":"好,可是會有兩個問題,兩個問題的話,第一個就是說,那如果到時候這個新藥真的過了,那這個過的新藥是回去繼續佔健保的總額嗎?這是第一個,那大家就會擔心那總額是不是,因為這些藥都通常比較貴嘛,那所以這個是不是排擠了大家的狀況?"},{"start":186.008,"end":190.73,"text":"當然如果在暫時性支付這段時間的話,主要是看他的藥的療效是否如預期。"},{"start":215.879,"end":240.06,"text":"對,如果它是符合預期的話,那就會變成一個常規性的,那就回到總額去。因為總額大家已經在覺得少,不夠用了啊,對不對?總額不夠用就是總額要成長。所以這一個問題你也承認是會回到總額去,而且總額就會佔了嘛。那老實講啦,以現在來講的話,我看今年這個現在的這個新藥的部分啊,"},{"start":241.58,"end":259.367,"text":"2022年的癌症藥物費用在健保已經佔了13.1%了那每年平均的成長是10%比我們平均總額的成長4%是高兩倍所以現在的用藥就已經是比總額多兩倍了那如果新藥繼續進來那不就吃掉更多"},{"start":260.288,"end":264.974,"text":"新藥不會有那麼快,要研發出來的新藥,這個要看醫學的進步,還是會有一個速率。因為我們現在在討論的總目標還是說那錢夠不夠?"},{"start":277.409,"end":280.871,"text":"目前在過渡期我們在研定一個更好的制度之前這是一個好的制度而且已經開始看到成效但要能夠根本解決問題"},{"start":295.801,"end":314.527,"text":"還是我會繼續提出啦我會繼續提出我的版本並且支持癌症心藥基金這樣的一個制度我希望行政院能夠考慮在沒有成立基金之前這個錢就像剛剛院長聽到的這已經是第一個需要很多預算的部分了好癌症心藥"},{"start":315.407,"end":340.015,"text":"第二個也會用到很多錢的部分我也是跟薛部長在未完委員會討論非常多次我的觀念很簡單就是在這幾年尤其COVID-19之下我們很清楚的看到在保衛疆土的是三軍但是在守衛國人健康的就是醫事人員啊所以投資醫事人員就是投資國民健康嘛"},{"start":340.655,"end":354.649,"text":"所以要怎麼讓他們覺得我們的工作是有價值的有代價的而且是值得的這真的是最重要的一件事情所以大家在講的其實到最後就是要講健保點值的這個部分"},{"start":355.37,"end":355.51,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":374.912,"end":402.412,"text":"院長部內這邊也已經幫忙了嘛第一是撥補公務預算100億進去第二把健保總額裡面那個破裡面有一些拿掉了一個是C乾的房子一個是艾滋的房子這樣也大概100億所以就挪出了200億嘛恰恰好是我最想部長這些我都是說給院長聽的啦我都是說給院長聽的恰恰好這個200億就是我們在看最常被忽略的"},{"start":403.493,"end":429.182,"text":"在健保總額給付裡面的診療費、診察費這種勞務費用因為你藥物的部分你都不能砍,他訂得很死啊所以總額又要給藥的錢又要給醫師這些勞務費用那能夠做的是什麼藥不能動那就只好勞務變動算一算多少一年大概就是189億、190億大概就是200億所以你今年做了200億的"},{"start":430.382,"end":431.303,"text":"還沒開始,預計預計。"},{"start":447.615,"end":462.249,"text":"這要跟這個行政院這邊爭取這個預算編列,因為一定要公務預算先去付這筆錢,那個才挪得出來。那你看部長,我答應你的有做到,我在總質詢的時候再一次提出了,我認為這個政策這個方向是對的。"},{"start":471.157,"end":497.444,"text":"醫事人員所有的在為民眾把關的醫事人員他的勞務費用是其實是最不應該被減少的一部分嘛那如果我們現在因為健保總額制我的這個部分總額沒有辦法動的狀況下那我要怎麼來讓這個勞務的費用是穩定的那坦白講就是只有公務預算撥補的這個部分是最實際的部分啊"},{"start":497.964,"end":516.802,"text":"好,所以當時我們聽到了這樣子的一個撲普甚至是挪開健保的給付等等的這部分兩百億我們也覺得非常好,非常有道理,全力支持所以今天在這裡特別提出同時要問第一院長,所以你現在院長在這裡了"},{"start":518.023,"end":544.414,"text":"當時部長也說他往這個方向在爭取。院長那今天你在這裡你可以有正面的答案了嗎?我想我們當然是支持這樣的一個方式了但是我們也會請主計總署來盤盤看看所有的經費會多少那剛才談到的那一些公共衛生或者是傳染病治療等等的經費用公務預算來做然後呢讓健保有挪出一部分的錢來使得醫護人員的這個"},{"start":546.155,"end":548.177,"text":"院長我實在是希望你在這裡你剛剛說我們會往這個方向來發展我其實希望可以有更肯定更強烈的肯定答案"},{"start":564.975,"end":592.948,"text":"因為我去年,你會這樣做喔?這句話要記起來,一定要記起來喔!上面這個記者這部分一定要,媒體要記起來,院長表示會朝這個方向做。為什麼?因為我去年11月在質詢部長的時候,部長說他一直在打電話給主記長啊,打電話打到主記長都不接他電話了啊。所以我今天特別在這裡跟你說明的是,我認為這是一個對的方向,而且應該要這樣做。甚至我還認為啦,"},{"start":594.769,"end":615.039,"text":"這種公用預算的撥補在法制還沒有改變之前我也會提出全民健保法的修法認為在醫事人員的勞務費用這個部分應該要能夠讓他穩定的達標這是我認為應該要有的方向所以我負責任的提出修法這是我可以做的但行政院我甚至認為這個撥補應該常態化"},{"start":618.821,"end":628.874,"text":"這是我的主張請院長參考但至少你答應今年會這樣做其實我剛才講的傳染病、公共衛生這一些的經費如果"},{"start":630.35,"end":651.305,"text":"﹗"},{"start":651.585,"end":677.876,"text":"我這樣做,我記得,國家有看到我的心得。就像我剛剛開頭是感謝各位政府部門、行政部門同仁一樣。這是我們對他們的肯定啊。所以在這裡也謝謝院長是肯定的答案。那另外,我們第三題啊,其實兒童節快要到了。其實兒科醫師現在也是大聲在疾呼啊。當時部長上任的第一件事情就是要守護兒科醫師。讓兒科醫師的人力可以不流失嘛。"},{"start":678.416,"end":698.803,"text":"所以其實這邊在講的,兒科醫師也在呼籲啊,0到6歲的兒童門診及住院的部分負擔費用可以免除。0到6歲兒童基層門診、加護病房及急重症健保加成。坦白講這些都是他們的主張,但是合不合理,我也認為合理啊。"},{"start":699.503,"end":699.703,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":715.259,"end":738.698,"text":"因為過去的4年確確實實剛好在疫情的期間整個都在未完可以看得出來醫事人員對國家的重要我實在是認為今年概算在編的時候衛福部要多一點啦真的是要多一點啦該給的就要給足啦這個兒科的照顧這個是很重要而且衛福部本身就有一個優化兒童醫療照顧計畫啦你簡單講一下給委員放心一下"},{"start":743.956,"end":758.89,"text":"委員這剛剛提出來後面的這已經在做健保加成這今年已經有加成上去已經加加成上去最近來通過那至於說門診住院的部分負擔免除這個還是要算一下"},{"start":759.531,"end":759.711,"text":"﹚蘇巧慧﹚"},{"start":776.238,"end":797.422,"text":"我支持所有的計畫應該要攤開來看甚至不只是衛福部要把自己所有的計畫因為我們也不是只有講兒科啊我們剛剛已經從癌症心藥一直到醫事人員一直到兒科這還是我能夠列舉的三項而已其實我們有更多的項目本來我們在做的工作就是國家資源怎麼配置嘛"},{"start":797.802,"end":815.166,"text":"所以衛福部有衛福部的資源配置甚至是到行政院的層次的時候是國家整個資源怎麼配置的部分啊所以這當然應該攤開來看輕重緩急啊只是我在這裡利用可以跟院長討論政策的時間我要大聲疾呼"},{"start":815.666,"end":830.485,"text":"今年我實在是強力的支持衛福部的預算應該要衛福部的概算應該要能夠更為增加讓醫事人員在辛苦的這段時間之後可以覺得得到國家的支持這是我最大的出發點"},{"start":831.286,"end":854.597,"text":"至於怎麼配置合理專業當然交由部和行政院做最後的決定但我在這裡表示我的意見這是第一個關於預算配置的部分第二個我也其實還想說其實衛福部也擔了很多的責任比如說我們最大的國安問題之一少子化少子化的問題不是只壓在衛福部一個部上面而已"},{"start":855.057,"end":882.928,"text":"他其實是各個部會都應該要有這個概念可以來配合我看到日本阿2023年就是去年而已12月提出的這個少子化的戰略其實是每個部門都有盪起來那我因為時間不多我舉一個最簡單的例子就好了比如說我們在今天之外社會住宅社會住宅他的抽籤以及入住率還有他的入住時間是不是有機會"},{"start":884.349,"end":884.769,"text":"蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":922.263,"end":930.171,"text":"謝謝蘇委員巧慧的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第15號王委員正續質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee7ccdd9b1a33c1c8d8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6354b032749305e4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"15:02:21 - 15:18:00","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":939,"end_time":"2024-03-26T15:18:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T15:02:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（15時2分）謝謝院長。我們請陳院長還有薛部長。"],["主席：再請陳院長及衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：蘇委員午安。"],["蘇委員清泉：午安。辛苦了！你們兩個人站了一整天了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會，為大家服務。"],["蘇委員清泉：我要跟院長薛部長請教，因為你當過副總統、當過衛生署署長，所以醫療方面你非常內行，薛部長更不用講。很感謝不分朝野這幾天都看到他們非常關心醫界，他們都很擔心醫界死掉。","院長，你有看到韓國發生的事件嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有，因為他們要增加醫學生，但是醫學生抗議。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有研究，韓國這次的問題滿嚴重的，而且差不多80%跟臺灣雷同，但我覺得他們的總統很另類，他不去跟北韓對幹，只想跟自己的醫護人員對幹。院長，你會不會也這樣跟我們的醫護人員對幹？"],["陳院長建仁：我想不管是我也好，還是賴副總統也好，我們都是從醫界及衛生界出身的，我們知道他們對國家很有貢獻，我們謝謝所有醫護人員的貢獻，也希望能夠保障他們的權益，讓他們能夠為民眾提供更好的服務。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，住一晚的觀光飯店要四千多元，住病房的話，包括護理費等等一晚一千多元；再來，南部算命的人很多，北部也很多，算一次命要800元到4,000元，看一次病要兩百多元，我看一次都兩百多元，有的是三百多元，你的看法如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我的看法是這樣，因為觀光的話就是願者付費嘛，如果是醫療的話，我們有健保，健保也要維持財務支出平衡，我們就付給相關住院費用或診療費用，這些本來就是在健保的總額預算下，我們讓健保能夠永續。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。接著你看，這個是健保署公布出來的data，各位看到我們臺大醫院，早上也有很多委員談了，臺大醫院院長說它的結餘是1%，然後主要的收入是來自於美食街、停車場、捐贈，像林口長庚就是靠它的股票股利，它的本業還虧錢。所以這個是不應該，你這樣一直要求醫界要有韌性，請問沒錢要怎麼有韌性？這根本就醫不下去了。","我想陳院長也很內行，像成本控制等等，但是我們跟韓國一樣，醫學生不要選內外婦兒，會被告，韓國的醫療糾紛比我們還要強烈，大家都要去走美容、皮膚等等。我們這裡跟韓國幾乎一模一樣，他們的醫師數是八萬多，我們的醫師數是五萬多，它現在醫學院每一年招收差不多三千多位，我們差不多招一千五，它現在要加到一年要收五千多個，所以整個都崩盤了，醫師分配不均、偏鄉不足等等，臺灣再加上我們的健保是用總額預算，每一年要結清，所以院長，醫界的要求不多啦！1點1元，至少要0.95啦！不然的話，醫不下去了啦！","前幾天護理全聯會來找我，他說他們希望新進的護理師有70萬，然後資深的希望每個月的薪資能9萬到10萬，其他醫事相關放射、檢驗等等，那都要漲啊！醫生已經15年薪水沒調整，15年了喔！有一天我們薛部長跟我講，放射科很危險喔！現在那些晶片業者要放射師去做他們的screen，這樣下去會拉很多人去，他們的開價都是8萬、9萬、10萬，會跑光耶！院長，你有什麼想法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有，醫事人員非醫師的薪資部分，你說的這些包括護理師還有其他的部分，衛福部實際上有一個計畫要進行，我請部長簡單講一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：首先是護理師的部分，我們會推出一個護理繁重加給的計畫，這個計畫目前正在規劃，看今年有沒有機會去執行。至於其他醫事人員的部分，這個當然還要再做一些估算。"],["蘇委員清泉：早上廖委員提了發展特別條例，被你們打槍，我有看到，那個是比較難，但是我要跟你報告，我們的給付偏低，重症沒人要走，還有核刪還要放大，沒人這樣啦！薪水可以打折嗎？你在這邊宣示薪水可以打折，我馬上出去放鞭炮，院長，可以嗎？不行嘛！對不對？所以我希望我們來搞個不要用總額預算，總額改成目標制，然後我們來修健保法第六十二條之三，我已經提出去連署了，補到0.95，補到0.95，真的是不足。就像德國這樣，它是把明年的挪到今年來補，也是可以啊！不能讓醫療崩掉啊！院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員也很清楚啦！點數、點值、總額預算是多少，這不是只有從政府這邊來講而已……"],["蘇委員清泉：政府的支持是對的，你要占36%……"],["陳院長建仁：這是醫界還有病人的團體等等，大家要一起來討論，所以很多事情的討論不是只有站在醫事人員，包括病人的團體等等，還有……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在是一個good timing……"],["陳院長建仁：通通要一起來討論……"],["蘇委員清泉：非常好的關鍵時刻。"],["陳院長建仁：大家討論後會比較好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們準總統是腎臟科醫生，部長是婦產科，然後你是公衛，這個時間點是最好的，大家又那麼關心，然後醫療真的又很差，這個時候好好地把總額6%往上拉。再來，你說要把長照納進來，就把它納進來啊，長照保險法沒有辦法單獨立法，我們就把它納到健保法裡面，把這個百分比拉高，把政府投資的GDP拉高，一勞永逸，要不要？"],["陳院長建仁：這是委員的意見，還是所有醫界的意見？"],["蘇委員清泉：差不多大家都……"],["陳院長建仁：醫界的意見是不是所有人民的看法，還有所有醫院經營者的看法？這一定要大家一起來討論，當然委員有創意，提出一個修法的意見是很好。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個我跟部長說……"],["陳院長建仁：但是大家要來討論，我覺得這個要先討論清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，你們不要健保未倒，醫院就先倒了。今天很多委員都在替醫療院所發聲，你凍漲的有農、漁，有社福，你怎麼不把醫療放進去呢？我們已經漲32%了，今年又再漲11%、15%，不就要死了！對鄉下來說真的很嚴重耶！院長，你們只是一直在研究、一直在研究。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你一樣有看清楚，你這裡一樣有資料嘛，有提到醫學中心的部分是0.5%到1%；區域、地區醫院是2到3%；偏遠的小醫院是4%，現在是說它占4%，對於整體的營運成本會有多少影響。當然我也知道醫療機構是相當地辛苦，我也感謝他們照顧民眾的健康，但是這個補助的問題就要看政府的能力。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，前幾天衛福部把掛號費上限取消，好像很好一樣，部長，你很夭壽耶！怎麼可能掛號費沒有上限？結果引起百姓的不滿，我們在基層聽到，大家都罵得要死，結果你反而把醫界推到百姓的對立面，這很糟糕耶！沒有人這麼做的啦！部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，你的意思是說要限制它，不能提高嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：你可以報備，你可以訂百分之幾，你不可以說都不管、隨便它。"],["薛部長瑞元：以前就是報備，以前是只有報備而已，結果每一個衛生局都把它變成審查，但是他們於法無據啊，因為行政費用……"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在是讓醫療機構自己去決定。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳院長建仁：我向委員報告，掛號費目前的情況，這樣看起來，實際上……"],["蘇委員清泉：你不夠錢，所以就取消掛號費限制，但是這是很夭壽的措施。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在有漲的才57間。"],["陳院長建仁：全臺灣57間。"],["蘇委員清泉：誰敢漲價？我們屏東要怎麼漲？那都是鄉下，你敢漲，他就跟你拚了。"],["薛部長瑞元：你沒有限制，它也不會漲啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：回到初衷啦！健保法要弄好啦，你們現在是最好的時間，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：健保法要做好，要大家一起來努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：我再問一下，委員的意思是說不應該這樣做，所以掛號費一樣要限制，是不是這樣？"],["蘇委員清泉：一樣由縣市政府來規範，就是不一樣啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：本來應該是備查變成審查喔！"],["蘇委員清泉：對，審查沒關係啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不行啦！不能這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：於法無據啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，感謝。我們請環境部。"],["陳院長建仁：這是醫院管理……"],["蘇委員清泉：請環境部，有更嚴重的事情要跟你報告。"],["陳院長建仁：那是醫療機構的行政管理費，不應該跟健保一起講。環境部……"],["蘇委員清泉：我剩4分鐘而已，要講快一點。院長，你是高雄人喔！"],["陳院長建仁：對，我是高雄人。"],["蘇委員清泉：我是屏東人，你看我們現在的家園變成這樣，這是鹽埔啦，這是麟洛啦，你看看，都鋪水泥啦！做這種光電將來怎麼有辦法復耕啦！你看這個長青苔，這樣東一塊、西一塊，現在有在限制了，那個寸草不生啦，你看這整個都是，這個更誇張！環境部薛部長，你的看法如何？"],["薛部長富盛：跟蘇委員報告，我們現在的環評法裡面針對光電這一塊，事實上只有重要濕地的部分，但是我們已經聽到聲音，所以現在在進行整個修法的工作。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，旁邊蓋了太陽能板，蚊蟲都躲在那裡，都跑到果園，農藥越噴越重，世上有這種做法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟蘇委員報告，其實光電板相較於其他的再生能源，它對環境的衝擊是比較小，所以當初的環評認定才會只有重要濕地要經過環評，其他的就配合整個……"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，石化的percent一直一直增加，你這個又增加沒多少，這產的電量是一點點，所以一開始就錯了，就是非核家園亂搞嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：現在光電的占比是很高，不是不高喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我跟委員說，所有用來做光電發展的這個……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們來講漁電共生，這是人家在抗爭的啦！你看這片，這片就是要去墾丁、車城，你看，行政院說這是美麗的天際線啦！看了都快吐血了！漁電共生連一隻魚都沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，像漁電共生那個，它還是限制40%，不能超過它的面積的40%……"],["蘇委員清泉：這個是空照圖，你看看。"],["薛部長富盛：當然我們認為有必要跟民眾加強溝通，這個是有必要的。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，再來，你看這裡，這裡是老埤農場，種茶葉的，六、七百公頃要拿去做光電啦！它茶葉生產的品質很好耶！六、七百公頃耶！","而且我聽到很多施工的單位來跟我陳情，陳院長，你可能沒聽過，你的光電補助那些能源大廠的大老闆，躲在後面賺得飽飽飽；這些廠商，水電、營造、土木的沒錢拿，做好也沒錢，已經做好在發電、在賺錢了，也都還拿不到錢，多少的這些承包商還要面對百姓的陳抗跟糾紛，然後拿不到錢、倒閉，這是另類喔！你去補那些大老闆，這些大老闆沒有錢給這些施工的人啊！這些施工的工人是要吃飯、要養妻小耶！結果他就在那邊亂搞，院長，這點你要去清查，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來清查。"],["蘇委員清泉：下去清查，這個是非常非常惡劣、非常非常糟糕，我以為是少數，結果是大多數，所以這些光電業者真的沒血沒淚！這些大老闆，我在這裡也強烈地給他們譴責，希望部長跟院長去查看看。"],["陳院長建仁：我們來清查。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：有不法的話，我們來……"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來登記第13號李坤城委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員李坤城書面質詢：","議題一：解決出養制度漏洞、增加兒少照護預算","兒童凱凱遭虐致死案件，暴露台灣出養制度缺失，尤其是出養等待期的安置資源嚴重不足。以個案為例，兒童出生於脆弱家庭，透過新北市、台北市社會局轉介到兒童福利聯盟，兒福聯盟雖然找了合格的保母照顧小孩，還是出了問題。","根據衛福部盤點統計，目前全台3歲以下出養幼兒有177人，正由八個民間團體媒合出養家庭中，地方社會局不應在評估決定出養後就放手不管。在制度改善的空窗期，我們要求衛福部應積極和各縣市社福單位確認掌控這177位3歲以下孩童的安置照顧狀況，增加訪視頻率，確保兒虐或不當對待憾事再度發生。","政策建議：","1，脆弱家庭的孩子在出養階段的托育或安置費用，不應由媒合機構負擔，政府應該負責。","2，出養階段的托育保姆，應該受到更多的監督管理。","3，出養必要性評估，應修法改為地方政府辦理，避免媒合機構在出養評估時從寬認定；出養費用也需要有一致性的標準。","4，衛福部應該全面檢討安置資源，增加安置經費，並規劃相應的財源挹注，現行的兒少預算不到GDP的百分之三，資源不足造成兒少業務人力及相關制度難以完善，政府應逐年提高兒少預算，達到OECD國家的平均占GDP的6%。","5，照護安置經費應有適當調整機制，每年參照CPI年增率公告調整，讓更多照顧兒童的安置系統，不論是居家托育保母或是寄養家庭，願意加入孩童安置的行列。","議題二：家庭幫傭申請條件放寬","台灣於2004年開放家庭幫傭，當年的規定，雇主申請初次招募時的條件：","一、有年齡三歲以下之三胞胎以上之多胞子女。","二、累計點數滿十六點者。","2020年才修正為現行規定，雇主申請招募條件：","一、有三名以上之年齡六歲以下子女。","二、有四名以上之年齡十二歲以下子女，且其中二名為年齡六歲以下。","三、累計點數滿十六點者。","日前接獲一個陳情案例，該陳情人家中有長子6歲4個月大，雙胞胎弟弟妹妹目前6個月大，現任的家庭幫傭已僱用3個多月，因有餵錯藥及泡奶水量錯誤等重大錯誤，欲替換人選重新招聘，結果因長子已逾6歲，失去申請資格。","上述之標準過於嚴苛，除非是一次3胞胎，若是一次一胎，跨了6年，即使生了3胎，依舊達不到申請資格。少子女化乃之嚴重國安危機，當前台灣所面臨的情勢嚴峻，若是在申請家庭幫傭之資格過於嚴苛，無益幫助減緩少子女化之情形。依據內政部統計，以111年為例，生育三胎以上之戶數僅佔總數12%，符合條件比例不高，若加上經濟條件，能夠申請者就更少。","根據勞動部統計，截至113年1月底，我國家庭幫傭申請外籍移工數量為1927人，佔我國外籍移工整體比例，僅佔0.25%。因此，放寬申請條件，增加外勞聘用人數，影響幅度非常的小。","政府要鼓勵生育，家庭幫傭之申請資格就應該大幅放寬條件，對於願意生育孩子的夫婦，申請幫傭不要讓他們面臨上述如此困境。","政策建議：","一、家庭幫傭申請條件放寬為有二名以上之年齡六歲以下子女。","二、六歲以上至十二歲以下兒童，納入計點範圍。","三、重新招聘時，家庭幫傭應與家庭看護工條件一致。"],["主席：再接下來我們請登記第14號蘇委員巧慧質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.72221875,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.56159375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.66284375,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.03409375,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.28159375,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.17159375,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.28534375,"end":19.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.33596875,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.35284375,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.89284375,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.90971875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.344093750000003,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.81221875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.68534375,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.60909375,"end":27.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.07721875,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.148468750000003,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.595343750000005,"end":35.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.88596875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.42596875,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.83909375,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.079093750000006,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.90159375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.39096875,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.75784375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.26409375,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.90534375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.02346875,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.25534375,"end":57.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.87971875,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.726593750000006,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.822843750000004,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.21471875,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.48846875000001,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.68596875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.17096875,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.26784375000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.53034375,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.60596875,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.63971875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.09096875,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.94721875,"end":106.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.03534375000001,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.63784375,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.32534375,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.26596875000001,"end":117.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.71721875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.52284375,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.67034375,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.22284375000001,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.38284375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.30659375,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.82909375,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.36034375,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.12096875,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.01409375,"end":162.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.63846875000002,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.51159375,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.48971875,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.26096875000002,"end":176.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.01596875,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.56846875000002,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.83784375000002,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.18784375,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.25096875,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.06846875000002,"end":197.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.58221875,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.45534375000003,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.40846875000003,"end":204.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.90096875,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.13221875000002,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.47346875000002,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.62096875,"end":223.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.09721875000002,"end":227.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.89409375000002,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.39846875,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.75659375,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.97159375,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.87846875000002,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.40096875,"end":254.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.43409375000002,"end":255.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.24409375,"end":257.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.94846875,"end":258.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.50846875,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.63909375000003,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.63034375,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.85346875,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.07284375,"end":272.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.80659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.73846875000004,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.45096875,"end":282.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.62784375,"end":288.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.60596875000005,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.46221875000003,"end":295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.61346875000004,"end":295.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.86659375,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.95034375,"end":300.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.04284375000003,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.48971875,"end":312.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.65284375000005,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.98596875000004,"end":318.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.93471875,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.08221875000004,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.26346875,"end":322.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.52909375,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.39284375,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.58596875,"end":336.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.00784375,"end":352.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.24159375000005,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.27034375,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.86471875,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.69534375,"end":366.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.31534375,"end":368.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.86784375,"end":370.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.63971875000004,"end":376.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.17034375000003,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.19471875000005,"end":383.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.15659375,"end":384.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.13534375,"end":386.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.73409375,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.35409375,"end":390.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.92346875000004,"end":392.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.65721875,"end":395.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.22221875,"end":397.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.26409375000003,"end":399.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.86721875,"end":401.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.66846875000005,"end":409.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.67159375,"end":410.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.52784375000005,"end":412.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.94534375,"end":414.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.88596875,"end":415.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.35409375,"end":446.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.66471875,"end":430.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.23159375,"end":444.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.95721875000004,"end":448.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.45034375,"end":448.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.55159375000005,"end":450.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.60221875,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.37409375000004,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.96471875000003,"end":452.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.98971875,"end":453.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.68159375000005,"end":454.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.23409375000006,"end":456.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.44909375000003,"end":461.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.03471875,"end":474.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.39971875000003,"end":476.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.66534375000003,"end":477.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.47096875000005,"end":479.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.46659375,"end":479.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.77034375000005,"end":479.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.80409375000005,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.02346875,"end":481.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.96409375,"end":482.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.17909375000005,"end":505.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.25034375,"end":488.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.76284375000006,"end":501.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.30221875,"end":506.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.20471875000004,"end":508.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.22159375,"end":510.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.38159375000004,"end":516.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.33846875,"end":522.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.12221875,"end":524.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.51846875,"end":528.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.21846875,"end":530.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.94784375,"end":532.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.2178437499999,"end":532.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.79159375,"end":532.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.80846875,"end":563.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.5847187500001,"end":535.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.49596875,"end":562.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.21721875,"end":566.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.14909375,"end":567.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.26284375,"end":570.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.2878437500001,"end":571.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.48159375,"end":584.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.2097187500001,"end":586.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.5047187499999,"end":587.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.50034375,"end":594.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.26721875,"end":598.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.52846875,"end":604.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.6240937499999,"end":607.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.6953437500001,"end":608.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.8472187500001,"end":613.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.88096875,"end":610.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.2434687500001,"end":612.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.54284375,"end":612.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.38659375,"end":615.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.1922187499999,"end":624.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.87909375,"end":620.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.8959687500001,"end":628.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.5747187500001,"end":626.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.1015937500001,"end":643.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.0803437500001,"end":629.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.08846875,"end":631.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.37096875,"end":636.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.87659375,"end":637.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.66909375,"end":641.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.78721875,"end":650.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.64659375,"end":650.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.7478437500001,"end":650.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.8828437500001,"end":653.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.90346875,"end":653.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.92034375,"end":655.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.9540937500001,"end":658.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.0634687500001,"end":656.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.81409375,"end":660.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4722187500001,"end":660.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.9909687500001,"end":661.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.0078437500001,"end":662.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.04159375,"end":661.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":661.76721875,"end":661.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":662.1384687500001,"end":664.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.2734687500001,"end":662.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.37471875,"end":662.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.8640937499999,"end":668.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":664.5178437500001,"end":665.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":668.21346875,"end":668.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.51284375,"end":674.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":674.86221875,"end":675.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.97596875,"end":676.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.3472187500001,"end":676.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.6128437500001,"end":679.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.3003437500001,"end":679.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.84409375,"end":687.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.08846875,"end":685.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.29096875,"end":685.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":685.3415937500001,"end":686.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.48034375,"end":691.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.68221875,"end":693.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.0322187500001,"end":695.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.1922187499999,"end":700.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.88346875,"end":706.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.2453437500001,"end":710.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.25721875,"end":714.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.3247187500001,"end":712.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.56096875,"end":712.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.48471875,"end":715.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.1553437500002,"end":717.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.44596875,"end":720.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.09971875,"end":722.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.09096875,"end":723.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.37346875,"end":729.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.84096875,"end":731.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.68034375,"end":736.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.42221875,"end":737.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.45596875,"end":741.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":741.4172187500001,"end":742.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.20596875,"end":744.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.72034375,"end":747.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.43721875,"end":750.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.4622187500001,"end":752.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.01034375,"end":754.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.3772187500001,"end":756.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.0434687500001,"end":759.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.33846875,"end":765.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.57846875,"end":763.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.5190937500001,"end":768.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.34534375,"end":771.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.77534375,"end":773.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.6484687500001,"end":773.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.1884687500001,"end":775.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.70721875,"end":776.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.93909375,"end":778.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":777.12471875,"end":777.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.49159375,"end":784.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.9084687500001,"end":784.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":785.08971875,"end":785.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.4440937500001,"end":785.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":785.51159375,"end":789.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.56221875,"end":786.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.34221875,"end":790.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":794.1515937500001,"end":795.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":796.36221875,"end":796.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.76284375,"end":799.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.70346875,"end":802.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":803.1628437500001,"end":807.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.47846875,"end":809.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.93784375,"end":813.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.83221875,"end":813.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.54096875,"end":813.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":813.65909375,"end":813.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.6928437500001,"end":813.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.92909375,"end":821.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.4890937500002,"end":823.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":821.6240937500002,"end":824.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.1259687500001,"end":828.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.6103437500001,"end":828.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.6272187500001,"end":828.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.6609687500002,"end":828.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.71159375,"end":829.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.42034375,"end":829.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.80846875,"end":829.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.8503437500001,"end":835.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.9509687500001,"end":838.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.51596875,"end":841.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":842.73471875,"end":847.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.6240937500002,"end":849.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.9865937500001,"end":851.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.64034375,"end":853.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.17596875,"end":855.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":856.28534375,"end":856.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":857.97284375,"end":859.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.2678437500001,"end":863.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":863.99721875,"end":864.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":865.14471875,"end":866.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":866.5790937500001,"end":867.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":868.08096875,"end":868.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":869.34659375,"end":871.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.9284687500001,"end":872.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":873.1940937500001,"end":884.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.4497187500001,"end":885.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.5634687500001,"end":886.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.64346875,"end":887.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.35221875,"end":887.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.6853437500001,"end":889.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":890.42346875,"end":892.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.08971875,"end":893.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.11909375,"end":900.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.3459687500001,"end":901.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.96596875,"end":906.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":904.64909375,"end":905.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":906.1003437500001,"end":906.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.0959687500001,"end":910.5047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":907.43346875,"end":908.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":910.84221875,"end":914.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":914.87534375,"end":921.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.76034375,"end":922.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":923.1272187500001,"end":924.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":924.19034375,"end":924.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":924.32534375,"end":924.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.34221875,"end":925.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.18596875,"end":925.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.2197187500001,"end":925.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.43909375,"end":925.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.6584687500001,"end":926.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":926.1984687500001,"end":926.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":926.3503437500001,"end":926.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":926.97471875,"end":927.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.16034375,"end":927.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.55659375,"end":939.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.858,"end":10.16,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長。我們請陳院長。再請陳院長、薛部長備詢。再請衛福部備詢。主委,午安。辛苦了,兩個跳過槓。為大家報復。我要跟我們院長還有薛部長,因為你做過副總統,"},{"start":29.333,"end":48.14,"text":"這位衛生署署長,所以醫療你非常的內行,那薛副長更不用講。那挺感謝這不管朝野這幾天都看到他們非常關心醫界齁,你跟他講醫界競爭啦。好,好,院長,你看到這韓國,這是韓國齁?有,這因為他們對這個醫學生有一些要檢查嘛齁,但是醫學生有控醫。"},{"start":58.105,"end":72.462,"text":"我研究一下,韓國這次的問題蠻嚴重,而且他有80%跟台灣雷同,但是他們的總統我覺得很另類,他不去跟北韓對戰,只能跟自己的醫護人員對戰。"},{"start":74.761,"end":74.781,"text":"院長"},{"start":102.245,"end":111.81,"text":"一間廣東飯店、一間市場幾戶、一間便衣、包括副流的都加起來、一間清湯庫。你選名,那些人沒多少,大伯也有很多人。選一間名,二百到四千。換一個便,兩百幾戶,我看都兩百幾戶,有的三百幾戶。"},{"start":130.888,"end":131.13,"text":"你會看嗎?"},{"start":133.41,"end":159.667,"text":"我的看法是這樣,因為如果說觀光那就是醫院者去付費嘛,如果說醫療當然我們有健保,健保也要看到健保的財務的支出要平衡,那我們也就付給相關的住院的費用或者診療的費用啦。那這些本來就是在我們的健保的總額預算下,我們讓健保能夠永續。"},{"start":162.759,"end":190.075,"text":"那接著你看這個是健保署公布出來的data各位看到我們臺大醫院早上很多委員談了臺大醫院院長說一月絕餘1%然後他主要的收入是來自於美食街停車場捐贈像林口長庚他就是靠他的股票股利他的本業還虧錢"},{"start":192.113,"end":217.763,"text":"所以這個是不應該,你這樣一直要要求醫界要有韌性,請問某幾名要有韌性,這就緊張他不會了。下一張。我想陳院長你也很內行,那成本控制啦等等等等,但是我們跟韓國一樣,醫學生不要選內外婦兒。"},{"start":221.097,"end":235.801,"text":"韓國的醫療就比我們還強烈。大家都要去找美容、皮膚等等。我們這裡跟韓國幾乎一模一樣。他們的醫師數8萬多,我們的醫師數5萬多。現在醫學每年遭受差不多3000多位,我們說1500。現在要加到一年要收5000多個,所以整個都變胖。"},{"start":247.106,"end":267.895,"text":"議事分配不精、偏鄉不足等等。我們台灣在家鄉的健保是用總額預算,每年要結清。議長,他自己的要求不足,一點一口,最少要0.95,不然他不會落下。"},{"start":274.861,"end":299.02,"text":"前幾天那個副理前任會來找我他說他們希望新進的副律師70萬70萬然後資深的希望每個月的薪資能9萬到10萬那其他醫事相關放射檢驗等等那都要去啊醫生已經15年沒去沒薪水沒條件15年"},{"start":302.256,"end":305.919,"text":"這部分醫事人員的薪資,揮醫師的部分,包括護理師還有其他的部分,"},{"start":330.509,"end":330.689,"text":"﹚蘇清泉"},{"start":337.496,"end":364.77,"text":"首先是護理師的部分的話,那我們會推出一個護理繁重加急的這個計畫。那這個計畫目前正在規劃,那看今年有沒有機會去執行。然後其他醫事人員的部分,那這個當然還要再做一些估算。晚上我們那個廖委員他提了一個發展特別條例,我給你拍一張我看。"},{"start":367.332,"end":395.192,"text":"那個是比較難但是呢我要跟你報告我們這幾戶偏低重鎮沒人要走還河山還要放大沒人這樣啦薪水可以打折嗎?你在這邊宣示薪水可以打折嗎?馬上出去放鞭炮行嘛 對不對所以我希望我們要來搞個總額不要用總額預算總額改成目標制"},{"start":396.22,"end":413.136,"text":"然後我們來修建保法,又12條之三,那我已經提出一連署了,不到0.95,也不到0.95,然後真的不足,就像德國這樣,他是把明年的摸到今年來補,不可以啊,不能讓醫療崩潰啊,你知道嗎?"},{"start":416.38,"end":420.324,"text":"我相信委員你很清楚,這個點數、點值、總額預算是多少,這不只是為政府這邊來說而已,這是議界還有消費者,"},{"start":432.897,"end":435.619,"text":"我們這個總統是醫生腎臟科護腸科的部長然後你是公衛這個時候是最好然後大家要那麼關心然後醫療真的要很差"},{"start":462.457,"end":475.975,"text":"這個時候好好地把總額6%往上拉,再來你說把長照要納進來,就把它納進來啊。長照保險法沒有辦法單獨立法,我們就把它納到健保法裡面,"},{"start":478.496,"end":478.536,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":508.22,"end":525.588,"text":"希望變報告到明天就先到,今天很多,我們很多委員都在退醫療院所發生,你動載的有榮譽、有社福,你不太要把醫療放進去,我已經去32%了,今年又去11%、15%,我都站起來了,那個政客所在的真的很嚴重。"},{"start":532.237,"end":537.582,"text":"委員長,你有沒有看過醫學中心的保溫是0.5%至1%,區域、地區醫院是2%至3%,偏遠的小醫院是4%,你也說這4%對整個全體營運成本會有多少的影響。當然我也知道這個醫療機構是最大的辛苦,我也感謝他們照顧著民眾的健康,但是"},{"start":560.182,"end":585.5,"text":"這個補助的問題就要看過政府的電力啦。再來,前幾天我們衛福部把這個國安會上線給取消。吼,非常不好的吼。部長,你很要事耶。比較有可能的,因為國安會沒有上線,結果引起百姓,我們在基層聽到,大家都買到要死。啊昨天的你把醫界推到百姓的對立面,這很糟糕耶,沒有人這樣做的啦。部長。"},{"start":587.721,"end":595.286,"text":"委員你的意思是說不可以限制,不可以管你以前就是報備,以前只是報備而已,結果每一個衛生局都幫你做審查,但是我們違法無據啊"},{"start":608.715,"end":611.177,"text":"因為現在醫療機構他們自己去判斷了,我感覺我向委員報告,這樣我後悔的目前的情形,這樣看起來,事實上...現在也有企業,這裡57間,工廠要怎麼企?"},{"start":632.154,"end":638.296,"text":"所以我再問一下,委員的意思是說不應該這樣做,所以那個國會同樣要行政是不是這樣?同樣由縣市政府來規範。應該被查變成審查喔?"},{"start":659.309,"end":666.697,"text":"對阿,審查阿,比康嘛。那是醫院管理費。那是醫院管理費。環境部,環境部。這更加嚴重的事。那是醫療機構的行政管理費,不應該蓋健保座。環境部。四分鐘而已,說得快。"},{"start":682.901,"end":709.106,"text":"院長,你高雄人,你看我們現在的工廠這樣,這是鹽煲啦,下一張,這是零鹿啦,你看看,都空岸門頭啦,這個這種光電怎麼有辦法將來要復耕啦,在下面,你知道這個長青苔,這樣東一塊西一塊,現在有在限制了,那個寸草不生啦,你看這整個都"},{"start":712.304,"end":735.721,"text":"吼,這個更誇張吼。好,再下一張。那個環境部學部長,你的看法如何?給蘇委員報告,事實上我們現在的環評法裡面,針對光電這一塊事實上只有重要失地,但是我們已經聽到聲音,所以現在在進行整個修法的"},{"start":736.391,"end":739.234,"text":"議員長,旁邊去看太陽能板的房間都閉在那,我找出來過幾天,榮耀越出越大,世間有這種做法嗎?"},{"start":748.556,"end":764.343,"text":"其實跟蘇委員報告,光電板相較於其他的再生能源,它對環境的衝擊是比較小。所以當初的環評認定才會只有重要失地要經過環評,其他的就配合...實話...實話..."},{"start":769.38,"end":770,"text":"這是人在抗爭的"},{"start":797.779,"end":802.185,"text":"這皮你看到沒有,這皮就是要去昆汀車廂,你看,行政院說這是美麗的天際線,這美麗的天際線,看有沒有透過啊。"},{"start":812.297,"end":815.239,"text":"這裡啦,這裡是老闢農場,建第一的,六七百公頃的火爐做公安店。"},{"start":842.779,"end":870.987,"text":"你茶葉生產的品質很好,六、七百公頃。下一張。而且我聽到很多施工的單位來跟我澄清。沈院長你可能沒聽過。你的光電補佐的那些能源大廠,那些大老闆,立在後面,賺到八八百,這些廠商,水電的啦、營造的啦、土木的。"},{"start":871.96,"end":900.569,"text":"沒錢可以做好也沒錢做好在發展啊,已經在賺錢了,也又放沒錢外面這些承包商還要面對百姓的成抗跟糾紛,然後拿不到錢,然後倒閉。這是另類喔,你去補那些大老闆,這些大老闆沒有錢給這些施工,這施工的人,工人是要吃飯的,吃不走,他就把自己亂扶。"},{"start":902.665,"end":904.386,"text":"希望部長跟院長來查看看"},{"start":930.466,"end":939.299,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李坤成委員之質詢以"}]}},{"id":"150426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee05cbd7363d4389e78ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6fe9efda6cd71b21c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"14:46:27 - 15:02:10","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-03-26T15:02:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T14:46:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":40,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["游委員顥：請衛福部長。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：游委員，午安。"],["游委員顥：午安，謝謝院長。本席上週五質詢的時候有提到行政院的穩定物價小組，接著那天晚上就有看到新聞稿，指出包括密切觀察清明節農產及民生物資的價量情勢等等，雖然看到當天晚上新聞稿就上了，但是本席還是要反映，記得那時候是一段時間都沒有放，因為不一定每個月開會，放了之後到最後是只有兩頁的會議紀錄，所以也難怪大家對於目前行政院穩定物價小組在穩定物價的功能跟速度上，民眾當然會感到擔憂，所以在這裡還是要特別再勉勵也激勵一下，這個穩定物價小組有沒有做事啊？就像牙齒掉了就沒了，再裝的話也是假的，但是還是希望能積極來面對這穩定的物價。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想穩定物價小組開會以後的會議紀錄通常都是比較摘要性的紀錄，但是我會請物價小組，就如同委員所鼓勵的，我們繼續努力，把物價穩定當作是一個很重要的工作，而且在未來的紀錄上……"],["游委員顥：對，就上緊螺絲。"],["陳院長建仁：能夠稍微更詳細一點。"],["游委員顥：結論摘要可以理解，但是要即時，因為民眾其實還是非常重視今年會不會是漲字當頭，漲字是關鍵字，好，謝謝院長。接著再回到漲價這一題，台電確定要漲價11%，不用說小戶用電會不會影響，不管是一個麵包的產生，從運送到製造、配送、販賣，通通都跟電有關係，百分之百都會受到影響。先前講到漲健保的這一塊，不知道會不會調漲，請教院長跟部長，在醫院跟診所，24小時的有，12小時的診所也有，但是因為像這些醫院跟診所，他們的環境有許多重要的藥物、藥品，包括疫苗，他們其實都需要冷藏設備，需要維持疫苗的活性，所以用電的漲價一定會受到牽連。想先請教一下部長，針對診所、小型醫院會不會採取電費的補助？怎麼補助才能夠讓我們的民眾不會因為漲健保費受到影響？"],["薛部長瑞元：從我們初步的估計，大型的醫院，這次電價的調漲對於他們成本的影響大概是在0.5%到1%，但小醫院就比較高，大概會影響2%到3%，診所來講的話，目前看起來影響並不大，因為它大部分都是屬於住家型的用電，事實上，它用電的強度也沒那麼高。"],["游委員顥：直接請教部長，因為南投縣算是偏鄉，其實這個數據資料我也有，醫學中心是0.5%到1%，地區醫院是2%到4%，各部立醫院不同，臺北、桃園跟偏鄉的比例也都不同，直接就教部長目前針對小型醫院跟診所的部分，因為用電部分漲價了，補助的部分及照顧的部分要如何進行，以及健保費會不會調漲？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分行政院要做一個通盤的檢討。"],["游委員顥：我就直接請教院長，可不可以做一個宣示性的部分，針對醫院跟診所進行補貼？"],["陳院長建仁：基本上是這樣子，我們調漲電價，很多人就說電價調漲是因為大家都用電，所以所有的都調漲，這樣的講法並不合理，最主要的原因是要看占比，剛才講到醫院、診所的占比實際上不高，如果在營運成本占比不高的時候，當然我們就希望這些醫院、診所可以自行吸收。"],["游委員顥：所以是不會補助，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，基本上我們的看法是因為在整個營運成本的占比低，所以我們沒有到需要補助的這個階段，他們可以自行吸收。"],["游委員顥：坦白講，這個牽一髮動全身，其實任何的電費調漲……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下，明天副院長還是會請相關單位再來做一次討論，但基本上我們要看它的占比是多少。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，本席在這裡還是要提出，因為我要為地方的診所，包括我們的醫院來發聲，漲電價是牽一髮動全身，勢必一定會增加他們的成本，如果是在可以的預算之下，希望行政院能體恤這些地方上的醫療機構，不是醫療機構就一定比較富有，他們所做的是在照顧我們的地方鄉親，如果這個比例是在可以的情況之下，在檢討時還是可以針對他們的部分進行一些通盤的考量。"],["陳院長建仁：會考量，但我還是再強調，要看占營運成本的百分比來做決定，這個本來就應該要這樣看。"],["游委員顥：這個我可以理解，因為有人事成本，也有各式各樣的成本，這統統都可以理解。"],["陳院長建仁：對，你講這個……"],["游委員顥：以今天漲的部分來講，等一下也會講到其他的人事成本問題，但是電價的部分漲了，就是增加他們的支出，如果說……"],["陳院長建仁：支出增加多少？占比很低的話……"],["游委員顥：那你們去計算。"],["陳院長建仁：比如說1%，那你占多少？"],["游委員顥：沒關係，我希望能通盤檢討，因為這個聲音還是要被聽到、還是要被重視，這樣合理吧？另外在補貼電價的部分，不僅醫院可能因為這樣而受到影響，本席也不希望這樣的成本轉嫁到病患的身上。"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過，因為漲幅很小，所以它應該可以自行吸收。"],["游委員顥：除了醫療機構之外，我們希望窮人不要走向沒有生病的權利，有時候壓垮窮人的並不是病痛，而是後面所負擔的經濟壓力，所以除了醫療院所、醫院診所之外，本席還要幫另外一個團體請命，目前來講，許多社福團體、育幼院、老人照護機構在所謂的高通膨、高電價、高消費的情況之下，大家對於社福團體的捐贈意願比起疫情以前是比較低的，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，社福團體已經排除漲價。"],["游委員顥：排除漲價？"],["陳院長建仁：對，早在經濟部的宣布當中就有了。"],["游委員顥：沒有問題，排除漲價的話，至少有針對社福團體的部分進行照顧，讓他們善的循環可以持續延伸。"],["陳院長建仁：本來就有做。"],["游委員顥：甚至還希望衛福部，包括行政院，可以針對疫情之後受影響的社福團體多多給予各種補貼，讓他們更順暢地營運，因為在社福團體的部分，漲價後同樣會影響到許多捐款給社福團體的一些人，所以我覺得社福團體要照顧，不管是物價上漲的情況、疫情之後的情況，他們才能去幫助更多人，電價的部分是排除了，這是我其中的一小題，但是本席另外也希望衛福部，包括行政院，可以特別針對社福團體的照顧能有一些方案，這樣同意吧？"],["陳院長建仁：同意，那要看您的方案是什麼，實際上在社福團體或者長照這邊的話，政府一向是不遺餘力，譬如說馬前總統的時候長照只有不到45億嘛！但是我們現在已經編列了八百多億，還有社福的預算我們也按照CPI的增加，而增加了7%。"],["游委員顥：我要跟院長講，你剛才所說的這些內容，馬英九總統時期那是起步嘛！那時候的長照法規，當時我在當國會助理的時候，我也有幫蔡錦隆委員跟吳育仁委員起草過，那時候的朝野是國民黨執政，也受到那時候民進黨委員諸多的反彈跟反對，所以這過程我知道，因此馬英九執政時期通過了之後，有個開頭，後面才能夠持續再有長照2.0之後的成長，我覺得我在這裡還是要肯定一下馬英九總統。","接著問一下我們地方的議題，醫學中心或重度級急救責任醫院的服務獎勵計畫到112年12月31日為止，那時候有停止，現在再開啟下一個階段的計畫，我想請問一下部長，針對南投部立醫院──現在的南投醫院要做提升，部長您的看法及您的支持程度如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：部立南投醫院事實上是部立醫院，好像自己的小孩一樣，所以我們是一直要讓它能夠成長，目前是往重度級急救責任醫院的方向去走，但是這恐怕也沒有辦法一蹴可幾，所以有一些必要性比較強的部分，比方說在……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，我直接問部長重點好了，希望您能夠全力的支持部立醫院，因為那攸關於我們南投縣許多縣民……"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["游委員顥：14位專科醫生是它們目前所欠缺的，這個對於衛福部來講應該是可以協助的，可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我們會儘量協助，看它的需求性愈高的我們就會趕快補齊。"],["游委員顥：有你的這句話，我相信在未來南投部立醫院的升級，對於部內人員來講，提升很大的信心，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["游委員顥：接著請勞動部長。部長，剛才跟你一起走進來，我那時候就很想先問你，移工的部分有關於逃逸外勞八萬三千多人目前所進行的改善措施，請簡短回答一下。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們大概針對一些缺工的產業，比如說像農業、民間營造業，尤其民間營造業，我們開放；農業的部分也增加名額，另外……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，部長，你解釋的太久，我直接跟你說，去年2月到6月推出的自行到案專案提出了3個內容，包括免收容、最低罰鍰2,000元、不管制禁止入國期間等措施，到最後自行出面來報到的移工到底有多少？"],["許部長銘春：2.7萬。"],["游委員顥：2.7萬！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["游委員顥：那剩下的將近六、七萬人現在如何處理？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分當然移民署會持續會同國安團隊跟勞動部一起持續來查緝。那另外，我們……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，大致上我補充一下，因為我還是會比較鼓勵對於這種逃逸外勞的部分，我們還是要去關注資訊的傳遞，當然像現有的成績之外，還有許多在列、在案的，還有包括黑數，這個問題是在於政策措施的傳遞其實他們並不看得到，因為黑工不會看新聞，也不會等著勞動部的措施，所以我還是要勉勵勞動部對於移工的問題，大家所擔心的，不能飛就用跑的，不能跑就用走的，不能走也要用爬的，不管如何還是要持續針對這個議題來積極改善。"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["游委員顥：我接著就教大家關心的就是最低工資審議委員會在Q3的時候會進行討論，在這次的大選3個總統候選人通通都有提出希望調漲的目標，目前來講，我國最低工資在2萬7,470元，時薪是183元。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["游委員顥：我想直接就教今年的CPI超過2%，央行最新預測也在2.16%，今年有沒有機會在調漲的時候以3萬元為目標？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為我們基本工資的調幅……"],["游委員顥：這是賴準總統提的，賴準總統也有提這個3萬元的目標。"],["許部長銘春：對，這是我們的目標。"],["游委員顥：侯友宜也有提3萬3,000元。"],["許部長銘春：對，3萬是我們的目標，我們一定會持續往這個目標前進。但是我要跟委員說，最低工資的審議委員……"],["陳院長建仁：審議委員會。"],["許部長銘春：審議委員會去開會決定，包括相關的CPI等等……"],["游委員顥：這些我都清楚，沒關係，部長，勞動體系我很清楚。我直接請教院長，以這個3萬元為目標，時薪以200元為目標，在今年往這個方向努力，可不可以？"],["陳院長建仁：我們當然希望能夠在最低工資的部分努力、全力以赴，但是我仍然支持部長的想法，這要由最低工資審議委員會做最後的決定，因為這樣才能夠更周延，不是只有政府，有政府、勞方還有資方要一起來討論，包括學者專家，這樣才是一個完整的討論結果。"],["游委員顥：這些我都清楚，組成我都清楚。但我最主要是想說院長跟部長還是有一個目標在，大家在討論、在研究時比較可以往這個方向聚焦，如果CPI漲到2.03%……"],["陳院長建仁：當然希望能夠越來越好。"],["游委員顥：對啦，越來越好，所以183再加2%，以200元為目標有沒有機會？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個沒辦法說我這邊來做決定……"],["游委員顥：以你個人來講啦。"],["許部長銘春：我們有四方代表，勞、資、政、學，大家一起……"],["游委員顥：我還是要跟部長講一下……"],["許部長銘春：參考相關指標，最後來做決定。"],["游委員顥：本席還是要再反映，以3萬元來講，不管是三位總統候選人提的目標，你個人都不可以直接往時薪200元這個方向做一個努力、承諾、正向看待，這樣他們開會要怎麼討論？"],["陳院長建仁：我們個人都不能夠同意……"],["游委員顥：你們個人不能……"],["陳院長建仁：要由審議委員會來做……"],["許部長銘春：對，要由他們來決定，這是合議制。"],["陳院長建仁：這是合議制，我們不能破壞制度，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第12號蘇委員清泉質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.35096875,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.809093750000002,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.99471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.21409375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.95221875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.609718750000003,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.360343750000002,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.61659375,"end":38.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.06284375,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.290343750000005,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.297218750000006,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.23784375,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.77721875,"end":63.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.94409375000001,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.58096875000001,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.62284375,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.96784375,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.44596875,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":118.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":120.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.75471875000001,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.72471875000001,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.70221875000001,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.27534375000002,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.76534375,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.70159375,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.09784375,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.41409375,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.05034375000002,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.91284375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.37034375000002,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.38721875000002,"end":204.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.37846875000002,"end":208.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.17971875,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.61346875,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.26659375000003,"end":223.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.23659375000003,"end":233.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.28971875000002,"end":239.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.20034375,"end":247.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.04409375,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.47846875000002,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.23284375000003,"end":275.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.50284375,"end":277.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.56159375000004,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.39159375,"end":290.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.47971875,"end":288.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.02346875,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":294.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.02534375000005,"end":312.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.74159375,"end":335.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.40471875000003,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.96471875000003,"end":343.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.45409375,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.47096875,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.48784375,"end":344.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.62284375,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.35096875000005,"end":370.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.41346875000005,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.96159375,"end":363.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.65659375,"end":370.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.67346875000004,"end":374.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.89284375,"end":371.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.76596875,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.25096875,"end":374.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.26784375,"end":376.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.28471875,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.10721875,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.25909375000003,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.41096875000005,"end":376.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.46159375,"end":376.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.74846875000003,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.76534375,"end":376.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.78221875,"end":383.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.79909375,"end":377.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.25346875,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.64971875000003,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.00346875,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.96471875000003,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.03221875,"end":397.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.80846875000003,"end":397.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.84221875000003,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.90534375000004,"end":398.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.97284375000004,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.07409375000003,"end":403.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.81596875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.24159375000005,"end":408.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.82784375,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.35284375000003,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.62659375000004,"end":429.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.15784375000004,"end":434.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.41034375000004,"end":435.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.92909375000005,"end":443.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.18534375,"end":452.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.21909375,"end":444.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.43284375,"end":475.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.44971875000005,"end":452.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.35971875,"end":462.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.28784375000004,"end":462.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.61909375000005,"end":480.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.10346875000005,"end":481.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.28471875,"end":493.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.11409375000005,"end":505.36971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.43721875000006,"end":506.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.77034375000005,"end":530.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.9609687500001,"end":529.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.71596875,"end":534.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.74971875,"end":531.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.1584687500001,"end":536.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.77409375,"end":560.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.2978437500001,"end":563.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.4028437500001,"end":564.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.00596875,"end":567.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.22909375,"end":571.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.51971875,"end":572.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.49409375,"end":576.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.3415937500001,"end":581.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.61096875,"end":584.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.2222187500001,"end":586.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.7240937500001,"end":588.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.34409375,"end":589.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.9640937500001,"end":593.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.2378437500001,"end":593.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.60909375,"end":619.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.69596875,"end":605.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.9890937499999,"end":627.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":620.15346875,"end":621.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":625.5365937500001,"end":626.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":626.5322187500001,"end":626.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.0047187499999,"end":627.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.3759687500001,"end":635.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.45909375,"end":635.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.35346875,"end":642.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.5134687500001,"end":638.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.3572187500001,"end":639.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.36971875,"end":649.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.8872187500001,"end":652.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.4522187499999,"end":653.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.32971875,"end":653.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.5447187500001,"end":655.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.0634687500001,"end":656.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.44159375,"end":667.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.52159375,"end":668.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.8715937500001,"end":671.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.8078437500001,"end":673.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.88346875,"end":675.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.12784375,"end":683.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":683.1140937499999,"end":683.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":683.60346875,"end":689.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":689.17221875,"end":690.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":690.5390937500001,"end":691.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":691.6865937500002,"end":694.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.99846875,"end":695.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":694.42034375,"end":697.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.93909375,"end":705.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.67596875,"end":709.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.72596875,"end":713.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":713.35409375,"end":714.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.4678437500002,"end":715.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.66596875,"end":719.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":719.26034375,"end":724.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.64346875,"end":730.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.6428437500001,"end":731.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.0009687500001,"end":732.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.4522187500002,"end":735.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.74721875,"end":736.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.13096875,"end":738.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.56534375,"end":740.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.38784375,"end":741.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.36221875,"end":746.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.42909375,"end":747.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.42471875,"end":749.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.8884687500001,"end":752.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.4028437500001,"end":754.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.40659375,"end":763.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.6922187499999,"end":769.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.76721875,"end":772.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":772.0790937500001,"end":772.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.6528437500001,"end":774.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.13346875,"end":779.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.1115937500001,"end":788.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.4140937500001,"end":793.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.66221875,"end":797.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.1215937500001,"end":799.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.6528437500001,"end":804.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":804.76596875,"end":808.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.59659375,"end":809.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":808.6472187500001,"end":808.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":810.30096875,"end":810.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.8915937500001,"end":813.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":812.91659375,"end":814.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.8447187500001,"end":815.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":814.89096875,"end":829.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.6203437500001,"end":818.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.58221875,"end":820.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.9909687500001,"end":823.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.1297187500002,"end":840.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":841.19909375,"end":866.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":855.67784375,"end":855.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.69471875,"end":857.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":866.12346875,"end":868.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":868.92471875,"end":870.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.74721875,"end":873.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.9197187500001,"end":885.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.6572187500001,"end":881.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.39471875,"end":888.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":889.9172187500001,"end":900.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.6340937500001,"end":896.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.13534375,"end":898.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.99596875,"end":900.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.3628437500001,"end":900.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":900.4640937500001,"end":900.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.7678437500001,"end":902.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":901.5947187500001,"end":904.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.0290937500001,"end":922.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.8953437500002,"end":924.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.16784375,"end":936.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.40346875,"end":942.1115937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.757,"end":31.254,"text":"謝謝院長。有請陳院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。再也請這個衛福部長。麻煩請衛福部備詢。好。游委員。午安。午安。午安。謝謝院長。那關係上週五質詢的時候有提到行政院的穩定物價小組。那接著那天晚上就看到新聞稿有指出那包括密切觀察清明節農產及"},{"start":32.779,"end":57.029,"text":"的民生物資的價量情勢那等等那就看到當天晚上新聞稿就上了那但是本席還是要表反應的就是說因為那時候是記得一段時間都沒有放因為不一定每個月開會那放了之後到最後是只有兩頁只有兩頁的一個會議紀錄那所以也難怪大家對於目前行政院穩定物價小組"},{"start":57.853,"end":69.381,"text":"在這個穩定物價的一個功能跟速度上大家當然是民眾會感到擔憂那所以說在這裡還是要特別的在勉勵也激勵一下"},{"start":70.051,"end":70.171,"text":"市長市長市長"},{"start":91.917,"end":111.949,"text":"就如同委員所鼓勵的我們繼續努力把物價穩定當作是一個很重要的一個工作而且在未來的這個紀錄上能夠稍微更詳細一點。這個結論摘要可以理解但是要及時因為民眾其實大家還是會非常的重視今年會不會是漲字當頭漲注是關鍵字好"},{"start":115.131,"end":136.153,"text":"那謝謝院長那接著再回到漲價這一題臺電確定要漲價11%還不用說小戶用電會不會影響不管是一個麵包的產生從運送到製造配送販賣通通都跟電有關係百分之百都會受到影響但是先前講到漲健保的這一塊不知道會不會調漲"},{"start":137.358,"end":159.696,"text":"那就是請教院長跟部長在醫院跟診所那24小時的有12小時營運的診所也有但是因為像這些的醫院跟診所他們這環境有許多重要的藥物藥品包括疫苗他們其實都需要一個冷藏設備需要維持他疫苗的活性所以這個用電的漲價這個一定會受到牽連"},{"start":160.817,"end":172.514,"text":"那想先請教一下部長,針對診所、小型醫院會不會採取電費的補助?怎麼補助還能夠讓我們的民眾不會因為這個漲健保費受到影響?"},{"start":173.846,"end":199.762,"text":"從我們初步的一個估計那大型的醫院他這一次電價的調漲對他們的成本的影響大概是在0.5到1%這樣但是小醫院就比較高大概會影響2%到3%那診所來講的話目前看起來影響並不大因為他大部分都是屬於住家型的一個用電"},{"start":200.816,"end":230.067,"text":"那事實上他用電的強度也沒那麼高那就直接請教部長因為在南投縣算是偏鄉那其實在這個數據資料我也有醫學中心是0.5到1%地區醫院是2到4%還部立醫院不同那臺北桃園的跟偏鄉的這個比例也都不同那就想要直接就教部長那目前針對這個小型醫院跟診所的部分在因為用電的部分那漲價了那補助的部分"},{"start":230.934,"end":249.529,"text":"還照顧的部分要如何進行以及健保分會不會調漲?所以這個部分的話那行政院是要做一個通盤的檢討那我就直接請教院長那這個可不可以做一個宣示性的部分會針對醫院跟診所來進行補貼基本上是這樣子"},{"start":250.029,"end":265.425,"text":"如果說我們調漲電價很多人就說我電價調漲啦我因為大家都用電所以所有的都調漲這樣的講法並不合理最主要的原因就是要看他的占比那剛才講在醫院診所這個占比實際上不高"},{"start":265.965,"end":286.602,"text":"那在他的如果他在他的營運成本的占比不高的時候當然我們就希望這一些醫院診所可以自行吸收了所以說就是不會補助嘛對不對對基本上我們的看法是因為他在他的整個營運成本上的占比低嘛所以我們沒有到需要補助的這個階段"},{"start":287.563,"end":312.193,"text":"因為坦白講這個遷移法動全身那其實任何的一個天價調漲明天這個副院長還是會請這個相關的單位再來做一次的討論但是基本上我們是要看他的占比是多少好沒關係那我還是在這裡本席還是要提出因為我也要為地方的診所包括我們的醫院來發聲那因為這種漲電價遷移法動全身"},{"start":316.485,"end":338.36,"text":"那勢必一定會增加他們的成本那如果說在一個可以的預算之下那也會希望說行政院也要體恤這些醫療機構他們在地方上面不是因為醫療機構他就一定是比較富有而是他們在所做的其實還是在照顧我們地方上的鄉親那如果說在這個比例上面可以的情況之下"},{"start":338.942,"end":357.648,"text":"在檢討的部分還是可以針對他們的部分進行一些通盤的考量那同樣的考量但是我還是在強調要看他的佔營運成本的百分比是多少來做決定那這個本來就是應該要這樣看那看看這個我可以理解但是因為"},{"start":358.428,"end":360.329,"text":"因為這個聲音還是要被聽到還是要被重視這樣子合理吧?"},{"start":385.285,"end":396.8,"text":"那另外的話再補貼電價那不僅是醫院他們可能因為這樣子受到影響那我們是本席是不希望這樣子的成本是轉嫁到病患的身上"},{"start":397.864,"end":417.396,"text":"那我剛才講過我們希望因為他的漲幅很小嘛所以應該他可以自行吸收那同樣的除了醫療機構之外那我們是希望窮人不要走向一個他沒有生病的權利壓垮他們窮人的有時候並不是病痛而是後面他所負擔的一個經濟壓力"},{"start":418.797,"end":434.823,"text":"那所以除了醫療診所、醫院診所之外本席要幫另外一個團體請命就是在目前來講的話許多的社福團體、育幼院、老人照護機構那其實在所謂的高通房、高電價、高消費的情況之下其實像現在來講"},{"start":436.004,"end":465.141,"text":"大家對於社福團體的捐贈的一個意願來講他們其實是比起以前在疫情以前是比較低的。委員那個社福團體已經排除漲價。排除漲價。對。早就是在那個經濟部的宣布當中有啦。沒有問題。因為排除漲價的話那就是至少針對社福團體的部分那能夠進行照顧讓他們善的循環可以持續上漲。甚至還希望外府部包括行政院"},{"start":465.641,"end":465.661,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":482.325,"end":501.078,"text":"那所以說我覺得社福團體要照顧他們才能夠去照顧在這個整個不管是物價上漲的情況疫情之後的情況他們才能夠去幫助更多的人所以除了是電價電價的部分是排除了這是我其中一小題但是另外本席在這裡也希望衛福部包括行政院可以特別針對"},{"start":502.023,"end":527.837,"text":"社福團體的照顧上能夠有一些方案,這樣子同意吧?同意,那看你的方案是什麼?實際上在社福的團體或者長照的這邊的話,政府一向是不予一例。比如說馬前總統的時候,他的那個長照只有不到45億,但是我們現在已經編列了800多億了。所以在社福的,還有社福的預算,我們也增加了"},{"start":528.417,"end":554.853,"text":"這一個按照施政案的增加增加的期限。我要跟院長講你剛才所說的這些內容馬英九總統時期那是起步啊那時候的長照的長照的法規那時候我在當國會助理的時候我也有幫蔡景龍委員跟吳彥文起草過那時候的草野是國民黨執政所以也受到那時候民進黨的委員諸多的一個訪談跟反對所以這過程我知道所以馬英九那時候執政時期他通過了之後"},{"start":555.433,"end":567.449,"text":"有個開頭後面才能夠持續的再有長昭2.0之後的一個成長所以我覺得我在這裡還是要肯定一下馬英九總統好那接著問一下我們地方的議題有關部長就是"},{"start":568.337,"end":592.87,"text":"醫學中心及重度急救責任醫院的服務獎勵計畫那在12年12月31日止那時候有停止那現在來講再開啟下一個階段的計畫那我想請問一下部長針對南投部立醫院我們現在的南投醫院要來做提升那部長您的看法如何以及您的支持的程度如何"},{"start":594.431,"end":610.362,"text":"布利南投醫院,事實上是布利醫院,也跟別的醫院一樣,所以我們是一直要讓他能夠成長,那目前是往重度急救責任醫院的方向去走,但是這恐怕也沒有辦法一觸可及。"},{"start":610.862,"end":635.789,"text":"所以有一些比較可以必要性比較強的部分,比方說在...沒關係,我就直接問部長重點好了。希望您能夠全力的支持部立醫院,因為那有關於我們南投縣徐同縣民。那知識衛專科醫生是他們目前所欠缺的,這個對於衛福部來講應該是可以來去協助的,可以吧?"},{"start":636.854,"end":653.705,"text":"有你的這句話我相信在未來來講的安投不利淵的升級相信我相信對於部內的一個人員來講就是提升很大的信心謝謝那接著老東部長部長謝謝"},{"start":666.852,"end":682.954,"text":"部長,剛才跟你一起走進來,我那時候就很想先問你,目前來講移工的部分有關於這個逃逸外勞8萬3千多人,那目前來講所進行的一個如何改善的措施,請監督回答一下。"},{"start":683.795,"end":712.902,"text":"報告委員其實我們大概因為針對一些缺工的產業比如說像農業、民間營造業那我們這個尤其民間營造業我們開放那農業的部分也增加你這個解釋的範圍太久但是我直接跟你說在去年底2月到6月推出的一個自行到案專案有提出了三個內容包括免收容、對地法案2000、不管制禁止入國期間等措施到時候自行出面來報告的移工到底有多少"},{"start":713.302,"end":716.504,"text":"我還是會比較鼓勵說對於這種討議外勞的部分我們還是要去關注這個資訊的傳遞"},{"start":742.466,"end":756.645,"text":"當然像現有的能夠具有這個成績之外還有許多能夠再列在案的包括黑術那在這個問題的話是在於說政策措施的傳遞其實他們並不看得到他們黑工不會看新聞"},{"start":757.386,"end":776.715,"text":"他也不會等著勞動部的措施所以我還是要勉勵勞動部對於這個移工問題大家所擔心的不能飛就用跑的不能跑就用走的不能走也用爬的不管如何還是要持續針對這個議題來去積極改善那我直接接著就叫大家關心的就是最低工資審議委員會在Q3的時候會進行討論"},{"start":780.197,"end":807.595,"text":"那在這次的大選三個總統候選人通通都有提出還希望的一個調漲的一個目標那目前來講我國最低工資在27470那時薪是183那我想直接就叫在今年的CPI超過2%央行最新預測也在2.16%今年有沒有機會調漲的時候以3萬元為目標報告委員因為這個我們的基本工資"},{"start":810.938,"end":832.937,"text":"那一種總統他也有提一個3萬目標。對,我想這個是我們的目標,我們這個3萬是我們的目標,我們一定會持續往這個目標來前進。但是我要跟委員說,這個部分就是最低工資的委員,審議委員會他們去開會決定。那包括說相關的CPM。那我要的其實沒關係,部長,這個勞動體系我很清楚,那我直接請教院長。"},{"start":833.738,"end":852.163,"text":"以這個3萬元為目標,時薪能夠以這200元為目標,在今年往這個方向努力可不可以?我們當然是希望能夠在最低工資的這一個部分努力來全力以赴,但是我仍然支持部長的想法。"},{"start":852.623,"end":873.079,"text":"這要由這個對立公知審議委員會來做最後的決定。因為這樣才能夠更周延。不是只有政府,有政府、勞方還有資方要一起來討論,包括學者專家。這樣才是一個完整的討論結果。這個我都清楚,主持人我都清楚。但是我最主要是想說,院長跟部長還是有一個目標在。"},{"start":873.92,"end":883.55,"text":"大家總是在討論的時候大家在研究的時候比較可以往這方向來聚焦嘛當然如果說以CPI長到2.03%對啦越來越好那所以183再加個2%的話以200為目標有沒有機會"},{"start":889.986,"end":896.029,"text":"今天來講以這個三萬元的時候不管是三位總統候選人提的目標你個人都不可以直接再往這方面來去做一個努力"},{"start":916.9,"end":919.621,"text":"謝謝游浩委員的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第12號蘇委員侵權質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee3bab7ca1a8ec3c4a8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a615031a6dbd7ca5fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:30:32 - 14:46:16","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":944,"end_time":"2024-03-26T14:46:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T14:30:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（14時30分）謝謝主席，我們請行政院長跟衛福部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長及衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員午安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝院長，謝謝部長。首先我想要請教一下人工生殖的議題，臺灣在2019年通過了同婚，在去年我們也通過了跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養，這個其實非常不簡單，我覺得這是民進黨的行政部門，還有我們立法院所有的夥伴，還有許多團體共同的成果，因為我們非常重視性別人權，才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果。走到了現在，我認為接下來我們應該要討論一下人工生殖的部分，也就是性別權益最後的一塊拼圖也應該要把它拼起來。首先我想要請教一下院長，你認為生育權是不是憲法所保障的權利之一？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這個是憲法保障的基本權之一，因為大法官的釋字裡面有提到，要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由，所以我們需要家庭制度，是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化等等這一些社會必要的支持，所以大法官其實是非常肯認這個生育權的。只是接下來要討論繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起，為什麼會這樣問呢？因為其實現在我們不結婚，你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的，也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的，以現在臺灣相關的規定來看，不管你要請產假、產檢假，還是領生育補助、領育兒補助，都沒有一定要以結婚為前提，也就是說，我認為不管你有沒有結婚，其實憲法都保障你的生育權。","在這樣的觀點之下來討論人工生殖，我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲，怎麼說？因為臺灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻，現在是這樣子，這樣其實非常的不合理啊！我認為我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對，當然現在的討論是，社會上有人認為單身的家庭是不是資源少一半，然後覺得家庭支持的系統少了一半，可能會影響小孩子的認同，覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀，當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音。甚至有些人會覺得，如果單身女性透過人工生殖來懷孕，會刻意的造成單親家庭，然後會說，因為父親缺席了，你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益。請問院長，您同意這些反對的看法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實是有人提出這樣的反對，在人工生殖法的討論過程當中，確實有這樣的一個意見，但是我們會通盤就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長。我必須說，其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響，不能用感覺、不能用偏見來看待。"],["陳院長建仁：是，同意。"],["黃委員捷：我有準備一些研究，這些研究其實就把這樣的偏見澈底的排除。這個是第一種研究，它是一種非自願單親的型態，它的研究結果是什麼呢？它說，對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身分，而是你的經歷，也就是說，你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭造成小孩覺得有陰影，或者是說因為目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突，然後對小孩造成壓力，也就是說，你的身分是什麼、你是不是單親，並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素，而是在他成長的過程是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情。我還有看到另外一份研究，它是準備了一組51個單親的家庭，然後另外一組是雙親，他們都是透過捐精的方式懷孕的，在這兩組的類別當中發現什麼呢？它發現其實不管你是哪一種型態的家庭，你的養育品質都是沒有差異的，甚至還發現單親家庭中母親與孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低。他的意思就是，不會因為你是單親媽媽就特別讓孩子有心理壓力，甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的，家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來得重要，也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處，有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷，遠比到底是什麼類型的家庭結構重要的多。","所以我認為前面的這些反對意見根本就不存在，重點是你的家庭、你的社會可以給予多少支持，這種先入為主一定要一個爸爸、一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好，這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持，以及目前的研究來支持的。根據以上這些主張，我想要問，現在行政院有沒有在準備人工生殖版的修法？如果有的話，大概什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：確實是有，我請部長簡單回答一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前正在修法的過程當中，我們彙集各界的意見，上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會，在27日還會舉行另外一次的公聽會，把這些意見都蒐集起來之後，我們的版本就會送到行政院去。"],["黃委員捷：院版預計在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院，我們可以進到修法的階段？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會，所以在這個部分的話，也許看看上半年能不能就送到立法院來。"],["陳院長建仁：一旦送到行政院來，我們會請政委加速審查，加速出行政院。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長，希望如期的、如你們所說的，上半年我們就把人工生殖法送進來。","再來，我要請教部長，因為最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情，陳情的內容是什麼呢？是關於兒少虛擬的部分。我們看一下iWIN的爭議，這個爭議的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月時發了一個函釋，函釋裡面說什麼呢？兒少性剝削條例包括虛擬的兒少性影像。在這個函釋發了之後，12月iWIN就接到檢舉，其指出PTT上面有人在散播虛擬兒少的色情圖片，經iWIN判斷這有違反兒少性剝削，而且違反兒少權法，結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了。因此我們就接到一大堆陳情，說我們現在的控制是到什麼程度，其實大家比較多的是擔憂，覺得在我們具體範圍不明的情況下，大家不知道該如何是好。","首先，我先請問一下部長，現在不管是兒少性剝削條例或兒少權法，針對真實兒少的色情，我們要保障的目的是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個當然是保障兒少本身。第二個保障是對一般閱聽者來看的話，就是讓他不要有對兒少為一個角色的幻想。"],["黃委員捷：是的，部長剛剛提到兩個部分，我剛剛講的是真實兒少色情的部分，因為真實的兒少色情就是不希望有真的兒童個體受到不法侵害，可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的，就是像你剛剛說的第二種類型，就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險。簡單說，如果有些人看了這些照片，你們擔心這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖，他就跑去犯罪，我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法益。一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人，虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險，就是所謂的社會法益，可是在憲法的層次，如果要討論這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候，會去看他們的比例原則，也就是我現在做了一個行為可能造成多大的危險，我就來訂定多強的管制手段。但是現在的虛擬兒少與犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊！所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少，你用刑責來加諸在它身上，真的是大砲打小鳥。","部長，你可以看一下這份研究，這是日本網友做的非常有趣的研究，你看一下那個綠色的，這是日本動漫當年度發行的數量，黃色跟紅色的線是青少年跟兒童被害的數量，如果你真的要去拉因果關係，你會發現說：哇！動漫發行得越來越多，結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少，你可以這樣解讀嗎？不會這樣解讀嘛！就是因為不會這樣解讀，所以我們不會說因為這個創作的數量，或是創作的兒少色情部分，就跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係，這是非常荒謬的。","動漫工會在前幾週有辦一個論壇，日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家，即純情房東俏房客的作家──赤松健，他現在也是日本眾議員，他就有表達：日本在過去也因為一些有心人士，以這種保護兒童跟青少年之名，希望透過法律來限縮創作自由，但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據。其實以你們現在的主張，你們就認為這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯，因為你認為他只要畫了，他只要散布了虛擬的兒童裸體圖就犯法了，也不去看是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼？像酒駕。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員捷：因為你酒駕，這個社會真的都認為酒駕造成的風險非常高，這是一種抽象危險犯的概念，可是現在他畫了一個兒童虛擬的裸體圖，就覺得他很危險，他跟酒駕一樣危險，這樣邏輯對嗎？這樣不會太荒謬嗎？當然我覺得比例原則跟法制的問題是一個部分，我最擔心的還是會不會因為這樣影響到我們的文化創作，怎麼說？我們來看下面的第一張圖，不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠？七龍珠是很多人共同的童年回憶。"],["薛部長瑞元：我有看過。"],["黃委員捷：你有看過，我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面，這個經典的漫畫裡面，像是第一個圖，這是烏龍扮成的布馬，這個角色在當時其實也是未成年，他是裸體的兒童；再來第二張圖不知道有沒有看過？亂馬二分之一，也是一個非常經典的漫畫，裡面也是一個未成年的少年，也是有裸露的畫面；再看一下第三張圖，第三張圖叫作「兒時的丘比特跟賽琪」，它是一個法國畫家的作品，那裡面不只是有裸露，而且還有親吻的動作；第四個圖是一位美國天才作家跟畫家叫作亨利·達格，他的作品叫作「薇薇安女孩的故事」，裡面是在講有一群兒童在對抗一群奇幻的生物，因為這群兒童在戰鬥當中，所以你可以看到圖片裡面，他們是受到折磨的、裸體的、被捆綁的。我想問一下以上這四張圖，部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件，一個是會引起所謂的猥褻意義，第二個才是兒少，要符合這兩個條件才會構成違法。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。沒錯，要符合兒少，而且要猥褻，猥褻的定義是什麼？有人覺得看了這四張圖，他覺得很猥褻，他是不是就跑去檢舉了，造成的結果……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然不能全憑主觀啦！"],["黃委員捷：不好意思，部長請聽我講一下。我知道我剛剛舉的這些例子，不一定真的到最後會被定罪，為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由？是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片，他就覺得符合兒少而且猥褻的定義，然後在過程當中，他就瘋狂去檢舉，在PTT上面看到，在網路上看到，他覺得看了七龍珠很猥褻，就跑去檢舉了，這樣造成的結果是什麼？如果我現在是一個創作者就會說：好啊！與其每一天這樣提心吊膽，我乾脆不畫了，我乾脆不要創作了，難道你要我每天畫畫的時候，旁邊對照一個範例的圖本，喔！這個姿勢可以，喔！這個表情可以，喔！這個裸露肩膀可以，然後這個不行。他難道要每天這樣對照著，來創作他的漫畫嗎？當你們這樣界定下去，就會造成這樣的結果，所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由，當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的。所以我要講一下我具體的建議，第一個、真實的兒少本來就應該要保護，這些犯罪一定要打擊到底，絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害，這個是前提，但是因為現在兒少性剝削條例裡面並沒有寫明包括虛擬作品，也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上，所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品，至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品，就是說他畫的這個圖，他不是指涉一個具體的兒童，他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害，如果可以的話，這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢？最後，因為兒少權法的有害身心的內容，你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引，導致大家現在人心惶惶，你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施？然後去讓網路社群有一個健全的自治的機制呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然目前來講我們會綜合各界的意見再去做處理，這是需要溝通的。"],["黃委員捷：這件事一定要拜託部長好不好？這件事情非常多年輕人在關心。"],["薛部長瑞元：了解。"],["黃委員捷：懇請部長，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第11號游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.021593750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.31221875,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.141593750000006,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.10721875,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.064718750000004,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.50346875000001,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.01846875000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.62034375,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.72034375000001,"end":134.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.87909375,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.79034375,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.71721875,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.66846875000002,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.86221875,"end":194.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.25784375,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.68284375000002,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.47471875000002,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.41909375,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.61784375,"end":298.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.20784375,"end":326.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.47784375000003,"end":329.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.32971875000004,"end":351.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.95909375,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.30784375,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.98909375000005,"end":383.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.07346875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.14096875,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.22034375000004,"end":381.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.08909375,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.68284375,"end":401.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.07784375,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.55409375000005,"end":419.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.30284375,"end":423.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.49221875,"end":449.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.18846875,"end":455.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.98909375000005,"end":469.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.71284375000005,"end":480.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.81659375000004,"end":488.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.64221875000004,"end":513.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.11096875,"end":522.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.10534375,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.6440937500001,"end":565.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.44034375,"end":581.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.15096875,"end":591.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.31409375,"end":592.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.9678437499999,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.6553437499999,"end":607.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.1428437500001,"end":631.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.4890937499999,"end":653.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.07221875,"end":672.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.05659375,"end":676.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.8872187500001,"end":685.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.6240937500002,"end":687.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.8897187500002,"end":689.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.31971875,"end":691.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.70346875,"end":693.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.2178437500002,"end":712.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.2978437500001,"end":695.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.68159375,"end":697.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.67909375,"end":714.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.1765937499999,"end":717.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.19721875,"end":726.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.44471875,"end":755.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.45284375,"end":760.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.94159375,"end":766.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.3584687500002,"end":774.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.82971875,"end":777.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.52971875,"end":780.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.63471875,"end":781.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.34346875,"end":781.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.7822187500001,"end":782.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.11971875,"end":791.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.97471875,"end":844.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.99159375,"end":792.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.14346875,"end":792.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.97034375,"end":794.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.2040937500001,"end":809.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.57409375,"end":862.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":863.0522187500001,"end":895.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.5703437500001,"end":913.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":934.0959687500001,"end":937.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.96034375,"end":939.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.05284375,"end":942.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":0.309,"text":"黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員"},{"start":8.803,"end":35.731,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果"},{"start":36.271,"end":36.291,"text":"應該是。"},{"start":54.247,"end":80.424,"text":"沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起"},{"start":81.596,"end":106.003,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權"},{"start":107.063,"end":133.746,"text":"那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對"},{"start":135.447,"end":161.776,"text":"當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭"},{"start":162.856,"end":171.052,"text":"然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?"},{"start":172.516,"end":193.394,"text":"這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待"},{"start":195.316,"end":220.053,"text":"那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影"},{"start":220.854,"end":237.724,"text":"或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情"},{"start":238.544,"end":253.13,"text":"那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組"},{"start":254.13,"end":269.692,"text":"的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低"},{"start":270.473,"end":298.115,"text":"那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在"},{"start":299.244,"end":315.045,"text":"重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的"},{"start":315.626,"end":317.427,"text":"目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。"},{"start":336.892,"end":351.02,"text":"上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去"},{"start":352.442,"end":375.362,"text":"我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來"},{"start":376.522,"end":404.803,"text":"我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。"},{"start":405.623,"end":422.783,"text":"那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月"},{"start":423.564,"end":449.221,"text":"IWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的"},{"start":450.222,"end":469.057,"text":"具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?"},{"start":470.162,"end":488.562,"text":"當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。"},{"start":489.687,"end":513.11,"text":"是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險"},{"start":514.161,"end":522.147,"text":"那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪"},{"start":523.154,"end":549.796,"text":"我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段"},{"start":550.276,"end":565.45,"text":"但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。"},{"start":566.511,"end":581.484,"text":"部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量"},{"start":582.245,"end":606.31,"text":"如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的"},{"start":607.31,"end":631.1,"text":"那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據"},{"start":632.521,"end":653.108,"text":"那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。"},{"start":654.087,"end":672.026,"text":"因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險"},{"start":673.107,"end":673.687,"text":"怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。"},{"start":690.339,"end":708.082,"text":"看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬"},{"start":708.703,"end":726.737,"text":"那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面"},{"start":727.658,"end":755.353,"text":"再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面"},{"start":756.474,"end":778.365,"text":"他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法"},{"start":780.666,"end":798.747,"text":"好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。"},{"start":799.227,"end":819.68,"text":"只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼"},{"start":820.12,"end":843.41,"text":"如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎"},{"start":845.011,"end":862.086,"text":"這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護"},{"start":863.066,"end":889.808,"text":"一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。"},{"start":890.168,"end":913.335,"text":"他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施"},{"start":934.187,"end":935.448,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eebcf6ebada7e2ea268ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6bd08ba42753e627a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"11:53:53 - 12:09:41","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-03-26T12:09:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T11:53:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（11時54分）我請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：院長辛苦了。我看你面對民進黨委員的質詢都眉開眼笑，如果是國民黨……"],["陳院長建仁：我對你也是眉開眼笑。沒有啦！如果講得有道理，我當然就眉開眼笑。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！對於國民黨的一些年輕委員，其實我們疼惜年輕人是不分黨派的。"],["陳院長建仁：我同意、我同意。"],["謝委員龍介：你的年紀都能當人家的父親了……"],["陳院長建仁：當阿公也可以。"],["謝委員龍介：人家問你什麼，你竟然一副「啊！你外行！」的樣子，不要這樣，我覺得你這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦！就是講道理啊！"],["謝委員龍介：民進黨委員講的我聽起來也覺得文不對題，可是這個時候你就說：我舉個例子給你聽。人生是在學習……"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["謝委員龍介：他是代表人民來啊！臺灣2,300萬人……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：專業的人也沒有很多，像你這麼專業的人沒有幾個耶！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你比較專業。"],["謝委員龍介：所以我對你的尊敬是這樣來的。內行，我跟你說，內行惡質的人很多，官商勾結都是內行的，內行的會「縛枝骨」，所以你看那些太陽能，都是內行的在搞，還會接受不當的招待，人家才要服務你啊！那種內行的比外行的更慘耶！"],["陳院長建仁：如果是這樣，要報給檢察官抓他們去關。"],["謝委員龍介：所以不要用內行跟外行，在這裡我覺得……"],["陳院長建仁：但是問政就要內行。"],["謝委員龍介：因為他們都值得你疼惜嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！我同意，我要疼惜年輕人。"],["謝委員龍介：如果是我在這裡講錯，你就可以不用疼惜我……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我還是要疼惜。"],["謝委員龍介：你可以直接跟我講……"],["陳院長建仁：互相疼惜啦！互相疼惜。"],["謝委員龍介：因為我的人生經驗跟他們比較不一樣。我請問你，你有在吃「胖」嗎？你會愛吃「胖」嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：「胖」？麵包嘛？"],["謝委員龍介：對、對、對、對。"],["陳院長建仁：有啦！我有吃麵包。"],["謝委員龍介：像你的部長說，麵包店一個月吃電不超過700度，他也很外行。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦！看是哪一種麵包店。"],["謝委員龍介：他也很外行啦！對不對？哪一個烘焙業者現在不是吃電吃很重？"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！烘焙業本來就……"],["謝委員龍介：就像你說的，醫院的電費差不多占成本的0.5%，這是正確的，但是電價上漲之後，原來你的部長在3月初是講說掛號費從現在開始就不用受到過去的約束，讓醫院自行調整。"],["陳院長建仁：不是自行調整，不用……"],["謝委員龍介：自行調整啦！"],["陳院長建仁：不用報備啦！"],["謝委員龍介：算他的成本，不用再報備。"],["陳院長建仁：對，不用報備。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣的意思就是你們差不多要漲電價了，然後這0.5%他們就從掛號費去調整就好。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，沒有這個意思，現在調整掛號費的很少。"],["謝委員龍介：他之前的發言就有說到醫療成本，所以自行去調整，我不是要跟你說對或不對，因為事實上就是大家都有感受到漲價。","能源政策已經決定非核，所以造成非核能大家要去面對，而你是最高的行政首長，你有義務將人民瞬間的痛苦降低，這就跟治療一樣，如果你突然一次通通來，我跟你說基層就會撐不住，這是必然的，但是不漲價的話，台電就會倒……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["謝委員龍介：政府也是要面對其他的問題，也是很嚴重啊！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：所以大家是不是要回歸到能源政策，你也不敢說不然就繼續將核能延期，你敢承諾嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：核能如果延期，不一定會比較省錢，現在……"],["謝委員龍介：人家都是專家，也有內行的人，都研究過了，可以在安全的情形下延續20年，不但是在安全的情形下，你說沒有比較省錢，我跟你說，絕對比你的太陽能省錢，也比你的燃氣省錢，我跟你保證……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，核能廠除役的錢是很貴的喔！"],["謝委員龍介：我知道啦！在它還沒除役前……"],["陳院長建仁：還有核廢料的處理呢？核廢料難道說放著讓我們子子孫孫去負擔嗎？"],["謝委員龍介：你最愛講科學啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！科學就是核廢料處理的錢……"],["謝委員龍介：科學就是過去的核能廢料，40年前的核能廢料，跟今天核能廢料所面對的科學已經不一樣了，甚至在未來的10年內，這些核能廢料的再利用，都可以在科學安全的監督之下得到再利用……"],["陳院長建仁：不是……"],["謝委員龍介：我今天不是要跟你討論核能的政策……"],["陳院長建仁：這個我不同意。"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是科學。"],["謝委員龍介：我就跟你說，漲電價……"],["陳院長建仁：核廢料處理很貴。"],["謝委員龍介：漲電價以後會影響很多啦！"],["陳院長建仁：電費的上漲跟核能沒有關係。"],["謝委員龍介：因為福利單位不用漲價，學校不用漲價，那醫療單位是否可以不用漲價，你們本身就要去做評估。","我再請教你一個問題，你知道臺灣有多少「黑人」嗎？我講的「黑人」是沒有身分證、沒有戶口的人。"],["陳院長建仁：我想有一些逃逸的勞工……"],["謝委員龍介：明確的數字，你不用回答。你知道有這些人嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道有這些人……"],["謝委員龍介：大概有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：逃逸勞工。"],["謝委員龍介：不是逃逸，逃逸的部分，我們是有列管、有他們的資料，我不是在跟你說逃逸的，逃逸的有八、九萬人，你們登錄的有八萬五千多人，但是實際的數字比這個還多，你有認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有這個數字，我不知道你的數字從哪裡來的？"],["謝委員龍介：好，我來跟你說，登錄八萬五千多人，實際是超過八萬五千多人。你知道這些逃逸外勞都在做什麼嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：大部分我所瞭解的，如果有抓到以後，我們知道的……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！抓到的，就已經被你抓走了。"],["陳院長建仁：抓到的人會反映他們以前逃逸的期間在做什麼，大部分依然還是在這裡打工啦。"],["謝委員龍介：對，我講給你聽。院長，有很多事情因為你都很忙，基層的人員也不一定在第一時間跟你報告這些細節，你知不知道那些逃逸外勞有生多少小孩？我在說的「黑人」就是這個。"],["陳院長建仁：如果你是說逃逸外勞生多少小孩，這個我們……"],["謝委員龍介：生小孩沒報戶口。"],["陳院長建仁：衛福部也有一些統計。"],["謝委員龍介：生小孩沒報戶口，接下來怎麼樣？現在你們又要讓印度進來10萬人，你知不知道現在在工地上面，大型工地都會寫一張「僱用非法外籍勞工會罰15萬至75萬」，寫得很多啦！結果你知不知道這些外籍勞工在做什麼？我跟你說，他們在做包工頭，和我們臺灣的包工頭在拚！我們包工頭看到這個大工程，譬如部長這裡缺40個工人，明天幫你派來，1天1位工人2,800元，而逃逸外勞的包工頭卻說不用，只要2,300元就好了。他在和我們臺灣這些合法的包工頭拚，他不用幫工人保勞保，他也不用成本，結果他拚2,300元，這個發包的人竟然僱用他，讓他明天8點準時準點派40個人來報到。你們都抓不到，你們都沒辦法抓啊！我現在跟你說這個news，院長有沒有信心抓到？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們要認真來查緝。這個部分，我請部長說一下。"],["謝委員龍介：你們現在檢舉有沒有獎金？"],["陳院長建仁：讓部長說一下。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，逃逸移工的查緝是移民署會會同國安團隊一起來抓，所以我們只要有接獲線報，我們會去查緝……"],["謝委員龍介：不用會同。我現在就跟你說在工地裡面就有這些沒有身分證的逃逸移工，每天在那裡做，還兼做包工頭，他是包工頭，不是來做工而已，他是跟我們臺灣的包工頭在拚，這些土木包工要去跟把大包拿小包，你聽得懂嗎？還要再開發票給他，你聽得懂嗎？他不用發票、不用成本在跟臺灣的包工頭拚啊！"],["許部長銘春：委員，這種情形只要一檢舉，我們一定會去查緝。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你們說，你們的檢舉獎金有多少？1個平均不到1萬。現在逃逸外勞的部分，還有檢舉獎金嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這可能要問移民署。"],["陳院長建仁：因為今天不是移民署……"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你們說，平均1個人得到的檢舉獎金將近1萬塊，你們在3年前大概被領了兩千多萬出去，等於1年抓不到1,000個，可是跑掉的很多。你們有在做，但是怎麼樣？到底是人力不足，沒辦法去面對，還是情報消息掌握得不足？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這樣啦，委員你今天說的，因為法務部跟內政部沒來，但是我答應你，我們要查緝這些勞工……"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！這後面還有治安問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，當然，我就是要說這個。"],["謝委員龍介：還有醫療問題，有很多的問題。","好，勞動部知道兩個禮拜前，鯉魚潭水庫有一個22歲的年輕人在那邊工作溺死，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，我有看到，很不捨這位……"],["許部長銘春：我們有看到這個……"],["謝委員龍介：到現在還沒有找到。我請問你，在水庫做工要開船，他又沒有駕照，為什麼可以開船？這個動力船要考駕照，因為在考駕照當中有跟你約束要怎麼救生，萬一有人溺水，你要怎麼處置，才可以拿到這個駕駛執照，他又沒有駕照，為什麼他可以去開這艘船？造成一條生命消失。這是一個孝子啊！他爸爸生病的時候都是他在照顧，結果你們勞動部有去勞檢嗎？你們有針對這個特殊的行業，整個水庫都沒有監視器，大家都不知道他是怎麼溺死的。我有問水庫的主任，他簡單地說不知道，因為沒人在場所以給你的報告就不準了嘛！院長，難道不是這樣嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：現在只知道人沒了，你們對這個特殊行業、特殊工程的發包是怎麼督導的？你沒辦法嘛！是你們勞動檢查說的，這也是我聽人家說的，如果有donate給你們民進黨的都不用進行勞動檢查啦！"],["許部長銘春：沒有這回事喔！報告委員，沒有這回事。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道，你們一定會說沒有嘛！"],["許部長銘春：確實沒有這回事啊！"],["謝委員龍介：民進黨我也認識很多人……"],["許部長銘春：只要有違法的我們一視同仁。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，我並不是說一定有啦！要避免這款的啦！勞動檢查如果有政治介入……"],["許部長銘春：不可能啦！"],["謝委員龍介：枉費院長的人格這麼好、這麼高，你督導的這個部會如果還是有這樣的情形，我是非常不以為然啦！"],["陳院長建仁：如果勞動部有用政治的方式在做勞動檢查，我一定會要求這樣絕對是不行的。"],["謝委員龍介：當然啊！"],["陳院長建仁：另外，你剛剛講到失聯移工的這些問題，實際上我們會請內政部、法務部和勞動部一起研究勞動檢查的問題。"],["謝委員龍介：這些人都很內行，內行的都知道要去找什麼人、拜託什麼人，你聽得懂嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，這也要地方政府和中央……"],["謝委員龍介：沒必要，如果來拜託謝龍介，謝龍介就會跟你說這間檢查會怎樣，恰巧就是越拜託越快死，因為沒拜託沒檢查，越拜託越要檢查，所以要避免啦！","院長，蘇丹紅這種東西讓惹出這麼多社會風波，我請教你，這段時間你有要求食藥署針對這些食品安全去擴大檢查嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！檢查……"],["謝委員龍介：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：檢查的問題就是，如果是蘇丹紅、辣椒粉的這件事，實際上我們是發現……"],["謝委員龍介：我知道你們有在做，我現在是說，針對其他的食品……"],["陳院長建仁：當然都有定期在檢查啊！"],["謝委員龍介：這次的比較緊張，這個月以來你有擴大去做嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["謝委員龍介：有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，我們的第一階段就是針對這六個月可能流出來的進口商品去檢查。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，想說今天是你最後一次在這裡，本來我要拿一份報告給你的，但我不能在這裡講，畢竟要科學嘛！不然的話，要是實驗室又被污染到，就會害到人家的產品，企業可能就倒了，對不對？所以報告出來的時候我會即時拿給你，我的意思就是，你們要擴大去檢查啦！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["謝委員龍介：不能只針對現在被爆出來的這些去追蹤，對其他的產品有懷疑的，應該也要在這個時候密集地查驗。院長，你看我這樣說……"],["陳院長建仁：我同意啊！我聽得懂。"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["陳院長建仁：如果你有什麼檢查的單位有檢查出什麼問題的話，送給我、送給部長都可以。"],["謝委員龍介：我會即時送過去給你，這兩天如果有出來的話，我就隨時送過去給你。"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["謝委員龍介：因為這是怎樣……"],["陳院長建仁：檢查要正確啦！"],["謝委員龍介：食品安全是不能妥協的。"],["陳院長建仁：確實是如此，我也完全同意，感謝你。"],["謝委員龍介：如果還有年輕人來這裡向你請教的話，你就要面帶笑容，不能再說他是外行了，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我尊重你的建議，多謝你的建議啦！"],["謝委員龍介：要接受啦！"],["陳院長建仁：當然，但是如有需要跟他們講……"],["謝委員龍介：我請教你，這些部會首長有人跟你報告有新內閣在接觸嗎？現在這些部會首長有人跟你報告嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：都沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：不會是有在接觸但卻沒跟你報告吧？那就非常沒有職業倫理了！你聽得懂嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！這要尊重新的閣揆。"],["謝委員龍介：如果他有去接觸卻沒跟你報告的話，這個人就非常沒有政治倫理了。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員龍介的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，我們就不進行臨時提案之處理，下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.822218750000001,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.73221875,"end":23.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.79971875,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.84159375,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.925968750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.739093750000002,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.549093750000004,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.977843750000005,"end":44.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.01971875,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.97284375,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.344093750000006,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.87971875,"end":50.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.14534375,"end":53.642843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.09846875,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.18284375,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.23346875,"end":56.055968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.540343750000005,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.89409375000001,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.88471875,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.20534375,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.29784375,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.48721875000001,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.40659375,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.46096875,"end":84.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.62096875,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.49846875,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.65846875000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.25284375000001,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.56471875000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.30284375000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.81284375000001,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.94784375,"end":103.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.46659375,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.79534375,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.81221875,"end":103.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.45346875000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.03534375000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.83221875000001,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.08534375,"end":111.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.70534375000001,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.81909375000001,"end":119.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.10096875,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.30346875000001,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.01596875000001,"end":124.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.93971875000001,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.63971875000001,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.59221875,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.53721875000002,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.97159375,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.05971875,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.11846875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.53159375,"end":148.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.40846875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.75846875000002,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.77534375000002,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.77096875,"end":151.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.01971875,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.84659375,"end":154.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.01096875000002,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.49159375000002,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.83721875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.08596875,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.31346875,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.52346875,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.59909375,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.70721875,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.15846875000003,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.80784375000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.85409375,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.91284375,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.94659375,"end":189.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.72284375,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.63784375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.48534375,"end":197.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.73846875,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.75096875000003,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.22346875000002,"end":201.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.42034375,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.10784375,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.92971875,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.61284375000002,"end":220.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.97534375,"end":223.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.64159375000003,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.02534375000002,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.70034375,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.63221875000002,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.77096875,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.52971875000003,"end":239.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.44909375,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.07284375,"end":251.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.73846875,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.44284375,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.98221875,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.47159375,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.97784375000003,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.61846875000003,"end":265.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.32721875000004,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.03159375,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":271.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.30096875000004,"end":270.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.19534375,"end":272.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.83659375,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.82346875,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.57409375000003,"end":284.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.08346875,"end":287.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.00284375,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.03659375,"end":288.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.25596875,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.16721875,"end":296.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.87534375,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.73159375,"end":309.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.33471875000004,"end":297.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.24159375,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.37596875,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.24409375000005,"end":313.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.93971875,"end":318.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.31034375,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.84846875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.03409375,"end":331.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.46409375,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.48096875000005,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.97846875000005,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.64846875,"end":342.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.52159375,"end":344.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.88846875,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.29721875,"end":348.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.42784375,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.69346875,"end":357.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.23659375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.99159375000005,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.33721875000003,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.07096875,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.85971875,"end":368.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.12096875000003,"end":370.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.73659375,"end":374.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.04034375000003,"end":372.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.79096875000005,"end":376.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":378.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.95909375,"end":380.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.59159375,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.34659375,"end":383.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.78534375000004,"end":386.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.53159375,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.29909375,"end":390.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.83909375,"end":391.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.08784375000005,"end":393.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.37034375,"end":395.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.55159375000005,"end":399.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.32284375,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.00159375000004,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.94596875,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.03846875000005,"end":417.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.80534375,"end":419.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.85596875000005,"end":419.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.29034375000003,"end":419.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.76284375,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.88909375000003,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.68971875000005,"end":431.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.86221875,"end":436.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.94596875,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.12721875000005,"end":437.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.85284375000003,"end":438.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.08471875000004,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.35409375,"end":445.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.10471875,"end":447.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.26471875000004,"end":449.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.96909375,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.65221875000003,"end":455.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.68534375,"end":459.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.64659375,"end":462.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.92909375000005,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.97909375,"end":467.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.20659375,"end":470.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.99534375,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.40846875000005,"end":475.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.58534375000005,"end":476.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.63159375000004,"end":478.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.62284375,"end":478.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.75346875,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.47471875,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.46159375,"end":486.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.02659375,"end":488.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.69284375,"end":492.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.65471875000003,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.89471875000004,"end":495.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.81846875,"end":497.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.11346875000004,"end":499.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.74596875000003,"end":502.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.10846875000004,"end":504.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.09971875,"end":508.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.72346875000005,"end":510.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.00596875,"end":512.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.1828437500001,"end":514.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.37659375,"end":516.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.48596875,"end":518.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.5534687500001,"end":518.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.9540937500001,"end":518.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.1228437500001,"end":526.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.67909375,"end":523.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.69596875,"end":523.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.8984687500001,"end":524.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.97846875,"end":525.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.4465937500001,"end":532.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.97721875,"end":538.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.81659375,"end":534.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.8503437500001,"end":536.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.74034375,"end":538.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.15784375,"end":538.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.56284375,"end":546.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.88346875,"end":539.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.45596875,"end":549.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.4890937499999,"end":559.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1459687500001,"end":563.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.51721875,"end":560.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.9053437499999,"end":561.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":562.81221875,"end":564.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.49971875,"end":569.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.95034375,"end":572.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.5615937499999,"end":576.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.42596875,"end":578.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.3034687500001,"end":578.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.3203437500001,"end":578.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.55659375,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.8603437500001,"end":580.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.10909375,"end":580.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.5647187500001,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.61534375,"end":580.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.7165937500001,"end":580.7334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.7334687499999,"end":581.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.1384687500001,"end":581.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.20596875,"end":581.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.2903437500001,"end":581.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.30721875,"end":582.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.9653437500001,"end":582.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.9272187500001,"end":582.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.9778437500001,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.02846875,"end":583.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.7709687500001,"end":584.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.85096875,"end":585.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.81284375,"end":590.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.60096875,"end":595.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.54971875,"end":596.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.35971875,"end":597.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.67159375,"end":599.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.88221875,"end":602.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.0928437499999,"end":606.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.63659375,"end":606.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5984687499999,"end":610.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.9734687499999,"end":622.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.9428437500001,"end":620.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.2165937500001,"end":625.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.2665937500001,"end":625.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.94159375,"end":626.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.07659375,"end":626.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.19471875,"end":627.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.8022187500001,"end":629.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.5990937500001,"end":632.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.34534375,"end":635.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.20159375,"end":639.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.98159375,"end":641.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.2978437500001,"end":642.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.78721875,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.78284375,"end":643.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.08659375,"end":644.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.1540937500001,"end":644.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.50409375,"end":644.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.5715937500001,"end":644.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.19596875,"end":645.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.42784375,"end":649.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.22471875,"end":651.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.04284375,"end":653.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.59534375,"end":656.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.81846875,"end":667.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.2265937500001,"end":665.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.2178437500002,"end":670.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.8628437500001,"end":671.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.8078437500001,"end":674.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.40221875,"end":677.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.57096875,"end":675.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.96721875,"end":678.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.38909375,"end":680.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.57846875,"end":683.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.73846875,"end":687.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.89784375,"end":695.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.9053437500002,"end":696.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.93471875,"end":697.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.89659375,"end":699.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.32659375,"end":703.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.1909687500001,"end":706.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.57846875,"end":709.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.99159375,"end":712.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.98284375,"end":714.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.2947187500001,"end":718.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.7878437500001,"end":721.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.12096875,"end":723.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":722.66909375,"end":726.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.0147187500002,"end":726.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.69784375,"end":728.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":727.9340937500001,"end":730.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.0478437500001,"end":730.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.81971875,"end":732.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.97159375,"end":731.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.63784375,"end":734.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.8484687499999,"end":738.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.97034375,"end":739.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.4765937500001,"end":748.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":746.69909375,"end":746.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.71596875,"end":747.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.7959687500002,"end":757.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.08971875,"end":767.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.0503437500001,"end":772.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.2903437500001,"end":770.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.3872187500001,"end":773.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.17596875,"end":775.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.82971875,"end":776.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.0403437500001,"end":779.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.60534375,"end":779.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.62221875,"end":781.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.87534375,"end":780.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.9340937500001,"end":790.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.41909375,"end":784.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.2078437499999,"end":785.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.3334687500001,"end":794.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.4890937499999,"end":794.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.2990937500001,"end":796.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.2397187500001,"end":797.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.7078437500002,"end":800.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.73284375,"end":803.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.24284375,"end":812.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.81534375,"end":812.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":812.8490937500001,"end":812.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.95034375,"end":812.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":812.96721875,"end":814.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.89096875,"end":816.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":816.44346875,"end":824.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.6615937500001,"end":824.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.8134687500001,"end":824.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.9653437500001,"end":826.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.56409375,"end":830.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.36534375,"end":834.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.17471875,"end":835.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.42346875,"end":844.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.4909687500001,"end":836.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.5872187500001,"end":842.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.8190937500001,"end":843.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.00034375,"end":844.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.20284375,"end":844.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.57409375,"end":847.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.1853437500001,"end":849.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.1597187500001,"end":851.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.35346875,"end":853.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.87221875,"end":856.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.21346875,"end":858.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.6984687500001,"end":859.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.1159687500001,"end":860.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":861.2803437500002,"end":861.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.6303437500001,"end":868.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.0090937500001,"end":869.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.34659375,"end":871.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.5022187500001,"end":873.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.97034375,"end":875.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.8772187500001,"end":876.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.53096875,"end":879.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.62346875,"end":880.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.01971875,"end":883.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":883.53846875,"end":883.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.67346875,"end":883.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":883.97721875,"end":887.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.07784375,"end":892.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.38534375,"end":895.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.52846875,"end":893.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.35096875,"end":898.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":896.22846875,"end":897.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.7934687500001,"end":900.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.6328437500001,"end":901.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.6497187500001,"end":900.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.3247187500001,"end":901.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.69596875,"end":903.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.8940937500001,"end":903.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.90659375,"end":904.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":904.24409375,"end":904.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.8303437500001,"end":912.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.0234687500001,"end":915.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":915.5503437500001,"end":916.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":916.84971875,"end":919.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.80284375,"end":924.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":919.81971875,"end":920.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.9453437500001,"end":927.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.2722187500001,"end":941.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":945.5203437500002,"end":947.69721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.134,"end":15.338,"text":"我請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢。看你這樣,剛才民進黨的委員在問你,你都吹笑罵笑。"},{"start":31.769,"end":38.572,"text":"我對你也非常感激,沒有啦,我們說有道理我當然也非常感激我同意,我同意你做人家老伯都做在地上,你問什麼,你外行不要啊,我感覺你這樣"},{"start":54.139,"end":61.641,"text":"民進黨在說的話,我聽他講的文不對底,你就說我幾個例子給你聽。我講外行人生是在學生,他是代表人民來,台灣兩千三百萬人,專業也沒有很多。你這專業也沒有幾個,所以我對你的尊敬是這樣。來行,我講來行惡劣很多。"},{"start":83.61,"end":83.63,"text":"對啦"},{"start":111.824,"end":137.436,"text":"對,我同意,我要聽哨年輕人。來到這,像我,我如果說錯你就不用聽哨我。沒有沒有,我也要聽哨。你就可以直接把我弄亂了。好想聽哨啦,好想聽哨。我算是比高峰,人生的經驗可能沒有感嘛。所以起來跟你問就說,我請問你,你覺得有在吃胖嗎?你愛吃胖嗎?胖,你麵包嗎?對對對。有啊,我有吃胖。我吃胖。"},{"start":140.094,"end":158.143,"text":"阿想你沒對阿,阿那做胖的齁,那一個位齁胖點齁,一個位吃電沒超過千百多,他也很過行,他也很過行啦,對不對,分配的到一個人現在,沒吃電吃很胖啦,想你講的阿,阿電衣,他的電錢,他的身份差不多0.5%,這是正確的喔。"},{"start":169.588,"end":187.837,"text":"但是這個電池了喔,原來你的補充在三月才說,啊這個...掛合費齁,現在開始就不用想過去的約束啦,不用去主行調整。主行調整啦,不用去啦。剩餘的情分我們不用再拋避嘛。對,不用拋避啦。這樣意思你差不多就想說,準備要蓋電池啦。啊這兩天5%你總要對掛合費去調整就好。"},{"start":197.54,"end":200.284,"text":"我不是要跟你說對與否啦,因為事實企業就是大家都感受到。"},{"start":216.484,"end":244.466,"text":"臨環政策已經固定恢復,所以做生,恢復年就是大家要去面對。但是面對,你是做過行政收到嗎?你就義務給這個臨民瞬間的痛苦,給他講解嘛。這跟做治療一樣嘛。你如果讓一般人都來,一般人都來,我告訴你,基站就站不住嘛。這是必然的啦,但是沒有去,第一天就要做啊。"},{"start":245.448,"end":267.55,"text":"政府也是要面對其他的問題,也是很嚴重啊!所以是不是要恢規矩喔?啊大家不然我們來講,恢規矩另外的政策,你不敢講,不然這個婦人繼續要延期啊?你不敢形容?婦人齁,要延期齁,不然一定是比較生疾。啊不,我告訴你,我講,這人都專家,人也有來行的,都要延期過啊!"},{"start":269.992,"end":275.125,"text":"在土地可以安全的情形下,延續二十年。"},{"start":278.001,"end":279.482,"text":"律師律師律師律師律師律師律師律師律師"},{"start":301.001,"end":311.103,"text":"您想要說科學啊,科學就是過去婦人庇療到今天40年前的婦人庇療,到今天婦人庇療科學所面對的,已經不一樣了。甚至未來的10年來,這婦人庇療的再利用都可以在科學安全的監督之下遞到再利用。"},{"start":326.266,"end":334.449,"text":"所以我今天不是要跟你討論婦女的情緒,沒關係。 我就跟你講齁,這個起第一次,臨時起了會影響很多啦。 醫療因為福利單位不用去嘛,學校不用去嘛。"},{"start":349.622,"end":373.875,"text":"醫療單位可以不用企業的,你們本身就要去做蘋果啦。我再請教你一個問題,你覺得我們台灣有多少黑人?我說的黑人就是沒信心、沒服供的。呃,我想有一些陶藝的勞工。你覺得有這麼多人?我知道有這麼多人,陶藝的勞工。大概有多少,不是陶藝喔,陶藝的我們是有力管喔,我們有他的資料喔。"},{"start":379.011,"end":395.005,"text":"我不是在跟你說討議喔!討議的八九萬人喔!這是你定錄的有八萬五千多的,但是實際的數字比較多!你有認同嗎?我沒有這個數字,我不知道你的數字在哪裡?我來講八萬五千多死的,是超過八萬五千多啦!這樣!你覺得這次的討議我會怎麼做?"},{"start":404.042,"end":408.265,"text":"因為很多事情,你都吃不贏,他也不一定第一時間幫你報告這麼多。"},{"start":428.735,"end":435.758,"text":"你知不知道我們要討議外勞生多少孩子?我講的黑人就是這些啦!你說如果是討議外勞生多少孩子?這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這"},{"start":456.721,"end":467.608,"text":"要發15萬至75萬,很多人。結果你知不知道外籍勞工他們做什麼?我告訴你,他們做帽子頭。包公圖。看我們台灣的帽子頭在旁邊。我們的帽子頭像你這個大工廠,沒錯嗎?你這裡要蓋40個工廠。我問你才把你派來,一輪兩千杯一個。"},{"start":484.48,"end":485.04,"text":"臨時提案委員：謝龍介臨時提案委員：謝龍介"},{"start":513.24,"end":537.009,"text":"你都沒時間了!我現在跟你說這個你有沒有事?你到底有信心了嗎?這我要認真來查緝啦齁,這我沒跟你說過。你現在要趕緊有重金嗎?沒跟你說過。報告委我們這個外移工的查緝、陶藝移工的查緝是移民署齁,會會同國安團隊一起來做。所以我們只要有接獲信號我們就會去。"},{"start":538.63,"end":563.165,"text":"我現在就跟你說,港鐵啊,港鐵裡面就有這麼個沒新聞情的,土耳其的每天在那邊,還兼做報告啦!他是報告給他,不是來做港娘的!啊,他是給我們台灣的報告,我們這裡的土木報告的,我還要去把大包拿小包,你聽到沒有?我還要去開發表給他,你聽到沒有?他不用發表,不用新聞,去放我旁邊啊!"},{"start":564.908,"end":587.859,"text":"請委員齁,我們只要這種情形,一檢舉我們一定會去查緝。我跟妳講,妳的檢舉獎金多少?一個平均不到一萬,現在還有檢舉獎金嗎?討議外勞?這個可能要問移民署。因為今天妳不是移民署。平均啦齁。我跟妳講,妳懂,平均一個人得到的檢舉獎金,獎金要到一萬塊啦。齁。"},{"start":591.793,"end":602.223,"text":"您在3日前大概從那兩千多萬處理啦。等於說一年沒一千個啦。一年沒一千個啦。早期的很多啦。"},{"start":603.137,"end":624.051,"text":"您有在做,但是怎樣?是到底人力不足?人力不足沒有辦法去面對,還是政報銷聲,政案不足?我相信這樣啦,委員,今天你說的齁,我們合不搏陷,你就是大陣搏不來,但是我會答應你齁,我答應你就是說,我要查這個勞工...這後面還有治安問題嘛,還有醫療問題嘛,很多好來。"},{"start":630.643,"end":634.885,"text":"我請問你,水庫在做工要洗乾淨嗎?他還沒乾淨,為什麼要洗乾淨?我們的動力存就對了"},{"start":658.917,"end":679.93,"text":"因為你扣架腳,裡面有跟你約束你要怎麼救身份,有人堵罪你要怎麼處理嘛,還可以拿到這個架手這腳,他也沒有架腳,是怎麼他可以去洗嘴唇啊?阿做生一條生命,這是一個好處啦,他老爸在堅固,他都這樣照顧結果你落東坡,有去跟他落江嘛,你有針對這個特殊的,整個嘴唇都不敢洗,大家都不知道他怎麼堵死"},{"start":689.926,"end":706.612,"text":"阿瓜有蒙嘴口的主任,他有簡單說,他也沒人在乎你的報告就不會出了嘛,他就這樣嗎?是,是。阿剛才說人沒有他,現在就是說你對這個特殊行業,特殊的工程發報,你怎麼那麼獨特的啊?你沒那麼獨特,你就跟警察說的,我是聽人家說的喔。"},{"start":715.336,"end":723.719,"text":"沒有這回事喔?發言委員沒有這回事?沒有確實沒有這回事阿民進黨我發言也有很多人阿我跟妳說啦齁我不是跟妳說一定有啦齁屁阿免有這種的啦"},{"start":736.071,"end":748.357,"text":"如果羅東堅渣還用政敵介入就對了。 不可能啦。我會說他一定不理會說你臨時這麼好、這麼高。若你特地這個補費,若還有這種情形,我是很不依偎的。若說羅東堅有這麼用政治的方式來做勞動檢查,我一定跟他要求說這一定是不行的。"},{"start":758.353,"end":772.564,"text":"阿這連話討話講的齁,你講的這個施連移工的這個問題齁,其實是最大的,我們會請這個內建部、阿哥發布部、阿哥我們勞動部來做討,這個勞動監察就是講什麼勞動監察的問題啦,這的人就是我們都內行"},{"start":777.328,"end":788.914,"text":"來行你就知道說要去找什麼人,拜託,那一定要有嗎?我知道啊,這有那個愛北的...來找謝龍介,拜託謝龍介,跟你們說要這間房子檢查什麼,我越拜託越死啦。沒拜託沒檢查,越拜託越檢查,要拼命啦。你懂嗎?這個蘇丹紅的東西,應該社會風波這麼多啦。"},{"start":804.295,"end":815.847,"text":"我請教你這段時間你有要求施耀書說將對這些食品安全擴大去檢查嗎?有啊,這個檢查的問題就是若蘇丹紅的辣椒粉這件事是最終我們是發言...我知你有在做嘛,我現在是講將對其他的食品"},{"start":827.758,"end":845.084,"text":"當然都有定期在檢查。一半比較緊張,這1個月來你有擴大去做嗎?委員報告,我們第一階段就是為進口6個月來,可能照出來,這要去做。我跟你說,我本來今天是要送你,想說你最後一半在這裡,我要拿一份報告給你,因為我不能在這裡說。"},{"start":852.398,"end":853.018,"text":"應該在這個時候做筆記的責任。"},{"start":882.319,"end":903.086,"text":"我同意我同意我聽到你如果有什麼檢查的單位有檢查出來有什麼問題你可以上火華上火華我會在這時隨便你上過這兩天如果出來我就隨便你上過因為這事啊檢查要健康啊是品安全這不可以特約可是我完全同意我完全同意謝謝你"},{"start":905.885,"end":924.543,"text":"若有年輕人來請教你時,你有人要面帶照顧,不要再說他外行了。好,我尊重你的建議,就是你的建議啦。要接受啦。當然啦,當然。但是有需要跟他們說。我請教你,你這裏的補回收到,有人跟你報告說有新的補回收到。你現在這裏的補回收到。"},{"start":939.65,"end":945.685,"text":"謝謝謝委員﹚龍介"}]}},{"id":"150417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee9780b1921df90a558ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a621a471a2d4db75405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:38:05 - 11:53:41","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":936,"end_time":"2024-03-26T11:53:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T11:38:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":577,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時38分）謝謝韓院長，我可不可以請陳院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安。"],["李委員彥秀：院長午安，我剛剛看到王委員送你「珍重再見」四個字，我要確認一下，這一屆立委任內，這是我最後一次質詢您嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：520之後不會由您在同樣的位置，跟我一起做答詢的動作嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我對於學術研究一向相當醉心，我也覺得離開學術界有一段時間，所以我還是回去做我的學術研究，對人類更有貢獻也說不定。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝院長。未來我也希望祝福你，我們到不同的單位，但是我相信凡走過必留下痕跡，所有做過的事情，說過的話，人民都在看。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我們就留給歷史評價。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝院長。上個星期五在院會的時候，你提到因為這一次電價上漲的關係，所以有其他委員提到，臺北市的捷運是不是有可以不要漲的空間？你上個星期特別提到，因為捷運的費用是地方政府決定，特別是在北北基都有TPASS，所以要漲價沒有正當性。我關注你上個星期五在院會回答的內容，我沒有說錯，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，最主要的……"],["李委員彥秀：捷運的費率要不要調整是地方政府決定，TPASS我們有補助過，要漲價沒有正當性，這個是你講的嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我說這個正當性的理由是因為這一次的電價調整，讓北捷的經營提高了1%的成本。"],["李委員彥秀：好，到底調整多少percent，我想地方政府到時候會有一個數字，因為今年……"],["陳院長建仁：台電也有……"],["李委員彥秀：4月1日要漲，以臺北市來說，它要負擔13%的電價，整個臺北市營運，事實上整個臺北市捷運是虧損的狀態，28年沒有漲過任何的票價，虧損已達15億元。今天早上我也特別關注到盧秀燕市長也提到，大眾運輸工具的電價可不可以不要調，而且我相信所有有捷運的地方，首長都希望在這一波電價不要調。但是我也關注到昨天在交通委員會，王國材部長也提到，馬上4月1日之後客運就要調漲，不僅如此，下半年可能臺鐵跟高鐵都要漲，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：客運要漲跟那個電費沒有關係，因為臺灣大部分客運都是用燃油。"],["李委員彥秀：我不知道基於什麼原因，但是在民眾的感受上，我提到在民眾感受上，現在百工百業要漲的，都說人事成本在漲，電價也在漲，反正所有的都在漲，可能4月1日我們面臨的狀況是這樣，但是昨天王國材在委員會裡面回答的是，客運要漲，下半年臺鐵跟高鐵也要漲，那我就在想，那就是兩套標準啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：地方的捷運我們認為不能漲，但是我們的雙鐵卻要漲，院長，我要提醒的就是大眾運輸工具是綠色運輸，我們都鼓勵民眾多搭，但是如果中央不能跟地方共體時艱，人民對於這個通膨的感受會非常、非常深刻。不是每個人都有錢去玩股票，今天股票又在漲，股票漲到2萬點，跟大多數臺灣人沒有太多的關係。但這個漲幅未來對人民特別是領死薪水的民眾來說，是很痛苦的，因為買什麼都在漲。所以，院長，我們能不能有機會共體時艱，大眾運輸工具包括雙鐵不要漲，至少兩年不要漲？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想臺鐵之所以要漲價，跟電費的增加一點都沒有關係，最主要的是臺鐵最近變成了公司，公司化，然後臺鐵是28年來為了要配合……"],["李委員彥秀：那高鐵呢？"],["陳院長建仁：高鐵是一個……我想高鐵會不會漲價，我不曉得王部長給你的理由是什麼，但是就我所知，臺鐵……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只要提醒你，民眾看到的是結果，不管你說的理由是什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是在民眾感受上，他就會是因為電價漲的原因，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：那我們現在在這裡講不是這個原因……"],["李委員彥秀：雖然我們鼓勵民眾多搭乘大眾運輸工具，但是我覺得在百工百業都醞釀要漲價的狀況之下，我覺得要去思考，我覺得你應該跟院裡說，到520之前您都是院長，我覺得這一波是不是要漲，要思考清楚，如果連政府在高鐵、臺鐵都帶動漲的話，你更不要去講，王美花說我們要去看有沒有誰隨便亂漲，那個都是說假的。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以答應你一件事情，就是TPASS的部分一定不會漲，那TPASS在臺灣有3億次的使用，然後它是大部分通勤、通學甚至觀光旅客……"],["李委員彥秀：但是院長，我要提醒電價一漲，所有的成本都在漲，所以捷運的電價也要漲。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，TPASS不漲。"],["李委員彥秀：成本增加嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS有350萬人使用喔。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要跟你提的，捷運的成本也增加嘛，我不知道臺鐵跟高鐵，當然它的用電量也會增加，所以我才提醒你，……"],["陳院長建仁：所以TPASS不漲啊。"],["李委員彥秀：你要不要保證，去跟王國材部長溝通，就是我們的雙鐵不要在這一波帶動漲？"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS本來就包括了臺鐵的運輸啊，對不對？您知道嘛，也包括了捷運，所以我們TPASS不漲，TPASS不會漲。"],["李委員彥秀：但是其他的……"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS就cover了……"],["李委員彥秀：那就乾脆都不要漲。"],["陳院長建仁：絕大部分……"],["李委員彥秀：都不要漲。院長，因為我時間有限，我還是提醒，王國材說下半年會討論漲幅，而且那個漲幅的金額都已經在媒體上看到了，你不要跟我講只有TPASS不漲，你要是不漲的話，就乾脆全部都不要漲，這個我提醒院長要注意。","院長，第二件事情，你知道電價費率審議會一年開幾次嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：電價？"],["李委員彥秀：電價審議委員會。"],["陳院長建仁：兩次。"],["李委員彥秀：兩次嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：兩次，對，3月和9月。"],["李委員彥秀：3月和9月。那你知道今年年底台電的虧損數字大概達到多少嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：要看看政府有沒有撥補，如果政府有撥補1,000億的時候，那它的虧損就可以減少。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有，不管有沒有撥補，就是它本身的虧損，你知道數字嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：到目前為止它的虧損的話……"],["李委員彥秀：到年底。"],["陳院長建仁：差不多到五千多億。"],["李委員彥秀：五千多億。我今天也關注到，在媒體上你說這次電價沒有漲到足，9月份還有一次電價審議委員會，還會再漲嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["李委員彥秀：確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但這是我個人的看法。在臺灣電價的調整，3月、9月就是要開電價審議委員會，那我們電價審議委員會還是要開，但是會不會漲，這個就是電價審議委員會來看。但是我個人的估算，因為去年還有前年，我們每年都只漲一次。"],["李委員彥秀：院長也知道這一次漲了很多，百工百業，那個物價通膨的體感、人民的感受度是很痛的。"],["陳院長建仁：跟去年一樣，大概11%。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有可能3年不漲？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我沒有辦法幫電價審議委員會作答。"],["李委員彥秀：兩年還是一年不漲？"],["陳院長建仁：不，這個不符合機制，這個機制就是由電價審議會決定電價。"],["李委員彥秀：我的感受，這幾天民眾所感受到的，百工百業好像都要漲，昨天從媒體上看到臭豆腐……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：臭豆腐一盤也要漲到100塊啦！所以我覺得是這樣，王美花昨天講要去看看有沒有誰隨便亂漲，這個機制他能夠有多少的掌控度，其實我有很多問號。但是我們手邊有很多工具，包括物價稽查小組，我覺得要立刻啟動……"],["陳院長建仁：有，本來我們就有在開。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我覺得也需要關注，但是昨天有人講，所有的成本都在漲，叫我不要漲，叫我關門嗎？我覺得漲幅的幅度這一次是非常大，人民感受是非常深的。我想後續勞工是生活得非常辛苦，在過去8年蔡英文執政任內貧富差距越來越大，我們7年的……"],["陳院長建仁：吉尼指數不是這樣的。"],["李委員彥秀：總薪資是倒退的。經濟成長率好，但是大家看到的數字……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我說吉尼指數……"],["李委員彥秀：人民感受上是不一樣的。"],["陳院長建仁：你說貧富差距，我們的貧富差距不是你想的這樣。我們看吉尼指數，你知道吉尼指數嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你520卸任之後，有機會多到基層走一走，你就知道……"],["陳院長建仁：有，我很多……基層走走。"],["李委員彥秀：領死薪水的感受度是怎麼樣！上一次你問柯志恩說上兩萬點，高不高興？那一天我問主計長，他說：身為國家大掌櫃，我很高興稅收多，但是我不高興，因為我沒玩股票。院長，我要提醒你，臺灣大多數的人其實都沒有玩股票，股票四成是外資，台積電有七成是外資，所以股票上兩萬多點，大多數臺灣民眾沒有玩股票，他是沒有感受的，因為臺灣很多人都還是領那一份死薪水，如何讓經濟整個產業結構好轉才是正道。我還是要回過頭問今天……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下物價的部分，好不好？物價部分，電費影響的部分不多，大部分主要是，我們現在物價影響比較大的像是燃油、燃氣、燃煤……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我知道你要講什麼，國際燃料的物價……"],["陳院長建仁：還有國際貨物，對……"],["李委員彥秀：其實已經調整回來。但是今天我就是要提醒院長，520之後拜託你到基層走一走，你就會看到百工百業都在漲，他也是不得不漲的狀態，但是人民卻過得非常辛苦……"],["陳院長建仁：那是因為大宗貨物也在漲。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，520之後你有更多時間，你去貼近人民，就知道我們在講的是什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：我一向很貼近人民。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。我接下來還是要問你，因為你過去擔任過衛生署署長，所以你一定知道醫院的困境是什麼？在這一次漲幅當中，過去3年電價平均漲幅從111年是8.4%，到11%及今年的11%，3年加總的漲幅是三成左右。醫療院所實際電價漲幅，111年是15%、112年是17%、113年14%，3年加總起來達到46%，所以它不可能是王美花所講的：有一些產業如果減少用電，我們可以調幅減半。你非常清楚，醫療院所不太可能來省電，因為所有醫療器材、冷氣、感染間的溫濕度控管都必須是長時間運作，這點我想你非常清楚。所以這一塊我最近就聽到，包括這次國發會核定的醫療服務成本總額也規定這次的漲幅只能有3.075%。如果電價再漲，在總額負擔裡面有辦法承受這些電價嗎？這是我要提的第一個問題。你瞭解，因為成本就是這麼多，它總額就只能成長3%左右，裡面又含了人事費用，又含了醫材、藥品的費用，電價也包含在裡面，所以我實在不認為醫療院所能夠承擔那麼多的電價調整幅度。這是我的第一個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對於你的第一個問題，46%是對的，但是有一個很重要的重點，就是電費占它營運成本的百分之多少？我跟委員報告，在醫學中心、這些大型醫院是占它營運成本的0.5%到1%，在地區醫院、這些小型醫院是占2%到3%，所以你看看，46%乘上0.5%到1%，它增加的幅度是多少？所以要看它在營運成本的占比啦！這個很重要。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要提的就是說，整個電價漲，藥品可能也會漲，醫療成本也在漲，因為現在人事費用我們也希望調整，它就是一個……"],["陳院長建仁：你是要把所有的東西都納進來講醫療院所的成本，那當然可以啊！包括……"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長，我才提醒你……"],["陳院長建仁：但是不是電費，不是電費，我只是要……"],["李委員彥秀：我善意地提醒，電價在漲，因為所有的醫療成本其實都包含這些東西，包括藥品……"],["陳院長建仁：但是它占0.5%啊！占它營運成本的0.5%啊！"],["李委員彥秀：但是院長，我要提醒你，裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人事費用、醫材，這些都包含在裡面，我們這次核定的醫療服務成本只有讓它漲3.075%，所以院長，我要提醒，因為我剩下的時間不多。我知道上個星期醫療團體也上來跟行政院和衛福部陳情，現在衛福部或院長的態度到底是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我的態度就是……"],["李委員彥秀：對於醫療院所的電價漲幅要用什麼機制去處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來瞭解電價占它整個營運成本的百分比是多少，然後來看它……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有可能補貼？"],["陳院長建仁：那就要看它的占比多不多，就好像剛才講的北捷，如果它只占營運成本的1%，那……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你能不能好好地去研議補貼？因為我不希望電價漲幅吃掉其他人事費用或是藥品費用，導致藥價黑洞越來越大。"],["陳院長建仁：電價漲幅影響很小，它只占0.5%到1%，我剛才已經講了，占比很低嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，基層醫療院所……"],["陳院長建仁：占比很低！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，基層醫療院所我想部長非常清楚，好好地去做一些評估啦！好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來評估。"],["主席：謝謝李委員彥秀質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第9位謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.560343750000001,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.37784375,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.81971875,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.26221875,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.42659375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.72534375,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.06284375,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.885343750000004,"end":51.820343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.820343750000006,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.135343750000004,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.15159375,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.00721875,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.35721875,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.28784375000001,"end":112.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.05971875,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.18534375,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.18034375,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.56346875,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.44471875000002,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.29221875000002,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.42596875,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.65721875,"end":178.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.71096875,"end":194.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.06534375,"end":185.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.12846875000002,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.97096875000003,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.11846875,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.87534375,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.29284375,"end":217.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.97159375,"end":219.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.81096875,"end":220.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.12721875000003,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.79784375000003,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.28721875000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.31221875000003,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.20221875000001,"end":229.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.02034375000002,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.03721875000002,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.44221875000002,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.21346875,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.60971875,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.51971875,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.66096875,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.87909375000004,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.72221875,"end":278.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.78909375,"end":280.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.48909375,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.25471875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.08971875000003,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.95846875,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.08909375,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.54409375,"end":312.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.29034375000003,"end":316.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.70721875000004,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.54659375,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.27159375,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.60909375,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.62096875000003,"end":329.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.38034375,"end":334.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.18534375,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.72096875,"end":337.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.75471875,"end":336.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.99096875000004,"end":340.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.80471875,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.92284375,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.97721875,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.20471875000004,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.73909375,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.46034375000005,"end":362.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.52284375000005,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.06221875,"end":367.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.13346875,"end":378.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.25909375000003,"end":378.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.36409375000005,"end":381.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.39784375000005,"end":380.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.52409375,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.19909375000003,"end":399.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.86409375000005,"end":393.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.88409375000003,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.59221875000003,"end":406.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.79471875,"end":405.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.17846875000004,"end":407.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.80284375,"end":409.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.45221875000004,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.32534375,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.34221875000003,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.42659375000005,"end":414.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.51096875,"end":414.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.00409375000004,"end":435.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.65471875000003,"end":437.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.44784375,"end":440.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.79784375,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.19846875,"end":441.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.24471875,"end":441.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.56534375,"end":442.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.78034375000004,"end":449.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.76659375,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.24659375000005,"end":460.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.75659375000004,"end":462.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.47784375000003,"end":462.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.36784375,"end":464.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.36346875000004,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.54909375000005,"end":470.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.48471875,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.65284375000005,"end":477.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.26846875,"end":478.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.31471875000005,"end":479.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.09096875000006,"end":499.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.08784375000005,"end":505.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.38659375000003,"end":505.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.09534375000004,"end":515.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.38534375,"end":515.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.95034375,"end":516.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.9797187500001,"end":518.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.2747187500001,"end":520.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.2153437500001,"end":523.7803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.94909375,"end":525.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.0290937500001,"end":525.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.48034375,"end":528.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.3872187500001,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.6609687499999,"end":533.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.63534375,"end":543.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.84971875,"end":539.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.62534375,"end":556.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.27721875,"end":569.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.40346875,"end":559.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.52971875,"end":562.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.0009687500001,"end":589.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.8059687500001,"end":575.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.87346875,"end":575.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.9072187500001,"end":576.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.1940937500001,"end":576.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.2109687500001,"end":576.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.27846875,"end":576.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.7509687500001,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.00409375,"end":577.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.1728437500001,"end":577.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.4597187500001,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.70284375,"end":588.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.0234687500001,"end":589.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.36909375,"end":597.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.43596875,"end":600.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.05096875,"end":616.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.1015937500001,"end":601.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.60784375,"end":605.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.55659375,"end":605.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5815937500001,"end":609.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.9809687500001,"end":624.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.94596875,"end":646.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.01534375,"end":640.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.5547187500001,"end":647.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.6428437500001,"end":658.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.7678437500001,"end":659.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.77596875,"end":659.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.79284375,"end":660.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.97846875,"end":682.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.8347187500001,"end":664.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.0959687500001,"end":664.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.3640937499999,"end":679.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.15221875,"end":683.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.13096875,"end":708.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.5278437500001,"end":726.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.61784375,"end":727.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.9509687500001,"end":729.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.6553437500002,"end":738.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.9365937500002,"end":759.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.6928437500001,"end":760.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.7053437500001,"end":763.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.9578437499999,"end":779.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.68721875,"end":769.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.61784375,"end":783.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.4653437500001,"end":785.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.95034375,"end":787.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.9753437500001,"end":789.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":789.9665937500001,"end":791.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.98721875,"end":800.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.83409375,"end":818.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":818.55284375,"end":826.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.24409375,"end":823.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.33659375,"end":834.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.5503437500001,"end":835.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.17471875,"end":835.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.19159375,"end":835.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.2253437500001,"end":835.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.56284375,"end":837.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.9128437500001,"end":843.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":842.7178437500002,"end":849.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.97909375,"end":848.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.0334687500001,"end":848.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.09221875,"end":854.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.3490937500001,"end":855.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":855.84659375,"end":856.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.4540937500001,"end":856.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.84221875,"end":858.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.94346875,"end":858.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.1372187500001,"end":871.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.1984687500001,"end":872.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.14346875,"end":882.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":883.3022187500001,"end":884.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":883.99409375,"end":887.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.64346875,"end":895.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.7265937500001,"end":896.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.02596875,"end":896.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.9878437500001,"end":904.1765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.21471875,"end":912.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.9990937500002,"end":906.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":908.71596875,"end":918.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.4028437500001,"end":917.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":918.9422187500002,"end":924.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.49409375,"end":925.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.27846875,"end":929.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":932.74596875,"end":935.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.96909375,"end":936.3572187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.591,"end":22.385,"text":"謝謝彥秀質詢。謝謝韓院長。我可不可以請陳院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。六人早午安。"},{"start":23.53,"end":51.046,"text":"委員長午安,我剛剛看到王委員送你珍重再見,我要確認一下這一屆立委屆次任內這是我最後一次跟您質詢嗎?是。520之後不會有您在同樣的位置跟我一起做打詢的動作嗎?我對於學術研究影響相當的最新,那我現在也覺得離開學術界有一段時間我還是回去做我的學術研究,對人類更有貢獻也說不定。"},{"start":52.146,"end":80.736,"text":"謝謝院長我想反走過必留下痕跡說過的話做過的事情未來我希望也祝福你我們到不同的單位但是我相信所有做過的事情說過的話我想人民都在看我們就留給歷史來評價好謝謝院長院長上個星期我在院會的時候你提到說因為這一次電價漲的關係所以有其他委員提到說捷運臺北市的捷運是不是要有可以不要漲的空間"},{"start":81.516,"end":110.671,"text":"那你上個星期在特別提到說因為捷運費用是地方政府來做決定那特別是在北北七都有TPAS所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是上個星期五我關注你在院會回答的我沒有說錯嘛對不對對最主要的捷運的費率要不要調整是地方政府決定那TPAS他有這個我們有補助過所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是你講的嘛"},{"start":111.785,"end":123.391,"text":"對,我是以最主要的理由說這個正當性的理由是因為這一次的電價調整對於台電,對於北捷的這個經營的部分多了1%的成本的增加。"},{"start":124.224,"end":149.996,"text":"好,這個到底調整多少百分比,我想地方政府到最後會有一個數字經驗,因為今年4月1號要漲,因為以台北市來說它要負擔13%的電價,整個台北市,因為事實上整個台北市政府捷運事實上它是虧損的狀態,它28年沒有漲過任何的票價,但是它虧損也達15億元,今天早上我也特別關注到"},{"start":151.076,"end":176.425,"text":"吳修映市長也提到說大宗運輸工具可不可以電價不要調而且我相信所有有捷運的地方首長都希望在這一波電價不要調但是我也關注到在昨天在交委會在交通委員會部門的時候王國才部長也提到說馬上4月1號之後我們客運就要調漲不僅如此"},{"start":178.47,"end":182.287,"text":"下半年我們可能雙鐵、台鐵跟高鐵都要漲。"},{"start":184.005,"end":188.528,"text":"市長,客運要漲,跟電費沒有關係,因為台灣大部分的客運都是用燃油。"},{"start":214.325,"end":216.186,"text":"議員長我要提醒的是說大眾運輸工具他是綠色運輸"},{"start":236.277,"end":259.633,"text":"我們都鼓勵民眾多搭但是如果我們不能中央跟地方共體時間人民對於這個通膨的感受度會非常非常深刻不是每個人都有錢去玩股票大多數的民眾今天股票又在漲股票漲到2萬點跟大多數台灣人沒有太多的關係"},{"start":261.681,"end":261.861,"text":"委員﹚李彥秀"},{"start":282.898,"end":282.998,"text":"臺鐵是一個"},{"start":303.203,"end":322.791,"text":"高鐵會漲價不會漲價我不曉得這一個王部長他給你的這個理由是什麼但是就我所知但是院長我只要提醒你民眾看到的是一個結果不管你說的理由是什麼但是在民眾感受上他就會是因為電價漲的原因"},{"start":323.851,"end":342.859,"text":"所以雖然我們鼓勵民眾多搭乘大眾運輸工具,但是我覺得在百工百業都醞釀要漲的狀況之下,我覺得要去思考。我說的你應該跟,因為你到520之前您都是院長。我覺得這一波是不是要漲?"},{"start":344.039,"end":361.51,"text":"我覺得要去思考清楚,如果連政府在高鐵雙軌都帶動漲的話那你更不要去講王美花講說我們要去看有沒有誰隨便亂漲那個都是說假的我可以答應你一件事情就是說這個TPAS的部分一定不會漲"},{"start":362.551,"end":363.813,"text":"議員長,但是我要提醒,變價一漲,所有的成本都在漲,所以結業的變價也要漲。"},{"start":379.392,"end":379.452,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":399.955,"end":408.602,"text":"臨時提案本來就包括了臺鐵的運輸啊,對不對,您知道嘛。包括了捷運嘛。所以我們臨時提案不漲。臨時提案不會漲。"},{"start":411.365,"end":433.505,"text":"但是其他都不要講好院長因為我時間有限我還是提醒王國才說下半年會討論漲幅而且那個漲幅的金額都已經在媒體上看到了你不要跟我講說只有TPAS不漲你要不漲的話就乾脆全部都不要漲這個我提醒院長要去注意那院長第二件事情你知道電價費率審議會一年開幾次嗎電價"},{"start":438.207,"end":462.846,"text":"電價審議委員會兩次齁兩次對那三月跟九月三月跟九月好那你知道在今年年底我們的臺電的虧損到達數字大概是多少嗎要看看政府有沒有撥補如果政府有撥補一千億的時候呢那他的虧損呢就可以減少虧損不管有沒有撥補就是他本身的虧損你知道數字嗎到目前為止他的虧損的話只會到五千多億嘛"},{"start":464.666,"end":473.137,"text":"我今天也關注到在媒體上你說這一次電價沒有漲到足。那9月份還有一次電價審議委員會還會再漲嗎?不會"},{"start":479.509,"end":504.787,"text":"確定嗎?但是這是我個人的看法但是電價在臺灣的電價的調整就是3月9月就是要開電價審議委員會那我們會有電價審議委員會還是要開但是會不會漲這個就是電價審議委員會來看但是我個人的估算因為我們去年還有前年我們每年都只漲一次"},{"start":506.598,"end":530.007,"text":"那院長你也知道這一次漲了很多百公百業大家那個物價通膨的感受度是很痛的有沒有可能三年不漲這個我沒有辦法幫這個電價審議委員會去做答案啦兩年還是一年不漲這個不符合機制嘛這個機制就是由電價審議會來決定電價"},{"start":533.803,"end":556.579,"text":"委員長,我的感受,這幾天民眾所感受到的百公百業好像都要漲,昨天從媒體上看到臭豆腐,臭豆腐一盤也要漲到一百塊了。所以我覺得是這樣,王美花昨天講說我要去看看有沒有誰隨便亂漲,其實這個機制它能夠有多少的掌控度,其實我有很多的問號,但是我覺得我們手邊有很多的工具。"},{"start":557.355,"end":581.636,"text":"包括物價的稽查小組我覺得要立刻去啟動這個我覺得也是需要去關注但是昨天有人講說所有成本都在漲叫我不要漲叫我關門嗎所以我覺得漲幅的幅度這一次是非常大人民感受是非常深的所以這個也是我覺得在後續勞工是生活得非常辛苦"},{"start":582.156,"end":599.695,"text":"在過去8年蔡英文執政任內,貧富差距是越來越大,我們7年的總薪資是倒退的。院長,經濟成長率好,但是大家看到的數字,人民感受上是不一樣的。我說貧富差距,我們的貧富差距不是你想的這樣。"},{"start":601.107,"end":604.85,"text":"我沒有看經濟指數嗎?你知道經濟指數嗎?經濟指數?我很多經濟指數我懂我懂"},{"start":625.084,"end":626.404,"text":"我講一下物價的部分好不好?"},{"start":648.288,"end":677.187,"text":"務價的部分吼,電費影響的部分不多啦。大部分的主要呢,我們現在物價影響比較大的像是燃油、燃氣、燃煤。院長,院長我知道你要講什麼。國際燃料的物價其實已經調整回來。但是院長,我今天我就是要提醒你,520之後拜託你到七層走一走,你就會看到百工百業都在漲,它也不得不漲的狀態,但是人民卻過得非常的辛苦。"},{"start":677.267,"end":705.22,"text":"沒關係,不過李秀你有更多的時間,你去貼近人民你就知道我們在講的是什麼。我一向很貼近人民。好,謝謝。院長,我接下來還是要問你,因為你過去是衛生署的署長,所以你也擔任過,所以你一定知道醫院的困境是什麼。在這一次漲幅當中,過去我們三年,電價平均漲幅從111年是8.4,11%到今年的11%,總共三年加總我們是漲幅了33成左右。"},{"start":705.78,"end":725.415,"text":"在醫療院所實際的電價111年它是15%、112年是7%、113年是14%它三年加總起來它達到46%所以它不可能是王美花所講的說有一些產業啊如果你減少用電啊我們可以調幅減半"},{"start":726.667,"end":743.028,"text":"你非常清楚醫療院所他不再可能電價來審因為所有醫療的器材冷氣感染間的那個濕度溫度控管都必須是長時間這樣子的運作我想你非常清楚"},{"start":743.889,"end":743.989,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":764.991,"end":791.379,"text":"有辦法在總額負擔裡面有辦法承受這些電價嗎?這個是我第一個我要提的問題。你了解我,因為成本就是這麼多,它總額就只能成長3%左右。裡面又含了人事費用,又含了醫材、藥品的費用,那電價也包含在裡面。所以我實在不認為醫療院所能夠承擔那麼多的電價的調整幅度。這個是第一個我的問題。"},{"start":793.489,"end":821.273,"text":"對於你第一個問題你這個46%是對的但是有一個很重要的重點就是電費是佔它營運成本的百分之多少那我跟委員報告在醫學中心這些大型醫院佔它營運成本的0.5到1%那在地區醫院這小型醫院是佔2到3%所以你看看46%乘上0.5到1%它增加的幅度是多少"},{"start":823.914,"end":849.329,"text":"院長,我要提的就是說,整個電價漲,藥品可能也會漲,醫療成本也在漲,因為我們現在人事費用,我們也希望調整,但是他就是一個大賊。你是要把所有的東西都要講進來,講醫療院所的這個成本,那當然可以啊。所以院長我才提醒你啊,我善意的提醒啊,電價在漲,因為他就是,因為"},{"start":850.029,"end":850.25,"text":"但是他賺0.5%呢?"},{"start":859.188,"end":882.581,"text":"但是院長我要提醒裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人士費用、醫材都包含在裡面。我們這一次我們核定醫療服務成本我們只有讓他漲3年075%所以院長我要提醒因為我時間剩下的不多我們現在因為上個星期我知道醫療團體也上來跟行政院來陳情跟衛福部陳情那現在我們問衛福部或院長你的態度到底是什麼?"},{"start":884.423,"end":888.307,"text":"對於電價的漲幅我們用什麼樣的機制去處理?對於醫療院所?有沒有可能補貼?"},{"start":903.203,"end":903.583,"text":"謝謝李委員、彥秀質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":932.813,"end":935.14,"text":"接下來我們請登記第九位"}]}},{"id":"150416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eebc81e25705e946f78ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a638043a962e3fa4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:20:56 - 11:37:55","影片長度":"00:16:59","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":1019,"end_time":"2024-03-26T11:37:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T11:20:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時21分）主席，我請院長以及衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員世堅：院長午安，部長午安。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我們國家的醫療品質跟收費，我如果用4個字來形容，就叫做價廉物美，那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來醫護人員他們的犧牲，比方說，大家很清楚護理人員他們的工作繁重、工作環境有待改善，而且他們的收入不高，加上在疫情期間種種的危險加給一下子給、一下子要回，我覺得這些某種程度上對他們造成人格的污衊，所以你看，最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失。這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失，造成醫病比不夠，所以我們國內各大中小醫院平均大概關床率關了兩成，我們有這些醫院、有這些病床，但是沒有這麼多護理人員，還好天佑臺灣，這兩年來沒有再發生重大的流行病。那我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分，也就是說，基層醫療診所長年來因為我們的健保給付是總額給付，那總額給付的結果，這四大項分類是醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院及基層醫療診所，結果基層醫療診所因為他們成本過高，他們個人要負擔這些房租、所有護理人員、藥師以及他們購買藥品的藥價，當然會遠比大型的醫學中心要高很多，沒有 discount嘛！結果他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下，又沒有業外收入，大型醫院可以有很多業外收入啊！有租金的收入、停車場的收入，還有其他美食街、便利商店這些收入，可是他們沒有嘛！在這樣的情況下，我舉去年為例好了，去年基層醫療診所，尤其是在我們臺北地區因為人口最稠密，在去年五、六月的時候COVID-19有一部分復發的情況，所以醫療的耗用增加，點值已經跌到0.9以下，那去年底又來一波流感，得了流感大家去的最多的當然就是直接去基層醫療診所，在這兩個因素之下，臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0. 81。所以院長、部長，我在這邊要求，是不是要撥補預算給基層醫療診所，讓他們達到至少符合他們的成本，浮動的醫療點值要在0.9，不足的部分由行政院、由衛福部來撥補預算。部長、院長，你們的看法呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於去年因為解封之後，把COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來，所以會造成整個點值下降，因為它的使用就增加了，這個部分我們已經有方案在做處理，第一季跟第二季，基層的部分其實已經有相當的補助，第三季現在正在結算當中，也應該會跟第一季、第二季同樣的方法去補助。"],["王委員世堅：部長，你也承認有這個情況嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有。"],["王委員世堅：院長，你們兩位都是相關這一部分的專業人才，所以你們知道有這個情況，「毛蟹沒腳也走不了」，非得要有醫療診所幫我們全國的醫療來降低整體……我們小病看小醫院，大病看大醫院，透過轉診，這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以去年的點值不到0.9是OK的。"],["王委員世堅：如果讓他們連成本都不到，如果年年虧損、失血的話，我們失去了這些基層醫療診所，那我們全國的醫療將會崩潰。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["王委員世堅：院長，剛才部長講得很清楚，他知道有這個情況。"],["陳院長建仁：對，而且這個情況就是……他講得很好，就是因為在去年還有COVID的給付，本來以前都是用特別條例的錢，現在把它進入健保的給付，健保裡面當然醫療照顧就增加，所以那個點值會下降，所以我們去年從第一季、第二季到第三季都會調整，讓它的點值能夠到0.9，這個點值是因為我們用總額預算的關係，才會有點值的調動，它這個目的很多，不能夠單單從點值就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好，我們要看看這個點值下降的理由，如果是COVID……"],["王委員世堅：院長，這就是我跟你提的，我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員世堅：道德風險的評估，這都應當，但是當我們在醫療的這一部分，我們健保收入的部分在開源節流之外，我認為如果差額300億、500億，對我們整體一年國家的支出2兆9,000億而言，那不是什麼大錢嘛，所以我們應該來撥補、幫助基層醫療診所，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果說一定金額以上的話，財務上面負擔還是可能有問題。"],["王委員世堅：部長你請回，時間暫停。"],["陳院長建仁：委員要不要喝點水？"],["王委員世堅：主席，我可不可以喝水？"],["陳院長建仁：可以，那邊是你的水。"],["主席：沒有問題，請。"],["陳院長建仁：慢慢來，不要緊。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我再來要跟您就教幾項問題，希望你能夠積極的伸出援手。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員世堅：第一點就是社子島的開發，社子島現在的慘狀，社子島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久，這個地方如果大家有去看的話，那根本像個鬼島，沒有衛生設施，連基本的診所都沒有，也沒有衛生下水道，到處都是違章工廠林立，說實在話，我們公共建設在那邊是近乎零的公共建設，現在社子島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果，市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來，在內政部審查，現在用的叫做生態社子島開發，這能夠最符合環保人士，也符合全體市民，大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式。現在唯一在反對的，97.5%的島民都支持，絕大多數的市民也都支持，少數、極少數社子島的居民，2.5%的居民反對的原因竟然是說開發會圖利當地的居民，我覺得這是非常離譜的！如果這叫做圖利的話，院長，那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦！過去開闢馬路都圖利兩旁的地主囉？如果所有的開發都叫圖利，過去70年政府都在圖利民間，不是這樣嗎？既然圖利了70年的所有民間，為什麼獨漏社子島？所以圖利兩個字實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由。","還有交通，現在內政部在審的是我們再來想想看，是不是社子島要給個輕軌？院長，其實社子島的交通在整個社子島生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦！如果額外要做輕軌，那麼就是在政府區段徵收收回的那六成土地裡面就有預留了嘛！周遭社子島出來整個大社子的道路，其實市政府交通局跟新北市府都有共同研商過。所以，院長，是不是您能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快儘速審核通過，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。在去年11月30日的時候，臺北市政府還有公文給我們內政部，現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通，我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力，讓社子島儘早開發，我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。還有我們臺北市現在面臨的，因為疫情的關係，現在臺北市正在推動的北環段、東環段、南環段的捷運遇到一個問題，就是這三年來工料都大幅上漲，因為疫情的關係嘛！工料大幅上漲的結果，計算下來，這三條線大概差額440億元，440億元對臺北市政府而言，說實在話，他們負擔不起，所以請院長是不是針對臺北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額？"],["陳院長建仁：有關於這三個環線的經費，因為物價上漲這個不可歸責的理由而上漲的部分，我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分一起分攤，這個絕對沒有問題。但是如果是可以歸責於地方政府的部分……"],["王委員世堅：因為發包的延誤，對，當然，區分之後……"],["陳院長建仁：他們現在在送修正計畫。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我希望除了那個比例之外，是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們……"],["王委員世堅：臺北市身為首都，它是各項全國在世界評比裡面的一個指標嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員世堅：更何況這二、三十年來大家很清楚，捷運的開發不但便捷了我們市民快速的通行，而且大幅度降低了交通的傷亡。尤其在臺北市，藉由捷運的開發又可以開拓新社區、新市鎮，來大幅度降低我們臺北市的高房價，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：因為軌道的補助，我們有按照財政劃分的情況做，我們會按照這樣一個劃分的方法，中央應該要補的，我們一定是全力來補足。"],["王委員世堅：院長，前幾年，說實在話，在補足各縣市預算當中，臺北市確實分配到的比較少，當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長疏於跟中央溝通、爭取啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！他只要有提出申請，我們就會認真來辦理，但是因為申請是地方政府要提出來，計畫要提出來。"],["王委員世堅：還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的我們議會助理的聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資，其實不只臺北市碰到，全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到，這部分助理的薪資已經22年沒有調整了，院長，你知道22年來物價是如何的波動、生活費如何的上漲？所以3萬元這樣子的低薪實在話是有點不人道。所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上幫忙？在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們跟地方政府一起討論，因為付出這個錢的是地方政府，但是中央跟地方一起討論。其實這個案子不是只有臺北市議會而已，很多議會都在講。"],["王委員世堅：對，22縣市。"],["陳院長建仁：所有的縣市，我們會跟地方政府一起討論一個最好的方案，這已經講很久了。"],["王委員世堅：院長，還有一項，最近大家一直在討論ETF，光00940兩天就募集1,780億，過去0050至少奮鬥21年，現在才3,000億的規模，00940吸引游資、熱錢，兩天就1,780億。院長，我講的是一種現象，我認為政府要顧好這個名稱，不能讓這些財團濫用。像元大設的00940，去年還有中信的00934，群益的00937，我直接唸出名字，他們都直接在名字上加上大收益、高股息、高息動能，然後有一大堆名詞，什麼神級的高股息。我的意思是說，用這樣子的名字騙人。過去米粉不是米做的，政府就要它改叫炊粉，對小老百姓是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員世堅：對這些自吹自擂的財團也應該有所約束，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會請金管會對ETF這個事情強化審查、落實平準金相關的揭露，還有廣告的部分……"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們會努力做。"],["王委員世堅：主席，是不是時間暫停？因為只剩11秒。","院長，這一次是你在本院最後一天備詢，其實我很肯定你這一整年的作為，因為你在行政院團隊沒有拉幫結派，沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭。最後這11秒鐘，我要送給陳院長一份離別的禮物，一本聖經外加4個字──珍重再見。"],["主席：謝謝王委員世堅的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第8位李委員彥秀質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.70721875,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.88846875,"end":21.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.94721875,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.347843750000003,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.15784375,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.29596875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.603468750000005,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.51471875,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.34971875,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.17221875,"end":43.821593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.58909375,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.65596875,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.65159375,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.469718750000006,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.228468750000005,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.27034375,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.98721875000001,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.68721875,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.31971875,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.47534375000001,"end":73.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.11221875000001,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.64346875000001,"end":79.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.81596875000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.55409375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.40909375000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.15909375000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.72784375,"end":104.89221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.95534375000001,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.66284375000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.17159375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.33159375,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.60534375,"end":132.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.80346875,"end":135.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.00971875000002,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.43159375000002,"end":144.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.25721875000002,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.03721875000002,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.75846875000002,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.82159375,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.00721875000002,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.17346875,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.92846875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.80971875,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.80534375000002,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.64471875,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.58096875,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.36096875,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.27471875,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.60346875000002,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.50596875000002,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.14284375000003,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.16346875000002,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.12471875,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.62221875,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.45721875,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.40159375000002,"end":222.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.05096875,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.73409375000003,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.67471875,"end":228.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.00784375,"end":235.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.38221875000002,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.23784375000002,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.52034375000002,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.35971875,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.13596875000002,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.97534375,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.62471875000003,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.46409375000002,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.36221875,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.67409375,"end":267.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.66846875000005,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.46971875,"end":275.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.51534375,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.84409375,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.26534375,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.20096875,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.79534375000003,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.61784375,"end":298.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.12346875000003,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.06346875,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.86909375000005,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.53971875,"end":309.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.67034375000003,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.45034375,"end":330.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.38471875000005,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.68409375000005,"end":333.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.98346875000004,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.31221875,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.53159375,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.26909375,"end":339.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.84659375,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.02346875,"end":353.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.73096875000005,"end":359.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.35034375000004,"end":381.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.32159375000003,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.44284375,"end":390.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.87284375,"end":397.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.88534375,"end":392.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.87221875,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.30221875,"end":398.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.67346875000004,"end":400.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.11596875000004,"end":419.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.00846875,"end":416.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.53096875,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.74471875,"end":428.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.40284375000005,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.59971875,"end":438.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.11846875000003,"end":439.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.67534375,"end":439.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.56971875000005,"end":441.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.49346875000003,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.26471875000004,"end":448.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.33221875000004,"end":448.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.41159375,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.48284375000003,"end":457.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.45721875000004,"end":458.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.01409375000003,"end":459.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.66784375000003,"end":461.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.59596875000005,"end":465.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.61221875,"end":466.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.59096875000006,"end":468.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.48096875000005,"end":468.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.56534375,"end":468.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.59909375,"end":468.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.66659375,"end":471.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.65346875000006,"end":476.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.53034375000004,"end":476.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.28971875,"end":480.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.71534375000005,"end":482.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.73596875000004,"end":484.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.88346875,"end":486.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.68471875000006,"end":489.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.72659375,"end":496.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.61159375000005,"end":506.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.61846875000003,"end":514.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.9209687499999,"end":528.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.9778437500001,"end":537.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.69784375,"end":541.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.56221875,"end":548.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.39659375,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.0959687500001,"end":556.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.8047187500001,"end":557.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.6484687500001,"end":560.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.65221875,"end":564.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.29721875,"end":564.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.5503437500001,"end":586.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.6059687500001,"end":588.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.4453437500001,"end":589.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.77846875,"end":590.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.7234687499999,"end":622.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.6172187500001,"end":645.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.88784375,"end":658.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.23596875,"end":661.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.76721875,"end":667.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.4709687500001,"end":668.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.65221875,"end":686.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.4553437500001,"end":696.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.47909375,"end":710.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.75971875,"end":728.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.1940937500001,"end":711.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.78846875,"end":717.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.15034375,"end":721.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.87909375,"end":729.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.16596875,"end":751.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.0403437500001,"end":750.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.79534375,"end":768.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.96159375,"end":769.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.2947187500001,"end":785.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.72284375,"end":784.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.6003437500001,"end":794.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":794.94471875,"end":836.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.3728437500001,"end":836.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.7609687500001,"end":857.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.3247187500001,"end":847.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":848.7253437500001,"end":849.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":849.0290937500001,"end":850.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":857.9053437500002,"end":860.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.90909375,"end":863.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":864.16596875,"end":871.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.1997187500001,"end":864.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":872.5022187500001,"end":877.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":877.5815937500001,"end":889.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":890.0522187500001,"end":909.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":910.3528437500001,"end":911.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.25971875,"end":913.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":913.9640937500001,"end":915.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":916.14096875,"end":917.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":917.86221875,"end":927.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.81846875,"end":931.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":931.4297187500001,"end":936.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":936.2053437500001,"end":951.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":949.51971875,"end":952.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":955.15596875,"end":955.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":955.96596875,"end":959.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":959.9990937500002,"end":960.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":961.72034375,"end":967.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":967.77846875,"end":968.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":969.16221875,"end":970.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":971.2209687500001,"end":973.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":973.3134687500001,"end":975.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":975.7603437500002,"end":979.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":979.89471875,"end":983.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.3334687500001,"end":980.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":983.96159375,"end":987.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":987.48846875,"end":988.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":988.70346875,"end":992.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":992.36534375,"end":993.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":993.76596875,"end":994.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":994.64346875,"end":996.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":997.32659375,"end":998.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":999.2165937500001,"end":999.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1016.54721875,"end":1017.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.2178437500002,"end":1018.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1018.97721875,"end":1019.6015937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.666,"end":35.837,"text":"主席我請院長以及衛福部薛部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢王偉武安院長武安部長武安謝謝主席"},{"start":41.243,"end":60.028,"text":"我們國家的醫療品質跟收費我如果用四個字來形容叫做價廉物美那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來我們醫護人員他們的犧牲"},{"start":66.792,"end":90.523,"text":"比方說護理人員大家很清楚他們工作繁重工作環境有待改善而且他們的收入不高加上在疫情期間種種這個危險加急那一下子給一下子要回這些對他們我覺得造成某種程度上人格的污衊所以你看"},{"start":91.483,"end":104.731,"text":"最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失那這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失我們醫病比"},{"start":106.001,"end":108.903,"text":"我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分"},{"start":135.998,"end":136.038,"text":"王世堅"},{"start":151.921,"end":151.941,"text":"結果﹖"},{"start":176.667,"end":200.962,"text":"他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下他們又沒有業外收入大型醫院很多可以業外收入啊有租金的收入、停車場收入其他這個美食街啊這個便利商店這些收入他們沒有嘛所以這樣的情況下我舉去年為例好了去年"},{"start":202.185,"end":224.94,"text":"基層醫療診所尤其我們臺北區我們臺北地區因為我們人口最稠密去年5、6月的時候COVID-19有一部分誤發的情況所以醫療的耗用增加那點子啊已經跌到0.9以下"},{"start":225.799,"end":248.082,"text":"那去年底又來一波流感那流感大家去的最多的當然直接就是去基層醫療診所這兩個因素之下臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0.81啦所以院長部長我在這邊要求就是說是不是要撥補"},{"start":250.657,"end":251.938,"text":"那個部長院長你們看法呢?"},{"start":271.329,"end":288.598,"text":"有關於去年因為這個解封之後那把這個COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來所以會造成這個整個點子下降因為它的使用就增加了"},{"start":289.258,"end":311.718,"text":"那這一個部分的話我們已經有方案在做處理。那第一季跟第二季基層的部分的話其實已經有相當的一個補助。那第三季現在正在結算當中那也應該會跟第一季第二季同樣的方法去補助。你們兩位都是相關這一部分的專業人才,所以你們知道有這個情況。"},{"start":314.44,"end":338.601,"text":"所以一定要有醫療診所幫我們整體全國的醫療來降低整體我們小病看小醫院嘛大病看大醫院透過轉診這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷所以去年的點子補到0.9是OK的那麼如果年年虧損失血的話我們失去了這些基層醫療診所"},{"start":339.702,"end":339.962,"text":"那現在把它進入健保﹖"},{"start":359.104,"end":359.424,"text":"﹚王世堅"},{"start":381.48,"end":395.726,"text":"不能夠單單從點子就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好,我們要看看他這個點子下降的理由,如果是COVID...我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因,道德風險的評估這都應當。"},{"start":398.388,"end":414.325,"text":"但是當我們在醫療的這一部分我們健保收入的部分開源節流之外我認為如果差額開300億500億對我們整體一年國家的支出兩兆9000億而言那不是什麼大錢嗎所以我們應該來撥補來幫助"},{"start":417.688,"end":417.868,"text":"沒有問題,請。"},{"start":459.128,"end":469.45,"text":"我再來要跟您就教幾項問題希望你能夠積極的伸出援手第一點就是社址島的開發社址島現在的產狀社址島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久"},{"start":477.832,"end":501.466,"text":"這個地方如果大家有去看的話那根本像個鬼島沒有衛生設施連個基本的診所都沒有那也沒有衛生下水道那到處都是這個違章工廠林立實在說實在話我們公共建設在那邊近乎零的公共建設"},{"start":502.706,"end":528.471,"text":"現在社址島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來在內政部審查現在用的叫做生態社址島開發這能夠最符合環保人士也符合全體市民大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式"},{"start":529.431,"end":537.657,"text":"那現在唯一在反對97.5%的島民都支持,絕大多數的市民也都支持。"},{"start":538.855,"end":559.748,"text":"少數及少數社址島的居民2.5%的居民他們反對的原因他們竟然是說開發會圖利他們當地的居民我覺得這是非常離譜的如果這叫做圖利的話院長那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦"},{"start":560.949,"end":587.228,"text":"過去開闢馬路那都圖立兩旁的地主囉那如果所有的開發都叫圖立過去70年政府都在圖立民間不是這樣嗎那既然圖立了70年的所有民間為什麼獨落社址島所以圖立兩個字這實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由還有交通現在內政部在審的是說我們再來想想看是不是社址島要給個輕軌那個"},{"start":591.473,"end":604.852,"text":"議員長,其實設施島的交通在整個設施島生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦。如果額外要做輕軌,那麼就是在政府區段徵收所謂的那六層土地裡面就有預留了嘛。"},{"start":605.373,"end":607.415,"text":"您能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快進促審核通過好不好?"},{"start":623.466,"end":645.325,"text":"在去年的11月30號的時候,臺北市政府還有公文給我們的這個內政部。那現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通。那我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力,讓社子島盡早開發。我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"},{"start":645.905,"end":660.697,"text":"好謝謝還有我們台北市現在面臨的因為疫情的關係現在台北市正在推動的北環段東環段南環段的捷運遇到一個問題就是這三年來啊供料都大幅上漲"},{"start":661.823,"end":684.777,"text":"疫情的關係嗎?那供料大幅上漲的結果計算下來這三條線大概差額440億元。那麼440億元對台北市政府而言說實在話他們負擔不起。所以請院長是不是針對台北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額?"},{"start":687.599,"end":709.441,"text":"這個有關於這三個環線的這個經費因為物價上漲這個不可規則的這個理由而上漲的這個部分我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分來一起分攤這個絕對沒有問題但是如果是可以規則於地方政府的部分"},{"start":709.981,"end":723.7,"text":"我發發言務對當然當然區分之後那院長我希望除了那個比例以外是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎臺北市身為首都他是各項"},{"start":724.548,"end":724.668,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":752.415,"end":769.138,"text":"議員長"},{"start":769.522,"end":784.222,"text":"前幾年說實在話在補足各縣市預算當中臺北市確實分配到的比較少當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長他也疏於跟中央溝通爭取"},{"start":785.027,"end":810.343,"text":"只要有提出申請,我們就會認真來辦理。但是因為這個行政是地方政府要提出來,要計為它要提出來。還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的,就是我們議會助理這個聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資。那其實不只臺北市碰到,全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到。"},{"start":812.925,"end":816.587,"text":"所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上也幫忙在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙"},{"start":836.857,"end":856.437,"text":"我們跟地方政府一起來討論,因為這錢要付出去是地方政府嘛齁。但是我們中央跟地方一起來討論,其實這個案子齁,很多議員,不是只有台北市議員而已。所以說,所有的縣市我們會跟大家地方政府一起來討論,一個最好的方案。這已經有講很久了。"},{"start":859.038,"end":865.001,"text":"議長還有幾項就是最近最近大家一直在炒熱這個ETF光這個00940兩天就1700億院長過去0050他們至少奮鬥21年現在才3000億的規模"},{"start":879.206,"end":899.257,"text":"這個00940啊吸引油脂熱錢兩天就1780億院長我在講的是一種這個現象我認為這個名稱我們政府要看顧好不能讓這些財團像元大設的這00940像先前去年還有中信00934群立00937所有他們這一些"},{"start":904.38,"end":930.505,"text":"這個都用所謂的我念他的名字直接在名字上面叫做大收益高股息高息動能然後一大堆名詞什麼神級的高股息我一直都用這樣子的名字來騙人過去政府米粉不是米做的就要他叫炊粉對小老百姓是這樣"},{"start":931.567,"end":951.076,"text":"那結果對這些自吹自擂的這個部分應該有所約束我們會請金管會來對於ETF的這一個事情做好強化他的那個審查的部分還有落實這一個評準金的這一個相關的揭露的部分還有廣告的部分這個我們會努力來做主席是不是時間暫停因為只剩11秒那個那個"},{"start":961.806,"end":985.46,"text":"院長這次是你在我們大院最後一天的備詢那其實我對你這一整年來的作為我很肯定就是說你在行政院的團隊你沒有拉幫結派沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭所以院長我在最後這11秒鐘我要送給"},{"start":988.855,"end":998.156,"text":"陳院長一份離別的禮物一本聖經一本聖經那外加四個字珍重再見"},{"start":1018.848,"end":1019.394,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee2d2c8aab4adbe6d08ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a64ae445465c1280e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:04:40 - 11:20:46","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":966,"end_time":"2024-03-26T11:20:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T11:04:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我們有請院長、勞動部許部長及衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：請陳院長、勞動部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員早。"],["吳委員春城：院長好，院長你辛苦了！"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["吳委員春城：今天看你更有笑容，今天是最後一場的總質詢，你辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以很高興能夠接受委員質詢。"],["吳委員春城：也是最重要的一場，希望你能夠以大格局、大胸懷，助臺灣最後一臂之力，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我來努力。"],["吳委員春城：1970年時臺灣65歲以上的人占2.9%，平均壽命六十幾歲，60歲以後的人生就叫餘生，隨便晃一晃就掛掉了，就在這樣前提下定義了銀髮論述，我們的銀髮觀。現在我們邁向了2040年，65歲以上人口是占總人口的30.1%，10倍，平均壽命八十幾，那60歲退休以後還有很多人會有30年，這叫做第三人生，這就是我所建構的叫做壯世代的主張。但是我們現在還繼續在採用舊的思維來應付、迎向這些人，如果這不改變，未來臺灣會躺成一片，高齡者成為臥床族，我們現在臥床平均超過8年，還有少子化造成大量的躺平族，這是一個系統性的問題，但是我們現在都用枝枝節節的方式在補破洞。我們用2.9%的銀髮政策在處理30%的壯世代、長壽社會的來臨，現在社福預算已經達到8,000億，難道非要破萬億不行嗎？這個看起來指日可待！請問院長，20年後臺灣一半的人口都要超過60歲，如果對高齡政策都沒有改變的話，那我們的社福預算要多少才夠？請問院長，你也是這方面的專家。"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員對於我們少子化的問題很重視，而且分析的很透徹，你剛才的分析就很棒，我想未來怎麼樣讓壯世代能夠自立自足，而且共榮永續，然後對社會繼續有貢獻，這是很重要的……"],["吳委員春城：非常重要的事情。"],["陳院長建仁：而且不只是臺灣喔，全世界……"],["吳委員春城：這是全球的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：德國也是一樣。"],["吳委員春城：但是臺灣是全世界最嚴重的，跟南韓，我們在2055年會超越日本，成為比日本還老的國家。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["吳委員春城：接下來後面還有很多問題要請教院長，我跟各部會最近大概都有溝通，包括跟許部長也有溝通，我發現每一個部會的政策都在歧視高齡者，但是他們都無可奈何，眾口均指向衛福部的銀髮思維，好像這沒辦法，這都是上面交代的，所謂上面，我不曉得上面是誰，上面是院長你嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是我啦！"],["吳委員春城：也不是你，那是蔡總統嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實像委員講的這些，在有些法規上，我們確實是把老人……"],["吳委員春城：這是一個系統性的問題，所以呢……"],["陳院長建仁：對！"],["吳委員春城：院長，臺灣進入長壽社會，我也看出來我們傾全力都在打造60歲以前的人生，這個社會非常的繁榮，但是只要推開60歲這扇大門一看，你走出去是一片荒涼，沒有路、沒有橋、沒有水、沒有電，像沙漠一樣，這邊已經有多少人？這邊已經有600萬人，60歲以上的在「沐沐泅」啦，各憑本事、自生自滅，如果是6個人要在沙漠上，那是他個人的事情，但如果600萬人在沙漠裡面，請問是誰的責任？"],["陳院長建仁：當然政府應該要一起努力……"],["吳委員春城：政府的責任！"],["陳院長建仁：還有跟企業界，整個社會……"],["吳委員春城：對，政府的責任。感謝院長在3月19號我的財政組總質詢當中承諾了建立壯世代金融行動方案，而且要求上市櫃公司提出高齡社會永續報告，希望這個能追蹤、落實。同時在那時候我有問陳院長，對於2023年行政院提出的超高齡社會對策中、有哪一些是你所需求的？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想可能我們現在考慮到60歲以上壯世代，實際上他們不管是在社會參與、在產業的參與或健康生活上都能夠越來越健康，然後越來越有活力，所以長照政策實際上也要注意到健康者怎麼樣……"],["吳委員春城：2023年看起來大家都還是圍繞在這幾個項目，醫療、養生、照護等這些層面，但是不可能30年整天在搞這個啦，他要有完整的第三人生。長壽時代即將來臨，我們社會普遍歧視老人，如果用大數據輸入老人、銀髮、樂齡等這些稱呼，依附過來都是負面的字眼，所以它已經被高度污名化了，大家都很怕跟老扯上關係，我辦了很多活動，大家都叫我不要用銀髮、樂齡等名稱，不然就不參加了，所以我們跟勞動部現在都要談壯世代。","OK，這個是壯世代運動，在去年我還是民間身分的時候就到立法院來倡議，也獲得跨黨派的共同支持，這個沒有黨派的觀念，這是全民社會的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員春城：我們現在的銀髮政策只重視安老扶弱，所以有800萬的壯世代如何讓他們壯起來很重要，我上次用資產的高低及現金流的高低把壯世代分成四大類型，上次我在財政組總質詢時所提出的是針對上面這兩個，也就是安穩型及貢獻型，如何來活化他們的資產，今天我要跟勞動部和衛福部請教如何針對活躍型及社福扶持型的因應之道。","首先，我非常肯定勞動部最近非常積極地推出了「55Plus壯世代就業促進措施」及「5050壯世代就業網絡合作計畫」，勞動部高舉壯世代的旗幟，新價值壯世代成為主流，許部長，你說比起中高齡你更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼，請問你覺得壯世代對號召再就業有什麼助益？有什麼幫助？"],["許部長銘春：我想壯世代可以讓整個高齡的人會覺得自己其實是個非常有用、有價值、對社會還有貢獻的人，所以我是覺得壯世代確實不管在經驗或各方面的專業，其實都是剛好到最好的時候，所以我覺得這個部分應該讓壯世代的勞動力能夠延續，或者說再重返我們的職場，尤其在面對缺工、缺才這麼嚴重的年代，我覺得這個部分我們一定要努力來推動。"],["吳委員春城：對，我很感謝勞動部看到了這一點，針對高齡社會都不是只有照顧、照護、長照，其實勞動是第三人生很重要的價值，因為勞動會帶來你的意義感、社交、財務的支撐等各方面，所以是很重要的解方，也很感謝，但是這一點勞動部還要繼續努力，把它進行全面的規劃。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員春城：但是更根本的問題是我們僵化的退休體制，造成壯世代進退兩難，有些人想要提早退休，其實50歲退休也不錯，但有些人想要延後退休，有人退休後想要再回來，但是我們現在的退休體制綁手綁腳，很不方便，特別是勞基法第五十四條規定，雇主得強制年滿65歲勞工退休。其實這個方面也值得探討，像日本的高齡者雇用安定法現在已經通過工作延長到70歲，而且現在日本也有很多企業，有四成以上的企業都僱用75歲以上的人；甚至YKK集團內部也規定，員工可以用正職的身分工作到任何年齡，做到他不想做為止，這樣可以創造政府、企業跟勞方三方面的三贏。最後在這裡我想要跟院長、跟勞動部提出請求，第一點是檢討僵化的退休體制，還給人民工作的自由權；第二個是獎勵壯世代重返職場，能夠落實全面的法制化。關於這一點，請問院長跟許部長，可不可以給我們800萬的壯世代一個承諾？"],["陳院長建仁：我想讓退休的體制更有彈性，讓壯世代能夠繼續做他喜歡的工作，我覺得這是我們應該要努力的，然後這樣的話，有一些法制上的東西確實要修正，譬如說像剛才提到的日本，他為了鼓勵大家都能夠做到70歲，在法制上做了一個改變，這部分我們會請勞動部這邊來研議以後，送到大院這邊來看看怎麼樣做更好的修正，讓所有的壯世代都能夠對社會繼續有貢獻，然後也讓他的生命更有意義。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝院長。接下來我要請教衛福部薛部長，最近您辛苦了，一個單一的案件就搞得全國、舉國天翻地覆，你也說社安網有缺陷，請問部長，我們的社福體系缺陷在哪裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是整個社福體系大致上可能都有一些小的問題，但是今天這個案子是一個收出養的個案，收出養的個案在這個過程當中，的確從這個案子我們發現了一些比較重大的問題……"],["吳委員春城：薛部長，那只是一個表象，應該講這是一個系統性的問題，整個系統性的人口都出問題，2030年我們有一半的人口要超過50歲，再10年，可以用現在的社福政策來照顧一半的人口嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這中間必須要經過調整，因為不管是在人力部分的話，也會出現極大的落差。"],["吳委員春城：這是一個大哉問，不過10年也迫在眼前了，所以要加緊腳步。另外請問薛部長，你有沒有注意到民間的浪潮？雖然有時公務繁忙，但也要看看民間的浪潮。現在大家都不喜歡戴上「銀髮」這頂帽子，你有發現嗎？有些餐廳、飯店都不用這個字眼，但是我發現我們的政府政策屢屢出現銀髮產業、銀髮老人科等等用語，什麼東西都僵化不變，所以這部分要改良。其實我知道這是一個很大的系統性的問題，但是不改變這個人設，我們沒有真正的高齡照顧的產業，其他都是補補貼貼，但是要做到這樣，必須要有遠見、有魄力的領導人，翻轉我們現在這種銀髮的人設成為壯世代的人設。最後我要請行政院院長，還有衛福部部長，是不是可以承諾兩點：第一點是檢討長照政策，不只是照顧，更需要照亮；第二點是排除年齡歧視，去除「老人」及「銀髮」的稱呼，可不可以？這個也請問一下部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：有關第二點要去除「老人」的用語，這件事情會有問題，因為我們很多法規都是用「老人」一詞，法律名詞已經定在那個地方……"],["吳委員春城：對，我知道，這個當然不是簡單的事情，但是你不做，這件事影響的層面太大了，影響的層面是整個政府的當機，整個我們未來一半的人口無所適從。","另外，我再問一下院長，明年進入超高齡社會，布局2025年我覺得我們現在的準備是遠遠不足，內閣必須要重新制定世代循環的白皮書，這個涉及到每一個部會，總統跟行政院長要勇於打破框架，勞動部要釋放勞動力，教育部要建立終身教育的體制，經濟部要做世代融合的經濟循環，衛福部要去除銀髮思維的政策，數發部要科技平權世代共享，國發會要有以人口學為本的全面性的國家計畫。","最後，我也希望院長你用一生的功力，任第三人生國家政策院的院長，你如果能夠繼續綜合，因為這件事情太難了，每一個部會都說它沒有能力，這個是一定要超越部會的，就要拜託院長繼續，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員春城的質詢，謝謝吳委員春城，謝謝陳院長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第7號王委員世堅質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.894718750000001,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.109718750000003,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.340968750000002,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.399093750000002,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.508468750000002,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.17909375,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.410968750000002,"end":25.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.47846875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.74846875,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.722218750000003,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.80221875,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.548468750000005,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.00784375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.024093750000006,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.45846875,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.76971875,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.49909375,"end":61.101593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.79346875,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.30346875000001,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.37096875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.01471875,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.62596875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.54909375000001,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.18159375,"end":100.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.82096875,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.65034375,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.81471875000001,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.72971875,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.80909375,"end":130.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.25096875,"end":143.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.85659375,"end":145.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.32471875000002,"end":147.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.70409375,"end":147.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.41284375,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.39971875,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.39534375000002,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.84659375,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.24721875,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.29721875,"end":165.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.55346875,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.19034375,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.96221875,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.04659375,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.18159375000002,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.88596875000002,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.97034375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.13909375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.62971875000002,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.02596875,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.11034375,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.49846875,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.47284375,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.06346875,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.13096875000002,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.88159375,"end":209.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.17221875,"end":203.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.93909375,"end":210.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.98534375000003,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.74409375000002,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.30846875,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.05909375000002,"end":235.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.36534375000002,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.00659375,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.71534375000002,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.94221875000002,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.86971875,"end":259.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.51784375,"end":262.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.55096875000004,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.60971875,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.38534375,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.92534375,"end":273.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.89534375,"end":279.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.12221875,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.88846875,"end":291.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.40284375000005,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.49534375,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.66909375,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.76159375000003,"end":327.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.31721875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.97471875,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.39659375,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.44721875000005,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.85221875,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.93659375000004,"end":357.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.98721875,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.21659375,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.22409375,"end":418.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.25784375,"end":358.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.46784375000004,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.13846875,"end":429.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.70221875000004,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.49096875000004,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.13409375000003,"end":495.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.27846875000006,"end":496.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.88159375000004,"end":498.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.45096875,"end":499.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.63221875000005,"end":500.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.03284375000004,"end":502.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.92284375,"end":504.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.15034375000005,"end":506.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.70284375000006,"end":508.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.57596875,"end":510.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.14096875,"end":512.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.6597187500001,"end":514.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.98846875,"end":517.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.75596875,"end":519.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.88221875,"end":523.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.42596875,"end":525.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.22721875,"end":526.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.0034687500001,"end":539.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.1384687500001,"end":530.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.03971875,"end":583.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.0690937500001,"end":566.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.51159375,"end":569.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.3447187500001,"end":590.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.04409375,"end":639.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.44596875,"end":611.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.86346875,"end":646.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.3390937500001,"end":650.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.5790937500001,"end":655.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":655.3547187500001,"end":657.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":657.0759687500001,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":666.28971875,"end":667.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":667.85909375,"end":668.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.97284375,"end":670.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.3272187500002,"end":670.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.89659375,"end":711.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.76409375,"end":683.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.02534375,"end":720.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.2109687500001,"end":711.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":721.25159375,"end":727.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":727.42784375,"end":730.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.93784375,"end":734.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.62909375,"end":735.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.18596875,"end":737.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.1772187500001,"end":740.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.7084687500001,"end":743.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.30284375,"end":748.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.38221875,"end":756.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":756.14909375,"end":778.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.79534375,"end":788.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":787.0303437500002,"end":800.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":800.9353437500001,"end":806.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.73596875,"end":830.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.3484687500002,"end":858.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.95159375,"end":861.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":862.44471875,"end":862.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":863.2209687500001,"end":870.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.6459687500001,"end":870.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":870.76409375,"end":871.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.03409375,"end":880.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.0578437500001,"end":882.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":881.0747187500001,"end":881.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":882.54284375,"end":882.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.99846875,"end":883.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":883.3528437500001,"end":929.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.40346875,"end":883.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.26409375,"end":884.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":955.00409375,"end":957.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":958.07534375,"end":961.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":963.7453437500001,"end":965.38221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.912,"end":7.932,"text":"吳委員長"},{"start":23.511,"end":49.839,"text":"院長好。院長你辛苦了。今天看你更有笑容。今天是最後一場的總質詢。很高興能夠接受委員質詢。那也是最重要的一場。希望你能夠以大格局、大胸懷助台灣最後一臂之力。好不好?好。我要努力。"},{"start":52.697,"end":76.008,"text":"1970年台灣65歲上的人佔2.9%那平均餘命平均壽命60幾歲然後60以後的人生叫做餘生就是隨便晃著晃著就掛掉了那就在這樣的一個前提下定立的叫做引法論述我們的引法官"},{"start":77.448,"end":100.293,"text":"現在我們邁向的2040年65歲上來的人要佔人口的30.1%10倍平均壽命80幾歲那60退休以後還有很多人會有30年這叫做第三人生那這就是我所建構的叫壯世代的主張"},{"start":101.854,"end":129.995,"text":"但是我們現在還繼續在採用舊的思維來應付面相的影響。如果這不改變,未來台灣會躺成一片。高齡者成為臥床族,我們現在臥床超過8年。還有這個少子化造成大量的躺平族。這是一個系統性的問題,但是我們現在都用枝枝節節的方式在捕破洞。"},{"start":131.294,"end":157.464,"text":"我們用2.9%的銀髮政策在處理30%的壯世代長壽社會的來臨。所以我們現在的社福預算已經達到了8千億。難道非要破萬億不行嗎?這個看起來其實可帶。請問院長,20年後,臺灣一半的人口都要超過60歲。"},{"start":159.369,"end":165.323,"text":"如果對高齡兒政策都沒有改變的話那我們的社福預算要多少才夠請問院長"},{"start":168.523,"end":194.649,"text":"你也是專門專家我想委員對於這個我們少子化的問題很重視而且分析得很透徹你剛才的分析就很棒那我想未來怎麼樣讓這個壯世代能夠有自立自主而且共榮永續然後對社會有繼續有貢獻我想這是很重要的而且不只是台灣這是全球的問題"},{"start":196.409,"end":224.371,"text":"但是台灣是全世界最嚴重的,跟南韓。我們在2055年會超越日本,成為全世界比日本還老的國家。後面還有很多要問院長。在我跟各部會最近大概都有溝通,我發現每一個部會的政策都在歧視高齡者,但是他們都無可奈何。"},{"start":226.701,"end":245.122,"text":"眾口都指向衛福部的引法思維。好像這沒辦法,這都是上面交代。上面的,我不曉得上面是誰,上面是院長你嗎?不是我。也不是你,然後是蔡總統嗎?確實像委員講的這一些,有一些法規上我們確實是把...這是一個系統性的問題。對。"},{"start":246.323,"end":260.534,"text":"所以這個院長這個台灣進入長壽社會那我看出來我們整個請全力都在打造60歲以前的人生這個社會非常的繁榮但是你只要推開60歲這扇大門一看"},{"start":263.616,"end":265.077,"text":"當然政府應該要一起努力,還有跟企業界"},{"start":294.074,"end":310.388,"text":"政府的責任。但是感謝院長在3月19日的時候我在財政的總詢詢當中院長也承諾了建立壯世代金融行動方案而且要求上市櫃公司"},{"start":312.336,"end":325.851,"text":"提出高齡社會的永續報告希望這個會追蹤落實同時陳院長在那時候我有問你對於2023年行政院提出的超高齡社會對策"},{"start":328.679,"end":350.592,"text":"請問院長你這些有哪一些是你所需求的?我想可能我們現在考慮到60歲以上的壯士代實際上他能夠不管是在社會參與在產業的參與或者是在健康生活上都能夠越來越健康然後越來越有活力"},{"start":351.352,"end":377.782,"text":"所以很多的長照政策實際上也要注意到這個健康者。現在2023年看起來大家都還是圍繞在這幾個項目嘛這個醫療、養生、照顧的這一些層面但是不可能30年整天在搞這個啦他要有完整的第三人生所以呢為這個長壽時代來臨我們社會普遍歧視老人"},{"start":378.652,"end":396.184,"text":"所以你用大數據輸入老人、銀髮、勒領這些稱呼依附過來都是負面的字眼所以他已經是一個被高度汙名化的大家都很怕被跟老扯上關係我辦了很多活動他說你不要用銀髮用勒領不然我就不要"},{"start":396.644,"end":396.804,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":412.83,"end":413.07,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":429.784,"end":457.375,"text":"那上次我把用這個資產的高低還有現金流的高低可以把這個壯士貸分成四大類型那上次呢我們在財政的委員會提出的是針對上面這兩個這個叫安穩型還有貢獻型的如何活化他們的資產那今天呢我要跟勞動部還有衛福部來請教如何針對活躍化還有這個社福的因應之道"},{"start":458.753,"end":481.048,"text":"首先要非常肯定勞動部最近非常積極地推出了55Plus壯世代就業促進措施還有5050壯世代就業網路的合作計畫積極地推動但是這個部長勞動部高舉壯世代的旗幟新價值讓壯世代稱為主流"},{"start":484.239,"end":498.844,"text":"徐部長,你說比起中高二零,你更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼,然後你覺得壯世代對號召再就業有什麼助益?有什麼幫助?我想壯世代可以讓整個這個"},{"start":501.072,"end":501.252,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":527.095,"end":527.295,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":554.395,"end":554.815,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":575.393,"end":595.971,"text":"那那個造成了壯實在進退兩難啊,有些人想要提早退休,其實50歲退休也不錯,不是一定要,那有些人想要延後退休,退休,有些人退休想要再回來,但是我們的退休體制現在綁手綁腳,很不方便。那造成了很多啦,特別是勞基法54條,僱主的強制年滿65歲勞工退休啦,"},{"start":599.594,"end":628.542,"text":"其實在這一個方面也值得來探討。像日本這個高齡雇用安定法裡面現在已經通過這個工作要延長到70歲。而且現在有很多的日本很多企業4成以上的企業都雇用75歲以上的人。甚至YKK這個也內部的規定就員工可以工作到任何的聯盟政治的做到他不想做為止。"},{"start":629.602,"end":635.806,"text":"此事可創造政府、企業、勞資各方面的三領。最後我想跟院長、勞動部提出請求。"},{"start":650.646,"end":666.444,"text":"第一點是檢討僵化的退休體制,還給人民工作的自由權。第二個是獎勵壯士在重返職場,能夠落實全面的法治化。這一點請問院長跟許部長可不可以給我們這個"},{"start":668.266,"end":687.848,"text":"我想讓這個退休的體制更有彈性讓鑽石代能夠繼續工作做他喜歡的工作我覺得這個是我們應該要努力的然後這樣的話有一些法制上的東西確實要修正譬如說像剛才提到的日本他是鼓勵"},{"start":688.508,"end":688.528,"text":"謝謝院長。"},{"start":713.431,"end":734.605,"text":"接下來我要請教衛福部薛部長最近您辛苦了一個單一的案件搞了全國舉國天翻地覆你也說社安網有缺陷請問部長我們的社福體系缺陷在哪裡"},{"start":738.621,"end":748.673,"text":"應該是整個的社會體系的話大致上可能都有一些小的問題但是今天這個案子是一個收、出、養的個案"},{"start":749.494,"end":777.728,"text":"收出養的個案在這個過程當中,的確從這個案子我們發現了一些比較重大的問題。這個不會是,那個只是一個表象,應該講的是一個系統性的問題,整個系統性的人口都出問題。2030年我們有一半人口要超過50歲在10年,可以用現在的社福的政策來照顧一半的人口嗎?"},{"start":779.334,"end":805.581,"text":"當然這中間必須要經過調整因為不管是在人力的部分的話也會出現這個很大的落差這個是一個大災問的問題不過10年也迫在眼前了所以要加緊腳步另外請問薛部長你有沒有注意到民間的浪潮有時候公務房房要看看民間浪潮現在大家"},{"start":807.742,"end":807.982,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":825.622,"end":826.823,"text":"最後我要請院長、行政院"},{"start":851.707,"end":880.138,"text":"還有衛福部部長是不是可以承諾兩點第一點是檢討長照政策不只是照顧更需要照料然後第二點是排除年齡歧視去除老人及淫法的稱呼可不可以這個也請問一下部長第二個部分那個老人這件事情的話會有問題因為我們很多的法規都是"},{"start":881.204,"end":907.315,"text":"用法律名詞已經變在那個地方。我知道,這個當然不是簡單的事情,但是你不做,這個影響層面太大了。這個影響的層面是整個的政府的當機,整個的我們未來一半人口無所適從。所以我最後的一頁我要來問一下部長,那個院長,明年進入超高齡社會,布局2025年,我覺得我們現在是有點不足,"},{"start":908.14,"end":929.421,"text":"必須要重新制定內閣世代循環的白皮書這個每一個部會總統跟行政院長要勇於打破框架勞動部要釋放勞動力教育部要終身教育的體制經濟部要做世代融合經濟的循環衛福部要去除引髮思維的政策速發部要科技平權世代共享"},{"start":955.089,"end":955.269,"text":"臨時主席"}]}},{"id":"150414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee7228642423d5278f8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a652976c251cd3d18d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:48:49 - 11:04:36","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-03-26T11:04:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T10:48:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時48分）謝謝主席，有請院長還有衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢、請衛福部。"],["陳院長建仁：劉委員早。"],["劉委員建國：院長早，辛苦了。這可能是最後一次在院會跟你探討國家的事情，我還是肯定院長這段時間的辛苦跟努力。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：這種辛苦跟努力還是為了要給下一個團隊打下更好的基礎，照顧更多的臺灣人民，所以院長的決策還有整體的方向跟好的方法，絕對攸關福國利民，是一個非常重要的事情。我今天因為時間真的很有限15分鐘，所以針對幾個面向要特別來跟院長、部長提醒跟討論。第一個，當然是長照基金，臺灣明年就邁入超高齡，我個人看法可能是今年年底或明年初就要到了，因為在7年前曾經講是2026，而3年前就講再提早1年，我覺得還會再提更早一點，這是我個人的淺見啦！","事實上，臺灣有22個縣市，現在已經有6個縣市早就進到超高齡社會，有嘉義、臺北、南投、基隆、屏東，還有我的母縣雲林，已經占了四分之一的縣市，這速度真的會越來越快，而且人口結構的快速改變，基本上所有面向通通會變，我在這邊也講了不下N次，從經濟、教育、文化、產業等等，我們看到蔡政府執政之後，也要回推到馬政府時，當時的長照預算每年平均不足50億，我們都講50億，但真的是不足。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["劉委員建國：一路到今年達到八百多億，這是非常恐怖的成長。請部長、院長看這張衛福部106到115年的10年長照推估表，110年支出推估是396.3億，實際上決算是454億，相差57.9億；111年的推估是415.9億，和決算559億又相差了143.1億；112年是428億，和決算679億相差251億。這3年幾乎是百分之一百、兩百在成長的，不曉得我們的因應之道在什麼地方？113年，我們現在的預算是抓828億，實際上最後執行是多少還不知道？但推估是436億，如果照預算去算，誤差將近400億，這推估表是不是要更正了？這是第一點。","第二點，薛部長曾經對外說，長照基金剩餘將近一千多億。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["劉委員建國：主要是房地合一、菸稅、遺產、遺贈，還有所得稅，認為5年內長照基金的財源是沒有問題的，這是部長講的，真的有這麼樂觀嗎？","我簡單講一些背景資料再給院長和部長答復，內政部在111年的12月統計，65歲的失智人口是30.8萬，國發會預估120年，等於不到10年的時間，失智人口會達到46萬，有50%成長，所以未來這個面向的照顧會更多。我們的準總統賴清德特別提出長照3.0，其中針對住宿式機構服務使用者的補助方案，整個預算規模要從78億調高到118億，再增加40億，還有要強化重度失能者的照顧，新增居家、社區晚間到宅照顧，建立24小時重度失能者的支持服務，這可能又需要幾十億的預算規模，而且長照給支付7年都沒檢討，到現在沒提升過，所以3.0的時候勢必要檢討。關於這幾個面向，我想實質上要進入3.0，可能我們明年的長照預算就會破千億、一定會破千億。","院長、部長再看一下，針對過去長照基金的收入來源，112年是七百多億，111年到112年確實也有高達九百多億，如果以我們的長照基金來源預估，也就是推估表，113年如果是776.6億，今年實際上執行數是828億，已經相差51.4億，以此類推，114年、115年、116年各差了兩百多億。不到5年，誠如部長講的，賸餘一千多億元的長照基金就會不足，這是我個人的推估，不曉得院長跟部長怎麼看待這個事情？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請部長來回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，因為我們的支出是根據收入的預算，收入的預算是由財政部給的資料，因為財政部在一些像是房地合一稅、遺產稅等是比較不確定的，所以通常會比較低估，在年度結算時，我們的收入通常比原來收入的預算高很多。目前來講，已經累積到1,500億的基金結餘在那個地方……"],["劉委員建國：對、對、對。從我的簡報第二張表格可以看到，112年你們的結餘是1,072億，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我還是照部長所講的金額去算。"],["薛部長瑞元：以去年整個結餘算起來，現在total差不多是1,500億。"],["劉委員建國：1,500億？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以收入比原來的預算多很多。"],["劉委員建國：如果誠如部長所答復我的，院長就可以看到我們長照基金的支出推估表跟財源收入表，坦白講，這兩張表是假的，差太多了！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒辦法，因為我們支出的預算，只能根據收入的預算來處理……"],["陳院長建仁：因為收入的部分包括贈與稅、菸稅還有房地合一稅，那是浮動的……"],["劉委員建國：沒有錯！"],["陳院長建仁：一般來說，政府在說收入的時候，財政部都會比較保守，就是會說少一點，但實際上會比較多。至於我們的支出，要跟委員報告，重要的是我們要以量入微出的方式來進行我們的長照，但是你說的那些居住型長照等等，就是長照3.0，清德總統未來要推動的，這個我們有估計，實際上到了118年的預算，應該都還不會像委員這個表所提的這個樣子，但是我們當然還是要認真地增加收入，支出也是一定要很審慎地來控制。"],["劉委員建國：我知道院長答復我的一定是朝這樣的方向，在推估、預估時，基本上抓得比較靈活一些，我都可以接受，但是坦白講這些稅在專家學者的看待裡面，他們認為這是機會稅。"],["陳院長建仁：我懂你的意思。"],["劉委員建國：所以它的穩定性，尤其房地合一的稅，因為一直在打房，這兩年可以比較高，明年、後年、大後年，或許會急遽下降也不一定。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會來盤點。"],["劉委員建國：所以我希望可能要有相關的一些應變的措施，因為過去打出所謂的長照就是看得到，找得到、用得到，我們現在更要顧得好，對不對？就是要顧得好，才從2.0變成3.0，相關的預算增加，實際上你的來源、收入穩定還是要更確定才行。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有關支出的部分，委員剛剛提到3.0將來要做的事情也是滿多的，不過有一點會有一點差異，就是我們投入到資源布建的成本會減少，因為差不多都有了。"],["陳院長建仁：要蓋的都蓋好了。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！是啊！請院長跟部長在短時間內，是不是可以再重新盤點一下？包括支出來源預估表、推估表，可能要再詳細地做一些修正，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["劉委員建國：時間的關係，抱歉，不能讓兩位答復很久。","第二個就是百億新藥基金，上屆最後一個會期，我也在這邊特別……"],["陳院長建仁：極力推動。"],["劉委員建國：我也是第一個在本院提出修法的委員，當時院長跟部長都有答復我要一步一步來，我當然可以接受，但是現在已經3月了，今年已經3月了，我知道衛福部今年有成立健康政策與醫療科技評估中心，這個要肯定啦！因為協助健保進行新醫療技術、藥品及醫材給付的審定，但是跟賴副、準總統要建置獨立的百億癌症新藥基金，顯然落差很大，因為我們的目標就是國家的癌症防治計畫，目標是在2031年，讓臺灣癌症死亡人可以減少到三分之一，要達到這個目標，很多的面向必須處理，而這個新藥的百億基金，我覺得是重中之重。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前的作法是在健保的總額預算之內，我們利用公務預算來補助，像去年240億、今年200億，今年的兩百億裡面我們有安排了差不多60億，其中24億左右是做暫時性支付，其他有三十幾億是做新藥的納入，所以現在嚴格來講有60億癌症新藥的錢……"],["劉委員建國：現在有60億，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：今年。"],["劉委員建國：那明年呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：明年我們會來爭取，看看是否能夠繼續有公務預算可以進來。"],["劉委員建國：當時院長跟部長答復我，要從制度面一步一步來，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得在制度面是不是請院長、部長在短時間內可以趕快去確定？不然你今年年底就要準備爭取明年度的預算……"],["陳院長建仁：對，5月……"],["薛部長瑞元：5月我們的概算就要送出去了。"],["劉委員建國：就要處理了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：他們概算送來後，我們這邊會增加。"],["劉委員建國：好啊！OK！但是癌症百億新藥基金到底什麼時候可以成立？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前就是先用這種方式來處理，因為這種方式才能與健保掛勾。跟委員報告，新藥基金並不是所有新藥就統統一直給，是有過渡期的，從暫時性支付到納入健保裡變成常規性給付，再過來就移到總額去，所以是一個階段、一個階段，不然老實講，100億撐不了幾天，癌症藥品就不夠用了。"],["陳院長建仁：這是以暫時性支付為主。"],["劉委員建國：部長的說法我瞭解，但調放基金是應該打拚的目標，這是沒有錯的事，現在所用的方式則是為了支應這段時間，說得粗魯一點，就是讓你可以方便調度，我怎麼會不懂這個意思，但這是院長在院會答復我說要建立的制度，現在在準總統的政策下，健康臺灣論壇已經啟動了，這是他重要的政見之一，現在要成為政策。所以為下一個團隊打下好的基礎還是要靠兩位吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：就機制來說，如果採用健保機制的話是可行的，問題在於如何確保其財源是穩定的。"],["劉委員建國：是不是一個月內給我未來的正確方向與處理方式，還有目標要如何去達成的報告，好不好？謝謝院長、部長。","再來，去年10月在這邊討論到護理人力荒問題，這也是院長任內與部長非常重視、非常絞盡腦汁的事情。當時我在這邊特別提到，要就要全部照顧到，因為這不是大夜班、小夜班的問題，也不能搞成區域醫院與醫學中心彼此對抗！還好，之前的抗爭處理得宜，提出可接受的方案讓大家沒有走上街頭。不過當時我們就特別提到，針對所謂含日班急慢性病床及急診這部分要一併思考，既然對大小夜班有獎勵，為什麼對這些就沒有獎勵？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：這好像在分階級，不對啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，我們目前正在規劃這一塊，已經開始在做討論。我們內部先做討論，先把草案弄出來，然後再跟醫界或其他各界來做討論。"],["劉委員建國：草案什麼時候會出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是上半年會有草案出來……"],["劉委員建國：上半年？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們必須爭取預算，所以上半年應該就會有草案……"],["劉委員建國：院長，我覺得可以加緊腳步。"],["薛部長瑞元：包括預算規模多少……"],["劉委員建國：在這個會期結束前就可以把草案……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們儘量。"],["陳院長建仁：應該是。"],["劉委員建國：應該可以吧，院長？部長說儘量，院長可以說這個會期結束前完成，好不好？謝謝。","最後是有關偏鄉醫療，時間只剩下一分鐘而已，院長跟部長可以看一下。牙痛不是病，病起來要人命！給人民基本醫療─牙醫資源是政府責無旁貸的。監察院在110年8月18日的調查報告中提到，雲林口湖鄉無牙醫診所。同時報告中也提到，雲林縣部分鄉鎮僅有一家牙醫診所，故要求衛福部與雲林縣政府必須檢討。其實不僅雲林如此，112年10月底前，全臺牙醫醫療資源不足的鄉鎮還有153個。再來，弱勢還有身障朋友可能需要牙醫到宅口腔照護或診治，但全國有1萬6,000名牙醫師，卻只有160位投入到宅，不到1%！偏鄉醫療計畫第一期已經結束，請問第二期什麼時候啟動？院長可不可以這邊做具體承諾？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們儘快。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個案子，也就是優化偏鄉醫療計畫第二期已經在行政院，國發會、主計總處大概已經溝通過……"],["劉委員建國：何時可以核定？簡單答復一下。"],["陳院長建仁：最近就會核定。"],["劉委員建國：最近就會核定？請在一個禮拜內核定好嗎，院長？最近一個禮拜差不多，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員建國的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第6位的吳委員春城質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.29659375,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.03471875,"end":4.3678437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.705343750000001,"end":6.7809687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.67909375,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.695343750000003,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.42409375,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.47471875,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.23784375,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.962218750000005,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.45971875,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.986593750000004,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.205343750000004,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.27221875,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.14534375,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.063468750000006,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.66221875000001,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.33284375000001,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.76471875,"end":86.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.12284375,"end":93.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.10909375,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.92721875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.84909375000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.68346875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.33284375000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.88409375,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.27159375000002,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.56096875,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.70846875,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.39159375,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.40409375000002,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.52034375000002,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.41034375,"end":166.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.32971875,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.22284375,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.70721875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.89221875,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.06096875,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.84471875,"end":203.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.20596875,"end":205.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.17596875,"end":208.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.28096875,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.58846875,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.83721875,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.80721875,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.89096875,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.90284375000002,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.69471875000002,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.71971875000003,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.55471875,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.57034375,"end":247.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.92471875,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.52784375000002,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.59096875,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.73846875,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.22346875000002,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.91534375,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.48471875,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.03721875,"end":257.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.94846875,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.92721875,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.85096875,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.10784375000003,"end":270.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.87471875,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.53471875,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.78284375000004,"end":294.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.39409375,"end":298.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.54971875,"end":300.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.97971875,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.37596875,"end":306.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.22346875,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.64471875000004,"end":315.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.23909375,"end":322.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.68096875000003,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":330.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.32534375,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.91971875,"end":342.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.53471875,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.77909375,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.86346875000004,"end":352.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.51721875000004,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.60034375000004,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.36346875000004,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.08034375,"end":359.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.13096875,"end":359.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.43471875,"end":359.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.45159375000003,"end":359.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.31221875,"end":361.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.58221875000004,"end":365.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.25221875,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.36971875,"end":372.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.71534375000005,"end":375.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.29721875,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.05659375000005,"end":376.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.90034375000005,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.98471875,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.05221875,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.66784375000003,"end":434.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.72971875,"end":388.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.91096875000005,"end":390.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.03659375,"end":396.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.44409375000004,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.49034375,"end":446.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.78846875000005,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.28596875000005,"end":463.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.60596875000005,"end":452.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.04471875,"end":452.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.34846875000005,"end":452.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.95846875,"end":483.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.09346875000006,"end":464.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.60096875000005,"end":484.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.91721875,"end":485.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.18721875000006,"end":494.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.83971875000003,"end":500.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.13409375000003,"end":502.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.38284375,"end":502.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.58534375000005,"end":543.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.95971875000004,"end":510.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.0522187500001,"end":512.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.75034375,"end":527.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.6084687499999,"end":553.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.07096875,"end":554.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.8134687500001,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.57284375,"end":562.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.0147187499999,"end":565.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.45721875,"end":570.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.3003437500001,"end":574.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.2490937499999,"end":577.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.38784375,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.42346875,"end":608.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.24034375,"end":604.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.3915937500001,"end":617.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.2765937500001,"end":619.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.7234687499999,"end":618.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.15784375,"end":624.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":624.06846875,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":633.67034375,"end":634.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.49721875,"end":636.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.9440937500001,"end":638.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.86784375,"end":643.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.1753437500001,"end":647.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.39034375,"end":643.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.9722187500001,"end":651.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.96721875,"end":654.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":655.28721875,"end":655.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.58659375,"end":656.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.6540937500001,"end":658.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.97471875,"end":657.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.16034375,"end":657.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.1772187500001,"end":657.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.4597187500001,"end":659.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.56096875,"end":675.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.7734687500001,"end":686.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.4553437500001,"end":689.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.16784375,"end":690.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.5390937500001,"end":693.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.26034375,"end":692.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":692.32784375,"end":692.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.88471875,"end":692.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.54284375,"end":696.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":695.66909375,"end":701.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.4115937500001,"end":697.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.45721875,"end":710.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.92471875,"end":707.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.02596875,"end":707.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.05971875,"end":707.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.1103437500001,"end":707.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.0759687500001,"end":719.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.3290937500001,"end":711.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.7678437500001,"end":711.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.27721875,"end":719.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.9015937500001,"end":734.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.6672187500001,"end":734.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.88659375,"end":746.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":746.98596875,"end":749.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":750.20909375,"end":763.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.60784375,"end":763.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":763.6753437500001,"end":764.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.72596875,"end":763.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":764.56971875,"end":770.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":771.1340937500001,"end":773.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":773.71596875,"end":774.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":774.99846875,"end":778.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":779.08221875,"end":781.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.32659375,"end":786.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.77721875,"end":790.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":791.2322187500001,"end":795.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":796.37909375,"end":800.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":800.56409375,"end":802.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":802.70721875,"end":804.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":805.1540937500001,"end":805.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":806.5547187500001,"end":807.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.02721875,"end":807.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.21284375,"end":820.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":820.27409375,"end":821.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.80971875,"end":830.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":825.7078437500002,"end":826.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":826.46721875,"end":827.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.53409375,"end":830.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.6015937500001,"end":830.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.95596875,"end":838.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.9897187500001,"end":831.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.24284375,"end":831.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.43221875,"end":835.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":837.2334687500002,"end":840.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.8828437500001,"end":840.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":840.8784687500001,"end":849.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.6797187500001,"end":847.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.0378437500001,"end":848.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":848.0165937500001,"end":848.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":849.19784375,"end":849.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.4509687500001,"end":849.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.90659375,"end":852.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":852.9778437500001,"end":853.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":854.2434687500001,"end":856.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":856.7578437500001,"end":860.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":860.5547187500001,"end":867.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":868.2834687500001,"end":879.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":879.48846875,"end":883.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":884.11221875,"end":886.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.9978437500001,"end":892.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":893.07284375,"end":897.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":897.61221875,"end":898.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":898.9453437500001,"end":899.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":900.6497187500001,"end":902.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":902.64096875,"end":905.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":905.88096875,"end":906.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":906.91034375,"end":909.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":909.42471875,"end":910.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.23471875,"end":918.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":912.7490937500002,"end":912.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.78284375,"end":912.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.0522187500001,"end":917.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":930.38346875,"end":932.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":933.9440937500001,"end":937.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.8715937500001,"end":941.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":942.1115937500001,"end":943.6809687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.651,"end":29.431,"text":"謝謝主席,有請院長,還有衛福部,薛部長麻煩再請陳院長備詢衛福部委員長,謝謝,辛苦了可能最後一百日,因為跟你談到國家事情那我還是肯定院長這段時間的辛苦跟努力那這種辛苦跟努力還是為了要給下一個團隊打下更好的基礎照顧更多的臺灣的人民、百姓"},{"start":30.273,"end":58.442,"text":"所以院長的決策還有這個整體的這個方向跟這個好的一個方法絕對是對於胡國立民是一個非常攸關重要的事情那我今天因為時間真的很有限15分鐘所以針對幾個面向要特別來跟院長跟部長來做一個提醒跟討論那第一個當然就長照基金那台灣邁入超高齡明年就到我個人看可能是今年年底明年初就要到了因為在七年前曾經講是2026"},{"start":59.83,"end":86.396,"text":"三年前就講說再提早一年我覺得還會再提更早一點點這我個人的淺見那事實上臺灣的22個縣市現在已經有6個縣市早就進到超高齡社會有嘉義、臺北、南投、基隆、屏東還有我的母縣雲林已經代表的已經佔了四分之一的縣市所以我覺得速度真的會越來越快而且人口結構的快速改變基本上"},{"start":87.208,"end":109.256,"text":"所有的面相通通會變,這個我在這邊也講了不下N次以上,從經濟、教育、文化、產業等等等。所以我們看到蔡政府執政之後,也要回歸回推到馬政府的時候,對長照的預算當時是平均是不足每年50億啦。我們都講50億啦,其實真的是不足啦,不足。一路一直到今年已經拿到800多億。"},{"start":111.042,"end":119.451,"text":"這是非常恐怖的一個成長。那部長、院長看這張圖就是說,這是我們為何不得106到115年的10年的長照推估表。當時是110年的支出,我們推估是396.36億。那實際上決算是來到454。那你看相差。"},{"start":131.28,"end":131.3,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":150.632,"end":165.983,"text":"我不曉得我們的因應知道在什麼地方。那11、3年當然我們現在的預算是抓8和8了。實際上最後的執行是多少還不知道。但是推估是4、3、6。如果照預算去算又誤差了300多、將近400億。"},{"start":168.15,"end":192.188,"text":"這個推估表是不是要更正了,這第一點。第二點,徐部長曾經對我講說長照基金剩餘將近一千多億,那主要是黃帝合一、菸稅遺產遺證還有所得稅,認為五年內長照基金的裁員是沒有問題,這是部長講的。那真的有這麼樂觀嗎?我要簡單講一些背景資料再給院長跟部長做答覆。"},{"start":192.932,"end":199.837,"text":"內政部在110年的12月統計65歲的失智人口是30.8萬那國安會預估120年等於不到10年時間失智人口會達到46萬百分之50的成長所以未來這個面向照顧會更多我們的總總統賴清德特別提出長照3.0"},{"start":212.657,"end":237.423,"text":"那其中又針對住宿式的服務機構使用者補助方案從整個預算規模要從78億調高到118億就要再增加40億嘛還有要強化重度失能者的照顧新增居家或社區的晚間倒載照顧然後建立24小時的重度失能者支持服務這可能又要需要幾十億的預算的規模嘛對不對好而且我們長照幾支戶7年"},{"start":239.608,"end":242.59,"text":"這幾個面向我想從要進到實質上進到3.0可能明年我們的長照預算就會破千億。"},{"start":257.076,"end":277.1,"text":"一定會破千例。那院長跟部長再看一下嘛從過去長道基金的收入來源110億是700多億但是111到12它確實有高達將近900多億但是如果以我們的長道基金來源的預估就是推估表113如果是776.6億那今年實際上執行數是828的話那這均相差了50幾億以此類推114"},{"start":283.137,"end":283.537,"text":"因為我們的收入的預算"},{"start":307.55,"end":313.858,"text":"我們的支出的預算是根據收入的預算來。那收入的預算是由財政部這邊給的資料。"},{"start":315.662,"end":337.16,"text":"財政部在這個因為有一些像說房地利合一稅等等遺產稅這些因為他是比較不確定的所以通常會比較低估所以在年度結算的時候我們的收入通常比原來收入的預算高很多所以目前來講的話已經累計到1500億的這個基金的結餘在那個地方"},{"start":343.098,"end":372.111,"text":"所以我第二張表格對不起我抄一下第二張表格你可以看嘛你的結語是1120的時候是1072嘛對不對我還是照部長所講的金額去算沒有去年去年後來整個的結語算起來的話total現在已經差不多1500億對所以收入有比原來的預算多很多如果陳理部長所答覆我這樣院長你可以看到我們長照基金的支出推估表"},{"start":372.776,"end":394.131,"text":"跟財源收入表,坦白講這兩張表是假的,差太多啦。我們的支出的預算只能根據那個收入的預算來支付啦。這就是含我們的,因為我們收入的部分,包括贈餘稅、菸稅,還有房地合一稅,那是浮動的嘛。我們一般,政府在說收入的時候,財政部都比較保守啦。就是說會講比較直接啦。"},{"start":398.454,"end":404.699,"text":"實際上會比較多。我們的支出,我們要向委員報告的是,通常我們是量入為出的方式來進行我們的長照。但是你說的居住型長照等等,這長照3.0,清德總統未來要推動的,這個我們"},{"start":419.031,"end":420.011,"text":"但是坦白講這些稅"},{"start":447.332,"end":472.513,"text":"我們專家學者看待裡面,他是認為是交機會稅。所以以穩定性,尤其這個房地合一的稅,一直在打黃,這兩年可以比較高,明年後年,大後年,他或許就會急劇下降,也不一定。所以這個我是希望可能要有相關的一些應變的一些措施的,因為我們希望過去打出長照,就是找到"},{"start":473.018,"end":478.522,"text":"有關於支出的這部分的話委員剛剛提到的3.0將來要做的事情也是蠻多不過有一點會有一點差異就是我們投入到這個資源部件的成本這些的話會減少"},{"start":501.238,"end":501.738,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":528.636,"end":551.216,"text":"我也是第一個在本院提出這個修法的委員那時候當時是院長跟部長都有打呼我一步一步來這個我當然可以接受但是現在已經三月了今天已經三月了我知道這個衛福部今年有成立的健康政策與醫療科技的評估中心這個要肯定因為協助健保進行新醫療技術藥品醫材幾戶的審定"},{"start":554.144,"end":577.707,"text":"但是跟賴戶總總統要建制一個獨立的百億癌症心療基金這顯然落差很大因為我們的目標就是國家的防癌癌症的防治計畫目標是在2031年讓臺灣的癌症死亡人數可以減少到三分之一要達到這個目標很多的面向必須要處理的但是這個心療的百億基金我覺得是重中之重"},{"start":578.624,"end":596.184,"text":"各位報告目前的做法是在健保的總額之內總額預算之內的話那我們利用這個公務預算補助的像說去年240億今年200億那今年的200億裡面我們就有安額差不多60億"},{"start":597.085,"end":624.916,"text":"那其中24億左右是在做這個暫時性支付,那其他有三十幾億是在做這個新藥的納入。所以現在嚴格來講有60億的這個癌症新藥的錢,就今年。明年呢?明年的話我們會爭取看看是不是能夠有繼續有公務預算可以進來。"},{"start":626.737,"end":647.589,"text":"院長當時跟部長討論我是要從制度面一步一步來嘛,對不對?那我覺得這個制度面是不是可以在院長部長在短時間內可以趕快去確定,不然你明年還是要再去,就是今年年底就準備要爭取明年度的這個預算嘛,但是他可能...各位我們的計算就要處理了。各位的計算還是我們這邊會檢查。好啊,OK啊,好。但是這個基金到底什麼時候可以成立?"},{"start":657.163,"end":659.825,"text":"新藥基金並不是所有的新藥就通通一直給下去。"},{"start":675.816,"end":698.189,"text":"他是有一個過渡期的,那從暫時性支付到納入到健保裡面,變成常規性的給付,然後再過來就應該移到總額去。所以他是一個階段一個階段的,不然的話,一百億老實講都沒空當,要這個癌症的藥品就不夠人了。這是暫時性支付為主啦。不,對你說的我了解啦,但是"},{"start":701.531,"end":702.753,"text":"你現在用這個方式,當然應付這段時間,甚至是"},{"start":711.195,"end":711.715,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":734.983,"end":740.328,"text":"是不是一個月內可以給我一個比較未來的正確的一個方向跟處理的方式還有這個目標要如何去達成的一個報告好不好,謝謝。謝謝院長部長,再來就是也是去年11月在這邊討論的"},{"start":760.783,"end":788.972,"text":"護理人力方這是院長任內根部長非常重視也非常絞盡腦汁的事情但是我在這邊特別提到就是要搞在中國啦不是大夜班小夜班的問題啦也不是搞成到區議院跟醫學中心這批時間在這樣對抗還好因為八月之前的一個抗爭處理得宜嘛可接受的一個方案大家沒有走上街頭但是其實當時我們特別有提到就是針對所謂的"},{"start":792.021,"end":805.417,"text":"這個韓日班的不分這個吉曼縣的病床還有急診的這個應該也要與病去思考我們對大小月班有獎勵為什麼對這些就沒有獎勵這好像在分階級不對啦"},{"start":807.367,"end":826.691,"text":"各位委員報告,我們目前正在規劃這一塊,這已經開始在做討論了,我們內部先做討論,先把一個草案弄出來,然後再跟這一些醫界或者其他各界來做討論。這個草案什麼時候會出來?應該是在上半年會有一個草案出來,因為我們必須要爭取預算,"},{"start":830.572,"end":832.112,"text":"最後一件事情就是偏鄉醫療,這個剩下一分鐘而已,院長跟部長可以看"},{"start":856.783,"end":857.263,"text":"今朝院在110年8月18日調查報告,"},{"start":868.365,"end":891.111,"text":"只我的這個雲林的口香無牙醫診所。同時報告中雲林縣的部分鄉鎮僅有一家牙醫診所,也要求衛務部跟雲林縣政府必須檢討。不僅雲林如此,112年10月底前,全台的牙醫醫療的資源不足鄉鎮還有153個。然後再來,我們看到弱勢還有身上朋友可能需要倒載的這個牙醫的口香紮護或診治,"},{"start":893.14,"end":917.553,"text":"全國有1萬6千個牙醫師,只有160位投入這個到載。我跟這啪啦。所以我是覺得優化這個偏鄉的醫療第一期已經結束,到第二期什麼時候?院長可不可以在這邊做具體的承諾?我講我們盡快,來。這一個案子,也就是我們的優化偏鄉醫療的計畫第二期,已經在..."},{"start":930.501,"end":934.946,"text":"謝謝劉委員建國的謝謝劉委員建國的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第6位吳委員春辰質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eeb2aa1a46288c6a678ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a675fd09c7090c33d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:27:25 - 10:43:12","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-03-26T10:43:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T10:27:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時27分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：院長早。請教陳院長，我剛剛看到媒體有一些報導，說你對於馬英九總統4月1日要到大陸去有一些看法……"],["陳院長建仁：我尊重他個人的決定。"],["賴委員士葆：那麼你的看法是尊重、沒有評論，還是看到他去覺得more than happy。"],["陳院長建仁：我想我尊重他個人的選擇，而且他如果在中國時需要一些安全的保障，政府一定會來提供周全的保護。但我也希望馬前總統，因為他是我們的前總統，所以對於國人有關臺灣主權、自由、民主相關價值的期待，也希望能夠符合國人的盼望。"],["賴委員士葆：你看一下他去年就去了。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["賴委員士葆：他去年在大陸每到一個地方都有大批的大陸媒體，每天都大幅報導，他去那裡講什麼？講中華民國；講什麼？講他是中華民國的總統；講什麼？講中華民國112年，去年他在大陸的時候，到處講中華民國，到處說中華民國，到處說我們的憲法，這就是你剛剛有點質疑的主權方面的議題，他去年展現無遺，你Google一下、讀一讀、找一下，清清楚楚。而且院長，不要忘了，所有最近的民調，如台灣民意基金會，老實講大家認為它是中間偏綠或是算中間，或是淺綠，whatever，它所做的民調將近八成的臺灣人民希望兩岸多交流……"],["陳院長建仁：我們也是希望兩岸交流。"],["賴委員士葆：兩岸多交流可以遠離戰爭，在現在兩岸兵凶戰危這麼緊張的時候，老實講有人願意去大陸跟大陸談，而且是以前總統這樣的高度。他是以前總統的高度去跟大陸談，當然是一個文化之旅、教育之旅、祭祖之旅，但也是一個和平對話之旅，他替臺灣人民……老實講，這件事情做出來，如果真的能夠促進第二次的馬習會，如果能夠做到大陸不否認我們的治權，我們也不否認它的治權，就是兩岸互不否認治權，那就是很大的突破，這個部分你要很感謝他喔！"],["陳院長建仁：但是上次他到大陸的時候，中國方面的官方一向不承認他是中華民國的總統，雖然他自己說是，所以我想我們一定要在兩岸健康有序的交流上做不斷的努力，有任何這方面的努力，我們當然……"],["賴委員士葆：如果有二次馬習會，你樂見嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是一個假設性的問題，沒有辦法回答。"],["賴委員士葆：機率很高喔！機率非常高，就我掌握的訊息，機率非常高喔！你的看法怎麼樣？酸酸的，還是happy的，還是沒有表情的？"],["陳院長建仁：我希望如果有這樣一個機會的話，萬一有這樣一個機會的話，他能夠在習先生的面前來主張臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家，而且來捍衛臺灣的自由民主。"],["賴委員士葆：主權問題？你還扯主權問題，他在去年的時候已經講得很清楚了，根據憲法來處理主權啊！主權問題的話，老實講……"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以他應該講清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：老實講……"],["陳院長建仁：他講清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：以現在來講，更應該去太平島宣示主權啊！是不是？結果……"],["陳院長建仁：本來太平島就是臺灣的，要不我們怎麼來建港呢？對不對？"],["賴委員士葆：結果……"],["陳院長建仁：所以本來就是，是你不承認它的主權。"],["賴委員士葆：主席，主持一下，好不好？我沒有讓他講話，他不要講話，好不好？你尊重我、你尊重我、你尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：請、請。"],["賴委員士葆：太平島，其實我們都很清楚，碼頭花了17億，今天啟用典禮，低調啊！總統不敢去，這麼好的機會，總統不敢去，宣揚主權這時候該去啊！大家都很清楚，蔡英文總統不去就是因為美國的壓力，美國2016年也給馬英九總統很大的壓力，叫他不要去，馬英九總統去了，馬英九頂得住美國的壓力，蔡英文頂不住美國的壓力，這個東西就很清楚、看得到，你在這裡講主權、主權，真的要捍衛主權又不敢，對不對？喔！那裡戰雲密布喔！不要去，危險喔！如果這樣的話，萬一兩岸打仗起來了，你人在國外，啊喲！臺灣危險了，現在打仗了，我不要回來。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：人民會瞧得起嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：人民瞧不起的啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我不要你回答，你先不要回答。我就告訴你，不要去講這個東西，對要給人家看、做給人家看，原來綠營有多少人圍剿馬英九，說他去大陸敢講中華民國嗎？馬英九講給你聽。中華民國，馬英九講給你聽。中華民國總統，馬英九講給你聽，還有中華民國112年。蔡英文呢？太平島的事件，他就是chicken，不敢去，頂不住美國的壓力。這個時間都扯不完了，因為我時間有限。","第二點，我跟你講勞動節，你上一次回答委員的一個提問，請部長可以上來。"],["主席：請勞動部許部長。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是確定今年五一勞動節所有人都可以放假？所有的工作人員都可以放假，確定了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你要我回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["陳院長建仁：你剛才都一直不給我回答。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，現在可以回答了，請。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得委員如果問政的時候，該給我回答的機會卻沒有，我覺得對我相當的不公平，尤其是……"],["賴委員士葆：不會啊！怎麼不公平，我時間有限啊！"],["陳院長建仁：尤其是太平島本來就是中華民國的領土，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：如果給我一個半小時，我就讓你講得痛快，只給我15分鐘而已啊！"],["陳院長建仁：除非你否定太平島是中華民國的國土，要不的話，你為什麼要去做任何的demonstration呢？所以這完全不必要，我不認同你的看法。至於五一勞動節放假的事情……"],["賴委員士葆：我也不認同你的看法。"],["陳院長建仁：我不應該講話嗎？我該不該講？"],["賴委員士葆：你講。"],["陳院長建仁：五一勞動節放假的情形，我們已經跨部會有開過會議，現在在跟民間、跟企業的團體來做相關的溝通，我們也希望能夠儘早來做一個結論。"],["賴委員士葆：今年5月1日有希望全國放假一天嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：還在溝通當中，我們當然是……"],["賴委員士葆：往放假方向走，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我們再溝通，看看各界的想法，因為這裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：我們都很高興啊，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，其實委員……"],["賴委員士葆：我看民調有六成的人贊成。"],["陳院長建仁：對，當然，我也知道，可是現在有一些民間不同的職業團體，他們……"],["賴委員士葆：哪一些團體反對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，有一些職業團體還需要溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一些團體？比如說？"],["陳院長建仁：這個……"],["賴委員士葆：哪一些團體反對？"],["陳院長建仁：現在還在溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一些團體還在溝通？"],["陳院長建仁：還在溝通當中。"],["賴委員士葆：你不說，只這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：就還在溝通，你要我說……"],["賴委員士葆：我可不可以跟你講，我做一個小結論？5月1日我們可以樂觀期待全國放假，我這樣statement可以嗎？期待、期待、期待！"],["陳院長建仁：我們溝通有成果會跟各位報告。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有成果？"],["陳院長建仁：當然一定是在最近的時間內。"],["賴委員士葆：最近時間，多近？兩個禮拜？"],["陳院長建仁：差不多。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。再來，勞保年金改革，你還記得有一個人，知名度很高的人跟你談過勞保的年金改革，那個人叫做沈富雄，還記得吧？"],["陳院長建仁：記得，在總統府。"],["賴委員士葆：2017年在總統府。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["賴委員士葆：那時候外面的人在抗議，這是他親口跟我講的，你們兩個在那裡談，勞保年金沈富雄說年金改革的罩門在勞保，院長曾跟沈富雄說勞保也要一起改革，這是你講的嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：你講的喔！結果勞保年金到現在完全沒有改，潛藏負債超過12兆，有人講18兆，有人講16兆，昨天我在衛環委員會請教許部長，他親口講的，說到現在為止政府怕勞保破產，補貼了超過2,600億，對吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["賴委員士葆：對喔！為了讓它不要倒就補貼，一般估算如果沒有這樣補貼，2028年就會倒。院長，你跟我們講說年金沒有改的話，就沒有辦法領得到什麼之類的，勞保你沒有改，由政府不斷地補貼，然後對公教人員來講的話，你是完全不同的標準，請問你知不知道公教人員年金改革下來，到現在已經第七年了，所得替代率一直降低、一直降低，要從75%降到60%，一直降低、一直降低，已經快要沒有辦法生活了，結果有些委員提出來是不是可以stop here？你還講風涼話，說這不行啦！這個不行等等，你知不知道軍公教人員年金砍下來，一年省多少錢？"],["陳院長建仁：到現在為止……"],["賴委員士葆：一年多少？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答了嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：回答，請。"],["陳院長建仁：當時在軍公教的年金改革……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答我的問題就好了，一年可以省多少錢？"],["陳院長建仁：好，現在在年金改革的這個過程當中，就是把省下來的錢放入基金，到現在為止大概省下了2,000億，所以我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：幾年？幾年省2,000億？"],["陳院長建仁：6到7年的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！1年就是300億左右，1年省300億，其實不是說要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，我只是要challenge。"],["陳院長建仁：但是這樣才可以領得長長久久，領到老，世世代代領得到啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你同一個概念，勞保……"],["陳院長建仁：對於現職的跟已經退休的人是合理的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我請問你，院長，現在造成公務人員不願退休，將近36%，就是退休率比以前減少36%。"],["陳院長建仁：我們謝謝他們願意留下來繼續服務。"],["賴委員士葆：新的人進不來，老的不退，新的進不來。"],["陳院長建仁：這一些公務人員都是很有經驗，而且對國家都很認真的效忠，他們願意留下來多做幾年，我們感謝他，實在要給他最高的敬意，這樣好的公務人員應該要讓他繼續努力。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，同樣的概念，勞保為什麼沒有改呢？勞保你說要改，到現在為止，原地踏地，勞保都沒動，如果你……"],["陳院長建仁：勞保改革……"],["賴委員士葆：勞保這樣動……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：好，回答一下。"],["陳院長建仁：當時年金改革，勞保是也是其中之一，我們也已經提出了勞保改革的方案，可是那個時候勞資雙方都還沒有定論，而當時有兩件事情很重要，也是當時勞保改革時的重點。"],["賴委員士葆：好，不必講以前啦！院長，stop、stop。"],["陳院長建仁：第一個，政府負最後的給付責任。第二個，政府要撥補，這些東西我們都有做到。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，可以了，因為我時間已經快到了，這個話題要把你打住，我就是告訴你，很簡單，你們的 mindset、你們的mentality，就是因為你們認為、民進黨政府認為軍公教大部分不是它的票，然後擁抱勞工……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤，我們感謝所有軍公教人員對國家的服務，然後給他最高的謝意跟敬意。"],["賴委員士葆：好了，stop，停了。","來，最後一題，請衛福部長上來，許部長可以下去了。有人跟我檢舉，聽好喔！兩位長官，我們現在自由貿易港區裡面一堆電子煙、一堆加熱菸放在那裡，進來了，有人跟我檢舉，我一看數字嚇一跳，電子煙在臺北關自貿區裡面有1,826 piece，加熱煙有6,155千支，加熱煙的零組件將近26.4萬個set，簡單來講，有二十七萬多這麼多的加熱煙。請問衛福部長，我想他比較熟，我不要為難院長，我就請教部長，它是不是禁止進來，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是。"],["賴委員士葆：是！那是不是違禁品？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不太清楚自貿區條例所定違禁品的定義……"],["賴委員士葆：禁止進來不叫違禁品，那叫什麼？你告訴我，對不對？自由貿易港區條例第十五條規定，違禁品不可以進自貿區，你知道這裡有多少嗎？院長，你看好喔！全國反菸團體都在看喔！3億根香菸的量在自由貿易港區裡面已經放超過一年了，放在那裡啊！幹什麼？準備以後你可以了就進來臺灣或者出去，就轉運一下到外國去，但是明明白白違反了自由貿易港區第十五條，違禁品不可以進來，剛才部長講得很清楚喔！它是禁止進來的違禁品，請你去查一下，為什麼可以進來？可不可以？","院長，拜託你，因為我問了衛福部、交通部、財政部，這三個部會彼此踢皮球，因為主管單位是交通部，自由貿易港區是交通部主管的；但是違禁品的認定，它認為是財政部規定；財政部說根據衛福部；衛福部部長在這裡說不可以啊！進來了，進來了，危害我們的健康啊！你知道那個一顆煙彈等於幾包菸啊？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是在自貿區嘛！並沒有所謂進來……"],["賴委員士葆：就不行啊！違禁品，我已經講了……"],["薛部長瑞元：在那邊就擋下來了。"],["賴委員士葆：自貿港區第十五條規定在那裡，就不可以進到自貿港區！"],["主席：謝謝賴委員士葆的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息5分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.77284375,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.949718750000001,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.46284375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.340343750000002,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.141593750000002,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.54221875,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.06034375,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.51534375,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.54471875,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.384093750000005,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.52721875,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.91096875,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.97409375,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.189093750000005,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.90659375,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.23534375,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.70784375000001,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.48284375,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.91721875,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.13909375,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.65784375000001,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.63659375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.52221875000001,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.39534375000001,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.44846875,"end":110.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.15284375,"end":112.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.38471875,"end":113.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.66284375000001,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.65409375,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.01596875000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.29784375,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.52471875,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.11909375000002,"end":138.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.45221875000001,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.02159375000002,"end":146.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.38784375,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.07534375,"end":150.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.53909375,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.05784375000002,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":155.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":159.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.71909375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.11471875,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":168.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.40971875000002,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.26596875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":175.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.45909375000002,"end":179.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.00284375,"end":181.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.26409375,"end":184.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.93034375000002,"end":185.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.58409375000002,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.40659375,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.48659375000003,"end":190.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.13159375,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.83159375000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.03534375,"end":217.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.26221875000002,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.66721875000002,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.52346875,"end":225.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.93659375000001,"end":226.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.47221875000002,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.29471875000002,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.89784375000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.09596875000003,"end":232.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.09159375000002,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.93096875,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.21346875,"end":251.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.32096875000002,"end":259.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.91471875,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.38284375,"end":260.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.80034375,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.18846875,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.94346875,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.37784375,"end":266.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.21721875000003,"end":268.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.90909375,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.52909375,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.53721875,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.28784375000004,"end":274.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.11471875,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.62471875,"end":278.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.08034375,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.37971875,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.59471875,"end":281.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.96159375,"end":283.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.92721875,"end":286.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.19284375,"end":288.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.21784375000004,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.02784375000005,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.22159375,"end":292.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.80784375,"end":295.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.20846875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.62159375000005,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.67596875000004,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.14409375,"end":305.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":310.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.78409375,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.55596875000003,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.99034375,"end":315.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.89721875000004,"end":317.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.74909375000004,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.49534375,"end":323.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.50346875,"end":328.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.14409375,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.81471875,"end":332.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.99159375000005,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.30284375,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.50096875,"end":341.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.65284375000005,"end":342.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.15471875000003,"end":342.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.99846875000003,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.39471875000004,"end":346.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.62659375000004,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.26346875,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.06909375000004,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.35096875000005,"end":357.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":365.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.11721875,"end":366.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.77096875,"end":368.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.91846875000005,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.63971875000004,"end":373.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.59284375000004,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.09471875,"end":376.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.20409375,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.26721875000004,"end":379.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.73534375,"end":380.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.44409375000004,"end":382.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.63784375,"end":384.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.52784375000005,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.36284375,"end":390.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.42596875000004,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.26096875,"end":392.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.45471875000004,"end":394.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.41221875,"end":396.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.93096875000003,"end":397.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.01534375,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.03221875,"end":397.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.04909375,"end":399.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.97284375000004,"end":400.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.37346875000003,"end":400.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.40721875,"end":401.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.76971875000004,"end":406.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.38096875,"end":414.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.89096875,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.78534375000004,"end":417.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.26971875000004,"end":430.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.36659375000005,"end":417.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.74034375,"end":429.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.96784375000004,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.35784375000003,"end":449.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.66971875,"end":451.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.22221875,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.50471875000005,"end":453.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.96846875000006,"end":457.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.37721875000005,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.58784375000005,"end":460.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.48221875,"end":461.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.71409375,"end":462.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.05159375000005,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.97534375000004,"end":470.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.62846875,"end":470.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.01221875000005,"end":474.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.15971875,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.20159375000003,"end":474.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.29846875000004,"end":475.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.85534375000003,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.73284375000003,"end":477.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.03659375,"end":477.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.05346875000004,"end":477.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.96471875000003,"end":479.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.77034375000005,"end":481.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.05284375,"end":482.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.35221875,"end":483.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.93846875,"end":485.15346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.37284375,"end":486.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.12784375,"end":487.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.76909375,"end":490.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.90784375000004,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.04596875000004,"end":502.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.19784375,"end":498.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.49721875000006,"end":499.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.38284375,"end":503.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.01971875000004,"end":506.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.87159375000005,"end":508.74471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.09909375,"end":509.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.27596875000006,"end":512.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.8959687500001,"end":513.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.22909375,"end":515.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.6084687499999,"end":517.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.49846875,"end":522.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.9365937499999,"end":525.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.65346875,"end":527.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.80534375,"end":526.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.0034687500001,"end":528.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.75846875,"end":529.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.85971875,"end":531.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.59346875,"end":534.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.52534375,"end":537.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.59659375,"end":541.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.25846875,"end":543.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.11909375,"end":545.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.4309687500001,"end":547.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.18159375,"end":549.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.7890937500001,"end":549.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.98721875,"end":550.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.0503437500001,"end":553.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.4465937500001,"end":554.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.41659375,"end":558.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.9309687500001,"end":561.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.2553437500001,"end":565.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.49159375,"end":562.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.3897187499999,"end":567.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.00971875,"end":570.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.5703437500001,"end":573.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.88221875,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.6328437500001,"end":577.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.8015937499999,"end":579.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.1428437500001,"end":580.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.5772187499999,"end":582.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5222187500001,"end":584.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.13784375,"end":586.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.37784375,"end":588.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.1372187500001,"end":589.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.50409375,"end":591.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9722187500001,"end":593.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.6553437499999,"end":598.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.9584687500001,"end":600.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.9665937500001,"end":605.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.36221875,"end":610.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.14221875,"end":612.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.81284375,"end":614.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.8547187500001,"end":617.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.45346875,"end":622.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.7690937500001,"end":631.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.35409375,"end":633.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.9740937500001,"end":635.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.5559687500001,"end":637.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.69909375,"end":638.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.8003437500001,"end":639.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.10409375,"end":640.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.12909375,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.18784375,"end":644.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.92596875,"end":645.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.0947187500001,"end":646.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.5290937500001,"end":657.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.7722187500001,"end":658.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.4934687500001,"end":660.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.1809687500001,"end":663.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.5347187500001,"end":667.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.4709687500001,"end":670.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.39034375,"end":670.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.52534375,"end":670.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.6772187500001,"end":679.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.69784375,"end":675.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.0772187500002,"end":676.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.0347187500001,"end":678.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.1359687500001,"end":678.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.62096875,"end":679.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.8234687500001,"end":680.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.73471875,"end":681.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.07221875,"end":681.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.2578437500001,"end":682.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.26596875,"end":684.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.21909375,"end":691.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.46721875,"end":693.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.12534375,"end":693.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.7959687500002,"end":696.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.23471875,"end":696.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.2765937500001,"end":696.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.7153437500001,"end":697.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.7490937500002,"end":698.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.5378437500001,"end":712.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.78971875,"end":706.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.2365937500001,"end":711.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.00409375,"end":715.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.29096875,"end":714.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.2609687500001,"end":719.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.3959687500001,"end":716.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.46284375,"end":721.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.2053437500001,"end":721.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.9265937499999,"end":722.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.9897187500001,"end":723.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.0065937500001,"end":745.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.4934687500001,"end":740.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.0790937500001,"end":745.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.3997187500001,"end":746.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.86784375,"end":748.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.3484687499999,"end":752.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.63909375,"end":754.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.3772187500001,"end":755.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.44034375,"end":756.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.2122187500001,"end":757.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.85346875,"end":758.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.54096875,"end":763.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.14784375,"end":764.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.16034375,"end":772.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.26159375,"end":767.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.2865937500001,"end":769.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.93596875,"end":770.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.05409375,"end":770.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.2522187500001,"end":771.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.58534375,"end":773.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.6147187500001,"end":775.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.3528437500001,"end":776.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.65596875,"end":781.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.01846875,"end":783.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.81534375,"end":786.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.02596875,"end":790.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.9622187500001,"end":792.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.8015937499999,"end":795.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.8728437500001,"end":796.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.20596875,"end":798.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.2434687500001,"end":805.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.4028437500001,"end":809.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.6259687500001,"end":810.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.1909687500001,"end":813.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.4015937500001,"end":814.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.1609687500002,"end":817.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.0803437500001,"end":818.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.2278437500001,"end":820.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":820.7465937500001,"end":822.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.36221875,"end":824.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.9822187500001,"end":826.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.2265937500001,"end":832.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.6940937500001,"end":835.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.3940937500001,"end":836.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.60909375,"end":837.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.09409375,"end":839.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.8828437500001,"end":840.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.96284375,"end":846.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.20284375,"end":847.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.7465937500001,"end":848.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.50596875,"end":851.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.15096875,"end":854.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.8972187500001,"end":857.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.80409375,"end":858.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.8628437500001,"end":861.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.56284375,"end":866.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.50721875,"end":870.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.5615937500002,"end":871.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.9622187500001,"end":876.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.7040937500001,"end":877.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.2903437500001,"end":882.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.24721875,"end":887.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":887.50409375,"end":890.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.9765937500001,"end":888.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.6428437500001,"end":891.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.09409375,"end":893.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":893.39346875,"end":894.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.9797187500001,"end":896.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":896.3972187500001,"end":896.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.9665937500001,"end":900.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.0715937500001,"end":901.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.96596875,"end":902.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.63659375,"end":905.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.5603437500001,"end":907.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.45034375,"end":912.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":912.76596875,"end":914.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.4197187500001,"end":915.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":915.48284375,"end":916.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.5122187500001,"end":917.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":917.27159375,"end":917.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":918.5034687500001,"end":920.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.49471875,"end":922.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":936.5090937500001,"end":941.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.65596875,"end":944.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":946.00971875,"end":947.39346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.154,"end":10.944,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進,有請行政院陳院長來請陳院長備選賴委員早你早"},{"start":19.755,"end":40.872,"text":"我請教陳院長,現在我剛看到媒體有一些報導說你對於馬英九前總統4月1號要到大陸去,你的一些看法,那麼你的看法是尊重沒有評論還是說more than happy看到這樣他去?"},{"start":41.512,"end":66.161,"text":"我想我尊重他個人的選擇而且他如果需要在中國的時候需要有一些安全的保障政府一定會來提供相權的保護但是我也希望馬前總統因為他是我們的前總統所以對於國人在有關於臺灣的主權自由民主的這些價值的這個期待也能夠符合我們國人的盼望。"},{"start":66.974,"end":91.233,"text":"你看一下他去年就去了他去年在大陸每到一個地方都大批的大陸媒體每天的大幅報導他去那裡講什麼講中華民國講什麼他是中華民國的總統講什麼講中華民國112年去年的時候他到處在大陸的時候到處講中華民國到處"},{"start":93.735,"end":121.249,"text":"說中華民國到處說我們的憲法這就是你剛剛說的有一點質疑的主權東西他其實在去年展現無遺啊你讀一讀把google一下把他找一下清清楚楚而且不要忘了院長所有的民調最近的民調台灣民力基金會比較老實講大家認為他中間偏綠吧或者說中間也好或者是淺綠whatever"},{"start":123.332,"end":151.094,"text":"將近八成的臺灣人民希望兩岸交流,多交流。我們也是希望兩岸交流。可以遠離戰爭。在現在兩岸兵兇戰偽的時候,這麼緊張的時候,老實講,有人願意去大陸跟大陸談,而且是這麼高度的前總統。他是以前總統的高度去跟大陸談。"},{"start":154.175,"end":175.102,"text":"他當然是一個文化之旅教育之旅祭祖之旅但是也是一個和平對話之旅他替台灣人民老實講這件事情做出來如果真的能夠促進第二次的馬戲會如果能夠做到"},{"start":176.9,"end":190.676,"text":"說大陸不否認我們的自權我們也不否認他的自權就兩岸互不否認自權那就是很大突破這個東西你要很感謝他喔"},{"start":191.84,"end":216.385,"text":"但是上次到大陸去的時候他到大陸去的時候在中國方面的官方一向不承認他是中華民國的總統雖然他自己說是啦所以我想對我們一定要在兩岸的健康有序的這個交流上做不斷的努力那有任何這方面的努力我們當然如果有奧次馬戲會你樂見嗎"},{"start":218.649,"end":233.422,"text":"我想這是一個假設性的問題沒有辦法回答機率很高喔機率非常高喔就我掌握的信息機率非常高喔你的看法怎麼樣酸酸的還是happy的還是"},{"start":236.26,"end":258.832,"text":"我希望如果有這樣的一個機會的話萬一有這樣的一個機會的話他能夠在習先生的面前來主張臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家而且來捍衛臺灣的自由民主主權問題你要測主權問題他在去年的時候已經講得很清楚啦根據憲法來處理主權啦主權問題的話老實講老實講太平島現在來講"},{"start":264.435,"end":264.595,"text":"低調啊!"},{"start":294.178,"end":298.23,"text":"總統不敢去啊!這麼好的機會總統不敢去!宣揚主權這時候該去啊!"},{"start":300.728,"end":328.026,"text":"大家都很清楚蔡英文總統不去就是因為美國的壓力美國2016年也給馬英九總統很大的壓力叫他不要去馬英九總統去了馬英九頂得住美國的壓力蔡英文頂不住美國的壓力這個東西就很清楚看得到你在這裡講主權主權真的韓國主權就不敢那裡佔領秘部喔不要去喔不一樣喔"},{"start":329.275,"end":350.972,"text":"如果這樣說,萬一兩岸打仗起來了,你人在國外了,台灣危險了,現在打仗了,我不要回來。我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?沒有,我不要你回答,你先不要回答。我就告訴你,不要去講這個東西,給人家看,說給人家看。"},{"start":352.438,"end":372.387,"text":"原來綠營的人,多少人圍剿馬英九,所以說大陸去敢講中華民國嗎?馬英九講給你聽,中華民國,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國總統,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國一輩一十二年。蔡英文勒,太平島的世界,他就是chicken,不敢去啊,頂不住美國的壓力,來!"},{"start":375.834,"end":400,"text":"第二題我跟你講,那個勞動節你上一次回答委員的一個提問,請那個部長可以起來。是不是確定今年五一勞動節所有人都可以封假?所有的工作人員都可以封假?確定了嗎?你要我回答嗎?你剛才都一直不給我回答。現在可以回答了。"},{"start":402.956,"end":430.032,"text":"我覺得委員如果問這個時候呢該給我回答的機會沒有我是覺得對我相當的不公平尤其是太平島本來就是中華民國的領土所以除非你否定太平島是不是中華民國國土要不的話你為什麼要去做任何的demonstration呢所以這完全不必要我不認同你的看法五一勞動節這個放假的事情"},{"start":431.033,"end":457.455,"text":"我應該講話嗎?我該不該講?五一勞動節放假的情形我們已經跟跨部會有開過會議那現在呢在跟民間跟企業的團體來做相關的溝通我們也希望能夠盡早的來做一個結論今年五月一號有希望全國放假一天嗎?還在溝通當中我們當然是往放假方向走吧對不對我們在溝通看看各界的想法因為這裡面很高興啊"},{"start":459.819,"end":462.261,"text":"哪一些團體還在溝通?"},{"start":483.3,"end":484,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":514.284,"end":541.271,"text":"老保年金改革你還記得有一個人知名度很高的人跟你談過老保的年金改革那個人叫做沈富雄還記得嗎?嗯記得在總統府2017年在總統府那時候外面的人在抗議這是他親口跟我講的你們兩個在那裡談老保年金沈富雄說年金改革的罩門在老保"},{"start":542.318,"end":554.752,"text":"院長曾跟他說就是沈副總老闆也要一起改革這是你講的嗎?對沒有錯你講的齁來結果老闆年輕到現在完全沒有改革"},{"start":557.185,"end":572.773,"text":"簽債賦到超過12兆,有人講18兆,有人講16兆。昨天我在問委員會請教我們的許部長,你親口講的,說到現在為止政府補貼勞保,怕他破產,補貼了超過2600億,對吧?"},{"start":577.024,"end":605.007,"text":"對的齁所以讓他不要去倒因為一般估算如果沒有這樣補貼2028年就要倒所以院長你跟我們講的說年金沒有改的話就沒有辦法領得到啊什麼之類老婆你沒有改啊你有政府不斷的補貼然後對公教人員來講的話你是完全不同的一個標準"},{"start":607.421,"end":635.456,"text":"所以公教人員到現在請問你知不知道公教人員年金改革下來到現在已經第7年了所得替代率一直降低一直降低要從75%降到60%一直降低一直降低已經快沒辦法生活了結果人家有些委員提出來是不是可以stop here你還講紅蓮話啊這不行啊這不行啊等等你知不知道公教人員軍公教了齁年金砍下來一年省多少錢"},{"start":636.664,"end":663.54,"text":"到現在為止我可以回答了嗎?當時在軍公教的年金改革你回答我問題就好了一年可以省多少錢?現在在年金改革的這個過程當中就是把要省下來的錢放入基金到現在為止大概省下了兩千億所以我們現在確實兩千億六到七年的時間一年就是三百億左右嘛一年省三百億"},{"start":664.58,"end":684.568,"text":"一年省300億,其實不是說要怎麼樣怎麼樣,我只是要challenge。但是這樣才可以領得長長久久,領到老啊,世世代代領得到啊。對於現職的跟已經退休的人是合理的啊。現在造成是公務人員不願意退休。"},{"start":691.504,"end":711.05,"text":"我們謝謝他們願意留下來繼續服務在我們這一些公務人員都是很有經驗而且對國家都很認真的效忠他們願意留下來多做幾年我們感謝他實在是給他最高的敬意我們這樣好的公務人員應該讓他繼續努力"},{"start":715.352,"end":717.423,"text":"老闆你想要改,發言委員原地談不到,老闆都沒有"},{"start":720.266,"end":722.607,"text":"委員長可以了齁因為我時間已經快到了齁"},{"start":749.378,"end":776.913,"text":"我這個話題要幫你打住我就是告訴你很簡單你們的Mindset你們的Mentality就是因為你們認為民進黨政府認為軍公教大部分不是他的票錯誤我們感謝所有軍公教人員對國家的服務然後給他最高的謝意跟敬意來最後一題我們請衛生部長也上來齁那個許部長可以下去了"},{"start":779.69,"end":804.297,"text":"有人跟我檢舉聽好兩位長官我們現在啊自由貿易港區裡面一堆電子煙一堆加熱煙都在那裡進來了有人跟我檢舉啊我數數自己看嚇一跳電子煙在台北關自貿區裡面有1826px加熱煙有6155px"},{"start":809.693,"end":838.767,"text":"前值加熱菸的零組件將近26.4萬個set簡單來講就加熱菸有27萬多這麼多的加熱菸這兩個請問衛福部長我想他比較熟了我就我不要為難院長我就請教部長他是不是禁止進來是不是不免錢是是那是不是我會禁閉"},{"start":841.101,"end":865.816,"text":"我是不太清楚我們那個自貿區條例所定的違禁品的定義。你告訴我,對不對,自由貿易港區條例第15條,違禁品不可以進自貿區。你知道這裡有多少嗎?院長你看喔,全國反聯團體都在看喔。三億根的相應的量在自由貿易港區裡面。"},{"start":867.588,"end":869.509,"text":"為什麼可以進來?可不可以院長拜託你因為我問了衛福部"},{"start":898.021,"end":898.421,"text":"委員：賴士葆"},{"start":938.196,"end":946.648,"text":"謝謝賴委員、賴士葆的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備刑。報告院會,現在我們休息5分鐘。休息之後繼續"}]}},{"id":"150412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eebbcb5f28dc2de2c98ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a659d0ed36465ba0c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:11:23 - 10:27:11","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-03-26T10:27:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T10:11:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時11分）有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員早安。"],["林委員憶君：院長早。首先請教院長，自從全民健保實施十多年來，印象中，你覺得有哪一年是沒有虧損的呢？"],["陳院長建仁：詳細的情形我不太清楚，但是每一年我想我們大概都能夠來讓健保很好地營運。"],["林委員憶君：那健保署每次……"],["陳院長建仁：我們當它面臨到困難的時候，你也很清楚嘛！我們就會調漲費率或者是用不同的方法。"],["林委員憶君：對，這就是我後面要說的，就是健保署每次都會說要嚴格把關嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員憶君：但結果都是直接砍藥價，不然就是調漲健保費，增加民眾就醫上面的負擔，企圖讓全民買單，還是以藥養醫，這看起來衛福部和健保署好像惹得民怨還有無奈、很無辜也很冤枉，但其實整個大的問題，受害的都是民眾啦！本席也認為，對於衛福部還有健保署來說，這些問題都實在是非戰之罪啦！但是本席認為，健保嚴重的虧損問題本來就是衛福部在醫療制度上沒有站在民眾用藥的權益上而造成規劃錯誤的結果，所以在臺灣的醫療還有健保的制度上面，我是想要來談談長期很重視的一個結構上面的問題，就是醫藥分業。醫藥分業是臺灣體系上很重要的一個議題，雖然政府實施醫藥分業也20年了，但目前我國屬於比較特殊的雙軌制，就是醫院和診所都可以僱用藥師在院所內調劑，而我們看到很多先進的國家，現在已經完整地整個採納單軌制，單軌制就是院所完全釋出處方箋，包含歐美各國，還有鄰近的日本和韓國都已經開始推行完全分離的醫藥分業制度，甚至2000年才開始實施醫藥分業的韓國，處方箋的釋出到現在幾乎是百分百了。而長期在臺灣醫藥分業的問題中，其實大家也都知道、都有看到，首先是藥師對處方箋的獨立專業性，在一般的情形下，醫生大約都是診斷、治療還有開立處方箋，不調劑；藥師就是調劑前評估處方內容是否適當。但是醫師跟藥師如果同屬在一個醫療機構下，使藥師難以對處方提出客觀的建議和諮詢，加上這些醫生跟藥師互相的僱傭關係會造成藥師根本沒有辦法很客觀地評估用藥上面的合理性，還有藥價差嚴重的藥價問題會產生。院長、部長我們來回想一下疫情期間的事情，在新冠肺炎的期間，我們發現當初為了預防病人到大醫院，怕他們感染，所以患者在慢性病的病情穩定之下，有很多大醫院都願意提高慢箋處方的釋出意願，因為讓病人到家裡附近的社區藥局領藥，不但可以預防民眾為了單純領藥，再次回到醫院受到感染，而且可以增加病人在家裡附近社區藥局領藥的便利性，讓原本可以在社區藥局領藥的病人、家屬都不用再舟車勞頓到大醫院領藥，也可以受到社區藥局的就近照顧，顯然大醫院釋出處方箋的制度是可行的，只是醫院願不願意而已，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這個部分剛剛委員提到的一個是醫院、一個是診所，醫院裡面有許多處方是要當場處理的，你讓它釋出再回來的話，大概不太可行，比方針劑這類的釋出再回來的可行性不高。我們很感謝藥師在疫情期間在社區藥局方面給全體民眾的幫忙，讓慢箋釋出之後就能在社區藥局調劑，給民眾便利，也減少感染的可能性。但不管是醫院或基層的診所要把處方全部釋出的話，我們又必須考慮到偏遠地區、沒有社區藥局的地方，這樣會對民眾產生非常不利的影響，所以整體還是要全部去思考跟規劃。"],["林委員憶君：我現在先請問一下，以醫院的總額來看，一般的處方箋和慢性病的處方箋大概分別釋出多少呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對不起，我現在手上沒有這個資料。"],["林委員憶君：我再問一個問題，在藥品的市場上，大醫院藥品的議價和社區藥局的議價，你覺得哪個比較有優勢呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然量大的醫院的議價能力會比較高。"],["林委員憶君：院長，我想問一下，在健保砍藥價的制度上，藥廠被砍了藥價，藥廠覺得成本不符，所以直接退出市場，造成民眾無藥可用，這會發生缺藥危機，院長覺得這是我們樂見的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不是我們樂見的，可是一個藥會退出臺灣的市場有很多理由，藥價是其中之一，另外是有沒有新的藥物進來、有沒有其他同等藥效的藥物進來，而它的價格是有所競爭的，所以我們不能以單一藥物是不是離開這個市場就來判斷，而應該要看同品質的藥到底是不是有其他的競爭者，這在藥價的決定上也是一個很重要的參考。"],["林委員憶君：我們其實可以做一個更好的政策來選擇，如果我們讓六大公立醫院，也就是臺大、成大、三總、北榮、中榮還有高榮完全釋出處方箋制度，是否可以試辦看看呢？這樣是不是會讓藥品回歸到市場機制，也可以落實保障全民的用藥權益？對於藥價問題或許可以找到解方，這樣不是一舉兩得，政府和民眾都雙贏嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這不完全是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：我剛剛提過，不是所有的藥都釋出是最好的，比如說針劑等等，在社區藥局的備藥也是有限的，不可能所有的藥通通備齊，所以會造成民眾的不方便。如果委員講的是慢性處方箋的部分，這可以來嘗試，我們也可以在制度上做一點調整和考慮，這當然是可以研議的。"],["林委員憶君：其實我們可以做一個配套，依據剛才我講的醫藥分業將處方箋的釋出做一個配套，對民眾在用藥方面的權益還有在便民的情況下，我們都可以研討看看。剛才部長也有講到，如果六大公立醫院對於慢性處方箋的釋出可以提高百分比，這樣的話我覺得是可行的，因為之前疫情期間就是這樣，就有提高到30%、40%，這樣的政策我覺得民眾的反應都是蠻好的。"],["薛部長瑞元：其實現在的制度也沒有排除這些大醫院的處方箋釋出到社區藥局去調劑，而且事實上也已經有很多民眾是選擇在他家附近的社區藥局去調劑，所以這是一個宣導的問題，並不是法規上面有什麼樣的限制。"],["林委員憶君：你們可以設一個標準再來宣導，然後讓這個政策更完成、更好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是我們可以設定一個目標來推動。"],["陳院長建仁：對。委員，你可能也聽過嘛！在美國常常有像有一些VA Hospital（Veterans General Hospital），它發現奇怪，怎麼病人一出去以後，垃圾桶裡面有很多處方箋，就是因為他領藥不方便，他還要去藥房，結果就有很多病人就放棄了他的處方箋。我以前在美國念書的時候，就出現這樣的情況，這也就是當時我們也要顧慮到病人的方便性，以前、早期當然就是醫院給藥，病人是比較方便，那當然就失去了藥師對於藥效，還有副作用的另外一個防護。"],["林委員憶君：可是在疫情的情況下，社區藥局就是聽到民眾的一些反映……"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我是覺得多方面考量。"],["林委員憶君：他們覺得就近可以拿藥是非常方便的。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過，委員剛剛有提到一個，在醫院裡面的藥師沒有辦法發揮功能，這一句話我是不贊成的啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！不贊成！"],["薛部長瑞元：在醫院裡面的藥師仍然有秉持他的專業在做他應該做的事情，並不是只因為他受僱於醫院，然後他對這些藥都沒有什麼發言權，不會！"],["林委員憶君：因為我剛才有講僱傭關係，僱傭關係的情況下給醫生建議有一些用藥處方上面的問題時，大部分醫生幾乎都不採用。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，在醫院裡面反而藥師的建議是比較強的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是在基層診所跟社區藥局之間，這種建議反而是弱的，就是藥師對於這個醫師的處方有意見，然後要回歸過去，在社區藥局我所知道現在這個情形是比較弱的。"],["林委員憶君：所以問題又回來了嘛！全部釋出的話當然就是好的，醫生用醫生的專業來診斷，藥師用藥師的專業……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是要考慮到病人的方便性。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我舉個例子，譬如說我拿到一個醫師的處方箋，我到你那裡去拿藥，你說這個藥不行，那你就跟我講「你回去跟這個醫師說開的藥不對！」那我是病人，我愣住了說「Oh！My god！那我還要再去看一次醫師，然後呢？」然後又說「我在醫院拿會不會比較方便？」所以這個是需要多方，病人、醫師、藥師各方面……"],["林委員憶君：所以我就是說要做一個很好的配套，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：一個體制，對、對、對，要配套。"],["林委員憶君：現在我們還是要跟國際接軌嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員憶君：現在就是每一個地方、各國都已經醫藥分業了，但是我們就是還在做雙軌制，明明就是可以單軌制的，是不是我們也要往前再進一步呢？對不對？這個可能是我們要來考慮一下的問題。","好，現在我再來講下一個，因為還有一個缺藥的問題，藥價不斷地調降，藥廠都不願意生產藥了，然後藥局接到慢性處方箋都虧損，最後倒楣的都是生病的民眾，這樣的藥價問題不斷地在惡性循環，所以月初我在3月7日委員會中質詢有提出意見，希望衛福部可以在調降藥價的情況下，要考慮一下現實的情況才可以符合民意，譬如說我那一天建議關於連續處方箋的問題一般都是開3個月嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員憶君：然後這個處方箋是否在未來的3個月都要改成就醫日期那一天的藥價為主呢？這樣是不是能保證患者後面兩個月的用藥呢？可是衛福部一紙行政命令就可以讓民眾用藥的一些權益上面受到保障，然後藥局也不會虧損的那麼慘，所以我覺得每次政府都在調降藥價上面都調降的非常開心，可是沒有考慮到人民的生活，難道藥師就不是人嗎？對不對？為什麼要把藥師當成壞人呢？藥師是第一線要解決民眾用藥的專業人士，如果提供民眾用藥的藥局虧損，最後大家都經營不下去，導致病人都沒有藥吃，然後也沒有藥拿，這樣真的對人民是好事嗎？你們也知道疫情期間藥師真的全心全意都在配合協助政府的各個防疫政策，辛苦的醫療人員有沒有被注重呢？那一天我在委員會提出的慢性處方箋3個月的這件事情，都沒有得到一個滿意的答案。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分跟委員報告，其實我們每一次調完藥價之後的公布跟開始實施還是會有一個緩衝期，差不多是1個月。我知道委員在關心的是社區藥局，本來它的給付比較高，所以進價可能也比較高，當健保調降藥價之後，給付就不會那麼高，但是成本還是一樣，這個我瞭解。"],["林委員憶君：我說的是慢性處方箋。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是它的差距也只不過是在短短一、兩個月中間而已，為了這件事情，整個系統要重新修正的話，成本會很高。"],["林委員憶君：我覺得這是可以的，因為你們常常在調藥價，你兩個月調一次、5個月調一次的話……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，沒有常常，一年一次而已。"],["林委員憶君：但是有些東西還是有稍微調整，沒有那麼多項，可是……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是社區藥局準備的備藥量不會很多，真正會有損失的其實金額非常少，所以以成本效益來看，為了這件事情，整個健保系統要改，我覺得這樣是不太……"],["林委員憶君：沒有，這是一個很大的問題……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該沒有很大，這個可以來算，這個沒有很大。"],["林委員憶君：因為大家也知道，最近缺藥、藥廠也不做藥了，對不對？所以臺灣的醫療現在都是不進反退，這樣下去我們是不是都要去神農嘗百草了？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在新藥一直在進來啊！"],["林委員憶君：是不是大家回到古時候，沒有藥醫，難道每個人都在等死嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，請衛福部把相關資料統計一下，讓委員知道到底差多少，這樣才是比較公平的講法，如果需要怎麼調整再來調，好不好？"],["林委員憶君：對，那一段時間社區藥局的藥師也忙翻天，又為了口罩實名制還有一大堆事情，我們也不希望有功無賞，然後打破要賠。"],["主席：謝謝林委員憶君的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第4號賴委員士葆質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.52971875,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.38596875,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.65471875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.79784375,"end":43.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.69471875,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.882843750000006,"end":57.625343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.82784375000001,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.87846875,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.10096875,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.61909375,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.99034375000001,"end":71.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.36034375,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.99971875,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.47034375000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.18159375,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.29846875000001,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.33846875,"end":177.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.62346875,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.56409375,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.36971875,"end":184.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.65534375000001,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.00471875000002,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.45971875,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.90909375,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.19846875000002,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.88596875000002,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.36596875000004,"end":263.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.95596875,"end":267.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":270.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.21221875000003,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.84409375,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.16471875,"end":278.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.98221875,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.54721875,"end":288.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.03221875,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.65221875000003,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.13346875,"end":339.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.10096875000005,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.85159375,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.21721875000003,"end":350.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.09846875,"end":351.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.41909375,"end":359.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.23221875,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.77159375,"end":369.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.59346875,"end":379.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.98846875000004,"end":414.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.90721875,"end":427.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.60971875,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.26284375,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.72221875,"end":444.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.45096875,"end":444.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.46784375000004,"end":444.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.51846875,"end":444.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.53534375000004,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.55221875,"end":444.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.02471875000003,"end":446.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.89784375000005,"end":446.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.98221875,"end":483.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.03284375000004,"end":447.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.11909375000005,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.85034375000004,"end":481.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.95971875000004,"end":507.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.96846875000006,"end":522.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.24471875,"end":544.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.76034375,"end":555.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.33659375,"end":559.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.0278437500001,"end":573.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.2578437500001,"end":574.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.5065937500001,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.40909375,"end":599.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1653437500001,"end":601.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.9115937500001,"end":607.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.9453437500001,"end":602.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.9240937500001,"end":603.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.97034375,"end":604.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.1897187500001,"end":604.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.6284687500001,"end":604.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.96596875,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.0672187499999,"end":605.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.4465937500001,"end":628.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.42034375,"end":614.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.05534375,"end":640.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.46721875,"end":638.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.2265937500001,"end":639.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.6397187499999,"end":645.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.48284375,"end":645.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.60096875,"end":645.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.92159375,"end":651.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.92909375,"end":652.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.05971875,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.3115937500002,"end":661.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.17221875,"end":669.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.4878437500001,"end":667.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.55534375,"end":667.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.6228437500001,"end":667.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.65659375,"end":667.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.7747187500001,"end":667.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.82096875,"end":671.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.0147187500002,"end":688.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.8347187500001,"end":696.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.39909375,"end":701.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.35659375,"end":699.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.3897187500002,"end":701.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.86221875,"end":711.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.54409375,"end":717.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.62346875,"end":763.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.8315937500001,"end":736.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.97909375,"end":769.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.22284375,"end":794.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.94471875,"end":818.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.14346875,"end":824.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.1340937500001,"end":828.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.3190937500001,"end":835.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.3390937500001,"end":842.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":842.61659375,"end":845.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.60346875,"end":846.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.5990937500001,"end":864.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.26034375,"end":856.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":864.3178437500001,"end":872.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.2365937500001,"end":877.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.0165937500001,"end":879.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.6953437500001,"end":883.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.69471875,"end":888.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.76971875,"end":891.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":891.85784375,"end":892.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.4272187500001,"end":896.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.75159375,"end":898.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":899.6372187500001,"end":901.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.69596875,"end":905.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.6028437500001,"end":916.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.1297187500002,"end":908.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.7665937500001,"end":908.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.42471875,"end":909.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.44159375,"end":910.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.82534375,"end":910.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.42784375,"end":920.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.74846875,"end":921.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.22034375,"end":935.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":932.59409375,"end":933.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.1084687500002,"end":938.3484687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":21.581,"end":43.493,"text":"有請院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢院長早安院長早首先請教院長自從全民健保實施10多年來印象中你覺得有哪一年是沒有虧損的呢?"},{"start":46.832,"end":69.814,"text":"這個詳細的情形我不太清楚,但是每一年我想我們大概都能夠來讓健保很好的營運。我們當它面臨到困難的時候,你也很清楚,我們就會調漲費率或者是用不同的方法。這就是我後面要說的,就是健保署我們每次都會說我們都要嚴格把關,對不對?"},{"start":71.075,"end":91.233,"text":"但是結果我們都是直接砍藥價,不然就是調漲健保費,增加民眾的就醫上面的負擔,企圖讓全民買單,還是移藥養醫,其實這看起來齁,其實衛福部和健保署好像惹得民怨啊,還有無奈很無辜啊,也很冤枉,但其實其實整個大"},{"start":91.994,"end":119.615,"text":"的問題受害的其實都是民眾本席也認為對於衛福部還有健保署來說其實這些問題都實在是非戰之罪但是本席認為健保嚴重的虧損問題本來就是衛福部在醫療制度上沒有站在民眾用藥的權益上而造成規劃錯誤的結果所以在臺灣的醫療還有健保的制度上面我是想要來談談長期很重視的一個結構上面的問題"},{"start":120.536,"end":145.991,"text":"就是醫藥分業那醫藥分業是臺灣體系上很重要的一個議題雖然我們政府其實實施醫藥分業也實施了20年了但目前我國屬於比較特殊的雙軌制雙軌制就是說醫院和診所都可以僱用藥師在院所內做調劑而我們看到很多先進的國家其實現在已經完整的整個採納當軌制"},{"start":148.252,"end":174.238,"text":"當委之就是院所完全釋出處方簽,包含歐美各國還有臨近我們日本和韓國都已經開始推行完全分離的醫藥分業的制度。甚至2000年才開始實施的醫藥分業的韓國處方簽的釋出到現在幾乎都是百分百了。而我們長期在臺灣醫藥分業的問題中其實我們大家也都知道都有看到首先是藥師對處方簽的獨立的專業性。"},{"start":177.679,"end":198,"text":"在一般的情形下醫生大約都是診斷治療還有開立處方簽不調劑藥師就是調劑前評估處方內容是否適當但是醫師跟藥師如果同屬在一個醫療的機構下使藥師難以對處方提出客觀的建議和質詢"},{"start":199.522,"end":227.659,"text":"其實加上這些醫生跟藥師互相的僱傭關係會造成藥師根本沒有辦法很客觀的評估用藥上面的合理性還有藥價差嚴重的藥價的問題會產生所以我現在就是說院長部長我們來回想一下就是回想一下疫情期間的事情在新冠肺炎的期間我們有發現當初為了預防病人到大醫院會發生他怕他們感染"},{"start":228.439,"end":250.601,"text":"所以患者在慢性病的病情穩定之下其實有很多大醫院都願意提高慢遷處方釋出的意願因為讓病人到家裡附近的社區藥局去領藥不但可以預防民眾為了單純領藥再次回到醫院受到感染而且可以增加病人在家裡附近社區藥局領藥的便利性"},{"start":251.261,"end":270.236,"text":"那原本可以在社區藥局領藥的病人家屬都可以不用在坐車勞頓到大醫院去領藥,也可以受到社區藥局的照顧,就近的照顧。所以顯然大醫院釋出處方簽的制度是可以行的,只是醫院願不願意而已,對不對?"},{"start":271.503,"end":284.333,"text":"跟委員報告齁那這一個部分的話其實剛剛委員提到是一個是醫院一個是在診所那醫院裡面有許多的處方是要當場去處理的你把它釋出出去再回來的話那個"},{"start":285.786,"end":300.733,"text":"大概不太可行,比方說政績等等這一類的,這個的話釋出再回來是可行性不高的。那我們很感謝藥師在疫情期間在社區藥局方面給這個全體民眾的一個幫忙。"},{"start":303.234,"end":303.414,"text":"﹚林憶君"},{"start":316.192,"end":334.647,"text":"如果說基層或者是不管是醫院或基層的診所,他要把處方釋出全部釋出的話,我們又必須要考慮到偏遠地區沒有社區藥局的地方,這樣子的話會對於民眾產生非常不利的影響。"},{"start":338.068,"end":363.54,"text":"現在我先請問一下醫院的總額來看一般的處方簽和患病的處方簽分別釋出大概多少呢?對不起我現在手上沒有這個資料那我再問一個問題就是說在藥品的市場上大醫院藥品的議價和社區藥局的議價你覺得哪一個比較優勢呢?當然量大的醫院的話議價能力是會比較高的"},{"start":363.84,"end":379.054,"text":"那院長我想問一下在健保砍藥價的制度上藥廠都被砍了藥價然後藥廠覺得成本不服所以直接退出市場造成民眾無藥可用這種會發生缺藥危機那院長你覺得這個是我們樂見的嗎當然不是我們樂見的可是"},{"start":382.779,"end":408.404,"text":"一個藥會退出台灣的市場有很多的理由藥價是其中之一另外也是有沒有新的藥物進來還有沒有其他的同等要效的藥物進來而它的價格跟它是有所競爭所以我們不能夠以單一的藥物是不是離開這個市場就來判斷而應該要看同品質的藥到底是不是有其他的競爭者"},{"start":409.544,"end":427.039,"text":"這個是在要價的決定上也是一個很重要的一個參考所以其實我們其實可以做一個更好的政策來選擇其實如果我們採用讓六大公立醫院就是臺大、成大、三總、北榮、中榮還有高榮完全釋出處方簽制度"},{"start":427.739,"end":443.256,"text":"是否可以試辦看看呢?這樣是不是會讓藥品回歸到市場的機制,然後也可以落實保障全民的用藥的權益,那樣更對藥價問題或許可以找到解方,這樣不是一舉兩得,政府和民眾都雙贏嗎?"},{"start":447.21,"end":462.118,"text":"對,因為我剛剛提到過,不是所有的藥都釋出是最好的,比如說針劑等等這一些。那在社區藥局他的備藥也是有限的,所以他不可能所有這些所有的藥通通備齊。"},{"start":464.759,"end":482.986,"text":"這個會造成民眾的一個不方便,所以這個是可以來嘗試,如果說委員在講的是慢性處方牽的這個部分的話,那當然我們可以來在制度上做一點點調整來做這樣子的一個考慮,這個當然是可以研議的。"},{"start":483.046,"end":508.475,"text":"其實我們可以做一個配套其實剛才我講的醫藥分業的話如果是說處方簽的釋出做一個配套其實可以讓如果民眾在用藥方面的權益還有就是說便民的情況下這種事我們都可以來研討看看的剛才那個部長有講到說如果我們慢性處方簽可以六大公立醫院提高他們的百分比"},{"start":509.355,"end":514.439,"text":"其實現在的制度也沒有排除說這個處方宣釋處可以到這些大醫院可以到社區藥局去做調劑而且事實上也已經很多民眾"},{"start":534.394,"end":535.154,"text":"我們可以設定一個目標來做推動﹖對﹖"},{"start":560.623,"end":577.032,"text":"委員你可能也聽過吧,在美國常常有像說有一些VA Hospital,Veteran General Hospital,他發現說奇怪,怎麼這個病人一出去以後這個垃圾桶裡面很多儲房間,就是因為他領藥不方便,他還要去藥房,結果"},{"start":577.592,"end":578.713,"text":"在疫情的情況下其實社區藥局他們就是"},{"start":602.206,"end":624.189,"text":"聽到民眾的一些反應,其實他們覺得究竟可以拿藥是非常方便的。不過委員剛剛有提到一個說在醫院裡面的藥師沒有辦法發揮功能這一句話我是不贊成的啦在醫院裡面的藥師仍然他有秉持他的專業在做他應該做的事情並不是說只是因為他受雇於醫院然後他對這些"},{"start":625.77,"end":628.312,"text":"我跟委員報告,在醫院裡面反而這種藥師的建議是比較強的。如果是在這個基層診所跟社區藥局之間這種建議反而是弱的。"},{"start":651.966,"end":651.986,"text":"委員"},{"start":671.866,"end":687.215,"text":"我舉個例子比如說我拿到一個醫師的主房間我到你那裡去拿藥你說這個藥不行那你就跟我講說你回去跟這個醫師說你開的藥不對那我是病人我認住了說oh my god那我還要再去看醫師然後呢"},{"start":689.356,"end":711.663,"text":"那他說我在醫院拿會不會比較方便,所以這個是需要多方,病人、醫師、藥師的方面,一個體制,對對對,要配套。現在就是每一個地方每一個各國都已經醫藥分業了,但是我們就是還在做到雙軌制,明明就是可以當軌制的,是不是我們也要往前再進一步呢?"},{"start":712.983,"end":738.016,"text":"這個可能我們要來考慮一下的問題。好,現在我再來講下一個。因為還有一個缺藥的問題。藥價都不斷的調降。藥廠都不願意生產藥了。然後藥局接到慢性處方箭都虧損,最後倒霉的都是生病的民眾。這樣藥價的問題不斷的在惡性循環。所以月初的時候,其實我有在3月7號委員會中有質詢,有提出意見。"},{"start":739.136,"end":739.176,"text":"﹚林憶君"},{"start":753.933,"end":769.562,"text":"此外,是否在未來的三個月都要改成就醫日期那一天的藥價為主呢?這樣是不是能保證患者後面兩個月的用藥呢?可是衛福部一直的行政命令可以就可以讓保障民眾的"},{"start":770.282,"end":770.842,"text":"﹚民眾用藥的"},{"start":795.054,"end":824.194,"text":"要局虧損最後大家都經營不下去了所以導致病人都沒有要吃然後也沒有要拿這樣是真的對人民是好事嗎所以疫情期間像你們也知道就是說要是真的全心全意都在配合協助政府的各個防疫的政策嗎難道辛苦的醫療人員有沒有被注重呢所以針對那一天我在委員會提出的慢性處方前三個月的"},{"start":825.325,"end":845.14,"text":"這件事情,其實我都沒有得到一個滿意的答案。這個部分跟委員報告,其實我們在每一次調完要價之後的公佈,會是有一個公佈跟開始實施的時候還是會有一個緩衝期,差不多一個月。那我知道委員在關心的是社區要求。"},{"start":845.84,"end":869.38,"text":"當它本來幾戶比較高,所以它進價的時候可能是比較高。當這個健保條件要價之後的話,那幾戶就沒有那麼高。但是成本還是一樣,這個我了解。但是它的差距也只不過是在短短的一兩個月中間而已啦。那為了這一個事情的話,如果要整個的系統要重新去做修正的話,"},{"start":870.02,"end":876.725,"text":"但是社區藥局的這個所謂準備的備藥的話,它的量不會很多。真正會就是說有損失的其實是金額非常少。所以以成本效益的來看的話,為了這件事情然後整個健保的"},{"start":899.98,"end":900.901,"text":"委員請衛福部把相關的資料"},{"start":927.032,"end":938.009,"text":"通緝一下讓委員知道到底差有差多少啦這樣比較公平的轉法阿如果需要怎麼樣來調再來調好不好因為其實這段時間設立藥局其實要是也麻煩"}]}},{"id":"150411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee1346e0c255ee92e18ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6a1ba94de77a37a3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:40:21 - 10:11:15","影片長度":"00:30:54","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":1854,"end_time":"2024-03-26T10:11:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T09:40:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":151,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時40分）謝謝院長。有請陳院長跟衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長、衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長還有部長早。我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人，醫學的唯一解答就是代理孕母，我跟我先生也偷跑過，但是後來我們決定放棄，曝光而且公開呼籲要推動代孕解禁，目的是要幫助其他的病友有機會實現他們的心願。我一生從來沒有預期能夠今天在國會殿堂有30分鐘的時間來談今天的主題，我的主題就是「等待文明來解禁代孕」。等待文明來解禁代孕！院長，20年前，我寄了這本書給您。"],["陳院長建仁：有，謝謝你，而且那本書寫得很好，你為病人團體所提供的呼籲，我很感動。"],["陳委員昭姿：神啊！為什麼我不能有一個孩子？那時候是2004年的現在，當時我們臺灣剛經歷過SARS，您被認為是一個成功的任務型署長，所以我在蝴蝶頁上寫著「敬愛的署長，感謝您以專業跟愛心來守護台灣，我祈禱您的慈悲與智慧等同您的職位與權力。」幾天之後，我去衛生署向您陳情，而且我還指控人工生殖管理委員會是違憲的，他們從來沒有讓病人進去說話，他們沒有法令卻用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人代孕，我還向您指控他們是一言堂，裡面充滿著、充斥著反對的聲音，連一個支持的聲音都沒有。院長，後來幾個月之後，您用臺灣第一次的公民會議回應了我的需求，我在此再向院長致謝，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：不會，不過很可惜代理孕母的事情沒有很快能夠實現，我也很遺憾，而且你對所有病人的照護和關心，我真的到現在都還很感動。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長。院長，但是最近有一些反對者說我當年是逼迫您來做這個公民會議。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：我何德何能！所以是不是在今天的質詢臺上，你能夠幫忙釐清當時為什麼您願意舉行一個公民會議，你的初衷跟你的想法是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想在2004年那個年代，對於很多新的一些醫療措施怎麼樣來進行，實際上很多連醫界還有公民權利的學界也都沒有很瞭解，而當時最好的一個方法就是用公民審議的方式，讓公民在得到很完整知識的情況下，能夠來做決定，所以我也採納了我們臺大社會科學院同仁以及法律學院同仁的建議來實施這一個審議會。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，謝謝院長您的釐清，這對我非常的重要。我也想告訴院長跟部長，在2002年的時候，賴清德立委就提出了支持代孕的法案，當時連署人也有蕭美琴立委、陳其邁立委，提案人跟連署人總共超出了30位，可見當時立委們對這個制度、對這個法案是有共識的。這份提案的總說明，因為是發生在22年前，有它的時空背景、它的用詞，我稍微唸一下，一個人不管是先天或後天的原因，缺乏傳宗接代所必需的生殖要素，這是不可彌補的身體缺憾，應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。我們的社會仍然相當重視傳宗接代，在社會價值觀沒有改變之前，對於這些生殖機能有障礙的人，應該用寬大包容的心來幫助他們，而不是一味地要求他們放棄生育權、被強迫去收養小孩。請問院長，準總統跟準副總統在22年前就提出不應該一味地要求我們放棄生育權，這個平等法案您支持嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：薛部長，您近期一直說這個法案是有爭議的，您知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎？你知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢？部長，請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委在22年前就提出了這樣的法案，您會告訴他們說，你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎？薛部長請回答，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是一個事實，對於這件事情，也就是人工代孕的這個事實，社會上是有不同的看法。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！您自己也提到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖，你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼地認真，他很努力蒐集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持，而且他還做了一個調查，調查這些立委們，包括當時國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委，跨越藍綠總共超過30個人以上簽署了這個法案，而且他們的民調是這樣的，他們確認代孕的需求是存在的、是正確的、是需要大於不需要的，而且當時同意支持代孕制度的民進黨立委占了56%，是最高的，這個要讓部長跟院長都瞭解。","我想跟兩位首長談我們的故事跟人生，有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念，說不孕不是病，所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商師說，我們只需要群體的心理治療，還有一位前臺北市社會局顧局長，他說不孕不是病，為什麼會痛苦？有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論，我也曾經被保健處處長指著說，昭姿，你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說，人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說，不孕的解答就是收養，但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢？某位前法務部部長在電視上公然跟我說，收養跟親生一樣好，不過他自己是親生的。也有一位前總統公開呼籲，因為那個年代臺灣有很多棄嬰，他說臺灣有很多可憐的棄嬰，請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛，去收養這些小孩，這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生。","人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰，對生命改變了很多，例如說沒有精子或卵子，我們也有機會有下一代，這就是所謂的捐精、捐卵；例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室，而不是輸卵管。人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結，譬如說代理孕母；人工生殖技術把自古以來生育連結的連續性分割了，每一個分割點就是診斷不孕或治療不孕非常關鍵的因素；人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助一些罹患重病的病人，包括癌症，他們可能因為治療而失去生育力，但是仍然抱著一線希望，未來還是可以保有追求幸福的期待。","我要講的是，代孕其實是奶媽的延伸，古代的人媽媽奶水不夠，他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子，那我們呢？我們就是子宮不健康啊！我需要有一個溫暖的子宮，讓我的孩子長大。","人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變，但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人用這些科技，這是多麼的殘忍及不人道！我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議，為什麼子宮有障礙的人就是不能使用這個科技？整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰與質疑，所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人，我會問自己，我有資格結婚嗎？我有資格戀愛嗎？我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢？什麼時候講？對誰講？我曾經為一對竹科情侶的女方家長做見證人，他媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人，切結書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是應男方的要求，因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家。請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼？結婚的時候，難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎？結婚以後，最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎？其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾，曾經有一位臺大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救，他的女兒嚷著要休學，為什麼呢？因為課堂上要做理學檢查，同學們互相做理學檢查，他擔心自己的秘密被曝光。其實我們就醫時，我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說？在我們的婚姻過程當中，我被要求做子宮頸抹片檢查的時候，我該怎麼辦呢？所以有時候我有不得不的謊言，我在美國唸書的時候，我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉，他擔心我的身體秘密會曝光；我常常祈禱我不要生病住院，否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情；看病的時候，其實我們是充滿焦慮的，因為合格的醫師一定會問一句，上次你的月經什麼時候來？這個跟用藥是有關的，這個時候我只好編造一個日期給他。","曝光後，我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說，他會說沒有小孩也很好，但是他們都有小孩；更多人說收養與親生的一樣好，但是他們絕對是親生孩子。那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢？就是要我們去收養小孩，收養棄嬰、收養孤兒，請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎？請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎？請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎？各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力，以至於30年來只有我和藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕，30年來只有我陳昭姿一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人，為什麼呢？因為他們不敢站出來，他們的壓力太大了！不孕不是一個人的事，至少是兩個人的事，兩個家庭，甚至兩代家庭的事情。院長、部長，我們還要受到凌遲多久呢？","我收養小孩了，我的孩子被公認是個暖男，他在學校非常的活躍，也得過利他獎，但是不要忘記，也有一位社經地位很高的政治人物，他的收養案例是失敗的，孩子30幾歲以後，他們終止了收養關係，可見收養不是一件容易的事情！不孕者的選項是什麼？終生無後嗎？收養小孩嗎？還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技？我要談的重點是，其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精、捐卵，收養本身，讓我來形容，因為我做過了，我收養了孩子，它是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合，三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上，收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題，收養身世的告知是蠻難為的，什麼時機是適合的呢？還有收養孩子本身，他對自己身世的感受跟認知是什麼？社會外面、局外人有時候會對孩子有好奇或探問。所以我要告訴兩位首長，其實收出養這件事情不但是出養家庭、收養家庭，還有孩子本身可能都要做一輩子的功課，他們內心長期是受到一些挑戰的。我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長，因為他們負責收出養業務，我非常驚訝，但是也如預期的，完全沒有資料，臺灣沒有這些收出養的資料彙整、分析評估，你們知道嗎？其他多少國家對收養法不斷的檢討、不斷的改進，甚至英國幾十版的修正，為什麼呢？因為收養的問題層出不窮。","接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差，醫學生殖科技進步了，可以幫助不孕原因的診斷跟治療，但是我們的感受是，子宮有障礙，不是不救，是不肯救。生殖科技也是為了幫助人民、增進幸福，滿足他的心願，但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運，禁止我們使用科技，所以有資源的人只好迴避禁令，偷偷在國內，是的，偷偷在國內，包括我都曾經在國內進行代孕，或遠到海外去執行代孕。有關人工生殖法的部分我也很有意見，捐精、捐卵，尤其是捐精這個部分，在默許了十幾年之後，在2007年才立法管理，而且據我瞭解，我也向國健署瞭解過，捐精沒有追蹤，後果堪慮啊！代孕那麼清楚，卻要阻擋，經過兩次公民會議的討論，長期被擱置。我覺得這是歧視、這是偏見，我在國會殿堂這裡要表達最嚴重的抗議，對代孕是歧視、是偏見，我要提出最嚴重的抗議！","我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕，他們處罰的對象是醫師，不讓醫師來幫病人做，最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照，所以我一輩子不會說合法化，我講的是代孕解禁，我講的是法制化，因為我們從來沒有犯過法。我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願、請願，我參與過無數的公聽會，我一直訴諸媒體，甚至醫學課堂，我在1996年用真實姓名去面對大眾，用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕。在2010年SARS之後，教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程，當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見，我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課，我談的就是代孕，那一次的課程、那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室，讓我覺得這是遲來的正義，我也受到非常強烈的震撼。","請問各位有人看過民國80年的報紙嗎？這份是民國80年的報紙，民國80年10月23日的報紙，民生報，它的標題是「一個沒有子宮女人的深閨怨」，後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的，子標題是「沒有法，故事就永無結局」。其實當時民生報錯把筆名的位置放了真名，讓我痛不欲生，後來總編李淑娟向我道歉，第二天我們做了一些補救，讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章，我指稱這個病人是我的朋友，不是我自己，但是為了幫助他，我用第一人稱來稱呼他。其實那個病人是我自己，只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情。我當初在呼籲代孕解禁時的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益，因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家、歐美國家通過了代孕，他們沒有少子化國安問題，也沒有傳宗接代的壓力，那他們為什麼會同意呢？因為他們認為這是人權。","但是時至今日，我想院長和部長都知道，臺灣的生育率一直都是倒數前兩名，2017年開始我們出生的孩子人數已經少於死亡的人數，我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀，在我的辦公室門口會貼著這兩個數字─出生人數和死亡人數，上個月出生人數不到1萬人，已經破了新低。但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求、呼籲、幫助健康的人生小孩，這是沒有錯的，對於無法生育的人呢？對於有代孕需求的人卻絕口不提，為什麼？我在這裡想請問部長，對於少數偏激、自私、健康、充滿意識形態、充滿被害妄想症的一群反對者，他們的意見有那麼重要嗎？我們需求者的意見呢？還有我們的心願呢？還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢？難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎？難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實完全是有非常大的爭議，因為這牽涉到第三人，剛剛委員所提出來的，2002年那時候賴清德副總統當立委有推這個案子，但是後來沒有通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我想要告訴你……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以表示那個爭議還是很大。"],["陳委員昭姿：請不要再說爭議了，好嗎？衛福部很多東西是爭議的，照做不誤啊！爭議這件事情，我可以告訴你，因為全臺灣只有我有最多數字，告訴我願意代孕的女性比需求的女性還多，我手上是一堆名單，請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕的心願，這也是他的權利，他想成全別人。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這要經過大家的討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：請部長瞭解一下什麼叫公民會議，公民會議是個簡稱，原來叫公民共識會議，這是民主國家行之有年的一種審議式民主，公民會議就是讓一群不具有專業知識基礎的公民經過報名，然後隨機取樣的。他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論，找出他們想要瞭解的問題，在一個公開的論壇上向專家學者們詢問，他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們備詢，並在有一定程度的知識和訊息的基礎下，他們討論、辯論、找出結論、找出共識，做成報告公諸於世，交給國家作為政策參考，這就叫公民會議。院長，我知道您還記得您幫我主持的這次會議，這是多麼嚴謹，而且參與者是高度瞭解所有資訊的，所謂well informed的，就是充分知情的一群公民，他們的結論是同意的，而且院長答應我半年後有進度。陳院長，我現在還在苦苦等待您當年的承諾，您可以兌現您的承諾嗎？當時您只是衛生署署長，現在您貴為行政院院長，您可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當時公民審議會議之後，我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出，但是很可惜在立法院的討論，就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣，都沒有在大院裡面得到通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，不好意思！我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策，不是什麼都訴諸民意，我看到民意不高的也照做了，有心做就能夠做，想做就能夠做。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以這裡面就是有不同的……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們來回顧一下兩次公民會議的結論，第一次是在2004年，就是您擔任署長的時候，當時有兩項結論，第一個是同意有條件開放代孕。第二項很特別，因為我剛剛提到很多人叫我們收養，不要去搞代孕了，我很成功的說服那群公民，把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡。有關收養制度，他們是這麼講的，不應該因為有需要收養的孩童，而將收養強加於不孕者，並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲之道德批判，這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷，都是可採行的管道，這麼清楚、具有邏輯，還具有價值觀的結論，竟然在20年前的公民會議出現，實在是令人敬佩跟感動。"],["陳院長建仁：對，他們很了不起，他們當時得到完整的資訊……"],["陳委員昭姿：我讓部長也一邊瞭解公民會議的水準。第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑媞署長的時代，我唸一下其結論：不孕委託者同時提供精跟卵，就同時都有了，應該早日開放；不孕委託者僅提供其中一個精或卵，也應該予以開放。無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕，政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作，政府要積極介入！當時國健署副署長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說：衛生署傾向支持代孕；然而一延宕，那時是2012年，又經過12年了。","歷年來我們做了多少努力，1996年行政院法規會陳美伶主委曾推出甲、乙兩版的草案；2010年7月國健署舉行兩天的國際研討會，邀請英美專家跟當事者到臺灣來分享討論，從此以後，國健署非常積極地召開會議，最後在2016年提出了草案；這當中，國健署做了三次全國性的民調，即2010年、2013年及2015年，而大體上的結論是六成人支持，兩成人不反對，所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的。但是儘管有國際研討會、兩次公民會議、全國性的民調三次，以及無數的公聽會跟國健署的草案，到今天人工生殖法還是選擇性的無視於子宮有障礙者的代孕需求。院長，一個攸關生育權的法案，您覺得延宕的30年是合情、合理、合法、合憲嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們再繼續來努力啦！不過……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長跟部長，你們要凌遲我們多久呢？還要繼續凌遲我們的需求者多久呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，最終的解決還是必須要在立法院，我們可以儘量在各個過程把它縮短，把草案送到立法院。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我聽到你要儘量做，您是一位婦產科醫師。我現在談反對者的理由跟意識形態，這麼多年來，我們來看反對者反對了什麼，30年來理由一成不變耶！反對者指控我們說這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡、不健康，但是明明就有很多、很多國外的研究指出，他們比較透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩，在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別，好嘛？這種臆測之詞，這個是空想之詞！完全不符合科學的驗證，這是第一個，大家都可以去查這份報告。","第二個，反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化，我想相對於妻子跟媳婦，代孕者難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎？他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎？我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我代孕嗎？你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼？我想院長或部長應該知道，倫理學的基礎就是自主性，autonomy是最高的原則，自主性是非常重要的，當然不孕夫妻可以選擇生或不生，可以選擇要不要去委託代孕，代孕者有百分百的權利決定要不要幫人家代孕，他有百分之百的決定權，哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢？那些反對者，如果我是你的女兒，如果我是你最愛的親人，你還會這樣指控我嗎？還有一些人指控代孕者會因為社經弱勢被欺壓，非常感謝另外一位委員陳菁徽委員，他也是婦產科醫師，他在質詢或是在公聽會的時候都清楚地指出，他用了最新的一篇加拿大研究報告，在287位代理孕母中，大家都是基於利他心態（helping others），幫助別人的心態去代孕，他們認為代孕是在助人、在幫助人擁有一個家庭，而且53%的人是大學教育以上，50%的人是有工作的，他不是經濟弱勢，也不是貧窮者。","院長、部長，從曝光到今天，我從來都不是為自己，但是我背後站了一群有需求的人，曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待，終至絕望，正式進入醫師的傷心檔案，兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎？傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎？院長、部長，那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命。所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去，放在心上帶回去，將心比心，成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界，希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。院長，我再提醒您，我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的眼，要做一支小蠟燭照亮臺灣，院長，我希望你能夠秉持這個觀念、秉持這個信念，為我們這群弱勢的病人發光，成為他們的光，好嗎？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你為不孕症者反映這些心聲，我覺得你很勇敢，而且很慈悲、很善良，這件事情我們會全力以赴，跟各界再來做最深入的溝通，希望在短期內就有很好的成果。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，也期許部長，謝謝部長，謝謝院長跟部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員昭姿質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第3位林委員憶君質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.65159375,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.11534375,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.106593750000002,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.48096875,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.033468750000004,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.399718750000005,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.56846875,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.34846875,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.37346875,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.330968750000004,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.064718750000004,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.431593750000005,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.439718750000004,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.447843750000004,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.797843750000006,"end":62.99159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.08846875,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.60284375,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.04971875000001,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.19284375000001,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.49159375,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.42346875,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.66346875,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.29596875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.80159375000001,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.88971875,"end":95.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.79659375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.49659375,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.79159375,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.15409375,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.29721875000001,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.48284375,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.18159375,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.71284375,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.36221875000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.96471875,"end":131.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.43659375000001,"end":132.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.41096875,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.77784375000002,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.45659375,"end":139.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.40096875,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.57346875000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.39596875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.21409375000002,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.73659375,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.66034375,"end":160.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.49534375000002,"end":162.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.49909375000001,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":166.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.73471875,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.67096875000001,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.57346875000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.81784375,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.88096875000002,"end":177.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.77534375000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.17596875,"end":189.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.02346875,"end":183.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.18284375000002,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.75596875000002,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.83159375000002,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.14784375000002,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.23971875,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.29846875,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.90596875,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.25159375,"end":239.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.45346875,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.52096875,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.57159375,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":246.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.25409375,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.31659375,"end":252.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.27409375000002,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.05409375,"end":261.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.70721875000004,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.32221875,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.98846875000004,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.51471875000004,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.53534375000004,"end":285.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.16346875,"end":288.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.86346875000004,"end":290.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.07409375000003,"end":293.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.22971875,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.55409375,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.59159375,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.35909375,"end":304.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.28721875,"end":307.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.84784375000004,"end":311.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.37471875,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.66971875,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.74909375000004,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.89659375,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.67659375,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.81971875,"end":326.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.14846875,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.21159375,"end":329.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.74721875,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.90221875000003,"end":340.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.83409375,"end":344.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.97284375000004,"end":354.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.18221875,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.07096875,"end":369.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.85971875,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.36909375000005,"end":381.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.62534375,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.70034375,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.64784375000005,"end":409.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.46471875000003,"end":412.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.31221875,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.42159375,"end":417.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.07096875,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.42471875,"end":426.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.37346875000003,"end":429.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.66409375,"end":434.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.54534375000003,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.40596875000006,"end":437.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.38846875,"end":442.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.96596875,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.24409375000005,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.64471875000004,"end":449.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.52596875,"end":452.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.51284375,"end":454.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":456.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.17034375000003,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.34284375000004,"end":462.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.01346875,"end":463.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.26221875000005,"end":466.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.97471875,"end":471.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.55221875,"end":472.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.16784375000003,"end":475.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.47971875,"end":477.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.38221875000005,"end":479.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.47909375,"end":483.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.80346875000004,"end":491.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.61221875,"end":493.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.60346875000005,"end":497.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.46346875,"end":502.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.24346875000003,"end":504.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.12034375,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.6340937499999,"end":515.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.3215937499999,"end":517.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.92471875,"end":519.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.57846875,"end":520.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.7722187500001,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.42596875,"end":525.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.80534375,"end":527.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9822187500001,"end":529.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.9397187500001,"end":531.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.67784375,"end":534.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.06971875,"end":535.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.50409375,"end":541.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.68034375,"end":547.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.3334687500001,"end":550.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.80971875,"end":554.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.89784375,"end":558.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.4878437500001,"end":560.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.25971875,"end":562.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.19596875,"end":565.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.69784375,"end":566.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.9128437500001,"end":570.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.09784375,"end":573.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.9497187500001,"end":577.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.4890937499999,"end":581.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":584.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.58096875,"end":586.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.55096875,"end":589.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.7234687499999,"end":593.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.5078437500001,"end":595.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.43159375,"end":597.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.54096875,"end":599.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.9709687500001,"end":601.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.81409375,"end":606.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.1259687500001,"end":608.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.2690937500001,"end":611.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.27284375,"end":613.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.41596875,"end":615.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.0190937500001,"end":617.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.33096875,"end":620.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.98034375,"end":621.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.4990937499999,"end":623.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.89096875,"end":628.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.2153437500001,"end":630.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.08846875,"end":632.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.7253437500001,"end":634.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.34096875,"end":637.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.14221875,"end":641.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.80409375,"end":644.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.1240937499999,"end":649.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.8828437500001,"end":652.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.7390937499999,"end":655.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.1728437500001,"end":658.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.25284375,"end":660.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.2609687500001,"end":662.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.22284375,"end":663.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.0534687500001,"end":668.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.2765937500001,"end":673.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.99284375,"end":678.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.9965937500001,"end":681.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.00034375,"end":683.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.00846875,"end":684.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.0422187500001,"end":685.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.7634687500001,"end":686.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.4465937500001,"end":689.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9484687500001,"end":692.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.70721875,"end":698.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.9934687500001,"end":700.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.22909375,"end":705.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.35096875,"end":707.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.0890937500001,"end":709.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.86096875,"end":712.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.8815937500001,"end":714.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.17221875,"end":718.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.0747187500001,"end":721.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.0190937500001,"end":726.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.9890937499999,"end":732.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.23284375,"end":736.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.4978437500001,"end":742.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.30721875,"end":743.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.43784375,"end":746.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.3784687500001,"end":747.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.82534375,"end":753.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.9297187500001,"end":759.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.8447187500001,"end":763.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.2490937500002,"end":765.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.41346875,"end":771.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.9778437500001,"end":776.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.86346875,"end":774.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.0359687499999,"end":779.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.19596875,"end":781.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.98471875,"end":783.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.56659375,"end":786.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.96284375,"end":787.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.76846875,"end":789.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.87784375,"end":792.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.2065937500001,"end":794.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.82659375,"end":795.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.24409375,"end":798.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.5009687500001,"end":800.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.28971875,"end":802.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.63534375,"end":805.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.5590937500001,"end":810.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.0009687500001,"end":815.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.5403437500001,"end":818.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.9365937500002,"end":821.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.06284375,"end":824.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.1128437500001,"end":829.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.1415937500001,"end":832.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.35221875,"end":837.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.8915937500001,"end":840.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.32534375,"end":845.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.99159375,"end":847.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.7297187500001,"end":848.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.2990937500001,"end":851.4422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.7078437500002,"end":853.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.87221875,"end":854.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.9184687500001,"end":857.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.10784375,"end":859.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":861.3815937500001,"end":863.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.8915937500001,"end":867.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":867.4228437500001,"end":873.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.44721875,"end":879.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.3447187500001,"end":884.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.4834687500002,"end":886.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.64346875,"end":891.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.99284375,"end":895.3172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.5703437500001,"end":897.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.72596875,"end":900.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.0672187500002,"end":903.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":904.34534375,"end":908.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":908.96909375,"end":911.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.8547187500001,"end":914.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.20034375,"end":915.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.7822187500001,"end":919.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.2709687500001,"end":922.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.5828437500002,"end":925.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.86096875,"end":928.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.71284375,"end":932.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":934.4165937500002,"end":937.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.8928437500001,"end":943.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.7822187500001,"end":946.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.5578437500001,"end":951.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":952.5065937500001,"end":956.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":957.53534375,"end":958.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":959.0034687500001,"end":959.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":959.05409375,"end":960.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":961.04534375,"end":962.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":964.3697187500002,"end":966.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":967.64346875,"end":971.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":971.7778437500001,"end":973.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":974.66346875,"end":977.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":978.20721875,"end":979.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":981.2278437500001,"end":982.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.23596875,"end":984.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":984.77159375,"end":988.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":988.9565937500001,"end":991.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.1965937500001,"end":993.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":994.5928437500002,"end":997.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":998.7947187500001,"end":1001.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1001.79846875,"end":1005.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1006.75971875,"end":1011.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1011.8390937500001,"end":1013.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1015.04534375,"end":1016.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1017.4584687500001,"end":1018.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1019.5847187500001,"end":1022.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1023.0103437500002,"end":1025.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1025.7947187500001,"end":1026.8072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1026.8409687500002,"end":1029.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1029.42284375,"end":1031.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1033.23659375,"end":1034.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1037.43846875,"end":1041.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1041.6909687500001,"end":1043.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1044.28971875,"end":1047.7997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1048.1878437500002,"end":1051.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1052.59221875,"end":1054.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1054.8028437500002,"end":1056.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1057.2159687500002,"end":1060.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1062.3965937500002,"end":1064.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1064.6409687500002,"end":1065.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1065.9234687500002,"end":1067.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1068.94409375,"end":1071.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1071.7790937500001,"end":1076.0315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1077.19596875,"end":1079.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1079.5247187500001,"end":1089.1097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1089.34596875,"end":1091.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1092.1809687500001,"end":1093.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1094.4759687500002,"end":1096.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1098.05346875,"end":1098.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1099.4034687500002,"end":1102.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1103.4703437500002,"end":1105.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1106.4234687500002,"end":1108.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1111.0303437500002,"end":1113.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1115.16471875,"end":1117.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1118.6072187500001,"end":1121.0540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1121.49284375,"end":1122.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1123.21409375,"end":1129.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1129.40721875,"end":1131.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1131.21284375,"end":1133.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1134.4190937500002,"end":1135.8197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1136.27534375,"end":1139.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1141.1353437500002,"end":1143.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1143.88596875,"end":1145.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1145.8097187500002,"end":1148.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1148.7459687500002,"end":1151.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1152.0872187500001,"end":1154.3653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1154.98971875,"end":1157.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1158.4490937500002,"end":1160.0015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1161.01409375,"end":1162.9715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1163.27534375,"end":1164.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1166.78534375,"end":1167.7134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1168.75971875,"end":1173.5184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1174.3622187500002,"end":1178.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1179.6778437500002,"end":1184.7572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1185.2972187500002,"end":1187.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1189.31346875,"end":1190.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1190.8997187500001,"end":1196.0128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1196.63721875,"end":1200.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1202.5603437500001,"end":1203.5897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1204.63596875,"end":1214.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1215.5034687500001,"end":1218.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1218.70971875,"end":1220.0597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1220.7515937500002,"end":1222.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1223.21534375,"end":1224.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1224.58221875,"end":1226.9278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1228.41284375,"end":1231.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1231.8722187500002,"end":1232.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1233.1209687500002,"end":1234.3697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1234.99409375,"end":1236.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1237.0190937500001,"end":1245.6422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1246.2159687500002,"end":1247.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1248.4772187500002,"end":1254.9234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1255.95284375,"end":1261.4034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1262.12909375,"end":1262.6690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1263.42846875,"end":1271.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1272.2034687500002,"end":1272.6590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1273.0809687500002,"end":1274.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1275.4603437500002,"end":1276.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1277.0128437500002,"end":1281.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1281.53534375,"end":1281.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1281.97409375,"end":1282.0415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1282.0584687500002,"end":1283.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1283.9147187500002,"end":1285.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1284.80909375,"end":1286.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1285.6697187500001,"end":1288.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1288.1165937500002,"end":1291.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1291.9134687500002,"end":1295.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1296.33471875,"end":1301.4647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1301.68409375,"end":1305.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1306.03784375,"end":1312.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1312.4503437500002,"end":1314.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1313.5303437500002,"end":1316.7703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1317.1753437500001,"end":1318.3734687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1318.9134687500002,"end":1320.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1320.6009687500002,"end":1322.9634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1323.3684687500001,"end":1326.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1326.9290937500002,"end":1333.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1333.9828437500003,"end":1336.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1337.23971875,"end":1339.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1339.63596875,"end":1341.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1342.03221875,"end":1344.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1344.69846875,"end":1348.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1349.4234687500002,"end":1353.6253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1354.3003437500001,"end":1357.5572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1358.0972187500001,"end":1359.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1359.59909375,"end":1362.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1363.7334687500002,"end":1365.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1367.1253437500002,"end":1370.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1371.25971875,"end":1376.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1377.2334687500002,"end":1378.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1379.0897187500002,"end":1381.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1382.0428437500002,"end":1383.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1384.2872187500002,"end":1385.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1386.0084687500002,"end":1388.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1389.2147187500002,"end":1400.8753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1401.1622187500002,"end":1420.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1419.2015937500003,"end":1426.0528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1425.9515937500003,"end":1430.4234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1426.2047187500002,"end":1429.1747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1430.1365937500002,"end":1434.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1431.4190937500002,"end":1431.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1434.5240937500002,"end":1437.1903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1437.5615937500002,"end":1442.0840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1442.2359687500002,"end":1446.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1447.1465937500002,"end":1450.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1450.5215937500002,"end":1452.7659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1453.2215937500002,"end":1465.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1465.9790937500002,"end":1470.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1471.26096875,"end":1477.4203437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1478.0784687500002,"end":1480.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1480.27221875,"end":1481.8753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1482.2634687500001,"end":1484.6934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1483.2422187500001,"end":1492.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1492.23659375,"end":1496.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1497.28221875,"end":1502.5472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1503.3740937500002,"end":1506.9515937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1507.5084687500002,"end":1517.3128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1511.5584687500002,"end":1512.3009687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1517.4815937500002,"end":1521.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1522.3922187500002,"end":1523.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1524.56909375,"end":1524.9572187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1526.66159375,"end":1528.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1529.3784687500001,"end":1530.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1531.0997187500002,"end":1536.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1537.1915937500003,"end":1539.0984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1539.4359687500003,"end":1545.7134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1546.4559687500002,"end":1551.9065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1553.25659375,"end":1564.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1564.4615937500002,"end":1566.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1567.31346875,"end":1568.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1570.0640937500002,"end":1570.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1571.0428437500002,"end":1572.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1573.37159375,"end":1579.0415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1579.0753437500002,"end":1586.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1586.5509687500003,"end":1587.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1587.42846875,"end":1589.7909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1590.1622187500002,"end":1591.8497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1592.18721875,"end":1595.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1595.6128437500001,"end":1598.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1599.8990937500002,"end":1600.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1600.77659375,"end":1601.7384687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1601.3672187500001,"end":1602.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1603.3922187500002,"end":1606.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1606.2272187500002,"end":1610.7159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1611.5765937500003,"end":1618.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1616.4872187500002,"end":1628.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1629.04221875,"end":1631.3878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1632.0290937500001,"end":1633.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1633.83471875,"end":1636.7372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1638.3065937500003,"end":1641.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1641.3103437500001,"end":1641.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1642.27221875,"end":1645.7484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1646.05221875,"end":1651.0809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1651.5197187500003,"end":1654.6078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1654.7428437500002,"end":1659.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1659.6365937500002,"end":1661.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1662.25221875,"end":1663.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1663.8553437500002,"end":1665.2559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1666.6397187500002,"end":1668.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1669.0359687500002,"end":1669.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1671.7022187500002,"end":1681.3378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1681.9453437500001,"end":1684.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1684.45971875,"end":1688.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1688.4590937500002,"end":1690.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1691.1759687500003,"end":1695.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1696.1034687500003,"end":1697.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1698.5672187500002,"end":1702.4315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1703.0390937500001,"end":1707.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1710.5653437500002,"end":1711.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1711.61159375,"end":1713.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1714.4972187500002,"end":1717.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1718.9353437500001,"end":1720.1503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1720.85909375,"end":1721.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1722.14159375,"end":1727.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1727.8453437500002,"end":1729.2628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1729.6172187500001,"end":1729.9715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1730.1403437500003,"end":1733.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1734.3084687500002,"end":1742.1722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1742.6278437500002,"end":1744.4165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1744.7203437500002,"end":1749.3440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1749.6647187500002,"end":1750.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1750.6265937500002,"end":1756.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1758.0684687500002,"end":1761.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1761.4603437500002,"end":1763.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1764.4134687500002,"end":1766.6915937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1767.6028437500001,"end":1768.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1768.96971875,"end":1773.9984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1774.3528437500001,"end":1775.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1776.3609687500002,"end":1778.0484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1779.0778437500003,"end":1782.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1783.2459687500002,"end":1788.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1789.0172187500002,"end":1790.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1790.7047187500002,"end":1792.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1791.0928437500002,"end":1791.2447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1793.1853437500001,"end":1797.4547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1797.7584687500002,"end":1799.4628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1800.5090937500001,"end":1803.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1804.13721875,"end":1805.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1806.36471875,"end":1810.7015937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1810.87034375,"end":1812.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1813.1653437500001,"end":1814.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1815.08909375,"end":1818.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1819.6284687500001,"end":1821.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1821.8897187500002,"end":1822.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1822.7840937500002,"end":1825.2984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1826.0409687500003,"end":1841.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1842.0553437500002,"end":1843.7259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1848.5184687500002,"end":1848.5353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1848.5353437500003,"end":1851.3028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1854.4247187500002,"end":1854.9647187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":25.153,"end":50.029,"text":"謝謝院長。有請陳院長跟衛福部宣部長。麻煩再請陳院長衛福部備詢。總委很早。院長還有部長早。我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人。醫學的唯一解答就是代理孕婦。"},{"start":51.363,"end":74.37,"text":"我跟我先生也偷跑過但是後來我們決定放棄曝光而且公開呼籲要推動代孕解禁目的是要幫助其他的病友有機會實現他們的心願我一生從來沒有預期能夠今天在國會殿堂有30分鐘的時間"},{"start":76.533,"end":89.887,"text":"能夠來談今天的主題。我的主題就是等待文明來解禁代孕。等待文明來解禁代孕。院長,20年前我寄了這本書給您。"},{"start":95.834,"end":119.751,"text":"有,謝謝你,而且那本書寫得很好。你為病人團體所提供的這個呼籲我很感動。為什麼我不能有一個孩子?那時候是2004年的現在。當時我們台灣剛經歷過SARS。您被認為是一個成功的任務型的署長。所以我在蝴蝶葉上寫著,我在蝴蝶葉上寫著,"},{"start":121.734,"end":142.288,"text":"親愛的署長感謝您用愛心跟專業來守護臺灣我祈禱您的智慧跟您的慈悲等同您的權利跟職位幾天之後我去衛生署向您陳情而且我還指控人工生殖管理委員會是違憲的他們從來沒有讓病人進去說話"},{"start":146.598,"end":171.736,"text":"他們沒有法令,卻用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人代孕。我還向您指控他們是一言堂,裡面充滿的、充斥的反對的聲音,連一個支持的聲音都沒有。院長,後來幾個月之後,您用臺灣第一次的公民會議回應了我的需求。"},{"start":173.598,"end":178.41,"text":"我在此再向院長致謝。謝謝院長。不會,不過很可惜這個"},{"start":179.258,"end":184.841,"text":"謝謝院長但是最近有一些反對者說我當年是逼迫您來做這個公民會議我何德何能所以是不是在今天的質詢台上你能夠幫忙釐清當時為什麼您願意舉行一個公民會議你的初衷跟你的想法是什麼"},{"start":208.308,"end":234.164,"text":"在2004年那個年代對於很多的新的一些醫療的措施怎麼樣來進行實際上很多連醫界還有公民權利的這個學界都沒有很了解所以而當時最好的一個方法就是用公民審議的方式讓公民在得到很完整的知識的情況下能夠來做決定所以我也採納了我們臺大的"},{"start":236.896,"end":260.711,"text":"社會科學院的同仁還有法律學院的同仁的建議來實施這個審議會。謝謝院長您的釐清這對我非常的重要那我也想告訴院長跟部長在2002年的時候賴清德立委賴清德立委他就提出了支持代孕的法案當時連署人也有蕭美琴立委陳其邁立委"},{"start":263.442,"end":287.957,"text":"總計這個提案人跟連署人總共超出了30位可見當時立委們對這個制度對這個法案是有共識的那這份提案的總說明因為是發生在22年前有他的時空背景他的用詞我稍微念一下一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素這是不可彌補的身體缺憾"},{"start":289.257,"end":316.145,"text":"應該被公平地視為升職機能上的障礙者我們的社會仍然相當重視傳統接待在社會價值觀沒有改變之前對於這些升職機能有障礙的人應該用寬大包容的心來幫助他們而不是意外地要求他們要放棄生育權被強迫去收養小孩請問院長準總統跟準副總統在2022年前"},{"start":318.846,"end":340.214,"text":"就提出不應該一面的要求我們放棄生育權。這個平等法案您支持嗎?我當然支持。部長、學部長您近期一直對這個法案說它是有爭議的。您知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎?您知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢?"},{"start":341.874,"end":363.536,"text":"部長請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委,他們在22年前就提出了這樣的法案。您會告訴他們說,你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎?薛部長請回答,謝謝。這個是一個事實,那對於這件事情,人工代孕的這個事實的話是有不同的看法。"},{"start":365.191,"end":386.733,"text":"社會上有不同的看法。等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖。你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼的認真。他很努力收集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持。而且他還做了一個調查。調查這些立委們。包括當時是國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委。"},{"start":387.654,"end":388.334,"text":"我這個讓部長跟院長都了解。"},{"start":414.349,"end":437.53,"text":"我想跟兩位所長談我們的故事跟人生有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念說不孕不是病所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商商說我們只需要群體的心理治療還有一位前台北市社會局顧局長他說不孕不是病為什麼會痛苦"},{"start":439.414,"end":465.908,"text":"有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論。我也曾經被保健處處長指著說,昭姿你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說,人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說,不孕的解答就是收養。但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":468.015,"end":496.863,"text":"某位前法務部部長他在電視上公然跟我說收養跟親生一樣好不過他自己是親生的那也有一位前總統他公開呼籲當時台灣有很多的棄嬰那個年代他說台灣有很多可憐的棄嬰請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛去收養這些小孩這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生"},{"start":499.502,"end":520.43,"text":"人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰對生命改變了很多例如說沒有精或卵子我們也有機會有下一代這就是所謂的捐精捐卵例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室而不是輸卵管"},{"start":521.84,"end":550.843,"text":"人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結。比如說代理運動。人工生殖技術把自古以來生育的連結、連續性分割了。每一個分割點就是診斷不應或治療不應的非常關鍵的一個因素。人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助有一些罹患重病的病人,包括癌症。他們可能因為治療而失去生育力。"},{"start":551.864,"end":576.906,"text":"但是仍然抱著一線希望,未來還是可以保有、追求幸福的這樣的一個期待。其實我要講,代孕其實是奶媽的延伸。古代的人媽媽奶水不夠,他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子。那我們呢,我們就是子宮不健康啊。我需要一個溫暖的子宮,讓我的孩子長大。"},{"start":578.53,"end":601.648,"text":"人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人不可以用這些科技這是多麼的殘忍跟不人道我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議為什麼子宮有障礙的人他就是不能使用這個科技"},{"start":604.844,"end":632.817,"text":"整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰跟質疑所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人我會問自己我有資格結婚嗎?我有資格戀愛嗎?我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢?什麼時候講?對誰講?我曾經為一對竹科的情侶的女方家長她媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人"},{"start":635.393,"end":663.33,"text":"確切書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是因男方的要求因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼?結婚的時候難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎?結婚以後最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎?"},{"start":666.129,"end":692.187,"text":"其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾曾經有一位台大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救她的女兒嚷著要休學為什麼呢因為課堂上要做理學檢查同學們互相做理學檢查她擔心自己的秘密被曝光其實我們就醫時我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說"},{"start":694.738,"end":721.293,"text":"在我們的婚姻過程當中我被要求做子宮頸抹面檢查的時候我該怎麼辦呢?所以有時候我有不得不的謊言我在美國念書的時候我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉她擔心我的身體秘密會曝光我常常祈禱我不要生病住院否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情"},{"start":724.076,"end":753.742,"text":"看病的時候其實我們是充滿焦慮的因為合格的醫師一定會問一句上次你的月經什麼時候來這個跟用藥是有關的這個時候我只好編一個日期編造一個日期給他護光後我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說他會說沒有小孩也很好但是他們都有小孩更多人說收養跟親生的一樣好但是他們絕對是親生孩子"},{"start":755.967,"end":775.753,"text":"那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢?就是要我們去收養小孩、收養棄嬰、收養孤兒。請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎?請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎?請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎?"},{"start":778.069,"end":797.942,"text":"各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力以至於30年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕30年來只有我一個人陳昭姿一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人為什麼呢"},{"start":799.554,"end":805.655,"text":"院長、部長,我們還要受到凌遲多久呢?我收養小孩了。我的孩子被公認是個暖男。他在學校非常的活躍,也得過立他獎。"},{"start":826.155,"end":851.324,"text":"但是不要忘記也有一位射精地位很高的政治人物他的收養案例是失敗的30幾歲以後孩子30幾歲以後他們終止了收養關係可見收養不是一件容易的事情福運者的選項是什麼?終身無後嗎?收養小孩嗎?還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技"},{"start":852.742,"end":879.087,"text":"我要談的重點是其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精捐卵收養本身是一個讓我來形容因為我做過了我收養了孩子他是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題"},{"start":881.437,"end":881.798,"text":"所以我要告訴兩位首長"},{"start":902.113,"end":905.476,"text":"我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長,因為他們負責收出養業務。我非常驚訝,但是"},{"start":925.902,"end":927.262,"text":"接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差。"},{"start":952.714,"end":979.398,"text":"醫學生殖科技進步了可以幫助不義原因的診斷跟治療但是我們的感受是子宮有障礙不是不救是不肯救不是不救是不肯救生殖科技原是為了幫助人民增進幸福滿足他的心願但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運禁止我們使用科技"},{"start":981.3,"end":1005.362,"text":"所以有資源的人只好回避禁令,偷偷在國內,是的,偷偷在國內,包括我的曾經,在國內進行待遇,或遠到海外去執行待遇。有關人工生殖法的部分,我也很有意見。捐金捐軟,尤其是捐金這個部分,在默許了十幾年之後,在2007年才立法管理。"},{"start":1006.786,"end":1034.593,"text":"而且據我瞭解我也向國建署瞭解過捐金沒有追蹤後果堪慮啊大運那麼清楚卻要阻擋經過兩次公民會議的討論長期被擱置我覺得這是歧視這是偏見我在這裡要國會殿堂表達最嚴重的抗議對大運是歧視去偏見我要提出最嚴重的抗議"},{"start":1037.489,"end":1060.178,"text":"我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕他們處罰的對象是醫師不讓醫師來幫病人做最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照所以我一輩子不會說合法化我講的是代孕解禁我講的是法治化因為我們從來沒有犯過法"},{"start":1062.438,"end":1075.49,"text":"我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願請願我參與過無數的公聽會我一直訴諸媒體甚至醫學課堂我在1996年用真實姓名去面對"},{"start":1077.75,"end":1104.162,"text":"大眾用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕我在2010年那是SARS之後教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課我談的就是代孕那一次的課程那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室讓我覺得這是馳來的正義"},{"start":1106.462,"end":1133.037,"text":"我也受到非常強烈的震撼。請問各位有人看過民國八十年的報紙嗎?這一份是民國八十年的報紙。民國八十年10月23號的報紙。民生報。它的標題是一個沒有子宮女人的生歸院。後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的。指標題是沒有法故事永遠沒有結局。"},{"start":1134.488,"end":1159.801,"text":"其實當時民生報錯把筆名的位置放了真名讓我痛不欲生後來總編李淑娟向我道歉第二天我們做了一些補救讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章我只稱這個病人是我的朋友不是我自己但是為了幫助他我用第一人稱來稱呼他其實那個病人是我自己"},{"start":1161.052,"end":1185.834,"text":"只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情我當初在呼籲代孕解禁的時候的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家歐美國家通過了代孕他們沒有少子化國安問題也沒有傳宗接代的壓力那他為什麼會同意呢因為他們認為這是人權"},{"start":1189.346,"end":1214.609,"text":"但是時至今日我想院長跟部長都知道臺灣一直都是生育率倒數前兩名2017年開始我們出生的孩子的人數已經少於死亡的人數在我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀我的辦公室門口會貼的這兩個數字出生人數跟死亡人數上個月出生人數不到1萬人已經破了新低了"},{"start":1215.543,"end":1226.784,"text":"但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求呼籲幫助健康的人要生小孩這是沒有錯的但是對於無法生育的人呢"},{"start":1228.619,"end":1254.729,"text":"對於代孕需求的人絕口不提。為什麼?我這裡想請問部長,對於少數偏激自私健康充滿意識形態充滿被害妄想症的一群反對者,他們的意見有那麼重要嗎?我們需求者的意見呢?還有我們的心願呢?還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢?"},{"start":1256.227,"end":1271.403,"text":"難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎?難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎?部長這個部分的話其實就是他完全是有非常大的爭議因為這牽涉到一個第三人"},{"start":1272.247,"end":1294.94,"text":"那剛剛委員所提出2002年那時候賴清德副總統當立委的時候他有推這個案子但是後來沒有通過我想要告訴你所以表示說那個爭議還是連台灣請不要再做生意了爭議好嗎您的東西很多衛福很多東西是爭議的造作不悟啊"},{"start":1296.803,"end":1311.732,"text":"爭議這件事情我可以告訴你因為全台灣只有我最多這個數字願意代孕的女性比需求的女性告訴我的還多我手上是一堆名單請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕人他的心願這也是他的權利他想成全別人"},{"start":1314.793,"end":1340.927,"text":"請部長了解一下什麼叫公民會議。下一張公民會議。公民會議就是,它是個簡稱,原來叫公民共識會議。這是民主國家行之有年一種審議式的民主。公民會議就是讓一群公民,他沒有具有專業知識基礎。這群公民是經過報名,然後隨機取樣的。然後他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論,然後找出他們想要了解的問題。然後在一個公開的論壇上,"},{"start":1342.088,"end":1365.408,"text":"就向這個專家學者們詢問他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們做備選然後他們在有一定的程度的知識跟訊息的基礎下他們討論他們辯論他們找出結論他們找出共識然後做成報告公諸於世交給國家做政策的參考這就叫公民會議"},{"start":1367.165,"end":1388.22,"text":"院長我知道您還記得這個您幫我主持這次會議這是多麼嚴謹而且參與者是高度了解所有資訊的人所謂的well informed就是充分知情的一群公民他們的結論是同意的而且院長您答應我院長您答應我半年後有進度欸"},{"start":1389.422,"end":1400.062,"text":"陳院長我現在還在苦苦等待您當年的承諾,您可以兌現您的承諾嗎?當時您只是衛生署署長,現在您貴為行政院院長,您可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎?"},{"start":1401.766,"end":1425.696,"text":"這就是在當時公民審議會議之後我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出但是很可惜很可惜在立法院的討論就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣都沒有在大院裡面得到通過我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策不是什麼都訴諸民意我看到民意不高的也照做了"},{"start":1426.476,"end":1452.216,"text":"有經過就能夠做,想做就能做。我們來回顧一下公民會議的兩次結論。我們第一次在2014年就是林丹任署長的時候,當時有兩項結論。第一個是同意有條件開放代孕。第二項很特別的就是因為我剛剛提到,很多人叫我們收養不要去搞代孕。所以我很成功地說服那群公民,把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡。"},{"start":1453.397,"end":1470.205,"text":"有關收養之主他們是這麼講的,不應該因為有需要收養的孩童而將收養強加於不孕者,並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲的道德批判。這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷,都是可採行的管道。"},{"start":1471.608,"end":1496.641,"text":"這麼清楚具有邏輯還具有價值觀的這個結論竟然在20年前的公民會議會出現實在是令人敬佩跟感動他們很了不起他們當時我讓部長有一邊了解公民會議的水準第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑婷署長的時代我就唸一下她的結論不願委託者同時提供金跟軟就同時都有了應該早日開放"},{"start":1497.381,"end":1522.436,"text":"無印委託的錦亭宮其中一個經貨卵也應該予以開放那無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作政府要積極介入當時國建署副組長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說未身處傾向支持這個代孕然而一言當那是2012年又經過12年了好"},{"start":1526.704,"end":1551.702,"text":"一年來我們做了多少努力。1996年行政院法會委主委陳美玲主委曾推出甲乙兩板的草案。2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請英美專家跟當事者到臺灣來分享、討論。從此以後國建署非常積極地召開會議,最後在2016年提出了草案。"},{"start":1553.288,"end":1571.729,"text":"那這當中國建署做了三次全國性的民調全國性的民調2010年2013年2015年大體上的結論是六成人支持兩成人不反對所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的但是儘管有國際研討會"},{"start":1573.387,"end":1573.967,"text":"我想我們再繼續來努力"},{"start":1600.22,"end":1610.51,"text":"議長跟部長,你要臨時我們多久呢?你還要繼續臨時我們就需求的多久呢?報告委員,這最終的解決還是必須要在立法院"},{"start":1611.793,"end":1636.488,"text":"我們是可以說盡量在這個過程把它縮短,把草案送到議法院。護長我聽到你要盡量做,就是說您是一個婦產科醫師,我現在見到反對者的理由跟意識形態,好這麼多年來我們來看反對者反對了什麼,30年來理由一成不變了,反對者指控我們說這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡不健康,"},{"start":1638.336,"end":1665.083,"text":"但是明明就有很多很多國外的研究指出透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩他們做比較在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別好嗎這種臆測之詞這個是空想之詞完全不符合科學的驗證這是第一個大家都可以去查這個報告第二個反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化"},{"start":1666.687,"end":1690.008,"text":"我想相對於妻子跟媳婦,代孕難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎?他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎?我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我代孕嗎?你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼?我想院長或部長應該知道,倫理學的基礎就是一個自主性,autonomy,是最高的原則。"},{"start":1691.269,"end":1716.951,"text":"自主性是非常重要的當然不孕夫妻他可以選擇生或不生他可以選擇要不要去委託代孕代孕者有百分百的權利決定他要不要幫人家代孕他有百分之百的決定權哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢如果那些反對者如果我是你的女兒如果我是你最愛的親人你還會這樣指控我嗎"},{"start":1719.091,"end":1733.508,"text":"還有一些人指控代孕者會因為射精弱勢被欺壓。非常感謝另外一位委員陳金輝委員他也是婦產隔離師他在質詢的時候或是在公聽的時候都清楚的指出他用了最新的一篇報告"},{"start":1734.389,"end":1763.328,"text":"加拿大的研究報告287位代理母大家都是基於利他的心態helping others幫助別人的心態去做代孕他們認為代孕是在助人在幫助人擁有一個家庭而且53%的人是大學教育以上50%的人是有工作的他不是工作他不是經濟弱勢也不是貧窮者部長從曝光的那天我從來都不是為自己但是我背後站了一群需求的人"},{"start":1764.505,"end":1792.265,"text":"曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待終至絕望正式進入醫師的傷心檔案兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎?傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎?院長部長那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去放在心上帶回去將心比心成全別人追求幸福"},{"start":1793.26,"end":1813.683,"text":"是人生的最高境界。將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福是人生的最高境界。希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。院長,我再提醒您。我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的炎。要做一支小蠟燭,照亮台灣。"},{"start":1815.14,"end":1843.2,"text":"院長,我希望您能秉持這個觀念,秉持這個信念,為我們這群弱勢的病人發光,成為他們的光,好嗎?院長謝謝你為不孕症者所反映的這一些心聲,我覺得你很勇敢,而且很慈悲,很善良。那這件事情我們會全力以赴,跟各界再來做最深入的溝通,希望在短期內就有很好的成果。那也期許部長"},{"start":1848.724,"end":1849.285,"text":"謝謝陳委員召職質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。"}]}},{"id":"150410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee7fd7bacdc699860f8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6b6b03fad438834045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:24:20 - 09:40:15","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":955,"end_time":"2024-03-26T09:40:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T09:24:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":69,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時24分）院長好，有請行政院陳院長及薛瑞元部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：廖委員早安。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長早。院長、部長，健保開辦以來，這28年有極高的民意支持度，但是現在在這個高支持度的背後我們卻看到是由血汗醫護所支撐，甚至現在已經向下影響到整個醫療、教育，包含醫師公會理事長也說現在有很多學生看到醫療環境不佳，影響選擇醫學系的意願；我們統測衛生護理類報考從2019年開始更是年年降低，更加劇了護理人員的人員荒。事實上現在在醫療現場，前幾年的急重難罕、內外婦兒無一不缺，護理人力也流失嚴重，導致醫院有病床卻也無法開，許多病人只能夠塞在急診室一待就好幾天。所以想要請教院長、部長，我們的醫護人力荒有解嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：醫護人力的這一個部分，實際上你剛才講到醫師的報考人不多，這個不對啦！實際上醫學系現在還是第一高志願……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，謝謝，等一下這個問題我們……"],["陳院長建仁：確實急重難罕比較不容易招到住院醫師，這是有……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，謝謝院長，我知道你是這方面的專家，但我們等一下可以慢慢討論，這是開頭而已。院長，除了缺人外，還有缺藥，缺藥的因素也有很多，在生產端，包含原料藥的來源供應不及，還有供應鏈不穩定、製造品質或法規要求改變以及藥商的商業考量，更別說賦形劑、膠囊殼，甚至物流因素等等都有可能造成缺藥。所以一顆小小的藥丸或是膠囊，它的產品鏈非常長，只要有一個小環節出狀況就容易造成缺藥。另外在需求面包括我們的庫存量管理不佳、突然增加的需求及季節需求因素等也會造成缺藥，所以缺藥的因素不一而足。但是缺藥也分短期缺藥跟長期缺藥，短期缺藥可以透過很多手段解決，但是如果是長期缺藥的話就要特別小心了。所以我想要問院長，您同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得缺藥的問題確實是需要很慎重來解決。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：但是衛福部也很用很大的心力來調整。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長，所以面對缺藥問題，我之前有在委員會作出決議，包含同時符合三個條件下，就可以排除在每年藥價調整之外，或不受藥價調整影響，這三個條件分別是，臨床上有需求，也就是必須經過醫學會認證，或者是藥事法第二十七條之二的必要藥品清單中之藥品；第二個是鼓勵在地製造，希望可以穩定我們的供應鏈；第三個就是3張以下的稀缺藥證。院長，這部分涉及修法，請問4月中之前，能否將此三項條件納入修法的內容之中？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我請衛福部回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，委員所提出來這三個條件，除了第一個的醫學會認證，因為我們在列必要藥品品項的時候都有跟醫醫學會這邊，邀請他們確認過了，所以不一定需要再去寫醫學會認證。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我後面也有講到醫事法的……"],["薛部長瑞元：其他這三個部分的話，我們都深表贊同。4月8日我們會召集相關團體做考量，然後送到健保的共擬會議，所以4月底之前要完成這個所謂的規定修改的話，有一點點困難，但是在上半年應該是沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那請部長也儘快加速進行。我的條件之一是，藥事法第二十七條之二的必要藥品清單嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：既然是必要藥品，代表這些藥品是不可或缺的，目前總共是四百多項。但是院長，你們知道這份清單多久才檢討一次嗎？從食藥署的網頁，依照公告資料，最近一次是在去年11月，可是再上一次間隔了3年2個月，再之前大概平均約兩年。所以院長、部長，既然是必要的藥品清單，為何不能夠每年檢討一次？尤其是現在的狀況之下，因為國際上的供應鏈也仍然沒有很穩定，所以本席的具體建議是有沒有可能改成每年檢討一次？同時也在4月中之前，或是你剛剛說時程上的部分，可不可以提早完成這個修法的預告作業？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是每年檢討，應該是可行，我們儘量朝這個方向做。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。再來，院長、部長，我們醫療的價值要等於我們醫療的品質，也要等於我們醫療的點值，這樣的理念您認同嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：最後一個有關健保的，是不是等於健保點值？因為我們現在是在總額預算的制度下去運作……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以價量的關係……"],["廖委員偉翔：是。院長，但是健保的點值長年以來一直被貶值，造成現在醫療體系的困境，所以醫界為了生存而有過去大家常常聽到的藥價差、發展自費藥材，或者是最近的解除掛號費上限等等，這些都是醫界自救的手段。但也因為如此，整個醫療體系也會越來越扭曲，病患也不滿意，所以院長你知道嗎？醫療院所其實也不想這樣做，但是為了生存，也只能這麼做。所以院長、部長，健保點值這個老問題讓整個醫療體系不死不活，連臺大醫院院長都說，醫療本業的利潤剩下1%，如果他是企業的CEO，老早就被開除了。而你們現在還要調漲電價，請問院長，你認為臺大醫院吳院長所說1%的利潤還有可能嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有關電價的調整如何影響臺大醫院的營運，我們需要再來評估電費所占的百分比是多少。"],["廖委員偉翔：是。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我想醫界大家所提出來的這些意見，我們都會做為檢討，可是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以院長，醫院裡面的……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的是，不要忘掉我們臺灣的健保在國人心目中還是很好的一個制度……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，這個我曉得。"],["陳院長建仁：要多方來考量。"],["廖委員偉翔：是。院長，因為醫院裡面的急診、加護病房、一般病房的空調也是不能夠中斷的，難不成醫院因為電價太高就要把它關掉嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不會，也不應該。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！所以是又要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草，我們是覺得這樣不太合理。","所以，院長，現在台灣醫院協會、醫師公會的全聯會、護理師公會的全聯會，還有台灣私立醫院協會、醫務管理學會等五大醫事團體聯合發出聲明，籲請不要調漲醫療院所的電價，請問院長，你們可以答應嗎？院長，下星期一就是4月1日調漲電價日喔，所以本席希望本週五前可以給醫界一個答復，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們要來瞭解，剛才我講過，醫療院所的電費占它所有經營的百分比是多少，我舉一個很簡單的例子，譬如說臺北捷運的話，我們調漲電價實際上對它的成本只影響百分之一，醫院的部分我們需要再做盤點，才有辦法來做，當然不可能今天中午以前答復，這個不可能，因為我們還沒有……"],["廖委員偉翔：我沒有說今天中午，我說這個禮拜五。"],["陳院長建仁：如果是這個禮拜五以前，我們來看我們盤點的情況，但是我要再次強調，醫院裡面的電費支出是多少需要做很好的盤點。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，所以這個部分也要請您特別用心、特別留意或是更加的研議，因為你們的經濟部今天也承認他們沒有考量到烘焙機的成本，所以你們講出那個兩塊錢根本是瞎扯的，但是希望這個部分可以研議啦！"],["陳院長建仁：那是看店家的區位在哪裡，有用烘焙機的，它不會在700度裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道。院長，不好意思，我只是要表達這個東西也是茲事體大，還要請你們好好地研議。"],["陳院長建仁：我們當然會做更精細的盤點。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，再來，健保制度的運作讓政府現在的醫療政策只能夠頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，也因為這樣，所以我說現在的健保可能有三苦：病人痛苦、家屬辛苦、醫護命苦，但是最根本性的問題也是剛剛講的長期以來這個健保點值的問題。因為總額上限的問題造成許多醫院必須到處挖東牆、補西牆，院長、部長，這點你們同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我不同意啦！你看看醫院裡面很多病人寫給醫護人員的，他們都是很感謝有健保、有醫護人員，所以他們在得病期間得到很好的照顧……"],["廖委員偉翔：是、是、是，但是這個點值浮動的問題……"],["陳院長建仁：你現在就故意講反面的話，我個人不贊成。"],["廖委員偉翔：我沒有講反面的話……"],["陳院長建仁：而且家屬有很多都是感謝我們醫護人員的努力……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，大家都感謝，但是現在醫護……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你製造對立，沒有辦法使臺灣的醫療產業有很好的……"],["廖委員偉翔：但現在是血汗醫護的問題。沒有，院長，我要跟你討論的是現在血汗醫護的問題。我要告訴你一個數據，這2年的健保浮動點值曾一度掉到0.8元以下，但我們要說，實際也有可能比這個更慘，因為總額之下還有一個分區總額，所以健保署的各分區業務組會跟它那個區域的各層級醫院訂定一個目標額，醫院可能也會想辦法減少病患的就診數，這就是醫界裡面有在講的「斷頭現象」，所以實際的醫療服務量可能根本沒有申報，這也就是醫院為什麼抱怨說做得越多領得越少，或者是虧得越多。院長，更動健保制度當然是茲事體大，所以必須要做好社會溝通，才能夠在最少的阻力之下進行改革，但是現在醫護人力短缺等問題，加上又要調漲電價，所以醫療體系崩潰在即。","我已經在上週正式提出健全醫療發展特別條例，希望幫我們臺灣的醫療打強心針，這裡面最核心的，也就是自本條例及本條例所編之特別預算通過後，合計健保各分區、各部門之總額浮動點值，平均未達0.95元者，應補足至0.95元。基本上，也就是希望保障點值最基本要有0.95元，這個部分也是要呼應我們醫界的主張。另外，要解決我們護理人力不足的部分，我是針對地區級以上的醫院，執行急性病床以及特殊病床照護的護理人員，每月發給1萬元的津貼，而且要撥補100億成立新藥發展基金。這三個面向，基本上是希望能夠幫助解決整個醫療體系現在的困境。請問院長、部長你們同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得你完全不懂什麼叫做健保的點數，這一個健保的點值，本來就是在健保整個財務的運作裡面行之多年，你這樣的情形有點外行，我請我們部長回答。"],["廖委員偉翔：請部長回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個特別條例要去保障點值，是跟我們健保法裡面總額預算的整個制度是互相扞格的，萬一這一個特別條例通過的話，實務上面怎麼樣去運用兩個不同的制度，互相之間打架，這會產生很大的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想要跟你說的是，健全醫療發展特別條例其實只有3年，並且總額是3,800億，我的想法是在不動總額的前提下，另外用……"],["陳院長建仁：你不懂醫療的現況啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：3,800億是否是一個常設性的，那這個常設性的是公務預算，公務預算怎麼用到健保？要怎麼樣算？這個茲事體大，而且是否都能夠每年有這樣子所謂的3,800億，這個是非常有問題的。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你要請教專家，更深入瞭解所有健保的財務，才能夠做很好的條例。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長，其實在這中間我們都有跟這幾個醫師團體他們溝通，那我也是為他們發聲……"],["陳院長建仁：但是在溝通的時候，除了醫療團體以外，還有病人團體、消費者團體，還有學者專家，通通要來考慮，希望不要只針對單一的團體就來做決定，這樣不是健保決定事情的一個作法。在費協會裡面，本來就有各個stakeholder都需要來參加意見，所以希望委員在訂定這個條例的時候，也聽聽看別的stakeholder的想法，好不好？謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：也請院長、部長先針對健保點值常常在浮動的這個狀況，我剛剛提出的，其實不只是這個部分……"],["陳院長建仁：點值就是會浮動。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是他們現在需要的……"],["陳院長建仁：點值不浮動就不是我們的辦法。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，因為我要跟你算的事情是這樣子啊！在疫情前平均是0.92的情況之下，各層級大多數的醫療院所他們的獲利大概是不到5%，其實對他們來講也很痛苦，在很多情況之下，他也很難留才、攬才，甚至也不敢做到醫療發展的部分，所以這個部分我希望可以透過這樣子的聲音……"],["陳院長建仁：這個是一面之詞。"],["廖委員偉翔：讓院長跟部長可以瞭解到有這樣的狀況，然後也希望說有這樣子的特別條例，也希望行政院如果你們有更好的版本，如果你們可以提出來解決這樣的問題的話，那本席也會支持。所以我希望的是，這件事情也要讓院長、部長請你們好好的去理解。","最後，我也想要花一點時間跟院長快問快答一下，臺中人口有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：臺中人口大概兩百多萬。"],["廖委員偉翔：284萬。那高雄人口有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：這裡你已經有答案了。"],["廖委員偉翔：273萬。那高雄前瞻預算拿多少？"],["陳院長建仁：這一個前瞻預算有……"],["廖委員偉翔：1,265億，抱歉，院長，我們這是快問快答，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：臺中前瞻預算拿多少？228億；高雄巨蛋中央補助有多少？7.5億；臺中巨蛋中央補助多少？0元，會展中心東側也是0元；高雄捷運中央補助多少？833億；臺中捷運中央補助多少？675億。所以院長，我想要講的已經不是你們偏袒哪一個縣市的問題，高雄人口比臺中少，處處拿的比臺中多也沒關係，我們在乎的是，我們臺中跟各個縣市一樣努力，我們認真打拚，每年認真的上繳我們的血汗錢給中央，8年也超過1.8兆，但是中央處處苛責我們臺中，希望院長可以理解到有這樣的狀況。","時間已經到了，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員偉翔的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2號陳委員昭姿質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.05346875,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.879718750000002,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.304718750000003,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.789718750000002,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.39721875,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.493468750000005,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.80471875,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.14596875,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.487218750000004,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.642843750000004,"end":57.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.439718750000004,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.455968750000004,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":87.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.43909375000001,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.28659375000001,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.05846875,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.79534375,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.23409375,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.57971875000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.54096875,"end":120.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.92034375,"end":114.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.23659375000001,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.29909375000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.11659375,"end":131.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.94284375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.71346875,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.64846875,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.03034375000001,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.14346875,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.70034375,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.45096875000002,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.97409375,"end":180.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.36221875,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.20596875,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.57721875000001,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.11659375000002,"end":184.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.74471875,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.43159375000002,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.41784375,"end":199.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.74659375000002,"end":201.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.70409375000003,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.19284375,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.09534375,"end":211.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.44096875000002,"end":212.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.31409375,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.76909375000002,"end":217.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.37659375,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.39346875,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.03471875000002,"end":220.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.06409375,"end":239.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.79534375000003,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.75721875000002,"end":264.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.80784375000002,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.17096875000004,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.93596875000003,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.47846875000005,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.53221875,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.70471875000004,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.07096875,"end":320.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.77409375,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.74409375000005,"end":324.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.69284375,"end":328.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.58284375,"end":339.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.06221875,"end":341.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.83409375,"end":350.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.45784375,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.20034375,"end":347.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.54159375,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.20659375,"end":371.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.53409375,"end":376.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.86659375000005,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.31721875000005,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.36659375000005,"end":397.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.58909375,"end":403.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.02284375000005,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.08159375,"end":423.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.34596875000005,"end":414.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.47159375,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.78346875000005,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.03659375,"end":423.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.79596875000004,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.81284375,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.03534375000004,"end":431.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.22096875000005,"end":431.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.96346875,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.99721875,"end":432.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.11534375,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.31596875,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.22221875,"end":464.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.92034375000003,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.02471875000003,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.64909375,"end":500.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.25221875000005,"end":501.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.07846875,"end":506.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.74409375,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.2240937500001,"end":522.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.4809687500001,"end":530.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.02409375,"end":530.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.54721875,"end":530.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.58096875,"end":539.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.7665937500001,"end":532.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.47471875,"end":536.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.89221875,"end":538.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.01846875,"end":558.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":542.66346875,"end":544.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.6272187500001,"end":563.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.4028437500001,"end":568.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.56659375,"end":569.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.08534375,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.0303437499999,"end":571.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.2790937500001,"end":572.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.2959687499999,"end":573.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.6628437500001,"end":599.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.8315937500001,"end":573.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.83534375,"end":577.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.91471875,"end":585.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.52596875,"end":585.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6609687499999,"end":586.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.7490937499999,"end":588.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.76596875,"end":589.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.1709687499999,"end":589.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.58409375,"end":595.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.10221875,"end":607.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.0203437499999,"end":610.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.56846875,"end":612.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.6103437500001,"end":613.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.1459687500001,"end":615.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.37784375,"end":619.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.9678437499999,"end":623.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.49471875,"end":637.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.8215937500001,"end":645.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.4109687499999,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.25846875,"end":652.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.78971875,"end":653.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.93721875,"end":657.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.56534375,"end":662.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.79659375,"end":666.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.26846875,"end":679.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.8740937500002,"end":683.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.56534375,"end":697.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.2890937500001,"end":698.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.62221875,"end":699.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.0734687500001,"end":701.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.0647187500001,"end":707.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.7178437500002,"end":708.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.5278437500001,"end":711.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.02534375,"end":713.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":714.4678437500002,"end":725.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.0147187500002,"end":725.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.9765937500001,"end":726.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.49971875,"end":736.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.83971875,"end":740.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.24846875,"end":749.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.57221875,"end":748.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.39909375,"end":759.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.3472187500001,"end":759.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.5915937500001,"end":759.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.6084687500002,"end":759.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.65909375,"end":759.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.67596875,"end":760.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":760.0303437500002,"end":760.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.06409375,"end":761.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.21596875,"end":781.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":761.1609687499999,"end":761.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.6640937500001,"end":790.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.6597187500001,"end":783.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.8997187500001,"end":794.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":792.9365937500002,"end":821.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.87221875,"end":800.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.5134687500001,"end":800.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.59784375,"end":800.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.69909375,"end":801.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.64346875,"end":806.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.11534375,"end":810.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":817.2365937500001,"end":818.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.8984687500001,"end":831.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.55096875,"end":832.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":832.77846875,"end":834.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.79534375,"end":842.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":843.03846875,"end":846.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.00409375,"end":863.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":856.25159375,"end":857.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":863.4740937500001,"end":875.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":876.24846875,"end":877.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":877.2609687500001,"end":880.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.6359687500001,"end":881.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":883.28534375,"end":886.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.32284375,"end":889.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.37346875,"end":887.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":889.0903437500001,"end":892.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":891.43596875,"end":892.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":892.7859687500002,"end":893.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.96721875,"end":895.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":896.09346875,"end":896.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.1103437500001,"end":901.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":897.8147187500001,"end":898.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.96596875,"end":903.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":904.36221875,"end":905.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.9653437500001,"end":908.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.01971875,"end":909.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.9140937500001,"end":911.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.09096875,"end":912.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.8503437500001,"end":914.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":915.2803437500002,"end":917.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":918.03096875,"end":919.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":919.38096875,"end":921.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":922.09784375,"end":925.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":926.1140937500002,"end":927.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.97034375,"end":938.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.95596875,"end":941.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.8703437500001,"end":949.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":951.57846875,"end":953.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":954.39659375,"end":955.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":18.114,"end":23.617,"text":"質詢。院長好,有請我們行政院院長陳院長以及我們的薛瑞元學部長。麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢,謝謝。"},{"start":30.376,"end":32.004,"text":"廖委員早安。 院長早。"},{"start":38.023,"end":59.67,"text":"部長,健保開辦以來28年有極高的民意支持度但現在在這個高支持度的背後我們卻看到是由我們血汗醫護所支撐甚至現在已經向下影響到整個醫療教育以及我們包含我們醫師公會理事長也說現在有很多學生看到我們醫療環境不佳影響選擇醫學系的意願"},{"start":61.511,"end":87.747,"text":"那包含我們統策衛生護理類報告也從2019年開始更是年年降低更是加劇了我們護理人員的人員荒那事實上現在在醫療現場前幾年的這個擊中南海然後內外婦兒無一不缺護理人力也流失嚴重導致醫院有病床卻也無法開許多病人就只能夠塞在急診室一待好幾天"},{"start":88.527,"end":92.672,"text":"所以想要請教院長部長我們的醫護人力荒有解嗎?"},{"start":94.09,"end":96.05,"text":"院長除了缺人和缺藥但是還有缺藥"},{"start":120.416,"end":141.107,"text":"那缺藥的因素也有很多,在生產端包含我們的原料藥的來源供應不急,還有供應鏈不穩定,製造品質或法規要求的改變,以及藥商的這個商業考量,更別說這個復型劑、膠囊殼甚至是物流因素等等都有可能造成缺藥,所以一顆小小的藥丸或是膠囊,它的產品鏈非常的長。"},{"start":141.732,"end":141.792,"text":"﹝廖偉翔﹞"},{"start":158.434,"end":183.223,"text":"短期缺藥是可以透過很多手段解決但是如果是長期缺藥的話就要特別小心了所以我想問院長您同意這樣的看法嗎我覺得這個缺藥的問題確實是需要來很慎重的來解決但是衛福部也很用很大的心力來調整院長部長所以面對缺藥問題我之前有在委員會有做出決議包含說同時符合三個條件下"},{"start":183.763,"end":199.667,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":199.767,"end":217.015,"text":"的藥品清單中的藥品。第二個是鼓勵在地製造是希望可以穩定我們的供應鏈。那第三個就是三張以下的稀缺藥證。那院長這部分涉及修法請問4月中之前能否將此三項條件納入修法中的內容之中。"},{"start":218.562,"end":239.6,"text":"這一個部分我請衛福部來回答跟委員報告那委員所提出來這三個條件除了第一個那個醫學會認證因為我們在列這一個必要藥品的品項的時候都有跟醫學會這邊邀請他們確認過所以不一定需要再去寫一個說醫學會認證其他這三個部分的話我們都聲表贊同"},{"start":245.124,"end":269.112,"text":"現在是4月8日我們會召集相關的團體會做一個考量然後會送到健保的共理會議去所以4月底之前要完成這個所謂的規定的修改的話有一點點困難但是在上半年應該是沒有問題是好那請這個部長也盡快的加速進行"},{"start":269.952,"end":282.422,"text":"那我的條件之一是要釋法的二期之二的必要藥品清單嘛那既然是必要藥品代表這些藥品是不可或缺的目前總共是400多項但是院長你們知道這份清單多久才檢討一次嗎?"},{"start":283.973,"end":310.394,"text":"院長這個從食藥署的網頁依照我們公告的資料最近一次是去年的11月可是再上一次間隔了三年兩個月那在之前大概是平均約兩年所以院長部長既然是必要的藥品清單為何不能夠每年檢討一次尤其是現在的狀況之下因為現在國際上的供應鏈也仍然沒有很穩定所以我的具體建議本席的具體建議是說有沒有可能改成每年檢討一次"},{"start":311.115,"end":338.976,"text":"同時也在4月中之前或者是大概您剛才說時間時程上的部分可不可以提早的這個完成這個修法的預告作業?如果是每年檢討應該是可行的,那我們盡量來朝這個方向來做。好,謝謝。那再來院長部長,這個我們醫療的價值要等於我們醫療的品質也要等於我們醫療的點值,這樣的理念您認同嗎?"},{"start":340.537,"end":360.128,"text":"最後一個健保的是不是等於健保點值因為我們現在是在總額預算的制度下去運作所以這個加量的關係所以是院長但是健保的點值長年以來一直被貶值造成現在醫療的困境醫療體系的困境那所以我們醫界為了生存"},{"start":361.363,"end":375.996,"text":"過去常常大家聽到的這個藥價差、發展自費藥材、或者是最近的解除掛號費上限等等,我想這都是一介自救的手段。但也因為如此,我想整個醫療體系也會越來越扭曲,病患也不滿意。"},{"start":376.937,"end":398.634,"text":"所以院長你知道嗎醫療院所其實也不想這樣做但是這是為了生存也只能這麼做所以院長部長健保點值的這個老問題我想整個醫療體系不死不活那連我們台大院長都說醫療本業的利潤剩下1%如果他是企業的CEO他老早就被開除了請問院長你們現在還要調漲電價你認為台大吳院長所說的1%的利潤還有可能嗎"},{"start":405.114,"end":431.799,"text":"我想這個電價的調整如何來影響臺大醫院的營運我們需要再來評估電費所佔的百分比是多少但是呢我想我們依借大家所提出來的這些意見我們都會來作為檢討可是很重要的不要忘掉我們臺灣的健保還是在國人心目中是很好的一個制度要多方來考量"},{"start":432.239,"end":443.385,"text":"是,院長因為醫院裡面的急診加護病房一般病房的空調也是不能夠中斷的難不成醫院因為電價太高就要把它關掉嗎當然不會嘛,也不應該所以我們要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草"},{"start":444.349,"end":463.675,"text":"我們是覺得這樣不太合理所以院長像現在臺灣醫院協會醫事公會的全聯會護理師公會的全聯會還有我們臺灣私立醫院協會醫務管理學會等五大醫事團體聯合發出聲明欲請不要調漲醫療院所的電價請問院長你們可以答應嗎"},{"start":465.075,"end":487.964,"text":"院長下星期一就是4月1日這個調漲電價日所以我們希望本席希望本週五前是否可以給醫界一個答覆好嗎?這一個部分的話我們要來了解剛才我講過醫療院所的電費占他所有經營的這個百分比是多少我舉一個很簡單的例子比如說臺北捷運的話那我們調漲電價實際上對他的成本只影響1%"},{"start":489.685,"end":490.905,"text":"院長所以這個部分也要請你特別用心喔。"},{"start":515.433,"end":530.058,"text":"因為要請您特別留意或是更加的嚴議因為你們的經濟部講出來今天也承認說他的這個沒有考量到這個烘焙機這個烘焙機的這個成本所以你們講出那個兩塊錢真的是瞎扯的"},{"start":530.538,"end":532.559,"text":"建保制度的運作讓政府現在的醫療政策上只能夠頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。"},{"start":551.857,"end":571.145,"text":"那也因為這樣所以我說現在的健保可能有三苦病人痛苦家屬辛苦那醫護命苦但是最根本的性的問題也是剛剛在講的長期以來這個健保點值的問題因為總而上限的問題造成許多醫院必須到處挖東牆補西牆那院長部長這個你們同意嗎"},{"start":572.598,"end":598.275,"text":"這個我不同意啦我們的病人齁你看看醫院裡面很多的病人寫給醫護人員的他都是很感謝有健保有醫護人員所以他們在病的時間得到很好的照顧所以你現在就故意講反面的話我個人不贊成而且家屬有很多都是感謝我們醫護人員的努力所以你製造對立沒有辦法使得台灣的醫療產業得很好的運氣沒有院長我要跟您討論的是現在血汗醫護的問題喔"},{"start":602.537,"end":626.392,"text":"我要告訴你一個數據這兩年的健保浮動點值曾一度掉到0.8元以下但我們要說實際也有可能比這個更慘因為總額之下還有一個分區總額所以健保署的各分區業務組會跟他那個區域的各層級的醫院訂定一個目標額所以醫院也會想辦法可能會想辦法減少我們病患的就診數這就是所謂醫界裡面有在講的斷頭現象"},{"start":628.433,"end":649.701,"text":"所以實際的醫療服務量是可能根本沒有申報。這也就是醫院為什麼抱怨說做得越多領得越少或者是虧得越多。院長更動健保制度當然是知識體大所以必須要做好社會溝通才能夠在最少的阻力之下進行改革。但是現在醫護人力短缺等問題加上又要調漲電價所以這個醫療體系崩潰在極。"},{"start":652.822,"end":678.463,"text":"我已經在上週正式提出這個健全醫療發展特別條例是希望幫我們臺灣的醫療打強心針那這裡面最核心的也就是資本條例及本條例所編之特別預算通過後格計現保各分區各部門之總額浮動點值平均為打0.95元者應補足至0.95元基本上也就是希望保障點值最基本要0.95元"},{"start":679.925,"end":682.757,"text":"那這個部分也是要呼應我們一屆的主張"},{"start":684.622,"end":713.224,"text":"那另外要解決我們護理人力不足的部分我是針對地區級以上的醫院執行這個急性病床以及特殊病床照護的護理人員每月發給1萬元的津貼而且要撥補100億成立這個新藥發展基金這三個面向基本上是希望能夠幫助解決整個醫療體系現在的困境希望請問院長你們同意嗎部長同意嗎我覺得你完全不懂什麼叫做"},{"start":714.565,"end":739.919,"text":"建保的點子本來就是在建保整個的財務的運作裡面行之多年你這樣的情形有點外行我請我們部長回答這個特別條例要去保障點子是跟我們建保法裡面的總額預算的整個的制度是互相焊隔的所以如果萬一這一個特別條例通過的話"},{"start":741.274,"end":759.367,"text":"那實務上面怎麼樣去運用兩個不同的制度互相之間打架,這會產生很大的問題。是,部長我想跟你說的是健全醫療法人特別條例其實只有三年了,並且總額是3800億,我的想法是在不動總額的前提下,另外用這三年中的總額來補貼。你3800億是否是一個長期性的,"},{"start":765.931,"end":778.997,"text":"那這個常設性的是公務預算。公務預算怎麼用到健保的這個要怎麼樣算這個知識體大。而且是否都能夠每年有這樣子所謂的3800億這個是非常有問題的。"},{"start":782.359,"end":790.125,"text":"委員你一定要請教專家更深入了解這一個所有健保的財務才能夠做很好的調理。但是在溝通的時候除了醫療團體以外還有病人團體消費者團體還有學者專家通通要來考慮期望不要只針對單一的團體"},{"start":805.657,"end":808.058,"text":"也請這個院長部長先針對這個健保墊值常常在浮動的這個狀況。我剛剛提出的其實不只是這個部分。墊值就是會浮動。"},{"start":832.833,"end":852.47,"text":"對,但是他們現在需要是,是院長,因為我要跟你算的事情是這樣子啊,在疫情前平均是0.92的情況之下,大多數的一個層級的醫療院所,他們的獲利大概不到是5%,那其實他們對他們來講也很痛苦,在很多情況之下他也很難留財攬財,甚至也不敢做到這個醫療發展的部分喔。"},{"start":852.87,"end":881.599,"text":"所以這個部分是我希望說可以跟透過這樣子的聲音讓院長跟部長就是可以了解到有這樣的狀況然後也希望說有這樣子的特別條例也希望行政院如果你們有更好的版本如果你們可以提出來解決這樣的問題的話那本席也會支持喔所以我希望的是這件事情也要讓院長部長請你們好好的去理解最後我也想要花一點時間跟院長快問快答一下台中人口有多少"},{"start":883.322,"end":903.188,"text":"台中人口大概200多萬吧。284萬。那高雄人口有多少?這裡你已經有答案了。273萬。那高雄前瞻預算拿多少?這一個前瞻預算。1265億。院長我們這是快問快答好不好。台中前瞻預算拿多少?"},{"start":904.775,"end":916.972,"text":"228億好不好高雄巨蛋中央補助有多少7.5億台中巨蛋中央補助多少0元會展中心東側也是0元高雄捷運中央補助多少"},{"start":918.069,"end":918.249,"text":"﹚廖偉翔﹚"},{"start":946.926,"end":948.388,"text":"謝謝廖委員偉翔的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二號陳委員昭之子"}]}},{"id":"150409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eec1652f4418da2b2e8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6f2bb30dce88cf1a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:02:54 - 09:18:17","影片長度":"00:15:23","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":923,"end_time":"2024-03-26T09:18:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T09:02:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時3分）麻煩院長及法務部部長上臺。"],["主席：麻煩陳院長、法務部部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長早安。"],["陳院長建仁：早。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我現在要跟兩位就教的就是有關維護校園安全以及校園一些狀況的部分，我們來討論一下，我們第一個看到111年每10萬名12歲到24歲青少年犯罪人口的比率，跟107年比起來其實增加了22.7%，也就是說，很明顯青少年的這個問題一直在上升。院長，像您的社會流行病學也有提到社會致病因子，其實問題並不是單一一個，而是家庭、社會、教育等等非常多東西的累積，不是單就一個問題或是完全怪罪於少年。所以我今天要質詢的問題是，法務部現在是身為最高的司法行政機關，就這個部分你們有全國最好的偵查資源，貴部的檢察官也是偵查的主體，就源頭的打擊，就是有關我們要怎麼樣不讓黑幫進入校園，以及就末端的補救，也就是矯正的教育，對這個部分我想請您簡單的說一下有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在少年犯罪的這個部分，近年來確實像委員所講的是有增加的情況，那這裡面有一個蠻大的部分也是跟最近詐騙比較興盛有關，有蠻多的青少年都是當車手等等這樣的角色，當然遏止黑幫吸收少年進入幫派是相當重要，法務部在這方面是有一套很完整的作法，我是不是請部長簡單的說明一下？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，對於少年入黑幫的這個事情，我們在法制上，組織犯罪防制條例確實有一個明文規定，就是招募青少年進入幫派的話，我們現在有一個特別的處罰規定。至於少年如果犯了罪以後，是要先由少年法庭他們來做先議，先議完了以後認為有必要再做刑事的訴追，才會送到我們檢察官來偵查。至於如果判了要入監的時候，我們的矯正學校也有一個通盤、完整的矯正教育，讓他們在回歸社會的時候，是要繼續就學還是就業，都有一個完善的配套。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我跟您說一下，為什麼上一次割喉案之後，社會上又開始在吵死刑的議題？事實上，你說民眾會不會想要剝奪一個人的生命？我想大家都不會想，但是很多時候大家在吵這個死刑議題，為什麼有超過八成的民眾希望死刑的執行？就是因為其實很多時候是對於這個社會安全網已經破洞了，大家為了掩蓋心中的恐懼，當然他也有可能是為死者感到捨不得，因為這樣，所以大家才會回過頭來一直去爭執死刑存廢的問題。","因為我看到從1月9日到現在，部長那邊一直發的新聞稿就是這個執行死刑規則不是部長你改的對不對？你是依照以前的那個什麼辦法還是管理要點去……"],["蔡部長清祥：審查死刑的要點。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，並不是說你增加了什麼，但是我想要講的就是，像我們剛剛講的源頭打擊，或者是對於矯正機關，像少觀所、矯正學校，他們出來之後到底有沒有辦法融入這個社會、回去這個社會？能不能夠回到學校，不再惹事生非？我覺得這個是法務部的責任，也不能推給其他人，我想這個部長應該沒有意見吧！"],["蔡部長清祥：該我們要負責的，我們一定完全的負責，該我們要修的法規，我們也一定會修法規，但是死刑的問題，我想這個現在憲法法庭已經在審理當中了，我們就靜待他的最後決定。","吳委員宗憲；這個我知道。我是希望部裡面，因為從去年底到今年，其實部裡面一直有在談反滲透法還有認知作戰，我的意思是這樣，當然那些東西不是不能做，而是當我們把非常多的力氣讓部長、總長都一直出來講這個反滲透法，然後要檢察官一定要辦，結果呢？傳了這麼多人，我們花了那麼多力氣，到底價值在哪裡？將來我一定會盯這個點，就是當年傳喚的人數跟最後判決確定的人數的那個比例，我會把這個呈現出來給全國的國人，我覺得與其花力氣在這些東西上面，不如我們回過頭去想怎麼樣讓人民安居樂業，到底我們怎麼樣讓家長能夠安心的送小孩子到學校？","還有，我們也要去思考小朋友到這些矯正學校會不會越關越大尾，所以說為什麼青少年那個旋轉門效應很嚴重，就是進去、出來、進去、出來，一直很嚴重，這個我們都要去思考，到底有什麼問題。尤其是之前那個割喉案之後，我們從這個個案發現，從矯正機關出來是不是無法回歸社會？這一塊也麻煩部長你這邊能夠用心，然後我們去弄清楚我們的矯正系統到底出了什麼狀況。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，原來是少年輔育院，我們現在是改為矯正學校，用學校化的方式來教育這些青少年。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我要提醒一下，因為現在短影音變成是黑幫的推手，以前要去什麼撞球場、去電動玩具店找、吸收小朋友，現在不用，現在都是用影音，所以可能要麻煩院長，您也要看跨部會之間要怎麼樣合作，因為他們吸收新的未成年人的方式已經變了，那我們也要去改變，要因應這個改變的部分，不要讓學校變成是幫派人力的人力銀行，這一塊再麻煩……"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們有請教育部、內政部跟法務部一起來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我們就是就事論事，我們就事論事。再來，我們來談剛剛部長所說的死刑的部分，死刑到底要不要執行？我想請教部長，當外界都一直在說你那個執行死刑規則第二條，但是部長、法務部也多次一直對外說跟以前相比並沒有增加死刑不執行的空間，我想請問你，這個規則是你任內訂的，這個規則跟以前有沒有增加了死刑不執行的空間？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有，跟以前完全一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不要說重話啦！部長，這部分你可能誤解，我不要說你騙人，但你可能誤解了。","我們看一下審核死刑案件執行實施要點第二點以及執行死刑規則的第二條，來，你看一下，94年的實施要點有一個但書，就是說如果無理由或者是不受理而被駁回，用同一原因再度聲請者，不在此限。也就是說，如果他今天是用這些理由而被駁回的聲請釋憲，這個不在此限，也就是要執行。好，那我們再回過頭來看您的執行死刑規則第二條卻漏掉了這個但書，我們都知道立法者針對新法、舊法，如果舊法很多東西沒有過渡到新法，也就是說，它有意為之的讓這個部分就不需要再去審酌了，我想這樣非常的清楚，這個會導致什麼？我們都知道，舊法的時代如果聲請釋憲，可是被大法官用無理由或不受理駁回，你再聲請的話，依照以前的實施要點是不會甩你，我們就是執行！但是到現在的這個做法就不對了，現在這個做法只要他聲請的話，這個時候就不能夠處理，依照你的執行規則就不能夠處理啦！這個範圍變成不執行的空間放寬非常的大，並不像部長說的沒有增加空間。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，這個實施要點跟規則同時是並行，都是存在的，所以即使執行死刑規則沒有規定，但是實施要點仍然在，仍然要遵守。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣子不是疊床架屋嗎？同一個行為、同一件事情兩個東西在規範。如果照部長您這樣講的是對的話，我們幹嘛要從實施要點進到規則？這樣很奇怪啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：因為要讓它一致，所以……"],["吳委員宗憲：那是不是說規則有訂了、要點已經有，如果照你這樣講，還有規則存在，那你要點就不用訂啊！不就是我剛才講的疊床架屋嗎？還是部長你願不願意承諾，就執行死刑規則第二條的這個部分，請你把當初實施要點的但書加回去？因為這個部分是法務部就可以做了！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們非常願意，而且這個我們也同時在進行當中了，因為它是不是同一個原因，在我們送給釋憲大法官的時候，我們都已經有看過，所以目前的都不是相同的理由提出的，這是我第一個說明。第二個說明就是即使是同一個理由，憲法法院也可以駁回，駁回的話，這個釋憲的案子就結束了，我們就可以執行了。"],["吳委員宗憲：聲請到駁回還有一個時間，你也沒有規範他不可以重複聲請，聲請到駁回這個時間，他就一直跟你玩這個，所以我建議你還是要回去趕快把這個規則稍微改一下，好不好？這個部裡面就可以做這個決定了，不需要再經過立法院三讀。","再來我想提一個東西，如果實質廢死之下法務部都沒有什麼處理的話，我還是建議是不是我們要增列無期徒刑不得假釋的這個東西出來？讓將來法官在無期徒刑得假釋跟不得假釋有一個選擇的空間，這是實體法的部分，部裡面是不是可以考量這個地方？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們都會考量，不管死刑的規定將來如何的釋憲結果，我們都有充分的準備。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這個不能跟我說用研議喔，因為部長說過很多次研議，而研議這個東西，對以前我在帶法制局的同仁來說，研議的話就是同仁已經積極在處理了，所以這塊要麻煩部長趕快，不管廢不廢死，至少找一個能夠替代的東西出來，將來萬一有一天真的廢死的話，我們才來得及去因應。","最後，割喉案死者的父母──楊爸爸、楊媽媽有來找過那，我也滿感動的。部長，你愛家人在檢察界非常有名氣了，愛家人、愛小孩，我們都很知道，所以一定也能夠體會家族失去愛子的那種痛苦，我在這邊把死者的父親──楊爸爸、楊媽媽給我的一個聲明唸出來，「難道死者因為不能為自己說話就該白白冤死嗎？我們孩子的生命正要展開最美的人生時，卻無辜被折翼，難道凶手就可以再被所謂的人權保障？如此，請人權團體也還給我孩子的生命權，那我就不用再糾結了。凶手在逞凶時，凶殘至極，也沒有留給我兒子一點生的機會。法律本該捍衛生命安全，而非問我們要不要有死刑。難道法律要自白律法已死，人命不值錢嗎？請不要為了少數人的人權而損害大眾的生命安全。」部長，這個是家屬──楊爸爸、楊媽媽寫給我的，我看了也很難過。部長是我們中華民國死刑執行命令的簽署權人，你要有那個guts、擔當去做，這才是一個很盡責的部長。我三十三歲的時候就曾具體求處過死刑，那時候我也想過，具體求處死刑會不會讓我背這個業障？但是我那時候有一個想法，我是為全民的安全，為社會治安，所以我不應該思考這麼多，我要有那個肩膀、guts去扛這個，即便有業障，也麻煩部長能夠這樣想。"],["蔡部長清祥：我個人執行過兩件死刑。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以我並不會因為我個人的因素，我完全是依照法律的規定執行，如果所有的救濟程序都已經完畢，我們該執行就執行。對於被害人的家屬我們感同身受，所以一直非常強調犯罪被害保護的工作，我們都是一路相伴，也已經派人關心家屬，幫忙他，做任何的保護措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：人權保障，加害人跟被害人在天秤上是要平衡的，如果嚴重向加害人傾斜，你、我、我們都不應該向這樣的環境、這樣的人權團體、錯誤的人權團體低頭，我們絕對不能低頭。部長，你跟我都是檢察官出身，對於維護社會治安還有人民安居樂業，我們當年都有那種無可救藥的熱情，我想部長一定也是這樣。只有檢察官能夠為被害人申冤，也只有檢察官總是站在被害人那一邊，不是站在加害人那一側，所以檢察官要為公平正義奮鬥，絕對不能為政治服務。部長一定能夠理解，我也希望我們彼此都一本初衷，堅持原則，打擊邪惡跟犯罪。院長、部長，我們務必要對好人更好，對壞人更壞，我們要改善這個世界，讓社會能夠安居樂業。我今天要謝謝兩位，也希望我們就這麼堅持下去。謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們一起努力。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員宗憲的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後，我們進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（9時18分）","繼續開會（9時24分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.700343750000002,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.087843750000001,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.25534375,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.11159375,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.11096875,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.27909375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.16909375,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.143468750000004,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.64409375,"end":47.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.736593750000004,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.588468750000004,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":53.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.98034375,"end":55.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.485968750000005,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.41721875,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.38221875,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.66721875,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.30346875000001,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.07034375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.87909375,"end":182.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.77034375000002,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.60034375,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.32159375,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.71659375000002,"end":206.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.78346875000003,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.62221875,"end":223.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.11409375000002,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.81846875000002,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.36221875,"end":230.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.81346875000003,"end":232.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.38284375,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.20971875,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.39596875,"end":261.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.62721875,"end":274.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.88784375,"end":268.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.22846875,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.73034375000003,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.23159375,"end":285.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.74159375,"end":286.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.70346875,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.67784375,"end":293.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.61784375,"end":299.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.68034375,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.86159375,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.99221875,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.02159375,"end":311.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.89784375,"end":314.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.68221875,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.82471875000005,"end":325.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.02221875000004,"end":329.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.65034375000005,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.78909375,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.11721875,"end":340.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.31534375,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.15034375000005,"end":345.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.20471875000004,"end":352.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.07284375,"end":359.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.09284375000004,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.56346875,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.12034375,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.25096875,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.78221875,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.79034375000003,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.82784375,"end":385.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.28721875,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.19846875,"end":389.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.79284375000003,"end":390.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.28221875,"end":394.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.50096875,"end":397.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.17971875,"end":401.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.45346875,"end":401.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.55471875,"end":403.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.41096875000005,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.73096875000005,"end":413.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.02096875,"end":417.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.19346875,"end":419.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.01596875,"end":420.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.12971875000005,"end":424.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.47096875000005,"end":426.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.99784375,"end":432.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.21659375,"end":433.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.60034375000004,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.37659375000004,"end":436.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.80659375000005,"end":439.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.58659375,"end":442.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.54409375,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.88096875,"end":448.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.60221875,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.12096875000003,"end":455.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.31846875,"end":456.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.63034375,"end":461.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.91659375,"end":465.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.03409375,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.08846875,"end":485.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.00971875000005,"end":490.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.63784375000006,"end":491.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.86971875,"end":500.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.67846875000004,"end":503.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.10409375000006,"end":505.79159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.92659375000005,"end":508.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.43659375000004,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.4440937500001,"end":516.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.1653437499999,"end":519.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.2365937500001,"end":521.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.26159375,"end":522.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.3247187500001,"end":524.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.0122187500001,"end":528.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.16346875,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.1753437500001,"end":535.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.20034375,"end":539.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.0647187500001,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.0984687499999,"end":541.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.2709687500001,"end":553.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.1765937499999,"end":562.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.4209687499999,"end":555.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.64346875,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.86221875,"end":568.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.55409375,"end":569.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.83221875,"end":573.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.76409375,"end":578.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.4384687500001,"end":580.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8347187500001,"end":588.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.23846875,"end":594.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.67221875,"end":619.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.6897187500001,"end":634.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.36221875,"end":637.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.3997187500001,"end":639.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.24721875,"end":650.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.11909375,"end":655.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.30409375,"end":656.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.3628437500001,"end":658.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.0672187499999,"end":661.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.1384687500001,"end":669.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.76596875,"end":674.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.11971875,"end":675.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.5203437499999,"end":681.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.88221875,"end":682.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.7765937500001,"end":685.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.24034375,"end":685.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.2865937500001,"end":688.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.9697187500001,"end":693.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.71159375,"end":695.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.3272187500002,"end":696.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.5634687500001,"end":697.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.8459687500001,"end":700.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.9678437500002,"end":703.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.83659375,"end":705.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.4228437500001,"end":706.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.90784375,"end":707.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.17346875,"end":710.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.55284375,"end":713.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.3034687500001,"end":714.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.90659375,"end":717.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.8428437500002,"end":717.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.2478437500001,"end":720.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.54284375,"end":724.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.77409375,"end":726.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.14096875,"end":729.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.0178437500001,"end":732.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.7222187500001,"end":736.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.47284375,"end":737.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.26159375,"end":741.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.22721875,"end":747.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.4709687500001,"end":749.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.66471875,"end":754.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.6597187500001,"end":760.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.04284375,"end":765.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.0378437500001,"end":770.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.2903437500001,"end":771.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.77534375,"end":773.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.7834687500001,"end":775.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.55534375,"end":776.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.49596875,"end":777.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.1540937500001,"end":779.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.5547187500001,"end":782.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.28409375,"end":783.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.09409375,"end":786.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.9797187500001,"end":787.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.51971875,"end":792.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.1728437500001,"end":794.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.1303437500001,"end":797.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.17221875,"end":798.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.04534375,"end":800.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.4753437500001,"end":801.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.15034375,"end":804.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.32284375,"end":812.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":812.79846875,"end":826.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.1928437500001,"end":827.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.68221875,"end":827.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.71596875,"end":835.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.01971875,"end":828.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.56284375,"end":846.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.4440937500001,"end":839.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.4609687500001,"end":839.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.52846875,"end":839.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.5790937500001,"end":839.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.45159375,"end":849.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.36659375,"end":853.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.9565937500001,"end":856.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.7240937500001,"end":861.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.30971875,"end":869.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.5322187500001,"end":873.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.0209687500001,"end":874.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.21909375,"end":882.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.86346875,"end":886.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.47471875,"end":888.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.03971875,"end":892.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":892.68471875,"end":895.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":896.22846875,"end":897.4265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.73034375,"end":899.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.89034375,"end":907.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.5347187500001,"end":912.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":912.2765937500001,"end":913.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":914.33534375,"end":917.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":918.55409375,"end":919.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":920.7309687500001,"end":923.4140937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.449,"end":32.646,"text":"麻煩院長及法務部部長上台麻煩請陳院長、法務部長備選吳委員早院長、部長早安早那我現在要跟兩位就教的部分就是有關維護校園安全以及"},{"start":34.332,"end":61.342,"text":"校園的一些狀況一些部分我們來討論一下我們第一個看到就從111年每10萬名12歲到24歲的青少年犯罪人口比例跟107年比起來其實增加了22.7%也就是說很明顯這個青少年的這個問題一直在上升那像院長您的社會流行病學也有提到這個社會致病因子"},{"start":62.242,"end":86.088,"text":"其實問題並不是單一一個而是它是一個家庭社會教育等等非常多東西的累積不是單就一個問題或是完全怪罪少年所以我今天要質詢的問題是說法務部現在是身為最高的司法行政機關那就這個部分你們有全國最好的那個偵查資源"},{"start":86.724,"end":102.295,"text":"而貴部的檢察官也是偵查主體那就源頭的打擊就是有關那個黑幫我們要怎麼樣讓他不進入校園以及就末端的補救也就是矯正的教育這個部分我想您簡單的說一下有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":103.138,"end":103.158,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":119.67,"end":122.931,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是對於少年入黑幫的這個事情我們在法制上組織犯罪防制條例"},{"start":144.08,"end":144.841,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":166.238,"end":191.304,"text":"那至於如果判了要入監的時候我們的矯正學校也有一個通盤的一個完整的一個矯正的教育讓他們在回歸社會的時候是要繼續就學還是就業都有一個完善的配套部長其實齁我跟你們說一下就是說為什麼上一次割喉案之後社會上面又開始在炒這個死刑的議題事實上你說"},{"start":192.664,"end":211.957,"text":"民眾會不會想要剝奪一個人的生命我想大家都不會想但是很多時候大家在炒這個死刑為什麼超過八成的民眾希望死刑的執行就是因為其實很多時候是對於這個社會安全網已經破洞了大家為了掩蓋心中的恐懼當然他有可能是為死者感到那個捨不得"},{"start":212.677,"end":212.697,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":230.919,"end":230.939,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":256.434,"end":256.574,"text":"這我知道齁"},{"start":277.067,"end":299.319,"text":"我是希望部裡面因為在去年底到今年其實我們有很多這個部裡面其實一直有在談一個就是反滲透法還有這個認知作戰那我的意思是這樣當然那些東西不是不能做而是當我們把非常多的力氣讓部長總長都一直出來講這個反滲透法這個然後檢察官一定要辦"},{"start":301.002,"end":325.073,"text":"結果呢傳了這麼多人我們花了那麼多力氣那到底價值在哪裡將來我一定會盯這個點就是當年傳喚的人數跟最後判決確定的人數的那個比例我會把這個呈現出來給全國的國人那我覺得與其花力氣在這些東西上面不如我們來回過頭去想怎麼樣讓人民安居樂業到底我們怎麼樣讓家長能夠安心的送小孩子到學校"},{"start":326.773,"end":352.412,"text":"還有就是我們也要去思考小朋友到這些矯正學校會不會越關越大尾所以說為什麼青少年他那個旋轉門效應很嚴重就進去出來進去出來一直很嚴重這個我們都要去思考到底有了什麼問題那尤其是之前那個割喉案之後這個我們從這個個案發現其實矯正機關出來是不是有無法回歸社會那這一塊也麻煩"},{"start":353.372,"end":371.44,"text":"部長您這邊能夠用心然後我們去弄清楚我們的矯正系統到底出了什麼狀況跟委員說明一下就是原來是少年府醫院我們現在改為矯正學校用學校的學校化的方式來教育這些青少年"},{"start":373.243,"end":400.938,"text":"再來我就提醒一下因為現在短影音變成是黑幫的這個推手以前要去什麼撞球場去電動玩具店找吸收小朋友現在不用現在都是用那個影音嘛所以可能滿院長您也要這個跨部會之間要怎麼樣的合作因為他們吸收新的未成年人的方式已經變了那我們也要去改變要因應這個改變的部分不要讓學校變成是幫派人力的人力銀行"},{"start":404.12,"end":426.225,"text":"這個部分我們有請教育部、內政部跟保護部一起來努力。我們就是就事論事。再來我們來談論一個,就剛剛部長所說的死刑的部分,死刑到底要不要執行。當然我想請教部長,當外界都一直在說你那個死刑執行規則第二條,"},{"start":428.712,"end":455.958,"text":"但是部長也很多次的法務部也多次的一直對外說並沒有那個跟以前並沒有增加這個死刑執行的那個不執行的那個空間我想請問你這規則是你任內定的這個規則跟以前有沒有增加了死刑不執行的空間沒有跟以前完全一樣那部長我不要說重話啦部長這部分你可能誤解我不要說你騙人那你可能誤解來我們看一下"},{"start":457.894,"end":485.566,"text":"審核執行案件執行實施要點第二條以及執行執行規則的第二條來你看一下94年的施要點有一個但書就是說如果無理由或者是不受理而被駁回用同意原因在申請者不在此限也就是說如果他今天是用這些理由而被駁回的申請事項這個不在此限也就是要執行好那我們再回過頭來看您的"},{"start":487.065,"end":502.751,"text":"此行執行規則的第二條卻漏掉了這個但書那我們都知道立法者如果新法舊法新法的部分如果舊法很多東西沒有過渡到新法也就是說他有意為之的讓這個部分就不需要再去審酌了"},{"start":504.141,"end":522.628,"text":"我想這點非常的清楚嘛那這個會導致什麼我們都很我們都知道就法的時代如果你申請釋憲可是你用被大法官用無理由或不受理駁回你再申請的話依照以前的實施要點就這我不會甩你我們就執行但是到"},{"start":523.408,"end":523.589,"text":"公務委員說明一下"},{"start":543.728,"end":564.442,"text":"這個實施要點跟規則同時是並行都是存在的所以即使實行死刑規則沒有規定但是實行要點仍然在仍然要遵守那這樣子那不是跌床駕屋嗎同一個行為同一件事情兩個東西在規範那如果照部長您這樣講的是對的話那我們幹嘛要從實施要點進到規則"},{"start":567.746,"end":594.022,"text":"因為要讓他一次所以那你規則是不是說規則有定了你要點已經有那如果照你這樣講我還有規則存在那你要點就不用定啊那不是我就剛講的跌床架屋還是部長你願不願意承諾就實行執行規則第二條的這個部分請你把當初實施要點的但書把它加回去因為這個部分是法務部就可以做了"},{"start":594.943,"end":610.485,"text":"我們非常願意而且這個我們也同時在進行當中了因為他是不是同一個原因在我們送給市縣的大法官的時候我們都已經有看過所以目前的都不是相同的理由提出的所以我第一個說明"},{"start":610.805,"end":639.307,"text":"第二個說明就是說,即使是同一個理由,憲法法院也可以駁回。駁回的話,這個釋憲的案子就結束了,我們就可以執行了。申請到駁回還有一個時間。那你也沒有規範說他不可以重複申請。申請到駁回這個時間,他就一直跟你玩這個。所以我建議你還是要回去趕快把這個規則稍微改一下。好不好,這部裡面就可以做這個決定了,不需要我們再經過這個立法院刪讀。好,那再來我想提一個東西。"},{"start":641.223,"end":655.932,"text":"如果這個時事廢質下法務部都沒有什麼處理的話我還是建議是不是我們要針對無期徒刑不得假釋的這個東西出來讓將來法官在無期徒刑得假釋跟不得假釋他有一個選擇的空間"},{"start":657.661,"end":682.436,"text":"這是實體法的部分,部裡面是不是可以考量這個地方?是,我們都會考量。不管死刑的規定將來如何的釋憲結果,我們都有充分的準備。那部長這個不能跟我說用延譯喔,因為部長說過很多延譯嘛,很多次延譯。因為延譯這個東西對我以前我在代法治局的同仁來說,延譯的話就是同仁已經積極的在處理了。"},{"start":682.896,"end":694.867,"text":"所以這一塊要麻煩部長我們趕快不管廢不廢死至少找一個能夠替代的東西出來將來萬一有一天真的廢死的話我們才來得及去因應"},{"start":696.653,"end":724.079,"text":"最後我那個割喉案那個死者的父母養爸爸養媽媽來找過我那我也蠻感動那像部長你是愛家人嘛這個在檢察界非常有名氣了愛家人愛小孩我們都很知道所以一定也能夠體會家族這種失去愛子的那種痛苦那我在那邊我把那個死者的父親養爸爸養媽媽給我的一個聲明我唸出來"},{"start":726.034,"end":754.204,"text":"難道使者因為不能為自己說話就該白白冤死嗎?我們的孩子的生命正要展開最美的人生時卻無辜被責任難道兇手就可以再被所謂的人權保障如此請人權團體還給我孩子的生命權那我就不用再糾結了兇手在審兇時兇殘自己也沒有留給我兒子一點生的機會"},{"start":755.7,"end":782.351,"text":"法律本該捍衛生命安全,而非來問我們要不要有死刑。難道法律要自白律法已死,人命不值錢嗎?請不要為了少數人的人權而損害大眾的生命安全。部長這個是家屬、楊爸楊媽媽寫給我的,我看了我也很難過。那部長您是我們中華民國死刑執行命令的簽署權人。"},{"start":783.359,"end":783.379,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":801.459,"end":807.424,"text":"我個人執行過兩件事情所以我並不會因為我個人的因素我完全是依照法律的規定來執行如果所有的救濟程序都已經完畢的話我們該執行就執行"},{"start":827.239,"end":829.4,"text":"人權的考上加害人跟被害人是在天平是要平衡的"},{"start":850.447,"end":852.208,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":875.267,"end":898.846,"text":"只有檢察官能夠為被害人申冤也只有檢察官總是站在被害人那一邊不是站在加害人那一側所以檢察官要為公平正義在奮鬥絕對不能為政治服務部長一定能夠理解那我也希望說我們彼此都一本初衷堅持原則然後打擊這些邪惡跟犯罪那院長部長"},{"start":899.927,"end":914.443,"text":"我們務必要對好人更好,對壞人更壞。我們要改善這個世界,讓社會能夠安居樂業。我今天在這邊謝謝兩位,那我也希望我們就這麼堅持下去。我們一起來努力。謝謝吳委員、鍾憲仁的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。報議院會司法及法治組織質詢,"}]}},{"id":"15757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15757","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6098a978fa28129bee9f25e7ce585dad1573be8d109af184be40f6eca5e1cb9db365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-26","start_time":"2024-03-26T08:45:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-26T16:27:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":27779,"委員發言時間":"08:45:00 - 16:27:59","影片長度":"07:42:59","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1273.7897187500002,"end":1275.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1276.18596875,"end":1280.5059687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1281.56909375,"end":1288.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1288.58909375,"end":1289.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1289.9222187500002,"end":1292.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1292.50409375,"end":1294.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1295.2715937500002,"end":1298.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1298.98409375,"end":1300.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1301.0090937500001,"end":1301.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1302.51096875,"end":1305.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1305.5484687500002,"end":1311.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1312.07909375,"end":1313.7328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1314.2728437500002,"end":1316.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1317.3440937500002,"end":1318.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1319.1497187500001,"end":1321.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1321.8834687500002,"end":1329.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1330.1690937500002,"end":1333.9490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1334.3709687500002,"end":1338.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1339.4334687500002,"end":1343.3822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1344.12471875,"end":1348.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1349.7947187500001,"end":1350.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1353.11909375,"end":1355.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1356.0047187500002,"end":1356.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1356.64596875,"end":1356.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1357.06784375,"end":1360.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1361.4047187500003,"end":1371.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1371.6140937500002,"end":1375.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1376.8622187500002,"end":1385.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1386.19409375,"end":1387.2572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1387.99971875,"end":1388.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1388.69159375,"end":1388.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1389.29909375,"end":1391.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1391.79659375,"end":1394.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1395.6947187500002,"end":1397.3822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1397.9559687500002,"end":1400.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1401.1959687500002,"end":1402.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1402.9509687500001,"end":1404.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1404.9253437500001,"end":1408.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1409.3297187500002,"end":1411.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1412.35034375,"end":1415.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1415.59034375,"end":1418.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1421.05784375,"end":1426.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1427.08221875,"end":1430.1197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1430.47409375,"end":1432.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1443.14721875,"end":1446.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1447.51784375,"end":1450.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1455.6853437500001,"end":1456.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1457.5584687500002,"end":1461.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1461.55784375,"end":1465.1690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1465.7090937500002,"end":1466.4178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1467.59909375,"end":1469.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1469.59034375,"end":1474.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1474.5347187500001,"end":1478.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1479.0740937500002,"end":1480.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1481.1665937500002,"end":1483.6978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1484.0184687500002,"end":1484.6765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1484.9634687500002,"end":1487.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1487.4103437500003,"end":1488.9290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1489.38471875,"end":1491.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1491.91596875,"end":1499.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1499.8472187500001,"end":1507.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1507.81221875,"end":1510.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1510.5628437500002,"end":1519.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1520.08034375,"end":1522.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1522.86471875,"end":1525.2103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1525.7165937500001,"end":1532.3653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1532.4665937500001,"end":1535.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1536.38159375,"end":1568.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1568.27534375,"end":1615.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1616.2003437500002,"end":1623.6759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1624.0303437500002,"end":1625.0597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1625.7347187500002,"end":1635.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1636.23096875,"end":1639.9940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1640.2303437500002,"end":1644.3478437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1644.6009687500002,"end":1645.6134687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1646.0353437500003,"end":1657.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1657.5609687500003,"end":1659.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1659.2484687500003,"end":1662.4884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1662.79221875,"end":1663.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1664.2434687500001,"end":1665.8297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1665.8297187500002,"end":1667.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1666.6397187500002,"end":1689.4378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1689.80909375,"end":1694.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1695.0572187500002,"end":1708.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1701.31784375,"end":1701.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1701.3515937500001,"end":1701.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1708.6753437500001,"end":1709.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1710.17721875,"end":1715.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1715.66159375,"end":1718.6990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1719.18846875,"end":1720.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1720.1503437500003,"end":1721.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1722.1078437500003,"end":1727.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1728.03096875,"end":1732.9078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1733.11034375,"end":1733.4815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1734.2915937500002,"end":1734.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1735.4222187500002,"end":1736.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1736.4684687500003,"end":1737.8690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1737.9534687500002,"end":1740.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1741.0078437500001,"end":1744.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1745.3109687500003,"end":1747.9940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1748.1122187500002,"end":1754.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1754.2378437500001,"end":1758.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1759.4522187500002,"end":1762.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1763.08034375,"end":1765.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1766.2190937500002,"end":1772.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1772.5472187500002,"end":1773.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1773.7115937500002,"end":1779.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1779.6178437500002,"end":1786.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1786.5028437500002,"end":1792.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1793.5228437500002,"end":1805.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1805.9934687500001,"end":1806.3309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1806.5503437500001,"end":1807.4447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1807.6640937500001,"end":1809.9759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1810.2122187500001,"end":1811.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1812.2372187500002,"end":1815.0384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1815.3084687500002,"end":1818.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1818.7340937500003,"end":1819.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1819.6453437500002,"end":1823.0540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1823.23971875,"end":1823.4759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1823.6953437500001,"end":1827.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1827.89721875,"end":1831.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1831.6097187500002,"end":1837.3809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1836.8747187500003,"end":1842.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1841.1947187500002,"end":1847.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1848.4509687500001,"end":1851.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1851.6234687500003,"end":1853.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1853.47971875,"end":1854.1547187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1854.5765937500003,"end":1857.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1857.9009687500002,"end":1860.2803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1861.4109687500002,"end":1865.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1865.6465937500002,"end":1866.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1867.0303437500002,"end":1867.3847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1867.8065937500003,"end":1869.9159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1870.23659375,"end":1873.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1874.01659375,"end":1875.5015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1875.9740937500003,"end":1879.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1880.3109687500003,"end":1882.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1882.03221875,"end":1882.6734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1883.5509687500003,"end":1888.6303437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1888.78221875,"end":1889.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1891.0603437500001,"end":1894.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1895.3465937500002,"end":1898.7384687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1899.46409375,"end":1902.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1902.5184687500002,"end":1919.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1920.43971875,"end":1923.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1924.0509687500003,"end":1925.0128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1925.3165937500003,"end":1933.5853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1934.1084687500002,"end":1936.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1937.5340937500002,"end":1939.2047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1939.3565937500002,"end":1942.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1942.8497187500002,"end":1948.5365937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1948.8572187500001,"end":1950.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1950.5953437500002,"end":1953.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1953.6497187500001,"end":1955.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1955.6915937500003,"end":1956.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1956.7547187500002,"end":1958.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1958.4422187500002,"end":1962.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1962.5934687500003,"end":1967.4703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1967.6222187500002,"end":1969.3265937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1969.5965937500002,"end":1972.9378437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1973.4947187500002,"end":1976.3803437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1973.5115937500002,"end":1974.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1976.7009687500001,"end":1986.5897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1986.5897187500002,"end":1995.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1988.8340937500002,"end":1989.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1996.09034375,"end":1999.5497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2000.29221875,"end":2001.9122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2000.9672187500003,"end":2003.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2003.24534375,"end":2007.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2007.2447187500002,"end":2011.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2011.9022187500002,"end":2014.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2014.3153437500002,"end":2022.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2022.66846875,"end":2027.5115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2028.1022187500002,"end":2052.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2051.11971875,"end":2067.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2067.7753437500005,"end":2070.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2070.82971875,"end":2072.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2074.66034375,"end":2083.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2084.54909375,"end":2088.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2088.7340937500003,"end":2090.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2090.77596875,"end":2092.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2092.4803437500004,"end":2094.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2095.5515937500004,"end":2102.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2103.1959687500002,"end":2108.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2108.95034375,"end":2115.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2116.20659375,"end":2118.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2118.67034375,"end":2119.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2119.7165937500004,"end":2122.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2122.34909375,"end":2126.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2127.1247187500003,"end":2128.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2130.01034375,"end":2130.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2131.27596875,"end":2134.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2134.39784375,"end":2136.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2137.2665937500005,"end":2138.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2138.85284375,"end":2140.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2140.3378437500005,"end":2141.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2141.6034687500005,"end":2143.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2143.98284375,"end":2146.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2146.75034375,"end":2148.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2148.31971875,"end":2151.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2151.27284375,"end":2151.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2151.6609687500004,"end":2153.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2153.97284375,"end":2157.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2159.2040937500005,"end":2160.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2160.5709687500002,"end":2163.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2165.44784375,"end":2166.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2167.1522187500004,"end":2169.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2169.9365937500006,"end":2171.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2171.6747187500005,"end":2174.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2175.6572187500005,"end":2179.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2179.23471875,"end":2181.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2181.90096875,"end":2183.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2184.0947187500005,"end":2188.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2189.07284375,"end":2193.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2194.47284375,"end":2198.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2199.4678437500006,"end":2203.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2203.72034375,"end":2204.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2205.20534375,"end":2206.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2207.21346875,"end":2208.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2209.00221875,"end":2210.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2210.92596875,"end":2211.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2211.5840937500006,"end":2212.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2212.9678437500006,"end":2216.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2216.71409375,"end":2217.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2217.5240937500002,"end":2219.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2220.40971875,"end":2220.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2220.94971875,"end":2226.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2226.5690937500003,"end":2228.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2228.5603437500004,"end":2230.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2230.6022187500002,"end":2232.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2232.4753437500003,"end":2234.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2234.8884687500004,"end":2235.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2235.58034375,"end":2238.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2238.76971875,"end":2246.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2246.2115937500002,"end":2260.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2260.6228437500004,"end":2261.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2261.12909375,"end":2266.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2261.43284375,"end":2261.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2266.91721875,"end":2268.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2268.9928437500002,"end":2279.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2272.8740937500006,"end":2273.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2278.8815937500003,"end":2282.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2282.7965937500003,"end":2287.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2287.40346875,"end":2289.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2290.1540937500004,"end":2294.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2295.72284375,"end":2295.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2295.9422187500004,"end":2306.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2307.0459687500006,"end":2307.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2307.43409375,"end":2307.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2308.6490937500002,"end":2315.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2316.29346875,"end":2319.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2319.88784375,"end":2322.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2322.43596875,"end":2325.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2326.11471875,"end":2329.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2329.65846875,"end":2330.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2331.16034375,"end":2332.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2333.3203437500006,"end":2340.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2340.9647187500004,"end":2345.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2345.7234687500004,"end":2345.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2345.9597187500003,"end":2347.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2347.74846875,"end":2351.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2351.96721875,"end":2352.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2354.19471875,"end":2357.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2358.29534375,"end":2359.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2360.1178437500002,"end":2361.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2361.4003437500005,"end":2366.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2711.4215937500003,"end":2720.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2737.7634687500004,"end":2742.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2742.6065937500007,"end":2744.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2744.90159375,"end":2746.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2749.9978437500004,"end":2750.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2751.4997187500003,"end":2751.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2751.53346875,"end":2752.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2752.02284375,"end":2752.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2752.07346875,"end":2752.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2757.1697187500004,"end":2763.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2763.5147187500006,"end":2766.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2766.83909375,"end":2767.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2767.3115937500006,"end":2769.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2770.1972187500005,"end":2773.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2773.35284375,"end":2776.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2777.14971875,"end":2780.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2781.1659687500005,"end":2791.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2792.28659375,"end":2807.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2808.13221875,"end":2812.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2812.0303437500006,"end":2812.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2813.75159375,"end":2825.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2823.48846875,"end":2825.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2825.8678437500002,"end":2825.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2825.8847187500005,"end":2825.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2825.90159375,"end":2825.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2825.91846875,"end":2832.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2826.2897187500002,"end":2827.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2827.3865937500004,"end":2827.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2827.6903437500005,"end":2827.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2827.90971875,"end":2827.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2830.5928437500006,"end":2830.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2831.21721875,"end":2846.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2833.61346875,"end":2833.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2846.7928437500004,"end":2851.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2851.63596875,"end":2852.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2852.3447187500005,"end":2861.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2861.40659375,"end":2872.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2872.3584687500006,"end":2885.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2885.03159375,"end":2894.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2890.8365937500002,"end":2891.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2891.3934687500005,"end":2891.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2894.1609687500004,"end":2894.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2894.5322187500005,"end":2894.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2894.97096875,"end":2900.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2895.0553437500002,"end":2895.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2895.8990937500002,"end":2896.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2896.2703437500004,"end":2896.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2900.82659375,"end":2904.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2904.4209687500006,"end":2909.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2910.1247187500003,"end":2916.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2917.14471875,"end":2919.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2919.43971875,"end":2920.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2921.4140937500006,"end":2925.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2925.90284375,"end":2928.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2928.78846875,"end":2930.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2931.15096875,"end":2932.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2933.00721875,"end":2937.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2937.47909375,"end":2937.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2938.0865937500002,"end":2940.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2939.75721875,"end":2959.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2940.0272187500004,"end":2940.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2958.48846875,"end":2959.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2959.5515937500004,"end":2984.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2959.5684687500006,"end":2960.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2984.8640937500004,"end":3002.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3003.62909375,"end":3010.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3010.4297187500006,"end":3012.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3012.4209687500006,"end":3014.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3015.1715937500003,"end":3021.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3022.2253437500003,"end":3025.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3025.4315937500005,"end":3030.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3030.7809687500003,"end":3040.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3040.46721875,"end":3046.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3043.4372187500003,"end":3043.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3047.38596875,"end":3048.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3049.27596875,"end":3059.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3059.7722187500003,"end":3061.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3061.5272187500004,"end":3070.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3066.15096875,"end":3066.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3066.8259687500004,"end":3067.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3070.23471875,"end":3080.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3080.8828437500006,"end":3090.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3091.2272187500002,"end":3096.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3096.5597187500007,"end":3101.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3101.99346875,"end":3109.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3110.0597187500007,"end":3117.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3117.29909375,"end":3123.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3123.88034375,"end":3123.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3124.77471875,"end":3124.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3124.79159375,"end":3143.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3134.0390937500006,"end":3134.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3140.1815937500005,"end":3140.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3140.26596875,"end":3140.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3142.42596875,"end":3142.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3143.5059687500006,"end":3143.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3143.5059687500006,"end":3150.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3143.5565937500005,"end":3143.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3143.57346875,"end":3144.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3150.9647187500004,"end":3151.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3151.0322187500005,"end":3151.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3151.6903437500005,"end":3163.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3164.00909375,"end":3169.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3169.91534375,"end":3183.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3184.6134687500007,"end":3192.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3192.03846875,"end":3232.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3219.3253437500007,"end":3220.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3221.02971875,"end":3221.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3225.7715937500006,"end":3226.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3232.4372187500003,"end":3237.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3232.4540937500005,"end":3233.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3238.0565937500005,"end":3238.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3238.9678437500006,"end":3241.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3242.2078437500004,"end":3250.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3250.0378437500003,"end":3250.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3250.2403437500006,"end":3252.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3250.4090937500005,"end":3252.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3252.7715937500006,"end":3258.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3255.1678437500004,"end":3256.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3256.5009687500005,"end":3258.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3258.9647187500004,"end":3278.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3262.37346875,"end":3263.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3278.3203437500006,"end":3282.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3283.09596875,"end":3287.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3288.2597187500005,"end":3289.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3289.79534375,"end":3291.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3291.0272187500004,"end":3291.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3291.97221875,"end":3291.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3291.9890937500004,"end":3293.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3293.3897187500006,"end":3315.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3293.52471875,"end":3293.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3296.5284687500007,"end":3297.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3301.60784375,"end":3305.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3308.3915937500005,"end":3309.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3311.2772187500004,"end":3318.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3315.1247187500003,"end":3315.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3315.1415937500005,"end":3315.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3316.7784687500007,"end":3327.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3327.71346875,"end":3329.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3330.2615937500004,"end":3331.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3332.3034687500003,"end":3333.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3333.83909375,"end":3335.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3335.05409375,"end":3339.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3339.6778437500006,"end":3342.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3343.18784375,"end":3357.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3357.5147187500006,"end":3365.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3366.1209687500004,"end":3369.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3369.9178437500004,"end":3372.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3372.48284375,"end":3373.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3373.6640937500006,"end":3377.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3377.2753437500005,"end":3386.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3386.9615937500002,"end":3399.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3399.55034375,"end":3403.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3404.24159375,"end":3416.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3416.9822187500004,"end":3417.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3418.3322187500007,"end":3419.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3419.78346875,"end":3421.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3421.77471875,"end":3427.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3427.4109687500004,"end":3427.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3428.23784375,"end":3431.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3431.0390937500006,"end":3433.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3434.1609687500004,"end":3445.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3444.7078437500004,"end":3445.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3445.39971875,"end":3445.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3445.6697187500004,"end":3445.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3445.72034375,"end":3445.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3445.7372187500005,"end":3445.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3445.7878437500003,"end":3446.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3446.19284375,"end":3456.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3457.53284375,"end":3460.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3460.9415937500007,"end":3469.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3468.2653437500003,"end":3468.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3469.0753437500007,"end":3479.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3470.30721875,"end":3470.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3477.05721875,"end":3479.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3479.2340937500003,"end":3479.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3479.4197187500004,"end":3479.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3479.87534375,"end":3479.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3479.89221875,"end":3480.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3479.89221875,"end":3501.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3480.9215937500003,"end":3481.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3501.3572187500004,"end":3510.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3502.36971875,"end":3502.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3505.5928437500006,"end":3513.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3512.59596875,"end":3541.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3513.45659375,"end":3514.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3519.5653437500005,"end":3520.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3520.13909375,"end":3520.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3520.37534375,"end":3520.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3520.4090937500005,"end":3520.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3525.3534687500005,"end":3525.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3527.8847187500005,"end":3527.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3529.8084687500004,"end":3530.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3536.94659375,"end":3537.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3540.57471875,"end":3550.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3541.5703437500006,"end":3541.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3550.2440937500005,"end":3551.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3552.4715937500005,"end":3562.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3552.4884687500007,"end":3554.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3562.7147187500004,"end":3566.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3566.6803437500002,"end":3582.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3575.89409375,"end":3577.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3583.16721875,"end":3595.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3595.9415937500007,"end":3596.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3596.9540937500005,"end":3599.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3600.34596875,"end":3601.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3602.9784687500005,"end":3607.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3606.26909375,"end":3608.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3608.7665937500005,"end":3612.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3611.1290937500007,"end":3612.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3612.4959687500004,"end":3612.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3612.5465937500003,"end":3612.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3612.5634687500005,"end":3613.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3613.96409375,"end":3614.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3615.8034687500003,"end":3621.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3617.5078437500006,"end":3617.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3621.6590937500005,"end":3623.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3624.0722187500005,"end":3625.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3625.67534375,"end":3628.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3628.72971875,"end":3629.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3629.6072187500004,"end":3631.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3631.7840937500005,"end":3632.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3632.5603437500004,"end":3634.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3634.9734687500004,"end":3636.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3637.72409375,"end":3638.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3639.0909687500007,"end":3641.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3641.7740937500002,"end":3645.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3645.80721875,"end":3657.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3657.48471875,"end":3658.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3658.6659687500005,"end":3660.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3666.5634687500005,"end":3669.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3671.28846875,"end":3673.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3674.0897187500004,"end":3675.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3705.29159375,"end":3707.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3707.7384687500007,"end":3709.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3709.74659375,"end":3712.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3717.10409375,"end":3717.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3718.65659375,"end":3719.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3724.02284375,"end":3727.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3724.1915937500007,"end":3724.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3724.25909375,"end":3724.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3724.7822187500005,"end":3724.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3727.9884687500007,"end":3729.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3729.99659375,"end":3730.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3731.97096875,"end":3733.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3734.70471875,"end":3735.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3736.08846875,"end":3737.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3738.07971875,"end":3738.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3740.0878437500005,"end":3740.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3741.4209687500006,"end":3743.5978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3744.7284687500005,"end":3746.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3747.22596875,"end":3749.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3749.6728437500005,"end":3751.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3751.81596875,"end":3753.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3754.0603437500004,"end":3755.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3757.11471875,"end":3758.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3759.3253437500007,"end":3760.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3761.0634687500005,"end":3763.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3764.28659375,"end":3766.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3766.9528437500003,"end":3767.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3768.6065937500007,"end":3769.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3770.14221875,"end":3771.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3771.45846875,"end":3773.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3774.52971875,"end":3775.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3776.4365937500006,"end":3784.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3779.1365937500004,"end":3779.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3781.4147187500002,"end":3783.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3783.81096875,"end":3785.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3785.9540937500005,"end":3786.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3786.1228437500004,"end":3788.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3789.5147187500006,"end":3791.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3793.04159375,"end":3796.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3796.8047187500006,"end":3798.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3799.35284375,"end":3800.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3801.9853437500005,"end":3806.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3807.5878437500005,"end":3811.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3812.0597187500007,"end":3812.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3814.06784375,"end":3814.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3815.40096875,"end":3816.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3816.97034375,"end":3817.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3819.07971875,"end":3820.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3820.44659375,"end":3822.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3824.0240937500002,"end":3826.1672187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3827.21346875,"end":3828.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3829.01909375,"end":3831.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3831.85409375,"end":3832.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3833.59221875,"end":3834.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3836.37659375,"end":3837.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3838.28346875,"end":3840.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3841.13534375,"end":3843.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3844.13909375,"end":3844.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3845.87721875,"end":3847.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3848.3747187500003,"end":3850.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3851.31096875,"end":3852.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3854.19659375,"end":3856.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3856.42409375,"end":3857.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3857.52096875,"end":3857.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3858.41534375,"end":3869.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3863.6465937500006,"end":3864.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3869.8397187500004,"end":3873.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3874.39596875,"end":3877.6359687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3876.45471875,"end":3876.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3876.99471875,"end":3877.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3877.0115937500004,"end":3877.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3877.0284687500007,"end":3877.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3877.1297187500004,"end":3877.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3877.7878437500003,"end":3880.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3880.1672187500008,"end":3883.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3883.8797187500004,"end":3885.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3885.9384687500005,"end":3887.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3886.5290937500004,"end":3888.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3888.8747187500003,"end":3924.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3920.19471875,"end":3921.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3922.5740937500004,"end":3926.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3926.89409375,"end":3931.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3931.95659375,"end":3933.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3933.9140937500006,"end":3937.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3937.67721875,"end":3941.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3943.34721875,"end":3949.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3949.96221875,"end":3952.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3952.62846875,"end":3959.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3960.15471875,"end":3962.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3963.17534375,"end":3966.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3966.78659375,"end":3968.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3969.50346875,"end":3971.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3971.6972187500005,"end":3974.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3974.85284375,"end":3977.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3978.1940937500003,"end":3980.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3981.2315937500007,"end":3983.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3983.9990937500006,"end":3984.7922187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3984.92721875,"end":3988.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3988.47096875,"end":3991.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3992.0147187500006,"end":3993.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3994.3097187500007,"end":3999.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3999.4059687500003,"end":4000.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4000.53659375,"end":4003.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4004.3165937500007,"end":4006.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4006.4597187500003,"end":4007.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4008.7715937500006,"end":4009.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4009.8515937500006,"end":4010.5265937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4011.38721875,"end":4018.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4018.5253437500005,"end":4021.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4022.47409375,"end":4025.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4025.6297187500004,"end":4035.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4035.8222187500005,"end":4044.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4045.7109687500006,"end":4049.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4047.48284375,"end":4054.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4055.00909375,"end":4061.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4062.2653437500003,"end":4068.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4068.34034375,"end":4080.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4080.3047187500006,"end":4082.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4082.2453437500008,"end":4090.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4091.0878437500005,"end":4093.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4094.9522187500006,"end":4096.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4097.061593750001,"end":4098.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4099.71096875,"end":4103.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4104.06471875,"end":4107.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4104.35159375,"end":4104.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4107.99659375,"end":4110.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4111.304093750001,"end":4114.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4115.185343749999,"end":4115.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4116.029093749999,"end":4118.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4120.0115937499995,"end":4123.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4123.589093750001,"end":4125.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4125.9178437499995,"end":4126.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4127.284718749999,"end":4129.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4131.16596875,"end":4133.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4134.169718749999,"end":4134.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4135.36784375,"end":4137.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4138.810343749999,"end":4141.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4141.98284375,"end":4143.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4143.653468750001,"end":4144.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4144.9022187499995,"end":4147.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4148.59784375,"end":4151.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4152.175343749999,"end":4153.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4154.807843750001,"end":4156.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4157.11971875,"end":4158.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4160.005343750001,"end":4160.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4161.11909375,"end":4164.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4164.409718749999,"end":4167.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4167.278468750001,"end":4172.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4173.25221875,"end":4174.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4175.243468750001,"end":4177.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4180.08659375,"end":4182.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4183.866593750001,"end":4185.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4188.7772187499995,"end":4194.362843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4195.27409375,"end":4195.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4196.96159375,"end":4198.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4198.5478437500005,"end":4201.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4202.41221875,"end":4203.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4204.04909375,"end":4205.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4206.44534375,"end":4207.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4208.622218750001,"end":4209.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4210.56284375,"end":4211.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4212.30096875,"end":4215.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4215.70971875,"end":4216.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4217.12721875,"end":4219.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4219.60784375,"end":4222.628468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4223.32034375,"end":4228.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4228.97346875,"end":4231.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4232.432843750001,"end":4235.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4235.53784375,"end":4239.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4240.110968749999,"end":4241.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4241.899718750001,"end":4243.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4244.83596875,"end":4245.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4246.354718750001,"end":4247.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4247.55284375,"end":4250.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4251.72096875,"end":4254.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4254.555968750001,"end":4257.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4259.12909375,"end":4262.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4263.29721875,"end":4264.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4265.22096875,"end":4267.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4268.17409375,"end":4269.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4271.36346875,"end":4273.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4274.147843750001,"end":4275.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4276.08846875,"end":4277.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4278.16409375,"end":4280.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4280.610968749999,"end":4282.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4285.437218749999,"end":4287.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4287.76596875,"end":4289.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4289.9090937500005,"end":4292.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4292.895968750001,"end":4293.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4295.055968750001,"end":4296.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4296.67596875,"end":4297.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4298.97096875,"end":4300.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4301.620343750001,"end":4302.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4303.13909375,"end":4303.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4306.530968749999,"end":4309.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4309.83846875,"end":4310.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4311.72846875,"end":4313.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4313.34846875,"end":4314.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4315.964093750001,"end":4317.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4318.765343749999,"end":4321.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4322.44409375,"end":4324.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4326.780968749999,"end":4330.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4331.522843750001,"end":4333.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4333.37909375,"end":4336.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4338.81284375,"end":4339.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4339.8759687500005,"end":4341.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4341.90096875,"end":4342.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4342.862843749999,"end":4344.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4346.69346875,"end":4349.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4349.91659375,"end":4354.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4356.63284375,"end":4359.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4359.6365937499995,"end":4361.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4362.62346875,"end":4364.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4364.6990937499995,"end":4366.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4366.403468750001,"end":4367.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4369.069718750001,"end":4370.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4370.571593750001,"end":4372.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4372.124093750001,"end":4373.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4375.33034375,"end":4379.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4379.63346875,"end":4380.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4383.86909375,"end":4386.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4386.974093750001,"end":4388.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4388.7459687499995,"end":4390.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4390.51784375,"end":4392.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4393.52159375,"end":4395.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4396.79534375,"end":4398.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4399.69784375,"end":4402.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4404.67596875,"end":4407.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4407.62909375,"end":4413.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4413.85596875,"end":4416.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4419.137843750001,"end":4423.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4423.93034375,"end":4424.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4425.077843749999,"end":4426.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4426.967843750001,"end":4428.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4429.448468750001,"end":4430.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4430.477843750001,"end":4434.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4436.569718750001,"end":4440.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4440.467843750001,"end":4443.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4444.88909375,"end":4445.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4446.05346875,"end":4449.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4449.63096875,"end":4452.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4452.600968750001,"end":4456.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4455.2840937500005,"end":4455.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4458.6590937500005,"end":4460.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4460.83596875,"end":4461.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4462.624718749999,"end":4464.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4465.206593749999,"end":4467.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4467.58596875,"end":4468.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4469.40846875,"end":4470.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4471.5009687500005,"end":4473.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4473.8465937500005,"end":4474.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4475.466593749999,"end":4476.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4476.884093750001,"end":4478.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4480.124093750001,"end":4481.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4481.92971875,"end":4483.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4484.25846875,"end":4485.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4486.18221875,"end":4491.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4493.64096875,"end":4496.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4498.18034375,"end":4499.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4500.57659375,"end":4502.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4502.68596875,"end":4505.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4506.7528437500005,"end":4510.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4511.764718750001,"end":4513.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4513.99221875,"end":4518.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4518.53159375,"end":4521.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4523.96534375,"end":4525.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4526.614718750001,"end":4527.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4528.352843750001,"end":4529.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4529.92221875,"end":4532.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4533.3309687500005,"end":4534.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4534.495343750001,"end":4534.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4535.5584687499995,"end":4537.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4538.73096875,"end":4539.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4542.00471875,"end":4544.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4545.53159375,"end":4547.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4548.06284375,"end":4553.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4554.07034375,"end":4560.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4561.98471875,"end":4563.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4563.72284375,"end":4565.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4565.12346875,"end":4566.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4567.2665937500005,"end":4571.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4572.61596875,"end":4575.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4576.210343750001,"end":4577.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4579.36596875,"end":4580.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4582.6903437500005,"end":4584.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4584.9853437500005,"end":4589.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4589.59221875,"end":4592.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4592.49471875,"end":4594.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4594.857218749999,"end":4595.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4597.42221875,"end":4600.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4601.91096875,"end":4603.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4604.22284375,"end":4605.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4606.5009687500005,"end":4608.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4609.352843750001,"end":4613.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4615.05659375,"end":4618.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4618.56659375,"end":4623.831593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4624.42221875,"end":4626.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4629.180968750001,"end":4631.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4633.12971875,"end":4637.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4638.175343749999,"end":4640.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4641.685343749999,"end":4643.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4644.99284375,"end":4646.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4648.2665937500005,"end":4651.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4652.4178437499995,"end":4653.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4655.32034375,"end":4658.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4658.847218749999,"end":4660.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4661.850968750001,"end":4663.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4663.859093749999,"end":4665.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4665.411593750001,"end":4669.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4669.5965937500005,"end":4672.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4672.83659375,"end":4673.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4675.215968750001,"end":4678.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4679.4178437499995,"end":4681.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4682.421593749999,"end":4686.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4687.399718750001,"end":4691.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4692.462218750001,"end":4693.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4695.685343749999,"end":4696.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4698.081593749999,"end":4698.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4700.20784375,"end":4703.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4703.65034375,"end":4705.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4706.434718750001,"end":4709.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4710.045968750001,"end":4712.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4713.876593749999,"end":4715.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4718.07846875,"end":4721.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4722.3309687500005,"end":4723.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4724.92971875,"end":4728.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4728.827843749999,"end":4732.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4733.232218749999,"end":4735.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4735.442843750001,"end":4737.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4737.839093750001,"end":4741.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4743.01971875,"end":4744.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4745.280968749999,"end":4746.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4746.462218750001,"end":4748.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4749.58409375,"end":4751.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4752.419093750001,"end":4756.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4757.81909375,"end":4759.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4760.147843750001,"end":4769.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4769.96909375,"end":4772.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4772.804093750001,"end":4774.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4775.099093750001,"end":4777.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4778.710343750001,"end":4779.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4780.04346875,"end":4780.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4780.904093749999,"end":4783.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4784.1103437500005,"end":4785.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4787.0634687500005,"end":4788.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4791.67034375,"end":4794.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4795.80471875,"end":4797.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4799.2303437499995,"end":4801.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4802.11596875,"end":4802.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4803.85409375,"end":4809.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4810.030343750001,"end":4814.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4815.05909375,"end":4816.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4816.93221875,"end":4820.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4821.75846875,"end":4823.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4824.52596875,"end":4826.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4826.432843750001,"end":4828.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4829.385968750001,"end":4832.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4832.72721875,"end":4835.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4835.612843750001,"end":4837.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4839.07221875,"end":4840.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4841.654093749999,"end":4843.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4843.93221875,"end":4845.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4847.425343750001,"end":4848.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4849.399718750001,"end":4854.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4854.9853437500005,"end":4859.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4860.30096875,"end":4865.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4865.9540937500005,"end":4867.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4869.95346875,"end":4871.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4871.522843750001,"end":4876.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4877.2772187499995,"end":4881.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4883.200343750001,"end":4884.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4885.27596875,"end":4895.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4896.126593749999,"end":4898.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4899.33284375,"end":4900.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4901.3915937500005,"end":4903.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4903.8553437499995,"end":4905.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4905.23909375,"end":4907.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4909.03596875,"end":4912.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4912.495343750001,"end":4913.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4913.760968750001,"end":4915.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4915.634093750001,"end":4916.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4917.6590937500005,"end":4926.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4926.839093750001,"end":4928.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4929.134093750001,"end":4935.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4936.592843750001,"end":4942.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4942.75221875,"end":4943.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4944.06846875,"end":4952.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4952.82659375,"end":4953.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4953.7040937500005,"end":4955.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4956.083468750001,"end":4957.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4957.635968750001,"end":4962.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4962.19221875,"end":4962.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4962.698468750001,"end":4963.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4964.55471875,"end":4965.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4965.4490937499995,"end":4967.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4966.27596875,"end":4968.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4968.75659375,"end":4971.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4972.55346875,"end":4975.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4976.97471875,"end":4982.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4982.3240937499995,"end":4985.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4986.67784375,"end":4992.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4993.073468750001,"end":4995.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4994.153468750001,"end":4997.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4997.8153437500005,"end":4999.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4999.536593750001,"end":5000.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5001.224093750001,"end":5003.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5004.00846875,"end":5007.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5007.552218750001,"end":5014.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5014.622843749999,"end":5017.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5017.89659375,"end":5019.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5020.27596875,"end":5022.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5022.67221875,"end":5025.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5025.3553437499995,"end":5029.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5030.0634687500005,"end":5034.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5034.9403437500005,"end":5038.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5038.7372187500005,"end":5039.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5040.23909375,"end":5043.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5044.37346875,"end":5046.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5047.74846875,"end":5051.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5051.899718750001,"end":5057.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5057.856593750001,"end":5059.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5059.729718750001,"end":5062.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5062.682843750001,"end":5064.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5064.927218750001,"end":5066.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5066.665343750001,"end":5069.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5069.83784375,"end":5081.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5081.78534375,"end":5100.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5099.841593749999,"end":5106.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5106.591593749999,"end":5111.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5106.86159375,"end":5109.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5110.79346875,"end":5114.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5112.075968749999,"end":5112.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5115.14721875,"end":5117.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5118.218468749999,"end":5122.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5122.859093749999,"end":5127.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5127.786593750001,"end":5130.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5131.17846875,"end":5133.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5133.86159375,"end":5146.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5146.61909375,"end":5151.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5151.90096875,"end":5158.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5158.70159375,"end":5161.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5160.91221875,"end":5162.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5162.92034375,"end":5165.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5163.882218750001,"end":5166.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5166.700343750001,"end":5172.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5172.85971875,"end":5177.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5177.92221875,"end":5183.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5183.997218750001,"end":5187.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5188.13159375,"end":5197.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5192.08034375,"end":5192.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5192.147843750001,"end":5192.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5192.78909375,"end":5192.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5198.12159375,"end":5202.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5203.015343749999,"end":5204.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5205.19221875,"end":5205.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5207.284718750001,"end":5209.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5210.001593749999,"end":5210.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5211.739718750001,"end":5217.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5217.84846875,"end":5219.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5220.05909375,"end":5225.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5225.526593750001,"end":5226.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5227.09596875,"end":5232.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5233.89659375,"end":5244.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5245.08471875,"end":5247.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5247.95346875,"end":5249.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5250.7040937500005,"end":5251.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5251.66596875,"end":5253.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5253.99471875,"end":5259.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5259.732218749999,"end":5267.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5267.20784375,"end":5267.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5268.06846875,"end":5270.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5270.802218750001,"end":5272.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5272.810343749999,"end":5275.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5276.2528437500005,"end":5279.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5280.53909375,"end":5281.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5281.41659375,"end":5282.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5282.007218750001,"end":5283.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5284.0322187500005,"end":5286.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5286.85034375,"end":5291.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5292.216593749999,"end":5298.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5297.1103437500005,"end":5309.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5309.665343750001,"end":5312.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5312.6522187499995,"end":5314.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5314.47471875,"end":5317.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5318.946593750001,"end":5321.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5321.950343750001,"end":5322.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5322.89534375,"end":5326.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5326.675343750001,"end":5331.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5332.159718750001,"end":5335.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5335.349093750001,"end":5339.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5340.25971875,"end":5341.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5342.892218749999,"end":5344.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5344.47846875,"end":5345.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5347.262843750001,"end":5349.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5349.692843750001,"end":5350.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5352.325343750001,"end":5361.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5362.56846875,"end":5364.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5365.09971875,"end":5368.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5369.149718750001,"end":5371.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5371.815968750001,"end":5376.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5376.743468750001,"end":5378.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5379.20721875,"end":5383.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5383.679093750001,"end":5387.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5391.20534375,"end":5391.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5392.251593749999,"end":5394.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5395.120343750001,"end":5397.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5399.575343750001,"end":5400.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5401.499093750001,"end":5402.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5402.78159375,"end":5408.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5408.468468749999,"end":5409.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5410.24034375,"end":5410.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5410.780343750001,"end":5414.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5414.948468750001,"end":5422.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5423.26784375,"end":5425.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5425.343468749999,"end":5430.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5430.28784375,"end":5430.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5431.249718749999,"end":5436.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5438.72534375,"end":5441.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5442.10034375,"end":5444.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5445.05346875,"end":5447.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5448.24284375,"end":5449.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5449.60971875,"end":5454.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5454.975968750001,"end":5456.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5456.96721875,"end":5458.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5459.700968749999,"end":5463.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5463.885968750001,"end":5468.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5469.640343749999,"end":5470.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5471.327843749999,"end":5473.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5471.5809687500005,"end":5471.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5473.825343750001,"end":5478.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5478.39846875,"end":5480.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5481.14909375,"end":5484.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5484.7772187499995,"end":5486.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5487.00471875,"end":5491.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5491.47659375,"end":5492.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5493.788468750001,"end":5494.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5495.72909375,"end":5499.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5500.251593749999,"end":5502.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5502.52971875,"end":5503.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5503.390343749999,"end":5505.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5506.680968750001,"end":5522.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5522.69534375,"end":5524.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5529.15846875,"end":5531.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5535.081593750001,"end":5535.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5536.397843750001,"end":5539.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5541.52784375,"end":5542.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5565.01784375,"end":5565.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5566.89096875,"end":5568.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5575.159718750001,"end":5575.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5577.30284375,"end":5587.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5589.19971875,"end":5600.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5600.40471875,"end":5601.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5601.33284375,"end":5601.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5601.34971875,"end":5601.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5601.366593750001,"end":5608.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5601.38346875,"end":5601.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5601.417218750001,"end":5602.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5608.60596875,"end":5614.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5614.124093750001,"end":5614.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5614.14096875,"end":5614.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5614.47846875,"end":5622.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5622.86534375,"end":5635.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5635.50471875,"end":5638.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5638.3397187499995,"end":5640.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5640.651593750001,"end":5647.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5647.97534375,"end":5659.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5659.669718749999,"end":5665.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5667.80346875,"end":5694.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5694.56721875,"end":5705.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5705.890343749999,"end":5708.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5708.8603437500005,"end":5720.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5721.128468750001,"end":5722.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5723.06909375,"end":5724.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5724.874718749999,"end":5727.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5727.979718750001,"end":5732.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5733.16034375,"end":5738.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5738.50971875,"end":5742.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5742.9647187499995,"end":5756.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5756.41409375,"end":5789.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5789.573468750001,"end":5794.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5794.70346875,"end":5795.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5796.39096875,"end":5802.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5802.85409375,"end":5804.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5804.288468750001,"end":5807.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5807.49471875,"end":5811.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5811.544718749999,"end":5814.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5814.71721875,"end":5821.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5821.349093750001,"end":5821.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5821.36596875,"end":5821.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5821.399718750001,"end":5821.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5821.635968750001,"end":5828.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5821.65284375,"end":5821.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5828.4872187500005,"end":5830.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5831.102843750001,"end":5832.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5832.52034375,"end":5833.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5834.190968750001,"end":5858.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5859.62159375,"end":5874.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5874.99471875,"end":5882.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5878.60596875,"end":5879.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5881.356593750001,"end":5890.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5890.722218750001,"end":5894.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5894.620343750001,"end":5894.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5894.92409375,"end":5902.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5902.720343750001,"end":5907.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5907.29346875,"end":5912.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5913.081593750001,"end":5923.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5923.493468750001,"end":5957.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5957.41221875,"end":5970.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5971.09784375,"end":5976.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5976.734093749999,"end":5979.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5980.22721875,"end":5987.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5987.9559687500005,"end":5988.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5988.040343750001,"end":5988.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5988.52971875,"end":5990.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5990.470343750001,"end":6026.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6005.64096875,"end":6006.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6024.3553437499995,"end":6024.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6026.4647187499995,"end":6051.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6051.456593750001,"end":6065.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6065.749718749999,"end":6088.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6087.265343749999,"end":6098.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6098.82471875,"end":6102.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6103.532843750001,"end":6116.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6116.796593749999,"end":6117.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6117.99471875,"end":6120.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6120.9647187499995,"end":6142.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6141.67034375,"end":6145.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6145.41659375,"end":6150.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6145.450343750001,"end":6145.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6146.429093750001,"end":6146.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6146.78346875,"end":6147.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6147.779093749999,"end":6147.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6148.0322187500005,"end":6148.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6148.09971875,"end":6148.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6149.21346875,"end":6149.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6150.95159375,"end":6171.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6157.026593750001,"end":6157.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6157.04346875,"end":6157.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6157.110968750001,"end":6157.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6157.347218750001,"end":6157.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6157.61721875,"end":6157.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6170.560343749999,"end":6184.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6180.972218750001,"end":6181.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6181.7147187499995,"end":6183.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6184.14471875,"end":6189.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6189.409718750001,"end":6194.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6195.417218750001,"end":6196.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6196.56471875,"end":6206.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6204.86721875,"end":6205.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6205.69409375,"end":6212.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6210.99284375,"end":6211.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6212.30909375,"end":6215.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6214.536593750001,"end":6240.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6238.904093749999,"end":6245.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6240.86159375,"end":6243.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6243.122843749999,"end":6243.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6244.89471875,"end":6245.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6245.35034375,"end":6255.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6256.04909375,"end":6307.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6279.33659375,"end":6279.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6307.5009687500005,"end":6313.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6313.727843750001,"end":6330.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6330.231593750001,"end":6338.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6338.466593749999,"end":6362.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6362.64846875,"end":6367.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6368.63909375,"end":6372.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6372.80721875,"end":6379.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6379.84409375,"end":6385.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6386.12159375,"end":6388.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6389.091593749999,"end":6389.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6390.10409375,"end":6407.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6397.765343749999,"end":6400.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6407.8397187499995,"end":6416.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6414.741593750001,"end":6421.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6418.52159375,"end":6422.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6422.200343750001,"end":6427.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6426.19971875,"end":6432.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6432.29159375,"end":6435.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6435.362843750001,"end":6436.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6436.9490937499995,"end":6439.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6440.27346875,"end":6442.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6443.108468750001,"end":6445.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6445.200968749999,"end":6448.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6447.10784375,"end":6459.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6450.651593750001,"end":6452.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6452.92971875,"end":6454.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6454.3134687500005,"end":6454.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6459.966593749999,"end":6464.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6460.253468750001,"end":6465.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6464.74221875,"end":6478.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6476.099093750001,"end":6476.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6476.11596875,"end":6476.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6478.61346875,"end":6481.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6491.50596875,"end":6495.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6496.38284375,"end":6500.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6510.2372187500005,"end":6511.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6512.41409375,"end":6514.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6514.962218750001,"end":6515.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6516.02534375,"end":6517.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6522.94409375,"end":6523.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6523.80471875,"end":6524.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6525.171593749999,"end":6526.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6526.622843749999,"end":6527.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6528.00659375,"end":6531.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6531.786593750001,"end":6537.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6535.819718750001,"end":6537.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6537.979718750001,"end":6538.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6539.009093750001,"end":6540.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6540.86534375,"end":6541.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6541.60784375,"end":6542.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6542.991593750001,"end":6543.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6544.37534375,"end":6546.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6546.653468750001,"end":6551.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6551.935343749999,"end":6571.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6572.3709687499995,"end":6574.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6574.69971875,"end":6575.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6575.155343750001,"end":6579.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6580.2684687500005,"end":6582.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6582.782843750001,"end":6583.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6583.93034375,"end":6584.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6585.38159375,"end":6596.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6596.60346875,"end":6597.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6598.122218750001,"end":6598.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6599.100968750001,"end":6601.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6601.98659375,"end":6603.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6603.85971875,"end":6613.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6614.91284375,"end":6615.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6616.61721875,"end":6617.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6617.86596875,"end":6619.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6620.12721875,"end":6622.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6622.10159375,"end":6623.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6624.042218750001,"end":6626.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6628.4803437499995,"end":6633.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6633.44159375,"end":6635.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6633.779093749999,"end":6639.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6639.98909375,"end":6642.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6643.56659375,"end":6644.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6644.91659375,"end":6646.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6646.485968750001,"end":6651.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6651.86909375,"end":6653.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6653.55659375,"end":6655.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6656.003468750001,"end":6657.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6657.52221875,"end":6658.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6659.59784375,"end":6660.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6661.0322187500005,"end":6664.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6665.1834687499995,"end":6666.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6666.9384687500005,"end":6668.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6670.1278437500005,"end":6671.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6671.5790937500005,"end":6672.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6672.456593750001,"end":6673.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6673.874093750001,"end":6675.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6675.747218750001,"end":6677.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6677.434718750001,"end":6678.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6679.071593750001,"end":6680.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6681.923468750001,"end":6685.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6685.484093749999,"end":6687.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6687.323468750001,"end":6690.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6690.3778437500005,"end":6690.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6692.048468750001,"end":6693.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6693.887843750001,"end":6694.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6694.917218750001,"end":6696.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6697.212218750001,"end":6697.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6697.262843750001,"end":6697.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6698.612843750001,"end":6701.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6701.329718750001,"end":6720.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6720.48284375,"end":6723.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6724.077218750001,"end":6727.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6727.13159375,"end":6728.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6728.987843750001,"end":6731.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6731.40096875,"end":6732.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6732.936593750001,"end":6734.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6734.74221875,"end":6735.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6736.3622187500005,"end":6736.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6737.560343749999,"end":6738.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6738.555968750001,"end":6739.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6740.41221875,"end":6741.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6741.67784375,"end":6756.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6755.78534375,"end":6766.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6763.37909375,"end":6765.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6766.264718750001,"end":6767.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6766.669718749999,"end":6767.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6768.407843750001,"end":6769.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6769.859093749999,"end":6771.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6771.71534375,"end":6772.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6772.37346875,"end":6779.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6773.08221875,"end":6773.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6773.95971875,"end":6774.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6776.001593750001,"end":6776.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6778.920968750001,"end":6778.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6779.35971875,"end":6779.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6779.5790937500005,"end":6782.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6783.10596875,"end":6783.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6783.544718749999,"end":6785.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6785.02971875,"end":6785.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6785.11409375,"end":6785.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6785.16471875,"end":6785.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6786.05909375,"end":6786.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6787.42596875,"end":6788.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6789.602843750001,"end":6791.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6791.3915937500005,"end":6792.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6792.67409375,"end":6794.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6794.6990937499995,"end":6795.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6795.49221875,"end":6796.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6797.68596875,"end":6798.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6799.27221875,"end":6800.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6800.68971875,"end":6802.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6803.102843750001,"end":6804.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6806.140343749999,"end":6807.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6807.591593749999,"end":6810.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6811.42221875,"end":6815.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6816.265343749999,"end":6817.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6818.003468750001,"end":6819.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6819.4715937500005,"end":6821.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6821.36159375,"end":6823.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6824.196593750001,"end":6827.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6827.95971875,"end":6829.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6829.967843750001,"end":6833.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6834.608468750001,"end":6835.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6836.295968750001,"end":6837.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6838.4559687500005,"end":6842.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6844.41284375,"end":6845.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6844.7840937500005,"end":6845.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6845.948468750001,"end":6846.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6846.15096875,"end":6848.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6847.635968750001,"end":6848.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6848.44596875,"end":6848.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6848.49659375,"end":6850.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6850.960343750001,"end":6851.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6852.0740937499995,"end":6853.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6853.727843750001,"end":6855.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6855.53346875,"end":6856.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6857.845343750001,"end":6860.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6860.8153437500005,"end":6862.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6863.65034375,"end":6864.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6864.91596875,"end":6871.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6871.56471875,"end":6872.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6873.218468749999,"end":6874.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6874.36596875,"end":6875.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6876.10409375,"end":6878.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6879.0740937499995,"end":6879.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6880.55909375,"end":6882.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6882.66846875,"end":6884.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6885.19971875,"end":6885.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6885.90846875,"end":6887.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6888.10221875,"end":6889.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6890.009093750001,"end":6891.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6892.84409375,"end":6896.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6893.940968750001,"end":6894.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6894.2615937499995,"end":6895.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6895.29096875,"end":6895.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6896.74221875,"end":6898.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6898.93596875,"end":6899.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6900.85971875,"end":6901.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6902.41221875,"end":6902.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6902.49659375,"end":6904.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6904.437218749999,"end":6905.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6905.804093750001,"end":6905.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6905.939093750001,"end":6906.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6906.732218749999,"end":6906.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6908.234093749999,"end":6911.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6911.895968750001,"end":6920.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6915.33846875,"end":6915.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6915.3553437499995,"end":6915.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6915.372218750001,"end":6915.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6915.47346875,"end":6915.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6915.91221875,"end":6916.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6916.030343750001,"end":6916.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6916.28346875,"end":6916.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6916.350968750001,"end":6920.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6920.92409375,"end":6922.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6921.734093750001,"end":6935.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6933.934718750001,"end":6935.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6936.43221875,"end":6951.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6951.839093750001,"end":6954.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6954.134093750001,"end":6956.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6955.686593750001,"end":6956.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6956.96909375,"end":6959.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6959.41596875,"end":6963.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6962.858468750001,"end":6964.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6965.052218750001,"end":6965.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6965.96346875,"end":6966.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6967.17846875,"end":6967.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6967.532843750001,"end":6969.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6969.456593750001,"end":6970.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6970.401593750001,"end":6975.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6975.092843750001,"end":6976.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6976.47659375,"end":6979.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6977.657843750001,"end":6977.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6977.72534375,"end":6977.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6977.74221875,"end":6977.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6977.894093750001,"end":6977.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6977.97846875,"end":6978.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6979.66596875,"end":6980.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6980.762843750001,"end":6980.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6981.33659375,"end":6981.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6981.85971875,"end":6982.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6983.429093750001,"end":6984.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6985.251593750001,"end":6986.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6986.517218750001,"end":6987.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6987.833468750001,"end":6989.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6989.40284375,"end":6990.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6990.82034375,"end":6992.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6992.575343750001,"end":6992.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6993.25034375,"end":6995.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6996.38909375,"end":7003.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7003.51034375,"end":7004.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7003.64534375,"end":7005.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7004.48909375,"end":7008.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7007.847218750001,"end":7009.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7009.5009687500005,"end":7012.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7012.33596875,"end":7013.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7013.061593750001,"end":7014.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7014.546593750001,"end":7014.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7016.72346875,"end":7017.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7018.3603437500005,"end":7018.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7019.69346875,"end":7021.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7022.07284375,"end":7023.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7023.96284375,"end":7027.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7028.40096875,"end":7030.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7031.13471875,"end":7032.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7031.26971875,"end":7031.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7032.467843750001,"end":7034.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7034.22284375,"end":7034.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7034.27346875,"end":7034.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7034.30721875,"end":7036.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7037.04096875,"end":7039.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7040.989718750001,"end":7043.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7044.077843750001,"end":7046.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7047.72284375,"end":7050.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7050.89534375,"end":7053.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7053.645968750001,"end":7054.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7054.27034375,"end":7055.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7055.45159375,"end":7056.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7056.514718750001,"end":7058.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7058.91096875,"end":7060.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7061.897843750001,"end":7063.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7064.39534375,"end":7067.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7067.7197187500005,"end":7071.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7067.804093750001,"end":7067.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7067.9559687500005,"end":7067.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7067.97284375,"end":7068.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7071.85409375,"end":7072.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7073.49096875,"end":7076.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7077.034718750001,"end":7078.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7079.3465937500005,"end":7081.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7082.11409375,"end":7082.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7082.26596875,"end":7083.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7083.075968749999,"end":7085.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7085.59034375,"end":7086.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7087.024718750001,"end":7087.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7087.9697187500005,"end":7090.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7090.585343750001,"end":7092.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7093.859093750001,"end":7094.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7094.60159375,"end":7095.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7095.968468750001,"end":7097.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7097.436593750001,"end":7099.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7100.11971875,"end":7103.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7104.405968750001,"end":7106.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7106.430968750001,"end":7111.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7112.82659375,"end":7115.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7116.606593750001,"end":7117.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7118.294093750001,"end":7119.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7120.31909375,"end":7122.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7122.95159375,"end":7128.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7128.25034375,"end":7137.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7137.80159375,"end":7138.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7139.45534375,"end":7141.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7142.003468750001,"end":7143.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7143.927218750001,"end":7143.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7144.12971875,"end":7144.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7144.264718750001,"end":7144.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7144.56846875,"end":7146.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7146.593468750001,"end":7149.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7148.669093750001,"end":7150.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7150.4072187500005,"end":7150.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7150.55909375,"end":7151.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7151.97659375,"end":7163.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7162.23659375,"end":7163.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7163.97471875,"end":7165.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7165.628468750001,"end":7169.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7169.982218749999,"end":7172.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7172.935343749999,"end":7175.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7176.00659375,"end":7176.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7176.175343750001,"end":7176.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7176.225968750001,"end":7176.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7176.968468750001,"end":7179.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7179.0272187499995,"end":7185.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7179.11159375,"end":7180.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7180.022843750001,"end":7180.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7180.84971875,"end":7180.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7181.423468750001,"end":7181.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7185.15284375,"end":7185.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7186.1990937499995,"end":7187.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7188.7303437499995,"end":7190.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7191.6834687499995,"end":7196.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7196.948468750001,"end":7198.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7197.505343750001,"end":7198.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7199.243468750001,"end":7201.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7199.665343750001,"end":7201.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7201.31909375,"end":7201.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7201.60596875,"end":7201.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7202.145968750001,"end":7203.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7202.21346875,"end":7203.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7204.019093750001,"end":7214.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7212.10221875,"end":7212.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7214.02596875,"end":7217.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7214.700968749999,"end":7214.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7214.717843750001,"end":7217.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7217.50221875,"end":7220.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7217.805968750001,"end":7219.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7220.708468750001,"end":7224.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7220.92784375,"end":7221.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7224.91034375,"end":7227.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7225.669718749999,"end":7227.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7227.357218749999,"end":7235.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7228.487843750001,"end":7229.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7235.946593750001,"end":7250.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7245.10971875,"end":7245.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7250.50971875,"end":7251.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7252.33221875,"end":7254.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7254.829718750001,"end":7257.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7258.10346875,"end":7259.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7259.841593749999,"end":7260.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7260.90471875,"end":7262.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7262.69346875,"end":7263.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7263.317843750001,"end":7263.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7265.005343750001,"end":7269.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7269.6122187500005,"end":7269.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7269.62909375,"end":7270.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7270.08471875,"end":7270.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7270.60784375,"end":7270.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7270.6415937500005,"end":7272.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7270.725968750001,"end":7277.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7272.85221875,"end":7275.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7275.265343750001,"end":7275.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7276.51409375,"end":7276.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7278.0497187500005,"end":7278.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7279.09596875,"end":7280.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7280.81721875,"end":7282.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7285.120343750001,"end":7286.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7287.48284375,"end":7288.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7291.27971875,"end":7292.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7293.507218750001,"end":7295.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7293.62534375,"end":7294.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7296.47721875,"end":7297.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7298.21534375,"end":7300.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7301.35409375,"end":7302.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7302.687218750001,"end":7304.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7305.70784375,"end":7310.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7311.86721875,"end":7314.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7315.073468750001,"end":7315.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7317.638468749999,"end":7319.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7319.86596875,"end":7320.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7320.62534375,"end":7322.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7323.561593750001,"end":7324.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7324.69221875,"end":7325.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7326.21096875,"end":7328.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7328.82659375,"end":7329.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7330.46346875,"end":7332.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7332.70784375,"end":7337.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7338.15846875,"end":7340.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7340.858468750001,"end":7341.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7342.073468750001,"end":7342.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7343.5584687499995,"end":7344.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7345.347218750001,"end":7346.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7346.477843750001,"end":7351.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7349.83596875,"end":7352.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7353.24471875,"end":7353.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7353.9872187500005,"end":7357.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7357.61534375,"end":7360.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7361.36159375,"end":7362.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7363.2684687500005,"end":7364.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7365.327218750001,"end":7367.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7368.0272187499995,"end":7371.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7372.9715937500005,"end":7375.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7376.02596875,"end":7376.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7377.44346875,"end":7381.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7382.16846875,"end":7382.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7383.77159375,"end":7388.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7389.71159375,"end":7392.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7392.968468750001,"end":7394.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7394.942843750001,"end":7395.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7396.107218749999,"end":7397.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7397.5584687499995,"end":7398.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7398.840968750001,"end":7400.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7400.46096875,"end":7401.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7401.86159375,"end":7402.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7403.430968750001,"end":7404.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7404.15659375,"end":7405.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7406.55284375,"end":7407.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7407.43034375,"end":7408.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7409.08409375,"end":7410.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7411.024718750001,"end":7412.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7412.91471875,"end":7417.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7418.247218750001,"end":7420.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7420.964093750001,"end":7421.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7421.97659375,"end":7422.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7422.7528437500005,"end":7423.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7423.967843750001,"end":7425.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7425.975968750001,"end":7427.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7441.97346875,"end":7446.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7447.120343750001,"end":7450.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7451.49096875,"end":7455.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7776.7059687500005,"end":7776.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7776.975968750001,"end":7777.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7778.342843750001,"end":7779.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7780.28346875,"end":7786.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7791.0497187500005,"end":7792.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7792.75409375,"end":7794.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7794.47534375,"end":7796.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7800.4490937499995,"end":7801.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7801.579718750001,"end":7801.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7802.06909375,"end":7803.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7804.46534375,"end":7815.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7812.2615937499995,"end":7812.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7816.00784375,"end":7824.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7824.782843750001,"end":7826.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7827.229718750001,"end":7830.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7830.77346875,"end":7834.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7834.97534375,"end":7838.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7839.042218750001,"end":7840.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7840.915343750001,"end":7851.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7851.833468750001,"end":7855.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7856.08596875,"end":7873.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7873.534718750001,"end":7876.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7876.909718750001,"end":7883.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7883.895968750001,"end":7886.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7886.68034375,"end":7900.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7900.635968750001,"end":7907.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7907.470343750001,"end":7909.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7910.102843750001,"end":7919.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7919.670968750001,"end":7923.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7924.0584687499995,"end":7934.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7935.3309687500005,"end":7936.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7936.46159375,"end":7938.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7939.161593750001,"end":7940.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7940.190968750001,"end":7951.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7952.290343750001,"end":7953.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7954.19721875,"end":7956.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7957.09971875,"end":7975.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7965.99284375,"end":7966.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7966.026593750001,"end":7966.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7975.69596875,"end":7975.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7975.8309687500005,"end":7982.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7982.63159375,"end":7992.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7992.975968750001,"end":7995.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7995.929093750001,"end":7998.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7999.05096875,"end":8002.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8002.37534375,"end":8003.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8003.64096875,"end":8006.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8006.59409375,"end":8010.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8010.67784375,"end":8015.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8015.6728437500005,"end":8021.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8021.899718750001,"end":8024.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8024.49846875,"end":8026.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8026.52346875,"end":8028.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8029.341593750001,"end":8036.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8037.34034375,"end":8037.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8037.694718750001,"end":8038.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8039.2978437500005,"end":8040.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8040.360968750001,"end":8041.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8041.50846875,"end":8042.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8042.993468750001,"end":8043.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8043.685343750001,"end":8045.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8045.27159375,"end":8046.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8046.80721875,"end":8047.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8047.684718750001,"end":8048.325968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8048.69721875,"end":8050.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8050.6209687499995,"end":8053.810343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8053.89471875,"end":8060.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8060.64471875,"end":8075.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8076.30471875,"end":8081.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8081.58659375,"end":8084.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8085.180968750001,"end":8088.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8088.319718750001,"end":8088.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8088.454718750001,"end":8088.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8088.57284375,"end":8090.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8090.901593750001,"end":8092.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8093.16284375,"end":8096.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8096.993468750001,"end":8101.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8101.482218750001,"end":8104.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8105.02596875,"end":8112.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8112.467843750001,"end":8116.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8116.9228437500005,"end":8120.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8120.095343750001,"end":8123.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8123.68971875,"end":8124.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8124.76971875,"end":8132.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8130.30471875,"end":8131.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8132.565968750001,"end":8133.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8132.63346875,"end":8142.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8134.28721875,"end":8135.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8142.38721875,"end":8145.779093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8146.15034375,"end":8150.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8148.90096875,"end":8149.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8150.099093750001,"end":8150.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8150.31846875,"end":8155.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8150.35221875,"end":8150.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8156.02221875,"end":8159.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8160.122843750001,"end":8162.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8162.50221875,"end":8165.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8165.06721875,"end":8166.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8165.809718750001,"end":8166.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8166.6365937499995,"end":8166.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8166.75471875,"end":8166.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8166.839093750001,"end":8171.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8169.43784375,"end":8223.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8178.314093750001,"end":8178.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8178.465968750001,"end":8178.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8179.680968750001,"end":8180.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8180.2040937500005,"end":8180.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8185.78971875,"end":8185.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8185.84034375,"end":8185.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8224.230968750002,"end":8226.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8225.277218750001,"end":8236.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8234.558468750001,"end":8234.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8237.055968749999,"end":8253.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8241.359093750001,"end":8241.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8241.96659375,"end":8242.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8242.28721875,"end":8242.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8253.72846875,"end":8262.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8253.863468750002,"end":8253.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8262.65534375,"end":8265.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8265.726593750001,"end":8273.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8273.370968750001,"end":8274.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8274.687218750001,"end":8274.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8274.97409375,"end":8284.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8284.609718750002,"end":8290.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8290.92096875,"end":8292.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8292.152843750002,"end":8332.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8299.746593750002,"end":8299.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8299.76346875,"end":8299.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8299.78034375,"end":8299.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8299.949093750001,"end":8299.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8299.965968750003,"end":8300.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8301.383468750002,"end":8301.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8301.78846875,"end":8301.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8301.906593750002,"end":8301.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8301.957218750002,"end":8302.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8316.520343750002,"end":8316.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8316.58784375,"end":8316.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8316.60471875,"end":8317.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8333.378468750001,"end":8343.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8343.85784375,"end":8344.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8344.58346875,"end":8345.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8345.32596875,"end":8352.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8352.784718750001,"end":8355.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8356.227218750002,"end":8360.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8361.070343750001,"end":8364.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8365.019093750001,"end":8367.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8368.15784375,"end":8382.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8383.19346875,"end":8397.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8398.17846875,"end":8407.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8405.046593750001,"end":8408.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8407.30784375,"end":8407.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8407.476593750001,"end":8407.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8408.94471875,"end":8414.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8413.83846875,"end":8423.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8423.44034375,"end":8423.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8424.26721875,"end":8428.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8427.08534375,"end":8427.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8428.65471875,"end":8433.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8431.962218750003,"end":8437.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8435.72534375,"end":8435.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8435.809718750003,"end":8435.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8435.97846875,"end":8440.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8440.754093750002,"end":8440.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8440.804718750001,"end":8444.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8445.05721875,"end":8445.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8446.356593750003,"end":8446.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8446.390343750001,"end":8446.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8446.457843750002,"end":8446.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8446.49159375,"end":8446.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8446.59284375,"end":8449.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8446.710968750001,"end":8447.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8448.297218750002,"end":8448.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8448.33096875,"end":8465.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8465.543468750002,"end":8476.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8476.22534375,"end":8479.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8480.32596875,"end":8482.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8482.03034375,"end":8482.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8483.312843750002,"end":8486.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8485.43909375,"end":8490.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8486.18159375,"end":8486.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8491.21034375,"end":8500.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8496.69471875,"end":8496.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8496.711593750002,"end":8496.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8496.762218750002,"end":8496.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8500.862843750001,"end":8509.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8501.11596875,"end":8501.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8501.605343750001,"end":8501.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8503.883468750002,"end":8503.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8503.91721875,"end":8504.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8509.06409375,"end":8509.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8509.671593750001,"end":8524.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8524.42034375,"end":8524.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8524.67346875,"end":8536.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8536.75596875,"end":8539.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8540.012843750003,"end":8553.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8553.495968750001,"end":8553.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8554.339718750001,"end":8560.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8560.90409375,"end":8567.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8567.856593750003,"end":8568.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8568.852218750002,"end":8570.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8571.09659375,"end":8576.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8576.547218750002,"end":8580.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8581.00221875,"end":8585.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8586.16596875,"end":8590.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8590.367843750002,"end":8592.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8592.49409375,"end":8592.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8592.696593750003,"end":8594.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8594.92409375,"end":8595.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8596.34159375,"end":8596.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8596.78034375,"end":8596.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8596.965968750003,"end":8610.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8610.044093750003,"end":8611.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8611.562843750002,"end":8627.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8615.477843750003,"end":8615.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8615.511593750001,"end":8615.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8615.730968750002,"end":8615.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8616.27096875,"end":8616.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8616.304718750001,"end":8616.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8616.96284375,"end":8617.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8620.320968750002,"end":8620.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8620.75971875,"end":8620.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8621.046593750001,"end":8621.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8621.19846875,"end":8621.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8621.23221875,"end":8621.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8624.20221875,"end":8625.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8627.020343750002,"end":8630.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8629.61909375,"end":8630.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8630.715968750003,"end":8632.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8632.99409375,"end":8633.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8633.027843750002,"end":8638.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8633.196593750003,"end":8633.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8633.41596875,"end":8634.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8634.79971875,"end":8635.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8635.035968750002,"end":8637.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8638.984718750002,"end":8639.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8639.22096875,"end":8639.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8639.69346875,"end":8642.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8642.74784375,"end":8643.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8644.01346875,"end":8646.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8646.54471875,"end":8649.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8650.324718750002,"end":8657.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8658.05346875,"end":8668.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8669.258468750002,"end":8673.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8673.88221875,"end":8676.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8676.81846875,"end":8682.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8682.859718750002,"end":8686.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8687.38221875,"end":8687.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8688.715343750002,"end":8689.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8690.41971875,"end":8691.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8692.410968750002,"end":8695.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8695.667843750001,"end":8696.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8696.680343750002,"end":8698.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8699.19471875,"end":8700.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8700.03846875,"end":8708.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8702.535968750002,"end":8702.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8702.586593750002,"end":8702.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8702.77221875,"end":8702.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8706.83909375,"end":8706.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8706.97409375,"end":8707.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8720.153468750003,"end":8722.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8723.71409375,"end":8726.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8728.65846875,"end":8730.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8730.44721875,"end":8731.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8731.93221875,"end":8733.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8748.58784375,"end":8756.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8749.80284375,"end":8749.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8755.03409375,"end":8757.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8761.09221875,"end":8761.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8763.20159375,"end":8766.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8764.88909375,"end":8765.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8766.087218750003,"end":8766.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8766.10409375,"end":8766.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8766.492218750001,"end":8767.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8767.89284375,"end":8776.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8770.05284375,"end":8771.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8772.398468750001,"end":8773.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8773.47846875,"end":8775.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8777.22471875,"end":8780.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8780.70096875,"end":8784.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8784.71721875,"end":8785.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8786.15159375,"end":8791.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8792.445968750002,"end":8795.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8796.15846875,"end":8798.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8798.48721875,"end":8801.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8802.48659375,"end":8805.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8805.96284375,"end":8806.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8806.03034375,"end":8817.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8817.690968750001,"end":8820.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8821.31909375,"end":8826.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8827.259093750003,"end":8829.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8829.874718750001,"end":8841.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8842.497218750003,"end":8854.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8854.32659375,"end":8855.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8855.507843750001,"end":8858.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8859.405968750001,"end":8864.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8864.50221875,"end":8871.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8871.92721875,"end":8883.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8884.53284375,"end":8885.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8885.96721875,"end":8887.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8888.38034375,"end":8888.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8889.105968750002,"end":8891.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8892.07596875,"end":8892.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8893.08846875,"end":8893.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8894.55659375,"end":8895.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8895.94034375,"end":8899.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8899.973468750002,"end":8903.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8903.770343750002,"end":8906.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8907.22971875,"end":8907.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8908.84971875,"end":8910.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8910.840968750003,"end":8910.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8910.891593750002,"end":8910.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8910.97596875,"end":8912.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8912.79846875,"end":8934.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8932.305968750003,"end":8934.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8934.68534375,"end":8934.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8934.73596875,"end":8934.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8934.75284375,"end":8934.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8934.80346875,"end":8936.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8935.12409375,"end":8936.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8936.777843750002,"end":8936.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8936.79471875,"end":8940.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8936.828468750002,"end":8936.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8937.149093750002,"end":8937.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8937.55409375,"end":8937.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8937.722843750002,"end":8938.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8940.54096875,"end":8940.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8940.827843750001,"end":8950.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8943.629093750002,"end":8944.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8950.61534375,"end":8951.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8951.67846875,"end":8956.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8956.42034375,"end":8962.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8963.00159375,"end":8965.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8965.735343750002,"end":8976.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8977.04159375,"end":8978.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8977.699718750002,"end":8985.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8978.374718750001,"end":8979.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8984.618468750003,"end":8986.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8986.49159375,"end":8986.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8986.812218750001,"end":8989.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8989.562843750002,"end":9000.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9000.227843750003,"end":9003.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9004.24409375,"end":9005.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9006.31971875,"end":9010.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9011.078468750002,"end":9011.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9011.68596875,"end":9014.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9014.605343750001,"end":9020.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9020.832218750002,"end":9035.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9031.56471875,"end":9031.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9034.09596875,"end":9035.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9036.20534375,"end":9051.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9051.76409375,"end":9058.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9058.41284375,"end":9060.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9060.437843750002,"end":9067.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9068.993468750003,"end":9073.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9073.02659375,"end":9074.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9074.089718750001,"end":9074.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9074.12346875,"end":9099.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9074.64659375,"end":9075.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9091.909718750001,"end":9091.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9091.926593750002,"end":9093.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9097.90034375,"end":9159.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9104.144093750001,"end":9104.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9159.831593750001,"end":9169.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9170.378468750001,"end":9198.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9199.16721875,"end":9214.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9214.82721875,"end":9235.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9235.97159375,"end":9237.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9237.574718750002,"end":9239.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9239.12721875,"end":9240.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9240.34221875,"end":9240.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9241.72596875,"end":9243.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9243.61596875,"end":9245.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9245.843468750001,"end":9247.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9247.379093750002,"end":9248.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9249.269093750001,"end":9251.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9251.83409375,"end":9253.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9253.352843750003,"end":9255.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9255.69846875,"end":9258.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9258.465968750003,"end":9260.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9260.575343750003,"end":9263.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9264.13596875,"end":9265.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9266.92034375,"end":9267.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9267.679718750001,"end":9275.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9267.831593750001,"end":9269.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9269.97471875,"end":9270.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9270.210968750001,"end":9270.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9275.72909375,"end":9279.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9278.73284375,"end":9324.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9306.762218750002,"end":9306.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9306.812843750002,"end":9307.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9310.20471875,"end":9310.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9325.02096875,"end":9331.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9331.72034375,"end":9379.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9352.122218750003,"end":9352.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9380.55659375,"end":9386.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9388.015343750001,"end":9390.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9391.25534375,"end":9395.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9395.946593750003,"end":9406.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9406.98284375,"end":9408.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9408.55221875,"end":9410.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9410.003468750001,"end":9411.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9410.03721875,"end":9410.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9411.589718750001,"end":9411.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9411.606593750003,"end":9451.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9422.457218750002,"end":9423.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9451.85346875,"end":9461.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9451.90409375,"end":9452.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9461.94471875,"end":9467.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9468.171593750001,"end":9471.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9471.58034375,"end":9475.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9476.32221875,"end":9476.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9476.86221875,"end":9478.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9478.85346875,"end":9481.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9481.38471875,"end":9484.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9484.97909375,"end":9489.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9490.075343750003,"end":9496.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9496.875968750002,"end":9518.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9496.909718750001,"end":9496.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9497.078468750002,"end":9497.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9519.488468750002,"end":9525.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9525.867218750001,"end":9529.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9527.706593750001,"end":9541.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9541.61159375,"end":9546.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9548.41221875,"end":9570.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9571.024718750003,"end":9599.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9599.67846875,"end":9602.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9603.137843750003,"end":9603.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9603.89721875,"end":9611.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9611.32221875,"end":9611.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9611.44034375,"end":9612.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9612.030968750001,"end":9621.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9621.750968750002,"end":9624.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9621.784718750001,"end":9622.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9623.219093750002,"end":9623.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9624.09659375,"end":9670.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9624.906593750002,"end":9625.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9687.968468750001,"end":9688.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9688.96409375,"end":9689.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9690.01034375,"end":9690.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9695.69721875,"end":9697.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9698.76846875,"end":9702.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9704.45534375,"end":9706.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9707.020343750002,"end":9708.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9731.809718750003,"end":9732.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9732.062843750002,"end":9734.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9735.37034375,"end":9736.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9736.56846875,"end":9737.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9738.593468750001,"end":9739.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9739.99409375,"end":9741.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9740.820968750002,"end":9742.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9745.42784375,"end":9746.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9746.187218750001,"end":9746.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9747.97596875,"end":9748.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9749.629718750002,"end":9750.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9751.249718750001,"end":9751.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9752.211593750002,"end":9752.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9755.012843750003,"end":9755.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9756.852218750002,"end":9759.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9760.328468750002,"end":9761.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9762.25221875,"end":9765.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9766.31909375,"end":9767.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9767.31471875,"end":9768.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9770.11596875,"end":9774.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9774.891593750002,"end":9776.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9776.950343750003,"end":9778.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9779.65034375,"end":9781.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9782.367218750001,"end":9784.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9784.98284375,"end":9787.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9788.13846875,"end":9789.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9789.77534375,"end":9791.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9792.30659375,"end":9795.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9795.47909375,"end":9806.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9807.07221875,"end":9812.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9812.77596875,"end":9813.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9813.82221875,"end":9818.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9819.390968750002,"end":9820.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9821.618468750003,"end":9829.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9830.32596875,"end":9841.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9841.83471875,"end":9843.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9843.960968750001,"end":9846.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9847.26846875,"end":9847.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9848.46659375,"end":9850.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9851.68971875,"end":9851.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9851.875343750002,"end":9851.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9852.094718750002,"end":9860.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9860.92034375,"end":9864.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9864.700343750003,"end":9865.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9866.421593750001,"end":9867.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9867.484718750002,"end":9883.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9867.653468750003,"end":9867.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9867.737843750001,"end":9867.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9867.97409375,"end":9868.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9883.81971875,"end":9885.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9885.574718750002,"end":9889.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9889.472843750002,"end":9889.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9890.468468750001,"end":9891.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9892.30784375,"end":9894.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9895.24409375,"end":9898.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9899.024093750002,"end":9910.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9910.937843750002,"end":9912.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9913.266593750002,"end":9915.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9916.169093750003,"end":9916.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9917.789093750001,"end":9920.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9920.82659375,"end":9925.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9925.78784375,"end":9927.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9928.26846875,"end":9930.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9931.12034375,"end":9935.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9936.06471875,"end":9938.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9938.71409375,"end":9940.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9941.38034375,"end":9942.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9943.33784375,"end":9944.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9944.65409375,"end":9951.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9952.04534375,"end":9957.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9957.917843750001,"end":9958.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9959.183468750001,"end":9960.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9961.02284375,"end":9961.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9961.79909375,"end":9962.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9963.63846875,"end":9964.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9966.28784375,"end":9967.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9968.12721875,"end":9971.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9971.97471875,"end":9974.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9974.337218750003,"end":9982.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9983.331593750001,"end":9985.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9986.132843750001,"end":9993.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9993.49034375,"end":9997.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9997.92846875,"end":10004.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10004.88096875,"end":10008.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10008.45846875,"end":10009.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10010.297843750002,"end":10014.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10014.78659375,"end":10021.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10020.69284375,"end":10022.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10022.430968750003,"end":10022.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10022.49846875,"end":10028.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10022.515343750001,"end":10024.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10029.113468750002,"end":10046.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10044.047843750002,"end":10044.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10045.347218750001,"end":10049.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10046.66346875,"end":10048.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10049.02596875,"end":10049.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10049.19471875,"end":10061.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10054.965968750003,"end":10055.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10058.492843750002,"end":10059.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10061.969093750002,"end":10069.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10069.394093750001,"end":10074.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10074.96284375,"end":10096.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10096.984718750002,"end":10105.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10104.105968750002,"end":10106.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10106.535968750002,"end":10112.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10107.531593750002,"end":10108.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10110.535343750002,"end":10111.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10111.024718750003,"end":10111.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10112.94846875,"end":10113.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10113.31971875,"end":10116.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10113.99471875,"end":10114.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10116.79596875,"end":10134.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10129.688468750002,"end":10131.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10131.86534375,"end":10131.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10134.19409375,"end":10142.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10143.40784375,"end":10144.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10144.065968750001,"end":10148.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10153.27971875,"end":10154.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10154.781593750002,"end":10155.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10155.321593750003,"end":10155.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10156.215968750003,"end":10157.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10158.156593750002,"end":10160.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10163.894093750001,"end":10164.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10169.074718750002,"end":10170.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10172.14596875,"end":10173.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10174.12034375,"end":10174.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10174.660343750002,"end":10175.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10176.33096875,"end":10176.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10177.27596875,"end":10181.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10181.29221875,"end":10181.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10182.254093750002,"end":10183.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10184.160968750002,"end":10184.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10184.211593750002,"end":10184.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10184.312843750002,"end":10186.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10187.316593750002,"end":10192.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10192.952843750001,"end":10196.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10196.378468750001,"end":10198.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10199.41596875,"end":10200.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10200.546593750001,"end":10202.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10203.33096875,"end":10205.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10205.38971875,"end":10211.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10212.257843750001,"end":10217.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10217.67471875,"end":10217.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10217.92784375,"end":10221.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10222.281593750002,"end":10230.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10230.58409375,"end":10244.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10244.640968750002,"end":10253.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10254.37784375,"end":10257.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10258.242218750001,"end":10264.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10265.059718750003,"end":10271.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10271.759093750003,"end":10272.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10272.46784375,"end":10273.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10273.31159375,"end":10275.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10276.31534375,"end":10279.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10279.504718750002,"end":10279.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10279.977218750002,"end":10280.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10280.230343750001,"end":10303.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10304.125343750002,"end":10305.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10305.441593750002,"end":10306.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10306.403468750003,"end":10338.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10338.297218750002,"end":10361.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10361.53409375,"end":10374.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10374.899093750002,"end":10376.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10377.430343750002,"end":10383.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10383.15096875,"end":10383.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10384.31534375,"end":10402.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10401.91596875,"end":10401.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10402.08471875,"end":10411.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10412.10846875,"end":10426.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10425.422843750002,"end":10444.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10426.90784375,"end":10427.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10430.45159375,"end":10430.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10430.97471875,"end":10432.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10436.813468750002,"end":10437.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10437.47159375,"end":10437.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10437.488468750002,"end":10437.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10444.559093750002,"end":10444.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10444.812218750001,"end":10467.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10465.703468750002,"end":10466.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10467.47534375,"end":10484.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10483.624718750001,"end":10500.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10499.38596875,"end":10500.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10500.347843750002,"end":10510.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10510.60784375,"end":10552.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10552.035968750002,"end":10552.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10552.05284375,"end":10552.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10552.32284375,"end":10552.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10552.42409375,"end":10573.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10552.440968750001,"end":10552.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10562.954093750002,"end":10563.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10564.38846875,"end":10566.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10566.61596875,"end":10566.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10573.56846875,"end":10576.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10576.555343750002,"end":10579.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10579.829093750002,"end":10587.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10579.862843750001,"end":10580.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10580.21721875,"end":10580.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10588.165343750003,"end":10592.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10593.24471875,"end":10625.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10626.015968750002,"end":10627.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10627.93971875,"end":10629.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10629.644093750001,"end":10631.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10631.820968750002,"end":10633.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10633.54221875,"end":10642.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10643.464718750001,"end":10646.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10647.09284375,"end":10652.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10651.868468750003,"end":10667.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10665.18284375,"end":10668.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10670.81909375,"end":10671.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10671.848468750002,"end":10674.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10675.67909375,"end":10676.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10677.40034375,"end":10679.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10680.20159375,"end":10683.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10683.458468750003,"end":10684.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10684.825343750003,"end":10686.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10686.884093750003,"end":10688.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10688.95971875,"end":10691.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10691.44034375,"end":10695.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10695.574718750002,"end":10696.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10695.996593750002,"end":10699.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10699.624718750001,"end":10702.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10703.13471875,"end":10703.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10704.383468750002,"end":10707.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10708.011593750001,"end":10709.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10709.445968750002,"end":10710.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10710.32346875,"end":10711.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10712.989718750003,"end":10714.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10714.879718750002,"end":10715.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10715.082218750002,"end":10715.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10734.488468750002,"end":10738.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10738.63971875,"end":10739.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10740.00659375,"end":10742.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10743.786593750003,"end":10746.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10756.61159375,"end":10759.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10759.26096875,"end":10761.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10766.06159375,"end":10767.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10768.035968750002,"end":10773.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10773.503468750001,"end":10776.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10776.92909375,"end":10778.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10778.12721875,"end":10778.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10779.81471875,"end":10782.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10783.425968750002,"end":10784.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10783.78034375,"end":10785.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10785.585968750001,"end":10796.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10796.53784375,"end":10805.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10805.835968750001,"end":10835.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10809.83534375,"end":10809.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10809.852218750002,"end":10809.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10809.88596875,"end":10809.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10809.97034375,"end":10810.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10810.223468750002,"end":10810.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10836.07596875,"end":10842.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10842.72471875,"end":10844.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10844.04096875,"end":10855.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10855.988468750002,"end":10857.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10857.76034375,"end":10863.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10863.86909375,"end":10868.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10868.88096875,"end":10877.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10874.26409375,"end":10876.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10876.59284375,"end":10876.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10878.16221875,"end":10894.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10895.67846875,"end":10907.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10907.84534375,"end":10908.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10908.97596875,"end":10916.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10917.12659375,"end":10921.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10922.15534375,"end":10927.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10928.669093750003,"end":10929.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10929.394718750002,"end":10938.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10929.765968750002,"end":10930.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10930.812218750001,"end":10931.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10936.465343750002,"end":10940.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10939.671593750001,"end":10941.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10940.835968750001,"end":10957.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10941.696593750003,"end":10941.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10957.57596875,"end":10958.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10958.993468750003,"end":10962.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10962.672218750002,"end":10963.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10964.511593750001,"end":10964.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10965.827843750001,"end":10967.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10967.49846875,"end":10967.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10967.987843750001,"end":10969.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10970.012843750003,"end":10971.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10971.902843750002,"end":10974.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10974.737843750001,"end":10974.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10974.754718750002,"end":10975.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10975.075343750003,"end":10980.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10975.125968750002,"end":10975.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10975.21034375,"end":10975.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10980.930968750003,"end":10982.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10983.31034375,"end":10991.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10992.203468750002,"end":11005.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11006.36159375,"end":11013.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11014.562843750002,"end":11018.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11019.405968750001,"end":11022.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11023.489718750003,"end":11025.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11026.172843750002,"end":11042.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11040.95534375,"end":11043.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11043.824093750001,"end":11045.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11046.675968750002,"end":11047.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11047.82346875,"end":11051.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11052.261593750001,"end":11057.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11055.99096875,"end":11061.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11061.390968750002,"end":11067.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11063.26409375,"end":11063.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11067.972218750001,"end":11070.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11068.360343750002,"end":11069.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11069.204093750002,"end":11073.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11073.304718750001,"end":11073.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11074.08096875,"end":11079.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11079.88596875,"end":11081.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11081.40471875,"end":11082.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11081.691593750002,"end":11085.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11085.52221875,"end":11085.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11085.606593750003,"end":11088.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11088.660968750002,"end":11100.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11090.922218750002,"end":11090.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11090.93909375,"end":11090.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11090.95596875,"end":11091.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11091.614093750002,"end":11091.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11100.473468750002,"end":11101.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11102.160968750002,"end":11106.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11107.223468750002,"end":11118.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11111.745968750001,"end":11112.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11114.867843750002,"end":11114.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11114.88471875,"end":11122.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11120.976593750001,"end":11123.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11124.06471875,"end":11126.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11124.28409375,"end":11125.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11126.22471875,"end":11128.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11126.899718750003,"end":11144.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11137.56471875,"end":11137.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11137.598468750002,"end":11138.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11138.10471875,"end":11138.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11138.543468750002,"end":11138.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11144.567843750003,"end":11148.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11149.292843750001,"end":11150.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11149.59659375,"end":11149.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11150.96346875,"end":11151.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11151.48659375,"end":11153.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11151.53721875,"end":11152.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11152.39784375,"end":11152.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11154.152843750002,"end":11155.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11156.02596875,"end":11156.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11156.160968750002,"end":11156.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11156.262218750002,"end":11158.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11156.262218750002,"end":11159.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11158.962218750003,"end":11159.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11159.687843750002,"end":11180.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11181.355343750001,"end":11181.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11182.148468750001,"end":11185.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11183.481593750003,"end":11184.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11184.91596875,"end":11185.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11185.945343750001,"end":11186.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11186.265968750002,"end":11187.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11187.46409375,"end":11194.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11194.450343750003,"end":11201.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11200.94721875,"end":11205.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11204.457218750002,"end":11207.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11206.161593750003,"end":11206.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11208.051593750002,"end":11209.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11209.06409375,"end":11209.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11209.249718750001,"end":11215.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11216.18534375,"end":11218.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11220.35346875,"end":11222.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11222.969093750002,"end":11223.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11224.015343750001,"end":11224.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11224.79159375,"end":11244.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11244.77159375,"end":11249.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11250.070343750001,"end":11250.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11250.812843750002,"end":11260.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11258.085968750001,"end":11260.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11260.634093750003,"end":11260.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11261.680343750002,"end":11262.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11263.97534375,"end":11265.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11265.93284375,"end":11268.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11268.649718750003,"end":11269.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11269.45971875,"end":11270.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11269.76346875,"end":11269.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11271.180968750003,"end":11272.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11273.08784375,"end":11275.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11276.344718750002,"end":11277.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11278.335968750001,"end":11287.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11283.550343750001,"end":11284.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11284.10721875,"end":11284.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11288.32596875,"end":11301.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11301.977843750003,"end":11314.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11304.10409375,"end":11304.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11304.120968750001,"end":11304.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11304.137843750003,"end":11304.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11304.492218750001,"end":11304.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11304.509093750003,"end":11304.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11306.247218750003,"end":11307.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11314.718468750001,"end":11334.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11320.523468750001,"end":11321.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11321.755343750003,"end":11322.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11332.403468750003,"end":11332.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11332.977218750002,"end":11333.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11333.027843750002,"end":11334.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11335.06971875,"end":11341.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11339.11971875,"end":11344.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11345.76846875,"end":11345.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11345.785343750002,"end":11361.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11345.802218750003,"end":11346.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11346.308468750001,"end":11350.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11352.282218750002,"end":11354.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11354.03721875,"end":11354.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11361.68159375,"end":11368.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11369.629718750002,"end":11390.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11384.715968750003,"end":11385.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11389.238468750002,"end":11391.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11392.360343750002,"end":11402.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11402.468468750001,"end":11404.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11404.45971875,"end":11404.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11404.493468750003,"end":11404.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11404.67909375,"end":11427.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11406.535343750002,"end":11408.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11408.813468750002,"end":11408.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11421.06471875,"end":11424.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11424.86159375,"end":11424.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11426.852843750003,"end":11428.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11427.56159375,"end":11427.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11427.88221875,"end":11453.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11453.24534375,"end":11470.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11471.31846875,"end":11472.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11472.65159375,"end":11473.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11474.355968750002,"end":11483.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11483.637218750002,"end":11503.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11504.37659375,"end":11504.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11505.405968750001,"end":11507.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11509.65846875,"end":11524.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11513.421593750001,"end":11513.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11525.33534375,"end":11528.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11529.16596875,"end":11531.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11532.65909375,"end":11534.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11534.65034375,"end":11536.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11537.687843750002,"end":11545.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11545.534718750001,"end":11562.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11563.270343750002,"end":11571.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11567.961593750002,"end":11568.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11570.03721875,"end":11579.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11579.21721875,"end":11579.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11579.234093750001,"end":11579.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11579.706593750001,"end":11579.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11580.297218750002,"end":11582.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11581.613468750002,"end":11581.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11581.630343750003,"end":11588.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11587.418468750002,"end":11594.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11588.29596875,"end":11588.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11588.34659375,"end":11588.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11588.363468750002,"end":11588.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11589.66284375,"end":11593.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11593.51034375,"end":11593.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11594.82659375,"end":11598.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11598.015968750002,"end":11600.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11600.51346875,"end":11600.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11601.15471875,"end":11601.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11601.47534375,"end":11603.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11601.660968750002,"end":11602.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11603.820968750002,"end":11616.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11616.91596875,"end":11617.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11617.844093750002,"end":11627.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11627.98596875,"end":11629.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11628.67784375,"end":11632.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11631.32721875,"end":11640.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11639.410343750002,"end":11640.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11640.726593750001,"end":11640.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11641.688468750002,"end":11648.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11647.915343750003,"end":11657.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11650.66596875,"end":11650.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11651.03721875,"end":11651.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11653.41659375,"end":11653.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11653.433468750001,"end":11658.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11657.36534375,"end":11657.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11658.968468750001,"end":11662.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11659.10346875,"end":11659.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11659.137218750002,"end":11662.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11663.625968750002,"end":11669.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11669.19471875,"end":11669.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11669.211593750002,"end":11670.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11671.962218750003,"end":11674.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11677.46346875,"end":11680.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11680.652843750002,"end":11682.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11703.72096875,"end":11704.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11706.47159375,"end":11708.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11708.243468750003,"end":11709.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11715.398468750001,"end":11717.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11715.449093750001,"end":11716.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11718.874718750001,"end":11724.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11725.38846875,"end":11728.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11726.19846875,"end":11726.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11728.03784375,"end":11728.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11728.105343750001,"end":11728.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11728.122218750003,"end":11728.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11728.18971875,"end":11728.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11728.24034375,"end":11728.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11728.30784375,"end":11728.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11728.965968750003,"end":11729.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11729.03346875,"end":11732.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11729.843468750001,"end":11731.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11733.336593750002,"end":11736.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11736.62721875,"end":11738.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11738.669093750003,"end":11741.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11741.622218750003,"end":11743.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11741.942843750003,"end":11742.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11743.52909375,"end":11744.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11744.79471875,"end":11747.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11747.74784375,"end":11747.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11747.76471875,"end":11754.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11747.91659375,"end":11749.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11755.18971875,"end":11755.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11756.269718750002,"end":11759.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11759.56034375,"end":11760.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11761.14659375,"end":11761.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11761.78784375,"end":11765.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11765.449718750002,"end":11765.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11765.88846875,"end":11767.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11767.94721875,"end":11770.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11771.136593750001,"end":11773.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11774.055968750003,"end":11776.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11777.12721875,"end":11778.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11779.28721875,"end":11779.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11780.14784375,"end":11781.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11782.30784375,"end":11785.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11785.88534375,"end":11787.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11788.21409375,"end":11789.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11789.95221875,"end":11793.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11793.462218750003,"end":11793.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11793.597218750001,"end":11797.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11795.11596875,"end":11795.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11797.44471875,"end":11801.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11800.667843750001,"end":11803.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11802.16971875,"end":11804.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11804.481593750003,"end":11807.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11804.61659375,"end":11804.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11806.320968750002,"end":11806.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11807.45159375,"end":11812.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11812.750343750002,"end":11817.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11812.902218750001,"end":11814.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11816.665343750003,"end":11818.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11818.58909375,"end":11820.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11821.289093750001,"end":11825.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11826.351593750001,"end":11827.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11828.24159375,"end":11828.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11829.203468750002,"end":11831.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11831.02596875,"end":11833.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11832.34221875,"end":11832.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11833.70909375,"end":11834.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11835.76784375,"end":11837.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11838.180968750003,"end":11842.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11843.04096875,"end":11843.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11844.42471875,"end":11846.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11846.669093750003,"end":11847.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11847.47909375,"end":11848.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11848.660343750002,"end":11850.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11851.140968750002,"end":11852.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11853.48659375,"end":11853.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11853.53721875,"end":11853.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11853.55409375,"end":11854.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11854.735343750002,"end":11855.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11856.96284375,"end":11862.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11863.172843750002,"end":11864.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11865.24846875,"end":11868.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11868.94409375,"end":11870.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11871.10409375,"end":11875.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11875.05284375,"end":11875.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11875.086593750002,"end":11875.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11875.339718750001,"end":11875.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11875.356593750003,"end":11875.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11875.37346875,"end":11881.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11876.824718750002,"end":11879.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11880.503468750001,"end":11882.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11882.59596875,"end":11883.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11883.372218750003,"end":11886.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11887.28721875,"end":11890.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11891.13471875,"end":11891.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11891.387843750003,"end":11894.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11892.87284375,"end":11900.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11900.230343750001,"end":11901.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11902.06971875,"end":11903.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11903.75721875,"end":11908.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11909.579093750002,"end":11911.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11912.27909375,"end":11914.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11914.624718750001,"end":11916.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11917.29096875,"end":11918.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11918.65784375,"end":11919.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11919.332843750002,"end":11922.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11923.29846875,"end":11924.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11925.019718750002,"end":11926.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11926.42034375,"end":11927.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11928.52971875,"end":11930.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11931.195968750002,"end":11933.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11934.098468750002,"end":11936.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11937.23721875,"end":11938.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11938.722218750001,"end":11944.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11945.40471875,"end":11946.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11947.09221875,"end":11951.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11951.648468750001,"end":11951.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11952.120968750001,"end":11952.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11952.981593750003,"end":11957.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11957.26784375,"end":11959.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11957.976593750001,"end":11959.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11959.64721875,"end":11963.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11959.664093750001,"end":11959.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11963.612843750001,"end":11967.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11964.034718750001,"end":11964.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11965.469093750002,"end":11966.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11966.312843750002,"end":11966.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11966.32971875,"end":11966.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11968.472843750002,"end":11970.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11971.206593750001,"end":11978.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11978.73284375,"end":11981.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11981.669093750003,"end":11981.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11981.68596875,"end":11981.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11981.820968750002,"end":11982.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11982.95159375,"end":11988.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11987.524718750003,"end":11988.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11988.790343750003,"end":11988.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11988.80721875,"end":11989.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11989.364093750002,"end":12003.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11989.39784375,"end":11989.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11989.54971875,"end":11989.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11991.034718750001,"end":11991.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11992.82346875,"end":11992.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11992.97534375,"end":11993.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11993.042843750001,"end":11993.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11993.110343750002,"end":11993.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11993.12721875,"end":11993.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11993.17784375,"end":11993.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11993.262218750002,"end":11993.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11997.04221875,"end":11999.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12003.927218750003,"end":12007.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12007.57221875,"end":12026.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12022.067843750003,"end":12022.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12024.480968750002,"end":12025.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12025.03784375,"end":12025.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12027.113468750002,"end":12029.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12027.130343750003,"end":12028.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12029.222843750002,"end":12035.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12035.280968750001,"end":12036.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12037.17096875,"end":12037.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12038.53784375,"end":12041.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12041.946593750003,"end":12042.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12043.07721875,"end":12044.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12044.34284375,"end":12050.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12051.86909375,"end":12053.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12053.65784375,"end":12054.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12055.98659375,"end":12059.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12058.72034375,"end":12060.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12060.509093750003,"end":12062.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12062.770343750002,"end":12064.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12064.15409375,"end":12065.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12065.402843750002,"end":12067.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12065.723468750002,"end":12065.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12065.85846875,"end":12065.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12068.44034375,"end":12069.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12070.617218750001,"end":12071.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12072.60846875,"end":12074.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12075.257843750001,"end":12076.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12076.995968750001,"end":12077.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12077.434718750003,"end":12080.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12081.180968750003,"end":12082.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12083.94846875,"end":12084.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12084.488468750002,"end":12085.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12085.281593750002,"end":12085.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12085.73721875,"end":12086.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12086.98596875,"end":12087.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12087.00284375,"end":12087.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12087.77909375,"end":12087.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12087.812843750002,"end":12088.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12088.20096875,"end":12092.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12093.972218750001,"end":12096.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12097.65096875,"end":12104.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12102.578468750002,"end":12104.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12104.60346875,"end":12105.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12105.059093750002,"end":12105.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12105.09284375,"end":12112.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12111.488468750002,"end":12113.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12113.395343750002,"end":12114.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12115.53846875,"end":12116.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12116.770343750002,"end":12121.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12122.33909375,"end":12124.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12125.49471875,"end":12130.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12129.54471875,"end":12130.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12130.472843750002,"end":12130.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12130.742843750002,"end":12131.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12131.535968750002,"end":12132.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12132.734093750001,"end":12136.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12136.98659375,"end":12139.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12139.770968750003,"end":12141.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12141.914093750001,"end":12143.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12143.601593750001,"end":12145.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12146.301593750002,"end":12149.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12150.33471875,"end":12153.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12155.312843750002,"end":12155.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12156.578468750002,"end":12159.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12160.628468750001,"end":12161.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12162.83909375,"end":12163.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12164.644718750002,"end":12166.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12167.05784375,"end":12169.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12169.25159375,"end":12169.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12170.280968750001,"end":12171.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12172.27221875,"end":12172.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12173.402843750002,"end":12174.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12175.10721875,"end":12176.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12178.11096875,"end":12180.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12180.675968750002,"end":12182.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12183.34221875,"end":12186.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12184.320968750002,"end":12184.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12187.544093750003,"end":12188.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12189.46784375,"end":12190.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12191.762843750003,"end":12193.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12194.395343750002,"end":12195.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12196.757843750001,"end":12197.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12198.73221875,"end":12202.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12203.37284375,"end":12204.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12204.672218750002,"end":12205.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12206.81534375,"end":12207.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12209.02596875,"end":12210.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12211.13534375,"end":12212.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12211.202843750001,"end":12211.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12212.468468750001,"end":12212.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12212.755343750003,"end":12220.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12217.34534375,"end":12217.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12217.56471875,"end":12218.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12218.57721875,"end":12218.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12220.09596875,"end":12226.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12226.660343750002,"end":12231.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12228.465968750003,"end":12228.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12228.499718750001,"end":12230.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12230.37284375,"end":12231.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12232.212218750003,"end":12239.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12232.54971875,"end":12233.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12241.105343750001,"end":12243.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12245.15534375,"end":12253.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12246.218468750001,"end":12246.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12253.79534375,"end":12257.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12254.183468750001,"end":12254.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12256.44471875,"end":12257.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12258.18284375,"end":12262.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12263.61659375,"end":12265.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12267.210968750001,"end":12270.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12271.058468750001,"end":12271.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12271.952843750001,"end":12272.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12272.50971875,"end":12273.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12273.809093750002,"end":12273.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12273.87659375,"end":12274.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12274.028468750003,"end":12274.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12274.551593750002,"end":12274.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12274.58534375,"end":12274.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12274.66971875,"end":12274.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12274.973468750002,"end":12276.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12274.99034375,"end":12276.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12277.42034375,"end":12278.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12278.500343750002,"end":12278.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12279.462218750003,"end":12284.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12285.26721875,"end":12288.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12289.215968750003,"end":12289.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12290.009093750003,"end":12291.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12292.320968750002,"end":12293.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12294.531593750002,"end":12296.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12296.742218750001,"end":12299.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12300.285968750002,"end":12300.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12301.24784375,"end":12304.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12304.032218750002,"end":12316.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12311.59221875,"end":12311.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12311.609093750001,"end":12311.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12311.64284375,"end":12312.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12312.23346875,"end":12313.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12314.882843750001,"end":12319.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12318.91596875,"end":12319.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12319.60784375,"end":12319.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12319.641593750002,"end":12322.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12319.962218750003,"end":12320.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12320.485343750002,"end":12320.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12324.24846875,"end":12326.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12327.99471875,"end":12329.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12329.85096875,"end":12332.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12333.614093750002,"end":12334.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12334.930343750002,"end":12334.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12334.94721875,"end":12336.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12335.43659375,"end":12336.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12336.43221875,"end":12336.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12336.769718750002,"end":12338.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12336.80346875,"end":12337.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12338.085968750001,"end":12338.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12338.22096875,"end":12338.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12338.474093750003,"end":12338.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12338.84534375,"end":12339.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12340.06034375,"end":12343.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12343.87409375,"end":12345.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12346.692218750002,"end":12347.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12348.24471875,"end":12350.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12351.46784375,"end":12358.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12358.62284375,"end":12358.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12358.89284375,"end":12363.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12364.512218750002,"end":12364.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12365.44034375,"end":12368.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12369.034718750001,"end":12371.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12369.23721875,"end":12369.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12371.633468750002,"end":12371.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12372.02159375,"end":12374.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12375.210968750001,"end":12377.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12377.40471875,"end":12381.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12383.53034375,"end":12389.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12389.554718750001,"end":12390.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12390.60096875,"end":12390.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12390.617843750002,"end":12391.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12391.52909375,"end":12392.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12393.97596875,"end":12396.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12397.840343750002,"end":12400.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12402.210968750001,"end":12403.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12404.640968750002,"end":12406.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12406.61534375,"end":12407.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12408.94409375,"end":12412.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12412.454093750002,"end":12413.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12413.719718750002,"end":12417.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12413.770343750002,"end":12415.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12416.31846875,"end":12420.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12418.680968750003,"end":12420.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12421.364093750002,"end":12422.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12421.583468750003,"end":12423.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12422.69721875,"end":12424.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12424.469093750002,"end":12426.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12424.519718750002,"end":12425.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12427.30409375,"end":12428.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12429.49784375,"end":12432.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12432.46784375,"end":12433.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12433.09221875,"end":12442.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12440.331593750001,"end":12440.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12440.38221875,"end":12440.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12440.68596875,"end":12440.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12441.445343750001,"end":12450.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12451.75596875,"end":12466.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12463.93971875,"end":12464.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12465.070343750001,"end":12467.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12466.84221875,"end":12468.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12468.47909375,"end":12469.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12470.706593750001,"end":12472.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12473.254718750002,"end":12475.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12473.524718750003,"end":12474.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12475.583468750003,"end":12484.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12477.051593750002,"end":12478.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12478.80659375,"end":12479.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12484.98284375,"end":12487.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12488.13846875,"end":12488.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12488.965343750002,"end":12490.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12490.872218750003,"end":12491.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12492.35721875,"end":12494.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12494.38221875,"end":12496.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12497.89221875,"end":12505.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12506.481593750003,"end":12506.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12506.49846875,"end":12507.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12508.540343750003,"end":12509.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12510.09284375,"end":12515.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12515.965343750002,"end":12520.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12521.21346875,"end":12523.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12524.01471875,"end":12524.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12524.80784375,"end":12528.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12528.824093750001,"end":12528.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12530.07284375,"end":12537.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12530.157218750002,"end":12530.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12535.23659375,"end":12536.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12536.468468750001,"end":12537.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12537.649718750003,"end":12537.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12537.83534375,"end":12538.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12538.206593750001,"end":12541.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12541.83471875,"end":12543.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12543.82596875,"end":12545.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12545.98596875,"end":12546.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12547.52159375,"end":12550.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12550.879718750002,"end":12552.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12552.347843750002,"end":12553.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12553.74846875,"end":12554.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12554.946593750003,"end":12555.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12556.27971875,"end":12562.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12562.641593750002,"end":12562.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12562.995968750001,"end":12565.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12566.15159375,"end":12566.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12567.61971875,"end":12568.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12569.50971875,"end":12570.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12571.180343750002,"end":12573.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12573.289718750002,"end":12574.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12575.669093750003,"end":12577.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12577.035968750002,"end":12580.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12581.727218750002,"end":12586.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12585.01784375,"end":12589.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12587.17784375,"end":12587.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12589.01721875,"end":12592.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12589.894718750002,"end":12591.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12592.442843750003,"end":12594.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12594.282218750002,"end":12594.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12594.36659375,"end":12594.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12594.957218750002,"end":12595.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12595.328468750002,"end":12597.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12596.543468750002,"end":12596.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12597.555968750003,"end":12597.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12597.89346875,"end":12598.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12599.47971875,"end":12606.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12605.68971875,"end":12609.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12609.21659375,"end":12610.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12610.49909375,"end":12613.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12613.469093750002,"end":12618.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12613.50284375,"end":12614.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12614.65034375,"end":12614.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12619.594718750002,"end":12620.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12633.972218750001,"end":12634.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12639.23721875,"end":12644.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12645.599093750003,"end":12646.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12647.23596875,"end":12649.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12649.51409375,"end":12652.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12652.770968750003,"end":12654.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12655.352843750003,"end":12657.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12657.74909375,"end":12660.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12660.516593750002,"end":12661.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21072.062843749998,"end":21078.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21086.11971875,"end":21090.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21090.625343749998,"end":21092.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21098.05034375,"end":21099.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21100.210343749997,"end":21106.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21107.11221875,"end":21128.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21128.357843750004,"end":21140.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21140.20409375,"end":21144.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21144.169718750003,"end":21145.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21146.11034375,"end":21172.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21173.54909375,"end":21198.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21199.06409375,"end":21208.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21208.66596875,"end":21216.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21216.765968749998,"end":21226.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21226.94159375,"end":21254.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21254.835968749998,"end":21263.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21263.762843750003,"end":21278.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21278.71409375,"end":21280.772843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21280.92471875,"end":21286.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21285.98721875,"end":21286.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21287.303468750004,"end":21294.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21294.74534375,"end":21329.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21330.520343750002,"end":21362.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21362.44784375,"end":21386.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21386.663468749997,"end":21390.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21391.270343750002,"end":21418.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21418.54034375,"end":21421.358468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21421.358468750004,"end":21428.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21428.05784375,"end":21443.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21444.004718750002,"end":21453.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21453.35346875,"end":21467.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21468.03471875,"end":21475.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21468.11909375,"end":21468.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21473.265968749998,"end":21473.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21476.13471875,"end":21483.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21483.72846875,"end":21493.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21494.123468750004,"end":21497.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21497.599718750003,"end":21511.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21512.348468750002,"end":21515.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21515.537843750004,"end":21541.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21542.234093749998,"end":21547.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21549.03471875,"end":21561.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21561.75846875,"end":21572.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21572.87909375,"end":21580.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21581.687843749998,"end":21605.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21606.156593749998,"end":21614.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21615.16784375,"end":21650.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21650.70659375,"end":21658.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21658.50284375,"end":21673.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21674.19659375,"end":21683.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21683.359718749998,"end":21684.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21685.013468750003,"end":21686.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21686.700968750003,"end":21699.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21699.20534375,"end":21723.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21724.53471875,"end":21745.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21746.11784375,"end":21753.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21753.357218750003,"end":21764.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21765.10221875,"end":21768.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21768.949718750002,"end":21778.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21778.669718750003,"end":21779.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21779.952218750004,"end":21781.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21782.365343750003,"end":21783.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21783.765968749998,"end":21785.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21786.263468750003,"end":21804.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21787.29284375,"end":21787.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21788.72721875,"end":21789.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21789.06471875,"end":21789.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21789.50346875,"end":21789.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21804.707843750002,"end":21807.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21807.239093750002,"end":21809.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21810.24284375,"end":21818.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21819.507218749997,"end":21847.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21848.498468750004,"end":21852.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21853.00409375,"end":21858.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21858.420968750004,"end":21866.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21866.89221875,"end":21869.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21869.592218750004,"end":21872.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21872.68034375,"end":21873.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21873.389093750004,"end":21873.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21873.827843749998,"end":21874.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21874.18221875,"end":21883.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21884.020343750002,"end":21936.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21884.037218750003,"end":21886.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21901.249718749998,"end":21901.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21936.63659375,"end":21954.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21955.09784375,"end":21987.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21987.615968750004,"end":22005.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22026.14159375,"end":22029.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22030.005968750003,"end":22031.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22032.098468750002,"end":22035.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22051.319093750004,"end":22053.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22053.850343750004,"end":22055.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22058.11971875,"end":22060.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22060.34721875,"end":22060.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22060.54971875,"end":22061.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22062.827843749998,"end":22062.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22062.84471875,"end":22063.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22063.232843750004,"end":22064.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22064.700968750003,"end":22069.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22069.62846875,"end":22072.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22072.37909375,"end":22075.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22075.973468750002,"end":22079.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22079.669093750003,"end":22085.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22086.08159375,"end":22088.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22088.309093750002,"end":22094.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22095.24471875,"end":22097.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22098.31596875,"end":22099.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22100.256593750004,"end":22104.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22104.795968750004,"end":22110.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22111.25909375,"end":22116.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22116.96284375,"end":22118.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22118.599718750003,"end":22120.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22120.64159375,"end":22121.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22121.856593750003,"end":22127.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22127.037218750003,"end":22149.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22145.46471875,"end":22148.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22148.90721875,"end":22148.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22148.957843750002,"end":22161.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22162.069718749997,"end":22165.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22165.59659375,"end":22167.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22167.82409375,"end":22170.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22170.74346875,"end":22179.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22179.72096875,"end":22183.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22184.294093750003,"end":22186.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22186.757843749998,"end":22205.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22205.640968749998,"end":22207.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22207.80096875,"end":22210.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22210.72034375,"end":22212.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22213.116593749997,"end":22214.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22214.466593750003,"end":22219.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22220.052218750003,"end":22235.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22235.94846875,"end":22239.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22239.255968750003,"end":22251.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22251.389093750004,"end":22253.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22253.36346875,"end":22255.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22256.19846875,"end":22261.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22261.632218749997,"end":22266.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22267.28534375,"end":22270.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22270.289093749998,"end":22272.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22272.803468750004,"end":22280.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22281.30846875,"end":22286.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22286.219093749998,"end":22286.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22286.67471875,"end":22293.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22287.062843749998,"end":22287.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22288.54784375,"end":22288.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22293.036593750003,"end":22293.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22293.070343749998,"end":22294.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22294.03221875,"end":22322.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22321.521593750003,"end":22324.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22323.58034375,"end":22331.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22331.51159375,"end":22337.789093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22334.481593750003,"end":22335.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22338.02534375,"end":22352.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22338.059093750002,"end":22341.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22352.976593749998,"end":22359.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22359.794093750003,"end":22382.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22382.42346875,"end":22389.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22389.949718750002,"end":22390.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22390.489718750003,"end":22390.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22390.506593750004,"end":22402.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22390.65846875,"end":22391.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22402.35284375,"end":22417.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22407.41534375,"end":22409.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22409.96346875,"end":22410.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22417.67534375,"end":22421.100968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22417.945343749998,"end":22418.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22419.78471875,"end":22420.577843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22421.100968749997,"end":22423.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22421.320343749998,"end":22423.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22423.075343750003,"end":22423.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22423.48034375,"end":22423.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22423.497218750003,"end":22423.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22423.514093750004,"end":22423.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22423.76721875,"end":22424.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22423.817843750003,"end":22429.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22429.116593749997,"end":22430.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22432.255343750003,"end":22434.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22434.685343750003,"end":22438.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22439.022218750004,"end":22443.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22443.038468749997,"end":22444.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22444.827218750004,"end":22444.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22444.844093749998,"end":22446.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22446.12659375,"end":22450.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22450.834718750004,"end":22453.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22454.26034375,"end":22455.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22455.84659375,"end":22459.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22459.373468750004,"end":22471.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22471.371593750002,"end":22474.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22474.645343750002,"end":22476.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22477.193468750003,"end":22481.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22481.429093749997,"end":22482.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22482.93096875,"end":22491.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22490.22096875,"end":22499.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22499.434718750003,"end":22509.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22499.468468749998,"end":22499.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22508.37846875,"end":22509.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22509.28971875,"end":22510.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22510.504718750002,"end":22520.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22520.663468749997,"end":22522.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22522.654718750004,"end":22527.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22528.139093750004,"end":22528.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22529.303468750004,"end":22540.913468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22541.14971875,"end":22552.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22552.405343750004,"end":22553.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22553.29971875,"end":22553.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22553.789093749998,"end":22578.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22575.97971875,"end":22576.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22577.835968749998,"end":22581.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22581.22784375,"end":22583.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22583.809718750003,"end":22607.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22607.28284375,"end":22610.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22610.421593749998,"end":22611.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22612.02471875,"end":22614.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22615.247843750003,"end":22618.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22618.538468749997,"end":22619.905343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22620.49596875,"end":22624.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22624.343468749998,"end":22628.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22628.61284375,"end":22631.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22632.240968750004,"end":22633.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22633.74284375,"end":22635.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22635.36284375,"end":22636.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22636.982843750004,"end":22640.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22640.239718750003,"end":22640.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22640.62784375,"end":22666.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22651.69784375,"end":22652.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22665.990968750004,"end":22674.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22667.18909375,"end":22668.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22672.55534375,"end":22673.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22673.53409375,"end":22673.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22674.023468749998,"end":22674.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22674.39471875,"end":22682.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22682.49471875,"end":22682.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22683.372218750003,"end":22689.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22685.53221875,"end":22685.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22686.359093749998,"end":22687.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22687.371593750002,"end":22696.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22696.905968749998,"end":22698.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22698.576593750004,"end":22699.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22699.45409375,"end":22700.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22700.31471875,"end":22701.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22701.546593749998,"end":22702.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22703.04846875,"end":22703.217218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22713.426593750002,"end":22714.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22714.506593750004,"end":22715.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22715.873468750004,"end":22718.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22718.826593750004,"end":22720.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22720.919093750003,"end":22722.859718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22723.163468749997,"end":22724.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22724.80034375,"end":22730.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22730.132843749998,"end":22730.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22730.60534375,"end":22737.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22737.574718750002,"end":22738.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22738.70534375,"end":22744.358468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22741.01721875,"end":22742.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22742.94096875,"end":22752.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22752.74534375,"end":22756.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22756.74471875,"end":22760.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22760.33909375,"end":22761.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22761.46971875,"end":22762.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22762.684718750003,"end":22766.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22766.279093750003,"end":22771.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22771.645343750002,"end":22777.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22775.661593750003,"end":22778.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22779.00284375,"end":22779.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22779.053468750004,"end":22779.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22780.47096875,"end":22782.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22782.749093750004,"end":22783.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22784.14971875,"end":22785.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22785.567218750002,"end":22787.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22787.406593749998,"end":22788.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22789.364093750002,"end":22793.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22793.46471875,"end":22794.156593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22794.443468750003,"end":22796.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22796.90721875,"end":22799.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22799.404718750004,"end":22801.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22802.42534375,"end":22806.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22806.272843749997,"end":22810.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22810.694093750004,"end":22816.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22816.785968750002,"end":22819.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22819.114718750003,"end":22819.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22819.671593749998,"end":22821.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22822.13534375,"end":22826.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22827.11346875,"end":22835.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22835.43284375,"end":22840.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22840.68096875,"end":22843.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22844.123468750004,"end":22846.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22846.671593749998,"end":22851.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22851.78471875,"end":22855.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22855.58159375,"end":22856.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22857.302843750003,"end":22857.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22857.91034375,"end":22860.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22859.952218750004,"end":22861.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22860.82971875,"end":22862.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22861.89284375,"end":22870.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22865.622218750003,"end":22865.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22865.639093750004,"end":22865.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22866.584093750003,"end":22866.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22866.600968749997,"end":22866.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22866.63471875,"end":22866.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22866.702218750004,"end":22867.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22870.02659375,"end":22870.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22870.701593750004,"end":22876.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22873.148468749998,"end":22888.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22888.217843750004,"end":22913.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22902.679718749998,"end":22902.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22902.747218750003,"end":22902.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22902.764093750004,"end":22903.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22903.96221875,"end":22904.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22913.14221875,"end":22915.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22915.926593750002,"end":22917.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22917.78284375,"end":22920.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22920.904718750004,"end":22922.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22922.94659375,"end":22932.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22926.692843750003,"end":22928.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22932.413468749997,"end":22935.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22936.935968750004,"end":22947.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22939.63596875,"end":22942.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":22942.97721875,"end":22943.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22943.027843750002,"end":22943.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":22943.71971875,"end":22943.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":22945.154093750003,"end":22945.491593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22945.491593749997,"end":22945.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22945.997843750003,"end":22947.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22947.364718750003,"end":22947.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22947.53346875,"end":22947.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22947.719093749998,"end":22949.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":22948.343468749998,"end":22951.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22950.030968749998,"end":22963.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22963.80096875,"end":22965.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22965.640343749998,"end":22968.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22968.96471875,"end":22971.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22969.03221875,"end":22969.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22971.36096875,"end":22971.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22971.445343749998,"end":22971.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22980.169718750003,"end":22983.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22984.422218749998,"end":22989.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23003.32221875,"end":23005.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23005.65096875,"end":23007.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23007.490343750003,"end":23008.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23007.55784375,"end":23012.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23015.03346875,"end":23015.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23016.265343749998,"end":23016.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23017.24409375,"end":23019.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23019.201593750004,"end":23019.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23020.230968750002,"end":23021.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23022.18846875,"end":23022.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23023.757843749998,"end":23025.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23025.614093750002,"end":23027.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23027.554718749998,"end":23028.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23029.022843749997,"end":23031.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23032.077218750004,"end":23034.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23034.54096875,"end":23036.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23037.848468750002,"end":23038.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23038.371593750002,"end":23040.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23040.801593750002,"end":23043.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23044.02471875,"end":23045.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23045.864093750002,"end":23046.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23046.35346875,"end":23046.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23047.72034375,"end":23048.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23048.24346875,"end":23048.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23048.850968749997,"end":23049.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23049.036593750003,"end":23058.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23050.842218750004,"end":23051.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23058.672218749998,"end":23063.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23063.78534375,"end":23066.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23067.177218750003,"end":23070.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23070.467843750004,"end":23074.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23075.631593750004,"end":23076.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23077.13346875,"end":23079.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23078.19659375,"end":23097.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":23099.459093750003,"end":23099.475968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23099.475968749997,"end":23099.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23101.551593750002,"end":23101.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23101.585343749997,"end":23102.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23103.053468750004,"end":23104.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23104.97721875,"end":23106.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23106.15846875,"end":23107.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23107.997843750003,"end":23113.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23113.600343750004,"end":23114.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23115.270968750003,"end":23115.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23117.21159375,"end":23118.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23118.71346875,"end":23120.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23120.468468749998,"end":23121.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23121.632843749998,"end":23122.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23123.185343750003,"end":23124.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23125.328468749998,"end":23126.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23127.26909375,"end":23130.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23131.77471875,"end":23133.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23134.30596875,"end":23153.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23154.083468750003,"end":23162.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23162.976593749998,"end":23163.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23163.600968749997,"end":23164.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23165.45721875,"end":23169.085343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23170.452218750004,"end":23175.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23176.20659375,"end":23177.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23177.96159375,"end":23178.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23179.530968749998,"end":23182.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23183.78346875,"end":23184.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23185.116593749997,"end":23186.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23186.21346875,"end":23192.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23193.014093750004,"end":23198.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23199.544718750003,"end":23201.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23201.40096875,"end":23202.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23204.37096875,"end":23204.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23209.585343749997,"end":23211.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23211.86346875,"end":23216.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23217.077843749998,"end":23219.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23220.419093750003,"end":23221.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23221.56659375,"end":23224.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23225.04284375,"end":23228.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23228.83971875,"end":23240.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23241.36096875,"end":23244.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23244.702218750004,"end":23245.343468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23245.934093750002,"end":23246.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23247.82409375,"end":23250.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23252.34659375,"end":23255.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23256.396593750003,"end":23256.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23257.20659375,"end":23258.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23258.910968750002,"end":23259.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23266.47096875,"end":23266.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23267.584718750004,"end":23269.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23269.575968750003,"end":23272.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23272.79909375,"end":23274.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23275.75221875,"end":23277.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23277.54096875,"end":23278.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23279.700968750003,"end":23282.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23283.396593750003,"end":23283.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23285.590343750002,"end":23289.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23290.568468750003,"end":23291.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23292.40784375,"end":23296.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":23296.575968750003,"end":23296.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23296.82909375,"end":23300.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23300.912843750004,"end":23301.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23302.98846875,"end":23305.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23305.435343750003,"end":23313.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23314.598468750002,"end":23315.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23315.94846875,"end":23319.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23319.880343750003,"end":23320.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23321.027843750002,"end":23321.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23321.09534375,"end":23321.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23321.365343750003,"end":23321.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23321.500343749998,"end":23321.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23322.209093750003,"end":23323.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23323.474718750003,"end":23331.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23331.32159375,"end":23337.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23337.531593749998,"end":23337.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23337.66659375,"end":23337.835343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23337.835343750005,"end":23353.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23354.187218749998,"end":23359.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23359.215968750003,"end":23362.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23359.249718749998,"end":23359.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23362.827218750004,"end":23366.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23366.640968749998,"end":23367.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23368.26096875,"end":23369.155343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23369.83034375,"end":23371.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23371.60221875,"end":23377.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23378.132843749998,"end":23383.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23384.123468750004,"end":23384.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23385.10221875,"end":23385.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23386.08096875,"end":23387.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23388.69659375,"end":23389.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23390.31659375,"end":23391.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23391.88596875,"end":23393.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23394.60284375,"end":23396.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23397.16784375,"end":23398.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23399.209718750004,"end":23400.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23400.812843749998,"end":23402.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23403.630968750003,"end":23410.077218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23410.617218749998,"end":23411.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23412.473468750002,"end":23413.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23413.90784375,"end":23415.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23415.47721875,"end":23415.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23415.83159375,"end":23416.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23416.03409375,"end":23416.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23416.101593749998,"end":23416.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23417.31659375,"end":23446.999718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23427.64409375,"end":23430.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23445.97034375,"end":23446.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23446.999718749998,"end":23449.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23449.395968750003,"end":23449.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23449.56471875,"end":23451.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23451.319718750005,"end":23451.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23452.01159375,"end":23453.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23453.952218750004,"end":23454.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23454.62721875,"end":23455.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23456.179718749998,"end":23457.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23457.428468750004,"end":23458.913468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23458.96409375,"end":23462.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23462.997218750003,"end":23475.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23476.34534375,"end":23477.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23477.61096875,"end":23478.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23479.43346875,"end":23480.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23480.429093750005,"end":23480.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23480.749718749998,"end":23482.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23482.03221875,"end":23482.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23482.99409375,"end":23483.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23484.107843750004,"end":23506.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23487.21284375,"end":23489.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23501.708468750003,"end":23502.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23506.247843750003,"end":23507.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23509.16721875,"end":23511.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23511.344093749998,"end":23517.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23517.28409375,"end":23523.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23524.067843750003,"end":23525.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23526.480968750002,"end":23528.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23529.164093749998,"end":23531.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23532.89346875,"end":23533.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23533.18034375,"end":23564.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23534.56409375,"end":23536.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23562.44159375,"end":23563.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23564.145968750003,"end":23567.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23567.976593749998,"end":23568.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23568.09471875,"end":23568.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23569.242218749998,"end":23570.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23571.233468750004,"end":23572.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23573.427218750003,"end":23585.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23585.138468750003,"end":23587.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23587.50096875,"end":23587.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23588.44596875,"end":23595.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23595.22971875,"end":23599.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23597.474093750003,"end":23605.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23606.58659375,"end":23608.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23609.640968749998,"end":23609.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23609.67471875,"end":23609.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23609.708468750003,"end":23609.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23609.826593750004,"end":23614.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23609.843468749998,"end":23611.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23612.22284375,"end":23613.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23613.505343750003,"end":23613.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23614.365968750004,"end":23615.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23616.137843750003,"end":23627.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23621.841593750003,"end":23628.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23627.207843750002,"end":23627.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23628.03471875,"end":23628.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23628.96284375,"end":23644.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23629.047218749998,"end":23629.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23629.82346875,"end":23629.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23630.11034375,"end":23630.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23630.177843750003,"end":23630.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23630.481593750003,"end":23630.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23632.000343749998,"end":23632.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23632.067843750003,"end":23632.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23633.350343750004,"end":23633.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23633.367218749998,"end":23633.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23633.40096875,"end":23637.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23637.771593750003,"end":23638.632218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23642.749718749998,"end":23651.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23651.592218750004,"end":23651.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23651.62596875,"end":23651.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23651.94659375,"end":23651.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23651.997218750003,"end":23652.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23652.30096875,"end":23652.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23652.975968750005,"end":23654.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23654.865968750004,"end":23656.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23654.89971875,"end":23659.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23657.00909375,"end":23657.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23659.77659375,"end":23665.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23660.434718750003,"end":23661.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23661.97034375,"end":23662.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23663.067218750002,"end":23669.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23665.64909375,"end":23665.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23665.834718750004,"end":23665.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23665.96971875,"end":23666.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23666.037218750003,"end":23666.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":23666.42534375,"end":23666.475968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23669.17596875,"end":23669.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23670.475343750004,"end":23674.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23674.575968750003,"end":23675.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23675.79096875,"end":23675.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23675.976593749998,"end":23677.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23677.242218749998,"end":23677.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23678.55846875,"end":23680.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23680.262843750003,"end":23680.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23683.78971875,"end":23689.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23686.067843750003,"end":23686.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23686.25346875,"end":23687.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23689.30784375,"end":23692.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23693.62784375,"end":23694.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23694.97784375,"end":23696.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23697.154718750004,"end":23701.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23701.84596875,"end":23704.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23704.343468749998,"end":23707.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23708.224718750003,"end":23711.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23713.21971875,"end":23715.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":23713.270343750002,"end":23713.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23715.497843750003,"end":23716.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23717.100968750005,"end":23718.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23720.42534375,"end":23720.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23722.045343750004,"end":23723.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23724.036593750003,"end":23724.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23725.335968749998,"end":23732.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23732.592218750004,"end":23736.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23737.36784375,"end":23738.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23737.40159375,"end":23742.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23742.379718750002,"end":23743.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23744.15159375,"end":23745.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23746.66596875,"end":23748.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23749.382843749998,"end":23750.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23751.42471875,"end":23753.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23753.97284375,"end":23755.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23755.32284375,"end":23757.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23758.005968750003,"end":23760.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23760.26721875,"end":23766.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23763.52409375,"end":23764.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23765.44784375,"end":23769.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23770.30784375,"end":23772.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23772.73784375,"end":23774.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23775.13409375,"end":23776.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23776.669718750003,"end":23777.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23777.88471875,"end":23779.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23777.98596875,"end":23778.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23779.48784375,"end":23785.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23784.87096875,"end":23785.444718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23786.069093750004,"end":23786.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23786.153468750003,"end":23786.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23786.507843749998,"end":23790.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23786.52471875,"end":23787.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23790.304718749998,"end":23791.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23795.09721875,"end":23796.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23797.30784375,"end":23797.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23798.725343750004,"end":23800.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23800.64909375,"end":23803.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23804.108468750004,"end":23808.647843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23809.44096875,"end":23810.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23812.88346875,"end":23812.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23812.950968750003,"end":23814.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23813.76096875,"end":23814.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23814.874718749998,"end":23822.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23822.451593750004,"end":23823.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23822.58659375,"end":23825.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23824.054718749998,"end":23829.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23829.623468750004,"end":23829.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23829.640343749998,"end":23830.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23830.39971875,"end":23830.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23832.812843749998,"end":23834.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23834.83784375,"end":23836.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23836.93034375,"end":23839.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23839.49534375,"end":23842.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23843.69721875,"end":23848.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23849.58659375,"end":23850.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23851.94909375,"end":23852.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23853.60284375,"end":23854.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23855.138468750003,"end":23856.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23857.247843750003,"end":23857.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23858.935343750003,"end":23860.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23861.23034375,"end":23864.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23864.959718750004,"end":23865.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23866.107218750003,"end":23867.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23867.54159375,"end":23868.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23869.02659375,"end":23869.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23870.29221875,"end":23872.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23872.874093750004,"end":23873.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23874.156593749998,"end":23875.725968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23875.793468750002,"end":23885.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23885.395343750002,"end":23885.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23886.52596875,"end":23887.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23887.605968750002,"end":23888.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23888.29784375,"end":23888.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23889.647843750005,"end":23890.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23891.36909375,"end":23892.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23892.55034375,"end":23893.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23894.03534375,"end":23894.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23895.098468750002,"end":23901.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23901.30846875,"end":23902.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23902.928468750004,"end":23903.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23903.468468749998,"end":23907.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":23905.61159375,"end":23906.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":23907.07971875,"end":23907.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23908.05846875,"end":23909.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23908.36221875,"end":23908.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23908.395968750003,"end":23909.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23909.965343750002,"end":23911.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23911.804718749998,"end":23915.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23915.82096875,"end":23922.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23922.70596875,"end":23923.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23924.07284375,"end":23925.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23925.287843750004,"end":23928.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23928.29159375,"end":23928.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23928.40971875,"end":23928.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23930.50221875,"end":23938.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23938.551593750002,"end":23941.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23942.29784375,"end":23944.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23944.84596875,"end":23953.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":23960.11784375,"end":23962.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23960.843468749998,"end":23961.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23963.543468750002,"end":23964.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23969.669093750003,"end":23970.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":23970.98534375,"end":23971.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23971.694093750004,"end":23971.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":23971.94721875,"end":23982.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23982.038468750005,"end":23994.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23994.812843749998,"end":24000.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24001.07346875,"end":24025.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24024.749093750004,"end":24026.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24026.453468749998,"end":24038.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24038.552843750003,"end":24038.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24038.856593750003,"end":24134.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24133.12034375,"end":24135.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24135.044093750003,"end":24171.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24171.038468750005,"end":24174.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24174.295343750004,"end":24177.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24178.14284375,"end":24183.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":24178.176593750002,"end":24178.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":24182.24346875,"end":24182.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":24183.239093750002,"end":24183.694718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24183.694718750005,"end":24190.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":24186.79971875,"end":24186.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24186.968468749998,"end":24189.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24190.49534375,"end":24193.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24193.76909375,"end":24196.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24196.232843750004,"end":24196.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24196.755968750003,"end":24208.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24208.484093749998,"end":24220.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24220.920968750004,"end":24227.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24227.687843749998,"end":24232.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24231.585968749998,"end":24233.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24233.239718750003,"end":24233.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24233.29034375,"end":24239.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24235.73721875,"end":24235.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24235.770968750003,"end":24235.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24235.973468750002,"end":24236.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24236.02409375,"end":24236.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24237.30659375,"end":24237.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24237.96471875,"end":24238.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24239.93909375,"end":24302.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24302.69721875,"end":24303.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24303.42284375,"end":24308.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24308.367218749998,"end":24323.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24323.16659375,"end":24333.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24333.865343750003,"end":24336.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24336.22784375,"end":24336.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24337.29096875,"end":24342.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24342.859718749998,"end":24358.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24359.076593750004,"end":24361.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24361.87784375,"end":24364.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24364.20659375,"end":24364.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24364.29096875,"end":24370.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24364.560968750004,"end":24364.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24365.53971875,"end":24365.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24365.65784375,"end":24365.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24365.89409375,"end":24366.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24371.37846875,"end":24376.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24376.94721875,"end":24380.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24381.115343750003,"end":24390.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24390.902843750002,"end":24398.850968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24398.952218750004,"end":24403.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24403.879718750002,"end":24424.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24411.94596875,"end":24412.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24413.00909375,"end":24413.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24413.02596875,"end":24413.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24413.059718750003,"end":24414.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24422.695343749998,"end":24422.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24424.92284375,"end":24425.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24425.86784375,"end":24426.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24426.96471875,"end":24429.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24429.124718749998,"end":24432.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24429.49596875,"end":24431.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24432.33096875,"end":24438.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24438.65909375,"end":24451.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24452.294093750003,"end":24477.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24477.387218750002,"end":24479.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24480.32346875,"end":24492.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24491.81534375,"end":24501.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24501.29909375,"end":24523.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24523.15221875,"end":24549.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24532.652843750002,"end":24535.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24550.067843750003,"end":24561.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24562.35284375,"end":24579.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24579.109718749998,"end":24585.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24586.551593750002,"end":24590.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24590.922218749998,"end":24590.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24591.07409375,"end":24597.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24598.24596875,"end":24602.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24600.77721875,"end":24601.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24602.02596875,"end":24606.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24603.679718749998,"end":24603.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24604.67534375,"end":24604.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24606.58221875,"end":24611.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24607.560968750004,"end":24607.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24609.147218750004,"end":24611.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24611.762843750003,"end":24632.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24611.93159375,"end":24611.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24612.48846875,"end":24614.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24632.451593750004,"end":24656.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24656.53221875,"end":24662.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24662.404718750004,"end":24666.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24667.281593749998,"end":24682.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24683.093468749998,"end":24693.859718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24694.365968750004,"end":24696.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24697.57221875,"end":24700.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24700.22159375,"end":24710.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24707.51159375,"end":24707.663468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24710.414093749998,"end":24711.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24711.780968749998,"end":24715.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24716.219093749998,"end":24721.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24717.73784375,"end":24718.311593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24718.311593750004,"end":24718.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24721.50096875,"end":24727.069718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24727.390343749998,"end":24728.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24727.50846875,"end":24727.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24727.96409375,"end":24728.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24729.22971875,"end":24733.397843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24733.684718750003,"end":24737.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":24737.937218749998,"end":24744.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24744.11346875,"end":24817.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24773.00346875,"end":24773.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24817.975343750004,"end":24875.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24889.373468750004,"end":24893.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24893.87909375,"end":24896.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24896.89971875,"end":24899.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24909.55596875,"end":24910.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24910.365968750004,"end":24910.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24910.39971875,"end":24910.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24911.074718750002,"end":24911.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24912.137843750003,"end":24913.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24920.33909375,"end":24922.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24923.83221875,"end":24926.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24927.79784375,"end":24932.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24933.029093750003,"end":24934.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24935.49284375,"end":24938.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24938.496593750002,"end":24940.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24940.87596875,"end":24942.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24943.10346875,"end":24944.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24945.044093750003,"end":24946.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24946.81596875,"end":24948.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24948.959093750003,"end":24950.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24951.372218750003,"end":24953.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24954.59534375,"end":24956.991593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24958.020968750003,"end":24960.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24960.855968750002,"end":24962.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24962.91471875,"end":24965.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24966.255968750003,"end":24967.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24969.209093750003,"end":24972.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24972.887843750003,"end":24975.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24975.554093750005,"end":24976.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24977.79846875,"end":24979.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24979.030343750004,"end":24988.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24986.26971875,"end":24986.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24988.88534375,"end":24989.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24989.62784375,"end":24997.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24998.335343750005,"end":25011.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25012.155968749998,"end":25016.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25016.762843750003,"end":25018.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25018.770968750003,"end":25020.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25020.812843749998,"end":25021.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25023.023468749998,"end":25025.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25026.162218750003,"end":25037.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25037.957843750002,"end":25042.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25042.817843750003,"end":25054.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25054.748468750004,"end":25057.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25057.41471875,"end":25058.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25059.22034375,"end":25060.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25060.975343750004,"end":25061.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25062.443468750003,"end":25064.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25064.772218750004,"end":25066.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25066.59471875,"end":25068.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25068.60284375,"end":25069.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25070.10471875,"end":25072.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25072.51784375,"end":25082.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25082.45721875,"end":25084.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25085.309093750002,"end":25085.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25086.608468750004,"end":25087.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25088.599718750003,"end":25091.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25091.789093749998,"end":25093.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25093.59471875,"end":25107.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25096.632218750005,"end":25096.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25107.65159375,"end":25108.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25109.187218749998,"end":25110.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25111.14471875,"end":25111.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25112.528468750003,"end":25115.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25115.75159375,"end":25122.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25122.82221875,"end":25124.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25125.859718749998,"end":25126.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25126.585343750005,"end":25129.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25129.960343750005,"end":25137.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25133.99346875,"end":25134.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25134.179093750005,"end":25134.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25134.19596875,"end":25134.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25137.50346875,"end":25137.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25138.279718750004,"end":25140.203468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25140.43971875,"end":25143.156593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25143.882218750005,"end":25149.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25149.771593750003,"end":25153.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25154.05784375,"end":25154.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25154.935343750003,"end":25155.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25156.217843750004,"end":25161.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25161.53346875,"end":25167.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25167.03471875,"end":25175.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25176.09659375,"end":25196.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25196.95409375,"end":25230.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25219.364093750002,"end":25219.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25219.600343750004,"end":25219.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25219.65096875,"end":25219.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25230.484718749998,"end":25230.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25230.60284375,"end":25236.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25230.82221875,"end":25230.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25236.52596875,"end":25259.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25259.999093750004,"end":25261.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25262.412218750003,"end":25264.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25265.061593750004,"end":25266.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25267.137218750002,"end":25268.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25268.90909375,"end":25271.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25272.233468750004,"end":25273.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25274.17409375,"end":25274.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25274.93346875,"end":25276.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25277.24534375,"end":25287.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25287.97784375,"end":25291.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25291.28534375,"end":25294.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25294.64346875,"end":25296.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25297.46159375,"end":25299.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25299.89159375,"end":25301.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25301.83221875,"end":25302.507218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25302.726593749998,"end":25304.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25304.414093749998,"end":25309.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25309.40909375,"end":25310.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25311.31596875,"end":25312.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25312.68284375,"end":25312.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25313.475968750005,"end":25314.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25314.99471875,"end":25319.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25319.97284375,"end":25321.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25322.014718750004,"end":25322.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25323.41534375,"end":25324.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25324.832843750002,"end":25327.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25327.87034375,"end":25328.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25329.405968749998,"end":25332.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25332.27471875,"end":25334.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25335.02534375,"end":25337.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25337.96159375,"end":25337.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25338.11346875,"end":25338.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25338.332843750002,"end":25338.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25338.349718750003,"end":25390.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25390.27409375,"end":25404.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25404.904718750004,"end":25406.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25406.86221875,"end":25408.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25409.05596875,"end":25412.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25413.038468750005,"end":25414.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25414.89471875,"end":25418.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25419.09659375,"end":25436.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25423.19721875,"end":25423.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25436.967218750004,"end":25444.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25444.544093750003,"end":25446.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25446.855968750002,"end":25449.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25449.640343749998,"end":25450.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25450.82159375,"end":25461.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25454.078468749998,"end":25454.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25454.29784375,"end":25454.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25461.840968750003,"end":25462.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25462.701593750004,"end":25466.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25466.54909375,"end":25468.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25468.169093750003,"end":25470.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25470.76784375,"end":25474.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25474.96971875,"end":25491.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25491.270968750003,"end":25491.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25491.490343750003,"end":25494.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25494.342218750004,"end":25495.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25495.89471875,"end":25498.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25499.57346875,"end":25502.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25503.45471875,"end":25505.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25505.496593750002,"end":25516.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25514.085968749998,"end":25514.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25516.65096875,"end":25516.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25517.224718750003,"end":25518.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25518.65909375,"end":25519.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25520.04284375,"end":25525.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25526.01659375,"end":25526.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25526.843468749998,"end":25529.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25529.577218750004,"end":25533.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25534.03221875,"end":25535.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25535.500343749998,"end":25536.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25537.20471875,"end":25541.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25542.115343750003,"end":25542.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25543.14471875,"end":25544.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25545.10221875,"end":25546.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25546.48596875,"end":25550.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25550.552843750003,"end":25551.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25551.58221875,"end":25556.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25557.015968749998,"end":25561.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25561.89284375,"end":25564.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25565.16659375,"end":25566.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25566.820343749998,"end":25573.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25573.874093750004,"end":25574.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25575.29159375,"end":25581.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25581.53534375,"end":25584.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25585.19721875,"end":25593.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25594.05659375,"end":25627.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25599.97971875,"end":25600.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25600.030343750004,"end":25600.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25600.452218750004,"end":25600.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25600.637843750003,"end":25600.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25619.36909375,"end":25619.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25619.47034375,"end":25620.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25621.748468750004,"end":25622.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25627.215968750003,"end":25631.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25631.50221875,"end":25635.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25636.26096875,"end":25641.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25642.082843750002,"end":25644.225968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25644.310343750003,"end":25647.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25647.41534375,"end":25667.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25668.390968749998,"end":25671.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25671.512843750003,"end":25674.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25674.465968750003,"end":25677.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25677.975968750005,"end":25678.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25679.427218750003,"end":25680.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25681.09784375,"end":25681.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25682.11034375,"end":25713.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25712.755343750003,"end":25713.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25713.26159375,"end":25721.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25722.20534375,"end":25755.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25756.225343750004,"end":25758.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25758.40221875,"end":25758.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25758.975968750005,"end":25759.178468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25759.178468750004,"end":25759.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25759.43159375,"end":25759.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25759.465343750002,"end":25759.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25760.29221875,"end":25760.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25760.309093750002,"end":25762.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25762.94159375,"end":25765.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25765.35471875,"end":25765.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25766.147843750005,"end":25766.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25766.957843750002,"end":25769.100968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25769.47221875,"end":25772.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25772.661593750003,"end":25773.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25774.33221875,"end":25777.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25777.80846875,"end":25779.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25780.10346875,"end":25784.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25784.592218750004,"end":25797.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25797.29909375,"end":25797.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25797.31596875,"end":25800.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25800.606593750003,"end":25800.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25801.72034375,"end":25811.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25812.233468750004,"end":25816.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25812.351593749998,"end":25812.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25816.38471875,"end":25820.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25820.265968749998,"end":25823.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25824.19784375,"end":25826.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25833.968468749998,"end":25834.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25834.22159375,"end":25834.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25834.255343750003,"end":25834.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25839.18284375,"end":25846.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25847.687843749998,"end":25850.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25851.18096875,"end":25853.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25868.15721875,"end":25871.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25871.835968749998,"end":25873.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25878.51846875,"end":25879.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25879.210343750005,"end":25884.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25881.57284375,"end":25882.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25884.74534375,"end":25888.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25888.710968749998,"end":25889.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25889.318468750003,"end":25890.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25889.757218750005,"end":25891.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25891.427843750003,"end":25897.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25897.51971875,"end":25901.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25900.388468750003,"end":25900.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25901.51909375,"end":25907.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25910.192843750003,"end":25911.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25912.38659375,"end":25915.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25915.52534375,"end":25915.812218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25916.419718750003,"end":25920.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25920.46971875,"end":25922.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25920.48659375,"end":25920.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25922.140343749998,"end":25925.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25925.95409375,"end":25927.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25927.89471875,"end":25929.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25929.78471875,"end":25932.788468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25933.530968749998,"end":25941.225968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25941.630968750003,"end":25946.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25947.537218750003,"end":25951.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25953.79784375,"end":25956.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25956.497843750003,"end":25959.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25959.72096875,"end":25964.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25965.036593750003,"end":25966.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25966.80846875,"end":25968.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25969.154093750003,"end":25980.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25980.527843750002,"end":25984.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25984.30784375,"end":25988.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25989.35346875,"end":25991.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25992.01971875,"end":25996.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25996.76159375,"end":26000.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26000.895968750003,"end":26007.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26007.37596875,"end":26010.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26010.64971875,"end":26014.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26015.94846875,"end":26016.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26017.028468750003,"end":26018.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26018.98596875,"end":26021.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26021.922218749998,"end":26024.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26025.21284375,"end":26033.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26033.97096875,"end":26034.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26037.396593750003,"end":26043.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26044.31534375,"end":26055.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26055.08159375,"end":26055.132218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26055.132218750005,"end":26055.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26055.14909375,"end":26055.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26055.233468750004,"end":26055.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26056.66784375,"end":26064.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26064.22784375,"end":26066.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26066.89409375,"end":26067.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26068.699718750002,"end":26070.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26071.230968750002,"end":26074.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26074.960343750005,"end":26090.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26081.03534375,"end":26081.288468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26085.96284375,"end":26086.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26086.26659375,"end":26086.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26090.41784375,"end":26091.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26092.39221875,"end":26093.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26094.31596875,"end":26095.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26096.00346875,"end":26102.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26102.162843750004,"end":26103.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26103.79971875,"end":26104.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26104.96409375,"end":26105.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26106.12846875,"end":26106.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26107.07346875,"end":26114.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26114.88659375,"end":26115.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26116.35471875,"end":26119.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26119.763468750003,"end":26123.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26123.94846875,"end":26130.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26130.411593750003,"end":26130.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26130.630968750003,"end":26135.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26135.929718749998,"end":26136.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26136.115343750003,"end":26140.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26141.059718750003,"end":26141.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26141.835968749998,"end":26145.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26143.97909375,"end":26144.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":26144.974718750003,"end":26145.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26145.86909375,"end":26147.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26148.82221875,"end":26149.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26150.172218749998,"end":26157.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26153.66534375,"end":26154.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26157.78284375,"end":26159.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26159.92596875,"end":26162.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26163.942218750002,"end":26166.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26167.232843750004,"end":26170.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26171.19846875,"end":26172.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26173.459718750004,"end":26178.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26179.585343750005,"end":26194.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26194.637843750003,"end":26196.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26196.949718750002,"end":26199.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26199.56534375,"end":26201.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26204.762843750003,"end":26205.859718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26206.568468750003,"end":26208.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26208.72846875,"end":26214.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26215.07346875,"end":26218.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26219.039093749998,"end":26221.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26223.20721875,"end":26224.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26224.67534375,"end":26229.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26229.82221875,"end":26231.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26231.30721875,"end":26233.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26233.95659375,"end":26235.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26235.458468750003,"end":26235.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26236.13346875,"end":26238.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26238.765968749998,"end":26242.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26243.153468750003,"end":26243.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26244.08159375,"end":26247.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26248.334093750003,"end":26248.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26249.262218750002,"end":26250.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26250.679718749998,"end":26252.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26253.278468750003,"end":26255.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26256.29909375,"end":26256.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26257.092218750004,"end":26258.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26258.50971875,"end":26260.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26260.551593750002,"end":26261.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26262.340343750002,"end":26263.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26263.842218750004,"end":26270.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26271.216593750003,"end":26278.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26278.86096875,"end":26280.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26280.58221875,"end":26285.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26286.218468749998,"end":26288.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26290.03221875,"end":26293.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26293.896593750003,"end":26299.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26299.043468750002,"end":26299.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26299.161593750003,"end":26299.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26299.24596875,"end":26299.397843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26299.53284375,"end":26301.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26302.82346875,"end":26304.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26304.61221875,"end":26310.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26311.919093750003,"end":26312.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26313.65721875,"end":26316.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26316.20534375,"end":26322.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26322.65159375,"end":26324.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26325.30096875,"end":26325.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26326.887218750002,"end":26327.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26329.350968750005,"end":26332.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26332.64159375,"end":26337.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26337.29909375,"end":26338.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26339.52659375,"end":26340.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26341.484093749998,"end":26342.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26343.981593750003,"end":26345.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26347.33971875,"end":26349.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26349.381593750004,"end":26350.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26350.832843750002,"end":26355.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26355.52409375,"end":26356.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26357.46471875,"end":26363.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26363.607218750003,"end":26364.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26364.788468750005,"end":26373.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26373.968468749998,"end":26379.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26379.99284375,"end":26380.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26380.33034375,"end":26381.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26382.051593750002,"end":26388.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26388.379718750002,"end":26389.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26390.168468750002,"end":26395.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26395.50096875,"end":26398.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26399.71971875,"end":26408.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26408.91659375,"end":26409.203468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26409.389093750004,"end":26413.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26412.983468750004,"end":26414.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26414.60346875,"end":26416.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26416.94909375,"end":26435.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26427.56346875,"end":26427.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26427.749093750004,"end":26428.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26434.060343750003,"end":26435.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26436.32159375,"end":26437.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26436.87846875,"end":26437.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26437.16534375,"end":26437.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26438.937218749998,"end":26440.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26441.232218750003,"end":26443.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26442.902843750002,"end":26443.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26443.324718750002,"end":26453.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26443.61159375,"end":26445.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26450.648468749998,"end":26451.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26454.107843750004,"end":26457.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26457.668468750002,"end":26459.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26459.474093750003,"end":26466.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26467.000343749998,"end":26489.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26490.23721875,"end":26497.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26496.902843750002,"end":26504.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26505.171593749998,"end":26514.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26514.756593750004,"end":26516.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26516.29221875,"end":26531.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26532.255968750003,"end":26534.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26534.466593750003,"end":26538.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26538.719093749998,"end":26540.710343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26541.317843750003,"end":26546.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26546.920343750004,"end":26548.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26549.48534375,"end":26552.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26552.505968750003,"end":26556.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26556.87659375,"end":26557.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26557.450343750003,"end":26558.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26558.59784375,"end":26559.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26559.50909375,"end":26560.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26559.52596875,"end":26561.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26560.89284375,"end":26565.499718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26566.647218750004,"end":26578.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26579.26971875,"end":26580.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26580.82221875,"end":26581.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26582.08784375,"end":26582.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26582.81346875,"end":26595.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26595.672218749998,"end":26598.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26599.30034375,"end":26599.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26599.38471875,"end":26599.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26599.553468750004,"end":26599.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26599.58721875,"end":26599.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26599.755968750003,"end":26601.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26601.47721875,"end":26603.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26604.36284375,"end":26604.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26605.62846875,"end":26607.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26607.82221875,"end":26609.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26609.577218750004,"end":26610.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26610.58971875,"end":26611.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26611.75409375,"end":26613.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26614.38659375,"end":26615.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26616.56346875,"end":26619.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26620.37721875,"end":26621.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26621.355968750002,"end":26627.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26627.700968750003,"end":26633.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26634.045968750004,"end":26636.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26636.982218750003,"end":26638.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26638.50096875,"end":26641.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26641.48784375,"end":26643.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26644.879718750002,"end":26650.718468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26651.08971875,"end":26662.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26663.577218750004,"end":26666.007218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26666.513468750003,"end":26679.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26680.26659375,"end":26691.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26691.302843750003,"end":26692.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26692.09596875,"end":26692.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26692.21409375,"end":26699.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26699.80784375,"end":26708.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26709.038468750005,"end":26718.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26716.78409375,"end":26717.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26717.18909375,"end":26717.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26718.960968749998,"end":26720.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26720.952218750004,"end":26728.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26728.562843749998,"end":26731.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26731.364093750002,"end":26735.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26735.43096875,"end":26736.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26736.49409375,"end":26737.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26738.046593749998,"end":26741.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26741.421593749998,"end":26743.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26743.429718749998,"end":26745.741593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26745.809093750002,"end":26755.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":26755.71471875,"end":26773.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26764.185968750004,"end":26764.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26764.23659375,"end":26765.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26773.467218750004,"end":26773.905968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26829.593468749998,"end":26831.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26832.81659375,"end":26833.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26833.812218749998,"end":26836.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26837.42346875,"end":26839.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26840.15721875,"end":26841.507218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26841.86159375,"end":26843.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26844.561593750004,"end":26846.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26847.092843750004,"end":26849.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26850.484718749998,"end":26851.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26851.56471875,"end":26853.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26854.82159375,"end":26856.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26864.20409375,"end":26865.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26864.507843749998,"end":26865.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26866.262843750003,"end":26868.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26872.97909375,"end":26873.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26874.02534375,"end":26885.905343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26886.209093750003,"end":26888.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26888.06534375,"end":26888.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26888.132843749998,"end":26888.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26888.26784375,"end":26888.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26888.90909375,"end":26892.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26894.89971875,"end":26897.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26898.359093749998,"end":26910.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26910.576593750004,"end":26936.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":26933.91471875,"end":26933.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26933.93159375,"end":26934.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26934.99471875,"end":26941.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26938.89284375,"end":26939.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26940.023468749998,"end":26940.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26942.57159375,"end":26946.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26945.609093749998,"end":26946.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26946.840968750003,"end":26948.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26948.83221875,"end":26958.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26958.83909375,"end":26978.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26978.97096875,"end":26979.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26980.607843750004,"end":27028.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27028.364093750002,"end":27048.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27048.428468750004,"end":27048.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27048.68159375,"end":27059.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27059.835968749998,"end":27062.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27062.94096875,"end":27065.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27065.69159375,"end":27068.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27069.23534375,"end":27071.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27072.30659375,"end":27078.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27078.567218750002,"end":27080.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27080.20409375,"end":27081.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27080.406593749998,"end":27098.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27092.809718750003,"end":27094.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27099.32346875,"end":27099.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27099.340343750002,"end":27107.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27108.50346875,"end":27111.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27112.418468750002,"end":27115.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27115.928468750004,"end":27119.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27119.99534375,"end":27134.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27131.90909375,"end":27137.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27136.76909375,"end":27166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27167.76846875,"end":27168.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27168.73034375,"end":27170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27171.953468749998,"end":27172.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27173.11784375,"end":27175.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27175.36221875,"end":27180.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27180.812843749998,"end":27187.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27184.710968749998,"end":27185.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27185.60534375,"end":27186.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27186.921593749998,"end":27193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27193.857218750003,"end":27212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27211.64346875,"end":27235.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27220.60409375,"end":27220.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27220.975343750004,"end":27222.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27226.71284375,"end":27231.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27231.65721875,"end":27231.741593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27233.17596875,"end":27233.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27235.825343750003,"end":27245.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27245.984093749998,"end":27252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27252.210968749998,"end":27261.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27262.47096875,"end":27271.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27262.960343750005,"end":27266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27266.875343749998,"end":27276.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27273.169718750003,"end":27286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27281.77596875,"end":27282.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27282.788468750005,"end":27284.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27284.94846875,"end":27312.319718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27286.163468750005,"end":27286.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27287.918468750002,"end":27289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27289.55534375,"end":27290.804093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27307.763468750003,"end":27310.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27312.404093750003,"end":27327.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27327.74346875,"end":27329.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27329.43096875,"end":27330.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27330.79784375,"end":27332.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27332.535968750002,"end":27333.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27333.97034375,"end":27336.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27337.007843749998,"end":27353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27338.74596875,"end":27339.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27340.230968750002,"end":27342.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27354.87846875,"end":27401.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27401.335343750005,"end":27403.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27403.49534375,"end":27406.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27405.40221875,"end":27405.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27405.419093750003,"end":27429.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27415.59471875,"end":27416.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27416.97846875,"end":27417.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27417.029093750003,"end":27418.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27430.005968750003,"end":27433.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27431.52471875,"end":27438.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27435.692843750003,"end":27436.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27436.671593749998,"end":27437.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27437.97096875,"end":27438.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27438.49409375,"end":27449.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27441.497843750003,"end":27442.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27444.012218750002,"end":27444.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27446.81346875,"end":27463.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27450.54284375,"end":27453.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27462.372218750003,"end":27463.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27463.08096875,"end":27463.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27463.114718750003,"end":27464.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27464.00909375,"end":27490.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27464.02596875,"end":27464.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27464.14409375,"end":27466.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27470.45534375,"end":27470.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27474.47159375,"end":27475.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27489.473468750002,"end":27497.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27497.03346875,"end":27498.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27497.708468750003,"end":27497.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27497.79284375,"end":27499.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27499.092218750004,"end":27508.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27502.146593750003,"end":27502.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27506.97284375,"end":27529.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27529.93971875,"end":27532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27532.03221875,"end":27532.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27532.97721875,"end":27534.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27535.035968750002,"end":27538.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27537.702218750004,"end":27542.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27542.59596875,"end":27556.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27556.804718749998,"end":27564.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27564.53346875,"end":27564.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27564.93846875,"end":27564.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27564.97221875,"end":27574.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27571.755968750003,"end":27577.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27576.66659375,"end":27576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27576.86909375,"end":27576.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27576.902843750002,"end":27576.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27576.936593750004,"end":27577.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27577.020968750003,"end":27577.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27577.93221875,"end":27586.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27578.03346875,"end":27580.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27580.96971875,"end":27581.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27583.60221875,"end":27583.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27583.63596875,"end":27585.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27585.08721875,"end":27585.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27585.50909375,"end":27588.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27588.107843750004,"end":27588.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27588.14159375,"end":27588.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27588.39471875,"end":27589.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27588.934718750003,"end":27588.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27588.968468749998,"end":27589.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27589.356593750003,"end":27590.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27589.96409375,"end":27602.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27602.60346875,"end":27614.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27614.348468750002,"end":27615.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27614.365343750003,"end":27614.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27615.006593750004,"end":27615.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27615.951593750004,"end":27616.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27616.052843750003,"end":27616.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27616.154093750003,"end":27616.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27616.72784375,"end":27638.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27628.33784375,"end":27628.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27630.46409375,"end":27630.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27630.480968750002,"end":27630.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27630.98721875,"end":27631.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27635.020343750002,"end":27635.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27635.965343750002,"end":27636.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27638.310968750004,"end":27654.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27638.37846875,"end":27638.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27638.496593750002,"end":27638.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27645.95534375,"end":27669.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27654.966593750003,"end":27656.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27656.029718750004,"end":27659.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27659.35409375,"end":27661.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27668.888468750003,"end":27681.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27674.474093750003,"end":27674.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27674.490968750004,"end":27674.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27677.61284375,"end":27696.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27696.023468749998,"end":27697.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27697.94721875,"end":27697.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27698.50409375,"end":27704.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27704.59596875,"end":27715.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27715.834718750004,"end":27718.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27718.551593750002,"end":27719.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27718.568468750003,"end":27718.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27719.429093750005,"end":27735.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27725.655968750005,"end":27726.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27726.85409375,"end":27727.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27736.23659375,"end":27738.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27738.936593750004,"end":27763.202843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27763.54034375,"end":27766.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27767.26971875,"end":27770.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27770.30721875,"end":27770.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27770.84721875,"end":27770.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27770.93159375,"end":27771.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27771.75846875,"end":27774.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":27772.028468750003,"end":27773.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":27774.93096875,"end":27777.968468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27781.78221875,"end":27785.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27786.77721875,"end":27787.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27788.279093750003,"end":27790.725968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27791.468468750005,"end":27794.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27795.332843750002,"end":27800.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27800.27721875,"end":27801.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27801.71159375,"end":27804.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27804.225968750005,"end":27808.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27809.288468750005,"end":27811.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27811.718468750005,"end":27815.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27816.662843750004,"end":27818.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27819.46409375,"end":27821.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27821.303468750004,"end":27823.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27824.61096875,"end":27825.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27830.888468750003,"end":27834.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27834.887843750003,"end":27836.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27837.030968750005,"end":27839.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27839.646593750003,"end":27845.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27845.957843750002,"end":27847.999718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27848.37096875,"end":27850.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27850.88534375,"end":27859.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27860.031593749998,"end":27863.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27863.811593750004,"end":27866.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27866.207843750002,"end":27868.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27868.334093750003,"end":27869.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27869.312843749998,"end":27871.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27872.451593750004,"end":27873.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27873.632843749998,"end":27885.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27885.344093749998,"end":27886.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27887.04846875,"end":27887.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27887.841593750003,"end":27889.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27889.39409375,"end":27892.178468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27892.87034375,"end":27897.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27898.185968750004,"end":27898.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27899.72159375,"end":27904.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27904.66596875,"end":27906.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27906.420968750004,"end":27909.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27909.64409375,"end":27912.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27912.833468750003,"end":27916.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27916.647218750004,"end":27920.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27921.169718750003,"end":27926.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27927.14346875,"end":27930.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27930.248468750004,"end":27930.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27930.771593750003,"end":27935.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27935.69909375,"end":27940.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27940.66034375,"end":27942.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27943.140968749998,"end":27946.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27946.785968750002,"end":27951.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27952.523468749998,"end":27956.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27957.012218750002,"end":27959.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27959.560343750003,"end":27961.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27961.129718750002,"end":27968.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27968.48721875,"end":27971.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27971.84534375,"end":27979.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27979.405343750004,"end":27985.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27991.97721875,"end":27992.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28001.69721875,"end":28007.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28008.210968749998,"end":28008.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28009.375343749998,"end":28018.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28018.335968749998,"end":28018.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28018.97721875,"end":28024.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28025.170343750004,"end":28028.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28028.629718750002,"end":28041.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28042.669718750003,"end":28042.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28043.091593750003,"end":28048.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28049.217218750004,"end":28050.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28050.83721875,"end":28053.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28053.857843750004,"end":28057.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28057.80659375,"end":28059.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28060.101593749998,"end":28060.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28061.670968750004,"end":28063.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28064.33721875,"end":28064.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28065.248468750004,"end":28066.750343749998}],"whisperx":[{"start":1273.937,"end":1301.508,"text":"報告委員會先來繼續開會。先處理朝野協商結論。請議事人員宣讀。議法院黨團協商結論時間113年3月25日星期一下午30時30分決定事項一各黨團同意4月2日星期二邀請審計部審計長列席報告111年度中央政府總決算審核報告中央政府前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":1302.977,"end":1314.665,"text":"計畫第三期特別決算審核報告。中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告等案審核經過並被諮詢。諮詢人數由國民黨黨團推派7人,民進黨黨團推派7人,"},{"start":1319.449,"end":1346.55,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團推敗一人進行。諮詢順序屹立授權議事處辦理。明單請於4月1日星期一中午12時前送至議事處會證。議案詢答完畢後即交審查。各黨團同意不提出復議。主持人韓國瑜、江啟臣。協商代表傅根齊、洪孟凱、林思明。科建名務施由莊瑞雄、黃國昌、黃珊珊、吳春成。宣讀完畢。請問委員會對以上朝野黨團協商結論有無異議。"},{"start":1349.844,"end":1375.59,"text":"無疑通過報告委員會現在對行政院院長我宣告一下,今決定如下各黨團同意4月2日星期二邀請審計部審計長列席報告111年度中央政府總預算審核報告中央政府前瞻基礎建設第三期特別決算審核報告"},{"start":1376.929,"end":1392.015,"text":"中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困症心特別決算審核報告等案審核並被諮詢。諮詢人數由國民黨團推派7人、民進黨團推派7人、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行。"},{"start":1401.863,"end":1424.934,"text":"諮詢順序一例授權議事處辦理。明單請於4月1日星期一中午12時前送至議事處會診。議案詢答完畢後,即交審查。各黨團同意,不提出複議。報告委員會現在對行政院院長施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。"},{"start":1427.248,"end":1431.151,"text":"今天進行司法及法治組織質詢。請吳委員、鍾憲質詢。麻煩陳院長、法務部長備詢。吳委員長。"},{"start":1457.588,"end":1466.056,"text":"院長部長早安早那我現在要跟兩位就教的部分就是有關維護校園安全以及"},{"start":1467.745,"end":1494.752,"text":"校園的一些狀況,一些部分我們來討論一下我們第一個看到就從111年每10萬名12歲到24歲的青少年犯罪人口比例跟107年比起來其實增加了22.7%也就是說很明顯這個青少年的這個問題一直在上升那像院長您的社會流行病學也有提到這個社會治病因子"},{"start":1495.672,"end":1499.375,"text":"所以我今天要質詢的問題是說法務部現在是身為最高的司法行政機關那就這個部分你們有全國最好的偵查資源"},{"start":1520.154,"end":1535.731,"text":"而貴部的檢察官也是偵查主體那就源頭的打擊就是有關那個黑幫我們要怎麼樣讓他不進入校園以及就末端的補救也就是矯正的教育這個部分我想您簡單的說一下有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":1536.768,"end":1536.888,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":1556.062,"end":1559.863,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是對於少年入黑幫的這個事情我們在法制上組織犯罪防制條例"},{"start":1577.507,"end":1597.806,"text":"有確實有一個明文規定就是招募青少年進入幫派的話我們現在有一個特別的處罰規定那至於少年如果犯了罪以後是要先由少年法庭他們來做先意先意完了以後認為有必要再做刑事的訴罪才會送到我們檢察官來偵查"},{"start":1599.928,"end":1623.159,"text":"至於如果判了要入監的時候我們的矯正學校也有一個通盤的一個完整的一個矯正的教育讓他們在回歸社會的時候是要繼續就學還是就業都有一個完善的配套部長其實我跟你們說一下就是說為什麼上一次割喉案之後社會上面又開始在炒這個死刑的議題"},{"start":1624.379,"end":1645.384,"text":"實質上你說民眾會不會想要剝奪一個人的生命我想大家都不會想但是很多時候大家在炒這個死刑為什麼超過八成的民眾希望死刑的執行就是因為其實很多時候是對於這個社會安全網已經破洞了大家為了掩蓋心中的恐懼當然他有可能是為死者感到那個捨不得"},{"start":1646.084,"end":1663.689,"text":"因為這樣所以大家才會回過頭來一直去爭執這個死刑到底存廢的問題那因為我看到就是從1月9號到現在像部長你那邊其實一直發的新聞稿就是這個死刑執行規則不是你部長改的對不對你是依照以前的那個那個辦那個什麼"},{"start":1664.329,"end":1664.489,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":1689.861,"end":1690.001,"text":"這我知道齁"},{"start":1710.277,"end":1732.749,"text":"那我是希望啦部裡面因為在去年底到今年其實我們有很多這個部裡面其實一直有在談一個就是反滲透法還有這個認知作戰那我的意思是這樣當然那些東西不是不能做而是當我們把非常多的力氣讓部長總長都一直出來講這個反滲透法這個然後要檢察官一定要辦"},{"start":1734.432,"end":1758.506,"text":"結果呢傳了這麼多人我們花了那麼多力氣那到底價值在哪裡將來我一定會盯這個點就是當年傳喚的人數跟最後判決確定的人數的那個比例我會把這個呈現出來給全國的國人那我覺得與其花力氣在這些東西上面不如我們來回過頭去想怎麼樣讓人民安居樂業到底我們怎麼樣讓家長能夠安心的送小孩子到學校"},{"start":1759.482,"end":1785.825,"text":"好那還有就是我們也要去思考小朋友到這些矯正學校會不會越關越大尾所以說為什麼青少年他那個旋轉門效應很嚴重就進去出來進去出來一直很嚴重這個我們都要去思考到底有了什麼問題那尤其是之前那個割喉案之後這個我們從這個個案發現其實矯正機關出來是不是有無法回歸社會那這一塊也麻煩"},{"start":1786.787,"end":1804.869,"text":"部長您這邊能夠用用心然後我們去弄清楚我們的矯正系統到底出了什麼狀況跟委員說明一下就是原來是少年府醫院我們現在改為矯正學校用學校的學校化的方式來教育這些青少年"},{"start":1806.653,"end":1834.371,"text":"再來我就提醒一下因為現在短影音變成是黑幫的這個推手以前要去什麼撞球場去電動玩具店找吸收小朋友現在不用現在都是用那個影音嘛所以可能滿院長您也要這個跨部會之間要怎麼樣的合作因為他們吸收新的未成年人的方式已經變了那我們也要去改變要因應這個改變的部分不要讓學校變成是幫派人力的人力銀行"},{"start":1837.537,"end":1859.674,"text":"這個部分我們有請教育部、內政部跟保護部一起來努力我們就是就事論事再來我們來談論一個就剛剛部長所說的死刑的部分死刑到底要不要執行當然我想請教部長就是當外界都一直在說你那個死刑執行規則第二條"},{"start":1861.442,"end":1862.503,"text":"來我們看一下齁"},{"start":1891.104,"end":1918.996,"text":"審核執行案件執行實施要點第二條以及執行執行規則的第二條來你看一下94年的施要點有一個但書就是說如果無理由或者是不受理而被駁回用同意原因在申請者不在此限也就是說如果他今天是用這些理由而被駁回的申請事項這個不在此限也就是要執行好那我們再回過頭來看您的"},{"start":1920.615,"end":1936.178,"text":"實行執行規則的第二條卻漏掉了這個但書那我們都知道立法者如果新法舊法新法的部分如果舊法很多東西沒有過渡到新法也就是說他有意為之的讓這個部分就不需要再去審酌了"},{"start":1937.571,"end":1956.041,"text":"我講這點非常的清楚嘛那這個會導致什麼我們都很我們都知道就法的時代如果你申請釋憲可是你用被大法官用無理由或不受理駁回你再申請的話依照以前的實施要點就這我不會甩你我們就執行但是到"},{"start":1956.561,"end":1957.001,"text":"公務委員說明一下"},{"start":1977.138,"end":1997.869,"text":"這個實施要點跟規則同時是並行都是存在的所以即使實行死刑規則沒有規定但是實行要點仍然在仍然要遵守那這樣子那不是跌床駕屋嗎有同一個行為有同一件事情兩個東西在規範那如果照部長您這樣講的是對的話那我們幹嘛要從實施要點進到規則"},{"start":2001.159,"end":2027.432,"text":"因為要讓他一次所以那你規則是不是說規則有定了你要點已經有那如果照你這樣講我還有規則存在那你要點就不用定啊那不是我就剛講的跌床架屋還是部長你願不願意承諾就實行執行規則第二條的這個部分請你把當初實施要點的但書把它加回去因為這個部分是法務部就可以做了"},{"start":2028.352,"end":2043.574,"text":"我們非常願意而且這個我們也同時在進行當中了因為他是不是同一個原因在我們送給市縣的大法官的時候我們都已經有看過所以目前的都不是相同的理由提出的所以我第一個說明"},{"start":2044.235,"end":2072.726,"text":"第二個說明就是說,即使是同一個理由,憲法法院也可以駁回。駁回的話,這個事件的案子就結束了,我們就可以執行了。申請到駁回還有一個時間。那你也沒有規範說他不可以重複申請。申請到駁回這個時間,他就一直跟你玩這個。所以,我建議你還是要回去趕快把這個規則稍微改一下。好不好,這部裡面就可以做這個決定了,不需要我們再經過這個立法院刪讀。好,那再來我想提一個東西。"},{"start":2074.636,"end":2089.374,"text":"如果這個時事廢質下法務部都沒有什麼處理的話我還是建議是不是我們要爭略無期徒刑不得假釋的這個東西出來讓將來法官在無期徒刑得假釋跟不得假釋他有一個選擇的空間"},{"start":2091.074,"end":2115.869,"text":"這是實體法的部分,布裡面是不是可以考量這個地方?是,我們都會考量。不管死刑的規定將來如何的釋憲結果,我們都有充分的準備。那部長這個不能跟我說用延誼喔,因為部長說過很多延誼嘛,很多次延誼。因為延誼這個東西對我以前我在代法治局的同仁來說,延誼的話就是同仁已經積極的在處理了。"},{"start":2116.329,"end":2128.274,"text":"所以這一塊要麻煩部長我們趕快不管廢不廢死至少找一個能夠替代的東西出來將來萬一有一天真的廢死的話我們才來得及去因應"},{"start":2130.083,"end":2157.509,"text":"最後我那個割喉案那個死者的父母養爸爸養媽媽來找過我那我也蠻感動那像部長你是愛家人嘛這個在檢察界非常有名氣愛家人愛小孩我們都很知道所以一定也能夠體會家族這種失去愛子的那種痛苦那我在那邊我把那個死者的父親養爸爸養媽媽給我的一個聲明我唸出來"},{"start":2159.464,"end":2187.634,"text":"難道使者因為不能為自己說話就該白白冤死嗎?我們的孩子的生命正要展開最美的人生時,卻無辜被責任。難道兇手就可以再被所謂的人權保障?如此,請人權團體還給我孩子的生命權,那我就不用再糾結了。兇手在審兇時兇殘自己,也沒有留給我兒子一點生的機會。"},{"start":2189.11,"end":2215.769,"text":"法律本該捍衛生命安全,而非來問我們要不要有死刑。難道法律要自白律法已死,人命不值錢嗎?請不要為了少數人的人權而損害大眾的生命安全。部長這個是家屬、楊爸楊媽媽寫給我的,我看了我也很難過。那部長您是我們中華民國死刑執行命令的簽署權人。"},{"start":2216.749,"end":2234.138,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2234.889,"end":2239.733,"text":"我個人執行過兩件事情所以我並不會因為我個人的因素我完全是依照法律的規定來執行如果所有的救濟程序都已經完畢的話我們該執行就執行"},{"start":2260.589,"end":2262.83,"text":"人權的保障加害人跟被害人是在天平是要平衡的"},{"start":2283.877,"end":2306.469,"text":"如果嚴重的向加害人傾斜,你、我、我們都不應該向這樣子的環境、這樣子的人權團體、錯誤的人權團體低頭。我們絕對不能低頭。部長,你跟我都是檢察官出身的啦。那我們對於維護社會治安還有人民安居樂業,我們當年都有那種無可救藥的熱情。我想部長一定也是這樣。"},{"start":2308.68,"end":2328.705,"text":"只有檢察官能夠為被害人申冤也只有檢察官總是站在被害人那一邊不是站在加害人那一側所以檢察官要為公平正義在奮鬥絕對不能為那個政治服務部長一定能夠理解那我也希望說我們彼此都本這個一本初衷堅持原則然後打擊這些"},{"start":2329.565,"end":2330.085,"text":"謝謝吳委員、鍾憲仁的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報議會"},{"start":2354.452,"end":2364.984,"text":"施法及法治組織質詢已詢答完畢。休息5分鐘。休息之後,我們進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":2712.267,"end":2715.916,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會,進行社會福利及衛生環境組織質詢。接下來我們請廖委員為詳質詢。"},{"start":2737.793,"end":2744.023,"text":"院長好,有請我們行政院院長陳院長以及我們的薛瑞元學部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢,謝謝院長早安院長早"},{"start":2757.196,"end":2779.361,"text":"委員長部長這個健保開辦以來28年有極高的這個民意支持度但是現在在這個高支持度的背後我們卻看到是有我們血汗醫護所支撐甚至現在已經向下影響到整個醫療教育以及我們包含我們醫師公會理事長也說現在有很多學生看到我們醫療環境不佳影響選擇醫學系的意願"},{"start":2781.201,"end":2807.44,"text":"那包含我們統策衛生護理類報告也從2019年開始更是年年降低更是加劇了我們護理人員的人員荒那事實上現在在醫療現場前幾年的這個擊中南海然後內外婦兒無一不缺護理人力也流失嚴重導致醫院有病床卻也無法開許多病人就只能夠塞在急診室一待好幾天"},{"start":2808.24,"end":2812.372,"text":"所以想要請教院長部長我們的醫護人力荒有解嗎?"},{"start":2813.803,"end":2815.743,"text":"院長除了缺人和缺藥但是還有缺藥"},{"start":2840.109,"end":2860.797,"text":"那缺藥的因素也有很多,在生產端包含我們的原料藥的來源供應不急,還有供應鏈不穩定,製造品質或法規要求的改變,以及藥商的這個商業考量,更別說這個復型劑、膠囊殼甚至是物流因素等等都有可能造成缺藥,所以一顆小小的藥丸或是膠囊,它的產品鏈非常的長。"},{"start":2861.485,"end":2883.048,"text":"只要有一個小環節出狀況就容易造成缺藥另外在需求面也包括我們的庫存量的管理不佳突然增加的需求跟季節需求因素等也會造成缺藥所以缺藥的因素不一而足但是缺藥也有分短期缺藥跟長期缺藥那短期缺藥是可以透過很多手段解決但是如果是長期缺藥的話就要特別小心了"},{"start":2883.468,"end":2908.768,"text":"所以我想問院長您同意這樣的看法嗎?我覺得這個缺藥的問題確實是需要來很慎重的來解決。是,謝謝,謝謝院長。但是衛福部也很用很大的心力來調整。院長、部長,所以面對缺藥問題我之前有在委員會有做出決議,包含說同時符合三個條件下,藥價就可以這個排除在每年藥價調整之外或不受藥價調整影響。"},{"start":2910.185,"end":2936.727,"text":"那這三個條件分別是臨床上有需求也就是必須經過醫學會認證或者是藥事法第27之2條的必要的藥品清單中的藥品。第二個是鼓勵在地製造是希望可以穩定我們的供應鏈。那第三個就是三張以下的稀缺藥證。那院長這部分涉及修法請問4月中之前能否將此三項條件納入修法中的內容之中。"},{"start":2938.254,"end":2959.353,"text":"這一個部分我請衛福部來回答跟委員報告那委員所提出來這三個條件除了第一個那個醫學會認證因為我們在列這一個必要藥品的品項的時候都有跟醫學會這邊邀請他們確認過啦所以不一定需要再去寫一個說醫學會認證其他這三個部分的話我們都聲表贊同"},{"start":2964.816,"end":2988.808,"text":"現在是4月8日我們會召集相關的團體會做一個考量然後會送到健保的共理會議去所以4月底之前要完成這個所謂的規定的修改的話有一點點困難但是在上半年應該是沒有問題是好那請這個部長也盡快的加速進行"},{"start":2989.648,"end":3002.116,"text":"那我的條件之一是要釋法的二期之二的必要藥品清單嘛那既然是必要藥品代表這些藥品是不可或缺的目前總共是400多項但是院長你們知道這份清單多久才檢討一次嗎?"},{"start":3003.666,"end":3024.778,"text":"院長這個從食藥署的網頁依照我們公告的資料最近一次是去年的11月可是再上一次間隔了三年兩個月那在之前大概是平均約兩年所以院長部長既然是必要的藥品清單為何不能夠每年檢討一次尤其是現在的狀況之下因為現在國際上的供應鏈也仍然沒有很穩定"},{"start":3025.578,"end":3046.684,"text":"所以我的具體建議本期的具體建議是說有沒有可能改成每年檢討一次同時也在4月中之前或者是當然您剛有說時間時程上的部分可不可以提早的這個完成這個修法的預告作業如果是每年檢討應該是可行的那我們盡量來朝這個方向來做好謝謝"},{"start":3050.194,"end":3058.671,"text":"院長、部長,我們醫療的價值要等於我們醫療的品質也要等於我們醫療的點值這樣的理念您認同嗎?"},{"start":3060.23,"end":3079.838,"text":"最後一個健保的是不是等於健保點值因為我們現在是在總額預算的制度下去運作所以這個加量的關係所以是院長但是健保的點值長年以來一直被貶值造成現在醫療的困境醫療體系的困境那所以我們醫界為了生存"},{"start":3081.056,"end":3095.689,"text":"過去常常大家聽到的這個藥價差啦發展自費藥材啦或者是最近的解除掛號費上限等等都是我想這都是一介自救的手段但也因為如此我想整個醫療體系也會越來越扭曲病患也不滿意"},{"start":3096.63,"end":3118.328,"text":"所以院長你知道嗎醫療院所其實也不想這樣做但是這是為了生存也只能這麼做所以院長部長健保點值的這個老問題我想整個醫療體系不死不活那連我們台大院長都說醫療本業的利潤剩下1%如果他是企業的CEO他老早就被開除了請問院長你們現在還要調漲電價你認為台大吳院長所說的1%的利潤還有可能嗎"},{"start":3124.827,"end":3151.497,"text":"我想這個電價的調整如何來影響臺大醫院的營運我們需要再來評估電費所佔的百分比是多少但是呢我想我們依借大家所提出來的這些意見我們都會來作為檢討可是很重要的不要忘掉我們臺灣的健保還是在美國人心目中是很好的一個製度要多方來考量"},{"start":3151.937,"end":3163.096,"text":"是,院長因為醫院裡面的急診加護病房一般病房的空調也是不能夠中斷的難不成醫院因為電價太高就要把它關掉嗎?當然不會嘛,也不應該所以我們要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草"},{"start":3164.039,"end":3183.367,"text":"我們是覺得這樣不太合理所以院長像現在臺灣醫院協會醫事公會的全聯會護理師公會的全聯會還有我們臺灣私立醫院協會醫務管理學會等五大醫事團體聯合發出聲明欲請不要調漲醫療院所的電價請問院長你們可以答應嗎"},{"start":3184.668,"end":3207.657,"text":"院長下星期一就是4月1日這個調漲電價日所以我們希望本席希望本週五前是否可以給醫界一個答覆好嗎?這一個部分的話我們要來了解剛才我講過醫療院所的電費占他所有經營的這個百分比是多少我舉一個很簡單的例子比如說臺北捷運的話那我們調漲電價實際上對他的成本只影響1%"},{"start":3209.378,"end":3210.478,"text":"院長所以這個部分也要請你特別用心喔"},{"start":3235.126,"end":3249.769,"text":"因為要請您特別留意或是更加的嚴議因為你們的經濟部講出來今天也承認說他的這個沒有考量到這個烘焙機這個烘焙機的這個成本所以你們講出那個兩塊錢真的是瞎扯的"},{"start":3250.33,"end":3252.972,"text":"院長再來健保制度的運作讓政府現在的醫療政策上只能夠頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":3271.55,"end":3290.866,"text":"那也因為這樣所以我說現在的健保可能有三苦病人痛苦家屬辛苦那醫護命苦但是最根本的性的問題也是剛剛在講的長期以來這個健保點值的問題因為總而上限的問題造成許多醫院必須到處挖東牆補西牆那院長部長這個你們同意嗎"},{"start":3292.008,"end":3294.569,"text":"但是現在是血汗醫護的問題沒有院長我要跟您討論的是血汗醫護的問題"},{"start":3322.221,"end":3346.086,"text":"我要告訴你一個數據這兩年的健保浮動點值曾一度掉到0.8元以下但我們要說實際也有可能比這個更慘因為總額之下還有一個分區總額所以健保署的各分區業務組會跟他那個區域的各層級的醫院訂定一個目標額所以醫院也會想辦法可能會想辦法減少病患的就診數這就是所謂醫界裡面有在講的斷頭現象"},{"start":3348.126,"end":3369.414,"text":"所以實際的醫療服務量是可能根本沒有申報這也就是醫院為什麼抱怨說做得越多領得越少或者是虧得越多院長跟共健保制度當然是知識體大所以必須要做好社會溝通才能夠在最少的阻力之下進行改革但是現在醫護人力短缺等問題加上又要調漲電價所以這個醫療體系崩潰在"},{"start":3372.515,"end":3398.156,"text":"我已經在上週正式提出這個健全醫療發展特別條例是希望幫我們臺灣的醫療打強心針那這裡面最核心的也就是資本條例及本條例所編之特別預算通過後格計現保各分區各部門之總額浮動點值平均為打0.95元者應補足至0.95元基本上也就是希望保障點值最基本要0.95元"},{"start":3399.638,"end":3402.448,"text":"那這個部分也是要呼應我們一屆的主張"},{"start":3404.315,"end":3432.917,"text":"那另外要解決我們護理人力不足的部分我是針對地區級以上的醫院執行這個急性病床以及特殊病床照護的護理人員每月發給1萬元的津貼而且要撥補100億成立這個新藥發展基金這三個面向基本上是希望能夠幫助解決整個醫療體系現在的困境希望請問院長你們同意嗎部長同意嗎我覺得你完全不懂什麼叫做"},{"start":3434.258,"end":3459.612,"text":"建保的點子本來就是在建保整個的財務的運作裡面行之多年你這樣的情形有點外行我請我們部長回答這個特別條例要去保障點子是跟我們建保法裡面的總額預算的整個的制度是互相焊隔的所以如果萬一這一個特別條例通過的話"},{"start":3460.987,"end":3479.059,"text":"那實務上面怎麼樣去運用兩個不同的制度互相之間打架,這會產生很大的問題。是,部長我想跟你說的是健全醫療法案特別條例其實只有三年了,並且總額是3800億,我的想法是在不動總額的前提下,另外用這三年不動的總額來補貼。3800億是否是一個常識性的,"},{"start":3485.643,"end":3500.874,"text":"那這個常識性的是公務預算公務預算怎麼用到健保的這個要怎麼樣算這個知識體大而且是否都能夠每年有這樣子所謂的3800億這個是非常非常有問題"},{"start":3502.054,"end":3509.819,"text":"委員你一定要請教專家更深入了解這一個所有健保的財務才能夠做很好的條例啦。但是在溝通的時候除了醫療團體以外還有病人團體消費者團體還有學者專家通通要來考慮期望不要只針對單一的團體"},{"start":3525.367,"end":3527.748,"text":"也請這個院長部長先針對這個健保電點值常常在浮動的這個狀況我剛剛提出的其實不只是不只是這個部分點值就是會浮動"},{"start":3552.526,"end":3572.163,"text":"對,但是他們現在需要的是,是院長,因為我要跟你算的事情是這樣子啊,在疫情前平均是0.92的情況之下,大多數的一個層級的醫療院所,他們的獲利大概不到是5%,那其實他們對他們來講也很痛苦,在很多情況之下他也很難流財攬財,甚至也不敢做到這個醫療發展的部分喔。"},{"start":3572.583,"end":3601.309,"text":"所以這個部分是我希望說可以跟透過這樣子的聲音讓院長跟部長就是可以了解到有這個這樣的狀況然後也希望說有這樣的這樣子的特別條例也希望行政院如果你們有更好的版本如果你們可以提出來解決這樣的問題的話那本席也會支持喔所以我希望的是這件事情要讓院長部長請你們好好的去理解最後我也想花一點時間跟院長快問快答一下台中人口有多少"},{"start":3603.015,"end":3622.881,"text":"台中人口大概200多萬吧。284萬那高雄人口有多少?這裡你已經有答案了。273萬那高雄前瞻預算拿多少?這一個前瞻預算。1265億,院長我們這是快問快答好不好。台中前瞻預算拿多少?"},{"start":3624.307,"end":3636.668,"text":"兩百二十八億好不好高雄巨蛋中央補助有多少?七點五億台中巨蛋中央補助多少?零元會展中心東側也是零元高雄捷運中央補助多少?"},{"start":3637.762,"end":3637.942,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":3667.098,"end":3668.939,"text":"謝謝廖委員韋強的質詢,也謝謝陳委員長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二號陳委員召之質詢。"},{"start":3705.785,"end":3730.82,"text":"謝謝院長有請陳院長跟衛福部薛部長麻煩再請陳院長衛福部備選總委很早院長還有部長早我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人醫學的唯一解答就是代理孕母"},{"start":3732.011,"end":3755.002,"text":"我跟我先生也偷跑過但是後來我們決定放棄曝光而且公開呼籲要推動代孕解禁目的是要幫助其他的病友有機會實現他們的心願我一生從來沒有預期能夠今天在國會殿堂有30分鐘的時間"},{"start":3757.162,"end":3770.513,"text":"能夠來談今天的主題。我的主題就是等待文明來解禁代孕。等待文明來解禁代孕。院長20年前我寄了這本書給您"},{"start":3776.482,"end":3800.385,"text":"有,謝謝你。而且那本書寫得很好。你為病人團體所提供的這個呼籲我很感動。為什麼我不能有一個孩子?那時候是2004年的現在。當時我們台灣剛經歷過SARS。您被認為是一個成功的任務型的署長。所以我在蝴蝶葉上寫著。我在蝴蝶葉上寫著。"},{"start":3802.362,"end":3822.941,"text":"親愛的署長感謝您用愛心跟專業來守護臺灣我祈禱您的智慧跟您的慈悲等同您的權利跟職位幾天之後我去衛生署向您陳情而且我還指控人工生殖管理委員會是違憲的他們從來沒有讓病人進去說話"},{"start":3827.23,"end":3852.387,"text":"他們沒有法令卻用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人代孕我還向您指控他們是一言堂裡面充滿的充斥的反對的聲音連一個支持的聲音都沒有院長後來幾個月之後您用臺灣第一次的公民會議回應了我的需求"},{"start":3854.226,"end":3859.038,"text":"我在此再向院長致謝。謝謝院長。不會,不過很可惜這個"},{"start":3859.889,"end":3865.471,"text":"謝謝院長但是最近有一些反對者說我當年是逼迫您來做這個公民會議我何德何能所以是不是在今天的質詢台上你能夠幫忙釐清當時為什麼您願意舉行一個公民會議你的初衷跟你的想法是什麼"},{"start":3888.939,"end":3916.117,"text":"在2004年那個年代對於很多的新的一些醫療的措施怎麼樣來進行實際上很多聯醫界還有公民權利的這個學界都沒有很了解所以而當時最好的一個方法就是用公民審議的方式讓公民在得到很完整的知識的情況下能夠來做決定所以我也採納了我們臺大的"},{"start":3917.545,"end":3941.362,"text":"社會科學院的同仁還有法律學院的同仁的建議來實施這個選議會。謝謝院長您的釐清這對我非常的重要那我也想告訴院長跟部長在2002年的時候賴清德立委賴清德立委他就提出了支持代孕的法案當時連署人也有蕭美琴立委陳其邁立委"},{"start":3944.093,"end":3968.588,"text":"總計這個提案人跟連署人總共超出了30位可見當時立委們對這個制度對這個法案是有共識的那這份提案的總說明因為是發生在22年前有他的時空背景他的用詞我稍微念一下一個人不管是先天或後天的原因缺乏了傳宗接代所必須的生殖要素這是不可彌補的身體缺憾"},{"start":3969.888,"end":3996.936,"text":"應該被公平地視為升職機能上的障礙者我們的社會仍然相當重視傳統接待在社會價值觀沒有改變之前對於這些升職機能有障礙的人應該用寬大包容的心來幫助他們而不是意外地要求他們要放棄生育權被強迫去收養小孩請問院長準總統跟準副總統在2022年前"},{"start":3999.477,"end":4020.873,"text":"就提出不應該一面的要求我們放棄生育權。這個平等法案您支持嗎?我當然支持。部長、學部長您近期一直對這個法案說它是有爭議的。你知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎?你知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢?"},{"start":4022.506,"end":4044.168,"text":"部長請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委他們在22年前就提出了這樣的法案,您會告訴他們說你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎?蕭部長請回答,謝謝這個是一個事實,那對於這件事情人工代孕的這個事實的話是有不同的看法"},{"start":4045.822,"end":4063.225,"text":"社會上有不同的看法。等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖。你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼的認真。他很努力收集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持。而且他還做了一個調查,調查這些立委們。"},{"start":4064.286,"end":4093.058,"text":"包括當時是國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委。跨越藍綠總共超過30個人以上是簽署了這個法案而且他們的民調是這樣的他們確認代孕是需求是存在的是正確的是需要大於不需要而且當時同意支持代孕制度的民進黨立委占了56%是最高的我這個讓部長跟院長都了解"},{"start":4094.977,"end":4118.219,"text":"我想跟兩位所長談我們的故事跟人生有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念說不孕不是病所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商商說我們只需要群體的心理治療還有一位前台北市社會局顧局長他說不孕不是病為什麼會痛苦"},{"start":4120.046,"end":4146.56,"text":"有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論。我也曾經被保健處處長指著說,昭茲,你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說,人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說,不孕的解答就是收養。但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":4148.666,"end":4177.495,"text":"某位前法務部部長他在電視上公然跟我說收養跟親生一樣好不過他自己是親生的那也有一位前總統他公開呼籲當時台灣有很多的棄嬰那個年代他說台灣有很多可憐的棄嬰請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛去收養這些小孩這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生"},{"start":4180.134,"end":4201.084,"text":"人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰,對生命改變了很多。例如說沒有精或卵子,我們也有機會有下一代,這就是所謂的捐精捐卵。例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室而不是輸卵管。"},{"start":4202.472,"end":4231.461,"text":"人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結。比如說代理運動。人工生殖技術把自古以來生育的連結、連續性分割了。每一個分割點就是診斷不應或治療不應的非常關鍵的一個因素。人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助有一些罹患重病的病人,包括癌症。他們可能因為治療而失去生育力。"},{"start":4232.501,"end":4257.54,"text":"但是仍然抱著一線希望未來還是可以保有追求幸福的這樣的一個期待其實我要講代孕其實是奶媽的延伸古代的人媽媽奶水不夠他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子那我們呢我們就是子宮不健康啊我需要一個溫暖的子宮讓我的孩子長大"},{"start":4259.161,"end":4282.299,"text":"人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人不可以用這些科技這是多麼的殘忍跟不人道我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議為什麼子宮有障礙的人他就是不能使用這個科技"},{"start":4285.475,"end":4312.445,"text":"整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰跟質疑所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人我會問自己我有資格結婚嗎?我有資格戀愛嗎?我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢?什麼時候講?對誰講?我曾經為一對竹科的情侶的女方家長她媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人"},{"start":4316.021,"end":4343.958,"text":"確切書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是因男方的要求因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼?結婚的時候難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎?結婚以後最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎?"},{"start":4346.761,"end":4372.819,"text":"其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾曾經有一位臺大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救她的女兒嚷著要休學為什麼呢因為課堂上要做理學檢查同學們互相做理學檢查她擔心自己的秘密被曝光其實我們就醫時我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說"},{"start":4375.37,"end":4401.927,"text":"在我們的婚姻過程當中我被要求做子宮頸抹面檢查的時候我該怎麼辦呢?所以有時候我有不得不的謊言我在美國念書的時候我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉她擔心我的身體秘密會曝光我常常祈禱我不要生病住院否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情"},{"start":4404.707,"end":4434.41,"text":"看病的時候其實我們是充滿焦慮的因為合格的醫師一定會問一句上次你的月經什麼時候來這個跟用藥是有關的這個時候我只好編一個日期編造一個日期給他護光後我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說他會說沒有小孩也很好但是他們都有小孩更多人說收養跟親生的一樣好但是他們絕對是親生孩子"},{"start":4436.618,"end":4456.42,"text":"那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢?就是要我們去收養小孩、收養棄嬰、收養孤兒。請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎?請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎?請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎?"},{"start":4458.7,"end":4478.576,"text":"各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力以至於30年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕30年來只有我一個人陳昭志一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人為什麼呢"},{"start":4480.182,"end":4486.285,"text":"院長、部長,我們還要受到凌遲多久呢?我收養小孩了。我的孩子被公認是個暖男。他在學校非常的活躍,也得過利他獎。"},{"start":4506.786,"end":4531.958,"text":"但是不要忘記也有一位射精地位很高的政治人物他的收養案例是失敗的30幾歲以後孩子30幾歲以後他們終止了收養關係可見收養不是一件容易的事情不孕者的選項是什麼?終身無後嗎?收養小孩嗎?還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技"},{"start":4533.373,"end":4559.718,"text":"我要談的重點是其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精捐卵收養本身是一個讓我來形容因為我做過了我收養了孩子他是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題"},{"start":4561.988,"end":4562.489,"text":"所以我要告訴兩位首長"},{"start":4582.745,"end":4586.108,"text":"我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長,因為他們負責收出養業務。我非常驚訝,但是"},{"start":4606.533,"end":4631.761,"text":"也如預期的完全沒有資料。臺灣沒有這些收出養的資料會等分析評估。你們知道嗎其他多少國家他對收養法不斷的檢討不斷的改進甚至英國幾十版的修正為什麼呢因為收養的問題層出不窮接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差"},{"start":4633.346,"end":4660.03,"text":"醫學生殖科技進步了可以幫助不孕原因的診斷跟治療但是我們的感受是子宮有障礙不是不救是不肯救不是不救是不肯救生殖科技原是為了幫助人民增進幸福滿足他的心願但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運禁止我們使用科技"},{"start":4661.929,"end":4685.974,"text":"所以有資源的人只好回避禁令,偷偷在國內,是的,偷偷在國內,包括我的曾經,在國內進行待遇,或遠到海外去執行待遇。有關人工生殖法的部分,我也很有意見。捐金捐軟,尤其是捐金這個部分,在默許了十幾年之後,在2007年才立法管理。"},{"start":4687.418,"end":4715.225,"text":"而且據我瞭解我也向國建署瞭解過捐金沒有追蹤後果堪慮啊大運那麼清楚卻要阻擋經過兩次公民會議的討論長期被擱置我覺得這是歧視這是偏見我在這裡要國會殿堂表達最嚴重的抗議對大運是歧視去偏見我要提出最嚴重的抗議"},{"start":4718.12,"end":4740.809,"text":"我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕他們處罰的對象是醫師不讓醫師來幫病人做最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照所以我一輩子不會說合法化我講的是代孕解禁我講的是法治化因為我們從來沒有犯過法"},{"start":4743.069,"end":4747.553,"text":"我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願請願我參與過無數的公聽會我一直訴諸媒體甚至醫學課堂我在1996年用真實姓名去面對"},{"start":4758.381,"end":4784.8,"text":"大眾用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕我在2010年那是SARS之後教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課我談的就是代孕那一次的課程那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室讓我覺得這是馳來的正義"},{"start":4787.113,"end":4813.672,"text":"我也受到非常強烈的震撼。請問各位有人看過民國八十年的報紙嗎?這一份是民國八十年的報紙。民國八十年10月23日的報紙。民生報。它的標題是一個沒有子宮女人的生歸院。後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的。指標題是沒有法故事永遠沒有結局。"},{"start":4815.12,"end":4840.438,"text":"其實當時民生報錯把比名的位置放了真名讓我痛不欲生後來總編李淑娟向我道歉第二天我們做了一些補救讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章我只稱這個病人是我的朋友不是我自己但是為了幫助他我用第一人稱來稱呼他其實那個病人是我自己"},{"start":4841.704,"end":4866.466,"text":"只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情我當初在呼籲代孕解禁的時候的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家歐美國家通過了代孕他們沒有少子化國安問題也沒有傳宗接代的壓力那他為什麼會同意呢因為他們認為這是人權"},{"start":4869.997,"end":4895.255,"text":"但是時至今日我想院長跟部長都知道臺灣一直都是生育率倒數前兩名2017年開始我們出生的孩子的人數已經少於死亡的人數在我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀我的辦公室門口會貼的這兩個數字出生人數跟死亡人數上個月出生人數不到1萬人已經破了新低了"},{"start":4896.175,"end":4907.432,"text":"但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求呼籲幫助健康的人要生小孩這是沒有錯的但是對於無法生育的人呢"},{"start":4909.25,"end":4935.355,"text":"對於代孕需求的人絕口不提。為什麼?我這裡想請問部長,對於少數偏激、自私、健康、充滿意識、情態、充滿悲憾、妄想症的一群反對者,他們的意見有那麼重要嗎?我們需求者的意見呢?還有我們的心願呢?還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢?"},{"start":4936.858,"end":4952.035,"text":"難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎?難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎?部長這個部分的話其實就是他完全是有非常大的爭議因為這牽涉到一個第三人"},{"start":4952.898,"end":4975.594,"text":"那剛剛委員所提出啊2002年嘛那時候賴清德副總統當立委的時候他有推這個案子但是後來沒有通過我想要告訴你齁所以表示說那個爭議還是連台灣齁請不要再做生意啦爭議好嗎您的東西很多衛福很多東西是爭議的啊造作不悟啊"},{"start":4977.431,"end":4992.364,"text":"爭議這件事情我可以告訴你因為全台灣只有我最多這個數字願意代孕的女性比需求的女性告訴我的還多我手上是一堆名單請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕人他的心願這也是他的權利他想成全別人"},{"start":4995.424,"end":5021.558,"text":"請部長了解一下什麼叫公民會議下一張公民會議公民會議就是他是個簡稱原來叫公民共識會議這是民主國家行之有年一種審議式的民主公民會議就是讓一群公民他沒有具有專業知識基礎這群公民是經過報名然後隨機取樣的然後他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論然後找出他們想要了解的問題然後在一個公開的論壇上"},{"start":5022.719,"end":5046.08,"text":"就向這個專家學者們詢問他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們做備選然後他們在有一定程度的知識跟訊息的基礎下他們討論他們辯論他們找出結論他們找出共識然後做成報告公諸於世交給國家做政策的參考這就叫公民會議"},{"start":5047.796,"end":5064.091,"text":"院長我知道您還記得這個您幫我主持這次會議這是多麼嚴謹而且參與者是高度了解所有資訊的人所謂的well informed就是充分知情的一群公民他們的結論是同意的"},{"start":5064.972,"end":5080.7,"text":"而且院長你答應我半年後有進度誒陳院長我現在還在苦苦等待你當年的承諾你可以兌現你的承諾嗎當時你只是衛生署署長現在你貴為行政院院長你可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎"},{"start":5082.398,"end":5106.221,"text":"這就是在當時公民審議會議之後我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出但是很可惜很可惜在立法院的討論就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣都沒有在大院裡面得到通過我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策不是什麼都訴諸民意我看到民意不高的也照做"},{"start":5108.261,"end":5132.848,"text":"對,所以這裡面就是有不同的我們來回顧一下公民會議的兩次公民會議的這個結論我們第一次在2014年就是林丹任署長的時候當時有兩項結論第一個是同意有條件開放代孕第二項很特別的就是因為我剛剛提到很多人叫我們收養不要去搞代孕所以我很成功的說服那群公民把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡"},{"start":5134.028,"end":5150.842,"text":"有關收養之主他們是這麼講的,不應該因為有需要收養的孩童而將收養強加於不孕者,並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲的道德批判。這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷,都是可採行的管道。"},{"start":5152.26,"end":5177.292,"text":"這麼清楚具有邏輯還具有價值觀的這個結論竟然在20年前的公民會議會出現實在是令人敬佩跟感動他們很了不起他們當時我讓部長有一邊了解公民會議的水準第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑婷署長的時代我就唸一下她的結論不應委託者同時提供金跟軟就同時都有了應該早日開放"},{"start":5178.012,"end":5203.065,"text":"無應委託的僅提供其中一個經貨卵也應該予以開放。那無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作政府要積極介入當時國建署副署長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說未身處傾向支持這個代孕然而一言當那是2012年又經過12年了好"},{"start":5207.335,"end":5232.33,"text":"一年來我們做了多少努力。1996年行政院法會委主委陳美玲主委曾推出夾疑兩版的草案。2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請英美專家跟當事者到台灣來分享、討論。從此以後國建署非常積極地召開會議,最後在2016年提出了草案。"},{"start":5233.919,"end":5252.348,"text":"那這當中國建署做了三次全國性的民調全國性的民調2010年2013年2015年大體上的結論是六成人支持兩成人不反對所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的但是儘管有國際研討會"},{"start":5254.279,"end":5279.059,"text":"兩次公民會議、全國性的民調三次以及無數的公聽會、國建署的草案到今天人工生殖法還是選擇性的無視於這些子宮有障礙的待遇需求。院長一個攸關生育權的法案您覺得延宕了30年合情合理合法合憲嗎?院長我想我們再繼續來努力"},{"start":5280.592,"end":5291.144,"text":"院長跟部長,你要臨時我們多久呢?你要繼續臨時我們就需求的多久呢?報告委員,這最終的解決還是必須要在立法院"},{"start":5292.424,"end":5317.119,"text":"我們是可以說盡量在各個過程把它縮短,把草案送到議會。我聽到你要盡量做,就是說您是一個婦產科醫師,我現在見到反對者的理由跟意識形態。好,這麼多年來,我們來看反對者反對了什麼。30年來理由一成不變了。反對者指控我們說,這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡不健康。"},{"start":5318.968,"end":5345.717,"text":"但是明明就有很多很多國外的研究指出透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩他們做比較在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別好嗎這種臆測之詞這個是空想之詞完全不符合科學的驗證這是第一個大家都可以去查這個報告第二個反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化"},{"start":5347.318,"end":5370.64,"text":"我想相對於妻子跟媳婦,帶孕難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎?他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎?我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我帶孕嗎?你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼?我想院長或部長應該知道,倫理學的基礎就是一個自主性,autonomy,是最高的原則。"},{"start":5371.901,"end":5397.583,"text":"自主性是非常重要的當然不孕夫妻他可以選擇生或不生他可以選擇要不要去委託代孕代孕者有百分百的權利決定他要不要幫人家代孕他有百分之百的決定權哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢如果那些反對者如果我是你的女兒如果我是你最愛的親人你還會這樣指控我嗎"},{"start":5399.722,"end":5414.136,"text":"還有一些人指控代孕者會因為射精弱勢被欺壓。非常感謝另外一位委員陳金輝委員他也是婦產隔離師他在質詢的時候或是在公聚會的時候都清楚的指出他用了最新的一篇報告"},{"start":5415.017,"end":5443.96,"text":"加拿大的研究報告287位代理母大家都是基於利他的心態helping others幫助別人的心態去做代孕他們認為代孕是在助人在幫助人擁有一個家庭而且53%的人是大學教育以上50%的人是有工作的他不是工作他不是經濟弱勢也不是貧窮者部長從曝光的第一天我從來都不是為自己但是我背後站了一群需求的人"},{"start":5445.137,"end":5468.756,"text":"曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待終至絕望正式進入醫師的傷心檔案兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎?傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎?院長部長那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去放在心上帶回去"},{"start":5469.973,"end":5494.301,"text":"將心比心,成全別人追求幸福,是人生的最高境界。希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。議長,我再提醒您。我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的炎。要做一支小蠟燭,照亮台灣。"},{"start":5495.771,"end":5523.831,"text":"院長,我希望您能秉持這個觀念,秉持這個信念為我們這群弱勢的病人發光,成為他們的光,好嗎?院長好,謝謝你為不孕症者所反映的這一些心聲我覺得你很勇敢而且很慈悲很善良那這件事情我們會全力以赴各界再來做最深入的溝通希望在短期內就有很好的成果那也期許部長"},{"start":5529.716,"end":5538.673,"text":"謝謝陳委員召職質詢,也謝謝陳院長的背信。接下來我們請登記第三位林委員義軍質詢。"},{"start":5565.1,"end":5586.992,"text":"有請院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢院長早安院長早首先請教院長自從全民健保實施10多年來印象中你覺得有哪一年是沒有虧損的呢"},{"start":5590.329,"end":5613.294,"text":"這個詳細的情形我不太清楚,但是每一年我想我們大概都能夠來讓健保很好的營運。我們當它面臨到困難的時候,你也很清楚,我們就會調漲費率或者是用不同的方法。這就是我後面要說的,就是健保署我們每次都會說我們都要嚴格把關,對不對?"},{"start":5614.574,"end":5634.751,"text":"但是結果我們都是直接砍要價,不然就是調漲健保費,增加民眾的就醫上面的負擔,企圖讓全民買單還是移藥養醫,其實這看起來齁,其實衛福部和健保署好像惹得民怨啊,還有無奈很無辜啊,也很冤枉,但其實其實整個大"},{"start":5635.712,"end":5663.133,"text":"的問題受害的其實都是民眾本席也認為對於衛福部還有健保署來說其實這些問題都實在是非戰之罪但是本席認為健保嚴重的虧損問題本來就是衛福部在醫療制度上沒有正在民眾用藥的權益上而造成規劃錯誤的結果所以在臺灣的醫療還有健保的制度上面我是想要來談談長期很重視的一個結構上面的問題"},{"start":5664.034,"end":5689.489,"text":"就是醫藥分業那醫藥分業是臺灣體系上很重要的一個議題雖然我們政府其實是醫藥分業也實施了20年了但目前我國屬於比較特殊的雙軌制雙軌制就是說醫院和診所都可以僱用藥師在院所內做調劑而我們看到很多先進的國家其實現在已經完整的整個採納當軌制"},{"start":5691.77,"end":5717.757,"text":"當委之就是院所完全釋出處方簽,包含歐美各國還有臨近我們日本和韓國都已經開始推行完全分離的醫藥分業的制度。甚至2000年才開始實施的醫藥分業的韓國處方簽的釋出到現在幾乎都是百分百了。而我們長期在臺灣醫藥分業的問題中其實我們大家也都知道,都有看到首先是藥師對處方簽的獨立的專業性。"},{"start":5721.178,"end":5741.499,"text":"在一般的情形下醫生大約都是診斷治療還有開立處方簽不調劑藥師就是調劑前評估處方內容是否適當但是醫師跟藥師如果同屬在一個醫療的機構下使藥師難以對處方提出客觀的建議和質詢"},{"start":5743.021,"end":5771.252,"text":"其實加上這些醫生跟藥師互相的僱傭關係會造成藥師根本沒有辦法很客觀的評估用藥上面的合理性還有藥價差嚴重的藥價的問題會產生所以我現在就是說院長部長我們來回想一下就是回想一下疫情期間的事情在新冠肺炎的期間我們有發現當初為了預防病人到大醫院會發生他怕他們感染"},{"start":5771.932,"end":5794.082,"text":"所以患者在慢性病的病情穩定之下其實有很多大醫院都願意提高慢遷處方釋出的意願因為讓病人到家裡附近的社區藥局去領藥不但可以預防民眾為了單純領藥再次回到醫院受到感染而且可以增加病人在家裡附近社區藥局領藥的便利性"},{"start":5794.762,"end":5813.752,"text":"那原本可以在社區藥局領藥的病人、家屬都可以不用再坐車勞頓到大醫院去領藥,也可以受到社區藥局的照顧、就近的照顧。所以顯然大醫院釋出處方簽的制度是可以行的,只是醫院願不願意而已,對不對?"},{"start":5815.018,"end":5827.848,"text":"跟委員報告齁那這一個部分的話其實剛剛委員提到是一個是醫院一個是在診所那醫院裡面有許多的處方是要當場去處理的你把它釋出出去再回來的話那個"},{"start":5829.285,"end":5844.236,"text":"大概不太可行,比方說政績等等這一類的,這個的話釋出再回來是可行性不高的。那我們很感謝藥師在疫情期間在社區藥局方面給這個全體民眾的一個幫忙。"},{"start":5847.579,"end":5858.365,"text":"讓這個漫簽那能夠釋出之後在社區要求就能夠來做調劑那給民眾的便利減少了這一個感染的可能性但是這一個"},{"start":5859.71,"end":5878.166,"text":"如果說基層或者是不管是醫院或基層的診所他要把處方釋出全部釋出的話我們又必須要考慮到偏遠地區沒有社區藥局的地方這樣子的話會對於民眾產生非常不利的影響"},{"start":5878.746,"end":5879.846,"text":"對不起我現在手上沒有這個資料"},{"start":5894.991,"end":5922.202,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是說在藥品的市場上大醫院藥品的議價和社區藥局的議價你覺得哪一個比較優勢呢當然量大的醫院的話議價能力是會比較高的那院長我想問一下在健保砍藥價的制度上藥廠都被砍了藥價然後藥廠覺得成本不服所以直接退出市場造成民眾無藥可用這種會發生缺藥危機那院長你覺得這個是我們樂見的嗎"},{"start":5923.984,"end":5950.622,"text":"當然不是我們樂見的可是一個藥會退出這個臺灣的市場有很多的理由藥價是其中之一另外也是有沒有新的藥物進來還有沒有其他的同等要效的藥物進來而它的價格跟它是有所競爭所以我們不能夠以單一的藥物是不是離開這個市場就來判斷而應該要看同品質的藥到底是不是"},{"start":5951.262,"end":5979.098,"text":"有其他的競爭者這個是在要價的決定上也是一個很重要的一個參考所以其實我們其實可以做一個更好的政策來選擇其實如果我們採用讓六大公立醫院就是臺大、成大、三總、北榮、中榮還有高榮完全釋出處方簽制度是否可以試辦看看呢這樣是不是會讓藥品回歸到市場的機制然後也可以落實保障全民的用藥的權益"},{"start":5980.299,"end":6007.171,"text":"那樣更對藥價問題或許可以找到解方這樣不是一舉兩得政府和民眾都雙贏嗎?這不完全是這樣我剛剛提到過不是所有的藥都釋出是最好的比如說針劑等等這一些在社區藥局他的備藥也是有限的所以他不可能所有這些所有的藥通通備齊所以"},{"start":6008.271,"end":6026.524,"text":"這個會造成民眾的一個不方便,所以這個是可以來嘗試,如果說委員在講的是慢性處方牽的這個部分的話,那當然我們可以來在制度上做一點點調整來做這樣子的一個考慮,這當然是可以研議的。"},{"start":6026.544,"end":6051.973,"text":"其實我們可以做一個配套其實剛才我講的醫藥分業的話如果是說處方簽的釋出做一個配套其實可以讓如果民眾在用藥方面的權益還有就是說便民的情況下這種事我們都可以來研討看看的剛才那個部長有講到說如果我們慢性處方簽可以六大公立醫院提高他們的百分比"},{"start":6053.113,"end":6077.245,"text":"這樣的話其實我覺得這是可行的因為之前疫情期間就是這樣就有提高到百分之三十百分之四十其實這樣的政策其實我覺得民眾的反應都是蠻好的其實現在的制度也沒有排除說這個處方箋釋出可以到這些大醫院可以到社區藥局去做調劑而且事實上也已經很多民眾"},{"start":6077.705,"end":6078.185,"text":"我們可以設定一個目標來做推動"},{"start":6104.121,"end":6120.534,"text":"委員你可能也聽過嘛在美國常常有像說有一些VA hospital他發現說奇怪怎麼這個病人一出去以後這個垃圾桶裡面很多處房間就是因為他領藥不方便他還要去藥房結果"},{"start":6121.094,"end":6122.215,"text":"可是在疫情的情況下其實社區藥局他們就是"},{"start":6150.989,"end":6167.504,"text":"不過委員剛剛有提到一個說在醫院裡面的藥師沒有辦法發揮功能這一句話我是不贊成的啦在醫院裡面的藥師仍然他有秉持他的專業在做他應該做的事情並不是說只是因為他受雇於醫院然後他對這些"},{"start":6168.945,"end":6171.807,"text":"我跟委員報告在醫院裡面反而這種藥師的建議是比較強的如果是在這個基層診所跟社區藥局之間這種建議反而是弱的"},{"start":6195.644,"end":6206.054,"text":"就是說藥師要把對於這個醫師的處方有意見然後要回饋過去在社區藥局我所知道現在這個情形是比較重要的。但是要考慮到病人的方便性。"},{"start":6215.362,"end":6230.714,"text":"我舉個例子比如說我拿到一個醫師的主房間我到你那裡去拿藥你說這個藥不行那你就跟我講說你回去跟這個醫師說你開的藥不對那我是病人我認住了說Oh my god那我還要再去看醫師然後呢"},{"start":6233.015,"end":6255.181,"text":"他說我在醫院拿會不會比較方便,所以這個是需要多方,病人、醫師、藥師的方面,一個體制,對對對,要配套。現在就是每一個地方,每一個各國都已經醫藥分業了,但是我們就是還在做到雙軌制,明明就是可以當軌制的,是不是我們也要往前再進一步呢?"},{"start":6256.481,"end":6281.515,"text":"這個可能我們要來考慮一下的問題好現在我再來講下一個因為那個還有一個缺藥的問題藥價都不斷的調降藥廠都不願意生產藥了然後藥局接到慢性處方籤都虧損最後倒霉的都是生病的民眾這樣藥價的問題不斷的在惡性循環所以月初的時候其實我有在3月7號委員會中有質詢有提出意見"},{"start":6282.655,"end":6291.505,"text":"希望衛福部可以在調降藥價的情況下要考慮一下現實的情況才可以符合民意啊比如說我那天建議的關於連續處方簽的問題一般都是開3個月嘛對不對然後這個處方簽"},{"start":6297.692,"end":6313.071,"text":"是否在未來三個月都要改成就醫日期那一天的藥價為主呢?這樣是不是能保證患者後面兩個月的用藥呢?可是衛福部的一直的行政命令可以就可以讓保障民眾的"},{"start":6313.792,"end":6337.412,"text":"的用藥的有一些權益上面可以受到保障然後藥局也不會虧損的那麼慘所以我覺得每次政府都在調價藥價上面都調價的非常的開心可是沒有考慮到人民的生活難道藥師就不是人嗎對不對為什麼要把藥師當成壞人呢藥師是第一線要解決民眾用藥專業的人士提供民眾用藥的"},{"start":6338.553,"end":6367.695,"text":"要舉虧損最後大家都經營不下去了所以導致病人都沒有要吃然後也沒有要拿這樣是真的對人民是好事嗎所以疫情期間像你們也知道就是說要是真的全心全意都在配合協助政府的各個防疫的政策嗎難道辛苦的醫療人員有沒有被注重呢所以針對那一天我在委員會提出的慢性處方前三個月的"},{"start":6368.823,"end":6388.636,"text":"這件事情其實我都沒有得到一個滿意的答案這個部分跟委員報告齁其實我們在每一次要調調完要價之後的公佈會是有一個公佈跟開始實施的時候還是會有一個緩衝期差不多一個月啦那我知道委員在關心的是社區要求"},{"start":6389.336,"end":6412.898,"text":"當它本來幾戶比較高,所以它進價的時候可能是比較高。當這個健保條件要價之後的話,那幾戶就沒有那麼高。但是成本還是一樣,這個我了解。但是它的差距也只不過是在短短的一兩個月中間而已啦。那為了這一個事情的話,如果要整個的系統要重新去做修正的話,"},{"start":6413.519,"end":6442.278,"text":"那會非常的我覺得這是可以的啊因為你們常常在調藥價啊對不對你兩個月調一次五個月調一次的話一年一次而已一年一次而已但是有些東西還是有在稍微燒條啊沒有那麼多但是社區藥局的這個所謂準備的備藥的話他的量不會很多真正會就是說有損失的其實是金額非常少所以以成本效益的來看的話為了這件事情然後整個健保的"},{"start":6443.498,"end":6444.399,"text":"委員請衛福部把相關的資料"},{"start":6469.992,"end":6470.852,"text":"謝謝林委員、易軍的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":6496.411,"end":6516.136,"text":"接下來我們請登記第4號賴委員事保質詢。謝謝主席。以及各位先進有請行政院陳院長。來請陳院長備詢。賴委員早。你早。"},{"start":6525.216,"end":6546.358,"text":"我請教陳院長現在我剛看到媒體有一些報導說你對於馬英九前總統4月1號要到大陸去尊重他個人的決定那麼你的看法是尊重沒有評論還是說more than happy看到這樣他去"},{"start":6546.987,"end":6571.642,"text":"我想我尊重他個人的選擇而且他如果需要在中國的時候需要有一些安全的保障政府一定會來提供相權的保護但是我也希望馬前總統因為他是我們的前總統所以對於國人在有關於臺灣的主權自由民主的這些價值的這個期待也能夠符合我們國人的盼望"},{"start":6572.452,"end":6596.698,"text":"你看一下他去年就去了齁他去年在大陸每到一個地方都大批的大陸媒體每天的大幅報導他去那裡講什麼講中華民國講什麼他是中華民國的總統講什麼講中華民國112年去年的時候他到處在大陸的時候到處講中華民國到處"},{"start":6599.199,"end":6626.732,"text":"說中華民國到處說我們的憲法這就是你剛剛說的有一點質疑的主權東西他其實在去年展現如意啊你讀一讀,把他google一下,把他找一下清清楚楚,而且不要忘了院長所有的民調,最近的民調台灣民力基金會比較老實講大家認為他中間偏綠吧或者說中間也好,或者是淺綠whatever"},{"start":6628.79,"end":6656.536,"text":"將近八成的臺灣人民希望兩岸交流,多交流。兩岸多交流可以遠離戰爭。在現在兩岸兵兇戰偽的時候,這麼緊張的時候,老實講,有人願意去大陸跟大陸談,而且是這麼高度的高度的前總統。他是以前總統的高度去跟大陸談。"},{"start":6659.656,"end":6680.577,"text":"他當然是一個文化之旅、教育之旅、技術之旅,但是也是一個和平對話之旅。他替台灣人民,老實講這件事情做出來,如果真的能夠促進第二次的馬戲會,如果能夠做到"},{"start":6682.375,"end":6696.114,"text":"大陸不否認我們的自權我們也不否認他的自權兩岸互不否認自權那就是很大突破這個東西你要很感謝他喔"},{"start":6697.301,"end":6721.813,"text":"但是上次到大陸去的時候他到大陸去的時候在中國方面的官方一向不承認他是中華民國的總統雖然他自己說是啦對所以我想對我們一定要在兩岸的健康有序的這個交流上做不斷的努力那有任何這方面的努力我們當然如果有二次馬戲會你樂見嗎?"},{"start":6724.107,"end":6740.941,"text":"我想這是一個假設性的問題沒有辦法回答機率很高喔機率非常高喔就我掌握的信息機率非常高喔你的看法怎麼樣酸酸的還是happy的還是沒有表情"},{"start":6741.721,"end":6765.691,"text":"我希望如果有這樣的一個機會的話萬一有這樣的一個機會的話他能夠在習先生的面前來主張臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家而且來捍衛臺灣的自由民主主權問題你要扯主權問題他在去年的時候已經講得很清楚啦根據憲法來處理主權啦主權問題的話所以他應該講清楚老實講太平島現在來講"},{"start":6769.913,"end":6769.933,"text":"低調嗎?"},{"start":6799.636,"end":6803.806,"text":"總統不敢去啊!這麼好的機會總統不敢去!宣揚主權這時候該去啊!"},{"start":6806.189,"end":6833.481,"text":"大家都很清楚蔡英文總統不去就是因為美國的壓力美國2016年也給馬英九總統很大的壓力叫他不要去馬英九總統去了馬英九頂得住美國的壓力蔡英文頂不住美國的壓力這個東西就很清楚看得到你在這裡講主權主權真的喊我主權又不敢那裡佔你密布喔不要去喔不一樣喔"},{"start":6834.736,"end":6856.45,"text":"如果這樣說,萬一兩岸打仗起來了,你人在國外了,台灣危險了,現在打仗了,我不要回來。我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?沒有,我不要你回答,你先不要回答。我就告訴你,不要去講這個東西,給人家看,說給人家看。"},{"start":6857.915,"end":6877.876,"text":"原來綠營的人,多少人圍剿馬英九,所以說大陸去敢講中華民國嗎?馬英九講給你聽,中華民國,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國總統,馬英九講給你聽,中華民國一輩一十二年。蔡英文勒,太平島的世界,他就是chicken,不下去啊,頂不住美國的壓力,來!"},{"start":6880.639,"end":6905.746,"text":"因為這個時間你都扯不完了,我扯,因為我時間有限了。第二題我跟你講,那個勞動節你上一次回答委員的一個提問,請那個部長可以起來。是不是確定今年五一勞動節所有的人都可以封假?所有的工作人員都可以封假?確定了嗎?你要我回答嗎?你剛才都一直不給我回答,所以...現在可以回答了,現在給我,請。"},{"start":6908.414,"end":6935.493,"text":"我覺得委員如果問這個時候呢該給我回答的機會沒有我是覺得對我相當的不公平尤其是太平島本來就是中華民國的領土所以除非你否定太平島是不是中華民國國土要不的話你為什麼要去做任何的demonstration呢所以這完全不必要我不認同你的看法好五一勞動節這個放假的事情"},{"start":6939.436,"end":6962.913,"text":"五一勞動節放假的情形我們已經跟跨部會有開過會議那現在呢在跟民間跟企業的團體來做相關的溝通我們也希望能夠盡早的來做一個結論今年五月一號有希望全國放假一天嗎還在溝通當中我們當然是往放假方向走吧對不對我們在溝通看看各界的想法因為這裡面很高興啊"},{"start":6965.3,"end":6967.721,"text":"哪一些團體還在溝通?"},{"start":6989.436,"end":6994.258,"text":"我們郭通有成果會跟各位來做報告。當然是一定是在最近的時間內。差不多"},{"start":7019.749,"end":7042.549,"text":"老阿寶年金改革你還記得有一個人知名度很高的人跟你談過老阿寶的年金改革那個人叫做沈富雄還記得嗎?嗯記得在總統府2017年在總統府那時候外面的人在抗議這是他親口跟我講的你們兩個在那裡談老阿寶年金沈富雄說"},{"start":7044.127,"end":7060.21,"text":"年金改革的罩門在勞保院長曾跟他說就是沈副總勞保也要一起改革這是你講的嗎?對沒有錯你講的齁來結果勞保年金到現在完全沒有改"},{"start":7061.946,"end":7078.261,"text":"前災復燥超過12兆,有人講18兆,有人講16兆。昨天我在問委員會請教我們的許部長,你親口講的,說到現在為止政府補貼勞保,怕他破產,補貼了超過2600億,對吧?"},{"start":7082.502,"end":7110.159,"text":"對的齁所以讓他不要去倒因為一般估算如果沒有這樣補貼2028你就要倒所以院長你跟我們講的說年紀沒有改的話就沒有辦法領得到啊什麼之類老婆你沒有改啊你有政府不斷的補貼然後對公教人員來講的話你是完全不同的一個標準"},{"start":7113.338,"end":7140.911,"text":"公教人員到現在你知不知道公教人員年金改革下來到現在已經第7年了所得替代率一直降低一直降低要從75%降到60%一直降低一直降低已經快沒有辦法生活了結果人家有些委員提出來是不是可以stop you啊你還講紅蓮話啊這不行啊這不行啊等等你知不知道公教人員軍公教了齁年金砍下來一年省多少錢"},{"start":7142.125,"end":7169.001,"text":"到現在為止我可以回答了嗎?當時在軍公教的年金改革你回答我問題就好了一年可以省多少錢?現在在年金改革的這個過程當中就是把要省下來的錢放入基金到現在為止大概省下了兩千億所以我們現在確實兩千億六到七年的時間一年就是三百億左右一年省三百億"},{"start":7170.041,"end":7190.029,"text":"一年省300億其實不是說要怎麼樣怎麼樣但是這樣才可以領得長長久久領到老啊世世代代領得到啊對於現職的跟已經退休的人是合理的啊現在造成是公務人員不願意退休"},{"start":7196.962,"end":7216.508,"text":"我們謝謝他們願意留下來繼續服務在我們這一些公務人員都是很有經驗而且對國家都很認真的效忠他們願意留下來多做幾年我們感謝他實在是給他最高的敬意我們這樣好的公務人員應該讓他繼續努力"},{"start":7220.809,"end":7223.032,"text":"老闆你想要改,你現在為止原地談不到,"},{"start":7225.729,"end":7228.07,"text":"議長可以了齁因為我時間已經快到了齁"},{"start":7254.855,"end":7282.397,"text":"我這個話題要幫你打住我就是告訴你很簡單你們的myself你們的mentality就是因為你們認為民進黨政府認為軍公教大部分不是他的票錯誤我們感謝所有軍公教人員對國家的服務然後給他最高的歇意跟敬意來最後一題我們請衛生部長也上來齁那個許部長可以下去了"},{"start":7285.148,"end":7309.754,"text":"有人跟我檢舉聽好兩位長官我們現在啊自由貿易港區裡面一堆電子煙一堆加熱煙都在那裡進來了有人跟我檢舉啊我數字一看嚇一跳電子煙在台北關自貿區裡面有1826px加熱煙有6155px"},{"start":7315.154,"end":7344.242,"text":"前置加熱菸的零組件將近26.4萬個set簡單來講就加熱菸有27萬多這麼多的加熱菸這兩個請問衛福部長我想他比較熟了我就我不要為難院長我就請教部長他是不是禁止進來是不是?目前是是那是不是為禁閉?"},{"start":7346.579,"end":7371.271,"text":"我是不太清楚我們自貿區條例所定的違禁品的定義。你告訴我,對不對?自由貿易港區條例第15條違禁品不可以進自貿區。你知道這裡有多少嗎?院長你看喔!全國反聯團體都在看喔!三億根的相應的量在自由貿易港區裡面。"},{"start":7373.049,"end":7402.308,"text":"放了已經超過一年啦放在那裡啊幹什麼準備以後你可以了就進來臺灣或者出去你說轉移一下外國去但是明明白白違反了自由貿易港區第15條韋晉平不可以進來剛才部長講得很清楚喔韋晉平請你去查一下為什麼可以進來可不可以院長拜託你因為我問了衛福部"},{"start":7403.482,"end":7403.902,"text":"司法部部長"},{"start":7443.652,"end":7452.7,"text":"謝謝賴委員、世保的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,現在我們休息5分鐘。休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":7780.343,"end":7804.611,"text":"拜託院會,現在繼續開會。接下來我們請劉委員建國質詢。謝謝主席,有請院長還有衛福部學部長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢衛福部。劉委員,午安。議員,午安。謝謝。今年最後一百日,這議會跟你"},{"start":7806.448,"end":7806.468,"text":"拜訪國會議員"},{"start":7827.621,"end":7851.208,"text":"絕對是對於護國利民是一個非常攸關重要的事情那我今天因為時間真的很有限是5分鐘所以針對幾個面向要特別跟院長跟部長來做一個提醒跟討論那第一個當然就長照基金那台灣邁入超高零明年就到我個人看可能是今年年底明年初就要到了因為在七年前曾經講是2026三年前就講說再提早一年"},{"start":7851.852,"end":7876.194,"text":"我覺得還會再提更早一點點,這是我個人的淺見。那事實上台灣的22個縣市現在已經有6個縣市,早就進到超高齡社會。有嘉義、台北、南投、基隆、屏東,還有我的母縣雲林,已經代表的已經佔了四分之一的縣市。所以我覺得速度真的會越來越快。而且人口結構的快速改變基本上"},{"start":7876.986,"end":7899.017,"text":"所有的面相通通會變這個我在這邊也講了不下N次以上從經濟、教育、文化、產業等等等所以我們看到蔡政府執政之後也要回歸回推到馬政府的時候對長照的預算當時是平均是不足每年50億啦我們都講50億啦其實真的是不足啦不足一路一直到今年已經達到800多億"},{"start":7900.82,"end":7908.344,"text":"這是非常恐怖的一個成長。那部長、院長看這張圖就是說,這是我們為何不得106到115年的10年的長照推估表。當時是110年的支出,我們推估是396.36億。那實際上決算是來到454。那你看相差就17.9億。111年"},{"start":7925.299,"end":7953.62,"text":"415億的推估決算是559億又相差143億112年是428那決算是628相差了251億這三年幾乎是百分之一百兩百在成長我覺得這事情我不曉得我們的因應知道在什麼地方那113年當然我們現在的預算是抓828實際上最後的執行是多少還不知道但是推估是436如果照預算去算"},{"start":7954.246,"end":7966.413,"text":"又誤差了300多億,將近400億。這個推估表是不是要更正了?這是第一點。第二點,徐部長曾經對我講說,長照基金剩餘將近1000多億,主要是黃帝合一、菸稅遺產遺證還有所得稅,認為5年內長照基金的裁員是沒有問題。這是部長講的。真的有這麼樂觀嗎?我要簡單講一些背景資料,再給院長跟部長做答覆。"},{"start":7982.711,"end":7989.618,"text":"內政部在110年的12月統計那65歲的失智人口是30.8萬那國安會預估120年等於不到10年時間失智人口會達到46萬百分之50的成長所以未來這個面向照顧會更多我們的總總統賴清德特別提出長照3.0"},{"start":8002.438,"end":8027.183,"text":"那其中又針對住宿式的服務機構使用者補助方案從整個預算規模要從78億調高到118億就再增加40億還有要強化重度失能者的照顧新增居家或社區的晚間倒載照顧然後建立24小時的重度失能者支持服務這可能又要需要幾十億的預算的規模對不對而且我們長照幾支戶7年"},{"start":8029.326,"end":8031.387,"text":"這幾個面向我想從要進到實質上進到3.0可能明年我們的長照預算就會破千億。"},{"start":8046.854,"end":8070.579,"text":"一定會破千例。那院長跟部長再看一下嘛從過去長照基金的收入來源110億是700多億但是111到12它確實有高達將近900多億但是如果以我們的長照基金來源的預估就是推估表113如果是776.6億那今年實際上執行數是828的話那這均相差了50幾億以此類推114"},{"start":8072.915,"end":8073.315,"text":"因為我們的收入的預算"},{"start":8097.329,"end":8103.618,"text":"我們的支出的預算是根據收入的預算來。那收入的預算是由財政部這邊給的資料。"},{"start":8105.44,"end":8126.938,"text":"財政部在這個因為有一些像說房地利合一稅等等遺產稅這些因為他是比較不確定的所以通常會比較低估所以在年度結算的時候我們的收入通常比原來收入的預算高很多所以目前來講的話已經累計到1500億的這個基金的結餘在那個地方"},{"start":8132.877,"end":8161.892,"text":"所以我第二張表格對不起我抄一下第二張表格你可以看嘛你的結語是1120的時候是1072嘛對不對我還是照部長所講的金額去算沒有去年後來整個的結語算起來的話total現在已經差不多一千五一千五百億對所以收入有比原來的預算多很多如果成為部長所答覆的這樣院長你可以看到我們長照基金的支出推估表"},{"start":8162.552,"end":8176.331,"text":"跟財源收入表,坦白講這兩張表是假的,差太多了。我們的支出的預算只能根據那個收入的預算來支付。這就是含我們的,因為我們收入的部分,包括證預稅、菸稅還有黃地合一稅,那是浮動的。"},{"start":8179.816,"end":8186.099,"text":"一般政府說收入時,財政部都比較保守,就是說會說比較多,實際上會比較多。我們的支出,我們跟委員報告說,通常我們是量入為出的風險來進行我們的長照。但是你說的居住型長照等等,這長照3.0,清德總統未來要推動的,這個我們"},{"start":8208.769,"end":8209.79,"text":"但是坦白講這些稅"},{"start":8237.113,"end":8247.27,"text":"我們專家學者看待裡面他是認為是交機會稅的。所以以穩定性尤其這個房地合一的稅一直在打黃"},{"start":8248.472,"end":8272.72,"text":"這兩年可以比較高,明年後年、大後年它或許就會急劇下降也不一定。所以這個我是希望可能要有相關的一些應變的一些措施的。因為我們希望過去打出長照就是找到、看得到、找得到、用得到。我們現在更要顧得好嘛對不對。那顧得好才從2.0要變成3.0。那相關的預算增加那實際上你的來源收入穩定。"},{"start":8273.38,"end":8278.804,"text":"就是我們投入到這個資源部件的成本,這些的話會減少。差不多都有了。是啦是啦,就是這樣,一定也沒辦法在第一時間內"},{"start":8297.416,"end":8299.477,"text":"我也是第一個在本院提出這個修法的委員那時候當時是"},{"start":8324.228,"end":8340.995,"text":"院長跟部長都有打呼我,一步一步來啦,這個我當然可以接受,但是現在已經3月了,今年已經3月了。我知道這個衛福部今年有成立的健康政策與醫療科技的評估中心,這個要肯定啦,因為協助健保進行新醫療技術藥品醫材幾戶的審定,"},{"start":8343.925,"end":8367.485,"text":"但是跟賴副總總統要建制的一個獨立的百億癌症心療基金這顯然落差很大因為我們的目標就是國家的防癌癌症的防治計畫目標是在2031年讓臺灣的癌症死亡人數可以減少到三分之一要達到這個目標很多的面向必須要處理的但是這個心療的百億基金我覺得是重中之重"},{"start":8368.386,"end":8384.181,"text":"跟委員報告目前的做法是在健保的總額之內總額預算之內的話那我們利用這個公務預算補助的像說去年240億今年200億那今年的200億裡面我們就安了差不多60億"},{"start":8386.863,"end":8401.606,"text":"那其中24億左右是在做這個暫時性支付,那其他有三十幾億是在做這個新藥的納入。所以現在嚴格來講有60億的這個癌症新藥的錢,就今年。"},{"start":8409.168,"end":8427.749,"text":"明年的話我們會爭取看看是不是能夠有繼續有公務預算可以進來。院長當時跟部長談我是要從制度面一步一步來,對不對?那我覺得這個制度面是不是可以在院長部長在短時間內可以趕快去確定,不然你明年還是要"},{"start":8428.717,"end":8429.638,"text":"這是這個基金到底什麼時候可以成立?"},{"start":8448.316,"end":8464.877,"text":"我們目前就是先用這種方式來處理因為這樣子的方式跟健保才能夠比較能夠掛鉤因為跟委員報告新藥基金並不是所有的新藥就通通一直給下去"},{"start":8465.598,"end":8488.745,"text":"他是有一個過渡期的,那從暫時性支付到納入到健保裡面,變成常規性的給付,然後再過來就應該移到總額去。所以他是一個階段一個階段的。不然的話,一百億老實講,動不動腦,要這個癌症的藥品就不夠人了。這是暫時性支付為主啦。不,對你說的我了解啦,但是"},{"start":8491.306,"end":8493.111,"text":"你現在用這個方式當然是應付這段時間,甚至是"},{"start":8500.93,"end":8524.021,"text":"我比較粗魯啦,你回答誰比較方便就對了啦,我不知道意思。但是要建立這個制度,這回答是議會沒對你,議會給我回答了。阿現在你尊崇東會政協來的記憶箱,現在健康台灣的論壇已經啟動了嘛,這也是成為他重要的一個政見之一吧,要成為政策。所以為現在團隊打下好的基礎,還是要靠兩位吧。"},{"start":8524.821,"end":8550.49,"text":"所以機制上面的話那如果用健保這樣的機制的話是可行的但是就是怎麼樣確保他的來源財源啦他的財源是穩定的這個才是是不是一個院內可以給我一個比較未來的去正確的一個方向跟處理的方式還有這個目標要如何去達成的一個報告好不好謝謝謝謝院長部長再來就是也是去年10月在這邊討論的不理人慮荒這是院長任內跟部長"},{"start":8554.4,"end":8578.747,"text":"非常重視也非常絞盡腦汁的事情。但是我在這邊特別提到就是要搞在中國啦,不是大夜班小夜班的問題啦,也不是搞成到區議院跟醫學中心這批時間在這樣對抗。還好,因為八月之前的一個抗爭處理得宜嘛,可接受的一個方案大家沒有走上街頭。但是其實當時我們特別有提到就是針對所謂的"},{"start":8581.799,"end":8591.03,"text":"這個韓日班的不分這個急慢線的病床還有急診的這個應該也要與病去思考我們對大小月班有獎勵為什麼對這些就沒有獎勵這好像在分階級不對啦"},{"start":8597.145,"end":8615.672,"text":"各位委員報告,我們目前正在規劃這一塊,這已經開始在做討論了,我們內部先做討論,先把一個草案弄出來,然後再跟這一些醫界或者其他各界來做討論。這草案什麼時候會出來?應該是在上半年會有一個草案出來。"},{"start":8616.432,"end":8621.156,"text":"最後一件事情就是偏鄉醫療,這個剩下一分鐘而已,院長跟部長可以看"},{"start":8646.581,"end":8647.021,"text":"檢察院在110年8月18日調查報告"},{"start":8658.143,"end":8681.442,"text":"只我的這個雲林的口腔有牙醫診所。同時報告中雲林縣的部分鄉鎮僅有一家牙醫診所,也要求衛生部跟雲林縣政府必須檢討。不僅雲林如此,112年10月底前全台的牙醫醫療的資源不足鄉鎮還有153個。然後再來我們看到弱勢還有身障朋友可能需要倒載的這個牙醫的口腔照護或診治"},{"start":8682.921,"end":8707.331,"text":"全國有1萬6千個牙醫師,只有160位投入這個到載。所以我是覺得優化這個偏鄉的醫療第一期已經結束,到第二期什麼時候?院長可不可以在這邊做具體的承諾?這一個案子,也就是我們的優化偏鄉醫療的計畫第二期已經在..."},{"start":8720.279,"end":8725.142,"text":"謝謝劉委員建國的謝謝劉委員建國的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第6位吳委員春辰質詢謝謝"},{"start":8749.993,"end":8754.578,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請院長還有勞動部徐部長再請徐院長勞動部備詢吳委員長"},{"start":8764.215,"end":8790.535,"text":"院長好,院長你辛苦了。今天看你更有笑容。今天是最後一場的總質詢。很高興能夠接受委員質詢。那也是最重要的一場。希望你能夠以大格局、大胸懷助台灣最後一臂之力。好不好?好,我要努力。"},{"start":8793.38,"end":8816.688,"text":"1970年台灣65歲上的人佔2.9%那平均餘命平均壽命60幾歲然後60以後的人生叫做餘生就是隨便晃著晃著就掛掉了那就在這樣的一個前提下定立的叫做引法論述我們的引法官"},{"start":8818.128,"end":8840.976,"text":"現在我們邁向的2040年65歲上來的人要佔人口的30.1%10倍平均壽命80幾歲那60退休以後還有很多人會有30年這叫做第三人生那這就是我所建構的叫壯世代的主張"},{"start":8842.537,"end":8870.684,"text":"但是我們現在還繼續在採用舊的思維來應付面相的影響。如果這不改變,未來台灣會躺成一片。高齡者成為臥床族,我們現在臥床超過8年。還有這個少子化造成大量的躺平族。這是一個系統性的問題,但是我們現在都用枝枝節節的方式在捕破洞。"},{"start":8871.994,"end":8898.156,"text":"我們用2.9%的銀髮政策在處理30%的壯世代長壽社會的來臨。所以我們現在的社福預算已經達到了8千億。難道非要破萬億不行嗎?這個看起來只是可帶。請問院長,20年後,臺灣一半的人口都要超過60歲。"},{"start":8900.051,"end":8900.071,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":8909.205,"end":8935.332,"text":"你也是專門專家我想委員對於這個我們少子化的問題很重視而且分析得很透徹你剛才的分析就很棒那我想未來怎麼樣讓這個壯世代能夠有自立自足而且共榮永續然後對社會有繼續有貢獻我想這是很重要的而且不只是台灣這是全球的問題"},{"start":8936.932,"end":8965.045,"text":"但是台灣是全世界最嚴重的,跟南韓。我們在2055年會超越日本,成為全世界比日本還老的國家。後面還有很多要問院長。在我跟各部會最近大概都有溝通,我發現每一個部會的政策都在歧視高齡者,但是他們都無可奈何。"},{"start":8967.385,"end":8976.099,"text":"眾口都指向衛福部的引法思維。好像這沒辦法啊,這東西上面交代,上面的我不曉得上面是誰,上面是院長你嗎?"},{"start":8977.282,"end":9001.236,"text":"不是我啦。也不是你,然後人是蔡總統嗎?確實像委員講的這一些,有一些法規上我們確實是把...這是一個系統性的問題。對。所以呢,這個院長,這個台灣進入長壽社會,那我也看出來,我們整個請全力都在打造60歲以前的人生,這個社會非常的繁榮。但是你只要推開60歲這扇大門一看,"},{"start":9004.318,"end":9005.779,"text":"當然政府應該要一起努力,還有跟企業界"},{"start":9034.762,"end":9051.073,"text":"政府的責任但是感謝院長在3月19日的時候我在財政的總時訊當中院長也承諾了建立壯世代金融行動方案而且要求上市櫃公司"},{"start":9053.014,"end":9066.553,"text":"提出高齡社會的永續報告希望這個會追蹤落實同時陳院長在那時候我有問你對於2023年行政院提出的超高齡社會對策"},{"start":9069.362,"end":9097.661,"text":"請問院長你這些有哪一些是你所需求的?我想可能我們現在考慮到60歲以上的壯世代實際上他能夠不管是在社會參與在產業的參與或者是在健康生活上都能夠越來越健康然後越來越有活力所以很多的長照政策實際上也要注意到健康者"},{"start":9099.142,"end":9118.481,"text":"現在2023年看起來大家都還是圍繞在這幾個項目嘛這個醫療、養生、照顧的這些層面但是不可能30年整天在搞這個啦他要有完整的第三人生所以呢為這個長壽時代來臨我們社會普遍歧視老人"},{"start":9119.335,"end":9136.864,"text":"所以你用大數據輸入老人、銀髮、勒領這些稱呼依附過來都是負面的字眼所以他已經是一個被高度汙名化的大家都很怕被跟老扯上關係我辦了很多活動他說你不要用銀髮、用勒領不然我就不要"},{"start":9137.464,"end":9150.402,"text":"我不要去參加了所以我們勞動部現在都要談壯世代所以這個是壯世代運動在去年我還是民間身份的時候就到立法院來倡議也獲得跨黨派"},{"start":9153.953,"end":9169.729,"text":"共同支持,這個沒有什麼黨派的觀念,這是整個全民社會的問題。但是我們現在的銀髮政策只重視安、勞、扶、弱。所以有800萬的壯世代,如何讓他壯起來這很重要。"},{"start":9170.47,"end":9198.072,"text":"那上次我把用這個資產的高低還有現金流的高低可以把這個壯士貸分成四大類型那上次呢我們在財政的委員會提出的是針對上面這兩個這個叫安穩型還有貢獻型的如何活化他們的資產那今天呢我要跟勞動部還有衛福部來請教如何針對活躍化還有這個社福的因應之道"},{"start":9199.432,"end":9215.287,"text":"首先要非常肯定勞動部最近非常積極地推出了55Plus壯世代就業促進措施還有5050壯世代就業網路的合作計畫積極地推動但是這個部長勞動部高舉壯世代的旗幟新價值讓壯世代稱為主流"},{"start":9224.922,"end":9239.547,"text":"請問許部長,你說比起中高二零你更喜歡壯世代這個稱呼,然後你覺得壯世代對號召再就業有什麼助益?有什麼幫助?我想壯世代可以讓整個這個"},{"start":9241.755,"end":9241.775,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":9267.778,"end":9267.798,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":9294.957,"end":9295.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":9316.092,"end":9336.548,"text":"那那個造成的狀態進退兩難有些人想要提早退休其實50歲退休也不錯不是一定要有些人想要延後退休有些人退休想要再回來但是我們的退休體制現在綁手綁腳很不方便那造成了很多特別是勞基法54條僱主的強制年滿65歲勞工退休"},{"start":9340.271,"end":9360.246,"text":"其實在這一個方面也值得來探討像日本高齡雇用安定法裡面現在已經通過工作要延長到70歲而且現在日本很多企業4成以上的企業都雇用75歲以上的人甚至YKK這一個內部的規定"},{"start":9363.729,"end":9364.549,"text":"所以最後這裡我想要跟院長跟勞動部提出請求"},{"start":9391.325,"end":9407.123,"text":"第一點是檢討僵化的退休體制,還給人民工作的自由權。第二個是獎勵壯士在重返職場,能夠落實全面的法治化。這一點請問院長跟許部長可不可以給我們這個"},{"start":9408.584,"end":9428.527,"text":"八百萬的創世代的承諾我想讓這個退休的體制更有彈性讓創世代能夠繼續工作做他喜歡的工作我覺得這個是我們應該要努力的然後這樣的話有一些法制上的東西確實要修正譬如說像剛才提到的日本他是鼓勵"},{"start":9429.188,"end":9429.208,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":9454.113,"end":9475.288,"text":"接下來我要請教衛福部薛部長,最近您辛苦了,一個單一的案件搞得全國舉國天翻地覆,你也說社安網有缺陷,請問部長我們的社福體系缺陷在哪裡?"},{"start":9479.303,"end":9489.359,"text":"應該是整個的社會體系的話大致上可能都有一些小的問題但是今天這個案子是一個收、出、養的個案"},{"start":9490.177,"end":9518.411,"text":"收出養的個案在這個過程當中,那的確從這個案子我們發現了一些比較重大的問題。這個不會是,那個只是一個表象,應該講的是一個系統性的問題,整個系統性的人口都出問題。2030年我們有一半人口要超過50歲,再10年,可以用現在的社福的政策來照顧一半的人口嗎?"},{"start":9520.017,"end":9546.263,"text":"當然這中間必須要經過調整因為不管是在人力的部分的話也會出現這個很大的落差這個是一個大災問的問題不過10年也迫在眼前了所以要加緊腳步另外請問薛部長你有沒有注意到民間的浪潮有時候公務房房要看看民間浪潮現在大家"},{"start":9548.442,"end":9564.601,"text":"大家都不喜歡戴上銀髮這頂帽子,你有發現嗎?我們餐廳飯店都不用這個字眼,但是我發現我們的政府政策,銀髮產業、銀髮老人科什麼東西都僵持不變。所以呢這個"},{"start":9566.302,"end":9567.083,"text":"最後我要請院長、行政院"},{"start":9592.387,"end":9620.84,"text":"還有衛福部部長是不是可以承諾兩點第一點是檢討長照政策不只是照顧更需要照料然後第二點是排除年齡歧視去除老人及淫法的稱呼可不可以這個請問一下部長第二個部分那個老人這件事情的話會有問題因為我們很多的法規都是"},{"start":9621.906,"end":9648.221,"text":"要用法律名詞已經變在那個地方。我知道,這個當然不是簡單的事情,但是你不做,這個影響層面太大了。這個影響的層面是整個的政府的當機,整個的我們未來一半人口無所適從。所以我最後的一頁我要來問一下部長,那個院長,明年進入超高齡社會,布局2025年,我覺得我們現在是遠遠不足了。"},{"start":9648.82,"end":9670.104,"text":"必須要重新制定內閣世代循環的白皮書這個每一個部會總統跟行政院長要勇於打破框架勞動部要釋放勞動力教育部要終身教育的體制經濟部要做世代融合經濟的循環衛福部要去除引髮思維的政策速發部要科技平權世代共享"},{"start":9695.795,"end":9697.516,"text":"接下來我們請登記第7號王委員事監質詢。"},{"start":9729.011,"end":9735.594,"text":"主席我請院長以及衛福部薛部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢王偉無案院長無案部長無案謝謝主席"},{"start":9756.909,"end":9775.693,"text":"我們國家的醫療品質跟收費我如果用四個字來形容叫做價廉物美那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來我們醫護人員他們的犧牲"},{"start":9782.458,"end":9806.188,"text":"比方說護理人員大家很清楚他們工作繁重工作環境有待改善而且他們的收入不高加上在疫情期間種種這個危險加急那一下子給一下子要回這些對他們我覺得造成某種程度上人格的污衊所以你看"},{"start":9807.148,"end":9820.4,"text":"最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失那這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失我們醫病比"},{"start":9821.647,"end":9822.768,"text":"我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分"},{"start":9851.664,"end":9867.346,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9867.586,"end":9867.606,"text":"結果﹖"},{"start":9892.335,"end":9911.169,"text":"他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下,他們又沒有業外收入。大型醫院很多可以業外收入啊,有租金的收入,停車場收入,其他這個美食街啊,這個便利商店這些收入,他們沒有嘛。所以這樣的"},{"start":9913.325,"end":9940.606,"text":"情況下我舉去年為例好了去年基層醫療診所尤其我們台北區我們台北地區因為我們人口最稠密去年5、6月的時候COVID-19有一部分誤發的情況所以醫療的耗用增加那點子啊已經跌到0.9以下"},{"start":9941.445,"end":9963.748,"text":"那去年底又來一波流感那流感大家去的最多的當然直接就是去基層醫療診所這兩個因素之下臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0.81啦所以院長部長我在這邊要求就是說是不是要撥補"},{"start":9966.323,"end":9967.584,"text":"那個部長院長你們看法呢?"},{"start":9986.975,"end":10009.743,"text":"有關於去年因為這個解封之後那把這個COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來所以會造成這個整個點子下降因為它的使用就增加了那這個部分的話我們已經有方案在做處理那第一季跟第二季"},{"start":10010.043,"end":10029.104,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10030.325,"end":10054.264,"text":"所以得要有醫療診所幫我們整體全國的醫療來降低整體我們小病看小醫院嘛大病看大醫院透過轉診這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷所以去年的點子補到0.9是OK的那麼如果年年虧損失血的話我們失去了這些基層醫療診所"},{"start":10055.365,"end":10074.51,"text":"那我們全國的醫療將會崩潰,好不好?那表示,欸,院長,剛才部長講得很清楚,他知道有這個情況。對,而且,而且這個情況齁,就是他講得很好嘛,就是因為在去年還有COFI的幾戶本來以前都是用特別條例的錢嘛,那現在把它進入健保,"},{"start":10074.77,"end":10074.79,"text":"﹚廣告﹚"},{"start":10097.146,"end":10111.408,"text":"不能夠單單從點子就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好,我們要看看他這個點子下降的理由,如果是COVID...我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因,道德風險的評估這都應當。"},{"start":10114.051,"end":10129.99,"text":"但是當我們在醫療的這一部分我們健保收入的部分開源節流之外我認為如果差額開300億500億對我們整體一年國家的支出兩兆9000億而言那不是什麼大錢嗎所以我們應該來撥補來幫助"},{"start":10133.354,"end":10135.655,"text":"主席我可不可以喝水?可以,那邊是你的"},{"start":10174.797,"end":10185.121,"text":"我再來要跟您就教幾項問題希望你能夠積極的伸出援手第一點就是社子島的開發社子島現在的產狀社子島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久"},{"start":10193.498,"end":10217.132,"text":"這個地方如果大家有去看的話那根本像個鬼島沒有衛生設施連個基本的診所都沒有那也沒有衛生下水道那到處都是這個違章工廠林立實在說實在話我們公共建設在那邊近乎零的公共建設"},{"start":10218.372,"end":10244.131,"text":"現在社址島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來在內政部審查現在用的叫做生態社址島開發這能夠最符合環保人士也符合全體市民大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式"},{"start":10245.112,"end":10253.333,"text":"那現在唯一在反對97.5%的島民都支持,絕大多數的市民也都支持。"},{"start":10254.52,"end":10275.413,"text":"少數及少數社址島的居民2.5%的居民他們反對的原因他們竟然是說開發會圖利他們當地的居民我覺得這是非常離譜的如果這叫做圖利的話院長那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦"},{"start":10276.614,"end":10302.889,"text":"過去開闢馬路那都圖立兩旁的地主囉那如果所有的開發都叫圖立過去70年政府都在圖立民間不是這樣嗎那既然圖立了70年的所有民間為什麼獨落社址島所以圖立兩個字這實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由還有交通現在內政部在審的是說我們再來想想看是不是社址島要給個輕軌那個"},{"start":10306.49,"end":10320.496,"text":"院長,其實涉及到的交通在整個涉及到生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦。如果額外要做輕軌,那麼就是在政府區段徵收所謂的那六層土地裡面就有預留了嘛。"},{"start":10320.896,"end":10322.358,"text":"是不是你能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快進速審核通過好不好?好"},{"start":10339.135,"end":10360.99,"text":"在去年的11月30號的時候,臺北市政府還有公文給我們的內政部。那現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通。那我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力,讓社子島盡早開發。我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"},{"start":10362.551,"end":10376.369,"text":"還有我們台北市現在面臨的因為疫情的關係現在台北市正在推動的北環段、東環段、南環段的捷運遇到一個問題就是這三年來啊供料都大幅上漲"},{"start":10377.489,"end":10400.451,"text":"疫情的關係嗎?那供料大幅上漲的結果計算下來這三條線大概差額440億元。那麼440億元對台北市政府而言說實在話他們負擔不起。所以請院長是不是針對台北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額?"},{"start":10403.254,"end":10425.09,"text":"這個有關於這三個環線的這個經費因為物價上漲這個不可規則的這個理由而上漲的這個部分我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分來一起分攤這個絕對沒有問題但是如果是可以規則於地方政府的部分"},{"start":10426.09,"end":10440.315,"text":"發言委員對當然當然7分之後那院長我希望除了那個比例以外是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎臺北市身為首都他是各項全國"},{"start":10441.135,"end":10441.435,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":10468.188,"end":10468.208,"text":"院長"},{"start":10485.188,"end":10499.464,"text":"前幾年說實在話在這個補足各縣市預算當中臺北市確實分配到的比較少當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長他也疏於跟中央溝通爭取"},{"start":10500.692,"end":10526.013,"text":"只要有提出申請,我們就會認真來辦理。但是因為這個行政是地方政府要提出來,要計為它要提出來。還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的,就是我們議會助理這個聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資。那其實不只臺北市碰到,全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到。"},{"start":10528.695,"end":10551.9,"text":"部分助理的薪資已經22年沒有調整了。那院長你知道22年來物價是如何的波動,生活費如何的上漲。所以3萬元這樣子的低薪實在話是有點不能到齁。所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上也幫忙,那在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙。"},{"start":10552.52,"end":10572.087,"text":"我們跟地方政府一起來討論,因為這錢要付出去是地方政府嘛齁,但是我們中央跟地方一起來討論,其實這個案子齁,很多議員,不是只有台北市議員而已,所以說所有的縣市我們會跟大家地方政府一起來討論,一個最好的方案,這已經有講很久了。"},{"start":10574.708,"end":10579.331,"text":"議長還有幾項就是最近最近大家一直在炒熱這個ETF光這個00940兩天就1700億院長過去0050"},{"start":10588.257,"end":10592.179,"text":"他們至少奮鬥21年現在才3000億的規模這個00940啊吸引油脂熱錢兩天就1780億院長我在講的是一種這個現象我認為這個名稱我們政府要看顧好"},{"start":10607.466,"end":10626.857,"text":"不能讓這些財團像元大社的這00940像先前去年還有中信00934群力00937所有他們這一些這個都用所謂的我念他的名字直接在名字上面叫做大收益"},{"start":10627.978,"end":10646.61,"text":"高谷錫 高錫棟能 喔 然後一大堆名詞 什麼神級的高谷錫 我一直都用這樣子的名詞來騙人 過去政府 欸 米粉啦 不是米做的 就要他叫炊粉 對小老百姓是這樣喔"},{"start":10647.233,"end":10666.658,"text":"那結果對這些自吹自擂的這個部分應該有所約束我們會請金管會來對於ETF的這一個事情做好強化他的那個審查的部分還有落實這一個評準金的這一個相關的揭露的部分還有廣告的部分這個我們會努力來做主席是不是時間暫停因為只剩11秒那個那個"},{"start":10677.472,"end":10701.328,"text":"院長這次是你在我們大院最後一天的備詢那其實我對你這一整年來的作為我很肯定就是說你在行政院的團隊你沒有拉幫結派沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭所以院長我在最後這11秒鐘我要送給陳院長"},{"start":10705.353,"end":10713.798,"text":"一份離別的禮物一本聖經一本聖經那外加四個字珍重再見"},{"start":10735.037,"end":10758.595,"text":"謝謝王委員事件的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。謝謝接下來我們請登記第8位李委員燕秀質詢謝謝韓院長。我可不可以請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":10766.107,"end":10777.414,"text":"禮委員早午安院長午安我剛剛看到王委員送你珍重再見喔我要確認一下這一屆立委藉之任內這是我最後一次跟您質詢嗎是"},{"start":10779.881,"end":10784.306,"text":"我對於學術研究影響相當的最新那我現在也覺得離開學術界有一段時間我還是回去做我的學術研究對人類更有貢獻也說不定"},{"start":10796.838,"end":10825.429,"text":"謝謝院長我想反走過必留下痕跡說過的話做過的事情未來我希望也祝福你我們到不同的單位但是我相信所有做過的事情說過的話我想人民都在看我們就留給歷史來評價好謝謝院長院長三個星期我在院會的時候你提到說因為這一次電價漲的關係所以有其他委員提到說捷運臺北市的捷運是不是要有可以不要漲的空間"},{"start":10826.209,"end":10855.363,"text":"那你上個星期在特別提到說因為捷運費用是地方政府來做決定那特別是在北北基都有TPAS所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是上個星期五我關注你在院會回答的我沒有說錯嘛對不對對最主要的捷運的費率要不要調整是地方政府決定那TPAS他有這個我們有補助過所以要漲價沒有正當性這個是你講的嘛"},{"start":10856.478,"end":10868.326,"text":"對,我是以最主要的理由說這個正當性的理由是因為這一次的電價調整對於台電,對於北捷的這個經營的部分多了1%的成本的增加了。"},{"start":10868.916,"end":10894.686,"text":"好這個這個到底調整多少我我想地方政府到最後會有一個數字因為今年4月1號4月1號要漲齁因為以台北市來說他要負擔13%的電價整個台北市因為那事實上整個台北市政府捷運事實上他是虧損的狀態他28年沒有漲過任何的票價但是他虧損也達15億元今天早上我也特別關注到"},{"start":10896.086,"end":10921.132,"text":"市長也提到說大宗運輸工具可不可以電價不要調而且我相信所有有捷運的地方首長都希望在這一波電價不要調但是我也關注到在昨天在交委會部門的時候王國才部長也提到說馬上4月1號之後我們客運就要調漲不僅如此"},{"start":10923.163,"end":10926.999,"text":"下半年我們可能雙鐵、台鐵跟高鐵都要漲"},{"start":10928.697,"end":10933.22,"text":"市長,客運要漲,跟電費沒有關係,因為臺灣大部分的客運都是用燃油"},{"start":10959.017,"end":10972.741,"text":"下半年我們雙鐵台鐵跟高鐵也要漲那我就在想說那就是兩套標準啊地方的捷運我們認為不能漲但是我們的雙鐵卻要漲"},{"start":10975.181,"end":10989.716,"text":"院長我要提醒的是說大眾運輸工具他是綠色運輸我們都鼓勵民眾多搭但是如果我們不能中央跟地方共體時間人民對於這個通膨的"},{"start":10992.239,"end":11013.2,"text":"感受度會非常非常深刻不是每個人都有錢去玩股票大多數的民眾今天股票又在漲股票漲到兩萬點跟大多數台灣人沒有太多的關係這個漲幅未來是人民特別是領死薪水的民眾來說他是很痛苦因為買什麼都在漲"},{"start":11014.702,"end":11026.981,"text":"所以院長我們能不能有機會共體時間我們這些大眾運輸工具包括我們的雙鐵不要漲至少兩年不要漲委員我"},{"start":11027.608,"end":11047.214,"text":"我想台鐵之所以要漲價跟電費的增加一點都沒有關係最主要的話是台鐵最近成立了變成了這一個公司公司化然後台鐵是28年來為了要配合那高鐵呢高鐵呢高鐵他是一個我想"},{"start":11048.175,"end":11057.142,"text":"我只要提醒你,民眾看到的是一個結果,不管你說的理由是什麼,但是在民眾感受上,它就會是因為電價漲的原因。"},{"start":11068.551,"end":11087.571,"text":"所以,雖然我們鼓勵民眾多搭乘大眾運輸工具,但是我覺得在百工百業都醞釀要漲的狀況之下,我覺得要去思考,因為你到520之前您都是院長,我覺得這一波是不是要漲?"},{"start":11088.732,"end":11091.134,"text":"我可以答應你一件事情就是說這個TPAS的部分一定不會漲。"},{"start":11107.284,"end":11121.862,"text":"那T-PACE是臺灣喔,它一共有3億次的使用,然後它是大部分的通勤、通學甚至觀光…院長,但是我要提醒,變價一漲所有的成本都在漲,所以結業的變價也要漲。T-PACE不漲。"},{"start":11124.125,"end":11125.286,"text":"TPAS本來就包括了台鐵的運輸啊,對不對,您知道嗎?"},{"start":11149.576,"end":11153.31,"text":"有包括了捷運嘛,所以我們TPS不漲,TPS不會漲。"},{"start":11156.078,"end":11156.238,"text":"電價費率審議會一年開幾次?電價"},{"start":11182.916,"end":11207.527,"text":"電價審議委員會兩次齁兩次對那三月跟九月三月跟九月好那你知道在今年年底我們的臺電的虧損到達數字大概是多少嗎要看看政府有沒有撥補如果政府有撥補一千億的時候呢那他的虧損呢就可以減少虧損不管有沒有撥補就是他本身的虧損你知道數字嗎到目前為止他的虧損的話只會到五千多億嘛"},{"start":11209.36,"end":11218.183,"text":"我今天也關注到在媒體上你說這一次電價沒有漲到足沒有漲到足那9月份還有一次電價審議委員會還會再漲嗎?不會確定嗎?這是我個人的看法但是電價"},{"start":11230.216,"end":11249.463,"text":"在臺灣的電價的調整就是3月9月就是要開電價審議委員會那我們會有電價審議委員會還是要開但是會不會漲這個就是電價審議委員會來看但是我個人的估算因為我們去年還有前年我們每年都只漲一次"},{"start":11251.311,"end":11274.705,"text":"那院長你也知道這一次漲了很多百公百業大家那個物價通膨的感受度是很痛的有沒有可能三年不漲這個我沒有辦法幫這個電價審議委員會去做答案啦兩年還是一年不漲這個不符合機制嘛這個機制就是由電價審議會來決定電價"},{"start":11278.496,"end":11301.272,"text":"委員長,我的感受,這幾天民眾所感受到的,百公百業好像都要漲,昨天從媒體上看到臭豆腐,臭豆腐一盤也要漲到一百塊了。所以我覺得是這樣,王美花昨天講說我要去看看有沒有誰隨便亂漲,其實這個機制它能夠有多少的掌控度,其實我有很多的問號,但是我覺得我們手邊有很多的工具。"},{"start":11302.045,"end":11326.329,"text":"包括物價的稽查小組我覺得要立刻去啟動這個我覺得也是需要去關注但是昨天有人講說所有成本都在漲叫我不要漲叫我關門嗎所以我覺得漲幅的幅度這一次是非常大人民感受是非常深的所以這個也是我覺得在後續勞工是活的生活的非常辛苦"},{"start":11326.849,"end":11344.406,"text":"在過去8年蔡英文執政任內,貧富差距是越來越大,我們7年的總薪資是倒退的。院長,經濟成長率好,但是大家看到的數字,人民感受上是不一樣的。我說貧富差距,我們的貧富差距不是你想的這樣。"},{"start":11345.796,"end":11368.67,"text":"院長,院長你我領卸任之後你去你有機會多到基層走一走你就知道臨時薪水的感受度是怎麼樣你前幾天上一次你問柯子仁說上兩萬點你高不高興但一天我問處紀長說身為國家大長官我很高興稅收多但是我不高興因為我沒玩股票院長我要提醒你臺灣大多數的人"},{"start":11369.771,"end":11371.092,"text":"我講一下物價的部分好不好?"},{"start":11392.981,"end":11421.877,"text":"務價的部分吼,電費影響的部分不多啦。大部分的主要呢,我們現在物價影響比較大的像是燃油、燃氣、燃煤。院長,院長我知道你要講什麼。國際燃料的物價其實已經調整回來。但是院長,我今天我就是要提醒你,我臨之後拜託你到七層走一走,你就會看到百工百業都在漲,它也不得不漲的狀態,但是人民卻過得非常的辛苦。"},{"start":11422.097,"end":11449.91,"text":"沒關係我以後你有更多的時間你去貼近人民你就知道我們在講的事我一向很貼近人民好謝謝院長我接下來還是要問你因為你過去是衛生署的署長所以你也擔任過所以你一定知道醫院的困境是什麼在這一次漲幅當中過去我們三年電價平均漲幅從111年是8.411%到今年的11%總共三年加總我們是漲幅了33成左右"},{"start":11450.49,"end":11470.102,"text":"在醫療院所實際的電價111年它是15%、112年是7%、113年是14%它三年加總起來它達到46%所以它不可能是王美花所講的說有一些產業啊如果你減少用電啊我們可以調幅減半"},{"start":11471.38,"end":11487.741,"text":"你非常清楚醫療院所他不太可能店家來審因為所有醫療的器材冷氣感染間的那個濕度溫度控管都必須是長時間這樣子的運作我想你非常清楚"},{"start":11488.582,"end":11503.51,"text":"所以這一塊我最近就聽到包括我們這一次在醫療院所我們的那個國發會核定的醫療服務成本的總額裡面我們也定了就是在這一次的漲幅只能有3.075%那如果我們電價再漲"},{"start":11509.684,"end":11536.077,"text":"有辦法在總額負擔裡面有辦法承受這些電價嗎這個是我第一個我要提的問題你了解我因為成本就是這麼多它總額就只能成長3%左右裡面又含了人事費用又含了醫材、藥品的費用那電價也包含在裡面所以我實在不認為醫療院所能夠承擔那麼多的電價的調整幅度這個是第一個我的問題"},{"start":11537.762,"end":11565.965,"text":"那對於你第一個問題呢你這個46%是對的但是有一個很重要的重點就是電費是佔它營運成本的百分之多少那我跟委員報告在醫學中心這些大型醫院佔它營運成本的0.5到1%那在地區醫院這小型醫院是佔2到3%所以你看看46%乘上0.5到1%它增加的幅度是多少"},{"start":11566.625,"end":11594.038,"text":"院長,我要提的就是說,整個電價漲,藥品可能也會漲,醫療成本也在漲,因為我們現在人事費用,我們也希望調整,但是他就是一個大賊。你是要把所有的東西都要講進來,講醫療院所的這個成本,那當然可以啊。所以院長我才提醒你啊,我善意的提醒啊,電價在漲,因為他就是,因為"},{"start":11594.959,"end":11595.741,"text":"但是他占0.5%啊"},{"start":11603.879,"end":11627.274,"text":"但是院長我要提醒裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人士費用、醫材都包含在裡面我們這一次我們核定醫療服務成本我們只有讓他漲3.075%所以院長我要提醒因為我時間剩下的不多我們現在因為上個星期我知道醫療團體也上來跟行政院來陳情跟衛福部陳情那現在我們問衛福部或院長你的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":11627.995,"end":11629.276,"text":"對於電價的漲幅我們用什麼樣的機制去處理?對於醫療院所?有沒有可能補貼?"},{"start":11647.912,"end":11648.272,"text":"謝謝李委員延續質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":11677.506,"end":11680.787,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第9位,謝委員龍介質詢。喂喂"},{"start":11706.713,"end":11716.279,"text":"我請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢我看你這樣啊,剛才民進黨的委員在問你,你都出錯話了"},{"start":11726.104,"end":11733.407,"text":"我對你也很感激,沒有啦,我們說得有道理,我當然很感激我同意,我同意你做人的勞配都做得過,你問什麼,你外行不要啊,我感覺你這樣"},{"start":11747.791,"end":11755.292,"text":"民進黨在說的話,我聽到他說的話也文不對底,你就說我幾個例子給你聽。我講外行人生是在學生嘛,他是代表人民來啊,台灣兩千三百萬人,專業也沒有很多啊。你這麼專業也沒有幾個。所以我對你的尊敬是這樣啊。來行,我講來行惡劣很多。"},{"start":11777.165,"end":11778.085,"text":"因為你都自己聽得懂嘛!"},{"start":11805.456,"end":11831.111,"text":"對我我同意我會聽受年輕人來到這你尊重像我我如果說不對你就可以不用聽受我沒有沒有我沒有要聽受你可以直接把我弄亂了好想聽受啦好想聽受我算是比高峰人生的經驗比較沒有感嘛所以起來在跟你問就說我請問你你覺得有在吃胖嗎你愛吃胖嗎胖你麵包嘛對對對有啊我有吃胖對嗎對我有吃胖"},{"start":11833.729,"end":11851.772,"text":"阿想你沒對阿,阿那做胖的齁,那一個位齁胖點齁,一個位吃電沒超過千百多,他也很過行,他也很過行啦,對不對,烘焙的倒一下現在,沒吃電吃很胖啦,想你講的阿,阿電衣,他的電錢,他的身份差不多0.5%,這是正確的喔。"},{"start":11863.22,"end":11884.254,"text":"但是這個電池了喔,原來你的補充在三月才說,啊這個...掛合費齁,現在開始就不用想過去的約束啦,變成租行調整。不是租行調...不用...租行調整啦,變成啦。不用同...不用報備啦。剩下的錢不然我們不用再報備嘛。對,不用報備啦。這樣意思,你差不多就想說,準備要蓋電池啦。啊這兩天沒拍,你總要對掛合費去調整就好。"},{"start":11891.712,"end":11908.277,"text":"沒這個意思,這段條件我後面很久喔。他之前的發言就有說到包括這個身份嘛,醫療身份來的。所以主席去調整,我不是要跟你說對跟不對啦,因為事實起底就是大家都感受到。"},{"start":11910.136,"end":11938.081,"text":"臨環政策已經過程恢復,所以執行,恢復臨就是大家要去面對嘛。但是面對,你是做國的行政首長啊,你就有義務把這個臨民瞬間的痛苦,給他感激嘛。這跟做治療一樣嘛。啊你想想,一般的農村來,一般農村來我講,基站就站不住嘛。這是必然的啦,但是沒去,第一天要做啊。"},{"start":11939.1,"end":11960.521,"text":"政府也是要面對其他的問題,也是很嚴重啊。所以是不是要恢復到,啊大家不然我們來講,恢復到另外一個政策,你不敢講,啊不然這個婦人繼續要延期啊。你不敢形容。婦人吼,要延期吼,阿不一定是比較生疾。阿不,我告訴你,這人都專家,人也有來行的,都研究過啊。"},{"start":11963.644,"end":11966.472,"text":"在土地可以安全的經營下,延續二十年。"},{"start":11972.185,"end":11988.133,"text":"在安全的情形下,你說不比較省錢,我告訴你,就絕對比你的太陽鏈還省。比你的小家屬還省。我告訴你保證。你核廠的廚藝的錢是很貴的喔。我知道啦。你核廢料的處理咧?你核廢料不是說…在那個廚藝疫情…讓我們子子孫孫去負擔嗎?"},{"start":11994.656,"end":12004.745,"text":"您想要說科學啊,科學就是過去婦人庇療到今天40年前的婦人庇療,到今天婦人庇療科學所面對的,已經不一樣了嘛。甚至未來的10年來,這婦人庇療的再利用都可以在科學安全的監督之下遞到再利用。"},{"start":12019.918,"end":12027.58,"text":"所以我今天不是要跟你討論婦女的情緒﹖這我沒同意﹖這不是客戶﹖我告訴你喔﹖這個﹖電池開了會應用很多﹖醫療﹖因為福利單位不用開嘛﹖學校不用開嘛﹖"},{"start":12043.274,"end":12059.778,"text":"醫療單位,可以不用企業的,你們本身就要去做評估啦。我再請教你一個問題,你覺得我們台灣有多少黑人?我說的黑人就是沒信心、沒服供的。呃,我想有一些頭衣的勞工。你覺得有這麼多人?我知道有這麼多人,頭衣勞工。不是頭衣喔,頭衣的我們是有的關喔,我們有他的資料喔。"},{"start":12072.662,"end":12089.057,"text":"我不是在跟你說討議的喔!討議的八九萬人喔!這是你定落的有八萬五千多的,但是實際的數字比這比較多!你...你會認同嗎?我...我沒有這個數字,我不知道你的數字從哪裡來的。我來講八萬五千多死的,是超過八萬五千多啦,這樣。你覺得這個討議外勞都在幹什麼?"},{"start":12098.517,"end":12101.899,"text":"因為很多事情,你都吃不贏,他也不一定第一時間幫你報告這麼多。"},{"start":12122.386,"end":12129.408,"text":"你知不知道我們這裡的頭衣外勞生有多少人?我跟你說的黑人就是這些人。你說如果是頭衣外勞生有多少人?這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…這…"},{"start":12151.194,"end":12151.734,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12178.134,"end":12200.252,"text":"投意外勞的報告,投意跟你講,我不用,我兩千三就好。他在看我合法的臺灣的這個冒頭拼啊,他也要自己去報啊,他也要先分,結果他拼了兩千三。這個發報的人,他竟然請了他啊。不知道八點準時準點四十來報到,啊你都抓沒有?你都沒得抓啊?"},{"start":12206.986,"end":12231.276,"text":"你都沒時間了!我現在跟你講這個新聞,他到底有信心了嗎?這我要認真來查緝啦齁,啊這這我沒跟你講過。你現在要趕緊有重金嗎?沒,沒跟你講過。報告委我們這個外移工的查緝,陶藝移工的查緝是移民署齁,會會同國安團隊一起來做,所以我們只要有接獲信的話我們也會去。"},{"start":12232.276,"end":12256.809,"text":"我現在就跟你說,港鐵啊,港鐵裡面就有這麼個無親民情的、逃逸的、每天在這裏,還兼做貓頭啦!他是包公給他,不是來做綱領的!啊,他是放我們台灣的貓頭,我們這個土木包公的,我還要去把大包拿小包,你聽到沒有?我還要再開發票給他,你聽到沒有?他不用發票,不用新聞,去放我旁邊啊!"},{"start":12258.54,"end":12281.518,"text":"請委員齁,我們只要這種情形,一檢舉我們一定會去查緝。我跟妳講,妳的檢舉獎金多少?一個平均沒到一萬,現在還有檢舉獎金嗎?討議外勞?這個可能要問移民署。因為今天不是移民署。平均啦齁。我跟妳講,平均一個人得到的檢舉獎金,獎金要到一萬塊啦。齁。"},{"start":12285.305,"end":12288.01,"text":"您在3日前來向那兩千多萬處理,等於說一檔抓不到一千個,一檔抓不到一千個,早起的很多。"},{"start":12296.786,"end":12319.164,"text":"您有在做,但是怎樣?是到底人力不足?人力不足沒有辦法去面對,還是政報銷聲,政案不足?我相信這樣啦,委員,今天你說的齁,我們合不保陷,你就是財政保不來,但是我會答應你齁,我答應你就是說,我要查這個勞工...這後面還有治安問題嘛,還有醫療問題嘛,很多好來。"},{"start":12324.455,"end":12340.627,"text":"我們這個勞動部你知道兩星期前喔,你去討論水庫,有一個22歲的年輕人去那裡做工,叫都市你知不知道?我知道,我有看到,我請問你,水庫在做工要塞船啊,他也沒教,為什麼要塞船啊?啊,我們這個動力船就對了齁,"},{"start":12352.573,"end":12374.361,"text":"因為你扣架腳,裡面有跟你約束你要怎麼救心,有人堵罪你要怎麼處理嘛,才能拿到這個架手這腳,他也沒有架腳,是怎麼他可以去洗嘴唇啊?阿造成一條死命,這是一個好處啦,他老爸在辛苦他都這樣照顧,結果你到東坡有去跟他聊天,你有針對這個特殊的,整個水庫都沒有蓋過,大家都不知道他怎麼堵死的。"},{"start":12383.578,"end":12405.789,"text":"阿瓜有蒙嘴口的主任,他有簡單說,他也沒人在乎你的報告就不會出了嘛,你都這樣嗎?是,是。阿剛才說人沒有他,現在就是說你對這個特殊行業、特殊的工程、法保你怎麼那麼獨特的啊?你沒辦法咧?你都知道說的,我是聽人家說的喔。"},{"start":12408.991,"end":12417.357,"text":"沒有這回事喔?發言委員沒有這回事?沒有啦!我知道你已經說沒有嘛!確實沒有這回事啊!民進黨我伯爺也很多人嘛!我跟妳說啦齁!我不是跟妳說一定有啦!屁阿免有這種的啦!"},{"start":12430.081,"end":12432.462,"text":"勞動監督還用政敵介入就對了?"},{"start":12432.462,"end":12442.01,"text":"不可能啦我會說他一定不理會說你年紀這麼好這麼高,你獨特的這個補費,如果還有這種情形,我是很不依偎的我如果說勞動部有這麼要用政治的方式來做勞動檢查,我一定跟他要求說這一定是不行的"},{"start":12451.991,"end":12453.072,"text":"這人就是我們內行,內行就知道要找什麼人"},{"start":12473.288,"end":12474.248,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12497.93,"end":12503.446,"text":"我請教你這段時間你有要求施耀書說將對這的食品安全擴大去檢查嗎?"},{"start":12506.536,"end":12513.199,"text":"有啊,這個檢查的問題就是若蘇丹紅的辣椒粉這件事,是最終我們是發言...我現在是說針對其他的食品當然都有電機在檢查啊我們比較緊張這一個月來你有擴大去做嗎?"},{"start":12530.987,"end":12544.576,"text":"該委員報告,我們第一階段就是為政靠六個月來可能造成這個計劃。我本來今天是要送你,想說你最好一半在這,我要拿一份報告給你,因為我不能這麼說,因為要考慮嘛,要不然,如果那個市協會又污染到,壞掉人的產品,有可能企業會倒嘛,對不對?"},{"start":12556.351,"end":12576.14,"text":"所以我報告出來的時候,我會盯著你。我意思是說,你要擴大去檢查啦。不能只有酒精有白的這,在這個對象,其他的產品有白的,應該在這個時候要做筆跡的責任。我同意啦,我同意,我聽到。你如果有什麼..."},{"start":12581.792,"end":12581.932,"text":"感謝你"},{"start":12599.537,"end":12600.017,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":12640.29,"end":12656.775,"text":"謝謝謝委員龍介的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告委員會,上午的質詢到此為止。本次會議為委員提出臨時提案。我們就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":21072.233,"end":21091.16,"text":"報告願會,現在我們繼續開會。接下來我們請黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請那個行政院長跟衛福部長。麻煩請陳院長及衛福部備詢。黃衛福官,恭喜你當選立委。"},{"start":21100.85,"end":21127.782,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果"},{"start":21128.422,"end":21145.339,"text":"那走到了現在我認為接下來我們應該要討論一下人工生殖的部分也就是性別權益最後的一塊拼圖也應該要把它拼起來那首先我想要請教一下院長您認為生育權是不是憲法所保障的權利之一應該是"},{"start":21146.295,"end":21172.472,"text":"沒錯這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起"},{"start":21173.627,"end":21198.083,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權"},{"start":21199.11,"end":21225.788,"text":"那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對"},{"start":21227.509,"end":21253.843,"text":"當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭"},{"start":21254.904,"end":21263.102,"text":"然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?"},{"start":21264.564,"end":21285.445,"text":"這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案啦好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待"},{"start":21287.347,"end":21312.264,"text":"那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影"},{"start":21312.904,"end":21329.772,"text":"或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情"},{"start":21330.592,"end":21345.194,"text":"那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組"},{"start":21346.195,"end":21361.721,"text":"的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低"},{"start":21362.521,"end":21390.147,"text":"那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在"},{"start":21391.291,"end":21417.669,"text":"重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的所以根據以上這些主張我想要問一下我們現在行政院有沒有在準備我們人工生殖板的修法如果有的話大概什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":21419.251,"end":21443.087,"text":"這個確實是有,我們請部長簡單回答一下。目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會,在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會舉行。把這些意見都收集出來之後,我們的版本就會送到行政院去。"},{"start":21444.49,"end":21467.404,"text":"我們預計我們院板大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來"},{"start":21468.584,"end":21496.834,"text":"我們一旦送到行政院來我們會請政委來加速審查來加速來出行政院好謝謝院長謝謝部長希望就是如期的如你們所說的上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來好那再來我要請教一下部長囉因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈創作圈的陳情那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢是這關於這個兒校虛擬的部分"},{"start":21497.654,"end":21514.831,"text":"那看一下這個iWIN的爭議喔 這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢 兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像 然後呢 這個函式發了之後12月"},{"start":21515.612,"end":21541.272,"text":"IWIN就接到檢舉了說喔PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說喔這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的"},{"start":21542.273,"end":21561.107,"text":"具體的這個範圍不明的情況下大家不知道該如何示好那首先我先請問一下部長現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼"},{"start":21562.209,"end":21580.607,"text":"當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。"},{"start":21581.738,"end":21605.157,"text":"是的部長其實剛剛提到兩個部分我剛剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險"},{"start":21606.209,"end":21614.2,"text":"那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪"},{"start":21615.202,"end":21636.619,"text":"那我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為"},{"start":21637.399,"end":21657.518,"text":"他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加注在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥"},{"start":21658.559,"end":21673.531,"text":"部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量"},{"start":21674.292,"end":21698.358,"text":"如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的"},{"start":21699.358,"end":21723.148,"text":"那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據"},{"start":21724.569,"end":21745.156,"text":"那其實以你們現在的主張阿你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯因為你認為他只要畫了他只要散佈了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖你就犯法了然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕"},{"start":21746.135,"end":21764.063,"text":"因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險"},{"start":21765.143,"end":21765.404,"text":"怎麼說?我們來看下一張圖。"},{"start":21782.386,"end":21800.111,"text":"看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬"},{"start":21800.751,"end":21818.785,"text":"那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面"},{"start":21819.705,"end":21847.403,"text":"再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面"},{"start":21848.524,"end":21870.413,"text":"他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法"},{"start":21872.694,"end":21890.792,"text":"好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。"},{"start":21891.272,"end":21911.728,"text":"只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼"},{"start":21912.168,"end":21935.458,"text":"如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎"},{"start":21937.059,"end":21954.137,"text":"這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護"},{"start":21955.111,"end":21981.836,"text":"一定要這些犯罪一定要打擊到底絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害這個是前提但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童"},{"start":21982.216,"end":22005.382,"text":"他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施"},{"start":22026.235,"end":22028.276,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。謝謝院長。有請陳院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":22063.471,"end":22085.443,"text":"謝謝院長那關係上週五質詢的時候有提到行政院的穩定物價小組那接著那天晚上就看到新聞稿有指出那包括密切觀察清明節農產及民生物資的價量情勢那等等那就看到當天晚上新聞稿就上了"},{"start":22086.338,"end":22114.142,"text":"但是本席還是要反映的就是說因為那時候是記得一段時間都沒有放因為不一定每個月開會那放了之後到最後是只有兩頁只有兩頁的一個會議紀錄那所以也難怪大家對於目前行政院穩定物價小組在這個穩定物價的一個功能跟速度上大家當然是民眾會感到擔憂那所以說在這裡還是要特別的在"},{"start":22114.878,"end":22115.338,"text":"我會請這個物價小組在"},{"start":22138.928,"end":22158.783,"text":"就如同委員所鼓勵的我們繼續努力把物價穩定當作是一個很重要的一個工作而且在未來的這個紀錄上能夠稍微更詳細一點那個結論摘要可以理解但是要及時因為民眾其實大家還是會非常的重視今年會不會是漲字當頭漲注是關鍵字好"},{"start":22162.145,"end":22183.151,"text":"那謝謝院長那接著再回到漲價這一題臺電確定要漲價11%還不用說小戶用電會不會影響不管是一個麵包的產生從運送到製造配送販賣通通都跟電有關係百分之百都會受到影響但是先前講到漲健保的這一塊不知道會不會調漲"},{"start":22184.369,"end":22204.698,"text":"那就是請教院長跟部長在醫院跟診所那24小時的有12小時營運的診所也有但是因為像這些的醫院跟診所他們這環境有許多重要的藥物藥品包括疫苗他們其實都需要一個冷藏設備需要維持他疫苗的活性所以這個用電的漲價這個一定會受到牽連"},{"start":22207.839,"end":22219.529,"text":"那想先請教一下部長,針對診所、小型醫院會不會採取電費的補助?怎麼補助還能夠讓我們的民眾不會因為這個漲健保費受到影響?"},{"start":22220.861,"end":22246.778,"text":"從我們初步的一個估計那大型的醫院他這一次電價的調漲對他們的成本的影響大概是在0.5到1%這樣但是小醫院就比較高大概會影響2%到3%那診所來講的話目前看起來影響並不大因為他大部分都是屬於住家型的一個用電"},{"start":22247.83,"end":22277.083,"text":"那事實上他用電的強度也沒那麼高那就直接請教部長因為在南投縣算是偏鄉那其實在這個數據資料我也有醫學中心是0.5到1%地區醫院是2到4%還部立醫院不同那臺北桃園的跟偏鄉的這個比例也都不同那就想要直接就教部長那目前針對這個小型醫院跟診所的部分在因為用電的部分那漲價了那補助的部分"},{"start":22277.948,"end":22297.755,"text":"還照顧的部分要如何進行以及健保分會會不會調漲所以這個部分的話那行政院是要做一個通盤的檢討那我就直接請教院長那這個可不可以做一個宣誓性的部分會針對醫院跟診所來進行補貼基本上是這樣子如果說我們調漲"},{"start":22298.695,"end":22321.032,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":22321.032,"end":22321.692,"text":"因為坦白講這個切衣法動全身"},{"start":22338.138,"end":22358.806,"text":"那其實我講一下明天這個副院長還是會請這個相關的單位再來做一次的討論但是基本上我們是要看他的占比是多少好沒關係那我還是在這裡本席還是要提出因為我也要為地方的診所包括我們的醫院來發聲那因為這種漲電價牽引法的動權聲"},{"start":22363.499,"end":22385.354,"text":"那勢必一定會增加他們的成本那如果說在一個可以的預算之下那也會希望說行政院也要體恤這些醫療機構他們在地方上面不是因為醫療機構他就一定是比較富有而是他們在所做的其實還是在照顧我們地方上的鄉親那如果說在這個比例上面可以的情況之下"},{"start":22385.956,"end":22392.998,"text":"但是我還是在強調要看它的佔營運成本的百分比是多少來做決定那這個本來就是應該要這樣看這個我可以理解但是因為"},{"start":22405.442,"end":22407.344,"text":"因為這個聲音還是要被聽到還是要被重視,這樣子合理吧?"},{"start":22432.298,"end":22443.83,"text":"那另外的話再補貼電價那不僅是醫院他們可能因為這樣子受到影響那我們是本席是不希望這樣子的成本是轉嫁到病患的身上"},{"start":22445.038,"end":22464.419,"text":"我剛才講過我們希望因為他的漲幅很小所以應該他可以自行吸收那同樣的除了醫療機構之外那我們是希望窮人不要走向一個他沒有生病的權利壓垮他們窮人的有時候並不是病痛而是後面他所負擔的一個經濟壓力"},{"start":22465.8,"end":22481.836,"text":"那所以除了醫療診所、醫院診所之外本席要幫另外一個團體請命就是在目前來講的話許多的社福團體、育幼院、老人照護機構那其實在所謂的高通房、高電價、高消費的情況之下其實像現在來講"},{"start":22483.018,"end":22512.155,"text":"大家對於社福團體的捐贈的一個意願來講他們其實是比起以前在疫情以前是比較低的委員那個社福團體已經排除漲價排除漲價對早就是在那個經濟部的宣布當中有沒有問題因為排除漲價的話那就至少針對社福團體的部分那能夠進行照顧讓他們善的循環可以持續上漲甚至還希望外府部包括行政院"},{"start":22512.415,"end":22529.206,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22529.326,"end":22548.095,"text":"那所以說我覺得社福團體要照顧他們才能夠去照顧在這個整個不管是物價上漲的情況疫情之後的情況他們才能夠去幫助更多的人所以除了是電價電價的部分是排除了這是我其中一小題但是另外本席在這裡也希望衛福部包括行政院可以特別針對"},{"start":22549.036,"end":22574.851,"text":"社福團體的照顧上能夠有一些方案,這樣子同意吧?同意,那看你的方案是什麼?實際上在社福的團體或者長照的這邊的話,政府一向是不予一例。比如說馬前總統的時候,他的那個長照只有不到45億,但是我們現在已經編列了800多億了。所以在社福的,還有社福的預算,我們也增加了"},{"start":22575.431,"end":22601.861,"text":"這一個按照CPI的增加增加的期限。我要跟院長講你剛才所說的這些內容馬英九總統時期那是起步啊那時候的長照的長照的法規那時候我在當國會助理的時候我也有幫蔡景龍委員跟吳彥文起草過那時候的草野是國民黨執政所以也受到那時候民進黨的委員諸多的一個訪談跟反對所以這過程我知道所以馬英九那時候執政時期他通過了之後"},{"start":22602.441,"end":22614.446,"text":"有個開頭後面才能夠持續的再有長昭2.0之後的一個成長所以我覺得我在這裡還是要肯定一下馬英九總統好那接著問一下我們地方的議題有關部長就是"},{"start":22615.35,"end":22639.886,"text":"醫學中心及重度急救責任醫院的服務獎勵計畫那在12年12月31日止那時候有停止那現在來講再開啟下一個階段的計畫那我想請問一下部長針對南投部立醫院我們現在的南投醫院要來做提升那部長您的看法如何以及您的支持的程度如何"},{"start":22641.447,"end":22645.549,"text":"目前是往重度急救責任醫院的方向去走,但是這恐怕也沒有辦法一觸可及。"},{"start":22657.876,"end":22682.803,"text":"所以有一些比較可以必要性比較強的部分,比方說在...沒關係,我就直接問部長重點好了。希望您能夠全力的支持部立醫院,因為那有關於我們南投縣徐東縣民。那知識衛專科醫生是他們目前所欠缺的,這個對於衛福部來講應該是可以來去協助的,可以吧?"},{"start":22687.53,"end":22700.718,"text":"有你的這句話我相信在未來來講的安投不立院的升級相信我相信對於部內的一個人員來講就是提升很大的信心謝謝那接著老東部長部長謝謝"},{"start":22713.864,"end":22735.603,"text":"部長,剛才跟你一起走進來,我那時候就很想先問你,目前來講移工的部分有關於這個逃逸外勞8萬3千多人,那目前來講所進行的一個如何改善的措施,請監督回答一下。報告委員,其實我們大概因為針對一些缺工的產業,比如說像農業、民間營造業,那我們這個"},{"start":22738.826,"end":22740.227,"text":"那剩下的將近六、七萬人那現在如何處理?"},{"start":22766.66,"end":22787.375,"text":"報告委員這個部分當然我們跟那個就是移民署會持續會統國安團隊跟勞動部我們一起來持續來查緝我大致上我補充一下因為我還是會比較鼓勵說對於這種討議外勞的部分我們還是要去關注這個資訊的傳遞"},{"start":22789.48,"end":22809.895,"text":"當然像現有的能夠具有這個成績之外還有許多能夠再列在案的包括黑術那在這個問題的話是在於說政策措施的傳遞其實他們並不看得到他們黑工不會看新聞他也不會等著勞動部的措施所以我還是要勉勵勞動部對於這個移工問題大家所擔心的"},{"start":22810.715,"end":22823.733,"text":"不能飛就用跑的不能跑就用走的不能走也用爬的不管如何還是要持續針對這個議題來去積極改善那我直接接著就叫大家關心的就是最低工資審議委員會在Q3的時候會進行討論"},{"start":22827.197,"end":22845.808,"text":"那在這次的大選三個總統候選人通通都有提出還希望的一個調漲的一個目標那目前來講我國最低工資在27470那時薪是183那我想直接就叫在今年的CPI超過2%央行最新預測也在2.16%今年有沒有機會調漲的時候以3萬元為目標"},{"start":22851.951,"end":22876.281,"text":"報告委員齁,因為這個我們的基本工資的條款...這是賴總統提的喔!蛤?賴總統他也有提這個3萬目標喔!對,我想這個是我們的目標喔!我也有提3萬3啦!對,我們這個3萬是我們的目標,我們一定會持續往這個目標來前進,但是我要跟委員說,這個部分就是最低工資的委員齁,審議委員會他們去開會決定,那包括說相關的...那我要的其實沒關係,部長,這個勞動體系我很清楚喔,那我直接請教院長,"},{"start":22880.743,"end":22899.174,"text":"以這個3萬元為目標,時薪能夠以這200元為目標,在今年往這個方向努力可不可以?我們當然是希望能夠在最低工資的這一個部分努力來全力以赴,但是我仍然支持部長的想法。"},{"start":22899.514,"end":22901.516,"text":"但是我最主要是想說院長跟部長還是有一個目標在"},{"start":22920.936,"end":22929.604,"text":"大家總是在討論的時候大家在研究的時候比較可以往這方向來聚焦嘛當然如果說以CPI講到2.03%對啦越來越好那所以183再加個2%的話以200為目標有沒有機會"},{"start":22936.92,"end":22937.52,"text":"我本席還是要在這裡反映"},{"start":22954.432,"end":22955.493,"text":"我們個人都不能夠同意"},{"start":22980.316,"end":22981.616,"text":"謝謝委員的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第12號蘇委員侵權質詢。謝謝,謝謝院長。我們請陳院長。"},{"start":23007.566,"end":23018.491,"text":"再請陳院長備詢。再請衛福部備詢。主委,午安。我要跟我們院長還有學部長,因為你責貴副總統、責貴衛生署署長,所以醫療你非常的內行,學部長更不用講。"},{"start":23037.844,"end":23052.191,"text":"因為挺感謝這不管朝野這幾天都看到他們非常關心醫界,好像醫界敲眼了。好,院長,你看到這韓國,這是韓國。這因為他們對這個醫學生有一些要檢查嘛,但是醫學生有抗議。我研究韓國這次的問題蠻嚴重,而且他有80%跟台灣雷同。"},{"start":23067.196,"end":23073.406,"text":"但是他們的總統我覺得很另類,他不去跟北韓對幹,只能跟自己的醫護人員來對幹。"},{"start":23075.717,"end":23075.737,"text":"院長"},{"start":23103.54,"end":23127.433,"text":"一間廣東飯店,一間四千幾個,一間便宜,包括副流的都加起來,一間青銅庫,再來。你選名,那些人沒多少,大伯也有很多人。選一間名,月八到四千。換一個名,兩百幾個,我看都兩百幾個,有三百幾個。"},{"start":23131.843,"end":23132.988,"text":"您的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":23136.704,"end":23137.564,"text":"好,那接著你看"},{"start":23165.769,"end":23191.025,"text":"這個是健保署公布出來的data各位看到我們臺大醫院早上很多委員談了臺大醫院院長說他的決議1%然後他主要的收入是來自於美食街停車場捐贈像林口長庚他就是靠他的股票股利他的本業還虧錢"},{"start":23193.069,"end":23218.717,"text":"所以這個是不應該,你這樣一直要要求醫界要有韌性,請問某幾名要有韌性,這就緊張他不會了。下一張。我想陳院長你也很厲害,那成本控制啦等等等等,但是我們跟韓國一樣,醫學生不要選內外婦兒。"},{"start":23220.472,"end":23226.618,"text":"我們這裡跟韓國幾乎一模一樣,他們的醫師數8萬多,我們的醫師數5萬多,那現在醫學每年遭受差不多3000多位,我們說1500,那現在要加到一年要收5000多個,所以整個都變胖。"},{"start":23248.061,"end":23268.706,"text":"議事分配不精、偏鄉不足等等。我們台灣在家鄉的健保是用總額預算,每年要結清。議長,他自己的要求不足,一點一口,最少要0.95,不然他不會下去。"},{"start":23275.816,"end":23300.993,"text":"前幾天那個副理前任會來找我他說他們希望新進的副律師70萬70萬然後資深的希望每個月的薪資能9萬到10萬那其他醫事相關放射檢驗等等那都要去啊醫生已經15年沒去沒薪水沒條件15年喔齁"},{"start":23303.215,"end":23304.055,"text":"委員長,有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":23323.567,"end":23333.603,"text":"有這部分醫事人員的行職、會醫師的部分,你說的包括護理師還有其他的部分,衛福部實際上有一個計畫要再進行,請部長簡單講一下。"},{"start":23338.454,"end":23365.729,"text":"首先是護理師的部分的話,那我們會推出一個護理繁重加急的這個計畫。那這個計畫目前正在規劃,看今年有沒有機會去執行。然後其他醫事人員的部分,那這個當然還要再做一些估算。晚上我們那個廖委員他提了一個發展特別條例,我給你拍一張我看。"},{"start":23368.288,"end":23396.116,"text":"那個是比較難但是呢我要跟你報告我們這幾戶偏低重鎮沒人要走還河山還要放大沒人這樣啦薪水可以打折嗎?你在這邊宣示薪水可以打折嗎?馬上出去放鞭炮行嘛 對不對所以我希望我們要來搞個總額不要用總額預算總額改成目標制"},{"start":23397.316,"end":23401.057,"text":"我相信委員你很清楚,這個點數、點值、總額預算是多少,這不只是為政府這邊來的"},{"start":23427.034,"end":23427.915,"text":"我們的總統是醫生聖章科"},{"start":23455.051,"end":23476.917,"text":"護產科的部長,然後你是公衛,這個時候是最好,然後大家要那麼關心,然後醫療真的要很差,這個時候好好地把總額6%往上拉,再來你說把長照要納進來,就把它納進來啊,長照保險法沒有辦法單獨立法,我們就把它納到健保法裡面,"},{"start":23479.451,"end":23479.471,"text":"委員會議員議員議員"},{"start":23509.175,"end":23524.763,"text":"希望變報告到明天就先到,今天很多,我們很多委員都在退醫療院所發生,你動載的有榮譽、有社福,你不太要把醫療放進去,我們已經去32%了,今年又去11%、15%了,那整個地方真的很嚴重。"},{"start":23533.172,"end":23538.255,"text":"委員長,你有沒有看過醫學中心的保溫是0.5到1%,區域、地區醫院是2到3%,偏遠的小醫院是4%。你也說它這樣4%對整個全體營運成本會有多少的影響。當然我也知道這個醫療機構是最大的辛苦,我也感謝他們照顧著民眾的健康,但是"},{"start":23561.129,"end":23586.457,"text":"這個補助的問題就要看過政府的電力了。再來前幾天我們衛福部把這個國安會上線給取消。吼,不是很好嗎?部長,你很要事耶。比較有可能的一國安會沒有上線,結果引起百姓,我們在基層聽到,大家都買到要死。啊昨天的你把醫界推到百姓的對立面,這很糟糕耶,沒有人這樣做的啦。部長。"},{"start":23588.676,"end":23598.64,"text":"委員你的意思是說不可以限制,不可以管你以前只是報備而已,結果每一個衛生局都幫你做審查但是我們與法無據啊因為那些衛生局不讓醫療機構他們自己去決定嘛我感覺"},{"start":23616.297,"end":23616.818,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":23633.112,"end":23638.154,"text":"所以我再問一下,委員的意思是說不應該這樣做,所以那個國會一樣要限制是不是這樣?一樣由縣市政府來規範。反正應該被查變成審查喔?"},{"start":23660.247,"end":23665.692,"text":"對阿,審查、補湯阿,那是醫院管理費,那是醫療機構的行政管理費齁,不應該蓋健保座,環境部...四分鐘而已喔,趕快說"},{"start":23683.837,"end":23710.062,"text":"委員長,你高雄人,你看我們現在的家鄉面這樣,這是鹽埔啦,這一張,這是林綠啦,你看看,都紅紅的,這個這種光電怎麼有辦法將來要復耕啦,在下面,你知道這個長青苔,這樣東一塊西一塊,現在有在限制了,那個寸草不生啦,你看這整個都"},{"start":23713.26,"end":23736.679,"text":"喔 這個更誇張齁 好 再下一張 再下那個 環境部學部長 你的看案啦給所有人報告 事實上我們現在的環評法裡面齁 針對光電這一塊事實上只有重要失地 但是我們已經聽到聲音 所以現在在進行整個修法的"},{"start":23738.187,"end":23738.848,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23749.528,"end":23749.828,"text":"議員長．實話實現自己的證據。"},{"start":23770.336,"end":23770.956,"text":"這是人在抗爭的"},{"start":23798.752,"end":23803.14,"text":"這皮你看到沒有,這皮就是要去坤町車廂,你看,說行政院說這是美麗的天際線,這美麗的天際線,看有沒有透過啊。"},{"start":23812.915,"end":23816.197,"text":"這裡啦,這裡是老闢農場,剩底後的六七百公頃的灰下去做公安店。"},{"start":23843.735,"end":23867.621,"text":"你茶葉生產的品質很好耶!六、七百公頃耶!下一張。而且我聽到很多施工的單位來跟我澄清。欸!沈院長你可能沒聽過。你的光電補佐的那些能源大廠,那大老闆,立在後面,燙到叭叭叭,這些廠商,水電的啦、營造的啦、土木的。"},{"start":23872.915,"end":23892.817,"text":"沒有時間可以做好也沒有時間。做好在發展啊,已經在嘆息啊,也沒有時間。外界這些承包商還要面對百姓的成抗跟糾紛,然後拿不到錢,然後倒閉。這是另類喔。你去捧那些大老闆。"},{"start":23894.096,"end":23894.476,"text":"我以為是少數,結果是大多數。"},{"start":23915.842,"end":23926.373,"text":"所以這些光臨的就真的不可以胡亂曬,要去打大老闆,我這也強烈的跟他們譴責。希望部長跟院長可以查看看。我們來清查。"},{"start":23931.421,"end":23950.077,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李昆城委員之質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。再接下來我們請登記第14號蘇委員巧會質詢。"},{"start":23960.572,"end":23964.077,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請陳建仁、陳院長。再請陳院長備詢。市委,午安。"},{"start":23971.155,"end":24000.094,"text":"院長好,今天是蔡英文總統任內院長最後一次來院會進行總質詢所以我想在今天開始詢答前我要先跟院長說辛苦了這一年四個月真的是不容易而且我想其實在座不只是陳院長陳院長甚至是用不同身份在這八年當中副總統、院長和整個行政團隊包括在座許明春部長、薛瑞元部長甚至是李孟彥秘書長等"},{"start":24001.295,"end":24001.555,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵"},{"start":24026.525,"end":24052.658,"text":"不過責任在繼續啊所以就跟院長就教尤其是我過去四年都是在未還我想用這個經驗跟院長討論因為現在正是在編列明年預算概算的時候所以很多的政策齁其實都是牽涉到錢的問題我想一個立法委員在這裡如果有想要推動的事情不外乎兩種方法第一個是跟行政院來討論甚至拜託能不能增加公務預算"},{"start":24053.698,"end":24077.336,"text":"那另外一個其實就是看既有的預算當中能不能調挪嘛這其實不太可能是一個委員去編列什麼特別預算條例這樣子的狀況這是不可能發生的事情啊所以我們以衛福部為例衛福部今年113年的預算我看公務預算是3384億現在正在編列明年的那如果跟他非常相關的是健保經費的這個部分那113年是8755億"},{"start":24080.899,"end":24105.74,"text":"所以將這麼多的錢來講那我們有哪一些新的事情要推動這是我今天最想救教的我個人關心的新的事物有幾個第一個是剛剛很多委員也已經討論過的關於癌症防治的部分尤其是新藥的部分那新藥的部分其實我從上一屆我就提出了這個癌症防治法希望推動的是癌症新藥基金"},{"start":24106.48,"end":24134.491,"text":"我認為用基金才會是一個根本解決問題的狀況就是另外有一筆財源來處理但現在不管是行政院或部內這邊提出的是一個這個暫時性支付啦老師說有這個暫時性支付也很好因為這樣的狀況已經讓像今年的這個新藥有增加31件擴增幾部藥物是24件直接比去年成長了82%這個速度是增加了非常的快現在是61"},{"start":24135.091,"end":24153.071,"text":"好可是會有兩個問題阿兩個問題的話第一個就是說那如果到時候這個新藥真的過了那這個過的新藥是回去繼續佔健保的總額嗎這是第一個那大家就會擔心那總額是不是因為這些藥都通常比較貴嘛那所以這個是不是排擠了大家的狀況"},{"start":24154.472,"end":24157.993,"text":"當然如果在暫時性支付這段時間的話主要是看他的藥的療效是否如預期"},{"start":24183.801,"end":24195.599,"text":"對如果他符合預期的話那就會變成一個是在總額裡面嘛那就回到會不會佔因為總額大家已經在覺得少不夠用了啊對不對總額不夠用就是總額要成長"},{"start":24196.954,"end":24220.353,"text":"所以這一個問題你也承認是會回到總額去而且總額就會佔了嘛那老實講啦以現在來講的話我看今年這個現在的這個新藥的部分啊2022年的癌症藥物費用在健保已經佔了13.1%了那每年平均的成長是10%比我們平均總額的成長4%是高兩倍"},{"start":24221.053,"end":24242.568,"text":"所以現在的用藥就已經是比總額多兩倍了那如果新藥繼續進來那不就吃掉更多新藥不會有那麼快但是我們就是希望他快啊這個要看醫學的進步還是會有一個速率沒有關係因為我們現在在討論的總目標還是說那錢夠不夠"},{"start":24245.33,"end":24245.35,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":24261.664,"end":24265.948,"text":"我希望行政院能夠考慮在沒有成立基金之前這個錢就像剛剛院長聽到的這已經是第一個需要很多預算的部分了好癌症新藥"},{"start":24283.306,"end":24307.927,"text":"第二個也會用到很多錢的部分我也是跟薛部長在未完委員會討論非常多次我的觀念很簡單就是在這幾年尤其COVID-19之下我們很清楚的看到在保衛疆土的是三軍但是在守衛國人健康的就是醫事人員啊所以投資醫事人員就是投資國民健康嘛"},{"start":24308.553,"end":24322.57,"text":"所以要怎麼讓他們覺得我們的工作是有價值的有代價的而且是值得的這真的是最重要的一件事情所以大家在講的其實到最後就是要講健保點值的這個部分"},{"start":24323.268,"end":24342.773,"text":"﹗"},{"start":24342.833,"end":24370.33,"text":"院長部內這邊也已經幫忙了嘛第一是撥補公務預算100億進去第二把健保總額裡面那個破裡面有一些拿掉了一個是C肝的房子一個是艾滋的房子這樣也大概100億所以就挪出了200億嘛恰恰好是我最想部長這些我都是說給院長聽的啦我都是說給院長聽的恰恰好這個200億就是我們在看最常被忽略的"},{"start":24371.391,"end":24396.88,"text":"在健保總額給付裡面的診療費、診察費這種勞務費用因為你藥物的部分你都不能砍他定得很死啊所以總額又要給藥的錢又要給醫師這些勞務費用那能夠做的是什麼藥不能動那就只好勞務變動算一算多少一年大概就是189億、190億大概就是200億所以你今年做了200億的"},{"start":24398.3,"end":24399.201,"text":"還沒開始預計預計"},{"start":24415.529,"end":24430.113,"text":"這要跟這個行政院這邊爭取這個預算編列,因為一定要公務預算先去付這筆錢,那個才挪得出來。那你看部長,我答應你的有做到,我在總質詢的時候再一次提出了,我認為這個政策這個方向是對的。"},{"start":24439.075,"end":24465.362,"text":"醫事人員所有的在為民眾把關的醫事人員他的勞務費用是其實是最不應該被減少的一部分嘛那如果我們現在因為健保總額制我的這個部分總額沒有辦法動的狀況下那我要怎麼來讓這個勞務的費用是穩定的那坦白講就是只有公務預算撥補的這個部分是最實際的部分啊"},{"start":24465.862,"end":24484.643,"text":"好,所以當時我們聽到了這樣子的一個撲普,甚至是挪開健保的給付等等的這部分,兩百億,我們也覺得非常好,非常有道理,全力支持。所以今天在這裡特別提出,同時要問第一院長,所以你現在院長在這裡了。"},{"start":24485.924,"end":24498.013,"text":"當時部長也說他往這個方向在爭取,院長那今天你在這裡你可以有正面的答案了嗎?我想我們當然是支持這樣的一個方式,但是我們也會請主席總書來盤,盤看看所有的經費會多少。"},{"start":24501.355,"end":24519.451,"text":"那剛才談到的那一些公共衛生或者是傳染病治療等等的經費用公務預算來做然後呢讓健保有挪出一部分的錢來使得醫護人員的這個薪資呢能夠有所調整那這一個部分我想我們會往這個方向來發展"},{"start":24520.812,"end":24548.525,"text":"這一個謝謝委員的很寶貴的建議院長我實在是希望你在這裡你剛剛說我們會往這個方向來發展我其實希望可以有更肯定更強烈的肯定答案因為我去年你會這樣做這句話要記起來一定要記起來喔上面這個記者這部分一定要媒體要記起來院長表示會朝這個方向做為什麼因為我去年11月在質詢部長的時候部長說他一直在打電話給主記長啊"},{"start":24550.086,"end":24578.652,"text":"打電話打到主席長都不接他電話了哈所以我今天特別在這裡跟你說明的是我認為這是一個對的方向而且應該要這樣做甚至我還認為啦這種公用預算的撥補在法制還沒有改變之前我也會提出全民健保法的修法認為在醫事人員的勞務費用這個部分應該要能夠讓他穩定的達標這是我認為應該要有的方向所以我負責任的提出修法"},{"start":24579.352,"end":24596.784,"text":"這是我可以做的但行政院我甚至認為這個撥補應該常態化這是我的主張請院長參考但至少你答應今年會這樣做其實我剛才講的傳染病、公共衛生這一些的經費如果"},{"start":24598.268,"end":24619.206,"text":"﹗"},{"start":24619.486,"end":24623.668,"text":"另外第三題,其實兒童節快要到了。其實兒科醫師現在也是大聲在疾呼。當時部長上任的第一件事情就是要守護兒科醫師,讓兒科醫師的人力可以不流失。"},{"start":24646.337,"end":24666.727,"text":"所以其實這邊在講的,兒科醫師也在呼籲啊,0到6歲的兒童門診及住院的部分負擔費用可以免除。0到6歲兒童基層門診、加護病房及急重症健保加成。坦白講這些都是他們的主張,但是合不合理,我也認為合理啊。"},{"start":24668.008,"end":24682.079,"text":"這樣這一些事務可以有穩定的裁員其實就是對兒科醫師最好的人才留志的部分啊所以你看講一、二、三其實都已經是預算的部分了所以我在這裡齁"},{"start":24683.16,"end":24706.605,"text":"因為過去的4年確確實實剛好在疫情的期間整個都在未完可以看得出來醫事人員對國家的重要我實在是認為今年概算在編的時候衛福部要多一點啦真的是要多一點啦該給的就要給足啦這個兒科的照顧這個是很重要而且衛福部本身就有一個優化兒童醫療照顧計畫啦你簡單講一下給委員放心一下"},{"start":24711.857,"end":24726.794,"text":"委員這剛剛提出來後面的這已經在做健保加成這今年已經有加成上去已經加加成上去最近來通過那至於說門診住院的部分負擔免除這個還是要算一下"},{"start":24727.595,"end":24727.615,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":24744.156,"end":24765.32,"text":"我支持所有的計畫應該要攤開來看甚至不只是衛福部要把自己所有的計畫因為我們也不是只有講兒科啊我們剛剛已經從癌症、心藥一直到醫事人員一直到兒科這還是我能夠列舉的三項而已其實我們有更多的項目本來我們在做的工作就是國家資源怎麼配置嘛"},{"start":24765.7,"end":24779.601,"text":"所以衛福部有衛福部的資源配置甚至是到行政院的層次的時候是國家整個資源怎麼配置的部分啊所以這當然應該攤開來看輕重緩急啊只是我在這裡利用可以跟院長討論政策的時間"},{"start":24781.824,"end":24796.949,"text":"我要大聲疾呼今年我實在是強力的支持衛福部的預算應該要衛福部的概算應該要能夠更為增加讓醫事人員在辛苦的這段時間之後可以覺得得到國家的支持"},{"start":24797.529,"end":24817.171,"text":"這是我最大的出發點至於怎麼配置合理專業當然交由部和行政院做最後的決定但我在這裡表示我的意見這是第一個關於預算配置的部分第二個我也其實還想說其實衛福部也擔了很多的責任比如說我們最大的國安問題之一少子化"},{"start":24818.072,"end":24844.312,"text":"少子化的問題不是只壓在衛福部一個部上面而已它其實是各個部會都應該要有這個概念可以來配合我看到日本啊2023年就是去年而已12月提出的這個少子化的戰略其實是每個部門都有動起來那我因為時間不多我舉一個最簡單的例子就好了比如說我們在今天之外社會住宅"},{"start":24845.272,"end":24865.026,"text":"社會住宅它的抽籤以及入住率還有它的入住時間是不是有機會可以配合著育兒也就是有嬰幼兒學齡前兒童甚至是小學三年級之前的學童他們有入學學籍的問題耶我今天如果住到這裡剛好年限滿了那我是不是要跳走"},{"start":24865.946,"end":24874.894,"text":"這就是其中的手段之一所以我認為各部會都應該共同來擔這個國家策略我覺得這才是合理正確的"},{"start":24890.181,"end":24909.956,"text":"謝謝蘇委員巧會的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第15號王委員正續質詢。謝謝韓院長。有請院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":24921.73,"end":24945.758,"text":"院長好。謝謝您當年給我的證書。這是幫助很多年輕學子進入到這個生命科學領域一本很重要的著作。特別令人感動的就是在書本上有閱讀到了您的父親在您晉升教授的時候提供給您的期許和祝福。"},{"start":24946.977,"end":24976.566,"text":"現正您後來在學術上擔任的中央研究院的院士在政治上也擔任的副總統現在又擔任行政院長的工作相信大部分的民眾會和我一樣衷心的感謝您對台灣人民的全心全力的付出您的父親應該也會讚許您的成就或許他也會捨不得您現在的辛苦"},{"start":24977.864,"end":24981.508,"text":"接下來還是要利用這次總質詢的機會來就教您三個認為是重要的問題。"},{"start":24998.356,"end":25024.862,"text":"一個是癌症防治的篩檢問題一個是癌症信號基金已經有很多委員都提過另外就是我們可以研議是否能夠成立國家阿比肝防治辦公室這三個問題那癌症防治尤其在篩檢的部分是有它很重要的角色您是這方面的專家應該很清楚癌症已經是過去41年來對台灣民眾"},{"start":25027.568,"end":25044.857,"text":"．一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三"},{"start":25057.605,"end":25085.522,"text":"一、二的新進步能夠盡量的來減少還正對民眾的死亡的威脅。那我們也看得出來從過去20年前的5年的存活率46.1%到目前為止我們已經提升到61.5%也就是說過去25年來20年來其實已經有把這個存活率提升到了15.4個百分比可是"},{"start":25086.616,"end":25111.454,"text":"相較於韓國他的5年存活率是70%日本是65%所以我們其實還是有很大的要進步的空間那要進步的空間我想身為這個醫師專業的賴清德總統當選人他其實非常有感受所以他很希望打造健康台灣的過程要把這個"},{"start":25112.554,"end":25139.59,"text":"到了2030年要把這個癌症死亡率死亡人數可以下降三分之一那這個就是我們未來必須要共同努力的方向那三分之一的概念就是可能可以下降15000人的死亡人數那就約略於2022年差不多是COVID的死亡人數所以這是一個很大的目標那院長你是這方面的專家"},{"start":25140.526,"end":25164.321,"text":"我們也知道從2003年癌症防治法成立以後從2010年開始比較大規模的整個癌症的防治包括篩檢的部分那已經相近14年了。院長你覺得或者是你認同目前臺灣執行中的這個五大癌症的篩檢它是有合乎我們目前的預設的目標"},{"start":25165.678,"end":25194.438,"text":"還有你滿意這些成果嗎?在目前為止我們大口如指這個四個癌症的篩檢是2024年我在當衛生署署長的時候大力在推動那推動的時候就如同你這裡寫的一樣實際上我們看到死亡率是有在明顯的下降那我們跟美國國家癌症研究中心有做過相關的分析我們覺得還需要再更加的普及相關的篩檢那其中一個很重要的篩檢就是肺癌的篩檢"},{"start":25195.259,"end":25222.095,"text":"所以我們也在前2、3年就開始推動了肺癌的篩檢因為肺腺癌特別是有家族死者的肺腺癌很高那我們現在肺癌的這一個發生的期數都比較高如果我們能夠篩檢的話我們就讓臨期的一期的可以發現像我自己一樣那這個時候存活率就會很高那這個是我們該發展的另外一個部分"},{"start":25223.275,"end":25250.666,"text":"另外篩檢的方式也可以再精進,這個部分委員是專家,我們會一起來努力。的確肺癌篩檢使用低劑量的檢查,即使在一個週年就能夠拯救了500個家庭,這是一個很好的數字。我們也知道在這個過程裡面,其實它可以發揮更多的效益出來,因為這些"},{"start":25251.99,"end":25274.375,"text":"通過篩檢檢查出來的病人基本上都是一個很早期的癌症經過適當的治療幾乎他都可以痊癒的不過我們還是會擔心我們看到的就是篩檢率如果篩檢有這麼好的成果那為什麼我們的篩檢率能不能夠有辦法適度的在提升因為我們看到其實民眾參與這個篩檢的"},{"start":25277.244,"end":25296.715,"text":"﹗"},{"start":25300.979,"end":25320.685,"text":"關注到有一些民眾他是陽篩所以陽篩就是初步檢查看起來是需要在持續做後續處理的那大腸癌的這個陽篩的我們看到百分比相較於乳癌相較於子宮頸癌就真的差很多那這部分"},{"start":25322.048,"end":25337.66,"text":"您是專家那目前到底有什麼樣的因素會讓我們的民眾對於篩檢是不願意來充分的參與那對於這個陽篩的後續追蹤也會有所畏懼不知道您的看法"},{"start":25338.741,"end":25338.761,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":25356.489,"end":25356.509,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":25379.528,"end":25380.468,"text":"對,這真的是非常可惜那這邊我們也了解到"},{"start":25409.13,"end":25436.455,"text":"其實影響國人篩檢意願的可能因素就包括我們所列出來這幾項其中有一些是沒有時間有一些是不方便或者是說他很擔心阿不然事情要檢查要做什麼這個都是會讓民眾不願意參加篩檢而已那很謝謝院長還有謝謝部長這邊也期待透過國民健康署去擬定各種更好的方法來讓民眾知道"},{"start":25437.042,"end":25437.562,"text":"﹚三、3月26日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚"},{"start":25462.875,"end":25463.035,"text":"目前﹖"},{"start":25492.645,"end":25515.516,"text":"一般的費用是4000到5000塊,那這個對民眾來講它其實是一個負擔,因為它一方面增加不方便,一方面它可能請假,尤其是在公司請假,它要做先前的準備,又要自費的負擔,所以我們很容易理解為什麼這一部分它的這個揚罪率是不如預期。"},{"start":25517.601,"end":25526.089,"text":"請問部長或者是院長有什麼方式可以讓他們有更有意願來接受這樣的這個大長徑的篩檢嗎?目前大概是這樣子的以前的話這種篩檢陽性的話那要"},{"start":25534.119,"end":25556.193,"text":"找這個病人到醫院去,都是由篩檢者,也就是說像是衛生所、基層的醫師去把他轉介過來。但是這樣子是效果不會很好,所以我們目前的做法是我們希望由醫院先把這個篩檢陽性的名單給醫院,由醫院去把他找來。"},{"start":25557.296,"end":25584.202,"text":"那找來的好處就是他就可以安排時間是比較能夠符合病人的需要的那至於剛剛委員提到的無痛的麻醉的費用的話這我們可以再來討論一下看看是不是在這方面也有做補助那當然有一個部分的話是可能跟勞動部相關的也就請假了這個問題那這個看看能不能要一起來做配合"},{"start":25585.287,"end":25604.356,"text":"好,謝謝。其實我們也很建議如果能夠有研議出一些節稅的措施來減少他的這個不方便同時又能夠讓他納入為一個免稅額的話那也許也是另外一種可行的方案。其實我們很期待企業界如果他是"},{"start":25605.504,"end":25622.479,"text":"認為員工的健康是他們企業最大的資產的話,那也許也麻煩院長將來可以呼籲企業界從這個方面可以幫助他的員工來做這方面的檢查,讓他的員工可以得到最大的照顧。確實現在很多企業界有在這樣做,對。那就麻煩院長"},{"start":25623.88,"end":25646.663,"text":"那其實我們知道如果能夠再增加量能的話當然就有機會去篩檢出更多的這些早期的癌患所以針對年齡的限制我們也期待透過一些相關專家學者的研議讓這樣的年齡層可以達到更好的或者是相對比較更有機會找到早期癌症的病人"},{"start":25647.724,"end":25669.724,"text":"大腸癌為例如果我們在45歲就開始已經開始出現大量的這些脊肉產生的時候事實上我們就可以利用這個機會把這個脊肉處理掉往後就不會變成大腸癌這個也是希望將來透過一些演繹的方式看能不能適度的去放寬其實我們最擔心的還是經費的問題"},{"start":25671.618,"end":25698.038,"text":"因為我們這樣大量的這個來篩檢以後真的可以找到更多的早期病人得到更好的這個五年存活率可是經費怎麼辦呢請問院長現在我們知道每一年會有27億28億的癌症篩檢費用那我們看到的編列出來如果要到2030年期待能夠真的把這個癌症死亡率減低三分之一的話我們看到了這個編列的經費就要逐年增加"},{"start":25699.159,"end":25719.8,"text":"甚至將近100億可是我們發現這個陰害的基金已經越來越不足不知道院長在這方面在這個預算的編列有沒有什麼更充分的這個穩定的裁員在這個部分我們也希望這個衛福部特別是國建署他能夠編列一個比較有"},{"start":25722.21,"end":25747.056,"text":"﹚總統"},{"start":25747.256,"end":25773.53,"text":"我們衛福部還有國建署這邊特別提出這一個更精進的這個癌症防治計畫然後來編列相關的經費好 謝謝那再過來就有關的信用基金的部分那剛剛部長也說明了很清楚其實目前看起來這個暫時性的專管應該是透過這個公務預算的撥補指定用途"},{"start":25774.366,"end":25775.167,"text":"我們的規劃的確是這樣子"},{"start":25801.807,"end":25825.955,"text":"行政院這邊如果預算撥補到健保基金裡面去的話這個仍然是屬於公務預算所以仍然要經過立法院這邊的審查所以並沒有說要去迴避這所謂的審查只不過因為這是公務預算的本質所以可能在健保會上面的話那就是沒有就是說不能去左右"},{"start":25839.48,"end":25841.241,"text":"接下來我們請登記第16號秋委員議員質詢。"},{"start":25869.064,"end":25869.765,"text":"祝永安"},{"start":25879.622,"end":25907.21,"text":"院長午安,院長辛苦了,經過這一整天的這個詢答那剛剛王振旭委員他是癌症治療專家是,很專家那很巧的他提到的所有的質詢的內容都跟癌症的治療或者是新藥有關係院長您跟我都是癌症的病友,對不對?是所以我接下來要跟院長請教我們要討論的這個議題我相信院長您大概知道我要問什麼"},{"start":25910.236,"end":25931.297,"text":"全球再生醫療法其實我們推動了很久再生醫療的研究生技醫療的研究是一條漫長的路小英總統這樣說過但是我覺得再生醫療雙把的推動更是一條漫長的路院長我讓您看一下這個是全球再生醫療產業的現況"},{"start":25933.579,"end":25940.385,"text":"到2023年的第三季為止,全球已經有1803項的再生醫療臨床試驗在進行中。所有的這個開發商相較於2022年的1457家,到2023年已經大幅增長了77%。"},{"start":25955.16,"end":25968.003,"text":"這個是全球推動再生醫療的大事跡日本早在2013年就通過再生醫療的促進法2014年通過了再生醫療法美國在2016年通過21世紀醫療法在2022年FDA發布了最新的再生醫療標準認可計畫"},{"start":25981.448,"end":25988.001,"text":"韓國也在2019年通過《先進再生醫療跟生物製藥的安全支持法案》"},{"start":25989.823,"end":26014.471,"text":"院長我請您再看一下這個是在2023年上市的再生醫療的產品全世界各國包括歐盟、日本、美國大家一直紛紛的在研究所謂的再生醫療的產品他們已經從自體細胞的治療不只進步到液體細胞的治療甚至基因的治療反而是新上市的這些產品的大宗"},{"start":26016.324,"end":26034.601,"text":"這個呢我追溯到最早2018年小英總統在出席生技展的時候公開的這樣說生技醫療產品的研發是一條漫長的路不過政府責無旁貸我們希望能夠陪伴我們的企業迎接所有的挑戰那包括"},{"start":26038.159,"end":26054.58,"text":"總統在2022年他每一年去參加生技展每一年都會講要推動生技要推動再生醫療包括院長您在今年出席工商早餐會的時候也特別談到希望生醫成為下一座的護國神山對不對"},{"start":26056.684,"end":26067.213,"text":"院長我讓您看一下這個當然是我們賴清德總統的推動的健康台灣的政見當然也提到了精準醫療再生醫療甚至癌症的防治等等"},{"start":26069.556,"end":26093.497,"text":"這個是我們在臺灣對於再生醫療法推動的整個進程。2015年應該是臺灣最早接觸到再生醫療這個是因為八仙晨報的時候我們接受了日本捐贈的所謂的細胞自體細胞成片來醫治燒傷的病人所以這個是臺灣最早接觸到所謂的自體細胞產品2015年同年"},{"start":26094.358,"end":26118.74,"text":"有一個癌友叫Casper他在國發會的平台裡頭發起連署癌症免疫療法的修法的法案短短9天之內5000人復疫達標而我也是在2015年看到這個法案之後開始投入再生醫療投入細胞免疫療法的這樣的一個法案的研究當然一直到2018年我們通過了特管辦法"},{"start":26119.781,"end":26120.441,"text":"院長,請再看一下。"},{"start":26149.171,"end":26171.73,"text":"這個是目前臺灣雖然沒有通過再生醫療法但是我們有特管辦法18年通過的特管辦法這個是到目前為止衛福部合可的特管辦法所收治的案例我不知道部長您大概有沒有去做過統計這樣的一個特管辦法的審查每一個案例的審查時間"},{"start":26173.456,"end":26201.058,"text":"我初步剛剛算了一下每一個案例審查的時間大概要3個月到6個月不等而且case by case的審查這一家生技業者他所做出來的產品即使上一個案在某A醫院通過審查之後他在B醫院要做的時候他還是要重新送件再審查一次平均3到6個月我不知道有多少癌症的病人可以等這麼久的時間"},{"start":26204.773,"end":26220.289,"text":"再生醫療法不過臺灣很多的生技業者不管是在研發上面在推動上面甚至在跟國際合作的上面其實我們都會受到許多的限制院長我請您再看一下這個統計"},{"start":26223.217,"end":26245.309,"text":"我們衛福部有要求要從事再生醫療的醫療人員醫師人員必須接受這樣的一個教育訓練的課程可是您可以看到從107年也就是2018年的2099人報名參加一直到去年只剩下494人參加"},{"start":26249.338,"end":26277.711,"text":"是因為大家關心再生醫療嗎?不是反而因為我們的法令沒有過讓很多業者開始地下化因為無法可管無法可罰所以你沒有辦法去取締他你也沒有辦法去罰他甚至你也沒有辦法好好的認真的嚴格審查這些廠商的細胞製程的過程"},{"start":26278.865,"end":26301.626,"text":"到底合不合法到底合不合衛福部所有的GMP的規定對不對所以您同意我的這個看法這個是我大概擷取了幾個再生醫療的發展包括杜元坤教授做膝蓋軟骨細胞應該是臺灣的首屈一指包括現在我們不只"},{"start":26302.881,"end":26304.021,"text":"在政醫療法這個是大概是衛福部的版本"},{"start":26332.728,"end":26338.032,"text":"那我知道衛福部最近開始在辦說明會21號辦了一場28號也辦了一場這個說明會很詭異他沒有開放報名他是採用邀請制"},{"start":26347.426,"end":26372.769,"text":"部長您可不可以說明一下為什麼會是這樣處理跟委員報告目前再生醫療法現在是這樣子從這個上一次在立法院就插了林門一腳然後屆時不續審所以現在我們是跟行政院這邊討論的結果是我們不會退到衛福部來"},{"start":26374.165,"end":26398.105,"text":"所以會在行政院那邊繼續做一個審查就會送立法院這中間條文的部分並沒有太大的差異只有這個順序上面可能有一個調動因為過去在批評這個再生醫療法的誤解的情形就是以為是再生醫療不用人體試驗"},{"start":26399.775,"end":26413.999,"text":"但是這是錯的觀念所謂的再生醫療如果要變成常規化的話都一定要經過人體試驗除了有幾個條件之下的話才可以不用等人體試驗完成對就是這種情形"},{"start":26417.02,"end":26437.479,"text":"那這些因為這一個改變屬於說比較小的所以目前我們已經把新的調整過了這個版本送到縣政院那那個政委會再審查過一次就會送到立法院我想聽一下院長的看法因為我們"},{"start":26438.936,"end":26466.631,"text":"本席大概是對再生醫療比較關心的委員之一所以我其實很想知道就行政院的態度剛剛部長也講得很清楚但是我還是想從院長的口中裡頭去聽到到底行政院對於推動這樣的一個醫療方案對於推動台灣的醫療進程行政院有沒有信心有沒有願意很努力的來跟社會大眾甚至跟醫界跟某些不了解的人來進行溝通"},{"start":26467.271,"end":26489.018,"text":"對,在上個會期沒有通過就讓我很失望了但是我一直請衛福部應該再加緊然後在整個新的會期趕快送出來謝謝衛福部3月20日就送到行政院我會請政委趕快的再加速審查以後最起碼我相信在這一兩個月的時間內我們就送出"},{"start":26497.731,"end":26508.524,"text":"我其實也很期待520之前能夠趕快通過甚至不要等到520我覺得越快通過越好啦我真的覺得就是說很多的癌症病患或者是說很多的台灣的病友"},{"start":26509.125,"end":26530.012,"text":"其實因切的期盼這樣的一個新的療法能夠讓他合法上市所以我相信包括立法院裡頭很多的醫界的委員包括王振旭委員包括蘇喬惠委員等等我們大家都願意的持續努力來推動趕快把這個再生醫療的雙法能夠來推動通過好院長那我接下來要請教這個是比較實事題"},{"start":26532.593,"end":26558.387,"text":"這個呢因為漲電價所以最近包括經濟部甚至包括行政院被批評的很多這個是經濟部的圖卡他說用電比較多的麵包店呢你可以改選時間電價一個月可以省一萬七那這個時間電價經濟部或者是台電沒有告訴大家的是你要用時間電價你必須先去安裝智慧電表院長這您知道吧"},{"start":26559.548,"end":26581.194,"text":"你要安裝智慧電表還沒那麼簡單來院長給你看一下齁臺電的網站上面告訴大家智慧電表是逐年分批部件你不能主動去申請除非是用電大戶或者是你的住家有再生能源併網才可以所以很多人現在"},{"start":26581.954,"end":26604.872,"text":"來﹗"},{"start":26606.064,"end":26618.8,"text":"這個可能部長您還要再上來這個是我今天早上請衛福部幫我整理了一下部立醫院裡頭有安裝智慧電表的"},{"start":26620.435,"end":26622.096,"text":"來我再給您看這是高雄市的醫療院所裝置智慧電表的情況"},{"start":26644.932,"end":26662.649,"text":"高雄市的市立醫院、高一大輔社醫院甚至國軍總醫院都沒有安裝智慧電表所以他們根本也沒有辦法申請所謂的時間電價也沒有辦法能夠更有更多的節電措施"},{"start":26663.61,"end":26678.587,"text":"院長這個就是我要說的我們在講說電價漲了對於醫療院所的負擔是沉重的但是有沒有可能衛福部你們先去盤點這些醫療院所到底有哪些連智慧電表都沒裝"},{"start":26680.359,"end":26708.241,"text":"是不是能夠push他們或者是我們責成臺電要求臺電跨部會合作讓智慧電表早日把所有的醫療院所全部普及有沒有可能我想我們讓衛福部跟經濟部一起努力這個應該盤點不是太困難因為經濟部一定有data然後衛福部這邊有醫院的名單match一下大概就可以有了我想請他們跨部會來做"},{"start":26709.09,"end":26720.243,"text":"當然我們在談到要不要補貼醫院或者是醫院要不要動漲電費我覺得安裝智慧電表這件事情就是第一步所以是不是能夠請衛福部也能夠加速"},{"start":26721.524,"end":26742.571,"text":"至少你先盤點這一塊,好不好?那因為我接下來剩下不到一分鐘的時間我想就這最後的50秒我還是要謝謝陳建仁院長您帶領的團隊在這一段時間以來我相信對台灣做了非常多的貢獻跟努力我們還是要謝謝您"},{"start":26743.491,"end":26772.35,"text":"那今天是最後一次對您的總質詢那我想也非常感謝您過去一段時間的努力也希望未來不管陳院長您在哪一個崗位上是不是也能夠一起繼續守護台灣不只守護台灣的健康也守護台灣的經濟守護台灣的永續發展好不好謝謝那我們幾位委員呢特別也準備了一束花要來送給陳建仁院長表達我們對您的祝福跟感謝謝謝"},{"start":26773.251,"end":26774.002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26830.082,"end":26853.179,"text":"謝謝邱毅英委員的質詢。接下來,我們請登記第18位,啊,對不起,第17位紅委員申翰之質詢以書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。在接下來,我們請今天登記第18號鄭委員正前質詢。"},{"start":26864.729,"end":26867.314,"text":"謝謝主席,我要請一下陳院長再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":26874.202,"end":26890.516,"text":"院長好,這個會期有關於總質詢的問題,就是有很多的分分毛毛,那我本席剛好是最後一位,那我沒有花送給你,可是我希望520之後還能夠在這邊跟你質詢,好不好?這個有點困難首先我想問一個問題,就是"},{"start":26894.983,"end":26909.975,"text":"施連移工不斷的攀高,行政院束手無策。我本來一直在想說我這束手無策後面到底要加問號還是要加驚嘆號。我想請教院長,我們對於施連移工的問題有沒有解決的方法,要如何解決?"},{"start":26911.136,"end":26931.134,"text":"施電移工的問題的話政府確實是在COVID-19的這一段期間施電移工有增加那後來我們也努力的來查組這些施電移工那像在去年的話就有4萬多人我們有查出來那現在還有8萬多人那在這個部分我們會請勞動部還有我們的這個內政部跟"},{"start":26935.417,"end":26957.974,"text":"去年查到4萬多人,現在還有8萬多人,所以曾經高峰是10幾萬人嗎?去年是2.7萬,我剛才講的是比較長的。院長你看一下統計數字,從2019年一路過來,所以你的數字跟我數字顯然有點不太一樣,可是我這全部都是看勞動部官方網站上面的數字下來。"},{"start":26959.626,"end":26979.159,"text":"從2019年四萬八千多人一路到去年八萬六千五百二十三人那麼這麼多人的情況之下我先不講說你們之前讓他們能夠來自首有多少人這麼多人的情況之下的時候顯然已經讓我們的社會裡面政府輸、社會輸"},{"start":26980.66,"end":27005.475,"text":"连移工也輸出現一個三輸的一個情況那政府輸在哪裡整個政府的威信完全喪失掉因為他們整個失聯移工他們已經變成一個產業鏈有一條龍的狀態有失聯的移工他們透過一些非法的仲介找到一些非法的雇主他們就一路這樣下來過去十年啊等到他們"},{"start":27006.155,"end":27007.776,"text":"社會安全也受到很多的一個挑戰。我大概直接問一個問題來問院長這邊。"},{"start":27028.787,"end":27048.112,"text":"移工逃脫社會安全的保障這個問題也非常的具體因為我們現在除了看護工之外是沒有比照勞基法其他的部分都一律按照我們的勞基法、救福法那包括性別平等工作法、職災保障"},{"start":27048.832,"end":27055.017,"text":"那我想問一下院長,你知道目前我們逃逸的失聯外勞當中的時候,有多少人產生了下一代?"},{"start":27073.112,"end":27082.477,"text":"這個部分我們確實是有一些統計的數據那詳細的數字有沒有詳細的數字部長報告委員我們有統計20年來近20年來失聯移工所產生的他們所謂黑戶寶寶大概是3500多人3500多人是在所有的黑戶寶寶1.8萬人大概不到20%"},{"start":27100.311,"end":27110.85,"text":"這是你講的一個目前的數字因為有一個民間團體他們對於現在這麼多失聯移工的一個情況的時候他們直接講到一個數字"},{"start":27112.435,"end":27128.436,"text":"他們認為現在失聯移工裡頭女性有37192人按照到今年1月底為止這是勞動部的數字他們以三成來算的時候他們預計可能會有一萬多個這樣子的寶寶"},{"start":27129.477,"end":27155.727,"text":"那如果沒有好好處理的時候他們預計這個數據可能要再查證的那本席要特別提到的狀態是不管數字是三千多人還是他們預估的一萬多人對臺灣的社會都會產生很大的一個衝擊然後這個衝擊不是眼前的因為他們是人他們會長大他們會延續到後面很多很多的問題的產生所以本席對於這個部分"},{"start":27157.228,"end":27170.419,"text":"對於失聯移工的部分,院長這邊要怎麼樣能夠更有效的解決,讓這八萬五千多個失聯的移工能夠真正的被"},{"start":27172.14,"end":27192.32,"text":"納入正軌我們有沒有更具體的一個做法還是就放任他在社會當中流竄造成我們社會當中一個系統性的一個問題當然不會換人我們這個勞動局已經有一個對策我們真的是這三年的疫情造成111年的時候那增加了4萬多的"},{"start":27194.022,"end":27199.466,"text":"市長你講數據降下來的時候我就聽不太進去你之後再給我一個更詳細的一個數字因為我們的數字都是從整個勞動部那邊去查的"},{"start":27220.803,"end":27228.709,"text":"我接下來想要講的狀態是以目前這個狀況我覺得臺灣的代勞政策、移工政策顯然是出了一個問題我從兩個數字來跟你這邊特別講到"},{"start":27235.874,"end":27261.449,"text":"按照113年2月底的一個數字臺灣外勞總共有75萬6千多人這數字應該是對的嘛因為也是從你們的網站上面直接抓下來的狀態那麼其中呢對於產業移工跟社福移工裡面那麼產業移工裡面占大多數可是呢真正很缺工的營造業跟農牧漁業它的外勞人數很少所以很多的黑工"},{"start":27262.506,"end":27266.231,"text":"已經開放黑工會已經開放去年的時候建業開放了15000人民間的已經開放按照15000的部分目前還沒有內政部還沒有整個登記完"},{"start":27278.686,"end":27282.327,"text":"國土署今年1月公布營造業經濟概況調查在2022年台灣的營造業缺工人數高達48669人這是國土署的一個具體的數字所以我們目前"},{"start":27308.616,"end":27329.554,"text":"銀造業這個開放的狀態也不夠嗎?我再跟你們講一件事情,我在從新竹來,新竹當時很積極地在推就是保三二期,因為要給台積電更好的一個狀態,我們都非常的支持,可是你知道,當他們在趕工的時候,台灣在當地的一個銀造業的工人,工資"},{"start":27331.391,"end":27352.868,"text":"一天破萬,為什麼要趕工?然後因為台積電他很手法,全部都用臺灣的勞動力,所以我要講的狀態是,之後在產生的影響是附近很多的營造工人都缺工,缺得非常非常的嚴重,所以在當地的時候有些"},{"start":27354.892,"end":27369.885,"text":"好跑的一些外勞他們就往這邊去流動那我要講的是在臺灣的這個營造業產那個產業當中的時候他們很習慣用點工的方式所以當我們提供出來的兩個要件5到10人"},{"start":27370.325,"end":27375.728,"text":"我希望能夠更接地氣至少在這個部分勞動部跟內政部這邊有要解決營造業的問題可是沒有完全解決"},{"start":27392.037,"end":27410.975,"text":"所以我希望勞動部這邊能夠跟內政部這邊再重新去檢討一下對於整個營造業的移工政策是不是能夠再加以調整因為我們這個整個民間營造業移工的開放是工程會邀集"},{"start":27411.856,"end":27418.383,"text":"內政部、移屆署、包括勞動部、相關部會我們一起討論出來的方案他這個部會現在移工已經已經1萬5他登記我知道還沒有滿但是我覺得這個政策都會滾動性檢討這個剛上路那如果有問題我想我們跨部會都會"},{"start":27431.595,"end":27453.668,"text":"所以他是可能持續檢討,然後可能更符合就是基層業者他們的需求嘛,對不對?我們會跨部會,因為現在剛上路,那我的意思是說剛登記人還沒進來,那以後沒有用你就說這個政策不行。因為他們目前很多人反映的狀態是,因為他們是用遠度的方式,他們並沒有直接拼用。"},{"start":27456.892,"end":27462.199,"text":"因為這是他們產業的特性,典工的情況非常的多,所以本席希望我們能夠更接地氣。"},{"start":27471.591,"end":27487.63,"text":"然後這一些政策正在實施過程當中那你剛才講的這一些逃逸勞工呢實際上在這一些正式的勞工進來以後呢慢慢的他們會被淘汰掉或者被取代掉了那這一個部分"},{"start":27489.931,"end":27499.375,"text":"議員長他們沒有對取代票,他們的數字一直累積,從2019年4萬多到2023年8萬多,成長了快要一倍啊,你知道嗎?剛才就講過了嘛,這是疫情的時間,移工進不來,而且"},{"start":27505.277,"end":27530.411,"text":"是有這樣的一個困難。所以你說這些八萬多人都是你們統計能夠追蹤的了的嗎?之後我再給本席更清楚的知道,因為我們看到的數字完全不是如此。那麼另外一個跟移工有關的部分我要特別提到的就是有關於農業的部分,農漁民的部分,他們有一個外展農業漁工。我們目前開放3000個人嘛,對不對?進來1980人嘛,對不對?我們給農業部已經一萬二。"},{"start":27535.094,"end":27555.069,"text":"我不要人數一萬二,但是他進來多少人可能… 農業部這邊齁,他們常態性的缺工是1.2萬人次啦。在因為農業還有很強的季節性,他們在季節性強的時候,超過20.1萬的人次是缺工的。那麼我這邊的數字到目前為止,至少農業部給本席的資料是他們目前齁,"},{"start":27557.09,"end":27577.063,"text":"開放的外展農務人士是三千人,進來的是一千九百八十人,跟你講的一萬多人數字是不一樣的。一萬二是我給他們的額度,那我們現在知道農業移工事實上農業部這邊已經和了兩千多人,我講的是外展的移工。"},{"start":27577.984,"end":27600.456,"text":"外展農業移工不是農業移工啊,你們這兩個名詞裡都沒辦法釐清嗎?外展農業移工不是農業的移工。給他回答一下,外展的部分是3000人啊。外展的部分是3000人。對嘛,所以我講外展3000人我就特別講外展的部分。那這個部分因為他們有季節性,所以本席也特別希望說,針對這樣的外展的"},{"start":27602.677,"end":27603.358,"text":"委員這個目前的法規是不行的"},{"start":27617.774,"end":27637.355,"text":"這個是我在這邊質詢的原因,我希望院長這邊是不是能夠召集農業部、勞動部、內政部跟衛福部,能夠稍微針對這個部分去做一個討論,好不好?解決一個方式,否則你開放出來的外展農業移工3000個,他們都用不滿啊,因為不知道怎麼用進來,用進來他們沒有辦法給他足夠的工資。"},{"start":27639.057,"end":27655.308,"text":"現在的很重要的情形就是說每一個人都有他的專業嘛,那你現在說外產的這個農業員工要到民建業,他們是不是有可能去營造業做一些非技術性的工作,非技術性的工作?"},{"start":27658.09,"end":27659.47,"text":"議員長,你現在講滾動檢討,我也希望你滾動檢討一下。"},{"start":27683.237,"end":27697.526,"text":"就是針對掛號費這個問題,因為3月4日開始,那宣部長有特別提到說,那個3月8日有特別提到說我們公立醫院不會漲價,是不是有這樣的一個承諾?"},{"start":27699.167,"end":27714.312,"text":"現在他們有統計你聽部長講一下你的擔心實際上是有點過濾到目前為止我們掌握的資料是有漲價在我們那個公告之後有漲價的醫療院所包括醫院跟診所一共是57家"},{"start":27715.888,"end":27735.343,"text":"我們持續還在監測當中是來那個部長因為時間有限就是說因為剛開始3月份才剛開始現在才3月中旬而已所以還沒有完全漲上來可是部長之前有承諾就是說公立院不漲能夠持續多久不漲"},{"start":27736.765,"end":27757.467,"text":"我想一年大概可以了。一年內不漲,一年之後可能就會漲。我要特別提到是說,因為這個外號被取消上線的這個部分的時候,其實已經嚴重的影響到了很多醫生他們擔心當公立醫院不漲的情況之下的時候,那區域診所長"},{"start":27758.248,"end":27759.809,"text":"好,謝謝政委員、政監的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告委員會"},{"start":27788.325,"end":27807.464,"text":"徒委員全級3月15日經濟組登記之質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報。報院會本會期至2月20日起．對行政院院長施政方針及施政報告進行質詢。"},{"start":27809.369,"end":27835.972,"text":"已於今天詢答完畢。謝謝陳院長以及各位練習的部會首長。在質詢結束之前,我們請陳院長來說幾句話,好嗎?陳院長請。韓院長、各位委員先進、各位女士先生、大家午安、大家好。"},{"start":27837.519,"end":27865.638,"text":"第11屆第1會期對本院施政方針及施政報告的質詢在今天順利圓滿結束。在此我請向韓院長還有所有的委員在這一個會期給予我和整個行政團隊諸多的寶貴建議和指正以及所釋出來給我們的溫暖的感受。在此致上最深而且最誠摯的謝意也要再一次向本屆"},{"start":27866.614,"end":27891.501,"text":"順利當選的委員們再一次說聲恭賀和祝福。我從112年1月31日或蔡總統任命擔任行政院院長到現在都一直與行政團隊兢兢業業各所崗位全心全力從事扶國立民的工作一直未敢懈怠。在這個期間我要感謝全體國人"},{"start":27892.958,"end":27920.219,"text":"上下一心以及各位委員的專業問政提出各種務實的建議加速了貴我兩院合作推動各項攸關民生的重要設施還有重要的施政我在這裡特別致上我誠摯的謝意面對的全球快速變化的震驚局勢以及國內外各項嚴峻的挑戰民主臺灣始終走在正確的道路上不斷的"},{"start":27921.506,"end":27939.687,"text":"進步、成長、持續成為更溫暖、更堅韌、也更富強的國家。未來行政團隊一定會持續與貴院來通力合作以最大的努力來建設國家、服務全體人民、共同打造一個讓國人安居樂業的幸福家園。"},{"start":27940.914,"end":27967.798,"text":"隨著本會期總質詢的結束,貴院將展開進行各項法案的審查。有關本院所提的113年度附屬單位預算、新人交通安全設施條例、電子簽章法、海洋保育法以及全國性公民投票不在籍投票法等草案,也在這裡懇請委員們大力支持優先審議,希望我們齊心推動這一些法案。"},{"start":27968.567,"end":27984.722,"text":"最後我要再一次感謝各位委員對本院施政提供的寶貴意見也謝謝貴院所有工作同仁及媒體朋友在這一段期間的辛勞再祝福大家身心靈健康平安喜樂家庭美滿萬事如意謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":28001.738,"end":28023.683,"text":"再次謝謝陳建仁陳院長也要再謝謝各位各部會首長先來做以下的決定一、將各委員發言記錄及書面質詢含送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆二、以提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊"},{"start":28025.436,"end":28045.464,"text":"現在我們繼續處理復議案第一案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第5次會議報告事項第228案之決定提出復議請公決案現做以下之決定另定其處理二、第二案由民進黨黨團針對第5次會議報告事項第10案"},{"start":28049.264,"end":28066.607,"text":"第11案、第108案之決定提出復議請公決案。現作以下決定令定期處理。報告委員會本次會議進行到此為止。現在散會。非常感謝大家。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}