{"total":{"value":53,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-04-11"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"151070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b5f49928860b5569de63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a63e43393a2f85716b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:06:22 - 09:08:53","影片長度":"00:02:31","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":151,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:08:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:06:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.9715937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.58596875,"end":50.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.75721875,"end":147.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.94846875000002,"end":151.11284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.09,"end":1.76,"text":"中英委員組提案說明"},{"start":8.447,"end":32.888,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第"},{"start":36.391,"end":40.734,"text":"條之一及第三十八條之一修正草案,以加強我國國籍漁船以及對出口業者的管理,並展現我國對於打擊非法的漁撈者決心。」"},{"start":59.347,"end":84.705,"text":"那麼也敬請各位同仁以及行政部門來支持我們特別在第十四條之一以及第三十八條之一做的新增或修訂的部分特別說明在第三十八條之一也就是最近一年內違反了前項規定兩次以上者那麼處新台幣八百萬元以上四千萬元以下的華元"},{"start":85.345,"end":86.445,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分"},{"start":107.574,"end":128.261,"text":"或者是不受規範漁撈作業的漁貨物或者是漁產品之流通,所以我們明定了該等貨物不得進口,不得進口,那這個目的也就是要配合國際以及貿易相關國家共同合作打擊非法,為報告或不受規範漁撈作業"},{"start":129.861,"end":147.51,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"}]}},{"id":"151069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b1114f23b7b7f2827e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a66ceca625b7c3693f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:03:55 - 09:06:20","影片長度":"00:02:25","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":145,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:03:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.864093750000002,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.63909375,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.27159375,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.33471875,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.405968750000003,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.61659375,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.31221875,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.58596875,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.049718750000004,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.315343750000004,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.12096875,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.27659375,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.820343750000006,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.55846875,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.76471875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.27909375,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.56159375,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.36284375,"end":64.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.05034375000001,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.95721875000001,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.01596875,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.85971875,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.15034375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.05721875,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.86284375000001,"end":77.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":80.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.69721875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.84034375,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.94096875000001,"end":90.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.85159375,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.17596875000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.55534375,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.34409375000001,"end":103.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.13284375,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.95909375000001,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.90409375,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.13159375000001,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.35471875,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.67096875000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.58971875,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.96909375000001,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.63971875000001,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.29346875000002,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.16221875000002,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.95534375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.17409375,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.60346875000002,"end":144.97034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.224,"end":1.287,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11.016,"end":29.432,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好感謝召委安排今天的法案審查本席提出遠洋漁業條例部分條例修正草案主要是建於2022年美國國家海洋暨大氣總署發布國際漁業管理改善的報告"},{"start":30.433,"end":52.85,"text":"台灣首次在非法漁業及混獲海歸的不明預防當上榜我國遠洋漁業條例需要進一步修法台灣自從2015年遭受歐盟列入打擊非法未報告及不受規範的漁業不合作國家警告名單後政府積極修訂漁業三法然而過了七個月"},{"start":53.61,"end":71.219,"text":"歐盟執委會派員來臺訪視,仍然認定臺灣執法鬆散,強度密度皆下降。此外,包括綠色和平組織、英國環境正義基金會都曾針對臺灣非法捕魚、人口販運及強迫漁工勞動等問題,發布調查報告。"},{"start":75.237,"end":90.033,"text":"並且在2020年在美國發表同工及強迫勞動製品清單台灣遠洋漁獲也被列入導致美國買家反彈政府必須加速改善因此本席提出遠洋漁業"},{"start":92.055,"end":107.661,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 本席提案方向與行政院版本相同,包括增訂十四條之一及三十九條之一,規定涉及非法,未報告或不受規範漁撈作業之漁貨物或漁產品不得進口。"},{"start":112.202,"end":139.251,"text":"以及因應國際條約等需求主管機關得公告限制特定國家之全部或部分漁貨或漁產品不得進口並增訂相關法則等。另外配合農委會改制為農業部修正第三條主管機關名稱以及第47條增訂修正條文及實施日期。懇請各位委員支持。謝謝大家。謝謝。"},{"start":144.006,"end":144.934,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b09dfe8fcd23fa83e039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a60f4beab1f5dffbc25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:52:43 - 10:01:20","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":517,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:01:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:52:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時52分）謝謝主席，有請副主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：副主委早安。我們看到太空中心的貼文，你有看到嘛？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，福衛五號。"],["陳委員培瑜：上個禮拜在花蓮地震後的隔天，太空中心馬上釋出了非常多衛星照片，讓很多國人同胞……因為網路上其實流傳非常多照片，造成大家的恐慌，但是因為這個照片適時的釋出，我覺得也讓大家的心情稍微安撫、平靜許多，所以這邊我必須要先說，代表國人感謝太空中心的努力，也希望後續像這樣子的協助，會持續提供給相關國人。","進一步我們發現，其實你們有所謂的守望亞洲計畫，過去這幾年，我們從2010年加入守望亞洲計畫之後，臺灣陸續跟來自日本、泰國、新加坡及中國的資料畫面，其實也在這一次地震上給予很多的幫助，這邊可不可以請副主委簡要說明一下，透過太空中心的這個計畫來表達我們臺灣國會對這個議題的關心跟感謝，可不可以給您30秒說明一下？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想具體內容我可以講，但最重要是我們一定要加入其他國際的聯盟，才有辦法有足夠的資訊，單看我們國家的衛星其實是不夠，所以這個事實上是在太空衛星跟資料分享的部分是很重要的，不僅是一個科技外交，也是在實質上對於臺灣的應用非常重要，具體在這一次其實等於是很直接提供了我們，不只是這一次，我想其他的部分，我們也都有利用其他國家的衛星。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，加入國際組織非常重要，就如同您說的，其實從2010到2022年，我們看到太空中心透過國科會這邊積極推動科技外交，跟重要的科技強國還有簽署部會層級科研合作的協定跟協議，那我們看到2010到2022，平均每一年我們臺灣自己的支援，光是臺灣送出去的資料，平均有14件災害事件提供嘛！過去一整年我們臺灣自己就協助了13個國家、22場災害，我們都知道其實這樣的天災都沒有人希望發生，可是一旦發生，基於人道價值的關懷，彼此互相提供資料、互相協助，這個非常非常重要，所以後續我們是不是可以要求國科會跟太空中心持續在這個計畫當中發揮角色？我相信立法院一定也會支持相關的預算。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，我們會持續努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。說完了太空，我們來看一下海洋，這次地震大家都知道是921之後最大規模地震，可是因為它的震央在近海，所以對於整個地質環境的掌握，其實沒有辦法像25年前的921一樣，可以從地面上有非常非常多的資料跟觀察。在今年年初，日本的能登半島地震，不知道副主委你知不知道這個新聞跟消息？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：有，我有看到……"],["陳委員培瑜：其實我們臺灣自己也有提供衛星畫面給日本，跟副主委這邊說明一下，日本在上個月就派遣了他們自己海洋研究機構的研究船進行相關的斷層探勘，瞭解地震的成因還有地質的細節，然後再進一步地把這個資料提供給調查委員會做參考。為什麼要講這件事情呢？因為我剛剛說臺灣這一次地震震央是在臺灣的近海，其實國科會的國家實驗研究院，目前我們知道有國家地震工程中心還有臺灣海洋研究中心。我想請問一下，我們有沒有機會在這次地震，透過派研究船進行地震探勘調查的計畫？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想主要如果是能夠布局在海底的地震偵測器，這是非常重要，目前我們這些相當有限，我們承認，所以我想委員的這個建議非常重要，如果說我們能夠把兩邊聯合在一起，因為海洋研究中心跟地震部分能夠合作，然後我們透過海洋科技的能量，才能夠把地震儀整個佈到，這整個重要的關鍵的部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：但是因為整個東岸深海，所以這個部分也有技術上的困難，但我們會積極來思考這方面的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果是這樣，聽到副主委這麼正向的回應，其實我們有聽到來自地科學界學者的建議，有沒有機會在這一次啟動相關的研究跟調查經費？我們是不是可以抓半年的時間，請你們這邊做出相關的盤點，然後來討論一下這個資源如何整合，然後如何真的開始進行相關研究報告？因為我們知道這個地震的樣態跟斷層帶的樣貌非常非常不一樣，如果我們有更多研究資料，我相信會讓臺灣產業發展跟國人日常生活，應該都會更加安心，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，我希望能夠……"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有機會在半年內啟動相關的研究？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：半年內不能，因為半年內我不見得在，但是一個月內我們會啟動第一次的諮詢會議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題，一個月內啟動相關諮詢專家會議。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們要把這個問題至少有一個framework，至少一個架構，應該一個月……因為我還在，還可以去做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：會把這個東西傳遞下去。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了，謝謝，這個非常重要，謝謝副主委的肯定。","我們接下來再回到太空來看一下，在今天的報告裡面，我們看到國科會有提到八大前瞻科技，其中太空是一個非常重要你們提到的領域，可是我們有發現在去年7月的時候，國科會主委就有說太空三期計畫要修正、要延長，並且預計在去年年底送件，可是我們到目前為止都沒有看到相關的資料跟下文。我們來看一下你們當時提出來的修正，計畫重點我就不再贅述了，可是你們提到一個非常重要的事情──通訊韌性的部分，我覺得這一次在地震當中，大家應該更可以感受通訊韌性的重要性。我們想知道，聽說計畫已經是送到國科會，然後等著要送到行政院，目前我們知道版本是這樣，是嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：按照每年的科技計畫的審議，目前是這樣，現在單一計畫本身應該就要送進來了，我們還在審議的過程，現在還在國科會。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們來看一下，我們跟你們要資料，結果你們給我們的回應是說：儘速完備修正內容。所以到底是遇到了什麼困難，要不要在這邊說明一下，讓關心相關進度的委員們更知道，目前的修正計畫是到哪裡了？"],["陳處長國樑：跟委員報告，目前來講的話，因為它有相關的一些細節的內容，像項目等等這些還需要討論，所以內部還在研議當中，但是會儘速再提供。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果按照剛剛副主委您說的，未來520之後你也不知道你在不在嘛！但是你剛剛提到一個月內，我們在這個修正案的部分，有沒有機會在一個月內完成國科會的內部程序，然後在520以前提供給行政院作為後續審查，讓接下來的行政團隊可以無縫接軌，有機會嗎？一個月內。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：有關於我們內部的調整，我先確定看看可不可以在一個月內調整……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是……"],["陳處長國樑：因為這個除了國科會以外，還涉及到相關的部會，我們還要跨部會地研商，大家齊備之後才會送到行政院來做核定。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以您覺得大概還要多久？因為我想也不會只有我們辦公室關心這個進度嘛。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我親自開會，一個月內我們開，看能夠推到怎麼樣，我們必須要瞭解，因為它其實還牽扯到各個部會，太空計畫絕對不是國科會的問題而已。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是因為您說你會主責來召開……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：所以我想我們一個月內開一個比較密集的會議去瞭解大概現在還有哪些技術上的項目是卡住的，但原來這個大方向應該大家都很有共識了，這個部分應該是比較沒有問題的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分就拜託你們持續進行。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：細節的部分我們是不是就麻煩一下……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們承認它確實有跨部會的困難，但是我們還是希望看到進度是趕快往前推進的，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：跨部會沒有困難，但需要一點時間。"],["陳委員培瑜：需要一些時間？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以跨部會的溝通目前沒有困難，但是……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：沒有困難。"],["陳委員培瑜：大家在工作細項的討論分工上是有困難的？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，他也需要帶回去做各個部會本身的討論，我想這個部分我們再來追蹤……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果有這麼多實際的困難，但是您說你一個月內會先召開相關的會議，然後來看一下大家目前的進度？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，我們來召開，盤點一下看看到底有哪些問題，然後我們把它列出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們辦公室會再跟你們要相關資料跟報告。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：OK，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝副主委，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。再來請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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的心情稍微安撫平靜"},{"start":41.596,"end":42.456,"text":"其實也在這一次地震上給予很多的幫助"},{"start":71.203,"end":88.479,"text":"副主委請解釋一下,透過太空中心的計畫﹐木來表達我們台灣國會﹐對這個議題的關心跟感謝﹐可不可以給您30秒說明一下我想具體的內容我可以講﹐但最重要的是說﹐我們一定要加入其他國際聯盟﹐你才有辦法有足夠的資訊"},{"start":89.82,"end":107.852,"text":"當看我們國家的衛星其實是不夠所以這個事實上是在太空的衛星的部分跟資料的分享部分是一個很重要的那這個不僅是一個科技外交也是在實質上對於台灣的應用非常重要那具體在這一次其實是等於是很直接提供了我們不只是這一次我想其他的部分我們也都有利用其他的"},{"start":108.012,"end":134.214,"text":"我們來看一下下一張沒錯這個加入國際組織非常重要就如同您說的其實從2010到2022年我們看到太空中心透過國科會這邊積極推動科技外交跟重要的科技強國還有簽署部會層級科研合作協定跟協議那我們看到2010到2022平均每一年我們台灣台灣自己的資源光光是台灣送出去的資料平均有14件災害事件提供那我們來看下一頁"},{"start":135.014,"end":157.684,"text":"台灣過去一整年我們台灣自己就協助了13個國家22場災害那我們都知道其實這樣的天災都沒有人希望發生可是一旦發生基於人道價值的關懷彼此互相提供資料互相協助這非常非常重要所以後續這邊我們是不是可以持續要求國科會跟太空中心這邊持續在這個計畫當中發揮角色那我相信立法院一定也會支持相關的預算"},{"start":160.706,"end":183.826,"text":"說完了太空我們來看一下海洋這一次地震大家都知道是921之後最大規模地震可是因為它的震央在近海所以對於整個地質環境的掌握其實沒有辦法像25年前的921一樣可以從地面上有非常非常多資料跟觀察我在今年年初日本的能登半島地震不知道副主委你知不知道這個新聞跟消息"},{"start":188.054,"end":198.859,"text":"其實我們台灣自己也有提供衛星畫面給日本跟副主委這邊說明一下那日本在上個月就派遣了他們自己的海洋研究機構的研究船進行相關的斷層探勘瞭解地震的成因還有地質的細節然後再進一步的把這個資料提供給調查委員會做參考為什麼要講這件事情呢我們來看下一張因為我剛剛說台灣這一次的地震震壓是在台灣的近海"},{"start":214.065,"end":227.933,"text":"那其實國科會的國家實驗研究院目前我們知道有國家地震工程中心還有台灣海洋研究中心那我想請問一下我們有沒有機會在這一次的地震透過派研究船進行地震探勘調查的計畫"},{"start":230.081,"end":256.622,"text":"我想主要的如果是能夠在布局在海底的地震偵測其實這是非常重要那目前我們這些相當有限我們承認所以我想委員這個建議非常重要如果說我們能夠把兩邊聯合在一起因為海洋研究中心跟地震部分能夠再合作然後我們透過海洋科技的這個能量才能夠把地震以整個步道這整個重要的關鍵的部分但是因為整個東岸深海"},{"start":257.402,"end":264.665,"text":"所以這個部分也有技術上的困難但我們會積極來思考這方面的問題那如果是這樣聽到副主委這麼正向的回應其實我們有聽到來自地科學界的學者的建議有沒有機會在這一次啟動這個相關的研究跟調查經費那我們是不是可以抓一個半年的時間請你們這邊做出相關的盤點然後來討論一下這個資源如何整合然後如何真的進行開始相關研究報告"},{"start":283.752,"end":283.792,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":302.606,"end":302.846,"text":"接下來回到太空來看一下"},{"start":322.122,"end":343.602,"text":"在今夜報告裡面我們看到國科會有提到八大前瞻科技其中太空是一個非常重要你們提到的領域可是我們有發現在去年7月的時候國科會主委就有說太空三期計畫要修正要延長並且預計在去年年底送件可是我們到目前為止都沒有看到相關的資料跟下文好下一張"},{"start":344.182,"end":366.425,"text":"我們來看一下你們當時提出來的修正計畫重點我就不再贅述了可是你們提到一個非常重要的事情通訊韌性的部分那我覺得這一次在地震當中大家應該更可以感受通訊韌性的重要性那目前我們想知道聽說計畫已經是從國科會送已經是送到國科會然後等著要送到行政院目前我們知道版本是這樣是嗎"},{"start":368.155,"end":391.932,"text":"目前按照每年的科技計畫的審議目前是這樣那現在單一計畫本身應該是五六就應該要送進來的我們還在審議的過程我們跟你們要資料結果你們給我們的回應是說競速完備修正內容所以到底是遇到了什麼困難要不要在這邊說明一下讓大家更知道關心相關進度的委員們目前的修正計畫是到哪裡了"},{"start":392.873,"end":408.602,"text":"具體修正目前進度跟委員報告目前來講話因為他有相關的一些細節的內容像項目等等這些還需要討論所以還在這個內部的還在研議當中但是會儘速的提供"},{"start":409.022,"end":433.512,"text":"那如果按照剛剛副主委您說的未來520之後你也不知道你在不在嘛但是你剛剛說提到一個月內那有沒有機會在這個修正案的部分有沒有機會在一個月內完成國科會的內部程序然後在520以前提供給行政院作為後續審查讓接下來行政團隊可以無縫接軌有機會嗎?一個月內我們內部的調整我先確定他可不可以一個月內調整"},{"start":434.534,"end":437.715,"text":"所以您覺得大概還要多久?因為我想也不會只有我們辦公室關心這個進度嗎?"},{"start":457.331,"end":482.185,"text":"我親自開會一個月內我們開看能夠推到怎麼樣因為我們必須要了解因為其他課還有牽扯到各個部會開放計劃絕對不是國科會的問題而已所以我們想我們一個月開一個比較密集的會議去了解大概現在還有哪些技術上的項目是卡住但原則這個大方向應該大家都很有共識的這個部分應該是比較沒有問題的那這個部分就拜託你們持續進行但細節的部分我們時時就麻煩一下"},{"start":482.745,"end":486.728,"text":"我們承認他確實有跨部會的困難但是我們還是希望看到進度是趕快往前推進的跨部會沒有困難但需要一點時間所以跨部會的溝通目前沒有困難但是大家在工作細項的討論分工上是有困難的他還需要帶回去做各個部會本身的討論如果有這麼多實際的困難但是您說你一個月內會先召開相關的會議然後來看一下大家目前進度到底哪些盤點一下到底哪些問題然後我們把它列出來"},{"start":508.385,"end":508.505,"text":"陳培瑜委員"}]}},{"id":"151067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bae113568a99eb8af039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6335c7f683d568c255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:42:30 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109年到112年，現在已經到期了，請問4年來總預算為多少？有哪幾個醫學中心和ICT的廠商媒合組成9個整合型的跨域成熟團隊？是否達到預期目標？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，細節我們請處長說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，請說。"],["楊處長台鴻：目前的目標其實是達成地非常好的，因為基本上醫學中心跟ICT廠商都合作得非常好，而且事實上我們在未來4年的期程還有1個新的計畫，目前正在call案當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那4年來總預算有多少？"],["楊處長台鴻：過去的4年是嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["楊處長台鴻：可能有四億多，因為我……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，你可以稍微提出有幾個醫學中心和ICT廠商媒合嗎？"],["楊處長台鴻：幾個醫學中心是不是？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["許處長增如：報告委員，我們有2支計畫，1支是生科處，它是跨醫院合作的驗證；產學處有個智慧醫療產學聯盟，因為我們大概是從111年開始執行的，比方像臺大跟廣達。另外還有中國醫跟長佳智能，他們共同發展一些產品的驗證，希望往海外市場拓展，能夠在海外落地。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，另外，我想請問你，健康大數據永續平台計畫建置國家級的友善醫療，以生醫資料來做一個平台，建置轉譯導向的生醫巨量資料、應用生醫資料庫開發新穎生物標記及疾病風險評估模式。本席想請問，健康大數據的永續平台計畫，計畫期程也是110年到113年，即將到期，請問4年來的總預算為多少？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該是差不多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：差不多嗎？已經完成四分之三的計畫，是否可以達到預期目標？"],["楊處長台鴻：這支計畫可能比較多，大概有8億左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：8億左右，那不是差不多，是double耶！"],["楊處長台鴻：有稍微多一點。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，4億變8億也不是差不多或多一點啦！沒關係。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：剛剛那個4億如果包含產學處的話，事實上scale有稍微大一點。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，目前已經完成四分之三的計畫，請問一下有沒有達到預期目標？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想具體的成果，請處長稍微說明一下。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，您說什麼？"],["楊處長台鴻：這個計畫分成兩塊，一個是大數據，收資料，我們預計4年會收8,000筆實際的資料。我們按步驟，每年大概2,000、2,000、2,000，完全按照步驟。另外有一個是生物標記，剛剛委員講的生物標記，我們英文叫biomarker。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["楊處長台鴻：目前這支計畫基本上來講進度是超前的，有很多的biomarker事實上都已經快要可以落地了，以上，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，再來是防疫科學研究發展及量能的一個建置計畫，這項計畫的期程是從哪一年開始，哪一年結束？"],["楊處長台鴻：防疫這支計畫很明顯是從疫情那年開始的，應該是到明年結束。"],["羅委員廷瑋：明年結束？"],["楊處長台鴻：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，總預算為多少？"],["楊處長台鴻：這個預算應該差不多6億左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那內文既然說國科會長期耕耘新興感染症的研究，奠定防疫基礎，自109年嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎（COVID-19）疫情爆發，支援國內防疫重要議題，在檢疫、治療、預防、公衛流病、社會影響、場域驗證與國際合作等面向進行全方位的研究，簡單地說，萬一下一次來一個類似COVID-19的疫情，國科會能夠提供什麼給相關部門來進行有效的全面防衛？"],["楊處長台鴻：基本上，這個任務跟衛福部理論上應該是有部分會重疊，國科會的角度就是從科學研發，我們希望用科學的方法解決下一個疫情來所要面臨的問題，所以事實上我們跟很多醫院都有在做這方面的一個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以這個計畫你目前所籌備的相關資料，有信心在下一次如果遇到COVID-19的時候，是可以有效地提供更好的數據嗎？"],["楊處長台鴻：如果委員說下次還是COVID-19，我可以給你保證一定沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：類似，但是是新興的病毒。"],["楊處長台鴻：新興感染症的種類如果真的是很多的話……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，千變萬化，但是因為之前COVID-19的一個防範機制，我想這些都是演變出我們需要的一些科學數據，或者是我們的經驗，下一次病毒演變的時候，可以作為最好的防範前提嘛！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：跟委員報告，其實這次COVID-19很多研究的能量基礎，也跟上次SARS所累積出來的肺部非典型部分的感染，事實上有很大的基礎研究能量，所以我們不能臨時找人，就是事實上它已經有這個連續，這是目前COVID-19得了研究成果，我們也希望長期能夠作為未來如果有新興的疾病，本身也能夠幫忙支持，這是我們目前國科會的規劃。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，當然我們希望這些疫情的亂象不要再度地發生，但是我們希望國科會因為有這些經驗，可以給我們很大的參考。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後我想講就是太空中心，因為立法院已經三讀太空發展法，我想國際強權也作為太空的先行者，主宰了大部分的市場跟組織，臺灣現在才要起步，我們很擔心會越來越萎縮的情況之下，那在這樣子的情況，我們當然還是不能嫌晚嘛！有做就是好事，2023年太空中心成立，國人對它的盼望也很高，請問火箭發射場的進度為何？選址在哪？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：具體進度請我們……"],["陳處長國樑：跟委員報告，火箭發射場目前第一次委員會已經開過了，它分三個階段，第一個階段是要瞭解訂定發射場址的條件；第二個，跟各相關的地方單位談之後，確定所謂的候選場址；第三階段才會決定場址。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，時間有限，沒辦法論述太久，但是我想韓、日、中國大陸、印度都有自己的發射場，也有成功，臺灣什麼時候可以在自己的國家發射火箭上太空？這是我們的期許，我想到現在只有在討論條件，還沒有實際的選址，我們希望加快速度，這方面可以努力嗎？比如說你的第二次會議可不可以快一點？"],["余副主任憲政：我們會針對選址的部分儘快做處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：每分每秒都在流逝，都在跟國際競爭，我們希望這速度可以快一點，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，我們加快速度。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","我們再來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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1,"text":"4億變8億也不是差不多或多一點沒關係其實剛剛那個4億其實是有包含如果包含產期數的話事實上scale稍微大一點好那已經完成3的一個計畫請問一下有沒有達到預期目標"},{"start":331.536,"end":331.676,"text":"主席"},{"start":362.376,"end":362.557,"text":"綜藝範圍多少?"},{"start":383.159,"end":398.577,"text":"這個預算應該差不多6億左右吧好那內文竟然說國科會長期耕耘新興感染的一個研究證一個研發研究電定防疫基礎自109年的嚴重特殊傳染COVID-19疫情爆發支援國內"},{"start":399.958,"end":419.912,"text":"防疫的一個重要議題簡易治療預防公衛的流病以及社會影響場域的一個驗證國際合作我想做全方面的一個研究簡單的說萬一下一次來一個類似的COVID-19的一個疫情國科會能夠提供什麼給相關部門來進行有效的全面防衛"},{"start":421.874,"end":447.361,"text":"基本上這個任務跟衛福部是有部分應該理論上會重疊國科會的角度就是從科學研發我們希望用科學的方法來解決下一個疫情所要面臨的問題所以事實上我們跟很多醫院都有在做這方面的一個所以這個計畫你目前所籌備的相關資料有信心在下一次如果遇到COVID-19的時候是可以有效的提供"},{"start":449.195,"end":471.917,"text":"如果我是說下次還是COVID-19我可以跟你保證一定沒問題類似但是是新型的病毒新型感染症的種類如果真的是很多的話我知道千變萬化但是我們因為之前這一次的COVID-19的一個防範機制我想這些都是演變出我們需要的一些科學數據或者是我們的經驗來做下一次的病毒演變的時候可以作為最好的防範潛艇"},{"start":473.258,"end":500.236,"text":"跟委員報告其實這次COVID-19的很多研究的能量基礎也跟上次SARS所累積出來的這個肺部的這個這個這個事實上非典型的這個部分的感染事實上有很大的這個研究基礎研究能量所以我們不能臨時找人就是事實上它已經有這個連續讓我們未來其實在目前這次COVID-19得了研究成果我們也希望長期的能夠作為未來若有新興的疾病本身也能夠也能夠能夠幫忙支持這樣子"},{"start":500.836,"end":525.939,"text":"好當然我們希望這些疫情的亂象不要再度的發生但是我們希望國科會因為有這些經驗可以給我們很大的一個參考是謝謝好那最後我想講就是太空中心我想太空中心我們因為立法院已經三讀太空發展法我想國際強權也作為太空的先行者主宰了大部分的一個市場跟組織台灣現在才要起步我們很擔心會越來越萎縮的一個情況之下"},{"start":527.04,"end":543.194,"text":"在這樣子一個情況我們當然還是不能嫌晚有做就是好事那2023年的太空中心成立國連對他的盼望也很高請問火箭發射場的進度為何選址在哪我們具體進度請我們那個你這邊直接講"},{"start":546.193,"end":564.006,"text":"跟委員報告那火箭發射場目前已經第一次的委員會開過了他分三個階段第一個階段是要瞭解那訂定發射場址的條件第二個才會跟這個各相關的這個地方單位談之後呢"},{"start":564.766,"end":593.022,"text":"然後才確定所謂的候選長址第三階段才會決定長址我想時間有限沒辦法論述太久但是我想韓日中國大陸印度都有自己的發射廠也有成功台灣什麼時候可以在自己的國家發射火箭上太空這是我們的期許我想到現在只有在討論條件還沒有實際的一個選址我們希望加快速度這方面可以努力嗎比如說你的第一次會議第二次會議可不可以快一點"},{"start":593.916,"end":594.136,"text":"謝謝羅廷瑋委員"}]}},{"id":"151066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bef2e23d1d698852c039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6ee0bf62688cb93ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:34:01 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這個我們的緊急應變機制請你們務必要去讓它每一次的演練每一次甚至災後我們實際上面的運作都應該理當可以讓我們的下一次可以做得更好那也請國會我們要繼續來投入因為這一次我們看到之所以我們可以半導體不停工然後供電"},{"start":250.097,"end":254.682,"text":"主要就是在於這些年來台灣的供電的穩定性除了我們剛剛講到的電網以外包括我們投資綠能包括我們投資儲能這些相關的研究我們國科會都有來投入支持這部分我們也希望我們要繼續來加強好不好"},{"start":269.199,"end":271.66,"text":"政府部會每位首長、公務同仁都不能置身於社會室外,最近全國國人非常關心的就是數位性暴力"},{"start":287.951,"end":287.971,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":303.773,"end":330.003,"text":"現在立法院也在討論兒少性剝削條例的修法那我自己也會提出版本但是我就在看因為我們國科會的研究事項裡面其實也包括了性品研究20年前我們國科會曾經支持過兒少性剝削條例的相關研究但是這性影像的散佈最害怕就是它一傳十 十傳百尤其現在是一個全球的網絡甚至影像是傳到境外的"},{"start":330.743,"end":358.227,"text":"所以台灣有法人我們台灣網路資訊中心其實有進行一個研究案來做全球下架的研究其中也涉及到了運用我們的AI他用一部影片可以去找到其他這部影片還出現在哪些的網站就能夠去協助後續的執法來下架所以這個部分用科技來阻斷性影像的散播我們國科會可不可以來支持相關的研究"},{"start":358.687,"end":379.366,"text":"我們已經積極在規劃那因為尤其是數位這件事情是讓很多現在的這個相關的議題會變得更嚴重更快速傷害會更多所以我們事實上會等於是召集跨領域的你希望也有數位的專家不只是原來的這個關於這個兒少研究的專家我們會組成一個比較跨領域的團隊"},{"start":380.106,"end":382.888,"text":"今天我們的火箭阿伯吳主任也沒有來有副主任代表吳主任現在仍在美國去參加美國太空博覽會"},{"start":408.604,"end":423.232,"text":"美國太空博覽會是去年首次獲邀 去年是新聞報載說去年中國沒有出席 現在你們太空中心正在美國參加太空博覽會 今年中國有沒有出席"},{"start":424.276,"end":437.575,"text":"今年這個部分也沒有嗎?沒有看到中國的官方代表今年中國也沒有受邀出席那其實我們更加關心的是我們到美國參加這個博覽會合作了交流了哪些議題這會後希望可以提供資料給我們好沒問題"},{"start":439.377,"end":443.94,"text":"最後是在花蓮的救災裡面我們看到了太空中心福衛五號的應用我們緊急更改排程提供災前後影像的比對這是一個對國人來講是非常大的一個消息我看我們國人也湧入你們的粉絲頁來感謝你們當然國人也關心的是我們還有福衛八號的計畫目前預計的時程是如何"},{"start":467.038,"end":481.682,"text":"福威報告目前的第一顆衛星預計在114年底的時候會有發射的機會所以目前正在做整合測試的工作那明年可以做發射了"},{"start":482.278,"end":482.298,"text":"吳沛憶"}]}},{"id":"151065","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151065","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b54b73efb7413b4d9e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6e76c662ebc5f4a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:22:20 - 12:27:24","影片長度":"00:05:04","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":304,"end_time":"2024-04-11T12:27:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T12:22:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時22分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。有關這次野保法修正草案第十九條，我當然很肯定我們農業部終於把這最後一哩路也送進來了，就是獸鋏終於要全面禁用了，因為這個也是非常多保育團體跟農民、跟原民做過溝通之後大家的共識，我認為不能申請使用算是一個進步啦，但是我還是必須要講一下山豬吊的部分，因為這個金屬套索目前無差別的特性還是有發生過很多案例會捕捉到目標物種以外的野生動物，導致他們的傷殘，甚至是死亡，像目前看過的案例有石虎、臺灣黑熊、穿山甲、臺灣水鹿、山羌，這些例子都還是有在發生，這件事情已經討論很多年了，我還是想要再次請教我們農業部，有沒有機會把這個山豬吊放進來？如果沒有辦法，配套措施是什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們現在是把獸鋏的部分先做全面的禁止，至於山豬吊的部分，我在一開始報告也說明了，就是說，因為目前靠近山區的農民及一些原住民部落還有必須使用的空間，但是同一時間我們也更積極的推廣改良式獵具，我們希望讓改良式的獵具更積極地推動，因為第十九條有授權我們可以公告其他禁止使用的獵具，所以我們預計，如果我們順利把這些改良式獵具推廣以後，我們在一年之內就可以把山豬吊的部分去做一個禁止。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明，意思就是說我們在一年內會把這個過渡期完成。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們期待是這個方向。"],["黃委員捷：可以全面汰換成改良式的獵具。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們朝這個方向去做。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個承諾必須要去執行，希望今年底之前，我們在一年內就讓它可以完全汰換掉，而不是繼續無限的有這個空間使用，變成山豬吊一直都還是存在。當然我也希望大家可以理解現在原民朋友跟農民朋友的需求，我也知道其實我們林保署滿用心的，這幾年一直都在推廣精準獵具的使用，我也知道你們現在到各地都還有再繼續開座談會，要跟大家做到最強力的溝通，所以我也希望再次提醒，我們中間的過渡期，在汰換的同時，把地方上這些溝通也做好，不要再發生這樣的悲劇。我看到最近一個案例，就是去年，不到一年的時間，就有一隻臺灣黑熊因為中了山豬吊，但牠沒有辦法掙脫，最後被活活餓死，這樣的悲劇仍然在發生，我不希望有這樣的事情再發生了。","另外就是這個改良式的精準獵具，我希望你們在推廣的同時，是不是也可以把規格儘量講清楚，然後搭配實名制來管理呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們在後續執法就會有一定的規範，相對的，這個實名制我想我們也可以研議，看怎麼樣把它納進去，因為它需要有一些配套的作為。"],["黃委員捷：好，推廣的同時，如果可以達到實名制，我相信是更精準的管理，並且還是要加強查緝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員捷：因為當你們公告出來之後，山豬吊就是非法的，我希望讓大家有一個明確的認知，然後也有充分的溝通。最後還是要問一下，因為在第十九條裡面有講到，其他經主管機關公告禁止的方法，可以有一個空白的授權，我擔心的是就算這個法授權下去之後，還是有一個地方主管機關可以去調整的空間，我怕的是這個調整的空間是不是地方政府也會把其他他們認為應該要禁止的放進去。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不會，這是由中央公告。"],["黃委員捷：所以絕對不會有地方政府……，都會是統一公告？"],["陳代理部長駿季：地方如果有意見，它會建議到中央來。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個就希望你們可以承諾，未來如果有新的獵具，你們要放進來的，都是由中央統一公告，因為現在地方法規還滿亂的，我就希望給你們統一公告之後……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不會，如果禁止的部分由地方政府各自公告的話就會亂七八糟，每個縣市都會不一樣。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以是由中央來公告。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個請你們務必要完成，最後希望可以趕快讓新法上路之後，我們全面禁用獸鋏，然後也把山豬吊的公告持續讓大家知道。以上，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外有陳冠廷委員、邱鎮軍委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.59346875,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.926593750000002,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.32034375,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.557218750000004,"end":78.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.78034375000001,"end":124.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.75409375000001,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.22659375,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.82971875000001,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.76596875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.00409375,"end":172.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.54346875000002,"end":214.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.93846875000003,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.03971875000002,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.73159375,"end":261.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.08096875,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.91846875000005,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.89284375,"end":266.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.90534375000004,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.90471875000003,"end":278.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.21096875,"end":282.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.42159375,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.35346875,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.28971875,"end":302.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.69659375000003,"end":304.40534375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.134,"end":11.099,"text":"條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":20.377,"end":37.298,"text":"在這一次的野保法的草案19條的修正中因為我當然很肯定我們農業部終於把這個最後一哩路也把它送進來就是這個壽甲終於要全面禁用了因為這個也是非常多保育團體然後也跟農民然後跟原民有做過溝通之後大家的共識"},{"start":39.04,"end":60.615,"text":"我認為不能申請使用這個算是一個進步但是我必須還是要講一下這個山豬調的部分因為這個金鎖套鼠目前這個無差別的特性還是有發生過很多的案例會捕捉到這個目標物種以外的野生動物導致他們的傷殘甚至是死亡像是目前看過的案例石虎"},{"start":61.576,"end":78.618,"text":"台灣黑熊、川山甲、台灣水路、山羌這些例子都還是有在發生那這件事情已經討論很多年了我還是想要再次請教我們農業部有沒有機會再把這個山豬釣放進來如果沒有辦法配套措施是什麼"},{"start":79.79,"end":103.28,"text":"你跟委員說明就是我們現在目前把這個售假的部分先做全面的禁止那至於刪除掉的部分我在一開始報告也說明了就是說因為目前靠近山區的農民還有一些原住民部落他還有必須使用的空間但是同一時間我們也更積極的推廣改良市的這些列據那我們希望說讓改良市的列據更積極的推動"},{"start":104.801,"end":123.462,"text":"條之一及第十九條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":125.364,"end":140.409,"text":"可以全面的汰壞成改良式的秩序。這個承諾必須要去執行希望今年底之前我們在一年內就讓它可以完全的汰換掉而不是繼續的無限的繼續讓有這個空間使用那變成說山豬釣其實一直都還是存在"},{"start":145.071,"end":153.899,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之"},{"start":172.515,"end":190.565,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":200.93,"end":219.385,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":224.509,"end":244.761,"text":"當你們公告出來之後刪除掉就是非法的。」我希望讓大家有一個明確的認知然後也有這個充分的溝通那最後還是要問一下說因為這個其實在你們這個19條裡面有講到說其他金主管機關公告的禁止的方法是可以有一個空白的授權"},{"start":245.401,"end":246.082,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":267.921,"end":288.153,"text":"好,那這個就希望你們可以承諾就是未來如果有新的列據你們要放進來的就是都是由中央統一來公告因為其實現在地方法規還蠻亂的喔那我就是要說就是給你們統一公告之後如果禁止的部分有地方政府各自公告的話那就會亂七八糟的每個縣市都不一樣所以是由中央來公告"},{"start":288.553,"end":302.042,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"}]}},{"id":"151064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b3310853218d56a2a3e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6f64eb80a4ea747985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:19:17 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都一樣去重申了這個調查權在監察院的這樣的一個對接"},{"start":76.972,"end":82.454,"text":"立法院當然在憲法的57條67條有講到文件調閱權但這東西你可以看到大幅幅改變對立法院的文件調閱權事實上大法官解釋看起來大幅幅對立法委員沒信任"},{"start":95.74,"end":101.862,"text":"我比較白沒信任325號是在說什麼325號就是說這個這個立法院這調查權是監察院再來在585呢585是說這個你要調查你否要行使這個調查權的時候你有幾個必須是要排除的包括考試院他們對人事的一個評價包括司法院他們對於整個判決的一個評議"},{"start":123.537,"end":132.382,"text":"這個大概是在文件調閱權的一個限制那後來這個791號的大法官解釋也講了729號我剛剛講錯729號的大法官解釋他也認為說你縱使可以去調閱這個偵查的案件也必須要限縮在他們已經偵查完畢已經偵查完畢而且如果還涉及到另案的"},{"start":151.231,"end":151.472,"text":"立法院行使文件調閱權"},{"start":181.231,"end":181.812,"text":"公聽委員：蔡易餘"},{"start":206.244,"end":223.834,"text":"然後讓立法委員可以偵探我們的權利,我們要有調查權我們要跟監察委員有調查權,而且我們這個調查權我們還希望擴及到對私人領域的部分,我們也要調查權我具體建議,這樣要修憲的時候,有些東西應該要提掉就是未來立法委員應該要取消言論免責權"},{"start":231.941,"end":244.007,"text":"取消言論免責權回到大法官解釋435號435號的大法官對立法院的言論免責權很好很好他就擴張他就說除了立法院委員發言質詢提案表決甚至你黨團協商你公聽會發言都可以在言論免責權的保護範圍所以你看出來大法官的用意對立法委員質詢就是說讓你盡量講"},{"start":260.584,"end":280.394,"text":"你可以去用講的你講我用言論免責權保護你但是調查這一塊大法官解釋依憲法的一個架構下還不夠信任立法委員有辦法行使這樣的權利所以他把這塊的權利把它獨立起來所以這整個架構所以我覺得要說這個立法委員你現在說我要擴權到調查權的時候很簡單的那應該我們就是放棄言論免責權"},{"start":287.398,"end":299.745,"text":"否則你可以想像 立法委員有言論免責權 我又要行使調查權 我的調查又要針對私人來調查 輸定公司 輸定企業 我都要人調查 我的言論免責權我可以亂講 我講不服這人的 因為我言論免責 所以你看現在有的立委 他就什麼事情就連連看 這人那人 亂看 看起來大家三個沒辦法 因為言論免責"},{"start":318.148,"end":339.715,"text":"真正立法委員有辦法透過他的質詢 把事情揭露 把事情調查完畢也是過去有很多案例 我要說馬王政爭的時候當時立法委員也是用我們既有的權力 用透過質詢台的質詢管碧玲委員可以揭露行政權監聽國會"},{"start":341.937,"end":351.994,"text":"劉兆豪委員把當時的特政組 把當時的黃世民 檢察總長 要做的事情用質詢的過程問得一清二楚"},{"start":353.496,"end":361.123,"text":"所以就是說我們透過質詢要有辦法每件事情查明、每件事情了解你現在沒辦法透過每一個質詢你就說我要擴權、我要有調查權這樣很簡單的具體建議修憲的時候要有調查權就放棄立法委員的言論免責以上是我一個建議 謝謝"},{"start":375.114,"end":384.512,"text":"好 謝謝現在所有學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢接下來進行政府機關代表發言"}]}},{"id":"151063","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151063","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b4d57eed486c15ae1e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6dfe319c4cacb412b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:14:44 - 12:22:16","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":452,"end_time":"2024-04-11T12:22:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T12:14:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時14分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我想你應該知道地面型的光電近期在中南部其實引起了很多環境生態相關的討論，我們在很多報導裡面看到好像業者、社區、NGO常常處在一種衝突的關係跟局面下，但如果我們仔細去看國外的一些作法會發現，其實國外好像已經有很多成功的案例，透過一些我覺得很具巧思的設計跟配套，光電在自然生態跟農業生產其實有滿多融合雙贏的例子。比方螢幕左邊這個英國的案例，你可以看到他們透過設計讓這個案場多了很多生物多樣性，甚至還出了一本指引；右邊是荷蘭的例子，他們設計了光電的地景公園，反而吸引了很多野鳥來棲息，做到很多社區的共融。看起來這些融合或者是這些雙重、多重效益是做得到，國外的案例很多，如果在臺灣有類似的作法，透過設計讓衝突能夠走向共融，甚至是多贏，部長，你覺得值不值得推廣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我個人認為光電結合農業就是以農為本、光電加值的這個概念，最重要的一點就是在臺灣，當然沒有錯，很多地景都很好，不過我以實務上來看……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我先問你如果能夠做得到的話，我先做這個前提……"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果說真正做到像歐洲那樣子的話，我覺得可以，絕對可以往前去思考。"],["洪委員申翰：你同不同意能夠進一步往前推廣？如果做得到的話，當然前提是要做得到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得可以往前去做一個規劃，因為目前的問題不在地的問題，是在本身包括我們的光電區、漁電共生只用到8%而已。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在問你同不同意，如果做得到可不可以往前推動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果做得到像您提供的照片這樣的話，我覺得可以值得進一步的去規劃，那是共融的部分。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你們農業部其實之前有要求一些光電的案場用信託的方式來處理生態補償的問題，最近有一個案例即將要上路，我看到是在臺南的將軍，這個光電業者是委託人，他提撥了一筆所謂生態補償金，銀行是作為受託人，銀行再把這筆錢給生態跟環境專業的NGO來作為受益人，讓他們可以用這筆錢去維護另一塊鹽灘濕地的生態，它的面積甚至達到1,200公頃，非常大片，所以其實它有機會可以讓包括水鳥、包括濕地環境可以棲息，做到我覺得效果很好的異地補償，部長，你覺得這個作法是不是跟過去的看起來不太一樣，有機會大家可以做一點研究，甚至往前鼓勵？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得您所提到的這個案例我們必須再去詳細的瞭解，因為從照片看起來是很漂亮，但是在實務上到底是怎麼樣的一個三角關係，以及他們之間的互動……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，那些相關案例你有鼓勵大家可以用信託的方式來處理啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想信託是方法之一，但是我要回到本質，就是當這個光電進到這個場域的時候是不是能夠維持那邊的生態，那個才是重點，而不是用信託。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要先跟你說，我今天跟你討論這件事最重要的是，其實有很多民間團體，包括環保團體，在做各項的嘗試，他們現在希望能夠用公益信託的方式，我們的公益信託其實是要跟主管機關來做申請，但目前生態保育的主管機關沒有訂定公益信託的子法，所以現在反而是思考怎麼樣能夠讓事情雙贏的NGO組織必須要用所謂的他益信託的方式，這個他益信託反而需要繳交最高20%的稅額。部長，你覺得在你心中公益信託的理念，假如真的有公共利益的話，我們是不是該推動、是不是該支持？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果真的是用公益的概念去做的話，我覺得公益信託子法是值得去做相關的研議，而不是回到一般用閃避的方式或用其他的信託方式去處理。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，可是現在問題來了啊，我們現在就沒有公益信託的子法，現在環境部有，可是它只針對環境教育，不是針對生態保育。"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK，這個部分我可以回去以後請我們的農金署來做這個公益子法的相關研議。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這個可能要你們農金署跟生態保育的主管機關，因為是要跟主管機關來做相關的申請……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們先去……"],["洪委員申翰：我同意它應該要符合所謂的公益，但是我們連子法都沒有，我們連要去判斷它符不符合公益都沒有辦法！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我認為今天不管有沒有這個案例，從環境保育的角度，現在有越來越多的團體都希望保育能夠用公益信託的方式來做到更多的雙贏，也越來越多人也許願意出資、出錢來請專業的人幫忙保育，但現在都卡在農業部沒有子法，大家無從操作、無從往前走、無從執行，大家都必須要用他益信託的方式，但是要繳20%的稅額，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得不合理，但是剛才您講到一個非常重要的，這個保育的東西跟你剛才的光電可能是兩件事，不一定是結合在一起，因為有很多很多種生態的保育是由保育團體來做的。"],["洪委員申翰：我認為剛剛我講的案例有機會成為公益信託裡面好的案例，但這件事情……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是唯一的，不是唯一！"],["洪委員申翰：對，可是大家可以以專業來做判斷。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：可是當你們子法都沒有的時候，連判斷的依據、連判斷的操作與執行都沒有！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，二個月內把我們公益信託的子法給訂定出來，參考其他部會，至少把子法訂定出來，有沒有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我可以承諾的就是把子法的草案，我們先跟公益團體討論也要有一個基本的草案，因為訂定出來本身要有非常多的程序，我們把整個規劃的草案先……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，二個月，請你們找相關團體，包括業者等等等一起來討論……"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：包括銀行，大家期望一個什麼樣公益信託的操作方法，我們把它定出來，好不好？二個月。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，二個月可以。"],["洪委員申翰：草案提出來，然後找相關的團隊一起來討論。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們再來去討論細節。"],["洪委員申翰：我覺得這是一個重要的基礎！"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，這個我認同。"],["洪委員申翰：好，那麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。接下來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案。"},{"start":29.69,"end":49.048,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":50.029,"end":71.074,"text":"但其實我們仔細去看國外的一些做法會發現其實國外好像已經有很多成功的案例透過一些我覺得很具巧思的設計跟配套讓光電在自然生態跟農業生產其實蠻多融合雙贏的例子比方說你看一下在左邊這個英國的案例裡面你可以看到"},{"start":72.108,"end":87.151,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":102.665,"end":107.676,"text":"通過設計讓衝突能夠走向共榮甚至是多贏。」"},{"start":109.226,"end":136.768,"text":"部長你覺得值不值得推廣我個人認為光電結合農業就是以農為本光電加持這個概念那最重要的一點就是在臺灣現在當然沒有錯很多地景會都很好那不過我以實務上來看我先問你說如果能夠做得到我先說如果能夠真正的做到像歐洲那樣子的話我覺得是絕對可以往前去思考你覺得同不同意"},{"start":137.589,"end":152.044,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":152.756,"end":153.676,"text":"二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":175.7,"end":187.935,"text":"那這個光電業者是委託人提撥了一筆所謂生態補償金那銀行是作為受託人那銀行在把這筆錢給生態跟環境專業的NGO"},{"start":191.038,"end":209.161,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條"},{"start":219.855,"end":235.713,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":236.314,"end":247.543,"text":"不過我想信託是一個方法之一但是我要回到本質就是說當我這個光電進到這個場域的時候是不是能夠維持那邊的聲音那才是重點而不是用信託"},{"start":251.112,"end":272.119,"text":"其實有很多民間的團體包括環保團體在做各項的嘗試但是他們現在他們希望能夠用公益信託的方式我們公益信託其實是要跟主管機關來做申請但我們其實目前生態保育的主管機關我們沒有訂公益信託的執法所以呢"},{"start":273.311,"end":274.312,"text":"三（三（三（三（三（三（三（三（"},{"start":295.182,"end":316.164,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":318.246,"end":344.935,"text":"他不是針對生態保育的部分。好那這個部分我可不可以回去以後請我們的農經署來做這個公益執法的這些相關的研議。這個可能要你們農經署跟生態保育的主管機關。對。因為你是要跟主管機關來做相關的申請。對我們先去。因為現在我同意他應該要符合所謂的公益。是。但是我們連執法都沒有。我們連要去判斷他符合公益都沒有辦法。了解。"},{"start":345.956,"end":353.742,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":368.613,"end":370.135,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":378.208,"end":401.107,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中的20%的稅額,你覺得這合理嗎?我覺得不合理,但是剛才您講到一個非常重要的,這個保育的東西不是跟你的剛才的觀念是兩件事,不一定是結合在一起,因為它有很多很多種生態的保育是由保育團體來做的。我認為剛剛我講的案例有機會成為公益系統裡面好的案例,但這件事情當然不是唯一的,可是大家可以專業來做判斷。"},{"start":402.628,"end":403.769,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":429.71,"end":430.811,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件"}]}},{"id":"151062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200baa3ee558b3dc21d23e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6de75427302bf28855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:11:24 - 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林佳龍有提過"},{"start":128.052,"end":147.494,"text":"沒有共識第9屆我跟顧立雄我們也共同提案啊還是社會沒有共識啊不是我們人少是因為社會沒有共識我為什麼說不要高估立法院呢各位把它想想看喔你像比如我就先不我就不再去談這個什麼大法官的一個解釋了你去看看我們如果真的要落實國會調查跟聽證的話"},{"start":150.044,"end":175.594,"text":"剛剛各位學者專家所提到的整個國安餘力的部分你怎麼辦以立法院來講本身的資安我們的防衛能力就有很大的一個問題這個我就自己我都跟我們這個周秘書長我也去跟他去諮詢的時候要求他趕快去加強資安這個是整個世界各國相當重視的一個國安的問題我們台灣我們這個國家遭受網路攻擊的次數在亞太地區我們第一名"},{"start":177.615,"end":186.939,"text":"你據國際研究機構的一個評估光在去年112年我國遭受攻擊事件急劇增加了80%每秒鐘將近1.5萬次的一個攻擊發生那依據整個數位發展部的一個事前聯訪監控的一個報告裡面政府機關資安聯訪的情資在2月份一共發生的47912件意圖對政府部門發動資安攻擊那"},{"start":201.906,"end":209.29,"text":"如何去有效的確保整個資安維護的一個事項我們在資通安全管理辦法第11條就明定了你公務機關應該設置資安長然後他成立了相關推動組織跟推動相關的一個工作但是以目前立法院組織法跟相關職長來看的話"},{"start":221.636,"end":245.103,"text":"我們根本就連這個相關的那個資通安全的維護工作的主責單位都還沒有啊所以各位真的是太看得起我們立法院了討論絕對是一件好事我認為在這一部法令的一個啊這個整個國會調查的部分我們在討論的過程裡面啊那個最大的一個邊際設成效應就是第一個先逼迫立法院把這些治安安全的工作先去把它做好"},{"start":246.226,"end":261.413,"text":"那第二個我要提的就是說那個射程跟那個手段真的大家必須要大家要很很謹慎剛剛我提到治安的部分你就說這樣比如說我們都討在立法院都非常討厭秘密會議啊這個會議的內內容會去外洩的一個問題啊但是我們也不要去忽略了來自於網路上的這些的一個攻擊啊所以本席啊我們期待這次國會改革修法過程裡面一併"},{"start":272.79,"end":275.091,"text":"立法院至少會檢到說治安讓他可以更去做一個強化那我為什麼一直在講說那個應該限縮整個國會調查裡面你這個對象還有那個強制力這個強制手段這個部分你不能過度的一個擴張我們立法院形象已經夠差了這種擴權"},{"start":296.315,"end":303.4,"text":"這種擴權的部分不要為了大家好好講到一個說國會改革要講得很大聲這才是很衝的一定是這樣子嗎 未必 未必藐視國會 這個很空泛的各位憲法第23條裡面除了那四項以外你要限制人民的基本自由"},{"start":317.847,"end":325.696,"text":"那個都要用法律去你不能去違反比例原則那我們現在就又增加了一個藐視國會又創設了一個憲法第23條裡面所沒有的一個事項裡面這個就有點超過了"},{"start":334.466,"end":340.688,"text":"尤其是你看歷屆的大法官解釋裡面你在729號裡面解釋裡面對司法機關的當然偵查中不敢我相信立法院也不敢就算偵查完以後不是也不是國會愛怎麼調查就要怎麼調查也必須要立行使憲法上職權有重大關聯那個目的也不是立法院說我愛哪裡範圍要多廣就多廣那你也要非常特定這個範圍非常特定所以以這部分來看的話不是"},{"start":364.556,"end":369,"text":"我沒有看到任何一個政黨說反對國會改革反對聽證跟調查不我們要的是說大家謹慎來討論這個社程真的要那麼廣嗎要到私人嗎立法院是有言論免責權的地方立法院是可以胡說八道的老百姓來了以後你這樣藐視國會沒有據實陳述做成決議送檢調"},{"start":391.595,"end":395.764,"text":"亂掉了 四年接受老百姓審判一次 檢驗一次國會議員是要這樣子喔 那現在不是 現在是國會的反撲"},{"start":404.339,"end":418.614,"text":"來調查 私人的 或者私人企業 私人機構的國會有這麼大的一個權限這到最後都被逼迫政治上的一個表態這個太為難人民了立法委員 我認為沒有這麼大國會調查權 不管是聽證或者調會權"},{"start":421.957,"end":425.019,"text":"民主進步黨我們也贊成只是大家再來討論一下這個手段跟這個對象是不是要無限的一個擴張更期待涉及到國安的部分各個部門尤其是國會現在沒有資格跟人家談這些了你整個治安都完全都還沒有建立好所以貿然的這樣子把範圍過度的一個擴張的話"},{"start":441.747,"end":441.807,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151061","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b03a6281b43d6b42b039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a613d3a7d221f21e215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:10:12 - 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對不對所以本學會繼續監督你們趕快去談看那個方案到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":395.077,"end":417.794,"text":"有了初步的方案請也給本席這個書面的資料最後一個議題人工智慧AI連昨天昨天公佈準總統公佈他說是要AI的這個這個團隊我們還以為這麼飛行呢但是不是他是行動TIFA跟Innovation的他是"},{"start":418.735,"end":422.477,"text":"政府有可能會在年底的時候來提出人工智慧法"},{"start":447.929,"end":464.501,"text":"520要改組,我不論誰來當主委,是不是續任但是我仍舊希望這一個工作一定要持續去推動因為這個務必要達成成功,你的看法呢?是,我想這個時程本身到目前為止是不變的"},{"start":465.742,"end":471.706,"text":"主委上個月告訴我們說到年底會拿出來,現在的進度呢?各位報告,現在進度,現在就是除了參考各國的立法的一個內容以外呢,我們現在積極的跟業界跟學界在溝通"},{"start":491.798,"end":491.938,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151060","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151060","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bae84d75f5a090b3fe63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6f46c87f22c9e3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:06:55 - 12:14:42","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":467,"end_time":"2024-04-11T12:14:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T12:06:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1011,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時7分）主席好，有請部長，還有原民會。"],["主席：請陳部長及原民會代表。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，辛苦了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這一次野保法的修法，其中之一是因應大法官釋字第803號解釋，要來尊重原住民的狩獵文化，所以我們在看院版的時候，尤其是第二十一條的部分，如果是一般野生動物，原住民基於傳統文化、祭儀或非營利自用的目的的話是免罰，但是需要備查，至於一般野生動物在非原住民的話，依據第二十一條是免罰，並沒有需要備查。","另外一個部分，我們也看到院版第十九條的部分，有關這些獵捕的方法，我是因為看到你們的說明有提到「至於原住民族所用傳統獵具，與前開定義之型式不同者，非屬獸鋏範圍，併予敘明」，可是我們完全沒有看到關於原住民傳統獵具這樣的一個文字。所以我自己有提出修正動議，希望把原住民族的傳統獵具分別列出，另外連動到第二十一條之一，也希望去做一個分別的處理，把它納入傳統獵具。再來，就是希望能夠鑑於資訊落差，有一個兩年的輔導期，請問部長，這樣子可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個部分，我跟委員說明，就是原住民的傳統獵具，我們採用的是一個負面表列的方式，因為原住民傳統獵具有非常非常多的多樣化，如果用正面表列的話，可能會有掛一漏萬的部分，所以我們這一次的修法針對獸鋏的部分是很明確的，而且它有它定義的部分。","第二個部分，您提到說當我們實施以後，希望有一個兩年緩衝期的部分，我要跟委員說明，就是說，當我們做禁止的時候，我如果提供了兩年的緩衝期，對於在使用這個獵具的人，他就會等到兩年以後再說，但我們同步在推改良式的這些獵具，所以我們希望改良式的獵具能夠儘快的去推。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我特別請原民會在這個地方要幫忙一下，就是關於什麼是傳統獵具，它的規範、它的輔導，我希望原民會一起來推動這個部分，好不好？"],["宋處長麗茹：跟委員報告，其實相關的辦法，我們也跟林保署開過很多的會，如同剛剛部長所說的，負面表列的這個部分，我想我們可能可以再進一步來討論看看。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。","另外，我要做一個提醒，因為農業部這邊，林保署針對獎輔造林，從過去的20年60萬，現在有一個公告修正的版本，就是6年最高60萬，因為預告期已經滿了，很關心，就是要提醒何時上路，為什麼？因為在禁伐補償的案件申請是每一年的1月1號到4月底，但是根據你們的草案，是規定施行後的一年內，它是用匡定一年內，如果你要針對七年以上的造林要終止，他要加入禁伐補償是很好，免返還已領取的造林獎勵金，所以這個部分是很好的一個權益，可是我們很關心何時上路，因為禁伐補償的申請是到4月底，如果沒有配合的話，他們這一整年的權益就會損失，所以希望農業部跟原民會能夠針對這個空窗期去研議一下，看是要針對今年做一個例外展延，還是怎麼做，針對這個部分我是做一個提醒。","另外，我也想要追問一個問題，因為部長你應該很瞭解，我去年有關心我們有一群真正的老農民，這些人過去做過工作，可是呢，當他領取那一次的給付結清之後，因為年紀沒有趕上國民年金的上路，所以他們現在變成被排除的一群老人家，處境堪憐。對於政府不能夠改善他們的問題，我也覺得過不去啦，我特別看到農業部這個地方其實有講到辦理農保的目的是為了要照顧長期從事農業工作的農民，在發生事故的時候，他的經濟生活可以獲得保障，可是另外也特別提到，並不鼓勵長期從事其他職業，領有社會保險其他老年給付的人，因此就把他認定為已經有晚年生活的基本保障，所以他不得參加農保。可是我有講到確實是有這樣的漏接，當時您也有提到，如果他們確實是被漏接的一群，就應該要去想辦法幫忙。我也有找過農業部的同仁來討論，可是大家好像束手無策，我自己是看到在民國68年其實曾經有這樣的一個提案，就是說，像這樣的一個狀況，被認為是選擇性的社會福利措施，嚴重違背福利行政的公平原則，跟當時上路的條例的立法主旨不符合。所以在隔年我也看到，針對那些已領取勞工保險老年給付的漁會甲類會員，後來是開放他們進入到老年津貼的部分，所以並不是沒有方法。因此我希望是不是可以至少去盤點這一類的農民人數，然後對於這種結算金額過低的農民，是不是去研議怎麼樣讓他們至少在老年的生活能夠獲得保障，符合我們辦理農保的目的，部長，因為時間的關係，我就是做這樣的一個訴求。","主席，再給我一個議題。另外，我在3月1號的院會質詢上有要求說，針對我們目前現有的非法小型露營場，其實我們上路以來，幾乎沒有人能夠取得合法，最主要就是因為它位於19項的環境敏感地區，我希望你們開會，那請問有開會了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們應該有相關的會議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有開會了？那我一定要拜託一下部長，拜託農業部，因為這個土石潛勢區，其實原住民45%都位在這邊，而且上面有很多的房舍，但是能夠有房舍卻不能夠有這種露營帳篷，其實是滿奇怪的，而且劃設土石流潛勢區只是希望我們能夠去做防減災的工作，所以針對這個法源依據的理由，我還是希望能夠到我的辦公室來做說明，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們到委員辦公室說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們想個辦法來解決他們的問題。","最後，我要表達感謝，因為我一直關心原保地的貸款業務，原民會跟農業金庫公司願意開始來合作，所以我特別要針對這個部分，未來原住民保留地貸款業務合作方案的內容希望能在一個月內能夠提供，但是我是要藉這個機會特別謝謝農業部及農業金庫。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.168468750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.63221875,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.06096875,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.84971875,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.05221875,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.87284375,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.18659375,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.32159375,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.55784375,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.04221875,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.16346875,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.04034375,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.84409375,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.08034375,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.37971875,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.97409375,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.37846875,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.26846875,"end":154.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.82096875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.15784375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.65534375000001,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.93346875,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.27471875,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.47221875000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.36971875,"end":262.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.30221875,"end":235.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.21346875,"end":400.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.96471875000003,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.45784375000005,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.94284375,"end":462.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.30471875,"end":435.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.33846875,"end":436.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.82346875,"end":436.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.08534375000005,"end":462.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.45221875000004,"end":465.96659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.179,"end":11.98,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":24.35,"end":24.691,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一"},{"start":44.173,"end":64.31,"text":"即宜或非營利自用的墓地的話是免罰但是需要被查那一般野生動物在非原住民的話呢依據21條是免罰並沒有需要被查那另外一個部分我們也看到院版就是關於第十九條的部分關於這些列補的方法"},{"start":65.031,"end":81.964,"text":"而我是因為看到我們的說明有提到至於原住民族所用的傳統列據與前開定義之形式不同者非屬授甲範圍並與序名可是呢我們就完全沒有看到關於原住民傳統列據"},{"start":83.685,"end":105.703,"text":"這樣的一個文字。」所以呢我自己呢在修正動議呢我是希望說把原住民族的傳統列據齁把它分別的列出那另外也連動到21條之一也希望去做一個分別的處理齁把它納入傳統列據那再來就是希望能夠鑑於資訊落差有一個兩年的輔導期"},{"start":109.266,"end":110.047,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":124.97,"end":147.066,"text":"所以我們這一次的修法台用這個授甲的部分是很明確的而且還有它的定義的部分那第二個部分就是您提到說就是當我實施以後有兩年的一個緩衝期的部分我要跟委員說明就是說當我們做禁止的時候我如果提供了兩年的緩衝期那對於在使用這個獵具的人他就會"},{"start":148.067,"end":174.197,"text":"等到兩年以後再說,那我們同步再推改良式的這些列具,所以我們希望說改良式的列具能夠盡快的去推。所以我特別要請袁明慧這個地方要幫忙一下,就是關於什麼是傳統列具,它的規範、它的輔導,那個我希望袁明慧一起來推動這個部分好不好?好,各位委員報告,其實相關的辦法我們也跟這個林保署也開過很多的會議,那如同剛剛部長所說的這個婚宴表列的這個部分,"},{"start":177.538,"end":178.579,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":204.298,"end":226.828,"text":"因為在禁法補償他的案件申請是每一年的一月一號到四月底但是根據我們的草案說施行後的一年內他是用框定一年內如果你要針對七年的以上的照領要終止他要加入禁法補償是很好免返還已領取的照領獎勵金"},{"start":227.868,"end":253.599,"text":"所以這個部分是很好的一個權益可是我們很關心何時上路因為他進法補償的申請到四月底如果沒有配合的話他們這一整年的權益就會損失所以希望農業部跟園民會能夠把這個空窗期去研議一下他是要針對今年做一個例外展演還是怎麼做我希望這個部分就是做一個提醒"},{"start":254.139,"end":260.066,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之"},{"start":275.663,"end":299.787,"text":"所以他現在變成被排除的一群老人家處境勘連那我覺得政府對於不能夠改善他們的問題我也覺得過不去啦吼那我特別看到農業部這個地方其實有講到辦理農保的目的是為了要照顧長期從事農業工作的農民在發生事故的時候他的經濟生活可以保障可是另外也特別提到說"},{"start":300.467,"end":314.696,"text":"並不鼓勵長期從事其他職業領有社會保險其他的老年給付的。」那因為就把他認為說他已經有晚年生活的基本保障所以他不得參加農保可是我有講到"},{"start":315.356,"end":323.679,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":333.283,"end":340.708,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":355.657,"end":357.839,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件 條文修正草案案件"},{"start":376.192,"end":377.153,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":400.532,"end":401.894,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":415.936,"end":432.123,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":435.804,"end":436.524,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件。"},{"start":463.571,"end":464.396,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b846c84224bbe4393039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6f1d093e7d9452a045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:02:53 - 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有請林副主委蘇局長委員長副主委早 局長好 來 我們來看一下太空教育資源這個標題錯了"},{"start":34.25,"end":53.098,"text":"平東縣政府為了推動太空產業還簽署一個人才培育MOU這個照片是我們周縣長帶著相關的主管到休斯頓去簽署一個MOU包括了民間企業跟人才培育國科會能做什麼 協助地方政府我們是不是 平東科學園區的部分"},{"start":53.94,"end":69.345,"text":"這個部分我們除了在評科時中的教育裡面﹐可以銜接太空的課程以外﹐很好 馬上命中 來我們看下一頁就是說目前太空中心﹐可以做這些太空課普教育﹐科技人才培育﹐推動民間參與﹐請教副主委 那麼太空中心﹐能協助中小學的太空教育嗎"},{"start":70.605,"end":93.337,"text":"我想委員提出一個非常重要就是我們事實上是太空中心跟科學園區這兩個東西能不能夠專業結合在一起來那針對當地的整個需求我想這個應該我們是可以支持的好來我來考一下科學時鐘我們叫平科時鐘啦屏東科學園區實驗中小學今年要正式招生入學了"},{"start":94.217,"end":115.085,"text":"預計招生目前幼稚園、國中小、高中部加起來 預計要招生這麼多 超過700人平科時鐘今年招生的時候你看看這個照片 因為目前平科時鐘還在新建校舍這是暫時借用大人課大的智慧教室看起來是不是很有我們太空時代的感覺"},{"start":116.465,"end":117.147,"text":"請問有什麼資源可以導入呢?"},{"start":125.435,"end":127.055,"text":"科學園區實驗中學適用教育部所訂定的實驗教育三法"},{"start":147.998,"end":169.545,"text":"我之前問過 蘇局長有沒有印象 沒有印象他不是用實驗三法他為什麼不用實驗三法 我們來看一下他是根據什麼設立的他是根據社管條例對 你明明叫做實驗中學可是你是根據社管條例請問教育部的實驗三法 國科會有看到嗎法條上為什麼叫做實驗中學 你要實驗什麼"},{"start":173.125,"end":198.066,"text":"你的名稱有實驗中學啊,你要實驗什麼?你又不是用實用三法,實驗三法,你要實驗什麼?你能不能試著回答一下,從竹科實中開始這個因為立法的背景不太一樣,科學研究室設置管理條例很早就在立法,然後他那時候有實驗中學早於實驗三法的實踐啊,好,所以我們要問了,副主委,現在有實驗三法了,實驗三法有什麼好處?我告訴你,實驗三法有三種"},{"start":198.746,"end":222.012,"text":"一個是學校形態的實驗教育．一個是公私立學校委託私人辦．一個是非學校形態的實驗教育．科學時中可以用什麼．可以用學校形態的實驗教育的實施條例．這叫實驗三法．包括目前屏東原住民鄉的．摩爾國小．還有苗栗的玄仁實驗中學．這都是學校形態有功力有勢力．有包括你的師資來源．你的教育理念．你的教學場所．你的課程設計．簡單講．"},{"start":224.133,"end":245.525,"text":"目前如果科學時鐘可以實現實驗三法．你的課程、課糠．就不受到現有的．這個12年一貫的一個限制．你的師資．也可以不受教師法的限制．這對於後來我們要談的事情很重要．副主委有沒有概念了．有概念了．好那我來往下找．來我們告訴你．什麼叫做創新的科學時鐘．"},{"start":246.465,"end":264.973,"text":"其實你們科學職中目前只有兩個地方不一樣第一個你們設在科學園區我們假設來科學園上班的人都非常的科學非常的先進非常的不同第二個因為這些人可能來自很多國家所以他是有雙語部除了這兩點之外科學職中有什麼實驗性質嗎"},{"start":267.008,"end":288.852,"text":"沒有啊 雙語不可以啊你有實驗什麼特別的教學教法嗎 沒有啊所以那時候我在教育委員會就質詢了我們希望怎麼樣你除了影進太空課程之外 線上課程有遠距生不限定在評科時鐘裡面的學生你的師資你可以從休斯頓去找老師不受我們目前師資法的規定你可以用海外師來進行遠距教學"},{"start":289.372,"end":314.855,"text":"副主委,這樣聽起來有沒有覺得有吸引力了?非常具體有吸引力好,那這樣只要你責成一件事情國科會能不能將更新的教學方法或內容引進實驗中小學呢?就要請你去評估用科學評科時鐘開始來試驗試用實驗三法創新教學方式並導入太空課程你就可以要求我們南科學來做一個這樣的一個評估嗎?是,我們可以評估局長可以嗎?"},{"start":315.936,"end":316.216,"text":"教育部協調"},{"start":340.305,"end":363.215,"text":"規格上是因為實驗中學他有學制很多規模也比較大他不是用這個實驗形態的學校不過這個精神我們是可以融入在實驗中學學校形態的實驗教育要有一定的人數規模目前科學之中的招生人數還沒有到達但是因為他未來設定的編制元額是到達的這一點我會來協助由國科會跟教育部共同來"},{"start":364.377,"end":370.492,"text":"讓平科時鐘成為第一所優先適用實驗三法的科學時鐘好不好"},{"start":371.664,"end":371.784,"text":"謝謝副主委 謝謝局長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b34f0442e0dade476e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a60e1aaeda16fd8c625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:59:27 - 12:06:53","影片長度":"00:07:26","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":446,"end_time":"2024-04-11T12:06:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:59:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":969,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時59分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，雖然今天講漁業跟動保，但我有一個比較急迫的事情想要跟部長講一下，就是我們今年第一期的水稻，嘉義跟臺南本來照輪灌的制度，去年是臺南停灌、嘉義耕作，因為我們一樣是烏山頭水系的，但今年呢？因為去年缺水時間比較長，所以後來就讓臺南的部分恢復供灌，也就是它可以繼續種植水稻。所以現在就產生一個問題了，因為這件事情是後面才決定的，而過去水利會在供水的時候，它會做分區供水，分區供水最主要的目的當然就是為了讓水稻不要在同時間收成，但後來因為我們臨時改變了這個政策方向，等於是打破原則，打破原則之後，本來臺南大概是在農曆過年前就會先灌，我們則是差不多在農曆過年期間換我們農民灌，本來過去都是這樣，結果這次變成同時間灌耶！部長，你有注意到這個問題嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：之前農水署就有在談這個事情，就是我們會做最好的一個輪灌、供灌的協調，這是第一點。第二點，大區輪灌我們是暫緩，我們現在希望把它修成更積極的作為，因為過去……"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道這個政策是有在檢討，我現在要講今年的狀況……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，輪灌的部分，我們會處理……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這已經發生了，現階段已經發生了，就是今年度一期的水稻變成同時間灌溉，所以我現在很煩惱，開始要收成的時候，如果那時又下「生狂雨」，農民在搶割的時候，會不會造成塞車？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們也有預擬這樣的情況，就是說，未來如果在搶收的時候，因為它的收穫期比較集中，集中的時候，如果農會本身的烘乾系統不夠的話，我們會調度到其他鄉鎮，會來做處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道，那時候我們地方也有跟你們建議，就是北稻南調、南稻北調，配合烘乾的期間，大家可以錯開。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：錯開是一點，但我現在煩惱的是價格，我有點煩惱價格，我相信部長應該聽到很多人在說……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：說真的現在工資都漲了，我們知道現在種水稻的習慣大概都會委託給代耕業者，所以他們的工資變成他們很重要的成本來源。所以我現在煩惱的是，如果又遇到這樣的情形，看起來今年的產量，因為又在同一時間，會有相對衝高的效果，我煩惱今年一期的價格跟他的成本，萬一這個價格不夠漂亮，他的成本又高，部長，這件事情……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們在上個禮拜有把我們針對整個稻作政策，即確保糧食安全跟農民收益的政策規劃送到立法院來，其中有一個非常重要的就是，雖然我們的成本過去十年提高了大概一成，大概兩萬塊，從差不多10萬變成12萬塊，不過我們的產量也提高了，所以他整體成本的提高大概只有差不多3%左右而已，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，因為水稻公糧如果提高了以後，從我們過去的經驗來看，當年可能不錯，民糧當年也會跟著走，所以……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我都知道你的意思啦，因為很多農民現在的心聲是，要不然就將公糧的價格拉高，否則一旦將來碰到價格不好的時候，這個聲音就會更大喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你一定要正視農民的聲音。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我絕對會正視。"],["蔡委員易餘：你一定要正視農民現在對於整個臺灣什麼東西都在漲，唯獨就是米價沒有漲，我們吃的米都沒有漲價……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：對於這件事情，農民心裡面是充滿著很大的怨言。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我也要跟部長說，你們要有一些政策的配套，如果你們覺得說，你們不想要因為公糧價格造成米價上漲的情況，你們就要有你們的政策配套。所以我還是具體的說，過去我們曾經有對綠色的給付，對地補貼、綠色給付，就是一分地1,350這部分，後來因為農業保險中水稻保險的開辦，然後就把這個政策做一個替換。我是覺得你們應該再認真思考，關於綠色給付或者是休耕轉作，不是啦，不是休耕轉作，轉作，不是休耕喔，就單純的轉作，因為我們的目的就是希望水稻可以減少，以免它塞倉嘛，不要讓倉庫全部都只收購水稻，然後那麼多水稻就只能放在那裡，放在那裡就會賣不出去嘛。所以你們就要有一個最明確的配套措施，我們如果要鼓勵轉作，那到底要怎樣有足夠的誘因讓農民願意去轉作。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這是非常重要的一個關鍵，也就是說，怎麼樣用一個配套措施，我們現在也正在檢討我們轉作本身的這些給付，還有就是極短產區的部分，我們希望未來有更多的契作，因為現在用契作的價格通常都比我們的收購價還高。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然契作是一百分啦，但畢竟不可能每個地方都能夠契作，所以大家……"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們有很多配套的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我相信一定很多配套，可是大家所依賴的，因為並不是每個農民都是很會經營關係的，總是有些人在這方面的能力是比較差的，他的人脈比較少，所以他就只能傻傻地做，他傻傻地做的目的是期待政府的配套，既然政府要我轉作，你要怎麼讓我有這個誘因去轉作。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：我轉作後如果是去種植黃小玉，你也知道玉米的價錢現在已經降下來了，降到7塊多。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以現在農民種植玉米不會比種水稻好啊，誘因又不足了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長，你們好好去思考這件事情，農民的想法很簡單，他只希望不要讓他種的東西是賠錢的，我覺得你們必須去正視這件事情。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我們會努力確保農民的收益。"],["蔡委員易餘：尤其是我聽到了這一次我們的一期水稻，然後又有同步灌溉的一個狀況，我心裡是很憂心的，請農業部一定要正視這個狀況，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，接下來我們請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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延長開會時間謝謝主席 那我們是有請我們部長來請陳部長"},{"start":19.835,"end":25.937,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":43.942,"end":67.488,"text":"臺南亭灌輪灌、臺南亭灌、嘉義耕作,因為我們趕翻是烏山河水系的。今年就因為去年有比較長的九年欠水,所以後來把臺南的部分讓它恢復公灌,也就是它可以繼續種植水稻。現在產生一個問題來了,過去因為我們這個台詞是後面比較固定的,過去水利會"},{"start":72.129,"end":89.323,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案件中,他會做分區供水,分區供水最主要目的當然就是為了讓水稻是可以在賣工時間做回修行。那後來因為我們臨時改變了這個政策方向,定義有打破原則。"},{"start":90.889,"end":92.41,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具〈遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":107.332,"end":107.752,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":138.033,"end":142.356,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其他條文"},{"start":159.051,"end":184.616,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":185.857,"end":186.397,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":202.096,"end":226.861,"text":"所以他們的工資變成他們很重要的身分的一個來源所以我現在歡樂的就是說又遇到這樣的話看起來今年的產量是會因為又在同一時間會有相對衝高的一個效果我歡樂今年齁一起的價格跟他的成本萬不幸齁這個介紹不夠漂亮啊他的身分都卡關"},{"start":228.277,"end":244.395,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":245.476,"end":255.327,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":264.022,"end":287.46,"text":"因為水稻如果說供糧提高了以後,從我們過去的經驗,當年可能不錯,當年民糧也會跟著走。」市長、部長我都知道你的意思啦,因為很多農民,他們的心想就是說,要不然這個供糧的介紹來扭軌,尤其我們在剛才介紹不好的時候,哇這個聲音就會更大,所以部長你必須要正式農民有這樣的一個聲音,你一定要正式農民現在對於整個"},{"start":290.222,"end":290.963,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":317.902,"end":327.469,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第五條之一及第六條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":346.903,"end":348.985,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案案》案"},{"start":369.746,"end":394.55,"text":"對,這個是非常重要的一個關鍵,就是說我怎麼樣用一個配套措施,那我們現在也正在檢討我們的轉座本身的這些給付還有就是集團產區的部分,我們希望說未來有更多的砌座,因為現在用砌座的價格都通常都比我們的收購價還高。當然,砌座是一百分嘛,我們在北京沒辦法說台灣有很多砌座。所以我們很多配套的。對,我相信一定很多配套,可是大家所"},{"start":394.77,"end":396.992,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具《遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案 案件》案件。"},{"start":420.11,"end":444.946,"text":"所以部長我們好好去思考這件事情,農民很簡單的,他只要不要讓他錢的東西掉錢的。我看到這件事情我要正視,尤其是我聽到了這一次我們一起水稻,然後又同步灌溉的一個狀況,我心裡是很憂心,我請農業部一定要正視這個狀況。好,謝謝委員提醒。好,謝謝。好,我們謝謝蔡易瑜委員。"}]}},{"id":"151057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b44ee1969ba54cf0f039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a635afc5b0a4ba0bcf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:55:58 - 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籌設計畫，明年起大概花兩年的時間通過都計、環評等等的，116年就可以來……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以其實跟你本來預估的時間，是沒有差的，對不對？你本來也是抓差不多116年的時候進入正式的土地徵收程序，對嗎？"],["王局長永壯：我們先溝通，希望反對聲音少一點，這樣徵收會比較順利。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然嘛！過程中有經過溝通，你前期溝通完整的時候，相對來講，後期推動的阻礙就變小嘛！所以還是照116年進入土地徵收的程序在進行，對嗎？"],["王局長永壯：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我希望大家積極一點，因為我想我剛剛講的中央出資的科學園區模式其實是大家都喜歡的，也可以符合國科會做整體的產業科技布局，是最符合這樣子的一個政策精神的，所以希望就照章進行，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，本席也要藉這個機會跟國科會討論，既然我們瞭解到產業園區跟科技園區其實都有缺地的問題，本席在這邊要提一個概念，我們桃園的航空城其實是有非常充沛的土地資源，目前的優先區，也就是蛋黃區的部分，已經大致完成所謂的用地取得，但是除了蛋黃區之外，還有蛋白區。所以本席在這邊做一個考量，是不是能夠中央出資源、地方出土地？因為現在不管怎麼樣蛋白區的徵收，本來就會由桃園市政府照章來進行，大概也是在116、117年左右會有一個進度。那樣子的土地就不是像龍科擴大一樣要從頭開始去寫計畫，而是桃園市政府基本上把前面的土地徵收問題全部處理完之後，如果有好的產專園區的用地，是不是國科會這邊，中央跟地方可以合作開發，導引中央的政策優惠，然後讓這樣的土地可以符合國家對於科技產業發展的需求？國科會對這樣子概念的看法是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前我們對可能的土地都有做可行性評估，當然土地使用的成本各方面，所有其他的部分，包括周遭的環境都會納入考量。航空城這個部分，應該目前是有初步的評估嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：這段你講不清楚，對不起？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：航空城這個部分，我請我們局長稍微說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你再說明一下。"],["王局長永壯：航空城因為土地也比較貴啦！我們優先龍潭是因為龍潭一期、二期就在旁邊嘛，所以三期一起擴建對廠商來講群聚效應比較好一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有啦，我今天不是講要二選一的問題，因為你講缺地是全臺大家共同面對的問題，我認為這兩案其實是可以並行的，也不一定講說一定是台積電嘛！我們有這麼多不同的科技產業，大家講AI等等，其實未來有非常多科技產業有發展的需求，就配合各個產業用地區位的優勢，由中央來做主導、來做合理的安排。我想航空城用地可以被好好考慮，原因是地方政府已經在前面，它現在就已經開始幫你處理土地徵收的問題，它其實是相對速度更快，然後有一個很好的機會。某一些層面，只要中央願意出足夠的資源，我想桃園市政府應該也會樂觀其成。所以我要求國科會來做個超前部署，跟桃園市政府來做一下大體的討論，因為徵收到第二期的時候，大概也是差不多到116、117年，到時候會有更多的選擇、更多布局的空間，希望國科會把這個話聽進去，及早來做溝通跟安排，可以嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們會就整體產業的需求，因為最後要有產業需求的這個部分做整體評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，好，謝謝，副主委辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員，林副請回。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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那本席就要進到今天的第一個主題就是談桃園龍科三級擴大的這個後續這個看起來之前因為有一些政治的一些波瀾本席在那邊講得清楚一點我是反對政治介入也反對用這樣的題目來做政治宣傳但是該照章辦事還是要照章辦事嘛龍科的擴大案它有它區位上的優勢嘛對不對 這個國會不會反對嘛所以現在這個案子有沒有繼續再進行"},{"start":101.917,"end":107.127,"text":"持續在研究然後對他的範圍本身也在做檢討那細節是我可以請好簡單說明一下我們有些時間"},{"start":109.222,"end":131.488,"text":"這個案子仍然持續在推動我們目前積極跟當地居民溝通那跟市政府也有一定的常常密集的開會跟市政府現在運作、對接、討論還順利嗎?需不需要我們協助協調?應該不需要,因為已經開過三次工作會議順利就好,對不對?如果能夠順利地化解這些土地徵充的一些障礙,對不對?那台積電應該還是有機會回討議,對不對?"},{"start":134.807,"end":140.693,"text":"我們就提供好的環境然後看各個廠商都能來進駐副主委覺得有沒有機會"},{"start":142.466,"end":169.737,"text":"好的環境就有機會好的環境有機會對不對沒錯齁因為這個也不是我轟你們啦對不對這個你們在媒體受訪的時候應該也有很清楚嘛所以講說第一個因為抗爭一度所謂的放棄那其實只是誤解嘛對不對還是積極的在做溝通嘛不管是竹科管理局桃園市政府跟地方都在做希望可以把這個事情圓滿嘛可能會稍微縮小一點開發面積去剔除那個人口稠密跟百年老校的這個部分齁但是還是要做"},{"start":171.318,"end":191.329,"text":"因為他的區域條件其實是好的如果做得好 做得順利 可以按照軌道進行的話這個臺積電重新將榮科三期的擴建 列入1奈米新建的考量這也是你們國科會講的那現在進行的進度當然前面因為政治爭議 有一點點小耽擱那你下面有沒有預計的時間表比如說大概什麼時候取得完土地或怎麼樣"},{"start":191.869,"end":192.93,"text":"我們預計5月及7月各召開一場公聽會．9月報酬設計劃．明年起花兩年的時間．通過都計、環評等等．16年就可以來．"},{"start":208.889,"end":217.398,"text":"所以其實跟你本來預估的時間其實是沒有差對不對?你本來也是抓差不多116年的時候進入正式的土地徵收程序對嗎?當然嘛那過程中有經過溝通對那你前期溝通的完整的時候相對來講後期推動的阻礙就變小嘛所以還是照116年進入土地徵收的程序在進行對嗎?"},{"start":228.51,"end":243.33,"text":"好 這個我希望這個大家積極一點因為我想我剛剛講說中央出資的科學園區的模式其實是大家都喜歡的也可以符合你國科會做整體的產業科技布局是最符合這樣子的一個政策精神的所以希望就照章進行 好嗎好"},{"start":244.531,"end":269.009,"text":"那第二個本席也要藉這個機會來跟國科會來做討論就是說既然我們了解到這個產業園區跟科技園區其實都有缺地的問題那本席在這邊提個概念就我們桃園的航空城其實是有非常充沛的這樣子的一個土地資源那目前優先區就是蛋黃區的部分已經大致完成所謂的用地取得但是除了蛋黃區之外還有蛋白區"},{"start":269.85,"end":295.283,"text":"所以本席在這邊做一個考量是不是能夠用中央出資源地方出土地因為現在不管怎麼樣這個蛋白區的徵收本來就會由桃園市政府來照章來進行大概也是在116、117年左右會有一個進度那樣子的土地就不是像農科擴大一樣你要從頭開始去寫計畫而是桃園市政府基本上把前面的土地徵收問題全部處理完之後如果有好的產專園區的用地是不是"},{"start":295.883,"end":321.282,"text":"國科會這邊中央跟地方可以來合作開發導引中央的政策優惠然後讓這樣的土地可以符合國家對於科技產業發展的需求國科會對這樣的概念的看法是什麼目前我們對可能的土地都有做可行性評估那當然土地的這個使用的成本各方面所有其他的部分包括周遭的環境都會納入考量那航空工程這個部分應該目前是有初步的評估"},{"start":322.823,"end":342.231,"text":"這段講不清楚對不起我說航空城這個部分我請那個我們局長稍微說明一下好再說明一下航空城因為土地也比較貴啦齁那我們優先龍潭是因為龍潭一期二期就在旁邊嘛對三期一期擴建對廠商來講群聚效應比較好一點"},{"start":342.571,"end":366.395,"text":"沒有啦我今天不是講說要選二選一的問題因為你講缺地是全台大家共同面對的問題我認為這兩岸其實是可以並行的那也不一定講說一定是台積電嘛我們有這麼多不同的科技產業大家講說AI等等其實未來有非常多科技產業有發展的這個需求那就配合各個產業用地的區位的優勢啦由中央來做主導來做合理的安排"},{"start":366.915,"end":367.015,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":386.647,"end":386.707,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b720b3322f914086be63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab493fdf411f87c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:53:16 - 11:59:20","影片長度":"00:06:04","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":364,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:59:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:53:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時53分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，等我一下，我的投影片……"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我們先開始好了。針對我們這次的野保法修法，其實已經非常、非常久了，是102年之後的第一次嘛，我也知道林業署這幾年其實一直都在……今年應該是有做一些研析、也會有一些相關的座談會來做通盤檢討，但是我認為現在不能只有處理野保法，同時要一併地來考量所謂的動保法，主要來看這個定義上面，野生動物保育法第三條對於野生動物的定義是指說，一般狀況之下，應生存於棲息環境下的哺乳類等等；但是在動保法的第三條，它是說動物指犬、貓及其他人為飼養或管理的脊椎動物。我想要請問一下，右邊這個遊蕩犬，牠算是野保法管還是動保法管？"],["陳代理部長駿季：動保法。"],["張委員雅琳：可是牠是沒有人飼養的，在定義上牠是沒有人飼養的吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，但是牠是屬於貓、狗，犬、貓脊椎動物的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是像右邊的狐獴，牠到底算是野保法還是動保法的寵物呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果我們把牠當作寵物養，就是動保法；如果自然在野外的，就是一般的野保法來處理。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我覺得在定義上面其實有要再做修正的地方，我們來回到上一頁，你看它是指犬、貓及其他人為飼養的脊椎動物，但是剛剛那個犬、貓並不是人為飼養的啊！所以這個地方是不是要去做一些調整？我的想法是這樣子，我們動保法裡面並沒有包含無脊椎動物，可是我們現在有很多人飼養一些無脊椎動物當寵物，難道就要用野保法來管嗎？或者說現在大家養的這些特殊物種，牠到底該用動保法還是野保法來管？我覺得我們目前不能夠分別的來看待……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員雅琳：我們是不是可以在今年，我想請部長答應我這件事情，可不可以跟動保法一起來做調整呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，動保法其實我們也針對一些條例，包括您剛才所提到的一些疑義，我們也做了許多的座談會，但是他們有非常非常多不同的意見，我們現在正在綜整，也希望應該今年是一定可以把它送到行政院去，因為到行政院可能後續還有不同的利害關係人會去處理，所以我們在一年之內一定會送到行政院去。"],["張委員雅琳：動保法跟野保法會一併的來做檢討嗎？還是各自……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會調合，因為野保法這次修的主要是一些重要的……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，但是我們應該還有更多要通盤檢討的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們希望兩個法雖然同樣是農業部來管，但是兩個法一定要有個調合……"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒錯。"],["陳代理部長駿季：讓它的界限能夠更清楚。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以我們今年會來去做這件事情，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好。下一頁也一樣是衍生性的問題，就是我們飼養野生動物，現在是沒有做任何的有效識別；可是我找到日本的環境所，他們特定動物指的就是野生，還有一些特寵等等，他們都會要求在申請書上面要填寫這個動物識別的方式，也就會造成當這個動物遺失的時候，他們可以去辨別牠。可是我們現在並沒有做這樣的識別機制，不管是我們一般的飼養或是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：針對保育類的部分有，保育類的動物。"],["張委員雅琳：可是它沒有識別的機制，你看它上面是沒有任何識別的方式耶！"],["林署長華慶：現在有一些野生動物，牠如果可以註記，比如說用晶片……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我是說在我們的申請書上面沒有這個啦！我們沒有這樣的識別方式在。"],["林署長華慶：申請書上面，有一些縣市政府會依照不同的類別有，那我們現在也會針對申請書再來做檢討，因為委員之前也有關心過。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯，我關心這件事情，其實我想要瞭解的就是到底我們有沒有掌握現在特寵的數量跟種類啊？我不曉得現在這邊是不是有這些資料，是不是可以提供給我？因為我從4月8號索資到現在耶！都拿不到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，剛好我昨天開了寵物身分證的記者會，我們也公布了112年大概整個犬貓有279萬隻，其中有148萬隻是犬，131萬隻……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我關心的是特寵，因為犬、貓我們都有在做登記嘛！那特寵的部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：所謂的特寵就是犬貓。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我指的特寵是其他類型的動物，包含現在有人會養狐獴，會養所謂的浣熊，各式各樣的，象龜、水豚等等，這些我們是有在做登記的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：那個部分現在目前並沒有強制登記，但是……"],["張委員雅琳：那我們有做這樣的掌握嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我也跟委員報告，我們現在正在積極做寵物的分類管理，過去只是在犬的部分，然後到貓，其他包括委員剛才講的這些寵物，我們也會逐步的納入牠的登記系統。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我們現在沒有登記的手段，也沒有動物識別方法，我會擔心的是如果牠不是我們臺灣原生種，牠跑出去了，造成我們生態的浩劫，或者是牠今天明明是一個寵物，可是因為我們沒有登記、沒有照顧牠，結果牠被虐待了，牠的動物福利就消失了，所以我們必須儘快去做有關於寵物登記的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會積極……"],["張委員雅琳：因為現在寵物登記只有犬、貓，所以再麻煩部長積極的處理。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我今天的質詢先到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍、邱鎮軍、邱鎮軍委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員發言。","主席先宣告一下，我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.76784375,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.84346875,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.58159375,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.024093750000002,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.981593750000002,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.99846875,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.77471875,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.33971875,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.283468750000004,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.22284375000001,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.12909375000001,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.82096875,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.34409375,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.43659375,"end":79.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.36034375,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.72284375000001,"end":82.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.43971875000001,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.27034375000001,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.91971875,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.82659375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.20159375,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.36596875000001,"end":97.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.38284375,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.65284375,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.82971875000001,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.84659375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.90971875000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.52971875,"end":141.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.77409375,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.18721875,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.03409375,"end":168.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.40659375,"end":161.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.42346875,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.92909375000002,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.05534375000002,"end":171.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.06346875,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.78409375,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.31971875000002,"end":177.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.72034375,"end":188.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.60534375,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.79909375000003,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.71409375000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.72659375,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.07159375,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.41721875000002,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.73784375000002,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.61471875,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.42846875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":253.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.60346875000002,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.81846875000002,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.42534375,"end":266.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.71534375000005,"end":265.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.67284375,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":284.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.81971875,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.73471875,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.98221875,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.50096875,"end":290.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.47471875,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.83284375,"end":297.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.51159375000003,"end":299.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.18659375000004,"end":307.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.97971875,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.85221875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.50159375000004,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.49721875,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.56784375,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.94721875000005,"end":327.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","s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。"},{"start":206.118,"end":232.27,"text":"他們都會去要求在申請書上面要填寫這個動物識別的方式那也就會造成說當他這個動物溢失的時候他們可以去辨別他那可是我們現在是我們現在的並沒有做這樣子的一個識別的機制不管是對動物我們一般的飼養或是針對保育類的部分有保育類的上面有識別的機制你看上面是沒有任何的識別的方式欸"},{"start":233.87,"end":241.951,"text":"現在有一些野生動物他如果可以註記比如說用金幣等於說在我們的申請書上面沒有這個啦我們沒有這樣子的一個識別的方式在"},{"start":243.263,"end":270.788,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":271.428,"end":279.03,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．第十四條之一、第三十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":292.523,"end":293.423,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":320.032,"end":324.956,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":347.112,"end":351.217,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其其他條文修正草案案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"}]}},{"id":"151055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b4000f627185cf99f039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a61f8b52eb6acc6bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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正"},{"start":54.875,"end":79.154,"text":"這個要感謝那我們看國科會這個組織法第二條對於國家科學發展技術研究應用政策還有應用的計畫各方面所以國科會非常的重要這個第8條這邊也是特別提到"},{"start":80.595,"end":98.534,"text":"因應全球科技快速的發展然後怎麼樣去協助然後你們要聘用相關的這些各方面的人才所以給你們很大的空間這個可以用這個不用公務人員的資格就可以聘用所以要去善用"},{"start":102.636,"end":128.049,"text":"當然這個AI內閣在52年之後事實上本席針對原住民族的語言也特別提到這個AI族語AI技術的系統的研發而我本席在去年就開了兩次協調會所以未來如果人民會有需要或是這個需要你們的協助的話也請你們協助好很重要的這個"},{"start":131.369,"end":158.485,"text":"國科會過去比較少去這個被諮詢或是主動去參與我們看這個這一次的地震零四零三的地震發生然後這個整個交通我們就講這個北迴鐵路蘇花街蘇花公路"},{"start":160.202,"end":185.137,"text":"有這樣的一個狀況而我們這個蘇花改蘇花改是109年1月前線通車那這一次發生地震造成相關的這些有一些人的死亡或者是說這些造成交通的中斷主要是在"},{"start":188.141,"end":213.989,"text":"還沒有改善的蘇花公路還沒有改善的蘇花公路蘇花改基本上都OK沒有問題所以交通的建設透過科技的配合是可以解決交通的快速然後包括人員的安全但是常常會說到什麼呢"},{"start":215.956,"end":216.536,"text":"委員會委員會主席"},{"start":237.725,"end":260.169,"text":"蘇花改109年1月通車總共花了9年的時間施工從施工到通車花了9年我們看這個蘇花安現在還沒有蘇花改完成之後還有一部分是蘇花安因為它是分段"},{"start":263.597,"end":290.425,"text":"蘇花改基本上是先做了比較當時比較危險的地方比較危險的先做了也就是比較困難的先做了那蘇花改應該是比較容易蘇花案應該是比較容易的但是呢按照這個期程要花很長的時間要花11年如果按照這個期程的話要花11年"},{"start":292.762,"end":318.577,"text":"而且還會拖延今年2月20日環境部環評有意見還要補正比較容易的還有意見這個就是為什麼要在這邊質詢就是要請國科會要去協助環境部然後去說明也是協助"},{"start":320.822,"end":343.751,"text":"這個公路總局去說明要說服這些環評的人員和環評的這些委員真的是一個我們看北回鐵路這一次北回鐵路副主委包括我們國科會的所有的官員北回鐵路0403"},{"start":348.727,"end":362.315,"text":"發生事後前面檢查停止前面檢查凌晨檢查完畢OK 完全沒有問題北威鐵路喔都沒有問題喔北威鐵路什麼時候蓋的這麼早以前的你想想看1980年正式舉行通車"},{"start":378.757,"end":407.355,"text":"所以透過這樣的科技的發展是可以解決交通的問題而且是安全的不會受到任何風災地震的影響從過去到現在再怎麼樣的災害都沒有影響所以這個部分我們去講無效了但是國科會去跟環境部跟這些環評委員去講"},{"start":408.562,"end":425.721,"text":"會有效,可以嗎?是,我們會盡力配合其他客戶部會的需求提供技術方案。這個是很重要的,當初只有花6年喔!你現在看,1980年代啊!6年了!而且是最困難的,它是整條線喔!等於書啊,加書啊,改啊,整條線喔!"},{"start":431.397,"end":433.259,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw"}]}},{"id":"151054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b092b8c0beaa57cb7e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a62b2717c1df6d4f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:47:36 - 11:53:11","影片長度":"00:05:35","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":335,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:53:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:47:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":888,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時47分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好。上次其實見過部長，我們已經見過2次了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長對於動保法的修法跟野保法的部分有正面的一個回應，有關動保法跟野保法到目前為止我們都已經看到所謂的獸鋏部分是全面禁止的，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外你們在野保法的第二十一條跟第二十一條之一開了一個例外，對吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。目前我們看到山豬吊的部分還是依舊存在，山豬吊跟獸鋏目前在民間、在鄉鄰當中還是氾濫的，不管是野生動物也好、或者是一般的貓狗也好，其實大部分都會造成他們截肢、甚至於死亡，這個部分我在想，我們既然從過去到現在都已經講獸鋏或是山豬吊的部分是違法的，但在很多的平臺當中──看到右手邊這一塊，我們一查還是有看到山豬陷阱、高彈力鋼索等等，他們還在繼續販售！這個部分到底你們有沒有積極介入去取締？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在這次修法裡面獸鋏本身我們是全面禁止，後續關於這些平臺上的稽查，我們會更強烈去處理；委員這邊所提到山豬吊的部分，目前在靠近山區的這些農業地區還有原住民在狩獵的時候可能還是必須使用，那同一個時間點我們已經……"],["郭委員昱晴：這個是他們傳統式的山豬吊，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。但相對的山豬吊對於動物的殺傷力蠻高的，所以我們一直積極推動改良式的獵具，這樣的獵具如果能夠更大地推廣，相對就能夠取代山豬吊。剛才我們也承諾我們會針對改良式的獵具積極地推廣，然後再一段時間之後，因為在第十九條裡面有授權中央主管機關可以公告禁止另一種獵具，所以我們期待再1年的時間把改良式的獵具……"],["郭委員昱晴：1年？"],["陳代理部長駿季：1年的時間，然後我們就會禁止這個山豬吊。"],["郭委員昱晴：你們改良式的獵具是從109年開始推行的，對嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，2年了。"],["郭委員昱晴：已經2年了嗎？不止吧！這個是改良式的獵具嗎？"],["林署長華慶：對，兩年多前，那我們中間有再改良，現在是到2.0版，因為這個必須要給農民試用有效，大家才會……"],["郭委員昱晴：那目前試用率如何？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概將近三千七百多具，最主要山豬吊同樣是鋼索，但是鋼索的線徑跟口徑的大小會影響到動物被捕獲以後的受傷程度，所以我們改良式獵具裡面就針對它的線徑變粗。"],["郭委員昱晴：應該這麼講，目前有效的汰換率如何？就是已經有試用過這麼多了嘛，因為你們已經推2年了嘛，但問題是目前你們的汰換率如何？如果還是很消極的作法，其實傳統的山豬吊依舊存在！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員說明，用過的人都會覺得它好，但是相對我們的宣導要更積極，我們要更深入原民部落裡面，對那些部落長者做有效的宣導，那比較年輕的大概一看到這個，特別是在靠近山區的農民。"],["郭委員昱晴：他們願意試、願意汰換嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是免費的汰換，所以對於年輕的族群，特別是山區農民的汰換率就比較高，但是對於原住民──特別在一些深山部落的長者，他們可能不是那麼瞭解相關訊息，所以這部分我們要更積極地去處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我今天就是2個重點，第一，我們在市面當中依舊還是看到有所謂的山豬陷阱，這些陷阱的販賣依舊還是存在，那我們是不是一樣可以依照動保法第十四條之二，未經主管機關許可，其實任何人不得製造、販售以及陳列，甚至輸出這些所謂的金屬套具，這是第一個，我們一定要積極介入取締，甚至真的要有任何的刑罰都可以，這個是我這邊的要求！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，獵具處理完了以後，我們一定會從製造、販賣跟陳列，特別是電商平臺，這個部分我們會積極地去取締。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我一打出來、我隨便搜尋其實還是一大堆。","第二點，其實真的就是我剛剛所說的，既然你們也認為改良式比較人道、比較好、動物比較不容易受傷，那這個部分你們就積極地去推廣、積極地去汰換。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們不是不能讓第二十一條或是第二十一條之一開例外，但是就這個部分我們繼續努力，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案"},{"start":109.586,"end":133.844,"text":"我跟委員說明就是在這次修法裏面授甲本身我們是全面禁止那後續的這些平台上的稽查我們會更強烈去處理那委員這邊所提到的山豬釣的部分因為山豬釣目前在靠近山區的這些農業地區還有原住民在狩獵的時候他可能還是必須使用那同一個時間點這個是他們傳統式的山豬釣但是相對的就是山豬釣對於動物的殺傷力蠻高的"},{"start":135.945,"end":151.133,"text":"所以我們一直積極的推動改良式的這些列據那這樣的一個列據本身如果說能夠更大的推廣的時候那相對的就能夠取掉刪除掉那剛才我們也承諾就是說我們在改良式的這個列據裡面去積極的推廣"},{"start":153.194,"end":172.453,"text":"然後在一段時間因為在第十九條裡面有授權中央主管機關可以公告另外一種列具是被禁止的所以我們期待說在一年的時間把這個改良式的列具一年的時間然後我們就會把這個刪除掉做一個禁止我們改良式的列具是從109年開始推行的嗎?對兩年了已經兩年了嗎?不只吧?"},{"start":178.565,"end":187.432,"text":"對,兩年多前,那我們中間有再改良,現在是到2.0版,因為這個必須要給農民適用有效,大家才會... 那目前適用率如何?"},{"start":188.342,"end":213.675,"text":"我們大概將近3700多具那最主要是山豬釣同樣是鋼索但是鋼索的陷阱跟它的那個口徑的大小會影響到它的動物的這個被捕獲以後的那個受傷程度所以我們針對改良式的列具裡面就針對它的陷阱變粗應該這麼講目前有效的汰換率如何"},{"start":214.275,"end":242.671,"text":"就是已經有試用過這麼多了嘛因為我們已經推兩年了嘛但是問題是目前我們的汰換率如何如果還是很消極的做法其實傳統的山豬釣它依舊存在我跟委員說明就是用過的人都會覺得它好但是相對的就是說我們的宣導要更積極因為有些原民部落我們要更深入原民部落裡面讓那些部落的長者能夠做有效的那比較年輕的大概一看到這個特別是在山區的靠近山區的農民"},{"start":243.171,"end":264.148,"text":"他們願意試嗎?而且是免費的嘛。我們是免費的汰換喔。比較年輕的。所以說年輕的族群,特別是農民,三巡農民,他們汰換率就比較高。但是在原住民,特別在深山的一些部落的長者,他們可能訊息不是那麼了解。所以我們這部分我們要更積極的去處理。"},{"start":265.089,"end":288.99,"text":"其實我今天就是兩個重點第一我們在市面當中依舊還是看到有所謂的山豬山豬的陷阱他們這些陷阱的販賣依舊還在存在那我們是不是一樣可以依照所謂的動保法十四第二條十四之二條其實未經主管機關許可其實任何人是不得製造販售以及陳列甚至輸出這些所謂的金屬的套具這個是第一個我們一定要積極"},{"start":290.011,"end":292.214,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":305.029,"end":326.74,"text":"第十六條之一、第三十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"}]}},{"id":"151053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151053","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b59f5230d43ad237c039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a64040d5881116b2055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:37:22 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實際上來講的話 我們的原來的三期是到2028新的三期預計會到2031現在跟各部會在積極的溝通我們有關於相關的產業的推動 人才培育 還有國家發展等等之一些我們都會加速來進行溝通 那盡量加速來提到行政院 謝謝"},{"start":369.107,"end":386.42,"text":"那國科會從2018年11月我們就開始推動這個精準運科的研究專案的計畫那協助選手在國際賽事奪牌那我從奪牌的比率上來看台灣的表現確實十分亮眼我們在東京奧運只有68個選手參賽拿下了12名的獎牌那這個獲獎比率高達17.65%我們比日本澳洲都還高"},{"start":396.848,"end":418.389,"text":"這除了歸公體育署的黃金計畫以外我真的覺得運科的資源跟經濟功不可沒今年7月底8月初巴黎奧運即將登場我非常期待說我們的運科可以來協助我們的選手表現更上一層樓想要請教是說我們國科會跟"},{"start":419.83,"end":423.052,"text":"國科會有沒有跟運科中心的資訊來流通掌握到最新的情搜數據運用在科研上來協助本屆巴黎奧運選手"},{"start":440.081,"end":456.326,"text":"我想運科中心是非常重要我們的合作夥伴尤其是在正式成為一個鋼藥計畫的時候這個部分我們更積極了他成立了一個運科中心那我們也事實上積極的不管在資料跟技術的運用部分都有跟他那是不是可以講比較具體的一些項目"},{"start":457.946,"end":481.485,"text":"因為運科中心剛剛成立還在建制當中其實國科會的二期運科 一期運科已經有相當好的成績如果有人所知道的我們這邊的定位跟運科中心的定位是我們這邊是負責上游的一個科研運科是實際運用在運動員的身上我們這邊的科研成果除了運用在運動員身上之外還會往外延伸到全民這個是我們目前的布局"},{"start":482.205,"end":506.59,"text":"OK 那我想現在因為已經進行到第二期的這個精準運科研究專案計畫嘛那我們既然有拿到奧運的門票的項目可是有些卻沒有被納入這個研究項目像社籍啊 輕艇等等啊所以還要請教說那未來我們到底會不會擴大這個研究的項目那預計擴大到哪些項目那後續還會再規劃推動這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":509.352,"end":509.492,"text":"主席"},{"start":524.292,"end":533.495,"text":"那我想我們的這個台灣的科技確實是在世界上有目共睹那現在AI的運用在越來越豐富的狀況之下我覺得如果運用到運科上更直接的讓運動員甚至在有運動的社會大眾的這些百姓接觸到AI帶來的便利"},{"start":543.519,"end":568.512,"text":"所以我覺得本席很期待國科會能持續掌握運科這個科研然後跟產業界跟學界合作那讓運動科學成為台灣的驕傲好不好那我想最後再利用30秒的時間就是說我們強調一下我們AI的這個發展跟監管其實相當重要特別是監控管理的部分那所以我覺得怎麼"},{"start":569.272,"end":569.612,"text":"主席林宜瑾議員"},{"start":589.224,"end":590.164,"text":"臺灣政治自由不利的思維我想這個"},{"start":613.93,"end":614.831,"text":"這兩項都非常重要"},{"start":628.644,"end":628.864,"text":"再繼續加油,謝謝副主委"}]}},{"id":"151052","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b08867e4fe1d53e11e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd922d4e3181d0355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"11:39:46 - 11:47:27","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":461,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:47:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:39:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時39分）好，謝謝召委，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["高金委員素梅：部長好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：部落的狩獵我們是依據傳統文化的規範還有禁忌，延伸出來跟自然共存，還有永續利用的智慧，你應該同意這一點吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，非常同意。"],["高金委員素梅：對於林務署積極推動跟原住民共管山林資源，還有尊重、復振傳統原住民的狩獵文化，達到永續利用山林資源的方法，在這裡我敬表支持，也謝謝署長，謝謝。但是今天我有幾個修法的問題，我要跟部長來討論一下，第一個就是原住民首次違反規範的免罰制度，也就是野保法第五十一條之一，過去針對原住民如果誤觸本法規，我們會有首次違反不罰的機會，為什麼這次要刪除掉，請問一下部長？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這次有關於獸鋏的部分，我們是全面禁止。"],["高金委員素梅：好，獸鋏。"],["陳代理部長駿季：在全面禁止的部分，過去是在一般的動物裡面有首次不罰的部分，這次我們覺得整個獸鋏本身，因為在過往的動保法裡面就明列不可以了，事實上它連製造、販售都不可以，所以理論上來講，在市面上並不能有這樣子的獸鋏存在，我們趁著這次的機會，希望把野保法把獸鋏一併禁止；相對的，同一個時間點我們也希望用改良式的捕獲獵具，來取代獸鋏跟傳統的山豬吊。","剛才有部分委員質詢的時候，我們也承諾改良式的獸鋏在推廣的期限之內，大概在一年之內，我們才會去公告山豬吊的部分，但是因為獸鋏具有極大的殺傷力，這個殺傷力本身是可以用傳統的、替代的獵具取代，所以我們希望如果全面禁止的話，才能夠更積極地去推動改良式的獸鋏，如果我們有緩衝期的時候，大部分都會等到緩衝期過了以後，或者是首次不罰，等第二次以後再來處理，所以我們以整體的考量是希望同時全面禁止。"],["高金委員素梅：好，部長您知不知道，在110年跟原民會的會議裡面，原民會其實也希望你們不要把首次免罰的制度拿掉，你們怎麼看這件事情？"],["陳代理部長駿季：誠如我剛才講的，當有首次免罰，先不管是不是原住民，一般人如果有首次免罰，都有一些僥倖的心態，然後第二次再說。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我們現在談的是原住民，我們沒有講一般啊。"],["陳代理部長駿季：原住民的部分也是一樣，當有首次免罰的時候，他的僥倖心態就會延長，他這樣……"],["高金委員素梅：好，您剛剛講到的就是用鐵夾的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對、對！"],["高金委員素梅：可是您知不知道陽明山國家公園官網的說法跟農業部的見解不一樣，請問一下哪一個是錯誤的解讀？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們的……"],["高金委員素梅：陽明山國家公園所謂的鐵夾部分，跟農業部是不一樣的說法，是以你們為主嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個獸鋏的部分，我們是有定義的，在動保法裡面有很清楚的定義。"],["高金委員素梅：你看到陽明山國家公園了嗎？它說只要是齒狀型陷阱即為獸鋏；農業部是要具有強力彈簧，這兩個到底是誰對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們在後面的施行細則，我們會把它做一個更詳細的區分。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你說在說明細節裡面會講清楚……"],["陳代理部長駿季：施行細則會把它講清楚。"],["高金委員素梅：會講清楚，就不會有現在我給你看的這個，陽明山國家公園跟農業部不一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，兩個不一樣，是。"],["高金委員素梅：另外一個就是誤打保育類野生動物的舉證或減輕制度這部分，你們現在把刑責區分為保育類還有一般類，我是贊同這樣子實質化的處分，但是大部分的狩獵都是在夜間，這樣子的話有沒有可能會誤打，因為晚上看不清楚到底是保育還是一般類。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這部分我瞭解，在這個法修了以後其實我們有很多配套的狩獵辦法，現在規範的而且已經預告並跟原住民團體在溝通的就是，狩獵管理辦法裡面有一般的狩獵、自主狩獵、原住民自主狩獵，當達到原住民自主狩獵的時候，那就是由公部門跟原住民部落簽行政契約，後續的部分就是由原住民自己去管理、採事後的報備，當沒有事前申請哪一種一般野生動物或是保育類動，這個時候就不會如您所說的，會有晚上看不到打錯了、打到保育類而遭到……"],["高金委員素梅：部長清楚知道原住民的獵人嗎？還是署長比較清楚？"],["陳代理部長駿季：你說明一下。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。"],["林署長華慶：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：給我一點時間，謝謝，不好意思。"],["林署長華慶：我們在已經完成預告的原住民狩獵管理辦法裡面有針對不小心誤捕到保育類野生動物的話，他只要及時通報是沒有刑責的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我瞭解，就好像你們在2020年跟部落有建立黑熊通報系統一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：類似、類似。"],["高金委員素梅：來加強通報救傷、減少誤捕獵物的可能，所以會給我們狩獵者一個補救的機會，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這個部分就是部落裡面獵人非常擔憂的部分，事實上我們的獵人都喜歡永續，但是現在物種滅絕不要全部怪罪到原住民的獵人，我們原住民獵人夯不啷噹加起來可能才不到10萬人，可能也沒有那麼多，如果把整個臺灣的物種滅絕歸類或者無限上綱到原住民的獵人，我覺得這是非常不公平的一種說法！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我同意委員所說，這絕對不公平，因為保育類動物的滅絕有非常、非常多的原因。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝部長，我們要做的是如何把原住民傳統山林狩獵的智慧留下來，然後讓我們的獵人做第一線保育的工作者。"],["陳代理部長駿季：這是我們的目標。"],["高金委員素梅：而不是用這些所謂法西斯的保育動物思考模式來強加到原住民族身上，這是非常不公平的！本席身為一個原住民立法委員，必須要呼籲這些朋友、希望他們能夠理解，不要把所有罪過都放在原住民族獵人身上，包括如果今天有崩塌，就說原住民在山林濫砍、濫伐，這樣子的錯誤觀念我們是沒有辦法承受的，好嗎？謝謝部長、署長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：以我個人來講，我也認同委員的看法，絕對不能把所有的責任都怪罪在原住民。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，我們應該是要共享，然後共同來保護這塊山林跟永續，對吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是！"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。待會兒我會提出過渡條款的修正動議來保障利害關係人的權利，我也希望大家能夠支持，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝高金素梅委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","請郭昱晴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.51096875,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.738468750000003,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.82159375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.88909375,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.785968750000002,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.82659375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.93159375,"end":84.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.54284375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.71159375,"end":72.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.55784375,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.32034375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.47221875000001,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.22659375,"end":98.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.11846875,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.13534375,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.45596875000001,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.86409375000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.69909375,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.15846875,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.17471875,"end":133.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.20346875,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.74909375000001,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.01909375,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.93721875,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.78846875000002,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.34096875,"end":187.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.83721875,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.64284375000003,"end":196.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.62909375,"end":207.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.76784375000003,"end":200.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.45846875,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.54284375,"end":213.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.24659375000002,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.71471875,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.92909375000002,"end":231.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.78034375000001,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.07096875000002,"end":230.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.13409375,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.29846875,"end":232.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.62721875000003,"end":239.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.97284375,"end":238.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.53784375,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.22971875000002,"end":245.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.50784375,"end":245.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.86596875,"end":261.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.15534375000004,"end":257.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.49221875,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.16721875,"end":264.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.64346875,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.59659375,"end":307.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.26034375,"end":287.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.43659375000004,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.88159375000004,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.52221875000004,"end":316.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.61846875000003,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.08659375,"end":321.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.20471875000004,"end":319.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.92596875000004,"end":321.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.36471875,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.13659375000003,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":329.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.02096875,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.09596875,"end":341.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.22659375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.90096875,"end":346.22159375},{"speake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條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":144.133,"end":146.234,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例的修正草案 條例的修正草案 條例的修正草案"},{"start":157.146,"end":174.333,"text":"同時全面禁止。您知不知道在110年的時候跟原民會的會議裡面,原民會其實也希望你們不要把首次免罰的制度拿掉。你們怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":175.013,"end":176.573,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":195.878,"end":219.213,"text":"所以您剛剛講到的就是用鐵匣的這個部分可是您知不知道陽明山國家公園官網的說法跟農業部的見解不一樣請問一下哪一個是錯誤的解讀陽明山國家公園所謂的鐵匣的部分跟我們的這個農委會是不一樣的說法我想我們的整個獸匣的部分我們是有定義的很清楚的定義在動保法裡面有清楚的定義"},{"start":219.963,"end":238.778,"text":"你看到陽明山國家公園了嗎?他說只要是此狀的陷阱即為售假然後農業部是你們現在具有強力彈簧到底這兩個到底是誰?我們在後面的實行細節我們會把它做一個更詳細的區分所以你說在說明細節實行細則你們會講清楚會把它講清楚就不會有現在我給你看的這個陽明山國家公園跟農業部不一樣"},{"start":246.463,"end":263.253,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":275.52,"end":293.723,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":302.665,"end":318.407,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":319.148,"end":337.756,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":337.756,"end":339.837,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":354.707,"end":380.431,"text":"其實事實上我們的獵人都喜歡是永續的但是現在物種的滅絕不要把它全部怪罪到原住民的獵人而是我們原住民獵人夯噗隆咚加起來可能才不到十萬人也可能也沒有那麼多整個台灣的物種的滅絕把它歸類或者是無限上綱到原住民的獵人"},{"start":380.911,"end":398.326,"text":"我覺得這是非常不公平的一種說法。」我同意委員說這絕對是不公平因為保育類的動物的一個滅絕它有非常非常多的原因謝謝部長我們要做的是如何把原住民傳統山林狩獵的智慧留下來"},{"start":399.287,"end":420.648,"text":"然後讓我們的獵人做第一線保育的工作者而不是用所謂的這些法西斯的保育動物的思考模式來強加造原住民族的身上這是非常不公平的本席身為一個原住民的立法委員必須要跟這些朋友希望他們能夠理解"},{"start":423.01,"end":447.636,"text":"不要都把所有的罪過放在原住民族獵人的身上,包括如果今天有崩塌,就是說原住民在山林濫砍濫伐,這樣子的錯誤觀念我們是沒有辦法承受的。」我想以我個人來講,我也是認同那個委員的一個看法,絕對不能把所有的責任都怪罪在原住民。我們應該是要共享,然後共同來保護這塊山林,跟"},{"start":449.156,"end":451.42,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,並保障利害關係人的權利。」"}]}},{"id":"151051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b4134f726f68a5cb6e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a60782f81b66ae16015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:29:27 - 11:39:40","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":613,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:39:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:29:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我們2022年開始從日本專案進口雞蛋，農委會相關的報告在2022年的時候其實有揭露，我在2月20日開始發文向農業部以及中央畜產會調2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額、採購數量和金額，還有跟哪些廠商採購，但是我從2月20日發文到今天為止，沒有得到我需要的資訊。在農業部回函給我的公文當中，3月21日說沒有簽訂採購合約；3月25日說部分係以合約執行，所以到底哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個，我先跟委員致歉，因為整個雞蛋的執行是由中央畜產會執行的，我們在第一時間……"],["黃委員國昌：中央畜產會的董事長現在是哪位？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在的董事長是由我們的杜文珍次長當代理董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們兩位的溝通應該沒那麼困難吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們第一時間去問中央畜產會的時候，它回給我們的說明是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是你們的次長搞錯，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想應該是在承辦，因為在整個雞蛋調度的過程中，我們本身也做了一些內部行政的查核，在這過程中，因為承辦人……"],["黃委員國昌：所以查了半天以後就搞錯，是這樣嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：後面的才是對的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續看。2022年日本專案進口雞蛋到底進了幾櫃？你們給我的回文是211櫃，但是我看去年畜產會的決算書是192櫃，哪一個數字才是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這要分兩個部分，在111年的時候，當時還沒有開專案進口，是美國、日本及澳洲的部分，回文給你的部分可能是針對日本的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：你看畜產會的決算書，日本後面寫幾櫃？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它這邊寫192。"],["黃委員國昌：你回文給我的寫幾櫃？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211，111年的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211是包括美國和澳洲的部分，192是日本的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下，111年中央畜產會以自有資金委託貿易商代理自日本專案進口雞蛋計211櫃，寫的是日本，跟你剛剛講的不一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：很抱歉！我剛才也說過了，我們第一時間在回的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：所以哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211是包括日本和澳洲的部分，這才是對的。"],["黃委員國昌：你的公文上面不是這樣寫的啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：192是日本，我們現在確定的版本是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長看右手邊3月1日的農業部回函，白紙黑字沒有那麼難閱讀，中央畜產會以自有資金委託貿易商自日本專案進口雞蛋計211櫃，你今天告訴我這個描述是錯誤的，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：根據我們現在最新得到的訊息，這個是錯的。"],["黃委員國昌：這是兩年前的事情了，我跟你們索資整整超過了1個多月，到現在連這麼粗略的資訊都可以搞錯，中央畜產會是螺絲掉光了嗎？如果211櫃是對的，你們去年那個決算書內容不就虛偽不實，我有說錯嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想在數據、在資訊上面，中央畜產會的承辦人在第一時間提供的資料可能是有誤的，所以也導致我們在回函的時候可能有些誤差，這個部分我想是行政的疏失……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問你嘛！中央畜產會是不是螺絲掉光了嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我也跟委員報告，我們在做整個專案進口雞蛋的查核，的確畜產會在執行面上有一些必須要去改進的空間，我們也針對他們檢討……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！我們進入下一個問題，我一直問，你們2022年從日本進口雞蛋，專案進口廠商有哪幾家，結果你們回復我說這是商業機密，請問這是什麼商業機密？我們用納稅人的錢去買雞蛋，我問跟哪一些貿易商進口，不能夠講，在遮掩什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們絕對不是遮掩，因為相關的這些進口專案合約並不是農業部訂的，是由畜產會跟貿易商訂的，以他們合約的部分列有相關的保密條款，如果……"],["黃委員國昌：來，它的保密條款是怎麼寫的？2023年我們可以公告進口雞蛋的廠商，這是2023年嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對！"],["黃委員國昌：全部都公告了嘛！哪一家廠商、進了多少蛋、多少錢，這個是國民有權力知道的，這也絕對是國會應該監督的，你們2023年可以公告，結果2022年現在是涉及到什麼，跟哪一個廠商買是涉及到國家機密喔？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在2023年一開始的時候，我們也沒有同意，我們是一直跟廠商溝通，得到合約雙方同意以後我們才公告的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你保密條款，你說2023年也沒有同意，來、來、來，看一下，2023年你們的進口雞蛋合約長這樣，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這是你們公布的嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是雙方，他們同意，我們才公告的。"],["黃委員國昌：是！沒有錯、沒有錯，你一直在講有保密條款，按照你們公開的合約，請問保密條款寫在哪裡？請問保密條款寫在哪裡？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所瞭解、我所掌握的訊息，當初的合約，在2023年不管它有沒有列保密條款，一定要經……"],["黃委員國昌：本身就是機密。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，就要經過雙方同意才能夠公開。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！如果有這個合約的規範，我就問你寫在哪裡嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為我問過法制，就算合約裡面沒有寫的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：然後那個契約本身是秘密。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，它要雙方同意以後才能夠公開。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在在問你，當契約裡面有保密條款，我是念法律的人，我在契約裡面的保密條款就找了半天，到底寫什麼嘛？來，你把你現在手上的保密條款唸給大家聽，怎麼寫的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：乙方因本件買賣而知悉甲方營業上或標示物上之資訊、情報、計畫、機密或其他相關……"],["黃委員國昌：誰是乙方？"],["陳代理部長駿季：乙方就是廠商，廠商是乙方。"],["黃委員國昌：誰負有保密義務？"],["陳代理部長駿季：甲方。"],["黃委員國昌：甲方？再唸一次！乙方因本件買賣知悉甲方的情報，不可以洩漏，誰負有保密義務？明明是乙方負有保密義務，你站在國會裡面胡扯喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我沒有胡扯，我跟委員報告，就是我所知道的，因為我不是學法律的，但是從我們法務人員給我的訊息就是，合約不管有沒有寫保密的條款，合約要公開的時候，一定要雙方都同意才能夠公開，所以在2023年……"],["黃委員國昌：誰告訴你的？這個就是我的問題嘛！合約不管有沒有保密條款，公開的時候要兩方都同意？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我可不可以請我們的法務回答？"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了，我尊重主席，你要回答也可以，請。"],["吳處長芙蓉：報告委員，我們行政機關要提供資料出去，原則上要適用政府資訊公開法，所以政府資訊公開法第十八條的規定有寫：政府資訊屬於下列各款情形之一者，應限制公開或不予提供之。委員您看一下第十八條，有關於第十八條第七款的部分，就是有關於法人或團體營業上秘密或經營事業有關之資訊，其公開或提供有侵害法人的權利、競爭地位或其他正當利益者，基本上……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題就來啦！政府資訊公開法絕對不是按照你這樣解釋的，公開這個合約是侵害到那個法人什麼營業秘密啊！你站在國會上面鬼扯喔！"],["主席：黃委員、黃委員，請息怒，因為我們今天討論的是動保法、野保法，所以可能相關的資訊準備的不是那麼充足，是不是能夠讓他們再來跟黃委員報告，好不好？因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢答……"],["黃委員國昌：可以啊！主席裁示了，我等了一個多月，終於有機會質詢你們，到現在還在胡扯，用政府資訊公開法，前面說有保密條款，被我抓出來以後根本沒有，現在改扯政府資訊公開法。"],["主席：是不是讓他們會後再跟您報告，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好！"],["主席：因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢答，時間也不早了，謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案。"},{"start":232.335,"end":257.41,"text":"中央訊產會以自有基金委託貿易商自日本專案進口雞蛋計211棍。」所以你今天告訴我 這個描述是錯誤的 是嗎?根據我們現在最新得到的訊息 這個是錯的這是兩年前的事情了我跟你們所知整整超過了一個多月到我現在連這麼粗略的資訊都可以搞錯"},{"start":260.441,"end":270.39,"text":"中訓場會是螺絲掉光了嗎?如果211是對的那你們去年那個決算書內容不就虛偽不實?我有說錯嗎?"},{"start":277.486,"end":278.987,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":298.558,"end":303.919,"text":"條文修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責"},{"start":318.724,"end":345.358,"text":"結果你們回復我說這是商業機密請問這是什麼商業機密我們用納稅人的錢去買雞蛋我說跟哪一些貿易商計不能夠講在遮掩什麼不過我想我們絕對不是遮掩因為相關的這些進口專案合約因為並不是農業部訂的是由續產委跟貿易商訂的那以他們的合約的部分他們列有相關的保密條款來他保密條款是怎麼寫的"},{"start":348.46,"end":364.315,"text":"2023年我們可以公告進口雞蛋的廠商這是2023年了嘛全部都公告了嘛哪一家廠商進了多少蛋多少錢這個是國民有權利知道的這絕對是國會應該監督的"},{"start":366.457,"end":393.974,"text":"你們2023年可以公告結果2022年現在是涉及到什麼跟哪一個廠商買是涉及到國家機密喔我跟委員說明喔在2023年的時候一開始的時候我們也沒有同意那我們是一直跟廠商溝通得到雙方合約雙方同意以後我們才公告的所以我問你保密條款你說你2023年也沒有同意來來來看一下看一下2023年你們的進口雞蛋合約漲降對不對"},{"start":396.36,"end":411.854,"text":"對阿這個是你們公布的嘛是雙方他們同意我們才公告的是沒有錯好沒有錯是你一直在講嘛說有保密條款嘛是按照你們公開的合約請問保密條款寫在哪裡請問保密條款寫在哪裡"},{"start":414.211,"end":441.59,"text":"我所瞭解我所掌握的訊息當初本身的合約不管他有沒有列保在2023年齁不管他有沒有列保密條款一定要經沒有就要經過雙方同意才能夠公開對嘛你如果有這個合約的規範我就問你寫在哪裡嗎就算因為我問過法治齁就算合約裡面沒有寫的時候然後那個契約本身是秘密不是他要雙方同意以後才能夠公開我現在在問你齁說"},{"start":443.591,"end":472.453,"text":"當契約裡面有保密條款我是唸法律的人啊我契約裡面的保密條款就找了半天到底寫什麼嘛來你把你現在手上的保密條款唸給大家聽怎麼寫的以方因本件買賣而窒息甲方營業上或標示上物的資訊、情報、計畫、機密等其他相關誰是以方以方就是廠商廠商是以方誰負有保密義務"},{"start":475.096,"end":484.841,"text":"假方 再念一次以方應本件買賣知悉假方的情報不可以洩漏誰負有保命義務"},{"start":487.538,"end":503.196,"text":"明明是以防復的保密業務!你站在國會裡面胡扯喔!我沒有胡扯我跟委員報告齁就是我所知道因為我不是學法律但是從法務我們的法務人員給我的訊息就是合約不管有沒有寫保密的一個條款"},{"start":505.06,"end":506.562,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":520.185,"end":540.097,"text":"主席站起來了我尊重主席你要回答也可以請報告委員我們行政機關要提供資料出去原則上要適用政府資訊公開法所以政府資訊公開法的第18條的規定有寫說政府資訊屬於下列情形之一者應限制公開或不予提供之"},{"start":541.318,"end":563.956,"text":"條文修正草案案的第十八條的第七款的部分,就是有關於法人或團體營業上的秘密或經營事業有關的資訊,它的公開或提供有侵害法人的權利或競爭地位或是其他的案例。我現在的問題就來了,政府之音公開法絕對不是按照你這樣解釋的。"},{"start":565.637,"end":592.283,"text":"公開這個合約是侵害到那個法人什麼營業秘密啊你站在國會上面鬼扯喔黃委員黃委員請息怒因為我們今天討論的是動保法野保法所以可能相關的資訊準備的不是那麼充足是不是能夠讓他們再來跟黃委員報告好不好那因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢問主席查一次了我等了一個多月終於有機會資訊你們"},{"start":593.888,"end":603,"text":"到現在還在胡扯用政府資訊公開法前面說有保命條款被我抓出來以後根本沒有現在改扯政府資訊公開法"}]}},{"id":"151050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b0cfa2b597f1b2b4b039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6f179d27bb990d5d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:26:41 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11:37:04","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":623,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:37:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:26:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":888,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時26分）謝謝召委，有請林副主委跟災防中心的陳主任。"],["主席：好，請林副主委、陳主任。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員好。"],["范委員雲：副主委早安。因為我想我們面對強震，國科會如何協助科技防災是我今天想問的主題，因為我自己其實也做過莫拉克風災災後重建的研究，當時也感謝國科會的計畫支持，所以跟國際學者我們發表了至少有3篇的英文期刊論文，所以後來我就在想其實國科會下面有很多相關的研究，我們如何能夠在執行面上更協助我們國家從防災到重建的部分，至少我覺得當時的研究成果好像並沒有機會，就是純學術的內容，沒有機會能夠貢獻在我們的重建執行面中，就瞭解，不知道經歷過這個震災，副主委有沒有想到從你們現在所做的事情中，還有哪些可以加強的？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前其實在傳統上，防災這件事情確實是一個比較科技跟技術的問題，事實上在韌性防災這個概念，整個社會的支持網絡、各方面在防災、救災的部分是扮演很重要的角色，所以事實上我們現在有一個韌性防災的專案計畫，裡面也有很多跨領域的人一起來合作，所以這個部分我們會朝這個方向，在我們的災防中心其實也有調適跟各方面，也就是說不是只有在做技術本身的調適，也在很多社會人文的部分做支持。"],["范委員雲：至少我就莫拉克風災後檢視過我們社會學界，幾乎很少做相關的研究，在之前啦！當然那一波有一些做了，我想不管是重建或是防災，國科會的角色還可以加強什麼，這也許是副主委可以思考的，好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們回去……"],["范委員雲：因為這次發生在花蓮，國際上稱讚說我們很有韌性，可是以我過去服務花蓮4年，有一部分是因為花蓮真的常常遇到震災，所以他們相對的準備，加上地廣人稀，就是相對來講災情……雖然還是非常遺憾有13人罹難，然後一千多人受傷，可是如果發生在其他的地方，我覺得可能就……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：就非常嚴重。"],["范委員雲：所以國科會有沒有辦法準備得更好，是今天我想請副主委想的，當然我有看到你們其實在去年有啟動一個災害防救韌性的科技方案，是3年的計畫，有好幾個課題，我覺得第一個災防數位轉型，這部分非常好，還有風險的評估，還有城鄉防災的韌性。所以針對這幾個部分，我想問一個問題，因為這次很多人抱怨說警報沒有收到，然後後來我們的氣象署是告訴大家說因為預期沒有達到標準，是低估了，那這個部分，我知道你們的災害防救中心也有在協助氣象署，可是我們看了一下，這其實符合了你們的PWS的警報發布標準，不知道在你們的協助下，為什麼我們一般的民眾所得到的氣象署資訊還是沒有警報呢？這部分不知道副主委或者是主任有沒有答案？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們請主任說明一下。"],["范委員雲：好，我們請主任說明一下。"],["陳主任宏宇：范委員好，我想PWS它是由各個主責機關，剛剛您提到的氣象署，依照我們在2021年5月1號的規定，也就是規模5、震度4它會發布，當然有很多地方很可能很多民眾有很多抱怨他怎麼會沒有收到。"],["范委員雲：為什麼會低估？"],["陳主任宏宇：它在預估的模式裡頭，很可能某些地方，它需要精進的地方……"],["范委員雲：所以這部分是氣象署嗎？你們沒有辦法再協助他們更精進這個預測嗎？"],["陳主任宏宇：當然大家有一起討論，我會提供一些意見給他們。"],["范委員雲：當然我想這是一個跨部會，但是我們認為國科會下面應該是要有我們全國最優秀的相關的地震預測。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：如果它是一個科技估算的問題的話，我想國科會可以更積極跟他們合作，好不好？這個部分。"],["范委員雲：好啊！那也希望副主委關心這個問題，加強我們相關的研究資源跟能量，因為我們這個警報系統是好的，可是預測低估就非常地可惜，好不好？這是第一件事，我想你們既然說有在協助各部會做預測的工作，尤其是災害防救中心就是做這個，所以這應該要強化。第二個部分，假消息，我因為要質詢你們就訂閱了你們的官方LINE帳號，我覺得這帳號其實做得非常好，可是我覺得很遺憾，我之前也不知道可以訂閱，而且你們的網站設計有點難，我找了半天才知道怎麼訂閱，是助理跟我講訂閱，這裡面我去訂閱了臺北跟新北的相關訊息，包含停班停課，我想先問，也許副主委不知道，主任可以回應，當天像新北市那個假訊息，如果訂閱你們新北的停班停課會收到嗎？會收到什麼結果？"],["陳主任宏宇：我想如果主責單位也就是新北市政府沒有發布這個訊息，我們不會發布。"],["范委員雲：所以你們並沒有發布？"],["陳主任宏宇：我們並沒有發布。"],["范委員雲：我覺得這樣非常好，至少如果訂閱你們的就不會誤解，因為我們辦公室有助理差點路上要回家了，因為在路上看到新北停班停課，的確有新北來上班嘛！那我想的是說這邊是不是可以考慮再加一個假訊息啊？當然這是你們的專業，你們可以評估一下，因為我這邊有show出說其實這非常好，有這麼多可以訂閱，包含臺鐵的事故、停班停課，像我就訂閱地震跟停班停課，臺北市跟新北的訊息，這邊如果能夠有個假訊息的話，我覺得會更集中，因為像我們假訊息，我也訂閱了政府的假訊息的部分，如果能夠整合在防災的假訊息中，你們可以考慮一下你們的app要不要加這個部分，好嗎？"],["陳主任宏宇：非常謝謝委員的建議，我們來考慮一下，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：另外我也覺得你們的app做得不錯，可是宣傳得不夠廣，從你們的網站要到訂閱中間沒有那麼清楚，請問一下你知不知道你們這個app有多少人訂閱呢？"],["陳主任宏宇：158萬，到目前為止。"],["范委員雲：所以占我們人口的百分之多少？"],["陳主任宏宇：我想LINE是一家公司，它提供給我們的是一個公益的帳號，免費的。"],["范委員雲：158萬，我們可不可以測試一下，我們現場有訂閱國家災害防救科技中心LINE的舉手好嗎？不錯耶！我們召委好厲害，召委有訂閱，所以我們現場這麼多資訊充分的人都還沒訂閱，是不是可以再推廣一下？"],["陳主任宏宇：好。"],["范委員雲：我覺得介面還可以再思考怎麼改善，譬如我想要讓我的家人訂閱，但分享的東西都設計得不是非常清楚，相比於我們訂閱其他的，其實還可以更好一點，好不好？"],["陳主任宏宇：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：因為我想它會是一個非常好的防災精確訊息，而且有很多的選項，這是好事，但可以做得更好。再來，假訊息我剛剛問了。","最後我也想問偏鄉的部分，因為我非常關心花蓮，雖然我現在服務的是桃園的南邊，這次包含西寶國小因為路斷了，所以在那邊等很久，也包含在酒店服務、實習的高三生悲劇，我在想既然你們計畫中有一個偏鄉災防跟重建的部分，不知道是副主委可以回答還是主任可以回答，可不可以告訴我們這方面國科會的協助策略？目前能做的是什麼？有沒有什麼改善的空間？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：整體的偏鄉災防，我舉一個比較具體的例子，比如地震的偵測器本身，我們已經在前幾年由地震中心直接在比較偏鄉、比較小的東岸中小學學校做設定，因為它必須要快速，學校如果有學生上課的時候要丟出來，所以就災防的部分，我們會針對特殊的需求去做科技的支援，所以它是……"],["范委員雲：所以是全國都有嗎？花蓮也有？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：它是針對比較特別的需要、比較危險的地方，因為花蓮本身地震非常多，也許地震中心有些資料可以提供給委員，這是一個部分。"],["范委員雲：好啊！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：重建的策略我們當然是配合整個行政院來做，看看在技術上或者是在其他的科研部分是不是可以去配合。"],["范委員雲：我想這次花蓮是一個很好的警訊，因為他們已經是相對比較有韌性的一個地區，但還是發生一些不幸的事情，然後有國小本身就是在一個非常脆弱的地點，是不是可以請副主委督導防災中心還是你們相關的計畫去瞭解一下在偏鄉的防災跟重建策略上，目前你們所做的事情還有什麼可以精進的？好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒問題。我們就既有計畫，針對今天這個案子看看能不能有哪些可以改善。"],["范委員雲：對，我想國科會就是從國家的角度希望提升我們的科技研究，對整個國家發展提供協助，這兩點是不是請副主委責成防災中心還是其他部門在多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個初步報告？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：兩個禮拜。"],["范委員雲：好，兩個禮拜，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：整個重建策略需要稍微跟其他的計畫溝通，如果能夠一個月是比較好。"],["范委員雲：沒關係，就一個月，好不好？謝謝副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。"],["主席（范委員雲代）：我們請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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趙偉有訂閱所以我們現場這麼多資訊充分的人都還沒訂閱是不是可以再推廣一下那當然我覺得介面還可以再去思考怎麼改善比如說我想要讓我的家人訂閱然後分享的東西都設計得不是非常的清楚相比一下我們訂閱其他的其實還可以更好一點好不好"},{"start":457.222,"end":458.183,"text":"我非常關心花蓮雖然我現在服務的是桃園的南邊我想看到這次包含有西寶國小"},{"start":479.637,"end":480.158,"text":"有什麼改善的空間?"},{"start":508.921,"end":534.933,"text":"我想整體的偏鄉災防我舉一個比較具體的例子就是比如說這個地震的這個偵測器本身我們已經在前幾年有地震中心直接在比較偏鄉比較小就是東岸本身的學校那中小學的學校就設定因為他必須要在快速之間學校如果學生上課的時候要丟出來所以就災防的部分我們會針對特殊的需求去做科技的資源這個部分"},{"start":535.293,"end":557.177,"text":"所以是全國都有嗎?花蓮也有?它是針對比較特別的就是說它需要這是比較危險的地方因為花蓮本身它是地震非常高這地震中心也許沒關係我們下也許有些資料可以提供給委員這是一個部分那整個重建的策略我們當然是配合整個行政院來做看看在技術上或者是在其他的科研的部分是不是可以去配合"},{"start":557.717,"end":557.757,"text":"是,沒問題"},{"start":584.209,"end":586.011,"text":"這兩點部分是不是請副主委責成還是房貸中心還是其他的部門那在多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告好嗎"},{"start":608.288,"end":608.388,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b0ef4f24c86589f41039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a62925ffb17d10bc285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"11:15:55 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11:26:40","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":645,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:26:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:15:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":835,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時15分）謝謝召委，我們請一下林副主委。"],["主席：有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員早安。"],["萬委員美玲：副主委好，整個早上大家都非常關心今天派你在這裡代打，第一個，本席覺得你對主委真的是不太關心，包括他去行政院院會、今天不能來，行政院院會是一個非常重要的會議，據我們委員會去瞭解，今天行政院院會並沒有國科會相關的業務，或者如果現在是有的，那就顯然相當重要，為什麼你會不知道主委去行政院院會開的內容是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我知道他去行政院院會，但是我這幾天非常認真準備要到教文會來，所以也許有所疏失。"],["萬委員美玲：你這個答案勉強算給你得分，代表你都非常認真，但你真的還是要關心一下主委，主委職掌國科會這段時間我覺得他表現得不錯，每次來教文會答詢的時候，我想教文會的委員對他也是滿肯定的，這段時間我們要關心他呀，他會不會是現在心情不好？還是在平復當中？又或者是充滿精神、朝氣、活力，要準備到下一個部會去？又或者是說他現在是非常平淡，準備不如歸去了？我覺得大家共事這麼久，你要關心他呀！你不能只關心你自己來這邊備詢的狀況好不好，你覺得本席這樣說，你能不能接受？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我可以接受，我回去會特別關心我們主委。"],["萬委員美玲：你會不會改進啊？要關心他一下好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我會改進，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：他的心情如何我們非常關心，為什麼……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：關於他的心情，就目前我的理解還是非常積極在做他現在應該要做的事情。"],["萬委員美玲：對，為什麼要關心他？一方面當然是他過去的表現很好，我們也希望他將來有好的出路，但不論如何，雖然國科會目前是處於一種主官動盪的狀態，但底下的團隊還是要照表操課，該做的事情還是要把它做完。在這一波的人事當中，有人說他應該是不會留任，也有人說他希望留任下來，但是我們現在看起來好像報導上指出有一個成大的副校長叫做郭耀煌，他出任的機會是最大的，您跟他熟識嗎？你覺得他適任嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：認識，在學界上都認識，至於適不適任，這的確不是我現在可以回答的。"],["萬委員美玲：如果他來帶領整個團隊上下可以接受嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想在學界、科技界裡面，我們一般來講都有很好的溝通，有時候政策推動絕對不是單一的人，主委花很多時間去進行各界的溝通，所以我想政策本身的延續性應該是有一定的。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，政策是延續性的，我覺得這點很棒。但是副主委，我想你應該知道，其實國科會的業務是相當繁重的，不管是現在有青創方案正在進行，或者AI基本法，還有AI的運用、太空產業發展等等，非常的多，所以我們也希望雖然主官在動盪，但我們的心要穩住，然後該做的工作要把它做好。","接下來跟您討論太空產業發展的重要性，吳政忠主委曾經說過國家發射場要在今年年底選定，大概不外乎都是說會落腳在屏東或者是臺東，由於使用年限一訂下去之後非常的長，不管是地理、物理或是環境影響都要做全面的考量，同時也要具備未來的擴充性，所以談了這麼久，現在到底會在屏東還是臺東？與地方溝通的情形，這兩個地方有沒有進展？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：事實上在2月6號我們已經召開第一次審查會，針對條件評估，就如同剛剛委員講的，還有很多複雜的地方，比如說在地本身也要做一些溝通……"],["萬委員美玲：所以現在還沒有確定？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們現在還沒有最後確定，但事實上有一些就跟主委上次講的一樣，那個空間跟物理的限制，大概就在這兩個地方。"],["萬委員美玲：意思是說，跟屏東、臺東都有並行的進行溝通，是這樣嗎？"],["陳處長國樑：對，第一階段來講的話，就是發射場的條件在2月6號已經通過，但是現在還需要跟地方進行溝通，在物理條件上面以臺灣的東南可能性最大。"],["萬委員美玲：副主委，這個溝通其實也是溝通很久了，因為今天時間有限，本席希望在會議之後您能來說明一下為什麼溝通了這麼久，到底遇到了什麼困難？你剛剛所說的這些要點我們都知道，不會叫你貿然決定，但是你們溝通也很久了，所以會後我想請你來進行說明，這樣好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，國科會為了要發展低軌通訊衛星，你們編列了高達69.4億要來自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星，之前太空中心吳宗信主任有說，預計在2026年就要發射第一顆B5G低軌通訊衛星，請問副主委，現在的進度是不是能夠如期發射？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前應該是在進度內，我先補充說明一下，它其實不只是低軌衛星的發射，還有包含地面通訊設備，這個很重要，發射出去了以後要整個系統完整才……"],["萬委員美玲：好，能夠如期這樣很好。另外，據本席瞭解，現在我們研發兩顆B5G衛星本體的部分，太空中心現在沒有問題，但是我們委由工研院進行製作的通訊酬載，傳出是相當的不順利，有業界來跟本席爆料說現在工研院研發不出來，我們自己已經準備要向國外廠商採購了，請問這個消息是不是正確？"],["余副主任憲政：關於這個消息，國內跟國外的採購會一併來進行，所以工研院……"],["萬委員美玲：本席的問題是你們委由工研院製作的通訊酬載，現在進行得相當不順利，沒有辦法完成，所以我們現在要開始跟國外廠商採購，這個消息是對的嗎？"],["余副主任憲政：是。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有錯，是不是？那到底發生什麼情況？為什麼當初你們信誓旦旦的委由工研院去做，說我們有自行做好的能力，現在為什麼會這樣？什麼原因？請你講重點。"],["余副主任憲政：低軌衛星的通訊酬載是國內第一次做，工研院承接這方面的研發，在經驗上的確是有比較不夠地方，所以在時程上面稍微有點延誤。"],["萬委員美玲：那真的是非常遺憾，我想請教一下，現在我們要編經費來採購，採購的進度還有預算是多少錢？另外，現在因為要兩個衛星的酬載，那你是要先買一個，然後另外一個繼續等工研院？還是要怎麼做？"],["余副主任憲政：第一顆衛星我們會先用外購酬載的方式來進行，目前還在跟廠商研議，所以相關的價格跟時程還要再跟廠商研議。第二個是工研院的部分會持續進行，只是它的部分會延到比較後面再去發射。"],["萬委員美玲：我聽起來是沒有掌握性，就是說當初信心滿滿給工研院做，當然我們知道很多計畫是會有一些變化的，但是現在碰到這樣的狀況，工研院自己研發不出來，我們現在甚至於無法掌握，後續它要怎麼去做？到底有沒有能力做？針對這一點，我想會後副主委還是要來跟本席及教文委員會報告清楚，而不是說它現在已經做不出來了，我們再給它時間繼續做下去，可以還是不可以？備案是什麼？這一部分是不是會後再給我們詳細資料的提供跟說明，可以嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：另外，我們要建立完整的太空產業鏈，人才的培育是最重要的，副主委同意嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒有錯。"],["萬委員美玲：所以國科會跟各部會的合作，在112年已經招收太空相關研究所60名研究班的學生，所以今年國科會編列了1,684萬6,000元的預算要來進行太空相關人才的培訓，請問一下，這個預算你現在計畫上是預計要培養、培訓多少太空產業的人才？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前這個是學校的太空基礎人才，其他還有其實經濟部的比較是直接產業的連結，還有事實上教育部的基礎人才都有，所以不是只有教育部在培育。"],["萬委員美玲：這個我非常清楚，我現在針對的是國科會1,684萬的預算，所以你不要講別的地方，我相信其他的地方還是有嘛！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：大概117位左右。"],["萬委員美玲：117位？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["萬委員美玲：你要不要看一下你的書面？你書面告訴我們，你1,684萬，你自己看看你的書面，你要預計培育的人數是1,830人，怎麼會現在又變成一百多人？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們現在以目前112年學程的話是117位。"],["萬委員美玲：那目前嘛！你整個計畫，我們給你的太空基礎人才培育的預算數，你這邊寫1,684萬，然後要培育1,830個人，本席看到這個數字的時候其實非常讚許、大大地讚許，我覺得各部會要來向您學習一下是怎麼做的，一個人九千多塊錢，我們就可以培養我們太空基礎的人才了，可不可以說明一下？因為這個各部會要跟你取經一下。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：因為委員這裡包含……我剛剛講的117人是基礎科學學分的部分，還有產業的部分也有太空產業專班，這裡面也有，等等加起來，還有包括其他的科普講座跟其他應用的部分，整整來講加起來，那也許應該把那個細節的部分要提供給委員會。"],["萬委員美玲：副主委，因為這個數字很簡單啦！我相信任何一個委員來看都知道說這真的是一個神蹟，非常厲害。但是我要講的是我們既然有心要培養太空基礎人才，要認真做，不是有一點點預算做一個計畫，這樣子我跟你講是做不成的，尤其我們培育人才需要時間、需要經費，這樣子我認為是非常不好的。我們全力地支持，但未來預算提出的時候要有相對可執行性、可落實性，將來不管是誰來職掌國科會，我希望我們的團隊將來在任何一個案的執行上能夠更縝密一點，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，我們會回去改善。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。","我們再來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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案正在進行或者AI基本法還有一個AI的運用太空產業發展等等非常的多所以我們也希望這個主觀在動盪我們的心要穩住然後該做的工作要把它做好來那接下來跟您討論我想太空產業發展的重要性"},{"start":193.06,"end":218.753,"text":"吳政宗主委曾經說過國家發射場要在今年年底來選定那大概不外乎都是說會落腳在屏東或者是台東那由於這個使用年限一下去定了以後還非常的長不管是地理物理或是環境影響都要做全面的考量那也要相當未來的一個擴充性所以呢才了這麼久現在到底會在屏東還是台東那與地方溝通的情形這兩個地方有沒有一個進展"},{"start":220.657,"end":243.274,"text":"目前事實上在2月6日我們召開第一次審查會了然後對條件評估就如同剛剛委員講你還有很多複雜的比如說這個在地本身也要說一些溝通所以現在還沒有確定我們現在還沒有最後確定但是事實上有一些就跟主委上次講的那個空間跟物理的限制那意思是說跟屏東跟台東都有並行的進行溝通是這樣嗎對"},{"start":245.865,"end":258.599,"text":"對,那第一階段來講的話就是我們的這個發射場的條件在2月6號已經通過但是就是說現在還需要跟地方的溝通在物理條件上面以台灣的東南這個可能性最高"},{"start":260.441,"end":265.783,"text":"副主委,這個溝通其實也是溝通很久了啦那因為今天時間也有限我希望本席會議之後您能來說明一下為什麼溝通這麼久到底遇到了什麼困難啊你剛剛所說的這些要點我們都知道不會叫你貿然決定啊但你溝通也很久了所以會後我想來進行一個說明這樣好不好那再來喔"},{"start":282.209,"end":285.532,"text":"國科會為了發展低軌通訊衛星編列高達69.4億自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星之前太空中心吳宗信主任說預計2026發射第一顆B5G低軌通訊衛星請問副主委現在的進度是不是如期發射?"},{"start":306.372,"end":328.359,"text":"目前應該是在這個進度內而且我想補充說明一下它其實不只是第一個衛星的發射還有包含地面通訊設備這個很重要發射去了以後你要整個系統整個完整才能夠如期這樣很好另外據本席了解現在我們研發兩顆B5G的衛星本體的部分我們太空中心現在沒有問題但是呢"},{"start":330.12,"end":330.64,"text":"這個我們看是不是正確"},{"start":355.851,"end":366.982,"text":"本期的問題是公研院進行製作你們唯有他製作的通訊籌載現在是進行得相當不順利所以沒有辦法完成所以我們現在要開始跟國外廠商來採購這個消息是對的嗎是"},{"start":369.324,"end":373.548,"text":"這個低軌衛星的這個通訊投載是國內第一次做那公園院呃承接這個這方面的研發在經驗上的確是比較有不夠的地方所以在時程上面稍微有點延誤"},{"start":395.816,"end":398.637,"text":"現在我們要邊境費來採購那採購的進度還有預算那是多少錢然後進度另外那你現在因為要兩個衛星的籌載那你是要先買一個然後另外一個繼續等工研院還是怎麼做"},{"start":416.781,"end":434.421,"text":"第一顆衛星我們會先用外購的方式外購籌載的方式來進行目前還在跟廠商研議所以相關的價格跟這個時程還要再跟廠商做研議那第二個部分是供應院的部分會持續再進行只是他這部分會延後到比較後面再去發射"},{"start":435.373,"end":455.227,"text":"我聽起來是沒有掌握性啦就是說當初信心滿滿給工研院做當然我們知道很多的計畫它是會有一些變化的那但是呢現在您在這裡碰到這樣的狀況工研院自己研發不出來那我們甚至於現在無法掌握那後續他要怎麼去做那到底有沒有能力做這一點呢我想會後"},{"start":456.348,"end":481.167,"text":"副主委還是要來跟本席跟我們教文委員會報告清楚而不是說他現在已經做不出來了我們再給他時間繼續下去可以還是不可以備案是什麼那這個部分的話是不是會後的時候再來跟我們做詳細資料的提供跟說明可以嗎是是沒有問題那另外我想再來一個我們要建立完整的太空產業鏈人才的培育是最重要的副主委同意嗎是沒有錯"},{"start":482.487,"end":501.392,"text":"所以國科會跟我們各部會的合作在112年已經招收太空相關研究所60名的研究班的學生所以今年國科會編列了1684萬6千元的預算要來進行太空相關人才的培訓主委請問一下這個預算你現在計畫上是預計要培養培訓多少太空產業的人才"},{"start":509.714,"end":524.899,"text":"目前這個是從學校的太空基礎人才那其他還有其實經濟部的比較是直接產業的這個連結還有事實上是教育部的基礎人才都有所以不是只有教育部在這個我非常清楚我現在針對的是國科會1684萬的預算所以你不要講別的地方我相信其他的地方還是有100多位117位左右"},{"start":532.122,"end":532.643,"text":"目前是117位"},{"start":550.28,"end":557.564,"text":"目前你整個計畫我們給你的這個太空基礎人才培育的預算數你這邊寫的1684萬然後要培育1830人本期看到這個數字的時候其實非常讚許大大的讚許我覺得各部會要來向您學習一下是怎麼做的就一個人9000多塊錢我們就可以培養我們太空基礎的人才了可不可以說明一下因為這個可以各部會要跟你取經一下"},{"start":579.494,"end":599.546,"text":"是,因為那個委員這裡包含我剛剛講的是114科學的基礎科學學分的部分那還有比如說它產業的部分也有這些太空產業專班這裡面也有等等加起來還包括其他的這個科普的講座跟其他的這個應用、衍星應用的部分這整整來講加起來那也許我們更應該把那個細節的部分要提供給"},{"start":600.066,"end":623.96,"text":"副主委,因為這個數字很簡單啦我相信亮眼的委員來看都知道說這真的是一個神機啊,非常厲害喔那但是我要講的是說我們既然有心要培養太空基礎人才要認真做,不是呢有一點點預算,然後做一個計畫這樣子是我跟你講做不成的尤其我們培育人才需要時間,需要經費喔這樣子是,我認為啦是非常不好的所以我們希望,我們"},{"start":624.56,"end":624.62,"text":"謝謝萬美玲"}]}},{"id":"151048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151048","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b1137121a97bb00bde63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6beabdca209669a6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:14:31 - 11:24:01","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":570,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:24:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:14:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時14分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，改良式獵具，你們推廣多久了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：兩年了。"],["邱委員志偉：改良式獵具也有包括金屬材質？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有不同……"],["邱委員志偉：有包括金屬材質嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["邱委員志偉：因為今天很多版本都是希望全面禁用金屬材質，你們不建議修法的原因是，你們正在推廣改良式獵具。改良式獵具會不會有強大的殺傷力？是怎麼樣的獵具？能不能看一下？還是金屬材質嘛？大部分都是金屬材質嘛？"],["林署長華慶：金屬材質其實不是真正造成殺傷力的重點，是因為過細。"],["邱委員志偉：這個是改良式的獵具嘛？"],["林署長華慶：對，是因為線徑過細。"],["邱委員志偉：所以大部分是金屬嘛？"],["林署長華慶：對，所以金屬材質其實不是問題，而是線徑，現行市售的獵具線徑過細。"],["邱委員志偉：既然推廣了兩年，為什麼還提那麼多的修法，都是全面禁止金屬製？"],["林署長華慶：這次全面禁止是獸鋏，獸鋏全面禁止。以現在的高分子技術，也可以做成塑膠線，殺傷力會更強，它不是金屬。"],["邱委員志偉：你說的是山豬吊那個部分嘛？"],["林署長華慶：對……"],["陳代理部長駿季：今天最主要就是獸鋏完全禁止，針對山豬吊，我們在這次的修法並沒有提，但是在第十九條裡面有一個是可以依照主管機關公告的獵具。現在山豬吊還有必須存在的一些原因，所以我們現在積極地在推動改良式的這些獵具。"],["邱委員志偉：你應該跟所有的提案委員充分說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，剛才有說我們會推，然後在一年之內盡可能的……"],["邱委員志偉：你們剛剛解釋很清楚，我瞭解了。","接著是關於遠洋漁業的問題，目前從事遠洋漁業的我國籍船員人數大概有多少？"],["張署長致盛：我國籍的大概在2,000人左右。"],["邱委員志偉：遠洋漁業有高風險，包括機械故障、船員傷亡或者傷病，甚至船員失蹤。你們在2017年就有成立漁業監控中心，針對各項狀況，你們都有掌握，也都有通報，5年770件，平均1年大概154件，主要集中在機械故障、傷病、死亡，你們有沒有什麼方法可以讓機械故障的案件數能夠下降？確保漁船作業或者在遠洋的過程中，能夠符合適航標準，有沒有更積極的作為？"],["張署長致盛：這個涉及到船舶設備及安全的部分，船舶檢查是交通部航港局的權責。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分主管機關應該要協調交通部相關單位，確保它的適航標準能夠提高。"],["張署長致盛：目前都定期安檢。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你們要跟衛福部協調放寬慢性病處方箋用藥限制，這部分的進度怎麼樣？"],["張署長致盛：這部分已經經過協調了，相關部會也都支持，我們會針對船上常用的部分，讓他可以攜帶足夠的藥物。"],["邱委員志偉：有共識之後，你們就要去宣導，讓這些遠洋漁業從業的船員能夠瞭解他們的權益。另外，失蹤案平均有9.4件，這個算是高，漁業署有沒有加強精進的作為？"],["張署長致盛：因為失蹤案最主要發生的原因就是意外落海，現在我們有推救生衣，總共會補助遠洋漁船2萬件，等於是船上幾乎每個人都有，只要在甲板上工作，規定就是要穿救生衣，落海之後比較容易搜救。另外也給他定位指示器，會補助1萬具，有這個就比較容易搜救。"],["邱委員志偉：要全面澈底去執行，降低失蹤數，這個當然是確保他們的安全。","另外，韓國有個經驗2022 K-brand，就是韓流行銷作業，結合他們的觀光及相關部門，特別是把農漁產品透過平臺，跨部會合作一起來行銷韓國主要的商品。當然農業部也有加強農產品國際行銷方案，但是只侷限於農產品，應該要有更大的思維、更大的視野，結合其他的，比方體育、文化或者藝術，做臺灣整體的行銷，這個部分可以參考韓國K-brand經驗。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝委員的建議，過往其實像在東京食品這種的大型展覽，我們都是以農產品為主，但是我們在建築或其他部分的活動時，有跟其他的文化產業連接在一起，剛才委員提到應該更鏈結其他的部會一起去行銷，這個部分我們會積極來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：包括體育、文化、藝術。"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們現在正在推的就是體育，針對奧運，我們現在會在飛機上推廣臺灣這些優良的農產品，這個就是一個例子。"],["邱委員志偉：最好是有個T-brand，T-brand一定要包含石斑和虱目魚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：接下來今天的修法主要是針對IUU，針對IUU，歐盟有一個比較完整的計畫，美國也有完整的計畫來確保IUU漁業捕撈是受到全面禁止，今天修法之後這些IUU的漁獲或漁產品不得進口，我們能不能仿照歐盟和美國的作法，美國有SIMP、歐盟有漁獲證書計畫，這些規定都很嚴格，來確保所有的漁獲並非來自IUU？修法之後，我們的查驗能力夠不夠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個部分，我們會公告這些已經符合IUU的規範，不能進口的範圍，進口的時候，我們會在邊境把關，像魚類是凍品的時候會經過衛福部的非追不可系統，第一階段會登錄它的品項及來源。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你們有完整的配套措施？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，以農業部來講，後續會協助它去追溯，衛福部有一個追溯系統……"],["邱委員志偉：還沒有修法之前，臺灣進口的IUU漁獲數量大概多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們目前並沒有，因為它現在不用申報是IUU，所以他不會寫，我們強制……"],["邱委員志偉：所以表面上是沒有任何數據，但是事實上有IUU的漁獲在市場上面？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以我們現在的觀察是不會有。"],["邱委員志偉：不會有的話，我們修法的目的是什麼？不就是為了解決現在的問題嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，國際上對IUU有一個非常嚴謹的規範。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道。"],["張署長致盛：包括什麼樣的漁船、什麼樣的漁獲，目前為止，國際上並沒有……"],["邱委員志偉：我們要跟國際接軌，但是我們沒有法令等相關依據。"],["張署長致盛：對，國際上打擊IUU是不遺餘力的，我們對出口、進口的部分都有相關法規來規範，所以我們是把進口這個部分補足，我們是跟國際同步的，而且也避免以後發生這樣的事情，裁罰不是我們的目的，而是不要發生這件事，所以我們也提出相關的措施來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：除了把進口的部分補足之外，如果有強迫勞動的狀況，我們一度被列為強迫勞動的名單，跟中國，甚至跟迦納、泰國、印尼，所謂的血汗海鮮未來會不會也變成IUU的樣態之一？"],["張署長致盛：目前美國已經把強迫勞動列為IUU的樣態之一，我覺得把臺灣認為是強迫勞動，對我們的漁業是不公平的，不能因為少數個案，而且未經證實，就把臺灣的漁業認為是血汗海鮮。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有跟相關單位反映？"],["張署長致盛：有，目前我們的漁業與人權行動計畫，其實針對很多方面都已經在做努力，國外包括NGO初步也都認同臺灣的努力，後續我們還是要……"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候可以移除這個名單？它是每年公布嗎？"],["張署長致盛：每兩年公布一次。"],["邱委員志偉：從2020年第一次被列入名單，2022年也有一次，接下來就是2024年，2024年會不會還是被列入名單？"],["張署長致盛：我們在努力，也在做相關的國際溝通。"],["邱委員志偉：不能因為個案影響到臺灣的整體形象。"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。現在休息。","休息（11時24分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：繼續開會，請各位就座。","接下來請黃委員國昌發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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條文修正草案 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趙氏"},{"start":87.906,"end":89.067,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":109.764,"end":110.665,"text":"吳春城委員會主席"},{"start":131.901,"end":132.762,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":153.217,"end":154.378,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":170.449,"end":171.37,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":186.87,"end":187.47,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":211.142,"end":231.031,"text":"好,謝謝,了解,了解,了解我跟妳講,現在才要來清兩脈妳的家庭要一年九個月那接下來妳覺得是更密集的事嗎?那既然有這樣的問題,就希望能找直接的方法來解釋對,後來我們會面臨這個問題好,那現在已經有一個部分在整個領域改新的方法是不是上次的方式剛好這個方式"},{"start":246.375,"end":268.802,"text":"他如果來台灣找到高科技的產業﹖當然是科技的產業﹖那我想台灣的高科技產業﹖那我想大嶼的過程之外﹖還在一些公部門﹖但是在高科技的形態上﹖還是我想在企業上﹖"},{"start":272.331,"end":273.171,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":301.65,"end":302.751,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":346.471,"end":346.851,"text":"吳春城委員"},{"start":359.724,"end":359.864,"text":"主委請問你貴庚幾歲?"},{"start":376.089,"end":379.612,"text":"我滿60,還沒滿61我52年次所以您的提議很有感有感,已經到了適用的年齡"},{"start":395.662,"end":409.495,"text":"我們的新內閣出來當然其他幾位有年輕化但是我們這一個新的院長65歲你覺得他65歲在你們科技人當中你覺得65歲以後要做什麼"},{"start":420.171,"end":445.087,"text":"65歲應該是相當成熟的一個階段應該相當成熟,他可以發揮,如果在美國他事實上沒有退休的很多到80歲90歲我看到諾貝爾獎得主很多所以我們就叫做AI內閣嘛對不對不是AI啦就是有行動跟創新嘛對不對65歲以後能夠帶動行動創新對不對所以你很認同那我們看一下這個是國科會規劃的嗎"},{"start":447.704,"end":451.59,"text":"去年的高齡大部分嘛,跨部會,但是國科會在主導嘛,對不對?這個是給幾歲以上的人用的?"},{"start":462.728,"end":462.768,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":477.876,"end":495.743,"text":"那你覺得我們現在的那個卓院長哪一些東西適合他來用?長照嗎?玉立遺囑嗎?會不會?高嶺之長你覺得哪一些東西他會用?他需要他看了以後蓬然心動你有看哪一項?"},{"start":497.861,"end":497.981,"text":"陳建仁議員"},{"start":516.38,"end":516.72,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":539.526,"end":562.427,"text":"為什麼標題一開始講左座方向的高齡科技產業我覺得非常重要今天講這個事情實在太重要了因為你們車子已經開下去了然後我看了今天的這份報告裡面你們未來科技的一個布局策略跟布局有關高齡社會的還是只有精準醫療而已其他的都一樣是沒有"},{"start":563.732,"end":592.571,"text":"阿這個已經講很多次了你看就像這大概就是這個嘛那個普惠科技阿你看他的高齡者的想像的場域就是醫院養老院藥局嘛樂齡宅樂齡大學社區大概就在這些圈子裡面繞來繞去嘛你們設想他們未來的生活需要在這個圈子繞來繞去吧我告訴你這裡這一些人未來2034年台灣一半的人超過50歲2045年一半人超過60歲整個台灣未來社會就是由這一群人構成欸"},{"start":593.812,"end":617.155,"text":"整天在這裏洗來洗去科技是一種百年大業朝的方向都已經方向都錯誤了這個錯誤理由不得了我跟你講所以不要講那麼大的講最近你們已經預定在做的一個計畫叫做高齡者數位資源獲取平台是不是國科會在主導這件事情數位部大家來看"},{"start":618.456,"end":628.551,"text":"我看了以後很擔心我看了以後很擔心你看我們來看就是數位部做的去年的調查"},{"start":629.775,"end":648.705,"text":"我們現在有500萬高齡者60歲以上的僅有87.5萬在使用網路還有一半的人沒有網路的使用另外一半的人在使用當中有"},{"start":649.946,"end":650.166,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":666.42,"end":692.699,"text":"有這個一半的一半250萬人在使用當中只有3乘5在使用那這個要檢討原因為什麼普及率不高另外呢另外呢一半的人我們就放棄他嗎氣質不管嗎這招人數未失能那你有沒有想更多的誘因平台你現在在規劃這個東西嗎怎麼吸引他們來來來投入我覺得要思考的問題"},{"start":693.76,"end":706.055,"text":"那我們看看你們現在做的你們現在做出來的這個高齡學期平台的一個架構這個架構看起來就已經很可怕了因為你的目標照顧有愛高齡無愛這個有夠LKK的"},{"start":710.922,"end":729.793,"text":"目標設定就錯誤啦他是要美好的第三人生啦所以你看你們那個架構就學習資源然後生活資源就叫老人送餐叫車服務社交就是引髮住宅電心然後關懷社區關懷據點就是搞這一些啦真的是這個要拜託這個"},{"start":733.564,"end":760.578,"text":"好所以呢基本上我一直在談的就是現在目前我們國科會我們整個高齡科技看到的都還是銀髮需求這裡還是重調一下你銀髮就是黃色這一邊的藍色基本上我想我應該沒有誤解你們你們把誤色的然後現在現在的人真的就是已經進入到壯世代你才有感因為你也是壯世代所以一聽你一定會覺得你是藍色這一邊的嘛這些才會讓你心動嘛"},{"start":762.959,"end":779.654,"text":"這個就是我們現在這個MASL的這個人生的價值層次這一個我們現在說做的就是低層次的生理需求、安全需求直到這個連到愛的需求都沒有尊嚴的需求都沒有上面的所有的需求都沒有你們都做最低層次的"},{"start":780.074,"end":784.256,"text":"現在勞動部非常的號召壯士來重返職場那這個是21世紀高齡勞動是主流是非常重要的全世界朝著李方講數位勞動也是主流"},{"start":807.626,"end":823.781,"text":"那所以如何讓高齡者能夠數位化這是應該列為國家重大政策嗎應該是國科會重中之重非常重一半人口欸這一半人口這一半氣質不管我不曉得還有什麼更重要的事情"},{"start":825.345,"end":845.607,"text":"所以至少啦其實這個大有檢討的必要回去可不可以重新來思考這個架構因為照這個架構走下去我覺得真的是完蛋了國家就完蛋了所以現在國科運業上次我就有跟我們主委有提出你們願意做這個需求調查嘛正在進行中啦但是呢"},{"start":847.416,"end":847.536,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":864.07,"end":864.11,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b6e2140e073507252e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a65a3d332f07b030805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:07:04 - 11:14:29","影片長度":"00:07:25","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":445,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:14:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T11:07:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，今天要處理遠洋漁業條例，臺灣作為漁業的大國，我們一定是跟著國際相關規範來走，我們大概來做一些相關的處理，但我還是要再提醒農業部，從全球漁業的狀況來看，未來10年其實還是會呈現上升的趨勢，包括人類對於魚類的需求，因為它是一個很好的蛋白質來源，我想都會持續地來增加，特別是在高收入的國家，它的量會持續地增加，所以作為本來就是遠洋漁大國，其實這是我們的一些優勢，我也希望農業部跟漁業署能夠持續地強化我們在漁業上面的這些優勢，不要讓我們原來很具有競爭力、很有優勢的一個產業在國際競爭上反而趨於弱勢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我們會持續努力，特別是目前漁業的資源日益衰竭的時候，我們要怎麼樣透過一些方法讓這個資源再回復，以確保我們資源的永續，這個是我們近期一直在努力、在調整的方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，就海洋跟整個漁業這兩件事情其實都是重要的事物，全世界也都高度關注，我們既然已經作為是海洋也作為是漁業大國的時候，我們應該更善加運用優勢，不管是在產業或在國際上取得一個更好的位置。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也希望這部分未來能跟行政院持續來爭取，不管是在人員、預算或組織上面都能夠有更多的支持。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們的遠洋業其實真的是相當具有競爭力，2022年的時候，遠洋漁業有48萬噸，年產值大概355億，這還不包括上下游的相關產業、包括整個加工業、包括冷凍倉儲、包括修造船或者是漁網漁具，這些在全世界都是非常強的，如果整體來看，是超過千億的。但是從去年前鎮漁港發生的事情就知道，其實很多國人並不了解，甚至很多當時要選立委的議員都還不太清楚，所以我的意思是，這部分還是希望部跟署裡面要加強去做宣導，我們有這麼強的遠洋實力，如果連要參選立委的人都搞不清楚，還講什麼抓哥吉拉，還在虧這種的話，顯然是完全不瞭解，那一般國人就更不一定那麼清楚，甚至還可能被似是而非的言論所影響，我還是希望未來加強去宣導，我們的漁業是很強的而且有高產值，甚至於在很多的產業方面是養家活口，撐起很多人生計的，我覺得這個要不斷地讓國人更清楚地知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，我們會持續加強宣導遠洋漁業本身正面的貢獻，雖然有少部分、偶發的「老鼠屎」，但絕對不能影響整個遠洋漁業正面的貢獻。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩件事情，一是遠洋漁業的重要性要持續讓大家知道，另外一方面是對於少數、負面、不肖的行為，我們要有效去遏止，不要讓這些行為影響到多數。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也不要讓這些影響到我們的國際形象，我覺得這一塊要持續加強。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：IUU今天我們大概會處理到。另外有一個是從2017年到2020年之間，依遠洋漁業條例裁罰了大概520筆，金額大概三億多，即3億3,737萬，有303艘漁船被開罰，我們的總數有1,100艘，也就是有將近三分之一、超過四分之一踩到這一條線被裁罰，顯然在很多的宣導跟溝通、輔導上，還有更多加強的空間。請部長跟署長以一個月內的時間再整體盤點一下，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對於一些輔導的機制或有什麼樣的機制，讓這些漁民們不要那麼輕易地踩到這一條紅線，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們會更積極地去做，因為有些踩到線的是船員的配置跟相關的部分，我們把它分類。我也跟委員說明，特別是有一些比較重大的違規，我們都會用服務的角度，包括他越線，我們會先提醒他，我們已經在研究這個機制。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個月的時間把它整理出來，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，一個月我們可以處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：法的部分怎麼做？我們的目標不是要去罰這些漁民，目標是要輔導他們不要踩到這一條線，我覺得這一塊是我們可以做更多努力的地方。一個月的時間做一個盤點的報告給我。"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我很關心的就是前鎮漁港的進度，水產品營銷中心是一個很重要的核心。我知道這個成敗的觀念來自於將來是不是找到一個好的產業能夠進駐，有指標性的產業進駐對整個前鎮漁港會有相當大的進展，我知道後來農業部採用OT的方式來進行。部長，現在進度到哪邊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個我是不是可以請漁業署先回答一下？"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以。"],["張署長致盛：目前我們已經完成初步的可行性評估，因為OT促參的部分必須經過農業部的審查，我們已經送到農業部，農業部也安排很快的時間之內，就會進行相關的審查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長預定什麼時候可以審查完畢來進行？"],["陳代理部長駿季：整體的部分，已經可以去處理的，我希望4月底到5月底之前能夠完成第一階段的審查。因為審查可能還會做一些改進，所以我覺得效率跟tempo要快一點，才能夠符合進度。"],["賴委員瑞隆：照原定的時程，今年底以前要完成相關的程序，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們預計今年一定要完成，但是我們之前會有階段性的審查規劃。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長跟署長加快速度，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：越早招商完成，越早把好的廠商找進來，會加速整個地方上的推動。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來是我看到年限後來也做了一些調整，有30年的時間，從最早期的時間拉長，當然30年讓將來業者投入的時候，比較能夠估算未來投資的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是20加10這樣的概念。"],["賴委員瑞隆：20加10的方式。但是我看到烏石漁港有到50年，我還是請農業部審慎思考，希望你們邀商的時候，多聽聽看業界的一些聲音。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：重點是招到強的廠商進來，好的廠商進來的話，就很輕鬆、愉快的經營，如果找到的不是一個強的廠商，恐怕後面就會讓大家很擔憂，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：廠商需要多長年限，恐怕大家有很多的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會個別來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：他們會有很多的整體思考，要投入很多規模的話，要有相當的……因為我們現在也在努力把捷運黃線拉進來，這也需要一點時間，所以我們希望整體思考，讓最大的遠洋漁港未來有非常好的發展，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來，請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.1953437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.472843750000001,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.437843750000003,"end":67.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.49596875,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":21.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.16784375,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.439718750000004,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.48034375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.96971875,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.20596875000001,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.22284375000001,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.27346875,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.54284375,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.48596875000001,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.88659375,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.60346875,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.67034375,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.52534375,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.37284375000002,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.65909375,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.63096875000002,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.12721875000003,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.97034375,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.94034375,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.03221875000003,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.36971875,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.53409375,"end":209.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.56784375,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.71534375000002,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.97221875000002,"end":213.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.63846875000002,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.67221875,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.97596875000002,"end":217.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.90409375000002,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.10784375000003,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.90409375,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.45596875,"end":287.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.02034375,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.91409375,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.98096875000005,"end":293.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.49096875000004,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.88721875000005,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.75096875,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.70721875000004,"end":317.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.78721875,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.03909375,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.96284375000005,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.44346875,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.46784375000004,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.79596875000004,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.64784375000005,"end":345.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000004,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.88409375000003,"end":345.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.90096875,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.91784375000003,"end":362.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.49346875000003,"end":367.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.89346875,"end":373.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.78284375000004,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.51971875000004,"end":382.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.51784375,"end":399.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.65659375,"end":402.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.03971875,"end":404.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.31784375,"end":442.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.76409375000003,"end":411.91596875000005},{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案件及其中一半的國人可能更不一定那麼清楚甚至被似是而非的言論去講我還是希望未來加強去做宣導我們的漁業是一個很強的有一個高產值甚至於在很多的產業方面是養家活口造成很多人的一個生計的我覺得這個要不斷的讓國人更清楚的知道我想我們會持續加強遠洋漁業本身的正面的這些貢獻雖然說有少部分那種偶發的而且是這種這種"},{"start":194.164,"end":195.745,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":217.984,"end":220.445,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":243.251,"end":245.132,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":264.167,"end":265.949,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其其他條文修正草案案件及其其其其其其其其"},{"start":284.867,"end":286.128,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":306.817,"end":309.158,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、審查：一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":326.347,"end":354.045,"text":"這個初步我可以請那個業主先回答一下目前我們已經完成初步的整個可行性評估然後因為這個OT的部分、促參的部分我們必須經過農業部的審查那我們已經送到農業部農業部也排很快的時間之內就會進行相關的審查部長一定什麼時候可以來審查完畢來進行整體的部分就是已經可以去處理的我希望說能夠都能夠到四月底到五月底之前能夠把它完成第一階段的審查"},{"start":354.625,"end":369.988,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十七條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":370.729,"end":393.536,"text":"但是我們之前我們會有階段性的一個審查我希望部長這邊跟署長這邊加快這個速度好不好這個越早招商完成越早把好的廠商找進來會加速整個地方上面的一個推動那再來是我看到年限上面後來做了一些調整30年的時間從最早期的時間拉長那30年當然將來業者他投入的時候他比較能夠去估算他的"},{"start":394.036,"end":403.641,"text":"整個未來投資的20加10這樣的方式。但是我看到五十漁港有到50年。五十漁港到50年。"},{"start":405.516,"end":412.399,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之"},{"start":434.687,"end":440.253,"text":"條文修正草案案件事件,我們希望整理思考,讓整個我們最大的遠洋漁港未來的發展是一個非常好的發展。」"}]}},{"id":"151045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b64e7af87a8cb8367e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6c1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:56:55 - 11:07:01","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:07:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:56:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時57分）謝謝主席。首先有請陳部長。"],["主席：來，請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：陳部長，剛剛張嘉郡委員談到酪農，有關我們進口牛奶的問題，這個問題我大概處理過兩年，在苗栗縣造橋鄉只有小小的幾家，但是生產量過剩的時候，都沒有辦法解決，現在從紐西蘭零關稅進口，牛奶的品質又好，又有科技化把它結成一個冰下來，所以剛剛講你們對酪農要怎麼輔導，我不抱著期待，我相信臺灣的酪農會慢慢地被消滅、會逐漸地凋零、會逐漸地消失，因為我們的競爭價格實在比不過，所以我上次處理那個事情，我就覺得算了，他也把乳牛的母牛都賣了很多頭，我相信應該有跟我一起處理。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員說明，您剛才講到一點，就是國外的牛奶比臺灣的牛奶好喝，這點我不認同，因為我覺得國產的牛奶有它特殊的風味……"],["陳委員超明：當然牛奶有不同，但一般的反映都是這樣，它是紐西蘭的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在國產的牛乳大概有占了將近八成九到九成之間，我們怎麼樣讓國產牛奶做市場的區隔，增加它後端的一個拉力，那是我們自已要努力的。"],["陳委員超明：現在我只跟你講，酪農養的酪牛一直在減少，終究會被淘汰，在5年之內，你們仍然在執政，我們來看看你的結果，這是第一點。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我絕對不會……"],["陳委員超明：第二點，因為冷鏈物流一直是農業部在推動，苗栗縣那幾年好像都沒有申請到，但是我記得保留到明年度，我們鍾東錦縣長對冷鏈物流非常重視，麻煩給我們補助、給我們加強。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有關冷鏈的部分，我們正在建構整個臺灣島的冷鏈物流網，不會特別是跳了一個區塊、板塊，所以我們一定會……"],["陳委員超明：缺了苗栗這一塊，我特別提出來，我自己很瞭解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為包括區域冷鏈物流跟地方的部分，我們都會去配合。"],["陳委員超明：這個部分加強補助一下。","再來，今天討論到野生動物保護法，我請我們林務局的林署長。我常常懷疑一個問題，石虎是苗栗縣政府一個標誌保護的動物，苗栗縣也推展成功，但是為什麼我每次都要跟你討論這個問題？我一講到石虎，我選舉的票就少了幾千票，但是我是很務實的人，我要把地方的情形即時反映，我現在只要求你一點，因為我選舉期間，在海線地區，海線苗栗縣有四個鄉鎮，竹南鎮是沒有納入石虎保護區的，但是你把後龍、通霄、苑裡都納入石虎保護區，我反映了好幾次，我為什麼一直要反映？雖然我的票因此而減少，但是我仍然要反映，明明全省靠海的鄉鎮都沒有石虎保護區，我一直強調，好像石虎很喜歡苗栗縣，所以你把後龍、通霄、苑裡也變成石虎保護區，莫名其妙！別的縣市就沒有，臺中的大安都沒有，只有這三個鄉鎮，好像石虎很喜歡到後龍去、很喜歡到通霄去、很喜歡到苑裡去。我們來檢討一下，因為我受這個困擾非常大，現在石虎已經保育得非常好，苗栗的鄉親都有這樣的觀念，但是你把海線的那幾個鄉鎮納入石虎保護區後，我每天都被人罵，你也要有良心一點……"],["林署長華慶：委員，沒有啦，那個沒劃保護區。"],["陳委員超明：沒有這麼做的啦！全臺灣都沒有，就只有我們那三個靠海的鄉鎮……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，對於石虎本身，我們只框牠的活動範圍，並不是把它劃定為保護區，所以只是牠的活動範圍是完全不能開發，它是有條件的區域。"],["陳委員超明：部長，我希望你修正這個。林局長，我一直在強調，沒有這種道理！難道苗栗縣的石虎只會在苗栗縣，新竹沒有，臺中沒有，他們都在隔壁耶！全部都被你們這樣劃起來……"],["林署長華慶：臺中也有啦。"],["陳委員超明：我現在只要求你海線的三個鄉鎮，好不好？全省都沒有，只有這三個鄉鎮被你劃為石虎保護區。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有啦，委員，如果石虎經常出現的話，我們把它叫做熱區、熱點，然後有曾經出沒過的，我們叫做潛勢。"],["陳委員超明：我開一次檢討會，縣政府會參加，我們現在對這個問題非常的困擾，好不好？尤其海線的那三鄉鎮被你納進去，全省都沒有，你是特別欺負我們苗栗人，你是要我這立委不要幹了、不要當選了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們不會這樣子啦。"],["陳委員超明：好，請回座，就是大家討論一下，不然地方的發展時常受阻，你們都講沒有，你們不瞭解情形，我不想再多講了，講多了我的選票就少了。現在石虎不能罵，要稱讚牠很漂亮，你到我們當地去走一下就可以瞭解，真的是很難做人。","現在我請漁業署張署長。"],["張署長致盛：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：張署長，我很謝謝你對苗栗縣的漁港這樣建設和支持，但是我今天看了一個資料說，去年漁業署跟能源署討論成立共存共榮基金，在離岸風力的部分，這個共存共榮基金是要給漁民的補償，還是地方的回饋？你知道這個嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，這個是整體的方案，一個是給漁民的協助……"],["陳委員超明：所謂整體的方案是怎麼樣？"],["張署長致盛：第一個部分就是漁民受到的損失給他補償，第二個就是漁民可能要做一些轉型或是在地資源的養護。"],["陳委員超明：所以這個共存共榮基金是在漁民之間使用的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，像風電的部分，它有補償，但是共榮基金不是一個直接的補償，而是利用共榮基金本身的費用來做整個包括漁港的建設、未來漁港的文化以及漁民本身的進出，所以它是一個綜合的……"],["陳委員超明：是誰管理的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它是由漁會去做相關的……"],["陳委員超明：我現在就是這樣被你們害死的，你們為了要達成這個，而且我還不能說話，因為我們要鼓勵它補償，共存共榮基金是由漁會管理，還是誰管理的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它是由財團法人或是漁會成立一個管理小組進行管理的，它不是由一個單位去做管理的。"],["陳委員超明：當然漁業署在講是給漁會管理，但是我們在地方遇到的問題是，那地方的回饋呢？地方回饋也沒有，現在幾個鄉鎮公所天天來跟我吵，說怎麼漁會有，我鄉鎮公所沒有？這是我們遇到的問題。所以我覺得這個共存共榮基金，你們真的要好好檢討，不然我們實在是擺不平。"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，這個基金的使用在地方有一個管理的部分，包括漁會，包括其他的政府機關，還有縣市政府、鄉鎮公所，這些都是可以參加這個小組的。"],["陳委員超明：還有，你說在113年以後，那我還更慘，全臺灣第一座離岸風力就在我苗栗縣，他們以前做了都沒有回饋，後面的有回饋，你看我要怎麼討論這個事情？先做的人就先倒楣，你知道我說的意思嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["陳委員超明：我們竹南地方有一個四萬的離岸風力在那邊，現在你這一條設下來，後面的人就有共存共榮基金，那以前設立的呢？先做好人的卻沒有一點收穫。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，離岸風電有離岸風電的補償費，共榮基金有共榮基金的，我們在1月22日……"],["陳委員超明：所以你現在要把補償費跟共榮基金跟我講清楚喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這兩個是分開的，這兩個是不一樣的喔！"],["陳委員超明：部長和署長，你們下鄉好好來解釋這一條，你現在有補償費，還有共存共榮基金都在漁會，一些地方政府都拿不到……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會再積極的去做宣導，這個共榮基金不是只有農會可以使用，它是以一個管理委員會的方式去執行的，我們會加強這方面的宣導。"],["陳委員超明：你這部分要講清楚，不然會增加我們的困擾，尤其現在我們苗栗縣的風力最強，我每天都被九降風吹到頭昏眼花，你們下來幫我說明清楚，更瞭解一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員超明：還有我跟你講，跟能源署一起討論，好不好？"],["張署長致盛：好，我們會把涉及漁民權益的部分做說明。"],["陳委員超明：今天有這個問題，你去解決，其他的問你，你們都沒有發覺到，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員發言。","主席再宣告一次，邱志偉委員發言結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案。"},{"start":339.81,"end":367.04,"text":"第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":372.844,"end":389.72,"text":"那個張市長我很謝謝你對苗栗縣的漁港這樣建設跟支持但是我今天看了一個資料說你們去年1月時跟人員時討論成立共存共榮基金在離岸風力"},{"start":391.385,"end":417.074,"text":"共存共榮基金是要以漁民的補償還是地方的回饋?各位委員報告這個是整體的方案一個是給漁民的協助第一個部分就是漁民受到的損失給他補償第二個就是漁民可能要做一些轉型或者是在地的一些資源的養分所以這個共存共榮的基金是在漁民之間使用的?"},{"start":418.174,"end":431.905,"text":"我跟委員說明一下那個整個的一個向豐電的部分他有補償但是他有一個共農基金他不是一個直接的補償他是利用這個共農的基金本身所的費用能夠做整個漁港的包括漁港的建設"},{"start":432.705,"end":443.39,"text":"然後會來漁港的這些文化還有漁民本身的一個進出所以他是一個綜合的一個他是由相關的漁會漁會的部分去做相關的"},{"start":457.017,"end":458.719,"text":"二．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":479.876,"end":503.379,"text":"條文修正草案案。所以我覺得在這個共存共同基金裡面我們真的要好好檢討,沒問題擺不平啊。各位委員報告齁,這個基金的使用齁,在地方有一個管理的部分,包括漁會,包括相關的其他的政府機關,還有縣市政府、鄉鎮公所這些都是可以參加這個小組裡面的。"},{"start":505.697,"end":525.632,"text":"你說在一百一十三年以後啊我剛才我阿哥到海前臺灣省第一座離岸風力就在我苗栗縣啊他們以前做了都沒有回饋後面的有回饋你看我要怎麼來討論這件事情啊先做人就先討論你知道我講的意思嗎"},{"start":527.697,"end":552.486,"text":"我們在竹南地方有一個四萬的那個離岸風力的在那邊現在你這條設下來後面的人就有共存共農資金那以前設立我先做我先做好了我沒有一點收穫沒有離岸風電他補償補償費有補償費那共農基金有共農基金那我們在1月23號所以你現在補償費跟共農基金都要跟我講嗎沒有這兩個是分開的喔這兩個是不一樣的喔"},{"start":557.028,"end":571.094,"text":"市長你下來好好解釋這一條。你現在有補償會、共榮、共存基金都在示威,一些地方政府都拿不上。我想我們會再積極的去做一個宣導"},{"start":572.174,"end":593.527,"text":"這個共農基金不是只有農會可以使用,它是一個管理委員會的方式去執行的,我想我們會加強這方面的一個憲法。不過我一直在講,不然會增加我們困擾,尤其現在我們苗栗縣的風力最強,高高風,我每天給人家擦到頭暈眼花了,下來幫我說明清楚,更了解一下。還有我跟你講,跟能源使一起要討論。"},{"start":594.748,"end":595.851,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b9a79b55ec41bdc9c039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6d3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:49:28 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11:00:55","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":687,"end_time":"2024-04-11T11:00:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:49:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時49分）謝謝主席，有請我們的副主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員早安。"],["張委員雅琳：副主委早安。上次我們在討論TAIDE這個計畫的時候，是有講到我們現在正在開發所謂的學研版本，它有非常多不錯的功能，但是我也發現這個計畫中有一個很有趣的部分，也是我自己長期關注的所謂母語教育的部分。就是現在國科會是在建構正體中文的版本，同時也有在使用基於13B的學研版本來訓練臺語與客語的ChatGPT，希望未來可以應用在中小學的母語教育，來協助推廣母語教育。因為在訓練這種語言模型的時候，最重要的就是資料庫，我知道目前使用的資料庫就有台灣媠聲資料集，還有臺華台平行語料庫、客委會語音資料庫、客語能力認證資料庫，但是我看了我們公布在網站的訓練資料，幾乎都是正體中文的版本，這樣子的訓練資料量是足夠的嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想這個部分當然就是如同委員上面寫的，客語這個部分當然有特殊的資料庫，我們會積極去爭取，目前我們是儘量把已經可以授權的資料庫先放進去，而且TAIDE本身的資料庫很重要，它就是希望建立正體字本身，就繁體字本身這個資料庫，因為所有資料庫的背後都有社會文化的關係，所以這個是我們建立TAIDE非常重要的一個部分，具體來講夠不夠，請副執行秘書簡單回答。"],["林副執行秘書明仁：跟委員報告，我想您說的沒錯，資料的訓練其實資料量就是最重要的，我們第一步開始當然是先充正體中文，包含臺語、客語、原住民母語的部分也都有在思考，可是的確那個語料從哪裡來，比如我們就會找客委會，問他們是不是有一些語言認證，那個就是，就會拉進來……"],["張委員雅琳：我們未來還會有更多的訓練資料庫嗎？因為像文化部這幾年也產出非常多相關的……"],["林副執行秘書明仁：會、會。"],["張委員雅琳：客委會、原委會都有相關的一些教材，這些東西是不是都可以儘快地納進來，一起來做……"],["林副執行秘書明仁：是，這個團隊都有很努力在跟各部會就資料協商，但它背後有著作權的問題需要解決。"],["張委員雅琳：對，針對這件事情，你們有一個期程的規劃嗎？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：我們第一期是4月底7B會先釋出，那案子就……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，但是我是針對於母語訓練的部分。"],["林副執行秘書明仁：如果有新的案子的話，我們就會再繼續找母語，繼續再加強這方面的訓練。"],["張委員雅琳：新的案子指的意思是什麼？是我們現在還沒有規劃，是未來再規劃的意思嗎？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：有規劃了。"],["張委員雅琳：有規劃。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個會持續。"],["林副執行秘書明仁：這個一定會持續。"],["張委員雅琳：這個會持續，好，那有沒有一些相關的資料，就如果你現在已經有些規劃期程的話，是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室，好不好？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：好，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。","再來，在這個訓練的資料裡面，像是國科會「科技大觀園」網站的資料，我是可以用臺語詢問ChatGPT關於科學的知識，會獲得臺語的回答嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們希望有一天可以用不同的語言來回答，但目前可能還沒有，這是一個很好的提議……"],["張委員雅琳：那我們可不可以往這個方向，好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對、對、對……"],["張委員雅琳：不然，你已經做了這個……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：就真的用不同語言輸入，然後它就可以回答，這個應該是要。"],["張委員雅琳：好不好？我們往這個方向，因為你也都把一些語言認證的東西放進去了，我們往這個方向來努力……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，這樣會很有感。"],["張委員雅琳：對。再來，之前也有講到臺語版正在導入中小學臺語教學的應用案例，在臺南大學就有將臺語的這個模型出版，導入臺語對話的生成式AI，在仁德國小做臺語教學，我想要知道，目前是希望可以把這個機器人的對話能力提升到國小中高年級，來幫助學生學臺語，那我們現在相關的像客語或其他國家語言也是有這個方向，讓它可以成為幫助學生學臺語的嗎？這個也是有嗎？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：這個後面我們就持續規劃。"],["張委員雅琳：這個也是有一些相關的規劃期程已經出來了嗎？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：目前還沒有。"],["張委員雅琳：目前還沒有。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前還沒有，我想有很多的應用，如果把這個平台建立起來，這個能力建立起來，因為我們是建立核心的引擎，輸入重要的資料，如果這個起來以後……"],["張委員雅琳：我懂，但是因為13B已經開始做這個部分了嘛！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，我們就可以跟其他的應用面連結，它就可以應用這個資料庫來做剛剛委員提供的這些很多很多的應用面。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問一下，這台AI機器人有沒有辦法導入更多學校？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這台機器人……"],["張委員雅琳：因為目前只有一個學校，未來有可能……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我覺得這是一個方向，如果未來……"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為我們既然講要母語教學，只有一台，太少了吧！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：也可以透過網站，就有很多東西是透過網站或者其他部分，因為這個牽扯到AI的硬體，進入學校，這個還要跟教育部什麼之類的要連結，看能不能把這個技術引進到他們常規性的教學工具及輔助，當然大方向來講，希望成功建立這個技術以後，能夠應用在其他各個部會的面向。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分的話，我們就來看看之後我們怎麼跟教育部討論，好不好？就未來的部分。","我覺得這件事情真的非常重要，因為從這幾張圖表，我們可以看到我們臺灣人的母語能力是迅速地流失，所以為什麼我會一直不停地強調我們的母語ChatGPT可不可以有更多的語言來支持，不管是學校裡的教學也好，或者是有沒有可能在生活裡面也可以來協助，像我自己33歲開始學臺語，如果當時有這個東西，其實對我來說也是非常有幫助，所以我想要知道目前TAIDE的GPT目標是希望可以提升它的等級到什麼樣子的等級，剛剛是說國小中高年級生的對話能力，我們有沒有可能把它提升到可以做臺語師資的能力呢？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個要仔細評估，這個是一個很大的方向……"],["張委員雅琳：這可不可以做一些評估，好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：要做到這一點，可能要怎麼樣的資源及各方面，但是可以做基本的溝通本身應該是最基本的目標，這個也是目前我們大概的初步成果，有這個成果以後，我們應該是往下精進。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我也是拜託副主委幫我們想辦法，就是除了臺語可以有基本的對話能力，其他的國家語言也都要有，好不好？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是、是，好。"],["張委員雅琳：好不好？大概是什麼時候可以做到，我們就會後討論，好不好？","再來，精準運科的部分，其實在107年的時候，我們有一個精準運動科學的研究專案計畫，當時就是奧運結束不久，大家都非常關注這件事情，當時國科會也編列了一個四年2.4億的研究計畫，所以讓我們現在在看棒球的時候，我們可以知道那個球現在投到哪一個位置，非常地有趣，也提供學校做智能羽球訓練，據我所知，這個訓練目前好像是已經結束了，也導入了商業化的使用，我現在收到的資訊是這樣，現在是商業化的使用，但是我希望運科不僅是要精準，還需要到普及，所以這樣子的計畫是不是可以落實到更多的基層訓練，讓更多的國中小青少年選手、運動員可以來做這樣子的科學訓練，這可不可行？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想這個要透過跨部會的落地……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：就核心的技術這邊發展出來，第一期的運科計畫已經出來，而且確實在某些關鍵的運動本身有幫助，所以如何……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，但是我們現在其實……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：可能我們和其他各個部會要一起來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們現在這十二個第二期計畫，像羽球，羽球的部分也是，還有像體操練習，因為體操其實是一個非常容易受到運動傷害的項目，這些東西是不是我們可以先找一些學校一起來做這些合作呢？就像新豐高中這樣子的案例，是不是可以找更多的中小學一起來合作呢？"],["蘇處長碩斌：報告委員，因為二期運科的一個目的真的就是委員所講的，要從運動的專業訓練導向全民，其實我們這邊的科研都要用實驗的概念在進行，所以第一階段在科研的部分都是以特定的學校，取得默契之後，進行實驗，可行、安全之後，才會做推廣，所以推廣應該是下一期的工作，這個一定會做。"],["張委員雅琳：是第三期嗎？所以我們還會有第三期，你指的下一期是第三期就對了？"],["蘇處長碩斌：我不能保證，但是我很期待有第三期。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這個部分我們是不是可以來思考規劃第三期？因為現在體育署的計畫雖然是有運科中心在做，可是效率實在是，目前來說每年1,000個，但我們現在總共已經有3萬5,000個體育班的學生，所以我還是非常希望我們可以跟體育署一起來討論，讓這個運科也要普及，讓更多的小孩可以去用比較安全而且比較科學化的訓練，不要在養成的過程之中就先受傷，這個部分我們是不是可以來跟體育署一起討論呢？"],["蘇處長碩斌：這一定的，本來就是會跟體育署一起討論，也跟委員報告，因為我們在做實驗的階段裡面一定要保證其安全性，像羽球，羽球是用感測器來測量到底能不能有效地增進效率，所以在實驗階段裡面其實是特定學校，等到下一期之後就會……"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在這十二個案子都是已經找好特定學校了，是嗎？"],["蘇處長碩斌：等到安全、商業化之後，其實就真的可以普及，因為一定要讓它成本降低，才有辦法普及。"],["張委員雅琳：對、對、對，我知道，抱歉，我再耽誤1分鐘的時間，就是我們現在這十二個案子裡面都已經找好學校了，是不是？"],["蘇處長碩斌：對、對、對……"],["張委員雅琳：都已經找好了……"],["蘇處長碩斌：因為是大學老師在做實驗，所以他有特定的實驗室，以及到實驗室以外會有特定的學校。"],["張委員雅琳：這些學校都是什麼樣子？是……"],["蘇處長碩斌：大概都跟地緣有關係……"],["張委員雅琳：跟地緣有關係。"],["蘇處長碩斌：清大就會找新竹的學校，成大就會找臺南附近的學校。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我希望各自詳細的學校，我們是不是可以知道它是屬於高中、國中，還是都是大學，因為這還是有差啦！基層訓練……"],["蘇處長碩斌：國中、高中居多。"],["張委員雅琳：國中、高中為主，是不是？"],["蘇處長碩斌：如果是專業訓練員，那就是成人。"],["張委員雅琳：都是大學生？"],["蘇處長碩斌：像拳擊，大概就不會有國小。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯、沒錯，有一些項目，像體操，應該是比較小就要開始，所以我想知道相關的……"],["蘇處長碩斌：體操，對，但因為我們這邊是在做監測，所以體操主要是以師大的唐嘉鴻選手為實驗對象。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。因為剛才有提到商業化使用，但是我覺得商業化對一般小學、中學來說，其實可能不太具備這樣的資源跟資金去做，所以我們可能還是要思考如何提供公益使用的部分，好不好？"],["蘇處長碩斌：其實那個……"],["張委員雅琳：還是目前已經有了？"],["蘇處長碩斌：羽球是在做智慧球場，球場的建置完成之後，可以省掉非常多的教練成本，這個以後一定會往各個學校去推廣，他們會接受的。"],["張委員雅琳：目前我們已經有這樣的推廣計畫，還是還沒有？"],["蘇處長碩斌：目前還沒建置完成，因為還要測試。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張雅琳委員，林副請回座。","現在休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：好，現在繼續開會。","接下來請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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件事情真的非常重要,因為從這幾張圖表我們可以看到就是我們人,台灣的這個母語,台灣人的母語的能力是迅速的流失。"},{"start":342.752,"end":364.893,"text":"所以為什麼我會一直不停地強調我們的母語CHAT GPT可不可以有更多的語言來去支持不管是學校裡在教學也好或者是說有沒有可能在生活裡面也可以來協助因為像我自己33歲開始學台語嘛如果當時有這東西其實對我來說也是非常有幫助啦所以我想要知道就是說我們目前啊這個的CHAT GPT這個台德的GPT抱歉"},{"start":365.914,"end":380.667,"text":"我們目標是希望可以提升到他的等級到什麼樣子的等級因為剛是說中高級的國小師資的能力國小中高年級生的對話能力我們有沒有可能把它提升到可以做台語師資的能力呢"},{"start":383.414,"end":397.19,"text":"這個要仔細評估這個都是一個很大的方向但是要做到這一點可能怎麼樣的資源跟各方面但是可以做基本的這些溝通本身應該是最基本的目標啦因為這個也是目前我們已經大概初步的成果那有這個成果以後我們應該是往下進進"},{"start":400.313,"end":400.553,"text":"金準運科"},{"start":416.48,"end":439.222,"text":"107年有一個精準運動科學的研究專案計畫因為當時奧運結束不久所以大家都非常關注這件事情那當時國科會也編列了一個4年的2.4億的研究計畫所以讓我們現在在看棒球的時候我們可以知道說那個球現在投到哪一個位置所以是非常的有趣然後也提供了學校做這個智能羽球訓練那據我所知"},{"start":440.823,"end":466.688,"text":"這個訓練目前好像是已經結束了然後也導入了商業化的使用我現在收到的資訊是這樣現在是商業化的使用但是我希望運科不僅只是要精準還需要到普及所以這樣子的計畫是不是可以落實到更多的基層訓練讓更多的國中小的青少年選手運動員可以來做到這樣子的一個這樣子的科學訓練這可不可行"},{"start":470.482,"end":486.508,"text":"我想跨部會這要透過跨部會的落地核心的技術這邊發展出來用這個第一期的運科計畫已經出來而且確實有幫助在某些關鍵的這個運動本身的這個幫忙所以如何變成可能要跟我們要其他各個部會要一起來"},{"start":487.549,"end":490.732,"text":"在12個第二期的計畫,像是羽球、體操等,我們可以先找一些學校來一起做這些?"},{"start":504.639,"end":531.775,"text":"合作呢?就像新豐高中這樣子的案例是不是可以找更多的中小學一起來合作呢?報告委員因為二期運課的一個目的真的就是委員所講的要從運動的專業訓練導向全民那其實我們這邊的科研都要用實驗的概念在進行所以第一階段在科研的部分都是以特定的學校然後取得默契之後進行實驗可行安全之後才會做推廣所以推廣應該是下一期的工作這個一定會做"},{"start":532.495,"end":555.475,"text":"是第三期嗎?說明還會有第三期嗎?你指的下一期是第三期就對了?我不能保證,但是我很期待有第三期對,因為這個部分我們是不是可以來思考把它規劃第三期因為你現在那個體育署的計畫他們雖然是有這個運科中心在做可是這個效率實在是目前來說每年一千個我們總共現在已經有三萬五千個體育班的學生所以我還是非常希望說"},{"start":556.135,"end":571.633,"text":"我們可以來跟體育署這邊一起來討論讓這個運動也要普及讓更多的小孩可以去用一個比較安全而且比較科學化的訓練不要在養成的過程之中就先受傷這部分我們是不是可以來跟體育署一起討論"},{"start":572.874,"end":596.993,"text":"本來就是會跟體育署一起討論那也跟委員報告就是因為我們在做實驗的階段裡面一定要保證它的安全性所以像羽球羽球是用監測器來測量說它到底能不能有效的增進它的一個效率那所以呢在實驗階段裡面其實是特定學校那等到下一期之後就會等到安全商業化之後其實就真的可以普及因為一定要讓它成本降低才有辦法普及"},{"start":597.173,"end":599.856,"text":"大學老師在做實驗所以他有特定的實驗室然後在以及到了實驗室以外會有特定的學校"},{"start":615.225,"end":615.625,"text":"主持人 張雅琳"},{"start":633.857,"end":635.799,"text":"提招主要是以次大的唐家宏選手做實驗對象"},{"start":652.279,"end":655.08,"text":"商業化對於一般小學或中學來說是不具備資源或資金去做所以我們還是要去思考如何提供公益使用"},{"start":667.981,"end":668.081,"text":"謝謝張雅琳"}]}},{"id":"151043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bfae7947a653f3b2ee63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a650347cd0a995e7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:46:45 - 10:56:53","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":608,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:56:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:46:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":534,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時46分）主席，我想要請陳代理部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：陳部長，你先來釐清一個事情，根據民報的報導，進口雞蛋跟整個銷毀的過程多花了納稅人八千多萬，但是你們澄清這些都沒有多花納稅人的錢，但是我們看到在中央畜產會的收入裡面，40.33%都是政府委辦的計畫，有將近52%是政府補助的計畫，所以這百分之九十二點多全部都是來自於政府、來自於人民的納稅錢，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，畜產會本身相關的這些計畫，有的部分是做產銷調節，還有一些畜舍改建，或者是由中央委託畜產會去做的，所以從整個的收入來講，大概就像這邊所說的，它每年……"],["謝委員衣鳯：都是政府補助跟政府委辦的嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：但是它也有自己收入的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：1億嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為它也有檢定，有自己收入的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以銷毀跟進口的8,000萬是自己的，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它所有處理雞蛋的費用，都是用它所謂的自有資金，因為它是財團法人，它會根據它相關的這些……"],["謝委員衣鳯：借錢嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，融資。"],["謝委員衣鳯：跟農業金庫借錢，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我們會根據它所支出的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：農業金庫是誰的？政府的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：廣義來講是這樣，但是因為它是自有資金去處理，然後我們針對各項的補助會根據它本身的採購行為來補助它的百分比……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還要再繼續擦屁股？你還要繼續幫他們擦屁股，是不是？這也不是你主政時候的事情。"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜產會本身就是負責產銷調節，我們也是希望大家一起努力，把這個產業做穩定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，我再問你，從過去以來，農業缺工的問題就很嚴重，今年在我們彰化已經面臨到非常嚴重的情況，我看到它工時可能都比7-ELEVEN的工時高了，但是還是找不到人，我們農業人口凋零以及農業缺工的問題，農業部怎麼解決？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想農業缺工一直是長期持續的問題，但是我們也針對一些策略把這個缺口降低，最新的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：怎麼樣降低？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個就是人力團的部分，有關人力團的部分，本身的47團裡面，他們能夠處理季節性的缺工……"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼我們彰化找不到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，現在人力團本身可能要有一個組，我們現在是透過農會，如果農會願意，我們會協助它成立一個人力團，甚至有一些外展的，就是外籍移工進來做農務的部分，總共有1萬2,000人，所以如果彰化地區那邊比較需要的時候，我們也會協助農會那邊去成立這樣的一個團來協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：等到需要再成立的時候，都已經來不及了，這種東西你一定要先成立。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，現在我們輔導處也積極的跟農會聯繫，因為它本身外展的部分都需要有住宿，還有一些管理，所以我們持續在跟農會聯繫，看適當的農會有這樣的條件，我們都會來協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有農民職災保險的部分呢？我們看到現在農民職災保險，你們預計要達到75%，可是現在離75%有多少？大概還有5萬，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：農民職業災害保險在新的辦法裡面，新加入農保的就是強制的，現在就是處理一些之前已經保險農保的部分，我們也一直強調，因為現在實際上從事農業的人口裡面，如果以農保90萬人左右，大概四成，大概36萬……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，我現在算的這個數字是以你們農業部所謂的農業人口來算的，112年的時候，你們的農業人口是多少？你們說是五十點多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：50.9。"],["謝委員衣鳯：50.9萬嘛！民國112年是50.9萬。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，50.9萬。"],["謝委員衣鳯：75%就是多少？38萬嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概36萬到38萬左右。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！我就說啦，你現在離那個目標還有5萬，你怎麼做？"],["陳代理部長駿季：其實我們持續的，特別是我們有農民學院，特別是青年農民他們的加保率，然後我們發現這個加保率裡面，不同年齡層其實都還差不了多少，就是百分之二十幾到30%，所以……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，你們是不是應該要放寬申請農業職災？你們在去年2023年的時候，提到在務農期間如果感染登革熱，不能工作第四天起，才可以申請農業職災保險，對於農民來講是不是太過嚴苛？你們是不是應該進一步，就是不要再以農民職災保險的因果關係為主，例如像噴灑農藥或熱衰竭，例如像這樣感染登革熱算不算不能從農、算不算是農民職災保險的範圍？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，其實登革熱那個時候，我們也主動地為農民去爭取，登革熱本身不是直接的職業傷害，但是我們也積極地去爭取，把它納入我們的農業職業災害的保險範圍，這是第一步。接下來，委員所說的，我非常認同，有很多起始點的部分跟它樣態的部分，我覺得我們可以有精進的地方。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，我們今天討論的是野保法，我想要請問，在2023年我們所要保育的臺灣黑熊受傷的13例，大概有11例都是跟人為的狩獵有關係，你要怎麼樣降低這樣的狩獵行為？因為這些人的狩獵行為，導致這些保育動物進入了民眾的生活居住區，這過去也有發生，未來也有可能發生，對於把牠引回去原本的棲息地，你們有什麼樣進步的技術？不能夠又是勞師動眾、勞民傷財啊！是不是？同時也會因為民眾害怕這樣的保育類動物，而影響到保育類動物的生活權。還有，你怎麼樣維護民眾的居住權？這是兩點，這個都要共同的處理，這樣才能夠讓野保法即便是今天修法通過之後，我們能夠做到保護我們的保育類動物，以及能夠讓民眾的居住環境也有安全，因為畢竟在臺灣，例如黑熊或者是過去的猩猩、狒狒等等，都是對於民眾的安全有疑慮的野生動物，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我要跟委員說明，動物本身的權利跟居住權會有一個平衡，所以在野放的時候，我們就會特別注意到相關的這些居住的場所，而不是我捕獲了，當牠復原了以後，我隨便就去野放，這樣可能會侵害了一些附近的居住權，所以未來我想我們會在這個部分找到一個更適當的平衡點。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，你這個講法太籠統了，我是說你們的技術，你們到底對於引導野生動物或者是你進一步的措施，不要讓這些野保的管理人員……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，關於執行面是不是可以請我們署長說明一下？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，請說。"],["林署長華慶：我跟委員報告，黑熊的族群是逐漸在擴張，所以牠進入到人的居住空間，跟人越來越接近，這個是未來我們一定要面對的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！因為臺灣本來就是很狹小。"],["林署長華慶：我們現在做的就是在這兩者之間能夠達到衡平，所以我們會推改良式獵具，這是第一個。第二個，我們在黑熊野放的時候，也都會徵詢當地社區或者部落居民的意見，他們同意，我們才會這樣做，我們也會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是牠是移動式的，牠自己也會移動嘛！對不對？"],["林署長華慶：對，牠會移動，所以我們要面對這個事實。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以對於我們的技術、我們相關的管理技術還要增進，甚至牠如果進入人類的居住區，怎麼樣……"],["林署長華慶：我們會預警，我們透過一些……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，預警。還有可以捕捉牠，再把牠送回到原本的棲息地。"],["林署長華慶：對，我們現在在花蓮……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個過程都要有整個配套，不要等到發生的時候導致居民的恐慌、疑慮。"],["林署長華慶：沒錯，我們就是朝委員……"],["謝委員衣鳯：甚至對於保育類動物，也沒有辦法真正對牠進行保護，是不是？"],["林署長華慶：是，沒錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["林署長華慶：我們在努力朝這個方向。"],["主席：好，謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接下來我們請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.829718750000005,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.93596875,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.11846875,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.20659375000001,"end":98.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.34534375000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.12971875000001,"end":101.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.04034375,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.44409375000001,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.88596875,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.42784375000002,"end":138.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.38971875000001,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.51159375,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.74659375000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.31596875,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.42971875,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.55596875,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.80471875,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.50909375,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.25034375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.93346875,"end":170.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.36721875,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.23909375000002,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.31909375,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.14471875,"end":192.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.33846875,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.32596875000002,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.00909375,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.58284375000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.59971875000002,"end":223.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.61659375000002,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.11846875,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.57721875000001,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":239.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":249.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.59596875000003,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.12721875000003,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.07221875000002,"end":255.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.68721875000003,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.49721875,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.44596875,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.33034375,"end":286.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.65034375,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.76784375,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.18971875,"end":280.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.82159375000003,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.90596875,"end":286.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.93971875,"end":287.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.15034375,"end":291.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.45784375,"end":293.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.83721875000003,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.40221875000003,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.34284375000004,"end":299.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.59159375,"end":304.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.72596875,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.05471875,"end":317.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.92221875,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.56721875,"end":345.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.54346875000005,"end":338.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.59409375,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.64471875000004,"end"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案件,不論是在他的收入裡面,都是40.33%都是政府委辦的計劃,有百分之將近52%是政府補助的計劃,所以這92.多%全部都是來自於政府,來自於人民的納稅錢,是不是?"},{"start":68.187,"end":90.885,"text":"我跟委員說明,續產會本身的相關的這些計畫的,它有的部分是做產業調節還有一些續設改建,或者是由中央委託續產會去做的所以從整個的收入來講,就是大概就是就像這邊所說的就是說都是政府補助跟政府"},{"start":91.325,"end":117.179,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":117.879,"end":131.87,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":133.599,"end":134.2,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":150.672,"end":169.069,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項。今年在我們彰化已經面臨到非常嚴重。我看到它工時可能都比7-11的工時高了,但是還是找不到人。我們農業人口凋零以及農業缺工的問題農業部怎麼解決?"},{"start":170.39,"end":189.424,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":190.625,"end":215.26,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。為什麼我們彰化找不到?現在就是說,人力團本身可能要有一個組。我們現在是透過農會,如果農會願意的話,我們會協助他成立一個人力團。甚至有一些外展的,就是外籍移工進來做農務的部分,總共有一萬兩千人。所以說,如果彰化地區那邊有比較需要的時候,我們也會來協助農會那邊去成立這樣的一個團來協助。"},{"start":218.382,"end":232.559,"text":"等到需要再成立的時候都已經來不及了,這種東西你一定要先成立。我知道,我們也會像我們輔導書積極的跟農會,因為它本身的外展的部分就需要有住宿還有一些管理,所以我們持續在跟農會,看適當的農會有這樣的條件我們都會來協助。"},{"start":235.527,"end":255.439,"text":"還有農民職災保險的部分我們看到了現在農民職災保險你們預計是要達到75%可是現在離75%有多少大概還有5萬農民職業災保險在新的辦法裡面先加入農保的就是強制的"},{"start":256.544,"end":281.85,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":288.118,"end":304.075,"text":"五十點九萬五十點九萬那75%就是多少?三十八萬嗎?三十六到三十八左右啦對啊那我就說啦你現在還離那個有五萬那你怎麼做?"},{"start":304.956,"end":321.89,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案：一、審查：一、二十七條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":322.27,"end":323.211,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":345.683,"end":364.142,"text":"就是不要再以主要是農民職災保險的因果關係例如像什麼噴灑農藥或熱衰竭那例如像這樣子感染登革熱算不算不能重農算不算是農民那個農民職災保險我跟委員說明其實登革熱那個時候"},{"start":365.603,"end":387.429,"text":"我們也主動的為農民去爭取其實在登革熱本身他不是直接的職業傷害那我們也去積極的去爭取打納入我們的農業職業災害的保險的範圍那這是第一步那接下來委員所說的我非常認同就是說有很多那個起始點的部分跟他的樣態的部分我覺得我們可以有精進的地方"},{"start":388.363,"end":413.563,"text":"還有我們今天討論的是野保法那我想要請問在2023年如果就是說我們所要保育的這個台灣黑熊所受傷的十三例全部大概有十一例都是跟人為的狩獵是有關係的那你要怎麼樣子降低這樣子的狩獵行為以及"},{"start":414.974,"end":416.035,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":425.157,"end":451.951,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項。此事已發生,未來也有可能發生。那你們對於把他引回去原本的棲息地,你們有什麼樣子進步的技術?不能夠又是勞師動眾、勞民傷財啊,是不是?那這樣子也會影響民眾,因為害怕這樣子保育類動物而影響到"},{"start":453.111,"end":474.386,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．一、審查．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第"},{"start":476.207,"end":483.992,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案案。 bicyn 沈 沈 沈 沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈沈"},{"start":504.404,"end":514.957,"text":"當我補貨了以後當他復原了以後我就隨便的去做野放那這樣的可能會侵害了一些附近的這些居住權所以我們未來我想我們會在這個部分找到一個更適當的一個平衡點"},{"start":516.065,"end":516.566,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":537.301,"end":560.163,"text":"我跟委員報告那個黑熊的族群是逐漸在擴張所以他進入到人跟人越來越接近這個是未來我們一定要面對我們現在做的就是在這兩者之間能夠達到橫評所以我們會推改良式列舉第一個第二個我們在黑熊野放的時候也都會徵詢當地社區或者是部落居民的意見他們同意我們才會這樣子做"},{"start":560.623,"end":561.204,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":579.14,"end":605.242,"text":"對,疫情還有可以捕捉他,然後再把他回到他原本的棲息地。這個過程你都要有整個配套,不要發生的時候才導致於居民的恐慌疑慮,那甚至對於我們保育的這個保育類動物也沒有辦法真正的對他進行保護啊,是不是?我們在努力朝這個方向。"},{"start":608.221,"end":608.583,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b8276e96cc98bb9f2e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a606b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:38:01 - 10:46:35","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":514,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:46:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:38:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時38分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你應該知道本席非常關心農業跟漁業，我想請問部長，特定漁業證照與船員手冊都有期限，目前的期限是幾年？好，你不知道，5年！這兩種證照其實就好像是我們的駕照或者是護照一樣，是漁民一種資格的認定，或者是特定區域從事農業的一種許可，但是最近有非常多漁民向本席反映，這兩種證照的有效期限太短，譬如說特定漁業證照，不曉得部長是否知道漁業證照裡面會註明的內容是什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我不是很瞭解，是不是可以請署長說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒關係，我知道，我告訴你，漁業證照裡面會載明其漁船名、船體的各項數據，包括母港跟國際呼號等等，署長，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：這些事項其實並不會太頻繁的變更，假設變更也必須要主動申報，然後換照；也就是說，漁民可能經營了幾十年，但他的漁業證照內容是不會改變的，船員手冊也是一樣，就像一個身分證或者是護照一樣，受訓之後基本資料基本上都是固定的，其實沒有必要那麼頻繁地更換，針對這一點，不曉得部長怎麼看？你覺得5年就更換會不會太短？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我個人覺得如果它的異動不是那麼頻繁，然後我們也確保又回到我們發證的原始精神，如果說不違反這個原始精神的話，做適度的放寬我是覺得應該可行的。"],["張委員嘉郡：太好了！真的，部長，我代表漁民感謝你，因為他們真的很忙，他們每天要看天吃飯、要出海捕魚，然後還要想一下子他要去換照，其實也增加很多基層公務人員的辛苦跟麻煩，所以5年這個時間真的說長沒有很長。比照護照好了，我們以前出國的護照才6年，可是我們臺灣慢慢穩定之後，其實那個基礎內容也不會改變，所以我們的護照就改成10年，不用那麼密集的更換，然後勞民傷財，也擾動基層公務人員的業務，讓它變得很繁雜，又很吃緊、吃重。所以我建議，既然部長今天支持，是不是可以儘速修改，是不是把5年延成10年，比照護照一般，讓這些漁民可以減少這些例行性的行政作業，然後對基層的公務人員也有助益？部長，是不是同意？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們會來檢討，特別是我剛才講的，對於裡面的安全性，我們如果能夠克服，包括回到我們發證的原始精神，哪一些該注意的我們去做檢討，檢討的時候才會去思考怎麼樣放寬跟放寬的年限。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，因為剛才署長有講，就是我講的內容，他的漁業證照內容就差不多是這樣啊！像漁船名，他如果改漁船名，他一定要主動申報；還有他的船體各項數據，基本上這些是不可能有什麼特別變動的；還有母港，他要改母港，他也要主動申報；包括他要改他的國際呼號，他也要主動申報啊！這些都是重大議題，他如果沒有主動申報是違法的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員，有一個重要的部分是船舶安全檢查，這個是不是可以容許署長講一下。"],["張委員嘉郡：好。"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，特定漁業執照會5年為一個期限，最主要是搭配我們船舶安全檢查也是5年為一個期限，我們要確定這個船舶是安全的，才能夠發給他特定漁業執照，這是第一個。第二個就是船員證這個部分，通常也是涉及到安全性，因為依照STCW-F，就是漁船船員的部分，必定要有一個期限、要有出海這些事實……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，包括護照也是，護照有效期限一開始最早只是1年，後來又放寬為3年，後來又變成6年，現在變成10年，所以這不是沒有檢討的空間，一定不要再繼續勞民傷財了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們會來檢討，但是船員證跟護照是不一樣的概念，因為船員證本身，他出海以後，他的技能、他的安全，我們一定要特別考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點，我拜託部長還有署長，是不是儘速研議能不能相對的放寬，讓這些漁民不用那麼操煩他必須有這麼多繁瑣的行政工作？","接下來我想要再繼續請教部長，明年紐西蘭的液態乳品就可以零關稅進口，這一點不曉得部長知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員嘉郡：那麼你知道國內的酪農已經深感威脅嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們持續一直在跟酪農做相關的溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想要請部長看一下這個圖，你這邊應該有。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["張委員嘉郡：上面是不是寫「FRESH WHOLE MILK」？是不是？它的意思是不是它是鮮乳？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：可是你看，紐西蘭進口鮮乳的保存期限是90天，另外這一個也是標示鮮乳，它的保存期限是85天，這跟我們國內鮮乳的認定，保存期限只有13天，差了數倍，為什麼他們可以標示為鮮乳？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，整個鮮乳的保存期限是製造廠商根據它本身牛奶的消毒條件，我也瞭解民眾的認知，不同殺菌方法可能保存期限會不一樣，現在比較爭議是「鮮乳」這兩個字，我們也一直在跟酪農協會以及消費者做溝通，我們也提供相關的建議給衛福部，希望變成「長效乳」之類的名詞，以區隔「鮮乳」。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點我也非常讚許部長，一定要趕快把我們主管機關農業部的立場說明白，我們是支持我們的酪農，我們是支持標示鮮乳跟保久乳一定要分開，讓它識別清楚，讓消費者也清楚，否則這是在誤導消費者，雖然這件事情是衛福部要去調整的，但是主管機關農業部的立場，你這樣鮮明地表達出來，這對酪農就是一個強心劑，讓我們的酪農知道至少我們的農業部主管機關是支持我們臺灣酪農的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們針對酪農的輔導其實持續在做，特別是從今年開始，我們跟行政院提供了一個酪農產業的振興方案，裡面就有很多的措施，從生產面到產品面的區隔……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個本席瞭解，可是這個提案真的有點慢，酪農業汰換老弱乳牛等等，從去年研議到現在都還沒有辦法實施，到底是為什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，改名詞不是我今天改了，大家同意就改了，因為它牽扯到很多國際貿易的接軌，所以有很多必須去調合的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個我完全同意，但是我要求部長、要求我們農業主管機關一定要明確地要求衛福部增加產品的辨識度，讓消費者能夠更客觀的選擇。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會持續跟衛福部做溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。我們在邱志偉委員發言結束之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6890937500000001,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.687843750000003,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.840968750000002,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.781593750000003,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.040968750000005,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.46596875,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.229093750000004,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.494093750000005,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.02971875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.94409375000001,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.44909375,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.18159375,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.98909375000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.89909375,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.37784375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.42846875,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.52971875,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.73221875000002,"end":129.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.91784375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.96846875,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.00221875,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.58471875,"end":195.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.70096875000002,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.07159375,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.32034375,"end":203.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.59409375,"end":214.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.14096875,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.69346875000002,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":242.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.52034375000002,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.16159375,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.42221875,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.75971875000002,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.77659375000002,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.08409375000002,"end":264.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.37784375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.78096875,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.50534375,"end":287.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.73284375000003,"end":292.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.36909375,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.68971875,"end":293.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.02721875000003,"end":298.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.88721875000005,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.07659375000003,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.91596875000005,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.97034375000004,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.36659375,"end":333.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.68284375,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.68346875000003,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.76346875,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.30284375,"end":340.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.23096875000005,"end":344.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.39909375,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.09034375000005,"end":362.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.17471875,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.18221875,"end":355.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.42159375,"end":363.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.19346875,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.49284375,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.61909375000005,"end":378.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.73971875,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.42721875,"end":394.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.41659375,"end":404.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.97221875,"end":403.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start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案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":55.256,"end":58.98,"text":"不曉得部長知道漁業證照裡面會註明的內容是什麼?這個漁業證照裡面會載明其漁船名然後船體的各項數據包括母港跟國際呼號等等,署長對不對?"},{"start":78.499,"end":105.096,"text":"那這些事項其實是並不會太平凡的變更假設變更也必須要主動申報然後來換照那也就是說漁民可能他經營了幾十年他的漁業證照內容是不會百變的團員手冊也是一樣就像一個身分證或者是護照一樣那送訊之後基本資料基本上都是固定的"},{"start":106.076,"end":128.106,"text":"其實沒有必要那麼頻繁的來更換所以這一次連部長不曉得部長怎麼看你覺得五年這樣子更換會不會太短?我個人覺得齁如果說他的他的異動不是那麼頻繁然後我們也確保又回到我們發正的原始精神如果說不違反這個原始精神的話做適度的放寬我是我是覺得應該可行的"},{"start":129.52,"end":131.542,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":151.559,"end":161.047,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":176.4,"end":199.17,"text":"所以我建議既然部長今天支持是不是可以儘速的來修改是不是5年把它延程10年比照互照一般讓這些漁民可以減少這些例行性的行政作業然後對基層的公務人員也有注意?部長是否有同意?我想我們會來檢討那特別是我剛才講的就是說我們這個"},{"start":200.37,"end":214.387,"text":"條文修正草案案的安全性我們如果能夠克服包括說回到原始精神我們發正的原始精神那哪一些該注意的我們去做檢討那檢討的時候才會去思考說怎麼樣放寬跟放寬的一個年限是因為"},{"start":215.691,"end":225.114,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":243.544,"end":244.865,"text":"他如果沒有阻斷申報是違法的。"},{"start":264.483,"end":266.525,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項及其安全性等條文修正草案件事項及其安全性"},{"start":285.606,"end":309.882,"text":"然後後來又放寬了三年後來又變成六年現在變成十年所以這不是沒有檢討的空間嗎所以一定不要再繼續饒民傷財了我跟委員說明我們會來檢討但是漁船證跟船員證跟護照是不一樣的概念因為船員證本身他出海以後他的技能他的安全是這一點我拜託部長還有署長是不是儘速的來研議能不能"},{"start":315.645,"end":329.092,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":339.558,"end":341.679,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":367.708,"end":370.589,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":392.118,"end":414.977,"text":"那我也瞭解就是說民眾的認知就是說同樣的一個殺菌不同殺菌方法可能保存區間會不一樣那現在比較爭議的是鮮乳這兩個字所以我們也一直在跟弱農協會跟我們的消費者在做溝通我們也提供了相關的建議給衛福部希望變成長效乳之類的名詞以驅革鮮乳"},{"start":416.938,"end":434.388,"text":"這一點我也非常讚許部長一定要趕快把我們主管機關農業部的立場說明白我們是支持我們的弱農我們是支持標示鮮乳跟保酒乳一定要分開讓他識別清楚讓消費者也清楚啊否則這是在誤導消費者雖然這件事情是這個衛福部要去調整的"},{"start":440.871,"end":450.013,"text":"但是主管機關農業部的立場你這樣子鮮明的表達出來這對弱農就是一個強心劑就是讓我們的弱農知道說至少我們的農業部主管機關是支持我們台灣弱農的我想我們針對弱農的一個輔導其實持續在做特別是在從今年開始我們向跟行政院提供了一個弱農的一個產業的一個振興方案那裡面就有很多的測試從生產面到是這個本席有了解我就是說"},{"start":470.558,"end":490.339,"text":"可是這個提案真的有點慢欸就是弱農業、汰換這個老弱乳牛等等從去年研議到現在都還沒有辦法實施到底是為什麼我跟委員說明齁就是改名詞不是說我今天改了大家同意就改了因為它牽扯到很多國際貿易的接軌齁所以有很多必須去調和的"},{"start":491.921,"end":509.382,"text":"條文修正草案．一、二、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"}]}},{"id":"151041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b973f6dd2381127ad039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a636b710c635f0fc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:38:33 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10:49:22","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":649,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:49:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:38:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時38分）謝謝召委，請副主委。"],["主席：好，有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員早安。"],["陳委員秀寳：副主委早，今天副主委這個專報是「國家科技發展策略與布局」，那您在報告的時候也是四平八穩，內容也很豐富，但是美中不足的是針對晶創臺灣方案，你們只有在第6頁人工智慧中短短幾個字提到，「為推動各產業，導入生成式AI，113年起將結合晶創臺灣方案的布局，結合生成式AI加晶片帶動產業創新，進行全面性的規劃跟推動」，就這麼簡單，我想請教，晶創臺灣方案這個這麼重大的計畫，為什麼你們這麼簡省、這麼簡略？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想也許可以請這邊來回答，就是我們儘量在這邊再補充說明。"],["林副執行秘書明仁：謝謝委員，我想可能因為篇幅的關係，國科會實在做了太多的東西，晶創臺灣其實今年是第一年，十年3,000億，第一年是120億，四支主軸的計畫其實……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們的報告沒有限制字數吧？為什麼說因為篇幅的關係，沒有辦法放進去？這個我不太能接受。"],["林副執行秘書明仁：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：今年我們晶創臺灣方案編列120億，占今年科技預算的7.6%，以10年3,000億元平均每年300億，明年規劃的預算大概以1,800億的這個基礎來算，占比高達16.7%，當然相對於之前一些比較沒有那麼宏觀整合科技產業的政策來相比較，這次推出的這個晶創臺灣方案的政策焦點比較集中，投入的時間跟力道也比較充足，是值得贊許的。但是既然我們這個可以這樣子做，我們也有這樣子的規劃，為什麼你們不要明白地把它再說得明白一點，為什麼要這麼簡略，我的問題是這樣。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想這個也許是我們的疏忽，我們應該更具體地、更細節地來跟委員報告，這是我們應該改進的。如果未來或是我們會後是不是可以提供比較完整的這個……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，就麻煩您了。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，這個我們可以立刻提供，其實是有非常細緻的規劃在這裡面，實在是非常抱歉。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝副主委，我也要求這個一定要落實執行。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：你說會後會提供我資料，這樣就請再提供給我辦公室。生成式AI是一個急需投入很大資源的計畫，高度地整合上下游新興領域，所以即使要使既存有規模的系統公司或是IC設計公司要投入這樣快速發展的領域，政策的意向一定要輔佐以配合的作為，所以這個你們需要提供、需要做的部分你們自己也應該知道在裡面投入的、所需要做的投入。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分我要再請教，目前已經揭露的政策宣告裡面，看不到建立上下游協作平台，以及是否協助建立國際統一標準這個作法、這些必要的關鍵作為，為什麼你們沒有揭露這樣的訊息？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：因為生成式AI其實也才新出來沒有多久，我們就趕快組織資源，包含之前的那個TAIDE的model，也就是建立自己的 trustworthy model，然後今（113）年開始也就有一個大概1億元的生成式AI百工百業導入生成式AI的部分，包括一些人才的培育、產業應用的擴散，當然就是開發建AI的平台，這個其實都正在走，不會因為計畫才剛開始……"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分你們也有資料可以補充給我嗎？"],["林副執行秘書明仁：有。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那就麻煩了。另外我再請教，美國國家科學基金會的技術創新與合作夥伴署來拜會我們國科會，交流臺美科技新創合作的機會。德國的教研部官員跟有德國人工智慧教父之稱的華斯特也來拜會我們國科會。這邊要請教，臺灣跟美國的技術創新與合作夥伴署的跨領域協作培育創新技術的生態系統，以及創新、創業、資源布局，我們目前有什麼成效？還有就是說，臺灣跟德國的AI應用在半導體先進製造以及自駕車的這個合作，我們現在的進程如何？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我簡單先說，美國這次來的NSF這個創新技術署，它事實上也是最近才成立的，它也是針對美國本來基礎科學研究的NSF，事實上是創立了一個希望科學跟創新技術落地的這個關係，所以這個是它第一次來，細節的部分我可以請我們處長……"],["陳委員秀寳：請簡短地說明一下。"],["許處長增如：報告委員，我們談的時候，因為兩方的NSF跟NSTC都有推動這個科研創業，所以主要是針對未來新興產業的布局，所以它有提到說，因為美國在製造的部分比較缺乏，所以它也希望幫他們的學者可以來臺灣找合作的機會，所以我們的學者其實也很希望能去海外募資、拓展海外市場，所以我們可能會簽一個雙方合作的合約，作為雙方共同補助的對接。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以現在會先簽一個合約？"],["許處長增如：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：在為未……"],["許處長增如：未來在這個過去臺美科技合作的架構底下。"],["陳委員秀寳：在德國的這個部分呢？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想，也許我比較綜合性地來回答，德國最近其實不只剛剛委員提到的這個單位有來，還有很多包括Dresden、Saxony這些州的人都有來，他們中央跟地方的人都有來，針對半導體的部分擴到很大；還有鋰電池的部分事實上也合作很密切，我們也跟德國簽了STA，所以事實上科技的協定都已經在了，現在等於是我們針對幾個重要的項目，還有氫能的部分也是個非常重要的項目，所以我們已經跟不同的國家訂定了很清楚的科技研究合作的戰略。因為我們臺灣人才也有限，不可能所有國家、所有題目都做……"],["陳委員秀寳：副主委，你也一份資料給我好了，因為我的時間……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，這個部分我也許會把我們跟德國之間合作的重點是什麼，我們可以……"],["陳委員秀寳：再提供一份資料給我辦公室。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員秀寳：除了這個科技發展的策略、我們國家未來發展的方向之外，其實我們現在的民眾生活日常，AI也已經是無所不在了，在這邊我要跟您請教，生成式AI以我們現在國內對AI的監管，生成式AI除了文字之外，現在很多線上的軟體都有提供生成圖片甚至是影片的服務，行政院在去年8月31號的時候有一個國科會擬定的使用生成式AI的參考指引，但是這個指引的對象其實是針對行政院以及所屬機關，而且主要規範是在生成文字的部分。副主委您覺得，以現在AI技術這麼發展、這麼進步，你們所規範的這些內容是足夠的嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前這個指引當然是第一步，就是我們先指引、後立法，所以立法才是真正的目標。我們主委在上次備詢的時候也很清楚地指出來，我們希望在年底的時候有一個第一步的草案。"],["陳委員秀寳：年底嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，年底。"],["陳委員秀寳：歐盟在上週二（4月2號）已經通過AI監管的立法，他們建立了一個統一的法律框架來維護，不管是隱私、反歧視、消費者保護等權利，同時它也規範了AI開發商必須要有健全的數據管理人工監督機制以及全面的風險評估，還有相關的問責制度。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：他們有設立一個AI辦公室來確保AI法規在各地都能夠一致地執行，而且為公民提供投訴及尋求補救的管道。副主委您剛剛說，希望在年底我們AI的基本法會有進展，我們是以怎樣的方向，會採歐盟的這些來作參考嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想歐盟它涵蓋的範圍非常廣，從最基本的到包括我剛剛講的產業，然後提供跟社會溝通的這個部分都有，我們也會朝這個方向來思考，因為歐盟本身也是經過很長的溝通，提供我們經驗，它可以縮短我們的時間，所以這個非常重要。"],["陳委員秀寳：副主委，因為其實AI的技術和它的運用也愈來愈廣……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：它變化也快。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在包括連手機都已經配備AI科技了，不管是即時通話的翻譯、以圖搜尋，還有生成式相片。當AI生成式圖片很容易就可以產生的時候，相關的監管就非常地重要，也有這個必要性。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：目前AI假圖片、假影片在社群平台上面氾濫，使民眾經常被誤導或是誤入詐騙的陷阱，所以在這邊我也要建議國科會，是不是也要研議我們能夠在AI基本法裡面加入關於社群平台或新聞有使用AI生成的影像時，應該就像我投影片上面這樣子的標示，它應該有一個特定的標記，讓民眾能夠透過這個標記、這個註記能夠瞭解這個影像是不是AI生成的，這個你們可以放進去嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：可以，這個我們……"],["陳處長國樑：跟委員報告，AI基本法它有一個框架式的架構，它會影響到後面的一些作用法，像委員剛剛提的這些都要放在相關的作用法裡面，在細節裡面去訂定。"],["陳委員秀寳：應該要規定有這樣的註記，讓民眾可以辨識。我們在AI基本法通過前的這個過渡，也希望國科會跟數位部這邊來合作，是不是我們可以研議，就是有沒有可以辨識AI生成影像的軟體，或是如果說有造成民眾疑慮的AI影像、圖片在社群平台流傳的時候，你們就應該即時地來協助辨識、來釐清，讓民眾知道這是假影片、假消息，不會讓民眾有恐慌，這個部分你們可以做嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，我們應該積極跟其他部會一起合作來解決這個問題，因為這是跨部會的，有很多問題……"],["陳委員秀寳：其實AI快速地發展，我們也非常擔憂，它技術進展得那麼快，我們的法規跟不跟得上，來不來得及規範它，但是就是因為怕它的技術進展太快，我們來不及規範它，我們更不能遲疑也更不能停留。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我覺得我們儘速地建立這個框架，才是我們對AI發展負責任的態度，這個部分希望你們也儘快，相關的這些規劃也都要做，好嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，整個治理框架建立起來是非常重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，林副請回。","我們再來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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進創台灣方案這個這麼重大的計畫為什麼你這麼簡審這麼簡略我想也許可以請這邊來回答就是說我們盡量在這邊再補充說明"},{"start":61.546,"end":79.608,"text":"謝謝委員我想可能因為篇幅的關係因為實在國會做太多的東西那金創台灣其實就是十年第一年三千億碼第一年是一百二十億那你四支主軸的計畫你們的報告沒有限制字數吧為什麼說篇幅的關係沒有辦法放進去這個我不太能接受來"},{"start":80.609,"end":96.662,"text":"今年我們金創台灣的這個金創台灣方案編列120億那佔今年科技預算的百分之7.6那以10年300億平均每年以10年3000億元平均每年300億明年的這個規劃的預算大概1800億來算這個基礎來算是高達佔比是16.7那"},{"start":102.586,"end":121.211,"text":"當然這個相對於說之前我們一些比較沒有那麼宏觀整合科技產業這個政策來相比較這次推出了這個金創台灣方案的這個政策焦點比較集中那投入的時間跟力道也比較充足是值得讚許的但是既然我們這個可以這樣子做我們也有這樣子規劃為什麼你們不要明白的把它再說的明白一點為什麼要這麼簡略我的問題是這樣"},{"start":128.866,"end":154.858,"text":"我想這個是也許我們的疏忽我們應該是更具體的更細節的本身來跟委員報告這個是我們應該改進那如果未來或者是我們會後是不是可以提供比較完整的這個報告就麻煩您了對對對這個我們可以立刻提供那其實是有非常細緻的這個謝謝副主委我也要求說這個一定要落實執行那你說要會後提供我資料就請在提供我的辦公室"},{"start":155.838,"end":183.18,"text":"生產式AI是一個急需投入很大資源的這樣子的一個計畫那高度的整合上下游行新領域所以即使就是說要是既存有規模的系統公司或是IC設計公司要投入這樣的快速的發展領域呢政策的意向跟一定要輔佐以配合的作為所以這個部分呢你們需要提供的你們需要做的部分你們自己也應該知道說在裡面投入的需要所需要的做的投入"},{"start":183.78,"end":184.02,"text":"陳教授"},{"start":200.154,"end":227.906,"text":"因為深層式AI其實也是才新出來沒有多久那我們就趕快組織資源那包含之前的那個台德的那個model就建立自己的trustworthy model然後今年也一一三開始也就有一個大概一億元的這個深層式AI百工百業導入深層式AI的部分那包括一些這個人才的培育那產業應用的擴散那當然就是開發建AI的平台"},{"start":228.406,"end":230.948,"text":"美國國家科學基金會的技術創新與合作夥伴組來拜會我們國科會來交流臺美科技新創合作的機會德國的教研部官員跟"},{"start":252.303,"end":279.529,"text":"有德國人工智慧教父之稱的華斯特．也來拜會我們國科會那這邊要請教台灣跟美國的技術創新與合作夥伴屬的跨領域協作培育創新技術的生態系統以及創新創業資源布局我們目前我們有什麼成效還有就是說台灣跟德國的AI應用在半導體先進製造以及自駕車這個合作我們現在進程如何"},{"start":281.372,"end":297.49,"text":"我簡單先說是美國這次NSF這個創新技術署來他事實上也是最近才成立的他也是針對美國是本來基礎科學研究的NSF他事實上是創立了一個希望科學跟創新技術落地這個關係所以這個是他第一次這次來我們細節可以請我們處長"},{"start":300.113,"end":300.333,"text":"內景簡短"},{"start":329.672,"end":334.876,"text":"未來在這個過去臺美科技合作架構底下在德國這個部分呢德國部分可能要問德國的部分我想也許我比較綜合性的來回答跟德國因為德國最近其實不只剛剛委員提到的這個單位其實還有很多包括是Dresden這個部分的州Saxon這些州都有來他們中央跟地方都有來那針對半導體的部分擴大很大"},{"start":357.512,"end":357.532,"text":"﹚陳秀寳﹚"},{"start":375.862,"end":378.083,"text":"除了科技發展策略及國家未來發展的方向之外其實現在民眾生活日常AI已經無所不在在這邊我要跟您請教"},{"start":401.089,"end":417.895,"text":"生成式AI以我們現在國內對於AI的監管生成式AI除了文字之外現在很多線上的軟體都有提供生成圖片甚至影片這個服務那行政院在去年8月31號的時候有一個擬定的就是國科會擬定的一個使用生成式AI的參考指引"},{"start":418.855,"end":420.858,"text":"指引是針對對向行政院及所屬機關（主要規範是在生成文字的部分（副主任您覺得目前AI技術這麼進步（規範的內容是足夠的嗎?"},{"start":435.519,"end":453.992,"text":"目前這個指引當然是第一步就是我們先指引後立法所以立法還是真正的目標我們主委是在上次備詢的時候也很清楚的指出來我們希望在年底的時候有一個第一步的草案歐盟在上週二在上個禮拜4月2號已經通過AI監管的立法"},{"start":454.452,"end":470.458,"text":"他們建立一個統一的法律的框架來維護不管是隱私、反歧視、消費者保護等權利同時他也規範AI開發商必須要有健全的數據管理、人工監督機制以及全面的風險評估還有相關的問責制度他們有設立一個AI辦公室來確保AI法規在各地都能夠有一致的執行而且為公民提供投訴及尋求補救的管道"},{"start":481.082,"end":508.397,"text":"副主委您剛剛說我們希望在年底呢我們的AI的基本法會有進展那我們是以怎樣的方向會採歐盟的這些來做參考嗎我想歐盟它涵蓋的範圍非常廣從最基本的到包括剛剛講的產業然後提供跟社會的溝通的這個部分都有那我們也會朝這個方向來思考因為歐盟本身它也是經由很長的溝通提供我們經驗那它可以縮短我們的時間所以這個非常重要副主委"},{"start":508.757,"end":527.913,"text":"因為其實AI技術它的運用也越來越多那現在手機包括連手機都有經驗配搭AI科技不管是即時通話的翻譯以圖搜尋還有生成式相片那當AI生成式圖片很容易就可以產生的時候相關的監管就非常的重要有這個必要性"},{"start":528.613,"end":535.077,"text":"目前 AI 假圖片、假影片在社群平台上氾濫．使民眾經常被誤導或是會誤入這個詐騙的陷阱所以這邊我要建議國科會是不是也要研議我們能夠在 AI 基本法裡面加入關於說社群平台或新聞有使用 AI 是生成的影像的時候"},{"start":548.226,"end":548.426,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":565.623,"end":586.783,"text":"那AI基本法它有一個框架式的一個架構它後面會影響到後面的作用法的一些像委員剛剛提的這些都要放在相關的作用法裡面在細節裡面去訂定應該要規定說有這樣的註記讓民眾可以辨識然後我們在AI基本法通過前的這個過渡也希望說我們格格會跟我們數位部這邊"},{"start":588.764,"end":616.662,"text":"發布這邊來合作是不是我們可以研議就是有沒有可以辨識AI生成影像的軟體或是或是如果說有造成民眾疑慮的AI影像圖片在社群平台流傳的時候呢你們就應該及時的來協助辨識來釐清讓民眾知道說這是假影片假消息不會讓民眾有恐慌這個部分你們可以做嗎我們應該積極跟其他部會本身一起合作來解決這個問題因為這個是跨部會的很多的問題"},{"start":617.202,"end":644.381,"text":"其實AI快速的發展我們也非常的擔憂就是說它技術進展的那麼快我們的法規更不跟得上來不來得及來規範它但是呢就是因為怕它的技術進展太快我們來不及規範它我們更不能實也更不能停留我覺得說我們盡速的建立這個框架才是我們對AI發展的一個負責任的態度這個部分希望你們也盡快這個相關的這些規劃都要做"},{"start":644.701,"end":644.842,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bb4084e1015a3aba0039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a646decef9d92b3ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:25:02 - 10:38:28","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":806,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:38:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:25:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":495,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時25分）麻煩請副主委。"],["主席：好，有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：副主委，我還是想問一下，為什麼主委沒來？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：他今天請假去行政院院會，實在非常抱歉，他有特別……"],["葉委員元之：我發現好像我們這一屆的委員不被民進黨政府重視，我看到國防部長或是衛福部長都自己出席，但我們這個委員會，每次都沒看到教育部長，沒來幾次，都是次長，國科會又派副主委，是不是我們教委會的委員比較被民進黨看不起？我不知道。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該不是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：不是這樣，為什麼主委不來？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：主委去行政院院會開會。"],["葉委員元之：我們很閒就對了，他就很忙，我們都很閒。不是，副主委，當然不為難你，但是還是要表示一下我們的態度。我看到報告，這個報告非常重要，整個囊括了國家科技發展的各大戰略，甚至於連地緣政治底下我們科技發展的因應方略都有。最近地緣政治很熱門，像昨天有馬習二會，現在還有美日峰會、美日菲峰會，地緣政治這麼熱鬧的情況之下，請教一下副主委，現在國科會說要在地緣政治情況下發展的科技戰略是什麼？你們的報告裡面有提到，但是你們的報告寫得太抽象，具體來說，你們的做法到底是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：簡單說，臺灣的整個……如果就地緣政治對半導體好了，我把範圍縮小一點，臺灣必須找到一個關鍵技術本身的發展……"],["葉委員元之：什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：不會移出半導體元件……"],["葉委員元之：需要你講嗎？這不用你講我也知道啊！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我是說……"],["葉委員元之：我現在講國科會對於這個地方的價值跟貢獻是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我直接回答剛剛委員的第一個問題。我們如何選擇重要的技術？以前的話就生產面來講，生產很大的技術就很重要，但未來我們要看到新的技術進來，比如說AI，AI的技術需要跟硬體本身結合……"],["葉委員元之：副主委等一下，現在一轉眼又過了4分鐘，你不要浪費我的時間，這個報告都有寫，我現在問你具體來講，地緣政治底下你對於科技產業的因應是什麼嘛！請具體講，因為這是寫在你報告裡面的啊！昨天馬習二會跟今天的美日高峰會，國科會做了什麼相關的事情？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我還是以半導體為例子。"],["葉委員元之：半導體本來就不用你們講，我們也知道啊！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：半導體的策略也會做一定程度的改變。"],["葉委員元之：什麼啊？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：比如說生產鏈的部分……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼樣？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：某些核心技術我們要掌控在臺灣，這個部分事實上……"],["葉委員元之：什麼核心技術？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：核心技術比如說製程技術，比如說14奈米這個技術。"],["葉委員元之：不是，副主委，這個不用你講，好不好？這個我看新聞都有，我現在在問你們到底做了什麼，你答不出來，是不是？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：不是，具體把應該控制的技術……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！我這樣問啦！這兩天金融時報說我們很多大型的製造商都考慮在海外設第二總部，這個事情你知道嗎？不知道。包括光寶科、佳世達都考慮到外面設第二總部，現在國內的大型製造商，因為你管科學園區，請問這些大型製造商到海外設總部的意願怎麼樣？"],["許處長增如：臺灣的產業大概都是全球布局，過去我們的市場也高度仰賴海外，所以做這樣的策略投資跟布局……"],["葉委員元之：不是策略投資，是第二總部。主席，時間可不可以暫停一下？你可不可以請他們針對我的問題回答？我問到現在，他們都沒有針對我的問題回答。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該要從……"],["葉委員元之：主席，時間可不可以暫停一下？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我直接……"],["葉委員元之：主委不來，下面就是來混時間的。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：剛剛其實……"],["葉委員元之：我現在問你的問題很具體，金融時報報導，現在大型製造商像佳世達、光寶科都已經考慮到海外設第二總部，就是因為地緣政治的影響。我現在問你，你們掌管高科技……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：同樣有地緣政治的影響……"],["葉委員元之：你們現在做什麼因應？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：也有很多國際的研發中心到臺灣，這非常重要，我們要看雙向。"],["葉委員元之：我不管有沒有研發中心到這邊，我現在問的是你們掌握的狀況。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是雙向，也就是製造業本身出去這件事情……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，主席，時間暫停一下，好不好？你跟他講一下，雖然我們不同黨，但是這樣子國會的質詢有意義嗎？"],["主席：沒有，請副主委針對委員的問題回答。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我正在回答。"],["葉委員元之：不是，我問你有沒有掌握我們要去設第二總部的狀況，然後你跟我說它是雙向的，也有別人來，我現在跟你吵架，是不是？我現在問你，現在地緣政治的情況下，因為你們說這是你們的研究項目之一，所以我問你，你們針對地緣政治的影響做了什麼因應作為？你現在都跟我打高空，我問你地緣政治底下的產業布局，你跟我說半導體，這需要你講嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個投審會它會……如果說有……"],["葉委員元之：好，好，好，沒關係，沒關係，沒關係，副主委，我真的不想浪費時間了。我們就給大家看你們國科會的態度：回答問題就是這樣啦，反正我就來，你隨便問我隨便答，時間混完我就回去。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：沒有，我們一定全力回答，盡力回答。"],["葉委員元之：就是這種態度啦，沒關係！大家都看在眼裡。我接著請教你，3月18號行政院副院長鄭文燦在嘉義縣政府宣布，台積電要在嘉義科學園區建兩座先進封裝廠，這事你知道嗎？科學園區歸你們管的吧。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我知道。"],["葉委員元之：所以台積電要來嗎？會來喔？但是我去看了去年12月有關嘉義園區的環評報告，報告裡面只有提到針對精準健康、智慧載具、智慧農業跟其他新興科技四大產業做環評，其中有包括台積電嗎？有包括晶圓業嗎？"],["蘇局長振綱：跟委員報告，在智慧載具裡面對於半導體是允許的，但是對於半導體裡面做製造的部分是有限制的，製造的部分是晶圓製造。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以有沒有針對晶圓做環評？"],["蘇局長振綱：晶圓的部分本來在嘉科就不行，但是先進封裝的部分是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：所以它是要設先進封裝廠，是不是？"],["蘇局長振綱：是的。"],["葉委員元之：那是包括在哪一個項目裡面？其他新興科技？"],["蘇局長振綱：目前是在智慧載具及其他新興科技裡面，包含相關的封裝產業可以在這裡面容納。"],["葉委員元之：所以只有封裝產業？所以確定它要過來？"],["蘇局長振綱：是，它已經在3月提出申請了。"],["葉委員元之：那大概什麼時候會進來？"],["蘇局長振綱：這個可能要看廠商，目前在做相關的準備工作，要看它宣布。"],["葉委員元之：所以封裝的部分就比較不受到一些地形的影響，是不是？比如排水系統。"],["蘇局長振綱：所有的產業都會受到排水、供水、供電……"],["葉委員元之：對，問題是有沒有特別針對這個部分去做環評？"],["蘇局長振綱：這個部分都有環評的規範，如果涉及到需要調整的話，都會送環差分析。"],["葉委員元之：所以，你的意思就是會進來沒錯。"],["蘇局長振綱：是，沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：然後時間的話要看它提出來的……"],["蘇局長振綱：是，要看廠商宣布的時間。"],["葉委員元之：現在是說宣布了，就看它提出，還是你們有很積極地招商？"],["蘇局長振綱：我們已經核准它進駐了。"],["葉委員元之：因為台積電要不要進駐一直是大家的政績啦，老是搶先宣布啦，我不曉得國科會在這地方的積極度怎麼樣？"],["蘇局長振綱：這個沒有問題，我們……"],["葉委員元之：你是被動地等它來申請，還是……"],["蘇局長振綱：沒有，我們一直在配合提供相關廠商的服務，只要廠商有需求。"],["葉委員元之：是什麼？"],["蘇局長振綱：所有的廠商包含半導體的、光電的，只要它願意……"],["葉委員元之：你們就是被動配合嘛？"],["蘇局長振綱：沒有，沒有，我們其實……"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛這樣講的啊！"],["蘇局長振綱：國內外招商的動作都有在做。"],["葉委員元之：好啦！沒關係，再問一個，國科會下面有一個災害防救科技中心，負責災防告警細胞廣播訊息，對吧？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：我這邊有兩個案例，我想問一下為什麼都沒有通告，一個是之前在網路上有一個照片，說是臺版的快車手，就這張照片，就是發生了坍方，他這樣衝出來，請問一下，像這種正常情況之下，國科會認為這應該要發細胞簡訊嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想這個由災防中心這邊來回答。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有？需要嗎？"],["陳主任宏宇：委員好，我想崩塌的時候會有主責單位發國家警報。"],["葉委員元之：應該要發，對不對？"],["陳主任宏宇：應該要發。"],["葉委員元之：可是，主任，沒有啊！沒發啊！"],["陳主任宏宇：我想在現地，就是花蓮地區……"],["葉委員元之：沒有就沒有嘛，因為我們去看了你的網站系統，就沒有針對這個發啊！發的簡訊是零啊！"],["陳主任宏宇：我想是由主責單位透過細胞的平台發出來的。"],["葉委員元之：它自己的細胞平台？"],["陳主任宏宇：不，不，不，就是國家的細胞平台。"],["葉委員元之：我們看的系統就沒有嘛！你認為要發，可是他們沒有發，因為系統上就沒有呈現出來。"],["陳主任宏宇：是，這個崩塌的時候太……"],["葉委員元之：所以，是不是國科會應該要跟相關的主責單位去講。"],["陳主任宏宇：是。"],["葉委員元之：不然我們國科會建置這個系統，大家都不使用，要不就是使用得很奇怪，什麼大陸發射衛星就發，然後這種崩塌，要不是這個臺版馮迪索開特別快，不然可能有危險，這個不發？"],["陳主任宏宇：這個發了……"],["葉委員元之：你要跟他們講啦，好不好？我覺得國科會不是說把系統建置起來之後就隨便你們用了，你是主責單位，你要去教育訓練，或者怎麼使用，這是你們的責任嘛！"],["陳主任宏宇：是，中央應變中心都會每一次檢討。"],["葉委員元之：細胞簡訊這個事情大家詬病很多啦，真的不是說只有在地震那一天大家詬病，而是後續很多狀況，一樣沒有改進啊！像我剛剛秀的那個照片也不是最近的事，也不是上禮拜三，是之後的事情啊！並沒有針對這個東西做一個檢討嘛！所以國科會是不是可以召集一個會議跟各單位說，這個系統建置了，請大家一定要妥善運用，該發的時候發，不該發的時候不要發，國科會是不是可以做這個事？"],["陳主任宏宇：可以，可以，可以。"],["葉委員元之：另外還有一個很離譜的，4月9號苗栗大埔附近也收到一個簡訊，就是我現在投影片上秀出來的，請問一下主任，這可以翻譯一下什麼意思嗎？我怕國人不是每一個人都都會英文。"],["陳主任宏宇：這個是由主責單位發布的時候，除了用中文發布以外，英文也會放……"],["葉委員元之：對，但是它只有英文啊！"],["陳主任宏宇：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以這是發給外國人看的還是怎樣？"],["陳主任宏宇：我想它是講水庫洩洪的部分。"],["葉委員元之：對啦，你翻譯大家都懂啦，可是你覺得大家都看得懂英文嗎？是不是我們的簡訊以中文為主，可不可以？"],["陳主任宏宇：是，是，是。"],["葉委員元之：以中文為主，可不可以？"],["陳主任宏宇：可以，可以。"],["葉委員元之：所以你看隨便舉兩個就知道這個簡訊問題這麼多，所以可不可以請國科會召集一個會議，針對訊息發放訂定一些原則，好不好？"],["陳主任宏宇：是，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：不要這樣亂七八糟！真的亂七八糟啦，好不好？"],["陳主任宏宇：好，謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：謝謝委員，這個我們一定會……"],["葉委員元之：召委可不可以……真的，因為我為了後面的委員著想，他們這樣答詢真的浪費大家時間啦，你可以跟他講一下嗎？我的時間莫名其妙就到了，前面就是跟我扯一些我在新聞上都看得到的東西，然後我時間就到了。"],["主席：當然我相信國科會的林副主委也好，其他官員也好，他們應該都會針對委員的問題來回答，當然是見仁見智，可是我還是要求真的要針對委員的問題妥適回答。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們會持續改善。"],["葉委員元之：還是再給我10分鐘，然後再問一次？你的目的就達到了啊！我問的問題這麼具體，因為這是你們報告裡面寫的內容，我針對你們報告的內容來問你，然後你就跟我扯說半導體很重要，需要你講嗎？你去幼稚園問大家都講得出來。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我只是說半導體策略我們會……"],["葉委員元之：這樣浪費時間，我覺得很可惜啦！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對不起！我剛剛的回答是……"],["葉委員元之：我們一大早來這邊，如果沒有質詢還會被召委罵，還會上新聞罵我沒來質詢，結果我們準備質詢來這邊問，然後你們在敷衍我！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員可以……，我絕對不是用半導體來回答。"],["葉委員元之：然後上一次我們要求你們國科會做的事情，報告也沒有交，報告都不交，都是在這邊敷衍我們！所以國會改革很重要，從這邊就知道了嘛！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：有不交嗎？如果不交，我們回去立刻查，不曉得是不是……"],["主席：這個要查清楚，事後補給委員，資料是一定要給。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員在這方面有任何……"],["葉委員元之：事後不給就算了啦，今天答詢也隨便亂答！國科會是怎樣？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：不會隨便亂答，我們是很認真答。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。"],["葉委員元之：這還沒有隨便亂答喔？那你的標準真的很低欸！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我再強調一次，我們並不是針對半導體來做回答，我們是說半導體很重要，它改變了什麼，改變什麼是很重要，那我就要說明它改變了什麼，對不對？在這個部分……"],["葉委員元之：你講嘛，我問你國科會做了什麼？我是問你國科會做了什麼，你一直跟我扯說半導體很重要，然後我問你國科會有沒有掌握半導體製造業有沒有要到海外去設第二總部，你跟我講說我們也招了很多資金進來，這有回答問題嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：兩個是相關的。"],["主席：好，謝謝！謝謝！"],["葉委員元之：召委，他跟我講這樣，你可不可以跟他溝通一下，他還說這兩個相關，那你要不要從盤古開天講起？"],["主席：好啦！林副主委請回座，林副主委請回座，時間到了。"],["葉委員元之：我有辦法站在這裡也跟盤古開天也有關啦！怎麼能藐視國會成這樣？"],["主席：好，接下來請陳秀寳委員質詢，在張雅琳委員質詢完之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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這個報告非常的重要他整個囊括了我們國家科技發展的各大戰略甚至於連地緣政治底下我們科技發展的因應方略都有"},{"start":78.777,"end":102.919,"text":"那最近地緣政治很熱門啦很熱門像昨天有馬錫二會然後現在還有美日峰會美日非峰會然後地緣政治這麼熱鬧的情況之下請教一下我們副主委我們現在國科會說你們要在地緣政治情況發展我們的科技戰略是什麼最後你們報告裡面有提到的但是因為你們報告寫得太抽象了具體來說你們到底做法是什麼"},{"start":104.526,"end":124.495,"text":"簡單說就是說臺灣的整個我想如果說就地緣政治對半導體好了我把範圍縮小一點臺灣必須找到一個臺灣在關鍵技術本身的發展什麼不會移出去半導體原件需要你講嗎這不用你講我也知道啊我先講的是你國科會你們對於這個地方的價值跟貢獻是什麼"},{"start":126.946,"end":143.311,"text":"我直接回答剛剛那個委員的第一個問題好了那我們如何去選擇重要的技術以前的話就就生產面來講越生產很大的技術就很重要但現在未來我們要看到一個新的技術進來比如說AIAI的技術它需要跟硬體本身的結合你不要浪費我時間你現在一轉眼又過了4分鐘了"},{"start":147.673,"end":162.27,"text":"你不要浪費我的時間我現在講的是這個報告都寫我現在問你具體來講地緣政治底下你對於科技產業因應是什麼嗎具體來講因為這是寫在你報告裡面的啊那昨天馬錫鶴會跟今天的每日高峰會國科會做了什麼相關的事情"},{"start":163.932,"end":191.787,"text":"我還是以半導體為例是吧半導體本來就是不用你們講我們也知道啊半導體的策略也會做一定程度的改變什麼啊比如說生產鏈的部分在某些核心技術的部分我們要掌控在台灣這個部分事實上那具體什麼核心技術核心技術比如說製程技術比如說14層14耐米的這個這個也不用你講好不好這個我看新聞都有我現在就問說你們到底做了什麼嘛你答不出來是不是不是就具體把這個那我這樣問啦昨天"},{"start":192.547,"end":213.079,"text":"這兩天金融時報說我們很多大型的製造商都考慮在海外設第二總部這是你知道嗎?不知道喔?包括有光寶科加世達都考慮到外面設第二總部現在國內大型製造商因為你管科學園區嘛這位大型製造商說要到海外設總部的意願怎麼樣?這個目前"},{"start":216.792,"end":241.998,"text":"報告委員 其實我們那個臺灣的產業大概都是全球布局啦那所以說其實過去我們的市場也高度仰賴海外那所以說做這樣的一個策略投資跟一些布局不是策略投資 第二總部欸 欸 主席可不可以先暫停一下就是你可不可以請他們針對我的問題回答我問到現在都沒有一個針對我的問題回答我想應該要從主席可不可以先暫停一下主委不來 然後下面就是來混時間的"},{"start":244.188,"end":263.515,"text":"我現在問你問題很具體現在金融時報報導現在的大型製造商像加斯達、光寶科都已經考慮到海外去設第二總部就是因為地緣政治的影響嘛我現在問你說你們掌管高科技同樣有地緣政治的影響也很多國際的研發中心有研發中心事實上也到台灣"},{"start":264.475,"end":281.122,"text":"這非常重要我們要看雙向我現在問的是你們掌握的狀況雙向也就是製造業本身的出去不好意思主席先暫停一下你跟他講一下雖然我們不同黨但是這樣子國會的質詢有意義嗎沒有就請副主委針對委員的問題回答"},{"start":284.904,"end":285.505,"text":"副主委我真的不想浪費時間"},{"start":311.324,"end":334.09,"text":"我們就給大家看你們國科會的態度啦回答問題就這樣啦反正我就來啦你隨便問我我隨便答時間混完我就回去就是這種態度啦沒關係大家都看在眼裡啦我現在請教你啦3月18號的時候行政院前應該現在還是啦部院長鄭文燦在嘉義縣政府宣布台積電要在嘉義科學園區建兩座先進封裝廠"},{"start":335.703,"end":344.32,"text":"這是你知道嗎?科學委員區貴你們管的吧?所以台積電要來嗎?會來喔?但是我去看了去年12月"},{"start":345.82,"end":368.891,"text":"有關於嘉義園區的環評環評裡面他只有提到說有針對精準健康、智慧載具、智慧農業跟其他新興科技四大產業做環評那其中有包括台積電嗎?有包括晶圓業嗎?跟委員報告在智慧載具裡面對於半導體是允許的但是對於半導體裡面做製造的部分是有限制的製造的部分是晶圓製造"},{"start":369.771,"end":381.922,"text":"對,所以有沒有針對晶圓做環評?晶圓的部分本來在加科就不行,但是先進封裝的部分是可以的。所以它是要設先進封裝廠是不是?"},{"start":381.922,"end":395.214,"text":"是的。那是包括在哪一個裡面?目前是在智慧載具以及其他新興科技裡面,包含相關的封裝產業可以在這裡面容納。所以只有封裝產業,所以確定它要過來?是,它已經在3月起租了。"},{"start":396.115,"end":410.331,"text":"專業提出提出申請那大概什麼時候會進來這個可能要看廠商目前在做相關的準備工作要看他宣布所以封裝的部分就比較不受到一些地形的影響比如說排水系統"},{"start":411.607,"end":433.804,"text":"所有的產業都會說到排水、水電、中水、工業。對,那問題是有沒有特別針對這個部分去做環評,有沒有?這個部分都有環評的規範,那如果有涉及到需要調整的話都會送環差的分析。所以你的意思就是說會進來沒錯?是,沒有錯。會進來沒錯,然後時間的話要看他提出來的時間。是,要看廠商宣布的時間。那現在是說宣布了然後就看他提出,還是你們有很積極的招商?"},{"start":434.184,"end":453.94,"text":"我們已經核准他進駐了核准他進駐對 已經核准他進駐了那就你的了解因為臺積電要不要進駐一直是大家的一個政績是老師搶先宣布那我不曉得說國科會在這地方記憶度怎麼樣這個沒有問題你是被動的等他來申請還是沒有 我們一直在配合相關我們一直在提供相關廠商的服務只要廠商有需求那是什麼啊 你們"},{"start":455.001,"end":481.742,"text":"所有的廠商包含半導體的光電的只要他願意你們就是被動的配合嗎沒有沒有我們其實持續在你剛剛這樣講的啊好啦沒關係啦好再問一個啦國科會下面有一個災害防救科技中心的有負責災防告緊細胞廣播系統對吧是那我這邊有兩個案例我想問一下為什麼這都沒有通告一個是之前在網路上有一個照片說是那個台版"},{"start":483.101,"end":491.03,"text":"臺版的快車手就這張照片有沒有他就是發聲的貪方所以他這樣衝出來那請問一下像這種正常情況之下國會認為說這應該要發細胞簡訊嗎"},{"start":493.649,"end":514.53,"text":"我想這個由戰犯中心這邊來回答有沒有 需要嗎委員好 這個我想他這個崩塌的時候會有主責單位阿他發這個國家警報的這個應該要發對不對 應該要發可是主任 沒有喔 沒發我想在現地 就是花蓮地區阿沒有 就沒有嘛 因為我們去看你的網站系統就沒有發就沒有針對這個發就0阿 發的簡訊是0阿"},{"start":516.852,"end":544.166,"text":"我想是由主責單位阿他透過這個細胞的這個平台然後發出來他自己的細胞平台喔不不不就是國家的細胞平台就這沒就我們看的系統就沒有嘛是是是就沒有嘛你認為要發可是他沒有發因為系統上就沒有呈現出來是這個這個他分他的時候太所以是不是國會會你應該要跟相關的主責單位去講嘛是是是就不然我們國會會建置這個系統阿大家都不使用喔使用的很奇怪什麼大陸發射衛星然後就就發"},{"start":545.41,"end":551.807,"text":"然後這種通他要不是這個台版房地鎖啊開特別快不然的話可能有危險啊啊這個不發"},{"start":553.925,"end":581.402,"text":"哇 這個發的那個開盤不是 你要跟他們講啦好不好我覺得國會不是說把系統建制起來之後就隨便你們用了你是主責單位你要去教育訓練或是說怎麼使用這個是你們的責任嘛所以這個細胞檢訊這個事情大家詬病很多啦齁但是真的不是說只有在地震那一天大家詬病而是後續的很多狀況一樣沒有改進啊對 像我現在秀出來剛秀那個照片也不是最近的事也不是上禮拜三是之後的事情啊"},{"start":582.382,"end":602.686,"text":"並沒有針對這個東西做一個檢討嘛所以國會會是不是可以召集一個會議．跟各單位講說這個系統建制的請大家一定要妥善運用該發的時候發 不該發不要發國會會是不是可以做這個事可以可以可以然後另外還有一個很離譜的4月9號苗栗大埔附近也收到一個簡訊就是我現在投影片上面秀出來的"},{"start":606.458,"end":625.986,"text":"主任請教一下可以幫大家翻譯一下什麼意思我怕國人不是每一個人都會英文我想我們在發布這個是由組織單位發布的時候他除了中文發布以外他英文他也會放對但是他只有英文是那所以是在發給外國人看還是怎樣我想他是這個"},{"start":631.86,"end":645.072,"text":"也就是水庫啊 洩洪的部分啊對啦 你翻譯大家都懂啦可是你覺得大家都看得懂英文嗎是不是我們以中文為主我們的簡訊以中文為主可不可以所以你看 隨便舉兩個就知道這個簡訊問題這麼多所以可不可以請國科會 招幾個會議針對這個訊息發放的一些原則好不好 訂出來不要亂七八糟 真的亂七八糟啦 好不好"},{"start":659.044,"end":674.689,"text":"謝謝我們謝謝委員這個招委可不可以真的因為我為了後面的委員著想啦他們這樣答詢真的是浪費大家時間啊你先跟他講一下好不好你看我時間莫名其妙就到了前面就跟我扯一些我在新聞上都看的到的東西我時間就到了"},{"start":677.116,"end":688.365,"text":"我相信國科會的林副主委也好 其他的官員他們應該都會針對委員的問題來回答當然是見仁見智 可是我還是要求我們真的要針對委員的問題來妥適回答還有10分鐘 然後再問一次"},{"start":703.557,"end":731.973,"text":"你的目的就答到了啊我問的問題這麼具體因為這是你們報告裡面寫的內容啊我針對你們報告內容在問你然後你就跟我扯說半導體很重要需要你講嘛你去幼稚園問大家都講得出來我只是說半導體的策略我會感受我覺得很可惜啦對不起我們一大早來這邊我如果沒有質詢還會被召委罵還會上新聞罵我沒來質詢結果我們準備質詢來這邊問然後你們在敷衍我委員可以我絕對不是用半導體來做回答然後上一次上一次我們國科會"},{"start":733.194,"end":733.494,"text":"4月10日及11日二天一次會議"},{"start":755.527,"end":769.878,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉元師委那你的標準真的很低欸我再強調一次我們並不是針對半導體來做回答我們是說半導體很重要它改變了什麼改變什麼是很重要那我就要說明它改變了什麼 對不對"},{"start":771.299,"end":792.03,"text":"你講嘛,我問你是你國幹做了什麼嘛我是問你國幹做了什麼,你一直跟我扯說半導體很重要然後我問你說你國幹有沒有掌握說這個半導體製造業有沒有要到海外去設立的總部你跟我講說我們也招了很多資金進來這有回答問題嗎?兩個是相關的,兩個是相關的你可不可以跟他溝通一下,他還說兩個相關李副主委請回座時間到了"},{"start":805.135,"end":805.319,"text":"好 我們接下"}]}},{"id":"151039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bac1f5a1b12030e08e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a62f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:30:19 - 10:37:59","影片長度":"00:07:40","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":460,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:37:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:30:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時30分）主席、各位委員。有請代理部長陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天審查野保法還有遠洋漁業條例。原住民族基本法第十九條是在94年2月5號就公布施行，原住民得依法獵捕野生動物，而且是以傳統文化、祭儀、自用為限，從94年到現在一直沒有辦法落實，我們也曾經在第9屆提出野保法的修正，但是朝野協商沒有完成，沒有辦法三讀，106年2月24號朝野協商，然後在第10屆，就是上一屆，我們再次提出野保法的修正，雖然經濟委員會審完了，但是朝野協商沒有完成。因為野保法第二十一條之一遲遲未通過，導致原住民族一直被起訴，然後打官司要打很久。我們看2017年（106年）本席特別去聲援布農族的獵人王光祿，我特別舉了這個牌子──國家違法！因為原住民族基本法已經規定得很明確了，但是野保法一直不修，很多你們的官員，包括檢察官就起訴，這是我今年3月14號的臉書：國家違法！獵人無罪！恭喜獵人王光祿狩獵案，最高法院判決無罪確定！歷經10年，不是只有他喔！他是很堅持的，所以歷經10年，我們很多鄉親、很多獵人就這樣被起訴，然後被判決。我們看今天的野保法第二十一條之一修正條文，本席所提出來的跟現行條文，其實就是要因應原住民族基本法。因為時間的關係，我就跳到第五十一條之一，第五十一條之一本席的修正條文跟行政院版最大的差距，部長要不要說明一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，我們行政院版本裡面大概有分為保育類跟一般野生類的部分，因為在整個動物保護來講，一般野生動物跟保育類動物是有不一樣的保護概念，所以我們有不同的處罰條例。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我先談剛才農業部一直在說明的，對於到底要使用怎麼樣的狩獵器具，當然有很多不同的意見，跟我們原住民的需求、跟其他立委或是配合相關動保團體意見所提出來的，我們都尊重，但是也要尊重原住民族在臺灣這塊土地上千百年，造成野生動物各方面的減少絕對不是原住民，其實很多根本就是科技造成的，還有天災什麼的，都有關係啦！但是不能因為這些野生動物少了，然後就要影響我們的狩獵文化，所以這個部分也要請農業部該堅持的要堅持。以這一條條文來講，就是希望能夠維持現行條文，然後做適度的修正。部長，還有署長，其實去打獵的時候，你能看得清楚這是保育類還是不是保育類嗎？晚上怎麼看得出來呢？對不對？你說保育類就要怎麼樣加重處罰，狩獵的時候，尤其是晚上，我還可以眼睛這麼厲害嗎？所以還是維持現行條文，或最起碼就按照本席的條文，這個是事實嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，如果這些獵人在狩獵之前有申請的話就不會發生這種事情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，當然現在我們還不知道通過的條文是什麼。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為原來都說要核准嘛，判決也說還要核准，現在你也說修了嘛，對不對？但是現在是核准、備查兩個啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，後續的部分其實我們還有一系列的配套，包括一般狩獵、包括自主管理狩獵、包括原住民自主管理狩獵。如果到達原住民自主管理狩獵的時候，只要公部門跟原住民部落簽行政契約，他們就可以採用備查的方式。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以這個部分後面會有比較大的彈性去處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們的報告裡面有提到這已經施行12年了，但是就原住民族而言，這次修正之後才開始啦！你知道嗎？你講12年是從以前到現在，但是就我們而言，這是一直違法的法律啊！沒有配合原住民族基本法去修正。就你們而言是已經實施12年了，所以已經宣導過了，但是就我們而言，這次三讀通過之後才開始啊！所以認知上有很大的差別，好不好？希望不要堅持，希望能夠照我的條文啦！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。接下來我們請張嘉郡委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案。"},{"start":384.09,"end":412.242,"text":"但是你現在是核准備查兩個我跟委員說明後面的部分其實我們還有一系列的配套包括一般手列包括自主管理手列包括原住民自主管理手列那如果到原住民自主管理手列的時候只要我們公部門跟原住民部落簽行政契約的時候他們就可以採用備查的方式所以這個部分後面會有比較大的一個彈性去處理然後"},{"start":414.213,"end":442.619,"text":"及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":443.476,"end":455.061,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,但據我們而言,這次三讀通過之後才開始,雖然事實上有很大的差別,希望不要堅持,希望能夠照我的條文,以上謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b95bbed24269f4b613e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6e25638440f1b511c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:22:22 - 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因為上面沒有密了 所以我才秀出來啊 給大家看那就很奇怪的事情啊 一模一樣的報告 一模一樣的內容一個有密 一個沒有密 請問標準在哪裡當一個國會議員 在監督這種濫用國家的資源"},{"start":292.741,"end":314.201,"text":"圖利自己人的爛事的時候要進行監督阿他拿到報告他不能講因為上面打了一個密還好我這次拿到的公文他上面沒有打密所以我看完了整份報告了以後我事實上覺得根本就應該要找經濟部針對這臭不可聞的弊案到國會來進行專案報告"},{"start":318.203,"end":333.016,"text":"這件事情台灣社會沒有什麼人知道這就是我們現在在立法院進行監督的日常那第二個狀況2022年我們去年的時候在炒的是巴西的雞蛋"},{"start":334.438,"end":356.115,"text":"當我開始在追蹤這件事情的時候我發現我們2022年就開始在進口雞蛋我就累了以後我在2月20號發函請農業部提供2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額採購的數量廠商的名稱歷次進來的時間跟數量我從2月20號開始問問到今天問到今天"},{"start":365.339,"end":385.342,"text":"我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我們的農業部告訴我們的是說這個涉及到廠商的機密這個就讓我百思不得其解了用我們納稅的錢在前年的時候去買了雞蛋"},{"start":387.493,"end":412.493,"text":"國會不能知道社會大眾也不能知道你雞蛋是跟誰買的買了多少錢都不能知道這是什麼天大的商業秘密啊接到這個廠商的名稱請問到底是危害了什麼國家安全請問到底是侵害了什麼營業秘密用秘密當作藉口"},{"start":413.717,"end":440.27,"text":"把一切成為黑箱運作陽光照不進去立法委員不能問不能看的藉口這個是台灣的民主嗎這個是我們現在的政府在面對國會監督的時候應該有的態度嗎最後這兩天啊開始在討論監察院跟立法院的權責"},{"start":441.761,"end":446.968,"text":"說在監察院沒有廢紙以前我們不可以去侵害監察院的權責"},{"start":448.539,"end":476.192,"text":"聽到這樣的論調又讓我想起來這件事情其實在2012年我們一樣本院針對立法院怎麼樣去行使我們的調查權跟聽證權的時候非常多的學者講得很清楚了特別是林濁水前委員我們民進黨的理論大師國會改革的權威者他說講出來的話陣容乏愧"},{"start":477.386,"end":488.212,"text":"他說有人認為立法院的調查權跟監察院行使的調查權有爭議我認為這完全是威權體制下專制政黨誤導社會的一個論點"},{"start":492.557,"end":513.411,"text":"除了林卓水以外李俊逸也說了調查權本來就是立法院的職權我們現在沒有辦法透過修憲改變的時候我們至少應該要把國會的調查權以及實施調查權會用到的聽證制度給建立起來這個是在修憲以前"},{"start":514.676,"end":535.818,"text":"不用修憲費監察院李俊逸委員提出這麼精闢的見解主席站起來了我必須要結束了最後借20秒最後讓我最敬佩的就是游美女委員她2012年的時候說得最好她說當某個政黨執政後她就不願意充實立法委員的職權"},{"start":538.766,"end":549.157,"text":"這是12年前說的話在2024年的今天再次敗毒啊令人陣容發愧啊非常非常的佩服謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b567abccc4eff0164e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a61d84deb0c5e6415a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:23:51 - 10:30:17","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":386,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:30:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:23:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時23分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：我想今天我們在討論的這個議題應該已經討論很久，從上個會期一直都在關注，獸鋏的部分應該是比較沒有爭議啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是說大家認為全面禁用的部分，當然在所謂的山豬吊的部分，現在可能跟民間的力量、跟民間的聲音有點不大一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我覺得我們要說清楚，大家過去都認為山豬吊也是用舊有的那一種狀況，就是口徑會比較大，所以大小通吃會影響到整個生物鏈的狀態。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以在這個部分，到底我們在這個區塊，現在要怎麼做？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，因為野保法第十九條就有規範，今天除了這些獸鋏以外，我們針對其他捕獵的這些獵具的部分，可以得由我們來公告。針對委員所關心的山豬吊的部分，因為山豬吊目前在靠近山邊農民的地區、農業生產地帶，還有原住民部落在狩獵的時候，可能還是一個必要的工具，如果現在把它禁掉，反而會造成一些非法的、地下化的交易，所以我們現在積極在推動改良式獵捕的獵具，這樣的獵具我們在過往推動的，包括宣導已經宣導得滿普遍了，我們希望在一段時間之內，如果把這個改良式的獵具推到某個程度的時候，那我們就可以根據第十九條去做一個公告，禁止現有的、原來的山豬吊的製造。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你既然有在做，你要把這個區分得很清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：也就是說，基本上，站在我們的立場，山豬吊我們也是反對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在是一個改良式的獵具，這個改良式的獵具，基本上，它的口徑變小，它不會像山豬吊這樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我覺得這個部分你們要講清楚，到底改良式的獵具會不會繼續造成誤捕其他的野生動物？林業署要如何去落實執行整個管控的機制？我覺得大家應該要把這個話講清楚，否則你們每次都講得不清不楚，修法之後，過去大家所認為的就是，我們的山豬吊還有獸鋏這兩個一定要把它斷掉，可是現在我們只有把獸鋏正式修法，在山豬吊的部分，現在所有民間他們都覺得我們是做半套，但事實上並不是如此，那是你們話沒有講清楚啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我跟委員說明，其實除了獵具以外，我們農業部的立場，對山豬吊也是反對的，但是以剛才講的，因為山豬吊現在有它繼續用的一個必要……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以要改變名字嘛！我們不要用山豬吊啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，就不要用這個了，我們用改良式的獵具……"],["陳委員亭妃：它不再是山豬吊嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們現在的改良式獵具……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以未來只要是我們正式在3至6個月……我覺得你這個時間要有魄力啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：到底是3個月、6個月？給你們宣導，如果宣導了，我們希望大家用改良式的獵具，不是山豬吊，之後我們全面禁止山豬吊，兩個是不一樣嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：務實的部分，我們可以承諾在1年之內，因為我們看到我們把這些改良式的獵具跟原住民，特別是原住民地區的狩獵要有更好的溝通，所以我們承諾在1年之內進行改良式的獵具推廣，然後我們就把現有的、原來的山豬吊禁止，變成一個改良式的獵具。"],["陳委員亭妃：用第十九條的部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：用第十九條，你們直接公告禁止？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你這個要講清楚，人民才聽得懂啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：否則就會覺得你就是做半套，其實現在不是做半套，只是因為在所謂的調和當中，現在有很多我們的原住民或是我們的農民朋友還是需要改良式的這些相關的協助，然後協助之後，他並不是直接會影響到所謂獵捕一些大型的野生保育類動物，所以我覺得要講清楚，否則每一次好像我們修了法都是走一半的，所以有沒有決心？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們絕對有決心，就像剛才委員講的，針對其他這種對動物比較有致害，像山豬吊之類的，根據第十九條，我們可以公告，但是現在因為有一個過渡緩衝期，我們用1年為限，我們推動以1年為限。"],["陳委員亭妃：意思是說，1年之後你們就會公告山豬吊不能用了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我們用1年為限去推廣，然後我們就禁止。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以就是1年？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，1年。"],["陳委員亭妃：1年之後你們就會公告？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們就把它公告禁止。"],["陳委員亭妃：公告禁止。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這1年讓你們去做一些……"],["陳代理部長駿季：推廣改良式的獵具。"],["陳委員亭妃：宣傳、宣導改良式獵具？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個要很確定喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：確定。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個是在這裡講的喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：在立法院我們會承諾。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們在逐條審的時候也會把它納入喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有，現在行政院版本有針對持有、販售、製造、陳列、輸出入進行納管，重點是你們要怎麼從源頭管理？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在這個部分在動保法裡面就有明列了，相對的，這些獵具本身，它是一致性的，不一定要在野保法也同樣規範，我們在動保法規範的話……"],["陳委員亭妃：重點是你要怎麼從源頭管理啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個製造的部分，我先講陳列的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，待會會進行逐條審查，這個源頭管理怎麼處理比較重要，我覺得要思考比較好，不要讓修法大打折扣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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«遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":62.932,"end":76.958,"text":"我想跟委員說明因為在18碗裡面第19條就有規範就是我們今天除了這些售假以外我們針對其他的這些補列的這些列據的部分我們可以會可以得我們來公告"},{"start":77.523,"end":81.444,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":103.953,"end":121.403,"text":"三十六條之一及第四十九條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":123.561,"end":126.002,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具三）本院委員"},{"start":142.529,"end":164.61,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":165.831,"end":190.58,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中的三珠釣及瘦夾都必須斷掉,但現在我們只有把瘦夾正式修法,可是再三珠釣,現在所有的民間人都覺得我們做半套了,但事實上並不是如此。"},{"start":191.52,"end":218.131,"text":"但是你們話沒有講清楚啊。好,我跟委員說明齁,其實除了業績以外,我們農業部的立場對山豬調也是反對的。但是以剛才講的,因為山豬調現在有它繼續用的一個...需要改變名字嘛,我們不要用山豬調啦。對,就不要用這個,我們用改良式的業績。它不再是山豬調了。對,我們現在的改良式業績...所以我們未來只要是我們正式在三至六個月,我覺得你這個時間要有破例啦。是。到底是三個月、六個月,給你們宣導,"},{"start":220.552,"end":227.777,"text":"然後如果宣導了我們希望大家用改聯式的列句不是刪除掉之後我們全面禁止刪除掉"},{"start":229.534,"end":250.2,"text":"我想比較務實的部分我們可以承諾就是說在一年之內因為我們把這些改良式的列據跟原住民特別是原住民地區的狩獵要更好的一個溝通所以我們承諾說一年之內我們改良式的列據推廣我們就把刪除掉現有的原來的刪除掉就把它禁止"},{"start":250.64,"end":252.902,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條"},{"start":276.837,"end":291.554,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,並非直接影響到所謂獵捕了這個大型的野生保護的一些動物。所以我就要講清楚,否則每一次好像我們修了法都走那個一半的。"},{"start":292.858,"end":295.599,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":319.079,"end":336.773,"text":"所以就是一年一年之後你們就會公告禁止所以這一年讓你們去做一些推廣改良式的列據把改良式列據把它宣傳宣導這樣子這個要很確定這是在這裡講的我們在左條審的時候也會把它納入所以我覺得這個部分還有"},{"start":342.637,"end":350.963,"text":"現在行政院版本有針對持有販售製造陳列輸出入進行納管那重點是你們要怎麼去從源頭管理啊"},{"start":351.834,"end":352.595,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":385.511,"end":386.596,"text":"條文修正草案案。」案。"}]}},{"id":"151036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200be8e36b0e4d4d561e039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:14:33 - 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有請副主委"},{"start":10.902,"end":39.021,"text":"委員早安早安副主委不曉得您知不知道現在在去年年底有一個新聞就有特別提到多所的鼎大的碩博班他們註冊率幾乎是零那也就是說不曉得是少子化的關係還是因為什麼樣的關係其實我們的碩博班目前為止很多人其實是註冊率是掛零的"},{"start":39.821,"end":41.102,"text":"昨年之前我們原本從這個名額是300位"},{"start":61.015,"end":61.435,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":78.044,"end":105.314,"text":"好那問題是這個從108年事辦到今年其實有很多的博士他們還沒有從學校畢業那為什麼就在今年突然突增了就是這麼多的名額這個是我比較好奇也是比較有疑慮的一些地方就是說我們這1000名突然之間在今年有"},{"start":106.114,"end":125.425,"text":"加了這麼多的名額這個是什麼樣的一個構想我想原來300名分配到各個學校還是生多米少就是說其實還是非常非常的有限所以我們增加以在budget可以的範圍之內增加到1000名那另外一個當然就是一個大環境"},{"start":125.805,"end":126.366,"text":"所以我們要跟其他的產業界搶人"},{"start":143.294,"end":162.993,"text":"至少要努力讓一些願意做研究的時候他不要做得太辛苦是我們不敢講說他的薪水可以比較但是至少讓他在這邊生活無虞可是目前我們其實因為這些博士班其實他們都還沒有從博士班畢業喔那怎麼增加突然之間其實增加人數的報酬其實已經增加了三倍"},{"start":163.773,"end":192.312,"text":"目前我們看到其實碩士班和博士班的申請總人數事實上已經在下降雖然還沒有畢業但新進的我們就可以預看到這個部分的事實上是變化相當大尤其是在像STEM的這個範圍內本身它已經有一個很明顯的趨勢當然也包含少子化的問題也是其中原因我想眾多原因加在一起我們必須更要用比較強有力的機制去支持這些做博士研究的"},{"start":192.452,"end":203.238,"text":"我們有提供比業界更好的條件嗎目前來講如果經費是無限的我們當然是希望無限增加經費怎麼可能會無限對 不可能無限所以我們現在只是從原來事實上提到到4萬塊那4萬塊至少維持一個生活基本的生活這個部分讓老師或者是學生以前的話大部分的博士班學生是靠老師來支持嘛尤其是在一個實驗室裡面那我們的總預算本身也有限"},{"start":219.246,"end":243.617,"text":"所以我們就直接針對博士班你們預期這1000名今年會招得滿嗎?我們目前已經招滿而且事實上有相當多人來申請好 那我們就來看一下我們的這些資源的比例400名的部分已經滿那因為那個學校的部分還在學校但目前來申請還很踴躍是而且跟委員報告我們還去開拓就是希望能國外的來就是其實有一部分事實上有相當多國外的也來申請"},{"start":244.777,"end":270.826,"text":"我們來看一下我們的這個配置這個比例上我們可以看到比方說是112年的時候其實國立台灣大學我們這邊是58名那另外在113年就是今年其實我們國立的台灣大學是113位那其他的學校的部分我們發現這個比例上是不是會有一些"},{"start":272.266,"end":273.327,"text":"資源分配不均的一些問題"},{"start":294.404,"end":323.298,"text":"既然講到我們國科會的一些計畫我們就再來往下看當然我們看到其實我們為了要招募這些人才其實我們是為了儲備核心戰略產業人才對吧是沒錯好那既然是六大核心產業的人才我們就來看這六大核心戰略大部分都是跟資訊有關資安有關國防戰略還有我們的一些綠能跟再生資源等等對不對"},{"start":327.381,"end":345.656,"text":"這個主要是針對產業這是我們的分配是有八大的技術平台因為國科會要資助的博士班他是要做研究研究部分他必須要有一個研究的重點所以這個重點其實是剛剛我在報告的時候或是我們專題報告裡面是八大技術平台所以你們又拉出了另外一個是八大"},{"start":345.896,"end":349.118,"text":"我比較好奇的是我們所入選的這些人他們來自科系我們來看一下我們看到有哲學系另外還有美術系另外還有中文系"},{"start":369.671,"end":397.959,"text":"那這個部分他們是在這個你們所謂的八大的這樣子的一個計畫當中是符合哪一項我想國科會的審查跟學校會有很大的不一樣我們是針對他未來要讀或者是他現在做的題目跟他的研究所以他必須要寫一個小的research的一個proposal那我們來看下一頁就是說在這個所謂的博士生他們的一個獎助學金的領域的分布我個人是覺得"},{"start":399.139,"end":424.494,"text":"在資安的部分我們只有通過率只有30%也就是說推薦數入選人數三位然後在人文的部分就包含我剛剛所念的不管是藝術美術也好或者是我們的中文系也好哲學系也好這個是我個人因為可能我外行所以其實我真的會覺得有一點疑慮那他們的入選人數跟通過率是50%"},{"start":426.115,"end":438.319,"text":"那資安這麼的重要為什麼他的人數只有3跟委員報告其實問這個問題是非常重要的其實資安部分其實我們另外有其他的計畫專案的計畫去對他師資跟學生的支持"},{"start":441.28,"end":443.301,"text":"所以你們是不是應該要把平均式的比方說我每一個人補助他4萬可是我在資安人員我是應該要提高"},{"start":464.253,"end":480.323,"text":"這個未來我們要有很強的理由去做一些分布那我想治安這個部分省3只有30%這個部分我想我們可以去理解然後還是因為我們都是專家省就是專家的審查那人文社會我這裡要強調人文社會非常重要"},{"start":480.683,"end":481.964,"text":"我們全盤去理解看其他計畫的配合"},{"start":505.1,"end":534.069,"text":"因為我們再往下一張看我們看到我們的這是你們的這個政策的一個研究光是在政策的議題上面其實就沒有出現人文社會的議題喔所以我就不知道您剛才說的這個專業的在第一屆本身裡面的主要研究員都是社會人文的我想目前這第一屆是我們最近社會剛成立的科技民主跟社會研究中心嘛它的組成本身那它是讓人文的觀點去看現在"},{"start":535.069,"end":535.349,"text":"這個我懂"},{"start":561.096,"end":577.407,"text":"對,所以我們現在這裡的題目也許看到是AI但是AI它本身就是一個人文問題跟社會問題好,就我剛剛所提的我覺得在我們人才的補助或者獎助學金我覺得這個部分是不是應該要依照我們的現狀可以來做一些修正跟調整我覺得你們那補的1000名才會有意義啦"},{"start":582.17,"end":582.53,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":601.46,"end":603.122,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝副主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bb1a42ea11ecc63d9e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6b165d9c3a9e3ea845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:15:20 - 10:23:48","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":508,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:23:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:15:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時15分）主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天特別針對遠洋漁業條例及野保法提出修法，針對遠洋漁業條例有一個很重要的部分，就是希望涉及非法、未報告或不受規範漁撈作業的漁獲物或漁產品不得進口，我想這是這次修法一個很重要的部分。我想請問在魚貨中一個比較特別的東西，也就是魚翅的問題。我看了英國非政府組織在臺灣東港及前鎮漁港針對13家加工貿易公司調查發現，其中只有一家有合法的魚翅加工執照，這表示只有一家有很明確的魚翅來源，至於其他12家情況是怎麼樣？可不可以請部長回答一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可不可以請署長來回答？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["張署長致盛：謝謝委員關心。目前保育類鯊魚禁止捕撈；另外，一般鯊魚雖允許捕撈，但禁止割鰭棄身。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我現在想問的是，如果英國這個NGO組織的調查報告是真實的，13家當中只有一家有合法來源，這對臺灣的國際形象來說一定是不好的。這次修正遠洋漁業條例時，我們希望後續能把可能產生的一些問題圍堵起來。以消費者來講，可能有很多人喜歡吃，但他們也不想吃到非法來源；而餐廳在獲得食材的過程當中，可能也不想進口到非法食材。所以政府如何確保進來的食材是合法的，符合這次的修法規則？部長可不可以回答一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想這就是我們今天最主要的修法目的，也就是杜絕IUU魚貨進口！杜絕IUU魚貨進口之後，就沒有剛才所講的，當消費者辨識時發現有非法進來的，特別是一些非保育類鯊魚最讓人詬病的割鰭棄身……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我瞭解，所以我們接下來要怎麼做？2023年漁業署統計我們的遠洋漁船總共有多少？1,033艘，對不對？這數字有沒有錯？沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，一千多艘。"],["鄭委員正鈐：卸魚檢查員總共有多少人？"],["張署長致盛：目前的卸魚檢查率大概是百分之十左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有多少人？卸魚檢查員有多少人？"],["張署長致盛：79人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：79人？跟我得到的數字差距很大。不管是我這邊得到的29人，或你講的79人，我們都要再釐清一下。我這邊得到數字是29人，要去檢查那1,033艘的遠洋漁船，顯然是不夠的！如果接下來我們修法通過，想讓所有魚貨都是合法的，那麼我們認為卸魚檢查員可能要再增加，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：針對卸魚檢查員要多少才是適當的，我想我們內部會再來評估。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果需要的話就會增加。第二個要跟委員說明的就是，我們自己捕獲的東西會在自己的相關規範裡去處理，不會有非法的進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我們希望能夠真正去落實，因為在落實過程當中，不只對漁民很重要，對於整個產業鏈當中，包括餐廳、消費者，都是很重要的保障，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們今天還修正野保法，我想請教部長，不管動保法或野保法，主管機關都在農業部，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這兩個法當中我們要如何取得平衡，我覺得很重要。因為現在動保法與野保法有很多已經交互重疊在一起了，比方臺灣大學、東華大學都碰過保育類白鼻心被遊蕩犬咬死的事件，這到底該由動保法來保障，還是要由野保法來保障？部長可不可以說明一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：您所說的是當一般動物……"],["鄭委員正鈐：發生這樣的衝突時，主管機關到底是要用野保法還是動保法？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這要看動物類別而定，一般的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：以動物類別來說，白鼻心現在是保育類，遊蕩犬可能是一般的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：白鼻心現在已經不是保育類了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。如果還不到保育類的話，你要怎麼處理？"],["陳代理部長駿季：一般會用野保法最主要是針對保育類動物，所以我們通常會用野保法去處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後如果……"],["鄭委員正鈐：東非狒狒就算野保法保障的範圍，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之前六福村的動物跑出來，對不對？這是用野保法還是動保法？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該是野保法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：牠跑出來了，但牠又在動物園裡頭，那麼牠適用動保法保障，還是野保法保障？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果是做動物展演時，就是用動保法來處理，因為動保法針對動物展演有相關規範。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以跑出來之後就變成用野保法管理，是這個意思嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，牠出去時，牠本身是用野保法去做相關的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我舉這幾個例子，最主要是想說，以現在的狀態來講，很多時候野保法跟動保法其實是混在一起，民眾其實也是混淆的。就主管單位來說，野保法是林業署在管的，對不對？動保法是動保司在管的，重點都是農業部在管理，所以我們希望這部分能夠整合得更好，這樣民眾碰到問題時比較能夠知道怎麼做回應。所以本席在這邊主張，農業部是不是有可能設立野生動物保護專線？或者是一個動物的保護專線？動保專線或者是野生動物保護專線？"],["陳代理部長駿季：動保專線1959現在就有了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在本來就有對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，本來就有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我們對這部分是不是能夠去加強宣導？因為在2021年新竹南寮發生一個遊蕩犬追婦人，結果婦人跌倒死掉，引起國賠的事件，部長知道這個事情，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我記得我們在2021年之後就辦了一個流浪動物餵養管理的相關座談會。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：3年過去了，請問一下，後續有沒有一些改進？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個禁止餵養的部分，就是從我們整個動物保護本身，針對流浪犬貓的部分，我們最後歸納的結果是人的行為跟態度是最重要的，特別是餵養，但是也不能百分之百絕對的禁止餵養，因為禁止餵養以後……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，因為時間有限，我想問一下，在2021年這一次的會議之後，我們有哪些改善？我直接講，因為在那一次當中，我們跟地方政府承辦人員的問卷調查當中，大家都認為很重要的部分就是要增加行政資源。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：3年過去了，請問農業部這邊給地方政府增加多少行政資源？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我如果沒有記錯的話，totally是296人，農業部是補助126個人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。針對這部分，我們希望農業部這邊能夠更加強要去改善的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後針對新竹市的部分再給我一份完整的資料，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，接下來請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":69.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.92721875000001,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.30596875,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.04784375,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.00534375000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.19096875000001,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.87846875000001,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.85659375,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.75846875,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.19721875,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.27471875,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.77971875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.33596875,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.64784375000002,"end":162.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.48659375,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.69534375,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.81346875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.37846875000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.04034375,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.52534375000002,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.23409375,"end":188.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.67659375000002,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.94596875000002,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.40096875,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.99159375000002,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.72034375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.31096875,"end":206.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.44159375,"end":211.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.92596875,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.29221875000002,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.35534375,"end":221.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.24534375000002,"end":221.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.29596875000001,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.34659375,"end":221.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.49846875,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.51534375000003,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.93284375000002,"end":237.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.66471875000002,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.56284375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.89846875,"end":254.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":255.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.01221875000002,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.40034375000002,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.17096875000004,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.42409375,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.69409375000004,"end":266.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.08221875000004,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.18346875000003,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.20034375,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.36909375,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":286.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.04096875,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.62284375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.93846875,"end":297.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.24596875000003,"end":303.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.50721875,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.35471875,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.10534375000003,"end":312.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.96534375000005,"end":313.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.88909375000003,"end":317.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","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我現在想問的就是說如果說就是英國這個NGO組織如果他的調查報告是真實的狀態的時候十三家裡面只有一家他有一個合法的一個來源那就台灣來講國際形象一定是不好的所以我們這次在修這個遠洋漁業條例的時候"},{"start":113.743,"end":139.241,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項。此外,我們也希望說後續能夠把這個可能產生的一些問題把它圍堵起來。對消費者來講的時候,比方說可能有很多人喜歡吃,可是他們也不想吃到非法的一個來源的部分。餐廳他們在做這個食材的過程當中,他們可能也不想要進口到非法的食材。那我們政府如果去確保你進來的食材是能夠是合法的,是符合我們自己修法的規則的。"},{"start":140.322,"end":141.103,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":170.843,"end":191.785,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":192.984,"end":221.397,"text":"七十九人 七十九人跟我得到的數字差距很大那不管是我這邊得到的是二十九人或者是你講的七十九人我們最後再來釐清一下我這邊得到的數字是二十九人那一千零三十三艘遠洋漁船當中你要去做這樣的一個檢查顯然是不夠的那如果說我們接下來的時候我們修法之後我們希望能夠說漁獲都是合法的狀態我們認為限於檢查員可能要再增加好不好"},{"start":223.124,"end":223.424,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":241.693,"end":263.379,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項：立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":266.42,"end":267.14,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":295.657,"end":316.948,"text":"你所說的就是當發生這樣的穿途的時候主管的到底是要用野保法還是要用動保法?這個要看好他本身的動物類別那一般的所以現在動物類別就是白鼻青是保育類啊別蚌犬可能就是一般的那個白鼻青現在已經不是保育類的OK那如果是不到保育類的狀態的時候你要怎麼去做處理?"},{"start":317.768,"end":336.629,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":338.257,"end":360.208,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":361.808,"end":383.482,"text":"對,他出去的時候他本身的動物是用野保法去做相關的…所以我舉這幾個例子最主要就是說因為以現在的一個狀態的時候很多時候野保法跟凍保法它其實是混在一起那對民眾來講其實也是混淆的那主管單位一個是野保法是林業署在管對不對那凍保法是凍保室在管"},{"start":384.443,"end":405.672,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":406.992,"end":434.52,"text":"或者是一個動物的保護專線、動保專線或者是也是一個保護專線。現在本來就有對不對?對,本來就有。OK,那我們對這部分是不是能夠去加強一個宣導?因為在2021年的時候新竹南寮發生了一個那個游蚌犬追複人,結果後來複人跌倒、死掉,引起國賠的事件。部長知道這個事情嗎?對不對?對。那麼我記得我們在2021年之後呢,其實就"},{"start":435.623,"end":453.009,"text":"條文修正草案．一、三十六條之一及第十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":460.911,"end":487.458,"text":"因為禁止餵養以後．﹏理解,不只因為時間有限,我想問一下就是在2021年這一次的會議之後我們有哪些改善?我今天講因為在那一次當中我們跟地方政府的一個承辦人員問卷調查當中大家都認為很重要的一個部分就是要增加行政資源請問三年過來了我們農業部這邊給了地方政府多少的一個行政資源的增加?"},{"start":488.345,"end":489.266,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"}]}},{"id":"151034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bad0a7dd4e8f7d6b1e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6fe35119236caa9935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:06:23 - 10:15:19","影片長度":"00:08:56","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":536,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:15:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T10:06:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時6分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，關於今天討論的議案，我們先針對漁業的部分，2022年美國國家海洋暨大氣總署發布了國際漁業管理改善報告，但臺灣有兩件事情卻上了榜單，第一個是非法漁業，第二個是混獲海龜，這兩項登上了它的不名譽榜單，而且是首次上榜。我個人認為我們必須要加油，所以遠洋漁業條例的修正非常的重要。換句話說，我們也必須配合整個國際間共同合作打擊非法、未報告或不受規範漁撈作業，我們必須強化進口管制措施，落實遠洋漁業管理，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席想聽聽看，當您看到這兩項登上了榜單，你心裡做何感想？"],["陳代理部長駿季：針對打擊IUU，我們國家從107年開始就非常非常的努力，之前的這些黃單，我們也好不容易解除了，但是在相關圍網的部分，有時候會誤捕到一些類似海龜混獲的部分，這個混獲的部分，我們漁業署現在也在處理，包括在漁具上面去做一些改良，像減少混獲的這些裝置，而這些裝置其實在國外通用的漁法裡面都已經有一些很好的成功案例了，所以我們已經有在加強這部分魚法的一個改良。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼加強，請你書面資料給本席。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：依照剛剛部長的這個說法，並沒有回答到本席問你這兩項不名譽登上了榜單，你的心裡做何感想……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不好受啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然不好受，但是我們要怎麼樣積極作為，比方說如果會混獲到，但海龜沒有人不認識牠的，好嗎？所以這樣子的說法我們沒有辦法接受，但是我們鼓勵你們積極研討方案出來，所以你把書面資料提供給本席。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全世界各國已經有這麼多好的方案，我們趕快拿出來檢討，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要跟你討論的，今天動保團體也在群賢樓外面，他們非常的關心，大家也關心，我相信部長你也非常的關心，所以在這樣情況之下，針對捕獸鋏還有金屬套索，所謂的山豬吊，本席跟我們同仁也都提出修正動議，在第十九條裡頭，我們提出的是全面禁止金屬套索，但是我們看到你的報告當中，似乎是不朝著全面禁止，還好你剛才的報告是說要循序漸進，是不是這樣子？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的循序漸進，第一個，你說你要用改良式的方法……"],["陳代理部長駿季：改良式的獵具。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說口改小一點，讓我們的黑熊不會套進去，可是我真的很難過，我們這麼重要的寶貝，最近這幾年竟然有5次被夾！看到這個數字，我真的心痛啊！那怎麼辦呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這次這些獸鋏我們禁掉了，但是在其他獵具的部分，像山豬吊這個部分，因為目前靠近山區的農民還有原住民，他還是有必要的狩獵工具，所以我們採用循序漸進，就是改良式的獵具……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：工具當然要啊！但是方法的部分，其他國家比如說英國、澳洲、丹麥、匈牙利，他們都已經禁止會致命的陷阱，他們都已經禁止啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，那是獸鋏，他們禁止的是獸鋏的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才委員所提到的，像這張照片所看到的獵具，就是像山豬吊之類的，我們已經有一些改良式的方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看看那個狗狗腳被截斷了，你看看那個貓貓也是被截斷了，甚至連黑熊都受害，怎麼辦？"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們剛才有特別提到，第十九條已經有授權我們在適當的時間可以公告，我們現在正在積極推動這些改良式獵具，以後相對的能夠逐步去取代，然後再一段時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席還是沒有辦法接受你剛剛在報告當中說你要循序漸進，因為我們也聽不到你的循序漸進、你的流程、你的時間點到底是怎麼樣！所以我希望、我也拜託你，將你們預計要怎麼做以書面資料給本席。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席的提案是不能再受這些獵具傷害，也希望你能夠支持。當然你們的版本現在還沒送過來，但未來法通過之後，包括你們在執行過程當中，電商、製造、販售這些應該都在你們版本的限制裡？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，在動保法裡針對相關獵具不得製造、販賣、生產還有陳列，在那個部分都有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要特別提出，因為現在的銷售方式，也就是電商平臺，大家都用得非常方便，所以這部分必須要納入你們的約束範圍，對不對？同意吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們後續……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：電商平臺這部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為大部分現在很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：危害的部分也不能放在這上面，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們好不容易有一個共識。好，謝謝，我們繼續討論。自2017年零安樂死政策實施後，2018年有六千多隻犬貓絕育後被回置街頭，之後每年逐年增加，2022年及2023年已突破2萬多隻。請問有關TNR，也就是捕捉、絕育、釋放到底該怎麼辦？動保專家說狗狗結紮要滿四個月，術後還必須觀察七天，這樣放出去才不會受害。我們可以看到街頭一些貓狗腸子都破掉了，甚至因此沒了生命，這讓我們很難過。到底TNR怎麼做？SOP流程怎麼做？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，TNVR制度本身必須根據不同地區的環境去處理，就回置部分，現在是由收容所來處理。針對TNVR本身來說，我覺得人是一個非常重要的因素，也就是餵養，因為地區上一些人的不當餵養，會導致其族群越來越大，所以現在很重要的就是要去處理人的態度跟他的行為。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，人的態度跟行為當然就是用這樣的觀念去宣導，就政府的TNR制度來說，只是結紮並沒有觀察，所以你不知道後來又放回街頭，導致兩萬多隻……"],["陳代理部長駿季：過去是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這部分我們必須要去落實，好不好？請把整個SOP流程……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們把指引再提供給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：詳細書面資料給我，我們一定要精進TNR，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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案件的減少混和的這些裝置,那這些裝置其實在國外的這些通用的這些漁法裡面都有已經有有很好的成功的案例了,所以我們已經有在加強這部分的這些漁法的一個改良,你怎麼加強請你書面資料給本席,因為如果依照剛剛部長你所說的這個說法,"},{"start":144.019,"end":161.797,"text":"沒有回答本席請問你說這兩項不明日登上了榜單你的心裡作何感想不好受啊對不好受當然但是我們要怎麼樣積極作為那你如果說這個會去混和到海關沒有人不認識他的是"},{"start":162.858,"end":163.058,"text":"全世界各國已經有這麼多"},{"start":177.895,"end":203.372,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案的方案都非常好我們趕快拿出來好不好趕快拿出來來檢討接下來本席要跟你討論的就今天動保團體也在群選樓的外面他們非常的關心大家也關心我相信部長你也非常的關心所以在這樣情況之下因為這個因為這個捕獸甲還有金屬的這個套索那我們所謂的山豬釣"},{"start":205.113,"end":225.525,"text":"本席也跟我們同仁也都提出修正動議在第十九條裡頭我們提出的是全面的禁止這個金屬的這個部分但是我們看到你的報告當中你似乎是不朝著全面禁止但是還好你剛剛的報告是說循性漸進是不是這樣子你所謂的循性漸進你說了幾項第一個你說你要把"},{"start":233.95,"end":259.767,"text":"這個套這個改良式的用改良式的方法改良式的列具改良式你說口小一點讓我們的黑熊不會套進去可是我真的很難過的是說我們竟然在我們的這麼重要的寶貝我們竟然最近有這幾年有五次被夾我看到這個數字我真的心痛啊那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":262.148,"end":283.716,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們這次這些獸甲我們禁掉但是在這個列具的部分其他列具像山豬釣這個部分因為現在目前在我們的農民的靠近山區的還有原住民他還是有有必要的一個狩獵的一個工具所以我們採用循序就是改良式的列具其他國家比如說"},{"start":287.077,"end":315.324,"text":"英國、澳洲、丹麥、匈牙利他們都已經禁止會致命的陷阱啊他們都已經禁止了啊對那是售假他們禁止的是售假的部分對啊對那我現在講的剛才委員所提到的像這支照片所看到的都是列具列具就是像山豬調之類的齁那我們已經有一些你看看那個狗狗腳被截斷了你看看貓貓被截斷了甚至連黑熊都受害對怎麼辦"},{"start":317.048,"end":344.754,"text":"所以我們剛才有特別提到在第十九條已經有授權我們可以去公告適當的時間可以公告那我們現在正在積極的推動這些改良式的列據以後那相對的能夠逐步的去取代那在一段時間本期還是沒有辦法接受你剛剛在報告當中說你循序漸進因為我們也聽不到你的循序漸進你的流程你的時間點到底是怎麼樣所以我也希望我也拜託你將你們預計要怎麼做的"},{"start":346.374,"end":350.356,"text":"條文修正草案案案項目,其中其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,其中一項項目,"},{"start":367.205,"end":373.89,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條"},{"start":391.764,"end":392.004,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件。"},{"start":411.975,"end":424.842,"text":"2017年離婚熱死政策實施之後2018年有6000多隻的犬貓他絕育之後就回制到街頭去但是我們看到每一年逐年的增加2022年到2023年你是突破了2萬多隻所以我們整個的TNR我們的捕捉、絕育以及釋放我們到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":436.989,"end":440.75,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一條條文修正草案 案件中的其中一條條文修正草案"},{"start":464.754,"end":480.283,"text":"我跟委員說明,TNVR這個制度本身他必須要根據不同的地區的環境去處理所以我們本身在相關的這些回制的部分我們現在是採用收容所的部分去處理"},{"start":481.303,"end":495.794,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":497.756,"end":498.136,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例"},{"start":514.087,"end":515.108,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"151033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b0285e1bd7e916f2a039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a66a72962f41d473255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:01:27 - 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Innovative的精神，組成這樣的內閣，但是呢，不只沒有未來，AI還只有少少一頁，又都在回顧過去，我們的AI中長期戰略到底是什麼？五年要做什麼？十年要做什麼？裡面真的是幾乎沒有提到。主委已經準備要卸任了，期末報告應該很重要啊，不管是交接還是續任，如果真的是這樣，依照賴準總統的標準，國科會可能會被死當，拿不到畢業證書，更何況主要擔當的主委還沒有來啊！請問一下副主委，什麼原因為什麼吳主委今天沒有親自與會備詢？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：他請假參加院會，行政院院會。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們已經查過了，今天院會的主題全部都是花蓮的災後問題，根本就跟國科會沒有關係。沒有關係啦，我想今天您來這裡會不會其實透露了一個訊息，會不會副主委未來非常有可能接任國科會主委？是不是人選啊？我們是不是要先提前恭賀您，您即將要高升，升任科技政委兼國科會主委？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：完全沒有聽過這件事。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有聽過是不是？好，如果你沒有聽過，接下來不管你是續任還是高升，我想過去的政績還是很重要，您過去最滿意的政策成績是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想最重要的，我們是把很多不同領域跟跨部會的部分，把重要的科技跟面向串聯在一起，也就是說，我們剛剛在口頭報告的經濟面跟社會面，所有……"],["葛委員如鈞：待會您回去看一下重播，看看您這樣的回答是不是滿意，沒有關係，我想無論如何，您身為副主委，不管未來高升或續任，希望你們都可以好好地準備交接清單，讓接下來的同僚可以持續地來前進。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：無論520之後誰來領導國科會，本席都希望務必兌現當初主委曾經承諾的，儘快將AI基本法的草案送到立院。本席也要強調，期待AI基本法當中應該要涵蓋AI國際情勢的瞭解、AI產業現況調查的規範。本席手上這是國科會做的，很棒，所以我們真的在此予以鼓勵，2022年臺灣AI國力調查，大概很多人不知道有這個東西，但現在2024年了，我們新的閣揆上來了，希望能夠趕快來做新的版本，持續都要推出，甚至放到我們的AI基本法的規劃當中，每年應該要持續更新，幫助產官學研界快速地掌握AI脈動。","接下來想瞭解一下副主委對於AI晶片產業的藍圖，根據國科會的資料顯示，因應生成式AI的快速發展，我們有晶創計畫，還有所謂的AI行動計畫2.0，這兩者可以說相輔相成，但是我們其實還是想要問，這二個計畫，這個蘋果、Apple Pen這樣合在一起，到底我們是要重軟、重硬，還是軟硬兼施？到底我們要重大還是重小？重新創還是大型產業？還是我們大小都要？可不可以簡要地回答一下？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：2023年到2026年的臺灣AI行動計畫是一個跨部會的綱領計畫，事實上是希望既有的AI技術要落地，晶片驅動臺灣產業創新計畫裡面的AI部分是很重要針對現在生成式AI新的硬體跟軟體的發展，所以這個部分一定要快速……"],["葛委員如鈞：軟硬兼施？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，是非常重要。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那大型還是小型？我們是要補助新創還是補助大型、高尖？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：新創是對於利用生成式AI跟它的新型技術的新創計畫，我們會極力支持，也就是說……"],["葛委員如鈞：應該大小都要？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，如果沒有……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好，謝謝！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：如果沒有計畫，當然就很難有很好的……"],["葛委員如鈞：其中有一部分的經費發到經濟部去做晶創計畫補助業者創新研發，看起來是大小兼施，但是做法我們覺得有一點疑義。首先，其中有8億要補助新創，不知道副主委知不知道，現在國際的趨勢在補助新創上不是純補助，應該是投資，但我們這裡面只是純補助，又沒有拿股份。如果要投資或者是補助大型的，你們自己寫的「大型+攻堅業者為主」，定位是前瞻技術研發與突破，而且還是晶片IC設計，12億臺幣真的是杯水車薪，這是什麼規模？我跟副主委分享一下，伊隆‧馬斯克併購推特的時候，這家公司他花了440億美金，相當於1.4兆臺幣，12億臺幣的預算約3,000萬美金，到底可以補助什麼樣的大型IC設計產業、高尖技術？如果我們沒有辦法好好地去做調整，新創業者也沒有扶植好，大型攻堅業者可能又看不上，如果真的要補助新創，我們就多一點補助，甚至拿股份；如果要補助大型的，我們也要有足夠的資源，否則的話可能兩頭都空了。現在真的看起來很多機制在促進，但是相關的各類資源真的是非常地混亂。","我們來看一下，雖然我們在經濟部中小企業署有相關窗口，看到有一些整理，包含這一本也有一些整理，我在這邊來朗讀一下來跟AI有關的政府小組或中心，國家智慧推動小組，國科會有國家AI推動小組，臺灣AI卓越中心，中研院有人工智慧創新應用專題中心，國科會補助設立AI創新研究中心，經濟部的經濟部領航企業研發深耕計畫─A+企業創新研發淬鍊計畫，IC設計攻頂補助計畫，驅動國內IC設計業者先進發展補助計畫，我就是利用我的時間把它唸出來給你聽，還有DIGITAL+數位創新補助，智慧國家方案DIGI+2.0，AI領航推動計畫二代，產業AI落地概念驗證補助，AI應用服務化驗證補助，AI應用……，我真的已經有點累了，但真的不好意思，琳瑯滿目的小組、中心、計畫，我相信都是善意，但是很可能卻成為惡意的迷宮，讓產業界感到眼花繚亂、前途茫茫！我們既然這麼關注，又有這麼多的資源，我們能不能協助產業、產官學，把相關的資訊、單位、補助、投資做一個整合，建立類似Yellow pages或者是BUILT-IN Taiwan、AI＠Taiwan這樣的一個創業整合或者資源展現的一站式服務？我們這邊給你一個idea啦，AI＠Taiwan還可以順便呼應一下新內閣，幫賴準總統宣傳解釋，我們這裡講的AI是artificial intelligence，跟他昨天發布的Active and Innovative有一點不一樣，一起放在這裡，有多國語言，讓全世界知道我們臺灣對二個AI都很重視，這不是很好嗎？所以我想能不能請國科會研議建立這個機制的規劃，我們有很多預算可以動用啊，能不能二週之內給本席回復，我們有沒有機會去好好地整理一下剛剛利用了我2分鐘時間所朗讀的這些？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：非常謝謝委員剛剛唸出一些比較個別的計畫，目前其實計畫非常重要的參加部會，比如說國科會、經濟部……"],["葛委員如鈞：可不可以二週之內研議提供？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：可以，我們會提供一個架構。"],["葛委員如鈞：拜託了，謝謝。","最後，我時間有限，我們要問的是採購的計畫，有關高速運算主機的建置，我們過去買了9台主機、72片H100，再來要擴充到16 PFLOPs，接下來我們到底要怎麼做？我們現在TAIDE有7B、有13B，但它是沒有公開的，但是昨天法國的新創公司Mistral公布的是176B，開源給大家用的，我們接下來到底是還要買H100嗎？買也沒有關係，但是現在已經有B100、B200，甚至GB200 Superchip，我們有沒有辦法先預定、能不能先匡列預算？不然等到我們覺得要買的時候，各國已經在排隊了，結果我們這麼優秀的輝達，我們臺灣做了這麼多貢獻的產品，我們很可能自己買不到啊！我們有沒有機會去採購或者預定新發布的B系列？或者有沒有相關同等規模的產品，有沒有規劃預定的時程？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：細節部分我請主任說明。"],["張主任朝亮：113年目前的規劃，您剛剛提的沒有錯，第一期，就是今年會建16個Peta FLOPs，但是從114年開始我們會建100到120個Peta FLOPs的新機器，這裡面都是有可能的，新的機器都還在評估。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝喔，我們比較一下，我們之前買72片，接下來就算買個100片、500片都遠遠不足啦！人家是買了3萬2,000塊，Meta是35萬顆，我們當然不能跟這些企業去比，但是也不能差太多啦，同時會有新的東西一直出來，我們不能等到我們發現要買了再來匡列預算，最後去買的時候我們只剩下菜尾，我們大家不管是年輕人打電競，還是國科會購買國家級的高速運算中心，我們都應該要有這個概念，應該要提前編列預算去預定未來最好用的、所謂趨勢上的設備嘛，對吧？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想委員提供一個非常重要的觀點，就是我們雖然整體的預算比不上人家，但是我們要事先規劃，有自己的戰略，去買我們真正需要、刀口上的這個設備，而且要提前……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，想必是同意啦？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個大的方向事實上是國科會一直在努力的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，麻煩國科會的同仁也協助注意一下，本席真的只是要提醒國科會，我們要及早部署跟規劃……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：非常謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：才有機會儘快採購到最新的設備啦，因為等到我們意識到要買的時候很可能已經排隊都排二年了，接著又出新的了，C100、C200……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：所以要提前部署。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後，如何在先進國家和國際企業的激烈競爭之下走出一條屬於我們自己的路，產學研甚至官，一定也是期待有各種的幫忙跟協作，讓政府成為真正的AI內閣、AI政府、AI臺灣，幫助大家儘可能地減少走彎路，我們已經落後了，老實說，協助大家降低投入產業的時候不必要的浪費和資源，而且讓全世界的人才跟資源可以一起聚集到臺灣，臺灣的能量也可以擴散到全世界，好不好？謝謝。謝謝副主委，謝謝主席。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，非常謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。再來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林倩綺","陳冠廷","邱志偉"],"page_start":321,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.36159375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.92721875,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.69909375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.52159375,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.89596875,"end":63.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.62784375000001,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.76159375,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.51909375000001,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.49659375000002,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.81284375,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.69096875000002,"end":325.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.58346875,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.08409375,"end":347.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.55096875000004,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.96346875,"end":363.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.27034375,"end":361.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.06284375,"end":569.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.71846875,"end":569.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.39346875,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.42596875,"end":579.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.0247187500001,"end":645.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.36221875,"end":583.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.9384687500001,"end":646.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.5122187500001,"end":646.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.57971875,"end":647.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.2334687499999,"end":648.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.41471875,"end":667.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.7747187500001,"end":710.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.54409375,"end":685.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.7634687500001,"end":686.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.29971875,"end":725.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.71159375,"end":722.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.6728437500001,"end":772.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.6897187500001,"end":725.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.78159375,"end":732.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.97846875,"end":768.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.62346875,"end":773.02409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.804,"end":16.072,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國科會林秉聰副主委備詢好 有請林副主委"},{"start":25.033,"end":45.135,"text":"副主委今天的專題報告的題目非常棒國家科技發展策略與布局是一個非常前瞻從國家的高度來談整體科技發展大方向的重要題目但是我真的忍不住要講薄薄的十四頁都是交代過去"},{"start":46.63,"end":67.165,"text":"甚至沒有現在跟未來我們都翻過了105年講到112年都沒有在講未來請問我們國家科技發展的策略到底是什麼布局到底是什麼這到底是專題報告還是回顧想請教一下副主委最簡單的一題今年是民國幾年"},{"start":68.632,"end":92.205,"text":"民國113（2020我可以回去看一下這裡面到底有多少東西在提113年以後的東西啦報告裡面提到了很多項目人工智慧、太空資安都很棒但是裡面都是過去的新聞內容還有你們過去已經決定的東西現在全世界正在關注的議題Robotaxi 8月可能要發布智慧機器人Robot LearningHumanoid"},{"start":94.327,"end":110.347,"text":"這個區塊鏈、腦機介面、基因編輯等等在這份報告裡面可以說是資質未提、複資缺乳啦我可不可以問為什麼?在哪裡有嗎?這份裡面有沒有?我想所有的包括很多大型的計畫或者包括這個八大的這個技術平台事實上都是放遠2035的"},{"start":112.769,"end":132.749,"text":"請副主委回去翻一下專題報告裡面到底有多少在講未來我可以直接給各位答案在第13頁第三部分3-1的第二段260個字在講今年以後的未來"},{"start":135.712,"end":154.204,"text":"我想這是事實我們就不多說了但是昨天賴準副總統發表的內閣名單說要秉持行動創新active innovative的精神組成這樣的內閣但是不只沒有未來AI還只有少少一面又都在回顧過去我們到底AI的中長期戰略到底是什麼"},{"start":154.684,"end":154.784,"text":"他請假參加院會"},{"start":182.319,"end":205.888,"text":"我們已經查過了今天院會的主題全部都是花蓮的災後的問題根本就跟國會沒有關係沒有關係那我想今天您來這裡會不會其實透露了一個訊息會不會副主委可能未來非常有可能接任國會主委是不是人選我們是不是要先提前恭賀您您即將要高升升任科技政委兼國會主委"},{"start":206.568,"end":206.749,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":223.969,"end":224.189,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":247.316,"end":261.862,"text":"這個可以持續的來前進那無論520之後誰來領導國科會本席都希望務必兌現當初主委曾經承諾的盡快看到AI基本法的草案送到立院本席也要強調期待AI基本法當中應該要涵蓋AI國際情勢的瞭解AI產業的現況調查的規範這是國科會做得很棒所以我們真的在此予以鼓勵2022年台灣AI國力調查大概很多人不知道這個東西"},{"start":275.748,"end":293.738,"text":"但現在2024年了我們新的革規上來了希望能夠趕快的來做新的版本持續都要推出甚至放到我們的AI基本法的規劃當中每年應該要持續更新幫助產官學員界的快速的掌握AI脈動接下來想了解一下副主委對於AI晶片產業的藍圖根據這個國會資料的顯示"},{"start":298.62,"end":307.026,"text":"應應生成式AI的快速發展我們有金創計畫還有這個所謂的AI行動2.0的計畫這兩者可以說相輔相成但是我們其實還是想要問說這兩個計畫這樣子這個蘋果Apple Pen這樣合在一起到底我們是要重軟還是重硬還是軟硬兼施到底我們要重大還是重小重新創還是大型產業還是我們大小都要可不可以簡要的回答一下"},{"start":326.266,"end":343.491,"text":"2023年到2026年的台灣AI行動計畫是一個跨部會的綱領計畫它事實上是希望以既有的AI技術要落地那晶片驅動台灣產業創新計畫裡面的AI的部分是很重要針對現在生成式AI新的硬體跟軟體的發展"},{"start":344.591,"end":361.186,"text":"所以軟硬堅持大型還是小型我們是要補助新創還是補助大型高尖新創是對於這個利用深層式AI跟他的新型技術的深創計畫我們會極力支持應該大小都要如果沒有計畫當然就很難有"},{"start":363.168,"end":368.733,"text":"其中有一部分的經費發到經濟部來做這個金創計畫補助業者創新研發看起來是大小兼施但是做法我們覺得有一點疑義首先其中8億要補助新創不知道副主委知不知道我們現在國際的趨勢補助新創不是純補助應該是投資這裡面只是純補助又沒有拿股份"},{"start":384.446,"end":393.77,"text":"如果我要投資或補助大型公間業者為主﹑前瞻技術研發突破﹑晶片IC設計,12億台幣是杯水車薪,這是什麼規模?"},{"start":401.374,"end":407.902,"text":"伊隆馬斯克並購推特的時候這家公司他花了440億美金相當於1.4兆台幣12億台幣的預算3000萬美金是到底可以補助什麼樣的大型IC設計產業高階技術這個我想"},{"start":419.355,"end":444.046,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法好好地去做調整新創業者也沒有扶植好大型公間業者可能又看不上如果真的要補助新創我們就多一點如果要補助這個甚至拿股份如果要補助大型的我們也要足夠的資源否則的話可能兩頭都空了現在真的看起來很多機制在促進但是相關的各類資源真的是非常的混亂我們來看一下"},{"start":445.466,"end":465.502,"text":"雖然我們有在經濟部中小企業署有相關窗口看到有些整理,包含這一本也有一些整理,但是我這邊來朗讀一下,來朗讀一下,跟AI有關的政府小組或中心,國家智慧推動小組,國家AI推動小組,大家都可以注意,台灣AI卓越中心,"},{"start":466.363,"end":477.05,"text":"中研院還有人工智慧創新應用專題中心．國科會補助設立AI創新研究中心．領航企業研發生根計畫大AI Plus．IC設計工庭補助計畫．驅動國內．"},{"start":484.375,"end":510.911,"text":"IC設計業者發展補助計劃．DigitalPlus數位創新補助．智慧國家方案DG2.0．AI領黃推動計劃二代．產業AI落地概念驗證補助．AI應用服務化驗證補助．AI應用．我真的已經有點累了．但真的不好意思．琳瑯滿目小組中心計劃．我相信都是善意．但是很可能卻成為惡意的迷宮．讓產業界的眼花撩亂前途茫茫．"},{"start":513.072,"end":533.354,"text":"我們既然這麼關注又有這麼多的資源我們能不能協助產業、產官學把相關的資訊、單位、補助、投資做一個整合建立類似Yellow Page或者是Build in Taiwan、AI at Taiwan這樣的一個創業整合或者資源展現的一站式服務我們這邊給你一個idea"},{"start":535.416,"end":553.396,"text":"AI at Taiwan還可以順便呼應一下新內閣幫賴總統宣傳解釋我們這裡講的AI是Artificial Intelligence跟我們昨天發布的Active and Innovative有一點不一樣一起放在這裡有多國語言讓全世界知道我們台灣兩個AI都很重視這不是很好嗎"},{"start":556.619,"end":556.819,"text":"可不可以兩週之內研議?"},{"start":579.364,"end":583.047,"text":"我們會提供一個架構最後時間有限我們要問的是採購的計畫這個高速運算主機的建制我們過去買了9台主機72片的H100再來要買16這個擴充到16P Flops接下來我們到底要怎麼做我們現在台德有7B有13B是沒有公開的"},{"start":604.224,"end":615.538,"text":"但是呢昨天法國的新創公司Mixro公布的是176B開源給大家用的我們接下來到底是還要買H100嗎買也沒有關係但是現在已經有B100 B200甚至GB200 Super Chip"},{"start":621.525,"end":621.645,"text":"我們細節可以請"},{"start":650.191,"end":666.736,"text":"113年目前目前規劃您剛剛提的沒有錯第一期我們會建就是今年會建16個Peta Flop但是從114開始我們會建100到120個Peta Flop的新機器那這裡面可能包括的都是有可能的新的機器"},{"start":668.296,"end":695.075,"text":"謝謝我們比較一下我們72片接下來就算買個100片500片都遠遠不足啦人家是買個這多少三萬兩千塊然後呢這是什麼Meta是35萬顆那我們當然不能跟這些企業去比但我們不能差太多啦同時有新的東西一直出來我們不能等到我們發現要買了再來匡列預算最後去買的時候我們剩下來是菜尾"},{"start":695.555,"end":695.615,"text":"主席"},{"start":725.695,"end":744.768,"text":"麻煩國科會的同仁也協助注意一下本席真的只是要提醒國科會我們要及早部署跟規劃才有機會盡快採購到最新的設備因為等到我們意識到要買的時候很可能已經排隊都排兩年了接著又出新的C100 C200最後我想如何在先進國家和國際企業的激烈競爭之下"},{"start":745.709,"end":745.869,"text":"謝謝副主委"}]}},{"id":"151032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bbc9e4ce86ffbb8d13e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6336af6a97fec288a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:04:49 - 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要誰的責任 本院的責任 請看下一頁除此之外 我們目前最大的境外敵對勢力是哪裡"},{"start":187.827,"end":216.628,"text":"不用外求就在兩三百公里遠的地方叫做中國中華人民共和國在我們兩岸人民關係條例當中進入大陸地區要怎麼樣要審查會審查許可包括國安局法務部跟陸委會和相關機關組成的審查會請問剛剛所說的如果立法委員在參與進行調查權涉及到的秘密會議當中有觸及到會損害到國家利益的時候"},{"start":217.949,"end":228.695,"text":"當這些人要去兩岸進行經常平民的交流的時候要不要經過審查出境前要不要報告回國要不要報告所以這也是兩岸條例第9條"},{"start":230.168,"end":247.024,"text":"第三項要面對處理的所以今天當我們談到立法院要強化職權 國會要有調查權 要有聽證權要能夠要求公務機關有不得拒絕 只要是基於立法相關核心持權要進行的不只文件調閱 這些公務機關必須來說明"},{"start":250.467,"end":251.128,"text":"公聽委員．鍾佳濱公聽委員．鍾佳濱"},{"start":272.327,"end":286.875,"text":"我們不斷地強調包括昨天的公聽會也有包括不分各政黨所推薦的專家學者代表都提到了其實最重要的當我們行使權力的相對面就是自律立法院單靠自律是不夠的"},{"start":287.535,"end":287.655,"text":"公聽委員：鍾佳濱：鍾佳濱"}]}},{"id":"151031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bfc91a3f27130c0efe63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6ad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:57:56 - 10:06:21","影片長度":"00:08:25","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":505,"end_time":"2024-04-11T10:06:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:57:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（9時58分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：呂委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，花蓮在這次的地震中是主災區，我們看到蘇花公路都被中斷了，包括整個農漁業，不管是農田也好，他們的農具還是漁網都被地震給震壞了，房屋倒塌等等，這些部分都是農業部所看到的，除了農田以外，我們看到還有家畜的禽舍部分以及水路部分，這些部分你們會不會專案補助？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，就是行政院針對這次地震，花蓮部分我們跨部會在第一時間就去處理，各部會本身針對各部會所看到的這些災損部分，以我們農業部來講，針對漁業部分，就是我們的定置網，有一些農田部分還有畜牧部分，這些部分我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為這次的災情慘重，我希望農業部可以成立專案，從寬來給他們補助，尤其像是水路或者是水土保持，公共設施你們都會去做，但是禽舍部分你們也應該從寬給他們協助去重建。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，我們一定會從寬，我舉個例子，像漁業設施在天然災害救助大概只有30萬，我們現在已經有把它提高，然後也要報行政院用專案的方式處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，那如果沒有去投保農業保險的可以去申請嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個跟農業保險沒有關係，只要我們認定它是天然災害，地震就是天然災害。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我們應該從寬來幫忙救災、重建，這條路很漫長，所以要我們政府機關一起協助來做。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會積極去處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：包括在農業部底下有一個農金署，我們對於災害地區的這些災戶，在貸款部分有可以展延的申請補助計畫，對不對？有4項。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其在這次的情況之下，你們是不是可以做到展延免息的部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在針對一般的貸款跟專案貸款有展延一年的方式。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以還是可以從寬……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，就是展延一年。"],["呂委員玉玲：也用專案的方式可以給他們延緩更多的時間……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，展延時間內是免息的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是、是、是，因為你們的時間比較短，像這次花蓮災區這麼嚴重，這個期限可以延長一點，如兩年、三年的，你看有各種狀況，現在有4項嘛！是否每一項的展延時間都給他們延長一點，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想……"],["呂委員玉玲：用專案來考量，討論一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會考量，但是這個也要考慮到其他產業單位的一致性，這是我們會考量的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以一併討論跟研究一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，行政院都有定期在開會。"],["呂委員玉玲：雖然現在的花蓮主災區，你們已經有公告了，但是這次的地震是全臺灣，沒有在花蓮主災區的、沒有被公告的其他地方也一併，只要是受災的災民都可以申請。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是一體適用。"],["呂委員玉玲：全部一體適用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。接下來本席就要請問一下，今天是野保法法條的修正草案，野保法今天在經濟委員會已經排審了，請問動保法什麼時候會進來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：動保法……"],["呂委員玉玲：在上一屆第7會期的時候，你們說會期結束前會送進來，這個會期還沒看到行政院送到立法院，什麼時候？"],["陳代理部長駿季：動保法我們有送到行政院，後來在行政院討論的時候又回到農業部，因為有一些條文……"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼會回去，有什麼問題嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有一些條文可能還要再做一些調整。"],["呂委員玉玲：哪一部分的條文？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我請副司長說明。"],["呂委員玉玲：有爭議？什麼條文不能送進來？"],["陳副司長中興：因為動物保護法在我們預告的時候，社會各界包括動保團體，包括一些其他的，針對我們預告的條文有很多的意見，所以我們統整後，針對一些比較有爭議……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們統整、討論、研究、研議已經這麼久了，野保法都送進來審了，你們動保法還沒有送進來，陳部長……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們這個……"],["呂委員玉玲：陳部長，這個會期結束之前送進來，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我必須要說明，就是我們修完了以後，還要送到行政院會審議，我們一定會送到行政院去。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你趕快送行政院，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來就是討論我們的野保法，針對野保法第十九條，我看到農業部並沒有回應動保團體，尤其是針對山豬吊的金屬套索陷阱，部長剛剛的說法是我們會採改良式的，我們不曉得改良式指的是什麼樣的情況。另外，在第二十一條的部分，如果有特殊緊急狀況，危害公共安全或民眾生命的時候，我們可以適用第十九條第一項到第六項，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們就應該把它設限進去，尤其是第十九條的第一項到第六項，我只看到你們的回應是第一、二、六這三項是不可以使用的，部長，最讓我們擔心的就是第三、四、五項，毒物、炸藥還有其他特殊獵捕的工具。部長，我想請問，為什麼需要炸藥、需要毒物？這個部分你們並沒有去做回應，你們還要繼續使用。"],["陳代理部長駿季：炸藥的部分最主要是與漁業有關，關於漁業或是電的部分，因為在陸域上面，基本上不會用炸藥去捕獵動物，但在漁業的話，比方說捕魚的時候，有時候會有一些炸藥的使用，這個我請署長說明一下。"],["林署長華慶：我說明一下，這個是因為以前有設想一些可能比較特殊的狀況，比如說外來種或某些有害生物大量繁衍的時候，此時要去做一個立即的防治，這個規定是有保留的，所以一般是不能使用這些方法。"],["呂委員玉玲：針對用炸藥跟毒物有去限制嗎？有去規範嗎？"],["林署長華慶：那個是很特殊的狀況下，所以這個是很早期，當時漁業單位建議保留的……"],["呂委員玉玲：那是很早期，所以現在還適用嗎？"],["林署長華慶：這個部分可能我們要再跟漁業署這邊會商……"],["呂委員玉玲：我希望你回應炸藥跟毒物的部分，好不好？"],["張署長致盛：對於漁具、漁法是有一定的規範，像炸魚這種方式本來就是不允許的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們現在回應我因為是漁業，而野生動物法裡面還沒有適用嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才我們署長提到，保留炸藥跟相關的規定，是因為因應緊急的狀況，我們必須要去處理，如果我們沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以因應緊急狀況的話，在第十九條裡面就有了，對不對？所以你們必須要去回應，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。我們會在立法說明做一個說明。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝主席，請給我最後一分鐘。我要請問的是，現在我們講的野保法第三十七條跟第五十條，飼養的業主要回報給地方政府，地方政府他們沒有專業的經驗、物資還有資源去做圍捕的工作，是不是我們中央主管機關，尤其是林業署，也應該視為相關的主管機關，一起來做圍捕的工作，這樣才會更加的積極、有效。"],["林署長華慶：我們有在培力地方政府，這個是中央跟地方要一起吸收、努力的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以業主回報給地方政府，地方政府再回報給我們中央林業署，好不好？"],["林署長華慶：我們會一起來。"],["呂委員玉玲：要把中央主管機關納入。"],["林署長華慶：但是地方政府絕對是第一線要處理的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，可是我們中央有專業的技術人員啊！"],["林署長華慶：大家都要有專業，地方也要有專業。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要有一貫性，從中央到地方到業主。"],["林署長華慶：對，我們一起成長。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，再把它編列進去，好不好？謝謝。"],["林署長華慶：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.97596875,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.396593750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.52284375,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.50909375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.67784375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.31909375,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":47.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.50409375,"end":50.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.02471875,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.88909375,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.13721875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.14784375,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.67784375000001,"end":105.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.60471875,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.08534375,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.02596875,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.44284375000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.49096875,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.27971875,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.72596875000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.80096875,"end":151.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.27346875,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.81284375,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.88846875000002,"end":170.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.48721875,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.01846875,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.30534375000002,"end":161.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.79346875000002,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.78909375,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.80596875,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.83971875,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.06659375,"end":208.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.06596875000002,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.12471875,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.38909375,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.16284375,"end":213.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.17471875,"end":215.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.46159375000002,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.08096875,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.42221875,"end":235.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.72909375,"end":232.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.15471875000003,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.11659375000002,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.98971875,"end":237.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.00659375,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.02346875,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.07409375,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.09096875,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.25096875000003,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.79096875000002,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.59909375,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.75096875000003,"end":256.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.66596875,"end":258.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.96096875,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.91409375,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.93096875000003,"end":262.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.96471875000003,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.55096875000004,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.82034375,"end":269.8284687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11屆第12會期經濟委員會第11�"},{"start":20.435,"end":33.038,"text":"條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12屆第13條之一及第14條之一及第14條之一及第16條之一及第17條之一及第18條之一及第18條之一及第19條之一及第20條之一及第21條之一及第21條之一及第22條之一及第23條之一及第24條之一及第26條之一及第27條之一及第28條之一及第29條之一及第30條之一及第30條之一及第41條之一及第41條之一及第42條之一及第42條之一及第45條之一及第46條之一及第47條之一及第47條之一及第48條之一及第49條之一及第49條之一及第50條之一"},{"start":50.763,"end":66.341,"text":"我跟委員說明就是行政院針對整個這次地震花蓮的話我們在跨部會第一時間就去處理那各部會本身針對各部會所看到的這些災損的部分那以我們農業部來講針對漁業的部分就是我們的定制網"},{"start":67.362,"end":74.028,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":94.386,"end":95.587,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":106.51,"end":112.272,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜及第十四條條文修正草案案件事宜及第十四條條文修正草案案件事宜及第十四條條文修正草案案件事宜及第十四條條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":136.801,"end":141.187,"text":"對 那尤其是這次的情況之下我們是不是可以做到一個展延免息的部分"},{"start":142.799,"end":145.701,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文"},{"start":169.893,"end":182.341,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":197.15,"end":222.179,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":223.456,"end":225.757,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":237.308,"end":240.389,"text":"有爭議什麼條文不能送進來的?你們從者你們討論研究演繹已經這麼久了"},{"start":256.736,"end":257.877,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":279.52,"end":286.044,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":297.051,"end":314.118,"text":"主委部長剛剛的說法是說我們會改良室改良室我們不曉得改良室是什麼樣的情況那因為我們在另外21條的部分裡面說如果有特殊緊急狀況危害公共安全或者民眾的生命的時候我們可以適用19條的第1項到第6項對不對"},{"start":318.425,"end":343.633,"text":"對是所以我們應該就把設限進去那尤其是第十九條的第一項到第六項我只看到你們回應的是這個126這這個三項是不可以使用的但是主委最讓我們擔心的就是三四五項他這個毒物還有炸藥還有其他特殊的這個獵捕的工具"},{"start":345.117,"end":355.031,"text":"主委、本部長我想請問就是說為什麼需要炸藥需要毒物這個你們沒有去回應你們還繼續要使用"},{"start":357.334,"end":375.368,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是關於漁業或是電的部分。因為在陸域上面來講,基本上不會用炸藥去捕獵動物。那在魚的話,捕魚的時候有時候會有一些炸藥的部分,再可不可以說明一下?"},{"start":378.103,"end":397.112,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":406.605,"end":429.821,"text":"這個部分可能我們就是會再跟這個漁業組這邊會上所以我希望你回應這個炸藥跟毒物的部分好不好對漁具與法有一定的規範用炸魚這種方式本來就是不允許的所以你們現在回應我是漁業嘛那這個野生動物法這個還可以適用嗎我們署長所提到的就是我們保留炸藥跟"},{"start":431.331,"end":452.026,"text":"相關的是因為因應緊急的狀況的時候我們必須要去處理那如果說所以因應緊急狀況的話在19條裡面就有了對不對所以你們必須要去回應嘛是好不好我們在立法聰明裡面做一個訊明謝謝主席給我最後一分鐘我要請問的就是說現在我們講的這個野生動物的這個37條跟50條裡面我們的"},{"start":458.351,"end":471.359,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項的業主要回報給地方政府,那地方政府他們沒有專業的經驗跟我們的物資還有資源去做這個維補的工作,那是不是應該我們中央主管機關尤其是農業署也應該是為這個相關的主管機關一起來做這個維補的工作"},{"start":477.222,"end":484.447,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條"}]}},{"id":"151030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b3efb07af96dc069be63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6b0d6301640ef21585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:49:08 - 09:57:53","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":525,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:57:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:49:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時49分）請部長。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早安。3月4號本席質詢完之後，看起來進口蛋的銷毀有加速，對不對？我看最新資料已經銷毀了三千多萬顆，現在還有2,443。"],["陳代理部長駿季：到昨天為止，大概已經銷毀了四千四百多，剩下大概將近一千。"],["張委員啓楷：又有進度了？好，儘快。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會儘快。"],["張委員啓楷：你越快，人民納稅錢就省越多。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？不過我請教一下，我看這個數據怪怪的，你給我的資料顯示，進口雞蛋的堆肥化再利用，你要補助3,350萬，對不對？那還有一筆錢是之前一直沒有出現的，你說是運輸的費用要用掉980萬？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是因為農業部去年沒有完成，本來是說去年底嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以已經多花了4,330萬，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是這樣子，這個是我們把雞蛋當作堆肥需要一些成本，這要三千多萬，另外從倉儲、倉庫的地點運到堆肥場要九百多萬，所以它不是額外增加的，是這些過期雞蛋要去做堆肥的一個必要成本。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道你的意思，就是你要把它銷毀本來就會用到這筆錢，目前看起來有一筆錢在你之前給我資料的時候，你不是隱瞞，而是漏掉，是不是？媒體說多一筆八千萬的倉儲費用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，八千萬的倉儲費用是去年全年度，我們從2月進口以後，每一批進口蛋放到倉庫，然後從倉庫調度到洗選場，這是所有的、整年度的倉儲費用，不是報廢雞蛋的倉儲費用，這沒有辦法拆開的。"],["張委員啓楷：我看你昨天在記者會上說這是今年的費用，我們把它釐清，你剛剛講的是從去年開始進來以後？"],["陳代理部長駿季：去年開始進來以後的雞蛋，因為它不同批進來，一億五千多萬顆進來後都會放在倉庫，然後再調度到洗選場，整年度下來的倉儲費用……"],["張委員啓楷：所以是從去年的2月到目前為止，還是到去年底？"],["陳代理部長駿季：到去年底。"],["張委員啓楷：到去年底？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在又漏了一筆，對不對？那今年因為銷毀的速度……"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為今年還沒有，就是今年的部分因為牽涉到整個的，一般我們在算經費的時候都是用年度來算，今年因為還有一些庫存蛋還沒有賣完，然後還有一些報廢要去堆肥的也還沒有處理完，所以這個部分的經費是還沒有統計實際的經費。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，我們要很清楚地跟民眾講，是從去年的2月份一直到去年年底用了8,400萬的倉儲費用，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，大概8,400萬。"],["張委員啓楷：後來有流標，所以今年的這個速度，今年又有新的倉儲費用，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：找時間你把今年的算出來給我，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：今年的可能沒有辦法馬上。"],["張委員啓楷：這個要跟民眾講，因為這個延誤，事實上我們人民納稅錢又增加一部分了，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，去年有一部分是當作緊急，是當我們國內需要蛋品時的一個庫存，所以那個庫存也是當作糧食安全儲備的一個必要成本，因為它跟報廢的在同一個倉儲系統裡面沒有辦法去拆開來，所以沒有辦法認定今年度的倉儲費用就是浪費的，因為它要保存一些庫存的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！部長，你們本來計畫是去年底就要完成銷毀嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：但後來流標，那今年這個當然是多出來的啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個是多出來……"],["張委員啓楷：我要肯定你最近有加速，可是你現在不能夠去辯解說因為你延誤了而多花了這個費用，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：把它算出來，從今年的元旦到最後銷毀是花了多少倉儲的錢，這個要給本席，好不好？也要跟民眾講。"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果能夠拆得出來，我會儘量把它拆出來，我會跟畜產會說，因為是畜產會提供資料給我。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦！是新的，部長，這是新的啊！你說的8,400萬是舊的，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：到去年底嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：這是新的，這不用拆啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：這是你們今年新的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為它還有一些庫存的，就是沒有過期放庫存的，在同一個倉庫裡面要拆出過期的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你整理一下，反正要跟民眾說……"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK，我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：這是民脂民膏，一定要清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我再讓你回一個數目字，你去年底開記者會，你說整個銷毀過程要花多少錢？2億5，對不對？目前我看到你給我的，4,300萬再加這八千多萬，也才一億多啊！另外的錢在哪裡？沒有隱瞞吧！銷毀這個雞蛋到底要用到多少錢？2億5嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想大的部分，因為依畜產會提供的資料跟我所瞭解的，政府在補貼的時候是用價差補貼，就是雞蛋買進來以後，雞蛋也會賣出去嘛！賣出去的價差，價差是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：部長抱歉，因為時間有限，我整理一下啦！所以現在有幾個費用要跟民眾講清楚，因為你們流標，所以今年多的倉儲費用、冷凍費用要跟民眾講清楚，這是第一個。第二個，是不是真的要用到2億5，這個也要清楚。另外我再跟你說一個重點，你在記者會講說農業部補助了4,100萬的倉儲費用，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你另外還說是中央畜產會的，所以不算你們的，我們看中央畜產會的預算，我看112年預算書是89.6%啊！差不多90%都是你們補助的錢啊！所以將近八千多萬也是人民的納稅錢啊！是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，它的整個資金，因為當初畜產會成立的時候，是由其他不同單位去共同捐的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！我知道、我知道，部長很專業我知道，問題是從預算書看起來，它的錢就是90%都是農業部嘛！不然我們算一下，現在最重要的，我們看一下這張圖，這5.6億的「慘蛋教訓」我們到底學到什麼？本席去算了一下，從進口進來的時候，巴西蛋1顆平均大概是8塊錢，後來壞掉的、過期的、沒有用的，人民損失的納稅錢就有4億3,548萬，另外加上我們剛剛一直在談的，銷毀費用是三千三百多萬，加上運輸的九百多萬，再加上你剛剛講的8,400萬，你看，一個錯誤的政策要5億6,278萬，多慘痛的一個經驗！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不過我要跟委員說明……"],["張委員啓楷：從裡面得到什麼教訓？抱歉部長，我講一下，我知道你們可能當初也有其好意啦！可是你看導致了什麼結果，農業部長已經下臺，對不對？中央畜產會主委也下臺了，我現在不是要追究你的責任，我是說你至少要做兩件事情，第一個是速度加快，把這個錢省更多，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後要好好地想一想在這個裡面到底得到什麼教訓，例如禽舍跟雞舍的整個改良，我去看你們的補助標準，最多大概1,000萬嘛！你當初如果不是用進口雞蛋，而是多去改良一下、多去改善禽舍的補助，就會有好幾百家可以得到你們的幫助耶！讓蛋的生產就更穩定，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們當初……"],["張委員啓楷：禽舍的水準會更高。"],["陳代理部長駿季：進口雞蛋跟禽舍改良是同步化，所以我們國內雞蛋的復養率也非常快。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我最後問一個東西，我上次質詢的時候有特別強調要讓所有的民眾可以安心，所以銷毀的過程一定要公開透明，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有，絕對有第三方，包括縣市政府還有相關的，我們自己的政風也有參加……"],["張委員啓楷：所以這個……"],["陳代理部長駿季：而且我們每一批都有錄影。"],["張委員啓楷：都有錄影嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，都有錄影。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，到時候要讓民眾安心……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們絕對……"],["張委員啓楷：也要適度地讓民眾可以看得到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，那時候我承諾說從出倉以後到堆肥場一定有第三方去監督，而且會有錄影，我們都有做到。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以部長，第一個是要儘快，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：再加速，人民的納稅錢一定要省下來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概4月下旬就會結束。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個是過程要公開透明，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：下個禮拜我們會安排再去看看你們現在有多少東西在冷凍倉儲裡面，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請呂玉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案件 兩月五點,對不對?那目前我看到你給我的四千三百萬再加這八千多也才一億多啊。你另外的錢在哪裡?沒有隱瞞齁?你到底要用到這個銷毀這個雞蛋到底要用到多少錢?你要義無嗎?我想大的齁因為區長會提供的資料跟我所了解的齁就是"},{"start":322.81,"end":324.171,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":353.431,"end":359.94,"text":"農業部補助了四千一百萬的這個倉儲費用,對不對?是。你另外說是中央市場會,雖然沒勝利,中央市場會在看他的醫生。中央市場會我看這個預算書一百十二年,"},{"start":364.58,"end":388.725,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第九十八條之一及第八十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八條之一及第九十八"},{"start":392.649,"end":413.334,"text":"這五點六億的這個蛋的這個產蛋的教訓我們到底學到什麼本期去算了一下從進口進來的時候巴西蛋一顆平均大概八點八塊錢你看買蛋後來壞掉了過期了沒有用了人民損失納稅錢就四億三千五百四十八萬了另外加上我們剛剛一直在談的這個"},{"start":415.896,"end":427.523,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":441.098,"end":467.54,"text":"主委也下台了我現在不是要追你責任我說你至少做兩件事情第一個速度加快把這個錢省更多好不好這是一個然後第一個要好好想一想這個裡面到底得到什麼一個教訓例如說你琴瑟跟那個基瑟的這個整個改良我去看你們這個補助標準最多大概一千萬嘛你當初如果不是用進口雞蛋多去改良一下多去改善我們這個琴瑟琴瑟的這個補助有好幾百家可以得到你的幫助欸"},{"start":468.348,"end":479.538,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":480.397,"end":502.845,"text":"三條之一及第四十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":504.105,"end":523.553,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"}]}},{"id":"151029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b038036986b672e4ce63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6fd2c8cf5242c617a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:41:01 - 09:49:04","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":483,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:49:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:41:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時41分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，進入我們今天的條文詢答之前，我還是想要先請教幾個時事題，跟地方有比較相關的，部長大概很清楚，最近因為氣候異常，這幾年其實對於農民來講都是非常辛苦的，我大概整理一下，全臺灣從2月份開始，從恆春、南投、嘉義一直到臺南，荔枝、龍眼都不開花，所以你們都已經陸陸續續去勘災了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：這是昨天、前天在高雄，高雄市農業局到這兩天才啟動勘災機制，不是因為我們高雄農業局怠慢，而是高雄的農民很厲害，當中南部尤其屏東、臺南、嘉義、南投的荔枝不開花的時候，我們高雄的荔枝開花有七成。結果因為這幾天的日夜溫差大，再加上颳南風，現在我們荔枝的著果率只剩下不到三成，所以昨天開始，我們就進行了勘災的動作，包括龍眼，甚至在山區的那瑪夏，青梅、水蜜桃都大量的減產。","全球環境劇烈變遷，部長，我要請教您，全臺灣中南部其他各區的荔枝不開花都能夠得到災損補助，高雄這一次的災損補助是不是也能夠達標？如果達標的話，你們能不能承諾在最短的時間內核撥災損的經費呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我可能要澄清一下關於高雄的部分，因為不同地區本身開花時間的溫度，因為荔枝本身需要一些涼溫，所以高雄比較特殊一點，所以它有比較慢，而不是說公所或是我們同仁怠慢。"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們昨天去看了，而且已經達到相關災損的標準了，所以我們會儘快在今天或明天公告。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果你們今天公告的話，我希望也能夠加速補助的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們也會來協助後續的這些勘查。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。另外，過去我們在推動作物保險，我們剛剛講到荔枝，112年的時候投保件數是3件，113年投保的件數只有6件，高雄的荔枝種植的面積有三千多公頃，部長，這幾年你們可能不太推作物保險，有沒有可能趁這樣子，讓更多的農民瞭解氣候劇烈變遷時投保作物保險的重要性？我覺得應該要再來加強宣導，我現在拿到了這一張，這一張宣傳單是109年高雄市政府的，可是我後來找不到這幾年的，因為大家都不宣導了。","部長，我今天也不要求你，我覺得你們應該要開始啟動作物保險的宣導工作，不管是否為我們現有的作物保險，我覺得應該要開始讓農民更清楚地知道政府在推動這一塊，好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，我們的確在檢討我們的保險為什麼部分品項的比例非常低，有一部分可能是因為農民不瞭解，有一部分可能是保單的設計上出了某一些問題，所以我們會針對保單的設計方面……"],["邱委員議瑩：保單的設計跟農民的理解、宣傳，我覺得要……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個部分我想我們會加強，我們會去處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：要齊頭並進，要一起去加強。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["邱委員議瑩：另外是前一陣子關於寶林茶室的中毒案，對於客家的米製品其實受傷慘重，大家都知道要來美濃吃粄條，現在美濃的粄條街完全沒有人，我是不是能夠要求農業部農糧署對於臺灣的米製品，尤其是我們客家地區這些粄條等等的米製品來做相關的推廣計畫，尤其是國產的米品，甚至現在所謂的米酵菌酸，這個英文名字其實已經把它改名了，完全按照它原文的發音。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，邦克列酸。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得我們也應該要在我們的農村地區來做相關的說明，甚至責成農糧署即刻進行國產米的推廣活動。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝委員，整個米製品包括粄條、包括其他的米製品，我想這樣一個積極的促銷跟推廣在這個時間點是必要的，所以我們一定會支持，第二個，也會把邦克列酸的部分再做宣導，這也是我們建議的。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，我覺得這件事情還是非常重要，我覺得跟農產相關的，我想農業部應該要站在第一線為我們的農民發聲。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來要討論到我們今天的法條，部長您剛花了很多時間在解釋所謂的改良式獵具、山豬吊、獸鋏，不過你剛剛有一點口誤，你說你們現在在推改良式獸鋏，應該不叫改良式獸鋏，而是改良式獵具。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以獸鋏是完全禁用，但是改良式獵具你們現在的推廣成效到什麼程度？我知道去年6月的時候，阿里山有一隻臺灣黑熊因為誤觸了這個，還好牠是踩到了改良式獵具，所以牠沒有受傷，對於原住民同胞他們在狩獵行為上面或者是在山裡，他們對於改良式獵具的接受程度跟你們推廣宣傳的力道，其成效怎麼樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，針對改良式獵具本身，如果是知道的人，他們其實滿高興使用的，到目前為止，我們在原住民地區已經換發了三千七百多個了，因為今年度一直在累積……"],["邱委員議瑩：在原住民地區已經換三千七百多個改良式獵具？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們去年度也大概宣導250場，在不同的部落、不同山邊的地區，所以我相信持續的宣導，讓更多人瞭解這些改良式獵具，我相信就能夠很快引導他們把原來山豬吊的部分做一些調整。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實在動保法裡面，我們已經完全禁止獸鋏，甚至連它的製造、販賣都是被禁止的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以照理講，在山裡面他應該是買不到原始的這一種獸鋏了，因為我們已經禁止它的製造、販售，所以使用獸鋏基本上已經是不合法的，現在我們的野保法如果把它修法改掉，我覺得改良式獵具的宣傳跟推廣，農業部或者是林業署應該要再加強力道、加強的去做宣傳，讓更多的不管是原住民或者是更多的這些族人或者是我們在田裡面，對於野生動物的保護上面，我覺得我們應該要盡更多的心力。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會的，我們一定會盡全力針對原住民部落本身來做宣導。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員。下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案件,包括龍眼、納瑪夏、青梅、水蜜桃等。"},{"start":102.187,"end":122.745,"text":"這個全球的環境劇烈變遷部長我要請教您就是那全台灣中南部其他各區的荔枝不開花都能夠得到了這個災損的補助高雄這一次的災損補助是不是也能夠達標那如果達標的話你們能不能承諾在最短的時間內將災損的經費來合撥呢"},{"start":127.37,"end":152.186,"text":"我跟委員說明就是高雄的部分我可能要呈現澄清一下因為不同地區本身在開發時間的那個溫度因為荔枝本身需要一些涼溫所以高雄它比較特殊一點所以它有比較慢而不是說公所或是我們同仁在慢我知道我知道那我們昨天去看了而且已經達到相關的一個災損的一個標準了是所以我們會盡快的就在今天或明天就會去公告"},{"start":152.406,"end":167.835,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":170.536,"end":191.865,"text":"三）113年投保件數只有六件,高雄荔枝種植面積有三千多公頃,不然這幾年你們可能沒什麼在推測作物保險,有沒有可能趁著這樣子讓更多的農民其實了解這氣候劇烈變遷的時候,其實投保作物保險的重要性?"},{"start":192.665,"end":207.158,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":208.059,"end":222.651,"text":"我今天也不要求你我覺得你們應該要開始啟動這樣的作物保險的宣導的工作不管你是我們現有的作物保險我覺得應該要開始要讓農民有更清楚的知道政府是在推動這一塊"},{"start":224.687,"end":249.962,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":250.842,"end":274.996,"text":"前一陣子這個寶林茶室的這個中毒案對於客家的米製品其實受傷慘重大家都知道要來美濃吃板條現在美濃的板條街是完全沒有人我是不是能夠要求農委會、農糧署能夠來對於台灣的米製品尤其是我們客家地區的這些板條等等的米製品"},{"start":275.896,"end":278.179,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":293.117,"end":309.393,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":309.673,"end":333.278,"text":"整個的米製品的包括板條包括其他的米製品我想這樣的一個積極的促銷跟推廣是必要的啦在這個時間點所以我們一定會支持那第二個就是也會把那個邦克列酸的部分其實也會再做宣導他也是我們建議的是是是所以我覺得這件事情還是非常重要我覺得跟這個農產有相關的我想農業部應該要站在第一線來為我們的農民發聲"},{"start":334.898,"end":351.438,"text":"好那接下來要討論到我們今天的這個法條齁部長您剛剛花了很多時間在解釋所謂的改良式列具山豬釣啦獸甲齁不過你剛剛有一點口誤你說你們現在在推改良式獸甲應該不叫改良式獸甲是改良式列具嘛齁"},{"start":351.878,"end":366.45,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":381.121,"end":385.703,"text":"推廣的宣傳的力道成效怎麼樣?"},{"start":402.128,"end":417.474,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十"},{"start":422.475,"end":424.216,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":445.703,"end":459.586,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":471.508,"end":472.37,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件。"}]}},{"id":"151028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200beec142da249f94e7e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a654de318ebac86ee55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:32:56 - 09:40:56","影片長度":"00:08:00","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":480,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:40:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:32:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":100,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時32分）有請主委。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：今天要跟你繼續討論的是建立完善的犬貓公益血庫機制，現在不統合，未來只會亂，質詢的題目：第一個，追蹤動物血庫捐血政策及運作機制。第二個，建立國內捐血犬貓示範場域平臺，本席會再說清楚。第三個會有具體建議。我在2月27日的總質詢中，有請農業部在3個月內研擬建立犬貓公益血庫規劃方案含逐年編列預算，以建立一套完善的動物捐血政策和運作機制，目前全臺僅有國立屏東科技大學所提供的犬貓捐輸血液服務是唯一完整管理機制的機構，也是唯一合法提供捐輸血液的機構，其產量僅占現在市場捐輸血液的5%，而這5%是唯一合法的。","本席在總質詢當中提到捐血規劃有三個特色，就是強調文明、落實道德及鼓勵公益。強調文明是犬貓公益血庫機制，訂定公益血庫捐血規範，建構可行服務生態。第二階段是學研合作研發機制，由屏東科技大學為起點，逐年建立北中南示範血庫平臺法人軟體平臺技術支援，第一階段和第二階段是可以合一的。為什麼我特別指定屏東科技大學，其實農委會早就有做，這要感謝105年農委會林聰賢主委，以及當時的防檢局施泰華副局長，雖然施副局長現在已經不在人世間，但是我一定要感謝他，也因為他大力支持動物捐血機制，給屏東科技大學3年計畫之後，屏科大自己獨立站起來了，現在是唯一能夠比照國外，尤其是把美國的機制放到國內，因為國人都比較喜歡養小犬這種小型規模的動寵物，所以也符合國內的機制，去建立8年的血庫。","但是我非常失望，你們確實在1個月後召開建置國內寵物公益血庫研商會議，你們怎麼做呢？來看左邊你們的會議結論決議一、二、三，重點就在決議三「各校建置犬貓血庫模式、推行方式及所需經費等具差異性，宜逐步完善各校示範血庫，再透過經驗交流及資源共享……」這句話的意思就是你們在自打嘴巴，完全百分百否認你們自己對屏科大補助經費的成果，他們花了七、八年的時間，你們現在只做什麼事？對有捐輸業務的學校補助冰箱，就只補助冰箱，對於目前現況並無其他的配套，或是積極建置屬於政府本身的犬貓捐輸機制。","上次會議討論的決議，並不是本席在總質詢當中所建議的設立犬貓血庫管理總部與捐輸血液推廣平臺，你們只是完善學校的示範硬體，這樣根本無法建立一個完善的犬貓公益血庫計畫，也根本無法有效地向民眾推廣正確的犬貓捐輸血液機制。重點是什麼？犬貓不會自己來捐血，所以這個總部還負有跟飼主推廣之責，什麼叫作總部？什麼叫作平臺？你們還委託屏科大做了報告，我就引用你們補助的報告來看什麼叫作總部，你們現在的第一步是從環境建構建立標準程序、符合規範及合適場地與軟硬體，所以不是所有的大學或學研都可以做，我知道其中有一個大學是跟非法的養殖場在合作，結果你們讓它就地合法。","再來，這個總部要做什麼？你們現在要做工作分組，含採血、檢驗、管理、供應、會計、企劃、推廣、資訊及稽核；重點是營運服務，現在血液血庫資訊平臺有總部、有平臺，在這當中的數據資料就要建立起來，建立犬貓血品數位資料庫，串聯各捐血中心、合作醫院等；招募和推廣也在營運服務當中，統籌捐血犬貓招募活動，並進行教育推廣和企業合作；遠程目標是正式通過ISO/TAF認證，成立財團法人動物血液基金會。","什麼叫作平臺？這個也來自於你們補助的報告，主管機關是防檢署和動保司，捐血的部分就是剛才本席提出來的總部，在犬貓血庫服務平臺和捐血中心下面的平臺，目前已經成立的是屏東科技大學，它有獸醫教學醫院、獸醫輸血醫學中心，以及現在你們要建置的各獸醫相關大學的醫院，包括所有的捐血、保存、供應、使用，這是捐血的部分，要到這邊來捐。至於受血的部分，全國各地要到那裡輸血？全國各地經教育訓練合格的合作動物醫院，這要跟誰合作？跟全國獸醫師公會聯合會、各縣市獸醫師公會，也就是在這個平臺開始建立之後，就要教導民眾與合格的獸醫師醫院，現在要捐輸血一律都到這個總部和平臺，才能良幣驅逐劣幣。而且重點是在這個合作推廣中，也給予飼主捐輸血液的正確管道，勿再聽信其他不正當來源的訊息，請問部長怎麼看？"],["陳代理部長駿季：非常謝謝委員，針對血庫的總部和平臺系統，基本上我非常認同這樣的系統，可是在捐血的部分，我們有兩個重點要考慮，第一個重點就是這些供血犬貓的福利，我們要保障。第二個，血品也要保障，像屏東大學本身現在已經有這樣的機制，接下來就是這個總部與平臺之間的串接，其實我們在跟獸醫師公會開會的時候，有討論到非常多的細節。"],["林委員岱樺：你認同啊！所以結論一、二講的就是你現在講的，但是你的作法是什麼？有沒有照著做？沒有！部長，時間有限，回去檢討，以上，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：請邱委員議瑩質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132601_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.45221875,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.177843750000001,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.74909375,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":76.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.99784375,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.20846875000001,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.49471875,"end":116.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.90721875000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.88846875000002,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.44846875000002,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.46534375000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.19096875000002,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.89909375000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.68784375,"end":172.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.94909375,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.69096875000002,"end":215.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.16596875000002,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.87346875,"end":257.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.49284375,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.90596875,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.91784375000003,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.41096875,"end":275.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.53221875,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.03784375000004,"end":289.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.23034375000003,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.19534375,"end":302.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.43096875000003,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.54221875,"end":326.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.57909375,"end":341.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.27284375000005,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.28471875,"end":349.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.01846875,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.26221875000005,"end":358.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.01284375,"end":385.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.75971875000005,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.46346875,"end":417.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.10909375,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.81596875,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.11534375,"end":435.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.13159375000004,"end":466.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.74721875,"end":472.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.59846875000005,"end":472.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.95284375000006,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.96971875,"end":473.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.35784375000003,"end":476.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.19284375,"end":476.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.43284375,"end":479.70284375000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.428,"end":28.159,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":29.6,"end":52.552,"text":"第三個會有具體的建議。」好,在2月27號總諮詢之後請農業部在3個月內嚴厲建立犬貓公益血庫規劃方案含逐年編列的預算來建立一套完善的動物捐血政策跟運作機制目前全台僅有國立屏東科技大學所提供的犬貓捐輸血液服務是唯一"},{"start":53.352,"end":76.657,"text":"完整管理機制的機構也是唯一合法提供捐輸血液的這樣的一個機構而它的產量就是整個現在市場的捐輸血液的5%而這5%是唯一合法的那本席在這個總質詢當中提到希望這樣的一個捐血的一個規劃有三個"},{"start":79.278,"end":97.969,"text":"特赦強調文明、落實道德以及鼓勵公益,那這個強調文明是在犬貓公益學庫的機制定定公益學庫遵學的規範建構可行的服務生態。第二階段是學研合作的研發機制由屏東科技大學為起點"},{"start":98.849,"end":115.15,"text":"逐年建立北中南示範雪庫平臺法人的軟體平臺技術支援,這個第一個階段跟第二階段是可以合一的。那為什麼我特別指定屏東科技大學,其實農委會早就有做,只要感謝在105年"},{"start":117.352,"end":135.569,"text":"這個農委會的主委是林聰賢林主委以及當時的防檢局施泰華施副局長雖然施副局長現在已經不在人世間但是我一定要感謝他也因為他大力支持這樣動物的捐血機制給屏東科技大學三年的計畫"},{"start":136.63,"end":165.92,"text":"之後平克大他自己獨立站起來現在能夠唯一可以跟國外尤其他是以整個美國的機制來放到我們國內而且他還因為我們國人都是喜歡養小犬比較小型規模的動寵物所以我們也符合國內的一個機制去建立了這建立8年的一個雪庫好那這個概念呢"},{"start":167.998,"end":197.058,"text":"但是呢我非常的失望你們確實在一個月後啊召開了這個建設國內寵物公益選庫的研商會議你們什麼做呢來看左邊你們的會議結論決議一二三重點就在那個三各校建制犬貓選庫模式推行方式及所需經費本據差異性以逐步完善各校示範選庫再透過經驗交流及經驗這個資源分享這句話的意思啊"},{"start":197.538,"end":213.446,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":216.227,"end":228.079,"text":"就補助冰箱,所以對於目前現況並無其他的配套,而且或是積極建設屬於政府自己本身的犬貓捐輸機制。而上次的會議討論的決議並不是本期在總實行當中所建議設立的犬貓血庫管理總部"},{"start":236.947,"end":263.985,"text":"與捐輸血液的推廣平臺,而你們只是能完善學校的示範硬體,這樣根本無法建立一個完善的犬貓工藝血庫的計畫,也根本無法有效地向民眾推廣正確的犬貓捐輸血液的機制。」重點是什麼?犬貓不會自己來捐血啊!所以你這個總部還富有推廣,跟事主推廣啊!"},{"start":265.52,"end":267.202,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":290.302,"end":297.069,"text":"我都知道其中有一個大學是跟非法的養殖場在合作的你們讓他就地合法"},{"start":298.591,"end":304.914,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具《遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案》案。三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具《遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案》案。三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具《遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":326.684,"end":347.743,"text":"在招募跟推廣也是你的營運服務當中統籌捐血犬貓的招募活動並進行教育推廣跟企業合作,原則來講就正式的通過ISO跟TAF的認證成立財團法人動物血液基金會。好,什麼叫做平台?這個也是你們補助的一個報告。"},{"start":350.049,"end":351.429,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文"},{"start":373.695,"end":384.099,"text":"以及現在你們要建置的各受益相關大學的這個醫院包括所有的捐血保存供應使用這個是捐血的部分要到這邊來捐然後呢受血的部分呢各全國各地我要到哪裡啊來來輸血啊"},{"start":391.641,"end":403.903,"text":"全國各地經教育訓練合格的合作動物醫院。這要跟誰合作?跟我們全國獸醫師公會聯合會跟各縣市的獸醫師公會也就是說這個平台建立開始之後我現在就教導民眾跟合格的獸醫師醫院你們現在要捐輸血一律都到這個平台來總部跟平台你才能量幣缺足劣幣啊"},{"start":418.146,"end":435.275,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":436.292,"end":461.918,"text":"所謂的總部跟平台的這個系統那基本上我非常認同這樣的一個系統可是在考慮到捐血的部分我們有兩個重點要考慮第一個重點就是這些公學犬貓的福利我們要保障然後第二個就是血品也要保障所以說像屏東大學它本身它現在已經有這樣的一個機制那接下來就是這個總部跟這個平台之間的串接那其實我們在獸醫師公會在開會的時候其實有討論到非常多的這些細節"},{"start":465.799,"end":466.259,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b9cee92d0b056278a039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6e901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:23:12 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and Mathematics這幾項，十年來我們的STEM，我們認為是主管我們科技發展的部分，十年來人數少了10萬。我們再往下看，還有外國專業人員可以聘僱的，你看從106年到現在，逐年地降低，這是我們認為人才、攬才非常重要。剛才提到人才，更不要說我在當委員的時候，我們提出的一個LIFT計畫，希望能夠把海外人員做一個橋接，這一項我想副主委應該非常地清楚，結果我們4年花了四億多，那時候我們就質疑這樣的有效性，只留下了97個人。所以這一連串看下來，副主委，你真的還是覺得我們的人才、攬才、育才達到當初所認為的規劃方向嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：還不夠、還不夠，而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的，當然有很多原因，這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善臺灣工作的環境，以往我們請人家回來，如果臺灣的整個工作環境，尤其是科技人才……"],["柯委員志恩：這些大家都會知道，但是你們到底做了什麼？因為我們的薪資、各方面跟別人都不太能夠比。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：報告委員，所以我們從去年開始、還有從今年開始，去年事實上就開始有1,000個博士班學生，如果我們博士班學生的薪水遠比外面做碩士的產業來得低很多，當然就沒有辦法留，所以是今年……"],["柯委員志恩：好，博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域？你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：都有，當然我們也不能偏廢人文，人文也非常重要。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，我們知道嘛，國科會國際的發展，我們今天就focus在科技發展上，你看我們整體計畫當中，你說博士班的培育，R&D當然是非常地重要啊！但是你看我們基礎研究的能量，日本大概完全占整體研發經費的12%，包括1,000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費，日本12.6%，我們臺灣7.45%，只比中國大陸多一點點而已，跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法相比，十年前還有9.8%，現在只有七點多，你告訴我你投入這麼多，這個數據會說話，你放在基礎研究上面，基礎研究是一切的根本，副主委是不是這個樣子？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我非常謝謝委員提出這一點，我是在到國科會之前，曾經就寫過，那時候大概是7.0%左右，其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低。"],["柯委員志恩：是！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對，這個就必須要靠各個委員跟大家的幫忙。"],["柯委員志恩：你們連開個會，各自的主管、教育部什麼都不跟你們開，你們主委今天也不來這個地方，你都可以看出問題所在，你都已經來到公部門，從學界來到公部門，你都已經看出問題所在，可是還是沒有辦法……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身，在整體計畫的政府部門……"],["柯委員志恩：對！你們的主委還特別提到說，除了這個東西沒有辦法，我們希望民間，他真的下任之後到民間，他今天沒有來，不然我很想問問他如何讓民間也能投注在我們所謂的基礎研究？你可以看得出來有多少投入到民間的基礎研究，到目前為止不到一成，所以你們都知道問題所在，你們都已在這個位置上面，但是你都提不出最好的一個政策，這是我覺得非常可惜的地方，更何況我們現在每個人都說AI、AI，副主委你來自臺大、你來自一個高等的學府，我現在問你，臺灣未來都要往AI走，然後我們的各大學只要有個AI，教育部很快就會讓你改名通過，你認為這樣改名有用嗎？不管是改成哪樣的名字，老師都是十幾、二十年的老師，也沒有再去進修，也沒有從產業過來，你改個名字，你覺得這樣就有辦法讓我們臺灣的AI人才因此而倍數成長嗎？你自己從學校來，你認為這樣可以嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：柯委員其實也在學校裡面當過高階主管，如果整個完全只是改名，這個絕對換湯不換藥，沒有辦法達到，真正的AI尤其在這幾年ChatGPT的開始，就是生成式的，它會滲透到各個領域的應用，所以應該是保原來領域的應用非常重要，你把AI當作一個工具去……"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解、我瞭解，我們現在不要談AI，我只問你，對於所有的各大專院校裡面，你從學校背景來說，你覺得改個名字，老師換湯不換藥，也沒有產業經驗，你覺得這樣有辦法育成我們臺灣的AI人才嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們還是必須看實質的部分，因為這是很大的改變。"],["柯委員志恩：很困難，對不對？還有不要說學校，國科會裡面應該主導最大的一個部分，我們來看一下那個時候行政院的生成式AI，你剛剛說國科會有做一個參考指引，你認為有參考價值嗎？你有沒有瞭解過參考指引？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：參考指引是對於未來立法非常重要的參考，目前……"],["柯委員志恩：是，可是我告訴你……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前在各個部會的運用，我們都積極參與，也就是說……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有！你沒有積極參與，就算你有積極參與，但大家給你的回饋非常少，甚至很多民眾看了指引之後，我等一下給你看事實的狀況，只會告訴你這個不行、那個不行，都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的，你看看你們的指引，我把它拿出來看，不得取代什麼、禁止使用、不得向生成的部分、亦不得怎麼樣，這是民眾所反映的，這個不行、那個不行，你就好像前面有個繩索、絆馬索一樣，你沒有告訴我什麼樣才是行，這是我們認為最需要的國科會AI參考指引長成這個樣子。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該是說我們鼓勵使用，但是在某些地方我們必須小心，比如像機密文件，這個不能丟到生成式AI。"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件，光是把一個指引擺出來，你希望每個人能給國科會一些回饋，問題是這樣的一個指引沒辦法給回饋，這就如我剛所提到的很多大專院校，我們臺灣都認為要AI，AI需要投資上百億、上千億才有辦法，目前我們做得非常淺層，可是每個人就是拿AI之名，從大學裡面改換名稱就認為它符合AI的淺層定義，連行政院你們所屬的機關要生成一個AI的參考指引，都只是用這樣的文字敘述，你如何來告訴我們臺灣打從頭到尾可以用到的AI？好不好？所以這個東西對我來說是一個……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我想委員指出非常重要的，就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分，我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！副主委，我個人覺得從學界來到這個地方，不應該只知道理論，當你握有這個權力的時候，其實你可以好好把你覺得很無奈、臺灣應該的發展方向，你們都有你們的mind，但是你們的action，更不要說innovation，什麼AI的內閣！光是這點如果做不到的話，這個AI對我們來說，不管它的定義是什麼，不管它是不是行動跟創新，或是真正的AI人工智慧，對我們來說都只是空談，我只希望能夠表達這個。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：非常謝謝……"],["柯委員志恩：既然在這個地方就把它化為行動，好不好？謝謝。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，把它落地，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委。","我們再來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會 沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考"},{"start":73.331,"end":81.378,"text":"是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?"},{"start":102.368,"end":110.093,"text":"你沒有辦法回答我告訴你出席率高不高主委有沒有親自現身各部會主委有沒有的主管有沒有親自現身其實是代表這個委員會的被重要我可以幫你整理一下最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人"},{"start":117.017,"end":138.828,"text":"每次都沒有出席過,都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係,跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席,更不要說其他的你看看,你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人把你們當作一回事,你會不會覺得很心寒啊"},{"start":140.336,"end":152.426,"text":"我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的一個主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下"},{"start":167.839,"end":178.789,"text":"在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?"},{"start":185.173,"end":185.654,"text":"主委 先看數據再說"},{"start":201.783,"end":201.843,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":219.173,"end":222.097,"text":"與2020年比起的到2023年的倒退再往下來看你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science,Technology,Engineering,Mathematics這幾個"},{"start":234.695,"end":237.839,"text":"10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少的10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當"},{"start":254.577,"end":270.954,"text":"委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來"},{"start":272.935,"end":295.555,"text":"副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境就是說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人"},{"start":295.835,"end":317.777,"text":"這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有"},{"start":318.277,"end":331.074,"text":"當然我們也不能偏會人文 人文也非常重要OK 好 那我們知道嘛 國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中 你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量 你看看"},{"start":333.957,"end":355.592,"text":"日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12 包括你1000個博士都是屬於這樣的經費日本12.6我們台灣7.45只比中國大陸多一點點而已你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法10年前還有9.8你現在只有7點多你告訴我你投入這麼多這個數據會說話你放在基礎研究上面基礎研究是一切的根本"},{"start":356.252,"end":371.429,"text":"主委 是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7.0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低"},{"start":371.829,"end":372.97,"text":"所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身"},{"start":395.327,"end":421.382,"text":"主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已經在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AI AI"},{"start":423.563,"end":423.703,"text":"我想那個"},{"start":453.031,"end":472.948,"text":"科學委員其實也在學校當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對犯貪補犯也沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOP GPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把"},{"start":473.809,"end":474.41,"text":"我們還是繼續看實質的部分"},{"start":490.302,"end":490.682,"text":"在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與沒有"},{"start":517.06,"end":528.423,"text":"你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看到你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得像生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引"},{"start":546.809,"end":552.833,"text":"我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運銷我們台灣都認為AI"},{"start":570.683,"end":570.863,"text":"我講委員．"},{"start":595.907,"end":609.373,"text":"所以這個東西對我來說是一個委員指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不知道只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣"},{"start":624.44,"end":624.48,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b6e124906d218f04c3e511257e4f9dda4f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab1e007f00cecbda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:18:56 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立法的調查權其實是相當的怠惰的"},{"start":57.813,"end":85.14,"text":"那使得在我們在跟官員不管在索取資訊然後甚至在質詢的過程當中其實立法委員比我想像的落實得多得多為什麼因為很簡單以現在我們現行體制我跟行政機關調資料就是看行政機關的良心他要不要給你他我想要的資料看他高興他有一百種方式來去敷衍或是拖延提供給你的資料"},{"start":85.78,"end":108.48,"text":"甚至在備詢台上或是在我們跟官員在質詢網附過的過去你也看到有一些包括甚至最嚴重到說謊的情形都曾經發生過可是回頭一句話請問說謊又怎麼樣請問不提供資料怎麼樣請問今天提供你的虛擬掩飾的資料又怎麼樣答案是真的不能怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":109.841,"end":136.37,"text":"林智傑教授三場公聽會我都有看到您我覺得至少一個共識可以達成你也不贊成官員可以說謊但是我覺得不贊成官員可以說謊可以更進一步就是不讓官員可以說謊就必須有約束的制度不管你要是行政法還是刑事法可以討論但是如果沒有約束官員的制度那我講白了說不說謊就是他良心失業所以如果"},{"start":137.21,"end":154.241,"text":"今天我們反對今天制定約束官員說謊的制度那跟支持官員說謊到底差別在哪裡我不知道所以今天我講的第一件事情就是讓官員不敢也不能說謊你才能夠落實今天立法委員問政最基本的核心職權嘛"},{"start":157.565,"end":174.164,"text":"補充幾個概念有些是把所謂的國會聽證調查跟刑事訴訟來做類比我覺得類比是有些問題但也有些可以參照第一個講被告不自證己罪抱歉被告不自證己罪不等於被告可以在法庭上說謊"},{"start":175.265,"end":203.771,"text":"我會知道 刑事訴訟15 被告如果在法庭上說謊是可以構成法官認為他犯後態度不佳然後虛擬掩飾 變成他的量刑的一個判斷所以被告不是認己罪一樣會在法官的量刑過程當中予以考量你被告面對犯罪後的態度那第二個 被告不是認己罪為什麼不能夠做一個類比 很簡單因為官員跟相關人士在聽證調查來到國會他不是被告啊"},{"start":204.691,"end":223.171,"text":"他是來為公共政策公共利益為立法跟預算相關事項立法權在行使的過程當中來這裡為證言所以怎麼會是被告呢所以這個類比我覺得是不成立的那另外有講到說在刑事訴訟體系之下政人也可以拒絕證言 是的"},{"start":223.812,"end":243.808,"text":"政人是原則上必須證言但例外的符合某些條件是可以拒絕證言但是拒絕證言前的行使不等於政人拒絕願意作證之後可以在所謂的法庭上說謊因為如果這樣的話就構成偽證罪同樣的體系體力是可以在國會聽證調查裡面一樣可以來去實現的那第二個好處就是可以落實國會的憲政職權"},{"start":251.954,"end":268.163,"text":"我剛剛前面講就是說今天土法不足以自行啦憲法規定立法委員有監督政府有立法權有所謂的預算的審查權等等的權利但是如果今天不能夠賦予相當的強制力就會變成"},{"start":269.224,"end":273.308,"text":"陳其邁過去在主張國會聽證調查曾經說過如果沒有我們沒有聽證調查體系我們只要立法委員就是無牙的老虎根本沒辦法貫徹到憲政職權這樣的一個主張現在我們的準行政院副院長鄭玉君也提到過"},{"start":289.585,"end":318.799,"text":"所以換言之今天國會聽證調查以及藐視國會的建立是來彌補過去立法院的一個很大的一個缺漏最後我覺得我們如果能夠今天好好立法事實上可以實現賴清德、鄭麗君、陳其邁、柯建民、林佳龍、蔡同榮等等民進黨的前輩們過去心心念念的國會改革心心念念的聽證調查心心念念的藐視國會罪希望我們這一次不分黨派一起來實現國會改革以上"}]}},{"id":"151025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bf893ee0dcd521801039536c142cb44fdf8ba9b0039caa7a6f330b95b4a3246f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:08:03 - 09:22:57","影片長度":"00:14:54","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":894,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:22:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:08:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":35,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時8分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林副主任委員。"],["主席：有請林副主委。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：委員早安。"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委，我先請教一下，今天主委在哪裡？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：他請假，在行政院院會開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：在行政院院會開會？每個禮拜四都有行政院院會，今天有跟國科會相關的報告嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：因為我是奉令來這邊開會，應該是有要務。"],["洪委員孟楷：每個禮拜四都是行政院院會，行政院院會沒有改變過，都是禮拜四的九點半啊！如果今天沒有說國科會主委一定要在行政院院會報告的話，他有什麼理由請假？今天的主題「國家科技發展策略與布局」那麼重要，是國家科技發展，結果主委放著立法院備詢、報告不來，然後在行政院院會裡面、坐在那裡面。以往院會是誰開比較多，你開比較多，還是他開？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：都是主委，主委親自開。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但是遇到立法院的時候……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：很抱歉，主委也特別交代要跟委員抱歉，其實很抱歉，他在院會裡面有重要的事項……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼事項？重要的事項是什麼？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個他沒有跟我講，基本上這是主委的權責，不過他有特別交代，今天很多的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是國會殿堂，你現在不是接受外面媒體訪問，不是隨便糊弄耶！你講的每一句話都要有憑有據。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我瞭解，所以今天他有特別交代。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的重要事項比國家科技發展策略布局更重要？什麼樣的重要事項比來立法院跟全民報告並備質詢更重要？就是在行政院會，與忠孝東路一路之隔，他寧願坐在行政院裡面，也不願意來立法院，是這樣嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：今天的東西他都完全就是很特別地交代一定要回答……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以以後大家都很特別地交代就可以了，這樣以後都不用部長，也不用新上任的閣揆，以後閣揆也不用出來，也不用備詢，很特別地交代？副主委，我沒有要為難你的意思，你也是被派出來的。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點是本席很好奇，今天召委那麼慎重安排這樣的專案報告，主委可以不來，那是不是主委在躲媒體？還是520第一波的人事名單裡面沒有他，心情不好……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該不是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是現在有風聲，傳說他有可能是未來的數發部長，有沒有聽說？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個完全沒有聽說。"],["洪委員孟楷：之前吳主委在這個委員會也被問到，他那時候說他去意已堅，他520之後就快樂的退休人，在各行各業也可以為國家服務。我想請教，既然你被充分授權，他也特別交代，他有沒有說他520一定還是離開公職？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有？所以你也沒有辦法回答嘛！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，我沒有辦法回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：很多東西你沒有辦法回答。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：他個人的事情，我沒有辦法回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：你認為主委是不是應該還是要來？你在幹嘛？求助，是不是？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我再次致歉，就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：要call out、call in，還是二選一？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：再次致歉，抱歉！主委有特別交代。"],["洪委員孟楷：官員520前不要有這種待退老兵的心態。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：絕對沒有！每天還是非常重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是新國會、新民意，1月13號之後，我們都戰戰兢兢的，因為我們都認為國家科技發展很重要，如果用這種待退老兵的心態，認為反正520到了就拍拍屁股走人，國科會跟我沒關係了，「田無溝、水無流」，這種心態真的要不得！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：是，絕對不會有這樣的心態。"],["洪委員孟楷：國際都很關心這次花蓮地震，為什麼國際很關心？因為臺灣半導體供應很重要，我們真的要再一次感謝台積電及所有的晶圓廠，以及最重要的第一線工程師。地震發生之後，大家都是逃難，但工程師不管休假的、非休假的都趕快趕回去，就是要趕快復工、修復機台。台積電隔天、4月4號就已經講，晶圓廠設備恢復率超過80%，國科會也說竹科、中科、南科都陸續恢復中。但我現在想確定一下，此時此刻是不是所有的科學園區都已經正常營運？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：應該大部分都是……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是應該！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們都有……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在就是說此時此刻，不懂要不要問一下後面的幕僚？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我是說我們隨時都有報，至少在幾天前是80%，現在的狀況我們請他……"],["洪委員孟楷：4月4號媒體就已經報導80%了，現在幾號？4月11號，經過了7天的時間，本席要問的是最新的進度，不是應該，掌握的狀況怎麼樣？來，麻煩。"],["王局長永壯：晶圓廠平時都有在演練……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在只要確認，科學園區是不是都已經恢復正常了？"],["王局長永壯：對，幾乎、大部分儀器，但是我不能……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪個小部分沒有恢復正常？"],["王局長永壯：因為有些還要經過調校，要做幾天穩定度的試驗。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們有沒有掌握？"],["王局長永壯：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有掌握的資料在哪裡？依你剛剛講的狀況，感覺是你沒有掌握。"],["王局長永壯：有，我們平常就有在跟各廠商聯絡，如果有需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在手邊有沒有相關資料？到底現在恢復的程度到90%、80%？還是還剩哪幾家廠商還沒有恢復？有沒有這個資料？"],["王局長永壯：我沒有辦法答復每一個機台是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在不是問你機台，副主委，本席的問題有那麼難回答嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我來回答，我瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：科學園區是不是恢復正常運作？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我完全瞭解，讓我稍微回答一下，這個問題很重要。大家其實都會關心哪些機台、多少%，因為有些牽扯到整個產業內部的調整，比如它剩下兩、三個機台或者是有百分之幾，這個東西它不會直接跟外界講，但是現在國科會本身的重要任務是，當他有任何的需求，包括在基礎建設各方面的需求，我們要完全掌握狀況，目前在這個地方就是infrastructure supportive，完全沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席問的是科學園區是不是完全恢復正常運作？很難懂嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我相信應該還是有少數的機台在調整，因為機台的調整本身要重新reset parameter，但這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委等一下、停一下，正常人問立法院今天是不是有正常開會，你會跟我說有兩個科長今天請假嗎？你會說今天委員會有正常開會就是有正常開會，沒正常開會就沒正常開會！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：正常營運這件事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：今天我問科學園區是不是有正常運作，卻一直跟我說科學園區裡面可能有機台還在修復中，我不瞭解！國科會是在管這種事情的嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：已經正常營運，這個部分我們可以講。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，因為這次0403地震而造成相關的損失……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們非常關心。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前掌握多少？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前是這樣，跟國科會比較相關的就是研究實驗室，當然學校，包含各方面的損害……"],["洪委員孟楷：國科會主管的科學園區在這一次0403地震，現在粗估總共損失有多少？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：目前因為整個都恢復營運，所以應該是相當有限，至於怎麼樣去計算這個損失……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是都沒有去查？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個牽扯到產業內部的評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是認為科學園區不關你們的事？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：關我們的事，當然是我們的責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：0403那麼重大的地震，全臺灣大家都在看，我剛剛開宗明義也說國際都在看，因為臺灣現在半導體的供應鏈非常重要……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：但是我們可以從……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在問的是你們主管的這幾個科學園區，0403已經經過了一個多禮拜，損失到底有多少？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：就整個科學園區硬體各方面的損失，幾乎是微乎其微，至於內部因為暫時停工、重新調整機台部分，屬於營業機密，它也不會直接……"],["洪委員孟楷：我請教一下……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：但是目前我們可以看……對不起！我一定要講。我們可以看到這個部分，事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委，非常好！你有底氣，我們都來有底氣，本席問政……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我盡量回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以去問一下教育文化委員會的委員，我真的是有一分證據、說一分話，如果你要這樣鬼話連篇，我們就來好好探究。206臺南大地震，南科損失多少錢？理賠金多少錢？科技廠，知不知道？157億！921的時候科學園區理賠多少錢？146億！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這個部分非常重要，所以我們也很關心。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一次0403大地震是921之後最大的地震，比206臺南大地震還要嚴重，結果臺南大地震的時候，南科損失到157億，你現在跟我說這次0403微乎其微，你的底氣從哪裡來？誰告訴你的資料？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：因為在明顯具體的損害跟破片的部分，事實上比上次好很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在我們也看到了……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：對不起！我回答這個很重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：產險業非常關心也非常擔心後續會有賠償的問題。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們也很擔心。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為科技大廠有投保所謂的商業險、火險、附加地震險。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去有921大地震跟206臺南大地震的經驗，可能有報廢、營業中斷或是儀器損失修復。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們很密切關心這一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去掌握？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：但這一點是屬於內部的盤點。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到目前為止，都還沒有掌握，對不對？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：還沒有任何公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們也沒有掌握，對不對？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們一定要掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定要掌握，什麼時候會掌握？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我完全同意，我們要密切掌握，但是目前還沒有任何消息。"],["洪委員孟楷：4月3號到現在4月11號，已經8天的時間過去了還沒有掌握，是不是就是現在的狀況？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：不是，產業界本身也在盤點，因為真的要經過一定的……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會掌握出來？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：另外還有一點，剛剛講這次地震雖然撼動很大，但是整個科學園區的準備事實上是比當時好很多，所以我們初步理解，機台的情況能快速回復，比上次好很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛開宗明義講了，這一次真的有很多因素，但是你們身為管理者，其實是最……不是說現在好很多，而是因為第一時間有很多的工程人員、很多的代班人員不眠不休、趕快搶修。再者是地震的震央，相對來講，發生在臺灣東南西北都是一個……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：比較遠，完全同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是震央沒有發生在科學園區。現在狀況是過了8天，大家都還在睡嗎？都沒有去掌握各園區的狀況，這才是今天本席……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們已經密切掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：難道不認為今天來報告，我們會關心這個事情、國人會關心這個事情嗎？這個資料都沒有準備嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：報告委員，我們有密切，但是這個部分也要廠商提供給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的密切在哪裡？什麼時候可以給本席資料？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：事實上我們都有密切定期跟產業……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以給本席資料？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，我們回去把目前已經既有的產業資料提供給委員，這個絕對沒有問題，但是這個必須要產業願意提供給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止，我跟你說昨天教育部來，次長都可以很明白回答在第一時間內就已經盤查全臺灣有505所學校有受損的狀況，其中東華大學20億，受損最嚴重，花蓮女中2.2億，其他學校陸陸續續回報；結果國科會在自己的幾個科學園區裡面，到目前為止、8天之後，連最基本的到底有多少損失、到底現在狀況怎麼樣都不知道，這就是國科會的效率嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：兩種損失是不一樣的，一個是硬體的直接損失，這個我們很容易估計，但是因為機台停工這部分造成的損失，這是屬於產業的整個機敏……"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委，今天下班以前給本席資料。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：好，我們可以給目前已經有的產業提供的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：我最後1分鐘的時間，我只要講……"],["主席：不要再1分鐘了啦！因為你已經超過兩分鐘了，洪委員，不好意思！"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，主席，如果像剛剛副主委的那種鬼話連篇，一直在那邊鬼打牆的話，浪費我的時間啊！是我的時間要跟你算啦！"],["林副主任委員敏聰：很抱歉啦！我們一定提供資料，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：本席今天特別關心，因為你們在報告第10頁裡面有提到淨零科技，淨零科技是本席很重要的方向，在上一屆的時候，2050淨零碳排及氣候變遷因應法，我們都一起共同推動，其中有講到所謂的海洋能，在之前本席也說過，北海岸地區現在因為核一、核二廠都已經除役，如果能夠開發北海岸的海洋能，能夠利用既有的電網，不會增加布建電網的成本，又能夠掌握到再生能源，這是北海岸非常好的一個契機，所以我們需要國科會針對海洋能，就在你第10頁裡面有投入的這一些捕捉、運用、生產等相關的技術研究再精進，這能不能做到？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：這可以做到，還有時間回答嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：有什麼樣的作為……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們目前已經有……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，你給我書面資料，我也希望針對北海岸地區海洋能的研究，國科會現在掌握的進度，以及未來怎麼樣能夠更進一步讓它變成有商業價值、有效率的運用，提出一個計畫跟本席報告，可以嗎？"],["林副主任委員敏聰：我們把目前已經有的計畫……"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜內。"],["林副主任委員敏聰：一個禮拜內，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：副主委聽好，一個禮拜內，把你們想要精進的作為，北海岸海洋能的部分跟本席辦公室報告，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，一個禮拜內就到……"],["林副主任委員敏聰：可以，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝副主委。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。今天的質詢時間是6加2，所以我請各位委員把握時間，超過時間……"],["洪委員孟楷：官員不要浪費委員的時間。"],["主席：好，接下來請柯志恩召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","萬美玲","范雲","鄭天財Sra 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outcall in還是二選一"},{"start":214.294,"end":241.923,"text":"再次致歉 對 對 抱歉我想這個主委有特別交代一下官員520前不要有這種代退老兵的心態絕對沒有 他們每天還是非常重要現在是新國會新民意1月13日之後我們都戰戰兢兢的因為我們都希望國家科技發展很重要但如果說用這種代退老兵的心態還是認為說520到了反正我拍拍屁股走人國科會跟我沒關係了喘不高醉不老"},{"start":243.66,"end":243.92,"text":"臺灣半導體供應很重要"},{"start":258.406,"end":273.972,"text":"臺積電我們真的也是要再一次的感謝臺積電以及我們所有的這些晶圓廠以及所有最重要的是第一線工程師說這些工程師地震發生之後大家都是逃難就工程師趕快趕回去休假的非休假的趕快趕回去就是要趕快來復工"},{"start":275.112,"end":294.432,"text":"去做整個機台的一個修復那現在台積電也講是說隔一天4月4號就已經講晶圓廠設備恢復率超過80%了那國科會也說竹科中科南科都陸續恢復中但我想現在確定一下此時此刻是不是所有的科學園區都已經正常的營運"},{"start":295.393,"end":296.934,"text":"4月4日媒體就已經報導80%了,現在幾號?4月11日"},{"start":314.88,"end":330.47,"text":"經過了7天時間了本時要問的是最新的進度不是應該掌握狀況怎麼樣來麻煩跟委員報告我想經營廠平時都有在做演練我現在只確認科學園區是不是都已經恢復正常了對幾乎了"},{"start":331.451,"end":353.642,"text":"大部分遺棄但是哪個小部分沒有恢復正常因為有些還要經過調教要做一些幾天的穩定度的試驗所以我們有沒有掌握有那有掌握資料在哪裡你剛剛講的狀況感覺是你沒有掌握有我們平常就有在跟各廠商聯絡那現在好你有沒有相關你現在手邊有沒有資料"},{"start":354.81,"end":367.391,"text":"到底現在恢復的程度到90% 80%還是還剩哪幾家廠商還沒有恢復有沒有這個資料我沒有辦法答覆每一個機台我現在不是問你機台"},{"start":369.401,"end":384.437,"text":"來 副主委本席的問題有那麼難回答嗎科學園區是不是恢復正常的運作我完全了解讓我稍微回答一下這問題很重要大家其實都會關心哪些機台多少%但是因為這些有些牽扯到整個"},{"start":385.458,"end":386.359,"text":"本席問的是說科學園區是不是完全恢復正常運作"},{"start":411.904,"end":427.457,"text":"我相信應該還是有少數的機材在做調整因為機材的調整本身他要去重新去reset parameter但這個部分我問正常人問立法院今天是不是有正常開會你會跟我講說有兩個科長今天請假嗎你會問說今天"},{"start":431.681,"end":456.966,"text":"委員會就是有正常開會就有正常開會沒正常開會就沒正常開會今天我問說科學園區是不是有正常運作一直在跟我講說科學園區裡面可能有機台還在修復中我不瞭解我們國科會是在管這種事情的嗎已經正常營運這個點我們可以講好那再來相關的因為這次04 03地震而造成相關的損失我們非常關心目前掌握多少"},{"start":457.606,"end":477.188,"text":"目前是這樣子,我有跟國科會有較相關的就是研究實驗室那當然整個學校包含各方面的這個損耗部分我們在這一次科學園區裡面,國科會主管這科學園區裡面0403地震,總共的這個園區的損失,現在初估有多少?"},{"start":478.957,"end":491.883,"text":"目前因為整個恢復的營運那應該是相當的有限那至於怎麼樣去計算這個損失是不是都沒有去查這個牽扯到 對不起牽扯到產業它的內部還是認為說科學園區不關你們的事是關你們的事是關你們的事那0403那麼重要的一個地震"},{"start":498.846,"end":499.786,"text":"對,但是我們可以從...就..."},{"start":518.407,"end":518.968,"text":"副主委 非常好"},{"start":538.371,"end":541.855,"text":"206台南大地震南科損失多少錢李培欽多少錢科技廠知不知道"},{"start":563.019,"end":564.721,"text":"157億九二一的時候科學園區理賠多少錢?"},{"start":569.845,"end":598.895,"text":"委員這個部分是非常重要那我們現在講是說這一次0403的大地震是921之後最大地震比那時候206的臺南大地震還要嚴重結果臺南大地震那時候南科有損失到157億你現在跟我講是說這次0403微乎其微你的底氣從哪裡來?誰告訴你的資料?因為他在明顯具體的損害跟破片這個部分事實上我們比上次好很多對不起委員委員這句我回答這個很重要"},{"start":599.195,"end":600.856,"text":"我們很密切關心這一點但是這一點"},{"start":622.073,"end":626.095,"text":"4月3日至4月11日已經8天時間過去了還沒有掌握是不是就現在的狀況?那什麼時候會掌握出來?另外有一點就是剛剛講"},{"start":645.027,"end":659.072,"text":"這次的地震雖然的撼動很大但是我們整個科學園區的準備事實上是比當時好很多所以我們整個機台我們初步的理解事實上是情況可能快速恢復是比上次好很多副主委"},{"start":661.872,"end":687,"text":"本席剛剛也開宗明義講了真的這一次有很多的因素但是你們身為管理者其實是最不是說現在說好很多是因為這一些都是第一時間很多的工程人員很多的代班人員不眠不休趕快去來做搶修再者是地震真的是震央相對來講發生在台灣東南西北都是一個震央但是沒有發生在我們科學園區的震央那另外一個部分"},{"start":687.8,"end":695.788,"text":"現在的狀況是說我們到底過了8天了大家都還在睡嗎都沒有去掌握說各園區的狀況這才是今天本行難道不認為說今天來做報告的時候我們會關心這個事情國人會關心這個事情嗎"},{"start":704.156,"end":706.499,"text":"這個資料都沒有準備嗎?你的密切在哪裡?什麼時候可以跟本席資料?我們回去把目前我們已經既有的產業資料提供給"},{"start":720.054,"end":727.401,"text":"到目前為止我跟你說昨天教育部來次長都可以很明白回答說在第一時間內就已經盤查全台灣有505所學校有受損的狀況其中東華大學20億受損最嚴重花蓮女中2.2億其他學校陸陸續續回報"},{"start":746.155,"end":766.085,"text":"結果我們國科會在自己的幾個科學園區裡面．到目前為止8天之後．連最基本的說到底有多少損失．到底現在狀況怎麼樣都不知道這就是國科會的一個效率嗎兩種損失是不一樣的一個是硬體的直接損失 這個我們很容易估計但是是因為機台停工這個狀況造了損失這屬於產業的這整個的"},{"start":769.206,"end":781.97,"text":"副主委今天下班以前給本席資料我最後一分鐘的時間我只要講說實在話主席如果說你剛剛那種副主委那種鬼話連篇剛剛一直在那邊鬼打牆的話浪費我的時間啊是我的時間要跟你算啊很抱歉我們一定提供資料我只講本席今天特別關心因為你們在第"},{"start":800.182,"end":815.155,"text":"第10頁裏面有提到近鄰科技近鄰科技是本期很重要的一個方向2050近鄰碳排以及氣候變遷因應法在上一屆的時候我們都一起共同推動"},{"start":816.016,"end":831.015,"text":"而其中有講到所謂的海洋能在之前本席也說過北海岸地區現在因為有合一合二廠都已經除役如果說能夠來針對北海岸海洋能的一個開發能夠利用既有的電網"},{"start":832.156,"end":852.957,"text":"不會增加布設電網的成本．又可以能夠掌握到再生能源．這是北海岸非常好的一個契機．所以我們需要．國科會針對海洋能就在你第10頁．裡面有投入的這一些捕捉．運用生產等相關的技術研究在精進．這能不能做到．"},{"start":855.218,"end":874.008,"text":"有什麼樣的作為方法沒關係你給我書面資料那我也希望針對北海岸地區海洋能的研究國科會現在掌握的進度以及未來有怎麼樣能夠更進一步讓它變成是有商業價值能夠有效率的運用提出一個計畫"},{"start":875.88,"end":876.201,"text":"與本席報告"}]}},{"id":"151024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b0d65e68e0a3cba15e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6bb2b46c06798901d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:16:44 - 09:18:10","影片長度":"00:01:26","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":86,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:18:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:16:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.274093750000002,"end":38.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.40471875,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.19971875,"end":82.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.31284375,"end":87.17346875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":27.644,"text":"條文修正草案提案說明。謝謝主席。針對這次的野保法修法,目前我國對於飼養野生動物的管理,野生動物的私運是由所有人或戰友人填具資料卡,再報請主管機關備查之。然而現行的程序並沒有依照野生動物的物種去做分類。"},{"start":28.564,"end":50.078,"text":"三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":54.601,"end":82.077,"text":"審查之。」此外,我們的提案也針對院版目前的第37條的積極微補提出一個更明確的定義以及指引,透過邀集專業人士的協助微補,才可以在微補過程之中,如果有可能造成的民眾損傷或是財產損失來降到最低,也可以避免當初六福村廢廢事件中因為當初的計劃不周而造成的後續爭議。以上的提案說明,懇請各位委員支持。謝謝。"},{"start":85.725,"end":87.064,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b8bcda69e461a1274e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a610461491437e869a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:14:57 - 09:16:42","影片長度":"00:01:45","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":105,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:16:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:14:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.24096875,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.27346875,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.01471875,"end":105.53346875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.291,"end":2.164,"text":"我們請呂玉玲委員做提案說明。"},{"start":11.822,"end":40.812,"text":"謝謝主席。針對本席的提案是《野保法》的第十九條跟第二十一條跟二十一條之一的條文修正草案。本席與其他委員共十七人以強化野生動物保育為原則認為應該杜絕殘忍的獵具來使用並應該特殊緊急的情況之下及原住民狩獵傳統的文化中取得平衡點所以在第十九條的部分"},{"start":41.272,"end":47.659,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":64.076,"end":79.037,"text":"條列補的國際的趨勢。另外在第21條跟21條之一若是野生動物有危害農、漁、牧、業的發展跟民眾的生命以及考量原住民的傳統"},{"start":79.958,"end":98.974,"text":"首列文化可以例外的來使用第十九條的第一項、第三項跟第五項較具有人道精神的列補規定以促進尊重動物生命的觀念彰顯著人道的精神。以上請各位同仁支持。"}]}},{"id":"151022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200ba9d5006852d2a48ae63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a647f90869a70d2c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:11:50 - 09:14:54","影片長度":"00:03:04","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":184,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:14:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:11:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.30721875,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.05534375,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.70096875,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.62471875,"end":180.71159375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.094,"end":0.427,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":14.298,"end":17.219,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":33.246,"end":60.427,"text":"八零三號解釋,因此在第二十一條之一增列了非營利自用的要件,納入原住民族獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍,並且改採被查制,原住民獵捕野生動物以行政處罰,取代刑罰。同時呢,院版的草案也將全面禁用售假作為本次修法的重點,"},{"start":61.207,"end":77.356,"text":"不過我們在第十九條的立法說明中有看到本法所稱獸匣是依據動物保護法所定義的列具而不包含原住民的傳統列具基於大法官的解釋對原住民狩獵權的維護"},{"start":79.217,"end":96.554,"text":"及民間社會提倡的人道考量對於全面禁用售甲本席予以尊重,但是仍需考量法令落實的操作過程可能會有的疏漏,進而在本席所提出的版本予以修正,重點"},{"start":97.935,"end":125.764,"text":"參見修正動議第十九條及第二十一條之一（本席第十九條修正文字除了一到六款的列補方法外新增第七款使用原住民族傳統列據以及第八款使用壽甲將原住民族的列據及壽甲分別處理並在二十一條之一的修正文字中將第七款的原住民族列據增列為處罪化範圍"},{"start":126.944,"end":150.262,"text":"確保大法官釋字以及院版草案的精神得以落實。此外,鑒於原住民族自治獵槍除罪化的推動經驗,原住民族人或獵人處於部落山區,加上語言隔閡、資訊的可敬性有別於一般社會,一旦修法後,如果立即實施,就會有許多族人因此面臨訴訟、入罪。"},{"start":152.043,"end":179.859,"text":"因此本席於第21條之一增列第三項希望原住民族人使用壽甲得有兩年的免罰寬限輔導期使主管機關檢警以及原住民族人得有充裕的列具汰換以及改善時間以完備本次修法尊重原住民族傳統狩獵文化的主要精神懇請立院同仁以及行政部門予以支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200bcf2352ea30152f82e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6532b639e3ebb23d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:09:06 - 09:11:42","影片長度":"00:02:36","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"date":"2024-04-11","duration":156,"end_time":"2024-04-11T09:11:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-11T09:09:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.283468750000004,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.40471875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.04659375000001,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":153.79596875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.449,"end":1.553,"text":"黃捷委員作其案說明。"},{"start":14.174,"end":39.141,"text":"謝謝主席各位主席跟各位同仁大家好在這次的野保的修正案裡面因為我認為台灣是一座非常生態資源豐富的島嶼我們需要大家共同來守護但是這個野保法已經11年沒有修正了跟現在的情況確實不合時宜那我希望這個法規可以隨著我們保育的需求越來越高可以滾動式的調整"},{"start":39.701,"end":43.103,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":59.311,"end":76.057,"text":"規範是過於寬鬆的,所以會導致動物在逃逸的時候這個管領人沒有辦法及時通報或是積極地圍捕,而且過去野保法在制定的時候並沒有充分地尊重原住民的傳統文化,然後剝奪了他們在非營利自用的狩獵權。"},{"start":77.657,"end":94.224,"text":"所以希望在這一次的修正當中來把這些權利都放進去而且過去在查獲這些保育類野生動物的產製品的時候對於犯案的工作物以及相關的物品的所有權的歸屬並沒有明確的認定所以會導致檢調跟法院在偵審的時候舉證很困難"},{"start":100.046,"end":115.2,"text":"那為了解決以上種種的問題這一次提了四個修正的內容第一個我們必須全面的禁用售假這個我相信是大家對於保護野生動物保育的共識再來第二個人為的管理的"},{"start":116.081,"end":124.389,"text":"條文修正草案條例第十四條之一及第十六條條文修正草案條例第十六條之一及第十八條條文修正草案條例第十八條之一及第十八條條文修正草案條例第十八條之一及第十八條條例第十八條條例"},{"start":136.641,"end":153.528,"text":"條文修正草案．第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"}]}},{"id":"15802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15802","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcf7460912bad191e90f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be452ee6e92b299e0095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「如何落實國會調查／聽證權以有效監督行政機關，並防範機密外洩危害國安」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-04-11T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-04-11T12:30:00+08:00","duration":14354,"影片長度":"03:59:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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張教授"},{"start":1910.899,"end":1927.818,"text":"再來是來自國立臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系的紀俊成紀教授歡迎您接下來是國家政策研究基金會的李嘉維副研究員歡迎您"},{"start":1929.502,"end":1957.353,"text":"以及來自益謙法律事務所的林俊宏林律師歡迎您謝謝接下來我們介紹列席的政府機關代表首先介紹我們立法院張玉榮副秘書長歡迎您我們接下來介紹法務部蔡碧仲政務次長歡迎您接下來是來自大陸委員會梁文傑副主任委員歡迎您"},{"start":1959.502,"end":1986.812,"text":"接下來是總統府第一局蘇俊卿專門委員歡迎您接下來是司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳陳一一廳長歡迎您接下來是行政院綜合業務處的彭少博處長歡迎您以及外交國防法務處的張文豪參議員歡迎您以及法規會的薛宇順科長歡迎您"},{"start":1989.229,"end":2012.176,"text":"接下來是考試院保訓重規處我們的龜毅處長謝謝那來自內政部合作及人民團體司葉昭宏專門委員歡迎您接下來是外交部條約法律司黃仁良專門委員歡迎您"},{"start":2014.235,"end":2035.765,"text":"國防部法律事務司法紀調查處王秉峰副處長行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處賴嘉陽專門委員中央選舉委員會楊志傑人事室主任公平教育委員會法律事務處楊義昌副處長"},{"start":2038.976,"end":2063.86,"text":"接下來是國家通訊傳播委員會﹐法律事務處的蔡信怡專門委員﹐歡迎您接下來是個人資料保護委員會籌備處﹐查核規劃組﹐張玉玲組長﹐歡迎您接下來是不當黨產處理委員會的﹐林聰賢副主任委員﹐歡迎您接下來是國家安全局的秘書室﹐李副主任﹐歡迎您"},{"start":2065.779,"end":2077.691,"text":"好那接下來在場的有我們的介紹羅志強羅委員以及吳思堯委員歡迎您謝謝好那現在請議事委員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":2081.287,"end":2109.044,"text":"討論提綱一依據憲法權力分立與大法官釋憲意旨立法院雖在一定要件下得行使調查權但行政機關有行政特權尤其涉及國家安全或國家核心關鍵技術之秘密均因於保密在國會改革法案中因如何調適兩者必使國家安全利益與國家核心研發能力得以確保二在擴大立法委員調查權之時立法委員之倫理倫理準則及"},{"start":2111.085,"end":2124.716,"text":"自律規範是否應一併強化避免權責不相當如相關調查聽證涉及司部門相關法制應有何種配套措施避免侵害企業或科技之研發核心競爭力宣讀完畢"},{"start":2128.032,"end":2149.352,"text":"好今天我們根據昨天繼續進行公聽會那主要討論的是在最近朝野各政黨都提出了相關於國會改造的相關法案來強化國會權那其中關於要如何來落實國會的調查聽證權以有效的監督行政機關但在同時呢"},{"start":2151.625,"end":2174.204,"text":"強化權力的同時因為經過調查和預言機密那如何防範機密損及到國家利益我想這也是我們關切的議題所以今天邀請到的學者專家以及邀請列席的政府機關首長代表我們就是要針對在國會行使調查或聽證權的同時因為如此而得悉相關機密"},{"start":2175.245,"end":2198.661,"text":"不管是公務部門國家機密或是私人的營業秘密如何防止語文人員因而外洩損及包括私人人民的利益或者是國家的利益那就是我們今天聽證會的重點之一首先我們就進行程序的說明在邀請各位發言之前有幾點說明首先請學者專家先發言"},{"start":2199.441,"end":2216.489,"text":"發言順序依照簽到的先後順序如果需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況作為調整那本院委員我們按照登記先後順序發言如果在場委員要發言請先登記那麼如果陸續到場呢本席會安排穿插"},{"start":2217.45,"end":2226.464,"text":"委員發言政府機關代表發言學者專家及委員意見加以回應與會者請致發言臺發言"},{"start":2232.113,"end":2232.313,"text":"請陳鵬光律師發言"},{"start":2273.833,"end":2294.834,"text":"主席還有各位先進那針對今天的這樣的一個公聽會我想涉及到很重大的一個憲政議題那議題也很多那我想主要就幾個面向來說明那第一個就是說雖然提綱有講到國會的一個調查權跟聽證權但我想第一點我還想強調"},{"start":2296.175,"end":2321.042,"text":"在內閣制的一個國家他們會有所謂的一個立委的一個質詢的一個權利但在總統制的國家會有所謂聽證權而沒有所謂的一個執行權所以就這個質詢跟聽證應該要予以區別啦那雖然它交集的部分是有所謂的國會的一個調查權但我個人還是比較傾向於說在我國我們應該是有國會的一個調查權而這種"},{"start":2322.262,"end":2324.384,"text":"有好多號的一個大法官的解釋有做了一定程度的一個說明"},{"start":2338.533,"end":2354.983,"text":"但基本上可以知道的就是說這個國會調查權它所涉及的一個對象可能會有公部門也有可能會有私部門那公部門的部分有可能會涉及到這個憲政機關它的一個權力的一個核心領域所以必須遵守權力分立原則"},{"start":2355.723,"end":2381.866,"text":"那四部門的部分就會涉及到會侵害人民的一個基本權因為你傳喚一個比如說傳喚一個人民的話你要他到場這就有行動自由那你要他說明可能又會有表意自由那中間過程中還會涉及到隱私秘密甚至財產這個專利營業秘密等等的一個保護所以必須要符合這個權利侵害必須要符合這個包括比例原則正當法律程序等等那他所行使的方法"},{"start":2383.047,"end":2399.809,"text":"至少依照大法官它可以分成三個類型第一個是資料的提供第二個是文件的調閱第三個是可能是傳喚到場的說明那這三種的一個方式它侵害跟干預的程度其實是不同的那越強烈的話"},{"start":2400.45,"end":2400.73,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":2421.471,"end":2448.087,"text":"然後就這個憲法上的各種要求然後在專法裡面做比較細緻的一個規定那這樣的一個國會調查權它的發動它基本上是要獲取資訊然後來準備立法跟監督行政那在這樣的一個目的之下它的發動呢如果按照大法官的一個解釋它都必須要涉及到這個立法院的一個職權的一個行使"},{"start":2448.607,"end":2473.155,"text":"甚至在多號的大法官的解釋有提到它必須要是議案涉及的事項而且這個議案它有兩個要件第一個必須要跟立法院的行使憲法上職權有重大關聯第二個是這個議案必須要是屬於目的跟範圍都是明確的特定的議案"},{"start":2474.615,"end":2499.395,"text":"所以只有在這樣的一個特定明確的議案而且是有跟職權重大關聯的議案才能夠展開調查那在調查程序上也因此是強烈建議必須在相關的通知要去記載這個特定的議案它的目的跟範圍因為這樣才能夠去判斷立法院的職權行使是不是符合憲法上的一個要求"},{"start":2501.577,"end":2528.592,"text":"縱使是可以發動,他在發動的程序上還是有他一定的一個要件那他就包括說原則上呢他必須要是經過院會的一個決議那這個在大法官的這個相關解釋都有說明就文件的調閱跟證人的傳喚是必須要院會的決議那如果是就資料,參考資料的提供這個才可以例外由委員會來做決議就好那"},{"start":2529.292,"end":2537.642,"text":"也因此呢其實大法官他是有區分所謂的一個參考資料提供跟文件調閱還有傳喚證人那如果是要文件調閱跟傳喚證人不論是4-325號或4-585號他都有講是要必要時"},{"start":2544.75,"end":2568.368,"text":"那什麼叫做必要時呢 這個可能在解釋上 雖然有看到有些學者認為說是要公益必要作為他的要件但光靠這個是不是足夠 那我個人是比較存疑 我認為應該要達到非准許調閱文件或傳喚證人的那就不能或難以達到調查目的 完成調查違憲 要達到這樣的一個程度"},{"start":2569.068,"end":2592.851,"text":"那縱使是可以允許去做相關的調查那他也不能夠侵害這個其他國家機關受憲法保障的一個核心領域那這部分在4至585號講的就很清楚包括這個行政特權的部分像涉及國安、國防外交等等的一個機密事項那都不能夠去"},{"start":2594.012,"end":2608.695,"text":"與侵犯這部分其實是可以參考政府資訊公開法跟國家機密保護法的一個相關規定就人民的部分甚至其實也可能會涉及到公部門的部分就是會有所謂的拒絕提出文件跟拒絕證言的一個室友"},{"start":2609.156,"end":2635.054,"text":"那這邊不論是刑事訴訟法或民事訴訟法都有相關的一個規定可以來加以參考比如說就民事訴訟法也有規定如果是這個相關的陳述會足深財產上的直接損害比如說如果是營業秘密或專利等等那或受刑事的訴追不治證己罪或者關於這個職務上跟業務上有關的秘密義務這個都是可以拒絕證言的啦那在這個民事訴訟法344條"},{"start":2636.915,"end":2642.84,"text":"就文件的提出其實也有因為隱私或營業秘密涉及在內可以拒絕提出文書那這都是可以參考的那在調查的過程中呢如果有一定的必要這個詢問的話那就不當的詢問也是可以也應該可以予以異議跟制止那同時呢也要保障呢受重範人有權選慮選任這個法律上的一個輔佐人那至於程序的部分要不要公開"},{"start":2664.119,"end":2688.786,"text":"我是建議應該要區別公部門跟私部門的一個調查情況那公部門的部分也許比較有公開的一個必要但如果是涉及到私部門成為調查的一個對象的話原則上應該是以秘密進行為必要那在調查之後如果取得相關的這個資訊那這時候更應該也要加一定的這樣的一個維護它的一個秘密性那這個在4至7月9號有提到"},{"start":2690.086,"end":2706.858,"text":"那這部分其實也會涉及到就是說立法院在卷宗管理還有相關人員的一個守密義務可能都是有待要去加強啦那特別是如果涉及到國安或兩岸相關的一個關係或秘密的話那對於相關人員"},{"start":2707.839,"end":2728.775,"text":"是不是要比照這個密保令的部分要予以一定的一個加強它的守密義務同時就出入中國的部分是不是要予以一定的一個管制然後來修訂兩岸關係兩岸人民關係條例相關的一個規定因為我們可以想像比如說"},{"start":2729.315,"end":2729.555,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":2753.24,"end":2776.266,"text":"另外就這個不配合調查的一個處罰的部分在要件上可能必須要符合所謂的一個構成要件明確性的一個原則所以也許不到場拒絕答覆拒絕提出那要加一定的這個處罰這個要件是比較明確啦但是如果就所謂的答非所問實問虛答或者反問甚至用所謂的藐視國會這樣作為構成要件"},{"start":2778.627,"end":2795.163,"text":"可能在構成要件的明確性上也許就比較有它的一個問題那效果的部分大法官已經有說明他說就是說在經過院會決議的時候是可以予以在這個可以予以一定的一個行政的一個罰款"},{"start":2796.804,"end":2815.576,"text":"那因此這個處罰的一個權限應該是屬於立法院而且要經過院會的決議那應該不能夠是委有其他的單位來行使那我認為也不應該委有行政法院來裁定罰款那一方面因為這不是屬於行政法院的權限二方面如果由行政法院自己來裁罰"},{"start":2816.417,"end":2844.596,"text":"那到時候要救濟那到底誰要當作所謂的原告救濟的對象這都是問題那另外呢在處罰上也不能夠做不能夠採用刑法為這個強制手段那這個在4至585號其實解釋的理由有說得很清楚他說立法院行使調查權所附屬的這個強制權利應以科處罰緩為限所以如果從大法官的文字來看這邊應該是比較沒有如學者所講的還有討論的空間"},{"start":2847.438,"end":2872.378,"text":"舊紀的一個部分可能也要是區別他調查的對象是公部門或私部門而定公部門也許會有這個總統的院紀調解乃至於說必要的話要到憲法法庭這個是機關爭議訴訟的一個案件那在私部門的部分可能要到法院由法院來審理那在整個審理的過程中一樣要注意秘密的一個維護那這部分我想相對的法院是有經驗的因為我們"},{"start":2874.259,"end":2900.394,"text":"包括這個治審法 傷審法都有相關的秘密保持令的一個規定可以加以施用 謝謝好 非常謝謝我們陳律師的發言接下來有請羅志強委員發言 謝謝主席以及我們今天與會的專家學者其實這幾場的公聽會"},{"start":2902.982,"end":2922.182,"text":"我幾乎全程都有在聽大家的發言所以學習收穫也非常多這幾天的公聽會其實我自己有一個感受就是國會改革尤其是聽證調查的建立以及藐視國會罪的立法其實有三大好處"},{"start":2923.343,"end":2944.973,"text":"第一個就是可以讓官員不敢也不能說謊首先我要跟各位說明一下就是擔任立法委員這兩個月來的心得坦白講我覺得過去我們的立法院對於所謂的立法權 立法的調查權其實是相當的怠惰的"},{"start":2945.663,"end":2972.987,"text":"那使得在我們在跟官員不管在索取資訊然後甚至在質詢的過程當中其實立法委員比我想像的落實得多得多為什麼因為很簡單以現在我們現行體制我跟行政機關調資料就是看行政機關的良心他要不要給你他我想要的資料看他高興他有一百種方式來去敷衍或是拖延提供給你的資料"},{"start":2973.627,"end":2986.782,"text":"甚至在備詢台上或是在我們跟官員在質詢網附過過去你也看到有一些包括甚至最嚴重到說謊的情形都曾經發生過可是回頭一句話請問說謊又怎麼樣請問不提供資料怎麼樣"},{"start":2991.007,"end":3008.558,"text":"請問今天提供你的虛擬掩飾的資料又怎麼樣答案是 真的不能怎麼樣嘛所以我們的林志傑教授三場公聽會我都有看到您我覺得至少一個共識可以達成啦就你也不贊成官員可以說謊嘛但是我覺得不贊成官員可以說謊可以更進一步"},{"start":3009.238,"end":3024.203,"text":"就是不讓官員可以說謊就必須有約束的制度不管你要是行政法還是刑事法可以討論但是如果沒有約束官員的制度那我講白了說不說謊就是他良心失業所以如果"},{"start":3025.063,"end":3042.071,"text":"今天我們反對今天制定約束官員說謊的制度那跟支持官員說謊到底差別在哪裡我不知道所以今天我講的第一件事情就是讓官員不敢也不能說謊你才能夠落實今天立法委員問政最基本的核心職權嘛"},{"start":3045.394,"end":3062.014,"text":"補充幾個概念有些是把所謂的國會聽證調查跟刑事訴訟來做類比我覺得類比是有些問題但也有些可以參照第一個 講被告不自證己罪抱歉 被告不自證己罪不等於被告可以在法庭上說謊"},{"start":3063.455,"end":3091.621,"text":"行事訴訟時務被告若在法庭上說謊是可以構成法官認為他犯後態度不佳然後虛擬掩飾變成他的量刑的一個判斷所以被告不自證己罪一樣會在法官的量刑過程當中予以考量你被告面對犯罪後的態度那第二個被告不自證己罪為什麼不能夠做一個類比很簡單因為官員跟相關人士在聽證調查來到國會他不是被告啊"},{"start":3092.541,"end":3111.02,"text":"他是來為公共政策公共利益為立法跟預算相關事項立法權在行使的過程當中來這裡為證言所以怎麼會是被告呢所以這個類比我覺得是不成立的那另外有講到說在刑事訴訟體系之下證人也可以拒絕證言 是的"},{"start":3111.661,"end":3131.591,"text":"政人是原則上必須證言但例外的符合某些條件是可以拒絕證言但是拒絕證言前的行使不等於政人拒絕願意作證之後可以在所謂的法庭上說謊因為如果這樣的話就構成偽證罪同樣的體系體力是可以在國會聽證調查裡面一樣可以來去實現的那第二個好處就是可以落實國會的憲政職權"},{"start":3139.795,"end":3156.016,"text":"我剛前面講就是說今天土法不足以自行啦憲法規定立法委員有監督政府有立法權有所謂的預算的審查權等等的權利但是如果今天不能夠賦予相當的強制力就會變成"},{"start":3157.077,"end":3161.16,"text":"陳其邁過去在主張國會聽證調查曾經說過如果沒有我們沒有聽證調查體系我們只要立法委員就是無牙的老虎根本沒辦法貫徹到憲政職權這樣的一個主張現在我們的準行政院副院長鄭玉君也提到過"},{"start":3177.432,"end":3206.652,"text":"所以換言之今天國會聽證調查以及藐視國會的建立是來彌補過去立法院的一個很大的一個缺漏最後我覺得我們如果能夠今天好好立法事實上可以實現賴清德、鄭麗君、陳其邁、柯建民、林佳龍、蔡同榮等等民進黨的前輩們過去心心念念的國會改革心心念念的聽證調查心心念念的藐視國會罪希望我們這一次不分黨派一起來實現國會改革以上謝謝"},{"start":3208.055,"end":3212.132,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員接下來有請林智傑教授發言"},{"start":3219.815,"end":3246.566,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位先進各位幕僚同仁大家早安大家好太可惜了羅委員走了他終於還我清白說他聽了三場仔細聆聽我真的沒有講過官員可以說謊那他現在來澄清這個有什麼用呢因為他已經在臉書跟引發整個媒體包括TikTok的假訊息假攻擊這裡就回到我們剛剛的議題裡面重要的一欄叫做權責如何相當"},{"start":3247.466,"end":3271.764,"text":"我可以告羅委員嗎 恐怕沒有辦法因為在公聽會裡面 立法委員的言論具有言論免責權但是我們要講的是 你的言論免責權緊急於在你的議會場內所以如果離開議會以後 你在臉書上發表不實的言論或者是你洩露談論重要的 不應該外洩的機密事實上立法委員依然應該要負擔一定的法律責任"},{"start":3272.444,"end":3292.597,"text":"所以簡單講為什麼今天我們在談國會改革的時候必須要有一個周全的配套措施姑且不論剛剛羅委員對於被告跟證人的整個概念跟刑事訴訟法的理解有錯誤因為證人的拒絕證言權 裡面也有很大一部分是不自證己罪的特權"},{"start":3293.397,"end":3309.125,"text":"因為證人在詢問的過程裏面跟本案的關係往往錯綜複雜非常可能一開始以證人的身份傳喚但當他言說之後發現原來具有犯罪的嫌疑導致今天證人轉被告"},{"start":3309.725,"end":3339.385,"text":"所以如果能夠熟悉法律的操作多讀一點書我相信他一定能夠理解今天如果把調查權擴大到私人那麼非常有可能我以證人的身份來傳喚你聽證跟調查事後從你的言說之中發現有問題立刻把你用藐視國會或者是不實的言論來加以可處第二個要講的是民進黨有心心念念藐視國會罪嗎?並沒有各位可以去看過去的草案"},{"start":3340.105,"end":3340.125,"text":"公聽會"},{"start":3370.145,"end":3385.074,"text":"但是這個調查不應該急於企業跟私人企業跟私人可以協助你調查與公務和行政監督有關的事項但不可以成為你調查的課題或者完全與公務無關的事項"},{"start":3386.354,"end":3399.399,"text":"但是當然這個如何界定必須要非常的謹慎比如說臺積電到熊本去設廠請問這到底與行政權的相關聯度有或是沒有因為政府也許給予一定的補貼跟幫忙"},{"start":3400.999,"end":3422.531,"text":"你一定要說它跟政府的部門有關好像也不是正因為這樣才有我們今天公聽會也就是說倘若今天已經擴大到私人企業跟私人的團體有義務來協助你調查你就必須確保在這個調查過程裡面不去侵犯私人跟企業相關的基本權利"},{"start":3423.892,"end":3438.948,"text":"那這裡就要提到如何不去侵犯如何避免在這個過程中立法委員作出以言論免責權為保護傘不願意負責任卻又侵害他人人權的行為呢第一個我要講的就是權責必須相當美國有藐視國會罪"},{"start":3443.032,"end":3459.84,"text":"但是美國對議員的要求跟倫理規範非常的多我們可以Google一下2023年12月被驅逐出美國國會的Sandoz他的情況就是認為被有倫理規範的違反所以直接國會可以做出哪些呢"},{"start":3460.76,"end":3485.387,"text":"他的倫理委員會可以要求國會議員道歉﹖罰款﹖停權﹖限制出席會議﹖公開譴責﹖甚至驅逐出會﹖褫奪國會議員的身份哇好想有這樣子的一個權利喔我就可以來申訴羅委員跟劉委員對我在網路上面的不實指控可惜我們目前立法委員行違法對相關的規範復之缺乳"},{"start":3487.387,"end":3500.442,"text":"各位想一下 面對有犯罪嫌疑的司法我們在司法程序裡面對法官跟檢察官要求何其嚴格我們有法官法 我們有法官倫理規範我們有法官評鑑委員會 我們有檢察官評鑑委員會"},{"start":3504.907,"end":3532.16,"text":"任何人如果認為有問題都可以來提出要求評鑑法官檢察官在這麼嚴格的自律跟懲戒規範下我們尚且沒有辦法定定藐視司法罪你立法院何德何能你的相關倫理規範復之缺乳行為法如此軟弱竟然要定藐視國會罪在此同時難道不可能以這樣子的罪來勒索企業"},{"start":3532.72,"end":3548.451,"text":"威脅私人甚至造成重要的企業營業秘密外洩或者是理通敵國想辦法把這種企業或者是重要的國家核心關鍵機密利用調查的情況來得知洩露給我們的敵對勢力嗎"},{"start":3551.261,"end":3570.97,"text":"二、兩岸條例及國安法都有規範知曉秘密的人在出境管制或附中管制上的要求如果今天你的調查範圍如此廣泛你的相關知曉秘密的人的管制"},{"start":3572.29,"end":3599.827,"text":"物的管制資訊的管制是不是要更加的強化我還看到這個草案裡面有一個條文他說我如果自己沒有能力調查我還可以違給有能力的機關來調查哇賽 這真是不得了了所以立法院還可以違給觸同黨來調查請問一下如果你委任其他的機構來調查這個被你委任的機關它是不是具有相關的專業性"},{"start":3602.322,"end":3617.353,"text":"這些委任的機關是不是應該也要遵守一定的保密協定這些接觸到國防或者是企業關鍵機密資訊的人員需不需要遵守如同我們智慧財產法院審理法"},{"start":3618.314,"end":3637.944,"text":"或者是我們營業秘密法裡面的秘密保持令的要求你相關的配套措施一個字都沒有竟然只要求不配合以及被你說謊的人民就立刻要處以藐視國會罪這種權責不相當的草案也是令人開了眼界"},{"start":3640.528,"end":3649.666,"text":"大法官釋字435號解釋曾經說原則上我們尊重國會因為他有言論免責權他必須要監督行政審議預算"},{"start":3651.465,"end":3668.818,"text":"但不代表司法機關完全對於國會議員的言行不能介入所以435有說司法機關於必要時亦得真審這代表什麼這代表你立法院自己的行為法裡面必須定出明確的倫理準則"},{"start":3670.459,"end":3688.254,"text":"立法委員你不是在那個制外法權現在想成說你做任何的事情都是你最大然後你永遠不會侵害別人完全不是這樣所以我個人為什麼在今天的提綱中我覺得主席跟這個會會這個委員會你的非常好特別提到權責相當跟倫理規範的要求"},{"start":3692.117,"end":3716.867,"text":"因此首先第一個我們必須要要求立法委員在做所有的調查行為中不得將人民跟私部門作為調查的課題與人民跟私部門被你要求前來配合調查的時候除了言論免責權所行使的範圍立法委員本身需有高度的自律以及相關的倫理規範"},{"start":3718.618,"end":3718.638,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3737.726,"end":3752.275,"text":"過去參與營業秘密法跟國家安全法核心關鍵技術的修法我要講的是很多時候公部門會不小心或者是被利用成為企業不公平競爭的打手"},{"start":3753.255,"end":3766.62,"text":"這個在關鍵機敏事項尤其如此比如說A企業他跟B企業處於競爭關係他想要取得B企業的重要核心秘密他的做法就是去檢舉B企業竊取了A的營業秘密"},{"start":3770.56,"end":3795.89,"text":"在調查過程中他跟檢察官說我不知道他到底偷了什麼我要看他的東西我才知道偷了什麼B企業非常傻眼他說那這樣我家的機密不是被你看光了嗎請問各位今天你要擴大調查到人民公司團體你如何避免自己立法院介入企業經營權或研發競爭的關係之中避免自己成為企業的打手"},{"start":3796.946,"end":3798.547,"text":"好 謝謝我們林智傑教授接下來有請黃士傑律師發言請"},{"start":3834.468,"end":3860.102,"text":"好謝謝主席我們與會的各位學者專家我們所有的列席的官員立法院的同仁以及所有的媒體以及我所有關心國會改革以及這個聽國會的調查聽證權如何能夠有效的來行使但是又不可以避免侵害這個人民的權利我想這個是我們今天非常非常關鍵的一個題目那麼剛才我聽了羅志強委員的這個一番話之後"},{"start":3863.084,"end":3889.245,"text":"其實我覺得非常的混亂也就是說我覺得好像我們在假設我們今天要在立法院來進行一個聽證的程序或者是他來調查的時候我們邀請來的人到底是什麼樣的身份我們行使這個權利是在什麼樣的範圍內什麼樣的條件下然後我們行使的這個權利作用會有什麼樣的法律效果"},{"start":3890.441,"end":3916.267,"text":"然後藉此來界定我們邀請來的對象到底他負有多大的責任跟義務來配合然後我們才可以去思考說他如果不配合的時候要用什麼樣的法律效果來制裁所以走到最後一步的所謂的藐視國會或者說拒絕配合的這個法律效果之前有這麼多的前提問題應該要先來釐清"},{"start":3919.349,"end":3933.821,"text":"也就是說昨天這個楊志傑教授他在說了這個講述這個聽證權的時候呢他其實經常不斷的把這個hearing逼你為一個法庭"},{"start":3935.049,"end":3961.746,"text":"也確實我們現在所謂的聽證程序跟所謂俗稱的公聽會有什麼區別呢事實上很多就是是不是更接近這個法庭的審理程序也就是說不管是這個文件這個調查或者是參與的人他到底是在作證還是在表達意見還是只是來表達他的訴求到底他的身份是什麼"},{"start":3962.626,"end":3986.549,"text":"所以我印象中之前我們行政程序法訂立之後關於行政的聽證程序為了做出某一個行政處分或者是某一種特定的行政行為的需要甚至為了這個都市計畫訂立等等的要舉辦聽證的時候還需要去特地的訓練一批聽證的主持人"},{"start":3987.65,"end":4002.043,"text":"才不會讓這個聽證程序進行不下去或是混亂昨天我們這個羅傳賢前局長他也特地提到他也去受過這些訓練甚至參與過地方政府邀請他所舉辦的這個行政聽證程序"},{"start":4003.291,"end":4025.836,"text":"我們如果把這些問題起來思考比你假設今天立法院在行使立法權的時候不管是要行使的是同意權或者是為了質詢某些事項的需要他想要瞭解事情的真相所以他來舉辦這個聽證程序我們相關的這些前提的問題"},{"start":4027.366,"end":4038.833,"text":"以及我們負責主持這個聽證程序的合適立法委員或他委託之人有沒有相關的規範跟相關的訓練可以依循"},{"start":4042.316,"end":4070.098,"text":"這跟今天的題目很有關係我們要如何去避免今天我們的提綱所提到的這些不管是機密的外洩影響國安或者是昨天所講到的人民的權利受到侵害隱私等等的是要仰賴我們實際在進行的過程裡面有這樣子的一個確保我最後還舉了一些例子剛剛我們這個林志傑教授有提到事實上我們的立法委員"},{"start":4071.144,"end":4094.236,"text":"基於他是一個政治人物基於他社會這個接觸行為的需要他的交往關係非常的複雜對不對我們可以看到前一陣子立法委員可以透過這個行政機關監督監理單位的機關的官員去邀請受監理單位"},{"start":4098.574,"end":4122.771,"text":"的董事長們來參敘然後不斷地公開被揭露之後說我們只是想要多認識多了解一下業務如果類似的行為發生在法官或檢察官的身上我們社會的觀感是如何幾年前臺南的富商翁茂忠"},{"start":4124.11,"end":4124.71,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4146.293,"end":4165.968,"text":"這個質疑的非常嚴重認為這樣的行為造成司法的這個可以說皇后的徵抄被懷疑的那我們的立法院每天都在跟這個社會上的各行各業的人士來往那你又有這種發動的條件"},{"start":4170.065,"end":4193.528,"text":"不明確 調查的範圍不明確然後也沒有任何的倫理規範沒有任何的事後制裁的效果這樣子的權力 廣泛的權力賦予立法權的時候是不是真的很有可能會有今天提綱所說的這些事項有可能會發生"},{"start":4195.282,"end":4221.297,"text":"所以我是真的非常的憂心也非常高度的懷疑我們的國人台灣的社會是不是真的認為說目前我們的草案所顯示出來的這樣子的一個廣泛的權利真的是我們要賦予給立法權的嗎更何況不斷的反覆回來提到權力分立的界限同一件事情假設"},{"start":4223.011,"end":4230.773,"text":"這個司法機關或是監察機關他也有調查的憲法上的責任和義務的時候立法權行使的界限到哪裡"},{"start":4232.185,"end":4261.119,"text":"因為調查是一個非常空泛的今天我們雖然不斷地說要跟立法權的憲法律所賦予他的權力密接關係的才可以行事但是我們可以知道光質詢權這一項他就是包山包海我們站在這裡尋答的過程什麼都可以問那問的對象如果還從政府官員擴及到所謂的私人的時候到底是"},{"start":4262.419,"end":4289.844,"text":"這個私人如果認為說我跟你要問的事也沒關係為什麼你要叫我他能夠拒絕的範圍到哪裡我覺得這一些東西我現在看到目前的查案裡面感覺都不是很明確就像你要動用這個強制力的時候他的前提竟然只是我們有決議就可以了沒有實質的法律的要件跟這個規範後面的救濟的程序在哪裡"},{"start":4291.251,"end":4314.814,"text":"所以我們是認為說目前的這個法案如果只是在職權形式裡面修個幾條顯然不足以承擔我們剛剛所說的你的權責相符你的制度設計的配套你在一個什麼樣的框架底下可以做什麼樣的事情甚至先決的這個訓練跟這個主持會議主持聽證的這個能力我覺得都付諸缺乳"},{"start":4315.839,"end":4326.124,"text":"所以我非常贊同說剛剛陳律師講我是這樣 這三天我一直講我們應該要一個更完整的專法去把我們所發現提出來的種種的問題"},{"start":4327.714,"end":4352.771,"text":"都把它釐清了就好像法院要開庭他有一部完整的訴訟法他所審理的對象他有一部完整的實體法不管是民法刑法他搭配的訴訟法有這樣子的一個比較明確完整的這樣的規範體系我們的調查權才不會變成是雖然有了牙齒但是可能這個老虎會亂咬人"},{"start":4353.351,"end":4354.632,"text":"臺灣科技法學會 劉尚志理事長"},{"start":4395.883,"end":4419.37,"text":"主席及各位先進大家好我今天的報告是比較偏向於跟企業有關的營業秘密方面因為長久以來我們在科學園區旁邊生活了很久科技法學會通常處理的也是跟科技發展還有企業發展有關的核心競爭力所以今天我想我的觀點會比較偏向於"},{"start":4422.311,"end":4422.591,"text":"銀葉秘密的保護"},{"start":4445.757,"end":4462.353,"text":"我們昨天聽到有一位先進提到國家必要的時候可以沒收人民的專利權可以沒收人民的隱隱秘密通通揭露我想我們是民主國家通常似乎不適於拿中共的方式來類比我們國家有這麼大的權力"},{"start":4463.774,"end":4490.311,"text":"這是我們第一個民主國家的人民的財產權的維護是憲法裡面所公然保障的一之一現在我們所講的跟智慧財產權相關的專利營業秘密著作商標就科技方面來講當然是專利跟營業秘密比較重要但是如果我們知道一般在台灣的科技業界或是台灣的整個競爭力是以製造為主的"},{"start":4490.831,"end":4500.657,"text":"所以就法律的保護要件來講的話其實營業秘密的保護比較更為廣泛所以各位可能聽過臺積電說過他今天的無形資產90%是營業秘密10%是專利所以以公開的資訊來講這個專利是公開的資訊營業秘密基本上是不公開那營業秘密不公開的時候他又分兩種"},{"start":4515.947,"end":4516.087,"text":"技術性資訊非技術性資訊"},{"start":4534.388,"end":4557.578,"text":"包括商業的機密包括一般的他跟誰有合資的行為或是他投資了哪些東西呢像這些東西都是也是屬於營業秘密的範疇之一所以我們看到營業秘密通常它有三個要件第一個當然就是秘密性第二個就是經濟價值第三個合理的保密措施但就我們實務上來說各位知道這個"},{"start":4559.038,"end":4582.905,"text":"臺灣過去發展了有好幾百個每一年的到好幾百件的這個營業秘密的案件在法院審理那法院的審理相對成了困難我相信檢調機關在處理的時候也有高度的困難其中很重要一個因素就是這營業秘密要構成營業秘密它在整個措施上要非常要求非常的嚴格第一個它一定要有制度它要公司裡面有這樣的相關的辦法"},{"start":4584.025,"end":4584.245,"text":"人員培訓：資訊安全"},{"start":4603.968,"end":4631.159,"text":"他一定要有合理的資訊安全的保護他還可以說合理的保密措施他對於空間的管理誰可以進去某些空間才可以誰不能進去哪些空間有權責的在什麼時候才可以下載資料還可以影印資料像這些所謂的這個合理的保密措施就企業的這個影印保護來講的話已經是很高的成本了所以企業願意做這樣的事情相對於就對他的資訊的重要性是很夠的"},{"start":4632.439,"end":4650.951,"text":"第三個我們來看一下我們今天所談到的國家安全我們看國家安全法裡面關於所保護的標的核心就是國家核心關鍵技術之隱滅秘密我們這一條不客氣的說基本上是抄襲美國或模仿美國的經濟間諜法而來的"},{"start":4653.152,"end":4669.638,"text":"但美國經濟電話比我們好的地方﹖或者在執行力比較強的地方﹖它只要是營業秘密就可以了它是不是國家核心關鍵技術無關只要今天來取得這個營業秘密的資訊是跟外國政府相關的單位都算是經濟間諜"},{"start":4671.118,"end":4690.348,"text":"那麼就這個來講的話,我們今天所講的國家的這個安全法、國安法裡面所講國家核心關鍵技術營業秘密,其實重點還在營業秘密,為什麼?因為營業秘密一個範圍比較廣泛,第二個我剛剛說過,它包含技術性跟非技術性那營業秘密呢,我們呢,初步就可以這樣分了"},{"start":4691.368,"end":4712.067,"text":"他有這個國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密這當然就是國安法裡面所規定的但是也有非國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密譬如說我們種這個蘭花已經培育出非常多的種類可能我們的蘭花到國外去參展的時候被別人竊取了"},{"start":4712.908,"end":4737.178,"text":"像這種東西可能不是國家的核心關鍵技術但是它一定是一個企業或者是一個經營者裡面它非常關鍵的營業秘密那第三個當然是非技術性的資訊的營業秘密就是我剛剛說過的除了技術性以外還有非技術第四個就比較屬於我們公部門像這個國防機密、軍事情報公部門有公部門管理法還有國家機密保護法"},{"start":4738.158,"end":4758.783,"text":"所以就營業秘密來講的話,牽涉到幾個項目,絕對不只有國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密所以我們在立法的過程裡面,在保護營業秘密的過程裡面,其實對這一點也要特別重視要不然他就顯然就侵害了這個人民的財產權,顯然也侵害了我們國家整個科技跟產業的競爭力"},{"start":4760.743,"end":4776.088,"text":"所以就這個關係來講的話,我們知道這個業命裡面包含類型居然這麼多種的話,所以我們會提出來保護的方式,如果他真的在立法院或者其他單位想要知道的時候,他至少有三個方式,一個是事前"},{"start":4777.128,"end":4791.242,"text":"事前就要先判斷今天所要求傳喚人的來往．或是要作證的．他所對於可能揭露的移民的等級．所有人還有影響關係的重大性"},{"start":4792.062,"end":4813.051,"text":"必要的時候人民或者民間企業是可以拒絕提出這些移民秘密來的因為它的重要性不下於整個公司的生存發展跟整個國家產業競爭力所以就事前來講的話我個人覺得還是要一定程度維護人民拒絕提供移民秘密在議會裡面"},{"start":4814.554,"end":4843.032,"text":"第二,在會議室中的秘密會議,不過這次在民進黨所提的資料裡面,我個人看到增加了很多在各位的175頁裡面,立法委員、列席人員及會場員工在修正條文第47條第三項禁止攜帶任何可供超錄影音、擴音、錄音、攝影、錄影、傳輸及通訊的器材,並簽具保密切結"},{"start":4845.39,"end":4874.449,"text":"我們立法院也是有時候有進步的不能說他們都沒有進步至少他對於美國翻譯美國的這些相關的工具跟技巧其實都反映進來了所以中間的這個部分是不能夠有任何這樣的行為但是這是事中的狀況那麼還有事後的狀況就是說不能在任何地方以不法的方式取得因為可能他在現場或許某些程度是他可以取得但是他不可以揭露或者利用"},{"start":4876.23,"end":4900.936,"text":"及情節的大小要處理所以就這個175頁裡面今天我們的關係文書裡面175頁那麼第48條那第三項關於立法委員列席人員及會場員工不得以任何方式記錄或洩漏機密內容原則上當然是有努力在寫不過如果我們按照營業秘密法裡面所保護營業秘密的是不法的"},{"start":4901.596,"end":4904.597,"text":"不法取得、洩漏及利用"},{"start":4921.324,"end":4949.358,"text":"所以在事前事中事後能夠做這樣的規範而且事前有一定程度的允許我們的人民團體有拒絕提供必要性的營業秘密的權利那麼最後我還必須說明在今天的關係文書裡面有的地方都寫得不錯但是也有的地方可能稍微改進一點就好了比如說我們第48頁所提出來第47條"},{"start":4952.214,"end":4967.228,"text":"第二項關於前項詢問應有調查委員3人以上在場其今立法院院會決議者相關人員處於國防外交機密理由也就是他現在所"},{"start":4969.87,"end":4993.406,"text":"所列入的主要就是公部門的國防外交機密但對私部門的這個營業秘密我個人覺得如果可以加進的話可能對整個營業秘密保護不管是公部門或私部門的這些跟國家發展相關的安全都有一定程度的作用我個人覺得可以除了國防外交以外還有關於私部門的這個營業秘密的部分也可以列入這是我一個簡單的建議 謝謝各位"},{"start":4997.751,"end":5002.736,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉理事長接下來我們請前監察委員長 桂美委員主席"},{"start":5010.843,"end":5032.768,"text":"主席好 大家好我想時間非常緊迫我就針對幾個重點跟大家交換意見第一個問題就是 這個議題實際上從我比較年輕到現在已經吵了十幾年了 還在吵歸咎原因它一定有非常特殊的原因存在"},{"start":5034.384,"end":5062.579,"text":"後來我自己大致過濾了一下我發現不管是在我們用藍綠很奇怪我們要保持專業客觀不管是在誰執政的時候只要府院是同黨這個案子就會被擱置這個時空太特別了因為這一次的立法院結構沒有一個黨過半數所以我覺得這是一個天賜良緣"},{"start":5063.94,"end":5079.023,"text":"如果還不把握我相信我們這幾天的公聽會折騰了一大堆專家講到最後我相信還是泡沫一場毫無貢獻那所以呢第二個要去思考的問題"},{"start":5081.144,"end":5105.218,"text":"為什麼府院同黨的時候這個案子永遠過不了我説的同黨就是國會的二分之一多數黨跟政府是同黨它永遠過不了為什麼所以我們一定要從學理跟實務上去找原因真正的原因是什麼呢真正的原因國會的監督已經不是靠少數的反對黨"},{"start":5107.196,"end":5120.165,"text":"我們的民主政治已經淪為yes no誰要分之一誰就是最後的權利那這個絕對是民主國家的災難因為我們民主要的不是這個"},{"start":5121.806,"end":5143.394,"text":"我們民主要的不是國會也不是政府才是焦點我們要的是人民的權利那所以重點來了今天為什麼這個議題又再度被翻出來我想大家頂起立場仔細去思考一個問題人民知的權利誰有能力告訴他我自己公職幾度來回我的專業是學者"},{"start":5150.41,"end":5159.422,"text":"可是呢 我發現我在公職的時候 太多的資訊我可以掌握太多的弊案我可以查起可是當我離開公職 很多資訊我看不到 聽不到"},{"start":5163.117,"end":5180.185,"text":"那我請問大家以我做過監委我現在回到平民很多資訊我當時可以掌握知道政府做錯我可以去彈劾我可以去監督今天我什麼都不知道我知道的跟所有老百姓一模一樣高端為什麼那麼貴我不知道臭蛋這麼多銷毀了這麼這麼多"},{"start":5190.26,"end":5197.105,"text":"為什麼?我就算知道了我沒有著力點請問誰給我們著力點?監督政府是靠什麼?不是只靠一個國會他靠五個院耶那但是請大家冷靜下來思考真正掌握全民納稅錢真正掌握所有的重大財源的叫做什麼院?"},{"start":5218.598,"end":5221.72,"text":"他叫做真正的行政體系啊那所以請大家仔細思考行政體系龐大的預算我隨便舉例我們的潛藏負債多少將近20兆我們一年的政府總支出多少5兆左右"},{"start":5242.545,"end":5265.883,"text":"請問你 特別預算要不要通過特別條例來定要特別條例的特別預算有沒有上限它的借貸算不算是赤字我想大家做過公職我們後面的這些專家 在場的學者都非常清楚我們國內的赤字是怎麼算的"},{"start":5267.168,"end":5285.555,"text":"特別預算 特別條例 排除了預算法 排除了公共債務法 排除了財政紀律法的重要條文他甚至科目可以留用 甚至他的舉債 他的赤字算不算在我們總之書的赤字裡面我們怎麼可以這樣搞呢 誰來監督呢"},{"start":5292.313,"end":5312.784,"text":"當一個弱勢的國會他幾乎調查權只能調查瑣瑣碎碎的時候這是老百姓的權利嚴重受損他知的權利在哪裡請大家冷靜思考我們要的是維護人民知的權利所以我們才要聽證調查好 那問題來了聽證調查權"},{"start":5320.299,"end":5323.04,"text":"我舉德國基本法我們這邊非常多的各個領域的學者"},{"start":5346.943,"end":5372.604,"text":"你如果說私人領域可不可以介入呢你可以舉美國最近的幾個大企業案但是你如果問我個人我會認為就算介入私領域一定要綁到人民真正的正義基本權涉及到重大公義的時候他才可以介入而不是一個葉子鬧絕對不能碰很多的大的企業富可敵國請問"},{"start":5376.038,"end":5396.274,"text":"美國的總統是不是企業界來的 過去 有啊當他有權力 他又有所謂的利益的時候你怎麼去監督他我們政治學上 三個社會上最主要的資源一個叫Power 一個叫什麼Privilege一個叫什麼Honor 榮譽我們何曾把榮譽放到我們的社會價值上"},{"start":5407.788,"end":5421.412,"text":"當我們每天都在爭民主義的時候我們怎麼能夠相信哪個機關是聖人沒有一個機關是聖人疫情期間 總統最高的元首745天 這不是我說的這是據媒體報導不開記者會當你國會也沒有辦法"},{"start":5429.898,"end":5437.995,"text":"自詢當你媒體也沒有辦法接觸請問人民知的權利契於何地"},{"start":5440.27,"end":5462.524,"text":"我覺得大家一定要冷靜思考我剛剛講的負債嚴重憑良心說我們都有子孫都有後代都有學生都有年輕人這社會是要交替的可是呢當我看到我們的特別預算不斷地膨脹借貸不斷地膨脹事實上我是非常憂心的"},{"start":5464.022,"end":5486.579,"text":"你德國的基本法它是憲法的位階你看人家怎麼定的我這個有提供書面我相信將來會留下記錄基本法的115條第一項它是把收支原則它本身依貸款的收入它是納進去的"},{"start":5488.44,"end":5507.355,"text":"所以你收支的平衡不是像我們特別預算喔把它排除在預算法23條重要條文之外喔也不是我們好朋友訂了一個財政紀律法財政紀律法的歷史這個時間非常短財政紀律法的第一條多諷刺啊"},{"start":5508.342,"end":5530.669,"text":"第一條叫做基於臨機預算我是憑印象大家自己去查第一條是要落實臨機預算的精神什麼叫臨機預算請問我們政府現在用的是臨機預算嗎當然不是啊那你通過那個法要基於臨機預算那我們全部規定來重新用rational choice"},{"start":5531.63,"end":5531.77,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5547.796,"end":5574.521,"text":"民主政治有一些基本原則這個叫憲政原理而憲政原理不是台灣獨有各國都有我昨天做了一個功課我去法學資料檢索資料庫查了一下所謂的Justice 正義在我們從中華民國一直到現在800多號的釋憲這麼有限的憲法法院的判決裡面"},{"start":5575.961,"end":5598.87,"text":"解釋人的正義只出現了7次而7次裡面大部分是跟稅跟錢有關的其他不叫正義嗎我們的正義是要讓人民有該知道的權利而這個正義絕對不是永遠只建立在立法院的多數必須尊重當府院不同黨少數意見也該被聽到同黨"},{"start":5600.49,"end":5619.84,"text":"如果他不做真正的supervision工作的時候他的少數黨必須要有發聲的管道這叫做社會正義我們從很多的例子裡面可以看到憲政基本精神的落實才是我們今天討論的主題 謝謝好 謝謝我們長官美長委員接下來有請我們鍾嘉斌鍾委員"},{"start":5642.755,"end":5658.541,"text":"謝謝專委員代理主持那我接下來就很快的呢就今天的公聽會進行5分鐘來說明大家看一下這一本就是今天的會議資料這裡面呢今天交務委員會審查作為公聽會依據的有28案"},{"start":5660.45,"end":5684.642,"text":"這是28案決大部分是國民黨部分的民眾黨所提的提什麼呢提立法院職權刑事法提立法院組織法裡面只有少數的三個案子不是國民兩黨提的國民黨跟民眾黨提的是由民進黨提出的立法委員行為法民進黨提的立法院的議事規則規範什麼內容規範在上螢幕上"},{"start":5687.489,"end":5711.105,"text":"因為當我們立法院職權行使要擴張要強調調查權的時候有沒有相對應的權責相符可以我們守密的義務當你調查可以調查機密的時候調查者有沒有守密的義務所以我們看到賴立榮等委員在22案跟28案分別都對於議事規則都有將他訂定參加會議秘密會人的行為規範對於立法委員本身要具以規範"},{"start":5712.006,"end":5732.723,"text":"在後面我們的參考資料當中民進黨團也負責任的提出了四個案其中兩個案也是一樣立法委員行為法跟立法院的議事規則我們目前討論的當我們擴大或落實立法院的調查權的同時國會的調查權的同時我們要注意到什麼我們看到下一頁這些機密有沒有涉及到損及到"},{"start":5733.584,"end":5749.24,"text":"人民 民間私人的營業秘密有沒有影響到我們國家安全的機密所以還有兩個法除了會議議事規則除了立法委員行為法要刻意立法委員有守密的義務違反者要刻意刑責之外"},{"start":5749.921,"end":5769.616,"text":"抱歉我要說的不是我們幾位委員所說的一種自律也不是立法院的紀律委員會的一個處分而是刑責我們看到在目前國家機密保法的第26條下列人員應該經過機關首長的核准這些是觸及到國家機密的"},{"start":5770.997,"end":5799.246,"text":"請問立法院的秘密會議：會不會有觸及到國家機密：有啊!遣件國照是不是國家機密：是啊!立法委員可不可以要求看啊：可以啊!審預算看不到內容：看得到啊!立法委員看到之後還有誰看得到：立法院的工作人員根據國家機密保護法：這些接觸到機密的人員必須出境的時候：要向機關首長的核准立法院的機關首長是誰：就是立法院院長"},{"start":5800.146,"end":5826.94,"text":"所以未來當立法委員行使調查權涉及到機密的時候涉及到秘密會議的時候參與秘密會議的立法委員本人以及會場的工作人員依照國家秘密法文法第26條的原則他要出境之前必須取得立法院院長的同意要不要修法要誰的責任本院的責任請看下一頁除此之外我們目前最大的境外敵對勢力是哪裡"},{"start":5828.442,"end":5857.243,"text":"不用外求就在兩三百公里遠的地方叫做中國中華人民共和國在我們兩岸人民關係條例當中進入大陸地區要怎麼樣要審查會審查許可包括國安局法務部跟陸委會和相關機關組成的審查會請問剛剛所說的如果立法委員在參與進行調查權涉及到的秘密會議當中有觸及到會損害到國家利益的時候"},{"start":5858.565,"end":5869.325,"text":"當這些人要去兩岸進行經常平民的交流的時候要不要經過審查出境前要不要報告回國要不要報告所以這也是兩岸條例第9條"},{"start":5870.782,"end":5887.638,"text":"第三項要面對處理的所以今天當我們談到立法院要強化職權 國會要有調查權 要有聽證權要能夠要求公務機關有不得拒絕 只要是基於立法相關核心持權要進行的不只文件調閱 這些公務機關必須來說明"},{"start":5891.081,"end":5920.032,"text":"包括私人企業 人民團體 中藥好像也有協助調查的義務如果涉及到國家的利益國家的秘密私人的營業秘密那所有語文這些秘密的包括立法院本人需不需要我們未來也在國家機密保護法當中我們在兩岸人民關係條例當中做必要的強化我們不斷地強調包括昨天的公聽會也有包括不分各政黨所推薦的專家學者代表都提到了"},{"start":5920.692,"end":5923.379,"text":"其實最重要的當我們行使權力的"},{"start":5924.261,"end":5924.621,"text":"以上,我們就這一點做一個補充,謝謝"},{"start":5954.148,"end":5955.991,"text":"好 謝謝總裁編委員接下來有請我們 劉書斌教授"},{"start":5973.224,"end":5990.601,"text":"主席在場的學者先進還有政府官員委員大家早安我是東吳大學政治系的劉書斌那因為是出生在政治學界那可能跟剛剛大部分的也許是有法律背景的學者的"},{"start":5991.281,"end":5991.301,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6005.998,"end":6006.198,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6023.66,"end":6047.674,"text":"提升到國會的監督能量第二個部分就是說因為我們的這個調查權目前在國會只有輔助調查權還有是文件調閱權這一部分那我們需要監督到政府的時候就必須像今天就透過這個公聽會來去搜集各種的資訊那我們可以從研究其他各國的一個意見來"},{"start":6048.715,"end":6048.895,"text":"立法院"},{"start":6065.247,"end":6087.669,"text":"在行使這種調查權的時候是不是都沒有一個界限好 那我就提供現在有的這個界限當然還是我們還有剛剛鍾嘉賓委員有提到的相關還可以再去做補充的部分那第四個部分就是今天另外一個重點在於說如果要去調查的這個對象呢涉及到事務事務 或者叫國家安全的時候呢或者是有關於商業"},{"start":6088.43,"end":6088.751,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6102.349,"end":6121.832,"text":"我們知道立法院很重要的一個憲法職權就是要去監督控制還有要去問責行政機關這個問責行政機關的情況之下我們可以知道的是剛好在今年的時候有一個很重要的就是在2月1號"},{"start":6123.514,"end":6138.185,"text":"新報道的這樣的第11屆的立法委員他們是三黨不過半的也就符合剛剛 蔣規美委員 前監委他所說的過去的情況之下如果一個單獨的長期的這種執政立法院的多數是跟"},{"start":6139.286,"end":6142.927,"text":"總統的黨籍是一樣的時候就會出現到他長期的會有這種貪腐的狀況或者是他沒有辦法去出境到連任的政府那這種情況之下就必須要去具備讓立法委員他的職權要在調查跟監督職權上面要增加"},{"start":6158.732,"end":6161.635,"text":"行政院跟立法院在對應的關係上面的時候對應到他有個憲法執行在立法院的時候他就是必須要去對立法院負責這是他的一個憲法義務"},{"start":6173.669,"end":6202.045,"text":"那對這憲法義務的時候當立法院對於行政院的政府官員做出來要做聽證然後調查的這樣的一個權限的時候呢他必須應該要是人要到然後呢人要到而且他必須要不得有這個說謊隱匿的這個狀況那甚至他必須要應該是要提供提供正確的資訊然後不得拖延這種狀況那這樣才是真正叫做"},{"start":6202.885,"end":6226.492,"text":"實現了行政院對立法院負責的憲法義務另外我們再看看說目前在各國的情況之下面對這種 剛剛所說的行政院有對立法院負責的憲法義務的時候那它應該是怎麼樣規範的我們現在看到的是我現在引用的這個部分就是英國的部分它就是在他們的國會行政監督"},{"start":6227.133,"end":6228.155,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整"},{"start":6238.447,"end":6243.531,"text":"法庭的相應職責 包括有監禁到兩年的情況在德國的掌櫃委員有提到國會的行使當中也在國會調查的委員廢法當中也有提到准用到刑事訴訟法的規定 大家可以看到我的PPT這邊不只有罰還之外 還有得命強制的具體"},{"start":6263.248,"end":6287.779,"text":"那我們再看看下一頁在法國的部分跟我們體制是比較相近的齁這就出現到他國會職權行使法當中有的相關規定他說呢應該如果他無正當理由要證人拒絕做配合資訊的印訊的時候呢或者是拒絕配合印訊提供的相關文件或資料的時候呢他是怎麼樣他是得以處以兩年以下有期徒刑跟7500元的這樣的一個歐元齁這樣的一個罰款"},{"start":6290.14,"end":6290.16,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6301.383,"end":6328.244,"text":"然後川普總統的法律顧問等等也是被依照美國的法律他就說有藐慰國會自由自由的情況甚至有被判刑這樣的情況然後甚至得以賠款100美元到10萬塊美金的這樣的一個罰款那我們知道這樣子就是說他如果違反協助調查的這個義務的時候就會有這樣的一個情況那我們現在再繼續往下看的時候再包括說那立法院他"},{"start":6330.592,"end":6353.39,"text":"到底要行使調查權的時候有沒有界限這個部分剛才有些學者專家就有提到這邊部分那我想要提供證據就在於說因為我們本身在除了憲法的除了本身憲法的立法院他是監督國會行政局員之外呢最重要在我們的立法院的職權行使法當中包括的是"},{"start":6355.291,"end":6361.057,"text":"包括的是質詢還有在所謂的文件調閱權那另外的我們甚至再到4至585號這一部分的時候就有輔助調查權的行使了那後來的4至633號解釋當中他都有提到說立法院在行使這些質詢的時候很重要的情況是怎麼樣他必須要遵守我們剛才所說現在我在黃色裡面所存在一般的法治國原則"},{"start":6377.794,"end":6393.076,"text":"就是他必須遵照人權的保障權力的分立大家之前常說說他會侵犯到檢察院或是說司法院的職權那這邊權力分立是必須要去遵送的然後另外還有比例原則跟一般的法治國上面的法律明確性的這個原則"},{"start":6393.797,"end":6398.299,"text":"在4-729號解釋的這個當中也很清楚的說明包括是說如果對在檢查機關在做偵查期間所做的案件是不容許去調閱的那這個都很清楚"},{"start":6414.525,"end":6432.91,"text":"好 那當然我們就必須再把這些部分呢 再把它列入到說現在正在修法的階段尤其是非常好的實際是三黨不過半的情況之下 沒有一個政黨他必須他可以壟斷這個權力的時候呢 這就是很重要那另外一個部分就是剛才 宗嘉斌委員也有稍微有提到立法院的這個行為法當中其實也有"},{"start":6439.092,"end":6460.189,"text":"這個人力規範還有紀律的這個部分那等一下我讓大家看到下一頁的部分就再說它是屬於國會自律的內容包括我們看到的其實都有規範只是可能沒有做第一個就是不遵守主席依規定所做的這個才是或者是大家很害怕的情況是不是辱罵及涉及人身攻擊的這種言詞還有呢包括這個脅迫他人做意識的這個作為或不作為等等的"},{"start":6467.515,"end":6485.7,"text":"這些部分其實都有相關的規定還包括說依法行使詞權對議事人員做不當的要求或干擾這些部分都是有規範的但是所以如果有違範的情況之下會發生什麼事情就是在我現在看到的就是說呢他可以依照這個"},{"start":6489.111,"end":6491.873,"text":"立法委員的行為法當中送到紀律委員會去進行但是大家不要忘記了前面剛才有說他其實也有司法責任的包括的是說違反到"},{"start":6505.203,"end":6527.037,"text":"有關於這個秘密的這個秘密的外洩這個洩漏秘密洩漏機密這些事情還包括民刑這些部分還有包括行政責任這個部分那這個本身在像國家積木保護法當中呢其實東東都有國家積木保護法當中東東都有而且在議事規則上面其實都講得非常清楚那當然他更有政治責任如果像上次的出現到國會的這個國防委員會這個"},{"start":6532.04,"end":6532.72,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6549.306,"end":6566.234,"text":"有關於到下面這個重點在於說如果我們要監督就因為行使調查跟聽證權的時候呢涉及到可能要國家安全或是說有些國家或是廠商的企業他們的核心利益的時候那怎麼辦呢其實這部分的時候定義必須要清楚國家安全是什麼"},{"start":6567.434,"end":6588.145,"text":"這邊我們如果用到立法院的職權行使法當中他其實有在質詢當中他有提到說如果是有要避免國防外交那我再加上說有涉及到經濟的部分那有明顯的立即危險的時候就可以呈現出來就可以當然大家也是必須要譬如說剛才有提到的像高端疫苗的這個事情或是說巴西蛋的這個狀況那抱歉我再給我大概30分鐘結束"},{"start":6591.326,"end":6591.566,"text":"秘密會議秘密會議秘密會議"},{"start":6611.761,"end":6611.941,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6632.703,"end":6659.676,"text":"他做了必須要責任那這個責任是必須要把他苛責的所以秘密外洩這種情況剛才我所說的除了國會自律之外還有就是要送紀律委員會當然就是原來有了司法的比如說防害秘密罪或者是說商業名其他當中所所損害商業營業利益這些重點事情通通都必須他事實上是有責任的那尤其是在這個責任相關當中就是說本法沒有規定的話就是就引用其他相關的法律以下引用都沒有問題但更重要還有政治責任"},{"start":6660.336,"end":6687.509,"text":"這些部分都是很重要的好 謝謝那當然就是民主政治就是必須要靠監督的力量去行事那希望說我們的政府就變成一個年齡政府 謝謝謝謝 謝謝劉教授我們這邊予以宣告那因為待會行政機關代表列席者有需要先離開的我會請他們先做回應那接下來在黃國昌委員發言後我們就請陸委會梁副指委先做回應 謝謝那如果其他機關有需要也跟我講好 請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":6702.544,"end":6721.238,"text":"非常感謝這麼多的學者專家來參與立法院第三次針對有關於國會聽證調查制度所召開的公聽會相信各位寶貴的意見都會記載在立法院公報裡面供本院全力的委員還有社會大眾做參考"},{"start":6722.899,"end":6739.033,"text":"今天討論到一個非常重要的題目立法院在行使職權的時候怎麼樣去防止機密外洩這當然是一個重要而嚴肅的問題目前相關的法制上面剛剛劉書斌老師已經有從法律責任"},{"start":6742.358,"end":6769.464,"text":"自律的責任以及政治的責任三個層面來加以解析但我今天要跟大家分享的一個觀點是說在我國立法院行使職權的過程當中最經常出現的其實不是機密的洩漏而是行政機關自意的自意的用機密當作理由來遮蟲"},{"start":6771.19,"end":6795.327,"text":"來掩飾違法濫權的事實讓立法委員沒有辦法有效監督我為什麼會這樣說呢過去我接過太多行政機關回覆給我上面的公文都打一個密字我就順便請教他們請問你們是依照國家機密保護法哪一條的規定在上面打密"},{"start":6796.311,"end":6822.178,"text":"他說這跟國家機密保護法沒有關係我們有一個公文書的製作手冊這個公文書的製作手冊上面賦予我們行政機關覺得是機密的時候可以在上面打一個密這個叫做一般公務機密這樣的回覆真是令人大開眼界我看以實際的例子來說明會比較清楚一點"},{"start":6823.26,"end":6840.373,"text":"這是一個什麼寒呢去年的時候本院上一屆立委陳婉蕙開始在追蹤有關於台研綠能所涉及的弊案在沒有得到經濟部同意之下前台研綠能的董事長陳啟玉"},{"start":6842.944,"end":6869.464,"text":"他可能因為關係非常的好他大膽到找了四家名股來參與台研綠能那接下來發生了各式各樣神奇的事情其中包括了裡面有個公司他是個土開公司後來專門成為台研綠能在外面的時候進行土開作業跟其他電業商合作"},{"start":6870.265,"end":6894.283,"text":"一個收入非常豐厚的手套而那個時候董事長他的家人還在這個鴻徽來工作其他三個參與的名股都陸陸續續在台研綠能整個拓展的過程當中得到非常多的好處那因此陳恆惠委員"},{"start":6895.524,"end":6917.17,"text":"他針對這件事情提出質詢了以後要求我們的經濟部進行調查經濟部回覆給他一個行政調查報告在左手邊大家可以看到當初經濟部回給他的調查報告上面打一個密字就是我剛剛所講的那個狀況代表這是秘密"},{"start":6918.493,"end":6935.784,"text":"這不能對外洩漏還有解密的期間那就讓大家覺得非常的困惑這到底是一個什麼樣子的秘密呢那但是我是一個念法律的人行政機關有那個臉皮在上面打密那我就尊重"},{"start":6936.704,"end":6962.423,"text":"所以我就任了以後我就再發一個函給經濟部要求經濟部就去年所做的那個行政調查報告在回覆陳晚會委員的報告當中的那個行政調查報告請他提供這個就是右手邊大家看到的公文我上個前4月3號拿到這個公文的時候我仔細的拜讀上面沒有密了"},{"start":6963.447,"end":6965.769,"text":"一模一樣的報告一模一樣的內容一個有密一個沒有密請問標準在哪裡"},{"start":6981.034,"end":7008.853,"text":"當一個國會議員在監督這種濫用國家的資源圖利自己人的爛事的時候要進行監督啊他拿到報告他不能講因為上面打了一個密還好我這次拿到的公文他上面沒有打密所以我看完了整份報告了以後我事實上覺得根本就應該要找經濟部針對這臭不可聞的弊案到國會來進行專案報告"},{"start":7012.877,"end":7027.675,"text":"這件事情台灣社會沒有什麼人知道這就是我們現在在立法院進行監督的日常那第二個狀況2022年我們去年的時候在炒的是巴西的雞蛋"},{"start":7029.099,"end":7050.273,"text":"當我開始在追蹤這件事情的時候我發現我們2022年就開始在進口雞蛋我就累了以後我在2月20號發函請農業部提供2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額採購的數量廠商的名稱歷次進來的時間跟數量我從2月20號開始問問到今天問到今天"},{"start":7059.977,"end":7079.981,"text":"我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我們的農業部告訴我們的是說這個涉及到廠商的機密這個就讓我百思不得其解了用我們納稅的錢在前年的時候去買了雞蛋"},{"start":7082.135,"end":7107.158,"text":"國會不能知道社會大眾也不能知道你雞蛋是跟誰買的買了多少錢都不能知道這是什麼天大的商業秘密啊揭露這個廠商的名稱請問到底是危害了什麼國家安全請問到底是侵害了什麼營業秘密用秘密當作藉口"},{"start":7108.376,"end":7134.921,"text":"把一切成為黑箱運作陽光照不進去立法委員不能問不能看的藉口這個是台灣的民主嗎這個是我們現在的政府在面對國會監督的時候應該有的態度嗎最後這兩天啊開始在討論監察院跟立法院的權責"},{"start":7136.4,"end":7141.609,"text":"說在監察院沒有廢紙以前我們不可以去侵害監察院的權責"},{"start":7143.198,"end":7170.83,"text":"聽到這樣的論調又讓我想起來這件事情其實在2012年我們一樣本院針對立法院怎麼樣去行使我們的調查權跟聽證權的時候非常多的學者講得很清楚了特別是林濁水前委員我們民進黨的理論大師國會改革的權威者他說講出來的話陣容乏愧"},{"start":7172.025,"end":7182.853,"text":"他說有人認為立法院的調查權跟監察院行使的調查權有爭議我認為這完全是威權體制下專制政黨誤導社會的一個論點"},{"start":7187.216,"end":7208.076,"text":"除了林卓水以外李俊逸也說了調查權本來就是立法院的職權我們現在沒有辦法透過修憲改變的時候我們至少應該要把國會的調查權以及實施調查權會用到的聽證制度給建立起來這個是在修憲以前"},{"start":7209.315,"end":7230.476,"text":"不用修憲非檢察院李俊逸委員提出這麼精闢的見解主席站起來了我必須要結束了最後借20秒最後讓我最敬佩的就是尤美女委員她2012年的時候說得最好她說當某個政黨執政後她就不願意充實立法委員的職權"},{"start":7233.687,"end":7247.453,"text":"這是12年前說的話在2024年的今天再次拜讀令人震攏發聵非常非常的佩服謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們就先請陸委會梁文傑副主委來這邊來請副主委先做回應 謝謝"},{"start":7260.936,"end":7282.392,"text":"梁副主委回應之後我們繼續請舒子喬教授發言主席各位專家學者還有各位朋友大家好我就陸委會的執掌的部分我來對這個問題稍微表達一下我們陸委會的看法"},{"start":7284.04,"end":7309.487,"text":"我們對於國會的監督、調查、聽證等等我們並沒有特別的意見但是我們對陸委會來說我們所關心的是監督、調查、聽證之後所接觸到的機密是不是會有外洩的問題那就兩岸人民關係條例來講兩岸條例第9條"},{"start":7312.915,"end":7341.536,"text":"我們是有對特定人員復錄管制的去大陸的要管制那但是我們現在管制的對象大概是這樣第一個政務人員第二個直轄市長第三個縣市長然後接下來是比較廣泛的就是說涉及國家安全利益或機密業務之人員大概是這樣"},{"start":7342.901,"end":7353.987,"text":"那所謂直轄市長跟縣市長老實講他們的會接觸到機密的可能性遠遠比不上"},{"start":7356.789,"end":7385.574,"text":"大院的各位委員但是當初為什麼會把直轄市長跟縣市長列入而沒有把立法委員列入這個在30幾年前的事情我們並不是很了解但是至少立法委員或立法院在接觸到國防外交機密的時候他是屬於涉及國家安全利益或機密業務之人員"},{"start":7387.289,"end":7411.107,"text":"在我們的看法是這樣子那有一個所以當涉及到國家安全利益或機密業務的話照講立法院就應該要呈報或是提列哪些人有涉及到就貴院的這個所處理的業務上譬如說"},{"start":7412.318,"end":7441.248,"text":"立法院有召開秘密會議就國防外交事項會召開秘密會議也有審查機密預算但是到目前為止從我們的資料來看沒有立法院沒有提報過任何需要這個附路管制的人員那跟貴院比較功能類似的監察院"},{"start":7442.589,"end":7466.977,"text":"監察院其實他也有調查權那他也會接觸到在調查過程之中也會接觸到很多的國防外交機密所以監察院他向來是會提報那監察院目前依據兩岸條例他提報的是26人"},{"start":7469.356,"end":7490.306,"text":"離退職的還要管制的未滿3年都要管制離退職的有12人徵務人員16人那國家機密依照國家機密保護法所提列的大概有44個人那監察院的作業方式就是說"},{"start":7491.678,"end":7520.13,"text":"只要公文列為機密等級以上的承辦人員還要核定機密的人員都會列入那譬如說他們的包括監察委員包括監察院的調查處包括監察院的業務處還有監察院的外交國防委員會的工作人員都會列入"},{"start":7521.946,"end":7548.452,"text":"所以從陸委會的角度來說我們不會去對立法院到底最後所審議出來的國會聽證調查決的範圍到哪邊我們並沒有特別的意見但是我們只是希望說能夠同時也制定一下"},{"start":7549.335,"end":7567.39,"text":"制定一下這個關於立法院在觸碰到國防外交機密的時候他的出國管制以及賦入管制這個部分我們認為是可能要做一些比較加強的規定以上 謝謝"},{"start":7569.602,"end":7598.628,"text":"好 謝謝梁副主委原來監察院在進行調查權過程接觸的國家機密他們有依兩岸人民關係條例去進行一個報告審查這個我們也開了眼界謝謝我們梁副主委我們與會的列席的機關代表如果有根據今天相關的提供有需要像國家機密保護法等等的也可以在待會回應的時候一起來回應接下來我們請舒子喬教授發言請"},{"start":7610.772,"end":7635.592,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好我是東吳政治系蘇紫橋我長期作為憲政體制跟憲法的一個研究者我長期關注立法院調查權的這個議題所以今天非常高興有這個機會能夠參加這個公聽會來討論立法院要如何落實這個立法院要如何立法來落實這個調查權"},{"start":7638.495,"end":7655.896,"text":"其實在大法官釋字585號解釋這個解釋文我們大家已經談了很多很多了就是說這解釋文是在20年前2004年就作出解釋文那這個解釋文在這個就已經很明確宣示說在我國的憲政體制裡面立法院是擁有調查權的"},{"start":7656.917,"end":7684.836,"text":"那在過去20年當中我們立法院始終沒有依據大法官解釋去把立法院的調查權去做立法的落實那這個很重要的一個原因這個剛剛前縣委長惠美老師也有提到就是說因為在過去我們從尤其從2008年以來我們總統行政院跟立法院多數都是同黨的在這樣的格局之下這個立法院"},{"start":7686.007,"end":7704.717,"text":"沒有這個 多數黨沒有這個動機去去監督透過調查群去監督行政院監督行政部門所以說在今年選後很難得出現就是說行政部門跟立法院多數不一次這樣的一個格局那我們可以說現在這個時刻是一個很難得開啟的一個機會之窗"},{"start":7708.119,"end":7725.893,"text":"終於有機會可以落實這個立法院調查權的行使程序所以我很期待就是說立法院這一次能夠真的透過立法把這個調查權能夠正式法制化那千萬不要在開了公聽會之後後來之後又不了了之啦這又功虧一簣這是我希望能夠很期待能夠避免的一個事情"},{"start":7727.383,"end":7745.085,"text":"那因為大法官解釋的效力等同於憲法所以我們其實真的今天已經不用去爭辯說是不是立法院有調查權立法院有調查權這個事情已經是毫無爭議的事情了那其實討論焦點就應該是放在說要如何在法制上讓立法院調查權的這個行使程序能夠那個定得更完善"},{"start":7746.086,"end":7747.107,"text":"更符合我國憲政體制權力分立原則"},{"start":7775.966,"end":7797.372,"text":"第一點就是說因為我國是五權憲五權體制五權憲法體制不論各位就在座對於考試院跟監察院的定位非考監這個議題是有什麼樣的立場可是我國目前的憲政架構還是個五權體制的一個架構所以也就是說我們立法權跟監察權兩者是有區分的"},{"start":7799.272,"end":7825.525,"text":"那大法官解釋在585號解釋也有提到就是立法院為了有效行使憲法所賦予是立法職權而享有調查權以主動獲取行使職權所需的資訊而立法院調查權是行使是立法院行使其憲法職權所所必要的輔助性權利我這邊特別強調就是說其實調查權是立法院行使憲法職權的輔助性權利而他的目的是為了要獲取"},{"start":7826.005,"end":7831.548,"text":"行與執權相關的資訊所謂輔助性權利就是說調查權這個權利本身它不是一種目的它是一種手段一種工具就好比說監察院它行使調查權目的是為了要輔助彈劾糾舉糾正權的行使因為要"},{"start":7847.698,"end":7872.813,"text":"彈劾某行政官員彈劾某官員所以要透過調查的手段來判斷說到底這個官員有沒有違法失職是不是需要彈劾以這樣的方式來觀察就是說我們在肯定立法院擁有調查權的這樣前提之下我們必須要審慎思考就是說根據這個憲法規定立法院他在擁有的職權裡面"},{"start":7875.194,"end":7898.096,"text":"到底是為什麼需要以調查權作為工具、作為手段那我們盤點一下憲法裡面的各種相關於立法院執權的相關規定立法院有法案提案權、有執行權、有人事同意權有聽取總統國情報告有對總統的談判跟罷免提案權這些相關的權利那就是說在有這些權利的這樣的前提之下那真的必須要去思考就是說"},{"start":7899.478,"end":7908.946,"text":"調查權行使人的這個作為手段他在輔助這些權力行使他要如何去去這個讓這些權力行使人有效的運作"},{"start":7910.998,"end":7933.285,"text":"總之第一點我要強調是說立法院調查權行使的目的是為了獲取行使職權所需要的資訊而不是為了要去整次關偵追查流弊整次關偵追查流弊是監察院的主要職權立法院當然是有監督行政院這樣的一個權力沒有錯可是我覺得這一個兩者之間的權力界限還是要區分出來了"},{"start":7933.965,"end":7956.605,"text":"所以如果把調查權本身當成目的這個會違反我覺得這個地方會有明顯違反我國五權體制下的權力分立這個原則的這樣的疑惑這樣的疑慮第二點就是說我這邊要強調就是說關於提綱上所提到的就是說行政機關的行政特權的這個議題我這個也要呼應一下就是說因為我國現在體制是半總統制或是雙首長制不是內閣制"},{"start":7959.528,"end":7982.606,"text":"那在內閣制之下就在英國德國這種內閣制之下行政權因為是來自立法權所以非常強調法律保留原則因為法律是立法機關定的而不太強調這個行政保留那所謂行政保留只是說在某些特定的權力分立的原則之下這個行政機關它有自主決定不受外部干涉特別是不受立法機關干涉的權力核心領域"},{"start":7983.487,"end":8000.017,"text":"那因為我國的這個辦總統制之下其實行政權他的權力來源也是有民意基礎的就是來自總統這個內閣制是不一樣的所以在我們的憲政體制裡面跟總統制一樣就是說承認行政保留的這個空間跟範圍其實真的會比較大的那"},{"start":8001.658,"end":8016.057,"text":"行政保留這個概念其實也就呼應到今天提綱上所提到的行政特權這樣的一個概念因為行政特權這個名稱或國家機密特權這個名稱講到特權這個名稱一般都會覺得很刺耳"},{"start":8016.678,"end":8032.439,"text":"不過我這邊還是要提醒就是說在我們的憲政體制裡面確實需要承認行政特權因為我們不是內閣制我們在雙元民主正當性總統跟國會都有民主正當性的情況之下其實行政部門本身既然有自己的民意基礎他確實有一個"},{"start":8033.3,"end":8057.655,"text":"一個空間是它不受立法機關干涉的一個權力範圍所以我這個地方我也認為就是說國防外交國家機密就是說作為這一部分作為排除立法院行使調查權的對象或者是說對於這個國防外交國家機密這些事項在行使調查權的程序上做特別規定我個人是支持這樣的一個立法方向的"},{"start":8058.996,"end":8074.989,"text":"那這邊也可以延伸到一個提醒就是說這個我們在制定我們調查權的這個相關的法制化的過程當中可能我們更需要參考的是這個美國跟法國這樣的立法例因為美國跟法國都是有一個雙重民主正當性"},{"start":8076.149,"end":8096.606,"text":"總統跟國會行政跟立法部門都有民主正常性這樣的一個先任體制而不是都是貼著那個德國立法例因為德國是內閣制國家那內閣制國家的權力分立精神跟總統制辦總制權力分立的原則其實就是不太一樣的那我覺得就是說這個地方要從先任體制的這個類型的角度也做這個提醒"},{"start":8098.268,"end":8125.843,"text":"第三點我這邊要進一步提醒跟強調就是說因為立法院的調查權的行使是一種集體性的權利那為了要讓這個調查權能夠有效的發揮功能也必須要思考就是說要讓少數的立法委員能夠啟動調查那因為如果說立法院的調查權在未來的行使程序當中只有立法院院會的多數或者說委員會的多數才能夠啟動調查的話"},{"start":8128.765,"end":8145.752,"text":"當立法院跟行政部門是一致的時候立法院的調查權就幾乎是被架空跟形容虛設了我們今天這個時刻是很難得看到總統跟立法院多數不一致這樣的一個格局出現所以我們今天才有這麼大的一個空間跟機會去討論調查權這個議題"},{"start":8147.873,"end":8163.946,"text":"那可是未來我們的憲政體制裡面的運作裡面其實還是會有很大的機會是總統行政跟立法院是三者一家親的情況因為在我們目前的這個國會選舉制度之下跟我們現在的這個這個總統跟立法院同時選舉的這樣的情況之下其實"},{"start":8166.648,"end":8194.224,"text":"還是可能會回到2008年到2024年就是今年之前的總統國會立法院多數三者一家親的情況那這種情況之下即使立法院有調查權而如果只讓立法院的多數陣營或多數黨能夠發動啟動的話那調查權就很容易被架空啦所以我這邊也要提醒就是說其實這個讓少數立委能夠啟動調查這個也是有必要的總之我這邊我剛剛提了三個重點我這邊小結一下就是說"},{"start":8196.185,"end":8220.868,"text":"調查權有它的行使界限那這邊必須要尊重就是說權利分立原則在我國的五權體制的憲法裡面跟我們的半重制的這個憲政體制架構裡面有它在這個架構之下要去思考一下我們調查權的行使界限的問題那另外就是我提到就是少數立委也應該要有啟動調查這樣的權利以上是我的這個顯見提供各位這個先進參考 謝謝"},{"start":8223.598,"end":8223.778,"text":"主席"},{"start":8246.75,"end":8269.367,"text":"主席各位立委先進跟各位學者先進那我今天討論的是立法院的國會調查權跟聽證權那我先講五個基本的重點就是說第一個立法院的聽證與調查權"},{"start":8272.608,"end":8300.007,"text":"它不是一個獨立的權利它是立法權的輔助所以它不等於司法的調查權它這個目的呢是在釐清跟輔助立法的功能所以它不是一個可以獨立行使的特別權利因為我們要守住這個憲法的這個限制第二個民選的立法院跟總統民選的總統呢"},{"start":8302.288,"end":8326.723,"text":"它是一個平行的存在因為這跟內閣制國家是不一樣的所以它必須相互尊重彼此權利的行使所以國防外交兩岸關係是總統行政專權的特別領域因為這規定在憲法裡面在美國憲法裡面這叫做總統的憲法固有權這個不是"},{"start":8330.205,"end":8356.622,"text":"國會這跟國會是平行的存在那第三就是說立法院要行使聽證跟調查權呢我們建議這個範圍跟界限呢必須用專法來制定因為遵守權力分立的界限那不應該跟司法跟監察兩權發生重疊跟衝突第四個就是也是很重要的一件事情因為這是一個"},{"start":8358.323,"end":8372.896,"text":"調查權是一件很重要的權利所以要先建立立法院的倫理規範跟工作守則因為美國都這麼做不然會出事真的會出事那特別是在聽證調查權行使開始之前"},{"start":8373.686,"end":8395.507,"text":"而且要擴及到立法委員的助理跟相關人員的法律責任這是一個非常嚴肅的事第五個就是說對於司部門行使聽證跟調查之權特別要慎重因為這個權利不是司法調查權應該最主要的目的應該是以徵詢意見"},{"start":8397.068,"end":8397.248,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":8416.01,"end":8431.207,"text":"立法院調查權發動的門檻將來要討論一個很重要的東西就是我什麼樣的情況可以發動那個門檻他是重要的權衡也是爭議所在那你是不是要院會的半數決議才可以發動還是說這個委員會就可以決議發動"},{"start":8436.943,"end":8457.527,"text":"那在政治上開始我會建議比較謹慎因為聽證還好我是說調查這種調查權的發動呢一般美國的做法比較重大的事情他為了要釐清政治責任他通常都要輸面比如說總統跟參議院國會之間"},{"start":8461.398,"end":8479.566,"text":"重要決策要釐清政治責任所以將來如果要發動調查權的話我也建議必須要用正式的書面續名理由因為會留下政治責任跟歷史記錄那另外就是說在憲法權力分立的制度裡面特別是總統制的國家"},{"start":8481.906,"end":8496.477,"text":"他跟內閣制國家不一樣的地方是國會要發動這個調查權他有他的民事或隱藏的這個天花板他有個天花板他沒有想像這個想像中的大"},{"start":8497.472,"end":8517.488,"text":"因為我們這麼講我們以以三權分立的美國他的說法就是說其實我們通常會理解為三權分立行政立法司法是一個等邊三角形可是按照美國的憲法學的專家所說的他其實是不是一個等邊三角形他是三個"},{"start":8518.789,"end":8543.672,"text":"不等邊的三角形這麼說就是說如果是屬於涉外事務權利兩岸關係國防國安領域他是總統的專屬權利我們這邊所講的就是總統固有權也是所謂的行政特權他是憲法賦予總統的權利那國會給予的是什麼給國會的什麼權利呢他叫做concurrent rights"},{"start":8543.868,"end":8553.776,"text":"他是一個同意監督之權因為整個對外關係涉及到國家安全是給予總統的可是如果是國內事務"},{"start":8555.997,"end":8584.884,"text":"那當然是國會的立法權最大那所以如果國會民事不同意呢那總統只能退回去守他的憲法的固有權那司法機關呢是被動的守住違憲解釋權跟個案的司法判決權可是呢這裡要提醒的一件事就是說如果涉及到基本人權的事務比如說像美國所說的權力法案的內容"},{"start":8585.646,"end":8610.838,"text":"那其實在這個三角形裡面呢最高的是法院保障人權才是最高的即使是國會的立法權或者是行政權都必須退讓這是美國那個非常著名的首席大法官Robert Jackson他就採取這個基本觀點他認為三權是分立的"},{"start":8611.616,"end":8636.152,"text":"可是同時也存在著彼此競爭跟合作的關係所以它是一個動態的權力本質所以將來這個立法院要啟動這個調查權聽證權其實它也是在權力運作下的一個動態平衡可是這裡面有一條紅線就是彼此之間的憲法界線是必須要遵守的"},{"start":8637.193,"end":8656.743,"text":"那換句話說我們在談到就是說4585特別談到的所謂的行政特權那個人認為啦如果涉及到國家安全或國家核心關鍵技術的保密的問題呢其實行政機關如果有正當理由的話是可以拒絕的"},{"start":8661.159,"end":8686.267,"text":"這裡面在討論到一件事情就是說在發動調查之權呢其實立法院有很多的權力包括質詢包括公聽包括召集秘密會議、調閱這是行政機關跟立法機關在政治協調之間的藝術除非兩院衝突或政治破裂它才會有發動調查權的可能性那"},{"start":8687.427,"end":8709.83,"text":"其實要發動這個調查權呢這個當然是可以的可是就是說立法院的政府院長也好啊總召也好啊召委也好了他對於發動調查權他也必須具備正當性他也同時負有政治責任也要接受社會輿論的等等的公平那"},{"start":8712.679,"end":8736.928,"text":"至於這個保密義務我認為這是一個在行政特權上當然行政機關他在提供秘密文件的時候他可以要求參閱不得記錄或限定檢閱也可以要求相關人士拒絕保密責任那在相關的責任上如果有違反情節嚴重當然我覺得一個比較重要的東西就是"},{"start":8738.089,"end":8753.387,"text":"在這個互動的過程裡面真的發生比較不好的事情的時候我覺得立法院也應該承擔一個責任就是要移送紀律委員會來處理那因為我的其他的東西都在報告上那我就報告到這裡謝謝"},{"start":8755.913,"end":8759.614,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位學者專家 各位政府官員"},{"start":8784.164,"end":8812.133,"text":"在過去35年裡我一直在臺灣負責憲政教育同時也有將近20年的時間從事政治實務在我擔任立法委員、監察委員跟國大代表這三個不同職務的具體的經驗裡我發覺這個國大代表的權利是遼背一格監察委員是具備真正的實權"},{"start":8813.655,"end":8841.666,"text":"而立法委員的權利多半都是空洞只是走秀那主要的原因就是在於這個調查權跟聽證權的缺乏那今天我們終於有機會來討論這個聽證跟調查的實際的運作所以我先針對剛剛前面十幾位先進所提出的內容我提出三個重要的"},{"start":8843.231,"end":8866.116,"text":"經驗跟教訓第一就是五權之間是有機互補的第二憲政本身是成長的第三政治與法律的互動除了依據政治實力之外也跟政黨之間的競合有密切的關係"},{"start":8867.816,"end":8890.656,"text":"在這個重要的三個前提之下我們來看兩件在25、6年前的重要的國會改革第一個是在1999年的1月由民進黨當時的沈富雄委員、林卓瑞委員"},{"start":8892.285,"end":8915.132,"text":"國民黨的林光華委員以及我當時提出了一個重要的國會改革方案其中呢要求成立三個重要的立法院內的重要的機構第一個是法治局第二是預算局第三是國會圖書館結果當時執政的國民黨為了害怕"},{"start":8921.803,"end":8922.123,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":8946.381,"end":8972.313,"text":"預算局壓低成為預算中心而原先的規劃就是法治局、預算局跟國會圖書館都是具備政務人員的位階現在把它通通壓到13職等所以這告訴我們什麼呢就是當行政體系害怕國會有用充分職能的時候它是藉由考試院之手"},{"start":8973.737,"end":8982.447,"text":"以國家的文官跟官員的具體的執掌為由來扮演剎車的角色"},{"start":8983.988,"end":9004.821,"text":"第2個事情是在1998年當監察院經過了第二次第三次修憲他的權力大幅度改變的時候這個時候當時的監察院長王作榮希望透過立法院之手能夠調整監察院的內部的機制"},{"start":9006.265,"end":9027.432,"text":"這個時候行政院又出面了這個時候出面的是人事總局人事局當時的要求是在不增加任何行政人員的條件之下進行機構的改革在這個情況之下第一監察院從原來的10個委員會縮減成7個委員會這個時候人事就騰出來了很多人"},{"start":9032.486,"end":9032.786,"text":"公聽委員．"},{"start":9047.079,"end":9064.416,"text":"提出了一個重大的改革就是將監察院27位委員加上院長副院長這個29個人的規模用三個方式第一個就是高職等的檢任官的調查官"},{"start":9065.543,"end":9067.484,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9081.612,"end":9098.284,"text":"監察院調查處而事後監察權的成長跟調查工作的落實跟1998年的監察院組織法的調整有密切的關係而這個正是今天我們在討論"},{"start":9099.545,"end":9119.88,"text":"立法院的調查權如何落實的時候最重要的關鍵就是立法院的調查機制專職專業的調查人員在哪裡如果缺乏這個機制的話下面的立法院調查權的落實是有重大缺陷的"},{"start":9120.981,"end":9146.335,"text":"第二 剛剛很多學法律的專業委員跟專家都特別提出了這個程序必須非常的審慎我個人也是抱著同感這個會經過立法院一段時間的政黨協商政黨競和以及五院之間的互動最後會出來一套比較詳實的立法"},{"start":9149.937,"end":9169.372,"text":"監察之間的互動所形成的新的機制這個機制是什麼呢就是聽證權跟調查權如何落實如何讓立法院的調查權跟監察院的調查權能夠做清晰的分隔"},{"start":9170.553,"end":9191.361,"text":"這個時候我想提出來第一個原則就是監察院的調查權是由委員個人行使是經過監察院內部的派查程序包括院會的派查包括委員會的派查包括委員個人登記的調查來進行"},{"start":9194.022,"end":9208.472,"text":"第二就是監察院的調查的結果涉及到關真的部分是由委員橫珠實況負責調查的委員來決定是不是提起彈劾或者糾舉"},{"start":9209.773,"end":9235.962,"text":"然後再由委員會來決定是不是對相關的機關提出具體的糾正的作為但是大家都忽略了下面一個重要的權利就是當監察院的委員會對相關機關做成了糾正之後因為被糾正的機關它的首長會更迭"},{"start":9237.907,"end":9266.963,"text":"所以現在的首長沒有理由去承擔前面出事的首長的政治責任可是監察院有一個重要的機制叫做質問這個質問權如果一旦行使這個時候被質問的行政機關的首長就知道如果他再不根據糾正跟質問的內容進行調整下一階段"},{"start":9268.386,"end":9288.171,"text":"監察委員就可以對他行使彈劾即使過去的錯誤的作為責任不在他但是經過了質問的程序之後這個時候他就要承擔具體的政治責任而且可能會被彈劾或糾舉所以"},{"start":9288.973,"end":9310.138,"text":"我們必須了解就是五權之間是一種動態的平衡而且是一種有機的互補所以我剛剛所報告的包括立法院本身的國會改革因為考試院的出面而觸礁而打了折扣"},{"start":9312.172,"end":9337.699,"text":"監察院要擴張他的調查權依賴的是立法院的修正監察院組織法提供了七八十位專業的調查人員大幅度的強化他的能力第三今天要落實立法院的調查權也必須依賴第一個立法委員的自律"},{"start":9339.188,"end":9359.848,"text":"立法院跟監察院在行使調查作為的時候的區隔在這個前提之下我想特別提出一點就是當立法院在執行它的調閱政府文件工作的時候首先要符合保密原則"},{"start":9362.879,"end":9378.368,"text":"聽證的對象是及於所有的公務人員包括政務官但是私人機關個人是不是接受聽證是不是接受調查是由他自行決定"},{"start":9379.853,"end":9398.62,"text":"所以剛剛談了很多的政治實務如果有一些私人企業覺得他接受調查並且在聽證會出席對他的企業有利他自己會來而不應該是由細緻的法律條件做過多的規範"},{"start":9399.6,"end":9400.16,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9426.964,"end":9427.744,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9456.869,"end":9457.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9476.516,"end":9477.337,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":9507.217,"end":9508.438,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9537.841,"end":9539.163,"text":"我剛才查了25條質問之"},{"start":9548.283,"end":9548.903,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9573.496,"end":9574.317,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9597.108,"end":9597.428,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9625.246,"end":9626.027,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9642.221,"end":9642.661,"text":"委員會主委委員會"},{"start":9660.808,"end":9662.529,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9689.457,"end":9690.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9732.066,"end":9737.268,"text":"我們繼續公聽會的進行接下來邀請郭育仁所長發言"},{"start":9746.902,"end":9771.168,"text":"感謝主席然後在場各位先進這個我這是第一次參加立法院的公聽會我今天來參加這個公聽會之前我一直以為事實上最無聊的會議是學術會議結果沒想到立法院的公聽會比我們學術會議更沒意義啦在討論這麼一個嚴肅的議題國會調查權"},{"start":9776.666,"end":9801.583,"text":"很巧啦 看到三個政黨的立法委員發言嘛這個我自己不是黨員 我沒動的啦可是我這樣看 國民黨跟民眾黨的立委在看待這個議題的態度是隨便是令人咋舌啦還好那個藐視國會最後還沒通過 不然我這樣講可能就藐視國會了"},{"start":9804.571,"end":9833.98,"text":"尤其今天討論的這個調查國會調查權又涉及除了國家的國家機密之外還有這個營業秘密的部分所以剛剛這個黃委員在講黃國昌委員在講說私人企業的這個什麼營業秘密為什麼不能看為什麼不能了解各位回想一下沒有幾年前喔沒有幾年前啦2020年的口罩算不算是國家重要物資啊"},{"start":9836.875,"end":9856.7,"text":"2022年烏克蘭戰爭爆發的時候美國的這個星鏈馬斯克星鏈是私人企業阿有沒有影響到一個國家的存亡阿所以是你國會說要調查就可以調查美國國會也沒有這麼大的權力啦所以我覺得"},{"start":9858.223,"end":9886.014,"text":"那個討論不應該是聚焦在是不是國會擴權或國會跟行政機關之間的相對性權力的相對性而是討論 discussion is center on national interest是討論的重心應該是怎麼達成國家利益的最大化我都沒聽到 這個不是yes no的question不是討論要或不要 是what and how的question"},{"start":9887.912,"end":9902.459,"text":"應該要針對哪些特定的秘密特定的機密然後要用什麼程序去完成調查因為尤其是商業秘密的部分它涉及的範圍太廣了"},{"start":9904.814,"end":9920.856,"text":"專業程度太高了我是擔心我們立法委員的平均數值所以這個程序又非常困難因為他在立法院裡面進行代表他政治性會非常高所以如果不把這些事情"},{"start":9922.742,"end":9944.488,"text":"把它考慮進來 我覺得討論的都是假討論的我舉一個例子 我自己是研究兩用科技的我是研究軍工業的啦我舉個例子啦 各位也不要覺得說好像我們台灣的立法院 我們台灣的國會沒有真正在落實國會調查權好像是天底下的民主國家好像只有台灣一個啦我舉一個例子 日本從1947年形現"},{"start":9947.29,"end":9970.199,"text":"日本第一個國會的獨立調查委員會是什麼時候成立 可能大家都不知道是2011年才成立 因為311大地震的關係因為福島河災的關係行限了幾十年 日本國會第一次行使獨立調查權這個2013年 日本就有前車之鑒所以安倍晉三擔任首相的時候"},{"start":9971.092,"end":9992.394,"text":"在國會通過了非常重要一個法律叫特定秘密保護法我要跟各位分享的就是說日本國會為了要行使調查權他先鋪墊了非常多的法制的工作他先2013年通過一個特定秘密保護法然後他的國會法"},{"start":9993.564,"end":10006.741,"text":"要相對應的去做修改 修改了哪些條文日本的國會法104條去發動調查權的條件在具備什麼條件底下 國會才能夠發動調查權他修了國會法52-2條發動調查權的程序"},{"start":10013.807,"end":10033.813,"text":"國會法第102條13到15項還特別為了行使國會調查權要成立一個常態常設的情報監視審查會就如同我剛剛說的因為你要調查的這些內容範圍太廣專業度太高所以你一定要有一個常設的幕僚單位也因為這個樣子還要成立這個國會法修國會法102"},{"start":10040.725,"end":10057.973,"text":"13至15項成立這個長色性的情報監察這個審查會他那個審查會委員8個是按照國會這個執政在野黨派的比例下去下去這個由各個政黨下去做指派"},{"start":10060.465,"end":10080.447,"text":"又為了成立這個委員會這個審查會還訂定了國會還訂定了這個審查會的章程然後這個章程裡面第二條第三條還特別規定這些成員他的資格他的任期他的比例然後他的4-1條還特別規定國會自律的部分"},{"start":10081.528,"end":10103.133,"text":"就是剛剛這個很多先進都有討論到 國會自律的部分 包含什麼國會議員有意或無意洩漏了你正在調查的這些特定的情報跟國家機密都在這個地方 法則也在這個地方去做非常明確的這個規定修改國會法102條第18項 審查會還成立一個事務局"},{"start":10108.502,"end":10114.969,"text":"換句話說這個輔助國會調查委員會的這個常態性的審查會還成立一個事務局"},{"start":10116.715,"end":10140.801,"text":"對 就如剛剛各位所討論到的在國會在我們立法院裡面審的很多東西包含立法委員本人跟他的助理也好立法院的職員他都會接觸到這些機密文件所以他還特別成立這個審查會的事務局來規範這個職員們的這個保密跟規範的義務所以他又去修改了國會職員法5至2條"},{"start":10143.581,"end":10168.128,"text":"所以換句話說要發動一個國會這個調查權日本政府、日本國會事先要做這麼多這個法規的基礎工程我剛才都沒聽到這個部分的討論那2013年的特定密意保護法剛剛講了它跟國會法的修法是corresponding這個新法跟國會法的修改是corresponding是相對應的"},{"start":10170.236,"end":10197.372,"text":"特定秘密保護法10-1條它就對應國會法剛剛提到104條的秘密委員會的部分還不只這樣我們今天討論的剛剛討論的是國家機密的部分我現在再跟各位報告一下2022年日本通過經濟安全保障推進法這個部分就是我們一直提到剛剛一直提到的營業秘密的部分"},{"start":10199.969,"end":10219.651,"text":"日本政府日本國會通過這個法之後他還在這個內閣設了一個新的辦公室叫做經濟安保推進辦公室啊對啊這個辦公室是幹什麼他這是事務局啦因為商業秘密涉及的範圍比國家秘密涉及的範圍更廣泛專業度更高啦"},{"start":10221.124,"end":10248.502,"text":"所以你一定要有一個常態性的專業幕僚單位才能夠做這個事情那它規範哪些事這個特定的法律規範哪些事第一個國家重要物資的指定跟這個國家關鍵供應鏈的指定所以剛剛提到嘛現在大家都口罩很寡口罩不重要三年前口罩不重要重不重要是國家重要物資當然是國家重要物資嘛"},{"start":10251.12,"end":10275.505,"text":"當時3年前2022年2021年的時候生產這個口罩的那些機器啊現在沒有人買了啦3年前是不是國家重要物資當然是嘛第二點它規範什麼核心關鍵基礎設施啦這個核心關鍵基礎設施還不是只有實體的就是港口啊機場那些而已喔它還包含什麼能源供給啦包含通訊"},{"start":10277.399,"end":10288.449,"text":"包含通訊在內都是它規範的範圍第三個跟第四個就相對那個概念又更複雜了第一個涉及專利不公開的部分"},{"start":10289.765,"end":10313.794,"text":"專利不公開的部分第4個涉及什麼?尖端科技的政府與民間合作阿這個現在在台灣常常發生阿我們完全沒有這些法規建設阿完全沒有阿所以你單獨討論國會的調查權所以我剛一開始有講嘛我頭硬的是沒必要韓國昌比較激動阿我不知道他在講什麼啦我聽不懂"},{"start":10314.64,"end":10341.809,"text":"對啊你一直討論國會的調查權的部分你完全沒有相對應的這個法規建設基礎建設我今天才知道說有一個職業比我們大學教授還險那因為這個經濟安全保障法日本政府現在國會正在審議一個新的法叫做重要經濟安保信息法那個是什麼呢他來認定"},{"start":10343.564,"end":10343.824,"text":"以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":10368.874,"end":10394.555,"text":"謝謝郭所長陣容發虧的發言我們也會虛心的來加以檢討我們是不是不夠專業不夠認真也太閒了接下來我們就要請紀俊成教授發言看錯了是張俊豪張教授抱歉那我這邊先做一個程序上的宣告公聽會上午的會議時間會進行到所有發言均結束為止謝謝不好意思張教授謝謝"},{"start":10401.94,"end":10427.47,"text":"主席主席各位先進大家好我是東海大學政治系的張俊豪那因為在後面發言所以在前面有關於調查權的一些細節然後立法的內容目的我想我就不再贅述了那我大概就希望因為我本身做憲政體制研究所以我想我是不是就從憲政體制的角度來提供大院做一個在立法上面的思考我覺得這個思考可能是一個比較上層的問題"},{"start":10427.99,"end":10440.432,"text":"為什麼我說比較上層的問題因為其實我們今天討論立法院的調查權這個調查權當然在其實大家一直在講的585號解釋裡面其實已經把它講得很清楚了也就是說調查權到底怎麼樣去行使"},{"start":10440.785,"end":10440.925,"text":"主題是在討論"},{"start":10459.637,"end":10475.839,"text":"有關於國會調查權監督行政機關的這一件事情所以我覺得在上層來講我們應該先去思考我們要去立這個法就是行政跟立法之間的監督到底怎麼樣讓它可以有效這個叫制衡的關係那我把這個叫做方法"},{"start":10476.42,"end":10492.192,"text":"你要去釐清這個方法怎麼去跳脫585號第二個是我們一直在講說立法要去監督行政機關但是到底行政機關在什麼地方也就是說這個對象到底是什麼所以如果不去把這個釐清的話585號可能你在立法上面接下來都會有違憲的問題"},{"start":10493.613,"end":10516.313,"text":"所以在這個問題上面我覺得第一個就是我們要先去找行政機關的對象我想今天在座很多先進都討論到這個問題那其實包含剛剛周昂山老師我過去都讀他憲法教科書他一直在談到五權憲法但是從4至627號之後我想我們的憲法已經變成是一個六權的憲法了也就是說其實我們就是有兩個行政機關"},{"start":10517.474,"end":10544.384,"text":"627號其實也肯認了在這個憲法上面其實總統在他行政權範圍內他就是一個最高行政首長而且總統就是一個叫做行政機關好那所以基於這個前提雖然憲法上規定行政要對立法負責所以呢立法對行政當然可以監督或者是按照這個大法官會議解釋613號的理由書第二段說行政一體所以行政要對立法負責可是事實上來講627號他其實給予了"},{"start":10546.725,"end":10567.351,"text":"這一個叫做總統作為一個行政機關總統作為一個最高行政首長那麼立法院有沒有可能對總統來進行所謂的監督我覺得這個是第一項問題第二個問題是在實際的憲政運作的過程裡面那這個叫做行政院的院長他其實就是由總統來進行任命的"},{"start":10567.831,"end":10584.838,"text":"我記得過去在我讀書的時候那時候在7月2000年也是少數政府當時這個總統在組閣的時候大家好像還一大堆意見那現在國內根本就沒有討論大家覺得總統跟行政院其實就應該是一體所以我的意思就是說在這樣的一個前提裡面我們作為一個雙手掌勢"},{"start":10585.618,"end":10609.683,"text":"那總統他具有這樣的一個行政權的時候立法院到底怎麼樣能夠去監督得到他好那這個問題其實在617號裡面其實也講很清楚其實總統就是有所謂國家機密的特權而這個國家機密的特權基於總統又去可以去影響去任命他行政院長的時候這個國家機密特權重點其實真的不是在行政院其實他應該就是在總統的身上所以到底要怎麼樣去"},{"start":10611.704,"end":10639.823,"text":"打到總統的這個部分監督到總統的部分調查權能夠給予總統的部分他才有可能完成我們今天這個主題上的討論所以如果是這樣來講的話那其實憲法也並不是沒有提供一個解決的機制事實上面對這個問題過去在585號釋字或者是729號釋字其實就已經提到在所謂司法的偵查上面他其實就已經給予了就是其他的憲法部門"},{"start":10640.963,"end":10665.039,"text":"去監督或者是去處理到總統有關於國家機密特權的這一個問題那現在的問題就會變成是立法院現在要去立這樣的一個法那他當然就第一個部分就是他很可能就會為了去對抗這個叫國家機密特權為了監督國家機密特權所以他可能就會侵害到就是585號729號所講的司法院在這裡面扮演的角色"},{"start":10665.379,"end":10694.298,"text":"那也就不用講說監察院過去在325號解釋所告訴你多他其實也是有調查權所以這個問題在立法的上層上其實就第一步要去思考說其實四字的三號已經講得很清楚今天可能沒有幾位先進提到就是四字三號其實講我們就是一個權力五權那時候還是五權就是五權分治平等相違所以如果立法院要去立這個法的時候我認為非常容易他就是侵害到其他憲政部門的權力"},{"start":10695.419,"end":10711.764,"text":"那我覺得非常有可能會有違憲的問題所以第一步也就是我覺得往上層來看第一步針對這個問題我覺得立法院如果真的要去監督如果想把自己的調查權去擴張甚至取代司法偵查或者是取代這樣的一個監察院的一個這個調查權"},{"start":10712.824,"end":10727.088,"text":"我覺得除非去修憲第一步就修憲去把總統納入到實際合理的納入到行政權的範圍內因為我們說要長治國家我們不是內閣治國家也就是說譬如說你修憲讓總統去參加行政會議然後讓總統來接受質詢除非這個樣子"},{"start":10731.949,"end":10747.667,"text":"那也就是他就可以回到585號上面所講的你要進行調查權跟你的職權相關的時候你要去立法你要去提預算案你要去審預算案你這個時候當然就可以去這個去監督到所謂的總統我覺得這個會符合我們今天的主題"},{"start":10748.328,"end":10761.261,"text":"好可是沒有錯就是如果要討論到修憲的問題這個問題其實太大而且太累而且也太困難了所以我進一步覺得說如果我們再退一步我們再退一步如果不要討論到這麼嚴肅的憲法上面的層次"},{"start":10764.864,"end":10780.119,"text":"那麼回到585號我們就來思考就是585號其實已經給了立法院其實就有文件調閱或者是陳述意見或者是有所謂處罰上面的這樣的一個權利了那但是這個權利呢就是這個權利了齁"},{"start":10781.32,"end":10797.651,"text":"我覺得剛剛其實警衛先進也提到就這些權利其實他在所謂的一致政府的情況之下府會合一的情況之下這根本就根本就不太可能會去討論那現在是在府會不一致的情況之下那我們來討論調查權的問題那這個調查權的問題我覺得就"},{"start":10800.773,"end":10820.047,"text":"會比較接近585號裡面所講的如果今天要去進行調查然後這個叫做行政部門不去配合的時候那麼在這裡面其實立法院他必須要去尊重行政院因為這個就是我們尊重行政機關這就是我們憲法用權力分立的精神那這種所謂的尊重"},{"start":10820.747,"end":10837.084,"text":"或者是要去進行所謂的協商、協調我覺得這個事情其實是比較能夠去思考到的問題那這個思考到的問題就是我要怎麼樣去進行所謂的協商或者是在這裡面去達到所謂的尊重"},{"start":10837.705,"end":10854.072,"text":"那我覺得一樣的問題就如果不去修憲的話除非除非齁我們就去修法我們就再進一步去修法齁把所謂的國家的機密特權這一件事情把國家機密特權這一件事情把它納入到法律的內容裡面來好意思也就是說"},{"start":10855.012,"end":10870.675,"text":"也就是說在不一致政府的情況之下其實總統他這個國家機密特權也就包含國防兩岸外交的這些權利那這些權利其實把他這個這個這個把他納入到所謂的法律體系裡面來的時候包括"},{"start":10871.115,"end":10899.125,"text":"包括過去大家很熱門在討論比如說兩岸的監督條例假設立法院去搞了一些比如說國安方面的監督條例比如說外交方面的監督條例如果你可以有這些條例的時候那麼你針對所謂國家機密特權那你為了立法上面的需求為了監督上面的需求所以你必須行政部門要來跟你所謂的協商行政部門必須要來跟你在所謂這個過程當中來進行包含意見的陳述"},{"start":10900.205,"end":10916.862,"text":"包含這個他如果不來的話可能進行所謂的處罰這個時候也才有可能真的去打到所謂國家機密特權也就是簡單講就是把總統的這一些權力納入到未來在修法上面除了我覺得修調查權以外立調查權的法之外"},{"start":10917.242,"end":10930.128,"text":"把這一些國家機密特權的相關監督的辦法把它納入到立法的過程裡面來他才有可能真正去調查到有效監督行政機關國家機密特權的這件事情好那這個問題其實"},{"start":10932.132,"end":10950.835,"text":"從學理上面來看那簡單來講我剛講第一點其實我們要講行政機關我們的雙手掌自治下總統是一個行政機關第二個是我們在雙手掌自治下總統其實也因為他作為一個這個叫民選的機關所以他一樣有所謂的立法權"},{"start":10951.576,"end":10973.028,"text":"那總統的立法權其實就是國家機密特權他其實他會有所謂的國安這個國防兩岸外交或者是他這個包含各位所熟知的就是他包含這個叫這個法令權啊或者是他去提請公民投票這一些權利其實這個是立法院如果想要在調查權行使上面有效監督到真正實質影響行政權運作的總統這個行政機關的時候其實應該在"},{"start":10976.59,"end":10977.971,"text":"非常謝謝張教授的發言,接下來有請紀俊成教授發言"},{"start":11011.742,"end":11038.365,"text":"公聽會召集委員、總務委員、各位學者專家以及議會的中央政府的官員大家好我想今天有機會參加這個公聽會我個人是覺得我們在建立制度的時候不應該考慮到哪個黨而是要考慮哪個制度的可行性"},{"start":11039.71,"end":11066.571,"text":"今天這個調查權的問題在幾十年前我就寫過文章我就批判一定要實施結果國民黨就被擋了擋去最後今天還要來討論這個問題基本上我們整個國家的政黨最大的缺點就是以政黨自己的利益來考量"},{"start":11068.454,"end":11090.036,"text":"財政司法很重要,大家都說要修改,結果國民黨執政不修改民進黨執政16年也沒有修改,為什麼?因為現行的制度對他有利嘛,他不修改我是覺得這樣的話,如果有一天你變成一個在野的時候,你就後悔了"},{"start":11092.128,"end":11114.108,"text":"調查權在民進黨在野的時候一直在提出來一定要定搞不好弄出來一個調閱權好不容易585號解釋成全了調查權這都是說明有一黨之私的話制度是不會健全的"},{"start":11115.643,"end":11128.72,"text":"我個人今天來參加這個公聽會我是沒有黨派的我是無黨籍的我是認為這個制度的建立一定要非常的慎重"},{"start":11129.895,"end":11155.902,"text":"非常的周圓來考量但事實上有它的急迫性可能啊要周圓也有困難不過我大體上來講我是認為既然大法官580號解釋已經很明確的說明立法委員立法院有這個調查權那這個調查權和監察院的調查權是不一樣的"},{"start":11157.852,"end":11183.954,"text":"剛剛有學者談到五權分立的事情各位要了解當時賦予監察院的調查權那是因為監察院也是國會的一部分考量之下的所以那時候的調查權賦予國會的監察院而不是賦予國會的立法院現在監察院已經啊形成為一個準司法機關不具有這個國會的一個"},{"start":11186.434,"end":11208.107,"text":"特質而功能所以說我們在考慮這個問題的時候有必要了解以現在的憲法徵修條文裡面對於有關總統的彈劾乃至於罷免等等都賦予了立法院的前者他有提以前所以我是覺得"},{"start":11209.366,"end":11237.159,"text":"我們今天來談這個調查權的時候可能要有一個整體的考量雖然立法院的職權刑事法裡面已經有若干的條文有一些規定但是坦白講都沒有提到調查權的問題所以我是建議我們立法院應該趁這個機會大家在關心這個題目的時候我們前面的"},{"start":11239.1,"end":11249.812,"text":"修正立法院的逐減行政法把不管是彈劾的部分也好或是罷免的部分可能要受起調查的部分都應該納進來以備不時之需"},{"start":11253.291,"end":11277.28,"text":"再來就是對於這個文件的調閱權的處理這個部分把他改為調查權調查權的處理的行使然後把這個調查權應該立法做一個立法機關做一個國會他應該怎麼做的比較是一個理性的調查制度的話"},{"start":11278.32,"end":11302.513,"text":"那麼經過協商,乃至於委託學者專家做一個研究,定出來一個制度那麼未來如果有需要行使的時候,就不會有要補貨網了所以我是覺得可以這樣來做,但是現階段來講,我覺得大家都說國會要改革"},{"start":11303.439,"end":11311.865,"text":"那國會要改革,如果說調查權是最重要的改革之一的話那是不是透過朝委的協商從議事規則來做調整因為我們國會有他的議事規則,這樣來調整,賦予"},{"start":11323.72,"end":11342.88,"text":"不是這樣的完整的調查權至少說已經把這個大法官580號解釋的精神納進來的一個調查權放進去但是我想各位都很清楚的一點就是說營業秘密的事情營業秘密法裡面寫的很清楚"},{"start":11344.107,"end":11359.866,"text":"那既然有這個規定,那如果違反的話,他就應該要受到移民民法的制裁但是有時候,受到制裁也不是那麼容易所以怎麼樣的透過立法院現有的倫理規範"},{"start":11363.035,"end":11378.117,"text":"乃至於透過他的紀律規範來使他不能夠因為知道了一些私人企業的秘密來透露出去的問題當然我是覺得以目前的情形來講的話"},{"start":11379.739,"end":11406.181,"text":"最好是調查前不要擠移到私人企業因為這是蠻複雜的只要和企業有關都和錢有關所以你說我不洩漏我就可以透過各種過程達到這個目的所以說以目前的法律不備的話不賤錢的情況之下我是比較認為所謂調查我們是現在你在對公部門的調查"},{"start":11407.779,"end":11426.006,"text":"那麼公部門如果還有涉及到私人企業的情形的時候那麼依請司法機關調查我想如果這樣的話這個問題就會減少相對來講我們立法院的形象還可以建立起來"},{"start":11427.186,"end":11456.23,"text":"剛剛有一些教授提到 立法院好像沒事做我個人是覺得立法院事情很多要不要做而已 不是沒事做問題是該怎麼做 也不是說要做就亂做我是覺得大家都照理性的問證的一個基礎上來設計制度使我們這個調查權能夠逐漸的來形成一個完整的制度我想這樣是最可行的 謝謝各位"},{"start":11458.066,"end":11462.813,"text":"好 謝謝我們季教授的發言接下來有請黎家維副研究員進行發言 謝謝"},{"start":11471.909,"end":11487.691,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場來賓先進大家好我是國家政策研究基金會的副研究員李家維其實我研究所畢業後第一分分都是進了立法院我在第5屆的時候在這邊當助理今天有點回娘家的感覺所以我當然要幫立法院多講一些話"},{"start":11488.905,"end":11517.951,"text":"那我覺得呢今天其實從昨天和今天還有上個禮拜的公聽會我大概拜讀了大家的意見我覺得有三個可能隱藏的假設就是我覺得我是打問號第一個就是大家認為說立法院有調查權代表立法院的擴權這是第一個第一個疑問第二個立法院有調查權就會跟其他權力機關像監察院啊司法院或行政院調查的一些東西會有衝突第三個就是"},{"start":11518.882,"end":11546.004,"text":"好像只有立法院在行使調查選會出現洩密的問題會出現侵犯營業秘密的問題是嗎我一次就這三個問題進行回答就是說其實今天當然大家很多學生都知道會有這個立法院聽證調查的這個公聽會會在討論這個議題就是顯然就是行政立法不一致的一個政治現實的結果其實國內研究政治或憲政的學生都知道"},{"start":11547.042,"end":11567.694,"text":"我們國內沒有人會認為立法權很大的都會認為行政權獨大尤其我們憲政實際運作上面大家都會擔心總統的權力非常大沒有人擔心立法院的權力會但是一談到要賦予立法院一個調查權的時候大家都覺得說立法院要擴權了其實我們應該把焦點放在我們要如何"},{"start":11569.184,"end":11586.562,"text":"自衡或監督一個已經權力非常大的行政機關讓立法院有足夠的工具而不是其實我總是聽到人家說我們立法院是行政院的立法局請問各位有聽過人家說這個行政院是立法院的行政執行處嗎"},{"start":11589.305,"end":11606.556,"text":"從來在國內的學者是沒有這樣講所以兩院的權力的失衡其實現在是我們更擔心其實我不擔心給立法院更大的權力而且這個所謂調查聽證權是一個輔助性的權力我們並沒有在憲法上另外增設給立法院其他的權力 沒有"},{"start":11607.256,"end":11632.05,"text":"他只是透過這個輔助性的工具能夠讓他原來的職權行使得更完善那目的呢立法院的目的不是在監督民眾是在監督行政官員監督政府所以我說有很多擔心我們會侵犯民眾權益這有但是我覺得這個問題我覺得可能把立法院的威脅性想得太大其實立法院沒有那麼恐怖加上所謂的聽證調查"},{"start":11634.425,"end":11645.772,"text":"585講 聽證調查要發動 要院會同意 院會要什麼至少二分之一如果像剛剛很多學者講的未來如果我們行政立法繼續合一我現在就算立法院調查權法制化以後有發動的機會嗎"},{"start":11647.557,"end":11650.319,"text":"立法院對違反強制法環的裁罰也要院會同意"},{"start":11669.161,"end":11692.21,"text":"通過決議後送給司法機關進行因為立法院也不是他不能自己升堂審判嘛他畢竟不是法院啦那是交給司法機關來處理所以立法院權利要與其比起立法院對人民直接侵害性行政權絕對遠遠更大而且更直接這個才是我們做一個民意機關必須要強化自己權利限制要監督一個過大行政權應該要做的"},{"start":11698.177,"end":11724.65,"text":"立法院調查權就像其他院的調查權會發生衝突其實不一定其實行政院有行政院調查權嘛大家都在行政機關的在座的都知道我金管會我可以調查衛福部、食安什麼調查環保甚至什麼涉及到營業秘密我要給一個藥證或給一個科技的這個專利他直接就直接他可以他可以了解到這個所謂什麼營業秘密或民間的問題"},{"start":11728.038,"end":11737.777,"text":"那立法院呢這個我覺得這個就有關這個行政院的這個直接的這個東西我覺得立法院他其實比較間接那"},{"start":11740.506,"end":11761.374,"text":"我覺得如果立法院 你們擔心會出現問題 難道行政機關都不會發生其實往往都會發生 那我在第三點再講第二點就是說 大家擔心權限衝突 有關行政權限衝突其實國會的調查權 行政院的調查權 司法院的調查權衝突怎麼辦 沒關係嘛 我們就先run"},{"start":11762.444,"end":11775.477,"text":"實際上美國的總統的行政特權國家機密特權和國會調查權它也不是憲法規範的是一次一次權力互相爭對抗之後那個界限才透過司法裁判慢慢越把那個界限"},{"start":11776.414,"end":11796.566,"text":"越來越疏離清楚他不是一下就掉下來的所以我們可以先立法我們先做那有些東西其實大法官已經做了很多解釋了包括585號要不是沒有要不是那時候國會是藍泛藍的比較多他不會有585不會有增調會條例也不會因為扁政府他用585號去申請解釋釋憲然後來對抗然後做出585號解釋"},{"start":11801.625,"end":11829.526,"text":"講出了調查權6月7號一樣啊司法在審判這個總統機密特權的時候發生衝突了那麼可以請大法官做解釋啊他就把那個所謂總統機密特權他司法所謂能不能觸碰到總統機密特權到底界線在哪他會越畫越清楚其實國會調查權一樣我們就大膽給他嘛給他之後他跟其他權限跟監察權跟這個司法權有什麼衝突的地方我們有衝突可以救濟啊"},{"start":11830.694,"end":11845.88,"text":"立法院可以提醒申請現在叫做憲法裁判我們透過一次一次的憲法裁判我們會把權力的界限慢慢畫清楚不要我們不需要就是說自己啊現在就自己怕東怕西的啊這果足不前啊585要通過20年了嘛"},{"start":11847.196,"end":11875.076,"text":"大家都說因為我怕這個會侵權我怕侵犯別人權利所以我就不行使這個有點因噎廢死你就把他行使那當然不是說亂行使這個權利因為立法院畢竟是合一之機關他信這個權利的時候他慢慢有有權利衝突的時候我們透過司法途徑或透過協商建立慣例這是大法官指示的方向甚至總統的願即調解權也可以出來那回到今天的提綱的部分有關國家機密特權就我剛才有稍微提到"},{"start":11876.147,"end":11898.4,"text":"行政機關會碰到的或法院在審判會碰到機密案件怎麼辦怎麼處理立法院會碰到怎麼處理立法院就比照行政機關嘛比照司法就法院他要怎麼審理機密案件怎麼會不能處理呢我們包括大家會擔心說我立法院現在洩密的問題其實我們刑法刑法很多洩密的規定啊132條瀆職罪有洩密的刑法的300"},{"start":11908.533,"end":11920.601,"text":"立法委員是有言論的免責權在院內他可能沒有刑事豁免權你要洩漏國防機密或國防以外的機密他這樣是可以追究責任包括營業秘密同樣也是如此"},{"start":11922.881,"end":11947.806,"text":"我倒不擔心立法院洩密有沒有追究其實唯一的問題在立法院助理的部分因為有關刑法適用對象公務員、廣義公務員、立法院職員都沒有問題但是唯一就是立法院的助理這個部分可能要補充規範另外講到國家機密就是剛才講到的這個部分而且我們國家機密保護法"},{"start":11949.881,"end":11963.459,"text":"立法院也有為立法院處理機密的規範法院怎麼樣審理機密案件監察院怎麼調查機密案件懲戒法院怎麼樣審理機密案件他都有他的程序但是我查了一下就是監察院在辦理這個"},{"start":11964.881,"end":11981.526,"text":"有關機密保護法有另外定的作業辦法這是國安機密保護法要監察院、立法院和司法院都要定的各級法院其實也有定立法院沒有,立法院本來就散見在今天附的資料也有執宣刑事法案、立法院、組織法案都有一些所謂機密運作規定的規範也就是說"},{"start":11983.035,"end":11998.291,"text":"行政機關不能拿著機密就可以豁免監督喔機密不是不能觸碰的耶機密是對於不能知道的人才叫機密對我本來就有權審理或處理這個案件的人像法官"},{"start":11999.272,"end":12019.644,"text":"他處理機密外洩當然可以啊那對他來講不是他只是必須第一個要要動特殊程序要遵守保密規範那保密規範要違反他現在有現在其實刑法都有處罰規定國安機密保護法也有處罰規定那如果立法院怕把他搬進來通通搬過來用也可以那行政機關怎麼樣防避的像這個保密諸位辦法"},{"start":12021.052,"end":12043.638,"text":"一樣搬進來用就是說行政機關能用法院能用的立法院通通也可以用同樣碰到機密人家能解決為什麼立法院就不能解決我們就要擔心立法院不能解決泄密的問題然後要另外做局另外就是說你不能行使這個權利我覺得這樣是就太過頭了第三有關私人部門我同意有些很多教授講"},{"start":12046.104,"end":12065.266,"text":"在觸碰到私人領域的部分確實很有爭議但是我覺得 如果第一部分我們謹慎一點我是覺得 立法院調查權初步行政調查權規範應該是中央政府 部隊 國營事業 政府捐助的法人還有至少和政府有巨額採購的廠商依照政府採購法這些規定"},{"start":12067.007,"end":12095.222,"text":"他雖然是私人 現在跟牽涉政府有巨額採購他該不該接受監督 我覺得應該接受監督啦他雖然是私人 我覺得第一步可以把他降因為我們當然很怕立法院有可能會濫用職權啊 隨便問企業啊叫什麼台商的媒體僱主來修理我覺得這個當然大家會有這個疑慮 我覺得這個東西這給我30秒先 對所以我覺得在這個部分呢我覺得是第一部分可以謹慎一點 然後我們再慢慢"},{"start":12096.345,"end":12096.605,"text":"政府採購法"},{"start":12110.253,"end":12132.54,"text":"其實有關那個剛才講到的私人營業秘密的問題你看那個政府資訊公開法我們政府資訊公開法對個人隱私、個人秘密還有公私的秘密他都說什麼樣他不是說都不能公開他凡是牽涉到重大公益的時候牽涉到人民生命財產安全還有他個人同業的情況下政府是要公開的"},{"start":12134.352,"end":12162.971,"text":"政府對民眾尚且如此政府對立法院的要求立法院本來就有監督行政的職責立法院要求他為什麼他這樣拒絕不是很奇怪對民眾都可以公開了但是這關鍵就在於要跟公益有重大的關係而且要牽涉人民生命身體財產有重大關聯性我覺得這個這個應該要注意那最後就是說最後做個小結論就是說我覺得國會調查在立法院看好像讓我感覺像什麼現在有點像那個社工號籠你就寫那個業工號籠"},{"start":12164.588,"end":12189.294,"text":"以前我們看了20年、30年國會在追求調查權大家覺得調查權是龍我追求今天有機會吊在這裡大家有機會把它立法結果有各種理由說國會不能行使這個權利真的龍出現有機會出現的時候大家看到反而害怕他我覺得這個心態可能要也是要做一點調整今天報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":12191.971,"end":12214.09,"text":"好 謝謝我們黎副研究員我們這邊時間先暫時休息一下等那個莊瑞雄委員過來協助接替主持我們請我們的林俊宏林律師稍微等一下那等一下那個莊委員他要過來那這個時間我們不然先休息先休息5分鐘讓莊委員過來接替主持"},{"start":12228.777,"end":12229.558,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12259.025,"end":12266.855,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12304.129,"end":12304.149,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12357.148,"end":12358.088,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12529.102,"end":12532.044,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家好"},{"start":12556.553,"end":12573.121,"text":"那大家聽了一天喔一個上午其實蠻辛苦的那本來表列我是最後一個啦所以後來又待會兩位委員要再補充那我還是快速的說明一下喔那我想從昨天我有過來昨天大概會談的都從585開始談起啦"},{"start":12575.962,"end":12588.678,"text":"我想國會調查權這件事情從4585號解釋我自己認為已經算是清楚了我個人認為585講的其實蠻清晰的然後在後面的補充的46274729一直在補充下來其實我們在於整個國會調查權能夠調查的"},{"start":12594.325,"end":12607.781,"text":"應該說國會擁有調查權這件事情這個調查權的性質還是一個輔助性的性質還是個集體的權利這些我想是一個比較明確的一個答案可是在這邊甚至比較大的問題點在於是調查權能夠行使的範圍到底在哪裡"},{"start":12608.822,"end":12629.762,"text":"那其實昨天我大概有提到因為我們畢竟還是一個五權體制啦那在4729之後也講得都很清楚五權體制之下我們對於公務員的不法或者是相關的違私的部分他是監察權的範圍對於司法偵查的案件、司法審判的個案的部分他是司法權的範圍跟檢察官的權責"},{"start":12632.805,"end":12657.663,"text":"在這樣子的脈絡底下我們的國會調查權它必然是只會限縮大幅被限縮在你相關的國會立法權的範圍內當然我們國會有一個特別的權利是彈劾總統的權利除非在這一塊有要行使這個部分我上次昨天也有提到是有所缺漏的所以除了這個部分以外我覺得在範圍的部分我想大家要先確認清楚"},{"start":12658.283,"end":12678.423,"text":"那我想回到今天的提案的議題的核心那今天議題核心主要會涉及到就是說如果調查事項涉及到公司部門的國家安全和國家核心技術的部分要怎麼處理那回歸到剛剛提到的一個最大的原則如果在調查 國會在行使調查權的時候只要不是"},{"start":12679.304,"end":12705.855,"text":"不是參加立法上的需求或者是他行使他憲法上所遵御職權的需求的部分公部門在這個範圍內應該是可以拒絕提出的那只要他所要求的部分跟憲法賦予立法院的職權沒有重大關聯性或者是這個部分是屬於國家機關獨立行使職權的部分或者是大法官所特別提到行政特權的部分這些部分應該都賦予我們的行政機關某個程度的一個拒絕的權利"},{"start":12706.755,"end":12734.548,"text":"那當然在這個部分大法官也有特別提到說如果這個部分有爭議怎麼辦我想我們的國內的憲政體制是清楚的喔你要嘛就找法院嘛那當然我們有個院具的協調的部分那這個部分都是一個很明確的一個權利所以這個部分的話其實相對來說是清楚的那另外的問題就是司部門的部分該如何去解決那司部門的部分的話當然在之前昨天大概有非常多的討論啦那都會有一些涉及到基本權利或者是"},{"start":12736.309,"end":12764.511,"text":"也有拒絕證言權的部分這個部分我覺得不再多說可是接下來要討論的是說如果說我們要進行調查我們的制度是什麼我們在目前的草案裡面大概都會提到一個點就是秘密會議就是要走秘密會議的模式秘密會議在現在也是有只是秘密會議的規範到底是什麼其實我在這一次的草案裡面其實都沒有看得非常的清楚因為"},{"start":12765.231,"end":12780.381,"text":"我看不到的是說到底我們什麼時候要開秘密會議什麼時候要開啟秘密會議開啟秘密會議的標準是什麼誰可以要來發動要不要開啟秘密會議那如果真正開啟或是沒有開啟我中間發現秘密的會議的時候我們要怎麼樣去轉換"},{"start":12781.246,"end":12805.742,"text":"那如果對大家對於要不要開秘密會議有所爭議的時候我們要怎麼處理這一些很程序上的事項其實在目前的觀察裡面我覺得是我們可能要再想一下的部分因為我們在這個制度的操作上我們既然要同意有這個制度的時候我們就要想清楚是怎麼樣進行操作那剛剛有提到的部分是國家機關的部分有一套它的標準"},{"start":12807.123,"end":12821.158,"text":"當然沒有講得很清楚我們國家機密法28條有規定說立法院依法行使職權涉及國家機密者除經解密不可提供或答覆但其以秘密會議的部分的方式可以進行這個是稍微有規定那可是如果民間呢"},{"start":12822.284,"end":12842.431,"text":"民間怎麼辦今天一個民間單位一個假設就講台積電好了台積電真的被大家叫來了台積電來跟大家講說欸我覺得這個部分我不適合公聽不適合公開我們想要走秘密會議我們的委員們覺得說欸我不這麼覺得喔我覺得這個要讓大家知道"},{"start":12843.997,"end":12858.362,"text":"這個部分我們要怎麼進行你如何去權衡臺積電針對這個秘密的希望的維護的部分跟我們國會調查權的行使的部分要怎麼去進行我覺得這個程序規範大家要先想清楚"},{"start":12859.742,"end":12878.892,"text":"針端解決必然在現在法制裡面我們還是可以透過法院我們可能要停下來或者是要協調法院在這個部分怎麼做判斷它必須要有一個明確的標準在目前的規範裡面我看不到一個明確的標準尤其是涉及到民間人士的時候私人的部分的時候"},{"start":12883.6,"end":12901.475,"text":"秘密會議進行的調查方式為了要請秘密會議當然是有值得保護的秘密在值得保護的秘密的狀況下我們必須要確保秘密不會外流秘密不會從中流出所以在這種狀況下秘密會議我們不能單單相信"},{"start":12902.756,"end":12902.776,"text":"民進黨黨團"},{"start":12918.26,"end":12928.795,"text":"所提供的條文就是說你來參與密會的時候當然你要簽切結書然後你要禁止提供攜帶相關的通訊用品通訊或電子用品他在175頁的時候講得更詳細剛剛前面幾位先進有帶到這個條文"},{"start":12933.562,"end":12933.982,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12958.056,"end":12982.345,"text":"保護的時候當然你就要有相關的保護措施那我目前觀察到的草案的條文在這個部分相對來說是一個比較完備跟清楚的那第二個部分是當然我們在秘密的維護上除了在現場的維護以外我們當然也要禁止或者是限制期出嘛因為你在裡面維護你再讓人家帶走外面沒有辦法維護它其實就沒有任何一個保密的效果"},{"start":12982.705,"end":12999.102,"text":"在這種狀況下其實為我們立法院的職權刑事法第50條的規定確實也明白地講了說其實你就不能把他吸離場那這樣子的問題會涉及到如果我們的委員們真的不管了我就是要帶出去那怎麼辦"},{"start":13000.538,"end":13028.541,"text":"那這個另外的就是我們要設置我們接下來的自律規範我們像這種如果委員就啊不行了我就是要帶走說實在的委員要把他帶走在場的很多的議事人員誰攔得住他沒有人攔得住他頂多有人出來開記者會說誰把東西帶走了那這個時候我們是不是要賦予特定的法律效果我們有沒有要處理除了單純的自律送紀律委員會以外那紀律委員會其實在我的觀察裡面我們國內的立法院的紀律委員會我好像沒有看到太多的的的案子跑出來"},{"start":13029.264,"end":13049.149,"text":"那在這種觀察之下,是不是要其他的部分來處理?有沒有罰款?或者是說,真的因為這樣子後面發生了所謂的洩密事件的時候有沒有可能會設計一個舉證責任導致的這種設計方式來做相關的處罰或對應?我覺得可以想想看,我覺得這個是可以想想看的"},{"start":13051.005,"end":13071.324,"text":"當然在內部的部分的話 如果你是用電池記錄如果進行的話我相信我們在這邊所接觸的國家機密其實不會比私人企業更輕微都是很嚴重的一些國家機密那我覺得這個部分大家可以是想想我覺得大家現在都很喜歡參考台積電啦台積電他們對於資訊不落地的安管 資安的管理模式"},{"start":13072.325,"end":13084.915,"text":"當然那需要成本可是我覺得立法院真的也可以好好地思考看看這件事情尤其涉及到秘密會議的時候這個最基本的設計我覺得應該是很需要的那當然還有後者我們開完會之後開完會離開之後"},{"start":13087.694,"end":13087.714,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13104.434,"end":13122.07,"text":"委員來參與委員會的委員他們確實接觸到國家機密可是我們對於委員的後面的行程他是一個機密的接觸者而且我想誰來參加大家都是清楚的在這種狀況下如果要竊取機密的人或者是要重取得機密的人我想這些都是很好的目標啦"},{"start":13122.791,"end":13145.929,"text":"那如果這一些的委員出境到臺灣以外的國家或者到敵國去我想這些人都有非常高的風險因為可能是利誘可能是威脅可能是限制你人身安全或者是各種方式來從你身上取得機密所以在這種狀況下其實要思考的是不是我們對於這一些機密接觸者或者是機密的擁有者"},{"start":13146.937,"end":13147.117,"text":"立法委員"},{"start":13163.619,"end":13188.363,"text":"是不是也應該要設置相關的規範也就是出入境管理就是你對於機密接觸之後你的出入境管理應該也要進一步的規範那這個部分我只有觀察到的是我們在關係文書的第112頁的部分有這樣子的一個條文那可是這個條文目前只有看到報備啦至於細節的部分好像沒有不夠完整喔然後最後我是建議這個部分還是要有救責的部分再30秒很快就結束那"},{"start":13189.952,"end":13212.403,"text":"既然有調查權你要取得權利那相對應來說如果你洩密或者是資訊的漏出的話就應該要負相對應的責任所以我剛剛才會可是洩密這件事情其實真的很難去處理很難去追究因為抓不到那所以也許剛剛提的想法是說在某個程度真的出現洩密事件之後"},{"start":13213.531,"end":13213.832,"text":"莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":13241.229,"end":13265.12,"text":"謝謝主席我們在場學者專家還有我們列席的官員我想幾次公聽會下來雖然意見有所不同但是它還是有價值的那如何去落實國會的一個調查權還有聽證權來有效的監督行政部門那從這幾次的一個公聽會裡面本期一直在強調就是說國會調查它必須要有界限"},{"start":13266.363,"end":13267.644,"text":"公聽會８事由：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會８"},{"start":13287.855,"end":13291.46,"text":"而不是讓人民被迫表態或以藐視國會經院會通過以後就會來送交檢調這個都太過於"},{"start":13301.952,"end":13302.192,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":13320.999,"end":13345.065,"text":"在發動這個調查權的時候 私人或者司法人或者重要機密等等那這一些隱私啊 這個其實到底會不會被揭露或者外洩的一個疑慮或怎麼樣在保密的事項下都保護 這個其實啊我們在兩兆啊 不管是為哪一方戰隊來提供這些法律的一個意見的時候啊 真的特別要去"},{"start":13347.081,"end":13362.979,"text":"緊盛的去做一個思考本期要講的就是說不要太高估立法院啦真的不要選舉都很厲害啦但是呢制定這些法令的時候還是需要學者專家我們列席官員的這些專業的知識大家共同來思考第8屆林佳龍有提過"},{"start":13364.229,"end":13383.242,"text":"沒有共識第9屆我跟顧立雄我們也共同提案啦還是社會沒有共識啊不是我們人少是因為社會沒有共識我為什麼說不要高估立法院呢各位把它想想看喔你像比如我就先不我就不再去談這個什麼大法官的一個解釋了你去看看我們如果真的要落實國會調查跟聽證的話"},{"start":13386.222,"end":13411.776,"text":"剛剛各位學者專家所提到的整個國安餘力的部分你怎麼辦以立法院來講本身的資安我們的防衛能力就有很大的一個問題這個我就自己我都跟我們這個周秘書長我也去跟他去諮詢的時候要求他趕快去加強資安這個是整個世界各國相當重視的一個國安的問題我們台灣我們這個國家遭受網路攻擊的次數在亞太地區我們第一名"},{"start":13413.777,"end":13423.12,"text":"你據國際研究機構的一個評估光在去年112年我國遭受攻擊事件急劇增加了80%每秒鐘將近1.5萬次的一個攻擊發生那依據整個數位發展部的一個事前聯訪監控的一個報告裡面政府機關資安聯訪的情資在2月份一共發生的47912件意圖對政府部門發動資安攻擊那"},{"start":13438.084,"end":13445.468,"text":"如何去有效的確保整個資安維護的一個事項我們在資通安全管理辦法第11條就明定了你公務機關應該設置資安長然後他成立了相關推動組織跟推動相關的一個工作但是以目前立法院組織法跟相關職長來看的話"},{"start":13457.814,"end":13481.284,"text":"我們根本就連這個相關的那個資通安全的維護工作的主責單位都還沒有啊所以各位真的是太看得起我們立法院了討論絕對是一件好事我認為在這一部法令的一個啊這個整個國會調查的部分我們在討論的過程裡面啊那個最大的一個邊際射程效應就是第一個先逼迫立法院把這些治安安全的工作先去把它做好"},{"start":13482.403,"end":13497.593,"text":"那第二個我要提的就是說那個射程跟那個手段真的大家必須要大家要很謹慎剛剛我提到治安的部分你就說像譬如說我們都討在立法院都非常討厭秘密會議啊這個會議的內容會去外洩的一個問題啊但是我們也不要去忽略了來自於網路上的這些的一個攻擊啊所以本席啊我們期待這次國會改革修法過程裡面一併"},{"start":13508.968,"end":13511.269,"text":"立法院至少會檢到說治安讓他可以更去做一個強化那我為什麼一直在講說那個應該限縮整個國會調查裡面你這個對象還有那個強制力這個強制手段這個部分你不能過度的一個擴張我們立法院形象已經夠差了這種擴權"},{"start":13532.495,"end":13539.597,"text":"這種擴權的部分不要為了大家好好講到一個說國會改革要講得很大聲這才是很衝的一定是這樣子嗎未必 未必藐視國會 這個很空泛的各位先把第23條裡面除了那四項以外你要限制人民的基本自由"},{"start":13554.025,"end":13573.51,"text":"那個都要用法律去 你不能去違反比例原則那我們現在就又增加了一個藐視國會又創設了一個憲法第23條裡面所沒有的一個事項裡面這個就有點超過了尤其是你看歷屆的大法官解釋裡面 你在729號裡面解釋裡面對於司法機關的當然偵查中不敢"},{"start":13578.371,"end":13582.593,"text":"我相信立法院也不敢就算偵查完以後也不是國會愛怎麼調查就要怎麼調查也必須要立行使憲法上職權有重大關聯那個目的也不是立法院說我愛哪裡範圍要多廣就多廣那你也要非常特定這個範圍非常特定所以以這部分來看的話不是我沒有看到任何一個政黨說反對國會改革反對聽證跟調查"},{"start":13606.94,"end":13623.855,"text":"我們要的是說 大家謹慎來討論 這個射程真的要那麼廣嗎 要到私人嗎立法院是有言論免責權的地方 立法院是可以胡說八道的老百姓來了以後 你這樣藐視國會沒有據實陳述 做成決議送檢調亂掉了 四年接受老百姓審判一次 檢驗一次"},{"start":13634.462,"end":13656.757,"text":"國會議員是要這樣子喔那現在不是那是國會的反撲來調查私人的或者私人企業私人機構的國會有這麼大的一個權限這到最後都被逼迫政治上的一個表態這個太為難人民了立法委員我認為沒有這麼大國會調查權不管是聽證或者調會權"},{"start":13658.118,"end":13671.084,"text":"民主進步黨我們也贊成只是大家再來討論一下這個手段跟這個對象是不是要無限的一個擴張更期待涉及到國安的部分各個部門尤其是國會現在沒有資格跟人家談這些了你整個治安都完全都還沒有建立好所以貿然的這樣子把範圍過度的一個擴張的話"},{"start":13677.807,"end":13678.687,"text":"好 謝謝我們莊瑞雄委員接下來有請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":13717.024,"end":13742.349,"text":"主席各位先進以及我們在場各位學者那我們今天在討論的這個關於國會改革那主要是在落實國會調查跟聽證權這兩個然後說是要有效監督行政機關那我們還是要回到就是這一套憲法的一個設計事實上整個憲法從大法官解釋325號"},{"start":13745.269,"end":13750.571,"text":"325號解釋想得很清楚基本上這個調查權在憲法95條包括96條的調查權這三個字在憲法出現調查權的是在監察委員的這一塊所以在監察院存在的一個情況之下那大法官認為這個調查權仍然是專屬於這個監察委員的一個權利"},{"start":13770.683,"end":13774.128,"text":"他直接說專屬在大法官解釋說那325號解釋至今也沒有被推翻縱使後續的585號以及791號解釋他們都一樣去重申了這個調查權在監察院的這樣的一個對接"},{"start":13786.663,"end":13794.767,"text":"立法院當然在憲法的57條67條有講到文件調閱權但這東西你可以看到大幅大幅改變對立法院的文件調閱權事實上大法官解釋看起來大幅大幅對立法委員沒有信任"},{"start":13805.433,"end":13811.558,"text":"三百二十五號是在說什麼三百二十五號就是這個立法院的調查權在監察院這裡有八五五八五是說你如果要審視這個調查權的時候你有幾個必須是要排除的包括考試院他們對人事的一個評價包括司法院他們對於整個判決的一個評議"},{"start":13833.23,"end":13842.075,"text":"這個大概是在文券調閱權的一個限制那後來這個791號的大法官解釋也講了729號我剛剛講錯729號的大法官解釋他也認為說你縱使可以去調閱這個偵查的案件也必須要限縮在他們已經偵查完畢已經偵查完畢而且咧如果還涉及到另案的"},{"start":13861.022,"end":13888.935,"text":"這樣的話也可以等到另案也調查完畢那立法院才可以去行使這個文件調閱權所以在729號所以這看起來大多數對立法委員是真的沒信任因為這個沒信任的來自於729號他也剛才直接講理由了理由他說的對他說你文件調閱你自吸的資訊你使用應限於行使憲法職權之必要並維護關係人之權利包括名譽隱私"},{"start":13891.076,"end":13914.818,"text":"這就是營業秘密所以就剛才說的我們要如何落實我們立法院在行使權力的時候我們掌握了一些秘密還是說我們所去揭露我們在揭秘的時候我們是不是會涉及到隱私涉及到他人的名譽這部分實際上要做注意的這大部分我都說了所以我覺得今天我們如果真的要大家要啟動修憲"},{"start":13915.939,"end":13933.509,"text":"然後讓立法委員可以增大我們的權力,我們要有調查權我們要跟監察委員有調查權,而且我們這個調查權我們還希望擴及到對私人領域的部分,我們也要調查權我具體建議,這樣要修憲的時候,有些東西應該要拿掉就是未來立法委員應該要取消言論免責權"},{"start":13941.634,"end":13953.681,"text":"取消言論免責權回到大法官解釋435號435號的大法官對立法院的言論免責權很好很好他就擴張他就說讀了立法院委員的發言質詢提案表決甚至你黨團協商你公聽會發言都可以在言論免責權的保護範圍所以你看出來大法官的用意對立法委員質詢就是說讓你盡量講"},{"start":13970.277,"end":13990.388,"text":"你可以去用講的你講我用言論免責權保護你但是調查這一塊大法官解釋依憲法的一個架構下還不夠信任立法委員有辦法行使這樣的權利所以他把這塊的權利把它獨立起來所以這整個架構所以我覺得要說這個立法委員你現在說我要擴權到調查權的時候很簡單的那應該我們就是放棄言論免責權"},{"start":13997.071,"end":14009.434,"text":"否則你可以想像 立法委員有言論免責權 我又要行使調查權 我的調查又要針對私人來調查輸定公司 輸定企業 我都要人調查 我的言論免責權我可以亂講我講不服這人的 因為我言論免責 所以你看現在有的立委他就什麼事情就連連看 這人那人 亂看 看起來大家三個沒辦法 因為言論免責"},{"start":14027.841,"end":14049.407,"text":"真正立法委員有辦法透過他的質詢 把事情揭露 把事情調查完畢也是過去有很多案例 我要說馬王政爭的時候當時立法委員也是用我們既有的權力 用透過質詢台的質詢管碧玲委員可以揭露行政權監聽國會"},{"start":14051.629,"end":14054.955,"text":"劉兆豪委員把當時的特政組 把當時的黃世民 檢察總長 要做的事情用質詢的過程問得一清二楚"},{"start":14063.188,"end":14070.814,"text":"所以就是說我們透過質詢會有辦法每件事情查明、每件事情了解你現在沒辦法透過每一個質詢你就說我要擴權、我要有調查權這樣很簡單的具體建議修憲的時候要有調查權就放棄立法委員的言論免責以上是我一個建議 謝謝"},{"start":14084.807,"end":14111.949,"text":"好 謝謝現在所有學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢接下來進行政府機關代表發言那麼目前我們有收到有三份包括來自立法院的書面報告以及行政院的書面報告以及司法院的書面報告那麼請問這三個機關是不是有書面報告以外的意見要做口頭補充"},{"start":14113.393,"end":14113.974,"text":"謝謝,我都很簡單的"},{"start":14144.233,"end":14168.415,"text":"謝謝主席那因為時間上的關係大概因為今天大家先者參加還有經過充分的討論以後其實事實上這個有關這個議題在585號還有627729這些大法官會議解釋大家充分的嘗試那麼大法官都肯認立法院有這個調查權當然包括調閱文件"},{"start":14169.036,"end":14169.056,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14183.803,"end":14211.277,"text":"並不包括使用刑事法的一個手段那有關627、729這兩號解釋也說明行政特權或獨立行使職權像偵查我們用一個金門陸船落水的這個事件這個像在上在偵查中或者是海巡有沒有需要其他應保密的這個行動特權來做一個實際上的一個案例所以這個部分可以免受立法機關的調閱文件"},{"start":14213.058,"end":14230.937,"text":"那麼有關本部的結論就是國會調查權行使的方法跟程序要符合憲法原則那麼發生機關執權爭議的時候應該要尋學商那麼或者是以法律明定相關的要件跟程序那麼由司法機關來申請解決之"},{"start":14233.7,"end":14252.459,"text":"那麼相關的議事程序．調查方法．也應該符合憲法所要求的民主原則．權力分立跟制衡原則．比例原則．法律明確性原則．跟正當的法律程序相關法則的制定．也應該更審慎為之．來符合我國民主法制的憲法精神謝謝 以上好 謝謝我們次長的發言"},{"start":14257.808,"end":14284.679,"text":"請問還有沒有其他機關代表要做補充沒有的話我們今日公聽會的發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天各位所有的發言內容與書面意見以及委員審發會所提書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員以及本日初列席人員參考本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15801","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbf7460912bad191e9ca3bf586b49d470b3be8d109af184be4f2e14d0e1915375c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-11","start_time":"2024-04-11T08:31:04+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-11T13:41:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18596,"委員發言時間":"08:31:04 - 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十八條之一及"},{"start":1343.729,"end":1345.367,"text":"三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":1481.323,"end":1482.381,"text":"三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":1755.196,"end":1756.254,"text":"三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":1864.36,"end":1864.58,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1870.694,"end":1873.356,"text":"條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案案。」"},{"start":1897.771,"end":1923.868,"text":"二．審查．一．行政院函請審議《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。二．本院委員鄭天才等21人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。三．本院委員賴瑞榮等16人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。四．本院委員黃婕等22人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":1924.508,"end":1952.278,"text":"五（本院委員吳麗華等16人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。六（本院委員郭玉琴等16人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》案。七（本院委員李月琳等17人擬具《野生動物保育法第十九條、第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案案。八（本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具《野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案案》案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1957.067,"end":1959.388,"text":"條文修正草案條文修正草案條文修正草案條文修正草案"},{"start":1982.009,"end":2000.424,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好感謝召委安排今天的法案審查本期提出遠洋漁業條例部分條例修正草案主要是鑒於2022年美國國家海洋暨大氣總署發布國際漁業管理改善的報告"},{"start":2001.405,"end":2023.82,"text":"台灣首次在非法漁業及混獲海歸的不明譽版當上榜我國遠洋漁業條例需要進一步修法台灣自從2015年遭受歐盟列入打擊非法未報告及不受規範的漁業不合作國家警告名單後政府積極修訂漁業刪法然而過了七個月"},{"start":2024.58,"end":2042.209,"text":"歐盟執委會派員來臺訪視,仍然認定臺灣執法鬆散,強度密度皆下降。此外,包括綠色和平組織、英國環境正義基金會都曾針對臺灣非法捕魚、人口販運及強迫漁工勞動等問題發布調查報告。"},{"start":2046.209,"end":2060.994,"text":"並且在2020年在美國發表同工及強迫勞動製品清單台灣遠洋漁獲也被列入導致美國買家反彈政府必須加速改善因此本席提出遠洋漁業"},{"start":2063.034,"end":2077.704,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 本席提案方向與行政院版本相同,包括增訂十四條之一及三十九條之一,規定涉及非法,未報告或不受規範漁撈作業之漁貨物或漁產品不得進口。"},{"start":2083.171,"end":2110.241,"text":"以及因應國際條約等需求主管機關得公告限制特定國家之全部或部分漁貨或漁產品不得進口並增訂相關法則等。另外配合農委會改制為農業部修正第三條主管機關名稱以及第四十七條增訂修正條文及實施日期。懇請各位委員支持。謝謝大家。謝謝。"},{"start":2114.974,"end":2116.096,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2126.365,"end":2147.652,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":2155.934,"end":2162.196,"text":"條之一及第三十八條之一修正草案,以加強我國國籍漁船以及對出口業者的管理,並展現我國對於打擊非法的漁撈者決心。」"},{"start":2182.625,"end":2196.772,"text":"條之一、第三十八條之一做的新增或修訂的部分特別說明在第三十八條之一也就是最近一年內違反了前項規定兩次以上者"},{"start":2197.372,"end":2199.834,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":2217.011,"end":2235.745,"text":"其他國家、國際漁業組織或其他經濟整合組織通報涉及非法及未報告或不受規範漁撈作業的漁貨物或漁產品之流通,所以我們明定該等貨物不得進口。」"},{"start":2236.345,"end":2265.419,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":2267.875,"end":2268.896,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員接下來我們請黃婕委員做其案說明"},{"start":2284.413,"end":2309.4,"text":"謝謝主席各位主席跟各位同仁大家好在這次的野保的修正案裡面因為我認為台灣是一座非常生態資源豐富的島嶼我們需要大家共同來守護但是這個野保法已經11年沒有修正了跟現在的情況確實不合時宜那我希望這個法規可以隨著我們保育的需求越來越高可以滾動式的調整"},{"start":2309.94,"end":2313.122,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":2329.55,"end":2346.316,"text":"規範是過於寬鬆的,所以會導致動物在逃逸的時候這個管領人沒有辦法及時通報或是積極地圍捕,而且過去野保法在制定的時候並沒有充分地尊重原住民的傳統文化,然後剝奪了他們在非營利自用的狩獵權。"},{"start":2347.916,"end":2364.473,"text":"所以希望在這一次的修正當中來把這些權利都放進去而且過去在查獲這些保育類野生動物的產製品的時候對於犯案的工作物以及相關的物品的所有權的歸屬並沒有明確的認定所以會導致檢調跟法院在偵審的時候舉證很困難"},{"start":2370.179,"end":2385.459,"text":"條文修正草案 案 為了解決以上種種的問題這一次提了四個修正的內容第一個我們必須全面的禁用售假這個我相信是大家對於野生動物保育的共識再來第二個人為的管理的"},{"start":2386.34,"end":2406.176,"text":"保育類野生動物如果有發生溢濕的狀況管理人的通報違補相關的規定跟法則必須要放進去再來第三個必須要開放原住民族非營利自用的狩獵活動原本是由事前的申請修正為事後報備即可"},{"start":2406.937,"end":2423.811,"text":"再來未來如果有查獲保育類野生動物跟產製品的時候得以不問所有人就來沒收犯罪的工具物以及相關的物品以上是我的提案說明希望大家可以共同支持一起來進一步保育野生動物謝謝謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請五麗華委員做提案說明"},{"start":2448.737,"end":2451.64,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":2467.675,"end":2490.51,"text":"八零三號解釋,因此在第二十一條之一增列了非營利自用的要件,納入原住民族獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍,並且改採被查制,原住民獵捕野生動物以行政處罰取代刑罰。同時呢,院版的草案"},{"start":2491.03,"end":2511.79,"text":"也將全面禁用獸匣作為本次修法的重點。不過我們在第十九條的立法說明中有看到本法所稱獸匣是依據動物保護法所定義的列具而不包含原住民的傳統列具基於大法官的解釋對原住民狩獵權的維護"},{"start":2513.631,"end":2530.991,"text":"及民間社會提倡的人道考量對於全面禁用售甲本席予以尊重,但是仍需考量法令落實的操作過程可能會有的疏漏,進而在本席所提出的版本予以修正,重點"},{"start":2532.372,"end":2559.738,"text":"參見修正動議第十九條及第二十一條之一（本席第十九條修正文字除了一到六款的列補方法外新增第七款使用原住民族傳統列據以及第八款使用授甲將原住民族的列據及授甲分別處理並在二十一條之一的修正文字中將第七款的原住民族列據增列為處罪化範圍"},{"start":2561.098,"end":2581.862,"text":"條文修正草案．第十六條之一、第三十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":2586.483,"end":2614.296,"text":"因此本席於第21條之一增列第三項希望原住民族人使用壽甲得有兩年的免罰寬限輔導期使主管機關檢警以及原住民族人得有充裕的列具汰換以及改善時間以完備本次修法尊重原住民族傳統狩獵文化的主要精神懇請立院同仁以及行政部門予以支持謝謝"},{"start":2619.666,"end":2622.742,"text":"謝謝吳麗華委員接下來我們請呂玉玲委員做提案說明"},{"start":2632.402,"end":2661.403,"text":"謝謝主席。針對本席的提案是野保法的第十九條跟第二十一條跟二十一條之一的條文修正草案。本席與其他委員共十七人以強化野生動物保育為原則認為應該杜絕殘忍的獵具來使用並應該特殊緊急的情況之下及原住民狩獵傳統的文化中取得平衡點所以在第十九條的部分"},{"start":2661.863,"end":2667.605,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":2686.091,"end":2714.71,"text":"條的國際趨勢,另外在第二十一條跟二十一條之一若是野生動物有危害農、魚、牧、業的發展跟民眾的生命以及考量原住民的傳統狩獵文化,可以例外的來使用第十九條的第一項、第三項跟第五項較具有人道精神的獵捕規定以促進尊重動物生命的觀念。"},{"start":2715.891,"end":2717.552,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":2738.015,"end":2753.851,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":2756.294,"end":2778.209,"text":"他倘若是危險度較高的野生動物溢失的時候恐怕會危及民眾生命財產因此我的提案內容便是針對第31條中的野生動物要區分類別如果是危險程度較高的野生動物應該備託相關的資料例如針對野生動物的標示方式和溢失之後的維補計畫再報請主管機關備查之"},{"start":2782.312,"end":2809.79,"text":"審查之。」此外,我們的提案也針對院版目前的第37條的積極微補提出一個更明確的定義以及指引,透過邀集專業人士的協助微補,才可以在微補過程之中,如果有可能造成的民眾損傷或是財產損失來降到最低,也可以避免當初六福村廢廢事件中因為當初的計劃不周而造成的後續爭議。以上的提案說明,懇請各位委員支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2814.104,"end":2820.975,"text":"一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":2833.408,"end":2860.287,"text":"主席、各位委員那今天在立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體會議那大便審查有關於行政院所提的遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正案及審查野生動物保育法部分條文修正案那還有剛才各位委員所提的各版本那以下"},{"start":2861.027,"end":2870.584,"text":"本部就相關的這些立法說明做一個概要的一個說明那首先針對漁業遠洋漁業條例的修正的部分那請各位看簡報"},{"start":2873.544,"end":2891.289,"text":"那整個遠洋漁業的修正那最主要大家都知道就是國際針對這些打擊IAU是大家國際上共同合作的部分那為了確保整個漁業資源的永續那我們國家過去在相關的遠洋漁業條例裡面第25條已經有針對"},{"start":2894.09,"end":2896.031,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":2911.496,"end":2931.503,"text":"那整個修正條文大概有三個部分,第一個部分是十四條,第二個部分是三十六條之一,還有一個部分就是施行日期。那第十四條之一最主要是針對IU的漁獲的部分,是不得進口的部分。那不得進口的漁獲或者相關的漁產資訊的話,我們由主管機關,就是由農業部來主動公告。"},{"start":2932.003,"end":2950.332,"text":"那第三十六條是規範他違反相關的條例的一個處罰那第一次違反的時候是處六百萬到三千萬的的一個罰環那如果重複違規的話是處九百到四千五百萬的部分那我們部裡面也分析了這樣子的一個"},{"start":2952.094,"end":2977.404,"text":"條文是不是對我們國內業者的影響那第一個部分我要跟各位委員說明就是我們捕到的漁民不會受到此條文的影響那因為最主要是這個條文是主要規範的對象是進口業者而且我們遠洋漁船所捕獲的漁獲物它不屬於進口的漁獲所以說對於我們的漁民是不會觸法那第二個部分就是過往在一些"},{"start":2978.524,"end":2994.441,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":2995.842,"end":3021.119,"text":"同時更可以保障我們漁民正當的漁貨的一個銷售的一個管道跟權益。那至於說整個的IOU的漁貨到底是哪一種是屬於IOU的漁貨那我們會針對相關的一個載運跟捕撈的資訊然後進口業者在購買漁貨的時候一定要去了解他的漁貨的合法性並需要參考公告資訊那最重要就是所謂的公告資訊那"},{"start":3023.342,"end":3041.712,"text":"我們在跟剛才委員所提到的各項版本裡面有一個重點就是剛才有委員提到的就是在相關的修正條例裡面就是有關於罰還的部分是希望能夠做一些重複重複重複違規的時候是希望有900萬降低到"},{"start":3043.453,"end":3063.568,"text":"八百萬的部分,那我們在這邊我們是建議能夠維持我們行政院版本,因為整個的一個再次的處罰的部分我們是跟出口的這個滑彎是一致性的,不會造成進口跟出口有不一樣的差別待遇。第二個部分是有關於相關的這些"},{"start":3065.106,"end":3090.364,"text":"重複的部分剛才也提到了那最後我要跟各位委員報告就是要確保IUE的漁貨不會進口然後避免市場不公平然後保障漁民的權益是我們農業部一直在長期致力在在推動的那我們希望說透過這樣的一個修法能夠把進口IUE的進口跟出口能夠讓這些IUE打擊的漁貨能夠不到進到台灣來然後我們也不會"},{"start":3091.305,"end":3092.326,"text":"條文修正草案條文修正草案的部分"},{"start":3106.374,"end":3110.415,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案"},{"start":3125.117,"end":3131.32,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例第十四條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案 條例第十四條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案 條例第十四條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案 條例第十四條"},{"start":3147.788,"end":3156.333,"text":"全面禁用授甲、保障原住民狩獵的權利及除罪化、強化野生動物飼主的責任、當我們稽查時擴大沒收犯罪物品的範圍。"},{"start":3164.704,"end":3183.884,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第"},{"start":3185.285,"end":3205.707,"text":"那未來修法通過了以後那不論是預防農損或是原住民狩獵這一不得使用授甲那剛才有提到的就是有部分的原住民是用山豬釣的部分那我們在19條的部分也有授權主管機關可以適時的公告相關的這些禁止使用這些列據那目前我們"},{"start":3206.428,"end":3217.969,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":3219.318,"end":3244.226,"text":"那修正動點是第二個部分是保障原住民狩獵權益及除罪化的部分那剛才也提到了就是目前的原住民的野保法是針對原住民的傳統文化寄宜跟可獵捕的野生動物那為了符合相關的原基法第十九條第三項的規定我們增加了非營利自用也可以獵捕野生動物"},{"start":3245.046,"end":3266.002,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":3272.927,"end":3288.732,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":3289.724,"end":3317.631,"text":"那修正重點第三個部分是有關於保育類野生動物溢濕的違補的費用他是由事主來負擔及提高未通報的一個罰則那現行的約法法裡面當野生動物溢濕的時候那事主未通報是有罰則的是一到五萬但是所有的違補費用都是由政府來買單那我們這次的修法就是可以所有溢濕保育類野生動物的時候"},{"start":3318.251,"end":3330.272,"text":"條文修正草案案 要及時通報的責任,那如果沒有及時通報的話,我們提高相關的划環到三萬到十五萬,同時違補收容及贊養的費用也規定是由事主來負擔。」"},{"start":3332.179,"end":3359.071,"text":"第四個修正重點是針對擴大沒收的一個範圍。那現行的野保法我們針對違法查獲的這些物品或工具如果不是屬於犯罪人所有的時候我們是沒辦法處理的。所以我們先這次的修法是犯罪的物品跟工具不管是不是犯罪人所有我們都可以來沒收來增加整個的犯罪成本有效的遏止相關的一個違法的一個作為。"},{"start":3360.111,"end":3379.596,"text":"那我們也比較了委員所提的這些版本那剛才委員也提到了就是主張不可全面禁用獸甲的部分那最主要就是因為整個動保法其實它在一百年就已經公告了禁止使用而且這個獸甲本身是具有強力的彈簧的這些鋸子狀的結構它對於動物本身會造成極嚴重的一個傷害"},{"start":3384.537,"end":3395.069,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":3403.052,"end":3429.12,"text":"那另外也有委員提到就是全面禁用金屬套索就是部分就是俗稱的山豬釣的部分那剛才也說了就是因為現在原住民的傳統狩獵或者是在接近山區的這些農民他為了防治這些山豬等野生動物所造成的農業的損失那勢必還是必須用適當的這些金屬的一個套索"},{"start":3429.58,"end":3455.692,"text":"但是我也跟各位委員說明了就是我們現在已經有有一些改良式的這些列據那這些列據我們也正在積極輔導我們的原住民部落的原住民以及我們山區的這些農民能夠來替換這樣的一個一個列據那在適當的時間以後因為第十九條有有授權主管機關和公道禁止列據的方式所以我們在一"},{"start":3456.892,"end":3468.499,"text":"就是一段過渡的這些輔導區去輔導他改用適當的一個改良式列具以後我們就可以去禁止相關的這些金屬套索所以他是有一段的一個緩衝期能夠來處理"},{"start":3470.933,"end":3492.422,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":3493.141,"end":3508.112,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十七條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3515.765,"end":3544.65,"text":"那另外委員有提到就是說像地方政府辦理保育類野生動物時增加審查的一個制度那在這邊也跟委員說明就是我們這一次條文的最主要目的就是本來是一般的野生動物但是野生動物我們會定期的檢討會有一部分可能會變成一個保育類動物那一般的野生動物已經在飼養牠的飼養都有合法的一個場所的一個查核"},{"start":3545.53,"end":3571.953,"text":"當它變成一個保育類動物的時候我們是採用備查的部分那委員所擔心的這些是不是有它的環境或是它飼養的這個相關的規範其實這個規範在其他的條文第34條已經有明定了就是飼養或繁殖保育類的野生動物的時候應該有適當的場所及設備如果說它升級成為野生動物就是保育類動物的時候那就會回到34條"},{"start":3573.114,"end":3596.624,"text":"條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":3599.105,"end":3621.823,"text":"那另外委員也提到就是有關於保育類首次違反不罰的部分那這邊其實大法官的8034解釋的部分是應該有一些不同強度的一些管理那原住民的狩獵生物的規範其實已經實施了12年那原住民已經透過各種的媒體"},{"start":3623.044,"end":3645.123,"text":"的資訊,那我們農業部,其實我們也針對原住民部列,我們其實有非常多的輔導的機制,我們也會擴大這樣的一個宣傳,所以其實已經沒有手勢違反不法的一個必要性,那我們還會積極的強調會去跟原住民相關的這些部落去做一個宣導,然後也敬請委員支持行政院的一個版本。"},{"start":3645.819,"end":3658.902,"text":"那為了符合世界保育的潮流然後強化野生動物的一個保護機制提升原住民傳統文化的尊重以及野生動物保護法的完善所以還請大院各位委員不吝支持與指正以上報告"},{"start":3665.385,"end":3692.63,"text":"好謝謝陳部長的報告那有關於原住民族委員會的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們討論事項我們有兩案我們就合併詢答但是分開處理委員質詢前原力做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員五分鐘必要時得延長一分鐘非本會委員四分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記首先我們請登記第一位林黛樺委員發言"},{"start":3695.919,"end":3697.814,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3705.128,"end":3708.489,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":3730.293,"end":3753.243,"text":"第三個會有具體的建議。」好,在2月27號總諮詢之後請農業部在3個月內嚴厲建立犬貓公益血庫規劃方案含逐年編列的預算來建立一套完善的動物捐血政策跟運作機制目前全台僅有國立屏東科技大學所提供的犬貓捐輸血液服務是唯一"},{"start":3753.943,"end":3778.957,"text":"條文修正草案案的全體管理機制的機構也是唯一合法提供捐輸血液的這樣的一個機構而它的產量就是整個現在市場的捐輸血液的5%而這5%是唯一合法的那本席在這個總質詢當中提到希望這樣的一個捐血的一個規劃呢有三個"},{"start":3779.958,"end":3798.648,"text":"特赦強調文明、落實道德以及鼓勵公益,強調文明是在犬貓公益學庫的機制定定公益學庫捐血的規範建構可行的服務生態。第二階段是學研合作的研發機制由屏東科技大學為起點,"},{"start":3799.528,"end":3815.829,"text":"竹年建立北中南示範雪庫平臺法人的軟體平臺技術支援。」這個第一個階段跟第二階段是可以合一的那為什麼我特別指定屏東科技大學其實農委會早就有做這要感謝在105年"},{"start":3818.051,"end":3836.269,"text":"這個農委會的主委是林聰賢林主委以及當時的防檢局施泰華施副局長雖然施副局長現在已經不在人世間但是我一定要感謝他也因為他大力支持這樣動物的捐血機制給屏東科技大學三年的計畫"},{"start":3837.33,"end":3866.603,"text":"之後平克大他自己獨立站起來現在能夠唯一可以跟國外尤其他是以整個美國的機制來放到我們國內而且他還因為我們國人都是喜歡養小犬比較小型規模的動寵物所以我們也符合國內的一個機制去建立了這建立8年的一個雪庫好那這個概念呢"},{"start":3868.68,"end":3891.965,"text":"但是呢我非常的失望你們確實在一個月後啊召開了這個建設國內寵物公益選庫的研商會議你們什麼做呢來看左邊你們的會議結論決議一二三重點就在那個三各校建制犬貓選庫模式推行方式及所需經費本據差異性以逐步完善各校示範選庫再透過經驗交流及經驗這個資源分享這句話的意思啊"},{"start":3898.226,"end":3914.146,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":3916.909,"end":3936.728,"text":"就補助冰箱,所以對於目前現況並無其他的配套,而且或是積極建設屬於政府自己本身的犬貓捐輸機制。而上次的這個會議討論的這個決議並不是本期在總執行當中所建立的所建議這個設立的犬貓血庫管理總部"},{"start":3937.649,"end":3964.668,"text":"與捐輸血液的推廣平台,而你們只是能完善學校的示範硬體,這樣根本無法建立一個完善的犬貓工藝血庫的計畫,也根本無法有效的向民眾推廣正確的犬貓捐輸血液的機制。」重點是什麼?犬貓不會自己來捐血啊!所以你這個總部還富有推廣,跟事主推廣啊!"},{"start":3966.243,"end":3990.184,"text":"那什麼叫做總部?什麼叫做平台?總部這邊我引用這個你們還委託這個平和大所做的報告我就用這個報告你們補助的報告什麼叫做總部你知道你們現在的第一步從這個環境的建構建立標準程序符合規範合適場地與軟硬體不是所有的大學學員都可以啊"},{"start":3990.985,"end":3997.754,"text":"我都知道其中有一個大學是跟非法的養殖場在合作的你們讓他就地合法"},{"start":3998.951,"end":4026.527,"text":"好再來你這個總部要做什麼你們現在要做工作分組啊財學檢驗管理供應快速企劃推廣資訊集集合包括重點營運服務你的血液血庫資訊的平台現在你有總部有平台你這當中就要建立你的數據的資料就要建立起來了然後呢這個建立犬貓血品的數位資料庫串聯各捐血中心合作醫院等"},{"start":4027.367,"end":4048.433,"text":"在招募跟推廣也是你的營運服務當中統籌捐血犬貓的招募活動並進行教育推廣跟企業合作,原則來講就正式的通過ISO跟TAF的認證成立財團法人動物血液基金會。好,什麼叫做平台?這個也是你們補助的一個報告。"},{"start":4050.691,"end":4052.112,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文"},{"start":4074.375,"end":4085.439,"text":"以及現在你們要建置的各受益相關大學的這個醫院包括所有的捐血保存供應使用這個是捐血的部分要到這邊來捐然後呢受血的部分呢各全國各地我要到哪裡啊來來輸血啊"},{"start":4092.341,"end":4104.605,"text":"全國各地經教育訓練合格的合作動物醫院。這要跟誰合作?跟我們全國獸醫師公會聯合會跟各縣市的獸醫師公會也就是說這個平台建立開始之後我現在就教導民眾跟合格的獸醫師醫院你們現在要捐輸血餘力都到這個平台來總部跟平台你才能量幣缺足劣幣啊"},{"start":4118.849,"end":4133.346,"text":"那我不知道而且呢這樣也給重點喔在這個合作推廣中也給予四組捐血的捐輸血液的正確管道勿再進行其他的不正當的來源訊息部長你怎麼看非常謝謝委員齁針對這個血庫的一個"},{"start":4136.972,"end":4165.502,"text":"所謂的總部跟平臺的這個系統那基本上我非常認同這樣的一個系統可是在考慮到捐血的部分我們有兩個重點要考慮第一個重點就是這些公學犬貓的福利我們要保障然後第二個就是血品也要保障所以說像屏東大學它本身它現在已經有這樣的一個機制那接下來就是這個總部跟這個平臺之間的串接那其實我們在獸醫師公會在開會的時候其實有討論到非常多的這些細節"},{"start":4166.502,"end":4166.962,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":4194.465,"end":4195.227,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4204.538,"end":4230.431,"text":"部長早部長我想進入我們今天的這個條文的詢答之前我還是想要先請教幾個時事題跟我們地方有比較相關的部長大概您很清楚最近因為這個氣候異常這幾年其實對於農民來講都是非常的辛苦我大概整理了一下全台灣大概從二月份開始從恆春南投嘉義"},{"start":4231.631,"end":4243.438,"text":"條文修正草案案件及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":4254.145,"end":4271.174,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六"},{"start":4271.834,"end":4273.715,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案件,包括龍眼、納瑪夏、青梅、水蜜桃等。"},{"start":4287.36,"end":4307.914,"text":"這個全球的環境劇烈變遷部長我要請教您就是那全台灣中南部其他各區的荔枝不開花都能夠得到了這個災損的補助高雄這一次的災損補助是不是也能夠達標那如果達標的話你們能不能承諾在最短的時間內將災損的經費來合撥呢"},{"start":4312.541,"end":4337.36,"text":"我跟委員說明就是高雄的部分我可能要呈現澄清一下因為不同地區本身在開發時間的那個溫度因為荔枝本身需要一些涼溫所以高雄它比較特殊一點所以它有比較慢而不是說公所或是我們同仁在慢我知道我知道那我們昨天去看了而且已經達到相關的一個災損的一個標準了所以我們會盡快的就在今天或明天就會去公告"},{"start":4337.58,"end":4352.646,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":4355.707,"end":4377.036,"text":"三）113年投保件數只有六件,高雄的荔枝種植面積有三千多公頃,不然這幾年你們可能沒什麼在推測作物保險,有沒有可能趁著這樣子讓更多的農民其實了解這氣候劇烈變遷的時候,其實投保作物保險的重要性?"},{"start":4377.836,"end":4392.329,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":4393.23,"end":4407.798,"text":"我今天也不要求你我覺得你們應該要開始啟動這樣的作物保險的宣導的工作不管你是我們現有的作物保險我覺得應該要開始要讓農民有更清楚的知道政府是在推動這一塊"},{"start":4409.858,"end":4435.138,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":4435.998,"end":4460.147,"text":"前一陣子這個寶林茶室的這個中毒案對於客家的米製品其實受傷慘重大家都知道要來美濃吃板條現在美濃的板條街是完全沒有人我是不是能夠要求農委會、農糧署能夠來對於台灣的米製品尤其是我們客家地區的這些板條等等的米製品"},{"start":4461.087,"end":4477.507,"text":"條文修正草案案 推廣計劃,尤其是國產的米品。甚至現在的所謂的米孝峻酸這個英文名字其實已經把它改名了,完全按照它的原文的發音。"},{"start":4478.268,"end":4494.387,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":4494.847,"end":4514.586,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":4520.071,"end":4536.449,"text":"好那接下來要討論到我們今天的這個法條齁部長您剛剛花了很多時間在解釋所謂的改良式列具山豬釣啦獸甲齁不過你剛剛有一點口誤你說你們現在在推改良式獸甲應該不叫改良式獸甲是改良式列具嘛齁"},{"start":4537.049,"end":4550.019,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":4566.292,"end":4586.893,"text":"推廣的、宣傳的力道、成效什麼樣?我跟委員說明,就是改良室的列具本身,就是如果知道的人他們其實蠻高興使用的。那我們到目前為止已經在原住民地區已經換發了大概3千4百,大概3千7百多了,因為今年度一直累積。"},{"start":4587.293,"end":4593.958,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文"},{"start":4607.645,"end":4630.074,"text":"其實在動保法裡面我們已經完全禁止獸甲甚至連它的製造販賣都是被禁止的所以照理講在山裡面他應該也是買不到所謂的原始的這種獸甲了嘛因為我們已經禁止他製造販售所以使用獸甲基本上已經是不合法的"},{"start":4630.874,"end":4644.758,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":4656.681,"end":4669.875,"text":"我覺得我們應該盡更多的一點心力。會的,我想我們一定會盡全力針對遠洋漁業部落本身的一個宣導。好,謝謝。好,謝謝邱委員。那下一位請張祺凱委員質詢。"},{"start":4703.634,"end":4712.358,"text":"來,請部長。委員長,保庭務,早安。"},{"start":4713.681,"end":4740.657,"text":"三月四號本席執行完之後看起來這個進口彈的這個銷毀有加速對不對我看最新資料已經銷毀了三千三千多萬顆現在還有兩萬欸兩千四百四十三到昨天為止齁大概已經銷毀了四千四百多剩下大概三億一千對好盡快齁這是我們會盡快越快人民納稅錢就是越多是我瞭解好不好瞭解不過我請教一下我看這個手機怪怪齁你給我的資料"},{"start":4742.278,"end":4756.709,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":4757.509,"end":4774.141,"text":"所以就是農業部這邊因為去年沒有完成,本來是說去年底對不對?所以已經都花了4330萬是不是這樣?不是這樣子,這個就是說我們把雞蛋就是當作堆肥,這個需要一些成本,這是3000多萬,另外從倉庫的地點運到堆肥廠,"},{"start":4779.885,"end":4802.323,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":4808.668,"end":4833.653,"text":"這每一批的進口放到倉庫然後倉庫去調度到洗煙場的所有的整年度的倉主費用不是報廢雞蛋的倉主費用這沒有辦法拆開的我看你昨天記者會講的是說這是今年的費用我們把它理清楚現在你剛剛講的是說是進來以後從去年開始去年開始進來以後的雞蛋因為他不同批進來嘛一億五千多萬個進來"},{"start":4834.833,"end":4849.173,"text":"都會放在倉庫的地點然後再調度到溪泉場那整年度下來的倉儲費用﹖所以是在九年之外到目前為止還是到九年底?到九年底﹖到九年底﹖到九年底﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖所以現在又繞到一半了?"},{"start":4850.554,"end":4866.91,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":4874.238,"end":4883.45,"text":"從去年的二月份一直到去年年底用了八千四百萬的倉儲費用,對不對?對,大概是八千四百萬。後來有流標,所以給你這個速度"},{"start":4884.656,"end":4899.584,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十"},{"start":4911.71,"end":4934.524,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及報廢的因為在同一個倉儲系統裡面沒有辦法去拆開來所以沒有辦法說今年度的倉儲費用就是浪費的因為他要保存一些過程的部分你本身你幾個月內就是要完成銷毀嘛對不對對那你劉彪你今年這個當然是多出來的啊對這個是多出來的我要肯定你最近有加速可是你現在不能夠去辯解說你因為你延誤了多發了這個費用好不好"},{"start":4937.145,"end":4939.287,"text":"三條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":4962.682,"end":4964.686,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一"},{"start":4975.06,"end":4988.031,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之"},{"start":4995.455,"end":4996.756,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5026.056,"end":5032.57,"text":"農業部補助了四千一百萬的倉儲費用,對不對?你另外說是中央市場會,所以沒勝利,中央市場會在看他的醫生。中央市場會我看這個預算書,一百十二年"},{"start":5037.208,"end":5061.535,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一及第八十九條之一"},{"start":5065.294,"end":5085.969,"text":"這五點六億的這個蛋的這個產蛋的教訓我們到底學到什麼本席去算了一下從進口進來的時候巴西蛋一顆平均大概八點八塊錢你看買蛋後來壞掉了過期了沒有用了人民損失納稅錢就四億三千五百四十八萬了另外加上我們剛剛一直在談的這個"},{"start":5088.524,"end":5112.304,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":5113.723,"end":5140.174,"text":"主委也下台了我現在不是要追你責任我說你至少做兩件事情第一個速度加快把這個錢省更多好不好這是一個然後第一個要好好想一想這個裡面到底得到怎麼一個教訓例如說你琴瑟跟那個基瑟的這個整個改良我去看你們這個補助標準最多大概一千萬嘛你當初如果不是用進口雞蛋多去改良一下多去改善我們這個琴瑟琴瑟的這個補助有好幾百家可以得到你的幫助欸"},{"start":5140.913,"end":5166.232,"text":"條文修正草案案 令我們的蛋的生產就更穩定,對不對?對,我們當初進口雞蛋跟琴瑟的改良是同步化,所以我們國內的雞蛋的復養率也非常快。抱歉,我最後問一個東西,我上次質詢的時候我特別強調,要讓所有民眾可以安心,所以這個過程,銷毀的過程要公開透明,對不對?有,絕對有第三方,包括縣市政府,還有相關的,我們自己的政風也有參加。"},{"start":5167.293,"end":5175.379,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":5197.074,"end":5197.934,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5220.606,"end":5235.631,"text":"條文修正草案案．一、二、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":5250.736,"end":5266.512,"text":"我跟委員說明就是行政院針對整個這次地震花蓮的話我們在跨部會第一時間就去處理那各部會本身針對各部會所看到的這些災損的部分那以我們農業部來講針對漁業的部分就是我們的定制網"},{"start":5267.293,"end":5293.965,"text":"那有一些農田部分的農田的部分還有畜牧的部分所以因為這是個災情慘重我希望我們農業部可以成立專案重寬的來給他們補助那尤其是像是水路或者是水土保持這個公共設施你們都會去做但是這個情社部分你們也應該重寬的給他們協助來重建我們一定會重寬我舉個例子像漁業設施本身的天然災救助"},{"start":5294.765,"end":5304.952,"text":"他大概只有30萬,我們現在已經有把他提高,然後也要報行政院做專案的方式處理。那針對於如果沒有去投保這個農業保險的,他可以申請嗎?"},{"start":5306.981,"end":5333.358,"text":"這個跟農業保險沒有關係這個只要是我們認定它是天然災害那第一陣就是天然災害好我們應該從寬來幫忙救災重建這條路很漫長所以要我們政府機關一起來協助來做包括在我們農業部底下有一個農金署我們對於災害的地區的這些災戶我們在這個有貸款的部分我們是可以有展延的這個申請補助計畫對不對有事項對"},{"start":5336.962,"end":5341.357,"text":"對,那尤其是這次的情況之下我們是不是可以做到一個展言免席的部分"},{"start":5342.95,"end":5346.352,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5371.69,"end":5372.31,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":5397.981,"end":5422.547,"text":"謝謝那接下來本席就要請問一下我們今天的動保法的法條的修正草案動保法今天在我們經濟委員會已經排審了請問我們今天給保法已經排審了那動保法什麼時候會進來在上一屆的會期第7會期的時候你們說會期結束前會送進來那這個會期還沒看到你們行政院送到立法院"},{"start":5423.626,"end":5425.927,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5437.482,"end":5440.566,"text":"有爭議什麼條文不能送進來的?你們從者你們討論研究演繹已經這麼久了"},{"start":5456.886,"end":5457.926,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":5479.691,"end":5495.163,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":5497.225,"end":5514.283,"text":"主委部長剛剛的說法是說我們會改良室改良室我們不曉得改良室是什麼樣的情況那因為我們在另外21條的部分裡面說如果有特殊緊急狀況危害公共安全或者民眾的生命的時候我們可以適用19條的第1項到第6項對不對"},{"start":5518.579,"end":5543.786,"text":"對是所以我們應該就把設限進去那尤其是第十九條的第一項到第六項我只看到你們回應的是這個126這這個三項是不可以使用的但是主委最讓我們擔心的就是三四五項他這個毒物還有炸藥還有其他特殊的這個獵捕的工具"},{"start":5545.27,"end":5555.903,"text":"主委、本部長我想請問就是說為什麼需要炸藥需要毒物這個你們沒有去回應你們還繼續要使用"},{"start":5557.168,"end":5575.518,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":5578.254,"end":5597.267,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":5606.778,"end":5629.992,"text":"這個部分可能我們就是會再跟這個漁業組這邊會議所以我希望你回應這個炸藥跟毒物的部分好不好對漁機漁法有一定的規範用炸魚這種方式本來就是不允許的所以你們現在回應我是漁業嘛那這個野生動物法這個還可以適用嗎我們署長所提到的就是我們保留炸藥跟"},{"start":5631.502,"end":5652.197,"text":"相關的是因為因應緊急的狀況的時候我們必須要去處理那如果說所以因應緊急狀況的話在19條裡面就有了對不對所以你們必須要去回應嘛是好不好我們在立法聰明裡面再做一個說明那謝謝主席給我最後一分鐘我要請問的就是說現在我們講的這個野生動物的這個37條跟50條裡面我們的"},{"start":5658.502,"end":5684.722,"text":"三條之一及第四十四條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":5688.385,"end":5717.624,"text":"要設立由中央主管機關,是第一線,可是我們中央有專業的技術人員啊,所以一貫是從中央到地方,對,我們一起成長,好,那再把編列進去好不好,好,謝謝。好,謝謝呂玉玲委員。接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言。謝謝主席楊瓊英發言,邀請部長。"},{"start":5718.582,"end":5719.15,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5725.734,"end":5752.58,"text":"條文修正草案案。今天討論的議案我們就先針對於漁業的部分那所以呢在2022年美國國家海洋暨大氣總署他發布了發布這個國際漁業管理改善的這個報告那台灣在上面有兩件事情上了榜單這個讓我們實在是第一個就是非法漁業"},{"start":5753.82,"end":5764.539,"text":"及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":5765.775,"end":5786.204,"text":"所以因此個人認為我們必須要加油所以在遠洋漁業的條例裡頭的一個修正是非常重要換句話說我們也必須要配合著整個國際間共同合作打擊非法而且在沒有報告而且不受規範漁撈作業的部分我們必須要強化"},{"start":5789.425,"end":5802.412,"text":"進口管理的這個措施落實遠洋漁業的管理對不對是是吼那所以本先生想聽聽看當您看到這兩項登上了榜首您心裡做過感想"},{"start":5803.556,"end":5829.793,"text":"我想其實打擊IOU是我想我們國家從108年107年開始就非常非常的努力然後之前的這些黃單我們也好不容易解除了但是在相關的維網的部分有時候會誤補到一些像類似海龜的混獲的部分那這個混獲的部分我們現在漁業署也在處理就是說在漁具上面去做一些改良讓這些像"},{"start":5830.453,"end":5850.158,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件的緩和減少這些裝置,那這些裝置其實在國外的這些通用的這些漁法裡面都有已經有有很好的成功的案例了,所以我們已經有在加強這部分的這些漁法的一個改良,你怎麼加強請你書面資料給本席,因為如果依照剛剛部長你所說的這個說法,"},{"start":5851.698,"end":5869.177,"text":"沒有回答本席請問你說這兩項不明日登上了榜單你的心裡作何感想不好受啊對不好受當然但是我們要怎麼樣積極作為那你如果說這個會去混和到海關沒有人不認識他的是"},{"start":5870.538,"end":5870.758,"text":"全世界各國已經有這麼多"},{"start":5885.575,"end":5904.587,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案的方案都非常好我們趕快拿出來好不好趕快拿出來來檢討接下來本席要跟你討論的就今天東寶團體也在群選樓的外面他們非常的關心大家也關心我相信部長你也非常的關心所以在這樣情況之下因為這個因為這個捕獸甲還有金屬的這個套索那我們所謂的山豬釣"},{"start":5912.432,"end":5936.409,"text":"條文修正草案案 本集也跟我們同仁也都提出修正動議在第十九條裡頭我們提出的是全面的禁止這個金屬的這個部分但是我們看到你的報告當中你似乎是不朝著全面禁止但是還好你剛剛的報告是說循性漸進是不是這樣子你所謂的循性漸進你說了幾項第一個你說你要把"},{"start":5944.673,"end":5967.444,"text":"改良式的方法改良式的列據改良式你說口小一點讓我們的黑熊不會套進去可是我真的很難過的是說我們竟然在我們的這麼重要的寶貝我們竟然最近有這幾年有五次被夾我看到這個數字我真的心痛啊那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":5970.024,"end":5990.194,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們這次這些獸甲我們禁掉但是在這個列具的部分其他列具像山豬釣這個部分因為現在目前在我們的農民的靠近山區的還有原住民他還是有有必要的一個狩獵的一個工具所以我們採用循序就是改良式的列具其他國家比如說"},{"start":5994.756,"end":6017.692,"text":"英國、澳洲、丹麥、匈牙利他們都已經禁止會致命的陷阱啊他們都已經禁止了啊對那是售假他們禁止的是售假的部分對啊對那我現在講的剛才委員所提到的像這支照片所看到的都是劣距就是像山豬掉之類的齁那我們已經有一些你看看那個狗狗腳被截斷了你看看貓貓被截斷了甚至連黑熊都受害對明白"},{"start":6024.724,"end":6053.853,"text":"所以我們剛才有特別提到在第十九條已經有授權我們可以去公告適當的時間可以公告那我們現在正在積極的推動這些改良式的列據以後那相對的能夠逐步的去取代那再一段時間等起來是沒有辦法接受你剛剛在報告當中說你循序漸進因為我們也聽不到你的循序漸進你的流程你的時間點到底是怎麼樣所以我也希望我也拜託你將你們預計要怎麼做的"},{"start":6054.053,"end":6054.893,"text":"條文修正草案案案項目。"},{"start":6074.901,"end":6083.909,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條"},{"start":6099.463,"end":6099.943,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":6119.654,"end":6132.46,"text":"2017年離婚熱死政策實施之後2018年有6000多隻的犬貓他絕育之後就回制到街頭去但是我們看到每一年逐年的增加2022年到2023年你是突破了2萬多隻所以我們整個的TNR我們的捕捉、絕育以及釋放我們到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":6144.805,"end":6145.226,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件。"},{"start":6172.428,"end":6187.984,"text":"我跟委員說明,TNVR這個制度本身他必須要根據不同的地區的環境去處理所以我們本身在相關的這些回制的部分我們現在是採用收容所的部分去處理"},{"start":6188.985,"end":6204.715,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":6205.495,"end":6210.378,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":6221.946,"end":6222.787,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6251.139,"end":6277.055,"text":"九七號我想請下陳部長來請陳部長委員長部長好我們今天其實特別針對那個遠洋漁業條例還有那個野保法的一個修法的部分提出一個部分那針對遠洋漁業條例當中的時候我們很重要的部分就是希望涉及非法還有未報告或不受規範魚撈作業的漁獲物或漁業產品不得進口"},{"start":6280.037,"end":6280.237,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":6304.249,"end":6327.328,"text":"三十三條的加工和貿易公司發現其中只有一家有合法的魚翅加工執照。就表示說只有一家它有一個很明確的魚翅的來源。其他12家情況是怎麼樣的?可不可以請部長回答一下?可不可以請署長來回答?可以。"},{"start":6329.644,"end":6355.754,"text":"謝謝委員的關心目前對保育類的鯊魚是禁止捕撈這個是部分另外一般的鯊魚其實還是允許捕撈但是禁止割其氣生理解那我現在想問的就是說如果說就是英國這個NGO組織如果他的調查報告是真實的狀態的時候13家裡面只有一家他有一個合法的一個來源那就台灣來講國際形象一定是不好的所以我們這次在修這個遠洋漁業條例的時候"},{"start":6357.955,"end":6383.456,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項。此外,我們也希望說後續能夠把這個可能產生的一些問題把它圍堵起來。對消費者來講的時候,比方說可能有很多人喜歡吃,可是他們也不想吃到非法的一個來源的部分。餐廳他們在做這個食材的過程當中,他們可能也不想要進口到非法的食材。那我們政府如果去確保你進來的食材是能夠是合法的,是符合我們自己修法的規則的。"},{"start":6384.497,"end":6385.318,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6415.077,"end":6435.985,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":6437.219,"end":6465.609,"text":"七十九人 七十九人跟我得到的數字差距很大齁那不管是我這邊得到的是二十九人或者是你講的七十九人我們最後再來釐清一下我這邊得到的數字是二十九人那一千零三十三艘遠洋漁船當中你要去做這樣的一個檢查顯然是不夠的那如果說我們接下來的時候我們修法之後我們希望能夠說漁獲都是合法的狀態我們認為限於檢查員可能要再增加好不好"},{"start":6467.339,"end":6467.659,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":6485.908,"end":6508.407,"text":"理解 那我們希望能夠真正去落實因為這樣落實過程當中不只是對於漁民來說來很重要對於所有的整個產業鏈當中包括餐廳包括消費者都是很重要的一個保障好不好那我想說我們今天還修了一個部分就是野保法的部分我想請教一下那個部長因為不管是動保法或野保法主管機關都在農業部 對不對"},{"start":6510.629,"end":6511.29,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":6539.892,"end":6561.163,"text":"你所說的就是當發生這樣的穿途的時候主管的到底是要用野保法還是要用動保法?這個要看好他本身的動物類別那一般的所以現在動物類別就是白鼻青是保育類啊別盪犬可能就是一般的那個白鼻青現在已經不是保育類的OK那如果是不到保育類的狀態的時候你要怎麼去做處理?"},{"start":6562.003,"end":6581.022,"text":"一般我想我們用野保法最主要是,如果說它是一個保育類的動物的話,我們通常會用野保法去處理。OK,冬肺肺肺就算野保法,保障的範圍對不對?冬肺肺肺,之前六不春的生物跑出來,對不對?那它是用野保法還是要用凍保法?應該是野保法。"},{"start":6582.472,"end":6604.426,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":6606.02,"end":6627.697,"text":"對,他出去的時候他本身的動物是用野保法去做相關的資質。所以我舉這幾個例子最主要就是說因為以現在的一個狀態的時候很多時候野保法跟凍保法它其實是混在一起那對民眾來講其實也是混淆的那主管單位一個是野保法是林業署在管對不對那凍保法是凍保室在管"},{"start":6628.658,"end":6649.887,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":6651.207,"end":6678.764,"text":"或者是一個動物的保護專線,動保專線,或者是也是一個保護專線。現在本來就有對不對?對,本來就有。OK,那我們對這部分是不是能夠去加強一個宣導?因為在2021年的時候新竹南寮發生了一個那個遊蕩犬追負人,結果後來負人跌倒,死掉,引起國賠的事件。部長知道這個事情嘛對不對?對。那麼我記得我們在2021年之後呢,其實就"},{"start":6679.838,"end":6694.823,"text":"條文修正草案．一、三十六條之一及第十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":6705.146,"end":6731.679,"text":"因為禁止餵養以後．．因為時間有限我想問一下就是在2021年這一次的會議之後我們有哪些改善我今天講因為在那一次當中我們跟地方政府的一個承辦人員問鑑調查當中大家都認為很重要的一個部分就是要增加行政資源請問三年過來了我們農業部這邊給了地方政府多少的一個行政資源的增加"},{"start":6732.56,"end":6733.32,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":6761.38,"end":6762.06,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6771.834,"end":6788.83,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":6794.895,"end":6813.623,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":6817.639,"end":6831.685,"text":"我想跟委員說明因為在18法裡面第19條就有規範就是我們今天除了這些售假以外我們針對其他的這些補列的這些列據的部分我們可以會可以得我們來公告"},{"start":6832.25,"end":6835.892,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一．三．本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":6858.72,"end":6877.048,"text":"列具,那這樣的一個列具我們在過往其實推動的包括宣導已經宣導的蠻普遍的,那我們希望說在一段時間之內如果把這個改良式的列具推到某個程度的時候,那我們就可以根據第十九條去做一個公告,禁止這個現有的原來的山豬料的一個製造。部長"},{"start":6878.288,"end":6880.729,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具三）本院委員"},{"start":6897.256,"end":6918.662,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":6920.643,"end":6930.633,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一項條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":6946.227,"end":6972.858,"text":"但是你們話沒有講清楚啊好我跟委員說明齁其實除了業績以外我們農業部的立場對山豬調也是反對的但是以剛才講的因為山豬調現在有他繼續用的一個需要改變名字嗎我們不要用山豬調啦對就不要用這個我們用改良式的業績他不再是山豬調了對我們現在的改良式業績我們未來只要是我們正式在三至六個月我覺得你這個時間要有要有魄力啦是到底是三個月六個月給你們宣導"},{"start":6975.259,"end":6982.507,"text":"然後如果宣導了我們希望大家用改聯式的列句不是刪除掉之後我們全面禁止刪除掉"},{"start":6984.261,"end":7007.454,"text":"我想比較務實的部分我們可以承諾就是說在一年之內因為我們把這些改良式的列據跟原住民特別是原住民地區的狩獵要更好的一個溝通所以我們承諾說一年之內我們改良式的列據推廣我們就把刪除掉現有的原來的刪除掉就把它禁止用變成一個改良式的列據用19條的部分19條你們直接公告禁止"},{"start":7012.657,"end":7013.237,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":7031.547,"end":7046.281,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,並不是直接影響到所謂獵捕了這個大型的野生保護的一些動物。所以我就要講清楚,否則每一次好像我們修了法都走那個一半的。"},{"start":7047.645,"end":7050.426,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具《遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7073.806,"end":7091.499,"text":"所以就是一年一年之後你們就會公告禁止所以這一年讓你們去做一些推廣改良式的列據把改良式列據把它宣傳宣導這樣子這個要很確定這是在這裡講的我們在左條審的時候也會把它納入所以我覺得這個部分還有"},{"start":7097.363,"end":7105.69,"text":"現在行政院版本有針對持有販售製造陳列輸出入進行納管那重點是你們要怎麼去從源頭管理啊"},{"start":7106.561,"end":7107.322,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":7140.802,"end":7163.607,"text":"謝謝陳廷飛委員接下來請鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員有請陳代理部長來請陳部長"},{"start":7170.931,"end":7195.941,"text":"部長好 委員好今天審查這個《野保法》還有《遠洋漁業條例》原住民族基本法第十九條是在94年2月5號就公布施行原住民得依法獵捕野生動物而且是以傳統文化距離自用為限"},{"start":7197.386,"end":7223.755,"text":"九十四年到現在一直沒有辦法落實。我們曾經也在第九屆提出《野保法》但是草譯協商沒有完成沒有辦法刪讀。106年2月24號草譯協商然後在第十屆就是上一屆我們再次的提出《野保法》的修正"},{"start":7226.849,"end":7246.524,"text":"同樣,雖然經濟委員會審完了,但是草也協商沒有完成。所以,因為《野保法》21條之一遲遲未通過,導致原住民主一直被起訴,然後打官司要打很久。我們看這個2017年、106年,"},{"start":7251.196,"end":7274.884,"text":"這個本席特別去聲援布農族的獵人王光祿我特別提了這個牌子國家違法因為也是原住民族基本法已經規定的很明確了但是野保法一直不修很多的你們的官員包括檢察官就起訴"},{"start":7276.903,"end":7296.053,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第四十條條文修正草案．立法院議員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一及第四十條條文修正草案．立法院議員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．立法院議員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．立法院議員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．立法院議員楊瓊瓔等21人擬"},{"start":7306.465,"end":7333.91,"text":"條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":7335.885,"end":7347.039,"text":"第五十一條之一、本席的修正條文跟行政院版最大的差距。」"},{"start":7352.553,"end":7368.782,"text":"我想跟委員說明我們新年版本裡面我們大概有分為保育類跟一般野生類的部分因為在整個動物保護來講一般野生動物跟保育類動物他是有不一樣的概念保護的概念所以我們有不同的這些處罰的一個條例這個條文我先談剛才一直農業部"},{"start":7381.479,"end":7384.9,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7406.938,"end":7425.721,"text":"所提出來的我們的尊重但是也要尊重原住民族在台灣這塊土地上千百年來造成這個野生動物各方面造成的減少絕對不是原住民"},{"start":7428.458,"end":7430.12,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7456.049,"end":7484.519,"text":"條條例部分條文修正草案案。以這條條文來講就是要希望能夠維持維持現行的條文然後做適度的一個修正其實這個部長還有署長去打獵的時候你能看得清楚這是保育類還是不是保育類嗎?晚上怎麼看得出來呢?對不對?"},{"start":7485.606,"end":7500.933,"text":"條文修正草案．第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":7503.467,"end":7504.568,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7524.895,"end":7528.918,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,其中一項負面負面負面負面負面負面"},{"start":7555.131,"end":7567.423,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":7578.24,"end":7598.744,"text":"沒有配合《原住民族基本法》去修正。據我們而言,就你們而言,因為已經12年了,所以已經宣導過了。但是據我們而言,這次三讀通過之後才開始,所以這事上會有很大的差別。好不好,希望不要堅持,希望能夠照我的條文。以上,謝謝。謝謝鄭天才委員。接下來我們請張嘉峻委員詢答。"},{"start":7614.304,"end":7616.946,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":7633.2,"end":7634.02,"text":"條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":7660.834,"end":7664.598,"text":"不曉得部長知道漁業證照裡面會註明的內容是什麼?這個漁業證照裡面會載明其漁船名然後船體的各項數據包括母港跟國際呼號等等,署長對不對?"},{"start":7684.096,"end":7710.675,"text":"那這些事項其實是並不會太平凡的變更假設變更也必須要主動申報然後來換照那也就是說漁民可能他經營了幾十年他的漁業證照內容是不會百變的團員手冊也是一樣就像一個身分證或者是護照一樣那送訊之後基本資料基本上都是固定的"},{"start":7711.676,"end":7733.686,"text":"其實沒有必要那麼頻繁的來更換所以這一次連部長不曉得部長怎麼看你覺得五年這樣子更換會不會太短?我個人覺得齁如果說他的他的異動不是那麼頻繁然後我們也確保又回到我們發正的原始精神如果說不違反這個原始精神的話做適度的放寬我是我是覺得應該可行的"},{"start":7735.1,"end":7735.881,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中﹚一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":7757.139,"end":7772.372,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":7781.98,"end":7804.748,"text":"所以我建議既然部長今天支持是不是可以儘速的來修改是不是5年把它延程10年比照互照一般讓這些漁民可以減少這些例行性的行政作業然後對基層的公務人員也有注意?部長是否同意?我們會來檢討那特別是我剛才講的就是說我們這個"},{"start":7805.828,"end":7819.964,"text":"條文修正草案案的安全性我們如果能夠克服包括說回到原始精神我們發正的原始精神那哪一些該注意的我們去做檢討那檢討的時候才會去思考說怎麼樣放寬跟放寬的一個年限是因為"},{"start":7821.271,"end":7834.754,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":7849.144,"end":7869.349,"text":"他如果沒有主觀申報是違法的。有一個重要的是傳播安全檢查,這個是不是可以容許署長講一下。好,來,署長。跟委員報告,特定漁業執照會五年為一個期限,最主要是搭配我們傳播安全檢查還是五年為一個期限。那我們要確定這個傳播安全的才能夠發給他特定漁業執照,這是大概第一個。"},{"start":7870.069,"end":7872.111,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項及其安全性等條文修正草案案件事項及其安全性等條文修正草案案件事項及其安全性"},{"start":7893.405,"end":7916.382,"text":"後來又變成六年,現在變成十年,所以這不是沒有檢討的空間嗎?所以一定不要再繼續饒民傷財了。我跟委員說明,我們會來檢討,但是漁船證跟船員證跟護照是不一樣的概念,因為船員證本身他出海以後他的技能他的安全務必要特別考量。這一點我拜託部長還有署長是不是儘速的來研議,能不能"},{"start":7921.225,"end":7932.311,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":7944.838,"end":7946.198,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7973.468,"end":7978.85,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":7998.317,"end":8010.488,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":8022.518,"end":8039.968,"text":"這一點我也非常讚許部長一定要趕快把我們主管機關農業部的立場說明白我們是支持我們的弱農我們是支持標示鮮乳跟保酒乳一定要分開讓他識別清楚讓消費者也清楚啊否則這是在誤導消費者雖然這件事情是這個衛福部要去調整的"},{"start":8046.451,"end":8049.993,"text":"但是主管機關農業部的立場你這樣子鮮明的表達出來這對弱農就是一個強心劑就是讓我們的弱農知道說至少我們的農業部主管機關是支持我們台灣弱農的我想我們針對弱農的一個輔導其實持續在做特別是在從今年開始我們像"},{"start":8066.64,"end":8078.688,"text":"跟行政院提供了一個弱農的一個產業的一個正新方案。那裏面就有很多的測試從生產面到產品面的……是 這個本席有瞭解我就是說可是這個提案真的有點慢欸就是弱農業、汰換這個老弱乳牛等等從去年研議到現在"},{"start":8084.071,"end":8101.344,"text":"都還沒有辦法實施到底是為什麼?我跟委員說明就是改名詞不是說我今天改了大家同意就改了因為它牽扯到很多國際貿易的接軌所以很多必須調和的是這個我完全同意但是我希望要求部長要求我們的農業主管機關一定要"},{"start":8105.447,"end":8126.632,"text":"來明確的要求衛福部增加產品的辨識度,讓消費者能夠更客觀的選擇。」對,我們會持續跟衛福部做溝通。好,謝謝。謝謝張家俊委員。接下來我們請謝伊鳳委員發言。我們在邱志偉委員發言結束之後休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8137.67,"end":8139.334,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8148.65,"end":8171.192,"text":"首先我跟陳部長你先澄清先來釐清一個事情就是說我根據明報的報導說就是他是說進口雞蛋跟整個就是銷毀的過程多花了納稅人八千多萬但是你們澄清這些都沒有多花納稅人的錢但是我們看到中央續產會裡面"},{"start":8173.234,"end":8195.257,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,不論是在他的收入裡面,都是40.33%都是政府委辦的計劃,有百分之將近52%是政府補助的計劃,所以這92.多%全部都是來自於政府,來自於人民的納稅錢,是不是?"},{"start":8197.279,"end":8219.984,"text":"我跟委員說明,續產會本身的相關的這些計劃的,它有的部分是做產業調節還有一些續設改建,或者是由中央委託續產會去做的所以從整個的收入來講,就是大概就是就像這邊所說的就是說都是政府補助跟政府"},{"start":8220.384,"end":8224.765,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項﹖一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":8247.152,"end":8261.124,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":8262.574,"end":8263.195,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":8279.788,"end":8298.945,"text":"條文修正草案．一、二、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":8299.505,"end":8316.018,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":8319.461,"end":8344.373,"text":"條文修正草案案件事宜,為何我們彰化找不到?現在就是說,人力團本身可能要有一個組。我們現在是透過農會,如果農會願意的話,我們會協助他成立一個人力團。甚至有一些外展的,就是外籍移工進來做農務的部分,總共有一萬兩千人。所以說,如果彰化地區那邊有比較需要的時候,我們也會來協助農會那邊去成立這樣的一個團來協助。"},{"start":8347.475,"end":8361.433,"text":"等到需要再成立的時候都已經來不及了。這種東西你一定要先成立。我知道我現在我們也會像我們輔導書積極的跟農會因為他本身的外展的部分都需要有住宿還有一些管理所以我們持續在跟農會看適當的農會有這樣的條件我們都會來協助"},{"start":8364.642,"end":8384.531,"text":"還有農民職災保險的部分我們看到了現在農民職災保險你們預計是要達到75%可是現在離75%有多少大概還有5萬農民職業災保險在新的辦法裡面先加入農保的就是強制的"},{"start":8386.04,"end":8410.96,"text":"條文修正草案．一．三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":8417.211,"end":8433.165,"text":"五十點九萬五十點九萬嘛。那75%就是多少?三十八萬嗎?三十六到三十八左右啦。那我就說啦,你現在還離那個有五萬,那你怎麼做?"},{"start":8434.046,"end":8450.068,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十條之一及第四十條之一及第四十條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":8450.589,"end":8452.31,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":8474.798,"end":8493.258,"text":"就是不要再以主要是農民職災保險的因果關係例如像什麼噴灑農藥或熱衰竭那例如像這樣子感染登革熱算不算不能重農算不算是農民那個農民職災保險我跟委員說明其實登革熱那個時候"},{"start":8494.699,"end":8516.533,"text":"我們也主動的為農民去爭取其實在登革熱本身他不是直接的職業傷害那我們也去積極的去爭取打納入我們的農業職業災害的保險的範圍那這是第一步那接下來委員所說的我非常認同就是說有很多那個起始點的部分跟他的樣態的部分我覺得我們可以有精進的地方"},{"start":8517.473,"end":8542.664,"text":"還有我們今天討論的是野保法那我想要請問在2023年如果就是說我們所要保育的這個台灣黑熊所受傷的十三例全部大概有十一例都是跟人為的狩獵是有關係的那你要怎麼樣子降低這樣子的狩獵行為以及"},{"start":8544.11,"end":8545.772,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":8554.27,"end":8557.392,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":8581.823,"end":8603.498,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":8605.319,"end":8620.387,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案案。」案。 ︎二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條"},{"start":8633.514,"end":8644.069,"text":"當我捕獲了以後當他復原了以後我就隨便的去做野放那這樣的可能會侵害了一些附近的這些居住權所以我們未來我想我們會在這個部分找到一個更適當的一個平衡點"},{"start":8645.158,"end":8645.659,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8666.414,"end":8689.267,"text":"我跟委員報告那個黑熊的族群是逐漸在擴張所以他進入到人跟人越來越接近這個是未來我們一定要面對我們現在做的就是在這兩者之間能夠達到橫評所以我們會推改良式列舉第一個第二個我們在黑熊野放的時候也都會徵詢當地社區或者是部落居民的意見他們同意我們才會這樣子做"},{"start":8689.727,"end":8690.308,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8707.061,"end":8734.344,"text":"對,預警還有可以捕捉他然後再把他回到他原本的棲息地這個過程你都要有整個配套不要發生的時候才導致於居民的恐慌疑慮那甚至對於我們保育的這個保育類動物也沒有辦法真正的對他進行保護啊,是不是?我們在努力朝這個方向"},{"start":8737.368,"end":8739.41,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8764.261,"end":8768.55,"text":"剛剛參政卿委員談到酪農,我們進來的那個牛奶的一個問題。那大概這個問題我處理過兩年。"},{"start":8773.826,"end":8794.921,"text":"在苗栗縣趙橋鄉只有小小的幾家,但是生產量過剩的時候都沒有辦法解決。現在從紐西蘭零關稅的進口,牛奶的品質又好,它又有科技化把它結成一個冰下來。所以剛剛講說你們對酪農要怎麼輔導,我不抱著期待。"},{"start":8798.544,"end":8816.376,"text":"我相信臺灣的肉農會慢慢的被消滅,會逐漸的凋零,逐漸的消失,因為我們的競爭價格實在比不夠好。所以我正在處理那個事情我就感覺啊,算了,他也把那個肉牛的母牛都賣了很多頭啊。"},{"start":8817.096,"end":8817.897,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":8836.77,"end":8863.893,"text":"就是我們現在的國產的牛乳大概有佔的將近八成九到九成的之間那本身我們怎麼樣讓我們的國產牛奶做市場的區隔然後增加它後端的一個拉力那是我們積極要努力的現在我只跟你講若龍養的肉牛一直在減少終究會被淘汰在五年之內不然我們來看看你們仍然在此準備看看你的結果我覺得不會"},{"start":8865.779,"end":8892.136,"text":"第二點因為冷鏈物流一直是農業部在推動苗栗縣好像那幾年都沒有申請到但是我記得保留到明年度我們的中東景縣長對冷鏈物流非常的重視麻煩是給我們加強我想冷鏈的部分我們其實正在建構整個臺灣島的冷鏈物流網它不會特別就是"},{"start":8893.097,"end":8894.878,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例提出我常常懷疑一個問題"},{"start":8919.031,"end":8942.63,"text":"十五是苗栗縣的縣府一個一個標誌的一個保護的動物那苗栗縣也推展成功但是我每次跟你為什麼討論這個問題我一講到十五我選舉的票就少了幾千票但是我是很務實的人我要把地方的情形其實的反應我只現在要求你一點"},{"start":8943.732,"end":8967.709,"text":"因為我選舉期間在海縣地區海縣苗栗縣有四個鄉鎮直蘭鎮沒有那支食物保護區後龍、通宵、燕尼你把它那支食物的保護區那我一直反映了好幾次那我為什麼一直要反映雖然我的票為了這樣減少但是我從來要轉向的海靠海的地方"},{"start":8968.797,"end":8994.193,"text":"第十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":8995.094,"end":9009.85,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":9010.991,"end":9013.592,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9038.524,"end":9041.725,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":9068.177,"end":9069.458,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9079.502,"end":9106.73,"text":"第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":9112.554,"end":9129.433,"text":"那個張市長我很謝謝你對苗栗縣的漁港這樣建設跟支持但是我今天看了一個資料說你們去年1月時跟人員時討論成立共存共榮基金在離岸風力"},{"start":9131.095,"end":9156.79,"text":"共存共榮基金是要以漁民的補償還是地方的回饋?各位委員報告這個是整體的方案一個是給漁民的協助第一個部分就是漁民受到的損失給他補償第二個就是漁民可能要做一些轉型或者是在地的一些資源的養分所以這個共存共榮的基金是在漁民之間使用的"},{"start":9157.891,"end":9183.13,"text":"我跟委員說明一下那個整個的一個像風電的部分他有補償但是他有一個共農基金他不是一個直接的補償他是利用這個共農的基金本身所的費用能夠做整個漁港的包括漁港的建設然後會來漁港的這些文化還有漁民本身的一個進出所以他是一個綜合的一個他是由相關的漁會漁會的部分去做相關的"},{"start":9185.411,"end":9187.053,"text":"條文修正草案案案案件。"},{"start":9211.246,"end":9211.967,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9230.486,"end":9231.587,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":9245.407,"end":9265.342,"text":"你說在一百一十三年以後,阿我讀的我阿哥到海,前臺灣省第一座離岸風力車在我苗栗縣,阿他們以前做了都沒有回饋,後面的有回饋,你看我要怎麼來討論這件事情,阿想做人就想討論,你知道我講的意思嗎?"},{"start":9267.39,"end":9292.208,"text":"我們在竹南地方有一個四萬的那個離岸風力的在那一邊現在你這條設下來後面的人就有共存共農資金那以前設立我先做我先做我沒有一點收穫沒有離岸風電他補償補償費有補償費那共農基金有共農基金那我們在1月23號所以你現在補償費跟共農基金都要跟我講嗎沒有這兩個是分開的喔這兩個是不一樣的喔"},{"start":9296.752,"end":9310.826,"text":"市長,你下來下鄉好好解釋這一條。你現在有補償會,還有共榮、共存基金都拿走,一些地方政府都拿不到了。我想我們會再積極的去做一個宣導。"},{"start":9311.887,"end":9333.238,"text":"這個共農基金不是只有農會可以使用,它是一個管理委員會的方式去執行的,我想我們會加強這方面的一個現場。我先講好了,不然會增加我們困擾,尤其現在我們苗栗縣的風力最強,高高風,我每天給人家擦到頭暈眼花了,下來幫我說明清楚,更了解一下。還有我跟你講,跟能源使一起要討論。"},{"start":9334.458,"end":9335.558,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9363.746,"end":9392.282,"text":"部長今天要處理這個遠洋漁業條例我想台灣作為漁業的大國也是我想我們一定是跟國際相關規範來走那我們大概來做一些相關處理但是我還是要再提醒農業部其實從全球的漁業的狀況來看這未來的十年其實還是會呈現上升的一個趨勢包括人類對於魚類的它是一個很好的蛋白質來源我想這都會持續的來增加"},{"start":9392.602,"end":9415.184,"text":"特别是在高收入的国家,它的量会持续的增加,所以作为本来就是远洋漁业的大国的时候,其实这是我们的一些优势,那我也希望农业部跟漁业署能够持续的强化,强化我们在漁业上面的这些优势,不要让我们很具有竞争力很有优势的一个产业,然后在国际竞争上面去一个弱势。"},{"start":9416.766,"end":9434.001,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":9434.121,"end":9435.981,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":9462.486,"end":9485.325,"text":"那我們的遠洋業其實真的是相當具有競爭力在2022年的時候遠洋漁有48萬噸年產值大概355億這還不包括了包括上下游的相關產業包括整個加工業包括冷凍倉儲包括修造船或者是漁網漁具這個都非常的強這個都是在全世界那如果整體來看"},{"start":9486.306,"end":9511.087,"text":"條文修正草案案件事件。但是從去年前政院館發生的事情就知道其實很多國人其實並不了解甚至很多的當時的議員要選立委的都還不太清楚所以我意思說這個還是希望部跟署裡面要加強去做宣導我們有這麼強的一個遠洋的實力那如果連連要參選立委的都搞不清楚還在講什麼抓歌集啦還在虧這種的話顯然是完全不了解"},{"start":9512.008,"end":9540.087,"text":"一般的國人可能更不一定那麼清楚甚至被似是而非的言論去講我還是希望未來加強去做宣導我們的漁業是一個很強的有一個高產值甚至於在很多的產業方面是養家活口造成很多人的一個生計的我覺得這個要不斷的讓國人更清楚的知道我想我們會持續加強遠洋漁業本身的正面的這些貢獻雖然說有少部分那種偶發的而且是這種"},{"start":9542.468,"end":9544.049,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":9566.297,"end":9568.66,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文"},{"start":9583.138,"end":9611.283,"text":"三百零三艘的漁船被開罰也就是說大概我們總數一千一百艘大概有將近三分之一超過四分之一啦是踩到了這一條線被踩罰了那顯然在很多的宣導跟溝通跟輔導上我們還有更多加強的空間是不是也請部長跟署長一個月內的時間我們再整體盤點一下好不好對一些輔導的機制整個什麼樣的機制讓我們的這些漁民們不要那麼輕易的踩掉這一條紅線好不好"},{"start":9612.463,"end":9614.244,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其其他條文修正草案案件及其其其其其其其其"},{"start":9633.198,"end":9633.978,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":9655.128,"end":9673.354,"text":"條文修正草案案案件的成敗的關鍵來自於將來是不是找到一個好的產業能夠進駐進入進來成指標性的產業進入進來的話對整個前陣營港這個會有相當大的一個進展那我知道後來因為也這個農業部有採用OT的一個方式來進行我問一下部長現在進度到哪邊"},{"start":9674.66,"end":9702.356,"text":"這個初步我可以請那個業主先回答一下目前我們已經完成初步的整個可行性評估然後因為這個OT的部分促參的部分我們必須經過農業部的審查那我們已經送到農業部農業部也排很快的時間之內就會進行相關的審查部長一定什麼時候可以來審查完畢來進行整體的部分就是已經可以去處理的我希望說能夠都能夠到四月底到五月底之前都會把它完成第一階段的審查"},{"start":9702.936,"end":9713.509,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十四條條文修正草案案件及第十七條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":9719.036,"end":9741.856,"text":"但是我們之前我們會有階段性的一個審查的對話我希望部長這邊跟署長這邊加快這個速度好不好 這個越早招商完成越早把好的廠商找進來會加速整個地方上面的一個推動那再來是我看到年限上面後來也做了一些調整30年的時間從最早期的時間拉長那30年當然將來業者他投入的時候他比較能夠去估算他的"},{"start":9742.336,"end":9750.553,"text":"整個未來投資有20加10這樣的方式。但是我看到五十漁港有到五十年"},{"start":9753.826,"end":9781.136,"text":"我還是請農業部省內思考啦但我還是希望你們去邀商的時候多聽聽看業界的一些聲音重點是招到強的廠商進來好的廠商進來的話就很輕鬆愉快的經營啦但是如果你找到的是不是一個強的廠商的話恐怕後面就會讓大家很擔憂那個廠商他需要多長連線恐怕大家有很多人他們會有很多的一些整體的思考他要投入很多的規模的話他要相當的那因為我們現在在努力把捷運黃線能夠拉進來"},{"start":9782.697,"end":9785.018,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9816.941,"end":9824.664,"text":"改良式的劣距也有包括金屬的材質嗎?因為今天很多版本都是希望全面禁用金屬材質"},{"start":9835.461,"end":9837.222,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9867.549,"end":9884.312,"text":"所以大部分是金屬嗎?對,所以金屬材質其實不是問題,是它的現境,現行的那個市售的現境過期。所以你推廣了兩年,為什麼還提那麼多的修法,都是全面禁止金屬?這是全面禁止是售假,售假全面禁止。"},{"start":9885.269,"end":9908.401,"text":"現在的那個高分子的技術,它也可以做成是塑膠線,那個殺傷力會更強,它不是金屬。你說山豬釣那個部分嗎?對,我想跟委員說明,今天最主要就是售甲的部分我是完全禁止,但是針對山豬釣的部分,我們在這次的修法並沒有去提,但是在19條裡面,它有一個我們還可以依照主管機關公告的這個列據,"},{"start":9909.702,"end":9936.179,"text":"那現在刪除掉還有它必須要存在的一些原因所以我們現在積極的在推動改良式的這些列據你應該跟所有提案委員做充分的說明啊對剛才有說就是我們會推這個所謂的然後在一年之內盡可能的因為這樣解釋得很清楚我了解接著這個遠洋遠洋漁業的問題目前我國從事遠洋漁業的這個傳言人數大概有多少我國籍的大概有多少人數我國籍的"},{"start":9937.219,"end":9954.573,"text":"五國籍的大概在兩千人左右。」遠洋漁業有高風險,包括機械故障,包括船員傷亡或傷病,甚至船員失蹤。你們在2017年就成立這個漁業監控中心,針對各項的狀況你們都有掌握,都有通報,五年770件。"},{"start":9963.86,"end":9985.95,"text":"一年大概154件,當然主要是集中在機械故障、傷病、冤死亡。所以你們有沒有什麼方法可以讓機械故障的這個案件數能夠下降,能夠確保漁船在作業或者在遠洋的過程中能夠符合四航標準,有沒有更積極的作為?"},{"start":9987.749,"end":9993.213,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其安全等條文修正草案案件及其安全等條文修正草案案件及其安全等條"},{"start":10014.429,"end":10039.759,"text":"這部分已經經過協調了那大概相關部會也都支持我們會針對船上常用的這個部分讓他可以攜帶足夠的藥物所以你要去宣導有共識之外就去宣導讓這些遠洋漁業的這個從業的這個船員能夠了解他們的這個權益另外失蹤案平均有9點事件那這個算是高喔漁業署有沒有加強監禁的作為"},{"start":10040.819,"end":10068.248,"text":"對因為失蹤案就主要發生的原因就是意外落海那現在我們有推救生衣的部分就是遠洋漁船大概總共會補助兩萬件等於是船上幾乎每個人在甲板上工作規定就是要穿救生衣那落海之後就是比較容易收救另外給他定位指示器這個會補助一萬具那這個就比較容易收救這降低這個失蹤數這個大概是確保他們的安全另外韓國有個經驗就是說"},{"start":10069.688,"end":10087.664,"text":"二（二二二KBRAND韓流行銷作業結合他們觀光、結合他們相關的部門,特別是把農產品、農漁產品透過平台、透過跨部會的合作一起來行銷韓國主要的商品。"},{"start":10092.067,"end":10107.639,"text":"當然農業部也有加長農產品國際行銷方案,但是我是覺得只局限於農產品,也應該更大的思維、更大的視野,結合其他不像說體育、文化或者藝術"},{"start":10109.161,"end":10134.815,"text":"把這個整體做一個臺灣整體的行銷啊,這個部分可以參考韓國K不認經驗。」這個部長。我還很謝謝委員的建議齁,就是過往其實像在東京之別兩大的展覽我們都是以農產品為主,但是我們在建築或是其他的部分的活動的時候是有跟其他的文化產業連接在一起。那剛才委員提到就是說應該更鏈接其他的部會齁一起去行銷,那這個部分我想我們會積極來努力。"},{"start":10136.305,"end":10159.377,"text":"對,包括體育啦、文化啦、藝術啦。對,我跟委員說明,我們現在正在推,就是體育,就是奧運有沒有,我們現在飛機上面去弄一個農產品,臺灣雲南農產品的這些東西,推到飛機上去,這個就是一個例子。這個最好是有個T-brand,那T-brand一定要包含這個石斑跟這個虱目魚。"},{"start":10161.325,"end":10183.679,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":10186.092,"end":10203.591,"text":"能否仿照歐盟跟美國的做法?美國有SIMP,對不對?那歐盟有漁獲證書計畫,這都很嚴格啊。確保這個所有漁獲並非來自IUU。那我們的查驗能力,修法之後我們的查驗能力夠不夠?"},{"start":10205.189,"end":10220.84,"text":"第一部分就是說我們會去公告就是不能進口的這已經符合IUU的規範不能進口的然後進來的時候我們在邊境會做把關那邊境如果是像魚類是凍品的時候他會經過衛福部的非追不可的系統第一階段他會登錄"},{"start":10221.761,"end":10227.164,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其成本等條文修正草案案件及其成本等條文修正草案案件及其成本等條文修正草案案件及其成本等條文"},{"start":10250.097,"end":10269.01,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一"},{"start":10269.49,"end":10288.158,"text":"國際上打擊IU是不遺餘力所以我們包括對出口對進口的部分都有相關法規來做規範所以這個部分我們是把進口這個部分把它補足那就是說我們是跟國際同步的而且避免以後發生這樣的事但是我們裁法不是我們的目的而是不要發生這件事所以我們有相關的措施來努力另外這個如果強迫勞動的狀況"},{"start":10292.756,"end":10303.76,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":10305.734,"end":10323.986,"text":"這個所謂的血汗海鮮會不會未來也會變為IUU的一個樣態之一?各位委員報告目前美國已經把強迫勞動列為是IUU的樣態之一那我覺得把台灣認為是強迫勞動的這個對我們的漁業是不公平的"},{"start":10324.266,"end":10341.198,"text":"不能因為少數個案而且未經證實的就把臺灣的漁業認為是血岸海鮮。有沒有跟相關單位來反映?有。那目前我們漁業與人權這個行動計畫其實針對很多方面都已經在做努力。那國外包括NGO、初步也都認同臺灣的努力。那這個後續我們還是要...什麼時候可以提出這個名單呢?"},{"start":10342.353,"end":10366.614,"text":"每年公布嗎?每兩年公布一次。對啊,你從2020第一次被列入名單,2022也有一次,對不對?是。現在就2024了喔?對。那2024會不會還是被列入名單?這個我們在努力,也跟在做相關的國際溝通。不能因為個案而影響到台灣整體的形象喔?是。好,一起努力喔。好,謝謝。好,謝謝邱智維委員。好,我們現在休息。"},{"start":10673.49,"end":10676.072,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10702.141,"end":10727.741,"text":"謝謝主席,來有請部長。來請部長。部長好。2022年我們開始從日本專案進口雞蛋,然後有相關的報告在2022年的時候其實有揭露。我在2月20號的時候開始發文跟我們的農業部"},{"start":10729.458,"end":10747.844,"text":"以及中央續產會調2022年我們日本進口雞蛋的補助金額、採購的數量跟金額還有跟哪些廠商採購。到今天為止我2月20號發文,到今天為止我沒有得到我需要的資訊。在農業部"},{"start":10753.072,"end":10766.586,"text":"回給我的公文當中三月二十一號說沒有簽訂採購合約三月二十五號說部分系以合約執行所以到底哪一個是對的?"},{"start":10767.885,"end":10797.188,"text":"我想我第一個先跟委員致歉就是說因為整個的一個雞蛋的一個執行是由中央序長會執行的那我們在第一時間我們先...中央序長會的董事長現在是哪位?是我們現在董事長是由我們的杜文貞次長當代理董事長所以你們兩位溝通應該沒那麼困難吧?沒有這個就是我們第一時間去問中央序長會的時候他回給我們說是...所以是你們的次長搞錯是不是?"},{"start":10797.728,"end":10813.859,"text":"所以我想是應該是在承辦因為在整個雞蛋的調度的過程中那本身我們也做了一些內部的一些行政的一些查核的過程中那因為承辦人所以說後面的還是對的有部分的好來我們繼續看2022年日本章案進口雞蛋到底進了幾櫃"},{"start":10823.493,"end":10826.476,"text":"你們回給我的是211貴我看去年市場會的決算數是192貴哪一個數字才是對的?"},{"start":10833.288,"end":10852.933,"text":"我們那個要分兩個部分因為在111年的時候當時還沒有開專案進口是美國、日本跟澳洲的部分回給你的部分可能是針對日本的部分所以你看嘛續產會的決算書日本後面寫幾個日本後面寫幾個那你回給我寫幾個"},{"start":10859.929,"end":10887.163,"text":"二一一一百一十一年的部分所以我問你哪一個是對的嗎?應該是二百一...二一一是包括美國跟澳洲二一一是包括美國跟澳洲的部分那一九二的部分是日本的部分來來來來來看一下一百一十一年中央續產會與自由基金委託貿易商代理製日本專案進口雞蛋計兩百一十一貴寫的是日本"},{"start":10890.933,"end":10892.053,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10922.967,"end":10948.039,"text":"中央訊財會以自有基金委託貿易商自日本專案進口雞蛋計211棍。」所以你今天告訴我 這個描述是錯誤的 是嗎?根據我們現在最新得到的訊息 這個是錯的這是兩年前的事情了我跟你們所知整整超過了一個多月到我現在連這麼粗略的資訊都可以搞錯"},{"start":10951.072,"end":10961.041,"text":"中訓場會是螺絲掉光了嗎?如果211是對的那你們去年那個決算書內容不就虛偽不實?我有說錯嗎?"},{"start":10968.117,"end":10969.578,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":10989.189,"end":10993.173,"text":"條文修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責"},{"start":11009.375,"end":11036.006,"text":"結果你們回復我說這是商業機密請問這是什麼商業機密我們用納稅人的錢去買雞蛋我說跟哪一些貿易商計不能夠講在遮掩什麼不過我想我們絕對不是遮掩因為相關的這些進口專案合約因為並不是農業部訂的是由續產會跟貿易商訂的那以他們的合約的部分他們列有相關的保密條款來他保密條款是怎麼寫的"},{"start":11038.39,"end":11054.703,"text":"二〇二三年我們可以公告進口雞蛋的廠商這是二〇二三年了嘛全部都公告了嘛哪一家廠商進了多少蛋多少錢這個是國民有權利知道的這絕對是國會應該監督的"},{"start":11057.105,"end":11084.823,"text":"你們2023年可以公告結果2022年現在是涉及到什麼跟哪一個廠商買是涉及到國家機密我跟委員說明在2023年的時候一開始的時候我們也沒有同意那我們是一直跟廠商溝通得到雙方合約雙方同意以後我們才公告的所以我問你保密條款你說你2023年也沒有同意來看一下看一下2023年你們的進口雞蛋合約漲降對不對"},{"start":11086.992,"end":11087.492,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11104.859,"end":11128.192,"text":"我所瞭解我所掌握的訊息當初本身的合約不管他有沒有列保在2023年齁不管他有沒有列保密條款一定要經沒有就要經過雙方同意才能夠公開對嘛你如果有這個合約的官方我就問你寫在哪裡嗎就算因為我問過法制齁就算合約裡面沒有寫的時候然後那個契約本身是秘密"},{"start":11128.672,"end":11153.866,"text":"不是他要雙方同意以後才能夠公開我現在在問你齁說當契約裡面有保密條款我是唸法律的人啊我契約裡面的保密條款就找了半天到底寫什麼嘛來你把你現在手上的保密條款唸給大家聽怎麼寫的以方因本件買賣而窒息甲方營業上或標示上物的資訊、情報、計畫、機密等其他相關"},{"start":11158.422,"end":11159.123,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":11178.007,"end":11193.826,"text":"明明是以防復的保密業務!你在站在國會裡面胡扯喔!我沒有胡扯我跟委員報告齁就是我所知道因為我不是學法律但是從法務我們的法務人員給我的訊息就是合約不管有沒有寫保密的一個條款"},{"start":11195.728,"end":11197.19,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":11210.828,"end":11230.734,"text":"主席站起來了我尊重主席你要回答也可以請報告委員我們行政機關要提供資料出去原則上要適用政府資訊公開法所以政府資訊公開法的第18條的規定有寫說政府資訊屬於下列情形之一者應限制公開或不予提供之"},{"start":11231.414,"end":11254.606,"text":"那委員您看一下這個18條的部分裡面來講有關於第18條的第7款的部分就是有關於法人或團體營業上的秘密或經營事業有關的資訊他的公開或提供有有侵害法人的權利或競爭地位或我現在的問題就來了政府執行公開法絕對不是按照你這樣解釋的"},{"start":11256.286,"end":11282.86,"text":"公開這個合約是侵害到那個法人什麼營業秘密啊你站在國會上面鬼扯喔黃委員黃委員請息怒因為我們今天討論的是東寶法野保法所以可能相關的資訊準備的不是那麼充足是不是能夠讓他們再來跟黃委員報告好不好那因為我們後面還有很多委員要可以啊主席才是了我等了一個多月終於有機會諮詢你們"},{"start":11284.52,"end":11295.59,"text":"到現在還在胡扯用政府資訊公開法前面說有保密條款被我抓出來以後根本沒有現在改扯政府資訊公開法。接下來我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請高金素梅委員"},{"start":11319.06,"end":11320.002,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11326.049,"end":11340.654,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":11351.338,"end":11375.237,"text":"我竟表支持也謝謝署長謝謝但是呢今天我有幾個修法的問題我要跟部長來討論一下第一個就是原住民首次違反規範的免罰制度也就是野保法第51條之一過去針對原住民如果誤觸本法的規的話我們會有首次違反不罰的機會為什麼這次要刪除掉請問一下部長"},{"start":11376.435,"end":11377.276,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":11391.685,"end":11407.932,"text":"三條之一及第四十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第"},{"start":11409.372,"end":11410.533,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11436.044,"end":11437.746,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":11454.523,"end":11482.879,"text":"條文修正草案案的修假。如果說我們有緩衝期的時候,那大部分都會等到緩衝期過了以後,或者是首次不罰等第二次以後再來處理。所以我們用整體的考量是希望說,同時居民禁止。就是說在110年的時候呢,跟園民會的會議裡面,園民會其實也希望就是這個你們不要把首次這個免罰的制度拿掉。"},{"start":11483.519,"end":11484.22,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":11506.162,"end":11529.503,"text":"所以您剛剛講到的就是用鐵匣的這個部分可是您知不知道陽明山國家公園官網的說法跟農業部的見解不一樣請問一下哪一個是錯誤的解讀陽明山國家公園所謂的鐵匣的部分跟我們的這個農委會是不一樣的說法我想我們的整個獸匣的部分我們是有定義的很清楚的定義在動保法裡面有清楚的定義"},{"start":11530.253,"end":11549.025,"text":"你看到陽明山國家公園了嗎?他說只要是此狀的陷阱即為售假,然後農業不適,你們是要具有強力彈簧。到底這兩個到底是誰?我們在後面的實行細節我們會把它做一個更詳細的區分。所以你說在說明細節裡面會實行細則,裡面會講清楚,會講清楚,就不會有現在我給你看的這個陽明山國家公園跟農業不一樣。"},{"start":11556.17,"end":11573.202,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":11585.811,"end":11604.004,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":11612.95,"end":11618.613,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":11629.438,"end":11647.952,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":11648.012,"end":11650.113,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":11664.997,"end":11690.721,"text":"其實事實上我們的獵人都喜歡是永續的但是現在物種的滅絕不要把它全部怪罪到原住民的獵人而是我們原住民獵人夯噗隆咚加起來可能才不到10萬人也可能也沒有那麼多整個台灣的物種的滅絕把它歸類或者是無限上綱到原住民的獵人"},{"start":11691.201,"end":11708.616,"text":"我覺得這是非常不公平的一種說法。」我同意委員說這絕對是不公平因為保育類的動物的一個滅絕它有非常非常多的原因謝謝部長我們要做的是如何把原住民傳統山林狩獵的智慧留下來"},{"start":11709.577,"end":11730.958,"text":"然後讓我們的獵人做第一線保育的工作者而不是用所謂的這些法西斯的保育動物的思考模式來強加造原住民族的身上這是非常不公平的本席身為一個原住民的立法委員必須要跟這些朋友希望他們能夠理解"},{"start":11733.3,"end":11757.486,"text":"不要都把所有的罪過放在原住民族獵人的身上,包括如果今天有崩塌,就是說原住民在山林濫砍濫伐,這樣子的錯誤觀念我們是沒有辦法承受的。」我也是認同那個委員的一個看法,絕對不能把所有的責任都怪罪在原住民。我們應該是要共享,然後共同來保護這塊山林。"},{"start":11759.446,"end":11763.908,"text":"條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11788.978,"end":11789.3,"text":"有請部長。來請陳部長。"},{"start":11798.004,"end":11799.085,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11822.509,"end":11832.229,"text":"是嗎是好那另外呢其實在野保法的21跟21之一條其實我們開了一個例外對吧"},{"start":11834.386,"end":11852.066,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":11852.756,"end":11871.186,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":11881.892,"end":11888.383,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案 案件,以及其他條文修正草案"},{"start":11890.32,"end":11914.612,"text":"我跟委員說明就是在這次修法裡面授甲本身我們是全面禁止那後續的這些平台上的稽查我們會更強烈去處理那委員這邊所提到的山豬釣的部分因為山豬釣目前在靠近山區的這些農業地區還有原住民在狩獵的時候他可能還是必須使用那同一個時間點這個是他們傳統式的山豬釣但是相對的就是山豬釣對於動物的殺傷力蠻高的"},{"start":11916.693,"end":11931.849,"text":"所以我們一直積極的推動改良式的這些列據那這樣的一個列據本身如果說能夠更大的推廣的時候那相對的就能夠取掉刪除掉那剛才我們也承諾就是說我們在改良式的這個列據裡面去積極的推廣"},{"start":11933.931,"end":11954.485,"text":"條之一及第十九條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":11959.3,"end":11966.669,"text":"對,兩年多前,那我們中間有再改良,現在是到2.0版,因為這個必須要給農民試用有效,大家才會明白。"},{"start":11969.076,"end":11994.409,"text":"我們大概將近3700多具那最主要是山豬尿同樣是鋼索但是鋼索的陷阱跟他的那個口徑的大小會影響到他的動物的這個被捕獲以後的那個受傷程度所以我們針對改良式的列具裡面就針對他的陷阱變粗應該這麼講目前有效的汰換率如何"},{"start":11995.009,"end":12023.405,"text":"就是已經有試用過這麼多了嘛因為我們已經推兩年了嘛但是問題是目前我們的汰換率如何如果還是很消極的做法其實傳統的山豬釣它依舊存在我跟委員說明就是用過的人都會覺得它好但是相對的就是說我們的宣導要更積極因為有些原民部落我們要更深入原民部落裡面讓那些部落的長者能夠做有效的那比較年輕的大概一看到這個特別是在山區的靠近山區的農民"},{"start":12023.905,"end":12044.862,"text":"他們願意試嗎?而且是免費的嘛。我們是免費的汰換喔。比較年輕的。所以說年輕的族群,特別是農民,三巡農民,他們汰換率就比較高。但是在原住民,特別在深山的一些部落的長者,他們可能訊息不是那麼了解。所以我們這部分我們要更積極的去處理。"},{"start":12045.823,"end":12069.704,"text":"其實我今天就是兩個重點第一我們在市面當中依舊還是看到有所謂的山豬山豬的陷阱他們這些陷阱的販賣依舊還在存在那我們是不是一樣可以依照所謂的動保法十四第二條十四之二條其實未經主管機關許可其實任何人是不得製造販售以及陳列甚至輸出這些所謂的金屬的套具這個是第一個我們一定要積極"},{"start":12070.805,"end":12077.292,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":12085.762,"end":12111.662,"text":"一打出來我隨便搜尋其實還是一大堆那第二點其實真的就是我剛剛所說的既然我們的改良是你們也認為比較人道也比較好動物比較不容易受傷那這個部分我們就積極的去推廣積極的去汰換那我們不是說不能讓21或者是21之一條開例外但是就這個部分我們繼續努力好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":12114.168,"end":12116.029,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":12142.469,"end":12156.919,"text":"好沒關係我們先開始好了那就是說在針對我們這次的野保法修法其實是已經是非常非常久102年之後的第一次嘛那我也知道說林業署這幾年其實一直都在今年應該是有做一些研習也會有些相關的座談會來做一個通盤的檢討"},{"start":12158.92,"end":12177.513,"text":"但是我認為我們現在不能只有處理野保法我們同時是要一併的來考量我們的所謂的動保法那主要來看這個定義上面我們的野生動物保育法第三條對於野生動物的定義是指說一般狀況之下應生存於棲息環境下的哺乳類等等等等"},{"start":12178.887,"end":12180.227,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、其他人為飼養或管理的脊椎動物。」"},{"start":12197.592,"end":12198.932,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":12222.971,"end":12246.644,"text":"對,所以我就在定義上面其實有是有要再做修正的地方因為我們來回到上一頁上一頁你看他是指犬貓及其他人為飼養的脊椎動物所以剛剛那個犬貓並不是人為飼養的所以這個地方是不是要去做一些調整所以我的想法是這樣子就是說我們動保法裡面並沒有包含無脊椎動物可是我們現在有很多人是養一些無脊椎動物當寵物那難道就要用野保法來管嗎"},{"start":12247.504,"end":12248.466,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12263.146,"end":12263.506,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":12289.667,"end":12289.907,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":12305.748,"end":12307.048,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":12326.215,"end":12352.375,"text":"他們都會去要求在申請書上面要填寫這個動物識別的方式那也就會造成說當他這個動物溢失的時候他們可以去辨別他那可是我們現在是我們現在的並沒有做這樣子的一個識別的機制不管是對動物我們一般的飼養或是針對保育類的部分有保育類的方式你看上面是沒有任何的識別的方式欸"},{"start":12353.973,"end":12355.156,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":12363.366,"end":12390.909,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":12391.53,"end":12403.156,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．第十四條之一、第三十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":12412.625,"end":12413.525,"text":"條例部分條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":12440.134,"end":12445.078,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文修正草案案件及其他條文"},{"start":12467.217,"end":12471.439,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其其他條文修正草案案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":12494.485,"end":12504.01,"text":"主席先宣告一下我們中午不休息 延長開會時間謝謝主席 那我們是有請我們部長來請陳部長委員好"},{"start":12512.507,"end":12533.455,"text":"部長雖然今天講漁業跟動保那我有一個比較我感覺比較急的事情想要跟部長講一下就是說我們今年第一期的水稻在嘉義跟台南本來照這個輪灌的一個制度去年是嘉義停灌"},{"start":12535.415,"end":12558.97,"text":"臺南亭灌輪灌、臺南亭灌、嘉義耕作,因為我們趕翻是烏山河水系的。今年就因為去年有比較長的九年欠水,所以後來把臺南的部分讓它恢復公灌,也就是它可以繼續種植水稻。現在產生一個問題來了,過去,因為我們這台是後面比較固定的,過去水利會,"},{"start":12563.633,"end":12581.211,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案件中,他會做分區供水。分區供水最主要目的當然就是為了讓水稻是可以在賣工時間作為修行。那後來因為我們臨時改變了這個政策方向,定義有打破原則啦。"},{"start":12582.373,"end":12583.894,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":12598.96,"end":12599.861,"text":"國務部長你有注意到這件事嗎?"},{"start":12629.501,"end":12633.824,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其他條文"},{"start":12650.518,"end":12676.083,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、二十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":12677.123,"end":12677.864,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":12693.584,"end":12718.365,"text":"所以他們的工資變成他們很重要的身分的一個來源所以我現在歡樂的就是說又遇到這樣的話看起來今年的產量是會因為又在同一時間會有相對衝高的一個效果我歡樂今年齁一起的價格跟他的成本萬不幸齁這個介紹不夠漂亮啊他的身分都卡關"},{"start":12719.744,"end":12735.882,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":12736.943,"end":12746.795,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":12755.509,"end":12778.568,"text":"因為水稻如果說供糧提高了以後,從我們過去的經驗,當年可能不錯,當年民糧也會跟著走。」市長、部長我都知道你的意思啦,因為很多農民,他們的心想就是說,要不然這個供糧的價錢來優管,尤其我們在剛才喔,價錢不好的時候,哇這個聲音就會更大。對,我們會...部長你必須要正視農民有這樣子一個聲音。我絕對會正視齁。你一定要正視農民現在對於整個齁,"},{"start":12781.69,"end":12782.431,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":12807.728,"end":12816.62,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":12825.231,"end":12834.716,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":12851.525,"end":12852.045,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":12872.534,"end":12872.914,"text":"三條之一及第四十四條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12891.007,"end":12896.549,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其中其"},{"start":12920.217,"end":12922.478,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":12950.077,"end":12951.879,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12964.248,"end":12964.929,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．三．"},{"start":12984.071,"end":13004.201,"text":"即宜或非營利自用的墓地的話是免罰但是需要被查。一般野生動物在非原住民的話依據21條是免罰並沒有需要被查。另外一個部分我們也看到院版關於第十九條的部分關於這些列補的方法"},{"start":13005.141,"end":13018.288,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":13023.591,"end":13045.602,"text":"這樣的一個文字。」所以我自己在修正動議我是希望說把原住民族的傳統列據把它分別的列出另外也連動到21條之一也希望去做一個分別的處理把它納入傳統列據再來就是希望能夠鑑於資訊落差有一個兩年的輔導期"},{"start":13049.164,"end":13050.326,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":13064.867,"end":13086.963,"text":"所以我們這次的修法台用這個授甲的部分是很明確的而且還有它的定義的部分那第二個部分就是您提到說就是當我實施以後有兩年的一個緩衝期的部分我要跟委員說明就是說當我們做禁止的時候我如果提供了兩年的緩衝期那對於在使用這個獵具的人他就會"},{"start":13087.964,"end":13116.933,"text":"等到兩年以後再說,那我們同步在推改良式的這些列具,所以我們希望說改良式的列具能夠盡快的去推。所以我特別要請袁明慧這個地方要幫忙一下,就是關於什麼是傳統列具,它的規範、它的輔導,那個我希望袁明慧一起來推動這個部分好不好?好,各位委員報告,其實相關的辦法我們也跟這個林保署也開過很多的會議,那如同剛剛部長所說的這個負面表列的這個部分,"},{"start":13117.433,"end":13118.474,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13146.616,"end":13163.283,"text":"他的案件申請是每一年的一月一號到四月底但是呢根據我們的草案說施行後的一年內他是用框定一年內如果你要針對七年的以上的照領呢要終止他要加入進法補償是很好"},{"start":13164.804,"end":13193.499,"text":"免返還已領取的照領獎勵金。」所以這個部分是很好的一個權益可是我們很關心何時上路因為他進法補償的申請到四月底如果沒有配合的話他們這一整年的權益就會損失所以希望農業部跟園民會能夠把這個空窗期去研議一下他是要針對今年做一個例外展演還是怎麼做我希望這個部分就是做一個提醒"},{"start":13194.259,"end":13194.66,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13211.713,"end":13239.685,"text":"他因為年紀沒有趕上國民年金的上路所以他現在變成被排除的一群老人家處境牽連那我覺得政府對於不能夠改善他們的問題我也覺得過不去啦吼那我特別看到農業部這個地方其實有講到辦理農保的目的是為了要照顧長期從事農業工作的農民在發生事故的時候他的經濟生活可以保障可是另外也特別提到說"},{"start":13240.145,"end":13254.593,"text":"條文修正草案案 並不鼓勵長期從事其他職業領有社會保險其他的老年給付的。」那因為就把他認為說他已經有晚年生活的基本保障所以他不得參加農保可是我有講到"},{"start":13255.253,"end":13272.274,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":13273.195,"end":13285.846,"text":"三條之一、第三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":13295.674,"end":13296.974,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":13316.721,"end":13319.143,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜（三（三月一日的院會質詢（三（三月一日的院會質詢（三（三月一日的院會質詢（三（三月一日的院會質詢（"},{"start":13340.419,"end":13341.78,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":13355.894,"end":13375.03,"text":"但是能夠有房舍卻不能夠有這種露營帳篷其實這是蠻奇怪的而且土石流潛勢去把它劃設他只是希望我們能夠去做一個防減災的工作所以我希望說這個法源依據他的理由我還是希望能夠到我的辦公室來做說明好不好"},{"start":13375.69,"end":13376.43,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件。"},{"start":13403.919,"end":13408.202,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員。接下來我們請洪孟凱,洪孟凱,洪孟凱委員不在,我們請洪勝翰委員發言。請陳部長。"},{"start":13432.077,"end":13457.148,"text":"兩位好部長我想你應該知道地面型的光電是其實在近期在中南部其實引起了很多這個環境生態相關的討論是那我們在很多報導裡面其實看到好像變成業者社區NGO其實常常處在一種衝突的關係是局面下"},{"start":13458.408,"end":13479.456,"text":"但其實我們仔細去看國外的一些做法會發現其實國外好像已經有很多成功的案例透過一些我覺得很具巧思的設計跟配套讓光電在自然生態跟農業生產其實蠻多融合雙贏的例子比方說你看一下在左邊這個英國的案例裡面你可以看到"},{"start":13480.546,"end":13495.532,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":13510.622,"end":13518.869,"text":"條文修正草案案 讓這透過設計讓衝突能夠走向共榮甚至是多贏。部長你覺得值不值得推廣?"},{"start":13520.523,"end":13545.128,"text":"我個人認為光電結合農業就是以農為本光電加持這個概念那最重要的一點就是在臺灣現在當然沒有錯很多地景會都很好那不過我以實務上來看我先問你說如果能夠做得到我先說如果能夠真正的做到像歐洲那樣子的話我覺得是絕對可以往前去思考你覺得同不同意"},{"start":13545.968,"end":13559.125,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":13561.135,"end":13561.635,"text":"三（三（三（三（三（三（三（"},{"start":13584.076,"end":13596.384,"text":"那這個光電業者是委託人提撥了一筆所謂生態補償金那銀行是作為受託人那銀行在把這筆錢給生態跟環境專業的NGO"},{"start":13599.417,"end":13617.551,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條"},{"start":13628.274,"end":13643.847,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":13644.708,"end":13658.613,"text":"不過我想信託是一個方法之一但是我要回到本質就是說當我這個光電進到這個場域的時候是不是能夠維持那邊的勝那才是重點而不是用信託我今天跟你討論這件事情最重要的事情是"},{"start":13659.488,"end":13680.501,"text":"其實有很多民間的團體包括環保團體在做各項的嘗試但是他們現在他們希望能夠用公益信託的方式我們公益信託其實是要跟主管機關來做申請但我們其實目前生態保育的主管機關我們沒有訂公益信託的執法所以呢"},{"start":13682.531,"end":13702.469,"text":"這個現在反而是這些思考能夠怎麼讓事情能夠更雙贏的NGO的組織他必須要用所謂的他意信託的方式這個他意信託他最高反而要繳20%的稅額部長你覺得在你心中公益信託的理念假如他真的有公共利益的話"},{"start":13703.561,"end":13724.526,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":13726.627,"end":13730.93,"text":"他不是針對生態保育部分的。我同意他應該要符合所謂的公義但是我們連執法都沒有我們連要去判斷他符合公義都沒有辦法了解"},{"start":13754.335,"end":13762.121,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":13777.012,"end":13779.253,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":13794.161,"end":13816.833,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,不僅與你剛才的觀念是兩件事,不一定是結在一起,因為它有很多很多種生態的保育是由保育團體來做的。我認為剛剛我講的案例有機會成為公益系統裡面好的案例,但這件事情當然不是唯一的,可是大家可以專業來做判斷,可是當你們執法都沒有的時候,連判斷的依據,連判斷的操作執行都沒有。"},{"start":13818.213,"end":13842.612,"text":"兩個月內把我們公益信託的執法給訂出來來參考其他部會至少把執法訂出來有沒有問題?我想我可以承諾就是把執法的草案我們先跟公益團體討論以後一個基本的草案不是把因為訂出來本身要有非常多的程序是我們把整個的規劃的草案先兩個月我們找相關的團體包括業者等等等我們討論包括也許銀行"},{"start":13843.473,"end":13846.374,"text":"條文修正草案案案項提出來,然後找相關的團隊大家一起討論,我覺得這是一個重要的基礎。」"},{"start":13874.133,"end":13897.758,"text":"條文修正草案條例第十九條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":13902.579,"end":13921.03,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":13925.433,"end":13942.474,"text":"台灣黑熊、川山甲、台灣水路、山羌這些例子都還是有在發生那這件事情已經討論很多年了我還是想要再次請教我們農業部有沒有機會再把這個山豬釣放進來如果沒有辦法配套措施是什麼"},{"start":13943.629,"end":13967.555,"text":"你跟委員說明就是我們現在目前把這個售假的部分先做全面的禁止那至於刪除掉的部分我在一開始報告也說明了就是說因為目前靠近山區的農民還有一些原住民部落他還有必須使用的空間但是同一時間我們也更積極的推廣改良市的這些列據那我們希望說讓改良市的列據更積極的推動"},{"start":13968.655,"end":13987.54,"text":"那因為19條有授權我們可以公告其他的這個禁止使用的這些列據所以我們預計齁如果說我們順利的把這些改良式的列據推廣以後我們在一年之內就可以把這個刪除掉的部分去做一個禁止好謝謝部長的說明意思就是說我們在一年內會把這個過渡期完成讓"},{"start":13989.22,"end":14003.57,"text":"可以全面的汰壞成改良式的列具。好,那這個承諾必須要去執行希望今年底之前我們在一年內就讓它可以完全的汰換掉而不是繼續的無限的繼續讓有這個空間使用那變成說山豬釣其實一直都還是存在"},{"start":14008.914,"end":14019.581,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":14036.371,"end":14054.041,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":14064.947,"end":14083.215,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":14087.017,"end":14108.617,"text":"因為當這個等你們公告出來之後刪除掉就是非法的我希望讓大家有一個明確的認知然後也有這個充分的溝通那最後還是要問一下說因為這個其實在你們這個19條裡面有講到說其他金主管機關公告的禁止的方法是可以有一個空白的授權"},{"start":14109.458,"end":14125.773,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":14131.698,"end":14132.779,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一"},{"start":14152.193,"end":14153.174,"text":"條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":14167.588,"end":14168.329,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":14185.832,"end":14214.658,"text":"那討論事項所列遠洋漁業條例及野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案合併詢答結束現在進行廣泛討論。廣泛討論沒有人發言登記接著我們進行逐條討論請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢之後再進行協商請宣讀那宣讀的期間我們那個同仁可以自己先行用午餐"},{"start":14215.779,"end":14225.618,"text":"請宣讀。宣讀海洋漁業條例行政院提案第十四條之一涉及非法未報告或不受規範於撈住業之漁獲"},{"start":14228.496,"end":14250.217,"text":"於貨物或漁產品不得進口,前向於貨物或漁產品之品項載運或捕撈資訊由主管機關公告之因國際條約協定聯合國決議或國際合作需要或未打擊非法未報告或不受規範漁撈作業之目的,主管機關得公告特定國家地區之全部或部分漁獲"},{"start":14251.218,"end":14266.125,"text":"物或漁產品不得進口不得進口之原因消失時主管機關應急公告解除其限制。第36條之一有下列情形之一者處限臺幣六百萬元以上三千萬元以下罰還。依違反第十四條之一第一項規定"},{"start":14267.345,"end":14294.187,"text":"進口涉及非法未報告或不受規範於撈作業之漁貨物或漁產品。二）違反第十四條之一、第三項鎖定主管機關公告至特定國家或地區進口漁貨物或漁產品。最近一年內違反前項規定第二次以上者處新台幣九百萬元以上、四千五百萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰。第四十七條本條例自公布後六個月施行本條例修正條文自公布日施行。"},{"start":14296.209,"end":14324.261,"text":"委員邱鎮軍等18人提案第三條本條例是主管機關為農業部第十四條之一除第三項第一行協定因國際條約協定聯合國協定聯合國之間沒有動畫其與同行政院提案之內容第39條之一同行政院提案第36條之一條文內容第47條同行政院提案委員楊瓊瓔等人提案第14條同行政院提案"},{"start":14324.801,"end":14336.985,"text":"第三十八條之一、第一項同行政院提案第三十六條之一條文內容第二項最近一年內違反前項規定第二次以上者處新台幣八百萬元以上四千萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰"},{"start":14341.075,"end":14357.663,"text":"宣讀野生動物保育法行政院提案第二條本法所稱主管機關在中央為農業部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府但海域野生動物保育之中央主管機關為海洋委員會第十九條列補野生動物不得"},{"start":14359.585,"end":14388.665,"text":"以下列方式為之一使用炸藥或其他爆裂物二使用毒物三使用電器麻醉物或麻痹之方法四架設網具五使用獵槍以外之其他種類槍械六使用陷阱或特殊獵捕工具七使用獸匣八其他經主管機關公告禁止之方法使用前項各款鎖定方法獵捕野生動物者主管機關得盡以排除或拆除"},{"start":14389.626,"end":14405.724,"text":"並銷毀之土地所有人、使用人或管理人不得規避、拒絕或妨礙、第二十一條野生動物有下類情形之一者得與獵捕或宰殺不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第一款"},{"start":14406.761,"end":14431.127,"text":"至第六款規定之限制但保育類野生動物除情況緊急外應先報請主管機關處理一、有危及公共安全或人類性命之餘二、危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖三、傳播疾病或病蟲害四、有妨礙航空安全之餘五、其他經主管機關核准之情形保育類野生動物有防"},{"start":14431.567,"end":14447.335,"text":"有危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖在緊急情況下未及報請主管機關處理者得以主管機關和定之人道方式予以獵捕或宰殺以防制危險。第21條之一"},{"start":14449.226,"end":14468.609,"text":"台灣原住民族與其傳統文化既宜或非營利致用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第一款至第六款規定之限制,前項獵捕、宰殺或野生動物之必要者不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第一款至第六款規定之限制,前項獵捕、宰殺或野生動物之必要者不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項至第六款規定之限制,前項獵捕、宰殺或野生動物之必要者不受第十七"},{"start":14468.829,"end":14493.245,"text":"或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或被查其申請核准或被查之情形得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物必要情形申請程序應檢附文件獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量獵捕期間區域管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。"},{"start":14493.965,"end":14512.774,"text":"第三十七條保育類野生動物於飼養或繁殖中應妥為管理不得易失如有易失時所有人或戰友人應通報當地直轄市縣市主管機關及自行積極為補並得報請該直轄市縣市主管機關協助為補協助為補所需相關費用由所有人或戰友人負擔"},{"start":14513.554,"end":14537.929,"text":"議事之保育類野生動物直轄市縣市主管機關必要時得主動維補,其維補收容及佔養所需相關費用得由所有人或戰友人負擔。第五十條之一,保育類野生動物之所有人或戰友人違反第37條第一項規定與保育類野生動物議事時會通報當地直轄市縣市主管機關或為積極維補者處心臺幣三萬元以上、十五萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":14541.631,"end":14569.554,"text":"第五十一條有下列情形之一者處心臺幣一萬元以上五萬元以下罰還一違反第十二條第一項規定無正當理由規避拒絕或妨礙野生動物資源調查或保育計劃實施二違反第二十條第一項規定未經登記進入第十七條劃定區列補一般類野生動物或主管器官劃定之垂釣區或離開時未報名獲取野生動物之種類數量"},{"start":14571.368,"end":14597.456,"text":"三）違反第24條第一項規定為經中央主管機關之同意輸入或輸出一般類野生動物之活體。四）違反第28條規定為於輸入輸出保育類野生動物或其產製品之日期一年內向中央主管機關提出相關報告或提出之報告內容不實。五）違反第31條第一項規定於中央主管機關指定公告前飼養繁殖保育類"},{"start":14598.837,"end":14625.356,"text":"或有害生態環境人畜安全之餘之原非我國原生種野生動物或持有保育類野生動物產製品其所有人或戰友人為一線報請當地直轄市縣市主管機關登記備查或登記備查之內容不實又違反第31條第二項規定於中央主管機關指定公告後輸入轉讓取得保育類或有害生態環境人畜安全之餘之原非我國原生種野生動物"},{"start":14626.465,"end":14651.312,"text":"或保育類野生動物產製品,其所有人或戰友人為依現象直轄市縣市主管機關登記備查或登記備查之內容不實。七（違反第31條第三項規定,未經主管機關同意繁殖保育類或有害生態環境人畜安全之餘之原非我國原生種野生動物。八（違反第31條第六項規定,無正當理由規避拒絕或妨礙主管機關或其委託之機關團體實施註記或查核。"},{"start":14654.753,"end":14678.736,"text":"九、違反第35條第一項規定被意圖販賣而未經主管機關之同意在公共場所陳列或展示保育類野生動物或其產製品。十、違反第38條規定於濱林絕種或珍貴稀有野生動物死亡時,所有人或在有人未依現將死亡解剖書或死亡證明書送交直轄市縣市主管機關備查。"},{"start":14680.615,"end":14709.554,"text":"十一所有人或戰友人拒絕依第39條規定出售野生動物之屍體。第51條之一,原住民族基於其傳統文化、記憶或非營利自用、獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物違反依第21條之一、第二項鎖定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形,得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量、獵捕其間區域或管理之規定者,"},{"start":14710.014,"end":14722.015,"text":"一下列規定處罰一屬保育類野生動物處新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還二屬一般類野生動物處新台幣一千元以上一萬元以下罰還"},{"start":14723.629,"end":14752.318,"text":"第五十二條辦第四十條、第四十一條、第四十二條或第四十三條第三項之罪查獲之保育類野生動物與其產製品及供犯罪所用之劣具、藥品、器具、工作物施工材料及所使用之機具不問屬於犯罪行為人與否得沒收之違反本法之規定除嫌像規定者外查獲之野生動物與其產製品及供違規所用之劣具"},{"start":14753.338,"end":14777.377,"text":"藥品、器具、工作物、施工材料及所使用之機具不會屬於何人所有,得目錄之。請向經目錄之務必要使主管機關得公開放生、遣返、典藏或銷毀之。其所需費用得向違規之行為人收取。海關或其他查緝機關對於依法目錄或處理之保育類野生動物及其產製品,得委由主管機關依前項規定處理。"},{"start":14780.219,"end":14802.612,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案、第二條同行政院提案條文、第十九條同行政院提案條文、第二十一條同行政院提案條文、第二十一條之一第一項同行政院提案條文、第二項前項列補宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關備查,其得列補宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、申請程序"},{"start":14803.472,"end":14825.001,"text":"應檢附文件、列補方式、列補動物之種類數量、列補其間區域管理及其他應專行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。第37條同行政院提案條文,第50條之一同行政院提案條文,第51條同行政院提案條文,第51條之一"},{"start":14826.401,"end":14854.956,"text":"原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利資用、獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物違反依第21條之一、第二項鎖定辦法中有關申請被查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類數量、獵捕期間、區域或管理之規定者處新台幣一千元以上、一萬元以下罰還,但首次違反者不罰。第52條同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":14856.141,"end":14879.095,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等提案。第十九條第一項第一款至第六款同行政院提案條文。第七款使用壽夾、金屬製、金屬套索等易造成目標以外野生動物永久傷殘死亡之工具。第八款同行政院提案條文。第二項使用或設置前項各款之物品、網具、陷阱、壽夾或其他列具者"},{"start":14879.515,"end":14905.189,"text":"主管機關得禁與排除或拆除並銷毀之土地所有人、使用人或管理人不得規避、拒絕或妨礙。」第21條同行政院提案條文。第21條之一、第一項同行政院提案條文。第二項,前項列補宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或被查,其申請或被查之應檢附文件程序及其列補方式、傳統列據、列補動物之種類數量"},{"start":14907.37,"end":14916.637,"text":"列補期間區域及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央援助民族主管機關定之。第51條之一"},{"start":14917.662,"end":14943.355,"text":"原住民族違反第21條之一、第二項規定列補宰殺或利用野生動物違反一、第二十一條之一、第二項鎖定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之應檢附文件程序及其列補方式傳統列具列補動物之種類數量列補其間區域及其他應遵行事項之規定者依下列規定處罰第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":14943.925,"end":14966.813,"text":"第五十二條犯第四十條、第四十一條、第四十二條或第四十三條第三項之罪查獲之保育類野生動物與其產製品及供犯罪所用之劣具、藥品、器具、工作物、施工材料及所使用之器械工具不問屬於何人所有,得沒收之。"},{"start":14967.473,"end":14993.374,"text":"違反本法之規定除前項規定者外查獲之保育類野生動物與其產製品及公違規所用之列具藥品器具工作物施工材料及所使用之器械工具不問屬於何人所有得目錄之第三項同行政院提案條文第四項海關或其他查緝單位對於依法目錄或處理之保育類野生動物及其產製品得委由主管機關依前項規定處理。"},{"start":14996.26,"end":15018.395,"text":"委員黃婕等提案。第十九條同行政院提案條文。第21條同行政院提案條文。第21條之一同行政院提案條文。第37條同行政院提案條文。第50條之一同行政院提案條文。第51條同行政院提案條文。第51條之一同行政院提案條文。第52條同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":15019.175,"end":15043.87,"text":"委員吳立華等提案、第二條同行政院提案條文、第十九條第一項第一款至第五款同行政院提案條文、第六款使用陷阱售夾或特殊獵捕工具、第七款其他經營主管機關公告禁止之方法、第二項同行政院提案條文、第二十一條野生動物有下列情形之一者"},{"start":15044.33,"end":15055.777,"text":"條的予以列補或宰殺,不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項各款規定之限制,其文字同行政院提案條文。」"},{"start":15057.011,"end":15076.806,"text":"第21條之一,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化既已或非營利自用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者,不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項、第十九條第一項各款規定之限制,前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為,應經主管機關"},{"start":15077.666,"end":15091.593,"text":"合准或備查、其申請或備查之情形、得獵捕宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、程序、因檢附文件、獵捕方式、原住民族傳統獵具含售甲、獵捕動物之種類數量、"},{"start":15093.001,"end":15107.568,"text":"列補期間區域管理及其他應遵行事向之辦法由中主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。第37條保育類野生動物於飼養或繁殖中應妥為管理。"},{"start":15108.735,"end":15129.178,"text":"不得易施,如有易施時,所有人或戰友人應通報當地直轄市縣市主管機關及自行積極為補,並得報請該直轄市機關協助為補。協助為補所需相關費用由所有人或戰友人負擔,易施之保育類野生動物直轄市縣市主管機關必要時得主動為補。"},{"start":15130.319,"end":15159.188,"text":"其微補收容及佔養所需相關費用應由所有人或佔有人負擔。」第五十條之一同行政院提案條文。第五十一條第一項第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文。第九款違反第三十五條第一項規定非意圖販賣而未經主管機關之同意在公共場所陳列或展示保育類野生動物瀕臨絕種或珍貴稀有野生動物產製品者。第十款同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":15159.748,"end":15186.382,"text":"第十一款,所有人或戰友人拒絕依第39條規定出售野生動物之屍體者。第51條之一,原住民族基於其傳統文化、記憶或非營利自用、獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物,有違反第21條之一第二項鎖定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形,得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類數量、獵捕其間區域"},{"start":15188.303,"end":15216.549,"text":"或管理之規定者處新臺幣一千元以上以萬元以下罰還但首次違反者不罰。第五十二條第一項同行政院提案條文第二項違反本法之規定除前項規定者外查獲之保育類野生動物與其產製品及公違規所用之列具藥品器具工作物施工材料及所使用之機具不問屬於何人所有得目錄之第三項及第四項同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15218.362,"end":15247.758,"text":"委員郭玉琴等提案。第四條野生動物區分為下列二類一、保育類指瀕臨絕種珍貴稀有及其他應與保育之野生動物二、一般類指保育類以外之野生動物前向第一款保育類野生動物由野生動物保育諮詢委員會評估分類由中央主管機關指定公告製作名錄並每年更新一次。第十九條第一項第一款至第六款同行政院提案條文第七款"},{"start":15248.258,"end":15270,"text":"使用瘦甲金屬製吊索等抑制目標以外動物死亡受傷之無差別式列具。第八款同行政院提案條文第二項使用或設置前項各款鎖定方法列補野生動物者主管機關得禁與排除或拆除並銷毀之徒弟所有人使用人或管理人不得規避拒絕或妨礙"},{"start":15271.041,"end":15287.744,"text":"第21條第一項野生動物有下列情形之一得予以獵捕宰殺不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項第三款至第六款規定之限制後段文字至第四款同行政院提案條文第五款"},{"start":15288.264,"end":15311.219,"text":"其他經主管機關核准者。第二項同行政院提案條文。第21條之一,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化既已或非營利之用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者,不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第三款至第六款規定之限制。第二項同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":15312.318,"end":15339.805,"text":"第51條之一同行政院提案條文第52條同行政院提案條文委員呂玉玲等提案第十九條第一項第一款至第六款同行政院提案條文第七款設置金屬材質之套索陷阱第八款同行政院提案條文第二項未經許可擅自設置網具陷阱售夾金屬材質之套索陷阱或其他列據主管機關得禁與拆除或銷並銷毀之"},{"start":15342.216,"end":15368.163,"text":"土地所有人、使用人或管理人不得規避、拒絕或妨礙。第21條野生動物有下滅情形之一得予以獵捕或宰殺不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項第三款至第五款規定之限制後段文字至第四款同行政院提案條文第五款刪除第六款其他經主管機關合準者第二項同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15369.298,"end":15388.262,"text":"第21條之一,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化記憶而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者,不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第三款至第五款規定之限制,前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准。"},{"start":15388.762,"end":15399.536,"text":"其申請程序、列補方式、列補動物種類數量、列補期間區域及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央援助民族主管機關定之。"},{"start":15401.479,"end":15420.837,"text":"委員張雅玲等提案、第二條同行政院提案條文、第十九條同行政院提案條文、第二十一條同行政院提案條文、第二十一條之一同行政院提案條文、第三十一條於中央主管機關指定公告前饲養或繁殖保育類及有害生態環境人處安全之餘"},{"start":15421.457,"end":15449.015,"text":"支援非我國原生種野生動物或持有中央主管機關指定公告之保育類野生動物產製品其所有人或戰友人應填具資料卡與規定其縣內報請當地直轄市縣市主管機關登記備查或審查並跟時一同與中央主管機關指定公告後應核准輸入、轉讓或其他合法方式取得前項所列之野生動物或產製品者所有人或戰友人應於規定其縣內"},{"start":15449.875,"end":15474.196,"text":"此證明文件向直轄市縣市主管機關登記、備查或審查並更實一統一前二項之規定辦理者,使得繼續飼養或持有,非基於教育或學術研究目的,並經主管機關同意不得再行繁殖。裝主管機關針對第一項、第二項登記、備查或審查之野生動物及其製品,應公告相關程序、種類及其他應遵行事項"},{"start":15475.397,"end":15497.245,"text":"因遵行辦理事項,依第一項、第二項之規定辦理者,使得繼續飼養或持有,非基於教育或學術研究目的,並經主管機關同意不得再行繁殖。本法修正公佈施行前,以飼養或繁殖之第一項所列之野生動物,主管機關因於本法修正公佈施行之日起,三年內輔導業者停止"},{"start":15498.59,"end":15509.119,"text":"條文修正草案案 並得視情況予以收購,前向收購之野生動物主管機關應為投擅之安置及管理,並得分送國內外教育學術機構及動物園"},{"start":15510.925,"end":15531.142,"text":"或委託主管機關評鑑合格之管理單位代為收容戰養,主管機關認為必要時得自行或委託有關機關團體對第一項、第二項所列之野生動物或產製品實施註記,並得定期或不定期查核,所有人或戰友人不得規避、拒絕或妨礙,前項需註記之野生動物及其"},{"start":15531.542,"end":15555.94,"text":"及產製品質種類由中主管機關公告之。第37條保育類野生動物於飼養或繁殖病齡絕種及珍貴稀有野生動物中,依本法第31條規定辦理登記審查,應妥為管理,不得易失。如有易失時,所有人或戰友人應通報當地直轄市縣市主管機關及自行邀集專業人士協助為補,並得報請該直轄市縣市主管機關協助為補,協助為補所需相關費用,"},{"start":15561.064,"end":15589.893,"text":"由所有人或佔有人負擔,中央主管機關應公告為補執行流程,供直轄市縣市主管機關遵行,亦施之保育類野生動物。直轄市縣市主管機關必要時得主動為補,其為補收容及佔養所需相關費用,得由所有人或佔有人負擔。第五十條之一同行政院提案條文第五十一條同行政院提案條文第五十一條之一同行政院提案條文第五十二條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15596.618,"end":15612.647,"text":"委員張祺凱等所提修正動議,第51條之一,第一項同行政院提案條文,第二項首次違反前項行為者不罰,第三項因過失犯第一項第一款之行為者處心臺幣五千元以上,二萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":15615.509,"end":15640.223,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等所提修正動議第十九條第一項第六款使用陷阱售夾或特殊列補工具第七款設置金屬材質之套索陷阱其餘條文同行政院提案條文第五十一條有下列情形之一者處新台幣二萬元以上十萬元以下罰還其餘條文同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15643.971,"end":15660.86,"text":"委員林大化等人所提修正動議第十九條第一項、第七款使用原住民族傳統列據、第八款使用壽甲、第九款其他經主管機關公告禁止之方法其餘條文同行政院提案條文。第21條同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":15663.186,"end":15681.323,"text":"第21條之一、第一項,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利資用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者,不受第十七條第一項、第十八條第一項及第十九條第一項、第一款制、第七款規定之限制,第二項同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":15681.943,"end":15704.239,"text":"新增第三項因第一項情形而使用授甲於本法中華民國全年全月修正後二年內項中央主管機關自動報假免受其處罰,其期間必要時得延長一次,不得超過一年,中央主管機關應輔導其取得所需之改良式列具。"},{"start":15706.687,"end":15722.342,"text":"委員蔡宇等人所提附帶決議,野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案第21條之一,定名原住民族獵捕宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主委機關核准或被查,違者將依同法第51條之一,"},{"start":15726.084,"end":15742.451,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查之相關資料具建立資料庫並定期進行研究分析探究原住民各族群傳統文化生活區域獵捕行為獵捕種類與數量違法受罰探樣"},{"start":15744.296,"end":15768.9,"text":"與各類野生動物棲息保育之關係,藉此滾動式檢討原住民族狩獵自主管理政策,以達成堅固原住民族傳統狩獵文化與野生動物保育之目標。」宣讀完畢。好,我們現在開始進行協商。我們先處理討論事項第一案,遠洋漁業條例。來,請各位委員。"},{"start":15774.571,"end":15796.499,"text":"那遠洋漁業條例現在有邱鎮軍委員提案的是第三條本條例主管機關為農業部我們是不是就照案通過好不好照那個邱委員的提案好謝謝那請大家看接下來我們請看第十四條十四條之一對不起十四條之一"},{"start":15799.462,"end":15816.963,"text":"對,行政院版跟邱鎮軍委員還有楊瓊瓔委員的版本都相同,那我們是不是就照行政院版來通過。同意。條文的部分我沒有意見,但我只是提醒那個農業部的,在這個未來條文通過實行的時候要提早跟漁業界相關做更多的溝通跟輔導好不好。"},{"start":15817.463,"end":15820.246,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":15832.617,"end":15846.247,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條條"},{"start":15858.636,"end":15860.737,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":15884.796,"end":15891.439,"text":"兩邊的大螢幕紅色的那個是不是我再念一次我國漁傳說捕撈之漁獲物為國產漁獲非本條所規範之對象那這條最主要是讓我們國內的漁民不要擔心這樣更清楚了"},{"start":15907.666,"end":15932.537,"text":"條條文修正草案案。」案。接下來我們請看行政院版第36條之一、邱鎮軍委員版第39條之一跟楊瓊瓔委員版第38條之一的修正條文。大概就是對於罰還的部分的罰金有不同。楊委員的是800到"},{"start":15938.234,"end":15943.859,"text":"條文修正草案案案件的條文修正草案案件的條文修正草案案件的條文"},{"start":15964.636,"end":15984.892,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十七條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十五條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十七條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條文修正草案案件及第十八"},{"start":15990.557,"end":16005.706,"text":"第二項有關於罰還額度的部分跟各位委員報告是說第二次違反的時候依照我們法制的體力是原先第一項的罰還額度的1.5倍這是慣例第二個我們有關於進口跟出口"},{"start":16006.246,"end":16028.699,"text":"條的違反的額度目前再次違反的部分出口的部分是在25條的違反25條第三項罰則是在38條第一項第一款我們的額度都是一樣是900到4500萬所以建議各位委員是不是維持行政院版好那個楊委員您同意嗎那你那個條子要怎麼調來"},{"start":16030.765,"end":16045.718,"text":"是行政院版的條字在三十七條的前面也就是現在我們排的三十六條之一。但是你後面的那個部分呢?後面的第二次違規嗎?第二次違規就是行政院版的九百到四千五"},{"start":16047.106,"end":16074.744,"text":"條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條"},{"start":16077.104,"end":16077.824,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16092.54,"end":16112.378,"text":"第二條同意,因為我們當初版本送到立法院的時候,那時候還沒有改組。也包法的第二條,各委員的版本都一致。每個委員的版本都是把它改為農業部號,那我們是不是就照行政院版修正通過,好嗎?好,謝謝各位委員。接下來我們請看第十九條。"},{"start":16123.777,"end":16127.419,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":16143.803,"end":16169.853,"text":"九條我們是在第八款其他經主管機關公告禁止之方式我們後續會依這一款來針對現行市售的那個山豬釣的口徑來說小然後它的限定也規定要加粗那用這個方式來減少所謂現行山豬釣對這個野生動物的過度的這個傷害但是呢也可以讓"},{"start":16170.553,"end":16192.743,"text":"三區的農民跟原住民在進行受力的時候他還是有工具可以使用避免未來這些需求都存在的情況下所有的使用通通都走向地下化反而不利管理所以我們希望說請委員能夠支持我們行政院版本鄭天才委員之後楊瓊瓔委員請農業部說明一下"},{"start":16201.465,"end":16217.535,"text":"這個線型條文第十九條的第六款線型條文本來就有售假你現在單獨把它拉出來這個成為第七款"},{"start":16218.891,"end":16221.053,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":16234.923,"end":16249.233,"text":"條文修正草案條例第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":16250.134,"end":16270.242,"text":"條條文修正草案案案件及特殊列補工具在原住民是可以用的,但是我如果不把他拉出來,他就很難處理。因為這條條文會跟後面的條文有關係,尤其是針對第八款的部分,"},{"start":16271.886,"end":16282.853,"text":"及第八條條文修正草案案。」案。因為剛才這個農業部包括林業署的說明針對第八條"},{"start":16286.645,"end":16292.53,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":16314.639,"end":16317.021,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":16337.193,"end":16360.908,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 委員我們要先說明一下,授甲的部分應該所有委員應該都是同意授甲然後21條21條之一我們都是處理的那現在可能焦點是在於金屬套索等意造成目標以外野生動物永久傷殘的這個這一段的那有些委員的版本是特地都拉出來但是拉出來之後他寫在後面的條文"},{"start":16361.909,"end":16376.478,"text":"很多的委員都是全面禁止的所以委員可能要先討論是金屬套索等這種金屬套索是要全面禁止還是要部分禁止我知道我先說明"},{"start":16377.779,"end":16405.152,"text":"我強調一下現行的條文的第二十一條現行的條文第二十一條對原住民主的部分第十九條第一項各款規定不受第十九條第一項各款規定包括主管機關公告那個部分對不對那現在因為你的這個第十九條"},{"start":16406.698,"end":16415.822,"text":"及第八條之一、第三十六條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":16436.556,"end":16443.521,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":16456.189,"end":16456.91,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":16473.715,"end":16502.173,"text":"是一個是要去在在省走的地方啦。我想跟委員說明一下齁就是第一辦法本身齁就是其他經中央主管機關公告的一個方法那委員擔心說這個這個授權的範圍過更大嘛那因為我們考量到其他的版本其實大家最在意的就是刪除掉的部分的一個全面禁止那我們也說明了刪除掉在現行是有他必要必須要使用的一個方法所以我們也說過這個用決議的方式看可不可以用決議的方式處理"},{"start":16503.314,"end":16518.609,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項及三）本院委員會及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":16530.613,"end":16532.694,"text":"第十九條及第21條之一都保留。"},{"start":16544.127,"end":16545.827,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中﹖一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":16570.953,"end":16586.938,"text":"條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":16598.219,"end":16598.96,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16602.93,"end":16626.329,"text":"條文修正草案案的部分大家都認為其實它可以應該要有緩衝期剛剛你們也講到一年一年的時間嘛除了去加強推廣以外也把這個慢慢的退場所以這個部分是不是能夠把它放在立法說明裡頭讓大家更清楚的知道也會避免掉那個政委員他們認為完全空白授權給農業部然後"},{"start":16628.592,"end":16652.595,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具、「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":16654.212,"end":16669.798,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 。此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,"},{"start":16679.431,"end":16686.353,"text":"條文修正草案案 第1至第6條條文修正草案案 第1至第6條條文修正草案案 第1至第6條條文修正草案案"},{"start":16702.754,"end":16712.365,"text":"包括山珠釣的部分所以這個部分我建議主席我建議這個就先保留宋協商了沒關係那個我先讓洪孟楷委員"},{"start":16713.43,"end":16734.104,"text":"我只是一個地方在確認因為剛剛部長講的是說一年後你是要全面公告會禁止山豬釣還是會改成比較縮小因為這兩者還是不同看你們的這個立法說明的就是給委員的這個回覆其實你們是講是說是會改良式喔那還是一樣會使用金屬釣索對不對"},{"start":16735.845,"end":16757.763,"text":"三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案．一、二、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":16762.947,"end":16787.189,"text":"但你這樣還是沒有排除金屬套索嗎?那這樣其實是跟某些委員的版本是不符合的喔。山豬釣所謂現在大家詬病的所謂的危害是因為他的陷阱過細。對我知道,這個我都了解啊。故事造成是說有些這個野生根本他可能會到時候被截肢嘛。比如說他把他換成像釣魚線那樣子,他不是金屬。"},{"start":16787.83,"end":16790.833,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條"},{"start":16807.948,"end":16824.646,"text":"主席我是建議說因為這個大家在取得一個啦,養殖動物的永久性的傷害跟原民的權益間取得一個平衡點啦,那我是建議這個細節的部分是不是要詳細再做更清楚的溝通之後,那可以先保留,後面蔡徐翔再來做處理。那我們先19條先保留一下,然後等一下再回來。"},{"start":16825.947,"end":16826.627,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":16853.815,"end":16875.104,"text":"條的部分其實各委員的版本在於所謂的第一項的那個序文有關於19條到底哪幾款是要可以做例外的排除可以適用那目前來講我們行政院版的部分一到六款是一到六款的部分就是也就是說19條的第一項的第七款第八款是不可以用的那"},{"start":16876.244,"end":16902.555,"text":"那現在其他委員的版本有的是三到六三到五差別只在這邊所以現在的可能討論的部分我們還是建議是說是不是說排除的部分我們是不是第一款第一款還是不同的部分我覺得第一款是不是把它排除啦因為那個炸藥基本上你現在也買不到你也沒辦法使用嘛所以這樣的話我們可能就會變成是第二款至第六款如果第一條"},{"start":16904.929,"end":16932.135,"text":"二十一條的虛文排除的那個是從第二款到第六款沒有意見不過這個會不會因為這個第十九條因為我們剛剛是保留所以是不是這個文字的部分是要配合十九條最後的結論後再做這個文字的調整對因為這個跟第十九條有關係所以這個部分也是先保留了"},{"start":16933.875,"end":16951.911,"text":"條之一及第四十九條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":16958.937,"end":16982.993,"text":"第十九條第一項各款,所以你現在這邊改了,會跟前面的第十九條未來是怎麼改,所以會有連動,所以我是建議這個也是保留。所以這跟第十九條有關係的。 十九條各款的問題會影響到這邊的各款,還包括二十一條也一樣,二十一條之一也一樣。"},{"start":16986.994,"end":16998.944,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件 及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":17017.178,"end":17026.623,"text":"條文修正草案條例第十九條之一及第八條條文修正草案條例第十九條之一及第八條條文修正草案條例第十九條之一及第八條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例第十九條條例"},{"start":17036.508,"end":17058.541,"text":"所以他沒有到動到第八款如果說21條可以先走那主要是第八款那個山豬釣的退場時機跟能不能退場要不要退場及何時退場那個大家現在有意見我們先暫時保留所以假如21條大家沒意見的話我們是不是可以21條先走同意啦因為第21條的線型條文"},{"start":17064.682,"end":17092.45,"text":"條之一及第四十九條之一及第四十九條之一及第四十九條之一及第四十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一及第十九條之一"},{"start":17094.117,"end":17108.882,"text":"這個行政院版的第十九條,因為有變動,第六款的變動就是說到底這一個授甲要放在第七款獨立的第七款,或者是原本是放在第六款的"},{"start":17109.722,"end":17111.463,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":17131.082,"end":17157.198,"text":"在每一個委員的修正版本基本上也都沒有在其他的版本的對跟委員建議就是說我們現在看的時候19條也是要看行政院新體的版本跟21條這樣對的時候就沒有沒有一些差異性就一二到六二到六是大家有共識的所以我們現在看的我們現在因為在討論修正版所以我們現在看的不是看現行法我們現在要看新的提案版本"},{"start":17158.378,"end":17184.33,"text":"我們用從新的修法的提案版本來對照來比較。」我來說我補充說明就第19條第19條各委員的版本也不太一樣第19條各委員的版本也不一樣所以既然還沒有確定如果最後還是維持到"},{"start":17186.154,"end":17210.382,"text":"現行條文的第十九條的款各款一到七這樣的款如果還維持第十九條如果是維持這樣那你第二十一條是不是就會受到影響有影響啊就我們就以售假來講有緣有緣的版本還是放在第六款呢"},{"start":17212.183,"end":17219.806,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及"},{"start":17233.305,"end":17257.27,"text":"第十九條的第六款跟現行條文的第六款一樣嗎?跟政委員報告一下其他委員的版本基本上我們大致上都已經有先溝通過先有共識了所以他們不堅持他們就是尊重行政院的版本那現在您要講的那個部分是第八款的部分所以您是希望能夠保留這個山豬調"},{"start":17260.231,"end":17276.669,"text":"是不是包括它的落日年限、落日的期程?好,那這個跟其他的是比較沒有關係的。如果說第21條我們的第二款到第六款這個部分大家可以先同意的話。來,山翰。那個我想要請教一下齁,因為"},{"start":17284.252,"end":17302.949,"text":"第十九條條文修正草案案。因為當然現在一些版本裡面有把這個壽甲或者是放但是要放在第七款或第六款的差異但是我們在看他這個法第41條這次我沒有修的範圍那我念一下41條的內容好不好"},{"start":17305.595,"end":17333.877,"text":"因為有點連動到罰則啦齁簡單來說第41條就是下列情形之一處六個月以上五年以下的有期徒刑那在第三項部分有一個部分寫到說第一項之未遂犯罰之簡單來說如果從這個條文來看我覺得有些條文的處理上面這個罰則上面來看變成說如果家中"},{"start":17335.052,"end":17338.554,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":17357.605,"end":17358.346,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":17381.268,"end":17384.373,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案 案件中﹖一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":17396.209,"end":17410.755,"text":"委員因為現在我們把原住民的部分的條次通通拉到21條之一所以呢原住民的這個條文19條的部分原住民的部分都會專注都是寫在21條之一所以如果原住民有這樣的問題是用違反21條之一的罰則"},{"start":17414.697,"end":17417.058,"text":"條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":17437.37,"end":17465.008,"text":"這件事情目前就我知道有引起一些疑慮啦這個他們剛剛的說明是非常清楚嘛你必須使用才會構成刑責嘛因為過去的人過去不管是原住民或是過去有一些人會使用獸匣但現在禁止使用了但他不見得會把那個獸匣丟掉他有可能還是擺在家裡但是他沒有使用的話你就不會有所謂的未遂這件事情而且我要保育類野生動物"},{"start":17466.075,"end":17482.407,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":17486.368,"end":17502.32,"text":"條文在這,條文在這,未遂犯法則。」主席還有各位委員大家好,那我們那個刑法上的所謂的未遂就是必須要著手於犯罪行為但是未遂,那他的過程要見很清楚的就是說他必須要這個使用這個"},{"start":17504.101,"end":17529.09,"text":"禁止方法獵捕宰殺保育類野生動物,所以他必須要一個著手的動作,那如果你單純只是把它擺在家裡面的話,你沒有著手,那沒有著手的話就沒有未遂犯的問題。以上補充報告。這樣清楚齁。好,來,請問,好來,請問各位委員,那第21條,你們還是要保留嗎?因為跟第19條會有關係啦。"},{"start":17531.004,"end":17538.889,"text":"因為第十九條竟然保留,所以建議二十一條也是要保留。"},{"start":17547.799,"end":17548.76,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17569.889,"end":17570.97,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":17595.578,"end":17603.109,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":17612.315,"end":17614.296,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17635.383,"end":17640.046,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":17661.658,"end":17663.159,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":17679.585,"end":17703.269,"text":"所以我們才會說希望21條之一是我們這次的重點目標我們希望這個條文能夠儘速通過能夠也達到放寬原住民他對於獵捕野生動物被查的一個目標啦但是如果現在不通過我們現在執法規目前授權就只有核准我怎麼去放寬成被查"},{"start":17706.171,"end":17719.962,"text":"這個你們一樣可以依大法官的解釋來備長所以這個部分這個不是不行所以這個部分這個因為主席因為這跟第十九條有關係這個第21條之一一樣跟第十九條有關係的"},{"start":17729.038,"end":17752.262,"text":"大法官當然是針對那個個案去做解釋但大法官的但書是希望他們要提修法你才能夠一體適用未來有可能發生的這些情勢所以這也是為什麼他們現在提出修法的版本出來那我們既然不處理的話那未來繼續有這樣的一個事情我不能再拿前面大法官的那個案例解釋來處理這個不要隨便點頭"},{"start":17756.226,"end":17757.707,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":17772.125,"end":17774.206,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17788.854,"end":17792.917,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":17821.853,"end":17847.586,"text":"全體委員會按照大法官的解釋了。法務部。法院現在所有的案子都照大法官的解釋。你這樣講好像是這個大法官的解釋一點效用都沒有。不是。不是。不是一點效用都沒有。很多法院就按照大法官的解釋。行政機關也要按照大法官的解釋。"},{"start":17849.264,"end":17865.062,"text":"二）行政機關更要按照大法官的解釋。」我剛講了從民國94年2月5號延期法公布之前我們可以非營利自用我們不斷的修法修法"},{"start":17867.659,"end":17894.773,"text":"就是因為在內政經濟委員會審查完還要協商然後協商啊協商我們開了很多次協商就是沒有通過第二十一條之一就是沒有通過現在要增加很多的限制增加了我們很多的限制當然我們還要我們這幾天啊每天說到我們鄉親的意見"},{"start":17896.274,"end":17916.379,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":17917.898,"end":17918.638,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":17939.104,"end":17941.445,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":17954.386,"end":17982.463,"text":"那張委員有同意我們就不予修正齁?欸 幫他所補充一下意見喔就是說我支持願版但是我還是要求就像我今天質詢的喔農業部還是要做這個動物野生動物的識別跟一些相關的微博計畫齁這地方還是要去做一些規劃的流程啊這樣才能夠避免未來還有像之前那樣的原因好不好?對對我剛才在質詢的時候有回應了欸那我們就要維持現行條文但是那個相關的那個說明修正的部分還是請農業部"},{"start":17987.235,"end":17989.54,"text":"三十七條之一及第四十七條之一及"},{"start":17991.465,"end":18017.218,"text":"三十七條有行政院版有鄭委員、黃委員、吳麗華委員、張艾玲委員。行政院版的版本跟鄭天才委員版本跟黃潔範版本是一致的。然後那個吳委員的部分那因為吳委員第一項的部分要說明那個不是只有該直轄市機關應該還要少縣市的部分所以我們還是建議是說維持行政院的版本。"},{"start":18018.098,"end":18021.532,"text":"那另外張委員有關於說要登記審查的部分"},{"start":18022.776,"end":18044.107,"text":"條文修正草案條例第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條"},{"start":18050.931,"end":18052.172,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18066.563,"end":18074.911,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期經濟委員會第十四條之一及第四十七條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及"},{"start":18082.638,"end":18101.04,"text":"五委員的部分的第九款但是因為我們要回歸到違反第三十五條第一項的規定第三十五條第一項的規定是保育類野生動物及其產製品非經主管局院的同意不得買賣或在公共場所陳列或展示所以標的只要寫到保育類野生動物就好了"},{"start":18101.38,"end":18121.859,"text":"那五委員的部分是還加了濱林絕種珍貴稀有那在35條是沒有的所以我們建議第九款還是維持我們行政院的版本然後再來就這樣其他的都一致好來請問各位有沒有意見沒有我們就照行政院版本通過好不好好謝謝好來接下來我們請看第51條之一"},{"start":18124.11,"end":18149.589,"text":"五十一條之一的部分所有的序文的部分大家所有的委員的內容都一致那唯一有區別是在於是說保育類野生動物要不要加重處罰的部分那在行政院版的部分認為說保育類野生動物是要處二萬元以上跟十萬元以下還有第二個不同的部分是首次部分不罰的部分那在這一次行政院版是刪除的"},{"start":18150.009,"end":18152.173,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草"},{"start":18162.452,"end":18164.213,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":18181.778,"end":18203.432,"text":"相關的這些跟前面的那個原住民的條款有關係所以有關係所以這個部分我是建議也是保留了委員我要做個說明這個地方列補你要說明的是這個沒有依這個問題是這個會涉及到核准跟備查"},{"start":18204.434,"end":18209.576,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例文修正草案 條例文修正草案 條例文修正草案 條例文修正草案 條例文修正草案"},{"start":18233.413,"end":18233.973,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18250.521,"end":18271.201,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下大法會解釋的內容。我知道,我都看了。他的理由寫:「主管機關因審酌、和平、野生動物的保育、物種多樣性的維護及自然生態的平衡等重大公共利益,尤其考慮其珍貴性、稀少性跟存續危機的具體情形,"},{"start":18271.801,"end":18296.649,"text":"就原住民基於傳統飲食及文化的下因非營利自用之需而申請獵捕宰殺利用保育的野生動物部分持採特別嚴格的管制方案僅於特殊利益外,使得予許可,以求憲法上相關價值之衡平。」所以他大法官一解釋是希望我們要橫著這些因子去修這部法律"},{"start":18297.549,"end":18318.894,"text":"條文修正草案案 條例第十四條之一及第十六條條文修正草案 條例第十四條之一及第十六條條文修正草案 條例第十四條之一及第十八條條文修正草案 條例第十八條之一及第十八條條文修正草案 條例第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之"},{"start":18326.976,"end":18354.876,"text":"包括在這邊51條之一不是說你列補這邊罰的是說你沒有來報備你沒有來報核准如果你有定情證契約也不會有違反這個的問題這個只有針對一般狩獵你沒有來報准你就去列補保育類野生動物我們要跟委員做個說明主席堅持保留嗎不是因為前面也是要保留好那就保留"},{"start":18356.718,"end":18377.548,"text":"條文修正草案．事由．一．一條之一保留。來,五十二條。五十二條的部分,各委員的版本意思其實幾乎都是一致,只有小部分的文字。那賴若洋委員的那個第一項的那個前文,因為我們後來有做文字的修正,因為會重複,因為性情條文的文字是前後有點重複,所以我們把它做得更精簡的文字的調整。"},{"start":18380.03,"end":18400.428,"text":"第二項部分第一項是保育類野生動物第二項是違反本法的規定是針對所有的野生動物所以我們認為第二項的部分不能僅限在保育類必須是野生動物這樣才是會把所有的部分都涵蓋第一項是保育類第二項是所有的野生動物"},{"start":18401.169,"end":18401.829,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":18417.537,"end":18438.726,"text":"條之一、第三十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第四十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第"},{"start":18438.786,"end":18455.876,"text":"條文綜上農業部應就其定義明定於《野生動物保育法》施行細則,相關定義應納入必要時的邀集專家學者之精神,協助野生動物易施為補作業,避免造成民眾受傷或財產損失或野生動物傷害。"},{"start":18457.697,"end":18473.366,"text":"委員張祺楷等人所提附帶決議部落的狩獵依據傳統文化規範和禁忌衍生出與自然共生永續利用的智慧對於山林資源的永續利用作為首年但此事修法對於有狩獵文化的原住民族有些許影響"},{"start":18474.726,"end":18503.346,"text":"原住民需要一段熟悉與適應法規的時間,因此請農業部於本法草案通過三個月內在原住民族地區加強辦理修法說明會,並將修法說明會的時間與地點其成報告,送至本院委員會,宣讀完畢。好,來。負責決議第一案。第一案因為我們剛剛第21條已經保留了,所以那個深漢委員您的提案就保留了,好不好?"},{"start":18504.98,"end":18506.041,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18522.56,"end":18539.158,"text":"宣讀遠洋漁業條例協商結論,第三條趙委員、邱鎮軍等人提案通過,第十四條之一趙行政院提案通過,增加立法說明補充,第三十六條之一趙行政院提案通過,第四十七條趙行政院提案通過,"},{"start":18540.319,"end":18555.18,"text":"宣讀野生動物保育法第二條照行政院提案通過第四條維持現行法第十九條、二十一條、二十一條之一均保留第三十一條維持現行法不予修正"},{"start":18555.72,"end":18571.75,"text":"、第三十七條造行政院提案通過、第五十條之一造行政院提案通過、第五十一條造行政院提案通過、第五十一條之一保留、第五十二條造行政院提案通過、附帶決議第一案保留、第二案、第三案均照案通過。"},{"start":18573.871,"end":18592.69,"text":"好請問各位同仁照剛剛宣讀的協商結論有沒有意義沒有意義好沒有意義我們就通過討論事項所列遠洋漁業條例及野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案均審查完畢梁岸軍擬具審查報告提報院會討論那遠洋漁業條例的部分是不是要叫黨團協商"},{"start":18594.552,"end":18613.554,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．第十六條之一及第十七條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":18619.059,"end":18640.268,"text":"三條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十"},{"start":18642.528,"end":18667.482,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":18672.841,"end":18686.825,"text":"三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":18710.043,"end":18725.392,"text":"三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"}]}},{"id":"15800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15800","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373df7460912bad191e990a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4242f79c001bc0d545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會列席就「國家科技發展策略與布局」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-11","start_time":"2024-04-11T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-11T12:21:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13830,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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隔中校東路一路之隔他寧願坐在行政院裡面也不願意來立法院 是這樣嗎今天的東西他都完全就是很特別的交代很特別的交代 所以以後大家都很特別的交代就可以了那這樣子以後都不用部長啦"},{"start":2387.13,"end":2393.791,"text":"有格魁新上任也不用新上任格魁啦以後格魁也不用出來啦也不用備詢啦很特別的交代"},{"start":2396.581,"end":2420.876,"text":"副主委我沒有要為難你的意思你也是被派出來的嘛但重點是本席很好奇說今天召委那麼慎重的安排這樣的一個專案報告主委可以不來那是不是說主委在躲媒體還是說第一波的人事名單裡面520沒有他心情不高興還是有可能現在有公司傳說他有可能是未來的速發部長有沒有聽說"},{"start":2422.277,"end":2436.263,"text":"這個完全沒有聽說那之前吳主委在這個委員會的時候也被問到他那時候講是說他去意已堅他說他520之後就快樂的退休人他說在各行各業也可以為國家服務那我想請教"},{"start":2437.563,"end":2454.157,"text":"既然你被充分授權他有特別交代那他有沒有講說他520一定還是離開公職這個沒有也沒有所以你也沒有辦法回答嗎所以我沒有辦法回答很多東西你沒有辦法回答嗎個人的事情我沒有辦法回答你認為是不是主委應該還是要來我想再次再次致歉了要call outcall in還是二選一"},{"start":2466.349,"end":2494.118,"text":"再次致歉 對對對抱歉我想這個主委有特別交代官員520前不要有這種代退老兵的心態絕對沒有他們每天還是非常重要現在是新國會新民意1月13日之後我們都戰戰兢兢的因為我們都希望國家科技發展很重要但如果說用這種代退老兵的心態還是認為說520到了反正我拍拍屁股走人國科會跟我沒關係了船沒高水沒流"},{"start":2495.896,"end":2496.076,"text":"臺灣半導體供應很重要"},{"start":2510.641,"end":2526.208,"text":"臺積電我們真的也是要再一次的感謝臺積電以及我們所有的這些晶圓廠以及所有最重要的是第一線工程師說這些工程師地震發生之後大家都是逃難就工程師趕快趕回去休假的非休假的趕快趕回去就是要趕快來復工"},{"start":2527.348,"end":2546.661,"text":"去做整個機台的一個修復那現在台積電也講是說隔一天4月4號就已經講晶圓廠設備恢復率超過80%了那國科會也說竹科中科南科都陸續恢復中但我想現在確定一下此時此刻是不是所有的科學園區都已經正常的營運"},{"start":2547.628,"end":2549.249,"text":"4月4日媒體就已經報導80%了,現在幾號?4月11日"},{"start":2567.132,"end":2582.709,"text":"經過了7天時間了本時要問的是最新的進度不是應該掌握狀況怎麼樣來麻煩跟委員報告我想經營廠平時都有在做演練我現在只確認科學園區是不是都已經恢復正常了對幾乎了"},{"start":2583.69,"end":2605.882,"text":"大部分遺棄哪個小部分沒有恢復正常因為有些還要經過調教要做一些幾天的穩定度的試驗所以我們有沒有掌握有那有掌握資料在哪裡你剛剛講的狀況感覺是你沒有掌握有我們平常就有在跟各廠商聯絡那現在好你有沒有相關你現在手邊有沒有資料"},{"start":2607.062,"end":2619.608,"text":"到底現在恢復的程度到90% 80%還是還剩哪幾家廠商還沒有恢復有沒有這個資料我沒有辦法答覆每一個機台我們現在不是問你機台"},{"start":2621.634,"end":2636.673,"text":"來 副主委本席的問題有那麼難回答嗎科學園區是不是恢復正常的運作我完全了解讓我稍微回答一下這問題很重要大家其實都會關心哪些機台多少%但是因為這些有些牽扯到整個"},{"start":2637.714,"end":2638.575,"text":"本席問的是說科學園區是不是完全恢復正常運作"},{"start":2664.157,"end":2679.71,"text":"我相信應該還是有少數的機材在做調整因為機材的調整本身他要去重新去reset parameter但這個部分我問正常人問立法院今天是不是有正常開會你會跟我講說有兩個科長今天請假嗎你會問說今天"},{"start":2683.914,"end":2709.222,"text":"委員會就是有正常開會就有正常開會沒正常開會就沒正常開會今天我問說科學園區是不是有正常運作一直在跟我講說科學園區裡面可能有機台還在修復中我不瞭解我們科科會是在管這種事情的嗎已經正常營運這個點我們可以講那再來相關的因為這次0403地震而造成相關的損失我們非常關心目前掌握多少"},{"start":2709.842,"end":2722.556,"text":"目前是這樣子 跟國科會比較相關的就是研究實驗室當然整個學校包含各方面的損害部分我們在這一次科學園區裡面國科會主管科學園區裡面0403地震總共園區的損失現在初估有多少"},{"start":2731.19,"end":2750.281,"text":"目前因為整個恢復的營運那應該是相當的有限那至於怎麼樣去計算這個損失是不是都沒有去查這個牽扯到 對不起牽扯到產業它的內部還是認為說科學園區不關你們的事是關你們的事是關你們的事那0403那麼重要的一個地震"},{"start":2751.441,"end":2768.485,"text":"全台灣大家都在看我剛開宗明爺講是說全國際都在看因為台灣現在半導體的供應鏈非常重要但我現在在問的是說你們主管的科學園區這幾個科學園區裡面0403已經經過了一個多禮拜了那你們的損失到底有多少"},{"start":2770.7,"end":2783.544,"text":"整個硬體各方面跟科學延續這個損失基本上已經都是在幾乎是為無其為至於內部因為暫時停工他重新調整機台這個部分這屬於營業機密我請教一下來來來副主委非常好"},{"start":2790.606,"end":2794.65,"text":"206台南大地震南科損失多少錢李培欽多少錢科技廠知不知道"},{"start":2815.031,"end":2815.472,"text":"157億921的時候科學園區理賠多少錢?"},{"start":2822.097,"end":2841.844,"text":"委員這個部分是非常重要那我們現在講是說這一次0403的大地震是921之後最大地震比那時候206的臺南大地震還要嚴重結果臺南大地震那時候南科有損失到157億你現在跟我講是說這次0403為乎其為你的底氣從哪裡來?誰告訴你的資料?因為他在明顯具體的損害跟破片這個部分事實上我們比上次好很多而且委員這句我回答這個很重要"},{"start":2851.428,"end":2851.828,"text":"臺南大地震"},{"start":2874.455,"end":2886.219,"text":"是屬於內部的盤點還沒有公佈還沒有任何的公佈那你們也沒有掌握對不對我們一定要掌握是一定要掌握什麼時候會掌握到現在4月3日到現在4月11日已經8天的時間過去了還沒有掌握是不是就現在的狀況不是產業界本身也在盤點因為它真的要經過那什麼時候會掌握出來另外有一點就是剛剛講"},{"start":2897.122,"end":2897.403,"text":"副主委"},{"start":2914.107,"end":2939.595,"text":"本席剛剛也開宗明義講了真的這一次有很多的因素但是你們身為管理者其實是最不是說現在說好很多是因為這一些都是第一時間很多的工程人員很多的代班人員不眠不休趕快去來做搶修再者是地震真的是震央相對來講發生在台灣東南西北都是一個震央但是沒有發生在我們科學園區的震央那另外一個部分"},{"start":2940.055,"end":2948.124,"text":"現在的狀況是說我們到底過了8天了大家都還在睡嗎都沒有去掌握說各園區的狀況這才是今天本行難道不認為說今天來做報告的時候我們會關心這個事情國人會關心這個事情嗎"},{"start":2955.992,"end":2965.262,"text":"報告委員我們有密切但是這個部分也要廠商提供委員我們事實上都有密切運期跟產業我們回去把目前我們已經既有的產業的資料我們提供給"},{"start":2972.29,"end":2979.637,"text":"到目前為止我跟你說昨天教育部來次長都可以很明白回答說在第一時間內就已經盤查全台灣有505所學校有受損的狀況其中東華大學20億受損最嚴重花蓮女中2.2億其他學校陸陸續續回報"},{"start":2998.291,"end":3024.062,"text":"最後我們國科會在自己的幾個科學園區裡面到目前為止8天之後連最基本的說到底有多少損失到底現在狀況怎麼樣都不知道這就是國科會的一個效率嗎兩種損失是不一樣的一個是硬體的直接損失這個我們很容易估計但是是因為機台停工這個時候造了損失這屬於產業的這整個的...副主委今天下班以前給本席資料"},{"start":3024.902,"end":3025.762,"text":"主席,今天特別關心因為你們在第"},{"start":3052.438,"end":3067.39,"text":"第10頁裏面有提到近鄰科技近鄰科技是本期很重要的一個方向2050近鄰碳排以及氣候邊境因應法在上一屆的時候我們都一起共同推動"},{"start":3068.271,"end":3083.251,"text":"而其中有講到所謂的海洋能在之前本席也說過北海岸地區現在因為有合一合二廠都已經除役如果說能夠來針對北海岸海洋能的一個開發能夠利用既有的電網"},{"start":3084.392,"end":3105.192,"text":"不會增加布設電網的成本又可以掌握再生能源這是北海岸非常好的一個契機所以我們需要國科會針對海洋能在第10頁有投入的捕捉、運用、生產等相關的技術研究再精進這能不能做到"},{"start":3105.512,"end":3105.772,"text":"提出一個計劃"},{"start":3127.756,"end":3129.938,"text":"今天的質詢時間是6加2所以我請各位委員把握時間差不多時間"},{"start":3159.704,"end":3163.289,"text":"好,我們接下來請柯之恩、趙偉質詢。謝謝趙偉,我們請林副主委。有請林副主委。"},{"start":3180.466,"end":3193.752,"text":"林副主委,說實在我還是延續孟凱的這個談話我是非常遺憾今天你們的吳主委沒有到因為今天召委排的一個非常重要的科技發展那我們本來是希望能夠就教於吳主委"},{"start":3194.853,"end":3194.993,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3218.213,"end":3234.722,"text":"因為他認為可以透過這樣的一個委員會只要透過每個月所開的這個會議平台裡面還是可以串聯各部會沒有錯吧你覺得這個目標有達到嗎應該是有達到因為目前整個國科會的相關的科技計畫都是就全國或者各個部會的角度思考"},{"start":3235.262,"end":3262.054,"text":"是這樣子嗎?但是呢你改之後我還是要提醒我們副主委你覺得你們每個月開的會議當中呢每個部會所長我要問一下你覺得誰最不配合?你們每個月都要開會啊你們說要串流所有各部會跨平台的部會都來討論我們有些相關的特別是重要的科技產業發展你覺得誰最不配合?這個我現在甚至沒有辦法回答你沒有辦法回答?你有參加過嗎?因為我有參加過因為國科會的副主委一定是要參加的是那我自己當然是不參加然後你知道誰的出席率最低嗎?"},{"start":3263.152,"end":3263.873,"text":"最不配合的你們總共開了9次會議這些人"},{"start":3278.965,"end":3300.834,"text":"一次都沒有出席過都是找人來代位出席接下來跟你們最有關係的國發會目前為止是最有關係跟我們的科技部是最有關係的他也是7次找人出席更不要說其他的你看看你們當初所認為可以跨部會的這樣子的一個可以來整合串流就這些人沒有一個人幫你們當當做一回事你會不會覺得很心寒啊"},{"start":3302.264,"end":3314.493,"text":"我想有很多出席這個部分還有很大的空間還有很大應該努力的空間你看吧所以你們今天主委不出席到我們這邊委員會當中你們所開的會議裡面你們各處會的主管也都是派人來參加這個對於你們當初吳主委認為可以透過這個所謂的國科會來串流讓各部會有跨部會的討論其實這個目的是沒有達到的這一點我要跟林主委充分的表達數據會說話接下來我們來看一下"},{"start":3329.784,"end":3333.707,"text":"在我們2019年的時候我們全國科學技術的會議當中我們把人才的培育是認為是非常重要我想這個副主委是來自於學界所以你認為我們國科會目前為止對育才、留才、攬才有到你們所當初規劃的目標嗎?"},{"start":3347.158,"end":3347.298,"text":"主席"},{"start":3363.626,"end":3364.086,"text":"2020年比起到2023年倒退再往下來看"},{"start":3385.262,"end":3390.808,"text":"你特別提到的我們國科會所做的你看我們目前為止近10年來我們的STEM對不對我們的Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics這幾個10年來我們這些STEM我們認為是主管我們科技發展的10年來少了10萬我們再往下來看還有我們外國專業人員可以聘僱的你看"},{"start":3408.505,"end":3430.023,"text":"從106到現在逐年的降低這是我們認為人才、懶才非常重要的當然人才更不要說那時候在我當委員的時候我們提出了一個LIF的計畫希望能夠把海外人員來有一個橋接這項我想副主委應該非常的清楚只有我們4年花了4億多回台那時候我們就質疑這樣的這個有效性只留下的97個人我們再往下看所以這一連串的下來"},{"start":3434.861,"end":3452.957,"text":"副主委,你真的還是覺得我們人才、懶財、育才﹐達到你當初所認為的規劃方向嗎?還不夠,還不夠而且誠如剛剛委員指出來的這個其實當然有很多原因那這些原因其實我們必須要非常積極改善台灣工作的環境"},{"start":3453.618,"end":3479.703,"text":"所以說以往我們請人家回來如果台灣的整個工作環境尤其是科技人才這大家都會知道但是你們到底做了什麼因為我們的薪資我們各方面跟別人都不太能夠比所以我們報告委員所以我們從去年開始還有從今年開始去年事實上就開始有一千個博士班學生如果我們博士班學生他的薪水是遠比外面做碩士的產業來的低很多那博士班學生是來自於什麼樣的領域你們所培育的博士班學生是來自什麼領域都有"},{"start":3480.223,"end":3488.774,"text":"當然我們也不能偏會人文 人文也非常重要OK 好 那我們知道嘛 國會國際的發展我們今天就focus在我們的科技發展你看我們整體計畫當中 你說博士班的培育我也完全R&D是當然非常的重要啊但是你看我們基礎研究的這個能量 你看看"},{"start":3495.902,"end":3517.537,"text":"日本大概可以完全占整體的研發經費的12,包括你1000個博士,都是屬於這樣的經費。日本12.6,我們台灣7.45,只比中國大陸多一點點而已,你跟其他國家完全是沒有辦法。10年前還有9.8,你現在只有7點多。你告訴我你投入這麼多,這個數據會說話,你放在基礎研究上面,基礎研究是一切的根本。"},{"start":3518.197,"end":3533.377,"text":"主委 是不是這個樣子這一點我非常謝謝那個委員提出這一點這一點我日動到國科會之前曾經就寫過那時候大概7點0左右那其中一個非常重要的原因是國家投入基礎研究的整體預算太低"},{"start":3533.757,"end":3534.818,"text":"所以我們很希望能夠提高基礎研究本身"},{"start":3556.275,"end":3583.23,"text":"然後呢你們的主委還特別提到說除了這個東西沒有辦法我們希望民間他真的下任之後到民間去問他今天沒有來不然我很想問問他你如何讓民間也能夠投注在我們所謂的基礎研究你可以看得出來有多少投到民間基礎研究到目前為止不到一成所以你們都知道問題所在你們都已在這個位置上面但是你都提不出最好的一個政策這是我覺得非常可惜的地方更何況我們現在每個人都說AI AI"},{"start":3585.251,"end":3585.531,"text":"我想那個"},{"start":3614.956,"end":3634.896,"text":"科學委員其實也在學校裡面當過高級主管我們如果整個完全只是改名這個絕對換湯普換藥沒有辦法達到那AI真正的尤其在這幾年CHOP GPP的開始就是生成式的它會滲透到各個領域的應用所以應該是保原來的領域的應用非常重要那你把"},{"start":3635.657,"end":3635.897,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3652.671,"end":3653.371,"text":"參考指引是對於未來立法非常重要的參考目前在各個部會的運用我們都積極參與"},{"start":3678.988,"end":3690.377,"text":"你沒有積極參與你有積極參與當然大家給你的回饋非常的少你甚至有很多的民眾看了你的指引之後大家給你看事實的狀況只會告訴你這個不行那個不行然後都沒有告訴你什麼叫做行的你看看你們的指引我把它拿出來看吧不得取代什麼禁止使用不得向生成的部分亦不得怎麼樣這是民眾所反映的嘛這個不行那個不行你就好像前面有個繩索半馬索一樣你沒有告訴我什麼才是行這是國科會我們認為最需要的AI的參考的指引"},{"start":3708.712,"end":3714.776,"text":"我沒有辦法跟你談機密文件我光是一個指引把它擺出來你希望每個人給國科會能夠有一些的回饋問題是你這樣的一個指引沒有辦法給回饋這就如我剛所提到的很多大自然運燒我們台灣都認為AI"},{"start":3732.509,"end":3733.089,"text":"臺灣是打從到尾可以用到個AI好不好"},{"start":3757.839,"end":3773.862,"text":"所以這個東西對我來說是一個指出非常重要的就是在應用面我們更應該加強落地這個部分那我們當然也有其他的AI計畫在做這方面好啦那個副主委我真的覺得我個人覺得說從學界來到這個地方我們不是要只有理論當你握有這個權利的時候其實你可以好好把你認為你覺得很無奈台灣應該的發展方向你們都有你們的mind但是你們的action你們的action更不要說innovation什麼AI的內閣"},{"start":3786.625,"end":3786.985,"text":"再次邀請吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":3816.916,"end":3820.617,"text":"謝謝主席,我請國科會副主委好,有請林副主委委員早安副主委好這個台灣發生了花蓮的地震關於我們的產業尤其是我們科學園區的損失以及恢復這個大家都很關心尤其是因為台灣的半導體產業是全球現在整個供應鏈的關鍵所以呢,不只是"},{"start":3842.544,"end":3846.228,"text":"國人及世界都關心這一次我看了國際都給予台灣肯定即使發生了這麼大的地震我們的半導體沒有停工我們的供電也很快就來恢復所以德惠我來跟你請教說我們這個園區運作的狀況但前面我剛剛看到我們侯孟楷委員"},{"start":3862.526,"end":3866.01,"text":"我再詢問你說我們園區的恢復這個細節的資料請你會後要提供我在這邊要提醒國科會因為立法院最近也還在討論國會調查權的問題因為科學園區你們國科會你們是房東啊"},{"start":3879.745,"end":3903.501,"text":"裡面是我們台灣重要的產業有非常多的廠商你們提供的資料千萬不能去涉及人家的營業秘密因為這是涉及到產業可能影響到他的訂單甚至可能影響到了股市國會調查權不是你說或我說的算哪些資料可以提供哪些資料不能提供這個都有法律規定的必須要涉及公共利益你們才可以提供"},{"start":3904.461,"end":3907.983,"text":"所以說不管是在這個質詢台上還是會有提供的資料其實你們都要務必謹慎因為台灣的半導體產業全球都在關心簽譯法動全身其實你們要特別謹慎注意好不好我們這一次在這個地震之後我們國科會針對我們園區的穩定性我們是成立緊急應變小組怎麼樣來做這個機制"},{"start":3926.014,"end":3927.275,"text":"最主要的其實我們想要關切的是在我們園區的供電"},{"start":3943.843,"end":3947.125,"text":"我看我們台電也有一個強化電網韌性建設計畫我們預計10年內要來投資超過5600億裡面很重要就是要包括加強我們科學園區的電力穩定因為其實一秒兩秒對我們來講都是一個很大的損失跟負擔我們未來是希望可以朝向"},{"start":3966.454,"end":3967.395,"text":"．4月10日及11日二天一次會議"},{"start":3994.898,"end":4022.005,"text":"還有氣體那另外汙水處理設施那第一時間回報都是說都正常運作所以這個第二部分我們就開始問廠商有沒有受損情形需不需要遠距來協助那因為平常都有在做演練那這一次電也沒有停水也沒有停所以大部分的機台都是正常運作那當然震度達到一定"},{"start":4022.905,"end":4023.726,"text":"整體而言對營運損失應該是甚為"},{"start":4041.523,"end":4055.214,"text":"好 這個我們的緊急應變機制請你們務必要去讓它每一次的演練每一次甚至災後我們實際上面的運作都應該理當可以讓我們的下一次可以做得更好那也請國科會我們要繼續來投入因為這一次我們看到之所以我們可以半導體不停工然後供電能夠恢復這麼快"},{"start":4063.301,"end":4078.557,"text":"與921地震相比起來其實主要就是在於這些年來臺灣的供電的穩定性除了我們剛剛講到的電網以外包括我們投資綠能包括我們投資儲能這些相關的研究我們國科會都有來投入支持這部分我們也希望我們要繼續來加強好不好"},{"start":4080.819,"end":4097.348,"text":"接下來也是要跟副主委請你要特別關心的是我想我們的政府部會我們每一位的首長每一位的公務同仁我們都不能置身於社會室外那最近全國國人非常關心的就是數位性暴力"},{"start":4098.792,"end":4099.133,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4114.711,"end":4140.961,"text":"現在立法院也在討論兒少性剝削條例的修法那我自己也會提出版本但是我就在看因為我們國科會的研究事項裡面其實也包括了性品研究20年前我們國科會曾經支持過兒少性剝削條例的相關研究但是這性影像的散佈最害怕的就是它一傳十 十傳百尤其現在是一個全球的網絡甚至影像是傳到境外的"},{"start":4141.681,"end":4169.128,"text":"所以台灣有法人我們台灣網路資訊中心其實有進行一個研究案來做全球下架的研究其中也涉及到了運用我們的AI他用一部影片可以去找到其他這部影片還出現在哪些的網站就能夠去協助後續的執法來下架所以這個部分用科技來阻斷性影像的散播我們國科會可不可以來支持相關的研究"},{"start":4169.628,"end":4190.31,"text":"我們已經積極在規劃那因為尤其是數位這件事情是讓很多現在的這個相關的議題會變得更嚴重更快速傷害會更多所以我們事實上會等於是召集跨領域的你希望也有數位的專家不只是原來的這個關於這個兒少研究的專家我們會組成一個比較跨領域的團隊"},{"start":4191.391,"end":4195.853,"text":"最後要關心的是太空中心今天我們的火箭阿伯我們吳主任也沒有來有副主任代表吳主任現在仍在美國去參加美國太空博覽會"},{"start":4218.442,"end":4219.563,"text":"沒有看到中國的官方代表"},{"start":4238.835,"end":4242.877,"text":"今年中國也沒有受邀出席好那其實我們更加關心的是我們到美國參加這個博覽會合作了交流了哪些議題這會後希望可以提供資料給我們好沒問題那最後是呢在花蓮的救災裡面我們看到了太空中心福衛五號的應用我們緊急更改排程然後提供這個災前後影像的比對這是一個對國人來講是非常大的一個消息然後我看我們國人也湧入你們的粉絲頁來感謝你們"},{"start":4268.846,"end":4292.441,"text":"當然國內也關心的是我們還有福衛八號的計畫對不對目前預計的時程是如何福衛八號目前的第一顆衛星預計在114年底的時候會有發射的機會所以目前正在做整合測試的工作那明年可以做發射"},{"start":4293.237,"end":4312.726,"text":"已經在測試預計明年要來發射這是在我們第3期國家太空科技發展的長程計畫上次在這邊質詢的時候我有提醒吳主委我們相關的這個計畫還沒有看到你們提出來所以希望提出來之後趕快送來給我們瞭解參考好不好是謝謝好謝謝謝謝吳佩奕委員林副主委請那我們再來請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":4328.968,"end":4336.415,"text":"好 謝謝主席麻煩主席幫我請國科會林副主委好 我們請林副主委"},{"start":4341.584,"end":4369.06,"text":"委員早安林副主委你好你好謝謝我想今天主委不在那要跟你探討一些事情AI專法的一個進度我想剛剛有委員也在提到這個AI是我們現在非常重要的一個趨勢我們更希望AI能夠在未來再運用在所謂的網路影像尤其是這種暴力或者是兒少關係剝削到的一些影像那"},{"start":4370.39,"end":4388.5,"text":"主委曾經表示AI已經進入到這生活剛開始技術跟產業之外事實上理論倫理法治治理才是重點行政院已經有一個深層式AI的一個參考指引但如主委所說倫理法治跟治理才是重點請問AI專法目前的進度"},{"start":4389.841,"end":4390.743,"text":"有機會再提快?"},{"start":4405.645,"end":4407.687,"text":"因為國人現在對AI越來越重視的情況"},{"start":4426.347,"end":4451.084,"text":"國內的人包括產業跟各方面他不只是限制他也有創新所以我們要在中間限制跟創新當中找到一個適當的在台灣的這一條那這條線是需要溝通的所以我們事實上在年底這個部分事實上已經盡量加快速度了我們盡量加快速度如果能夠提早那我們當然是會提早跟跟那個我想給自己一個目標盡量加快哪怕是幾個月那因為"},{"start":4451.744,"end":4475.329,"text":"不管是國外我們為了一些AI的一些產業導致一些產業開始在做罷工到現在我們對於AI的一些影像我們都希望能夠透過AI來做一些防範治理我想科技的發展來看很多事情都已經被AI取代未來很多的類別都有可能被淘汰所以我想法治治理的這個過程當中我們有更必要的一個迅速好不好"},{"start":4477.708,"end":4490.583,"text":"好那副主委國科會的一個前身是科技部之前有執行科技醫療相關的一個計畫而在報告的第9頁有提到現階相段有一個相關計畫包含臨床資料庫"},{"start":4493.406,"end":4508.013,"text":"還有AI之跨領域的開發及價值應用．以臨床需求作為出發．主導醫學中心ICT的一個廠商媒合．組成9個整合性的跨域成熟團隊．本席想請問．像這個臨床資料庫與AI之領域．跨領域的一個價值應用．計畫其程式109年到112年"},{"start":4516.057,"end":4526.553,"text":"現在已經到期了,請問4年來總預算為多少?由哪幾個醫學中心和ICT的廠商媒合組成9個整合型的跨域成熟團隊,是否達到預期目標?"},{"start":4532.711,"end":4560.836,"text":"目前的目標其實是非常好的因為基本上醫學中心跟ICT廠商都合作的非常的好而且事實上我們在未來4年還有一個新的啟程的計畫目前正在這個扣案當中那4年來總預算多少過去的4年是吧對應該是可能有4億多因為我你可以好那你可以稍微提出幾個醫學中心和ICT廠商媒合嗎幾個醫學中心是吧對"},{"start":4562.296,"end":4588.832,"text":"產學處有沒有我們有兩支計畫我們有兩支計畫報告委員一支是那個生科處他是跨醫院合作的驗證那產學處有個智慧醫療產學聯盟因為我們是大概111年開始執行的那主要是像比方台大跟廣達那另外還有這個中國醫跟長嘉智能然後他們共同發展一些產品的驗證那希望往海外市場拓展然後能夠海外落地"},{"start":4590.865,"end":4617.543,"text":"好那另外一個我想跟你請問一下健康大數據永續平台計畫建置國家級的友善醫療生醫治療來做一個平台建置轉譯導向的生醫劇量資料應用生醫資料庫開發身影生物標記及疾病風險評估模式本期想請問健康大數據的永續平台計畫"},{"start":4620.075,"end":4636.496,"text":"計劃期程也是110年到113年即將到期請問四年來的總預算為多少?應該是差不多差不多嗎?已經完成了四分之三的計劃是否可以達到預期目標?這支計劃可能比較多應該有大概8億左右8億左右那不是差不多那是大佈稍微多一點好沒關係"},{"start":4638.939,"end":4650.513,"text":"4億變8億也不是差不多或多一點沒關係其實剛剛那個4億其實是有包含如果包含產期數的話事實上scale稍微大一點好那已經完成3⁴的一個計畫請問一下有沒有達到預期目標"},{"start":4651.516,"end":4651.676,"text":"主席"},{"start":4682.376,"end":4682.557,"text":"綜藝範圍多少?"},{"start":4703.16,"end":4718.579,"text":"這個預算應該差不多6億左右吧好那內文竟然說國科會長期耕耘新興感染的一個研究證一個研發研究電定防疫基礎自109年的嚴重特殊傳染COVID-19疫情爆發支援國內"},{"start":4719.961,"end":4739.912,"text":"防疫的一個重要議題檢疫治療預防公衛的流病以及社會影響場域的一個驗證國際合作我想做全方面的一個研究簡單的說萬一下一次來一個類似的COVID-19的一個疫情國科會能夠提供什麼給相關部門來進行有效的全面防衛"},{"start":4741.857,"end":4767.381,"text":"基本上這個任務跟衛福部是有部分應該理論上會重疊國科會的角度就是從科學研發我們希望用科學的方法來解決下一個疫情所要面臨的問題所以事實上我們跟很多醫院都有在做這方面的一個所以這個計畫你目前所籌備的相關資料有信心在下一次如果遇到COVID-19的時候是可以有效的提供"},{"start":4769.178,"end":4792.398,"text":"如果我應該說下次還是COVID-19我可以跟你保證一定沒問題類似但是是新興的病毒新興感染症的種類如果真的是很多的話我知道千變萬化但是我們因為之前這一次的COVID-19的一個防範機制我想這些都是演變出我們需要的一些科學數據或者是我們的經驗來做下一次的病毒演變的時候可以作為最好的防範前提"},{"start":4793.258,"end":4820.242,"text":"跟委員報告其實這次COVID-19的很多研究的能量基礎也跟上次SARS所累積出來的這個肺部的這個這個這個事實上非典型的這個部門感染事實上有很大的這個研究基礎研究能量所以我們不能臨時找人就是事實上它已經有這個連續但我們未來其實在目前這次COVID-19得了研究成果我們也希望長期的能夠作為未來若有新興的疾病本身也能夠也能夠能夠幫忙支持這樣子"},{"start":4820.822,"end":4845.919,"text":"好當然我們希望這些疫情的亂象不要再度的發生但是我們希望國科會因為有這些經驗可以給我們很大的一個參考是謝謝好那最後我想講就是太空中心我想太空中心我們因為立法院已經三讀太空發展法我想國際強權也作為太空的先行者主宰了大部分的一個市場跟組織台灣現在才要起步我們很擔心會越來越萎縮的一個情況之下"},{"start":4846.539,"end":4862.768,"text":"那在這樣子一個情況我們當然還是不能嫌晚嘛有做就是好事那2023年的太空中心成立喔國聯對他的盼望也很高請問火箭發射場的進度為何選址在哪好我們具體進度請我們那個你這邊"},{"start":4866.193,"end":4884.009,"text":"跟委員報告那火箭發射場目前已經第一次的委員會開過了他分三個階段第一個階段是要瞭解那訂定發射場址的條件第二個才會跟這個各相關的這個地方單位談之後呢"},{"start":4884.77,"end":4913.002,"text":"然後才確定所謂的候選場址第三階段才會決定場址我想時間有限沒辦法論述太久但是我想韓日中國大陸印度都有自己的發射廠也有成功台灣什麼時候可以在自己的國家發射火箭上太空這是我們的期許我想到現在只有在討論條件還沒有實際的一個選址我們希望加快速度這方面可以努力嗎比如說你的第一次會議第二次會議可不可以快一點"},{"start":4914.196,"end":4914.456,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":4940.804,"end":4941.967,"text":"謝謝主席,有請副主委"},{"start":4948.798,"end":4973.479,"text":"副主委早安我們來看一下這個第一張投影片謝謝我們看到這個太空中心的貼文你有看到嗎副主委那這個上個禮拜在花蓮地震後的隔天呢太空中心馬上釋出了非常多衛星照片讓很多國人同胞因為網路上其實流傳非常多照片其實造成大家的恐慌但是因為事實這個照片的釋出我覺得也讓大家的心情稍微安撫平靜"},{"start":4974.54,"end":4976.161,"text":"臺灣陸續來自日本、泰國、新加坡跟中國的資料畫面其實也在這一次地震上給予很多的幫助"},{"start":5004.135,"end":5021.428,"text":"請副主委簡要說明一下透過太空中心的計畫﹐木來表達我們台灣國會﹐對這個議題的關心跟感謝﹐可不可以給您30秒說明一下我想具體的內容我可以講﹐但最重要是說﹐我們一定要加入其他國際聯盟你才有辦法有足夠的資訊"},{"start":5022.77,"end":5040.813,"text":"當看我們國家的衛星其實是不夠所以這個事實上是在太空的衛星的部分跟資料的分享部分是一個很重要的那這個不僅是一個科技外交也是在實質上對於台灣的應用非常重要那具體在這一次其實是等於是很直接提供了我們不只是這一次啦我想其他的部分我們也都有利用其他的"},{"start":5040.973,"end":5067.157,"text":"我們來看一下下一張沒錯 這個加入國際組織非常重要就如同您說的其實從2010到2022年我們看到太空中心透過國科會這邊積極推動科技外交跟重要的科技強國還有簽署部會層級科研合作協定跟協議那我們看到2010到2022平均每一年我們台灣台灣自己的資源光光是台灣送出去的資料平均有14件災害事件提供那我們來看下一頁"},{"start":5067.957,"end":5090.496,"text":"台灣過去一整年我們台灣自己就協助了13個國家22場災害那我們都知道其實這樣的天災都沒有人希望發生可是一旦發生基於人道價值的關懷彼此互相提供資料互相協助這非常非常重要所以後續這邊我們是不是可以持續要求國科會跟太空中心這邊持續在這個計畫當中發揮角色那我相信立法院一定也會支持相關的預算"},{"start":5093.639,"end":5116.779,"text":"說完了太空我們來看一下海洋這一次地震大家都知道是921之後最大規模地震可是因為它的震央在近海所以對於整個地質環境的掌握其實沒有辦法像25年前的921一樣可以從地面上有非常非常多的資料跟觀察那我在今年年初日本的能登半島地震不知道副主委你知道這個新聞跟消息"},{"start":5120.989,"end":5138.859,"text":"其實我們台灣自己也有提供衛星畫面給日本跟副主委這邊說明一下那日本在上個月就派遣了他們自己的海洋研究機構的研究船進行相關的斷層探勘瞭解地震的成因還有地質的細節然後再進一步的把這個資料提供給調查委員會做參考為什麼要講這件事情呢我們來看下一張"},{"start":5143.021,"end":5160.873,"text":"因為我剛說台灣這一次的地震正要是在台灣的近海那其實國科會的國家實驗研究院目前我們知道有國家地震工程中心還有台灣海洋研究中心那我想請問一下我們有沒有機會在這一次的地震透過派研究船進行地震探勘調查的計畫"},{"start":5163.033,"end":5189.577,"text":"我想主要的如果是能夠在布局在海底的地震偵測其實這是非常重要那目前我們這些相當有限我們承認所以我想委員這個建議非常重要如果說我們能夠把兩邊聯合在一起因為海洋研究中心跟地震部分能夠再合作然後我們透過海洋科技的這個能量才能夠把地震以整個步道這整個重要的關鍵的部分但是因為整個東岸深海"},{"start":5190.357,"end":5196.062,"text":"所以這個部分也有技術上的困難但我們會積極來思考這方面的問題那如果是這樣聽到副主委這麼正向的回應其實我們有聽到來自地科學界的學者的建議有沒有機會在這一次啟動這個相關的研究跟調查經費那我們是不是可以抓一個半年的時間請你們這邊做出相關的盤點"},{"start":5211.493,"end":5211.853,"text":"臺灣的產業發展與國人日常生活"},{"start":5227.901,"end":5240.828,"text":"有沒有機會在半年內啟動相關的研究?半年內不能因為半年內我不見得在但是一個月內我們會啟動第一次的諮詢會議好沒問題一個月內啟動相關的諮詢專家會議我們要把這個問題至少有一個framework至少有一個架構那一個月應該因為我還在還可以繼續那把這個東西會傳遞下去這資訊"},{"start":5249.753,"end":5275.792,"text":"太好了謝謝這個非常重要謝謝副主委的肯定好那我們接下來再回到太空我們來看一下在今天的報告裡面我們看到國科會有提到八大前瞻科技其中太空是一個非常重要你們提到的領域可是我們有發現在去年7月的時候國科會主委就有說太空三期計畫要修正要延長並且預計在去年年底送件可是我們到目前為止都沒有看到相關的資料跟下文"},{"start":5276.172,"end":5299.362,"text":"好下一張我們來看一下你們當時提出來的修正呢計畫重點我就不再贅述了可是你們提到一個非常重要的事情通訊韌性的部分那我覺得這一次在地震當中大家應該更可以感受通訊韌性的重要性那目前我們想知道聽說計畫已經是從國科會送已經是送到國科會然後等著要送到行政院目前我們知道版本是這樣是嗎"},{"start":5301.09,"end":5324.913,"text":"目前按照每年的科技計劃的審議目前是這樣那現在單一計劃本身應該是五六就應該要送進來了我們還在審議的過程我們跟你們要資料結果你們給我們的回應是說競速完備修正內容所以到底是遇到了什麼困難要不要在這邊說明一下讓大家更知道關心相關進度的委員們目前的修正計劃是到哪裡了"},{"start":5325.814,"end":5341.574,"text":"具體修正目前進度跟委員報告目前來講話因為他有相關的一些細節的內容像項目等等這些還需要討論所以還在這個內部的還在研議當中但是會儘速的提供"},{"start":5341.974,"end":5366.468,"text":"那如果按照剛剛副主委您說的未來520之後你也不知道你在不在嘛但是你剛剛說提到一個月內那我們機會在這個修正案的部分有沒有機會在一個月內完成國科會的內部程序然後在520以前提供給行政院作為後續審查讓接下來行政團隊可以無縫接軌有機會嗎一個月內我們內部的內部的調整我先確定他可不可以好一個月內調整"},{"start":5367.469,"end":5371.993,"text":"所以您覺得大概還要多久?因為我想也不會只有我們辦公室關心這個進度嗎?"},{"start":5390.263,"end":5415.14,"text":"我親自開會一個月內我們開看能夠推到怎麼樣因為我們必須要了解因為其他課還有牽扯到各個部會開放計劃絕對不是國科會的問題但是因為您說您會主責來召開開一個比較密集的會議去了解大概現在還有哪些技術上的項目是卡住但原則這個大方向應該大家都很有共識的這個部分應該是比較沒有問題的好那這個部分就拜託你們持續進行細節的部分我們事事就麻煩一下"},{"start":5415.68,"end":5420.383,"text":"我們承認他確實有跨部會的困難但是我們還是希望看到進度是趕快往前推進的跨部會沒有困難但需要一點時間所以跨部會的溝通目前沒有困難但是大家在工作細項的討論分工上是有困難的他還需要帶回去做各個部會本身的討論如果有這麼多實際的困難但是您說你一個月內會先召開相關的會議然後來看一下大家目前進度到底哪些盤點一下到底哪些問題然後我們把它列出來"},{"start":5441.477,"end":5446.681,"text":"我們辦公室會再跟你們要相關資料跟報告好,謝謝,謝謝副主委,謝謝主席,謝謝謝謝,謝謝陳培韻委員林副主席請那我們再來請葛盧軍委員質詢"},{"start":5469.24,"end":5472.489,"text":"謝謝主席有請國科會林秉聰副主委備詢好有請林副主委"},{"start":5479.164,"end":5501.548,"text":"委員長早安早副主委今天的專題報告的題目非常棒國家科技發展策略與布局是一個非常前瞻從國家的高度來談整體科技發展大方向的重要題目但是我真的忍不住要講薄薄的十四頁都是交代過去"},{"start":5503.064,"end":5523.581,"text":"甚至沒有現在跟未來我們都翻過了105年講到112年都沒有在講未來請問我們國家科技發展的策略到底是什麼布局到底是什麼這到底是專題報告還是回顧想請教一下副主委最簡單的一題今年是民國幾年"},{"start":5525.166,"end":5548.639,"text":"我可以回去看一下這裡面到底有多少東西在提113年以後的東西啦報告裡面提到了很多項目人工智慧、太空資安都很棒但是裡面都是過去的新聞內容還有你們過去已經決定的東西現在全世界正在關注的議題Robotaxi8月可能要發布智慧機器人Robot LearningHumanoid"},{"start":5550.739,"end":5566.744,"text":"這個區塊鏈、腦機介面、基因編輯等等在這份報告裡面可以說是資質未提、複資缺乳啦我可不可以問為什麼?在哪裡有嗎?這份裡面有沒有?我想所有的包括很多大型的計畫或者包括這個八大的這個技術平台事實上都是放遠2035的"},{"start":5569.185,"end":5589.185,"text":"請副主委回去翻一下專題報告裡面到底有多少在講未來我可以直接給各位答案在第13頁第三部分三之一的第二段260個字在講今年以後的未來"},{"start":5592.128,"end":5610.621,"text":"我想這是事實我們就不多說了但是昨天賴準副總統發表的內閣名單說要秉持行動創新active innovative的精神組成這樣的內閣但是不只沒有未來AI還只有少少一面又都在回顧過去我們到底AI的中長期戰略到底是什麼"},{"start":5611.101,"end":5611.461,"text":"吳主委今天沒有親自與會備選他請假參加院會"},{"start":5638.735,"end":5662.305,"text":"我們已經查過了今天院會的主題全部都是花蓮的災後的問題根本就跟國會沒有關係沒有關係那我想今天您來這裡會不會其實透露了一個訊息會不會副主委可能未來非常有可能接任國會主委是不是人選我們是不是要先提前恭賀您您即將要高升升任科技政委兼國會主委"},{"start":5662.985,"end":5664.346,"text":"您過去最滿意的政策成績是什麼?"},{"start":5676.64,"end":5700.609,"text":"我想最重要的我們是把很多不同領域跟跨部會的部分重要的科技跟面向串聯在一起也就是說我們剛剛在口頭報告了你經濟面跟社會面好 待會你們回去看一下重播啦看看您這樣的回答是不是滿意沒有關係我想無論如何啦您身為這個副主委不管未來高深續任希望你們都可以好好的準備交接清單讓接下來的同僚"},{"start":5703.75,"end":5712.215,"text":"這個可以持續的來前進那無論520之後誰來領導國科會本席都希望務必兌現當初主委曾經承諾的盡快看到AI基本法的草案送到立院本席也要強調期待AI基本法當中應該要涵蓋AI國際情勢的瞭解AI產業的現況調查的規範這是國科會做得很棒所以我們真的在此予以鼓勵2022年台灣AI國力調查大概很多人不知道這個東西"},{"start":5732.165,"end":5750.174,"text":"但現在2024年我們新的革規上來了希望能夠趕快的來做新的版本持續都要推出甚至放到我們的AI基本法的規劃當中每年應該要持續更新幫助產官學員界的快速的掌握AI脈動接下來想了解一下副主委對於AI晶片產業的藍圖根據這個國會資料的顯示"},{"start":5754.696,"end":5763.322,"text":"因應生成式AI的快速發展我們有金創計畫還有這個所謂的AI行動2.0的計畫這兩者可以說相輔相成但是我們其實還是想要問說這兩個計畫這樣子這個蘋果Apple Pen這樣合在一起到底我們是要重軟還是重硬還是軟硬兼施到底我們要重大還是重小重新創還是大型產業還是我們大小都要可不可以簡要的回答一下"},{"start":5782.682,"end":5799.887,"text":"2023年到2026年的台灣AI行動計畫是一個跨部會的綱領計畫它事實上是希望以既有的AI技術要落地那晶片驅動台灣產業創新計畫裡面的AI的部分是很重要針對現在生成式AI新的硬體跟軟體的發展"},{"start":5801.027,"end":5816.502,"text":"所以軟硬堅持?軟硬堅持?那大型還是小型?我們是要補助新創還是補助大型?高尖?新創是對於這個利用生成式AI﹐跟他的新型的技術的生創計畫﹐我們會極力支持應該大小都要?對,如果沒有計畫當然就很難有"},{"start":5819.585,"end":5825.151,"text":"其中有一部分的經費發到經濟部來做這個金創計畫補助業者創新研發看起來是大小兼施但是做法我們覺得有一點疑義首先其中8億要補助新創不知道副主委知不知道我們現在國際的趨勢補助新創不是純補助應該是投資這裡面只是純補助又沒有拿股份"},{"start":5840.848,"end":5850.201,"text":"如果我要投資或是補助大型公間業者為主﹑前瞻技術研發突破﹑晶片IC設計,12億台幣是杯水車薪,這是什麼規模?"},{"start":5857.791,"end":5864.317,"text":"伊隆馬斯克並購推特的時候這家公司他花了440億美金相當於1.4兆台幣12億台幣的預算3000萬美金是到底可以補助什麼樣的大型IC設計產業高階技術這個我想"},{"start":5875.768,"end":5900.462,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法好好地去做調整新創業者也沒有扶植好大型公間業者可能又看不上如果真的要補助新創我們就多一點如果要補助這個甚至拿股份如果要補助大型的我們也要足夠的資源否則的話可能兩頭都空了現在真的看起來很多機制在促進但是相關的各類資源真的是非常的混亂我們來看一下"},{"start":5901.883,"end":5921.897,"text":"雖然我們有在經濟部中小企業署有相關窗口看到有些整理,包含這一本也有一些整理,但是我這邊來朗讀一下,跟AI有關的政府小組或中心,國家智慧推動小組,國家AI推動小組,大家都可以注意,台灣AI卓越中心,"},{"start":5922.777,"end":5933.486,"text":"中研院還有人工智慧創新應用專題中心．國科會補助設立AI創新研究中心．領航企業研發深耕計畫大AI Plus．IC設計工庭補助計畫．驅動國內．"},{"start":5940.791,"end":5965.121,"text":"IC設計業者發展補助計畫DigitalPlus數位創新補助智慧國家方案DG2.0AI領黃推動計畫二代產業AI落地概念驗證補助AI應用服務化驗證補助AI應用我真的已經有點累了但真的不好意思琳瑯滿目小組中心計畫我相信都是善意但是很可能卻成為惡意的迷宮讓產業界的眼花撩亂前途茫茫"},{"start":5969.483,"end":5989.754,"text":"我們既然這麼關注又有這麼多的資源我們能不能協助產業、產官學把相關的資訊、單位、補助、投資做一個整合建立類似Yellow Page或者是Build in Taiwan、AI at Taiwan這樣的一個創業整合或者資源展現的一站式服務我們這邊給你一個idea"},{"start":5991.835,"end":6009.812,"text":"AI at Taiwan還可以順便呼應一下新內閣幫賴總統宣傳解釋我們這裡講的AI是Artificial Intelligence跟我們昨天發布的Active and Innovative有一點不一樣一起放在這裡有多國語言讓全世界知道我們台灣兩個AI都很重視這不是很好嗎"},{"start":6013.035,"end":6013.255,"text":"可不可以兩週之內研議?"},{"start":6035.771,"end":6039.472,"text":"最後時間有限我們要問的是採購的計畫這個高速運算主機的建制我們過去買了9台主機72片的H100再來要買16這個擴充到16P Flops接下來我們到底要怎麼做我們現在台德有7B有13B是沒有公開的"},{"start":6060.638,"end":6075.498,"text":"但是呢昨天法國的新創公司Mistral公布的是176B開源給大家用的我們接下來到底是還要買H100嗎買也沒有關係但是現在已經有B100 B200甚至GB200 Super Chip"},{"start":6077.941,"end":6078.061,"text":"我們細節可以請"},{"start":6106.606,"end":6123.345,"text":"113年目前目前規劃您剛剛提的沒有錯第一期我們會建就是今年會建16個Peta Flop但是從114開始我們會建100到120個Peta Flop的新機器那這裡面可能包括的都是有可能的新的機器"},{"start":6124.706,"end":6151.488,"text":"謝謝我們比較一下我們72片接下來就算買個100片500片都遠遠不足啦人家是買個這多少三萬兩千塊然後呢這是什麼Meta是35萬顆那我們當然不能跟這些企業去比但我們不能差太多啦同時有新的東西一直出來我們不能等到我們發現要買了再來匡列預算最後去買的時候我們剩下來是菜尾"},{"start":6151.988,"end":6152.048,"text":"主席"},{"start":6182.128,"end":6201.193,"text":"麻煩國歌會的同仁也協助注意一下本席真的只是要提醒國歌會我們要及早部署跟規劃才有機會盡快採購到最新的設備因為等到我們意識到要買的時候很可能已經排隊都排兩年了接著又出新的C100 C200最後我想如何在先進國家和國際企業的激烈競爭之下"},{"start":6202.353,"end":6202.553,"text":"謝謝副主委謝謝主席"},{"start":6233.6,"end":6233.9,"text":"郭婉嫻議員"},{"start":6253.12,"end":6281.24,"text":"委員早安早安副主委不曉得您知不知道現在在去年年底有一個新聞就有特別提到多所的鼎大的碩博班他們註冊率幾乎是零那也就是說不曉得是少子化的關係還是因為什麼樣的關係其實我們的碩博班目前為止很多人其實是註冊率是掛零的"},{"start":6282.18,"end":6300.968,"text":"這您知道嗎?我看過報告那當然在這邊其實我還是要給這個國科會一個掌聲鼓勵因為其實我們有特別針對所謂的這個博士獎學金的一個方案對不對那在去年之前其實我們原本從這個名額是300位"},{"start":6304.857,"end":6316.221,"text":"今年有特別提高到1000名當然其中的600名額是由其他的大專院校這邊來領選我們自己國科會這邊領選是400位"},{"start":6320.262,"end":6348.754,"text":"好 那問題是這個從108年試辦到今年其實有很多的博士他們還沒有從學校畢業那為什麼就在今年突然突增了就是這麼多的名額這個是我比較好奇也是比較有疑慮的一些地方就是說我們這1000名突然之間在今年有增加了這麼多"},{"start":6350.114,"end":6367.647,"text":"的名額這個是什麼樣的一個構想我想原來300名分配到各個學校還是生多米少就是說其實還是非常非常的有限所以我們增加以在budget可以的範圍之內增加到1000名那另外一個當然就是一個大環境"},{"start":6368.007,"end":6368.768,"text":"所以我們要跟其他的產業界搶人"},{"start":6385.512,"end":6405.212,"text":"至少要努力讓一些願意做研究的時候他不要做得太辛苦是我們不敢講說他的薪水可以比較但是至少讓他在這邊生活無虞可是目前我們其實因為這些博士班其實他們都還沒有從博士班畢業喔那怎麼增加突然之間其實增加人數的部分其實已經增加了三倍"},{"start":6405.972,"end":6434.53,"text":"目前我們看到其實碩士班跟博士班的申請總人數事實上已經在下降雖然還沒有畢業但新進的我們就可以預看到這個部分的事實上是變化相當大尤其是在像STEM的這個範圍內本身它已經有一個很明顯的趨勢當然也包含少子化的問題也是其中原因我想眾多原因加在一起我們必須要更要用比較強有力的機制去支持這些做博士研究的"},{"start":6434.65,"end":6461.074,"text":"我們有提供比業界更好的條件嗎?目前來講,如果經費是無限的,我們當然是希望無限增加經費怎麼可能會無限?對,不可能無限所以我們現在只是從原來事實上提到到4萬塊那4萬塊至少維持一個生活,基本的生活這個部分讓老師或者是學生以前的話,大部分博士班學生是靠老師來支持嘛尤其是在一個實驗室裡面那我們的總預算本身也有限"},{"start":6461.454,"end":6485.837,"text":"所以我們就直接針對博士班你們預期這1000名今年會招得滿嗎?我們目前已經招滿,而且事實上有相當多人來申請好,那我們就來看一下我們的這些資源的比例400名的部分已經滿,那因為那個學校的部分還在學校但目前來申請還很踴躍而且跟委員報告我們還去開拓就是希望能國外的來其實有一部分事實上有相當多國外的也來申請"},{"start":6486.998,"end":6513.047,"text":"我們來看一下我們的這個配置這個比例上我們可以看到比方說是112年的時候其實國立台灣大學我們這邊是58名那另外在113年就是今年其實我們國立的台灣大學是113位那其他的學校的部分我們發現這個比例上是不是會有一些"},{"start":6514.304,"end":6515.545,"text":"支援分配布局的一些問題"},{"start":6536.622,"end":6565.517,"text":"既然講到我們國科會的一些計畫我們就再來往下看喔當然我們看到其實我們為了要招募這些人才其實我們是為了儲備核心戰略產業人才對吧是沒錯好那既然是六大核心產業的人才我們就來看這六大核心戰略大部分都是跟資訊有關資安有關國防戰略還有我們的一些綠能跟再生資源等等對不對"},{"start":6566.857,"end":6587.874,"text":"這個是我們的六大核心戰略主要是針對產業這次我們的分配是有八大的技術平台因為國科未要知足的博士班他是要做研究研究部分他必須要有一個研究的重點所以這個重點其實是剛剛我在報告的時候或是我們專題報告裡面是八大技術平台所以你們又拉出了另外一個是八大"},{"start":6588.374,"end":6593.718,"text":"我比較好奇的是我們所入選的這些人他們來自科系我們來看一下我們看到有哲學系另外還有美術系另外還有中文系"},{"start":6611.892,"end":6640.16,"text":"那這個部分他們是在這個你們所謂的八大的這樣子的一個計畫當中是符合哪一項我想國科會的審查跟學校會有很大的不一樣我們是針對他未來要讀或者是他現在做的題目跟他的研究所以他必須要寫一個小的research的一個proposal那我們來看下一頁就是說在這個所謂的博士生他們的一個獎助學金的領域的分布我個人是覺得"},{"start":6641.62,"end":6641.941,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6658.713,"end":6680.538,"text":"我個人因為可能我外行所以其實我真的會覺得有一點疑慮那他們的入選人數跟通過率是50%那資安這麼的重要為什麼他的人數只有3跟委員報告其實問這個問題是非常重要的其實資安部分其實我們另外有其他的計畫專案的計畫去對他師資跟學生的支持"},{"start":6683.499,"end":6685.52,"text":"所以你們是不是應該要把平均式的比方說我每一個人補助他4萬可是我在資安人員我是應該要提高"},{"start":6704.25,"end":6722.541,"text":"這個未來我們也會有很強的理由去做一些分布那我想治安這個部分省3只有30%這個部分我想我們可以去理解然後還是因為我們都是專家省就是專家的審查那人文社會我這裡要強調人文社會非常重要"},{"start":6722.901,"end":6724.182,"text":"我們全盤去理解看其他計畫的配合"},{"start":6747.318,"end":6776.288,"text":"因為我們再往下一張看我們看到我們的這是你們的這個政策的一個研究光是在政策的議題上面其實就沒有出現人文社會的議題喔所以我就不知道您剛才說的這個專業的在DCET本身裡面的主要研究員都是社會人文的我想目前這DCET是我們最近社會剛成立的科技民主跟社會研究中心嘛它的組成本身那它是用人文的觀點去看現在"},{"start":6777.288,"end":6802.738,"text":"新興的產業本身產生的問題所以我們要把人文社會這個DNA滲透到其他的科技裡面去比如說包含我們的應用面我們事實上在中端的應用面如果沒有人文社會去支持的話那我們中端永遠就做一個供應鏈本身的做元件而已那在前端的部分尤其是AI它牽扯到AI的倫理跟信號部分那這個在在都需要法律的人文的本身去支持這個我懂"},{"start":6803.298,"end":6819.984,"text":"對 所以我們現在這裡的題目也許看到是AI但是AI它本身就是一個人文問題跟社會問題就我剛剛所提的我覺得在我們人才的補助或者講助學金我覺得這個部分是不是應該要依照我們的現狀可以來做一些修正跟調整我覺得你們那補的1000名才會有意義啦"},{"start":6824.386,"end":6824.746,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6843.681,"end":6871.863,"text":"但是你們是1月11日才正式的公佈那這個部分其實真的也有點晚囉對,我們希望那個時候其實我們是希望盡快早點開始那明年,我們今年本身我們會檢討每一年我們都會希望能夠有一定程度的調整好,謝謝主委謝謝,謝謝副主委,謝謝主席謝謝,謝謝郭育晴委員林副勤委那我們接下來請葉元芝委員"},{"start":6884.11,"end":6886.634,"text":"副主委為什麼主委沒來?"},{"start":6895.472,"end":6915.344,"text":"他今天請假去行政院院會我發現好像我們這一屆的委員團不被民進黨政府重視我每次我看到像國防部長阿或是其他衛生部長他們都自己出席但我們這個委員會每次都是教育部長也沒看到人沒來幾次都是次長國科會又派副主委"},{"start":6916.452,"end":6933.903,"text":"那是不是我們教委會的委員比較被民進黨看不起我不知道啦應該不是這樣子不是不是這樣為什麼主委不來主委去行政院會開會我們就很閒就對了他就很忙我們就很閒不是啦副主委當然不為難你啦但是我們還是要表示一下我們的態度啦"},{"start":6936.044,"end":6960.6,"text":"我看到這個報告 哇 這個報告非常的重要他整個難夸了我們國家科技發展的各大戰略甚至於連地緣政治底下我們科技發展的硬硬方略都有那最近地緣政治很熱門啊很熱門 像昨天有馬錫二會然後現在還有美日峰會 美日非峰會然後地緣政治這麼熱鬧的情況之下 請教一下"},{"start":6962.162,"end":6973.757,"text":"我們副主委我們現在國科會說你們要在地緣政治情況發展我們的科技戰略是什麼?最後你們報告裡面有提到的但是因為你們報告寫得太抽象了具體來說你們到底做法是什麼?"},{"start":6974.865,"end":6979.466,"text":"台灣必須找到一個台灣在關鍵技術本身的發展 不會移出去半導體元件需要你講嗎不用你講我也知道我先講的是你國科會你們對於這個地方的價值跟貢獻是什麼"},{"start":6997.765,"end":7014.13,"text":"我直接回答剛剛那個委員的第一個問題好了那我們如何去選擇重要的技術以前的話就就生產面來講越生產很大的技術就很重要但現在未來我們要看到一個新的技術進來比如說AIAI的技術它需要跟硬體本身的結合你不要浪費我時間你現在一轉眼又過了4分鐘了"},{"start":7018.512,"end":7033.089,"text":"你不要浪費我的時間我現在講的是 這個報告都有寫我現在問你具體來講 地緣政治底下你對於科技產業因應是什麼嘛具體來講 因為這是寫在你報告裡面的啊那昨天馬錫鶴會跟今天的每日高峰會 國科會做了什麼相關的事情"},{"start":7034.751,"end":7062.606,"text":"我還是以半導體為例是吧半導體本來就是不用你們講我們也知道啊半導體的策略也會做一定程度的改變什麼啊比如說生產鏈的部分在某些核心技術的部分我們要掌控在台灣這個部分事實上什麼核心技術核心技術比如說製程技術14奈米這個也不用你講好不好這個我看新聞都有我現在就問說你們到底做什麼嘛你是答不出來是不是不是就具體把這個那我這樣問啦昨天"},{"start":7063.366,"end":7083.898,"text":"這兩天金融時報說我們很多大型的製造商都考慮在海外設第二總部這是你知道嗎?不知道喔?包括有光寶科加世達都考慮到外面設第二總部現在國內大型製造商因為你管科學園區嘛這位大型製造商說要到海外設總部的意願怎麼樣?這個目前"},{"start":7087.568,"end":7091.73,"text":"主席可不可以暫停一下?就是你可不可以請他們針對我的問題回答?我問到現在都沒有一個針對我的問題回答主委不來然後下面就是來混時間的"},{"start":7115.928,"end":7134.35,"text":"現在問題很具體 《金融時報》報導現在大型製造商 像加斯達 光寶科都已經考慮到海外去設第二總部就是因為地緣政治的影響嘛我現在問你說 你們掌管高科技同樣有地緣政治的影響 也很多國際的研發中心有研發中心事實上也到台灣"},{"start":7135.291,"end":7151.178,"text":"這非常重要我們要看雙向我現在問的是你們掌握的狀況雙向也就是製造業本身的出去不好意思主席先暫停一下好不好你跟他講一下雖然我們不同黨但是這樣子國會的質詢有意義嗎沒有就請副主委針對委員的問題回答"},{"start":7155.72,"end":7156.681,"text":"副主委我真的不想浪費時間了"},{"start":7182.14,"end":7204.929,"text":"我們就給大家看你們國科會的態度啦回答問題就是這樣啦反正我就來啦你隨便問我我隨便答時間混完我就回去就是這種態度啦沒關係大家都看在眼裡啦我現在請教你啦3月18號的時候行政院前應該現在還是啦副院長鄭文燦在嘉義縣政府宣布台積電要在嘉義科學園區建兩座先進封裝廠"},{"start":7206.523,"end":7215.139,"text":"這是你知道嗎?科學園區你們管的吧?所以台積電要來嗎?會來喔?但是我去看了去年12月"},{"start":7216.639,"end":7239.71,"text":"有關於嘉義園區的環評環評裡面他只有提到說有針對精準健康、智慧載具、智慧農業跟其他新興科技四大產業做環評那其中有包括台積電嗎?有包括晶圓業嗎?跟委員報告在智慧載具裡面對於半導體是允許的但是對於半導體裡面做製造的部分是有限制的製造的部分是晶圓製造"},{"start":7240.75,"end":7252.173,"text":"對,所以有沒有針對晶圓做環評?晶圓的部分本來在加科就不行,但是先進封裝的部分是可以的。所以是只有,所以它沒有要,它是要設先進封裝廠是不是?"},{"start":7252.173,"end":7266.016,"text":"是的,是的。那是包括在哪一個裡面?其他新興?目前是在智慧載具以及其他新興科技裡面,包含相關的封裝產業可以在這裡面容納。所以只有封裝產業,所以確定它要過來?是是,它已經在3月起租了。"},{"start":7266.936,"end":7281.151,"text":"專業提出提出申請那大概什麼時候會進來這個可能要看廠商目前在做相關的準備工作要看他宣布所以封裝的部分就比較不受到一些地形的影響比如說排水系統"},{"start":7282.426,"end":7304.222,"text":"所有的產業都會說到排水、水電、風水、風電那問題是有沒有特別針對這個部分去做環評有沒有這個部分都有環評的規範那如果有涉及到需要調整的話都會送環差的分析所以你的意思就是說會進來沒錯然後時間的話要看他提出來的是要看廠商宣布的時間那現在是說宣布了然後就看他提出還是你們很積極的招商"},{"start":7305.003,"end":7315.061,"text":"我們已經核准他進駐了核准他進駐對 已經核准他進駐了那就你的了解 因為臺積電要不要進駐一直是大家的一個政績老師搶先宣布那我不曉得說國會會在這地方記憶度怎麼樣"},{"start":7317.265,"end":7317.365,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7335.996,"end":7361.851,"text":"國會會議下面有一個災害防救科技中心的有負責災防告緊細胞廣播系統對吧是沒錯那我這邊有兩個案例我想問一下為什麼這都沒有通告一個是之前在網路上有一個照片說是那個台版台版的快車手就這張照片有沒有他就是發生的癱瘓所以他這樣衝出來那請問一下像這種正常情況之下國會會認為說這應該要發細胞簡訊嗎"},{"start":7364.465,"end":7385.346,"text":"我想這個由栽培中心這邊來回答有沒有 需要嗎委員好 這個我想他這個崩塌的時候會有主責單位阿他發這個國家警報的這個應該要發對不對 應該要發可是 你是主任 沒有阿 沒發阿我想在現地 就是花蓮地區阿沒有 就沒有嘛 因為我們去看你的網站系統就沒有發阿就沒有針對這個發阿就0阿 發的簡訊是0阿"},{"start":7387.688,"end":7414.981,"text":"我想是由主責單位阿他透過這個細胞的這個平台然後發出來他自己的細胞平台喔不不不就是國家的細胞平台就這沒就我們看的系統就沒有嘛是是就沒有嘛你認為要發可是他沒有發因為系統上就沒有呈現出來嘛是這個這個他分他的手臺所以是不是國會會你應該要跟相關的主責單位去講嘛是是是就不然我們國會會建置這個系統然後大家都不使用然後使用的很奇怪什麼大陸發射衛星然後就就發"},{"start":7416.226,"end":7422.907,"text":"然後這種通他要不是這個台版房地鎖啊開特別快不然的話可能有危險啊啊這個不發"},{"start":7424.744,"end":7452.221,"text":"哇 這個發的這個開盤不是 你要跟他們講啦好不好我覺得國會不是說把系統建制起來之後就就隨便你們用了你是主責單位你要去教育訓練或是說怎麼使用這個是你們的責任嘛是 不吧 這中央一邊都已經他都會每一次檢討所以這個細胞細胞檢訊這個事情大家詬病很多啦齁但是真的不是說只有在地震那一天大家詬病而是後續的很多狀況一樣沒有改進啊對 像我現在秀出來剛秀那個照片也不是最近的事也不是上禮拜三是之後的事情啊"},{"start":7453.201,"end":7473.502,"text":"並沒有針對這個東西做個檢討吧所以國會會是不是可以召集一個會議．跟各單位講說這個系統建制的請大家一定要妥善運用該發的時候發 不該發不要發國會會是不是可以做這個事可以可以可以然後另外還有一個很離譜的4月9號苗栗大埔附近也收到一個簡訊就是我現在投影片上面秀出來的"},{"start":7477.277,"end":7496.807,"text":"主任請教一下可以幫大家翻譯一下什麼意思我怕國人不是每一個人都會英文我想我們在發布這個是由組織單位發布的時候他除了中文發布以外他英文他也會放對但是他只有英文是那所以是在發給外國人看還是怎樣我想他是這個"},{"start":7502.679,"end":7528.002,"text":"也就是水庫啊 洩洪的部分啊對啦 你翻譯大家都懂啦可是你覺得大家都看得懂英文嗎是不是我們以中文為主我們的簡訊以中文為主可不可以所以你看 隨便舉兩個就知道這個簡訊問題這麼多所以可不可以請國科會 招幾個會議針對這個訊息發放的一些原則好不好 訂出來不要亂七八糟 真的亂七八糟啦 好不好"},{"start":7529.865,"end":7545.525,"text":"謝謝我們謝謝委員這個召委可不可以真的因為我為了後面的委員著想啦他們這樣答詢真正被大家時間了你先跟他講一下好不好你看我時間莫名其妙就到了前面就跟我扯一些我在新聞上都看得到的東西我時間就到了"},{"start":7547.435,"end":7548.075,"text":"還有10分鐘,然後再問一次"},{"start":7574.059,"end":7575.28,"text":"委員可以...委員可以...我絕對不是用半導體來做回答然後上一次上一次我們國科會"},{"start":7604.013,"end":7604.313,"text":"4月10日及11日二天一次會議"},{"start":7627.127,"end":7640.695,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉委員施委員那你的標準真的很低欸我再強調一次我們並不是針對半導體來做回答我們是說半導體很重要它改變了什麼改變什麼是很重要那我就要說明它改變了什麼對不對"},{"start":7642.116,"end":7664.827,"text":"你講嘛,我問你國會做了什麼嘛,我是問你國會做了什麼,你一直跟我扯說半導體很重要然後我問你說你國會有沒有掌握說這個半導體製造業有沒有要到海外去設立的總部,你跟我講說我們也招了很多資金進來,這有回答問題嗎?兩個是相關的,兩個是相關的你可不可以跟他溝通一下,他還說兩個相關,那你要...林副主委請回座,時間到了"},{"start":7678.152,"end":7678.773,"text":"陳秀芭委員質詢"},{"start":7697.219,"end":7716.231,"text":"副主委早今天副主委您這個專報是國家科技發展策略與布局那您在報告的時候也四平八穩的內容也是很豐富但是美中不足的是針對精創台灣方案呢你們只有在第6頁人工智慧中短短幾個字提到而未推動各產業導入深層式AI"},{"start":7719.053,"end":7729.458,"text":"113年起將結合進創台灣方案的布局．結合生存式AI加晶片．帶動產業創新．進行全面性的規劃跟推動就這麼簡單為什麼我想請教為什麼說 進創台灣方案這個這麼重大的計畫為什麼你這麼簡審這麼簡略我想也許可以請這邊來回答就是說我們盡量在這邊再補充說明"},{"start":7743.202,"end":7761.255,"text":"謝謝委員我想可能因為篇幅的關係因為國會做了太多的東西那金創台灣其實就是十年第一年三千億碼第一年是一百二十億那你四支主軸的計畫你們的報告沒有限制字數吧為什麼說篇幅的關係沒有辦法放進去這個我不太能接受來"},{"start":7762.276,"end":7769.239,"text":"今年我們進創台灣的這個進創台灣方案編列120億那佔今年科技預算的7.6%那以10年300億平均每年以10年3000億元平均每年300億明年的這個規劃的預算大概1800億來算這個基礎來算是高達佔比是16.7喔那"},{"start":7783.985,"end":7788.188,"text":"當然這個相對於說之前我們一些比較沒有那麼宏觀整合科技產業這個政策來相比較這次推出了這個金創台灣方案的這個政策焦點比較集中那投入的時間跟力道也比較充足是值得讚許的但是既然我們這個可以這樣子做我們也有這樣子規劃為什麼你們不要明白的把它再說的明白一點為什麼要這麼簡略我的問題是這樣"},{"start":7810.498,"end":7836.536,"text":"我想這個是也許我們的疏忽我們應該是更具體的更細節的本身來跟委員報告這個是我們應該改進那如果未來或者是我們會後是不是可以提供比較完整的報告就麻煩您了對對對這個我們可以立刻提供其實是有非常細緻的這個謝謝副主委我也要求說這個一定要落實執行那你說要會後提供我資料就請在提供委員辦公室"},{"start":7837.496,"end":7864.835,"text":"生產是AI是一個急需投入很大資源的這樣子的一個計畫那高度的整合上下由新興領域所以即使就是說要是既存有規模的系統公司或是IC設計公司要投入這樣的快速的發展領域呢政策的意向跟一定要輔佐以配合的作為所以這個部分呢你們需要提供的你們需要做的部分你們自己也應該知道說在裡面投入的需要所需要的做的投入"},{"start":7865.455,"end":7894.217,"text":"那這個部分我要再請教目前已經揭露的政策宣告裡面看不到說建立上下游協助平台以及是否協助建立國際統一標準這個做法這些必要的關鍵作為為什麼你們也沒有揭露這樣的訊息因為深圳市AI其實也是才新出來沒有多久那我們就趕快組織資源那包含之前的那個台德的那個model就建立自己的trustworthy model然後今年也"},{"start":7894.857,"end":7907.993,"text":"一一三開始也就有一個大概一億元的這個深層式AI百工百業導入深層式AI的部分那包括一些這個人才的培育那產業應用的擴散那當然就是開發建AI的平台那這個其實都正在走不過因為計畫才剛開始"},{"start":7914.981,"end":7919.744,"text":"這個部分你們也有資料可以補充給我嗎?有!那就麻煩了另外我再請教美國國家科學基金會的技術創新與合作夥伴組來拜會我們國科會來交流台美科技新創合作的機會德國的教研部官員跟有德國人工智慧教父之稱的黃斯特也來拜會我們國科會這邊要請教"},{"start":7942.134,"end":7959.223,"text":"臺灣與美國的技術創新與合作夥伴屬的跨領域協作培育創新技術的生態系統以及創新創業資源布局目前有什麼成效?臺灣與德國的AI應用在半導體先進製造以及自駕車的合作進程如何?"},{"start":7963.027,"end":7979.165,"text":"我簡單先說是美國這次NSF這個創新技術署來他事實上也是最近才成立的他也是針對美國是本來基礎科學研究的NSF他事實上是創立了一個希望科學跟創新技術落地這個關係所以這個是他第一次的這次來我們細節可以請我們處長"},{"start":7981.768,"end":7981.988,"text":"內景簡短"},{"start":8011.327,"end":8016.509,"text":"未來在這個過去臺美科技合作架構底下在德國這個部分呢德國部分可能要問德國的部分我想也許我比較綜合性的來回答跟德國因為德國最近其實不只剛剛委員提到的這個單位其實還有很多包括是德斯頓這個部分的州薩克森這些州都有來他們中央跟地方都有來那針對半導體的部分擴大很大"},{"start":8039.179,"end":8039.259,"text":"主席"},{"start":8057.398,"end":8059.96,"text":"除了這個我們科技發展的這個策略國家未來發展的方向之外其實我們現在民眾生活日常AI也已經是無所不在那在這邊我要跟您請教"},{"start":8082.742,"end":8099.563,"text":"生成式AI以我們現在國內對於AI的監管生成式AI除了文字之外現在很多線上的軟體都有提供生成圖片甚至影片這個服務那行政院在去年8月31號的時候有一個擬定的就是國科會擬定的一個使用生成式AI的參考指引"},{"start":8100.564,"end":8104.527,"text":"但是這個指引其實是針對對象是我們行政院以及所屬機關而且主要規範是在生成的文字的部分那副主任您覺得以現在目前現在AI這麼技術這麼發展這麼進步你們所規範的這些內容這樣是足夠的嗎"},{"start":8117.177,"end":8140.684,"text":"目前這個指引當然是第一步就是我們先指引後立法所以立法還是真正的目標那我們主委是在上次是備詢的時候也很清楚的指出來我們希望在年底的時候有一個第一步的這個草案歐盟在上週二在上個禮拜4月2號已經通過AI監管的立法他們建立一個統一的法律的框架來維護不管是隱私反歧視消費者保護等權利"},{"start":8141.684,"end":8148.551,"text":"同時也規範AI開發商必須要有﹐健全的數據管理﹐人工監督機制以及全面的風險評估﹐還有相關的問責制度他們有設立一個AI辦公室﹐來確保AI法規在各地都能夠有一致的執行﹐而且為公民提供投訴及尋求補救的管道"},{"start":8162.725,"end":8189.933,"text":"副主委您剛剛說我們希望在年底呢我們的AI的基本法會有進展那我們是以怎樣的方向會採歐盟的這些來做參考嗎我想歐盟他涵蓋的範圍非常廣從最基本的到包括剛剛講的產業然後提供跟社會的溝通的這個部分都有那我們也會朝這個方向來思考因為歐盟本身他也是經過很長的溝通那提供我們經驗那他可以縮短我們的時間所以這個非常重要副主委"},{"start":8190.413,"end":8209.569,"text":"因為其實AI技術它的運用也越來越快那現在手機包括連手機都有經驗配搭AI科技不管是即時通話的翻譯以圖搜尋還有生成式相片那當AI生成式圖片很容易就可以產生的時候相關的監管就非常的重要有這個必要性"},{"start":8210.269,"end":8215.374,"text":"目前AI假圖片假影片在社群平台上氾濫使民眾經常被誤導或是會誤入這個詐騙的陷阱所以這邊我要建議國科會是不是也要演繹我們能夠在AI基本法裡面加入關於說社群平台或新聞有使用AI式生成的影像的時候應該就像我圖片上面這樣子的標示"},{"start":8233.971,"end":8237.394,"text":"委員報告AI基本法有一個框架式的架構,它後面會影響到後面的作用法的一些"},{"start":8253.829,"end":8273.697,"text":"向委員提示也都要放在相關的作用法裡面在細節裡面去訂定應該要規定說有這樣的註記那民眾可以辨識我們在AI基本法通過前的這個過渡也希望說我們格局會跟我們數位部這邊數發部這邊來合作是不是我們可以研議就是"},{"start":8274.517,"end":8296.678,"text":"有沒有可以辨識AI生成影像的軟體或是或是如果說有造成民眾疑慮的AI影像圖片在社群平台流傳的時候呢你們就應該及時的來協助辨識來釐清讓民眾知道說這是假影片假消息不會讓民眾有恐慌這個部分你們可以做嗎我們應該積極跟其他部會一起合作來解決這個問題因為這個是跨部會很多的問題"},{"start":8298.86,"end":8322.835,"text":"其實AI快速的發展我們也非常的擔憂就是說它技術進展的那麼快我們的法規更不跟得上來不來得及來規範它但是呢就是因為怕它的技術進展太快我們來不及規範它我們更不能實也更不能停留我覺得說我們盡速的建立這個框架才是我們對AI發展的一個負責任的態度這個部分希望你們也盡快這個相關的這些規劃都要做"},{"start":8326.877,"end":8327.017,"text":"委員長安"},{"start":8356.973,"end":8374.546,"text":"副主委早安那就是上次我們在討論那個台達這個計畫的時候啊是有講到說我們現在正在開發這個所謂的學研版本啊然後它有非常多的不錯的一些功能喔那但是我也發現這個計畫中有一個很有趣的部分也是我自己長期關注的所謂的母語教育的部分"},{"start":8375.286,"end":8395.721,"text":"那就是說現在國科會是在建構正體中文的版本但同時也有在使用基於13B的學研版本來訓練台語跟客語的GPT那希望未來可以應用在中小學的母語教育來協助推廣母語教育那這個呢因為在訓練這種語言模型的時候最重要的就是資料庫"},{"start":8398.223,"end":8416.624,"text":"我知道目前使用的資料庫就有臺灣隨俠資料集還有臺華臺平行語料庫、客委會語音資料庫、客語能力認證資料庫但是我看了就是說我們公布在網站訓練資料幾乎都是整體中文的版本那這樣子的訓練資料量是足夠的嗎?"},{"start":8418.428,"end":8445.885,"text":"我想這部分當然就是如同委員這個上面寫的這個課與這個部分當然有特殊的這個資料庫我們要繼續爭取那目前我們盡量把已經我們可以授權的部分這個資料庫先放進去而且台德本身的他的這個資料庫很重要他就是希望建立政體本身就反理制本身在這個資料庫本身因為所有的資料庫背後都有社會文化的這個關係嘛所以這個是我們建立台德的部分非常重要的一個部分"},{"start":8446.425,"end":8447.288,"text":"具體來講夠不夠是不是可以簡單回答"},{"start":8451.298,"end":8475.776,"text":"跟委員報告我想您說的沒錯資料的訓練其實資料量就是最重要的那我們第一步開始當然是先衝正體中文那包含那個台語、客語以及這個原住民母語的部分也有都在思考可是的確那個語料從哪裡來像比如說我們就會找客會會說或者是你們是不是有一些那個語言認證那個就是那就會拉進來"},{"start":8476.977,"end":8501.124,"text":"那我們未來還會有更多的訓練資料庫嗎?因為像我像文化部這幾年也產出了非常多的相關的課委會、委員會都有相關的一些教材那這些東西是不是都可以盡快的把它納進來?這個團隊都有很努力在跟各部會的資料的協商但它背後有一些智慧財產、著作權的問題需要解決那這個大概預計是有沒有一個行程的規劃嗎?"},{"start":8502.577,"end":8521.561,"text":"我們現在第一期是4月底7B會先釋出那案子就差不多...我知道,但是我是針對於母語的訓練的部分如果有新的案子的話,我們就會再繼續找母語繼續再加強這方面的訓練新的案子的意思是什麼?是我們現在還沒有規劃?是未來在規劃的意思嗎?有規劃"},{"start":8524.122,"end":8527.404,"text":"在訓練資料中,像是國科會科技大官員網站的資料,我是可以用台語詢問GPT關於科學的知識,然後會獲得台語的回答嗎?"},{"start":8542.233,"end":8559.38,"text":"我們希望有一天可以用不同的語言來回答但目前可能還沒有那這是一個很好的提議那我們可不可以往這個方向好不好對對對就真的用不同語言輸入然後他就可以回答這個應該是這樣好不好我們往這個方向因為你都已經把一些語言認證的東西都放進去了我們往這個方向來努力這張會很有感"},{"start":8561.221,"end":8565.462,"text":"臺語版導入中小學臺語教學應用案例臺南大學將模型出版導入臺語對話生成師AI在人的國小做臺語教學"},{"start":8578.587,"end":8592.202,"text":"目前是希望把機器人的對話能力提升到國中、中高中來幫助學生學台語我們現在相關的像客語或是其他國家語言也是有這個方向讓他可以成為來幫助學生學台語的嗎?"},{"start":8596.417,"end":8619.882,"text":"這個也是有嗎?這個也是有些相關期程已經出來了嗎?相關的規劃目前還沒有我想有很多的應用如果說把這個平台建立起來這個能力建立起來因為我們是建立核心的引擎嘛那輸入重要的資料那這個如果這個起來後對我們就可以跟其他的應用面就可以連結他就可以應用這個資料庫來做剛剛委員提供的這些很多很多的應用面"},{"start":8620.783,"end":8637.706,"text":"我想問一下這台AI機器人有沒有辦法導入更多學校?這台的機器人目前只有一個學校,未來有可能...這應該不是我們國科會的...我覺得這是一個方向我們既然要講母語教學,那只有一台...太少了吧?"},{"start":8639.511,"end":8660.245,"text":"網站上也可以透過,因為這個牽扯到AI的硬體進入學校還要跟教育部連結能不能把這個技術引進到他們常規性的教學工具跟輔助這個當然是一個大方向來講是希望成功建立這個技術以後能夠應用在其他各個部會的面向"},{"start":8660.905,"end":8678.138,"text":"OK 好 那這個部分的話我們就來看看之後我們怎麼跟教育部討論好不好就未來的部分啦那就是說因為我覺得這件事情真的非常重要因為從這幾張圖表我們可以看到就是我們人台灣的這個母語台灣人的母語的能力是迅速的流失"},{"start":8679.058,"end":8701.17,"text":"所以為什麼我會一直不停地強調我們的母語CHAT GPT可不可以有更多的語言來去支持不管是學校裡在教學也好或者是說有沒有可能在生活裡面也可以來協助因為像我自己33歲開始學台語嘛如果當時有這東西其實對我來說也是非常有幫助啦所以我想要知道就是說我們目前啊這個的CHAT GPT這個台德的GPT抱歉"},{"start":8702.21,"end":8716.963,"text":"我們目標是希望可以提升到它的等級,到什麼樣子的等級?因為剛剛是說中高級的國小師資的能力,國小中高年級生的對話能力,我們有沒有可能把它提升到可以做台語師資的能力呢?"},{"start":8719.711,"end":8733.487,"text":"這個要仔細評估這個都是一個很大的方向但是要做到這一點可能怎麼樣的資源跟各方面但是可以做基本的這些溝通本身應該是最基本的目標啦因為這個也是目前我們已經大概初步的成果那有這個成果以後我們應該是往下進進"},{"start":8736.69,"end":8736.85,"text":"金準運科"},{"start":8752.78,"end":8773.801,"text":"107年有一個精準運動科學的研究專案計劃因為當時奧運結束不久所以大家都非常關注這件事情那當時國科會也編列了一個4年的2.4億的研究計劃那所以讓我們現在在看棒球的時候我們可以知道說那個球現在投到哪一個位置所以是非常的有趣那有提供了學校做這個智能羽球訓練那據我所知"},{"start":8777.123,"end":8804.995,"text":"這個訓練目前好像是已經結束了然後也導入了商業化的使用我現在收到的資訊是這樣現在是商業化的使用但是我希望運科不僅只是要精準還需要到普及所以這樣子的計畫是不是可以落實到更多的基層訓練讓更多的國中小的青少年選手運動員可以來做到這樣子的一個這樣子的科學訓練這可不可行啊"},{"start":8806.779,"end":8822.805,"text":"我想跨部會這要透過跨部會的落地核心的技術這邊發展出來應用這個第一期的運科計畫已經出來而且確實有幫助在某些關鍵的這個運動本身的這個幫忙所以如何變成可能要跟我們要其他各個部會要一起來"},{"start":8823.305,"end":8823.645,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8840.939,"end":8868.152,"text":"合作呢?就像新豐高中這樣子的案例是不是可以找更多的中小學一起來合作呢?報告委員因為二級運課的一個目的真的就是委員所講的要從運動的專業訓練導向全民其實我們這邊的科研都要用實驗的概念在進行所以第一階段在科研的部分都是以特定的學校然後舉的默契之後進行實驗可行安全之後才會做推廣所以推廣應該是下一期的工作這個一定會做"},{"start":8868.792,"end":8886.204,"text":"是第三期嗎?說明還會有第三期嗎?你指的下一期是第三期就對了?我不能保證啦,但是我很期待有第三期對,因為這個部分我們是不是可以來思考把它規劃第三期啦因為你現在那個體育署的計畫他們雖然是有這個運科中心在做可是這個效率實在是目前來說"},{"start":8887.125,"end":8907.917,"text":"每年一千個我們總共現在已經有三萬五千個體育班的學生所以我還是非常希望說我們可以來跟體育署這邊一起來討論讓這個運動也要普及讓更多的小孩可以去用一個比較安全而且比較科學化的訓練不要在養成的過程之中就先受傷這部分我們是不是可以來跟體育署一起討論"},{"start":8909.177,"end":8933.293,"text":"本來就是會跟體育署一起討論那也跟委員報告就是因為我們在做實驗的階段裡面一定要保證它的安全性所以像羽球羽球是用監測器來測量說它到底能不能有效的增進它的一個效率那所以呢在實驗階段裡面其實是特定學校那等到下一期之後就會等到安全商業化之後其實就真的可以普及因為一定要讓它成本降低才有辦法普及"},{"start":8933.353,"end":8936.074,"text":"大學老師在做實驗所以他有特定的實驗室然後在以及到了實驗室以外會有特定的學校"},{"start":8951.522,"end":8951.662,"text":"主席"},{"start":8970.134,"end":8971.574,"text":"體操主要是以次大的唐家宏選手在做實驗對象"},{"start":8989.561,"end":9003.301,"text":"因為剛才是有提到商業化使用啦但是因為我覺得商業化對一般小學來說一般中學來說其實是可能不太有具備這樣子的資源跟資金去做所以我們可能還是要去思考如何提供公益使用的部分"},{"start":9004.358,"end":9005.939,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9054.474,"end":9056.056,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9080.934,"end":9082.975,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9098.859,"end":9099.66,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9116.311,"end":9118.053,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9138.508,"end":9138.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9160.894,"end":9163.557,"text":"本來就這樣講的,我剛應該直接講的,不要再亂講了。"},{"start":9182.013,"end":9185.415,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9199.084,"end":9200.986,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9216.003,"end":9216.484,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9245.826,"end":9246.747,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9276.183,"end":9278.585,"text":"臺灣的高科技產業臺灣的高科技產業臺灣高科技產業"},{"start":9300.709,"end":9301.329,"text":"主席"},{"start":9329.909,"end":9331.33,"text":"7月11日及11日二天一次會議"},{"start":9375.449,"end":9375.709,"text":"吳春成委員"},{"start":9388.697,"end":9388.997,"text":"主委請問你貴庚幾歲?"},{"start":9405.082,"end":9408.586,"text":"我滿60,還沒滿61我52年次所以您的提議很有感有感,已經到了適用的年齡"},{"start":9424.638,"end":9446.496,"text":"這個我們的新內閣出來當然其他幾位有年輕化但是呢我們這一個新的院長65歲65歲那你覺得他65 你想像65歲在你們科技人當中你覺得65歲以後要做什麼"},{"start":9449.163,"end":9474.01,"text":"65歲應該是相當成熟的一個階段如果在美國他事實上沒有退休的很多到80歲90歲所以我們就叫做AI內閣嘛對不對不是AI啦就是有行動跟創新嘛對不對65歲以後能夠帶動行動創新對不對所以你很認同那我們看一下這個是國科會規劃的嗎"},{"start":9476.517,"end":9478.18,"text":"這是大部會,跨部會,但是國科會在主導,對不對?這個是給幾歲以上的人用的?"},{"start":9491.741,"end":9494.642,"text":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":9515.846,"end":9516.146,"text":"這就是去年"},{"start":9545.333,"end":9545.393,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":9568.502,"end":9591.387,"text":"為什麼標題一開始講左座方向的高齡科技產業我覺得非常重要今天講這個事情實在太重要了因為你們車子已經開下去了然後我看了今天的這份報告裡面你們未來科技的一個布局策略跟布局有關高齡社會的還是只有精準醫療而已其他的都一樣是沒有"},{"start":9592.725,"end":9621.564,"text":"阿這個已經講很多次了你看就像這大概就是這個嘛那個普惠科技阿你看他的高齡者的想像的場域就是醫院、養老院、藥局嘛樂齡宅、樂齡大學、社區大概就在這些圈子裡面繞來繞去嘛你們設想他們未來的生活需要在這個圈子繞來繞去吧我告訴你這裡這一些人未來2034年台灣一半的人超過50歲2045年一半人超過60歲整個台灣未來社會就是由這一群人構成欸"},{"start":9622.785,"end":9627.69,"text":"所以不要講那麼大的講最近你們已經預定在做的一個計畫叫做高齡者數位資源獲取平台是不是國科會在主導這件事情數位部大家來看"},{"start":9647.429,"end":9657.547,"text":"我看了以後很擔心我看了以後很擔心你看我們來看就是數位部做的去年的調查"},{"start":9658.752,"end":9677.678,"text":"我們現在有500萬高齡者60歲以上的僅有87.5萬在使用網路還有一半的人沒有網路的使用另外一半的人在使用當中有"},{"start":9679.138,"end":9705.16,"text":"3成多在使用政府的數位資源也就佔整個如果來只有佔17.5%啦80幾%以上沒有在使用那就在已經在使用的當中我們就在想有這個一半250萬人在使用當中只有3成5在使用那這個要檢討原因為什麼普及率不高另外呢"},{"start":9706.081,"end":9734.893,"text":"另外呢一半的人我們就放棄他嗎?氣質不管嗎?這招人數未失能那你有沒有想更多的誘因平台你現在在規劃這個東西嗎?怎麼吸引他們來投入就是要思考的問題那我們看看你們現在做的你們現在做出來的這個高齡學期平台的一個的架構這個架構看起來就已經很可怕了因為你的目標照顧有愛高齡無愛"},{"start":9737.474,"end":9758.784,"text":"這個有夠LKK的目標設定就錯誤啦他是要美好的第三人生啦所以你看你們那個架構就學習資源然後生活資源就叫老人送餐叫車服務社交就是引髮住宅電心然後關懷社區關懷據點就是搞這一些啦真的是這個要拜託這個"},{"start":9762.52,"end":9789.551,"text":"好所以呢基本上我一直在談的就是現在目前我們國科會我們整個高齡科技看到的都還是銀髮需求這裡還是重調一下你銀髮就是黃色這一邊的藍色啦基本上我想我應該沒有誤解你們啦你們把誤色的然後現在現在的人真的就是已經進入到壯世代你才有感因為你也是壯世代所以一聽你一定會覺得你是藍色這一邊的嘛這些才會讓你心動嘛"},{"start":9791.953,"end":9808.645,"text":"這個就是我們現在這個MASL的這個人生的價值層次這一個我們現在說做的就是低層次的生理需求、安全需求直到這個連到愛的需求都沒有尊嚴的需求都沒有上面的所有的需求都沒有你們都做最低層次的"},{"start":9809.065,"end":9813.248,"text":"現在勞動部非常的號召壯士來重返職場那這個是21世紀高齡勞動是主流是非常重要的全世界朝著立方講數位勞動也是主流"},{"start":9836.622,"end":9852.757,"text":"那所以如何讓高齡者能夠數位化這是應該列為國家重大政策嗎應該是國科會重中之重非常重一半人口欸這一半人口這一半氣質不管我不曉得還有什麼更重要的事情"},{"start":9854.321,"end":9874.581,"text":"所以至少啦其實這個大有檢討的必要回去可不可以重新來思考這個架構因為照這個架構走下去我覺得真的是完蛋了國家就完蛋了所以現在國科運業上次我就有跟我們主委提出你們願意做這個需求調查嘛正在進行中啦但是呢"},{"start":9876.409,"end":9892.586,"text":"是不是把這個勞動因為勞動部在談這個再就業那高齡者要進入這個數位就業他所需要具備的能力到底有哪些需求包括資源整合至少這個要先擺進來可不可以我們就在積極的賦農這個部分要加強"},{"start":9893.266,"end":9893.626,"text":"接下來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":9927.204,"end":9927.925,"text":"有請林副主委"},{"start":9935.717,"end":9962.358,"text":"主委好,整個早上大家都非常關心今天派你代打在這裡那本席是覺得,第一個你對這個主委真的是不太關心那包括他去這個行政院院會今天不能來那在行政院院會是一個非常重要的會議那其實據今天我們委員會去了解行政院院會並沒有國科會相關的業務那或者如果現在是有的那就顯然相當重要為什麼你會不知道我們主委去行政院院會開的內容是什麼"},{"start":9963.218,"end":9988.215,"text":"我知道他去行政院院會但是我這幾天非常認真準備要到這個教委會來所以也許有所疏失本市委你這個答案勉強算給你得分喔代表你都非常認真喔但是呢你真的還是要關心一下主委啦因為我們主委在長國科會這段時間我覺得他表現得不錯那每次來教委會這個答詢的時候其實我想教委會的委員對他也是蠻肯定的"},{"start":9988.635,"end":10015.798,"text":"那這段時間我們要關心他呀他會不會是現在心情不好還是這個在貧富當中那又或者是說這個充滿精神朝夕活力要準備到下一個那個部會去那又或者是說這個他現在是非常平淡準備這個不如歸去了那我覺得大家共識這麼久你要關心他呀你不能只關心你自己有沒有來這邊備詢的狀況好不好你覺得本席這樣說你能不能接受我可以接受我回去會特別關心我你會不會改進啊"},{"start":10017.396,"end":10026.019,"text":"關心他一下好不好那他的心情如何我們非常的這個關心他心情如何目前我的理解還是非常積極在做他現在應該要做的事情對那我覺得為什麼要關心他那一方面當然是他過去的表現很好我們也希望那他將來有一個好的出路"},{"start":10034.582,"end":10062.454,"text":"但不論如何我想現在如果國科會目前是處於一種主觀動盪的狀態但我們底下的團隊我們還是要照表超客該做的事情還是要把它做完來那所以我想在這一波的人事當中有人說他應該是不會留任當然也有人說他希望留任下來但是我們現在看起來好像報導上指出有個成大的副校長叫做郭耀煌他出任的機會是最大的您跟他熟識嗎?你覺得他適任嗎?"},{"start":10063.655,"end":10069.077,"text":"政策推動絕對不是單一的人我想主委花很多時間去各界的溝通所以我想這個政策本身的延續性應該是有一定的"},{"start":10089.545,"end":10092.046,"text":"佛祖惠,國科會的業務相當繁重,不管是經創法案、AI基本法、AI運用、太空產業發展等等。"},{"start":10105.151,"end":10107.212,"text":"主觀在動盪,我們的心要穩住該做的工作要把它做好來接下來跟您討論,我想太空產業發展的重要性吳正宗主委曾經說過國家發射廠要在今年年底來選定"},{"start":10121.981,"end":10141.834,"text":"臺東或屏東的使用年限很長不管是地理物理或環境影響都要做全面的考量也要相當未來的一個擴充性所以才這麼久現在到底會在屏東還是臺東與地方溝通的情形這兩個地方有沒有一個進展"},{"start":10143.558,"end":10166.178,"text":"目前事實上在2月6日我們召開第一次審查會了然後對條件評估就如同剛剛委員講你還有很多複雜的比如說在地本身也要說一些溝通所以現在還沒有確定我們現在還沒有最後確定但是事實上有一些就跟主委上次講的那個空間跟物理的限制那意思是說跟屏東跟台東都有並行的進行溝通是這樣嗎對"},{"start":10168.749,"end":10183.265,"text":"對,那第一階段來講的話就是我們的這個發射場的條件在2月6號已經通過但是就是說現在還需要跟地方的溝通在物理條件上面以台灣的東南這個可能性最高"},{"start":10183.345,"end":10188.687,"text":"副主委,這個溝通其實也是溝通很久了啦那因為今天時間也有限我希望本席會議之後您能來說明一下為什麼溝通這麼久到底遇到了什麼困難啊你剛剛所說的這些要點我們都知道不會叫你貿然決定啊但你溝通也很久了所以會後我想來進行一個說明這樣好不好那再來喔"},{"start":10205.113,"end":10208.436,"text":"國科會為了發展低軌通訊衛星編列高達69.4億自行研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星之前太空中心吳宗信主任說預計2026發射第一顆B5G低軌通訊衛星請問副主委現在的進度是不是如期發射?"},{"start":10229.273,"end":10251.24,"text":"目前應該是在這個進度內而且我想補充說明一下它其實不只是第一個衛星的發射還有包含地面通訊設備這個很重要發射去了以後你要整個系統整個完整才能夠如期這樣很好另外據本席瞭解現在我們研發兩顆B5G的衛星本體的部分我們太空中心現在沒有問題但是呢"},{"start":10253.001,"end":10253.921,"text":"請問一下這個消息是不是正確?"},{"start":10273.747,"end":10274.308,"text":"這個消息是對的嗎?是"},{"start":10292.222,"end":10317.93,"text":"沒有錯,是不是?那到底發生什麼情況?為什麼公園院在當初你們這個信誓旦旦的我由公園院做說我們有自行這個做好的能力現在為什麼會這樣?什麼原因?請您講重點這個低軌衛星的這個通訊投載是國內第一次做那公園院承接這個這方面的研發在經驗上的確是比較有不夠的地方所以在時程上面稍微有點延誤"},{"start":10318.717,"end":10337.27,"text":"好 那真的是非常遺憾那所以我想請教一下那現在我們要這個邊境費來採購那採購的進度還有預算那是多少錢 然後進度另外 那你現在因為要兩個這個衛星的這個籌載那你是要先買一個然後另外一個繼續等工研院還是怎麼做"},{"start":10339.662,"end":10357.322,"text":"第一顆衛星我們會先用外購的方式外購籌載的方式來進行目前還在跟廠商研議所以相關的價格跟這個時程還要再跟廠商做研議那第二個部分是供應院的部分會持續再進行只是他這部分會延後到比較後面再去發射"},{"start":10358.257,"end":10378.208,"text":"我聽起來是沒有掌握性啦就是說當初信心滿滿給工研院做當然我們知道很多的計畫它是會有一些變化的那但是呢現在您在這裡碰到這樣的狀況工研院自己研發不出來那我們甚至於現在無法掌握那後續他要怎麼去做那到底有沒有能力做這一點呢我想會後"},{"start":10379.229,"end":10404.068,"text":"副主委還是要來跟本席跟我們教文委員會報告清楚而不是說他現在已經做不出來了我們再給他時間繼續下去可以還是不可以備案是什麼那這個部分的話是不是會後的時候再來跟我們做詳細資料的提供跟說明可以嗎是是沒問題那另外我想再來一個我們要建立完整的太空產業鏈人才的培育是最重要的副主委同意嗎是沒有錯"},{"start":10404.468,"end":10431.715,"text":"沒有錯所以國科會跟我們各部會的合作在112年已經招收太空相關研究所60名的研究班的學生所以今年國科會編列了1684萬6千元的預算要來進行太空相關人才的培訓主委請問一下這個預算你現在計畫上是預計要培養培訓多少太空產業的人才"},{"start":10432.615,"end":10446.78,"text":"目前這是從學校的太空基礎人才那其他還有其實經濟部的比較是直接產業的這個連結還有事實上是教育部的基礎人才都有所以不是只有教育部在這個我非常清楚我現在針對的是國科會1684萬的預算所以你不要講別的地方我相信其他的地方還是有100多位117位左右"},{"start":10454.923,"end":10456.165,"text":"目前112年的學度分學程是117位"},{"start":10473.167,"end":10483.51,"text":"目前你整個計畫我們給你的這個太空基礎人才培育的預算數你這邊寫的1684萬然後要培育1830人本期看到這個數字的時候其實非常讚許大大的讚許我覺得各部會要來向您學習一下是怎麼做的就一個人9000多塊錢我們就可以培養我們太空基礎的人才可不可以說明一下因為這個可以各部會要跟你取經一下"},{"start":10502.375,"end":10522.427,"text":"是,因為那個委員這裡包含我剛剛講的是114科學的基礎科學學分的部分那還有比如說產業的部分也有這些太空產業專班這裡面也有等等加起來還包括其他的這個科普的講座跟其他的這個應用、衍星應用的部分這整整來講加起來那也許我們更應該把那個細節的部分要提供給"},{"start":10522.967,"end":10546.683,"text":"副主委 因為這個數字很簡單啦我相信亮眼的委員來看都知道說這真的是一個神機啊 非常厲害喔那但是我要講的是說我們既然有心要培養太空基礎人才要認真做 不是呢 有一點點預算 然後做一個計畫這樣子是我跟你講做不成的尤其我們培育人才需要時間 需要經費喔這樣子是 我認為啦 是非常不好的所以我們希望 我們"},{"start":10547.463,"end":10548.083,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員再來請范雲委員"},{"start":10575.71,"end":10576.371,"text":"林副主委、陳主任"},{"start":10587.369,"end":10610.252,"text":"委員好副主委早安因為我想面對強震那國科會如何協助科技防災是我今天想問的主題因為我自己其實也做過莫拉克風災的災後重建的研究那當時也感謝國科會的計畫支持所以跟國際學者我們發表了至少有三篇的英文的期刊論文"},{"start":10611.133,"end":10633.681,"text":"所以後來我就在想說其實國科會下面有很多相關的研究我們如何能夠在執行面上更協助我們這個國家從防災到重建的部分至少我覺得當時的研究成果就是好像並沒有機會就是純學術的內容沒有機會能夠貢獻在就是我們的重建的執行面中那就了解"},{"start":10634.741,"end":10635.722,"text":"目前其實在傳統上防災這件事情覺得是一個比較科技跟技術的問題"},{"start":10650.258,"end":10667.946,"text":"在任性防災這個概念整個社會的支持網絡各方面在防災救災的部分是扮演很重要的角色所以我們現在有一個任性防災的專案計畫那裡面事實上也有很多跨領域的人一起來合作所以這個部分事實上我們會朝這個方向"},{"start":10669.847,"end":10670.567,"text":"這也許是副主委可以思考的好不好"},{"start":10700.974,"end":10717.663,"text":"這次發生在花蓮國際上稱讚說我們很有韌性可是以我過去服務花蓮4年有一部分是因為花蓮真的常常遇到震災所以他們相對的準備加上地廣人稀就是相對來講災情雖然還是非常的遺憾有13人罹難然後1000多人受傷如果發生在其他的地方我覺得可能就是說"},{"start":10726.347,"end":10746.045,"text":"所以國歌會有沒有辦法準備得更好是今天我想請副主委想的那當然就是說我有看到你們其實在去年有啟動一個災害防救韌性的科技方案是三年的計畫那有好幾個課題我覺得第一個災防數位轉型那這部分非常好還有風險的評估還有城鄉防災的韌性"},{"start":10750.889,"end":10767.206,"text":"所以針對這幾個部分我想問一個問題因為這次很多人抱怨說警報沒有收到然後後來我們的氣象署是告訴大家說因為預期就是沒有達到標準是低估了"},{"start":10767.947,"end":10795.229,"text":"那這個部分我知道你們的災害防災中心也有在協助我們氣象署的可是我們看了一下就是這其實符合了你們的PWS的警報的發布標準那不知道在你們的協助下為什麼我們一般的民眾就是所得到的這個氣象署的資訊還是沒有警報呢這部分不知道副主委或者是主任有沒有答案我們請主任說明一下"},{"start":10795.829,"end":10814.417,"text":"委員好我想PWS它是由各個主責機關剛剛您提到的七項署它依照我們在2021年5月1號的規定也就是規模五正度四它會發布當然有很多地方很可能很多民眾有很多抱怨我怎麼沒有收到呢為什麼會低估"},{"start":10815.277,"end":10839.21,"text":"就是說他在預估的模式裡頭啊很可能某些地方啊他需要精進的地方所以這部分是氣象署嗎就是說你們沒有辦法再協助他們更精進這個預測嗎當然大家有一起討論啦我會提供一些意見給他們那當然我想這個是一個跨部會啦那但是我們認為國科會這邊下面應該是要有我們全國最優秀的相關的地震預測"},{"start":10840.791,"end":10867.898,"text":"如果它是一個科技估算的問題的話我想國科會可以更積極的跟他們合作那也希望副主委關心這個問題那加強我們相關的研究資源跟能量因為我們這個警報系統是好的可是預測低估就非常的可惜好不好那這是第一件事我想你們既然是說有在協助各部會然後在做預測的工作尤其是災害防治中心就是做這個所以這應該要強化"},{"start":10870.359,"end":10870.599,"text":"2.假消息"},{"start":10889.139,"end":10904.294,"text":"那這裡面我去訂閱了臺北跟新北的相關訊息包含停班停課我想先問也許副主委不知道主任可以回應那當天像新北是那個假訊息的那如果訂閱你們新北的停班停課會收到嗎?"},{"start":10905.996,"end":10932.048,"text":"會收到什麼結果?我想如果他主責單位也就是新北市政府他沒有發布這個訊息我們不會發布所以你們並沒有發布我們並沒有發布那我覺得這樣非常好至少如果訂閱你們的就不會誤解因為我們辦公室有助理差點路上要回家了因為在路上看到說新北停班停課那的確有新北來上班嘛那我想的是說這邊是不是可以考慮再加一個假訊息啊?"},{"start":10933.488,"end":10961.736,"text":"當然就是說這是你們的專業你們可以評估一下因為我這邊有秀出說其實這非常好有這麼多可以訂閱包含台鐵的事故停班停課像我就訂閱了就是地震跟停班停課臺北市跟新北的訊息那這邊如果能夠有一個假訊息的話我覺得會更集中因為像我們假訊息我也訂閱了政府的那個假訊息的部分那如果能夠整合在防災的假訊息中你們可以考慮一下你們的APP要不要加這個部分好嗎"},{"start":10962.056,"end":10985.325,"text":"非常謝謝委員的建議,我們來鼓勵一下,謝謝那另外我也覺得你們的APP就是做得不錯可是宣傳的不夠廣從你們的網站要到這個訂閱中間沒有那麼的清楚那請問一下你知不知道你們這個APP有多少人訂閱呢?158萬,到目前為止158萬,所以佔我們的人口的百分之多少?"},{"start":10987.068,"end":11003.048,"text":"我想啊這個LINE他是一家公司嘛那他提供給我們的是一個公益的帳號158萬我們可不可以測試一下我們現場有訂閱這個在國家災害防治中心的LINE的舉手好嗎"},{"start":11006.163,"end":11026.458,"text":"趙偉好厲害 趙偉有訂閱所以我們現場這麼多資訊充分人都還沒訂閱是不是可以再推廣一下當然我覺得介面還可以再去思考怎麼改善比如說我想要讓我的家人訂閱然後分享的東西都設計得不是非常的清楚相比一下我們訂閱其他的其實還可以更好一點好不好"},{"start":11026.818,"end":11048.161,"text":"因為我想它會是一個非常好的防災的精確的訊息而且有很多的選項那這是好事那可以做得更好那再來這是我剛剛的假訊息問了那最後我也想問這個偏鄉的部分因為我非常關心花蓮雖然我現在服務的是那個桃園的南邊那我想看到這一次包含就是有西寶國小"},{"start":11049.182,"end":11049.222,"text":"主席"},{"start":11072.772,"end":11098.479,"text":"國科會的協助策略目前能做的是什麼那有沒有什麼改善的空間我想整體的偏鄉災防我舉一個比較具體的例子就是比如說這個地震的這個偵測器本身我們已經在前幾年有地震中心直接在比較偏鄉比較小就是東岸本身的學校那中小學的學校就設定因為他必須要在快速之間學校如果學生上課的時候要丟出來"},{"start":11099.119,"end":11126.713,"text":"所以就災防的部分我們會針對特殊的需求去做科技的資源這個部分所以是全國都有嗎花蓮也有它是針對比較特別的就是說它需要這是比較危險的地方因為花蓮本身它是地震非常高這地震中心也許沒關係我們下也許有些資料可以提供給委員這是一個部分那整個重建的策略我們當然是配合整個行政院來做看看在技術上或者是在其他的科研的部分是不是可以去配合"},{"start":11127.273,"end":11127.373,"text":"是,沒問題"},{"start":11153.746,"end":11155.547,"text":"這兩點部分是不是請副主委責成還是防災中心還是其他的部門那在多久之內可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告好嗎"},{"start":11177.844,"end":11177.924,"text":"謝謝范雲委員"},{"start":11207.354,"end":11208.755,"text":"林依瑾 副主委"},{"start":11220.238,"end":11237.435,"text":"今天我想我會排定這個題目針對國家科技發展策略及布局那我想我對於太空的發展更是更為關心那因為我覺得太空發展它確實是一個國力綜合的展現"},{"start":11238.576,"end":11254.125,"text":"那世界各國也有投入很多的資源在太空產業上那既然太空產業那麼的重要那所以本席今天本來就很期待說我們要看到太空中心的主任這個火箭阿伯"},{"start":11254.865,"end":11281.625,"text":"那可是吳主任今天為什麼沒有辦法出席那就是因為他參加了這個在美國的這個太空年會2024的太空年會代表台灣去那我想這個一連串的這些這個跟太空中心的訪團在美國的一連串的行程我想這是對於台灣的太空的發展"},{"start":11282.866,"end":11284.027,"text":"第16次福爾摩沙7號計劃指導委員會會議是39年來第一次台灣獲邀"},{"start":11299.882,"end":11320.154,"text":"中國卻缺席今年中國則是再次的缺席我想台灣民眾或許對這樣的議題這樣的年會相對也不是很熟悉不過這其實就是一種集合全球太空發展的人才頂尖的人才的一個聚集的難得的場合"},{"start":11323.616,"end":11349.172,"text":"我想中國近年來積極發展太空產業我們都看得見美國也相當在意中國的太空產業的發展光是美國對中國太空發展的回應本身這件事情近年來還被成為論文的題目所以美國對於中國的太空發展"},{"start":11350.313,"end":11350.413,"text":"主席"},{"start":11365.585,"end":11393.22,"text":"我想太空不管是科學或是產業它現在已經是一個國際戰略的重要性它牽扯到整個地緣政治跟國家之間的連結那在台灣也把太空中太空本身的一些技術關鍵技術也納入國家的核心關鍵技術這個部分那產業的部分也是一樣就是一定是高度管制的一個領域所以我想說台灣在這個地方一方面發展自己的關鍵技術之外"},{"start":11393.88,"end":11414.269,"text":"也應該要積極參加國際的這個連結因為你只有參加國際的連結在共同價值的這個聯盟之下你才有辦法進入那個最最最最尖端的這個部分的這個這個我想說這個社群裡面那我想這個目前來講我想太空中心或是國科會還有其他各個部會都積極在往這個方向努力"},{"start":11415.171,"end":11433.73,"text":"那中國缺席這個年會我想一定反映出這件事情的地緣政治性那好那剛剛陳培宇委員有提到去年的7月吳政中主委就有特別表示說針對第三期國家太空科技發展長城計畫"},{"start":11436.132,"end":11455.573,"text":"2023年即是去年年底就會提出方案．並且會把計劃時程拉長到2031年當然為了因應低軌的通訊衛星的布陣．以及整個商業化的快速變革去年10月蔡總統也公開表示說．第三期國家太空科技發展長人計劃要加碼．"},{"start":11458.095,"end":11474.926,"text":"無中信主任也有說要結合台灣的半導體的優勢創造整個完整的產業鏈打造入軌的火箭拼個6年7年然後要載著這個台灣的製造的衛星進入低地球軌道"},{"start":11475.666,"end":11499.619,"text":"那開發新領域新產業我們就是最怕沒錢沒人才可是台灣既然資金啊人才都有了年限也拉出來了那為什麼我現在看不到國科會比較具體的工作計畫那沒有計畫那實際做事的人就會被綁手綁腳那在工作上我覺得也安排上也會欠缺穩定性所以想要請問副主委說"},{"start":11500.66,"end":11527.697,"text":"原本去年底就該跟國人報告這個太空發展計畫那到底什麼時候要提出並且送交行政院那我再強調一次計畫時程年限都拉出來了那什麼時候要送交行政院那國科會難道說到了今天還沒有任何的規劃跟評估嗎所以我這樣問好了就是說副主委你認為什麼時候什麼時間點送交行政院會比較適合"},{"start":11528.658,"end":11553.701,"text":"具體的內容應該這個都很具體在溝通那現在當然是跟各個部會的溝通因為很多事的項目執行項目是其他各個部會我想項目的部分應該是很具體的不然不會直接說拉到2031那至於具體的時程部分是不是我們剛剛也回答另外委員說我們要加速那把些具體困難是在哪裡我們應該去加速這個部分那我們是不是有個時程剛剛也可以有個時程"},{"start":11555.299,"end":11555.379,"text":"主席"},{"start":11580.287,"end":11597.591,"text":"那國科會從2018年11月我們就開始推動這個精準運科的研究專案的計畫那協助選手在國際賽事奪牌那我從奪牌的比率上來看台灣的表現確實十分亮眼我們在東京奧運只有68個選手參賽拿下了12名的獎牌那這個獲獎比率高達17.65%我們比日本澳洲都還高"},{"start":11608.034,"end":11629.383,"text":"這除了歸公體育署的黃金計劃以外我真的覺得運科的資源跟經濟功不可沒今年7月底8月初巴黎奧運即將登場我非常期待說我們的運科可以來協助我們的選手表現更上一層樓想要請教是說我們科會跟"},{"start":11631.004,"end":11634.226,"text":"國科會有沒有跟運科中心的資訊來流通掌握到最新的情搜數據運用在科研上來協助本屆巴黎奧運選手?"},{"start":11651.238,"end":11667.505,"text":"我想運科中心是非常重要我們的合作夥伴尤其是在正式成為一個鋼藥計畫的時候這個部分我們更積極了他成立了一個運科中心那我們也事實上積極的不管在資料跟技術的運用部分都有跟他那是不是可以講比較具體的一些項目"},{"start":11668.966,"end":11692.662,"text":"因為運科中心剛剛成立還在建設當中其實國科會的二期運科一期運科已經有相當好的成績如果有人所知道的我們這邊的定位跟運科中心的定位是我們這邊是負責上游的一個科研運科是實際運用在運動員的身上我們這邊的科研成果除了運用在運動員身上之外還會往外延伸到全民這個是我們目前的布局"},{"start":11693.382,"end":11717.77,"text":"OK 那我想現在因為已經進行到第二期的這個精準運科研究專案計畫那我們既然有拿到奧運的門票的項目可是有些卻沒有被納入這個研究項目像社籍啊 輕艇等等啊所以才要請教說那未來我們到底會不會擴大這個研究的項目那預計擴大到哪些項目那後續還會再規劃推動這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":11720.652,"end":11734.329,"text":"因為我們過去是用公開徵求的方式那盧委員所講的如果某些項目是缺乏的我們會主動來規劃這個我們會把它記在心裡對 像說設計我們的成績都相當好那所以這個部分可能來做一些評估"},{"start":11735.47,"end":11744.534,"text":"那我想我們台灣的科技確實是在世界上有目共睹那現在AI的運用在越來越豐富的狀況之下我覺得如果運用到運科上更直接的讓運動員甚至在有運動的社會大眾的這些百姓接觸到AI帶來的便利"},{"start":11754.679,"end":11779.69,"text":"所以我覺得本席很期待國科會能持續掌握運科這個科研然後跟產業界跟學界合作讓運動科學成為台灣的驕傲好不好那我想最後再利用30秒時間就是說我們強調一下我們AI的這個發展跟監管其實相當重要特別是監控管理的部分那所以我覺得怎麼"},{"start":11780.77,"end":11785.954,"text":"補足AI風險的自我控管跟資訊的如實傳遞這是我們要非常的小心的首先我想我當然很肯定那個國科會我們都有採納委員們的建議所以我們有進行具台灣特色的AI對話引擎的開發不過"},{"start":11801.086,"end":11823.543,"text":"這個網路資訊那麼龐雜那我們又受境外勢力的網路攻擊非常嚴重所以要如何確保AI的使用不與台灣自由民主憲政的體制相違背或者如何在前端接受資訊與運算的同時就排除掉台灣政治自由不利的思維我想這個"},{"start":11824.824,"end":11825.284,"text":"臺德部份"},{"start":11839.89,"end":11840.01,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":11867.125,"end":11867.685,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請這個"},{"start":11895.941,"end":11896.843,"text":"林副主委,有請林副主委"},{"start":11909.585,"end":11930.584,"text":"好,我們看這個,謝謝這個還是科技部的時候﹖針對太空發展法﹖還有科技部短期科研﹖探空﹖火箭發射場域作業的指引﹖都能夠因應研究民主的需要﹖包括相關的法律﹖能夠做配合的來修正﹖"},{"start":11931.737,"end":11956.014,"text":"這個要感謝那我們看國科會這個組織法第二條對於國家科學發展技術研究應用政策還有應用的計畫各方面所以國科會非常的重要這個第8條這邊也是特別提到"},{"start":11957.455,"end":11975.394,"text":"因應全球科技快速的發展然後怎麼樣去協助然後你們要聘用相關的這些各方面的人才所以給你們很大的空間這個可以用這個不用公務人員的資格就可以聘用所以要去善用"},{"start":11979.496,"end":12004.912,"text":"當然這個AI內閣在52年之後事實上本席針對原住民族的語言也特別提到這個AI族語AI技術的系統的研發而我本席在去年就開了兩次協調會所以未來如果人民會有需要或是這個需要你們的協助的話也請你們協助好很重要的這個"},{"start":12008.232,"end":12035.346,"text":"國科會過去比較少去這個被諮詢或是主動去參與我們看這個這一次的地震零四零三的地震發生然後這個整個交通我們就講這個北迴鐵路蘇花街蘇花公路"},{"start":12037.045,"end":12061.98,"text":"有這樣的一個狀況而我們這個蘇花改蘇花改是109年1月前線通車那這一次發生地震造成相關的這些有一些人的死亡或者是說這些這個造成交通的中斷主要是在"},{"start":12064.981,"end":12090.849,"text":"還沒有改善的蘇花公路還沒有改善的蘇花公路蘇花改基本上都OK沒有問題所以交通的建設透過科技的配合是可以解決交通的快速然後包括人員的安全但是常常會說到什麼呢"},{"start":12092.796,"end":12093.336,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12114.827,"end":12137.048,"text":"蘇發改109年1月通車總共花了9年的時間施工從施工到通車花了9年我們看這個蘇發安現在還沒有蘇發改完成之後還有一部分是蘇發安因為它是分段"},{"start":12140.46,"end":12167.288,"text":"蘇花改基本上是先做了比較當時比較危險的地方比較危險的先做了也就是比較困難的先做了那蘇花改應該是比較容易蘇花案應該是比較容易的但是呢按照這個期程要花很長的時間要花11年如果按照這個期程的話要花11年"},{"start":12169.622,"end":12195.431,"text":"而且還會拖延今年2月20日環境部環評有意見還要補正比較容易的還有意見這個就是為什麼要在這邊質詢就是要請國科會要去協助環境部然後去說明也是協助"},{"start":12197.682,"end":12220.611,"text":"這個公路總局去說明要說服這些環評的人員和環評的這些委員真的是一個我們看北回鐵路這一次北回鐵路副主委包括我們國科會的所有的官員北回鐵路0403"},{"start":12225.584,"end":12239.174,"text":"發生事後前面檢查停止前面檢查凌晨檢查完畢OK完全沒有問題北威鐵路喔都沒有問題喔北威鐵路什麼時候蓋的這麼早以前的你想想看1980年正式舉行通車"},{"start":12255.618,"end":12284.212,"text":"所以透過這樣的科技的發展是可以解決交通的問題而且是安全的不會受到任何風災地震的影響從過去到現在再怎麼樣的災害都沒有影響所以這個部分我們去講無效了但是國科會去跟環境部跟這些環評委員去講"},{"start":12285.422,"end":12302.581,"text":"會有效,可以嗎?是,我們會盡力配合其他客戶部會的需求提供技術方法。這個是很重要的,當初只有花6年喔!你現在看,1980年代啊!6年啊!而且是最困難的,它是整條線喔!等於樹花紅加樹花改啊,整條線喔!"},{"start":12308.257,"end":12310.118,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這個國科會有請"},{"start":12337.793,"end":12339.194,"text":"林副主委今天的主題是產業發展跟國家科技的布局我想產業發展跟科技布局應該是息息相關副主委不會反對這樣的概念本期過去在當議員的時候曾經去貴單位下轄的竹科管理局做參訪"},{"start":12361.117,"end":12385.813,"text":"根據本期參訪的經驗竹科管理局招商開發租稅都有一定的中央的優惠而且由中央主導,廠房只租不賣的這個模式其實運作的還算非常的成功因為這些特殊的優惠其實是人人呈現的模式某一些層面來講它的招商甚至都是廠商主動希望來跟中央來做合作也會比地方單純要去做產專園區來得順利的許多"},{"start":12387.894,"end":12387.934,"text":"主席"},{"start":12403.297,"end":12428.248,"text":"OK 那本席就要進到今天的第一個主題就是談桃園龍科三級擴大的這個後續這個看起來之前因為有一些政治的一些波瀾本席在那邊講得清楚一點我是反對政治介入也反對用這樣的題目來做政治宣傳但是該照章辦事還是要照章辦事嘛龍科的擴大案它有它區位上的優勢嘛對不對 這個國會不會反對嘛所以現在這個案子有沒有繼續再進行"},{"start":12429.209,"end":12434.422,"text":"持續在研究然後對他的範圍本身也在做檢討那細節是我可以請好簡單說明一下我們有些時間"},{"start":12436.509,"end":12458.797,"text":"這個案子仍然持續在推動我們目前積極跟當地居民溝通那跟市政府也有一定的常常密集的開會跟市政府現在運作、對接、討論還順利嗎?需不需要我們協助協調?應該不需要,因為已經開過三次工作會議順利就好,對不對?如果能夠順利地化解這些土地徵充的一些障礙,對不對?那台積電應該還是有機會回討,對不對?"},{"start":12461.971,"end":12462.512,"text":"副主委覺得有沒有機會?"},{"start":12469.755,"end":12497.021,"text":"好的環境就有機會好的環境有機會對不對沒錯齁因為這個也不是我轟你們啦對不對這個你們在媒體受訪的時候應該也有很清楚嘛所以講說第一個因為抗爭一度所謂的放棄那其實只是誤解嘛對不對還是積極的在做溝通嘛不管是竹科管理局桃園市政府跟地方都在做希望可以把這個事情圓滿嘛可能會稍微縮小一點開發面積去剔除那個人口稠密跟百年老校的這個部分齁但是還是要做"},{"start":12498.601,"end":12518.627,"text":"因為它的區域條件其實是好的如果做得好 做得順利 可以按照軌道進行的話臺積電重新將榮科三期的擴建 列入1奈米新建的考量這也是你們國科會講的現在進行的進度當然前面因為政治爭議 有一點點小耽擱你下面有沒有預計的時間表比如說大概什麼時候取得完土地或怎麼樣"},{"start":12519.127,"end":12520.208,"text":"我們預計5月及7月各召開一場公聽會．9月報酬設計劃．明年起花2年的時間．通過都計、環評等16年就可以來"},{"start":12536.176,"end":12545.303,"text":"所以其實跟你本來預估的時間其實是沒有差對不對?你本來也是抓差不多116年的時候進入正式的土地徵收程序對嗎?當然嘛那過程中有經過溝通對那你前期溝通的完整的時候相對來講後期推動的阻礙就變小嘛所以還是照116年進入土地徵收的程序在進行對嗎?"},{"start":12555.811,"end":12570.633,"text":"好 這個我希望這個大家積極一點因為我想我剛剛講說中央出資的科學園區的模式其實大家都喜歡的也可以符合你國科會做整體的產業科技布局是最符合這樣子的一個政策精神的所以希望就照章進行 好嗎好"},{"start":12571.815,"end":12596.298,"text":"那第二個本席也要藉這個機會來跟國科會來做討論就是說既然我們了解到這個產業園區跟科技園區其實都有缺地的問題那本席在這邊提個概念就我們桃園的航空城其實是有非常充沛的這樣子的一個土地資源那目前優先區就是蛋黃區的部分已經大致完成所謂的用地取得但是除了蛋黃區之外還有蛋白區"},{"start":12597.139,"end":12625.449,"text":"所以本席在這邊做一個考量是不是能夠用中央出資源地方出土地因為現在不管怎麼樣這個蛋白區的徵收本來就會由桃園市政府來照章來進行大概也是在116、117年左右會有一個進度那樣子的土地就不是像農科擴大一樣你要從頭開始去寫計畫而是桃園市政府基本上把前面的土地徵收問題全部處理完之後如果有好的產專園區的用地是不是國科會這邊中央跟地方可以來合作開發"},{"start":12626.509,"end":12648.369,"text":"導引中央的政策優惠．然後讓這樣的土地．可以符合國家對於科技產業發展的需求．國會對這樣的概念的看法是什麼目前我們對可能的土地都有做可行性評估．當然土地的使用的成本各方面．所有其他的部分包括周遭的環境都會納入考量那航空城這個部分應該目前也是有初步的評估"},{"start":12650.11,"end":12669.515,"text":"這段講不清楚對不起我說航空城這個部分我請那個我們局長稍微說明一下好再說明一下航空城因為土地也比較貴啦齁那我們優先龍潭是因為龍潭一期二期就在旁邊嘛對三期一期擴建對廠商來講群聚效應比較好一點"},{"start":12669.855,"end":12693.682,"text":"沒有啦我今天不是講說要選二選一的問題因為你講缺地是全台大家共同面對的問題我認為這兩岸其實是可以並行的那也不一定講說一定是台積電嘛我們有這麼多不同的科技產業大家講說AI等等其實未來有非常多科技產業有發展的這個需求那就配合各個產業用地的區位的優勢啦由中央來做主導來做合理的安排"},{"start":12694.002,"end":12694.122,"text":"主席"},{"start":12713.933,"end":12714.133,"text":"臨附請中嘉賓委員"},{"start":12747.833,"end":12758.382,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府機關長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生．有請林副主委和南科局的蘇局長好 有請林副主委蘇局長委員長副主委早 局長好 來 我們來看一下太空教育資源這個標題錯了"},{"start":12775.978,"end":12790.835,"text":"平東縣政府為了推動太空產業還簽署一個人才培育MOU這個照片是我們周縣長帶著相關的主管到休斯頓去簽署一個MOU包括了民間企業跟人才培育國科會能做什麼 協助地方政府"},{"start":12792.436,"end":12794.998,"text":"請教副主委,太空中心能協助中小學的太空教育嗎?"},{"start":12812.309,"end":12835.06,"text":"我想委員提出一個非常重要就是我們事實上是太空中心跟科學園區這兩個東西能不能夠專業結合在一起來那針對當地的整個需求我想這個應該我們是可以支持的好來我來考一下科學時中我們叫平科時中啦平東科學園區實驗中小學今年要正式招生入學了"},{"start":12835.92,"end":12856.792,"text":"預計招生目前幼稚園、國中小、高中部加起來預計要招生這麼多,超過700人平科時鐘今年招生的時候,你看看這個照片目前平科時鐘還在興建校舍這是暫時借用大人課大的智慧教室看起來是不是很有我們太空時代的感覺"},{"start":12858.171,"end":12858.853,"text":"請問有什麼資源可以導入呢?"},{"start":12867.142,"end":12868.764,"text":"科學園區實驗中學適用教育部所訂定的實驗教育三法"},{"start":12889.704,"end":12907.783,"text":"我之前問過 蘇局長有沒有印象 沒有印象他不是用實驗三法他為什麼不用實驗三法 我們來看一下他是根據什麼設立的他是根據社管條例對 你明明叫做實驗中學可是你是根據社管條例請問教育部的實驗三法 國科會有看到嗎法條上為什麼叫做實驗中學 你要實驗什麼"},{"start":12914.828,"end":12939.753,"text":"你的名稱有實驗中學啊,你要實驗什麼?你又不是用實用三法,實驗三法,你要實驗什麼?你,能不能試著回答一下,從竹科時中開始這個因為立法的背景不太一樣,科學園區設置管理條例很早就在立法,然後他那時候有實驗中學早於實驗三法的實踐啊,好,所以我們要問了,副主委,現在有實驗三法了,實驗校有什麼好做?告訴你,實驗三法有三種"},{"start":12940.453,"end":12963.719,"text":"一個是學校形態的實驗教育．一個是公私立學校委託私人辦．一個是非學校形態的實驗教育．科學時中可以用什麼．可以用學校形態的實驗教育的實施條例．這叫實驗三法．包括目前屏東原住民鄉的．摩爾國小．還有苗栗的玄仁實驗中學．這都是學校形態有功力有勢力．有包括你的師資來源．你的教育理念．你的教學場所．你的課程設計．簡單講"},{"start":12965.859,"end":12987.226,"text":"目前如果科學時鐘可以實現三法．你的課程、課糠．就不受到現有的．這個12年一貫的一個限制．你的師資．也可以不受教師法的限制．這對於後來我們要談的事情很重要．副主委有沒有概念了．有概念了．好那我來往下找．來我們告訴你．什麼叫做創新的科學時鐘．"},{"start":12988.166,"end":13006.682,"text":"其實你們科學職中目前只有兩個地方不一樣第一個你們設在科學園區我們假設來科學園上班的人都非常的科學非常的先進非常的不同第二個因為這些人可能來自很多國家所以他是有雙語部除了這兩點之外科學職中有什麼實驗性質嗎"},{"start":13008.712,"end":13030.418,"text":"沒有啊 雙語不可以啊你有實驗什麼特別的教學教法嗎 沒有啊所以那時候我在教育委員會就質詢了我們希望怎麼樣你除了影進太空課程之外 線上課程有遠距生不限定在評科時鐘裡面的學生你的師資你可以從休斯頓去找老師不受我們目前師資法的規定你可以用海外師來進行遠距教學"},{"start":13031.078,"end":13056.559,"text":"副主委這樣聽起來有沒有覺得有吸引力了就非常具體有吸引力好那這樣只要你責成一件事情國科會能不能將更新的教學方法或內容引進實驗中小學呢就要請你去評估用科學評科時鐘開始來試驗試用實驗三法創新教學方式並導入太空課程你就可以要求我們南科學來做一個這樣的一個評估嗎是我們可以評估局長可以嗎是"},{"start":13057.64,"end":13077.686,"text":"報告委員我們可以評估看怎麼融入這樣的精神來使用那需要跟教育部協調的時候我來協助因為實驗三法學校型態的實驗教育必須有一定的一個規格那我那時候盤點過那個規格目前評科時鐘還差一點點副主委到時候如果請來教育部寫協調您願意一起參與嗎可以"},{"start":13082.008,"end":13104.939,"text":"規格上是因為實驗中學他有學制很多規模也比較大他不是用這個實驗形態的學校不過這個精神我們是可以融入在實驗中學裡面學校形態的實驗教育要有一定的人數規模目前科學之中的招生人數還沒有到達但是因為他未來設定的編制元額是到達的這一點我會來協助由國科會跟教育部共同來"},{"start":13106.079,"end":13112.305,"text":"平刻時鐘成為第一所優先適用實驗三法的科學之中好不好"},{"start":13113.387,"end":13113.987,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13142.128,"end":13165.531,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員好 林副請坐好 我們再來請邱志偉委員邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在我們請蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在我們請何新淳委員何新淳 何新淳委員不在我們再來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":13176.562,"end":13178.666,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請副主委"},{"start":13184.81,"end":13188.394,"text":"4月1日開始漲價這次漲價用電700度以下調漲5%700度到1000度調漲7%1000度以上調漲10%所以總共全台有13400"},{"start":13207.637,"end":13208.097,"text":"臺積電當然要調高最多是25%"},{"start":13237.718,"end":13253.017,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下對於中小廠商影響就很大所以本席要請教在這一次的電價上漲幅度對於我們科研區內的廠商影響有多大"},{"start":13253.958,"end":13276.096,"text":"我們國科會非常關心這個問題我們有做一些簡單的估算這個估算是不是可以請簡單來請做說明報告委員因為那個用電電價調整按照他用電的多少會有不同的幅度當然那整個來看平均幅度還有12.7%對相關的經費我們大概初步估算大概每個月大概會增加大概16億元左右的一個每個月大概16億元"},{"start":13277.938,"end":13295.899,"text":"光光你自己本身科研區裡面 你們所增加的這個也是非常大的一個數字不只是廠家 所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請問那4月份已經漲了 所以我們積極趕快提一個9月份不能再漲啊"},{"start":13296.94,"end":13307.636,"text":"在今年的非常年現在還在院會裡頭就等待要再做協商副主委是不是支持9月份的天價不能再漲"},{"start":13310.072,"end":13329.902,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法我們希望也同時去推動節能輔導跟綠能推動節能輔導當然每一天都要推動嘛長期而講所以在你剛剛說的是受影響嘛那受影響今年要怎麼度過9月份不能再講目前的影響在科學園區裡面應該還是在可控制的範圍"},{"start":13330.802,"end":13331.783,"text":"9月份政府不能在場"},{"start":13345.939,"end":13346.879,"text":"這次強振有沒有受影響?"},{"start":13370.547,"end":13387.724,"text":"盤點的結果怎麼樣水電的部分這次尤其剛剛委員講強調的電的部分這次沒有斷電我們這個部分事實上有雙迴路不能斷電啊你要斷電就事情大條了這個就是穩定性非常重要它的韌性非常重要對這個部分"},{"start":13388.445,"end":13389.365,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13406.03,"end":13406.19,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13430.618,"end":13437.087,"text":"這個在我們進行探盤查的時候跟探權到目前為止都不是很清楚所以廠家很緊張那要怎麼樣讓我們的企業不再探焦慮呢所以副主委"},{"start":13446.139,"end":13468.759,"text":"針對於我們減碳淨零的相關議題你怎麼樣來協助我們所有的科技產業因為2050年淨零碳排這個大家全球的一個目標所以因此在我們碳費的收益比當中我們在新科技的投資當然非常重要"},{"start":13469.46,"end":13492.306,"text":"但是您跟環境部有沒有去協調．未來的比例要怎麼做．把這些碳費的比例．能夠加注在我們這一邊．請做說明我想回答前面就是科學園區本身這個部分．我們很積極去協調．然後協助他們事實上對整個碳費本身．這個帶來的本身的衝擊．跟盤點本身這個我們有積極協助"},{"start":13493.346,"end":13507.211,"text":"那整體來講我們當然也很希望一定程度能夠有足夠的資源來支持未來的進行科技創新那這個部分才能夠長長久久讓整個當然知道所以本席告訴你這個是目標設在那裡嘛那我們要怎麼樣去跟政府談判你們的橫向談判談了嗎有跟環境部談了嗎"},{"start":13514.953,"end":13515.073,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13536.369,"end":13540.813,"text":"還是期許你務必要跟環境部要趕快去談因為現在環境部也還沒有定案他也資料都還沒有完整在這個時間點就是我們最重要的關鍵點你們必須要積極去談他的碳費比例可以多少提撥過來給我們這樣才能夠扶植"},{"start":13559.631,"end":13560.151,"text":"最後一個議題人工智慧AI昨天公佈"},{"start":13586,"end":13609.712,"text":"准總統公布他說是要AI的這個團隊我們還以為這麼非行欸但是不是他是行動TIFA跟Innovation的他是行動跟創新不是你的人工智慧啦所以呢在人工智慧AI的這個這個席捲的全球所以人工智慧法"},{"start":13610.932,"end":13613.754,"text":"政府預計在年底提出"},{"start":13640.552,"end":13641.954,"text":"主委上個月告訴我們說到年底會拿出來,現在的進度呢?"},{"start":13660.454,"end":13672.845,"text":"請做說明各位報告現在進度現在就是除了參考各國的立法的一個內容以外呢我們現在進行的跟業界跟學界在溝通持續在溝通當中"},{"start":13673.626,"end":13673.666,"text":"主席"},{"start":13703.557,"end":13703.977,"text":"政政前委員不在"},{"start":13716.055,"end":13738.515,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有林倩啟、陳冠廷、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":13740.216,"end":13751.763,"text":"3.對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分﹐請相關機關盡速書面答覆報告文會﹐今天議程處理完畢﹐現在散會﹐謝謝各位"},{"start":13767.056,"end":13767.556,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13794.398,"end":13795.759,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13810.866,"end":13811.046,"text":"主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}