{"total":{"value":162,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-04-01"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"150832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0115987f40834901625a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a66d1a1d9ac38fd4c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:47:57 - 13:52:37","影片長度":"00:04:40","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":280,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:52:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T13:47:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1671,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時48分）主席好，請部長。"],["主席：好，有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。其實剛才幾位農業縣的委員都有特別談到對生產端的影響，我們當然知道最近寶林茶室的食安問題除了是消費端以外，對於生產端，我們中南部、南部的縣市影響非常大。王必勝次長已經表示23日進貨的35項食材都沒有驗出米酵菌酸，所以這個部分他們認為是前批的貨品有問題，我想不管目前的食品狀況如何，但因為大量的媒體報導，然後把農產品跟米酵菌酸做連結，這是現在我們遇到的危機溝通所需要面對的問題。農業部昨天晚上也有發新聞稿嚴正澄清，國產的杏鮑菇、木耳、鳳梨等等臺灣農產品都沒有檢測出來，部長可不可以在這邊跟全國民眾再次說明國產農產品的檢測狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前衛福部並沒有對全國的農產品去做普遍的檢測，我們現在針對的對象是涉及到這個個案的食材去做檢測，到目前為止，這可以確定是米酵菌酸引起的中毒事件，而這個米酵菌酸只有在寶林茶室位於信義區A13的這一家有發現到，而且這一些病人的共通特色就是有食用粿條，所以其他部分的話大概都不相關了。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個粿條到底是怎麼樣產生米酵菌酸，現在還在查。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我認為危機溝通要有更加明確的指引，就是說哪些食品在怎麼樣的保存方式食用無虞，然後你要說明清楚，我們不希望讓這種「此產品若保存不當可能導致米酵菌酸」等等，或者說「此產品疑……」等等這樣的訊息充斥在整個媒體，變成主流的方式，所以這個時候政府要負起傳遞可信訊息的責任就非常重大，根據CDC的危機和緊急風險溝通，就是Crisis and Emergency Risk Communication這個模式，一般民眾能夠消化的訊息大概只有三條到四條，所以剛才部長談到的部分，原則上也是把人、事、時、地、物等這三、四件事情把它清楚的跟民眾溝通就很重要。所以我認為在危機時期，我們必須要建立一個標準的危機溝通管理模式，讓正確的時間、正確的訊息，把資訊跟揣測分開清楚，帶領媒體的報導框架，這是非常重要的。就是說，未來我們政府針對這樣的危機處理跟發言必須要簡短、重複、清晰，最好是有一個完整的統一窗口，像過去疫情期間有一個指揮中心，所以我們很快速的可以知道相關資訊，但是現在食品安全的問題其實是滿多元的，有些時候是跟農業部管轄相關，有些時候跟衛福部管轄相關，所以我希望行政院的整合必須要很清楚，像上次食安辦的主任許先生也有談到，上一次就是一個我們曾經遇到的問題，當然主任也很快速的澄清了這個問題，只是我們不可以在資訊的傳播上面再多出疑問句或者是再多出其他跟此案不相關的物品，這些都不能夠再次出聲、再次發現。這次我很高興農業部在第一時間就把可能會造成的問題跟不會造成的問題做釐清，把傳聞跟事實分清楚，這是危機溝通非常重要的一部分，希望未來衛福部或者是行政院體系能夠繼承農業部這樣的傳統，用更完整的方式把這個發言的系統陳述出來，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來請賴惠員、賴惠員，賴惠員委員不在。","請吳思瑤、吳思瑤，吳思瑤委員不在。","請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請游顥、游顥，游顥委員不在。","請吳秉叡、吳秉叡，吳秉叡委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","請李柏毅、李柏毅，李柏毅委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員邱鎮軍、王鴻薇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","1130401衛環委員會寶林、小林食安事件書面質詢稿","邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","食安問題連環爆，一波未平一波又起，繼蘇丹紅事件，近日再度爆發米酵菌酸食安風暴，截至31日，累計已有31人受害，其中2人死亡、5人重症；另外日本小林製藥紅麴保健食品含有軟毛青黴酸，國內已經有226件使用其原料的產品下架，截至30日國內已有3人通報受害出現腎病變。","《題目一、寶林茶室米酵菌酸食安事件》","Q1-1：過去疫調專家認為米酵菌酸無法在人體內繁殖，但這次「經過將近1周急救治療、葉克膜協助代謝，身體還能驗出殘留米酵菌酸成分」，專家認為間接證實米酵菌酸可能在人體內繁殖，請問部長是否同意這種推測？","Q1-2：目前包含死者及較重症患者已有8例驗出米酵菌酸，請問目前會產生米酵菌酸的「椰毒亞型」「唐菖蒲伯克氏菌」，是否可能存在本土食材？還是隨國外食材引進？","Q1-3：由於店內相關食材皆未驗出米酵菌酸，目前傾向為店內後製過程產生問題，請問前一批出問題之粄條相關成分有沒有使用國外食材？目前有沒有掌握寶林茶室有哪些可疑食材？分別來自那些國家？","Q1-4：現在消費者談粄條色變，形成更大的食安風暴，請問包含粄條在內的國內新鮮米製品，到底安不安全？應該注意的食材到底有哪些？","Q1-5：農業部已經強調，國產食材是安全的，但民眾仍然會擔心害怕。請問衛福部何時可以提出針對椰子、玉米、米製品等製成食品的安全指引？","結論：部長，民眾恐慌的事，就是大事，目前已經確定這次米酵菌酸事件只發生在寶林茶室，並且傾向是在後製過程產生，本席希望衛福部可以同步進行，在三週內儘快提出相關食品安全指引，以穩定民生消費市場。","《議題二、小林製藥紅麴保健食品食安事件》","Q2-1：針對日本紅麴保健食品事件，食藥署表示將透過食安基金補助國內受害民眾，打海外團體訴訟，但小林製藥已經表示對於台灣受害者，會給予同等賠償，應該有更快速的作為。請問衛福部是否可以投過相關管道接洽，儘快協助民眾快速洽辦取得賠償？","Q2-2：針對有受害者指出，她是相信政府認證，所以選購國家小綠人標章認證的紅麴健康食品，沒想到反而出問題，顯然國家標章認證不等於安全保證，希望政府精進作為，讓人民可以信賴。請問薛部長會不會檢討精進標章認證作業？如何協助民眾啟動國內產品責任保險理賠？","《題目三、追蹤蘇丹紅事件一個月承諾》","Q3-1：針對上次蘇丹紅事件，部長承諾一個月完成可疑批次產品全面清查，全面下架回收，只剩三天，請問目前進度如何？","這次事件是國內食安全面失守的系統性事件，本席看到跨部會有提出四大精進作為，但針對自主檢驗，檢驗公司的通報責任，並未納入精進作為，希望衛福部要持續精進，做到即時控管。","Q3-2：請問環境部化學署，本席看到環境部列管57種危險化學物質的食品及原料中，竟然含有醋酸、檸檬酸等15種食品添加物化學品。雖然政府有說明主要是針對與食品添加物同品項，但沒有經衛福部查驗登記核可並取得許可證字號之化學物質。但仍與「危險化學物質」請問這樣是不是會造成民眾誤解？","結論：為了避免讓民眾產生誤解恐慌，本席建議應該分級公告，並且定期檢討。"],["委員王鴻薇書面質詢：","1130401立法委員王鴻薇立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","一、針對日本小林製要紅麴延燒國內，請統計受害人數，並建立國內受害者向日本申訴機制，避免國人持續受害無法求償。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.88159375,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.33596875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.80846875,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.12471875,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.32909375,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.81034375,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.04034375,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.57534375,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.97596875,"end":87.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.76284375,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.55159375000001,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.18409375,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.01034375,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.70596875000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.62471875000001,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.16034375000001,"end":119.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.92784375000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":125.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.47534375000001,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.20471875,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.2384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13:47:55","影片長度":"00:04:18","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":258,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:47:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T13:43:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1655,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時43分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，午安。我想部長是我們國內少數具有醫療跟法律背景，而且是曾經在地方政府跟中央部會都任職過的官員，我們都很尊重部長的專業。我想請教部長，因為農業部農試所有重申說國內目前並沒有米酵菌酸危害到農作物的紀錄，也呼籲我們各界安心選用國產食材，針對這個部分，我想還是要請教部長，到底寶林茶室這個案件是屬於個案還是通案？我們有沒有掌握相關的資訊？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該說它是侷限在一個單一場所的群聚事件，應該是這樣講。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，你曾經在屏東縣政府任職過嘛，你也很清楚瞭解我們屏東鄉下人從早上的早餐開始就吃粿仔了啦，所以粿仔店的生意真的受到很大的衝擊，而且我們屏東縣是產米的一個大縣，我們農民也是叫苦連天，包含我們的食品加工廠。目前我們有11個縣市的營養午餐停用粿條跟粄條，甚至我們重點稽查異國料理店，這些年輕老闆大家都人心惶惶。針對這樣的作法，部長認為有必要嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前看起來的證據是沒有顯現說這個事件有擴大出去，所以一般所謂的粿條、粄條，我覺得應該不用太過擔心，不過因為目前大概粿條是一個標的啦，粿條的處理過程跟保存過程是不是有什麼樣的問題才導致它產生米酵菌酸，這部分就是正在查的範圍，如果有一個結論出來的時候，我想我們大概會針對這一點去警告社會大眾跟業者。"],["徐委員富癸：這一點要請部長儘快釐清啦，畢竟食安問題是大眾關心的一個議題，尤其我們很多鄉親都是用粿仔主食，這樣大家吃了也比較安心，不會驚惶。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我想最近一連串的食安問題，包含蘇丹紅，還有米酵菌酸的事件，確實造成一些衝擊，我們看到有三大受害族群，第一個最直接的當然就是栽種農作物的農民，第二個就是我們的食品加工廠，第三個就是餐廳，大家這樣苦不堪言，尤其我們屏東這邊相關的辣椒價格下跌三成，寶林茶室事件也造成我們鄉親不敢吃粿仔，都有受到影響，我想衛福部應該儘快對這樣一個事件去做釐清，針對我們國內的農產品或食品加工品是不是可以做一個相關資訊的公告確認，讓大家可以安心，請部長說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於辣椒的部分，這樣不合理啦，應該跟農業部說一下，臺灣辣椒剛好現在就是最安全的時候，所以它的價錢反而應該可以賣得好一點，不應該會被牽連啦！"],["徐委員富癸：我們還是要請跨部會大家來處理一下，我是覺得這個部分要讓百姓能夠安心啦！尤其部長也很喜歡吃我們屏東的粿仔，所以應該要讓大家能夠更安心的來食用，避免影響到我們整個消費市場。謝謝部長，本席的質詢到這邊結束。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員的質詢。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.53034375,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.68221875,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.32346875,"end":56.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.220343750000005,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.494093750000005,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.34784375000001,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.79096875,"end":111.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.43971875000001,"end":111.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.86159375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.03034375,"end":112.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.89096875000001,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.13471875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.88471875,"end":132.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.71909375,"end":136.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.76909375,"end":138.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.72659375,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.11346875,"end":149.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.50534375,"end":217.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.51534375000003,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.42221875,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.88596875000002,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.33284375000002,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.48034375,"end":231.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":252.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.24784375000002,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.34846875000002,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.02096875,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.99971875000003,"end":254.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":258.33659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.212,"end":12.272,"text":"謝謝主席,有請薛部長好,請薛部長委員好"},{"start":18.673,"end":47.697,"text":"部長午安我想部長是我們國內少數這個具有醫療跟法律背景而且是曾經在地方政府跟中央部會任職過的官員那我想我們都很尊重部長的專業那我想請教部長因為農業部、農事所有重申說國內目前並沒有針對這個米酵菌酸有危害到農作物的一個記錄那也呼籲我們各界安心選用國產食材"},{"start":48.237,"end":76.015,"text":"那針對這部分我想還是要請教部長到底寶林茶室這個案件是屬於個案還是一個通案我們有沒有掌握相關的資訊應該是說它是一個侷限在一個單一的場所的群聚事件應該是這樣講部長那我想你也很瞭解你曾經在屏東縣政府任職過嘛你也要請教我們屏東政客人這從早上早上開始就吃粿了"},{"start":77.956,"end":99.888,"text":"所以這個是貴家店這個生意真的受到很大的衝擊而且我們屏東縣也是這個產米的一個大縣那我們農民也是叫苦連天包含我們這個食品加工廠那目前我們有11個縣市營養午餐、停用果條、拌條甚至我們有重點稽查這個異國料理店這個年輕老闆大家人心惶惶針對這樣的做法部長認為有必要嗎?"},{"start":105.522,"end":119.196,"text":"應該是目前看起來的證據是沒有顯現說這個事件有擴大出去所以一般的所謂的裹條絆條我是覺得應該不用太過擔心不過"},{"start":120.057,"end":149.217,"text":"因為目前這個果現在是大概是果條是一個標的啦那果條的處理過程跟保存的過程是不是有什麼樣的一個問題才導致它產生這個米消菌酸這部分就是正在查的範圍如果有一個結論出來的時候我想我們大概會針對這一點去警告這個社會大眾跟這個業者"},{"start":150.978,"end":165.034,"text":"這裡邀請部長我們盡快釐清,畢竟這個食安問題是大眾關心的一個議題,尤其我們很多鄉親都是用粿仔做主食,大家吃了也比較安心,不會怕嚇唬"},{"start":167.156,"end":189.51,"text":"那我想最近我們一連串包含蘇丹紅還有這個米肖軍村的事件確實造成一些的衝擊那我們有看到我們有三大的受害的族群第一類最嚴重當然是我們直接栽種農作物的農民第二個就是我們的食品加工廠第三個就是餐廳大家這樣苦不堪言"},{"start":190.29,"end":216.675,"text":"那尤其我們屏東這邊的相關的辣椒的價格有下跌三成那寶林茶室的事件也造成我們鄉親這不敢吃粿有受到影響我想衛福部也應該盡快針對這樣一個事件趕快做釐清那針對我們國內的這個農產品或者食品加工品是不是可以做一個相關的資訊的公告確認讓大家可以安心請部長說明"},{"start":218.936,"end":231.289,"text":"這個齁,這有關於那個辣椒齁,這這樣不合理啦,應該跟農業部說說看,臺灣辣椒剛好現在就是最安全的時候,所以他介紹我們不會比較好啦。"},{"start":232.062,"end":232.422,"text":"徐富癸委員"}]}},{"id":"150830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c094dc7343b26e14f325a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6567bf7615706454d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"13:38:15 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13:43:28","影片長度":"00:05:13","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":313,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:43:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T13:38:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1626,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（13時38分）謝謝主席。我請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。最近的食安風暴真的是爆不完，我們國人現在當然非常關心寶林茶室問題；另外的部分，就是日本小林製藥的紅麴案，根據媒體報導，現在臺灣也已經有6位會受到影響，其中3人已經出現腎病變，我知道你們也分別到新北、臺中、臺北再做稽查。所以，我想請問部長，日本小林製藥紅麴食安事件，算不算是一個系統性的風險？"],["薛部長瑞元：很可能是一個系統性的風險，因為這在日本也已經是系統性的風險。"],["王委員鴻薇：在日本已經是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們在臺灣，現在要亡羊補牢，要下架的這個品項大概有226件之多，對不對？未來還會不會再增加，是有可能的。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個要看逐步的……"],["王委員鴻薇：目前不排除嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在有一個最重要的問題，我們注意到小林製藥已經公布要提出3.8億的臺幣給進貨的廠商，因為他們的原料出現了問題，在日本已經造成5人死亡，可能還會繼續的擴大，所以部長也不排除系統性風險。駐日代表謝長廷也說駐日代表處有接獲到我們臺灣人去投訴，所以我在這邊要請問一下，因為這個案件很麻煩，消費者未來可能因此要進入洗腎，在日本有這樣的案例，在臺灣現在也提出從去年開始食用然後有洗腎的狀況，所以請問一下，目前我們要如何確保我們臺灣因小林製藥日本紅麴的受害者可以得到應該有的賠償？目前有沒有相關的機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，第一個，目前我們接受通報，如果有食用相關產品者，因為小林紅麴本身的製品沒有進來，它是原料進來……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，原料進來。"],["薛部長瑞元：原料進來之後是由臺灣的廠商去製作成品出來，所以這一些成品……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以廠商一定會去求償嘛，對不對？可是我們現在也有可能是消費者去求償。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該消費者先會去求償，求償對象可能是我們國內的廠商，因為它屬於它的經銷或者是製造商，所以求償的對象應該第一個是這個。但是這些廠商之後可能會跟日本那邊求償……"],["王委員鴻薇：是，我在這邊為什麼特別提到，你可以看到，現在可能消費者會怕求訴無門，比如說有的跑到我們的日本代表處去求償，有的可能到廠商那裡去求償，有些可能會來詢問我們衛福部怎麼求償，所以對消費者來講，因為廠商一定有自己的律師團隊，所以我們如何保障，包含我們的消費者，包含臺灣的廠商，我覺得我們一定先趕快做一個機制，不要讓我們的消費者感到投訴無門，尤其他如果發現自己有腎病變，需要長期洗腎，這確實是很麻煩的事情，這個可不可以在這個月之內，我覺得這樣都有點久了，如果我是消費者，我一定心急如焚，部長可不可以給我一個時間，建立一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會很快啦！大概一個禮拜之內，我們先把可能的求償程序來跟消費者講。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，就告訴消費者要怎麼樣去求償，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：可能還不需要打到日本的那個……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，應該是……"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我們來看一下，最近日本的食安事件其實非常多，比如3月份的致癌秋刀魚，還有最近的小林製藥紅麴，還有在去年底的綠茶粉，我這邊還少寫了一個，在今年初還發現含有農藥的日本草莓。我要講的就是說，我們對日本的這些食安問題不能夠打折扣，你可以看到最近這麼多食安問題爆發，比如前一陣子蘇丹紅，我們好像就忽視了像致癌的秋刀魚呀，輻射的綠茶粉啊，或者含有農藥過量的日本草莓。","因為今天時間比較晚了，我不想耽誤其他人，我覺得對於日本的食安部分，我們也必須要用最高的規格去對待，而不是反正沒有人注意，媒體沒有什麼太多的報導，然後就忽略不談，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是這樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：好的，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","接下來請賴士葆、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請徐富癸委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.425968750000003,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.285968750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.54534375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.66159375,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.73909375,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.72971875,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.80846875,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.25909375,"end":83.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.31784375000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.06034375,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.72784375,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.23534375,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.11971875,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.91284375,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.27096875,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.70534375,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.16909375,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.49784375000002,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.04596875000001,"end":175.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.86409375000002,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.99471875,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.46284375000002,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.24659375000002,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.91721875000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.26096875000002,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.06596875000002,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臺灣的土壤跟臺灣的植物其實都沒有發現到我們所謂的野毒亞型這個病毒在目前都沒有看到至少目前我們沒有聽過沒有查到所以"},{"start":137.807,"end":148.329,"text":"現在到底這個唐昌普伯克氏菌到底野毒亞型到底從哪裡來的到底是從餐廳來的從餐廳來的但他到底是怎麼樣進入廚房是不是有可能是餐廳然後進入廚房這是第一個問號這是第一個懷疑或者是在生產端就有了現在都不知道嘛現在不知道嘛那如果從生產端出來的那怎麼樣去排除他的風險"},{"start":166.312,"end":169.157,"text":"生產端那一邊的我們也收集了他的簡體來驗也是沒有對 也沒有所以這也就是為什麼國安到現在"},{"start":176.052,"end":177.053,"text":"或者是常規檢測米酵菌酸"},{"start":202.248,"end":226.328,"text":"這個要看這個當然我們現在現在已經有了嘛米肖俊先生現在已經有這個病毒嘛所以我才提出來說未來會不會做指引或做檢測 檢驗的方法跟指引這個是沒有問題現在只是說哪一些東西要做常規的檢驗你要不要想好這要等那個調查到一個程度才有辦法來整理這樣的事情"},{"start":230.782,"end":258.13,"text":"我覺得這個衛福部未來要去做準備因為你有母法地方才有可能稽查現在大家都人性化中央的重要性在那裡為什麼23號第一時間新北市除了通知台北市政府也通知中央也希望你中央可以有動作我提醒你同時兩邊都要做不是說只有地方做只有台北市做中央沒有做我現在沒有在責怪你新北市同一時間"},{"start":259.13,"end":280.649,"text":"通知中央跟地方的目的在這裡那我現在提醒你我不知道你要怎麼做但是未來我才提問說你未來會不會檢測要做這個米酵菌酸常規的檢驗如果要你說還不知道未來要看檢查出來的結果所以我是提醒你看你要做以後地方才有才知道有一個準則嘛對不對"},{"start":282.642,"end":298.849,"text":"因為以現在來看的話好像不是所有的這種所謂的米果的果條的這個製造商那邊出來有問題嘛所以應該是進入到這一個餐廳之後才出問題的"},{"start":300.009,"end":320.758,"text":"阿餐廳到底是哪一個哪一個步驟讓他這個米酵菌酸跑出來這個目前還不知道那我們就要看調查結果如果沒有沒有辦法確定是哪一個那我們就必須要假設說餐廳餐廳處理這個都一定會有問題但是台灣現在已經有米酵菌酸"},{"start":321.698,"end":322.56,"text":"李彥秀委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"150828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01ffbeae8d99d4b5725a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6481db9b9bdfe0f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:21:44 - 13:32:32","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:32:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T13:21:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1564,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時21分）謝謝。麻煩請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。今天一進這個委員會也滿訝異的，就是看到這個變形蟲爵士樂團，部長知道這個樂團嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：老實講，我不知道。"],["陳委員瑩：這是一個純爵士，而且專業的樂團；樂團成員早期都不像我一樣是音樂訓練出身的，但是他們後天的練習都還滿專業，後來有四位團員到Berkeley去做一些專業的學習跟訓練。大家可能不知道，王必勝次長其實是這個樂團的創團元老，他負責什麼樂器呢？他是吹Alto薩克斯風。雖然最近有很多辛苦的食安事件，大家都加班的很辛苦，我想在份內工作做完之後，回頭去看看老朋友，和這些老朋友互相勉勵一下，也不是什麼壞事，而且就我自己學音樂的經驗，我也鼓勵衛福部的各位同仁，在壓力很大的時候，你們也可以在工作做完之後，聽一些音樂，稍微讓自己舒緩一下，整理一下腦袋，再重新出發，隔天應該會有更清楚的思維。以上大概做一個簡單……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員講的，我非常的贊同。事實上，不管怎麼樣，我們面對問題的時候，就是去解決問題，但並不表示我們24小時都必須要綁在這個上面，人如果這樣子，沒辦法過日子啦！"],["陳委員瑩：是，沒錯！我想我從政二十年，這個環境我並不是很喜歡，因為有太多的爾虞我詐，亂七八糟的事情一堆，所以適時的轉移注意力、紓壓，然後再回來面對這些高壓是很重要的。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以，我覺得用這種議題在做質詢，這樣子是不太妥當。"],["陳委員瑩：因為這樣的照片，這樣的燈光，乍看之下，好像跟一些什麼很奇怪的人在奇怪的場所，其實變形蟲爵士樂團的成員都是很正常的，音樂都是很單純的。我也鼓勵大家有空可以去聽一下變形蟲爵士樂團的表演。","我們回到今天質詢的問題。2021年我曾在這裡提到，很多名人的照片被不肖人士盜用，並在網路刊登違規藥品的廣告，那些違規廣告廣告主的ip都在中國，本席要求衛福部應該主動跟那些大的網路社群平臺溝通，並且建立機制。我想請教一下，在本席質詢之後，你們跟臉書或者Google溝通過幾次？每次溝通的時間點跟成效如何？是不是可以請你們報告一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：Meta的部分還沒有達成什麼共識，這個部分還持續在溝通；Google這邊……"],["陳委員瑩：Google應該還沒有吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：Google應該還沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我的辦公室曾正式發函跟你們詢問這件事情，你們回復的內容只說會不定期開會，這個回復對本席來講非常不清楚，我想瞭解完整的內容，大概是哪些時間點去跟臉書或是哪些平臺溝通討論，狀況是怎麼樣？是不是可以整理出來，讓本席瞭解一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們再整理一下，之後再提供給委員。"],["陳委員瑩：依照食藥署回復本席的資料，就是你們去年跟臉書溝通之後，建立了下架違規藥品廣告的這個機制管道，請問部長，截至目前為止，通報給臉書處理的有幾件？"],["薛部長瑞元：我可以請署長說明嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：可以。"],["吳署長秀梅：委員好，我們跟Meta這邊通報，我們試了一件，他們在通報了以後，就立刻下架。"],["陳委員瑩：一件？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，試行了一件，是針對食品的一個廣告。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣子啦，這個通報的數據，因為就只有一件，可能會讓讓大家以為我們現在的網路平臺上好像沒有什麼違規藥品的廣告，現在網路很乾淨，大家很自律，平臺也都很配合？事實並不是如此！請部長看一下這個表格，這也是你們提供給我的數據，109年沒有，110年西藥2件，111年中藥3件，112年你們有數據嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分，回去再查一下。"],["陳委員瑩：好。部長相信這個數據就只有這樣子嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是藥的部分，本來就會比較少，但如果是食品或者營養食品……"],["陳委員瑩：就比較多一點。雖然我同意部長的說法，比例上應該是這樣沒錯；但其實只要在Google或臉書上搜尋，就可以看到一堆違規的廣告，我現在不明白的是就通報臉書一件而已？部長再看一下這幾張圖片，這位是名醫師邱正宏，大家只要搜尋一下他的名字，一堆違規的廣告就會跑出來，我不曉得你們負責監控網路違規藥品廣告的人，到底是怎麼監控的，是不是可以到我們辦公室交換一下意見，我們可以互通一下這個方法？只要點選這些廣告的連結之後，就會跳到他們LINE的帳號，為了取信民眾，他的帳號就是放邱正宏醫師與一些名人的照片，加入他的帳號之後，如果對他有所懷疑，問他地址，他就會馬上跟你說那個地址，而那個地址也真的是邱正宏醫師的地址，可是他們會用各種話術跟你講，請你用電話跟他們聯絡，而這個電話就不是邱醫師診所的電話了，它就是一個固網的區域電話。我跟邱醫師的診所確認過，這個帳號不是他們的，區域電話也不是他們的，就是在賣違規藥品的帳號，他們已經大膽到去申請這個區域電話。本席會後會把完整的這些電話給你們，麻煩你們特別去查清楚。好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，你們已經跟平臺談下架違規藥品廣告的機制，我希望你們也要跟這個平臺提到，刊登這些違規廣告的假帳號也應該要一併刪除，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為一般使用者都可以對有問題的帳號向臉書檢舉，為了國人的健康，我覺得你們更應該主動來跟這個平臺討論這個問題，只要透過你們官方去通知他們這個假帳號，而且確定這個帳號就在刊登違規藥品，就請平臺可以快速的把帳號刪除。部長可不可以去談談看？","再來就是邱正宏醫師的這個帳號，隨便一搜尋，竟然就有上百個，這些帳號都是用來刊登違規藥品的廣告。邱醫師的診所跟我說，民眾常常從這些假帳號，買到中國的減肥藥品，然後就拿著拿著這些偽藥去診所找他們，讓他們覺得非常的困擾。本席希望食藥署可以積極的跟網路平臺溝通，你們目前也只有跟臉書建立管道而已，大一點的平臺至少還有Google也還沒談。如果食藥署跟平臺不好談的話，我建議就換衛福部去；如果衛福部不行的話，就再換行政院去，反正就一定要把它談好就對了。","最後，有關違規藥品分工的部分，你們現在的這個平面廣告是由中醫藥司負責，電視、電臺是由食藥署負責，在監看這些違規廣告的時候，再把案件依業務分類處理，但是現在大家使用頻率最大、最多的，就是網路的部分，你們還是各做各的。分工其實是為了避免人力重疊，本席覺得你們在網路監看的部分，應該要馬上分工，畢竟它的量比較大了一點。所以接下來你們要怎麼跟平臺談？溝通的時間、內容、結果，還有怎麼去分工，麻煩再跟我們報告一下。好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.59284375,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.453468750000003,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.20721875,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":59.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.156593750000006,"end":66.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.95721875000001,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.62721875,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.49534375,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.72159375000001,"end":91.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.54409375,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.91409375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.81659375,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.20721875,"end":143.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.17721875,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.84971875000002,"end":1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謝謝 麻煩請衛福部部長好 請部長委員好"},{"start":23.716,"end":48.338,"text":"部長好今天一進這個委員會也蠻訝異就是看到這個變形蟲爵士樂團部長知道這個樂團嗎老實講我不知道這是一個就是純爵士還蠻專業的這個樂團那樂團的成員呢原先早期都不是就是像我一樣就是音樂訓練出身的但是他們"},{"start":49.079,"end":53.281,"text":"王必勝次長其實是這個團的創團元老他負責什麼樂器呢?他是吹Auto Saxophone"},{"start":72.848,"end":89.289,"text":"所以那一天我想在雖然最近有很多的這個很辛苦的這個食安事件我想大家都加班的很辛苦那我想在這個份內工作做完之後那回頭去看看老朋友"},{"start":90.27,"end":107.026,"text":"給這些老朋友互相勉勵一下我想也不是什麼壞事啦而且就我自己本身學音樂的經驗我也鼓勵衛福部的各位同仁在壓力很大的時候你們也可以在工作做完之後"},{"start":107.626,"end":111.527,"text":"我非常贊同事實上不管怎麼樣我們面對問題的時候就是去解決問題"},{"start":135.996,"end":161.809,"text":"但是並不表示說我們24小時都會都必須要綁在這個上面那人這樣沒辦法過日子是沒錯那我想我從這20年這個環境我並不是很喜歡因為太多的這個爾虞我詐然後亂七八糟的事情一堆那所以我想在適時的轉移注意力抒壓然後再回來面對這些高壓是很重要的是所以我認為說用這種議題在做質詢的話我覺得這樣子是"},{"start":165.971,"end":166.551,"text":"我們回到我們今天質詢的問題"},{"start":193.079,"end":215.966,"text":"部長在這個2021年我在這裡有提到就是說有很多名人的照片被不肖的人士盜用那在網路刊登違規藥品的廣告那些違規廣告的這個廣告主IP都在中國但是我也要要求就是說要求衛福部那應該要主動跟那些大的網路社群平台溝通並且建立機制"},{"start":216.346,"end":222.272,"text":"在本席質詢過之後,你們跟臉書或Google溝通過幾次,每次溝通的時間點跟成效如何?"},{"start":233.363,"end":246.262,"text":"在Meta這個部分的話還沒有達成什麼共識這個部分還是持續在溝通Google這邊我們Google應該還沒有吧Google應該還沒有"},{"start":248.01,"end":275.85,"text":"因為我的辦公室正式發函跟你們詢問這件事情你們回覆的內容只有說會不定期開會那這個對本席來講是非常不清楚的所以我想要了解就是說整個完整的內容然後大概有哪些時間點有跟哪個臉書哪些平台溝通討論的狀況是怎麼樣我希望是不是可以整理"},{"start":277.19,"end":304.158,"text":"讓本席瞭解一下這我們再整理一下再提供因為依照食藥署回覆本席的資料就是你們在去年跟臉書溝通然後建立一個下架違規藥品廣告的這個機制管道那部長你知道截至目前為止通報給臉書處理的有幾件嗎我是可以請署長好可以"},{"start":306.612,"end":315.849,"text":"委員好,那我們跟META這邊通報,那我們有試了一件齁,那他們通報了以後就立刻下架,對。"},{"start":317.95,"end":339.935,"text":"事前的意見對對食品的針對食品的一個廣告我想是這樣子因為這個通報的數據就是因為只有一件可能會讓大家以為說我們現在網路平台上已經好像沒有什麼違規藥品的廣告現在網路都很乾淨然後大家很自律平台也都很配合"},{"start":340.555,"end":351.624,"text":"因為但是事實並不是如此喔因為部長你看一下這個表格齁這也是你們提供給我的數據就是說你看喔109年沒有嘛齁110年西藥兩件111年中藥三件那112年我是沒有看到你們有嗎有112年的嗎"},{"start":362.521,"end":377.834,"text":"這再回去再查一下部長你覺得這個數據是你相信就只有這樣子嗎如果是藥的部分的話本來它就會比較少但是如果是食品"},{"start":384.217,"end":404.304,"text":"我同意雖然我同意部長的說法這個比例上應該是這樣沒錯但是部長其實你只要在google或臉書上一搜尋就可以看到這個違規的廣告有一堆那但是我是不明白就是說這個通報一件臉書而已那你再看一下我們接下來這幾張"},{"start":406.505,"end":430.881,"text":"這位是名醫師邱振宏那大家只要搜尋一下他的名字一堆違規的廣告就會跑出來那我不曉得你們負責監控這個網路違規藥品廣告的人到底是怎麼監控的那我們也就是說可以到我們辦公室交換一下交換一下這個我們可以互通一下這個方法嗎"},{"start":431.721,"end":457.747,"text":"那這些廣告你們只要點選連結之後他就會跳到他們LINE的帳號那看一下這個照片LINE的帳號那他們為了取信民眾他的帳號就是放邱振宏醫師與一些名人的照片那你再加入他的帳號之後呢你如果對他有所懷疑的時候你問他地址那他就會馬上跟你說那個地址而且那個地址呢也真的是那個邱振宏醫師的地址可是呢"},{"start":458.467,"end":472.05,"text":"他們會用各種話術跟你講說請你還是用電話跟他們聯絡那而且這個上面的電話就不是邱醫師診所的電話了他就是一個固網的區域電話那我有跟這個邱醫師的診所確認過這個帳號不是他們的那區域電話也不是他們的"},{"start":478.312,"end":491.387,"text":"這就是在賣違規藥品的帳號他們已經大膽到去申請這個區域電話所以會後我會把這個完整的這些電話給你們要麻煩你們特別去查清楚好不好"},{"start":493.114,"end":510.143,"text":"好那再來就是說你們已經有跟平台談一下這個談這個下架違規藥品的廣告的機制那我希望就是說應該也要連同跟這個平台要提到就是刊登這些違規廣告的假帳號應該要一併刪除好不好"},{"start":512.904,"end":541.011,"text":"那再來因為一般使用者都可以對於這個有問題的帳號向臉書檢舉所以我覺得為了這個國人的健康你們應該更應該要主動的跟這個平台來討論這個問題只要透過你們官方的這個通知的這個假帳號通知他們的假帳號而且確定帳號呢就是在刊登違規藥品的話呢就請平台可以快速的把帳號刪除在部長可不可以去談談看"},{"start":543.023,"end":562.148,"text":"那再來就是說因為你們邱振宏醫師的這個帳號隨便一搜尋竟然有上百個那些帳號都是用來刊登違規藥品的廣告那邱醫師診所他們有跟我講說常常民眾呢在這些假帳號上面買到中國的這個減肥藥品"},{"start":563.888,"end":584.786,"text":"好減肥藥然後就拿著拿著這些藥呢這些偽藥去診所找他們讓他們覺得非常的困擾所以我希望食藥署可以積極的跟網路平台溝通那你們目前也是只有跟臉書建立管道而已齁那大一點的平台那至少就還有google也還沒談那如果食藥署去跟平台談的時候假如不好談"},{"start":585.708,"end":585.728,"text":"好．"},{"start":597.613,"end":622.651,"text":"最後就是說有關違規藥品分工的部分因為現在是你們現在的這個平面廣告由中醫藥師負責那電視、電台是由食藥署負責在監看這些違規廣告的時候再把案件依業務分類處理但是現在大家使用頻率最大最多的網路就是網路的部分你們還是各做各的"},{"start":623.632,"end":623.652,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07574c9f5d8de375525a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6a4a61b3d72e34b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:14:02 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Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:55:57 - 13:13:27","影片長度":"00:17:30","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":1050,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:13:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:55:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1122,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時56分）主席好，各位委員好。有請綜規處的雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長。"],["主席：好，我們請綜規處的雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主委沒有來，只好找處長。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：你好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，很好。我們看這個今天原民會的報告，特別提到已經列了很多次了原住民族自治區法、原住民族自治法、原住民族自治暫行條例。從程序性立法，到實質性立法，到階段性立法，原民會的報告寫了很多，已經寫了不只一次，相當有困難度。","但很重要的就是，原民會從105年編列原住民族自治的預算，從105年到113年也就是今年，總共已經編列了3,639萬8,000元，民脂民膏，真的非常非常的可惜。","有看到原民會今天的報告，現階段本會遵循蔡英文總統裁示方向，已經改了，105年8月1號蔡總統承諾，我們會很快的將原住民族自治法送到立法院，我不知道什麼時候改的，因為你這邊沒有寫時間。怎麼了？重來，抱歉、抱歉！"],["主席：沒關係，時間暫停。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：怎麼會？"],["主席：我們請議事人員麻煩協助處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。好，開始。110年3月12號蘇貞昌在答詢本席的質詢的時候有特別提到，關於制定原住民族自治法，蘇院長答復我，他承諾會分流立法，至今已經3年多了，到現在還沒有看到所謂分流立法的草案。","就算是蔡總統剛才講的這個也應該要提出法律案，雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努，你應該要提出來，你應該要跟主委報告，我們要趕快送審，所以也沒有。陳水扁總統的時候提了3次程序性的立法，未獲原住民族立委的支持，馬英九總統執政時，第一個，有83條的原住民族自治法草案，實質性的立法，後來第二任的時候提出原住民族自治暫行條例草案，階段性的立法，這個階段性立法其實就是分流立法。","原住民族自治法的草案在100年，當時高金素梅委員在立法院內政委員會審查，完成了這個原住民族自治法的草案，有行政院版及無黨團結聯盟所提出的黨團版，還有林正二委員、孔文吉委員所提出來的版本，經過5次朝野協商，在100年6月13號朝野協商的版本送到院會。決議為：「本案因尚待協商，現作如下決議：『協商有結論時，提出本次會議處理。』」因為沒有完成協商，為什麼沒有完成協商？高金素梅委員在這邊，無黨團結聯盟有簽字，國民黨黨團有簽字，那時候只有3個黨團，另外一個黨團不簽字。101年原住民的立法委員還是不放棄，再送院會，一樣，協商後再行處理。因為還是沒有簽字。這個就是整個從99年12月23、27、29日內政委員會很辛苦的審查，然後再召開5次的黨團協商，就是沒有簽字，民進黨團不簽字，所以就沒有通過，很可惜，真的很可惜。所以雅柏甦詠有時候要跟政務官講，我們要拋棄政黨，我們要以原住民族為第一優先。","我們看這個原住民族自治暫行條例，那時候本席已經當立法委員，從第8屆開始，高金素梅委員也在場，我們很認真的把這個原住民族自治暫行條例行政院版本改為原住民族自治推動條例，這個就是階段性立法，也就是蘇貞昌院長所講的分流立法，但是很可惜，那時候被罵得一塌糊塗，沒有土地、沒有經費、沒有財政，但是如果我們仔細看，雅柏甦詠，你下次把這個條文給主委看，非常棒的條文啊！雖然沒有土地，有啊！還是有土地，原住民族土地及自然資源的管理，自然保育的管理都有，所以這個部分很可惜，真的是很可惜。你看，朝野協商我們都簽字了，高金素梅也有簽字，由我鄭天財代理主持，張慶忠召委他說，這個原住民的法案，你來主持。我來主持。真的是很可惜。","我們看這個原住民族土地使用管理規則，杜張梅莊處長。"],["主席：杜張處長，謝謝。不需要雅柏回答嗎？他聽就好？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：先坐一下好了。Sabau（你好、辛苦了）。"],["杜張處長梅莊：Sabau。（你好、辛苦了）。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你的管理規則草案寫「位於原住民族土地」，這個就是一個陷阱，雖然你的說明有寫，包含以前傳統調查那個部分，但是實際上在執行的時候，內政部就會告訴你，這個不行啊！這個只是說明。你看你的草案第五條也是「位於原住民族土地上」，第二條也是一樣，「原住民族土地之建蔽率及容積率」，到時候內政部，包括別的部會，會怎麼去打臉？它就拿出你的法律、你的法規──原住民族土地劃設辦法，原住民族土地是傳統領域跟既有的原住民保留地，原住民族傳統領域土地是公有土地。這條文就形同虛設了，我們原來蓋的房子沒有辦法合法化，因為是公有土地，對不對？然後在私有土地的不算啊！就會產生這個問題，所以我建議就把它定在條文裡面，我們就直接定在條文裡，部落範圍裡面的私有土地，不限於原住民保留地，包含平地原住民部落範圍裡面的私有土地，把它寫清楚，因為這個規則跟這個辦法是平行的，就可以排除它，就不會有這樣的一個陷阱。"],["杜張處長梅莊：委員，我可以說明嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。"],["杜張處長梅莊：委員，剛剛講那個都對啦！我的意思是我們跟國土署協調是以屬人主義，是原住民身分的就會有這樣的一個權益，這個也是我們擔心，如果是原住民身分，未來土地如果不是原保地，它會不會轉嫁到非原的身上，這個是我們考慮的。所以剛剛委員講的那個，依照我們現在討論的這個方向是不太容易發生，我的意思是這樣。如果委員覺得這樣不是很周全的話，我們再考慮，再跟國土署討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一定要。","接下來請有關原住民族學校法的教文處先來。"],["主席：我們請教文處處長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：原住民族教育法第十五條規定得很清楚，要另以法律定制，就立法、就提出草案，為什麼呢？你不要等什麼、什麼、什麼還沒有，我們回顧民國57年，國民政府時代，被現在的法律稱為威權統治時期，民國57年國民義務教育要到9年，從6年變9年、國中，那時候老師不足，照樣推行，何況這麼多年、幾十年了之後，我們師資不足嗎？太足了。我們的資料不足嗎？太足了。我們原住民族學院已經推動那麼多年了，所以最起碼你提出草案，然後你可以等什麼時候執行，執行由行政院另定之，也可以啊！這個加油。"],["楊處長正斌：我們現在會跟教育部這邊進一步做評估。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：羅馬拼音是誰的？我們也請董事長來。"],["主席：請馬耀．谷木。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有姓名條例是誰的？"],["主席：姓名條例是雅柏甦詠。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：112年臺北高等行政法院的判決，單列原住民族傳統名字可以用羅馬拼音、原住民族文字，最高法院判決勝訴，這裡面引用了憲法還有很多相關的大法官解釋，也引用了原住民族語言發展法第一條的第一句話，就是本席所堅持提出來的，原住民族語言是國家語言，因為這一句話，臺北高等行政法院引用了，然後做了解釋，所以就判決勝訴。這個法律整個論述非常清楚，有時間的時候好好看。我在112年11月9號質詢了內政部部長，我說既然最高法院判決了，你協調臺北新北市政府，不要上訴，還好新北市政府沒有上訴，我當初要求內政部部長，既然法院判決了就可以依法來解釋，所以負責主管這個部分的雅柏甦詠，趕快辦理解釋，可以嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：跟委員報告，上個禮拜行政院有找本會跟內政部針對這個部分……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：趕快解釋。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：之後我們會循解釋的方式去處理這件事情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。教文處還有馬耀．谷木，族語AI技術系統研發，這個部分，原住民族語言發展法第十條規定得很清楚，要調查什麼相關族語能力等，然後本席也召開過協調會，在去年6月8日跟7月7日召開過兩次協調會，即族語AI語音及時翻譯系統協調會，這個部分原民會跟語發基金會也在進行當中，所以這個部分要繼續努力、要加油。","族語教師不足方面，原民會、教文處及語發基金會，現在學前教育、十二年國教都要族語教學，但是我們的族語教師嚴重不足，這是什麼時候的文？是111年8月22日的文，我每次都質詢教育部部長，還是缺了三百多人，非常非常可惜，這也是一個就業的機會，這個部分我也開過協調會，所以你們要加強落實，就開班啊！補習班啊！中高級通過且願意當族語老師的，就考高級族語研習班、訓練班，這個部分要去推動，所以這是一個需要加強的部分。","另外，等一下要審查原基法第二十條之一，本席為了這個，我早上有提到一個八十幾歲的老先生，為了這個案子，我寫了4次信給夷將主委，土管處處長，你有沒有看過這封信？我寫了4次，4封信都不同時間寫的。"],["杜張處長梅莊：有看過。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：很可惜就這樣被判決了，判決有期徒刑，然後這八十幾歲老先生就這樣過世了。原來是怎麼樣？根本就弄錯了！法官弄錯，檢察官弄錯，原民會有去，你們有去喔！也沒有好好的去指導這些法官。"],["杜張處長梅莊：我們有跟法官說這不是山坡地的範圍。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是還是被判，因為……"],["杜張處長梅莊：他那個是侵占的問題，是另外一個層面。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是、不是，你錯了！"],["杜張處長梅莊：他用山坡地範圍去罰他。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你錯了、你錯了！這個判決書我看得很清楚，因為他依山坡地保育利用條例去判決就錯啦！"],["杜張處長梅莊：對，沒有錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對不對？沒有錯吧？對啊，因為它不是山坡地，他用山坡地保育利用條例就錯了！所以為了避免繼續犯這樣的錯，避免我們的鄉親繼續被判刑，所以要趕快修，因為原住民族保留地管理利用條例什麼時候會通過不知道，請問一下，這一件你們有送給行政院了嗎？"],["杜張處長梅莊：我們現在準備把草案整理完以後……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還沒有送？"],["杜張處長梅莊：我們會送。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對嘛，還沒有送。所以這個部分，我們就先通過原基法第二十條之一，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，謝謝。因為今天的議案真的比較多，大家真的非常辛苦。","登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員蘇巧慧、林倩綺、丁學忠、陳培瑜所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢跟未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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真的非常非常的可惜"},{"start":91.448,"end":115.466,"text":"人民會的報告今天現階段本會遵循蔡英文總統才是方向已經改了105年的8月1號蔡總統承諾我們會很快的將原住民族自治法送到立法院我不知道什麼時候改的因為你這邊沒有寫時間了怎麼了"},{"start":121.818,"end":135.921,"text":"重來抱歉抱歉沒關係我們暫停時間一下怎麼會我們請議事人員麻煩協助處理謝謝從頭從頭我沒有按這變成別人的"},{"start":152.602,"end":153.202,"text":"這個110年3月12號110年蘇貞昌在答詢本席的質詢的時候他特別提到"},{"start":179.448,"end":205.706,"text":"對於制定原住民族自治法書院長答覆我會分流立法承諾分流立法已經三年多了到現在還沒有看到所謂的分流立法的草案到現在就算蔡總統剛才講的這個也要提出法律案了也要提出法律案"},{"start":206.633,"end":230.115,"text":"你提出來那根不足那個主委報告我們要趕快送所以也沒有我們看陳總統陳水扁總統的時候提了三次程序性的立法未獲原住民主委的立委的支持這邊打錯了未獲原住民的立委的支持馬英九總統"},{"start":232.264,"end":255.686,"text":"第一個83條的原住民族自治法草案實質性的立法後來第二項的時候提出原住民族自治暫行條例草案階段性的立法這個階段性立法其實就是分流立法了其實就是分流立法好原住民族自治法的草案在"},{"start":256.718,"end":284.503,"text":"一百年立法院內政委員會當時我們的高金素美委員就在內政委員會審查完成了這個原住民族自治法的草案行政院版還有五黨團結聯盟所提出的黨團版林鄭二委員孔文吉委員所提出來的然後經過草野協商"},{"start":286.092,"end":310.946,"text":"五次草野協商五次草野協商在一百年六月十三號草野協商的版本送到院會本案應上代協商做以下結論協商結論提出因為沒有完成協商為什麼沒有完成協商高津素美委員在這邊五黨團結聯盟有簽字國民黨黨團有簽字"},{"start":317.454,"end":338.189,"text":"為另外一個黨團那時候就有三個黨團另外一個黨團不簽字101年立法委員原住民的六還是不放棄再送院會一樣協商後再行處理因為還是沒有簽字還沒有簽字好這個就是整個"},{"start":340.302,"end":368.427,"text":"從99年12月23、27、29內政委員會很辛苦的審查然後再召開5次的黨團協商就是沒有簽字民進黨團不簽字所以就沒有通過很可惜真的很可惜所以這個有什麼使用有時候要跟政務官講我要拋棄政黨的我們要以原住民族為第一優先要這樣"},{"start":369.858,"end":395.024,"text":"好我們看這個暫行條例原住民族暫行條例原住民族自治暫行條例那時候本席已經當立法委員從第8屆開始高金素美委員也在場我們把這個很認真的暫行條例原住民族自治暫行條例行政院版本我們把它改為原住民族自治推動條例這個就是階段性立法"},{"start":396.095,"end":422.165,"text":"也就是所謂的朱貞昌院長所講的分流立法但是呢很可惜那時候被罵得一塌糊塗啊沒有土地、沒有經費、沒有財政但是如果我們仔細看這個 亞伯師傅未來你下次齁把這個條文啊給主委看啊非常大的條文啊"},{"start":424.765,"end":448.736,"text":"雖然沒有土地有啊還是有土地啊原住民族土地及自然資源的管理耶自然保育的管理都有啊所以這個部分啊很可惜啊真的是很可惜好你看財務協商我們都簽字了高興樹莓也有簽字鄭天才我代理主持了張勁忠啊"},{"start":451.984,"end":453.884,"text":"原住民族土地使用管理規則管理規則草案"},{"start":479.386,"end":505.746,"text":"未移原住民族土地這個就是一個陷阱雖然你的說明雖然你的說明雖然有寫包含你以前傳統你調查那個部分但是實際上在執行的時候內政部就會告訴你這個不行啊你的這個只是說明啊你看你的草案第5條也是未移原住民族土地上"},{"start":510.019,"end":522.76,"text":"原住民族土地建壁力、容積力到時候內政部會怎麼去打臉包括別的部會他就拿出你的法律、法規原住民族土地"},{"start":523.783,"end":547.83,"text":"化設辦法原住民族土地是傳統領域跟既有的原住民保育地原住民族傳統領域土地是公有土地你就被形同形同這個條文就形同膝射了這公有土地我們怎麼能我們原來蓋的房子怎麼能夠沒有辦法合法啊因為這公有土地啊對不對然後再私有土地的不算啊就會產生這個問題所以我的建議"},{"start":553.345,"end":582.888,"text":"就把它定在條文裡面我們就直接定在條文什麼呢部落的範圍裡面的私有土地部落範圍裡面的私有土地不限於原住民保留地包含平地原住民部落的範圍裡面的私有土地把它寫清楚因為這個規則齁這個規則跟這個辦法是平行的就可以排除它"},{"start":583.691,"end":585.722,"text":"就不會有這樣的一個陷阱。"},{"start":588.161,"end":615.817,"text":"委員剛剛講那個都對啦那我的意思是說我們跟國土署協調是以屬人主義啦是原住民身份的就會有這樣的一個權益這個也是我們擔心說如果原住民身份未來土地如果不是原保地不是這個他會不會轉嫁到飛遠的身上這個是我們考慮的所以現在剛剛委員講那個依照我們現在討論的這個方向是不太容易發生我的意思是這樣那如果委員覺得說這樣子不是很很周全的話那我們再考慮再跟國土署再看一定要一定要"},{"start":617.509,"end":643.546,"text":"好,我們接下來請那個這個原住民族學校法這個教文處我們請教文處處長還有那個教文處先來好原住民族學校法第15條規定的原住民族教育法第15條規定的很清楚要另以法律定制就立法就提出草案為什麼呢你不要等什麼什麼什麼還沒有"},{"start":644.721,"end":669.867,"text":"我們回顧民國五十七年民國五十七年國民政府時代被現在的法律稱為威權統治時期民國五十七年國民義務教育要到九年六年變九年國中那時候老師不足照樣推行"},{"start":671.223,"end":695.871,"text":"老實不足照樣推行何況這麼多年幾十年了之後我們資質不足嗎太足了我們的資料不足嗎太足了我們原住民族學院已經推動那麼多年了所以最起碼你法律提出草案然後呢你可以等什麼時候的時候什麼時候執行執行而另遊行者認定是也可以啊"},{"start":697.076,"end":699.657,"text":"112年臺北高等行政法院的判決"},{"start":726.873,"end":756.068,"text":"單列原住民族傳統名字可用羅馬拼音原住民族文字法院最高法院判決勝訴這裡面以了憲法還有相關的這些我們很多的大法官的解釋人權先也引用了什麼呢?原住民族語言發展法第一條的第一句話就是本席所堅持的提出來的原住民族語言是國家語言"},{"start":756.516,"end":785.495,"text":"因為這一計畫所以行政法院臺北高等行政法院引用了然後做了解釋所以就判決勝訴這個法律整個論述非常清楚有時間的時候好好看這裡面我在112年11月9號質詢的內政部部長我說居然最高法院判決了"},{"start":786.38,"end":810.37,"text":"你協調新北市政府不要上訴還好新北市政府沒有上訴然後我當初要求內政部部長既然法院判決了就解釋可以依法來解釋所以這個部分負責主管的部分趕快辦理解釋"},{"start":814.141,"end":843.124,"text":"跟委員報告就是上個禮拜行政院有找本會跟內政部針對這部分對就是趕快解釋那之後我們會尋解釋的方式去處理這件事情好那個教研處還有那個馬來西亞國務卿這個足以AI技術系統的研發這個部分我們原住民族語言發展法第10條規定的函數要調查什麼相關的足以能力的提升"},{"start":845.358,"end":873.688,"text":"本席也召開過協調會在去年的6月8號跟7月7號召開兩次協調會主與AI語音即時翻譯系統協調會這個部分你們也在進行的原民會跟這個以發基金會所以這個部分要繼續努力要加油主與教師部組、原民會、教文處還有以發會"},{"start":875.663,"end":898.732,"text":"立法基金會現在學前教育12年國教都要主語教學但是我們的主語教師嚴重不足這個是怎麼說的111年8月22號的文我每次都質詢教育部部長還是切爾300多人非常非常的可惜"},{"start":900.003,"end":912.943,"text":"所以這個也是一個就業的機會所以這個部委開過協調會所以你們要加強的來去落實就開班了補習班了那個那個叫什麼"},{"start":915.363,"end":936.953,"text":"中高級通過的願意當族裔老師的就考高級族裔教研習班訓練班這個部分要去推動所以這個部分是一個需要去加強的部分那另外就是說今天今天的那個今天等一下要審查的研究法這個20條之一"},{"start":940.233,"end":963.427,"text":"本席為了這個我早上有提到的一個老先生八十幾歲八十幾歲那個圖管處圖管處上來我寫了四次寫信給以將主委為了這個案子這個美莊你有沒有看過這封信"},{"start":964.87,"end":979.676,"text":"寫了四次,四封信不同時間寫的喔?很可惜,就這樣被判決,你看判決有期徒刑,這老先生八十幾歲就這樣過世,原來是怎麼樣?根本就弄錯了"},{"start":981.701,"end":1004.194,"text":"法官弄錯檢察官弄錯也沒有會去有去喔你沒有去喔也沒有好好的去指導這些法官我們有跟那個法官講說這不是山坡地方當時還是被判他那個是侵佔的不是不是不是你錯了他用山坡地方你錯了你錯了我看了這個判決書看得很清楚"},{"start":1005.097,"end":1010.04,"text":"原住民族保留地管理利用條例什麼時候會通過不知道請問一下你們有送給行政院了嗎這一屆"},{"start":1034.016,"end":1048.51,"text":"我們現在準備把草案整理完以後我們會送對嘛還沒有送嘛所以這個部分我們就先通過這個研究法第20條之一以上謝謝好非常謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c087006f0d508b6e04f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6f9d33c05e56a85b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":319,"end_time":"2024-04-01T09:15:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T09:10:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.35471875,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.755343750000002,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.89409375,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.297843750000002,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.38534375,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.148468750000003,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.17784375,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.60784375,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.05909375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.42596875,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.83471875,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.31971875,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.024093750000006,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.002218750000004,"end":50.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.94284375,"end":51.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.507843750000006,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.45659375,"end":57.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.283468750000004,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.61659375000001,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.57409375,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.11784375,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.10909375,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.84284375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.07471875,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.73659375000001,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.43596875,"end":83.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.30471875,"end":84.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.70971875000001,"end":87.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.34221875,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.04659375,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.30784375,"end":92.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.38346875,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.79659375,"end":96.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.69909375,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.57221875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.88846875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.62221875,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.74846875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.22471875000001,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.86159375000001,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.10596875,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.78034375000001,"end":119.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.64096875000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.71221875,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.51346875,"end":132.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.07346875000002,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":137.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.33846875,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.94159375,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.43909375,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.82659375,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.12596875,"end":149.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.64034375,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.24784375000002,"end":151.7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吹吹吹行政院終於在107年10月4號在行政院院會農委會所提出來的同意要修正這裡面特別結議"},{"start":202.625,"end":228.408,"text":"本條例第37條為規範原住民保留地啟德管理事項之法紀上有不足無法含瓜非山坡地之原住民保留地這個是立行政院的院會院長所作的結語無法含瓜非山坡地之原住民保留地寫得非常非常的明確"},{"start":229.841,"end":257.91,"text":"那到底現在實行好像沒什麼問題問題很多我就舉一個案例這種案例還不少有一個案例我們的鄉親八十幾歲他從小耕種的在原住民保育地裡面結果被隔壁的瑞穗牧場提告最後被判決被判決什麼呢判決有期徒刑"},{"start":259.502,"end":284.255,"text":"原來是因為財團法官沒有上進責任法官也誤判以為是在山坡地保育令條例的範圍裡面以為是在山坡地範圍內因為法律的依據是山坡地保育令條例上7條啊所以被判刑了這個老人家被判刑了之後還非常的氣憤"},{"start":287.293,"end":301.525,"text":"幾天之後就過世身體很好的所以不要忽視這種案例很多所以人民會請支持立法院所提出來的修正條項以上謝謝"},{"start":303.305,"end":315.863,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員的提案說明我們現在就請原民會主任委員一將把握報告一將今天因為我們有非常多的專案報告所以我們給他多一點時間給他6分鐘來做專案報告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c00fba638ceeec52fa25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a669d5f650bb07ff395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:06:23 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想這部分的確我們台灣基產公司他現在已經有這個計畫我也要求他們一定要落實那有沒有要求驗收的單位確實做到就是在明年的話不會再發生同樣的情形董事長說是 非常謝謝委員今年的這個公選是整個把過去的一行下二行下我們在過去的觀察到的這些漏水點的記錄全部都已經很清楚"},{"start":349.296,"end":376.156,"text":"那這一次的處理是全面的把所有有可能有接縫點的這些填縫器要全部再做修補因為最主要的問題出現在填縫器另外就是航廈之間它有一些可能是在屋頂上的一些集水系統那個部分問題比較少那現在最不容易處理的是在強風豪雨的時候風速很大把這些水從填縫器的那些隙縫帶出來那這個部分是我們現在要改善的目標"},{"start":376.956,"end":378.999,"text":"謝謝董事長 這邊要請光光署長 周署長"},{"start":387.645,"end":409.681,"text":"委員好 署長好 在3月6號交通部的業務報告中本席有問過署長部長說不管今年入客會不會來都希望可以達到1200萬人次這個是怎麼算出來的 因為本席有向觀光署就是提要求書面資料那3月14號書面回覆第一季預估是190萬人那今天部長有提到這個數字是195萬人"},{"start":411.502,"end":428.556,"text":"如果照這個預估的話今年可能連一千萬人次都沒有辦法達到那上週五周署長您也對媒體說談論下半年如果入客沒有開放的話那這個一千萬人次根本沒有辦法達到的那也有業者質疑說如果下修到一千萬人次"},{"start":429.537,"end":430.638,"text":"今天是4月1號那掌握到的第一季出境旅客人數統計"},{"start":450.228,"end":463.775,"text":"市委跟委員報告一下其實我們都不應該有數字迷失不過我們應該有目標管理那麼我們這個如果含入客的話我們現在恢復的疫情之前比較是七成"},{"start":464.966,"end":480.765,"text":"那麼若扣掉入客的話是恢復到疫情前的九成那少了入客為主的兩百萬人次那有沒有去了解就是在我們台灣一些地區還有景點受最嚴重的影響的地區是哪一些地方"},{"start":482.193,"end":482.213,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":499.486,"end":501.027,"text":"目前如果以第一季來看我跟委員報告幾個數字"},{"start":517.379,"end":536.503,"text":"1月的時候大概59萬來 2月62萬 3月已經到75萬了所以每個月事實上都有在增加所以前面你看看到如果200乘以4是800但是事實上它是一直在增加的所以我們是覺得第二季234是可以的"},{"start":536.943,"end":559.512,"text":"那因為署長在前陣子有跟我做一個說明的確我當時在確定這個目標入客200到250萬也是在裡面有這個部分但是的確在到目前為止我是完全看不到中國大陸有任何要放自由行動團客來的這個跡象所以他們在跟我說明的時候我也同意說"},{"start":561.032,"end":561.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":590.995,"end":591.116,"text":"謝謝部長 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謝謝主席有請我們交通部王部長王國光局我們趙局長請高光局趙局長"},{"start":14.33,"end":39.383,"text":"這個地方交通電視其實在這個過去的一屆也長期在跟我們部長跟局長長期來討教我們現在先來這個問一下因為我在上一屆第一次的總諮詢就是問的是我們中壢大家很需要的中風交流道那現在當然有進度我們往北向的沙道這個部分我們預計現在正在施工"},{"start":41.444,"end":63.696,"text":"預計114年明年年底完工這個目標我們講過蠻多次的現在進度如何?狀況如何?明年底完工的可能性如何?跟委員報告中峰交道目前進展還算順利3月29號我們那個山車道的部分已經延伸到就是閘道的口那部分已經先透光完那整個一個疏解"},{"start":65.337,"end":66.279,"text":"現在還是目標就是明年底嘛"},{"start":80.439,"end":101.895,"text":"我們希望說繼續我們來注意施工的一個品質希望能夠如期如質能夠在明年年底我們整個不光是我們南區事實上整個全國人民都多一個交流道好下這個部分要特別拜託你那現在隨著中峰北路交流道他有拓寬這個路段那個路段已經開放了嗎還是已經開放了嗎"},{"start":105.337,"end":134.74,"text":"對於我們內地交流道上去的那個有沒有疏解作用?對於下游的部分的一個疏解有很大的一個改善那我們現在目前在觀察中會把這整個觀察結果再跟委託好那第二個勒其實等了四年啦因為剛好是109年的四月份那一年第一次的總諮詢那時候我們的這個目標是中風交流道當然是要南北雙套啦因為我們現在後面因為北邊有錢所以我們先做了看起來現在也沒有錯明年就完工了"},{"start":135.36,"end":135.98,"text":"中峰北路交流到第二期南向"},{"start":161.894,"end":188.407,"text":"可並同武陽高架直接往苗栗南沿到頭份拓寬那個計畫再行檢討目前進度如何跟委員報告就是說院合訂之後的話目前我們已經委託顧問公司就是做武陽的北段的那一家中心顧問目前在辦理相關的一個評估了那這個部分的話我會朝著就是說跟武陽的完工啟程是同樣的時間完成一起把它處理起來"},{"start":190.008,"end":209.7,"text":"現在因為剛剛那個先決條件要並同國道1號楊梅頭份段這樣的一個南沿工程那這個部分在去年的12月已經行政院核定了就是這個主體的所以我們南向因為道路不夠寬怕上去反而堵車所以當時我們討論了我們理解了那要等"},{"start":210.12,"end":236.074,"text":"我們南沿到苗栗透寬之後我們南沿就可以來做那現在行政委員合併通過了也看到你們抓的那個這個往苗栗舞陽高架繼續南沿的工程在預計115年啊就後年就開工啊要到121年完工啊所以我今天的講法是說等了4年也終於等到當時說要配合南沿的一個主要的計畫他也通過了"},{"start":236.934,"end":256.286,"text":"所以我現在要拜託一下就是我們有跟高中局調資料嘛你們這個這樣的時程表會不會落實啊我們那個鄉親都很關心啊也就是說今年今年你剛剛講的請多中心顧問可行進評估綜合規劃有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":257.146,"end":258.607,"text":"明年很快就到了中規工程設計用地取得明年的經費"},{"start":279.684,"end":281.386,"text":"明年只能辦到設計還沒辦法去辦用地114年我直接說因為一個計畫"},{"start":298.423,"end":312.203,"text":"如果沒有壓時間那就是笑話一個計畫如果沒有具體的經費那就是鬼話嘛所以我今天要確定時間對不對經費有沒有那你老實說明年終歸大概要編多少費用"},{"start":312.964,"end":328.645,"text":"明年的中規的費用目前還在就是我們委託中心的那個案子裡面一起來用掉了那用地的部分必須要115年115年我才會再好那我想這樣因為你們給我的時間表是這樣的我們希望大家努力朝這個方向"},{"start":329.266,"end":329.666,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":349.472,"end":350.772,"text":"我們局長已經都把他拉到跟舞陽一起設計了"},{"start":372.859,"end":398.679,"text":"然後他走過綜合規劃這個部分也有他個別的經費我們就以115年施工為目標好那公務總局這個現在局長還是部長你們知不知道一個這樣覺得部分營業這個等於說算是高風險的營業車輛已經慢慢要進入一個無保時代所謂主要是"},{"start":399.62,"end":415.812,"text":"他們的車輛到齊了每年保一次第三責任險第三責任險主要是說這樣的一個大型的車輛物流的車輛跑在高速公路跑在我們的道路上他萬一發生了事故是對車外"},{"start":417.233,"end":420.255,"text":"的確在物流貨運車他加保這個第三責任險因為過去可能在保險公司覺得他風險很高"},{"start":445.796,"end":464.958,"text":"那這個部分因為牽涉到這個金管會的職責我們來跟金管會討論一下要怎麼樣這個部長要出面啦因為我們辦公室不瞞您說啦也辦了一些協調會啦但是我是覺得不管因為疫情之後很多保險公司虧得很慘"},{"start":466.399,"end":494.548,"text":"所以他在精挑細選選一些他覺得會比較好的其實我們當然也可以理解可是當一堆沒有第三責任選擇不管物流的車輛大型的車輛在街上送貨營業的時候對於國人可能產生影響是非常非常大的那再來其實我們一般的私家車我們都是針對於人我們自然人就覺得我這個有沒有出事然後明年大概保險費有沒有多一點"},{"start":495.168,"end":521.662,"text":"他跟著人走可是在這法人的業者呢這些獲益的業者勒他是跟著車走車走啊也就是說前一個時機不太好他開了某某牌照的這個車然後第二年其實換一個全國優良駕駛他還是不保所以我是覺得現在業界齁我想這個局長你要稍微聽一下齁業界在推啦那乾脆齁乾脆職業駕駛他自己有責任險啦我覺得他也沒負責任啦"},{"start":522.062,"end":522.182,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":545.126,"end":545.326,"text":"主席"},{"start":561.75,"end":589.499,"text":"因為你在此同時你沒有推所謂的EIS來推動貨運、商業怎麼樣去管理教他們怎麼去管理你們怎麼樣去安全管理然後大家照著做有照著做有加分沒有照著做扣分然後未來可能牌照年度評鑑都有問題其中就有一條必須跑第三責任險你知道嗎你這是欺負人啊就我要評鑑你喔來你們每一台車都要給我保第三責任險他去跪著求業者"},{"start":590.899,"end":597.199,"text":"不給他保回來你再幫他扣分不是啦交通部你們跟財政部你們要溝通一下他要保"},{"start":598.226,"end":627.205,"text":"他要保你不讓我保然後你們這邊又評鑑問你們監理站就說抱歉你們自己去協調所以這個已經很久了那最後我也提醒一下我們那個觀光署這一個無保的車輛的風啊已經吹到租賃車了不要到時候國外這麼多自駕遊的我們這邊很多人也出國自駕遊簽保險現在大概有幾百台租賃車人家國外來這邊旅遊的"},{"start":628.586,"end":628.606,"text":"魯委員"}]}},{"id":"150820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150820","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c083e675c78264b46525a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a67372448dbf44c7f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"13:00:06 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13:06:18","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":372,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:06:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T13:00:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1398,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（13時）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長本日所報告的3項食品問題，蘇丹紅案、寶林茶室案、小林製藥的紅麴案，這3個案件，尤其是前2項都有一個共通點，請問部長是否可以分析出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：共通點，我不知道委員……","因為這3個案子都不太一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：這3個案件的共通點就是國外都曾經發生過，或者是國外正在發生的，請問部長，對於你們處理這3個案件的方式，您滿意嗎？你給自己評幾分？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，當然蘇丹紅這一個案子，如果後面回想起來，我們是不滿意，因為當時在邊境的管制上面有稍微變慢。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，不滿意，我覺得你也算是滿老實的。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們後面就有一些增進的計畫。"],["張委員嘉郡：在我看來真的是不及格，真的是非常的差強人意。第一，蘇丹紅的事件，國外早就多次爆發，早在2003年法國就已經發現辣椒粉裡面有摻蘇丹紅；2005年歐盟跟英國也相繼都發出警告，隨著歐盟發出警告，南非、中國大陸都相繼檢驗出其國內相關產品有蘇丹紅違法添加，但臺灣一直到今年、2024年才檢驗出違法添加，而且還是有民眾檢舉。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有！沒有！在邊境就有了。"],["張委員嘉郡：臺灣已經落後了將近20年。"],["薛部長瑞元：這在邊境……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是不是代表其實我們也默默地吃了20年，我們都沒有發現？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：衛福部是沒有網路嗎？還是都沒有update？將毒物拒絕於境外，不是關起門來說沒事，我不希望衛福部是一個鴕鳥的心態，說國外發生的事，我們只要不發生都當作不存在，剛剛大家都在問有關於寶林茶室案，就是米酵菌酸，你剛才說什麼？BKA？"],["薛部長瑞元：BKA。"],["張委員嘉郡：BKA已經多次在中國、在香港、在越南都有發生過，但衛福部卻連標準品都沒有。"],["薛部長瑞元：是在印尼，不是越南。"],["張委員嘉郡：印尼，好，衛福部連標準品都沒有，這是為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：在臺灣就沒有發生過啊！其實在中國也沒那麼多啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：你們一點都沒有要因應國際，我想衛福部應該要有一點國際的敏感度。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！這樣看到黑影就開槍，怎麼可能的事？"],["張委員嘉郡：你應該扮演食安的守護神，卻變成食安守護「省」，省錢，民眾的安全都被你衛福部「省」了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這種指控是不正確的。"],["張委員嘉郡：這次寶林事件發生之後，又急著要進口，結果才發現彰基醫院曾經進口過，你們才有辦法最快速的拿到這個標準品，請問部長是不是知道坊間有米酵菌酸的快速檢驗卡，可以快速知道這個食品是否有毒？你知道有這個東西嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，你不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：不知道，所以本席在這裡建議，是不是能夠趕快研究研議一下進口這個東西，然後納入這個考量？第三點……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會去查一下是否有這種東西。"],["張委員嘉郡：你去查一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是有沒有這個東西，我是相當存疑。"],["張委員嘉郡：我也是，我也聽說坊間有，我是有看到圖片，但我今天圖片沒有帶來，這個圖片……"],["薛部長瑞元：現在發生事情後，有很多都是這種假消息到處傳，我想委員要確認。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒事。我接下來繼續問第三點，就是小林製藥的紅麴案，3月22日小林製藥宣布回收紅麴相關製品，但衛福部一直晚了一週，到3月29日才告訴大家，請問一下部長，這是為什麼？為什麼我們會這麼慢？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，沒有晚啊！為什麼會晚？"],["張委員嘉郡：你們3月29日才發新聞稿耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：這3件食安事件……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以委員，你那個事實的理解，一定要清楚啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我告訴你，這是我在你衛福部網站上查的，你衛福部網站是3月29日才正式發新聞稿，所以這3件食安事件可以得知，衛福部不但是後知後覺，而且甚至是不知不覺。"],["薛部長瑞元：我覺得委員，你的資料的取得是有問題的。"],["張委員嘉郡：甚至要到國人的生命安全受害了才會有反應，這根本就是草菅人命、政策殺人。"],["薛部長瑞元：有問題的資料拿來做質詢，這個非常不妥。"],["張委員嘉郡：衛福部難辭其咎，部長，你在這裡跟我辯論有什麼意思？人命關天，都死了！"],["薛部長瑞元：到這裡不是要辯論，不是嗎？你質詢，我回答，不就是一種辯論嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：都死了，都已經死了，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是這樣講啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是你自己去查衛福部的……"],["薛部長瑞元：你事實要講清楚，要確認。"],["張委員嘉郡：我確認得非常清楚，3月29日。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們3月25日紅麴案就已經新聞稿出去了。"],["張委員嘉郡：3月25日也慢了3天了，為什麼你們沒有辦法及時呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們又不是日本。"],["張委員嘉郡：及時！是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：怎麼及時？"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是說你行政部門最基本應該要盡到的責任，行政機關不道歉就算了，還推諉說你們沒有辦法一一做到。"],["薛部長瑞元：我還要去北港朝天宮擲筊看看到底日本有什麼問題？"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你覺得這是我們國人想要看到負責任的食安部門官員所應該有的態度嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是負責任不是你講的那樣負責任。"],["張委員嘉郡：不要人民拿命來賠的時候，你們才有所動作，我覺得你們對國際相關案件的敏感度跟關注度必須要高一點，才能夠保障我們人民的生命安全好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們都一直在關心。"],["主席：我們謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢。接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.34284375,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.203468750000003,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.392843750000004,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.28909375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.352218750000006,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.81909375,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.89034375000001,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.61971875,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.32846875,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.15096875,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.74784375,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.87409375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.82721875,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.48034375,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.71346875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.67034375,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375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有這個東西但是沒有這個東西的話我是相當存疑的"},{"start":232.768,"end":246.696,"text":"我也是 我也聽說坊間有我看到圖片我今天圖片沒有帶來但是這個圖片呢現在發生事情有很多都是那種假消息在到處出現我第三點喔我接下來繼續問第三點就是小林製藥的這個紅麴案紅麴案就是就是3月22日小林製藥宣布回收紅麴相關製品但衛福部一直晚了"},{"start":258.923,"end":263.986,"text":"一週到3月29號才告訴大家請問一下部長這是為什麼?為什麼我們會這麼慢?你們3月29號才發新聞稿欸所以呢這三件食安事件我告訴你這是我在你衛福部網站上查的"},{"start":284.72,"end":303.714,"text":"衛福部網站是3月29才正式發新聞稿所以這三件食安事件可以得知衛福部不但是後知後覺而且甚至是不知不覺甚至要到國人的生命安全受害了才會有反應這根本就是草菅原幣政策殺人"},{"start":307.276,"end":314.141,"text":"衛福部難辭其咎部長你在這裡跟我辯論有什麼意思人命關天都死了都死了都已經都死了你知道嗎沒有我的意思是你自己去查你衛福部的你衛福部的"},{"start":324.508,"end":327.492,"text":"我確認非常清楚3月29號3月25也慢了三天了那也慢了三天了為什麼你們沒有辦法及時呢及時是不是我的意思是說你行政部門最基本應該要盡到的責任行政機關"},{"start":344.432,"end":349.935,"text":"不道歉就算了還推諉說你們沒有辦法一一做到部長你覺得這是我們國人想要看到負責任的食安部門官員所應該有的態度嗎人民不要拿命來賠的時候不要人民拿命來賠的時候你們才有所動作我覺得你們對國際相關的案件的敏感度跟關注度必須要高一點才能夠保障我們人民的生命安全好不好謝謝好我們謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03f0c8c8d039492e5ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a635e519e7a80233805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:53:13 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我不是答應上次跟委員說我們一個月以內會提資料給委員所以到現在都還沒有算出來嗎這個部分我們會把各個版本的部分的沒有這麼複雜啦真的沒有這麼複雜來 我秀給部長看"},{"start":216.793,"end":234.862,"text":"我以2022年現在我財稅資料可以收得到的我以2022年中央統籌分配款目前的版本跟相對而言馬英九的時候的政院版馬英九政院版我跟部長報告相對而言是比較保守"},{"start":235.902,"end":257.598,"text":"相對而言是比較保守所以比較保守就是從中央那邊要求過來的錢還比較少你如果看一下民進黨在野的時候修正馬英九的版本他所提出來的是什麼他所提出來的雖然是統籌分配管跟補助管全部合在一起但是他的規模到哪裡所得稅20%"},{"start":260.1,"end":285.542,"text":"多一個直轄市多10%貨物稅10%營業稅一樣剛剛有共識的部分100%跟菸酒稅81%相對而言馬英九的版本他們那個時候執政的版本相對而言所得稅稍微少一點6%但是因為他的補助款放債補助款所得稅還有10%好按照這個數字"},{"start":287.236,"end":315.128,"text":"我大概用2022年我們的財稅資料的數字來試算我就先不要用民進黨在野的時期理想性比較高的版本來試算我在馬英九執政的時候比較保守的來試算試算出來的結果差多少試算出來的結果就差3000億就差3000億這3000億對於地方政府在託分地方自治"},{"start":316.363,"end":337.58,"text":"有多麼高的重要性我今天利用這個質詢我開始針對垂直分配的問題請教財政部意見是給你們表達意見的機會因為我們不會等著你們拖我們不會等著你們拖不是等到你行政會有版本我們才要拖動修正不是這個樣子"},{"start":339.808,"end":368.336,"text":"現在大家都在擬條文準備要送到財政委員會來我利用質詢的時間請教部長意見是給你表達意見的機會但是你們似乎是不敢面對跳票的事實我每次請你表達意見全部都在打太極拳我現在先不處理水平分配的問題垂直分配的問題我把過去幾年的版本全部列出來共識很高啊"},{"start":369.625,"end":392.065,"text":"最起碼營業稅百分之百．貨物稅百分之八十一沒有人反對每一個版本都是這個樣子我們以這個版本來當作地板部長讚不讚成委員我想這個部分您看這麼多版本共識很好但是為什麼還是立法沒有通過也就是說其實是意見還是相當分歧"},{"start":392.645,"end":406.793,"text":"會繼續推給地方政府嗎?在隨時分配的時候還是推給地方政府嗎?你去問哪一個地方政府說我要擴大統籌分配管的規模會有地方政府反對?不可能啊!不可能啊!我是利用質詢的時間給你表達意見的機會啊!"},{"start":413.257,"end":439.872,"text":"我們如果真的要定的話我就按照民進黨當初這麼有理想性的版本挖這麼大塊 所得算20% 增加一個還要再多什麼 還要再多10%按照這個版本去定 現在的民進黨政府會接受嗎好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢 緊接著我們請楊瓊玉委員、姚瓊玉委員、姚瓊玉委員不在蔡議員、蔡玉菊、蔡議委員、蔡議委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在"}]}},{"id":"150818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c094632fc43a9540d2ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6daf5635acbaa0e4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:46:53 - 12:52:35","影片長度":"00:05:42","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、內政部、國家發展委員會就「如何積極推動金融業投注國內公共建設，並達成社宅百萬戶之政策目標」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月1日及3日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":342,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:52:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:46:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.99409375,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.456593750000003,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.79284375,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.74596875,"end":44.564093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.65221875,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.98034375,"end":59.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.09784375000001,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":112.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.43534375,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.19784375,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.67346875000001,"end":147.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.44659375,"end":163.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.81971875000002,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.04034375,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.97534375,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.85221875,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.01221875000005,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.34909375,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.49659375000005,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.76221875000005,"end":293.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.63909375000003,"end":294.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.06096875000003,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.22096875,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.05159375,"end":300.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.22034375000004,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.70534375,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.40346875,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.24159375,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.96284375000005,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.48596875000004,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.65471875000003,"end":329.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.98784375,"end":342.34034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.17,"end":0.554,"text":"有請黃主委"},{"start":6.837,"end":22.369,"text":"主委好,辛苦你了今天我還是繼續的要來詢問你有關這個壯世代金融行動方案上次在3月19號的財政個人總諮詢當中有請陳院長跟黃朱維當面有"},{"start":31.295,"end":56.232,"text":"這個責成金管會應要建立壯士代金融行動方案。主委是不是有這件事情?有那天是在總質詢的時候。是是,所以主委有答應嗎?不是,那天是院長,我沒有資格。院長有責成你嘛。應嘛,還不是得。應建立。是不是?會議記錄有這個字。對,有會議記錄。好,謝謝。"},{"start":60.975,"end":85.77,"text":"當時有提到應該比照綠色金融的政策來建立高齡社會的金融戰略主要提出兩個訴求是壯世代的金融行動方案還有上市櫃公司的高齡社會永續發展的路徑金管會在這幾年綠色金融整個的體系建立得非常完整所以經驗"},{"start":87.071,"end":87.211,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":117.193,"end":117.375,"text":"在一個"},{"start":121.697,"end":139.143,"text":"下一頁就是主委在上次我們有討論過這一個就是上面的主委院長都有看到我們的人口是邁向2040年明年台灣進入超高齡社會2040年的人口結構長這個樣子這一個年齡的中位數是52.4歲65歲以上的人占人口的30%但是我們現在"},{"start":148.607,"end":158.91,"text":"行政包括各部會都停留在1970年代用那樣的思維在定我們的高齡政策當時的年齡中位數是19.3歲65歲上的人占人口的2.9%"},{"start":163.852,"end":182.608,"text":"天翻地覆查家賊但是我真的發現我們所有的部門、部會都停留在1970年用那樣的思維在定整個國家這樣會被拖垮啦所以我現在努力的說服包括院長、部長大家都表示系各部會當中"},{"start":183.869,"end":209.19,"text":"都有這樣的覺悟但是問題沒有把這樣的傳達到下一個因為我知道這個主委這個回去以後有交代的確他們也有回應但是呢底下這個上禮拜我也到那個櫃買中心然後交易所然後我們金管會副主委主持出席他們說哎喲喲我們主委都有交代我們在做但是我發現他們所提的"},{"start":210.091,"end":230.589,"text":"都還是引法思維的做法所以事實上沒有真正的深入就像你要做綠色金融一樣高齡金融要像挖油井一樣挖挖挖就是你真的挖進去你就會有冒出來的很多的寶礦"},{"start":233.732,"end":250.625,"text":"所以這個經驗其實你非常的豐富的啦高齡金融的戰略壯世代金融行動方案為什麼要稱壯世代因為現在都叫銀髮族啦如果銀髮族就只是衛福部的事情大家都去找衛福部就好了但是如果到壯世代的話就是各部會"},{"start":251.905,"end":269.935,"text":"接下來下一頁提出對金管會的承諾是不是這個主委這有兩點成立高齡金融的專責小組整合金管會相關單位把這個責任扛起來這一點可不可以這個"},{"start":270.751,"end":284.346,"text":"有委員那個我們其實內部已經在彙整大家的意見那外部部分我記得那天院長說有的是牽涉到尤其是上市櫃公司永續跨部會尤其是衛福部勞動部這些單位這可能是不是要那時候好像說國發會會來彙整"},{"start":286.448,"end":286.568,"text":"有國發會來負責嗎?"},{"start":302.759,"end":328.028,"text":"第二點就是加強外部專業單位的溝通這一點我還是講就是說不能閉門遭拒後來我發現他們因為他沒有這種觀念底下沒有這種觀念所以他們做的都還是引法政策的東西所以可以請他們的專案小組多外部比如說跟壯賽來溝通都要溝通來定政策會比較適用這一定會跟外面溝通的好 謝謝"},{"start":330.049,"end":341.702,"text":"好謝謝吳春城委員質詢接著有號委員、有號委員、有號委員、有號委員、有號委員不在、正式行政委員、正式行政委員、正式行政委員、正式行政委員不在、徐清雲委員、徐清雲委員、徐清雲、徐清雲委員不在、蘇清廷委員、蘇清廷委員、蘇清廷"}]}},{"id":"150817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c037c7b2a8f5aff5eb25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6635ed267ed69460b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:53:35 - 13:00:03","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":388,"end_time":"2024-04-01T13:00:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:53:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1362,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時53分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長跟吳署長。"],["主席：好，請部長跟署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，想先請教你們，你們最近工作時數有沒有變比較長？因為食安事件的關係。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們一向都很長。"],["徐委員巧芯：一向都很長，那我們衛福部跟食藥署的公務人員晚上有沒有加班？比方說，我看你們3月26日晚上跟臺北市政府聯合稽查，好像都是在八、九點的時候。"],["薛部長瑞元：加班是經常的事。"],["徐委員巧芯：加班是經常的事？好，我們看一下這個照片，好不好？我也以為你們加班是很經常的事情，結果沒有想到我們的王必勝次長在3月29日晚上，原來他還有空到變形蟲爵士樂團去唱唱跳跳。地方稽查員苦不堪言，半年來發生五大食安議題，包含雞蛋、西布特羅、蘇丹紅跟這次的寶林案，在3月29日晚上，王必勝次長還在這邊跟大家拍大合照，在現場唱唱跳跳、談笑風生，我想問一下部長，您覺得這樣子社會觀感好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是個人的時間，這個沒有什麼好……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是社會觀感，我沒有說他有違法或違規。"],["薛部長瑞元：社會觀感就不應該問我。"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得社會觀感不歸衛福部長的事？我瞭解了。非公務的玩樂行程在下班之餘，如果不在乎社會觀感的話，那我也尊重，我尊重，儘量去玩，大家都去玩好了，但是我們也發現相關的圖片……"],["薛部長瑞元：不是大家都去玩，應該要做事的還是要做事。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是你看，真的對你們很不公平，你們都說你們經常性地加班，然後都很辛苦，我也知道我們衛福部、食藥署和地方的稽查員都很辛苦，所以看到這個畫面的時候我嚇一跳，王次長如果他自己覺得他下班之後想去哪就去哪，我尊重，但我們也發現相關的圖片已經刪掉一些，只剩下一張大合照隱藏在臉書裡面，我想如果他們覺得沒有問題的話應該就不需要刪文了。我要問一下……"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這種照片會漏出來的話，是很奇怪的。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，他們樂團自己po的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊。這個樂團自己po出來，只是做一個廣告。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。但我不是說他不能po照片，我是說這個時候還去，其實我知道很多人，包含地方政府的重要首長，現在也都因為因應這兩條人命的喪失，為顧及社會觀感，很多行程也都會考量社會觀感，但王必勝次長他對於社會觀感的認知如何，我完全尊重、我完全尊重！我只是提出來覺得這個很奇怪。"],["薛部長瑞元：追究這種事情也會很奇怪。"],["徐委員巧芯：我覺得很奇怪，你可以覺得不奇怪，這個我沒有意見。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我會覺得追究這種事情也是很奇怪。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，沒有，沒有追究，沒有追究。我只是很好奇說，在這個時間點上，我們的次長還跑去吃吃喝喝、玩玩樂樂，他對於社會觀感的理解可能跟我們一般民眾很不一樣，尤其是臺北市或新北市稽查人員最近的離職率都很高，因為大家的工作很辛苦。","最後我想問一下強制食品安全責任保險法的問題，剛才衛福部長也說到了，交代食藥署在非登不可系統當中加註產品責任險的到期時間，並且在到期一個月前跳出警示，提醒地方政府察覺，那你們說會在一個禮拜之內完成。"],["薛部長瑞元：一個月。"],["徐委員巧芯：一個月之內完成，可是這個系統目前就我的瞭解，它的後台資料只有衛福部有權限可以統一地去撈取，根據我剛剛去查核的結果，地方政府只能針對個別的廠商點選資料，沒有系統性的資料，比如說無法針對保險時間超過的部分一次性地撈，否則要透過向承辦人跟局長的雙重確認才行，請問這個問題後續會處理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以優化這一個系統的時候，就是必須要讓地方可以看得到。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以現在還不行嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是有部分啦，所以我們現在希望未來這一個系統優化之後，一定要讓地方能夠看得到，不然這一個沒有太大意義。"],["徐委員巧芯：這一點要特別強調，因為剛才我看到您說了之後，我開始去向各個地方政府去查核，發現他們都對您剛剛的說法非常憂心，如果系統沒有大規模改正的話只能單筆、單筆看，這無異於是要讓地方政府針對六萬家業者一家一家看所有項目有沒有問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會處理，不會要他們一家一家去check。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是因為現在是這樣嘛。","最後，我要講一下剛才臨時提案裡面強調的，包含我們今天的召集人也有講到所謂比照強制汽車責任險的部分，跟我們目前的現狀還是有一個落差，就是強制汽車責任保險法第十九條第二項寫得很清楚，保險業者要在四個工作天內就把承保的資料傳到主管機關和中央主管機關裡面，如果沒有做的話還會有罰則，但是目前是由業者自己去登打，那請問後續的查核要怎麼查？強制汽車責任險是由保險業者去登，現在這個保險是由業者去登，那你們有沒有思考過中間會不會有一個落差？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以來研議是不是讓保險公司來登，這當然可以來研議，不過因為食品的產品責任險範圍沒有像強制汽車責任險那麼大，所以公司家數是比較少的，以目前來講，如果沒有登我們就假設沒有投保，我們希望未來系統就直接跳出來，這個地方就可以馬上去查。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，麻煩你們再去研議好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢，接下來請張嘉郡委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.400343750000001,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.51346875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.30659375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.398468750000003,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.49534375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.09284375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.03784375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.42596875,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":86.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.78971875,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.96659375,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.85659375,"end":106.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.42409375000001,"end":104.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":108.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.45284375000001,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.95909375000002,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.35971875,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.05534375000002,"end":143.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.28284375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.08846875,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.44221875000002,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.73784375000002,"en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- 12:55:12","影片長度":"00:12:53","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":773,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:55:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:42:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時42分）主席好，請文化園區主任。"],["主席：我們有請文化園區主任。主委先休息一下。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我的用意是這樣。主任好。"],["曾主任智勇：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：很難得在這邊碰面，很開心。不過，針對文化園區，有一些我多年來的看見，我想問你一下。我時常聽聞園區聘請不到舞者，你的想法是怎麼樣？有關於常常會聘請不到表演的舞者或者招募不足的問題。"],["曾主任智勇：跟委員報告，是因為我們的地點在屏東，比起在都會區、中北部聘請舞者更難，是因為他們考慮到他們的生活，所以比較不容易。"],["盧委員縣一：是薪水的誘因不足嗎？"],["曾主任智勇：其實我們的舞者薪水也比一般的舞者薪水高。"],["盧委員縣一：是因為沒有前景嗎？"],["曾主任智勇：也不是沒有前景，實在是因為地點在屏東。"],["盧委員縣一：你認為他們的前景在哪裡？"],["曾主任智勇：關於他們的前景，我跟委員報告，我們的舞者表演的是臺灣唯一的原住民傳統舞蹈。"],["盧委員縣一：是，我認同。有沒有可能把文化園區的名稱改成國家級的名稱呢？現在的名稱似乎沿襲太久了，感受不到它是一個國家級的場域。"],["曾主任智勇：對，這個也是我們一直在努力的方向，希望這個樂舞團隊……"],["盧委員縣一：所以在吸引年輕人的部分，可能就是因為這個名稱，或者是因為覺得看不到願景，所以招募不足。常常在需要很多人表演的時候只能聘請工讀生，然而工讀生的訓練也不足，所以造成應該有的表演呈現就不足，對不對？"],["曾主任智勇：對，謝謝委員指教。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望，如果能把策展人也列為以後的正式公務人員，或者是將比較資深的舞者變成正式的專門技術人員，當任用變成正式員額的時候，會吸引更多人加入這樣的行列，對不對？"],["曾主任智勇：我們正在努力讓樂舞團隊變成國家級的樂舞團隊。"],["盧委員縣一：多久之內可以達到目標？"],["曾主任智勇：我們已經在努力。"],["盧委員縣一：希望在你留任的時候、在你的任內，能夠完成，可以嗎？"],["曾主任智勇：我也希望是在這個時候就把它推出去，希望整個樂舞團隊變成一個國家級的樂舞團隊，讓整個組織能有所改變。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望在全臺的大學或是高中能夠看到你們招募的消息，因為我其實很少看到你們在招募，不過卻常常聽到招募不足的消息。"],["曾主任智勇：跟委員報告，我們都有到各個大專院校去，大仁科技大學、東華大學、輔仁大學、甚至內埔農工、來義高中等多間校所都有這樣的招募動作。"],["盧委員縣一：那有沒有給他們房租的補貼？"],["曾主任智勇：沒有房租的補貼。"],["盧委員縣一：所以房租補貼也是一個誘因。第二個，如果他們到各地去表演的時候，有沒有所謂可以申請出差或者類似的加給？"],["曾主任智勇：因為這個是國家級的團隊，也是政府培養的團隊，如果是公益的表演，當然就是住宿……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望主任能夠多多為他們生活方面著想，才可以聘用到足夠的人數，好不好？"],["曾主任智勇：我跟委員報告，過去，在我還沒有去園區以前，這些團隊的舞者都是在領基本工資，我們要謝謝夷將主委，他來了之後，現在的團演基本工資至少都是3萬5,000元以上，甚至於比較優秀的舞者都已經得到了工資5萬元的機會。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝你們的努力，我們希望朝更好的方向前進，好不好？"],["曾主任智勇：謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。接下來我要問的是關於臺東平地原住民的問題。"],["主席：所以是請主委嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：好，可以。"],["主席：請夷將主委。"],["盧委員縣一：主委好。我常常會看到居住在臺東大武、大鳥這些地區的排灣族，可是身分卻是平地原住民，這麼多年來，有沒有想過辦法克服這個問題？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個要修改相關的法令才有可能。"],["盧委員縣一：會很困難嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我請處長跟你說明，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：好。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：這個部分跟原住民身分法的整個法制有關，在民國35年先認定了山地原住民，然後到民國45年開始認定平地原住民。"],["盧委員縣一：是，有沒有做過努力？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：這個部分，過去曾經在我們的原住民身分法裡面有規定過。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，請問當地的人有沒有跟你們訴求過他們想要改變？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：有訴求過。"],["盧委員縣一：是，有沒有做過努力？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們曾經有修過身分法。"],["盧委員縣一：遇到了什麼困難？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：現在就是涉及到山地原住民跟平地原住民之間，當時是以30個山地鄉跟30個山地鄉以外來做區分。"],["盧委員縣一：如果他們確實還是有這份需求，而且人數是好幾千人或甚至上萬人，是不是應該短期之內把問題解決？不然永遠都會有明明是排灣族卻不能投山地原住民立委這樣的一個問題呈現。明明是親戚，他卻跟我不同的身分，不是很奇怪嗎？是不是？想辦法解決，不然就是我們有時間來聊聊天。第二個就是關於我們恆春有一個社頂社區，明明是排灣族但是卻沒有原住民的身分，有沒有人提過這個問題？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：有"],["盧委員縣一：也是一樣嗎？也是卡在那個同樣的問題上面嗎？所以就一併解決，可以嗎？還有這次新竹市山原跟平原議員席次的問題，雖然只有一席是平地原住民的議員，不過居住在新竹市的山地原住民非常多，他們有那樣的身分，可是卻沒有辦法投票。雖然住在新竹市可以有投票權，可是沒有那樣的議員可以投，也就是說，沒有辦法行使公民權，有沒有想過這個問題怎麼解決？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個要從地制法包括選罷法裡面進行解決。"],["盧委員縣一：因為新竹市認為他們覺得很需要這一席。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就是因為整個選制的部分，分成山地原住民跟平地原住民。"],["盧委員縣一：有辦法短期之內解決嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我覺得整體修法才是可行的方法。"],["盧委員縣一：那我們就努力，好不好？如果你繼續留任的話，我們一起努力。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來是就醫補助的問題。就醫補助，多年來到現在都沒有改善過，是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：來，處長。"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，就醫補助，現在按照法律規定是由衛福部……"],["盧委員縣一：因為我們一直希望能夠達成就醫平權，都會的人是住在醫院旁邊，坐捷運就可以去看病了，我們卻是要跋山涉水。就醫補助的部分，我希望能夠逐年的調升，不需每次都要提案，可以做個比例……"],["羅處長赫踛：目前現在主管法規是在衛福部，我們會再跟衛福部反映。"],["盧委員縣一：能不能做個浮動的比例？在補助的時候不需要每年都必須提出申請，我們生活到哪個水準應該自動就要調高啊！對不對？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們原住民要去看病的時候常常都必須請假，家人也要請假帶他去看病，還要包車、還要住在那裡，你覺得我們花的成本是多少？有沒有人在計算？非常的辛苦，好不好？有人跟我說，他們需要洗腎的地方，地方政府就會說沒有那樣的預算，可是他們卻可以買一支兩億元的針進來？我們原住民的命就不是命嗎？需要洗腎的時候，明明醫療院所可以設置，也沒有需要花很多錢，可是我們為什麼從來都不努力去盤點各個偏遠地區需要洗腎的人口是多少？就算是三個人，應該也要設一個洗腎室啊！不是嗎？如果遇到颱風，還必須要到都會區才能洗腎！可以盤點嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：委員，我們從衛生所出來，應該都了解目前的情況。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！我希望能夠全省盤點特偏地區的洗腎需求，即使只有一個人洗腎也要做，現在都一針一億元都可以買進來了！對不對？政府不是沒有錢，是我們不夠努力去盤點出人民的需求、幫他們想辦法，否則洗腎永遠都需要兩個小時的時間來回，路上還可能會發生事情，對不對？好不好？這是洗腎的部分。","上次談交通平權，我有跟主委講過，明明山上的路很小，可是使用的車就那麼大，結果我講了沒過多久，桃源區六龜的公車就掉到水溝裡面，我的意思就是，常常去偏遠地區去看，都會區的人不會想到路很小，還是開那麼大的巴士，在199縣道要會車的時候都快到山坡上面了！我在講的是牡丹那邊。假日的時候又有重機，又有那麼大型的遊覽車，一般在那邊生活的人過得非常不安全。所以你要考量這個地區，應該是要限縮巴士的大小，現在也有小巴士啊！好不好？不然每次看到都是險象環生，希望大家能夠注意到這點。","還有，都會地區每一區都有運動中心，可是，你有想過烏來區有嗎？信義鄉還有仁愛鄉有嗎？都沒有啊！都會到處都可見健身房，有那麼多的運動中心，我們鄉下卻連走路的地方都沒有，是不是要規劃所謂的健康設施或是運動設施？我們多努力，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["盧委員縣一：因為健康都是從運動累積來的，所以也是需要相對的配套措施，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員那麼關心原民的健康。"],["盧委員縣一：時間到了嗎？是嗎？再兩個問題就好了，好不好？關於我們國土計畫，我很高興有參加3月26號在新竹辦的活動，4月2號及4月3號，我可能沒有時間。在這邊問一下處長，上次有很多收穫，我還是希望讓全國原住民知道我們也很關心這個問題，好不好？問題就是，所謂的原鄉土地上未辦保存登記的建物，按現行建管法令如何取得建造以及使用執照？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，按照目前的規定，現存土地如果在77年以前即存在，是可以輔導取得合法使用證明的資格，如果在77年以後始存在則必須要補辦建造。"],["盧委員縣一：那費用呢？"],["劉處長維哲：這部分包括了補辦建造要請建築師重新畫建築設計書圖送審。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，我們有跟原住民的鄉親說費用大概是多少嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：我們過去曾經輔導新竹的一個案例，一戶是六萬元。"],["盧委員縣一：你覺得大部分的人都可以支付得了嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：的確有些人家境不好。"],["盧委員縣一：你有沒有想辦法？要怎麼解決？"],["劉處長維哲：過去是我們用專案示範的案例來做處理，我們會再研開適當的財源。"],["盧委員縣一：請納入你們的考量重點，好不好？因為接下來有非常多的人需要這方面幫助。最後一個問題就是落日條款，希望在原住民土地使用規則裡，就是在辦理建物申請的時候，不要有落日條款，好不好？可以嗎？請解釋一下。"],["杜張處長梅莊：這個我們會持續跟國土署協商。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我相信這麼多的案件……"],["杜張處長梅莊：原則上我們是朝這個方向努力。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝處長。"],["主席：非常謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢。在這邊也說明一下，對於都會區山地原住民的參政權，其實我們在地制法裡面也要修訂，召委也會排；另外，國土取得建照的部分，召委也會排，包括原民會、內政部，一起來討論關於未來是不是用於建照的取得部分，手續能夠簡便，甚至也希望我們的政府部門能夠補助一些金額，好嗎？也提供給盧縣一委員，我們一起來參考，謝謝。","繼續我們請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.22409375,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.015968750000003,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.10784375,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23.38596875,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25.76534375,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.60909375,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27.098468750000002,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":28.22909375,"end":30.422843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":30.60846875,"end":34.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":35.36721875,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.611593750000004,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":43.399718750000005,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":44.59784375,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":45.45846875,"end":47.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.27659375,"end":48.479093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.479093750000004,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.49596875,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.12034375,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":52.579718750000005,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":52.86659375,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.900343750000005,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.03534375,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.532843750000005,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.806593750000005,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":60.32534375,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.97471875,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.36159375,"end":75.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":75.74909375,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.90909375000001,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.04409375,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.12846875000001,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.95096875,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.25846875,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":85.51971875000001,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.31284375,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.56596875000001,"end":86.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.58284375000001,"end":98.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.95221875,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.12034375,"end":118.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.37534375000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.03346875000001,"end":135.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":135.92534375,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.97596875000002,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":142.54034375,"end":145.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.52721875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.17659375000002,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.10846875000001,"end":155.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":155.77034375000002,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.93909375,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":155.95596875,"end":156.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":162.36846875,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":178.60221875000002,"end":178.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.61909375000002,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":184.15409375000002,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":187.00596875000002,"end":192.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":193.75596875000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":205.07909375000003,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":212.65596875,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":221.70096875000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.96534375000002,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":238.87971875000002,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":247.04721875,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":248.02596875,"end":256.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.64159375000003,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":256.19346875,"end":261.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.75346875,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.96846875,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":265.00221875,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.60971875,"end":266.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26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如果說他們確實還是有這份需求的話而且是人數好幾千甚至上萬的話是不是應該短期之內把它解決"},{"start":340.67,"end":364.259,"text":"你明明是排完組就不能投3D原住民立委這樣一個問題呈現明明是親戚因為他跟我不同的身份不是很奇怪嗎是不是想辦法解決如果不然就我們有時間來聊聊天第二個就是關於我們恆春有一個社頂社區恆春社頂社區他明明是排完組可是他卻沒有原住民的身份有沒有人提過這個問題"},{"start":367.635,"end":393.316,"text":"有有是齁也是一樣嗎也是卡在那個同樣的問題上面嗎所以他們就一併解決可以嗎好可以了齁那還有這次新竹市的一個山原跟平原的一個議員的席次的問題也就是說他雖然只有一席是平地原住民的議員不過他們新竹市的居住在新竹市的山地原住民非常多他們有那樣的身份可是沒有辦法投票"},{"start":394.793,"end":407.182,"text":"也就是說他雖然住在新竹市他可以有投票權可是他沒有那樣的一個議員他可以投也就是說他沒有辦法行使他的公民權有沒有想過這個問題怎麼解決"},{"start":409.514,"end":412.955,"text":"新竹市認為他們覺得很需要這一席有辦法短期內解決嗎"},{"start":427.061,"end":455.422,"text":"我覺得整體修法是才是可行的方法那我們就努力好不好如果你繼續留任的話我們一起努力好不好謝謝委員我要講的是接下來是就醫補助的問題就醫補助像多年來到現在沒有改善過文明是不是就醫補助處長好那跟委員報告一下那就醫補助現在按照法律規定是由因為我們一直希望能夠說就醫平權因為我們"},{"start":456.533,"end":483.4,"text":"我們都會的人他是住在醫院旁邊做捷運就可以去看病了我們是要拔山涉水啊就於補助的部分我希望能夠逐年的調升好嗎不要每次都要提案這樣子他可以做個比例嗎目前現在主管法規涉案是在衛福部那我可以再跟衛福部反映那做個浮動的一個就是說你在補助的時候不要每年都要提出申請我們生活到哪一個水準的時候他應該自動就要調高啊對不對"},{"start":484.6,"end":504.941,"text":"常常原住民要去看病的時候他還要請假家人要請假帶他去看病還要包車還要住在那裡那你覺得那個我們花的成本是多少也沒有人在計算非常的辛苦好不好然後有人跟我說他們需要洗身的地方可是地方政府就會說我們沒有那樣的預算可是他們可以確定一支兩億的針進來"},{"start":506.883,"end":523.603,"text":"那我們原住民的命就不是命嗎那需要洗腎的時候那些他們明明這個醫療院所是可以設置也沒有說很多錢那可是我們為什麼從來都不努力去盤點各個培養地區需要洗腎的人口是多少就算是三個人應該也要設一個洗腎室啊不是嗎"},{"start":524.224,"end":539.824,"text":"如果說你遇到颱風他還要到多會區洗腎欸好不好可以盤點嗎我希望能夠全省盤點特偏地區的一個洗腎的需求一個人洗腎也要給他做現在這一億的都可以買進來了對不對"},{"start":542.867,"end":560.359,"text":"政府不是沒有錢是我們不夠努力去盤點出來他們的需求幫他們想辦法不要以許勝擁有到擁有到兩個小時的時間來回然後這路上還會發生事情對不對好不好這是許勝的部分然後上次在交通貧窮有講到跟主委講過那個"},{"start":561.94,"end":589.29,"text":"明明山上的路很小可是他們用的車就那麼大所以我講我沒有多久那個桃園去的那個公車就掉到水溝裡面溜龜我的意思就是說你常常去偏遠地區去看可是都會去的人他不會去想說你的路很小還是可以那麼大的巴士然後你在199縣道你要匯車的時候你都快到快到那個山坡上面了就是那個我再講是牡丹那邊對不對你每次假日的時候又有重機又有那麼大型的遊覽車然後"},{"start":590.811,"end":609.907,"text":"一般人在那邊生活的人非常不安全所以你要考慮你這個地區你應該是限縮他那個巴士的那個大小因為現在也有小巴士啊好不好不然每次看到都是選項環生大家能夠注意到這個還有都會地區都會有每一區的運動中心可是你有想過烏來區有嗎"},{"start":612.472,"end":633.29,"text":"新義區有嗎?我所謂的新義鄉還有仁愛鄉有嗎?都沒有啊然後我們這邊是到處可見健身房然後國家還幫他們弄個運動中心我們鄉下連走路的地方都沒有是不是要規劃一個所謂的健康的設施或者運動的設施我們多努力好不好?好"},{"start":634.531,"end":657.098,"text":"因為健康都是很多都是從運動累積來的所以這個也是要相對的一個配套可以嗎好謝謝委員那麼關心嚴敏的健康的請時間到了嗎是嗎再兩個問題就好了好不好那個我們國土因為我有很高興參加3月26號在新竹辦的4月2號4月3號可能沒有時間然後這邊問一下處長"},{"start":659.38,"end":674.478,"text":"上次有很多收穫我還是希望跟全國原住民知道說我們也很關心這個問題好不好就是問題就是所謂的原鄉土地尚未辦保存登記的建物按現行建管法令如何取得建造實用製造的問題"},{"start":679.651,"end":688.598,"text":"報告委員按照目前的規定的話就是現成土地呢如果在77年以前它存在的話呢是可以輔導取得合法使用證明那這7年以後的話呢必須要補辦建造補辦嘛那費用呢"},{"start":695.615,"end":723.162,"text":"我們這費用部分的話它包括了不辦建造的話包括要請建築師重新畫那個建築的設計設計書圖我知道那有跟原住民的鄉親說費用大概多少嗎我們過去曾經過去曾經輔導新竹一個案例它一個一戶是6萬塊6萬塊對你覺得大部分的人都可以支付得了嗎的確有些家境不好的確那你會想辦法要怎麼解決"},{"start":724.846,"end":742.432,"text":"呃這部分我們有有過去曾經我們會放在這呃過去是我們用專案特那示範的案例來做處理那我們再研究這個也跟那個納入你們的考量重點好不好因為接下來是非常多的人需要做這方面的"},{"start":744.034,"end":755.01,"text":"最後一個問題就是我們的落入條款希望在原住民土地使用規則在那個裡面就是說你在辦理建物申請的時候不要有落入條款好不好"},{"start":755.816,"end":756.737,"text":"對於都會區3D原住民的參政權其實我們在地質法"}]}},{"id":"150815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0ceafd1f8a9042c15f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6b19a1a8646fcee675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:33:38 - 12:42:11","影片長度":"00:08:33","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":513,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:42:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:33:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好，今天前面有很多委員都關心一件事情，拿納稅人的錢在搞個人的宣傳，有一些委員是質疑，有一些民進黨的委員是上來護航，說是前例。我們從頭開始看，過去馬政府在辦活動的時候，很多活動刻意以「九、馬、久」這些關鍵字命名，大拍總統馬屁。當時的賴清德在內政委員會提的案子是什麼？刪預算5,000萬元，當時賴清德怎麼說的？下面的人要逢迎拍馬，你可以當面喝斥，上面的人不知道事情的真相，等到出事捅出大窟窿，政府就會出狀況，主委贊不贊成賴準總統的態度？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個案子我不是很了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子你不是很了解？他講的是一個態度的問題啊！拿納稅人的公帑搞個人宣傳、拍馬屁，這是一個基本態度的問題，您贊不贊成？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，這個案子我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那來看一下你清楚的是什麼案子，花145萬元的公帑，出你個人的成果專刊，這是在拍誰的馬屁？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們沒有拍任何人的馬屁。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下品項名稱，夷將．拔路兒主任委員成果專刊勞務採購案，今年預算執行了，是嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["黃委員國昌：在執行今年的預算？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是去年的吧！"],["黃委員國昌：這個是去年還是今年的？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：啊！今年的。"],["黃委員國昌：是哪一年的預算都搞混啊！相關的專刊出太多了嘛！去年搞一本原民會八年施政成果專刊，這我沒意見，你把原民會八年做了什麼跟人民報告，這個我贊成，這個我沒有意見啊！去年出了一本八年施政成果專刊，結果今年要再出一本夷將．拔路兒主任委員成果專刊，主委跟大家說明一下，出這個專刊的必要性到底在哪裡啊？在宣傳原民會，還是在宣傳你個人啊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：當然不是我個人啊！"],["黃委員國昌：上面不是掛你的名字嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，我們還沒有出版，你還沒有看到內容，這個只是採購案的名稱而已。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你連採購案的名稱就這樣定囉！所以這個採購案的名稱是隨便亂取的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒有隨便啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：因為第一任的主委……"],["黃委員國昌：哪一個標案……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：第一任的主委都有這個標案……"],["黃委員國昌：哪一個標案是用主任委員自己名字的成果專刊，拍馬屁拍成這樣喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：前主委都已經出版過了，委員我跟你報告，包括孫大川委員……"],["黃委員國昌：所以前面的人怎麼幹，你就可以怎麼幹嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有怎麼幹啊！那是我們原民會例年的慣例啊！"],["黃委員國昌：來，你去年執行今年的預算嘛！我翻了這本預算書，我翻了老半天，我看不出來啊！這本預算書哪裡寫著要出你的專刊啊？沒有啊！請教主委，這一本你的專刊的預算，是編在哪一個項目下？請說明。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是編在我們的業務費裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：在哪一項？我把預算書給你，折好以後請拿來給我看。現在要卸任的官員，除了原民會以外，有哪一位其他的主委還是部長，有出這個成果專刊的？請教主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：別的部會我沒有辦法幫他們說明。"],["黃委員國昌：但是你作為原民會的主委，你覺得有必要出這個專刊是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們這個專刊從第一任主委到現在歷任都有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你是循例辦理而已嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會後可以給委員做參考……"],["黃委員國昌：不用啊，我有看到嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我才拿馬政府那個時候賴清德的批評給你聽嘛！如果什麼事情，是前面的人要怎麼幹，我就要怎麼幹，這個陋習必須要有停止的一天！這就是我的態度。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：尊重委員的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的預算編出來了，編在哪裡？編在哪裡？寫要出你的專刊，指出來給大家看嘛！如果去年上一屆的國會在審預算的時候，知道要出你的專刊，預算還放行，那是上屆國會的錯。但我翻了半天，我就是找不到，你那個預算到底編在哪裡？讓國會的預算審查形同具文，空洞的不得了！項目寫這麼大，錢過了以後，愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，可以這樣喔？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，這是我們二十七年來原民會一貫的業務作業，我們都是依法來辦理的。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說明一次啦！原民會作為一個機關，要做施政成果報告我沒意見，所以我負責任的把你們的標案全部都列出來了，但是除了原民會的施政成果報告，還要搞主委個人的宣傳。我老實講啦！這筆錢納稅人不會支持，而且最嚴重的問題在哪裡？大家在審預算的時候根本就不知道你要搞這個東西嘛！讓國會的監督形同具文嘛！項目編得很粗，通過了以後，愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，可以這樣喔？可以這樣嗎？","找到了沒有？預算書都提供給你們了，到底編在哪一個項下？我非常好奇啊！推動原住民族政策法規、制度、處理族群關係及本會研考業務之規劃執行所需的經費，我看不出來耶！這個項下是要推動原住民族的政策法規、制度、處理族群關係，與你個人的專刊有什麼關係啊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員你還沒有看到我的專刊內容，等我們出版時我會提供給你參考。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！當預算過的名目跟你實際上做的事情不一樣的時候，我們就要追究責任。","今天這一個標案的名稱是你們自己公告的喔！不是我公告的喔！也不是其他立委公告的喔！標案的名稱就大剌剌的說是夷將主委的成果專刊啊！賴清德當初在野的時候，痛批馬政府的馬屁文化，結果民進黨執政八年改了什麼？一模一樣嘛！拿前人當擋箭牌嘛！如果可以拿前人當擋箭牌的話，賴清德當初的批判豈不成為笑話了？"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢，請原民會以後真的要注意這個部分，好嗎？謝謝。","請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","繼續請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.504718750000002,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.52159375,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.550968750000003,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":27.840968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.236593750000004,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.26096875,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.049718750000004,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.41221875,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.66096875,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.221593750000004,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.16221875,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.39784375,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.87846875,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.17784375,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.118468750000005,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.92784375000001,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.55534375,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.98096875,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.26659375,"end":87.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.08034375000001,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.28221875000001,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.86409375000001,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.73596875000001,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.98409375000001,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.46784375000001,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.21034375,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.28596875000001,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.66534375,"end":127.43721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.67346875000001,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.39471875,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.76534375,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.83659375000002,"end":141.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.38784375,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.05846875,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.90096875,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.33909375000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.40971875000002,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.08846875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.65346875,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.24409375000002,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.52221875,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.31471875000003,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.53409375,"end":183.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.93034375000002,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.74721875,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.41721875000002,"end":201.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.48471875,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":206.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.57659375,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.53409375,"end":210.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.08659375000002,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.84159375000002,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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那來看一下你清楚的是什麼案子阿花145萬的公帑出你個人的成果專刊這是在拍誰的馬屁阿我們沒有拍任何人的馬屁來看一下品項名稱移將拔綠兒主任委員成果專刊勞務採購案今年預算執行的是嗎對在執行今年的預算不是去年的吧"},{"start":125.894,"end":144.563,"text":"這個是去年還是今年的是哪一年的預算都搞混啊相關的專刊出太多了嘛去年搞一本原民會八年施政成果專刊這我沒意見啊你把原民會八年做了什麼跟人民報告這個我贊成"},{"start":146.651,"end":160.248,"text":"這個我沒有意見去年出了一本八年施政成果專刊結果今年要再出一本一將八路的主任委員成果專刊主委你跟大家說明一下出這個專刊的必要性到底在哪裡"},{"start":161.383,"end":181.243,"text":"在宣傳原名還是在宣傳你個人當然不是我個人那上面不是掛你的名字嗎委員我們還沒有出版你還沒有看到內容這個只是採購案的名稱而已對啊你連採購案的名稱就這樣定喔所以這個採購案的名稱是隨便亂取的嗎沒有隨便啊對啊"},{"start":182.384,"end":204.118,"text":"第一任的主委哪一個標案第一任的主委哪一個標案是用主任委員自己的名字的成果專刊拍馬屁拍成這樣喔前主委都已經出訪過了委員我給你報告包括孫道昌委員所以前面的人怎麼幹你就可以怎麼幹嗎我們要怎麼幹啊那是我們原民會第一年的慣例啊來你去年"},{"start":205.587,"end":223.012,"text":"執行今年的預算嘛我翻了這本預算書啊我翻了老半天啊我看不出來啊這本預算書哪裡寫著要出你的專刊啊沒有啊來請教主委這一本你的專刊的預算是編在哪一個項目上編在哪一個項目下請說明"},{"start":232.432,"end":236.313,"text":"在哪一項來我預算書給你折好以後請拿來給我看現在卸任的官員除了原民會以外有哪一位其他的主委還是部長有出這個成果專刊的來請教主委"},{"start":265.229,"end":277.455,"text":"北斗部會我沒有辦法幫他們來說明但是你作為原民會的主委你覺得有必要出這個專刊是不是我們這個專刊從第一任主委到現在都第一任都有"},{"start":279.002,"end":300.577,"text":"所以你是巡禮辦理而已嗎?不用啊!我會有看到嘛!對嘛!所以我才拿馬政府那個時候賴清德的批評給你聽嘛!你如果什麼事情是前面的人要怎麼幹我就要怎麼幹!這一個漏期必須要有停止的一天這就是我的態度準準委的態度"},{"start":303.666,"end":326.881,"text":"你們的預算編出來了編在哪裡編在哪裡寫要出你的專刊指出來給大家看嘛如果去年上屆的國會在審預算的時候資本要出你的專刊預算還放行那是上屆國會的錯但我翻了半天我就是找不到你那個預算到底編在哪裡"},{"start":330.768,"end":358.934,"text":"讓國會的預算審查形同句文空洞的不得了項目寫這麼大錢過了以後愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞可以這樣喔委員這是我們27年來原民會一貫的業務作業我們都是依法來辦理的我再說明一次啦原民會作為一個機關要做施政成果報告我沒意見所以我負責任的把你的標案我全部都列出來了嘛"},{"start":359.841,"end":387.56,"text":"但除了原民會的施政成果報告還要搞主委個人的宣傳我老實講啦這筆錢納稅人不會支持納稅人不會支持但現在最嚴重的問題在哪裡大家在審預算的時候根本就不知道你要搞這個東西嘛讓國會的監督形同巨文嘛項目編得很粗"},{"start":389.363,"end":393.185,"text":"過了以後愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞可以這樣喔可以這樣嗎找到了沒有我預算書都提供給你們了到底是編在哪一個向下我非常好奇阿"},{"start":418.584,"end":441.38,"text":"推動原住民族政策法規制度處理族群關係及本會研考業務之規劃執行所需的經費我看不出來這個上下是要推動原住民族政策法規制度處理關係"},{"start":443.935,"end":462.576,"text":"這個跟你個人的專刊有什麼意思有什麼關係啊委員你還沒有看到我的專刊內容所以等我們出訪我會提供你參考我這樣講好了啦當預算過的名目跟你實際上面做的事情不一樣的時候我們就要追究責任"},{"start":463.379,"end":487.962,"text":"我們就要追究責任今天這個標案的名稱是你們自己公告的不是我公告的也不是其他的立委公告的標案的名稱就大剌剌的就講說是一將主委的成果專刊賴清德當初在野的時候痛批馬政府的馬屁文化"},{"start":489.438,"end":501.187,"text":"結果民進黨執政8年改了什麼一模一樣嘛拿錢人當黨鍵牌嘛如果可以拿錢人當黨鍵牌的話賴清德當初的批判豈不成為笑話了"}]}},{"id":"150814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03123cbbc3825521f25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a603e26e77da1de7db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:47:36 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12:53:30","影片長度":"00:05:54","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":354,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:53:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:47:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1317,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時47分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。先請教一下，這一次引起寶林茶室中毒事件的物質，根據目前的調查有可能是米酵菌酸。部長，可不可以先正名一下，這個米酵菌酸跟米有沒有關係？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上沒有太大的關係。"],["李委員坤城：沒有關係嘛，對不對？可是因為是講米酵菌酸，所以很多民眾現在對於米製品，不管是粿仔、米苔目、米粉等米製品，可能都會有一些心生恐懼，我想從今天開始之後，關於米酵菌酸可不可以正名一下，你要用音譯也好，或者是有些學者說這個是跟椰子有相關的，應該叫椰酵菌酸，我們可不可以今天開始用其他的名稱？至少用音譯的方式來處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們先讓食藥署去找專家來討論，就是中文要怎麼翻譯，我們在這裡開始就叫做BKA，好不好？對啊，它的簡稱叫BKA啊。"],["李委員坤城：BKA？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，BKA。"],["李委員坤城：BKA，好。"],["薛部長瑞元：還是說，叫BA也沒關係。"],["李委員坤城：好，至少不要一直重複講米酵菌酸，不然這樣大家對這個名稱會有一點疑慮。"],["薛部長瑞元：那個名字我老是記不起來。"],["李委員坤城：那你知道這個名稱是從哪裡來的？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個翻譯是從中國大陸來的。"],["李委員坤城：從中國來的。因為中國之前有類似這個案子的案例。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我第二個要問的就是，其實中國有類似的案子，但是我們臺灣對這個好像一無所知。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是第一次。"],["李委員坤城：對。我是認為說，不管是來自中國還是鄰近的亞洲國家，我們應該都對這一種毒素有認知，這也不算新型態的中毒案件，其實過去在中國或印尼都有案例，我是建議你們趕快找學者專家，把鄰近亞洲國家有的中毒案例而在臺灣沒有發生過的先做一個整理，然後至少有一個資訊的平台，你們先有這個資訊平台，知道這些新型態的細菌、病毒需要什麼樣的標準品來供檢驗之用。你說第一次遇到，好像我們沒有類似的標準品來供作檢驗，我上禮拜問你，你還說要兩個禮拜，還好後來彰化基督教醫院還有標準品。所以我要問的第二個問題是，可不可以做個整理、有一個資訊的平台，把鄰近的亞洲國家，不一定是指中國，把相關的中毒案件做個整理，然後該需要準備什麼標準品也做個整理，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以來做。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有一個時間？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為要整理要看很多文獻，這個部分的話，恐怕也不是食藥署的同仁可以負荷的，這種東西的話一定要請學界來幫忙。"],["李委員坤城：至少從現在開始要做，不要每次遇到一個新的，就說我們臺灣都沒有準備，臺灣好像都被保護得很好，但是鄰近國家如果有類似的病毒或細菌，我們要預防，不管是中國或是其他的國家。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會委託學界來做這方面的一些servey。"],["李委員坤城：至少建立一個平台起來。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。但是這個還是需要比較長一點的時間。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，至少現在開始去做。需要哪些標準品，不夠的，就趕快要去買，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：會，我們會。"],["李委員坤城：我第三個要請教的問題就是，現在這個案子的食材檢體有35件，我聽王次長講都驗不出來、都沒有驗出來。驗不出來，但上一批粿條大家又吃下去了，那你最後怎麼證明就是上一批粿條出問題？我是擔心，不要像臺中那一塊天選之肉，查、查、查、查半天，最後就說只有那一塊肉有問題，事情到底是怎麼發生的？好像最後也是不了了之。這件案子我是不希望最後不了了之，因為有牽涉到人命。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一個案子最後偵查的結果會是什麼樣子，我們目前也還沒有辦法先下定論，不過還是會逐漸縮小範圍。"],["李委員坤城：對啊。因為現在就是認定問題在那個粿條嘛，現在我聽王次長說，有相關的條件，現在就是要去培養，看有沒有那個細菌出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是從這個廚師在保存到烹調的過程當中，到底是什麼樣的因素造成可以產生BA出來，這個事情就是現在在調查的重點，但並不一定最後會有一個確定的答案，因為已經事過境遷了。"],["李委員坤城：最快結果哪時候會知道呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩、三個禮拜跑不掉，最後final我們的結論不管是有查到還是查不出來，兩、三個禮拜跑不掉。"],["李委員坤城：儘快！因為大家會有點擔心，希望能在兩個禮拜的時間內能夠把結果提出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過我們要逐漸地release出來一些指引，把民眾不安的範圍縮小。"],["李委員坤城：目前看起來是單一事件，就是在寶林茶室那一段時間有吃粿條的人中毒，其他的沒有嘛，對不對？目前是這樣子嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：那至少讓民眾能夠放心。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝李坤城委員。接下來我們請徐巧芯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.83596875,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.72596875,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.907218750000006,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.34909375000001,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.83346875000001,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.57159375,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.31346875,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.52346875,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.45159375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.94096875000001,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.02534375,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.72096875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.53909375,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.98596875000001,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.05659375,"end":107.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.55846875,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.67971875,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.28659375000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEA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我們請這一個薛部長好 請薛部長委員好部長好 辛苦了那先請教一下這一次引起這個寶林茶室中毒事件的目前調查有可能是這個米酵菌酸嘛那我想部長我們可以先證明一下這個米酵菌酸跟米有沒有關係啊"},{"start":33.29,"end":52.185,"text":"事實上沒有太大的關係沒有關係嘛對不對可是因為是講米酵菌酸所以我們很多民眾現在對於米製品不管是貴亞、米台北很多米製品可能都會有一些心生恐懼我是想說今天開始之後我們關於這個米酵菌酸可不可以把它證明一下"},{"start":52.665,"end":54.006,"text":"我們在這裡開始就叫做BKA好不好"},{"start":76.042,"end":92.84,"text":"對啊,他的簡稱叫BKA啊BKA啊好,BKA,好還是說MAA,沒關係啦就至少不要一直重複講米,笑訓酸啦不然這樣吼,大家對這個吼這個大家會有點疑慮啊我也都那個名字我老是記不起來那你知道這個名稱是從哪裡來的?"},{"start":94.769,"end":113.156,"text":"這個翻譯是從中國來的因為中國之前有類似這個案子那我第二個要問就是說其實中國有這個類似的案子但是我們台灣對這個好像一無所知這是第一次那我是認為說不管是來自中國那還是說鄰近的亞洲的相關國家我們應該就對這一種"},{"start":114.876,"end":140.783,"text":"這也不算新型態的中毒案件了啦其實過去在中國或是像好像印尼都有那我是建議這個你們趕快找這個學者專家把這個鄰近的這個亞洲的國家那是不是有這種中毒的這個案例在臺灣沒有發生過的可不可以先做一個整理然後呢就是至少有一個資訊的平台大家先就是你們先有這個資訊平台知道說這個這個新型態的這一個"},{"start":144.064,"end":156.569,"text":"細菌、病毒需要什麼樣的標準體來做檢驗因為你說這第一次遇到好像我們沒有類似的標準體來做檢驗我上次上禮拜問你還說這個要兩個禮拜還好後來我們彰化的醫院"},{"start":160.391,"end":176.949,"text":"對 還有 還好有所以我的第二個問題要問的是說可不可以我們做個整理有一個資訊的平台把鄰近的亞洲國家不一定是指中國這個把它相關的案件重毒案件我們做個整理然後該需要準備什麼標準品我們也做一個整理好不好"},{"start":178.089,"end":194.216,"text":"這可以來做了有沒有一個時間時間因為要整理要看很多文獻那這部分的話恐怕也不是我們這個食藥署的同仁就可以來附和的一定這種東西的話一定要請學界來幫忙那就是說"},{"start":195.757,"end":223.927,"text":"我們至少從現在開始要做啦不要說每次遇到一個新的就是說我們臺灣都沒有這個準備臺灣好像都被保護得很好但是鄰近國家如果有類似的這種病毒或細菌其實我們要預防啦不管是跟中國或是其他的國家委託學界來做這方面的一些設備啦至少建立一個平台起來啦但是這還是需要這沒關係至少現在開始去做需要哪些標準品不夠的就趕快要去買好不好"},{"start":224.787,"end":246.245,"text":"那第三個要請教就是說因為現在齁這個食材整體35件我聽這個王市長講齁都驗不出來都沒有驗出來那呢驗不出來那上一批的這個果條呢大家又吃下去了那你最後怎麼證明那就是這個上一批的果條出問題了我是擔心啊不要像這個臺中那一塊天選之肉"},{"start":248.146,"end":250.688,"text":"這個案子其實就是說最後偵查的結果會是什麼樣子我目前也還沒有辦法先下定論不過他還是會逐漸的縮小這個範圍也就是說"},{"start":277.076,"end":304.54,"text":"因為現在就是說那個口條嘛那現在我聽王市長講說有相關的條件現在就是要去培養說有沒有那個細菌出來但是你那個從這一個廚師在保存到他的一個烹調的過程當中到底是什麼樣的因素造成說可以產生這一個VA出來這個事情就是現在在調查的重點那並不一定"},{"start":305.481,"end":312.394,"text":"最後會有一個確定的答案因為這個已經事過境遷了那最快結果哪時候會知道勒這個"},{"start":317.117,"end":341.13,"text":"兩三個禮拜跑不掉,就是說最後的我們的結論不管是說有查到還是查不出來,那兩三個禮拜大概...盡快啦,因為這個大家會有點擔心,那希望說在兩個禮拜時間,我們能夠把結果寫出來。我們要逐漸的release出來一些就是說指引,那把這個擔心民眾的這種不安的範圍把它縮小。"},{"start":341.59,"end":352.754,"text":"好 看起來就是目前是單一事件就是在這個寶林茶室那段時間有吃這個果條的那其他的沒有嘛 對不對目前是這樣子嘛至少讓民眾能夠放心是好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0d51877cc47d668fc9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a610f22aa09be5a1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:45:06 - 12:51:53","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":407,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:51:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:45:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時45分）我們請周秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長，謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：秘書長，我剛剛聽到立法委員職權行使法行政院大概也不會提版本嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該是不會。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該是以本院院會決議來做處理，所以民眾黨提出了國會改革的版本，當然國民黨有提出，好像民進黨也有提出，看起來朝野對於國會改革其實是有共識的；但是有共識的法案，之前卻一直有一個聲音說我們的版本毀憲亂政，毀憲亂政是任何人可以隨便亂喊的嗎？看起來只要跟他的意見不同，就變成毀憲亂政。請問秘書長，你看過民眾黨的版本嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：拜讀過。"],["黃委員珊珊：民眾黨的版本其實非常的清楚。我要再強調一次，立法委員調查權的權限範圍，從今天的報告可以看出來，其實在民國82年的釋字第325號就已經確立了立法院有調查權、調閱權。釋字第325號解釋提到，立法院為行使憲法所賦予的職權，必要的時候可以調閱文件的原本，而且受要求機關除非法令或其他規定或其他正當理由是不得拒絕。所以調閱權已經確立，目前為止也在執行中，對吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時負責處理這一個職權行使法，原來是要把它擴大，但我個人認為不宜，應該以第325號解釋作為基礎，所以目前的現行法是這樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以當時已經確立了這個部分。但是第325號解釋也說了，如果像監察院一樣，調閱文件有限制，立法院也受相同限制，所以只要在這個範圍之內，調查權也應該是被確立的，對吧！所以對於釋字第325號，民眾黨的修正版本第四十七條有規定，除非法律或其他正當理由得拒絕外，這完全是在釋字第325號的解釋範圍之內，也就是說，民眾黨的版本並沒有違反釋字第325號，這是第一點。","接下來在民國93年的釋字第585號範圍裡面，也確立了調查權的界限還有實質的內容。第一點，必要的時候必須經過院會決議，要求調查事項相關的人民或政府人員陳述意見；第二點，得對違反協助調查義務的人課予罰鍰；第三點，程序上必須以法律為適當規範；第四點，如果委任非立法委員人士協助調查，必須要有特別法；第五點，個案調查事實的範圍，不能違反權力分立跟制衡原則，不能侵害其他機關的權力核心範圍，也不可以對其他機關的權力造成實質妨害，這五大原則是第585號的範圍。同樣的，台灣民眾黨的版本也在這個範圍裡面講得非常的清楚，所有的程序必要時都經過院會決議，同樣在民眾黨版的第四十五條規定，也都非常清楚地要求符合第585號的範圍，更沒有超過罰鍰以外的制裁。我想這個部分程序，秘書長也看過我們的版本，至目前為止，至少，民眾黨的版本是沒有超過第585號的範圍，你可以確定這件事嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：符合第585號的解釋。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以台灣民眾黨提出的版本範圍，其實都在第585號的程序範圍之內，所以就這個版本而言，沒有所謂毀憲亂政的問題，不需要誤導視聽。大家的版本都不一樣，但是台灣民眾黨的版本非常嚴謹的在兩個大法官會議解釋的範圍之內，提出相關條文的內容。","就這個部分，我要講得很明白的就是釋字第633號，有關真調會違憲的部分，因為它直接賦予真調會裁處的權力，它的違憲不是因為我們訂出了由立法院來裁以罰鍰的權力，所以真調會那個條款的違憲，跟我們現在的版本是完全不同的。秘書長，沒錯吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：無關。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以如果民眾黨版沒有違反中華民國憲法，也沒有違反中華民國憲法增修條文，更沒有違反剛剛提到的這幾份大法官會議解釋，請問這個版本何來違憲亂政之說？我們不是活在民國34年中華民國憲法剛剛通過的時候，也不是活在中華民國還有三個國會的時候，民眾黨的版本是為了現在2024年國會要有更好的運作，而且是在大法官會議解釋授權的範圍之內提出改革的版本，「毀憲亂政」這樣的字眼，我希望民進黨團把它收回去。","秘書長，我們必須要捍衛立法院職權行使的權力，立法院不應該閹割自己的調查權，立法院更不應該是行政院的附庸單位！我們應該有獨立的調查職權，在憲法以及大法官會議解釋的範圍之內，充分執行自己的調查權力，而且也能夠協助行政機關改過，協助行政機關面對自己的問題，我想這才是我們立法院職權行使法最重要的目的。"],["周秘書長萬來：我給予肯定。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問秘書長對我們的版本有沒有什麼看法？"],["周秘書長萬來：在處理上，我不好表示哪一個版本好壞，但是在逐條審查過程當中，我們如果有意見，會提出我們的看法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是，在相關大法官會議解釋及中華民國憲法以及增修條文之下，我們不應該隨便扣人家毀憲亂政的帽子。謝謝秘書長！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","其他委員都沒有到。","剛剛比較不好意思，比較暴怒，就像剛剛黃珊珊委員說的動不動就說是毀憲亂政，或是扣你違憲；違不違憲是大法官的職權來認定，行政官員或立法委員都不能隨便說違憲，這是沒有道理，至少我唸法律的人，我沒有辦法接受這種說法。","所有委員都發言完畢，今天詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.96221875,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.011593750000003,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.09596875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.09159375,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.617843750000002,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.91721875,"end":50.993468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":28.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.54971875,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.38159375,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.862218750000004,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.094093750000006,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.237218750000004,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.21471875,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.55846875,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.88909375,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.78721875000001,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.90409375,"end":124.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.48034375,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.83846875,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.45409375000001,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.78096875,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.35034375,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.83784375000002,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.74596875,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.22534375,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.50784375,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.92096875000001,"end":247.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.92471875,"end":252.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.91971875000002,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.54971875,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.37471875,"end":295.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.38971875000004,"end":297.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.11096875000004,"end":299.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.59596875,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.27284375,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.61846875000003,"end":339.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.40409375,"end":341.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.59346875,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.89284375,"end":363.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.56909375000004,"end":371.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.04034375000003,"end":379.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.24221875,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.36034375,"end":379.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.29221875,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.23284375000003,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.63721875000005,"end":387.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.02409375,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.09409375,"end":407.25846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.984,"end":8.004,"text":"麻煩祕書長"},{"start":17.223,"end":42.381,"text":"李總,剛剛聽到說應該是立法委員的職權行使法大概行政院也不會提版本嗎?應該是以本院的院會決議來做處理所以我們提出了民眾黨提出了國會改革的版本當然國民黨也有提出那好像民進黨也有提出那對於國會改革其實看起來是朝野有共識的法案"},{"start":43.121,"end":60.931,"text":"但是有共識的法案之前就已經發生一直有一個聲音說我們的版本毀憲亂政毀憲亂政是任何人都可以隨便亂喊的那看起來只要跟他的意見不同就變成毀憲亂政請問秘書長你看過民眾黨的版本嗎"},{"start":66.314,"end":78.719,"text":"民眾黨的版本其實非常的清楚我要再強調一次立法委員的調查權的權限範圍從今天的報告可以看出來其實從民國82年就已經有釋字325號"},{"start":80.68,"end":108.937,"text":"三百二十五號已經確立了立法院有調查權、調閱權、調查權。那目前為止看起來甚至三二五號立法院為行使憲法所賦予的職權必要的時候可以調閱文件的原本。而且受要求機關除非法令或其他規定或其他正當理由是不得拒絕。所以調閱權是已經確立了。那目前為止也在執行中對吧?"},{"start":110.009,"end":110.129,"text":"三（五（"},{"start":130.077,"end":130.297,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":143.447,"end":160.901,"text":"所以4至325號民眾黨的修正版本我們內容的第47條有規定除非法律或其他政當理由得拒絕外這完全是在4至325號的解釋範圍之內也就是說民眾黨的版本並沒有違反4至325號這第一點"},{"start":163.834,"end":189.708,"text":"第二點,接下來是民國93年的釋字585號。585號的範圍裡面也確立了調查權的界限還有實質的內容。第一個,他有必要的時候必須經過院會決議,要求調查事項相關的人民或政府人員陳述意見。第二點,得對違反協助調查義務的人科與法環。第三點,程序上必須以法律為適當規範。"},{"start":191.343,"end":204.454,"text":"第四點,如果委任非立法院人事協助調查必須要有特別法。第五點,個案調查事實的範圍不能違反權利分立跟制衡原則,不能侵害其他機關的核心範圍,也不可以對其他機關權利行使造成實質妨害。"},{"start":208.718,"end":231.746,"text":"此五大原則是585號的範圍。同樣的,台灣民眾黨的版本也在這個範圍裡面講得非常的清楚,所有的程序都必要時經過院會決議。同樣在民眾黨版的45條規定,都非常清楚地要求符合585的範圍,更沒有超過罰還以外的制裁。"},{"start":232.426,"end":232.526,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":253.015,"end":270.311,"text":"就這個版本沒有所謂毀憲亂政的問題而不需要被誤導視聽大家的版本都不一樣但是台灣民眾黨版本非常嚴謹的在兩個大法官會議解釋的範圍之內做出了我們的相關的條文的內容"},{"start":271.621,"end":276.789,"text":"所以就這個部分我要講得很清楚很明白的就是現在還有一個釋字的633號633號得徵調會違憲是因為他直接賦予徵調會採取的權利"},{"start":284.394,"end":314.394,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":315.335,"end":341.497,"text":"民眾黨我們不是活在民國三十四年中華民國憲法剛通過的時候也不是活在中華民國還有三個國會的時候民眾黨的版本是為了現在2024年國會要有更好的運作而且也在大法官會議授權的範圍之內提出改革的版本毀憲亂政這樣的字眼我希望民進黨團把它收回去"},{"start":342.585,"end":363.609,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":363.609,"end":380.026,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":380.602,"end":380.763,"text":"二）委員"}]}},{"id":"150812","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0aba9175090c3fd260ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a648e605c7b2b947165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:43:47 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延續上一次質詢的主題我要重申一次就是要發展再生能源 要發展綠能我相信 絕大多數的國人都支持但是在這個過程當中如何跟其他的利益取得比較好的平衡而且不能有不正常的正常關係我相信這是大家都有的共識上次主委你也贊成嗎?贊成"},{"start":52.505,"end":70.64,"text":"農電共生是不是你督導的?農電共生後來那個是我在當政務委員的時候那時候你當政務委員的時候是你督導的嗎?那個時候是不是有廠商在施壓政府要把台塘廣大的林地給釋出來讓他們搞重電"},{"start":72.21,"end":78.732,"text":"後來這個政策是不是引發了當地的居民跟環島強烈的抗議?是有不同的聲音,對。後來台塘是不是把這個案子給停下來了?是停下來,沒有錯。是停下來,現在打算要繼續推動嗎?"},{"start":100.715,"end":119.764,"text":"因為我現在已經不歸我督導了OK 還好不歸你督導你終於從那個泥沼裡面給爬出來了為什麼我今天要質詢這個主題因為在這個過程當中我看到這一些有政治後台的廠商如虎的囂張"},{"start":121.737,"end":149.261,"text":"這個是在2019年12月的時候您召集會議要求台糖兩個月以內補正營農型專區計畫書這個營農型就是我們剛剛在講的農電共生我沒有理解錯吧對 但是營農型它有一些小區塊的您剛才提的那個是大面積比較大所以您看一下這個會議上面除了您以外一個非常重要出席的叫做什麼 台糖"},{"start":151.994,"end":174.714,"text":"對啦 就是要台塘提啊所以就是在講我剛剛講的那一件事情啊你想起來了嗎就是當時來講就是請台塘去盤點是不是有剛才講就是20年因為種樹20年要renew嘛啊有一些樹就是怎麼樣種都種不好所以後來台塘決定要釋出是不是配合國家政策"},{"start":181.557,"end":204.446,"text":"2018年事實上在這之前張景生就已經主導了要求台塘釋出750公頃的農地而且還要安排廠商跟潘孟安簡報因為最大塊的全部都在屏東嘛來政委您看一下當時出席的廠商當時出席的廠商台塘嘛"},{"start":206.091,"end":221.882,"text":"聯合再生嘛就是我上次跟你講的嘛聯合再生用張景生當後台是怎麼在搞國家資源的啊我把所有發生事情的時間序啊全部都整理出來了結果2019年6月14號台台就頒布啊"},{"start":226.363,"end":250.081,"text":"配合業者辦理把他們的那些林地全部盤點出來全部都大面積的特別是在哪裡?屏東嘛所以那個時候張景生他為什麼要找你?因為你負責農電工生嘛他為什麼要找潘孟安?因為在屏東縣嘛所有事情的發生一定有他的原因"},{"start":251.209,"end":269.48,"text":"但我沒有辦法接受的是什麼我沒有辦法接受的事情是在搞農電共生這三個巨頭古聖輝洪傳憲蔡中榮三個全部都陰系的三個全部都陰系的"},{"start":271.158,"end":297.131,"text":"在跟台堂開會以前他們就已經開了會前會在圍標阿八家業者找來整個會議全部都他的三個什麼在主導他們三個是有什麼樣子的政治勢力阿可以左右國家的政策要台堂配合就配合就順從他們的意思以後"},{"start":298.686,"end":325.775,"text":"最後的結果是什麼當地的居民環團強烈反對這就是我為什麼一直說當你在發展綠電政策的時候你不能夠被廠商綁架你必須要各方的利害關係人取得平衡當初張景生為什麼找潘孟安為什麼找你"},{"start":327.418,"end":347.191,"text":"我相信這個脈絡非常非常的清楚我最後只問一個問題我最後只問一個問題就有關於釋出台塘的土地繼續搞農電共生這件事情我聽說他們又蠢蠢欲動了您站在國發會主委的立場你贊不贊成你會不會放心"},{"start":348.428,"end":372.622,"text":"報告委員就是說過去的原則還是說如果這個地它根本是不適合栽種的部分那我們就可以來利用但是如果適合那就是還是原來來使用你們在做這個決策的時候當地居民的意見重不重要環團的意見重不重要屏東鄉親的意見重不重要重要重要嘛不會像上次一樣嘛"},{"start":374.235,"end":393.702,"text":"聽這幾個英系廠商的話像台塘施壓地就放出去了搞得後來不可收拾阿整個背景的脈絡我今天已經很負責任了跟主委報告但我希望 但我希望主委你能夠站在國家的立場好好把關可以嗎好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0d62deff1655f5eb125a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6ca5b004953e0395f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:41:33 - 12:47:33","影片長度":"00:06:00","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":360,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:47:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:41:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1284,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時41分）好，謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長辛苦了。我們時間有限，我們來談一下，在整個食安事件當中，其實我們辦公室一直在研究營養午餐的相關法規，我們發現整個食安事件當中有一個角色可能都被大家忽略了，就是食品技師，我先簡單確認一下，部長，你應該知道食品技師的角色，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下，根據現在有的資料，食品科食品技師在整個國家考試當中是有兩千五百多位，可是在專業的換發執照執業的部分，他們的人數卻是0，部長，你知道這個狀況的原因是為什麼嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我就不清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為現在相關的法規當中，他們沒有辦法成立第三方機構、沒有辦法作為單獨驗證的機構，他們必須要受僱於私人企業、民間團體或是政府機關，其實這個現象很有問題，後續我們再來看另外一個事情。","食品安全管理目前分成三級品管制度，如同這個投影片上秀出來的，第一個階段是食品業者必須自主管理；第二個階段則是透過第三方驗證機構進行查核；最後才是政府稽查。可是我們來看一下到底誰要進入第三方驗證機構的查核，在相關法規裡面規定的是在這個紅色框框裡面，例如說，資本額3,000萬以上或者是相關的食品添加業，這些其實都是比較中大型的公司規模。","所以我們來看一下問題到底是什麼？其實全臺灣目前登記的食品業者總數有六十幾萬家，可是可以進到我的投影片說的第二層，被第三方驗證機構查核登記的食品業者目前只有626家，也就是說，六十幾萬家比較626家，其實有將近99.9%的民間業者必須進行自主管理，也就是說，整個食品業者的管理，有這麼多要依靠他們。部長，聽到目前為止，你覺得有哪些問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實第三方驗證機構也就是第二級品管這個部分，是國內相當欠缺的。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前有4個。部長，跟你報告，有4個驗證機構。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這個要建立公信力不是那麼容易。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。可是我剛剛已經跟部長報告了，回過頭來看，其實現在光是到111年年底，已經有兩千多位食品科食品技師經過國家高考，可是若照現行法規，他們又沒有辦法進行單獨的執業驗證，所以我就直接說，有沒有機會？目前所有食品技師都受僱在企業之中，他們就是要拿出自己的良心，然後檢舉他們的老闆，或者部長，你覺得會有什麼可能性？如果他們檢舉這個老闆，可能他們自己會失業，或者是他們的老闆可能為了防堵他們，雖然根據法規的規定請了他們在裡頭工作，可是也可能不讓這些食品技師接觸核心，把他們當成橡皮圖章。","其實我們在跟食品技師接觸當中，我們都認為，如果最後只讓業者自律可能就會出現類似這樣的狀況，所以我們想要請衛福部考慮一下，可不可以像土木技師、會計師這樣有簽證的制度，讓食品技師也可以具備第三方驗證？這樣會更客觀、更公正，同時更有量能為食品安全把關。"],["薛部長瑞元：我覺得是這樣，如果你要食品技師單獨去做簽證的話，他恐怕還是避免不了剛剛委員提到的狀況，就是食品廠的老闆給他壓力。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我剛剛已經說了，我知道部長您的擔心，但是目前他們都被受僱在企業、政府或民間團體裡面，可是像土木技師、會計師因為有第三方的驗證機構，他們自己也要受到相關法規的規範，目前臺灣對於食品技師簽證制度沒有相關的規劃報告，但是其實從2007年就已經有很多業者，包含食品技師，還有很多在意食安的民間團體一直提出這個訴求，因為今天時間有限，是不是可以請衛福部在三個月內提出建立食品技師簽證制度規劃報告？有沒有機會？"],["薛部長瑞元：三個月我不知道能不能弄出來，因為這個牽涉滿大的，第一個，我個人認為不是由這些食品技師去做簽證就好了。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，當然。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是要有機構。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。我剛剛說目前有4個機構。"],["薛部長瑞元：在機構裡面要有二級品管的機構。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，目前二級機構有4個。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在就是說，這個機構要能夠取得民眾的信任，這樣簽證才會有效。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有的這4個機構是否就能夠得到民眾的信任？"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得目前他們得到民眾的信任度應該是有的，可是他們目前負責的量能就是那六百多家，假設我們還要提出更多，他們的量能是會有困難。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分最大的問題真的是這樣，以前有GMP，我們曾經嘗試去建立食品GMP的制度，後來一個頂新的油的案子就整個沖垮了。所以要建立信心非常困難，要把它打掉非常容易。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們再來討論食品技師跟建立信心之間跟機構的關係，或者是第三方簽證在臺灣的可能性，我們再跟衛福部來討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我不敢跟委員答應說三個月就能夠把這個事情完成，但是我們可以開始啟動。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟衛福部討論，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","接下來我們請李坤城委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.886593750000001,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.531593750000003,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.83159375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.38846875,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.20846875,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.47409375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.15096875,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.72659375,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.43159375000002,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.79284375,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.73346875000001,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.17221875,"end":149.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.35784375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.96534375000002,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.03284375,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.97346875000002,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":182.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.68596875,"end":221.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.03846875000002,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.50659375,"end":227.59034375000002},{"s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謝謝陳培瑜委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"150810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0647c4badce61f655ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6ab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:39:35 - 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謝張啓楷委員的執行"},{"start":416.09,"end":422.985,"text":"好,謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。緊接著我們請林俊憲委員,林俊憲委員,林俊憲委員,林俊憲委員不在。緊接著我們請吳淳淳委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c039c255c684b5f029ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6e445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:32:45 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12:39:13","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、內政部、國家發展委員會就「如何積極推動金融業投注國內公共建設，並達成社宅百萬戶之政策目標」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月1日及3日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":388,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:39:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:32:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.08159375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.67034375,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.56471875,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.26471875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.22659375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.52596875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.36971875,"end":94.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.74596875,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.02721875,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.36409375000001,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.80284375000001,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.79159375,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.19096875000002,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.95784375000002,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.85909375,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.27659375000002,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.96409375000002,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.46596875,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.54534375,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.78284375,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.77409375000002,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.46159375000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.82346875000002,"end":224.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.90721875000003,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.19284375,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.43284375000002,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.10784375000003,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.20784375000002,"end":248.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.78534375,"end":251.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.88596875000002,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.53534375000004,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.96596875,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.12596875,"end":318.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.25971875000005,"end":318.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.78284375000004,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.79971875,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.81659375000004,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.96846875,"end":320.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.80784375,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.31534375,"end":342.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.08284375,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.03596875,"end":359.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.16471875,"end":372.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.20471875000004,"end":377.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.52471875000003,"end":378.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.55409375000005,"end":378.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.70596875,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.27034375000005,"end":389.40471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.682,"end":11.35,"text":"謝謝主席,主席有請金管會黃竹瑞保險局司局長然後財政部莊部長還有我們國庫署的陳署長"},{"start":13.249,"end":33.772,"text":"黃主委不好意思因為時間有限了現在只有5分鐘所以我就一起先請上來我想這個有關於今天報紙的頭條的部分這個我就不多言但是我希望就是在這裡主委可以有一個明確的宣誓因為本席過去其實曾經也是財委會出來乍到的委員"},{"start":34.312,"end":44.724,"text":"但是從來是不會要求金管單位去幫我約業者來吃飯我們認識業者一定都是在選民服務或者是一些公協會的活動場上那麼我認為其實這樣的做法有時候好心會壞事因為畢竟金融高度監理那未來這些業者們"},{"start":53.354,"end":81.909,"text":"是不是說變成是跟這些委員吃飯了背後就有靠山又或者是說在接受其他陳情的時候變成是認為說委員是靠山會高高級級輕輕落下之外那麼未來金融監理沒有被邀請或沒有來的也會擔憂說我會不會被秋後算帳那麼接下來這些財閥是不是都有其幕後的原因會影響到金管會的公正性所以我認為如果真的如郭昭偉所說的接下來還有所謂的金扣"},{"start":82.409,"end":84.311,"text":"我會希望說金管會還是必須要有它的公正性存在。"},{"start":96.806,"end":124.64,"text":"我想都是召委那召委對我們的指示那當然我們覺得今天這個事情大家有很多不同的意見我想我剛才也跟其他委員報告過我們在處理上會更周圍好因為我覺得這個有的時候呢真的會造成更多不必要的想像跟聯想那麼其實對於立法院的委員們問政或者是對於金管會都不是一件好事接下來我要詢問的是剛剛我在國防委員會也特別提到的"},{"start":125.12,"end":143.568,"text":"就是我不知道保險局是不是知道這個憲兵聯勤人員跟特勤人員他們的意外團保經過了4次流標現在都還標不出去那麼我要特別提醒的是人數沒有增加投保人數沒有增加但是呢從2020年到現在也沒有出現"},{"start":144.508,"end":169.45,"text":"但是現在兩家民營業者過去曾經連續4年的旺旺流言他不標了變成新光產物依舊流標那麼我想請問就是保險局國防部這裡相關的單位有沒有人來跟你們接洽因為我只想講公股行庫其實也有相關的這種保險公司那麼如果說民營機構不願意保"},{"start":169.79,"end":194.631,"text":"他們認為現在這個生意不能做那麼有沒有可能來做一個協助因為包括莊部長也在這裡國庫署也在這裡我們有台產、有第一產、兆豐產、華南產還有第一售、台銀售、和庫售那麼難道現在是公股、航庫認為國家要打仗嗎所以說不能幫我們憲兵聯勤人員來投保以免"},{"start":196.132,"end":211.724,"text":"這個會入不敷出是這樣嗎兩個問題第一個請問保險局這邊有沒有收到國防部相關的請求跟協助包委員我們沒有收到沒有收到所以你們不了解那麼現在我質詢之後我們可不可以了解一下因為我想局長您專業啦人數不變"},{"start":214.542,"end":235.07,"text":"然後也都沒有出現過但是現在竟然有兩家業者不願意來標留標之後標金就會拉高這個所謂的整體的這個所謂決標的金額當中他包括他的投標金額就會拉高啊這過程當中就起人一鬥囉"},{"start":237.212,"end":251.393,"text":"那麼這個到底是怎麼回事從一千三百二十塊每人保險費變成五千三百塊海流標我想請問的是保險局可以協助嗎?包括莊部長公股行庫可不可以進來有角色?"},{"start":253.224,"end":281.874,"text":"跟委員報告公股航庫在業務推展上它通常是有營運自主的一個原則那我們會尊重他們在金融專業上跟成本效益的一個分析那這個案子我們大概初步了解一般這種就是所謂的那個憲兵特勤保險這個部分過往他們都是用公開招標的方式那這個公司也都是以前是有產險業者是以低價得標所以這一次我們的公股航庫並沒有去參加這一個招標"},{"start":283.374,"end":308.926,"text":"所以現在會變成是我們憲兵特勤人員相關的保險團保保不出去那麼如果說現在是像部長您所說的莊部長所說的他們以運製組所以這個不算是挺國家不算政策供股航庫兩手一攤那我們如何要求民間的業者一起來投保那問題出在哪裡來這個施局長你專業所以這真的是因為"},{"start":310.306,"end":338.045,"text":"國家現在不安全所以憲兵特勤人員的團保沒有人敢接就連公股、航庫也說我有我自己的營業需求你認為這個該怎麼辦?報告委員 這個案子應該已經絕標了啦就是這一次是星光產物的371那我了解的結果是說原來的公司呢他們去洽債保的時候因為我們這兩年來債保公司的債保成本是墊高了"},{"start":338.605,"end":354.965,"text":"所以他那個金額可能超過星光產的部分那所以後來是星光產物拿到這個標案好本席的質詢只是希望說像這種相關的尤其是對於國家來說還是有其必要性跟政策性的部分"},{"start":356.307,"end":372.306,"text":"當然因為現在本席到了國防外交委員會關心的議題會可能比較跟過去不一樣但是我自己認為橫向的聯繫或者是溝通如果必要的時候還是希望金管會財政部這裡可以多給予一點政策上面的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":373.263,"end":377.045,"text":"是,我們會找委員如果有什麼議題可以請我們來研究,謝謝好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0f36748d6686a50a19e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a61db97a0ba832a5a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:36:46 - 12:44:21","影片長度":"00:07:35","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":455,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:44:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:36:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時36分）主席謝謝，我先請立法院周秘書長。不過在質詢周秘書長之前，我很難得看到我們召委那麼的動氣，召委是對好人越好，對壞人越壞。很抱歉！就我們的理解、認知還有瞭解，我們的召委過去就是捍衛全體國人權益的檢察官，而且是正義的使者，能夠保障我們一般無辜的民眾老百姓，我想召委絕對站在第一線，他永不退縮，但如果要來立法院跟我們耍流氓、耍皮條、耍無賴的話，很抱歉！國民黨團也都會一起捍衛我們公平正義的原則，對所有這些傲慢的官員用最嚴厲的角度。對好人越好，對壞人越壞，以德報怨，何以報德？錯了，以直報怨，以德報德，這是我們共同的主張。我今天也利用這個質詢的機會，雖然我們秘書長在這邊，我要跟您請教，但是我還是用這個機會來跟所有的列席官員好好說明清楚，如果2024年新國會新氣象新民意還要用這種過去一黨獨大思維的話，很抱歉，大家看著辦！","想要請教一下秘書長，因為您在這邊比較老資格，一句話想要請您評斷看看，就是這個到底是講哪一個部分、在講誰啊？用你的智慧來猜猜看。長期占有國會多數，到了選舉，在會期的最後幾天才要國會改革，已經完全失信於民，也不讓人有所期待，唯有完成國會輪替，讓改革過半，才能真正開啟國會改革的新契機。以您的智慧，您可以判斷出來這是誰講的話嗎？哪一個政黨講的話？您可以說嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：在選舉過程當中，對國會改革都是一個議題，包括以前跟現在都有，尤其這一次選舉也有，上次蔡總統在選舉的時候，國會改革也都作為選舉過程的議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：秘書長講的非常好，這是2015年蔡英文當時是總統候選人，這是當時他在臉書上寫的一段話，但他的主角叫作國民黨，所以換位置換腦袋，以前他批評國民黨長期占有國會多數，但是現在8年過去了，到底民進黨一黨獨大、在立法院那麼多席次的情況下，國會改革改了什麼？我們現在一樣原封不動把2015年蔡英文總統候選人的話還給民進黨團，還給現在長期執政的民進黨，占國會多數，到了選舉或到了真的要被檢討的時候，才講要拿出國會改革，其實已經完全失信於民，不讓人家有所期待了。","再來，本席在這兩天也有提出來，我們去查了一下，法國、英國、美國、日本和南韓等相關國家其實都有訂定，不管是藐視國會罪或是聽證權的相關法案，甚至如果行政機關在國會做偽證的話，可以處罰鍰或是刑責。請教這部分立法院有沒有做相關的資料研究？"],["周秘書長萬來：我想各位手中大概都有，因為我2月5日就任，6日就請法制局針對調查聽證這個部分，他們3月5日大概都有上網，也給各位一本各國對國會調查權行使權限相關法制研析，我想大概都有了，包括剛才有多位委員對於各國的比較，裡面都有做詳細的分析。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們剛剛提到這幾個民主國家，對於我們中華民國而言，也希望能夠見賢思齊、見不賢而自省之，對不對？所以這幾個民主國家都有這些相關的制定，也許我們在過去沒有想到行政部門可以囂張蠻橫、霸權到這個程度，在過去8年看到行政權長期凌駕立法權，甚至好像讓我們民意代表變成黨意代表，所以現在是還權於民的時候。","本席最後再請教，這個禮拜三可能就會針對立法委員職權行使法以及刑法召開公聽會跟進行逐條審查，以立法院的角度，是不是都是尊重我們委員的見解？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，立法過程當然就是由委員決定啦，以院方的角度當然在行政上會配合。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，立法院是行政配合嘛，那如果說有行政部門、行政權還是刻意阻撓、刻意抗拒，不提出版本或是認為不需要修正，那這怎麼辦？"],["周秘書長萬來：職權行使法大概行政院不會提版本，一定是我們院裡面自己委員的提案。"],["洪委員孟楷：刑法呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：刑法上，長期以來有些情況是一定要行政機關來的版本，併同審查也有，其實也不一定非有行政院的版本才能夠啟動審議過程。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，謝謝秘書長。最後本席提出還權於民三部曲，第一部是立法委員職權行使法，第二部是刑法修正，第三部是第10屆已經講得沸沸揚揚的吹哨者保護法，我們也認為是勢在必行。第10屆的時候，民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨、時代力量4個黨團都有提出吹哨者保護法的版本，但是遲遲沒有看到政院版，所以第10屆到最後沒有辦法在會期結束之前能夠實質討論吹哨者保護法。第11屆新國會新會期，我想也是回應民意，所以我們會拜託召委以最快的速度來排吹哨者保護法的審查，還權於民三部曲，這三個部分其實都是把過去立法權不彰的地方、長期被行政權給掩蓋，我們把它給找回來，讓國人能夠在法制上有更大的保障。所以當我們提出吹哨者保護法在討論的時候，立法院提相關建議時，也請秘書長秉持專業公正，給我們相關建議，這樣可以嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們法制單位會來……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝秘書長。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.25659375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.555968750000002,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.345968750000004,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.13909375,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.89846875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.15971875000001,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.66596875,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.07846875,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.21284375000002,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.49096875,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.13221875000002,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.29221875000002,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.32096875000002,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.08034375,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.28659375,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.88971875000001,"end":156.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.67346875,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.15846875,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.46034375000002,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.74096875,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.78409375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":208.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.42034375,"end":214.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.03534375,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.37971875000002,"end":230.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.86409375000002,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.51346875000002,"end":236.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.80409375000002,"end":240.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.22534375,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.12659375,"end":263.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.48096875000002,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.17534375,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.92596875000004,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.18284375,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.94471875,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.65346875,"end":327.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.09784375000004,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.36346875000004,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.20159375000003,"end":346.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.22659375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.99784375,"end":350.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.52471875000003,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.02659375,"end":352.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.74784375,"end":357.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.19034375,"end":357.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.47721875,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.48534375,"end":359.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.66659375,"end":361.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.97846875000005,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.76534375,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.55846875000003,"end":377.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.54971875,"end":381.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.38909375000003,"end":394.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.90596875,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.67034375000003,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.61534375,"end":420.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.82596875,"end":426.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.33971875000003,"end":451.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.33596875,"end":453.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.18784375,"end":454.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.28471875,"end":455.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.411,"end":35.663,"text":"主席謝謝我先請我們那個立法院秘書長好不好周秘書長不過在周秘書長質詢您之前我想我很難得看我們召委那麼的動氣召委是對好人越好對壞人越壞很抱歉如果說過去就我們的理解跟認知還有了解我們的召委過去就是捍衛我們全體國人的權益的檢察官而且是正義的使者"},{"start":36.397,"end":63.2,"text":"那能夠保障我們無辜一般的民眾老百姓我想昭偉絕對站在第一線他永不退縮但如果說要來立法院跟我們耍流氓耍皮條耍無賴的話很抱歉國民黨團一起也都會捍衛我們公平正義的原則對我們所有的這些傲慢的官員用最嚴厲的角度對好人越好對壞人越壞"},{"start":65.042,"end":92.823,"text":"以德報怨何以報德啊?錯了!以職報怨以德報德啊!所以說這是我們共同一個主張我想今天也利用這個資訊的機會再一次雖然是我們秘書長在這邊我要跟你請教啊但是我還是用這個機會來跟我們所有的列席官員來好好的說明清楚如果說2024年新國會新氣象新民意還要用這種過去一黨獨大的思維的話很抱歉大家看著辦"},{"start":94.793,"end":116.532,"text":"來 委員長請教一下我先跟您請教一下因為您在這邊比較老資格啦我一句話想要請您評斷看看就是說這個到底是講哪一個部分講誰啊你用你的智慧來猜猜看長期佔有國會多數啊到了選舉啊會期的最後幾天才要國會改革啊"},{"start":116.972,"end":130.088,"text":"已經完全的失信於民也不讓人有所期待。唯有完成國會輪替讓改革過半才能真正開啟國會改革的新契機。以您的智慧您可以判斷出來這是誰講的話嗎?"},{"start":132.267,"end":154.932,"text":"哪一個政黨講的話可以嗎?因為我不太...選舉過程當中一定都有對國會改革都是一個議題啦包括以前跟現在都有尤其這一次選舉也有那上次蔡總統在選舉的時候也對國會改革都作為在選舉過程的議題"},{"start":157.653,"end":180.641,"text":"這是2015年蔡英文當時總統候選人在她臉書上寫的一段話但她的主角叫做國民黨所以換位置換腦袋以前她在批評講說國民黨長期佔有國會多數但是現在八年過去了到底民進黨一黨獨大在立法院那麼多的一個席次國會改革改了什麼"},{"start":181.929,"end":206.016,"text":"我們現在一樣原封不動把2015年蔡英文總統候選人的話還給民進黨團還給現在長期執政的民進黨占國會多數到了選舉或說到了真的要被檢討的時候才講是說要拿出國會改革其實已經完全失信於民不要讓人家有所期待再來本席在這兩天也有提出來我們去查了一下"},{"start":207.659,"end":230.3,"text":"法國、英國、美國、日本、南韓等相關國家其實都有訂定不管是藐視國會罪不管是聽證權的相關法案甚至如果說我們的行政機關在國會做偽證的話可以處不管是罰還或是刑責的部分我想請教立法院有沒有做相關的資料研究"},{"start":231.459,"end":231.579,"text":"三）委員楊瓔"},{"start":253.895,"end":269.055,"text":"國會調查權行使權限相關法制延期,我想大概都有,包括剛才有蠻多委員對於各個國家的這個比較都有,裡面都有做一個分析,詳細的分析。"},{"start":270.216,"end":299.374,"text":"所以世界各民主國家我們剛剛提到這幾個民主國家相對來說其實也都是我們中華民國也希望見賢思齊見不賢而自省之嘛對不對所以也是認為過去這幾個國家民主國家裡面都有這相關的一個制定那也許我們過去之前這個行政部門沒有想到可以囂張蠻橫霸道霸權到這個程度所以在過去八年看到行政權長期凌駕立法權啊"},{"start":300.094,"end":328.389,"text":"甚至好像讓我們的這個民意代表變成很多民意代表變黨議代表所以現在是還權於民的時候民主黨本期最後再請教我今天我們這個禮拜三可能就會針對這個我們這一次的這個立法委員職權行使法以及刑法這邊來做一個主條的公聽會跟主條審查嘛以立法院的角度是不是都是尊重我們委員的一個見解"},{"start":329.457,"end":350.735,"text":"當然這個本來就是立法過程當然就是由委員決定了但以院方的角度當然是行政上會配合是立法院是行政配合嗎那如果說有這個行政部門行政權還是刻意阻撓刻意抗拒不提出版本或說認為是說不需要修正那這怎麼辦"},{"start":354.194,"end":378.338,"text":"呃（執權行使法大概行政院不會提版本啦。一定是我們院裡面自己的委員的提案。那刑法勒?刑法上這個長期來有些的情況是說一定要行政機關來的版本在並同審查也有。其實也不一定會有行政院的版本才能夠啟動這一個審議過程。是謝謝民主黨那最後"},{"start":381.579,"end":408.301,"text":"本席也在提還權於民三部曲第一部立法委員職權行使法第二部刑法修正以及我們第三部第十屆已經長得沸沸揚揚吹哨者保護法我們認為說是勢在必行第十屆的時候民進黨國民黨民眾黨時代力量四個黨團都有提出吹哨者保護法版本但是遲遲沒有看到政院版所以第十屆到最後沒有辦法在"},{"start":409.021,"end":435.783,"text":"會期結束之前能夠實質能夠討論吹哨者保護法第11屆新國會新會期我想也是回應民意所以我們也會拜託我們的召委在最快的速度來排吹哨者保護法的一個審查還權於民三部曲這三個部分其實都是把過去立法權不章的地方長期被行政權給這個掩蓋我們把它給找回來"},{"start":436.323,"end":455.845,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"150807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0cf256c4e576964bf0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a694d4c3b9d427a4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"12:38:25 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12:43:24","影片長度":"00:04:59","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":299,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:43:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:38:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（12時38分）謝謝主席。各位委員、在場所有中央各部會的官員，今天要再一次地表達，過去臺灣能夠邁出第一個大步就是經國先生的十大建設；再過來是民國88年正式動工，就是我們的高鐵，從臺北到左營；我想接下來是第三個階段，此時此刻，更希望我們國家能夠追隨全世界現在快速進步的腳步，能夠把我們該有的這些基礎建設，儘快地建置完成，所以，環島高鐵是刻不容緩的。當然，早上我播放影片給大家一起來瞭解，韓國瑜韓院長告訴陳建仁院長，環島高鐵通車的時候，可能他們兩位都不在人世間了，但是要留給代代的兒孫來走，我想這是一個很感人的畫面。但是反過頭來講，這也是一個值得商榷、很悲傷的畫面，為什麼在別的國家跟地區一個月可以蓋一條高速公路？為什麼一個快鐵可以在短短一年、兩年的時間完成？我相信韓國瑜韓院長此時還正值壯年，才六十多歲啊！如果他都看不到，是不是20年內都看不到？所以此時此刻，我們希望透過國會確實地反映民意，讓臺灣這個大家庭不分族群、不分屬性，大家能夠有一個共同的生活圈。","今天的歷史上會寫下今天大家所表達的意見，畢竟不管我們如何，崐萁要再次強調，未來我們含飴弄孫的時候、驀然回首的時候，會想到哪一條重要的道路或者是重要的建設，是在我們任內的時候完成的！我想20年如果都不能完成環島高鐵的話，那我們立法更有其必要性，因為有了立法之後，我們把這一個條例開放式地給國發會抑或是國發會要責成交通部來進行，第一個，政府可以編列預算逐年來執行；第二個，政府可以邀集國內或國際的廠商來做BOT、來做開發。","在民國85年，中華民國有一個非常重大的決定，當時有王永慶還有蔡萬霖等人，由臺灣的大企業家來當評審委員，評審出臺灣高鐵團隊，當時評選結束以後，在88年動工，短短的七、八年當中，就把它興建完成。如果未來我們能夠再一次地推動國內或國際的BOT標，讓國際的主權基金抑或是這些重大的建設企業集團能夠來到臺灣的話，未來不管是十個工作面，八個工作面同時動工，未來臺灣高鐵在短短五年、八年內完工，環島這並不是夢。今天我們回應百分之六十以上的民意，是希望儘快把環島高鐵做起來，我想大家可以上網看一下雅虎的最新民調，雖然我的老朋友柯總召一直把這個民生建設議題當作政治議題來攻防，在大家劍拔弩張的情況之下，各自政黨支持者全部回歸各自的陣營，而在雅虎的民調上，還有六成的人支持、希望臺灣高鐵的環島高鐵能夠儘快來興建，所以我們謝謝各位委員今天的出席，我們一起來見證今天臺灣環島高鐵就在各位的手上孕育而成，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請黃建賓委員，黃建賓委員，黃建賓委員不在現場。","我們請陳雪生委員，陳雪生委員，陳雪生委員不在現場。","我們請洪孟楷，洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在現場。","我們請羅智強，羅智強，羅智強委員不在現場。","我們請黃國昌委員，請作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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次長我在上週請教你們台鐵的國營公司的總經理那個你認為自動售票機應該工作的比人晚還是比人提早休息?"},{"start":78.28,"end":93.748,"text":"市長,我認為在那個時間看起來,即使在後面9點鐘的時候,今天售票機應該能夠幫助人力上的節省。我問了半天,這個售票機制要檢討,對不對?結果你們現在說這個要結帳,然後呢?"},{"start":99.523,"end":105.245,"text":"市長你認為是機器來服務人還是人來服務機器?應該是機器來服務人你們的機器好像還有人去幫他結帳結帳完機器就休息了,人還要辛苦在那邊工作,你覺得這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":127.35,"end":150.209,"text":"報告委員,這個上次委員有質詢過這個議題,我們回去有把它整理出現。來,委員會議員、會計處處長。你認為你們的會計制度上,自動售票機要每天結帳,要人工去關帳嗎?你有要求嗎?不用。不用?那為什麼台鐵這樣做,你覺得呢?它什麼原因?我不曉得,因為他們系統怎麼設計的,我不太清楚。也不曉得齁。好,來,那個鐵道局副局長。來,楊局長。"},{"start":152.452,"end":154.353,"text":"你對捷運熟吧?"},{"start":154.353,"end":155.854,"text":"是的。高鐵熟吧?"},{"start":155.854,"end":173.542,"text":"是的。北捷車站117站,自動售票機337台,台鐵241站,比它多了一倍,但是自動售票機多不到100台。就你所知,北捷的售票機要不要關機重開,才能服務旅客?"},{"start":174.69,"end":177.832,"text":"可不可以請總經理告訴次長你們到底為什麼要把機台關機結帳然後讓人工去售票讓機器去休息"},{"start":198.953,"end":206.775,"text":"市長懂了齁?你去ATM的時候有沒有一段銀行打烊後還去ATM提款的有沒有?有沒有?沒有過?你這個很好命,我常常銀行下班我要去提款"},{"start":223.82,"end":253.022,"text":"但是我也常常看到有人定期去補鈔補鈔的人他是沒有在管上下班的時間到有故障有排除就要去你能不能認為在這種情況下只需要維持最少人力就可以幫助售票機自動運行完全同意完全同意完全同意好來總經理也有人說節能減碳不是在高風流量的客群的時候你們可以把那個自動售票機減少這樣也符合環保減碳你同不同意對同意好那請教一下那目前你們怎麼改善"},{"start":253.895,"end":267.511,"text":"對,我們目前現在已經有做全面的檢討,就是我們限定,我們自動售票機11點...你們結帳的目的是不是要把現金放到保險櫃裡面,安全是不是?那放完了現金,那個機器可不可以繼續服務?"},{"start":269.453,"end":275.755,"text":"市長 你聽到沒有 這就是台鐵公司的思維啊 他把現金方圓保險庫這個機器就休息了 下班了 高鐵是這樣做嗎 不是嘛 那你怎麼辦 市長 指導一下吧"},{"start":289.275,"end":289.355,"text":"臺鐵要跟你負責"},{"start":310.299,"end":310.559,"text":"市長覺得這樣可以考慮嗎?"},{"start":332.324,"end":332.805,"text":"臺鐵運營不上進步"}]}},{"id":"150805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08c6176a6b13e640c9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6e3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:21:59 - 12:35:54","影片長度":"00:13:55","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":835,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:35:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:21:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時22分）麻煩行政院副秘書長。副秘書長，我知道您的專業是大傳、傳播嘛，但是有關一些法律的部分，我還是要提出來一些問題。我有看過行政院這一次對於我們修法的報告，我知道您主修不是法律，所以就細節的部分，我也不會為難，但是我必須講，就是麻煩你們行政院同仁要認真一點，我待會會把資料給你，他不能牛頭不對馬嘴的來批評我們的提案，如果他今天講這個有什麼違憲之虞或什麼，我覺得那是價值上的判斷，有沒有違憲是個人上的判斷，但你不能拿A案跟我無關的東西來批評我的B案啊！不能這麼幹，等一下我會給你看，不一樣的東西不能這樣亂批評，除非寫這些的人就是要糊弄你們這些長官，那我就無話可說了。但是我看到他的報告是在糊弄你們這些長官，因為他就是要寫給你看他要批評這些立法委員的提案，但是他拿的東西必須要像個樣子的來批評，他不能拿不一樣的東西來批評，所以我必須在這邊提出，貴院這幾個批評我們法案的那幾個人，所寫的東西我真的覺得蠻low的，算了！我有時候看到這樣，我覺得不應該啦，要認真一點，至少我當立法委員也是認真在看每一個東西。"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我可以先跟您澄清，這份報告我看過，而且我自己親自改過，所以這個我負完全的責任，不要怪罪我們的同仁。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，就這樣啦！所以我剛剛有說，我說您的主修不是這個嘛！沒關係，待會我再跟你說大概狀況是出在哪裡。當然今天我們講了很多第585號的部分，第585號認定立法院在有必要的狀況下，其實是有調查權得以行使的，對不對？這個應該沒有問題吧？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：是，我同意。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教一下，我們之前有提到金門撞船那個案子，我們如果成立調閱小組，你認為有違憲的問題嗎？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：金門這個案子因為牽涉到國安，我覺得可能要釐清一下。"],["吳委員宗憲：可能要什麼？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：釐清。因為國安屬於行政特權吧，委員，是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，沒關係，讓你這樣講。那我這邊來跟你說明我的見解好了。第一個，當然第585號已經說明的非常清楚，立法院在職權行使上面其實有一定的調查權。再來是不管海巡署有沒有配備有沒有密錄器，船隻、油料以及人員的費用，這個都是國家的預算嘛，立法院本來就這個部分就有審查的權限，所以就這個部分去加以調查，我個人認為是沒有什麼違憲的問題，這段時間就這個部分好像大家有所爭執，沒關係，我剛剛就是表示我的意見，不管副秘書長的想法怎麼樣，我都尊重。","繼續再請教你，就第585號我們今天所談到的，你們拿第585號來說我們這一次提的修法是有問題的，好吧，這樣講好了，我先回過頭跟大家講一個東西好了，我先提一下，就我們這次國會改革，早期從2016一路過來，其實民進黨有很多相關類似提案，在多次的訪問還有很多我都有提過，像顧立雄也有提過，李俊俋也有提過。顧立雄的版本當時吳思瑤委員也是連署的提案人之一，剛剛他講了很多關於憲法、法律、命令的法律位階，當然這個法律位階是沒有問題，我覺得他講的都很OK，都沒有問題，但這東西到底有沒有違憲，這絕對不是立法委員或是官員任何人可以說了算，我想這個還是要等最後大法官怎麼認定，這個絕對不是像剛剛拿了一個法律的位階圖，然後跟你說法律不能違背憲法，所以你們不能做這樣的修法，那這個是廢話，這絕對是廢話，因為這是法律的ABC。我們今天要討論的是為什麼你認定我們的修法叫作違憲，而不是說法律只要違反憲法就是違憲，所以你叫作違憲，這個不是，這個叫作結論，他現在是倒果為因的認為我們今天的提案是違憲，其實我是聽不太懂他的邏輯是什麼。","從2016開始其實有非常多人，包括顧立雄、包括李俊俋，很多人都一直提出國會其實應該要有一定的調查權，那有一些國會改革的法案，2016到現在，雖然照他所說的沒錯，社會有所變動，但是憲法不可能亂變動，憲法是國家的根本大法，絕對不是像剛剛那幾位委員說的，這個社會有變動，2016到現在有變化，以前認為不違憲，現在變違憲，我跟你講，沒有人這樣解釋憲法的啦！8年內憲法認定就變違憲，這真的會笑死憲法學者，所以這個部分我覺得他剛剛講的是蠻莫名其妙的。","好，那我們再回過頭來看貴院的報告，貴院的報告是引用第585號，認為我們在職權行使法第二十五條、第二十六條所提到的，我的版本有一個是希望處1萬元以上30萬元以下的罰鍰，針對這部分，他是引用第585號，他認為是違反法律的程序。但是我必須講，第585號當時不是在談質詢，他當時在談的是一個調查權的問題，那你怎麼會拿討論調查權的東西放到我這邊在討論質詢的東西呢？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：解釋一下喔，是這樣子，第585號確實是僅止於調查權的範圍，我要強調的是在第585號解釋裡面關於裁罰跟刑罰的部分都被宣告違憲，條文都被宣告違憲……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是這樣，不是這樣，你不能亂解釋！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，您先聽我說……"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊要先講，請你不要亂解釋喔！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：不、不！"],["吳委員宗憲：你這是胡說八道！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我還沒講完……"],["吳委員宗憲：你這是胡說八道！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，我還沒有講完。"],["吳委員宗憲：釋字怎麼寫的？我跟你講，你收回你剛剛的話！大法官哪有講那一句話？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：這是事實，這是事實，委員你如果讀到後面的話，這樣是沒有錯的，真調會條例裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼叫作不行？他有說你要經過正當的法律程序……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：委員，司法院在這邊，我可以請司法院副秘書長過來，好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：你前提沒有講，你就直接下結論，你這是在騙人耶！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：不是，我要澄清……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有辦法接受你這樣，請你下去，我沒有辦法接受你這樣的說法！我是唸法律的……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：那我請法規會主委來談，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：不必，不用了，我不問你了，我唸法律的，我沒有辦法接受你這樣子胡說八道，行政權不能亂解釋大法官會議解釋，我不能這樣子接受！你不講前提就直接說這樣違憲，莫名其妙嘛！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：委員，這個是事實，這是585釋憲文裡面的事實，他的理由書跟釋憲文本身就是載明相關的行政罰跟刑罰的條文是違憲……"],["吳委員宗憲：時間先暫停嘛，主席要發表意見，時間先暫停！"],["主席：時間先暫停，委員已經請您下去，您不用講了。"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，委員，我還沒有說完。"],["主席：請您不用講了，主席已經告訴您，請您下台……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我尊重委員的看法……"],["主席：不用！請您下台，我已經告訴您了，奇怪，這是要動用糾察權嗎？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：釋憲文裡面也承認委員有行政罰的……"],["吳委員宗憲：行政官員來立法院，麻煩尊重立法院的主席好嗎？"],["主席：對啊！我是主席，我已經請您下台了，你不用再辯論了。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，我質詢是不發脾氣的，但是副秘書長，你真的讓我生氣了！行政官員怎麼可以這樣隨便解釋大法官會議解釋？"],["主席：好，請回座休息。"],["吳委員宗憲：這部分我必須說不好意思，我必須講我實在是不認同剛剛那一句話，叫作大法官會議直接認定這個是違憲，不是這樣子，而是大法官認為必須符合正當的法定程序跟法律明確性的要求之下，你才能這麼做，並不是說這麼做違憲，所以我不接受這個說法。如果是你剛剛說錯，你必須說你剛剛說錯，說你講太快，我跟你講，我這是第一次在質詢裡面發脾氣。","我必須要講的就是，你們不應該拿兩個不一樣的東西，放到我對於詢答、質詢上面，我認為質詢上面應該要有罰鍰，你不能這樣子隨便拿個大法官會議解釋做這樣的認定，而且我的做法並不是毫無法定程序，我也是要求如果我們認定有這樣，經過國會的決議後是送給行政法院處理，跟之前的作法是由他們直接去下這個決定是不一樣的，所以我不接受你們行政院的答復。","另外，有關你們認為我提的版本第十七條草案第三項，行政院各部會首長跟新任官員經由全體委員三分之一以上連署或附議，由院會議決，就其人事進行聽證。你們說這是我們會侵害到你們的人事決定權，違反憲法分立跟制衡原則。我必須跟貴院說，第一，我們說的是聽證，我的草案寫的非常清楚，是就人事進行聽證，這個怎麼會影響到你的提名權？我也不是說同意權，所以我從頭到尾說的是聽證，聽證是讓國會能夠監督這些院長任命的首長是否符合民意，你硬要拗說這個違反權力分立，我跟你講，就像我之前說的，我們現在在面對行政院，行政院只要對於自己不想要看到的法案，說法就一句話違憲，我跟你講，大家不是沒有唸過書，不要用膝蓋來思考事情，不能這樣子做。就像你剛講的，為什麼我覺得你們不應該這麼說，你今天當到行政院這麼高的官，然後你這樣解釋，之前我遇過很多官員在那邊兜圈子，亂說一通，那我也覺得好吧，那就算了，但是今天我沒有辦法接受這樣子。更何況副秘書長以前是柯總召的助理，你應該很清楚立法院怎麼運作，你應該非常清楚，說真的我沒有辦法接受政府總是用錯誤的訊息來誤導人民，這是不應該的，以前這樣可以，現在這樣不行，跟我說這是因為社會在轉變，如果社會在轉變會這麼嚴重的影響憲法，幾年內憲法就整個翻轉，那憲法就不叫作中華民國的根本大法！我真的是真心這樣認為，我這個人的腦子也是一條線、很直的人，法律怎麼規定，我就怎麼做，甚至我最近的一些發言跟黨內也不一樣，我還是堅守我的立場，我一直都是這樣，甚至人家說你為什麼要維護民進黨、維護賴清德，我說不是，是因為我對於憲法以及法律的認定是這樣，我就要堅守，我很笨，我就是這樣子的人。那我剛剛沒有辦法接受行政院的這兩個見解，而行政院對於法律、對於大法官會議的說法，我也沒有辦法接受。不好意思，謝謝大家。"],["主席：本席還要再強調一次，在委員會的質詢台上，請尊重質詢委員以及主席的規則，請官員下台的時候不要還一直在備詢台上遲遲不肯下去。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：接下來請沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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立法院"},{"start":160.918,"end":189.112,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。厲?這應該沒有問題嗎?那我想請教一下喔,就是我們之前有提到說這個金門那個撞船的那個案子為什麼我們如果說成立這個調閱小組你認為有違憲的問題嗎?議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 金門這個案子因為牽涉到國安我覺得可能要釐清一下"},{"start":190.149,"end":194.151,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":213.459,"end":240.804,"text":"海巡署所配備的有沒有密錄器、船隻、油料以及人員的費用,這個都是國家的預算嘛。那立法院本來就這個部分就有一個審查的權限。所以就這個部分去加以調查我個人認為是沒有什麼違憲的問題。那這段時間就這個部分好像大家有所爭執。那沒關係我剛剛就表示我的意見,那不然這個副秘書長的想法怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重。"},{"start":242.104,"end":259.27,"text":"我再請教你一個東西我們來看就是就585號我們今天所談到的在585號你們拿這個585號來說我們所提的我們這次的修法是有問題的"},{"start":273.632,"end":279.877,"text":"啊沒有亂講好了我先回過頭去跟大家講一個東西好了啦你剛跳到那個前面那幾個"},{"start":283.691,"end":310.134,"text":"我先提一下就我們這次國會改革其實在早期從2016其實一路過來民進黨有很多相關類似的提案其實在多次的訪問還有很多我都有提過像顧立雄也有提過李俊毅也有提過那再往下那甚至呢在顧立雄的版本或者是那個顧立雄版本裡面其實我們現在的那個無私"},{"start":311.255,"end":339.908,"text":"無效委員他當時也是聯署的提案人之一啦那至於說剛剛他講了很多就是憲法法律命令這個法律未接那當然這個法律未接是沒有問題我覺得他講的都很OK都沒有問題但這東西到底有沒有違憲這絕對不是立法委員或是官員任何人可以說了算我想這個還是要等最後大法官怎麼認定嘛這個絕對不是說像剛剛拿了一個法律的未接圖然後就跟你說法律"},{"start":340.708,"end":367.073,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":368.155,"end":372.901,"text":"從2016開始其實有非常多的人包括顧立雄包括李俊毅包括很多人都一直提出說這個"},{"start":375.912,"end":397.308,"text":"國會其實應該有一定的調查權那他有一些國會改革的法案那2016到現在雖然照他所說的沒錯社會有所變動但是憲法不可能亂變動憲法是國家的根本大法絕對不是像剛剛那幾位委員說的這個社會有變動2016到現在所以有變化所以以前"},{"start":398.489,"end":418.61,"text":"認為不違憲現在變違憲。我跟你講沒有人這樣解釋憲法的啦。八年內憲法認定就會違憲這真的會笑死憲法學者。所以這部分我覺得他剛剛講的是蠻莫名其妙的。好那我們再回過頭來我們來看我們這一次就是貴院的報告。貴院的報告他是認為說他是引用585號"},{"start":421.429,"end":445.676,"text":"他認為我們在這個職權行使法25條26條所提到的有一個我的版本是有一個是希望處這個一萬元以上三十萬元以下的罰款他認為這個東西他當時他是以五八五號他認為是違反法律的程序但是呢我必須講五八五號他當時在談的是"},{"start":447.597,"end":453.921,"text":"五八五號的那個確實他是僅止於這個調查權的範圍喔那麼我要強調的是說在五八五號解釋裡面呢關於裁罰跟刑罰的部分都被宣告違憲條文都被宣告違憲"},{"start":477.517,"end":478.097,"text":"五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑"},{"start":494.914,"end":510.049,"text":"這是事實。這是事實。委員你如果讀到後面的話是這樣是沒有錯的。爭調會條例裡面關於什麼叫做不行他有說你要經過正當的法律程序你前提沒有講你就直接下結論你這個在騙人欸我沒有辦法接受你這樣"},{"start":513.292,"end":526.499,"text":"請你下去我沒有辦法接受你這說法我念法律的不用我不問你了我念法律的我沒有辦法接受你這樣子胡說八道行政權不能亂解釋大法官會議解釋我不能這樣子接受"},{"start":528.236,"end":553.202,"text":"她的前提,不講前提就直接說她這樣違憲。莫名其妙嘛。司法部釋憲文裡面的事實,她的理由書跟釋憲文本身就是載明相關的行政法跟刑法的條文是委員先暫停嘛。時間先暫停。主席要發表意見,時間先暫停。剛剛那個委員已經請您先下去,您不用講了。等一下委員,我還沒說完。請您不用講了。我們是主席。"},{"start":556.883,"end":577.438,"text":"已經告訴您請您下台然後不用請您下台我已經告訴您了奇怪這是要怎麼樣這個糾察權嗎請政官員來立法院麻煩尊重立法院的主席好嗎我跟你講我質詢是不發脾氣的但是副秘書長你真的讓我生氣了好請你回座休息"},{"start":587.604,"end":587.744,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":606.035,"end":631.168,"text":"而正當的法律程序跟法律明確性的要求之下你才能這麼做並不是說這麼做違憲所以我不接受這個說法那如果是你剛剛說錯你必須說你剛剛說錯講太快我跟你講我這是第一次在質詢裡面發脾氣好那我剛剛我必須講的就是你們不應該拿兩個不一樣的東西放到我對於詢答質詢上面我認為質詢上面應該"},{"start":634.807,"end":657.676,"text":"我認為執行上面應該要有這些法環你不能這樣子隨便拿個大法官會議解釋做這樣的認定而且我的做法並不是說毫無那個法定程序我也是要求說如果我們認定有這樣經過國會這邊的那個決議之後是送給行政法院處理"},{"start":658.775,"end":658.815,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":676.138,"end":703.889,"text":"還有就是有關你們認為說我提的版本的第17條草案第三項你們認為說我們講的行政院各部會首長跟新任官員均有全體委員三分之一以上聯署或副議由院會決一決就其人事進行聽證那你們說這個是我們會侵害到你們的人事決定權違反憲法分立跟制衡原則我必須跟"},{"start":705.598,"end":728.748,"text":"貴委員說,第一個我們說的是聽證我的草案寫得非常清楚是就人事進行聽證這個怎麼會影響到你的提名權我也不是說同意權所以我從頭到尾我說的是聽證那聽證是讓國會有監督這些院長任命的首長是否符合民意那你硬要拗說這個違反權利分立"},{"start":730.569,"end":744.899,"text":"好那我跟你講就像我之前說的我們現在在面對行政院行政院只要對於自己不想要看到的法案說法就違憲就一句話違憲我跟你講大家不是沒有念過書不要用膝蓋來思考事情啊"},{"start":745.76,"end":745.88,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":770.031,"end":798.21,"text":"科總召的助理你應該很清楚立法院怎麼在運作嘛你應該非常清楚所以你也知道我說這種我沒有辦法去接受政府總是用錯誤的訊息來誤導人民這是不應該的以前這樣可以現在這樣不行跟我說這個是因為社會在轉變如果社會在轉變會這麼嚴重的影響憲法幾年內憲法就整個翻轉那憲法就不叫做中華民國的根本大法"},{"start":799.568,"end":814.144,"text":"我真的是真心這樣認為啦那我這個人腦子也是一條線很直的人法律怎麼規定我就怎麼做甚至我最近的一些發言跟黨內也不一樣我還是堅守我的立場我一直都是這樣甚至人家說你為什麼要維護"},{"start":815.245,"end":833.4,"text":"我互民進黨我互賴清德我說不是因為我對於憲法以及法律的認定是這樣我就要堅守我很笨我就是這樣子的人那我剛剛沒有辦法接受行政院的這兩個見解那行政院你們的對於法律對於大法官會議的說法我也沒有辦法接受不好意思謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"150804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0c27966c8a2568c0125a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:30:08 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部長我想這個案子寶林事件發生之後臺灣人為什麼會這麼害怕因為我們實在是一個米製品無所不在的社會也就是說米製品是每天人民日常生活一定要做的一定會使用到的東西然後果條又是非常普遍的民生"},{"start":34.929,"end":34.969,"text":"黃珊珊議員"},{"start":56.659,"end":73.533,"text":"這部分的話我們會優化我們的這個非得不可的這個系統因為所有的這應該投保的應該會登到那上面去我們希望就是說優化的方向是讓他在保單到期前一個月就能夠檢視"},{"start":74.674,"end":101.003,"text":"所以除了你們這邊之外其實今晚會產險工會他可以協助很多的事項我的意思是說以後應該是地方政府包括保險局包括產險業產險工會他來完整的建立一個類似的平台而這個平台不是單單只有衛福部要自己跑去登錄你可能除非他登錄之外你可能還要有一個背後可以直接查核的機制你同意嗎"},{"start":102.822,"end":128.742,"text":"當然要連結到茶盒機制的話那這相關的這一個其實公會都應該會很樂意協助啦如果按照現在的儀化的過程其實這些並不困難只是時間需要先建置一些聯繫的方式這些資訊怎麼樣pass過去才不會又有一些所謂的研業秘密啦沒錯現在其實採檢公會跟醫院他們有一個用"},{"start":129.701,"end":157.947,"text":"區塊鏈的技術把這些相關的資訊做一個連結那公會來協助政府部門或者是甚至現在醫院已經有這樣的系統我覺得衛福部可以在產品責任險還有這些相關的意外必須保的險強制上面找產險公會來做個平台這第一點第二點就是在食安問題發生之後其實最常見的是事前的通報或者是抽檢事中現在的處理接下去是事後的補償"},{"start":159.167,"end":167.207,"text":"那這個案子發生之後我們比較中間看到一個非常憂心的就是當時有新聞說家屬想要告"},{"start":168.044,"end":193.619,"text":"醫院這個事情造成了非常多的醫療院所非常的恐慌那我想大家一看到這個新聞也覺得非常的詫異對於家屬來說他當然會有他的主張但是對於我們所謂的集中症第一線的醫護人員還有醫院還有將來尤其這個案例非常特別他幾乎是沒有潛力所以要讓第一線的醫療人員能夠判斷出這是什麼樣的菌種"},{"start":194.383,"end":195.564,"text":"醫療糾紛讓很多的醫護人員不願意在第一線"},{"start":223.641,"end":250.089,"text":"因為醫病關係很對立第二個高風險的課別也造成了他們對於這個工作的熱情的減損所以我們現在看到現在是醫醫療事故預防跟爭議事件處理法這個部分已經通過那將來只有通過一個叫做先經過調解調解不成才能提告但是你覺得對於醫病關係有沒有辦法做到改善"},{"start":251.517,"end":278.812,"text":"應該會有幫忙這剛剛委員所提到這個所謂的醫癒法當然是今年就開始執行的那他還有一個前段的也就是說一發生這類的事件的時候那醫院會出面來跟這一個病方來做一個關懷部長我想討論一下就是賴清德總統他在2006年立委的任內其實也提過類似有點像"},{"start":281.079,"end":289.253,"text":"無過失補償的制度也就是說當醫院碰到類似的部分先不要去追究責任而是怎麼樣先讓家屬有一定的補償的機制"},{"start":290.549,"end":311.179,"text":"然後能夠減少所謂後面醫療糾紛的提告而且之前在2012年曾經也提過相關生育事故爭議的示範辦法而且後來也推出了手術跟麻醉事故的爭議事件示範辦法都有效的減少了所謂醫療的訴訟所以部長我們針對類似的狀況能夠保護醫療人員其實我們可能必須要考慮採取所謂的無國事補償的制度"},{"start":319.003,"end":339.8,"text":"這個部分可能也是衛福部將來要為我們醫療人員合作爭取這個範圍吳國思補償範圍除了剛剛委員所提到生產事故之外其他要擴張出去的話是非常有疑慮的其實醫界是反對是所以這個部分可能我的意思是說我們今天要假如今天發生類似"},{"start":340.38,"end":340.84,"text":"我們現在休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"150803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0ad4259d85e68077682ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a663ac7a6a43004f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:28:54 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因為這個航線的雅加達的航權目前是在法航手上 這部分我們再來跟他聯繫另外再20秒 這個"},{"start":405.714,"end":426.363,"text":"公路局台19甲縣岡山嘉峰嘉興段那個要拓寬那部分我請局長去了解重視一下另外台17縣湖內這個海山跟海浦段那也要拓寬這個有拓寬有相關的計畫要相關的程序我這個拓寬我不能立一個特別條例"},{"start":427.743,"end":427.763,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]}},{"id":"150802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0dbe8fdd8b7dc90eff7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a67e402dd021e2a3415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:24:55 - 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Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":512,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:33:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:24:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時25分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["林委員倩綺：主委你好。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：2011年我們在新北市有機會，雖然不是一起共事，可是一起推動公共事務。我記得您跟當時的朱市長說，你很高興在所有的局處裡面，他用了一個原住民在非原民的單位，所以你對他表示肯定，當時我也對你非常敬佩，一直到今天。對於原住民的事務，我們當然有這個責任讓它推動得更好，所以我今天的質詢有一些是問題、有一些是建議，我期待我們在一個理性的空間，讓原住民的事務，能夠因為我們有一些歷史上的轉變。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["林委員倩綺：能否請你用非常精簡的時間跟本席分享一下，在都會原住民的部分，會裡面現在最引以為豪，或者是認為做得很不錯的一些項目。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我覺得改變最大的是我們把過去長期視為違建的地方，不管在新北市、桃園、臺中，都已經把它變成一個永續家園，也謝謝大院這幾年來給我們預算的支持，可以做大幅的改變，這個是最大的改變之一。"],["林委員倩綺：是，本席也在這邊向原民會做個建議，這樣聽起來就是原住民在都會裡的空間過去被稱為非法，但是本席從來不用這個名詞，我們說如果是靠近河濱，就是河濱部落。因為合法或非法其實是一個法律概念，從文化的詮釋上是不一樣的，聽起來這些部落目前有了一些處理，但是本席期待，未來在都會原住民的部分，可不可以有更多都會原住民的空間，從這都會原住民的空間，來創造更多無形的價值，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：所以我們從今年開始推動族群主流化的公共空間，我們編了第一期10億元的預算，來處理都市的原住民族可以使用的公共空間。"],["林委員倩綺：那樣很好，如果有這樣一個預算，可不可以請貴會在一個禮拜之內跟本席報告一下，目前這樣的計畫是如何推動的，好嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，我們會提供書面資料。"],["林委員倩綺：因為本席目前也是住在都會，我大概只有在選舉的時候，會拿到貴黨候選人的一些文宣，所以很期待能夠了解，而且希望我們在都會原住民的部分，也能夠有更多的著力。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個部分是本席在3月22日院會質詢的時候，跟陳院長談到了關於長步道的議題，院長這邊也表示認同。所以我這邊有一些建議，我們有沒有可能在兩週之內，請會裡面聯合交通部觀光署跟林務局，這些可能跟步道資源有關的相關部會，我們來開個會。然後針對長步道的概念，我們來做部會內外的一些規劃，不知道這樣子可不可行？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以，我們等委員的通知，我們會全力來配合。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，這主要是一些非動力的路道，我們期待在部落的部分能夠比較安全，另外也讓健走的人能夠進入步道，自行車也是一樣。但是其中還有很重要的一點，就是部落的安全性，尤其像主委我們知道你是從玉里來的，你一定知道上金針山的那條路。我想大家現在都訓練的速度非常快，看到速度很快的車子大家就會閃躲，但那條路其實是非常危險的。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，很不理想。"],["林委員倩綺：所以步道的安全，跟步道內外非動力路徑的建置，我們期待這部分能夠一起促成。我這邊有個口號，可不可以請大會記錄一下，就是「活力台9線，原力台11線」，這應該是很重要的原住民空間，客委會已經提出浪漫台3線了，我們也應該在這個部分要有一些論述。尤其這部分都是我們居住的空間，所以我們在這個口號之下，來建置很好的長步道，讓大家行走好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，我想委員因為長期關心文化的議題，這個「活力台9線，原力台11線」我覺得滿有創意的。"],["林委員倩綺：我們就把這個名字定下來，宣告這樣一個空間文化權，好嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，我們來努力。"],["林委員倩綺：第三個我想跟主委請教一下，關於蔡總統所講的轉型正義，我想了解一下，這幾年原住民的部分我們做了些什麼？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我想用很短時間來說明可能很有限，簡單講就是我覺得最大的突破是，我們的語言已經是國家的語言，像今天我可以在立法院用我的族語來報告，在以前來講是不可能的。還有我們的民主教育，經過大院整個修法以後，我們的整個建構原住民族知識體系這個部分，讓我們未來朝向原住民學校這樣的方向，整個道路會慢慢往前進，我想這個部分是很重要的。","另外，我覺得這幾年部落族人最有感的是對長者的照顧，我們不管在都會地區、原鄉地區，我們的長者都有受到照顧，這是很有感的政策。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，您對這個部分引以為豪，本席提醒一下，其實本席參觀過人權博物館，還參觀過目前很多的博物館，我想請主委有機會注意一下台流這件事。其實在台流的推動當中，原住民經常在這些博物館是沒有位置的，比如說人權博物館，其實最主要是美麗島事件。雖然他是這樣一個場景，但是他把人權全部涵蓋進來，在轉型正義裡人權的部分，其實很多論述都沒有被列入台流，這部分是可不可以請主委現在注意？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：很謝謝委員的提醒，未來我們整個原博館興建的過程中，也請委員多給我們指教。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，最後本席提一個建議，本來在疫情期間，很多部會為了促進消費，都發送了很多相關計畫裡的某某券，當時我也很期待看到原民會，能夠有某一些這樣的作為。體育署發放了動滋券，文化部當時也發放了某些券，結果疫情過後，現在就變成發放文化幣，但文化幣的部分，也沒有把原住民地區給涵蓋進去。所以是不是請原民會思考一下，我們是不是也發個原民幣，或者至少在文化幣裡面，要有原住民的這一塊。每一次我們講台流，雖然講得很大聲，可是常常都忘記了這個土地的主人，我覺得這一點原民會要非常詳細，而且很仔細的去做一些觀察跟改進，好嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後還是用主委的一句話：「sa'icelen！」我們一起把原民的事務做好，好嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我也很高興委員在這裡質詢我，就如同我當議員的時候來質詢你一樣，非常有意義。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝林倩綺委員，謝謝夷將主委。","繼續請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.594718750000002,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":32.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.63346875,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.611593750000004,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.15971875,"end":41.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.471593750000004,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.77909375,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.71534375,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.329718750000005,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.66721875,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.835968750000006,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.03784375000001,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.68721875,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.77846875,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.75284375000001,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.48659375000001,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.38909375,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.08471875000001,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.41721875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.49721875,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.34909375000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.96471875,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.74909375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.78284375000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.43096875,"end":142.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.40096875,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.53596875,"end":144.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.06284375,"end":148.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.56471875,"end":148.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.06596875,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.92971875,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.96346875,"end":161.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.46971875,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.25346875000002,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.76346875000002,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.04596875000001,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.68096875,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.10284375,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.64159375,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.52971875,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.48221875000002,"end":224.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.23971875,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.58159375,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.99221875,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.50659375000004,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":324.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.53721875,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.72596875000005,"end":336.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.16846875000005,"end":335.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.44659375000003,"end":340.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.44596875,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.70284375,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.74034375,"end":349.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.35596875000005,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.77784375000005,"end":352.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.76909375,"end":356.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.07221875000005,"end":358.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.43909375000004,"end":360.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.25721875000005,"end":367.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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那很好 如果有這樣一個預算可不可以請貴會在一個禮拜之內跟本席報告一下目前這樣子一個計畫是如何推動的 好嗎因為本席目前是住在都會啦那我大概就只有在選舉的時候會拿到貴黨那個候選人的一些文宣所以很期待能夠了解而且希望我們在都會原住民的這個部分也能夠有更多的著力"},{"start":189.332,"end":209.76,"text":"本席在3月22號在院會質詢的時候跟陳院長談到了這個有關於長步道的這樣一個議題那院長這邊也表示認同所以我這邊有一些建議我們有沒有可能跟那個會裡面在兩週之內那是不是可以請會裡面聯合交通部還有觀光署"},{"start":210.62,"end":224.317,"text":"跟林務局這些可能跟這個步道資源有關的相關部會我們來開個會然後針對這個所謂長步道的概念我們來做部會內外的一些規劃不知道這樣子可不可行"},{"start":225.836,"end":251.561,"text":"可以 那我們等委員的通知那我們會請你來配合好的 那這主要是那個非動力的一些這個路道那我們期待在部落的這個部分能夠比較安全那另外也讓建走的人能夠進入到步道跟自行車也是一樣但是其中還有很重要一點就是這個部落的安全性那尤其像主委我們知道你是從玉里來的你一定知道上金針山的那條路"},{"start":252.401,"end":272.865,"text":"那那個我想大家現在都訓練的非常那個速度非常快看到很快很快的車子的速度大家就會閃躲但那條路其實是非常危險的所以步道的安全然後跟步道內外的一個非動力路徑的一個建置那我們期待這個部分能夠一起來把它促成"},{"start":273.405,"end":301.251,"text":"那我這邊有個口號可不可以請這個大會記錄一下就是活力台九縣然後原力台十一縣這個應該是很重要的原住民空間那個客家 客委會已經提出來這個浪漫台三縣了那我們應該在這個部分要有一些論述尤其是這個部分都是我們居住的空間所以我們在這個口號之下來建置"},{"start":302.051,"end":330.689,"text":"很好的這個長步道讓大家來行走好不好好我想委員因為長期關心文化的議題會把活力抬九線嚴厲抬十一這個我覺得蠻有創意的是是是那我們就把這個名字定下來就宣告這樣一個空間文化權好嗎我們來努力好那另外第三個我想跟主委這邊請教一下在蔡總統所講的這個轉型正義我想了解一下這幾年原住民的部分我們做了些什麼"},{"start":331.715,"end":349.565,"text":"我想用很短時間來說明可能很有限簡單講就是我覺得最大的突破是我們的語言也就是國家的語言像今天我可以在立法院用我的主義來報告在以前來講是不可能的那還有我們的民主教育"},{"start":351.302,"end":368.21,"text":"經過大宴的整個修法以後我們的整個建構原住民族知識體系這個部分讓我們未來朝向原住民學校這樣的方向的整個道路會慢慢往前進我想這部分是很重要的另外就是我覺得這幾年"},{"start":369.611,"end":371.813,"text":"本期這邊提醒一下其實本期參觀過那個人權博物館"},{"start":389.491,"end":410.676,"text":"那還參觀過目前很多的博物館那發現台流這件事情那想請這個主委有機會注意一下台流這件事其實在台流的一個推動當中原住民經常在這些博物館是沒有位子的比如說人權博物館其實最主要是美麗島事件雖然他是這樣一個場景但是他把人權全部涵蓋進來那我們"},{"start":412.896,"end":429.899,"text":"在轉型正義裡面人權這個部分其實很多論述都沒有在被列入台流所以是不是請這個部分主委現在可不可以很謝謝委員提醒到未來我們研播館的整個新一間的庫城當中也請委員多給我們指教"},{"start":431.297,"end":457.837,"text":"那最後本席提一個建議本來在疫情期間很多部會都為了促進消費發送了很多相關的計畫裡面的一些某某卷這樣子那當時我也很期待看到原民會能夠有某一些這樣子的作為所以在當時應該體育署現在體育署發放了動資卷那文化部當時也發放了某一些卷"},{"start":458.397,"end":470.446,"text":"結果疫情過後呢他就變成現在發放文化幣那文化幣的部分也沒有把原住民地區給涵蓋進去所以是不是請那個原民會來思考一下我們是不是發個"},{"start":471.858,"end":493.414,"text":"原民幣或者是至少在文化幣裡面要有原住民的這一塊所以每次講台流雖然講得很大聲可是常常都忘記了這個土地的主人那我覺得這一點原民會要非常詳細的而且很仔細的去做一些觀察跟改進好嗎好那最後還是用諸位一句話財政"},{"start":495.169,"end":505.281,"text":"我們一起把原民的事務做好,好嗎?我也很高興委員在這裡質詢我,就如同我當議員的時候來質詢你一樣,非常有意義。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0e852d15130444ae1f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:13:23 - 12:24:45","影片長度":"00:11:22","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":682,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:24:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:13:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":881,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時13分）謝謝主席，有請夷將主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。3月1日的時候我有在院會總質詢，那個時候我有提出一些要求，第一個，我希望部落公法人的法制化期程，原民會可以在1個月內說明。另外，針對原住民族學校、原專班和原住民族大學，我希望教育部和原民會要有上位的思考和規劃，也希望你們能夠在1個月內提出來，但是這些我都還沒有看到，你們什麼時候可以提出？如果不行的話，就儘快提出，希望可以到我的辦公室來討論一下。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我請2位處長簡單的跟委員做一個報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["楊處長正斌：跟委員報告，有關原住民族學校和原住民族大學、甚至是原專班的規劃，其實我們現在已經透過和國教院的合作，就是有關課程綱要發展計畫，這部分我們會在1個月內將相關的資料彙整給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再1個月就對了？"],["楊處長正斌：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。部落公法人法制化期程？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：部落公法人的部分，我們也會在1個月內提供給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。我當時也有針對禁伐補償的部分，再一次的請教院長和主委，其實這個問題我上一屆也有在總質詢問過，大家都很關心這部分的原因，不是因為原住民要把禁伐補償金的金額提高，實在是因為目前大家所關心的碳權、碳定價是未來的趨勢，雖然目前這部分沒有把原住民納入，但是我們會不斷的質詢，不管是環境部、農業部或財政部我都有去，我希望能夠促成把原住民納入這件事情，可是我們的造林補償，因為林務局、林保署那邊的獎輔造林已經要上路了，其實這個部分會牽動到禁伐補償金，現在禁伐補償金每年還維持在每公頃3萬元，這個部分應該要做一個衡平，所以我想要瞭解一下，院版什麼時候會提出來？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前還沒有做最後的共識，所以還沒有訂出提出的時程。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個已經很久了，院長也答應過2次了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是，我們會儘速把草案擬出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，還是要快一點，儘速到我的辦公室來跟我報告也沒有關係，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。今天謝謝召委把我們所關心的這些很重要的議題，列出了15個議題，其實這些議題我都很關心，但是礙於時間的關係，所以我沒有辦法每一題都問到，但是我在這邊還是會盡量的來請教和求教。","第一個部分，現在大家最關心的就是國土計畫，我在2個禮拜前也特別的在內政委員會詢問過，我當時要求國土署和原民會要趕快公告原住民土地管制規則，因為你們是合署公告嘛！我也知道你們已經來來回回4次了，我就說了，這個東西沒有出來，你們去部落辦理溝通說明會也是沒有用的，因為整個原住民都在傳，未來這個上路後會滅族，結果上個禮拜很謝謝你們，你們已經有舉辦第一場的土地使用規則說明會，你看，果不其然，辦完之後，聲音消滅很多，所以你們要儘量公開和透明。","但是我還是有幾個要求，就是這個表格，我希望各項功能分區是不是可以有容許的使用項目？你們要不要把它列清楚？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，這個部分的公告時間，我們一定會在國土計畫上路之前就公告這個規則。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原先是預定今年、113年1月。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實這個時間我已經覺得很慢了，我原先是希望去年配合部落溝通就要出來，但是你們已經訂了113年1月，那也沒有辦法，可是如果要等到明年4月前才會出來，哇！這樣子太慢了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不會到明年4月。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，我跟你說，我要提醒你們那個容許使用項目是因為，很多人會問國保一和國保二能不能經營小型露營場？農四能不能經營小吃店或零售店？甚至還有很多人會想說，這個功能分區我分在哪裡會不會對我未來的禁伐補償有所影響？我希望可以用更淺白的方式來把它盤點出來，讓我們的族人可以更清楚國土計畫和原住民土地使用規則對我們的影響。","我也要提醒，還有一個你們也要盤點，如果明年4月如期上路，大家不是都要開始跟縣市政府申請合法用地的使用執照和建照，可是主委，我要提醒，其實國軍有很多用地都有限建和限高的規定，到時如果他要蓋房子，他要去縣政府申請合法使用執照和建築執照，這些應該都會被拒絕，你們要去盤，像我知道的，有很多地方像春日、來義，他們光是受到戰備跑道炮擊所影響的範圍就有9個部落，我認為這9個部落到縣市政府應該都沒有辦法可以拿到所謂的建照等等這些，所以我希望是不是一個月內，還是麻煩原民會盤點一下，有哪些地方是我們遺漏掉的，因為這些族人其實對自身的權益不清楚、不瞭解，但是原民會作為我們的父母，一定要在我們前面就先掌握到好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外一個部分，我有看到業報說有9個公所在112年沒有提出汽燃費做的部落養護道路的補助，可以公布一下是哪9個嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個細節是不是我們請處長跟委員說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，九個部落包括去年的烏來都是都市計畫區、蘭嶼整個都是環島公路、魚池鄉因為部落範圍很小，所以沒有連絡道路。目前舉例是3個，會後會有9個，我們會把書面資料給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：處長，是這樣，我記得我在110年11月質詢的時候，像交通部還有後來的原民會，我都有提到，我說這筆錢得來不易啊！我是希望不要用計畫式的申請，我記得交通部長也好，原民會也好，你們都有答應。我說要召集所有的原鄉來開會，應該是按照公里數去做基準來分配，所以我今天看到這樣子就覺得有點驚訝，表示雖然在質詢台上答應我們，可是事後好像也不是這麼做。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，的確我們當初有請所有鄉鎮公所提出申請，我們並沒有排除，只是最後只有四十幾個鄉鎮提出來有這個經費需求，有些是沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想我們還是回復到有沒有找各鄉來？"],["劉處長維哲：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有，所以他們都沒有意見，用計畫提報方式？"],["劉處長維哲：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確定？"],["劉處長維哲：它沒有需求的都有公文回復給我們，所以我們最後盤點只有45個鄉鎮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實這筆錢得來不易，而且很重要，我不太能夠想像，為什麼會有鄉公所不需要。"],["劉處長維哲：因為我們補助的範圍就是部落連絡的公路系統，非屬編號道路，有些……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒關係，再給我一個報告好不好？"],["劉處長維哲：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。另外就是所謂的基本設施維持費，因為已經在112年度去做修正，很好，因為已經改成負面表列，只要不能用在什麼就可以，其他統統都可以。我知道有的鄉公所來跟我抱怨，去年加薪的百分之四，原本應該是要用公務預算來編列，可是卻要求他們用基本設施維持費去處理，以後都要這樣子嗎？因為其實那筆錢也不多，而且對鄉公所來講，這筆錢很好用，因為支用的範圍很廣，所以我想說這個部分沒關係，會後再做報告好了。","我在這邊也要請教一下食農教育的部分，因為我知道的是，我們很希望部落的文健站、學校，都能夠吃到在地的一些我們種的小米，或者是我們養的這些雞鴨，所以要去想辦法取得三章一Q。可是我知道的是，因為我們很多的地都是林地，所以根本沒有辦法取得三章一Q，還有發票、收據都很困難，所以我不曉得我們原民會了不了解，真的有很多人取得三章一Q嗎？他們這些農產品都可以進入到採購市場嗎？"],["宋處長麗茹：我們現在有兩百個團體，我們正在……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原住民的團體？"],["宋處長麗茹：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他們的東西都可以進入到採購市場？"],["宋處長麗茹：對，符合三章一Q……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：三章一Q，好，這個部分我是希望要再去輔導，有的是因為林地，真的沒有辦法取得，這個會限制我們的原青返鄉。我希望針對一些林下畜牧、林下友善的部分，還是要另外去做標章處理好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為時間的關係，還有很多問題要問，我後面再用書面，謝謝主席、謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，在這裡跟伍委員說明，也提醒一下主委，我4月15日就會排禁伐補償了，我們不等行政院版本。因為其實只有一條的修正，就是目前的3萬元，我們修訂增加為5萬元，所以也希望民進黨的委員能夠支持，我們希望在這個會期能夠三讀通過，好嗎？謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們最支持你。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝！","好，繼續我們請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.95409375,"end":8.215343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.72159375,"end":8.738468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.454718750000001,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.22034375,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.86284375,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":57.119093750000005,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":67.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.42971875,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.72909375,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.88471875,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":75.73221875,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.08659375,"end":76.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.22159375000001,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.61784375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.59596875000001,"end":84.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.32159375,"end":91.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.28284375000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":93.38346875,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.70409375000001,"end":93.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.72096875000001,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.46284375,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.28784375000001,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.82659375,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.23659375,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.39159375,"end":179.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.15909375,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.17596875,"end":179.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.73284375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.23909375000002,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.53846875000002,"end":181.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.60596875000002,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":185.58846875,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.50346875000002,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.03534375000004,"end":269.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.38096875,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.79409375,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.05534375,"end":277.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.47284375000004,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.27409375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.29909375,"end":282.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.59596875,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.41846875000005,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":426.20909375,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.64346875,"end":429.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.95534375000005,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.57971875000004,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":433.12784375,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.14471875000004,"end":433.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.16971875,"end":456.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.94096875,"end":441.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.76346875,"end":442.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.81409375000004,"end":443.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.70221875000004,"end":491.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.34221875000003,"end":500.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.12159375000005,"end":505.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":503.61471875,"end":504.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":504.98159375000006,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.86284375,"end":508.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.94721875000005,"end":512.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.63909375000003,"end":509.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.60909375,"end":520.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":513.0984687499999,"end":514.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":516.64221875,"end":516.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":519.9497187500001,"end":527.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.0847187500001,"end":520.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.8472187500001,"end":534.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":532.96034375,"end":586.0659687500001},{"speaker"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謝謝那在當時我其實也針對那個禁法補償的部分有再一次的請教院長跟主委因為其實我在上一屆"},{"start":111.42,"end":134.326,"text":"其實也有在總諮詢問過那這個部分大家都很關心的原因不是因為原住民要把淨法補償金提高而且實在是因為我們目前大家所關心的探權、探定價它其實在未來是一個趨勢而且目前雖然沒有把原住民加入但是我們會不斷的質詢"},{"start":135.726,"end":136.487,"text":"原住民發展條例立法"},{"start":151.676,"end":167.325,"text":"所以這個部分其實都會去牽動到我們大家對於淨法補償金每一年一公頃還在維持3萬元這個部分會去應該要去做一個橫評所以我就是想要了解一下院版什麼時候提出來"},{"start":169.344,"end":185.509,"text":"目前還沒有做最後的共識所以還沒有定出提出的事情很久了捏院長也答應兩次了捏對是那我們會那個儘速來把查案再領出來"},{"start":186.009,"end":209.592,"text":"還是要快點進速到辦公室跟我報告也沒有關係好不好好謝謝那今天謝謝趙偉他其實把我們很關心很重要的很多議題列出了15個議題那其實我也都覺得很關心但是礙於時間的關係所以沒有辦法每一題都問到但是我還是在這邊盡量的來請教求教一下"},{"start":210.733,"end":232.69,"text":"第一個部分現在大家最關心的就是國土計劃我自己在兩個禮拜前也特別有在內政委員會針對那時候國土署跟原民會我有要求國土署要趕快把原住民土地管制規則要給他公告因為你們是何屬公告我也知道你們被這樣子來來回回四次"},{"start":235.091,"end":261.763,"text":"這個東西沒有出來我就說你去辦那些部落溝通說明會是沒有用的整個我們的原住民都在傳未來上路會怎樣滅族結果上個禮拜很謝謝你們已經有辦了第一場的土地使用規則的說明會你看果不其然辦完了之後聲音消滅很多就是要盡量公開透明但是我還是有幾個要求就是這個表格我希望"},{"start":263.184,"end":269.809,"text":"這個各項的功能分區是不是有容許的使用項目要不要把它列清楚委員這個部分我們會"},{"start":273.84,"end":301.199,"text":"公告的時間我們設立在一定會在國土計畫上路之前就會公告這個規定原先預定是今年113年1月對其實都已經覺得很慢我原先之前是希望說在去年配合部落溝通卻要出來但是你們已經定113年1月那也沒辦法可是如果說要等到明年4月以前出來這樣子太慢了不會到明年4月"},{"start":302.44,"end":317.858,"text":"主委我跟您說我之所以覺得要提醒你們那個容許使用項目是因為很多人他其實還是會去問啊國保一國保二能不能經營小型露營場啊我在農事啊我能不能經營小吃店零售店啊那甚至是很多人會想說那"},{"start":319.619,"end":323.801,"text":"這個功能分區我分在哪裡會不會對我未來的進法補償會有影響我希望可以用更淺白的方式把它盤點出來讓我們的族人可以更清楚國土計畫跟原住民土地使用規則對我們的一個影響那我也要提醒有一個你們也要盤"},{"start":338.706,"end":358.631,"text":"像我們有很多如果明年4月如期上路不是大家都要開始可以去申請使用的合法的一個用地取得之後的申請建造實照嗎要跟縣市政府申請喔可是主委我要提醒其實我們有很多國軍的用地像是他會限建限高"},{"start":359.511,"end":383.369,"text":"那到時候呢他要去蓋房子他要去申請因為大家都知道我要去跟縣市政府申請合法的使用申請的使用執照建築執照喔這些應該都會被拒絕喔你們要去盤像我知道的是很多地方像那個春日來義光是受到那個戰備跑道的那個什麼砲擊的那個他影響的範圍就有9個部落喔"},{"start":385.991,"end":414.94,"text":"我是認為這九個部落到縣政府申請都會沒有辦法拿到我們所謂的上路的建造這些所以這個我就希望說是不是一個月內還是麻煩原民會談點一下有哪一些地方我們是遺漏掉的因為這一些族人他其實對自身的權益他不清楚不了解但是我覺得原民會作為我們的父母一定要在我們的前面就要先掌握到好不好那另外一個部分我有看到夜報"},{"start":416.98,"end":429.744,"text":"說有9個公所在112年沒有提出這個什麼棄燃費做的這個部落養護道路的這個補助啊可以公佈一下是哪9個嗎這個細節是不是我們請處長跟委員說明"},{"start":435.759,"end":453.854,"text":"報告委員大概9個部落主要包括去年的烏來像烏來它是都是都市計畫區像蘭嶼它整個都環島公路那像魚池鄉因為它部落範圍很小所以它沒有聯絡道路類似這樣子我目前舉13個那我們後面會後會有"},{"start":456.295,"end":470.201,"text":"主委長是這樣我記得我在110年11月的質詢的時候像交通部還有後來的原民會我都有提到呢我說這筆錢得來不易啊那我是希望說不要用計劃式的申請"},{"start":471.121,"end":491.427,"text":"我記得交通部長也好原民會也好你們都有答應我說要召集所有的原鄉來開會應該是按照他的公理數去做基準來分配所以我今天看到這樣子我就覺得有點驚訝表示說雖然在質詢台上這樣子答應我們可是好像事後也不是這麼做"},{"start":492.686,"end":507.864,"text":"報告委員的確我們當初請所有鄉鎮公所提出申請我們並沒有排除只是他申請的需求是最後只有只有40幾個鄉鎮他提出來說他有這個經費需求我想我們還是回復到就是有沒有找各鄉來有"},{"start":509.346,"end":527.561,"text":"有所以他們都沒有意見用計畫提報方式對確定他沒有需求都有公文回覆給我們所以說我們是最後我們盤點最後就有45個箱子其實這筆錢得來不易而且很重要我不太能夠想像說為什麼會有相公所會不需要"},{"start":528.041,"end":554.011,"text":"因為我們補助的範圍就是部落聯絡的公路系統那屬非屬編號道路沒關係那再給我一個報告好不好好謝謝那另外就是有提到這個所謂的基本設施維持費因為已經在112年度去做修正很好因為已經改成負面表列就是說只要不能用在什麼就可以其他通通都可以那我是知道說有的鄉公所有跟我抱怨"},{"start":554.731,"end":583.606,"text":"那時候去年加薪的那個4%原本應該是要用公務預算來編列可是卻要求他們用基本設施維持費去處理那以後都要這樣子嗎因為那個其實錢也不多而且對鄉公所來講這筆錢很好用因為它致用的範圍很廣所以我想說這個部分沒關係會後再做報告好了那我在這邊也要請教一下那個食農教育的部分"},{"start":584.386,"end":613.526,"text":"因為我知道的是我們很希望部落的文件站、學校都能夠吃到在地的這一些我們種的小米啊或者是我們養的這些雞鴨嘛那所以要去想辦法取得三張EQ可是我知道的是我們因為很多的地都是林地所以根本沒有辦法取得那個三張EQ啊還有發票啊、收據啊都很困難所以我不曉得說我們原民會了不了解"},{"start":614.286,"end":616.628,"text":"真的很多人取得三張EQ嗎?他們這些農產品都可以進入到採購市場嗎?我們現在有200個團體原住民的團體他們的東西都可以進入到採購市場三張EQ那我想這個部分我是希望要再去輔導"},{"start":637.702,"end":649.973,"text":"有的是因為林地真的沒有辦法取得這個會限制我們的原青返鄉我是希望說針對一些林下畜牧林下友善的部分還是要另外去做標章處理好不好因為時間的關係還有很多問題要問我後面再用書面來"},{"start":660.122,"end":667.185,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝主委謝謝吳立華委員的質詢在這裡跟吳委員說明也提醒一下主委我4月15號就會排進法補償了我們不等行政院版本因為其實只有一條的修正就是目前的3萬塊我們修訂增加為5萬塊所以也希望民進黨的委員能夠支持我們希望在這個會期裡面能夠讓他三讀同考"}]}},{"id":"150800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0c417bbb98774f78af7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a631a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:57:15 - 12:13:04","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":949,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:13:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:57:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時57分）謝謝，請夷將主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：主委好。剛才有委員提到你們有專刊是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你說專刊是例行業務嘛！但剛剛前一位發言的黃捷委員也稍微提到，我再補充一下。專刊雖然是例行要編輯、出刊的，但主委在封面上絕對不是例行性吧？印象中，我從來沒有看到夷將主委出現在原民會任何刊物封面上，有嗎？你會在專刊封面上嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：專刊沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：過去的主委中，哪一位曾刊在封面上嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有的專刊封面是沒有照片的，有照片的才是……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！我剛才看到你們有很多本嘛！要不要拿起來晃一下讓我看看？你們有很多本專刊封面上都沒有主委玉照，對不對？在我印象中，也都沒有看到夷將主委出現在任何專刊、像這麼大一張，而且上面還有很好的標題，叫作「傳奇原住民公務人員」。如果林江義主委得到這樣的封號，請問夷將主委，你要叫什麼？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：你應該沒有特別規劃要設計吧？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對於這個名稱，我們還沒有定案啦！"],["陳委員瑩：喔！還沒定案？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以還沒定案已經被拿出來施以鞭刑了喔？","當然也謝謝剛剛比較前面發言委員的關心跟指教啦！但是我想刮別人的鬍子之前先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨啦！如果真的要關心是不是好大喜功、是不是在作造神運動還是怎麼樣，這一本請前面發言的委員好好參考一下。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不過，委員，我再補充說明一下。我記得本會四年專刊的照片、我想起來了，我們是把很多小朋友唱原住民歌謠的照片作為封面，那些都是都市的原住民小朋友。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！但是絕對沒有這樣子的獨照，因為我沒有什麼印象。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們應該都是合照比較多。"],["陳委員瑩：如果有你的獨照，我會很注意看，但是沒有。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒關係，我不用獨照，我沒有要選舉，所以不用獨照。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！反正一直講這個很沒有營養，我們講一點比較有營養的事情，我要關心一下原保地遭到占用，然後判決確定這個事情。主委，依照目前的規定，原保地可以有條件的讓漢人租用，但是原保地遭占用，而且被提起訴訟的，通常都是有非常惡劣的使用行為，對於這樣的占用行為，我非常支持原民會訴諸法律，讓法院來做公正的判決。不過現在問題來了，經過法院長時間的訴訟審理，對於那些有惡劣占用行為，而且判決確定者，地方代表會卻杯葛公所，排除占用的預算，然後還凍結你們給公所的經費，我想請教一下主委，遇到這樣的問題你們應該要怎麼因應？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確，有一些代表會有做這樣的處理，但是我們會用調整補助的方式來做處理。"],["陳委員瑩：調整補助的方式？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就是執行的方式。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我們再看看要怎麼調。依照原開辦法第二條的規定，原保地的管理機關是原民會，但是執行機關是鄉鎮市公所，如果執行機關沒有依照這個辦法來排除占用的情況，我覺得你們應該要有一套機制，本席的手上就有2個陳情案件，其實這2件陳情案件法院已經判決確定，但是公所就是打死不執行排除占用。我說的這2個個案，你們除了要好好處理以外，同時，本席也要要求你們要建立一套機制，不可以當地方不依法行政的時候，你們卻拿他們完全沒有辦法。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，所以我們才會提出原住民保留地管理條例，當我們將辦法提升至法律的位階後，這些個案就不會再發生，但是很可惜這個條例去年沒有完成三讀。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我們還再繼續努力。主委，如果沒有原住民使用公有原保地，而且那些公有原保地也沒有公用用途的話，我們都應該要輔導原住民來取得所有權，這是原保地的精神，也是目前現行的規定，對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，4年前我有接到一個陳情案，有一塊很大的公有原保地，它使用的其中一部分還有很多原住民在使用。他從4年前就向公所申請公告分配，這塊土地不論是中央或是地方都沒有公共使用的任何規劃，只因為這個鄉鎮長的個人喜好，因為他就是不想分配，所以就讓這位申請人一直等，等到後來怎麼樣？一樣，今年年初他就往生去當天使了，所以我想要請教一下主委，依照現行的辦法，如果這位鄉鎮市長沒有違反規定，但是他們可以這樣子嗎？可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：個案的部分，我們要瞭解個案的狀況後才可以找出解決的方式。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我的辦公室接到這個陳情案，他申請公告分配土地，他是現況使用人，他和這塊土地也有使用的淵源，可是卻因為鄉鎮市長的個人喜好，因為他就是不想分配，通常遇到這個首長，都是他想要分配給誰，他就分配給誰，所以這就是很大的問題。我講的這個個案已經申請很多年，至少我的辦公室就持續的追蹤了4年，針對這樣的問題，主委，你認為應該要怎麼樣積極的來解決？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，以現行的法律授權，族人大概只能走行政救濟，如果有這個個案的話，請委員提供給我們，我們後續會來處理，要走行政救濟才可以處理。"],["陳委員瑩：因為已經過了4年，希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["陳委員瑩：目前管理原保地的是原民會土管處，他們編制的人力相當少，我們看一下這個表，雖然我們有補助縣市政府鄉鎮市公所聘用人力，但是地方政府聘用的人力經常都是鄉鎮市公所安插的人馬，他們不只是專業上有問題，有時候、甚至連態度上也不一定符合大家的期待，甚至還有經常被更換的情形，導致業務都沒有辦法可以順利的辦理。申請增劃編原保地的案件，動輒都需要好幾年才會完成，就連我們辦公室關切的案件，有時候起碼平均也要一年半到二年才能完成，加上公所承辦人又經常更換，所以原保地的業務遲遲無法順利，如果原民會土管處改為「土地管理署」，就可以像國產署一樣在各地設置直屬的人力，所需的人力經費，目前原民會土管處常態性的預算大概是1億元，為求原保地各項業務可以順利的運作和推展，成立土地管理署可能是最好的方式，而且這樣也不會影響到漢人的權利，那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小。","大家可以看一下這個表來比較一下，原民會管理的土地面積有26萬公頃；國產署23萬公頃；林務局150萬公頃，可是組織編制，原民會只有28人；林務局2,500人；國產署800人，你們1人抵千人用，所以平均下來，原民會1個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃，九千多、將近1萬公頃，相較於一樣都是管理土地面積二十幾萬公頃的國產署，人家有800人在管理，平均1個人大概是管理460公頃，所以這個部分是不是能夠在這個會期結束之前，你們是不是可以針對本席所提的建議來成立土管署？就是好好的算一下經費，包括你們補助給鄉鎮公所的，你們大概的算一下，然後好好的評估，計畫寫一寫，看這個方案到底可不可行？不然你看，我們今天第一次把這些數據全部都整理出來，大家一目了然嘛！主委？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，這個部分我們後續會來評估可行性。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。不好意思，召委，是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好？你請坐，先休息。","我請歐斯董事長，主委請先休息。"],["主席：請歐斯董事長。"],["陳委員瑩：最後這一題我問完後就結束，謝謝召委。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：歐斯董事長，原民台過去承辦過多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們的統計是10次。"],["陳委員瑩：10次？有這麼多？立委的公辦政見發表會？我們4年才選一次，是4次？還是10次？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：4次。"],["陳委員瑩：哦！嚇死我了，好，那時候你們都還沒有成立。來，每一次立委選舉，甚至是總統選舉，通常會有幾次的政見發表會？就是一般、正常、常態的公辦政見。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：公辦和自辦各有1次。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有啦！公辦的政見發表會大部分只有1次，你不要亂講，什麼叫通常、還有什麼的？為什麼這一屆原住民立委選舉原民台辦了2次？這樣合理嗎？你要不要說明一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：因為公辦是中央選舉委員會委託我們，但是為了服務族人，所以我們自辦1次，所以變成有2次"],["陳委員瑩：好，1次是中選會給你們原民台經費，委託你們辦理。第2次是你們要服務族人，那你們是自己辦？還是委外辦？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：應該是我們電視台自己辦。"],["陳委員瑩：你們是自辦？還是委外辦理？你講清楚哦！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我請執行長來說明。"],["何執行長明輝：報告委員，有關自辦的部分，部分我們是自己辦，但有一些部分因為我們沒有攝影棚，所以我們是租中視的攝影棚來用。"],["陳委員瑩：只有這個樣子？反正你們就是委外，因為有時候我們接到的電話也是你們委外的人打來的。我想是這樣子，因為原民台過去承辦過多次的立委選舉政見發表會，表示你們是有能力自己辦理的，而且現在通訊又很發達，你要服務族人可以透過網路或各種形式，也可以重播，不管是Line轉傳或是FB通通都可以。你說要服務族人，但是一樣的候選人、一樣的政見發表會，你們卻讓候選人疲於奔命，而且又花2次的錢來辦理2次，我覺得這個很奇妙，我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理？你們委外的程序是什麼？是公開招標？還是你們指定？"],["何執行長明輝：這個程序都是公開的，我們通常都是就地，因為我們是租用中視的場地，所以就近來進行會比較順利，程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！我知道程序上一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題，我也不是要去質疑什麼，我只是好奇，為什麼一個政見發表會要辦理2次？"],["主席：董事長，是不是私底下去跟陳瑩委員做一個說明和報告，好嗎？陳瑩委員，不好意思，因為時間已經給你滿多了。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！謝謝召委，我本來想說可以跟召委一樣把問題問完，因為我只關心3個問題。"],["主席：你問的是一樣的問題，他們也回答了。"],["陳委員瑩：一樣的問題？"],["主席：對啊！就是公開招標的問題，麻煩董事長和執行長。"],["陳委員瑩：不是公開招標的問題，是政見發表會為什麼要辦理2次？你沒有給我一個合理的解釋，你說要服務族人，但是我覺得這個理由很牽強，你們辦理的過程也很奇怪，就一定要……"],["主席：麻煩趕快跟陳瑩委員做一個說明，好不好？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們再跟委員說明。"],["陳委員瑩：這個問題我下次還是會繼續再問，直到你們講出合理的理由，怎麼樣做都是服務族人，我覺得很奇怪，那你下次會不會舉辦3次、4次、5次？要服務族人要不要辦個5次更好？對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，謝謝董事長和執行長，你趕快到陳瑩委員的辦公室跟他說明一下，謝謝。","繼續請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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因為已經過了4年那也就希望主委可以用力的幫幫忙那目前這個管理原保地的這個是原民會圖管處那真正編制的人力相當少"},{"start":470.62,"end":495.481,"text":"我們看一下這個表雖然這個補助縣市政府、鄉鎮、市公所的聘用人力但是這個地方政府的聘用人力經常都是鄉鎮、市公所安插的人馬不只是在專業上有問題有時候甚至這個態度上可能也不一定會符合大家的期待甚至還有經常被更換的情形導致業務都沒有辦法順利的辦理"},{"start":496.602,"end":519.282,"text":"申請增化編原保地的案件動輒都需要好幾年才會完成嗎?那就連說我們辦公室關切的案件有時候也都起碼平均要到一年半到兩年才能完成加上公所承辦人又經常更換所以原保地的業務就遲遲無法順利那如果原民會土管處改為土地管理署"},{"start":519.742,"end":538.732,"text":"可以向國產署在各地有設置這個直屬的人力那人力在所需的經費上目前原民會圖管處的經費在差不多就是你們目前常態性預算大概一億元那就是說如果"},{"start":540.113,"end":567.204,"text":"為求這個原保地各項業務可以順利的運作跟推展成立土管署土地管理署可能是最好的方式而且這樣也不會去影響漢人的權利那漢人立委的反對力道應該就會比較小那質詢在大家可以看一下看一下就是我們這個表就是比較一下"},{"start":568.888,"end":571.05,"text":"比較一下你們看這個園民會園民會"},{"start":574.929,"end":600.647,"text":"你們管理的土地面積有26萬公頃那國產署有23萬公頃那林務局150萬公頃可是那個組織的編制原民會就28人嘛林務局2500人然後國產署800人哇你們這個一人抵千人用所以平均下來看一下原民會就是一個人平均要管理將近1萬公頃"},{"start":602.668,"end":603.249,"text":"原住民發展條例立法會期"},{"start":621.67,"end":647.724,"text":"結束之前你們是不是就針對本席提的建議成立這個圖管署來就是好好算一下經費包括你們補助給這個鄉鎮公所的你們大概算一下然後來好好評估計劃寫一寫看看到底可不可行不然你看今天第一次把這個數據全部這樣子整理出來大家一目了然嗎來主委"},{"start":648.663,"end":665.041,"text":"好這個部分我們來做後續的評估可行性好謝謝那個不好意思那個招委是不是容許我再多問一個問題就好了阿您請坐先休息齁好那個我請那個歐斯董事長請什麼董事長"},{"start":669.548,"end":673.31,"text":"歐斯董事長原民台過去承辦多少次的原住民立委選舉公辦政見發表會我們的統計是報告有10次"},{"start":689.306,"end":689.666,"text":"公辦政見"},{"start":717.13,"end":719.011,"text":"中央選舉委員會委託我們為了要達到服務主任"},{"start":747.409,"end":773.755,"text":"自辦一次一次就是中選會給你們原民台經費委託給你們辦理那第二次你們要服務族人那你們是自己辦還是委外辦我們自己電視台辦你們是自辦還是委外辦理你講清楚喔我請執行長再做個"},{"start":776.75,"end":792.477,"text":"有關自辦的部分是部分我們自己辦但是有一些部分像因為那個攝影棚我們沒有攝影棚所以我們是租中式的那個攝影棚只有這個樣子反正就是也是委外嘛因為我們接到有時候接到一些電話也是你們委外的人啊"},{"start":793.517,"end":813.849,"text":"所以我想是這樣子啦因為原民台你們過去承辦多次的這個立委選舉的政見發表會表示你們是有能力自己辦理的而且呢現在通訊什麼都很發達那你也可以要服務族人你也可以透過網路可以透過很多的形式那也可以重播"},{"start":815.55,"end":833.561,"text":"不管是LINE轉傳還是這個FB通通都可以那你說要服務族人但是一樣的這個候選人一樣的政見發表會但是你們讓這個候選人也疲於奔命然後花了兩次的錢辦理了兩次"},{"start":836.102,"end":853.116,"text":"所以我覺得這個也是一個很奇妙就是說我不知道你們為什麼要這樣子處理那你這個招標的你們這個委外的程序是什麼是你們公開招標還是你們去指定"},{"start":855.711,"end":867.145,"text":"這個程序我們都是公開的但是我們因為我們都通常都是就地因為我們是租中式的場地那就近會比較進行會比較順利所以我們在程序上我們都是按照政府採購法來進行"},{"start":869.105,"end":889.887,"text":"對阿我想程序上一定一定一定會把它弄到沒有什麼問題我也不是說去質疑什麼只是覺得好奇就是說為什麼一個政見發表會要去辦要去辦理兩次那我也是 董事長是不是私底下去跟陳映委員做個說明跟報告好嗎陳映委員不好意思因為時間已經給您"},{"start":892.209,"end":915.102,"text":"對啦 謝謝昭緯啦我本來想說可以跟昭緯一樣把問題問完這樣子啦因為我只關心你問的問題是一樣的問題他們也回答你一樣的問題對啊 就是那個公開招標的問題沒有人 不是公開招標是政見發表會為什麼要兩次沒有給我一個合理的解釋你說要服務族人但是我覺得這個理由也是很牽強嘛"},{"start":916.94,"end":939.162,"text":"阿你們這個辦理的過程也是很奇怪阿就一定要麻煩去跟陳映委員趕快做一個說明好不好因為我下次還是會繼續再問阿你們知道你們講出一個很合理的理由嘛怎麼樣做都是服務族人我覺得很奇怪那你下次會不會有三次還是四次五次要服務族人要不要辦個五次更好"},{"start":940.442,"end":941.043,"text":"謝謝陳營委員的質詢謝謝董事長、執行長"}]}},{"id":"150799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c067c17c94667982f3f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a687405cc7a6e4ec875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:43:42 - 11:53:32","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":590,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:53:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:43:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":732,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時43分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。剛剛有一位委員提到你們辦這項專刊……原民會有這項專刊嘛！是不是例行公事？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們從原民會成立以來，都持續作這樣的事，重點是怎麼樣讓族人知道原民會推動的成果與進度。"],["黃委員捷：所以這項專刊不是為了你個人而辦嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：當然不是。"],["黃委員捷：是嘛！剛才有委員其實提到什麼主委好大喜功、覺得你是為了個人而辦，但我必須講，這確實是例行公事。其實過去我也曾看到、而且我手上有這本喔！請問這是什麼時期的專刊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這本是前主委林江義時代的專刊。"],["黃委員捷：是的，這是前主委時代的專刊。在這份專刊裡，我甚至看到他把他個人的照片放在上面，如果真的要這樣講，是不是這樣才叫好大喜功？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：其實裡面的內容都是在鼓勵原住民公務員怎麼樣像他一樣、這樣努力，所以是有功能在其中啦！"],["黃委員捷：當然啦！我覺得這項專刊應該要辦，也支持你們繼續用專刊讓大家了解更多原民事務。如果真的要說這項專刊就是好大喜功的話，我認為主委把自己的照片放上去，這樣才叫作好大喜功。","再來談今天的重點。第一，我想請教主委原民補辦增劃編的事。對於原民的土地正義，我相信是非常多人都非常關心的，其實這些歷史不正義的事情已經討論很久、很久了，也在非常多人的努力之下逐步有了一些成果。可是原民增擴編現在還是有一些法令上的問題，例如在上一屆，政院其實有把原民的土地使用條例送進來，但是因為屆期不連續的關係沒有辦法繼續審。我希望藉著這個機會跟主委請教一下，我們這一屆有沒有機會繼續把這項條例通過呢？可不可以請主委講一下你們目前的進度以及預期這一屆有沒有機會再審查？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：關於委員的指教，原住民族保留地管理利用條例去年送大院，也已經送出委員會，很可惜政黨協商的時候沒有完成。我們是希望能夠最完備地處理原住民保留地的問題，比部分條文修正更能保障原住民的土地權利。"],["黃委員捷：好，對於原民保留地的管理利用條例，我當然也很希望這一屆可以繼續審查，為什麼呢？我舉一個例子就好了，我過去在臺大的時候修過一門課，叫作「森多概」，「森多概」就是森林多樣性的概論。都去哪裡考察呢？都是去臺大的山地實驗農林、農場，包括梅峰、春陽、翠峰這些農場，目前都還是由臺大管理的公有土地，對嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["黃委員捷：其實這個案子過去發過一件事，主委知不知道過去有一些族人跟臺大之間有一些法律上的糾紛？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：知道。"],["黃委員捷：這個案子是這樣，2018年的時候，臺大組成一個原住民土地正義的倡議跟調查小組，當時因為這些由臺大管理的公有土地其實有很大一部分都還是原住民族的傳統領域，是有族人在當地居住與耕作的，這些都是事實，可是基於歷史的緣故，因為日本政府的掠奪、透過一些不正義的手段交給當時的臺北帝國大學使用，後來臺大輾轉承襲這些土地，族人的土地就被迫流失了。2014年梅峰農場有一個族人想透過補辦增劃編的方式把他的原住民保留地取回，希望自己可以在那邊長期居住這塊他使用的土地，結果臺大反對，然後還告他，要求他拆屋還地！有這樣的事情嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確有這樣的案例，但是我們這幾年把相關案例整體檢討以後，也把原住民的土地問題逐步作了解決。最具體的例子是花蓮萬隆林田山這個園區，當地原來是原住民的保留地，後來變成國有地，現在又變回保留地。未來針對林田山，我們會跟林務局、也跟當地原住民共管林田山這處園區。"],["黃委員捷：是，我就是要在這裡要求原民會堅守立場啦！針對原民的保留地，不管是增辦還是擴辦，對於這些土地，我都希望你們儘量協助族人，可以讓他們順利。像臺大這種公有土地的管理機關之所以會刁難，當然是因為臺大是全臺灣最大的學校，很多山地目前都還在他們的管轄範圍裡面。他們基於機關本位立場，當然都希望可以繼續保有這些土地、不願意釋出，這時候你們的角色就非常、非常重要。因為他們如果不同意、也在複審時不斷刁難，會導致這些案件在送原民會審查的時候，對你們來說也沒辦法順利讓他們把這些土地還給這些族人。","我比較想知道的是，現在這些公有地的管理機關都還有同意權，是這樣嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["黃委員捷：所以他們都還是有一定的決定權？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["黃委員捷：我覺得這就是接下來可以討論的，也就是他們的同意權到底是只可以提供意見，還是他們的意見也代表某種程度的決定？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這部分遇到爭議的時候，我們都會用協調的方式解決，所以也不是完全沒有案例可以解決類似問題。所以針對剛剛委員提到臺大農場的部分，雖然身為臺大畢業的學生，但我也覺得對於整體土地轉型正義這部分，應該很誠懇地面對。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：包括剛才提到布農族返還遺骨的部分，也都是我們必須面對的轉型正義問題。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。當然我的立場也跟你一樣啦！雖然我們都是臺大的畢業生，但我也不認為臺大應該這樣繼續在土地不正義的情況下占有這些土地，而是應該透過協助族人、朝還給他們土地的方式進行。當然最後我也希望原住民族的保留地管理利用條例可以在這個會期順利審查。","還有一點時間，我請教一下原民會對於身分證單列族名的看法，其實在今年1月有7個成功案例，他們勝訴了。他們勝訴當然帶來很好的消息，就是讓大家知道單列族名是可以的，可惜現在內政部還不願意放行，不知道現在原民會的看法，以及接下來有無打算如何處理？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，對於這個問題，剛好我們上禮拜在行政院與內政部已經達成一項協商，在姓名條例還沒有修法之前，我們現正研擬一項解釋函，意思就是既然法院已經作出這樣的判決，我們就應該開放，讓原住民可以單列族名，用他們自己的書寫系統恢復傳統名字，這部份我們會很快地與內政部協商函頒。"],["黃委員捷：所以會在最近就把你們修正過後的姓名條例……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們先用函頒的方式，是解釋令。"],["黃委員捷：喔！解釋令。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：先用解釋令，因為修法要花一段時間。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：等姓名條例修完，可能要好幾年後。"],["黃委員捷：所以你們會請內政部發出函釋，承認這件事情？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們已經獲得行政院的指示，希望我們與內政部一起、共同面對這個問題。"],["黃委員捷：好。有機會在今年把單列族名的函釋給發出來、讓這件事情被承認嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們在速度上會儘快把它完成。"],["黃委員捷：好，感謝主委的承諾。我也希望看看可不可以今年就讓這件事情成形，因為今年這7個勝訴的例子確實讓人滿鼓舞的。我也不希望行政機關只能讓這些族人痴痴地等待，導致每個人都要透過行政訴訟方式爭取，而是可以統一作出解釋，好嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，我們就函釋令與內政部達成共識的時候，我也會很快地到戶政事務所單列我的名字。"],["黃委員捷：好，太棒了！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這樣我的名字就會比較短一點，原本要寫兩個姓名。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委，也期待函釋令下來，主委到時候也可以改名成功。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：會！我一定會改的。"],["黃委員捷：好。謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員質詢，也謝謝夷將主委。","現在處理臨時提案。總共有5案，請宣讀（參閱附錄）。","一、","有鑑全台各部落殯葬公墓用地需求，爰請原住民族委員會於本院第十一屆第二會期開議前，全面盤點、檢討全台各部落殯葬需求與公墓用地，協調政府相關單位爭取撥用公有地為公墓用地、修正目的事業主管機關相關法規，以應各部落殯葬之需，並於下會期開議前向內政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　黃建賓　　張智倫　　高金素梅","二、","有鑑全台各部落用水需求，爰請原民會協調經濟部會同該會於本院第十一屆第二會期開議前，徹底盤點全台無法供應自來水的部落、用戶數及問題所在，提出限期解決方案，如：合議共同管理機制、修建簡易自來水設施及農業用水、申請登記水權用地、積極尋覓產學研合作尋求其他儲水設施的可能及循環型農園等，並於本院下會期開議前向內政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　黃建賓　　高金素梅　張智倫"],["項目：三、","請原民會會同教育部落實食農教育與農事體驗結合，並融入鄉內國中小學校訂課程，增進部落孩子們跨領域能力，培養農事耕作及管理能力，並對偏鄉部落央廚衛生安全與品質，特予注意，於本院下會期開議前向內政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：徐欣瑩  黃建賓  張智倫  高金素梅"],["項目：四、","為促進原住民部落農業改革，實踐「與山為伍，以山為師」敬山精神，緊扣「三生」資源永續平衡發展，以達人與自然環境和諧共存為目標。請原民會於下會期開議前完成下列具體落實方案並向內政委員會提出書面報告。","1.盤點各部落特色DNA，結合在地精神及青年文創，透過有效的部落營造彰顯其價值。同時，建構前後山產業心臟地帶，均衡發展以強化鄉內產業鏈結。","2.拓展友善耕作面積，積極爭取農業資材、各類機具等補助，分擔農業生產成本，並於各部落進行生態復育，致力於永續精品農業。","提案人：徐欣瑩  黃建賓  張智倫  高金素梅"],["項目：五、","為落實部落整體發展與基本生活權益，請原民會會同目的事業主管機關於下會期開議前全面盤點各部落醫療資源、無障礙通行、治安等需求，於下會期開議前完成具體落實方案（如說明），並向內政委員會提出書面報告。","說明：","1.打造適合部落「有愛，無礙」友善環境，通盤檢視並完善全鄉公共區域無障礙設施，強化身障者家庭及社區生活支持。","2.依各部落需求成立部落巡守隊，定時巡視部落以加強部落治安。","3.積極爭取產官學研及民間跨域協力夥伴合作，應用科技補足原鄉醫療照護資源之窘境，發展符合在地文化之創新健康照護模式。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　黃建賓　　張智倫　　高金素梅"],["主席：因為部會已經同意修正一些文字，所以5案照案通過。"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","繼續請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.50659375,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.49534375,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.299718750000004,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.31659375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.79284375,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.96159375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.423468750000005,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.03471875,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.51034375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.67846875000001,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.31971875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.15471875,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.47846875,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.60284375,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.96784375000001,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.72659375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.27471875,"end":170.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.92409375,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.27284375000002,"end":207.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.16721875000002,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.00909375,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.13971875000001,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.23596875000004,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.35721875,"end":289.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.77471875000003,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.13659375000003,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.03096875,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.30471875,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.09784375000004,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.93721875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.21471875000003,"end":312.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.04534375000003,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.90971875,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.94346875,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.33034375,"end":379.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.24159375000005,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.44784375,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.25784375,"end":394.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.80034375,"end":403.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.86659375000005,"end":404.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.60909375,"end":407.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.98409375,"end":409.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.90784375000004,"end":412.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.67534375,"end":414.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.86909375000005,"end":416.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.94471875000005,"end":420.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.02846875,"end":421.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.27721875000003,"end":423.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.20096875,"end":427.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.79534375000003,"end":428.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.24659375000005,"end":429.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.28034375000004,"end":478.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.55096875000004,"end":483.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.00596875,"end":487.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.63409375000003,"end":491.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.15659375,"end":492.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.11409375000005,"end":498.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.41721875,"end":500.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.08784375000005,"end":501.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.75846875,"end":503.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.08721875000003,"end":506.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.65221875000003,"end":509.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.53784375000004,"end":509.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.60534375000003,"end":515.089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因為剛剛其實有提到說說什麼主委號大喜功覺得你是為了個人而辦我必須要講這個確實是例行的公事然後過去其實我有看到我是手上有這一本請問這個是什麼時期的專刊"},{"start":53.782,"end":78.883,"text":"這本就是前主委林江一時代的專刊是的這個是前主委的時候時代的專刊那這個專刊我甚至看到他把他個人的照片放在上面那如果真的要這樣講是不是這個才叫做好大喜功他其實他裡面的內容都是在鼓勵原住民的公務員怎麼樣像他一樣這樣努力所以是有他的功能在裡面"},{"start":79.7,"end":95.308,"text":"當然啦我們覺得這個專刊應該要辦也想也支持你們繼續用專刊讓大家來瞭解我們更多原民的事物但是如果真的要說這個專刊就是浩大喜功的話我認為把這個照片主委自己的照片放上去這個才叫做浩大喜功"},{"start":95.908,"end":111.118,"text":"好再來講一下今天的重點喔第一個我想要請教一下主委這個原民不辦真話編的事情因為原民的土地正義我相信是非常多人都非常關心的那其實啊這些歷史不正義的事情已經討論很久很久了"},{"start":111.238,"end":130.239,"text":"那也在非常多人的努力之下逐步有了一些成果那可是因為現在這個原民的增擴邊現在還是有一些就是法令上的問題就例如說其實在上一屆我們鎮院其實有把這個原民的土地的使用條例送進來但是因為屆期不連續的關係沒有辦法繼續審"},{"start":132.802,"end":145.407,"text":"那我就希望藉這個機會來跟主委請教一下我們這一屆有沒有機會繼續把這個條例來通過呢可不可以請主委講一下你們現在目前的進度以及你們預期這一屆有沒有機會再來審查"},{"start":147.659,"end":170.388,"text":"對,那個委員的質詢是我們原住民族保留地管理利用條例去年也送大宴是那因為沒有,已經送出委員會﹐沒錯政黨協商來說沒有完成是我們希望這個部分是最完備來處理原住民保留地的問題是比那個部分條文修正更能夠保障原住民的這個土地潛力"},{"start":171.001,"end":188.041,"text":"好那我在這邊當然也是希望這個原民的保留地的管理利用條例我也是很希望這一屆可以繼續來審查是為什麼呢因為其實我舉一個例子就好了因為其實我過去在台大的時候其實都有收過一門課叫做森多蓋"},{"start":189.342,"end":206.067,"text":"這個森多概就是森林多樣性的概論他都去哪裡考察呢?都是去我們台大的山地的實驗農林農場那包括梅峰、春陽、翠峰農場這些現在是目前都還是由台大來管理的公有土地對嗎?對"},{"start":208.203,"end":237.225,"text":"那在這個其實這個案子裡面過去有發生過一件事情不知道族委知不知道有過去有一些族人也有跟台大之間有一些法律上的糾紛知道那這個案子當然是這樣因為其實2018年的時候台大有組成一個原住民土地正義的倡議跟調查小組那當時是因為呢就是我們還是希望說這些台大目前管的這些公有土地裡面其實有很大一部分"},{"start":237.645,"end":260.511,"text":"都還是原住民族的傳統領域然後是有族人在那邊居住跟耕作的這個都是事實那可是因為歷史的緣故當初因為日本政府的掠奪然後透過一些不正義的手段交給臺北帝國大學當時的臺北帝國大學使用那後來輾轉了臺大就把它承襲了這一些土地那族人的土地就被迫流失了"},{"start":260.911,"end":280.129,"text":"那在2014年的時候有一個在梅峰農場那時候有一個族人也想要透過這個補辦增化邊的方式來把他的原住民保留地來取回希望自己可以在那邊長期居住這個使用的土地結果臺大反對然後還告他要求他拆屋還地有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":281.997,"end":299.208,"text":"的確有這樣的案例但是委員我們這幾年也有把相關的案例做一個整個檢討以後也把原住民的土地也逐步做一個解決最具體的例子是在花蓮萬隆有一個林田山的這個園區"},{"start":304.263,"end":316.159,"text":"原來是原住民的保留地後來變成國有地現在又變回為保留地未來林田山會跟林務局跟當地的族人一起來共管林田山的園區"},{"start":318.441,"end":337.318,"text":"這就是希望我在這裡要要求我們原民會要堅守立場啦盡量都把這個原民的保留地可以在他們在這些不管是增辦還是擴辦的這些的土地在你們協助這些族人的過程當中都可以讓他們順利因為像這種臺大的公有土地的管理機關他們之所以會刁難當然他們就覺得"},{"start":340.22,"end":358.849,"text":"其實因為臺大是全臺灣最大的學校所以有很多的山地都目前都還是在他們的管轄範圍裡面那他們基於他們機關本位的立場都會希望說可以繼續保有這些土地然後不願意釋出所以這時候你們的角色就非常非常重要就是他們如果"},{"start":359.449,"end":378.134,"text":"不同意然後也在複審的時候不斷的刁難那導致這些案件在送原民會審查的時候對你們來說也沒有辦法順利的去讓他們還給這些族人那我比較想要知道的是說現在因為其實這些公有的管理機關他們都還是有同意權是這樣子嗎對所以他們都還是有一定的決定權是"},{"start":384.301,"end":411.502,"text":"那我覺得這就是接下來可以討論的就是他們的這個同意權到底是只不是只有可以提供意見還是他們的意見也代表某種程度的決定這個部分遇到爭議的時候我們都會用協調的方式來做解決所以也不是完全沒有案例可以來去解決類似的問題所以剛剛委員提到那個臺大農場的部分我雖然是身為臺大"},{"start":413.011,"end":427.072,"text":"畢業的學生我覺得這個土地的整個轉型正義的部分我們應該要很誠懇去面對沒錯包括像剛剛那個布農族的返還遺骨的部分都是我們一起要面對的這個轉型正義的問題"},{"start":429.295,"end":436.062,"text":"好 謝謝主委那當然我的立場也跟你一樣啦雖然我們都是臺大的畢業生但我也不認為說臺大應該要這樣繼續在土地不正義的情況下繼續的佔有這些土地而是應該要透過這個"},{"start":444.711,"end":464.888,"text":"協助族人還給他們土地的方式來進行那當然最後我也希望說這個原住民族的保留地管理利用條例可以在這個會期有順利的審查那還有一點時間我來請教一下我們原民會對於身份證單列族名的看法因為其實在今年1月的時候有7個成功的案例他們勝訴了"},{"start":466.169,"end":492.703,"text":"那他們迅速當然是帶來一個很好的消息就是讓大家知道說我們單列族民是可以的可惜現在內政部還不願意放行不知道說我們現在原民會的看法以及接下來有打算如何處理你這個問題剛好我們在上禮拜在行政院跟我們的內政部已經達成一個協商在姓名條例還沒有修法之前我們現在正在研擬一個解釋函"},{"start":494.141,"end":501.071,"text":"意思就是說既然法院已經做出這樣的判決我們應該開放讓原住民可以單列用"},{"start":502.209,"end":524.348,"text":"他們自己的書寫系統來恢復傳統名字這部分我們很快的跟內政部做一個協商就做一個函班所以會在最近就把你們修正過後的姓名條例我們先用函班的方式解釋令因為修法要花一段時間等姓名條例修完可能"},{"start":524.548,"end":544.976,"text":"所以你們會請內政部發一個函式來承認這件事情我們已經獲得行政院的指示希望我們跟內政部一起來共同面對這個問題好那有機會就是在今年把這個單列族名的函式給發出來然後讓這件事情是被承認的嗎我們會用盡快的速度把它完成"},{"start":545.872,"end":564.578,"text":"感謝主委的承諾那我也希望看可不可以今年就讓這件事情成行因為今年的這個七個勝訴的例子確實是讓人蠻鼓舞的那我也不希望說我們行政機關只能讓這些族人痴痴的等待說每個人都要去透過行政訴訟的方式而是我們可以統一的來做一個解釋好嗎"},{"start":565.478,"end":587.889,"text":"跟委員報告如果韓市令我們跟內政部達成共識的時候呢我也會很快的到副政事務所用關列我的名字我的名字就會比較短一點了不用寫兩個姓名好謝謝主委也期待說這個韓市令下來然後主委到時候也可以改名成功會我一定會改的好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝黃姐委員的質詢謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08dcc05121230916cee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a609846c1f907d8ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:26:35 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tart":152.535,"end":179.797,"text":"社宅租金第一年才有辦法完成政策目標租金可是租金第一年當然影響自償率影響自償率的時候就會影響這個公共投資用促餐的方式來投資的這樣子的一個意願所以就變成說最後常常是什麼附屬單位比主體單位還大然後衍生出一大堆的糾紛這本席完全理解所以說我們討論一下促餐以外的方式也就是剛剛花次長講的發行債券的這個部分我覺得這部分非常有興趣因為現在ESG其實是顯學嘛對不對我們不要講什麼台灣價值啦"},{"start":180.638,"end":181.439,"text":"現在都還沒有齁 因為都還在"},{"start":198.058,"end":198.278,"text":"當時會有一個相對明確的時間表"},{"start":219.001,"end":241.864,"text":"欸現在我現在也沒辦法明確的回答但是我們會跟今晚會跟財政部再來研究一下好啦這個本期是希望要既然要談這樣的事情我們就希望都排了報告我們其實是希望明確的嘛因為這個是有助於這個政策推動的嘛這我想喔用新的方式來推動這個進度有兩個本期最後一點時間做一個政策建議除了政府去發行社會責任債券或永續發展債券然後導引"},{"start":242.604,"end":258.31,"text":"這個民間企業透過購買債券的方式然後他們買到的ESG的價值相對來講政府財政負債能夠下降這方式我完全贊同所以我希望趕快做但第二件事情這我給次長做一下政策建議也就是說我們針對民間企業的方面我們應該要設計一套這國發會也可以聽一下設計一套獎勵機制我舉一個正面典型"},{"start":261.391,"end":285.665,"text":"本期的選區龜山,台樹集團在龜山有非常多的土地人家在長庚醫院興建的時候他就有一個長庚醫護新村是他們的員工宿舍也就是我政府自己花錢去興建解決這個員工住宿的問題只要你在他的這個企業上班相對來講你就享有便宜的租金他一方面提供了很好的員工福利一方面也解決了居住的問題還降低了城市的環境負擔這種模式其實應該被大家鼓勵"},{"start":286.405,"end":303.035,"text":"但我們現在看到政府除了你政府有自主性的做這件事我們說啊正面典型拍拍手可是我們的政府有沒有從這中間的一個過程去做借鏡然後比如說我用政策手段不管是獎勵性的手段或者是強迫性義務性的手段去要求其他的民間企業比照辦理目前有沒有這樣的規劃或打算"},{"start":305.049,"end":319.118,"text":"我們住宅法有獎勵民間新辦社會住宅的條文那我們現在正在重新檢討怎麼樣讓它比較能夠可行落實本期的建議就是說跟企業下手因為很多企業要投資比如台積電要來設廠"},{"start":320.76,"end":347.103,"text":"你是不是可以通過都市計畫等等的手段去要求說我要有員工宿舍的配套這就是用政策的方式去建立這個事情一次就解決所有的問題所以本期希望除了你加緊速度去發行你的永續發展債券之外也要同步使用政策的工具鼓勵民間企業去興辦員工宿舍就用這樣的方式既符合了員工的福利又解決了居住的問題我想這是非常具有ESG精神的一個做法"},{"start":347.543,"end":357.453,"text":"這我希望內政部可以今天沒有時間表我本心是有點遺憾啦我希望喔下一次再大家追蹤這個問題的時候可以更明確可以嗎好謝謝委員好各位辛苦了謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的諮詢緊接我們林楚英委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"150797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0501c6cb9816205110ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a610110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:25:30 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12:32:31","影片長度":"00:07:01","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":421,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:32:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:25:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時25分）謝謝召委，麻煩請龔主委、胡次長。"],["主席：請龔主委、胡次長。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝召委，謝謝兩位長官。今天環島高速鐵路的部分想先請教一下，因為目前環島高速鐵路已經有在往宜蘭方面做一些評估對不對，現在正在環境相關的評估？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["廖委員先翔：確認一下，因為當初在召開相關討論的時候，新北市的地方政府有提出是不是有在平溪設站的可行性，不曉得在地方政府提出建議之後，有沒有做相關的回應或者是做相關的評估？"],["胡次長湘麟：在評估的時候確實地方政府有提出來這個想法，不過當時我們從現行等等事情考慮，當初還沒有給一個回應說那邊要再設站。"],["廖委員先翔：所以目前還沒有一個明確的方向？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["廖委員先翔：大概到哪個階段可以討論這件事情？"],["胡次長湘麟：現在的綜合規劃來講，應該到114年，我想這個方向應該會在今年或者是明年的時間來去做評估。"],["廖委員先翔：好，就是在做綜合規劃報告的時候，我們會來討論平溪地區有沒有辦法來做共站。當然大家可能會認為平溪這麼小的一個地方，有沒有辦法負荷高鐵的運量，我想先請教一下，當然我們在質詢的時候，還是要先有背景知識的一些瞭解，想先確認一下，評估高鐵設不設站時，在運量上面會有哪一些基本的要求？"],["胡次長湘麟：沒有基本上的要求，但是我相信這個量要能夠起來，除了有在地、附近服務的人口之外……"],["廖委員先翔：人口絕對不夠，一定是觀光客嘛！"],["胡次長湘麟：對，還有一些產業的發展，包括觀光產業的發展，這一部分要設站，我覺得根本上的問題會是我們今天要找到適合設站的地點，跟它的線形能夠搭配起來，這才是關鍵，接下來才是運量的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：所以目前線形經過新北市的部分，都已經確認了嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：還沒有完全確認。"],["廖委員先翔：所以也是在綜合規劃報告的時候才會確認線形？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["廖委員先翔：之後才來評估有沒有辦法設置平溪站。如果往宜蘭走的話，未來我們的起迄站，如果以屏東跟宜蘭來講的話，屏東應該會先，對不對？"],["胡次長湘麟：你是說新建的屏東段？"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["胡次長湘麟：目前來講時程還差不多，不過現在還沒有決定最後的建設地點。"],["廖委員先翔：屏東也還沒確定？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["廖委員先翔：假設之後兩邊都定案了，將來的起迄站會是宜蘭跟屏東嗎？還是會像現在的南港到左營？"],["胡次長湘麟：我們現在在做延伸屏東跟延伸宜蘭的綜規跟環評，在我們做綜規、環評的時候，都會把未來延伸的可行性都放進去，所以將來延伸到宜花東是從宜蘭現有的車站往花蓮、臺東去接到屏東。"],["廖委員先翔：對，因為現在有很多種不同的班次，包括站站停，有臺北、臺中然後直接到左營的，對不對？所以未來假設延伸到宜蘭跟屏東的時候，會有部分的班次是從宜蘭發車，部分的班次從南港發車，會是這樣嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：我覺得這樣推測是合理的，不過，實際上停靠的班次還是要看將來的營運單位跟營運需要。"],["廖委員先翔：所以目前全數都是從南港發車，未來就算延伸到宜蘭的話，也不一定全部都是從宜蘭發車，而是從你們的運量來調整，看看要從宜蘭還是南港發車？"],["胡次長湘麟：是，不一定。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我還是回到運量的部分，平溪線是否要設站，當然最重要的就是觀光客人數能不能支撐高鐵站，我想先確認一下，因為地方政府在爭取的時候，可能也是需要有一些論述才能夠來爭取，所以現在高鐵站哪一個站的運量是目前最低的？它一天、一個月平均的運量大概是多少？我們地方政府可能就會以這個來當作一個低標、當作一個爭取，就是未來做相關評估時的一個依據。"],["胡次長湘麟：目前幾個車站運量最低的是彰化車站，它一天的量大概是4,000。"],["廖委員先翔：一天4,000，所以假設地方政府想要爭取在平溪設站，地方政府在評估上，最起碼這邊的運量一天要4,000以上嗎？是有這樣的要求嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：我們不適合拿彰化站來做比較，我們希望每一個站都能像臺北站一樣，但是我覺得它運量的高低會影響到未來的設不設站以及設站之後停靠的班次有多少。"],["廖委員先翔：當然一定是越少人的部分越少停，假設真的有機會在平溪設站，我們也不可能要求每班都停，就像你們未來不可能每班都開到宜蘭，這是最基本的，我們知道這一定是效率的問題，只是地方政府在爭取的時候、在做報告的時候，一定要提出我們希望爭取的一些利基點，以說服交通部我們的方案是可行的、是有運輸效益的、對國家是有幫助的，或是對臺灣的觀光是有幫助的，所以我第一個想到的是運量，請問未來還有什麼可能也是地方政府需要去訴求的地方？"],["胡次長湘麟：這是最基本的，當然還有其他的一些考慮跟周邊、附近的一些開發，我覺得這個部分必須可以幫助運量。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是未來可能有聯合開發之類的概念？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，未來地方政府在爭取的時候，我們現在可能都會認為平溪運量不是那麼的足夠，但是我們也應該要給地方政府一個方向來努力，做足一些功課，進而向我們交通部來爭取，當然除了運量之外，希望未來能夠像做綜規一樣的概念，有哪些東西可以讓我們地方政府來說服你們這邊是有機會來設站的，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員，請作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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那這個有關我還是回到運量的部分這個平溪店是否要設站當然最重要的就是觀光客的人數能不能支撐高鐵站我想先確認一下我們現在因為地方政府在爭取的時候他可能也是需要一些論述才能夠來爭取我想確認一下現在高鐵站哪一個站的運量"},{"start":287.552,"end":288.433,"text":"《環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案》案"},{"start":303.226,"end":321.892,"text":"目前幾個車站運量最低的是彰化車站那一天的量大概是4000一天4000所以說假設如果說地方政府想要爭取平息在那邊設站的話那地方政府的評估會最起碼這邊的運量一天要有4000以上嗎?是這樣嗎?"},{"start":324.139,"end":339.176,"text":"我們不適合拿彰化站來做比,我們希望每一個站都能像台北站一樣。但是我覺得它的月亮的高低會影響到未來的涉不涉站以及涉站之後的停靠的班次有多少。"},{"start":339.816,"end":360.814,"text":"當然當然當然一定是越少站的越少人的部分越少停當然假設假設真的有機會在平溪社站我們也不可能要求每班都停嘛對不對就像你們未來不可能每班都開到宜蘭嘛這是最基本的我們知道一定是效率的問題啦那只是說地方政府在爭取的時候我們在做報告的時候地方政府一定也要提出我們希望爭取的一些利基點嘛"},{"start":361.254,"end":362.355,"text":"未來可能你說可能聯合開發之類的概念"},{"start":390.998,"end":391.018,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0dfd7ceb8e9f549d625a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a62cb1202a763c6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:21:00 - 12:29:57","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":537,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:29:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:21:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時21分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請薛部長。"],["主席：好，有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長辛苦了。還是一樣針對這個部分，為什麼剛剛那個臨時提案本席也特別在這邊來瞭解？因為上一次本席在這邊質詢的時候說，如果這個業者已經超過時間沒有投保的話，最高可以罰3萬到300萬，那為什麼這一次寶林茶室業者從去年保險過期並且延續到今年都沒有繳費，等於是已經快要半年的時間，如果凡事都要依靠地方政府來去稽查、去瞭解，我們編再多的人力物力其實都沒有辦法，所以重點應該是我們在做相關管理的時候，對每一個業者的保險日期是否有效可以做系統性的追蹤，這一點你認同嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。目前應該要在非登系統裡面投保的這些廠商，應該要在非登系統把他們的保單效期登上去。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果能夠再多加一個欄位將有效期納入來做追蹤管理，相關警示會用系統的方式去跳出來，譬如說，這個月什麼時候或下個月有多少業者會到期，相關單位是不是可以去瞭解說他們有沒有續保？甚至我覺得如果有的話，也可以跟相關單位一起結合來去討論，你用系統直接去管理，重點在於現在法令已經規定業者都要強制投保。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們應該要用系統協助幫忙，業者既然開業，必須付出的成本其中一項就是包含投保，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以現在我們根據委員的提案，預計會在一個月之內把系統優化，也就是說，我們希望在保單到期之前一個月就自動跳出警示。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：讓地方政府也能夠知道，也許地方政府就可以在最近一個月之內去做稽查。"],["洪委員孟楷：他們就可以去瞭解，甚至可以看到示警，然後去預防。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：早上臺北市政府有講到寶林有4家店可能都沒有投保，所以光是沒投保就可能開罰高達千萬元，那這一個負責人現在如果雙手一攤，說業績不好、去脫產，甚至我們剛剛看到王必勝次長還說，現在四例在住加護病房的受害者可能有兩例要換肝，如果要換肝的話，我們有辦法協助代位求償嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：代位求償如果是從健保那邊，是有可能的。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼意思叫做健保那邊有可能代位求償？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這些醫療費用一定是從健保支出，如果有應該負責的人，健保署再代位去求償。"],["洪委員孟楷：代替這一些病患再去跟業者來求償？是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是如果現在業者沒有投保，雙手一攤？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那這個求償就會有困難。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這樣就變成是一個問題跟漏洞。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們再一次強調，過去的法令規定餐飲相關行業要投保，本來投保公共責任險就是必要、就是強制。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是產品責任險。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？產品責任險，業者就已經有必要投保，這個是法令規定，那就不應該有空窗期，也不應該便宜行事、心存僥倖，業者半個月沒有投保，地方政府也沒有來稽查，過一個月也沒有來稽查，乾脆半年不投保試試看，能混就混，能過就過，這樣也不好吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以現在就要補這個漏洞。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，我再請教，這一次發生米酵菌酸中毒事件，大家也說這個東西在我們國內沒有樣品，可是鄰近的國家包括中國大陸、東南亞國家其實也都發生過中毒事件，根據實驗室裡面有的相關快篩試劑產品資訊，目前只有34件食品快篩試劑，是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：什麼樣的食品快篩試劑？"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在看到媒體報導說，在我們的食品篩檢資訊專頁，總共有34件食品快篩試劑的產品資訊，並編列在本預算裡面。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們要瞭解一下，因為一般來講，所謂的食品快篩試劑能夠做的範圍是比較有限的，通常快篩只是在第一次的篩檢，如果有問題仍然要進入我們的實驗室檢驗，所以快篩通常是用在別的地方，比如說我們去做稽查的時候、去市場，我們可以趕快來做，大概是那一類的。"],["洪委員孟楷：初步的篩檢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，對，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是實驗室裡面相關的樣品也不夠，大家也說，因為米酵菌酸中毒過去這一、兩年或兩、三年裡面，不管是中國大陸還是東南亞地區都有發生過，我們沒有準備。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前食藥署的實驗室準備的標準品大概有七千多項，但是如果依照國際食品檢驗可能需要、可以配置的標準品大概有兩萬多種，我們不太可能每一種都備在那裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講到重點了，你說到國際的標準或者是相關規範，因為一定是有一個標準，如果說國際的標準有兩萬多種，我們到目前才七千多種，那中間的一萬三千多種是不是就是有差距？本席也沒有要求你馬上就要備齊這一萬三千多種，但至少鄰近國家已經有發生過中毒事件的、已經有案例的，或者是可能這幾年比較流行的，是不是應該超前部署，優先備妥？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會來檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼檢討？來，部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：一定是要由專業來協助……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，因為本席有看到署長講說，當食藥署同仁驅車去彰化帶回標準品的時候，看到時快哭了，媒體馬上講說，其實真正該落淚的應該是臺灣人民吧，這代表食藥署對這種國外早先發生多起的米酵菌酸中毒事件毫無警戒、毫無防備、毫無準備。"],["薛部長瑞元：那個也沒有多起啦，其實case都很少。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，那就對了嘛，你自己剛剛已經親口承認說，在國外如果以正常標準來講要兩萬件。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是正常標準，是說國際上面有提供的……"],["洪委員孟楷：國際上面有，那臺灣要不要跟國際接軌？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，是說存在標準品的，但並不是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席今天提出來的重點在於是，我當然知道方方面面有那麼多，但是重點在於是，如果有國際上比較流行的，或者是像這個案例在鄰近國家也都有爆發過類似事件，我們沒有任何的警覺、沒有任何超前部署。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們當然可以進一步來檢討，就是我們所備置的標準品有哪些可能會需要的，再重新做一個檢討，這個可以啦。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會檢討出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想我們會開委員會來檢討，可能要找這些專家，可能要兩、三個月的時間才能夠把人湊齊，因為我們還需要survey鄰近的國家可能有哪一些疾病，哪一些我們可能會用到，然後這一個部分的話還是需要專業來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席都同意讓專業來講話，不要真的讓大家看媒體報導時覺得，應該要嚴格把關源頭管理的食藥署在每一次發生事件的時候都是最後一個反應，或是讓大家覺得慢半拍。"],["薛部長瑞元：不能這樣說，因為這些新興的疾病、新興的物質的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：我同意，但是我還是強調，是鄰近國家已經有的，我們今天討論的不是歐洲，我們今天討論的不是比較遠的國家，就是在東南亞地區發生的狀況，以旅客往返、以我們食品安全習慣及飲食習慣來講，是不是東南亞地區相對來說……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，給我們三個月好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你說的，麻煩你，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","因為等一下還有多位委員要質詢，所以黃珊珊委員發言結束後先休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.42471875,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.44159375,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":27.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.64096875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.69534375,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.62159375,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.91534375,"end":140.95409375},{"s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來部長"},{"start":393.784,"end":419.146,"text":"這一定是要有專業來協助部長因為本席有看到我們的署長講說當食藥署同仁驅車去彰化帶回標準品的時候看到快哭了媒體盲講說其實真正落淚的應該是臺灣人民吧代表說食藥署對這種國外早生發生多起的米酵遜磚中毒事件毫無警戒毫無防備毫無準備那個也沒有多起啦其實case都很少部長"},{"start":419.907,"end":443.675,"text":"那就對了嘛你自己剛剛已經親口承認講說國外如果說以正常標準來講要兩萬件不是正常標準是說國際上面那國際上面那臺灣要不要跟國際接軌不是就是說這一個是本席今天提出來的重點在於是本席今天提出來的重點在於是我當然知道方方面面有那麼多"},{"start":444.375,"end":444.535,"text":"什麼時候會檢討出來?"},{"start":468.81,"end":488.251,"text":"我想我們會開這個委員會來做檢討可能要找這些專家可能要兩三個月的時間才能夠把它湊齊因為我們還需要調查說那鄰近的國家可能有哪一些的疾病可能會用到的然後這一個部分的話還是需要專業來做"},{"start":489.873,"end":507.928,"text":"部長本時都同意專業講話而不是說我們不要真的讓大家覺得是說媒體報導是好像讓覺得每一次應該要嚴格把關源頭管理的食藥所的時候每一次發生事件的時候都是最後一個反應或說讓大家覺得滿滿拍的"},{"start":508.208,"end":508.428,"text":"部長你說的,麻煩你,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0e31f5c84666fe8e482ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6f2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:21:02 - 12:28:08","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":426,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:28:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:21:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":952,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時21分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好，現在台積電這個CoWoS封裝廠落腳在嘉義科學園區大概是已經確定了，所以事實上要怎麼強化整個從嘉科到周邊的一些運輸交通能量，我覺得這件事很重要。我想要進一步來跟我們部長說，如果以現在整個半導體的布局，從嘉義到臺南南科、一直到高雄橋科，大概是整體的一個規劃，這一些半導體從生產到封測，到最後要出口，它主要要靠什麼出口？"],["王部長國材：空運。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在要靠空運的話，都要從哪裡出去？"],["王部長國材：桃園機場。"],["蔡委員易餘：看起來都是桃園機場，因為現在桃園機場貨運的吞吐量大概是占所有貨運差不多百分之九十幾，我們國內每個地方都有機場，像高雄有小港機場、臺南有安平機場、嘉義也有水上機場，都有機場，但是貨運基本上都做不起來，都要靠桃機，當然因為桃園有其先天上的優勢，包括說它本身的班機航線夠多，現在的貨運幾乎都是跟民航抱在一起的。第二個問題，因為現在大概除了桃園以外，其他地方的機場都是有宵禁的問題，其次當然就是涉及到這個機場航站的面積，甚至是跑道的長度。所以我也大概整理了整個南部一些機場，因為嘉義機場的跑道長度是3,050，臺南機場也是3,050，花蓮是2,751，臺東是2,438，那我要請教部長的是，如果以這樣的跑道長度來發展國際貨運的話，這幾個機場有沒有機會呢？"],["王部長國材：我們現在桃機新的跑道大概都是4,000公尺、3,850，所以的確這個是太短了，真的太短了。"],["蔡委員易餘：基本上都是不夠嘛！"],["王部長國材：前後機在跑的時候是會比較不夠。"],["蔡委員易餘：會比較不夠嘛，但我要跟部長說，我們如果真的要規劃的話，在整個南部的半導體生產出來後，南部是需要有國際機場的，即可以跑這樣貨運的國際機場，既然大家都知道不管是高雄也好、臺南也好，它所有的半導體還是都要跑到桃園，這中間的運費是很高的，所以南部能不能有國際機場？這件事需要部長來做一個打算，才有這樣的機會。"],["王部長國材：南部國際機場……"],["蔡委員易餘：針對貨運的，南部現在的小港也是國際機場。但是我們在貨運部分，要提升它的功能的話，我們要有另外的安排。"],["王部長國材：就是說要建一個南部新的國際機場，包括用地跟環評，過去交通部的民航局也做過評估，非常困難，當時包括高雄南星、臺南、岡山也都評估過，我個人是覺得，因為以桃園機場的話，第一個，你如果要送到世界各國去，通通都要有航線，這個最重要，一個機場不是說做一個機場而已，航線要不要進駐是一個問題，如果沒有航線，等於說……比如說你到歐洲，若沒有航線就飛不出去什麼等等的問題，當然我們可以針對於整個嘉科或是台積電在嘉義裡面看如何有怎麼樣的一些方案啦，尤其要比較極短期的方案啦，比如說如何跟桃園機場快速連結，甚至有些部分它可能是跟高雄機場做一些連結，我想這部分我們……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，希望部長能整體評估一下。"],["王部長國材：好，我們思考一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果說機場需要擴大或怎樣，我覺得我們嘉義機場還是有其一些優勢在，畢竟如果涉及到徵收的話，我們徵收的成本相對是比較低的，好不好？這是讓部長可以去考慮的。","第二個，因為時間不夠，再1分鐘就好，我們知道針對橋科跟南科過去有所謂S廊線、S廊帶，然後要把它串聯起來，現在從橋科跟南科他們所謂晶圓的製造、先進製程的製造，未來總要到嘉科再做先進封裝CoWoS的一個……","所以，未來這個S廊帶要怎麼可以延伸到嘉科，這部分可能也要請部長來做評估。我想第一步比較具體、而且可能相對成本比較低的大概就是從高鐵下面這條台37線，剛好是高鐵下方，現在到嘉義剛好到鹿草而已，到臺南這一段就沒了。部長，未來針對把所謂這三個科學園區交通串聯在一起，台37線可以扮演的一個重要的角色，就是說我們只要在高鐵沿線下方這條台37線從鹿草延伸到新營、甚至未來有沒有可能延伸到南科，這部分有沒有辦法來做一個評估？"],["王部長國材：是不是這樣子？南部高雄市有這樣的計畫，它是台39，台39的這個高鐵橋下的計畫，這部分是不是先由縣政府這邊初步評估一下，然後我們再做一些討論，看看是從生活圈還是要怎麼樣來處理，這樣好不好？"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這部分就來做個規劃啦，把這三個科學園區可以串聯在一起。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：對未來整體的區域發展是有很大的幫助。"],["王部長國材：那個請縣政府先初步評估一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。謝謝"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：蔡委員發言完畢。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員發言，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","現在請傅委員崐萁發言，傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","現在請張嘉郡委員發言，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員發言，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.27471875,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.68534375,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.54096875,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.10909375,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.445968750000006,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.90409375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.400968750000004,"end":63.430343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.71721875,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.59034375,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.33284375000001,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.93596875,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.08721875,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":78.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.85409375,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.93846875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.65971875000001,"end":84.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.16596875,"end":82.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.62534375,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.84471875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.86159375000001,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":87.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.90221875,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.8034687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那我們是不是有請部長請部長蔡委好 是部長齁這個現在台積電這個COVAX封裝廠那大概在嘉義科學園區已經做一個已經確定了所以事實上要怎麼強化整個從家科"},{"start":30.643,"end":54.83,"text":"到周邊的這樣的一些運輸或交通的能量我想這件事情要緊所以我想要進一步來跟部長說就是說如果以現在整個半導體的一個布局那從嘉義那到台南的南科一直到高雄橋科他大概是整體的一個規劃"},{"start":55.99,"end":68.399,"text":"那這樣的一些半導體的一些從生產到封測最後要出口他主要要靠什麼要出口?空運都靠空運啦現在要靠空運的位置他都要在哪裡?"},{"start":71.324,"end":74.467,"text":"臺灣機場貨運的吞吐量大概是佔所有貨運的差不多90幾%每個地方都有機場"},{"start":90.663,"end":107.817,"text":"從高雄有小港、台南安平機場、嘉義有水上機場都有機場但是貨運基本上都做不起來都要靠通行當然通行有比較先天上的一個優勢它的優勢包括說它本身的班機航線夠多現在的貨運幾乎都是跟所謂的民航跟貨運是包在一起的"},{"start":119.576,"end":136.705,"text":"這個問題就是說因為現在大概除了通行以外村的地方的機場都是有宵禁的問題那第二個就是當然要涉及到這個機場它的航站的一個面積甚至跑道的長度所以我大概也整理齁"},{"start":138.291,"end":157.517,"text":"大概整個南部啦,南部的一些機場,你看,因為嘉義機場他的跑道長度是3050,台南機場也是3050,那花蓮是2751,那台東是2438,那我要請教部長就是說,那如果以這樣的跑道長度來發展國際的貨運的話,這幾個機場有沒有機會呢?"},{"start":162.888,"end":171.245,"text":"我們現在那個陶磯都大概新的都是大概4000公尺現在都是大概3800"},{"start":174.494,"end":196.423,"text":"對,3850,所以的確這個是比較太短了,真的太短,有點太短,所以如果那種前後機在跑的時候是會比較不夠,會比較不夠嘛,但是就是我老實說,我們如果要真的要規劃的話,在整個南部的一個半導體的一個生產出來後,南部是需要有國際機場的"},{"start":198.504,"end":210.772,"text":"可以跑這樣的貨運的國際機場因為目前既然我們大家都知道不管是高雄也好 台南也好他的所有的半導體還是都要跑到桃園這中間的運費是很高的"},{"start":212.211,"end":220.922,"text":"中間的運費是很高的,所以南部能不能有國際機場,這件事要我們部長你來做一個PASS才有這樣的機會,貨運的,針對貨運的,南部現在小港是國際機場,但是我們在貨運要提升它的功能的話,我們要有另外的安排"},{"start":232.891,"end":252.087,"text":"對,就是說要建一個南部新的國際機場,包括用地跟環評,過去交通部的民進黨局也做過評估,非常困難,當時有包括高雄南新嘛,還有包括台南啊等等都有,還有包括岡山也都評估過,那我個人是覺得"},{"start":255.87,"end":271.499,"text":"因為台灣機場第一個你如果要送到世界各國去通通有航線這個最重要你一個機場不是說做一個機場你那航線要不要進駐是問題如果沒有航線等於說你趕快比如說你到歐洲沒有航線就飛不出去什麼等等的問題"},{"start":272.78,"end":295.601,"text":"我覺得當然我們可以針對於這個整個加科或是台積電在嘉義裡面看怎麼樣有怎麼樣的一些方案尤其要比較極短期的方案比如說跟台灣國際上怎麼連結快速甚至有些部分他可能是跟高雄機場做一些連結我想這部分我們來"},{"start":296.782,"end":323.545,"text":"我先整體評估一下如果說機場需要擴大怎樣我覺得我們嘉義機場他還是有他一些優勢在因為畢竟如果涉及到徵收的話我們相對的徵收的成本是比較低的這是讓部長可以去考慮的那第二個時間都一分鐘了那我們知道在針對橋科跟南科過去有所謂S狼線S狼帶"},{"start":325.426,"end":325.466,"text":"蔡易餘議員"},{"start":349.218,"end":359.151,"text":"這部分可能也要請部長來做評估那我想第一步哩比較具體而且可能相對成本比較低的大概就是在從高鐵下面這條台37線"},{"start":361.272,"end":361.852,"text":"高鐵沿線的下方"},{"start":385.399,"end":413.466,"text":"為六廠延伸到新娘,甚至未來我們就招攬客戶,這個講法就來做一個評估先是不是這樣吼,南部高雄市有這樣的計畫,它是台山九啦對,台山九的這個高鐵橋下的這個計畫,那這部分是不是先縣政府這一邊初步評估一下,然後再我們再做一些討論,說是從生活圈要怎麼樣來處理這樣,好不好?好,那這部分來"},{"start":414.766,"end":425.218,"text":"來 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12,"end":269.352,"text":"我舉個例子給你聽"},{"start":287.796,"end":302.705,"text":"我們那個路邊賣米粉湯的雜貨店賣米粉的過去我們政府奪名查秋豪欸欸米粉沒有米就說啊不能叫米粉這要叫做炊粉天啊那00940"},{"start":309.209,"end":334.474,"text":"解剖標面金額公然欺騙社會大眾的話直接在他名字上叫做台灣價值高動能高息可以這樣嗎?什麼叫做高息?用這個欺騙我們社會大眾嗎?這樣子的同樣的標準過去政府堆一碗泡麵欸牛肉泡麵18塊以前"},{"start":336.567,"end":336.767,"text":"所以,黃主委"},{"start":365.851,"end":378.654,"text":"這不能怪你個人啦我覺得就是我們金管會可能雞皮疙瘩就隨便這一些大財團們隨便他們那邊胡亂扯不是嗎讓他回復到他該00940簡單名稱就名稱啦不要取那些什麼高啦什麼大啦可以嗎"},{"start":393.359,"end":393.759,"text":"他話術更多了!"},{"start":412.978,"end":438.9,"text":"我剛講的是他直接在名字上面話術一堆他還把巴菲特弄到他們的廣告單裡面還寫神級的高股息天啊你要去看一看他們那個廣告詞更可怕我是說名稱畢業證明乎不能讓他用名稱來枉騙我們社會大眾好我因為時間有限我主要要跟你談今天的主題齁"},{"start":440.612,"end":453.678,"text":"另外兩點啊第一個就是IEITS齁我認為那個財政部長你一起上來好嗎要請周部長你們用不斷的政權化"},{"start":455.497,"end":471.874,"text":"這個基金要來引導我們社會的油資進入公共建設這個是對的可是本席害怕的是什麼呢因為你們定說一定比率來公共建設"},{"start":472.995,"end":497.588,"text":"那其他扣除一定比例那就是等於跑去又炒作不動產啊那糟糕我們台灣房價現在已經過高過度炒作那你又讓這麼大筆的資金扣除所謂的一定比例到公共建設以外你們又未到不動產去所以我要請教就是說一定比例是多少"},{"start":498.368,"end":518.747,"text":"一定比例,那個部長跟主委,你們個別認為是多少?報告委員,這個其實目的那個不是炒房,我們特別強調……我知道不是炒房,你目的不是嘛,可是你募來這麼多的基金的話,你只要一定比例是公共建設。"},{"start":521.152,"end":544.193,"text":"現在這些財團對公共建設他們的興趣齊缺那怎麼辦這邊跟您報告這邊可能講的是那種綠能啊這種替代能源的這些產業是政府正在推動的能源政策相關的這個也是公共建設範圍之內對我認為我們現在要推的公共建設太多比方說我就說捷運"},{"start":545.761,"end":571.682,"text":"他有很穩定可以去開發新市鎮降低房價他可以大幅的減少我們車禍的傷亡他可以快捷的讓我們市民便利的交通這麼多優點就算捷運碰到問題關我們台北市我記得我上次跟你提過我們台北市關南環北環東環就差了440億一直苦無知今的"},{"start":572.663,"end":574.925,"text":"昨年來投資公共建設的他去年投資118億天啊"},{"start":599.839,"end":625.896,"text":"三兆的尾數的尾數公共建設再拖延的話會增加社會成本對社會成本的增加對社會的傷害非常的大所以我認為一定比例你們要那個部長那你認為一定比例是多少委員這一定比例這個部分可能事後我們會再討論當然跟委員報告就是剛剛您提的捷運其實它是一個非常好的一個公共建設的項目"},{"start":626.758,"end":646.109,"text":"是可以引進民間資金來做儲餐的模式是來可以做的是好不好你們積極規劃嘛現在不只台北市的捷運新北市、台中、高雄這是未來社會應該走的未來交通也是建設的大的路線那個記得公共建設"},{"start":647.35,"end":666.581,"text":"晚一天社會成本就增加,一天不是這樣嗎?其實我今天主題要跟你們談的還沒談到耶。那個...我脾氣一來齁,抱歉齁,你查一下齁,那個主席我再叮嚀一句就好,你查一下我剛剛說的你們要找中信"},{"start":667.662,"end":668.843,"text":"週三我們會有專題報告這個禮拜三我們會有專題"},{"start":692.518,"end":693.7,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。緊接著我們請牛許廷委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0b04a78f1bafd3ef00ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a671dc8c628705a3665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:18:56 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12:25:22","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":386,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:25:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:18:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時19分）謝謝召委，有請國發會主委以及交通部次長。"],["主席：好，請兩位，謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝主委，謝謝次長。"],["胡次長湘麟：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：今天本席在質詢之前有去司法法制委員會，其實感受到許多重大的一些措施、重大的建設、重大的改革是經過非常長期的討論，包括像今天重要的環島高速鐵路的建置，相信也是要經過很多的討論。但是本席今天在司法法制委員會的一個感受，就是該做的、該可以努力的，我們要為成功找方法。但是我們看到許多用拖延或卡關的方式來阻止改革、來阻止建設，讓本席也是相當地痛心。所以今天在環島高鐵的草案，不僅是拋磚引玉，也甚至希望能夠積極建設。我相信不管是主委或者是次長，也都希望我們國家能夠有重大建設，而且是能夠讓民眾有感，這樣子沒錯吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。所以我們也支持交通部開始啟動相關的可行的一些規劃。"],["游委員顥：所以其實也是正向認同跟支持這個環島鐵路、環島高鐵，沒有錯吧？"],["胡次長湘麟：環島高鐵一直是交通部的一個施政願景，我們是往這個方向在推動，但關鍵是所有相關的程序跟應該考量的事情要把它建立起來。"],["游委員顥：這個我相信絕對沒有錯，但是今天看到像內政部就是一頁的報告，我還想說今天可能是4月1號愚人節，但是沒有關係，其實如果可以的話應該是要有更多充分的討論，還是鼓勵內政部未來能夠有更多的包括參與跟對於業務跟建設的表態。那我想直接問國發會主委，對於過去蔣經國時期的十大建設您怎麼評語？簡單講就好。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：十大建設有當時的時代背景，那時候也剛好國際上有石油危機，造成經濟上的衝擊，所以十大建設不僅是對於基礎建設有很大的幫助，對經濟的發展也有奠定相當的基礎。"],["游委員顥：沒錯，就不再請您再列舉十大建設，大家其實都背誦得很清楚。目前來講，近年來有沒有可以讓交通部或是國發會特別提出的，像十大建設一樣可以讓民心振奮的重大建設？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，事實上每一個國家重大建設都按照程序來辦理，比如說現在大家關心的花東交通建設的部分，近幾年來交通部投入了大概3,000億的預算來支持它，除了台九線的景觀或是安全性的提升，甚至於臺鐵的雙軌化，讓它速度可以加快。"],["游委員顥：我大致這樣回應好了，我絕對也是肯定中央許多單位大家戮力於希望國家的發展更好，所以我不會去否定或是否認過去所做的，但是剛才的回應，本席是認為沒有辦法直接列舉出哪幾項可以拿來說是近幾年來作為重大發展及重大交通建設的突破。當然剛才許多委員也有提到是不是用特別條例的部分，其實在嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別條例，也同樣賦予一些重大政策或重大措施法源，所以像今天的這個特別條例，其實過去民進黨團曾經也提出過花東建設條例，在馬英九執政時期也是在一些特殊情況賦予法源，給它基金、給它有機會能夠發展。所以同樣在重大建設，本案也一樣地拋磚引玉，為未來國家長治久安、長遠發展能夠有一些亮點措施。本席同樣地再做建議，不管是花東的快速道路、環島高速鐵路甚至國道六號東延南投到花蓮，國民黨團提出的這三個建設，相信未來會替整個國家發展帶來更大的便利性，雖然裡面唯一跟南投有關的只有國道六號東延到花蓮，但是如果說未來總體的重大經濟、重大建設，都像當初十大建設一樣能夠創造出來，我相信將來整個臺灣的商業環境、投資環境絕對會是更好更充足的，以這樣子的角度來看待重大建設案，是不是能夠支持跟認同這個案子？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們對於環島高鐵並沒有表達反對的意思，只是程序上現在已經有既有機制了，那循既有機制來講，這套機制是在2000年之前就已經存在了，歷任都按照這個機制來做，重要的建設也慢慢都已經建設完畢。"],["游委員顥：好，因為時間剩下有限，最後10秒本席還是建議，不管是先往屏東這一段還是先到宜蘭那一段，我希望交通部跟國發會能夠積極地去推動，在朝野的立委也能夠積極溝通，讓未來這種重大建設能夠逐步完成好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，來敬禮，謝謝。接下來請廖先翔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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所以我們也支持就是交通部開始啟動相關的這個可行的一些規劃"},{"start":98.291,"end":116.634,"text":"那所以說其實也是正向認同跟支持這個環島鐵路環島高鐵沒有錯吧環島高鐵一直是交通部的一個施政願景我們是往這方向在推動但是關鍵是我們要把所有相關的程序跟應該考量的事情要把它建立起來"},{"start":117.57,"end":142.691,"text":"這個我相信絕對沒有錯但是其實像今天看到內政部的話其實就是一頁的報告我想說今天可能4月1號愚人節但是沒有關係我在想說其實如果可以的話應該是要有更多充分的討論那才是鼓勵內政部未來來講能夠有更多的一個包括參與跟對於這個業務跟這個建設的一個表態那我想直接問一下國防會主委"},{"start":143.251,"end":165.648,"text":"對於過去來講,蔣經國時期的十大建設,您怎麼評語?簡單講就好。十大建設有當時的這個時代背景,因為那時候也剛好是國際上有石油危機嘛,造成經濟上的衝擊。所以十大建設不僅是對於基礎建設有很大的幫助,對經濟的發展也有奠基相當的基礎。"},{"start":166.465,"end":187.816,"text":"沒錯。那沒關係,我就不再請你再列舉十大建設,因為大家都其實都背誦得很清楚。那我想問一下在目前來講有沒有什麼認為是可以讓交通部或是國發會在大家在近年來可以特別提出的,就像那時候十大建設一樣可以讓我們民心振奮的重大建設?"},{"start":189.881,"end":217.6,"text":"發言委員事實上每個國家的重要建設我們都按照這個程序來做一些辦理比如說以現在大家關心的這個花東的這些交通建設的部分過近近幾年來交通部就投入了大概3000億的預算來支持它除了這個公路上的這些花就是台九縣的這些不管是景觀也好或是安全性也好的提升甚至於台鐵的這個雙軌化"},{"start":219.621,"end":247.773,"text":"讓它速度可以加快其實我大致上還是在回應好了我絕對也是肯定當然我們中央許多單位大家努力於希望我們的國家發展更好所以我不會去否定或去否認過去所做的但是從剛才的一個回應那本席是認為沒有辦法直接列舉出哪幾項還可以拿來覺得說在近幾年來可以作為一個重大發展及重大交通建設的一個突破"},{"start":248.433,"end":264.579,"text":"那當然說 剛才許多的委員也有提到就是說 是不是用特別條例的部分其實在嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困症性特別條例也同樣賦予一些重大政策或重大措施法源"},{"start":265.279,"end":282.695,"text":"所以我是在講說,像今天的這個特別條例啊,而且過去在民進黨曾經黨團也提出過花東建設條例在馬英九執政時期,其實也是位於讓一些特殊的一個情況賦予他法源給他基金給他有機會能夠發展,所以同樣的"},{"start":283.496,"end":308.162,"text":"在重大的一個建設那此案也一樣的一個拋磚引玉能夠為未來國家長治久安長遠發展能夠有些亮點措施那本席同樣的是在這裡在做建議不管是花東的快速道路不管是環島高速鐵路甚至國道6號東延南投道花蓮其實這三點其實國民黨團提出的這三個建設"},{"start":309.162,"end":336.951,"text":"相信其實會未來我們的整個國家發展帶來更大的便利性,領略來講唯一跟南投有關的只有國道6號、東延到華聯。但是如果說未來的總體的重大經濟、重大建設都能夠像當初十大建設一樣都能夠創造出來,我相信將來整個台灣的一個商業環境、投資環境絕對會是更好、更充足的。所以以這樣子的角度來看待重大建設案,這一個案子來講,是不是能夠支持跟認同?"},{"start":338.866,"end":350.341,"text":"發言委員我們對於環島高鐵並沒有說表達說反對的意思只是說程序上現在已經有既有機制了那循這個既有機制來講它過去來講這套機制是在"},{"start":352.765,"end":380.099,"text":"二千年之前就已經存在了是歷任大家都按照這個機制來做那重要的建設也慢慢都已經建設完畢因為時間剩下有限最後十秒本席還是建議不管是先往屏東這一段以及先到宜蘭那一段我希望交通部跟國發會能夠積極的來去推動而且在於草野的立委來講也能夠積極溝通讓未來這種重大建設能夠來逐步完成好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":382.352,"end":382.755,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"150792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0c15af0be34fb61159e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a65235172bced87b3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:12:30 - 12:21:37","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":547,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:21:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:12:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時12分）謝謝主席，我先請秘書長休息一下，我想請陳次長。"],["主席：麻煩陳次長。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們今天討論的是有關於國會改革的法案，可是今天聽到了民進黨委員，尤其是吳思瑤委員的發言，認為本黨及本席所提出來的國會改革法案是一個國會擴權的法案，本席在這邊感到非常的感慨，我們社會在與時俱進，法制也在與時俱進，唯獨民進黨是與時俱退，他們忘記他們二十年前，甚至更早之前，他們所提出來的國會改革以及相關強化國會監督的法案，如今他們拿了政權之後就忘記他們之前所做的一些承諾，這是讓本人感到非常遺憾的地方。請陳次長接受備詢，主要是有幾個問題想要請陳次長談談您的看法。","我們知道，為了像是審理、偵查以及調查一些個案的事實，目前司法機關、行政機關、監察機關等其實都設有調查權，請問次長，您覺得有國家重要權力且肩負重要職責的權力機關，調查權重不重要？"],["陳次長明堂：重要，各有所司。"],["翁委員曉玲：各有所司，那麼對於不配合剛剛講的這些機關的調查，甚至有做偽證或是有虛偽陳述的行為，您認為需不需要做處罰？"],["陳次長明堂：在其他的立法例裡面，有規避、妨礙或拒絕調查，是有一些行政法，不過我要跟委員報告一下，第585號解釋因為層次比較高……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在沒有問到您有關於立法權的部分，其實現在就有針對如果不配合法院、檢察機關或是行政機關的相關行為的處罰規定，不管在刑法、行政訴訟法、民事訴訟法、刑事訴訟法，甚至公平交易委員會都有行政調查權，那這些有行政調查權或司法調查權的機關，其實他們也會特別要求，如果有違反這些調查義務，像是無故缺席，或是實問虛答，甚至做偽證，都課以行政處罰以及刑法都有相關的罪責處罰。"],["陳次長明堂：我跟委員報告一下，不是全部都罪責，有的是行政罰、有的是刑事罰……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，行政處罰嘛，行政處罰就是課以罰鍰……"],["陳次長明堂：各個構成要件不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，謝謝，先請次長回座。","接下來想請秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長，我想您應該不會否認，調查權應該是國家重要權力機關行使的重要核心權力。"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["周秘書長萬來：就第585號解釋，立法調查權是我們的權力。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那請問一下，我們立法權的核心價值在哪裡？"],["周秘書長萬來：就是行使人民所賦予的職權。"],["翁委員曉玲：包含什麼？包含立法權、質詢權等等要監督行政機關施政的重要權力。"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：行使這些重要的職權，難道我們不應該要在取得充分且完整的資訊前提上，才能夠去執行我們的職權，是吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：那怎麼樣取得這些充分完整的資訊呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：原來第325號解釋只有文件調閱，那現在有第585號解釋以後，我們有比較大的空間，調查權比較擴大了，立法院的職權行使比較廣泛。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您基本上也肯認，除了文件調閱權之外，應該還要有立法院的立法調查權，這個部分應該也是屬於我們講的立法院行使國政調查權其中一個很重要的核心權力，對吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我們國民黨以及民眾黨委員第一次所提出來的相關國會改革法案裡面，其實無非就是要強化，將過去大法官在第585號解釋裡面所說的，要將立法調查權法制化，而這個法制化的程序其實已經拖了太久了，已經非常多年都沒有好好去討論，所以我認為這不是一個新的議題，而是長期以來大家不斷在討論，也希望能夠積極立法的一個議題，我也看了過去法制局所做的非常完整的報告。既然調查權這麼重要，對於不配合調查的相關人士，您認為該不該予以處罰？"],["周秘書長萬來：在第585號解釋裡面就有強制手段。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以科處罰鍰這個部分應該是合憲而且合法的，當然現在委員所提出來的版本各有不同，對於罰鍰的額度各有不同，對於是否要處以刑責的部分，剛剛秘書長其實也說了，也都尊重立法委員各個不同的立法法案，因為這個基本上並沒有違憲，在其他國家也都有做，有些國家就是直接有行政處罰併合刑法的相關規定。這個部分來講，我認為不管從憲法的層次、從法律的層次來講，我們現在所提出來國會改革的相關權力，這是必要的，因為這個是落實立法權核心非常重要的一個權力，沒有違憲的問題，沒有違憲的問題！除了立法調查權之外，對於總統來進行國情報告部分，上次本席也有請教秘書長，您也同意這是一個權責相符的做法，所以對於接下來星期三可能要併案審查的國會改革相關法案來說，其實並沒有任何違反憲法規定的疑慮。對於民進黨委員們所提出來的國會改革法案，就本席看來，不過就是對於立法院內部的自律以及行為所提出的相關修法，但是並沒有辦法真的去落實或是去強化國會監督行政機關或各個不同權力機關的權力，那這個部分是這次包含民眾黨以及國民黨黨團及委員所提出國會改革法案最重要的目的，就是要能夠強化我們立法院去監督各個不同的行政部門機關，我們要有足夠的工具，才能夠真的去瞭解政府的施政及缺失，以及他們所做的相關行政措施是不是有任何需要改進的地方，這是這次我們訂定國會監督法案裡面非常重要的一部分。","最後，我再引用韋伯這個非常知名的德國哲學家及法哲學家，他曾經說過一句名言：國會若欠缺對事實的調查權，將會做出合憲卻外行而且愚笨的判斷。這個部分就是提醒立法院，當我們希望能夠做出聰明且合法合憲的判斷時，必須要有足夠的事實調查權。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：下一位請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.063468750000002,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.234718750000003,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.73721875000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.28909375,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.17471875000001,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.93721875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.41721875,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.33221875000001,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.03159375000001,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":106.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.90034375,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.06909375000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.62971875000001,"end":121.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.74034375000002,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.07346875000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.42346875,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.43409375000002,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.72909375,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.42846875,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.25284375,"end":173.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.10846875000001,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.53409375,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.70971875,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.43909375,"end":197.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.02971875,"end":197.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.72159375,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.10409375,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.91409375,"end":208.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.50471875000002,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.63971875000001,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.31471875000003,"end":209.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.65221875,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.05659375000002,"end":218.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.01784375000003,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.10596875000002,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.51909375000002,"end":226.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.15159375000002,"end":247.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.94034375,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.19721875000002,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.95846875,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.49846875000003,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.82659375000003,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.31971875,"end":258.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.90096875,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.91784375000003,"end":265.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.02659375,"end":287.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.88471875,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.35721875,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.62221875,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.03409375,"end":310.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.56534375,"end":307.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.83471875000004,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.28221875,"end":336.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.51409375000003,"end":338.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.11721875,"end":344.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.69846875,"end":350.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.86659375000005,"end":404.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.74409375000005,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.45034375,"end":430.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.13659375000003,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.69221875000005,"end":486.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.02659375,"end":493.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.99596875000003,"end":510.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.12409375000004,"end":512.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.38534375,"end":514.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.4822187500001,"e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«立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":369.031,"end":369.071,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":384.07,"end":384.51,"text":"國會改革權利"},{"start":402.466,"end":402.586,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":421.374,"end":439.48,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":439.74,"end":462.593,"text":"委員們他們所提出來的國會改革法案就本席看來他不過就是說對於立法院內部的自律以及行為所提出的這個相關的修法但是並沒有辦法真的去落實或是去強化國會監督行政機關或各個不同權利機關的權利那這個部分的話是我們這次"},{"start":467.296,"end":486.087,"text":"包括民眾黨以及國民黨黨團及委員這裡所提出國會改革法案最重要的目的就是要能夠強化我們立法院去監督各個不同的行政部門這個機關我們要有足夠的工具"},{"start":487.168,"end":487.669,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"},{"start":514.794,"end":515.576,"text":"一（委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":522.268,"end":546.13,"text":"國會若欠缺對事實的調查權將會做出合憲卻外行而且愚笨的判斷。這個部分就是提醒我們立法院當我們要希望我們能夠做出聰明而且合法合憲的判斷的時候必須要有足夠的事實調查權。以上謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0028730b95990757a91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a60aec3227c6a1e6575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"12:10:52 - 12:21:45","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:21:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:10:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時10分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。想必部長一定知道，戰鬥個裝裡面抗彈板的裝置是保護國軍官兵性命安全最基礎，也是最重要的裝備吧？"],["邱部長國正：裝備之一，是，保護……"],["林委員憶君：所以本席今天想要針對下一代MIT國造的抗彈板，有幾個問題想要請教部長。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["林委員憶君：針對目前國軍使用軍用抗彈板的問題，本席辦公室上週有特別求證，並請教過軍備局。所以本席想要請教部長，目前國防部使用新的國造抗彈板，他們的防護標準是採用美國司法學院所頒布的執法人員防護標準，也就是NIJ防護分級做標準，沒有錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯。"],["林局長文祥：報告委員，我們現在是採取美軍ESAPI最新的一個測試標準。"],["林委員憶君：好，國防部如果能參照美國軍用的標準，那為什麼不直接採用美國軍用標準呢？因為這個說法可能會讓很多社會大眾誤以為你們真的有採用美軍ESAPI的測試方法。下一代抗彈板的測試是能防護5.56口徑的鋼芯彈，但是美軍ESAPI的測試標準要測試4種彈藥，裡面唯一5.56的口徑是穿甲彈，那種貫穿力完全是不同的啊！","更何況這個NIJ防護分級的標準是用在針對像警察這類的執法人員，因應任務需求所訂下來的標準，可是我們的軍隊要作戰用的抗彈板跟警察執行任務的環境應該是不一樣的，那怎麼我們國軍會用與警察執行任務使用的防護標準相同呢？這樣對我們國軍未來萬一發生了戰爭，對他們的安全性、保護性，這樣會足夠嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是。我跟委員報告，它雖然對象是警察或者軍人，但這個抗彈的功能是可以適應的，我請軍備局局長跟你做說明，好不好？。"],["林局長文祥：委員好，軍備局局長報告。跟委員報告，我們第一代的戰鬥個裝是在105年研發，也是我們國軍第一次的研發，剛剛委員講的沒有錯，我們是採取司法協會NIJ的測試標準，因為是我們第一次的研發。","到了去年，我們更進步地，也是上一個會期王定宇召委建議我們，如同委員剛剛所建議的是一模一樣的，我們應該要採取美軍最新的ESAPI的測試報告。所以我們已經按照ESAPI的測試標準，在去年年底已經研發成新一代的3　plus的抗彈板，它可以抵抗中共5.8，現在我們的口徑是5.56，中共的是5.8口徑，它的抗彈能力，在去年都已經完成測評。我們現在在大福兵所設置的，就是按照去年召委所建議我們的，按照美軍最新的ESAPI的測試標準來做測試，來保護我們官兵的安全，以上報告。"],["林委員憶君：所以我們現在軍規抗彈板應該是直接採用軍規的標準了吧？"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["邱部長國正：對，用軍規的。"],["林委員憶君：是嘛？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["林委員憶君：因為軍隊的作戰環境跟警察執法的環境是不一樣的啦！軍隊是要面對威力更強的戰鬥步槍嘛！因為敵人都會丟擲手榴彈，還有各種大小的砲彈的破片，甚至有自殺無人機的攻擊，這些都是警察執法人員幾乎不可能遇到的情況。所以現在已經確定是用軍用的標準？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好。再來，根據3月24號媒體的報導，國軍明年開始，就是像剛才說的，量產下一代國造的抗彈板嘛！所以應該是能抵擋3發國造TC74，也是相當於北約標準的M855鋼芯彈的射擊，是嗎？"],["林局長文祥：是。報告委員，就是比照我們最新的ESAPI，ESAPI就是每一個抗彈板都是要打3發固定標準的。"],["林委員憶君：是。"],["林局長文祥：現在都完全跟剛剛委員所指導，跟北約一致的標準了，以上報告。"],["林委員憶君：好。所以現在我有一個問題，就是現役抗彈板的測試方法，我稍微看一下報告，7.62口徑是做測試嘛？"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["林委員憶君：根據國防部在去年7月11號的記者會上說法，能擋住7.62口徑子彈，就可以擋住共軍5.8的口徑，是不是這樣呢？因為最近我發現了，新的標準是用更小的5.56口徑來打，如果按照你們去年在記者會上面的說法，5.8口徑的貫穿力已經不如7.62的口徑，那到底國軍抗彈板的防護標準是在開倒車呢？還是國防部終於意識到子彈的貫穿力跟口徑是沒有直接的關係呢？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，我們子彈就是有牽涉到一個彈頭的部分。剛剛委員所指導的沒有錯，7.62是普通彈，我們剛剛講的5.8是鋼芯彈，它是鋼裡面有包鎢芯的，所以它的動能是不一樣的，剛剛委員講的指導是沒有錯。我們最新發展出來的，就是要抵擋5.8公釐的中共鋼芯彈，所以彈藥有區分，一個是普通彈，一個是鋼芯彈，以上報告。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。我還有一個問題想請教一下，就是新式的抗彈板大概是比照NIJ第七版的RF2的防護標準，大概是第六版的第3和第4級之間，但是歐美主流現在國家的軍用都是已經至少到4級以上的防護標準了嘛？針對這方面，是不是就不要參照，就是我們直接照這樣的規則去處理？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，我們按照各軍種的作戰需求，跟我們亞洲人的一個型態，跟我們國人的型態，現在4級的抗彈板一片就4.2公斤，兩片都8.4公斤，我們已經有去參訪，也有看過美軍的，美軍的全套大概16公斤左右。再考量到國人的身材跟體格，我們是以抵擋中共5.8鋼芯彈，而且讓我們的官兵可以背得動、機動力強，然後來保護自己的安全，所以我們配備最新的3 plus，一片大概只有2公斤。我們會結合最新的陶瓷材料來完成，去年都已經完成了研發，以上報告。"],["林委員憶君：好。所以剛才軍備局說的，是4級的抗彈板太重，是不是？"],["林局長文祥：是。"],["林委員憶君：所以到年底了，美國援助臺灣還有8萬套戰鬥個裝，全部都是ESAPI防護標準的抗彈板，但它是比NIJ的4級還高，重量也是比較重。如果依照國防部這樣的說法，那為什麼我們還要接受美國這一批重量過重、不符合需求的戰鬥個裝呢？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我們抗彈的功能只要有的話，我們都可以採用，它雖然重量不同，但材質一定可以抵擋，具有保護作用為著眼。所以現在他就算拿來，我們也會分配到不同的單位層級，有些單位要輕便一點，它一樣可以做一個防彈功能。它雖然重，但假如有工作比較能夠讓它負荷重一點，在做同樣工作的，我們把這些單位選項出來，通通會妥為運用，絕對是可用的軍品，不是那些廢品，這跟委員做說明。也不是我們照單全說，要、給、不給，或給什麼，也是雙方共同討論出來的，不會單方面來決定。"],["林委員憶君：有沒有考慮在我們還沒有研發生產之前，為了軍事的超前部署，建議可以跟美國購買，還是有生產能力的國家購買？據了解一片美軍ESAPI等級的抗彈板大概成本是600美元，以國軍自願役的戰鬥部隊15.5萬人來說，幫他們每人買一片的話，大概是9,300萬美元。這個金額聽起來好像很貴，但問題是，如果以我們最近向美國購買的F-16戰機，平均一架1.2億美元，這樣來相比較，好像是比較負擔得起的，部長你覺得呢？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，這個軍品採購，因為它的任務、功能不同，而會有取捨。假使以這個價格來講的話，同樣錢可以買到更多小零件，那我們買那麼多小零件，又沒有在這方面發揮那麼大功能的話，我們就要選項，當然選擇這種戰鬥機這一類的，這是個例子。所以國軍不管是從自建到採購，到軍品獲得等等，一定是有程序的。雖然有不一樣的標準，或者人家要求層級不一樣，但我們也會依據不同的層級，發到不同層級的單位去，讓他在執行任務當中，穿戴這些抗彈功能的裝備，也一樣通通能夠來執行。不會講過重了，走不動了，不會！所以我們都會做調整，這一點特別跟委員做個說明。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長說明，本席就到此。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員。徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員。王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請洪孟楷。洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請吳思瑤。吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鄭正鈐。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蘇清泉。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純。何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請張啓楷。張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","請邱志偉。邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請羅智強。羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","請鍾佳濱。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳玉珍。陳玉珍、陳玉珍委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員除不在場以外，均發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。本日委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員；委員另指定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.64721875,"end":27.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.11534375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.36721875,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.492843750000006,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.159093750000004,"end":46.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.75596875,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.877843750000004,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.61534375000001,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.04096875,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.93096875,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.35221875,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.09221875,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.22784375,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.23159375,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.05721875,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.15659375,"end":149.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.71221875,"end":152.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.00284375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.03221875,"end":226.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.55659375000002,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.40409375000002,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.43784375,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.07909375000003,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.31534375,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.78159375,"end":255.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.29909375000003,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.67346875000004,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.35409375,"end":281.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.38784375,"end":281.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.40471875000003,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.63659375000003,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.85596875000005,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.42971875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":298.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.64346875,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.74784375,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.80221875,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.07096875,"end":311.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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有請部長請邱部長議員好"},{"start":13.833,"end":32.01,"text":"部長,想必部長一定知道戰鬥各裝裡面的抗彈板的裝置是保護國軍官兵性命安全最基礎也是最重要的裝備吧?所以本席今天想要針對下一代的MIT國造的抗彈板有幾個問題想要請教部長"},{"start":35.673,"end":60.993,"text":"針對目前國軍使用的軍用抗彈板的問題本席辦公室上週有特別求證並請教過軍備局所以本席想要請教部長目前國防部使用新的國造抗彈板他們的防護標準是採用美國司法學院所頒布的執法人員防護標準也就是NIJ防護分級做標準沒有錯吧"},{"start":61.963,"end":65.728,"text":"報告委員我們現在是採取現在美軍最新的ISAPI的最新的一個測試的標準"},{"start":77.941,"end":93.11,"text":"國防部如果能參照美國軍用的標準那為什麼不直接採用美國軍用標準呢?因為這個說法可能會讓很多社會大眾誤以為你們真的有採用美軍的ISAPI的測試方法"},{"start":94.131,"end":100.974,"text":"但是下一代的抗彈板的測試是能防護5.56口徑的鋼芯彈但是美軍ISAB的測試標準要測試4種彈藥裡面唯一5.56的口徑是穿甲彈那種貫穿力完全是不同的更何況這個NIJ的防護分級的標準是用在針對像警察之類的執法人員因應任務需求所定下來的標準可是我們的軍隊要作戰用的抗彈板"},{"start":123.883,"end":127.748,"text":"跟警察執行任務的環境應該是不一樣的"},{"start":129.093,"end":153.772,"text":"那怎麼我們國軍會用與警察執行任務使用的防護標準相同呢?這樣對我們國軍未來萬一發生了戰爭對他們的安全性保護性這樣會足夠嗎?事務官委員報告他雖然是對向警察或者軍人但這個抗彈的功能是可以適應的我是請這個軍備局局長跟您做說明一下好不好?"},{"start":154.372,"end":181.022,"text":"委員好 軍備局局長報告跟委員報告我們第一代的戰鬥各裝是在105年研發也是我們國軍第一次的研發我們採取的是美國剛剛委員講的沒有錯我們是採取司法協會MIJ的測試的標準因為是我們第一次的研發那到了我們去年的時候我們更進步的也是上一個會期我們的王定宇交委建議我們剛剛如同"},{"start":182.262,"end":203.304,"text":"委員剛剛所建議的是一模一樣的我們應該要採取美軍最新的ISAPI的一個測試報告所以我們現在今年我們去年已經按照ISAPI的一個測試的一個標準在去年年底已經研發成我們新一代的43PLUS的抗彈板它可以抵抗中共5.8"},{"start":204.885,"end":222.456,"text":"現在我們的口徑是5.56中共是5.8口徑的它的一個抗彈的能力那在去年都已經完成測評我們現在在大湖濱所設置的就是按照去年召委所建議我們的按照美軍最新的ISAPI的一個測試的標準來做測試來保護我們官兵的一個安全以上報告"},{"start":227.631,"end":239.338,"text":"所以我們現在軍規抗彈版應該是直接採用軍規的標準了吧?是因為軍隊的作戰環境還是跟警察執法的環境是不一樣的啦因為軍隊上面是要面對跟威力更強的戰鬥步槍嘛因為敵人都會丟擲手"},{"start":245.842,"end":245.882,"text":"主席"},{"start":263.353,"end":265.235,"text":"根據3月24日媒體的報導,國軍明年開始量產下一代國造的抗彈板,所以應該是能抵擋三發國造TC-74,也是相當於北約標準的M855的剛性彈的設計,是嗎?"},{"start":284.316,"end":298.469,"text":"報告委員就是比照我們最新的一沙皮的一沙皮的就是每個抗彈板都是要打三發固定標準的現在都完全跟剛剛委員所指導跟北約都一起的標準的一沙皮報告"},{"start":302.867,"end":305.69,"text":"所以現在我有一個問題就是現役的抗彈板的測試方法我稍微看一下報告就是7.62口徑是做測試根據的國防部在去年的時候7月11號的記者會上面有說法說能擋住7.62口徑子彈就可以擋住共軍的5.8的口徑是不是這樣呢"},{"start":327.768,"end":327.808,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":352.214,"end":379.332,"text":"我們子彈就是有一個牽涉到一個彈頭的部分我們剛剛委員所指導的沒有錯它7.6是普通彈那我們剛剛講的5.8的是鋼芯彈它是裡面鋼裡面是包烏芯的所以它的動能是不一樣的這個是剛剛委員講的指導是沒有錯然後我們最新發展出來的就是要抵擋5.8公里的中共的鋼芯彈所以彈藥有區分一個是普通彈"},{"start":379.992,"end":382.093,"text":"我還有一個問題想請教一下新式的抗彈版大概是比照NIJ第7版的RF2的防護標準大概是第6版的第3和第4級之間但是歐美主流現在國家的軍用都是已經至少到4級以上的防護標準了嗎"},{"start":408.664,"end":410.586,"text":"跟委員報告我們按照我們"},{"start":423.786,"end":441.392,"text":"各軍種的作戰需求跟我們亞洲人的一個形態跟我們國人的形態在目前四級的抗戰板它一片就4.2公斤兩片都8.4公斤我們已經有去參訪我們也有看過了美軍的美軍的全套大概16公斤左右"},{"start":441.832,"end":464.782,"text":"那再考量到我們國人的身材跟體格我們是以抵擋中共5.8剛性彈而且讓我們的官兵可以揹得動機動力強然後來保護自己的安全所以我們的配備最新的3Plus的一片大概只有2公斤我們會結合最新的陶瓷的材料來完成去年都已經完成了一個研發以上報告"},{"start":468.809,"end":494.35,"text":"所以其實剛才這樣說的軍備局這樣說的是4級的抗彈板太重是不是?所以到連結的美國援助台灣其實還有8萬套戰鬥各裝全部都是一沙坪的防護標準的抗彈板但是它是比NIJ的4級還高重量也是比較重但如果依照國防部這樣的說法那為什麼我們還要接受美國這一批重量過重不符合需求的戰鬥的各裝呢?"},{"start":498.086,"end":524.237,"text":"報告委員,我們抗彈的功能,只要有的話我們都可以採用,它雖然重量不同,但它材質一定可以抵擋,具有保護作用,這為左眼。所以現在它就算拿來,我們也是可以分配到不同的單位層級,有些單位要輕便一點,它一樣可以作為防彈功能,但它雖然重,"},{"start":525.498,"end":550.425,"text":"但假如他有工作比較能夠讓他符合重點在做同樣工作的我們把這些單位把他給顯像出來通通會妥為運用但絕對是一個可用的軍品不是那些廢品這跟委員做說明他也不是說我們照單全收要給不給或給什麼也是雙方共同討論出來的不會單方面來決定"},{"start":553.274,"end":555.978,"text":"那有沒有考慮說在我們還沒有研發生產之前為了軍事的超前部署建議可以跟美國購買生產能力的還是有生產能力的國家購買據瞭解一片美軍一沙皮等級的抗彈板大約成本是600美元"},{"start":570.137,"end":574.04,"text":"以國軍自願役的戰鬥部隊15.5萬人來說其實幫他們每人買一片的話大概是9300萬美元這個金額其實聽起來好像很貴但是問題是如果我們最近向美國購買的F16戰機平均一架是1.2億美元這樣來相比較似乎好像是比較負擔得起的那部長你覺得呢"},{"start":592.814,"end":610.945,"text":"軍品採購因為它的任務功能不同而會有取捨加上以價格來講的話同樣的錢可以買到更多小零件那我們買那麼多小零件又沒有在這方面發揮那麼大功能的話那我們就要選項當然選擇戰鬥機這一類的這是個例子所以國軍不管是從製件到採購到軍品獲得等等"},{"start":620.25,"end":647.886,"text":"他一定是程序的,雖然有不一樣的標準或者人家要求層級不一樣,但我們也會依據不同的層級發到不同層級的單位去,讓他在執行他的任務當中穿載這些抗彈功能的裝備,也一樣能夠通通來執行。不會講過重啦,走不動啦,不會,所以我們都會做調整,這一點特別跟委員做說明。"},{"start":649.208,"end":649.528,"text":"謝謝部長說明"}]}},{"id":"150790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c058e2f930b4e4aca682ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6b67cecec6b19759e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:13:43 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跟委員報告對於這個因為這艘船目前停在蘇澳港的13號的碼頭那我們跟港公司還有港警海巡都24小時在掌握這個環球鑽石號的這個船礦"},{"start":80.282,"end":94.322,"text":"那另外為了確保他的這個安全我們港公司第一個是加強這個繫廊那另外對於他停靠的這個碼頭也希望把目前13號能夠移駁到內港的2號碼頭"},{"start":97.746,"end":123.441,"text":"來降低受封面的影響目前都在進行中另外特別有個重點跟委員報告因為積欠油料的問題經過航港局跟港務公司我們協助船東來跟油料商來協調目前已經在29號達成共識和解由船東支付30萬美元的和解金"},{"start":124.261,"end":140.686,"text":"所以預計在最慢在4月底之前會駛離蘇澳港那目前據船代的回報大概船東在12號之前就會備託這個船員目前最新的這個預報是12號預計在月中就可以駛離這個蘇澳港4月中"},{"start":147.429,"end":161.749,"text":"請我們局長這部分要持續去追蹤因為現在目前這艘船他在那個水線以上已經發現一個70公分的裂痕70公分的裂痕我們那個"},{"start":162.95,"end":172.764,"text":"相關單位都有在密切追蹤可是這70公分的列人怕會衍生到最後這艘船如果還沒駛離之前會不會沉沒的問題那還有226噸的重油還在這個船上"},{"start":178.311,"end":200.647,"text":"那剛剛局長您也說了在這個月中的時候這艘船應該會完成相關的程序會駛離可是他的船員是在1月19號已經全部遣返了那遣返之後你現在這些船員完全沒有保留一般來講應該是要保留三分之一左右的人力在那邊可是他是完全沒有保留"},{"start":201.027,"end":226.047,"text":"那你現在所有的船員要全部再招募回來才有辦法去讓這艘船重新啟動這個動力所以這個部分我也請我們這個航港局這邊應該要去掌握不然未來這個船如果發生重大事故的話不曉得誰要去承受這個責任謝謝委員提醒這個部分我們會提早來督促這個船方做好準備那提早讓船員掌握這個船舶的這個狀況"},{"start":227.817,"end":239.53,"text":"好 因為在這個颱風季節快到了啦那因為他目前這一艘船齁我希望我們一定要密切去注意就因為他只有15條纜繩拉住這一艘船"},{"start":242.421,"end":261.568,"text":"那目前已經有兩條是已經斷裂了啦那一條纜繩大概可以支付的這個可以支應的這個重量大概30噸那等同大概450噸的這個耐力而已那在17級的這個陣風的時候以每平方公尺499公斤來計算的話大概是1200噸的這個風力所以颱風季節來之前這一艘船一定要駛離有沒有問題"},{"start":271.311,"end":289.298,"text":"我們現在就是朝月中就離蘇澳港的目標來努力那針對這艘船的相關問題我也希望說我們這個航港局這邊可以跟我們縣政府還有這個海軍部分都要知會讓他們知道這艘船的情況共同來把這個問題解決"},{"start":290.638,"end":317.009,"text":"有 謝謝委員 這部分我們跟縣府還有這個海軍縣長駐地的單位都有這個資源的協定保持密切聯繫好 這個局長就要拜託你有 謝謝委員提醒另外那個部長我想請教因為防汛期也將到了那針對宜蘭縣有兩座大橋急需競速來改善一座當然就是我們的南陽大橋那另一座是葛馬蘭大橋"},{"start":318.59,"end":346.786,"text":"那針對這個部分我們有沒有相關的期程現在在設計中我請局長跟你說好請局長跟委員報告蘭陽大橋其實我們基本上檢測是沒有問題不過就是說因為下豪大雨的時候其實有時候會淹到橋面那我們大概就是說主要要配合就是說那個經濟部水利署他有那個蘭陽溪的河川治理計畫所以他的大概兩底的高度我們要做相關的一個抬高那目前已經在進行相關的一個設計工作"},{"start":347.987,"end":377.555,"text":"那我們大概要到明年的這一個12月會完成這個設計基本上這個蘭陽大橋就是說我們完成設計後就會進速來發包那另外一個耿馬仁橋的話其實他在這個目前是做環評那在今年的10月份大概會通過環評那環評審查之後我們就會做一樣會做細部設計那預計是在跟這兩座橋大概都在明年大概下半年會來做相關的一個發包施工"},{"start":378.1,"end":396.678,"text":"好 確定都沒問題嗎目前我們都已經照進度在做相關的一個設計好 局長那剛剛針對南陽大橋跟格馬蘭大橋的部分是不是會又可以給我一份完整的資料沒問題 沒問題包括它的期程跟相關設計還有這個什麼時候要開工什麼時候會完工的部分好 沒問題好 謝謝部長 謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"150789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0f3b14000c39ee83325a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6b00dc349e71b59095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:15:08 - 12:20:58","影片長度":"00:05:50","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":350,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:20:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:15:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1157,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時15分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。寶林的食安事件，目前其實民眾還是非常恐慌，然後很多事情我覺得好像也是疑雲重重，大家很多資訊都有點搞不太清楚，我現在整理一些資訊，想就教部長。第一個，有人對「米酵菌酸」這個名稱有意見，現在好像引起很多對米製品業者的影響，也造成很多喜愛米製品的民眾的恐慌，那到底它該不該叫米酵菌酸呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以討論，因為事實上，這個大概是直接從一些華文文獻上面已有的範例採過來的，但是不是最好的一個翻譯，我是覺得有討論的空間。"],["羅委員智強：好。從這邊再衍生下一個問題，你看我們這個翻譯，可能是因為大陸有案例，就從這些案例引用過來，下一個問題就是，現在有很多討論說到底這個源頭是不是來自於境外，因為目前看到的案例就是包括印尼、大陸跟莫三比克，都曾經有類似的案例，那臺灣目前是首例，那這個源頭是不是來自於境外呢？有沒有證據顯示？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是沒有證據顯示它的來源就是來自境外，第一個，唐菖蒲伯克氏菌在國內本來就有，但是國內有的亞型又不會自己跑出來分泌米酵菌酸，所以到底它的來源是哪裡，這個其實也還是一個問號。這個菌是否是從國外進來？從哪一個地方進來？有可能是從國外進來，但是從哪個地方進來，事實上現在是不知道。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得這個資訊也很重要，因為我現在看到很多綠營的朋友，就是抗中保臺魂上身，連到底是從哪裡進來、是不是臺灣本身既有的菌種、產生什麼狀況，統統不知道，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在還沒有證實。"],["羅委員智強：他們馬上就抗中保臺魂上身，我看有的就直接講說是從中國大陸那邊過來的，我覺得大可不必啦。","再下一個問題，我想請教部長，上次那個西布特羅的風波到最後的結論是什麼？我看到最後停下來的結論就是說，不排除有實驗室污染，但也不能證明有實驗室污染嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有辦法直接有證據證明說這是一個實驗室污染。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是其實也沒有辦法排除。"],["羅委員智強：所以我直接講了，這個事情好像到現在為止變成懸案了，未解嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：可以，某一個程度是可以這樣講。"],["羅委員智強：對。","下一個問題，部長，不管是你們這邊還是各縣市政府，其實該檢驗的大概都檢驗完了吧，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多。"],["羅委員智強：可是就是沒有發現到底是哪個來源來的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員智強：那請問，目前為止，我們政府能做的還剩下什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：還是必須要介入調查，因為目前可以確定的就是這是米酵菌酸引起來的。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個可以確定的是，這些病人共同食用的東西就是粿條，目前就是這樣，但是粿條的來源廠商都沒有驗出來，添加物也都沒有，所以現在調查的重點就是，究竟在發生事情的時候，當時被吃進去的這些粿條到底做了哪一些處理？還有它的保存到底是什麼樣子？也許那些才是產生米酵菌酸的條件，這個部分的話還在調查當中。"],["羅委員智強：大概需要多少時間？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是檢察官手上調查的事項。"],["羅委員智強：我直接講結論，我看到部裡面很多的說法，那當然民眾會擔心，到最後如果你沒有辦法查到源頭的話，那不是又變成一樁懸案？"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能。"],["羅委員智強：其實真的民眾很無奈啊。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。但是不管怎麼樣，我們知道它是從粿條來的，那其他的製品風險大概就變少。粿條經過什麼樣的處理過程才會產生這個東西？不管怎麼樣，我們調查出來的結果，一定是說它曾經經過廚師怎麼樣去處理，所以才會有這樣的結果。"],["羅委員智強：我最後問你一個問題，目前大家說到下毒的可能性，我看部裡認為可能性不高嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：不高。"],["羅委員智強：看起來應該就是米酵菌酸造成的。"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道什麼樣的處理過程產生出來的，那這個部分的話，如果最後沒有一個確切的答案的話，對整個處理過程我們就會加以檢視，說以後不能採用這樣子的方法處理，並指出應該用什麼樣的方式處理。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝部長。其實最後就是一個結論，不要讓它變懸案，懸案最可怕，好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["羅委員智強：好。謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.45159375,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.10034375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.78784375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.07346875,"end":25.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.01409375,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.72846875,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":103.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.49471875,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.16534375,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.16846875,"end":124.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.12971875000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.73721875000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":129.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.69846875000002,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.82409375,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.99909375000001,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.04534375,"end":162.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.72284375,"end":176.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.45909375000002,"end":183.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18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有所以現在調查的重點就是究竟說在發生事情的時候這些當時被吃進去的這些果條到底做了哪一些的處理還有它的保存到底是什麼樣子也許那些才是產生米酵菌酸的一個條件"},{"start":267.057,"end":286.846,"text":"那這個部分的話還在調查大概需要多少時間因為這個是在檢察官的手上在調查的事項大概是這個我直接講結論啦我看到部裡面很多的說法那當然民眾會擔心到最後如果你沒有辦法查到源頭的話那不是又變成一樁懸案"},{"start":288.227,"end":310.446,"text":"有可能那其實真的民眾很無奈啊但是不管怎麼樣我們知道說它是果條來的那其他的製品大概就可以那個風險就變少那果條會經過什麼樣處理的過程才會產生這個東西不管怎麼樣我們調查出來的結果一定是說它曾經經過"},{"start":312.107,"end":326.912,"text":"我最後問你一個問題目前大家說下毒的可能性我看布里說認為是不高嘛對不對不高所以看起來就是應該是米酵菌栓的狀況不知道什麼樣的一個處理的過程那產生出來的"},{"start":327.512,"end":347.903,"text":"那這個部分的話如果說最後沒有一個確確的答案的話那就是這整個處理過程我們就會加以警示說以後不能採用這樣子的方法應該用什麼樣的方法謝謝部長其實最後就一個結論啦不要讓它變懸案懸案最可怕好嗎對好謝謝好謝謝羅智強委員"}]}},{"id":"150788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c046e3fd9024942fec25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6eb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:04:41 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12:15:02","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":621,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:15:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:04:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1111,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時4分）好，謝謝主席。主席。我請一下薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：假如各位署長或組長覺得應該幫部長回復，可以自行上來。","部長，我們剛剛探討電價，我其實是覺得蘇清泉委員剛剛講的部分區域醫院電價漲了以後，經營確實會有一些困難，對於這一點，部裡面可能要想辦法，看怎麼讓各醫療層級的醫院都可以很平順地運作。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有向行政院提出說醫界有這樣的訴求，當然最後還是要行政院依照相關的規定來做。"],["楊委員曜：剛剛講的是區域醫院，那地區醫院現在有沒有結論？像澎湖這一種，兩家那麼慘澹經營。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前都還沒定案。"],["楊委員曜：都還沒定案？對於經營上比較困難的醫院，電費調整確實是一個很大的問題，請部長盡力溝通。","部長，我們今天還是要講寶林茶室的問題，寶林茶室中毒案已經造成兩人死亡及多名重症患者，他們都有檢出罕見的米酵菌酸，何美鄉老師也講過，國際間像印尼、非洲、中國大概都有發生過類似的案件。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，曾經有。"],["楊委員曜：臺灣有很多食品的原料都是進口，所以米酵菌酸應該是透過食物鏈進來臺灣，到上個月29日記者會當天，粿條、香蘭葉、在來米粉都沒有驗出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：殘留的都沒有驗出來。"],["楊委員曜：對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那有沒有可能是在添加物？比如說醬汁。"],["薛部長瑞元：有在使用的這一些添加物我們也都驗了，也是沒有驗出來。"],["楊委員曜：也都驗了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那接下來怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為現在剩餘的這些，不管是食材或是添加物都驗了，沒有發現米酵菌酸，但是事實上病人身上又有發現，所以應該還是在這些人去食用的那一批，那一批裡面一定有米酵菌酸，這個應該是跑不掉，問題只是在是怎麼樣產生出來的，因為在我們扣案下來的這些都沒有驗出來，所以可能是都已經被吃完了，如果沒有吃完的，大概也都丟棄了。"],["楊委員曜：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以現在的調查就是在於說，這一些怎麼會跑出來，到底是在處理過程或者是保存的過程有機會產生米酵菌酸，這是我們現在調查的一個重點。"],["楊委員曜：就是說傷害的結果是有的嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那所有可能的證據，現在都找不到了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是說推論的比較確定的是，第一個，大概就是米酵菌酸引起的，因為這一些病人都有驗出來，這些嚴重的和死亡的病人都有驗出來，所以這個是比較可以稍微確定的。","第二個就是說，這些病人的共通點就是都有吃粿條，這個也是比較確定的，至於剛剛講的香蘭葉，不是每一個人都有食用，其他食材也不是每一個人都有食用，比較共通的就是粿條，所以目前大概是focus在這部分，也就是說，到底那一批粿條從19日到24日中間，保存跟烹飪的過程當中有沒有造成什麼樣的機會讓米酵菌酸產生出來，這大概是現在的調查重點。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，我們很難在這個事件裡面找到答案了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，事後要去找這一個的話，不容易。"],["楊委員曜：這個當然有它的困難點，因為幾乎沒有證物保存嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：好，假如是這樣子的話，那衛福部要如何做？這件事對於社會的衝擊還滿大的，米類的食物或澱粉類的相關食品到底要怎麼保存？因為沒有辦法從外觀和氣味來分辨米酵菌酸，我們怎麼讓一般民眾知道到底要如何防範？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個大概是這樣子，一般性的預防措施還是需要，有關米類、粿、粉等食物的一般保存要怎麼樣做，對於這部分我們會把指引定出來。"],["楊委員曜：把它做出來，然後加強宣導。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是要給民眾參考的，讓他們清楚。但是針對於這一次引發中毒的粿、粉，到底在操作的過程當中有沒有什麼可疑的情形才會導致米酵菌酸的產生，這個部分的指引是要給餐飲業的，這個目前還沒有辦法確定，所以還是要等進一步的調查，再去猜測最可能的原因是在哪裡，然後才能形諸文字給這些餐飲業去瞭解。"],["楊委員曜：有關寶林茶室這個案子，我自己在想要再去做很多證明，因為我們用因果關係去推論是推不出來的，可是又比較沒有辦法有科學上的東西……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有辦法直接去證明，可能會是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：對，那就變成這個案子很難做一個清楚的釐清，也因為這樣子，所以我剛才才會跟部長建議趕快把一般性的指引做出來，告訴民眾怎麼樣才比較不會再發生事故，做出指引然後趕快向國人做個宣導；業者應該要強化的就強化、應該要稽查的就稽查。"],["薛部長瑞元：業者的部分當然是比較困難一點，因為現在真正的原因還不知道，但是假設說真正的原因到後來也沒有一個結論的話，那就變成說在業者處理的過程當中必須注意哪一些，範圍就會比較廣泛一點，業者受到的拘束就會比較多，他們在處理食材和發揮創意上可能就會受到一些限制，這也沒有辦法，如果最後出來的結果並沒有辦法確定到底是哪一個步驟、哪一個流程出問題的話，最後大概就會變成這個樣子。"],["楊委員曜：好，我最後要跟部長建議一下，日本小林製藥的紅麴相關產品出問題，雖然我們沒有直接向該公司購入紅麴，可是有一些藥品的原料是從那邊來的，所以要怎麼儘速地清查、回收？還有，假如有必要的話，怎麼協助消費者向日本廠商求償？假如有產生一些消費糾紛，可能部裡也必須要提供協助。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，我們一定會協助，不過因為到目前為止還不知道到底裡面是什麼樣的東西，所以那個因果關係的判斷就會相當的困難。"],["楊委員曜：對，好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊曜委員的質詢。","接下來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.886593750000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.93096875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.250343750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.249718750000003,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.06284375,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.79221875,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.69034375000001,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.12909375000001,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.85159375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.65284375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.13659375,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.99221875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.27471875,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 請薛部長由署長、署長、各位署長、副署長或組長覺得應該幫部長回覆的就可以自行上來"},{"start":27.312,"end":31.855,"text":"部長,我們剛剛探討電價齁,那我其實是覺得蘇清泉委員剛剛講的部分的區域醫院的電價漲了以後,確實對於他們的經營會有一些困難齁。"},{"start":47.906,"end":72.423,"text":"這個部裡面可能要想辦法看怎麼讓各醫療層級的醫院都可以很平順的運作我們有向行政院提出說醫界有這樣的訴求當然最後還是要行政院依照相關的規定來做剛剛講的是區域醫院嘛那地區醫院現在有沒有結論"},{"start":73.755,"end":78.379,"text":"目前都還沒定案就是對於經營上比較困難的醫院電費的調整確實是一個很大的問題請部長盡力的溝通部長我們今天還是要"},{"start":97.711,"end":115.475,"text":"要來講寶林茶室的問題就是說寶林茶室的中毒案大概已經造成兩個國人的死亡然後多名重症患者大概都有檢出來罕見的"},{"start":119.178,"end":145.492,"text":"米肖峻酸像何美鄉老師他大概有講過國際間像印尼、非洲、中國大概都有發生過相類似的台灣因為有很多食品的原料都是進口所以在這個"},{"start":148.905,"end":173.927,"text":"在米酵菌酸的應該是透過食物鏈進來台灣目前是這樣子目前是我們大概在到29號我們的記者會果條香蘭葉、在來米粉大概都沒有驗出來"},{"start":176.39,"end":190.023,"text":"殘留的都沒有驗出來有沒有可能是在添加物例如說降脂他有在使用的這一些添加物我們的也都驗了也是沒有驗出來那接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":198.137,"end":222.328,"text":"因為現在剩餘的這些不管是食材或人家物都驗了沒有發現當然事實上病人身上又有發現所以應該還是在那一批這些人去食用的時候那一批裡面一定是有這個免消菌酸這個應該是跑不掉"},{"start":223.268,"end":250.155,"text":"只是說它怎麼樣產生出來的因為在我們扣案下來的這些都沒有驗出來所以可能有的都已經被吃完都被吃完了如果沒有吃完了大概也都丟棄了那所以現在的調查就是在於說那這一些怎麼會跑出來到底是在處理過程或者是保存的過程"},{"start":251.115,"end":269.626,"text":"有讓他有機會會有這個米酵菌酸的產生這是我們現在在調查的一個點就是說傷害的結果是有了嘛那原因的所有的可能證據現在我們都找不到了"},{"start":270.477,"end":293.426,"text":"對,就是說可以推論的、比較確定的一個東西是第一個,大概就是米酵菌酸引起的,因為這一些病人都有驗出來這些嚴重的死亡的病人都有驗出來,所以這個是比較可以稍微確定的那第二個就是說,這些病人共通的點就是都有吃過"},{"start":296.326,"end":313.95,"text":"這也是比較確定的至於剛剛講的香蘭葉不是每一個都有用那其他的也不是每一個人都有用比較共通的就是果條所以大概目前是focus在這樣子就是說到底那一批果條就19號到24號中間這一些果條它的"},{"start":321.209,"end":323.85,"text":"也就是說我們很難在這個事件裡面找到答案了"},{"start":341.637,"end":351.068,"text":"對事後事後要去找這一個的話這個當然當然當然有他的困困難點因為因為他他哎幾乎沒有證物保存嗎對哦"},{"start":353.958,"end":373.599,"text":"那假如這個是這樣子的話那我們衛福部這邊如何的讓因為這個對於社會的衝擊還蠻大的就是說在米類的食物或澱粉類的相關食品到底要怎麼"},{"start":374.74,"end":402.032,"text":"因為他大概沒有辦法從外觀和氣味來分別我們怎麼讓一般的民眾知道說到底要怎麼防範這個大概是這樣子一般性的這些預防措施的話還是需要就是說本來我們這一類的食物像是米類或是果粉"},{"start":403.252,"end":424.768,"text":"或等等這些食物的話在一般的保存要怎麼樣保存這個我們會把這個指引做出來這是要給民眾參考的讓他們清楚但是針對所謂的這一次的發生的這個果粉"},{"start":425.869,"end":439.445,"text":"到底在操作的過程當中有沒有什麼可疑的問題產生的情形產生才會導致米酵菌酸的產生這個是要給餐飲業的"},{"start":440.706,"end":463.458,"text":"這個要怎樣?給餐飲業的指引這個目前還沒有辦法確定所以還是要等到進一步的調查然後再去猜測說最可能的原因是在哪裡然後再才能夠把它行出文字然後給這些餐飲業去調查就是說寶林茶室這個案子因為我"},{"start":465.279,"end":484.014,"text":"我自己在想啦齁就是因為要再去做很多證明就是說我們用推論的因果關係是推得出來可是他比較沒有辦法有科學上的東西對沒有辦法直接去證明可能會是這個意思對那就變成"},{"start":485.015,"end":510.589,"text":"就變成這個案子很難做一個很清楚的釐清也因為這樣子所以我剛才才會跟部長建議說趕快把一般性的指引怎樣才比較不會再發生事故做出指引然後趕快向國人做個宣導跟業者應該要強化的就強化應該要稽查的就稽查"},{"start":511.95,"end":528.215,"text":"業者的部分當然是比較困難一點因為現在真正的原因還不知道但是假設說這個真正的原因到後來也沒有一個結論的話那就是變成說在業者處理的過程當中的話必須要注意哪一些就會變成會比較廣泛一點"},{"start":529.995,"end":553.95,"text":"那當然業者的話會變成說受到的拘束就會比較多那對於他們在處理這一個食材然後他們的創意的發揮可能就會受到一些限制那這沒有辦法如果說最後出來的結果並沒有辦法去說確定到底是哪一個步驟哪一個流程是出問題的話那最後大概就會變成這個樣子"},{"start":555.831,"end":577.883,"text":"好我最後跟部長因為食品的關係部長建議一下就是日本小林製藥的紅麴相關產品其實雖然我們沒有直接有紅麴的購入可是有一些藥品的材料是原料是從那邊來的所以"},{"start":582.105,"end":605.011,"text":"要怎麼儘速的清查、回收,還有假如有必要的話怎麼協助消費者,像日本,因為他是日本的廠商嘛,這可能,假如有啦,有產生一些消費糾紛,可能我們部體這邊也必須要提供書。"},{"start":606.647,"end":617.131,"text":"當然啦,我們一定會做協助,不過這個因為到目前為止還不知道到底它裡面是什麼樣東西所以那個因果關係的判斷就會相當困難好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c098b5d741c2ae95b4ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6c28002b7c9e729de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:03:56 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今天我們雖然是在討論怎麼促進金融保險業的資金投入公共建設社會住宅不過我們因為金門離島的基金在我們國發會主管所以我們現在本期是聚焦在民間企業參與金門投資開發的情形"},{"start":22.262,"end":23.666,"text":"這個審計部在110年金門縣總決算的審核報告裡頭有提到幾點其中一個是有關於"},{"start":34.506,"end":51.393,"text":"養生健康造物產業專區還有另外一個工商綜合專區的這些開發案都是久未進行開發或者已經預了這個開發的期程沒有積極列管或檢討變更回復沒有達到預期的這個效果"},{"start":53.534,"end":69.13,"text":"請問國發會這個泰偉工商綜合專區開案還有一個另外一個這個民間籌設護理和養生社區案兩個案子在民國99年及104年都是行政院核定的離島重大建設投資計畫為什麼到今天都沒有任何開發投資進度?國發會不用檢討嗎?"},{"start":72.718,"end":89.052,"text":"報告陳委員因為我主管的業務不是爆破立法那你找主管的是是然後我想這個案子是不是我們會後可以再跟給那個委員一個好那我想請問你好那我請問你你會要提供資料給我好那我想請問你這個有關你們的"},{"start":91.869,"end":92.809,"text":"我們請財政部一起上來"},{"start":122.186,"end":122.346,"text":"財政部?"},{"start":141.897,"end":153.592,"text":"這個部分離島建設開發基金的一個貸放這個部分是國發會啊是啊對所以今天才問他那他說他不知道但是我們想了解說臺灣的這個臺灣地區的這些銀行相關的這個業者是"},{"start":157.797,"end":172.698,"text":"銀行評估當然就要不給就民間到金門要去做投資相關的這個重大建設也是當然今天講社會之外但金門也是需要重大建設那銀行沒有去的原因是因為這個離島建設基金不配合去投入呢還是什麼原因"},{"start":175.262,"end":176.443,"text":"那金門的案件都一直沒有成功嗎?"},{"start":195.503,"end":222.081,"text":"對,沒有成功那當然我覺得我們第一個從那個前置作業裡面我們就可以做一些比如說金門地方要做這個促餐那在前置作業的時候可以做金融的補助對,對,對促餐上講過今天想是離島基金跟銀行的業者儘管會財政部轄下的管理的這些相關的業者應該配合著一起去做嘛如果銀行不願意去做或今天我想理解是銀行不願意或是我們離島基金不願意兩個部分都在這裡嘛"},{"start":222.261,"end":237.983,"text":"我們的宮古航庫在那個金門地區其實也有相當多的一個核貸情形跟委員報告是不是我們宮古航庫對金門的建設是比較不願意支持呢?還是離島基金不願意支持呢?對企業戶的核准的一個比例也都達到90%"},{"start":239.605,"end":240.305,"text":"並沒有說不願意做金門的地區"},{"start":270.606,"end":289.577,"text":"業者不想往前走還是他遇到困難銀行不支持或者離島基金不支持或者是業者本身就只是虛晃一朝這個我們都要了解好嗎提供相關資料可以嗎如果是虛晃一朝也趕快把這個東西變回原狀不要好像只是在金門圈地但是沒有時機要建設我們金門"},{"start":290.478,"end":298.701,"text":"好第二個問題這個我們請財政部請問這個您看一下這個表近5年我們金門縣課徵這個菸酒稅這個金額您看看108年20.27億多那到了最高的時候111年我們這個金門縣交的這個菸酒稅是36.4億交給中華民國的政府對那在這個之前呢"},{"start":316.636,"end":317.157,"text":"財政收支方法第8條第4項有說"},{"start":343.322,"end":357.229,"text":"按照現在這個劃分法對燕酒稅的分配規定我們金門縣政府每一年可以從中央獲得分配7.5到7.7億的燕酒稅收入你看看我們收到7.5到7.7億那我剛跟你說我們交多少錢呢"},{"start":358.536,"end":371.82,"text":"我們交多少錢?我們交到36.4億我們一年交給中央政府這個36點多億 36億只分配到7億多等於是我們一年多我們交給中央政府是多繳了29億多但是在這個"},{"start":374.485,"end":395.572,"text":"以前公賣制度以前我們不是這樣交的我們那時候每一瓶交64塊那現在我們交了以前的2.5倍啊這個應該是國庫署知道吧國庫署的那我看到你們在這個財政收支方法在有5次送到我們立法院來審議啊從這個你看這個資料裡頭從91年96年"},{"start":399.753,"end":420.789,"text":"九十一年、九十六年、九十七年、九十九年、一百零一年五次提案人是行政院你們提出來的這個修法因為現在的這個這個方法這樣對我們金門市比較不利的就是我們的我們交給臺北這邊是36億你們給我們只有7億多我們每年要多"},{"start":421.71,"end":443.197,"text":"就是原來這個公賣利那個時候用公賣利的時候不用繳這麼多那現在我們要繳比以前多但我們的收入比以前少你們分配給以前少所以貴院你們有提出來說要修改這個制度這個制度你有看到在你們的財化法裡頭這是左邊這個你們提出了5次左邊這個福建省金門及連江兩線"},{"start":444.983,"end":473.219,"text":"到時候收入減除1%作為這個積增和查緝費用後之80%分配給各該縣就是說我們交的應該要大部分都要回歸到我們金門縣這個比較符合這麼從民國90民國90幾年來公賣利益改成改成這個燕酒燕酒稅以後這麼10多年來我們總共這個交給中央多交了"},{"start":474.719,"end":502.807,"text":" 96年到現在18年過去我們等於是每一年都流血輸出給中央大概30億18年過去這樣一年30億一年20億好了也幾百億也是好幾百億等於是我們金門造成我們金門的財政衝擊我們金門現在財政不落以往以前當然都說金門縣是財力不錯但是因為我們這樣不停的流血輸出給臺北的這個中央政府所以金門的財政現在是比較辛苦所以你們提出的這個"},{"start":503.687,"end":504.328,"text":"您剛剛也提出來這個過往的修正的版本"},{"start":532.054,"end":538.318,"text":"因為最後沒有完成整個立法程序那未來在您提的這個建議未來在假設我們在做這個調整的機制的時候會一併納入考量整部修正不容易我想就這一條我們可以先來進行修正彌補金門來"},{"start":550.084,"end":550.104,"text":"委員．"},{"start":579.984,"end":581.466,"text":"我們先來修這個財政社會方法有關這個菸酒稅的部分"},{"start":596.263,"end":620.696,"text":"那協助我們今晚度過下去可能面臨的即將可能面臨的這個可能舉債的這個危機啊這個部分我們來提出來一起這個你們按照你們的願板來提出來這個請這個會部來支持齁財化法修正可能涉及到整體的分配機制是很難沒有我是說這一條先來修吧你回去研究一下吧你回去看一下吧好嗎好我們回去看一下謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":624.239,"end":631.375,"text":"好,謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。緊接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。王世堅本會委員質詢之後呢,我們就發放便當一邊進行質詢。"}]}},{"id":"150786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0bb6a5daa2f913be2ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6417f76de9673b42b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:52:24 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不應該造成公共建設的互相排擠是 我們都有標準SOP的信件非常的重要第二個部分"},{"start":103.633,"end":124.309,"text":"我看到的是未來8年我們還要再蓋13萬戶這13萬戶裡面直接興建的社宅要達到25萬戶所以目前為止中央到現在你說要在新區開發的部分包括區段徵收跟市地重劃要留5%我想問一下次長你現在預計這樣子的數量會有多少在你的未來13萬戶裡面佔多少比例"},{"start":126.851,"end":148.76,"text":"目前在陸續盤點正在推動中的區域重劃跟區段徵收大概有多少數量我現在還必須跟地方政府詳談因為實質上有一些所以你的13萬戶不包括這個包括當然包括但是你還不知道有多少就說話了一個13萬戶又來這個盤點還沒有到很精準所以我不方便直接講有多少次長"},{"start":149.62,"end":174.068,"text":"我們是先定了13萬戶再決定興趣開發不是這樣吧所以你的數量請你很清楚的告訴我們你的13萬戶怎麼來在怎麼樣的土地上面有這麼多的數量可以興建土地是當然有其實當然這背後還是搭配政府的量能我希望它不是一個大餅這看起來就是你應該知道有土地你也知道有興趣開發土地是絕對夠了"},{"start":175.729,"end":176.489,"text":"當然是,當然是,我們從來都不隨便說這些事情的。"},{"start":193.154,"end":193.274,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":220.995,"end":243.829,"text":"這是如果連這13萬戶或外來半年13萬戶包進來差不多就是要這樣一張我想問一下現在剛剛講的除了這13萬戶目前為止這些相關你要去融資的債是不是我們國家的國債不是不是是這個行政法人自己去舉這個債是來我請教財政部長"},{"start":246.838,"end":257.985,"text":"這些債政府我們自己的債我們自己中央政府發行中央公債的利率是多少目前為止大概是1.1多對嗎那花次長你們的債的公債的利率會是多少"},{"start":270.064,"end":270.204,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":300.548,"end":303.301,"text":"還是你今天說要發行所謂的永續發展債券?"},{"start":304.997,"end":311.079,"text":"今天主題是我們怎麼樣讓金融機構能參與社會住宅的開發對吧所以怎麼樣讓這些機構有機會參與社會住宅的興建來金管會黃主委"},{"start":335.066,"end":354.538,"text":"我們現在我看到你的報告裡面有非常多開放了銀行開放了保險我想問一下我們這個規範是說保險業可以專案運用然後也鼓勵他我想請問一下現在保險業投入社會住宅的新建投資有多少沒有特別明確大概如果是公共建設有沒有目前時間暫停來保險局市部長"},{"start":361.099,"end":381.195,"text":"目前沒有報告目前沒有對好那另外就是不動產裡面有關地上權的投資興建你這邊講2700億有沒有社會住宅也沒有這邊應該也沒有包括社會住宅好包括銀行當然有連帶所以保險業的部分雖然我們的法規已經放寬了但是沒有保險業投入的原因是什麼"},{"start":381.949,"end":405.456,"text":"是,因為他放寬的範圍不是只有現有社會住宅．是,但是他沒有投入社會住宅是事實也就是說剛剛講的假如我們國家的政策是朝向社會住宅假如我們的法律限制也把社會住宅排除在保險業投資不動產之外我們希望有另外一個叫做誘因讓他能夠投入這個市場主委同意嗎?"},{"start":406.465,"end":433.906,"text":"我同意但是前提必須要符合保險資金運用的性質當然當然而且所以已經相關保險法已經修正啦已經修正不受到相關的限制啦當然是符合規定的才所以現在的問題是政府有一套很完整的計畫在蓋新建社會住宅保險業也放寬了但是沒有半個人投入進去我們今天的問題就是希望怎麼樣讓這些資金有條件的能夠投入社會住宅的新建這也是將來"},{"start":441.873,"end":447.879,"text":"協助一下讓我們的相關的資金你這一兆的資金有很多人可以投資的"},{"start":448.831,"end":450.452,"text":"今天我們要問的問題就是接下來這一兆你要發債"},{"start":465.217,"end":489.074,"text":"行政法人發債的利率我建議不要比公共債務高我們一般中央政府的公債高否則你用政府借錢還比較划算第二個部分就是有這麼多的閒置資金或者是可投資的對象去怎麼樣讓他誘因所以我想現在我們鼓勵社會住宅住宅法已經修訂了我們也鼓勵民間自己興建對吧"},{"start":490.575,"end":504.143,"text":"主宅法裏面其實有獎勵民間興辦社會住宅有沒有人來興辦現在其實我們大概只有旅館轉社宅那個部分有還是沒有如果用住宅法的部分還沒有我們正在檢討那個法案的內容對原因是什麼"},{"start":506.084,"end":506.424,"text":"最後一分鐘我想請一下財政部"},{"start":524.758,"end":544.003,"text":"我們有很多公有土地。剛剛市長已經說了,土地都在。要鼓勵民間,我們的民間知不知道你有多少土地要釋出來做縮設宅?你有任何平台讓民間來做調查,或者是來申請查詢,或者是來申辦所謂的民間的社會住宅嗎?"},{"start":544.663,"end":556.869,"text":"跟委員報告,我們財政部這邊有國有財產署,國有財產署對國有非公用土地提供新建設宅是一直是都非常的積極,總共有82.8億。所以好啦,我只是說我們有一個平台讓他查到剛剛花次長說的我們的地不是問題,我們也鼓勵民間興建,也讓保險業來投資,但是沒有一個平台讓他找到說他可以找到地。第二個,沒有誘因讓他進來。"},{"start":568.055,"end":587.305,"text":"國有土地在興建社宅的部分有一個非常的我們跟內政部之間有一個非常好通的一個平台是有的我們希望你訂出一個相關公告的情策定期來公開然後讓這些狀況能夠讓想要申辦所謂民間新辦社會住宅的人能夠來找得到"},{"start":589.506,"end":608.864,"text":"政府所提供的土地來民間興建是謝謝委員的指教我想內政部這邊他有一個補充報告委員蔣立民間興建社會住宅並沒有說要由國家來提供公共土地但是如果沒有政府的土地請問哪一個人會去買地來蓋社會住宅其實這是可以規劃設計的我們正在規劃工地"},{"start":611.306,"end":630.983,"text":"民建、民營可能是一個方向也是你的多元設宅的方向不要把它這個限制因為土地才是政府蓋設宅最缺乏的資源最後我再用一個簡單的時間我們出山把秀過以後政府有常取得公共服務機制的PPP制度我想請問"},{"start":632.384,"end":643.4,"text":"次長跟財政部長以及金融會主委我們針對社會住宅接下來還有長照如果納入所謂有償的PPP各位可以朝這個方向去規劃嗎?"},{"start":646.408,"end":670.601,"text":"這個部分有關有償PPP這個部分我們要不要納入社會住宅其實我們有一個政策評估這個部分是財政部正在進行當中社會住宅、長照都會是將來政府要做但是又可以節省自我成本的一個方法好不好請三位就這個規劃的方向也給北席一個你們目前在規劃的內容好的謝謝好謝謝黃珊珊委員諮詢緊接著我們請陳玉君委員諮詢"},{"start":680.769,"end":681.093,"text":"主席我們請這個"}]}},{"id":"150785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c052824f1ed51b38080ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6504e1f211f94f9a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"12:12:11 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12:18:53","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":402,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:18:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:12:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["李委員昆澤：還有請交通部胡湘麟次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：李委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：國會議員對於地方重大的交通建設之爭取是天經地義的事情，我們對於各地交通能夠順暢地發展也是樂見其成。當然在爭取相關的交通建設或推動相關的法令，對於權力分立的憲政的基本原則，我想每個委員應該都清楚。第二，對於相關爭取的程序，不但要有嚴謹的可行性評估，還要經過環境影響評估、環差的評估，更重要還要財務相關的評估，那在爭取相關的建設，我對於這次環島高鐵的條例，對於國發會的角色大挪移，我實在嚇了一跳，過去在爭取相關的建設要經過可行性評估，通過之後送到交通部去做審議，交通部審議通過再送到國發會，它是一個審議的機關，不是嗎？龔主委說明一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["李委員昆澤：那你們現在變成主管機關啦？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們還是認為說循……"],["李委員昆澤：天公生跑去迎媽祖，你們角色變化實在很快。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們還是覺得，因為我們的專長在過去的經驗上，重大建設都是一個審議跟協調的過程。"],["李委員昆澤：你們變成交通建設的主管機關，這個在相關的政治制度方面真的讓我們衝擊非常地大。另外在第五條說在十年內從計畫到施工要完成，是不是說明一下？相關的草案。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，目前的草案是這樣子。"],["李委員昆澤：好，胡湘麟次長，我們兩個都在交通很久了，臺鐵的臺北鐵路地下化，1983年施工到2011年才初步完工。從臺北車站專案、松山專案，然後萬板專案，萬華到板橋，最後是南港專案，也經歷了將近30年才完成。高雄的鐵路地下化才15公里，臺北的鐵路地下化23公里左右。高雄的鐵路地下化，也是從高雄計畫、左營計畫還有鳳山計畫，也是從2000年開始動工，到2018年才第一階段完成，整個鐵路地下化完成、新的火車站完成，也要到2025年，將近25年。現在政府真的是要變得非常厲害，先不管憲政原則，現在評估的程序整個都不用了嗎？都不用嚴謹地去針對當地的生態、當地的發展，有造成什麼衝擊去評估，要怎麼去規劃財務，都不用了嗎？臺北鐵路地下化做了將近30年、高雄的鐵路地下化也要做到25年，環島高鐵你10年內要完成？這個違反我的常識。另外，國道七號就好了，國道七號的環境影響評估做了十幾年，各位，我們都要很嚴謹來面對這些相關的議題，請胡次長說明一下。"],["胡次長湘麟：是，在過去所有的交通建設，不論鐵路公路大概都會經過可行性研究。"],["李委員昆澤：對，先不管憲政的權力分立原則，也不去考慮相關的主管機關應該是誰，也不去管相關的可行性評估、環境影響評估、環差評估還有財務評估，先都不要去討論，10年內環島高鐵可以完成到花東嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：我認為10年之內這個估算是比較樂觀，而且可能跟我們實際上作業是會有差距。"],["李委員昆澤：我們都希望環島高鐵能夠順利地完成，當然對於鐵路的規劃，在過去的觀念長途就是高鐵，中途、中長程就是臺鐵，那短程都會區就是捷運跟輕軌相關的軌道系統來完成建立。那現在我們面臨一個問題，就是應該如何讓社會大眾清楚應該有的程序是怎樣，還有會經歷的困難是什麼、施工的過程是什麼。我們一起來向社會展現我們支持花東，也支持相關的交通建設，但是我們會面臨的問題是什麼、經歷的過程是什麼。龔主委現在是國發會主委又要兼任交通部長，真的是恭喜你啊，很不簡單喔。你又可以審議又可以變成主管機關。國發會對於過去建立的相關審議過程，是要可行性評估，然後交通部審議過再送國發會，現在都不用交通部了，直接跳過去你們自己審議就好了，這樣符合行政程序嗎？符合嚴謹的評估程序嗎？最後時間，來簡單說明一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，因為部會的分工本來就有一個原則，主管機關當然是希望把這個完成。因為它是主管機關嘛，所以規劃等等要經過第二個單位來做審議，用外部來檢視。檢視我們會提供意見來協處，希望這個案子可以順利地往前走，所以各有分工。"],["李委員昆澤：好，請大家都要嚴肅地思考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來請游顥委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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高雄的鐵路地下化,"},{"start":162.475,"end":185.592,"text":"才15公里,臺北的鐵路地下化23公里左右,高雄的鐵路地下化也是從高雄計畫、左營計畫、還有鳳山計畫,它也是從2000年開始動工,到2018年才第一階段完成,整個鐵路地下化完成,新的火車站完成,也要到2025年,也要將近25年,我們現在政府真的是要變得非常厲害,"},{"start":193.439,"end":193.459,"text":"委員長"},{"start":216.052,"end":238.058,"text":"台鐵、台北鐵路地下化做了將近30年高雄的鐵路地下化也要做到25年環島高鐵你10年內要完成這個都違反我的常識另外國道7號就好了國道7號的環境影響評估做了10幾年"},{"start":241.087,"end":243.91,"text":"各位 我們都很嚴謹來面對相關的這些議題來請胡次長說明一下"},{"start":249.833,"end":272.854,"text":"是,在我們所有過去的交通建設,不論鐵路、公路,大概都會經過可行性研究。對,我們先不管憲政的權力分立為原則,我們也不去考慮相關的這些主管機關應該是誰,我們也不要去管相關的這些可行性評估、環境影響評估、環差評估還有財務評估,先都不要去討論10年內可以完成環島高鐵到花東嗎?"},{"start":274.909,"end":278.55,"text":"我們都希望環島的高鐵能夠順利的完成當然我們對於鐵路的規劃在過去的觀念就是長途就是高鐵中長程就是台鐵"},{"start":298.835,"end":323.607,"text":"那短程都會區就是捷運還有輕軌相關的這些軌道系統能夠來完成的這樣的一個建立那現在我們面臨的這樣的一個問題就是說我們如何讓社會大眾清楚說這個應該有的程序是要怎樣還有我們會經歷的這樣的一個困難是什麼施工的過程是什麼"},{"start":324.807,"end":349.174,"text":"我們一起來向社會展現說我們支持花東我們也支持相關的交通建設但是我們會面臨的問題是什麼?我們經歷的過程是什麼?廣州委員現在國安會主委又要兼任交通部長真的是恭喜你啊很不簡單喔你又可以審議又可以變成主管機關"},{"start":352.337,"end":369.102,"text":"國安委對於相關的審議過程,那過去我們建立的你要可行性評估,然後交通部審議過再送國安委現在都不用交通部啦,就直接跳過去了,你們就自己審議就好啦這樣符合行政程序嗎?符合嚴謹的評估程序嗎?來簡單說明一下,最後時間"},{"start":370.922,"end":398.761,"text":"是 所以我們還說因為部會的分工本來他就有一個原則主管機關他是當然他是希望把這個完成但是他在因為他是主管機關嘛所以他他的規劃或等等要經過第2個單位來做審議用外部來檢視他那這個檢視我們會提供意見來協處那希望這個案子可以順利的往前走所以各有分工請大家都要嚴肅的思考 謝謝"},{"start":400.353,"end":400.374,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c06263b4efdcfc9a90ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6f02b5e2f8307a2845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:40:40 - 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放寬還有這個風險係數的調降等等那您看還有什麼困難"},{"start":513.659,"end":537.571,"text":"跟委員報告保險業資金投資到公共建設這個部分我們不管是我們的促參的部分的相關的法規還有我們金管會這邊相關的法規其實都一直在完備及友善但如果提到我們的公股行庫裡面的所謂的人壽部門的話目前並沒有在投資這個國內公共建設主要原因是他們的"},{"start":538.391,"end":539.532,"text":"您剛才也幫他們說那我就是想要請教一下因為您一開始您的業務報告"},{"start":566.755,"end":573.92,"text":"因為應該是很重要你才會重複兩次你說會持續督導那我是想知道說有沒有去具體規劃一些投資標的"},{"start":577.058,"end":599.97,"text":"具體規劃投資標的我想這個部分涉及到我們相關的金融事業裡面他們的一個公司治理去選擇那財政部基於股權管理的話不會去指導他們去做哪一些項目那當然比如說像社會住宅這一次那個連帶案裡面那因為住都中心他是我們國家在推動社會住宅的一個相當重要的一個行政法人"},{"start":603.273,"end":617.647,"text":"請教部長除了社會住宅其實現在高齡化安養機構的需求量也很大那也許他們也會很想要投入長照那法規上面有沒有障礙目前來說我們的法規沒有限制"},{"start":618.628,"end":634.06,"text":"他們願不願意投入你們要怎麼督導怎麼引導部長因為時間到我是這樣子想我是希望說我們其實有時候我們在教育界就考試引導教學了所以評鑑其實是很重要"},{"start":635.18,"end":657.91,"text":"我們來看一下我們的這些董總的績效評鑑其實像出席董事會會議對事業機構的經營成果配合政府政策達成目標那像這個部分配分18分可是就沒有去獨立計分針對這些投入公共建設的部分那我想這些其實都很重要甚至是我之前"},{"start":658.57,"end":681.154,"text":"第一次我有跟特別質詢就是提到您我那時候也要求說兩個月給回覆像一些包括我們的公共銀行能不能帶頭乘坐這些原住民保留地等等怎麼樣去做誘因做加分那部長我是希望說這些部分希望我們的財政部都能夠來研議看看好不好好的謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝吳立海委員的質詢請接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08bd706e6aade18bcee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6cab6589a64c104af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:27:26 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主委好主委 我們保險業的資金32兆有69.6%到去年9月底有69.6%投資國外其中61.9%投資有價證券那受選實際投資國內的公共建設大概是佔新台幣1300億"},{"start":481.562,"end":508.749,"text":"可用：占可用資金的0.38%這個比例這麼懸殊那投資國外公共建設約7500億占了2.2%在金管會條件係數鼓勵投資公建型私募股權基金投資5加2產業的部分的狀況之下那今年可不可以請主委告訴我們今年預計保險資金投入國內公共建設的資金會達到多少"},{"start":510.28,"end":525.781,"text":"這個不太容易這個時候去預算但是我們基本上尤其在去年年底已經把一些重要的風險係數都降低了希望能夠去年多少去年是5000多億嗎5000多億5900多億對對對那今年會不會再增加往上走"},{"start":525.981,"end":526.762,"text":"主席優生再接著請內政部花次長"},{"start":548.167,"end":559.958,"text":"市長112年12月14日在行政院報告推動社宅注宅成果與提升社宅用地供給經濟措施當中預計在今年113年可達到20萬戶社會注宅的目標"},{"start":565.163,"end":580.432,"text":"下階段社宅2032年會達到一百萬戶的目標請注意喔這一百萬是包括了25萬直接興建25萬包租貸款還有50萬戶的租金補貼加起來總共一百萬"},{"start":581.823,"end":592.214,"text":"那這8年齁未來8年要完成那當然也要求各縣市在進行這個開發徵收還有市地存貨的時候保留3到5%直轄市5%非直轄市3%專案讓售給中央來興辦社宅"},{"start":597.62,"end":618.215,"text":"那針對2035年要完成新建百萬的這樣子的比例等於是全國租屋家戶總數量那未來目標只要是有在外面租屋需求的這些家戶政府都會直接協助並且提出配套措施那請問內政部年底預計完成的20萬戶會不會如期達標"},{"start":620.616,"end":643.517,"text":"8月20萬戶這20萬戶今年年底會達標那50萬戶的租金補貼應該就在今年的年中就會達標了所以說其實今年應該就可以做到就是這百萬戶裡面的70萬會在今年其實就做得到那剩下的部分其實現在直接興建每年可以增加2萬戶包租貸款大概可以增加"},{"start":644.077,"end":644.298,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":657.881,"end":663.364,"text":"到目前2月統計臺中市中央加地方預計興建10,6406戶臺中市府佔了10225中央負責佔了6181市府的達成率72%中央只有65%"},{"start":676.17,"end":687.435,"text":"以本席的選區烏日一個榮泉安居是國家住宅及都市更新中心在烏日區的首座設宅目標工程費10億4月2日要舉辦開工典禮這部分"},{"start":691.937,"end":692.558,"text":"主要就是說﹖"},{"start":715.563,"end":726.511,"text":"中央擴大租金補貼專案計畫是從111年到114年就等於是說這個計畫到2025年那總補貼的規模達到300億如果要達到租宅百萬戶的目標是不是租屋補貼除了繼續實施還要放大這個規模 對不對"},{"start":734.036,"end":754.481,"text":"租用補貼會實施因為賴總統的政見裡面就提到會繼續實施到至少未來的8年都沒有問題那包租貸款跟直接信件都要做所以說這個資源當然會需求會擴大我先請教部長 房租一定漲 現在萬物期漲 電價漲什麼都漲那房租一定跟著漲 那租屋補貼會不會漲 補貼的金額會不會升高"},{"start":757.142,"end":757.262,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"150782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07e3f92bbf8f760d782ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a64c71a6ad5e9dab055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:04:45 - 12:13:30","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":525,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:13:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:04:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":842,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請王國材部長。"],["主席：有請王部長。"],["王部長國材：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長我想先確認一下，本席這邊有聽到現在無人機的採購好像是大家動輒得咎，就是逢中必反到一個無限上綱，所以只要有Made in China的都不行，甚至是很多部會可能要採購無人機的時候會面臨無廠商投標，或者是可能廠商用一樣的型號但是可能掛其他國家，反而價格翻兩、三倍，有沒有這樣的情況？"],["王部長國材：的確我們現在的採購是禁止採購有大陸製的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是大陸品牌就不行，還是裡面零件有大陸的就不行？"],["王部長國材：現在包括關鍵零組件也不行。"],["洪委員孟楷：關鍵零組件也不行？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：最近這樣子一整年下來有沒有……因為不管是交通部邊坡巡視、橋梁巡視，其實很多地方都需要無人機，甚至氣象局觀測這些相關的也都需要無人機啊。"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，有關無人機採購部分在政府採購規範的範本裡面是有訂定有關政府採購部分有大陸製的不行。"],["洪委員孟楷：大陸製不行嘛，那零件咧？"],["何局長淑萍：零件部分其實有設定機關可以擇定，就是可以定或不定，依據它採購的性質。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們身為中央主管機關，因為無人機照理講還是交通部民航局這邊來做管理吧？"],["何局長淑萍：是，我們有無人機管理系統。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為本席聽到、接獲很多，甚至有部會在講，因為這樣子逢中必反，很多其實是同一個型號，它可能變成到第三國去做一個過水，一樣型號反而要賣貴兩三、倍啊！變成廠商就用比較貴的價格來賣我們，全世界的市場只有我們臺灣要買，因為我們臺灣是不能用Made in China的，但其實是一樣的型號，有沒有發生這樣的情況？有沒有去了解？"],["何局長淑萍：這個部分我們可能要再了解，主要因為是認大陸廠牌，那是政府採購，如果是民間企業要用的部分是沒有在……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在不是講民間企業，我們現在講的是公部門的採購。"],["何局長淑萍：是，公部門。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是不是有很多公部門要採購無人機都沒有辦法，無機可採、沒有廠商投標？"],["何局長淑萍：其實事實上交通部也有採購無人機，不過它就不是大陸製的，有一部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有採購比較貴？"],["王部長國材：現在包括採購還有展演我們都要求很嚴格，就是不能有大陸製，事實上剛才那個關鍵零組件也不行，我想這部分等於是國家的一個政策，我們就以這樣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，陳建仁院長也講啊，有看到陳建仁院長去視察時，看到無人機上面有Made in China，院長不是也講不用太吹毛求疵，院長講的話好像跟部長講的話不一樣。部長，本席這邊在要求民航局給本席一個相關資料，好不好？到底你們現在的規範、還有採購無人機部分，你剛有講到有採購無人機，你的採購價格部分也請給本席一個資料，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，再來跟你請教，今天上午你也有講到1,200萬的觀光人次往下修了，變成1,000萬，你坦言是陸客團客不來，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：1,200萬下修成1,000萬是什麼概念？兩成哪、兩成！本來一年365天有365天可以做生意，現在可能只剩300天了，因為有60天沒有辦法做生意，就沒生意啊，那我們的飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲、運輸業者就叫苦連天了！請教部長，自由行跟團客對我們國內市場來講最大的差異跟最大關鍵性在哪裡？"],["王部長國材：團客部分一般會跟旅宿、遊覽車等等，所以我覺得影響的層面比較大；自由行他就自己訂，所以對旅行社而言，團客的影響比較大。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，移動的範圍嘛！"],["王部長國材：移動範圍，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實部長講到重點，團客跟自由行影響最廣就是中南部的旅遊市場啦，講白一點，自由行相對來講他是在雙北地區或是大都會地區，大眾運輸工具比較方便的地方自由行的旅客會比較多，但是團客因為他可能有住宿、有運輸、有遊覽車業者，他可以規劃全臺的旅行，所以對整個中南部市場而言，團客沒來影響是比較廣的，是吧？"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，這就是我們希望從遊客的部分，希望他能夠往中南部走，所以我們有些策略，譬如包括高鐵買一送一這種策略都是。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，現在重點是源頭沒來，你再怎麼樣策略、怎麼變都沒有辦法。"],["周署長永暉：是，我們去年……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這次部長就已經講了，1,200萬要下修為1,000萬，我們要講的是這1,000萬能不能達到，連業者、觀光業者也都覺得非常辛苦，我們有沒有更積極的措施？部長，上禮拜本席在這邊也跟您請教過，你也講2023年來臺第一名的國外旅客是港澳地區，本席也講了，你也不要說這個好像讓大家覺得香港地區的朋友你不歡迎他，但除此之外到底我們還有沒有什麼方式可以幫助觀光業者？還是我們就雙手一攤？"],["王部長國材：事實上應該不會，我們第一季大概200萬，現在數量一直在增加，這個意思是如果用200萬來講就是800萬，然後開始增加，我想這個部分我們還是有信心，現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有什麼信心？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在自己都講第一季只有200萬，這樣子四季也只有800萬，連1,000萬都達不到！"],["王部長國材：可是我們一直在增加……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今年1月1日時信誓旦旦講1,200萬，1,200萬數字是誰喊的？也是你觀光署、也是你交通部，不是嗎？"],["王部長國材：但是的確今年年初發生太多狀況，讓我們對於中國大陸本來的預期發生改變。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是不是政治意識形態還是會影響到國內的旅遊市場？"],["王部長國材：給委員說明一下，現在等於他們200萬沒過來，那我們現在團客也不讓他們去……"],["洪委員孟楷：你原本預期陸客來臺有多少人？"],["王部長國材：就是200萬到250萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：疫情期間陸客來臺多少人？"],["王部長國材：大概270萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：陸客在疫情期間、疫情之前。"],["王部長國材：之前270萬。"],["周署長永暉：271萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：最高有到多少人？"],["王部長國材：400萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["王部長國材：很久，400萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是很久啊，也就這幾年的事情。"],["周署長永暉：沒有，是很久，大概8年前。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是就在民進黨政府上任之後逐步下降，所以部長……"],["王部長國材：可是我們釋出很多善意……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、署長，本席在這邊要的是幫我們的觀光業者發聲，如果你自己也改口了，也不過才幾個月時間、3個月不到，我剛剛還去翻，你在1月1號媒體採訪的時候說1,200萬、我們要捍衛有尊嚴的市場；不到3個月改口變成1,000萬，這些業者要怎麼準備？我都不想講所有業者叫苦連天，他們自己在想都覺得將帥無能、累死三軍，很多觀光業者甚至也覺得可能不是交通部、可能不是觀光署的問題，但重點是你如果是政治意識形態綁住的話，大家就永遠都沒有活路。你身為主管機關，能不能真真正正的想出一些辦法以及用專業來講話，不要每一次都是政治意識形態綁架，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們現在釋出善意了，現在球在對方，只要對方有善意，整個就會全部解決。"],["主席：這個部長會後再跟委員這邊做個答復好不好？時間到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：加油啦，真的，本席還是希望，520即將到來，大家沸沸揚揚講你是待觀察名單，當然我一直說如果可以用專業來講話的話，至少我們溝通起來會比較順暢。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員的發言。","下一位請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.54971875,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.72659375,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.40096875,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.129718750000002,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.21471875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.47971875,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.80846875,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.28034375,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.157843750000005,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.60471875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.16409375,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.53909375,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.65659375,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":84.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.19909375,"end":94.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.53096875,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.02034375000001,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.39909375,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.09096875,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.63909375,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.25971875000002,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.71096875,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.04409375,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.95409375,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.38409375,"end":144.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.09284375000001,"end":145.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.93659375000001,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.40909375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.81409375,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.75409375,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.69784375,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.13659375,"end":162.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.53721875000002,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.02659375000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEA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in China這個都不行那甚至講是說很多部會他可能要採購無人機的時候會面臨說無廠商投標或者是說可能廠商用別一樣的型號但是他可能掛其他的國家反而"},{"start":36.52,"end":38.422,"text":"大陸品牌就不行還是裡面有零件有大陸就不行"},{"start":52.379,"end":68.235,"text":"現在包括關鍵零組件也不行關鍵零組件也不行那有沒有最近這樣子一整年下來因為不管是交通部我們邊坡巡視橋樑的巡視其實很多地方都需要無人機甚至氣象局觀測這些相關也都需要無人機啊"},{"start":69.333,"end":84.782,"text":"報告委員有關那個無人機的政府採購的部分在那個政府採購規範的一個那個範本裡面他是有去訂定說有關政府採購的部分大陸製的是不行大陸製不行嗎那零件勒"},{"start":85.262,"end":100.991,"text":"那零件的部分其實他是有設定說那個機關可以責定就是說可以定或不定依據他採購的性質那我們身為中央主管機關因為無人機照理講還是我們交通部這民航局這邊來做一個管理吧"},{"start":101.631,"end":128.306,"text":"是就是我們無人機有管理系統因為本席聽到接獲到很多甚至有部會都在講是說因為這樣子逢中必反很多其同一個型號他可能變成是到第三國去做一個過水反而一樣的型號賣貴兩三倍就變成是廠商就用比較貴的一個價格來賣我們那全世界的市場只有我們台灣要買因為我們台灣是不能Made in China但一樣的型號"},{"start":129.306,"end":144.075,"text":"有沒有發生這樣的情況有沒有去了解這個部分我們可能要再了解那主要因為是任大陸廠牌那是政府採購那如果是民間企業他要用的部分這個部分是沒有在我們現在不是講民間企業我們現在講的是公部門公部門的採購"},{"start":145.916,"end":159.344,"text":"所以說現在是不是有很多公部門要採購無人機都沒有無機可採沒有廠商投標其實事實上在交通部的部分也有採購也有採購無人機那不過他就不是大陸製的有一部分"},{"start":162.249,"end":188.027,"text":"現在包括採購還有展演我們現在都要求很嚴格那這個就是不能有大陸事實上剛才那個關鍵零組件也不行所以我想說這部分是等於國家的一個政策我們就以這樣陳建仁院長也講說有看到陳建仁院長不是去視察所以有看到那個無人機上面有Made in China院長不也講是說不用太吹毛求疵"},{"start":189.397,"end":213.499,"text":"那院長講的話好像就跟我們部長講的話不一樣部長本席這邊在要求我們民航局給本席一個相關資料好不好到底你們現在的一個規範那還有有沒有你們採購無人機你剛剛有講到是說我們這邊有採購無人機嘛你的這個採購價格的部分也請給本席一個資料可以嗎可以部長再來跟你請教今天上午你也有講到"},{"start":214.46,"end":226.236,"text":"一千兩百萬的觀光人次往下修了變成一千萬你坦言是入客團客不來對不對一千兩百萬下修成一千萬是什麼概念兩成啊"},{"start":228.126,"end":250.081,"text":"本來一年365天有365天可以做生意現在可能只剩300天了因為有60天沒有辦法做生意啊都沒生意啊那對於我們飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲運輸業者就叫苦連天了而且部長請教您自由行跟團客最大的差別對我們國內市場來講最大的差異跟最大關鍵性在哪裡"},{"start":252.094,"end":255.856,"text":"部長移動的範圍嗎?其實部長講到重點團客跟自由行影響最廣就是中南部的旅遊市場啦講白一點"},{"start":277.905,"end":297.852,"text":"自由行來做相對來講他在雙北地區或是大都會地區大眾運輸工具比較方便的地方自由行的旅客會比較多但是團客因為他可以有住宿有運輸有遊覽車業者所以他可以規劃全台的一個旅行所以對整個中南部市場團客沒來影響是比較廣的"},{"start":299.587,"end":317.437,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下這就是我們希望能夠從遊客的部分能夠往中南部走所以我們有些策略譬如說包括買高鐵買一送一這種策略都是組長現在重點是源頭沒來你再怎麼樣策略怎麼變都沒有辦法"},{"start":318.277,"end":338.406,"text":"所以說這是部長就已經講了他一千兩百萬要銷售一千萬那我們講是說連這一千萬能不能達到業者觀光業者也都覺得說非常辛苦我們有沒有更積極的措施部長上禮拜本席在這邊也跟您請教過您也講是說我們第一名的2023年第一名的國外旅客來的是港澳地區"},{"start":340.002,"end":351.953,"text":"本席也講了你也不要講是說這個好像讓大家覺得是說香港地區的朋友你不歡迎他但除此之外到底我們還有沒有什麼方式可以幫助觀光業者還是我們就雙手一攤"},{"start":354.699,"end":376.897,"text":"我們第一季大概200萬嘛那現在數量一直在增加這意思說這個如果用200萬來講就是800然後開始增加我想說這個部分我們是還是有信心現在有什麼信心我跟委員報告你現在你自己都講就是說第一季只有200萬到四季這樣子也只有800萬連1000萬都達不到你今年1月1號都信誓旦旦講說1200萬1200萬數字誰喊的"},{"start":379.599,"end":380.8,"text":"所以我們現在是不是政治意識形態還是影響到國內的旅遊市場"},{"start":397.989,"end":421.969,"text":"你原本預期入客來台有多少人?就是200到250萬疫情期間入客來台多少人?大概270萬入客 疫情期間 疫情之前之前270萬最高有到多少人?400萬"},{"start":423.37,"end":425.172,"text":"但是就在於民進黨政府上任之後逐步下降"},{"start":435.02,"end":459.395,"text":"所以部長 署長本席還是在這邊我們要的是幫我們的觀光業者來發聲如果說你自己也改口了也不過才幾個月時間欸三個月不到啊1月1號的時候我剛剛還去翻你1月1號的時候媒體受訪的時候1200萬我們要捍衛有尊嚴的市場不到三個月改口變成1000萬"},{"start":460.967,"end":480.158,"text":"那這些業者他準備怎麼準備我都不想講說所有業者叫苦連天他們自己在想是說他們都覺得說降帥無能累死三軍啊很多觀光業者甚至也覺得說可能不是我們交通部可能不是觀光署的問題那但是重點是你如果說你甚至意識形態綁住的話你永遠大家都沒有活路"},{"start":481.508,"end":506.655,"text":"你身為主管機關能不能真真正正的想出一些辦法以及用專業來講話不要每一次都是政治意識形態綁架可以嗎我跟委員報告我們現在釋出善意啊現在求在對方真的求在對方只要對方有善意我們就會整個就會全部解決這個部長再跟委員這邊做個答覆好不好加油啦真的本期還是希望喔"},{"start":507.575,"end":507.835,"text":"陳俊宇委員"}]}},{"id":"150781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0cfcf73853d68980d9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6943bbea980e3f7285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:05:11 - 12:12:23","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":432,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:12:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T12:05:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":691,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時5分）主席、各位委員。有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。我接續剛才林思銘委員的質詢，誠如剛才林委員所講的，現在我們的憲法不是雙首長制，也不知道是什麼制啦，在這樣的情形之下，立法院更要就我們所應有的權限好好的來修法。因為行政院院長真的是隨時可以換，總統想要換就換，已經是到這種地步，很多的施政方針、施政的各個部會，甚至各個部會的首長也都是總統在決定，對不對？最近媒體不是在報導誰是部長、誰是主委，有沒有？從這裡就可以知道決定權不是行政院院長，各部會首長的決定權不在行政院院長，而是在總統。所以到底要怎麼樣就現有憲法的增修條文第四條，對於所謂的國情報告要怎麼去落實，然後在不違憲的情況之下，還沒有修憲的情況之下，怎麼樣讓代表人民的立法委員能夠好好的詢問，我們不要說質詢啦，最起碼是詢問總統。所以本席也有提出立法院職權行使法部分條文修正，像現行的條文還特別提到要就國家安全大政方針，我認為這就太限縮了，立法院太限縮自己的職權，為什麼？憲法增修條文沒有這樣規定嘛！是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：鄭委員已經提過，像原民政策，鄭委員上次也提過了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對、對，秘書長的記憶力很好，這個我來講述一下，對我上次沒有講的部分做個補充。過去陳水扁總統時代，各政黨的立法委員還有機會在他到地方的時候可以見到，見到時還可以反映意見；馬英九執政的時候，馬總統只要出去，他到地方的時候，當地的立委不分藍綠都會通知，陳水扁總統也是這樣，因為我以前是公務人員，常常有時候要去，那時候是藍綠立委都有。但是蔡總統8年執政，我們沒有機會碰到總統，反而一些民眾成立了所謂原住民族轉型正義委員會，總統親自主持，他們還可以發言，而我們連機會都沒有。所以如果又限縮在國家安全大政方針，總統可以說這個不是國家安全大政方針就不予回應，會有這樣的情形，何況這個也不是在憲法增修條文裡面所明定的，所以一定要把「國家安全大政方針」這幾個字刪除。","再者，就現行的條文，立法委員於總統國情報告完畢後，得就報告不明瞭處，提出問題，然後還有政黨比例、人數等等，那變成還要抽籤，依政黨比例就要抽籤，所以這個部分也不符合實際的需求。就誠如剛才前面的論述，包括前面林思銘委員的論述，這個部分都要刪掉，每一個委員都要有詢問機會，我們不要說質詢啦，還是維持用詢問，秘書長的看法怎麼樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：我贊成鄭委員所提的意見，因為在修法過程中，我們可以把這個條文做一個修正。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分希望在審查的時候能夠有充分的討論。","最後，原住民立委也很少有機會跟你做這樣的質詢，原住民的立委在臺澎金馬選區，現在都會區有設戶籍的已經百分之四十九點多，所以我們選區這麼大，我接下來談的跟今天的法案無關，要請秘書長會同相關的處，因為很多的設計都是以區域立委來設計，有很多不合理之處，臺澎金馬，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：向鄭委員報告一下，你的法我已經看過了，所以要法制局針對這個做研究，因為我一個同學在民國七十幾年，對於立法委員跟其國會助理，比如在DC或是在加州，我印象中我那同學有寫了一篇文章，好像不一樣啦，因為我在75年有個機會到美國有個專題研究，現在已　經交到法制局針對你所提的在做一些研究。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請秘書長找個時間來跟我們7個原住民立委交換意見，謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：報告出來之前，我會再跟你們請教一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.125968750000002,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.450343750000002,"end":16.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.88846875,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.559093750000002,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":30.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.65471875,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.77659375,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.85659375,"end":38.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.65346875,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.99909375,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.720343750000005,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.63971875,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.48284375,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.96784375,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":55.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.174093750000004,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.455968750000004,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.29534375,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.98284375,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.93159375,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.76659375,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.80846875,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.68596875,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.71096875,"end":79.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.52471875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.84471875,"end":86.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.02159375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.75534375000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.01659375000001,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.73784375000001,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.39159375000001,"end":96.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.64846875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.75346875000001,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.40284375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.36846875,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.67159375000001,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":116.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.25721875,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.21034375,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.23534375000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.90596875000001,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.31034375000002,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.25909375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.81096875,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.68846875,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.78096875,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.73846875,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.36659375000002,"end":148.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.56034375000002,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.80471875,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.09534375,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.00659375,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.81221875,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.74034375000002,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.02721875,"end":159.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.22534375,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.06909375,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.84096875,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.00909375,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.15659375,"end":171.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.85221875000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.44659375,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.10409375,"end":180.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.86346875,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.64346875,"end":188.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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謝主席 邱志偉"},{"start":22.771,"end":41.548,"text":"國安會的角色應該是屬於協調、整合、規劃,不是一個執行,對不對?對,審議,主要是審議機關。對國家重大的經濟或者是交通或者相關的這個重大政策裡面做相關的評估嘛。是。所以你們是一個審查者、把關者的角色嘛。是。"},{"start":43.308,"end":69.824,"text":"國家政府存在的目的是說 要改善解決這個國家的問題另外一個 增加國家的各項硬體的建設 對不對因為國家一定有很多問題嘛 少子化問題有沒有嚴重有沒有嚴重我是不是要針對少子化對策 解決少子化特別條例 那麼還有意義"},{"start":71.727,"end":99.518,"text":"青年低薪是不是一個問題青年低薪啊薪資沒有辦法調漲物價一直調漲那薪資沒有辦法增加那我可不可以針對青年低薪問題解決青年問題特別條例這樣的特別條例才有意義嘛你通過這個特別條例解決國家當權面對的重大問題稍微的問題跟青年低薪的問題那建設不是這樣子"},{"start":101.199,"end":127.897,"text":"這個全國的高鐵的入網但每一個所有國人都會贊成但是你的路徑、你的方法應該循規正矩而不是用特別條例的方式用一個不是用一個協調幕僚的角色的國安會來擔任主政機關如此大的工程國安會現在目前編制多少人"},{"start":129.339,"end":150.914,"text":"我們國土支部現在總共四十幾個人,但是交通…四十幾個人你要去規劃環島高速鐵路國民黨也曾經完全執政過耶有政府會做事,是現在民黨政府有些政府不見得會做事耶2008到2016馬英九當總統的時候國會也是這個全面…這個是多數黨,是全面執政的"},{"start":158.944,"end":187.578,"text":"為什麼當時國民黨在那麼好的機會八年為什麼不提這個法案你去問一下陳創你去問一下毛治國你去問一下張善政你去問一下那個劉兆璇吳東毅江一樺這些行政院長為什麼到時候不提行政院也可以提啊那時候立法院也是國民黨全民執政啊也是國民黨多數為什麼不提"},{"start":189.417,"end":217.734,"text":"提了就有問題嘛破壞這個行政立法這個這個權力分立的一個一個角色也破壞了行政部門在推動這個政策推動各項建設的所有的順序所有的邏輯所有的法律全部都黑翻了如果可以做的話當時為什麼國民黨執政馬英九總統以至於所有的行政院長所有的交通部長為什麼不做"},{"start":219.878,"end":221.519,"text":"高雄捷運光是一個路逐延伸線"},{"start":245.427,"end":257.6,"text":"我都認為是2012年到20一直到這個在馬英九執政的時候這個延伸線完全沒有任何的進展一個陸軸延伸線我努力了10年一個延伸線而已喔"},{"start":265.558,"end":286.092,"text":"好,是不是高中市政府檢驗局要報到交通部,交通部不審核之後還要報國安會,國安會之後還要再相關的補進程序,還有很多環評。一個路逐延伸線,還好2016蔡英文總統當選,才加快進度,現在已經今年年終就要通車到岡山站。"},{"start":289.404,"end":309.24,"text":"在過5年之後就通車到我這個湖內以後再延伸到台南高鐵台南的這個捷運站不只這樣子也有捷運黃線目前歸入捷運紫線短短不到8年時間做多少事情這就是有政府會做事但有些政府是不會做事那現在突然這個條例出來"},{"start":314.571,"end":318.072,"text":"破壞所有法律施政的邏輯跟秩序當然我們希望這個鐵路建設能夠環島這個結論、這個方向是全民的做共識但是如果用這個方法請教主委為什麼國民黨那一種總統當八年這個2008、2016國民黨全面執政國會多數為什麼不敢推"},{"start":346.715,"end":371.231,"text":"請教主委幫委員,所有的重大建設或者是交通事業,它都是循序漸進那高鐵的部分先有西部高鐵以後,然後你再討論到延伸到宜蘭到屏東才有可能再考量到東部高鐵的部分,它是一個階段循序政府有法律,不過人民政府都要依法來施政"},{"start":373.757,"end":394.851,"text":"所以我今天問這個問題是說很多事情你用錯方法反而會製造更多的問題我說的有國安問題的少子化青年低薪的問題我覺得可以用這個特別條例跨部會來做整合來推動來解決這個問題但建設比較循序漸進有它的邏輯"},{"start":399.042,"end":426.296,"text":"就算我諮詢,諮詢到了我就應該要下來因為我要遵守立法委員自願行事法,對不對?諮詢到了我就看到李坤貞在那邊等我就不能繼續講下去,因為我是一個守法的國會議員政府所有的作為都應該要做人民的表率要守法,不能知法犯法"}]}},{"id":"150779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c076ad403173d7074e91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b36af2056dcf8b7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:01:04 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現在目前研發了有11款 增大一體的目前朝上研發了有7款在服役的有幾架 在服役的有4種已經服役了對 都是健身 有幾架了 這個多了 這個有大概有200多架小的中的 那我們不是還要跟外面買3000架不是嗎"},{"start":549.735,"end":557.056,"text":"謝偉"}]}},{"id":"150778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0b746899486037a569e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a655cb995b5bd8e5235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:51:53 - 12:05:05","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:05:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:51:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時52分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：好，秘書長。"],["林委員思銘：我還是要重申，今天國會改革、五法的改革，尤其是國會的聽證調查權，民進黨一直主張這個部分擴權，剛才吳思瑤委員講我們擴權，我想這言重了，這部分大家可以討論，但是絕對沒有所謂立法院擴權的說法，這是不存在的。","好，我們先講立法院院長記名投票這部分，記名投票這部分在學界還存有爭議，但是我想告訴民眾的是，基於民意、責任及陽光政治的理念，立法委員在立法院內的表決應該要公開，要用顯明的方式，所以包含了記名投票、唱名表決、舉手表決等，足以讓民眾得知我們身為國會議員，我們是代表民意來投票，所以正副院長的選舉應該採取記名投票的方式比較妥當，也可以落實資訊公開，讓人民充分了解民意代表的決策。秘書長，你同意嗎？我說的這些，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我先同意這一個，因為地方制度法也有這樣規範，我在報告裡面所寫的是有兩種情況啦！"],["林委員思銘：了解，但是我現在說的是……"],["周秘書長萬來：但你們的提案內容我也看過，尊重你們的決定。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！我們也要陽光投進我們立法院嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：那沒有問題，沒問題。"],["林委員思銘：所以用記名投票的方式，並沒有違反憲法第一百二十九條規定的問題嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有、沒有，兩邊的教授有不同的看法，我個人是比較傾向可以。"],["林委員思銘：是可以嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：但是還是要尊重委員在會議過程當中所做的決定。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，你一直顯得很中立，其實我要告訴你，我們立法委員選任院長，我剛才前面講那麼多，其實也是要告訴社會大眾，選院長這件事情也是立法委員職權、權能的行使，它的性質其實是一種議事行為，這跟人民行使參政權選舉公職人員，性質是截然不同的，所以不能相提並論。因此與憲法第一百二十九條根本沒有連帶關係，所以不一定要採取無記名投票的方式，我這麼說對啦？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟林委員報告，因為林委員也是學法的……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我現在點出實際上……"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當時是大法官，像我們吳老師吳庚他就認為這個是沒有，但是中興大學李惠宗教授他認為是要……"],["林委員思銘：當然啦！每一位教授的看法我們都尊重，但是我現在覺得我們立法委員也要有自己的看法。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，所以我才……"],["林委員思銘：我們的看法認為這個根本沒有違憲的問題，所以這一條應該大家都沒有爭議啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：對，沒有違憲，所以我剛才跟林委員報告說尊重你們的決定。"],["林委員思銘：你的看法也一樣，沒有違憲嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。現在來講國會調查權，我先直接請教秘書長，對於我們立法委員擁有國會調查權，你是持肯定的態度還是否定的態度？"],["周秘書長萬來：立法院調查權本來就是輔助性的權力，這個是……"],["林委員思銘：固有的權力嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對，第585號已經解釋了，我們有立法院調查權。"],["林委員思銘：是，我想第585號解釋也講得很清楚，立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予的立法職權，本其固有的權能就享有一定的調查權嘛！主動獲取行使職權所需的相關資訊，俾能充分思辯，審慎決定，以善盡我們民意代表的職責，也發揮權力分立與制衡的機能。但是該號解釋也強調，立法院行使調查權的方式，並不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權所涉及事項提供參考資料為限，就是我們還可以向它調閱文件的原本，必要時也得經院會決議，要求與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見，並得對違反協助調查義務者處以罰鍰的處分，並於必要的範圍內施以合理的強制手段，使立法院調查權的行使更為完整，並有助立法院職權行使過程中相關資訊的蒐集，所以立法院聽證權有法制化的必要。","秘書長，根據我剛才講的這段陳述，也是釋字第585號解釋的精神和主要意旨，所以你也是贊同國會要有調查權。另外，從這段意旨裡面，也認為我們國會要把藐視國會罪法制化，這個你認同嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我認同，但是原來的調查權裡面，剛才林委員也唸過第585號解釋裡面的內容，所以我們法制局當時在做這個報告的時候，也請了好幾個學者專家來，對於罰鍰這個部分是行政罰還是要由刑罰來處分，每一個學者專家的看法不一，剛才我也這樣做報告。"],["林委員思銘：是啦！學者專家的意見不一，這個我們也都有看過，但是我們來看一下世界各國的立法例，好不好？其實我們看各國的國會調查權可以知道，不論是法國的國會職權行使法、美國的議事規則、德國的聯邦議事規則或者日本的議院證言法，都有國會強制權的附屬武器。原則上，調查實施的時候，受調查者如果沒有正當理由拒絕證言，或者拒絕提供相關資訊文件者，應受有懲處，例如罰金或刑責，有罰金也有刑責，不限於只有罰鍰而已；如作偽證者，亦同。","我國過去在監察院實施調查權的相關規範中，都完全沒有相關的規定，但在釋字第585號解釋中，我剛才講了，它已經肯認、承認應該有這類的刑罰，所以立法院的行使調查權跟監察委員是不同的。立法院如果要行使國會調查權，我們就必須對於這種拒絕證言、虛偽證言，或者虛偽陳述，或者隱匿相關文件、不願意提供文件的，我們必須要去立法，讓這些拒絕提供的、藐視國會的，必須要受到相當的懲處。","世界各國都有相關的立法啦！其實我想講的是，我發覺民進黨一直在抗拒國會五法的立法，抗拒國會的每一位立法委員擁有聽證調查權，以及對於相關官員如果為拒絕陳述，不願意提供資料，我們要課以相關的懲處，不限於只是行政罰鍰而已，甚至刑責也是OK的，這也不違憲啊！所以剛才一直聽到說什麼違憲，秘書長，你認為如果用刑罰有違憲嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個強制手段到底有沒有涉及到刑罰，目前的看法不一，譬如說有委員在……"],["林委員思銘：所以說我們從世界各國的立法例來看，沒有問題啊！沒有違憲的問題啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：我們必須要以第585號解釋作為基礎，再去做這一層……"],["林委員思銘：其實第633號解釋也認為我們行使裁罰，不管是用刑罰或者是用行政罰鍰，只要它的要件及標準有明確，而且讓受規範者得預見其行為的可罰性，且其規定得經司法審查加以確認，這個就符合憲法第二十三條比例原則以及法律明確性原則的要求嘛！相關的解釋也是這樣子的說法，所以沒有違憲的問題吧？秘書長，因為你剛才答得還是很曖昧，到底有沒有違憲？如果用刑罰來處罰，你認為有違憲嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：違憲不是我能夠做解釋，大法官才能做司法院的解釋。"],["林委員思銘：不是，今天你站在這裡，我是想說你個人也是一個專家嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我本身是說，必須在符合第585號解釋的情況下做處理。各位委員如果在立法過程當中，認為是要用刑罰，那我們也尊重，以幕僚的立場，我們不予表示。"],["林委員思銘：尊重，但是有沒有違憲你不方便回答，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我不予表示。"],["林委員思銘：好，我剛才已經論述非常多了，其實也沒有違憲的問題。","最後一個問題，我還是要再次跟您請教，總統的國情報告這部分，我聽到很多民進黨委員說我們現在是總統制，參照美國，美國的總統只要來做國情咨文之後，他可以不接受詢問，然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告，接受我們委員的即問即答，一直說這是違憲啊！秘書長，你認為呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我上一次報告已經講得很清楚，我們立法院有決定權。"],["林委員思銘：剛剛講得很清楚，他們還是一直講說這樣違憲，那我要請問你……"],["周秘書長萬來：因為立法院有決定權。"],["林委員思銘：你覺得我們是什麼制的國家？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，我們現……"],["林委員思銘：我們現在是什麼制的國家？我們是雙首長制還是總統制？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們也不是雙首長制啦！因為在修憲以後，類似，也不完全相同，所以制度的設計上，跟別的國家不會一樣，我們不會一樣。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們也不是總統制，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我們不會一樣，所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考各個國家的情況。"],["林委員思銘：所以美國的總統只來做國情報告，然後馬上就拍拍屁股走了，講完他就走了，也不接受質詢，跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：因為現在我們憲法的設計，行政院長不必經過立法院的同意，總統可以隨時任免他，任命他也可以任免他，隨時可以換人，行政院長的副署權也被取消了，所以很顯然的，我們的行政院長已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長，只是總統的幕僚長，總統認為他的意見跟總統不一樣的話，總統隨時可以免除他的職務，馬上可以換人啦！所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責，難道我們代表人民的國會，在他來做國情報告的時候，我們沒有權力對他做詢問嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛才報告過了，立法院有決定權嘛！"],["林委員思銘：對啊！現在相關的法規都很明確了，不管是增修條文，立法院可以邀請他來做國情報告，或依立法院職權行使法，四分之一立法委員的請求可以邀請他來，我想這個都已經有很明確的規範了嘛，所以總統必須來做國情報告。賴清德總統自己也答應了，說他願意來國會，只是他對於我們詢答的方式有意見，我們是認為即問即答才符合現在的國情，總統不能有權無責啦，總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢，而且要採即問即答的方式才有意義啊！秘書長，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是我們院裡面自己可以做決定的地方。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛！OK，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 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六三三號解釋也認為說我們裁罰就是我們行使裁罰不管是用刑法或者是用行政法來只要他的要件及標準有明確而且讓受規範者得益見其行為的可罰性"},{"start":547.279,"end":569.55,"text":"且其規定得經司法審查加以確認,這個就符合我們刑法23條比例原則以及法律的明確性原則的要求。所以相關的解釋也做這樣子的一個說法。所以沒有違憲的問題吧,民主黨,因為你答的還是很曖昧,到底有沒有,如果用刑法來去處罰,你認為有違憲嗎?"},{"start":572.961,"end":575.883,"text":"我本身是說必須在符合585號解釋的情況下做處理啦。"},{"start":589.552,"end":603.282,"text":"各位委員如果在整個立法過程當中,如果認為是要用刑法,那我們也尊重。以不了立場,我們不宜表示。我剛剛已經論述非常多了,其實也沒有違憲的問題啦。因為最後一個問題我還是要再次跟你請教我們總統的這個國情報告這部分。"},{"start":613.669,"end":627.497,"text":"我想我聽到很多民進黨的委員講說我們現在是總統制參照美國美國的總統只要來做國情諮詢做國情諮問之後他可以不接受詢問然後一直強調說總統來做國情報告接受我們委員的疑問疑答一直說違憲"},{"start":637.704,"end":646.486,"text":"你認了嗎?我上一次報告已經講很清楚。我們立法院有決定權。那你覺得說我們是什麼制的國家?我們現在是什麼制的國家?我們是雙首長制還是總統制?我們也不是雙首長制啦。"},{"start":659.309,"end":684.846,"text":"因為這個修憲以後也不像類似也不完全相同所以制度的設計上本身就不會...所以我們跟美國我們也不是總統制嘛我們也不是總統制嘛對不對所以我當天所提的報告也是給各位參考所以美國的這個所謂總統只來做這個國情的一個報告但是不接受就馬上就拍拍屁股就走了講完他就走了也不接受資訊跟我們憲法的設計是不一樣的嘛我當然"},{"start":688.308,"end":688.408,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":706.283,"end":724.459,"text":"他已經不是獨立行使職權的行政首長只是總統的幕僚長總統隨時認為說他的意見跟總統不一樣的話總統可以去馬上把他免除他的一個職務馬上可以換人了所以實際上我們現在的總統是有權無責啊所以難道我們代表人民的國會在他來做國情報告的時候我們沒有權利對他做一個詢問嗎"},{"start":735.925,"end":760.023,"text":"我當然報告過吧,你立法院有決定權嘛。是啊,那現在相關的法規都很明確啦。不管是徵修條文,立法院可以邀請他來做這個國情報告,或是立法院的職權行使法,四分之一的立法委員的請求可以邀請他來。我想這個都已經有很明確的一個相關的規範了嘛。所以總統必須來做國情報告吧。"},{"start":761.121,"end":783.668,"text":"我講賴清的總統他自己也答應了啊說他願意來國會但是只對於說我們尋答的方式他有意見但是我們是認為急問急答才符合我們現在的國情總統不能有權無責總統有必要接受我們立法委員的質詢而且要採急問急答的方式才有意義"},{"start":785.322,"end":789.654,"text":"委員長你同意嗎?這是我們院裡面自己做決定的一個方式。"}]}},{"id":"150777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c06846a380b1bde1c50ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6baa294d2605753f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:57:02 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所以這個部分不是不做而是我們怎麼把它到位然後讓人民有感甚至交通建設說真的"},{"start":220.911,"end":245.123,"text":"那今天如果固定的去做是要呼呼叫捏一直走下去捏不是說做到哪停到哪這樣不是交通建設這樣只是會讓地方看得到吃不到對不對就好像是一個假的東西說有有有我幫你爭取了你看這個計畫這麼大可是你沒有安撫就搬來你用跳的"},{"start":246.741,"end":274.579,"text":"用跳的就可以跳上去嗎?萬一這個基底都沒有做好基礎都沒有打好,會跌下來耶今天花東地區的民眾沒有辦法如果說今天大家所看到的是一個不負責任政府真的啊,大家來畫畫就好了,信不信?我們要做一個負責任的政府"},{"start":275.498,"end":304.691,"text":"所以既然有提到我們從開始嘛任何我們都接受每個地方所提出的公共建設計畫有需要我們就去評估有需要我們就去做我們沒有因為什麼顏色不可能我常在講我們的前瞻說真的國民黨的縣市首長可能拿的都還比民進黨政府還多如果以比例來看喔"},{"start":306.152,"end":333.306,"text":"所以我們不分藍綠因為這是地方需要不分藍綠這是民眾需要只要地方需要民眾需要我們政府就要去協助一樣如果這個所謂的高速鐵路的部分真的需要不用用什麼特別條例啊該做就去做否則如果每一個地方都要一個特別條例"},{"start":334.841,"end":359.939,"text":"那我們臺南也要一個特別條例啊對不對尤其你看我們的水庫預期成這樣我們也跟他說啊清淤特別條例可以嗎?也可以啊因為它影響的是所有民生的用水經濟的用水這大不大?是南部地方耶整個經濟脈絡經濟的發展耶"},{"start":362.591,"end":390.172,"text":"那我們是不是可以也設一個所謂清淤整個水庫而且所有水庫幾乎在我們臺南大型水庫直接供應經濟能量的都在我們臺南所以我們就成立一個所謂水庫清淤特別條例再編一個水庫清淤特別預算每一個地方都一個特別條例特別預算"},{"start":392.95,"end":416.071,"text":"主委你覺得呢?所以我們還是說現在重大的公共工程都有既有的機制在進行我們認為循現在的機制來辦是比較恰當的因為既有的機制我們剛才提到的可行性評估要慢慢堆疊啦要慢慢堆疊啦準備工作做得更扎實的話後面施工就可以比較順利而且"},{"start":418.533,"end":436.714,"text":"人民也不會到最後是看得到吃不中,好像明明有在做,哇!卡關!因為有一個所謂的環境敏感地帶,我們沒有去評估到,動不了!要不要停下來?要啊!現在環境優先!"},{"start":439.016,"end":439.036,"text":"好!"}]}},{"id":"150776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c031ab6a993e965edc82ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6eb3e375b409096655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:58:17 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持那這條線為什麼因為每天我有觀察尤其在"},{"start":308.034,"end":328.538,"text":"陳公路阿包括旁邊有條停頂道路每天上下班塞得很嚴重那今天要是能夠因為當初它是什麼是南北線的一個一段阿其實這個事情可以解決很多當地民眾搭車的困擾那這個我近期裡面也會排一個會刊部長"},{"start":331.239,"end":354.386,"text":"請你的那些單位能夠積極的推好不好好現在就是臺北市政府要提出計畫了我看起來他們現在目前都有共識我也很支持就是當時南北縣現在等於說重新再對對對其實當初要是做到內湖那時候因為那時候的那個臺北市的那個協運局局長叫長崎德那時候才1064億而已現在要3000億"},{"start":358.362,"end":372.866,"text":"所以說此一時彼一時啊當初本來就應該做但是前一任臺北市兩任的前市長齁臺北市決議一條都沒有做真可惜啦真的那時候做現在已經解決內科的問題了以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c053ffcaba1fd551b882ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a63957789e7d8fc2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:50:02 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謝謝趙偉 麻煩邀請我們部長請部長廖委好好 部長好 這個今天這個訊息準備喔 就加油啦我這個有另外的問題想要請教部長有關我們台灣這個也跟交通跟科技一個問題啦我們 我過去擔任議員的時候我們交通部都有補助一些自駕的一些巴士嘛 對不對"},{"start":30.535,"end":53.173,"text":"但去年有一個消息這個新聞是經濟部主導的一個案子經濟部有主導就是一個科技研發就是自駕的部分然後把產業輸出到澳洲然後在澳洲的高速公路來實行這個自駕的技術那不曉得我們交通部對於這樣子的一個消息你們有瞭解嗎"},{"start":58.106,"end":75.123,"text":"跟委員報告一下,剛剛講的說那個技術輸出到澳洲這個部分,我們是沒有這個掌握你又沒有掌握是不是臺大團隊那個嗎?應該是經濟部輔導,應該是工研院就是說我們目前交通部是在自駕在我們自衛運輸這一塊"},{"start":77.344,"end":103.634,"text":"市長我們輔導過相當多的團隊在比如說現在這個淡海淡海淡海有在跑像過去在這個臺中高雄都有類似這個自駕車我們公務總局在這個西濱也有類似的計畫但是的確產業的輔導這一塊是在經濟部但是我們是做就是所謂的這個從POC開始的一些到POV的這個這個是我們在做但是產業的輔導會在這個經濟部這一部"},{"start":106.055,"end":129.001,"text":"好 沒關係 這個會後當然交通部可以去了解一下當然今天還有時間我們也可以先來討論一下因為在自駕這部分自駕應該會分兩個部分的需求因為一個部分是載人一個是載貨當然都是自駕的技術但是會主要分成這兩項那我們交通部目前都是主導主要發展載人這一個部分載貨這部分比較少著墨"},{"start":129.741,"end":139.547,"text":"那但是其實載人的門檻來說相對比較高無論是安全性的要求或是跟乘客的一些溝通解決乘客的需求其實在"},{"start":140.731,"end":161.513,"text":"公車自駕之間上面的門檻是比較高一點反而是在貨運上面的一個自駕的需求相對會比較低一些因為他不用處理人的問題他處理交通安全的問題就好了那因為其實我們如果說部長平常我在國一上班時間經過的時候會發現尤其在台北段我相信全台灣各個路段都會一樣"},{"start":162.974,"end":183.382,"text":"我們的連結車所佔的比例是相當高的嘛相當高的然後又跟我們的上班族通行在一起的時候就變成說交通都非常的擁捨那如果說我們不知道我們的高中局有沒有曾經討論過也讓我們的高速公路引進這個自駕的一個系統"},{"start":185.221,"end":210.212,"text":"我瞭解是這樣就是說的確因為交通部以公共運輸為先所以我們用巴士來當作我們這個從研發一直到上路的這個這個過程那目前在貨物部分像我們的我們貨物反而是在那個封閉室比如說由這個郵政的倉儲管理裡面他也類似在在這個在在比如說在這個檢貨的時候會類似用這種方式來處理"},{"start":214.053,"end":226.106,"text":"那的確目前交通部是沒有針對這個後車但是未來就是說自駕車的社會是全世界都在跑所以我想說應該是從忍到後這邊"},{"start":230.832,"end":252.893,"text":"這個應該也是都未來的一個因為我是一定是正面看待這件事情那我今天才會來跟我們交通部來討論因為我們的技術既然都已經輸出到國外去了那我代表這個東西我們國內應該也是應該先持一個比較開放性的態度來做一些討論尤其現在運輸業部長也知道缺司機缺的非常嚴重嘛"},{"start":253.453,"end":276.316,"text":"那包括如果說我們可以在不同的時段用自駕的技術讓這些貨車不要避免在這個交通尖峰的時刻在路上跑我們盡量讓他自駕的時間自駕因為他人力少嘛他也可以可能一個人可以一開始從一台兩台三台一定是慢慢這樣加上去在離峰的時段運用我們高速公路路權然後把我們尖峰時段的"},{"start":277.056,"end":279.478,"text":"自駕方面的安全性一定比人駕還來得高"},{"start":303.935,"end":307.817,"text":"我們現在有一個從113到119的電動公車的一個計畫補助計畫其中有一項如果你有自駕的這些補助我們會再增加一些補助有那個自駕的設備我們會增加補助"},{"start":327.008,"end":343.061,"text":"所以我當時在他們寫這個計畫我特別跟他們講說應該把這些先進未來導向自駕的東西放在補助計畫一塊這意思是說所有的縣市政府或客運工在申請的時候他也會有個力量是往這個自駕方面來發展"},{"start":343.982,"end":372.594,"text":"那委員所提到的貨運的確我們交通部還是以這個安全冷為主那我想到這部分可能後面我們會從沙盒開始POC開始我們來處理是所以我們應該先第一步應該後續如果說部長持開放的態度的話那應該第一步我們應該先跟經濟部來瞭解一下他們輔導的一個技術在基本上的成熟程度那以及在澳洲到底上路了沒那他這個可能在事情的這段期間他的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":374.375,"end":400.251,"text":"第二部分當然就是因為現在台灣國內的運輸業者原則上都還是民間所以說後續可能也是要輔導如果說前面經濟部在國外的示範推廣是可行的那要引進國內的話那可能會遇到哪些問題這可能也會需要有一些短中長期的計畫一部分是高速公路的一些硬體的設備的建置因為他可能需要很多的一些相關的為了提升安全他需要很多一些通訊或者是攝影的設備"},{"start":401.112,"end":402.393,"text":"我們現在有交通部有一個做了很多應該109開始的實驗場域在淡海"},{"start":426.332,"end":442.971,"text":"那是我們跟新北合作的所以它裡面就是所謂V2X的部分也做得很完整所以它可以比如說自駕車或自駕貨車事實上都可以做測試所以剛才談到有一些從沙爾開始的部分我們這個場域是足夠的"},{"start":443.591,"end":460.314,"text":"既然我們台灣有這麼好的一個技術可以輸出到國內那我請我們交通部後續來繼續來推動這個計畫看看是不是能夠在多少的時間內可以有一個短中長期的一個計畫或者說至少有一個可行性評估之類的來做一個瞭解這樣子做後車的部分是不是後車的部分"},{"start":461.314,"end":477.064,"text":"我再跟我們IT部門是不是我給我一點時間然後我給一個書面報告沒關係沒關係就是短期間內我們了解到什麼程度那未來可能怎麼可以怎麼樣來推動我們可以兩個禮拜給委員一個書面報告好那就謝謝部長感謝謝謝趙偉"}]}},{"id":"150774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c058b91ae456b4c0df91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6070ff8382138e9675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:48:35 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12:00:45","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":730,"end_time":"2024-04-01T12:00:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:48:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時48分）你好，請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我想要請教，因為其實金門相關的事件，前幾位委員也都有談到，最近包含它水域還有無人機侵擾，也不是第一次了，有委員之前提到已經有6次相關的狀況。","我們知道有無人機處置作為，無人機處置作為是沒有在公開場合揭露的，當然還有一定的準則、標準在。有一定的準則、標準，有一定的流程，但是它還是不斷地出現6次，所以6次都沒有學到教訓？還是6次都沒有想正確的方法因應？如果說是流程有問題，是不是流程要檢討？我想請教一下相關單位是怎麼看這件事情的。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這件事情開頭，我們以前也發生過，所以依據那個發生過的經驗，我們訂一些不管訓練、流程、怎麼處置要領，連同處置的規定都訂得清清楚楚。我跟委員這樣報告，不代表講我要把這個責任推給人家，因為我們已經先檢討過，一看這狀況，就是一個訓練沒有落實。但我們要從強化訓練落實方面來著手，而這個程序跟這個目標怎麼使用，方法都已經訂得很清楚。我覺得如果還再發覺缺失的話，我們再一步一步來加強改進。但初步了解，就是人員編組，以及反應這個程序大概有落空的地方，很抱歉。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我之所以問這一題的原因，是因為它也不是第一次出現。如果每一次檢討沒有辦法更精進作為，從這個短影音看起來，這些兵士的作為跟上次、跟上上次沒有太大的區別。那沒有太大的區別的意思就是說，要嘛就是流程出了問題，要嘛就是訓練出了問題。","剛才其實有相關單位跟我們來分享，我覺得就是針對這件事情都有在做檢討，只是想說你們的演練狀態是怎麼樣？訓練多久？演練多少次了？有沒有把各種可能的劇本先做一些操演？剛才聽說有些可能是在漁船上面起飛的無人機，有些可能是從廈門那邊來的無人機，你們內部練習、操演、因應大概有多少次了？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，從上次這個事情發生以後，我們就講說你要訓練，要先設定狀況。而這個狀況的設定，就你曾經發生過的，而且講得很清楚，這不是主觀坐在辦公室來決定，有船上飛起來怎麼樣，有海面上來怎麼辦。不是！他只要講說有第一線，第一線曾經遇到什麼狀況，就把那個狀況當作一個設定，設定幹什麼？設定完了以後，做一個訓練的範本，就依據！因為有海上來的，可能跟對岸飛過來不一樣，在時間方面，那你訓練的方法就不一樣。","但我們只要把它簡單化，只要有目標在我們上空，這個程序是不會變的，不管它從哪裡來。現在金防部，尤其是外離島這些同仁，它就算已經上空了，已經不研究這個飛機從哪裡來了，所以這是我們要強化的。從觀念到具體作為，到主觀的督導，到我們幕僚去看，到底有沒有到定位，我們真的還有滿大一個檢討空間，但我們加強吧！我會努力，我會努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。主要的倒也不是說這件事情實質上面可能會造成對當地軍民的傷害而已，當然是他們可以透過影音的剪輯，甚至會再做一些虛假亂的訊息，說臺軍怎麼樣慌亂等等。我們直接看影片，當然是知道說這一切如常，沒有因為這樣慌亂走避等等，但是他們可以這樣做，如果他們這樣做的話，我們反制的方法又是什麼？","比方說我們成功反制的時候，對我們來講也是一個重大的、可以獎懲的機制，就是成功地反制它之後，同樣地可以把這樣子的影音來去傳送，讓他們知道我們有能力去反制，而且我們成功反制過。對於他們在這種侵擾的時候來做為資訊戰的一部分，我認為也是一個方式。","謝謝部長，那也麻煩部長能夠儘量減少這樣子的次數，因為已經有6次了，不希望有第8次、第9次、第10次。那當然他們每一次都可能會有一些新的做法，那也麻煩再多想一些因應的作為。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，這是我們應該要做的，除了要禁止……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。第二個部分關於潛艦國造的規劃，未來我看我們的總統當選人有提到要一次把它全部完成。當潛艦的數量達到10艘之後，我們必須要先做規劃，包含如果遇到急難狀況時潛艦深海救難的能量。我想請問現在海軍有沒有潛艦救難相關的裝備，或者是有沒有跟盟國簽署相關的救難協議，來因應這樣子的挑戰？"],["邱部長國正：是，我請海軍參謀長跟您做說明。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，我是海軍參謀長。因應潛艦兵力次第成軍，揆於未來，我們也覺得未來有必要增加整個潛艦的救難，以及相關海底資料的蒐集。在未來的規劃，我們已經在5年兵力整建部分，針對一個綜合型的海洋綜合資源艦，針對潛艦的部分，會做一個全方位的一個……目前在建案階段，跟委員報告。另外，當然必要的潛艦出去執行任務的時候，我們有一些配套的做法，跟相關區域的協商機制都有的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請教是自己擁有，還是去跟其他的我們可信賴的國家有這樣的服務？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這個目前是有的，但是細節部分不方便在這邊說。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，反正有準備就對了？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：已經有預先規劃，那很重要。我們之所以講到這件事情，其實也不是只有潛艦而已啦！海面下的一些事物其實很多的，包含數位發展部在強化海底電纜等等。海底電纜修復的能量，這個部分我不知道跟國防部有沒有直接的關聯性？因為這個通訊可能跟交通比較有關聯，但同時它又是我們國防安全重要的一部分。","我想請教，像是遇到共方在針對戰時或者是非戰時，如果把我們的海底電纜破壞時，我們有沒有跟其他國家有相關服務的簽署或者是協助？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，因為海底電纜是交通部在主導，但我們並沒有脫開，因為在外島我們的通訊也是必要的。但我們並不只仰賴海底電纜，所以國軍在這一方面，從有海底電纜之前，通聯的方法就已經不斷在精進，有光纖，用光纖；沒有光纖之前，不管是潛龍線等等，以前還有微波。","所以現在這個狀況發生了以後，對國軍不能講影響不大，但影響比較小，因為我們畢竟有很多其他備援的手段。影響比較大的大概也就民間要跟島內來通聯，會造成他不方便，有心理方面的問題，所以我想這有很大努力的空間。事實上將來國軍如果在這樣通訊無虞的話，是不是也可以大家來做一個合作？怎麼樣來強化、補強，這都可以討論的。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為其實海底電纜中方需要破壞的話，那相關的情資、情報，可能國防部的情蒐機關也麻煩以後能夠真的是跨部門地做協處，因為之前在馬祖那邊好像有類似的情事出現……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們無法去判斷是蓄意或非蓄意，所以這方面的軍情可能也是需要共同來討論。","接下來想要討論一下我們嘉義民雄的航太暨無人機院區這個部分，謝謝。","其實這個部分我們也多次，包含在院會也有跟部長談到，有分東西兩邊，一部分由中科院直接去處理，另外一部分目前應該是由國發會還是經濟部去主導等等的。還是希望部會之間的本位主義儘量不要有，剛才聽到前幾位委員談到通過什麼受理廠商等等，2020年8月總共只有12家或者是18家廠商等等的。如果這樣子，我們現在商用的這些建置，能夠大量生產，或者是能夠被軍方使用，其實這個時間來看，我是覺得都要花滿久的時間，從2021年8月到現在2024年，時間也不短了。","我們還是希望說，不管是你要去審，或者是剛才陳永康將軍有講到duediligence的部分，其實我們要設立一個期限，不然到時候你說有一千多家來，最後18家、12家，那時間再拖過去的話，對於一般的企業來講，時間就是他們商業根本的精神，他們沒有辦法、也沒有能力拖下去。那能夠參與投資，或者是說他們的能力有沒有夠，我們其實之前看到中科院的一些技轉廠商做不出等等的，我是希望說我們可以放開一點，不用本位主義。","我當然知道現在國家安全裡面有很多的什麼零件、部件，我們都希望能夠完整地審查完，可是如果你要快速地武獲、快速地使用這些商用的，特別是我們的無人機產業，未來在嘉義縣它都會是很重要的一部分。我們希望說這個流程有沒有辦法去加速？就是說你已經確認完之後，這家公司背後第一個有沒有中資，第二點它沒有這些相關的疑慮之後，這一個數據庫是不是可以增大一點？就是說以後不要花那麼久的時間，3年、4年，不知道這個部分，院長有什麼樣的看法？"],["張院長忠誠：是。跟委員報告一下，剛才委員提到本位主義，其實我跟委員報告確實是沒有。這個計畫未來一定是嘉義縣政府、經濟部還有中科院我們三方共同協力來做。那為了加速，就是說我們趕快核定之後，能夠廠商進駐，我們事先也調查了，目前有56家廠商有意願馬上要來進駐，所以這方面我們都提前來做規劃，跟委員做個報告，都有提前在做。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，大家辛苦了。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.38534375,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.34284375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":3.2034687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.77596875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":20.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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我是海軍參謀長因應潛艦的兵力的次第的沉居那睽以未來我們也覺得未來有必要增加這個整個的潛艦的救難以及相關的海底的這個資料的收集那我們也會在未來規劃我們已經在五年兵力整建部分針對一個中和型的海洋的中和資源艦來針對潛艦的部分會做一個全方位的一個目前在建案階段跟委員報告"},{"start":378.866,"end":380.748,"text":"請教的是說自己擁有還是去跟其他的我們可信賴的國家來有這樣的服務?"},{"start":397.146,"end":421.168,"text":"這個目前是有的,但是細節部分不方便在這邊說。反正有準備就對了,已經有預先規劃,那很重要。我們之所以講到這件事情,其實也不是只有潛艦而已。海面下的一些事務其實很多的,包含數位部、數位發展部在強化海底電纜等等。海底電纜的修復的能量,"},{"start":422.343,"end":438.414,"text":"這個部分我不知道跟國防部有沒有直接的關聯性因為這個通訊可能跟交通比較有關聯但同時它又是我們國防安全的重要的一部分那我想請教就是說有沒有相關的像是遇到"},{"start":439.275,"end":452.915,"text":"共方如果在針對戰時或者是非戰時來去把我們的這種海底電纜做破壞的時候我們有沒有跟其他國家有相關服務的簽署或者是協助"},{"start":454.705,"end":478.716,"text":"海底電纜是交通部在那邊主導,但我們並沒有脫開,因為在外島我們的通訊也是必要的,但我們並不只仰賴海底電纜,所以國軍在這一方面從有海底電纜之前,它通聯的方法就已經不但在精進,有光纖用光纖,沒有光纖之前,不管是淺龍線等等的,還有微波,"},{"start":481.437,"end":500.439,"text":"所以現在這個狀況發生了以後對國軍不能講影響不大但影響比較小因為我們畢竟有很多其他備援的手段所以影響比較大的大概也就民間要跟島內來通聯會造成他不方便有心理方面的問題"},{"start":501.6,"end":512.784,"text":"這我想說這有很大努力的空間事實上將來做國軍在這樣通訊無虞的話是也可以大家來做一個合作怎麼來強化補強這都可以討論的"},{"start":516.181,"end":532.464,"text":"因為其實這個海底電纜那有可能中方的這些需要破壞的話那相關的情資情報那可能國防部的這些禽獸的機關也麻煩就是說以後能夠真的是跨部門的來去"},{"start":533.325,"end":533.485,"text":"主席"},{"start":561.658,"end":587.45,"text":"其實這一個部分我們也多次包含在院會有跟部長談到有分東西兩邊那一部分由中科院直接去處理另外一部分目前應該是由國發會還是經濟部去主導等等的那還是希望說就是部會之間的本位主義盡量是不要有因為我們剛才聽到說前幾位委員都一直在談到"},{"start":589.155,"end":589.215,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":619.375,"end":635.515,"text":"你要去審或者是剛才陳永康將軍有講到的Due Diligence的部分其實我們要設定一個期限不然到時候你說有一千多家來然後最後18家、12家那時間再拖過去的話其實對於一般的企業來講"},{"start":637.497,"end":656.391,"text":"時間就是他們的商業的根本的精神,他們沒有辦法也沒有能力去拖下去,那能夠參與投資或者是說他們的能力有沒有夠,我們其實之前看到中科院的一些計轉廠商做不出等等的,我是希望說我們可以放開一點這個不用本位主義,因為"},{"start":657.712,"end":673.395,"text":"我當然知道說現在國家安全裡面有很多的什麼零件部件我們都需要說能夠完整的審查完之後可是如果你要快速的捂貨快速的使用這些商用的特別是我們的無人機產業未來在嘉義縣它都會是很重要的一部分"},{"start":674.136,"end":693.413,"text":"我們希望說這個流程有沒有辦法去加速就是說你已經確認完之後這家公司他背後第一個沒有中資第二點他沒有這些相關的疑慮之後這一個數據庫是不是可以增大一點就是說以後不要花那麼久的時間三年四年不知道這個部分院長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":695.586,"end":714.691,"text":"跟委員報告一樣中科院剛才委員提到本月主席其實跟委員報告確實是沒有這個計畫未來一定是嘉義縣政府、經濟部還有中科院我們共同三方共同協力來做那為了加速就是說我們趕快核定之後能夠常常進駐我們事先也調查了"},{"start":715.171,"end":722.384,"text":"目前有56家廠商有意願馬上要來進駐,所以這方面我們都提前來做規劃,都有提前在做。"}]}},{"id":"150773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c056f795583077c5be0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a638ee3d2e11fcb60b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:48:34 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這個都有方案我講這個不是要刁難啦我意思是說本來我們國家針對所謂比較特殊的一些區域為了它的平衡發展那我們就會有這樣的規劃所以包括有離島包括有花東特別條例那這些離島跟花東特別條例也都有特別預算在做支應所以我覺得事實上我們國家是很應該是很均衡的照顧"},{"start":198.706,"end":198.886,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":215.553,"end":232.95,"text":"極度的不公平因為就講到這種區域發展的失衡國土計劃法的不公平就在於說我們國土計劃法把很多地方列為所謂農一、列為農二然後在很多山坡地或者是海口這個河流的出海口列為保護區"},{"start":235.816,"end":264.133,"text":"那你把這些列為保護區勒等於它這個地方的土地的利用是受到限制的那如果相對於城鄉、城市裡面勒幾乎沒有農一或農二保護區也很少阿整咖差不多都承擔這樣的一些責任農一農二這樣的一個責任阿既然我就承擔這麼多年啦那我承擔的這部分是不是應該要從統籌分配管"},{"start":265.889,"end":287.548,"text":"國家要統籌分配的時候我竟然承擔的農一農二我竟然承擔的有這樣的保護區那我這樣佔的一個比例以全國來算我有佔的這樣的比喻我為了國家的糧食安全我為了國家的這個用水的保護我竟然承擔的這樣責任國家並沒有說這樣我統籌分配要給這裡的縣市就多少這個事情沒有說白"},{"start":294.396,"end":304.016,"text":"所以我覺得主委因為國發會嘛幾乎是只要涉及到跨部會審議的部分你們都會參與所以我覺得我這樣的一個建議主委你支持嗎?"},{"start":305.659,"end":325.85,"text":"因為統籌分配款是財政部主政他有一套他的公式他的公式事實上都是來自財政收支法劃分法財政收支法我現在指的是統籌分配不是只補助那一塊如果是補助了可能財政部自己內部去做評估那統籌分配款都法律定的是"},{"start":327.208,"end":351.437,"text":"是定死的那我是意思就是說我們應該要提出修法不然你這個國土計劃法一旦上路了對於像雲林啦、像嘉義啦甚至像花蓮啦、台東啦沒說白嘛他那都保護區啊他這個國家守護了這麼多的這麼多的土地被綁死的不能開發的"},{"start":352.912,"end":356.694,"text":"對於農一農二的這個我們也知道農業部他有編列的很多相關預算來支持這個農業縣市那統籌分配那個可不可以做我不敢保證但是農業部可以來強化對於"},{"start":381.671,"end":407.871,"text":"農業縣市的支持我想農業部本來也一直在這樣做對 這個我相信農業部當然會站在支持農業但是我們沒有一個對於說因應國土計劃法那我們對於所謂他在這個縣市裡面他承擔了這樣的責任不然你現在叫各縣市去提報我這個縣市要有多少的農藝要有多少的農業我縣市多少是屬於保護區那誰會出來"},{"start":410.693,"end":432.018,"text":"一旦提出來等於宣告這裡土地的人他未來他的土地的利用是被綁死的所以你要相對讓縣市說如果我這個縣市我承擔了更多的農一農二我承擔了更多的保護區我可以得到更多的統籌分配至少我對這個地方的發展是相對性的是可以帶動的"},{"start":433.383,"end":451.32,"text":"這樣的話才能叫這個國土計畫法才是叫做完整的嘛,否則就是強者恆強,弱者恆弱。例如說六都他們大概他們的都市範圍比較多,六都裡面還有那個也是有城鄉差別,更不用說非六都。"},{"start":452.939,"end":478.033,"text":"那以後就是大家都在搶我的我裡面的建地越多我越發電,那邊的建地越少他就白死了,他就沒作用了所以我覺得這件事情很不公平所以國土計劃法要上路前一定要先把所謂的財政收支的一個分配也要先公平性要先把它定出來才會有公平的這個土地的一個利用好不好主委"},{"start":479.23,"end":479.27,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c037d549ecea941f389e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6d1fda4089bab4e905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:38:38 - 11:51:47","影片長度":"00:13:09","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":789,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:51:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:38:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長、所有列席的同仁們，大家早安，主席也辛苦了。國會改革缺一不可，程序正義、合憲及合規、權責相符，我想周秘書長應當都會同意缺一不可。我非常同意剛剛傅崐萁總召所說的，國會改革一定要成功，但是國會改革要走在對的方向，國會改革不是國會擴權，國會有權就要有責，民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革，但是要在正確的方向，在合憲合規的方向，在權責相符的方向。","秘書長，其實這個問題也不用就教於您，我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道，法律位階的基本概念就是簡報上這個金三角，最下面是行政命令，中間是法律，上面是憲法，換言之，任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法。至於右邊這個圖，藍色的線就是現在國民黨跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本，他們的國會改革是權大於責，甚至是一味地擴權；綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本，我們力求權責相符，當我們給了國會更大的權力，我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟課責，問政監督的量能要予以提升。所以首先我要再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場：第一個，國會改革不是兒戲，不能競相喊價，重大的法案召開公聽會，這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛；第二個立場，就如同剛剛的金字塔，該修憲就修憲，修法是不能凌駕憲法的；第三個，如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案，那麼民進黨將會聲請憲法法庭予以釋憲，進行快速的處分來暫緩施行，過去也有這樣的例子，這是民進黨的三大立場。","秘書長在這裡，您一定印象非常深刻，歷屆的修憲在立法院，公聽會是開好開滿的，甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣。我今天舉出了3屆，第10屆針對修憲的議案開了2場公聽會，而第10屆的公聽會我人就在國會現場，針對三權分立、是不是要廢考監，這是一個憲政層級的討論，而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立，還是維持五權分立，它就跟國會的職能息息相關；第8屆開了10場公聽會，在修憲的時候，同樣的，基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立，這也跟國會的職權息息相關，所以有10場公聽會，那個時候是國民黨居國會多數。第5屆修憲，針對是不是要實行單一選區、是不是要實行立委減半，開了6場公聽會，同樣是攸關憲政層級，所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一，秘書長，你同意我的意思吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：公聽會本身是由委員會……"],["吳委員思瑤：回答我的問題，國會改革與憲政相關，它是必要的配套，要一併考量，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：公聽會的舉行，並不一定是說必要不必要，按議題，當然由委員會自己來裁定。"],["吳委員思瑤：那您覺得我們第5屆、第8屆、第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會，是不是能夠有利於匯聚很多的修憲共識？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，公聽會的舉辦本來就是要有利害關係人，有學者專家來相聚。"],["吳委員思瑤：匯聚更多的共識嘛！您在國會現場多年，思瑤我從20歲在立法院擔任助理開始，我也同樣在國會現場，所以說國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一，過去修憲我們嚴謹地透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與，擴大了專業的參與，我相信這一次如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的。","公聽會是有利於法案審議，有利於匯聚社會共識，我要再次說明，這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會？第一個，因為國會改革的法案有夠多！目前國民黨、民眾黨提了20案，民進黨的黨版進來，再加上個別委員的立場，法案進來可能有二、三十案，法案多的時候，就需要花多一點時間來匯聚共識；第二個，國會改革的層面廣，當然涉及修憲，我就不再贅述；第三個，正因為多年來社會沒有共識，今天一整個上午，很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年，不用再討論了，直接修就好！天啊！正因為20年的時間，社會沒有高度的共識，我們更需要透過社會的參與、專業的參與來凝聚社會共識，為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢？為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢？為什麼國民黨害怕專業的專家學者一起參與討論呢？難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們禁不起社會檢驗的版本，在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎？我相信不是，所以有公聽會，why not？任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把，社會共識可以讓我們更有利地走在一起。","再來，屆期不連續，周萬來老師，您的書寫很多，這是國會運作的ABC，屆期不連續，因為新國會有新民意，新國會有新民意！更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新民意，就像在座的翁曉玲委員，她是法學博士，所以有新民意，有新的專業，屆期不連續，任何的法案就應當重新來討論，這就是您書上所說的嘛！新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論、界定的機會，對不對？所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年，這一切就不用再討論了？這完全推翻了屆期不連續的國會運作原理，秘書長，您一直點頭如搗蒜，您接受我的看法。","我要很嚴正地說，很多國民黨、民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本，難道2024的此時此刻，任何一個生活在2024這一個時空的人，一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎？如果是這樣的話，社會不需要進步，修法就是木乃伊就好了，修法不是修文化資產、復舊如舊耶！為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過？民進黨是國會多數，正因為社會沒有共識，民進黨願意花時間再跟社會對話，所以即使在民進黨是國會多數的時候，2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強渡關山，我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員。","第二個問題，2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同，不行嗎？我要再次說，我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組召集人，當我們在審議、在討論法案的時候，我們很真切地回到過去的版本，確實有違憲之虞，確實沒有社會足夠的支持，所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視，沒有全盤照收，因為社會在與時俱進，我們的法案當然要與時俱進，這也是屆期不連續很重要的一個精神。所以秘書長，我在這裡要衡平地說，如果承認過去的主張，今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了，我們沒有勇敢去修正它的話，我認為才愧對良心。我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案召集人，我要說，也許5年後、10年後，2035年再回來看2024年民進黨的國會改革版本，都還有很大的改善空間，因為時代會改變嘛！所以我在這裡要告訴所有國民黨、民眾黨的委員，不要給人家扣帽子，當年民進黨這樣講，今年你就一定要照單全收，那就是不進步，那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已。","如果同一標準，過去的主張不能改，國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊！針對總統到立法院即問即答這件事情，2015的馬英九總統辦公室說總統到國會備詢是違反憲法；王金平院長2015年說只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲，所以主張不是不能改啊！不能去脈絡化啊！如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要捍守到底，那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢即問即答是違憲的，你們的馬英九前總統這麼說，你們的王金平前院長這麼說。更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠即問即答且常態化地備詢，都說這是違憲，這是國際的笑話。","我最後一點點時間，謝謝主席多給我1分鐘。國會改革不是國會擴權，權責相符才是真改革，我們的法案今天會送出，我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好地來研議、研究民進黨的版本，有不好的地方我們接受，可以在審查的過程再做討論，因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛！透過討論，透過跟社會的對話，透過專業的參與，透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益，我們才能夠讓國會真正地改革前進啊！所以我跟您預告，我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求，我們唯有提升自我的問政量能，我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源，幫助我們的法制局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人事可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來，我們的問政量能才能提升。國會需要跟上國際，我們需要新的資通安全處，國會要有資安長，才能夠讓國會所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善。我相信秘書長都會支持，打造一個權責相符的專業國會，幫國會議員問政必要的幕僚功能提升，這是幫立法院一把，幫國家一把，您都支持吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，我會把你們的版本交給法制局一併去研議。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以法制局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源。","我最後的結論是，任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中，我們就是對話，而不是一再地傾斜於擴權的改革，我想社會不會支持。如果國會不自我要求，一味地自我擴權，那這不是一個國會對於人民擺出要改革的起手式，這不會是一個好的典範，大家三思。我時間到了，謝謝秘書長，謝謝大家。"],["主席：下一位請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.535343750000003,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.45096875,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.78784375,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.820968750000006,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.53596875,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.83096875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.01159375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.46159375,"end":83.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.77721875,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.63596875,"end":100.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.42034375,"end":124.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.15909375000001,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.04784375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.76034375,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.51034375,"end":163.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.98846875,"end":168.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.59534375,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.53534375,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.49659375000002,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.41596875000002,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.74909375000001,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.03159375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.68534375000002,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.31721875000002,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.62409375000001,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.81659375000004,"end":265.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.43659375000004,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.63471875,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.36846875000003,"end":279.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.12221875,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.47846875000005,"end":307.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.20221875000004,"end":313.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.87221875,"end":316.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.04471875,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.15784375000004,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.70971875000004,"end":328.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.87409375000004,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.42659375,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.01534375,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.28096875,"end":355.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.34659375,"end":359.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.29534375000003,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.82221875000005,"end":380.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.43971875,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.53659375,"end":384.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.83159375,"end":386.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.62034375,"end":389.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.94471875000005,"end":393.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.42096875000004,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.46284375000005,"end":396.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.79159375,"end":406.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.71846875,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.74659375000005,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.88971875000004,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.65096875,"end":449.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.68221875,"end":450.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.20096875,"end":452.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.47909375,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.99659375000005,"end":472.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.93596875000003,"end":482.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.66846875000005,"end":487.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.41471875,"end":489.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.11471875,"end":492.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49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有請周萬來秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":15.694,"end":17.355,"text":"國會改革一定要成功但是國會改革要走在對的方向"},{"start":44.152,"end":61.419,"text":"國會改革不是國會擴權國會有權就要有責民主進步黨絕對支持國會改革但是要在正確的方向在合憲合規的方向在權責相輔的方向下一頁我想秘書長"},{"start":64.915,"end":83.538,"text":"其實這個問題也不用就教於您了我們只要有基本的公民素養都知道這個法律未接的基本概念就是這個金三角最下面是行政命令中間是法律上面是憲法換言之任何的修法不能夠凌駕憲法"},{"start":84.844,"end":99.243,"text":"而右邊這個圖呢也就是藍色的線就是國民黨現在跟民眾黨藍白兩黨的版本他們的國會改革是權大於責甚至就是一味的擴權"},{"start":100.764,"end":124.056,"text":"綠色的線是民主進步黨的版本我們力求權責相符當我們給了國會更大的權力我們就要要求立委自身的問責跟克責問政監督的量能要予以提升所以首先我要先再次強調民進黨國會改革的幾個重大立場"},{"start":125.477,"end":144.094,"text":"國會改革不是兒戲不能競相喊架重大的法案召開公聽會這個程序正義我們一定要捍衛第二個立場就如同剛剛這個金字塔該修憲就修憲修法是不能凌駕憲法的第三個"},{"start":145.583,"end":162.558,"text":"如果在野黨強行以多數來通過違憲的國會改革法案,那民進黨將會申請我們的憲法法庭予以釋憲,進行快速的處分來暫緩施行。過去也有這樣的例子。這是民進黨的三大立場下頁。"},{"start":164.045,"end":173.119,"text":"民眾黨在這裡喔你一定非常的印象深刻歷屆的修憲在立法院公聽會是開好開滿的甚至是藍綠執政的時候都一樣"},{"start":179.548,"end":186.112,"text":"我今天舉出了三屆第十屆針對修憲的議案開了兩場公聽會而第十屆的公聽會我仍舊在這個國會現場針對三權分立是不是要廢考監這是一個憲政層級的討論而憲政層級的討論是不是要三權分立還是維持五權分立它就跟國會的職能息息相關"},{"start":204.324,"end":219.041,"text":"第8屆開了10場的公聽會在修憲的時候他同樣的基於五權分立要不要改成三權分立這也跟國會的職權息息相關所以有10場的公聽會那個時候是國民黨基於國會多數"},{"start":220.442,"end":237.777,"text":"第五屆修憲是不是要實行單一選區是不是要實行我們立委的檢辦開了六場公聽會這同樣是攸關憲政層級所以說國會改革就是憲政配套之一律師王你同意我的意思吧"},{"start":239.056,"end":263.228,"text":"公聽會本身是由委員（回答我的問題博會改革跟憲政相關他是必要的配套要一併的考完公聽會的舉行並不一定是說會必要不必要你按一個議題當然由委員會自己來改變您覺得我們第5屆第8屆第10屆開了這麼多場公聽會是不是能夠有利於匯聚我們很多的修憲共識公聽會"},{"start":266.585,"end":271.326,"text":"國會改革就是憲政制度的配套之一過去修憲我們嚴謹的透過公聽會擴大了民間的參與擴大的專業的參與我相信這一次我們如果能夠擴大這樣的參與是更好的下一頁"},{"start":295.57,"end":309.669,"text":"所以說公聽會是有利於法案審議有利於匯聚社會共識我要再次說明這一次我們為什麼需要公聽會因為國會改革的法案有夠多目前國民黨民眾黨提了20案民進黨的黨版進來個別委員的立場"},{"start":313.954,"end":337.138,"text":"法案進來可能有二、三十案法案多的時候就需要花多一點時間來彙具共識第二個國會改革的層面廣當然涉及修憲我就不再贅述第三點正因為多年來社會沒有共識今天一整個上午很多在野黨的委員說國會改革講了20年不用再討論了直接修就好"},{"start":343.103,"end":344.564,"text":"為什麼國民黨害怕公聽會呢?"},{"start":360.536,"end":376.06,"text":"為什麼國民黨害怕社會參與呢?為什麼國民黨害怕專業界的專家學者一起參與討論呢?難道國民黨害怕公聽會是因為他們經不起社會檢驗的版本在公聽會的討論之下會一一現形嗎?我相信不是。"},{"start":381.545,"end":393.939,"text":"所以有公聽會Why not?任何一個爭議法案有公聽會就是幫立法院一把社會共識可以讓我們更有利的走在一起下一頁借其不連續"},{"start":397.85,"end":416.625,"text":"周恩來老師您的書寫很多這是國會運作的ABC借其不連續因為新國會有新名義因為新國會有新名義更何況本屆的新國會裡頭有很多的新名義就像我們在座的翁小林委員他是法學博士"},{"start":417.955,"end":431.95,"text":"所以有新民意有新的專業藉其不連續任何的法案就應當重新來討論。這就是您書上所說的嘛。新民意就是讓新的議案有重新討論界定的機會。對不對?"},{"start":433.732,"end":452.117,"text":"所以為什麼國民黨委員一直在說過去討論了幾十年了這一切就不用再討論了就完全推翻了藉其不連續的國會運作原理秘書長您一直點頭如倒算您接受我的看法下一頁我要很嚴正的說"},{"start":453.53,"end":480.547,"text":"很多國民黨民眾黨的委員一直拿民進黨2012或2016的版本來檢視今天2024民進黨的版本難道2024的此時此刻任何一個人生活在這一個時空2024的人一定要對於過去的主張照單全收嗎?如果是這樣的話社會不需要進步修法就是木乃伊就好了修法不是修文化資產欸復旧如舊欸"},{"start":483.903,"end":500.58,"text":"為什麼2016民進黨的國會改革版本沒有強行通過民進黨是國會多數正因為社會沒有共識民進黨願意花時間在跟社會對話所以在民進黨即使是國會多數的時候2016民進黨的黨版國會改革沒有強度關山我要把這樣一個歷史的經驗分享給國民黨的委員"},{"start":508.206,"end":535.561,"text":"第二個問題2016跟2024今天的國會改革版本不同不行嗎我要再次說我這一次是民進黨的國會改革小組的召集人當我們在審議在討論法案的時候我們很真切的回到過去的版本確實有違憲之餘確實沒有社會足夠的支持所以這一次我們把版本重新檢視"},{"start":537.242,"end":556.195,"text":"沒有全盤照收因為社會在與時俱進我們的法案當然要與時俱進這也是借其不連續很重要的一個精神所以秘書長我在這裡要橫平的說如果承認過去的主張今天此時此刻的時空背景改變了"},{"start":557.645,"end":579.677,"text":"我們沒有勇敢去修正的話我認為才愧對良心我作為2024民進黨黨版的國會改革法案的召集人我要說也許五年後十年後那個時候2035年再回來開2024年的民進黨的國會改革版本都還有很大改善的空間因為時代會改變嘛"},{"start":580.612,"end":595.224,"text":"所以我在這裡要告訴所有的國民黨民眾黨的委員不要給人家扣帽子當年民進黨這樣講今年你就一定要照單全收那就是一個不進步那就是一個法案的木乃伊而已下一頁"},{"start":596.434,"end":614.194,"text":"所以如果同一標準過去的主張不能改國民黨更是自打嘴巴啊針對總統到立法院急問急答這件事情2015的馬英九辦公室總統辦公室說總統到國會被巡視違反憲法我們的王金平院長2015年說"},{"start":615.936,"end":633.3,"text":"只要總統來國會接受備詢就是違憲所以主張不是不能改啊不能去脈絡化啊如果國民黨說民進黨過去的版本就一定要汗手到底那國民黨看看當年你們自己說總統來國會備詢急問急答是違憲的你們的馬英九前總統這麼說你們的王金平前院長這麼說下一頁"},{"start":641.562,"end":652.679,"text":"更何況國民黨的智庫針對總統到國會能不能夠急問急答而且常態化的備詢都說這是違憲這是國際的笑話好下一頁"},{"start":657.466,"end":679.144,"text":"我最後一點點時間謝謝主席多給我一分鐘國會改革不是國會擴權權責相符才是真改革我們的法案今天會送出我也請立法院作為幕僚機關好好的來研議研究民進黨的版本有不好的地方我們接受可以在審查的過程再做討論因為這就是國會存在的意義嘛"},{"start":683.067,"end":699.194,"text":"透過討論透過對於社會的對話透過專業的參與透過不同政黨的委員集思廣益我們才能讓國會真正的改革前進啊所以我跟您預告我們的版本裡頭有非常多是國會的自我要求"},{"start":700.134,"end":713.429,"text":"我們唯有提升自我的問政量能我們唯有協助立法院給予更多的資源幫助我們的法治局跟預算中心有更鬆綁的人士可以去聘任外界更專業的人員進來我們的問政量能才能提升"},{"start":718.755,"end":731.513,"text":"國會需要跟上國際我們需要新的資通安全處國會要有資安長才能夠讓國會的所有資訊安全的防火牆建立得更完善我相信秘書長都會支持"},{"start":733.576,"end":752.111,"text":"打造一個權責相符的專業國會幫國會議員的問政的必要的幕僚功能提升這是幫立法院一把幫國家一把您都支持吧謝謝我會把你們版本交給法治局一併去研議"},{"start":753.038,"end":776.217,"text":"所以法治局跟預算中心正是我們需要大大提升他們的相關量能跟給予資源所以我最後的結論就是任何的法案在慎重的討論過程當中我們就是對話而不是一再的傾斜於擴權的改革我想社會不會支持如果國會不自我要求一味的自我擴權"},{"start":777.518,"end":777.699,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"}]}},{"id":"150771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0a31faedd03c089f582ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6caaa58e7967e20ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:40:01 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Sienna新車在臺灣買不買得到？我可以直接跟您說買不到，因為2020年11月26日車輛安全中心VSCC發文給中華民國車輛進口商協會表示不得以少量車輛進行導入，這是中華民國的相關法規。美國貿易代表戴琪在3月29日也公布了2024各國貿易障礙報告（NTE）點名臺灣對美規車型的技術障礙，限制美國車進入臺灣市場，進行總量管制。這和萊豬的狀況是類似的，請問部長，交通部會對此做退讓嗎？"],["王部長國材：先請林司長回答一下。"],["林司長福山：這部分向委員報告，如果要追源頭的話，最主要是車輛安全法規的調和，目前國際車輛安全法規的調和在APEC會議裡大家有共識，就是調和聯合國UN/ECE的法規，因為美國的聯邦法規另外有一個系統，所以目前相關符合美國聯邦法規，但不符合聯合國法規……"],["游委員顥：我們是UN/ECE的法規檢測，臺灣採取的部分，未來會頂得住壓力嗎？"],["林司長福山：這從95年實施調和聯合國法規到現在都是這樣的規定。"],["游委員顥：所以還沒有談，但我想不管是open的或close的部分都要跟全國民眾報告，因為我們還是要以民為先，不能把大家關心的事情擺在一邊。","接著再就教部長，我們剛才講到美國，再來講中國大陸，今天大家質詢的熱點在於觀光的部分，從1,200萬人次下修到1,000萬人次，我相信各個委員辦公室都接到許多，包括旅遊業者、飯店業者、民宿業者各式各樣的陳情，包括住宿業者，就連今天下午本席的辦公室也會有各地的相關同業公會來陳情這個部分。以目前來講，我先請教一下部長是否記得，賴清德選總統時提到觀光產業是無煙囪工業，可以創造許多就業機會，那時喊出了1,200萬人次來臺灣，希望能夠走進世界，讓世界擁抱臺灣。可是回頭來講，去年喊600萬，到今年原本喊的1,200萬在選舉前喊一喊，結果現在下修。請教部長，今年真的能夠達到1,000萬嗎？"],["王部長國材：對，現在第一季大概快200萬，從一月開始到三月是逐月增加，所以我們看好慢慢的隨著包括航線，包括全世界觀光的復甦會越來越增加。觀光署署長有跟我說明過，他們同仁整體的考量，除了中國大陸以外的行銷算起來大概是1,000萬左右，如果要達到1,200萬，就是當時的陸客200萬到250萬要放進去。因為到目前為止還看不到大陸那邊會把自由行或團客放進來的跡象，所以初步大概我有同意他們這樣的下修。"],["游委員顥：6月1日陸團團客已經不能再去大陸，現在兩岸的關係明顯的可以看出是冰凍起來，這樣如何會有觀光客？目前來講，陸客來台的部分等於是冰凍起來，這個決定是您的決定還是陸委員會的決定？"],["王部長國材：兩岸都是跨部會討論的結果，不是交通部一個部會決定的，但我們的討論過程中，兩岸平等互惠的往來是很重要的，事實上如果他們願意開放，我們也會開放，目前是這樣。","剛剛談到雖然我們現在下修為1,000萬，但不代表我們會限制在1,000萬，我們會繼續努力進行。"],["游委員顥：其實兩岸一定是平等互惠，我坦白講，陸委會的責任必須要由交通部來揹，包括觀光署及全國的觀光產業受到觀光的衝擊，去年是600萬，今年雖說景氣復甦，其實目前各國的景氣並不是那麼好的狀況，所以本席還是建議在達不到1,000萬的水準和目標時，還是要務實的來看待。請問部長，在下修的情況下，對於相關的旅遊業、民宿業者有沒有任何一個協助的輔導方案？"],["周署長永暉：這本來就是一個很務實的檢討，主要是陸客不來，中國那邊不釋出善意，我們這一部分是以來台計算的。"],["游委員顥：我想這都是互相的，說我們這邊不要過去，再說他們不來，其實都是互相的。我相信現在的兩岸關係，以馬英九執政時期來講，現在其實都是越推向兵凶戰危，所以我還是建議我們務實看待，在目前遭受到衝擊時要如何對國內的相關業者做補貼。"],["王部長國材：我向委員報告，我們希望平等互惠也是一個原因，如果我們單向把團客送到大陸，他們沒有來，這樣會影響國內，比如南投的旅宿業、旅館業，所以平等互惠的精神也是照顧國內相關的旅宿和餐飲，這也是我們為什麼在今年初會有這樣一個決定的原因。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，這個狀況大家都知道。","我接著就教今天包括極端氣候、災防預警的議題。我想請教今天環境部氣候署有派人過來嗎？那我直接請教部長。在極端氣候災防預警的議題上面，環境部氣候變遷署跟這個議題到底有沒有相關，還是跟這個議題並不相關？"],["王部長國材：應該很相關。"],["游委員顥：今天來講，同樣是沒有邀他們過來，交通委員會每次討論極端氣候或氣候變遷的時候，環境部的氣候變遷署通常都是置身事外。我們看到氣候變遷對於地方造成的影響，包括上次的卡努風災，就這個議題來講，行政院如果有心解決氣候變遷的問題，交通部還是要就相關業務做個整合，包括災防報警系統、廣播服務以及訊息中心、科技中心，就他們的業務來講是疊床架屋，但就交通部的汛期業務而言並沒有很暢通的溝通，所以本席還是希望交通部能夠進行主導。"],["王部長國材：他們是在上游、在氣候變遷這一塊，因為今天主要是汛期的準備，就是陸海空的準備，所以我們今天是就交通部的準備做一個報告，但兩個的確是相關的。"],["游委員顥：對，是相關的，但他們沒有來。"],["主席：謝謝。今天的議程是有關汛期的一些整備的問題，所以沒有邀請環境部氣候變遷署，游顥委員的建議以後我們會納入考量有關於氣候的相關議題。","現在請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.496593750000002,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.19659375,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.199718750000002,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.71409375,"end":90.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.009093750000005,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.07596875,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.49784375,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.77596875,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.79284375,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.86346875000001,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.13284375,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.53346875,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.68409375000002,"end":224.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.16034375,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.24409375000002,"end":230.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.57721875000001,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.15534375000004,"end":266.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.45346875,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.43596875000003,"end":271.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.51159375000003,"end":276.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.74721875,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.25346875,"end":281.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.64096875,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.56534375,"end":319.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.66034375000004,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.66409375,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.67159375,"end":333.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.68346875000003,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.94471875000005,"end":346.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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ECE的法規檢測所以台灣採取的部分所以未來會頂得住壓力嗎?"},{"start":131.469,"end":152.507,"text":"跟這個委員報告一下這個從這個就是95年實施這個條和聯合國法規一直到現在都是這樣子的一個這個法規遷移所以說是還沒有答案但是我在想不管是OPEN還是COURSE的部分都要跟全國民眾做報告因為我們還是必須要以民為先那不能大家所關心的事情拖到旁邊"},{"start":153.248,"end":164.559,"text":"那同樣的那接著再就交到部長我們剛才講到美國那再來講中國大陸那目前今天大家的質詢熱點是在於觀光的部分那在下修這個1200萬人到1000萬人其實"},{"start":168.702,"end":184.982,"text":"這個事情我相信各個委員辦公室都接到了許多包括旅遊業者、飯店業者、民宿業者各式各樣的一個陳情包括住宿業者就連今天下午本席的辦公室也會有各地的一個相關同業工會也會來陳情這個部分那"},{"start":185.703,"end":207.888,"text":"以目前來講阿我想先請教一下部長您記得在賴清德就是準總統那時候在提說觀光產業是無煙囪的工業可以創造許多的就業機會那時候喊出了1200萬人能夠來台灣希望能夠走進世界讓世界擁抱台灣可是回頭來講"},{"start":209.068,"end":222.842,"text":"那在去年喊600萬可是到今年原本喊的1200萬在選舉前喊一喊結果現在還下修那我想要就教一下部長那在今年的話真的能夠達到1000萬嗎?"},{"start":226.569,"end":250.32,"text":"現在第一季大概快兩百萬但是它的這個整個一頁開始到上頁就逐頁增加所以我們是看好就是說慢慢隨著包括航線包括全世界公安的復甦會越來越增加那的確在這個公安署署長這邊有跟我說明過他們同仁整體的考量在國內"},{"start":252.461,"end":252.581,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":273.081,"end":290.579,"text":"大陸那邊會把自由醒候團客放進來的跡象所以我們現在初步大概我有同意他們這樣的一個下修在6月1號啊那入團團客已經不能再去大陸那現在兩岸的關係其實看起來是明顯就是冰凍起來"},{"start":291.48,"end":304.704,"text":"那這樣子如何能夠有觀光客那我是想要就教一下部長像目前來講入客來台的這個部分那等於是冰凍起來的這個決定啊是您的決定還是陸委會的決定"},{"start":308.264,"end":322.164,"text":"現在兩岸當然就是說都是跨部會討論的結果真的不是交通部一個部會但是我們的確在討論過程中是兩岸平等互惠的這個往來是重要"},{"start":322.785,"end":342.163,"text":"所以我們一直也期待事實上我們門也開著說如果他願意比如說開放的話我們也會開放目前也是這樣所以我想說剛剛所談到的雖然我們現在下修一千萬但是不代表我們就是努力就是會限制在一千萬我們會繼續來努力來進行"},{"start":344.065,"end":347.469,"text":"路委會的責任必須要由交通部來背以及包括觀光署以及全國的觀光產業來受到觀光的衝擊"},{"start":359.645,"end":385.302,"text":"所以我的建議還是認為說其實目前今年度的話其實去年是六百萬當然我們講說景氣復甦但是其實目前各國的景氣那也都是還是目前沒有那麼好的一個狀況所以本期還是建議在達不到一千萬的這個水準跟那個目標的時候我覺得還是要務實來看待那想請問一下部長目前對於這樣子下修的時候在相關的旅遊業民宿業有沒有任何的一個協助的輔導方案"},{"start":387.021,"end":391.505,"text":"這個本來就是一個很務實的一個檢討那麼主要是路客不來"},{"start":393.371,"end":416.111,"text":"就是中國那邊不四處善意的話所以我們這個部分是以來台來算的我都想這種就是互相的啦因為說我們這邊不要過去那再說他們不來其實這種都互相我相信現在的兩岸關係在馬英九執政時期來講現在其實都是越是推向兵兇戰委啦所以說"},{"start":416.832,"end":444.183,"text":"我還是會建議說我們務實看待以目前遭受到的衝擊的時候那如何來去對於相關國內的業者做補貼事實上我跟委員報告就是說我們希望平等互惠也是一個原因就是說如果我們單向比如說把團客送到大陸去他沒有來那這樣是影響我們國內的比如說南投的理數業、旅館業所以平等互惠它事實上的一個精神是照顧國內的相關的理數跟餐飲"},{"start":445.163,"end":466.984,"text":"所以我想說這部分也是我們為什麼在這個今年初會有這樣一個決定的原因是好沒關係這個狀況大家都知道那我直接接著就叫今天的包括極端氣候災防預警的議題那我想請教一下那今天那個環境部還有氣候署他們有排員過來嗎"},{"start":469.905,"end":492.584,"text":"那所以嘛 上次所提到的 不是氣象署喔是 署長 那個 沒事 那個環境部氣候署 那我就直接就交一下部長在這個極端氣候災防預警的這個議題上面那在環境部氣候變遷署 他們跟這個議題到底有沒有相關 還是其實跟這個議題並不相關 應該很相關 那所以啊"},{"start":493.064,"end":517.218,"text":"那今天來講同樣是沒有在邀他們過來所以在交通委員會每次討論極端氣候或是氣候變遷的時候其實環境部他們的氣候變遷署通常都是置身事外那我們看到了其實在在氣候變遷對於地方造成的影響包括上次的一個風災卡努風災那我們也知道說這些議題來講如果有心行政院要來提高還有這個氣候變遷的這種這種問題的解決"},{"start":520.16,"end":547.748,"text":"那我在想說在交通部其實還是要在相關的業務來去做一個整合包括還有我們的災防告警細胞的廣播服務還有以及我們的所謂的就是訊息中心那其實科技中心他其實業務他來講他跌床駕屋但是卻跟我們交通部的訊息業務來講的話其實並沒有做很暢通的一個溝通所以本期還是希望交通部能夠進行主導謝謝"},{"start":550.508,"end":568.104,"text":"我簡單回答就是說Carmen是在上游在氣候變遷這一塊那因為今天主要是汛期的這個準備啦現在就我們陸海空的準備所以我們現在還是從我們交通部的準備來做一個報告這樣子但是的確兩個是相關的很相關的對阿是相關的所以到時候他們沒有來嘛對阿是OK好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01dbbd70fc8714b7d91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a611db7a385e1e81f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"11:38:27 - 11:47:56","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":569,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:47:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:38:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（11時38分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["陳委員永康：也請中科院院長。"],["主席：請中科院張院長。"],["陳委員永康：軍備局局長。"],["主席：請軍備局局長。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好。今天聽取了國防自主政策推動的具體成效，我個人感覺到這是一個重要的里程碑。過去所有同仁共同努力地付出，有些成果，當然也有很多精進的空間。如果我們以5年兵整往前看的話，後面還有很多專案執行中、仍面臨一些挑戰，我在這邊先提出一個比較重要的建議案。剛才我聽取到，在很多專案管理上，有採購室、有軍備局、有中科院，在簽署合約的過程中也有篩選，區分哪些是備選、合格與不合格的廠商。個人建議，因為有這麼多我們講的國內案，相較於FMS軍售案比較單純，我們跟美國這麼多年的合作經驗非常好，商售案、也就是美國對我們的商售案，有些則會變成我們國產產業底下的供應鏈，也就是說在我們的航空產業、在我們的造船產業裡面包含美國進口的物資，也透過國內技術廠商整合。而這裡面產生了一個問題，就是我們需要一個專業的律師團隊。這並不是指我們現有的人專業素質不夠，而是負荷太大，要從這麼多國防產業案子裡面看每一項合約的細則，以我們現在的幕僚承辦單位來講，在履約督導、專案進行、甚至在合約過程中間，往往會疏忽有些什麼特殊條款、特別條款、但書，這一段就會產生跟廠商之間的問題，包含有沒有訴訟的問題、有沒有仲裁的問題，尤其是面對國外產業時，有很大的複雜度。","我舉個例，航空產業裡面，我國從國外引進了部分料配件或者是組件，當初我們曾經簽定，如果3年內該裝備不能換，可以等值替換，以30萬美金的裝備，我們的目標可能是換10個3萬美元的配件，在合約裡面寫了，我們都覺得可接受。結果到了最後執行的時候，廠商卻說每換一個就抵銷10個percent，所以原本30萬能換3個10萬的，結果每一件都扣10%，也就是都打個9折，把10 percent拿掉，結果買了更多，像這些東西都要由專業律師協助我們看。至於過程中有沒有因為不可抗力因素而無法罰的狀況？我建議採購作業室、軍備局、中科院甚至法律司要有專案團隊，這些人可以聘專業律師，在全案過程中幫你監督。比方講，外國廠商找了它的代理，我們也要對它作核實調查，要有本國律師跟外國律師同時查核它的資格是否不合、信貸合不合、信譽合不合，這叫做DD，就是due diligence，這點必須要做。針對這一項，我在往後的專案執行過程中都會提出要求，這樣可以幫助國防部減省很多履約督導的負責人力，因為可以由專業律師團隊全程參與，一直到結案。中間既保護國防部、納稅人，也是對廠商的相對保證，因為它經過核實調查，它的信譽、口碑是被肯定的，我就這一點提出建議。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：後面就是針對中科院的。中科院過去參與國防科研多年，從理論導入、模擬測試、實境驗證跟性能提升的過程中奠定了很多基礎，在目前科技突飛猛進的挑戰下，中科院參與國家太空衛星計畫也好多年了，為航空太空提供相關服務模組。比如說，在福爾摩沙系列衛星──福爾摩沙五號到八號，中科院提供了衛星的電力控制、電腦、衛星導航，證明了在國防自主方面，中科院具備相關航太研發能力。目前我的建議是把中科院從現行的周邊組織重新定位，賦予權責相符的關鍵位置，這樣中科院可以保持累積尖端的研發能力，與我們的國家太空團隊共同合作，為國防自主奠定好的基礎。","我要提到人才問題。對於我國積極推動太空計畫政策，我建議採行全方位的資源整合運用。目前的太空計畫是以教育經費跟某些學校合作，我的建議則是將全國產、官、學、研，如陽明交大、中央大學、成功大學、乃至國防大學理工學院等設有航太工程學系者結成團隊，因為太空中心合作計畫的對象比較偏狹、比較窄，而我覺得培育人才這個計畫不是機密性的，只有人才不足與沒有人才才可能是機密。","我現在就把幾個論述方法簡單提出來。我們的目標是以國防產業技術自主增強國家戰略的自主性，方法是提升中科院的航太科研能力，以有限資源全方位地配合、分配。至於手段，建議從周邊組織重新定位，直接賦予權責相符的關鍵位置。人才的培育是最關鍵性的，有限的資源配合，促成產、官、學、研，諸如陽明交大、中央大學、成功大學、國防大學理工學院，這個團隊共同努力，才完成一個航太自主的國家戰略目標。","在這裡面看到，這是福衛五號的照片，我們中科院在裡面做的衛星電腦、電力控制單元，我們有跟中央大學合作，甚至衛星導航的系統，我們都參與了。其次，最後一個是，我們這麼多的學研單位共同支持國家的太空計畫，包括中科院大推力的火箭輸送系統，其實不應該排除在外。即便我們的衛星是拿到國外去委託發射，中科院在火箭推力方面還是有它的空間。那麼是不是請這段由中科院院長您回答一下？"],["邱部長國正：好，中科院。"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告一下，當然中科院過去發展的整個衛星的關鍵技術，我們也建了案來執行，都已經執行了一個段落了。因為太空中心的成立，當然當初國安會的考量是為了不要把資源大家分兩邊，所以才由太空中心來做主導。中科院把自己的研發成果，然後跟太空中心來做輔助的功用。","剛才講了福爾摩沙，中科院確實是有參與。除了剛才講的電腦之外，還有Power　Supply，另外還加了陀螺儀，都有幫它來做。委員知道，我想現在我們不再發射衛星了，部分的載具中科院也正在研發當中，這個都沒有間斷，在這邊跟委員做個說明。"],["陳委員永康：部長，這邊您有沒有……"],["邱部長國正：沒有。我們的國防工作，不管是衛星也好，只要中科院有這個能力，而且參與的，這都是促進我們自己基本技能的要件之一嘛！所以我剛才看到有關國防大學理工學院，據我了解，他們有些都參與的，我們也這樣，人才培育從學校教育就開始了，不要等到他就位了以後，那個就慢了，我絕對努力來做這方面工作。"],["陳委員永康：好。那軍備局這邊是不是能夠將來整合一下？就是說我們要有一個，除了專案的管理人才跟我們的合約審查以外，希望有一個律師團隊。這個人才不見得是在我們軍中，因為他可以全程參與，他幫你做核實調查，就是說有關外國廠商、代理商的信譽調查，要做這個。那這個變成納為我們選項、選量、選服務裡面的一個重要參考依據。"],["邱部長國正：我們可以跟那個，不管是法律司，還有原本採購室他們也有這些。就法律方面的問題，我們在那個基礎上面持續來強化剛剛委員所要求的事情，好不好？"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。那就謝謝各位的回復，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.14034375,"end":2.9334687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.06409375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.76784375,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.172843750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.86659375,"end":29.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.562218750000003,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.13971875,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.345968750000004,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.767218750000005,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.01971875,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.360343750000006,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.92909375,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.51909375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":68.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.58971875,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.41971875,"end":84.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.17784375000001,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.16034375000001,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.61471875000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.59659375000001,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.46534375,"end":110.78159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.23721875000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.91971875,"end":119.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.09659375000001,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.64909375,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.58534375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.98159375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.92971875,"end":137.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138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Diligence,這必須要做的。那這項在後面的專案裡面,在執行的過程中間,我們都會提出這個要求。這個可以幫國防部減省很多的履約督導的負責,因為由這個專業的律師團隊全程參與,一直到結案。"},{"start":238.183,"end":238.323,"text":"陳永康"},{"start":256.68,"end":277.697,"text":"過去參與國防科研多年他從理論導入模擬測試實境驗證跟性能提升的過程中間他奠定了很多的基礎在目前科技突飛猛進的挑戰下中科院參與國家太空衛星計劃也好多年了為航空太空習慣相關的服務模組"},{"start":280.18,"end":293.693,"text":"佛爾摩沙系列衛星提供衛星電力控制、電腦、衛星導航, 證明國防自主、中科院具備相關航太研發能力。"},{"start":294.774,"end":317.247,"text":"目前我們的建議是把中科院從現行的周邊組織要重新定位,賦予全責相符的關鍵位置,這樣子中科院可以保持累積尖端的研發能力,與我們的國家太空團隊共同合作,為國防自主奠定一個好的基礎。我要提到人才問題。"},{"start":319.909,"end":343.585,"text":"我們積極推動太空計劃政策建議採行全方位的資源整合運用目前太空計劃是把他的教育經費有跟某些學校合作我們建議是要全國的產官學員如陽明交大、中央大學、成功大學乃至於國防大學理工學院設有航空工程系的"},{"start":344.926,"end":345.106,"text":"併請國防部長"},{"start":361.258,"end":375.752,"text":"我現在就把幾個論述的方法簡單的提出來我們的目標是以國防產業的技術自主增強國家戰略的自主性我們的方法提升中科院、航帶科研的能力"},{"start":377.076,"end":402.278,"text":"以有限資源全方位配合分配我們的手段建議從周邊組織重新定位直接賦予權責相符的關鍵位置人才的培育是最關鍵性的有限的資源配合促成產官學研注入陽明交大、中央大學、成功大學、國防大學、理工學院這個團隊共同努力才完成一個航太自主的國家戰略目標"},{"start":403.86,"end":425.419,"text":"在這個裡面看到這是福衛五號的照片我們中科院在裡面做的衛星電腦電力控制單元我們有跟這個中央大學合作甚至衛星導航的系統我們都參與了那其次最後一個就是說我們這麼多的學研單位共同支持國家的太空計畫包括中科院的"},{"start":425.759,"end":425.899,"text":"中科院議員"},{"start":442.396,"end":462.43,"text":"跟委員報告一下當然中科院過去研究這個發展的這個整個衛星的關鍵技術我們也建了案來執行都已經執行了一個段落了因為太空中心的成立當然當初國安會的考量是為了不要說支援大家分兩邊所以才由太空中心來做主導"},{"start":463.471,"end":489.972,"text":"中科院把自己的研發成果然後跟太空中心來做一個輔助的功用剛才還講了這個福爾摩沙但中科院確實是有參與除了剛才講的電腦之外還有Power Supply另外還加了陀螺儀都幫他來做那委員知道我想現在我們不再發射衛星的那部分的載具中科也正在研發當中這個都沒有間斷在這邊跟委員做個說明"},{"start":495.635,"end":521.609,"text":"國防工作,不管衛星也好,只要中國委員有這個能力,而且參與的,這都是促進我們自己基本技能的要件之一。所以我剛看到有關於國防大學、理工學院,據我了解他們有些都參與的。我們也像人才培育,從學校教育就開始,不要等到他就位了以後,那個就慢了。我絕對努力來做這方面工作。"},{"start":522.828,"end":543.34,"text":"軍備局是不是能夠將來整合一下就是說我們要有一個除了專案的管理人才跟我們的這個合約審查希望有一個律師團隊這個人才不見得是在我們軍中因為他可以全程參與他幫你做核實調查就是說有關外國廠商他代理商他的信譽調查要做這個那這個變成納為我們選項選量選服務裡面的一個重要參考依據"},{"start":549.512,"end":566.229,"text":"我們可以跟那個不管是法律是還有原本採購啊採購是他們也有這些好像就法律方面的問題的我們在那個基礎上面持續的強化剛委員所要求的事情好不好好謝謝那就謝謝各位的回覆好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0ab85665563f34e5a0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a654c550af5f56c1715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:41:52 - 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因為那個在部會分工裡面交通部的鐵路法是有明定的就是交通事業基本上是他們來做主政然後他們提出相關的這些可行跟綜合規劃送到行政院行政院會交給國發會來共同審議分工是這個樣子來做分工"},{"start":107.386,"end":136.689,"text":"事實上我們也希望就是說整個政府的體制我們還是希望它能夠有依循一定的一個體制跟程序這樣子才不會讓整個優單位都混亂掉了是那再來就是說就這個環島高速鐵路這個議題來談我們回想一下記得在當年這個高鐵剛剛通車的時候我記得那時候很多難贏的政治人物都在批評說高鐵是廢鐵不安全"},{"start":137.629,"end":140.632,"text":"高鐵是快速、便利又安全的交通工具,所以今天國民黨提出《環島高速鐵路條例》,他們也承認高鐵不僅不是廢鐵,"},{"start":158.71,"end":158.87,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":179.777,"end":204.78,"text":"這個第5條裡面他說整個全部計畫的建設完成以不遇時扭為限其實我覺得這樣子的一個內容我覺得也是有點在就是違反這樣子的建設的一個流程也有點強人所難因為以我們看到整個西部鐵路高鐵的一個建設的一個騎乘這個都是有經驗可循的"},{"start":205.66,"end":226.47,"text":"過去從可行性研究評估到核定計畫到動工一直到開始營運有20年的一個時間將近20年的一個時間所以對整個重大建設的一個推動當然我們都是希望有一個願景可是我們也希望就是說能夠務實的來一個推動所以對整個環島高鐵的一個推動"},{"start":233.073,"end":250.305,"text":"國發會的立場是不是可以再請主委再說一下?如果按照程序來的話,如果有需要的部分還是要請交通部啟動這個可行性的研究分析。這個研究分析當然他就會討論這個路廊到底要怎麼走。"},{"start":251.225,"end":278.764,"text":"站要設在哪裡然後要經過哪些地方可能會遭遇到什麼樣的困難技術上部分然後財務怎麼樣做一些規劃這個部分我們都需要去認真的看待那越認真去看待來講的話真正後面施工才會順利如果這些東西都沒有先去了解跟討論的話那馬上就要決定跳過這個程序的話可能會遇到想不到的一些阻礙更多"},{"start":279.685,"end":302.411,"text":"所以我們還是認為就是說過去的經驗已經在那邊而且即便是西部高鐵或是其他的重大建設按照這樣的程序也都所有挑戰也一一突破了雖然時間拉長但是我們還是把它完成現在營運也非常非常順利所以我們還是希望說這套機制已經存在而且是可以信任的機制我們希望循這個機制來辦理"},{"start":306.913,"end":331.174,"text":"我剛有提到當年在高鐵剛剛通車的時候國民黨批評說高鐵是廢鐵那這樣回想起來我們也可以看得出來他們就是基於一種意識形態的立場來批評這個部分我們從最近這兩年我們還可以看到一個例子就是高鐵延伸到屏東的這樣子的一個可行性的計畫的一個合併"},{"start":332.975,"end":352.143,"text":"國民黨也是跳出來批評說這個延伸到屏東是畫大餅那今天他們提出來更大的一個交通建設的一個餅當然這個都是我們共同要追求的一個願景我們也是支持啦可是我們是希望就是說國民黨不要就是說換了位子就換了腦袋"},{"start":353.263,"end":362.809,"text":"如果對整個國家有利的交通建設,我們希望還是能夠回歸到理性的討論。所以對於整個環島高速鐵路的草案,我們也是希望能夠回歸專業,由交通部來做可行性的啟動評估,然後再做接下來相關的建設跟規劃。"},{"start":378.038,"end":389.174,"text":"所以在這邊當然要再次的重申我們是支持環島高速鐵路的一個願景可是我們反對政治凌駕專業 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0e39d0a57a90e170df7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6374e8c2d51edcf395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:32:41 - 11:43:26","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":645,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:43:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:32:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時32分）好，謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，主委辛苦了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天有三個大的題目要就教主委，第一個問題，內政委員會在3月4號安排金門撞船案的專案報告，當初海委會主委管碧玲女士傳簡訊，希望高金素梅召委可以更改專報名稱，其中簡訊的內容我認為是非常有爭議的，因為他說「原住民在海巡服務占的比例非常高，我會特別要求注意升遷上的拔擢」，高金委員當然覺得好像要用原住民的升遷交換他改變專案報告的名稱，覺得非常糟糕，覺得受到侮辱。請問主委，原住民職員升遷這樣的事情是應該被特別強調的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：當然各部會多多進用原住民，我們樂觀其成。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，但是把這個東西拿出來講是好的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：看是在什麼樣的場合提出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛不是講了？這樣的場合是適合的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我尊重管主委的說法。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要尊重管主委的說法，你確定嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你確定就這樣子回答？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得原住民的升遷可以拿來做利益交換，或者是官員拿來當成對委員示好的工具嗎？你同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有沒有利益交換，這個部分我不瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個事情很清楚，任何看得懂簡訊內容的人就知道有兩個，一個是希望透過這樣達成交換報告名稱的目的；第二個就是跟委員示好，不希望委員太生氣，就是這兩種可能，這樣你還要尊重他的說法嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我剛剛跟委員報告過，我們希望各部會多多進用原住民的人才。"],["牛委員煦庭：但你不對言論做任何評論是嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我再提醒你，羅智強委員在3月6號，在司法及法制委員會質詢行政院人事行政總處，問他人事升遷跟原民身分掛鉤這樣的說法是不是好的說法？人事長蘇俊榮表示他不會這樣說。我再提醒你一件事，夷將主委在2023年5月，面對臺大歧視原住民加分事件跟臺中一中校慶活動的攤位招牌事件……，因為都是對原住民的歧視性言論。在這樣的事件之後，你都曾經表示消弭對原住民族的歧視，要從學校教育跟社會教育做起。主委，我再問你一次，你覺得剛剛那些簡訊用這樣的方式講，對原住民族來說是不是歧視？你覺得這樣的言論是否恰當？請回答。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對於歧視的標準，每個人的觀點都不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我就問你，如果其他部會的官員跟你聊天，說我這個部會有特別注意原住民的升遷，作為原民會的主委，你聽到他這樣講會不會覺得有一點不舒服？你覺得這樣是合適的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我剛剛一再主張，我們希望不管是民間還是各部會都進用原住民的好人才。"],["牛委員煦庭：進不進用跟有沒有這樣的言論是兩碼子事，我們當然都同意要進用，本席更主張這沒有什麼好區分的，有能力的人就是拔擢，這是真正的平等，問題是這樣的言論出來之後，真的沒有不恰當嗎？主委，你覺得沒有不恰當嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，他的談話我不予評論。"],["牛委員煦庭：不予評論是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你曾經講過，要用學校教育跟社會教育的方式消除歧視性的言論，這樣的言論你覺得符不符合社會教育的精神？你覺得這樣講，大家都……你沒有評論，這是一個好的社會教育示範嗎？請回答。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我要講的是，對於管主委跟高金委員實際的對話，我瞭解的非常有限。"],["牛委員煦庭：你瞭解的非常有限？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就很危險，這個是原住民族可能涉及被歧視的問題，我們的召委都覺得非常不舒服，覺得受到侮辱，結果你覺得跟你的業務範圍無關，你的瞭解有限，這樣是一件好事嗎？主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我是指內容。"],["主席：我的確感覺到不太舒服。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我是指內容。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，針對這樣的言論，你有沒有跟管碧玲主委溝通一下，說這樣的言論恐怕不太適合，對原住民的情感可能造成傷害？你有沒有講過類似的話？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個部分是他跟高金委員的對話，他應該跟高金委員妥適的說明才對。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天特別、專門設有一個單位、一個組織處理原住民族的事情，就是希望少數族群在臺灣的政治可以被重視，歧視可以被消弭，結果你作為這個單位的主官，竟然說我們還是不要有太多意見，他自己要為自己的言論負責，這樣真的好嗎？這樣真的適合嗎？主委，你自己好好想清楚。最可怕的歧視就是不自知的歧視，我們希望政府帶頭做社會教育。如果政府機關，尤其是原住民的主管單位都沒有辦法為原住民族據理力爭的時候，請問你有什麼道理跟大家說，你在做社會教育，然後要我們的社會大眾停止歧視原住民？主委……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們跟……"],["牛委員煦庭：我再給你一次機會修正你的說法，你覺得這樣的說法妥不妥當？應不應該被糾正？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對主流社會怎麼樣正確認識原住民，我們這一段時間跟教育部都有很深切的檢討，研議怎麼樣從教育端讓大家更認識原住民，更尊重原住民。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧！你就繼續避重就輕，反正你的一言一行就受社會公評。剛剛召委說你是原住民運動的大前輩，請想想自己的初衷。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦！第二個問題，原文會跟原語會的永久會址現在放在桃園A17領航站，工程進度上有沒有任何問題？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前進度沒有遇到問題，而且本來預定進度是35%，現在已經到40%了。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以進度上沒有問題就對了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正常。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要提醒主委，這幾年做重大公共建設的時候，常常會因為土地等等，導致期程有一些延宕，加上這幾年原物料漲得非常厲害。你確定經費上沒有任何問題嗎？有沒有膨脹？有沒有補不上來的問題需要中央多加挹注？你有沒有掌握這樣的問題跟狀況？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前整個工程進度沒有遇到預算需要增加的情形。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前還沒有是不是？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：一開始發包的時候都有考量到了。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席嚴肅要求你們主動監督進度，跟桃園市政府密切配合。它能夠順利走完，當然我們樂觀其成，但是如果有任何需要的時候，我們希望中央全力支持，因為前面一直用租的方式，好像居無定所一樣，很可惜，好不容易找到一個永久會址，而且本來應該2024年就要開工，還稍微晚了一點點。現在看起來有點超前，我希望把進度追上來，如果經費等什麼的有所不夠，中央要大力挹注，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。","第三個問題也是今天的最後一個問題。我國現在正在推動族語教育，很多地方現在都依靠數位處理，叫做「族語E樂園」，主委，你有沒有看過那個網站？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：那是我們原語會的網站。"],["牛委員煦庭：原語會的網站，對不對？你交給原語會處理，對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個網站裡面有九階教材，每一階裡面各有課程，地方上很多母語推廣者、族語老師現在就用這套課程上課。但根據本席的了解，在實務執行上，很多族語老師是有反應的，就是這套教材有很多地方跟他們實際上在做族語教學時是不太一樣的、用語是不太一樣的。這些教材可能是由學者專家所編纂，但是與使用者實際上進行母語教學之間出現落差，使用者會覺得教材好像不正確，或者不好用嘛！請問你們原民會有沒有針對這樣的問題加以彙整？蒐集到多少紀錄？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個部分，原語會針對族語E樂園的使用，根據各個族群、各個老師提出的意見，都會滾動修正。包括他們對用語若有不同建議，可行的話，我們都會作調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在的回答是滾動式修正，但是主委，我要提醒你，族語老師遇到教材問題的時候，大概就是兩種處理方式。我問他們「老師，你的上課內容跟教材好像不一樣，那你要怎麼處理？」那位老師講：「我們唯一能做的只有兩件事。第一就是打官方網站上的電話、直接打到原住民語言研究發展基金會，或者是北市大的族語數位中心」─這是承辦單位嘛！也就是向外包單位反映，這是一種。另一個做法當然就是直接找地方縣市政府的教育局協助反映。可是縣市政府教育局本席也問過，他們講這件事一到中央，中央就說這個跟綱要有關、是教育部的事情，原委會搞不太清楚，由於權責在中央，地方的教育局也沒辦法針對這件事情提供具體的協助。那我現在就請問，過去這段時間，比如說過去一年，或者從族語E樂園上路開始，原民會總共收到多少陳情？針對教材跟實務使用上有落差，收到多少陳情？大家的問題是什麼？你們做了那些修正？我知道這是很細節的東西，你現在手上沒有帶資料，但你要把這項資料調出來，好不好？包括收到多少陳情、改變的進度為何。","本席在這邊也提出要求，就是對於這項教材也要有通盤檢討的機制嘛！如果很多族語老師在教材上路後零星地反映，其實最後很有可能是不了了之。因為就本席的了解，地方上說他們一講上去，上面就講「好，會調整」，但最後也都沒有調整啊！他們上族語課，是每個禮拜、不同學校都在上課啊！等你們從上面這樣慢慢調整下來，搞不好一個學期都過了，所以我覺得這東西要快速、精準，而且定期地通盤檢討，不要讓族語E樂園這項好的政策做下來卻不實用，讓政策分數扣分啊！本席要求你們在兩個禮拜回復，應該夠吧？兩個禮拜針對族語E樂園的檢討，包含你們收到多少訊息、有沒有即時處理，做一簡單書面報告，讓我們內政委員會、也讓所有原住民立法委員都知道這件事情的執行狀況，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員這麼關心族語推動，這項資料我們會在期限內提供給委員參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，辛苦了！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","馬耀．谷木董事長，這的確是一個問題啊！希望你們能夠了解，然後提出具體的解決方法。"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請丁學忠委員。丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.324718750000002,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.351593750000003,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.72096875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.33159375000001,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.79909375000001,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.90034375,"end":80.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.06034375,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.89971875,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":91.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.45971875000001,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.84346875,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.56471875000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.61534375000001,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.61409375000001,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.58409375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.60721875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.33596875,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.70721875000001,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.49159375000002,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.99596875,"end":143.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.67096875000001,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.35409375,"end":147.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.05784375000002,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.18846875,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.40784375,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.44159375,"end":180.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.66034375,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.02721875,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.58284375000002,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.74721875,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.78909375,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.45096875000002,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.20971875,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.72409375,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.95159375,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.72284375,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.70971875,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.35909375000003,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.29971875,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.31659375,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":235.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.26409375000003,"end":240.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.09846875000002,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.97596875000002,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":247.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.00909375,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.73034375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.34159375000002,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.54409375000003,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.35596875000005,"end":271.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.05596875000003,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.10659375,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.17409375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.19096875,"end":272.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.25846875,"end":272.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.44409375000004,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.49471875,"end":272.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.54534375000003,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.61284375,"end":272.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.83221875000004,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.11909375,"end":273.13596875},{"speak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但是你不對言論做任何評論是吧 是好 我再提醒你這個羅志強委員在3月6號在司法法治委員會的質詢的時候他質詢行政院的人事行政總處就講說這個人事身兼跟原民身份掛鉤的這樣說法是不是好的說法人事長蘇俊榮表示說 我不會這樣說"},{"start":146.408,"end":168.841,"text":"我再提醒你一個事這個我們的主委就是你啦這個宜將先生在當初這個2023年5月啊臺大歧視原住民的加分事件跟臺中一中校慶活動的攤位招牌事件因為都是對原住民有歧視性的言論這樣的事件之後你都曾經表示啊要消滅對原住民族的歧視要從學校教育跟社會教育做起"},{"start":169.773,"end":176.197,"text":"主委我再問你一次你覺得剛剛那些簡訊用這樣的方式來講對原住民族來說是不是歧視你覺得這樣言論是否恰當請回答這個歧視的標準每個人的觀點不一樣那我就問你如果其他部會的官員會當然跟你聊天說我這個部會有特別注意原住民的聲簽你作為原民會的主委你會不會聽到這樣會不會覺得有一點點不舒服你覺得這樣是合適的嗎"},{"start":197.83,"end":215.631,"text":"所以跟委員報告我剛剛一再主張說我們希望不管是民間跟各部會都禁用原住民的好人才禁不禁用跟有沒有這樣言論是兩碼子事我們當然都同意要禁用本席更主張這沒有什麼好區分的有能力的人就是把佐這是真正的平等"},{"start":216.789,"end":240.208,"text":"可是問題是這樣子的言論出來的時候真的沒有不恰當嗎?主委你覺得沒有不恰當嗎?他的談話我不予評論不予評論是不是?你曾經講過要用學校教育跟社會教育的方式來消除這個歧視性的言論這樣子的言論你覺得符不符合社會教育的精神?你覺得這樣講你沒有評論這是一個好的社會教育的示範嗎?"},{"start":243.243,"end":244.586,"text":"我要講的是說我真的對於"},{"start":248.069,"end":272.951,"text":"管主委跟我們高金委員的實際對話我瞭解的是非常有限的你瞭解的非常有限對對對那那就很危險啦這個是一個原住民族可能涉及歧視的問題啊我們的召委都覺得非常的不舒服覺得受到侮辱了結果你覺得跟你的業務範圍無關你瞭解有限這樣是一件好事嗎主委我的確是感覺到不太舒服我是指內容啦"},{"start":274.502,"end":292.26,"text":"主委你真的這樣言論你有沒有跟管碧玲主委做一下溝通啊說這樣言論恐怕不太適合對原住民的情感可能造成傷害你有沒有講過類似的話因為這個部分是他跟高金委員的對話應該他要跟高金委員做妥適的說明才對"},{"start":293.786,"end":315.532,"text":"我們今天特別專門有一個單位有一個組織去處理原住民族的事情就是希望這樣子少數族群在台灣的政治是可以被重視的歧視是可以被消弭的結果你作為這個單位的主觀你竟然說我們還是不要太多意見他自己要對自己言論負責這樣真的好嗎這樣真的適合嗎主委你自己好好想清楚"},{"start":316.929,"end":333.104,"text":"最可怕的歧視就是不自知的歧視希望政府要帶頭做社會教育你如果政府機關尤其是原住民的主管單位都沒有辦法為原住民族距離力爭的時候請問你有什麼道理跟大家講說你在做社會教育然後你要我們的社會大眾停止歧視原住民主委"},{"start":335.731,"end":357.328,"text":"我再給你一次機會修正你的說法你覺得這樣的說法妥不妥當應不應該被糾正我們對於原住民主流社會怎麼樣正確認識原住民的部分我們這一段時間跟教育部都有很深切的檢討怎麼樣從教育端裡面讓大家更認識原住民更尊重原住民"},{"start":358.015,"end":385.22,"text":"好吧你就繼續避重就輕啦反正你的一言一行就受社會公平啦這剛剛我們趙偉講說你是原住民運動的大前輩想想自己的初衷第二個問題這個原文會跟原語會的永久會址現在放在桃園領航站A17站現在工程的進度上有沒有任何的問題目前進度沒有遇到問題而且有本來議定進度是35%現在已經到40%了"},{"start":388.089,"end":407.851,"text":"所以進度上沒有問題就對了正常我要提醒主委因為這幾年啊前面常常會做重大公共建設的時候常常會因為土地等等導致其實有些延宕加上這幾年原物料漲得非常厲害確定經費上是沒有任何的問題嗎有沒有膨脹有沒有補不上來問題需要中央多加挹注的你有沒有掌握這樣的問題跟狀況目前的整個"},{"start":408.912,"end":426.459,"text":"工程的進度沒有遇到預算有需要增加的部分目前還沒有是不是大報的時候都有考量到本席嚴肅要求你們要主動監督進度跟桃園市政府做密切的配合他能夠順利把它走完當然我們樂觀其成但是如果有任何需要的時候我們需要中央的全力來支持我們不要讓這個"},{"start":427.219,"end":452.073,"text":"好不容易因為前面一直用租的方式嘛好像就居無定所一樣很可惜好不容易找到永久會址啊本來應該2024年就要開工嘛稍微晚了一點點但你現在看起來有點超前我們希望把進度追上來如果經費跟什麼也不夠中央要大力依住可以嗎?可以好 第三個問題喔也是今天的最後一個問題喔這我們現在在推動族語的教育啊很多地方的時候要依靠現在用數位的方式處理叫族語醫樂園嘛"},{"start":453.334,"end":458.157,"text":"主委你有沒有看過那個網站這個是我們原語會的網站原語會的網站對不對你交給這個原語會來處理對不對你這網站裡面當然就是所謂的九階教材然後每一階裡面大概有課程"},{"start":465.1,"end":491.426,"text":"那地方很多我們現在做這個母語推廣很多族語的老師就用這個課程去上課但本期的了解啊是我們在實務執行的很多的族語老師是有反應的也就是說這教材很多地方跟他們實際上在做族語教學的時候是不太一樣的啊用語是不太一樣的這些教材可能是由學者專家所編撰但是實際上在使用者那個母語教學的時候他中間出現了落差他就覺得好像教材不正確或者是他不好用啊"},{"start":492.246,"end":512.945,"text":"請問你們委員會有沒有針對這樣子的一些問題有沒有做彙整?收集到多少紀錄?這個部分我們的研議會針對足以一錐眼的使用各個族群各個老師提出的一些我們都會滾動修正包括他們對於用語有不同的建議可行的話我們都會做調整對你現在回答的是"},{"start":514.51,"end":542.595,"text":"滾動式修正對不對但是主委我要提醒你啊主語老師遇到這個教材的這個問題的時候他大概就兩種方式因為我問嘛我說老師你上課跟教材好像不一樣那你要怎麼處理那老師講說我們唯一能做只有兩件事第一個就是打官方網站上面的電話直接打到原住民的語言研究發展基金會或者是北市大的這個主語數位中心啊就是承辦單位嘛外包的單位去做反應這一個另外一個他們直接當然就是找地方的"},{"start":543.315,"end":560.466,"text":"縣市政府的教育局來協助反映可是縣市政府的教育局我本席也去問過他講當然這個東西一到中央的時候中央會講這個跟鋼藥有關教育部的事情又搞不太清楚他又一全責在中央地方的教育局也沒有辦法針對這件事情提供具體的協助那我現在就請問這個過去這一段時間比如過去一年"},{"start":563.268,"end":586.855,"text":"或者是從這個族語醫樂園上路開始我們總共收到了多少陳情等於教材跟實務上使用有落差收到多少陳情大概問題是什麼你們做了哪些修正這個我知道因為這是很細節的東西你現在手上沒有帶資料但是你要把這資料調出來好不好收到多少陳情改變了進度為何那本期還在這邊要求就是說這個教材你也要有通盤檢討的機制"},{"start":588.135,"end":601.343,"text":"如果說很多族語老師在上路之後他其實靈性的反應很有可能最後是不了了之啊因為就本席的了解地方的講說我講上去他們就講說好我會調整但最後也都沒有調整啊可是他們上族語課每個禮拜每個禮拜到不同的學校都在上課啊"},{"start":602.082,"end":629.795,"text":"所以等你這上面這樣子慢慢慢慢調整下來搞不好一個學期都過了所以我是覺得這東西要有一個快速而且精準而且定期的通盤檢討不要讓這個族語醫樂園好的政策下來不實用然後讓政策打分數扣分啦所以本期要求你就在兩個禮拜應該夠吧兩個禮拜把這個族語醫樂園的這個檢討你收到了多少訊息有沒有及時處理做一個簡單的書面報告讓我們內政委員會讓所有的原住民的立法委員都知道這件事情執行狀況可以嗎"},{"start":631.096,"end":636.522,"text":"謝謝委員這麼關心我們的足以推動,這個資料我們會在期限內提供給委員做參考。好,辛苦了,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01bafd34607ab251af7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a66c5db8da8e21e8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:20:59 - 11:32:19","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":680,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:32:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:20:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時21分）主席好。本席請夷將主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。首先本席想說明，今天本席有5個臨時提案，希望主委這裡能夠全力來為我們原住民朋友努力。首先第一個，我們希望請原民會能夠全面盤點、檢討全臺各部落殯葬需求和公墓用地，協調政府相關單位爭取撥用公有地為公墓用地，修正相關法規，以應各部落殯葬需求。本席說明一下我們今天這5個提案，因為我們新竹縣也有兩個原住民的鄉鎮，我們都是依據原住民朋友、我們的鄉親提出來的需求，我特別在這裡提出，也非常感謝高金召委今天能夠排這樣一個會議。","第二個就是我們希望能夠澈底盤點全臺無法供應自來水的部落、用戶數及其問題所在，我們希望能夠限期提出解決方案。當然這個剛剛有提到是要會同經濟部，本席是認同的，相關文字作個修改，合議共同管理機制、修建簡易自來水設施及農業用水、申請登記水權用地等等，我們希望原住民族自來水的部分也能夠逐步加強。","再來就是有關原住民部落農業改革，實踐「與山為伍，以山為師」敬山精神，我們緊扣「三生」資源永續平衡發展，以達人與自然環境和諧共存為目標；這第三個。","第四個，我們也希望能夠盤點各部落的醫療資源，還有無障礙通行、治安等需求，落實部落整體的發展，以及基本生活的權益；這第四個。","第五個就是希望能夠落實食農教育和農事體驗的結合，融入鄉內國中小學校訂課程，增進部落孩子們跨領域能力，培養農事耕作及管理能力，並且對我們偏鄉部落央廚衛生安全與品質，特別予以注意。","請問主委可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：徐委員，很謝謝你，雖然不是原住民選出來的委員，因為你的服務地區剛好有兩個原鄉，提出這麼寶貴的提案，我想只要可行的，我們都會全力來落實委員的提案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，太好了！","接著本席想要請教主委，有關原住民族學校法的立法，目前好像都沒有確立主管機關，如果沒有主管機關，這個原住民族學校法就沒有一個主管機關來訂定法律，然後也沒有法源的依據。現在我們有實施原住民學校實驗教育，已經實施8年了，還有4年，因為你們要12年的實驗教育嘛，就您所知，目前實驗學校推動的情況如何？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前大概最久的已經推到8年沒有錯，但是有的是才推動兩年、三年，我們有一些相關的成果，如果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，您覺得成效如何？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：當然成效是一定有的，因為它對原住民的文化傳承，包括語言的傳承都有很大的幫助，包括原住民的傳統知識的傳承都有很大的幫助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們也看到原住民朋友，我們希望在實驗學校能夠幫助原住民朋友適性發展，因為我們看到原住民朋友在唱歌、舞蹈，甚至體育方面都有非常非常過人傑出的表現，代表我們臺灣參加世界級的比賽，可以說是真的臺灣之光。所以我們希望在原住民實驗學校的部分，我們能夠加強適性的發展，同時提供給他們足夠的資源，這個部分，主委您是不是有在落實？或是你在這一方面有沒有什麼比較自豪的作法可以提出來？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，我們在原住民的教育裡面，我們跟教育部有很好的分工，在一般教育的部分，就是國民教育的部分是教育部來主政；民族教育的部分就是由原民會協同教育部在學校端落實。這個部分不管是在體育、在樂舞，或是在文化各個方面的人才培育，我們都會跟教育部一起共同合作、達成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，除了適性發展之外，本席看到您今天的報告裡面有寫到，在臺中的實驗學校，他們的學習成果，包含一些數理方面的成果，我看到你們寫他們的平均還高於臺中市，甚至全國的標準，這點本席看了覺得你們的成果非常的好，這個部分你是不是也可以跟大家來說明一下？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確，剛開始對實驗學校，家長本來還有很多疑慮，但是剛剛委員提到，臺中博屋瑪國小那個部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：比令‧亞布校長推廣了一段時間以後，他們做統計，原來不會因為實驗學校讓他們的數學、讓他們的英文、讓他們的國語更不好，沒有！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不要偏廢。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：反而在這方面有更好的發展，就是兼顧了文化傳承跟一般的教育，都有兼顧到，這個部分是很好的一個實驗。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，本席也看到你們列出來的四十所實驗學校，在新竹縣有五所。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這五所本席有稍微去瞭解一下，是不是在新竹縣的部分可以加強這一塊？因為本席聽到的是，在新竹縣適性發展的部分，可能歌唱、舞蹈的比例非常高，但是他們在一些基本學科的部分是不是也不要偏廢？這一塊本席特別提出來，希望主委你們這裡在實施的時候也能夠特別注意。","再來本席也想提一下都市原住民的議題，到去年底的人口統計，現在都市原住民的人數已經達到所有原住民人口應該有一半以上了，所以都市原住民的權益，我們也希望主委這裡能夠來為我們都市原住民加強。首先第一個是保障他的居住權的部分，像現在很多縣市都有在辦理社會住宅，我不知道原民會這裡為我們都市原住民爭取，以及保障居住權的部分，您覺得績效如何？還有你們有什麼具體的作法？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，我們社會住宅跟內政部的整個分工裡面，都有充分的合作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，你跟內政部分工的部分真的就不用講，針對這一塊，你的績效怎麼樣？你講。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前進住到社會住宅的家戶有九千多戶，在都市裡面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以都陸續有在協助就對了？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有，都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含利息的補貼、租金補貼這一塊，你們都有在協助我們原住民朋友？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。我們分工就是利息補貼是內政部，但是建購的，就是房子要修繕或者是要買房子的這個部分的補助，是原民會來做補助，我們都有這樣的一個分工。"],["徐委員欣瑩：除了居住權以外，對我們都市原住民很重要的，剛剛很多委員都提到，就是他們的就業、職能發展以及生涯規劃。針對他們的工作，在都市原住民這個部分，是不是能夠做更多相關的輔導？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員也特別拜託，我們一直有工作權保障法，就是原住民的部分，已經很多年沒有修了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請你簡答好不好？因為我的時間已經快沒了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，工作權保障法修了以後解決很多原住民就業的問題，這就是我們的解決方案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，就是希望大家來支持嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席問最後一個問題──有關原住民族自治的模式，主委，您看究竟要不要推動立法？你的態度是要推還是不推？就這樣簡單回答就好，我剩下30秒。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我是主張採取分流立法來推比較可能有進度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以您覺得可以持續推動，但是用分流立法的方式。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，而且按照各個族群的需求分流立法更可行，因為每一個族群的需求不太一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是目前好像只限於太魯閣、魯凱、雅美、卑南等族的討論，其他族呢？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們都樂意提供相關的補助，讓其他族也一起建構他們實際的需要，比如說，像委員的那個地方……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你覺得分流立法什麼時候才能完成？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：如果該族群已經達成共識，我們就可以把相關的法案提出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：像這個部分有跟行政院以及各部會溝通它的可能性、可行性還有期程嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們就是希望朝分流立法，才會有這樣的補助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有規劃期程？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：由下而上達到自治的目標才可行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣看起來目前好像遙遙無期。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不會遙遙無期。"],["徐委員欣瑩：期程你講一下，因為我一直問期程。你規劃得出來嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：各個族群提出版本之後，我們就可以提出。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這樣還是遙遙無期。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不會遙遙無期。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，請你努力。謝謝。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","夷將主委剛剛的回應讓我們有點失望，您是原運的大前輩，自治法是您當時領頭，希望我們要往前衝的，結果你現在告訴我們要分流立法，這讓我們有點失望。","繼續請牛煦庭委員質詢。","順便說明一下，我們在黃捷委員質詢結束後處理臨時提案。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":3.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.563468750000002,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.34846875,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.17659375000002,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.60784375,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.89784375000002,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.91471875000002,"end":181.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.06159375000001,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.42409375000003,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.72784375,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.68096875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":198.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.20659375000002,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.83346875,"end":240.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.01846875,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.03534375,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.04221875000002,"end":260.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.88159375,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.07034375,"end":265.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.34846875,"end":263.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.84596875,"end":268.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.76534375,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.16721875,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.20096875,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.23471875,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.27221875000004,"end":323.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.92971875,"end":325.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.95471875000004,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.92471875,"end":331.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.96221875000003,"end":334.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.06721875,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.37909375000004,"end":340.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.97346875,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.82409375000003,"end":375.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.48284375000003,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.84971875,"end":397.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.08471875000004,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.57221875000005,"end":397.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.26409375000003,"end":403.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.77034375000005,"end":400.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.13284375,"end":401.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.44471875000005,"end":408.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.30471875,"end":447.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.60659375,"end":458.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.45284375000006,"end":460.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.88721875000005,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.75971875000005,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.96221875000003,"end":501.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.40846875000005,"end":507.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.24284375,"end":514.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.2334687499999,"end":514.2122187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.26284375,"end":514.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.43159375,"end":514.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.4653437500001,"end":514.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.51596875,"end":514.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.68471875,"end":514.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.97159375,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.0390937500001,"end":522.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.27534375,"end":516.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.56534375,"end":526.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.7165937500001,"end":531.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3997187500001,"end":529.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.7959687499999,"end":535.9303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機關我們這個原住民族學校法呢就沒有一個主管機關來訂定法律然後也沒有法源的依據所以現在我們有實施這個原住民學校的實驗教育已經實施8年了那還有4年你們有要12年的實驗教育嘛所以這個目前實驗學校推動的情況如何"},{"start":242.249,"end":267.971,"text":"目前大部分大概最久的已經推到8年沒有說但是有的是才推動兩年三年的部分我們有一些相關的成果您覺得成效如何當然是成效是一定有的因為它對原住民的文化傳承包括語言的傳承都有很大的幫助包括原住民的傳統知識的傳承都有很大的幫助"},{"start":268.972,"end":289.253,"text":"我們也看到我們原住民朋友我們希望在這個實驗學校能夠幫助我們原住民朋友的適性的發展因為我們看到原住民朋友在這個唱歌舞蹈甚至體育方面都有非常非常過人傑出的表現"},{"start":290.134,"end":318.228,"text":"那代表我們臺灣呢參加這個世界級的比賽可以說真的的臺灣之光所以我們希望在這個原住民學校實驗學校的部分我們能夠加強這個適性的發展同時提供給他們足夠的資源這個部分主委您是不是有在落實或是您有沒有什麼比較自豪的做法在這一方面這部分跟委員報告我們在"},{"start":319.606,"end":334.339,"text":"原住民的教育裡面我們跟教育部有很好的分工就是一般教育的部分就是國民教育的部分是教育部來主政那民主教育的部分呢就是由原民會協同教育部在學校端來做落實"},{"start":335.42,"end":350.653,"text":"這個部分不管是在體育在業務或是在文化跟各個方面的整個人才培育我們都會跟教育部一起來共同合作來做達成除了這個適性發展之外本席看到您今天的報告裡面有寫到"},{"start":351.934,"end":374.978,"text":"我們在台中的實驗學校他們的學習成果包含他們的一些數理方面的成果我看到你們寫說它平均還高於我們台中市甚至全國的標準這點本席看了覺得你們的成果非常的好這個部分你是不是也可以跟大家來說明一下"},{"start":375.678,"end":390.215,"text":"對的確以剛開始對於實驗學校家長本來還有很多餘力但是剛剛委員提到臺中博馬國小那個部分那個比利亞部校長他們推廣了一段時間以後他們做統計原來不會因為實驗學校讓他們的數學"},{"start":394.119,"end":394.459,"text":"新竹縣有5所實驗學校"},{"start":415.256,"end":442.531,"text":"那這五所本席有稍微去了解一下是不是在這個新竹縣的部分可以加強這一塊因為本席聽到的是在新竹縣的部分可能適性發展歌唱舞蹈的比例非常的高但是他們在一些基本的學科的部分是不是也不要偏廢這一塊本席特別提出來希望這個主委你們這裡在實施的時候也能夠特別注意"},{"start":443.711,"end":458.427,"text":"那再來本席也想提一下都市原住民的議題從我們到去年以及去年底的人口統計我們現在都市原住民的人數已經達到所有原住民人口應該有"},{"start":459.508,"end":475.886,"text":"一半以上所以都市原住民的權益我們也希望主委這裡能夠來為我們原住民都市原住民來加強首先第一個是保障他的居住權的部分那像現在很多縣市都有在"},{"start":477.067,"end":492.783,"text":"辦理這個社會住宅的部分?我不知道原民會這裡為我們都市原住民的這個爭取他爭取以及保障他居住權的部分您覺得績效如何?還有你們有什麼具體的的做法?"},{"start":494.88,"end":512.348,"text":"我們社會住宅跟內政部的整個分工裡面都有充分的合作你跟內政部分工真的就不用講你針對這一塊你的績效怎麼樣目前像我們進駐到社會住宅的這個家戶有9000多戶"},{"start":513.448,"end":535.651,"text":"所以都陸續有在協助就對,包含利息的補貼租金補貼這一塊你們都有在協助我們原住民朋友對我們做分工就是利息補貼是內政部但是建構的就是房子要修繕或者是要買房子的這個部分的補助是原民會來做補助我們都有這樣的一個分工"},{"start":535.831,"end":554.972,"text":"那除了居住權以外我們都市原住民很重要的就是剛剛我們很多委員都提到就是他們的就業職能發展以及生涯規劃的部分那他們的工作的部分我們是不是在這個都市原住民這個部分能夠做更多相關的一個輔導這一塊"},{"start":556.974,"end":572.645,"text":"所以委員也特別拜託委員我們現在我們一直有一個工作前保障法原住民的部分已經很多年沒有修了請您簡達好不好因為我時間已經快沒了對這個工作前保障法修了以後就解決了很多原住民就業的問題"},{"start":573.766,"end":596.921,"text":"這就是我們姐姐的方案這就是希望大家來支持嘛那最後本席問的最後一個問題就是有關原住民族自治的模式主委您看究竟要不要推動立法你的態度是要推不推就這樣簡達就好我剩下30秒我是主張採取分流立法來推比較可能有進度"},{"start":598.145,"end":614.817,"text":"對,所以您覺得可以持續推動但是用分流立法的方式嗎?對,而且按照各個族群的需求來分流立法更可行因為每個族群的需求會不太一樣那但是現在"},{"start":616.38,"end":634.991,"text":"目前好像只限於太魯閣、魯凱、亞美、卑南等族的討論,那其他族呢?我們都樂意提供相關的補助,讓其他族也一起來建構他們實際需要的,比如說像委員跟地方。那你分流立法你覺得什麼時候才能完成呢?"},{"start":636.192,"end":657.759,"text":"如果該族群已經達成共識的我們就可以把相關的法案提出來那像這個部分有跟行政院以及各部會溝通它的可能性、可行性還有其成嗎我們就是希望炒分流立法以後才會有這樣一個補助下行那有沒有規劃其成就是由下而上達到那個自治的目標才可行"},{"start":658.459,"end":658.959,"text":"於將主委"}]}},{"id":"150766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03dc3a7a77c7824ba0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6024dc127ad5acba15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:36:55 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你要用央行的外外存體可以要有償不是無償不是無償你可以跟他買跟他調但是不是無償"},{"start":186.652,"end":192.383,"text":"所以兩個第一個要立法院法第二個不可以無常動用外匯對吧"},{"start":195.058,"end":216.29,"text":"這個結論可以這樣講嗎?暫時的結論第一個專法的部分這個是大家比較有這樣那另外是有償無償這個就還在討論當中當然要有他的一些說法那對所以那個部分還沒有形成這個還沒有定案但是專法是定案的大家比較有共識的部分還沒有定案"},{"start":218.587,"end":219.448,"text":"什麼時候可以訂閱嘛?"},{"start":219.448,"end":220.769,"text":"最後,什麼時候可以訂閱?"},{"start":220.769,"end":225.935,"text":"因為你在主持的啊?因為這個還要形成一個共識啦!啊你共識?"},{"start":225.935,"end":231.06,"text":"啊你過兩天等一下你去當經濟部長那邊議啊?沒有,還會持續啊!"},{"start":231.06,"end":237.688,"text":"政治是延續的,不會因此那個人事的更替不會影響所以你去當經濟部長不差啦齁?"},{"start":238.766,"end":248.869,"text":"我就是跟你請教這個問題最後什麼時候可以定案因為現在財委委員會要去修這個法要修要養法要做這個事你們要趕快出來不然的話馬上就出問題囉你們態度沒有出來的話財委會那邊要弄囉"},{"start":266.52,"end":271.53,"text":"我們盡快,因為已經開過兩次了,我們可能第三次盡快來開。什麼時候盡快?要看其他部會,我們時間會洽其他部會。"}]}},{"id":"150765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0cb69e2808bac462f25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6d8a29ef9c6792bc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:34:11 - 11:41:39","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":448,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:41:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:34:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時34分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，辛苦了。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：我們先就寶林茶室的問題來看，你先念一下它的英文名字好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：Bongkrek acid。"],["盧委員縣一：請問字面上是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是一個……"],["盧委員縣一：它是我們南島語系所謂拍擊的意思、拍打的意思，與米一點關係都沒有，也就是你們取名時是完全複製了中國的名詞，平時不是很喜歡去中國化，為什麼這時候又用了中國的字眼呢？當時是怎麼想的？"],["薛部長瑞元：當時第一次發現可能是這個物質的時候……"],["盧委員縣一：因為它以前是發生在中國，所以就沿用了中國的名詞。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果以中譯來講的話……"],["盧委員縣一：但是念的時候就很不順口啊！剛剛我聽到陳菁徽委員質詢時也是念不太出來，因為我們確實也沒遇過這個，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：米酵菌酸其實與米一點關係都沒有，不過唯一對的是它確實是在發酵時產生的，而且Bongkrek acid也是在油脂類的環境下產生的。這次發生了2個死亡的案件，就年齡而言並沒有一定性，一個是39歲、一個是六十幾歲，你認為它與underlying disease有關係嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：看起來應該是不太有關係。"],["盧委員縣一：現在有5個在加護病房的個案，醫院之間有相互聯繫嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們有找他們一起來開過會，大概做了這些cases本身的一些review，在訊息上應該會有互通。"],["盧委員縣一：我們知道它又稱為唐菖蒲伯克氏菌、又稱為米酵菌酸，沒有一個一定的名稱，唐菖蒲是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是一個植物。"],["盧委員縣一：它是劍蘭，為什麼不稱為劍蘭就好呢？所以有時候要想一下，好幾個名稱都不一致，到底在講什麼，大家都不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：而且這是翻譯的名稱，又不是所有的唐菖蒲伯克氏菌都會產生米酵菌酸。"],["盧委員縣一：在做疾病的命名或規範時，應該讓大家都知道，不然又是這個、又是那個，也不知道到底在講什麼。","從所有的個案看起來，關鍵字大概都是炒粿條，既然是炒就會有油，因此，第一個，是否與油有關係、與調味料有關係？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然都不排除，但是後來我們在……"],["盧委員縣一：現在有比較確定的方向嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們把從寶林茶室收集回來的檢體送驗，包括醬油、包括油、包括粿條等等，並沒有驗出這個米酵菌酸。"],["盧委員縣一：現在已經有25案了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：31案。"],["盧委員縣一：剛剛問的都是保險問題，現在確實是發生傷亡了，完全求償無門，政府要怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：可能也不至於通通求償無門啦！"],["盧委員縣一：不至於？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，該負責的除了寶林茶室這個廠商之外，它的出租者有沒有因為場所而有監督管理的責任，如果有的話，它就必須要負連帶賠償的責任。"],["盧委員縣一：他們現在住的加護病房分別是在臺北馬偕、三總、北醫及臺南市立醫院，我希望這些醫院針對個案的照顧是否能有所謂的視訊會議？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個會啦！"],["盧委員縣一：會有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個基本上都會有，而且我們的CDC疾管署也都陸陸續續在關心這些病人的進展。"],["盧委員縣一：關於小林製藥紅麴的部分，它從2016年開始供應原料、2021年開始販售，大概二、三年的時間造成了這些問題，我們是什麼時候開始注意到的？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是在日本的報導出來之後，也就是在今年的年初。"],["盧委員縣一：現在的作為是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們一方面收集日本那邊的資訊、一方面是接受國內……"],["盧委員縣一：目前臺灣就只有那件洗腎的個案嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在報上來的應該是有6件、有6例。"],["盧委員縣一：它的報導說是不明的物體，不明的物體是指什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["盧委員縣一：你們也不知道？日本也不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒查出來，他們現在只說懷疑是軟毛青黴酸。"],["盧委員縣一：日本現在有5死，你們有沒有做case study？有沒有得到資料？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：希望你們能夠拿到資料，萬一臺灣發生案例時，你們還是可以作為依據啊！可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["盧委員縣一：還是要講到賠償的問題，像這樣的跨海賠償是誰要幫忙？"],["薛部長瑞元：日本那邊有與我們聯繫……"],["盧委員縣一：我們政府有沒有角色？"],["薛部長瑞元：透過政府的IHR，看到point與我們聯繫，也希望臺灣這邊能夠提供通報個案的資料。"],["盧委員縣一：如果導致終身洗腎的話，由哪個窗口與日本政府商談？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前建立的窗口是在IHR，也就是CDC這邊。"],["盧委員縣一：CDC這裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：這個有幫忙、有協助了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩天前他們才來要資料而已，我們現在準備把資料提供過去。"],["盧委員縣一：目前的6案中有幾個人洗腎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好像不是所有案例都是洗腎，我要再確認一下。"],["盧委員縣一：感謝部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有10案，請一併宣讀。","一、","有鑑於今年食安事件頻傳，包含「西布特羅食安事件」、「蘇丹紅食安事件」以及近日「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」，一連串的食安風暴，讓台灣民眾人心惶惶，尤以「寶林茶室中毒事件」累計中毒人數高達31人，更造成二人死亡，五人仍在加護病房搶救當中，且根據衛生福利部，該案目前食材檢體共35件，皆未檢驗出米酵菌酸，整體食物中毒因果尚未釐清。根據行政院食品安全會報設置要點第五條之規定，「本會報每三個月召開會議一次，必要時得召開臨時會議，均由召集人召集並主持之」，食安會報為政府進行中跨部會合作、資訊整合與風險溝通的平台，行政院前雖已於三月中召開，惟是時尚未爆發更為嚴重之「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」，現已具備召開臨時食安會報之必要性與正當性，為敦促行政院以及各部會就食安檢驗、稽查量能、風險預防以及本事件後續處理進行檢討並研擬策進作為，爰提案要求行政院食安辦公室、衛生福利部，儘速提出召開緊急食安會報的需求。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","二、","「民以食為天，食以安為先」，食物是民眾攝取營養的主要來源，並與健康息息相關，其安全問題為長久以來重視的課題，亦是當前影響民生的重要議題之一，尤其隨著生活水準的提高與健康意識的高漲，國人對食品安全的要求日益漸高，亦受到各界高度關注與檢視，此乃政府食安網的計畫緣起與宗旨。去年從巴西蛋到今年台糖豬瘦肉精、蘇丹紅辣椒粉、小林製藥紅麴原料，以及近日寶林茶店等一連串食安風暴，導致各地衛生局稽查人員業務量大幅提升，繁重業務讓人吃不消，補人速度遠不及出走潮，以臺北市為例，去年高達36%稽查人員選擇離職。食安網中的稽查人員，就如同社安網中的社工或專業人員，即便專業要求不同，但都是第一線民眾健康權益的守護者，若基層稽查人員不足，食安網也無法發揮預期功用。如社安網計畫，挹注資源補助地方政府於專業人力的補充，食安網計畫目前較少著墨於此，為了使綿密的食安網系統發揮作用，預防並即時因應未來食品衛生安全事件，爰要求衛生福利部通盤檢討中央與地方稽查量能，強化人力進用及專業久任，增資源、補人力，中央與地方協力，完善食品安全網。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　蘇清泉","三、","有鑑於近期寶林茶室食物中毒事件，造成多名消費者死傷，卻因餐廳業者產品責任險過期，恐造成受害者求償無門。又經台北市政府稽查同商場之業者後，亦有數家業者未保險或保險過期。甚至有持過期保險證件以應付稽查之情形發生，足見此問題應建立有效監督系統改善之必要。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，完成對於餐飲業者之產品責任險，評估建立雲端資料庫之可能性，以供主管機關、保險公司、業者以及民眾做管理及查核之用。","提案人：王育敏","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","四、","有鑑於日本小林製藥生產有毒紅麴事件，我國亦有上百件產品遭到汙染，其中近九成具有衛福部「健食規字」小綠人認證標章，卻仍無法有效保證國民食用保健品或食品之安全性。又查我國另有更進一步個案審查之「健食字」認證標章，惟紅麴類產品，自設立標章機制以來，僅有九件通過，且民眾不易分辨兩種標章區別，恐有造成民眾對政府食安認證標章之信心危機。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，提出小綠人標章之機制檢討報告，評估有效使民眾辨認兩種小綠人標章之可能性。另應同時說明如何解決「健食字」標章產品數量偏少之問題與成因。","提案人：王育敏","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","五、","茲因近日寶林茶室食品中毒案件造成多位國人重病死亡舉國譁然，雖《食品安全衛生管理法》第十三條第一項明定「經中央主管機關公告類別及規模之食品業者，應投保產品責任保險」現行規範係仰賴自我約束之「備查制」，惟業者眾多主管機關無法進行系統化稽查，政府對於未依法投保黑數無從掌握，致衍生此案責任保險已屆期失效。","應將現行食品安全責任保險比照《強制汽車責任保險法》導入強制性，明確規範投保義務人、保險人及主管機關間之權利義務，以利系統化勾稽根除投機業者，爰建請衛福部針對食品安全責任保險改強制性乙案於立法院召開公聽會，並提出《強制食品安全責任保險法》草案。","提案人：陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　涂權吉　　徐巧芯","六、","近期食安事件頻仍，前有進口過期蛋，繼台糖驗出萊豬、「蘇丹紅」事件後，近期又爆出「寶林茶室」食物中毒事件，一連串的食安風暴，讓台灣民眾人心惶惶。台灣食品安全事件層出不窮，過去柴米油鹽醬醋茶幾乎通通出過包，屢屢引起社會震撼，這些事件不僅持續影響著當代人，更跨越數代，對社會造成了深遠的影響。2016蔡英文提出食安五環，食安事件依舊頻仍，顯示效果有限。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，研議食安五環，針對每個環節違反業者研議防堵改善方案，並擬定裁罰措施或提高裁罰金額，避免再發生食安事件，提供消費者安全的食安環境。並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出專案報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔","七、","有鑒於行政院經濟部依電價費率審議會決議電價4月起平均調漲11%，民生用電及產業用電將全面調漲，也帶起民眾日常生活萬物飆漲的問題。與民眾健康息息相關的救命的醫療機構，是24小時運作場域，貴重設備都是低溫不斷電狀態，加上感染控制、室內溫度維持等，用電量就會比一般民生要高，如果電費調漲，以10%漲幅推估，台灣2萬多家醫療院所，一年增加電費會超過30億元。根據中華民國區域醫院協會實際調查，不同規模的醫院（250床以下到450床以上）每月平均用電度數在60萬度到130萬度，平均每月95萬度，這次漲價估計除了原本電費負擔外，額外年度增加成本平均增加500萬，如果用醫院目前總額環境下毛利3%的估算，每年需要增加1.5億的醫療收入才能支付這次漲電價的額外成本，更何況目前醫院總額下毛利僅有1-2%，試問哪一家醫院可以額外增加醫療業務1.5億呢？121家公開財報中，有40家醫務結餘為虧損，另有26家醫務結餘小於1千萬，醫院在生死存亡間載浮載沈，當電價海嘯襲來，便將瀕臨熄燈滅頂、被迫縮減醫療提供。衛生福利部對醫療的管制，採社會福利的思維計畫性經濟的管制措施，儼然醫療機構的生存可視為社會福利的公益團體。爰此，為保障民眾就醫的可得性與品質，衛生福利部及經濟部必須共同考量醫療機構的社會公益的特殊性，醫療機構應比照社福機構允列入凍漲電價。是否有當，敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　王育敏","八、","近期因寶林茶室中毒案影響國人攝取米飯、米食製品及木耳等產品的消費信心。我國目前每年稻米產量約140萬公噸，國內稻米在收穫後，會經過烘乾、碾製、包裝等步驟，從稻穀收穫，到包裝成食米過程，都沒有經過發酵步驟，且市售食米多數於收穫後半年內售磬，受到汙染的可能性低。","農糧署也特別對外表示，以米為主成分或純米製成的粿條、米粉等產品，不經過發酵步驟，製程單純。爰此，為重建民眾對米類製品信心，提案要求一、衛福部應盡速完成事件調查，嚴格要求地方政府落實食品安全督導業務。二、衛福部應跨部會合作，針對米類製品進行相關食品安全衛教及宣傳，並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告。","提案人：黃秀芳　　劉建國　　王正旭","九、","日前，食藥署及疾管署會同臺北市政府衛生局及毒物專家至「寶林茶室」聯合調查，抽驗涉案餐點所使用之食材高麗菜、豆芽菜、醬油、鴻喜菇及香蘭葉等共35件檢體，由食藥署攜回檢驗，針對粿條檢體及關鍵檢體（粿條、香蘭葉、在來米粉、醬油、老抽），目前仍進行檢驗中。另上游供貨商產品抽驗15件及8件環境檢體也已送交食藥署檢驗。然截至目前為止於相關食材中仍無所獲。","依目前檢驗情況而言，僅是確定患者體內「有」米酵菌酸，若進一步進行定量檢驗則可確認濃度，有助釐清患者體內米酵菌酸濃度與病況間的關係，例如若濃度高，就較可認為是米酵菌酸造成，但若低於國際文獻中可能致病的濃度，就要考慮其他可能性、進行綜合判斷。爰此，提案要求衛福部在陸續取得標準品後，應持續優化檢驗方法，盡速完成相關試驗，以利早日釐清毒性物質與個案間病況之關係。","提案人：黃秀芳　　劉建國　　王正旭","十、","針對此次台北市寶林食安事件，除遠百A13店從去年10月就沒有投保食品及公共意外責任險外，其他如饒河店、松山店、台北車站店的保險也全部因為欠費未繳而喪失保約，此事凸顯出餐飲業者在未投保保險、未登錄非登不可平台、未提供員工體檢資料以及進貨單據等行政類作業，政府端竟然都沒有預警機制。","同時針對餐廳業者保險未保一事，從中央衛福部、地方衛生局處、百貨公司業者、美食街承攬業者等，竟然都沒有人知道，層層把關機制完全喪失。","對此要求衛福部立即檢討一個月內建立，諸如保險資訊、員工體檢報告、進貨單據這些資料，可以透過系統勾稽，系統警示的，應該盡速來建置系統，同時研擬百貨業者、美食街承包商對於下層餐廳的管理責任，建置起一個食安網。","提案人：劉建國","連署人：黃秀芳　　王正旭"],["主席：剛剛蘇委員提的第5案及第7案要優先處理，請問各位有沒有意見？"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有。"],["主席：沒有，那就先處理蘇委員的案子。","先處理第5案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第5案有一些文字的修正。第二段第一行修改為「應將現行依據食品安全衛生管理法第十三條授權公告導入強制性」；第二行沒有修改；第三行的「以利系統化勾稽」的「勾稽」劃掉，修正為「以利系統化根除投機業者」；再來是「爰建請衛福部針對前述公告改強制性一案召開說明會，並提出公告修正草案」。不過，這個本來就是強制的。"],["主席：本來就是強制，現在是沒有落實的問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：應該是在執行的時候、地方稽查的時候，可能要確實去……不過，這個都是強制的，改這個要怎麼……"],["主席：現在就一案一案來，第5案，巧芯委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：主席，我說明一下。雖然食品安全管理法現在看起來是強制的，但實際上根本不需要向政府部門通報，剛剛林淑芬委員的質詢也講了，為什麼它裁罰的件數這麼少，因為要由地方的每一個稽查員到每一家被檢舉的店去看才知道它是有或沒有，可是我們這個提案講的是比照強制汽機車責任險的保險法。我們都知道汽機車強制險是會通報的，一旦它超時了、一旦它沒有續保的話，將會自動連動到政府部門直接開罰，這是完全不一樣的事情。請不要說我們現在已經有強制來塘塞，因為我們現在所說的強制與一般國人所認知的保險及政府之間的強制是完全不同的，包含在衛福部的網站上也是提到，雖然我們有要求保險，而且保險過期被發現會有罰則，但是雖然要向政府通報，但它的期限超過之後並沒有直接裁罰的規範啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，我們會改我們的系統，以後就會有警示的機制，而且這個警示會通知業者、會通知地方政府，讓他們看到保險即將到期，而且是在到期前的一個月，現在我們正朝這個方向修改。這裡寫得好像又與我們現在那個……因為我們的非登不可現在已經可以讓他們上去勾，只是那個到期了沒有，現在等於是沒有看到那個資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！你們沒有到期的資訊、沒有通報給地方政府、沒有因為這樣連動的後續開罰，後面完全是沒有的啊！你們要做是OK，所以我的意思其實就是一樣嘛！至於公聽會改成說明會，這個部分沒有問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：並提出改善措施，這樣好不好？"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一邊的改善措施？"],["吳署長秀梅：最後一句的「並提出」，因為我們的公告沒有修正。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這個部分沒有問題。"],["吳署長秀梅：並提出改善措施。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒問題。但是我們這個提案的要求非常明確，你不能按照現行的規定讓它只是填報，在填報之後要有與中央及地方的連動、通知，讓中央或地方能夠看到系統並予以開罰。"],["吳署長秀梅：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第5案照修正文字通過。","第6案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第6案第一行後面的「驗出萊豬」要修改成「繼台糖驗出西布特羅」，這次的事件是西布特羅，第一行後面那裡。第二段也有一些文字上的修正，「爰要求衛福部於二個月內，研議食安五環……研議有效防堵不法事件改善方案，並擬定強化措施或落實裁罰」，倒數第二行改為「提出書面報告」，以上。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：可以。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第6案照修正文字通過。","第7案。"],["李副署長君禮：第7案是關於電價調整，我們建議將醫療機構比照社福機構列入凍漲。倒數第二行建議改幾個字，第一個就是加入「評估醫療機構」，並將「應」拿掉，也就是「評估醫療機構比照社福機構列入凍漲之可行性」，我們來評估它的可行性。","主要是向各位委員報告，依照電業法，電價的調整是由電價審議會決定，事實上，這次的電價調整已經開始實施，但是我們願意將委員的建議納入評估，未來在電價調整時可以納入作為凍漲的可行性評估。為什麼社福機構有？主要是針對弱勢團體，這次有考慮針對弱勢團體給予凍漲，至於未來醫療機構要不要納入……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你們經濟部就是倉促公告，我好像在國防委員會有聽到這個理由，你都是說審議小組已經通過了，所以今天是愚人節就把我們當成瘋子、就是要漲價。之前國民黨團接見醫療團體，我們是要求所有醫療相關的都凍漲，後來衛福部及電價小組表示地區醫院可以凍漲，但是有些區域醫院的規模不大，而且是在偏遠地區。如果你們要這樣，誠如薛部長所言，醫學中心的家大業大比較沒有影響，支出增加1%，但如果是偏遠地區的區域醫院，他們都是很慘淡經營，而且規模也不是很大，只比地區醫院高一檔而已，我能夠接受的就是區域醫院凍漲，至於醫學中心調漲就還可以接受，可以嗎？你又要講電價小組不是你可以控制嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：關於地區醫院的部分，再由我們與衛福部爭取看要如何給予補助。這個真的是半年調整一次，4月1日調整一次、10月1日也會再做一次考量，因為這次已經公告實施了，所以我們會再做整體的評估，並將它納入下次的修正。"],["蘇委員清泉：不然就加上一句，區域醫院以下產生的費用由衛福部編列預算幫忙豁免、幫忙補助啦！部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：他沒錢啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：今年的預算都經過大院的審查通過了，沒有這一項。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們超收的稅收、公務預算都有喔！還有預備金等等，很多啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個都還沒有列入預算。"],["蘇委員清泉：在這個決議加上這一句，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有預算啊！沒有預算啊！不能要衛福部編列預算，因為我們現在沒有預算，預算都已經通過了。"],["楊委員曜：他們要編列預算就要等到明年了。"],["薛部長瑞元：要到明年了。"],["蘇委員清泉：你再念一遍，要怎麼幹？"],["李副署長君禮：評估醫療機構比照社福機構允列入凍漲電價之可行性，也就是我們可以評估，但是無法在這邊承諾一定會凍漲，事實上，這個也已經開始實施了。"],["主席：第7案照修正文字通過。","第1案。"],["許主任輔：主席，剛剛已經向陳委員報告過第1案的部分。中間第十列的「寶林茶室食安中毒事件」前面的「更為嚴重之」5個字建議刪除。再來是倒數第二行的「儘速提出」改成「評估提前」，最後一行的「召開緊急食安會報」，建議將「緊急」拿掉，在最後「的需求」3個字也拿掉，所以最後一句就變成「評估提前召開食安會報」。"],["主席：第1案照修正文字通過。","第2案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第2案的部分，在倒數第二行有文字的修正，我們希望可以改為「強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練，」，後面就接「增資源……」。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛是勉強OK、勉強同意，因為已經有很多委員提出你們最缺的是人力，其實你們原本就有在做培訓了啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：人力這個都有留著，本來是強化人力進用及專業久任，我們把它改成強化人員培訓及相關教育訓練。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你們沒有像社工一樣去盤點，它覺得它自己需要多少人、你們覺得它需要多少人，以至於現在這個缺口很大，所以我想你的當務之急應該是人力而不是培訓，但是你們本來就有在做培訓，所以你把它寫進來也OK，謝謝。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第2案照修正文字通過。","第3案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第3案也是有文字的修正，第二段第一行的「評估建立雲端資料庫」改為「評估改善系統自動示警」接「之可能性」。"],["主席：第3案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第4案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第4案也有一些文字的修正，首先是在第一段第二行的「其中近九成」要修訂為「其中七件」具有衛福部「健食規字」，所以是把「近九成」改為「七件」；再來是把第二行後面的「卻仍無法有效保證」劃掉，我們請求改成「恐影響國民食用健康食品」，這裡就是有文字的修正；第五行的「僅有九件通過，且」劃掉，也就是「自設立標章機制以來，民眾不易分辨」，所以就是劃掉「僅有九件通過，且」，謝謝。","再來是第二段的部分，原本是要衛福部於一個月內，我們希望可以是三個月內。"],["主席：要好好澈底檢討。"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["主席：出來的報告要可供檢視。"],["吳署長秀梅：好。"],["主席：第3案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第8案。"],["吳署長秀梅：在第二段的倒數第三行，原本是「針對米類製品進行……，我們改為「針對食品中毒」，也就是米類製品改為食品中毒。"],["主席：黃委員，可以嗎？好，第8案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第9案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第9案也是有文字修正，第一段第五行原本是「目前仍進行米酵菌酸檢驗中」，因為我們已經都完成了，所以改為「進行米酵菌酸檢驗」；這一段最後一行，「相關食材中仍無所獲」改成「相關食材中米酵菌酸均未檢出」，因為實際上這些食材都沒有檢出米酵菌酸。"],["主席：請問黃委員，可以嗎？好，第9案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：第10案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第10案的第三段有文字修訂，「對此要求衛福部立即檢討」後面加上「一個月內建立」，再接「諸如產品責任險相關保險資訊」，至於後續的「員工體檢報告、進貨單據這些資料」都要劃掉，後面的「可以……」都要保留；第三段第三行中間的「同時研擬百貨業者」改為「同時會同經濟部研擬百貨業者」。"],["主席：可以嗎？好，第10案照修正文字通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請楊曜委員進行發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.58034375,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.49971875,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.90784375,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.66284375,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.720968750000004,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.720343750000005,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.19284375,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.35659375,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.17846875,"end":59.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.10596875,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.70846875000001,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.91096875000001,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.1628437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disease有關係嗎?看起來應該不太有關係那現在這五個加護病房的個案有醫院之間有互相聯繫嗎?因為我們有找他們一起來開過會大概做了這些case本身的一些review所以大概訊息上面應該會有互通"},{"start":142.093,"end":160.561,"text":"好,就我們這一頁看到一個唐昌浦博士菌,它又叫做唐昌浦博士菌,它又是米酵菌酸,都沒有一個一定的那個名稱,那個唐昌浦是什麼意思?應該是一個植物。是,它是健卵。那為什麼就不用健卵就好了?"},{"start":162.793,"end":187.014,"text":"所以有時候要想一下然後跟上面那個又不一致啊那到底在講什麼大家都不知道而且這個翻譯的名稱又不是所謂的唐昌甫伯克氏菌都有產生以下菌酸所以有時候在做一些疾病的一些命名或者是規範應該要讓大家知道不然你又是這個又是那個然後也不知道這到底在講什麼我們拿到那個我們個案數"},{"start":189.343,"end":205.303,"text":"我看這樣一個個案齁就是你從上面到下面看到的關鍵字齁大概都是草規條嘛齁那這個草規條的幾乎上最主要的關鍵字就是草嘛所以它就是有啊所以想到的話是不是這樣子第一個"},{"start":206.618,"end":234.397,"text":"跟油有關係?跟調味料有關係?當然都不排除啦但是後來我們在現在有比較確定的方向了嗎?現在我們把那一個從寶林茶室這邊收集回來的這些檢體去驗包括醬油、包括油、包括包括這個果條等等這一些大概都沒有驗出來這個所謂的米酵因素那現在是25案了嘛對不對?欸,31"},{"start":236.778,"end":262.726,"text":"三十一岸那你看剛才都說保險的問題那現在如果說確實有發生傷亡了那完全球場無門我們政府要怎麼辦可能也不至於通通球場無門第一個就是說該負責的除了這一個寶林茶室本身這一個廠商之外的話那他的出租者"},{"start":264.546,"end":281.822,"text":"有沒有這個因為場所而有監督管理的責任這件事情如果有的話他就會必須要有付年代賠償的責任我剛剛看到了就家務病房有臺北馬街有三重有北醫還有臺南市立醫院"},{"start":282.583,"end":301.67,"text":"那我希望能不能他們有一些所謂的呃所謂的視訊會議對個案的照顧上面這個會啦這個這個會有嗎這個基本上都會有啦那我們也都那個我們的CDC齁集管署也都陸陸續續在關心這一些病人的一個進展"},{"start":303.731,"end":324.005,"text":"關於小林製藥這個紅麴的部分他2016年開始原料供應然後2021年開始販售那大概兩三年的時間造成這些問題那我們是什麼時候開始注意到我們這個問題應該是在日本的報導出來應該是在今年的年初"},{"start":325.855,"end":353.795,"text":"那現在的作為是什麼現在我們一方面還是收集這個日本那邊的一些資訊一方面的話我們就接受我們國內所以目前臺灣就只有那一件洗腎的個案嗎現在報上了應該是有六件有六例啦他上面寫說很像也不是Straining嘛他說是不明的物體那不明的物體是指什麼現在還不知道所以也不知道日本也不知道也還沒查出來"},{"start":354.375,"end":375.868,"text":"他們現在只是說那個軟毛青梅樹這一個部分的話他們懷疑的那日本現在無死那你有沒有做case study有沒有得到資料目前還沒有還是希望你們能夠拿到資料不然我們台灣發生的話你還是可以做一個依據啊可以嗎當然當然那還是講到賠償的問題像這跨海賠償是誰要幫忙"},{"start":383.086,"end":411.275,"text":"日本他們那邊有跟我們聯繫有跟我們聯繫啦就透過政府的IHR看到point跟我們聯繫那也希望說臺灣這邊能夠提供這一些通報出來個案的資料如果導致終身洗腎的話是哪一個窗口跟日本政府來談目前在目前建立的窗口是在IHR也就是CDC這邊CDC這裡對對"},{"start":413.596,"end":430.355,"text":"阿這個有幫忙嗎?有協助了嗎?這件?剛剛他兩天前他才來要資料而已阿我們現在準備把資料所以你目前的六案裡面有幾個人起身?好像不是所有都是起身這我應該再確認一下"},{"start":444.568,"end":444.709,"text":"展現部長"}]}},{"id":"150764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0805bf190e0f9019b82ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a68e32f538a164e72e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:30:20 - 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北極邀請我們交通部王國材請王部長高鐵有在嗎高鐵 盧浩東 盧武總好 謝謝部長部長有一件事情北極在這裡要肯定那也請託希望高鐵因為高鐵在台南那個旅客數我們台南最近非常熱門"},{"start":32.898,"end":59.506,"text":"李克的運量增加非常快速去年前年2022年366萬人次去年就477萬增加30%那其中一個很重要的就是高鐵的快捷快捷公車那時候高鐵有補助你看使用高鐵快捷公車的乘客數也增加非常多我們去年前年42萬去年就到快60萬增加了40%"},{"start":61.426,"end":81.243,"text":"部長你知道嗎?我們以高鐵到台南市中心就以台南市政府為例你知道要多久嗎?大概平常要30分鐘你如果交通尖峰時期,台南市政府坐到高鐵大概要40分鐘像我就住在台南市政府附近我要來立法院開會,我每天要5點起床,6點出門,做6點38分"},{"start":85.231,"end":85.671,"text":"我們交通部有一條兩百"},{"start":107.472,"end":131.698,"text":"45億的所謂公共運輸服務升級計畫4年期的計畫到今年要截止了這245億目前只執行160億執行率只有65%還有85億給你錢你也不會花還有85億所以本期才提案你對於一些公共運輸不方便的地方像台南市"},{"start":133.458,"end":161.386,"text":"臺南市也沒有捷運我們雖然是直轄市不上捷運工作體系還在起步階段其實因為它剛升格沒有多久我們確實需要很多公共運輸的支持如果以這個目前為止已經花掉了這160億像臺中就拿了73億高雄市72億臺南幾乎只有他們一半40億所以我才會提案要求交通部你要盡速把這個補助執行下去"},{"start":162.466,"end":184.659,"text":"你來要預算的時候委員會支持你給你245億你說4年你要執行完到現在只有65%所以我希望你應該補助一些像臺南市啦一些或者一些公共運輸比較不方便的地方包括他的市區公車啦國道客運啦甚至軌道運輸啦或者像等等這些"},{"start":186.004,"end":207.193,"text":"不同運具間的不同運具之間的轉乘接駁的服務部長你有看法嗎你知道這個事情我瞭解因為他們因為1月3日開始有那個電動公車另外一個計畫所以可能在他們編預算的時候有一些沒有編但是對於台南的公共運輸"},{"start":211.054,"end":212.395,"text":"國際機場的無人機防制計畫請問屬不屬於國安業務的範圍"},{"start":238.742,"end":242.605,"text":"臺北國際機場 松山機場 桃園國際機場現在他們的無人機增防系統操作在松山機場"},{"start":263.615,"end":276.718,"text":"他把他界定為這項採購﹖確實是涉及國家安全﹖就部長你講的那陶基說﹖這個不是國家安全的採購﹖我請問誰才對﹖部長﹖無人機的防治﹖陶基說不是國家安全的採購﹖但是我之前曾經新聞給陶基"},{"start":292.623,"end":307.495,"text":"因為行政院對無人機的防治大家知道吧現在俄羅斯戰爭以來大家看到都知道無人機的重要性那個時候行政院早就通過無人機的防治還有防禦"},{"start":309.079,"end":330.31,"text":"是國家安全的重要計畫但是像桃機這麼重要的國門45年來幾乎沒有進度你知不知道我把那個時鐘表給部長看一下2019年行政院就核定了各機場你要有自己的無人機防疫計畫到2023年到去年"},{"start":332.639,"end":349.393,"text":"你預算也沒有執行也沒有什麼進度說要跟中科院合作中科院說他不執行這個計畫你到底要怎麼辦啊來部長你看一下當時來交通委員會要了2億2022年的執行金額02023年8400萬執行率43%那今年我們要執行狀況如何"},{"start":359.828,"end":366.633,"text":"然後你的機場,你們管的國際機場,松端機場說這個是屬於國安的採購,淘機說不是,現在到底是怎樣?好,結果淘機跟松機都把這項業務,無人機的房子都轉包給民間的保全公司,部長你知道吧?"},{"start":383.137,"end":411.154,"text":"我不是說民間的保全公司松山機場說這是國安業務他不是松山機場也不是航警局在做也不是相關國安單位在做是他民間的保全公司在做淘機未來也是啦他都把業務給民間的保全公司啦我不知道民間的保全公司有沒有能力啦或者是他負責操作的人員有沒有證照啦有沒有審查有沒有如何考評啦"},{"start":412.267,"end":430.896,"text":"那這兩個機場的保全公司做得好不好?這兩家保全公司過去多次都違反勞動,因為勞動部有規定,為什麼?他們很多都外包啦,不過整個都做外包的啦。松山機場60間,淘機違規26件。"},{"start":434.714,"end":463.33,"text":"陶器更離譜啦陶器現在這間保全公司啦我們一年給他2億8千萬啦他顧到電腦廠去用陶瓦的你知道嗎你知道嗎辛苦鬧很大耶然後給他2億8千萬他的保全業務做到電腦先被偷減那陶器怎麼處理不是處罰這一家保全耶就另外編了6千多給他6千萬讓他去聘請更多保全人員就查陶他又電腦而已"},{"start":465.489,"end":467.91,"text":"我請陶俊先說明一下這件事"},{"start":489.62,"end":512.642,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關無人機防制的部分我們大概有兩部分的工作第一個部分是跟中科院來委辦給他建制這個系統我們去年已經有達成共識所以剛剛委員所提到去年的8400萬就是中科院的這個系統已經開始在建制今年還會持續分期來建制"},{"start":513.263,"end":536.264,"text":"那另外就是我們在操作檢視監看螢幕的部分是的確我們是委外請保全來辦理那這個部分的話也跟我們行務單位是在我們行務單位的監管之下如果有系統裡面偵測到無人機尤其我們會確認他是那你怎麼知道那你怎麼知道那些操作人員有合乎資格專業"},{"start":537.745,"end":559.787,"text":"你有認證嗎?你有執照嗎?因為我時間到了啦部長還有我們淘機的相關主管董事長重慶這個問題你要搞清楚啦你交給民間保全做可以嗎?把他納回你們保全公司的那個業務範圍裡面這樣對嗎?你不是每次跟你要相關的公務你都說國家安全他拒絕給我勒"},{"start":561.048,"end":561.349,"text":"林委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"150763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0da54f0b75b617ada82ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6f80bfb6e838a57535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:18:55 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11:30:11","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":676,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:30:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:18:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時18分）謝謝召委，是不是請部長，還有觀光署署長，航港局、公路總局。"],["主席：請部長、周署長、航港局葉局長、公路總局陳文瑞局長。"],["王部長國材：召委好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長、各位首長，大家早安。極端氣候對馬祖的影響，像東引跟莒光常常碰到濃霧，這兩個地方是沒有機場的，因為沒有機場，到時候要救援的時候，還不只航港局喔，可能直升機什麼的，這個可能都要配合，部長可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：機場部分是不是請民航局來說明？"],["陳委員雪生：民航局？"],["王部長國材：是要叫機場還是港口？"],["陳委員雪生：民航局還有港口都要！"],["王部長國材：所以你的意思是說東引跟莒光要有機場？小機場？"],["陳委員雪生：我是問你怎麼救援啦，因為有時候浪大。"],["何局長淑萍：東引現在有直升機飛行場，而且目前有直升機在運作。"],["陳委員雪生：如果用在極端氣候的話，那筆錢你們也要配合一點嘛！對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：有關機場設施改善的部分，還是飛行？"],["陳委員雪生：設施沒有問題，我是說遇上極端氣候，那時候就需要救援直升機，每跑一趟，我們縣政府就要負擔一趟的錢！"],["何局長淑萍：好。"],["陳委員雪生：在局長部分，請你考慮一下，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好，這部分我們回去研究一下好了。"],["陳委員雪生：好，你們研究一下。"],["何局長淑萍：因為直升機是……"],["陳委員雪生：航港局的部分，就是請你們看看哪裡的船調度什麼的，怎麼來怎麼去嘛！好不好？你們注意一下。"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["陳委員雪生：兩位局長請回，謝謝。","就觀光署部分，部長，我最近可能會去一趟大陸，還是要拜託他們金馬小三通先放啦！我聽說馬前總統去北京，如果有可能在520以前大陸同胞能夠放過來，我們先釋出善意表示歡迎嘛！我知道你的委屈啊！"],["王部長國材：沒有、沒有意見。"],["陳委員雪生：要是團放的話，當然你也要冒很大的風險，我知道。但是現在大陸團不來，我們大家要共同努力嘛！"],["王部長國材：好。"],["陳委員雪生：所以，對於馬前總統去，我希望執政黨不要一直攻擊他、罵他，總要跟大陸談事情嘛！在一個中國的原則下沒辦法談問題，那就繞個圈、轉個彎嘛！用中華也可以啊！對不對？我們都是中華炎黃子孫嘛！新加坡也是中華民族的啊！所以繞一個圈去講話，可能會好一點。你若有機會到國安會，幫我做意見表達，好不好？","署長，謝謝您，請您注意一下金門跟馬祖的狀況，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝，署長請回。","最近馬祖起濃霧，我們急需有反光標誌，也就是一些可以反光的標誌。但上次我去苗栗看，發現霧非常大時，反光板根本看不清楚。在馬祖，到雲台山的路段還有北竿一些小路段只能用太陽能裝置，局長，可不可以？你請連江縣政府送規劃案過來嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：是、是、是，這部分我們有了解，連江縣政府今年已提案，就是要增設這種太陽能導光板……"],["陳委員雪生：對。"],["陳局長文瑞：已經提報到部裡面，大概會用道安經費協助。"],["陳委員雪生：那希望局長也將辦理情形給我回報一下，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：不要每一次我問完就算了、問完就算了。"],["陳局長文瑞：目前在部裡面審查……"],["陳委員雪生：你們的頭腦很好，我的頭腦沒有你們那麼好，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好，一定跟委員講。"],["陳委員雪生：注意一下喔！"],["王部長國材：這個我也會追蹤一下。"],["陳委員雪生：好，局長請回。","另外，國發會已經把機場改建案送到行政院去了。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那麼請部長還有局長……何局長，謝謝，拜託你要聽到，好不好？拜託你關心行政院秘書處、也就是院長那邊核定的狀況怎麼樣。因為我在總質詢時要求兩個禮拜之內，而院長押一個月，那一個月的時間快到啦！"],["王部長國材：國發會已經送到行政院，應該會循秘書長、副院長跟院長程序進行。我覺得既然國發會都已經同意了，北竿機場這一案應該很快會核定。"],["陳委員雪生：好。","對於最近的花東條例，你看！沸沸揚揚的，立法院兩黨大家都在對峙。反觀我們的馬祖大橋可行性評估也做了，綜合規劃也做了、而且快完成了，但綜合規劃一直在打轉。交通部有沒有行文世曦，詢問到底預算要多少錢？你們問一下嘛！起碼去個文。我都沒看到文耶！你副本發給我好不好，局長？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你委託他們嘛！不是公路總局委託世曦嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["陳委員雪生：你去個函給他們，問他們這個工程技術能不能做。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：不要老是我去詢價、去問金門哪一家要標，至少國內要有一家有這個意願嘛！對不對？到時候開標才有人來。要是一家都沒有的話，你叫我們怎麼開標啊？是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我問了老半天，廠商講300億，還是講300億啊！那我們頂多寬列到350億好了嘛！請世曦趕快重新處理一下，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：520以後我要攻馬祖大橋這件事，因為馬祖大橋要做嘛！要是不做的話，叫機場怎麼弄啊？"],["陳局長文瑞：好，在規劃部分，就程序面，行政院大概還有一些指示啦！我們會持續處理。"],["陳委員雪生：不是還有一些，還有很多啦！你要把世曦的技術問題跟預算問題弄出來給行政院看嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：連問都沒問、看都不看，擺在那裡幹什麼？一直在那邊打太極拳，不好吧！你看，我有推什麼花東條例嗎？有用過什麼條例嗎？統統沒有啊！我連離島建設條例都沒動用耶！是不是？那是不是也拜託你們釋出一點善意？部長，好不好？可以吧？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員雪生：好，最後一個問題，主席，對不起，我們都是召委，方便我一下好不好？"],["主席：時間還沒到。"],["陳委員雪生：時間還沒到喔？","關於高雄飛馬祖航線，我要請問部長還有局長，航政司有沒有來？立法院還有沒有其他委員關心？如果有的話，我都非常感謝他們喔！林俊憲委員有關心嗎？謝謝。我回頭跟你磕頭，好不好？高雄飛馬祖航線很重要耶！對了，俊憲委員好像要選市長的樣子，俊憲委員，要是你幫我把這件事弄好，我就幫你拉票，好不好？我連黨的立場都不管，幫你拉票，好不好？咦？這裡有麥克風耶！","關於高雄飛馬祖航線，拜託一下民航局在最近的時間處理，包括立榮航空、華信航空、連江縣政府、馬祖防衛部、陸軍總部還有中油，因為如果它不滿載的話，票價是很高昂的喔！可能一張票要三千多塊到四千塊，因為要減重飛行嘛！運量72人的飛機可能只能載50個，因為怕油料不夠。關於中油在我們那邊的設施，產發處處長講過會馬上把它弄好，弄好以後、在地面可以加到油的話，那就可以載72人啦！若載72人，票價就只要兩千多一點嘛！這樣就有了。這是第一件。","第二件事，拜託找這兩家航公司來談，先用包機方式。我們縣政府都敢負責了，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好。報告委員，這部分我們會再開會，邀業者再討論一下整個運能的情形跟後續怎麼處理。"],["陳委員雪生：我們的王忠銘縣長是一個非常負責、盡職的縣長，我當縣長時，他是我的秘書長，我非常清楚。所以有一些人假借其他理由要罷免他，我聽不下去啦！罷免什麼東西？看到其他縣市在罷免，我們也要玩罷免的遊戲？要罷免那麼忠誠、那麼負責的一位縣長、五星級縣長，我聽到都氣死了，你知道嗎？現在不管如何，他的案子、連江縣政府高雄到馬祖航線的案子，是不是送到民航局了？送來沒有？"],["何局長淑萍：沒有，就我們這邊，是因為之前委員提起，所以我們會……"],["陳委員雪生：他們有公文送到你們這裡來了，我有收到正本喔！還是正本喔！"],["何局長淑萍：我們是因為委員質詢，所以開會。至於縣府的文，我們沒有，不過沒關係啦！這個……"],["陳委員雪生：那我改天再召集一次會議，好不好？拜託相關單位一起到我這邊、到立法院再開一次會。我希望包機先試飛個幾趟嘛！讓它完成，好不好？因為那邊的阿兵哥有一半是住在中部以南，他們回家的路很遠。還有很多南部觀光客，有的人從小三通那邊繞一圈回來，也有人要先到臺北過夜，才能到馬祖觀光旅遊，我想俊憲委員應該也了解嘛！你也幫我們拉客好不好？至於其邁市長那邊，我也拜託他啦！"],["林委員俊憲：沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：最主要還是航空公司啦！"],["何局長淑萍：其實主要……"],["陳委員雪生：航空公司要民航局溝通。"],["何局長淑萍：主要就是它ATR的運能現在真的很有限，不過這部分我們再開會，再來看看怎麼處理。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，抽一、兩架次包機嘛！試試看嘛！我們先不講運能啦！你不要拿運能來擋我。要是你拿運能來擋我，那一次都飛不了。"],["何局長淑萍：委員，這部分我們再協調，看看業者的……"],["陳委員雪生：因為你前面跟我講包機問題，現在包機快要OK了，你又講運能。等運能也沒問題了，你又要扯一個其他問題出來。"],["何局長淑萍：包機還是要看運能嘛！我們會就這個部分協調、儘量協調。"],["陳委員雪生：我想，何局長是這麼聰明、非常有智慧的局長，王部長也提拔你當民航局局長，一定有原因的，你在副局長任內評價很高，拜託你幫我完成這個任務好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，我們儘量努力。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，局長要幫我做，你不能反對吧？"],["王部長國材：支持。第一個就是馬祖那邊加油的部分先處理，包機我們也會促成。"],["陳委員雪生：我第一件事情拜託你在520以前把這件事完成。第二件事情，520以後若還是你繼續留任，那我就是這兩個心願，好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：陳召委發言完畢。","現在請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報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":96.987,"end":120.09,"text":"那觀光署的部分部長我最近可能會去一趟大陸我還是拜託他們金馬小三東先放我聽說馬前總統去北京有可能火20以前如果大陸同胞能夠放過來我們先釋出善意表示歡迎我知道你的委屈"},{"start":122.312,"end":139.439,"text":"你說團放放的話當然你要冒很大的風險我知道啦但是現在大陸團又不來我們大家共同努力嘛所以馬前總統去啊我希望執政黨不要一直去攻擊他罵他你總要跟大陸要談事情嘛"},{"start":140.199,"end":160.365,"text":"那你在一個中國的原則之下沒辦法談問題你繞個圈轉個彎嘛用中華也可以啊對不對我們都是中華元皇子孫嘛新加坡也是中華民族的啊所以用繞一個圈去講話可能會好一點有機會到國安會幫我這個意見表達好不好"},{"start":164.5,"end":174.447,"text":"好,那署長謝謝您,您注意一下金門跟馬祖的狀況好不好?謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝署長請回最近馬祖農務,我們急需什麼?反光標誌"},{"start":179.269,"end":197.183,"text":"反光一些標誌,上次我去苗栗看了以後,霧非常大,你那個反光那個板根本都看不清楚,在我們馬祖到雲台山的路段,還有北竿有一些小路段,那個路段可能用太陽能的,局長可不可以?"},{"start":199.427,"end":221.569,"text":"你請連江縣政府那邊弄規劃案過來嘛是是是這這個部分就是說我們有了解就是說這個連江縣政府今年有提案齁那提出就是說要偵測這種太陽能的這種導光導標對好不好那呃提報到部裡面來那這個大概會用道安經貝的協助那希望局長你也辦理情形跟我回報一下好不好好好不要每一次問完就算了問完就算了"},{"start":223.029,"end":245.474,"text":"你們頭腦很好,我頭腦沒有你們頭腦好好不好?這個我來追蹤一下好,局長請回另外就是機場改建已經送到國發會送到行政院去請部長這邊還有局長何局長謝謝何局長拜託你再盯到好不好那個行政院秘書處"},{"start":247.202,"end":272.747,"text":"院長那邊合併的狀況怎麼樣?因為我在總諮詢要求兩個禮拜之內,那院長要說一個月,一個月時間快到了。國安會已經送到院,應該會尋秘書長、副院長跟院長的行程。我是覺得國安會已經也都同意了,所以我覺得北竿機場這個應該很快會合併。好,那最近這個"},{"start":275.171,"end":300.431,"text":"花東的條例你看菲菲妍妍、立法院你看我們兩黨都在那邊對視我們的馬祖大橋可行性評估也做了綜合規劃也做了快完成了綜合規劃一直在那邊打轉一直在打轉交通部你們有沒有問過有沒有行文給世襲問到底預算要多少錢你們問一下嘛"},{"start":301.816,"end":330.132,"text":"起碼去個文,我都沒看到文,你副本給我好不好?你委託他們嘛,不是公路總局委託世襲嗎?你去個行給他們,你這工程技術你們能不能做?你不要老是我去尋家去問金門哪一家飆的那個至少國內有一家有這個意願嘛,對不對?我們到時候開飆才有人來你一家都沒有的話,那你叫我們怎麼開飆啊?是不是?"},{"start":331.663,"end":351.597,"text":"我去問了老半天他說300億還是講300億啊那頂多我們估算寬列350億好了嘛請世襲趕快去弄一下好不好因為520以後我要攻這個馬祖大橋因為馬祖大橋你要做嘛你不做的話你到那個機場怎麼弄啊"},{"start":352.557,"end":374.05,"text":"我們規劃的部分齁因為呃程序面的部分因為行政院大概還有一些指示啦所以我想我們會持續還有一些還有很多啦我還會持續再提問你把士氣跟那個技術的問題預算的問題你把它弄出來給行政院看嘛好他連問都沒問連看都不看擺在那裡幹什麼一直在那邊打那個太極拳你會不會打"},{"start":374.991,"end":375.151,"text":"高雄馬祖的航線"},{"start":403.864,"end":422.428,"text":"我請問部長,還有請問局長,杭政司有沒有來?我們立法院有沒有哪一位委員,還有其他委員關心?如果有的話我都非常感謝他們,是不是?林俊憲委員有關心,謝謝。我回頭給你磕頭好不好?"},{"start":425.228,"end":451.219,"text":"非馬祖的航線,這很重要,對了軍縣委員要選市長這樣,軍縣委員你幫我這個弄好我就幫你拉票好不好?我連黨的立場我都不管,我幫你拉票好不好?欸這裡有麥克風嗎?那個高雄非馬祖航線,拜託一下民航局啊,你在最近的時間,利隆航空、華信航空、臨江縣政府"},{"start":452.45,"end":481.619,"text":"馬祖防衛部陸軍總部還有中油因為如果他不滿載的話那個票價是很高昂的可能一張票要三千多塊到四千塊因為他要減重飛行嘛72人的一個飛機可能只能載五十個怕油料不夠但是中油在我們那邊我們那個廠方都出來來講了嘛馬上會把它弄好弄好以後呢在我們地面可以加到油的話那就72人啊"},{"start":482.625,"end":497.453,"text":"既然票價只要2000多一點這樣就有了這第一件第二件我拜託找這兩家海運公司來談先用包機的方式我們現在我都敢負責了好不好"},{"start":498.944,"end":526.353,"text":"這個部分我們會再來開會,會邀業者再來討論一下整個運能的情形跟後續怎麼來處理我們王中民縣長是一個非常負責進職的一個縣長我當縣長他是我的秘書長,我非常清楚所以有一些人假借其他理由什麼要罷免他的人,我聽不下去啦是不是在罷免什麼東西?你看到人家縣市在罷免,我們也在玩罷免的遊戲"},{"start":528.041,"end":542.126,"text":"那麼忠誠那麼負責的一個縣長五星級的縣長我聽了我都氣死了你知道嗎現在不管如何他的案子連江縣政府高雄到馬祖航街的案子是不是送到民航局了?送來沒有?"},{"start":543.004,"end":571.055,"text":"沒有,我們這邊是之前委員有在提起,所以我們這邊會來他有公文送到你這裡來,我有收到正本我們是委員質詢,所以我們來開會那縣府的文我們是沒有拜託我改天再召集一個會議好不好所以這些相關的單位一起到我這邊,到立法院來再開一次會我希望這個包機先試飛個幾趟好不好,讓他完成"},{"start":572.591,"end":600.434,"text":"因為那邊阿兵哥有一半是住在中部以南他們回家的路很遠還有觀光客很多南部的觀光客有的跑到從小山東那邊繞一圈回來也有的要到台北來過夜才能夠到馬祖來觀光旅遊我想據縣委員你應該也了解你也幫我們拉客好不好那其邁市長那邊我也拜託他有拜託"},{"start":602.277,"end":623.574,"text":"最主要還是航空公司航空公司要民航區主要就是他ATR的運能現在真的是很有限不過這部分我們再來開會抽一兩架出來包機嘛試試看嘛我們先不去講運能啦你不要拿運能來擋我你拿運能來擋我的話那一次都廢不了委員這部分我們再來協調因為你前面跟我講包機"},{"start":624.815,"end":648.603,"text":"現在包機快OK了,你又講運能運能也沒問題,你又扯一個其他出來包機還是要運能,我們這個部分來協調我想以我們何局長這麼聰明非常有智慧的局長你看王部長都提拔你當民航局局長,一定有原因的你當副局長任內,對你就評價很高拜託你幫我完成這個任務好不好"},{"start":650.829,"end":673.397,"text":"我們盡量來努力部長,局長要幫我做,你不能反對吧?就是現在先,第一個馬祖那邊的加油的部分先處理,那包機我們來促成我第一件事情拜託你520以前把這個事情完成第二件事情520以後還是你繼續留任我只有兩個心願好不好?謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c06a77e4171754666d9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a672011da6d2d527785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:28:01 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11:38:28","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":627,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:38:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:28:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時28分）主席、各位同仁、所有列席的首長。今天是歷史上非常重要的一天，今天吳宗憲吳主席、吳召委來主持國會五法的改革，我想我們要堅持，立法院就是要改革，國會是要撐起全國的半邊天，我們是承襲了百分之百的民意，我們更要做好每一樣該讓國人了解清楚的事項。","今天民進黨政府在臺南主政，88槍開完以後又開了10槍，10槍開完又當街槍殺，已經到了一個無政府的狀態，為什麼敢光天化日在大馬路上行兇？後面牽扯的利益到底有多大？為什麼關係到2,300萬人安危的疫苗採購，衛福部能夠不讓國會了解不能採購的原因是什麼？花了8,400億，為什麼買不到疫苗？原因是什麼？為什麼要擋BNT？原因是什麼？這中間有多少官商勾結？雞蛋為什麼要買巴西蛋？為什麼快篩劑要小吃店來進口？有多少官員跟民間勾結？當司法權，當國會執政黨所掌握的多數部會完全掩蓋人民知的真相的時候，這些早早應該送到司法機關去法辦的重案，當執政黨全數掩蓋貪污腐敗事實的時候，國會是最後能夠讓真相大白的機構，所以不管是政府官員抑或是中華民國國民，在法律之前人人平等，都不能迴避相關的責任。今天的國會改革非常清楚，就是要讓這些人、讓所有的重大弊案無所遁形，在國會能夠清楚地受到全民的監督，做事實的調查。","立法院並不負責判刑，更沒有所謂國會的恐嚇，我想國會的恐嚇過去一向都是執政黨的專利，在這裡大聲咆哮，在這裡掩蓋事實，甚至前任的閣揆蘇貞昌還可以公然表達什麼案子可以不用查，NCC的誰可以不用查、陳耀祥可以不用查，是隔空暗示法務部不要查是嗎？當一個國家已經腐敗到行政機關就是貪污腐敗的核心，就像詐騙集團是從臺灣行銷到全世界，因為一個詐騙的政府代代相傳，現在已經成為世界奇蹟，臺灣竟然成為全世界詐騙的發源地，這是臺灣之恥！我想今天當國會效能不彰，任由政府腐敗，當監察院早就應該廢止，已經沒有任何調查功能，這個時候國會必須要伸張正義，讓這些犯罪、這些腐敗無所遁形。","今天的陽光法案就是要讓國會有權，讓我們國會能夠如同所有先進國家有國會聽證調查權，在這裡，法律之前人人平等，任何人都不能有保護傘，要勇敢地面對司法，不要說你不是政府官員，你是臺灣人民，你都要面對司法的調查。國會聽證並不表示國會可以判你的刑，我們是把他交給司法機構去審判，我們還是尊重國家應有的體制，該由司法審判的由司法來審判，該由國會調查的由國會來調查，分權非常地清楚。","但是從2012年到2016年，到現在已經民國第幾年，所有民進黨提出的國會改革相關法令，已經8年了，民進黨執政邁入第9年，有開過聽證會嗎？零次！有開過任何調查權的公聽會嗎？零次！今天在這裡恥言，再三地恥言國會改革如何重要，無恥！執政了8年，把自己對人民的承諾完全踐踏在土地上！還要恥言，在這裡有臉講需要時間、需要完備、需要公聽會，這個會期從2月1日到現在，民進黨什麼時候說過要開公聽會了？民進黨沒有召委嗎？難道一定要有法條才能開公聽會嗎？任何時間都可以開公聽會！只要是國家必須要探討的事情，隨時都可以開公聽會，我們在這裡針對民進黨腐敗至此，我們真的覺得是臺灣奇蹟，詐騙治國、毀憲亂政，莫此為甚！","法務部有多少案子沒有辦法辦，因為上上級的交代，壓力之大，沒有辦法辦。在這裡我們真的很好奇，有這麼多的國家重案，到底辦到哪裡去了？還有論文可以封藏30年，疫苗採購封藏30年。民進黨提的國會改革法案，未來的調查權竟然是由所在行政主管機關來認定是不是機密，還把行政權擴權，比現在還更慘！民進黨所提出來的國會改革五法，經過了這麼多年，恥言國會改革，在選舉的時候詐騙全國人民，選後完全一場誤會，到今天在野黨聯合起來要求國會能夠讓陽光照進來，此時民進黨煥然甦醒了，開始說它要自提版本，提了8年，提了12年，你的版本在哪裡？到今天還要在這裡恥言，大言不慚，破壞議事程序！還要開什麼公聽會、要怎麼樣，我們真的不了解，這樣的一個政權已經從八百多萬票淪落成500萬票，還不了解民眾要下架民進黨！此時此刻，我們只有一個任務要反映全臺灣人民，就是我們必須讓陽光能夠照進國會，照進中央政府，所有中央政府該查的事就要查，要全部在全國國人的監督之下，一起讓我們的吏治能夠清明，讓我們的國家能夠步入正軌，這是我們該做的事情。","很抱歉，秘書長、副秘書長，還有我們部會代表，因為你們今天來，沒有一個人能夠做決定，我們很清楚，所以本席不為難你們，問了你們也答不出來，大家都很辛苦。我們要講的立場非常清楚，國民黨就是要國會改革，讓臺灣不能再腐敗下去，不管哪一個黨執政都不能一黨獨大、貪贓枉法，臺灣已經到了沒有王法的地步，詐騙集團橫行，打詐越打越詐，因為國家就是最大的詐騙集團，我們都不曉得如何教育下一代。","我們在這裡再一次地強調，國會改革五法一定要成功！請民進黨像一個有骨氣的政黨，不要再阻撓，讓陽光照進國會。民進黨應該要額手稱慶，國會改革讓大家有權利來監督政府，讓這個政府能夠有效能、能夠不腐敗、能夠為人民來做事，這應該是執政黨要拜託大家，拜託在野黨趕快共同來推動修法，而不是在這裡阻撓，「卸世卸眾」！我們在這裡再一次希望主席，下次他們再打煙霧彈的時候，破壞整個議事程序的時候，我們千萬要硬起來，我們今天代表的是全臺灣人民的民意，就是國會要改革，這個禮拜一定要把它完成，民進黨如果有任何的異議，很簡單，依照法律來走，你要請憲法法庭來解釋，可以！這裡沒有一個人是大法官，如果柯總召很想當大法官，我建議請賴總統提名他，到立法院來審理的時候，我們好好請教柯總召你如何能夠來當中華民國的大法官，更重要的是大法官是合議制，也不是你一個人講了算，就算你是大法官，也要合議之後才能做決定。","我們再一次表達，執政黨不要動不動就用毀憲亂政來詆毀在野黨，我們知道執政黨的焦慮，因為8年的弊案都會一一地現形，我們會做好在野黨的工作，讓國會、讓國家能夠陽光透明。"],["主席：接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 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如說請交通部啟動可行的研究那我們來看可能會遇到什麼樣的困難那才有辦法去面對它處理它我希望你們不要講毀線亂證所以這個條例我也希望你們不要反對我們先把條例通過讓我們有夢"},{"start":395.922,"end":408.448,"text":"我們來把他希望帶在心裡直步把它完成好不好不要碰到在野黨的一提出的條例你們就反對照理這不是正常民主國家的現象謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c09cf678a0b190c54625a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6da25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:14:57 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11:34:08","影片長度":"00:19:11","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":1151,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:34:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:14:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時15分）主席、各位大家午安，請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，說起來你的部下對立法院來講，其實是很敷衍了事，你自己看，3月4號你們來這裡做食安五環執行狀況和蘇丹紅處理事件的檢討報告，這個是今天的檢討報告，你們的結語除了主詞第一句不同，然後每一字、每一句統統都一樣，結語統統都一樣，結語就是說，我們都已經採取精進措施，強化風險預警功能，而且及早發現，未來將於第一時間阻斷非法產品於境外等等，都講得一模一樣，3月4號跟4月1號寫得都一模一樣的結論，那我們就看你到底有沒有採取精進的措施。","你們在討論光是寶林茶室，我上次、上個禮拜在這裡質詢就跟你講兩點而已，第一個是通報的問題，第二個是對於產品責任險沒有落實，而且沒有稽核、沒有監督的這個問題，就這兩點，你們在這個裡面，食藥署提出來的報告有關食品中毒通報，你們不覺得你們有問題，然後對於投保產品責任險的問題，你說我們有法律了，你就寫這樣子叫做有精進嗎？徒法不足以自行啦！有法律規定在那裡，但是你要怎麼做，你有做嗎？這才是真正的問題啊！","部長，現在我們在講的是，如果因應非典型新型態，而且是非社區型餐飲場所的食品中毒案例，我上次就教於你說，如果沒有新聞露出，大家看到新聞報導才覺得要溯源，然後大家集體去通報，才會有這個案例，如果從3月24日的第一例死亡通報，324、325到326，3月26日新聞露出之後才有大量通報，我跟你說，很冤枉！如果不是因為新聞露出，你去看病，醫生有可能誤判以外，也有可能是說，這是我個人健康管理不良，或是我自己吃壞肚子而已，所以這個通報很重要。","上個禮拜你跟我講說，食品中毒必須兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品發生相似的症狀。但是事實上，你們食藥署在規定、你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段，後半段是因為攝食食品造成急性的食品中毒，不管它是化學的或者是天然的毒素中毒，即便只有1個人，也視為1件食品中毒事件。","但通報是一回事，這種非社區型餐飲場所的食品中毒，通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來，所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的、非典型的食品中毒裡面受害了或者有症狀了可以通報以外，還可以連結在一起，找出正確的對症然後治療，這很重要啊！可是你們根本沒有精進的作業，你們沒有精進的措施，你們說你們精進，怎麼都沒有啊！對整個制度，我上個禮拜就問你們有沒有可以再檢討的地方，難道一點問題都沒有嗎？看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題，你們也不覺得制度有問題、也沒有覺得執行面有問題，你們的結語寫得跟3月4號的報告一模一樣，這不是在唬弄立法院嗎？難怪人家要講藐視國會啊！部長，你也說兩句話！"],["薛部長瑞元：這沒什麼藐視國會啦！事實上是要……"],["林委員淑芬：你就虛與委蛇啊！怎麼會沒有藐視？隨便講一講啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這要有一個時間、一個機制來做處理啦！因為這種非常專業的……"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣講我就聽得下去了，要有一個機制來處理、要有時間，但是你的報告完全不認為有問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！要建立一個補充的機制。"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說，雖然個案數少但是嚴重度高的這種通報的話，也許後面的處理方式會不一樣。"],["林委員淑芬：通報還不是這樣，3月23日給你們通報，大家都沒有來通報，因為新聞沒有露出嘛！是後來3月26日1死1重症露出以後，大家才瞬間湧入。"],["薛部長瑞元：老實講，那個也是有媒體效應的問題。因為一個案子進來的時候，其他醫院並不知道，所以我們未來要去處理這個部分。如果有嚴重的像是死亡的個案，怎麼樣讓醫院知道類似的案例要進來。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！連制度面都有值得檢討的地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，像這個就需要檢討啦！"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們食藥署寫的這個報告能看嗎？我們現在說要成功的預判，所以你們的結論說有更精進的政策、要發揮成功的預判，這些都是說假的，它哪有成功預判過？連使用的既有系統及制度都發生問題，也不承認問題。我現在再問你，部長，未來的米酵菌酸是不是要列入食品的常規檢驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個還是要看這次的調查結果如何，老實講，它是如何發生的到目前為止也還不知道。"],["林委員淑芬：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以你要去說……"],["林委員淑芬：但我們知道如果有米酵菌酸的個案發生，一定都是非常重大的傷亡、重症或死亡，很嚴重。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在到底是在操作的哪一個環節產生米酵菌酸，這是我們目前調查的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！等調查出來之後，再來看要不要列入常規的檢驗項目。"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能調查得出來、也有可能到後來沒有結論。"],["林委員淑芬：如果沒有結論，這個東西是否要列入常規的檢驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：這樣事情就比較大條了！你要如何做常規檢驗……"],["林委員淑芬：你回去之後好好想一下啦！但我今天還是要講，徒法不足以自行，所謂的業者自律，但我們看到的是屢屢破功，根本不可行，絕對不能只仰賴業者自律，你不能讓民眾都是賭自己的生命在外面吃飯啊！你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎？都是外食，大家去吃飯要用生命賭運氣，這是不行的！我們要求至少要確認食安法第十三條第一項的規定，應投保產品責任險的包括食品製造業、輸入業及餐飲業者，通通要投保產品責任險。但是，我們看到機車強制險有一千三百多萬輛機車耶！只要沒有投保，馬上就勾稽出來，告訴你沒有投保要被開罰了，趕快去加保。食品製造業總共有幾家啊？就算是43萬、45萬、甚至是100萬，包括餐飲業者加起來一百多萬……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在是公司登記、商業登記及工廠……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係！我現在告訴你，食品製造輸入經營就算是有100萬家，但是汽車加保強制險有1,300萬輛車子，它都可以管理了，現在就AI大數據而言，你們說沒辦法勾稽管理，我覺得這個真的是不對的！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以做。"],["林委員淑芬：你想看看，這次寶林茶室沒有投保責任險，如果沒有大時代、如果沒有大遠百，這次的傷亡重症根本沒有辦法被接住，怎麼可以不被接住？不能用生命賭運氣，萬一不幸遇到了又沒保險，該怎麼辦？絕對要每一時、每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態中。","我現在問你，這是我們請食藥署提供的資料，從2019年到2023年的五年來，各個縣市沒有投保產品責任險而遭開罰的件數，我不知道食藥署提供這五年來的數字是否正確，如果它對我們虛與委蛇、胡亂講講，我也沒辦法啦！不在上面的是0，沒有開罰的紀錄。全部一共是162件，光是臺南市政府就佔了九成以上，至於其他各縣市，我現在要問的是沒在查或是查不到？大家都這麼好、這麼守規矩？大家都有投保產品責任險？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分是地方提供資料給我們的。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問署長，你覺得這個數字反映的是什麼意思？什麼意義？反映了什麼？"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，因為這條規定是可以讓業者限改，如果去查的時候發現它沒有投保，地方政府會要求它在限期內……"],["林委員淑芬：你看，這麼好！都沒有投保，一年沒保、二年沒保，查到就要求它限期改善，趕快去投保，如此而已，不會開罰，大家當然敢不投保。開罰金額從3萬至300萬，最低開罰從3萬起跳，我們都知道，因為可以限期改善，所以都沒有開罰，數字就是這個意思。我們在法律上雖然有規定，但是在執行面，大家都是輕輕放下，只要它趕快去投保即可，依照署長的講法就是如此。我們現在就問，中央主管機關除了督導地方縣市政府稽查之外、人力配置之外，還要落實法規的規定，不然都可以限期改善，大家可以一年、二年沒有保險，不但錢可以省下來，即使抓到也不會被處罰，這樣對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好啦！這個部分我們會再精進。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！這樣就不對、這樣就不行啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：包括未投保超過多久，也許就不給它……"],["林委員淑芬：未投保超過二天、一天，可以給它一個限期改善的機會，但是未投保一個月、二個月、三個月、一年、二年、三年，處分會一樣嗎？對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["林委員淑芬：所以有沒有需要精進的管理政策？有啊！你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎？沒有！還要立委在此質詢，你們才要講。現在我還懷疑，案件這麼少是地方政府沒在查嗎？還是中央政府沒有與地方政府聯繫？因為沒有與地方政府聯繫，所以不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該就是有去查的啦！"],["林委員淑芬：不是，地方政府看起來有去查，0件、0件、0件、1件，很多縣市政府是0件喔！通通都合格喔！這是地方政府沒在查，或是中央政府沒與地方政府聯繫？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你看臺北市，112年2件、111年1件、109年1件，但是我自己Google去查，臺北市政府查到的好像不是這樣。你再看，臺南市政府有很多、高雄市政府全部都是0，沒有查到，到底是沒有查到或沒有在查，我就不知道了。還是中央政府與地方政府沒有聯繫，提供給立委的數字是不真實的？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為稽查的家數與合格的家數，這個資料我們都有，事實上，呈現出來的不合格家數應該是沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：照你這樣講，你們取得的數據與地方政府是一樣的、而且是真實的，證明全臺灣所有的食品製造業、所有的餐飲業者都有投保產品責任險，完全都沒有問題喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們得到的資訊是這樣沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：如果是這樣，臺北市112年的其中1件應該就是寶林茶室，我是有點懷疑！","我再問你，部長，我們現在看到臺北市政府針對轄區內37家百貨公司及大賣場的美食街進行稽查，目前只有臺北市在進行稽查，或是各地方政府都在進行？"],["薛部長瑞元：據我們所知，目前是臺北市比較積極在做啦！"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼不利用這個經驗、根據這個經驗，要求全國全面性清查一遍？各縣市通通都有百貨公司，況且百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎？剛剛我看到新聞說桃園只查異國料理，只有異國料理有問題嗎？我覺得這樣講是不是有一點怪怪的？我一直講徒法不足以自行，你們今天講了三大主題的檢討及策進行為，光就蘇丹紅事件而言，我們來看一下，查到登錄不實，你們的檢討報告及因應對策很多，但是講來講去就是沒有對自己的檢討，你們都只有對業者的檢討，對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環、你們的溯源追蹤系統中店家登載不實或是應登而未登，你們都沒管啊！你們的報告也沒寫你們都沒管要如何處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！未來對於這些邊境管理的部分……"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得你在衛環委員會對立法院很不尊重耶！我在質詢時就告訴你了，現在被禁的21家中國辣椒粉產品輸入廠商，其中的Kavin Ship是船務公司，根本不是食品公司，你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的、你們還把業者說是來自於Kavin Ship這種假貨源的事寫在這裡向我們報告，說這間公司被我們禁掉了，但這間不是食品製造輸出商、這間是船務公司啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們已經禁了輸入商，在國外的輸入商。"],["林委員淑芬：你今天在立法院向我們報告的，還說把船務公司禁掉了。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是、不是，船務公司……"],["林委員淑芬：你們自己寫的，製造商有一家叫做Kavin Shipping，在第13頁？"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是出口……"],["林委員淑芬：你連這個都不願意更改！你提供給立委的資料還是這樣一字不改！"],["薛部長瑞元：它上面的登記就是這間嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：那就是假的啊！大家都告訴你，這家就是假的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在你又到立法院告訴我們立委，這間被你們禁掉了。"],["薛部長瑞元：進來的那家輸入商已經被禁掉了。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，對於登錄不實的你們平時要如何稽核？不要等到出事再來抓，你要發揮預警預判的功能。監察院說了，第一個，應登入的廠商就已經夠少了，四十幾萬家廠商只登錄了一萬家，在登錄這麼少的量裡面還胡說八道、亂填亂登，你們也沒有進行稽核，這樣要怎麼處理？這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼，你都沒有寫，食藥署到現在還用這種不實的數據來唬弄全立法院的立委。"],["薛部長瑞元：數據沒有不實啦！"],["林委員淑芬：有啊！Kavin Shipping就不是廠商、就不是食品輸出廠商啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是系統上登錄的就是這個名稱啊！"],["林委員淑芬：你現在真的是睜著眼說瞎話，指鹿為馬！你說業者告訴你們的就是這家，但是你們應該要去調查業者真正的廠商再寫上去，人家告訴你這家就不是廠商、不是食品業者。"],["薛部長瑞元：當時在系統裡面輸入製造……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，追溯追蹤系統亂登、登載不實，除了發生重大事件被你們查出來，還不是你們查出來的，而是我們立委幫你查的啦！被立委查出來了，你們才要處罰、你們才要重懲，回頭去看它登錄不實予以嚴懲之外，像海順你們就沒有處分了，但它也是登錄不實啊！平常對於登錄不實的，你要怎麼勾稽？你要怎麼稽核？"],["薛部長瑞元：海順有……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要說等到出問題之後再給予重懲，對於沒出問題的要如何處分、如何處理、如何精進檢討？"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係，請衛福部針對委員提出來的……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！他都沒有講啊！從發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討、也沒有精進的作為，現在他的精進作為都是管理業者如何如何，卻都沒說自己未來要做什麼。你讓食安五環破功、讓溯源追蹤系統制度徒法不足以自行，你以為建立登錄制度就沒有食安問題了嗎？業者胡亂登錄，你都沒管理、也沒稽核，這個問題要如何解決啊？你要講啊？"],["主席：衛福部要提出檢討報告，針對林委員的部分……"],["林委員淑芬：要講啊！不要這樣捱到520，大家都要下台了，所以忍一下就算了吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：看起來好像是這樣，署長好像就是這樣，520過了之後就沒事、沒她的事啦！"],["主席：謝謝林委員，請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分再提出檢討報告，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請盧縣一委員進行質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.19846875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.67784375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.99846875,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.69346875,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.49971875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.92846875,"end":201.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.90659375,"end":237.54659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.10346875000002,"end":242.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.28409375,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.46471875,"end":252.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.21096875,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.93596875000003,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.62346875000003,"end":258.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.98971875,"end":283.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.68909375000004,"end":273.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.51846875,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.88846875,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.90096875,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.72284375000004,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.35034375000004,"end":307.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.33721875000003,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.26096875,"end":318.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.56346875,"end":321.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.87534375,"end":325.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.52909375,"end":324.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.50346875,"end":326.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.39346875,"end":329.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.97096875,"end":350.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.75659375000004,"end":360.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.00846875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.32909375,"end":363.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.18534375,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.75409375000004,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.33596875,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.24159375000005,"end":380.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.35971875,"end":380.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.99659375000005,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.03409375,"end":390.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.04596875000004,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.07971875000004,"end":390.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.09659375,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.03721875,"end":397.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.83409375,"end":442.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.12909375000004,"end":398.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.21346875,"end":398.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.67909375000005,"end":456.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.57971875000004,"end":459.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.56659375000004,"end":464.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.66284375000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t":"所以這個通報很重要那你上個禮拜你跟我講說這個食品中毒也必須要兩人或兩人以上攝取相同的食品而發生相似的症狀嗎但是事實上你們食藥署在規定你們衛福部在規定所謂的食品中毒還有後半段"},{"start":169.269,"end":189.604,"text":"後半段是因為涉食食品造成極性的食品中毒不管它是化學的或是天然的毒素中毒即便只有一個人也視為一件食品中毒事件但通報通報是一回事啊那這種非社區型的餐飲場所的食品中毒通報恐怕沒有辦法更多人知道這個訊息進來"},{"start":191.025,"end":216.742,"text":"所以整個制度面要怎麼樣讓未來每一個在這種非社區型的非典型的食品中毒裡面如果受害了或者是有症狀了可以在大家在通報以外還可以連結在一起找出正確的對症然後治療這很重要啊可是你們根本沒有精進的作業你們還沒有精進的措施你們說你們精進你怎麼都沒都沒有啊"},{"start":219.864,"end":234.971,"text":"對於整個制度我上禮拜就跟你們說有沒有可以再檢討的地方難道一點問題都沒有嗎?看你們今天的報告是你們不覺得有問題你們也不覺得制度有問題也沒有覺得執行面有問題你們還節於寫的跟3月4號的報告一模一樣這不是在呼嚨立法院嗎?難怪人家講藐視國會啊"},{"start":243.285,"end":244.045,"text":"我們還是需要再建立一個補充的機制"},{"start":270.957,"end":296.716,"text":"對啦,要建立一個補充的機制雖然個案數少,但是嚴重度高的那這一種的通報的話也許後面的處理方式會不一樣通報還不是這樣,3月23給你們通報通報跟大家,大家都沒有來通報因為新聞沒有露出嘛我們是後來3月26一死一重症露出以後大家才瞬間湧入"},{"start":298.657,"end":317.224,"text":"那個是老實講也有媒體的效應的問題但是我們現在要去處理就是因為一個案子進來的時候其他醫院並不知道所以未來這個部分都要去做處理如果說他有嚴重的比方說死亡的個案的時候怎麼樣"},{"start":318.644,"end":328.267,"text":"就讓醫院知道說,類似的．對啊,所以製度面,連製度面都有檢討,值得檢討的地方啊可是你們食藥署,寫的這個報告能看嗎?那我們現在講說,成功的預判,你們的結論講我們更精進的政策,我們要發揮成功的預判這都說過了,他怎麼有成功預判過?"},{"start":340.092,"end":349.871,"text":"連使用的既有的系統和制度都發生問題然後也不承認問題那我現在在問你保定未來的米酵菌酸是不是會列入食品的常規檢驗裡面"},{"start":352.49,"end":369.424,"text":"這個還是要再看我們這一次調查的結果是怎樣因為老實講它怎麼樣發生的到目前你還不知道所以你要去說但我們知道如果也有個案的話米肖峻山的個案的話都是非常重大的傷亡重症或死亡很嚴重"},{"start":370.505,"end":385.052,"text":"所以到底現在如果是在操作的哪一個環節才會進行米蝦菌栓這目前是我們在調查的一個重點啦好啦單調張出來現在看說要不要列入常規的檢驗項目啦"},{"start":386.533,"end":387.593,"text":"你回去好好想一下啦但我今天還是要講土法不足以自刑"},{"start":402.778,"end":427.863,"text":"這個業者自律我們都看到屢屢破功而且不可行而且絕對不能只仰賴業者自律你不能讓民眾去吃飯都是用生命在拔在拔、在堵啊堵生命在吃飯啊你知道現在在家自己煮飯的比例有多低嗎都是外食大家用生命去吃飯要堵堵這個運氣這是不行的讓我們要求說那至少大家都會確認說食安法第13條第1項裡面要公告的就應投"},{"start":431.264,"end":439.21,"text":"食品責任險現在就食品製造業然後輸出輸入業還有餐飲業者通通要產品責任險嘛可是呢我們看到沒有機車強制險人家有1300多萬輛機車欸只要沒有投保馬上勾起出來告訴你你沒有投保我要開罰了你趕快去加保食品業食品製造業都中了多少金啊給你43萬45萬"},{"start":460.686,"end":464.47,"text":"我現在告訴你沒關係食品製造輸入經營一百萬一百萬啦汽車要強制顯示一千三百萬輛的車子他都可以管理了"},{"start":483.067,"end":485.61,"text":"這次的寶林茶室他沒有投保責任權如果沒有大時代如果沒有大原百"},{"start":500.288,"end":519.775,"text":"事實上這些傷亡其實是重症的是沒有辦法接住他們了所以怎麼可以怎麼可以不被接住 不可以用死命打暈了但我比較慢的打到 還沒保險怎麼辦絕對要每一個每一時每一刻通通都是在有責任險的狀態裡面那我現在問你 這個我們請食藥署提供的啦"},{"start":525.537,"end":539.426,"text":"請食藥署提供這五年裡面2019到2023年各個縣市沒有投保產品責任權開罰的件數這五年裡面你們食藥署提供的數字有沒有辦法放大"},{"start":541.659,"end":567.991,"text":"這五年裡面,食藥署提供的,我不曉得正不正確,如果他對我們虛偽偽、亂說話,我也沒辦法啦。這個不在上面的是沒有零,是零,沒有開罰的紀錄。這個裡面一共全部162件,光是台南市政府就佔了九成以上。其他各縣市,我現在要問的是,是沒有在查還是查不到?"},{"start":569.633,"end":570.094,"text":"你覺得這個數字反映是什麼意思?反映了什麼?"},{"start":588.566,"end":599.194,"text":"報告委員 因為我們這一條的規定業者他其實也可以限改所以如果去查的時候看他沒有保那地方政府會要求他你看 很好 你看我們都沒報一年沒報 兩年沒報 查到叫你馬上限期改善經濟保險而已未開罰 大家也敢沒報開罰對3萬到3百萬大家最低開罰3萬7條 我們都知道"},{"start":617.148,"end":632.063,"text":"所以你這樣子還可以限期改善所以都沒有開罰數字就是這個意思我們在法律上雖然有規定但在執行面大家都輕輕放下叫他趕快去保險就好了照署長的講法"},{"start":636.877,"end":651.262,"text":"我們現在問說中央主管機關你要督導地方縣政府稽查以外、人力配置以外、中央法規要落實法規的這個規定啊阿拉伯都可以限期改善大家可以一年、兩年沒保險錢蓋起來捏到還不會出發這樣對不對"},{"start":657.261,"end":658.502,"text":"衛生福利部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長．"},{"start":687.621,"end":695.369,"text":"你們這份報告裡面有寫嗎?沒有!立法院大致跟你們解釋,你們才要說我現在還懷疑這裡的案件,看得出是中央政府沒在查嗎?還是中央政府沒在跟中央政府聯繫?跟地方政府聯繫,所以沒有聯繫,所以不知道"},{"start":707.885,"end":732.48,"text":"這應該就是有去查的啦不是啦地方政府看起來有去查零件、零件、零件、零件、一件那其他沒有的很多縣市政府是零件喔通通都合格喔這是地方政府沒在查還是中央政府沒在跟地方政府聯繫你看這個台北市台北市一共112年兩件121年一件"},{"start":736.542,"end":756.171,"text":"109年一件但是我自己去Google台北市政府查到的好像不是這樣你看台南市政府很多你看高雄全部是零沒有查到是沒有查到還是沒有再查我就不知道還是說中央政府跟地方政府沒有再聯繫提供給立委的數字是不真實的"},{"start":757.806,"end":785.293,"text":"因為這個稽查的加次跟合格的加次這個我們資料都有所以事實上所呈現出來的這個不合格的加次應該是沒有問題來教你這樣講地方政府你們跟他取得的數據是一樣的而且是真實的證明全台灣所有的食品製造業所有的餐飲業者都有投保這個責任銜產品責任銜完全都沒有問題囉"},{"start":787.013,"end":799.279,"text":"如果照那樣子的話一百...如果這樣子台北市的一百一十二年的應該就不會有寶林茶室了或是應該就一件是寶林茶室了"},{"start":800.909,"end":820.547,"text":"這個我是有點懷疑啦,好沒關係,我再問問你喔,保證,我們現在看到說臺北市政府就針對轄區內37家保護公司跟大賣場、美食街稽查,然後查核這個風險啦齁,那各縣市的稽查是只有臺北市在進行,還是各地方政府都在進行?"},{"start":821.823,"end":842.073,"text":"目前我們知道是臺北市比較積極在做阿那為什麼不要利用這個經驗以這個經驗要求全國全面性的清除了查一遍百貨公司各縣市東東都有百貨公司的風險都一樣嗎阿現在我看到剛剛看到新聞桃園只查異國料理只有異國料理有問題嗎我覺得這樣子講是不是也"},{"start":846.195,"end":854.805,"text":"也有一點點怪怪的那我現在在跟你講這個我一直講土法不足以自行你們今天講這麼三大主題的檢討和策進行為光是蘇丹紅好了蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":861.873,"end":889.779,"text":"蘇丹紅事件我們來看一下查到登錄不實因為你們的檢討報告還有因應的對策很多但是說來說去就是沒有對自己的檢討你們都只有對業者的檢討對自己的檢討就是你們的食安五環你們的溯源追蹤系統人家登載不實或是要應登而未登你們都沒有在管"},{"start":891.019,"end":905.112,"text":"您的報告也沒寫,您都沒在管要怎麼處理?有啦,這個報分有啦,未來對於這些邊境的管理的不尊重沒有啦,我覺得你對這個委員會對立法院很不尊重耶"},{"start":906.175,"end":922.846,"text":"我在質詢的時候就跟你講了你們現在被禁的21家的中國中國這個辣椒粉產品輸入的廠商我們講過Kevin Shipp是傳物公司根本不是食品公司你們現在還繼續給我們這種假的你現在把自己這麼說的假這個"},{"start":930.53,"end":957.644,"text":"這個貨源來自於Kevin Shipper這件事你還在這裡跟我們報告這間公司給我們禁掉啊這間就不是食品製造商輸出商這間是傳物公司啊輸入商我們已經禁掉啊輸入商你今天在立法院跟我們報告還跟傳物公司說禁掉不是不是傳物公司你趕緊下來嘛你們的製造商還有一間Kevin Shipping第13頁"},{"start":960.246,"end":968.342,"text":"你連這個都不願意更改你再提供給立委的資料還是這樣子一字不改"},{"start":973.586,"end":974.727,"text":"這個登錄不實啊,你平時要怎麼集合?不要講說出事了才來抓,你要發揮預警預判的功能"},{"start":995.506,"end":999.769,"text":"兩監察院有共第一個應登錄的廠商就已經夠少了四十幾萬家廠商你這登錄一萬家然後登錄了這麼少的量裡面呢他胡說八道亂填亂登你也沒有再集合這要怎麼處理這個才叫應檢討和策進的作為是什麼你都沒有寫烈食藥署現在還用這種"},{"start":1022.119,"end":1036.589,"text":"不實的數據來呼嚨全立法院的立委有啊,開發食品就不是廠商,就不是食品輸出廠商啊你現在大聲一點跟我們說,這真的是睜著眼說瞎話,指鹿為馬你說喔,嚇死人跟我們說就就這間,你不去調查嚇死人很嚇死你"},{"start":1046.776,"end":1050.058,"text":"因為我們當時在系統裡面的話就是輸入啊我問你啦追溯追蹤系統亂登啦登載不實啦除了發生重大事件被你們查出來還不是你們查出來被立委"},{"start":1063.71,"end":1075.297,"text":"我們幫你查的啦被立委查出來了你們才要處罰以外你們才要重懲然後回頭去看他登錄不實然後嚴懲以外請海順你都沒出分啊海順你這台電也沒出分啊也登錄不實啊那平常登錄不實你要怎麼勾結啊你要怎麼集合啊"},{"start":1086.867,"end":1088.57,"text":"你不要說大家出問題你就會中場啦沒出問題你要怎麼處理、要怎麼精進、檢討"},{"start":1095.029,"end":1120.824,"text":"好 林委員因為時間的關係請那個衛福部長對阿 她都沒有講阿從一發生到現在都沒有任何的檢討也沒有精進的作為她現在精進的作為都管理業者安裝安裝安裝她都沒說我自己未來要做什麼你未來你做你讓食安五環破工讓溯源追蹤系統這個制度土法不足以自行你就是建立登陸制度就沒有食安問題了嗎"},{"start":1122.285,"end":1123.426,"text":"請衛福部針對林委員剛剛提出來的部分要再提檢討報告"}]}},{"id":"150759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0208f78058ef16e630ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6fbd852016b6b286a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:22:58 - 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有請主委主委好 針對我們今天的環島高速鐵路的建設"},{"start":28.524,"end":55.623,"text":"交通部長、王部長2021年11月曾說過拋出環島高鐵不是夢的構想當時行政院院長、蘇院長也很鼓勵針對我們環島高鐵的構想部長當時認為因為宜蘭高鐵選址上的問題特別提出環島高鐵的構想認為選址如果沒有後續延伸的可能性彈性會大打折扣無論是宜蘭站還是屏東站"},{"start":58.144,"end":61.547,"text":"環島高鐵應該用公共運輸的角度來看,特別是花東的路廊有限,是否應該思考對環島高鐵可以以公共運輸為優先的選項?"},{"start":83.683,"end":100.084,"text":"在過去我們在提到這個環島高鐵在這件事情之前我們認為這個高鐵推動應該要分段來逐步推動在這個逐步推動同時我們同時另外建立這個東部是快鐵的方向這快鐵的方向就是透過"},{"start":100.725,"end":104.468,"text":"市長您提到快鐵那目前高鐵和台鐵的整合要如何依據不同地區然後還有它的"},{"start":127.483,"end":147.54,"text":"市長的特性,那給予成績與北中南東區之間的更快捷變數的運輸服務目前來講我們在高鐵的部分透過剛剛談到的宜蘭跟屏東的延伸之外然後我們原來是希望說在屏東接下來經過台東、花蓮、宜蘭"},{"start":152.664,"end":177.194,"text":"這部分我們花的主要的這個相關工程就是在做花東的這個主要鐵路的這個雙軌化雙軌化能夠讓鐵路的這個台鐵的運量能夠提升之外然後也藉由未來新引進的這個比較高的高速的車輛來說短這個時間目前是現在我們建立方向是這樣子"},{"start":178.03,"end":181.053,"text":"國發會在109年7月13日通過國家發展計畫110年到113年並經行政院在7月16日會議討論通過其中一項政策主軸是營造全鄰"},{"start":196.167,"end":205.132,"text":"請問主委解決青年低薪與投資青年的部分那至今臺灣青年低薪的現象還是沒有改善低薪的問題那有何檢討那如何跨部會的共同解決青年低薪的問題"},{"start":218.707,"end":234.222,"text":"報告委員,雖然就是還沒有盡如人意,但是已經有階段性改善,現在大概大學畢業生的起薪也平均來講大概都超過3萬塊,當然大家還希望可以更好啦,那所以...因為您提到超過3萬塊,那至今物價通膨?"},{"start":237.571,"end":241.754,"text":"年輕人主要還是說他能力上的提升還有他這個學用"},{"start":254.884,"end":255.124,"text":"執行部委員長"},{"start":276.159,"end":276.319,"text":"執行委員長"},{"start":294.446,"end":295.047,"text":"主政單位經濟部"},{"start":316.545,"end":329.005,"text":"人力工級的部分是學校的部分是教育部還有一些訓練單位我們國防會是有參與相關的一些協調整合的一些工作大概有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":331.918,"end":357.717,"text":"提出有關少子化的研究報告,還有解決少子化的對策。近來,劣童案讓各界的檢討聲浪不斷。去年8月,立法院預算中心一份報告也有指出,選舉前對應誘餌、托育、資源、帶積極部件,還有提升品質。現行的場地規劃和選擇恐難以貼合。育兒資源帶加強,請問過去三年半"},{"start":358.678,"end":359.339,"text":"的執行還有檢討狀況。"},{"start":378.314,"end":406.568,"text":"阿怎麼樣做法會更好那行政院下面也有一個少子化的推動的平台林政委在做這個就是召集那有任何如果需要做政策上的調整我想行政院也會尋這個平台再做一些確認那國發會當然也有參與這樣的平台的工作所以也有做一些相關性的一些研究了那也把這些研究事實上提供給這個平台來做一些政策上依據的參考"},{"start":407.611,"end":408.312,"text":"請主委提供書面資料"}]}},{"id":"150758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08140c33fe29a859f9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a62153524cdbbb34395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:16:37 - 11:27:54","影片長度":"00:11:17","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":677,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:27:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:16:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時16分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請立法院周秘書長、司法院黃副秘書長以及法務部陳次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、副秘書長，還有次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，副秘書長好，次長好。"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先請教秘書長，我們今天談國會改革，我的標題寫得很清楚，健全國會非擴權，我們是健全沒有擴權，要健全國會的調查權，你同意嗎？這不是擴權嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是我們是健全不是擴權，但可不可以濫權？可不可以濫權？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可以濫權。什麼情況會濫權？權責不符就容易濫權。好，再來，你認不認為國會權是監督行政權的，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們是監督官員嘛，是不是？但是行政官員是不是只有國會可以監督，監察院可不可以監督？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個都各有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你嘛，監察院可不可以監督官員？"],["周秘書長萬來：它是一個事後的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以監督官員是國會的天職，但不是只有國會可以監督，還包括監察權，也包括司法權，所以我們不能越權，你同不同意？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們也在報告裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有寫喔？對，很好。"],["周秘書長萬來：對這個部分有比較。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但我們是監督官員，請問國會是用來監督人民的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為行使調查權的話，因為有聽證的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是不是來監督人民的？國會是不是來監督人民的？"],["周秘書長萬來：國會不是監督人民的，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，很好，所以我們不能侵犯人權，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：基本人權我們當然要保護。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不能侵犯。好，那我接下來問三位一個問題，權力分立跟權責分際，今天報紙的頭條有本院財政委員會召委要求保險局邀壽險公司老闆餐敘，而且還只限定藍白的委員可以參加，民進黨的不能來喔，請問一下副秘書長，你覺得這個有什麼爭議？副秘書長，你認為這有什麼爭議？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然我看媒體上面是寫說權限，那當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是什麼爭議？爭議在哪裡？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那到底適合不適合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為適不適合？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們站在司法行政的角度，可能就這問題，我個人覺得不適合表達意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我再問次長，你認為如果說有人是球員，有人是裁判，假設金管會是裁判，他負責監督壽險業者，壽險業者是球員，是不是這樣？"],["陳次長明堂：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那球員可不可以兼裁判？"],["陳次長明堂：不宜。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不宜嘛，好。那假設某個大腕邀請了裁判、邀請了球員一起私下聚餐，你覺得看在球迷眼中，他們要幹什麼事情？"],["陳次長明堂：基本上是這樣，應該在整個行政或是包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你我剛才假設的狀況，如果有個大腕，他邀了球員跟裁判私下聚餐，討論明天的事情，你覺得看在球迷的眼中，他們在幹嘛？"],["陳次長明堂：這中間是不是有作弊或什麼樣的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，會不會要簽賭，是不是這樣子？"],["陳次長明堂：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看看這一位委員，我過去也在財政委員會當過召委，我也當過教育委員會的召委，如果不是財政委員會，我當教育委員會的召委，有時候我會請教育委員會管的部會主管跟委員們聯絡感情，可不可以？你認為可不可以？"],["陳次長明堂：一般性的可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這位委員在去年選舉前，他辦了一個公聽會關心CFC，然後他請了官員來、請了業者來，底下還附上他個人的政治獻金專戶，你覺得他在暗示什麼？"],["陳次長明堂：這個會有各種不同的看法，對啦！沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們開公聽會需要附一個政治獻金專戶嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：這個應該在國會來講，我也不好批評，但是國會要自律。"],["鍾委員佳濱：自律，很好，你的分際也只能講到這裡。一個立委在院外，既有的職權都可以搞到這個程度了，你覺得社會放心給他調查權嗎？我們看下一頁，請問司法院副秘書長，法官可以私下約被告吃飯嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就法官的部分，當然是不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問次長，檢察官可以私下約當事人吃飯嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。請問秘書長，金管會為了維持金融秩序的穩定，監督金管會的人就叫立法委員，他要求金管會邀請壽險業者，有沒有濫權的問題？"],["周秘書長萬來：這要看他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼狀況，我就問你，請吃飯可不可以？有沒有瓜田李下之嫌？"],["周秘書長萬來：這位委員的情況我不太瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不太清楚？你再私下問委員。","請看下一頁，但是我們社會在擔心什麼？如果國會的聽證權能夠傳喚民間企業，他就有可能私設刑堂，立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎？請問秘書長，可不可以？現行法可不可以？我問你，秘書長，立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在現行法是沒有這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是國民黨楊瓊瓔版本第七十五條之二，傅總召的版本，姑且稱之為國民黨黨團版本，第四十八條第二項還加上刑法第一百四十一條之一，民眾如果不接受立法院的傳喚，他會吃上刑責，你有沒有看到這一條，有沒有？有嘛，條文有寫嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：條文裡面有這樣規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：縱使如此，我們看到民眾黨的版本，民眾黨把調查對象擴及到不只是行政機關或官員，擴及到一般人民，如果一般人民拒絕，還可以罰鍰。民進黨過去不是沒有這樣的思考，過去的版本，我們也曾經將調查的對象、課責的範圍擴及到非行政機關以外，但是由於涉及到行政，涉及到罰鍰，我們的版本有罰鍰，有對機關課以罰鍰的義務，但是我們的版本從來沒有要求把人民叫來，不聽就要罰款，甚至像傅委員傅總召的版本一樣要送刑法，有沒有？國民黨黨團版本有沒有要送刑法？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是委員自己的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：將民眾入罪啊！","我們看下一頁，如果立法委員對企業不滿，我開個公聽會，並附了我的政治獻金專戶帳號，你都沒有表示，我開公聽會傳喚企業來，可不可以公然在國會私設刑堂，用刑法入罪辦企業、辦人民，可不可以？你同意嗎？你接受嗎？這就是我們版本的最大差別！民進黨不是不想健全國會調查權，我們也放進了要求行政機關必須有出列席的義務，有提供文件調閱的義務，我們也加上了罰鍰，但是我們不會把人民當作我們調查的主體。","相較於擴權，社會更擔心的是立法委員濫權，立法院調查權有限制，要維持權力分立的原則，與憲法職權有關聯的可以，但是我們不能去侵犯其他憲政機關、最高機關憲法保障的職權，也不能影響政府運作的行政特權，立委可以濫用調查權來滿足個人利益嗎？請問次長，你覺得可以接受嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：應該不會，不應該這樣做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，應該不會，你說得很好，應該不會。但如果有委員會呢？今天我們看到國民黨的委員、國防委員會的召委，案件還在調查中，他在3月21日以召委身分，安排召開國安局機密會議，請問立委召開機密會議的目的幹嘛？目前因為調閱而取得的秘密，有沒有保密的義務？副秘書長，如果國會因調查而取得的秘密，你認為有沒有保密的義務？有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：看到相關的這些草案裡面，是有這個保密的義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有保密的義務，這也是民進黨的版本，要求國會要健全，要健全調查權，你要權責相符啊！你要負有保密的義務，你可不可以拿到機密資料之後馬上洩密？副秘書長，可不可以？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這些如果涉及到國家安全，或者是其他人的權益的話，當然要做權衡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周秘書長，您宣稱是我們韓院長特別把你重出江湖請來的，過去我在國民大會的時候，我們有一個吳萬得議事組主任，那時候您好像是比他高一屆還是低一屆，您是周萬來，議事的權威專家，兩邊都萬來萬去啊！一個萬得，一個萬來，我們都佩服你對議事的了解。但是你看一看目前這些版本，我個人認為有兩道紅線，各黨團要提版本，可以健全國會的調查權，但是這兩條紅線不能踩，第一，不得假借調查之名行洩密之實，你同不同意未來我們職權行使法的規範，可以調查，但要對洩密課以刑責？你同不同意？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，很好。那立法委員可不可以假借聽證之名行恐嚇之實？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這一個調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以把人民叫來，你不來我就罰款，說你虛偽不實，我把你送法辦？可以嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個第585號解釋，對於人民，一定是跟調查事項有相關的人民。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第585號有說，立法院行使職權為了調查所需，可以請人民來表示意見嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第585號有說可以把人民送去刑法、送去法院嗎？司法院副秘書長，有沒有？就你的了解，第585號可以這樣做嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第585號是在調查的時候可以詢問，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他可以詢問嘛！他要釐清，立法院行使調查權的時候，不會去侵犯司法院的司法審判……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那一部分，第585號是沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也不會侵犯監察院對官員事後的調查，是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第585號文字上面是這樣，但是真正的意旨，可能我們司法行政……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，你不是大法官，哪天你是大法官我們再來請教你。","秘書長，我們在這裡講得很清楚，請我們各黨團，國會要健全，但不是擴權，更不能濫權；我們國會要監督官員，不能越權，更不能侵犯人民的權利！謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請傅委員崐萁發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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副秘書長好 次長好先請教秘書長我們今天談國會改革我的標題寫得很清楚建權國會非擴權我們是建權沒有擴權要建權國會的調查權你同意嗎這不是擴權嗎對 但是我們建權我們不是擴權但可不可以濫權可不可以濫權"},{"start":62.722,"end":70.408,"text":"國會權是監督行政權的對不對?好那我們是監督官員嘛是不是?但是官員行政官員是不是只有國會可以監督?監察院可不可以監督?我是問你嘛監察院可不可以監督官員?"},{"start":90.464,"end":100.508,"text":"對,所以監督官員是國會的天職,但不是只有國會可以監督,包括監察權,包括司法權,所以我們不能越權,你同不同意?但是我們是監督官員,請問國會是用來監督人民的嗎?"},{"start":113.607,"end":118.949,"text":"國外不是監督人民所以我們不能侵犯人權你同意嗎對不能侵犯好那我接下來問三位一個問題來權力分立跟權責分際今天報紙的頭條有本院"},{"start":138.026,"end":166.684,"text":"財政委員昭偉要求保險局邀受險公司老闆參敘啊而且還指限定市南板的委員可以參加喔欸民進黨的不能來喔請問一下副秘書長你覺得這個什麼爭議副秘書長你認為這什麼爭議那個當然我看媒體上面是寫說權限啦那當然是什麼爭議爭議在哪裡那到底適合不適合你認為適不適合可能將來我也我們在司法行政可能就這問題"},{"start":167.963,"end":196.224,"text":"我再問你來市長你認為如果說我們說有人是球員有人是裁判假設金管會是裁判他來監督受險業者受險業者球員是不是這樣那球員可不可以兼裁判不宜嘛好那假設很多人某個大碗邀請了裁判邀請了球員一起私下聚餐你覺得看在球迷眼中他們要幹什麼事情"},{"start":197.452,"end":224.09,"text":"基本上這樣啦應該在整個行政或是包括我是問你我的狀況啊如果有個大碗他邀了球員邀了裁判私下聚餐討論明天的事情你覺得看在球迷的眼中他們在幹嘛中間是不是有作弊或什麼會不會要遷土啊是不是這樣子所以我們看看啊這一位委員啊我過去也在財政委員會我也當過召委我也當過教育委員會的召委"},{"start":225.017,"end":249.449,"text":"如果不是財政委會教育委員會會請教育委員會管的這些部會主管跟委員們聯絡感情可不可以你認為可不可以可以那這位委員他在去年選舉前他辦個公聽會關心CFC然後呢他請了官員來請了業者來底下還附上他個人的政治先進專務你覺得他在暗示什麼"},{"start":252.831,"end":277.757,"text":"我們開公聽會需要附一個政治先進專務嗎?這個應該在國會來講齁,我也不好批評,但是國會要有自律也行。自律,很好。你奉獻講到這。一個立委在院外既有的職權都可以搞到這個程度了,你覺得社會放心給他調查權嗎?我們看下一頁。請問司法院副廳,副秘書長。法官可以私下約被告吃飯嗎?"},{"start":278.786,"end":295.429,"text":"那就法官的部分當然是不行請問次長檢察官可以私下約當事人吃飯嗎?不可以好請問秘書長金管會為了維持金融秩序的穩定監督金管會的人就叫立法委員可以要求金管會邀請授權業者有沒有濫權的問題?這要看呢什麼狀況我就問你啊請吃飯可不可以啊有沒有掛天理下次錢?"},{"start":308.61,"end":328.617,"text":"你不太清楚你在私下問委員但是我們下一頁我們社會在擔心什麼如果國會的聽證權能夠傳喚民間企業他就有可能私設刑堂啊立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎請問秘書長可不可以現行法可不可以現行法可不可以我問你秘書長啊立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎"},{"start":337.882,"end":362.828,"text":"但是國民黨楊瓊瓔版本75條之二副總召的版本乎且針對國民黨黨團版本48條第二項還加上刑法第141條之一民眾如果不接受立法院的傳犯他會吃上刑責你有沒有看到有沒有看到這一條有沒有有嗎條文有寫嗎縱使如此我們看到民眾黨的"},{"start":364.195,"end":373.472,"text":"民眾黨呢他把他的調查的對象擴及到不只是行政機關或官員擴及到一般人民如果一般人民拒絕還可以罰還"},{"start":375.27,"end":404.671,"text":"民進黨不是過去沒有這樣的思考。過去的版本我們也曾經將調查的對象、苛責的範圍擴及到非行政機關以外。但是由於涉及到行政、涉及到划環,我們的版本有罰環,有對機關刻意划環的義務。但是我們的版本從來沒有要求把人民叫來不聽、叫罰款,甚至像復原的版本一樣、附送的版本一樣要送刑法,有沒有?"},{"start":406.275,"end":430.152,"text":"國民黨黨團們有沒有有沒有要送刑法將民眾入罪啊我們看下一頁如果立法委員對企業不滿我開個公聽會我附了我的政治獻金專號你都沒有表示我開公聽會傳案企業來可不可以在公然的國會施設刑堂用刑法入罪辦企業辦人民可不可以你同意嗎你接受嗎"},{"start":436.935,"end":455.968,"text":"這就是我們版本最大的差別民進黨不是不想健全國會調查權我們也放盡了要求必須行政機關有出列席的義務有提供文件調閱的義務我們也加上了罰款但是我們不會把人民當作我們調查的主體下一頁"},{"start":457.639,"end":481.605,"text":"比較擴權社會擔心的是立法院濫權。立法院調查權有限制要維持權力分立的原則。我們跟憲法職權有關的觀點可以。但是我們不能去侵犯其他憲政機關、最高機關、憲法保障的職權。也不能影響政府運作的行政特權。立委可以濫用調查權滿足個人利益嗎?請問次長你覺得可以接受嗎?"},{"start":483.05,"end":512.254,"text":"應該不會應該不會你說的很好應該不會下一頁但是五人一會了呢今天我們看到國民黨的委員國防委員會的召委案件還在調查中他在3月20日以召委身份安排召開國安局機密會議請問立委召開機密會議的目的幹嘛來我告訴你目前因為調閱而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務傅平書長你認為如果國會因調查而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務有沒有"},{"start":513.814,"end":538.914,"text":"看到相關的這些草案裡面是有這個要有保密的義務這也是民進黨的版本要求國會要健全你要健全你的調查權你要全責相輔啊你要負有保密的義務你可不可以拿到機密資料之後馬上洩密副秘書長可不可以可不可以這些如果涉及到一些國家安全或者是其他的人的權益的話當然這個要做權衡啦副秘書長周秘書長"},{"start":541.38,"end":568.955,"text":"您宣稱是我們韓院長特別把你重出江湖請來的過去我在國民大會的時候我們有一個吳萬德議事組主任您那時候您是比他好像高一屆還是第一屆您是周萬來議事的權威專家兩邊都萬來萬去啊一個萬德一個萬來我們都佩服你對議事的了解但是你看一看目前這些版本我個人認為有兩道紅線"},{"start":570.336,"end":588.96,"text":"各黨團要提版本可以健全國會的調查權但是這兩條紅線不能踩第一不得假借調查之名行洩密之時你同不同意未來我們職權行使法的規範可以調查但要對洩密刻以刑責你同不同意當然很好那立法委員可不可以假借聽證之名行恐惡之時"},{"start":598.763,"end":605.926,"text":"五八五有說可以立法院行使職權為了調查所需可以請人民來怎樣表示意見嘛五八五有說可以把人民送去刑法嗎送去法院嗎"},{"start":631.04,"end":644.35,"text":"五八五號可以這樣做嗎?五八五號是在調查的時候可以詢問他可以詢問嘛他要釐清立法院行使調查權的時候不會去侵犯司法院的司法"},{"start":644.991,"end":660.299,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":660.796,"end":674.95,"text":"我們在這裡講很清楚請我們各黨團國會要健全但不是擴全更不能濫權我們國會要監督官員不能越權更不能侵犯人民的權利謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c071b6d8c3653226a025a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a65e16c825a20c8d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:04:16 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11:14:50","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":634,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:14:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:04:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，真的是辛苦了，不過我想發生這個事情，大家的心情還是非常沉重，而且也希望能夠儘速得到改善。我們也知道，其實很多的檢驗標準品有時候從來沒有發生過，我們就很難去做好準備，那這一次真的非常感謝彰化基督教醫院的即時協助，因為幸好他們在早年有準備了這個標準品，讓我們在第一時間安定民心，讓我們知道透過這樣的即時檢驗，應該可以確定目前的確是米酵菌酸引起這次的重大事件，我們除了要特別感謝彰化基督教醫院以外，那未來在這個過程裡面我們如何能夠再做更多的準備，這部分也要麻煩大家來幫忙，就是由署裡面或者是部裡面來幫忙。","不過在這個不幸的事件裡面，很多的醫療機構一開始醫療人員好像也受到一點誤解，幸好後面很快就可以讓社會民眾還有這些病患家屬知道所有的醫療機構都是很用心地在照顧我們民眾的健康，像這種突發事件雖然我們不樂見，可是至少我們都善盡了醫療的責任。在今年也開始實施了醫療事故預防及爭議處理法，所以不管是事前對事故的預防，在事後的關懷、溝通跟爭議的調解，都很希望衛福部這邊能夠更主動地來協助，不管是在民眾端、社會端或醫療端都能夠得到更大的協助跟關懷，對這部分部長將來能不能夠以這樣的態度跟方式來處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前這個醫療事故預防及爭議處理法已經開始上路了，有關這一類的爭議，我們就會有一個比較和緩、分階段的處理機制，不管是醫病雙方的哪一方，都減低他們的一些負擔，這是這個法的一個重點。","但是今天的這個案子是一個食物中毒的案子，然後變成說這一個被害人要去告醫院，這本來就是一個非常奇怪的行為，但是後來據我們瞭解，當事人有出來澄清了，根本沒有這回事，是媒體錯誤的報導，所以理論上來講，媒體有這樣的錯誤報導，應該出來跟社會道歉，因為這個會影響很大，對於醫療人員有傷害，以及是否會導致所謂的防衛性醫療而造成其他病人的損害，這些都是有可能的，所以我希望媒體如果有報導不實的話，應該要出來道歉澄清。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們也期待大家可以更包容，在追求事實的過程裡面有更好的可能性，我們也知道這個食安檢驗基金是未來可以提供標準品統一採購的可能性，那這一部分不知道目前有沒有進度？"],["薛部長瑞元：所謂的食安檢驗基金要如何用、怎麼樣來用、錢從哪邊來，這個都還在規劃當中，初步是可能從食安基金的部分來增加它的用途，朝這個方向去走，但是實際上要怎麼樣來使用，它的程序怎麼樣，是否也包括標準品的統一採購，這個都還需要再進一步討論。"],["王委員正旭：OK，我們很期待能夠儘速，因為我們知道，其實在我們鄰近的國家曾經發生過一些食安問題或者是中毒問題，也許我們臺灣以前都非常好、都沒有發生過，所以我們就不會去準備這些標準品，那如果鄰近國家也曾經有發生過的話，我們基本上希望能夠儘快的把這些標準品能夠準備好，在有任何問題的時候我們就可以啟動相關的實驗。"],["薛部長瑞元：我要跟委員報告，對標準品的準備是沒有極限的，現在食藥署有七千多個標準品在，等於說在型錄裡面大概有兩萬多個，但還是有可能不足。那什麼樣需要去準備標準品，這個不是像打電動一樣，只要按下去就跑出來了，有些標準品是你要去訂了，然後才會開始製造，國際的這些廠商也沒有配好好的等著要賣你，因為太少用的就是這個樣子，所以這個是有一點點複雜的問題，但是如果經常可以用得到的話，我們大概都已經準備了。"],["王委員正旭：好，瞭解。因為在疫情以後，事實上全球流通越來越頻繁，如果鄰近國家曾經有一些可能或者曾經發生過的部分，我們就儘量來準備。"],["薛部長瑞元：對、對、對。"],["王委員正旭：這部分就麻煩部裡面努力來處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：儘量來……"],["王委員正旭：發生了這些中毒的物質以及這些食品的判斷標準一直都會讓民眾感到困惑，包括這次小林製藥的紅麴到底是什麼樣的菌、什麼樣的毒素，或者有其他相關的可能性也好，或者是米酵菌酸到底……這個對民眾教育來講其實剛好就是一個機會教育，讓民眾對於他的生活、他的飲食可以更為瞭解，對於以前我們所學習到的這些微生物對人體的影響、致病菌的問題，這個部分也麻煩部裡面、署裡面可以有更多的民眾教育來加強這方面，讓民眾對於自己身體健康安全的瞭解。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分其實從最近這兩件，包括小林紅麴事件到現在還不知道到底是什麼東西引起的，然後到寶林茶室的米酵菌酸，這也是我們第一次接觸到的，我們都可以看得到食安的問題是在演變當中，未來可能會有很多過去從來沒有碰到的這種問題會跑出來，這個就跟傳染病、新興傳染病一樣，過去沒有的這些微生物，現在都逐漸的……也許氣候變遷還是怎麼樣等等的關係就逐漸跑出來，再加上國際間頻繁的交流，所以老實講這個有它的共同點，也就是說我們在預防上是越來越困難，但是我們必須建立我們的韌性，重點是一旦有這種新興的案件出來的話，能夠很迅速的去發現它的原因然後去做處理，才能夠以後有這種預防的措施出來。"],["王委員正旭：是，的確，我想民眾透過這次整個慘痛的過程也會知道到底未來要注意什麼事情。不過，我們看到在網頁上有細菌性食品中毒相關的一些說明，不知道這次米酵菌酸的說明已經登錄上去了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在正在簽，我們會把它加進來。"],["王委員正旭：OK，這個應該儘速，因為都已經經過一、兩個禮拜，相信大家很清楚，對於將來的醫療機構要做判定也好或對民眾來講應該都是一個非常重要的訊息。","我們真的很希望民眾不要恐慌，因為在政府把關之下，一開始會有一些狀況，不過相對來講，透過這樣的過程民眾也應該要有好的、正確的判斷，避免自己的生活陷入一個恐慌當中，這個當然是很希望大家共同來努力，食安問題政府應該可以更主動地來做一些部分的加強，比如說以小林製藥紅麴事件來看的話，我們在3月27號的時候，國內預防性下架有121件，可是到了3月29號，即兩天以後就增加到兩百多件。意思就是說，除了我們讓業者能夠主動地通報下架以外，其實我們主管機關這邊應該主動聯繫業者下架，就變成是一個雙向。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，其實我們一開始就主動聯繫進口提供的這些下游廠商，他們所做製造出來的產品我們就主動通知他們下架，現在還在把這個產品再分給其他廠商做出更次級產品的部分，就由這個廠商主動來通報。"],["王委員正旭：好。最後，如果我們要讓食安五環政策執行能夠更有效的話，真的是大家要一起努力，麻煩你們可以更用心，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的質詢，等一下盧縣一委員質詢完畢，我們處理臨時提案。","現在請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.054718750000003,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.92846875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.48096875,"end":57.861593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.570343750000006,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.01596875,"end":100.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.20096875,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.47096875000001,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.42346875,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.84096875,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.19096875000002,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.95409375,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.32471875000002,"end":174.55221875},{"speaker":"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這個基督教彰化基督教醫院的即時協助因為幸好他們在早年有準備了這個標準品讓我們在第一時間安定民心讓我們知道透過這樣的即時的檢驗可以確定"},{"start":59.03,"end":80.905,"text":"應該是可以確定目前這個米酵菌酸的確是引起這次重大事件的一個影響那這部分除了我們要特別感謝這個彰化基督教育院以外那未來在這個過程裡面我們如何能夠再做更多的準備這部分也要麻煩大家來幫忙或者是署裡面或者是部裡面來幫忙"},{"start":81.886,"end":107.639,"text":"那不過在這個不幸的事件裡面很多的醫療機構啊一開始醫療人員好像也受到一點誤解那幸好後面很快就可以讓社會民眾還有這些病患家屬知道所有的醫療機構都是很用心的在照顧我們民眾的健康這種突發事件雖然我們不樂見可是至少我們都善盡了這些醫療的責任那今年也開始實施了這個"},{"start":108.779,"end":133.18,"text":"醫療事故預防跟正義的處理法所以不管事前的這個事故的預防事後的這些關懷溝通跟正義的調解都很希望衛福部這邊能夠更主動的來協助不管是在民眾端、社會端或是醫療端都能夠得到更大的協助跟關懷那這部分部長將來能不能夠以這樣的態度跟方式來處理"},{"start":135.105,"end":150.176,"text":"目前醫療事故爭議的預防及處理法已經開始上路了有關這一類的爭議的話我們就會有一個比較和緩的分階段處理的一些機制"},{"start":150.996,"end":170.854,"text":"讓他減低不管是醫病雙方哪一方他的一些負擔這個是這個法的一個重點但是以今天的這個案子有一個食物中毒的案子"},{"start":172.595,"end":196.069,"text":"變成說這一個被害人要去告醫院這本來就是一個非常奇怪的一個行為但是後來我們的了解當事人也出來澄清了根本沒這回事是媒體的錯誤的報導所以理論上來講媒體有這樣錯誤報導應該出來道歉跟社會道歉因為這個會影響很大"},{"start":198.19,"end":217.241,"text":"對於醫療人員的傷害以及是否會造成所謂的防衛性醫療造成對其他病人的損害這個都有可能的所以我是希望說媒體如果說報導不實的話應該出來道歉澄清"},{"start":218.101,"end":235.577,"text":"我們也期待大家可以更用包容可是在追求事實的過程裡面有更好的這個可能性那我們也知道這個食品檢驗基金是未來可以提供這個標準品統一採購的可能性那這部分不知道目前有沒有進度"},{"start":237.238,"end":258.424,"text":"所謂的食安檢驗基金的如何用、怎麼樣來用、錢從哪邊來這個都還在規劃當中那初步的話是可能從食安基金的部分來增加它的用途這個方向去走但是實際上要怎麼樣來"},{"start":259.844,"end":259.864,"text":"臺灣菸酒"},{"start":280.669,"end":307.89,"text":"以前都非常好都沒有發生過所以我們就不會去準備這些標準品那如果臨近國家也曾經有發生過的話我們基本上希望能夠盡快的把這些標準品能夠準備好但有任何問題的時候我們就可以啟動相關的宣言我跟各位報告這一個標準品的準備那是沒有極限的以現在食藥署有7000多個標準品在"},{"start":310.37,"end":330.253,"text":"他的那個等於說行路裡面大概2萬多個啦但是那個還是有可能不足那什麼樣需要去準備標準品這個不是像說在打電動這樣把你擠下去你就造出來不是這樣因為有一些標準品的話你要去訂了他才會開始製造"},{"start":332.094,"end":347.202,"text":"國際的這些廠商他也沒有配合好大單要賣離的因為太少用的就是這個樣子所以這個是有一點點複雜的問題但是如果經常可以用得到的話我們大概都已經準備了"},{"start":348.543,"end":364.251,"text":"了解因為現在全球流通疫情以後事實上是越來越頻繁那如果鄰近國家曾經有一些可能或者曾經發生過的部分我們就盡量來準備這部分就麻煩部裡面可以努力的來處理"},{"start":365.592,"end":381.989,"text":"那到底發生的這些中毒的物質啊或者是這些食品的判斷標準一直都是會讓民眾迷惑包括說這次的小林製藥的紅麴那到底是什麼樣的菌那是什麼樣的毒素"},{"start":382.629,"end":402.123,"text":"或者是有其他的相關的可能性也好或者是米酵菌栓到底很多這個對民眾教育來講其實剛好這是一個機會教育讓民眾對於他的生活在他飲食可以更為了解那對於以前我們所學習到的這些微生物對人體的影響"},{"start":402.984,"end":430.637,"text":"致病菌的問題這個部分也麻煩部裡面署裡面可以有更多的民眾教育來加強這方面讓民眾對於自己身體健康的安全的了解這部分的話其實從最近這兩件包括小林紅麴的這一個到現在還不知道到底是什麼東西引起來的到寶林茶室的這一個米酵菌酸這也是我們第一次接觸到的"},{"start":431.818,"end":445.954,"text":"我們都可以看得到這食安的問題是在演變當中有很多可能未來會有很多這種過去從來沒有碰到的會跑出來這種問題會跑出來那這個就跟傳染病新興傳染病一樣"},{"start":450.999,"end":476.619,"text":"過去沒有的這些微生物現在又逐漸的也許氣候變遷還是怎麼樣等等的關係就逐漸跑出來再加上國際間的一個平衡的交流所以老實講這個有它的共同點也就是說我們越來在預防上面是越來越困難但是我們必須要建立我們的韌性"},{"start":478.584,"end":493.795,"text":"重點是一旦有這種新興的案件出來的話能夠很迅速的去發現它的原因然後去做處理才能夠說以後有這種預防的措施出來"},{"start":494.375,"end":513.487,"text":"是的確我想民眾透過這次的整個慘痛的過程也會知道到底未來要注意什麼事情不過我們看到這個在網頁上有細菌性食品中毒相關的一些說明那不知道這次米酵菌栓的說明已經登錄上去了嗎"},{"start":515.881,"end":536.415,"text":"我們現在正在簽我們會把它加進來OK 這個應該盡速了因為都已經經過一兩個禮拜相信大家很清楚那對於將來的醫療機構要做判定也好對民眾來講應該都是非常重要的一個訊息那我們真的很希望民眾不要恐慌"},{"start":537.596,"end":562.484,"text":"因為政府把關之下其實一開始會有一些狀況不過相對來講透過這樣的這些過程民眾也應該要有好的正確的判斷避免自己的生活陷入一個恐慌當中那這個當然是很希望大家共同來努力那食安問題政府應該可以更主動的來做一些部分的加強比如說以小林這個製藥紅麴事件來看的話我們在"},{"start":568.645,"end":586.349,"text":"3月27號的時候是有國內預防性下架121件可是到了3月29號兩天以後就增加到200多件意思就是說除了我們讓業者能夠主動的通報下架以外其實我們主管機關這邊應該主動的聯繫業者下架這變成是一個雙向"},{"start":590.33,"end":612.696,"text":"其實我們一開始就主動聯繫進口提供的這些下游廠商他們所製造出來的產品我們就主動通知他們下架那現在是還在把這個產品再分給其他的廠商做出來更刺激的產品的這部分的話"},{"start":613.536,"end":613.816,"text":"王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"150756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07006c7f1c05cc5b4f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6e9b408045bd7e4355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:10:58 - 11:20:51","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":593,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:20:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:10:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時11分）召委，請原民會主委。"],["主席：請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，針對我們今天所排的議程，本席比較關心的就是海保法的審查，有的族人對海保法還不是很清楚，我們的高金召委也非常重視，尤其原住民的權益，在審查之前，我們也要再辦公聽會，我也請主委在公聽會上要多跟族人做宣導與溝通，我們近期就會排了嘛！主委這邊有什麼說法？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：針對海洋保育法的修法，關於原住民的部分，我們會做很明確的主張跟建議，讓整個海保法也兼顧到原住民傳統的漁撈文化跟傳統海域的權利。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，原住民的權益我們一定要保障，本席在內政委員會，我對原住民都是非常注重，所以我過去曾經爭取不管原住民的經費也好，原住民的權益、原住民的教育，我都是極力來推動，我之前爭取三鶯部落1,438萬的經費設置一個聚會所，還有無線網路的建置，在疫情期間，因為很多原住民朋友沒辦法到外面，所以透過無線網路的建置，本席比較關心的，整體前瞻工程在109年10月完工，距離已經5年左右，目前執行的成效為何？請主委說明。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告最新的進度，關於無線寬頻提供當地居民使用的部分，我們在109年7月28號就已經完成了，包括委員一直關心的部落聚會所比這個更早使用，所以目前這個設施都有充分的讓部落來做使用。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以在這幾年，原民會對原住民族人真的也是蠻照顧的，當初我們在推動三鶯部落，當時還遇到很多阻力，然後我們還是一一排除，現在整個部落，我們跟主委都有到現場去看，整個環境真的是一個……在北大特區附近，算是一個非常好的社區，這就是對原住民照顧的成效。","本席比較關心的就是原住民的實驗教育，從過去105年校數已經成長了八倍，補助經費高達了十四倍，總計有3億6,562萬，對原住民文化更加穩定的成長。本席這邊也要建議主委，在老師的遴選方面，因為有的是比較偏遠的地方，對師資這個部分，還是要鼓勵族人，由族人來教導，速度應該會比較快。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，這個部分我們會持續跟教育部，還有地方的教育局，怎麼樣讓原住民具有師資進用資格者，可以優先在原住民族實驗學校、原住民族地區的學校來擔任老師，這樣的話，對原住民的教育會有更大的幫助。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為要如何來鼓勵原住民，培育原住民師資的提升，這樣才有實質的幫助。","本席對於原住民語言組織補助，目前原住民推廣行銷保存，7年來挹注了2億6,275萬，每年編列還逐年增加，原住民語言考試報考人數及通過人數不但沒有提升，反而下降，那族語認證考試部分應該是怎樣來宣導、怎樣來宣傳？獎勵制度是不是能有個誘因讓原住民語言認證能夠來提升？主委，請你回答一下。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，人口減少那個部分應該是要這樣看數字，因為以前的族語認證是國中生才開始考，這幾年開放國小就開始考族語認證，所以國小已經考取族語認證初級，他到了國中就不用再報名了，所以會有減少的狀況。至於獎勵的部分，現在只要取得族語認證的，我們都有一些相關的獎勵，包括考上中、高級、優級的部分都有獎勵金，甚至對很多原住民基層工作人員，他會講族語的話，我們還有族語加給來作為鼓勵他們學族語的一個很好的獎勵方式。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為原住民族工作權保障法從90年10月31號經總統公告實施，到104年2月4號除了配合行政院組織改造，主管機關修正為現在原民會。本席所得到的資料，原住民的失業率從90年14.86%，到111年已經降為3.66%。這顯示我們推動成效真的是不錯，原住民的工作都比較屬於來自基層，跟臺灣人民還是有點差異，這差異本席這邊的資料還有將近1萬塊，顯示整個結構上還是有失衡，是不是要怎樣來鼓勵一些民眾、一些企業來……因為原住民都從事比較勞工階段的，是不是也鼓勵原住民能進行工作的媒合，這應該是原民會要去做的。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，我們送給大院的工作權保障法，在公部門的部分，過去只進用約僱人員的部分，所以他的薪資沒有辦法提高，我們新的工作權保障法修正案就是，我們希望正式考試的比例在各部會也都進用，不只有在原民會，這樣的話他們才有增加薪資提高的部分；民間的部分我們鼓勵民間進用更多的原住民，然後他們在做政府採購的時候，有進用原住民達到一定比例的這些民間企業，他們整個評選的項目會增加5分，所以這個是我們整個配套來提升原住民就業力很重要的修法方向，也希望大院支持工作權保障法，可以早日來通過。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，對於原住民，民間企業是1%，現在我看原民會也要把它提高為1.5%，最主要是原住民他們的工作，有的原住民不想從事個別的行業，造成這個行業也是一個空洞，未來我們要怎樣去磨合？在我們原住民的工作權要去磨合原住民跟企業的一個平臺，這是我們原民會要做的事情。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，我想這個部分，院版已經在大院這裡排審，希望未來各個委員有寶貴的意見、還有更好的精進方式的話，我們都尊重，只要大院達成共識，也符合民間企業期待的話，我們都希望可以讓原住民有更好的就業環境。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為我們是要保障原住民的工作權。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員這麼關心原住民的工作。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委，謝謝夷將主委，謝謝。繼續我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.29596875,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":44.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.142218750000005,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.20221875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.38721875,"end":72.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.61034375,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.90096875,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.31409375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.60909375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.46096875,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.86221875,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.52034375,"end":137.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.73096875000002,"end":141.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.25346875,"end":145.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":150.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.26909375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.77034375000002,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.82909375,"end":159.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.81596875,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.96784375000001,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.61471875,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.48971875,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.50346875000002,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.00534375,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.82284375,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.99096875000004,"end":259.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.80471875,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.14596875,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.45784375,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.88784375,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.77221875000004,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.22284375000004,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.56409375000004,"end":304.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.42221875,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.42534375,"end":312.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.52221875000004,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.39284375,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.23596875000004,"end":335.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.95721875000004,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.62284375,"end":347.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.31846875,"end":354.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.47346875,"end":357.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.64596875,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.74284375,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":365.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.57721875000004,"end":368.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.42471875,"end":372.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.46221875000003,"end":374.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.47909375,"end":373.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.60534375000003,"end":377.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.89596875,"end":377.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.96346875,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.99721875,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.27971875000003,"end":397.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.58909375,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.24284375,"end":441.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.98721875,"end":460.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.35971875,"end":465.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.46034375000005,"end":468.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.24034375,"end":472.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.00346875,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.34096875000006,"end":479.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.19221875000005,"end":480.93471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.37346875000003,"end":487.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.10659375000006,"end":490.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.85721875,"end":495.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.64971875000003,"end":496.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.61159375000005,"end":498.8053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請我們原住民主委請一將主委"},{"start":18.908,"end":35.977,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委針對我們今天首排的議程本席比較關心的就是我們海保法的審查我們的主任對我們的海保法有的還不是很清楚"},{"start":36.577,"end":62.51,"text":"那我們的高軍我們的召委也非常的重視尤其我們原住民的權益在審查之前我們也要再辦公聽會那我也要請主委這邊在公聽會上也要多跟我們主任的做一個先導還有溝通那也是我們就近期就會排了吧那是不是主委這邊有什麼說法"},{"start":65.542,"end":81.95,"text":"我想我們會針對海洋保育法的修法關於原住民的部分我們會做很明確的主張跟建議讓整個海保法會也兼顧到原住民的這個傳統的魚撈文化跟傳統海域的這個潛力"},{"start":83.956,"end":106.394,"text":"對,這是我們原住民的權益我們一定要保障嘛那本期在內政委員會我對原住民都是非常的注重所以我過去曾經爭取了不管我們原住民的經費也好原住民的權益、原住民的交易我都是極力來推動那我之前爭取我們山英部落1438萬的經費就是設置一個聚會所還有無線的網路的建置"},{"start":112.279,"end":137.251,"text":"那在疫情期間因為我們很多原住民的朋友也沒辦法說到外面所以透過這無線的網路的建置那我本席比較關心的就整體的全章工程在109年10月完工距離已經5年左右那目前的執行的成效為何那請主委來做說明"},{"start":138.492,"end":159.694,"text":"最新的進度關於無限寬頻的部分提供給當地居民使用的我們在2019年7月28號就已經完成了包括委員一直關心的部落聚會所比這個更早使用所以現在目前這個設施都有充分的讓我們部落來做使用"},{"start":160.908,"end":179.217,"text":"所以在這幾年我們原民會對我們原住民的族人真的也是滿照顧的所以當初我們在推動山林部落當時還遇到很多的阻力然後我們還是一一的排除那現在整個部落"},{"start":179.777,"end":200.206,"text":"我們跟主委我們都有到現場去看那整個環境真的是一個在北大特區那個附近算是一個非常好的一個社區這就是我們的成效對我們原住民的照顧那本期比較關心的就是我們原住民的實驗教育那從過去105年我們的校數現在已經成長了8倍補助經費"},{"start":208.289,"end":211.474,"text":"原住民的文化更加穩定成長本席"},{"start":223.921,"end":250.676,"text":"這邊也要建立喔,主委在老師的臨險方面因為有的是我們的比較偏遠的地方那是對老師的師資這個部分我們還是要鼓勵我們主人有主人來教導這適度應該會比較快這個部分我們會持續跟教育部還有我們地方的教育局怎麼樣讓"},{"start":251.857,"end":278.863,"text":"原住民具有私資經用資格的可以優先在原住民族的實驗學校原住民族地區的學校來擔任老師這樣的話對原住民的教育會有更大的幫助對因為我們要如何來鼓勵我們原住民培育我們原住民整個我們的私資的提升這樣才有實質的幫助那"},{"start":281.967,"end":309.136,"text":"本席這邊對於原住民的語言的自知補治目前我們原住民推廣行銷的保存7年來抑制了2億6千275萬每年編列還是逐年的增加原住民的語言考試在報考人士已經通過人士不但沒有提升反而下降"},{"start":311.522,"end":329.933,"text":"足以認證的考試部分應該是怎樣來做宣導怎樣來做宣傳獎勵制度是不是能來提升有個誘因讓我們原住民的語言認證能夠來提升這是我們諸位請你回答一下"},{"start":330.601,"end":345.969,"text":"根本包括那個人口減少那個部分應該是要這樣看那個數字因為以前的足以認證是國中生才開始考那這幾年開放國小就開始考足以認證所以國小已經考取足以認證初級的"},{"start":348.411,"end":364.88,"text":"國中就不用再報名所以會有減少的這個狀況至於獎勵的部分我們現在只要取得主委認證的我們都有一些相關的獎勵包括考上中高級、高級、優級的部分我們都有獎勵金甚至"},{"start":365.6,"end":377.29,"text":"我們對很多原住民的基層的工作人員他會想族語的話我們還有族語家籍來作為鼓勵他們的一個學族語的一個很好的獎勵方式"},{"start":379.872,"end":397.92,"text":"因為我們原民會我們原住民民主的工作權的保障法那從我們90年10月31號經總統公告實施在104年的2月4號除了配合行政院的自治改造現在我們的原民會"},{"start":399.621,"end":410.504,"text":"我們本席這邊所得到的資料我們原住民的失業率從90年14.86%現在已經降為大概111年已經降為3.66%這顯示我們在推動這成效真的是不錯"},{"start":419.887,"end":429.008,"text":"但是我們原住民的工作都屬於比較來自基層但是跟我們台灣的人民還是有點差異"},{"start":430.391,"end":449.787,"text":"我們差異本席這邊的資料還有將近一萬塊那顯示整個結果上還是有失衡那是不是我們要怎樣來鼓勵我們一些民眾、一些企業人來因為我們原住民都從事於比較勞工階段的"},{"start":450.487,"end":452.49,"text":"那是不是也鼓勵我們原住民能出來工作的媒合這是應該我們原民會要去做的"},{"start":461.397,"end":487.209,"text":"委員跟委員報告我們這個送給大宴的這個工作券保障法在公部門的部分我們希望不是過去是只禁用到這個業故人員這個部分所以他的薪資沒有辦法提高所以我們新的工作券保障的話修正案就是我們希望正式考試的這個比例在各部會都禁用不是只有在延敏會那這樣的話他們才有"},{"start":488.149,"end":513.071,"text":"增加薪資提高的部分民間的部分是我們鼓勵民間禁用更多的原住民然後他們在做政府採購的時候有禁用原住民達到一定比例的這些民間企業他們的整個評選的項目會增加5分所以這個是我們整個配套來提升原住民就業率一個很重要的修法方向"},{"start":513.564,"end":535.078,"text":"也希望我們大院可以支持這個工作局綁架法可以早日來通過對於我們原住民我們民間企業是1%那現在我看我們人民會也要把它提高為1.5%那最主要是我們原住民他們的工作有的原住民有的都不"},{"start":536.059,"end":557.061,"text":"不想去從事個別的行業那造成這個行業也是一個空洞那未來我們還是要怎樣去磨合在我們原住民裡面的工作前我們要去磨合我們原住民跟企業的一個平台這是我們原民會要做的事情"},{"start":558.732,"end":585.552,"text":"委員我想這個部分我們院辦已經在大宴這裡做排審希望未來各個委員有寶貴的意見還有更好的經濟方式的話我們都尊重只要大宴達成共識也符合民間企業的期待的話我們都希望可以讓原住民有更好的這個就業環境對因為我們是要保障原住民的工作權謝謝委員這麼關心原住民的工作謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":588.947,"end":589.609,"text":"謝謝吳祈明、趙薇、謝謝一將主委、謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"150755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c030fef07fb8bf739e82ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6fcb5752122d9094a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:07:22 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11:17:22","影片長度":"00:10:00","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":600,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:17:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:07:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":568,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時7分）主席、大家好。我們先請氣象署。"],["主席：請氣象署程署長。"],["許委員智傑：部長坐著聽就好了。署長，謝謝。上一次我有要求科工館要加強氣象的科普教育，現在聽說有進度了，是不是可以簡單向大家說明一下？"],["程署長家平：因為科工館有很好的展覽場所，所以我們也跟它聯絡，會有更多的氣象儀器進去，也會採取聯展方式與高雄氣象站增加相關的展覽措施。因為高雄氣象站在都會公園，特別是星象部分，因為那比較簡單一點，所以會做一些聯展。"],["許委員智傑：所以已經寫好計畫了？"],["程署長家平：有做討論，計畫還沒寫下來。"],["許委員智傑：那就趕快。我有問一下，知道你們已經有一些進度了，所以先跟你們謝謝，後續我希望可以儘快，以增加高雄的氣象科普教育。"],["程署長家平：是。"],["許委員智傑：有關樂活氣象app，您知道嗎？"],["程署長家平：是，知道。"],["許委員智傑：什麼時候開始啟用？"],["程署長家平：樂活氣象app應該已經有五年了，我們也陸續一直在增加東西。因為其主要目標是針對特定的應用型，如生活應用、健康應用、相關的農業應用，還有學校校園，並與學校校園氣象網結合在一起，做一些相關宣導。"],["許委員智傑：你們現在不是有遠海、近海預報？並從三天延長到五天？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個從今天開始？"],["程署長家平：從今天開始發布。"],["許委員智傑：我要問的是這個。既然你們已經加強樂活氣象app，那麼在宣導上就應該要多加強。現在很多人會出去玩，不管是遠近海，包括漁船、休憩，所以就是在遠海、近海，甚至是在沿海，我覺得你們其實可以提供更多人正確的氣象資訊，所有的人要規劃旅遊行程時，他就會更好掌握，所以這個app我是覺得相當好，但是我覺得宣傳還不夠好。"],["程署長家平：好，我們再來加強，但是不只樂活氣象app，在我們的官網，還有我們一個生活氣象app，也都會同步來做。相關訊息的發布，也會在我們的粉絲團，就是報天氣這些粉絲團上面來做宣傳。"],["許委員智傑：我想氣象署應該……我一直提過，現在觀光局也變觀光署了，我們希望部部都是觀光部，處處都是打卡點。我希望所有的休憩旅遊，氣象署也應該加入觀光署的這個概念，然後大概所有休憩點的氣象預告，我是覺得還不夠，因為我有去查，有些點查得到，有些點查不到，是不是這個部分可以再加強？"],["程署長家平：好，我們來加強。其實我們跟觀光署已經有簽了一個合作協議，最近特別在西拉雅風景區那個氣球節的部分，我們也有進駐來跟觀光署一起合作。"],["許委員智傑：所以是不是觀光署可以提供更多的點？各種各式的休憩旅遊其實很多樣化，是不是把觀光署有休憩旅遊可能的點，能夠跟氣象署做結合，這樣子國人要去規劃旅遊時才會好規劃？"],["程署長家平：是，觀光署有13個風景區管理處，我們跟13個風景區管理處，在每一個管理處，它都有一些特定的旅遊型態，這個部分如果有需要氣象資料我們都會提供。"],["周署長永暉：也跟委員報告，因為旅行中的話，微氣象的即時掌握也滿重要的，所以這個部分我們也謝謝氣象署的協助。另外，剛剛委員關心科工館，所以我們也把科工館再加強一些科普教育，這一次也列為我們暑假的重點活動之一。"],["許委員智傑：OK，我是想說觀光署可以再提供更多的點啦，也就是說，因為國人的旅遊不見得都是去大的風景區嘛，有很多大大小小的點，事實上，如果氣象跟觀光能夠結合在一起，提供國人更正確的資訊，我想這個規劃應該對臺灣的觀光旅遊會有很大的幫助。"],["周署長永暉：是，我們也把譬如說嘉義的太陽館，這個部分的科普也把它納進來。"],["許委員智傑：好，這部分希望我們下次要查這個樂活氣象app時，可以有更充分的資料，也就是氣象署跟觀光署可以做更緊密的連接，好不好？"],["程署長家平：好，我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。我們現在請民航局。"],["主席：請局長。"],["許委員智傑：局長好，新加坡樟宜機場的花園瀑布、蝴蝶，看起來滿迷人的，對不對？還有寶可夢。然後日本札幌新千歲有哆啦A夢的樂園，美國有角子機，荷蘭有國家博物館分館，仁川有溜冰場、電影院，那高雄機場有什麼？"],["何局長淑萍：委員剛剛所詢的這一些機場的特色，我想未來我們高雄國際機場新航廈的整建工程、改建工程，其實我們也會把在地的一些特色元素納進來，裡面講的一些，譬如說比較植栽的部分，在整個現在的基本設計裡面，大概有考慮到我們當地的原生種等等植物。至於一些商業設施等等，我們後續也會再來考量整個地區的特性來放進去。"],["許委員智傑：因為時間有點不夠，在桃園，你可以看到米其林必比登的夜市小吃、滷肉飯，然後呢，臺北美食、砂鍋魚頭，然後還有牛肉麵、興波咖啡等等，其實這些都滿迷人的。當時還是觀光局的時候我也有請你們推動米其林到南部，現在臺南跟高雄也都有米其林，甚至桃園機場也有米其林，高雄機場有沒有規劃？有沒有可能規劃，就是食住方面的加強？"],["何局長淑萍：委員，有關於米其林進駐的部分，這個部分我們來努力看看，跟廠商的部分看要怎麼樣來做……"],["許委員智傑：你再看一下羽田機場，局長應該有看過它的設施吧？"],["何局長淑萍：有。"],["許委員智傑：你看可以在機場裡面泡溫泉、看富士山，那個真的是滿爽快的，我舉這個例子就是說，有很多很多的例子，需要局長在高雄推動，現在航廈正在改建，如果不趕快加入一些因素，不趕快先設想，到時候蓋好就來不及了。"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["許委員智傑：另外，其實我再提供一個，這個可能有點難度，但是可以思考，就是我們高雄現在有一個SKM Park，它是Outlets，就是新光標去嘛，有沒有機會類似像地下街這樣子去串聯，共同開發？因為你全部要靠一個高雄機場去設想，把這麼多的特色通通弄進來，其實也不是那麼容易。這個部分其實是一個比較嶄新的想法，就像東區的新光三越，它很多都有做那個天橋有沒有？天橋是他們自己做的，有一些是兩邊的店家不一樣，各負擔一半，類似這樣子的概念，如果有機會銜接的話，如果他們願意出錢是最好啦，如果他們不願意出錢，有沒有什麼共同開發的機會？也就是說，高雄機場將來其實就是說，除了我本身要去製造我的特色之外，我也可以連接附近，讓居民有更多的，就是來回，包括旅客、包括居民，其實都有很多可以互相支援的空間。除了機場創造自己更多的特色，如果有機會再連接附近的店家，在那個邊陲地帶，最近的店家差不多兩、三百公尺啦，這個部分是不是請民航局也列入思考？"],["何局長淑萍：好，委員剛剛講的，確實我們現在在做的航廈，其實是本體航廈的改建，跟周邊一些的連通、共同的相關合作，或者是連通的這個部分，我們再帶回去研究一下，看看在技術上……"],["許委員智傑：對，我希望這個可以整體思考，因為我的機場不只是機場，我的機場還是一個觀光客，跟在地很多人都喜歡去的地方，關於這個部分周遭的思考，我希望民航局可以多做這一部分的思考。"],["何局長淑萍：好，我們會朝這個方向。"],["許委員智傑：部長，這兩點希望部長能夠幫我跟催一下，謝謝。"],["何局長淑萍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：許委員發言完畢。","現在處理臨時提案，本日計有1案，請議事人員宣讀。","經查「公路公共運輸服務升級計畫」將於今（113）年底執行完畢，該計畫四年核定245億元，實際執行預算約160億元，預算執行率約65%。惟依交通部公路局「公路公共運輸計畫各縣市執行情況」，99-112年該計畫補助台中市共72.68億元、高雄市70.97億元，相較台南市僅40億元；且該計畫多集中補助六都，顯有城鄉落差之情形。","此外，依道安資訊查詢網統計，112年臺南市交通事故每十萬人死傷數達3,261人，為全國第二高，相較大眾運輸工具較普及之雙北，該二直轄市同樣死傷數相加仍少於臺南市，足見大眾運輸工具之重要性。又據公路局112年底公告，全國有56萬人次加值使用TPASS通勤月票，其中南高屏達6.5萬人次，僅次於北北基桃區域，顯見南高屏生活圈逐漸成長，並促使更多民眾搭乘大眾運具。","為減少交通事故發生，並提高民眾搭乘公共運具之意願，爰要求交通部應自114年起，擴大「公路公共運輸服務升級計畫」之補助項目與預算規劃，增加對公共運具尚不發達之縣市（如：台南市）公路、市區電動公車及輕軌、捷運、台鐵、高鐵轉乘接駁路線之營運補助，並提升該計畫之預算執行率達95%，俾促進軌道運輸、國道客運、市區公車等不同交通運具間轉乘接駁服務，避免鐵公路運輸競合爭議，加速完整公共運輸接駁路網。針對前述之要求，請交通部於兩週內向交通委員會提出本案通盤檢討之書面報告，以利後續預算執行。","提案人：林俊憲","連署人：徐富癸　　何欣純　　許智傑"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.87846875,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.74721875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.160343750000003,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.50346875,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.32596875,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.359718750000003,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.612843750000003,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.35909375,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.59909375,"end":63.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.45971875000001,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.11784375,"end":67.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.09596875,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.62096875,"end":87.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.09721875000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.19846875,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.38409375,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.97034375000001,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.74659375,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.76346875,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.34471875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.24909375,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.53534375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.18909375000001,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.22284375000001,"end":126.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.37409375000001,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.69471875,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.96784375000001,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.06909375,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.11971875,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.05159375,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":160.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.47846875000002,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.10221875000002,"end":165.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.91221875000002,"end":181.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.78534375,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.73784375000002,"end":175.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.04909375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.61471875,"end":211.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.94721875000002,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.13284375,"end":223.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.28409375,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.01721875,"end":236.28096875000003},{"speaker":"SPE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校園跟學校的這個校園氣象網也有結合在一起做一些相關宣導的部分那你們現在不是有沿海近海預報從3天延長到5天是"},{"start":122.756,"end":137.243,"text":"對,從今天開始發布我要問的是這個就是說你們已經有加強這個熱火氣象的APP其實這個可能在宣導上應該要多加強因為現在其實很多人出去玩嘛"},{"start":138.363,"end":164.109,"text":"不管是遠洋包括漁船那包括休憩那就是在遠海近海甚至在沿海那這些氣象我覺得我們其實提供我們更多的人這個正確的資訊所有的人要規劃旅遊行程他就會更好掌握所以這個APP我是覺得相當好但是我是覺得宣傳的還不夠"},{"start":165.705,"end":166.506,"text":"氣象署應該一直提過我們觀光局也變觀光署"},{"start":186.658,"end":203.851,"text":"我們希望那個部部都是公共部,處處都是打卡點那我希望說那個所有的休憩旅遊那氣象署也應該加入公共署的這個概念然後大概所有的那個休憩的點,氣象的預告我是覺得還不夠"},{"start":206.713,"end":209.234,"text":"所以是不是觀光署可以提供更多的點各種各式的休憩旅遊其實很多樣化"},{"start":229.938,"end":251.562,"text":"那是不是把觀光署有休憩旅遊的可能的點能夠跟氣象署做結合這樣子那國連要去規劃旅遊才會好規劃是觀光署有13個風景區管理處我們跟13個風景處管理處在每一個管理處他都有一些特定的這些呃旅遊的型態那這個部分如果有需要氣象資料我們都會提供"},{"start":252.321,"end":280.017,"text":"也跟委員報告因為旅行中的話為氣象的這個及時的掌握也蠻重要的所以我們這個部分也很謝謝氣象組的協助另外剛剛委員關心科工館所以我們也把科工館再加強一些科普教育我們這次也列為我們暑假的重點活動之一OK我是想說那觀光署可以再提供更多的點也就是說因為國人的旅遊不見得是大的風景區嘛那有很多大大小小的"},{"start":280.717,"end":282.198,"text":"我們現在請民防局"},{"start":325.159,"end":353.766,"text":"那個新加坡章魚機場花園瀑布蝴蝶看起來蠻迷人的對不對還有寶可夢然後呢日本雜訪新千歲有哆啦A夢的樂園那美國有餃子機荷蘭有國家博物館分館仁川有溜冰場電影院那高雄機場有什麼"},{"start":356.294,"end":384.888,"text":"我想委員剛剛所詢的這一些機場的特色我想未來我們高雄國際機場的新航廈的一個整建的工程改建的工程其實我們也會把在地的一些特色元素納進來那裡面講的一些譬如說比較植栽的部分在整個現在的目前的一個基本的設計裡面大概有考慮到我們當地的原生種等等植物那至於一些商業設施等等我們後續也會再來"},{"start":386.108,"end":402.054,"text":"考量整個地區的特性來放下時間有點不夠所以這個桃園你可以看米其林、必比登這個夜市小吃這個滷肉飯然後呢臺北美食砂鍋魚頭"},{"start":403.735,"end":426.929,"text":"然後還有牛肉麵、辛婆咖啡等等其實這個都蠻迷人的那我當時也請觀光局的時候有推動米其林到南部現在台南跟高雄也都有米其林那現在桃園機場也有米其林那高雄機場有沒有規劃有沒有可能規劃就是實住方面的加強"},{"start":429.366,"end":453.756,"text":"委員這部分有關這個米其林進駐的部分這個部分我們來努力啦看看齁跟這個長沙的部分看來看怎麼樣來做然後你再看一下雨田機場齁雨田機場機場應該有看過它的設施吧有你看喔在那邊泡溫泉看富士山在機場裡面泡溫泉看富士山齁那個真是蠻爽快的"},{"start":455.427,"end":481.965,"text":"所以我要舉這個例子就是說有很多很多的例子那需要那個局長在高雄的現在在行下在改建如果不趕快加入一些因素不趕快聲音設想你到時候蓋好就來不及了那另外呢其實我再提供一個這個可能有點難度但是可以思考就是我們高雄現在有一個SKM Park它是Outlet就是星光標去嘛"},{"start":483.257,"end":506.338,"text":"那如果有沒有機會類似地下街這樣子串聯共同開發因為你全部要靠一個高雄機場去設想把這麼多的特色通通弄進來其實也不是那麼容易那這個部分其實是一個比較嶄新的想法就像那個東區星光商業他很多做那個天橋有沒有"},{"start":507.259,"end":524.651,"text":"天橋他們是自己做的那有一些是兩邊的店家不一樣各負擔一半那類似這樣子的概念如果有機會銜接的話如果他們願意出錢是最好啦如果他們不願意出錢有沒有什麼共同該開發的機會那也就是我高雄機場"},{"start":526.453,"end":551.269,"text":"將來其實就是說除了我本身要去製造我的特色之外那我連接附近可以讓居民有更多的就是來回包括旅客包括居民其實都有很多的可以互相可以支援的空間那我機場創造我更多的特色那如果有機會再連接這個附近的店家那邊陲地帶最近差不多兩三百公尺"},{"start":556.111,"end":583.458,"text":"這個是不是請民航局也列入思考好那個委員剛剛講的確實我們現在在做的航廈其實是本體航廈的改建那跟周邊的一些的聯通的共同的一些相關合作或者是聯通的這個部分我們再帶回去研究一下對我希望說這個可以整體思考因為我的機場不只是機場我的機場就是還是一個觀光客跟我在地很多人都喜歡去的地方"},{"start":584.378,"end":597.685,"text":"那這個部分周遭的思考希望說民防局可以多做這部分的思考那剛才部長這兩點希望部長能夠幫我跟吹一下好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"150754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0f58e8bc4a04a53ab82ad73e3a9acf4eaf8ba9b0039caa7a68e65e8e2ec6156db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:55:19 - 11:07:12","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-6"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":713,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:07:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:55:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時55分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：陳委員早！"],["陳委員素月：部長，早安！我們知道現在因為極端氣候的異常，所以常常非颱風期間也會有強降雨，強降雨帶來暴雨，對於交通運輸也會造成很大的衝擊，所以在極端氣候下，對於交通運輸相關的災防預警也相對非常的重要，所以今天召委也特別排了這樣子的專題報告。","本席在這邊先請教一下，我們知道車站往往都是人群聚集最多的地方，因為交通運輸巔峰時期很多鄉親在搭車的時候車站就是人最多的地方，我們也看到國外曾經有在豪大雨的時候，停放在月臺載有乘客的列車被豪雨淹沒的這種意外發生，我們當然不希望臺灣發生這樣的狀況，可是我們還是要有先期的預防及準備，在這個部分，交通部有怎樣的應變措施或規劃，是不是可以做一下說明？"],["王部長國材：好，鐵、公路車站的基礎設施，第一個、當然是防淹水，這是我們最重要的部分，過去對於真的有那種狀況發生時，他們會有SOP，比如說要怎麼樣把車輛，還有公車在整個行駛的範圍做一些調整，甚至說有一些交通疏導，比如說有一個地方淹水沒辦法進去的時候，這整個替代運輸的方式等等的。我是不是請臺鐵局董事長稍微講一下臺鐵的部分好不好？"],["杜董事長微：向委員報告，我們在各站場的防淹水措施都有持續在做，這是基本的，至於發生這種淹水或者是其他防災情形的話，我們現在都有進行各項的演練，這個在年度計畫或者是在演練、演習裡面都有。至於其他相關的硬體設施，像是鶯歌桃園軌道，我舉這個例子來說明，這個在去年鐵道局已經協助我們把原來的單一的水路給它改成兩邊的水路，像這種臺鐵都有持續在進行。"],["陳委員素月：是，我想這個應變就是要有一定的SOP，這個很重要，還有平常的演練也很重要，我是不曉得說針對這方面我們有固定的一個演練嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有演習，我們有年度的演習，然後也有針對特殊情形的，會有特別加強的演練。"],["陳委員素月：是，好。我想這個超前部署做災防的預演練跟應變是非常的重要。再來在整個交通運輸方面，有關於邊坡災害的預防也是非常重要，因為過去我們也看到很多不管是鐵路曾經發生過的邊坡滑落事故，或者是公路國道也曾經發生的坍方事故，所以對於整個邊坡的維護與管理是非常的重要，這個會影響到整個行進當中車輛跟人員的安全問題，我們看到針對鐵路的部分，鐵道局在今年有送出了鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範草案，是不是？這個部分的進度大概如何，是不是簡單說明一下。"],["呂副局長新喜：報告委員，現在這個草案在審查當中。"],["陳委員素月：那我請教一下部長，鐵路有提出這樣子的草案規範，那公路國道的部分是不是也有相關的規範？"],["王部長國材：本來就有……"],["陳委員素月：本來就有？"],["王部長國材：邊坡監測的規範……"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，國道邊坡的規範很早就訂定了……"],["陳委員素月：好，所以在這部分有一定的SOP，也就是巡查、監測等等作業，是不是？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["陳委員素月：請教一下，以整個彰化縣來說，危險邊坡監測的數量大概有多少，知道嗎？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，彰化縣部分主要是國道1號，且邊坡都是路堤邊坡，所以大概都是D級坡，是沒有問題的。"],["陳委員素月：像八卦山隧道這部分呢？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，隧道有隧道的監測機制，至於邊坡，基本上公路的邊坡，我們都有做相關的定性、定量分析，而且依照其歷史紀錄分A、B、C、D，我們總共列管1,700處的省道公路，全國優先關注的是46處。由於我們列管1,700處，所以每一個工務段在轄區內每週都會做經常性的巡查。"],["陳委員素月：就是在固定時間就會做巡查？"],["陳局長文瑞：是、是。"],["陳委員素月：以我們所看到的相關資料來說，在公路監測部分是透過科技，也就是利用無人機來做監測……"],["陳局長文瑞：對、對。"],["陳委員素月：鐵路部分就沒有辦法利用無人機嗎？我想請教一下鐵道局還是鐵路局？"],["呂副局長新喜：報告委員，基本上在鐵路運用無人機也是可行，也是可以的。"],["陳委員素月：也是可行？目前還沒有，是不是？"],["呂副局長新喜：目前是有些特殊的，比如說要看鐵路橋梁，就可以用無人機就近去看比較細的部分。"],["王部長國材：就是橋梁部分，橋梁部分還是需要……"],["陳委員素月：我們希望就整個監測部分，能夠運用科技更精細地掌握狀況，確保行車安全，畢竟鐵路或公路運輸都關係到人民安全。至於設施，也就是橋梁，這是很多鄉親都會關注的，因為過去也發生過很多件，在颱風時候由於河水上漲沖斷橋梁；甚至在風和日麗之下，也發生橋梁斷裂事故，也就是蘇澳大橋的例子。所以對橋梁的監測與安全維護非常重要，就這部分，交通部對橋梁的安全檢測、維護與列管，目前的辦理情形是如何？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，針對全國各類橋梁，我們第一個要求就是一定要做年度檢測。就年度檢測來說，現在各縣市政府幾乎都已經接近百分之百做完檢測。不過在年度檢測的截止時間內，確實有百分之七十幾在檢測完後有做維護，至於其他還沒完成的部分，也因為有些維護工作要做比較久，所以在截止時間內還沒完成，因此我們還沒解列。對於還沒有做完的部分，其實我們都有要求各縣市政府要列管，並另外發文縣市政府、副知縣市首長，請他們也要督促。"],["陳委員素月：橋梁結構安全的先決條件可能是當初在興建時的施工品質，或日後的維護狀況。當然，還有一個外部因素，也就是可能涉及到河川治理，即是不是有盜採砂石，或河水沖刷橋墩的狀況發生。因此，在做橋梁安全的監測與維護時，是否有做全面的、各方因素考量？這部分交通部會這樣子做嗎？"],["王部長國材：首先是我們自己的橋梁，如鐵公路，他們的SOP 都很完整。至於縣市政府的橋梁部分，我們現在透過橋梁評鑑，如剛才談到的第一個檢測率，這幾乎已經快100%，且每年都會檢測。第二個就是剛剛談到維修率，還差23%，有的是經費問題，所以我們鼓勵申請生活圈計畫好儘快進行維修等等。現在不只公路橋、鐵路橋，還把人行也都放進來，在剛剛委員所指出的這個系統裡都已經可以搜尋到。也就是資訊都是公開的，也大概知道各縣市的維修率、檢測率是多少，這些都會知道。我想這也是一個公開的程序，讓很多人瞭解各縣市政府有沒有積極作為。"],["陳委員素月：由剛剛部長的回答我們可以聽出一個重點，也就是橋梁有不同的管理單位，有縣市政府，也有交通部高公局或鐵路局的鐵路橋梁。我剛才提到的蘇澳大橋則屬於港務局，所以對於不同單位所管理的橋梁，我想交通部應該是最高的管理機關。因此，交通部是不是應該要負起統籌監督的責任，負責整體的督促與督導，好讓我們的橋梁安全能夠更安全？"],["王部長國材：目前就是全國都納管，包括地方政府也納管。"],["陳委員素月：交通部都全部納管？"],["王部長國材：對，都納管。"],["陳委員素月：至於河川部分，為什麼我會提到這個？因為有鄉親反映地方相關大橋，疑似有上下游的砂石問題，從而影響到橋墩的安全。過去有鄉親反映這個議題，所以我希望這部分交通部能與相關單位，即水利署在資訊上互相配合？"],["王部長國材：這個應該有吧？"],["陳局長文瑞：有。"],["王部長國材：我們會多瞭解一下地方的狀況。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：陳素月委員發言完畢。現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-6","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","林沛祥","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","何欣純","陳素月","許智傑","林俊憲","陳雪生","游顥","廖先翔","林德福","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","蔡易餘","邱志偉","黃健豪","顏寬恒"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材就「極端氣候災防預警暨汛期防汛準備辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.60846875,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6.40971875,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11.25284375,"end":12.079718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.231593750000002,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.11159375,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":91.96596875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":100.72409375000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":106.51221875,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.27471875,"end":119.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.86034375000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.20534375000001,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":128.04471875000002,"end":129.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":129.96846875,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.03096875,"end":154.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.72409375,"end":177.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.14784375000002,"end":170.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.72471875000002,"end":181.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.34846875000002,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.79784375,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.86534375000002,"end":196.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.65846875000003,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.74159375000002,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.63784375,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.06659375000004,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.23034375000003,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.38596875,"end":267.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.53784375000004,"end":276.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":276.98346875000004,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":277.92846875000004,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.05471875,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":280.08846875,"end":280.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":280.57784375,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":282.88971875000004,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":284.66159375,"end":285.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.09596875,"end":289.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.04471875,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.05721875,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.82846875,"end":296.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.92971875,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.42721875,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.84909375,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.05534375,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.49784375,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.61159375,"end":313.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.45034375,"end":313.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.48409375,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.66971875,"end":314.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.78784375000004,"end":313.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":314.74971875,"end":323.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.31784375,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":329.22846875000005,"end":329.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":329.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.13534375,"end":339.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.67409375,"end":363.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":385.15221875000003},{"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請主席邀請王部長請王部長村委長"},{"start":12.664,"end":37.891,"text":"部長早安我們知道現在這個極端氣候的異常所以常常飛颱風期間也會有這個強降雨那這個強降雨再來這個暴雨對於這個交通運輸也會造成很大的一個衝擊所以對於整個就是在極端氣候下對於這個交通運輸的相關的一個災防預警也相對的非常的重要"},{"start":38.431,"end":60.669,"text":"所以今天這個召委也特別排了這樣子的一個專題報告那本席在這邊先請教一下就是因為我們知道這個車站往往都是人群聚集最多的地方因為這個交通運輸就是巔峰時期很多鄉親在搭車的時候車站就是人最多的地方那我們也看到"},{"start":61.449,"end":85.507,"text":"國外曾經有在這個豪大雨的時候就是停放在月台的這個戰友乘客列車被這個豪雨淹沒的這種意外發生所以在針對這樣的一個狀況我們當然不希望發生台灣不希望發生這樣的狀況可是我們還是要有就是掀起的一個預防跟做一個就是準備"},{"start":86.187,"end":105.802,"text":"那在這個部分我們交通部有什麼樣的一個應變措施或規劃是不是可以做一下說明好 那個鐵公路的車站的基礎設施第一個當然是防淹水這是我們最重要的部分那他們過去是對於這些如果真的有那種狀況他們有SOP"},{"start":106.542,"end":107.582,"text":"董事長稍微講一下台鐵的部分好不好"},{"start":135.286,"end":160.901,"text":"社區委員報告那個我們在各戰場的這個防淹水的措施都有持續在做了這是基本的那至於這個發生了這種淹水或者是其他這種有有防災情形的話我們現在都有進行這個各項的演練那這個我們在年度計畫或者是在我們的體驗演習裡面都有"},{"start":161.681,"end":181.494,"text":"那至於這個我們其他相關的硬體設施像英哥桃園軌道我舉這個例子這個在去年那鐵道局已經協助我們把原來的單一的水路給它改成兩個兩邊的水路那像這種我們持續台鐵這邊都有在進行"},{"start":182.441,"end":203.988,"text":"是我想這個應變就是要有一定的SOP這個很重要那還有平常的一個演練也很重要那我是不曉得說針對這方面我們有固定的一個演練嗎有演習有有我們有年度的然後也有特殊這個針對特殊情形的有特別加強的演練"},{"start":204.853,"end":225.222,"text":"是,我想這個超前部署做這個災防的演練跟應變是非常的一個重要那再來就是說我想在整個交通運輸方面就是有關於這個邊坡的一個災害的一個預防也是非常的一個重要因為在過去我們也看到很多"},{"start":225.822,"end":225.982,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":244.301,"end":245.762,"text":"鐵道局今年有送出鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範草案,這部分的進度如何?"},{"start":263.274,"end":289.515,"text":"報告委員現在這個草案現在在審查當中在審查當中那我請教一下部長就是說鐵路有提出這樣子的一個草規範草案那我們公路國道的部分是不是也有相關的一個規範應該有吧本來就有本來就有啦鞭破監測的規範跟委員報告我們國道鞭破的規範是很早就訂定的"},{"start":290.043,"end":307.551,"text":"張嬅縣"},{"start":307.551,"end":314.135,"text":"張化線的部分主要是國道一號路體一邊坡而已所以他大概都是低幾坡是沒有問題的是公走的"},{"start":331.458,"end":345.544,"text":"跟回報那個就是說隧道有隧道的監測的機制那因為我們邊坡的話基本上就是說公路的邊坡的話我們都有做相關的這一些定性定量的分析而且依照他們的歷史的一些記錄分為這個ABCD"},{"start":347.085,"end":350.427,"text":"總共省道公路列管1700處全國優先關注46處每個公路段在轄區內列管1700處每週經常性巡查"},{"start":364.13,"end":364.831,"text":"報告委員 基本上無人機"},{"start":393.686,"end":397.157,"text":"在鐵路流來運用無人機也是可行也是可以的"},{"start":398.285,"end":423.342,"text":"目前還沒有嗎目前是有些特殊的比如說要去看那個鐵路橋樑他們可以用無人機到那個就近去看比較細的部分就橋樑的部分橋樑的部分還是需要我們也希望就是說在整個監測的部分我們能夠就是透過科技的一個運用能夠更精細然後更能夠掌握這個狀況然後確保這整個行車的一個安全"},{"start":426.144,"end":426.424,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":448.141,"end":448.161,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":476.838,"end":500.556,"text":"各位報告現在全國的這一個各類的橋樑第一個部分的話就要求一定要做年度的檢測那年度檢測現在幾乎各縣市政府已經都接近百分之百做完檢測那現在確實就是說像我們年度在做這個這個截止時間內就是百分之七十幾的這一個檢測完以後有做維護"},{"start":501.357,"end":525.206,"text":"那其他的部分就是說還沒完成的因為有一些的這個維護的工作他要做比較久所以他的時間就是說在我們截止時間他還沒完成所以我們還沒給他就是說這個解列不過就是說還沒有做完的部分的話其實我們都有要求就是說各縣市政府其實就是說要這個我們做列管然後另外其實發文到縣市政府的時候還複資給他們的那個縣市首長請他們也要督促"},{"start":525.942,"end":546.213,"text":"是 我想這個橋樑結構的安全當然就是它的先決條件可能就是當初在新造新建的時候的這個施工品質或者是之後的維護的狀況那當然還有一個外部的因素可能就是涉及到整個河川的治理是不是有稻採砂石或者是說"},{"start":546.893,"end":547.213,"text":"姜文貴議員"},{"start":566.234,"end":593.19,"text":"我們目前第一個就是我們自己的橋樑是鐵工屋這個是都他們的SOP都很完整那過去就是縣市政務的這個橋樑部分那我們現在透過開始做這個橋樑的評鑑剛才談到的就是第一個是這個檢測率他有沒有幾乎已經快百分之一百了每人都會檢測了第二個就是剛才談到維修率還差23%主要有的是經費問題"},{"start":594.631,"end":620.769,"text":"所以我們也鼓勵他比如說申請生活圈的計畫趕快來做一些這個維修等等的那現在整個我們現在是公路橋、鐵路橋還把人形的都放進來所以全國就是剛剛委員所看到的這個系統裡面都可以已經可以搜尋也就是說他的資訊都公開的也大概知道各個縣市的這個比如說他們維修率、檢測率是多少都知道"},{"start":621.209,"end":645.05,"text":"那我想這樣也是一個公開的程序讓很多人了解各縣市政府有沒有一個積極的作為對那剛剛由部長的回答裡面當然我們也有聽出一個重點就是說這個橋樑有不同的管理單位有縣市政府也有我們交通部可能就是高工局或者是鐵路局的鐵路橋樑那我剛剛有提到的這個蘇澳大橋那個又屬於港務局"},{"start":645.871,"end":666.961,"text":"所以對於這不同的單位的一個管理的橋樑那我們這個交通部應該是最高的一個管理機關所以我們是不是也應該要就是負起統籌監督的一個責任要做整體的一個督促跟督導那我們的這個橋樑安全能夠更安全"},{"start":667.341,"end":688.844,"text":"目前就是全國都納管了包括地方政委納管全部都 全部都有納管那剛剛我有提到就是說那個有關就是河川的部分其實這部分我為什麼會提到這個是因為我們有鄉親反映我們地方相關的大橋就是有疑似就是上下游的這個沙石的這個部分"},{"start":689.224,"end":689.524,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c040f327ebf914f46691bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6c918c540eac2d2945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:03:09 - 11:15:43","影片長度":"00:12:34","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":754,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:15:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:03:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時3分）謝謝主席。主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。部長，對於您今天還是依舊出席我們委員會，本席是要為您打個氣，同時對您在領導國防部來講，我覺得這是個最好的表率，面對壓力的時候、面對困難的時候，還是要挺身而出，然後在你的職位上面要持續，至少我認為目前為止，就像今天的報告主題國防自主一樣，很多時候我們自己的心智要夠強。不過有關於您公子這個案件，因為攸關到國家安全的部分，當然本席站在外交及國防委員會的委員立場來說，我也希望相關單位必須要釐清，畢竟我覺得這樣對於整體國防來講是不是出現了什麼破口，還是必須要有一些瞭解的。","另外，對於國防相關的人員當中，有關保密及安全相關，對於自身或是國防的部分，我覺得都還是要再教育。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員的關切，而且對於我們有很明確的指導，這些我們都在檢討當中，而且要很具體，將來要實踐，再次感激委員。"],["林委員楚茵：好。部長，之前王定宇委員曾經提出有關憲兵特勤團的保險狀況，當時我在臺下，我就非常關注這個話題，原因是在於對所有第一線、保家衛國的弟兄，我們除了該給的薪餉、該有的保障之外，也要讓他們無後顧之憂，才會為國家打拚。我特別調出從2020年到2024年近五年有關於憲兵特勤人員及特勤編組人員的團體保險狀況，如果部長無法回答的話，我想請負責這個業務的長官來回應，2020年我們看到這個預算不斷地往前增加，到2024年已經相差4倍，通常保險是這樣，要不就是保險危險等級的提高，保險公司認為他們無法獲利或是無法負擔，所以會調高保費；另外還有一個狀況就是不斷地出險，也就是不斷理賠。我想就教一下為什麼會增加到4倍，是因為人員變多嗎？還是發生什麼樣的狀況，請問部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告一下，我請憲兵參謀長跟您做說明。"],["林委員楚茵：好，參謀長，請。"],["呂參謀長正芳：委員好。跟委員報告，有關特勤的保險部分，因為我們這個特勤……"],["林委員楚茵：人員有變多嗎？"],["呂參謀長正芳：人員沒有變多。"],["林委員楚茵：從過去以來，我現在所紀錄的資料從2020年到2023年理賠有出險嗎？都沒有嘛，對不對？"],["呂參謀長正芳：對。"],["林委員楚茵：所以如果是這樣的狀況，為什麼會一再流標？流標之後是不是就提高金額？我只問這個，因為時間有限。"],["呂參謀長正芳：我們在今年1月底的時候有增賦預算作為投標的金額。"],["林委員楚茵：好，結果還是流標，對不對？理由是什麼，包括不願意來投標的原因是什麼，有沒有去詢問？"],["呂參謀長正芳：我們有去詢問，大部分就是表示意願不高，沒有這個意願投標。"],["林委員楚茵：意願不高通常是覺得有問題，但是我要知道沒有出險的部分，沒出險就是沒有理賠，他們就是直接把這些錢都賺走，結果他還覺得意願不高、沒有獲利，不覺得奇怪嗎？我現在看到的旺旺友聯或是新光產物，這些都是民營單位，我想就教，您知不知道其實我們有公股行庫？"],["呂參謀長正芳：知道。"],["林委員楚茵：那有沒有去洽詢公股行庫？連臺產、第一產、兆豐產、華南產、第一壽、臺銀壽跟合庫壽都不願意來標嗎？不願意為我們的國家來貢獻一點，不是都會有政策上面需要協助的情況嗎？有協助嗎？還是這是一個上下交相賊的狀況，一再流標、一再墊高決標金額？有沒有去找過這些公股行庫？"],["呂參謀長正芳：這些部分我們要再去查一下，因為我們當初有問了十多家，我再去清查一下有沒有這幾家公股。"],["林委員楚茵：好，沒有關係，本席等一下也會到財政委員會，今天剛好金管會、財政部都在財政委員會，我也會幫你問。本席生氣的是，今天如果連我們第一線憲兵特勤人員的保險都保不出去的話，他們怎麼樣保家衛國？這個保險其實只是一個小小的心意，如果都沒有出險，但是都說不來投標、無利可圖，如果無利可圖的話，我們就應該去找公股行庫，公股行庫至少有全民的資金在裡面，它必須要負擔國家的重責大任，我建議你先找這些公股行庫，如果他們一樣say no的話，我們就要好好問一下財政部、問一下金管會跟保險局到底發生什麼事情，好嗎？但是不要讓我合理懷疑這是一種故意流標的方式，想想看，同樣的人數且沒有出險，卻可以從104萬墊高到現在371萬還流標，然後招標的金額從175萬到現在506萬，我知道物價飛漲，但這是不是漲得太離譜？部長，你怎麼看？"],["邱部長國正：委員有點出來，的確有幾個關鍵問題，我想我要確定一下，這邊所謂的公家如臺產、第一產等等，我印象中我們軍中有很多部分都有跟他們合作，所以請憲兵確認統統有找過他們，他們有什麼困難，再請委員來幫忙……"],["林委員楚茵：好。本席強調的重點就是，保險確實會做一些風險評估，經過精算之後會決定保險金額，但是都沒有出險，人員也沒有增加，這中間我必須合理地懷疑一定發生了一些事情。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解，這個合理……"],["林委員楚茵：我也希望這些業者們要有社會良心、要有企業的ESG。因為本席來自財政委員會，過去我都待在財政委員會，我會緊追這件事情，因為我總覺得第一線國軍必須要給他們夠多的保障，才能夠讓他們無後顧之憂。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["林委員楚茵：下一個我要請問的當然就是有關於無人機的部分，剛剛前面也都有委員說了，有關這個無人機所曝光的畫面，我們現在確定是民用的無人機嗎，部長？"],["邱部長國正：確定了，大疆嘛。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是大疆。"],["林委員楚茵：是不是民用的無人機就無法可管？或者就撇開我們過去有關於如何反擊或反制的部分，是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是，我跟委員報告，不管民用、軍用，只要逾越我們上空就代表一個侵犯嘛，那我們搞不清楚它是民用還是軍用的，我們把它當作已經發動第一擊的這種概念。我剛剛已經報告，我承認這件事情是我們訓練不夠周延，規定都有、程序步驟也都明定，但金防部沒有落實推動，不是我要負責，但我會追責，這部分特別跟委員做說明。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為我看到的是媒體曝光之後，當然媒體應該有去問金防部，所以就有了一個這樣的新聞稿說：類似騷擾啊，會依自我防衛的原則，然後依威脅的程度會採取一定的行動。但是一定的行動到底是什麼呢？本席特別去找了一個無人機處置的報告，這是去年11月，當時因為也發生一些無人機的狀況，所以當時就有4個步驟，無人機處置作為包括：第一個識別監控、第二個是告警通報、第三個是防衛射擊、第四個就是安全示警。","就以我們看到這樣的一個狀況，目前這個SOP就像剛剛部長您所說的，是訓練不夠？還是他們根本無法認知到底應該要進行到哪一個步驟？又或者是當時我們看到這個照片，當然對這位弟兄有點不好意思，但可以感受到他們確實有發現無人機了。那麼從金防部3月30號的新聞稿，其實我感受不到他們認為這有威脅，或者認為只是看過就算了，那麼對於4個月前，也就是去年11月當時所提出來的這4個作為，他們有做嗎？還是說真的，這只是給我們國防外交委員會一份報告，但事實上這個步驟並沒有落實下去？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，落實不落實這就是關鍵，做的部分有訂，但訂出規則還是要演練，這一方面一定出了問題，是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我想請教金防部的就是，如果現在沒有演練，還是說曾經演練過，基本上無人機的侵擾、干擾甚至於威脅已經是越來越頻繁，那麼在面對這樣的狀況的時候，應該要像我們上個禮拜有特別講到的，無人機都需要有操作手、要有訓練，那麼非操作手的這些袍澤同胞、國軍弟兄們，他們是不是有類似的課程跟訓練在做反制？還是其實只是看到這樣的情況，給了委員會的委員一份報告之後沒有再實質訓練，現在有沒有做反制訓練的相關課程呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，他有做，他現在也在強化，但是這個速度以前就要求了，等到發生再補強，講起來也就是亡羊補牢，但這不是辦法，所以一而再等到發生再來補強就沒有意義了，所以我還是跟委員報告，也是很抱歉啦，這也是我們國防部應該要做而沒有做好的，我們強化。但剛剛委員講說是不是每一個非操作手也要去練，因為這是反制的東西啊，反制的方法不管你會不會操作，你只要知道這個程序步驟，該打信號彈的、該要射擊的，這個是講得很明確的，我們很明確來強化。"],["林委員楚茵：因為反制就跟防身術一樣，不論你是不是操作手都要學下來，因為你隨時有可能可以看到。我們目前看到或新聞曝光的大概都是以金門、離島地區為優先，那麼在臺灣國內、本島的部分有沒有什麼樣的區域，因為我覺得一時間全部叫大家來上課，包括可能反制的器材、或者是反制的設備、或是反制的師資、教練都不一定夠，對部長來講，有沒有幾個先行的要好好認真，尤其是我們認為無人機出現機率很高的，部長這裡有沒有一個想法希望從哪邊、哪幾個單位開始來做一個實質的反制操演，而且遇到狀況的時候知道怎麼樣來做反制？"],["邱部長國正：有！首當其衝當然就是外、離島嘛，這已經發生過兩件事情，還有就是本島的機場或雷達站，這些地方我們把它設為優先的，因為這些地方如果飛進來以後，對我們任務的執行都會有問題；那其他的話，一般部隊就是門禁、安全的問題，但是每個人都要訓練的。我們國防部上空也曾經有發覺過，干擾以後掉下去然後交給警察，這個我們要不停的演練。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為無人機的部分對於臺灣的侵擾是越來越明確、越來越多，也請部長還有相關的單位能夠多留意這個部分，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","案由：鑑於國內電價已於4月1日起，對所有用戶類別實行全面性調漲，電價平均調漲11%。然國內電價上一次111年7月調漲後，國防部112年實際支出電費已達34億餘元，粗估本次電費調漲後恐將達到40億餘元之規模。","因應近年共軍持續擾台，國軍油料、零附件及重要軍事投資建案實需經費不斷大幅成長，國防年度預算已不敷支應甚至發生動用預備金之情事。考量國防部為非營利事業單位，國防預算均來自國人民脂民膏。故電費之調漲造成國防部電費實際支出費用暴增，恐不符合全民之利益，亦將影響國軍建軍備戰之執行。","爰此，要求國防部應向行政院積極爭取，將國防部暨所屬單位納入本次電費調整凍漲名單內，並請於2個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：馬文君　　黃　仁　　陳永康　　徐巧芯　　林憶君"],["主席：就這一個提案的主旨，因為國內的電價在4月1號已經針對所有用戶類別要實施全面性的調漲，不過漲幅也高達11%，國內上一次調漲電價是在111年7月，那時候國防部在112年實際支出的電費就已經高達34億，111年是30億，所以已經增加了四億多；現在初估本次電費調漲以後，可能會達到四十多億的規模。","對於現在共軍持續擾臺，有關油料、一些零附件以及一些重要投資建案的預算支出、需求不斷增加，而且這個在我們去年的預算裡面也沒有包含在內，所以對於整個國防部的負擔可能會加重非常多。而這樣子暴增的經費，我們希望這一次可以不要調整國防部電價，因為這一次電價的調整有一些學校甚至醫院其實也沒有調漲，所以我們也希望經濟部就這部分考量，在目前國軍建軍備戰執行困難的情況之下，可以免予調漲。","就這個提案，請洪委員。"],["洪委員申翰：先請國防部說明。"],["楊次長基榮：委員好，首先感謝召委還有各位委員對國防部電費的關心跟支持，我區分三個部分向委員做報告，因為國防部也是行政團隊的一員、也是行政團隊的一環，整個部會都是一次性的調漲，因此作為行政團隊的一環，我覺得要列為凍漲名單可能我們還要再視狀況來爭取。第二個，因為我們的用電是屬於軍事的用電，跟一般民生用電的範疇還有目的是不太一致的；另外，如果在電費調漲之後支出增加，我們會有預備金，甚至我們會跟行政院申請。","所以我在這邊跟委員報告，文字上建議修改兩個部分，第一個部分是第2段第3行「考量國防部非營利單位」，我們建議增加1個字，就是「考量國防部為非營利單位」。第3段的部分，在「爰此」之後，原文是「要求國防部應向行政院積極爭取，將國防部暨所屬單位納入本次電費調整凍漲名單內」，我們建議調整為「爰此，要求國防部向行政院積極爭取預算支付」。報告完畢。"],["主席：「爭取預算支付」？"],["楊次長基榮：是，「爭取預算支付」。"],["主席：你們認為凍漲不可行嗎？有些學校跟醫院這次也在凍漲範圍之內啊！在這一次要調漲的時候，你這樣講是代表預算很充足的意思嗎？"],["楊次長基榮：我們的預算依照經驗常數，我們應該是可以支應。"],["主席：這次調漲高達11%以上耶！"],["楊次長基榮：是。"],["主席：所以你們覺得國防部之前沒有漲價考量情況之下的預算已經可以、足以支應？"],["楊次長基榮：如果數量不夠的話，我們當然還是會向行政院積極爭取。而我剛才跟召委還有各位委員報告過，因為……"],["主席：所以對於我們提案建議凍漲，國防部覺得只要爭取就好了，如果沒有也沒關係，是這樣的意思嗎？我們的建議其實是希望這一次可以凍漲的，因為在現在兩岸局勢這麼緊張的情況之下，國軍的需求可能也相對增加。為什麼大家常常把油、電擺在一起談？油漲了以後，現在已經用預備金支應了；現在電價也要漲這麼多，你仍認為你們的預算都可以支應、都可以充足支應，是嗎？"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委，是這樣說啦！我剛剛跟各位委員報告過了，我們……"],["主席：所以對於我的提案建議納入這次凍漲名單之內，國防部覺得不妥？"],["楊次長基榮：不是不妥。"],["主席：那為什麼你會認為要調整這個部分？"],["楊次長基榮：因為我們是行政團隊的一部分，而行政團隊是一致性的。"],["主席：但那是我們的提案啊！因為我們認為你們在很多預算上可能不足，除非你預算編得太足了嘛！因為這是額外增加的，去年審預算時根本不知道要調漲這麼高的預算啊！每次在審預算的時候，你們都跟我們說油料突然要增加那麼多，很多預算都不足以支應，那現在顯然是預算很充足？"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委，這樣好了，是否先請經濟部說明，看看他們的立場？"],["林次長全能：謝謝。我想在這個部分，提案委員有提案委員的思考，國防部剛剛也表達了看法。而我要表達的部分是就經濟部主管這次電價調整的機制向委員做個說明。這個機制是依據電業法規範成立電價審議會，調漲或凍漲等所有相關部分也在電價審議會討論過了，而且是在今天就公告實施，就算這次提案建議納入本次電費凍漲名單，大概也沒辦法納入，這部分必須很明確地跟主席以及委員報告。我們的建議是，針對這件事情，軍用用電的情形是否有跟民生相關的部分可能要評估，可不可以這樣調整？假設委員有這樣的建議，那我們建議最後一段改為「爰此，建請國防部應向行政院爭取評估將國防部暨所屬單位納入電價調整凍漲名單內」。我們建議以這樣的方式評估，看看有沒有機會，這是經濟部的建議。"],["主席：經濟部說完了嗎？"],["林次長全能：說完了，我們已經報告完了。"],["主席：好。","請洪申翰委員。"],["洪委員申翰：我請教一下。從2022年開始，因為烏俄戰爭，所以油料的成本上漲。過去兩年，我國也在處理油料成本上漲，因為當時其實有油料成本波動。那過去兩年處理的方式是什麼？是編預算還是叫中油吞？"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長。過去這兩年關於油料上漲，我們分成兩個部分來談。第一，由國防部內部先檢討有沒有適當預算可以以緩濟急、作為挹注，不足部分，也就是第二部分，我們向行政院主計總處爭取。第三就是我們跟中油協調，部分款項遞延支付。"],["洪委員申翰：對不起，我先確認一下。油料費用增加可能有兩個因素啦！第一個原因當然是烏俄戰爭之後其實油料單價提高，有這個因素嘛！對不對？"],["謝局長其賢：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：除了油料單價提高之外，第二點是我們自己可能因為共軍擾臺，飛航軍機使用油料的量也變多。"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["洪委員申翰：也就是油料費用增加可能有這兩個因素，對不對？應該是同時存在。我只是確認一下過去兩年怎麼處理國軍所使用能源支出增加的問題，後來主要是透過院編預算支應，你剛剛說一種是編預算嘛！對不對？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["洪委員申翰：那有些部分是跟中油協商，延後……"],["謝局長其賢：延後付款。"],["洪委員申翰：可是還是要付嘛！"],["謝局長其賢：還是要付的。"],["洪委員申翰：還是要付嘛！對不對？所以過去就是以這幾個作法處理嘛！對不對？"],["謝局長其賢：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：油有凍漲名單嗎？油有凍漲名單嗎？"],["林次長全能：我跟委員報告，油沒有所謂凍漲名單，因為對於油價基本上已經建立一個非常完整、明顯的機制，當油價漲跟跌的時候都有公式可計算，作適當的調漲或調降，是這樣的狀況。"],["主席：所以當然就沒有啊！油就沒有凍漲名單啊！但現在就是有學校跟醫院啊！但哪一所學校跟醫院不是行政團隊的？"],["林次長全能：我想跟委員報告，事實上這次有一個明確的方案，就是照顧民生跟弱勢，所以這一次審議會是針對農漁業、學校，醫院則沒有，社福單位也納入凍漲名單，那是考量民生或弱勢的狀況作處理。"],["主席：民生與弱勢當然可以考量啦！但現在我們的國家安全也是很重要的一環嘛！所以其實我們的提案是針對這個部分。你們想要改成什麼？"],["林次長全能：我剛才的建議是這樣：最後一段「爰此，要求」中的「要求」建議改為「建請」，然後「國防部應向行政院積極爭取」後增加「評估」。「將國防部暨所屬單位納入本次」中的「本次」要拿掉，因為本次已經沒有機會、不可能了，「本次」拿掉之後，就接「電價調整凍漲名單內」，以這樣的方式處理。"],["主席：那下一次什麼時候還要再漲？"],["林次長全能：我們下一次沒有什麼漲不漲的問題，因為電價必須由審議會調，至於審議會的部分是每年兩次，一次是4月1日，下一次是在10月1日處理。"],["主席：所以下次會納入？"],["林次長全能：如果以評估的狀況是需要在下一次……"],["主席：經濟部不要講太大聲，因為經濟部是最沒有資格講這種話的！本來針對電價也有制定公式，為什麼要這樣漲、一次漲這麼多？這部分其實是因為經濟部沒有按照步調做，所以我們今天提案的時候也希望你們尊重本委員會。如果這部分在這次沒辦法及時納入，當然我們可以同意改成這樣，不過就你說的只考量弱勢及社福等相關單位，還有什麼？"],["林次長全能：我跟委員報告，事實上，這次審議會討論到的是大方向，也就是照顧民生跟弱勢，當然每次開審議會的時候，可以就不同環境討論。","對於委員剛剛提到電價公式，如果要按照電價公式、反映全部成本的話，那可能不是只漲11%，我想這點必須很清楚地跟委員說明。"],["主席：政策的錯誤也要一起納入考量啦！今天不是只用公式來談，所以你不要在這裡談公式。我們講到公式，是指該漲的時候如果按照公式，大家當然沒話講啊！就跟油一樣，有時候漲、有時候跌，該跌的時候也會跌啊！可是電價一漲上去就可能不會跌了啊！所以就這個部分，我們才希望有一個穩定的機制。國防安全也是大家應該考量的，尤其是現在不管是用電或用油隨時都可能增加到很高的情況下，也希望行政院重視這個部分，好不好？"],["林次長全能：了解，我對國防安全完全支持，所以才建議評估、做適當處理。"],["主席：好，同意。"],["洪委員申翰：所以就是按照主席剛剛講的修正？剛剛講的是「爰此，建請國防部應向行政院積極爭取評估」，然後是「將國防部暨所屬單位納入本次電費調整凍漲名單內」，現在改成這樣？"],["主席：沒有啦！「積極爭取將國防部暨所屬單位納入後續電費調整」……"],["洪委員申翰：所以是改為「建請」嘛！"],["主席：「建請」可以啊！"],["洪委員申翰：用「建請」嘛！好不好？那就用「建請」。"],["主席：「……調整凍漲名單之內」也就是在未來的會議或評估時一起爭取納入。"],["洪委員申翰：「本次」兩個字刪掉對不對？因為已經過了。"],["楊次長基榮：對，就按照召委的意思。"],["洪委員申翰：好，那就改成「建請」，「本次」拿掉。"],["主席：「本次」已經確定了嗎？"],["林次長全能：確定，因為今天已經公告了。"],["主席：好。"],["楊次長基榮：謝謝召委，謝謝各位委員。"],["主席：宣讀一下修正文字。","修正第2段之文字：「爰此，建請國防部應向行政院積極爭取評估將國防部暨所屬單位納入後續電費調整凍漲名單內，並請於兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。」第1段照原提案通過。","修正通過。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時31分）","繼續開會（11時38分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.58784375,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.15284375,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.68721875,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.51409375,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.11596875000001,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.08909375,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.13846875,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.37846875000001,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.07284375,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.38034375,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.44784375,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.13096875000002,"end":175.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.31159375000001,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.47596875000002,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.60659375,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.87221875,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.48284375,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.05659375000002,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.21659375000002,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.43096875,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.52346875,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.51409375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.75846875000002,"end":206.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.51784375000003,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.60971875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.63846875000002,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.09659375,"end":240.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.71909375,"end":241.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.46159375000002,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.27471875,"end":250.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.86096875,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.22659375,"end":263.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.24284375,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.68534375,"end":269.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.92971875,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.47721875,"end":277.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.675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主席 邱國正"},{"start":12.868,"end":39.124,"text":"林委員好部長好部長對於您今天還是依舊來出席我們委員會本席是要為您打個氣也要為您的整個領導我們國防部來講我覺得這是個最好的表率面對壓力的時候面對困難的時候還是要挺身而出然後在您的職位上面要持續的至少我認為目前為止就像今天的報告一樣我們的國防自主很多時候我們自己的心智要夠強不過"},{"start":41.225,"end":69.431,"text":"有關於林公子的案件的部分因為攸關到的是國家安全的一個部分那麼當然本席站在國防委員會的委員的立場來說我也希望相關的單位必須要釐清因為畢竟我覺得這樣會對於整體國防來講是不是出現了一些什麼破口其實還是必須要有一些了解的那麼另外當然對於國防相關的人員當中對於所謂的保密還有安全相關的這個所謂的"},{"start":70.931,"end":86.471,"text":"對於自身或者是對於國防的部分,我覺得都還是要再教育。是,現在委員關係,而且對於很明確的指導,這都我們在檢討當中,而且要很具體將來要實踐,再次感謝委員。"},{"start":88.399,"end":102.127,"text":"部長之前王定宇委員曾經有提出來就是有關於憲兵特勤團的保險的狀況那麼當時我在台下我就非常關注這個話題原因是在於我想我們給"},{"start":103.228,"end":109.631,"text":"所有我們第一線甚至於說保家衛國的弟兄來講除了在該給我的心想該有的保障之外那麼也要讓他們無後顧之憂才會為國家來打拼我去特別調出了過去從2020年到2024年有關於憲兵特勤人員他們勤務編組的團體保險近五年的狀況如果部長無法回答的話我想請這個負責這個業務的長官來替我回應"},{"start":131.44,"end":135.202,"text":"就是從2020年我們看到這個預算不斷的往前增加到2024已經相差了4倍通常保險是這樣要不就是保險危險等級的提高保險公司認為他們無法獲利或是無法負擔所以會調高保費"},{"start":148.508,"end":150.15,"text":"另外還有一個狀況當然就是不斷的出險也就是所謂的不斷的需要理賠那麼我想就教一下為什麼會增加到4倍是因為人員變多嗎還是發生了什麼樣的狀況請問部長知道嗎我請憲兵參謀長跟您做分"},{"start":170.185,"end":177.072,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告,我們這個特勤的這個保險這個部分,因為我們這個特勤人員有變多嗎?人員沒有變多。那麼,過去幾來,我現在所記錄的資料,從2020年到2023年,理賠有出現嗎?都沒有嘛,對不對?對。"},{"start":187.182,"end":215.899,"text":"所以如果是這樣的狀況為什麼會一再流標而流標之後是不是就提高了金額我只問這個因為時間有限我們在今年一月底的時候我們有增幅預算來做投標金額好結果還是流標對不對理由是什麼包括不願意來投標的原因是什麼有沒有去詢問我們有去詢問那大部分就是表示意願不高沒有這個意願投標"},{"start":216.667,"end":216.867,"text":"知道﹖"},{"start":241.55,"end":247.214,"text":"那有沒有去洽詢公股、航庫連台產、第一產、兆豐產、華南產、第一售、台銀售跟和庫售都不願意來標嗎?不願意為我們的國家來貢獻一點包括他們不是都有所謂政策上面需要協助嗎?有去協助嗎?還是說這是一個上下交鄉賊的狀況一再流標一再墊高決標金額"},{"start":267.745,"end":296.293,"text":"有沒有去找過這些公股行庫?這些的部分我們要再下去查一下那因為我們當初我們有問了十多家那我再去清查一下有沒有這上面這幾家的公股好沒有關係本席等一下也會到財政委員會今天剛好金管會財政部都在財政委員會我也會來幫你問本席生氣的部分是今天如果連我們第一線憲兵特勤人員的保險都保不出去的時候他們怎麼樣保家衛國?"},{"start":298.383,"end":320.891,"text":"這個其實保險只是一個小小的一個新意但是如果說今天都沒有出險但是卻說不來無利可圖好如果無利可圖的話我們就應該去找公股行庫公股行庫至少有全民的資金在這裡頭他必須要負擔國家的重責大任我建議你先找這些公股行庫"},{"start":321.491,"end":334.44,"text":"如果他們一樣say no的話那麼我們好好的要問一下財政部要問一下金管會保險局到底發生什麼事情好嗎但是不要讓我合理的懷疑認為這是一種故意流標的方式想想看同樣的人數沒有出現可以從104萬現在墊高到371萬還流標然後招標的金額從175萬現在到506萬我知道物價會飛漲但是這是不是漲得太離譜"},{"start":353.675,"end":375.661,"text":"所以部長你怎麼看?我現在點出來的確是關鍵問題我現在要確定一下這邊所謂的公家中台產或地產等等我記得印象上我們軍中有很多跟他們都有在合作的所以請憲兵確認以後通通找過他們而他們有什麼困難再請委員來幫忙"},{"start":378.342,"end":393.791,"text":"本席強調的重點就是保險確實他會做一些風險評估經過精算之後他會來決定我們的保險金額但是都沒有出現人員沒有增加這中間我合理的必須懷疑"},{"start":394.411,"end":394.671,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":410.202,"end":429.521,"text":"第一線國軍必須要給他們夠多的保障讓他們才能夠無後顧之憂下一個我要請問的當然就是有關於無人機的部分了剛剛前面也都有委員來說了那麼這個無人機所曝光的畫面我們現在確定是民用的無人機那如果是確定是民用的無人機嗎部長"},{"start":434.988,"end":445.463,"text":"是不是民用的無人機就無法可管,或者是說就撇開我們過去有關於如何反擊或反制的部分,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":446.084,"end":473.449,"text":"不是,我跟委員報告,不管民用軍用,例如預約我們是上空就代表一個侵犯嘛,那我們搞不清楚他什麼民用軍用的,我把當初他已經發動第一級這種概念,但我剛剛已經報告我承認這件事情我們訓練不夠周延,規定都有,程序步驟也都明定,但他的經防部這地方沒有去落實推動,這個我要負責,但我會追責,這個特別跟委員做個說明。"},{"start":474.209,"end":481.691,"text":"好,因為我看到的是媒體曝光之後當然媒體應該有去問軍防部所以就有了一個這樣的新聞稿說什麼類似騷擾啊那麼會依自我防衛的原則然後依這個所謂的威脅的程度會採取一定的行動但是一定的行動到底是什麼呢本席特別去找了一個無人機處置的報告這是去年11月當時因為也發生一些無人機的狀況所以當時就有四個步驟"},{"start":504.076,"end":516.3,"text":"無人機的處置作為包括識別監控第二個是告警通報第三個就是防衛涉及第四個就是安全示警就以我們看到的這樣一個狀況的時候啊那麼目前這個SOP就像剛剛部長您所說的"},{"start":521.101,"end":536.014,"text":"是訓練不夠還是說他們根本無法認知到底應該要進行到哪一個步驟又或者是說當時我們看到這個照片當然對這位弟兄有點不好意思但是可以感受的到是他們確實是有發現無人機了那麼從金防部3月30號的新聞稿其實我感受不到是他們有認為這有威脅嗎或者是認為就只是看過就算了那麼"},{"start":547.203,"end":571.665,"text":"對於4個月前,就是去年11月當時所提出來的這4個作為,他們有做嗎?還是說真的只是給我們這個國防外交委員會一份報告,但是事實上這個步驟並沒有落實下去?我跟委員報告說,落實不落實這就關鍵。做,它有定,但你要定出規則你還是要演練,這方面一定出了問題。"},{"start":573.669,"end":600.539,"text":"那所以我想要請那個軍防部的就是那如果說現在沒有演練還是說曾經演練過因為基本上無人機的侵擾或者是干擾甚至於威脅已經是越來越頻繁那麼在面對這樣的狀況的時候應該是要針對像我們上個禮拜有特別講到的無人機我們都需要有這個操作手要有訓練的時候那麼非操作手者的這些"},{"start":601.559,"end":616.193,"text":"彭澤們同胞們這個國軍弟兄們他們是不是有類似的課程跟訓練在做反制還是說其實只是看到這樣的情況給了委員會的委員一份報告之後沒有在實質訓練有沒有現在這樣子做反制訓練的相關的課程呢"},{"start":620.117,"end":635.271,"text":"我跟委員報告,他有做,他現在也要強化,但是速度以前就要求了,等到發生再補強,講起來也對好,就亡羊補牢,但這不是辦法,等到發生再來補強就沒有意義了。"},{"start":635.911,"end":655.96,"text":"所以我還是跟委員報告也是很抱歉這也是我們國防部應該要做而沒有做好的我們強化但是剛剛委員講說是每個非操作手段他也要去練因為這是反制的東西反制的方法不管你會不會操作你只要這個程序步驟知道該打這個訊號彈的該要射擊的這個是講得很明確的我們"},{"start":660.282,"end":675.93,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":675.93,"end":678.351,"text":"國內本島的部分有沒有什麼樣的區域因為我覺得一時間全部叫大家來上課包括可能反制的器材或者是反制的設備或是反制的師資教練都不一定夠對部長來講有沒有幾個先行的好好真的認真尤其是我們認為這個無人機出現的機率很高的那麼部長這裡有沒有一個想法是希望從哪邊"},{"start":703.086,"end":709.61,"text":"有,有,首當其衝就外離島嘛這已經發生過兩件事情還有就本島有關係機場或雷達站重點我們把它設為優先的因為這兩家飛機來以後對我們任務的執行都有問題那其他的話一般部隊那是門禁安全的一個問題但是每個都有訓練的"},{"start":733.206,"end":752.14,"text":"所以我們國防部上工也曾經有發掘過,干擾掉下去交給警察,這個我們要不停的演練好,那麼我希望這個部分因為真的無人機的部分其實對於台灣的侵擾是越來越明確越來越多,那麼也請部長海槍灣的單位能夠多留意這個部分,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0f65fe00c9887decaee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a62904d3b4743e67c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:00:02 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主委啊這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":419.824,"end":447.119,"text":"報告委員,我想站在金管會立場,召委要求我們說要安排見財委會的新委員。我想我們對這個意見,我們盡量要去處理。但是如果大家這次意見,早上我跟記者報告,如果大家覺得各方委員對這個意見有不同的意見,我們會以後會做跟周委員的處理。這個齁,要有一點這個sense在啦。因為他告訴我們是財委會員,並沒有告訴我們是特定政黨的委員。"},{"start":447.93,"end":453.482,"text":"到了發現之後才發現說只有在野黨的立委沒有民進黨的立委那局長不會覺得很奇怪嗎這會不會是一場鴻門宴還是這兩個小時還是吃得很開心"},{"start":460.404,"end":482.214,"text":"好,請教一下這個主委這個新光還有山上人壽的這個資本市足率的這個不足的問題要怎麼去解決那有三個方向第一個是大股東現金增資呢那還是呢子公司上繳盈餘那還是呢發行普通股項小股東募集資金都有可能"},{"start":482.862,"end":500.558,"text":"對有可能那主委比較prefer哪一個方式我沒有prefer我就是看因為您今天詮詢我這個問題不同的公司不同的階段那就是這兩家公司嘛這個星光你有找過他們的嘛找過很多次了找過很多次了那他們要提出什麼樣的方法勒"},{"start":503.105,"end":503.986,"text":"那主委是不是認為說這個大股東要這個現金增資比較合適?"},{"start":518.41,"end":534.727,"text":"我認為主要股東應該承擔一個維護保護責任的重要的一個義務所以我覺得應該要優先展現這個承諾那這個你講的這樣就講的還蠻明顯的那我接下來我再問一下今天跟社宅有關係的"},{"start":537.357,"end":543.862,"text":"過去我發現說我們這個受選業投資在公共建設的情況這個金額佔的比例相當的低2023年1300億2022年931億這等於是說受選業者寧願是投資國外的也不願意來投資國內的公共建設本席查了一個資料受選業者在去年投資了1321億在俄羅斯的國債"},{"start":566.547,"end":575.304,"text":"等於是說我們的受選業者投資俄羅斯的國債比投資國內公共建設還多,這像話嗎?你投資這個俄羅斯人要去打烏克蘭喔?"},{"start":577.062,"end":583.744,"text":"我的重點在於因為那時候當然投資的時候還沒有打烏克蘭打烏克蘭那也不可能去投資我的問題在於說投資國外的這個資金的比例比投資國內公共建設還高"},{"start":604.409,"end":627.417,"text":"我們到去年年底保險業的資金有32兆其中有7成是投資國外然後投資國外的公共建設達到7500億投資台灣的公共建設才1300億那我就先請教一下主委了要不要訂出一個KPI啊就是說未來比如說"},{"start":628.59,"end":647.659,"text":"三年內那受險業資金要投入這一個多少比例到我們公共建設啊不然你再投資國外還是買國外的這一個債券那結果不投入這一個我們台灣的公共建設過去啊你們給他的那一個風險係數是太高了他們也不願意那現在是有降低了那有沒有一個KPI出來"},{"start":649.056,"end":677.942,"text":"報告委員我要跟您報告我們可以鼓勵但是不能去強迫當然啊你的鼓勵就具有喊話的性質啊你的喊話大家就會聽了啊報告委員喊話不一定會聽因為公共建設給的收益跟年期跟固定收益是不一樣的保險業要跟他的商品要去做match如果今天這個喊話或是說拜託那都沒有用的話我們今天開這個會就沒有用了啊"},{"start":678.567,"end":689.476,"text":"報告委員我們現在提供的就是誘因機制然後剛才國財委有提醒國發會建立一個平台供需保險業需要什麼樣的投資的性質的商品"},{"start":695.175,"end":708.941,"text":"今天重點就是說看你們要提供什麼樣的誘因讓這個受險業的資金能夠留在國內投資公共建設這個是今天開會最主要的用意就在這邊嘛所以我才說那你未來是不是能夠訂出一個KPI出來啊"},{"start":710.828,"end":711.508,"text":"主席,我30秒就好,那請內政部的花次長"},{"start":738.639,"end":754.327,"text":"市長,上個禮拜五有在我們三重這個仁義段有召開一個社宅的公聽會然後呢我不知道你知道的結果在與會有一些當地的居民有不同的意見跟看法那當然我們的立場是支持我們政府蓋社宅"},{"start":754.987,"end":782.673,"text":"但是呢 該設宅的時候呢因為你們提出來那個計畫人藝段那個計畫沒有相關的這個公共設施公益設施在那我知道說你們有很多的其他的這個社會住宅都有類似的這些公益設施在那我是希望你們回去檢討一下這個在人藝段的這個設宅是不是能夠把公益設施納進去這個讓附近的居民把這一個社會住宅一起納進來是一個共融最後的一個共融的一個結果"},{"start":783.683,"end":804.428,"text":"報告委員,社宅一定是百分之百都是公益設施沒有啦沒有公益設施啦當整棟就公益設施你知道我在問就是說有沒有什麼公坡、公幼之類的啦如果是要百分之要提供一個獨立的特許的村里活動中心那是不可能的我不是指村里活動中心啦如果是其他的都可以討論都可以討論嘛因為我看你們很多社宅都有類似的設施啊"},{"start":805.829,"end":807.77,"text":"謝謝李坤城委員的質詢,我們休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"150751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03aca791830a9d18bee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a60754f09c682f03845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:47:48 - 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Equity FundEquityPrivate Equity FundEquity Fund對,那不屬於金管會我們沒有管過金管所以他的主管機關就可以變成國發會好,等一下來,我們請國發會部主委講一下你們現在已經確認國發會是變成PP Fund的主管機關了嗎?"},{"start":149.8,"end":172.578,"text":"基本上是的基本上不要基本上是不是是所以你們有查核機制嗎國分會是屬於之前是輔導所以以未來這個private Equity Fund它裡面一樣有運作一樣裡面有沒有內線交易一樣裡面會不會要有這個金融檢查你們有這些相關的機制嗎"},{"start":174.079,"end":201.881,"text":"我們基本上就是我們會協同那個金管會協同金管會因為你沒有經檢權所以啊來金管會黃主委你們不要再鬧笑話了這是最近有一些國際金融的人士老講這個新聞我根本連看都沒看到他們就給我說笑死人了全世界的批放不是由中央銀行就是由那個金融機構主管機關來管只有我們用國發會"},{"start":203.622,"end":226.917,"text":"這到底是什麼樣的機制你們要不要搞清楚如果今天主委說因為在政交法裡面對於私募股權沒有放在政交法裡面你們就不管可是過去有啊你們可以解釋不是嗎對不對所以你現在要尊重你政交法裡面有沒有把私募股權放進去這一點我是今天因為時間有限我還有其他要問"},{"start":228.813,"end":244.387,"text":"這個不要去鬧國際笑話如果全世界都是由主管金融主管機關在管我們跑到國發會是什麼意思啊國發會是輔導他有輔導的功能但是輔導跟管理還是兩碼子事我剛剛不講嗎他以後不要做金融檢查"},{"start":245.208,"end":270.934,"text":"你擔保他沒有這個有違反政交法的事情嗎?你擔保他沒有那個內線交易嗎?你擔保他沒有那個損害那個消費者投資人的事情嗎?以後誰來檢查?再來由今晚會檢查你用什麼角色檢查?所以這一點我是今天把它提出來如果有一個新的成立一個協會不能因為由台山,台山是國發會所投資的然後他就拍馬屁讓國發會來當主管機關"},{"start":273.746,"end":276.581,"text":"讓國際化上一個大笑話好再來"},{"start":278.32,"end":305.946,"text":"剛才有談到00940今天呢眾所矚目因為第一天的掛牌交易那也很不幸啊他今天第一天就掛那個跌破淨值那也可以看到在市場上有一些他們在揮血的有一些大戶都故意掛在9.87啊87量呢都是87張在某一個程度也是要可能是要消遣一下"},{"start":306.906,"end":327.509,"text":"广大的可能他們會覺得這個可能會變成韭菜被收割的那如果繼續的下跌恐怕對於高達70萬的投資人來講可能他們覺得會很驚心動魄我們之前就有講到現在ETF如此的資金大量的流入ETF"},{"start":328.51,"end":348.565,"text":"是國內的一個資金動能資金是充沛的可是我們的投資的管道卻是有限的所以來我看下一頁今天我們特別提到我們要怎麼樣把它引導到社會住宅可是事實上整個的現在的"},{"start":349.085,"end":349.125,"text":"王鴻薇"},{"start":369.426,"end":391.455,"text":"但是同樣的主計處卻下修了今年的民間的投資率今年民間投資率事實上是被主計處他的估計是腰斬的從原來3.17現在修正到1.45所以這個是整體的其實老講我就是整個行政院未來的新政府應該整個的去"},{"start":392.435,"end":392.815,"text":"主席王鴻薇議員"},{"start":421.406,"end":437.915,"text":"財卷叫做什麼財我忘記了什麼永續債什麼之類的那財卷也不是第一次但是我想請問一下在你們發布要發行這個財卷之前有沒有跟金管會跟中央銀行開過會跟財政部開過會"},{"start":441.398,"end":451.766,"text":"王委員第一個我們並沒有對外發布我們要發債券但是兩年來我們其實跟很多銀行跟金管會其實我們都私下都有溝通過有沒有找央行嘛有沒有找財政部嘛有沒有找金管會私下私下討論從來沒有正式的召開過會議"},{"start":469.64,"end":493.377,"text":"從來never召開過正式的會議針對這個是大事欸所以說我們就在評估所以我們是用評估的方式來討論好只是評估然後我看你說執行金管會與協助發債券不單純是金管會啦是是還有中央銀行跟財政部是因為它有競合的關係嘛是是中央銀行有它的貨幣政策嘛是對不對是然後財政部也有它發債的這個需求嘛甚至主計處都要進來是"},{"start":494.978,"end":521.271,"text":"所以我有點意外今天都已經作為正式的報告而且要一兆元的融資金額是非常非常大的如果按照這樣子下去你們恐怕會成為非營業基金裡面最大的這個負債因為你們發債嘛 對不對融資也好或發債也好那請問一下你們要發這個永續發展債券準備發多少錢"},{"start":522.278,"end":526.261,"text":"所以次長你恐怕針對於金融市場除非金融市場把我們政府的話當成就是我不想講很難聽的話啦來不用理他可是一般來說政府要發這麼大金額的公債"},{"start":550.782,"end":551.562,"text":"你大概每一年會多少?"},{"start":576.056,"end":591.824,"text":"然後有沒有跟中央銀行有沒有跟金管會聯絡過結果都沒有我覺得這變成一個不曉得什麼時候才會落實我時間暫停一下我今天要特別講剛才我們也看到有其他的委員在詢問說我們"},{"start":594.845,"end":621.914,"text":"羅明財操委找我們幾位委員還有找這個保險局還有跟業者一起參與我覺得這個是非常正常的事情我跟大家講我同樣這一段時間我有受到包含我們的受險員工的聯合工會八大行窟的員工工會來跟我澄清來說明他們的需求"},{"start":622.85,"end":640.364,"text":"我已經提案了針對受險員工的有關於他的一些勞資的權益要求金管會要會同勞動部來做修正這個我已經正式提案這個是在今天被爆料之前不是為了因應今天的爆料"},{"start":641.064,"end":664.668,"text":"同樣的銀行約工會也跟我們提出了長期以來他們跟財政部爭取一直遲遲都沒有辦法達成的比如說他們覺得一國兩制生育的補助就是不一樣跟其他跟兆豐銀行、第一銀行、華南銀行通通不一樣那我們也決定要幫他提案所以對於立法委員來說我們今天要進入財委會"},{"start":668.829,"end":681.44,"text":"要聽業者的意見也要聽員工的意見誰的意見有道理我們要幫他們爭取應該有的權益有什麼問題所以我要在這邊特別的強調如果拿這個做什麼樣的操作"},{"start":686.118,"end":688.539,"text":"謝謝王鴻薇的諮詢,接著我們請李坤城委員的諮詢"},{"start":724.471,"end":724.672,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03509ff8c858328f6ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a69f71be98fdbdd0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:36:27 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所以我們特別從這個數字知道我們最關心的就是年輕人因為年輕人在台灣住不起生不起養不起"},{"start":63.633,"end":79.344,"text":"這個是國安的重大危機啊所以我們要來大力的來支持年輕人多多來幫助他們另外一個數字是30歲到40歲有沒有統計過年輕人自有自購房屋的比率是多少"},{"start":82.012,"end":97.629,"text":"其實一般來講我剛剛提到全國的自有率是大概將近9成嘛那年紀越高的自有率相對起來就會越高啦那20、30、30、40它的比例我們再查一下再跟委員報告好嗎"},{"start":98.129,"end":113.278,"text":"是你剛剛說90%以上事實上這不是我們關係的數字啊因為你說張忠謀也好郭台銘也好他有10個房子20個房子不是是所有的家庭台灣所有的家庭有將近9成是擁有自由住宅"},{"start":114.058,"end":141.287,"text":"對,所以我們現在最擔心的就是那10%可是往下延伸來推的話20歲到40歲他那個數字是會明顯偏高的不是10%可能啦,但是他的父母可能還有不少房子啦那父母是父母的啊天下有很多的年輕人啊自己還是要支持起立啊當然當然,大家都要努力所以我們今天講說居住爭議百萬的社宅現在距離目標還差多少"},{"start":143.22,"end":167.252,"text":"到今年底的8020萬戶我們會達標我們看到整個數字讓人很擔心比如說租房子很多年輕人北上在雙北、在桃園、在基隆他們有一個工作很不容易可是微薄的薪資光是要付房租就付不起現在請問一下最近租金有沒有飆漲"},{"start":169.686,"end":194.028,"text":"當然租金持續上漲這是一個常態那最近幾年租金上漲的幅度是稍微比過去高一些當然主席總署的資料一年是2.6個百分點其實也還沒有到飆漲但是確實比過去漲幅來得高一些一個年輕人如果在台北市平均的薪資如果是三萬八那請問他租一個房子要花多少錢"},{"start":196.263,"end":223.808,"text":"臺北的房價當然市中心區跟郊區市中心區市中心區當然一坪一般來講現在可能一坪要到1700到2000塊左右所以住一個房子要多少錢當然就是說你有沒有必要住在市中心區的問題因為你住到內湖北投甚至在新北跟你住到大安那個租金可能是倍數的一個差別所以市長年輕的時間就是金錢當然他能"},{"start":224.724,"end":241.269,"text":"主宰離工作環境越近的地方．他越有更多的時間．充裕的時間．是．所以這也是我們特別今天．因為有TPAS的協助．其實現在政府很多元的在協助年輕人．好．那如果說年輕人會樂於．"},{"start":244.127,"end":264.563,"text":"感到政府的支持是開心的是滿意的那你就不要蓋了啊不是這樣啦當然我們都知道現在年輕人確實比我們年輕的時候辛苦很多那這個壓力我們都看到所以說拼了命我們在蓋我們拼了命所以說像租金補貼50萬戶你還是趕不上那個進度所以租金補貼50萬戶今年也會達標租金補貼50萬戶今年也會達標你們感覺市長你是覺得是缺錢還是缺人"},{"start":269.767,"end":272.609,"text":"其實台灣很有錢有錢的資金吶包括這個超額儲蓄你知道手上大概超過多少"},{"start":291.088,"end":308.861,"text":"請國會副主任這數據應該都有吧?這最近幾年大概每年大概都有3兆左右的套額儲蓄那你知道保險業的資金總資金有多少?好像30多億35兆30多兆"},{"start":312.425,"end":334.067,"text":"因為國內有很多的資金很多投資的管道又不多所以之前很多業者根本反映兩件事情就是這些那麼多的閒置的資金可不可以開創一些好的投資管道讓他們回來在台灣投資"},{"start":335.228,"end":348.269,"text":"第二個這些業者比較關心的問題就是保金保貸光是這些會員就有38萬人還有不包括同仁他們都是面臨一個問題加薪的問題"},{"start":349.522,"end":370.308,"text":"怎麼照顧員工來加薪這應該要有個良性的循環所以不曉得高副主委你們怎麼樣有效把這些資金面引導到正確的方向比如說新加坡好了為什麼新加坡的主屋他做得很成功難道你們不能比照辦理嗎"},{"start":372.244,"end":390.794,"text":"響鐘。響鐘。"},{"start":390.794,"end":392.015,"text":"主席可不可以請金管會"},{"start":414.275,"end":433.857,"text":"主委有請黃天牧主委還有財政部吧財政部莊部長財政部莊部長莊委長你好事實上我們在立法院這裡開會常常聽不到業者的聲音所以我們也希望說能多多一些交流多多來溝通"},{"start":435.58,"end":454.219,"text":"主委對於這些產業是採取一個積極關心、輔導的立場還是不希望他們成長?作為一個監理機關要關心但是也保持距離這是必然的"},{"start":456.208,"end":471.881,"text":"剛剛提到的就是海外的這些資金啊怎麼樣有效的引導回來剛剛高副主委也講如何有效把這些資金引導回來台灣這是很重要的事情啊保險法需要做什麼樣的修改"},{"start":473.407,"end":474.007,"text":"主委,您的立場是會多多來照顧這些所有的產業嗎?"},{"start":501.633,"end":502.574,"text":"國內大概就是保守有餘"},{"start":521.072,"end":532.723,"text":"我希望主委能多多參考新加坡的做法他們不論是監體機關也好或是政府單位也好常常跟民間的業者有良性的溝通"},{"start":533.604,"end":558.28,"text":"當然在溝通的同時也應該多聊聊怎麼樣來幫助員工提高他們的薪資過去新加坡所有的平均包括金融業的薪資從大概15年前到現在已經成長了大概兩倍多主委為什麼國內的員工國內認真打拚的這些年輕人薪水都漲不上去呢"},{"start":559.817,"end":583.709,"text":"委員如果這分兩方面如果是上市位公司的部分我們透過用英的機制透過公開揭露讓上市位公司有獲利的能夠提升他的員工的薪水如果是金融業的話其實金融業的待遇相對來講我們這幾年都有獲利我想大家看到其實也都有增加的所以我想不同的上市位公司跟金融業兩個不同的方法"},{"start":585.33,"end":613.338,"text":"主委我們需要力道能大一點因為這個薪資的上漲永遠追不上物價的上漲人民還是苦哈哈是我想另外我們有金融總會也定期會跟業者去做溝通的另外這有關00940這個高股息的ETF的投資今天一掛上市以後就"},{"start":614.44,"end":622.523,"text":"下跌,將會不會影響到40萬個投資人的權益?所以是不是現在有持股的投資人不要急著賣?"},{"start":637.117,"end":638.338,"text":"謝謝羅明才召委的質詢請接著我們請王宏威委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150749","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150749","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c00252e93d41695413ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a61b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:24:07 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"我想這個是並進的啦政府部門"},{"start":547.033,"end":570.568,"text":"我們也非常努力的在推動新建社會住宅那如果民間要投資那也很好所以我們在出產法裡面把相關的法制的部分都把它齊備那還可以鼓勵民間來做投資所以說部長你也會納進來你也會這樣子一個參考我們出產法裡面已經有把這些相關的規範納進來那為什麼你們還要考慮就是用一兆的這個基金花型一兆的這個基金呢"},{"start":571.408,"end":589.502,"text":"我想說是兩不並進因為政府也要非常努力就是說在民間還沒有要投資進來之前政府還是非常努力像內政部方努力的在做這件事情所以就是說變成是各種的一個面向你們都要去討論去考慮 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的"},{"start":591.704,"end":611.145,"text":"現有的社會住宅的一個規定嚴格我們怎麼樣來解決因為我們聽到了很多就是說局需要這個申請那個社宅的人他們一直都抽不到還有就是抽到的人認為就是說他的環形跟這個租金跟這個個案"},{"start":611.705,"end":611.725,"text":"：賴惠員："},{"start":633.999,"end":634.019,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":652.555,"end":672.38,"text":"所以說你多了以後是不是你的考慮就是有一個多元的一個方法讓需要人還有就是說我需要那個坪數大的我需要坪數小的就是我就是可以就是依我自己的一個需要來用呢還是會有一些規定啦因為你說兩個人你就要住30坪那可能"},{"start":673.34,"end":676.282,"text":"所以我在這裡本席要求內政部就是透過評估那各類的民間參與的一個模式我們希望投入興建社會住宅的一個可行性"},{"start":696.075,"end":717.273,"text":"那也拜託內政部就是檢討目前的一個社宅入住的一個標準那對於就是諸弱勢的這些族群提出優先的一個入住的一個方案那也拜託財政部評估是不是有機會由公股、行戶、統籌募集建設的資金的一個可行性那請一個院內提出書面報告謝謝"},{"start":718.314,"end":727.266,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝賴惠文委員質詢緊接著我們請羅明才委員質詢再接著我們在李昆城委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"150748","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150748","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0681a3673eddbd16cee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6e618dc1a809a36915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:12:00 - 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就可以做決定的"},{"start":82.796,"end":93.421,"text":"我覺得這件事情 證交稅減半這件事情其實知識體大 任何一個結論或訊息其實都會造成股市的影響"},{"start":95.478,"end":123.36,"text":"包括部長說他不知道我覺得這個事情就大條因為我覺得這種事情應該事前要做很多內部充分的溝通我覺得這個才不會對因為我們從媒體上看到萬一結論是怎麼樣那又再問從媒體又再問部長或主委你們的想法怎麼樣如果意見不合後面造成股市的風吹草動影響是非常大的這是第一點我要提醒你們未來恐怕類似相關的會議可能兩位都要"},{"start":123.98,"end":136.273,"text":"有充分的溝通。第二,再延長五年,這句句提出來,再延長五年,你們的看法是怎麼樣?有特別的理由嗎?"},{"start":136.273,"end":136.453,"text":"主委。"},{"start":139.106,"end":167.187,"text":"因為從過去從17年那時候是延長一年從2018年4月28年那時候是延長3.8年那後來延長三年2022年1月1號我們提到是延長三年這一次我看到從媒體上看到是說要延長五年五年有特別的理由嗎我想其實就券商來講他希望常態化但是我們覺得不太可能就是需要一個期間所以大概就提出五年這個方案"},{"start":168.43,"end":187.7,"text":"但是這個方案其實坦白說我跟委員報告部長我大概知道你們的目標是希望常態化但你也知道不太可能我今天沒有要就到底要不要常態化這件事情跟你們做討論因為從過去已經實施有7年半當沖增加稅減半接下來再5年的話加起來就是12年"},{"start":192.483,"end":209.455,"text":"其實未來我相信沒有任何一個今晚會的主委跟財政部長敢碰這個天條說要取消或怎麼樣這個天條這是一個很重大的事情但是我也要提醒包括我們在房租稅裡面也有針對自住或出租"},{"start":210.296,"end":211.817,"text":"我希望可以朝這一點去做思考好不好"},{"start":230.414,"end":234.697,"text":"第二點我要問的就是有關部長你可以請回我要請問主委喔"},{"start":249.586,"end":250.166,"text":"主委,您滿不滿意?"},{"start":280.425,"end":307.504,"text":"當然有增資是正面的可是他這個增資的額度目前看起來並不能夠促成他今年6月底達到他的資本市主率得到合規的200那後續還有什麼樣的工具或者是我們還沒有收到他的董事會記錄那我其實我們上面前面已經有請請兩位公司的董事長陳述意見後續依法辦理"},{"start":308.561,"end":331.161,"text":"不過我覺得站在保護的立場我覺得主委你這一次的立場踩得非常清楚這也是我覺得非常敬佩的地方你的老師侯錦英老師送給你一隻琉璃獅子就是鼓勵你該兇的時候要兇但你這一次是不怒而為從上一次你跟我溝通之後他們也在努力所以我覺得"},{"start":332.502,"end":360.186,"text":"這對所有的保護來說這是一個正面的方向所以我們也期待就是無論未來在整個金管會從保護的權益立場上還有整個國家金融穩定的角度上我覺得主委的態度其實非常重要那這一點我也給主委肯定那接下來我要請是不是請慈英先暫停我請內政部的政次花政次"},{"start":365.118,"end":369.385,"text":"主委,您請回,沒關係。我是不是可以請部長?莊部長。"},{"start":379.518,"end":407.597,"text":"鄭次你很清楚我長期在基層你見過我非常多次我長期非常關心居住正義它也是社會正義當中落實社會正義當中最重要的一環兩位總統無論蔡英文到賴清德對於設宅的興建設宅的達成率都非常的關注設宅最後無論是完工的興建中的規劃中的包租代管"},{"start":408.337,"end":425.321,"text":"都算上去沒有規劃中的好沒關係蔡英文20萬的目標那賴清德在這一次選舉的時候也強化也強調他要包含他要達到100萬那這100萬有沒有包含蔡英文的20萬當然有是累積的當然就是累積所以這個是累積上去的是"},{"start":435.031,"end":454.139,"text":"好,那這個20萬戶,這100萬戶到底有沒有辦法做得到?會,會達標。好,那我就有一個問題喔,剛剛有幾位委員也強調包租代管這件事情。包租代管其實也是在興建過程還過渡時期它非常重要的一個,因為我看到各縣市有幾個縣市做得不錯。是。"},{"start":455.419,"end":474.174,"text":"那有幾個縣市我覺得政府在工具上恐怕都要給更多的鼓勵跟獎勵因為它是一個過渡時我們大家都知道徵收土地或要蓋都要跟居民做溝通你知道那個過程非常冗長也非常困難我絕對支持包租代管我也支持設宅的政策"},{"start":475.575,"end":491.718,"text":"那包租貸款其實包括在蔡英文的20萬戶裡面她包租貸款的比例佔了43.69也就是說包租貸款的政策其實也非常的重要我說到這邊你同意嗎?同意那我覺得包租貸款的"},{"start":492.419,"end":492.719,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":510.069,"end":535.958,"text":"各縣市的租金不同以台北市跟苗栗也好你非常清楚所以包租代管我們要在各縣市拉高這個我們恐怕就要給更多的優惠之前我詢問部長部長給我的回應是說我說可不可以有各縣市的差異譬如說以台北市六都來說租金比較高我們是不是要提高部長給我的意見是說不可能不用"},{"start":536.678,"end":565.055,"text":"那我覺得那落實一百萬戶的這個社宅包租代管這恐怕就會非常的困難事實上我也查到了我們過去其實有幾次有調整這個免稅額包租代管的免稅額從一萬到一萬五其實都有所以有沒有可能我們要落實包租代管的政策把這個數字在各縣市都有機會拉高"},{"start":566.056,"end":587.945,"text":"我們可不可以有機會再討論那個免稅額的部分否則你一萬五在台北市可能租不到十坪一個家庭怎麼住得進去免稅額是房東的免稅額啦房東的免稅額當然是房東的免稅我們要鼓勵房東把他空屋丟出來租嘛那你如果沒有給足夠的誘因他不會丟出來嘛"},{"start":589.735,"end":612.366,"text":"各位委員報告其實現在的誘因其實已經相當相當好了啦當然房東會期待說我通通不要繳稅會更好其實租金很多都是隱形的經濟收入但是他要丟出來配合社宅包租代管的政策所以我才提出來我支持賴清德的一百萬戶我也希望能做得成功因為各政黨總統候選都有提出來"},{"start":613.907,"end":637.474,"text":"你也同意包租貸款成功必須要有更多的誘因那我覺得我們過去有從一萬條到一萬五我們有沒有可能再提高這個部分其實比較複雜啦因為其實他不是說因為齊頭市平等還是有他的我沒有要各縣市就是說齊頭市的平等我們可以提高譬如說現在是一萬五未來有沒有可能提到兩萬或兩萬五"},{"start":640.523,"end":658.503,"text":"市長,過渡時期當你還沒有興建完成的時候你就需要更多的人加入包租代管房東加入包租代管所以我才提出來這個過渡時期哪怕是兩年、三年或五年你需要有更多的政策工具讓更多的房東願意把房子丟進來"},{"start":659.924,"end":688.457,"text":"做社宅出租您了解我的意思嗎?其實以現在報告館推動的進度看來現在的租稅優惠房東還蠻認同的啦所以說我覺得這部分要滾動你去觀察為什麼台北市會這麼少但是很多人想加進來所以我才認為這是一個誘因我不敢講說差異性但是至少我們過去有從一萬提到一萬五那我們再把它拉高到兩萬說不定就有更多的人願意把這個房子丟出來做入社宅的出租"},{"start":688.837,"end":712.203,"text":"我希望這個政策好好去考慮因為現在房租現在這幾年包括今天我看到房租的價格出租的價格是創歷年來的新高27年來的新高所以我覺得這一塊恐怕是你們要去考量的地方謝謝委員支持我們會謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢接著我們請戴惠文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01f94e46fb0df2188ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a685ef96e8213ea40c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:00:21 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超過合理標準30%第4社會住宅率的重簽率非常之低 台北只有5.7% 新北13.95% 六都平均不到15%"},{"start":64.272,"end":87.631,"text":"這是公僕應求嘛大家都想要去住而且他最多最多只能住多少年住6年若是現在可以到12年若是的部分但一般而言3加3是6年那也就是說呢你如果要達到呢即便買不到房子你要達到另一個可能性就租者有其屋的這種目標的話也是也很看起來非常的遙遠那我稍微去看了一下齁"},{"start":89.934,"end":100.366,"text":"這個520的新的總統他要定出一個25萬戶的這個目標以照目前為止這個速度你真的有把握在後面的4年當中25萬戶全部完工嗎?"},{"start":102.487,"end":125.442,"text":"不是晚購跟委員報告：其實蓋房子就是需要時間：包括決標之後：包括決標：依照你的定義如果包括決標之後：可以：可以喔：你這種有信心先好了我對你非常：不過跟委員報告可是就實際上：我們現在一年其實可以決標近兩萬戶因為前面比較慢現在組織已經建立起來部隊建立起來所以一年可以決標近兩萬戶現在速度有在加快"},{"start":126.002,"end":150.148,"text":"所以說後面8年其實乘以2是16萬所以12加16其實可以到28啦所以我們到25花次我相信業務選手可能會有加速的效果但是就實務上來說本席在推動這個社會住宅爭取的過程當中在土地取得的部分往往要花很多的時間啦是 土地才是關鍵一面是台塘的土地來取得的話你都要經過專案的變更花費不少的時間"},{"start":152.489,"end":170.203,"text":"但是現在其實這個機制也都建立起來所以說為什麼我們要把整開區施力重劃區段徵收要要求3%到5%要未來作為社會主宰儲備用地我跟你講你那底廢地的3%到5%對你這個說法來說的話以前台南市政府現在就有把新的開發區的底廢地5%要拿出來興建的時候"},{"start":171.482,"end":188.614,"text":"不好意思,旁邊的住宅全部都反對啊。旁邊的住宅全部都反對,你根本蓋不成。這就是問題出於在速度的部分啊。花次,也就是說你將來的這個新的開發區的5%的話,你如果沒有蓋在建商之前的話,你蓋在建商之後,我跟你講,你那5%不會啦,不會不會不會。"},{"start":191.235,"end":196.877,"text":"那是過去的一些不當的標籤觀念,其實現在社宅的品質越來越好啊。"},{"start":216.065,"end":233.837,"text":"這有什麼好處避免因為標籤化沒有辦法蓋的城避免還有什麼你真正社會住宅你速度要加快才能達到壓抑房地價的效果嘛是不是嗎你另一個目標是這樣子啊所以速度慢就是整個社會住宅目前令人最憂心的地方有兩個數字讓花次參考一下"},{"start":235.619,"end":252.793,"text":"首先,如果從時間的建造方式,你剛剛這樣講,我事實上仔細去推,推起來的結果,你如果說用這個時間的壓力來算的話,你至少要花多少時間呢?要花將近半世紀以上才有可能。不會,不會,我認為這個計算有問題。"},{"start":254.655,"end":254.855,"text":"主席"},{"start":272.333,"end":301.352,"text":"第一個我跟委員報告社宅新建完工的時間大概就是那個例如說1、2年可能再加4到5年這12萬就會完工了那就是加4到5年因為蓋房子需要這樣的時間所以不會到51年這樣對我剛剛就看到財政部財政部就舉一個例子我請部長上來一下財政部剛剛就有一個BOT的案子BOT的案子以新北市的案子當中他3年就完工了嘛那為什麼有其他的方式可以複製的情況底下可以速度之下會讓民間的力量導入"},{"start":303.113,"end":328.587,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法加強的推動呢?這個部分其實是那個年代因為不缺工不缺料 經營造成本很低所以說那時候是可以比較快那如果是諸多東西推動的話 讓人家擔心這個情況沒有辦法改善嗎?這個不會 不會 不會 這個我很放心 那另外錢的部分實質上現在我們大概都是用融資的方式來做 那未來當然我們不排除"},{"start":329.327,"end":347.159,"text":"那發言這麼有信心那我問你嘛就明年520之前你可以達到幾戶嘛我就問你這個目標嘛你明年520之前我就算520之後到明年520之前一年之內嘛新建的部分再增加嗎我們大概一年就可以增加2萬啦新建的部分就會增加2萬包租貸款可以增加2到3萬"},{"start":348.6,"end":363.985,"text":"先不談包装要講比新建完成還有加上你說審議也可以達到幾萬戶新建完成嗎?新建完成我可能要再算一下啦因為發包要跟前面已經有發包他才可能新建完成嘛對那你就估計一下嘛好我再估計再一年多嘛還有一年多"},{"start":365.745,"end":389.411,"text":"應該可以一年可以增加一萬戶以上一年可以增加一萬戶以上是所以到明年為止的話就可以新建完成就可能到三萬多戶可能四萬多快五萬快四萬多快五萬這就是你目標嗎是那我們就以這個目標來檢驗你的成績接下來我們請那個部長部長這BOT的部分我們的業主是不是都有一個心態啊"},{"start":390.411,"end":417.043,"text":"我們的那個公部門都有一個心態就是他想要當業主啊不想要那不想要透過民間的資金來創造這個公共設施有沒有可能這個可能性當然我們希望是說呃主辦也就是政府機關他推出的公共建設經過評估以後可行性評估以後我們希望盡量是走以促餐的模式也就是引進民間的資金沒有促餐法已經都通過了啦我希望促餐法能夠達到實際的效果"},{"start":417.483,"end":417.603,"text":"黃主委請"},{"start":439.285,"end":450.183,"text":"主委好,那個今天那個報紙上有報說我們財政委員會另一個召委有邀請這個瘦嫌業去吃飯那我不曉得問一下主委這個保險局長有給你報備沒有?"},{"start":451.991,"end":480.398,"text":"他有跟我提說趙偉翔想讓財委會新的委員認識一下業者你知情嘛我知道你知道這件事情嘛那主委你知道嗎就我的了解齁4月11號齁在這個喜來登成員B1這個餐廳齁時間、地點、日期都已經OK了還有一攤監控的攤你知道嗎我不知道你不知道而且是不只是局長的層級勒還是局長還沒跟你報告"},{"start":481.598,"end":506.45,"text":"我不曉得你不曉得還是裝修局長會曉得這個他沒有邀請還沒有這個所以已經在邀約了已經約好這個有跟我提過但是沒有跟你提過所以說那如果是保險局的拖完之後又變成是銀行局的拖又排一場那接下來是不是換政期局張振山也要排一場那這安排這個飯局就變金管會的經常業務囉"},{"start":508.342,"end":522.438,"text":"我想跟委員報告當時召委是說我的對轉述是說才會有新的委員希望能夠有機會新的委員在這邊就可以認識了啦我覺得此風不可漲啦我們如果說今天有針對特定主題"},{"start":524.98,"end":539.797,"text":"然後特定的這個政策要做溝通的話其實金管會出面會比較適合一點啦不用去安排聯誼金管會不是金管聯誼會啦好不好好謝謝委員我想早上也說我們會參考委員的意見好主委那我們今天回來今天的主題齁"},{"start":540.718,"end":562.599,"text":"今天主題當中因為我們都知道受選人在海外避險成本過高可是受選業一直在強調說這個要如何減少受選在海外的這個投資這個成本希望金管會降低這個外匯、幣匯成本那這樣的情況底下是不是又鼓勵更多的海外資金不回來然後這樣會不會形成一個二項循環你對這個業者呼籲你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":563.889,"end":587.952,"text":"其實保險資金去國外也是一個相對不得已的選擇因為我們國內沒有我們的在固定收益市場國內不夠大所以必須他的商品要期間跟收益力對match他只能到國外去所以今天的題目趙委員提得很好如果我們多一點適合保險業投資的公共建設他就可以留在台灣了"},{"start":588.953,"end":617.187,"text":"對,那投資標的當然不是金管會在主管這可能是國發會的高副主委請上來一下有沒有可能金管會把現在的這個資金過剩的這個問題的問題請國發會來成立一個小組的可能性來面對這個問題因為國外的資金移出去當然不會造成國內的資金過剩的情況底下雪上加霜可是一直放在海外也一直有問題嘛對主委這個部分能不能請高副主委能夠費一個心思啊"},{"start":618.393,"end":647.626,"text":"副主委我想我們國發會願意跟那個財政部跟相關部會合作看看在盤點上有哪些公共建設適合放在初三的案件裡面對我覺得高副主委今天特別邀請國發會來原是希望你們成立一個類似的專案小組邀請相關的這個部會來處理這個問題這個問題真的是越來越嚴重那我本席也有提案因為相關的問題我不想耽誤太多的時間後續的部分再進行討論那主委你是不是要補充一下主委"},{"start":648.286,"end":675.784,"text":"我想如果我剛剛有報告過像如果我們現在盡量在制度上能夠提供用品都做了重點是保險公司要找到可以投資的標的那如果國會這邊能夠重整能夠鼓勵地方政府或像為此也是一個方式那我覺得這個促成供需之間的媒合是好的事情對就是類似我們已經開始漸進有更多的機制形成這種情況底下國會都在統籌做一個政策性的宣示的話或許速度會更快一點謝謝主委"},{"start":680.068,"end":682.731,"text":"好我們結束郭國文委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"150746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0cf6e45f8ffda3447ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a6f08deeda106faf485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:46:55 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是不是合有這樣子的決定什麼時候可以決定"},{"start":287.618,"end":302.399,"text":"因為近期會開會那之前因為現在已經發現到他的帳戶被拿去做詐騙的一個工具所以我們要有效防堵的話其實這個是一條路啊那不是"},{"start":304.387,"end":317.718,"text":"有沒有其他任何的考量說會不會侵犯到他的因為他已經離開了嘛他來這裡當然都是一個契約行為比如說他待兩年幾年然後回去了回去了當然這個帳戶把他close掉"},{"start":320.244,"end":334.397,"text":"對,報告委員我們之前確實有因為這樣子有人有這樣的建議有跟勞動部這邊洽談不過勞動部還是認為說也許有些移工離境了之後他很可能還會有需要有這樣子的"},{"start":335.718,"end":336.059,"text":"一個月內會有結果嗎?"},{"start":360.894,"end":361.634,"text":"請問兩位,什麼時候可以凍結他的賬戶?"},{"start":383.137,"end":404.993,"text":"委員不好意思我可以再你明確這個凍結是指他在臺灣的時候還是在離開之後對是離開之後或者在如果他的他這個帳戶已經參與犯罪了當然凍結那如果是在臺灣工作的時候將警示帳戶的時候就可以凍結警示帳戶那警示要檢調單位給我們指示給銀行指示"},{"start":406.404,"end":414.588,"text":"好,兩位請,我要請那個財政部的莊部長還有內政部的花次長我要請莊部長跟花次長委員好兩位長官好喔你看一下先請花次長我們看到蔡政府蔡總統說社會注財目標是20萬戶嘛對不對現在看起來大概飄飄了吧應該"},{"start":433.305,"end":454.66,"text":"沒有?沒有沒有,按你的數字,你總共連既有的新環公的加新進總的加以絕標代開工的規劃總的通通給你,啊不能算進來,12萬戶嗎?這是你們的資料嗎?各位網友還有包租代管的部分,這裡面不含包租代管包租代管多少?"},{"start":455.385,"end":483.175,"text":"現在已經7萬5千戶左右了哎呀各位各位看官看進來齁真正新建真正新完工的就是2萬2千戶啊加一個既有的6千戶還不到3萬戶啊20萬個食物盤而已啊阿你講你怎麼可以把新建中的放加進來以絕標代開工的還沒開工的新建中的還要包括你全土地都算"},{"start":484.002,"end":484.742,"text":"他還沒有還沒有換句話說可以讓八年的"},{"start":502.935,"end":509.16,"text":"我們當然是認識社會啦社會的人當然程度比你高啦我們的認知就是"},{"start":529.855,"end":542.686,"text":"蓋好給我住才算啊結果你都還在蓋還給我算蓋房子房子就需要時間我們看要來的賴政府我不知道花次長會不會升官或者是要在別的地方去我不知道"},{"start":546.445,"end":546.765,"text":"我請問你啊"},{"start":572.881,"end":602.051,"text":"你現在來講的話我們住都中心你的總資產多少?你的淨資產多少?住都中心現在大概有四五百億吧四五百億喔那你要融資一兆但是這是這個背後是可百分之百的這個那個自償的啊這個我是很擔心你到時候發綠色什麼時候開始發?"},{"start":603.683,"end":603.863,"text":"主席"},{"start":624.059,"end":627.402,"text":"您們有準備要蓋社會住宅的時候要發這個債嗎?我想這個部分我們會跟內政部以及金管會來做詳細的討論什麼時候會有結果?這個部分時間我們還不是還沒有對對對所以現在都還沒有結果我們還在對對對會在討論的是我們是還更在意的那個市長"},{"start":645.353,"end":658.294,"text":"就是你現在就是常常這樣一圈就圈這個地就變成你要設備住宅一圈圈那個地設備住宅那個交通影響評估都沒有做好我在這裡最少問了蘇貞昌院長兩次"},{"start":660.56,"end":672.426,"text":"他公開承諾你們正式要劃定身為住宅的時候一定要做交通影響評估結果你們幾乎都沒有我一定會做我再去跟委員報告小問題好了你先請回那個莊部長我請問你你們的官務署"},{"start":686.534,"end":711.13,"text":"或者你們財政部啊講到了加熱煙、電子煙禁自由貿易港區居然說是可以可是我總書信的時候問學院內容部長部長說這個禁止啊結果在這裡面有好幾噸在那裡面加熱煙、電子煙電子煙是違法加熱煙要省額到目前為止"},{"start":712.91,"end":720.575,"text":"我秀啦!廣告都有啊!電子煙加了一堆啊!為什麼電子你們都可以賣呢?你們都不抓?請問有沒有取締?"},{"start":721.967,"end":742.207,"text":"有這個第一個跟委員報告加熱煙就煙害防治法裡面他是對指定煙品公告以後要經過健康風險評估才能目前是0目前是沒有對沒錯那電子煙並不是屬於這個公告裡面指定的一個煙品電子煙絕對禁止對是的"},{"start":743.628,"end":759.355,"text":"我做你取締的怎麼樣啊?取締結果?這個部分,取締的部分有做啊。這個部分是有做的。你們要報告給我們好不好?取締數量多不多嗎?好,那我們詳細的資料。你先回答一下多不多?數量一點點還是數量很多?書面給您資料還是?"},{"start":762.476,"end":780.248,"text":"對,但是你大致上這個數量多不多?好數量,那署長這邊可以說跟委員報告大概煙彈的部分有八十四萬啦,八十四萬個piece那如果是西十七的話大概是四十九萬多那很多喔?是那很多喔?好吧把這個給我齁好,謝謝委員賴委員麻煩一下"}]}},{"id":"150745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07ce6f7445865cffcee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a628864551c56b11fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:35:22 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細部計畫是有地方那細部計畫包含了剛剛您提到的這個容積率、建壁率所以這都確實長期以來都是由地方政府在決定它的住宅區、商業區的分類跟容積率、建壁率那目前看到確實有縣市之間有存在一個結構性的落差"},{"start":103.897,"end":132.511,"text":"我攻擊一個個案喔被監察院糾正的這個金華城的這個容積他一口氣把他提高到800多喔那又是另外一個議題啦金華城本來有他的法定容積齁那當然還有一些開發上的容積獎勵的申請那之前的爭議是在說他第一次蓋那個圓球時候的容積獎勵等他拆掉之後他要蓋新的時候原來的容積獎勵是不是還存在"},{"start":133.391,"end":151.637,"text":"那就有兩種論述那方向上面其實我們本來的我們的態度是只有一次性而不是永久性的東西我記得郝龍斌當台北市長的時候曾經為了一個台北好好看在一個地上種一點點花草然後就可以增加很多的容積後來你們不是也表示意見說不可以這樣嗎是"},{"start":153.337,"end":167.852,"text":"那可見你們對地方政府這樣的要求有沒有強制力還是你只是言者尊尊聽者渺渺呢?實質上如果他們已經超過了都市計畫法的授權的時候我們還是可以去撤銷他的這個公告"},{"start":169.517,"end":169.657,"text":"臺中的"},{"start":189.07,"end":216.804,"text":"臺中他商業區沿線那個部分我們就請他不是不是我回去再最近有一個因為行政院啊不是新北市啦是新北市的那個他就是要蓋設宅可以給予容積獎勵的那個回饋然後可以收收不要不要真的提供容積獎勵而是收貸金現在都這樣搞啊現在有一些現在就是可以做"},{"start":218.052,"end":246.793,"text":"他就是日期規定一個在捷運站幾百公尺內如果要做榮譽的話有一部分要先跟他買啊然後整個街坡的也要跟他買啊如果是TOD的那個邏輯其實他還有一定的基礎那有些是純粹只是賣榮基他並沒有設定什麼樣的範圍和一定的目標那變成是買空賣空的賣榮基那這個部分我們現在我們已經發文去新北市政府那也跟他們溝通好原則上這個方案他們就會把它撤掉"},{"start":247.153,"end":264.588,"text":"你知道為什麼我要問你這個嗎?因為有人講說如果政府的容積彈性一點跟建商談的時候他每一個社宅他每一個住宅都蓋一部分你給他容積他蓋一部分的社會住宅相對的條件給你這樣政府不用花錢啊"},{"start":266.062,"end":295.362,"text":"你站不站成這樣的講法這是一種理想但是實務上的操作其實蠻困難的因為很多開發他想說我社區裡面有社宅融在裡面基本上他賣房子也會不好賣建商其實也不大願意參與我覺得願意的人願意不願意的人不願意是看你提供的誘因條件另外一點就是也要這個地方為什麼要請莊部長來很多的國有土地他後來是會再參加都市更新的"},{"start":295.862,"end":309.275,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":310.084,"end":331.277,"text":"這個叫做權力變換率他是應該要給你房屋嘛對不對那至少你剛剛講說困難說這個因為建商罪這個社區裡面就如果有社宅的話可能不好賣那裡面有這個都公之後有公有土地所取得的這個住宅我以前曾經在這邊提過是不是盡量把它納入社會住宅的範圍"},{"start":332.699,"end":348.038,"text":"財政部也說你同意這個方向當然細節我們還可以再細緻化那這樣同樣你剛剛講那個狀況那社區除非他這個地方都只要有公共土地他要排除否則的話他怎麼有辦法拒絕你的社區裡面有社宅"},{"start":348.579,"end":362.635,"text":"各位委員報告,確實啦,實質上也有,已經有實際上好幾個案例,它本來就已經開始做社宅了。那當然有一些業者或者是買方會有意見。那我們現在正在發展新的方案。"},{"start":363.596,"end":389.196,"text":"相容的方案那這個部分應該我們盡快把那個方案確定報行之後我覺得你講這個是趕快研發我贊成趕快研究我贊成但是我剛剛講這個問題是早就已經存在了你現在都更裡面的公有土地權力變換你就是取回房屋我建議這個房屋盡量不要飆售盡量拿來當社會住宅現在是這樣沒有錯現在就是這樣那也要鼓勵地方政府這樣結果中央政府的分配回來的"},{"start":390.077,"end":397.821,"text":"我非常感謝委員提出這個論述這也是我們希望能夠積極倡議的一個角度那當然就法之面我們跟財政部來討論因為終究那是地方政府的財產那這邊又就是地方政府對於公益的態度的問題"},{"start":418.892,"end":431.744,"text":"另外我要請署長請教你有沒有你的土地撥用給地方政府之後地方政府之後把他納入跟他讓回然後蓋一蓋他再去賣房子的這樣你空的土地撥給他就變成他的財源了"},{"start":432.851,"end":453.343,"text":"報告委員不可能因為現在只有可以用社宅的方式來撥剛剛委員有提到過比如說我可能只有零星的土地市政府或是縣市政府有一些部分的土地他有在講前面之後的分為黃色的要作為社宅"},{"start":453.863,"end":481.545,"text":"我們才會同意撥用我們撥用後我們也會做相關的一個管制像三重的那個集美大概有8戶我們就會去做抽查我舉個例子新莊原來的老的派出所分局現在在那邊做一個很大的都更他裡面有一些土地早年是國有撥給他的吧怎麼可能那一大片裡面都完全沒有國有土地那他做了都更之後現在分到房子之後他要拿去標售"},{"start":483.069,"end":491.21,"text":"地方政府會有一些的做法比如說他原來有派出手但是他都跟分回來的部分還是有做派出手使用"},{"start":492.945,"end":518.015,"text":"當然派出所一樓的會留一部分做派出所那樓上的呢他拿去標售我現在就是跟你講說這個你也要注意因為不會第一手撥土地來就立刻去督耕了先撥來做什麼東西做一個什麼樣的建設什麼樣的需要過了很多年之後改變人變成他要做督耕然後跟旁邊一起建那建好之後全部都變他的標售這樣是有點凱宗樣的"},{"start":521.056,"end":543.553,"text":"是戰鬥他的便宜啦那黃市長我再回頭問你這個問題就是說如果你的容積在獎勵上面的制定可以比較有彈性的話我覺得這不是一條既可以取得社宅又可以節省國家資源這個國家資源的一個方式那這個容積給地方政府這樣去弄"},{"start":544.554,"end":557.379,"text":"我覺得還不如中央政府規定一個怎麼樣狀況如果你建商願意這個怎麼樣的回饋條件讓他可以做一些在裡面增加一點彈性的容積比整個地方政府都拿去用這樣好多了"},{"start":559.06,"end":583.187,"text":"確實啦在歐洲其實有不少國家有這樣的一種做法那台灣其實有人在倡議那地方政府也嘗試著想要做啦確實如您說的就是那個標準因為因地制於每個縣市的條件會不一樣房價高的地方其實你給他容積就不要那麼多房價低的地方可能要多給一些那這裡面就會出現怎麼去平衡"},{"start":583.387,"end":583.507,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":600.855,"end":621.866,"text":"現在已經4月了,5月到期,這一個月是不是大家會趕掛建造啊?那趕掛建造的結果就是有一些人先掛,其實那個設計將來再改,這個都增加很多的勞費啦。如果你真的這個政策有必要再延續的時候,事實上才內政部可以適度的出來發表說你們可能會考慮延長。"},{"start":623.147,"end":623.808,"text":"那杜耕的呢?"},{"start":640.585,"end":664.698,"text":"獨耕現在的核心問題倒不在這個地方獨耕的核心問題在審議地方政府在審議的時間拖得太久是啊,常常做獨耕的到蓋牢8年以上啊動不動就8年以上那我們也不斷在跟地方政府溝通怎麼樣把審議的項目標準報告書的規格通通要標準化那不能發散就是審議該審議的東西就好不該審議的就應該不要審"},{"start":667.5,"end":679.918,"text":"好,那部長我再次表示我的立場希望你們因為參加督工分回來的房子是要盡可能的拿來做社會住宅是是,我們都會先洽詢你的是好,謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢接著我們請賴世寶委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"150744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07757cab43e946578ee14ad7ded5d841af8ba9b0039caa7a64ecdb07f450427e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:23:42 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共服務的方式來支付金額這個部分對於它的一個收益性跟流動性其實安全性都是有相當大的一個助力"},{"start":255.577,"end":271.746,"text":"另外你認為政府會不會考量提供更多這些租稅優惠來作為吸引金融業投注國內公共建設的誘因呢?跟委員報告在出產法裡面本身就有相關的租稅優惠它只要是屬於重大公共建設範圍的話"},{"start":273.027,"end":273.427,"text":"您們兩個請回去 請金管會黃主委"},{"start":303.397,"end":303.417,"text":"諸位"},{"start":305.981,"end":306.041,"text":"主席"},{"start":336.382,"end":336.843,"text":"各位委員報告"},{"start":346.698,"end":347.219,"text":"對阿就目前的狀況來看齁"},{"start":370.181,"end":393.859,"text":"這個成效是不是有達到預期?您認為呢?報告委員其實這個要看共幾面的情況就是我們其實在公共建設方面法規制度做了很多放寬包括參與公共建設董事監察員的比例都提高了可是看起來要有一個足夠讓保險業願意去投資的標底適當的期間跟報酬率才會促成兩倍的"},{"start":394.46,"end":399.806,"text":"這是主要的誘因嗎?如果不如預期那到底問題出在哪裡?是不是有其他配套的方案?"},{"start":401.533,"end":401.693,"text":"主委"},{"start":424.917,"end":435.285,"text":"風險係數下調後保險業持有的投資部位算出的風險資本也會減少有助拉高RBC主要"},{"start":436.69,"end":457.23,"text":"目的是為了增強保險業投資國內公共建設的誘因至於業者是不是會加碼投資公共建設保險局也表示還是取決於業者對投資回報的風險等面向來做一個綜合考量主委財政部今年初統計2023年"},{"start":460.292,"end":480.638,"text":"這個授權資金投入公共建設僅簽約兩個案子差不多合計的金額112.7億建樹還是4年來最少而且金額是創5年來最低媒體報導表示主要是保險業對收益率"},{"start":481.874,"end":497.086,"text":"要求高,再加上防疫保單的後遺症請問主委以保險業目前的生態你認為國內公共建設有沒有足夠收益率的誘因能夠吸引這些保險業的資金投資嗎?"},{"start":498.067,"end":498.507,"text":"經歷這幾年獲利不如預期"},{"start":520.953,"end":544.923,"text":"如2026年初就要接軌負債會計這個IFRS17和新清償能力指標ICS請問加碼投資國內公共建設你認為對保險業營運是不是有好的一個營運選項的考量其實委員在我們今天報告中特別有提到去年年底"},{"start":545.703,"end":545.723,"text":"這樣齁?是。"},{"start":564.181,"end":568.383,"text":"主委,上個禮拜公布2024年二月保險業獲利淨值和匯兌成本一月受選業大賺318億元那二月略降到211億元月減超33%累積兩個月賺了529億元"},{"start":584.169,"end":603.611,"text":"已經比去年同期虧轉盈媒體報導今年前兩個月新台幣貶值授權業有較多匯兌的利益再加上台股兩個月漲到一萬八千多點二月漲到一萬八千多點三月初漲到超過兩萬點"},{"start":605.293,"end":620.427,"text":"那有助授權業從股票實現資本利得來支撐獲利第一季獲利可能不錯的表現那請問主委你認為年初保險業的獲利是不是可以說是來自景氣互輸的反饋"},{"start":622.809,"end":640.562,"text":"其實委員您是專家您剛提的那幾點就是原因了匯率的問題股市它的資本利得的這個收得那但是這個情況未來會不會延續我們不清楚對於台股投資人提醒八個字注意風險省慎選股對保險業也適用嗎你認為"},{"start":644.98,"end":667.965,"text":"我想對任何金融業都是要注意風險風險關鍵很重要那可不可以適用就是注意風險省慎選股我覺得金融業要如履薄冰如林森淵今年應該風險有很多我們要注意的地方這樣喔好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林德福委員質詢接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"},{"start":677.5,"end":678.695,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"150743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0ae6a2f8890b3310c0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a634c366ed1daa38bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:06:08 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是是是。所以我才會說,電價,我剛一開始都說我可以理解不得不漲的一個負擔、承擔,這是我們必須要去承擔,跟世界各國一樣還有那個國際燃料的價格大漲。"},{"start":207.268,"end":207.308,"text":"何欣純"},{"start":222.293,"end":222.453,"text":"何欣純"},{"start":241.969,"end":246.41,"text":"在外他面對的是什麼三餐問題嘛所以早餐店漲那小吃飲食店也漲那對他來講一天家總起來你知道嗎他可能過去要花200塊現在要花300塊我這個是用中南部的價格還不是台北的價格"},{"start":261.463,"end":270.29,"text":"以年輕人的說法我以前是月底就要吃土了我可能現在不用到月底我可能提前一個禮拜可能就要面對吃土的狀況這個是我們現在年輕人的受到影響"},{"start":276.465,"end":292.584,"text":"這影響了什麼?年輕的上班族影響的是雙薪家庭有小孩的家庭那我不要講只有年輕人我們明年台灣要邁入超高齡社會每五個人就有一位高齡者你知道對高齡者的家庭又是如何影響嗎?通膨高物價"},{"start":296.108,"end":313.304,"text":"這個資料不是我自己創造的,這個資料是媒體的一個專題報導,那都是有平均,因為包括都是足跡總署的一些家庭收支調查。最窮的後20%,就是五分之一的家庭裡面,有六成是老年家庭,半數的老人都是窮人。"},{"start":314.085,"end":319.208,"text":"國民年輕不夠,可能還有其他衝擊更大的。我會舉這些是說不是只有年輕人受影響,也不是只有青壯有孩子的家庭受影響,還有高年齡的"},{"start":336.317,"end":336.698,"text":"提供提供"},{"start":355.649,"end":356.629,"text":"主委,你有所感嗎?你有看過這一個?"},{"start":377.418,"end":398.353,"text":"報告委員所以我們現在提供的協助是比較多元的協助那您剛才提到這個小商家的部分雖然電價有稍微上漲但是我們希望就是說大宗物資的部分進口的部分我們就關稅上就是延到6月份不要讓它漲瓦斯桶的部分我們也就是不要漲"},{"start":399.053,"end":399.374,"text":"何欣純"},{"start":417.176,"end":420.659,"text":"臺灣的社會狀況或是年輕人或是我們臺灣人民的國人的一個感受問題我們如何去改變如何去提升他們對政府的信任願意的來"},{"start":436.71,"end":436.83,"text":"何欣純議員"},{"start":457.702,"end":457.822,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150742","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0a24682e968ed74cd9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a696fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:59:37 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11:10:55","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":678,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:10:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時59分）主席，有請立法院、司法院還有法務部。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長及副秘書長上台。"],["周秘書長萬來：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：首先第一個就教於三位，幫我們開示一下，就是民進黨總召柯建銘曾經說過，對於國情報告，他主張即問即答，請問一下秘書長，你覺得有沒有違憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：我上次已經報告過，因為這個本身就是我們立法形成，因為國情報告到立法院來，我們有決定權嘛，我上次也跟羅委員報告過……"],["羅委員智強：對，沒錯。"],["周秘書長萬來：至於第十五條之四怎麼修，當然我們有立法政策的形成，我們有選擇權……"],["羅委員智強：所以這是立法政策形成的權力？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們有選擇的處理。"],["羅委員智強：好，就是剛剛秘書長所講的，這有立法形成的權力嘛！我想請教副秘書長，對於柯建銘說國情報告採即問即答，你覺得違憲了嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止，目前並沒有相關的解釋啦，司法院基本上是負責司法行政的，並不適合就合不合憲部分去表示意見，請委員諒解。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，那我想請教，現在有大法官在座嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：現在應該沒有大法官列席。"],["羅委員智強：沒有大法官在座。立法委員也不是大法官嘛，對不對？如果直接就喊說國情報告即問即答違憲，最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，如果將來有憲法訴訟的話，當然是由大法官的憲法法庭去審理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，就是大法官說了算啊！我再請教次長，柯建銘總召說國情報告即問即答，你覺得有違憲嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：這個是他個人表達意見，我們現行法確實是沒有即問即答嘛，剛才周秘書長也提到將來修法有立法形成的空間，至於會不會違反憲法或憲政原理等等這些的話，最終應該是大法官才能宣告。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝喔！所以在這邊我先針對國情報告的部分，實際上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦，即時詢答其實有包含不同種模式，即問即答是模式一，一問一答是模式二，至於統問統答是模式三，所以換言之，即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式，這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成，將來有一個法律的授權之後，也可以透過黨團協商來決定具體的詢答模式，所以本席倒是認為不用過早的妄論所謂的即問即答或是即時詢答是所謂違憲的形式。因為以目前來講，司法院講得很清楚，大法官對於這個部分，不管是憲法法庭或過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷，所以換言之，這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的，應該是一個立法形成的權力，所以讓立法院來進行決定。","第二個，我就要問到有關於國會聽證調查，我想引一段我們賴清德委員在他的法律案連署裡面的法律理由，想聽聽三位的意見，看看有沒有違憲。立法院的調查權不是為司法，不是為監察，而是基於質詢權，立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。對於賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法理由，不知道秘書長您覺得在2009年的這個說法有違憲問題嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有啊！"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["羅委員智強：我們副秘書長覺得呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：一樣，跟委員報告，因為我們是司法行政，不是……"],["羅委員智強：也不是你決定啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["羅委員智強：次長覺得呢？"],["陳次長明堂：大法官第585號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權，不過他的範圍還是要在憲政的範圍之下來做處理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，就是基本上認為調查權是立法的固有權力嘛，伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權，事實上調查權是他的固有權。我再引一位我們非常尊敬的政界前輩高雄市長陳其邁的發言，他也曾經公開主張，當立法院失去了調查權就是一個無牙的老虎，事實上是侵犯憲政上立法院該有的一個權力。當然，立法院的聽證調查該如何進行，事實上全世界各國多有實例嘛，能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家的聽證調查大概的範示是什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們的法制局有針對國會的聽證調查做過研究，在範圍上不完全相同，因為我們有第585號解釋，第585號解釋裡面對於它的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦，所以我們委員的很多版本也是有把它排除，比如像行政特權或基本人權等等，大概都必須要稍微把它排除在外。至於聽證調查裡面的相關範圍、界限，甚至於像類似對國會藐視，因為每一個國家是不一樣的，我們法制局所做的研究是提供給各委員參考，各個國家制度上的設計，我們也做了很厚一本有關聽證調查權的報告給各位委員參考。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝周秘書長，實際上那個報告我也看過了，依照目前來看的話，全世界各國對聽證調查的行使方式跟範圍有寬有廣啦，規範的程序也未必完全一致，但是很多主要的民主國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的，所以在這種情況之下，這也顯現我們立法院在民主國家的發展過程當中，其實這個部分我認為是退步的，是不夠進步的。這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充，不管是釋字第585號講的有關立法職能的缺陷，事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度，我這樣的認知，不知道秘書長認不認同？"],["周秘書長萬來：我同意，因為本來第585號解釋以後，我們當時的職權行使法是在文件調閱，在88年的時候是以第325號解釋作基礎，到第585號解釋以後就不一樣了，所以多數委員認為對於這一個部分是需要填補，所以委員也針對這個部分提了很多修正案，大家藉這個情況來做研擬，委員針對這個部分如果覺得哪方面能夠都符合第585號解釋的意旨，我想我們的職權行使法在運作上會更加強化。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝秘書長。我在這邊其實也跟各位提醒一下，事實上，民進黨在這次國民黨黨團提出國會改革法案之前，現在民進黨有51位立法委員，扣除14位新科立委，也就是有37位連任立委，裡面有31位、高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案。也就是說，以我們現在司法及法制委員會的成員來看，現在民進黨參加司法及法制委員會的有柯建銘、吳思瑤、鍾佳濱、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發惠等委員，其中也只有陳俊宇委員在過去我沒有查到有關於國會改革的主張。","當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計，我覺得大家可以再去做法案的討論，但是國會的聽證調查，基本上不管是民主國家或是從我們本身的臺灣民主發展來說，都是國會的一個必要職能，所以我也希望能夠從這一點來提供大家一個參考。","接下來我想再請教一下，我想請秘書長說明一下有關藐視國會的各國立法例的狀況大概是如何。"],["周秘書長萬來：藐視國會的部分，有些是行政法在處理，有些是刑法，因為我剛也報告過，就第585號解釋裡面是有一點限縮性，所以現在變成委員的提案版本裡面有些是增加刑罰，所以我才在報告裡提到學者的主張都不一樣，我們法制局請來的學者所表達的主張不一樣，所以我才說這是立法政策的選擇，是這樣的。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝秘書長。事實上我也看過相關的報告，基本上不管是行政罰或是刑事罰，在其他國家的立法例都有，當然一個輕、一個重，至於在我們接下來的國會改革法案當中，至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰，或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰，這一點不違憲吧？至少處罰的這件事情。"],["周秘書長萬來：處罰是在第585號解釋中有的。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯嘛，只是處罰的形式、手段跟程度。可能有討論的空間。那也很簡單啊！將來在審議法案時，我們來討論什麼樣的處罰合乎比例性，什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政上所允許，什麼樣的處罰，按照世界各國的先例來講，比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能，這應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中，我們進一步地來確認。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，羅委員說的是。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝秘書長。以上，感謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們就依照先前的宣布，先休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後由鍾佳濱委員繼續詢答。謝謝。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時16分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.12784375,"end":3.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.172843750000002,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.832843750000002,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.89596875,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.773468750000003,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.84409375,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.54659375,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.60846875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.40534375,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.46846875000001,"end":67.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.59846875000001,"end":70.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.90221875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.13784375,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.79409375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.39971875,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.28971875,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.59659375000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.71034375,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.30346875000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.53471875000001,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.22659375,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.12409375000001,"end":138.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.13596875000002,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.49034375000002,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.45159375,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.85971875,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.63284375,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":253.42596875,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.44284375,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.05409375,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.94409375000004,"end":261.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.70721875000004,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.01846875,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.03534375000004,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.60596875000005,"end":376.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.85846875000004,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.08596875,"end":381.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.76034375,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.83471875000004,"end":445.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.83034375000005,"end":459.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.26721875000004,"end":460.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":460.48221875,"end":460.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.80284375,"end":468.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.49784375,"end":473.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.93159375000005,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.52846875000006,"end":492.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.54471875,"end":499.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":499.96971875,"end":583.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.2222187500001,"end":586.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.6940937500001,"end":616.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":616.32284375,"end":640.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":641.0109687500001,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0278437500001,"end":641.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":641.0447187500001,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0615937499999,"end":641.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.0022187500001,"end":645.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":645.02721875,"end":673.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9340937500001,"end":674.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":674.96346875,"end":678.9965937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.235,"end":26.465,"text":"主席有請立法院司法院還有法務部好請秘書長次長附密碼上台各位好"},{"start":27.907,"end":56.033,"text":"首先我想第一個就叫三位幫我們開示一下就是柯建民民進黨的總召曾經說過國情報告他主張急問急答請問一下秘書長你覺得有沒有違憲我上次有已經報告過吧因為這個本身就是我們立完這個行程因為"},{"start":57.819,"end":83.144,"text":"國情報告到立法院來我們有決定權我上次也跟委員報告過吧那至於15條之事怎麼修當然我們有立法政策的形成嘛對所以這是立法政策形成的權利我們有選擇的處分對好就是剛剛秘書長講這個立法這個的形成的權利嘛那我想請教這個副秘書長你覺得柯建民說國情報告才急問急答你覺得違憲了嗎"},{"start":85.044,"end":104.428,"text":"跟委員報告那就我們司法院憲法法庭到現在為止目前並沒有相關的這個解釋啦那司法院基本上我們是負責司法行政的並不適合就合不合憲部分就表示意見非常好那我想請教現在在座的有大法官在座嗎我們現在應該沒有大法官在座立法委員也不是大法官嘛對不對"},{"start":111.38,"end":126.513,"text":"那如果直接就喊說這個國情報告即問即答違憲,最後是要誰來決定有沒有違憲?宮委員報告如果說將來有憲法的這個訴算的話當然是由大法官。對啊,就是大法官說了算啊。"},{"start":127.284,"end":151.278,"text":"我再想請教次長,柯建民總召說國情報告疾問疾答,你覺得有違憲嗎?這個是他個人表達意見,我們憲刑法確實是沒有疾問疾答,剛才周民眾也提到說將來修法有立法形成的空間,那最終會不會違反憲法的憲政的原理等等這些的話,最終的話是一個大法官才有的宣告。好,非常謝謝。"},{"start":152.379,"end":176.047,"text":"所以這邊我先針對國情報告事實上國民黨版本叫做即時詢答啦那即時詢答其實有包括不同種模式即問即答是模式一疑問一答是模式二那至於統問統答是模式三所以換言之即時詢答也有不同的詢答模式這些事實上不只是可以透過立法形成"},{"start":176.627,"end":176.767,"text":"二）委員傅崐萁"},{"start":198.992,"end":209.545,"text":"這個部分也對不管是憲法法庭過去的釋憲案對此也並沒有做出一個判斷所以換言之這個部分我還是比較傾向認同剛剛我們周秘書長講的他應該是一個立法形成的一個權利所以讓立法院來進行決定"},{"start":217.535,"end":217.775,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":237.771,"end":261.36,"text":"立法院的調查權是基於立法院的質詢權、議決權而生的。請問賴清德委員當時連署的法案的立法委員,我不知道秘書長您覺得2009年他這個說法有違憲問題嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對,那我們的副秘書長覺得呢?一樣跟委員報告,因為我們是…也不是你決定,那次長您覺得呢?"},{"start":262.725,"end":280.959,"text":"五、八、五號解釋是有肯認立法院有調查權不過他的範圍還是在憲政的範圍之下來做處理對啊就基本上認為調查權是這個立法的固有權利嘛伴隨立法院的議案權跟質詢權事實上調查權是他固有權這也是我在引一個"},{"start":281.779,"end":298.214,"text":"我們非常尊敬的一個政界的一個前輩高雄市長陳其邁他也曾經公開主張當立法院失去了調查權他就是一個無牙的老虎事實上是侵犯今天憲政上立法院的該有的一個權利"},{"start":299.315,"end":314.008,"text":"所以因此在這邊其實當然立法院聽證調查該如何進行是讓全世界各國多有實力嘛能不能請我們的秘書長跟大家稍微介紹一下其他國家聽證調查大概的範例是 範式是什麼"},{"start":316.853,"end":339.202,"text":"我們法治局有針對這個國會的這個聽證調查他是有做過研究啦大概有他的範圍上不完全是相同啦那因為我們有585號的解釋在裡面585號解釋裡面他就對於他的範圍上可能有做一些限制啦"},{"start":339.842,"end":355.255,"text":"所以我們委員裏面有很多版本也是有把他排除啦。比如像這個行政特權啦,等等。我基本人權大概都必須要稍微有點把他排除在外。"},{"start":355.956,"end":362.52,"text":"則在範圍裡面。至於這個聽證調查裡面的這個相關於這個範圍、界限甚至於這個有些比如像類似這個國會的藐視因為沒有國家是不會一樣的。所以我們在"},{"start":377.348,"end":387.459,"text":"法制局在做研究是提供給各位委員去參考各個國家制度上的設計那我們也做了一個很厚的一本這個聽證調查權的一個報告給各位委員參考"},{"start":392.149,"end":407.395,"text":"我非常謝謝周秘書長,實際上你那個報告我也看過了。以依照目前來看的話,全世界各國對於聽證調查的行使的方式跟範圍有寬有廣,規範的程序也未必完全一致。"},{"start":408.035,"end":424.903,"text":"但是很多主要的民主的國家基本上國會都是有聽證調查的所以這種情況之下這也是顯現我們今天立法院在這個民主國家的發展過程當中其實這個部分我認為是退步的是不夠進步的"},{"start":426.084,"end":444.983,"text":"那這次國會改革法案就是要能夠補充不管是我們4至5、8、5號講的我們立法職能的缺陷事實上也是要跟進全世界各個主要的民主國家所採取的聽證調查制度這樣的一個我這樣的一個認知我不知道秘書長認不認同"},{"start":447.094,"end":467.727,"text":"因為這個本來585號解釋以後就從我們當時這個職權行使法是在文件調閱在88年的時候是以3號、5號解釋做基礎的那585號解釋以後就不一樣了所以多數的委員對於這一個部分是需要填補的"},{"start":468.968,"end":468.988,"text":"委員楊瓔"},{"start":488.59,"end":491.474,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":505.191,"end":521.378,"text":"民進黨在我們這次國民黨團提出的國會改革法案提出之前現在的民進黨的51位立法委員扣除14位新科37位就任立委裡面有31位高達84%過去都簽署過相關國會聽證調查的國會改革法案"},{"start":528.621,"end":543.826,"text":"那麼也就是說事實上以我們現在司法法制委員會民進黨的司法法制委員裡面柯建民、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌、莊瑞雄、陳俊宇、沈發慧委員其中也只有"},{"start":544.586,"end":572.592,"text":"陳俊宇在過去我們有查到有關於國會改革的一些主張那當然國會改革聽證調查的內容要怎麼設計我覺得大家可以再去做法案的一個討論但是國會的聽證調查這是國會基本上不管是民主國家以及我們從我們本身的台灣民主發展都是一個必要的職能所以我也希望說能夠從這一點來跟大家提供一個參考"},{"start":573.812,"end":573.972,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":590.264,"end":614.939,"text":"有些是行政法裏面在處理 有些是刑法那因為我剛報告解釋裏面它是有一點線索性所以在現在就變成每一個委員的提案版本有些是增加刑法所以我才報告裏會提到學者的主張都不一樣我在我們法治局請學者來不一樣所以我才說這是由立法政策的這個選擇是這樣"},{"start":616.96,"end":635.833,"text":"謝謝秘書長那事實上我也看過相關的報告啦基本上針對行政法、行使法在其他國家的立法例都有啦那當然一個輕一個重嘛那至於在我們接下來國會改革法案當中至少藐視國會該有相當的處罰或是妨礙聽證調查該有相當的處罰這一點不違憲吧至少處罰這件事情"},{"start":643.055,"end":654.122,"text":"主要是在五八合集是有有沒錯嘛那只是處罰的形式跟手段跟程度那可能有討論的空間那也很簡單就交給我們將來審議法案當中我們來討論什麼樣的處罰和比例性什麼樣的處罰比較可能是憲政稍所允許什麼樣的處罰按照世界各國例子來講比較能夠輔佐立法院的職能這個應該都可以透過立法形成的過程當中我們來進一步的來確認"},{"start":672.995,"end":675.921,"text":"那非常謝謝秘書長,以上感謝。"}]}},{"id":"150741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c01d9188fd66155768f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a61c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:00:15 - 11:10:45","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":630,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:10:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T11:00:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時）謝謝主席，請夷將主委。"],["主席：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：夷將主委您好，我想請教一下夷將主委，在2016年1月的時候，總統候選人蔡英文在中選會的政見發表會上說在我執政的任內，我一定要讓原住民族實施自治踏出第一步，並且更應該思考給族人更多的支持跟支援，為族人創造更多的公平發展，實現經濟自主的機會。請問主委，原住民族的自治實施了嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，其實自治的範圍很多元，我覺得有一些已經在實施。"],["許委員宇甄：比如哪些呢？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：比如說大院通過原住民族語言發展法，我們的公所可以用我們自己的母語發公文，這是很具體的自治第一步。還有礦業法經過六年討論以後終於通過了，原來的79個礦場現在都要經過當地部落的諮商同意，這就是部落本身自治很重要的一個做法。"],["許委員宇甄：所以主委的意思是原住民族自治指的就是這樣嗎？就這兩點嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：自治當然不是只有這個樣子，但是我跟委員報告我們國家的自治，即便自治法還沒有通過的這個時候，之前我們很多地方的自治都已經開始推動了。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想請教你，我們原鄉目前的自治法源，比如選舉區長、代表是根據地方制度法來制定，直轄市原本的原住民區長沒辦法從選舉產生，這是馬英九總統時期提出的行政院版本完成修法，這個跟原住民自治法的立法差異也很大，請問一下所謂原住民自治的部分，你擔任原民會主委八年了，這個部分為什麼到現在還沒有辦法實施呢？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛跟委員報告的，我們應該是這樣，所謂自治專法的部分還沒有通過，這是事實沒有錯，但是對我來講，那個是母法，雖然母法還沒有出生，但反而很多子法在大院各位的支持之下已經逐步推動，包括我們修了原住民族教育法，很多民族教育的部分已經有實際推動的狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：我想已經八年了，這個腳步真的有一點慢，不管是我們召委或是這些原住民的立法委員，對於原住民相關的權益跟立法，其實我覺得應該要加緊腳步，尤其是在107年第一次原住民轉型正義會議召開的時候，當時的蔡英文總統也明確指示，原住民族的自治要有明確的空間範圍、自治權限、固定財源，自治的架構則是要由原住民族與政府對等充分協商後產生，民進黨也執政八年了，為什麼沒有提出行政院版本送立法院審議？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就剛剛跟委員報告的，我們這幾年的自治推動方向是採取分流立法的方式，不是用一個專法來推動，其實它的成效反而是有在進步的過程。"],["許委員宇甄：你覺得進步的幅度大嗎？八年了！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就像剛剛委員所指教的，在馬政府的時候，因為地方制度法把六都的原住民區明顯產生，那也是一個自治的進步。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是馬總統時期推動的就對了？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就是政府推動的……"],["許委員宇甄：這八年應該是沒有推動就對了？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：也有。"],["許委員宇甄：現在提不出自治法到底是原民會的問題還是蔡英文總統的執政團隊不讓你提出？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我可以舉一個例子給委員做參考，我們過去有5個自治法版本，除非我們要達成共識，比如像臺東、花蓮原住民人口最多的地方是不是可以讓原住民劃在自治區裡面？這就是自治的方向……"],["許委員宇甄：所以主委，我的問題是你們提不出來還是蔡英文總統的執政團隊不讓你提出？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不是提不出來，我們過去都往這個方向去推動，但是在大院審議的時候就沒有辦法審議。"],["許委員宇甄：我再請教您，你知道2015年立法院第7會期、第8會期，在馬英九總統執政的時期，立法院曾經有機會通過原住民族自治暫行條例嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：後來好像也沒有通過。"],["許委員宇甄：對，沒有推動，為什麼？當時的原住民委員包括我們的高金召委，還有剛剛發言提案的鄭天財委員、廖國棟委員、孔文吉委員，甚至是已故的簡東明委員，全部都簽署了協商結論，最後卻功虧一簣，主委知不知道是誰不願意簽署協商結論？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個狀況我瞭解得不是很清楚。"],["許委員宇甄：好，本席告訴你，就是當時的民進黨主席蔡英文。我們來看一段新聞影片，請播放。","（播放影片）"],["許委員宇甄：主委，您當時是民進黨原住民事務部的主任，你說國民黨政府所提出的原住民自治是鳥籠自治，請問一下，你擔任原民會主委八年了，你卻連一個鳥籠自治都提不出來，那豈不是變成原住民之狼了？因為騙我們原住民已經八年了……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我想委員這樣的指控是我沒辦法接受的。"],["許委員宇甄：你現在任期剩沒幾天了，請問一下，你有辦法在這個任期之內提出原住民自治法嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛跟委員報告的，原住民族語言發展法在馬政府的時候都沒辦法通過，我們通過原住民族語言發展法……"],["許委員宇甄：當時沒有通過的原因剛剛有提出來，是當時的民進黨主席蔡英文不通過，再來就是……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我講的是原住民族語言發展法，不是自治法喔！"],["許委員宇甄：我現在跟你提的是原住民自治法，我沒有在跟你提原住民族語言發展法。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：語言發展法就是自治的一種項目。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我想請教您，你沒有提出原住民自治法版本，但是有幾個計畫卻剽竊其他原住民立委的成果，第一個就是原住民保留地禁伐補償條例，這個法案是高金召委還有已故的簡東明委員、孔文吉委員主推，你擔任民進黨原住民事務部主任時還認為這是錢坑法案，現在原民會竟然拿這個來當作自己的政績，你這樣的做法對得起高金召委、對得起已故的簡東明委員嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我想我從來沒有剽竊過禁伐補償這樣的說法，我過去也都公開講，這個禁伐補償是在馬政府最後一年的時候通過，但是我跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：現在你們的報告裡面有這樣的一個政績喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我要跟委員報告，我們後來又修禁伐補償條例，這個部分請你參考一下。"],["許委員宇甄：因為時間的關係，最後再請召委給我2分鐘的時間。我們現在再來探討幾個標案，原民會有一個標案是原住民族委員會8年的施政成果專刊，112年原決標金額是112萬，今年1月又有一個變更契約，決標金額是43.3萬，兩個加起來是155.3萬，這個刊物主要是紀念什麼？每年都有施政成果報告，為什麼還要統整8年做一份成果報告？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，我們原民會歷年從第一任華加志開始到現在都有這樣的一個成果報告，不是我們原民會這個時候才做的，從27年前華主委擔任的時候就有了，我可以把這個資料提供給委員做一個參考。"],["許委員宇甄：所以主委您的意思是每一年都有這樣的一個成果展，是嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：都有。"],["許委員宇甄：我再請教你一下，這個標案還不是最誇張的，你知道原民會還有一個特別的勞務採標案是夷將．拔路兒主委成果專刊嗎？這個決標金額是145萬，已經決標了，都已經有8年成果的專刊，為什麼還要為你自己出一份個人的畢業專刊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，在我之前的林江義主委也有出版，還有孫大川主委也出版過，所以我不是第一次，歷年來都是這樣做的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您的意思就是說，每一個主委都應該在卸任前要出一個自己的個人刊物？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：不是，不是自己的。"],["許委員宇甄：然後來浪費公帑……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員誤會了，不是自己的。"],["許委員宇甄：為自己的形象來做這樣的專刊嗎？本席是認為這樣子其實都在浪費人民的公帑，你既然已經有一個8年的成果展，不該再為自己出一個專刊，所以本席認為……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：8年的成果展，跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：原民會的主委利用政府做這樣子的公帑，我覺得實在是非常離譜喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們是在辦國際會議，讓我們的原民政策……"],["許委員宇甄：以上我的質詢到這邊結束，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：讓其他的國家也都參與……"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝，謝謝夷將主委。對於原住民禁伐補償，我們會提高金額，召委我在15號也會排，也希望主委能夠支持，謝謝。","繼續我們請吳琪銘委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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子但是我跟委員報告其實我們國家的自治即便自治法沒有過的這個時候之前我們很多地方的自治都已經開始推動了主委我想請教你就是我們原鄉目前的自治的法源比如說選舉區長、代表是"},{"start":121.584,"end":147.647,"text":"根據地方制度法來制定的那這直轄市原本原住民的區長沒有辦法從選舉的產生這是馬英九總統時期提出的行政院版本完成修法這個跟原住民自治法的立法差異也很大那請問一下所謂的原住民自治的部分你擔任原民會的主委8年了那這個部分為什麼到現在還沒有辦法實施呢"},{"start":148.854,"end":171.553,"text":"我剛剛就鄭董剛剛跟委員報告的地方就是我們應該是這樣所謂的自治專法這個部分還沒有通過這是事實沒有錯但是對我來講那個是母法但是母法還沒有出生其實反而很多執法各位大院的支持之下已經逐步在推動像包括我們修了這個原住民族教育法"},{"start":172.153,"end":190.668,"text":"很多民主教育的部分其實已經持續來推動向了一個方向。我想已經8年了這個腳步真的有點慢了那我想不管是我們召委或是我們原住民的這些立法委員其實對於原住民的這些希望相關的這樣的權益跟立法其實我覺得應該要加緊腳步那尤其是在107年的時候這個"},{"start":193.57,"end":215.291,"text":"第一次的原住民轉型正義會議召開的時候當時的蔡英文總統也明確指示原住民族的自治要有明確的空間範圍自治的權限固定裁員自治的架構則是要由原住民族與政府對等充分協商後產生那民進黨也執政8年了為什麼沒有提出行政院版本送立法院審議"},{"start":217.409,"end":235.982,"text":"就剛剛跟委員報告的是我們這幾年的自治推動的方向是採取分流立法的方式不是用一個專法來推動那其實它的成效反而是有在進步的過程你覺得進步的幅度到嗎八年了"},{"start":236.662,"end":261.85,"text":"就像剛剛委員所指教的就是在馬政府的時候因為地方自治法把六都的這個原住民的區有明顯產生那個也是一個自治的進步啊所以是馬總統時期推動的就對98年應該是沒有推動就對所以現在提不出自治法到底是你原民會的問題還是是蔡英文總統的執政團隊不讓你提出"},{"start":263.551,"end":277.672,"text":"我可以舉一個例子給委員做個參考我們過去五個版本的自治版本除非我們要達成控制比如像臺東花蓮原住民人口最多的地方"},{"start":278.292,"end":304.894,"text":"是不是可以讓原住民化在自治區裡面所以主委我的問題是是你們提不出來還是蔡英文總統的執政團隊不讓你提出不是提不出來我們過去都往這個方向去推動但是在大宴審議的時候就沒有辦法審議那我再請教您就是你知道2015年立法院第7會期第8會期馬英文總統執政的時期立法院曾經有機會先通過原住民族自治推動條例嗎"},{"start":312.803,"end":329.934,"text":"因為當時的原住民的委員包括我們高金昭委還有剛剛有發言的提案的鄭天才委員廖國棟委員孔文吉委員甚至已故的簡東明委員全部都簽署了協商結論最後卻功虧一簣主委知不知道是誰不願意簽署協商結論的"},{"start":332.78,"end":343.729,"text":"這個我了解的狀況不是很清楚好那本席告訴你就是當時的民進黨的主席蔡英文好我們來看一段新聞影片請播放"},{"start":347.449,"end":351.331,"text":"原住民自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程"},{"start":362.597,"end":389.836,"text":"立法院長王金平表示民進黨看好2016年總統大選好像會執政所以對政院版提出的草案很敏感強調要再多溝通而民進黨原住民族事務部主任對於為何反對目前政院版的自治推動條例草案也提出回應自治推動條例裡面要讓原住民有分配統籌款的話我們是支持的喔你只要在你的推動自治條例裡面有劃定明確的自治期給原住民"},{"start":390.58,"end":391.401,"text":"民進黨認為國民黨提出的"},{"start":403.227,"end":419.964,"text":"主委您當時是民進黨原住民事務部的主任你說國民黨政府所提出的這個原住民的自治是鳥籠自治那請問一下你擔任原民會的主委8年了你卻連一個鳥籠自治都提不出來"},{"start":420.965,"end":435.145,"text":"那豈不是變了原住民之狼了因為騙我們的原住民已經騙了8年現在任期剩沒幾天了請問一下你有辦法在這個任期之內提出原住民自治法嗎"},{"start":436.867,"end":456.693,"text":"原住民族語言發展法在馬政府的時候都沒有辦法通過我們通過了原住民族語言發展法當時沒有通過我剛剛有提出來是當時的民進黨的主席蔡英文不通過我講了原住民族語言發展法不是自治法我現在跟您提的是原住民自治法我沒有再跟你提原住民語言發展法主委我想請教您就是原住民自治法"},{"start":460.774,"end":488.197,"text":"你沒有提出版本但是有幾個計畫就是有剽竊其他原住民立委的成果第一個就是原住民保留地的禁法補償條例這個法案是高津召委還有已故的簡東明委員、孔文吉委員主推你擔任民進黨原住民事務部主任時還認為這個是乾坑法案現在原民會竟然拿這個來當作自己的政績你這樣的做法對得起高津召委對得起已故的簡東明委員嗎"},{"start":489.358,"end":503.724,"text":"我從來沒有剽竊過這個進法補償這樣的一個說法我過去都也都公開講這個進法補償是在馬政府最後一年的時候通過的那現在你們的報告裡是有這樣的一個證據"},{"start":504.764,"end":510.987,"text":"跟委員報告我們後來又修了進法補償條例因為時間的關係最後請召委再給我兩分鐘的時間我們現在再來探討幾個標案就原民會有一個標案是原住民族委員會8年的施政成果專刊112年原決標金額是112萬今年1月又有一個變更期約決標金額是43.3萬兩個加起來是155.3萬這個刊物主要是想紀念什麼"},{"start":534.358,"end":550.196,"text":"施政成果不是每年都有報告,為什麼還要統整8年做一份成果報告?這是我們原民會歷年從畫家自第一任開始到現在都有這樣的一個成果報告不是我們原民會這個時候才做的"},{"start":551.195,"end":572.565,"text":"二十七年前華族委擔任的時候我可以把這個資料提供所以說主委您的意思就是每一年都有這樣子的一個成果展是嗎那我再請教你一下喔上面那樣這個標案還不是最誇張你知道原民會還有一個特別的勞務彩標案是一將拔落而主委成果專刊嗎"},{"start":574.647,"end":597.361,"text":"這個絕標金額是145萬已經絕標了都已經有8年的成果的專刊為什麼還要為你自己出一份自己個人的畢業專刊?跟委員報告在我之前的林將一主委也有出版還有孫大川主委也出版過所以您的意思就是說每一個主委都應該在卸任前要出一個自己的一個個人刊物"},{"start":598.161,"end":619.849,"text":"然後來浪費公帑然後為自己的形象來這個做這樣的專刊嗎本席是認為這樣子其實都在浪費人民的公帑你既然你這樣一個8年的成果展不該再為自己出一個專刊所以主席是認為原民會的主委利用政府做這樣子的公帑我覺得實在是非常離譜喔以上我的質詢到這邊結束謝謝謝謝趙偉讓其他的國家也多多多參考好謝謝徐宇貞委員的質詢謝謝謝謝一將主委"},{"start":627.175,"end":627.659,"text":"對於原住民進法補償"}]}},{"id":"150740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c00bc77fe72f062cb40ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a686cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:59:02 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開發這個2500億我們不反對交通改善但是其實我的重點在於不能隨便製造錢坑法案高鐵的財務有沒有自主還要靠政府補貼目前來講並沒有補貼高鐵的財務是自主"},{"start":147.608,"end":159.112,"text":"你這個新的南北延長線2500億要不要回收要不要收支平衡高鐵的財務是個負擔我都怕高鐵漲價了那你再蓋一個花東高鐵大概有兩個因素第一個我認為要優先考慮的是財政問題財政高鐵能不能負擔"},{"start":171.803,"end":199.261,"text":"第2個,蓋那個需要很複雜的,第10調查要不要?第2個就是我講的財政嘛,環評嘛,還有甚至通過原民部落嘛。最後啊,10年,我看傅坤啟蒂這個法案10年,10年可以完成嗎?我看這昧於事實嘛,這好可憐啊,10年,你綁一個10年怎麼可能會做得十當做得開?而且他要土地徵收,土地徵收!"},{"start":203.087,"end":211.231,"text":"這個是最困難的,縣市政府還要配合的,你做得開嗎?10年要拼了,還有就是錢跟法案的問題。你剛講台鐵正在蓋東部快鐵,對不對?我給你看一下,你知道台鐵靠什麼活下去嗎?"},{"start":222.011,"end":248.727,"text":"台鐵現在還能賺錢,它最賺錢的前幾個單位就在花蓮、玉里、台東、中探警。它的花蓮賺的錢,大花蓮賺的錢還比直轄市的六都裡面的高雄賺得多。台鐵什麼時候開始幾乎快倒閉,你知道嗎?以時間差距來看,台鐵的財政急速惡化,大概2017年高鐵165號通車,"},{"start":250.834,"end":277.411,"text":"台鐵差不多災情就做壞了,很吃爛了因為競爭不了,贏不了高鐵嘛那你現在再蓋下去的話我看台鐵會不會倒閉啊?台鐵會不會倒閉啊?高鐵本身就財政的問題喔高鐵如果真的去蓋像富坤寺提的10年就蓋一個東部高鐵加上現在南北延伸線2500億蓋東部我也不知道要多少錢啊"},{"start":280.27,"end":293.836,"text":"然後 我跟你講 那台鐵怎麼辦 台鐵現在東部快鐵正在投資嘛 對不對你剛才講的要回去嘛 啊去之後台鐵 我剛才說台鐵會倒賣 你要什麼普悠瑪啦 太魯閣 那不能修改 啊 兩位的看法是怎樣台鐵啊 遇到高鐵就溫馨了嘛 要不然你就做一個 啊你現在東部快鐵也在萬一通過啊"},{"start":308.444,"end":318.17,"text":"那時候也是因為要改善東部交通啊,國民黨也沒有反對啊,藍綠都同意啊,大家去騎東部快鐵,現在大家要騎,你現在又騎一台高鐵,那怎麼辦?財政可以負擔嗎?啊你現在,什麼都搞不清楚,就要編一個10年,孔主委你要幹嘛?"},{"start":332.799,"end":357.507,"text":"包委員所以我們為什麼講所有的交通建設就要循序漸進那我們現在高鐵的部分就是把延伸線這個部分到屏東跟宜蘭這個部分先做好然後同時間呢那個快鐵也在改善嘛如果說大家認為這樣的情況已經可以滿足一日生活圈了當然也有可能有更大的夢想那就可以啟動可行性來評估看看"},{"start":357.887,"end":385.618,"text":"我認為財政要循序漸進錢坑法案這個一定害死台灣你不要以為高鐵現在經營得不錯高鐵在2008年差點倒閉你會怕嗎?高鐵如果沒有那次的採改財政改善計劃各地也倒了理工控辦公室高鐵也陷入很危險的狀況現在高鐵在投資2500億在宜蘭跟屏東延伸線現在再去什麼10年內再搞一個"},{"start":387.145,"end":387.325,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c082749268f829eb8225a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:54:42 - 11:04:12","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-10"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":570,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:04:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:54:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時54分）謝謝主席，請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，針對寶林茶室，我知道我們好像也有去檢驗過粿條跟香蘭葉果汁還有在來米粉嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：那是不是零檢出？食材的部分是不是零檢出？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，都沒有檢出米酵菌酸。"],["涂委員權吉：所以它這一部分都沒有檢查出來，現在就是因為沒有檢查出來，所以國人對這個反而更加的恐慌，針對這一部分，他們說有沒有可能是米粉、粿條的源頭供應有摻毒的問題，有沒有這個可能？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是源頭的供應商那邊驗了也是沒有。"],["涂委員權吉：源頭那邊驗了也確定沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：那有沒有可能現在因為原因沒有出來，大家反而議論紛紛？也有說是不是因為成品上面長了這個菌，就是有可能是炒好之後他去保溫，到時候再加熱給民眾食用，然後造成這個菌的滋生，有沒有可能這樣子？這一部分有沒有去做測驗檢測？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，現在比較頭痛的就在這裡，也就是說一份、一份做出來的民眾都吃掉了，沒有吃掉也當成廚餘丟棄了，所以當時所食用的東西目前是沒有留樣，所以現在的困難是在這裡，就變成要往前去追到底廚師在處理這一個不管是他的保存或者是在烹調的過程當中，有沒有什麼樣的步驟可能引起這一個……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我說有沒有針對這樣子，如果他炒好後去保溫，加熱之後會不會產生這個米酵菌酸？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前所知的都是當場要用的時候才炒，並沒有說是炒好留下來的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以他說他們都是炒好才上的，沒有存放？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，都現炒的，現炒之前的食材是否有好好保存，這就是現在調查的重點。"],["涂委員權吉：那把它保存加熱過會不會產生米酵菌酸，有沒有可能？"],["薛部長瑞元：加熱本身是不會啦！"],["涂委員權吉：是不會？有測試過嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這個菌是在特定的條件之下才會產生這個酸，據我們所知，這個特定條件包括溫度是22到33度，所以你一加熱的話一定不止這個溫度，所以不是在炒的時候產生這個酸出來。"],["涂委員權吉：那醬料的部分呢？因為他說這個是獨門醬料，那醬料部分有沒有可能？"],["薛部長瑞元：醬料的部分我們也去驗過，也沒有驗出米酵菌酸。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這些都已經去檢測過，都沒有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：針對寶林茶室的部分，因為很多的病例都是3到6天，醫院才通報衛生局，這個部分我們之前有詢問過，這到底有沒有通報疏漏的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個案子跟一般食物中毒的案子不一樣，因為他是個別去用餐了之後回到家才發生症狀，然後分別去就醫，所以並不是說在很短的時間內、很多的人同時就醫、到同一家院所去就醫，所以他是分散的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以第一時間不像食物中毒？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個醫療院所可能沒有辦法，因為他不知道還有沒有其他……"],["涂委員權吉：沒有辦法第一時間反應過來。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：因為這樣子的情形，我們擔心我們後來回去找這個食材，其實一般餐廳沒有備那麼多食材，其實以3到6天的時間我們拿回去檢測，其實這些食材早就已經找不到了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有可能。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我後面的食材其實已經不是當初那批食材？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就不是。"],["涂委員權吉：只能推測這些食材，所以第一批食材其實已經沒有辦法做檢驗了，所以針對這一部分，其實採樣上是有難度的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：我記得薛部長在3月28號的時候有說過不排除人為下毒，現在經過這幾天，請問你的看法還是一致嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在的看法應該會是這樣，所謂的人為下毒是一個故意的行為，現在看起來不像，因為從米酵菌酸產生的流程來看，要做這樣的操作大概有困難，但是是否有人為比方說疏失，包括食物上面的處理跟保存有應該注意而沒有注意到的，這個不排除。"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長的意思是說，目前看起來人為故意下毒的機會不大。"],["薛部長瑞元：機會不大。"],["涂委員權吉：所以比較有可能是人為疏失造成的？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有可能，不能排除。"],["涂委員權吉：其實我也知道這一陣子衛福部大家都很辛苦，因為一連串的事項，從之前的蘇丹紅，一下又是虐兒，然後現在又是食物中毒，從社福安全到食品安全，其實當初我們就有針對這個社福安全網，因為虐兒事件造成輿論攻擊，很多的社工嚴重的出走，所以那時候我們也擔心，我們在很多方面推出措施，但是沒有這麼多的社工去執行。那現在衛福部又面臨很多問題，從去年巴西蛋到台糖豬瘦肉精，還有蘇丹紅辣椒粉、小林製藥紅麴原料，一直到現在的寶林茶室，其實從去年到今年全國的衛生稽查人員據我們得到的訊息，現在基層人員好像有爆發很嚴重的出走潮，部長有沒有掌握這方面的情況？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，因為衛生稽查員是公務人員，所以他的流動通常會是換單位、換一個職掌，但是像其他說是一個約聘人員，然後他就離開這一個場域了，這種機會是比較少的。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！據我們所掌握的訊息，好像我們去年有統計過，這個離職潮高達36%，補人的速度卻趕不上這個出走潮，所以我們擔心的就是現在發生了那麼多的問題，那我們也一直在做一些檢討跟改善的措施，可是到時候會不會沒有這麼多的稽查人員去執行這些事務？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會一直來監測這些人力，因為像衛生稽查員的進跟出，他有一定的一些管道，所以我們會監測。"],["涂委員權吉：我們有上衛福部的網站查詢，我看到上面的資訊，全國的衛生稽查人員只有119人，是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不只啦！"],["涂委員權吉：你看這上面總計只有119人。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該在112年是186人……"],["涂委員權吉：實際員額只有107人。"],["薛部長瑞元：在113年會有465個員額。"],["涂委員權吉：是那個資料沒有更新還是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們再check一下，看看到底是怎麼樣，因為這個範圍也有一點奇怪，就是它跟護士、助產士、醫放師放在一起……"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長可能要去瞭解一下，因為我們看到這個，我們很擔心，據我們瞭解，我們現在七大行業案件整年稽查將近14萬件，如果以這樣子的人力，每年每個人要處理1,200件，那我們會擔心以這樣子的稽查人力當然達不到效果。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個太少了，據我所知，應該不只啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以針對這部分希望部長去瞭解一下，因為我們看到這個人數，我們真的很擔心，以這樣的稽查人數根本負荷量過大，又要去稽查，又要寫報告，又要到現場、實驗室去檢驗，以這樣的人力，難怪達不到稽查的效果。部長，我知道這一陣子大家都很辛苦，那也希望我們針對這個食安五環的部分瞭解一下原因，能夠加強改善檢討，因為最近這個食安問題讓我們全國人心惶惶，希望能夠保障我們國人的健康。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["涂委員權吉：請部長還有署長對這一方面多加強，我們大家一起努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員。接下來我們請王正旭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.39096875,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.95096875,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.296593750000003,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.346593750000004,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.04659375,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.96159375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.81159375,"end":55.38096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謝謝主席 那請我們薛部長好 請薛部長好 部長 那個針對寶林茶室 那我知道我們"},{"start":25.967,"end":52.465,"text":"我們對於果條跟香蘭葉果汁還有再來米粉好像也有去檢驗過嘛那是不是零檢出食材的部分是零檢出對都沒有檢出那個米酵菌酸所以他這部分都沒有檢查出來那所以那現在因為就是沒有檢查出來所以國人對這個反而更加的恐慌那針對這部分他們說是不是米粉果條有沒有可能源頭供應有參讀的"},{"start":53.866,"end":80.491,"text":"但是源頭的供應商那邊驗了也是沒有哦源頭那邊也確定驗也沒有那有沒有可能因為現在反而就是原因沒有出來反而大家議論紛紛啊那也有說是不是因為這個成品上面長這個菌就是說有可能是炒好之後他去保溫到時候再加熱給民眾使用然後造成這個菌的滋生有沒有可能這樣子"},{"start":80.771,"end":102.336,"text":"那這部分有沒有去做這個測驗檢測?這部分跟文包現在比較頭痛的就在這裡也就是說一份一份做出來的都民眾都吃掉了沒有吃掉也當成廚餘也丟棄了所以在當時所使用的這個東西的話目前是沒有流量啦"},{"start":103.376,"end":119.91,"text":"所以現在的困難是在這裡那就變成要往往前去追說那到底廚師在處理這一個不管是他的保存或者是在烹調的過程當中有沒有什麼樣的步驟可能引起這一個"},{"start":120.31,"end":138.391,"text":"所以我說有沒有針對他這樣子如果炒好他去保溫加熱之後會不會產生這個米酵菌酸目前所知的都是當場要用的時候才炒的並沒有說炒好是留下來所以他說他們都是炒好上的沒有存放"},{"start":140.433,"end":156.674,"text":"那現場之前的那個食材是否有好好保存這就是現在在調查的痛點那會不會來把它保存加熱過會不會產生這個米酵菌酸有沒有可能加熱本身是不會啦是不會有測試過嗎"},{"start":158.135,"end":178.14,"text":"因為它這個菌會產生這個酸它是在特定的條件之下那我們所知這個特定條件包括溫度是22到33所以你一加熱的話一定不只這個溫度所以不是在那個時候炒的時候產生這個酸出來"},{"start":178.868,"end":204.386,"text":"那醬料的部分嗎?因為他說這個是獨門醬料那醬料的部分有沒有可能?醬料的部分我們也去驗過也沒有驗出來米酵菌酸所以這些都已經去檢測過都沒有?對那針對這個寶林茶室這個部分因為很多的病例都是3到6天然後醫院才通報衛生局那這個部分我們之前有詢問過那了解這到底有沒有通報疏漏的狀況?"},{"start":207.252,"end":234.303,"text":"這個案子跟一般的食物中毒案子有不一樣因為他是個別去用餐了之後回到家然後才發生症狀然後分別去就醫所以並不是說很短的時間內很多的人同時去做就醫到同一家的院所去就醫所以他是分散的所以第一時間不向食物中毒對就那個醫療院所可能沒有辦法因為他不知道還有沒有其他"},{"start":234.583,"end":262.36,"text":"沒有辦法第一時間反應過來那所以因為這樣子的情形所以我們就是擔心說我們後來回去找這個食材其實一般的餐廳他沒有備那麼多食材其實以三到六天然後我們回去檢測其實這些食材早就已經找不到了對不對對有可能所以我後面的食材其實已經不是當初那一批的食材只能推測這些食材所以第一批食材其實已經沒有辦法做檢驗了"},{"start":264.062,"end":283.11,"text":"那所以針對這部分其實採樣上是有難度的那我記得薛部長在3月28號的時候有說過說是不排除人為下毒那請問你現在經過這幾天你覺得這個看法還是一致嗎"},{"start":285.791,"end":312.478,"text":"應該現在的看法會是這樣那個所謂的人偽下毒是一個故意的行為現在大概看起來不像因為從這個米下菌酸的產生的流程來看的話大概要做這樣的操作有困難但是是否為人偽比如說疏失包括說食物上面的處理跟保存有應該注意沒有注意的這個不排除"},{"start":313.436,"end":326.915,"text":"所以部長的意思說目前看起來人為故意下毒的機會不大所以比較有可能是人為疏失造成的有可能不能排除好那針對其實這一陣子我們衛福部"},{"start":329.238,"end":343.653,"text":"其實我也知道大家都很辛苦啦因為一連串的事項喔從之前我們蘇丹紅然後現在又孽兒然後現在又這個食物中毒然後從社福安全到食品安全其實當初我們就有"},{"start":345.915,"end":367.487,"text":"針對這個社福安全網因為虐兒事件造成輿論攻擊很多的社工嚴重的出走所以那時候我們也擔心說這個社工在我們推出很多措施方面但是沒有這麼多的社工去執行那現在我們衛福部又面臨從去年巴西旦又到台唐"},{"start":367.967,"end":368.948,"text":"這部分因為這一個衛生稽查員是公務人員"},{"start":395.825,"end":414.273,"text":"那所以他的流動的部分的話通常會是換單位換一個執掌但是比較跟其他的說是一個約聘人員然後他就離開這一個場域的這機會是比較少的"},{"start":416.718,"end":442.204,"text":"對啊,據我們掌握這個訊息,好像我們去年有統計過這個離職潮高達36%那補人的速度,這趕不上這個出走潮所以我們現在擔心就是,我們現在發生那麼多的問題那我們也一直在做一些檢討跟改善的措施可是到時候會不會因為沒有這麼多的稽查人員去執行這些事務"},{"start":443.203,"end":446.245,"text":"對,針對我們有看這個衛福部網站的查詢那我看這個上面資訊全國的衛生機察人員只有119人是嗎?應該不只啦,應該不只啦"},{"start":472.995,"end":478.463,"text":"那這個他這個上面你看他總計只有11910幾年了只有107113年會有465個那是那個資料沒有更新還是怎麼樣這我們再check一下看看他到底因為這個"},{"start":498.591,"end":507.499,"text":"所以可能部長去了解一下因為我們看到這個我們很擔心因為據我們了解我們現在七大案件整年稽查將近"},{"start":508.079,"end":509.681,"text":"那個太少了我所知道應該不只啦"},{"start":523.337,"end":552.044,"text":"好所以針對這部分希望部長去了解一下因為我們看到這個人數我們真的很擔心這稽查人數這根本負荷量又要去稽查又要寫報告又要到現場實驗室去檢驗那以這樣的人力難怪達不到這稽查的效果所以希望我們部長這一陣子我知道大家都很辛苦那也希望我們針對這個食安五環的部分希望了解一下原因能夠加強改善檢討"},{"start":552.924,"end":553.084,"text":"涂權吉委員"}]}},{"id":"150738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0682a5895bf8aad5f91bc002822e084d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:44:26 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11:02:38","影片長度":"00:18:12","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":1092,"end_time":"2024-04-01T11:02:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:44:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：召委好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。上週也討論過，因為剛好發生二膽島的無人機事件，所以我們想再探討一下，國軍目前有建置兩個干擾系統案，一個是由空軍統籌建案，目前是中科院在執行，涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統；另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正，現在是由陸軍另行尋商在統籌建案，涵蓋陸、海軍的無人機反制系統。因為它都是防禦的，這兩套的衍生，主要大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的需求，雖然它的名稱有差異，可是實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機。我們現在可能要看一下，就這兩套系統，雖然名稱不一樣，可是第一，它們的預算差非常多，由中科院做的空軍建案，24套干擾系統還有310支干擾槍，干擾槍算1億好了，都還高達四十幾億預算，要做24套干擾系統。而無人機反制系統的部分，這個大概九億八，做了26套，其最大的差異何在？"],["邱部長國正：這個請陸軍講一下。"],["馬委員文君：簡單回應，好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我是陸軍司令部參謀長。我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建置，第一個，空軍的建置主要是運用在機場，機場的幅員上面是相當大的。另外一個……"],["馬委員文君：你全部用在機場，當時在審預算的時候不是這麼說的。"],["陳參謀長建義：空軍的部分。"],["馬委員文君：還有陸軍和海軍啊！三軍都建置啊？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，它是空軍統建。我簡單地講，空軍是依據其實際需求，譬如它的偵蒐雷達，依機場幅員，委員看到它的搜索雷達是5公里，它可能就配置了，並不是一套只會有一個搜索雷達，它會……"],["馬委員文君：所以它只差一個偵蒐雷達，對不對……"],["陳參謀長建義：它會依它的實……"],["馬委員文君：跟無人機反制系統，它只差了搜索雷達，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員，剛才說明的，它還有干擾槍。另外它還有一個光電目獲系統，我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統，所以它整個配置上面跟陸軍的價格和所謂功能性是不太一樣。"],["馬委員文君：所以你的光電目獲系統價格很高，是嗎？因為你的功能差不多嘛！兩樣的建置目標、功能其實差不多，可是你多了這個部分，就是這兩個部分的差別而已，那它的價格差很多，是嗎？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。我再做一點補充報告，除了委員所列出來的這幾個，雷達或光電目獲系統的性能範圍看起來有點不一樣之外，裝備的數量也不一樣。以機場來講，兩個進場端點每個雷達都有4套，比如是4個被動雷達……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，你把那個規格跟預算項目送給本席這邊，好不好？"],["曹參謀長進平：是的。"],["馬委員文君：因為你現在說明的，你們上一次拿一張，上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來，對不對？"],["曹參謀長進平：報告委員，我們上次是用口頭說明，因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料。我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明。"],["馬委員文君：這個是很機敏的嗎？公開的預算，是很機敏的嗎？它的功能就是這樣。你就是多了這兩個東西，可是都是對於民用無人機你做干擾，像二膽的這個部分你會用什麼？干擾槍？是用干擾槍？那它都飛到上面大家才發現，你看得到嗎？干擾槍，那時候在審預算的時候我們說，你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求，因為你說看到兩公里外，兩公里外那麼小的無人機，等飛到你上空的時候，你的干擾槍在哪裡？我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候，一個四十幾億、一個十億，總共加起來高達五十幾億的預算，你做的功能都是一樣，除了機場你說稍微有些不一樣，包括雷達和光電目獲系統以外，我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡。所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席，好不好？好，謝謝。","接下來，我們今天討論的很多國防預算，除了國防自主以外，也有委員關切坑子口的訓場部分。坑子口訓場，在上一次質詢時我們就已經有提到了，這個預算其實非常不合理，因為你本來有高達12億的預算，可是你把重要的部分通通砍掉，十項你把它砍了五項，尤其是訓練的部分。這些專管公司當初在投標的時候就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些，結果它得標了以後才說它的金額不足、所有的都漲價。全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設，包括道路也好、堤防也好，所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題，可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕，本來112年就要建置完成坑子口訓場，已經延到115年，結果現在12億還不夠，王召委上一次也提到不夠，可能還要再加價，你要加多少？10億嗎？因為你減了一半啊，尤其是重要的訓練能量全部都把它拿掉了，這部分請你說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，容我向您報告。第一個，有關專管公司它的整個評估，專管公司未必會是得標的廠商，像這個案子，它的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司，所以並不是說它報多少就是多少。第二個，實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因。剛剛委員提到我們把原規劃的十一項區分為一、二階段來實施，第一階段最主要也是針對新戰車進來以後，它的整個射擊能力上面的需求，這個如何取捨是由教準部還有兵監……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，這個部分我要打斷，針對這個訓場，我們本來就知道我們要做什麼，當時我們的目的就是要做訓練，結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了，還包括一些水電的相關部分。除了固定式靶臺，還有機槍射擊的陣地、訓場道路的整建、靶控臺的教室，還有電力、電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉，你拿來做什麼？拿來做避彈屋，拿來做機槍的被彈牆，而且還做了水土保持工程，這個水土保持工程本來是沒有的。結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後，現在才說今年不夠了、我們的訓場能量不夠了，現在我們可能要追加預算。這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係？你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告，第一個，坑子口地理環境上的特殊需要，實際上，水保工程……"],["馬委員文君：那剛開始專管公司跟陸軍及設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼？你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持，結果……"],["陳參謀長建義：水保工程本來……"],["馬委員文君：水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面耶！在本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做，那是後來才加進去的，你們把錢用在這裡，你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎？針對這個部分，我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估及合理的書面資料，說明後續的預算運用，不然你現在做了以後，連訓練都不能訓練，因為你即使做好了，像電力、電信這些都沒有做，你即使做好了，它還是不能用，因為根本沒有電，活動靶場的靶要怎麼用？包括預算的運用以及工項刪減的部分，其實是有很大的問題，針對這個部分，我們希望提出比較具體合理的書面資料說明好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["馬委員文君：接下來，這一次我們提到的是國防自主，針對國防自主，非常重要的有國機國造、國艦國造，另外還有飛彈以及現在的無人機等等，其實有非常多的項目。我們現在想要討論有關國艦國造的部分，因為已經當選的準總統賴清德總統未來也傾向就潛艦的部分希望可以一次把它完成，不過對於比較專業或者國防部所有，尤其是海軍未來要用的，我相信大家非常清楚它必須要有作戰功能，而作戰功能到底要怎麼樣測試之後，大家才有好的作戰裝備，我想這是非常重要的。在這裡我想要再反推回去，既然要做，我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分，我想要請教部長，這個案子還是絕對機密嗎？它已經解密了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為原型艦弄好以後，現在正在測試，目前它分為兩階段，一個是泊港，一個是在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講的，未來希望一次建或分段建，即使這已經定調了，但我們測試一定要做的，不會不做就直接跳過去，一切以安全、能夠作戰為主。剛剛委員特別強調作戰功能，這也是首當其衝，很重要的。"],["馬委員文君：像現在的測試大家都看到，如果潛艦可以自己做出來，大家都非常的高興，可是因為它包裹在裡面，所以大家看不到它實質的狀況到底是怎麼樣。潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的重量控制，也就是說它有很多裝備都應該要到位，如果還沒有到位，不管你用什麼樣的方式，包括借的、租的或者要用什麼樣的方式，我不知道是用什麼去做現在給大家看到的所呈現的樣子。可是我們要再回到最源頭，今天它還是絕對機密的案子，它還沒有解密，我想要請教最初我們有台船的顧問約，另外還有海軍的顧問約，總共有這兩個對不對？其中一個是GL公司，因為都已經是公開，在媒體上面也都有看過了，而SI是海軍顧問約。我想請教台船顧問約是新華荷公司得到標案對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，我是海軍參謀長。有關新荷華的部分……"],["馬委員文君：新荷華還是新華荷？還是都一樣？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：新華荷是GL在臺灣的一個勞務，是它自己跟它的契約，跟台船沒有關係。"],["馬委員文君：跟台船沒有關係？我想要看一下新華荷以及這幾家公司介入台船顧問約的部分，這家公司負責人叫柴美娟，然後它有監察人叫陳清行，董事林黎真、董事陳希亮，另外還有其他相關幾家公司達華、弘華、達弘、原景、安卓雲、達宇等等，其實這幾家都有參與其中。在這幾家裡面，大家可以看到有很多重複的名字，負責人包括郭璽、黃瓊慧，還有陳清行、陳希亮、郭中、郭琛等等，另外還有林黎真。我想要讓大家看一看，林黎真在新華荷裡面占了94%，因為他負責接送所有相關的顧問，當時介入這樣絕對機密的案子，事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，目前它是必須要有必要的保密，但是因為新荷華跟GL之間的契約，我們沒有涉入到他們之間的運作，他只是負責在臺灣一些運送的……"],["馬委員文君：針對絕對機密的案子，包括廠商還有跟他接觸的人其實都是非常重要的，我剛剛唸的這幾家公司，這裡面包括郭璽還有黃瓊慧，黃瓊慧就是郭璽的太太，還有陳希亮，他是郭璽的外甥，陳清行是郭璽的姐夫，林黎真是郭璽的太太的阿姨，他就是新華荷裡面占比94%的股東，全部都是家族。然後今天得標以後，它是我們設計約的顧問，結果我們的海軍顧問約也是新華荷所引進的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，海軍顧問約並不是，新華荷只有跟GL，他們兩個的契約行為，我們不予以評論。"],["馬委員文君：我先簡單說明到此，因為時間的關係，我們會持續安排專案，今天來外交及國防委員會的委員，其實他們過去都沒有接觸過，即使他們道聽塗說，有些甚至在外面講了很多的話，他們對這個案子完全不懂，所以未來我們可以安排專案報告，甚至所有潛艦的內容，我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見。可是我現在要講的，這個部分其實還沒有解密，而跟這個案子關係這麼密切的人，他不但直播，且在媒體、在很多政論節目發表很多公開訊息，他是直接接觸的，包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來，他的身分是可以這樣做的嗎？他有簽保密協定嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，當初郭先生是我們海軍的顧問。"],["馬委員文君：他有簽保密協定嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：有，我們當初在審核，我們有一個簽核程序。"],["馬委員文君：他有簽？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：至於他在外面這些其他評論的部分，我們……"],["馬委員文君：他可以講嗎？今天我們監督國家預算、監督整個國家政策的人被攻擊，或者用不當的這些說法，他們沒有實質的證據都可以這樣指東指西，可是今天介入這麼深的人，他的安全查核到底有沒有做？他過去在大陸做了非常多的生意，我們可以看到臺灣達華公司負責人是誰，郭璽都在裡面，他不但在新疆、成都還有長春賣軍警用品，跟對岸關係這麼密切的人，他來做我們絕對機密的案子，還可以公開說這麼多話。今天因為時間上的關係，我們沒辦法提出很多，可是如果我們的潛艦要能夠成功，有一些弊端一定要清查清楚，不然整筆預算是不是會耗費掉？或者他所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的？這個我們都會懷疑。因為我們的潛艦召集人曾經說過，我們用合法非正式管道，我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出，建軍百年，我相信海內外都有非常多的人才，他們的社群關係各方面也非常地多，沒有理由這麼高難度的案子只有郭顧問一個人可以協助，而且還可以掌控這麼多。有關這個部分，我們希望有機會跟相關單位做一個探討，然後我們需要的資料也請提供，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是，這個我們要……"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":240,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","王鴻薇"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正、經濟部次長報告「國防自主政策推動具體成效暨未來目標」，併請國家\n科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.57909375,"end":3.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.40971875,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.927843750000001,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.88284375,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.72221875000001,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.96221875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.12221875,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.07971875000001,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.79909375,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.79846875,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.50284375,"end":143.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.46846875,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.68784375,"end":144.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.39659375000002,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.30534375000002,"end":164.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.89159375,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.25846875000002,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.34284375000001,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.13159375,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.80221875,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.84159375000002,"end":189.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.25471875000002,"end":189.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.18284375000002,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.23346875000001,"end":189.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.45284375,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.70159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.13596875000002,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.62346875,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.10159375,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.53596875000002,"end":239.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.84784375,"end":227.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.15096875,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.67284375000003,"end":245.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.69721875000002,"end":247.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.79846875,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.89096875,"end":260.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.39659375000002,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.67784375,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.65221875000003,"end":263.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.90534375000004,"end":264.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.98534375,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.57096875,"end":337.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.73346875000004,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.60096875000005,"end":350.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.65971875,"end":379.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.51596875,"end":393.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.10846875000004,"end":395.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.57659375000003,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.03846875000005,"end":463.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.32971875000004,"end":496.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.43846875,"end":501.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.64034375000006,"end":503.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.67409375000005,"end":502.332218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麻煩請邱部長邱部長也請"},{"start":11.082,"end":15.785,"text":"阿蘇阿維好部長好部長上週其實也有討論過那本因為剛好發生二單島的這個無人機的事件所以我們想要再探討一下就是說在國軍目前有建制兩個干擾系統案一個是由空軍同仇建案的"},{"start":31.474,"end":53.587,"text":"目前是中科院在執行涵蓋三軍各單位的遙控無人機干擾系統另外一個就是我們之前研發失敗被監察院糾正現在是由陸軍另行巡商在統籌建案涵蓋陸海軍的無人機反制系統那我們現在想要看看因為它都是"},{"start":55.785,"end":63.932,"text":"防禦的因為主要大概都是針對這兩套的衍生大概都是針對金門那時候受到大陸無人機侵擾的一個需求雖然他的名稱有差異可是他實際上大概都是防禦民用商規型的無人機那我們現在可能就是要看一下就這兩套系統他雖然名稱不一樣可是他第一他的那個"},{"start":83.067,"end":84.508,"text":"無人機的反制系統的部分這個大概9億8"},{"start":110.953,"end":136.949,"text":"做了26套,它最大的差異在哪裡?請陸軍講簡單回應好不好?報委員,我是陸軍事務副常務長我簡單就空軍跟陸軍這兩個建制第一個,空軍它的建制主要是運用在機場那機場它的幅員上面是相當大的你有沒有用在機場?當時在省預算的時候不是這麼說的"},{"start":137.79,"end":138.43,"text":"所以它只差一個徵收雷達,對不對?"},{"start":164.469,"end":188.675,"text":"跟無人機反制系統它只差了搜索雷達對不對?委員剛才說明的除了它還有干擾槍另外它還有一個光電的目獲系統那那個是我們陸軍在外島沒有這個光電目獲系統所以它整個的配置上面是跟陸軍的價格和所謂的功能性是不太一樣所以你的那個光電的目獲系統價格很高是嗎?"},{"start":192.199,"end":192.64,"text":"包委員我是空間參謀長曹敬平我再做一點補充報告"},{"start":208.962,"end":209.082,"text":"主席"},{"start":224.645,"end":238.917,"text":"把那個規格跟那個預算的項目送給本席這邊好不好因為你現在說明的你們上一次拿來上一次拿一張上個禮拜到現在還沒拿過來對不對"},{"start":239.878,"end":259.799,"text":"包委我們上次是用口頭說明因為比較詳細的數據我們就沒有留書面資料我們可以再去委員辦公室做仔細的說明這個是很機敏的嗎公開的預算你是很機敏的嗎它的功能就是這樣你就是多了這兩個東西可是你都是對於民用的無人機你做干擾像二檔的這個部分你會用什麼干擾槍"},{"start":261.735,"end":285.002,"text":"二檔的這個你會用什麼?干擾槍?是用干擾槍?拿著,那它飛到上面大家才發現,你看得到嗎?你干擾槍那時候我們在審預算的時候我們說你用干擾槍根本是不符現實的需求,因為你說看到兩公里外,你兩公里那麼小的無人機,等你飛到你的上空的時候你的干擾槍在哪裡?"},{"start":286.202,"end":308.849,"text":"這些部分我們希望大家在花這些預算的時候你一個40幾億一個10億總共加起來高達50幾億的預算你做的功能都是一樣的除了機場你說稍微有一些不一樣的包括雷達跟光天幕後系統以外我們看不出來它的差異到底在哪裡所以這個部分我們希望再提供具體的資料給本席好不好"},{"start":309.329,"end":337.072,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們要看一下的就是我們上一次我們今天討論了有很多我們的國防預算除了國防自主以外也有委員在關切就坑子口的這個訓場的部分坑子口的訓場其實在上一次的質詢的時候其實我們大概就已經有提到了其實這個預算其實是非常的不合理"},{"start":337.913,"end":344.323,"text":"因為你本來高達12億的預算可是你把重要的一個部分通通把它砍掉10項你把它砍了5項"},{"start":348.686,"end":371.25,"text":"尤其是訓練的部分那這些專管公司他當初在投標的時候他就已經知道我們必須要做的項目就是這些結果你得標了以後才說你的那個金額不足所有的都漲價我們全國不管是公共工程或者其他的建設你不道路也好提防也好所有的公共建設其實都會面臨這樣的問題可是其他的並沒有這樣延宕"},{"start":375.111,"end":376.993,"text":"我們本來112年就要建制完成坑子口的這個訓場已經延到115年結果現在12億還不夠王釗緯上次也提說這個不夠可能還要再加價你要加多少?10億嗎?因為你減了一半啊尤其是重要的訓練的能量全部都把它拿掉了"},{"start":396.688,"end":423.074,"text":"報告委員容我向您報告第一個專管公司他的整個評估他專管公司他不會是未來未必會是這個得標的廠商那像這個案子他的專管公司跟得標的廠商就是不同的公司所以並不是說他報多少就是多少那第二個實際上也真的是因為原物料上漲的原因那第二個剛剛委員講我們把我們把原規劃的11項"},{"start":424.594,"end":424.794,"text":"財寶長,這個部分我要打斷你"},{"start":441.601,"end":446.465,"text":"這個部分因為我們這個訓場這個我們本來就知道我們要做什麼當時我們的目的就是要做訓練結果我們把所有的訓練項目通通拿掉了還包括一些水電的這些相關的部分它固定式靶台還有機槍射擊的陣地訓場道路的整建"},{"start":464.398,"end":474.71,"text":"把控台的這個教室還有電力電信管道的線路地下化工程全部都拿掉你拿來做什麼拿來做避彈屋拿來做機槍的備彈牆而且還做了水土保持工程這個水土保持工程原來本來沒有的"},{"start":483.36,"end":503.268,"text":"結果你把應該要做訓練用的項目全部都拿掉以後你現在才說今年不夠了我們的訓場能量不夠了現在我們可能要追加預算這樣子是幫什麼樣子這是因為制度的關係還是人的關係你們當初拿掉的原因是什麼"},{"start":503.928,"end":523.376,"text":"我跟委員報告,第一個堪茲口他的這個地理環境上的特殊上的需要那實際上水保工程剛開始專管公司跟我們所有的陸軍還有所有的設計單位所有層層把關的人都在做什麼你那時候都沒有發現要做水土保持結果水保工程你們剛開始都沒有納在裡面"},{"start":528.518,"end":532.26,"text":"這本來的訓練場裡面通通沒有做那是後來才加進去的你們把錢用在那裡你剛開始都沒有發現這個有問題嗎所以這個部分我們希望你們做一個審慎的評估跟合理的一個"},{"start":543.385,"end":557.798,"text":"一個書面的資料我想後續包括你的預算的運用不然你現在做了以後連訓練都不能訓練因為你即使做好了像我們電力電信的這些你都沒有做你即使做好了它還是不能用因為就沒有電啊你的那個活動靶場你的那個靶怎麼用"},{"start":561.801,"end":573.276,"text":"所以我們的預算的運用還有你在工項刪減的部分其實是有很大的問題這個部分我們希望提出一個比較具體合理的一個說明書面資料好不好是的"},{"start":575.73,"end":583.075,"text":"接下來我想因為這一次我們提到的是國防自主國防自主我們非常重要的有我們的國機國造有我們的國艦國造還有我們的飛彈還有現在的無人機等等其實有非常多的項目那我們現在想要討論一下就是我們的國艦國造的部分因為"},{"start":598.186,"end":616.479,"text":"準總統就是我們現任已經當選的賴清德總統他未來其實也傾向就遣件的部分是希望可以一次把它完成不過如果對於比較專業或者我們作戰包括我們國防部所有"},{"start":617.796,"end":642.361,"text":"尤其是海軍未來要用的我相信大家非常清楚他必須要有作戰功能那這作戰功能到底要怎麼樣去做測試以後大家才有一個好的一個作戰裝備我想這是非常重要的在這裡我想要再反推回去因為既然要做我們就要找出其中可能需要檢討的部分"},{"start":643.629,"end":670.337,"text":"我想請教部長,這個案子還是絕對機密嗎?它已經解密了嗎?沒有,現在因為它已經原型艦弄好以後現在正在測試,目前它分兩個階段,一個播港,一個在海面上測試。像剛剛委員所講到,未來希望一次艦或分段艦,假如說已經定調了,但我們這個測試一定要做的,不會不會不做就直接跳過去了,一切以安全能夠作戰為主。"},{"start":671.297,"end":675.719,"text":"因為像現在的測試大家都看到如果潛艦可以自己做出來大家都非常的高興可是因為它包裹在裡面所以大家看不到它到底實質的狀況是怎麼樣潛艦很重要的一個部分是它的一個重量控制重量控制也就是說它有很多的裝備"},{"start":698.51,"end":698.57,"text":"併請國防部長"},{"start":724.401,"end":739.558,"text":"我們在最初我們有一個臺船的顧問約我們還有一個海軍的顧問約這兩個對不對一個GL公司因為這個都已經是公開在媒體上面都有看過了那SIA是海軍顧問約我想請教臺船顧問約是新華和公司他得到的標案對不對"},{"start":747.483,"end":753.947,"text":"我是海軍參謀長。新河河是JL在台灣的一個勞務跟其他他自己跟他的契約跟台船沒有關係"},{"start":764.755,"end":766.796,"text":"跟臺船沒有關係,我想要看一下這個新華和還有這幾家公司它介入我們的臺船,就是介入我們的臺船的顧問約的部分這個公司負責人叫柴美娟,然後它有監察人叫陳清醒,董事林黎珍,董事陳希亮"},{"start":784.887,"end":802.095,"text":"他還有其他相關的幾家公司：打華、鴻華、打鴻、遠景、安卓雲、打魚等等其實這幾家都有參與其中那這幾家裡面大家可能可以看到很多重複的名字負責人有郭熙、黃瓊惠還有陳清醒、陳希亮"},{"start":807.936,"end":820.924,"text":"還有郭忠、郭琛等等還有林黎珍我想要讓大家看一看這個林黎珍在新華盒裡面他佔了94%因為他負責接送所有的相關的顧問當時這個介入這樣子的一個案子絕對機密的案子事實上他是必須要完全保密對不對"},{"start":834.445,"end":834.965,"text":"絕對機密的案子包括廠商還有包括"},{"start":850.239,"end":857.485,"text":"今天跟他接觸的人其實他都是非常重要的更何況這個人我剛剛念的這幾家公司他裡面包括郭喜還有一個黃瓊慧黃瓊慧就是郭喜的太太還有一個陳希亮他是郭喜的外甥陳清行是郭喜的姐夫林黎珍是郭喜的太太的阿姨他就是新華盒裡面佔比94%的這樣子的一個股東"},{"start":878.382,"end":882.705,"text":"全部都是家族然後今天得標以後他是我們的設計約的顧問結果在我們的海軍顧問約也是新華河他引進的"},{"start":893.839,"end":897.901,"text":"報言這可能海軍的顧問約並不是新華和只有跟GL他是GL在台灣的他們兩個契約行為我們我先簡單因為時間的關係我們會持續安排專案今天這一次來"},{"start":910.647,"end":914.488,"text":"外交國防委員會的委員其實他們過去都沒有接觸過即使他們到聽途說有些甚至在外面講了很多的話他們對這個案子完全不懂所以未來我們可以安排專案報告甚至所有顯見的內容我們希望他們至少知道一點以後大家再來發表意見可是我現在要講的"},{"start":934.895,"end":959.787,"text":"就是這個部分其實還沒有解密然後這個沒有解密可是跟這個案子關係又這麼密切的人他不但在直播在媒體在很多的像政論節目他發表很多公開的訊息他是直接接觸的還包括他的錄音都已經被披露出來像這樣子他的身份是可以這樣子做嗎他有簽保密協定嗎他有簽保密協定嗎"},{"start":965.093,"end":983.238,"text":"郭先生有簽保密協定嗎?有,我們當初在審核,我們有一個簽核程序那至於他在外面其他的這些評論的部分他可以講嗎?今天我們在監督國家預算在監督整個國家政策的人"},{"start":986.276,"end":986.677,"text":"併請國防部長"},{"start":1015.639,"end":1018.62,"text":"都在那裡賣軍警用品跟對岸關係這麼密切的人他來做我們絕對機密的案子還可以公開說了很多的話所以今天我想實際上關係我們沒有辦法提出很多可是如果我們的潛艦"},{"start":1032.725,"end":1047.679,"text":"要能夠成功,有一些弊端一定要把它清查清楚,不然對於整筆的預算還有所有它是不是會耗費掉,或者它所買的武器裝備是不是我們真正需求的,這個我們都會值得懷疑,因為"},{"start":1050.442,"end":1075.111,"text":"我們潛艦的召集人曾經說過我們用合法非正式管道我們中華民國的海軍人才輩出建軍百年我相信海內外都有非常多的人才他們的社群關係各方面也非常的多沒有理由在整個這麼高難度的一個案子只有郭顧問一個人可以"},{"start":1075.911,"end":1075.971,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"150737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07f6cae704d78792c9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a67a419371ec2b560b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:46:34 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10:59:30","影片長度":"00:12:56","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-11"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":776,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:46:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時46分）謝謝主席，有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有司法院書記廳廳長。"],["主席：好，請廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有法務部陳明堂次長。"],["主席：好，請陳次長上臺。"],["周秘書長萬來：周委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝秘書長，還有兩位列席的官員。我先讓大家來回憶一個影片，來看看一個新的法要推出，各黨的反應會是怎麼樣，然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論。我先讓大家看一段2016年的時候，民進黨提出版本，甚至本席也提出版本，當初國民黨政策會執行長賴士葆委員、我尊敬的委員他的想法。","（播放影片）"],["莊委員瑞雄：賴士葆委員講得非常平和，這也是當初民進黨提出版本跟本席提出版本時，我再去反省的地方。另外，國民黨立法委員林德福委員，當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到個資法的問題，法官、檢察官都不能這樣管到個人，立法權都不能擴張無限大，就算是個人有犯法，也是由司法檢調系統處理，輪不到你立委。這是林德福委員所說，這是在第9屆2016年時，他還私底下跟我說：「你們真的要這麼做嗎？我們立法院真的有那麼大？」我跟他說，我們再討論看看，這是在第9屆的時候。在第8屆的時候，我相信林佳龍委員當初在當立法委員的時候也有提出類似這樣一個版本。","本席為什麼今天要提出這些來就教周秘書長、陳次長、還有書記廳廳長，能做書記廳廳長，都是很厲害的，你知道嗎？法學素養都非常深厚。也就是說，大家一直在講說大法官、大法官、大法官會議，有時候是講大法官，大法官是很大的，38年第1號釋憲解釋就已經出來了，為什麼他大？大家一直在講說大法官統一解釋憲法以及法律跟命令到底有沒有牴觸，這個都專屬他的權限，從過去整個威權時代，當時就是威權，政府、總統一黨獨大，說要怎樣就要怎樣，所以大家甚至說大法官不只是叫做「憲法的守護神」，還叫「人權的守護者」，到現在大家都這樣講。為什麼他大？甚至大過於法律，就算你法院三審判決已經確定了，有人聲請大法官釋憲，說你這個適用法律有所違背的話，甚至確定判決，都可以來聲請再審跟非常上訴。好了，確定判決都可以當做不算，被當成一個救濟的理由，大法官都可以來救濟，甚至你一個政黨違憲，也可以把你給解散掉，總統、副總統都可以來做彈劾，這個就是他尊崇的地位。","我們今天來看看大法官會議解釋第585號裡面講到「立法院調查權行使之方式，並不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權所涉及事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調閱文件原本之文件調閱權為限」，也就是說，立法院當然要有調閱權，立法院本來就可以有調查權，這整個權限才會完整，這個到現在來看的話，雖然國民黨有好像看起來是進步的法案，跟2016年、2012年的民進黨法案一樣，我還是表達贊同，國會要有這個調查權，但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方？立法院不是說你要怎樣就可以怎樣，你去看看釋字第585號解釋到最後跟你講說「並得對違反協助調查義務者，於科處罰鍰之範圍內，施以合理之強制手段」，也就是說，最高手段叫做你只能罰鍰而已，到這裡而已，2016年到最後為什麼民進黨多數卻沒辦法通過？蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會，我也都知道，但就是社會沒有共識，當初是這樣來的，不然要通過，我們多數就通過了，大家還是要反省嘛！","所以我的意思就是說，我們去看看、後來事後去討論，大法官會議的解釋很明文地跟我們這樣講，最高手段就是科處罰鍰、違憲。甚至於整個大法官會議解釋裡面的微言大義是在講說：「必須符合民主原則。其個案調查事項之範圍，不能違反權力分立與制衡原則，亦不得侵害其他憲法機關之權力核心範圍，或對其他憲法機關權力之行使造成實質妨礙。如就各項調查方法所規定之程序，有涉及限制人民權利者」，夭壽喔！「必須符合憲法上比例原則、法律明確性原則及正當法律程序之要求」。今天這一些事項哪有像國民黨委員講的：「這都跟憲法沒關係」？這每一條都跟憲法有關係，怎麼跟憲法會沒有關係？次長，不是這樣子嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：其實如委員所說的，第585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的。"],["陳次長明堂：要有憲法上的明確性、比例原則、正當法律等等這些的要求。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大法官、司法院不是不能挑戰，他們也是人，怎麼不能挑戰？只是提到那個職務時，當初我也一直google，為什麼他當初要叫做大法官？我到現在還搞不清楚為什麼名字要叫「大法官」？但是確實他權限就很大，大到本席剛剛所提到的那一些。召委本身也是學法，這個界限其實大家都要守住，它在講的就是這個社會有沒有共識。民進黨到現在的版本，我跟召委報告，我們現在版本一改再改、一直改。我秀我的版本給你看，當年國會改革的版本我也有啊，我跟顧立雄的版本就是我主提的，我們也有反省啊，就是說要到哪裡，那個手段最高能到什麼地方，我們認為沒有共識就推下來，召委，不是我們不會過，是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡，你這個法律規範的射程到哪裡，像國民黨現在的版本，不是只有政府機關喔！你看司法人、一般老百姓，當然召委講說那個不是你的版本，但國民黨版本你也很清楚，真的我們立法院的射程有辦法這樣規範，國會大到把公司行號、中小企業（臺灣百分之九十幾全部都是中小企業）全部都找過來，到最後不給我據實陳述，決議完就罰鍰、移送檢調，開什麼玩笑！檢察官膽敢如此，立法院一定跳出來說你都濫權，竟然我們自己要立這樣的法律，想起來我就怕，你知道嗎？要慎思。","召委，我們兩個都是學法律的，我們不要亂，這個部分有太多的政治口水。你說大法官當然有時候他也會介入，他也會有很多政治性的啦！像當年我們在討論同婚，本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度作出幾號解釋，到最後自己也把它推翻掉、說不行，現在可以同婚，大家都可以組成幸福的家庭，大家認為這是進步的喔！可是這一件事情，如果說我們今天立法通過的話，把老百姓也可以找到國會來，沒有聽我立法院的，到最後立法院就作成決議罰錢30萬，不然嘿嘿，藐視國會，還可以抓去關，立法院到時候會被人家吐口水，我跟你們說，各政黨真的要小心。當年你可以去講說我們大家共同來思考，讓國會改革可以更進步，讓國會的調查權、讓國會整個權限更完整，這個都好事嘛！但問題就是說，當我們超過半數的時候、絕對多數的時候，秘書長，我們也不敢做，你知不知道？秘書長你今年幾歲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：我72歲。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你講，所以我尊重你們就是這樣，你們這叫做國之老臣，也不一定是哪一個黨派的，該守住的界線還是要守住，大家都要去集思廣益。一個政黨是多大？立法委員可以幹多久？沒這種事，那個底線，國家這個法制，連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來，38年第一次釋憲到現在，現在幾號了？七百幾了，好久沒有念書了，也不曉得幾號了，我的意思就是說這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來，這是為什麼？就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰極權，至少有這個憲法，就是人民權利的一個保障，大法官會議你們大家都不遵守，不管它，誰最大？我們來聯手、來弄一個法律懲罰人民，很爽。不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗，然後把我們該守的憲法的底線把它給逾越了，還是要有社會共識，表決如果會過，我們也是尊重你們，我跟你保證到時候你會被人家「訐譙」，我跟你說。","但是對於本院的一些興革事項，我也要來請教我們秘書長，次長跟廳長請回。秘書長我簡單地問，我們2月份政府機關的資安聯防的情資裡面，你看我們被攻擊的部分差不多就四萬多件，資訊蒐集的部分29%，入侵嘗試類的差不多21%，入侵攻擊類15%，像這些來講，臺灣資安大聯盟也拜會了立法院的3個黨團，大家也應該有一個共識，我們為了確保有效地推動整個資通安全的維護事項，現在公務機關都置一個資通安全長……"],["周秘書長萬來：對，資安長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就這個部分，我要聽你的看法，對我們立法院裡面的資通安全，我們現在當然有啦！資訊系統規劃、設計、分析、建置、維護，這些有啊，我現在說安全的部分，我要聽你的講法，秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我知道你們版本有資安長，立法院現在資安是由副秘書長兼任，因為有涉及維安各方面都是副秘書長的權責，你們版本來我要看一下到底資安的職掌到底是什麼，我們會再研議看看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們現在很怕一些東西外流、駭客，就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全，強化我們立法院的資安韌性，有效去強化整個資通安全的維護，我相信這個有待周秘書長全面性地做一個規劃，然後把這些執行資通安全的業務做得更完善，不然國會的議事運作，資通安全這個部分，我覺得秘書長要好好加強。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝、謝謝，因為你們版本有，我已經看到新聞稿，我也特別去瞭解一下。謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家支持，把立法院的整個資安韌性建立起來，我相信這個沒有人會反對啦，好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝你。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們接下來請羅智強委員發言，羅委員發言結束後，依照剛剛的宣示，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(三)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案【僅進\n行詢答】","agenda_id":"1132301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.27284375,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.043468750000002,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.47784375,"end":29.612843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.80659375,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.658468750000004,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.76346875,"end":38.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.16846875,"end":40.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.32409375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.16721875,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.86284375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.65471875,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":60.32534375,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.74096875000001,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.77034375000001,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.21596875,"end":87.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.75971875,"end":91.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.20221875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.23096875,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.17159375,"end":99.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.38221875,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.47909375,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.76096875,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.26909375000001,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.16346875,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.26034375,"end":130.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.60534375,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":133.56284375,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.60909375,"end":136.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.81971875000002,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.82784375,"end":160.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":161.11971875,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.35471875000002,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.78034375000001,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.43409375000002,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":186.36471875,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.98471875,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.14909375000002,"end":190.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.90409375000002,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.71409375000002,"end":201.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":202.07534375,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.82846875,"end":216.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.41471875000002,"end":218.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.62534375,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":228.36659375000002,"end":230.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.94846875000002,"end":233.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.68221875,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":260.83409375,"end":262.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.48784375,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":264.79971875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.50346875,"end":281.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.72096875,"end":296.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.98034375000003,"end":300.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.96284375000005,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.51534375,"end":305.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.29534375000003,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.85846875000004,"end":323.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":323.59221875000003,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.70971875000004,"end":330.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.69659375000003,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.48534375,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.43221875,"end":375.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.44909375000003,"end":376.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.15346875,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.04721875,"end":382.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.57034375,"end":388.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":389.06721875000005,"end":395.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.63159375000004,"end":403.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":403.74846875000003,"end":408.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":409.31721875000005,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,{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":749.7365937500001,"end":750.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":750.9853437500001,"end":751.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":751.9978437500001,"end":753.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":754.61346875,"end":756.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":756.7734687500001,"end":758.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.5790937500001,"end":767.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":767.2865937500001,"end":773.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.7834687500001,"end":775.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":773.96909375,"end":774.0703437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.21,"end":4.592,"text":"稍後在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後,我們休息五分鐘。謝謝主席,有請我們立法院周萬來秘書長。請周秘書長。我們司法院,書記聽聽長好不好。"},{"start":31.8,"end":49.684,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":49.949,"end":73.576,"text":"回憶一個影片來看看一個法新的法要推出以後各黨的反應會是怎麼樣然後他的反應到底值不值得大家來做討論那我先讓大家看一段這個16年的時候民進黨提出版本甚至本席也提出版本當初國民黨政策會執行長賴世保委員這我尊敬的委員他的想法"},{"start":74.907,"end":99.649,"text":"除非先修憲把監察院整個監察權拿掉因為你部分的調查官員調查人民也好那這些來講的話都基本上都是監察院在行使的一定感覺說立法院是在擴權這個賴司法委員講得非常平和啦這個也當初啊民進黨提出的版本跟本席提出版本的時候啊我再去反省的地方另外啊"},{"start":102.609,"end":127.362,"text":"國民黨的立法委員林德福委員他當初他的講法是說這可能涉及到各執法的問題法官檢察官都不能這樣管治到個人立法權都不能擴張無限大就算是個人有犯法也是由司法檢調系統處理輪不到你立委這林德福委員這在大陸在1996年的時候他還在書店跟我說你真的要這樣寵"},{"start":131.833,"end":135.996,"text":"二）委員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具 «立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":161.189,"end":188.407,"text":"大家一直在講說大法官大法官大法官會議啊有誰要講大法官有誰要講大法官大法官是很大的啊三十八年第一號釋憲解釋就已經出來了那為什麼他大大家一直在講說大法官同意解釋憲法解釋憲法的法律跟命令到底有沒有抵觸這個都專屬他的權限我們還從過去整個威權時代啊有的多因為那時候都那時候都"},{"start":189.207,"end":215.284,"text":"威權、政府、總統、一黨獨大說要怎樣就要怎樣。所以大家甚至把大法官就說,你叫做不只是憲法的守護神,你還叫人權的守護者。到現在大家也這樣說。那為什麼他大?他就大到你的法律,就算你法院三審判決已經確定了有人申請大法官釋憲,所以你說這個適用法律有所違背的話,甚至那個確定判決都可以來申請再審跟非常上訴。好啦。"},{"start":217.492,"end":217.612,"text":"二）委員傅崐萁"},{"start":233.743,"end":260.267,"text":"大光輝解釋558號裡面他去講到說立法院調查權的行使的方式並不以要求有權機關就立法行使立法權行使權所涉及的事項提供參考資料或向有關機關調位文件原本的文件調位權違憲也就是說立法院當然要有調閱權立法院本來就可以有調查權這整個權限才會完整嘛"},{"start":261.168,"end":269.938,"text":"這個到現在來看的話雖然國民黨有更好像看起來是進步的法案跟16年到12年民進黨法案一樣我還是表達贊同國會要有這個調查權但問題是說這個界限到什麼地方啊立法院不是說你要安坐就可以安坐捏你去看看喔"},{"start":283.222,"end":300.217,"text":"四字五八五解釋他到最後跟你講說並得對違反協助調查義務者於科處罰款的範圍內施以合理的強制手段也就是說最高手段說叫做你只能罰款而已啦到這裡而已16年到最後為什麼民進黨多數沒辦法通過"},{"start":306.348,"end":325.939,"text":"蔡英文揭示的是人民的國會、改革的國會、開放的國會啊。我們也都知道啊。但是就是社會沒有共識啊。當初是這樣來的啊。不然要過一個多數我們就過啊。大家還是要反省嘛。所以我的意思就是說我們去看看我們後來事後去討論大法官會議解釋就很明文的跟我們這樣講。"},{"start":327.759,"end":347.466,"text":"你最高手段就是科處華環違憲甚至於整個大法公會議解釋裡面的危言大義是在講說你必須要去符合民主原則各案的調查事項的範圍你不能去違反權力分立跟制衡的原則也不得侵害其他憲法機關的權力核心範圍"},{"start":348.826,"end":373.281,"text":"或對其他憲法機關權利的行使造成實質妨礙如就各項調查方法所規定的程序有涉及限制人民權利者要求必須要符合憲法的比例原則法律明確性跟正當法律程序的要求今天這一些事項哪有說像國民黨委員講的這都跟憲法無關的這特條嘛跟憲法有關的跟憲法太無關的市長不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":377.362,"end":394.221,"text":"其實如委員所說的啦,那到585號解釋的第二段就講到這個問題。真的?要有這個憲法上的明確性、比例言者、政黨法律等等這些的要求。大法官司法院不是不能挑戰,你也人他不能挑戰,只是那個職務的時候,"},{"start":396.083,"end":425.007,"text":"當初我也一直在搜尋我為什麼當初要叫做大法官我到現在也搜不出為什麼他命要做大法官但是他確實權限就很大嘛大到我本期剛所提到的那一些嘛所以張偉南本身也是學法啦這個界線齁其實大家都要守住啦他其實在講的就是說這個社會有沒有共識民進黨到現在版本齁我跟著我報告我現在的版本齁我再蓋 再蓋 再一直蓋我秀我的版本給你看啦"},{"start":425.885,"end":430.787,"text":"我當年國會改革的版本我也有啊我跟顧立雄就是主題的啊我也有反省啊就是我們要搞對的那個手段最高能到什麼地方我們認為沒有共識就推下來稍微不是我們賣過是大家去想到說這個界限範圍到哪裡你這個法律規範要去設成到哪裡像國民黨現在的版本是不只是政府機關喔"},{"start":456.161,"end":475.106,"text":"你看司法人一般老百姓當然趙偉有講說那個不是你的版本啦齁但國民黨版本你也很清楚嘛真的我們立法院我們設成有辦法這樣規範國會大道把公私行號台灣中小企業百分之九十起全部都去中小企業捏我全部都給你調來搞不好嘿嘿不給我據實陳述決議完罰完"},{"start":483.086,"end":485.987,"text":"一送檢調那開什麼玩笑嘛檢察官膽敢如此立法院一定跳出來說你這都爛權那竟然我們自己要立這樣的一個法律我想起來我就怕你知道嗎要善施啊稍微我們兩個都噁心了我們不可以 要亂了這個部分有太多的政治口水"},{"start":506.704,"end":517.57,"text":"因為大法官當然有時候他也會介入啦他也會很多政治性的啦就像當年我們在討論同婚本來大法官會議針對整個婚姻制度做出幾套解釋他到最後也自己把他推翻掉啊他說不行"},{"start":519.241,"end":539.923,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔"},{"start":541.391,"end":541.591,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"},{"start":570.839,"end":571.96,"text":"五）委員"},{"start":591.041,"end":596.649,"text":"那個底線齁國家這個法制齁連這部憲法是從中國那邊帶過來38年第一次釋憲到現在現在幾乎七百幾了齁"},{"start":601.107,"end":606.311,"text":"您好久沒有念書了,也不曉得幾號了。我的意思就是說,這樣幾號一直下來、一直下來、一直下來,就是為什麼?就是不管是誰當家、誰威權、誰集權,至少有這個憲法,就是做人民權利的一個保障嘛。大法官會,你們大家都不要跟主席說什麼人最大,我們來聯手,我們來做這個法律,來懲罰人民,很爽。"},{"start":625.134,"end":628.236,"text":"不能為了跟民進黨這個執政黨去對抗 然後把我們該守的憲法的一個底線 把它給預約了還是要有社會共識 不要管哪個鬼 我也給你尊重啊你保證到時你就被人趕走 我跟你講 但是呢對於本院的一些心格事項啊 我也要來請教我們秘書長就是說兩位我們那個次長跟廳長請回喔"},{"start":650.894,"end":663.445,"text":"議長我簡單的問啦就是我們二月份政府機關的那個資安聯訪的一個情資裡面啊你看被攻擊的部分你看到它的四萬幾件資訊收集的部分29%入侵嘗試類的差不多21%入侵攻擊類15%像這些來講喔台灣資安大聯盟也敗壞了立法院的三個黨團啦"},{"start":671.112,"end":672.032,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":699.385,"end":724.695,"text":"因為我知道你們版本有治安長是立法院現在是治安是由副名長兼任由副名長兼任治安因為有涉及維安各方面都是副名長他的權利但是你們版本我來看一下到底治安的這個他的職長到底是什麼那我們會再演繹看看"},{"start":725.609,"end":745.604,"text":"我們現在很怕一些東西外流害客就是說我們要怎麼把我們的資通安全強化我們立法院這樣的一個治安的一個韌性這個有效去強化這整個資通安全的一個維護我相信這個有待這個周秘書長全面性的做一個規劃然後把這些執行資通安全的一個業務把它做一個更完善或國會的議事運作"},{"start":754.713,"end":754.913,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具"}]}},{"id":"150736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c03d9710bef8211a6f0ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a31332d4c37b8b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:50:41 - 10:59:00","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":499,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:59:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:50:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時50分）謝謝主席，請龔主委及胡次長。"],["主席：再請兩位，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委、次長，對於重大的交通建設，大家都努力在爭取，但是也要特別提醒，不管是藍綠白朝野各政黨，所有重大建設其實都牽涉到資源上的分配及一些相關的，我們認為都要審慎思考及評估。就像我看到2019年當時的韓國瑜、現在的院長要選總統的時候，還特別講到高鐵應該用長遠的角度來思考，不要造成盲腸線的高鐵，主委同不同意類似這樣的看法？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所有的交通建設有地方上的需求，經過可行性評估及綜合規劃認為可行，我們就全力來支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考及評估，才能夠把國家有限的資源達到最大、最大的效益，這是大家高度的共識。","你們的報告第四點裡面有提到高鐵的經費來源，我問一下，如果這樣的經費，將來要花到多少？現在看來主要是花東段，如果高鐵要環過去，因為已經做到宜蘭、也做到屏東，花東段的話，未來要不要再增加1兆、2兆的經費？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：專業上可能要請交通部來回答。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請次長。"],["胡次長湘麟：跟賴委員報告，目前我們對於宜蘭接到屏東，中間經過花蓮、臺東的這一段還沒有做相關的評估。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還沒有做評估，所以依照過去的做法，要先做評估？"],["胡次長湘麟：是，我們要做可行性研究跟……"],["賴委員瑞隆：做完評估，才會有經費，才會有相關的可行性整個出來？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以應該循這樣的程序來走。"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要講的是，如果現在以這樣的特別條例的方式去訂定的話，看來主要是針對花東這一塊，如果是這樣的話，其他每個地方要是都要比照這樣的方式處理，國發會或交通部會不會很困擾？主委先講好了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所有的重大公共建設或交通建設，我們還是認為要循現在的程序，因為以交通部來講，他們有一個全臺灣的運輸交通白皮書，現在白皮書規劃出來以後，比如全臺灣可能一日生活圈6個小時，我們就用一塊、一塊的拼圖把它做好，循現在的程序來辦理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：循相關的程序來走，要不然以主席的選區──臺中很重要，高雄也很重要，如果總共22個縣市每個都提一個特別條例來做相關的處理，我看整個也會很亂，同時間行政院、國發會恐怕也會非常地忙碌，這樣是一個適合的方式嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們才說施政有其原來的發展，願景，這個發展願景就循序漸進，一步、一步地……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以建設可以持續來推動，但是依相關程序走，用這樣的特別條例不是一個好的方式。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，因為我們全臺灣的建設能量也有限制，不可能同時間擴張1倍、2倍做處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我再問，你們的報告裡面也提到相關的權責機構，西部的高鐵從臺北到高雄這一段都是由交通部負責，如果唯獨這樣，會變成未來這一段是國發會負責嗎？如果條例這樣通過，是國發會負責，還是交通部負責？主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們才說希望所有交通建設的主管機關還是有一致性，因為它是單純的交通事項，交通部現在已經有一個完整的藍圖規劃，他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究，甚至如果真的有需要的話，就會跨到可行性去做研究，而研究會循正常的管道報到行政院，我們來做審議、協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果將來要做這樣的建設，應該是走可行性的部分，由交通部循著過去的程序，就像過去的高鐵從臺北到臺中、到高雄，以這樣的方式來進行，因為這樣才是一個正辦的方式，現在如果採用這種特別條例的部分，國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式，是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對！因為我們覺得已經有既有的機制了，這個機制現在看起來還算順利，也沒有什麼窒礙難行的地方。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長要不要說一下，如果都這樣改的話，將來會不會有點混亂？交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分，會不會很混亂？"],["胡次長湘麟：這部分是會造成處理程序上的一些困擾。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以次長、交通部的意見也希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理，依相關的程序來辦理，對不對？"],["胡次長湘麟：如果按照現有的程序，我們認為是比較妥適的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我也要提啦！其實在憲法第七十條規定：「立法院對於行政院所提預算案，不得為增加支出之提議」，我也認為行政跟立法是相互尊重的，我認為如果以這樣的條例通過的話，像這樣加下去，當然次長很客氣沒有講，看來可能是1兆、2兆的經費，這恐怕是另外一個變相的，由立法院去要求行政院做一個支出的決議，將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔，會很混亂，即將來這件事情在政策上決策的成敗負擔歸誰會很混亂。每個立委、每個選區競相加碼，反而會造成行政權跟立法權混亂的狀況，我認為其實不是個好方法，還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的程序走，立法委員當然可以爭取，這幾年我跟好多位委員，包括楊瓊瓔委員，我們爭取到好多的經費，都是在循溝通的角度，不斷地在協調之後，說服行政機關啟動相關程序，像可行性等等，再來編列經費，我認為這個才是一個正辦，由行政體系來走，而立法院站在建議跟監督的角度，我認為這才是正辦；如果動輒都是由立法院來發動，行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉，將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責，當時是由立法院通過要求做的，如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候，這個責任應該由誰來負？所以我認為新的國會起來，這個界限還是要拉清楚，不然將來權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉，我認為對整個臺灣不見得是個好事情。","最後一點，我想要用一點時間再問一下。我看到昨天有個新聞出來，韓國的政府看見了我們的風力發電做得很好，他們在2030年要達到14倍以上，包括日本也看到臺灣做了283支的風電，他們現在做53支，日本跟韓國都看到了臺灣在風電這邊的速度相當快，他們非常認同，顯見臺灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上，而日本、韓國都在跟進著臺灣。主委，怎麼來看待這樣的新聞？跟未來臺灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是！因為離岸風電從2016年開始，我們就積極地開始推動，現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了，經濟部也在辦理第三階段區塊開發的相關規劃，我們希望大家也可以儘量往這個方向來進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺灣走在一個正確的道路上，特別是綠電，這是全世界的趨勢，臺灣現在是領先的，連日本、韓國都在跟進臺灣的腳步，我也希望國發會、經濟部、各部會應該持續來推動，這個政策方向絕對是正確的，大家應該要全力推動，讓臺灣在綠能、在能源這塊繼續走在世界的前端，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請林俊憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我們請廣儲委跟胡次長我們再請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":19.819,"end":41.396,"text":"主委、次長我想這個重大的交通建設想大家都努力在爭取但是其實也要特別提醒不管是藍綠白、朝野各政黨所有重大建設其實都牽扯到了這個資源上的分配還有一些相關我們認為其實都要審慎來做一個思考跟評估就像我還看到這個2019年的時候當時的韓國瑜現在院長當時要選總統的時候他還特別講到了這個高鐵"},{"start":48.202,"end":56.138,"text":"應該用長遠的角度來思考,不要造成一個盲藏線的高鐵。主委同不同意類似這樣的看法?"},{"start":57.901,"end":85.116,"text":"所有的這個交通建設有地方上的需求然後我們經過可行性評估跟綜合化可行我們就全力來支持所以每一個重大建設都要審慎去做思考跟評估這個才能夠把國家的有限的資源達到最大最大的一個效益我想這是大家的高度的一個共識那依現在因為我看到你報告裡面有提到這個你的第三點裡面有這個提到就是說"},{"start":86.276,"end":102.307,"text":"第4點,你的高鐵的經費來源的部分,那我問一下,如果這樣的經費將來要花到多少?現在看來主要是花東段,如果高鐵要還過去的話,因為你已經做到宜蘭也做到屏東,未來這個要不要增加一兆兩兆的經費?"},{"start":105.455,"end":130.258,"text":"這個專業上就可能交通部來回答來請次長是跟代委員報告目前我們對於說宜蘭街道街道屏東的中間經過花蓮台東的這段目前我們還沒有做相關的評估還沒有做評估所以要先做依照過去的要先做這個評估我們要做可行性所以評估才會有經費才會有相關的一些可行性整個出來是所以應該循這樣的程序來走是"},{"start":130.618,"end":148.473,"text":"那我要講的是因為如果現在做這樣的一個做一個這樣的特別條例的方式去做訂定的話看來主要是針對花東這一塊的啦那如果這樣的話那其他每個地方如果都要比照這樣的方式處理的話那國發會或交通部會不會很困擾"},{"start":150.36,"end":177.548,"text":"主委先講好了主委所以我們還是所有的重大的公共建設也好或者是交通建設我們還是認為就是說循現展因為以交通部來講他們全台灣有一個運輸交通的一個白皮書那現在白皮書規劃出來以後比如說全台灣可能一日生活圈6個小時那怎麼樣我們就一塊一塊拼圖把它做好那循現在的這個所以循相關的程序來走啦"},{"start":178.328,"end":195.424,"text":"不然以主席的選區臺中很重要高雄這邊也很重要如果每個總共22個縣市啦如果每個縣市都來提一個特別條例來做這個相關的處理的話那我看這個整個也會很亂啦同時間整個行政院包括國發會恐怕也會非常的忙碌這樣是一個適合的方式嗎"},{"start":197.092,"end":216.945,"text":"對,所以我們才說施政還是有它的這個原來的發展願景,那這個發展願景來講的話就循序漸進所以建設可以持續來推動,但是意向要持續走,那用這樣特別條例不是一個好的方式因為我們全台灣的這個建設的能量也是有它的限制,不可能同時間擴張一倍兩倍這樣來做一些處理"},{"start":219.306,"end":236.315,"text":"好,那,所以這個,那我再問吼,包括你們也提到你們報告裡面吼,這個相關的權責機構,西部的這邊的高鐵吼,從台北到高雄這一段,是由交通部來負責,那唯獨這樣會變成是,未來這一段是國發會負責嗎?如果這個條例這樣通過,是國發會負責還是交通部來負責?"},{"start":241.558,"end":267.884,"text":"所以我們才說希望這個所謂的交通建設主管機關還是希望有一致性因為它是單純的交通事項那交通部現在已經有它一個完整的一個藍圖規劃那他們也按照他們的節奏在做一些研究甚至你如果要真的需要的話就會跨到可行性去做研究那研究他會循正常的管道報告行政來我們來做審議協助"},{"start":269.604,"end":290.529,"text":"所以如果將來要做這樣的建設也應該是走我可行性相關的部分然後由交通部去循這個過去的程序來走就像從過去的高鐵從台北到台中到高雄這樣的方式來進行包括要到用這樣才是一個正辦的方式那如果用採用現在採用這種特別條例的部分國發認為其實不是一個比較好的方式是嗎"},{"start":291.762,"end":320.228,"text":"對 因為我們覺得就是說已經既有的機制了嘛那這個機制現在看起來就是還算順利就是也沒有什麼自愛難行的地方次長要不要說一下如果這樣的狀況都這樣改的話會不會將來會有點混亂交通部跟國發會各自主導一部分會不會很混亂這部分是會造成一些處理程序上的一些困擾所以次長交通部這邊的意見希望這個統籌是由交通部來處理以相關的程序來辦理嘛 對不對"},{"start":321.36,"end":344.571,"text":"如果說按照現有的程序我們認為是比較妥適的好 我也要提其實在憲法第70條的時候其實有一條是立法院對行政院所提的預算案不得為增加之出之提議我也認為其實行政跟立法是相互尊重的那我認為如果以這樣的東西不斷通過的話它動輒像這樣加下去當然次長很客氣沒有講"},{"start":345.111,"end":363.953,"text":"看來可能是一兆兩兆的一個經費的話這恐怕是另外一個變相的由立法院去要求行政院做一個這個支出的一個決議那這樣的時候將來這些的責任是由誰來負擔會很混亂就是說將來這件事情的政策上的一個決策的成敗的負擔由誰會很混亂那每個立委每個選區進香加碼"},{"start":365.695,"end":384.108,"text":"我認為這個反而造成了行政權跟立法前一些混亂的一些狀況我認為其實不是個好方法我認為還是應該回到由行政機關依相關的審議所立法委員但爭取這幾年我跟好多位委員包括楊俊宏我們爭取到好多的經費都是在尋溝通的角度"},{"start":384.508,"end":408.116,"text":"去不斷地去協調之後然後說服行政機關那開始的他整個啟動相關程序可行性啦然後等等然後再來編列經費我認為這個才是一個正辦由行政體系來走而立法院做一個建議跟監督的這樣的角度來走我認為這才是正辦如果動輒都是由立法院來發動那不斷地由那這個行政跟立法權會相互混亂掉那將來這件事情的對錯由誰來負責"},{"start":411.298,"end":435.276,"text":"當時是由立法院通過要求做的那這個責任是應該由誰來負?如果最後發現有很大的一些問題的時候所以我認為不應該新的國會起來要把這個界線還是要拉清楚不然將來那個權力分立的原則整個會破壞掉我認為對整個台灣不見得是個好事情最後一點點我想要用一點時間再問一下我看到昨天有個新聞出來韓國的政府他們看見了風力發電做得很好他們在20300要達到14倍以上"},{"start":437.879,"end":457.46,"text":"這個包括日本也看到了台灣做了283支的風電他們現在做53日本跟韓國都看到了台灣在風電這邊的速度相當快他們非常認同所以顯見台灣的風電政策是走在正確的道路上而日本韓國都在跟進著台灣主委怎麼來看待這樣的新聞跟未來台灣是不是應該加速整個綠電的推動"},{"start":458.741,"end":474.561,"text":"是,因為離岸風電從2016年開始我們就積極地開始推動那現在也算是有階段性的一些成果了那現在經濟部也在辦第三階的這個區塊開發的一些相關規劃那我們希望大家也可以盡量往這個方向來進行"},{"start":475.162,"end":475.182,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c09f097fec121f4a8df7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6bfd08b43458302aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:44:24 - 10:53:25","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":541,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:53:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:44:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時44分）謝謝，我們請夷將主委。"],["主席：夷將主委要喝水嗎？好，請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：第一次質詢原住民族委員會的議題，首先就我從哪裡來，跟主委還有委員會說明，我的選區是在高雄的左營跟楠梓，原住民人口占全高雄原住民人口大概37%，所以我的選區其實在整個高雄市來講，原住民人口是多的。我的選區有一個我有參與的小型建設，主委應該也有印象，就是全國第一座都會區原住民的風雨球場，它就在屏山里的屏山運動公園。這一個運動公園，我們很感謝原住民族委員會提出四百多萬的經費，體育署也補助六百多萬的經費，但是招標六次都沒有招標出去，所以最後陳其邁市長加碼，把高雄市的負擔加到兩千多萬，讓這個案子可以順利招標出去，而且已經完工，現在已經可以使用。這個部分感謝原住民族委員會，你也要知道高雄市政府很挺這個球場，所以這個球場現在已經可以使用。我現在也跟體育署、高雄市政府設法，想要讓我們原住民這麼有特色的球場可以舉辦比賽，到時候也可以讓原住民族委員會知道這裡有我們辦的各種比賽，可以拓展很多，不管是外地甚至舉辦比較國際型的比賽，雖然在都會區，也可以看到我們原住民特色的風雨球場。我一定要講這個球場在哪裡，它離台積電有多近，經過兩個紅綠燈就到台積電，所以是非常好的環境，在這邊也邀請夷將主委卸任之後來看一看，來打打籃球。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，我們的屏山風雨球場在動土之前，我還親自到那個地方看，因為那時候高雄市的原民會需要經費，我親自去瞭解，也謝謝各個部會，包括高雄市政府一直很關心原住民的議題，我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市政府在這個案子多出了差不多八百萬的經費，這個是很……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有，這個部分我們知道。謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：好，在這邊特別邀請主委，你剛剛已經說了八年了，要讓給人了。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["李委員柏毅：卸任之後來看看，來打打球。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我很樂意到高雄走一走。"],["李委員柏毅：我的選區就是在那個地方，但是再擴大一點。其實我上一週還趕快跟高雄市原民會做一些討論，原民會補助高雄部落的特色道路，對於勤和部落跟復興聯絡道這些道路也都有補助，在這邊表示感謝。此外，今年度都市地區原住民空間補助也匡列大概四年十億的計畫，這些內容包含聚會所、文化空間、部落永續，還有歷史、文化風貌等等的內容，現在地方政府可以開始申請補助了嗎？這些內容的計畫，大概什麼時候可以開始來申請相關的補助？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，這個的確是我們最新的計畫，委員有注意到，我們真的非常高興，表示你對原民的議題非常關心。"],["李委員柏毅：我問阿布斯。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是，族群主流化的空間是針對都市原住民，而且是第一次編列資本門的預算，下個月底之前都可以隨時提出申請。"],["李委員柏毅：是，除了都市原住民的這些空間之外，我也提出建議，包含剛才講的球場，其實對城市觀光是一個效益，對於都市原住民空間的補助，我還是建議原委會可以增加未來原住民就業的空間。比如說，補助這個場館之後，可以委託原住民經營，我們要朝什麼方向經營，可以跟地方政府做一些密切的合作跟討論，除了這個空間的補助之外，讓他也有工作機會，是不是請主委朝這個方向做一些規劃？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以，我覺得公共設施除了蓋好之外，怎麼樣讓它營運得更好，而且讓族人有參與的機會，這才是我們興建公共設施很重要……"],["李委員柏毅：就是我們在爭取的過程裡面其實就可以把這些條件放進去，如果它有後續的自償計畫的話，其實我們可以多補助一點，這一些計畫其實在高雄市政府已經很專長在做這個，所以我也會持續協助高雄市政府原委會來跟原民會做這一些爭取。","最後一題，根據2015年制定的博物館法第六條規定，為了研究原住民族文獻、歷史及文物，中央目的事業主管機關應設置原住民族博物館。在2016年開始選址，當時一共有8個縣市提報，高雄市政府所提報的包含無償提供我們澄清湖園區14公頃的土地，也已經確定。從2017年選址之後到2024年，我們歷經了環評、歷經了綜合規劃、歷經了這些都市計畫變更，國發會也建議原民會用「整體規劃、分期興建」的方式興建。請教主委這一個案子的進度，有沒有機會在520以前開始執行？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：首先我要謝謝高雄市政府在當年，尤其是陳菊市長任內的時候，8個縣市都希望把博物館放在那個地方。"],["李委員柏毅：我們最有誠意啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：最後就是因為後來高雄市是用澄清湖那一塊地作為我們興建博物館的地方，所以後來在評比的時候就趕上很多的地方政府，選定高雄市來設博物館。我跟委員報告，目前的進度應該會在陳院長卸任之前做最後的核定。"],["李委員柏毅：最後的核定，核定之後我們再來繼續努力這個博物館的興建，這一個興建對高雄會造成什麼樣的觀光效益？其實也對於高雄市目前這麼多的觀光客，包含高雄市，你知道嗎？昨天、前天我們不是跑攤很累，我們是跑演唱會很累，跑演唱會很累之餘，其實對於城市的觀光，對於這些比如說很多東南亞，比如說很多日本、韓國的旅客都來到高雄的時候，其實推展我們原住民文化也是非常重要的，所以我們還是會持續推動這個原住民博物館，讓它可以順利落腳在高雄，也可以一起來推動我們原住民文化，謝謝。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們也希望委員在未來興建的費用的部分，如果送到大院的時候，請多多支持我們的預算。"],["李委員柏毅：你以後來參觀啦！謝謝。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢，謝謝夷將主委。","我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席：繼續我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":3.4397187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":5.363468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.392843750000001,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.712843750000001,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.344093750000003,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.619093750000005,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.75534375,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":83.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.30471875,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.31971875,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.99034375000001,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.36471875000001,"end":108.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.68909375000001,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.14409375000001,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.52346875,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.33971875,"end":132.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.97221875,"end":146.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.22284375,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.80034375,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.62721875,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.04034375,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.00596875000002,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.30534375000002,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.12721875,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.81471875,"end":170.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.45534375,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.62346875,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.09971875000002,"end":181.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.36971875,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.71534375000002,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.00159375,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.46971875,"end":203.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.98784375000002,"end":197.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.91909375,"end":203.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.17221875,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.22659375,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.54284375,"end":211.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.54659375,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.13284375,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.88784375,"end":254.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.04596875000001,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.55596875000003,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.16659375,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.80346875000004,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.76096875,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.48659375,"end":271.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.50346875,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.47784375000003,"end":276.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.81471875,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.03784375000004,"end":280.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.32471875000005,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.83034375,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.47159375,"end":285.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.02846875,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.79221875,"end":337.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.35784375000003,"end":340.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.04096875000005,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.03534375000004,"end":373.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.71096875,"end":379.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.95471875000004,"end":382.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.83596875,"end":394.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.61909375000005,"end":410.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.12284375,"end":416.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.57346875,"end":436.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.89096875,"end":442.20659375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核定之後我們再來繼續來努力這一個博物館的興建那這一個興建對高雄會造成什麼樣的觀光的效益其實也對於高雄市目前這麼多的觀光客包含高雄市你知道嗎昨天前天我們不是跑團很累我們是跑演唱會很累那"},{"start":501.229,"end":527.506,"text":"跑演唱會很累之餘其實對於城市的觀光對於這些比如說很多東南亞比如說很多日本、韓國的旅客都來到高雄的時候其實推展我們原住民文化其實也是非常重要的所以我們還是會持續的來推動這個原住民博物館讓它可以順利落腳在高雄那也可以一起來推動我們原住民文化謝謝"},{"start":528.447,"end":536.936,"text":"我們也希望委員可以未來新建的費用的部分如果送到大院的時候請多多支持我們的預算你以後來參觀啦,謝謝好,謝謝李博焱委員的質詢,謝謝一將主委"}]}},{"id":"150734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c02abe2dfa99aca037f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6f24a9b87407f9c345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:34:58 - 10:44:13","影片長度":"00:09:15","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":555,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:44:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:34:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時35分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：有請夷將主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["黃委員仁：這是我第一次質詢，針對國土計畫法造成了全國原住民的衝擊，你有沒有因應的對策？第二個是現在國土計畫法限縮在農業的發展，包含原住民族自己的土地裡面有什麼樣的衝擊？你來解釋一二。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，其實針對國土計畫法在推動的過程當中，我們都是滾動的修正、聽取民眾的需求來做處理，包括像對原住民居住的問題，我們透過城3跟農4的方法來解決他們居住的問題，甚至歲時祭儀傳統的地方土地使用這個部分，我們都會跟內政部來做處理，包括我們的土地使用規則，也正在跟內政部做一個意見交換，草案也差不多要定案了。"],["黃委員仁：在幾年前我訪視過各部落、各鄉鎮，我瞭解行政院當時委辦給顧問公司到各鄉鎮做說明，在各鄉鎮說明的國土計畫法裡面，很多部落的人參加，有聽沒有懂，非常有聽沒有懂！而且當時我就第一時間告訴各鄉鎮部落，因為我走訪各部落聽取了他們的一些心聲，對國土計畫法這樣一個草率的決定，這樣的一個作法，對全國也好，或是針對原住民也好，真的是非常的不利！現在計畫要延後兩年，這兩年裡面有什麼樣一個更好的因地制宜的政策？第二個是原住民族擁有的保留土地有沒有放寬來因應這個政策？所謂的放寬，就是我們有自己的原住民土地，在不影響山坡地跟林務用地之外，當然在他擁有自己的原保地，有什麼樣的開放政策？這是第一個。我想這個報告，你們提出來給我一份，就是有沒有可能針對原住民保留地的放寬使用，比如他擁有這一塊土地，有幾位委員有提到，他可以跟銀行融資貸款，這是一個好的政策。第二個，我們擁有了原保地，我們如何善用自己的土地，能夠營造自己的一個經濟產業？這是一個重點。你來回答。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員剛剛提到那個說明會的部分，的確我也私下跟我們同仁講，說明會的內容太專業了，反而讓族人聽不懂，所以未來到年底之前的整個說明會，我們改變那個說明會的方式，用簡便的、用懶人包的方式，讓我們的族人聽得懂，這一點我們會再改善。"],["黃委員仁：本來你們就應該這樣做的。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["黃委員仁：因為層次上，我們不是說他們聽不懂，而是要用我們自己的方法、方式，比如我跟老人家在對談的時候，有時候我用國語去對談，他不見得會聽得懂，但是我用母語跟老人家對談的時候，他聽得懂，原因在哪裡？這就是根本嘛！你們就浪費公帑啊！你們到處說為了要因應，行政院長，包含總統，要到處宣導國土計畫法的政策，結果成效不彰！第二個，有聽沒有懂的鄉親抱怨，是不是政府要把我們的土地收編？限縮開發的農地，也限縮我們原住民的保留地？這是非常嚴重的。政府是不是想要獨吞我們原住民的原保地？這是很嚴重的。有人會用這種想法，弄不好，你們宣導不好變成本末倒置，倒過來誤會政府今天推動國土計畫法的政策是好意、惡意，還是故意侵占我們自己的土地？好，你來說明。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確，其實國土計畫法真正的目的是怎麼樣讓原住民的土地可以更好的充分利用，而不是給他們更多限制。也許我們過去說明得不夠清楚，我們也贊同委員的指教，Ano itini i niyaro' haw, ano mafokil ko mato'asay mitengil to no Holam i, sano'Amis han mafana' mitengil.（如果在部落裡，如果長輩聽不懂華語，用全族語一定聽得懂。）"],["黃委員仁：Sano'Amisen mamanay.（就是用族語。）"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個很不一樣。"],["黃委員仁：卑南族有卑南族的語言，可以告訴卑南族的耆老；排灣族有排灣族的lokah masalu（你好，謝謝）可以講。但是你要用漢人去解釋，這個立場上實在是……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，長輩的確會很吃力。"],["黃委員仁：你應該跟你們的高層好好的說，陪同你們自己相關的，並跟土地有關係的單位、跟產業有關係的一起來說明，這才是真正對族人尊重。另外，這個報告順便給我。","我特別提出來，現在全國有503個文健站，有沒有增加不曉得。我必須要講，4月份電價要應聲漲價，今天所有的計畫方案，包含它要承擔的電費，今年都已經報告完畢了，4月份應聲漲價的時候，有沒有因應的補貼政策，就是針對503個文健站？很多文健站反映，漲價後變成它所有的這些預算必須墊出這個費用，你們有沒有補貼的政策？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：如果因為電價漲價影響到文健站的營運，我們會在業務費這個部分調整。"],["黃委員仁：我看不出你的業務費可以調整什麼東西，你們都知道4月份要漲價了，本來第一時間……，你們常常自以為好的是什麼？文健站是你們執政的時候推展出來的，文健站的效應非常好，讓人年輕了兩歲以上，能夠讓老人家在文健站裡面互相進行情感交流，包含技藝上的技術能夠延伸，做文化的延伸。可是在4月份的時候……，在還沒有漲價之前，你們本來就應該因應這個政策，告訴全國的文健站有補貼政策，是嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：針對電費漲價這個部分，我們會因應。"],["黃委員仁：什麼時候？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：實務的狀況，比如說，到底一個文健站的電費增加……"],["黃委員仁：不用吧？按照你們現在漲11%的電價，以及開設這一些文健站承載的電力，你們按照承載的電力作為補貼、補償，這樣的一個角色。這個報告一個禮拜給我，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好，可以。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃仁委員，謝謝夷將主委。","繼續請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.207218750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.185968750000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.552843750000001,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.75346875,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.250968750000002,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.305343750000002,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.32596875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.620968750000003,"end":41.813468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.20159375,"end":43.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.80471875,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.352843750000005,"end":47.213468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.086593750000006,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.21659375,"end":57.439718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.345968750000004,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.96159375,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.08784375,"end":69.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.01159375,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":76.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.06534375000001,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.06096875,"end":79.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.95096875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.97534375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.10534375,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.75471875000001,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.51409375,"end":97.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.31096875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.58471875000001,"end":104.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.87534375000001,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.48284375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.93784375000001,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":115.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.97909375,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.95721875000001,"end":128.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.77034375,"end":137.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.79846875,"end":139.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.70534375,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.70471875,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.97034375,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.94909375,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.66159375,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.85534375,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.47971875000002,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.00659375,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.49971875,"end":163.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.00534375,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.72659375,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.33784375000002,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.13034375,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.71971875,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.34784375,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.49096875,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.97534375,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.49846875,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.70909375000002,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.56096875,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.25971875000002,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.97096875000003,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.34221875,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.58659375000002,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"S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台灣屬有台灣屬的語言可以講。"},{"start":369.079,"end":391.946,"text":"但是你要用害人去解釋這個立場上實在是主委你應該跟你們的高層好好的說陪同你們自己相關跟土地有關係的單位裡面跟產業有關係的進行來一起來做一個說明這才是一個真正對族人的尊重另外我特別要提出來這個報告順便給我"},{"start":394.167,"end":414.5,"text":"我特別提出來是我們現在全國裡面的文康站、文件站全國裡面有503個文件站那有沒有增加不曉得我必須要講的現在4月份應聲要把電價應聲要漲價"},{"start":418.601,"end":424.049,"text":"今天所有的計劃的方案包含他要承載承擔的電費今年對新"},{"start":429.717,"end":455.2,"text":"報告完畢了那你們應申4月份漲價的時候有沒有因應的貼補的政策針對這個503個文件站很多文件站在反映你們漲價了變成他所有的這些預算裡面他必須要必須要墊出墊出這個費用你們有沒有補貼的一個政策"},{"start":455.814,"end":475.685,"text":"衡委員報告如果因為電價漲價影響到文件商的營運我們會在業務費這個部分來做一個調整我看不出來你的業務費可以調整什麼東西你們都知道四月份都要漲價了四月份漲價你們本來第一時間你們常常自以為好的是什麼"},{"start":476.925,"end":498.89,"text":"文獻戰是你們在執政的時候推展出來的造成這個文獻戰的效應非常好也年輕了兩歲以上能夠讓老人家互相在文獻戰裡面能夠情感交流包含記憶上的技術能夠延伸文化的延伸可是"},{"start":499.77,"end":516.064,"text":"你們在4月份的時候在還沒有漲價之前你們本來就應該要針對這個政策要因應來告訴給全國的文件站我們有補貼的一個政策嘛是嗎這個部分針對電費漲價這個部分我們會做因應什麼時候"},{"start":523.453,"end":549.673,"text":"實務的狀況因為比如說一個文件它到底它的電費的不用嘛按照你們現在賬的11%的電價然後今天文件站所開設的這一些文件站他們所承載的電力你們按照承載的電力裡面作為貼補補償的一個角色所以這個報告一個禮拜給我好不好好謝謝"},{"start":553.196,"end":553.819,"text":"謝謝黃汝委員、謝謝江組委、謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c04c9b6fcda604b2fcf7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6951c1d5c912628115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:19:02 - 10:34:51","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-9"},"date":"2024-04-01","duration":949,"end_time":"2024-04-01T10:34:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-01T10:19:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我請夷將主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：原民會的事務真的是非常多，所以我今天可能會花比較多時間，請主席再給我多一點的時間，好不好？","夷將主委好。8年了，您是做最久的主委，而且是應該很進入狀況了，所以今天我做召委，主要是涉及原民會各處室的業務，也請你們弄了一個專案報告。我先問一下綜規處，蔡政府倒數已經快50天了，我們今天檢視一下，這8年來蔡政府原住民政見的總體檢。我們來看一下大家殷殷期盼所謂的自治法，105年蔡總統在原住民政見中就提出來了原住民的自治法草案，然後107年所謂的原轉會，在會上也跟蔡英文總統明確的指出原住民的自治要有一、明確的空間範圍，二、要有自治的權限，三、要有固定的財源，然後自治的架構要由原住民族跟政府對等充分協商之後產生。請問一下這八年來現在推到哪裡了？而且就我知道，這八年來你們已經花了3,506萬2,000元，卻生不出一個原住民族自治法，然後主委你不要忘記，這八年來在立法院民進黨的委員是多數，按道理來說，只要是我們蔡總統的政見應該就很容易，只要他在意應該很容易、為什麼到現在還沒有通過？請簡單的講一下。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我想委員也都瞭解過去我們把很多版本都送進來過，各個政黨的立場從來沒有一致過，以我面對自治法這幾年的狀況，我覺得我們採取分流立法反而是最快速的。"],["高金委員素梅：分流立法有剛剛講到的這麼重要的事情嗎？第一個要原住民的固定財源，以及自治的權限、空間的範圍，有嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，比如說我們的財源是不是可以直接去修財政收支劃分法？比通過一個自治法更快……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！主委，今天真的沒有很多的時間，我要告訴您的是，只要蔡政府他願意的話，行政院長帶領大家一起討論其實會滿快的，所以這八年來每一筆推動原住民自治的預算用在哪裡、開什麼會，是不是在這兩個禮拜之內交給我一下？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。另外，都原人口占比從91年的32.8%到今年二月已經成長了49.76%，現在總共是29萬4,802人了，成長幅度非常的快。","蔡總統在105年的時候對原住民的政見也提出他要支持都市原住民的發展，我們在第10屆第2會期審查原民會預算的時候，原民會也承諾要研擬都市原住民族發展條例草案，110年也花了140萬做都市原住民族現況還有政策的研究，111年又花了212萬做都市原住民族發展學術研討會，可是都市原住民族發展條例草案還是提不出來，為什麼？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，其實原民會……"],["高金委員素梅：簡單說一點。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：原民會版本的草案已經擬妥了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，那送出來了沒有？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：現在就是要等行政院跟各部會做一個協商才會……"],["高金委員素梅：蔡總統快要離開了耶！那520之前可以嗎？這是他的政見喔！他的政見要跳票嗎？好，沒關係，請你趕快……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們這個版本的草案部分已經擬好了。"],["高金委員素梅：請你趕快、趕快，好不好？趕快送行政院院會，如果行政院院會沒有送出來，請問一下是蔡總統的政見不在意都市原住民嗎？要跳票嗎？總要有一個說明吧？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，請經發處。2022年通過的食農教育法第七條規定原住民族主管機關主責的是原住民族之營養、均衡飲食、傳統農作、飲食文化的推廣，以及原住民族籍食農教育專業人員培訓規畫，請問一下現在辦理的狀況怎麼樣？"],["宋處長麗茹：跟委員報告，我們依照委員上一次特別的指示，希望這個食農教育能夠進一步的來協助族人，現在這個特色農業的計畫，我們也推動「三章一Q」，現在大概有兩百多個團體也跟我們開始來施作……"],["高金委員素梅：處長您知道嗎？除了你們已經推動的之外，你現在清楚知道我們原住民族的地區，其實他平常的身分除了農民之外，到了假日轉變為民宿業者、餐廳老闆或者是露營區的營主，請問一下，你對原住民族在自己的地方有那麼多的身分，你覺得應該怎麼做？你們有沒有去做過統計？"],["宋處長麗茹：我們想了一個作法，就是應該用地產地銷的方式，也就是當國人到部落來，食宿遊購都可以帶動部落的經濟，我想整個點線面的部分原民會大概都已經制定了中長程計畫。"],["高金委員素梅：地產地銷是完全可以結合部落產業政策的，我剛剛說了我們的族人有些有很多的身分，因為我們只不過59萬人，已經有29萬人在都會了，所以留在部落裡面的人其實不多，你們有沒有做一個這樣的統計，有多重身分的到底有多少人？然後這些人要非常精準地來扶植他們，這樣年輕人才比較願意回流啊！是不是跟一些法規也有關係？"],["宋處長麗茹：是，我想這個部分我們再來做一次盤點，我們雖然有各自不同的行業，可是我們也可以來做，再一次盤點。"],["高金委員素梅：好，一個月之內提供部落產業扶植計畫給本席好嗎？"],["宋處長麗茹：好。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。接續是土管處，114年5月1日國土計畫法就要施行了，我也清楚知道你們在地方也做了一番的說明，然後我們族人的土地使用也會跟一般地區脫鉤處理，回歸到部落的主體，由原民會跟內政部來共同主管。現在大家很擔心的是一戶的問題，我記得在座談會上面，我們的族人都有講到一戶都不能少，請問一下杜張處長，現在是不是有往這個方向去進行？"],["杜張處長梅莊：跟委員報告，有關於族人一戶的部分，他土地權益的保障，事實上在去年10月，已經發文給各個鄉鎮市公所來調查他們目前一戶的使用狀況。"],["高金委員素梅：今天國土署有代表來，對不對？"],["杜張處長梅莊：一戶裡面可能都有涉及到像雜貨店、小吃店或者是這些民宿、露營場的經營，原則上資料彙整回來以後我們正在研議，因為我們現在在制定這個土地使用規則，我們會研議看怎麼樣納入這個使用規則來保障一戶的用地權益。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你們的資料告訴我大概有八萬多戶……"],["杜張處長梅莊：八萬多棟，如果分棟的話，就是個別棟大概將近十二萬到十四萬。"],["高金委員素梅：所以也就是說114年5月1號以後，我們將有八萬戶原住民的族人其建築就會合法了，當然未來要取得建築執照，我們還必須要跟……"],["杜張處長梅莊：建築用地的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：建築用地的部分，我們還必須要……依我召委的話，我會跟內政部還有建築師公會一起來討論。但現在最重要的是有非常多的族人，我們到地方去，然後我們用法條式的方式羅列給大家，但族人非常的不理解，所以是不是原民會你們製作說帖，然後用族人比較容易理解的方式給族人聽，好不好？"],["杜張處長梅莊：我們推動辦公室有做這樣的規劃，如懶人包還有一些Q＆A，另外還有一些是要加強說明的部落部分我們也會進行。"],["高金委員素梅：未來還會做幾場？"],["杜張處長梅莊：目前我們自己的……首先所謂大型的就像應該是上個月才剛舉辦1場，還有4場，但是屬於比較基礎的部分我們持續在推，因為國土署有相關經費的挹注，會一直做到113年的年底。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這個懶人包一定要讓族人知道，然後本席也會跟內政部還有建築師公會一起討論未來要如何加速原住民區合法建築物的部分，好不好？謝謝。"],["杜張處長梅莊：謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：公建處，很重要，不好意思，再給我一點時間。我們的道路和基礎建設真的是很重要，我一直追蹤部落的聯絡道路養護預算，交通部都是要一塊給五毛，請問一下你們要怎麼樣爭取不足的兩億部分？而且我總質詢時他們答應要追回喔！"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，目前的調查結果其實是去年……今年只有45個鄉公所提出需求。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啊！不管他有沒有提出需求，你們都應該要把不足的部分補回來啊！"],["劉處長維哲：目前調查結果是45個鄉公所，所以目前做法是沒有提出需求部分，我們就優先分配給需求比較高的鄉公所。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，處長你沒有回答我的問題，我在總質詢的時候，請夷將主委來回答一下，你明明聽得很清楚知道行政院長說他要補回這兩億不足的部分，請問一下院長要下來之前，他已經快要離開這個位置了，院長有沒有交代一下？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，這個部分在編列下年度預算的時候，我們盤點一下過去一年執行的方向、整個需求是什麼，我們應該按照實際需求編列預算。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我剛剛講的是養護預算，養護預算其實對原鄉很重要。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，就是養護預算的部分。"],["高金委員素梅：這個養護預算我們長期以來就是編列不足啊！自從我質詢了之後，好不容易找到了這筆錢，事實上這筆錢還有兩億不足的部分，是不是要把它追回來？所以114年是不是可以把它追回來？因為這兩億可以做很多事情，你們雖然有很多的特色道路、宜居部落等等，但其實錢是不夠的，對不對，夷將主委？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！所以你們是不是要討論一下這個追回來以後要怎麼使用？來解決一下原鄉……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們盤點一下過去執行養護費的狀況來編列下個年度的預算。"],["高金委員素梅：好嗎？好，謝謝。希望你們能明確告訴我，到我辦公室來說明一下。社福處，原家中心10月12號我曾經在衛環委員會質詢，然後3月5號也跟院長質詢了，在上週，原本要報院的所謂這個計畫，為什麼會把它臨時抽出來？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，因為現在行政計畫還沒有核定，我們有針對一個部分要去做補充資料，比如我們原家中心的定位，我們當初再寫清楚一點，就是提供以原住民族主體為……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼時候要提供資料給行政院？因為院長也答應我在他離開之前要核定這個計畫。"],["羅處長赫踛：已經送過去了。"],["高金委員素梅：已經送了？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請你再繼續追蹤一下。"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["高金委員素梅：我們再繼續談一下，內政部今年2月最新數據，可以看到原住民的扶幼比例是26.57%，高於全體國民的17.11%，代表原住民父母養育的壓力遠大於其他人，我們非常多原住民父母也離鄉背井到都市工作，因此在部落裡面常看到隔代教養的問題，針對0到2歲的原民托嬰，你們有什麼政策？請問一下。夷將主委，這很重要。"],["羅處長赫踛：謝謝委員，也是在大院的支持之下，我們現在有503個文健站，其中一個很重要的政策，我們在老幼共學的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，可是那是2到6歲，0到2歲有嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：0到2歲的部分，現在在衛福部有提供一些相關政策，目前我們有在關心，但是0到2歲的部分在我們的教文處也有一些相關的保母幼托部分。"],["高金委員素梅：我建議，你剛剛說0到2歲在教文處，麻煩教文處跟你一起來告訴我你們怎麼做，好不好？但是我提供一個，一個是擴大族語保母的適用範圍，讓更多的部落長者可以參與。第二個是簡化族語保母的申請流程，讓我們的長者更願意申請。第三個是讓有意願跟能力的長者，在文健站兼做族語保母的工作。其實這個部分都值得你們來思考，可以嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：好，繼續我要問一下語推組織了，2月29號原民會邀請各語推組織人員召開語推組織共識的會議，幾乎所有語推組織都有反映，希望能夠增加人力跟預算，請問一下主委，現在你們怎麼做？有沒有增加人力、有沒有增加預算？你剛剛說族語的部分，在教會裡面，你編了不少的預算，為什麼就實際上推動族語的這些人却不予增加預算跟人力？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們對語推人員的預算編列，我們會逐年做一個檢討，有沒有……"],["高金委員素梅：你只有檢討啊！你剛剛講到了2月29號才跟他們做會議啊！他們正在等待你們原民會怎麼處理啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：因為這個會議不是我本人主持，我會很快和我們同仁瞭解。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，520之前麻煩趕快處理解決這個問題，你做了8年，你應該很清楚知道他們的痛處在哪裡。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["高金委員素梅：所以請一個禮拜內也到我辦公室說明一下，給這些語推人員一些保障，要有解決問題，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會持續在相關的費用做……"],["高金委員素梅：調整一下，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：做一個滾動的修正。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。最後一點時間請原文會董事長，您上臺之前好好聽一下，請問一下，您轄下的電視臺、廣播人才的進用和培訓有沒有明確的升遷制度？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：好。有沒有明確的升遷制度？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：有，我們的升遷……"],["高金委員素梅：能不能提供給本席？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：主管職，還有第一線工作者的員額有沒有擬定族群比？連我們自己電視臺跟廣播電臺都沒有所謂的族群比例的話，我們如何要求別人呢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：就是族群的比例？"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！當然要啊！然後第三個是長期以來我很看重的人才培訓，請問董事長，你有沒有掌握我們在各個學校相關的大眾傳播的人數跟科系？然後你們有沒有規劃這些孩子畢業之後，怎麼到你們的電視臺或者是廣播臺去工作？或者是他在求學的時候能不能就到你們那邊去實習？有沒有這樣的制度？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：有，我們現在的實習制度都有明確訂定，另外就是我們要加強跟各個原住民的推廣單位合作來推廣。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我再問你，你跟大眾傳播的科系之間，有沒有數據？你手上。你如果沒有數據的話，你怎麼跟他們交流？怎麼跟他們對接？你們等於是被動式的，沒有主動式的，那我們培養了這麼多的孩子，連我們自己的電視臺、連自己的廣播臺都進不去，你不覺得很奇怪嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們過去有這方面的資料，不過應該要再重新更新，我們再回報委員。"],["高金委員素梅：董事長，請您把我剛剛說的三個問題提供給我。第一個，電視臺、廣播的人才進用和培訓，怎麼進用、培訓？第二個，有沒有明確的升遷制度？第三個，這些就讀相關傳播的人數跟科系，你們有沒有資料？最後一個，提出具體的規劃，好不好？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：好，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。謝謝主席給我一點時間，謝謝您。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金召委，謝謝主委。下一位我們請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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工所來調查他們目前這個遺戶的使用狀況那原則上在這遺戶裡面可能都有涉及到像雜貨店、小吃店或者是一些民宿或者露營場的這樣的經營"},{"start":426.128,"end":434.036,"text":"原則上這個資料彙整回來以後我們正在研議因為我們現在在制定這個土地使用規則我們會研議怎麼樣納入這個使用規則來保障那個一戶你能不能資料告訴我大概有8萬多戶"},{"start":440.962,"end":456.553,"text":"如果分棟的話就是個別棟大概將近12萬到14萬所以也就是說114年5月1號以後我們將有8萬戶的原住民族人他的建築就會合法了當然未來有取得建築之後我們還必須要跟建築用地的"},{"start":456.753,"end":478.132,"text":"建築用地的部分我們還必須要以我召委的話我會來跟內政部還有建築工會一起來討論但是現在最重要的就是有非常多的族人我們到的地方去然後我們用法條式的羅列給大家我們的族人非常的不理解所以是不是原民會你們製作縮帖然後讓我們族人比較容易理解的方式給族人聽好不好"},{"start":479.037,"end":504.251,"text":"這個我們在推動辦公室有做這樣的規劃懶人包還有一些QA的另外就是有一些要加強說明的部落的部分我們也會進行未來還會做幾場目前我們自己的所謂大型就是像上個月才剛剛應該是上個月才剛剛舉辦一場還有四場但是屬於比較基礎的部分我們持續在推因為我們跟那個國土署有相關的經費的一組一直做到113年的年底"},{"start":506.112,"end":533.741,"text":"一定這個懶人包一定要讓族人知道那他本席也會跟內政部還有那個建築師公會我們一起來討論未來要如何加速我們這個原住民取得合法建築物的部分好不好謝謝公建處很重要不好意思再給我一點時間我們的道路和基礎建設真的是很重要我一直追蹤這個部落聯絡道路養護預算我們的交通部都是給要一塊給五毛請問一下你們要怎麼樣爭取"},{"start":535.459,"end":560.021,"text":"不足的這個兩億的部分而且我的總質詢他們答應要做回喔包委員目前調查結果其實這去年今年只有45個鄉公所提出需求沒有啊不管他提不出需求你們當然應該要把補足那個不足的部分補回來啊我目前調查結果是45個鄉公所所以我目前做法就是沒有提出需求的部分我們就優先分配給需求比較高的"},{"start":560.734,"end":576.843,"text":"沒有 處長你沒有回答我的問題我在總諮詢的時候一將主委來回答一下你明明聽得很清楚知道行政院長說他要補回這2億不足的部分請問一下院長要下來之前已經快要離開這個位置了院長有沒有交代一下"},{"start":578.274,"end":590.167,"text":"根委包括我們這個部分在編列下年度的預算的時候盤點一下過去一年執行的方向那整個需求是什麼我們應該按照實際期的編列預算沒有我剛剛講的是養護預算養護預算其實對營商很重要"},{"start":594.291,"end":621.016,"text":"養護率預算我們長期以來就是編列不足啊然後自從我質詢了之後好不容易找到了這筆錢啊那事實上這筆錢還有2億不足的部分啊是不是要把它追回來所以114年是不是可以把它追回來因為這2億可以做很多事情耶你們雖然有很多的特色道路移居部落等等其實是不夠錢的對不對 宜將主委是對啊 所以你們是不是要怎麼討論一下這個追回來以後要怎麼使用"},{"start":621.716,"end":647.011,"text":"我們對養護會的部分來談舔一下過去執行的狀況來編列下個年度的預算好 謝謝希望你們能明確告訴我這個大概到我辦公室來說明一下社福處原住民中心10月12號我曾經跟衛環委員會來質詢然後也在3月5號也跟院長質詢了在上週原本要報院的所謂的這個計畫為什麼會把它臨時抽出來"},{"start":650.513,"end":669.324,"text":"跟委員報告 因為現在行政計畫還沒有核定 那我們有針對有一個部分要去做一個補充資料那比如說像我們的那個原加重慶的定位 我們當初再寫清楚一點就是提供以原住民族主體為本什麼時候要提供資料給行政院 因為院長也答應我在他離開之前要把他核定這個計畫已經送過去了已經送了齁 好 請你再繼續追蹤一下"},{"start":673.726,"end":697.169,"text":"好,我們再繼續談一下,內政部今年2月最新數據看到原住民的扶幼比例是26.57,高於全體國民的17.11,代表原住民的父母養育的壓力遠大於其他人。然後我們非常多原住民父母也離鄉背井到都市工作,因此在部落裡面常看到隔代教育的問題。0到2歲的原民脫穎,你們有什麼政策?請問一下。"},{"start":698.01,"end":710.484,"text":"一項主委這很重要那謝謝委員那也是在大院的支持之下我們現在503這個文件上那其中一個很重要的政策我們在那個老幼供學部分我知道可是文件有時候這個是2到6歲0到2歲有嗎"},{"start":713.027,"end":726.714,"text":"是那領導兩歲的部分現在在衛福部他有提供一些相關的一個偵測也目前是有在做一個我們有在做一個關係但是領導二歲的部分那在我們的交通處也有一些相關一個保姆誘託的部分這樣我建議領導二歲"},{"start":728.255,"end":753.473,"text":"你剛剛說在教文處那麻煩教文處跟你這個這個一起來告訴我你們怎麼做好不好但是我提供一個一個是擴大族語保姆的適用範圍讓更多的部落長者可以參與第二個是簡化族語保姆的申請流程讓我們的長者更願意申請第三個是讓有意願跟能力的長者在文件站兼做族語保姆的工作其實這個部分都可以值得你們來思考可以嗎"},{"start":755.387,"end":780.209,"text":"好繼續我要問一下語推組織了2月29號原民會邀請各語推組織的人員召開語推組織共事的會議幾乎所有語推組織都有反應希望能夠增加人力跟預算請問一下主委你們怎麼做現在有沒有增加人力有沒有增加預算你剛剛說主語的部分在教會裡面你編了不少的預算為什麼在實際上推動主語的這些人不給他增加的預算跟人力"},{"start":781.161,"end":793.136,"text":"我們對已推人員的預算編列我們會逐年做一個檢討有沒有你這個檢討啊你剛剛講到了2月29號你才跟他們做會議啊他們正在等待你們原民會怎麼處理啊"},{"start":794.756,"end":820.187,"text":"五二零之前麻煩趕快要處理解決這個問題你做了八年你應該很清楚知道他們的痛處在哪裡所以一個月不要一個月一個禮拜也到我辦公室說明一下給這些輿推人員一些保障跟他們要有的解決問題好不好我們會持續在相關的費用做一個"},{"start":821.467,"end":838.515,"text":"調整一下好不好做一個滾動的修正好謝謝繼續請原民會最後一點時間原民會的董事長請問一下您上台之前您好好聽一下您小小裡面的電視台廣播人才你們禁用和培訓有沒有明確的升遷制度請問"},{"start":841.843,"end":860.983,"text":"有沒有明確的申請制度有沒有提供給本席然後主管職還有第一線工作者的緣額有沒有一定族群比連我們自己電視台跟廣播電台都沒有所謂的族群比例的話我們如何要求別人呢"},{"start":861.718,"end":886.028,"text":"就是族群的比例對阿當然要阿然後第三個是長期以來我很看重的人才培訓請問董事長你有沒有掌握我們在各個學校相關的大眾傳播的人數跟科系然後呢你們有沒有規劃這些孩子畢業之後怎麼到你們的電視台或是廣播台去工作嗎那或者是他在求學的時候能不能就到你們那邊去做實習有沒有這樣的制度"},{"start":886.553,"end":902.444,"text":"有,我們現在的實習制度都明確定定,然後另外就是我們要加強跟各個原住民的推廣單位合作來推動。好,我再問你,你跟大眾傳播的科系有沒有數據你手上?"},{"start":904.065,"end":917.585,"text":"你如果沒有數據的話你怎麼跟他們做對交流怎麼跟他們做對接你們等於是被動式的沒有主動式的那我們培養了這麼多的孩子連我們自己的電視台連自己的廣播台進不去你不是覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":918.971,"end":944.398,"text":"我們過去有這方面的資料不過應該要再重新更新董事長請您把我剛剛說的三個問題提供給我第一個電視台廣播的人才禁用和培訓怎麼禁用培訓第二個有沒有明確的升遷制度第三個這些就讀相關傳播的人數跟科系你們有沒有資料然後最後一個提出具體的規劃好不好謝謝主席給我一點時間謝謝您好謝謝高建昭"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}