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地點本院議場報告事項一宣讀本院第11屆第1會期第7次會議議事錄二十八委員吳秉瑞等局公民投票法公職委員選區報名發交內政委員審查"},{"start":2275.251,"end":2295.976,"text":"定義法、天然氣事業法、公司法、交經濟委員審查民法、交司法及法座委員審查、兒童及少年福利與權益保障法、交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查9至10委員民屬分配一具、就業保險法、性別平等工作法、交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查11至12委員王月明等一具、工會法、交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查"},{"start":2296.636,"end":2322.936,"text":"人工生殖法教社會福利及衛生環境司法及法資料委員審查委員楊強英等女區工廠管理輔導法教經濟委員審查14至18委員核心存等女區特殊經濟家庭輔助條例精神衛生法教社會福利及衛生環境委員審查國民體育法教教育及文化委員審查衛生服務部組織法教司法及法資社會福利及衛生環境兩位委員審查公共法教交通委員審查19至20委員傅坤琦等女區地方稅法通則"},{"start":2323.957,"end":2348.055,"text":"交財政內政人員審查 地方民意代表分支給其村里長書補助費補助條例 交內政人員審查21至25委員李昆澤等局 客家基本法 交內政人員審查就業服務法 性別平等工作法 勞工保險法 勞工保險條例交社會福利及衛生環境人員審查26至30委員邱志偉等局 個人資料保護法 漁會法 農會法 交經濟人員審查監察法 交司法法制人員審查"},{"start":2349.276,"end":2364.596,"text":"政案交易稅條例交財政委員審查31委員許新運等於中華民國新發交司法及法作為審查35委員蔡易宇等於具正義交易法交財政委員審查33國民黨團委員具國防產業方案條例交外交局國防經濟聯會審查34至35委員劉建國等於具"},{"start":2367.359,"end":2385.464,"text":"動物保護法加經濟委員審查再生醫療治濟管理條例交稅及環境委員審查36委員陳冠廷等局公務法加交通委員審查37委員羅志強等局公務投票加內政委員審查38委員林月琴等局行行交通安全設施條例交內政財"},{"start":2386.324,"end":2403.042,"text":"交通兩位審查39至43委員王洪威等居保姓法教財政委員審查學校女士健康促進法教教育及文化委員審查教師待遇條例教私法及法治教育及文化兩位審查身障害者權益保障法教社會福利及衛生環境委員審查"},{"start":2404.443,"end":2430.433,"text":"44至47委員 料現象等據職業安全衛生法 勞工保險條例交稅費及衛生環境委員審查戶務稅條例交財政委員審查消防法交內政委員審查48至50委員 零4名等據公務委員推修自檢輔助法交司法局法徵委員審查所得稅法 加持型及非加持型營業稅法交財政委員審查51至55委員賴任等據海洋保育法交內政委員審查個人資料保護法公民教育法交財政經濟委員審查"},{"start":2432.154,"end":2459.465,"text":"自動安全管理法﹚交通委員審查﹚立法院組織法﹚司法及法律委員審查﹚56至58委員﹚索性權等據﹚老公職業災害保險及保護法﹚委員信奉等據﹚性別平等工作法﹚兒童及少年福利與權利保障法﹚交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查﹚59至61委員﹚旅營等據﹚老年農民福利經濟正經調理﹚交社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三務委員審查﹚立法院職權行政法﹚司法及法律委員審查﹚"},{"start":2460.685,"end":2480.84,"text":"62 至 63 委員 陳昌明等局 中華民國新法 公務委員 退休 自遣 撫恤法 交司法及法制 委員審查64 委員 范玉等局 地方民意代表 分農知己及村民掌書 補儲費 補儲條例 將內政務委員審查65 至 66 委員 翁曉琳等局 公務委員選舉 報名法 將內政務委員審查国家通訊傳播委員會組織法 交司法及法制 交通量務委員審查"},{"start":2481.881,"end":2510.678,"text":"6月7委員往事件等據中小企業發展條例交經濟委員審查69至71委員虛譽證等據地方民意代表費用知己及村民離場事務補助費補助條例交內政委員審查財政收支劃分法交財政委員審查公務委員退休資遣撫恤法交司法及法治委員審查公立學校教職員退休資遣撫恤條例交司法及法治教育及文化良委員審查72至73委員延寬衡等據癌症防治法兒童及少年福利與權益保障法"},{"start":2511.118,"end":2533.069,"text":"教授FD及衛生環境委員審查7月4至7月16委員馬文君等據老年文明福利經驗暫行條例教授FD及衛生環境經濟內政三委員審查國民年金法9月服務法教授FD及衛生環境委員審查7月7至7月9委員洪孟凱等引據學生輔導法教育局文化委員審查中華民國刑法教育司法署委員審查"},{"start":2534.41,"end":2559.466,"text":"財政授誌劃分法 財政委員審查中加病等局 法務部調查局組織法 司法及法治委員審查黃秀芳領據 地方民意代表分員知己及村里長 收入補助費 補助條例 將內政委員審查人工生殖法 社會福利及衛生環境 司法及法治兩位委員審查再生醫療法 醫學工程師法 再生醫療知己條例 社會福利及衛生環境委員審查徐曉新等局"},{"start":2561.907,"end":2589.818,"text":"住宅法價內政委員審查再生聯盟發言條例加經濟委員審查88至95委員黃建豪等局都市計劃法價內政委員審查公務委員退休資權撫恤法加司法及法制委員審查公立學校教職委員退休資錢撫恤條例加司法及法制教育及文化良務委員審查91至94委員鄭天才等居立法院職權新生法加司法及法制委員審查遠洋漁業條例森林法農會法加經濟委員審查95委員王美惠等局"},{"start":2590.598,"end":2618.143,"text":"行人交通安全設施條例 將內政交通量為審查九四六委員 高精素美等區海洋保育法 將內政為審查九七至九九委員 羅廷瑞等區 民法法 將內政為審查金融媒體與數位平臺強制溢價法 將交通教育及文化量為審查勞動基準法 將社會福利及衛生環境為審查一百行政院 海關進口稅則 將財政為審查一百零一至三百三十五內政部 海委會 行政院 經濟部 農業部"},{"start":2620.343,"end":2640.288,"text":"財政部、金管會、交易部、河南會、交通部、司法院、法務部、考試院、審計部、勞動部、衛福部、環境部、客委會、中選匯率委會、外交部、國防部、交易會、退輔會等含送書面資料交相關委員會336-337 園運會、立法院秘書案等含會預算決議事項交相關委員會處理338-339 財政社會福利及衛生環境委員會含會委員會交付事項也僅依審查或處理文件請查照案"},{"start":2649.97,"end":2676.371,"text":"三百四十四 三百四十二 交通委員會 韓衛域 行政命運審查期限請查照案國民黨黨團提議 整理一十三國民黨黨團領區 外公園 軍官 學院 福利 電視 教育 外交及國防 國民 審查全民健康保險法 老人福利法 教授 社會福利及衛生環境委員 審查事務委員 翁曉琳等領區立法院職權刑事法 教司法及法治委員 審查五至六委員圖券慶典 領區就業服務法 教授 社會福利及衛生環境委員 審查民黨黨團提議此 整理"},{"start":2678.293,"end":2686.065,"text":"7至10民進黨黨團議局．立法委員行為法．立法院組織法．立法院職權行政法．立法院議事規則交司法及法治委員審查"},{"start":2687.963,"end":2706.954,"text":"11委員 中嘉賓等局 地方民意代表 非人知己及村里長事務補助費補助條例 將內政委員審查12委員 蘇僑衛等局 行人交通安全設施 條例將內政交通量為審查3至25委員 武麗華等局 原住民族學校法教教育文化內政量為審查原住民保留地進房補償 條例將內政經濟量為審查"},{"start":2709.535,"end":2721.07,"text":"財政授誌劃分法較財政委員審查地方制度法較內政司法局法治兩位委員審查原住民族教育法較教育及文化內政兩位委員審查原住民族基本法較內政委員審查賭市差區法較經濟委員審查臺灣民眾黨黨團第一森列21至23臺灣民眾黨黨團領軍"},{"start":2727.939,"end":2729.6,"text":"議程草案報告事項第54案提案委員賴瑞榮委員來函撤回欲刪除"},{"start":2755.844,"end":2759.498,"text":"我們現在請登記委員發言第一位請羅委員 庭委發言"},{"start":2772.861,"end":2798.289,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想本院中國國民黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第8次會議議事日程提議報告四項依依事日程草案含針列通過是否有當含情敬請公決 謝謝下一位我們請林委員除因發言"},{"start":2813.122,"end":2833.708,"text":"謝謝主席喔 那麼剛剛其實羅委員 庭委所念的內容跟我們的是類似的 所以但是我還是一樣講一下我們的提案針對第11屆第1會期第8次會議議程報告事項 執行事項 建請按照議事日程草案以及各黨團提議增列報告事項通過提案人 民主經濟部黨立法院黨團林楚英謝謝"},{"start":2837.992,"end":2842.736,"text":"國民黨的提案是有包括各黨團的提案整列報告在裡頭是是沒有嗎"},{"start":2866.721,"end":2867.882,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":2936.276,"end":2948.504,"text":"主席這邊宣告因為是這樣剛剛口頭是有羅委員是有說含針鏈那因為這個提案的部分文字也有這個是"},{"start":2994.563,"end":3018.617,"text":"因為我們現在是報告事項因為我們會分兩個不同的發言我們現在是處理報告事項那等一下討論事項會再進行到討論事項的部分因為我們報告事項跟討論事項是分開處理的我們現在是正在處理報告事項"},{"start":3027.044,"end":3049.53,"text":"這個我們拿到的書面資料跟講的內容不一樣剛剛看你們好像兩份書面資料也不一樣那我們這個會議我們手頭上拿到的書面資料的內容到底怎麼算算是他剛才講的時候有說整列報告事項但是我們拿到的書面是沒有整列報告事項所以這個是不是請我們會議議事人員說明一下"},{"start":3073.152,"end":3084.282,"text":"這個部分還是要以現場發言為準那不然就是說請以後大家能夠提早把資料送交委員會但是一切確實還是以發言為準"},{"start":3100.077,"end":3126.88,"text":"好 那個登記委員已經發言完畢 現在進行處理請問對羅委員及林委員的提議照草案及甄列通過 有無異議好 沒有異議的話 那無異議就通過那報告事項修正通過 質詢事項通過好 那請宣讀議程草案討論事項"},{"start":3130.218,"end":3143.535,"text":"本院國民黨黨團建請願會作成決議立即停止調漲電價並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施請公決案"},{"start":3144.376,"end":3159.563,"text":"2.本院臺灣民用農黨團建起委員會作成決議,要求經濟部針對臺灣整體能源政策、電價費率結構等向本院經濟委員會提出全面檢討報告,且經本院經濟委員會審議通過前電價全面緩漲"},{"start":3160.923,"end":3183.704,"text":"請公決案3.本院臺灣民眾黨黨團建情願會作成決議要求民運黨執政的行政院履行政治承諾立即停職在章濱工業區興建金鼎焚化爐請公決案宣讀完畢好謝謝好那宣讀完畢之後我們現在請登記的委員發言第一位請羅委員庭委發言"},{"start":3191.448,"end":3208.228,"text":"好謝謝主席中國國民黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第8次會議議事日程提議討論事項依議事日程草案通過是否有當進行公決謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請第二位林委員處應發言"},{"start":3221.132,"end":3241.262,"text":"針對第11屆第1會期第8次會議議事日程討論事項建請照下表所列議案通過是否有當進行公學提案人民主進步黨立法院黨團林楚瑩好委員都已發言完畢現在進行處理那"},{"start":3253.609,"end":3275.246,"text":"好 我們請議事人員待會宣讀提案本月民主金服黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第8次會議議事日程討論事項 建請照下表所列議案通過一 中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分審查總報告案提案人民主金服黨立法院黨團 宣讀完畢"},{"start":3280.942,"end":3307.68,"text":"登記委員已經發言完畢我們現在進行處理先提案先處理如果羅委員提案通過就不再處理林委員的提案請問對羅委員提案有無異議無異議的話通過討論事項通過本次會議討論事項總述內容及順序已確定其他提案不再處理接下來"},{"start":3308.476,"end":3323.489,"text":"好請宣讀人民請願案人民請願案一一請願把第4條規定系屬一例訴訟之事上則一案二一立法院職權行使法第65條第二項規定橫轉全職機關處理者共5萬宣讀案比請問有異議沒有異議的話通過請問有臨時動議"},{"start":3336.104,"end":3338.85,"text":"好沒有的話那現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc817fe378c1f7a48eda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a65ada283277b8f26e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"15:32:44 - 15:49:07","影片長度":"00:16:23","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":983,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:49:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T15:32:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":908,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（15時32分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家好！是不是有請審計長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：審計長你好，在諮詢之前，我對審計長還有審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定，跟審計長報告，本席現在是在立法院唯一一位具有會計師執照的委員，我過去在擔任會計師執行業務的時候，我也是常去企業做審計的工作，所以我非常知道做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦，有時候都要加班加到很晚，而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告，第一個就是要具備勇氣，那第二個也要讓民眾知道真相，所以我在這邊諮詢之前先給審計長跟審計部所有的官員一個高度的肯定，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，委員很專業，委員請多指導。"],["張委員智倫：好，那接下來我就要請教審計長，現在我們民眾相對關注一個相當大的議題，就是在4月1號也就是昨天我們的電價上漲，調整幅度達11%，不管是民生、工業都全面調漲，現在很多民眾擔心的點就是在電價調漲以後，未來物價會不會全面來調漲。","其實本席認為企業應該要獲利，不管開源跟節流，以一般企業的經營角度來講，面對成本上漲，產品售價的調整是因應的作法，不過我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業，當要調漲它的售價的時候應該要顧及民生的需求跟任務，要謹慎地來處理。請教審計長第一個問題，我剛剛提到了台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業，你認為哪一家企業虧損得最嚴重？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：112年有5家虧損，其中台電虧損了1,985億元，政府還彌補它500億，如果不彌補500億的話，它就虧了2,485億。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，審計長非常專業，這就是我今天要提的，台電的能源政策是否出了問題？本席跟審計長報告，台電公司的毛利率是負30%，它的淨利率是負到40%，它的負債比高達98%，以一家企業而言，它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題。也要跟審計長報告，現在臺灣的能源政策，想不到在臺灣，現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候，我們的火力發電居然占超過80%。過去政府對台電的補助，基本上已經達到4,500億，在蔡英文政府執政下，包含這次4月1號，台電連續調整了3次電費，調整幅度35%，所以要請問審計長，台電是不是有繼續經營假設，會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它是一個國營事業，政府會負最後的責任，因為我們也不容台電有任何閃失或者任何狀況，因為它影響到我們國家很重大，所以這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質，加強開源節流，慢慢把整個體質改善。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。就本席瞭解，111年的確當時國際燃油價格是有些上漲，可是就像剛剛本席跟您報告的，在112年、113年，其實國際燃料的價格有下跌的趨勢，所以本席希望在你們明（112）年的審計報告，千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌，造成台電的虧損。本席大膽建議，是不是可以寫，因為政府錯誤的能源政策，因為剛剛本席有跟你報告，80%變成火力發電，以及本席建議審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約，是否有些採購綠電的問題？是否已經有不合時宜的部分？就像去年本席一直在跟很多委員、民眾講，從過去到現在，民眾一直有一個想法，而且這也是事實，就是台電賺飽，綠電虧損，全民漲電價。請問審計長，剛剛我講的，本席有跟你建議，是不是在我們明年度的審計報告裡面可以加註政府錯誤的能源政策，造成台電虧損，以及政府應該協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：向委員報告，委員當過會計師，我們審計寫出去的審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現，當然再生能源這個部分的售價是比買的成本低，但是它的所有成本，除了核能和水力以外都高於售價，成本都高於售價，所以如果照這樣下去，它的經營會相當的困難。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。您剛剛有提出重點，就是說不論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少，或是政府補助台電的金額4,500億這麼高，還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損，所以這是一個相當大的問題，因此本席在這邊也希望未來我們要好好來檢討台電，尤其剛剛本席有跟你報告綠電的問題。","最近本席也發現一件事情，希望審計長可以一起來協助。現在聽說私人的綠電公司有考慮直接賣電給一些大型的企業，讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電，本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源，所以本席在這邊建議，是不是未來這些私人企業、這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候，台電應該要用收取電網使用費，就是併網費用的概念，讓台電的虧損可以有些彌補。審計長知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我有看到這樣一個報導，當然你經過台電的電網，因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本，既然使用到這裡，當然使用者付費，一樣地，民間的發電能夠賣給大企業，它就可以少收購，這也是一種解決的方式，政府賣綠電是不是也可以考慮民間這種綠電的作法，所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流，或者強化經營體質。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。就是希望明年的審計報告不要看到審計部寫國際燃油價格下跌造成台電虧損，這邊還是要拜託審計長幫忙。","我在看台電資產負債表的時候，我看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2,800億，是當時核四的興建費用，請教審計長，對你來講這個核四的2,800億資產，到底是資產還是負債？因為就本席瞭解，一個資產這麼龐大2,800億，可是基本上核四的建造已經廢掉了，而且它已經沒有辦法再幫臺灣產生出更多的電力，未來還需要非常龐大的金額去做後續除役的動作，現在帳列2,800億的資產是否應該要做一個價值減損部分的討論？以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重？現在不做台電核四廠資產減損的原因為何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們也有提出和委員剛剛所講一樣的審計意見，經濟部給我們的答復是他們還在做整個核四資產怎麼樣再應用的評估，等評估定案了以後，我們會要求它依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。本席這邊要提醒審計長，根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園，照蔡英文政府的講法，應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零，所以這點我是要跟您報告的。我也跟審計長報告，當時經濟部說有一個資產管理維護計畫，從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說它要來評估，已經評估了8年，都沒有結論。所以本席在這邊也要大膽建議審計長，已經拖了8年，已經夠久了！審計長、審計部你們有權力把這個事情交給監察院做個審議，是否這樣子讓臺灣人民會有個錯誤的想法，就是台電有2,800億這麼大的資產？但其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的，所以這邊要拜託審計長幫忙。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們可以評估考慮。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分，這個真的要拜託審計長協助，不然台電的負債以及相關資產的減損，如果不讓國人知道它真正的情況，未來等到一次直接認列的時候，會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔。","第二個我想要請教審計長的是，國人所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題，請教審計長，就您的看法，現在我們全臺灣整體中央的負債是不是接近5兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們111年度的決算出來是將近5兆6千9百多億。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。金額已經到了五兆多，以臺灣2,300萬人來算，每一個人的平均負債大概是25萬左右，這邊要跟審計長報告，現在我們國人，以及最近我們立法院正在討論的，就是有關於特別預算的問題，我覺得審計部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢，因為審計部在它的決算報告也有寫說，107年、108年及111年，我們政府的歲出、歲入是為賸餘的，其他年度皆為短絀。顧名思義，政府的錢都不夠用，尤其112年的短絀高達6,190億，主要就是因為政府長年以制定特別條例的方式編列特別預算，歲出規模龐大，沒有籌措歲入財源，以及多仰賴債務支應。依審計長的表現，本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來，就是蔡英文政府在執政這八年，運用非常多特別預算，而且特別預算可以規避認列臺灣政府的債務上限。本席有一個資料，顯示蔡英文政府編特別預算的時候，到底讓臺灣社會增加多少負債，審計長有資料嗎？我收到的資料好像……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果到111年，因為我們是這樣，剛剛講的是5兆6,977億，減掉他105年接任的時候，實際債務是五千三百多，在111年增加了4,200億。"],["張委員智倫：可是跟審計長報告，我收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多，沒關係，會後我再跟審計長請教一下。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我講的是我們現在的實際債務餘額。"],["張委員智倫：意思是特別預算的部分有去償還嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果舉借會滾進實際債務餘額裡面。"],["張委員智倫：好，接下來還是國人比較擔心的政府負債，因為你在審計報告中有特別提出，其實政府有一些金額沒有列在我們國家的負債當中，就是屬於俗稱的潛藏負債，主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債，以及軍公教人員退休金的負債，裡面的金額高達將近20億，全臺灣2,300萬的國人，本席算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬，所以每個人的負債可能平均會增加到100萬，這是全臺灣人民想要瞭解的。當然，本席知道依照國際的一些編制準則，這不需要列在一般的政府預算裡面，可是我看審計長那麼認真，每年在審計報告中重複提到這些潛藏負債的問題。尤其勞保基金的負債將近13到15兆，這個部分我請教審計長，你有什麼方法解決嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，因為透明在審計的立場是很重要的，所以我們會把它提出來。勞保這一塊，我們也希望能夠開源節流，儘量促進投資效益及各方面來慢慢解決處理。但是政府也有對這部分予以撥補，從109年到現在，看起來已經撥補兩千六百多億來緩解它的差短。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後還是要拜託審計長，因為撥補金額小於負債累積的數字，所以到最後還是會造成整個負債一直往上爬，所以這個問題到目前還是沒有解決。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：勞保是一個很大的問題……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝張委員智倫的諮詢，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","報告院會，中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告」等案之諮詢，均已詢答完畢。作以下之決定：","一、「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」及「中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30日）」等案，交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查。","二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面諮詢函送審計部，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。","三、已提出之書面諮詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","繼續處理復議案，請議事人員宣讀第一案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"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謝謝沈機長就本席了解111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢"},{"start":261.594,"end":280.827,"text":"所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及"},{"start":284.127,"end":308.415,"text":"我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價"},{"start":313.897,"end":329.686,"text":"請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約"},{"start":331.451,"end":358.009,"text":"向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師我們審計就出去審核意見是要看看我們的審計發現那當然啦,能源這一個再生能源這一個部分售價是比那個成本買的成本是低了但是他的所有的成本除了"},{"start":359.242,"end":370.396,"text":"合能和水利以外成本都高於售價所以它是如果這樣下去它的經營會比較相當的困難"},{"start":374.158,"end":402.398,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助"},{"start":403.739,"end":429.303,"text":"現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電那本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取"},{"start":433.644,"end":461.216,"text":"電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補沈議長知道這件事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他"},{"start":462.898,"end":489.632,"text":"民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制"},{"start":492.056,"end":512.265,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億"},{"start":519.208,"end":538.647,"text":"的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席了解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作"},{"start":540.569,"end":549.055,"text":"那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們"},{"start":561.516,"end":584.328,"text":"漢委員我們也有提出這樣的一個漢委員剛所講的提出這樣的損失意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價"},{"start":585.683,"end":602.704,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告"},{"start":604.601,"end":632.534,"text":"經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子"},{"start":634.616,"end":647.173,"text":"讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝"},{"start":651.245,"end":673.955,"text":"好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電以及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題"},{"start":675.135,"end":703.331,"text":"請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右"},{"start":704.071,"end":732.024,"text":"那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入視為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說"},{"start":733.373,"end":752.042,"text":"政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入財源以及多仰賴債務之應。"},{"start":754.656,"end":781.573,"text":"所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你就是本席認為你有把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債"},{"start":787.545,"end":810.64,"text":"能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀展報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多"},{"start":811.727,"end":838.561,"text":"所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集建會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是"},{"start":840.885,"end":859.094,"text":"沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以"},{"start":861.115,"end":890.575,"text":"就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到"},{"start":891.556,"end":892.757,"text":"有什麼方法來解決?"},{"start":909.637,"end":923.443,"text":"這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠"},{"start":960.397,"end":960.417,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":971.954,"end":973.557,"text":"謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審"}]}},{"id":"150850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc4582c4ae06e5b025da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a657a6ec89d01bdfc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"15:17:00 - 15:32:39","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":939,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:32:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T15:17:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（15時17分）謝謝主席，有請審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：審計長好，辛苦了。就如今天的審計報告所提到，我們審計部的主要職責就是督促政府進行良善治理，實現國家永續的發展，所以審計部對一些民生等重大議題都納入了主要的查核要點之內，可是本席發現對於族群的議題，審計部是比較少在碰觸的，比如有關新住民的議題。本席也有發現有關於新住民發展基金，移民署裡面有一個新住民發展基金，已經連續二年，連續二年出現短絀的狀況，而且是連續二年都必須移用以前的資金餘額來做支應，這部分可能審計部應該要特別來留意。當然，本席很能夠理解為什麼會出現短絀的現象，譬如說像基金的使用是更趨多元化，又譬如說新住民跟新住民二代的培力也好，或是特殊境遇的補助，甚至新住民子女的獎助學金等等。對於這個新住民發展基金的預算規模是不是要增加或者是財源要如何增加，我想審計部可能跟相關單位要有一個建議，譬如說像我們的長照基金，報告裡面有提到是來自於房地合一稅、遺贈稅或是菸捐、菸稅等等，可是新住民發展基金的財源是屬於公務預算，所以我們在想它的財源是不是不夠多元，對於這個部分，審計部在做查核的時候可能需要去做瞭解，關於這個部分，審計長這邊有沒有怎麼樣的建議嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原住民啊？新住民……"],["羅委員美玲：新住民！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：新住民、新住民，對不起。"],["羅委員美玲：我不曉得審計部對這個部分有沒有瞭解？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：新住民相對上也算是弱勢，新住民基金其實要的也不多，我們有2兆、快3兆的財源，它只是要幾億，我的立場是希望行政院或者相關編列預算的部門多給他們充分、充足的資源，來保障這些弱勢的新住民。"],["羅委員美玲：我很肯定審計長的回答，我非常肯定，因為現在的情況，尤其連續二年都已經有短絀的現象，所以我希望行政院也能聽到審計長的這個回應，這是非常友善的回應，就是有關於這個預算規模的部分可以來增加。再來，我們有看到的就是，雖然說我們新住民發展基金的預算有短絀的現象，可是我們發現其實它有部分業務的執行率不是那麼的好，是不佳的，譬如剛才這個報告裡面有提到的，我們對於少子女化對策的計畫，截至112年底，行政院其實已經投入了3,688億的經費，包含了幼兒的托育，可是我們發現在新住民發展基金裡面，辦理新住民家庭成長及子女托育多元文化計畫的執行率在112年度只有64.34%，所以這個部分可能也是審計部應該要去瞭解的。因為新住民每一年有將近2萬人來到臺灣這個大家庭，我想托育的需求絕對是有的，可是我們發現這個部分的執行率比我們想像中的還要低很多，所以我在想這個部分審計部是不是也應該要在查核的時候發現問題，為什麼這個部分的執行率比我們想像中的還要低很多？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會再督促內政部對這個方面來做加強，因為對於新住民這個部分，我們要給他們一個友善的環境，我們會來努力。"],["羅委員美玲：是，謝謝今天審計長很快速的肯定跟支持，所以我在想說，新住民，尤其是新住民來到臺灣如果含第二代的話，其實已經超過百萬人了，我想他們的境遇也好，福利也好，都是我們中央政府必須要來重視的。我也不希望因為他們可能是屬於比較少數的族群，中央對這部分就會比較忽略，尤其是審計部，因為我從你們的報告裡面比較少看到有關於新住民的議題，當然可能它是屬於所有民生議題裡面的其中一部分，並沒有特別拿出來做審核，可是我們覺得其實這很重要，都很重要，尤其現在新住民二代進入到大專院校就讀，目前的學生已高達9萬人，如果這些孩子能夠在國家好好的培育之下，都是國家未來很重要的助力，尤其是新住民二代，我也希望在新住民發展基金這個部分，如果我們真的能夠增加預算規模的話，未來這個部分對於孩子的就學也好，就業也好，我覺得都有很大的幫助，尤其是獎助學金的補助方面，所以我真的很謝謝審計長今天做出友善的回應。","再來，我們發現他們在公共托育這部分的執行率不是很佳的情況下還發現另外一個問題，那就是新住民的公共托育其實還有一些比較特殊的需求，我們有很多新住民媽媽，其實在語言方面可能是會比較有問題的，可能對中文比較不熟悉，他們需要的幼兒保母可能在語言方面要有些特殊的要求。結果我們在盤點全國22個縣市後發現，對新住民公共托育的部分並不是那麼的友善，這可能也是我們政府需要去加油、督促的部分，譬如說六都，六都是新住民人口數最多的地方，舉個例子來講，像新北市是全國新住民人數最多的縣市，新北市可收托一般幼兒的保母人數有2,819人，當然新住民的小孩也可以送到一般保母那邊去做托育，可是我剛剛也有提到，就是新住民媽媽可能在語言方面有所要求，他們可能要的就是這個保母必須要有新住民的背景，合格的保母，譬如我們以新北市來講好了，有2,819位可收托一般幼兒之保母，可是可收托新住民幼兒的保母只有4位，臺北市也是一樣，有2,317位可收托一般幼兒的保母人數，可是卻只有3位可收托新住民幼兒之保母，比例是非常非常的低。所以我們說政府在托育部分投入了很多的經費，可是在新住民幼兒保母這部分，我們發現是不太友善的，這個不友善來自於哪裡？可能我們並沒有很積極的培育新住民去考取合格的保母執照等等，所以衍生像六都可收托新住民幼兒的保母人數只有個位數，甚至有些縣市像新竹縣、苗栗縣、南投縣、雲林、嘉義、臺東、花蓮、澎湖、基隆市、嘉義市、連江縣、金門縣是掛零的，如果新住民媽媽想要找一個懂得自己國家語言的合格保母，這些縣市一個都沒有，一個都沒有！所以我想在托育的環境方面，對新住民來講比較不友善，關於這部分，我也希望審計部能夠重視，跟相關的單位來討論，這部分我們怎麼來提升？審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：從委員質詢的這些資料來看，我們好像忽略了新住民這一塊的照顧，所以剛剛我有講……"],["羅委員美玲：要再加強，審計長，我必須這樣說，如果說完全都忽略，說實在的，良心上我也不能這麼說，其實我們有很多有益於新住民的政策，可是某些部分確確實實是忽略了，像托育這個部分就是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以剛剛委員講的，我們把新住民發展基金加大，再來就把這些，像這一種的，因為各縣市、各縣市都零星的，就統一由內政部的主責單位統一來做，我們是希望幫忙把委員發現的這些問題，我們一塊一塊地把它補上，就是說把忽略掉的部分補上，我們會請內政部的相關單位對這一方面來加強。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，很謝謝審計長。另外還有時間，我還要再提另外一個是跟教育有關的。教育部在109年12月7號訂定發布「新住民就讀大學辦法」，主要是要讓我們的新住民有更友善多元的升學管道，其實立意是非常良善的，可是這個辦法施行到現在已經有3年了，整個狀況可以說是慘不忍睹，這部分可能我之後還是得要跟教育部來做探討。","審計長，您可以看一下，這個「新住民就讀大學辦法」實施後連續兩年的錄取人數有多低呢？我們先看111學年度，111學年度的四年制日間學士班，全國所有大專院校開出來的招生名額有1,900人，結果報名的有多少人呢？25人。錄取多少人呢？6人。註冊人數呢？有3人。四年制的進修學士班招生名額是346人，報名人數2人，錄取人數是1人。再來還有碩士班、博士班就更不用說了，那個成績真的……招生的人數甚至還掛零。112年更慘，112年四年制日間學士班招生人數增加到1,910人，可是報名人數只有3人，錄取人數3人，註冊3人。","好像諸如此類的，你說政府有沒有做？有，都有做，有訂定了這些政策，可是執行率真的是非常、非常的差，到底問題出在哪裡呢？其實我們有發現，我們發現如果去問教育部，教育部會說有啊，我們都有公告在大學的網站，公告全部都有啊，但問題是新住民就不知道有哪些學校，他們根本不知道臺灣有哪些學校，就算他想要升學，想要進修，他也不知道哪些學校有哪些科系，所以表示這些資訊的傳遞管道出了問題了。就是教育部擬定了相關辦法，大學端各大專院校確確實實有去做了，可是這些資訊如何下放到基層的新住民，好像中間的管道就斷掉了。如果本席沒有在這裡提的話，搞不好我們審計長還不瞭解目前這種狀況。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我不瞭解，謝謝委員提出這個問題，關於資訊不對稱或者是造成整個族群落差，我們的想法也是和委員一樣，應該就直接看看哪些新住民的小孩已經要就讀大學的，就直接告訴他，讓他得到第一手的資訊。"],["羅委員美玲：審計長您誤會了！我講的是新住民，不是新住民二代。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是新住民啦！"],["羅委員美玲：是新住民。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["羅委員美玲：其實臺灣的政府很有心想要提升新住民的教育程度或者是升學的管道，所以我們是有比照僑外生外掛2%的方式讓新住民去就學，而且是免於考試，就是在不用學測的情況之下他可以去報考，可是問題是新住民並不知道有這些就學的管道，並不知道有這些就學的資訊，我覺得非常的可惜，不管所有的大學、大專院校開了多少的這個科系，新住民就是不知道。去年我在全國各地辦了十幾場將近20場的新住民座談，我們每次就問：你們知不知道學校有哪些科系可以去就讀嗎？他們幾乎是百分之百告訴我：我們不知道。我們現在的問題就是在上面做上面的、中央做中央的，可是基層完全感受不到，也接受不到這個訊息，這才是問題所在。","本席為什麼說新住民這種族群的問題審計部可能比較少去碰觸到，可能我們講的都是一些比較大的議題、一些民生的議題，可是我們發現新住民的議題也很重要啊！他們來到臺灣，其實很希望在臺灣落地生根，適應臺灣的生活，包含能夠在這裡順利就學、就業，可是不管上面做了多少，很多新住民都無感，無感來自於哪裡？因為他們不知道要這個資訊從哪裡來的到，他們也不知道原來我可以到大學去念書，原來某某大學有我想要念的科系，關於這些資訊要怎麼樣下放給新住民，我想這可能就是審計部要跟教育部來做一個探討。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：關於這個部分，要解決這個應該不是太難的問題，教育部可以把各大學的資訊蒐集好以後直接告訴新住民的家庭。"],["羅委員美玲：審計部來督促一下好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會來做這件事情。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員美玲的諮詢，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第15號張委員智倫諮詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政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問題是新住民並不知道有這些就學的管道並不知道有這些就學的資訊覺得非常的可惜不管你所有的大學大專院校開了多少的這個科系"},{"start":830.228,"end":831.43,"text":"新住民就是不知道"},{"start":846.131,"end":858.241,"text":"幾乎是百分之百告訴我說我們不知道我們現在的問題就是說中央做上面做上面中央做中央的可是基層完全感受不到也接受不到這個訊息這才是問題所在"},{"start":862.544,"end":886.883,"text":"這才是問題所在所以本期如果說新住民為什麼我說族群的問題審計部可能比較少去碰觸到可能我們都是一些比較大的議題一些民生的議題可是我們發現說新住民的議題也很重要啊來到台灣其實很希望在台灣落地生根適應台灣的這個生活那包含能夠在這裡順利就學就業可是不管上面做了多少"},{"start":887.623,"end":910.629,"text":"可是很多新住民都無感無感來自於哪裡不知道這個資訊是從哪裡來的他們也不知道說原來我可以到大學去念書原來某某大學有這個我所向我想要去念的科系可是這些資訊怎麼要下放給新住民我想這可能就是我們審計部要跟教育部來做一個探討的是咧"},{"start":911.943,"end":920.971,"text":"這一個部分委員是這樣我們應該解決這個不是太難的問題教育部的夠大誰可以把它收集好"}]}},{"id":"150849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcc63d6173a19051a9da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6bf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"15:01:19 - 15:16:54","影片長度":"00:15:35","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":935,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:16:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T15:01:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（15時1分）謝謝主席，我請審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長辛苦了。審計長，請教一下，我們今天主要是針對前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告，事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我也不曉得為什麼我們的諮詢會排在這麼後面，我還以為會有最新的審計報告。去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波，我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力，尤其前瞻計畫，在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府補助款有嚴重的落差，比如說那時候臺北市才184億，但是高雄有一千兩百多億，那時曾經有這個話題，我知道其實你們壓力非常大，所以我想請教審計長，去年這樣的壓力會不會影響審計部未來對行政院，不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的尺度和標準，會不會？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會，因為這是我們的職責，尤其透明還有課責是我們審計要執行的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們會盡到我們的職責，完全沒有受到影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：去年我把這本書幾乎都翻過一遍，事實上我還蠻佩服審計部同仁的努力，所以我希望審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的功能跟責任。另外我要請教，今天我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵高達3,700億，請問一下，這個金額審計部核定了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：112年的部分，行政院還在辦決算，他們4月底會送到監察院，監察院會交給審計部來做審核。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以還沒有辦核定嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們到7月底才會審定出來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，可是我告訴審計長，現在行政院、經濟部其實就已經偷跑，為什麼偷跑呢？因為昨天4月1號開始漲電價，他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢，所以之前已經宣布撥補1,000億，但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定，因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵進行核定，可是行政院先把這1,000億撥補給台電，這個部分當然是屬於今年度的，不是在我們今天諮詢的111年度，可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情，不能便宜行事，為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅，然後確定稅收超徵的撥補，所以事實上是違反相關規定，我在這邊直接先跟審計長做這樣的說明。","另外，我想請問審計長，你們現在核定的是前瞻基礎建設第3期，我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力，如果以我們現在地方財政的1期、2期、3期來看，我們當時就在講，因為前瞻8,800億，事實上，我們的地方政府要負擔一半，所以對地方政府的財政來講，是一個非常大的負擔，果不其然，今天你們的審計報告裡面，第1期我們地方政府自籌經費的比例是89%；到了第2期，只剩下84%；第3期更是後繼無力，只剩下65%。而你們核定的報告裡面有特別提到，第1期到第3期，現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設所有編列的預算，只占中央核定自籌經費的33.33%，就是三分之一的意思，所以整個前瞻基礎建設執行到現在，當然這本裡面提到很多執行效率不彰的問題，或者有一些在執行的過程中，有沒有是養蚊子的，根本沒有達成你的計畫功能等等。因此，對於地方的財政，我們審計部看到相關報告後，是不是真的有感受到地方財政要補足前瞻基礎建設要求的自籌經費，事實上是已經有後繼無力的狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，那他們有任何的改善嗎？這個經費全部編下去啊！地方就要有配合款啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候，他們會注意到這件事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得，已經到3期了，現在才讓行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦，第一個，地方財政當然會希望最好中央多補一點錢給我，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不希望我自己自籌，這個壓力非常非常的重，而且你補助款就如同我講的，即去年我們討論了很多，我就不在這邊浪費時間，因為你們補助款也有大小眼啊！對不對？臺北市這麼少，然後高雄那麼多；我先不要講，因為我還在查，就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼、還在大小眼，對於中央，第一個，你不能不公平、不均；第二個，你不要拖累地方，讓地方的財政負擔過重，所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好，或者是公務預算，我覺得我們的審計部都要本於這樣的原則，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外有一個你們特別提到而我也覺得滿重要的，就是國防部，我們對美軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大，也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購，但是我們國防部很大方、臺灣很大方，對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付，這個我想審計長應該知道，可是問題來了，你現金支付之後，有一些合約會終止，比如說我用現金支付準備金，問題是合約終止，你就應該還給我，可是在你們審計部的報告裡面，到111年度，這還不含112年或者到現在，已經合約終止的，但是我們停滯在美國的準備金就高達新臺幣118億，照理說美方應該結案之後退還給臺灣，但是它沒有退還回來，未來我們還是要繼續去軍購，那這個問題怎麼解決呢？這118億我覺得要回來有它的難處，可是未來我們還是這樣，未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金，然後合約終止它還是不退給你，這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去。對此，你們有要求國防部，要求他們用擔保信用狀取代現金，因為你們其實查得滿清楚，你們去查了美國軍售相關的辦法裡面，它是可以接受用擔保信用狀，對不對？可是我們軍方沒有這樣做，就是傻傻的一直付現金，然後錢也要不回來。我想請問審計長，你們有沒有追蹤這部分？國防部說：好，我們就開始來研究。請問112年度他們有用嗎？今年度他們有用嗎？下一年度……我們幾乎每年都要跟美國買軍備，這些我們如果傻傻的一直付現金，以後還不曉得有多少idle在美國還要不回來！審計長，這部分非常非常細，我希望審計部能夠繼續盯緊軍方，督導國防部，不要再做冤大頭了！如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金，我們為什麼不做？其實在你們的報告裡……後來我才看到，狀況其實非常嚴重！你們在報告裡面提到，除了那118億之外，還有時間比較久遠的，也就是100年度之前的，都已經結匯給美方。但事實上這裡面美方有一些結餘款要還給我們，你知道高達多少錢沒有還給我們嗎？50億！剛剛講的118億加50億，光是在111年度之前就超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們！我們現在比較關切的是，軍購應該交給我們的武器，結果延宕，對不對？現在大家大部分都在關心這部分。由於大家很少去關心，所以我很高興、也很肯定審計部注意到這個問題。我們應該把錢要回來，卻沒有要回來！我剛剛講了，合約終止就應該把準備金還給我們，結果沒有還給我們的高達118億！還有，即便是已經結清的，當中卻還有一部分該還給我們的錢也沒有還給我們，可是軍方無力討錢！碰到美國就沒有能力討錢！所以第一，你們已經給國防部指引，說請用擔保信用狀，不要再用現金了；第二，滯存美方的結餘款50億，也應該要督促軍方討回來，可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，50億我們已經要回來了。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！至於信用……"],["王委員鴻薇：100年度以前的，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：都要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！118億這個，我們也要他趕快和美國談。至於委員剛剛講的擔保信用狀的部分，美方希望是用美國的，我們希望用兆豐的，所以這方面還在談。"],["王委員鴻薇：美方希望是用美國銀行……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：美國準備銀行的，我們希望用我們國內的信用狀，所以兩方還針對這方面做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個要盯他們，還要儘快，好不好？不要再傻傻用現金了，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：現金都要不回來！","另外有一個議題也請審計部能幫忙去盯。最近食安連環爆，所以大家都在檢討。我們一年編列食安預算大概將近100億，前瞻計畫編列食安的部分大概有400億，甚至超過400億。既然有這麼多的預算，為什麼還會食安連環爆？像興建國家級實驗大樓、邊境查驗快速通關管理系統、增加檢驗能量等，一大堆都要錢，錢也都給了。現在碰到食安，怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢？問題是，最近就發生了，我們要蓋食安大樓，要擴增檢驗量能，最近討論最多的是米酵菌酸，我們看到衛福部在剛開始時急得跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣，為什麼？因為他們沒有標準品！因為檢驗必須要有標準品！後來是彰化基督教醫院來救命，說他們有，並提供給衛福部。所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部比不上彰化基督教醫院？後來我們也發現有關於一些所謂的硬體建設，比如說它要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓，結果出現了執行率偏低的問題，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，它在第1期就編了，但到現在還沒有，進度只達到……不過現在也已經順利了，當時是因為幾次流標，現在的進度已經快20%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在20%？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在才20%？所以審計部……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為前幾次都是發包不出去啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以審計長，你會不會覺得這個要錢時急吼吼，然後等到執行的部分，編這二十多億要去蓋大樓，我就講嘛，食安的預算沒有人敢擋它，結果呢？現在呢？它的執行率又說什麼合約期程跨年度啦要保留，就是保留預算嘛，它跟你們申請保留預算繼續執行。這個部分到目前只有20%，審計長，你會不會覺得這麼重要的一環，在整個前瞻基礎建設裡面，食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎？那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是……是不是執行的程度……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個確實是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有沒有給他們一些建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這次執行確實是進度落後了，但是因為執行的事情啊，我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警它這個部分已經落後了。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，你們有提出來，希望他們能夠加緊腳步，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員鴻薇的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來請登記第14號羅委員美玲詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決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text":"可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我"},{"start":658.79,"end":682.098,"text":"軍方都無力去討錢捏它碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以"},{"start":683.103,"end":710.31,"text":"報告委員,那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎?這是一百年度以前的,對不對?都要回來了對,118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們造風這一方面所以這邊這個方面還在談"},{"start":711.53,"end":736.993,"text":"所以他美方希望是用美方的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報"},{"start":738.835,"end":751.07,"text":"那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保"},{"start":756.457,"end":779.369,"text":"包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對編輯查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了"},{"start":780.779,"end":801.73,"text":"我們要做實案大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品"},{"start":802.35,"end":827.011,"text":"因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓"},{"start":829.233,"end":854.163,"text":"結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是發發不出去"},{"start":855.305,"end":870.646,"text":"所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢"},{"start":871.187,"end":874.749,"text":"你會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎"},{"start":898.763,"end":918.952,"text":"那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是是不是執行的程度你們有沒有給他們一些建議這次執行是確實進度落後了但是因為執行的事情我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警他你這個部分落後了對你們有提出"},{"start":924.281,"end":927.987,"text":"好謝謝王委員宏威的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲"}]}},{"id":"150848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc39d7ff8423ea3c1bda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a64cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"14:46:00 - 15:01:10","影片長度":"00:15:10","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":910,"end_time":"2024-04-02T15:01:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T14:46:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（14時46分）主席好，請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長好。這一次我們看到審計部針對111年的中央政府總預算，還有紓困振興的特別決算，提出審核報告，我們讀了裡面審查的一些意見，有幾點我想要再跟審計長做一個討論跟請教。第一個點想跟審計長討論的是關於紓困振興計畫，其實在第一項的意見中，審查報告上面寫了一段，它寫說：「政府辦理各項紓困補貼措施，有助緩解受疫情影響之產業及個人衝擊，惟間有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符情事發生，衍生後續追繳行政作業成本，未來倘有辦理類此補貼措施需求，允宜完善相關政策及作業規劃，俾使政府施政更臻周妥。」我其實看了這一段以後就回想到那時候，包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候，大家就討論、規劃要做所謂的紓困金，這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候，其實大家一直講到有一類的對象，我不知道審計長還記不記得？就是那些賣玉蘭花，或者是在路口舉牌子的這些人，你說他是勞工嗎？他其實不是正式的勞工，但他確實是付出最底層的勞動力在工作的狀況，這些非典型勞動的民眾，其實當時大家一直在討論，我們到底能用什麼方式，可以把紓困金或他們需要的資源發放給他們？因為他確實是當時受到最大影響的，而且是社會最邊緣的，後來我們發現這個設計有重重的困難，因為在廣義的社會救助體系裡面，在制度上面，這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊，所以我們也不一定能夠用所謂的中低收入戶的部分涵蓋他們，因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋範圍裡面，所以後來討論很久。","公務員其實也提到一個問題，他們說有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法、會不會有溢領的這個狀況，尤其是溢領會面對審計部門的檢討，我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情，可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審計長討論？我其實覺得這個檢討本身是有值得討論的空間的，我們當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候，當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法，所以後來選擇用所謂急難救助的作法，這個急難救助的作法，其實就是以家戶為單位，審計長清楚嘛，可是用家戶為單位的時候，這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題，所以那時候跟行政院談了很久，最後討論必須用一個切結書，一個比較彈性的方式去處理這個問題，切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法，但是沒有辦法，我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚，可以對應到這群人的作法。","審計長，其實現在我看到你們的表4，審核報告中的表4裡面，我看到衛福部這一項，數據上面應追繳的有1億4,818萬元，目前已經追繳的大概只有四千多萬元，也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳，相比於其他部會的，其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高，有一些其實已經大部分都能夠追繳到，但是在衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到。","審計長，我很擔心喔！當你這份報告出來以後，我們未來假設要再設計相關制度的時候，其實公務員的心態又會保守，為什麼我說怕他們保守？當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生溢領的狀況，所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜，因為怕溢領，可是當他一設計複雜的時候，就會把很多人又排除在外了。審計長，你對這事情怎麼看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：行政院對發生疫情的時候是用從優、從速、從簡，非常好的一個原則，這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推，後面不容好像說有人會溢領，其實我們查到的，他的綜合所得不會有超過100萬以上的，因為勞動部是訂在50萬，屬於這一部分，我們請他再看看，因為這和我們的規定不符，所以這個是有這樣的情形。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，但我要跟你討論的事情是，其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目，它是用家戶去算，我舉個例子，可能有一個家庭，一個父親也許因為他工作的關係或因為個性的關係，其實被這個家庭給逐出去了，可能他的太太、小孩其實日子過得不錯，但這個爸爸卻因為被逐出家裡，所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難。像這種人，你要他回到家裡面，他回不去了，他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助，因為各種原因、家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了，可是我們需要幫助他啊！但是在這種狀況之下，我們因為用家戶來計算的時候，會看起來他是沒有問題的，這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點啦！","也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計缺漏的問題，所以我自己就覺得對於有可能、不一定那麼百分百精準的狀況，我們應該要容錯率高一點，不然我們層層設計，設計一個複雜的機制，設計的要切得很乾淨，儘量沒有容錯的機制的時候，像我剛才說的這個爸爸，他就會被踢出去了，他就會被視為沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人。可是在那個當下，他就是需要的人，他就是我們需要幫助的人，這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計過程裡面，當然我知道審計是一門很重要的專業，我沒有要去挑戰這件事，我也都很尊重，可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候，我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告這樣的結論，未來我們在機制設計的時候，又把它設計的繁複，又把它設計的排除性很高，怕錯誤、怕溢領的話，反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到，審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是，委員，這個很好。第一個，勞動部和我談，我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬標準是超過很多，這是公平的問題。但是委員剛剛講的，有產生急難的部分，我要勞動部也應該要怎麼樣去幫忙他，這個是我們有考慮。"],["洪委員申翰：可是我現在講的是衛福部啊！因為今天就是衛福部啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都是這樣的一個情況，再來，因為從優、從速、從簡是政府的政策，我們沒有追究任何一個公務人員、在做這件事的人，因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程，再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方，有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人，可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們，或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們，坦白說我們發現還不少，這是我們制度上面要去修正，包括法規上面、法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方。","我自己很希望，接下來也許像我們的審核報告裡面或審計的報告裡面，其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來，不只是呈現說是不是有溢領、追繳等等等。我自己看到的是，如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話，其實很可能公務員就會有一個比較保守的心態，儘量不要出錯、儘量不要犯錯，反而該幫助的人就會被漏掉了，這是我想跟審計部來做提醒的部分。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：甚至去年這個經驗，後來我們開了一個公聽會，公聽會上我們也援引了一些其他國家的經驗，比方說像英國的經驗。英國的經驗很清楚，它一開始的時候，我給你幫助，我願意並可以把門開大一點、寬鬆一點，我讓你都進來，可是你進來以後，我作法是要你盡一些責任，這個責任可能是要提供一些勞務，或者是要去就業，所以我開始幫你媒合就業。所以它把門開大了以後，它的作用是我透過這個機制或社會的救助，來引導你進入一個正軌，而不只是純粹的給你錢或給你幫忙而已。","所以在英國機制裡面，你看到的是他們一開始把門開的比較大、比較寬鬆、比較沒那麼嚴格，但它後續機制設計裡面有一個蠻強的導引性作用在那個地方，我覺得都很值得我們來參考。所以我自己是希望以後審計部在做相關審核的時候，我覺得可以把這些事情也思考進去，至少在我們公務部門、行政部門在看、在讀的時候，或去做check的時候，可以有一些想法上面的刺激，不然如果只是單純從表面來看，這是我們會憂心的事情。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，我們審計不會創造審核標準，我們的審核標準完全依照行政部門所訂出來的一個制度。剛剛委員這樣講，如果是這樣的制度，我們完全尊重這樣的制度。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但是我的意思是要提醒在寫審核報告的時候，我覺得不該只是流於表面上面的數字，這是第一點我想要跟審計長討論的。第二點，審計長，我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分，在紓困振興特別預算審核報告裡面意見的第七項，有一個是針對COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續辦的這件事情，我看到審計部其實有提一些意見。關於COVID染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務，其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出的一個建議，當時已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他留下蠻多的後遺症，也就是大家所謂的長新冠（long COVID）的狀況，而且他就會遇到不知道去看哪一科，因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科、可能包括身心科、可能包括胸腔科、可能包括復健科等，所以當時就希望有一個整合的門診，而這個整合門診也符合。","我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到，去年11月衛福部把長新冠的整合門診停止了，可是相關的數字，臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是超過一千萬，大概只有8,861名有long COVID的醫療照顧，可是只有大概三成2,669名有接受整合門診會診的服務。審計長，就這個議題來看，為什麼大概只有三成左右有接受整合服務？你覺得原因是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這一個部分，我們只是希望它不要停。"],["洪委員申翰：你希望他們不要停嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們是叫它不要停。"],["洪委員申翰：審計長，你們這看法跟我一樣，我們也希望往下再去討論，我自己覺得它之所以停，因為看起來只有三成，因此我們就很好奇，到底是你原本門診的量能不足？還是你宣傳不足？還是沒有這個需求？審計長你覺得？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們對民眾的健康也一直很關照……"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以整個剛剛委員在談的，包括前面所談的，依我們審計的立場是不遺漏任何人，尤其弱勢的，我們更加注意，所以這個部分，我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看，能夠幫忙這些人，所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見。"],["洪委員申翰：事實上，一直到現在都還有人在染疫，只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人，但現在還有人在染疫，其實現在染疫以後，還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生。如果你遇到長新冠的狀況，可能一樣有後遺症，但也不知道自己到底病因是什麼或哪裡造成你的問題，所以我非常非常同意，其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求。尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的報告裡面，它說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有long COVID，65歲以上是4個人裡面就有1個，所以我們是有這個需求的，我們也希望接下來審計部的報告可以以這個角度再次提醒衛福部，不要只是以經濟效益去計算或做這個判斷，其實我們當下還是有這個需求，不要不在關注COVID的期間、大家轉移了目標，11月就草草把這些整合門診給關掉，我們未來也會來追蹤，也很謝謝審計長在你們的報告裡面做了這方面的提醒。坦白說，當時我們提出這個政策建議，我也是在你們審核的報告裡面看到，居然在11月停了，可是看起來我們還是有需求，這部分我覺得我們可以跟審計部一起來努力。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會來追蹤整個衛福部對這方面的檢討情形，儘量的來滿足這些染疫民眾的需求。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝審計長。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員申翰的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。接下來請登記第13位王委員鴻薇詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.85284375,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.894718750000001,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.67346875,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.49971875,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.38096875,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.274718750000005,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.26409375,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.33534375,"end":51.617843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.19159375,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":57.237218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.82784375000001,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.52784375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.30409375000001,"end":62.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.60659375,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.32221875,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.14034375,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.88659375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.45596875000001,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.58909375,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.56659375000001,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.39721875000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.22159375,"end":131.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.65159375000002,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.18284375000002,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.95409375,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.38409375,"end":147.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.68721875,"end":152.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.10409375,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":164.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.79846875,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.40971875000002,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.31159375000001,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.43721875,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":186.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.24659375000002,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.44721875000002,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.63284375,"end":199.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.01159375,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.92221875,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.21284375000002,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.18284375000002,"end":219.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.40596875000003,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.19471875000002,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.39284375000003,"end":223.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.54846875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.51034375,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.01596875,"end":234.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":247.60409375},{"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請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢"},{"start":18.257,"end":36.521,"text":"王委員好呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼"},{"start":39.232,"end":54.916,"text":"那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個政府辦理各項紓困"},{"start":55.749,"end":79.254,"text":"補貼措施有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延"},{"start":80.536,"end":87.169,"text":"我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論"},{"start":88.493,"end":111.972,"text":"那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花或者是在路口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況"},{"start":113.473,"end":141.993,"text":"那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊"},{"start":143.464,"end":151.777,"text":"所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久"},{"start":156.272,"end":175.946,"text":"這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的"},{"start":181.479,"end":197.659,"text":"我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂急難救助的做法那這個急難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛"},{"start":198.53,"end":223.437,"text":"用加匯的單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多制度不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個"},{"start":227.09,"end":255.735,"text":"這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到"},{"start":257.625,"end":285.909,"text":"那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看"},{"start":287.54,"end":306.03,"text":"行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會很好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的"},{"start":306.71,"end":327.217,"text":"查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是"},{"start":329.488,"end":356.691,"text":"其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他一個個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難"},{"start":358.413,"end":375.468,"text":"像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用加護來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的"},{"start":377.347,"end":396.382,"text":"這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定100%精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨"},{"start":400.678,"end":407.712,"text":"盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為"},{"start":409.52,"end":432.562,"text":"你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候"},{"start":434.444,"end":461.707,"text":"未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到沈議長是委員這個很好大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我說超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題"},{"start":462.762,"end":486.974,"text":"但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何"},{"start":488.094,"end":512.647,"text":"一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少"},{"start":514.048,"end":538.163,"text":"這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯"},{"start":538.863,"end":539.183,"text":"是否是否是否"},{"start":557.108,"end":572.275,"text":"英國人經驗很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要"},{"start":573.171,"end":574.412,"text":"所以在英國機制裡面你看到事情是說"},{"start":589.402,"end":613.329,"text":"他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在"},{"start":613.969,"end":621.379,"text":"去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情"},{"start":622.25,"end":643.647,"text":"報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得"},{"start":644.841,"end":670.568,"text":"不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見"},{"start":671.687,"end":691.59,"text":"那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況"},{"start":692.771,"end":711.747,"text":"而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到"},{"start":713.228,"end":731.582,"text":"去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字臺灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右"},{"start":741.633,"end":768.358,"text":"有接受折扣?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?"},{"start":770.029,"end":796.931,"text":"因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些"},{"start":798.091,"end":814.724,"text":"所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生"},{"start":816.405,"end":836.031,"text":"那如果你遇到長新冠的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID"},{"start":837.352,"end":853.594,"text":"65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以再以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求"},{"start":854.996,"end":880.812,"text":"這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整給關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒那不然我也坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們整合的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求"},{"start":881.352,"end":898.719,"text":"這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個啊衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝審議長謝謝好謝謝侯委員深汗的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位"}]}},{"id":"150847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc21f7c3537a1ddbd3da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a61e0ef36d357a05ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:30:29 - 14:45:53","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":924,"end_time":"2024-04-02T14:45:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T14:30:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時30分）主席，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：審計長好。首先，我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡，讓政府敗壞財政紀律現形，這一點我是肯定審計部的報告，能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的漏洞，也好讓立法院來協助補強，所以先謝謝審計長跟審計部。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是我們的職責，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：好。審計長，你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6,997億元，這個數字換算下來，國人每人平均背負國債25萬，蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元，多項執行期間都是到下任政府。請問審計長，這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：整個預算的制度是這樣，如果通過了這個預算，會保留繼續延下去，是這樣的一個情境。"],["羅委員智強：是。當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫，說他任內只增加了四千多億債務，但本席認為這只是話術而已，為什麼呢？因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的，因為特別預算分年編列，加上稅收成長，債務還本提高，使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看，但是只要稅收不如預期，債務就會失控。而且將鉅額且未來可能會有的計畫預算全數編列進特別預算，並且對外宣稱年年賸餘財政很健康，這個我認為其實就是欺騙人民，而且無視財政紀律。","我看過109年度監察院的報告曾指出，我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象，中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計畫特別預算，造成年度（109）總預算財政收支平衡之假象。想請教審計長，你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎？特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要持審慎的態度。"],["羅委員智強：對，像我們現在特別預算照監察院之前的報告，已經有常態化的現象，這常態化的現象對我們財政紀律的影響是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個要看有沒有財源，這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要，因為一個建設會創造國家的一些效能、效益，所以我是比較希望計畫要考慮、評估得比較慎重一點。"],["羅委員智強：我跟審計長說明一下，其實也不只是償債的問題，事實上特別預算對行政機關而言也是便宜行事，當然它可能也是比較方便，所以便宜行事，也比較容易逃避監督。換言之，特別預算不是不可以，但是如果浮濫編列、常態化地去編列的話，當然會對財政紀律造成衝擊，所以這一點我想也是要提醒一下行政部門，不要把特別預算好像當作自己非常方便使用的私房錢的概念。而立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督，其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口上、能夠透明化，讓全民檢驗預算的合理性，這點我不知道審計長您認同嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我認同。"],["羅委員智強：好。蔡總統說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多、更快、更貼近民眾的需求，所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好，但是依照審計部的決算報告，前瞻第3期特別預算的分支計畫有超過六成位於特別預算執行期間完成，其中軌道建設部分的第3期特別預算實現率只有65.1%、其中有10項計畫甚至沒有實現數，主要是因為沒有經過行政院核定。那我想請教審計長是否有印象這10項所謂沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：非常抱歉，我手上沒有這個資料，但是我們的同仁整體有這些資料，因為大部分像是嘉義市的高架評估等，這些各方面沒有實現數，因為軌道建設涉及的很多，要經過計畫評估、可行性評估等各方面，還有細部的評估都是要很慎重。"],["羅委員智強：好，我跟審計長補充，其中兩項我也特別關切，臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化的這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無實現數的計畫，藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫，直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院核定綜合計畫、可行性研究，實際上我覺得審計部的報告很公允，算是客觀還原實際的情況。但是你也知道之前臺中方面，很多人在吵到底是誰在卡臺中的捷運，我覺得這上面很清楚啊！10項的未實現數有兩項是臺中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸，行政院根本在這個部分實際上沒有積極作為，所以誰卡地方建設？我倒覺得從審計部的報告當中可以看得很清楚。","接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分，依照審計部報告，截至111年底中央主管機關核定計畫總經費總共是9,900億元左右，核定的補助總數是5,358億4,202萬元，請問審計長知道哪個縣市獲得的補助是最多？六都裡面誰是最少的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：核定的補助是高雄市最多，有一千兩百多億；實際上撥補的是新北市比較多；六都中臺中是少的，但是剛剛委員有講，這兩個計畫核定下去，臺中已經躍升核定補助的九百多億。"],["羅委員智強：我看到的部分，我講的是六都，六都目前臺北市是最少，臺北市是184億；高雄獲得中央核定是1,265億、自籌是810億元，占總經費的39%。臺北市今天不僅只有高雄市的尾數而已！事實上在六都排名最後、全國排名第九，而且80%的經費都要自籌。所以這就是外界疑惑為什麼中央對地方的補助五千三百多億，核定高雄就1,265億，將近四分之一，這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問，難道今天是看顏色來撥補嗎？","所以我也希望今天透過審計部的報告給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊啦！就是也要顧及各個縣市的建設需求，當然不是說不能夠撥補、不能夠核定補助，可是你的分配如此懸殊，單一縣市就占掉將近四分之一，然後其他縣市，比如臺中也只有兩百多億啊，然後臺北市是184億，這樣一個數字出來的時候，當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚此薄彼的感覺嘛，我不知道審計長覺得呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為建設有前有後啦，臺北市的捷運是做在比較前面，但是高雄正在興建，而臺中的部分都在規劃中或者送核定中，所以會產生有差別的情況，但是一般都希望按照計畫的情形來核定補助。"],["羅委員智強：審計部報告當中也有提到前瞻計畫地方政府自籌是4,542億，占總經費的45.88%，地方已經編列的預算只有1,514億，只占中央核定自籌經費的33%，尚有鉅額的經費要於以後的年度繼續籌編，各縣市在既定有限的預算資源之下，為了籌編分擔款，將排擠其他計畫財源之籌措。我這是稍微回憶一下剛剛審計長你講的，投入的經費核定是一回事，實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分，我剛才前面講了，高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配，他自籌的比例比較低，但是臺北市的自籌，我看到數字就是將近八成，所以我講的不只是絕對的數字，也包括所謂自籌的分配，所以兩相比較起來，當然我必須講，即便今天很多人說哪些縣市可能有發展比較早、比較快或他財源比較充裕的情形，可是我剛剛也講了，光臺中來講就不是這一回事，你可以講臺北跟高雄有一個落差，但臺中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差，當然剛剛審計長講到那是因為行政院核定的狀況，這就是問題之所在嘛，所以才會有人質疑說，今天搞了半天，你卡住臺中的建設，你在行政院的部分，你核定並不積極、你沒有積極地幫助臺中市，連帶就影響到剛剛審計長講的前瞻經費的撥補或是補助的核定，也產生連動的影響，這些不是都是相關的嗎？我不知道審計長怎麼看呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個會產生一些相關。"],["羅委員智強：好，我想再請教前瞻建設中八大建設之一的食品安全，總共編列30億元的預算，可是對照今天食安事件頻傳，我是不太清楚我們食安的預算到底是花在什麼地方，有沒有發揮它實際的功效？我舉幾個具體的數字給審計長參考，我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過、請教他兩個問題，其實坦白講我是有點失望，因為那時候他說蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現，當時他舉出的數字只有1個，他說因為陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下，我們的系統性食安問題只有2件，蔡英文政府只有2件，所以食安做得真的是非常的棒，結果呢？他講完之後，審計長知道發生什麼事情嗎？就蘇丹紅。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：蘇丹紅事件。"],["羅委員智強：對，是他在報告食安的時候，我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴，他才誇口自己系統性食安問題最少，結果講的當下蘇丹紅就爆發，不到幾天我問衛福部部長，薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安問題，第二個也很離譜，我覺得我們陳建仁院長真的是個烏鴉嘴，你知道嗎？為什麼？因為我就問他我不太理解我們院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒，馬政府做得很差勁，結果呢？我看到食品中毒的人數，蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政這八年竟然每年多400人，八年算下來都快要多三千多人啦！","我想請教我們院長，我看到食品中毒人數暴增，他怎麼會覺得他的食安做得比較好呢？審計長你知道陳建仁院長怎麼回答我，你知道嗎？你不知道啦！你一定不知道啦！他說食品中毒不是食安問題，他還不只講一次，我在質詢時，他一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題，結果我後來再去質詢薛部長，我就不服氣啊！我說食品中毒怎麼會不是食安問題？吃到肚子裡可能使健康受損，甚至可能奪取人命，怎麼不是食安問題？薛部長就很誠實啊！直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題，我一個月前質疑我們政府食品中毒的管制做不好，結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題，請問最近發生什麼事情？審計長，發生什麼事情？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有寶林的事件。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，寶林事件啊，鬧出人命來，所以我要講的是，今天我們政府預算也給你啦，就像審計部報告講的，編列30億元的預算給你了。我想請問，到底現在政府對於食安的部分，我們給你預算、給你經費，你有把食安做好嗎？我不知道審計長怎麼看，你們自己在審核過程當中，政府對於食安的這件事情，真的有做到所有該做的事情嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有從食安五環裡面的源頭管理，各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見，希望他們去重視。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝審計長。以上，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員智強的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號洪委員申翰詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.96221875,"end":9.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謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元 對不對"},{"start":48.769,"end":70.163,"text":"那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢"},{"start":72.475,"end":82.684,"text":"這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好"},{"start":83.622,"end":104.328,"text":"當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高"},{"start":105.329,"end":125.895,"text":"使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律"},{"start":127.335,"end":153.135,"text":"那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教"},{"start":154.296,"end":180.8,"text":"沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼"},{"start":182.346,"end":210.475,"text":"這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順中一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題"},{"start":211.741,"end":237.077,"text":"事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要"},{"start":238.138,"end":259.487,"text":"把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性嘛這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎這我認同好"},{"start":261.684,"end":279.333,"text":"那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫"},{"start":280.313,"end":308.706,"text":"有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢"},{"start":310.911,"end":337.485,"text":"非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估口型性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重"},{"start":339.045,"end":367.264,"text":"我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切了就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限數的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究"},{"start":368.124,"end":392.31,"text":"實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個"},{"start":393.03,"end":409.338,"text":"沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右"},{"start":416.502,"end":418.424,"text":"那核定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的"},{"start":432.996,"end":449.09,"text":"合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的"},{"start":450.35,"end":469.257,"text":"但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我講是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有"},{"start":479.585,"end":487.299,"text":"高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌"},{"start":490.083,"end":516.261,"text":"所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊"},{"start":518.743,"end":537.001,"text":"就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了相近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊"},{"start":537.802,"end":548.549,"text":"然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢"},{"start":550.509,"end":575.054,"text":"因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在指標前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助"},{"start":576.981,"end":581.983,"text":"審計部告告當中又提到,前瞻計劃地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。"},{"start":597.37,"end":612.025,"text":"上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計劃財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的"},{"start":613.607,"end":631.589,"text":"投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成"},{"start":632.21,"end":659.333,"text":"所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛才就講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差"},{"start":660.715,"end":680.315,"text":"當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的"},{"start":683.358,"end":705.718,"text":"撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳"},{"start":707.455,"end":735.157,"text":"那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現"},{"start":736.078,"end":755.654,"text":"他只要舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做得真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席長你知道發生什麼事情嗎"},{"start":757.649,"end":769.788,"text":"蘇丹鴻事件對,施安在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴阿他才誇口質疑食安系有性食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發"},{"start":771.26,"end":792.651,"text":"不到幾天我問薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安的問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建業院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁"},{"start":793.992,"end":818.939,"text":"結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這八年比馬英九執政那八年每年多四百人八年算起來都快要三千多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜安院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎"},{"start":821.769,"end":847.646,"text":"你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢應該一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊"},{"start":849.023,"end":874.857,"text":"結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的"},{"start":876.574,"end":896.066,"text":"編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?"},{"start":898.168,"end":914.381,"text":"我們會從這個《蘇安五法》裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視好 非常謝謝沈紀長 以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問"}]}},{"id":"150842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcc28b604d3b2ee290da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6e92a92b80374a8335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:43:40 - 11:59:06","影片長度":"00:15:26","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":926,"end_time":"2024-04-02T11:59:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T11:43:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時43分）謝謝主席，感謝有記住我姓鍾、不姓徐，謝謝院長。有請我們的陳審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。我們看到這次有常態的年度決算以及特別決算，我要請教一下審計長，這個決算審計當然依法包括在財務上要審核財務收支、在績效上要提出建議跟預警，你覺得在這三個決算當中，其合法性的審議還OK嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還OK。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有財務上的很多違失呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有查到一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一些啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好像有重複發啦！或者溢領啦！不合資格領……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我看到您的報告，我是特別重視對績效性審計您的意見。這三個決算，它的規模大概是加起來有多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多3、4兆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3兆7,500億。好，分別是2兆7,000億、8,300億及2,200億，我們往下來看，目前你提出了10項審計的意見，我很重視，你特別提到防疫紓困振興決算一個部分，前瞻第三期一個部分，然後關於111年度的總決算提出了包括安全的部分，你提到交通安全、資通安全、毒品防制；人口的部分你提到了少子女化的對策還有長照2.0；關於居住的部分你提到都市更新、都市計畫跟青年居住，是不是？顯見審計長很重視這幾個項目。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們現在在發展關鍵議題，對於國際、民生……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，底下我就依序根據您的意見，我來提出我的看法。首先，我們看到您提到這次111年度的決算當中，有發現臺灣中油跟台電有虧損，什麼原因造成的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有談到燃料價格在上漲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就國際燃料價格的上漲，成本提高嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在這種情況之下為了避免，我們在審計建議上，我們覺得它是不是應該適當調整電價？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這一方面因為涉及民生問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：從審計的角度是不是應該要考慮成本提升要調整？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：成本要提升以外，台電因為它的負債，它的利息費用也大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它的負債是來自於之前電價低、成本高所造成的，你看其他國家電價也是漲得很兇，那我們電價要不要反映成本，你認為從審計的角度，電價要不要反映成本？這兩間公司。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果在整個經營體質強化以後，我認為如果再沒有要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要反映成本？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你覺得目前我們電價的調整，大戶漲幅高，但是小戶微調，你覺得這樣對於民生的衝擊是不是相對比較輕？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經有考慮到了，但是能夠儘量考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以我們來繼續看，在111年度的總決算當中，您提到財政紀律，歲入歲出的平衡，你提到歲入歲出的賸餘將近有5,000億，還了1,500億的債，你覺得目前的財政收支結構是否有改善了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為財政收支結構就在看經常收支這塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：經常收支這一塊已經有大幅改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大幅改善？很好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經多了五、六千億的賸餘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以國家的財政體質有改善。所以你看一看各國政府的債務比，目前以臺灣來看，我們的債務占 GDP的比重，你覺得臺灣算是表現得怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該比其他國家好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都來得好嘛！我們只有24.1%嘛！一年期以上的債務的GDP占比很低嘛！是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：表示我們國家未來在因應國家的各種需要、各種突發狀況，我們有餘裕，如果有必要舉債的話，我們是禁得起的，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，因為還有一、兩兆的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一、兩兆的空間，很好，你講出了一、兩兆的空間，那麼防疫跟紓困振興計畫當中你提到了，我請教一下，這將近八千三百多億當中，你覺得哪個部會執行的比例最高？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該在振興裡面是經濟部最高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是管振興，就防疫紓困振興，一般人聽到防疫紓困振興，直覺就反應什麼？衛福部啦、買疫苗啦、買口罩啦、照顧這些病患花最多錢，事實上是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為在振興這一塊花掉了將近4,000億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，我們經濟部擔任經濟部主管的就是三千三百多億，占了4成，衛福部主管的不到3成，所以重點，如果你們審計報告的話，你們重點要看什麼？看經濟部跟這些紓困跟振興的，是不是比較是重點？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的，我們會按照……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟審計長說，你們花了很多篇幅在討論疫苗，我說一個八千三百多億的大餅要你們去審計，要是我是你的話，我先看什麼？花最多的，紓困跟振興將近多少？4,000億嘛！當中經濟部最主要嘛！花了三千三百多億嘛！你知道經濟部這三千三百多億花在哪裡？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大概補貼企業的這些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有個人的三倍券、五倍券嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三倍券、五倍券加起來花了超過一千六百多億嘛！占了一半嘛！其他的就是補貼企業，減少他們的衝擊嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經濟部這三千三百多億當中有一半是個人濟弱對不對？讓這些弱勢的可以拿到補貼；另外的扶傾，企業營運遇到困難的，幫助它繼續戰下去。好，如果從這幾個角度來看，最重要的防疫紓困振興當中，我們重視的你們看到了，你們告訴我們說這裡面有重複領的，你覺得嚴不嚴重、比例高不高？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們查到差不多應該繳回了九億多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3,944億元的紓困運動當中，應該追繳的占不到0.3%，比例算很低吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們遇到緊急情況的時候要從優、從速……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，就是從優、從速、從寬。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們顧在後面，讓這個制度能推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以重要的緊急狀況從優、從速，應該關心、注意的是需要幫助的人有沒有得到幫助，不是計較少數人有沒有占小便宜，是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要問你們，你們的審計報告應該放在到底這些錢花下去，需要幫助的人有沒有都拿到，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們得到幫助之後夠不夠？人都快餓死了，你給他兩個包子，他有得到幫助，但是活不下去，所以我要問你們的審計報告有沒有注意到經濟部對企業的振興或紓困，有沒有幫助這些企業活起來、活回來、站下去？有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會整個看過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們看過之後，有沒有達到你們覺得應該有的績效？這些錢給這些需要幫助的企業或個人，有幫助他繼續經營下去嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們看這幾年的經濟成長都非常良好，就知道這方面有一些那個……但是我們會注意到弱勢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長，你這樣講就讓我覺得不夠專業，這個錢花下去有沒有效果，你說看起來都活得不錯，所以應該效果不錯，我是覺得你們要花點時間去經濟部調一調這些資料，你知道這些錢花給誰嗎？那些營業額不到20萬的、免用統一發票的，我們1家給4萬塊，你知道吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：知道，委員很關注這一塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我很重視這一塊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些小店家有沒有因為這些紓困的預算砸下去而度過難關？你們有沒有去追蹤？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們要去追蹤，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要去看一下，這些錢撒下去了，需要幫助人拿到了，但是夠不夠？有沒有幫助他站起來？所以我希望你們對於後續補貼申請跟營運的資料要繼續蒐集，不是說這個決算就通過了，到底這個錢有沒有效果？你說都活得很好，所以有效，不信！你們要用數據的方式去統計，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝，我們會照委員的意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以誰需要補助、誰值得投資，我這邊提出一個看法，我過去在院會的時候有提出，我希望能讓小店家減輕稅務負擔，過去我們的起徵點，20萬以下免用統一發票的營業稅大概是4萬、8萬，服務業4萬、一般其他的8萬免徵，到20萬之間的規模呢？1%營業稅。20萬以上要用統一發票，要5%的營業稅，我曾經提出可不可以把起徵點提高到20萬，要開發票才要徵營業稅，而且20萬到50萬之間，我們跟它徵1%的營業稅優惠，你知道這個1%營業稅的優惠構想從哪裡來嗎？是我們2018年賴清德院長的時候，他為了鼓勵青年創業，這些青年創業會用行動支付，只要你使用行動支付，就算營業額從十幾萬變成二十幾萬、三十幾萬，都可以繼續適用1%的營業稅優惠，你覺得這個政策好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道它明年要落日了嗎？到明年為止。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果政策好、效益大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也支持繼續推動？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要繼續推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以我就提出來了，今年財政部考慮要把這些小店家的起徵點調高到14萬跟7萬，當然離我的目標20萬還有點距離，但是我接下來的主張是什麼？比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者，他的營業稅本來是5%，給予有條件的1%優惠，而20萬以下通通免徵營業稅，這些人將近52萬、53萬，減少的稅收只少收34.7億。你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年就收了多少錢嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：五千多億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，五千多億，少個三十幾億，你覺得國家承擔得起嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個可以促進，因為他們是小本生意，能夠幫他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，小規模的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個對我們整個社會的平等很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你也支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。所以再看到前瞻計畫，前瞻三期大概2,200億，對不對？你覺得它有什麼效果？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它提升了一些工作，這是國科會有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在你們的報告裡面，它創造14萬個就業機會，也帶動4,000億的民間投資，你覺得划不划算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這應該是划算的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們的審計意見是要提升執行能力，要加強對地方的管考，還有未辦理可行性研究及綜合評估，我覺得你們寫的很一般啦！創造了就業機會，帶動了民間投資，你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8,000億的前瞻建設，未來的國家希望工程也繼續投資？現在國家的財政，你說大概有一、兩兆的空間，你支不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設，帶動國家基礎建設，幫助國家發展的特別預算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們審計一般都尊重行政部門或者大院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那從前瞻預算決算的執行效能，你覺得是有效果的嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：砸下去，我們會很注意效能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，那也值得未來繼續推動。好，那我先問你，你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的希望工程，國家特別預算大概要用多少？3兆、2兆、1兆，你覺得規模大概多少，參考蔡總統的8年8,000億？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我還是考慮要稍微注意到財政的承受性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得3兆可能嗎？3兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我還是要評估這個財政的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3兆超過我們的中央政府總預算對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：財政的承受性，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那2兆比較有可能？2兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是因為你剛剛有說到……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們沒有評估……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們目前的財政結構健全，一、兩兆的舉債空間都有嘛！那保守一點，1兆是不是比較可以承擔的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是比較偏向財政的永續還是要考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：永續嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但你剛剛提到臺灣最近幾年的財政發展餘裕良好，還有一、兩兆的空間。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還有建設的成本……還有效益，效益也重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間，大概1兆的空間，你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2,500億的花東快、去支持一個8,000億的國六延花蓮段，甚至有人評估要花2兆的環島高鐵，加起來3兆，這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我都尊重行政院，還有大院的整個決議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我來總和，我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有一、兩兆的舉債空間，如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫，就要評估了。但是什麼可以做呢？我們來看一下，你有沒有聽過桃園機場歲修跑道塞機，有沒有聽過？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個報紙都有報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，你覺得是什麼受到影響？是客運受到影響，還是貨運受到影響？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我直接告訴你啦！臺灣的空運有九成六在桃園，貨運有五成一在桃園，桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啦！影響是貨運啦！貨運當中最重要是半導體的晶片出口，半導體產業重要不重要？對臺灣重不重要？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當然重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且半導體的產業重心已經南移，所以未來我們希望在南部建一個國際貨運機場，你覺得這有沒有助於符合未來臺灣10年半導體產業的出口需求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：整個台積電在中南部都已經落腳了，所以可能都是一個很好的評估方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在你的口頭報告當中有肯定前瞻建設，經濟成果再投入強化特定建設，111年的總決算你有提到長照2.0、少子化對策、毒品防制等未來繼續加強，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你肯定了這三項。好，那現在我們省錢還債之後，什麼值得投資？你覺得如果依據目前臺灣育兒現況調查，值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們現在少子化，幼兒的照顧非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼？就是幼保員的薪水啦！其實相較於國中小教師，他們的薪水偏低，如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水，你覺得有沒有幫助？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個當然有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我最後的結論，我們聽今天的決算報告，電價要合理調整；財政強化，特別預算可以投入特定建設、年度預算投資下一代；幫助青年創業，我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍，你覺得如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我一直支持委員的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：太好了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員佳濱的詢問，再一次謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","報告院會，上午會議進行到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會，進行審核報告之諮詢，現在休息。","休息（11時59分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強"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我的主張是什麼"},{"start":597.594,"end":606.761,"text":"就是說比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者他的營業稅本來5%給他有條件的1%的優惠而20萬以下的通通是免徵營業稅這樣子這些人將近52萬、53萬他減少的稅收只少收了34.7億你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年營業稅收了多少錢嗎"},{"start":624.943,"end":650.684,"text":"五千多億對五千多億少個三十幾億你覺得國家承擔得起嗎這個可以促進因為他們是小本生意能夠幫他這個因為對我們整個社會平等很重要所以你也支持謝謝那我們往下看所以在看到你的前瞻計畫前瞻三期大概2200億對不對那你覺得他有什麼效果"},{"start":652.193,"end":674.63,"text":"他提升了一些工作這是國科會有你們的報告裡面他創造了14萬個就業機會也帶動了4千億的民間投資你覺得划不划算這應該是划算的但是你們的審計意見當中要提升執行能力要加強對地方的管考還有未來有沒有沒有辦法行行民國的研究規劃我覺得你們寫的就很一般"},{"start":676.233,"end":699.618,"text":"創造了就業機會：帶動了民間投資未來你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8千億的前瞻建設未來的國家西方工程也繼續投資我們現在國家的財政你說大概有一兩兆的空間你知不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設這樣帶動國家基礎建設幫助國家發展的特別預算"},{"start":703.559,"end":721.159,"text":"我們損失啊一般都尊重行政部門好好地答應那你從這個前瞻預算的決算的執行效能你覺得是有效果的嘛對不對當然 扎下去我們會很注意效能對 那也值得未來繼續推動好 那我先問你喔你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的"},{"start":721.819,"end":740.406,"text":"希望工程國家特別預算大概要用多少三兆兩兆一兆你覺得規模大概多少參考到蔡總統的八年八千八百億我還是考慮到要稍微注意到財政的承受性你覺得三兆可能嗎三兆我還是要評估這個財政的承受性那兩兆怎麼可能兩兆"},{"start":748.115,"end":755.386,"text":"但是你剛剛有說到我們目前的財政結構健全嘛一兩兆的舉在空間都有嘛那保守一點一兆是不是比較可以承擔的"},{"start":756.803,"end":784.949,"text":"我是比較偏向財政的永續還是有考慮永續嘛對不對但你剛剛提到台灣的最近幾年的財政發展呢餘裕良好還有一兩兆的成本還有建設的成本還有效益如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間大概一兆的空間你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2500億的花東塊去支持一個8000億的國六研發連段甚至有人評估要花兩兆的黃藻高鐵加起來三兆"},{"start":785.709,"end":807.802,"text":"這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎?我整個都尊重行政院還有大院的整個決議所以我就是總和我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有1、2兆的舉財空間如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫我就要評估啦往下看但是怎麼可以做呢?我們來看一下你有沒有聽過桃園機場稅休跑到塞機"},{"start":808.956,"end":812.97,"text":"有沒有聽過你覺得是怎麼受到影響是客運受到影響還是貨運受到影響"},{"start":816.912,"end":846.108,"text":"這個我沒有我直接告訴你啦台灣的空運啊貨運有九成六在桃園啊五成一在桃園啊桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啊影響的是貨運啊貨運當中最重要的是我們半陶體的晶片出口啦半陶體產業重不重要對台灣重不重要當然很重要而且半陶體的產業重心已經難移啊所以未來呢我們希望在南部建一個國際的貨運機場你覺得這有沒有有助於符合未來台灣十年半陶體產業的出口需求"},{"start":847.52,"end":873.165,"text":"整個看台積電在中南部已經都有漏腳了所以可能這個都是一個很好的評估方向那在你的那個口頭報當中有肯定前瞻建設新規成果再投入強化特定建設110年的總決算你有提到長照2.0少數化對策住民房子未來繼續加強對不對對你肯定了這三項好那現在我們省錢還債之後什麼值得投資"},{"start":874.005,"end":898.142,"text":"你覺得如果目前台灣的育兒情況來調查值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上因為我們現在少主要幼兒照顧非常重要非常重要好所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼就是幼兒幼保員的薪水啦其實相較於我們的國中小教師他們的薪水偏低如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水你覺得有沒有幫助這個當然有幫助"},{"start":900.077,"end":923.128,"text":"好所以我最後的結論直接跳到最後一頁我們聽今天的決算報告呢電價要合理調整我們財政的強化特別預算可以投入特定建設年度預算投資下一代幫助青年創業我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍你覺得如何我一直支持委員的意見太好了謝謝謝謝鍾委員嘉賓的"}]}},{"id":"150841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc4bc950dddb8b5959da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a603cac7c6f5ce69575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:27:54 - 11:43:31","影片長度":"00:15:37","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":937,"end_time":"2024-04-02T11:43:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T11:27:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時28分）謝謝院長。主席以及各位先進，有請陳審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長早。先來探討一個比較大的項目，我們國家現在的未償債務，就是還沒有還的債務有多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：到3月底止，有6兆2,000億。"],["賴委員士葆：6兆2,000億？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["賴委員士葆：6兆2,000億，到上個月底，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：到3月底止。"],["賴委員士葆：到3月底，6兆2,000億。馬英九的時代，馬英九當過總統，他卸任了，那時候債務多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：五兆三千多億。"],["賴委員士葆：他的時代就五兆多？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：五兆多。"],["賴委員士葆：他是五兆多？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：五兆多。"],["賴委員士葆：可是為什麼你的數字寫1.7兆呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：1.7兆？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我的數字沒有……你是指債務餘額嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：債務餘額。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：債務餘額不可能1.7兆，那時候五兆多。"],["賴委員士葆：五兆多，現在六兆二，所以增加多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在整個增加……六兆二減掉五兆多，差不多五千多億。"],["賴委員士葆：增加五千多億？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，到3月。如果以111年，那個是四千多億。"],["賴委員士葆：去年的話……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：以今年的決算報告是4,200億。"],["賴委員士葆：去年底的話是六兆六。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：六兆六是預算數。"],["賴委員士葆：預算數？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，後來稅收好的時候，就減少舉債，增加還債，所以債務控制在……"],["賴委員士葆：我看到你的報告，那時候聯合報還誇你，它說你對於審計這一塊，你說前瞻分配不公，執行不切實際，聯合報幫你拍拍手拍成那樣……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它那是過度解讀，剛剛講的，我沒有做，我不會做這樣的解釋，大家都是公務員，大家都在努力，我們儘量，大家都在努力，難免會有一些缺失……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你沒有這樣講？人家肯定你，你退縮了？你是不是退縮了，你怕政治……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那不是退縮，那個是過度解讀。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你是一把大刀。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我從任命的時候，你就一直這樣鼓勵我，謝謝、謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你是大刀，你有任期保障、有六年的任期保障。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝、謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：比我們院長還長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：你一直鼓勵我，你一直都鼓勵我，謝謝、謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：不用考慮政治的東西，該怎麼講就怎麼講。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我很認真。"],["賴委員士葆：我們來看，今天有三個項目，一個是前瞻，前瞻的執行率排行榜，最差的，衛福部最差，31%；第二差的是數位部，38%，那裡有寫，審計長看一下。農業部46%，這都是跟我們社會大家印象中很接近耶，大家覺得衛福部在前瞻就是要錢要很多，數發部也是拼命要錢，結果錢都用不掉，執行率只有31%，31%的執行率、38%、46%，你怎麼看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們通知它改善、通知它改善，國家給它錢，它要好好做。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是我的職責。"],["賴委員士葆：我的感覺啦！你把這個審計長越做越小，你知道嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會、不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我還在稱讚你，你也不敢扛起來，還退縮，照理講，你要好好給它一個警告或是什麼，結果你們的審計報告不痛不癢，那個東西……因為衛福部部長叫做陳時中，你不敢碰他，很怕。審計長，你比他還大耶！真的，你的大刀有夠大，我的數字給你、做球給你，你話都不敢講，小小聲……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我剛剛講得很大聲，剛剛你問我，我講得還不小聲。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你啊！你怎麼叫它改進？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這些我們都有通知。"],["賴委員士葆：衛福部怎麼改進？你叫它怎麼改進？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：衛福部的長照本來都落後，現在都改進了，長照布建的地方都改進了……"],["賴委員士葆：其實有件事情，衛福部裡面的食藥署編了31億的預算要蓋行政大樓，所有前瞻計畫裡面，只有101個敢去蓋行政大樓就是衛福部食藥署，你也不敢糾正。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有……"],["賴委員士葆：我在這裡、我在立法院……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們沒有糾正權，但是我有審計權，我有通知它：你太慢了。"],["賴委員士葆：它怎麼敢用前瞻的錢去蓋大樓？沒有人敢蓋。我那時候跟柯建銘吵，我說我不同意，不同意他們就表決，他們一定贏，沒辦法，我只好鼻子摸一摸，砍5,000萬，才給我砍5,000萬，我很不甘願，這個錢到現在蓋不出來，物價都漲，對不對？而且我再強調一遍，前瞻預算裡面只有衛福部食藥署敢編三十幾億去蓋它的行政大樓，敢去蓋！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當時的瞭解，它那個是食品衛生的方面。"],["賴委員士葆：裡面就藏幾個實驗室，比如這棟大樓的十幾樓藏兩個實驗室、五個實驗室，其他都是辦公大樓，這樣子搞，我把它抓出來，結果你實在是……","你看數位部，大家印象就是衛福部的錢亂用、數位部錢亂用、農業部錢亂用，真的抓出來，數字會說話。再來，111年度，今年的決算報告之一，裡面的外交部一方面錢花不掉，二方面保留預算，保留的錢最多，保留比例30%、90億，結果它還有剩36億，你知道這是什麼意思嗎？我的錢用不完，我還要再做一部分的保留，我的錢都用不完了，我還要保留錢。這個東西好像什麼？好像我們小時候看兄弟姐妹大家在吃東西，公家的先拿一點過來這裡，我自己的放這裡，吃兩份，外交部就是這樣子，你有沒有處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，你看出來了，我們當時也提醒它，它可能保留一些承諾，國際外交的承諾它要保留下來，但是我說編預算的時候處理就好了，所以我們希望它的錢趕快去買房舍，它的房舍自有率很低，所以外交部的部分我們都有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：中央全部的經費賸餘有371億，結果它保留700多億，加起來就有1,000多億，1,000多億放在各部會的手上，變成這樣子啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們通知它要改，它要研究啊！"],["賴委員士葆：改了沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它好像還不容易改。"],["賴委員士葆：它不理你啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！不會啦！我們會慢慢和它共同解決這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你這隻刀看起來很大很利，但是你耍起來不是很厲害，所以大家對你的態度就是你寫你的，它不鳥你啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會！不會！"],["賴委員士葆：講難聽一點就是不理你啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會！不會！"],["賴委員士葆：結果就是這樣，這個情況都一樣，第二預備金也一樣，各部會的第二預備金也是亂用一通，到最後這幾年全部都用完，第二預備金一樣，我有看你們的報告，今天沒有時間討論這個問題，我看到問題，可是你給它糾正也好……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們要共同來努力。"],["賴委員士葆：我的意思是，拜託你也兇一點，你都不夠兇。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我很兇了。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長都不夠兇，大家都不怕你，行政部門都不怕你。再來，你知不知道現在前瞻還剩多少錢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：前瞻如果是編預算的話，8,400億到現在已經編了7,000多億，所以還有700多億還沒編。"],["賴委員士葆：還有704億。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，委員算得很清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我們的第七條第一款講得很清楚，它是四年為一個期程，所以照理講八年沒有用完，這個錢是不是要繳庫？我請問你，可以繼續用嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是這樣啦，這個是尊重大院或者尊重行政院去處理，這是預算編列的問題，還剩700多億，但是法裡面規定以四年為期程，它可能超過期程了，所以這個部分希望……"],["賴委員士葆：超過可以用嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是大院決定，我們審計尊重。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你也不敢說話。下一個，我今天是根據你的報告來問你的，審計決算報告指出，國際食品警訊通報假的，這些話都是你寫的，食藥署沒有掌握問題產品在國內流通的情形，為什麼？沒有依標準作業SOP查證問題，沒有設系統條件，沒有辦法即時蒐訊，譬如，找不到冰淇淋、下錯架，如泡麵、巧克力，讓食品的消費紅綠燈變成沒有用，食品紅綠燈是你說的，你講一下好嗎？這是你的報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：食品安全影響國人很大，所以建立機制非常重要，因為你要靠查證，靠機制，所以涉及機制的部分，我們都會加強查核，加強提出意見，來幫忙解決問題。"],["賴委員士葆：那它做不到怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們還會繼續努力，我們會再善盡職責。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼努力？它就是做不到，它不理你，怎麼努力？你也講給我們聽一下。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們也要考慮對方，我們儘量再看它的改善情形，我們的意見都會經過他們確認，確認完以後，他們一般都會來改善。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們來看大家關心的議題，有關於電價上漲的問題，請問你知不知道現在台電資本額多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：資本額？"],["賴委員士葆：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是你寫的5,800億……"],["賴委員士葆：5,800億，還沒有算補貼500億，再補貼1,000億；補貼1,500億再加5,800億，這麼多的錢，居然還要跟老百姓漲價、要跟我們要錢，一頭牛剝好幾皮，這句話你同意吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為資本額是強壯台電的體質，補貼就是政府拿稅補貼它的虧損。"],["賴委員士葆：已經補貼了，還要漲價？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在這種情況它一年大概估計，因為它的售電單價低於它的發電成本，所以還有問題要解決。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！你講得很好啊！就是賣得比成本低啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！是這樣的情形。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼會這個樣子？就是人員、結構的問題。我們來看，我把數字給你，清清楚楚的數字，8年來用核電賺多少錢？替台電賺了2,400億，一年賺300億，現在7月份核三要停掉了，所以我就請教你，要不要督促政府改一下發電的結構、人員的結構、核電的比例？從審計的角度，核三廠要延役，這個角度對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般核電成本，依據委員的統計是低的……"],["賴委員士葆：就是這樣啊！每一年賺300億啊！每一年賺300億啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在符合成本的就是核電和水力，核電比水力還低……"],["賴委員士葆：還便宜，是啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是對核電大家存有安全疑慮的問題，所以這個安全的問題要解決。"],["賴委員士葆：火力問題更危險啦！現在肺癌是國病第一名，都是因為空氣、空污，燒天然氣、燒煤容易得肺癌，核電還沒有出什麼問題，台電的核電管理人力全世界排名第四名，台電的核電管理人員這麼強，你擔心什麼安全問題，對不對？這個完全不是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以這要在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你是債務一額嗎債務一額債務一額他不可能1.7兆 他說5兆多5兆多 那現在6兆2所以增加多少增加 現在整個增加5兆6減掉5兆多 差不多5000多億"},{"start":107.079,"end":133.39,"text":"增加五千多億對到三月如果以11年或者是四千多億去年的話以今年的結算報告是四千兩百億去年底的話是六兆六六兆六那是預算室預算室對預算室他後來沒有那個稅收好的時候就減少擠債增加還債所以我看到你的報告"},{"start":135.543,"end":151.964,"text":"那時候聯合報還誇你啊他說你啊你對於審計你審計這一塊你說前瞻分配不公執行不切實際聯合報把你打破打成這樣"},{"start":154.298,"end":175.435,"text":"他那個是過度解讀啦,我剛剛講的我沒有做,我不會做這樣的解釋啦公務員啊,大家都在努力齁我們盡量啊,大家都在努力,難免會有一些簽署單字人家肯定是你嬌氣啊,你怕政治啊那個不是嬌氣,那個是過度解讀這個,沈縣長,你是一把大刀"},{"start":177.275,"end":186.543,"text":"你從我從任命的時候你就一直這樣鼓勵我啊謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝不用考慮政治東西該怎麼講是怎麼講我們來看我們來看這個前瞻因為今天我們三個項目一個是前瞻前瞻的執行率啊排行榜最差的"},{"start":204.555,"end":224.785,"text":"維護部最差31%第二差的數位部38%你看看要跳下跳下來神機長靠近靠近農業部46%這個都是跟我們社會大家印象中很接近的大家覺得維護部"},{"start":227.133,"end":252.595,"text":"前瞻就是要錢要很多蘇華部也是拼命要錢結果錢都用不掉執行率只有31%31%執行率38% 46%你怎麼看我們通知他改善通知他改善國家給他錢他要好好做市長"},{"start":254.691,"end":281.918,"text":"這是我的主責啊我的感覺啦你這審計長你把這個審計長越做越小你知道嗎不會不會不會他才跟你嘔嚕阿你也不給他扛起來阿你急起齁照理講你要給他給他好好的一個警告或者什麼的結果你們的你們的審計報告就不痛不癢那個東西啊因為衛部部長叫做陳時中你不肯碰他嚇到這個"},{"start":284.342,"end":308.922,"text":"實際上你比他們大真的,你那大刀有夠大我的數字給你,桌球給你,你的話都不敢講謝謝神啊我剛剛講得很大聲欸剛剛李毓羅講得還不小聲啊我就問你啊,你怎麼叫他改進啊對啊,像這些我們都有通知衛福部怎麼改進,你叫他怎麼改進"},{"start":311.012,"end":323.247,"text":"他那個長照本來長照都落後現在都改進了長照的那個部件的地方都改進了其實啊"},{"start":324.813,"end":353.544,"text":"其實有個事情啊衛福部的裡面的食藥署編了三十億億的預算蓋行政大樓所有的前瞻計畫裡面只有101個敢去蓋行政大樓的就是衛福部的食藥署你也不敢糾正啊我在這裡我在立法院寫到的時候我有糾正錢啊但是我有損盡錢我有通知他啊你太慢了啊他怎麼敢去用前瞻的錢去蓋大樓沒有人敢蓋啊"},{"start":354.484,"end":372.236,"text":"我那時候跟柯建民跟他吵我 我說我不同意 不同意他們就表決 他們一定贏啦沒辦法我只好鼻子摸一摸 砍五千萬這樣給我砍五千萬咧 我就不敢玩了咧這個錢到現在咧 好到現在 蓋不出來了 蓋不出來了 物價都漲"},{"start":373.237,"end":398.019,"text":"對不對而且我再強調一遍前瞻預算裡面只有衛務部的食藥署敢編30幾億去蓋他的行政大樓當時的了解啊他那個是食品衛生的方式然後裡面就藏幾個實驗室比如說我們這邊大樓十幾樓藏兩個實驗室五個實驗室其他都是辦公大樓這樣子搞我把他抓出來"},{"start":399.653,"end":424.731,"text":"喔 啊 結果你 你實在齁蘇維部 你看大家印象就是 嗯 衛福部大家覺得淺亂用蘇維部淺亂用 農業部淺亂用真的 抓出來三個 不會蘇是不會說話再看111年度今年也是決勝報告之一裡面裡面 外交部"},{"start":427.165,"end":442.863,"text":"一方面他錢花不掉二方面保留預算保留的錢最多保留比例30%90億結果他還有剩36億你知道這是什麼嗎我錢用不完我還要再做外部人的保留"},{"start":444.332,"end":460.853,"text":"我的錢都用不完了我還要保留錢這個東西啊好像什麼我們小時候就看這個兄弟姊妹啊大家吃東西啊公家的先拿一點過來這裡我自己的放這裡吃兩份外交部就是這樣外交部這樣子"},{"start":461.74,"end":487.959,"text":"謝謝委員你看出來了我們當時也提醒他他可能他保留成他有一些承諾國際外交的承諾他要保留下來但是我說被立算的時候就處理就好了所以我的錢我們希望他趕快去買黃色那些黃色他的住有率很低所以外交部的部分我們都有要求中央全部的"},{"start":489.62,"end":503.428,"text":"經費的剩餘有371億結果還保留700多億加起來就1000多億啦1000多億放在各部會的手上欸變這個樣子啊我們通知他要改啊要他研究啊改了沒有"},{"start":504.509,"end":516.36,"text":"他好像還不容易改不會啦不會啦我們會和他共同我們慢慢會和他共同解決這個問題所以大家對你就是你做你想"},{"start":526.189,"end":528.851,"text":"不鳥你啊不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會"},{"start":552.989,"end":569.561,"text":"糾正也好我們共同來努力我的意思就是說拜託你也給我派一下你都沒給我派我還要先派啊省機長都沒給我派大家都不怕你行政部門都不怕你錢瞻你知不知道現在錢瞻剩多少錢"},{"start":579.6,"end":607.028,"text":"前瞻如果你是編譯算的話他因為8400億啊他現在已經編了7000多億所以還有700多億還沒編704億對委員算得很清楚但是我們的第7條第一款講得很清楚喔他是4年為一個期程喔所以他照理講就是8年啊8年內沒有用完這個錢是不是在繳付啊請問你可以繼續用嗎"},{"start":608.373,"end":636.765,"text":"他是這樣這個是尊重大院或者尊重行政院去處理這是預算編列還有的問題這個還剩700多億但是法裡面有4年為期程他可能超過期程所以這一個部分希望這個是大院決定我們選舉尊重所以你們不敢說話好我們再看一個下一個下一個你的報告我覺得是根據你報告來問你的"},{"start":639.971,"end":666.398,"text":"審計的決算報告：國際食品警訊通報：假的因為食藥署這個話都是你寫的食藥署沒有掌握問題問題產品在國內流通的情形為什麼沒有以標準作業SOP查證問題沒有以設計系統的條件沒有辦法即時的收訊例如說"},{"start":669.681,"end":686.497,"text":"你找不到人喔冰淇淋蝦醋醬泡麵巧克力讓食品有消費紅綠燈變不好的食品紅綠燈這是你說的你講一下好了這是你的報告這一個"},{"start":687.386,"end":711.651,"text":"我們食品安全影響國人很大所以建立基柱非常重要因為你要靠茶靠那個用基柱來所以我們涉及基柱的部分我們都會加強查核加強提出意見來幫忙解決這個問題那他做不到怎麼辦我們還會繼續努力我們會再善盡執著"},{"start":715.777,"end":716.577,"text":"有關於電價要上漲的問題"},{"start":744.398,"end":768.886,"text":"請問你知不知道現在台電資本額多少資本額加了那個就是你寫的五千八百億還沒有算補貼五百億再補貼一千億補貼一千五百億再加五千八這麼多的錢然後居然還要跟老百姓漲價要跟我們要錢一頭牛撥好幾層皮這句話你同意吧"},{"start":770.537,"end":795.007,"text":"因為豬本樓是強壯它台電的體質補貼就是漢虧損政府拿稅去補貼它的虧損已經補貼了還要漲價它一年大概估計現在這種情況因為它的售電的單價低於它的售電成本"},{"start":796.551,"end":823.954,"text":"那個發電成本所以阿對阿你講得很好阿就是賣得比成本低阿阿為什麼這樣子就是人員結構的問題阿我們來看我們來看我數字給你清楚清清楚楚一個數字用核電8年來核電賺多少錢台電賺了2400億一年賺300億你現在7月份核酸要去掉了"},{"start":825.137,"end":840.698,"text":"所以我就請教你要不要督促這個政府要改一下他的發電的結構、人員的結構、核電的比例、核三長要演繹這個從審計的角度這個角度對不對一般啦"},{"start":844.146,"end":868.243,"text":"核電成本是唯一的統計是低的現在符合成本的就是核電和水利核電還比水利還便宜但是核電大家存有安全疑慮的問題所以這個安全的問題要解決"},{"start":869.212,"end":887.586,"text":"阿火力問題更危險阿現在肺癌阿是國病第一名勒都是因為空氣阿空汙阿燒天然氣阿燒煤阿容易得肺癌勒阿核電還沒有出什麼問題台電的核電管理人力全世界排名第4名"},{"start":889.638,"end":896.465,"text":"台電的合理管理這麼強,你擔心他有什麼問題?對不對?所以這個完全不是,對不對?我就跟你講說,噴到政治問題,你也酸欸你那個英文叫snicky,你也酸欸沈機長"},{"start":904.893,"end":930.577,"text":"沒有算啦!收了後繼續收!沒有!我跟妳講的!我跟妳講的!你這個就是意識形態!你到底就是意識形態!因為民進黨政府的意識形態!讓我們給台電這麼多錢呢!五千八百億加一千五百億!七八千億!然後還要漲電價!然後他還要把核電廠廢掉!這是什麼政府?沒有!"},{"start":934.189,"end":934.734,"text":"謝謝賴委員世保的詢問也謝謝我們"}]}},{"id":"150840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc4c2557f84daba5b4da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a621fef65ff170004a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:14:29 - 11:27:41","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-04-02T11:27:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T11:14:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時14分）主席好。有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：審計長好。我想審計部在決算的審核上相當用心，因為我看了你們的報告就適正合規，還有效能的部分，我想你們扮演了很重要的角色。今天我有兩點建議，希望審計部能夠納入考量，讓我們未來的決算審核方向可以更完整，找出我們的政策實行、執行過程中可能的漏洞，希望審計長能夠接納。","好，首先請問審計長，你有沒有聽過性別主流化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我以前……"],["范委員雲：可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：性別主流化就是大家性別平等吧！"],["范委員雲：呃？是性別平等而已嗎？那為什麼要有性別主流化這個新名詞？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我就沒有委員那麼專業了。"],["范委員雲：好，這個要拜託審計長能夠瞭解，因為它是聯合國的重要方向，也是我們政府的政策方向。它是1997年由聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義，要求政府做什麼呢？評估所有的計畫行動，包含立法、政策、方案等對男女雙方不同的含義影響，就是要讓男女雙方受益均等，政府有職責要落實性別平等，所以主流化就是這個性別議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流，因為政府扮演重要的角色，預算就是政府裡重要的執行。行政院性別平等處也有手冊叫大家怎麼做，因為內容蠻多的，我就念幾點。第一個，要能發展政策去矯正不平等及改變導致不平等的機制。第二個，所有的政府部門都應該運用的策略，所以我們施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統的時候就開始推動了，這裡面有六大工具，這是國際性的，第一個是性別統計，最後一個是性別預算，這兩個東西都跟您的審計有關。性別統計非常重要，為什麼重要？如果連統計都沒有的話，我們就不會知道有沒有效果。這個審計長同意吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["范委員雲：所以統計是基本的，如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異，那你剛看到的年齡、城鄉、身心，其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具，就是性別分析，就是你的政策，譬如前瞻對不同性別的影響，你就做不出來了，所以審計部的決算應該要審核行政院的方案有沒有落實。可不可以請問審計長，您覺得目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實性別主流化呢？如果從0分到100分，您自己打幾分？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：其實是這樣，剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流化，我更加深入，我們審計部現在是請李安妮、周清玉等幫忙這方面，但是在審核的部分，我們是有關注到，但沒有說像委員這樣落實到一個題目出來。"],["范委員雲：那0到100分，您給現在的報告內容……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多60分。"],["范委員雲：60分？好啦！我不知道您這是好還是不好，以我來看是還沒到60分，不過也許我們的標準不一樣，那我有三個建議，也就是三大問題，第一個，行政院及所屬部會其實有編列性別預算，可是行政院的決算報告裡都沒有把決審的審核機制納進去，也就是當時有編列性別預算，可是沒有相關決算報告，你們也沒有去審核到底他們性別預算做的怎麼樣，這是第一個問題。第二個，中央政府的決算，還有你們的決算審核，完全沒有性別統計，誠如我剛剛講的，聯合國的性別主流化六大工具裡面，性別統計是最重要的，如果統計都沒有的話，我們就看不出來政策執行的影響力。我舉個例子給您看，我這邊是衛福部兒少自殺死亡人口的數據，根據統計，男性自殺率高於女性，可見自殺率有性別差異，可是審核意見裡通篇都沒有，這裡面針對兒少群自殺跟心理健康的議題有看到衛福部的審核，但他完全沒有提出來，這樣子我們看不到性別的差異，明明就知道自殺率是有性別差異的，男性也許是因為各方面的壓力大，所以自殺率比較高。因為我們都看不到性別差異，自然就沒辦法看到在這個決算當中，整個政策的執行做得好不好，這是一個例子，所以說為什麼性別統計很重要。","你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核報告，以我來看，您剛剛講的李安妮的確是專家，希望可以多請教她。的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點，你們有很多決算審查意見都非常好，可是我舉一個例子，為什麼你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點？大家可以看到，少子化是我們預算的重要一個部分，可是你們針對少子化預算執行中的專業意見是什麼？逾齡國人逾五成未婚，有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策，鼓勵適齡結婚，這就是你們提出的方向。少子化是全球普遍的議題，審計長應該也知道，那人家解決少子化問題最好的國家是哪些您知不知道？不知道？哪些國家解決了少子化的議題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：本來日本是很低啦，後來有一段時間它有拉升上來。韓國也是很低迷，現在也都在解決，但是日本也有提出適齡的問題。"],["范委員雲：如果只看日本跟韓國，我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習啦，目前能夠解決生育率議題最好的其實是北歐國家，因為他們找出正確的解方。我剛剛還跟劉毓秀教授一起開記者會，除了公托要普及之外，我們的育嬰假要大改革，做到婚育平衡，這是國際的共同解方。如果我們沒有看到解方，因為你現在不可能叫女性退出職場，他們受到教育之後進入職場，如果他進入職場之後蠟燭兩頭燒，他當然就越生越少了，所以重要的是這幾個解方。我沒有看到哪個國家有這樣的解方，不僅沒有性別平等的價值跟理解，最重要的就是沒有性別主流化，看到真正的問題，好嗎？聯合國在2019年針對少子化有提出報告，各位上網都可以查也可以download，針對東亞，尤其指出臺灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡，女性被期待負擔照顧責任，但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧，所以審計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點，如果行政院依照你們的建議去做的話，其實是不會找到解方的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員剛剛說的那些我們都有建議，所以和委員的立場也差不多，但是因為我們的……"],["范委員雲：你們的報告我剛剛又再讀一次，就是非常沒有性別主流化觀點的報告，尤其是針對少子化，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：具體建議三點，第一個，要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計，重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計；第二個，審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況；第三個，請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，委員這個建議很好，我們來做。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們，看看該如何改善。","再來我還有另外一個意見，剛剛也有委員提到你們的審核意見到底如何追蹤管考，我知道你們很努力，可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題，就是我長期監督教育部，也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場基金的成效，可是我們已經看到從107年到111年五年之間停辦的學校增加了五所，教育部顯然還沒有協助學校用多重的方式因應。111年的報告也指出，針對110年的考核意見仍待繼續改善，均再研提審核意見通知檢討改善。審計長，你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎？這樣有用嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會鍥而不捨地來努力，因為這個也是教育部比較重大的問題。"],["范委員雲：我是有點擔心，因為我們對審計長期待很高，針對成效不彰的部分，你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會遵照委員的意見。"],["范委員雲：尤其教育是國家對下一代人才的投資，退場的議題大家都非常地關心，因為它影響到的是退場教師的權益、退場學生的權益，教育部已經有給它相關的工具在這裡了，如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話，一定要更加嚴格，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：因為你們是掌握……各部會都很重視你們。最後，我具體地建議你們要強化監督各級政府施政及究責，提供具體的施政建議，為國家把關資源做有效的運用。如果審計部看到部會做得不好的時候，應該要善用自己的職權，通知表現不好機關的上級機關，對不對？譬如教育部的高教司沒做好，就要通知部長；部長如果都不聽的話，你們不就應該要跟行政院長、上級機關，也向監察院報告，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員的支持，我們都會照委員的意思，這是我們的職責。"],["范委員雲：好。如何提升效能及增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議、要求確實改善的重要職責，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員支持，我們會來努力。"],["范委員雲：當行政院都在推動性別主流化的話，我想審計部也要跟上。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有。"],["范委員雲：監察院也有不少專家。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是委員講的審核報告要注意性別主流化，我已經記進去了。"],["范委員雲：對，報告的專業意見，您記得是哪方面有問題嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：你剛剛說少子化，就講我說適齡結婚等等，那是我們的面向之一。"],["范委員雲：好，少子化是一個例子，這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化，另外一個是監督要有決算報告、要有性別統計。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["范委員雲：另外一個就是你們也要針對行政院自己列出的性別預算，監督它的成效，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對於性別預算，我們會追蹤、會考核。"],["范委員雲：至少三大問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，我們來努力。"],["范委員雲：我明年會繼續來監督一下……不是監督，是給你們建議，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝，歡迎委員監督我們。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第9號賴委員士葆詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.79846875,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.11909375,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":6.5953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81.472,"end":787.101,"text":"謝謝委員 送我們來努力那我明年會繼續來監督一下給你們建議好不好歡迎委員監督我們謝謝沈記長謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc6a6bb029c0a18d7ada4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a64aec45bc72e388245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:58:25 - 11:14:19","影片長度":"00:15:54","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":954,"end_time":"2024-04-02T11:14:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:58:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時58分）主席，您好！我請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：審計長，您好！首先謝謝審計長帶領審計部，這些年來對於中央政府的一些不當政策提出審核跟稽查，也讓大家瞭解到現在百姓所受到的痛苦，其實也跟中央執政這些年來一些錯誤的政策有關，我在這邊也期望審計長能夠繼續帶領審計部，展現我們中華文化御史大夫的風骨，匡正綱紀，然後繼續帶領審計部展現氣節，不知道審計長願不願意？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們來努力。"],["許委員宇甄：是，謝謝。","首先我們來看一下民生議題，就是雞蛋的價格，貴部在111年度中央政府總決算附屬單位決算及綜計表的審核報告非營業部分的報告中指出，到111年12月已經達到了12萬1,200箱，然而因為蛋種雞的進口時程延遲，無法即時更新產蛋雞群，及淘汰後未能即時補充，及氣候、疫情等因素的影響，導致產量急速下滑。接著又寫到，為穩定產銷及因應部分通路的雞蛋短缺，辦理緊急調度加工原料蛋、專案進口國外雞蛋及雞蛋生產獎勵等措施，期增加雞蛋的供應量，以穩定產銷的秩序跟價格。然而，雞蛋短缺的問題到112年3月已延續一年多，仍未有效的解決，且散裝雞蛋的零售價格節節攀升，致生民怨。我們也從右邊養雞協會雞蛋產地的交易行情可以看得出來，雞蛋價格從110年的10月開始攀升，到現在都還沒有回穩，3月底又要漲3塊。請問審計長，貴部的報告指出，函請農委會，也就是現在的農業部，應該要持續精進蛋雞產業的生產數據、調查技術跟即時掌握種雞、中雞、蛋雞跟雞蛋的產量、流量等資訊，讓政府跟蛋農可以及早掌握雞蛋的供應量跟價格波動的趨勢，適時的調整策略與穩定產銷秩序及價格。請問農業部接到貴部的函文後有改進嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它有來函說會來改進這方面產銷的問題，我們最近在追蹤，整個追蹤的情形我們還會在112年度的審核報告裡面列出。"],["許委員宇甄：請審計長在這個部分一定要幫我們的民眾把關。","這次審計部的審核報告在112年7月底公布，主要是談111年的審核，你們這份111年的審核報告鐵口直斷，雞蛋的產銷秩序會有問題，結果在112年8月就爆發了，有50萬資本額的一人公司──超思就可以拿到政府1.75億補助，大量進口國外雞蛋，然後搞得全臺的雞蛋價格大亂，雞蛋的產地標示不清，雞蛋的有效期限也出現問題，百姓也不曉得該不該吃蛋，甚至也吃不起蛋，而我們辛苦飼養雞蛋的蛋農也受到大家的誤會，欲哭無淚。","審計部在111年的時候審計報告就提出雞蛋的問題，但是農業部在112年還是我行我素沒有改進，所以導致我們去年想吃雞蛋的時候，吃不到蛋，等可以吃得到雞蛋的時候，又擔心都是過期的雞蛋，用納稅人的錢進口了那麼多的外國雞蛋，然後現在又要銷毀5,773萬顆的雞蛋，暴殄天物。請問審計長，對於這種無視審計報告，對不起百姓的部會，審計部會如何處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們還是會追蹤，因為當時我們說它使用的統計數據有的都過時了，要來做產銷調節，可能……我們有這樣提出，還有剛剛委員講的。這個部分農委會會痛定思痛，會好好把這些產銷的問題做一個很好的處理。"],["許委員宇甄：但是您從112年8月就提出，到現在其實也還沒處理，所以如果他們繼續不處理的話，可以移送監察院糾正或彈劾嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個案子我們已經送了。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝，謝謝審計長。","接下來我再請教一下審計長，有關109年度中央政府的總決算審核報告，各公務機關的重要審核意見當中，對於農委會辦理政策宣導未依預算法第六十二條之一編列專項經費，增列應付保留數2,640萬餘元。去年有委員詢問時，審計長是說尚未繳回，請問目前這筆經費的處理狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們把它從實現數減到保留數，目前還是掛在保留數，因為當時大院有一個決議，要有專項經費，它沒有專項經費，所以不符合大院的決議。"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前還沒繳回？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還擺在那邊。"],["許委員宇甄：對於農業部這樣一直不理審計部的意見，審計部有什麼方式可以來處理？因為是從109年到現在。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個案子是這樣，我們希望它就照大院的，有專項經費出來的時候，我們就會慢慢……還有整個政令宣導通通進到正常的大院規定的體系、行政院規定的相關體系裡面，我們才會來做後面的處理。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以現在農業部還沒繳回嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["許委員宇甄：對於這樣不理不睬的態度，審計部會怎麼做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們還是會逐步要他去面對這個問題，所以農業部現在政令宣導的部分，我們查核的結果，都已經有按規定在做。"],["許委員宇甄：但是這筆2,640萬目前還沒嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個部分還沒有給他……"],["許委員宇甄：所以審計長要繼續追查，不可以讓這樣不符合國家規定、不符合審計規定的相關情事一再地發生，謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：接下來要請教，在111年度的時候，政府有鑑於資訊科技日益普遍，要推動智慧政府的行動方案，所以國發會在107年12月27日在行政院提報了智慧政府的發展藍圖，並且經行政院院會決議，數位身分證是實現智慧政府的基礎架構，請內政部妥善規劃全面換發相關的工作，也在109年啟動全面換發的作業。內政部也在108年1月31日提報數位身分證新一代國民身分證的換發計畫，經行政院在108年6月6日原則同意辦理，計畫期程為108年到112年，總經費總共是48億9,285萬元。審計部的報告指出，新一代國民身分證換發計畫，行政院已於110年1月21日院會決定計畫暫緩實行，惟內政部迄今未依中長程個案計畫編審要點第11點規定修正或終止計畫。請問審計長，內政部是不是已經依照你們編審要點第11點規定修正或終止計畫了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：目前內政部因為要再等個資法裡面的個資委員會成立，他們會再通盤評估這個計畫是要繼續走還是有變更，因為這個牽涉資安問題，所以還蠻複雜的。"],["許委員宇甄：這個從107年就決定要做的事情，為什麼到現在還針對個資的部分，才在辦資安這樣一個事情？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們的審計意見裡面有提出，他要做這個，因為牽動很大的個資問題，所以他們當時的決定應該是沒有審慎來評估這個計畫的可行性，才會造成後面延伸的這些問題，所以這個部分，我們有送監察院。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以審計長也提到，當時資安的問題才是換發數位身分證最重要的問題，可是從107年到現在都沒有提到，所以迫使這個計畫暫時終止或修正，但是目前為止他也還沒有要修正或中止計畫。","剛剛農業部對於審計部的回應好像有點置之不理，現在內政部也是這樣，也不是很積極，請問審計長，對於這樣的狀況，我們可以有何作為？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：農業部的部分，因為我們已經看到他的政令宣導都按照行政院的規定來做了，所以這個部分農業部已經……","至於數位身分證，因牽涉的資安面以及個人的私權面向很大，社會看法各有不同，所以我們目前還是尊重內政部，但是他為了維持機器運轉，一年要花掉5、6,000萬，我們叫他要好好的做一個評估。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，我等一下也會請教審計長這個問題，但是我現在要先來請教審計長，針對數位身分證，雖然現在說是要暫緩，但是目前為止總共花了多少經費，各方的說法不一，請問審計長有沒有實際的數字？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們有瞭解過，因為他整個計畫的執行結果，他當時編了……"],["許委員宇甄：沒關係，我來跟審計長報告一下，你可以看一下我的PowerPoint，我們針對112年的決算報告來看，內政部新式換發身分證的執行計畫從109到112年，已經累積編列預算數為8億6,504萬8,000元，截至112年底累積執行數是7億1,223萬7,000元。另外，可以查到的是，109年中央印製廠編列了4億1,804萬5,000元，兩者合計總共是11億3,028萬元。今年1月初公共工程委員會跟這個得標廠商達成仲裁協議，同意以2.8億元和解，如果再加上這筆2.8億，總共會是14億1,028萬2,000元。請問您覺得這個數字正確嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分大概和我們的數字相當，唯一的差別在中央印製廠那邊是機器，它會攤提向內政部要錢。"],["許委員宇甄：我跟審計長講，我有問過中央印製廠，他們說內政部已經編列了兩年攤提的費用給他們，一年大概是4,000萬，兩年編列了8,000萬，扣掉這8,000萬，也還是支出了13億3,000萬元，剛剛審計長有提到這個計畫都已經要暫停執行了，我們每年卻還要編6,375萬9,000元。針對這個部分，說有4,000萬是攤提計畫，兩千三百多萬是營運必要的費用，可是我們現在已經跟這個數位身分證的得標廠商解約了，未來就算再重新招標，也不見得是同一個廠商得標。以這樣的狀況，印製機器可能也必須要重買，所以我們現在每年花費數千萬元去維護、保養、維運，審計長認為合理嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的看法和我們一樣，我們請內政部就這一點要做決策評估。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請審計長一定要嚴格監督內政部，針對這個部分，不可以再浪費納稅人辛苦的血汗錢。事實上，現在的經濟非常不好，結果我們居然為了這個事情還沒做就已經花了13億3,000萬元，未來每年還要編6,375萬元，真的是非常的浪費公帑！","接下來，本席還要再請教一下審計長，有關電費的問題，按照審計部111年度中央政府總決算跟附屬單位決算及綜計表報告第107頁顯示，111年度國際燃料價格受俄烏戰爭影響，導致價格飆升。台電的燃料成本大幅增加，每度電的虧損達到1.17元，也讓111年度的營運發生本期淨損2,265億2,759萬元，請問審計長是否認為台電虧損這麼多的主要原因是因為國際燃料價格飆升？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：台電主要在於火力發電，火力包括燃煤、燃氣，現在的占比還是八成以上，所以只要國際的燃油價格往上走，這對台電來講是負擔相當大。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您也認為是國際燃料價格上升？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它的因素很多元，包括……"],["許委員宇甄：這是其中一項主要的因素嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：其中一項，但是它會占大宗。"],["許委員宇甄：可是我們現在看，以112年來說，國際的燃料價格已經下降很多，每度電的成本由110年度的2.6042元上升到112年度的2.6187元，漲幅是0.056元，我想虧損已經高達2,485億，跟之前110年度的稅前虧損其實是差不多的。照理說，國際燃料價格下滑這麼多，應該台電的虧損也要相對減少，請審計長要瞭解一下這是什麼原因。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會瞭解，但是有時間差的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員宇甄的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。接下來請登記第8號范雲委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士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疫情等因素的影響導致產量的急速下滑接著又寫道未穩定產銷及因應部分通路的雞蛋短缺辦理緊急調度加工原料彈"},{"start":105.103,"end":131.568,"text":"專案進口國外雞蛋及雞蛋生產獎勵等措施：其增加雞蛋的供應量：以穩定產銷的秩序跟價格：然而雞蛋短缺的問題：到112年3月以延續一年多：仍未有效的解決：且散裝雞蛋的零售價格節節攀升：置身民怨。那我們也從右邊的這個這個養雞協會的雞蛋產地的交易行情可以看得出來"},{"start":132.353,"end":158.102,"text":"雞蛋價格從110年的10月開始攀升：到現在都還沒有回穩3月底又要漲3塊請問沈記長貴部的報告指出含請農委會也就是現在的農業部應該要持續精進彈機產業的這個生產的數據、調查技術跟即時掌握包括總機、中機、彈機跟雞蛋的產量的流量的這個資訊讓政府跟彈農可以及早掌握"},{"start":158.963,"end":169.714,"text":"雞蛋的供應量跟價格波動的趨勢適時的調整策略與穩定產銷秩序其價格?請問農業部接到貴部的函文後有改進嗎?"},{"start":171.24,"end":179.784,"text":"他有來函說他會來改進這方面的產銷的問題但是我們最近在追蹤整個追蹤的情形我們還會在112年度的損盒報告裡面"},{"start":190.579,"end":219.379,"text":"請省紀長在這個部分一定要幫我們的民眾把關那這次的省紀部的審核報告在112年7月底公佈主要是談111年的審核你們這份111年的審核報告鐵口直斷雞蛋的產銷秩序會有問題結果在112年8月就爆發了有50萬的基本額的超私藝人公司就可以拿到政府1.75億補助的這個大量進口"},{"start":219.879,"end":236.591,"text":"國外雞蛋然後搞得全台的雞蛋價格大亂雞蛋的產地標示不清雞蛋的有效期限也出現問題百姓也不曉得該不該吃蛋甚至也吃不起蛋而我們辛苦飼養雞蛋的這個蛋農也受到大家的誤會欲哭無淚"},{"start":237.532,"end":254.437,"text":"所以審計部在111年的時候審計報告就提出雞蛋的問題但是在農業部在112年還是我行我素沒有改進所以導致我們去年想吃雞蛋的時候吃不到蛋等可以吃得到雞蛋的時候又擔心都是過期的雞蛋"},{"start":255.077,"end":263.585,"text":"用納稅人的錢進口了那麼多的外國雞蛋然後現在又要銷毀5773萬顆的雞蛋暴舔天物請問審計長你對於這種無視審計報告對不起百姓的部會審計部會如何處理"},{"start":274.998,"end":283.945,"text":"我們還是會追蹤因為他當時我們說你那個統計數據你使用的統計數據有的都夠實了你要來做產銷調節可能那個我們有這樣的一個提出還有剛剛委員講的這個部分因為農委會會痛定思痛會好好的把"},{"start":300.406,"end":301.287,"text":"這一個案子我們已經送了"},{"start":316.084,"end":331.973,"text":"好謝謝謝謝你講那接下來我再請教一下沈機長有關109年度的中央政府的總決算審核報告各公務機關的重要審核意見當中對於農委會辦理政策宣導為依預算法第62條之一編列專項經費"},{"start":334.794,"end":344.711,"text":"增列應付保留數兩千六百四十萬餘元去年有委員詢問時沈記長是說尚未繳回請問現在目前這筆經費的"},{"start":346.322,"end":366.995,"text":"這個部分我們把它從實現室把它撿到保留室目前還是還在掛在保留室因為當時他沒有符合因為大院有一個決議你要有專項經費他是沒有專項經費所以這不符合大院的決議所以目前還沒繳回來那對於農業部這樣一直不理審計部的意見而且對於這種的話審計部有什麼方式可以來處理"},{"start":375.74,"end":400.021,"text":"因為是從109年到現在所以一個案子是這樣我們要希望他就照大院的有專項經費出來的時候我們就會慢慢慢慢還有整個這個政令先導的通通進到整個正常的規定的體系行政院的規定的相關的體系裡面我們才會來做一個整個後面的一個處理"},{"start":400.831,"end":423.918,"text":"好,所以現在農業部還沒繳回嗎?所以審計部對於這樣不理不睬的態度啊,審計部會怎麼做?我們還是會逐步啊,要他還是逐步要去面對這個問題所以他現在啊,農業部已經啊,現在正應先導的部分啊他現在我們查核的結果啊,都已經按規定,都有按規定在做"},{"start":424.338,"end":437.322,"text":"但是這比六千、兩千六百四十萬目前還沒嘛所以請審計長要繼續追查不可以讓這樣子的一個不符合國家規定的不符合你們審計規定的相關的形式一再的發生請審議長好 謝謝"},{"start":439.443,"end":461.371,"text":"那接下來也要請教的就是有關這個我們在111年度的時候就是政府有鑒於資訊科技日益普遍要推動智慧政府的這個行動方案那所以這個國發會在107年12月27號在行政院提報了智慧政府的發展藍圖並且經行政院院會決議數位身份證"},{"start":462.111,"end":480.148,"text":"是實現智慧政府的基礎架構請內政部妥善規劃全面換發相關的工作也在109年啟動全面換發的作業那內政部也在108年1月31號提報數位身份證新一代國民身份證的換發計劃經行政院在108年6月6號原則同意辦理計劃其成為108年到112年"},{"start":488.516,"end":496.863,"text":"總經費總共是48億9285萬元。審計部的報告指出新一代的國民身份證換發計劃行政院已於110年1月21日院會決定計劃暫緩實行。"},{"start":504.051,"end":523.005,"text":"內政部迄今未依中長城個案計劃編審要點第11點的規定修正或終止計劃請問沈經長內政部是不是已經依照你們編審要點的第11條的規定修正或終止計劃了目前內政部因為要在等整個"},{"start":524.153,"end":538.205,"text":"那個購租法裡面的購租委員會成立他們會整個在通盤評估這個計畫是繼續走還是有所變更所以這個大概因為這受到租安問題所以還蠻"},{"start":540.687,"end":567.062,"text":"這個從107年就決定要做的事情為什麼到現在還針對個資的部分自然現在才在辦理這樣子的一個事情我們的審計意見裡面有提出因為你要做這個因為牽動很大的個資問題所以他們在當時的決定應該是沒有損失來評估這個計畫的可行性所以造成了後面的延伸了這些問題所以我們"},{"start":568.58,"end":570.404,"text":"這個部分我們有送監察院"},{"start":571.229,"end":599.6,"text":"對,所以沈記長也提到嘛就是當時因為資安的問題才是換發這個我們數位身份證最重要的問題可是從107年到現在都沒有提到所以迫使這個計畫暫時的這個終止或者是修正嘛但是呢目前為止他也還沒有要修正或終止的一個計畫所以剛剛農業部也是對於沈記部的這個回應好像有點置之不理"},{"start":600.134,"end":626.221,"text":"那現在內政部也是這樣也不是很積極那請問沈記長對於這樣的狀況我們可以有何作為農業部的部分因為他已經我們看到他的整個政令先導都按照行政院的規定來做了所以這個部分農業部已經那這個因為數位申請證簽售的租安面還有個私錢個人的私錢那個面向"},{"start":626.741,"end":641.955,"text":"很大那個社會啊看法各有不同所以我們目前還是尊重內政部但是他的維持那個機器運轉啊一年要花掉五六千億啊這個我們叫他要好好的做一個評估"},{"start":643.135,"end":665.248,"text":"針對這個部分我等一下也會請教這個沈記長這個問題但是我現在要先來請教沈記長針對數位身份證的這個總共目前為止雖然開始現在說是要暫緩但是總共花了多少的經費各方的說法不一那請問沈記長有沒有實際的數字這個部分我們有了解過因為他整個計畫整個組成的結果他當時編了"},{"start":672.827,"end":685.214,"text":"抱歉他當時編了整個我來跟這個沈記長報告一下這一次你可以看一下我的PowerPoint就是我們針對112年的決算報告來看內政部的這個新式換發身份證的執行計畫到109到112年已經累積編列預算數為8億6504萬8千元截至112年底累積執行數是7億1223萬7千元"},{"start":700.902,"end":727.977,"text":"另外可以查到的是一百零九年中央印製廠編列了四億一千八百零四萬五千元兩者合計總共是十一萬三千零二十八元那今年的一月初公共工程委員會跟我們的這個得標廠商呢達成仲裁的協議同意以二點八億元來和解若再加上這筆二點八億的話總共會是十四億一千零二十八萬兩千元請問這個數字您覺得正確嗎"},{"start":730.687,"end":737.132,"text":"這個部分大概和我們的數字相當唯一的中央醫術廠那邊他是機器他會貪到相對資本要錢"},{"start":741.089,"end":768.805,"text":"我跟這個沈基長來講就是他現在我也有問過中央印製廠他們說內政部已經編列了兩年攤提的費用給他們一年大概是四千萬兩年編列了八千萬扣掉這八千萬也還是支出了十三億三千萬元所以剛剛還有提到剛剛沈基長有提到的這個都已經要暫停執行的這個計劃了我們每年卻要編六千三百七十五萬九千元"},{"start":769.901,"end":794.328,"text":"所以針對這個部分他是說有4000萬是攤提計劃2300多萬是我們的營運費必要的費用可是我們現在已經跟這個數位身份證的得標廠商解約了未來就算再重新招標也不見得是同一個廠商得標那以這樣的狀況硬製機器也可能必須要重買所以我們現在每年花費數千萬元去維護保養維運這個契機沈議長認為合理嗎"},{"start":800.063,"end":813.938,"text":"委員都看我和我們一樣我們現在請那個內政部啊做這一點啊要做一個正確的那個節奏評估好請審議長一定要嚴格的監督內政部針對這個部分不可以再浪費我們這個納稅人的這個"},{"start":816.43,"end":842.99,"text":"這個辛苦的這個血汗錢因為事實上現在的經濟非常的不好那結果我們居然為了這個事情還沒做就已經花了13億3千萬元了未來每年還要編6千3百75萬元真的是非常的浪費公帑喔那接下來呢針對這個部分呃本期還要請教一下省議長有關電費的問題喔就是按照省紀部111年度的中央政府的這個"},{"start":844.96,"end":862.739,"text":"總決算跟附屬單位的決算跟中計表的報告第1107頁顯示111年度的國際的燃料價格受惡物戰爭的影響導致我們的價格飆升那台灣這個台電的燃料成本大幅的增加那每度電的虧損達到1.17元"},{"start":865.862,"end":880.936,"text":"也讓我們一百一十一年度的營運發生成本本期競損兩千兩百六十五億兩千七百五十九萬元沈警長是否認為臺電虧損這麼多主要的原因是因為國際燃料價格飆升請問沈警長"},{"start":882.822,"end":908.449,"text":"這個台電在因為它的主要在火力發電火力包燃煤燃氣它的現在的占比還是八成以上所以主要國際的燃油價格往上走這對台電來講是負擔相當大所以您認為也是國際燃料價格的上升它的因素很多元包括了這其中一項主要的因素嗎但是它會占大宗"},{"start":909.224,"end":924.675,"text":"好,可是我們現在看喔雖然國際的這個以112年來說國際的燃料價格已經下降很多喔好,從每度電的成本由110年度的2.6042元上升到112年度的2.680元上升到2.680元上升到2.680元上升到2.680元"},{"start":939.002,"end":954.326,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcec2336f0b0f73a3ada4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6dbf84893d556ddb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:32:16 - 10:47:43","影片長度":"00:15:27","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":927,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:47:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:32:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時32分）主席，有請陳瑞敏審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：審計長好。審計長，根據你這個年度決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見，我個人對審計意見還有一些意見，你在分析上確實是有點到一些問題，但是意見上仍有不足之處，所以有一些問題想要就教於您。特別是在本席長期以來一直持續關心的社會住宅問題當中，您有特別提到，以社會住宅來說的話，我們蔡總統在任內的努力，到目前為止，已經有12萬7,924戶，但是即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話，預計在整個住宅市場當中占有1.5%，那後續的部分，我們的總統當選人賴清德先生基本上也提出一個高達25萬戶的目標，如果累計完成25萬戶的話，預計大概可以超過3%。但是其他還有包租代管的部分，在這25萬戶的情況底下，累計目標應該可以達到6%，這個情況已經超過5%。為什麼我要強調這個部分呢？這是一個政策的目標，而這個政策目標明顯是呼應當年一些民間團體的訴求，希望在住宅正義的部分，與社會住宅相關的這個供給數能夠超過5%，這個5%的目標定了之後，後面就是執行的狀況，但是執行的部分如何，審計部就扮演一個非常重要的角色。","為什麼社會住宅現在會如此重要？大家之所以會如此關注有一個很重要的原因，就是一來感覺上速度沒有我們所想像、期待的那麼快，也就是到目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬，加上規劃中的據說有十二萬多，但是為什麼有這種急迫感，就是因為外在環境的一些變化。外在環境的變化就是我們現在的房租物價指數節節攀升，創下歷史新高，而且我們的房價所得比也是節節攀升，也是創下歷史新高，一個是105.37%，一個是到了9.61倍，再加上房貸負擔率也是攀升，超過4成。但是相對而言，我們社會住宅的中籤率大約在15%至20%之間。","中籤率偏低代表什麼？就是供不應求。在供不應求的情況底下，你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅的現金收支推估，明顯看得出來，內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差，從100年到172年，你推估的時間算非常之長，而落差的幅度，你們認為是─2,966億，而內政部認為會有賸餘309億，兩個部會之間相差之多，超過3,000億以上。可是審計部在住都中心的規劃計畫當中，你們認為高估了租金的收入，可是問題是社會住宅所考慮到的除了營建成本跟興建成本之外，它本身有一定程度的政策目標存在，對不對？政策目標存在，如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分，你又點出一個部分，說要內政部研擬所謂合理的、可負擔的租金分級收費原則，看起來又是點到為止，那就是積極面的部分從社會住宅面向，其實資金是一個很大的方向。","在昨天的財政委員會當中，內政部在我們質詢時提出了所謂要再提供、創造一個1兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性，來解決它資金上的需求，我不曉得審計長的看法怎麼樣。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的，我們要想盡辦法來把它執行，我們對租金、收租的推估也只是提醒，要他稍微注意一下，至於怎麼說或者用什麼方法，因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅可住……"],["郭委員國文：總體來說是資金的部分、財務面向的問題，財務面向的部分，你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足，營運不資金不足，你就點到這邊而已，就沒有其他的建議。也就是說，其實就一個社會住宅興建的部分，資金當然是一個面向，資金的面向可以透過舉債、增加預算或者是其他的方式，在審計部的審計意見當中都付之闕如，沒有看見嘛！也就是說，第一個，是不是用舉債的方式？第二個，你是審計相關的部會，也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題存在，依照目前來看，臺灣其實是不缺資金啦！民間的資金非常之多，甚至有些資金因為過剩而跑到海外去投資，特別是壽險基金的部分，是不是有效性的可以引導壽險基金走入社會住宅的市場當中？這個都是可能性啊！我就不曉得為什麼這個部分審計長都沒有注意到，也沒有提到這個審計意見。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的，這個我們沒有……"],["郭委員國文：更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性，也就是住都中心的這67億預算當中，已經是最高的情況底下，與其你把它當作預算，是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應？也就是把它換算成3%，你就可以舉債到2,000多億，就可以迎刃化解它資金面的財務問題啊！審計長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分委員的意見我們尊重，但是我們沒有做這一部分，我們回去會做這方面的評估。"],["郭委員國文：對，本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實。除了這個資金面向之外還有一個面向，就是時間成本。什麼是時間成本呢？就是實務當中你們要去深刻的理解，為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因，有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得。土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難？一來就是剩餘土地適合的土地空間不多，二來還有使用分區的問題，一旦使用分區出現問題的時候，你還要走用地變更，又要一段時間，所以它的時間當然會拖長，因此站在審計單位，你應該要求其他單位比如說擁有土地、持有較多的單位在哪裡？一來是國有財產署，二來就是台糖，三來就是軍方，大概是這三個單位當中，有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家總體的社會住宅政策？這就是你的職責所在啊！審計長，我說得對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們也發現國有地裡面還有107處閒置在那裡，所以委員這樣子講，我們會就這個部分加強提供審核意見。"],["郭委員國文：你都知道有107處閒置空間在那邊，也就是如同國有財產署現在管理的這些官舍、廳舍閒置不用的，有沒有可能予以活化，或者作為社會住宅的土地空間？有沒有可能？這個沒有去思考嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員這一個意見很好，我們會提供給……"],["郭委員國文：可以納入你的審計意見當中吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個部分就是土地取得，興建社會住宅的部分也可以思考多元化的可能啊！什麼是多元化的可能？現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：那它可以用的方式是什麼？就是設定地上權嘛，對不對？那有沒有可能創造地上權屋的一種方式，也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊！方法之一啊！對不對？或者在設定地上權的方式之外，以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT案例，而且速度非常之快，不到3年就已經興建完成，為什麼在你的審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議？政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的思考很多元，我們會照委員的意見評估以後，提出我們的審核意見。"],["郭委員國文：對。這些具體的內容，我一五一十告訴你，就資金的面向、財務的面向，以及土地的因素，還有時間成本的考慮當中具體擬出來，提出一個可以操作的建議方式，要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標。我剛剛為什麼一開始就對你提政策目標？就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待嘛！如果就常態性的租屋者的需求，在臺灣是有超過80萬以上耶！常態性的需求當中為什麼需要？因為我們社會住宅不但是中籤率低，而且入住的時間還非常有限，如果不是弱勢者的話，頂多住3年，再加3年，也就是頂多6年而已。就國外的例子當中，是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸！對不對？如果社會住宅要推到真正符合一個政策目標的話，還不在於供給量的5%或6%而已，而是長期可以供給這些相對弱勢，而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求，才是真正的政策目標。我覺得，審計長你應該在內心當中要有一種這種政策目標啦！我這樣說，你的看法如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員剛剛說的對社會住宅的研究非常深入，我們會照委員的意見來評估。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩儘可能採用這些建議，多給這些相關部會一點壓力，然後進行日後持續性的審計，好不好？審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：你還特別提到一個問題，也就是關於企業盈餘占GDP比例的部分，在110年度決算審計報告中，你針對行政院重要的審核意見表示受僱者占GDP比例創10年的新低嘛！對不對？10年的新低是43.03%，但是企業盈餘部分的占比卻逐漸攀升；也就是說，在相關數字當中，受僱者的報酬占GDP的比例是從45.77%，一直滑落到43.03%，然後另外一個部分，企業的盈餘占GDP比是31.82%，一直逐漸攀升到36.53%，這個告訴我們什麼？就是貧富差距的一個根本原因嘛！","最近有兩則新聞，其中一則是臺灣億萬富豪有11萬人，持有財產32萬兆，累積億萬財富的有69%都是55歲以上，當然這不包括本人啦！但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款，是零存族，有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成他沉重的經濟壓力。當要解釋這一個圖表的時候，我衍生做一個主要國家的比較，受僱者報酬的GDP占比我們剛剛看到的是百分之四十三點幾，數字上尾數有一些差異，沒有什麼關係。但是日本是占多少？日本是占過一半，52.6%，美國也是52.2%，南韓52.2%，三個國家都是超過一半，都是52%以上，唯獨臺灣是43%。","好，你看盈餘占GDP的比例，我們剛好相反，反而我們最高，臺灣是34.4%，美國是24.6%，南韓是22%，日本是13.1%，對不對？你可以看到這種結構性的因素。以前我們也花了很多時間做一些努力，你做這些統計報告的過程中就可以看得出來，企業越來越賺錢，但是整個經濟成果並沒有達到經濟學所謂下滲的效果，沒有下滲的結果，貧富差距就越來越大。審計長，您難道只有做這些統計報告而已，沒有提出任何具體的政策建議，要求其他相關部會做一些改善嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，針對所得不均、貧富不均，我們開始做專案調查，也努力持續多年的調查。"],["郭委員國文：專案調查之後有沒有什麼專案的建議、政策或要求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們今年會提出來。"],["郭委員國文：今年什麼時候？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：今年我在決算報告……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼我問你的時候才說會提出來？這個現象已經持續很久了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：審核報告本來就有列入專案調查。"],["郭委員國文：你再重複一次，今年幾月的時候會提出來？這跟低薪……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我固定7月底以前要送審核報告。"],["郭委員國文：7月底是全部，地方也都會出來，對不對？你7月底會有具體的、可操作的……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會。"],["郭委員國文：要有效的、可以改善的，我會好好看。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：最後一分鐘的時間我再跟你講，其實我們不是完全沒有努力，蔡政府過去8年來都有調整基本工資，而調整基本工資在整個築底推高的層面，相對是讓比較屬於低薪階級的薪資結構有部分改善，但是最關鍵是中階，也就是說，勞動所得在中階的部分影響相對比較少。過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪抵稅，但當初的法令居然用很高的失業率作為標準，根本沒有辦法達成，徒有條文。而且我們也針對整個企業的盈餘進行課稅，也做過這樣的努力，但是實際上也是好到股東，沒有好到勞工，我們在制度上做了這些努力卻沒有達到實質的效果。","請審計長好好思考一下，這個報告好好寫。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會很認真的查。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員國文詢問，也謝謝陳審計長備詢。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start":104.127,"end":117.61,"text":"但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分如何?當然省紀部就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在"},{"start":118.618,"end":142.758,"text":"之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼這種急迫感是一種外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高"},{"start":146.221,"end":175.056,"text":"而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價利率有時間高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求"},{"start":175.902,"end":197.378,"text":"那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億"},{"start":202.011,"end":228.171,"text":"而內政部認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估的這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對"},{"start":229.031,"end":255.992,"text":"那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部沿你所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了"},{"start":256.525,"end":268.294,"text":"所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不知道沈記長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":269.922,"end":293.842,"text":"如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要讓民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說資金的部分財務面向的問題"},{"start":298.41,"end":324.936,"text":"那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你審計部的這個審計意見當中都付之確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式"},{"start":325.748,"end":351.599,"text":"第二個你也是審計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩而跑到海外軍事投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性"},{"start":352.859,"end":377.789,"text":"我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是說把它換算成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊"},{"start":379.688,"end":400.366,"text":"市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做這方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本"},{"start":401.345,"end":417.804,"text":"什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢"},{"start":418.807,"end":439.152,"text":"適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休講擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛"},{"start":440.987,"end":456.219,"text":"二來嘛就是台台嘛三來嘛就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊 沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊 閒住在那裡"},{"start":460.983,"end":482.111,"text":"你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些觀設、聽設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎"},{"start":484.502,"end":507.439,"text":"委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?"},{"start":508.779,"end":533.559,"text":"設定地上全嗎?那有沒有可能創造地上全屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊?方法之一啊?對不對?或者還有包括是什麼?就是說設定這種地上全的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完成"},{"start":535.322,"end":562.495,"text":"那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的審核意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體"},{"start":564.434,"end":592.197,"text":"你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低"},{"start":593.137,"end":602.126,"text":"而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已"},{"start":603.41,"end":631.48,"text":"就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的"},{"start":633.481,"end":654.105,"text":"剛剛的研究對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力然後進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個"},{"start":658.042,"end":669.555,"text":"銀魚的部分占的GDP比例你在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?"},{"start":671.109,"end":680.033,"text":"此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53%但是43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03"},{"start":695.563,"end":701.891,"text":"然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼"},{"start":705.612,"end":731.701,"text":"就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲"},{"start":733.257,"end":759.768,"text":"有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成了沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少"},{"start":760.868,"end":781.583,"text":"日本是占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半了都是52%以上唯獨台灣啊是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分呢我們台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本呢是13.1%"},{"start":788.738,"end":809.83,"text":"那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力啊你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢嘛但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果嘛沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大嘛"},{"start":810.851,"end":826.987,"text":"局長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查"},{"start":828.087,"end":851.163,"text":"專案調查之外有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現在已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定7月底以前要送審核報告對7月底是全部啦地方也都會出來嘛對不對你的7月底會有具體的喔"},{"start":852.003,"end":881.076,"text":"可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善"},{"start":882.13,"end":910.672,"text":"但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上"},{"start":912.233,"end":915.037,"text":"也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?"}]}},{"id":"150837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcd4582d8790757516da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a667518d6a02a6d9265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:16:24 - 10:31:55","影片長度":"00:15:31","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":931,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:31:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:16:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時16分）謝謝院長，我們請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：審計長好。審計長，我就直接進入主題，我們在前瞻第3期中編列將近79億的綠能建設預算，要達到的目標包含電網提升、能源轉型，還有綠能技術建設開發等，而這些目標包含有台電的經營效能，剛好這個都是本席過去一再質疑我們台電年年虧損與政府能源政策失當的原因。現在我們看到電價在漲，今年我們還繼續要補助台電1,000億，加上經濟部王美花部長也證實我們再生能源發電占比達20%的這個政策目標在2025年顯然沒有辦法達成，現在預估要到2026年10月才能夠達成，因此我們很明顯的可以看出來，前瞻計畫的綠能建設花費到現在還是看不到有顯著的效益！","對於台電，政府之前連續二年透過預算先後編列經費補助了台電共2,500億，其實這2,500億我認為也是一種變相的特別預算，更不用說我們在疫後特別預算中也編列了500億來補助台電。所以本席要請問審計長，第一，預算法第八十三條關於特別預算編列的規定，對於用這些變相的特別預算去補助台電，這樣是合理的嗎？這樣持續的補助，台電的虧損卻還是繼續的擴大，審計長，您認為這樣的變相補助是否應該要停止？請審計長先回答。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是希望台電要強化經營體質，加強開源節流啦，因為台電的虧損原因多端，原因有很多，第一個，電價的售電電價不是都低於成本，第二個，它的負債利息也很高，電網韌性也拆除了很多，造成資本支出的損失，所以它有很多要去強化經營管理的地方。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，您剛才也提到因為原物料上漲以及其他諸多的原因，但是我在總質詢時也問過行政院陳院長，對於台電連年虧損到底什麼時候才能夠停止，如果能源政策不加以修正的話，是不是我們每年還是會看到台電的赤字，還是連年虧損，都要靠我們編列相關預算去做補助？","看到這樣的情況，站在審計部的立場，你要如何對台電做出建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為剛剛有講嘛，如果它的售價低於成本，它想要賺錢就很難，所以……"],["林委員思銘：為什麼售價會低於成本呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當然是原因很多，原因很多……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個綠能政策……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：包括燃料採購策略是怎麼樣，還有怎麼樣管理等等，都很多，也有剛剛講的綠能這方面，但是綠能現在是一個趨勢，因為現在是要往減碳的方向來走，氣候變遷很厲害，所以這個……"],["林委員思銘：審計長，當然綠能是現在全世界各國都在努力的目標啦，剛剛我們就講到說，對於台電，在預算的整個編列上，我們看到用了很多特別預算連年在補助它，到底什麼時候能夠停止，我想站在審計部的立場，您要做出中肯的建議，做出建言啦！好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們對台電的這個部分會加強，給它一些意見。"],["林委員思銘：是。另外剛才有好多位委員都一直提到預算法第八十三條的規定，當然這一次也有很多委員提案要刪除第四款「不定期或數年一次之重大政事」的規定，希望我們特別預算未來在編列時要儘量避免以所謂「重大政事」這樣的情形來作為特別預算編列的一個項目，所以我想請教審計長，您贊不贊成將預算第法八十三條第四款所規定的「不定期或數年一次之重大政事」予以刪除？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我剛剛非常同意委員說的「儘量避免」，所以要用這一款就必須要儘量慎重。"],["林委員思銘：儘量慎重？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：慎重，要做好很多的計畫評估，並且要落實，就是編列完了以後要落實，好好的去執行。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，儘量避免我們都知道，但是常常就是沒有辦法避免。我們看到這幾年來政府常常利用這一款來編列所謂的特別預算，所以我才會問你，委員們認為這一條好像常常被用來作為政府舉債的一個非常重要的依據，因為你講「重大政事」，但「重大政事」這四個字是一個很不確定的法律概念，到底什麼情形之下符合叫做「重大政事」？我想這個部分就會讓我們執政的政府有一個很大的空間用這一款來編列特別預算，所以您贊不贊成這一款應該予以刪除，讓政府的財政紀律能夠走向正常化、常態化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要用這一款，大部分都會訂特別條例，訂了特別條例都會送到大院來審議，所以這個是不是重大，大院可以來評估、來看，所以這一條主要是在執行方面可能要注意，在編列後的執行方面要注意。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，現在我是問你的意見啦，因為本院已經有好多位委員建議要刪除，那您的看法呢？其實我一直強調這是一個很不確定的法律概念，您剛才也提到要用這一款來編列特別預算要很審慎，要符合預算科目的項目，所謂的重大建設，但是在法律上這是一個很不確定的法律概念，所以我才會就教您，您贊不贊成把它刪除呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們從90年到現在編了40個特別預算，裡面用到這一款的將近一半，所以用這一款的機會很多，但我還是比較偏向慎重，因為這對國家來說是多了一個編預算的方式，所以你說……"],["林委員思銘：但是您認不認為……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要把它廢除，我也……"],["林委員思銘：您認不認為常用這一款來編列特別預算是破壞我們的財政紀律？把它常態化就是在破壞財政紀律。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：只要我們的計畫所產生的效益大於我們的預算規模。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們講說，您剛才也提到從過去以來有四十幾次編列特別預算嘛，但是您有沒有去審計過這四十幾件每一件都是符合這個條款的預算編列？您有沒有做出審計過？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們審計是站在後端，是依照立法院通過的預算，還有它做的決議來做審計……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以您來做最後的建議嘛，提出建議嘛。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會對他執行的效能提出建議。"],["林委員思銘：對，你會提出建議嘛，那你認為這四十幾件都符合它的執行效益嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：效能我們都會追，到現在前瞻的各項效能，我們都還在追。"],["林委員思銘：好，我想這個議題你也不敢很正面的答復我，但是我想我們立法院有好多位立委都已經提出刪除的建議，我想為了讓我們的財政紀律能夠更好、更常態化，不要動輒用這一條款來編列特別預算而破壞我們的財政紀律，審計長還是要針對過去運用這個項目來編列特別預算的部分做一個中肯的建議，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好。第二個問題再請教，關於111年總決算審核的部分，審計部就數位身分證的換發指出，因為契約暫停執行，而須支付逾1.3億元給中央印製廠，但根據內政部長林右昌在上個月表示，經過調解後，還須另外支付給廠商的調解金額壓在2億8,000萬上下，林部長甚至還說2億多元已經是最好的結果。數位身分證從執行面也好，或者是從立法面也好，從頭到尾就是政府沒有做完善的評估與準備，導致我們的民眾還沒能拿到新式的證件之前，就必須掏腰包來幫助政府善後，可以說是全世界最貴而且還是拿不到的身分證。所以本席想請問審計長，數位身分證的政策失敗，並且要支付這麼高額的賠償金，這筆帳是要誰來買單？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們有提出審核意見，因為他未審視，就如委員所提的，因為在開始的時候沒有審慎評估計畫的可行性，所以後來採購發生了一些問題，因為你的計畫停了，這會有違約，也增加了一些經費，我們也提出了……"],["林委員思銘：審計長，因為時間的關係，那您告訴我，最後您的審核意見是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們送請監察院……"],["林委員思銘：移送監察院來核處嘛？是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員思銘：好。另外，我們覺得更離譜的是，我們已經採購的機器，林右昌部長說可能因為沒有辦法密集使用，但仍持續編列6,357萬元的預算，以支付印製廠設備暫停執行的必要費用。請問審計部是否有去督核這些花費是否合當，以及這些機器後續到底要如何處理，就繼續編列這些機器的維護費用，但是卻擺著不用，審計部是否有去查核、追究相關的責任，並再提出新的審核報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分我們也有提出來預警他，這個要一直維護，到底最後會用到嗎？因為它的維護一年也花掉不少錢，所以這個就要評估……"],["林委員思銘：6,357萬，民脂民膏，一年要花這麼多錢，擺在那邊沒有用……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們就叫他要好好的評估一下，因為做一個決策要想到，這個如果以後不用了，或者是以後用不到，或者效能變了，這些都要考量，所以要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢？我們有提出相關的審核意見給內政部。"],["林委員思銘：有沒有追究相關的責任？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分因為已經提供到監察院，監察院會做……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個部分也有移請監察院做核處了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：監察院正在瞭解之中。"],["林委員思銘：正在瞭解、調查了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員思銘：好。我再請問審計長，交通部路政及道安司在上個月公布，112年交通死亡人數為3,023人，這次的審核報告提到僅比110年的3,085人減少大概62個人，但是我們看到交通事故總計有40萬2,926件，則是較前年增加了2萬7,082件，整體的事故還有受傷人數皆不減反增，所以我想請問審計長，政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上，希望能夠提高交通安全，但是交通部對於這個所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標，並沒有做到它所希望達到年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準。在這次的審計報告中也提到，全國市區道路仍有超過三分之一的人行道淨寬不足最低的標準。這次在審計報告第12頁也提到，全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化，像我們新竹、竹北、高鐵特區這些新興區域還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化，所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列入考核的範圍之內？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核，我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查，也會列到112年度的審核報告，我們目前正在做。"],["林委員思銘：是，我想對於電纜地下化還有人行道的寬度不足這些部分，我們還是希望審計部要持續的考核各個地方政府，也要責成交通部，為了改善我們的交通，對這幾個部分一定要儘速、趕快來做，以上，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員給我們這麼好的意見。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員思銘的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第6號郭委員國文詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附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我您的審核意見最後是什麼"},{"start":674.216,"end":689.442,"text":"我們送去監察院就移送監察院來何處嗎對是不是好那另外我們覺得更離譜的是我們已經採購的機器林佑昌部長說可能因為沒有辦法密集使用"},{"start":690.242,"end":712.117,"text":"但仍持續編列6357萬元的預算：以支付印製廠設備暫停執行的必要費用。請問省紀部是否有去督核這樣的費用花費是否合當：以及這些機器後續到底要如何處理：就繼續編列這些機器的維護費用：但是卻擺著不用。"},{"start":712.998,"end":719.859,"text":"省紀部你是否有去查核﹐追究相關責任﹐並再提出新的審核報告?"},{"start":721.188,"end":744.8,"text":"這個部分我們也有提出來也有意見他你這個要一直維護到底最後的使用會用到嗎?因為他的維護一年也花掉不少錢所以這個又添357萬民脂民膏一年要花這麼多錢我們就叫他好好的評估一下因為要"},{"start":745.64,"end":772.26,"text":"做一個決策要想到說這個如果以後不用了或者是以後用不到了或者效能變了這些都要考量所以你要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢我們就提出相關的審核意見給內政部那有沒有追究相關的責任這個部分因為已經提供到監察院因為這個監察院不會做所以這個部分也是有提請監察院做何處"},{"start":775.522,"end":799.192,"text":"監察院正在了解之中正在了解調查所以我再請問這個審議長就是我們交通部路政及道政司及道安司在上個月有公布112年我們這個交通死亡人數為3023人那上個月這次的審核報告提到的僅比我們這個"},{"start":801.513,"end":825.489,"text":"一百一十年的三千零八十五人減少大概六十二個人但是我們看到交通事故總計有四十萬兩千九百二十六件則是較前年增加了兩萬七千零八十二件那麼整體的事故還有傷亡人數受傷人數皆不減反增所以我想這個"},{"start":830.645,"end":855.734,"text":"請問我們陳記長政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上希望能夠提高交通安全但我們又看不到交通部這種有對於我們所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標並沒有做到測他所希望達到的年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準"},{"start":857.074,"end":866.365,"text":"我們在這次的審計報告中也提到全國市區道路仍有超過三分之一的人行道徑寬是不足最低最低的標準"},{"start":867.256,"end":887.992,"text":"我們這次在審計報告第12頁也提到全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化像我們新竹竹北高鐵特區這些新興區域就是還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列為考核的範圍之內"},{"start":889.78,"end":918.163,"text":"這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查我們會列到112年度的審核報告現在目前正在做我想這個對於我們電纜地下化這一個部分還有我們人行道的寬度不足這部分我們還是希望省紀部要持續的考核我們各個地方政府也要責成交通部"},{"start":918.763,"end":921.967,"text":"我們為了改善我們的交通這幾個部分一定要盡"}]}},{"id":"150836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcdfe2713a715715ffda4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6904b1091563e2b0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:01:36 - 10:16:12","影片長度":"00:14:36","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":876,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:16:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T10:01:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時1分）好，謝謝主席，有請審計長，謝謝。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，審計長早安。這是第一次有機會跟審計長做交流，之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過，關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告，可以讓行政單位更加認真看待，所以在審計部的報告裡面，我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作，但是時間有限，我們趕快來看一下審計部的相關報告。","在你們的報告當中，關於「少子女化及其衍生問題因應對策」，我在投影片上面框紅色的是你們寫到少子女化衍生的對策，其中你們放在第一個的叫做「提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀」。審計長，我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是希望能夠有家庭觀念，大家能夠結婚，我們希望多多結婚，小孩就有機會多生一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：審計長，你覺得真的只有結婚才能生小孩嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般……"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是說把少子化的責任歸咎在大家不想結婚？如果我們讓一般民眾看到這個報告，您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人，他們看到這件事情，心裡面的感受是如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是多面向，因為結婚了有生小孩的機會，我們是多面向，每一個面向我們都要去考慮，我剛剛講過，為了要解決這個錯綜複雜的問題，行政院已經請國科會做實證分析。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我們剛剛也聽到，在前面委員的詢問當中，你也提到相關的分析，可是我要再一次提醒，在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程中，我要再一次強調，同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場：基本上育兒的責任，絕對不會只是母親的責任或是少子化跟婚姻之間的關係，我覺得都還有需要辯證、討論的地方。但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行，我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是不要把這兩件事情綁在一起的、讓人覺得很保守的報告，我們相信也非常非常期待好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我們時間有限，我先簡單的提醒一下，但是我們後續還是要看到、還是要肯定審計部提到關於少子化，你們提到依社家署補助辦理建構零到2歲兒童社區公共托育計畫，你們說執行效率不彰，你們也提到了公共化教保服務跟強化準公共機制供需失衡，以及沒有提供延長照顧的服務和教保服務人力結構不符合規定，這確實是我們目前在第一線蒐集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場，大家在照顧小孩或者是決定要不要生養小孩，還是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力，這個部分確實是很多人的考量，所以我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正，我們覺得很重要，但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關，這個部分可否請您留意一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會追蹤改善情形。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。另外，關於勞動部，你們剛剛有提到一部分，但是我們要鄭重的建議一個很重要的事情，其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求，還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分，其實有很多事情都要做，包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作、彈性工時，我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的，所以我們希望不是口號，如同您剛剛說的，會持續緊盯。","接下來，我們來看一下關於運動的部分，我們在你們的報告裡面看到了體育業務的糾正，其中你們提到了足球六年計畫，不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象？你們說：推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標，要持續精進國家隊的組訓參賽，還有輔導企業球隊經營。我想要問一下，您覺得所謂世界排名的目標，放在這麼前面，您的想法是什麼？為什麼會以這個為目標？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們看到體育署有把這個列為目標，我們所有審計的依據，都會根據這個計畫，即他們定的計畫指標對他們給予提醒。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，也就是說，當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署認為，增進國家排名是主要目標，那我們就來看看，目前世界排名他們並沒有提升；企業球隊目前都是屬地經營，而且目前在臺灣屬地經營的、球隊經營的只有一隊。如果要精進所謂國家隊的這些目標，我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼：好，我們有一個六年足球計畫，其實比起世界排名，我們在基層或是在民間，甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員，還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上，我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題，我這邊務必要跟審計長分享，到底足球推動資源的投入，是不是真的花在刀口上，是我們要更關心的。","我們看到有一個足球六年計畫，甚至針對這個足球六年計畫，民間非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會，還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境，包括表達他們不滿的聲音。不知道這個檢討報告審計長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過？為什麼要加入民間的聲音？這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們看到民間有一些聲音出來，所以我們對這個正在瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，正在瞭解。所以你手上有相關的報告嗎？關於這個民間檢討的聲音。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我們辦公室有，我們後續提供給你們參考。但我要說一下，為什麼這件事情這麼、這麼的重要，體育署在這個計畫裡面，他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI，這個好像一般行政機關很容易做，他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情，他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的狀態，我暫且不要說它是假象，怎麼說呢？因為我們看到另外一個狀況，為了衝球隊參賽數量的KPI，甚至他們有的學校是用籃球隊、田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽，拿到相關的補助，以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算。可是回頭看，一個政府部門執行了六年的足球計畫，它的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來，更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享了，所有民間自主投入的基層資源，從家長到小孩，到教練到很多的企業，大家都很努力。基層自立自強，可是到最後我們看到這個國家的足球六年發展計畫，卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫，他們如何看待手上這些經費？還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展，但是社區俱樂部這件事情，卻沒有在相關體育署的政策視野發展當中，這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們整個的審計是以它的成效來看，它跑偏了，我們一定會給它意見。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。可是如果不在你們的認知當中，或是不在他們的政策規劃當中，確實如同您說的，不在你們的審計對象當中，所以我們要再次強調，目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底，我這邊要強烈拜託審計部，在112年度的審計報告當中，要持續關注相關的足球六年發展計畫，或者是其他的體育署相關足球發展計畫，以上這個部分可不可以請審計長留意一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會提出審核意見，優先提供給委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝審計長。","我們來看下一個。我們看到審計部報告還提到另外一個，這是我們辦公室一直以來都非常、非常關心的，而且我們不只關心，還做了非常多的事，也就是兒少自殺死亡率這件事。不知道審計長有沒有看過類似新聞，知不知道目前在民間、在學校所發生的這個現象？關於兒少自殺率逐年提升這件事？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們在審核報告也有提出來這樣的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們看到你們在衛福部的審核報告裡提到關於兒少自殺，你們說，國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標，且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重；你們還說，自殺通報個案數逐年增加，自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重。到目前為止，自殺防治法沒有規定、擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施。這是你們提出的問題，對嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我先要謝謝審計部認真的工作。我要說的是，你們提出的相關問題都很棒，因為對我們來說，讓孩子們安心長大的環境真的不只是學校老師的責任，也不是單一家庭的責任！過往大家都認為小孩健康成長、讓小孩好好長大，成為社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任。但是我們都知道，現在社會環境的複雜，已經不是單一家庭或在學校求學階段就足以面對這麼多複雜的議題。孩子們出了學校拿起手機，他們對於數位接觸的熟悉，還有大人對於青少年文化的陌生，這部分我們辦公室之前甚至主動請衛福部來開會，主動請教育部來開會，甚至跨部會來開會。","我們就想如同您剛剛說的，面對少子化我們要做研議報告，所以我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會、中研院，看可不可以啟動相關的研究報告？可是我們得到的答案目前都是模稜兩可，好像沒有人願意積極承擔，或把這件事當成主要的業務範圍。但我必須說，這個現象真的越來越嚴重，所以我在這邊要特別提出來，並拜託審計部，後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查，可不可以提出更具體的建議，給予這些行政機關，讓他們有更積極的作為？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分我們會照委員的意思，在我們瞭解整個全面的情況以後，也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中肯。"],["陳委員培瑜：後續我們辦公室也很樂意再跟審計部保持積極的討論。如同我剛剛所說，我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論，就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這問題，因為兒少自殺不只是孩子沒有了生命，對於每個家庭、每個學校老師來說，都是一個悲傷的故事！所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生！也因此，跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極緊盯相關行政單位的行政效率，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，審計長有去過簡報畫面中的這個球場嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：這是高雄的楠梓足球場。因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過足球比賽，所以我的助理帶我去看的第一場是臺灣隊對吉爾吉斯隊的比賽。當天的比賽其實我們所表現的成績不是太好，可是我要說，我在現場看到球員盡心盡力在球場上揮灑，但這個球場有什麼樣的問題？當時前瞻計畫規劃要建六個相關球場，後來只蓋了這個球場，不知道審計長知道這件事嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我有所瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼六個只蓋了一個？後續的經費都到哪裡去了？在你們相關報告裡，你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分是因為有的進度落後，有的規劃不周、不全，所以就有檢討。其實足球對我們東方人來講，是一個很好的運動，所以我們會來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：據我們所知，其實相關縣市政府或相關部會應該沒有把錢拿去規劃球場，所以到底發生了什麼事？我覺得審計部要主動追蹤……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：對於大家來說，我剛剛在前面的體育題目已經提到，臺灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃發展，他們參考了很多國外社區俱樂部的作法，所以很多家長、很多孩子自己投入時間、資源，他們不打算走學校體育班的系統，他們花很多的時間自己練球。可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地，在臺灣就有困難！何況我們還告訴自己，我們要發展成一個體育大國、一個足球大國，這怎麼可能？所以我請審計長再一次看看這個球場。說實話，我們去到這個球場，看到上排的燈光經費都不夠，我還問我助理說，為什麼有燈光的架子，卻沒有燈掛在下面？就只是先把它架好，可是因為錢不夠就沒有辦法再往下做。除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外，後續其他或是之前規劃要蓋的球場也都沒有真的蓋出來，所以這個部分真的要拜託審計部積極地去糾正、去盯緊，看看到底發生了什麼事情，或者是本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，這個球場我們會派人去實地瞭解之後給委員提出……"],["陳委員培瑜：也不是只有這個球場，還有我剛剛說本來要蓋6座嘛……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：其他那幾個的經費是怎麼使用的，我們也會整個瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，也就是說，看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分啦，所以要拜託審計部積極地去緊盯這些事情。","簡單來說，我今天提了關於少子化的部分，還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會，還有體育署的相關足球發展業務，還有剛剛我講的前瞻計畫足球場，也就是說，所有這些預算到最後都是落在服務臺灣未來的主人翁，也就是所有的兒少身上。當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利、我們要在意兒少的權益時，除了行政機關有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外，也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關計畫的執行。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員，這個部分我們會照委員的意思來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。以上，謝謝審計長，謝謝主席。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員培瑜的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來請登記第5號林委員思銘詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8240937500000001,"end":1.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.50659375,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.240343750000001,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.73659375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.32721875,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.37096875,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.284093750000004,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.12596875,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.11221875000001,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.18284375,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.61721875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.24534375,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.20721875000001,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.78284375000001,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.30159375000001,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.38909375,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.40471875,"end":149.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.86409375000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.58034375,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.90534375000001,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.36909375000002,"end":213.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.53346875000003,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.40221875,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.70534375000003,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.80659375000002,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.70471875,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.80659375,"end":288.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.18971875,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.64409375,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.37471875,"end":313.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":357.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.41471875,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.47721875,"end":364.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.86846875000003,"end":364.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.88534375,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.11721875,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.29409375,"end":368.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.20096875,"end":371.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.16284375000004,"end":373.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.85034375000004,"end":374.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.11596875000004,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.56221875,"end":455.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.44909375000003,"end":458.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.49096875000004,"end":459.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.02659375,"end":461.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.83221875000004,"end":463.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.82346875,"end":464.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.41409375,"end":491.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.21159375,"end":494.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.92409375000005,"end":498.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.03721875,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.1653437499999,"end":519.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.57846875,"end":522.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.54846875,"end":527.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.2690937500001,"end":528.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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沈記長早安這是第一次有機會跟沈記長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下"},{"start":43.215,"end":65.374,"text":"在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀"},{"start":68.114,"end":81.582,"text":"就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點"},{"start":83.094,"end":102.242,"text":"陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?"},{"start":102.842,"end":114.833,"text":"我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析"},{"start":119.497,"end":149.137,"text":"是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是少子化的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是"},{"start":150.278,"end":164.078,"text":"不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化"},{"start":165.88,"end":182.75,"text":"社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧的服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定"},{"start":184.351,"end":210.771,"text":"這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關這個部分可不可以請您回應一下"},{"start":212.455,"end":219.567,"text":"最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要"},{"start":221.128,"end":245.247,"text":"正中建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分"},{"start":247.847,"end":273.846,"text":"我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標"},{"start":275.447,"end":299.154,"text":"因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據啊都會根據啊這個計畫他們定的計畫主標啊給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前呢世界排名他們說沒有提升"},{"start":299.654,"end":309.722,"text":"企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼"},{"start":312.188,"end":336.296,"text":"有一個6年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球6年計畫"},{"start":337.216,"end":357.083,"text":"甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼"},{"start":357.543,"end":378.857,"text":"因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要"},{"start":380.692,"end":398.387,"text":"體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢"},{"start":399.028,"end":403.892,"text":"我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球賽球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至呢有的是學校是用籃球隊田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算"},{"start":414.5,"end":433.797,"text":"可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強"},{"start":434.477,"end":455.054,"text":"可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育組的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象"},{"start":456.822,"end":478.734,"text":"這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注"},{"start":484.737,"end":488.783,"text":"相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?"},{"start":500.083,"end":515.719,"text":"另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象"},{"start":517.442,"end":522.664,"text":"關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重"},{"start":543.832,"end":566.806,"text":"到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任"},{"start":567.726,"end":589.958,"text":"過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生"},{"start":590.878,"end":611.865,"text":"這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的"},{"start":612.785,"end":632.586,"text":"好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為"},{"start":635.613,"end":661.393,"text":"這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中和後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命"},{"start":661.853,"end":679.423,"text":"對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下"},{"start":680.806,"end":705.571,"text":"沈記長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":706.511,"end":725.665,"text":"這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎"},{"start":727.083,"end":739.928,"text":"這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力"},{"start":742.549,"end":759.864,"text":"但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為呢對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展"},{"start":760.764,"end":775.877,"text":"他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長很多的孩子自己投入時間自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難"},{"start":776.437,"end":798.453,"text":"更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國一個足球大國這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那"},{"start":799.213,"end":814.431,"text":"除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了"},{"start":815.049,"end":830.611,"text":"好 這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛說本來要蓋六座嘛其他的那幾個那個經費他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解"},{"start":830.891,"end":859.776,"text":"好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益"},{"start":860.296,"end":866.182,"text":"也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝沈記長謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc08f91a493cf5f034da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6b72eae049c66d9735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:45:00 - 10:01:15","影片長度":"00:16:15","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":975,"end_time":"2024-04-02T10:01:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T09:45:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":157,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：審計長你好，我們先來談監察院長陳菊的「菊手之勞，大可不必」，我先請教你，陳菊要你們審計部設發言人，你照辦了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們本來就有發言人。"],["張委員啓楷：你是說陳菊不知道你們有發言人，叫你設發言人嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該知道。"],["張委員啓楷：應該知道，為什麼叫你們設發言人？這段時間你們每次提出來的決算報告，立法院都是拍手叫好的啊！很好地監督了政府的決算，說是什麼？揭弊的祕笈、揭弊的神書，對不對？所以對你們很肯定啊！可是相對地，陳菊陳院長叫你要設發言人、要出來幫忙辯護，他不曉得那個決算報告是你們寫的嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為……"],["張委員啓楷：你們幫民脂民膏看緊了荷包，為什麼叫你們出來否定自己的講法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：媒體因為對於我們的審計有不同的解讀，所以他是善意提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：他是善意？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：嗯，善意。"],["張委員啓楷：他不曉得政治力跟政黨不能夠介入獨立的審計權嗎？這不是干預了……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他是……"],["張委員啓楷：他是一個民主前輩，陳菊是臺灣民主的一個前輩，他怎麼可以干預獨立的審計權呢？審計長，我給你看，這個你應該比我熟悉啊！審計法第十條怎麼說？「審計人員依法獨立行使其審計職權，不受干涉。」對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的。"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：嗯。"],["張委員啓楷：為了怕監察院跟審計部權責不分，審計權受到干擾，監察院與審計部權責劃分原則第八點怎麼寫？明明確確寫著「監察委員不得影響審計人員獨立行使審計權。」是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以任何的監察委員跟陳菊，怎麼可以去干涉你們？怎麼可以政治力，或者要你們設什麼發言人呢？要你們出來講自己已經提出的這個結算報告呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他是善意提醒，希望我們有些過度解讀的地方，能夠對外有一個說明。"],["張委員啓楷：審計長，我知道你人比較善良，你一直在幫他講話，可是你一定要捍衛所有審計人員的獨立行使職權，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：這段時間立法院跟媒體對你們是非常肯定的，不是只有揭弊的秘笈這個事情而已，你們幫人民看緊了荷包，幫人民省了很多的錢，人民是感謝你的，人民會挺住你，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：不只捍衛審計部自己的權限，審計人員是優秀的，一定要捍衛他們的獨立行使職權跟他們的專業。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：好，接下來我們輕鬆一點。我們幫主席立法院院長韓國瑜叫屈一下，審計長知道現在韓國瑜韓院長辦公的地方，是在以前北二女的舊教室嗎？你知道嘛！現在的立法院以前就是北二女，以前有北一女，對不對？中山女高現在叫北二女，其實它以前叫做北三女，北二女在哪裡？就是現在大家出了議場看到立法院的這個馬蹄形，以前是北二女的學生上課的地方，所以我們韓國瑜韓院長，包括周萬來、所有的工作人員，他們是在舊教室，以前女校的這個教室裡面辦公，可是相對地，你看唐鳳在哪裡上班？他跑去地后新光大樓上班，這個落差是不是非常大？事實上不是只有數位發展部，目前為止，NCC有一些辦公室，工程會也都租在……，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["張委員啓楷：今天本席做個倡議，有沒有可能現在在外面租辦公室的，我全面清查過，差不多18億左右，這些在外面租辦公室的，想辦法去找一個中繼的辦公室，找一個像荒廢或者閒置的學校搬進去，以後每年我們至少省十幾億租金，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們一起努力，把這個錢省下來，為人民看緊荷包，把民脂民膏省下來。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：審計長，我們詳細地來看發生的問題，你看數發部，我們回到數發部的四個大問題，剛剛講我們立法院用以前北二女的教室，可是數發部去找了地后、臺北市租金第二高的新光大樓，它的租金太貴。現在本席去追，又發現一個新的問題了，它本來一年半對不對？用了多少錢，審計長你還記得嗎？7,000萬對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["張委員啓楷：7,000萬表示它一年用4,667萬，結果我最新追查到了，它今年元月份又去簽了一個6年3億的租金。審計長，如果3億的話用買的就好了，為什麼還要去租？是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["張委員啓楷：3億都可以在新北市很多地方買新房子了，幹嘛拿去租？這是第一個大問題。","第二個，之前4,667萬已經太多了，現在一年又多花了人民納稅錢333萬，這個要不要處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們還是因為……其實你要租房子，要經過國產署，看看有沒有閒置的房地，我們現在的閒置房地還是非常多啦！"],["張委員啓楷：審計長，那我要替數位部唐鳳說一下話，你看現在有人去開槍，事實上任何的暴力我們都是譴責的，暴力不能夠解決問題，老實講，數發部跟唐鳳去租地后新光大樓這麼貴的房子，中央也有責任啊！主計處還有你剛剛講的國有財產局，它應該全面去清查啊！像現在很好啊！現在舊的財政部大樓，新的搬出去之後，舊的整修完之後、補強完之後，國產署現在在裡面辦公啊！就省了很多錢，對不對？","我剛剛講的荒廢的學校、退場的學校，趕快去找，如果當初中央是這樣幫數發部，數發部就不會發生這個問題，所以我們等一下有一個重要責任，我們要幫數發部找新家。我去追了這個問題，後來唐鳳跟數發部也跟本席講他們的合約裡面訂了一條，只要他們有找到合適、租金比較低廉的地方，或者有中繼的地方，半年前跟新光大樓講，他們就可以搬出去，所以我們來努力幫被罵得臭頭的數位發展部找新家，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：數發部現在還有一個大的問題，我跟大家討論一下，它之前說要搬了，溝通得不好，所以臺北市本來花1.8億蓋了南門中繼市場，對不對？結果你看花了1.8億，然後用了4年，新的、美輪美奐的被拆掉了，我覺得這個行政責任，當初溝通不良，這個審計部應該也要去追一下，好不好？","最嚴重的問題來了，我給大家看一下，數位發展部現在最嚴重的問題是什麼地方？它的租金以外，就是它的裝潢了，你知道它的公設多少嗎？它去租這個新光大樓的公設多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：42%。"],["張委員啓楷：42%，它等於只有用58%啊！結果唐鳳還拍了片說什麼它的裝潢一坪才2萬塊，你應該扣掉42%對不對？我們看一下如果實際的是多少錢，本來唐鳳拍片說是不到2萬塊，事實上扣掉42%以後，它實際裝潢費用一坪超過4萬塊，這會不會太浪費人民的民脂民膏了？","本席去清查了113年度所有在外面租用辦公室的單位，我們來看一下，數位發展部才排第6，被罵得半死的數位發展部才排第6啊！第一個是哪裡？外交部，當然這九億五千多萬大部分是在外面租辦公室，對不對？那個是外館嘛！那就要買啊！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["張委員啓楷：應該要買啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有要求它。"],["張委員啓楷：所以審計部有要求嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有要求。"],["張委員啓楷：想辦法把九億多在外館的這個錢省下來，你買了以後，外交如果都很順，當然一直用，租金就省下來嘛！對不對？第二個，哪天要賣還是賺錢啊！OK，所以外館的這部分，很清楚地就要趕快買。你看本席去查泰國辦事處，108年買了，到113年，現在已經省一億多了，所以這九億多怎麼省下來，審計部也有責任督促他們趕快買，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，我們看國內的，國內的將近十億，到底要怎麼省下來？本席很明確的倡議，數位發展部已經講了只要給它合適的中繼站，半年前提出來之後它就可以搬進去，所以我們趕快幫它找新家。到哪邊找新家？有兩個方法，第一個，舊的財政部大樓已經補強了，可以再用10年，對不對？那現在是國產署……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。國產署有……"],["張委員啓楷：國產署在裡面，對不對！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：嗯。"],["張委員啓楷：如果早一點的話，就給數位部或給其他單位用，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，全面清查現在有哪些學校是荒廢的，學立法院，不要只有我們院長在學校辦公，以後中央部會包括NCC、工程會，甚至消防署這些在外面租辦公室的，搬到學校去辦公，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有清一下，也有這樣的空間。"],["張委員啓楷：透過這樣的努力，我們一年至少可以省10億租金，這是民脂民膏，我們一起努力。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來要談一個特別預算的問題，剛才吳思瑤，民進黨的立委特別提到這個問題，我覺得他可能沒有好好看你們的決算報告，也沒有看立法院的公報吧？審計長，你們每一年的審計報告裡面提了很多特別預算浮濫的事情啊！特別是你剛才講的，都沒有計畫就亂編錢、亂花錢啊！他怎麼可以要求預算法第八十三條第四款不能修呢？第一個，前面三款已經夠用了，戰爭或者是緊急事情，或者重大災變，第四條本身就是空白授權嘛，第四條本來就要刪掉！不只是審計部的審查報告裡面很多的例子清清楚楚，民進黨從以前的財經專家彭百顯、許添財，阿扁、陳水扁當立委的時候，到現在的柯建銘，很多民進黨的立法委員都提過要修掉這第四款啊，為什麼第四款不拿掉呢？","我們明確來看，你看特別預算現在已經變成什麼了？是吞噬民脂民膏最大黑洞、國債債臺高築最大元兇。我去做了一個統計，從李登輝到蔡英文四任總統執政，我們現在的債務六兆多對不對？六兆二千多億，其中將近4兆都是透過特別預算舉債來的，特別是剛講的第四款空白授權最嚴重了，也就是你們常常提出來有很多缺失的。我們再看一下，蔡英文任內提的特別預算，是從蔣中正到蔣經國的歷任所有總統當中最多的，這沒有浮濫的問題嗎？光是決算報告裡面我看到很多例子，前瞻基礎建設條例裡面，本來軌道建設經費編多少，4,200億對不對？結果後來經過審計部的報告、經過立法委員去追，降到多少？降到1,903億，會不會太離譜？基隆輕軌更離譜了，蔡英文去跟基隆說要編80億的基隆輕軌，2020年可以通車，結果到了2023年都沒做跳票了，從輕軌變成做捷運要452億，後來又增加到多少？697億，這個有計畫嗎？審計長剛才在回答吳思瑤的時候，你有特別講到這個重點，對不對？依你的專業是說，要有計畫才會有預算嘛，現在不是啊！現在特別預算就是被濫用啊！亂丟出來，亂編又亂花。你看屏鵝公路本來編多少？48.8億，一下增暴增到77.92億。前鎮漁港要3,000萬，給81億，這個增加了幾百倍啊！新竹棒球場，你看天母棒球場整修才用了8,000萬，新竹棒球場一下用了12億，還弊案不斷。","這個特別預算，預算法八十三條第四款是不是真的要刪掉？審計長，前面三款已經夠用了，對不對？後面就是一個空白授權嘛！它嚴重在什麼地方？每一次這個法提出來以後都弄一個特別條例，我們對預算都這麼熟悉的人，本來公共債務跟財政紀律有兩條非常重要的紅線，第一條是公債法的第五條第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我知道你人比較閒聊你一直在幫他講話可是你要捍衛我們所有審計人員這個獨立好不好好這段時間立法院跟媒體對你們是非常肯定的不是只有JB的這個JB的這個密集這個事情而已你們幫人民勘緊了荷包幫人民省了很多的錢人民是感謝你的人民會挺住你好不好謝謝不只捍衛自己審計部的前線我們的審計人員是優秀的一定捍衛他們獨立行使之前跟他們專練好"},{"start":212.438,"end":230.035,"text":"接下來我們輕鬆一點接下來我們幫我們的主席我們的女法院議員韓國瑜教訓一下新規定你知道現在我們韓國瑜韓院長辦公的所在是在一間舊北俄尼的舊教室嗎"},{"start":233.359,"end":255.495,"text":"你知道嗎?現在日本人以前就是北二女以前有北一女對不對中三女高現在叫北二女其實她以前叫北三女北二女在哪裡?現在大家出來除了議場看到的立法院的這個馬蹄形這個以前是北二女的學生上課的地方所以"},{"start":256.71,"end":278.787,"text":"韓國瑜、韓院長、保安周恩來他們所有的工作人員他們是在舊教室以前你校的這個教室裡面辦公可是相對你看到的唐鳳立在上班他早上去訂好新光大樓再上班這個落差是不是非常大"},{"start":279.864,"end":296.329,"text":"事實上不是只有世衛發展部、目前為止NCC、有些辦公室、工程會都能做到裡面對不對今天本席做個倡議有沒有可能現在在外面租辦公室的我前面清查過差不多18億左右"},{"start":298.024,"end":319.454,"text":"這些在外面租辦公室的想辦法去找一個中繼的辦公室找一個像荒廢或者閒置的學校搬進去以後每年我們至少省十幾億的租金好不好好我們一起來努力好我們把這個錢省下來為人民勘緊荷包把平時平高省下來好好謝謝委員請不一定來我們詳細的來看省紀部發生的問題"},{"start":323.22,"end":350.827,"text":"你看速發部的我們回到速發部的四個大問題剛講我們立法院用以前北二里的一個教室可是呢速發部去找了地厚台北市地厚租金地厚高的星光大樓他的租金太貴現在分析去追又發現一個新的問題了一本價一年半對不對用了多少錢?什麼樣的價錢?七千萬對不對?"},{"start":353.635,"end":373.563,"text":"七千萬標是一年應四千六百六十七萬結果啦我最新追查到了一斤年延月份又去簽了一個六年三億的租金是否可以領阿怎麼三億用買就好啊誰跟你說是不是三億都可以在新北市很多地方買新房子啦"},{"start":374.608,"end":385.335,"text":"幹麻拿去租?這是第一個大問題。第二個進井細清六百六十七萬已經太多了他簽了又多了一年花了人民納稅錢333萬這個要不要處理?"},{"start":391.121,"end":414.241,"text":"我們這一個啊我們還是因為其實你要租房子啊要有要經過國產史看看有沒有閒置的房地啦我們現在的閒置房地啊還是非常多啦還有新北地我們要替數位部唐鳳講一個話啦這其實你看現在有人在開槍事實上任何的暴力我們都是譴責的暴力不能夠解決問題那老實講"},{"start":417.274,"end":442.247,"text":"樹發部跟唐鳳BC租地厚星光大樓這麼貴的房子,中央也有責任啊!租界署還有你剛講的國有財產局,他應該前面去清查啊!像現在很好啊!現在舊的財政部的大樓他新的搬出去之後,舊的他整修完之後,補強完之後國產署現在就在辦公啊!就省了很多錢,對不對?你我剛講的,方會的學校、退場的學校趕快去找"},{"start":442.918,"end":469.556,"text":"若當初中央是這樣幫事務發布事務發布就不會發生這個問題所以我們等一下有一個重要責任我們等一下幫事務發布找新家我去追了這個問題後來唐鳳跟事務發布也跟齊凱講跟本席講他們的合約裡面訂了一條只要他們有找到合適租金比較低廉的地方或者有中繼的地方他們半年前跟星光大樓講他們就可以辦出去所以我們來努力幫被罵的臭頭的"},{"start":471.227,"end":498.833,"text":"數位部、數位發展部找新家好不好好數化部現在還有一個大的問題我跟大家討論一下他之前說要搬,搬了溝通不好所以台北市本錢花了1.8億蓋了南門的中繼市場對不對結果你看花了1.8億然後用了四年新的美輪美奐的被拆掉了我覺得這個行政責任當初溝通不良這個審計部應該要去追一下好不好"},{"start":499.983,"end":525.413,"text":"那最嚴重的問題來了來我給大家看一下數位發展部現在最嚴重的問題是什麼地方就是它的租金以往就是它的總分啊主席你知不知道它的公設多少他去租這個地後星光大樓它的公設多少42那他等於是有58%啊結果唐鳳還拍了片說什麼他的裝潢一坪才兩萬塊"},{"start":527.318,"end":556.838,"text":"你應該扣掉那42%對不對我們給他看一下他如果實際的是多少錢我們看一下他本來唐鳳拍片說是不到2萬塊事實上你扣掉42%以後他實際的裝潢費用一倍超過400塊這會不會太浪費人民人民的名字名高了好我們現在拉大來看我們來看一下本席去清查了113年度所有在外面租用辦公室的單位我們來看一下"},{"start":558.672,"end":558.932,"text":"我們有要求他"},{"start":584.093,"end":605.791,"text":"所以有 審計部有要求嘛有要求 想辦法把他九千把九億多在外管的這個錢把他省下來你買了以後你外交如果都很順當然一直用嘛 租金就省下來嘛 對不對第一個哪天要賣還是賺錢啊OK 還是所以外管的這部分很清楚就要趕快買好 那裡面的我們看一下看下一張"},{"start":607.298,"end":627.076,"text":"你看本席去查,泰國辦事處108年滿了到113年現在去省幾億了所以這9億多怎麼省下來?省計部也有責任督促他們趕快滿好不好?好OK,那我們看國內的國內的這將近10億到底要怎麼省下來?其本席很明確的倡議"},{"start":628.846,"end":657.865,"text":"世衛發展部已經講了只要給他合適的中繼站他半年前提出來之後他就可以搬進去所以我們趕快幫他找新家到哪邊找新家有兩個方法第一個舊的財政部大樓他已經補強了現在可以再用10年對不對那現在是國產國產署國產署在裡面對不對如果早一點的話就給世衛部或給其他單位用好不好好第二個前面清查現在哪些學校是方會的"},{"start":659.245,"end":682.86,"text":"學歷法院不要只有我們院長在學校辦公以後中央部會包括NCC工程會甚至消防署這些在外面出辦公室的搬到學校去辦公有沒有我們有清一下也有這樣的一個那透過這樣的努力我們一年至少可以省10億的租金民脂民膏我們請大家努力好接下來要談一個特別預算的問題對吳思堯民進黨的立委"},{"start":686.155,"end":707.226,"text":"特別提到這問題我覺得他可能沒有好好看你們的結算報告也沒有看立法院的公報吧新北電你們每一年的審計報告裡面提了很多特別預算腐爛的事情啊特別就是怎麼說的啊都沒計畫沒有計畫就亂編錢亂花錢啊他怎麼可以要求預算法的地"},{"start":710.106,"end":725.634,"text":"83條的第4款不能修呢?第一個前面3款已經夠用了戰爭或者是緊急事情或者重大災變第4條本身就是空白授權嘛第4條本來就要刪掉不只是審計部的審查報告裡面很多的例子清清楚楚"},{"start":726.738,"end":747.743,"text":"林進棟為醫警的財經專家、藤白賢、喜天才、阿扁、陳水扁當立委的時候﹐到現在的柯建民﹐很多立法委員、民進黨立法委員都提過要削掉這第四款啊。為什麼第四款不拿掉呢?我們明確來看,你看,特別醫生的現在已經變成什麼了呢?"},{"start":749.383,"end":778.55,"text":"吞噬民主民高最大的黑洞國債債台高築最大的這個元兇呢我去做了一個統計為李定輝及蔡英文事任這個總統執政我們現在的債務六條多對不對六條兩千塊億其中將近四帳都是透過特別預算取債來的特別是剛講那個第四款的那個空白收錢最嚴重的也就是你們常提出來有很多缺失的我們再看一下蔡英文任內"},{"start":781.018,"end":810.078,"text":"提的這個特評預算是所有從蔣中正到蔣經國歷任的總統所有最多的這沒有腐爛的問題嗎?我們看下一張光是結算報告裡面看到我看到很多例子前瞻基礎建設這個條例裡面本來軌道建設經費分價變多少?七千兩百億對不對?結果後來經過審計部的報告經過立法院去追降到多少?降到一千九百零三億的會上里經嗎?"},{"start":812.148,"end":831.121,"text":"基隆輕軌這更離譜了蔡英文說去跟基隆說什麼我要編81的基隆輕軌2020年可以通車結果到了2023年都沒有做跳票了變成輕軌變成要做捷運500、450而已到後來又增加到多少697億"},{"start":834.039,"end":861.097,"text":"這個有計劃嗎?請問你為什麼要這樣回答?有事要先特別說在重點對不對?你的專業就是說你要有計劃才會有預算嘛!現在不是啊!現在特別預算就是被爛用啊!亂丟出來亂編又亂花!再看下一張!你看!平和公路本價變多少?七十八點八億!一下暴增到七十七點九二億!前瞻旅館欸!要三千給八十億欸!"},{"start":864.007,"end":889.765,"text":"這個增加了幾百倍啊新竹棒球場你看天母棒球場的整修才用了八千萬新竹棒球場一下用了十二億還弊案不斷這個TAB預算法的83條的第四款是不是真的要刪掉這一個新規令前面三款已經夠用了對不對後面就是一個空白授權嘛來我們看下一張"},{"start":891.445,"end":910.044,"text":"他嚴重在什麼地方每一篇這個法提出來以後他都弄一個特別條例我們對預算都這麼熟悉的人他有本來公共債務跟財政基地有兩條非常重要的紅線第一條公債法的第五條的第七項就是所謂的債務的這個流量結果你看到"},{"start":912.133,"end":921.079,"text":"中央總預算跟特別預算每年的舉債額度不得超過其總額的這15%他先把這條紅線拿掉了不嚴鎖財政紀律第二條排除預算法第23條23條說什麼不能夠拿舉債跟設計作為經常性的支出對不對"},{"start":930.589,"end":952.297,"text":"結果現在每一年都用了一堆的這個取債方式就是因為用了特別預算嘛所以本席非常明確的要求來我們看最後一張刪除特別預算第83條第4款空白授權就是那一條不定期或數年一次的重大正式而且要有計劃才有預算可行性評估一定要合理可用另外你一直在強調一點不要影響到地方的財政可以嗎"},{"start":960.697,"end":972.183,"text":"所以第一,我們把天下租屋的辦公室那10億省下來。第二個,特別一張空賣收錢要趕快把它賭起來,不要變成人民納稅錢一直漏出去,每一年漏掉一兩千億,對不起民眾好不好?我們共產黨要努力!"}]}},{"id":"150834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc2590e2c5eb2d7f69da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a66096348b44ec061a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:29:00 - 09:44:38","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":938,"end_time":"2024-04-02T09:44:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T09:29:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":83,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時28分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳審計長好。審記長，本席再順著剛剛委員的詢答，我再來確認一下，預算法第八十三條裡面有四款的項目，其中包括國家的災事或是經濟重大變故，以及不定期或數年一次的重大政事，那有具名的官員馬上受訪說，如果真的預算法第八十三條刪除第四項的不定期或數年一次之重大政事的話，未來國家發生大地震或是經濟大蕭條，我們當然不希望有這樣的可能性，但如果真的有大地震的話，可不可以動用預算法第八十三條？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果是緊急危難……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是重大災變？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：重大災變、緊急危難。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第八十三條，特別預算可以動用，對不對？如果真的發生百年一見的經濟大蕭條，能不能用預算法第八十三條？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個在預算法裡面有……"],["洪委員孟楷：第二款是國家經濟重大變故，換言之，如果真的發生百年一見的大地震或是百年一見的經濟大蕭條，完全不受第四款……如果沒有考慮到的話，一樣可以動用預算法第八十三條，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要符合那三款的條件。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以符合剛剛本席所講那三款的條件嘛？答案已經非常明確了。明明這是一個答詢的部分，但是剛剛有委員講了半天，都沒有給你時間發言，本席特別給你時間發言跟回答，就是預算法第八十三條其實是特別預算可以因應，如果國家真的有百年一見的大地震或是百年一見的經濟大蕭條的話，預算法第八十三條也是可以因應的，但是我們希望臺灣風調雨順、國泰民安。","接下來要請教，最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚的就是要補貼台電，電價上漲。本席看到之前經濟委員會也有委員詢問過主計長，主計長說今年有可能要再補助台電1,000億或1,500億，為什麼呢？因為之前政府已經有補助台電，不管是3,300億、1,500億還是疫後特別預算500億，今年又說1,000億，但主計長的答詢是依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用，我想請教什麼時候審計部會審計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為決算的部分他們有一個期程，行政院4月底會送過來，我們要花3個月的時間，7月底送到大院，我們審定的期間是7月31號會審定完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為主計長已經說會有這樣的額度，所以預計一定會有這樣的額度，是嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：額度要等我們審計以後，因為我們在審計的期間多多少少會支出，收入可能會增減，大概是這樣。初步他們的決算估出來有兩千多億。"],["洪委員孟楷：有兩千多億，但多多少少扣除後可能會有1,000億以上再去做補貼。我想請教，歲入、歲出也都要經過立法院來做確認，行政部門可以直接補貼嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個要編預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：也要編預算嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要編預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：編列預算不管是用總預算，或是再編列一個特別預算，總是還要再經過立法院，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，所有的支出都要經過立法院。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。所以我就覺得奇怪，為什麼現在在討論調漲電價，然後政府已經說一定會補助台電，好像都不用經過立法院，當立法院完全是橡皮圖章嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可能是行政部門目前在討論這個案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門不用考慮到立法部門就對了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它形成預算……"],["洪委員孟楷：不用尊重立法部門？甚至行政部門也不用考慮到審計單位，就認為它現在有錢就可以補貼，反正7月時你們一定會交出至少超過1,000億的餘額讓他們發，是這樣嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為他們會做初估決算，初估出來有這樣的金額……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我知道你可能不好答。本席看了這些報告，連書面資料本席都有翻閱過，其中用電的部分，我想審計部門也很重視並且有掌握，我想請教一下，現在經濟部一直說要大家當個聰明的用電人，挑選時間來用電，說這樣可以比較便宜。那你們有沒有帶頭以身作則，審計單位有沒有去瞭解，過去到現在台電或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表，所有的中央機關，到底有多少機關使用智慧電表，審計部門有沒有掌握、有沒有要求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：智慧電表，對於台電的電費問題，我們有查過，像它的電表……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少中央機關有裝智慧電表？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我手上沒有這些資料，但是我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們有沒有要求中央機關至少要帶頭節約用電？因為現在經濟部告訴我們，民眾可以當個聰明的用電人，只要你裝智慧電表就可以比較便宜啊！那有多少的智慧電表是中央機關自己有裝？照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分，我們公帑當用則用、當省則省，能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛，所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則，是不是應該要裝智慧電表？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們希望智慧電表儘量趕快普及，因為不只中央各單位，連所有的商家、所有的民眾這樣做的話，對於我們整個電費的安排……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在普及率有多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有關普及率，因為我們有給他意見，當時的情況因為那個智慧電表進來有一點……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有給意見，審計長，所以就您的瞭解，我們現在普及率……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不大、不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝啦，審計長，您講的很委婉啦，其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦！我會提出來就是認為，審計單位其實真的可以要求中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則，而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人，但實際上自己沒有以身作則。","再請教一下審計長，食安問題最近大家也非常關心，審計部在2022年、也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出，國際食品警訊監控機制行之多年，但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋、泡麵等驗出致癌物，當時就有講食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況，這是審計部的一個報告；去年又發生了莓果驗出A肝病毒而有邊境管制的部分；今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅狀況。那我想請教，在過去這兩年，審計部111年就已經有提出衛福部食藥署應該要改善、要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程，而食安層出不窮，審計部能夠接受現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為食安問題，關心民眾的生命還有健康，所以今（113）年，我們現在在查整個食安，從食安五環的源頭控管、重建生產管理，還有加強查驗、加重廠商的責任……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，食安五環是什麼時候提出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：105年。"],["洪委員孟楷：105年、2016年嘛。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去民進黨執政8年的時間，到現在2024年還在檢討食安五環，你有沒有印象，過去這幾年好像每年的審計報告裡面，一定會有一則、一章、一節討論到衛福部或是相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討？尤其2023年還有說下半年要啟動食安專案調查，這是媒體上的報導，你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查，結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了！蘇丹紅還是他們親口承認這不是個案、這個是系統性的食安問題，那行政部門到底有沒有把你們審計的建議、提醒、要求當一回事？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：食安問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止，我們有這個決心。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，您有這個決心多久了？過去有沒有這個決心？過去有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何一個事情，只要它那個……我們都會下決心。"],["洪委員孟楷：111年的時候有這個決心、2022年有這個決心，結果2023年又有莓果事件；2023年有這個決心，2024年有蘇丹紅事件；2024年有這個決心，行政部門有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人，你們的決心在哪裡？你們的要求在哪裡？你們有沒有送監察院去做一個調查報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個都會送。"],["洪委員孟楷：會送，您說的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以蘇丹紅事件預計要送誰？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個監察院已經啟動調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來這個？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：6月底會出來，因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來，所以整個食安的問題我們會從食安五環的每個面向來把它找出來，慢慢地共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決。"],["洪委員孟楷：做一個解決，非常好。審計長，本席站在這邊跟您討論每一個問題其實都是站在同一陣線，有關食安問題，我雖然身為在野黨委員，但是我從來都不希望發生，因為發生了食安問題，受苦、受傷、受害的就是臺灣民眾，也因此能夠做好把關，這當然應該要做好把關，但為什麼今天會再次提出來？就是因為當我看到審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本，而且這只是一本喔！其實有上下冊，做出那麼多資料的時候，結果發覺行政部門好像充耳不聞。我們明明已經有示警過了，食安問題，2022年就有示警過，2023年也出現，2024年也出現，你剛剛講的決心，我希望這個決心是有貫徹的，是真的能夠站在人民的同一陣線，幫人民把關，不要再發生食安問題。審計長，我會記住你的決心這一句話。","再來，您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑，但是你的第一個最重要的報告，你列為是哪一個？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們在做關鍵審計，就包括食安、包括少子化、包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，第一個少子化，少子化推動計畫，我們從107年推動到113年，過去這6年的時間總共花了多少公務預算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：兩千多億。"],["洪委員孟楷：4,851億，差了一倍，四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫，結果我們的生育率從投入的時候，106年是1.13人，逐步降到110年是0.98人，到111年創新低來到0.87人。四千多億花下去，結果我們的出生率不進反退，111年的時候變成只有0.87人。審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好，兩大重點，一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境，但這個是對於已婚或有小孩的，可是對於未婚族群的關注不足，就是已婚或有小孩的一直著重、一直丟入資源，但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚，你何來奢望他能夠生小孩？這是審計報告的第一點。","第二、由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計畫窗口，國人不婚、晚婚沒有主責單位，結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出，後續進度跟未竟之業沒有著墨，待處理事項甚至還寫0。我想請教，6年過去了，少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案，花了四千多億，結果我們到現在還在討論到底哪一個單位要主責，是衛福部也好，還是教育部也好，還有國人晚婚、未婚的情況沒有主責單位。審計長，四千多億給行政部門丟下去了、用掉了、花掉了、沒了，怎麼解釋？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會儘量希望行政部門能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你是學科學的……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是行政部門已經在做實證，他也請國科會做這整個的研……因為原因很複雜啦！所以在做實證……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然知道複雜，所以我們花了四千多億！不是四千多塊、不是四千多萬，是四千多億啊！很複雜沒有錯，6年的時間給行政部門了，審計部也做出報告了，你自己的報告是說行政部門沒有主責單位，結果你現在在幫行政部門講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在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢"},{"start":42.432,"end":63.156,"text":"那有官員巨名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條"},{"start":65.199,"end":82.12,"text":"那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有"},{"start":85.613,"end":111.792,"text":"國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席所講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以"},{"start":113.151,"end":140.317,"text":"答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好"},{"start":142.148,"end":146.436,"text":"再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲"},{"start":148.769,"end":175.048,"text":"那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用"},{"start":176.138,"end":195.27,"text":"那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎"},{"start":201.455,"end":214.252,"text":"額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億"},{"start":215.643,"end":231.108,"text":"有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認啊他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算"},{"start":234.52,"end":260.799,"text":"也要編預算嗎?不管是之前編列預算：不管是用總預算：或者說再編列一個特別預算：總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對,要租出啊：所有的租出都要經過立法院是,所以說我想有些奇怪啊：為什麼像現在這邊討論說：調漲電價：然後這個政府已經講是說：就一定會補助台電：那好像都沒有經過立法院：這當立法院完全是橡皮獨張嗎?"},{"start":262.28,"end":285.079,"text":"這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎"},{"start":289.251,"end":316.437,"text":"這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來啦有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜"},{"start":318.777,"end":332.618,"text":"那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則,審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握"},{"start":335.459,"end":361.098,"text":"我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜"},{"start":361.798,"end":381.173,"text":"那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表"},{"start":382.435,"end":397.807,"text":"我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少"},{"start":401.121,"end":418.971,"text":"普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦"},{"start":419.619,"end":441.51,"text":"那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心"},{"start":442.591,"end":467.25,"text":"我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告"},{"start":468.55,"end":496.355,"text":"去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮"},{"start":497.576,"end":500.17,"text":"省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?"},{"start":501.107,"end":526.707,"text":"我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從源頭控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任政治食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年"},{"start":528.644,"end":549.433,"text":"105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討"},{"start":551.24,"end":579.5,"text":"尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒、要求當一回事"},{"start":580.134,"end":593.746,"text":"我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心"},{"start":595.382,"end":619.039,"text":"過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送"},{"start":620.746,"end":647.271,"text":"會送?您說的?對所以蘇彈虹事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄審核報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決非常好"},{"start":648.24,"end":677.92,"text":"沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔"},{"start":678.2,"end":678.82,"text":"陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話"},{"start":703.149,"end":728.884,"text":"再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安包括少子化包括多少第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算"},{"start":730.752,"end":743.79,"text":"兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率"},{"start":745.618,"end":766.206,"text":"從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人"},{"start":768.503,"end":785.418,"text":"審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足"},{"start":786.158,"end":814.094,"text":"就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零"},{"start":815.762,"end":840.069,"text":"那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋"},{"start":845.302,"end":861.235,"text":"我們會盡量和希望行政部門市長你是學科學的人吧已經在做俗正他也請國會做整個因為原因很複雜當然知道複雜所以我們花了4000多億不是4000多塊不是4000多塊是4000多億"},{"start":866.98,"end":891.36,"text":"很複雜沒有錯啊六年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會今天那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒"},{"start":893.978,"end":908.591,"text":"這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長"},{"start":911.383,"end":925.152,"text":"在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見謝謝"}]}},{"id":"150833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fc415b454b19c34089da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6947e19a67f7da4ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:13:00 - 09:28:41","影片長度":"00:15:41","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議","id":"院會-11-1-7","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7},"date":"2024-04-02","duration":941,"end_time":"2024-04-02T09:28:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-02T09:13:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":42,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時13分）謝謝院長，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：審計長早安。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：早安。"],["吳委員思瑤：所有審計部門的同仁，大家辛苦、大家早安。剛剛我聆聽了您的報告，當然那是口頭報告，今天有三個主題，好幾本厚厚的審計報告，我都儘可能就我關切的議題去關注、去研讀，有利於我專業的問政。","首先，您剛剛說到審計機關之所以存在是因為大家可以發揮審計的專業，有助於政府的良善治理，透過你們的專業能夠提出非常多系統性、多年期的完整報告，有利於政府來年編列預算，乃至於預算執行的層面能夠有所精進。當然對於立法委員，你們的存在跟專業也大有必要，因為藉由你們系統性、多年期的長期的審計觀察，也能夠提供給國會議員專業監督很多好的建議，首先我肯定大家、感謝大家。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天我要就教於您有幾個主題，第一個，最近吵得沸沸揚揚的特別預算制度，我們非常遺憾，特別預算的制度行之有年，不論誰執政都有一套非常嚴謹的程序，但是這幾年持續地被污名化、被政治化。我今天在這裡就教於您也特別有意義，我們立法院有活字典──周萬來秘書長，陳審計長在我看來，您待過主計機關，現在在審計部，也是臺灣預算制度的維基百科，所以就教於您，我覺得特別有意義。首先，國家的預算程序有法源、有法律的授權，然後各部會、各單位都明確分工，所以這一套完善的預算制度是不可撼動的。我們適用的法規非常多，預算法、會計法、決算法、審計法、公庫法、財政紀律法、公共債務法等等，這是政府明確就預算的制度面的分工，在籌編面是行政權，在審議權的部分就是立法院，在預算執行的層面當然是行政機關負有權責，最後一關就是今天在場的大家，預算的執行要再double check的事後監督就是審計權。所以一個國家政府的預算制度，從編纂、監督、執行到事後的再審核，有行政權、有立法權、有審計權的分工，這一套預算制度行之有年，都沒有改變，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。今天的三個主題，一個是中央政府總預算的決算，這個我們非常有經驗；第二個謝謝你們，就是厚厚的有關於前瞻基礎建設的特別預算跟紓困的特別預算，也都有完整的報告，這代表著立法委員我吳思瑤針對行政部門提出來的特別預算或是公務預算，我有事前、執行前的監督權，審計機關就是事後的審計權，所以是雙重的double check，這也沒有改變嘛！一直是這樣嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。預算法第八十三條針對特別預算有四個執行的但書，也就是基於國防緊急設施或戰爭可以動用特別預算，基於國家經濟重大變故可以執行特別預算，重大災變當然需要特別預算，第四款就是不定期或數年一次之重大政事可以啟用特別預算，這是預算法第八十三條的現行規定，這幾年來也沒有改變嘛！您認為就您的審計跟主計的專業，為什麼預算法要有這四項的執行理由授權給行政部門？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要應付不可……變的因素。"],["吳委員思瑤：不可預測的嘛！所以它是行政權的範疇沒有錯嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：主計總處也特別說明了，其實我們公務機關也應當有檢討的必要，因為公務機關的預算是一年編一次，某種程度它欠缺了彈性，某種程度它也僵化了，所以才需要有特別預算去補這個不足嘛！你也都同意這個論述嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這四項您都同意要持續存在？有利於政府的良善治理跟行政權限的推動。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝您，您說得非常清楚。預算法第八十三條行之有年，不論誰執政都是一個長長久久的制度，不是因為誰上台才可以這樣用嘛！","所以我這裡也整理出來，特別預算行之有年，藍、綠執政時期都有編列，而且行政部門善用這樣一個法律的授權，這是一個正向的、這是一個積極的因應國家去面對所有的、必要的、即時的預算調配。在陳水扁2000年到2008年，他用預算法第八十三條第二款經濟的理由跟第四款的重大政事，他有基隆河整治，他有擴大公建、有水患治理跟石門水庫的整治計畫。阿扁總統時期也啟用了剛剛預算法的第三款，就是因應災害，那時候的SARS以及921災後重建都依法來編列特別預算。馬英九執政的時期也依據同法第二款跟第四款，他做了振興經濟消費券的發放，他做了所謂愛台十二建設的擴大公建，他也做了流域綜合治理；同樣地馬英九前總統也依據同法第三款，在莫拉克風災之後，他做了1,165億的特別預算，馬英九執政的時候也有。所以我是非常地不解，當馬英九執政的時候，他可以依據預算法第八十三條第四款來推動愛台十二建設，而在野黨不會說那是害台十二建設，不會！行政權有權限、依法，我們就是監督，我們不會去推翻，但為什麼在野黨到現在一直要把前瞻建設說成錢坑建設？我覺得這是完全雙標，馬英九可以依預算法第八十三條第四款推動愛台十二建設，可是現在國民黨要修法把這一個但書砍掉，因為現在執政的不是國民黨，這就嚴重戕害了整個預算的制度！","回到現在，此時此刻，時空背景為2016年到2024年，蔡英文政府也依據預算法第二款、第四款做了前瞻建設，做了疫後的振興，大家都領到6,000元，結果國民黨還要加碼，6,000元不夠，要發1萬喔！這同樣都是法律授權的特別預算，如果國民黨要砍掉特別預算的但書，以後不只領不到6,000元，3,000元、1,000元都沒有了，因為政府行政權已經被綁手綁腳。在蔡英文時期，我們面臨COVID-19，依法也動用紓困的預算包括疫情防治，因應國際的兩岸局勢，蔡總統也依第八十三條第一款，因應國防的需要也採購我們軍事必要的設備，所以藍綠都有。","審計長，您非常有經驗，只要有特別預算的編列，前端的監督是國會的事，後端的審計專業就是你們要處理的事情，每一個特別預算都是循同樣的程序，然後你們同樣認真、負責地寫出報告給政府做參考，有沒有因為是國民黨執政或是民進黨執政而有什麼差別？有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有差別。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有差別嘛！這就是大家發揮專業、本於職責，有助於政府預算制度的穩健，有助於國家的良善治理。現在問題來了，國民黨也好、民眾黨也好，都要提案修預法第八十三條，有6個案子，但是殊途同歸，都是要把我剛剛秀出來的預算法第八十三條第四款刪除，或是給予要立法院同意才可進行的這種額外但書。由你來看，剛才我們這樣說了一大堆，現在國民黨還是民眾黨要提案把預算法第八十三條第四款拿掉，依您的專業意見，可行嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我認為一開始的計畫很重要，要加強計畫的審議。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個條文……"],["吳委員思瑤：任何的特別預算都有特別條例在前、計劃項目明確，然後特別預算的編纂當然要主計機關還有事後的審計機關，關關都要過，中間還有一關叫做國會。你覺得計畫要完備，所以你的意思是說砍掉第四款，這真的是無天良、無天理，對不對？也沒道理啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：儘量避免，但是我們還是會尊重大院的決議。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，儘量避免，當然希望國民黨、民眾黨的委員有聽進去。關於特別預算，如果國民黨、民眾黨要用國會多數硬把預算法第八十三條第四款拿掉的話，其實特別預算就名存實亡了，立法權就凌駕行政權了，它違反憲法第七十條，立法委員不得為預算增加之決議，它有相當的立法理由，因為立法委員就是監督權；它也違反大法官釋字第391號跟第613號的行政、立法權力分立運作原則，這樣一個修法是立法權凌駕行政權，更是壓縮政府應變的預算彈性，就是扯國家的後腿，讓國家綁手綁腳沒辦法做事情。","同樣非常諷刺的，也要就教於您，國民黨的委員一方面要砍特別預算的法源，一方面自己要提特別預算，也就是國民黨的黨鞭提出三個特別條例，其中花東快速公路要2,500億起跳，國道6號東延要8,000億起跳，環島高鐵是調來調去，現在不知道要花多少。同樣的理由，立法權不能凌駕行政權；同樣的理由，任何一個交通建設、剛剛講的三項建設，政府應當經過評估，該支持就支持，我本人也沒有反對這三大建設喔！只是說行政部門，您剛剛講的非常好，審計長說任何一個特別預算的提出需要有完整的計畫嘛！所以說這樣子用一個特別條例綁特別預算，然後立法委員提出，而且限期10年完成，比較糟糕的是這10年啦！它完全違反了交通專業的評估，也違反今天在座各位你們的審計專業、你們的預算編纂的專業嘛！所以這種違憲的大撤幣由立法委員來提出，用特別條例綁特別預算，本席是期期以為不可啊！","這是重大公共建設必須進行的工程評估及財務試算，從第一階段的規劃、設計到最後的施工，其實這都搭配財務計畫，必須進行可行性評估、必須有綜合規劃、必須有基本設計，然後進入細部設計，然後到執行面的施工發包，到完工驗收。如果今天國民黨的委員們用立委的提案、用特別條例限期10年，花多少錢他隨便填、隨便寫，幾千億他都亂寫就好了，沒有精準的工程試算，沒有精確的財務評估，那這樣子以後大家忙不完了。審計部門的同仁，你們針對這三大特別預算未來寫出來的審計報告，可能是現在這裡的十倍、10大本，因為它前端的計畫不夠周延，交通有交通的專業，預算有預算的專業，這就是這整個政府大家「分工」，立法院能做的就是監督，審計部門能做的就是事後的審核。如果國民黨立委提出這樣的特別條例、特別預算，那行政院關了算了，交通部關了算了，審計部門你們可能也關門算了，這是違反憲法的授權，違反政府的預算制度，違反國家重大建設應當有個完整審核。","所以我整理出來，國民黨一方面提案要凍結特別條例，一方面又要自己來做特別預算，違反了憲法第七十條、違反了大法官釋字第391號及第613號。以立委來提出特別預算或者是特別條例，有的還要用基金來處理，違反了財政紀律法第五條、第八條，新設基金都要明確地說明資金之來源。預算法第九十一條，立法委員所提法律案大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，應先徵詢行政院之意見，指名彌補資金之來源。這都有清楚的預算法、財政紀律法的規範。","所以，我在這裡預告，你們要基於你們的審計專業，如果讓這種違憲、違反政府制度的特別條例綁特別預算，或者是特別條例綁新設基金的話，以後審計部門真的會忙到不完啦！您是不是綜合答復？是不是給委員最好的建議，慎思，三思而後行，百思而後行？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員已經講了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝您認同我的主張，我們一起努力，大家辛苦。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員思瑤的諮詢，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2位洪委員孟楷詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.774093750000002,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.520343750000002,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.882843750000003,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.789718750000002,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.94971875,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.10971875,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.91971875,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.05034375,"end":39.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.53534375,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.59409375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.88909375,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.04471875,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.7997187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check的事後監督就是審計權所以一個國家政府的預算制度從編轉到監督到執行到事後的再審核有行政權有立法權有審計權的分工所以這一套預算制度行之有年都沒有改變嘛對不對"},{"start":189.457,"end":207.751,"text":"對好下一頁那今天的三個主題一個是中央政府總預算的決算這個我們非常有經驗第二個呢就是謝謝你們厚厚的有關於前瞻基礎建設的特別預算跟這個紓困的特別預算也都有完整的報告這代表著"},{"start":208.371,"end":224.446,"text":"立法委員我吳思瑤針對行政部門提出來的特別預算或是公務預算我有事前執行前的監督權審計機關就是事後的審計權所以是雙重的double check那"},{"start":226.463,"end":241.276,"text":"這也沒有改變嗎一直是這樣嗎好下一頁預算法83條針對特別預算有4個執行的但書也就是基於國防緊急設施或戰爭可以動用特別預算"},{"start":242.037,"end":270.543,"text":"基於國家經濟的重大變故可以執行特別預算重大災變當然需要特別預算第四款就是不定期或數年一次之重大政事可以啟用特別預算這是預算法83條的現行規定這幾年來也沒有改變那您認為就您的審計跟主計的專業為什麼預算法要有這四項的執行的理由授權給行政部門因為要應付不可變的"},{"start":272.398,"end":277.619,"text":"對"},{"start":278.035,"end":306.935,"text":"那主計總署也特別說明了其實我們公務機關也應當有檢討的必要因為公務機關的預算是一年編一次某種程度它欠缺了彈性某種程度它也僵化了所以才需要有特別預算去補這個不足嘛您也都同意這個論述嘛對所以這四項您都同意要持續存在有利於政府的良善治理跟行政權限的推動"},{"start":307.813,"end":308.859,"text":"對的好謝謝您"},{"start":310.185,"end":338.219,"text":"您說得非常清楚預算法83條行之有年不論誰執政都是一個督督噔噔的制度不是因為誰作主才可以這樣贏嘛下一頁所以我這裡也整理出來特別預算行之有年藍綠執政時期都有編列而且行政部門善用這樣一個法律的授權這是一個正向的這是一個積極的因應國家去面對所有的"},{"start":339.019,"end":359.258,"text":"必要的即時的預算的調配在陳水扁2000年到2008年他用預算法83條的第二款經濟的理由跟第四款就是這個重大正式他有基隆河整治他有這個擴大工建有水患治理跟石門水庫的整治計劃"},{"start":360.843,"end":372.619,"text":"阿扁總統時期也啟用了剛剛預算法的第三款就是因應災害那時候的SARS以及921災後重建都依法來編列特別預算下一頁"},{"start":373.781,"end":396.312,"text":"馬英九執政的時期也依據同法的第二款跟第四款他做了振興經濟消費券的發放他做了所謂愛台十二建設的擴大攻堅他也做了流域的綜合治理同樣的馬英九前總統也依據同法的第三款在莫拉克風災之後他做了1165億的特別預算"},{"start":399.352,"end":421.099,"text":"所以馬英九執政的時候也有所以我是非常的不解當馬英九執政的時候他可以依據預算法83條的第4款來推動愛台12建設而在野黨不會說那是害台12建設不會行政權有權限依法我們就是監督我們不會去推翻"},{"start":422.284,"end":447.332,"text":"那為什麼在野黨到現在一直要把前瞻建設說成前坑建設我覺得這是完全的雙標馬英九可以依預算法83條第4款來推動愛台十二建設可是現在國民黨要修法把這一個單書砍掉因為現在執政的不是國民黨"},{"start":448.229,"end":476.332,"text":"這就嚴重的強害了整個預算的制度嗎?下一頁回到現在此時此刻時空背景在2016到2024年蔡英文政府也依據預算法的第二款、第四款做了前瞻建設做了易後的振興大家都領到6000塊結果國民黨還要加碼6000不夠要發一萬喔這都是同樣的法律授權的特別預算啊"},{"start":477.301,"end":504.527,"text":"如果國民黨要砍掉特別預算的但書那麼以後六千塊不只領不到三千塊一千塊都沒有了因為政府行政權已經被拔卡拔手那蔡英文時期當然我們面臨了COVID-19依法也動用了紓困的預算跟疫情的防治當然因應國際的兩岸局勢蔡總統也依法"},{"start":506.12,"end":528.381,"text":"83條的第一款因應國防的需要也採購了我們的軍事必要的設備所以藍綠都有審計長您在這裡非常有經驗每一個只要有特別預算編列前端的監督是國會的事後端的審計專業就是你們要處理的事情每一個特別預算都是循同樣的程序然後你們同樣認真負責的寫出報告"},{"start":531.298,"end":550.252,"text":"給政府做參考?是否因為是國民黨這陣還是民進黨這陣有什麼差別?沒有差別這就是大家發揮專業本於職責有助於政府的預算制度的穩健有助於國家的良善治理下一頁現在問題來了"},{"start":552.612,"end":563.971,"text":"國民黨也好民眾黨也好都提案要修預算法83條有6個案子但是殊途同歸啦都是要把我剛剛秀出來的預算法83條的4款"},{"start":566.192,"end":585.108,"text":"第四款刪除：或者是給予要立法院同意才可進行：的這種額外的但書?那你來看剛才我們說這樣幾三篇現在國民黨還是民眾黨要提案把預算法的83條的第四款拿掉您的專業意見?我認為計畫"},{"start":594.275,"end":622.114,"text":"開始的計劃很重要是要加強計劃的審議沒錯這一個任何的特別預算他有特別條例在前計劃項目明確然後特別預算的編傳當然要主計機關還有事後的審計機關關關都要過中間還有一關叫做國會所以你覺得計劃完備嘛所以你的意思是說去砍掉第四款這真的就是沒天良沒天利對不對也沒道理啦"},{"start":623.977,"end":631.524,"text":"盡量避免但是我們還是會尊重大院的決議盡量避免當然希望國民黨民眾黨委員有聽進去下一頁"},{"start":633.806,"end":661.733,"text":"所以特別預算如果國民黨民眾黨要用國會的多數硬把預算法83條的第4款拿掉的話其實特別預算就名存實亡了行政權就凌駕了立法權了他違反了憲法第70條立法委員不得為預算增加之決議他有相當的立法理由因為立法委員就是監督權他也違反了大法官釋字391號跟613號的行政立法權利分立運作的原則"},{"start":662.913,"end":671.848,"text":"所以這樣一個修法是立法權來凌駕行政權：更是壓縮了政府應變的預算彈性：就是扯國家的後腿。"},{"start":676.368,"end":693.999,"text":"下一頁同樣非常諷刺而也要就教於您國民黨的委員一方面要砍特別預算的法源一方面自己要提特別預算也就是國民黨的黨編提出了三個特別條例其中花東快速公路要2500億起跳國道6號東延要8000億起跳環島高鐵那是條來條去現在不知道開多少"},{"start":700.54,"end":723.655,"text":"同樣的理由立法權不能凌駕行政權同樣的理由任何一個交通建設剛剛講的三項建設政府應當經過評估該支持就支持我本人也沒有反對這三大建設只是說行政部門您剛剛講得非常好沈機長說任何一個特別預算的提出需要有完整的計劃"},{"start":725.529,"end":743.335,"text":"所以說這樣子用委員的用一個特別條例綁特別預算然後立法委員提出而且限期10年完成這還是在10年啊他完全違反了交通專業的評估也違反今天在座的各位你們的審計專業你們的預算編轉的專業嘛"},{"start":748.715,"end":771.798,"text":"所以這種違憲的大撒幣由立法委員來提出用特別條例綁特別預算本席是認為其其以為不可啊下一頁這是重大公共建設必須進行的工程評估跟財務試算從第一階段的規劃設計到最後的施工其實這都搭配我們的財務計畫"},{"start":773.479,"end":784.651,"text":"必須進行可行性評估必須有綜合規劃必須有基本設計然後進入細部設計然後到執行面的施工發包到完工驗收"},{"start":785.615,"end":812.783,"text":"如果今天國民黨的委員們用立委的提案：用特別條例：限期10年：開罰罪以5倍下：規程也都以5倍下就好了沒有精準的工程試算沒有精確的財務評估那這樣子以後大家忙不完了審計部門的同仁你們針對這三大特別預算未來寫出來的審計報告可能是這裡的10倍"},{"start":814.267,"end":836.746,"text":"十大本因為它前端的計劃不夠周延交通有交通的專業預算有預算的專業這就是這整個政府大家分工立法院能做的就是監督審計部門能做的就是事後的審核若是國民黨立委提出這樣的特別的條例特別預算"},{"start":838.462,"end":855.917,"text":"那行政院關的算了交通部關的算了審計部門你們可能也關門算了這是違反憲法的授權違反政府的預算制度違反國家重大建設應當有的完整審核"},{"start":856.718,"end":870.463,"text":"下頁所以我整理出來國民黨一方面提案要凍結特別條例一方面又要自己來做特別預算違反了憲法70條違反了大法官誓字391號跟613號下頁"},{"start":874.204,"end":888.337,"text":"以立委來提出特別預算更是：或者是特別條例：他有的還要用基金來處理違反了財政紀律法第5條、第8條新設基金都要明確地說明基金之來源"},{"start":889.498,"end":904.066,"text":"預算法91條立法委員所提法律案大幅增加稅出或減少稅入者應先徵詢行政院之意見指明彌補資金之來源這都有清楚的預算法財政紀律法的規範規範所以"},{"start":907.335,"end":926.74,"text":"我是在這裡預告啦你們要基於你們的審計專業如果讓這種違憲違反政府制度的特別條例綁特別預算或者是特別條例綁新設基金的話以後審計部門真的不敵不告不賣完了您是不是綜合答覆是不是"},{"start":940.072,"end":940.092,"text":"謝謝吳委員"}]}},{"id":"15781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15781","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609d6d579ee4e7bcd72ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be4964dd50aa56823705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） 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我覺得特別有意義下一頁首先"},{"start":2690.738,"end":2717.925,"text":"國家的預算程序有法源有法律的授權然後各部會各單位都來明確分工所以這一套完善的預算制度是不可撼動的首先我們適用的法規非常多喔預算法、會計法、決算法、審計法、公庫法、財政紀律法、公共債務法等等所以這是一個政府明確就一個預算的制度面的分工在籌編面是行政權"},{"start":2719.225,"end":2724.772,"text":"在審議權的部分就是立法院在預算執行的層面當然是行政機關負有權責"},{"start":2726.67,"end":2753.028,"text":"那最後一關就是今天在場的大家預算的執行要在double check的事後監督就是審計權所以一個國家政府的預算制度從編轉到監督到執行到事後的再審核有行政權有立法權有審計權的分工所以這一套預算制度行之有年都沒有改變嘛對不對對好"},{"start":2753.652,"end":2771.28,"text":"下一頁那今天的三個主題一個是中央政府總預算的決算這個我們非常有經驗第二個呢就是謝謝你們厚厚的有關於前瞻基礎建設的特別預算跟這個紓困的特別預算也都有完整的報告這代表著"},{"start":2771.92,"end":2787.978,"text":"立法委員我吳子瑤針對行政部門提出來的特別預算或是公務預算我有事前執行前的監督權審計機關就是事後的審計權所以是雙重的double check那"},{"start":2789.995,"end":2805.049,"text":"這也沒有改變嗎一直是這樣嗎好下一頁預算法83條針對特別預算有4個執行的但書也就是基於國防緊急設施或戰爭可以動用特別預算"},{"start":2805.569,"end":2834.075,"text":"基於國家經濟的重大變故可以執行特別預算重大災變當然需要特別預算第四款就是不定期或數年一次之重大政事可以啟用特別預算這是預算法83條的現行規定這幾年來也沒有改變那您認為就您的審計跟主計的專業為什麼預算法要有這四項的執行的理由授權給行政部門因為要應付不可變的"},{"start":2836.611,"end":2839.313,"text":"不可預測的嗎所以他是行政權的範疇沒有錯嗎對"},{"start":2841.587,"end":2870.465,"text":"那主計總署也特別說明了其實我們公務機關也應當有檢討的必要因為公務機關的預算是一年編一次某種程度它欠缺了彈性某種程度它也僵化了所以才需要有特別預算去補這個不足嘛您也都同意這個論述嘛對所以這四項您都同意要持續存在有利於政府的良善治理跟行政權限的推動"},{"start":2871.486,"end":2872.393,"text":"對的好謝謝您"},{"start":2873.717,"end":2901.749,"text":"您說得非常清楚預算法83條行之有年不論誰執政都是一個督督噔噔的制度不是因為誰作主才可以這樣贏嘛下一頁所以我這裡也整理出來特別預算行之有年藍綠執政時期都有編列而且行政部門善用這樣一個法律的授權這是一個正向的這是一個積極的因應國家去面對所有的"},{"start":2902.549,"end":2922.788,"text":"必要的即時的預算的調配在陳水扁2000年到2008年他用預算法83條的第二款經濟的理由跟第四款就是這個重大正式他有基隆河整治他有這個擴大工建有水患治理跟石門水庫的整治計劃"},{"start":2924.375,"end":2936.171,"text":"阿扁總統時期也啟用了剛剛預算法的第三款就是因應災害那時候的SARS以及921災後重建都依法來編列特別預算下一頁"},{"start":2937.31,"end":2959.843,"text":"馬英九執政的時期也依據同法的第二款跟第四款他做了振興經濟消費券的發放他做了所謂愛台十二建設的擴大攻堅他也做了流域的綜合治理同樣的馬英九前總統也依據同法的第三款在莫拉克風災之後他做了1165億的特別預算"},{"start":2962.901,"end":2984.632,"text":"所以馬英九執政的時候也有所以我是非常的不解當馬英九執政的時候他可以依據預算法83條的第4款來推動愛台12建設而在野黨不會說那是害台12建設不會行政權有權限依法我們就是監督我們不會去推翻"},{"start":2985.836,"end":2995.234,"text":"那為什麼在野黨到現在一直要把前瞻建設說成前坑建設我覺得這是完全的雙標"},{"start":2997.546,"end":3015.031,"text":"馬英九可以依預算法83條第4款來推動愛台12建設可是現在國民黨要修法把這一個單書砍掉因為現在執政的不是國民黨這就嚴重的強害了整個預算的制度嘛下一頁"},{"start":3015.951,"end":3039.87,"text":"回到現在此時此刻時空背景在2016到2024年蔡英文政府也依據預算法的第二款第四款做了前瞻建設做了易後的振興大家都領到六千塊結果國民黨還要加碼六千不夠要發一萬哦這都是同樣的法律授權的特別預算啊"},{"start":3040.834,"end":3068.088,"text":"如果國民黨要砍掉特別預算的但書那麼以後6000塊不只領不到3000塊、1000塊都沒有了因為政府行政權已經被拔卡拔手那蔡英文時期當然我們面臨了COVID-19依法也動用了紓困的預算跟疫情的防治當然因應國際的兩岸局勢蔡總統也依法"},{"start":3069.651,"end":3091.88,"text":"83條的第一款因應國防的需要也採購了我們的軍事必要的設備所以藍綠都有審計長您在這裡非常有經驗每一個只要有特別預算編列前端的監督是國會的事後端的審計專業就是你們要處理的事情每一個特別預算都是循同樣的程序然後你們同樣認真負責的寫出報告"},{"start":3094.83,"end":3113.784,"text":"給政府做參考是否因為是國民黨這層或是民進黨這層有什麼差別是否沒有差別這就是大家發揮專業本於職責有助於政府的預算制度的穩健有助於國家的良善治理下一頁現在問題來了"},{"start":3116.144,"end":3136.289,"text":"國民黨也好民眾黨也好都提案要修預算法83條有6個案子但是殊途同歸啦都是要把我剛剛秀出來的預算法83條的4款第4款刪除或者是給予要立法院同意才可進行的這種額外的但書"},{"start":3137.472,"end":3148.641,"text":"那你來看,剛才我們說這樣幾三次現在國民黨還是民眾黨要提案把預算法的83條的第4款拿掉,您的專業意見我認為啦,計畫"},{"start":3157.806,"end":3185.667,"text":"開始的計劃很重要是要加強計劃的審議沒錯這個任何的特別預算它有特別條例在前計劃項目明確然後特別預算的編傳當然要主計機關還有事後的審計機關關關都要過中間還有一關叫做國會所以你覺得計劃完備嘛所以你的意思是說去砍掉第四款這真的就是沒天良沒天利對不對也沒道理啦"},{"start":3187.506,"end":3195.221,"text":"盡量避免但是我們還是會尊重大院的決議盡量避免當然希望國民黨民眾黨委員有聽進去下一頁"},{"start":3197.335,"end":3225.268,"text":"所以特別預算如果國民黨民眾黨要用國會的多數硬把預算法83條的第4款拿掉的話其實特別預算就名存實亡了行政權就凌駕了立法權了他違反了憲法第70條立法委員不得為預算增加之決議他有相當的立法理由因為立法委員就是監督權他也違反了大法官釋字391號跟613號的行政立法權利分立運作的原則"},{"start":3226.448,"end":3235.373,"text":"所以這樣一個修法是立法權來凌駕行政權：更是壓縮了政府應變的預算彈性：就是扯國家的後腿。"},{"start":3239.901,"end":3257.531,"text":"下一頁同樣非常諷刺而也要就教於您國民黨的委員一方面要砍特別預算的法源一方面自己要提特別預算也就是國民黨的黨編提出了三個特別條例其中花東快速公路要2500億起跳國道6號東延要8000億起跳環島高鐵那是條來條去現在不知道開多少"},{"start":3264.073,"end":3278.826,"text":"同樣的理由立法權不能凌駕行政權同樣的理由任何一個交通建設剛剛講的三項建設政府應當經過評估該支持就支持我本人也沒有反對這三大建設"},{"start":3279.901,"end":3298.536,"text":"只是說行政部門您剛剛講得非常好省計長說任何一個特別預算的提出需要有完整的計劃嘛所以說這樣子用委員的用一個特別條例綁特別預算然後立法委員提出而且限期10年完成"},{"start":3299.998,"end":3322.599,"text":"這還是在執政啊他完全違反了交通專業的評估也違反今天在座的各位你們的審計專業你們的預算編轉的專業嘛所以這種違憲的大撒幣由立法委員來提出用特別條例綁特別預算本席是認為其其以為不可啊下一頁"},{"start":3323.602,"end":3348.2,"text":"這是重大公共建設必須進行的工程評估跟財務試算從第一階段的規劃設計到最後的施工其實這都搭配我們的財務計劃必須進行可行性評估必須有綜合規劃必須有基本設計然後進入細部設計然後到執行面的施工發包到完工驗收"},{"start":3349.147,"end":3375.172,"text":"如果今天國民黨的委員們用立委的提案：用特別條例：限期10年：開罰罪以5倍下：規程也都以5倍下就好了沒有精準的工程試算沒有精確的財務評估那這樣子以後大家忙不完了審計部門的同仁你們針對這三大特別預算未來寫出來的審計報告可能是這裡的10倍"},{"start":3377.799,"end":3400.268,"text":"十大本因為它前端的計劃不夠周延交通有交通的專業預算有預算的專業這就是這整個政府大家分工立法院能做的就是監督審計部門能做的就是事後的審核若是國民黨立委提出這樣的特別的條例特別預算"},{"start":3402.014,"end":3419.427,"text":"那行政院關的算了交通部關的算了審計部門你們可能也關門算了這是違反憲法的授權違反政府的預算制度違反國家重大建設應當有的完整審核"},{"start":3420.248,"end":3434.015,"text":"下頁所以我整理出來國民黨一方面提案要凍結特別條例一方面又要自己來做特別預算違反了憲法70條違反了大法官釋字391號跟613號下頁"},{"start":3437.757,"end":3451.869,"text":"以立委來提出特別預算更是：或者是特別條例：他有的還要用基金來處理違反了財政紀律法第5條、第8條新設基金都要明確地說明基金之來源"},{"start":3453.03,"end":3467.598,"text":"預算法91條立法委員所提法律案大幅增加稅出或減少稅入者應先徵詢行政院之意見指明彌補資金之來源這都有清楚的預算法財政紀律法的規範規範所以"},{"start":3470.885,"end":3490.272,"text":"我是在這裡預告啦你們要基於你們的審計專業如果讓這種違憲違反政府制度的特別條例綁特別預算或者是特別條例綁新設基金的話以後審計部門真的不敵不告不賣完了您是不是綜合答覆是不是"},{"start":3503.615,"end":3511.323,"text":"謝謝吳委員私要質詢,也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第二位,紅委員孟凱。請問。謝謝。"},{"start":3532.031,"end":3533.556,"text":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請省記者再請陳省記者備詢"},{"start":3544.178,"end":3564.83,"text":"委員好好,沈記長好沈記長在順著剛剛委員的一個詢答啦我再來確認一下預算法第83條裡面有四款的一個項目其中包括說國家的災勢或是經濟重大變故以及不定期數年或一年的重大震勢"},{"start":3565.931,"end":3586.638,"text":"那有官員、具名的官員馬上就受訪講說如果說真的預算法83條刪除第四項不定期或數年一次的重大政事的話未來國家發生大地震或者是經濟大蕭條我們當然不希望有這樣的一個可能性但如果說真的有大地震的話可不可以動用預算法第83條"},{"start":3588.7,"end":3605.596,"text":"那如果是緊急危難是不是重大災變重大災變緊急危難所以大地震的話一樣可以用預算法第83條特別預算可以動用對不對如果說有經濟大蕭條真的發生百年一見經濟大蕭條能不能用預算法第83條這個在預算裡面有"},{"start":3609.111,"end":3635.288,"text":"國家第二款嘛國家經濟重大變故嘛對不對所以換言之真的有發生百年一件的大地震或是發生百年一件的經濟大蕭條完全不受第四款如果說沒有考慮到的話一樣可以動用預算法83條是不是這樣子要符合那三款的條件是啊所以說符合剛剛本席說講的那三款條件嘛對不對所以"},{"start":3636.633,"end":3663.645,"text":"答案非常的明確了吧所以剛剛我們有委員明明這個是一個答詢的部分但是委員講了半天但是都沒有給你時間發言本席特別給你時間來發言跟回答就是預算法83條其實是特別預算可以因應如果國家假設真的有重大百年一件的大地震或者是百年一件經濟大蕭的話預算法83條也是可以因應的但是我們希望台灣風調雨順國泰民難好"},{"start":3665.646,"end":3669.816,"text":"再回來請教最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚就要補貼台電電價上漲"},{"start":3672.267,"end":3698.348,"text":"那本時有看到說之前我們在經濟委員會也有委員有詢問過主計長主計長講說今年有可能要再補助台電一千五百億一千億或一千五百億為什麼呢因為之前政府已經有補助台電不管是三千三百億不管是一千五百億或是億後特別預算五百億現在今年又在說一千億啊但主計長答詢是說依規定要等審計部審定之後才能動用"},{"start":3699.636,"end":3718.771,"text":"那我想請教目前什麼時候審計部會審計因為結算他們有一個有一個期程他們行政院那邊會4月底送過來那我們要花3個月的時間7月底送到大院那我們審定的期間7月31號會審定完成所以現在預計因為主計長已經有講說有這樣的額度所以說預計一定會有這樣的額度是嗎"},{"start":3724.956,"end":3737.728,"text":"額度要等我們審計以後因為中間我們在審計的時候多多少少會租出可能會增減收入會增減大概這樣初步他們的結算估出來有2000多億"},{"start":3739.144,"end":3754.617,"text":"有兩千多億但是這樣子多多少少扣除有可能會有一千億以上來再去做一個補貼那我想請教我們這相關來說稅入稅出也都要經過立法院來做一個確認他可以直接行政部門就補貼嗎這個要變預算"},{"start":3758.018,"end":3784.36,"text":"也要編預算嗎?要編預算不管是之前編列預算不管是用總預算或者說再編列一個特別預算總是還要再經過立法院嗎?對對對是不是?這個要租出啊所有的租出都要經過立法院是所以說我想有些奇怪啊為什麼像現在這邊討論說調漲電價然後這個政府已經講是說就一定會補助台電那好像都沒有經過立法院這當立法院完全是橡皮圖章嗎?"},{"start":3785.761,"end":3808.578,"text":"這個是他可能在行政部門的一個目前在他的在提出在討論行政部門不用考慮到立法院就對立法部門不用尊重立法部門甚至行政部門也不用考慮到我們審計單位就認為是說他現在已經有錢就可以來補貼那反正七月的時候你們一定會交出一個至少超過一千億的這個餘額來讓他們發是這樣嗎"},{"start":3812.749,"end":3839.935,"text":"這個因為他們今年的他們會做粗估結算粗估出來了有這樣的金額來 沈議長我知道你可能不好答本席看了這個這一些的報告連書面資料本席都有翻閱過其中用電的部分我想你可能審計部門也很重視跟這個掌握我想請教一下現在經濟部這邊一直講說要大家當個聰明的用電人挑選時間來用電說這樣可以比較便宜"},{"start":3842.256,"end":3856.117,"text":"那我們有沒有帶頭以身作則、審計單位有沒有去了解過去到現在台電推了那麼久或經濟部推了那麼久的智慧電表我們所有的中央機關到底有多少機關使用智慧電表審計部門有沒有掌握"},{"start":3857.559,"end":3884.596,"text":"有沒有要求我們對於台電的這些電費的問題我們是有查過像它的電表我們有多少個中央機關有裝這個智慧電表這個部分我在我的手上沒有這些資料我們有沒有要求中央機關至少帶頭要節約用電因為現在經濟部門告訴我們就是說民眾可以當個聰明的用電人只要你裝智慧電表可以比較便宜"},{"start":3885.276,"end":3904.674,"text":"那我想是說有多少的智慧電表是我們中央機關自己有裝那照理講審計單位是最後把關預算的部分我們公堂當用則用當審則審能夠省下一塊錢是一塊錢嘛所以審計部門過去到現在有沒有要求中央機關帶頭以身作則是不是應該要裝智慧電表"},{"start":3905.933,"end":3921.285,"text":"我們有要把這個智慧電表希望盡量趕快普及因為這個不只中央各單位連所有的商家所有的我們的民眾這樣的話對於我們的我們現在普及率有多少"},{"start":3924.619,"end":3942.47,"text":"普及率因為我們有給他意見啦當時的情況因為那個智慧電表啊所以就您的了解我們現在普及率因為不大謝謝啦 沈議長您講得很委婉啦其實現在智慧電表的普及率是非常低啦"},{"start":3943.117,"end":3965.009,"text":"那我會提出來就是認為是說我們審計單位其實真的可以要求我們的中央主管機關用電也好都可以以身作則而不是嘴巴一直叫民眾當聰明的用電人但實際上自己沒有以身作則來那個再請教一下審計長食安問題最近也大家非常的關心"},{"start":3966.072,"end":3990.725,"text":"我們在省紀部2022年也就是民國111年度就已經有報告指出國際食品警訊監控機制行事多年了但是在111年也發生過冰淇淋、泡麵等驗出致癌物那當時就有講是說食藥署沒有掌握問題產品於國內流通的情況這是省紀部的一個報告"},{"start":3992.028,"end":4019.842,"text":"去年又發生了美國驗出A肝病毒而有這個邊境管制的一個部分那我想請教這個今年又有所謂的蘇丹紅的狀況那到底過去這兩年省紀部111年就已經有提出說衛福部食藥署應該要去做改善要加強警訊監控並且滾動檢討標準作業流程到底食安層出不窮"},{"start":4021.061,"end":4023.652,"text":"省紀部不能夠接受我們現在行政部門這樣子怠惰的行為嗎?"},{"start":4024.585,"end":4050.205,"text":"我們今年113年因為食安問題關心民眾的生命還有健康很大所以我們今年113年我們現在在查整個食安從食安五環每個從沿途控管重建生產管理還有加強查驗還有加重廠商的責任食安五環是什麼時候提出來105年"},{"start":4052.143,"end":4071.573,"text":"105年2016年嘛那過去民進黨執政的8年的時間呢到現在2024年的還在檢討說食安五環你有沒有印象當中過去這幾年好像每年我們的審計報告裡面一定會有一則一章一節就是討論到是說衛福部也好或是我們相關單位的食安問題要精進檢討"},{"start":4074.738,"end":4102.984,"text":"尤其你的2023年還有講說下半年要啟動食安專案調查這是媒體上的報導你這邊有講到下半年要啟動食安專案調查結果蘇丹紅事件就爆發了那蘇丹紅還是親口承認講說這不是個案這個是系統性的犯罪系統性的食安問題那行政部門到底有沒有把我們審計的建議提醒要求當一回事"},{"start":4103.632,"end":4117.25,"text":"我們索案問題我會列為我們審計部查到改善為止我們有這個決心沈記長您有這個決心多久了過去有沒有這個決心"},{"start":4118.88,"end":4142.601,"text":"過去有111年的時候有這個決心2022年有這個決心結果2023年又有美國事件2023年有這個決心2024年有蘇丹紅事件2024年有這個決心行政部門他有可能520之後官員拍拍屁股走人我們的決心在哪裡我們的要求在哪裡那我們有沒有送相關的監察院來去做一個調查報告這個都會送"},{"start":4144.244,"end":4170.769,"text":"會送?您說的?對所以蘇丹紅事件預計要送誰?這個監察案已經啟動調查什麼時候會出來?這個我們6月底會出來因為我們7月會弄損我報告出來所以整個蘇安的問題我們會從蘇安武漢的每個面向把它找出來慢慢共同和行政部門把這個問題看看能不能做一個解決做一個解決,非常好"},{"start":4171.738,"end":4201.398,"text":"沈議長本席站在這邊跟您我們其實在討論每一個問題都是站在同一陣線食安問題我雖然身為在野黨委員但是我從來都不希望發生因為發生了食安問題受苦受傷受害的就是我們台灣民眾也因此能夠做好把關這當然應該要做好把關但為什麼今天會再次提出來就是因為當我看到我們審計部門同仁做出那麼一大本而且這只是一本喔其實我們有上下策喔"},{"start":4201.698,"end":4202.318,"text":"陳議長我會記住你的決心這句話"},{"start":4226.65,"end":4252.379,"text":"再來您今天的口頭報告裡面洋洋灑灑但是您的第一個最重要的報告你列為是哪一個我們在做關鍵審計就包括食安、包括少子化、包括...非常好第一個少子化少子化推動計畫我們從107年推動到113年這過去6年時間總共花了多少公務預算"},{"start":4254.249,"end":4267.278,"text":"兩千多億四千八百五十一億差了一倍四千八百多億的公務預算來針對少子化的對策計畫結果我們的生育率"},{"start":4269.12,"end":4289.708,"text":"從投入的時候106年是1.13人逐步降到110年是0.98人到111年創新低來到0.87人4000多億花下去結果反而我們的出生率不進反退變成111年的時候只有0.87人"},{"start":4292.001,"end":4308.911,"text":"審計部裡面的資料你們也寫得很好阿兩大重點阿一、計畫著重在家庭經濟支柱跟營造友善的家庭職場環境但是這個是對於已婚或是有小孩的可是對於未婚族群的關注不足"},{"start":4309.636,"end":4337.592,"text":"就是說已婚或有小孩的一直著重一直丟入資源但是未婚的連結婚都不敢結婚你何來奢望他能夠生小孩這是審計報告的第一點第二點計劃由衛福部跟教育部輪流擔任計劃窗口國人不婚晚婚沒有主責單位結果相關部會在報告裡面只針對執行的產出後續進度跟未經之夜沒有著墨待處理事項甚至還寫零"},{"start":4339.261,"end":4363.557,"text":"那我想請教六年過去了今年要做一個結案少子化的對策計畫今年要做一個結案四千多億花了結果我們到現在還在討論是說到底哪一個單位要去主責是衛福部也好還是教育部也好那還有國人晚婚未婚的情況沒有主責單位沈記長四千多億給行政部門丟了丟了開了沒了怎麼解釋"},{"start":4369.662,"end":4377.008,"text":"當然知道複雜所以我們花了四千多億不是四千多塊不是四千多萬是四千多億"},{"start":4390.459,"end":4414.838,"text":"很複雜沒有錯6年的時間給你行政部門了省紀部也做出報告了你自己的報告講是說行政部門沒有主責單位結果你現在在幫行政部門講話你在講說很複雜然後你要講說盡量我剛剛講你是學數字科學的人怎麼會接那麼多文青的字眼怎麼那麼多這種形容詞來形容勒"},{"start":4417.457,"end":4432.075,"text":"這個做一個在行政部門在工作上我曾經在行政部門工作過所以都有他的難處但是我們我們損失部一定在後面一定會加強督促沈警長"},{"start":4434.881,"end":4448.456,"text":"在一個位置上就做一個位置的事你現在是審計長你是要幫人民把關預算那麼厚的一個計畫書那麼厚的一個審計書本席可以把它看完就是因為我重視你們的一個意見就是因為我覺得是說你們意見是專業的但是"},{"start":4462.842,"end":4473.939,"text":"謝謝紅委員孟凱的詢問也謝謝陳省記者的備詢接下來我們請登記第三位張委員齊凱詢問"},{"start":4518.715,"end":4529.859,"text":"我們先來談監察院長陳菊的舉手之勞大可不必陳菊的舉手之勞大可不必我先請教你"},{"start":4546.182,"end":4564.859,"text":"陳菊說叫你們生計部會設發言人,你照辦了嗎?我們本來就有發言人你是說陳菊不知道你們有發言人叫你設發言人嗎?應該知道應該知道,那為什麼叫你們設發言人?這段時間你們每次提出來的這個決算報告一晚都是拍手叫好的啊"},{"start":4566.343,"end":4593.793,"text":"很好的監督政府的這個決算說是什麼接壁的這個秘籍對不對接壁的這個神書所以對你們很肯定啊可是相對的陳菊、陳院長說叫你要設發言人要出來幫忙辯護他不曉得那個決定報告是你們寫的嗎你們幫民主民高勘緊了荷包為什麼叫你們出來否定自己的講法呢沒提啊因為對於我們的損盡啊有不同的解讀所以他是善意提醒"},{"start":4595.356,"end":4617.49,"text":"他是善意善意提前他不曉得政治力跟政黨不能夠介入獨立的這個審計權嗎?這不是干議了他是個民主前輩陳菊是個台灣民主的前輩他怎麼可以干議獨立的這個審計權啊?前輩我給你看這個你應該比我熟悉啊審計法第10條怎麼說?審計人員依法獨立行使其審計職權不受干涉對不對?對了對不對?"},{"start":4625.465,"end":4646.932,"text":"為了怕監察院跟審計部前者不分﹐受到﹐審計前受到干擾﹐監察院跟審計部的前責範圍原則﹐明明確確寫著﹐監察委員不得影響審計人員﹐獨立行使審計前﹐是否這樣?是所以任何的監察委員﹐"},{"start":4647.728,"end":4671.92,"text":"跟陳菊他怎麼可以去干涉你們怎麼可以政治力或者要你們設什麼發言人呢?要你們出來講自己已經提出的這個結算報告呢?他是善意提醒希望我們有些各度解讀的地方啊能夠對外有一個說明好,謝謝你我知道你人比較閒聊你一直在幫他講話可是你要捍衛我們所有審計人員這個獨立好不好?好"},{"start":4674.847,"end":4702.145,"text":"這段時間立法院跟媒體對你們是非常肯定的不是只有JB的這個JB的這個密集這個事情而已你們幫人民勘緊了荷包幫人民省了很多的錢人民是感謝你的人民會挺住你好不好謝謝不只捍衛自己審計部的前線我們的審計人員是優秀的一定捍衛他們獨立行使之前跟他們專練好接下來我們輕鬆一點接下來我們幫我們的朱先生我們的呂范玲E6韓國瑜教訓一下"},{"start":4704.417,"end":4707.74,"text":"現在韓國瑜韓院長辦公的所在是在以前舊北俄尼的舊教室嗎?"},{"start":4717.046,"end":4738.942,"text":"現在的日本人以前就是北二女以前有北一女對不對中山女高現在叫北二女其實她以前叫北三女北二女在哪裡現在大家出來除了議場看到的立法院的這個馬蹄形這個以前是北二女的學生上課的地方所以"},{"start":4740.157,"end":4762.224,"text":"韓國瑜、韓院長、保安、周恩來他們所有的工作人員他們是在舊教室以前你校的這個教室裡面辦公可是相對你看到的唐鳳立在上班他早上去訂好新光大樓在上班這個落差是不是非常大"},{"start":4763.314,"end":4779.784,"text":"事實上不是只有世衛發展部、目前為止NCC、有些辦公室、工程會都能做到裡面對不對今天本席做個倡議有沒有可能現在在外面租辦公室的我前面清查過差不多18億左右"},{"start":4781.468,"end":4802.904,"text":"這些在外面租辦公室的想辦法去找一個中級的辦公室找一個像荒廢或者閒置的學校搬進去以後每年我們至少省十幾億的租金好不好好我們一起來努力好我們把這個錢省下來為人民勘緊荷包把平時平高省下來好好謝謝委員新規定來我們詳細的來看省紀部發生的問題"},{"start":4806.667,"end":4834.276,"text":"你看速發部的我們回到速發部的四個大問題剛講我們立法院用以前北二里的一個教室可是呢速發部去找了地厚臺北市租金第二高的星光大樓他的租金太貴現在粉絲去追又發現一個新的問題了一本價一年半對不對用了多少錢什麼時候下期買七千萬對不對"},{"start":4837.102,"end":4857.033,"text":"七千萬標市一年應四千六百六十七萬結果啦我最新追查到了一今年延月份又去簽了一個六年三億的租金是否可以領?如果三億用買就好啊誰可以租?是不是?三億都可以在新北市很多地方買新房子啦"},{"start":4858.052,"end":4868.879,"text":"幹麻拿去租?這是第一個大問題。第二個,進井細清六百六十七萬已經太少了。他簽了又多的一年花了人民納稅錢333萬,這個要不要處理?"},{"start":4874.568,"end":4897.708,"text":"我們這一個啊我們還是因為其實你要租房子啊要有要經過國產史看看有沒有閒置的房地啦我們現在的閒置房地啊還是非常多啦還有新北地我們要替市衛部唐鳳說一個話啦這其實你看現在有人在開槍事實上任何的暴力我們都是譴責的暴力不能夠解決問題那老實講"},{"start":4900.719,"end":4925.714,"text":"樹發部跟唐鳳BTC租地厚星光大樓這麼貴的房子,中央也有責任啊!租界署,還有你剛講的國有財產局,他應該前面去清查啊!像現在很好啊!現在舊的財政部的大樓他新的搬出去之後,舊的他整修完之後,補強完之後國產署現在就在裡面辦公啊!就省了很多錢,對不對?第一個我剛講的,方會的學校、退場的學校趕快去找"},{"start":4926.363,"end":4953.005,"text":"若當初中央是這樣幫事務發布事務發布就不會發生這個問題所以我們等一下有一個重要責任我們等一下幫事務發布找新家我去追了這個問題後來唐鳳跟事務發布也跟齊凱講跟本席講他們的合約裡面訂了一條只要他們有找到合適租金比較低廉的地方或者有中繼的地方他們半年前跟星光大樓講他們就可以搬出去所以我們來努力幫被罵的臭頭的"},{"start":4954.674,"end":4982.283,"text":"數位部、數位發展部找新家好不好好數化部現在還有一個大的問題我跟大家討論一下他之前說要搬,搬了溝通不好所以台北市本錢花了1.8億蓋了南門的中繼市場對不對結果你看花了1.8億然後用了四年新的美輪美奐的被拆掉了我覺得這個行政責任當初溝通不良這個審計部應該要去追一下好不好"},{"start":4983.427,"end":5008.865,"text":"那最嚴重的問題來了來我給大家看一下數位發展部現在最嚴重的問題是什麼地方就是他的租金以往就是他的總分啊主席你知道他的公設多少嗎他去租這個地後星光大樓他的公設多少42那他等於是有58%啊結果唐鳳還拍了片說什麼他的裝潢一坪才兩萬塊"},{"start":5010.765,"end":5040.285,"text":"你應該扣掉那42%對不對我們給他看一下他如果實際的是多少錢我們看一下他本來談論拍片說是不到2萬塊事實上你扣掉42%以後他實際的裝潢費用一半超過400塊這會不會太浪費人民人民的民脂民膏了好我們現在拉大來看我們來看一下本席去清查了113年度所有在外面租用辦公室的單位我們來看一下"},{"start":5042.119,"end":5065.798,"text":"市委發展部才排第六?市委發展部被罵得半死的市委發展部才排第六啊?第一個是哪裡?外交部,外交部當然這九億多九億五千多萬台幣部分是外賓做辦公室對不對?那個是外館嘛那就要買啊對不對?對應該要買啊我們有要求他齁"},{"start":5067.538,"end":5089.318,"text":"所以有,審計部有要求嘛有要求想辦法把他九千把九億都在外管的這個錢把他省下來你買了以後你外交如果都很順當然一直用嘛租金就省下來嘛對不對第一個哪天要賣還是賺錢啊所以外管的這部分很清楚就要趕快買好那裡面的我們看一下看下一張"},{"start":5091.426,"end":5092.666,"text":"本席很明確的倡議"},{"start":5112.293,"end":5141.309,"text":"世衛發展部已經講了只要給他合適的中繼站他半年前提出來之後他就可以搬進去所以我們趕快幫他找新家到哪邊找新家有兩個方法第一舊的財政部大樓他已經補強了現在可以再用10年對不對那現在是國產國產署國產署在裡面對不對如果早一點的話就給世衛部或給其他單位用好不好好第二個前面清查現在哪些學校是方會的"},{"start":5142.692,"end":5166.325,"text":"學歷法院不要只有我們院長在學校辦公以後中央部會包括NCC、工程會甚至消防署這些在外面出辦公室的搬到學校去辦公有沒有我們有清一下也有這樣的一個那透過這樣的努力我們一年至少可以省11的租金民脂民膏我們現在努力好接下來要談一個特別預算的問題對吳思堯民進黨的立委"},{"start":5169.602,"end":5190.678,"text":"特別提到這問題我覺得他可能沒有好好看你們的結算報告也沒有看立法院的公報吧新北電你們每一年的審計報告裡面提了很多特別預算腐爛的事情啊特別就是我講的啊都沒計畫沒有計畫就亂編錢亂花錢啊他怎麼可以要求預算法的地"},{"start":5193.57,"end":5209.078,"text":"83條的第4款不能修呢?第一個前面3款已經夠用了戰爭或者是緊急事情或者重大的災變第4條本身就是空白授權嘛第4條本來就要刪掉不只是審計部的審查報告裡面很多的例子清清楚楚"},{"start":5210.205,"end":5231.21,"text":"林進棟為醫警的財經專家、藤白賢、喜天才、阿扁、陳水扁當立委的時候﹐到現在的柯建民﹐很多立法委員、民進黨立法委員都提過要削掉這第四款啊。為什麼第四款不拿掉呢?我們明確來看,你看,特別醫生的現在已經變成什麼了呢?"},{"start":5232.83,"end":5262.011,"text":"吞噬民脂民膏最大的黑洞?國債債台高築最大的這個元兇呢?我去做了一個統計為立定回告蔡英文事任這個總統執政,我們現在的債務六條多對不對?六條兩千多億其中將近四帳都是透過特別預算取債來的特別是剛講那個第四款的那個空白收錢最嚴重的也就是你們常提出來有很多缺失的我們再看一下蔡英文任內"},{"start":5264.465,"end":5292.885,"text":"提的這個特評預算是所有從蔣中正到蔣經國歷任的總統所有最多的這沒有腐爛的問題嗎我們看下一張光是結算報告裡面看到我看到很多例子前瞻基礎建設這個條例裡面本來軌道建設經費分價變多少七千兩百億對不對結果後來經過審計部的報告經過立法委員去追降到多少降到一千九百零三億的會上離間嗎"},{"start":5295.595,"end":5314.565,"text":"基隆輕軌這更離譜了蔡英文說去跟基隆說什麼我要編81的基隆輕軌2020年可以通車結果到了2023年都沒有做跳票了變成輕軌變成要做捷運500、450而已到後來又增加到多少697億"},{"start":5317.346,"end":5323.11,"text":"這個有計劃嗎?現在不是阿,現在特別預算就是被濫用阿亂丟出來,亂編又亂花再看下一張,你看平和公路本價變多少?70百點百億,一下暴增到77.92億,前瞻旅館要3000給81億"},{"start":5346.993,"end":5373.212,"text":"這個增加了幾百倍啊新竹棒球場你看天母棒球場整修才用了八千萬新竹棒球場一下用了十二億還弊案不斷這個特別預算預算法的八十三條的第四款是不是真的要刪掉這一個是不是確定前面三款已經夠用了對不對後面這次是一個空白授權嘛來我們看下一張"},{"start":5374.892,"end":5393.491,"text":"他嚴重在什麼地方每一篇這個法提出來以後他都弄一個特別條例我們對預算都這麼熟悉的人他有本來公共債務跟財政基地有兩條非常重要的紅線第一條公債法的第五條的第七項就是所謂的債務的這個流量結果你看到"},{"start":5395.58,"end":5409.947,"text":"中央總預算跟特別預算每年的舉債額度不得超過其總額的這15%他先把這條紅線拿掉了不嚴守財政紀律第一條排除預算法第23條23條說什麼不能夠拿舉債跟車借作為經常性的支出對不對"},{"start":5414.056,"end":5435.751,"text":"結果現在每一年都用了一堆的這個取債方式就是因為用了特別預算嘛所以本席非常明確的要求來我們看最後一張刪除特別預算第83條第4款空白授權就是那一條不定期或數年一次的重大正式而且要有計劃才有預算可行性評估一定要合理可用另外你一直在強調一點不要影響到地方的財政可以嗎"},{"start":5444.104,"end":5455.611,"text":"所以第一,我們把天下豬的辦公室那十一省下來。第二個,特別一頓空賣壽田要趕快把它堵起來,不要變成人民生產稅錢一直漏出去,每一年漏掉一兩千億,對不起民眾好不好?我們共產黨要努力!"},{"start":5472.512,"end":5488.759,"text":"接下來我們請接下來我們請登記第4號陳委員培餘詢問好謝謝主席那有請沈記長謝謝再請陳審計長備詢"},{"start":5500.219,"end":5522.021,"text":"委員好好 審計長早安這是第一次有機會跟審計長做交流之前有聽其他的立法院前輩提過關於立法委員的質詢或是看審計部的報告可以讓行政單位更加認真看待所以我們在審計部的報告裡面我們要先肯定審計部同仁的認真工作但是我們在這個相關的報告裡面我們時間有限我們趕快來看一下"},{"start":5522.681,"end":5544.842,"text":"在你們的報告當中關於這張投影片上面談到的少子化以及其延伸問題的因應對策其中我框紅線這一條你們寫到少子化延伸的對策其中你們放在第一個叫做提升婚育成效及婚育價值觀陳記長我想問一下什麼叫做婚育價值觀"},{"start":5547.568,"end":5561.057,"text":"就是說希望能夠有家庭觀念大家能夠結婚我們是希望多多結婚對於我們就有機會小孩就會多生一點"},{"start":5562.548,"end":5581.713,"text":"陳記長你覺得真的是只有結婚才能生小孩嗎?或者是說把少子化的這個責任歸咎在大家不想結婚如果我們讓一般的民眾看到這個報告您覺得對於這些不想結婚或是結了婚不想生小孩的人他們看到這件事情他們心裡面的感受是如何?"},{"start":5582.293,"end":5594.288,"text":"我們是多面向因為結婚了也有生小孩的那個我們是多面向每一個面向我們都要去考慮才能夠因為要解這個問題我剛剛講錯綜混雜所以行政院已經請國科會做實證分析"},{"start":5598.954,"end":5628.594,"text":"是,我們剛剛也聽到在前面委員的這個詢問當中你也提到相關的分析可是我要再次的提醒喔在我們跟非常多的第一線或者是民間團體討論的過程當中我要再次的強調同時我相信這也是執政黨很重要的立場基本上育兒的責任絕對不會只是母親的責任或者是嫂子話的關係跟婚姻之間的關係我覺得都還有需要辯證討論的地方但是因為剛剛您說有相關的研究要進行我相信後續會再提供更先進的或者是"},{"start":5629.735,"end":5643.529,"text":"不要把這兩件事情綁在一起了這樣子感覺讓人家覺得很保守的報告了我們相信我們非常非常期待好不好但是我們時間有限了我就是先簡單的提醒一下但是我們後續還是要看到還是要肯定這個審計部提到關於這個少子化"},{"start":5645.351,"end":5662.201,"text":"社家屬補助辦理建構0-20歲兒童社區公共托育計畫執行效率不彰公共化教保服務和強化准公共機制供需失衡沒有提供延長照顧服務以及教保服務人力結構不符合規定"},{"start":5663.801,"end":5690.029,"text":"這確實是我目前在第一線所收集到大家對於所謂友善育兒環境職場大家在照顧小孩或是決定要不要生養小孩或是生養小孩之後要不要回到職場繼續貢獻自己的專業跟人力這個部分確實是很多人的考量所以這個部分我們看到審計部提出相關的糾正我們覺得很重要但是後續也要拜託審計部持續緊盯相關行政機關好這個部分可不可以請您回應一下"},{"start":5691.929,"end":5699.019,"text":"最終改善情形好那另外一個關於這個勞動部你們剛有提到部分但是我要說我們要"},{"start":5700.859,"end":5724.697,"text":"鄭重的建議一個很重要的事情其實後續不管是托嬰、托幼的需求還有勞動部關於友善職場的部分其實有很多事情都要做包括我們也跟部長討論過如何遠距工作彈性工時我覺得這都是目前非常多年輕的家庭他們所需要的所以我們也希望不是口號如同您剛說持續緊盯好接下來我們來看一下另外關於這個運動的部分"},{"start":5727.301,"end":5753.434,"text":"我們在你們的報告裡面看到你們提到體育業務的糾正其中你們提到了足球六年計畫不知道這個部分您自己有沒有印象你們說推動足球六年計畫尚未達到世界排名的目標要持續精進國家隊的主訓參賽還有輔導企業球隊經營我想要問一下您覺得所謂的世界排名的目標放在這麼前面您的想法是為什麼為什麼會以這個為目標"},{"start":5754.895,"end":5778.602,"text":"因為我們是看到體育署有把這個列為目標我們的所有的損盡的那個依據都會根據這個計畫他們定的計畫主標給他給予提醒好那也就是說當一個國家主管體育的主管機關體育署他們認為增進國家排名是主要目標那我們就來看可是目前世界排名他們說沒有提升"},{"start":5779.102,"end":5808.485,"text":"企業球隊目前他們都是屬地經營可是目前在台灣屬地經營球隊經營只有一隊可是如果要精進所謂國家隊這些目標我們來看一下最大的困境是什麼好這個有一個六年足球計畫其實比起世界排名我們在基層或是在民間甚至在所有運動員還有包含兒少運動員還有積極參與投入自己家庭資源的家長身上我們看到另外一個更嚴重的問題我這邊務必要跟沈記長分享"},{"start":5809.045,"end":5836.534,"text":"到底足球推動資源的投入是不是真的花在倒口上是我們要更關心的我們看到有一個足球六年計畫甚至針對這個足球六年計畫民間的非常多團體他們還自己辦相關的檢討會還分享他們在各地第一線所聽到的一些困境表達他們不滿的聲音不知道這個檢討報告沈進長你們這邊有沒有看過或聽說過那為什麼要加入民間的聲音這個部分我們想要請您分享看看您的觀點是什麼"},{"start":5836.994,"end":5858.311,"text":"因為我們看到民間有出來有一些聲音出來是所以我們會對這一個現在正在了解好正在了解那所以你手上有相關的報告嗎關於這個民間的聲音檢討的聲音有那沒關係我們辦公室有我們後續提供給好我們後續提供給你們分給你們參考但我要說一下為什麼這件事情這麼這麼的重要"},{"start":5860.146,"end":5877.839,"text":"體育署在這個計畫裡面他們說要提升參賽隊伍數量的KPI這個好像是一般行政機關很容易做他們也覺得好像比較好做的事情他們創造了一個好像國內足球隊蓬勃發展的這個狀態我暫且不要說它是假象怎麼說呢"},{"start":5878.499,"end":5883.343,"text":"我們看到另外一個狀況是為了衝這個球隊參賽數量的KPI他們甚至有的學校是用籃球隊、田徑隊來報名參加足球比賽拿這個相關的補助以至於到後面相關的決算遠遠超過預算"},{"start":5893.973,"end":5913.27,"text":"可是回頭看一個計劃一個政府部門執行了6年的足球計劃他的相關目標、手段、成果都完全對不起來更不要說我剛剛已經跟您分享所有民間自主投入的基層的資源從家長到小孩到教練到很多的企業大家都努力基層自立自強"},{"start":5913.931,"end":5934.385,"text":"可是到最後我們看到這個國家足球六年發展計畫﹐卻有可能成為個別業務組的小金庫﹐他們如何看待手上這些經費﹐還有民間社區俱樂部正在蓬勃發展﹐但是社區俱樂部這件事情﹐卻沒有在相關體育署的眼睛的政策視野發展當中﹐這個部分不知道您有沒有知道相關的亂象"},{"start":5936.296,"end":5959.565,"text":"這個整個我們的審計啊以他的成效他跑偏了我們一定會給他意見好那如果也就是說可是如果不在你們的認知當中或是不在他們的政策規劃當中確實就很如同您說的不在你們的審計對象當中所以我們要再次強調目前這個六年足球計畫是執行到112年底我這邊要強烈的拜託審計部在112年度的審計報告當中要持續關注"},{"start":5964.207,"end":5968.449,"text":"相關足球六年發展計畫或其他體育署相關足球發展計畫?"},{"start":5979.537,"end":5995.167,"text":"另外我們提到我們看到這個審計部裡面還有另外一個我們辦公室一直以來都非常非常關心而且我們不是只有關心我們做了非常多的事情就是關於兒少自殺死亡率這件事情不知道沈記長你有沒有看過類似的新聞或是你知不知道目前在民間在學校這個現象"},{"start":5996.776,"end":6003.658,"text":"關於兒少自殺率逐年提升?你們的意見說國人自殺標準化死亡率尚未達成預期目標且兒少族群自殺問題漸趨嚴重你們還說自殺通報個案數逐年增加自殺關懷訪視員的案量負荷沉重"},{"start":6023.283,"end":6046.477,"text":"到目前為止自殺防治法沒有規定擬定全國自殺防治綱領報行政院核定實施這個是你們提出的問題對嗎對好這個先要謝謝審計部認真的工作但是我們要說相關的問題提出來都很棒因為對我們來說其實讓孩子們安心長大這個環境真的不是只是學校老師的責任也不是單一家庭的責任"},{"start":6047.197,"end":6073.899,"text":"過往大家都認為小孩健康的成長讓小孩好好的長大成為一個社會上有用的人力彷彿都是個別家庭的責任但是我們都知道現在社會環境的複雜已經不是一個單一家庭或者是在一個學校求學階段就能夠面對這麼多複雜的議題孩子們出了學校拿起手機他們對於數位接觸的熟悉還有我們大人對於青少年文化的陌生這個部分我們辦公室甚至之前我們主動請衛福部來開會主動請教育部來開會"},{"start":6076.201,"end":6091.338,"text":"甚至跨部會來開會那我們就想如同您剛剛說的面對少子化我們要做研議報告我們辦公室甚至主動找了國科會中研院可不可以啟動相關的研究報告可是我們得到的答案目前都是模擬兩可的"},{"start":6092.239,"end":6112.04,"text":"好像沒有人願意積極的承擔或是把這個事情當成是主要的業務範圍但是我必須說這個現象真的越來越嚴重所以這邊我特別提出來要拜託審計部在後續對於相關部會的兒少自殺死因回溯調查可不可以提出相關更具體的建議給予這些行政機關更積極的作為"},{"start":6115.087,"end":6140.867,"text":"這個部分我們會照委員的意思我們了解了整個前面的情況以後也會請教委員我們的意見是不是中衡後續這邊我們辦公室也很樂意在跟審計部保持積極的討論因為如同我剛剛說的我們辦公室自己都已經發動了這麼多的會議討論就是希望可以從公部門的資源來協助解決這個問題因為兒少自殺不是只是孩子沒有了生命"},{"start":6141.307,"end":6158.9,"text":"對於每個家庭對於每個學校老師來說都是一個悲傷的故事所以我們希望這些悲傷的故事不要再發生所以跨部會的事情後續也要拜託審計部積極的緊盯相關的行政單位的行政效率可以嗎可以好謝謝委員我們會努力最後一個我們來看一下"},{"start":6160.28,"end":6185.038,"text":"神器長你有去過這個球場嗎?沒有這個是高雄的男子足球場那這個是我的助理因為我生命中真的從來沒有看過這個足球比賽他第一場帶我去看的是台灣隊對於這個吉爾吉斯隊那我們當天的比賽其實表現成績不是太好可是我在現場我要說我看到球員盡心盡力在這個球場上揮灑可是這個球場有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":6185.979,"end":6205.118,"text":"這是當時前瞻計畫規劃要建6個相關的球場可是到了後來只蓋了這個球場不知道沈記長您知道這個事情嗎對,有所了解好,那為什麼只蓋6個只蓋了一個後續的經費都到哪裡去了你們相關報告裡面你有印象到底提到了些什麼嗎"},{"start":6206.557,"end":6219.382,"text":"這個部分因為有的進度落後有的規劃不足不淺所以就有檢討我們在整個如果足球對我們東方人來講是一個很好的一個運動我們會來努力"},{"start":6222.023,"end":6239.06,"text":"但是我們所知其實相關的縣市政府或者是相關的部會應該沒有把這個錢拿去規劃這個球場到底發生了什麼事情我覺得審計部這邊要主動的追蹤因為對於大家來說我剛剛已經在前面體育的題目裡我已經提到台灣的足球社區俱樂部蓬勃的發展"},{"start":6240.221,"end":6259.538,"text":"他們已經參考很多國外社區俱樂部的做法所以很多的家長、很多的孩子自己投入時間、自己投入資源他們不打算走學校體育班的系統他們花很多的時間自己練球可是光是要有一個合乎國際比賽規格的場地在台灣就有困難更何況我們告訴我們自己我們要發展成一個體育大國、一個足球大國"},{"start":6260.138,"end":6277.907,"text":"這怎麼可能所以我剛剛想要再一次請省機長看這個球場而且說實話我們去到這個球場看到甚至這個上排喔他連燈光的部分金費都不夠我還問我助理說為什麼有那個燈光的架子可是卻沒有燈光在下面就只是先把它架好可是因為錢不夠都沒有辦法再往下做那"},{"start":6278.667,"end":6293.872,"text":"除了這個球場自己本身有問題之外後續其他或是之前規劃蓋球場也都沒有真的蓋出來所以這部分真的要拜託審計部積極的去糾正去盯緊到底發生了什麼事情或者是拿來本來說好要拿去蓋球場的錢到底到哪裡去了"},{"start":6294.961,"end":6310.082,"text":"這個球場我們會派人到整個屬地了解以後給委員提出也不是只有這個球場還有我剛剛說本來要再六個嘛那幾個啊這個經費啊他的這怎麼使用我們也會整個了解"},{"start":6310.362,"end":6339.233,"text":"好 這個部分也就是說看起來在你們的報告裡面是沒有提到這個部分所以要拜託審計部積極的去緊盯這些事情所以簡單來說我今天提的關於少子化的部分還有兒少自殺需要你們跨部會還有體育署的相關足球發展業務還有還有剛剛我講的這個足球場前瞻計畫足球場也就是說所有這些預算它到最後都是落在服務台灣未來的主人翁就是所有的兒少身上當我們標榜我們要在意兒少的福利我們要在意兒少的權益"},{"start":6339.753,"end":6353.883,"text":"也要拜除行政機關他們有相關的規劃跟政策執行之外也要拜託審計部這邊要積極緊盯相關的計劃執行好謝謝委員我們會這個部分會照委員的意思來努力好謝謝以上謝謝陳記長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員培餘的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第5號林委員思明詢問"},{"start":6375.728,"end":6395.516,"text":"好 謝謝院長 我們請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長沈記長好 那沈記長我就直接進入主題我想我們在前瞻的第三期中編列將近79億的綠能建設預算"},{"start":6398.339,"end":6409.151,"text":"我們要達到的目標包含電網提升：能源轉型：還有綠能技術建設開發等而這些目標包含有台電的經營效能"},{"start":6410.151,"end":6431.791,"text":"那剛好這個都是本席過去一再質疑我們台電年年虧損與政府能源政策適當的原因我們現在我想我們看到電價在漲今年我們還繼續要補助台電1000億加上我們經濟部王美花部長也證實我們再生能源的發電佔比"},{"start":6433.813,"end":6457.864,"text":"打20%的這個政策目標在2025年顯然沒有辦法達成現在預估要在2026年的10月才能夠達成那因此我們很明顯的可以看出來前瞻計畫的綠能建設花費到現在我們還是看不到有這個顯著的一個效益那對於台電"},{"start":6458.84,"end":6481.841,"text":"政府也先前連續兩年透過預算先後編列了補助台電共2500億而其實這2500億我認為也是一種變相的特別預算更不用說我們在一後的特別預算中我們也編列了500億來補助台電所以本席要請問我們審計長第一"},{"start":6486.11,"end":6501.115,"text":"預算法第83條關於特別預算編列的規定﹐對於用這些變相的特別預算去補助台電﹐這樣是合理的嗎?這樣的持續補助﹐台電的虧損﹐卻還是繼續擴大。審計長您認為﹐這樣的變相補助﹐是否應該要停止?請審計長先回答"},{"start":6513.803,"end":6535.052,"text":"我是希望臺電要強化經營體質加強開源節流因為臺電的虧損原因多端原因有很多第一個設電的電價都低於成本第二個"},{"start":6535.7,"end":6535.96,"text":"對於台電連年虧損"},{"start":6563.001,"end":6587.327,"text":"到底如何能夠什麼時候才能夠停止如果能源政策不加以修正的話是不是我們每年還是看到台電的赤字年年還是虧損都要靠我們用編列相關的預算來去做一個補助所以看到這樣的情況站在審計部的立場你要如何的來做對台電做出建議"},{"start":6589.361,"end":6599.132,"text":"這個因為剛剛講嘛如果你的售價低於成本他要賺錢就很難"},{"start":6601.004,"end":6620.974,"text":"那為什麼售價會低於成本呢當然是原因很多所以這個綠能政策的燃料採購策略是怎麼樣你的怎麼樣管理怎麼樣多很多也有剛剛講的綠能的這方面但是綠能啊"},{"start":6621.494,"end":6649.412,"text":"是一個現在是一個欺世因為現在是要往這方面檢探這邊走這個氣候變遷很厲害所以這個這個綠能是也是我們現在大家一起全世界各國在努力的目標那當然我們就講到說因為這個是造成台電在預算的整個編列上我們看到用很多特別預算連連的在補助他到底什麼時候能夠停止我想在審計部的一個立場"},{"start":6650.151,"end":6672.301,"text":"您要做出中肯的一個建議做出一個建言我們這個對台電這個部分我們會加強是另外我想剛才好多位委員都一直提到這個預算法83條的規定當然這一次我們也很多委員來提案三俗第四款不定期或數年一次重大事故這樣的一個條款"},{"start":6673.061,"end":6700.428,"text":"那希望我們特別預算的未來的一個這個編列呢要盡量避免有所謂的重大正式這樣的一個情形來作為預算特別預算編列的一個項目那所以我想請教沈記長您贊不贊成說這個預算法83條的第4款所規定的不定期或數年一次的重大正式這個條款來把它刪除"},{"start":6701.294,"end":6707.64,"text":"我剛剛非常同意委員盡量避免所以要備用這一款盡量順中"},{"start":6708.837,"end":6734.525,"text":"盡量慎重要做好很多的計畫評估要樂俗完了以後要樂俗好好的出現盡量避免我們都知道但是常常就是沒有辦法避免我們看到這幾年來政府常常利用這一款來編列所謂的這個預算特別預算所以我才會問你委員才會這個想說這一條好像是常常作為政府舉債的一個非常重要的一個依據"},{"start":6735.465,"end":6757.664,"text":"那認為說這個依據因為你講重大正式這個重大正式這四個字啊是一個很不確定的法律概念到底什麼情形之下符合叫做重大正式我想這個部分就會有很大的一個讓我們的執政的政府他有一個空間去這個用這一款來編列特別預算"},{"start":6758.297,"end":6782.876,"text":"所以您贊不贊成這一款應該予以刪除讓政府的財政紀律能夠走向正常化常態化因為要用這一款大部分都會訂特別條例訂了特別條例都會送到大院來審議所以大院這一個是不是重大大院可以來評估來看所以這一條是"},{"start":6785.518,"end":6810.101,"text":"主要在組織方面可能要注意在編列組織方面要注意現在我是問你的意見因為我們本院已經有好多委員建議要刪除那您的看法其實我想我一直強調這是一個很不確定的法律概念您剛才有提到要用這一款來編列特別預算要很省慎要符合這個預算的科目的項目所謂的重大建設"},{"start":6811.243,"end":6826.905,"text":"但是在法律上這是一個很不確定的法律概念所以我才會就教你您贊不贊成把它刪除呢我們從90年到現在編了40個特別預算裡面用到這一款的"},{"start":6827.532,"end":6850.222,"text":"有差不多將近一半將近一半用到這一款所以啊用這一款的機會很多但是我還是比較偏向順序因為這都是對國家的一個多了一個編例算的一個方式所以啊但是你認為常用這一款來做這個編列特別預算是破壞我們的財政紀律"},{"start":6856.627,"end":6877.405,"text":"你主要產生主要我們的計畫產生的效益大於我們的預算規模所以我們講說您剛才也提到是從這個過去有40幾次有編列特別預算但是你有沒有去審計過說這40幾件每一件都是這個符合這個條款的一個"},{"start":6878.306,"end":6904.815,"text":"預算的一個編列?你有沒有做出審計?因為這個部分因為我們的審計是站在後端是依照立法院通過的預算還有他的做的決議來做審計你來做最後的一個建議嘛對提出建議嘛對我們會對他執行的效能提出建議你會提出建議嗎那你認為這四十幾件都符合他的一個效益嗎執行的效益嗎效能我們都會追"},{"start":6905.635,"end":6934.914,"text":"我們到現在還在前瞻的構想效能我們都在追好我想這個議題你也不敢去很正面的答覆我但是我想未來我們在立法院好多位立委都已經提出刪除的一個建議那我想為了讓我們的財政據率能夠這個更好更常態化不要動輒用這一條款來編列特別預算破壞我們的財政據率那我還是認為沈議長您還是要把"},{"start":6935.375,"end":6945.435,"text":"過去的這個一用這個項目來編列特別預算的我希望您能做一個這個中肯的一個建議好不好OK好第二個問題再請教"},{"start":6947.915,"end":6969.212,"text":"關於111年的總決算審核部分﹐審計部就數位身分證的緩乏指出﹐因為契約暫停執行﹐而需支付逾1.3億元給中央印製廠﹐但根據內政部長林佑昌﹐他在上個月表示﹐經過調解後﹐還需另外支付給廠商的調解金額﹐壓在2億8千萬上下﹐"},{"start":6972.955,"end":6997.918,"text":"林部長甚至還說兩億多元已經是最好的結果數位身份證從執行面也好或者是從立法面也好從頭到尾就是政府沒有做完善的評估與準備導致我們民眾還沒有新式的證件可以拿到之前就必須掏腰包來幫助政府善後可以說是全世界最貴"},{"start":6999.164,"end":7008.312,"text":"而且還是拿不到的身份證所以本席請問沈記長數維身份證的政策失敗並且要支付這麼高額的賠償金這筆賬是要誰來買單"},{"start":7013.54,"end":7037.85,"text":"這個部分我們有提出審核意見因為他為損失就和委員所提的因為你在開始的時候沒有審慎評估計畫的可行性所以後來採購發生了一些問題因為你停了這會有違約我們也增加了一些經費因為時間的關係那您告訴我您的審核意見最後是什麼"},{"start":7041.571,"end":7056.8,"text":"我們送去監察院就移送監察院來何處嗎對是不是好那另外我們覺得更離譜的是我們已經採購的機器林佑昌部長說可能因為沒有辦法密集使用"},{"start":7057.6,"end":7079.453,"text":"但仍持續編列6357萬元的預算：以支付印製廠設備暫停執行的必要費用。請問省紀部是否有去督核這樣的費用花費是否合當：以及這些機器後續到底要如何處理：就繼續編列這些機器的維護費用：但是卻擺著不用。"},{"start":7080.353,"end":7087.214,"text":"省紀部你是否有去查核﹐追究相關責任﹐並再提出新的審核報告?"},{"start":7088.543,"end":7112.155,"text":"這個部分我們也有提出來也有意見他你這個要一直維護到底最後的使用會用到嗎?因為他的維護一年也花掉不少錢所以這個又添357萬民脂民膏一年要花這麼多錢我們就叫他好好的評估一下因為要"},{"start":7112.995,"end":7139.615,"text":"做一個決策要想到說這個如果以後不用了或者是以後用不到了或者效能變了這些都要考量所以你要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢我們就提出相關的審核意見給內政部那有沒有追究相關的責任這個部分因為已經提供到監察院因為這個監察院不會做所以這個部分也是有提請監察院做何處"},{"start":7142.878,"end":7166.55,"text":"監察院正在了解之中正在了解調查所以我再請問這個審議長就是我們交通部路政及道政司及道安司在上個月有公布112年我們這個交通死亡人數為3023人那上個月這次的審核報告提到的僅比我們這個"},{"start":7168.868,"end":7192.841,"text":"一百一十年的三千零八十五人減少大概六十二個人但是我們看到交通事故總計有四十萬兩千九百二十六件則是較前年增加了兩萬七千零八十二件那麼整體的事故還有傷亡人數受傷人數皆不減反增所以我想這個"},{"start":7196.92,"end":7197.001,"text":"請問這個我們沈記長"},{"start":7199.85,"end":7228.458,"text":"政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上希望能夠提高交通安全但我們又看不到交通部這種有對於我們所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標並沒有做到測他所希望達到的年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準我們在這次的審計報告中也提到全國市區道路仍有超過"},{"start":7229.538,"end":7255.356,"text":"三分之一的人行道近寬是不足最低最低的標準那我們這次在審計報告第12頁也提到全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化像我們新竹竹北高鐵特區這些新興區域就是還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列為考核的範圍之內"},{"start":7257.134,"end":7285.518,"text":"這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查我們會列到112年度的審核報告現在目前正在做我想這個對於我們電纜地下化這一個部分還有我們人行道的寬度不足這部分我們還是希望省紀部要持續的考核我們各個地方政府也要責成交通部"},{"start":7286.118,"end":7298.832,"text":"我們為了改善我們的交通這幾個部分一定要進謝謝林委員施明的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第6號郭委員國文詢問"},{"start":7326.367,"end":7330.128,"text":"主席有請陳惠敏我們審計長再請陳審計長備選各位好審計長好審計長根據你這一個年度的這個決算報告當中的一些審計內容以及審計意見那個人對審計意見當中還有一些意見"},{"start":7349.946,"end":7372.772,"text":"也就是說你在分析上的問題確實是有些點到但是意見上仍有不足之處有些問題想要就教於您那特別是本席一直持續長期來一直關心的這個社會住宅問題當中您有特別提到那以社會住宅來說的話我們蔡總統的任內的一個努力到目前為止已經有127,924戶"},{"start":7376.806,"end":7403.64,"text":"但是如果即便12萬戶這邊全部完工的話他預計是在整個住宅市場當中佔有1.5%那後續的部分我們的總統當選賴清德先生他也基本上提出一個叫高達25萬戶那如果累計25萬戶完成的話大概可以預計超過3%但是還有其他的部分還有包租代管的部分25萬戶的情況底下累計目標應該可以達到6%"},{"start":7405.343,"end":7429.449,"text":"這個情況已經超過5%為什麼要強調這個部分呢這是一個政策的目標而這個政策目標明顯是呼籲當年一些民間團體的訴求希望在住宅正義的部分有社會住宅相關的供給數能夠超過5%但是這5%的這個目標即便定了之後後面是執行的狀況但是執行的部分"},{"start":7430.322,"end":7436.878,"text":"如何?當省紀部呢就扮演一個非常重要的一個角色那我舉一個為什麼社會住宅現在"},{"start":7437.898,"end":7462.038,"text":"之所以會如此的一個重要性大家之所以會如此關注的一個很重要的一個原因是一來感覺上呢速度沒有我們想像中的期待的那麼快也就是目前為止實際的完工數不到3萬但是加上規劃中當然雖有12萬多但是為什麼有這種急迫感呢是因為外在環境的一些變化外在環境的變化也就是說我們現在的房租的物價指數節節攀升創下歷史新高"},{"start":7465.521,"end":7494.337,"text":"而且我們房價的所得比也是節節攀升也是創價力求升高一個是105.37一個是到了9.61倍再加上房貸的負擔率也是攀升超過4成但是相對而言我們社會住宅的這個中遷率大約是在15%在20%之間那中遷率的這個偏低也就代表什麼就供不應求供不應求"},{"start":7495.182,"end":7516.666,"text":"那這種供不應求的情況底下你們所做的報告內容當中有進行社會住宅現金收支的推估明顯看得出來內政部跟審計部有相當程度的落差從100年到172年推估的時間算非常之長落差的幅度你們認為是-2966億"},{"start":7521.311,"end":7547.483,"text":"而內政部門認為會有剩餘309億兩個部會之間相差之多超過3000億以上但是可是呢省基部在租租東興的規劃計畫當中呢你們認為高估了這個租金的收入可是問題是社會住宅他考慮到的除了營建成本跟這一個新建成本之外他本身有一定的程度的政策目標的存在對不對"},{"start":7548.323,"end":7569,"text":"那政策目標不在如果一直只是考慮到所謂自償率的部分的話你又點出一個部分說要內政部研擬所謂的合理的可負擔的租金的分級收費原則看起來齁又是點到為止那就是說積極面的部分呢從社會主題面向其實資金是一個很大的一個方向"},{"start":7570.001,"end":7587.6,"text":"在昨天的財政委員會當中呢那個內政部在我們的質詢當中他提出了所謂要創再提供創造一個一兆元以上的綠色債券的這個可能性來解決他的這個資金上的需求我不要審計長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":7589.205,"end":7616.814,"text":"如果社會住宅是社會上民眾所需要的話我們要想盡辦法來執行那我們的租金收租的這個顧我們也只是提醒要他稍微注意一下那至於怎麼收或者用什麼方法因為要幫民眾能夠有社會住宅口住總體來說是資金的部分財務面向的問題"},{"start":7617.714,"end":7644.222,"text":"那財務面向的部分你們也點出所謂的營運資金不足嘛那營運資金不足你就點到這邊而已就沒有其他的建議也就是說其實就一個社會住宅這個興建的部分資金當然是一個面向資金的面向它可以透過舉債增加預算或者其他的方式在你的審計部的這個審計意見當中都複製確如啊沒有看見嘛就是說第一個是不是舉債的方式"},{"start":7645.031,"end":7671.043,"text":"第二個你也是省計相關的部會你也知道不同的部會當中有不同的問題的存在依照目前為止台灣其實是不缺資金民間的資金非常之多甚至有些資金會過剩跑到海外去投資特別是受險基金的部分是否有效性的可以引導受險基金走入這個社會住宅的市場當中這個都是可能性啊"},{"start":7672.143,"end":7697.092,"text":"我就不曉得為什麼審計長你這個部分都沒有去注意到也沒有提到這個審計意見更何況是不是有創造一個新的可能性也就是諸多東西的這67億預算當中已經是最高的情況底下與其你把它當作預算是不是把它當作利息的預算來做支應也就是把它換成3%你就可以舉債到2000多億就可以迎刃化解它的資金面的財務問題啊"},{"start":7698.871,"end":7719.672,"text":"市長你的看法怎麼樣這個部分委員的意見我們尊重但是我們沒有做這一部分我們會回去做方面的評估對本席就是希望你在審計意見當中更加充實除了這個資金的面向之外還有一個面向還有一個面向是時間成本"},{"start":7720.649,"end":7737.087,"text":"什麼時間成本呢就實務當中你們要去深刻的去理解為什麼社會住宅會推出這麼慢的原因有一個關鍵的因素就是土地取得土地取得為什麼會造成這麼大的困難他一來就是呢剩餘土地呢"},{"start":7738.111,"end":7759.395,"text":"適合的土地空間不多二來還有使用分區的問題一旦使用分區出現問題的時候你還要走用地變更又要一段時間所以他時間當然會拖長啊所以站在審計單位你應該要求其他單位休假擁有土地持有單位較多的地方的單位在哪裡依賴嘛國有財產署嘛"},{"start":7760.27,"end":7775.502,"text":"二來嘛,就是台台嘛三來嘛,就是軍方嘛大概是這三個單位當中有沒有可能釋出土地空間來配合國家的總體的一個社會住宅的政策這就是你的職責所待啊,沈議長因為我們發現啊他有國有地裡面還有107處啊,閒住在那裡"},{"start":7780.286,"end":7801.394,"text":"你都知道有107處的閒置空間在那邊也就是如同國土財產署他現在管理的這些官設、廳設、閒置不用的有沒有可能作為活化或者來作為社會住宅的一個土地空間有沒有可能這個沒有去思考嗎"},{"start":7803.783,"end":7826.719,"text":"委員這個意見很好,我們會來提供給...可以納入你的審計意見當中吧好另外一個部分呢,也就是說呢,你的土地取得,你興建社會住宅的部分你也可以思考多元化的可能啊什麼是多元化的可能?現在國有財產署500坪以上不能賣嘛,對不對?對不對?對那它可以用的方式是什麼?"},{"start":7827.762,"end":7852.664,"text":"就設定地上權嘛對不對那有沒有可能創造地上權屋的一種方式也是提供社會住宅一種可能性啊方法之一啊對不對或者還有包括是什麼就是說設定這種地上權的方式之外以前地方政府也曾經有成功的BOT的案例而且速度非常之快不到三年就已經興建完繩"},{"start":7854.602,"end":7881.781,"text":"那為什麼在你的審計審計報告當中都沒有看到這種政策建議政策建議就是你審計部的責任嘛對不對委員都訴考很多人我們會照委員的來評估以後提出我們的什麼意見對這些具體的內容我一五一十告訴你就資金的面向財務的面向以及呢這個土地的因素還有時間的成本的考慮當中來具體"},{"start":7883.737,"end":7911.477,"text":"你出來提出一個可以操作的一個建議方式來要求相關部會來完成這一個政策目標我剛剛為什麼一開始就給你提政策目標就是5%以上是呼應民間的一個期待如果就常態性的租屋者的需求在台灣是有超過80萬以上常態性的需求當中為什麼需要因為我們社會住宅不但是重簽率低"},{"start":7912.421,"end":7921.412,"text":"而且呢你入住的時間還非常有限你如果不是弱勢者的話你挺多住3年再加3年也就挺多6年而已"},{"start":7922.694,"end":7950.784,"text":"就國外的例子當中呢是可以達到租者有其屋的一個政策目標欸對不對如果你社會住宅要推到一個真正一個符合政策目標的話還不在於說供給量的5%或6%而已而是長期的可以供給這些相對弱勢而無法達到居住正義的這一群租屋者的需求才是真正的政策目標我覺得沈議長你應該在內心當中要有一種政策目標啦委員的"},{"start":7953.926,"end":7973.403,"text":"對社會住宅的研究非常深入我們會照委員的意見來評估麻煩盡可能採用這些建議多給這些相關部會一點壓力進行日後持續性的一個成績好不好後面的部分你特別還有提到一個問題也就是關於這個企業這個"},{"start":7977.065,"end":7988.832,"text":"盈餘的部分占的GDP比例您在110年度決算的審計報告中正對行政院重要的審核意見當中對受僱者的占有GDP的比例當中創10年的新低嗎?對不對?"},{"start":7990.393,"end":7999.341,"text":"此內心地當中我們所佔的比例是36.53% 43.03%但是企業盈餘的佔比卻逐漸攀升也就是說你看到的這些相關的數字當中受僱者的報酬佔GDP的比例是從45.77一直滑落到43.03"},{"start":8014.847,"end":8021.513,"text":"然後另外一個部分呢企業的盈餘的占GDP比是31.82一直逐漸攀升到36.53這個告訴我們什麼"},{"start":8024.912,"end":8051.013,"text":"就是貧富差距的根本原因最近兩則新聞你看台灣億萬富豪的部分佔11萬人持有財產32萬兆累積的億萬財富有69%都是55歲的當然這55歲不包括本人但是另外一個部分是30歲以下的勞工朋友23%沒有存款是零存儲"},{"start":8052.56,"end":8079.065,"text":"有46%的青年人認為負債已經造成他沉重的經濟壓力?當你解釋這一個圖表的時候那我就把你的圖表做一個衍生我做一個國家主要國家的比較你看喔收估者人數的這個報酬率的這個GDP比我們剛剛看到是43點起數字上尾數有些差異沒有什麼關係但是日本是占多少?"},{"start":8080.151,"end":8100.881,"text":"日本的占過一半52.6%美國也是52.2%南韓52.2%也就三個國家都是超過一半都是52%以上唯獨台灣是在43%好你去看盈餘喔盈餘GDP我們剛好相反反正我是最高我們最高的部分台灣是34.4%美國是24.6%南韓是22%日本是13.1%"},{"start":8106.96,"end":8128.954,"text":"對不對那你看到這種結構性的因素當中以前我們也花了很多時間在做一些努力你做這些統計報告當中你就可以看得出來企業越來越賺錢但是整個經濟的成果並沒有達到所謂經濟學的下盛的效果沒有下盛的效果當中貧富差距就越來越大"},{"start":8130.134,"end":8146.268,"text":"主席長,你難道只有做這些統計報告而已,你沒有任何一個具體的一個政策建議,要求其他相關部會來做一些改善嗎?謝謝委員,這個部分齁,所得不驚,貧富不驚,這個我們在開始做專案調查,也在努力除夕要多年的調查"},{"start":8147.387,"end":8170.607,"text":"專案調查之後有沒有什麼專案的建議或政策或要求今年會提出來今年什麼時候今年我再結算報告為什麼我問你的時候你才會提出來這個現象已經持續很久了本來就有內陸的這個專案調查了你今年你說你再重複一次今年幾月的時候會提出來因為我我固定七月底以前要送审的報告七月底是全部啦地方的都會出來嘛對不對你的七月底會有具體的喔"},{"start":8171.287,"end":8200.359,"text":"可操作的喔有效的喔可以改善的喔我會好好看喔謝謝委員那我再跟你講最後一分鐘的時間齁其實我們不是完全沒有努力蔡政府過去八年來都有進行基本工資的調整但是基本工資的調整它的整個主體推高的這一個層面相對是比較屬於低薪階級的部分的這一個薪資結構有所部分的改善"},{"start":8201.411,"end":8229.973,"text":"但是最關鍵的部分是在中階的部分也就是說所得勞動所得在中階的部分幾乎影響就相對比較少過往我們也提過所謂的中小企業加薪這個抵稅但實質上當初的法令居然用一個很高的失業率做一個標準根本沒有辦法達成圖有條文而且我們也將近把整個企業營運進行課稅也做過這樣的努力但是實際上"},{"start":8231.514,"end":8246.642,"text":"也是好到股東沒有好到勞工啊?對啊也就是我們制度上做了這些努力沒有達到實質的效果所以請沈記長好好思考一下這個報告好好寫啦好 謝謝謝謝郭委員國文的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告委員會現在我們休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8872.844,"end":8874.247,"text":"包委員會現在繼續開會接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員與珍詢問"},{"start":8898.078,"end":8902.761,"text":"主席您好請沈記長麻煩再請沈記長備詢委員好沈記長您好首先謝謝沈記長帶領審計部這些年來對於中央政府的一些不當的政策提出審核跟這個稽查那我想"},{"start":8922.495,"end":8951.338,"text":"也讓大家了解到現在百姓所受到的痛苦其實也跟中央執政這些年來一些錯誤的這個政策有關那我想我想在這邊也期望我們省紀長能夠繼續帶領我們的省紀部可以展現我們這個中華文化這個玉石待復的這個風骨寬鎮剛擠然後繼續的帶領我們的這個省紀部展現氣節不知道省紀長願不願意我們來努力是謝謝"},{"start":8952.299,"end":8979.335,"text":"好首先我們來看一下這個民生的議題就是雞蛋的價格貴部在111年度的中央政府的總決算附屬單位的決算及中計表的審核報告非營業部分的報告指出到111年的12月已經達到了121,200箱然而因為總蛋總機的進口時程延遲無法及時更新產蛋機群及淘汰後未能及時的補充"},{"start":8980.015,"end":9007.622,"text":"及氣候疫情等因素的影響導致產量的急速下滑接著又寫道為穩定產銷及因應部分通路的雞蛋短缺辦理緊急調度加工原料但專案進口國外雞蛋及雞蛋生產獎勵等措施其增加雞蛋的供應量以穩定產銷的秩序跟價格然而雞蛋短缺的問題到112年3月以延續一年多仍未有效的解決"},{"start":9008.462,"end":9035.838,"text":"且散裝雞蛋的零售價格節節攀升：置身民怨那我們也從右邊的這個這個養雞協會的雞蛋產地的交易行情可以看得出來雞蛋價格從110年的10月開始攀升到現在都還沒有回穩3月底又要漲3塊請問沈記長貴部的報告指出含傾農委會也就是現在的農業部應該要持續精進蛋雞產業的這個生產的"},{"start":9038.013,"end":9057.564,"text":"數據、調查技術跟即時掌握：包括總機、中機、蛋機：跟雞蛋的產量的流量的資訊：讓政府跟蛋農：可以及早掌握：雞蛋的供應量：跟價格波動的趨勢：適時的調整策略與穩定：產銷秩序及價格：請問農業部接到貴部的含文後：有改進嗎"},{"start":9059.093,"end":9067.617,"text":"他有來函說他會來改進這方面的產銷的問題但是我們最近在追蹤整個追蹤的情形我們還會在112年度的損和報告裡面"},{"start":9078.428,"end":9107.232,"text":"請省紀長在這個部分一定要幫我們的民眾把關那這次的省紀部的審核報告在112年7月底公佈主要是談111年的審核你們這份111年的審核報告鐵口直斷雞蛋的產銷秩序會有問題結果在112年8月就爆發了有50萬的基本額的超私、一人公司就可以拿到政府1.75億補助的這個大量進口"},{"start":9107.732,"end":9134.406,"text":"國外雞蛋然後搞得全台的雞蛋價格大亂雞蛋的產地標示不清雞蛋的有效期限也出現問題百姓也不曉得該不該吃蛋甚至也吃不起蛋喔而我們辛苦飼養雞蛋的這個蛋農也受到大家的誤會欲哭無淚所以審計部在111年的時候審計報告就提出雞蛋的問題但是在農業部在112年還是我行我素"},{"start":9135.086,"end":9154.859,"text":"沒有改進所以導致我們去年想吃雞蛋的時候吃不到蛋等可以吃得到雞蛋的時候又擔心都是過期的雞蛋用納稅人的錢進口了那麼多的外國雞蛋然後現在又要銷毀五千七百七十三萬顆的雞蛋暴舔天物請問審計長你對於這種無視審計報告對不起百姓的部會審計部會如何處理"},{"start":9162.848,"end":9171.795,"text":"我們還是會追蹤因為他當時我們說你那個統計數據你使用的統計數據有的都夠實了你要來做產銷調節可能那個我們有這樣的一個提出還有剛剛委員講的這個部分因為農委會會痛定思痛會好好的把"},{"start":9186.954,"end":9188.636,"text":"這個案子我們已經送了"},{"start":9203.934,"end":9219.782,"text":"好謝謝謝謝你講那接下來我再請教一下沈記長有關109年度的中央政府的總決算審核報告各公務機關的重要審核意見當中對於農委會辦理政策宣導為依預算法第62條之一編列專項經費"},{"start":9222.643,"end":9247.7,"text":"增列應付保留數兩千六百四十萬餘元去年有委員詢問時沈記長是說尚未繳回請問現在目前這筆經費的處理狀況這個部分我們把它從實現室把它撿到保留室目前還是還在掛在保留室因為當時他沒有符合因為大院有一個決議你要有專項經費他是沒有專項經費"},{"start":9250.001,"end":9254.147,"text":"對於農業部這樣一直不理審計部的意見而且對於這種的話審計部有什麼方式可以來處理因為是從109年到現在"},{"start":9265.282,"end":9294.058,"text":"所以一個案子是這樣我們要希望他就照大院的有專項經費出來的時候我們就會慢慢慢慢還有整個政令先導的通通進到整個正常的大院規定的體系行政院的規定的相關的體系裡面我們才會來做一個整個後面的一個處理好所以現在農業部還沒繳回嘛所以審計部對於這樣不理不睬的態度啊"},{"start":9294.917,"end":9311.77,"text":"審計部會怎麼做我們還是會逐步要他還是逐步要去面對這個問題所以他現在農業部已經現在正應先導的部分他現在我們查核的結果都已經按規定都有按規定在做"},{"start":9312.182,"end":9325.174,"text":"但是這比兩千六百四十萬目前還沒嘛所以請省級長要繼續追查不可以讓這樣子的一個不符合國家規定的不符合你們省級規定的相關的形式一再的發生請省級長好 謝謝"},{"start":9327.296,"end":9345.296,"text":"那接下來也要請教的就是有關這個我們在111年度的時候就是政府有鑒於資訊科技日益普遍要推動智慧政府的這個行動方案那所以這個國發會在107年12月27號在行政院提報了智慧政府的發展藍圖"},{"start":9346.697,"end":9367.985,"text":"並且經行政院院會決議數位身份證是實現智慧政府的基礎架構請內政部妥善規劃全面換發相關的工作也在109年啟動全面換發的作業那內政部也在108年1月31號提報數位身份證新一代國民身份證的換發計劃經行政院在108年6月6號原則同意辦理計劃其成為108年到112年"},{"start":9376.369,"end":9384.714,"text":"總經費總共是48億9285萬元。審計部的報告指出新一代的國民身份證換發計劃行政院已於110年1月21日院會決定計劃暫緩實行。"},{"start":9391.901,"end":9414.701,"text":"內政部迄今未依中長城個案計劃編審要點第11點的規定修正或終止計劃請問沈經長內政部是不是已經依照你們編審要點的第11條的規定修正或終止計劃了目前內政部因為要在等整個那個購租法裡面的購租委員會成立"},{"start":9415.202,"end":9443.493,"text":"他們會整個在通盤評估這個計畫是繼續走還是有所變更所以這個大概因為這受到資安問題所以還蠻複雜這個從107年就決定要做的事情為什麼到現在還針對個資的部分資安現在才在辦理這樣子的一個事情我們的審計意見裡面有提出因為這個你要做這個因為限度很大的個資問題"},{"start":9444.898,"end":9469.029,"text":"所以他們在當時的決定應該是沒有損失來評估這個計劃的可行性所以造成了這樣的後面的這樣衍生了這些問題所以我們這個部分我們有送檢查案對所以沈記長也提到就是當時因為資安的問題才是煥發這個我們數位身份證最重要的問題可是從107年到現在都沒有提到所以迫使這個計劃暫時的這個終止"},{"start":9471.77,"end":9487.474,"text":"或者是修正嗎但是呢目前為止他也還沒有要修正或中正的這個計畫修正或中止的一個計畫所以剛剛農業部也是對於審計部的這個回應好像有點置之不理"},{"start":9487.984,"end":9515.595,"text":"那現在內政部也是這樣也不是很積極那請問沈記長對於這樣的狀況我們可以有何作為農業部的部分因為他已經我們看到他的整個政令先導都按照行政院的規定來做了所以這個部分農業部已經那這個因為輸入輸入身證簽售的租安面還有個私錢個人的私錢那個面向很大那個受惠"},{"start":9516.155,"end":9541.248,"text":"看法各有不同所以我們目前還是尊重內政部但是他的維持那個機器運轉一年要花掉五、六千億這個我們叫他要好好的做一個評估針對這個部分我等一下也會請教這個沈記長這個問題但是我現在要先來請教沈記長針對數位身份證的這個總共目前為止雖然開始現在說是要暫緩"},{"start":9542.388,"end":9556.835,"text":"但是總共花了多少的經費有各方的說法不一啦那請問沈記長有沒有實際的數字這個部分我們有了解過因為他整個計劃整個組成的結果他當時編了抱歉"},{"start":9561.813,"end":9573.055,"text":"他當時編了整個我來跟這個沈記長報告一下這一次你可以看一下我的Power Point就是我們針對112年的決算報告來看內政部的這個新式換發身份證的執行計畫到109到112年已經累積編列預算數為8億6504萬8千元截至112年底累積執行數是7億1223萬7千元"},{"start":9588.758,"end":9615.879,"text":"另外可以查到的是一百零九年中央印製廠編列了四億一千八百零四萬五千元兩者合計總共是十一萬三千零二十八元那今年的一月初公共工程委員會跟我們的這個得標廠商呢達成仲裁的協議同意以二點八億元來和解若再加上這筆二點八億的話總共會是十四億一千零二十八萬兩千元請問這個數字您覺得正確嗎"},{"start":9618.541,"end":9628.222,"text":"這個部分大概和我們的數字相當唯一的中央醫術廠那邊他是機器他會貪到相對之分要錢"},{"start":9628.939,"end":9656.658,"text":"我跟這個沈機長來講就是他現在我也有問過中央印製廠他們說內政部已經編列了兩年攤提的費用給他們一年大概是四千萬兩年編列了八千萬扣掉這八千萬也還是支出了十三億三千萬元所以剛剛還有提到剛剛沈機長有提到的這個都已經要暫停執行的這個計畫了我們每年卻要編六千三百七十五萬九千元"},{"start":9657.734,"end":9682.181,"text":"所以針對這個部分他是說有4000萬是攤提計劃2300多萬是我們的營運費必要的費用可是我們現在已經跟這個數位身份證的得標廠商解約了未來就算再重新招標也不見得是同一個廠商得標那以這樣的狀況硬製機器也可能必須要重買所以我們現在每年花費數千萬元去維護保養維運這個器器沈議長認為合理嗎"},{"start":9687.915,"end":9701.651,"text":"委員都看我和我們一樣我們現在請那個內政部啊做這一點啊要做一個正確的那個節奏評估好請省議長一定要嚴格的監督內政部針對這個部分不可以再浪費我們這個納稅人的這個"},{"start":9704.28,"end":9730.837,"text":"這個辛苦的血汗錢因為事實上現在的經濟非常的不好那結果我們居然為了這個事情還沒做就已經花了13億3千萬元了未來每年還要編6千3百7十五萬元真的是非常的浪費公帑那接下來呢針對這個部分本席還要請教一下省議長有關電費的問題就是按照省紀部111年度的中央政府的這個"},{"start":9732.793,"end":9750.589,"text":"總決算跟附屬單位的決算跟中繼表的報告第107頁顯示111年度的國際的燃料價格受惡物戰爭的影響導致我們的價格飆升那台灣這個台電的燃料成本大幅的增加那每度電的虧損達到1.17元"},{"start":9753.712,"end":9768.788,"text":"也讓我們一百一十一年度的營運發生成本本期競損兩千兩百六十五億兩千七百五十九萬元沈警長是否認為台電虧損這麼多主要的原因是因為國際燃料價格飆升請問沈警長"},{"start":9770.672,"end":9796.301,"text":"這個台電在因為他的主要在火力發電火力包燃煤燃氣他的現在的占比還是八成以上所以主要國際的燃油價格往上走這對台電來講是負擔相當大所以您認為也是國際燃料價格的這個他的因素很多元包括了其中一項主要的因素嗎但是他會占大宗"},{"start":9797.056,"end":9809.166,"text":"好,可是我們現在看喔雖然國際的這個以112年來說國際的燃料價格已經下降很多喔從每度電的成本由110年度的2.6042元上升到112年度的"},{"start":9839.689,"end":9842.79,"text":"謝謝謝謝許委員宇甄的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第8號范雲委員詢問"},{"start":9855.983,"end":9859.584,"text":"主席好有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長備詢沈記長好我想沈記部在決算的審核上相當用心有看你們的報告就市政合規還有效能的部分那我想你們扮演很重要的那個角色那今天就是我有兩點"},{"start":9885.41,"end":9905.166,"text":"建議希望審計部能夠納入考量讓我們的決算審核方向未來更完整找出我們的政策還有實行執行的過程中可能的漏洞希望審計長能夠接納首先我想先問一下審計長有沒有聽過性別主流化"},{"start":9906.167,"end":9921.56,"text":"可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化嗎可以簡單講一下什麼是性別主流化性別主流化就是大家性別平等吧是性別平等而已嗎那為什麼要一個新名詞性別主流化"},{"start":9922.761,"end":9948.67,"text":"這個就沒有我也那麼專業了好那這個就拜託沈記長要能夠了解因為他是聯合國的重要方向也是我們政府的政策方向他是1997年聯合國經濟及社會理事會定義就是要求政府來做什麼評估所有的計畫的行動包含立法政策方案對男女雙方不同的含義影響"},{"start":9949.71,"end":9978.596,"text":"那就是要讓男女雙方受益均等就是政府有職責要落實性別平等所以主流化就是這個性別的議題在所有的政策中都應該是主流那因為政府扮演重要的角色那預算呢就是政府裡面重要的執行那給您看我們行政院性別平等處也有手冊教大家怎麼做因為內容蠻多的我就"},{"start":9980.318,"end":9990.49,"text":"要能發展政策矯正不平等導致不平等的機制是所有政府部門都應該運用的策略施政團隊早在陳水扁擔任總統時就開始推動了"},{"start":9995.737,"end":9995.877,"text":"同意"},{"start":10017.843,"end":10039.257,"text":"所以統計是基本的如果你都看不出這個政策對性別的差異那你剛看到年齡、成相、身心的話其實是沒辦法做一個有效的政策工具就是性別分析就是你的政策比如說前瞻對不同性別的影響你是做不出來了所以呢 審計部的決算"},{"start":10040.057,"end":10057.571,"text":"就應該要來審核這是我們行政院自己的方案有沒有落實那可不可以請問那個沈記長您覺得您目前你們生產的報告有沒有落實這個性別主流化呢如果從0分到100分您自己打幾分"},{"start":10059.005,"end":10076.482,"text":"我們是其實這樣剛剛聽了委員的這個性別主流話我更加深入以前我都請我在我審計部現在請李安妮那個那個周清怡他們幫忙這方面但是在審核的這個部分"},{"start":10077.643,"end":10105.046,"text":"我們是有去注意關注到但是沒有說向委員要這樣落實到一個題目出來那0到100分您給現在的報告內容差不多60分60分喔好啦我不知道您這是好還是不好以我來看是還沒到60分不過當然就是說也許就是我們的標準不一樣那我有三個建議第一個就是他有三大問題第一個"},{"start":10106.747,"end":10120.999,"text":"行政院跟所屬部會其實有編列性別預算可是呢你們的決算報告裡面行政院決算報告裡面都沒有把這個決審的審核機制裡面都沒有納進去所以就是當時有編列"},{"start":10121.9,"end":10147.504,"text":"性別預算可是沒有相關的決算報告那你們也沒有去說審核這個部分這是第一個問題到底他性別預算做的怎麼樣第二個中央政府的決算還有你們的決算審核裡面完全沒有性別統計那我剛講的性別主流化聯合國的六大工具裡面性別統計是最重要的"},{"start":10147.884,"end":10162.361,"text":"如果統計都沒有的話我們就看不出來我們的政策執行的影響力我舉個例子給您看我這邊是衛福部的兒少自殺自殺死亡人口我們都知道自殺的根據統計"},{"start":10163.682,"end":10178.251,"text":"男性的自殺率高於女性可見自殺率有性別差異可是審核意見通篇都沒有這裡面你們有針對兒少群的自殺跟心理健康的議題有看到衛福部的審核"},{"start":10178.891,"end":10200.458,"text":"他完全沒有提出來那我們這樣子看不到性別的差異明明就知道自殺率是有性別差異的男性也許是因為壓力大於各方面自殺率比較高那所以我們都看不到性別差異自然就沒辦法看到這個決算整個政策的執行做得好不好那這是一個例子為什麼性別統計很重要"},{"start":10201.218,"end":10223.111,"text":"那你們的第三個問題是你們的決算審核的報告以我來看您剛講的李安妮的確是專家希望可以多請教她的確缺乏性別主流化的觀點你們很多的決算審查意見都非常好可是我舉個例子為什麼你們的報告沒有性別主流化觀點"},{"start":10224.852,"end":10226.753,"text":"育齡國人育五成未婚﹐有待強化對未婚族群之關注政策﹐鼓勵適齡結婚"},{"start":10244.877,"end":10259.99,"text":"然後呢這是你們的方向我想少子化是全球普遍的議題那個主計長沈議長應該知道嘛那就是說人家解決的少子化的國家最好的是哪些您知不知道"},{"start":10262.654,"end":10281.134,"text":"不知道哪些國家解決了少子化的問題本來日本是很低啦後來他有一段時間他有拉升上來韓國也是在建築很低迷現在都在解決但是日本也有提出樹林的問題"},{"start":10282.395,"end":10306.961,"text":"如果我們只看日本跟韓國我們就是在一群低生育率的國家裡面相互學習目前能夠解決生育率的議題其實最好的是北歐國家因為他們找出正確的解方我剛剛還跟劉玉秀教授一起開記者會除了公托要普及之外我們的育嬰價要大改革"},{"start":10307.441,"end":10330.084,"text":"做到就是婚育的平衡那這是國際的共同解方那如果我們沒有看到解方因為你現在不可能叫女性退回職場他們受到教育之後進入職場那如果他進入職場之後蠟燭兩頭燒他當然就越生越少了所以重要是這幾個解方就是我沒有看到哪個國家有這樣的解方"},{"start":10330.925,"end":10348.486,"text":"不僅沒有一個性別平等的價值跟理解最重要的就是沒有性別主流化看到真正的問題聯合國2019年指出聯合國針對少子化有報告各位上網都可以查就是可以Download"},{"start":10349.346,"end":10369.811,"text":"東亞尤其是臺灣有指出臺灣低生育率的原因是性別分工嚴重失衡女性被期待負擔照顧責任但是職涯與育兒難以兼顧所以省計部的建議缺乏性別主流化的觀點如果我們行政院依照你們的建議去做的話這個據說是不會"},{"start":10371.852,"end":10372.373,"text":"具體建議三點第一個"},{"start":10388.471,"end":10409.606,"text":"要求各級政府單位決算中要納入性別統計重要關係人政策的重要關係人受益者要有性別統計第二個審核行政院自己列的性別預算的執行狀況第三個請你們的專業審核報告中納入性別主流化的觀點好不好"},{"start":10409.986,"end":10438.516,"text":"好委員這個建議很好我們來做好謝謝那我相信你們可以找到很多專家願意幫你們就是說看如何改善那再來呢我還有另外一個意見就是剛剛的委員也有提到你們審核意見到底如何追蹤管考我知道你們很努力可是我從一個我關心的例子看到好像有點問題就是我長期監督教育部也很關心大專院校轉型跟退場"},{"start":10439.056,"end":10441.098,"text":"111年的報告也指出,針對110年的考核意見,"},{"start":10461.258,"end":10475.517,"text":"人代繼續改善經再研提審核意見通知前逃改善沈記長你們對部會預算執行改善成效不佳也只能這樣寫嗎?這樣有用嗎?"},{"start":10479.583,"end":10498.934,"text":"氣而不捨來努力因為這個他維持到這個也是他教育部比較重大的一個問題這是我是有點擔心因為我們是對沈記長期待很高那針對那個成效不彰的你們至少應該要寫得更強而有力一點吧"},{"start":10499.474,"end":10528.704,"text":"我們都遵照委員的意見就是說尤其是這個教育的部分是國家對下一代人才的投資那退場的議題大家都非常的關心因為他影響到的是退場的教師的權益然後退場的學生的權益那教育部我們就已經有給他相關的工具在這裡的如果你們都看到做得不夠好的話那一定要更加嚴格好嗎因為你們是掌握各部會都很重視你們"},{"start":10529.824,"end":10556.401,"text":"那所以呢最後我具體的建議強化監督各級政府施政跟究責就是說提供具體的施政建議那為國家把關資源做有效的運用那我想就是因為如果就是審計部你們看到部會做得不好的時候應該要善用自己的職權那通知表現不好機關的上級機關對不對"},{"start":10559.163,"end":10575.634,"text":"如果教育部比如說高教師沒做好就要通知部長部長這邊如果都不聽的話你不就是應該要跟行政院長上級機關也向監察院報告好嗎好謝謝委員的支持我們都會照委員的意思這是我們的主責"},{"start":10576.634,"end":10605.446,"text":"那如何提升效能跟增進公共利益是審計部向行政院提出建議要求確實改善的重要職責好不好當我們行政院都在推動性別主流化的話我想我們審計部也要跟上那監察院也有不少專家但是委員講的那個審核報告要注意性別主流化我已經記進去了報告的專業意見那個您記得哪方面有問題嗎"},{"start":10606.354,"end":10633.046,"text":"你說說剛剛少子化就講我說素領結婚的我們但是我們是面相之一啦好少子化是一個例子齁這麼一個性別相關的你們的專業意見缺乏性別主流化另外一個是監督要有決算報告要有性別統計好那另外一個就是齁就是你們也針對行政院自己列出的性別預算性別預算我們會追蹤會考核好嗎好至少三大問題"},{"start":10633.706,"end":10635.547,"text":"謝謝范雲委員的詢問也謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第9號賴委員事保詢問"},{"start":10670.758,"end":10677.924,"text":"謝謝院長、主席以及各位先進有請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備選賴委員好審計長早現在探討一點比較大的項目"},{"start":10691.516,"end":10706.967,"text":"我們國家現在未償債未償的還沒還要不然債務有多少國家到到3月底子6兆2000億6兆2000億6兆2000億到上個月底到3月底到3月底6兆2000億"},{"start":10721.745,"end":10741.356,"text":"馬英九的時代馬英九當過總統那個任內他卸任的那時候債務多少五兆三千多億他的時代就五兆多五兆多他的五兆多五兆多五兆五兆多可是為什麼你的數字寫1.7兆呢"},{"start":10744.921,"end":10762.57,"text":"1.7兆對我的數字沒有你是債務一額嗎債務一額債務一額他不可能1.7兆他說5兆多5兆多那現在6兆2所以增加多少增加現在整個增加5兆6減掉5兆多差不多5000多億"},{"start":10764.69,"end":10791.873,"text":"增加五千多億對到三月啦如果以11年或者是四千多億去年的話以今年的結算報告是四千兩百億去年底的話是六兆六六兆六那是預算室預算室對預算室他後來沒有那個稅收好的時候就減少擠債增加還債所以啊我看到你的報告"},{"start":10793.151,"end":10809.586,"text":"那時候聯合報還誇你啊他說你啊你對於審計你審計這一塊你說前瞻分配不公實行不切實際聯合報把你打破打成這樣"},{"start":10811.909,"end":10833.043,"text":"他那個是過度解讀啦我剛剛講的我不會做這樣的解釋啦公務員啊大家都在努力齁我們盡量啊大家都在努力難免會有一些簽署但是等一下肯定你丟棄啊你怕政治啊那個不是丟棄那個是過度解讀這個沈縣長你是一把大刀"},{"start":10834.366,"end":10844.214,"text":"你從我從任命的時候你就一直這樣鼓勵我啊謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝不用考慮政治的東西該怎麼講是怎麼講我們來看啦我們來看這個前瞻因為今天我們三個項目一個是前瞻前瞻的執行率啊排行榜最差的"},{"start":10862.163,"end":10882.418,"text":"維護部最長31%第二差的數位部38%你看看要跳下跳下來省機長靠近靠近農業部46%這個都是跟我們社會大家印象中很接近的大家覺得維護部"},{"start":10884.761,"end":10910.207,"text":"前瞻就是要錢要很多蘇華部也是拼命要錢結果錢都用不掉執行力只有31%31%執行力38%、46%你怎麼看我們要通知他改善通知他改善國家給他錢他要好好做市長"},{"start":10912.302,"end":10939.529,"text":"這是我的主責啊我的感覺啦你這個審計長你把這個審計長越做越小你知道嗎?不會不會不會 剛才把你額漏啊你也不把他扛起來啊你丟棄喔照理講你要給他給他好好的一個警告或者什麼的結果你們的你們的審計報告就不痛不癢那個東西啊因為衛部部長叫做陳時中你不肯碰他嚇到這個"},{"start":10941.955,"end":10943.567,"text":"實際上你比他們更大力"},{"start":10944.898,"end":10971.45,"text":"真的 你那大刀有夠大我的數字給你 桌球給你 你的話都不敢講 哇你誰誰誰啊我剛剛講得很大聲欸 剛剛李毓螺我講得還不小聲啊我就問你啊 你怎麼就要這樣改進啊對啊 像這些我們都有通知衛福部怎麼改進 你這樣怎麼改進衛福部 它那個長照 本來長照都落後 現在都改進了"},{"start":10973.03,"end":10980.837,"text":"其實不是啦長照的那個部件的地方都改進了那個其實啊"},{"start":10982.443,"end":11011.152,"text":"其實有個事情啊衛福部的裡面的食藥署編了三十億億的預算蓋行政大樓所有的前瞻計畫裡面只有一百零一個敢去蓋行政大樓的就是衛福部的食藥署你也不敢糾正啊我沒有糾正錢啊但是我有損盡錢我有通知他啊你太慢了他怎麼敢去用前瞻的錢去蓋大樓沒有人敢蓋啊"},{"start":11012.092,"end":11029.844,"text":"我那時候跟柯建民跟他吵啊我 我說我不同意 不同意他們就表決 他們一定贏啊沒辦法 我只好鼻子摸一摸 砍五千萬這樣給我砍五千萬勒 我就不敢玩了勒這個錢到現在勒 好 到現在 蓋不出來啦蓋不出來啦 物價都漲"},{"start":11030.865,"end":11055.641,"text":"對不對而且我再強調一遍前瞻預算裡面只有衛福部的食藥署敢編30幾億去蓋他的行政大樓當時的了解啊他那個是食品衛生的畫面然後裡面就藏幾個實驗室比如說我們這邊大樓十幾樓藏兩個實驗室五個實驗室其他都是辦公大樓這樣子搞我把他抓出來"},{"start":11058.305,"end":11060.686,"text":"111年度今年也是決勝報告之一裡面外交部"},{"start":11084.795,"end":11100.474,"text":"一方面他錢花不掉二方面保留預算保留的錢最多保留比例30%90億結果他還有剩36億你知道這是什麼嗎我錢用不完我還要再做外部的保留"},{"start":11101.943,"end":11116.991,"text":"我的錢都用不完了我還要保留錢這個東西啊好像什麼我們小時候就看這個兄弟姊妹啊大家吃東西啊公家的先拿一點過來這裡我自己的放這裡吃兩份外交部就是這樣"},{"start":11118.004,"end":11143.465,"text":"外交部這樣子謝謝委員你看出來了我們當時也提醒他他可能大保留成他有一些承諾國際外交的承諾他要保留下來但是我說被立算的時候就處理就好了所以我的錢我們希望他趕快去買黃色那些黃色他的住有率很低所以外交部的部分我們都有要求"},{"start":11144.526,"end":11161.045,"text":"中央全部的經費的剩餘有371億結果還跑了700多億加起來就1000多億啦1000多億放在各部會的手上欸變這個樣子啊我們通知他要改啊要他研究啊改了沒有"},{"start":11162.12,"end":11172.288,"text":"他好像還不容易改不會啦不會啦我們會和他共同我們慢慢會和他共同解決這個問題"},{"start":11183.817,"end":11192.062,"text":"不鳥你啊 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會 不會"},{"start":11210.614,"end":11227.168,"text":"糾正也好我要跟總統來努力我的意思是說拜託你也給我派一下你都沒給我派我還要先派啊省計長都沒給我派大家都不怕你行政部門都不怕你下一頁前瞻你知不知道現在前瞻剩多少錢"},{"start":11237.211,"end":11264.979,"text":"前瞻如果你是編譯算的話他因為8400億到現在已經編了7000多億所以還有700多億還沒編704億對委員算得很清楚但是我們的第7條第一款講得很清楚他是4年為一個期程所以他照理講就是8年8年你也沒有用完這個錢是不是在腳步請問你可以繼續用嗎"},{"start":11265.984,"end":11294.37,"text":"他是這樣這個是尊重大院或者尊重行政院去處理這是預算編列還有的問題這個還剩700多億但是法裡面有數年為期程他可能超過期程所以這一個部分希望這個是大院決定沒損失尊重所以你們不敢說話好我們再看一個下一個下一個你的報告我覺得是根據你報告來問你的"},{"start":11297.602,"end":11324.019,"text":"審計的決算報告：國際食品警訊通報：假的因為食藥署：這是你說：這個話都是你寫的食藥署沒有掌握問題問題產品在國內流通的情形為什麼沒有意義標準作業SOP查證問題沒有意義設計系統的條件沒有辦法即時的收訊例如說"},{"start":11327.313,"end":11340.668,"text":"你找不到人喔冰淇淋蝦醋醬泡麵巧克力讓食品有消費紅綠燈變不好食品紅綠燈這是你說的你講一下這是你的報告這一個"},{"start":11344.997,"end":11363.053,"text":"我們食品安全影響國人很大所以建立基柱非常重要因為你要靠茶靠那個用基柱來所以我們涉及基柱的部分我們都會加強查核加強提出意見來幫忙解決這個問題那他做不到怎麼辦我們還會繼續努力我們會再善盡職責"},{"start":11373.397,"end":11374.197,"text":"有關於電價要上漲的問題"},{"start":11402.009,"end":11422.584,"text":"請問你知不知道現在台電資本額多少?資本額加了那個就是你寫的五千八百億還沒有算補貼五百億再補貼一千億補貼一千五百億再加五千八這麼多的錢然後居然還要跟老百姓漲價要跟我們要錢一坨牛撥好幾層皮這句話你同意嗎?這一個因為資本額是在強壯它"},{"start":11432.223,"end":11439.627,"text":"台電的體質補貼和虧損政府拿稅去補貼他的虧損已經補貼了還要漲價他一年大概估計現在這種情況因為他的售電單價低於他的售電成本"},{"start":11454.162,"end":11481.548,"text":"那個發電成本所以啊對啊你講得很好啊就是賣得比成本低啊為什麼這個樣子就是人員結構的問題啊我們來看我們來看我數字給你清楚清清楚楚一個數字用核電8年來核電賺多少錢台電賺了2400億一年賺300億你現在企業份核酸要去掉了"},{"start":11482.745,"end":11498.207,"text":"所以我就請教你要不要督促這個政府要改一下他的發電的結構、人員的結構、核電的比例、核三長要延逸這個從審計的角度這個角度對不對"},{"start":11501.756,"end":11525.857,"text":"核電成本是唯一的統計現在符合成本的就是核電和水利核電還比水利還便宜但是核電大家存有安全疑慮的問題所以這個安全的問題要解決"},{"start":11526.98,"end":11545.197,"text":"火力問題更危險現在肺癌是國病第一名都是因為空氣、空汙燒天然氣、燒煤容易得肺癌核電還沒有出什麼問題台電的核電管理能力全世界排名第4名"},{"start":11547.246,"end":11554.07,"text":"台電的合理管理這麼強,你擔心他有什麼問題?對不對?這個完全不是,對不對?我就跟你講說,噴到政治問題,你也酸欸你那個英文叫Sneaky,你也酸欸沈機長"},{"start":11562.609,"end":11587.267,"text":"沒有算啦!做了後繼續做!沒有!我跟妳講的!我跟妳講的!你這個就是意識形態!你到底就是意識形態!因為民進黨政府的意識形態!讓我們給台電這麼多錢呢!五千八百億加一千五百億!七八千億!然後還要漲電價!然後他還要把核電廠廢掉!這是什麼政府?"},{"start":11592.497,"end":11597.5,"text":"謝謝賴委員事保的詢問也謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第10號鍾委員嘉賓詢問謝謝主席感謝記住我姓鍾不姓徐謝謝院長那麼有請我們的陳審計長再請陳審計長備詢"},{"start":11625.646,"end":11645.871,"text":"委員好沈議長好我們看到這次我們有常態的年度決算以及特別決算那麼我要請教一下沈議長我們這個決算審計剛才依法我們有包括在財務上要審核財務收支績效上提出建議跟預警那你覺得在這三個決算當中合法性的審議還OK吧"},{"start":11648.147,"end":11677.109,"text":"OK還可以那有沒有財務上的很多為師呢沒有查到一些一些蟲物花蠟或者異稜不合諸葛齡所以我看到您的報告我是特別重視您對績效性審計您的意見好這三個決算它的規模大概是加起來多少剛剛差不多三四兆三兆七千五百億好那麼分別是兩兆七八千三百億及兩千兩百億好我們想看那麼"},{"start":11677.898,"end":11703.074,"text":"目前你提出了10項審計的意見而我很重視你特別提到防疫紓困振興決算一個部分前瞻第三期一個部分然後關於110年度的總決算提出包括安全的部分你提到交通安全、自動安全、毒品防治人口的部分你提到了少子女化的對策還有長征2.0關於居住的部分你提到都市更新、都市計畫跟青年居住是不是顯見審計長很重視這幾個項目"},{"start":11705.671,"end":11724.817,"text":"我們現在在發展關鍵議題對於國際民生很好那底下我就依序根據您的意見我來提出我的看法首先我們看到您提到下一頁提到說這一次呢111年度的決算當中有發現台電中油跟台灣中油跟台電有虧損什麼原因造成的"},{"start":11726.159,"end":11747.198,"text":"有談到燃料價格在上漲就國際燃料價格的上漲成本提高嗎對好那你就這種情況之下為了避免在我們在審計建議上我們覺得他是不是應該適當調整電價這一方面因為涉及民生問題從審計的角度是不是應該要考慮成本提升要調整"},{"start":11747.762,"end":11764.296,"text":"我比較成本要提升以外他台電因為他的那個負債他歷史費用也大他的負債是來自於之前電價低成本高所造成的那你看其他的國家電價是長得很兇其他國家的電價長得兇那我們電價報反應成本你認為從審計的角度電價報反應成本這兩間公司如果在整個"},{"start":11775.942,"end":11803.924,"text":"整個經營體制強化以後啊因為我認為應該如果再沒有要要要要反映所以你覺得目前我們電價的調整大戶漲幅高但是小戶微調你覺得這樣對於民生的衝擊是相對比較輕對已經啊有考慮到了但是啊能夠盡量考慮啊好很好所以呢我們來繼續看齁在110年度的總決算當中您提到了財政機率下一頁齁稅入稅出的平衡"},{"start":11804.38,"end":11812.354,"text":"你提到了稅入稅出的剩餘將近有5000億還了1500億的債你覺得目前的財政收支結構是否有改善了"},{"start":11812.878,"end":11838.105,"text":"因為財政收支結構就在看經常收支這一塊經常收支這一塊已經大幅改善已經有多了五、六千億上癮很好所以國家的財政體質有改善我們往下看所以你看一看各國的政府的債務比目前以台灣來看我們的債務佔GDP的比重你覺得台灣算是表現得怎麼樣"},{"start":11839.586,"end":11855.237,"text":"應該比其他國家好都來得好嘛我們只有24.1%嘛一年期以上的債務佔的GDP佔比很低嘛是不是那這個表示我們國家未來在因應國家的各種的需要各種的突發狀況我們有餘裕如果必要舉債的話我們是經得起的是不是這樣"},{"start":11855.877,"end":11872.427,"text":"對的因為還有幾兆的一兩兆的那個一兩兆的空間很好你講出了一兩兆的空間那麼防疫跟紓困振興計畫當中你提到了我請教一下這將近8300多億當中你覺得哪個部會執行的比例最高"},{"start":11874.032,"end":11888.01,"text":"因為在振興裡面是經濟部最高我不是管振興他就防疫紓困振興一般人聽到防疫紓困振興直覺就反應什麼衛福部啦買疫苗啦買口罩啦照顧這些病患花最多錢事實上是不是這樣子"},{"start":11889.091,"end":11913.593,"text":"因為在振興這一塊花掉了將近四千億沒有錯我們經濟部單單經濟部主管的就是三千三百多億關了四成衛護部主管的不到三成所以重點如果你們審計報告上你們重點要看什麼看經濟部跟這些紓困跟振興的是不是比較是重點對的我們有我們會按照但是我要跟陳議長說你們花了很多篇我再討論疫苗"},{"start":11914.582,"end":11930.505,"text":"我說一個八千三百多億的大餅要你們去審計要是我是你的話我先看什麼花最多的紓困跟振興將近多少四千億嘛當中經濟部最主要嘛花了三千三百多億嘛你知道經濟部這三千三百多億花在哪裡"},{"start":11931.807,"end":11952.207,"text":"大概補貼企業有個人的三倍券、五倍券嘛對不對三倍券、五倍券加起來差不多超過一千六百多億嘛這樣一半嘛其他的就是補貼企業減少他們的衝擊嘛所以經濟部這三千三百多億當中有一半是個人記錄對不對讓這些弱勢的可以達到補貼"},{"start":11953.388,"end":11957.471,"text":"另外的扶清企業營運遇到困難的幫助他繼續站下去"},{"start":11983.305,"end":12007.376,"text":"比例算很低吧因為這樣啦因為我們遇到緊急情況的時候要重憂重訴沒有錯就是重憂重訴的情況讓這個制度能推動對所以重要的緊急狀況重憂重訴應該關心注意的是需要幫助的有沒有得到幫助不是聚焦說少數人有沒有佔小便宜是不是這樣子對所以我要問你們你們的審計報告應該放在"},{"start":12008.957,"end":12030.582,"text":"到底這些錢花下去需要幫助的人有沒有都拿到對不對對那他們得到這個幫助之後夠不夠人都快餓死了你給他兩個包子他有得到幫助啦但是活不下去所以我要問你們的審計報告有沒有注意到經濟部這些對企業的振興或紓困有沒有幫助這些企業活起來活回來站下去有沒有"},{"start":12032.302,"end":12051.906,"text":"我們會整個看過那你們看過之後你們覺得有沒有達到你們覺得應該有的績效就是這些錢給這些需要幫助的企業或個人有幫助他繼續經營下去我們在看我們這幾年的經濟成長都非常的良好就知道這一方面就有一些那個但是我們會注意到你這樣講就讓我覺得不夠專業"},{"start":12054.847,"end":12071.589,"text":"你說這個錢花的效果看起來都活得不錯所以應該效果不錯我是覺得你們要花點時間去經濟部調一調這些資料你知道這錢花給誰嗎那些營業額不到20萬的民用統一發票的我們給他一加4萬塊你知道吧"},{"start":12072.17,"end":12075.511,"text":"所以我希望你們後續阿對於這個補貼申請跟後續營業的資料呢你們要不要秩序收集"},{"start":12098.513,"end":12125.498,"text":"不是說這個決算通過了到底這個錢有沒有效果都活得很好所以有效不信你們要用這樣的數據的方式去統計可以嗎所以說誰需要補助誰值得投資我這邊提出一個看法我過去在院外的時候提出我希望讓小店家減輕他們的稅務負擔那過去我們的起徵點20萬以下沒有統一發票的營業稅他大概是這樣4萬、8萬、服務業4萬"},{"start":12128.237,"end":12149.747,"text":"那個一般的其他的8萬那免徵到20萬之間的規模的呢1%營業稅20萬以上要用統一發票要5%的營業稅我曾經提出說可不可以把起徵點提高到20萬要開發票的才要徵營業稅而且呢20萬到50萬之間的呢我們跟他徵1%的營業稅優惠你知道這個1%的營業稅優惠的構想哪裡來嗎"},{"start":12154.588,"end":12177.145,"text":"是我們2018年賴清德院長的時候他為了鼓勵青年創業這些青年創業的他會用行動支付只要你使用行動支付你就算營業額從十幾萬變成二十幾萬、三十幾萬你都可以繼續適用1%的營業稅優惠你覺得這個政策好不好好的好的那你知道他明年要落日了嗎"},{"start":12178.035,"end":12199.521,"text":"到明年為止如果政策好效益大你也會支持繼續推動要繼續推動很好所以我就提出來了其實今年財政部就考慮要把這些小店家把起震點調高到14萬跟7萬當然離我的目標20萬還有點距離但是我接下來請看下一頁我的主張是什麼"},{"start":12200.154,"end":12209.302,"text":"就是說比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者他的營業稅本來5%給他有條件的1%的優惠而20萬以下的通通是免徵營業稅這樣子這些人將近52萬、53萬他減少的稅收只少收了34.7億你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年營業稅收了多少錢嗎"},{"start":12227.503,"end":12253.244,"text":"五千多億對五千多億少個三十幾億你覺得國家承擔得起嗎這個可以促進因為他們是小本生意能夠幫他這個因為對我們整個社會平等很重要所以你也支持謝謝那我們往下看所以在看到你的前瞻計畫前瞻三期大概2200億對不對那你覺得他有什麼效果"},{"start":12254.753,"end":12277.165,"text":"他提升了一些工作這是國科會有你們的報告裡面他創造了14萬個就業機會也帶動了4千億的民間投資你覺得划不划算這應該是划算的但是你們的審計意見當中呢要提升執行能力要加強對地方的管考還有呢未來呢有沒有沒有辦法實行民國的研究規劃我覺得你們寫的齁就很一般吶"},{"start":12278.796,"end":12302.18,"text":"創造了就業機會：帶動了民間投資未來你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8千億的前瞻建設未來的國家西方工程也繼續投資我們現在國家的財政你說大概有一兩兆的空間你知不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設這樣帶動國家基礎建設幫助國家發展的特別預算"},{"start":12306.101,"end":12308.704,"text":"對那也值得未來繼續推動好那我先問你你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的"},{"start":12324.362,"end":12343.778,"text":"希望工程國家特別預算大概要用多少?三兆兩兆一兆你覺得規模大概多少?參考到蔡總統的八年八千八百億我還是考慮到要稍微注意到財政的承受性你覺得三兆可能嗎?三兆我還是要評估這個財政的承受性那兩兆怎麼可能?兩兆"},{"start":12350.673,"end":12357.952,"text":"但是你剛剛有說到我們目前的財政結構健全嘛一兩兆的取代空間都有嘛那保守一點一兆是不是比較可以承擔的"},{"start":12359.363,"end":12387.512,"text":"我是比較偏向啊財政的永續還是永續嘛對不對但你剛提到台灣的最近幾年財政發展呢餘裕良好還有一兩兆還有建設的成本效益如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間大概一兆的空間你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2500億的花東塊去支持一個8000億的國六研發連段甚至有人評估要花兩兆的黃藻高鐵加起來三兆"},{"start":12388.272,"end":12410.366,"text":"這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎?我整個都尊重行政院還有大院的整個決議所以我就是總和我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有1、2兆的舉財空間如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫我就要評估啦往下看但是怎麼可以做呢?我們來看一下你有沒有聽過桃園機場稅休跑到塞機"},{"start":12411.496,"end":12415.52,"text":"有沒有聽過你覺得是怎麼受到影響是客運受到影響還是貨運受到影響"},{"start":12419.472,"end":12448.668,"text":"我直接告訴你啦台灣的空運啊貨運有九成六在桃園啦五成一在桃園啦桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啦影響的是貨運啦貨運當中最重要的是我們半陶體的晶片出口啦半陶體產業重不重要對台灣重不重要當然很重要而且半陶體的產業重心已經難移啊所以未來呢我們希望在南部建一個國際的貨運機場你覺得這有沒有有助於符合未來台灣十年半陶體產業的出口需求"},{"start":12450.08,"end":12468.567,"text":"整個看台積電在中南部已經都有漏腳了所以可能這個都是一個很好的評估方向那在你的那個口頭報道當中有肯定前瞻建設新規成果再投入強化特定建設110年總決算你有提到長照2.0少子化對策"},{"start":12469.187,"end":12482.249,"text":"主動方式未來繼續加強對不對對你肯定了這三項好那現在我們省錢還債之後什麼值得投資你覺得如果目前台灣的育兒情況來調查值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上"},{"start":12483.84,"end":12500.685,"text":"因為我們現在少主要幼兒的照顧非常重要非常重要好所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼就是幼兒幼保員的薪水啦其實相較於我們的國中小教師他們的薪水偏低如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水你就有沒有幫助這個當然有幫助"},{"start":12502.637,"end":12525.399,"text":"好所以我最後的結論直接跳到最後一頁我們聽今天的決算報告呢電價要合理調整我們財政的強化特別預算可以投入特定建設年度預算投資下一代幫助青年創業我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍你覺得如何我一直支持委員的意見太好了謝謝"},{"start":12527.762,"end":12530.763,"text":"謝謝總委員嘉賓的詢問再次謝謝我們陳審計長的備詢報告院會上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行審核報告之諮詢現在休息"},{"start":21595.37,"end":21598.211,"text":"報告委員會現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請羅委員志強詢問主席有請沈記長麻煩再請陳審議長備詢"},{"start":21620.56,"end":21644.891,"text":"委員好沈記長好首先我覺得審計部的決算審核就像一面照妖鏡把政府敗壞財政紀律現行了那這一點我是肯定我們審計部的一個報告能夠幫忙我們抓政府的財政以及各方面的一個漏洞也好讓立法院來協助補強所以先謝謝沈記長跟審計部"},{"start":21649.127,"end":21656.952,"text":"這是我們的主軸 謝謝那沈記長你口頭報告有提到中央政府一年以上債務未償餘額是5兆6997億元對不對"},{"start":21661.343,"end":21682.74,"text":"那這個數字換算下來﹐國人每年每人平均背負國債25萬那蔡英文政府任內特別預算經費高達2.4兆元那許多的執行期間都是到下任政府請問沈記長這算不算是另外一種債留子孫呢"},{"start":21685.051,"end":21705.117,"text":"這個整個預算的注度是這樣的沒有他會再如果通過了這個預算他會保留繼續延下去有這樣的一個情境是好當然蔡總統是否認債留子孫說他任內只增加了4000多億債務但本席認為這只是話術而已為什麼呢"},{"start":21705.797,"end":21715.404,"text":"因為蔡政府舉債的預算數確實是最高的因此因為特別預算分年編列加上稅收成長債務還本提高"},{"start":21717.906,"end":21738.497,"text":"使得舉債的帳面數字比較好看但是只要稅收不如預期債務就會失控而且將巨額且未來可能會有的計劃預算全數編列進特別預算並且對外宣稱年年勝於財政很健康這我認為其實就是欺騙人民而且無視財政紀律"},{"start":21739.918,"end":21765.698,"text":"那我看過過去就是109年度監察院的報告曾指出我國特別預算之編列有常態化的現象中央政府恐有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計劃特別預算造成年度然後總預算財政收支平衡之假象那想請教"},{"start":21766.879,"end":21793.38,"text":"沈記長你認同這一份報告裡面的說法嗎那特別預算常態化對未來財政造成的影響會是什麼這一個我們是希望在編特別預算的時候要出損勝的態度對那像我們現在特別預算照這個監察院的之前的報告已經有常態化的現象這常態化的現象對我們財政機率的影響是什麼"},{"start":21794.92,"end":21823.066,"text":"這個要看相對的有沒有財源這個整個是不是這個預算該不該編可能還是比較重要因為一個建設他會創造國家的一些效能效益所以我是比較常希望那個計畫要考慮在評估的比較順重一點我跟沈縣長說明一下其實中間也不只是常在的問題"},{"start":21824.338,"end":21849.652,"text":"事實上特別預算對行政機關也有變異形式當然它可能也是比較方便所以帶有變異形式也比較容易逃避監督所以換言之特別預算不是不可以但是如果腐爛編列常態化的去編列的話當然會對財政機率造成衝擊所以這一點的話是我想說也是要提醒一下我們行政部門不要"},{"start":21850.732,"end":21871.861,"text":"把特別預算當作自己好像是非常方便使用的私房錢一樣的概念那立法院之所以存在常態化的預算監督其實為的就是使錢能夠用在刀口之上能夠透明化讓全民來去檢驗預算的合理性這點我不知道沈記長您認同嗎?這我認同"},{"start":21874.261,"end":21891.91,"text":"那麼當然其實蔡總統說啦他說前瞻計畫的目標是讓國家建設更多更快更貼近民眾的需求所以讓城鄉建設可以做得更好但是我看到依照我們審計部的決算報告前瞻第三期特別預算的分支計畫"},{"start":21892.91,"end":21921.28,"text":"有超過6成位於特別預算執行期間完成其中軌道建設部分第三期特別預算的實現率只有65.1%其中10項計畫甚至沒有實現數主要是因為也沒有經過行政院核定那我想請教沈記長有印象這10項所謂的沒有實現數的計畫是哪些呢"},{"start":21923.486,"end":21950.297,"text":"非常抱歉我手上沒有這個資料但是我們的同仁我們的整個有這些資料因為大部分都是在做像那個嘉義市的那個高價評估啦各方面這些他沒有沒有實現是因為軌道的建設啊涉及的很多啦那個要經過計畫評估可行性的評估各方面啦他還有細部的評估啊他都是要很慎重好"},{"start":21951.618,"end":21979.844,"text":"我跟沈記長補充其中兩項我也特別關切就是臺中捷運藍線以及臺中捷運綠線延伸彰化這兩項計畫都是報告中所指無時限速的計畫那個藍線跟綠線延伸都在2017年納入前瞻計畫直到今年選後才分別獲得行政院合併綜合計畫可行性研究"},{"start":21980.704,"end":22004.889,"text":"實際上我覺得省紀部的報告很公允雖然也是客觀還原實際的情況但是你也知道之前這個台中的方面很多人在吵到底是誰在卡台中的捷運我覺得這上面很清楚十項的未實現數有兩項是台中的捷運藍線跟綠線延伸行政院根本在這個部分實際上是處在一個"},{"start":22005.609,"end":22022.498,"text":"沒有積極作為的地方所以誰卡地方建設我倒是覺得從省紀部的報告當中卻看得很清楚那接下來我要看看中央對地方補助的部分依照省紀部報告截至111年底中央主管機關合訂計劃總經費總共是9900億元左右"},{"start":22029.082,"end":22031.003,"text":"那合定的補助總數是5358億4202萬元請問沈記長你知道哪個縣市獲得的這個補助是最多哪個縣市六都裡面誰是最少的"},{"start":22045.573,"end":22061.667,"text":"合訂的補製合訂的補製是高雄市最多一千兩百多億實際上撥補的是新北市是比較多的那六都中台中是少的"},{"start":22062.927,"end":22081.832,"text":"但是剛剛委員有講這兩個計畫合併下去台中已經躍升合併補助的900多億我看到的部分我想是六都六都目前台北市是最少台北市是184億那高雄合併獲得中央是1265億那自籌是810億元佔總經費的39%台北市不只是今天只有"},{"start":22092.162,"end":22099.876,"text":"高雄市的尾數而已事實上在六都排名最後全國排名第九而且80%的經費都要自籌"},{"start":22102.659,"end":22128.818,"text":"所以這是外界其實對於所謂的到底為什麼今天我們中央對地方的補助5300多億你核定高雄就1265億將近四分之一這核定的基準也難免讓外界有一些疑問說難道是今天是看顏色來撥補嗎所以我也希望說今天透過審計部的報告我希望給我們的國人以及行政機關一個警訊"},{"start":22131.34,"end":22149.598,"text":"就是說也要顧及說今天各個縣市的建設需求當然不是說不能夠撥補而不能夠核定補助可是你的分配如此懸殊單一縣市就佔掉了將近四分之一然後呢其他縣台中也只有兩百多億啊"},{"start":22150.379,"end":22161.128,"text":"然後呢 台北市是184億那這樣的一個數字出來的時候當然對於其他縣市的民眾可能就會有一種厚恥薄彼的感覺嘛我不知道沈記長覺得呢"},{"start":22163.086,"end":22187.634,"text":"因為建設有前有後臺北市的捷運是坐在比較前面但是高雄正在興建所以會有產生那台中的部分他都在規劃中或者送合訂中所以會有產生這個有差別的情況但是一般都希望都按照計劃的情形來合訂補助"},{"start":22189.558,"end":22194.84,"text":"審計部報告當中又提到,前瞻計畫地方政府自籌4542億,佔總經費45.88%,地方已經編列預算只有1514億,只佔中央合併自籌經費的33%。"},{"start":22209.964,"end":22224.602,"text":"上有巨額的經費要於以後年度繼續籌編：那各縣是在既定有限的預算資源之下：為了籌編分擔款：將排擠其他計畫財源之籌措：這是剛剛我再稍微回應一下剛剛主計長您講的"},{"start":22226.184,"end":22244.161,"text":"投入的經費的核定是一回事實際上我們也看到關於自籌的部分我剛才前面講了高雄的自籌相對來講獲得比較好的分配它自籌的比例比較低但是台北市的話自籌我看到數字就是將近八成"},{"start":22244.801,"end":22271.908,"text":"所以我講的也不只是絕對的數字也包括所謂自籌的這樣的一個分配所以兩相比較起來當然我是必須講說即便說今天很多人拿說哪些縣市的這個發展可能它比較有所謂的發展比較早比較快或它財源比較充裕可是我剛剛已經講了光台中來講就不是這一回事你可以講台北跟高雄你說有一個落差但台中跟高雄我不認為有什麼太大的落差"},{"start":22273.148,"end":22292.893,"text":"那當然剛剛主席講到說那是因為行政院這個合併的狀況這就是問題之所在嘛所以常常有人質疑說今天搞了半天你卡住台中的建設你在行政院的部分你合併並不積極你沒有積極的幫助台中市的時候那連帶就影響到連剛剛主席講的這個前瞻的經費的"},{"start":22295.915,"end":22318.294,"text":"撥補或是補助的合定也產生連動的影響這些不是都是相關的嗎我不知道主席想怎麼看對這個是會產生一些相關我再想請教前瞻建設的八大建設之一的食品安全然後總共編列30億元的預算可是對照今天食安事件頻傳"},{"start":22320.031,"end":22347.744,"text":"那我是不太清楚我們的食安的這個預算到底是花在什麼樣的地方有沒有發揮它實際的功效我舉幾個具體的數字也給沈記長參考我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候曾經有問過請教他過兩個問題其實坦白講我是有點失望因為那時候他在講說他的蔡英文政府的食安表現遠遠的好過馬英九政府時候的食安表現"},{"start":22348.664,"end":22368.211,"text":"他只要舉出的數字舉出的數字只有一個啦他說因為這個陳院長跟蔡總統主政之下我們的系統性食安問題只有兩件蔡英文政府只有兩件所以食安做的真的是非常的棒結果呢他講完之後主席知道發生什麼事情嗎"},{"start":22369.946,"end":22382.382,"text":"就蘇丹鴻啊對 蘇丹鴻在報告食安的時候我都說陳建仁是烏鴉嘴啊他才誇口質疑食安信友系食安問題最少結果講的當下蘇丹鴻就爆發"},{"start":22383.857,"end":22405.227,"text":"不到幾天五萬衛福部部長薛部長就直接承認蘇丹紅就是系統性食安問題那第二個也很離譜啊我覺得真的我們陳建銘院長真的是個烏鴉嘴你知道嗎為什麼因為我就問他說我不太理解我們的院長的報告一直說自己的食安做得好棒棒嘛政府做得很差勁"},{"start":22406.568,"end":22431.519,"text":"結果呢我看到食品中毒的人數竟然每年蔡英文執政這8年比馬英九執政這8年每年多400人8年算起來快要3000多人啊那我想請教我們院長說那請問我看食品中毒人數暴增你怎麼會覺得你的食安做得比較好呢主要你知道我們的陳靜蕾院長怎麼回答我你知道嗎"},{"start":22434.346,"end":22460.223,"text":"你不知道啦你一定不知道啦他說食品中毒不是食安問題啊他還不只講一次我的質詢一直插話跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題結果我後來再去質詢薛部長我就不服氣啊我說食品中毒怎麼不是食安問題吃到肚子裡可能健康受損甚至可能奪到人命怎麼不是食安問題薛部長就很誠實啊直接跟我講食品中毒就是食安問題啊"},{"start":22461.597,"end":22488.066,"text":"結果我一個月前直批我們的政府食品中毒的管制做不好結果院長跟我講食品中毒不是食安問題請問最近發生什麼事情?那個有保齡的事件對啊保齡事件啊鬧出人命來所以我要講就是說今天我們政府預算也給你啦就像省政府報告講的啊"},{"start":22489.168,"end":22508.642,"text":"編列30億元的預算給你啊那我想請問到底我們現在政府對於食安的部分給你預算、給你經費你有把食安做好嗎?我不知道沈縣長怎麼去看你們自己在審核過程當中政府對於食安的這件事情真的有做到該做的所有的事情嗎?"},{"start":22510.762,"end":22525.827,"text":"我們會從這個十萬五環裡面的沿途管理各方面都給相關單位一些審核意見希望他們去重視非常謝謝沈紀長以上感謝謝謝樓委員志強的詢問也謝謝陳沈紀長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號紅委員申翰詢問"},{"start":22549.686,"end":22551.508,"text":"主教請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長備詢王委員好"},{"start":22563.952,"end":22579.91,"text":"呃,審議長好吼那這一次我們看到審計部針對這個111年的中央政府總預算還有紓困振興的特別決算提出這個審核的報告那我們讀了這個裡面審查的一些意見但有幾點我想要再跟審議長來做一個討論跟請教吼"},{"start":22582.714,"end":22592.852,"text":"那第一個點是想跟審議長討論的是關於在紓困振興計畫上面其實在第一項意見中審查報告上面寫了一段這個他寫說這個"},{"start":22596.673,"end":22622.741,"text":"政府辦理各項紓困補貼措施：有助緩解受疫情影響的產業跟個人衝擊但有重複發放或補貼對象資格不符的情勢發生衍生後續追繳行政作業成本那未來如果辦理類似補貼措施的話應該要完善政策及作業規劃使政府施政更增周延"},{"start":22624.017,"end":22643.466,"text":"我其實看了這一段以後我就回想到那時候包括從2020年當時在疫情一開始的時候大家就討論那時候規劃要做所謂的紓困金那這個紓困金要發放給民眾的時候其實大家一直講到有一類的對象我不知道沈議長還記不記得就是那些賣玉蘭花"},{"start":22644.167,"end":22671.802,"text":"或者是在入口這個舉牌子的這些你說他是勞工嗎他其實不是正式的勞工但他確實是付出一個最底層的勞動力在工作的這個狀況那這些非典型的勞動的民眾其實當時大家一直在討論我們到底能用什麼方式可以把這個所謂紓困金或他們需要的資源能夠發放給他們因為他確實是當時可能受影響最大的而且是社會最邊緣的這個狀況"},{"start":22673.743,"end":22695.251,"text":"那後來我們發現這個設計就有重重的困難因為在廣義的社會救助的體系裡面其實在制度上面這一群人其實都是被漏掉的一塊所以也不一定我們能夠去用所謂的中低收入戶的部分可以涵蓋他們因為他們很可能也不在中低收入戶的這個涵蓋的範圍裡面所以後來討論很久"},{"start":22699.753,"end":22719.407,"text":"這個公務員其實也提到一個問題說他們有時候會有點擔心會不會有違法會不會有議領這個狀況那尤其是議領會面對審計部門的檢討那我們看到這個報告當然就檢討了這件事情可是我今天為什麼要特別提出來跟審議長討論我其實覺得這個檢討本身我覺得是有值得討論的空間的"},{"start":22724.98,"end":22741.143,"text":"我們其實當初在設計這個紓困金制度的時候當時就是找不到合適的機制跟方法所以後來選擇了用所謂疾難救助的做法那這個疾難救助的做法它其實就是以家戶為單位嘛所以講清楚嘛"},{"start":22742.011,"end":22766.931,"text":"用加護人單位的時候可是這裡面會有很多自助不相符的問題所以那時候跟行政院談了很久最後討論必須用一個切結書一個比較彈性的方式處理這個問題但切結書當然不是一個根本處理的方法但是沒有辦法我們就沒有找到一個邏輯清楚對應到這一群人的做法其實現在我們看到這個沈議長我看到你們的表示這個"},{"start":22770.571,"end":22799.227,"text":"這個審核報告中的表示裡面看到在衛福部這一項數據上面應追繳的有1億4818萬元那目前已經追繳的大概只有4000多萬元也就是大概還有1億元沒有追繳相比於其他部會的其他部會有些其實追繳的狀況程度很高有一些其實已經追繳大部分都能夠追繳到但是在這一項衛福部這一項顯然很難追繳得到"},{"start":22801.107,"end":22829.387,"text":"那個沈議長我很擔心喔當你這份報告出來以後我們未來假設要再設計相關的制度的時候其實公務員的心態又會保守為什麼說怕他們保守當初其實就是因為他們很怕會發生易領的狀況所以就想要把這個機制設計的很複雜因為怕易領可是當他一設計複雜的時候就會把很多人又排除在外了沈議長你對這事情怎麼看"},{"start":22831.021,"end":22849.511,"text":"行政院對發生這個疫情的時候是用從優從市重檢會方好的一個原則這個原則要能夠繼續再一直往前推後面不容好像說有人會議領其實我們這個我們查到的"},{"start":22850.191,"end":22870.696,"text":"查到的不會說他是他的所得啊綜合所得啊有超過100萬以上的因為勞動部是定債50萬所以這一部分我們請他再看看因為這和我們的規定不符所以這個是有這樣的情形我這邊我要跟你討論的事情是"},{"start":22872.97,"end":22900.173,"text":"其實因為我們當初用急難救助這個項目他是用家戶去算所以可能我舉個例子我們可能有一個家庭其實一個父親也許他因為他的工作的關係或他因為個性的關係其實被這個家庭給逐出去了可能他的太太小孩其實日子過得不錯但這個爸爸卻因為其實他被逐出家裡所以他的生活過得非常非常的困難"},{"start":22901.892,"end":22923.224,"text":"像這種人你要他回到家裡面他回不去了他沒有辦法再接受到家裡面的幫助因為各種原因家裡面的原因把他給趕出去了可是我們需要幫助他但是在這種狀況之下我們因為用家戶來計算的時候會看起來他是沒有問題的這是我們現在制度設計上面的盲點"},{"start":22924.795,"end":22951.217,"text":"那也因為我們其實等於是會有很多制度設計的缺漏的問題所以我自己覺得我當時我就覺得對於有可能不一定那種百分百精準的狀況我們應該要容錯率高一點不然我們層層設計的設計一個複雜的機制設計的要切得很乾淨盡量沒有容錯的機制的時候像我剛才說的這個爸爸他就會被踢出去了他就會被視為"},{"start":22953.001,"end":22973.042,"text":"你沒有資格可以請領紓困金的人可是在那個當下他就是需要的人他就是我們需要幫助的人這是現在我們看到你在事後的審計的過程裡面但我知道審計是一門很重要的專業我沒有要去挑戰這件事我也都很尊重可是我覺得我們在這個相關表面的時候我也很擔心我們的公務員"},{"start":22973.742,"end":22984.97,"text":"如果只是單純看這上面的審計報告的這樣子結論的時候未來我們在機制設計的時候你又把它設計的繁複又把它設計的這個排除性很高怕錯誤"},{"start":22986.101,"end":23005.174,"text":"怕易領的話反而該幫助的人不一定幫助得到?委員這個很好,大概我們第一個勞動部和我談他說我超過100萬和我們訂的50萬訂的那個標準是超過很多這是公平的問題"},{"start":23006.243,"end":23030.466,"text":"但是委員所剛剛講的有產生極難的部分我們我要勞動部也應該說這一個要怎麼樣去幫忙他這一個是我們有考慮可是我現在講的是衛福部啊因為今天就是衛福部啊都是這樣的一個情況那就再來因為從優從事重檢是政府的政策我們沒有追究任何"},{"start":23031.587,"end":23056.148,"text":"一個公務人員在做這件事的人因為當時的環境也必須要這樣做但我很希望沈議長我覺得我們其實也透過疫情的過程我們再重新檢視我們這些機制有沒有缺漏的地方有沒有哪一群我們其實一直想要幫助的人可是我們既有機制一直觸及不到他們或找不到一個相對比較有邏輯清晰的路徑去觸及到他們坦白說我們發現還不少"},{"start":23057.529,"end":23081.644,"text":"這是我們制度上面要去修正包括法規上面法規的邏輯要去修訂的地方我自己很希望說接下來也許像我們的審核的報告裡面或審計的報告裡面其實我們可以把這些深層的原因給點出來不只是呈現說是不是有易領、追繳等等等我自己看到說如果我們單純從這個數字的表面來看的話其實很可能公務員他就會有一個比較保守的心態盡量不要出錯"},{"start":23082.344,"end":23082.665,"text":"是否是否"},{"start":23100.586,"end":23115.764,"text":"英國的經營很清楚他一開始的時候我給你幫助我願意可以把門開大一點寬鬆一點我讓你都進來可是你進來以後我可能做法是我也要你盡一些責任這個責任可能是你要提供一些勞務或者是你要"},{"start":23116.653,"end":23132.086,"text":"去就業所以我開始幫你媒合就業所以他把門開大了以後他的作用是我透過這個機制或這個社會的救助來導正你進入到一個正軌而不是只是純粹的給你錢或給你幫忙而已所以在英國機制裡面你看到的事情是說"},{"start":23132.886,"end":23156.83,"text":"他們是把一開始把門開的比較大比較寬鬆比較沒那麼嚴格但他後續的機制的設計裡面他有一個蠻強的導引性的作用在那個地方我覺得都很值得我們來參考所以以後我自己是希望說我們審計部在做相關審核的時候我覺得也可以把這些事情也可以思考進去至少在我們公務部門行政部門在看到在讀的時候或在"},{"start":23157.45,"end":23164.861,"text":"去做check的時候他可以有一些想法上面的刺激不然如果只是單純從表面來看的話這是我們會憂心的事情"},{"start":23165.731,"end":23187.145,"text":"報告委員我們審計不會創造那個審核標準我們的審核標準完全依照行政機部門所訂出來的的一個制度剛剛委員這樣講如果是這樣的制度我們完全尊重這樣的制度是但是我要提醒就是說我們在寫審核報告的時候我覺得"},{"start":23188.342,"end":23214.052,"text":"不只是留於表面上面的數字這是第一點我想要跟審議長討論的第二點這個審議長我們在你們的報告裡面有看到一個部分是看到在這個紓困政績的特別預算審核報告裡面的意見的第七項有一個是針對這個COVID-19染疫康復者跨科別整合醫療照顧服務不再續判的這件事情我看到審計部其實有提供了一些意見"},{"start":23215.168,"end":23235.071,"text":"那其實這個關於COVID的染疫康復者的跨科別整合醫療照顧服務其實是我在2021年10月的時候向衛福部提出一個這個建議那因為當時其實已經越來越多的染疫者在康復的經驗裡面發現他其實留下蠻多的後遺症也就是大家所謂說的長新冠就是Long COVID的這個狀況"},{"start":23236.252,"end":23255.226,"text":"而且這個Long Covid他其實他就會遇到他不知道去看哪一科因為科別可能包括耳鼻喉科可能包括身心科可能包括胸腔科可能包括腹腱科很不知道哪一科所以當時就希望有一個這個整合的門診那這個整合門診也符合那我現在看到審計部的報告裡面有講到"},{"start":23256.71,"end":23275.055,"text":"去年11月衛福部把這個長新冠的整合門診停止可是相關的數字台灣確診的人數目前看起來是有超過1000萬大概只有8861名有Long Covid的醫療照顧可是可能只有大概三成2669人有接受整合門診的會診的服務就這個陳議長你來看的話為什麼大概只有三成左右"},{"start":23285.114,"end":23311.839,"text":"有接受整合服務?你覺得原因是什麼?這一個部分我們在意只是希望他這一個不要停你希望他不要停嗎?對,我們是叫他不要停沈議長你們這看法跟我一樣那我們也希望往下再去討論他之所以停我自己覺得看起來因為他看起來他只有三成三成我就很好奇到底你是你原本門診的量能不足還是你宣傳不足還是沒有這個需求沈議長你覺得?"},{"start":23313.51,"end":23340.412,"text":"因為這個我們一直對民眾的健康我們一直也很關照是所以整個剛剛委員在談的包括前面那個我們損失的立場不遺漏盡頭準得取肉數的我們更為更加注意所以應該這一個部分我們也是請衛福部能夠稍微再看看能夠幫忙這些"},{"start":23341.572,"end":23358.206,"text":"所以我們當時提出這樣的一個意見事實上現在一直到現在都還有人在染疫只是現在媒體沒有像前面三年這樣子每天去追蹤染疫的數字或染疫的人現在還有人在染疫其實現在染疫以後還是有可能會有長新冠的狀況發生"},{"start":23359.887,"end":23388.013,"text":"那如果你遇到長新患長新患的狀況你可能也一樣後遺症你也不知道自己到底病因是什麼地方或哪裡造成你的問題所以我非常非常同意其實到現在還是有整合門診的需求尤其是我們看到像美國CDC的這個報告裡面他說5個人裡面的COVID就有一個有Long COVID65歲以上的話是4個人裡面就有一個所以我們是有這個需求的所以我們也希望接下來包括像審計部裡面當然可以在"},{"start":23388.593,"end":23414.823,"text":"以這個角度再提醒我們的衛福部不要只是以經濟效益去計算或來做這個判斷其實我們現在當下還是有這個需求這個不要好像變成不在那個染疫關注COVID的期間大家轉移的目標現在好像11月就草草把這些整合門整個關掉我們未來也會來追蹤但是很謝謝沈記長在你們的報告裡面其實做了這個方面的提醒"},{"start":23415.123,"end":23441.419,"text":"那不然我坦白說當時我們提出這個政策建議我也是在你們審核的報告裡面看到居然在11月停了可是看起來我們是還有需求這部分我覺得可以跟審計部我們可以一起來努力啦好我們會來追蹤整個衛福部對這個方面的檢討情形怎麼樣來盡量的來滿足這些發生這些不掌力的民眾的一些需求好謝謝 沈院長謝謝"},{"start":23445.131,"end":23451.173,"text":"好謝謝洪委員深悍的質詢也謝謝陳審議長的備詢接下來我們請登記第13位王委員洪威詢問好謝謝主席我請審計長再請陳審計長備詢"},{"start":23476.567,"end":23480.156,"text":"好,沈議長辛苦了沈議長請教一下"},{"start":23483.212,"end":23509.218,"text":"這一本我們今天主要是針對包含前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告那事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了對不對那我也不曉得為什麼我們的這個諮詢會排在這麼之後我還以為有最新的審計報告去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力"},{"start":23510.558,"end":23535.268,"text":"就是當時有關於尤其前瞻計劃就是在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府市上補助款有嚴重的落差比如說那時候台北市才184億但是呢高雄有1200多億所以那個時候曾經有一個話題我知道你們其實壓力非常大所以我想請教沈記長"},{"start":23537.429,"end":23553.507,"text":"這個尤其去年這樣的壓力會不會影響我們審計部未來在對行政院各個不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的你們的這些尺度和標準會不會"},{"start":23554.684,"end":23559.788,"text":"我把這本書幾乎也都翻過一遍事實上我還蠻佩服我們審計部同仁的一個努力所以我希望我們審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的一個功能跟你們的這樣的責任那另外我要請教了"},{"start":23584.807,"end":23590.218,"text":"今年我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵有高達3700億請問一下這個金額審計部合定了嗎"},{"start":23595.012,"end":23617.727,"text":"如果1、2年他的行政院還在辦結算他4月底會送到監察院監察院會交給審計部來作審所以還沒有辦合定嘛對不對我們到7月底才會審訊出來可是我告訴那個沈記長現在的這個行政院經濟部其實就已經偷跑"},{"start":23618.607,"end":23632.419,"text":"好為什麼偷跑呢因為4月1號昨天開始漲電價那麼他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢所以之前先宣布了撥補1000億"},{"start":23634.241,"end":23661.826,"text":"但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵沒有進行核定可是行政院先把這一千億先要撥補給台電所以這個部分這當然是屬於今年度的不是在我們今天在資議的這個諮詢的這個111年度可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情因為不能便宜行事"},{"start":23662.746,"end":23687.335,"text":"為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅：然後確定這個稅收超車的撥補：所以事實上是違反相關規定我在這邊直接的先跟那個沈記長先做這樣的一個說明另外我想請問沈記長前瞻金屬建設現在進入就是你們現在核定是第三期"},{"start":23688.53,"end":23702.582,"text":"我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力如果以我們現在地方財政一期、二期、三期因為我們當時就在講因為前瞻"},{"start":23704.264,"end":23724.471,"text":"八千八百億事實上呢我們的地方政府要負擔一半所以對地方政府的財政來講是一個非常大的負擔所以果不其然你看到你們今天的審計報告裡面第一期我們地方政府的自籌經費的比例是89%"},{"start":23726.38,"end":23752.698,"text":"到了第二期只剩下84%第三期更是後繼無力只剩下65%而你們合定的報告裡面特別有提到就是第一期到第三期現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設那麼所有編列的預算只佔中央合定自籌經費的33.33%就是1%的意思了"},{"start":23756.68,"end":23758.181,"text":"對於地方的財政"},{"start":23776.61,"end":23794.899,"text":"我們審計部看到的相關報告是不是會真的感受到地方財政要補足潛在基礎建設要求的自籌經費事實上是已經有後立無期的狀況我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況是"},{"start":23796.038,"end":23813.045,"text":"那他們有任何的改善嗎?這個經費全部編下去啊地方就要有配合款啊他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候他們會注意到這件事情我覺得啊已經到三期了現在才讓這個"},{"start":23815.376,"end":23839.61,"text":"行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦第一個地方財政當然會希望你最好中央多補一點錢給我對不對我不希望我自己自愁壓力非常非常的重而且你補助款就如同我這邊講因為我去年我們討論很多就不在這邊浪費時間你們補助款也有大小眼啊對不對台幣是這麼少然後"},{"start":23840.41,"end":23861.201,"text":"高雄那麼多我不要講我到時候我還會我還在查就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼喔還在大小眼就是你今天不能夠中央第一個你不能不公平不均第二個你不要拖累地方讓地方的財政負擔過重"},{"start":23862.342,"end":23874.83,"text":"所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好或者是公務預算我覺得我們審計不到本於這樣的原則好不好另外有一個在你們特別提到我覺得蠻重要的"},{"start":23875.629,"end":23896.755,"text":"就是對於國防部我們對美的軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購但是呢我們國防部因為很大方台灣很大方對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付這個我想沈機長應該知道"},{"start":23898.095,"end":23925.73,"text":"可是問題來了你現金支付之後有一些他的合約會中止別說我用現金支付準備金可是問題是合約中止你就應該還給我可是以你們在審計部的報告裡面到111年度這還不含112或到現在已經合約中止但是呢我們停滯在美國的"},{"start":23927.14,"end":23937.394,"text":"這個準備金就高達新台幣118億照理說美方應該結案之後退還給台灣但是他沒有退還回來"},{"start":23938.308,"end":23960.594,"text":"那所以現在現在我們又會未來還是要繼續去買軍購那這個問題怎麼解決呢這一百一十八億啊我覺得要去要回來有他的難處可是未來我們還是這樣我們未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金然後呢合約中止他還是不退給你這一百一十八億以後不知道會不會變兩百億三百億四百億五百億的下去"},{"start":23961.454,"end":23984.828,"text":"所以其實你們有要求國防部要求他們用單保信用賺取代現金因為你們其實查得蠻清楚因為你們去查了美國的相關的軍售的相關的他的辦法裡面他是可以接受用單保信用賺對不對可是我們軍方沒有就是這樣傻傻的一直付現金然後錢也要不回來那我想請問"},{"start":23986.269,"end":24011.69,"text":"沈記長,你們這個部分有沒有追蹤呢?國防部說,好啊,那我們就開始來研究啊。那麼112年度他們有用嗎?今年度他們有用嗎?下一年度,我們幾乎每年都要跟美國去買軍之獸啊。這些我們如果是傻傻的一直用現金,那麼以後還不曉得有多少idol在美國都要不回來。"},{"start":24012.691,"end":24033.787,"text":"所以沈記長這個部分因為這裡面非常非常細我也希望審計部能夠繼續的去盯緊軍方督導國防部不要再做冤大頭啦如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金我們為什麼不做更何況其實呢"},{"start":24036.328,"end":24064.522,"text":"在你們的報告裏面後來我才看到其實狀況非常嚴重這也是你們報告裏面除了那118億之外我們還有這個時間比較久也100年度之前我們都已經結會給美方但是呢美方事實上這裏面有一些他要結一塊也是要還給我們的高達多少錢他沒有還給我們你知道嗎"},{"start":24067.798,"end":24091.335,"text":"50億所以我剛要講118億加50億你看光是在111年度之前就有超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們我們現在都比較關切的是你軍購你應該交給我們武器你延宕對不對我們現在大部分大家都在關心這個部分"},{"start":24092.298,"end":24119.818,"text":"可是大家很少去關心所以我也很高興我也很肯定省進部注意到這個問題我們錢應該要回來卻沒有要回來我剛才講了合約中止就應該把準備金還給我沒有還給我高達118億還有就是我已經跟你都結親可是這有一些部分你的錢要還給我的也沒有還給我"},{"start":24121.179,"end":24144.484,"text":"軍方都無力去討錢捏碰到美國沒有能力去討錢所以第一個部分你們已經給國防部一個指引說請你用擔保信用狀不要再用現金了第二部分那麼現在自存美方的這個結餘款50億這也應該要督促軍方要把它討回來可不可以"},{"start":24145.489,"end":24172.452,"text":"報告委員 那個50億我們已經要回來了目前就要回來了嗎這是100年度以前的對不對都要回來了對 118億的這個我們也要他趕快和美國談注意剛剛講的擔保信用帳那一個部分美方希望是用它美國的我們希望用我們那個兆豐這個方面所以這邊這個方面還在談"},{"start":24173.933,"end":24199.36,"text":"所以他美方希望是用美國的銀行用他美國準備銀行的那我們是希望用我們國內的信用狀所以兩方還在做這方面的討論這個要盯他們要盡快好不好不要再傻傻用現金了好不好但要現金都要不回來好另外有一個議題也請審計部呢也是幫忙能夠去盯最近呢我們食安聯環報"},{"start":24201.241,"end":24213.453,"text":"那麼大家都在檢討說不管是我們一年編列食安的預算大概一年將近100億或者前瞻編列食安的部分大概400億超過400億那為什麼這麼多的預算還會食安連環保"},{"start":24219.155,"end":24241.777,"text":"包括這些我們要興建國家級的實驗大樓我們要對邊際查驗快速通關的管理系統我們要增加我們的檢驗能量BRABRABRA一大堆都要錢那麼錢都給了碰到食安怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢可是問題是最近就發生了"},{"start":24243.188,"end":24264.122,"text":"我們要做食安大樓我們要擴增我們的檢驗的量呢那最近大家討論最多的米酵菌栓那麼竟然發現整個衛福部剛開始呢他們急得跟熱鍋上螞蟻一樣為什麼他們沒有標準品"},{"start":24264.742,"end":24289.399,"text":"因為你到去檢驗你必須要有標準品後來呢是彰化基督教醫院來救命啊他說我們有提供給衛福部所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部你比不上一個彰化基督教醫院那麼後來我們也發現這些有關於一些所謂的硬體建設比如說他要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓"},{"start":24291.64,"end":24316.709,"text":"結果出現了他的執行率偏低的問題對不對對這個因為他第一期就編了到現在還沒有進度到現在已經順利當時是幾次的流標了現在已經進度已經快百分之二十了到現在百分之二十對到現在才百分之二十因為前幾次都是挖爆不出氣了"},{"start":24317.694,"end":24334.802,"text":"所以沈議長你會不會覺得這個要錢急吼吼然後呢等到執行的部分然後要這個20多億要去蓋大樓我就講嘛食安的預算沒有人敢擋它結果呢現在呢它的執行率"},{"start":24335.422,"end":24363.463,"text":"就是因為說要說什麼合約期程啦跨年度啦要保留就是保留預算他保留他跟你們就是設計保留預算繼續執行所以這個部分到目前只有20%所以沈記長你會不會覺得在整個這麼重要的一環整個前瞻基礎建設裡面食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是"},{"start":24364.784,"end":24366.085,"text":"謝謝王委員、洪威樂詢問也謝謝陳審計長的備詢"},{"start":24392.864,"end":24396.665,"text":"接下來我們請登記第14號羅委員美玲詢問謝謝主席有請審計長再請陳審計長備詢羅委員好"},{"start":24420.058,"end":24442.896,"text":"審計長好辛苦了就如我們今天的審計報告所提到我們審計部的主要的這個職責呢就是督促政府呢進行良善治理實現這個國家永續的這個發展所以審計部呢對一些民生等重大議題呢都納入了主要的查核的這個要點可是本席發現就是說有關這個族群的議題審計"},{"start":24444.482,"end":24458.875,"text":"這裏是比較少在碰觸的比如說有關這個新住民的這個議題那本期我發現就是說有關於新住民發展基金移民署裏面有個新住民發展基金已經連續兩年連續兩年出現這個短處的這個狀況而且是連續兩年都必須以用以前的資金餘額來做這個支應"},{"start":24467.842,"end":24484.303,"text":"這部分可能這審計部應該要特別來做留意的那當然本席很能夠理解為什麼會出現這個短處的這現象比如說像基金的使用是更趨這個多元化比如說新住民跟新住民二代的這個賠利也好或是特殊境遇的這個補助甚至新住民"},{"start":24485.404,"end":24485.624,"text":"是來自於這個"},{"start":24504.637,"end":24525.581,"text":"房地合一稅或是宜貞稅或是菸捐等等可是菸稅等等可是新住民發展的發展基金的財源它是屬於這個公務預算所以我們在想說它財源的不夠多元這部分的話是不是說審計部在做查核的部分這個部分可能需要審計部來去做了解這部分的話這個審計長這邊有沒有怎麼樣的建議嗎"},{"start":24529.059,"end":24533.162,"text":"新住民新住民也算我們的再相對向是弱勢他的新住民基金其實要的也不多"},{"start":24545.911,"end":24561.986,"text":"我們有兩兆快三兆的那個財源他只是要幾億我的立場是希望行政院或者相關編列預算的部門都給他們充足的資源來保障這些弱勢的我很肯對沈縣長您的回答"},{"start":24569.373,"end":24595.857,"text":"我非常肯定尤其是連續兩年都已經有這個短處的這個現象所以說我在希望說行政院這一部分也聽到審計長的這個回應就是非常友善的回應就是說有關於這個預算規模的部分可以來增加那再來我們有看到就是說雖然說我們新竹發展基金這個預算有短處的這個現象可是我們發現說它其實部分有些業務其實執行率不是那麼的好是不佳的"},{"start":24596.377,"end":24608.973,"text":"例如我們剛才這報告裏面有提到說我們對於少子女化對策對策計劃裏面截至112年底那行政院其實已經投入了3688億的經費包含了這個幼兒的托育"},{"start":24612.677,"end":24630.357,"text":"可是我們發現這個新住民發展基金裡面他這個辦理新住民家庭成長及子女托育多元文化計劃裡面的其實他的執行率的112年度其實只有64.34%所以這部分的話可能也是我們"},{"start":24631.158,"end":24660.299,"text":"省紀部應該要去了解的這個部分因為新住民每一年有將近兩萬人來到台灣這個大家庭我想這個托育的需求絕對是有的可是我們發現說這部分他們的這執行率呢比我們想像中的還要低很多所以我想所以我在想說這部分省紀部是不是也應該要在查核的時候發現這個問題到底這個部分為什麼是執行率是如這比我們想像中的還要低很多"},{"start":24661.119,"end":24677.085,"text":"我們會再來督促列正部對這方面加強因為新住民這一個部分我們要有一個給他一個友善的環境我們會來努力是謝謝今天沈記長很快速跟這個肯定的這個支持所以我在想說"},{"start":24678.425,"end":24698.934,"text":"新住民,尤其是新住民來到台灣,如果含第二代的話,其實已經超過百萬人了。我想他們的這個敬意也好,福利也好,都是我們中央政府必須要來重視的。那我也不希望就是說,因為他可能是屬於比較少數的族群,那"},{"start":24699.634,"end":24721.141,"text":"中央對這部分會比較忽略那尤其是審計部因為我從你們的報告裡面比較少看到有關你這個新住民這些議題那當然可能他是屬於所有民生議題裡面的其中的一部分並沒有特別的拿出來就是來做一個一個審核可是我們覺得說其實其實這很重要"},{"start":24721.661,"end":24738.079,"text":"都很重要尤其現在新住民二代進入到大專院校目前的這個學生有高達9萬人那如果說這些孩子能夠在國家好好的培育之下都是國家未來很重要的助力尤其是新住民"},{"start":24738.379,"end":24753.807,"text":"二代我也希望說在新住民發展基金這部分如果我們真的能夠增加這個預算規模的話那這個部分的話未來對於這孩子的就學也好就業也好我覺得都有很大的這個幫助尤其是獎助學金的補助方面"},{"start":24754.187,"end":24769.354,"text":"所以我今天真的很謝謝我們我們省計長今天一個友善的這個回應那再來呢我們就是在發現這個他們這公共托育的這部分的執行率不是很佳的情況還發現另外一個問題那就是說"},{"start":24772.895,"end":24789.906,"text":"新住民的公共托育呢其實還有一些比較特殊的這個需求我們有很多新住民媽媽其實在語言方面的可能是會比較有問題可以對中文比較不熟悉他們可能需要的這個幼兒的保母可能在語言方面要有些特殊"},{"start":24791.488,"end":24804.823,"text":"我們在盤點我們全國22個縣市呢其實讓我們發現說新住民的公共托育這部分不是那麼的友善這可能也是我們政府需要去來加油督促的這個部分"},{"start":24805.263,"end":24811.349,"text":"新北市是全國新住民人數最多的那可收託一般幼兒的保母人數有2819人"},{"start":24822.398,"end":24851.602,"text":"那當然新住民的小孩也可以送到這個一般的保姆那邊去做托育可是我剛剛有提到就是說新住民媽媽可能在語言方面有所要求他們可能要的就是這個這個保姆也許他必須要有新住民的這個背景合格的這個保姆那比如說我們在新北市來講好了2819位可收托一般幼兒之保姆可是呢可收托新住民幼兒的保姆呢只有4位"},{"start":24852.847,"end":24870.897,"text":"只有四位那台北市也是一樣2317可收託一般幼兒的保姆人數可是呢我們卻只有三位可收託新住民幼兒制保姆所以比例是非常非常的低所以我們說我們在這個托育這部分呢政府呢"},{"start":24871.537,"end":24899.972,"text":"投入了很多的這個經費可是我們在新住民幼兒保姆這個部分我們發現是不太友善的那這個友善這個不友善來自於哪裡可能我們並沒有很積極的去培育新住民去考取合格的保姆執照等等所以衍生出像列都列都可收託新住民幼兒之保姆人數只有個位數那甚至有些縣市像新竹縣苗栗縣南投縣"},{"start":24901.293,"end":24916.602,"text":"雲林、嘉義、台東、花蓮、澎湖、基隆市、嘉義市、連江巷、金門縣是掛零的?如果新住民的媽媽想要找一個合格的保姆懂得自己國家的語言的這些縣市一個都沒有"},{"start":24917.242,"end":24931.142,"text":"一個都沒有所以我想說在托育的環境方面在新住民來講比較不友善所以這部分的話我們也希望審計部這邊來重視跟相關的單位來做一個討論這部分我們怎麼來做提升審計長"},{"start":24933.949,"end":24961.036,"text":"從委員在這些執行的資料裡面看我們好像忽略了新住民的這一塊的一個照顧所以剛剛我有講道歉加強實際上我必須要說如果說完全的忽略說實在良心上我也不能這麼說其實我們有很多對有益於新住民的政策可是某些部分確確實實是忽略了像這托育的部分就是"},{"start":24962.082,"end":24985.212,"text":"所以剛剛委員講我們把那個新住民資金把它加大再來就把這些像這種的因為你夠限時都零星就統一由這些內政部的這些這個單位主責單位來統一把它來做我們是希望幫忙"},{"start":24986.974,"end":24998.248,"text":"把這個委員發現的這些問題我們一塊一塊把它補上就是說有忽略到的地方的一部分把它補上我們會來請內政部相關單位對這個方面加強"},{"start":25003.277,"end":25019.008,"text":"OK很謝謝沈機長那另外還有一個還有時間我還要再提另外一個是跟教育有關的教育部在109年12月7號呢我們訂定發布了新住民就讀大學辦法主要是要讓我們新住民的有更"},{"start":25019.628,"end":25047.427,"text":"有善多元的這個升學的這個管道其實利益是非常良善的可是這個辦法施行到現在已經有三年了這個整個狀況可以說是慘不忍睹這部分可能我之後還是得要跟這個教育部來做一個探討呃沈區長您可以看一下我們這個新住民就讀大學辦法連續兩年的錄取人數是多低呢我們先看111學年度"},{"start":25049.148,"end":25067.438,"text":"111學年度的我們先挑一下學士四年制日間學士班全國所有的大專院校所開出來的招生名額有1900人結果報名的有多少人呢25人入取多少人呢6人註冊人數有3人"},{"start":25070.663,"end":25093.424,"text":"那四年制的進修學士班招生人數招生名額是346人報名人數兩個錄取人數是一個那不管那再來還有碩士班博士班是更不用說了那個成績真的那個招生的人數甚至還掛零那112年呢更慘了112年學士班四年制日間學士班"},{"start":25094.065,"end":25116.916,"text":"招生人數增加到1910人﹐可是報名人數只有3人﹐入取人數3人﹐註冊3人﹐好像諸如此類的﹐像﹐你說政府有沒有做﹐有啊﹐都有做﹐有訂立了這些的這個政策﹐可是執行率真的是非常非常的差﹐到底問題出在哪裡呢﹐其實我們有發現"},{"start":25119.52,"end":25143.292,"text":"我們有發現說有啊你問教育部有啊我們都有公告在大學大學的這個這個網站啊公告全部都有啊可是問題是新住民就不知道說有哪些學校他根本不知道你台灣有哪些學校就算他想要升學想要去進修他也不知道哪些學校有哪些科系所以表示說這些資訊的管道出了問題了"},{"start":25145.472,"end":25160.163,"text":"就是就是教育部他擬定的這些辦法好大學大學各大專院校確確實實有去做了可是這些資訊如何下放到這個基層的新住民好像這個中間的管道就斷掉了"},{"start":25161.547,"end":25189.117,"text":"如果本席沒有在這裡提的話搞不好我們省級長還不了解目前這種狀況謝謝委員提出這個問題這個租姓不對稱或者是造成這個整個族型落差我的想法也是和委員一樣應該就直接看看哪些的新知名的小孩已經要就讀大學了就直接告訴他讓他得到第一手的租姓省級長你誤會了"},{"start":25189.997,"end":25212.549,"text":"我講的是新住民不是新住民是新住民新住民其實台灣的政府很有心想要提升新住民的教育程度或是升學的這個管道所以我們是有比照橋外生外掛2%的方式讓新住民去就學而且是免於考試"},{"start":25213.61,"end":25232.772,"text":"好就是不用學測的情況之下他可以去報報考可是問題是問題是新住民並不知道有這些就學的管道並不知道有這些就學的資訊覺得非常的可惜不管你所有的大學大專院校開了多少的這個科系"},{"start":25233.593,"end":25248.212,"text":"新住民就是不知道那我們像過去一年像上去年我在全國各地辦了十幾將近二十場的這個新住民的座談我每次就說你們知不知道說哪學校有哪些科系你們可以去去就讀嗎"},{"start":25249.493,"end":25261.623,"text":"幾乎是百分之百告訴我說我們不知道我們現在的問題就是說中央做上面做上面中央做中央的可是基層完全感受不到也接受不到這個訊息這才是問題所在"},{"start":25265.906,"end":25290.236,"text":"這才是問題所在所以本期如果說新住民為什麼我說族群的問題審計部可能比較少去碰觸到可能我們都是一些比較大的議題一些民生的議題可是我們發現說新住民的議題也很重要啊來到台灣其實很希望在台灣落地生跟適應台灣的這個生活那包含能夠在這裡順利就學就業可是不管上面做了多少"},{"start":25290.996,"end":25314.011,"text":"可是很多新住民都無感無感來自於哪裡不知道這個資訊是從哪裡來的他們也不知道說原來我可以到大學去念書原來某某大學有這個我所向我想要去念的科系可是這些資訊怎麼要下放給新住民我想這可能就是我們審計部要跟教育部來做一個探討的是咧"},{"start":25315.545,"end":25337.138,"text":"這個部分委員是這樣我們應該解決這個不是太難的問題教育部的各大誰可以把它收集好好謝謝羅委員美玲的質詢謝謝陳審計長的備詢接下來我們請登記第15號張委員志倫質詢"},{"start":25353.208,"end":25357.915,"text":"主席好各位委員各位委員大家好是不是有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長對選"},{"start":25366.966,"end":25395.229,"text":"張委員好沈記長你好在質詢之前我對沈記長還有我們審計部的團隊先給予高度的肯定因為跟沈記長報告本席是在立法院現在唯一一位具有財經就是唯一一位具有會計師身份執照的委員我過去在擔任會計師的業務的時候我也是常去企業做審計的工作所以我非常知道說做審計業務相對的困難跟辛苦"},{"start":25395.689,"end":25415.366,"text":"有時候都要加班加到很晚而且還要寫這麼多的建議報告也是第一個要具備勇氣那第二個也要具備讓民眾知道真相那我所以在這邊資訊之前先給我們省紀長跟我們省紀部所有的官員一個高度的肯定謝謝謝謝委員委員很專業的請多主導"},{"start":25418.001,"end":25438.618,"text":"好那接下來我就要請教有關於沈記長現在我們民生民眾相對相對關注相當大的議題就是4月1號就是昨天我們電價上漲調整幅度11%不管是民生工業全面調漲那以及現在我們很多民眾擔心的點就是現在電價調漲以後"},{"start":25440.399,"end":25466.702,"text":"未來物價會不會全面來調漲那其實我們本席認為企業應該要獲利那不管開源跟節流以一般的企業的經營角度來講面對成本上漲產品售價的調整是因應的做法不過相對於我們國營的企業有台電、中油、台水、台糖等企業當在調漲它的售價的時候應該顧及民生的"},{"start":25467.402,"end":25481.11,"text":"需求跟任務要謹慎的來處理那請教沈機長第一個問題剛剛我提到這些台電、中油、台水、台糖等國營企業就您的認為哪一家的企業虧損的最嚴重"},{"start":25484.587,"end":25504.478,"text":"112年有5家虧損其中台電虧損了1985億元其中有政府還彌補了它500億如果不彌補500億它虧了2485億元沒錯 沈局長非常專業這就是我今天要提的其實台電它的能源政策是否出了問題"},{"start":25506.616,"end":25528.662,"text":"本席跟沈記長報告這家台電它的公司它的毛利率是負百分之三十它的淨利率負到百分之四十它負債比高達九十八趴以一家企業而言它的繼續經營假設我覺得都非常有問題那也跟沈記長報告現在台灣的能源政策"},{"start":25529.582,"end":25551.787,"text":"想不到在台灣現在蔡英文政府說要推展綠電的時候我們的火力發電居然佔超過80%過去政府對台電的補助基本上已經達到了4500億在蔡英文政府執政下台電也連續包含這是4月1號連續調整了三次的電費調整幅度35%"},{"start":25558.351,"end":25576.508,"text":"所以跟沈記長請問請問台電他是不是有繼續經營假設會不會有未來沒有辦法繼續經營的疑慮他是一個國營事業政府會負最後的責任因為我們也不容台電有任何散失或者任何狀況"},{"start":25577.409,"end":25590.887,"text":"所以因為它影響到我們國家很重大所以我們這個部分我們是希望台電能夠強化經營體質加強開業節流慢慢慢慢把它整個體質改善"},{"start":25591.906,"end":25602.859,"text":"好 謝謝沈機長就本席了解因為111年的確當時這個國際燃油價格是有些上漲可是就像我剛剛本席跟您報告的在112年、113年其實國際燃料的價格其實有下跌的趨勢"},{"start":25608.755,"end":25628.105,"text":"那所以我本席希望說在你明年112年的審計報告的時候千萬不要幫台電背書說國際燃油的價格是下跌造成台電的虧損本席大膽建議是不是可以寫因為政府的錯誤的能源政策因為剛剛本席有給你報告80%變成火力發電以及"},{"start":25631.414,"end":25655.684,"text":"我建議我們審計部要請我們政府好好來檢討台電的採購契約是否有些採購綠電的問題是否已經有不合時宜的部分就像我們去年本席一直在跟很多的我們的委員跟民眾在講從過去到現在一直民眾一直有一個想法而且這也是事實就是台電賺寶綠電虧損全民漲電價"},{"start":25661.167,"end":25676.975,"text":"請問我們審計長剛我講的我們明年度本席有給你建議是不是我們在我們審計報告裡面可以加注政府的出入能源政策造成台電虧損以及台電以及政府應該來協助台電檢討它有關於相對的綠電的採購契約"},{"start":25678.737,"end":25705.299,"text":"向委員報告,我們委員當過會計師,我們審計就出去審核意見,是要看看我們的審計發現那當然了,能源這一個,再生能源這一個部分,售價是比那個成本,買的成本是低了,但是他的所有的成本,除了"},{"start":25706.528,"end":25717.684,"text":"合能和水利以外都高於售價,成本都高於售價所以他是如果這樣下去他的經營會比較相當的困難"},{"start":25721.448,"end":25749.684,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長您剛剛有提出的重點就是說無論剛剛本席跟您報告漲電價漲的幅度多少或是政府補助台電的金額4500億這麼高還是沒有辦法抑制台電的虧損所以這是一個相當大的問題所以本席在這邊也希望說未來我們要好好來檢討這個台電尤其剛剛我本席跟你報告綠電的一個問題那最近本席也發現到一件事情也希望沈記長可以一起來協助"},{"start":25751.025,"end":25768.626,"text":"現在聽說私人企業有考慮有直接賣電給一些大型的私人的綠電公司有考慮要直接賣電給一些大型的企業來讓這些大型企業可以買到綠電本席希望可以幫台電或幫政府來開源"},{"start":25769.927,"end":25786.63,"text":"所以本席在這邊建議是不是未來這些私人企業這些私人綠電公司在賣給大企業的時候台電應該要用這個收取電網使用費就是什麼並網費用的概念讓台電的虧損可以來有些的彌補"},{"start":25788.035,"end":25808.512,"text":"沈議長知道這些事情嗎我有看到這樣的一個報導這個是當然你經過台電的電網這個因為電網的整個建設也要相當的成本使用到這裡當然使用者互惠這也一樣的他"},{"start":25810.185,"end":25836.617,"text":"民間能夠賣給大企業民間的發電賣給大企業他就可以少收購這些也是一種解決的方式那政府賣綠電是不是有也可以考慮民間的這種綠電的做法所以我們一直希望台電加強開源節流或者強化經營體制"},{"start":25839.343,"end":25859.551,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長就是需要說明年的審計報告不要看到說就是說審計部寫這個國際燃油價格下跌倒成台電虧損這邊還是要拜託沈記長幫忙以及我在在看這個台電的這個資產負債表的時候我居然看到台電居然有一個非常龐大的資產2800億是當時合適的興建費用那請教我們沈記長這邊對你來講這個合適的2800億"},{"start":25866.494,"end":25886.379,"text":"的資產到底是資產還是負債因為就本席瞭解一個資產這麼龐大2800億可是基本上他的合適的建造已經廢掉了而且他已經沒有辦法再幫台灣產生出更多的電力基本未來還需要非常龐大的金額來去做後續廚藝的動作"},{"start":25887.739,"end":25896.347,"text":"那現在帳列2800億的資產是否有是否應該來去做一個價值的減損的部分的討論以及這樣價值減損的部分會不會造成台電未來虧損更嚴重那當時現在為什麼不做台電核市場這個資產減損的原因為何這個我們"},{"start":25909.003,"end":25931.6,"text":"我們也有提出這樣的一個和委員剛所講的提出這樣的審計意見經濟部給我們的答覆是他們還在做整個合適租產的一個怎麼樣再應用的一個評估等評估定案了以後我們會做要求他依照公認的會計原理原則來做相關的評價"},{"start":25932.95,"end":25949.971,"text":"好 謝謝沈記長本席這邊要提醒沈記長根據蔡英文政府講的2025非核家園照理蔡英文政府的講法應該明年這些兩千多億的資產就應該歸零所以這點我是要跟您報告的那當時我也跟沈記長報告"},{"start":25951.87,"end":25978.544,"text":"經濟部這邊有說有一個資產管理維護計畫其實從106年就已經跟審計部這邊報告說他要來評估已經評估了8年都沒有結論所以我本席在這邊也要大膽這個建議審計長已經拖了8年了已經夠久了那以審計部你沒有權利把這個事情交給監察院來去做一個審議是否這樣子"},{"start":25981.886,"end":25987.072,"text":"讓台灣人民會有個錯誤的想法說其實台電有2800億這麼大的資產其實這個資產是一點價值都沒有的所以這邊要拜託沈記長來幫忙我們可以來評估考慮好 謝謝"},{"start":25997.435,"end":26021.225,"text":"好這邊就是我簡單對台電的部分這個是真的要拜託沈記長來協助因為不然台電的這個負債以及當官資產的減損如果不讓國人知道他真正的情況未來等到一次直接認列的時候會造成台電及國家重大的負擔第二個我想要請教沈記長的就是國人他所注重的就是我們國家負債的問題"},{"start":26022.425,"end":26050.597,"text":"請教沈記長就您的看法現在我們全台灣整體中央的負債是不是接近五兆已經到五兆我們111年度的結算出來是五兆六千將近五兆六千九百多億謝謝那今年已經到了五兆多以台灣兩千三百萬人來算每一個人的平均負債大概是二十五萬左右"},{"start":26051.357,"end":26079.291,"text":"那這邊要跟這個省紀長報告現在我們國人也是最近我們立法院正在討論的就是有關於特別預算的問題那我覺得省紀部在這邊表現得非常的勇敢因為省紀部在他的這個決算報告說也有寫說107年、108年及111年我們的政府的稅出稅入是為騰餘的其他年度皆為短促顧名思義就是說"},{"start":26080.663,"end":26099.349,"text":"政府的錢都不夠用,尤其112年的儲蓄高達6190億,主要就是因為政府常年制定以特別條例方式編列特別預算,稅出規模龐大以及沒有籌措稅入裁員以及多仰賴債務之應。"},{"start":26101.923,"end":26128.862,"text":"所以沈議長這邊你表現我認為你本就是本席認為你你要把這個問題給講出來就是蔡英文政府在執政這8年運用了非常多特別預算而且這個特別預算他是可以規避我們一般來認列台灣的政府的債務上限那本席這邊有一個資料蔡英文政府在編了特別預算的時候到底讓台灣社會增加多少負債"},{"start":26134.832,"end":26157.927,"text":"能講這本資料嗎我收到的資料好像兩張如果到110因為我們是這樣那個剛剛講是五兆六千九百七十七億減掉當時他接任105年接任的時候是實際債務是五千三百多在111年是增加了四千兩百億可是跟省紀長報告我這邊收到的資料好像比這個數字高很多"},{"start":26159.017,"end":26185.854,"text":"所以會後沒關係我再跟審計長請教一下我講的是我們現在的實際債務已有所以意思就是說他有特別預算的部分有去做償還的部分他都會滾進這個實際他如果去集借會滾進這個實際債務已有裡面好那接下來還是國人比較擔心的就是說政府的負債部分因為你在審計報告中有特別提出其實政府有一些是"},{"start":26188.151,"end":26206.384,"text":"沒有略在我們的國家的負債當中就是屬於所謂俗稱的叫做潛在負債裡面的金額高達20億主要包含的金額就是勞保基金15億的負債以及我們的軍公教人員的退休金的負債裡面的金額就是高達了將近要20億那以"},{"start":26208.405,"end":26237.845,"text":"就本席來算我們全台灣國人2300萬人算起來每一個人的負債會再增加75萬所以負債可能每個人平均會增加到100萬我覺得這是全台灣人民想要去了解的那當然本席知道說這依照國際的一些編制準則這是不需要列在我們一般的政府預算裡面那可是我看審計長那麼認真每年在審計報告中重複的去提到"},{"start":26240.746,"end":26253.953,"text":"這些潛藏負債的問題尤其這個勞保基金他的負債將近達13到15兆那這個部分我請教沈記長你有什麼方法來解決嗎"},{"start":26256.904,"end":26270.709,"text":"這個謝謝委員我們會提出來因為透明是很重要在我們的損濟的一個立場是很重要所以我們會把它提出來那勞保的這一個塊因為我們也希望能夠"},{"start":26308.552,"end":26308.572,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":26320.242,"end":26337.07,"text":"謝謝張委員致輪的質詢也謝謝陳審計長的備詢報告院會中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案之諮詢均已詢答完畢做以下之決定"},{"start":26338.251,"end":26353.445,"text":"一、中華民國111年度中央政府總預算計附屬單位決算及中計表審核報告。二、中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第三期特別決算審核報告。"},{"start":26355.168,"end":26372.353,"text":"中華民國110年度至111年度及中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30日等案交財政委員會會同有關委員審查"},{"start":26386.205,"end":26407.216,"text":"將各委員發言記錄及書面諮詢函送審計部,請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。三,已提出之書面諮詢尚未登載公報者,一律補刊。繼續處理復議案,請議事人員宣讀議案。"},{"start":26410.609,"end":26432.258,"text":"本院委員黃建豪等22人針對第一會期第6次會議報告事項第1、8、2案提出附議請公決案宣讀完畢本案作以下決定令定期處理請議事人員宣讀第二案本院民進黨黨團針對第11屆第一會期第6次會議議事日程報告事項第103案"},{"start":26437.065,"end":26451.05,"text":"及第108案院會所作決定提出覆議請供決案宣讀完畢本案作以下決定令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}